fiue godly, and profitable sermons concerning the slaverie of sinne. the mischiefe of ignorance. the roote of apostasie. the benefit of gods service. the christians loue. preached in his life time in sundry places. by that late faithfull minister of christ mr william pemble of magdalen hall in the vniversity of oxford. pemble, william, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a stc a estc s this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) fiue godly, and profitable sermons concerning the slaverie of sinne. the mischiefe of ignorance. the roote of apostasie. the benefit of gods service. the christians loue. preached in his life time in sundry places. by that late faithfull minister of christ mr william pemble of magdalen hall in the vniversity of oxford. pemble, william, ?- . tombes, john, ?- . [ ], ; , - , [ ] p. printed by iohn lichfield, printer to the famous vniversitie, and are to be sold by edward forrest, at oxford : anno dom. . editor's note "to the reader" signed: iohn tombes. 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ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng sermons, english -- th century. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion five godly , and profitable sermons concerning the slaverie of sinne . the mischiefe of ignorance . the roote of apostasie . the benefit of gods service . the christians loue . preached in his life time in sundry places . by that late faithfull minister of christ m r william pemble of magdalen hall in the vniversity of oxford . at oxford , printed by iohn lichfield , printer to the famous vniversitie , and are to be sold by edward forrest . anno dom. . to the reader . christian reader : these sermons were by the godly , and learned author of them fitted for the congregations to which he was to speake , & no doubt intended onely for the benefit of hearers , not of readers . neverthelesse it was the desire of many that they might bee published vpon hope of good that might be done to the church of god by them . there is neede of plaine instructions to incite men to holynes of life , as well as accurate treatises to discerne trueth from error . for which end i dare promise these sermons will make much , where they finde an honest , and humble reader . it was the authors greatest care to handle the word of god by manifestation of the truth commending himselfe to every mans conscience in the sight of god ; as once s. paul pleaded for himselfe . . cor. . . and if that be the property ( which they say ) of an eloquent , and good speaker non ex ore , sed ex pectore , to speak frō his hart rather thā his tongue , then surely this author was an excellent orator , one that spake out of sound vnderstanding with true affectiō . many excellencies there were in him for which his memory remaines : but this aboue all was his crowne that he vnfainedly sought gods glory , and the good of mens soules . it remaines , that these sermons be read by thee with a care to profit , and thanksgiving to god for the benefit thou hast by them , sith they are such talents , as in the vse of which hee requires , and expects to bee glorified : farewell . thine in the lord iesus iohn tombes . ioh. . . iesus answered them : verily , verily i say vnto you , that whosoever committeth sinne is the servant of sinne . to acquaint you briefly with the occasion of these words : their coherence with the foregoing and following verses standes thus . vpon some conference and arguments between our saviour christ and the pharisees with other of the iewes about the qualitie of his person , who and what manner of man he should be ; christ having plainely testified who he was , even the light of the world , that messiah whom they had so long expected : it so comes to passe , that many of the people that were present hearing christ defend his authoritie against the cavils of the pharises , were thereby moved to belieue in him , ver . . vnto these believers christ directs his speach , telling them that it was not enough for the present to seeme forward in embracing & yeelding assent vnto his doctrine . there is more in it then so , if they will proue themselues to be true beleivers and his disciples they must persevere in the profession and practise of his doctrine ( if yee continue in my word ye are verily my disciples ) vers . . now whereas many things might discourage these young beginners from going on further , especially their ignorance of this heavenly doctrine , and with all those manifold sinfull corruptions from which they could not quickly shift themselues , christ for their encouragement adds by way of promise , that if they will hold on they both ( shall know the truth ) vz : the gospell and all the wayes of gods grace in mans redemption by christ , and further ( the truth shall make them free ) vers . . from the bondage of such inconveniences as might keepe them backe from the resolute profession of the gospell , as feare of the displeasure of the pharises and rulers , feare of losse , disgrace and reproach in the world , loue of those sinnes and pleasures wherein they liued heretofore and which now they might be vnwilling to leaue . those encumbrances , which caused many a one to withdraw himselfe from following of christ , our saviour promiseth these beleivers , that if they will be constant they shall haue no power nor commande over them : but that the grace of god in the cleere knowledge of the gospell should make them freemen and set them at liberty from the feare or loue of all such things , as might pull them aside from an holy profession of the name of christ vers . . this louing admonition of christ is very ill taken by the iewes . christ had touched vpon that string that jarred , and they might not endure to be thus closely though iustly taxed for hypocrites and counterfeites , such as were so farre from being true beleiuing disciples vnto him , as that they still continued in bondage vnto their corruption and would be ready vpon every occasion to flie of from christs service . wherefore when christ tells them that the truth should make them freemen , out of a perverse mistake they turne this clause into occasion of quarrell and take great exceptions at christ for calling them slaves and bondmen ( wee be say they , in great stomack , abrahams seed and were never in bondage to any man ; why sayest thou then yee shall be made free vers . . ) those commonly bragge most that may doe least , and yee haue few that stande more stiflie vpon termes of reputation , then those that haue least true worth in them selues . so it is with these worthlesse iewes , who stand punctually vpon points of honour to cleare themselues from that imputation of bodily slauery , which christ layd on them ( as they thought ) when yet in the meane time they are of all slaues the basest , vz servants of sinne and corruption . they said something that was true that they were abrahams children borne of sarah the freewoman , and this christ denied not . but whereas they had said they were never in bondage to any man that was false euen in regarde of their corporall bondage . for their bondage in egipt of old , their captivity for . yeeres in assiria of latter times , and the present subiection of their whole state vnder the yoke of the roman governement was witnes sufficient that it was no such strange matter for a iew to be a bondman . but say they had beene alwayes free from such bodily slavery , this was not that which christ aimed at in that speech of his ( the truth shall make you free ) t w'as spirituall se●vitude vnder the power of sinne which he meant , and seeing they will not otherwise vnderstand him hee declares himselfe in plaine tearmes in this . verse . verily verily i say vnto you whosoever committeth sinne is the servant of sinne ) there are servants of sinne as well as servants of men , and the condicions of those is as bad as of these yea worse ▪ christ makes the comparison in two paticulars . servants must haue no inheritance with the free borne children they may for a while enioy the common benefit of the familie : but at last they must be turned out and the children only divide the inheritance : so wicked men for a while liue together in gods house the church : but when the rewarde of inheritance shal bee bestowed on the children of god these are vtterly throwne out of all , and no part fals to their share . this is expressed , ver . . [ and the servant abideth not in the house for ever but the sonne abideth for ever . ] servants must haue their freedome from a free man that hath power to set them at libertie . so must sinners from christ the only sonne of god , who hath this power and authority given vnto him of bondslaues to sathan and sinne to make them gods freemen . he alone brings deliverance to captiues and prisoners , translating miserable sinners , from vnder the commande of the power of darknesse into the liberty of gods adopted sonnes ; who being himselfe made heire of all things as gods naturall sonne admits vs the adopted sonnes into the fellowship of a glorious inheritance . this is set downe , vers . . [ if the sonne therefore shall make you free yee shal be free indeede . ] thus the servants of sinne are in an ill case sure to be turned out of house and home , except the sonne of god iesus christ shall purchase their freedome and bestow an inheritance vpon them . but what ? were these iewes here such kinde of bondmen ? yea that they were : and christ makes it good in the two verses following by vndeniable arguments . their vngodly practise shewed plainely what master they serued , and by whose cōmande they were ruled , [ i know , saith christ , yee are abrahams seed ] viz. according to the flesh , and so borne of free parents : but yet yee are not freemen so long as malice , contempt of the gospell , loue of the world , bloody desires of an innocent mans death with such like corruptions , tyrannize and beare rule over your hearts as they doe . for why ? [ but yee seeke to kill me . ] a cruell master it must be that will commande , and very slaues they are that will be obedient to do so ill an office as to murther christ. but the reason followes ye doe it ( because my words haue no place in you . ) that most holy , pure , meeke and peaceable doctrine of the gospell , which christ published vnto them could haue no command over their heartes to win them to subiectiō & obedience therevnto : they were engaged to another master & to his word they would obey , not christs , not gods , ve . . which in the next vers . . appeares yet more plainly . ) i saith christ speake vnto you that which i haue seene with my father : and ye doe that which you haue seene with your father ) ( ) i speake vnto you the will of god and you obey the will of the divel . whence it is easie to judge vnto whom ye belong , and whether yee be the children of god free subjects vnder his gracious government , or the children of the divel and slavish vassalls vnder his mercilesse tyrainie . you see now the occasion and coherence of these wordes i haue read vnto you . the scope wherof in breefe is this : to giue these iewes right information of their present condition what it was . they in great errour boasted themselues much vpon their outward liberty while yet they were the servants of vnrighteousnes . wherefor our saviour for their instruction and ours lets them vnderstand that they bee slaues that serue sinne as well as those that serue men : and for this purpose he pronounceth to them and vs this most certaine and vndeniable truth ( verily verily i say vnto you whosoever committeth sinne is the servant of sinne . the meaning of the wordes is plaine if you obserue . what it is to commit sinne what to be a servant of sinne . to commit sinne is not simply to doe any act contrary to the law and will of god : for even the regenerate and most sanctified men in many thing●s sin often , who neverthelesse are not the servants of sinne but are free from sinne and made the servants of god as it is rom. . . in this place therefore to commit sinne [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is to do evill willingly and ordinarily : when men make as it were a trade and common practise of breaking the lawe of god holding on in an vnusuall course of vngodly liuing without remorse & reformatiō , of such christ tels vs that they be the servants or slaues [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] of sinne ( i ) they liue in subiection to the power of their sinnfull corruption , as slaues doe to the command of their masters . sinne rules over them as masters doe over their servants . the maine point of doctrine then that these words doe afford is this . doct. a sinner is a bondslaue , & to liue in sinne is to liue in thraldome . for the more distinct explication of this point touching mans spirituall bondage vnder sinne i desire you to obserue three particulars . the nature of this bondage wherein it consistes . the diverse degrees and kindes of it . the greatnes and grievousnes of it . for the first : the bondage of sinne standeth chiefly in two things in subiection to the power of sinne . in subiection to the punishment of sinne . the power and authority that sinne hath over man is seene in two particulars . in restraining his liberty from doing of good . in commanding his service in all bad emploiments . as a master over his servants canne both bid and forbid them : so the sinne that rules in mens mortall bodies hath power both to restraine them from good and to employ them in evill practises : you shall see both true in their order . . sinne hath power of restraint and hindering from the doeing of good . a slaue is not in his owne power but his masters , hee cannot goe whither he will nor doe what he lifts nor dispose of himselfe as he pleaseth , his service , his goods , his life are all ordered by his masters discretion . so is it with a sinner who is holden in the fetters and chaines of his corruption , he is not his owne man nor can he doe what many times he would . in men that are regenerate and sanctified in part experience yet witnesseth how much they are pestered and cumbred with this sinne that hangeth on so fast about them . how ever the spirit be willing and faine they would doe much in the service of god ; yet the flesh is weake and they are so shackled with it , that for their liues they can make but slow hast in the wayes of godlines , much a doe they haue to keepe jogging on , dulnesse , distraction , hypocrisie , formality and a world of other corruptions set vpon them in every spirituall duty , in every good resolution ; so that when they do best , their work is yet done but to halues . grace is yoked with corruption , when that puts vs forward , this puls vs backeward , in so much that a regenerate man is but halfe a freeman , being alwayes in some sort molested by his corruption in the whole course of his religious conversation , according as the apostle paul in the person of euery regenerate man complaines very pittifully . rom. . . . . but now in those that are vnregenerate this power of sin is much more predominant , whose hearts , affections , vnderstandings , and all in them are fast locked and barred vp vnder impenitencie , rebellion and blindnesse , so that they are holden prisoners of sathan at his pleasure , as the apostle speaketh , . tim. . . sinne hath dealt with those men as wee doe with wilde fowle , clipping their wings that they may not fly away ; or as enemies doe with captiues disarme them of their weapons that they shall bee able to make no shift for their rescue . so hath sin vtterly disabled man to every good worke by putting out the eies of his knowledge , and stripping him naked of all those graces & strength which he had by creation . beside this sinne hath taken away all desire of doeing good , haueing affected the soule of m●n with the loue of all vnrighteousnes , where by it comes to passe that man is well contented to be the servant of sinne taking great delight in his owne shame and misery : vnregenerat men are kept fast in durance , being neither able nor willing to come out of their bondage . in this respect is sinne compared to snares , and netts , and bonds wherein men are caught , and kept fast for escaping , [ i finde saith solomon , eccles. . . ] more bitter then death , the woman whose heart is as netts and snares , & her hands as bounds . thereby signifing the most intangling and inthralling nature of the sinne of adultery , whereinto few men fall that euer get out againe [ i see that thou art in the gall of bitternesse , and in the bond of iniquity ] saith peter to simon magus acts. . . why because for all his seeming profession , he was still tyed to his couetousnes & other vile affections , like a slaue boūd to a post with a chaine . so paul exhorts timothy that he instruct his hearers to the end they might [ come to amendment and recouer out of the snare of the divell , of whome they were taken prisoners at his will. . tim. . . ] and for this cause are sinners in the state of vnregeneration , compared to captiues and prisoners kept vp in restraint , isaiah . . . isai. . . but here you are to note that satan and sinne doe not deale alike rigorously with all : they carry a straighter hand ouer some then ouer others . some they keep in arcta custodi● in close imprisonment . and that is when men by satan and corruption are made so sure and so fast chained , that they cannot goe one step beyond prophanesse and impiety . thus is it with men , that are kepr close prisoners in the darke dungeon of ignorance , or who stick fast in the dirt or mire of beastly , coveteous , and voluptuous affections : in a word those that are giuen over to all vngodly and lewd courses . others there are who are indeed prisoners , but yet they are kept in libera custodia in a larger kind of restraint , or as we say , in free prison . and this is when satan sporting himselfe in the sinne and misery of man holds him in a longer chaine , and lets him goe a good way onward in christianity ; but yet at last fetcheth him back againe when he pleaseth like birds in a larger cage they flutter about , or like birds in a string they make a faire flight vp towards heauen ; but satan when he spies his advantage , that by their fall he may giue some notable foyle to gods glory , and the credit of his gospell , then he twitcheth the string and downe they tumble vnto hell . such are those of which peter speaks . peter . . . . who had escaped farre from the filthinesse of the world , but yet were intangled againe therein . such a one was demas whose coveteousnesse hookt him back from his profession of the gospell to the world . and such was the young man in the gospell , who was come neere to the kingdome of heauen , but he had one legge chained fast to the loue of riches , and that fett him quite back againe . all these haue a kind of liberty , but t' is only of the prison : they walke abroad but ti 's in fetters , or as prisoners in rome vsed to be dealt with , chained to a souldier their keeper that doth accompany them to see them safe returned to their jayle . now you knowe that a slaue who walkes abroad to do his masters businesse , is yet a slaue as well as he that i● chained in the gallie . and so are these still servants and bondmen to their corruptions , how ever they seeme for the present to bee more favorablie vsed . thus of the first point wherein the masterlie power of sinne stands , viz. the restraint from doing the good we should , and sometimes would . now in the next place , sinne hath also . a power of cōmanding all bad services whatsoeuer : a slaue you knowe must ride and runne , drudg and trudg , carry and draw , hew in quarries , digg in the mines , tugge at the oare , labour like horses in a mill , and be put to all the base offices that are to be done . honourable seruices ▪ there be that a freeman , a sonne may bee imployed in : but servants and slaues indure the basest and painfullest drudgeries . so is it with a sinner ; he is at the command of his sinne , as the asse of his driuer , or as the centurions servants were at their masters beck . looke how satan inspires him and his corruption suggests vnto him , so he studies and plotts , so he invents and practises . be it but one sinne that raignes over him , you shall see him euer attendant on that master , as bee it lust , pleasures , coveteousnesse , ambition , he is wholy taken vp in their imployments . he hath nothing to spare from them : no thoughts , no words , no time : weeke day and sabbath day , their businesse still goes on ; nay the day is not enough for the doing of its command . he deviseth mischiefe vpon his bedd , and he cannot sleepe till he haue lay'd a plott how hee may compasse one of his vngodly desires . he will be profound , crafty , and diligent in contriving and dispatching the affaires , which the divell and his corrupt heart haue giuen him in command . for this cause is sinne compared vnto a law , rom. . . because it commands and rules ouer men by powerful suggestions , provoking them to evill . a lawlesse law it is , but fitt for lawlesse men , it prohibiteth all that good is , and enioynes the practise of every euill thing . and hence also is satan stiled the prince of this world , because he hath noe meane company at his devotion ouer whome hee rules as vassals and slaues , most ready to obey his will and pleasure . but will you see what imployment sinne and satan set men about . are they honorable services ? no : the most vile , base , absurd , and vnreasonable offices that can be devised , what will not they command , or what will not one of their servants do against religion , conscience , justice , common honesty , yea and nature it selfe ? let coveteousnes tyrannize ouer him : how basely , niggardly , scraping , pinching and sparing will he be ? how most vnconscionably and vnmercifully will he oppresse , exact , cozen and deceiue all the world , strangers , acquaintance , rich , poore , friends or foes , brother , father and all that may challenge faire and honest dealing ? if lust rule him he will damne his soule , destroy his body , disgrace his name , ouerthrow his estate , vndoe all his posterity for the loue of some base whore . the like may be said of pride , gluttony and voluptuousnes or any such like swaggering lust . yea to goe farther , the godly many times are here besotted , who to satifie some one vnmasterly desire , will hazard the peace and comfort of their soules ▪ disgrace themselues and their profession , vexe the spirite and cast themselues vpon gods sore displeasure . so violent and tyrannicall are these commands of sinne and satan , and so base and servile are we growne in our obedience to them , that we will not stick to do that which in the practise or event of it tends to our owne vtter vndoing . now who would not be ashamed of such a master , and such a service ? nay who is not ashamed of it ? but here is the power of darknesse and the invisible tyrannie of sathan , that whom wee hate yet we feare , and serue : of whom we are ashamed , to him yet we shew our selues obedient . thus much touching a sinners subiection vnto the power of sinne . next follows his subiectiō vnto the punishment of it , which is the sorest part of this bōdage which yet a sinner must surely beare . he is in this respect of al slaues the most miserable : for let him looke which way he will he can see nothing but scourges and scorpions provided for his backe ; the whip , the crosse , the forke aud such like punishments of slaues in old time are nothing to the torments he stands in feare of . no sober houre passeth over a sinners head wherein his heart is not full of slavish and dreadfull terrors , arising from a threefold cause . from conscience , the horrible clamors whereof terrifie his very soule and gripe him to the heart with vnsufferable panges , while it stil cryes in his eare in this ruefull voice [ yet know that for this god shall bring thee to iudgment ] oh this makes him quake and grow pale he is afraide to looke god or men in the face , he shifts & faine would if he could hide his sinnes from the knowledge of his conscience , and both from gods eie . from sathan , who though he now seeme as his master yet he knowes and trembles to thinke of it that hereafter he must be his everlasting tormentor . from god himselfe , whose most furious wrath and vnavoideable vengeance he knows is prepared for him and readie every moment to swallow him for his rebellion . now who coulde eate his meate merrily that must pay such a shot ? what comforts of this life , what pleasures of sin can be sweete which are every moment imbittered with so many woes ? it helpes not a iot that they be for a time deferred : for he is no freeman who though he be not clapt vp in prison , yet cannot walke abroad without feare of the sargeant , the prison , the gallowes , when the country is laide for him , and executions out for him in every place . certainely it is a hell to liue in feare of hell , and as bad as death to liue in bondage for feare thereof all the daies of a mans life . heb. . . yet such is the miserable thraldome of a wicked man , he is everie way in the bryers , being on the one side fast chained to his sinnefull and vngodlie courses ; on the other as surely and certainelie bound to his everlasting punishment . and so much for the first part of the nature of this spirituall bondage wherein it standeth . i goe forwarde to the next point which i proposed to your consideration , viz. the diverse degrees of this bondage : where you are to note that there are two kindes of it . . wilfull . , vnwilfull slaverie . wilfull bondage , is when a free mā is content to be made a slaue , or being by force or fraud made one , is willing to continue one still . such a one was ahab who sold himselfe for a slaue to doe wickedly . . king. . . i will giue the worth of it , said he to naboth when he sought after his vine yard ; true , he gaue the full worth of it , that sold himselfe for a few acres of land . such are all those that commit sinne with greedinesse , who take pleasure in all vnrighteousnesse , who loue the wages of iniquitie , who obey sinne in the lust thereof , who take thought to fulfill the desires of the flesh , with full consent and heartie good will , giving vp themselues to be ruled by the counsels of satan , and their wicked hearts . in which condition of a wretched sinner , you may obserue two things remarkeable . how strangely base and degenerat mans nature is growne , who being a most noble creature , made for the most honourable purposes and services in the world , is now growne so vile and extreamly base , so farre forgetfull of his duty and the dignity of his creation , as to be willing insteed of the free and happy service of god and goodnes , to put himselfe into a most ignominious slaverie vnto divels and vile affections . naturally we all loue libertie & choose rather the losse of life , then of it , and only violence & fraude can bring vs or keepe vs in bondage : but sinne hath prevailed with vs against nature and so taken off from vs the edge of all vertuous and manly resolution , that of our owne accorde we offer our selues vnto it , being put in fetters and manicles by our owne corruptions , yea this slaverie men count their only liberty in somuch that when they be called vnto freedome , haue their ransome offered them , and all meanes of escape laid before them , yet they choose to be slaues still . how difficult a matter ti 's for a man to come out of this bondage , surely he that loues the prison better then his enlargement its pitty there should be any meanes of his delivery , and ti 's hazard if they be sought he wil not accept of them . that servant who in the seventh yeere of his bondage did so loue his master that he would not goe out free , he was by the law to serue his maister for ever afterwarde exod. . . hee that would not be free when he might should not afterwards when happily he would . and so it is with the servants of sinne when once they beare a good affection to their master and are so far bewitched as to hold themselues well apayd with his service . then are their eares nayled fast to the postes and gates of hell , or rather with siser● a nayle is stricken through their temples and at one stroke they loose both life and liberty for ever . so that vnlesse that strong man make a forecible rescue of them out of the hands of these tyrants they doe never escape from this miserable thraldome . vnwilling bondage : as when a man is taken prisoner by the sword in battle , or circumvented by some stratagem or fraudulent guile . such is the condition of godly men many times who by some furious , and vehement assault of temptation are wounded , overthrowne , taken , led away captiue and clapt vp in irons vnder the guard of some strong vnruly lust , or other , or else by some subtle sleight and snare privily laid for their soules haue their heels intrapped in the ginne , and for a while are caught as a prey for sathan . but now during this straightnesse , what sighes and sorrowes doe possese the godly heart ? how tedious aud irksom is this bondage ? how doeth he long till his heart bee againe enlarged , that hee may run the race of gods commandements ? life it selfe is vnpleasant till this liberty be obtained againe . wherfore many a harty prayer is sent vp to heaven dayly to intreate god for his enlargement , willingly doth he embrace all meanes of freedome , gladly doeth he run and rest in him that onely bringeth deliverance vnto captiue prisoners , with the israelites in aegipt he is even weary of his life for the oppression and cruell tyrannie vnder which he is holden , which makes him in the bitternes of his soule cry out vnto god for deliverance frō his heavy bondage . often taking vp that complaint of the apostle rom. . . [ o wretched man that i am , who shall deliver me from the body of this death ] these are the severall degrees of this bondage which was the second part proposed to be handled . i come in the third place to consider the greatnesse and grieuousnes of this spirituall bondage : which will appeare by comparing it with outward bodily slavery . now spirituall slavery is worse then corporall in three respects . in regard of multitude of masters : in corporall seruitude master may haue many seruāts , but for servant to haue two or more masters is a thing vnreasonable and vnpossible ▪ suppose they were both good ; much more if they bee bad . miserable therefore is the estate of a sinfull man , who when he serues fewest serues three at once , his lusts , satan working powerfully in his sinfull corruption , god himselfe . for the first : it may be some one wicked affection is his master , and yet there is worke enough to please that , but when many lusts at once beare sway ouer a man like many tyrants in one citty , lord what combats , broyles , and tumults be there in that mans heart : when pride cōmands one thing , covetousnes another : when vncleane lusts draw one way , ambition another , voluptuousnesse a third , a man had need then to study and take thought for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof , and all litle enough to please these hard and cruell taskmasters . againe he hath another master , and that is satan , who inspires these corrupt affections of mans heart , with much rage and hellish fiercenesse , and is that grād pharoah who setteth al those inferior officers a work , who therefore is called the [ spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience ] ephe. . . ouer whom although he alone may seeme to challenge all power and authority as ouer the only subjects of his kingdome , yet wee knowe that besides both these they haue another supreame and soveraigne lord ( ) god himselfe , against whose governement although they do rebell , yet can they not withdraw themselues from vnder his power and jurisdiction . god is king let the earth be neuer so vnquiet , and the haters of the lord shall be subiect vnto him . he will haue to do with them in spight of their hearts . they feare him as slaues against their wills , both to do his will whilst he vseth them to effect by them his owne most holy purposes , and also to suffer his will in their iustly deserued punishment . thus wicked men are mastered on all hands , and no way free either from sin or punishment . in regard of the meanes of escape : a servant hardly vsed may find meanes to shift himselfe of his master ; it is not so with a sinner ; runne away from his master he cannot : for he beares him alwayes about with him in his bosome , his sinne still keeps him company , and goe he whither he will satan doggs him , stands at his right hand , nay possesseth his very heart , so plying him with temptations and ill suggestions , that he cannot goe a foote from his service . t is true the case is so sometimes with a wicked man that he changeth his master , but seldome comes a better . if he escape the tyranny of one sinfull affection , he falls vnder the command and power of another as bad . so you shall haue a very spend-thrift turne a miserable niggard : but this is only like a prisoner that remoues his bolt from one legg to another , and such exchange is only done vpon compact : he leaues one vice that he may the more freely giue himselfe to another ; so that he changes his master but not his servile condition . some raigning sinne or other will alwayes cleaue to his soule , lie downe with him in his graue , and sinke him downe to hell. and as for the eye of gods revenging justice he sees it open vpon him , to take notice of his doings , and his hand alwayes lifted vp to smite him , trembling alwayes to thinke that he hath no meanes to hide his sinne from gods knowledge , no power to prevent , no strength to beare the heauy stroke of his wrath when it shall light vpon him . in respect of the reward , the world hath scarce afforded masters so without all humanity , tyrannicall and cruell , as not to be pleased with the faithful seruice of a slaue , or not to reward him in some degree of courtesie for his seruice . a sinner is miserable both wayes as he cannot please his master , so he cannot hope for a reward . for take a man that hath quite spent himselfe in the seruice of some one of these imperiall and cruell lords , who hath done all that he can in giving full content and satisfaction vnto them , yet they rest not , there are yet new commands and further injunctions , so that when it seemed , villany was come to the height , and that mens witts and strengths did faile them for further plots and practises , there 's yet a powder plott behind , some new , strange , vnthought of piece of bad seruice to be performed . sinne and satan are restlesse and mercylesse , tyrants neuer contented , still exacting , crying , craving , compelling to new tributes and homages . and now when a man hath worne out himselfe in their seruice , spent his yeares and strength , his wealth and good name , and body and soule , and al vpon them , what is then his reward for this his trusty and true seruice ? a courtesy thinke you ? nay a very hell of vnkindnesse , shame , reproach , misery , and many other punishments euen in this life , but for that other hell damnation , fire , snares , and brimstone , and stormy tempests of gods furious indignation : this is their portion and the guerdon of their obedience . satan did for a while promise faire and performe little , helping them to enjoy some pleasures of sin for a reason ; but this seeming kindnesse was but coloured cruelty , all being nothing but a sweet sauce to make him swallow downe those morsels of poyson , the fierie venome whereof shall afterwards drinke vp his spirit , and inflame his soule with euerlasting burning , foolish men and vnwise that take such paines to be miserable ; but how should it be otherwise , when men are servants to satan ? but rebels against god. in vaine do they expect any other reward for their seruice , then the severest punishment of their rebellion . thus i haue opened vnto you according as i haue bin able , the nature , degrees , & quality of this spirituall bondage of sinne . it remaineth now to make some vse and application of that which hath benne deliuered . vse the first vse shall be for the discouery of a great error in the world committed by men , in iudging their owne and other mens conditions . it is the common opinion of most , that if a man liue out of danger of law , and haue wherewith to pay euery man and keepe him out of debt and feare of the prison , if he can liue vpon his owne and be beholding to no man , if he can set his foote to the best mans in the parish , and be able to make his part good in any suit or quarrell , caring as little for such a great man , as the great man cares for him , if he can ouer-beare his enemies , and trample vpon any that he takes against ; if he can go whether he lists & do what he pleaseth , liuing idlely in pleasures vpon other mens labours ; if he be able to sin boldly , to satisfie any disordered affection without controule , hauing power in his hand to overcome a poore minister , that he shal not dare to reproue him , or money enough in his purse to out-bribe the authority , & seuerity of the law , such a man as this that liues with out feare or care , he is esteemed the only man that leads a free life , and liues at his own command . thus men iudge of others and of themselues , whil'st they looke no farther then that which is outward , appearing to sense : but they must knowe that every freeman in a civill estate , is not a free subject of gods kingdome ; no : there be that feed dainty , lie soft , goe richly cladd , liue lazily , and who take their fill of worldly pleasures in all licentiousnesse , who yet are as arrant slaues as any that serue in a gally . do but turne their inside outward , and you shall see ever whole legions of divels domineering ouer them , pride , covetousnesse , ambition , envie , malice , vncleane desires , with a number of such like black and hellish lusts raigning in their soules , vnder the command whereof they are haled this way and that , in all seruile obedience euen like slaues bought and solde in a market . a vaine thing t' is for these men to bragg of their nobility , gentrie , of the freedome and ingeniousnesse of their education or living . for let them know that a mans honour is his honestie and sanctitie ; his perfect freedome is the faithful , service of his god. he is truly free , gentle , and noble , that 's truly gracious . swearing , lying , gaming , whoring , coveteousnesse , gaping after a few pounds of gold and siluer , foolish loue of gay apparell , restlesse pursute after two or three words and titles of honour , with the like are these the imployments of a braue , free , generous , and noble spirit ? farre be it from any man to thinke so , seruile and base disposition , they be that subiect themselues , to such wicked and vnworthy affections , nor can any be honest , or honorable who hath such masters . this the apostle concludes , rom. . . [ when yee were the servants of sinne , yee were free from righteousnesse . ] and it must needs be a base and dishonest seruice wherein t' is free to be , and to do any thinge saving that which is honest and righteous . wherefore let no man fall into the error of the iewes here noted in this text , boasting much of their freedome and dignitie , because they were borne of abraham , & liued not in bodily servitude , lest they heare also that which christ here replied vpon these iewes [ who so committeth sinne is the servant of sinne ] and againe [ if yee were abrahams children , yee would doe the works of abraham ] vers . . but now [ yee are of your father the divell because the lusts of your father yee will doe ] vers . . vse the second vse of this point shal be for admonition , that each one do make triall of his estate , whether he be the seruant of sinne yea or no ? for which purpose the apostle hath set vs downe a golden rule , rom. . . [ knowe yee not that to whomsoeuer yee giue your selues as servants to obey , his servants yee are to whome yee obey , whether it be of sinne vnto death , or of obedience vnto righteousnesse . ] t' is not the liverie or cognizance of baptisme , t' is not the name of christian , t' is not the outward profession of religion that makes a distinction betweene the seruants of god , and of sinne . we haue a fairer marke to know them by , and that is obedience . this tels vs certainly to whom they belong . he that obeys god he is gods servant , he that obeys sinne , let him protest or professe neuer so much devotion to gods service , yet he is for all that the seruant of sinne and no better . well then the triall is now easie , and requires no more but this , that you bring your thoughts home to your selues , duely considering whom you do vsually seruice vnto , whether god in obeying his holy commandements , or your owne sinfull flesh and satan in following their counsels . doest thou in thy heart serue the law of god , consenting to all the commands thereof as most good and holy , endeavouring as much as possibly thou art able to do whatsoever it biddeth thee , holding a constant resolution to please god in all things whatsoeuer . if thy conscience can truly say yea , then maist thou rejoyce in the honourable title of being the servant of god. on the other side doest thou committ sinne as our sauiour speaks here , that is , doest thou willingly and ordinarily , make a practise of breaking gods holy law , following euery lewd course that satan leads thee to , and giving scope to thy vngodly desires ? yea is there any one particular sinne that raignes ouer thee , wherein thou liuest wittingly and wilfully howeuer thou forsake others ? if thy conscience say yea , then know that as yet thou art a miserable bondman and seruant vnto corruption , hearken therefore in the last place to vse the third vse wherewith i will conclude this point , and that is an exhortation to perswade those that find themselues in bondage vnto sinne to endeuour by all meanes to gett themselues at libertie . to men in prison or bodily servitude , this exhortation were needlesse ; but vnto the servants of sinne , t' is most necessary to vse all perswasions to make themselues freemen . two motiues there are that ordinarily prevaile with all men , to seeke for a change of their present condition , viz. . the ' euill of the present estate in which they are . the good of another whereto they may come : both are seriouslie to be thought on in this businesse , forasmuch as there is no estate worse then the slauery of sin and punishment : nor any better then the libertie of grace and glorie . wherefore let me earnestlie entreat you to bend your meditations vpon these two points . first thinke with your selues how miserable a thing it is , for a man to liue all daies of his life , like a slaue and die like a villaine , how wofull is the case of that poore creature , which is at the command of euery base affection led and driuen hither and thither , according as euery wicked desire and hellish inspiration shall provoke it , wearying it selfe in the wayes of wickednes , and taking a great deale of paines to worke out its owne everlasting miserie . thinke what strange folly it is for a man to content himselfe with a few poore commodities & pleasures , that sinne can afford for a day or two , the very enjoyning whereof do but make him more vnhappy : no man that is wise would buy the greatest of such contenments , for one of the panges of an ill conscience , which accompanie them . the time comes on when he must part with all his delights , and be turn'd out of the world naked of all comfort , grace and favour . this is it that cutts him to the heart , and one serious thought of it quite dasheth all his jollity and contentment , feares are vpon him on euery side , making him to liue vncomfortable because he knowes he shall die vnhappily . but now turne our thoughts on the other side , and consider how happie and glorious the condition of the saints is , whom god by his grace hath set at libertie , from the service of sinne . whether you looke vpon them here in this life in the estate of grace , or hereafter in the estate of glorie , their freedome is euery way blessed and desireable . free they are from the commanding power of sin , being now led by the spirit of christ , and not by the spirit of the diuell : free from the terrors of an euil conscience : free from the terrors of death , hell , and iudgment : free vnto every noble imployment in gods seruice , apt to pray much , readie to here much , able to meditate much , delighting in sanctifying the sabboth , chearefull , forward and willing hearted to every good worke . a blessed estate if we haue either grace or witt to iudge aright of it . i confesse gracelesse fooles haue another esteeme of it : tell them of praying , reading the word of god , singing of psalmes , hearing and repeating of sermons , and keeping of the sabbath ye kill them dead , & rather they had , you should set thē to any the painfullest drudgerie in the world : counsell them to refraine gaming , drinking and ill companie , to bridle their vngodly and naughty affections , to converse with such and such men of godlie and religious liues , and to be coutent to be ruled by reason and gods word . all this is euen as much as if you should put them in the stockes , or clap a paire of fetters on their heeles . let them liue in a familie where all exercises of religion are stricklie obserued , and no libertie given to any lewd practise , they are as wearie of it as a prisoner of the iayle , or one that is in little ease , and they thinke it seauen yeares till they be gone to some other place , where they may liue as they list . thus men of perverse minds , and corrupt judgments censure gods seruice to be no better then a sad , dull , wearisome , and slauish drudgerie . vngodlie men , that thinke theirs no mirth but in madnesse ; no sport but in doing mischife ; no contentment but in pleasing the diuell and wicked lusts , no libertie at all but in licentiousnesse of liuing . be ( i beseech you ) better informed , and knowe that a subiect is a free man though he serues his prince and obey his lawes : a sonne is a freeman although he liue in feare and awe of his parents : a servant is a freeman though he liue in conformity to the lawes of a christian master , and the orders of a christian familie . and so a christian man is then free , yea most free when hee submits himselfe to the lawes of god , as an obedient subiect of his kingdome . this freedome he enjoyes in part in this life , but fully in the world to come , when he shall be perfectly freed from all sinne and miserie , when there shall be no feare of being vnhappy , because no possibilitie of being sinfull . certainly my brethren , if there be in vs any sense of our present miserie , or expectation of the future happinesse of the saints , we cannot choose but sigh within our selues with many prayers , wishes , and longing desires , that we also may be delivered from the bondage of corruption , into this glorious liberty of the sonnes of god. if now ( for conclusion of all ) you aske me by what meanes this freedome may be obtained : i answere briefly , there is no meanes but one , and that is iesus christ. all the libertie we haue is his purchase and from his gift , for as you haue heard , we are bondslaues vnto sin , partly in regard of the punishment of it , partly in regard of the ouer-ruling power thereof . now t' is christ that sets vs at libertie from both . christ by his blood purgeth vs from all our sinnes , by taking the guilt and punishment thereof from vs. christ by his spirit delivers vs from the power and dominion of sinne , that it raigns not in our mortall bodies , hauing sanctified vs by sending the holy ghost into our hearts . for [ where the spirit of the lord is , there is liberty ] as the apostle speakes , . cor. . . so that euery way christ is he that bestowes on vs our manu-mission , according as he himselfe here speaketh [ if that sonne shall make you free , then are you free indeed ] wherefore this only remaines that we should goe vnto christ , seeke and sue vnto him for our enlargment , intreat him to here the crie of a prisoner and captiue , and in compassion of thee to afford his helping hand for thy delivery . pray him to put himselfe betweene gods wrath and thy soule , making peace for thee in heauen , by his bloody and meritorious sacrifice , pray him to send forth into thine heart , the spirit of sanctification , to regenerate and renew all the powers of soule & body , freeing them from that law of sinne which naturally is in thy members , that by the power of that inward grace , thou maiest be able thenceforth to giue vp thy soule and bodie vnto god , as seruants of righteousnesse and holinesse . confesse to him and say : o lord other lords besides thee haue ruled over me , who haue robbed me of all grace , peace , comfort , happinesse , honour and libertie , long haue i liued in greuious thraldome , miserably oppressed and streightned on every side , satan , the world , the affections of sin haue plaid the vnmercyfull tyrants ouer me , i haue binwholy at their command , thinking speaking and doing every wicked thinge they haue suggested vnto me , when i would do any good , euill is present with me and aboue me , and i am hedged with such a world of encumbrances , that i cannot tell which way to get out . now lord helpe me , breake these my bonds , vnloose these cords wherewith i am tyed , free me from this streightnesse , and bring my soule out into a large place . vndoe the works of of the divell , restraine his power , destroy his kingdome , and vtterly overthrow the dominion of sinne within me , be thou my lord and king , and do thou rule over me : let thy word command me , thy spirit lead me , thy power incline me to all subiection vnto thee . bid me doe what thou pleasest , and make me doe it , forbid me what thou dislikest , and keepe me from doing it , perswade me by faire meanes , and if stubborne force me by fowle , exercise ouer me all the authoritie of a father , of a master , of a king , of a god. i submitt me to all and am content by any meanes to be ouer ruled , so i may become a faithfull seruant in thy house , and an obedient subiect of thy kingdome . this my seruice is my freedome , this freedome is my happinesse , and for mee to bee thus free and happie is thine honour . nowe therefore take vnto thee the glorie of all , and except of my service who hast purchased my libertie : vnto thee o christ i owe my soule , much more my obedience , i yeeld thee both and all that i haue or can doe , take all , command all , protect , sanctifie , and saue all . finis . hosea . . . my people are destroyed for lacke of knowledge : because thou hast reiected knowledge , i will also reiect thee , that thou shalt be no priest to me ; seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy god , i will also forget thy children . these words containe a short declaration of the miserable estate of the church of israel in the daies of the holy prophet , when the people they were ignorant , the priests they were negligent , both were growne monstrously wicked , and all were l●kely to bee out of hand most severely punished . the partes of this verse are two . the sinne and punishment of the people ; their sinne is ignorance , want of knowledge of god , his worship and service ; their punishment is destruction , or cutting off ; partly by temporall iudgements the sword , pestilence , famine and captivitie ; which for their ignorance with other sinnes should come vpon them ; partly by spirituall and eternal iudgments in their certaine condēnation in hell fire . [ my people are destroyed for lacke of knowledge . ] the sinnes and punishment of the priests who are in the next place particularly questioned as chiefe authors of that ignorance which was among the people : their sinne is , that : they reiected knowledge and forgot the law of their god : the latter clause giues vs the meaning of the former : the law that was prescribed vnto the priests the sonnes of levi is expressed deut. . . [ they shall teach iacob thy iudgements and israell thy law ] & yet more fully , ma● . . . [ the priests lippes should preserue knowledge and they should seeke the law at his mouth , for he is the messenger of the lord of hosts . ] this then was the covenant that god had made with the sonnes of levi ; that besides the offering vp of sacrifices for the people ; he should provide for the instruction of the people in matters of religion : for which purpose they are enioyned . . to haue the knowledge of gods will for themselues , that the law of god might be sought at their mouth and knowledge preserved in their lips . . to be readie and carefull to teach the same vnto the people ; so farre as concerned their duty to know and practise . now at this time these priests had forgotten ▪ i. e. broken the covenant of levi ; and transgressed the commaundement which god of old had given to the priesthood : being guilty of a double fault . . ignorance that they were not themselues men of knowledge , such as were skilful and learned in the vnderstanding of the law able to informe others : but were as the pharises and scribes in after times , blinde leaders of the blinde . . negligence that they tooke no care in teaching the poore ignorant people according as they were bound by their office : both these faults are signified vnto vs when the prophet saith [ that the priests had reiected knowledge , ] meaning that they were ignorant themselues , and negligent towards others : they had no knowledge for their owne part , or if any , yet they despised to teach it to others . a fault no way to be tolerated in such men : & therefore in the next place you haue their punishment ; which is conformable to their sinne : they would not doe their dutie , god would discharge them of their office ; they reiected knowledge with scorne and loathing of it , ( so the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) god with as much disdaine reiects them from being priests vnto him : they had forgotten gods law , god would likewise forget them and their posteritie , leaving them without reliefe when their deserved shame and misery should come vponthem . which fell out accordingly at the finall destruction of the kingdome of israell , when priests and people fared alike and were all carried away into perpetuall captivitie ; where they and their posterity remained ever . doct. the words being thus in briefe opened to you , out of them i commend to your observation this generall point of instruction ▪ viz. ignorance in matters of religion bee it in whomsoeuer is a hatefull and dangerous sinne . if it bee in people 't is naught , if in ministers 't is much worse , in whomsoever it be 't is a sinne wherewith god is highly displeased and which he wil one day seuerely punish . that the truth of this may appeare vnto you i shall endeavour to vnfolde vnto you the qualitie and danger of this sinne a little more at large : because as ignorance is a common fault , so men haue a common opinion that it is a very small offence , scarce any at all , you will iudge otherwise , if you will duly consider of it in these three respects . . the nature of it . . the causes of it . . the effects of it . . for the nature of it you must knowe that ignorance is a foule blemish of mans nature ; a want of that perfection which should be in vs , if matters were now with vs , as whē god created vs , we were made after gods image , and a singular part of that image was our knowledge , and the most excellent part of our knowledge was the vnderstanding of all divine matters touching god and goodnes , so farre forth as it was needfull for vs to vnderstand them . now nature it selfe that hath planted in every one an vnmesurable desire of knowing much , leades vs also to iudge how incomparable an ornament it is , where it may be attained . when wee thinke vpon the infinite knowledge of god , or vpon that excellent measure of knowledge in the angels and blessed saints departed , or in adam in his innocencie , none is so stupid , and dull as not to admire it in them and to wish for the like in himselfe , so farre as he might be capeable of it . in which case when we looke backe from them to our selues , who can choose , but hang downe his head for very shame and griefe to see god , and these blessed creatures inhabiting in so glorious a brightnes and light somnes whilest himselfe dwels in darkenes compassed about with a blacke night of ignorance , errour , and obscuritie : he seeth as much difference betweene himselfe and them , as between him that travailes by the cleare sunne-shine and one that walkes by a candle . knowledge is like the sunne in the world , or the eie in a mans face : nothing would be more rufull , and dismall then the world without the light of the sun , nor is any deformity in the face more notable then the want of an eie : and certainely there is nothing more vglie to behold , then that soule which is darkned in its vnderstanding through blindnes and ignorance , being destitute of the knowledge of god , of christ , of grace , of religion ; the knowledge whereof is both light , and life vnto the soule . in the next place let vs consider the causes of mans ignorance , and they are two , both very bad according as the effect . the first is adams sinne from whose fall this naturall corruption and weaknes is derived vnto vs. hee sinned , and we in him : both are punished among other great losses ; with the losse of those glorious abilities of our vnderstanding part . it had once a power and large capacity to comprehend all things both naturall & divine : but at this time a very great weakenes and dimnesse of sight is fallen vpon it in discerning naturall things : and for the knowledge of god and spirituall things it is growne even starke blinde . hence then is that first bond of ignorance which wee may call naturall and invincible . naturall , because every sonne of adam brings it with him into the world by the course of his generation and birth : forasmuch as every one is borne weake-sighted with this infirmity and disabilitie in his vnderstanding . therefore in infants there is more then ignorantia purae negationis : for being sinnefull , ignorance is a part of their originall corruption , and so t is also , pravae dispositionis , they not only know not by reason of age ; but are ill disposed to know by reason of the disability of their sinfull nature . againe this ignorance is tearmed invincible or vnavoidable , because the naturall man alwaies continues in it , and cannot by his owne strength ever get out of it : but only by the helpe of gods spirit outwardly affording the the meanes of holy knowledge & inwardly inlightning the minde to vnderstand them aright as the apostle sheweth . . cor. . . . our owne sinne viz : wilfull rebellion in neglecting and despising all holy meanes of knowledge : when meanes are not they seek not after them , when they be offered , they refuse them , or vse them with al carelesnesse and disrespect : when men winke against the light , closing vp their eies that it may not shine id their hearts : when they will none of wisdomes instructions , but stubbornely say to god , depart from vs , for we desire not the knowledge of thy waies . hence is that other kinde of ignorance which we call , affected , a fouler fault by farre then the former : when men know nothing and yet scorne to learne anie thing : they will not heare , nor conferre , nor read , nor pray , nor vse any meanes to get knowledge , but are content to sit still in darknes , as the egyptians were sometimes forced to doe , not stirring one way or other . a miserable condition , but i shall tel you the reason of it : they abide in darknes , because they are loth to see and to be seene . should they come abroad in the light , their manifold deformities and abominable corruptions would be discovered by the light of the word to their shame and griefe : they should meete with many reproofes of their lewd courses , many perswasions to piety and obedience : all which they can by no meanes endure , it is death to them to heare of their faults , when they are resolved not to amend them : and they will be wilfullie ignorant of that , which being once knowne would often trouble their consciences . this reason of mans wilful affected ignorance , christ giues , ioh. . . . [ light came into the world , and men loved darknes rather then light , because their deedes were evill : for every man that evill doth , hates the light , neither commeth to the light lest his deeds should be reproved . ] these are the causes of this ignorance , originall corruption disabling vs to know , actuall stubbornesse and frowardnesse , making vs vnwilling to know : wherefore ignorance must needes be ill , that hath so ill causes , where the roote is rottennesse , you can looke for no fruit but corruption . . come we in the third place to the effects of it & you shall see it is evill and hurtfull in that regard also . the fruits of ignorance are two . . sinne . . punishment . . sinne . ignorance is a sinne it selfe and it is a cause of many sinnes : there be mother sinnes and this is one of them , a fruitfull mother not of devotion , as blinde papists would haue vs belieue , but of iniquitie and impietie . an ignorant man is a wicked man ; an ignorant priest is a wicked priest , an ignorant people a sinnefull people . t is plaine by this very chapter . [ there is no truth , nor mercy nor knowledge of god in the land ] saith the prophet , ver . . what followes thence , why this [ by swearing and lying , and killing , and stealing and c●mmitting adultery they breake out and blood toucheth blood , vers . . againe , [ israell doth not know , my peopled th not consider , ] saith the prophet isaiah . chapt. . v. . what of that they might yet be devout , and holy might they not ? no : read the complaint that followes therevpon , ver . . [ ah sinnefull nation , a people laden with iniquitie , a seed of evill doers , children that are corrupters , they haue forsaken the lord , they haue provoked the holy one of israel , they are gone away backward ) see the fruits of ignorance whereby men become apostates from god , wicked in themselues , & corrupters of others : for so it is , they that know no good themselues haue yet knowledge enough to teach another to doe evill ▪ nor can this bee otherwise : for as much as where the heart is evill the life wil be wicked . now an ignorant person is devoide of grace . so saith the apostle touching the gentiles , that they were [ strangers from the life of god through the ignorance that was in them , because of the blindnesse of their harts , eph. . ● . ) that is , they were destitute of all sauing and quickning power of gods spirit , they had no grace , no faith , no feare ; no loue , no true affection to god or any spirituall goodnes ; they had neither care nor desire of that they knew not : whence ver . . followes immediatly their lewd liues in that [ being without sense ( of goodnes ) they gaue themselues vnto wantonnesse , to worke all vncleannes even with greedines . ] for what will not a gracelesse ignorant man doe , who knowes not , but he may doe any thing ? he is blinde and cannot choose but stumble at every blocke , dash himselfe against every post , tumble into every ditch : he is a ship without a master that runnes at adventure with any winde , vpon any rocke or shelfe . it is christs comparison , ioh. . . [ he that walketh , in the darke knoweth not whether he goeth ] and so is an ignorant man , he travels in the night : hee cannot see his way before him , he misseth at every turning , hee must leape hedge and ditch , and yet stil the farther he goeth , the more he wanders . no good worke he takes in hand but hee failes strangely in the performance , in everie course of his life hee goeth astraie through his great folly , and before he is aware runnes vpon a thousand snares and temptations , the divel hath set for to take him . you see then ignorance is an occasion of manie sinnes : but in particular let me giue you warning of two speciall faults that ignorant men vsually runne into . inconstancie in religion whether it be in opinion or practise , for when men take vpon them the profession of religion believing ; and practising many things , but are not able to giue an account of their faith , nor tell any sound reason why , vpon what grounds , to what end they do such and such things : can it be expected , but that if these bee strongly sett vpon and put to it indeed , they will be drawne without much adoe to change their minds ? we knowe what the apostle speaks of those silly women , who were alwayes learning , and yet neuer came to the knowledge of the truth : they were the fittest to become a prey vnto false teachers and deceavers ▪ who creeping into their houses & hearts , by cunning insinuations deluded them , and led them captiue to any erroneous opinion or practise . . tim. . . . among vs , my brethren , in these times wee haue to blame men as well as women for this fault . the intolerable ignorance of most is sufficient witnesse to all the worlde , that there are not a few whose religion is yet to choose , and for ought they knowe to the contrary , another may be as good as that which they professe for the present , they be protestants in shew , but they knowe as little what belongs to true religion as they doe of popery : they bee no more able to distinguish betweene true religion and false , then an infant betweene the right hand and the left . and therefore if at any time a priest , or iesuit , or other cunning papist set vpon them , they are straight way puzzled and staggered : they haue nothing to answere in defence of their religion , but you shall see them presently fetch 't ouer with fine words , and halfe perswaded to be of another opinion : yea did not ciuill respects & temporall incōveniences beate them off from poperie more thē the knowledge or hatred of such errors as papists maintaine , there is nothing could keepe them in that case from revolting vnto their side . it is a needfull point , my brethren , to be thought on by vs , & that seriously , especially in these evill daies , wherin satan and his complices doe on all hands assault the church of god , seeking to swallow her vp . our brethren abroad are in sore affliction , yet they forsake not their god , le ts pitty them , and pray for them , that they may continue faithfull even to the death , for our selues at home , god he knows we are as sinfull a people and haue deserued as sharp a triall as our neighbour : let vs pray still for the life and safetie of our king , the peace of our church , the welfare of our state , and let each one looke to his owne particular walking in the light , whilst we haue the light getting knowledg and wisedome , & faith , & zeale , that we may stād fast in the profession of gods true religiō , whatsoeuer danger may betide vs. this of the first fault of ignorāt men ▪ the second followes . securitie or senslesnesse in regard of sinne or punishmēt an ignorant person knowes not what it is to sinne , and therefore dares commit it , hee apprehends not what punishments belonge to sinne , and therfore he makes no scruple of them : hee sees no danger before it comes : & so he feares it not : when punishment comes vpon him he knowes not why or from whome it comes , t is with him as with ephraim , hos. . . [ strangers haue devoured his strength and he knowes it not : yea gray haires are here & there vpon him , yet he knowes not ] many markes of gods anger are vpon him , yet he knowes & apprehends not by whome , or wherefore he is smitten . you shall haue many a man pine away in his estate , vnblest and vnthriuing in all his businesses crost with vngratious and disobedient children , vext with evill servants and vnfaithfull , troubled with an vnquiet & discontented familie , tormented with vniust suites in law , slandered in his good name by false reports raised of him , yea disquieted in his soule with griefes and feares : yet mark this man in all his vexations , & you see him sensible of nothing ; but present paines : he thinkes of nothing lesse then of gods hand and his owne sinne in all this : god smites him for his covetousnesse , vncleanesse , prophanesse , vnbeliefe , atheisme ; with the like notorious sinnes he liues in : but the ignorant wretch never considers of this , nor doth he any iot the more either turne to god that punisheth him , or from his sinnes for which he is punished : he toiles & moiles , rides and runnes vp and downe , tries now this way , then that , entreates one , bribes another , after all complaints of his hard fortune and ill successe in all his affaires . and yet see in the middle of all this trouble he sinnes as much as euer he did , he sweares , he drinkes , and consens his neighbour as much as euer , he is as irreligeous as he was before , not any dutie of religion performed by himselfe or with his familie more then at another time ? no ; he keeps his old wont & ventures on still in his evill courses , hoping that times may change & matters amend one day . if he can but make any shift to escape the present smart ; that is all that he lookes after . thus is the condition of many soules , who doe evill , and are plagued yet doe evill still : because they be besotted , & haue not the wisedome to see their sinne , or feare their punishment . thus much of the first effect of ignorance viz sinne , the second followes . . punishment : [ my people perish ] which is partly in this life , partly in that which is to come . in this life god often plagues them , and puts them to shame . this was one cause of the captiuitie of the iewes as it is esay . . . [ therefore my people is gone into captiuiy , because they had no knowledge ] they seldome escape here : but hereafter they are sure to smart for it . ignorance is the highway to hell : and ignorant men , though they cannot choose but wander , yet they cannot goe so farre wide as to misse hell . it is the apostles sentence . thess. . . christ shall shew himselfe [ in flaming fire , rendring vengeance vnto them who doe not know god ▪ &c. ] god will be strange to them in that day , who are now strangers vnto him . he will not know them then , who will none of his acquaintance now : they say to him , depart from vs we will not know thee , he shall then say to them , depart frō me , i know you not , they that know not gods waies , shall never enter into his rest , they liue and die without his feare & out of his fauour . those that are blind will certainly fall into the ditch , as it is math. . . except god doe in time open their eies , to see the danger and preuent it . these things thus explained , before we come to make application of the point ; it will not be amisse in our passage , to touch briefly vpon two questions needfull to be resolved . the first is . whether ignorance of a mans dutie , doe in any sort excuse his not doing of it ? to this i answere in briefe : ignorance in those things we are bound to know doth not excuse a fault committed by reason of it . the reason is manifest , because one sinne cannot excuse another . now in this case it is first a sinne not to know our duty , because we were bound to know it : and then it is a sinne not to doe our duty , because we also ought to haue done it . and though wee are so farre from being excused , that we are in a double fault , and deserue double blame , for being ignorant & disobedient ; neverthelesse this must be observed ; that a sinne committed through simple ignorance is not so great a fault as that which is committed through wilfull ignorance or against knowledge . he that sinnes against his knowledge is a notorious and presumptuous offender and deserues severest punishment according to that of christ. luk. . . [ that servant that knew his masters will and prepared not himselfe neither did according to his will , shall be beaten with many stripes ] and also that of s. iames c. . . . [ to him that knoweth how to doe well , and doth it not , to him it is sinne ] with a witnesse , a great sinne greatly to be punished . againe he that sinnes out of willfull ignorance , because carelesly and stubbornly he neglects & contemnes all meanes of knowledg that are afforded him , this mans fault is not a iot lessened but aggrauated by his ignorance , nor , hath he any excuse in the world for his ill doing , who might if it had pleased him haue knowē the way how to haue done better . but now he that sinnes out of simple ignorāce , where there is no froward , scornefull , careles neglect of meanes of knowledg , this mans sinne is somewhat lesse then the others , yet t is a sinne still . this is manifest by that of our saviour luke . . . [ he that knew it not , yet did commit things worthy of stripes , he shall be beaten with few stripes ] he shall be beaten though he did it out of pure ignorance , yet but with few stripes , & that because he did it ignorantly . soe paul some what excuseth his pesecution of the church , because 't was done out of an ignorāt zeale : but yet foral that he accoūts of himselfe as he was , even at that time a very great sinner . ( i was saith he a blasphemer , and a persecutor , and an oppressor : but i was receiued to mercie because i did it ignorātly through vnbeliefe ) . tim. . and in like sort doth the apostle peter somewhat qualifie that great sinne of crucifying christ the lord of life : wherevnto the commō people and many of the rulers ignorantly consented , being misled and ill advised by the priests , pharisees , & other malitious enemies of christ. [ and now , brethren , i know that through ignorance yee did it , as did also your gouernours ] saith peter to the iewes . acts. . . soe much also our saviour implies in that speech of his to the pharises , who proudly arrogated to themselues all knowledg ( if yee were blind yee should not haue sinne ) had they indeed been simple and ignorant , their sinne in persecuting christ , & opposing the gospell , had been much lesse hainous . ( but now yee say , we see , therefore your sinne remaineth ) vnexcusable , vnpardonable whilst against their knowledge , they malitiously despise and his doctrine . iohn . . . this of the first question ; the opening whereof confutes the sillinesse of many ignorant mē who think verily because they haue no knowledg , that god will hold them excused for their good meaning sake . the second question is . what measure of holy knowledg is required of each one ? for answere herevnto , you must put a difference between mens abilities , and gifts of nature or grace : & also between mens callings and diverse imployments . for the first , al men are not alike qualified with inward abilities ; there is not the same fastnesse of memorie , quicknesse of apprehension , soundnesse of iudgmēt in one , that is in another , nor haue all the like benefit of outward helps in their education , for the perfecting of such good parts , as nature hath lent thē . now god deales equally , where he bestows much there he looks for much againe ; where he giues little , there he requires but little . he that naturally is slow of witt , dull of conceipte , short of memorie , weake in iudgment , such a one would bee pittied and louingly helped forward so farre in knowledg as his weaknesse will giue leaue . and men shall doe ill to lay heauie burdens on those , to whome god hath giuen but weake shoulders to beare them . but when men can shew witt enough in other matters , and haue all abilities of minde to serue their turne in inferior imployments , to apprehend , discourse , plott and contrriue matters as they list , and yet the same men , be dunses in all religious knowledge , they are inexcu●able , and must answere for their vnthankfulnesse , & misimployment of that talent , he hath giuen vnto them . thus there is a difference in regard of mens abilities : there is also a difference in respect of mens diverse callings . god doth not require the same measure of honour or knowledg of a lay man , which he doth of a minister , of a plaine man , & of a scholler , of a privat person ▪ and of a publike gouernour . here the rule is that god requires of every one so much knowledge , that he may know how in his place to carrie himselfe in all wisedome and vnblameablenesse . he may not come short , nor yet goe beyond his bounds , but duly considering what belonges to his place , he must studie to be throughly informed thereof , moreouer this must be obserued in generall touching all men , of whatsoever calling or gift : that no man can attaine to any such degree of knowledge , that he should therewith rest himselfe cōtented , & seeke no farther ; the wisest know but in part , & they may know more perfection is to be sought for , but it wil neuer be had in this life , & therefore mē must be stil striuing in the knowledg of god : schollers must studie still , ministers preach , people must heare still , all must grow richer in this treasure of spirituall wisedome . in a word no man must cease learning , till god giue ouer teaching . and know this that the man , who bewailes his ignorance , & daily searches after knowledge , in the vse of good meanes , he shall gaine this advantage , first the little knowledg which he hath shall doe him much good , & then in due time , his stock shall encrease according to that promise [ to him that hath ( & vseth it well ) shall be giuen ( more ) & he shall haue abundance ] let thus much suffice to be spokē for the vnfolding of the nature of this sinne , come wee in the last place to make application of all vnto our owne vse . the first vse shall be for reprehension of ignorant persons , whose fault is here declared to be great , and their condition miserable : which notwithstanding , there are in the world many patrons of this sin , who both in opinion and practise defend this sinne and approue it . i shall name vnto you two sorts of them . papists , who make a direct profession of this shamefull sinne : with them the best way for a man to doe his duty is not to know it at all : and no devotion is comparable to that which is blind , nor any service like that which is beastly , and vnreasonable . let an ignorant catholike that canne reade never a letter , nor vnderstand scarce a fillable in the creede , lords prayer , ten commandements , or other part of his catechisme , let him yet hold fast by his ghostly fathers sleaue , doe as he bids him , come to church , and heare latine service , reade latine prayers , doe he knows not what , yea any thing the priest commands him , and then they 'le warrāt him cocksure , from falling into the ditch , be he neuer so blind . let paul finde fault with zeale without knowledge . rom. ▪ . . t is no matter what he saith , the 'ile contradict him to his teeth , and tell vs as they teach their people , that ignorance is the best mother of true catholike devotion . in which impudencie some haue gone so farre of late daies , as to erect a new order of friers , whose very rule , & profession was ignorance of all things except christ , and the virgin mary . it is not possible that all things , should haue come to this passe amongst them , were there not knaverie in the businesse . but the truth is this , poperie is one great part of the kingdome of darknesse , and for the support hereof , it was needfull to shutte out the light , for feare of discovering their secret abominatiōs . if their deeds were good why doe they hate the light ? if their opinions were sound , why are they afraid of scripture ? 't is selfe guiltinesse breeds those feares and iealousies , and that atheisticall slander of gods word , that the scriptures are obscure , that the reading of the bible will make men hereticks . in short , the best construction we can make of their practises in this kinde is , that they mistrust poperie would downe , if people had but knowledge to see their villanies & errors : they see the credite of priests & fr●ers would downe , who now be the only admired oracles of knowledge among their ignorant people , & which is more , those slow bellies , and evill beasts , see 't would cost them much paines , and toile to bring their people to knowledge , after so long neglect of that course , wherefore they sit still , grow lazie and fat , whilst their people is well enough content to be vntaught , & so to perish in their ignorance , idolatry , and superstition . protestants amongst whom we haue a number which are papists in their practises , what ever they be in their opinions . among vs many there be that haue left off to vnderstand and doe good as it is psal , . . men of ill liues , of ignorant minds , that out of carelesnesse or contempt profit not one iot , either in knowledg or obediēce of the gospel . this is a raigning sinne that spreads farre and wide ouer all quarters of the land , a killing sin that ●laies thousands of soules , which fall daily into the pit & snare , before they are aware that evill is toward them . 't is the grand factor for hell and that , wherin the divil hath ever laboured by deepest polices to keepe men from knowledge ; either that they might not haue the meanes , or not profit by thē , when they had them . what shall we say , my brethren , to the lamentable ignorāce amongst people : shall we excuse it ? 't is not possible . for i demand in the apostles wo●ds . rom. . . [ haue they not all heard the gospell ? noe doubt the sound thereof hath gone through all the land● , and the words thereof vnto the end of the earth ] all meanes of knowledg haue been plentiful amongst vs , preaching , catechizing , printing , and all these for a long time , sixtie yeares and vpwarde , so that one would thinke now all might know the lord from the greatest to the meanest : and if ever in any , now in our country mightbe fulfilled that of habakkuk c. . ( the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glorie of the lord , as the waters couer the sea ) if in any particular place meanes haue beene scant , and the people haue had but little instructiō , ill may they thriue with their idlenes , by whose negligence gods people haue perished for lack of knowledg . and if any such heare mee , let them be entreated in the bowels of christ iesus , to haue more pittie and compassion on the poore soules , which goe astray , as sheepe which haue no sheepheard . but , my brethren , you must know , that this excuse will not serue the turne , neither if ministers wil not teach , we need not learne ; no ▪ if they will not , seeke where thou maist , and doe not thou throw away thy selfe , because another is careles of thy safety . but of all what excuse will they haue , who haue beene borne and bread vp in parishes that haue had preaching almost time out of mind . here one woulde thinke in regard of time & meanes , men might be teachers rather then learners : but 't is nothing so . here also shall you meete with hundreds that had need be taught their very a. b. c. in matters of religion : 't is no marvaile to see children or young mē ignorant , when you shall haue old men . . yea years old , whose gray haires shew that they haue had time enough to learne more witt , yet in case to be set to schoole againe for their admirable simplcitie in the knowledg of religion . they 'le scorne to be questioned , but doe but get them in a good moode and talke with them about religion , aske them the meaning of the articles of faith , of the petitions in the lords prayer , or of other cōmon points in catechisme , and marke their answers , you shall see them so shuffle and fumble , speake halfe words , and halfe sentences , so hack and hew at it , that you may almost sweare they speake they know not what of matters out of their elemēt : though they be the wisest and craftiest headed men in a parish , take them in other matters ; yet in these things , you would thinke verily they were borne starke naturals and idiots : they will sometimes shape you such strange , absurd , and vnexpected answers to your questions that when a man cannot choose but pitty them , he hath much a doe to forbeare laughing at them . let me tell a story that i haue heard from a reverend man out of the pulpit , a place where none should dare to tell a lie ; of an old man aboue sixty , who liued and died in a parish , where there had beene preaching almost all his time , & for the greatest part twice on the lordes day , besides at extraordinarie times . this man was a constant hearer as any might be , & seemed forward in the loue of the word ; on his death bed being questioned by a minister , touching his faith and hope in god : you will wonder to heare what answere he made : being demanded , what he thought of god , he answeres that he was a good old man : & what of christ , that he was a towardly young youth : and of his soule , that it was a great bone in his bodie , & what should become of his soule after he was dead , that if he had done wel he should bee put into a pleasant greene meddow . these answeres astonished those that were present to thinke how it were possible , for a man of good vnderstanding , and one that in his daies , had heard by the least two or three thousand sermons , yet on his death bed in serious manner thus to deliuer his opinion in such maine points of religion , which infants and sucklings should not be ignorant of . but , my brethren , be assured this man is not alone , there be many hundreds in his case , who come to church and heare much , happily a hundred sermons and a halfe in a yeare : yet at yeares end , are as much the better for al , as the pillers of the church against which they leane , or the pewes wherein they sit . a matter greatly to be lamented , and sharpely reproued , that wise men , politicke men , graue men , great men , rich men , men that carrie the name of christians , should yet be such very children in all godly knowledg . wherefore in the next place let this be for exhortation . vse to ministers , that they would be carefull to teach the people : if people perish for want of knowledge , shall ministers escape who are negligent in teaching ? be sure of it , both smart togither , they for their ignorance , these for their negligence : such ministers haue their doome in my text [ because thou hast reiected knowledge , i will also reiect thee . ] the people shal indeed perish in their sins , but their bloud &c : whose office it was to instruct , admonish , reproue , entreate , and by al meanes to turne the people from their evil waies . oh that such men would be pleased to consider , that the best service they can doe , the greatest honour they can attaine vnto , is to be faithfull labourers in gods vineyard ! what an honour and happinesse is it to a man , to be made a common blessing vnto all men round about him , to be eies to the blind , legs to the lame , a mouth to the dumbe , a staffe to the feeble , a physitian to the sick , a counsellour in hard cases , a watchmā in danger , a captaine in conflicts , so much and much more is a minister vnto his people , if he doe his duty as he ought . and vnworthy they are of that office , who scorne to take the paines that belongs to it , or thinke it an easie , or small matter to saue a soule from death . but happily i speake to them that heare me not : wherefore the next exhortation is . to people , that they would take notice in themselues of this foule sinne to amend it . some men are ignorant of this like men in the dark , thinking themselues faire , because they see not their owne deformities ; come now then into the light ; looke on thy selfe , see what an ignorant wretch thou art , bewaile it , repent of it , amend it . be ashamed in your selues , of that which you are ashamed of , when any man takes notice of it , blush at your ignorance , and heare what the spirit of god saith to you , pro. ● . . ( how long ye simple ones will ye loue simplicitie &c. ) if a man cal you fooles and simple persons , you 'le be angry with him , now god calls you so , be angry with your selues , be ashamed of your selues that god should stil call you simple , scornful , foolish , because ignorant , disobedient men . say now in thine owne heart , how foolish , how brutish haue i beene ? how like a beast , nay how much worse thē a beast haue i liued ? the oxe knoweth his owner , the asse his masters crib , but i haue not knowne or considered ought ; surely i haue not in mee the vnderstanding of man : what folly and simplicitie is this in me , to know any thing , but what i should know , god and his goodnesse , my selfe and my dutie ? how many sermons haue i heard in vaine ? how often haue i discouraged my minister making him weepe and sigh in secret to see so little fruit of his ministerie . ignorant i was when he first came to the parish , & now after many yeares am ignorant still . i see young men yea little children can giue a better reason , yea answer more soundly to points of catechisme thē i can . think thus with thy selfe , and then grow into resolution to take a new course , begin to doe that which is never too late to be done , to know god , and which waies thou maist worship and obey him , resolue to take all opportunities , to spare as many houres as thou canst for the purchasing of this heavenly wisedome . and least that here also thou shouldst plead ignorance : that thou wouldst get knowledge if thou knewest which way , hearken a little to some directions . the meanes whereby knowledge will be gotten are these . hearing the word of god preached : this is the chiefe meanes wherevnto you must giue all diligent heede , god hath appointed it for this end , to the instruction of the ignorant , and it goes accompanied with his speciall blessings to that purpose . wherefore sit not at home , lie not a bed , when thou shouldst be at church : come and come often , especially on the lords day , and in the weeke too when occasion serues ; spare an houre for a sermon as wel as two for a play , or a feast , idle chatting , or doing nothing . when thou comest to church , come with a mind to learne , set thy selfe in good earnest to heede the preacher , marke what doctrine he delivers , how he proues , how he applies it . keepe the point he speakes of in thy memorie as he goes along , and if thou be short witted , helpe thy selfe with thy pen ; gaze not , sleep not , talke not , thinke not of this and that businesse , fixe thy eies vpon the preacher , and thy thoughts vpon his words , and be sure so to carrie the matter that something may bee gotten by an houres discourse . but there is another thing to be thought on in the second place and that is . meditation , a duty every way necessary after hearing : men thinke they haue done enough , if they sit out the sermon and hearken attentiuely whilst the preacher is in speaking : but as soone as the preacher hath done , they haue done too : they neither thinke , nor speake more of it , every man sortes himselfe with his friend and companion , and then in church or church-yard , or as they goe home , an hundred idle questions be asked and answered about this man , and that , this busines , and that , this bargaine , or that , but not a worde touching any thing they heard at church : so that by the time they come home , the soules of the aire haue picked vp all the seede , that laye scattered , and carelesly vncovered , the sermon is quite fled and gone from their minds . come to them and clappe them on the shoulders , and saie now for a wager where was the preachers text , what remember you of the points hee discoursed of ; they can tell you no more what hee saide , then the man in the moone . my brethren , i beseech you take notice of this fault , and thinke of it , as that maine cause , why there is soe much preaching and hearing , and yet people doe still remaine as ignorant , as wicked as euer . here 's the cause , the preacher doth his part , they wil not do theirs , they heare the sermon at church and there they leaue it , but never carrie home any thing to make it their owne by often meditating on it . wherfore remember henceforth that a sermon is but halfe heard , that is only heard from the preachers mouth . the greatest part is yet behinde to be performed by thy selfe at home . goe home then , thinke of it as thou art in the way , thinke of it when thou art in thine house : take time to recall things to minde , do it with thy familie , do it with thy selfe ; in thy closet , vpon thy bed , say such a sin was reproved to day , am i , haue i bene guiltie of it ? such a dutie was vrged vpon me , doe i practise it or no ? such a grace was commended vnto me , haue i such a grace ? such a rule was prescribed me , doe i follow it or not ? if men would be perswaded to make triall of this course , thus to digest what they heare , they should finde ( as others haue done ) a plentifull increase of sauing knowledge in a shorte time , whereas now they thriue not a iot , by their daily hearing many yeares together . . conference with those that are able to giue vs resolution in difficult cases : or with those that desire it from vs , a point wherein men are generally defectiue . obserue all the discourse of men when they meete together , not the hundred parte is touching religion : you shall haue a table sometimes furnished with as choice men as meates , men of learning , iudgment , and experience in all kinds , able much to benefit others that are present , by seasonable and fitting discourse . yet t is strange to see two or three howers eaten vp , and nothing spoken to any purpose , for which a man may say when he is gone , that he hath bene the better for their company . as for ordinarie meetings , 't is so that it is scarce good manners , to moue a question of divinitie , for feare of marring all the mirth , if you doe , you are like to answer your selfe to your owne question , they are presently mute as fishes , and haue not a word to say . a great dinn there was before and much chat : but such a question is like a stone hurld in among a companie of frogs , that make a fowle noise , but vpon the fall thereof they are straight as still as may be . this is a fault , but not the greatest in this kinde : we will not restraine conference to tables ; there be other places , that are happily more fit , the ministers house , the learned mans studie , hither people should resort to enquire and be resolued in points of knowledge , and practises that doe concerne them . but how long shall a minister sit in his studie , before any of his parish wil trouble him about any such matters . lawyers & phisitians are thronged with clients and patients at all houres , day and night , for aduise about matters of body and estate : but who knockes at the ministers doores calling for his helpe for their soules ; s r tell me how shall i vnderstand such a place of scripture , make me to conceiue such a point of diuinitie , advise me how shall i get such a grace , avoyde such a sinne ; such a temptation ; what were i best to doe in such a case of conscience . ministers i am sure complaine much of the backwardnesse of people in this point , not that they loue to be sought to , or look for a fee , but because they seeke their peoples good , and would gladly take all opportunities , to encrease knowledge in them , whose ignorance they cannot but pittie and commiserate . wherfore my brethren , learne a point of wisdome , to take notice of all doubts , and when in reading or hearing thou meetest with any thing thou vnderstā lest not , keepe it in minde till thou mayst haue a fit occasion to get a resolution . where ever thou commest be not ashamed to minister occasion of good discourses , that others may be the better for thee , and thou for them before yee part . priuate reading of the scriptures , and other bookes tending to godly instructions . a course if duelie obserued that would bring a great deale of knowledge , especially in this our age , where the presse is as fruitfull in good bookes as the pulpit is of good sermons . no booke of scripture but you haue the exposition of some learned man vpon it , no point of divinity , but you shall finde it largely & plainly handled in some treatise or other . a great blessing to this age , if men would be wise to make vse of it , but the trueth is , men haue as little regard of printing as they haue of preaching . looke to the ordinarie sort of people ; they doe not reade scarce one chapter of the bible in a weeke , i may say in a yeare , so ignorant , that they can hardly finde the booke whence the preacher takes his text , or how to distinguish betweene apocrypha and canonicall scripture . how many are there of good sort & fashion that haue read much , and many great volumes , which yet cannot say at eighty years old , that in al their life they haue read ov●r the bible . a booke that is none of the biggest , but is of all the best . what can we pretend for this monstrous negligence ? canst thou not reade ? blame thy freinds and parents for the time thou wast a childe ; since that blame thy owne folly . any one may learne to reade , that hath wit to learne any thing . but thou hast no money to buy bookes : what ? hast thou mony to spend in a taverne , to play away at cardes & dice , to buy lace and needlesse superfluities of apparell , and hast thou not monie to buy a bible ; or any other good booke ? for shame say not so . but i haue no time to read ; for any thing else time enough , to doe nothing , to lie a bed till noone , to sit two or three houres at dinner or supper , to goe to such a friend and there spend halfe a day , to such a freind and there spend another , to doe any chare that comes in extraordinarily . away with those excuses ; 't is certaine , my brethren , there is no calling be it of never so much employment , but of twenty foure hours , they may if they list spare two at the least for religious imployments : yea more if they bee wise and thriftie of their time . but i cannot buy all bookes , nor read all ; nor would any man haue thee doe so : but buy some , read some , canst thou not tell which are best and most profitable ? then aske counsell of the skilfull , that are able to advise thee . but learning is a hard matter , and 't is not for plaine folke to vnderstand the bible . no ; is it not ? then god is too blame that hath written a word for the instruction of all , which yet none but schollers should vnderstand : but know this is nothing but an excuse for thy slothfulnes , learning is hard , because thou art vnwilling to learn : otherwise the spirit of god hath testified that knowledge is plaine , and easie to him that will vnderstand . and doe but trie , taking but that paines in the studie of religion , which thou doest in many needlesse imployments : and experience shall tell thee , that wisedome is to be found of all that doe seeke her . and yet my brethren because the well is deepe , and you may plead , that you haue not wherewith to draw : let mee tell you in the last place of one meanes more to get knowledge , which blesseth all the forenamed helpes , and that is . prayers vnto god , that he would giue thee an vnderstanding heart , to know the mysteries of salvation , that he would open thine eies , to see the wonders of his law . that light which is in thee must come downe from the father of lights , and vnlesse still thou meane to sit in darknesse , thou must haue recourse vnto god , praying him that he would shine into thy hart to giue thee the light of the knowledge of the glory of god in the face of iesus christ. and remember this that he who seeks for the knowledge of matters of religion , by the strength of his owne wit and other naturall parts , without humble and faithfull supplications for gods assistance in this behalfe ; such a man is in danger to be misled into manie erroneous and hereticall opinions : for if in any thing , much more in the matters of religion is that most true : he that is a scholler vnto his owne reason , hath certainelie a foole to his master . wherefore we are to put on an humble and sober minde , intreating his direction , & submitting our reason to his wisedome . now my brethren doe these things and prosper , haue an eare open to heare the word , a heart readie to meditate on it , a tongue seasonablie to talke of it , an eie diligent to read it , and with all these ioine heartie praier , that thou maiest vnderstand it aright ; and then be thriving and succesfull in holie knowledge : though thy tallent be as yet but small ; yet follow this course , and after a verie little paines and patience , thou shalt see for certaine , that this traffique will returne thee ten for one , even a large increase of all spirituall knowledge . the gaine whereof shall bring much glorie , to that thy heavenlie master that set thee on worke , and to thee his good and faithfull servant , a bountifull rewarde for thy labour . finis . heb. . . . take heede least there be in any of you an evill heart of vnbeliefe , in departing from the living god , &c. the words containe in them a serious exhortation to perseverance in the profession of the gospell of christ. the occasion is from the comparison which the apostle makes betweene moses and christ , and betweene the church of the iewes , and of the gentiles vnder christ ; moses and christ agreeing , in that both are faithfull to him that appointed them in the ex●cution of their office : but they differ , in that moses is but a seruant in the house of god , christ is the sonne , moses gouerned as a delegated officer , christ rules as a soueraigne lord of the church , the house which himselfe hath built , hauing purchased it with his blood , rear'd it vp with his spirit , preseruing it by his power , therefore he is justly lord of it as of his owne , and so he hath the preheminence aboue moses . the church vnder moses and vnder christ , what ever difference there be in other matters , yet in this they are in one , and the same condition , that as there reverence was required vnto moses , so now obedience is required vnto christ. it was to no purpose for the iewes to plead they were moses disciples , the peculiar people of god , chosen of him , graced by him with so many favours , if yet in the meane time they hardened their heartes , and would not heare gods voice ; but provoked him by their idolatries , murmurings , & other disobediences , tempted him through infidelitie , and despised his word , and marveilous wonders wrought among them . in this case no priuiledge coulde helpe them , they shall surelie smart for their disobedience , and if god may bee believed vpon his oath they haue displeased him so much , that they shal never enter into his rest . the verie same thing the apostle applies vnto christians , they are the church of christ , members of the bodie of christ , partakers of his benefits , and graces , but it is vpon this condition that they shew themselues faithfull in the obedience of the gospell of christ , [ his house we are ( saith the apostle , ver . . ) if we hold fast the confidence of reioycing of the hope firme vnto the end ] perseverance and faithfulnesse is that which makes men true members of the church of christ , whether iewish , or christian : if the iewes be vnbelieving and rebellious , they come shorte of the land of canaan in the type and substance too ; if the christians be like them in their sin , their punishment is the same , & they are excluded also from the heavenly rest of the people of god. wherefore the apostle in the next chapter presseth this exhortation vehemently . that these hebrews to whom hee writes should carefullie looke to themselues , that they were not as their fathers of old , vnfaithfull and disobedient in their profession thereof , least they become also like to their fathers deprived of all benefit from promise in christ. take heede therefore brethren ( saith he ) that there be not , &c. this is the occasion . the parts of the words are two . an admonition , to take heede of apostasie , or backesliding from religion , which is here described . . by ' its nature , it is a departing from the living god , the fountaine of all goodnesse . . by ' its cause , that is , an evill heart of vnbeliefe , a wicked minde that beleeues not gods word . this admonition is directed in common to all the hebrewes that professed , the faith , because among a multitude , many are hypocrites , and those that are sound hearted had neede to be put in minde , and admonished of their frailtie . wherefore the apostle saith , take heede least there be in any of you an evill heart , &c. a remedie , to prevent apostasie , that is expressed , ver . . viz. mutuall exhortation to constancie in godlinesse . [ but exhort one another ] ministers the people , and the people him , and themselues mutually . this duetie is amplified . . by the properties : it must be frequent , dayly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 even everie daie , vpon all set occasions , it must be constant , holding on till the end of this life , [ while it is called to day ] i. e. so long as grace is offered and danger to be feared , which is , till our liues be at an end , so long are often exhortations needfull to vphold men in their constancie in religion . . vrged from the danger that comes by the neglect of it , that is hardnesse of heart , [ least any of you be hardened , ] the cause whereof is the beguiling nature of sinne [ through the deceitfulnesse of sinne ] which by degrees steales away the heart from god , and settles it in the obstinate practise of impietie . doct. you haue the words and the plaine meaning : i come to some instructions for our practise ; the first is this . that , infidelity is the cause of apostasie from religion . infidelitie is that which keepes men from entring into the church of god , and it is that which throwes them out againe when they are entred . the iewes to whom the apostle writes , some of them had resisted the gospell , and put it from them by vnbeliefe , others had embraced it , whom the apostle here calls brethren , and before , ver . . holy brethren partakers of the heavenly calling in charitie , so stiling them , who in visible profession had received and followed the doctrine of the gospell . these the apostle exhorts to sinceritie and faithfulnesse , warning them to take heede , that there be not a canker at the roote , that would in time destroy the whole tree with his fruits , namelie , an vnbelieving heart that woulde in time destroy the whole tree with his fruits , that would in time make them apostataes from the religion of christ , which for the present they professed . the doctrine then is plainely afforded by the text ; wee shall endeavour to make it plaine vnto you , . by expounding the tearmes of it . . by shewing the reason why one followes of another . by apostasie [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] for the worde is meant a departing or going away from that which we formerly stood to , and followed : for the matter , we vnderstand hereby in short , the forsaking of true religion in the doctrine of it , or in the practise : for it must be noted that men become backsliders from religion two waies . by leaving the trueth of doctrine and giving heede to lies , contrarie to what is revealed in the word : when men fall into atheisme , and make a jest of religion : or runne to iudaisme from the gospell to the law ; a point , wherein the hebrewes were apt to be seduced by false teachers zealous of the law , or when men slip into any heresie overthrowing the faith , or those that cannot rellish the water of life , but drinke deepe of the wine of fornication the impoysoned doctrine of antichrist , such forsake the fellowship of the saints , goe from god and his church , leape out of the arke into perdition . by leaving the practise of religion , and godlines , when men professe their assent vnto the trueth of the articles of faith , and so retaine the forme of godlinesse , but denie the power of it , being disobedient and wicked in their liues , when men keepe their faith and haue lost their conscience ; they could sometimes haue saide and haue done too , but now they can talke , heare & study about religion : but while their eares , tongues , and braines are busied , their hearts and their hands are idle . both these are apostates from god equally & alike , there is not the dust of the ballance to boot betweene the worth of a true belieuer , and a false belieuer if both be wicked liuers . an honest infidell will hold weight with a wicked christian. and a sober papist is as good as a drunken protestant ; nay better , inasmuch as it is better to glorifie god what way soeuer though in a false faith , then to dishonour his holy name wherewith we are called by an vnholy conversation , yea so foule a corruption of so holy a profession must needs much more shame his life , making it ten times more odious to others and damnable in it selfe . wherefore heresie in opinions and wickednesse in practise , both fall vnder this tearme of apostasie from religion . and as he hath no religion at all that denieth the verity of divine doctrine , so , he hath no religion to any purpose that holds the truth , but denieth obedience to it . for what saith s t iames [ if any among you seemeth to be religious and bridleth not his tongue , but deceiveth his owne heart this mans religion is in vaine . iam. . . ] hee reades vs a lesson in the next words , which men in his time , and likewise now will hardly learne , viz. that true religion stands in the practise of a holy life , as well as profession of divine trueths [ pure religion and vndefiled before god and the father is this , to visite the fatherlesse & widdow in their afflictions , and to keepe himselfe vnspotted of the world ver . . ] wherfore they are apostates from religion that relinquish either the doctrine or the practise of religion . this of the first tearme , in the next place by infidelity or vnbeliefe , we meane a withdrawing of our hearts from resting wholly vpon the trueth of gods worde ; nowe in the worde two thinges are proposed vnto vs to bee belieued . all manner of doctrines or articles of religion to bee firmely believed and mainetained , against all heresies and false doctrines . all sorts of commandements , threatnings , and promises tending to the direction of our practise , which we are to belieue and embrace against all counsels , terrors , or allurementes whatsoever , tending to draw vs from obedience in our liues . both these are the obiects of true faith whereby men yeeld assent vnto all doctrines , commandements , threatnings , promises of god , not only as true and good in themselues , but as better and truer then any thing in the world that can be set against them , whence in all perswasion vnto errour , in al temptation vnto vice , true faith resting it selfe on the word of god winnes the victorie , and overcomes the world : but where this is wanting , an easie way is left to all heresies , and impietie , &c. thus for the explication of the tearmes of this proposition : let vs see the connexion of them together , how apostasie springs from infidelity : the reason is , because there is no other grace , that hath the proper office and power , to vphold a man in the constant embracing of all holy dueties , and constant practise of all good workes , but only faith ; and therefore where that is not , men must needes fall away from both . that such is the force and vse of true faith , you shall see by considering the obiects of it . all divine trueths to be held and professed in matter of religion , which are aboue our naturall and corrupt reason ; and therefore vnlesse our vnderstanding bee by a true faith captivated vnto the obedience of christ , that we can resigne vp our owne wits to be ruled by gods wisedome , and rest our selues only vpon the true word of god , it is not possible , that ever we should finde sure footing , where , and in what certaine trueth to rest our selues , but shall alwaies bee as those children spoken of , ephes. . . of weake and vnsetled mindes , easily perswaded to belieue any thing , being like small barkes without sufficient balance , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tossed vp and downe vpon the waues like a feather , and driven this way and that way with every winde of false doctrine , raised vp by our owne foolish fancies , or by the device and craftinesse of men lying in wait to delude vs. all commaundements of god touching our holy practises , together with all the threatnings , if we doe not obey , and promises if we doe . now these things are partly contrary to our corrupt nature and vile affections , which cannot subiect themselues to gods law , partly they are beyond the reach and desire of our sensual and worldly minds which see no great matter to be loved and feared , in whatsoever god threatneth or promiseth . gods law is holy but we are not so , gods promises are spirituall , but we are carnall , led by sensuality , placing our affections on things that are in present view , and therefore naturally everie man from the wombe is adverse , and backeward from doing that which god commandeth , or believing what he promiseth or threatneth . now then what can vphold a man in his obedience to gods law , and dependance vpon gods promises ? it is only a true faith , which apprehending truely the authority and high soveraignety which god hath in commanding vs , and together therewith beholding the excellent holynesse and goodnesse of his commandements , makes the heart stoope vnto obedience , be it neuer so irkesome vnto it selfe . againe when faith apprehendes the immutablenesse of god in his word , when it seeth the pretiousnesse of the promises of mercie with their certainety , when it seeth the terriblenesse of its threates togither with the vnavoideable accomplishment of them vpon obstinate men . here nowe the heart rests it selfe as on an anchor sure and stedfast : it is filled with a constant feare to offend , because it knowes punishment is not to be escaped , it is filled with continuall ioye in its obedience , because it abides assured of the rewarde . but where this support of faith is wanting , all obedience presently falls to pieces , then if god command or forbid vs any thing , we beginne to take advise whether it be good to obey yea , or no , we fall to aske councell of sathan , of our selues , of other men as bad as our selues . if they say no , there is our resolution too , god must looke him out other servants ; we are not for his turne . if sathan tempt vs strongly , if our affections rage when they are crossed , if men frowne or fawne vpon vs , we are quickely turned out of the way , and our purposes of obedience , are all dasht in a moment . let god and his ministers threaten never so much , we then thinke within our selues that threatned men liue longest , & such angrie words breake no bones , let god promise neuer so faire , we can beginne to smile secretly in our hearts , and thinke they are but faire words , that make none but fooles faine . indeede if the worlde threaten or promise , wee thinke there is something in an arme of flesh that may doe vs hurt or good ; but when faith is fled certaine close atheisticall imaginations beginne to fasten vpon the minde concerning god and religion , as if religion were but a pretty politicke complement , & that god is one who will doe neither good nor evill , and that we haue no great cause to feare or trust him . we see then my brethren , how plaine a downfall there is from infidelity to apostasie , from god and all goodnes : when men want faith by the light whereof their blinde reason might be guided , by the power whereof their disordered hearts might bee kept in compasse , they straight runne madly into all wicked opinions and mischievous practises . most true is that of saint iames , chap. . ver . . [ a double minded man is vnstable in all his waies . ] a double minded man , that is , an vnbelieving person , whose faith and opinion stands vpon tearmes of indifferencie & probabilitie , hee is in vtramque partem on both sides , or betweene both , in neither ; his opinions in matters of religion are variable according to seasons and occasions , he holds much of his religion by the copie of m●ns countenances , much of it by permission of his lusts with manifold reservations and provisoes , that it shal bee lawfull for him in such and such cases to doe or belieue otherwise then for the present hee doth , when men are thus of double mindes who resolue vpon both sides , and so resolue vpon neither ; who cast about in their thoughts and say , i belieue this but it may be 't is otherwise , i doe this , but what if i do it not ; what if i do the contrary : when mens mindes looke thus a squint on two thinges at once they must needes bee vnstable in their waies : if saving faith in the trueth of god doe not establish the heart in a full relyance vpon god only , it is impossible but that a man should be of a wauering and moueable temper , vnstable in his opinions , vnsetled in his practises ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) like a man that standes vpon one legge , easily overturned , like a bowle on a smooth table , that 's pushed aside with the least touch of a finger ; whereas the true believer founded and stablished in the faith is one of those living stones , which s t peter speaketh of , . pet. . . which are squared and surely placed vpon the foundation , therevpon resting vnmoueable . thus much for the opening of this point sufficiently for our vse , as that which needs practise more then proofe . the vses i shall commende vnto you shal be no other then those which are made already to our hand in the text . vse the first vse shal be for exhortation , that we be now admonished of this matter : what the apostle speakes to these hebrewes , the same i say vnto you , beloved , take he●d brethren lest there be in any of you an evill heart of vnbeliefe , in departing from the living god. be well advised , looke well about you , it is a matter of greatest moment , herevpon depends your constancie in religion , and vpon that dependes your happynesse in heaven . my trust is this exhortation will not be sleighted by you , if you will a little consider seriously of these motiues , that may stirre you vp to this diligent caution . i will name but two things , which the apostle also in this place giues vs notice of . the easinesse to fall into this evill of vnbeliefe and apostasie : the apostle in this and the next chapter is very vehement , in admonishing the hebrews of this danger . and good reason , seeing it is a matter not easily heeded without good forewarning . wee easilie deceiue our selues in this matter through the wickednesse and guile of our owne hearts , many times vainely imagining our hearts to be good and faithfull , when indeede they be evill hearts of vnbeliefe . this is a peece of cunning which they are not to learne : viz. to beguile vs with counterfeit graces insteede of currant . but that which deceiues men chiefly in this businesse , is this ; that because we liue in one common societie of the church , therefore wee dreame of a communitie of faith and salvation . what meane else those carelesse thoughts and speeches of many ? i thanke god i haue a strong faith and haue had ever ; i am a christian , a protestant baptized , and bred vp in the true faith of christ iesus , i frequent good exercises , i liue as most men doe , &c : whence they thinke this is sufficient , and that now there is no danger of miscarrying . men take vp their religion as they doe fashions , what most men haue they must haue also ; most men speake well of religion , great men countenance it , a religious king loues & defends it , and it is the fashion to be a protestant , and therefore they will be so , lest they be singular : as vertues be not disliked when they grow common ( which is seldome ) men will seeme at least to loue them . my brethren , wee abhorr popery , and yet can be content to doe as papists doe ; viz : to take vp our religion vpon trust . if it be not so , whence then is the ignorance , the vngodlinesse of so many in our churches ; multitudes there be of men , who knowe not but that another religion may be as good as that which they professe , and for ought themselues or any body else can tell , be as ready to leaue as to keepe what they haue . our adversaryes see this , and stick not to triumph at this our weaknesse , that wee may haue churches full of people , but empty of sound protestants : they will tell vs in their bookes , that a great part that are on our sides , haue no other motiues to hold them here , but only because they haue bin so borne and b●edd , and receiued their religion as they do their inheritance , by descent and custome of the country ; men whom decrees of parliament and feare of lawes keepe with vs rather then any certaine knowledge of the truth of our religion by the scripture . it is a shame that wee are not able to confute such shamefull imputations . to say it is worse , with our adversaries , whose chiefe policy to keepe simple soules within the pale of their church is ignorance , and feare of the inquisition , this may stop their mouthes , but it helps not vs , we may see and pitty the miserable estate of most , who if they be examined by a minister touching their faith , will make him blush and blesse himselfe to see their ignorance ; but if such fall into the hand of a priest or iesuite to try them a litle , they will soone streine at their religion . is it not strange that they should be men that professe it , and that forwardly too sometimes , who yet are not able to maintaine i● ? how soone thinke you will such blasts as these be shaken , with every blast and torne vp out of our church , when they haue taken no deeper roote in the faith ; especially if temporall respects should meete together with sophisticall arguments , and turne them aside from the puritie of the gospell . but these are not all that deceiue themselues : not onely ignorant persons , but those that haue knowledge and liue vngodly , runne into the same errors , and danger , men that are lyars , swearers , adulterers , oppressors , voluptuous persons , yea scoffers at true piety will be accounted men that loue religion , and such as will stand to defend it if neede be . but they are not aware that there is in them an evill heart that wil deceiue them : may we thinke that such men whose end is to liue loosely will much deliberate in what religion to doe it ? vn lesse they thinke the name of a protestant will be enough to saue a libertine , what availes it whether they beleiue well or ill , when they are resolued to liue wickedly . such ignorant and vitious persons as these ( and these take vp a great parte of our companyes ) such as these they be that ●unne vpon religion at all adventures taking that which is next before thē , never labouring after that faith & knowledg which should be able to endure the tryall . so easy a matter is it for mē that liue in a true church to fall into the errors of the iewes luk . . ( wee haue abraham to our father ) and therefore we must needs doe well , and god must even doe miracles , and make men of stones if any be saued but they ; so now wee liue in a reformed church , purged with doctrine and discipline , blest with religious princes , with faithfull ministers , with peace in the dayes of others troubles , and with miraculous deliverances : and be these priviledges enough to winne our loue to religion , and our constancy in the defending of it ? ye● truly they be , if well vsed , and let them perish for euer that would seeke to rob vs of so great blessings by any malitious forces or crafts . but my brethren , externall priviledges must not deceiue vs , wee must looke euery one to himselfe that we be not vnreformed persons in a reformed church , ignorant in so great light of doctrine , disordered vnder goodnes of discipline , men disobedient to prince and priest , luxurious in our peace , secure and vnthankfull after our deliuerances . if wee be so , all is not well with vs , whatsoeuer we may boast and imagine : there is a roote of bitternesse within our vnbeleiuing hearts , which in time will spring vp into the gall and wormewood of apostasy from god and his gospell . this is the first motiue . the motiue to make vs heedfull , is the great evill and danger of apostasy and infidelity . an vnbeleiuing heart is an evill heart , a sinfull and wicked heart , a heart vnteachable and vntractable , the word works not on it , mercy cannot perswade it , judgements cannot breake it , all meanes of favour are in vaine applyed to make it yeeld : as we haue a sufficient example of the iewes alleadged in this chapter , with whom gods word , and great works prevayled nothing , because of their vnbeleife . thus it is evill in it selfe , it is evill also in its effects , because it breeds a forsaking of god , the very worst of all evills in the world which the apost●e amplifies calling it apostasy , a departing frō the living god. this attribute compriseth all the rest , & more to vs thē all the rest , not only what god is in himselfe , but what he is vnto the creatures , namely the author of their life & being , & so the fountain of their happynesse and welfare . he therefore that forsakes god , leaues the wellspring of liuing waters to drinke puddle out of a broken cisterne , he leaues the sunne to warme himselfe at a candle , and departs from life , to goe into death : god is truth and light , and they that goe from him runne into darkenesse and error , in him only is peace and happinesse , without him there 's nothing but woe and misery : [ they forsake their owne mercy , that trust in lying vanities ] ionah . . . being taught by his owne experience ; he that flyes away from gods presence to goe to tharsis , thinking there to be in safety he shal be deceiued in his expectation , the windes will not blow fauorably vpon such a runagate , the seas will not brooke the shippe that beares him , safety he finds none , but whē we least looked for it in the belly of a fish , and that neither vntil he had returned vnto god , whom he had forsaken , by prayer and promise of obedience . men and angels and all creatures are but lying vanityes deceiuing the hope of them that seeke vnto them for helpe , when their ayde is only sought after and god forsaken , they then leade vs into sinne and misery , and there leaue vs. wherefore miserable is the case of apostates , who turne their backes to religion and sanctity of life , in as much as these things cannot be left , but god must be forsaken too . there is indeede an imagination amongst them , that god will be a friend vnto them in all religions , and in all practises whatsoeuer . but this is but a turkish dreame ; no , he that departs from faith and obedience , departs also from the liuing god. and whosoeuer so forsakes god , let him also be sure god will forsake him , then which no greater miserie can betide a creature . you see , beloued , what iust cause we haue to enforce this exhortation vpon our selues . take heede &c. it is easie yet most dangerous to be deceiued herein , wherefore now bethinke your selues , try your hearts in an vnpartiall examination of them , whether they be sound in the faith yea , or no ; now that yee may not wander in this search , fasten your meditations vpon these two particulars . . looke to thy knowledge , see vpon what grounds thy faith in god and profession in religion is built . stands thy faith in the wisedome of men , & beleiuest thou because of their saying ? is it founded vpon the custome of the countrie , & of thine owne education , vpon the authoritie of lawes and good liking of men that establish and maintaine the religion thou professest : if this be the ground worke of thy faith , thou buildest vpon the sand . hast thou no sound knowledge of religion thy selfe ? art thou vnable to iustifie thy faith by the scriptures ? is not thy conscience convinced by sure proofe that the religion which thou professest is the very truth of god ? if so , know then for a certaine that there is an euill heart within thee , that will betray thee to apostasie in the time of trouble . shall a man thinke thou wilt stand to that which thou knowest not throughly : when arguments , threatnings , persuasions , and faire promises shall assault thee ? will such sleight imaginations as these endure the stake when all that thou canst say for thy selfe is , i thinke so , men say so , i haue beene taught so , by such and such ministers , other men are of that opinion , i neuer heard to the contrarie ? and wil such slender , and ill grounded conceites as these in matter of religion vphold thy heart in a constant resolution to stand for the maintenance of the faith ? will these arme thee with courage against the point of the sword , the heate of the fire , the teeth of the beast , the force of torments , losse of friends , of country , of life for christs sake ? be assured that if thy religion rest vpon such propps as these , that it will fall vpon the dust , when peace , credit , and other temporall respects which are now the maine vndersetters of it , shal be remoued , and the whole weight of it shall leane vpon such a broken reede . looke to thy practice , whereby thou shalt best discover what thy heart is . is the practice of thy religion entire , faire , vniuersal , equally respecting all the commandements , so that thou studiest to thy power to walke before god in vprightnesse , and to please him in all things ? art thou the same man in priuate , that thou art in publike , in thy closet and in thy parlour , in the church , and in the market , in thy life and in the pulpit ? is thy carriage even and smooth , doe thy holines towards god , thy righteousnesse towards men , thy sobrietie towards thy selfe keepe pace together , & goe hand in hand ? art thou a faithfull minister , a iust magistrate , an honest tradesman as well as thou pretendest to be a christian ? if thou canst say yea , & that truly , there 's hope of such a one , that what ever may befall him , he will not start back nor deale vnfaithfully in the covenant he hath made with god , but that his faithfulnesse and vprightnesse shal preserue him from backsliding . but , beloued , if ye serue god with reservations and secret dispensations , picking and choosing according as it fits your owne humonrs , doing this thing , disobeying that ; if ye trust god in some promises , mistrust him in others , feare him in some threatnings , despise him in others , then know , all is not well within ; for there is within an evill heart of vnbeleife , and religion will gaine but litle credit , by your cōstācie in the professing of it . he that shuffles and cutts and choakes his conscience by shifts of wit , stifles in him the good motions of grace , nourisheth in him some wicked affection or other , and liues in the practice of some secret abomination : he that can stumble at a straw , and leape ouer a block , straine at a ceremony and neglect the substance of righteousnesse , and iudgment , and the feare of god , he that is forward in such maters as gaine applause , making the shew of his religion his reputation , but in the meane time where there 's no notice taken of him , he liues loosely , intemperatly , and vnconscionably : let not such a one deceiue himselfe , it is certaine his heart is naught and vnfaithfull , and when god & his religion haue most neede of him such a false friend will faile them both . he that hath already denied the power of godlinesse , will it be any wonder if afterwards he deny the forme of it ? one sinne liued in without repentance is enough to pull a man to hell , and will it not be enough to poperie , or any other heresie ? he that will not leaue his sin for his religions sake , will easily be perswaded to leaue his religion for his sinnes sake ; he that will not at gods commande or intreaty be brought in any hand to put to death the body of sinne , to relinquish any of his pleasing and profitable lusts , & lewd practices , is this man in case to put to death himselfe in the defence of gods truth , for loue thereof to forsake the world and himselfe too , to part with so much that could not part with so little ? he that is already a secret enemy to religion and devotion , will in time proue an open pesecutor of both . he that can despise and in heart deride a protestant minister is in faire forwardnesse to like well of a popish priest. in a word he that hath bid farewell to pietie to day , it is an even lay but he may bee driuen to take leaue of his religion to morrow . when once the conscience can swallow downe wicked practises , it will soone digest wicked opinions : when once the ship leakes , the lading is in danger both to sinke or swimme together , neither is it possible that a pure faith can be preserued in an impure conscience . now ( my brethren ) let every one of vs cause our hearts to passe vnder this triall & censure , and so we shall see what we haue to trust to , & what religion hath to trust to vs. let vs goe vpon sure grounds , care we that our knowledge of religion be distinct , and certaine , that our practice of it bee sincere , free frō hypocrisie , & so we shal giue good proofe of our faithfulnesse for the present , and our perseuerance for the time to come . be not slack to goe about this search , and be sure to doe it throughly , delaies are dangerous when the the disease is mortall , and to cure by halfes is not to cure at al. secret infidelity is like hereditary diseases , or like bruises taken in youth if they be not looked to in time , & throughly cured they will certainely kill at last . a gangrene kils when it gets to the heart , and what will that doe that is bred in the heart ? inward diseases are ever dangerous ; but when they haue seized vpon the heart the fountaine of life they proue deadly . take then heed of an evill heart poysoned with vnbeliefe ; and as you loue the credit of religion , the favour of god , the happinesse of your soules , looke to it betimes to purge forth of you such a venemous humour . and now for an antidote against this infection hearken in the next place to the second vse . vse the second vse is of direction vnto a remedie against vnbeleife , and apostasie , doe that which the apostle here exhorts you to [ exhort one another daily , while it is called to day . ] finis . exod. . . . thrice in the yeare shall all your men children appeare before the lord god , the god of israel . for i will cast out the nations before thee , and inlarge thy borders : neither shall any man desire thy land , when thou shalt goe vp to appeare before the lord thy god thrice in the yeere . in these words we haue two parts to be observed . . a precept . . a promise . the precept is a leviticall injunction touching certaine times of solemne worshippe to bee performed to god by the israelitish nation , in the . ve . more distinctly we haue in it three circumstances to be obserued . the time when this service was to be performed , that was [ thrice in the yeare ] namely at . very solemne feasts , which were these . the feast of the passeouer or vnleavenedbread , because during the feast for seven dayes they might haue no leavenedbread in all their dwellings . this feast the whole nation was to keepe at the tabernacle where euer it should be set vp : where after they had sacrificed the paschall lambe in the evening , they were to returne on the morrow to their habitations as it is deut. . . this feast was kept on the th day of the first moneth , in memory of their deliverance out of aegypt , & in aegypt from the slaying angell , and in type of christ that saues vs from the wrath to come . the feast of pentecost , or of weekes , which was kept seuen compleat weekes after the passeouer ; or beginning the accompt at ripe haruest when they put the sickle to the corne ; fiftie dayes after they were to appeare before god with an oblation of the first fruits , as it is deut. . . lev. . . &c. this feast was kept in memory of the law giuen at mount sinai , fifty daies after the departure of the children of israel out of aegypt . the feast of the tabernacles , kept on the fifteenth day of the seaventh moneth , for seuen dayes together after the gathering in of haruest and vintage , lev. . . &c. at which time the children of israel that were israelites borne were to dwell in boothes made of the boughes of thicke and broad leaved trees , leaving their houses ; in memory that they dwelt in tents or boothes for many yeares in the wildernesse , as it is verse . . of that place . these were the three solemne feasts of the yeare wherein all the males were to appeare before the lord , as we haue this precept explained by another precept , deut. . . exod. . . &c. wherein these feasts are mentioned . this is the first circumstance of the time . the second is the persons that were at those times to performe this worship vnto god : these are [ all your men children ] all the males amonge the israelites . the third circumstance is , the person before whom they were to make their appearance , that is god who is here called the [ lord iehouah ] and the [ god of israel , ] both titles implying that he had iust authority to commande the israelites such solemne services , both in regard of his absolute soveraignty over all , and also of his gracious mercy towards them his people . now vnder this circumstance of the person is implied the place , where they should appeare , which was in that place which god should choose , wherein to reare vp the tabernacle , or sanctuary , for his solemne and standing worship . this was first at shiloh , & after that was destroyed , at ierusalem , in the temple built by solomon ; which place god chose to put his name there , that is to establish his worship and to manifest his glorious presence in speciall manner in that place . in which respect those that appeared in those places dedicated to gods worship , are sayd to appeare before god himselfe , there present to require and reward their faithfull services . this then is the precept , that at three solemne feastes in the yeere , the passeover , pentecost and tabernacles all the males of the israelitish nation , should repaire vnto the chiefe place of gods publike worship , there to offer sacrifice and performe such services as were required of them . next followes verse . . the promise which is added to the precept by way of prevention , to take away such an objection as the people might make against the equitie and reasonablenes of the afore named precept ; god had commanded three times in a yeere all should come vp to the tabernacle or temple . what will become of vs then might the people say ? if all the men must go vp & leaue their houses , who shal in their absence defend their wiues , childrē , goods , cattle , &c. frō spoile ? we dwell amid'st enemies round about vs , the ammonites , moabites , syrians , phenicians , philistines , amalekites , edomites &c. who beare vs mortall hatred for the wrong they thinke wee haue done them invading their territories ; these wil be mindfull of vs , they haue policie enough to know the custome of our country , and they wil be malitious enough , to watch their best opportunitie to doe vs mischiefe ; the season fit for invasion being the harvest time . if the land be thus as is were dispeopled thrice in the yeare they will soone provide forces in a readines to set vpon vs , and when men are absent , wals & women are but weake defences , when al shal be at ierusalem an hundred or moe miles from home and that for many dayes in their going and comming and abode there , what a spoile may there be committed vpon the borders in the meane time ? wherefore this service of god cannot be performed but with apparent perill to the whole state. this is the obiection which the israelits might make both in the wildernes , and after that from time to time when they dwelt in the promised land. by way of answer vnto this doubt , god promiseth that no danger should befall them for observing of this commandement in this particular . our enemies will invade our country if we doe it say they : nay , saith god , not so . i will so order matters that they shall doe you no hurt [ neither shall any desire thy land when thou shalt go vp thrice in a yeere to appeare before the lord thy god ] wherein god promiseth that by an especiall providence he would so governe the hearts of the enemies of his people , that they should not as much as intend them any mischief when they went about the service of god. though a faire opportunity should bee offered them , yet they should haue no heart or desire to meddle with their countrey . but because they might yet cast a farther doubt and bee scarse willing to take god vpon his word in a matter so vnlikely ; therefore god to put them out of all feare strengthens this his promise by two other promises which should soone be effectually performed ; that by seeing his truth in the one , they may learne to trust to his truth in the other . these promises are . that god would driue out the inhabitants of the land of canaan , and giue them a dwelling there , [ for i will cast out the nations before thee : ] therefore hee coulde easilie keepe out their enemies from reentring that could throw them out , when they were in possession . that he would make their territories larger from time to time [ and i will enlarge thy coasts ] their territories assigned them should grow wider , not narrower ; and they should gaine vpon their enemies , who were more like to winne vpon them . now then hee that coulde giue them a countrey when they had none , but wandered in the wildernes without house or home ; he that could enlarge their borders when at the first they were but little ( according as experience anone after this time did proue to be most true : ) he also could preserue them from loosing any thing they had , especially when they hazzarded it for his owne service sake . this is the plaine resolution of this scripture . from hence now wee haue two instructions for our practice here to be learned . the first is , doct. that no man shal be a looser by his obedience to god. the inference is plaine . the israelits might pleade that they could not obey this commaundement , because of apparent inconveniencies that woulde follow therevpon : god remoues this scruple by promising that no such danger should happen on them as they imagined ; if they would obey they should not be damaged by it . now forasmuch as the like obiections are made by vnbelieuers against every part of gods service , to the end to shift of from themselues a necessitie ●o obedience ; and also because god deales a like at all times towards his faithfull servants ; which setting a side all by-respects readily obey his will , by the rule of proportion , from this particular we deduce this generall . that god suffers not men to sustaine hurt and losse● in regard of their obedient performance of such things as he commands them . the second is this . doct. experience of the trueth in some of gods promises , should confirme our faith in the beliefe of others . the deduction is also manifest , god commands the israelites to belieue that hee will over-rule the hearts of their enemies , and keepe them from annoying of their countrey when they are busied about gods worship : why ? because he would cast out their enemies , because hee would enlarge the bounds of their countrey after their enioying it ▪ now these promises they shoulde see manifestly accomplished shortlie after they came into the land of canaan ; for now they were in the wildernesse when this precept was given them , and therefore they had reason to belieue that god would bee as good as his word in this promise for their defence , as he would be for their plantation in that countrey . hence the point is , triall in one thing , should cause trust in god for all other matters . of these in order . that none shal be a looser by his obedience to god. for confirmation of this trueth obserue these reasons . r. the first reason is drawne from the trueth and faithfulnes of god in as manie promises as hee hath made in the scriptures , setting forth his aboundant rewarde of faithfull obedience . it were an endlesse thing to name vnto you all , or the most of these promises . i shall therefore only direct you to the serious meditation vpon these scriptures , deut. . psal. , and . wherein whatsoeuer is good for the soule , the body , the estate , the name , the posteritie of man , all is promised to them that feare god and obey his commaundements ; in all which god is faithfull and true to performe what hee promiseth , if we be carefull to obey . r. . the second is from his mercie and bountie , wherein he is rich vnto all , and aboue all to such as feare and obey him . by which meanes god provides as for his owne glorie , so for our singular inconragement in his seruice . he will not haue his seruants to complaine that they serue a hard master , one that doth ill prouide for the aduancement and welfare of his seruants : that his seruice is of much hazard , full of trouble , molestation , and painefulnesse , but of little profit and comfort . this were a dishonour to god : wherfore god will make it appeare that he commaundes not over vs for our hurt , nor makes vse of our seruice without a bountifull rewarde for our labour . if hee bid vs doe any thing 't is that we maie gaine by it , as well as himselfe . his glorie and our happinesse go both together : nay , was there euer anie who sought to glorifie god by his obedience , but god made him happie in the reward of it ? r. . thirdly , the last shal be frō the power of god , wherby he is able to giue euerie good thing to his feruants ; and to shield them from all euill things . whatsoeuer is worth the hauing , that god hath in his gift as soueraigne lord to distribute all the goodnesse which is in himselfe or in his creatures , where and in what manner hee himselfe pleaseth . againe , he hath vnder his commande the forces of all creatures in heauen and in earth , which hee ruleth as he pleaseth to his owne purposes . he can at ease frustrate the harmefull intentions , and noisome qualities of the worst of them . hee can at anie time turne their malice into mercie , yea he is able to bring forth glorie to himselfe , and profit to his seruants not onlie against , but even out of their mischievous designements . this shall suffice for proofe of this point , which needes not so much confirmation to conuince vs of the trueth of it , as perswasion to moue vs to applie it to our practice . i will therefore come to the application of it after i haue in few wordes cleared a doubt or twaine , the solution whereof will farther illustrate the point it selfe ▪ q. the first question is , what is to bee thought of those that suffer evill for the service of god ? we see it is generallie the condition and lot of the godly to haue verie hard measure in this world , if any sit downe by the losse 't is commonlie they . he that refraineth himselfe from evill maketh himselfe a prey ; it was and wil be true to the worlds end : a godlie man is a faire marke wherevpon to discharge all the malice and mischiefe of the world ; and a goodly pleasant matter it is to the diuell , and men to heape all iniuries that may be vpon the head of so hateful a person as is in their accōpt a faithfull seruant of god : how then is it true that gods seruice brings vs no dammage ? i answere brieflie to this doubt three things . a. that such evils as befall the good and godly come vpon them ordinarilie , not for their diligence , but negligence in the seruice of god. even they haue their faults , their pride , their securitie , their vnbeliefe , their profanenesse in gods worship , their covetousnes ; and then no marvell if they smart for it . god le ts loose the tongues of railers to scourge their name ; he vnbindes the hands of robbers to spoile their goods ; he giues sathan libertie to afflict their soules ; he himselfe hides his face from them , and in wofull plight they are , till in their affliction they turne to the lord , and repent of their evill doings . servants when they grow lazie , and wicked neede . correction more then protection ; and so it is betweene god and vs ; if once we grow vnfaithful he hath a hand to smite vs , as wel as to defend vs , a rod as wel as a crooke , and he loues vs so wel that hee will not spare our iniquities , but lay it on vs , that being chastened by him we might not be condemned with the world● . . cor. . ● . god doth dispose of thinges thus in great wisedome when even the best fare many times worst , to try the soundnes of their zeale , their faith , their patience , &c. god will know whether men that professe much loue of him will be contented to beare a little losse for his sake , or whether they will forsake his service , when peace , wealth , and credit in the world forsake them . god will also make the world know that he hath servants in the world which serue him not for ful baggs , high titles , large possessions , welfurnished tables , bodily ease and a whole skinne . ( as sathan most maliciouslie accused holy iob. ch . . ) but men that serue him out of loue & faithfulnes , men that are resolued to follow him through povertie , disgrace , hunger , nakednesse and perills , yea to open their breasts to the sword of the murtherers and to giue their bodies to the flames , if it may bee to doe god or his gospell credit . now other things be but small losses , my brethren , when god and his grace in vs gaines so much honour . those losses which at anie time happen for gods cause , god at another time makes them good : they are not losses so much as layings out , which after a patient for bearing a while come home with interest , commōly in the same kind , or which is much better with aboundance of grace here , & a greater weight of glorie in the life to come . this is plaine in that answere our saviour makes to his disciples , math. . . . [ behold , saith peter in the name of all the rest , wee haue forsaken all and followed thee ; what therefore shall wee haue ? ver . . ] christ answeres , neither they nor any others should be loosers by him , he would make them also sufficient amends , whosoever should sustaine dammage and trouble for his sake , [ verily i say vnto you ( saith christ ) that when the sonne of man shall sit on the throne of his maiestie , ye which follow me in the regeneration , shall sit also vpon twelue thrones and iudge the twelue tribes of israel . ] a large recompence if we marke it . poore fisher-men that had forsaken a few boats , and nets , and cabbins , and other such meane tackling of their trade and liuelyhood , to attend vpon christ in his busines , to be thus rewarded with thrones and iudgement-seats , when christ shall come in his glorie . but this is the disciples priviledge ; there followes a promise for alother . [ and whosoever shall forsake houses , or brethren , or sisters , or father or mother , or wife or children , or lands , for my names sake and the gospell , he shall receiue a hundred fold more , now at this present ; houses , and brethren , and sisters , and mothers , and children , & lands with persecution ( marke that condition ) with perseeution : ) and in the world to come shall inherite everlasting life . mark. . . ] lo then nothing is lost , that is neglected for gods cause : he wil be accomptable to satisfie for all troubles , losses , inconveniences whatsoever that we shall runne into by reason of our faithful obedience vnto his commandements . thus much of the first question ; the next is , q. whether we may neglect the busines of our calling to imploy our selues in the service of god ? for if gods seruice bee so full of gaine and advantage it seemes we haue a faire warrant to leaue much of the imploiments of our severall vocations , that so we might spend the more time in gods service . a. whereto i answere , that we may not doe so , because that our generall callings to be christians , and our particular callings in a civill life doe not crosse one another , but are subordinate and serviceable one to another . religion is that which brings a blessing vpon our civill vocation , and this againe is the ordinarie meanes of obtaining that blessing . our civil vocation is the standing where in we are to shew forth the fruits of our religion and to approue our selues to be indeed good christians , by being honest tradesmen , iust magistrates , painefull ministers , &c. so that we may not neglect one calling for another , seeing god is served & glorified by our faithful discharge of both alike , and therefore we must abide , as the apostle commaundes vs , in that vocation wherein we are called , not shifting from one to another , not taking libertie to be idle in our particular lawfull imployments , that so wee may be diligent in gods seruice . wherefore they are iustlie to be reproved not onelie , who vtterlie forsake all imployments of this life , to the end they may wholie consecrate themselues to spiritual devotion , but such also who though they forsake not vtterlie , yet neglect more then is fit , their civill vocations . it is either waie a misguided zeale either to withdraw ones selfe from humane society , neglecting al service to our neighbour vnder a pretence of more devout seruice to god , as popish votaries vse to doe , or as manie doe , who grow carelesse of their lawful affaires , whiles they busie themselues about exercises of religion . i would be loath to discourage anie man for his forwardnes in matters of religion ; i know well wee shall finde everie where ten monstrouslie prophane , to one indiscreetlie zealous : yea a hundred that neglect gods service to follow their owne busines , for one that doth otherwise . yet giue me leaue to tell you that there is a fault among some in the world , who suffer dammage not so much by gods service , as by their owne indiscretion , whiles by vnnecessarie iournies . conferences , entertainements , and such like occasions touching matters of religion , they put al their necessarie businesse out of order . if such men suffer decaie in their estates , they must blame themselues . religion is not in the fault , which where it is truelie taught teacheth man prudence , how to order his estate with iudgement . the want whereof giues occasion to most to imagine that the greatest part of such mens religion lies in their eares , because they loue to heare much but not to doe . this fault should be amended where it is to be found , to the end that religion be not scandalized as a profession that doth impoverish men . i confesse it is not an easie matter to giue generall rules that may befit all callings and conditions of life , to proportion out the times of gods service , and our owne imployments , yet these things i shall commende to your considerations . that in parting our time betweene religious and civill affaires , we shall doe best to follow gods owne directions , who hath allotted a larger proportion to our owne temporall businesses then to his spirituall service ; sixe daies for those ; one day for this . not but that he must haue the glorie of some time , and all the businesses of everie daie ; but on the seaventh day he requires we should more immediatlie and wholly intende his service . and know this for a truth , that could reason or gods commande perswade people to harken to gods counsell , diligentlie and seriouslie to attend all the dueties of gods worship vpon the lords daie , they should finde a larger increase of grace and better successe in their affaires by that one meanes wel vsed , then now by manie neglected . you may obserue a diuersitie in mens callings : some afford more leasure , some lesse . where more may be spared it cānot be better bestowed then vpon god to glorifie him , and vpon a mans owne soule to saue it ; but where lesse may be spared , something yet may be set apart for religion . this is certaine , there is no calling of neuer so busie imployment , but enough time may be spared for some good duties without hindering the world , and enough preserved for the world without robbing of god , were we wise to doe well , did not covetousnes , voluptuousnes and other vilde affections befoole vs , and make vs vnthankefull vnthrifts of this shortnesse of life and grace , were our eies cleared vp , that we could looke perfectlie into the end of all things , reason and religion would teach vs , that much of our time would bee spent better then it is . surelie men will say hereafter how much better had it beene , had i spent such an howre in praier which i wasted in idlenes ; such a night in examining my heart vpon my bed , and watering my couch with my teares of repentance , which i spent in revelling , gaming , and other vngodlie practises ; how much better had it beene if i had gone to the house of god , when at such a time i went about needlesse disports ; that such a daie had beene spent in praier and fasting , which was passed awaie in complements of visitation , and entertainements . but we trifle awaie our time , and then complaine we want time for gods service ; and service of our callings . the service of our lusts haue eaten vp that which was to be bestowen vpon god , and the remainder the world must haue that . wherefore let vs learne wisedome , and seeing wee can almost at any time finde an houre , halfe a daie , a whole daie , or more to spare from our businesses for by matters . let vs doe as much for god as we will doe for the world , and besides the seaventh day which is his owne let vs giue him somewhat of the sixe other , an houre to heare a sermon as well as twaine to our selues to sit idle lie or ill imployed ; to spend halfe an houre in praier , reading , meditation , as well as three houres at a feast ; to spare once a quarter a daie for the humiliation of thy soule in fasting praier and examination of thy sinnefull hart as wel as thou sparest odde daies enough for thy pleasure . this were wisedome and spirituall thriftines ; and be bold on it , my brethren , that things being thus ordered with moderation and godlie discretion , much time will be gained for gods service without crossing or hindering of our worldlie affaires . thus much of these questions ; now let vs come to make some application of the point to our practise . vse the first is for the discouerie and reproofe of those evill thoughts and practises of men who iudge the service of god to be an vnprofitable and dangerous imploiment . manie there are that thinke as that evill & sloathfull servant spake , mat. . . [ master i knew thou wast a hard man ] in most mens estimation god is a hard master , that lookes for much labour and paies but small wages . this corrupt opinion of god & his worship is an old festered sore in the heart of man deepelie setled in his thoughts , and not seldome blistering out vpon his tongue . [ your words haue beene stout against me ] saith the lord to the iewes in malachie his time . mal. . . . [ and wherein had they spoken stubbornelie against him ? ye haue said ( saith god ) it is in vaine to serue god , & what profit is it that we haue kept his commandements and walked humbly before the lord of hosts . therefore wee count the proude blessed , even they that worke wickednesse are set vp ; and they that tempt god yea they are delivered . ] see the rancor of a corrupt heart venting it selfe in fowle accusations against god and his goodnes , as if he were one that had no respect at all to his faithfull servants , but one that favoured his foes more then his friends . such is still the sottish iudgment of the world , that it is a thankeles office to obey god almighty : they coūt no time so vnprofitably spent as that which is bestowed vpon his service , even the godlie in a fit of discontent are apt to thinke so . david , ps. . . [ verily i haue cleansed my heart in vaine . ] baruch . ier. . . no course so vnlikely to thriue by , to liue happily or honorably in the world as that which god counsels them to : no men so despicable , and miserable as those who desire to be what they are named , christians . mens practises easilie discover , that in their hearts they are come to desperate resolutions , as that impious fellow , . king. . . [ should i attend on god anie longer : ] perswade men all that you can to a religious observation of reading the word , instructing their servants and children as is to bee done in christian families ; shew them gods commaundements , tell them of his promises that in doing these things god will blesse both soule and body , goods and good name : and marke their answeres . alas they are but poore men , it is one day in a weeke losse to them , they must worke , or else wife and children wil be ill provided for : they cannot liue by hearing of sermons ; religion will not buy food or raiment , they haue their hands full of businesse , and should they spend halfe an houre in a morning and so much at evening for prayer and devotion , all would runne to wracke , their worke would want their servants , and their servants would want their sleepe ; they haue some speciall busines which cannot bee compassed in the weeke , wherefore they must make bolde with god , and borrow what they neuer meane to pay , it must and shal be done on the lordes day , else they should wrong themselues and set all out of square . tell men that god abhorres falshood , that a little with equitie is better then bagges full of cosenage and deceipt ; they 'le answere you , that is not the way to thriue , they wote well that plaine dealing is a iewell and god likes well of it , but they do giue you to vnderstande that hee that vseth it shall die a begger . wherefore they must lie and cosen , and doe as the world doth or els they are sure wealth wil come in but slowly . perswade men to be mercifull to the poore , to feed the hungry , cloath the naked , helpe the decaied that their hearts may blesse them , and that god may blesse them in themselues & their posteritie : you shall haue from them such speaches as these ; i know the ●ore part of my life , but not the end , the world is hard , trade decaies , i grow old , i may come to wāt where now i giue , a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush , i am sure of what i haue , i cannot tell what i shall haue ; i haue many to provide for , we must liue every man vpon his owne ; with a greate deale of such cold water , which men vse to cast vpon those few sparkles of charity that 's left in them , vtterlie to quench it . thus god may promise or commande what he will , but most of vs are at a point with him , we will doe but what we list , thinking with our selues it is no booty to belieue what he promiseth , or obey what he commands . the ground of this perversnes of mens opinions and practises touching our obedience to god is , that infidelity which is rooted in our natures and growen vp with vs even from the wombe ; that poison which the serpent powred forth into the minds of our first parents , viz : that god did not meane fairly towards them hath ever since deeply infected our natures making vs stil to haue god in a jealousie & suspition , that he wil not do what he saith ; when he bids vs obey & makes promise vpon promise that al shal be wel with thē that feare him , much a doe we haue to take god vpō his word , we forecast a thousand perils : if we do so there is danger , if so yet there we are not safe neither : we begin to argue how this or that can be , whē & which way i shal be blessed as god saith i shall . and after a great deale of quarrelling & disputing in the end we fal to this conclusion , that it 's good to trust god no farther thē we see him . we may every one read his own thoughts in the practises of men recorded for our observation in the scriptures . take a few examples , . chro. . we read that amaziah hauing hired men of israel to go with him against the edomits he was forbiden by the prophet of god to let the army of israel go with him to battle , for if he did he should surely loose the victory ; if he obeyed he should conquer . here now amaziah is in a straight whether hee should follow the counsell of the man of god or his owne ; [ but what shall we doe ( saith he ) for the hundred talents which i haue given to the armie of israell ? ver . . ] yea this stucke in his stomacke , he could willingly doe as god bids him , but he shall loose an hundred talents by the bargaine , and that is a great matter ; wherefore the king could finde in heart to adde obstinacie to his follie , & as at first he had hired them against gods good liking , so now to retaine them contrarie to his expresse commande , and to hazard & loose gods favour and aide in that iournie rather then the losse of one hundred talents ; and doubtlesse so he had done , had not the prophet beene earnest with him , and confirmed him by perswading him to trust to gods power and rest himselfe contented ; [ the lord , saith he , shall giue to thee much more then this ] in the same verse . againe in the . of levit. we read that god gaue this law to the israelits , that sixe yeeres they should sow their land & dresse their vinyards , but euery seaventh yeere the land should rest ; they should not sow their corne , nor reape that which growed of it selfe , they should not cut their vines , nor gather their grapes that grew that yeere , as it is from ver . . to the . of that cha. doubt ye not but this seemeth a strāge cōmand to this distrustful people , and that they were very hardly brought to obey it , even as many of vs would do in the like case . what ? must all tillage cease ? must no regard be had for the fruit of the earth for every yeare ? why this is the direct way to starue vs all ? what if harvest & vintage proue bad in the sixe yeeres what shal we haue to liue vpō in the years after ? what if the th yeare proue naught then by like we must liue yeares vpon one yeares provision ; thus a famine shal be brought vpon the land in all likelyhood ; it is not to be doubted but many of them , notwithstanding gods commaundement , would haue the plough in the ground , and their pruning hookes at their vines , wee know what they did in the like case . exo. . god bad them keepe none of the manna they gathered one day till the next , but yet they did keepe it doubting whether there would be any on the next morning to be had vers . . . god bad them gather none vpon the sabboth day but that which they gathered on the day should suffice for two daies , yet for all that they will try ; and though god say expresslie ye shall finde none , yet perhaps it 's otherwise , they must abroad to see if any thing bee to be had v. . . . . . so extremely hard it is to perswade mē to obedience when there is any hope of gaine , or feare of losse that may moue them to the contray . wherfore to prevent such cavils as the israelites might make against the aforenamed commādement touching the rest of the yeere god himselfe in the aforesaid ch. v. . . . . . answers the matter ( therefore ye shall doe my statutes and keepe my commandements and doe them and ye shall dwell in the land in safty , &c. ) take yet one example more , namely the leviticall worship of god injoined to these iewes standing in much expence of in time regard of so many sabboths , new moones , and other solemne times to bee observed , also requiring no small charge in the performance of it , in regard of so many sacrifices and oblations to bee made . could now these coveteous and vnbelieuing people spare so much time or cost vpon god almightie ? heare what god saith of them concerning the one amos , . . ( when will the new moone be gone that we may sell corne ? & the sabboth that we may set forth wheat , making the ephah small and the shekel great , and falsifying the ballances by deceit ) these were their thoughts if not their wordes touching the time alotted to gods service . iust as men now-a-dayes . these sundayes thinke they , is time clearely lost ; we might haue gained thus many pence or pounds had it not that sunday came in and hindred our busines , wee wish it gone that wee were at our trading againe . likewise for the other to wit the charges they were put to in sacrifice and offerings ; heare what god reports of their practtices in that matter mal. . . see the covetousnes and infidelity of that wretched people who think any thing is good enough for god : faire and far lambs , and sheepe & oxen , & calues without spot , & blemish ( as was required in sacrifices ) oh this was too much charges ; was it not pitty to burne such good cattle , and part with them for nothing ? sell them rather and make mony of them ; as for the altar and the priest ; any leane , starueling , that 's nought worth shall serue the turne well enough . iust as many men doe in setting their children to several professions , choose out the fairest and most hopefull , and bestow one vpon the law , another vpō physick , another vpon merchandize , or some other course wherby they may speedily rise to wealth and greatnes in the world . but now if there be ever a deformed impe in body , minde , & manners plant him in the ministery ; and why ? they thinke god deserues the worst servants , because they deeme him the worst master ; in whose service there is least credit and hope of preferment to be found . for to end this vse , let vs a little obserue the instance here in our text touching their repairing to the place of his worship three times a yeere : it is evident that the precept in this kind was very ill observed at all times by the iewes . happily at their first plantarion in canaanwhen the great workes of god were yet fresh in their memories , their faith in the promises kept them some what from the neglect of the precept : how be it after the setting vp of the tadernacle in shiloh , when all israel met together for that purpose iosh. . . wee doe not finde expresse mention made of the generall keeping of the passeouer , till the daies of hezekiah and ioshuah . that these yeerely assemblyes were obserued by the godly israel●es appeares by the example of elkanah . . sam. . . and likewise that they were not le●t vtterly vnfrequented by the ordinary multitude appeares by that counsell which ieroboam tooke . . king. . . . . fearing lest if the people shoulde yeerely goe vp to ierusalem they would at one time or other remember their duety towards the house of david , and so revolt from him . for preventing of which mischiefe that wicked king ( not trusting gods word ) who by ahiiah had promised if hee would be obedient as was david , god would build him a sure house like vnto davids . . king. . . [ perswaded the people that it was too much labour to resort from all quarters so farre as to ierusalem ; ] they should take a shorter cut to the golden calues at dan , at bethel . ] whereby it appeares that as these solemnities were observed by many , though not by the vniversall multitude of all the males , so were they never observed before , or after , the diuision of the kingdome . which is plaine by that which is recorded touching the passeover kept in hezekiahs time . . chro. . where the passeover was proclaimed throughout all israell to be kept at ierusalem , for saith the text , v●r . . [ they had not done it a long time in such sort as it was written● . ] at which time though much people , a very great congregation from all parts met togither , as it is , ver . . yet t was not observed of all : the idolatrous israelites scorning and mocking at the messenger that published hezekiahs decrees , ver . . moreover touching the passeover kept after this in iosiah his time , the scripture saith expreslie . . king. . . [ surely there was not such a passeover holden since the daies of the iudges that iudged israel , nor in all the daies of the kings of iudah , nor of the kings of israel . ] see also . chron. . . this is a thing very remarkeable that notwithstanding so expresse a promise in this place , that yet so great negligence should creepe into so principall a part of the worshippe of god as the observation of the passeover . but , my brethren , in this and those other examples we see that which daily experience shewes to be true , that it is a matter passing difficult to obey god when carnall reason suggests that there is apparent likelyhood of gaine by not doing , or of losse by doing what he commaundes vs. vse the second vse shal bee for exhortation to fidelitie and constancie in gods service , because we shal be no loosers by it , if god bid thee , doe it whatsoever come of it , for evill it cānot be ; if he forbid thee , dare not to do it what ever hopes thou hast to gaine by it , for it will never proue well ; cast off fleshlie policie , lay no doubts in the way , put no cases , doe gods worke and rest secure of his rewarde . feare not divels , god commandes over them : feare not men , god hath their hearts in his hand , he can perswade , hee can force them : feare not the creatures , windes and weather , seas and land , heaven and earth wait on him to doe his pleasure , feare nothing whilest thou fearest god and obeyest him : if thou please him , all things shall serue thee for thy comfort . heere then beloued learne to get faith , learne to liue by faith and not sense : looke not vnto appearances , but to the promises : when thou seest no meanes to escape evil , say yet god doth , whose wisdome and faithfulnesse i dare trust . read the scriptures , meditate vpon the promises , and then know that god is no niggard , nor cruell master that vseth our labour without paying ; know that he is never behinde hand with vs. [ who is there even among you that would shut the doores for nought , or kindle a fire at my altar for nought . mal. . . ] nay hee giues a pound for a penny-worth , and if thou wilt duely reckon all thy service , thy adventures , thy losses on the one side , and thy gaines on the other : at the foote of thy score thou mayest write it downe for a summa totalis ( godlynes is to me great gaine . . tim. . . ) be perswaded then to fit your selues resolutely to the obedience of gods commandements , heare much , pray much , liue holily , deale justlie , be constant in religion , feare no hazard , venture all , credit , goods , life for gods cause ; venture all , care not for the worlds censure , what they thinke of thee and thy estate feare thou god , and thinke of his name , and remember that god promised that one day shall come [ in which men shall discerne betweene the righteous and the wicked , betweene him that serveth god , and him that serveth him not mal. . . ] then they that think god now hath forgotten his servants shall know that these is no vnfaithfulnes in the almightie , but that he is as he hath ever promised to be a sure god , a bountifull rewarder of his obedient servants . vse the last vse is for admonitiō on the contrary side , that if wee loose nothing by the service of god , wee shall certainely get nothing by the service of sinne and sathan . let a man that hath gained much by vsury , bribery , cousenage and such other vngodly practises , but cast vp middle and both ends , and in conciusion he shal finde , that he may put his gaine in his eyes , & see neuer the worse . thou hast slowed gods seruice to follow thy owne imployments . thou hast forsaken the counsell of god , and followed the plots of thyne owne contrivance . thou hast spared from god , from religion , from the poore , to the end not to wrong thy selfe . now reckon at the yeeres end to thy liues end what 's the gaine of al this , and thou shalt see that gods curse hath blasted all these thy fleshlie policies and practices , and they are vanished into smoake and emptines . ieroboam will make sure the crowne vpon his head , and the kingdome to his posterity , but it shall not be by gods meanes viz : the maintenance of his worship and service , but by a tricke of his owne devising . ieroboam will set vp idolles , and what gets he by that but the shame and destruction of himselfe and his posterity ? the coveteous iewes would not spare the fat cattle for sacrifices ; what saue they by that ? not much ; they haue sheepe , aud get gods curse vpon it and themselues to mal. . . ( cursed be the deceiver , &c. ) in a word get what thou canst get , if thou gaine not gods fauor , ti 's not a sauing bargaine , i will not be thy halver . he makes an ill match that winnes the world and looseth god and his owne soule . wherefore to end , let vs reforme our iudgements touching our service to god and our service of sinne : know we henceforth that no course is so thriving as that ; none so vnprosperous as this . pray wee for the publicke , that the peace of our state may be alwaies as it is , founded vpon the purity of religion : endeavour for our private , to provide for the peace of our consciences , the happines of our liues , the salvation of our soules by our faithfull and constant obedience vnto the gosple . let vs liue by faith , and let our eyes be fixed vpon the crowne of glorie prepared for vs , and then wee shall see that there is no service to be compared to the service of this great king , who of servants will one day make vs kings to raigne , with him for evermore . finis canticles , or solomons song . . . my beloved is mine , and i am his : he feedeth among the lillies . in the former part of this chapter as in the whole song throughout , the holie ghost hath described vnto vs vnder most excellent similitudes the great loue that is betweene christ and his church , that is , everie faithfull soule . this loue appeares , . in the mutuall commendations one of another , . in the mutual desire of one vnto the fellowship of the other . the praises which christ giues vnto the church are , that the church ( the companie of the faithfull ) hath a wonderfull excellencie aboue all other societies in the world . vers. [ like a lillie amongest the thornes , so is my loue amongest the daughters . ] all the states and societies of men vpon the earth being compared to the church they are but like thornes vnto lillies and roses without al beauty & delight , vnpleasant & harmeful plants . the praise which the church giues to christ is answerable to the former : namelie that among al persons of the world he only it is that brings comfort and helpe vnto her . vers. [ like the apple-tree among the trees of the forrest , so is my welbeloved among the sonnes of men . ] men and angels withal their glory , and greatnesse are but barren trees compared to christ : they bring no grace , no glorie , no peace , no protection to the church , only christ is that apletree whose boughs are full ladē , with that spirituall fruit which is that which the apostle speaks in other tearms [ neither is there saluatiō in any other : for among men there is no other name giuen whereby wee must be saued . ] thus mutuallie christ prefers the church , the church christ before all . the great ioy which is betwene them , one to injoy the other followes at large in the next verses . the church desireth alway to injoy christs favour and protection , his graces to be bestowed vpon her , his power and spirit to comfort her and support her , in the fellowship of christ shee professeth to be true ioy and contentment [ i sate downe vnder his shadow with great delight , and his fruit was sweet vnto my tast . ] vers. the grace of god and his protection is all her desire and delight , as it is further amplified vnto the th verse . the desire and affection of christ to his church , every way as ardent as that of the church to him . he is readie to answere her when she calls vpon him , he makes speed to come vnto her , to shew her his gracious presence , to comfort her , he speaks kindlie vnto her , inviting her by all louing tearmes to come , and partake of all the abundant graces and comforts prepared for her , he tells her how well he is pleased with her obedience , her prayers she makes , her services she performes although in many imperfections and afflictions , vers. [ let me see thy countenance , let me heare thy voyce , for sweet is thy voyce , and thy coūtenance pleasant . ] lastly be testifieth his care of her safetie , that she be not spoiled by foxes , heritiques , or other enemies , that would laie her wast . all which is larglie exprest from the th verse to the th verse . after the declaration of so great affection of the faithfull toward christ , and of christ toward them againe follow by way of conclusion ▪ the words of my text giuing vs a short summe of all together , my beloued is mine and i am his he feedeth , &c. in these words the church briefly comprehends the whole misterie of that spirituall communion which shee hath with christ , the gloriousnesse of it , the desire she hath to enjoy it more fully . more distinctlie obserue these particulars . first the title which the church giues vnto christ calling him her welbeloued , my welbeloued . secondly the communion or the fellowship , that is betweene christ , and the church . what is in christ serues for the comfort of the church ; what in the church , all is for the glory and honour of christ ( he is mine and i am his ) this communion and mutuall intercourse of all good things betweene christ , and the faithfull is amplified by two particulars . first the excellencie of it , in that it is full of all heavenly comfort , and sweetnesse [ he feedeth amongst the lillies ] not in barren , and vnpleasant places , vers. but in fruitfull and most pleasant vallies , or b gardens stor'd with lilles , chap. . . and such other delights , there doth christ feed his church , noting vnto vs vnder those figures , the singular joyes which faithfull soules are partakers of , vnder the gracious government of christ their sepheard and bishop ; whose graces and favours are aboundantly communicated vnto them , things farre aboue the rarest and choiest delights that can be imagined . secondly the vehement desire the church hath to injoy this communion with christ , perpetually during this life , and perfectly in the life to come . vers. [ vntill the day breake and the shadowes flee away , turne my beloued , and be like the roe or the young hart vpon the topps of the mountaines of bether . ] vnder which alegorie the church desireth , that which she elsewhere in plain tearmes prayeth for [ come lord iesus , come quickly ] that like a roe or an hart , ( that is ) swiftly he would afford his assiistance and presence , to releiue her in the time of her warfare in this world [ till the night be past , and the shadows thereof be gone , ( that is ) all such imperfections , afflictions , sinne , temptations , and miserie that be vpon her in this life be taken away [ when the day shall breake ] the day of christs chap. . . glorious comming which the church shal enjoy in al fulnes of happinesse in the presence of god and christ for ever . this is the plaine relation and meaning of this scripture , nor will i trouble this place with any further scruple about the words . i come rather to giue you some instruction for your practise . the first lesson is from the tittle of ( welbeloued ) t is this . doct. that christ is the only well beloued of a faithfull christian . this is that which the church so often repeats in this whole song , stiling christ her faire one , her beloued , her welbeloued , him whom her soule loueth , him whō she only admires , of him she talks , is neuer well but when she enioies his presence . chap. . . if you aske her now , what is thy beloued more then another beloued ? she can soone answere and tell vs wherefore it is , that all her affection is placed vpon christ , such excellencies there be in him , ●o much happinesse is there in her fellowship with him that none but he deserues her entire true loue , and affection . good reason then a faithfull soule should loue christ. reason first in regard of the excellencies that are in the person of christ , he is in himselfe most louely , and therefore deserues most loue , al comlynes is deformity if cōpared to the beauty that is in him , he is the fairest of ten thousand , nay he is fairer then all the children of men . cōsider him in his graces , cōsider him in his glory never any person more louely & amiable . for his graces , he is enriched with all the beauty of holynesse , he hath received the spirit without measure , he is anointed with the oile of gladnes ( that is ) the holy ghost , and with power aboue his brethren . when hee was vpon the earth how sweet , and louelie was his carriage , how innocent 〈◊〉 vnblameable , what man or diuel could charge him with the least offence ? obedient hee was in al things , to his parents , rulers , to caesar , to god. in everie point he fulfilled all righteousnesse to the least title , and iot of the law. grace was powred into his lips , and from them into his heart , and the hearts of all them with whom he conversed in most divine and heavenlie discourses . charitie fild his heart and from thence flowed forth on all that had neede of helpe : he did good where t was not expected : he did good where t' was refused . what kindnes was done vnto him , but it returned vpō the head of the doer with abundant recompence ? what iniuries did he not passe by , and pardon ? he endured a world of indignities , persecutious , revilings , reproaches , and in the midst of all is so farre from minding revenge , that he praies and weepes for his enemies , admonisheth them with all meekenesse , heapes kindnesses on them , & seekes by all meanes to overcome their evil by his goodnes . goodnes is his whole nature , his whole life is nothing but a trade of doing well , & suffering evill . such was the sweetnes of his nature and so affectionatelie charitable was his heart , that no froward , and crooked perversenes of scornefull , prowde , gainesaying , disobedient men could turne awaie his desires from doing them good . in all this he was amiable as man , euen a man in abasement and infirmitie , yet then was he glorious full of grace and truth . but now looke on him in his person , and in his glorie , and these excellencies are redoubled , nay multiplied a thousand fold . consider him in his person , and so they are infinite : because in him all the fulnesse of the godhead dwelleth bodyly , and the graces of god are his graces , because he is god. as for his glory , it is not for mortall eie to behold it , or tongue to tell it : he was abased , but god hath highly exalted him aboue all names and dignities : he hath made him head of the angels , who adore him ; of the church to rule it by his spirit , ruler of the world to governe it by the scepter of his power ; he is now sate downe at the right hand of maiestie and glorie , the father having put into his hands all power in heauen and earth , and committed vnto him all power over men and angels . to which greatnes of his power is equal the glorie of his person invested with the robes of maiestie , brightnes , imp●ssibility , and all other excellencies that can be imagined most excellent . when we reade the description of his transfiguration on the mount , of his appearance to saint paul , to s t iohn , we may conceiue a little what they saw , but ti 's heareafter that we shall see him as he is . now vnto all these graces ; these glories of christ ioine that which is the fountaine of all , from whence ye shal see the parts of his compleat excellencies . that now is the infinite loue of god the father towards him his only sonne . he is his delight , his elect in whom his soule delighteth , his beloved sonne in whom he is well pleased ; so that if we would seeke for a patterne of all excellencies , they were no where to be found , but only in him . no marvaile if the church , the faithfull ( whose eies are opened to behold those things in christ ) doe loue him , a person so beloved of god , so louelie in himselfe , so gracious , so glorious . but this is not all , they loue him also . reason secondly in regard of what he is to thē , vnto the church , christ is all in all , what good shee hath it is from him , what shee expects it is by him . first in this life shee hath grace and protection , grace from his spirit , protection from his power , both from his loue. the church is sanctified by his spirit , he baptizeth it with his spirit , washing the faithfull with cleane water from the filthynes both of the flesh and spirit : he hath freed them from that loathsome vncleanenesse of corrupted nature , wherin the vngodly remain , polluted with all vncleane lusts , he sets them all at libertie from the bondage of sinne , of servants to sinne making them servants to god in righteousnes : he liues in our hearts by faith , and changeth our sinfull natures into the likenesse of his most glorious nature by the powerfull workes of his spirit , sending life into vs who were wilde , and withered branches , that being quickned thereby , we might bring forth fruit according to god in all holynesse . secondly the church is protected by the power of christ frō the malice of sathan whether he act ; plot , contriue destruction against whole churches , or by temptations feeke to vndoe the soules , and salvation of private men . christ walketh in the midst of the candlestickes , revel . . . he only that hath placed them can remoue them : he hath his starres his ministers in his right hand , where they shall bee sa●e : he hath all those that god hath giuen him in his keeping and none shall plucke them from him , all are kept safe to that everlasting kingdome . in peace he is the glorie of his church , in trouble the safetie of it : if shee be in the wildernes , he is the angel that goes before her to giue her rest , if shee be persecuted he hath a wildernesse whereto she may flee , there be cleft ; and holes in the rocke wherein shee shall be hid , and if the dragon cast forth whole flowds of malice to overwhelme her , the earth shall open her mouth , & swallow vp the flowds , if shee be invaded with armadoes he can blow with his breath , and they shall sinke into the bottome of the deepe like lead ; if vnder-mined by a powder-plot , he can bring to light the deedes of darknesse , and saue his anointed and his people , by a deliverance as wonderfull as the act intended . in a word his heart is vpon his church , and faithful people , their sorrowes he thinkes vpon , their afflictions , his afflictions , he is pained when they are persecuted , in every distresse he is neere at hand to afforde succour : in health to saue them from sicknesse ; in sicknesse to saue thē from death : in trouble of estate and paine of body , to preserue them from a disquiet minde , in anguish of soule to vphold from fainting by despaire . in life to saue them from a thousand deaths , in death it selfe to deliver them from that death , which is to come . thus is christ beneficiall to vs in this life . but in the life to come he bestowes glory on the church : the saints shal be made perfectly righteous , perfectly glorious like vnto himselfe : where he is , there they shall be for ever to behold his glory , to be partakers of his ioie . you see then that christ every way deserues all our loue , seeing he is not only most excellent in himselfe , ch. . . but hath also done most good vnto vs. ch. . . whence it is no wonder if everie faithfull soule conclude as it is in this booke often , that christ is to it as a bundle of myrrh , a cluster of camphire , that he is faire and pleasant and wholy delectable . let vs nowe make some vse to our selues of this point . vse the first vse shal be for a reproofe of mens mis-guided affections , who loue any thing better then christ ; they are baptized into the name of christ , count it an honour to bee called christians , and if you will belieue them they exspect to be saued by christ , yet if a man looke into their practises , thei 'le appeare to any that can iudge , that they thinke of nothing lesse , care for nothing lesse then christ. that which the church confesseth of her owne negligence whereinto shee was misled , chap. . . [ they made me keeper of the vines but i kept not mine owne vine , ] shee attended on the fancies and pleasures of others , but not on her owne welfare , this we may apply vnto the profanenesse of most men , who haue vines , enough to keepe and dresse where about sathan and their owne lusts haue set them on worke , but for that true vine which is christ iesus , they take no pleasure at all , in resting themselues vnder his shadow , or tasting his pleasant fruit . men haue many things to busie their affections about , but while they tend other things they are vtterly carelesse of this one thing that is the chiefest . one man hath set vp preferment and greatnes in the world for the idoll which he worships , and all his time , meanes and thoughts are taken vp in prosecution of some plot wherevpon he hath contrived his farther advancement . another wallowes in all base pleasure , and so long as hee can content the beastly part of himselfe , his sensuall desires ; he thinkes himselfe well-apaid , hee enioies what he loues , and what needes he more . another loues nothing but mony and cattle , and trees , and earth , it is his happynes to say all this is mine , and when he is amidst those things he is amidst all his contentments . in short , every man hath his welbeloved in some kinde or other ; but it is not the beloued here spoken of . no ( my brethren ) these men loue not christ say they what they will , they make little reckoning of him . come to the triall of it and you shall see it so . the old saying's true , vbi amor , ibi oculus , where we like , there we looke ; or as christ saith , where our treasure is there will our hearts be also , mat. . . consider then your selues , in your thoughts what is it you most thinke of ? is it of christ , of his excellencies , of his benefits ? can you take pleasure in describing to your soules the glorious and gracious qualities of his person , musing attentiuely vpon such admirable excellencies , so farre surpassing all that in this world can be called either gracious or glorious ? are our hearts often warmed with heauenly ioie , when in our private meditations we recount with our selues what great things he hath done and will doe for our soules ? to thinke how mightelie he hath wrought in vs by his spirit , to make vs aliue , and keepe vs aliue , when we were once dead in sins ; how sweetly he perswades our will and stubborne affections to yeeld obedience , how forcible hee assists vs against most powerfull temptations ? can we reioice to thinke what happynes we haue in his favour , that he is a faithfull friend to vs in all our necessities , to whom wee may repaire for counsell and comfort ? doe his consolations refresh our spirits , that when sinne wounds vs , his stripes heale vs , when sathan accuses vs , he is our advocate to plead for vs ; when sorrowes and paines are vpon vs , he speakes peace vnto our soules , that in all wants & troubles we can surely pray vnto him , and poure out our soules into his bosome who only giues them rest ? doe we often meditate on that happynes he will one day bring vs vnto , when hee shall make vs like himselfe , most glorious in our bodies , most righteous in our soules , most blisfull in all , and that for ever ? be our thoughts ( my brethren ) on these things ? run our desires and wishes this way ? oh what strangers are such meditations from most mens hearts ! they thinke what they shall eate , what they shall put on , how they shall bring the yeare about ▪ how they shall pay this debt , purchase that field , that house , provide to raise such a sonne , to marry such a daughter , to grow rich , to get high places , titles , and offices , how to follow their pleasures and liue at hearts ease , how they may effect their wicked designes , oppresse a man , and his inheritance , revenge such wrongs as haue beene done them by their neighbours , and watch them an ill turne to be even with them , yea these be the great and mighty imployments of mens thoughts , where about they busie themselues , and often breake their sleepe , day and night , the whole weeke , the whole yeare , their mindes run vpon these things , when they be at church at praier , in hearing , at any good exercise the heart still wanders about such matters , euen at this present . is it not euen so my bretheren , which of vs can excuse our selues , and say my heart is innocent ? consider we againe the practises of men , whether they will stand with the loue they professe to christ : we will doe much for one that wee loue , especially if it be one that can doe much for vs. now what saith our saviour . if you loue me keepe my commandements . ioh. . . if christ be our beloved , his cōmandement ; must be so too . whosoever hates the law hats the lawgiver also . take a view then of mens practises , & we shall see , they make a very scorne of christ , & of his cōmandements . looke vpon them in their families , & you cannot finde any foot-steps of religion , no constant praier morning and evening : no reading of the word , no instruction of children and seruant , no duties of devotion whereby you shall know them from papists , atheists , or infidels . see them in the publike worship of god , and there is nothing but negligence and profanenesse , seldome at church if any businesse else be to be done , & when they are there , they are carelesse in praier , in hearing of the word read , or preached , nothing is remembred for which they are a ●ote the better . looke vpon them in their private conversation , & they are full of all vngodlines , vnrighteousnes , and vnsobernesse , horrible swearers , that cannot speake but they must blaspheme , profane despisers of gods word , and worship , deriders of preaching and preachers , in a word , enemies to all godlinesse and piety of life , which by reproaches , and vnchristian revilings , they seeke to blast in whōsoeuer they see it grow , extreamely ignorant , knowing nothing distinctly in matters of religion , not able with any vnderstanding to giue you a reasonable account in any point of their faith . in ciuill dealing mē that are vnfaithfull , vntrustie , vnmercifull . in their carriage prowd , disdainefull , luxurious , wanton and vncleane persons . may we belieue such men when they say christ is their beloued ? surely we cannot though they should sweare it . what ? loue christ , yet not know him , except it be by his name ; loue him ? and yet despise his seruants , his service , his ministers , make a iest at his word , and put off with a scoffe the counsels and rebukes which out of it are brought to them . loue christ ? yet set thy mouth against heauen , and in thy rage and hellish surie discharge thy blasphemies vpon his soule , his body , his blood , his wounds , his name , vpon all that is pretious in him , and not to be named but with devotion . wilt thou say thou louest christ , when thou hast no heart to thinke on him , to talke of him , to be in his presence , in the assemblies of gods people in publike , at sermon , at sacraments , at private praiers ? is he thy friend ? and yet art though loath to haue any thing to doe with him , in such places , in such exercises ? in fine wher 's thy loue to christ , whilst i see thy vngodly life , whereby thou dishonourest christ ▪ and shamest the name of a christian ? if by these practises we shall know thy loue of him , whereby i mervaile shall we know thy hatred of him . but , brethren ▪ be not deceiued , god will not so be mocked , delude thy selfe thou maist , but christ thou canst not with such faire glosses : it is not him whom thou louest , it is some thing els , thy pleasures , thy wealth , thy lusts , the world , the diuell . these be the things whereon thy affections dote , whereto thy desires are fastned , these things thou canst serue , let thē commande any thing , thou art at a becke to doe it , it is thy felicitie to be imploied by them . if any will crosse thee in these thy courses , admonish thee , rebuke thee , perswade thee , thou canst not brooke them , thou countest them thine enemies , that thus trouble thee ; when thou art entreated by thy loue to god , thy loue to christ , thy loue to his word , by thy loue to his ministers , by thy loue to thine own soule , by all things that are louely , & by all loues to deny vngodlines and worldly lusts , and to liue righteously , soberly , and godly . wouldst thou not be perswaded to reason ; didst thou indeed loue any of these , as in word thou professest to doe : but when all admonitions , reprehensions , exhortations , or whatsoever good coūsel given in the name of christ shall not yet be entertained for the loue of christ , but fall vpon the heart like the hammer on the anvill , that strikes but enters not , or like a ball from a wall be smitten backe into the face of him that sent it , with scorne and contempt of him , his message , and his minister too , say what thou wilt , thy tongue belyes thine heart , christ is not he whom thy soule loveth , when thou wilt doe nothing for his sake , take it for a conclusion , he hates christ that hates christianitie . vse vse is for exhortation that seeing wee haue so faire an obiect of loue as christ is , we would place our loue there and bestow it on him who best deserues it . this is a verie good point to put in practise . wee haue ignorant , and worldly mindes , wee know not the high excellencies of christ iesus and therefore doe not affect them . the world and worth of it we know and loue , but too well . againe sathan , and our wicked hearts doe blinde our eies , that wee cannot iudge aright of things ; it is with our mindes , as it is with our eyes , things that are a farre off though of greater & bigger circuite , yet seeme far lesse then those things that are neerer at hand . the earth , and earthly pleasures they are hard by , we taste see and handle them , we finde the sweetnesse of them by their present possession , their natures agree with ours , they are carnall , and so are wee , and therefore they will sort with our sensuall desires : but now for heauen and it's ioy ; for christ , and his graces , and glories , they are matters a far off , out of our kenne , we heare much talke of them in word , but our fleshly mindes cannot raise vp themselues so high , as to conceaue the true worth of them , by that which we heare spoken of them ; such spirituall things , fit not with our earthly dispositions , and therefore when we heare of them ( take away a few faint desires , that dye of themselues ) we haue otherwise indeed no great liking of them , we ful●●ll euery of vs more or lesse the prophecy of esay , foretelling how corruptly men would iudge touching christ and his conditions , euen wee thinke that he hath no forme nor comelinesse , and when wee shall see him there 's no such beauty that wee should desire him . looke how meanely the iewes esteemed of christ in his abasement vpon earth , so doe christians now iudge of him though in his glory , they see no such great excellency as men speake of in christ , in his graces , his word , his ministers his seruice , that they should be so much carried away with the loue of him , or his . how often doe men aske that question in their hearts , which the daughters of ierusalem asked the church , what is thy beloued more then another beloued , o thou fairest among women , what is thy beloued more then another beloued that thou dost so charge vs ? what need such adoe , such calling and seeking and enquiring of the watchmen of the citty ; such charging of vs to tell him to thee , if wee finde him is there any such singular dignity in this thy beloued aboue others ? so men in their hearts and tongues doe enquire strangely touching christ and religion , they wonder what great matters we finde in christ , and his seruice , what good they get by so much prayers , preaching , running to sermons , and hearing ; by such strictnesse in their liues , and all this for the loue of christ , & conscience of his commandements : they see not where the benefit is , and it euen angers them that others should admire what they see not , for any thing they perceiue grace desires not so mmch law as god ; the communion of christ hath not so much delight in it , as that wi●h they call goodfellowship ; filthy pleasures rellish sweeter , then the ioyes of the spirit , and peace of a good conscience ; they can loue the world & the things in the world , bee it an impure strumpet , the very image of the divell aswell , nay rather then iesus christ. the brightnes of gods glory , & expesse image as he is called of his person , this doctrine of louing christ soundes strangely in the eares of carnall men ; wherefore that wee may make a right vse of this instruction two things are to be obtained before we shall loue christ. knowledge of christ , what are his excellencies in himselfe and benefits toward vs. this knowlede is the mother of affection , what the eye sees not the heart rues not ; and t is true on the other side , what the eye sees not the heart ioyes not . wherefore all meanes must bee vsed to get a distinct knowledge of christ , in all the forenamed particulars . e perfectly we shall not know him in this life , neither shall we perfectly loue him , but so farre as the word hath described him to vs we may and must know him . holinesse of heart : for christ , and all things in him are holy , heauenly , and spirituall , and our affections will never take to them , till they bee made like to them heauenly and spirituall , 't is indeed naturall to loue some things , but to loue god that 's from grace , this affection is found only in the church , 't is the soule calls christ wellbeloued , those that are regenera●e , whose hearts are sanctified , those virgins are spoken of in the third verse of the first chapter , who haue smelt the odor of the sweet perfumes , & oyntments of the grace of christ shed abroad in their hearts : these loue christ , and none els . when thus the eyes of our mindes are enlightned , and our sinfull hearts changed , then shall wee begin vnfainedly to loue & admire those treasures of knowledge and wisdome those exceeding riches of grace & glory which are stored in the person of our lord iesus christ : wee shall then looke vpon all that good is the world which before we loued and magnified , now comparing it with christ wee shall conclude with the apostle , the things which were advantage to mee , the same i cannot loose for christs sake , and iudge them to bee dung that i may winne christ. it wil be with vs as it was with the daughters of ierusalem before spoken of , who at first ignorantly and somewhat scornefully asked the spouse what was her beloved , that shee sought so much after him , but when shee had at large described him in all his excellencies , and told them : this is my beloued , this is my loue o daughters of ierusalem , now their eyes are opened , and their hearts touched , they are as desirous to goe seeke him as the spouse her selfe and now they begin to enquire of her o thou fairest among women , whether is thy beloued gone , whether is he turned asiae , that we may goe and seeke him with thee chap. . . now the lord open our eyes by his spirit , that wee may cleerely see and ardently loue christ , to whom with the father , &c. finis notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e gell. noct . attic. lib. . cap. . notes for div a -e iob. . . notes for div a -e . cor. . . notes for div a -e act. . . rev. . . . ch. . . psal. . . ioh. . . heb. . . ioh. . . coloss. . phil. . . mat. . act . revel . . . ioh. . . prov. . . esa. . . mat. . . rev. . . mat. . . . ioh. . esay . . . cant. . . heb. . . phil. . ● . cant. . an addition to the apology for the two treatises concerning infant-baptisme, published december , in which the author is vindicated from unjust criminations in the page of the book of mr. robert baille, minister of glasgow, intituled anabaptisme and sundry materiall points concerning the covenant, infants-interest in it, and baptisme by it, baptism by an unbaptized person, dipping, erastianism and church-government, are argued, in a letter, now enlarged, sent in september , to him / by john tombes . .. tombes, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing t ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) an addition to the apology for the two treatises concerning infant-baptisme, published december , in which the author is vindicated from unjust criminations in the page of the book of mr. robert baille, minister of glasgow, intituled anabaptisme and sundry materiall points concerning the covenant, infants-interest in it, and baptisme by it, baptism by an unbaptized person, dipping, erastianism and church-government, are argued, in a letter, now enlarged, sent in september , to him / by john tombes . .. tombes, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by hen. hills for hen. crips, and lodowick lloid ..., t. brewster, and g. moule ..., london : . reproduction of original in bodleian library. eng baillie, robert, - . -- anabaptisme. tombes, john, ?- . -- apology or pleas for the two treatises concerning infant baptisme. infant baptism -- early works to . a r (wing t ). civilwar no an addition to the apology for the two treatises concerning infant-baptisme, published december . . in which the author is vindicated tombes, john f the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the f category of texts with or more defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an addition to the apology for the two treatises concerning infant-baptisme , published december . . in which the author is vindicated from . unjust criminations in the . page of the book of mr. robert baillie minister of glasgow , intituled anabaptisme . and sundry materiall points concerning the covenant , infants-interest in it , and baptisme by it , baptism by an unbaptized person , dipping , erastianism and church-government , are argued , in a letter ( now enlarged ) sent in september . to him , by john tombes . b. d. london , printed by hen. hills for hen. crips , and lodowick lloid , in popes-head alley , t. brewster , and g. moule at the three bibles at the west end of pauls . errata . epist. dedic. edius reade edingh . page . line . visible r. invisible , p. . l. penul . needlesly r. heedlesly , p. l. . obhorrency r. abhorrency , p. . l. . we r. he l. know r. knew , p. ▪ l. examination r. crimination , p. . l. . divert r. derive , p. . in margin all in r. allin , p. . l. . baptizeter r. baptizetur , p. . l. considerately r. considerate , p. . l. . desire r. devise , p. . l. . credible r. incredible . l . it sufficient r. insufficient , l. . right r. rite , p. . l. . r. nor mr. p. . margin design . r. de syn. p. . l. . all r. ill , p. . l . a r. no , p. . l. . refers r. reserves , p. l. . scoffical r. scoptical , p. . l. . no type . r. no less to the right honourable bulstrode whitlock serjeant at law , john lisle esq richard keble serjeant at law , lords commissioners of the great seal of england ; major generall thomas harrison ; edmund prideaux esq atturney general for the state . out of a love to truth , and respect to my engagement by solemn covenant i framed , and out of desire to prevent ( if possible ) the oppression of men , for holding a truth , i printed ( some years since ) two treatises and an append●x to them , and after that an apology for them , with a postscript ; which were presented to some of your hands by me . finding that great hatred is against such as dissent from the assemblies determinations , specially in the two points of baptism , & discipline , ( which this writing treats of ; ) and those that shelter them from violence ; and that a great part of the quarrel between england and scotland is , for not establishing presbyterial government , with rigour , which is thus expressed in the scottish assemblies reply to the 〈◊〉 declaration , edius . . julii . sess. . that jesus christ be lord over his own house , and that his ministers keep courts and exercise jurisdiction and discipline , and all the censures of the kirk from the lowest to the highest , in his name only , against all that depart from and do oppose the truth ; or that walk loosely as doth not become the gospell : and hoping this writing to one of the chief presbyterians in scotland ▪ may contribute something to discover the unreasonablenesse of their violent proceedings in their way ; and some truths , not commonly discerned ; i have yielded to the publishing thereof , in this sad time of a bloody warre , raised much from the forementioned hatred . such as it is , i humbly present to your honours , in testimony of my thankfulnesse for the favour and pitty to me , vouchsafed by some of your honors in conferring on me , & others in being eminently instrumental in the quiet settling of me in this place ; in which , after plunderings , and many tossings up and down , i have had some abiding : wherein i still endeavour to be serviceable to the publique , and to acquit my self your honours humble and devoted servant , john tombes . ledbury-hospitall in herefordshire sept. . . to the reverend the moderator and commissioners in the next nationall assembly of the church of scotland , or the next provincial assembly unto which glasgow in the kingdome of scotland belongs ; the complaint of john tombes presbyter , humbly sheweth , that in pursuance of the solemne covenant taken by me to endeavour reformation in gods worship , according●● the word of god ; i published two treatises about infant-baptisme at london december . . and an apology for them in august . ●●d that in the year . a book intituled anabaptisme was published at london , by robert bayly minister of glasgow : wherein i was wronged by many grievous false accusations : concerning which i have ( as near as i could , ) followed the rule of christ ma● . . , , . as may be perceived by the close of the letter to mr. bayly himself : for after i had advertised him by mr. henry s●●dd●r , of the injury he had done me , i wrote to him july . . which letter was delivered to mr. samuel rutherford sept. . . with directions how to send back . and in the year . i wrote a letter to mr. rutherford , to certify me what became of my writing delivered to him ? with desire to know what mr. bayly would do to right me ; yet after so long waiting , i find no remorse or righting of me made by the said mr. robert bayly : and therefore i do devolve the matter into your hands , being taken for the church , to which such complaints should be made , according to the rule mat. . . and do expect to have right done by you to him and me , as to a fellow-christian , — presbyter , — and covenanter with you , as is meet in such a cause concerning the truth of god , and innocency of your brother . and forasmuch as the charge against him and proof may be evidently seen in this letter to him , and his and my writings , ( which [ if you please to take notice of , ] you may easily come by ; ) i presume you will not expect my personal appearance before you to pursue this complaint : but of your selves examine the matter , as i conceive the rule of christ binds you ; besides the engagements towards a fellow-covenanter in the sixth article of the sol●mne league and covenant : and permit your fellow-servant to attend the work of christ , in the place where he is seated ; who shall pray for your welfare ; and continue your brother and fellow-servant in christ , john tombes . london sept. . . to the reverend , mr. samuel rutherfurd professor at st. andrews in scotland . sir , anno . was delivered to you a letter of mine to mr. robert bayly of glasgow your fellow-commissioner , which you undertook as i am told to send to him , and not hearing any thing from mr. bayly in answer to it , anno . i sent a letter to you to i●treate a word from you , what became of that letter with directions to what place in london your letter might be sent for me ; of which likewise i have heard nothing . forasmuch as without publishing something a blot indelible may lie on me and ( which is more ) on the truth i assert for my sake , and that in after ages when mr. bayly's book shall be read , and those false criminations found therein without any vindication of mine , and i perceive by experience that such false reports as have been vented in mr. edwards his gangr●n● ( upon whose credit honorius reggius hath blazed them in a latin writing ) and in mr. bayly's disswasives have made many men undeservedly odious , and such reports vented in pulpits upon their credit have been the bellowes that did blow the fire of warre , which hath to the rejoicing of malignants and grief of godly persons wasted your and our countrey , and mr. cotton of n. e. thought meet to print an apology for himself and the churches there to vindecate himself from mr. bayly's aspersions in one part of his disswasive , i have thought it necessary to vindicate my self in this , and have sent it to you , being one that i conceive cordially affected with the breaches that are among the godly & studious of truth and peace , that you may impart this as you may opportunely to some synod in your countrey , and indeavour , as conscience and covenant i think bind you , in the most prudent way you can to take of the injury of mr bayly ; and which is the chief thing i aim at and humbly desire , that there may be some course taken effectually to prevent such injurious misrepresentations of mens tenents , and practises in pulpits and presses , that so ( if the lord shall vouchsafe such a mercy ) dissenters at last may in a calme and amicable way debate differences to the healing of our breaches : which is the prayer and aime of lemster in herefordshire decem. . . your fellow-servant and brother in christ , john tombes . the contents . sect. . of the first crimination , that i spoile all infants of all interest in the covenant of grace . sect. . of the second crimination , that i make circumcision to the jewes a seale only of earthly and temporall priviledges . sect. . of the third crimination , that i 〈◊〉 the jewish infants all right to the new covenant , 〈◊〉 they become ●●●tuall believers , from whence occasion is taken to shew the insufficiency of mr. gerees shift in expounding the words of the directory [ the promise is made to believers and their seed , ] and the insufficiency of mr. marshals proof , of connexion between the seal and the covenant , from gods institution ; and mr. bailies from the nature of the terms . sect. . of the fourth crimination , that i give a power to unbaptized persons to baptize others . sect. . of the fifth crimination , that i make apologies for the worst of the anabaptists . sect. . of the sixth crimination , inveighing against the first reformers . sect. . of the seventh crimination , inveighing against the assembly at westminster . sect. . of the eighth crimination , inveighing against the church of scotland . sect. . of the nineth crimination , inveighing against mr. marshall . sect. . of the tenth crimination , of inveighing against mr. thomas goodwin . sect. . of the eleventh crimination , of invectives against others . sect. . of the twelfth crimination , that i esteem baptisme an unnessary rite . sect. . of the thirteenth crimination , that i am carel●sse of my own baptism . sect. . of the fourteenth crimination , that i am unwilling to joine with any of the anabaptists churches , and they unwilling to baptize non-members . sect. . of the fifteenth crimination , my allowing frequent rebaptization . sect. . of the sixteenth crimination , that i make it lawfull for persons unbaptized to partake of the lords supper . sect. . of the seventeenth crimination , that i am a compleat erastian , wherein reason is given of my doub● , that in scripture no such juridical excommunication is appointed as is now contended for . sect. . of the eighteenth crimination , that i avow , no scand●-lous professor ought to be kept from the lords table . sect. . of the nineteenth crimination of me , that i hold no censure of excommunication . sect. . of the twentieth crimination , that i hold christ hath not appointed any particular government for his church . sect. . of the one and twentieth crimination , that i hold that the government of the church belongs to the magistrate only . sect. . of my new way , and boldnesse . sect. . of my silence concerning dipping , and of the novelty and insufficiency of sprinkling , instead of baptizing . sect. . the conclusion , requiring reparation of the wrong done to me by mr. bayly . to the reverend and worthy master robert baylie , minister at glasgow in scotland . sir , in your book intituled anabaptismi , you charge me falsly in these following accusations chap. . page . you say , in these following things he flies as high , as any civil and discreet anabaptist i have met with . . in spoyling christian infants not only of baptisme , but of all interest in the covenant of grace . and in the margine , and table in the end of your book , you say , he spoyles all infants of all interest in the covenant of grace . . in making circumcision a seal to the jews onely of earthly and temporal priviledges . . in denying to jewish infants all right to the new covenant , till in their riper years they become actuall believers . sect i. of the first crimination , that i spoile all infants of all interest in the covenant of grace . to prove these accusations which you so expresly charge me with , and tend to make your adversary odious , ( which it seems you made your businesse , and not to clear truth ; ) you referre the reader to the letters a a page . where you cite one passage of my apology page . which doeth directly deny the first accusation , and where the passage of mr. marshall you alledge for proof of it , ( a most unreasonable way to prove a mans position by his antagonists conceit of it , as , that calvin made god the author of sin , because bellarmin accused him of it , ) is sufficiently answered : yea in my post script to mr. blake in the end of my apology sect. . i charge master blake of unjust crimination of me in this , and challenge mr. marshall , mr. vines , mr. calamy , and now your self to make good that charge if you can . and yet you are not asham●d to say , pag. . all our adversaries deny to all infants all right in god , all interests in his promises , and covenant , as much as they do to turks , and pagans . and chap. . page , . after you had charged this accusation on others ; in the close you say , this makes them uncertain what to say of infants dying before conversion . some save them all , ( which is contrary to what you say page ; ) others incline to the damnation of them all ; others professe the uncertainty of the thing , whether infants before their conversion be within the kingdome of satan , or that of god . and for proof of this last you referre the reader to the letter k ; and there you alledge my words in my apology page , . which speak not at all of the uncertainty of the thing you were speaking of , to wit , the salvation or damnation of infants dying before conversion , but the contrary , saying expresly , that every infant is either in the visible kingdome of god , or of satan , that is , elect , or reprobate . and for the certainty of the subject , i conceive neither you nor i , nor any on earth are certain what child of a believer is elect , or reprobate . sure i am mr. marshall in his sermon page ▪ saith , charity is not tyed to conclude certainly of any of them , although in the beginning of his sermon page . he would ground the salvation of all the infants of believers dying in their infancy , on gods promise , to be the god of believers , and of their seed . besides , my words in my apology page , . which you alledge , speak onely of infants belonging visibly to the kingdome of the devil or god ; and i still deny that they belong to either visibly , untill they make their profession , according to the constitution of the visible church of christians , which it behoved you to disprove , and not to misreport my words as you do . sect. ii. of the second crimination , that i make circumcision to the jewes , a seal onely of earthly and temporall priviledges . as for your second accusation , you bring onely mr. marshals words which onely declare his suspicion ; yet so unreasonable and groundless , as one might wonder any man should have the face to draw me into a suspicion of that , the contrary whereof is delivered in my exercitation page . and very often in my exercitation and examen of his sermon ; in which i still make the covenant made with abraham gen. . which circumcision confirmed , to be a mixt covenant , containing both spirituall and temporal promises . and yet you expresly accuse me of the contrary ; & against my plain words prove your charge , onely by master marshals suspition expressed in this manner ; what your meaning is in this expression , i cannot tell ; it hath an untoward look , as if the meaning were , &c. which was unreasonable in him to raise such a jealousie of me for citing onely a passage in that so approved treatise of cameron that learned scot , de triplici foedere , th. . ( which was also much approved at heidelberg ) by the publisher of his works according to an order in a synod of the french churches ; as to be stiled in cameron's icon , accurratissimae theses ; and they are now translated into english by mr. samuel bolton , and printed at the end of his treatise , of the true bounds of christian freedom with this commendation ( too precious to be any longer concealed , or hid under the shell of an unknown tongue . ) and yet these words were cited by me so warily page . of my exercitation as that i say , and if we may believe mr. cameron ; yet mr. marshall had so much ingenuity , as to say of me in that place page . . of his defence , it is too grosse a thing to imagine of god , and so expresly contrary to the word , that untill you own it , i will not impute it to you : which words you leave out in your allegation against me from mr. marshall , whether needlesly or fraudulently , i leave it to your own conscience to consider . sect. iii. of the third crimination , that i deny to the jewish infants all right to the new covenant till they become actuall believers , from whence occasion is taken to shew the insufficiency of mr. gerees shift in expounding the words of the directory [ the promise is made to believers and their seed ] and the insufficiency of mr. marshals proof of connexion between the seal and covenant from god's institution , and mr. baylies from the nature of the termes . as for the third accusatio● , you bring not a word to prove it , yet you often charge sometimes all your adversaries , as in chap. . pag. . sometimes the principall of them ( among whom i assure my self , you reckon me ) with it , as when you say , pag. . ch. . the ground of this reason is granted by the principal of our adversaries , who avow their exclusion of infants from baptisme upon this ground mainely , that they believe they are excluded from the covenant of grace , remission of sins , the saving grace of the spirit , till in the years of d●scretion they be brought actually to believe , which thing i do expresly deny in my exercitation pa. . with obhorrency from it , and examen page . and page . i say , it were a madnesse to go about to put them out of the covenant of grace . you are often told in my examen as page , , , . and many more places , that i avow exclusion of infants from baptism upon this ground mainly , that there is no institution of it gathered by precept or apostolical example , and therefore it is will-worship : as for a command of circumcision i conceive it is a brogated , and so can be no rule now about baptism ; and the maintaining that a command of circumcision sti●l binds us ( as mr. marshall doth in his sermon page , , . ) is the most manifest heresie of any , as being condemned in the first councel by the apostles , acts . . & . . indeed to shew the weaknesse of mr. marshalls argument thus framed , the infants of believing parents are within the covenant of grace , therefore they are to partake of the seale of the covenant , which in mr. marshals language is all one with baptisme : i did say that i did conceive the antecedent of his enthymeme not true , examen part . sect. . page . conceiving that as your practise is , so mr. marshall intended to defend this conclusion ; all the infants born of a believer by profession are to be baptized according to ordinary rule , and so i expressed my selfe in my examen part . sect. . exercit. page . and elsewhere , and then his antecedent must be thus , all the infants born of a believer are within the covenant of grace , or else his argument is manifestly inconcludent ; if we would prove , all infants of believers are to be baptized , because some onely are in the covenant of grace . now i know not how to conceive that mr. marshall meant any other , then the covenant of saving grace ( of which i have given reasons not yet answered by mr. marshall , in my examen page . and could adde more if it were needful ) and that the believers infants were in the covenant of saving grace in that god hath made that promise to them . and in this sense i denied this proposition , all the infants of a believer are within the covenant of grace , and disproved it so fully in my examen part . sect. . that mr. marshall renounceth that proposition in that sense page . of his defence , and then betakes himself to this shift , to understand it of the outward covenant as he calls it , in which sense i have proved in my apology sect. . his first argument to be meer trifling , and his speeches to be full of equivocation , or ambiguity , which i have also further proved in my postscript in answer to mr. bl●ke sect. . mr. geree being inforced to deny that proposition in that sense , and being pressed by me with the words of the directory , [ that the promise is made to believers and their seed ] he shifted it off in his vindiciae paedobaptismi page . by interpreting the words of the directory thus , this is to be presumed by men out of charity , till they discover the contrary , that all the infants of believers have the inward graces of the covenant , which i proved could not be the sense of the words of the directory in my apol●gy sect. . especially from the term [ made ] which imports gods act , not mans charitable presumption . now what doth mr. geree reply hereto ? in his vindiciae vindic●arum chap. . page . he alters the words of the directory thus , that the promise is to believers and their seed , leaving out the word [ made ] upon which my argument rested , and then page . tells me , the quaery is in what sense and in what respect children of b●lievers are said to be in the covenant of grace , whereas the quaery is in what sense the directory meant these words [ the promise is made to believers and their seed ] not in what sense either in gen. . . or rom. . . or acts . . children of believers are said to be in the covenant of grace . and whereas mr. geree in the same book cha. . page . complains of my words in the epistle dedicatory of my apology , that the doctrine of the directory is disavowed by two of my most eminent antagonists , meaning himself and mr. marshall , i have , and am further ready to justify that speech , and if many of the assembly have assured him in private , that they intended the expressions questioned by me in no other sense then he expounded them , i would have them know , that either they must alter the words as mr. geree doth , not reading them as they are printed , and as mr. marshall in his defence page . mr. geree vindic. paedobap . page . reads them , or else those assembly men must make a new dictionary for us to understand their language by afore any man that understands common english will understand them so . and whereas he would have by this one examination men iudge of all the rest , i am contented with it , provided that men by his superficial and shifting dealing in this judge of all the rest . but to returne , as i denyed the antecedent in mr. marshalls enthymeme , so i denied the consequence page . and did more then make some v●litatio● , i proved by a just dispute that the proposition is not true , all that are in the covenant of grace must be sealed , and though mr. marshall page . of his defence , say somewhat to prove it from gods will gen. . , , , . yet what is said there is only of circumcision , nothing of baptisme , and the word [ therefore ] upon which mr. marshalls proof rests is in the hebrew {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} which may be and is translated otherwise , as by the tig●r●●es et tu by parreus tu autem , by piscator tu vere , &c. and the proposition is manifestly false in mr. marshalls sense , yea he granted page , . that the formal reason of their being circumcised was the command of god , which i truely observed and proved in my apology in the epistle dedicatory and in the apology it self page . overthrows his argument from the covenant to the seale , which rests on this , that such as received the initial seal , received it because they were in the covenant , which are mr. marshalls words in his defence page . you in your anabaptisme chap. . page . say , your proposition is grounded on the nature of the terms , which you never go about to prove but dictate thus : the major , [ whoever have right to the chief promises of the new testament , they have right to the first sacrament of the new testament , if the lord have not put some impediment to their participation of that sacrament ] is grounded on the nature of the terms of the preposition the chief promises of the new testament , and the first sacrament , this is the sign and seal , that the thing signified . the reason proceeds not from every thing signified to every sign but from the chief thing signified to the first signe . give me leave to tell you that i seldome meet with a passage that hath more absurdity then this of yours . . you set not down right the terms of your own proposition , which are not [ the chief promises of the new testament , and the first sacrament ] but [ having right to the chief promises of the new testament , and having right to the first sacrament , if the lord have not put some impediment to their participation of that sacrament ] as if you had forgotten so soon or could not analyse your own proposition . . you tell us [ this is the sign and seale , that the thing signified ] as if this were the nature of the terms . but what an illogical conceit is this ? logicians call a reason from the nature of the terms , when the terms are included , the one in conceptu quidditativo alterius , so as that the one cannot be conceived without the other . now may not the chief promises of the new testament be conceived without the first sign and seale ? did not god make the chief promises of the new and old testament before ever any sign or seale was appointed , much more before baptisme ? did not god make the chief promise {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} tit. . . which we translate before the world began , most rig●tly as i conceive dr. ●wisse vind● . grat . lib. . par . . dig . . cap. . referres to that in paradise gen . . your own mr. dicksor , either to that or to gods promise to christ afore the world was made , all i meet with make it antecede any first signe or seal of the old or new testament ? now how is there a connexion between terms from the nature of them , whereof one may not only be conceived , but be also existent both de facto and d●iure without the other ? if the terms were [ having the chief promises of the new testament , and having the first sacrament ] yet there is no such connexion from the nature of the terms . innumerable may have , and have the chief promises of the new testament , that have not the first sacrament , et vice versa . else you must hold worse positions then the papists that none but baptized persons have or can have the chief promises of the new testament , and that every baptized person hath the chief promises of the new testament . there is lesse connexion from the nature of the terms between the having right to the chief promises of the new testament , & having right to the first sacrament of the new testament . for if you meane it of right before god , thousands may have right in gods election and covenant with christ , that are not in being , that are in their mothers womb , that are yet among infidels uncalled : have these right to the first sacrament ? if you mean it of right in facie ecclesiae onely , then i grant the proposition is true : but your minor hath clean another sense then your words and proofs import you conceived of it : however this right comes meerly from gods institution , which is to be the rule of the churches judging and administrators action , and that is not from the right to the chief promises , but from profession of faith arising from gods will not the nature of the terms . there is no essential connexion between them constitutive or consecutive , neither is one of the definition or essential property to the other : and god hath much more plainly put a barre against infant-baptisme then infant-communion , not only in that there is neither expresse precept nor example for it in scripture , but also the very in●titution excludes them , appointing it only to disciples mat. . . putting believing before baptisme mark . . & in practise requiring it act. . . besides the image of it in all ages of the church requiring profession of faith of some for them even in the baptisme of infants . but you shew the nature of the terms in these words , this is the sign and seal , that the thing signified . by your logick then if the chief promises of the new testament be to be defined you would define them to be the thing signified by the first sacrament of the new testament : which were to define ignotum per ignotius , and by that which is meerly extrinsecal to it . a promise is an action : the thing signified by the first sacrament is not only something to come but also something past as the death , burial , resurrection of christ in baptisme rom. . , . col. . . the thing promised is something we are to have , the promise is gods act , the first sacrament the administrators act . how inept a definition is such a definition in which the genus doth not praedic●●i in quid on the definitum , ●or the whole definition is reciprocal with the definitum , besides other defects ? but it maybe you meant that it is of the nature of the first sacrament to be a sign and s●ale of the chief promises of the new testament . were this so , you should not rightly argue : for then the right to the promises should be derived from the seal , not to the seale from the promise , if the promise be of the nature of the seale , and not e●contra : wher●as you say that your reason proceeds from the chief thing signifyed to the first sign . but how can you or any make this good that it is the nature of the first sacrament only ( for you exclude the second expressely after in these words , nor do we 〈◊〉 but of the 〈…〉 ) to be a signe and seale of the chief promises of the new testament ? is not the second sign as wel a sign and seal of them as the first ? besides what is the term [ seale ] there but a metaphor ? and is it not absurd to make a metaph●r of the nature of a term , which doeth not shew what a thing is but what it is like , contrary to the rule of logicians ? scheibler . ●op . ●a . . num . . definitio non sit ex verbis metaphoricis . ita aristot. top. lib. . cap. . sect k● ker●● syst. logi● . lib. . sect. . cap. . &c. yet how absurdly is a seale of the covenant made the genus in the definition of a sacrament being but a metaphor , and books and sermons stuffed with collections of duties and priviledges about the sacraments from a meer metaphor ? a thing i am assured worthy lamentation when i consider the trouble it hath brought to many consciences , and disquiet in the church . but were it granted that the term , signe or seal were of the nature of the first sacrament , how doth it appear that it is the nature of the sacrament to signifie gods promise to us rather then our promise to god ? though i deny not but baptisme signifies and in a sense seales gods promises to us , as may be seen in my former writings , yet so farre as i am able to discern the chief and primary use is to signifie our profession and promise to god , and therefore it is required as our act and duty , and therein we are said to put on christ . and why then should we not rather say , that it is the nature of baptisme to be a sign or seale of our profession , and then we have a better argument from the nature as you speak , from the use , as i would speak , of the first sacrament to prove that infants are not to be baptized , then that they are . the trueth is sacraments are not signes natural but positive , and so have no nature to sign or seale but by institution , and therefore there 's no connexion , or right between the covenant and seal , as they speak , from the nature of the tenns , but by gods institution . and therefore mr. marshall did more considerately ascribe it to gods will , then you do to 〈◊〉 it from the nature of the terms , you miscarry as much in that which followes when you say , the reason proceeds not from every thing signified to every sign , but from the chief thing signified to the first sign : yet before you expressed the nature of the terms thus , the one is the sign , the other the thing signified , and you give no reason why there should be more connexion between the chief things signified , and the first sign , then the not chief things signified , and the second , nor do i know by what rule you proceed in making some promises of the new testament chief , and some not : it follows , some of the blessings which circumcision diaseal belonged to melchizedeck , to lo● to job , and others who were not so farre as we reade circumcised , but the main promise sealed by circumcision , in thy seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed , the messias comming of the posterity of abraham , isaac and jacob , the covenant of grace as it was administred under the figure of the ceremoniall law did belong to the people of israel alone , ●nd to the proselytes who joined themselves to their body . you intimate truly that the reason of circumcising infants was not taken from the common right of believers to the covenant of grace , but from the end god had in signifying christ to come of abraham , which is a good evidence that baptizing infants now hath not the same reason that circumcising of infants had then , and so all your argument from the analogy between infant-baptisme and infant-circumcision from the like reason of both falls to the g●ound : but sure the main promise of the new testament did belong to 〈◊〉 , lot and job as much as to believers now , and if righteousnesse by faith be sealed by circumcision , as you expressely teach page . from rom. . . then the main promise sealed by circumcision belonged to melchizeck , lot and job , and so if there be such a connexion between the chief promise and the first seale they should have been circumcised as well as the jewes : and it is as strange to me how you can make the promise of the messias comming from abraham belonging to proselytes more then to them . but this is enough to give a taste of your manner of disputing . but i must follow you , you go on . sect. iv. of the fourth crimination , that i give a power to unbaptized persons to baptize others . in giving a power to unbaptized persons to baptize others . for proof of this you referre the reader to the letters bb page . and there i find one passage of mr. marshall● , which only declares his own conceit , and one passage of mine from my apology page . which speaks not at all of that point , but of another , whether in any case an unbaptized person may receive the lords supper . as for that you charge me with , i remember not where i have spoken to it in my printed writings . but for the thing it self . if no continuance of adult-baptisme can be proved , and baptisme by such baptized persons is wanting , yet i conceive , what ma●y protestant writers do yield , when they are pressed by the papists to shew the calling of the first reformers , that after an universal corruption the necessity of the thing doth justify the persons that reforme though wanting an ordinary , regular calling ( which thing i find fully avouched by the ministers sent to oxford in their account given to the parliament page , . ) will justify in such a case both the lawfulnesse of a ministers baptizing , that hath not been rightly baptized himself , and the sufficiency of that baptisme to the person so baptized . and this very thing , that in a case where a baptized minister cannot be had , it is lawfull for an unbaptized person to baptize , and his baptisme is valid , is both the resolution of aquinas parte . q. . art . . and lanchius an eminent protestant comment . in ephes. . . loc. . part . . cap. . num . . quaeritu● an is possit baptizare eos quos ad christum convert● , cum ipse nunquam fuerit baptizatus baptismo aquae ? non dubito quin possit , & vicissim curare , ut ipse ab alio ex illis a se conversis baptizetur . ratio est : quia minister est verb : , à christo extra ordinem excitatus : eoque ut talis minister , potest cum illius eccles●olae consens● , symm●stam constituere , & ab eo ut baptizerer curare . whereby you may perceive that this is no new truth , that an unbaptized person ●ay in some case baptize another , and he baptize him being baptized of him . and if you hold it so hainous a positier , you might do well to answer mr. spil●●ry his reasons in his book intituled the sa●nt interest , chiefly page . which book you cite in the third and fourth chapters of your anabaptisme , though in your third chapter you mistake , in alleadging words as mr. spilsberie's , which are in the preface to the book made by mr. cox. sect. v. of the fifth crimination , that i make apologies for the worst of the anabaptists . in making apologies for the worst of the anabaptists even those of munster . and in the margin and the table in the end of your book , you say of me , he is a friend to the worst anabaptists , and injurious to all who oppose them . and for proofe of this you referre the reader to the letters cc , where is one passage cited out of my apology page . which hath not a word of apology or friendship for , or towards any of the evil practises of the anabaptists ; but you might have read in the next page before , a professed abhorring of their wicked practises , and judging them worse in them , then they would be in others not so baptized . as for the words you alledge , they contain onely a declaration of my suspension of my judgement concerning some things related of them for reasons there alledged . in which suspension i am the more confirmed by your palpably ●●righteous , if not malicious dealing with me in these accusations . and i conceive your , mr. marshal's , and other paedobaptists dealing in mis-reporting of me and others will better serve for their apology , then my words . 't is true , i endeavour to remove that prejudice against the truth of antipaedobaptisme , which your , and other mens bitter writings and preachings create to it in your charging the miscarriages of muncer , and at munster and some others upon the doctrine it self , never considering that now for a long time no such miscarriages are charged upon them justly , they live as peaceably as other men , their doctrine disclaimes them , the like miscarriages have been in removing other evils that are confessed to be such , as in the iconoclasts , antiprelatists , &c. which you would think it to be unrighteous to charge on those that have sought the removing of images , prelacy and ceremonies . why then do you deale so unjustly with others , forgetting that golden rule of christ mat. . . whatsoever ye would that men should do to you , do you even so to them : for this is the law and the prophets ? whereto let me adde that reading lately in grimstones general history of the netherlands lib. . pag. . that the inquistion of spain advised the king of spain in these words art . . they shall hire at our charge thieves and spoylers of churches and images , whose offences shall be by all the world imputed to the rebells , by some subtil meanes , and so we shall vanquish them . i conceived my speech in my apology page . ( which you interpret as very hainous ) considerately , when i said , i do count the story of the anabaptists to contain in it many things , the true reasons of which , and the true knowledge of the circumstances concerning them will not appear till the day of the revelation of the righteous iudgement of god . and i confesse it makes me somewhat suspicious that in these daies by jesuiticall emissaries horrid opinions , and unruly practises are vented ; and attempted to make the party that are for reformation , and truth at this day odious to the world . sect. vi . of the sixth crimination inveighing against the first reformers . and invectives against the best that oppose them ; the first reformers . for proof hereof you referre the reader to the letters dd page . where is alledged one passage of my apology in page . which hath not a word of invectivenesse against the first reformers , much lesse any invective against the best that opposed the anabaptists at munster , but only in as mild an expression as i could desire , a declaration of my opinion , that the reformed churches have beene to blame that they never yielded to reforme paedobaptisme in a regular way . will not you say the saxon churches have been to blame in not taking away of images out of churches , the english churches in not removing prelacy and ceremonies ? yet you would think he wronged you , that should say , that in that speech you made an invective against those churches . yet this is your dealing with me . sect. vii . of the seventh crimination inveighing against the assembly at westminster . the assembly at westminister . for proof hereof you referre the reader to the letters e e page . where is cited one passage out of my apology page . which hath not a word of exception against any man , much lesse of invectivenesse against the assembly at westminster : only it contains the expression of my belief that the ablest of the assembly contrived mr. marshalls book , and my wish , that it were declared whether the paedobaptists would stick to it or any other work : which i conceive a reasonable wish , finding the proteus-like inconstancy of paedobaptists in many points of the dispute between us , particularly in the chief argument from circumcision and the covenant gen. . to infant-baptism , one forming the argument one way , another another way , one deriving the connexion between the covenant and initial seal from the nature of the terms , another from gods will , one ascribing an interest in the outward covenant only to all infants of believers , another ascribing an interest to them in the inward covenant also according to charitable presumption , another conditionally , another asserting the covenant of grace to belong to them for the most part , one grounding infant-baptisme on the judgement of charity , another denying that sufficient : and requiring a judgement of faith , one stating the question concerning all infants of believers , another concerning some only , one interpreting cor. . . of federal holinesse , another of real holinesse , one waving the argument from succession of baptisme to circumcision , another avouching it , with many other differences , which tend to the wearying of a disputant and the e●ud●●g of a reader that desires to find truth , and to spend time in examining what is fixed , not to lose it in disputing against that which one will own , but it m●y be most will disclaim . what the assembly have done in this matter doth not yet answer this wish . what is said in the direstory , it may be well doubted whether assembly-men now hold , by that which hath pa●●ed between me and mr. marshal and mr. geree , about the proposition , [ the promise is made to believers and their seed , ] what is said in their ●dvice concerning a confession of faith ch. . art. . is so farre from satisfying , that it is yet a riddle to me how infant-baptisme can be drawn from ge● . . , . with gal. . , . which i remember not alledged by any paedobaptists since i entered on the dispute , save what i heard from mr. herl● now the prolo●utor ; ( which i mention in my apology page . ) which he did with so little evidence for his purpose , as i supposed it had been his own peculiar conceit , not the assemblies argument . and for the rest of the texts , if the assembly can say any more the● mr. marsh●ll and others have said for deducing of paedobaptisme out of them , it were fit it should be known , if not , i for my part count my self as much unsatisfyed by the assemblies alledging impertinent texts , as by a private mars doing the same . this i declare to give the reason of that speech of mine in my apology . as for the assembly though i have expressed my jealousie of some defects in them , and perhaps shall not agree with them in all their determinations , yet i have cast no filth in their faces , as mr. 〈◊〉 injuriously accused me , even for my good will to them ; but have 〈◊〉 and spoken respectively of them , as ex●men page . studying what i could to prevent those blemishes in their proceedings and determinations , which will in time more appear then yet they do , and am induced to believe that there are so many of them therein that know me so well , as that they would be loath to disclaim me , whatever they do of my opinion . and though mr. 〈◊〉 in his suspension suspende page . saith , mr. 〈…〉 is approved by the ass●mbly , and so takes his book to be approved by them ; and you count my words of that book to be an invective against the asse●●ly : yet i do not take it to be approved by the ass●m●ly till they declare it to be so , though i have reason to conceive , that divers of the ablest of the assembly , especially in some part of learning , had their hand in it . sect. viii . of the eighth crimination inveighing against the church of scotland . the church of scotland . for proofe of this you refene the reader to the letters f f page . in which you cite one passage of my apology page . which doth not so much as mention any church , much lesse the church of scotland , but onely the mannagers of the censure of juridical excommunication , whom however the pap●st : & prelates use to speak , i think you use not to call the church of scotland , nor do i . nor is there a word of invectivenesse aginst any in those wordes , but only a declaration , what i question upon my best intelligence which had lesse reference to scotland , then to other parts of the world . sect. ix . of the nineth crimination , inveighing against mr. marshal . master marshal . for proofe hereof you referre your reader to the letters g g page . and there you cite two passages out of my apology : one of which page . is this . i find the words of an intelligent man true concerning mr. marshal , that he was apt to mistake , and in the other page . i say , that i find him still a confused disputer : which indeed containes some complaint of mr. marshal , much lesse then i had cause : but not any invective , which i take to be an oration against a man to make him odious , such as t●llies philippicks against antonius , and demosthenes against philip , and nazia●zen against julian . sect. x. of the tenth crimination , of inveighing against mr. tho. goodwin . master goodwin . for proofe hereof you referre the reader to the letters h h page . and there you cite two shreds of a large passage concerning an accusation of mr. marshal , in which he chargeth me as vilifying mr. thomas goodwin , which charge i there answer , and then use some words which are not invective , but a declaration , what i conceived of his discourse , which if it may not be allowed in dispute the best writers among us will be condemned dr. twisse , mr. gataker , and your brethren mr. rutherfurd , mr. gillespy , your self , and who not ? your own words in the first part of your dissuasive page . do come neerer to an invective against mr. thomas goodwin , then any words in my apology or examen ; the former of which the licenser although mr. goodwins tender friend , yet judged mil● . sect. xi . of the eleventh crimination , of invectives against others . and others . for proof of this you referre the reader to h h . page . where you cite two passages of my apology , the one containing no accusation , no nor so much as a complaint against any one , but onely a mention of my experiment , which i wish the case of doctor twisse ( that i instance in no other ) had not verified ; the other passage is no invective against any but meerly an applying of mr. ley's words to my treatise , which he had avowed of my antagonists writings . sir , i suppose it would better have suited with charity , i living the last summer at the temple not farre from you , if you had in a brotherly way minded me of my flying h●gh , of my in●ivility , or in●is●retion , that i might have seene your love in your reproof , afore i saw your accusation to my disgrace in print . but you add more accusations of me , and say . but in those thing he goes farre beyond all the anabaptists i have met with . sect. xii . of the twelfth crimination , that i esteem baptisme an unnecessary rite . first he esteems baptism so unnecessary a rite that men who are meet to receive it may very well be without it , as constantine , ambrose and others did delay to their old age that sacrament . and in the margine , and table at the end of your book . he makes baptisme a rite needlesse either to young or old , and for proof whereof you referre the reader to the letters ii page . and those letters referre to b b suprà , where two passages are cited , one of mr. marshals , which onely declares his own conceit about another point , that supposing infant-baptisme a nullity he cannot understand how any in the world should this day be lawfully baptized , and another passage out of my apology page . which is cited by you maimedly as psalm . . was cited math. . . leaving out five lines that come between [ perplexities ] and [ for besides ] without any &c. perverting thereby the sense , as if the words [ for besides , &c. ] were a reason of that you cite before , whereas they are a reason of that which i expresse ; but you leave out , that i do not think an unbaptized person receiving the lords supper is either such a new opinion or practise , as mr. marshall made it . and yet in the words as you cite them , there is no proof of that you charge me with . there is no mention at all of ambrose , and that which i mention of constantine is done without any approbation . nor will it follow from my determination , that because i say , if it be stood upon in point of conscience , so as in no case an unbaptized person is to be permitted to partake of the lords supper , it will of necessity make many superstitious perplexities in ministers , and inferre many an unnecessary schisme ; therefore i esteem baptisme a needlesse rite , that men who are meet to receive it may very well be without it . this argument ( and such i take your proof to be ) i would say , if i may use that schoole expression any more , is a baculo ad angulum . and yet a man would think you had need of a strong proof to make men believe that i hold baptisme a needlesse rite , who have suffered and still suffer very much for my opposing infant-baptisme . but my words truly understood do inferre the contrary to that you charge me with , sith they assert baptisme afore the lords supper necessary to be stood upon in point of prudence for right order , and intimate the like in point of conscience except in some cases . when i consider this dealing with me i cannot guesse why you should thus abuse me in this so credible a thing , unlesse you would slily insinuate as if i were of the socainians mind in this , and thereby help to loade me with the most unbrotherly charge of socinianizing begun by mr. marshal in the beginning of his defence , for which the lord forgive him and you . sect. xiii . of the thirteenth crimination , that i am carelesse of my own baptisme . and it seems himself is carelesse to be baptized to this day . for his infant-baptisme according to his arguments must be null , & another baptism as yet it seems he hath not received . here you accuse me of carelesness of my own baptism . but , sir , let me tell you , that unlesse you knew it by my own confession ( which i am sure you did not ) you go beyond your line to judge my secret practises , yea my very thoughts , for carelessenes is a privation of cares which are thoughts . you say , i am a very bold man , but you no where find in me such boldnesse as this to judge a mans thoughts . you might do well to remember what is said mat. . . james . . but for the thing you say , my infant-baptisme according to my arguments must be null , and as yet it seems i have not received another baptisme . let it be granted that my infant-baptisme according to my arguments must be null , that is as i understand insufficient for the doing of the duty of being baptized according to christs appointment ( which yet you have not so much as attempted to prove ) and that i have not yet received another baptism , how doth this prove my carelessenesse of mine own baptisme ? for if it were true indeed that according to my arguments my infant-baptisme were null , yet if it did not so appear to me ( as i confesse i was once doubtful , as my words exercit. pag. . shew , conceiving the maine use of baptisme being a confirming of my profession of christ , by that right an after profession might ratify a former baptisme though not every way right , though i dare not rest upon that conceit ) and therefore i did not receive another baptisme , that would prove i was not altogether carelesse of my own baptisme . but what ? if i did conceive my infant-baptisme a nullity , and yet doubted whether any could now be rightly baptized , because no unbaptized person can give baptism , as mr. marshall professeth in his defence page . or because none can now give the spirit , and therefore received not baptisme yet , this might free me from your charge of carelesnesse of my own baptisme . again if i were resolved that right baptism might be had notwithstanding these doubts , and were resolved to receive it , but either waited to see what the assembly would do about examining the point of paedobaptisme , or the churches of new england , or how i might do my duty to christ with least offence to the state , or to my brethren in the ministery , and with most satisfaction to my own conscience concerning the administrator , administration and other circumstances about it , i might be rather over-careful then carelesse of my own baptism for ought you knew to the contrary , and consequently your accusation of me might be ( as it was ) both rash and false . will you say the ministers about london , that have differred adminstring the lords supper for many years for want of settled discipline are carelesse of the lords supper ? and yet were not you partial i were more excusable in my action about this thing . but i hope your accusation of me shall do me so much good , as to quicken me to a more sp●edy resolution what to do in this great businesse , though i confesse my over-tendernesse to give● offence to my brethren in the ministery who have shewed little or no tender regard of me , but rather have set themselves to make me odious , to keep me under in my credit and estate , and ( which is excessive impiety ) to hinder me in the work of my ministery of the gospel , hath made me somewhat the slacker in resolving and accomplishing what is my duty in this thing . sect. xiv . of the fourteenth crimination , that i am unwilling to join with any of the anabaptists churches , and they unwilling to baptize non-members . for he professeth an unwillingnesse to ●oine himself as a member to any of the anobaptists churches , and i suppose they are unwilling to baptize any , who will not joine in communion with them . and for proof of the former you referre the reader to the letters k k page . at which you cite ( not as they are in my book ) some words of my apology page . which neither as they are in mine , or your book do prove my unwillingnesse to joine my self as a member to any of the anabaptists churches . for a man may be willing to joine himself as a member to any of the anabaptists churches , and yet not dare to ga●her a separated church , not every one who joins as a member with a separated church being guilty of a schisme , which a gatherer of a separated church may be guilty of . besides a man may not know how to justify at one time the practise of gathering a separated church or joining with it , who may know how to justify it at another time , when there is no hope of reformation , and men are judged hereticks , and excommunicated for holding truth and doing their duty . the seven dissenting brethren in the assembly had subscribed with fourteen more of the ablest of the assembly to certain considerations to disswade from further gathering of churches in that present juncture of time , to which my words you cite had reference , who it may be now would not disswade from gathering churches . but the truth is my not daring to gather a separated church then was my willingnesse to join with any churches of christ ( and i think as much ill will as you bear to them , yet you will not dare to say , that none of the anabaptists churches are churches of christ ) though i was not willing to be a separating member in any church but willing to be a conjoined member with all the churches of christ in general , and each in particular : so farre is your allegation from proving what you charge me with that it proves the contrary . and for that you say , that you suppose the anabaptists churches are unwilling to baptize any who will not joine in communion with them , if you meane thus , they will not baptize any who will not joine in communion with them as fixed members entring into the covenant called church-covenant , and professing the way of discipline called the congregational way as the only way , and separaring from any church of christ that is in any other way of discipline ( for not doing which it seems you conceive them unwilling to admit me to baptisme ) i have cause to think you are mistaken . for having upon occasion of these your words written to an elder of one of their churches intreating him to consult with some others , and to give me resolution in these questions . . what joining in communion do you require without which you will not b●ptize any ? . whether on my profession of my repentance and ●aith in the lord jesue , and readinesse to hold communion with all the churches of christ in the things of christ , though i do not promise to be a fixed member in any of their congregations , you would admit me to baptisme ? i received this following answer subscribed by three graduates in schooles , godly and learned men in these words : that which we require and without which we will not baptize any is a persons manifestation of himselfe to be a believer in jesus christ , and to desire baptisme according to the revealed will of christ , and in obedience thereunto , we do not baptize any into this or that particular congregation : but only into that one body in general spoken of cor. . . as touching joining in communion , we in this case require no more , then a manifest readinesse to hold communion with all the churches of christ in the things of christ , and accordingly to shew a real willingnesse to have communion with any particular church of christ according as the hand of god shall give opportunity , and true seasonablenesse of and for the same . thus we judge and practise accordingly . benjamen cox. henry jesse . hanserd knollys . i do testifie the substance hereof to be the professed judgement of that congregation whereto i am joined , and also that congregation , where mr. kiffin , patient , and spilsbery are joined , who did affirm so much to be their own judgement also . the scripture upon which we so practise is that acts . , . hanserd knollys . sect. xv . of the fifteenth crimination , of my allowing frequent rebaptization . secondly when a man is baptized according to his own minde , he allowes him to be oft thereafter rebaptized , even so oft as he repents for sin , which by the godly is done ( as the least ought to be done ) oftener then once . and in the margin and the table at the end of your book , he allowes a frequent rebaptizing : and for proof you referre your reader to the letters l l page . and there you send your reader back to the letter c supr● . now after you had said : but to put the equity of this reproof out of doubt , their great patrons now are come to defend the lawfulnesse of baptisme not onely twice , but if ye will ten times ; yea so oft as you repent for sin , which ought to be oftner , then once a day . so of anabaptists they become hemerobaptists , and more , for proof of this you refer the reader to the letter c , and there you alledge one passage in my examen page . and another passage in my apology page . and a relation of unnamed eminent divines . it is true , that to shew the unreasonable dealing of those that made rebaptization an heresie , i did intreate one good argument to prove it unlawful in se for a man that hath been baptized rightly to be baptized againe , and to shew the weaknesse of the arguments brought to prove it unlawful in se to rebaptize , i breiefly answered the two chief , the latter wherof seems to be that upon which the assembly rested , in that they alledge , to prove this proposition , the sacrament of baptisme is but once to be administred to any person , onely the text tit. . . where god is said to save us by the washing of regeneration . advice for confession of faith , chap. , art . . and then i added , that if there were as good example for paedobaptisme , as that of acts . , . for rebaptizing , the controversie concerning paedobaptisme were at an end with me . in which passage i did not assert the proof to be good for rebaptizing ; but compared with the proof for paedobaptisme to be better , that is more probable then the other , and such as if i had had but the like for paedobaptisme i had not moved any more about it . which i wrote , because i knew that very many writers both antient and latter do very probably from expresse words in that place conceive , that paul did rebaptize , whereas there is not any probability , that any infa●t was baptized by the apostles ; nor have the antients ( that i know ) ever gone about to prove it from any example in the acts of the apostles but by tradition . but in all this i did not at all set down my judgement of the thing , whether rebaptizing were lawful or not , but onely questioned the proofes alledged to make it unlawful , whether they yielded good arguments . i know there was another argument from circumcision but once : but i did not think that argument worth answering , nor do i yet , notwithstanding mr. mar●hals esteem of it , nor it may seeme would the assembly build on it by their omitting it in the place before quoted . i still professe , that i reject all arguments drawn since the apostles from analogy of rites or customes of the jewes in meer positive things so as to conclude thence any thing to bind us as uredivino by gods appoinntment . and i conceive they serve for no better purpose , then to cause much wrangling , to fill people with superstitions , and to weary schollers , and that they better fit papists and prelates turns , then independents or presbyterians . and i was sorry to reade in your brother gillespy his aarons rod blossoming book cha. . page . that from chr. . , , . the reverend and learned assembly of divines have drawn an argument for ruling elders , hoping they would have discarded all such arguments . but i said also examen page . i conceive it true , that there is no necessity of administring either circumcision or baptism above once : but a demonstrative argument to prove it an heresie or unlawfull in it self to rebaptize i yet expect . these passages mr. marshall page . of his defence sayes , do clearly discover my itch after new opinions . but this was inconsiderately & uncharitably said , sith my words lead him 〈◊〉 another reason of those passages , though it were but intimated , which is the misery and mischief which comes by mens magisterial determinations of heresies and errors , and binding mens consciences with a pretended jure divino upon topical reasons , it being the cause of many schismes , and much hatred between christians , and is the true cause of 〈◊〉 confusions and warres betweene christians , that arise upon difference of opinion in matters of religion . i said indeed , that mr. marshals reasons were not convincing to me , nor is the holding of rebaptization such a new opinion as he would make it . but how do any passages of my examen page . or my apology page . prove that which you charge me with , that when a man is baptized according to my own mind i allow him to be oft thereafter rebaptized , even so oft as he repents for sin , which by the odly is done , at least ought to be done every day oftner then once , that i allow of a frequent rebap●ization , that to put the equity of the reproach of rebaptizing out of doubt , i ( whom you dubbe the anabaptists great patron , though indeed a patron of nothing , but truth , and right ) am now come to defend the lawfulnesse of baptisme not onely twice , but if ye will ten times , yea so oft as you repent for sin , which ought to be oftner then once a day , so of anabaptists they become hem●robaptists and more . but you have a tale of some eminent divines to help you out , that in my sermon before the house of commons ( for to whom else [ his ] can refene i see not , there being no other but mr. marshal and my selfe mentioned in that paragraph ) i did avow in terminis , that it is no fault to baptize ten times . now sure those eminent divines , and your self by hearkening to them , and reporting this in print without ever speaking or writing to me about it , though i lived not farre from you or them , do shew that to be true , which is every where complained of , that rigid presbyterians are very apt to receive false reports , and to publish them of any that dissent from them , that they rake into every dunghil to find some filth to throw into the faces of their brethren , and therefore godly persons are very unwilling to come under their yoke . but that you may know the plain truth , i never yet preached a sermon before the house of commons , nor in such sermon did avow in terminis , that it is no fault to baptize ten times . i have enquired about this tale , and it is conjectured by some , that this tale was hatched out of a passage of a sermon of mr. wal●er cradock before the house of commons july . . on john . , . page . which was this , when i have communion with a saint i must not looke whether he be of such an opinior , or whether he have taken the covenant , or have been baptized ●nce or twice or ten times , but see if he have fellowship with the father , and with jesus christ , which it 's likely was misreported ; and made him in the margine put these words : i speak not this as if my opinion were for rebaptization , &c. this forwardnesse to misreport things done now , as it discovers much ill affection in mens spirits , and that the presbyterian spirit , when persons grow factious , will run into undue courses as well as the anabaptistick spirit ; so it gives much cause to considerate men to doubt whether many things reported of the anabaptists heretofore , and all taken up in your dragge-net whether true or false ( which are the best pillar you have to uphold the great corruption of paedobaptism or paedorantism as now it deserves to be stiled ) were true as they were reported . sect. xvi . of the sixteenth crimination , that i make it lawful for persons unbaptized to partake of the lords supper . as for that you charge me with when you say , thirdly he makes it lawfull for persons before they be baptized to partake of the lords supper , and referre your reader to mm and thence to bb and chapter . pag. . when you say , and some of their greatest doctors hold it in no wise incongruous to admit persons to the lords table before they be baptized , and for this you cite my words page . of my apology , had you dealt candidly with me , you should have set down my opinion as i propound it , which was that in some case it might be permitted . but neither you nor mr. marshall have dealt fairely with me in this matter . you set not down my opinion rightly , but leave out the limitation which did rightly state my opinion , and mr. marshall pag. . of his defence misreports me , that i confesse i find no example of an unbaptized person receiving the lords supper , and neither youn or mr. marshall do take upon you to answer my reasons , which are either in my examen pag. . or in my apology pag. , . but onely censure me for freaks and outleaps , and a spice of itch after new opinions for propounding my opinion with reasons about a case of conscience , which troubles many , and is of very frequent occurrence , in a place that lead me to speak of it . but it seems neither mr. marshall nor your self are willing to let any thing passe , that may make me odious , or ridiculous , though you do but shew your own inconsideratenesse , and uncharitablenesse , the like dealing you use towards me in the following charges . sect. xvii . of the seventeenth crimination , that i am a compleate erastian , wherein reason is given of my doubt , that in scripture no such juridicall excommunication is appointed as is now contended for . you say , fourthly , to shew how little inclineable he is to joine with the anabaptists , he declares himself a compleat erastian . sir , what i said , and to what end , i expressed plainly enough in my apology page . the occasion of printing what i conceived , was a passage in mr. marshalls defence , which he stuffed with all the exceptions he could thrust in against my person , but answered little or nothing punctually in the maine points of the dispute , ( which praevarication , i may perhaps in time discover also , in your dispute ( chap. . ) of your anabaptisme ) the occasion of speaking in private conference , was , to shew my sensiblenesse of the misery of the land , by reason of the present differences , upon some speech that was moved by some friend of mine , ( as i remember , ) when the assembly brought into the house of commons , their petitior , desiring power to suspend persons from the lords supper for all scandals , without restriction ; and asserted the presbyterian government , ( unto which they advised the parliament , ) to be jure divino , by the will and appointment of jesus christ . what i spake then , and since printed ; was to shew my compassion of my native countrey like to be ruined , by the violent asserting things disputable , to be ure divino ; and thereby necessitating men to oppose , lest conscience be brought in bondage , according to the apostles warning col. . . it was not ( as you say ) to shew how little inclineable i am to ●oine with the anabaptists . nor did i declare my selfe a compleat erastian in the words you alleadge at the letters nn out of my apology , as you charge me ; but only expresse my doubts ; much lesse did i declare my self a compleate erastian , that is in your sense one that holds with erastus in all things , wherein he differs from beza in the disputes between them . for whereas there are two main points in difference between them , excommunication , and the mixt presbytery ; concerning this latter , my words in my apology speak nothing against it , but rather for it , when i say , and if any assembly of ministers and rulers be set up , for the better discovery of such as live viciously , or do contrary to the christian faith , or worship , that a person be not charged with those evils upon uncertain reports , i think it agreeable to gods will tim. . . and whereas mr gillespy in his aarons rod blossoming , page . hath these words , eras●us pag. . hath not spared to say , that the magistrate may in the new testament ( though he might not in the old , ) exercise the ministeriall functior , of he can have so much leasure from his other imployments , and pag. . in very truth the erastians ▪ do oppose not only the institution , but the lawfulnesse and agreeablenesse to the word of god of a church-government distinct from the civill ; yet you cannot shew that i hold either of these positions . i confesse i have read erastus his theses & confirmatio thesium ; but i could not do it so exactly , as i would have done it , if i had had beza's book to compare with it . i have read that which mr. rutherford disputes against erastus but it doth not satisfy me , in that he dictates many things without proof , which are most necessary to be proved ; and proves something by the sayings of authors , that deserve to be examined ; and many times omits in reciting his antagonists words , that which is either most or very material ; and makes not his own answers punctual ; which things mr. mather also chargeth him with , about another point ; besides many incoherent , and imperfect speeches , and inserting things impertinent . besides in this dispute ▪ i conceive , mr. rutherford doth yield that , which overthroweth that which he concludeth for . as when in his divine right of church-government chap. . q. . page . he hath these words , it is evident from the text mat. . . that christ speaks of such sins in a speciall manner committed against me or a particular brother , which are within the verge of my power or his to pardon , as not being yet publickly scandalous . which if true , then it can be meant onely of personal injuries , which alone a private person hath power to pardon , and so is not an institution how to correct scandals under that notion , which mr. gillespy contends so much for , in his aarons rod blossoming , book . chap. . page . and book . chap. . as for his a●gument from proportior , christ did appoint this to be done in case of civill in●uries , much more in scandals : it hath no strength to impose a thing as by divine institution upon mens consciences ; yea it is no better then a humane invention when only gathered by such reasoning ; such arguments from proportions being weak probations , as rightly mr. rutherford due right of presbyteries chap. . sect. . page . and all logicians acknowledge that an argument à comparatis is but topical , yea easily overthrown if any disparity be assigned . and this is enough ( though much more may be said ) to shew that mat. . , , . is impertinently alleadged , though it be one of the chief tex●s urged importunately for church-government by prelates , independents , presbyterians , even the assembly it self advice concerning a confession of faith chap. . art . , . to prove a power of excommunicating for sins as scandalous , and so all scandals . and for the power of the keyes mat. . . mr. rutherford chap. . q. . pag. . makes the power of the keyes to belong to church-rulers , that are the stewards of the house , and the d●spensers of the heavenly mysteries , but this may be only preaching the gospel , of which the apostle speaks cor. . . which place is impertinently alleadged in the assemblies confession of faith chap. . art . . to prove , neither sacrament may be dispensed by any , but a minister of the word lawfull ordained , the scripture no where calling the sacraments mysteries , but the doctrine of the gospel ; however the greek fathers oft call them so . as for binding , and loosing though i conceive dr. hammond hath more exactly disputed this matter in his book of the power of keyes , chap. . then others , yet i conceive it more agreeable to other places in matthew ( leaving mr. selden to justify his explication in his preface to his book of the calender of the jewes out of the talmudists as he conceives fit ) as mat. . . & . . besides acts . . revel. . . luke . . to draw the metaphor from binding and loosing burdens , rather then prisoners ; which is confirmed in that the phrase is not [ whomsoever ] but [ what things soever ye shall bind on earth ] mat. . . and this may very well stand with the coherence , signifying gods ratifying in heaven the commands of the apostles , and the church on earth in the matters wherein they are to be obeyed v. . and so the binding and loosing belongs not to vindicative judicature as by excommunication , but to stewardly declarative authority what is to be done or not to be done ; and consequently proves not juridical excommunication . i add that mr. gillespy in his aarons rod blossoming book . c. p. , . will not have binding and loosing by a dogmatical authoritative declaration of the will of christ here excluded , but proves this sense from mat. . . acts . . and from the coherence with the . v. as for cor. . . mr. rutherfurd cha. . , . page . denieth not many learned protestants to conceive , that delivering to satan might be a bodily punishment or conjoined therewith , &c. yea he addeth , and the learned molineus denyeth delivering to satan to be expounded of excommunication , and will have the destruction of the flesh to be some bodily tormenting of his body by satar , and so do sundry of the fathers , especially ambrose , hieronymus , augustinus , and chrysostome , though augustin be doubtful ; which if true it will be hard to prove juridical excommunication now contended for from thence . and for the . v. if it be read as it may , and ye shall put away , not , therefore put away & {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , not {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the evil thing , not the evill person , as it 's said to be in a manuscript copy at saint james , and is the more likely , because it seemes to many learned men , that the apostle tooke these phrases {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , v. . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , v. . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , from the greek version , deut. . , . and . , ; . it will note , not a command , but an event ; and so it may be either expounded impersonally , as deut. . . ye shall put away the evil , that is , the evil shall be put away from you , or if it be referred to their action , they may be said to do it , because they mourned that he might be taken away , ver. . and it was to be done when they were gathered together , ver. . now the phrase of taking away from them , compared with those places in deuteronomy , with the apostles speech ver. . is more likely to be meant of killing then excommunicating . and the putting it , ver. . in such an abrupt manner like to that , deut. . . doth give great cause to imagine it hath the same sense . but if it be a command , and be referred to excommunication with the judging them that are withir , ver. . yet it cannot be gathered from the text that this was the juridical excommunication contended for , invested in some officers , or the people with the officers as superiour judges : but rather by verses , , , . precedent , this judging and putting away belongs to every private christian jointly in a constituted church , or severally by themselves . i have read mr. gillespies aarons rod blossoming , and i think the strength of all is in the . chapter of his . book : in which i doubt whether any of his . arguments will prove such a forensical ecclesiastick government , as he contends for . the argument from two distinct governments , and judicatories to censure vicious manners ( in which mr. gillespy in his first book seemes to be most elaberate ) in the jewish policy to prove the like to be among christians is many wayes faulty . it will hardly be proved the priests had peculiar cognizance of scandalous manners , or that any was kept from the sacrifices for moral uncleannesse , much lesse that the reason is good , men were kept away for legal uncleannesse from the sacrifices , ergo much more for moral , or exclusion for legal pollution typifies exclusion for moral in the christian church . you say truly in answer to mr. cotton first part of your dissuasive chap. . pag , . there is no argumenting from symbolick types except where the spirit of god in scripture appl●es a type to such a signification and use . nor is the jewish policy a patterne for us . if it were we must have a bishop answering to an high priest , a parliament consisting of bishops and nobles , as they had their synedrium at jerusalem of priests and elders of the people . these arguments cannot stand without asserting that the jewish judicial lawes binde still . i have bin the larger in this , because in some writings especially of your nation , to be an erastian is now counted an high crime , and if the advice of the assembly concerning a confession of faith chap. . should be established as a law , assertion of a church-government corrective of manners by censures in a juridical way would be pressed on us as of divine institution distinct from the civil magistrate , which i conceive it concerns the assertors better to prove , then yet appears they have done , or else they will in pressing it on others usurpe dominion over other mens fiath . but sure in many particulars i am not of erastus his minde , and therefore you do ill to terme me a compleate erastian . and though i find not by bullingers and gualther's letters to him , beza's preface to his answer to his theses , philip pareus his relation of his fathers life , and other wayes , but that erastus had the repute of a werthy man , yet i take it all at your hands to be named by any name , but christs , as you , and your fellow-commissioners did take exception at the apologetical narration of the five brethren for calling some churches calvinian . but how do you prove me to be a compleat erastian ? sect. xviii . of the eighteenth crimination , that i avow no scandalous professor ought to be kept from the lords table . you say , that i avow that no scandalous professor ought to be kept from the lords table , and for proof , you referre your reader to the letters n n , where some words of mine are recited out of my apology page . which avow not any thing but my doubt , nor that of the thing it self , but of the proofe , and that not out of any scripture whatsoever , but onely the fact of delivering to satan the incestuous corinthian , cor. . . nor do i expresse my doubt to be how from that it may be concluded , that any scandalous professor ought to be kept from the lords table : but how hence may be concluded any power of suspension from the lords su●per for every emergent scandal so judged by a congregation or congregational presbytery . yea to shew how ready you are to mis-report me , in the very next page of my apology i have these words , and if it happen that any such facts be perpe●rated as are like to that of the incestuous person , i doubt not but the whole church may and ought to disclaime the person so offending , and to exclude him from all brotherly communion , because i conceive so much was done to the incestuous person ; as i gather from cor. . , . so that my doubt was not of suspension for any , but for every emergent scandal , for which the assembly were so earnest with the parliament . many scandals there are in abuse of liberty in things indifferent , in sins of evil councel , and example which may happen through strength of temptation by infirmity in men not habitually vicio●s , which are not of that hainous nature , as to deserve keeping from the lords table ; nor doth the scripture either prescribe such a thing to be done , or give power to do it . i like not doctor ames his determination lib. . de conscientiac . . num . . proprium & adaequatum ob●e●●um hu●●s censurae est scandalum datum ●fratre , which i imagine was the cause of the assembly's mistake upon which they petitioned . sect. xix . of the nineteenth crimination of me , that i hold no censure of fexcommunication . you further charge me , as avowing also that there is no such thing as any censure of excommunicatior , and for proof you referre your reader to the letters o o , where is cited one or two passages of my apology , page . in neither of which do i avow any thing but my doubt , which is of . things , whereof one is , whether ever excommunication a sacris , that is ( as i after expresse my self ) ●uridical , forensica , ●●horitative , excommunication by some officers , or the whole congregation as superiou●s that have jurisdiction without special gift as the apostles had , would be proved to be ●ure divino by christs appointment . and i confesse i have still the same doubt , notwithstanding what i have read in mr. rutherford , mr. gillespy or any other . and i should be willing to be resolved , how citing to appear by power of office , keeping courts or assemblies , requiring persons , yea of all sorts and qualities to answer as before judges , examining witnesses , hearing causes , passing sentence , inflicting so great a punishment as excommunication without liberty of appeale ( if by a national assembly of elders ) on ministers and people , even the chiefest , not as arbitrators to whom the parties referre the matter , but as ecclesiastical officers to whose judgement they must stand whether they will or no , will be acquitted from that dominion condemned lu. . , . mat. . . mar. . , , pet. . , . as the assertors of the presbyterian discipline expound the texts against the prelates ; & what dominion more like the heathen the prelates take upon them , then such an assembly , and whether the prelates against whom you pleade may not acquit their prelacy which they claime from the dominion you charge them with , out of these texts of scripture as well as you . but in this i do not avow , there is no such thing as any censure of excommunitation , as you accuse me : yea i do expressely grant a social medicinal excommunication by the whole church from all brotherly communion with the whole , and by each member from arbitrary communion with himself , provided they do not rashly or unjustly exclude . and this i gather from cor. . , , . thess. . , , . and other places , as in my apology page . may be seen . and i think the congregational way in this nearer to the use of excommunication in scripture then the presbyterian , though i think they misse in two things . . that they make it an act of superiority and jurisdiction , or , as they speak , of the power of the keyes in the whole church over the person censured . . they ascribe this power only to that particular congregation of which the offender is a fixed member , which i conceive common to any other church or brother in another congregation , and is in effect nothing else but the non-communion , which they ascribe to one church towards another . nor do i conceive what other excommunication christians could in the primitive times exercise or did exercise one towards another , when victor bishop of rome would have excommunicated polycrates bishop of ephesus , or the western the eastern church about easter , or stephanus of rome firmilianus bishop of caesarca in cappadocia holding with cyprian about rebaptization of persons baptized by heretiques , then this non-communion . and for the texts mat. . . mat. . , , . i am not yet moved from the interpretation i gave in my apology page . but rather conceive that i can prove it true , notwithstanding what i have read hitherto to the contrary . sect. xx . of the twentieth crimination , that i hold christ hath not appointed any particular government for his church . you say further , that christ hath not appointed any particular government for his church , and for proof hereof you referre the reader to the letters p p , at which you cite two passages of my apology page . . of which neither sayes the thing you charge me with , the former onely making two things , according to my conceit , prudencial , to wit , the independency or dependency , and the fixednesse or moveablenesse of pastors , and congregations . in the other i acknowledged a discipline proper to the church , and shewed what it was . and therefore you do manifestly wrong me in saying i avow a particular governmen● , when my words expressely yield the contrary , onely i said , i suppose the manner of doing the thing is left to prudence , that is by whom , when , in what order evils committed should be examined , the persons charged , admonished , avoided , which i think you will not deny . surely you will be hard put to it , to prove out of scripture , the particularities of your , or any other discipline . to tell you my minde yet more plainly , the word government comes from the greeke {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , now {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , saith suidas , he that guides ●●ship by steering it . being applied to men i conceive government is either by counsel , directing , admonishing , reproving in words or actions ( as by shewing favour or dislike , in lookes , embracing or shunning company , &c. giving example , &c. or by giving lawes , and inflicting punishments or giving rewards . i conceive christ hath not left a particular government for his church the latter way , but referres that unto himself , but in the former way he hath in the hands of some officers , whom he hath made as stewards in his house , whose government consists chiefely in declaring the will of christ , convincing gain-sayers , ordaining pastors to teach , and declaring ●alse teachers to be shunned , and such like offices : but for the juridical government mentioned before i find it not appointed them by christ . i like h●●romes expression on tit. . that the churches co●muni presbyt●r●●●● consilie , cura , solicitudine ( not imperio ) guvernabantur , and i like salmasi●● his observation in his apparatus de primatu papae pag. . 〈◊〉 primatu papae part . . cap. . that the government of the church is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ●urati● , over-sight , not potestas , magistracy , empire . and this me thinks best suites with the scriptures , thess. . . tim. . . heb. . , . peter . , . sect. xxi . of the one & twentieth crimination , that i hold that the government of the church belongs to the magistrate onely . you add further , that i say , that the governing of the church belongs to the magistrate onely , and to such whom he appoints to that service by vertue of a commission flowing from himself . and for proofe hereof you referre the reader to the letters q q page . where you cite a passage out of my apology page , which hath not a word of that you charge me with , but onely a declaration of my opinion in point of prudence , that the not devolving so much jurisdiction ( as some desire ) on a presbytery doth not so much disadvantage the church , as some conceive , for reformation of manners , but onely for suppressing the dissenters in opinion , who are for the most part the most consciencious , and right-hearted ; for usually the ruling elders are magistrates , or both teaching and ruling elders are chosen and act according to their minde , and serve their ends . and therefore if the christian magistrate be good , there 's no great losse to the church concerning the reforming of vicious manners , though he presbytery have not such power as some desire : if bad , little is done by the presbytery . and for errors in opinion they are scarce ever amended by bare excommunication , for that ( if there be any number of dissenters ) doth but usually produce a schisme , but by teaching and cleering truth with meeknesse and forbearance one towards another , and a freedome to debate things in synods , which is , i suppose , the proper use of them , and not to determine things and impose lawes the persons censured being never heard . this i said to allay the heate of men in engaging a kingdome to warre upon such a cause . but because this is onely a point of prudence from experience i leave this to be considered by those that are better acquainted with humane affaires then i am . the thing you charge me with is no where asserted by me and therefore in this you also charge me falsely . sect. xxii . of my new way and boldnesse . there are some other things in your book wherein you abuse me , as pag. . in your margine and table when you put mr. ●ombes new way , and when you say , that at this time when so many new waies are in hand , i have thought meet to make a hotch-potch of many of them together ; which is a meer reproachful or scoffical calumny , as if what i wrote , i did it out of a designe to make a new way of mine own . whereas what i have said , i was necessitated to it , as i shew in my apology , and was done in pursuance of the covenant , and should have been taken with the right hand by men that are desirous to find out truth especially from one that you term learned , and with all his strength and greater diligence then any before him hath sifted a point . as for my boldnesse , i confesse god hath in mercy to me put more boldnesse and courage into me in this matter , then either agrees with my natural complexion , or the state of my affaires . but if you mean by saying that i am a very bold man , that i am one that is of an audacious disposition to be a ringleader in a faction or an attempter of a desperate designe , or in any other bad sense ( which it 's likely you mean ) you are deceived , it being trueth which makes me bold , which i am the more bold to avouch to be so , because having tryed your strength with my other antagonists , i find , that you defend that which i impugne by meer sleights . sect. xxiii . of my silence concerning dipping , and of the novelty and insufficiency of sprinkling instead of baptizing . you say , that you have marked nothing to fall from my pen for the rite of dipping , or against the custome of sprinkling . and in the margine and the able at the end of your book you say , he is a rigid antipaed●baptist , but not against sprinkling . but this is more then you could infer from this , that i meddle not with this controversy in my writings . but though i say nothing , there 's enough to be found of that innovation of sprinkling , in all sorts of authors . mede in his diatribe , or discourse on tit. . . i ●dd● , because perhaps some mens fancies are corrupted therewith , that there was no such thing as sprinkling or {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} used in baptism in the apostles times , nor many ages after them ; and therefore it is no way probable that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in st. peter should have any reference to the laver of bapt●sm . salmasius appar. ad librum de primatu papae pag. . non enim id {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} est quo hodie infantes initiant , non mersio , non t●●ctio , non lot● , non lava●rum , nec {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ut etiam graeci vocant , & vox baptismi graece significat , sed {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} aspersio vel infu●●o aquae . the like is in his epistle ad colvium pag. . ancient and later writers do generally avouch john baptists and the apostles and ancients use for many hundreds of yeares to have been by dipping or 〈◊〉 under water : salmasius apparat. ad librum de primatu papae pag. . tempore hieronymi omnes ecclesiae hunc morem observ●bant in baptismo ut ter caput sub aqua mergerent quibus id sacramentum dabatur ▪ aquinas . part . 〈◊〉 . . art . . tutius est baptizare per modom immer●●onis , quia hoc habet communior usus . chanier , panstrat . cathol. tom. lib. . c. . sect. . caeterùm in usu●lementi abinitio immersionem fuisse totius corporis : quae vis est {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} : unde joannes baptizabat in flumine : deinde tamen mutatam in asse● sionem : incertum quando ; aut unde●f●cto init●o , &c. the manner of dipping , plunging , or immersion under water is agreeable to the relations , m●● . . . john . . acts . , . it is acknowledged to be alluded to by paul , rom. . , . by the new annot. there ; by calvin in john . , . a joanne et christo celebratum baptismum fuisse totius corporis submersione . calv. in act. . . to tum corpus in aquam mergebart . mr. daniel rog●r●in treatise of two sacraments part . . chap. . . edit. page . saith , the greek tongue wants not words to expresse any o●●er act , as well as dipping , if the i●stitution could beare it . and sur . — the lord meant not that the infant should be sprinckled onely ; — but baptizea : which word signifieth the true act of the ministery , to di● , or do●the body , or some part of it into the water . and the 〈◊〉 of baptisme in t●e symbolicalnes of it , urgeth no . — what resemblance of our burial or resurrection with christ is there in sprinkling ? — so that — they loo● more at themselves , then at god therein . and a little before he saith , to dip the infant — i so ave● , as thinking it exceeding material to the ordinance , and no sleigh : thing : yea , which both antiquity ( — ) constantly , and without exception of countreys , hot or cold , witnesseth unto , and especially the constant word of the holy ghost , first and last approveth , as a learned critick ( causanbon ) in mat. . hath noted . p●s●at . schol. on rom ▪ . . diodati anno● . in rom. . . grot. annot. in rom. . . &c. and coloss. . , . acknowledged by beza annot. in col. . . and gal. . . davenan . in c●l . . . &c. by the new annot. on mat. . . to have been the manner in christs time ; so that keckerman . syst . theolog. lib. . c. . saies , non possumus diffiteri primam institutionem baptismi immersion , non ver● adspersione constitisse , quod disertè patet ex cap . roman . ver. . and . casaubon . ●nnot . ad mat. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; hic enim fuit baptizandi ritu● , ut in aquas immergerentur : quod vel ipsa vox {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} dclarat satis : quae ut non significat {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} quod est sundum petere cum sua pernicie : it à profecto non est {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . differunt enim haec tri ; {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . unde intelligimus , non esse abs re quod ●ampridem nonnulli disputacunt de toto corpore immerg●ndo in ceremonia baptismi ; vocem enim {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} urgebant . sed horum sententia merito est jampr●dem explosa : quum non in eo posita est mysterii hujus vis et {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . tertullian , who lived within lesse then a hundred years of some of the apostles , frequently calls baptisme , dipping ; and saith the parties were dip● , tincti : ( never sprickled , a●●ers , &c. ) the like phrase hath musculus on mat. . &c. the dut●l bibles have it thus mat. . . johannes de dooper . john the dip●er , ghedoopt inden jordaen ver. . he dipt them in jordan . mat. . . doopende ●nden nam●-dipping them in the name . so in mar. . , . act. . , &c. so mr. thomas goodwin holds out this manner of baptizing fully , in his treatise of christ se●forth in his death , burial — section . chap. . it was questioned in the third century whether the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or sprinkling or powring about of the element , that is , those who when they were sick on their beds and ready to dy , were baptized , were true baptism ? cyprian lib. . epis. ad ma●num . after it was questioned , whether a threefold immersion were necessary , or one would suffice ? 〈◊〉 s●ntent . lib. . distinct . . sect. . aqu●n . . part . q. . art . . the jewes , ( from whom this rite is conceived to come , ) took the baptisme wherein the whole body was not baptized , to be void , selden de jure natur . & gent. ●uxta dis●i● . hebr. l. . c. . the force of the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is so manifest to signifie dipping , plunging , drowning , that pi●●rus in his pythia ode . . calls corke swimming {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , upon the face of the waters unbaptized , and plucerch a ship floting on the waters {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , unbaptized . insomuch that i marvel greatly , that those who hold breaking of bread necessary , if not essential to the lords supper , having but example , use of the word , and allusion for it in scripture ; yea that are so stiffe for a table gesture ; should upon such pretences as these [ that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} sometimes signifies washing , that our countreys are in a cold climate , or the like , alter so confirmed a 〈◊〉 , and determine that baptizing for the manner of doing 〈◊〉 , is not only 〈◊〉 , but sufficient , and most expedient to be by pouring or spri●klin● on the face of the child , in the directory ; and that dipping of the person into the water is not necessary : but baptisme is rightly administred by pouring or sprinkling water upon the person . advice 〈◊〉 confession of faith chap. . 〈◊〉 . and that so small a vessel should , according to their minds be set up , as that the primitiv● 〈◊〉 cannot be continued by those that would , and perhaps do make conscience of it . sect. xxiii . the conclusion requiring reparation of the wrong done to me by mr. baillee . now sir , i referre it to your self to judge whether any author , papist or protestant , have in so small a compasse as one page of a leafe in . and some few lines in another so wronged his adversary , as you have done me in so many false accusations tending to beget prejudice against my writing , and hatred against my person . which i take the worse from you as being done not onely to a fellow-christian , and a fellow-protestant , but also to a fellow-minister of the gospel , whose life and labours are not very obscure ; yea to a fellow-covenanter , and one with whom you ate bread at his and others invitation , out of the desire i had to hold amity with you , and the churches from whence you came : nor do i know that i have done or spoken any thing that might tend to the contrary since : and this have you done in print , whereby it 's likely to spread to many , and to remaine upon record to posterity , without any provocation by me , and without any conference with me by word or writing , which might have satisfied you ; though living not farre from you while you were framing your book ; as i conceive you could not be ignorant from sundry passages in my apolegy . the sin of false accusing is one of the sins , that makes times perilous , tim. . . from whence the enemy of mankind hath his name , and from whence much of our disunion , and misery comes . i do now write this letter to you being remote from you , as i did write to a neere friend before , to acquaint you with these exceptions against you ; having an eye on the rule of christ , mat. . . that i may shew my desires of peace , and you may see trueth , and confesse your wronging of me , and may fully right me . if this do not take , i shall some other way endeavour to wash away the dirt cast in my face by you , and remaine your brother and fellow-servant in christ jesus john tombes bewdley in worcestershire . july . . june . . imprimatur john bachiler . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- vide ans. of the elders of new ergl ro que . q . p , , . all in defe of answ. 〈◊〉 sit . page . selden . l. . design . c . p . codices prisci , optim●que habent {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . allin defence of ans. to posit. p. . in case the fraternity without officers should cast out any , yet it is not altogether the same with that which may be dispensed by the officers thereof it being no officiall act . mr. henry scudder . fermentvm pharisæorvm, or, the leaven of pharisaicall wil-worship: declared in a sermon on matth. . novemb. . . at lemster in herefordshire. / by iohn tombes, b.d. tombes, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) fermentvm pharisæorvm, or, the leaven of pharisaicall wil-worship: declared in a sermon on matth. . novemb. . . at lemster in herefordshire. / by iohn tombes, b.d. tombes, john, ?- . england and wales. parliament. house of commons. [ ], p. printed by richard cotes for andrew crooke, and are to be sold at his shop at the signe of the greene dragon in pauls church-yard, london : . annotation on thomason copy: "july ist". "it is this nineteenth day of aprill anno dom. . ordered by the committee of the house of commons in parliament, concerning printing, that this book intituled (the leaven of pharisaicall wil-worship) be printed. john white." reproduction of the original in the british library. eng bible. -- n.t. -- matthew xv, -- sermons -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no fermentvm pharisæorvm, or, the leaven of pharisaicall wil-worship:: declared in a sermon on matth. . novemb. . . at lemster in her tombes, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion fermentvm pharisaeorvm , or , the leaven of pharisaicall wil-worship : declared in a sermon on matth. . . novemb. . . at lemster in herefordshire . by iohn tombes , b. d. it is this nineteenth day of aprill anno dom. . ordered by the committee of the house of commons in parliament , concerning printing , that this book intituled ( the leaven of pharisaicall wil-worship ) be printed . john white . london , printed by richard cotes , for andrew crooke , and are to be sold at his shop at the signe of the greene dragon in pauls church-yard . . to the right worshipfvll richard aldworth esquire , mayor , the aldermen , sheriffes , and the rest of the inhabitants of the city of bristoll . how tenacious the heart of man is of superstition , as former ages , so the present generation doe abundantly declare . no age can yeeld a more horrid instance of a people taught so much as this nation hath beene concerning the true worship of god , admonished so often ▪ that god is not pleased by humane rites , and yet still place their religion in them , oppugne the representative body of the commonwealth , for seeking to remove them , fight for them tanquam pro aris & focis , spoyle their owne countrey , with such cruell despight drive away their faithfull teachers , and unspotted neighbours from their dwellings , wives and children , and thinke it a good worke to destroy them for not yeelding to practise things never appointed by god and notoriously tending to superstition , and for their faithfull dealing with their soules in labouring to draw them from their vaine confidence in the flesh to worship god in the spirit , and to rejoyce in christ jesus . hope somewhat to abate this fire of rage , moved me at first to cast this bucket of water to quench it . but as it happens often , that when water quencheth not a fire , it flames out the more by casting water on it : so it be fell me : the barbarous rage and impetuous violence of people so increased , that i could have no safety in my proper station , but was enforced to remove my selfe , wife and children , and since have suffered the spoyling of my goods , of my dwelling house , with many other injuries . after much tossing up and downe , j have in your city cast anchor , till either a greater storme enforce me to commit my selfe to the maine againe , or a favourable gale bring me into a harbour . and that j may testifie my love to this city , and gratitude for my present entertainment , and withall aiming at your edification , j have presumed in publishing this sermon , to prefixe your names , to whom j humbly present it for your use and acceptance , and doe professe my selfe yours , in the service of christ iesus , john tombes . the leaven of pharisaicall wil-worship . matthew . . but in vaine they doe worship me , teaching for doctrines the commandements of men . of all the opposers of christ none were more malicious , nor more dangerous then the scribes & pharisees : none more malicious , because none did so clearely apprehend the glory of christ , as they that saw the rayes of his divinity shining in his miracles , the evidence of his acquaintance with god in his divine doctrine ; yet they hated him extreamely as shadowing and eclipsing their repute , and power with the people , whose praise they sought more then the praise of god : now as no poyson is stronger then that of the hottest countries , so no malice greater then that of the most enlightned breasts ; nor any more dangerous , because none covered their enmity with such shewes of gravity and devotion as they did , whereby their example and perswasions tooke with many to the great hinderance of the efficacy of christs preaching : for formall hypocrisie is more mischievous to mens soules , then open ungodlinesse , in as much as it is lesse discernible , even as a viper lurking under greene leaves is more dangerous , then a dogge that runnes on a man with open mouth . fallit vitium specie virtutis et umbra : which thing caused our lord christ to have more encounters with this generation of vipers , then with all other adversaries . among which , that which is related in this chapter is remarkeable : for it may seeme that they came downe from jerusalem of purpose to quarrell with christ , and therefore our saviour deales with them most plainely and sharpely in his reply . the occasion they take was his disciples omission of their antient custome of washing afore meales , the neglect of which they conceived a great crime , as violating the tradition of the elders : concerning which they expostulate with christ for his disciples supposed fault : v. . why doe thy disciples transgresse the tradition of the elders ? had the people of this generation beene to make answer to this question , they would have fallen on christs disciples , and checked them for their indiscretion at least in giving offence in a matter indifferent , of novelty in not observing old customes . they should have heard , what harme is it to wash ones hands before meales ? why should not men for peace sake doe as others doe ? are you wiser then the rabbines ? then your elders ? will you be singular and different from all others ? smooth words should have beene given to the pharisees , to entreat them to be contented , order should be taken to teach the disciples better manners ; but our saviour carries the businesse in another way , what his disciples neglected to doe , he himselfe gave them example to neglect , luk. . . and when the pharisees excepted against them , he doth in plaine words endite them of hypocrisie , and chargeth them home by a proofe from the prophet esaias , which he applies to them as forespoken of them . vers. , ▪ . so that the words of my text are a passage cited out of the prophesie of isaiah . . wherein our saviour makes use of the septuagints translation , which is somewhat different in words , though not in sense , from the hebrew , for whereas in the hebrew the words are , and their feare towards me is taught from , or by the precepts of men , the septuagint reade , but in vaine doe they worship me , teaching for doctrines the commandements of men . in which there is a sinne charged upon these pharises , to wit , the teaching doctrines the commandements of men , that is , as piscator in his scholies paraphraseth the words , tales doctrinas , quae nihil aliud sunt quam mandata hominum , such doctrines as are nothing else but mens commandements , which being taught by those that were to be teachers of the law , and seemed to be such in stead of gods precepts , were therefore accounted as gods worship , or his feare . . there is a censure passed on this practice [ in vaine doe they worship me ] which words are not in the hebrew , yet may be collected from the woe threatned to such teachers , isa. . . whereby god disclaimes such teaching and practice as being no service of his , though the teachers and practisers of such commands of men , imagined they honored god thereby . so that the plaine truth that this enunciation of our lord christ affords is this : that however they thinke of their actions they doe is vaine worship god , who teach for doctrines mens precepts . the selfe same truth is seconded by saint paul , who in his epistle to the colassians ch. . v. , , . speakes thus ; why as though living in the world are ye subject to ordinances ; after the commandements and doctrines of men ? which things have indeed a shew of wisedome in will-worship . in which you may clearely see that the apostle condemnes dogmatizing , that is , either teaching ▪ urging , or submitting to {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , orders and rites , as the word signifies , col. . . ephes. . . luk. . . which are after the commandements and doctrines of men , which he sayes have a shew of wisedome in wil-worship , which hath no true wisedome , nor pleaseth god . that i may the more clearely and fully open the truth in this point , i shall distinctly endeavour to declare , what these doctrines commandements of men were , and how the pharisees taught them . . how they did worship god in vaine . . why they did in vaine worship god . concerning the first of these , it is plaine that these pharisees and scribes did many wayes teach contrary to the law of god , to wit , in expounding the lawes of god as if they did onely prohibit the grosse externall act , matth. . , , , , . they urged the smaller matters of the law , as tithing of mint , and neglected the greater , matth. . . but in this place that which our saviour objects to them is that they sought to establish the traditions of men , though gods commands were thereby rejected , or neglected . particularly that a man was not to regard the honouring of his father and mother , if he had taken on him the rash and impious vow of corban , which was directly contra legem , against the law , to allow men for an unjust oathes sake to breake gods plaine precept . but chiefely that they taught men to observe things praeter legem , besides the law , instead of gods law , as the washing hands afore meales , the washing of cups and pots , brazen vessells and tables , with many such like traditions invented by men : these things they strictly urged on the people , excepting much at the omission of them , conniving at , yea countenancing the transgression of god precepts : they ascribed so much authority to the traditions of the elders that they made it a great crime to transgresse them ; they conceived and taught that the not observing of them made men unholy and uncleane , else they would not have been offended with christ , when he taught that the eating with unwashen hands defileth not a man ; they conceived their observation of them did please god as if he were thereby honoured . now this teaching for doctrines mens precepts is worshipping god in vaine , because it doth not please god . frusta fit quod non attingit finem , that is done in vaine which attaines not its end , wherefore sith such commandements of men are observed that god may be pleased , and god is not thereby pleased , they must needes be in vaine . and indeed god is not pleased with such service , sith he counts it no service to him , yea he is much displeased with it , as appeares by the threatning , isa. . . because their feare towards me is taught by the precepts of men , therefore behold i will proceede to doe a marvellous worke among this people , even a marvailous worke and a wonder , for the wisedome of their wise men shall perish , and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid . all which came to passe when the pharisees and scribes who were accounted the onely {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or wise men , doctors of the lawes , rabbins and masters in israel , by reason of their placing religion in traditions of men , washings , long robes , phylacteries and such like , were delivered over to such blindnesse and sottishnesse of spirit as to be ignorant of their messiah , and his kingdome , the true righteousnesse of the gospell , spirituall new-birth , and other heavenly truths of gods profound counsell in christ . a most heavy , but most just judgement of god , that like as when the heathens knowing god by his workes they held the truth in unrighteousnesse , so these knowing him by his law , but loving unrighteousnesse , should become vaine in their imaginations , and their foolish heart be darkened , professing themselves to be wise they should become fooles , rom. . , . for what more foolish then to thinke that the onely wise god who is an immortall spirit should be pleased with such toyes , as washings , phylacteries and such like observances , when there is no philosopher that is given to contemplation , but thinkes such things to be rather babies for children to play with , then bookes for men to reade ? of this censure and judgement there may be many reasons given . as first , it is vaine to worship or to thinke to please god by the doctrines which are commandements of men : for god is not pleased with mans devices , what is devised by man comes from a corrupt and foolish heart , and such a corrupt fountaine must needs send forth but puddle water . and this is true of the best of men in the things of god : the lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise that they are vaine , cor. . . whence the apostle , col. . . when he speakes of the things devised by men who introduced {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , a wil-worship , sayes of them that they had a shew of wisedome , they seemed to be wise inventions to beget reverence to god , and humility in mens spirits , but it was farre otherwise in truth . for as children doe count many things wise which understanding men doe laugh at : so carnall hearts of men esteemed as wise among men doe count many things to be wise , as duckings , bowings , washings , whippings , creepings , pilgrimages , and such like gestures , usages , and rites invented by men to expresse humility , devotion and reverence to god , which the almighty , who is a most holy spirit , contemnes as childish , apish , theatrical and ridiculous : besides ; we may consider the vanity of such inventions for gods worship by the event . for whereas many things have beene invented and used by men out of a supposed good intent to further devotion experience hath sufficiently proved that they have corrupted the church with superstition and idolatry . thus images thought fit by gregory to bee made laymens bookes became in time laymens and clergy mens , gods too , the signe of the crosse invented to testifie their faith in christ before heathens , became the object of faith and adoration instead of christ among christians , the praying at the tombes of martyrs proceeded to the invocation of martyrs , monasticall orders and vowes highly commended for the promoting of chastity and piety became the chiefest meanes to further superstition , ignorance , sensuality and uncleannesse , that ever the devill invented : the like might be said of reserving the eucharist , keeping of festivals , of fasting dayes , preserving of reliques , pilgrimages , and innumerable other devices , which in processe of time , though at first invented for a good use , turned to the great detriment of religion , and corrupting of the gospell : i thinke an instance cannot be given of a device of man pretending to advance piety , and to edifie the church , when god hath provided other meanes to that end , which hath not in the conclusion hindered piety ; and more or lesse , destroyed the purity of religion . so sottish and blinde is the wisedome of man in appointing and directing the service of god . secondly , in vaine is gods feare taught by mens precepts , because god is not pleased with carnall observances and bodily exercises : bodily exercise , saith the apostle tim. . . profiteth little , but godlinesse is profitable to all things , where the apostle opposeth godlinesse to bodily exercise , and thereby sheweth that bodily exercise is not godlinesse , and therefore profits but a little , to wit among men , getting esteeme with them , but nothing with god , whose promises onely are made to true godlinesse which is a spirituall exercise . for god is a spirit , and they that worship him , must worship him in spirit and in truth , saith our saviour , john . . , . now mens precepts are altogether about bodily things , as washings , gestures , garments , fastings , feastings , processions , buildings , and such like ; all which reach no further then the body , cannot rectifie or amend the soule : and make it more like to god . thirdly , this teaching for doctrines mens precepts displeaseth god , as being injurious to him , and that in a double respect : first , teaching and urging mens commands in stead of doctrines , whereby gods worship should be taught , intrencheth on gods prerogative , who is the onely lawgiver to his church , jam. . . for his worship . for as it is a prerogative of a king to appoint the wayes of his owne service and honour , and he should be taken to be very presumptuous and arrogant that should take upon him to prescribe a fashion of attendance , suite , and service to his prince without his consent , when he hath otherwise declared his will ; so is it much more intolerable pride , and presumption in a mortall man , to appoint a way of service to god , which he never consented to , but hath otherwise directed his owne service . and for the same reason it is a transferring of gods prerogative on a man , when he doth servilly consent by subjecting his conscience to such usurpation . secondly , god is injured by the thoughts that such superstitious persons have of god , when they conceive god to be such a one as will be pleased with humane ceremonies , to be so childish or simple as to be affected with pompes , and shewes , and gestures , and carnall rites , which he never appointed . i remember the saying of a man of great wit to this effect : that superstition alike injures god , as atheisme . for as plutarch sayes , i had as liefe men should say there is no such man as plutarch , as to say plutarch is a foole ; so saith the author it is as injurious to god to say he is so childish , as to be taken with superstition , as to deny his being . fourthly , this teaching for doctrines mens precepts produceth many other evill effects . first , it opposeth gods word , his law , his gospell sundry wayes . first , because it brings in another rule of worship then gods law , to wit tradition of elders , custome , example , or opinion of seeming grave , wise and pious men , of affected teachers . for these are the rules by which superstitious persons are guided , not by gods word . now it is a high crime against god to follow any other rule of our worship and obedience to him , sith he hath injoyned deut. . . ye shall not adde unto the word which i command you , neither shall you diminish ought from it , that ye may keepe the commandements of the lord your god , which i command you . prov. . . adde not thou unto his words , lest he reprove thee and thou bee found a lier . secondly , because it opposeth the manifestation of the cleare light of the gospell . as shadowes darken the light of the sunne that shines in the aire , so carnall rites invented by men obscure the spirituall beauty , and splendour of the gospell , so that by reason of such rites the gospell is either not considered , or understood carnally : thus the ceremonies of moses law were as a vaile before the eyes of the jewes , that they could not looke to the end of that which is abolished , cor. . . and the popish ceremonies darkned the true light of the gospell . and let any man looke into those places in which there is so much preaching of ceremonies , and church orders , and such a regular observation of them , as in places where the cathedrall and canonicall preachers , and officiating priests doe beare sway , he shall finde little spirituall understanding , and lively feeling of the doctrine and grace of christ ; the highest pitch that they bring men to , ( and there are but few that are brought by them so farre ) is some morall civility , some outward regularity in the outward formes of devotion , which yet is accompanyed , as it was in the pharisees , with bitter and virulent enmity against holy and ardent zeale for christ , and shewes it selfe to be but pharisaicall hypocrisie when it is brought to triall . it is usually alledged that such ceremonies are appointed for edification , and that the text cor. . . let all things be done unto edifying , allowes men , specially prelates in a synod , to ordaine what they conceive may be for edifying . but the occasion of these words plainly shewes that the apostle meanes not every arbitrary devise which is conceited by men , though the wisest , most grave and pious , to bee for edifying , must be done , for then the text would impose a necessity of subjection to such humane devices . but the text is plainly meant of such things as are necessary to edification , as speaking in a knowne tongue , and without confusion . and although i know ceremonies invented by men are pretented to serve for edification , yet i must professe that i never found in my reading , or experience , that ever any person by such rites , or observances was wonne to the profession of christ , or brought to any spirituall knowledge of christ , any true faith or sincere obedience to him . possibly they may beget some kinde of raptures of carnall delight , through melodious soundes or pleasant sights , some kinde of womanish pity , and teares , such as the acting of a stage play will draw from some persons : but that ever they begat sanctifying knowledge , sound repentance , holy mortification of sinne , lively faith , fruitfull living to god , i assure my selfe cannot be shewed : but it is certaine on the contrary that the teaching for doctrines commandements of men hath occasioned men to oppose the principall point of the gospell of chri●t , to wit , justification by faith in him , and contrary to the covenant of grace in christ to conceive a righteousnesse in themselves by the observation of mens commands , as in the pharisees and papists , and al sorts of superstitious persons it doth abundantly appeare . thirdly , because the teachers of precepts of men for doctrines doe still oppose the fruitfull and faithfull preaching of gods word . thus it was in the pharisees , thus in papists , and thus it appeares still by experience . they that urge or affect humane religious rites are disaffected and adversaries to godly preaching : where the one is set up , the other goes downe . and this shewes a malignity in them when they are so inconsistent with that , of which our saviour said , one thing is necessary , luk. . . even as weedes though never so pleasant to the eyes are judged to be hurtfull when they destroy good corne , which should preserve mens lives . and for this reason should be weeded out when they have this effect , what ever pretence of antiquity or esteeme they have . lastly , it opposeth gods word in that it introduceth an obedience , which alwayes diminisheth or annihilates the obedience due to gods law : were there no more instances to prove this , then what we finde of the pharisees charged upon them by our lord christ , mark . . . that laying aside the commandement of god they held the tradition of men , v. . ye reject the commandement of god that ye may keep your owne tradition , ver. . making the word of god of none effect through your tradition , this were enough to make it appeare that as pharaohs leane kine devoured the fat ones , so this superstitious devotion to mens precepts devoures the true obedience that is due to gods commands : but it is also manifest that such is the effect of observing humane traditions by the practises of papists , and ignorant superstitious people in all countries : for as for papists it is notorious how zealous they are for the traditions , as they call them , of the church , but how carelesse they are of gods commands : i had rather expresse it in the words of another then mine owne . what papist in all christendome hath ever beene heard to pray dayly with his family , or sing but a psalme at home ? looke into the universall course of the catholike life , there you shall finde the decalogue professedly broken , besides the ordinary practice of idolatry , and frequency of oathes : who ever saw gods day duely kept in any city , village or houshold under the jurisdiction of rome ? every obscure holy day takes the wall of it and thrusts it into the channel : who sees not obedience to authority so slighted , that it stands onely to the mercy of humane dispensation ? and in the rest of gods lawes who sees not how foule sins passe for veniall ? and how easily veniall sins passe their satisfaction : for which a crosse or drop of holy water is sufficient amends ? who sees not how no place can be left for truth , where there is full roome given to equivocation ? and how true the like is of the late prelaticall party , and their superstitious adherents , who have so zealously and industriously promoted humane ceremonies , it is abundantly manifest , by their opening a gap for licentiousnesse in prophaning the lords day , by their discountenancing and suppressing the diligent preaching of gods word , by their countenancing drinking of healths , common swearing , gaming and other practises of sensuality , either practising them or not reproving them , but speaking favourably of such as use them , and by their continuall disquieting of those that have sought to promote the knowledge and worship of god by praying in their families , repeating gods word , and praising of god together , and chiefly by their devillish practises whereby they endeavour to hinder the reformation of the ignorance , ungodlinesse , and prophanenesse that hath overspread the land by reason of an unworthy ministery and corrupt discipline . and indeed this is the genuine effect that followes this sinne , that it makes men averse from , and negligent of gods commands . saint augustines observation in his . epistle to januarius of the men of his time is well knowne , that those who made conscience to touch the ground with their bare feete in their octaves , made no scruple of conscience to be drunken . and the like is still found true , that those that are scrupulous to omit a church order , an old tradition , an humane rite , scarse ever make scruple of being drunke ; of officious , and jesting lies , of charming , or going to such as say prayers to helpe cattell , of entertaining people in riotous manner , of hearing and spreading lies of godly persons , of faithfull preachers : but are rather so besotted as to thinke some of these to be good workes , or at least that there is no harme in them . in a word , there is such a venome in this practice of teaching and observing of doctrines mens precepts , that it strangeth the mindes of people and ministers from learning , and studying gods word , and inclines them to heede and invent and be led by tales and legends of lies framed to get credit to superstitious usages that have no strength of them selves . another evill effect by this sinne is against gods worship bringing men to an hypocriticall image of devotion without life , a forme of godlinesse without power : this might easily be verified by instancing in the pharisees and papists praying and fasting , being but a meere semblance and shell of those duties . and thus it is with those people among our selves that place their religion in their rites , and thinke they shall have a new religion when any old custome or rite is left ; they thinke they have kept a fast well , if they have forborne eating , though there have beene no examination of conscience , humiliation of soule , or repentance from sinne : they thinke they pray well if they be present when the service booke is read , and say after the minister , though without knowledge , attention of minde , faith in gods promises , or fervency of desire : they thinke they receive the lords supper well , if without any godly preparation , spirituall meditation , they doe with empty stomacks and faire deportment eate the bread and drinke the wine of solemne seasons : they thinke they use baptisme well , if they get some to stand at the font as sureties , for the childs faith , ( which i thinke to be proper to christ , heb. . . ) the childe to be sprinckled with water , & crossed on the fore-head , though there be no sense of the guilt and defilement of sinne , utter ignorance of the excellency and necessity of spirituall new birth . and the like is their carriage in hearing the word read and preached , in singing of psalmes , &c. in all there is the popish conceit of apus operatum , that the worke done pleaseth god , that if they have faire service and their rites they are well , though they are no whit changed , enlightned , awakened in their consciences , or altered and quickned in their conversation . adde hereunto that this wil-worship puffs men up with spirituall pride ; thus the pharisees were proud of their often fastings , and the friers are lifted up in great conceits of their holinesse by their observing the rules of their orders , and formall protestants in the observatition of there customes and traditions . true religion humbles men : but empty ▪ ceremonies like winde in a bladder puffe up the soule . finally , this wil-worship and teaching for doctrines mens precepts , is opposite to true charity , in that it begets hatred against true and zealous worshippers of god , and this hatred shewes it selfe not onely in evill thoughts , and beleeving all false reports , and hard censures of them , but also in bitter invectives against them for not affecting and liking their superstitious and virulent persecution of those that conforme not to their practice , though it be onely because of tendernesse of conscience . hence it was that the pharisees could better comply with such wicked men as caiaphas , pilate , herod , then with christ , his disciples , and john baptist ; the papists with jewes , turkes , sodomits , then with the godly divines of the reformed churches ; the formal prelatists among prote●tants with the most prophane libertines , or idolatrous papists , then with a zealous preacher of the gospell ; yea the most strict pharisees have beene still the most incessant persecutors of christ , the most devout friers , the most eager and bloody inquisitors , the most zealous for church canons and rites , the most heavy and unrelenting deprivers , censurers and vexers of reverend ministers and unspotted christians , whom they have confessed to agree with them in the same faith , and to dissent onely from them in discipline and ceremonies . secondly , it causeth contentions , schismes , and divisions in the church , witnesse the great contentions betweene the easterne and westerne , saxon and brittish churches , about easter , monkes and friers , about the rules of their orders conformists & non-conformists , about ceremonies , which the defenders acknowledge but trifles , yet promote with as much bitter zeale , as if salus eccles ae verteretur in istis , the safety of the church , faith and religion depended on them . thirdly , by it christian liberty is impaired , which being a precious thing to a christian soule cannot be taken away without injury ; all wil-worship at first conception hath pretence of order and decency ▪ perhaps the things in which it is placed are taken but as indifferent , which yet in processe of time gaine opinion of holinesse and necessity to that end , and so bring the conscience into bondage . fourthly , to conclude , this evill tends to the detriment of mens goods , the pillaging of their purses , for no benefit to the owners , much hinderance to the poore , labouring ministers , and common-wealth on which it should be bestowed . many a pound is given in legacies and contributions , is extorted by courts , for maintaining vestments , organs , processions , windowes , buildings , and other things unnecessary , when the poore want , painefull preachers live on a small stipend , the common-wealth is brought to straights : for superstition is costly , and supers●●tious persons are either lavishly profuse , or slavisbly ready to bestow their goods for very vanities which doe them no good , when by a right bestowing of their goods they might make them friends of the unrighteous mammon and be re●eived into everlasting habitations . for application of this truth . that which hath beene said may helpe us to take the right dimensions of this sinne : as in all other things pertaining to god , mans reason judgeth very corruptly , so in particular about censuring of sinnes : sinnes which injure men , and harme them in their bodies , goods or name , are accounted hainous , and the acting of them stirres up mens spirits to rage and fury against the authors . but sinnes against gods excellency and glory , though they be indeed camells , yet are swallowed downe as gnats . they that cry out against theft , and murther , and slander , are very favourable in censuring idolatry , blasphemy and prophanenesse . hence it is that superstition is conceived harmelesse , and superstitious persons , though most injurious to god , yet counted harmelesse by men ; it is hard to convince men that this is a sinne , or to bring them to any serious repentance for it . but would men seriously lay to heart that which hath beene said , and judge righteous judgement , it would be found that wil-worship is a sinne of a deepe dye , estranging the heart farre from god , and stirring up his soule against men , wherefore it concernes especially two sorts of persons to lay this to heart . first , the papists , both clergy and people , who are horribly guilty of this point of pharisaisme in teaching & observing innumerable doctrines & usages of rites , customes , ceremonies after the commandement of men without gods word . it were an infinite businesse to reckon up all their humane religious devices in their fastings , sacraments , burialls , festivalls , churches , religious orders , and the like . they pretend that the churches orders are gods orders , and for that purpose alledge , luk. . . hee that heareth you , heareth mee : and bee that despiseth you , despiseth mee . but this is absurdly alledged . for this extends not to every thing that the seventy disciples ( to whom those words were spoken ) should devise of themselves : but onely to what they should teach according to that injunction matth. . . given to the apostles , that they should teach all nations to observe al things whatsoever he commanded them . and in this limitation he that heareth the least minister of the gospell heareth christ , as well as he that heareth the pope or a synod of prelates , whom they ridiculously call the church . they tell us that their traditions are not contra legem , against the law , but praeter legem , besides the law . to which we reply . the same might have been said for the pharisees washings , for which neverthelesse our saviour chargeth them with hypocris●e . and indeed though the things themselves were not plainely contra legem against gods law , yet the practice of teaching & n●…ng such things for or instead of gods feare is directly against gods law , which forbids us to adde or diminish from gods commandements . secondly , the late prelaticall prevailing party of this kingdome may be charged as guilty of the same sinne of which our saviour indited these pharisees in whose steps they tread , i say the late prelaticall party , that i may not be thought to lay this imputation on the first reformers , and their reverend successors , who were constant and zealous preachers of the gospell of christ , and many of them confirmed it by their sufferings . i say the late prevailing prelaticall party , because i conceive that some of the prelates of this land have beenemore considerate then to urge and teach commandements of men in that manner that the prevailing party hath done . i mean in their teaching and practise about images , crucifixes , altars , rayles , tapers , bowing to or towards altars , praying towards the east , bowing at the naming of the word jesus , consecrating churches , confirmation , copes , organes , surplisses , crossing at the solemnity of baptisme , and the like . all which have beene urged and used of late with a pharisaicall and popish spirit as if by the using them men were made more holy , god served , and the not conforming to them a crime of want of devotion and reverence to god . and yet the same party shew themselves adversaries to the constant and fruitfull preaching of gods word , sanctifying of the lords day , exercising of the duties of religion in private houses , as prayer , repeating of gods word , praysing of god , godly conference of scripture , reformation of prophane swearing , excessive drinking , gaming , sporting , and the like palpable sinnes ; they inveigh much against the sacriledge of keeping back tithes , and other ecclesiasticall dues from ministers , and yet winke at it as if it were no sacriledge in ministers to pervert holy things to maintaine pompe and riot , without doing the worke for which the wages is due , to wit the laborious preaching of the gospell : turning the ministry of the word into an officiating priest-hood to observe rites injoyned by canons of men . the exception i conceive may be taken to this charge is , that they are not urged as if they were necessary , but as things indifferent , for order and decency . whereto i reply . first , that for some of them it cannot be conceived that they are indifferent , but plainely evill , as the setting up of images in temples , crucifixes , &c. for some of them it is not denyed but that they are indifferent in se , of themselves , and of their owne nature : for my part i conceive that it is indifferent in it selfe to weare a white linnen garment or a blacke gowne , to pray with the face toward the east or the west : if any say they are simply in themselves unlawfull , i cannot excuse them from negative superstition , in denying the use of that to be lawfull , which god hath not forbidden to be used . for most of them there can hardly be a colour of appointing them in their use prescribed and urged for order and decency onely , sith any man may easily perceive that they tend onely to bring in a gay sense affecting spendour in gods service , and serve to breed jewish and popish conceits in the mindes of people . it is granted that many things are left to the disposing of the governours of the church pertaining to order and decencie , cor. . . though it is to be considered that how farre that permission extends , it is not without difficulty to determine , and oftentimes under pretext of that speech many things are appointed that pertaine not to meere order and decency . i adde further , that some of them were intended in their institution by the reformers to be used onely for decency and orders sake , though perhaps erroneously . but as for the late urging and practising of them , by the late prevailing prelaticall party , they have beene urged for a further end then order and decency , yea with a pharisaicall minde , as hath beene said : and this may appeare from their writings , sayings , and actions . from their writings , which tell us , that those church ceremonies are the great witnesse to the world , that men may see our devotion and glorifie our father which is in heaven ; that the promoting them is the settlement of gods externall worship ; that this businesse of promoting church ceremonies is the piety of the times , the good worke in hand : which speake excessively of the authority of the church , that with like reverence men are to obey the conmands of bishops as gods , when they command not things contrary to god , that what is decreed in the holy councells of bishops is all to bee attributed to gods will : that church orders are to be obeyed without examining the reasons : in which writings wee finde that text , phil. . . brought to binde christians to a ceremony of bowing at the naming of jesus , in the church here , which is most clearely meant of universall subjection of all persons to christ , wil they nill they , at the day of judgement , as appeares by comparing it with the text , rom. , , . and that text heb. . . is produced for a materiall altar , which the whole context shewes to be meant metaphorically . from their sayings , as that frequent speech , no ceremony no bishop , and yet bishops avouched to be jure divino , these impious yet frequent speeches , wherein to their owne inexcusable shame , they sticke not to professe that they love a papist though an idolater , better then a puritane , whom they acknowledge not to differ from them in matters of faith and religion , but onely in discipline and ceremonies , that they had rather joyne with the former then the latter . from their doings , as their conniving at , yea and favouring of popery , but extreame severity to those that conformed not to their ceremonies , their censuring men for the meere omission of them , suspending , depriving , excommunicating , imprisoning , fining those that could or yeeld to them though charged with no other crime , when al sort of erroneous teachers , and licentious livers , were tolerated and greatly favoured , from their discountenancing preaching of the gospell , and promoting a bare officiating ministry without preaching : from their violent endeavours to obtrude on scotland their rites , from their practises in contriving the oath of the late synod , and in a word , from the whole course of their proceedings tending to superstition , formality and popery , as the remonstrance of the state of the kingdome by the house of commons in this present parliament doth declare . secondly , from hence some apology may be framed for defence of them that of late have disused those ceremonies which heretofore they used : great outcries are made in some places against such , as refractary to government , changeable with the times . the former imputation is easily answered , if the conscience conceive upon reason that the continuing of the use of them would be sinfull . for no man will say that in the use of unnecessary ceremonies , which the conscience thinkes upon probable grounds out of gods word to bee unlawfull , a christian is bound to doe that which authority commands . as for the oth●r imputation , although it cannot be called a fault for a man to change his minde upon reasons not knowne or not considered so well before , specially in such disputable points ; ( for what judicious divine is there who hath not in some things altered his opinion ? or what meere man is he that may not by after thoughts correct the former ? ) yet the truth is , in point of ceremony , and things indifferent , that some things may be unlawfull at one time , which are not unlawfull at another : for in such things the differing circumstances , intentions and ends in using and imposing them , may make them lawfull at one time and unlawfull at another , without any lightnesse or inconstancy in the judgement : who knowes not that saint paul one while used the ceremonies of moses law , which he would by no meanes suffer to be used at another time ? and in this present matter i conceive they who have changed their opinion and practice may be justified by foure reasons . first , because as hath beene proved the ceremonies heretofore declared and appointed as indifferent for order and decency onely , have beene urged of late as needefull offices of holinesse , as if they were necessary evidences and meanes of devotion , of more moment then the preaching of gods word . now it is the plaine doctrine of the apostle col. . . when ceremonies are obtruded as necessary , we are not to submit to them . if ye be dead with christ , saith the apostle , from the rudiments of the world , why as though living in the world are ye subject to ordinances . peccant igitur saith bishop davenant on those words , non modo qui nova decreta fabricantur in religione , sed qui iisdem se subj●ciunt , & libertatem christi sanguine partam patiuntur sibi eripi : quid ritibus oneramini ? inquit apostolus : quasi diceret , vestrum est hoc jugum recusare , & in li●erate quâ christus vos liberavit perstare , ut paulus m●net , gal. . . that is , they therefore sinne not onely who make new decrees in religion , but who subject themselves to the same , and suffer the liberty gotten by the blood of christ to be taken from them . why are yee burdened with rites ? saith the apostle , as if he should say , it belongs to you to refuse this yoke , and to persist in the liberty in which christ hath freed you , as paul admonisheth , gal. . . secondly , because it is apparent by many proofes , and declared in the remonstrance of the state of the kingdome , that they have beene urged and used for the reduction of superstition and popery , and for the hindering of true godlinesse . papists themselves boasted of it that we were comming neare to them , and they gathered it from the outward face of this church , as was of late in the urging and use of ceremonies . besides they began to corrupt the doctrine of religion , specially that point of the free grace of god , as the booke called the cumerb●rtant selfe - conviction proves from their writings . and it is the rule of master francis mason in his booke of the authority of the church on cor. . . that when the doctrine declineth , the ceremony is perverted . now the apostles practice is a sure rule , who having circumcised timothy would not yeeld to have titus circumcised , when he saw that by yeelding , the preservation of christian liberty and of the truth of the gospell , was endangered : gal. . , , . thirdly , because they are found to foment ignorance and superstition in the people . and this by innumerable experiments is manifest , that by reason of the constant continuance of them religion is placed in them , yea the omitting of a ceremony is conceived an alteration of religion , they are zealous for them as if all their religion were placed in them . nor is this onely in places where there hath beene no preacher to shew their errour : but also where they have been often and fully taught the contrary . and indeed where humane ceremonies are p●ecisely used , the word of god is little minded : now in this case though the things be indifferent in themselves , yet are they not to be used to the scandall of mens soules . it is the speech of the second part of the sermon of fasting in the second tome of homilies , that gods church ought not , neither may it be so tyed to that or any other order now made or hereafter to be made and devised by the authority of man , but that it may lawfully and for just causes , alter , change or mitigate those ecclesiasticall decrees and orders , yea recede wholly from them and breake them , when they tend either to superstition , or to impiety , when they draw the people from god , rather then worke any edisication in them . fourthly , because they have found them to increase more and more , and the yeelding to some gives encouragement to adde more . now it is a rule agreed that ceremonies if many are an intolerable burthen . it makes the case of the church christian worse then that of the jewes , if as saint augustine observes epist. . ad januarium , the christian church being freed from legall ordinances of god be burthened with humane presumptions . now as he that will beare a little burthen , will throw off all if more bee added to over burthen him , so may that man that would beare a few ceremonies ▪ justly throw off all when the burthen is increased without measure : especially sith multitude of ceremonies shadow the gospell , making the religion rather carnall , like the jewish , then spirituall , like the christian ; & hindering the fruit thereof from ripening , as too many leaves doe a few grapes that are covered by them . thirdly , from hence we may take occasion to admonish ministers that they avoid the way of these pharisees , who taught for doctrines mens precepts . con●ider i beseech you whereto you are called , to be ministers of christ and stewards of the mysteries of god , cor. . . not observers of ceremonies and teachers of church orders : give me leave to expostulate with you . are ye called to maintaine mens traditions ? or gods word ? the ceremonies of men ? or the gospell of christ ? how will you then give your account to christ when you are so zealous for mens traditions , so cold for his gospell ? when ye exclaime against them that omit an humane ceremony , favour and commend them that teach not the way of salvation ? when yee foment the hatred of the people against those that disuse ceremonies of men , favour them that neglect the commands of god ? when ye cherish the ignorance and superstition of the common people which ye should labour to weede out of their hearts ? is it not enough for you to worship god in vaine but that ye teach men so to doe ? i beseech you consider that threatning before alledged , isa. . . that for this cause the wisedome of the wise men shall perish , and the understanding of the prudent shall be hid . remember the threatning , mal. . . therefore have i also made you contemptible and base before all the people , according as yee have not kept my wayes , but have beene partiall in the law . fourthly , from hence we may take occasion to admonish the people to take heed of such pharisaicall teachers , as teach for doctrines commandements of men : our saviour christ having manifested the hypocrisie of the scribes and pharisees in this thing , bids his disciples let them alone , telling them that they were blinde leaders of the blinde ; and if the blinde lead the blinde , both fall into the ditch , matth. . . and elsewhere , beware of the leaven of the pharisees , which is hypocrisie , luk. . . and surely people have neede to take heede of such teachers , sith superstition , as it is a pernitious evill , so it easily insinuates into peoples mindes , and sticks fast in them under shew of antiquity , decency and gravity . i know this will bee interpreted as if it were a hainous thing to perswade people to withdraw themselves from the ministers of their parish though never so negligent or corrupt . but let bishop bilson answer for me , imo populus ipse deficiente magistratu christiano deserere falsos & improbos pastores jure divino potest , coercere vero minime . declinare & derelinquere eos possunt , cogere aut punire non possunt . vis et vindicta gladio alligatae , extra privatorum sortem ac caetum collocatae sunt . vnde paulus rom. . observate eos qui dissidia & scandala contra doctrinam quam edocti estis faciunt , et declinate ab iis . oves meae , inquit dominus noster johan . . vocem meam audiunt , & sequuntur me . alienum autem nequaquam sequentur , sed fugient ab eo . idem cyprianus et reliqui episcopi consulti rescripserunt epist. lib. . ep. . separemini , inquit dominus , a tabernaculis hominum istorum durissimorum , et nolite tangere ea quae ad eos pertinent , ne simul pereatis in peccatis eorum ▪ propter quod plebs obsequens praeceptis domini , et deum metuens , a peccatore praeposito separare se debet , nec se ad sacrilegi sacerdotis sacrificia miscere : quando ipsa ( defectu fidelis magistratus ) maxim● habeat potestatem vel eligendi dignos sacerdotes , vel recusandi indignos . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sir fran. bacons essayes of superstition . sect. . dr. hall quo vadis or censure of travaile . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . archbishop . laud epist. dedic. before the relat ▪ of his conference with fisher heylin coale from the altar . bishop white answer to burton of the sab. p. . reeve in his expos. of the cat . bishop andrewes sermon in locum : widdowes lawles kneeles puritan . bishop andrews answer to the . ch of cardinall perrouns reply . heylin antid . lincoln . sect. . sect. . sect. . libro de perp . eul . gubernat . c. . an examen of the sermon of mr. stephen marshal about infant-baptisme in a letter sent to him. tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) an examen of the sermon of mr. stephen marshal about infant-baptisme in a letter sent to him. tombes, john, ?- . [i.e. ], [ ] p. printed by r.w. for george whitington, london : . "divided into foure parts, . concerning the antiquity of infant-baptism, . concerning the prejudices against antipaedobaptists from their miscarriages, . concerning the arguments from scripture for infant-baptisme, . concerning the objections against infant-baptisme. in which are maintained these positions, . infant-baptisme is not so ancient as is pretended, but as now taught is a late innovation, . antipaedobaptisme hath no ill influence on church or common-wealth, . infant-baptisme cannot be deduced from holy scripture, . infant-baptisme is a corruption of the ordinance of baptisme." attributed to john tombes--wing. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify 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text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng marshall, stephen, ?- . infant baptism. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - spi global rekeyed and resubmitted - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an examen of the sermon of mr. stephen marshal , about infant-baptisme , in a letter sent to him : divided into foure parts . . concerning the antiquity of infant-baptisme . . concerning the prejudices against antipaedobaptists from their miscarriages . . concerning the arguments from scripture , for infant-baptisme . . concerning the objections against infant-baptisme . in which are maintained these positions . . infant-baptisme is not so ancient as is pretended , but as now taught is a late innovation . . antipaedobaptisme hath no ill influence on church , or common-wealth . . infant-baptisme cannot be deduced from holy scripture . . infant-baptisme is a corruption of the ordinance of baptisme . london , printed by r. w. for george whitington . . infant-baptisme is not so ancient as is pretended : as now taught , is a late innovation . part i. concerning the antiquity of infant-baptisme . sir , it is now full nine moneths since , that being informed by one of the members of the assembly , in which you are one , that there was a committee chosen out of the members of the assembly , to give satisfaction in the point of paedo-baptisme , and advised by the same person out of his tender love to me , to present the reasons of my doubts about paedo-baptisme , to that committee ; i drew them up in latine , in nine arguments , in a scholastique way , and they were delivered unto mr. whitaker the chair-man of the committee , about nine moneths since : to which i added after , an addition of three more reasons of doubting , with a supplement of some other things wanting ; which was delivered to mr. tuckney , and joyned by him to the former papers . my aim therein was , either to find better ground then i had then found to practise the baptizing of infants , from that assembly of learned and holy men , whom i supposed able and willing to resolve their brother in the min●st●ry ; or else according to the solemn covenant i have taken , to endeavour the reformation of these churches according to gods word , by informing that assembly what i conceived amisse in the great ordinance of baptizing . the successe was such , as i little expected : to this day i have heard nothing from the committee by way of answer to those doubts ; but i have met with many pamphlets , and some sermons , tending to make the questioning of that point odious to the people , and to the magistracie . among others , reading the sermon of mr. richard vines , on ephes. . . before the lord major : and the sermon you preached at westminster abbey . i perceive there is such a prejudice in you , and it may seem by the vote pass●d about the members of the visible church , in the generality of the assembly , that he is likely to be exploded , if not censured , that shall but dispute against it : and therefore little or no likelihood that this matter will be argued , as i conceive it doth deserve , in your assembly . and further , i perceive there is a great zeale in your spirit against the denying of children baptisme , as if it were a more cru●ll thing than hazaels dashing out childrens brains ; that it were an exclusion of them out of the covenant of grace , &c. which i the more admire , considering the report which hath been of you , as a sober , learned , holy , well-tempered man , that you should be so transported in this matter , as to be so vehement in maintaining that which was accounted heretofore in many ages , but an ecclesiasticall tradition , for which you are fain to fetch a command from circumcision , and conf●sse no expresse example in scripture for it : and go not about to prove it , but by consequence inferr'd from five conclusions , which though you call undeniable , yet others do not think so , nor yet see reason to subscribe to your judgment . you are not ignorant , i pr●sume , that mr. daniel rogers , in his treatise of the sacrament of baptisme , part . pag. . confessed himself yet unconvinced by demonstration of scripture for it . and whereas your achilles for paedo-baptisme , is the circumcision of infants , me thinks mr. balls words , ( reply to the answer of the new-england elders , about the third and fourth positions , pag. , . ) cut the sinews of that argument . but in whatsoever they agree , or differ , we must look to the institution , and neither stretch it wider , nor draw it narrower then the lord hath made it ; ●or he is the institutor of the sacraments according to his own good pleasure ; and it is our part to lea●n of him , both to whom , how , and for what end the sacraments are to be administred ; how they agree , and wherein they differ . in all which we must affirm nothing , but what god hath taught us , and as he hath taught us . and whereas the words of paul , cor. . . are your principall strength to prove the covenant-holines of infants of a believing parent , musculus a writer of good esteem , in his commentary upon that place confesseth , that he had abused formerly that place against the anabaptists , but found it impertinent to that purpose . and for my part , after most carefull and serious reading and perusing of many authors , and among the rest , your sermon , i cannot yet find it to be any other then an innovation , in comparison of many other things rejected late , maintained by erroneous and dangerous principles , having no true ground from christs institution , which alone can acquit it from will-worship , and which hath occasioned many errors in doctrine , corruptions in discipline and manners , unnecessary and vain disputes , and almost quite changed the ordinance of baptisme . wherefore , upon advise , i have resolved to examine your sermon , who are a leading man , and in respect of your eminency , either likely to be a very good , or very bad instrument , as you are gui●dd ; that you may either rectifie me , or i you ; and that we may ( if the lord shall see it good ) give one another the right hand of fellowship , and stand fast in one mind in the truth of the gospel , and cleare the truth of god to the people , whose eyes are upon us . and so much the rather have i pitched upon your sermon , because i conceive it contains in a plain way as much as can be wel said for poedo-baptisme ; and your epistle seems to intimate your publishing of it to be for the ease of the assembly , and possibly it may be all i may expect from them . now the lord vouchsafe to frame both your spirit and mine , that we may seek and find truth , in humility and love , in this great businesse , which concerns the soules , & perhaps lives and estates of many millions , yea of all godly persons ; and the glory of god , and honour of our lord jesus christ , and that we may trample under our feet our own credit , our own opinion , if it stand not with the honour of christ , and the truth of god. letting passe the epistle , and leaving the various questions , and allowing the stating of the question , conceiving you mean it of baptizing by warrant of ordinary rule of scripture , without extraordinary revelation or direction . whereas you affirme , that the infants of believers are to be baptized with christs baptisme , by the lawfull minister according to ordinary rule . i deny it . that which you say for the practise of baptizing infants may be reduced , . to the testimonies of antiquity . . to the novelties and miscarriages of the opposers of it . . to the arguments produced for it . . to the answering objections against it . i shall by gods assistence examine each of these . first you affirm , that the christian church hath been in possession of it for the space of fifteen hundred years and upwards , as is manifest out of most of the records that we● have of antiquity both in the greek and latine churches . to this i answer , that if it were true , yet it is not so much as may be said for episcopacy , keeping of easter , the religious use of the crosse , &c. which i conceive you reject . . that the highest testimonies you produce come not so high . . those that be alleaged , being judiciously weighed , will rather make against the present doctrine and practise , then for it . . there are many evidences that do as strongly prove ( as proofes usually are taken in such matters ) quod ab initio non fuit sic , that from the beginning it was not so ; and therefore it is but an innovation . the first of these i presume you will acknowledge , that for antiquity not-apostolicall , there are plain testimonies of episcopacy , keeping of easter , the religious use of the crosse being in use , before any of the testimonies you , or any other can produce for baptizing of infants ; and therefore i will forbear mentioning proofes so obvious to schollars . the second and third thing i shall make good in the weighing of the testimonies you produce , and the fourth in the close . your testimonies are either of the greek or latine churches . of the greekes you alleage foure . the first is justine martyr , of whom you say , that he lived anno . which wants somewhat of . years ; and therefore you did somewhat ▪ overlash , in saying that it is manifest out of most of the records of the greeke and latine church ; the church hath been in possession of the priviledge of baptizing infants . years and upwards ; and then you say , in a treatise that goes under his name : by which it is manifest ▪ that you know that it was questioned whether it was his or no ; and i conceive you could not be ignorant , that it is not only questioned , but also proved by perkins in his preparative to the demonstration of the probleme , by rivet in his critieus sacer , by robert cooke of leeds ( if my memory faile me not , to which i am inforced to trust in many things , being spoiled of my bookes ) in his censure , and confessed by papists , to be none of justine martyrs , but to bee written a great while after his dayes ; for as much as it mentions not only irenaeus , but also origen and the manichees : now what doth this bastard treatise say ? you say question . justine martyr disputes the different condition of those children who die baptized , and of those children who die unbaptized . the question propounded is . if infants dying have neither praise nor blame by works , what is the difference in the resurrection of those that have been baptized by others , and have done nothing , and of those that have not been baptiz●d , and in like manner have done nothing . the answer is , this is the difference of the baptized from the not bapti●●d ; that the baptized obtaine good things ( meaning at the resurrection ) by baptisme , but the unbaptized obtain not good things . and the● are accounted worthy of the good things they have by their baptis●● , by the faith of those that bring them to baptisme . you may by th●● testimony see ( what ever age the book was made in ) what the reason of baptizing of infants was : not the supposed covenant of grace , made to believers and their seed , which you make the ground of baptizing of infants : but the opinion that the not baptized should not obtain good things at the resurrection ( meaning the kingdome of god , mentioned joh. . . ) but the baptized should ; and that by reason of the faith of the bringers , what ever the parents were , and therefore they baptized the children of unb●lievers , as well as believers if they were brought . your next greek author is irenaeus , who was indeed a greeke , and wrote in greek , but now only we have his works in latine , ( except some few fragments ) for which reason we are not so certain of his meaning , as we might be if we had his own words in the language in which he wrote . you say he lived in the same century , and it is acknowledged he lived in the same century with justine martyr but not with the author of the questions & answers ad orthodox●s , who ( as hath been said ) lived in some age after . irenaeus is by vsher placed at the yeare . by osiander at the yeare . so that though he were of that century , yet he flourished in the latter part of it , and so reacheth not to your . years & upwards . of him you say , that l. . c. . he saith , christus venit per seipsū omnes salvare , omnes inquā , qui per eum renascuntur in deū , infantes & parvulo● & pueros , &c. now it is well knowne , say the glossers upon that text , renascenti● nomine , dominica & apostolica phrasi baptismum intelligi : you might have added what follows . aperte confirmans apostolorum traditionem de baptismo infantium parvulorum adversus anabaptisticam impietatem . but i pray you , whose glosse was this ? was it any other then fevardentius ( if i mistake not ) of whom rivet . crit. sacr. lib. cap. . juniores tantum , qui in opera irenaei incident monitos volo , ut caveant ab illis editionibus , quas impudentissimus ille monarchus fevardentius , homo projecta audacia et nullius fidei , foede in multis corrupit , & annotationibus impii● et mendacibus conspu●cavit . and for the glosse its false : for no where doth our lord , or the apostles call baptisme , now birth , although our lord speake of being borne againe of water ioh. . . and paul of the washing of regeneration . tit. . . and for the words themselves without the glosse , all the strength lyes in this , that the word ( renascuntur ) is used for baptisme by the ancients , which yet possibly was not the word irenaeus used in his owne writing ; and how the latine translation alters the meaning of irenaeus , you may see somewhat in rivet . vossius thesibus theologic . de padebapt . thesi. . intimates , that the proper acception is of sanctification , and that the word may be so taken , yea and that it is not meant of baptisme , the words and the whole scope of irenaeus in that place shew . for the scope of irenaeus in that chapter is to refute the gnosticks , who sayd that christ did not exceede one and thirty yeeres of age ; against whom irenaeus alleageth , that christ lived in every age , of infancy , youth , old age , that by his age , & example , he might sanctifie every age , so that here irenaeus speakes not of being borne againe by baptisme : for it is said , who are borne againe by him , that is , by christ. not as if he had baptized infants , but because he was an infant , that by the example or vertue of his age , he might sanctifie infants , as the whole context will shew , which is this . magister ergo existens , magistri quoque habebat aetatem , non reprobans nec supergrediens hominem , neque solvens suam leg●m in se humani generis , sed omnem●tatem sanctificans per illam , quae ad ipsum erat , similitudinem . omnes enim venit per seipsum salvare , omnes inquam , qui per eum renascuntur in deum , infantes , & parvulos , & pueros , & juvenes & seniores . ideo per omnem venit aetatem , & infantibus infans factus sanctificans infantes , in parvuli● parvulu● , sanctificans hanc ipsam habentes aetatem , simul & exemplum illis pietatis effectus & justitiae & subjectionis . in iuvenibus iuvenis exemplum iuvenibus fiens , & sanctificans domino : sic et senior in senioribus , ut sit perfectus magister , non solum secundum expositionem veritatis , sed secundum aetatem , sanctificans simul & seniores exemplum ipsis quoque fiens deinde & usque ad mortem pervenit , ut sit primogenitus ex mortuis ipse primatum tenens in omnibus princeps vitae , prior omnium , et praecedens omnes . which he confirmes by the testimony of iohn the apostle , from whom he saith , those that conversed with him related , that christ lived about fifty yeares , which all sorts of writers doe reckon among irenaeus his blemishes , and thereby shew how little credit is to be given to the too much entertained apostolicall traditions . the next greeke author is origen , who you say lived in the beginning of the third century , perkins and vsher place him at the yeare . but for his works , as of old they were counted full of errours and dangerous to be reade , so as now they are , we can hardly tell in some of them what is origens , what not : for the originall being lost , we have only the latine translation , which being performed in many of his works , and particularly the homilies on leviticus , and the epistle to the romanes , by ruffinus , it appeares by his owne conf●ssion , that he added many things of his own , insomuch that erasmus in his censure of the homilies on leviticus saith , that a man cannot be certaine whether he reades ruffinus or origen ; and perkins puts among origens counterfeit works his comentary on the epistle to the romans , as being not faithfully translated by ruffinus : the like is the judgement of rivet and others , and i suppose did you reade the passages themselves you cite , and consider how they are brought in : and how plaine the expressions are against the pelagians : you would quickly conceive , that those passages were put in after the pelagien heresie was confuted by hierom and augustine , who often tells us that the fathers afore that controversie arose , did not speake plainly against the pelagiens : and of all others , origen is most taxed as pelagianizing . wherefore vossius in the place aforenamed , though he cite him for company , yet addes , sed de origene minus laborabimus quia quae citabamus , graece non extant . but what saith the supposed origen ? in one place ▪ that the church received this tradition of baptizing infants from the apostles : in another according to the observance of the church baptisme is granted to infants , you adde , ( as foreseeing that this passage would prove that then it was held but a tradition ) that then the greatest points of faith were ordinarily called traditions , received from the apostles , and you cite thes. . . to which i reply , true it is that they did call the greatest points of faith , though written , traditions apostolicall , as conceiving they might best learne what to hold in points of faith , from the bishops of those churches where the apostles preached , and therefore in prescriptions against heretickes , tertullian , irenaeus and others , direct persons to go to the churches where the apostles sate , specially the romane church which seemes to have beene the seed of appeals to rome , and the ground of the conceit which was had of the popes unerring chaire . but it is t●ue also they called apostolicall traditions any thing though unwri●ten , which was reported to have come from the apostles ; as the time of keeping easter , and many more , which was the fountaine of all corruptions in discipline and worship . and that in those places you cite , is meant an unwritten tradition , not only the not citing any scripture for baptizing of infants , but also the very phrases , pro hoc et ecclesia ab apostolis traditionem suscepit & secundum ecclesiae observantiam , are sufficient proofe to them who are acquainted with the ancients writings of those times . so that yet you have not proved that the baptisme of infants was time out of minde , that it had beene received in the church , or was delivered over to the church in origens time , and was of ancient use in the church afore his time . but these passages prove that in the time when the framer of those passages wrote , it was accounted but an apostolicall tradition , according to the observance of the church . like speeches to which are found in pseudo-dyonisius in the end of his hierachy , and augustin . lib. . de genesi ad literam . c. . and elsewhere , which argue that it was held as an ecclesiasticall tradition in those times . the fourth and last of the greeke church you name is gregory nazianzen , who is by perkins placed at the yeare . by vsher . much short of yeares and upwards , you say that orat. . in baptismum , he calls baptisme , signaculum vita cursum in euntibus , and commands children to be baptized , though afterwards he seemed to restraine it to the case of necessity . but doth he seeme onely to restraine it to the case of necessity ? the words are plaine , that he gives the reason why infants in danger of death should be baptized 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that they might not misse of the common grace , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he gives his opinion of others , that they should stay longer , that they might be instructed , and so their minds and bodyes might be sanctified , and these are all you bring of the greek church . by the examination of which you may perceive how well you have proved , that it is manifest out of most of the records that we have of antiquitie both in the greeke and latine church , that the christian church hath beene in possession of the priviledge of baptizing the infants of beleivers for the space of . yeares and upwards . whereas the highest is but a bastard treatise , and yet comes not so high , if it were genuine ; the next without a glosse , which agrees not with the text , speakes nothing to the purpose , the third is of very doubtfull credit , the fourth which was sundry hundreds of yeares after christ restraines it to the case of necessity . but it is wonder to me , that if it were so manifest as you speake , you should finde nothing in eusebius for it , nor in ignatius , nor in clemens alexandrinus , nor in athanasius , nor in epiphanius , that i mention not others : to me it is no small argument that baptisme of infants was not universally knowne in the greek church , no not in epiphanius his dayes , who is said to flourish in the yeare . because in his panarium , disputing against the hieracites , that denied infants inheriting the kingdome of heaven , because not striving . he brings the infants killed by herod , the words of the lord concerning ieremiah chap. . of his prophesie : christs blessing and receiving of infants , the children crying hosanna : but nothing at all of infants-baptisme , which had beene as proper to his purpose if he had beene acquainted with it . but besides the continuance of the questions to baptized persons , and answered by them , in many authors mentioned , this is to me , and it seemed so to hugo grotius , annot. in matth. . . no small evidence , that baptisme of infants many hundred yeares was not ordainary in the greeke church : because not onely constantine the great , though the sonne of helena a zealous christian as it s reported , was not baptized till aged , but also that gregory nazianzen who was the sonne of a christian bishop , and brought up long by him , was not baptized till he came to be a youth , as is related in his life . and chrysostome though ( as grotius saith ) according to the truer opinion , borne of christian parents , and educated by meletius a bishop , yet was he not baptized till past yeares of age . grotius addes , that the canon of the synod of neocaesarea held in the yeare . determines that a woman with childe might be baptized , because the baptisme reached not to the fruit of her wombe , because in the confession made in baptisme , each one 's own free choice is shewed . from which canon , balsamon and zonaras do inferre , that an infant cannot be baptized , because it hath not power to choose the confession of divine baptisme . and grotius adds fur●her , that many of the greeks in every age unto this day do keep the custome of diff●ring the baptisme of little ones , till they could themselves make a confession of their faith . from all which i inferre , that the anabaptists need not blush to say ( which you seem to make a part of their impudence ) that the ancients , especially the greek church , rejected the baptisme of infants for many hundred yeeres . i proceed to the writers of the latine church , you alledge for baptisme of infants . first cyprian , one of the ancientest writers amongst the latines : which is true ; he is placed by perkins at the yeare . by vsher , at the yeare . yet tertullian was before him , and counted his master : now in tertullians time , it appeares ( saith grotius in mat. . . ) there was nothing defined cencerning the age in which they were to be baptized , that were consecrated by their parents to christian discipline , because he disswades by so many reasons ( in his book of baptism c. . ) the baptizing of infants . and if he did allow it , it was only in case of necessity , as may appeare by his words in his book de anima , c. . but you say , cyprian handles it at large , in epist. . ad fidum . it is true , he doth say enough in that epistle for bapt●zing of infants ▪ and more then enough , except he had spoken to better purpose . the truth is , the very reading of that epistle , upon which hierom , and especially augustine rely for the proving of the baptizing of infants , is sufficient to discover how great darknesse there was then upon the spirits of those that were counted the greatest lights in the church . you say , upon this occasion , fidus denied not the baptisme of infants , but denied that they ought to be baptized before the eighth day . but you might have further observed , that fidus alleadged , considerandam esse legem circumcisionis antiquae , that he thought the law of ancient circumcision was to be considered . and , vestigium infantis in primis partus sui diebus constitut● mundum non esse dixistì : thou hast said that the footstep of an infant being in the first dayes of his birth , is not clean . whence it plainly appeares , that there was a relique of judaisme in him , and that he did not well understand the abrogation of the ceremoniall law : and the truth is , the contentions about easter , neere that age , do plainly shew , that iudaisme was not quite weeded out of the mindes of the chi●fe teachers among christians . you say cyprian assures him , that by the unanimous consent of bishops gathered together in a councell , baptisme was to be administred to infantes , as well as to growne men ; and not to be restrained to any time , which is true , but you adde , and proves it by such arguments as these . they are under originall sinne , they neede pardon , are capable of grace and mercy , god regards not age , &c. but the resolution of cyprian with his collegues is not so lightly to be passed over , sith the determination of this councell , as far as i can by search finde , is the very spring-head of infant-baptisme . to conceive it aright , it is to be considered , that you are mistaken , about the proofe of their opinion ; the things you mention , are not the proofe , but are produced in answer of objections . the proofe is but one , except you will make a proofe of that which is in the close of the epistle , which is , that whereas none is to be kept from baptisme , and the grace of god , much lesse new-borne infants , who in this respect doe deserve more of our ayde , and gods mercy , because in the beginning of their birth they presently crying and weeping doe nothing else but pray . the onely proofe is this , the mercy and grace of god is to be denyed to none , that are borne of man , for the lord saith in the gospell , that the sonne of man came not to destroy mens soules , but to save them , and therefore as much as in us lyes , if it may be , no soule is to be lost , and therefore all infants at all times to be baptized . whence we may observe : . that they thought baptizing , giving gods grace , and the denying it , denying gods grace : secondly , that they thought the soules to be lost that were not baptized . thirdly , that therefore not onely infants of beleivers , but all infants were to be baptized . whence tossanus in his synopsis , notes this for cyprians errour that he taught , infantes statim esse baptizandos ne pereant , quod eis misericordia non sit deneganda ep. . lib. . then follow the objections , which are three . first , that infants are not capable being so young : this he answers by saying god regards not age , which he proves by an allegoricall accomodation of elisha , his stretching himselfe upon the little childe , to the applying of gods grace to infants . the second objection is , but we shun to kisse infantes as uncleane in the first dayes of their birth : to this he answers , that to the cleane all things are cleane ; and we ought not to decline the embracing gods worke . the third objection , was the law of circumcision , to this he answers , that in circumcision the eighth day was a figure of the resurrection of christ : which is now accomplished , and we are to account now nothing common or uncleane : and therefore we are not to account this an impedinent to obtaine grace by baptisme . then he addes further , if any thing could hinder from obtaining of grace , greater sinnes should hinder men of yeares from it , now if greater sinnes hinder not men of yeares from it , but that they when they beleive obtaine forgivenes , grace , and baptisme , by how much rather is an infant not to be forbidden , who being newly borne , hath not sinned , except in that being borne carnally according to adam , he hath contracted the contagion of ancient death in his first nativity , who in this respect comes more easily to receive remission of sinnes , because not his owne sinnes , but anothers are forgiven him : so that whereas you say , that cyprian proves : that infants are to be baptized because they are under originall sinne , they neede pardon ; you may perceive that the argument is rather thus , they have lesser sinnes then others , they neede lesse pardon then men of growne yeares , and therefore there is lesse hinderance in them to come to gods grace , remission of sinnes and baptisme : thus have i considered that famous resolution of a councel of . bishops , which for the nakednes of it i should more willingly have covered , were it not that the truth hath so much suffered by the great esteeme that this absurd epistle hath had in many ages . you adde next to cyprian augustine , who flourished about the yeare . according to perkins , . according to vsher , and i follow you to consider him next ; for though ambrose and hierome are reckoned somewhat afore him about . or . yeares , yet they lived at the same time , and the authority of augustine was it which carryed the baptisme of infants in the following ages , almost without controule , as may appeare out of walafridus strabo placed by vsher , at the yeare . who in his booke de rebus ecclesiasticis cap. . having said ●hat in the first times , the grace of baptisme was wont to be given to them onely , who were come to that integrity of minde and body , that they could know and understand , what profit was to be gotten in baptisme , what is to be confessed , and beleived , what lastly is to be observed by them that are new borne in ch●ist ; confirmes it by augustines owne confession of himselfe continuing a catechumenus long afore baptized . but afterwards christians understanding originall sinne &c. ne perirent parvuli si sine remedio regenerationis gratiae defungerentur , statuerunt eos baptizari in remissionem peccatorum quod & s. augustinus in libro de baptismo parvulorum ostendit , & africana testantur concilia , & aliorum patrum documenta quamplurima . and then adds how god-fathers and god-mothers were invented and addes one superstitious and impious consequent on it in these words . non autem debet pater vel mater de fonte suam suscipere sobolem ut sit discretio inter spiritalem generationem & carnalem , quod si casu evenerit , non habebunt carnalis copulae deniceps adiuvicem consortium , qui in communui filio compaternitatis spiritale vinculum susceperant . to which i adde that petrus cluniacensis , placed by vsher , at the yeare . writing to three bishops of france against peter de bruis , who denyed baptisme of infants , sayes of him , that he did reject the authority of the latine doctors , being himselfe a latine , ignorant of greeke , and after having said recurrit ergo ad scripturas , therefore he runnes to the scriptures : he alleageth the examples in the new testament , of christs curing of persons at the request of others , to prove infants baptisme by and then adds , quid vos ad ista ? ecce non de augustino , sed de evangelio protuli , cui cum maxime vos credere dicatis aut aliorum fide alios tandem posse salvari concedite , aut de evangelio esse quae posui si potestis , negate . from these passages i gather , that as petrus cluniacensis urged for paedo-baptisme the authority of augustine and the latine doctors , so peter de bruis and henricus appealed to the scriptures , and the greeke church : now the reason of augustines authority was this , the pelagian heresie being generally condemned , and augustines workes being greatly esteemed , as being the hammer of the pelagians , the following refuters of pelagianisme , prosper , fulgentius &c. the councells that did condemne it as those of carthage , arles milevis &c. did rest altogether on augustines arguments , and often on his words , and augustine in time was accounted one of the foure doctors of the chu●ch , esteemed like the foure evangelists , so that his ●p●nion was the rule of the churches judgement , and the schooles determination , as to the great hurt of gods church luther and others have beene of late . now augustine did very much insist on this argument to prove originall sinne , because infants were baptized for remission of sinnes , and therefore in the councill of milevis he was adjudged accursed , that did deny it : but for my part i value augustines judgement iust at so much , as his proofes and reasons weigh , which how light they are you may conceive . first , in that whereas he makes it so unive●sall a tradition , his owne baptisme not till above thirty , though educated as a christian by his mother monica , the baptisme of his sonne adeodatus at . of his friend alipius , if there were no more , were enough to p●ove that this custome of baptizing infants , was not so received , as that the church thought necessary that all children of christians by profession should be baptized in their infancy . and though i conceive with grotius annot . in matt● . . . that baptisme of infants was much more frequented , and with greater opinion of necessity in africa , then in asia , or other parts of the world , for ( saith he ) in the councells you cannot finde ancienter mention of that custome , then the councell of carthage . yet i doe very much question whether they did in africa , even in augustines time baptize children , except in danger of death , or for the health of body ▪ or such like reason : i do not finde that they held that infants must be baptized out of such cases , for it is cleare out of sundry of augustines tracts , as particularly tract . in johan : that the order held of distinguishing the catechumeni and baptized , and the use of catechizing afore baptisme , still continued , yea and a great while after , insomuch that when petrus cluniacensis disputed against peter de bruis , he said only , that ther● had beene none but infants baptized for . yeares , or almost . yeares in gallia , spaine , germany , italy , and all europe , and it seemes he denyed not the baptizing of growne persons in asia still ; whence i collect , that even in the latine church , after augustines dayes , in sundry ages the baptizing of persons of growne age did continue as well as baptizing of infants , till the great darknes that over-spred the w●sterne churches , spoiled by barbar●us nations , destitute of learned men , and ●uled by ambitious and unlearn●d popes , when there were none to catechiz● , and therefore they baptized whole countries upon the baptisme of the king of that country , though both prince and people knew little or nothing of christianity , but were in respect of manners and knowledge pagans still , which hath beene the great cause of the upholding of papacie , and corrupting of christian churches , i mean this great corruption of baptizing , making christians , giving christendome ( as it is called ) afore ever persons were taught what christianity was , or if they were taught any thing , it was only the ceremonies and rites of the church , as they called them . . you may conceive how light augustine's ju●gement was , by considering the ground upon which augustine held , and urged the baptisme of infants so vehemently ; which was , as all know that read his works , the opinion he had , that without baptisme infants must be damned , by reason of originall sinne , which is not taken away but by baptisme , yea , though he wanted baptisme out of necessity ; urging those places , joh. . . rom. . . continually in his disputes against the pelagian● , particularly tom . . de natura & gratia , c. . and tom . . ep . . he saith , item quisquis dixerit , quod in christo vivificabuntur etiam parvuli , qui sine sacramenti ejus participatione de vita exeunt , hic profecto & contra apostolicam praedicationem venit , & totam condemnat ecclesiam . and in the close of the epistle , calls it , robustissimam & fundatissimam fidem , qua christi ecclesia , nec parvulos homines recentissime natos a damnatione credit , nisi per gratiam domini christi , quam in suis sacramentis commendavit , posse liberari . and this , perkins in his probleme , proves , was the opinion of ambrose , and many more : and hence , as aquinas , so bellarmine , proves baptisme of infants , fro● joh. . and this hath been still the principall ground . the ground that you go on , that the covenant of grace belongs to believers and their seed , i cannot find amongst the ancients . yea , as you may perceive out of perkins in the place alleadged , although ambrose , and augustine in his . book de baptismo contra donatistas , c. . yielded , that either martyrdome , or the desire of baptisme , might supply the defect of baptisme , and some of the school-men , biel , cajetan , gerson , do allow the desire and prayer of parents for children in the wombe , in stead of baptisme : yet we finde no remedy allowed by them , but actuall baptisme for children born into the world : so strictly did augustine and the ancients urge the necessity of baptisme for infants born . . you may consider , that augustine held a like necessity of infants receiving the lords supper , from the words , joh. . . as is plainly expressed by him , lib. . de peccat . merit . & remis . c. . and accordingly , as in cyprians time , the communion was given to infants , as appears by the story which he relates of himself , giving the communion to an infant , in his book de lapsis , mentioned by august . epist. . so it is confested by maldonat on joh. . that innocentius the first , bishop of rome , held it necessary for infants ; and that this opinion and practise continued about yeares in the church , though it be now rej●cted by the romane church in the councel of trent . . you may consider , that augustine held such a certainty of obtaining regeneration by baptisme , that not only he puts usually regeneration for baptisme , but also he makes no question of the regeneration of infants , though they that brought them , did not bring them with that faith , that they might be regenerated by spirituall grace to eternall life ; but because by baptisme they thought to procure health to their bodies , as is plain by his words , epist. . ad bonifacium . nec illud te moveat , quod quidam non ea fide ad baptismum percipiendum parvulos ferunt , ut gratia spiritali ad vitam regenerentur aeternam , sed quod eos putant hoc remedio temporalem retinere aut recipere sanitatem : non enim propterea illi non regenerantur , quia non ab illis hac intentione offeruntur ; celebrantur enim per eos necessaria ministeria . by which last words you may perceive how corrupt augustine was in this matter , so as to excuse , if not to justifie their fact , who made use of baptisme in so profane a manner , as to cure diseases by it : which is no marvaile , if it be be true which is related , of the approbation that was given of the baptisme used by athanasius in play amongst boyes . . you may consider , that in the same epistle , when bonifacius pressed augustine to shew how sureties could be excused from lying , who being asked of the childs faith , answered , he doth believe , ( for even in baptisme of infants they thought in all ages it necessary that a profession of faith go before ) he defends that act in this absurd manner : respondetur credere propter fid●i sacramentum , and thence is he called a believer because he hath the sacrament of faith . which as it is a ridiculous playing with words , in so serious a matter before god , so it is a senslesse answer , sith the interrogation was of the childs faith before it was baptized , and the answer was given before , and therefore it cannot be understood of believing by receiving the sacrament of faith , which came after . . it is apparent out of the same epistle , that infants were then admitted to baptisme , whether they were the children of believers , or not ; it was no matter with what intention they brought them , nor whose children were brought ; yea it was counted a work of charity to bring any children to baptisme , and in this case the faith of the whole church was counted a sufficient supplement of the defect of the parents or bringers faith : so that whereas the present defenders of infant-baptisme , pretend covenant-holinesse a priviledge of believers , it was no such matter in the time of the ancients , but they baptized any infants , even of infidels , upon this opinion , that baptisme did certainly give grace to them ; and if they dyed without baptism● , they did perish . and thus i grant that it is true , the epistle of cyprian is cited and approved by augustine : but neither is augustine to be approved for approving it , nor doth it advantage your tenet , that you have cited his citation of it . next to augustine you place hierom , and it is true that he cites and approves cyprians epistle , in the end of his third book of his dialogues against the pelagians ; and he cites , and approves , and commends augustine's books , de peccat . merito , & remissione , ad marcellinum , in which he maintains baptisme of infants , and infant-communion , as necessary to salvation , and the certainty of regeneration and salvation to infants that are baptized , and receive the lords supper . so that the same answer is to be given concerning hierom , which is to be given concerning augustine . the last you alleadge , is ambrose , who lived about the same time , though he be placed some yeares before augustine and hierom ; and it is confessed that he was of the same judgement , and many other of th● ancients of the same time , and in after-ages , but nothing comparable to those already named , and therefore adding no more weight to the cause . now these , you say , you relate not to prove the truth of the thing , but only the practise of it . it is well you added this , that you might disclaime the validity of these t●stimonies for proof ; for the truth is , they rather prove the thing to be an error , than a truth , which was held upon such erroneous ground as they taught and practised it , to wit , the necessity of baptisme to salvation , joh. . . the certainty of remission of originall sin by baptisme ; the denying of gods grace to none , and the perishing of those to whom baptisme was not given . whether you have any better p●oofs , i shall consider hereafter : in the mean time this i adde . . that concerning the practise , your testimonies prove not , that it was in practise , bu● in case of supposed n●cessity . . that there was still in use a constant course of baptizing , not only the converted from infidelity , but also the grown children of professed believers , when they were at full age . . that they did alike conceive a necess●ry of , and accordingly practise the giving of the lords supper to infants . . that they made no distinction between the infants of believers and unbelievers being brought to them . . that your ancientest testimonie for practise , according to any rule determined , is cyprian , neer yeeres after christ. . lastly , there are many evidences that do as strongly prove , as proofs are usually taken in such matters , that it was not so from the beginning : as particularly , . the continued propounding of the ordinary questions even to infants , concerning their faith , repentance , and obedience , afore they were baptized , which in the school-men was still held necessary , and therefore sureties thought necessary to answer for them , yea even in reformed churches , unto this day : which as it was conceived by strabo , and vives in his comment on aug. lib. . de civit . dei , c. . a cleare evidence ; so i conceive any reasonable man will think it to be a manifest proof , that at first none were baptized but such as understood the faith of christ. the examples before mentioned , of the baptizing gregory nazianzen , chrysostom , augustine , constantine the great , &c. being children of professors of christianity , is a manifest proof they did not then baptize infants ordinarily , but extraordinarily in case of necessity . . specially if we joyn hereto the disswasions of tertullian , and gregory nazianzen forementioned . . the plain testimony of the councel of neo-caesarea agai●st it , before mentioned . . the silence of the chiefe writers , eusebius , &c. concerning it . . the many passages in augustine , and others , referring it only to apostolicall tradition , and that usually proved by no higher testimony than cyprian , & that brought in upon erroneous grounds , is a strong evidence it came not from the apostles . to all which i may add the testimony of hugo grotius before recited , concerning the greek church ; the testimony of ludovicus vives , comment . in august . de civit . dei , l. . c. . affirming , that he heard , the old use continued in some cities of italy , of not baptizing , till the party baptized did desire it . which it seems bellarmine , an italian , when he mentions that speech of vives , did not deny . more testimonies and ●vidences might be brought out of sundry authors : but these are enough to me , and i think to any that search into antiquity , to prove , that the custome of baptizing infants was not from the beginning , and ther●fore is but an innovation : especially that your tenet , and practise accordingly , is a very late innovation , [ that baptisme is to be given to infants of believers only , because of supposed covenant-holinesse ] not elder then zuinglius , and so not much above one hundred yeares old , so far as i can find . antipaedobaptisme hath no ill influence on church , or common-wealth . part . ii. concerning the prejudices against antipaedobaptists , from their miscarriages . having examined the first part of that you produce for baptizing of infants , i proceede to the second , taken from the noveltie and miscarriages of the opposers of it . and here i wish you had remembred the order of the areopagites mentioned by smectymnuus that in pleading causes before them prefaces should be avoyded , as tending to create prejudice in the judges . for to what end serves this your narration of your adversaries , but to beget an odium , hatred or prejudice at least in your auditors ? which if it had come after other arguments might have been more excusable , but placed as it is , neither suites with serenity of minde fit for judging in you , or your auditors . unto which give me leave to adde , that the courses taken by too many , as namely by the author of the frontispice to doctor featlies booke , which is light and immodest , by mr. edwards in his prejudices ag●inst the persons of his opposites , as , that none that ever maintained antipaedobaptisme , lived and died with repute in the church of god : the historie of the anabaptists , the anabaptists catechisme , with the invectives against this as an heresie , everting the fundamentals , as leading into all heresie , over-throwing all government , used in sermons every where to make antipaedobaptists odious , and to forestall men with prejudice , though , for the present they serve like medusaes head , to astonish men , specially the more unlearned , yet are they not right courses , but artifices serving only to prevent impartiall discussing of things which is necessary that truth may appeare , and perhaps when truth sh●ll appeare will returne on the head of the authors of ●hem . but i resolve to follow your steps . you begin thus . and indeed although some in those times questioned as augustine grants in his sermons de verbis apostol . yet the first that ever made a head against it , or a division in the church about it , was baltazar pacommitanus in germany in luthers time , about the yeare . you say , in those times some questioned , as august . grants in his sermons de verbis apostol . , . but you doe not tell us who those some were , nor in which sermons , which might have been requisite for your reader . upon search i finde the . sermon de verbis , apostol . om . . intituled de baptismo parvulorum contra pelagianos , but it is plaine out of that sermon , and out of augustines bookes of heresies , ad quod vult deum , tom. . heres . . and else where , that the pelagians did grant the baptizing of infants , because they durst not oppose the custome of the church , which in those dayes was accounted sacred , only they shifted ●ff the proofe of originall sinne from it , by saying that they were baptized not for the remission of sinnes to eternall life , for they had none , but for the kingdome of heaven , which shift augustine doth well refute in that sermon , and also opposeth some others that taught , that the child not baptized might enter into the kingdome of heaven . from augustines time you make a great leape , and say , the first that ever made a head against , or a division in the church about it , was baltazar pacommitanus in germany in luthers time , about the yeare . but therein you are much deceived . for cassander in his testimonies of infants baptisme in the epistle to the duke of cleve , tells us that guitmund bishop of averse mentioneth the famous berengarius anno. . opposing not only the corporall presence of christ in the eucharist , but also the baptisme of little ones . and that a little after sprung in bernards time an heresie of an uncertaine originall and appellation , and he saith that they were called cathari or puritans , and from a country of france , albigenses , spread over france and lower germany , and the banke of the rhine ; of these , he saith , hireliquis erroribus quos a manichaeis et priscillianistis mutuati sunt , hoc insuper addiderunt , ut baptismum parvulorum inutilem esse dicerent , ut qui prodesse nemini queat qui non et ipse credere , et per seipsum baptismi sacramentum petere possit , quale nihil manichaeos , & priscillianistas docuisse legimus . and indeed bernard , who is placed by vsher , at the yeare . just a . yeares after berengarius , sermon . in cantica , mentions the heresie of some , that had no name , because their heresie was not from man , nor received they it by man , but they boasted themselves , to be the successors of the apostles , and called themselves apostolicos : now although he charge them with denying marriage , and abstaining from meates , yet you may smell out of his owne words , that this was but a calumny ; but take the character he sets downe of them and weigh it , and you would conceive he had spoken of protestants . irrident nos quia baptizamus infantes , quod oramus pro mortuis , quod sanctorum suffragia postulamus , and a little after , non credunt autem ignem purgatorium restare post mortem , sed statim animam solutam a corpore , vel ad requiem tranfire , vel ad damnationem , and a little after . jam vero qui ecclesiam non agnoscunt , non est mirum , si ordinibus ecclesiae detrahunt , si instituta non recipiunt , si sacramenta contemnunt , si mandatis non obediunt . the same bernard in epist. . writes to hildefonsus earle of s. gyles , to take away henricus once a monke , then an apostate , quod dies festos , sacramenta , basilicas , sacerdotes sustulerit , quod parvulis christianorum christi intercluditur vita , dum baptismi negatur gratia , nec saluti propinquare sinuntur , and it is well known that petrus cluniacensis who is placed by vsher at the yeare . hath written an epistle to three bishops of france against peter de bruis and henricus , as defending errors digested into . articles . first , that little ones may not be baptized . secondly , that temples or altars are not to be made , thirdly , that the crosse of christ is not to be adored or worshipped , but rather to be broken and trodden under foote . fourthly , that the masse is nothing , nor ought to be celebrated . fiftly , that the benefits of the living nothing profited the deceased , that we are not to chant to god. he saith that the heresie of the petrobrusians , was received in the cities of gallia narbonensis , and complaines , that the people were rebaptized , the churches profaned , the altars digged downe , the crosses fired , on the day it selfe of the lords passion , flesh was openly eaten , the priests scourged , monks imprisoned , and by terrours and torments compelled to marry wives . all this was done very neare . yeares before baltazar pacommitanus , or as others write him pacimontanus . but perhaps you thinke however , that baltazar was the first that opposed the baptisme of inf●nts in the . century , which possibly may be true , though herein you follow cochlaeus and bellarmine , who addes that erasmus himselfe had sowed some seedes of it also , but gerhard the lutheran in the th tome of his common places , where he handles this question , rather derives the originall from carolostadius , and alleageth melancthon , com. on coloss. and saith , that he is called the father of the anabaptists by erasmus alberus . now i doe not finde in melancthon that which gerhard saith of him , yet sleidan saith of him , that he praised their opinion , and osiander that he joyned himselfe unto them , and i finde that melancthon in his comment on cor. . . sayes of him that he indeavoured to promote the gospel , though in a wrong course . arnoldus meshovius hist : anabap : lib. . § . . sayes that the businesse of anabaptisme began at wittenberg , anno christi , . luther then lurking in the castle of wartpurg in thuringia , by nicolas pelargus , and that he had companions at first , carolostadius , philip melancthon and others , and that luther returning from his patmos as he called it , banished carolostadius and the rest , and only received philip melancthon into favour againe . now they that know what was luthers vehemency and pertinacy on the one side , and melancthons timerousnesse on the other side , may well conceive , ●hat as in the businesse of images in churches , and consubstantiation , so in this about infant-baptisme the temper of these two men much hindred the clearing of this truth , perhaps fearing that a further reformation then they had begun , would be an occasion of nullifying , all they had done . surely it hath beene the unhappy fate of the reformed churches , that they have so stucke to luther , and calvin , that they have scarce stepped one step further in reformation then they did , but stifly maintained onely the ground they had gotten . cassander in his epistle to he d. of cleve before mentioned reckons the error of anabaptisme to have bin revived abou● the yeare . by nicolas stork or pelargus & thomas munzer ; but it is not res tanti to search any further into this matter , nor is it of any weight to enquire much after this baltazar . he is stiled baltazar huebmer pacimontanus , dr. in waldshuot , in the epistle zuinglius writes to him , before his answer to his booke about bap●isme , & in the epistl● zuinglius wrote to gynoraeus , he relates how he came to zurich , and was there demanded by the emperor , who it seemes sought his life , there he made some recantation , but it appeares he was afterwards taken and burnt at vienna in austria anno , . for what cause i know not . zuinglius saith this of him in his epistle to gynoraeus . nos dexteritatem spectamus in homine , ac mediocritatis studium , in eo autem homine ( falli cupio ) nihil quam immoderatam rei gloriaeque sitim deprehendisse visus sum ipse mihi . and osiander at the yerae . saith only of him , he was hom● fanaticus et crassus anabaptista . but i leave him to his judge to whom he stands or falls , onely i marvaile i reade no worse , specially in osiander , said of one that is accounted a leader in so hated a sect . you goe on , since that time multitudes in germany have imbraced his opinion , who because they opposed paedobaptisme , were forced to reiterate their owne baptisme , and thence were called anabaptists . afore i proceed , because it goes so currant , that rebaptization is not only an errour , but also an heresie , let me beg of you one good argument to prove it unlawfull in se , or intrinsecally , i meane without respect to scandall , or the like cause by accident , for a man that hath beene baptized rightly , to be baptized againe : one baptisme eph. . is not to me all one as once baptizing , no more then one faith once beleiving , we are regenerated by baptisme , and a man is borne but once . but are we not borne againe by the word , and must that be but once preached ? is not sinne mortified , the church sanctified by baptisme , and are not these often ? and for example , if there were as good for paedobaptisme , as that act. . , . for rebaptizing , the controversie were at an end with me . but if heresie must be determined by the votes of men , smectymnuus may be judged an arian , and the opposers of pasche hereticks : this by the way , though not besides the matter . you goe on , and soone proved a dangerous and turbulent sect , not only working a world of mischeife about munster , and other parts of germany , but have with this opinion drunke in abundance of other dangerous heresies and blasphemies , and quickly grew into such divisions and subdivisions among themselves , that bullinger notes that they were growne to no lesse then . sects in his time which is indeed the common lot of all sectaries . to all which i only answer thus , that much of this is true i make no question , though perhaps vehemency of opposition , hath made matters more or worse then they were , as it is wont to be in such cases , and i finde that gualter in his apology for zuinglius , saith of them , veritatis studiosi videri vellent , and cassander speakes favourably of some of them . but it is no marvaile that when men grow into sects , such things happen , especially when the reformation of an abuse is denyed men by an orderly synodicall way , and the persons that seeke it , declaimed against , accused , and accursed , and persecuted as schismaticks and heretiques ; and unlearned and factious men , joyne with a discontented party for sinister ends , so that the men that hold an opinion have no regular ministery , nor orderly meetings to debate or conclude of things amongst themselves ; and to agree upon a confession of their doctrine , to be by all avouched . but have not the like , if not the same things happened in other matters ? did not the like troubles happen in q. elizabeths dayes in seeking to remove episcopacy & ceremonies ? did not some of them grow a dangerous and turbul●nt sect ? was not the practise of hacket and his companions like that of iohn a leyden at munster ? did not divisions and other miscarriages and persecutions , bring the non-conformists of england as low as the anabaptists ? did not whitgift long agoe compare the anabaptists principles with the nonconformists of england , and hooker in his preface to his bookes of ecclesiasticall policy , their proceedings , manners & pretences togethe● ? and yet episcopacy is now found an abuse and so may in time be paedo-baptisme . indeed these miscarriag●s were argumentative if they did arise from the nature of the doctrine taught : but when they come only from the weakenes , or rashnes , or malignity of the assertors , or from the violence of opposers , we must not jumble things togeth●r , but by sifting the matter to the bran , sever the nature of the d●ctrine from the quality and actions of the teachers , else we shall as soone loose truth as finde it : now whether the nature of the doctrine that denies paedobaptisme , inferre any such turbulent effects , i shall consider in examining that which followes . and because this opinion and divers others which depend upon it , begins unhappily to take place , and spread among our selves in this kingdome . you do not expresse what those opinions are which depend upon it , mr. richard vines in his sermon on eph. . . pag. . having sayd what heresie ever came abroade , without verbum domini in the mouth of it ? and then after the arians plea , he saith the anabaptists from matth. . . goe yee therfore and disciple all nations ; and when we shal be thriven to his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or full stature , he will undermine magistracy by that rom. . . avenge not your selves . but how knowes mr. vines this ? i do not take mr. vines for a prophet & to inferre this by reason , the anabaptist urgeth matth. . . against paedobaptisme , ergo , he will urge rom. . . against magistracy , is in my slender apprehension a baculo ad angulum . i doe not feare to averie , and doubt not but to be able to make it good , that the principle by which he proves paedobaptisme , from the reason & equity of the rule of circumcision , doth by just consequence undermine , i will not say all magistracy , but much of the magistracy and lawes of the kingdome of england , as they are at this day . perhaps he may say the anabaptists heretofore have opposed magistracy . i reply , have none of the adversaries of the anabaptists undermined magistracy ? since the actions of muncer and munster i finde not either in writing or action any opposition but the battenburgick after mentioned ( which what they were i know not ) made by the anabaptists against the magistrates or magistracy . i cannot but thinke it necessary to insert the words of cassander a papist in his epistle to the duke of gulicke and cleve . hujus quem dixi memnonis cui nunc hic theodoricus successit , sectatores fere sunt omnes , qui per haec belgicae , & inferioris germaniae loca huic anabaptisticae heresi affines deprehenduntur , in quibus magna ex parte pii cujusdam animi argumenta cernas , qui imperito quodam zelo incitati , errore potius , quam animi malitia a vero divinarum literarum sensu , et concordi totius ecclesiae consensu descrverunt . quod ex eo perspici potest , quod monasteriensibus , et hinc consequutis batenburgicis a iohanne batenburgo , post cladem monasteriensem excitatis furoribus , novam quandam restitutionem regni christi , quod in deletione impiorum per vim externa● positum sit meditantibus acerrime semper restiterunt , et in sola cruce regni christi instaurationem et propagationem consistere docuerunt , quo fit ut qui hujusmodi sunt , commiseratione potius et emendatione quam inse●tatione et perditione digni videantur . how unlike is mr. vines his speech to the lord m●jor & city of london , to these words of cassander a papist , to the d. of clev●●●●pist ●●pist . and for those in these dayes , that deny or question paedo-baptisme , as i know them not , or very few of them , so i cannot say what they do , or hold , as being not privy to their tenets or proceedings , onely unde●standing by one of your assembly , that there was a little book pu● forth intitled the compassionate samaritane , upon perusall i found that that author , who ever he were , accounts it a calumny to charge th● anabaptists with opposing magistracy . but concerning this , the confession of faith , lately put forth in the name of churches of them artic. , . will give best information . but if you meane not this but some other error depending on the opinion of antipaedobaptisme , when i meete with them in your sermon , i shall in their proper place , consider whether they do depend on it or no , and for the opinion it selfe , i say , if it be not truth , the spreading of it is unhappy , if it be truth , the more it spreads , the more happy it is for the kingdome . you say further . and so the worke of reformation without gods mercy likely to be much hindered by it . sir , you now touch upon a very tender point , in which it concerned you , and it in like mann●r concernes me , and all that have any love to iesus christ , or his people , to be very considerate in what we say . i have entred into covenant to endeavour a reformation as well as you , and though i have not had the happines , ( as indeed wanting ability ) to be imployed in that eminent manner you have beene in the promoting of it ( in which i rejoyce ) yet have i in my aff●ctions sincerely d●sired it , in my intentions truely aimed at it , in my prayers hea●tily sought it , in my studies constantly minded it , in my indeavours seriously prosecuted it , for the promoting of it greatly suffered , as having as deepe in interest in it as other men . now b●gging this postulatum , or demand , that paedobaptisme is a corruption of christs institution , which upon the reading of my answer , and the reasons of my doubts formerly mentioned , will appeare not to be a mere petitio principii begging that which is to be proved . i say this being granted , i humbly conceive that paedobaptisme is a mother-corruption , that hath in her wombe most of those abuses in discipline and manners , and some of those errors in doctrine that doe d●file the reformed churches ; and therefore that the reformation will be so far from being hindred by removing it , that indeed it is the only way to further reformation , to begin in a regular way , at the purging of that ordinance of iesus christ , to wit baptisme , without which , experience shewes how insufficient after-catechizing , excommunication , confirmation , vnio reformata , solemne covenant , separation , & the new church-covenant , invented or used to supply the want of it , are , to heale the great abuses about the admitting visible professors into the priviledge of the church , from whence spring a great part , if not all the abuses in discipline , receiving the lords supper , and manners of christian people . and therefore , i earnestly beseech in the bowels of iesus christ , both you , and all others , that ingage themselves for god , to take this matter into deepe consideration . i am sensible how inconsiderable a person i am , and how inconsiderable a number there be that are aff●cted with this motion , i do consider how much against the streame of the r●formed churches , such a reformation would be . yet when i consider how far fetched the reasons for paedobaptisme are , how cleare the institution of christ is against it , how happily truthes opposed with as much p●●j●dice as this , have beene in processe of time vindic●ted , of wha● moment the knowledge of this point is to every conscience , how exact a r●formation our solemne covenant binds us to endeavour ; i do not despaire but that this truth also may take place upon second thoughts , ●here it hath beene rejected at the first , nor doe i doubt bu● in time gods people will consider what an influence baptisme had of old into the comfort and obligation of conscien●es , and how lit●le it h●th now . and truely sir , though it may be but my weaknes , yet i suppose it can doe you no hurt to tell it ; i feare you want much of that blessing , which was hoped for by your assembly , in that you do waste so much time about inconsiderable things comparatively , and hastily passe over or exclude from examination this which deserves most to be examined , but rather seeke to stop the bringing of it to any tryall . but having told you thus much , i follow you in your sermon . you say , i shall god-willing handle this question more largely then i have done any other in this place , and the rather because of three other great mischeifes which go along with it . first i see that all that reject the baptizing of infants , do & must upon the same grounds reject the religious observation of the lords day , or the christian sabbath , viz. because there is not ( say they ) an expresse institution or command in the new testament . give me leave to take up the words of him in the poet , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , what a word hath gotten out of the hedge of your teeth ! they doe , they must . though i doubt not of your will , yet i see you want some skil in pleading for the lords day , that others have : the truth is that it is neither so , nor so , they neither doe , nor must reject upon the same ground the lords day . that they doe not i can speake for one ; and your owne words delivered after with more caution , verily i have hardly either knowne , or read , or heard , intimate that though few , yet you cannot say , but you have heard , or read or knowne of some , that have not with baptizing of infants rejected the lords day ; but you have , i presume , heard or read of whole , and those reformed churches , that have upon such a ground rejected the lords day as not of divine institution , who yet are zealous for paedobaptisme . nor must they , and to make that good , let us consider their ground as you mention it . their ground you say is , because there is not an expresse institution or command in the new testament : this then is their principle , that what hath not an expresse institution or command in the new testament is to be rejected . but give me leave to tell you , that you leave out two explications that are needefull to be taken in ; first , that when they say so , they meane it of positive instituted worship , consisting in outward rites , such as circumcision , baptisme and the lords supper are , which have nothing morall or naturall in them , but are in whole and in part ceremoniall . for that which is naturall or morall in worship , they allow an institution or command in the old testament as obligatory to christians , and such doe they conceive a sabbath to be , as being of the law of nature , that outward worship being due to god , dayes are due to god to that end , and therefore even in paradise , appointed from the creation ; and in all nations , in all ages observed : enough to prove so much to be of the law of nature , and therefore the fourth commandement justly put amongst the morals ; and if a seventh day indefinitely be commanded there , as some of your assembly have indeavourd to make good , i shall not gainsay : though in that point of the quota pars temporis which is moral , i do yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 suspend my judgement . now circumcision hath nothing moral in it , it is meerely positive , neither from the beginning , nor observed by all nations in all ages , nor in the decalogue , and therefore a sabbath may stand , though it fall . . the other explication is , that when they require expresse institution or command in the new testament , they doe not meane that in positive worship there must be a command totidem verbis , in so many words , in forme of a precep● , but they conceive that apostolicall example , which hath not a meere temporary reason , is enough to prove an institution from god , to which that practise doth relate . and in this , after some evidences in the scripture of the new testament , they ascribe much to the constant practise of the church in all ages . now then if it be considered , that when paul was at troas , acts. . . the disciples came together to breake bread , and paul preached upon the first day of the weeke , and paul , cor. . . . as he had appointed in the churches of galatia , so he appoints at corinth collections for the poore the first day of the week ; & revel . . . it hath the elogium or title of the lords day ; and it was so sacred among christians , that it was made the question of inquisitors of christianity , dominicum servasti ? hast thou kept the lords day ? to which was answered , christianus sum , intermittere non possum , i am a christian , i may not omit it : it is cleare evidence to me , that either christ or the apostles , having abrogated the old sabbath , col. . . subrogated the first day of the weeke instead of it . now if a moity of this could be brought for paedobaptisme , in the stead of circumcision of infants , i should subscribe to it with you . but paedobaptisme not consisting with the order of christ in the institution , being contrary to the usage of it by john the baptist , & the apostles , there being no foote-steps of it , till the erroneous conceit grew of giving gods grace by it , and the necessity of it to save an infant from perishing , some hundreds of yeares after christs incarnation ; i dare not assent to the practise of it upon a supposed analogy , equity or reason of the rule of circumcision , and imaginary confederation with the beleiving parent in the covenant of grace . for to me it is a dangerous principle upon which they go that so argue : to wit , that in meere positive things ( such as circumcision and baptism are ) we may frame an addition to gods worship from analogy or resemblance conceived by us betweene two ordinances , whereof one is quite taken away , without any institution gathered by precept or apostolicall example . for if we may doe it in one thing , why not in a nother ? where shall we stay ? they that read the popish expositors of their rituals , doe know that this very principle hath brought in surplice , purification of women , &c. that i mention not greater matters . i desire any learned man to set me downe a rule from gods word , how far i may go in my conceived parity of reason , equity or analogy , and where i must stay ; when it will be superstition and will worship , when not ; when my conscience may be satisfied , when no● ? that which christ and his apostles have taken from the jewes , and appointed to us , we receive as they have appointed : bu● if any other man , if a pope , or occumenicall councel take upon them to appoint to mens consciences any rite in whole or in part , upon his owne conceived reason from supposed analogy with the jewish ceremonies , it is an high presumption in such against christ , and against the apostles command to yeeld to it , col. . . though it hath a shew of wisedome , v. ▪ and the apostles example , gal. . . . binds us to oppose it , when it is likely to bring us into bondage . and for the other pillar upon which at this day paedobaptisme is built , it is to me very dangerous , viz. that the covenant of evangelicall grace is made to beleivers and their seede , that the children are confederates with the parents in the covenant of grace . which without such restrictions or explications as agree not with the common use of the words ( which in the plaine sense import this , that god in his covenant of grace by christ hath promised not only to justifie and save beleiving parents , but also their children ) is in my apprehension plainly against the apostles determination , rom. . , , . makes an addition to the gospell mentioned gal. . . and drawes with it many dangerous consequences , which i abhorre . you adde , now god hath so blessed the religious observation of the lords day in this kingdome above other churches and kingdomes , that such as indeavour to overthrow it , deserve justly to be abhorred by us . upon occasion of which passage i only desire to intimate to you , that from happy events it s not safe to conclude , that a thing pleaseth god. you know it is the way the monks and prelates use to inferre that their institution is of god , because their orders have yeelded so many pious confessors , martyrs and saints ; & it too much countenanceth the way of arguing for independency ( by which it hath prevailed ) in letters from abroad , and suggestions at home , still harping on this string , that it is the way of god , because they that are in that way thrive & grow more spirituall then others . and if this arguing be good , it prospers , therefore it pleaseth god ; then it will follow on the contrary , it prospers not , therefore it pleaseth not god : and if so , we might inferre infant baptisme is of men , not of god , sith if conscience and experience may speake , there are but few christians that have tasted the sweete & comfort of their baptisme , as mr. shepard , in his epistle before philips vind : of infant-bap . the other note is this , that when you say , that such as indeavour to overthrow the religious observation of the lords day , deserve justly to be abhorred by us , it must be taken cum grano salis , with cau●ion , of such as doe it against cleare light , with a malitious spirit : otherwise your words reach to forraigne reformed churches & their teachers , yea in a sort to your selfe , who may be said interpretatively to indeavour to overthrow it , while you build it on the same ground with paedobaptisme . but i proceede . you say , secondly the teachers of this opinion , where ever they prevaile , take their proselites wholy off from the ministery of the word and sacraments , and all other acts of christian communion both publique and private , from any but those that are of their owne opinion , condemning them all , as limbes of antichrist , worshippers and followers of the beast . this is indeed a wicked practise , justly to be abhorred , the making of sects upon difference of opinion , reviling , separating from their teachers and brethren otherwise faithfull , because there is not the same opinion in disputable points , or in cleare truths non-fundamentall , is a thing too frequent in all sorts of dogmatists , and yet so contrary to common charity , which teacheth us to beare all things , to the rules of heathens , who could say , non eadem sentire duos de rebus iisdem incolumi licuit semper amicitia , it hath bin alwayes allowed that friends should differ in opinion about the same things , & yet continue f●iends , much more against that neare concorporation of christians : that i looke upon it as one of the great plagues of christianity , you shal have me joyne with you in shewing my detestation of it . yet neverthelesse , first , it is to be considered , that this is not the evill of antipaedobaptisme ; you confesse some are otherwise minded , and therefore must be charged on the persons , not on the assertion it selfe , and about this what they hold , you may have now best satisfaction from the confession of faith in the name of seven churches of them , art. . and others following . secondly , it is fit when such things happen , that godly ministers should looke upon it as their affliction , & take occasion excutere semetipsos ; to search themselves whether they have not by their harsh usage of their brethren , unjust charging them , misreporting their tenents , stirring up hatred in magistrates & people against them , ●nstead of instructing them , unsatisfying handling of doubtfull qu●stions , and by other ways alienated them from them . and i make bold to let you understand , that among others you have beene one cause at my startling at this point of paedobaptisme , remembring a very moveing passage which is in your sermon preached and printed on chron. . . concerning the hedge that god hath set about the . commandement , that you admire that ever mortal man should dare in gods worship , to meddle any jot further then the lord himself● hath commanded . i come after you . thirdly , this opinion puts all th● infants of all believers into the self-same condition with the infants of turkes and indians . and so doth the opinion of cyprian with his . bishops , that would have gods grace denyed to none . and so do the words of the grave confutation of the brownists , put forth by mr. rathband , part. . pag. . children may be lawfully accounted within gods covenant , if any of their ancestors in any generations were faithfull . exod. . . but it may be you do not so . i pray you then tell me , wherein you make their condition different ? possibly if you open your selfe plainly , there will be no difference between us . i will deale freely with you herein . . concerning gods election , i am not certaine any more , concerning the election of a believers infant , then an unbelievers . i rest upon gods words , i will have mercy on whom i will have mercy , rom. . . . for the covenant or promise of grace , that is , righteousnesse and life in christ , though i acknowledge a peculiar promise to abrahams naturall posterity , mentioned rom. . yet i know not that god hath made such a covenant to any , much lesse to all the naturall seed of any believing gentile ; if you can shew me such a character , i sha●l count it a treasure : but i dare not forge such grants . . yet i grant that the present estate of a believers infants hath a more comfortable likelihood that they are in gods election , then the infants of turks and indians , both because they have their parents prayers , and the churches for them , they have some promises , though generall , indefinite , and cōditional ; & we find by experience , god doth very frequētly cōtinue his church in their posterity , though it often happen that the child●ē of godly parents prove very wicked , but this i dare not ground upon any promise of free grace , made to the child of a believer as such , for feare le●t i incurre blasphemy , by challenging a promise which god doth not keep ; nor upon any pretended law of friendship , lest that objection r●flect on me , is there unrighteousnesse with god ? rom. . . which the apostle thought best to answer by asserting to god the most absolute liberty , v. . . . that the condition in respect of future hopes of a believers infant is a thousand times better then of a turk or indian , because it is born in the bosome of the church , of godly parents , who by p●ayers , instruction , example , will undoubtedly educate them in the true faith of christ , whereby they are not only as the turks children , in potentia logica , in a logick possibility , or in potentia remota , in a remote possibility , but in potentia pr●quînqua , in a near possibility to be believers , and saved . and surely this is a great and certain priviledge enough to satisfie us , if we remember the distance between god and us : nor do i feare to be gored by any of the three horns of your syllogisme , of which one you say must unavoidably follow . the first is , that either all are damned who die in their infancy , being without the covenant of grace , having no part in christ. but this follows not ; there is no necessity from any thing said before of their condition , that all of them should be damned , or be without the covenant of grace , having no part in christ : god may choose them all , or some , take all , or some into the covenant of grace ( which is , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , that is , mine elect , rom. . . . ) into communion with christ ( who dyed for the elect , rom. . , . ) notwithstanding any thing i have said of their condition . the second is , or else all are saved , as having no originall sin , and consequently needing no saviour , which most of the anabaptists in the world do owne , and therewith bring in also all pelagianisme , universall grace , free-will , &c. this i imagine is the error you conceive depends upon anti-paedobaptisme . i finde mr. blake stands much upon this in his birth-right-priviledge , pag. . where he saith , the anabaptists in this present age , well see , that all that joyn in this tenent saile between those rocks , either to affirm , that infants die in their pollution , or perish in their birth-sin , or else to deny this originall pollution , or any birth-sin at all . but for my part i see no reason of this , unlesse it be granted that no infant can have sin forgiven , unlesse it b● baptized . may it not be said , that some , or all infants are saved , notwithstanding their birth-sin , by the grace of god electing them , putting them into christ , uniting them to him by his spirit , forgiving them their birth-sin through christs obedience , ●lthough they be not baptized ? as corrupt as the schoolmen were , they could say , gratia dei non alligatur sacramentis , the grace of god is not tyed to sacraments . if most of the anabaptists hold universall grace , and free-will , there may be as much said of most of the paedobaptists , taking in a great part of the papists , almost all the lutherans , and arminians , and if they denyed originall sin , it is their dangerous error , but it is not consequent on their denying paedobaptisme . but the late confession of faith made ●n the name of . churches of them in london , art. , , , , , , . will abundantly answer for them in this point of pelagianisme . the third is , or that although they be tainted with originall corruption , and so need a saviour , christ doth pro bene placito , save some of the infants of turks and indians dying in their infancy , as well as some of the infants of christians , and so carry salvation by christ out of the church beyond the covenant of grace , where god never made any promise . nor doth this follow : for it may be said , all that dye in their infancy are not damned , nor all saved because they have no birth-sin , nor some of the indians saved . for the some that may be saved , may be the infants of believers , to whom god may forgive their birth-sin , without baptisme . thus you may perceive , how the push of all the horns of your horned syllogisme may be avoyded . but you conceive it a great absurdity to say , that christ doth pro bene placito save some of the infants of indians : it is true , it is a bold saying , to say he doth save them , but ●is as bad to say that god may not save them pro bene placito , according to his good pleasure . he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy . bu● then salvation by christ is carried out of the church , where he hath made no promise : if you mean by the church , the invisible church of the elect , the church of the first-born that are written in heaven , of which protestant divines , as morton de ecclesia , and others against bellarmine understand that saying , extra ecclesiam non est salus , without the church is no salvation : then it follows no● , that if the infants of indians be saved , salvation is carryed without the church , for they may be of the invisible church of the elect , to whom belongs the promise made to abraham , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed . but if you mean it of the visible , though i disclaim zuinglius his opinion ( who was a stiffe assertor of paedobaptisme , and i think the founder of the new way of maintaining it , by the new addition to the covenant of grace ) that hercules , arist des , socrates , numa , and such like heathens are now in heaven ; yet i cannot say no persons without the communion of the visibl● church are saved : he that could call abraham in vr of chaldea , job in the land of vz , and rahab in jericho , may save some amongst turks and indians out of the visible church . you will not call rome a true visible church , nor will you , i think , say , that all are damned that are in rome . you adde , that god hath made a promise to be the god of believers and of their seed , we all know . if you know it , yet i professe my ignorance of such a promise ; i reade indeed of a promise made to abraham , that he would be his god , and the god of his seed , and i reade that they that are of the faith of abraham , are the children of abraham , gal. . . . rom. . , , , . but i am yet to seek for that promise you speake of , to be the god of believers and their seed . you say , but where the promise is to be found , that he will be th● god of the seed of such parents who live and die his enemies , and the●● seed not so much as called by the preaching of the gospel , i know not . nor do i. only i know this , i will have mercy on whom i will have mercy , and i will have compassion on whom i will have compassion , rom. . . which is the apostles answer in this very case . thus have i entred your out-works , i shall now try the strength of your walls , i mean the third part of your sermon . infant-baptisme cannot be deduced from holy scripture . part . iii. concerning the arguments from scripture for infant-baptism . you say , my first argument to ●his , the infants of believing parents are foederati , therefore they must be signati . they are within the covenant of grace belonging to christs body , kingdome , family , therefore are to partake of the seal of his covenant , or the distinguishing badge between them who are under the covenant of grace , and them who are not . the ordinary answer to this argument , is by denying that infants are under the covenant of grace , only some few deny the consequence , that although they were within the covenant , yet it follows not that they must be sealed , because say they , the women among the jews were under the covenant , yet received not circumcision , which was the seal of the covenant . they that deny the consequence of your argument , do it justly , for the consequence must be proved by this universall : all that are foederati , must be signati , all that are in the covenant of grace must be sealed , which is not true . if it were true , it must be so , either by reason of some necessary connexion between the termes , which is none ; for it is but a common accident to a man that hath a promise or a covenant made to him , that he should have a speciall sign , it may adesse , vel abesse a subjecto , it may be present , or absent from the subject : god made a speciall promise to joshuah , that he should bring israel into the land of canaan ; to phineas a covenant of an everlasting priesthood , without any speciall sign or seal distinct from the covenant ; or else it must be so by reason of gods will declared concerning the covenant of grace , but that is not true . the promise made to adam , which you confesse was the same in substance with the covenant of grace , had no speciall sign or seal annexed to it ; noah , abel were within the covenant of grace , yet no speciall sign appointed them , therefore it is not gods will that all that are foederati in the covenant , must be signati , sealed ; if they had been signati , though they were foederati , it had been will-worship , god not appointing it to them . but you will say , all that are foederati should be signati , since the solemn covenant with abraham . but neither is this certain , sith we finde no such thing concerning melchizedeck , and lot , that lived in abrahams time , nor concerning job , that it 's conceived lived after his time . you will say , but it is true of all the foederati in abrahams family : but neither is that true , for male children before the eighth day , and women , though federate , yet were not to be signed . so that you see it is so far from being universally true , that all that are foederati , must be signati ; that this is all which is true , all the male children of abrahams family if they were eight dayes old , must be signed with the sign of circumcision , which never will be able to prove the consequence of your enthym●me according to true logick . but you say this receives an easie answer , the women were circumcised in the males , else god could not have said , that the whole house of israel were circumcised in the flesh , else could not the whole nation of the jews be called the circumcision , in opp●sition to all the world besides , who were called the v●circumcision . 't is true , the answer you give is an easie answer , because easie to be answered , but it is not a sufficient answer , to tak● away the exception against that universall proposition which must prove the consequence of your enthymeme : the answer is , that women were circumcised in the males . you expresse it thus , pag. . where you repeat the same thing . this sign was actually applyed only to the males , yet the females were virtually circumcised in them : so this is your meaning . the women were not circumcised at all , yet that the males were circumcised , it was all one as if they had been circumcised in their persons . now then let us scan this answer : the conclusion to be proved was , that infants were to be sealed actually , not virtually . for if a virtuall sealing , or baptizing were all that you would prove , we might grant it ; we may say infants are virtually baptized in their parents , and yet it may be unlawfull to baptize them actually ; as it would have been unlawfull to have circumcised women actually , notwithstanding their virtuall circumcision . for it had been a will-worship , there being no command to do it . and indeed , to speak exactly , women were not circumcised virtually in the males ; for he is said virtually to have a thing by another , as by a proxie , or attorny , that might receive it by himselfe , yet quoad effectum juris , according to the effect of law , anothers receiving is as if he had received it : but so the males did not receive circumcision for the females , for the females might not be circumcised in their own persons , it had been their sin , if they had recieved it , god not appointing it : as it had been a sin for a childe to be circumcised afore or after the eighth day , in them that altered or swerved from the appointment of god : now then this being the conclusion to be proved , that infants of believing parents are to be actually signed or sealed , the proposition must be meant of the same signing or sealing , and the syllogisme thus framed . all that are foederati , must be actually signati . all the infants of believers are foederati , ergo , all the infants of believers must be actually signati : if you do not thus frame your syllogisme , but put in the pr●position virtually signed , and in your conclusion actually signed , your syllogisme hath four termes , and so is naught . if you do not put actually signed in the conclusion , you conclude not that which you should prove . now this also occasions me to note another fault in your argument , to wit , your concluding that which was not the question , which was not of any sign indefinitely , but of baptisme . you cannot say it is all one , for there are other signes of the covenant besides baptisme , as circumcision of old , so the lords supper now . if then i should grant the conclusion , that infants of believers are to be signati , yet you would say they are not to be pa●takers of the lords supper , because it is not appointed for them . so in like manner if it were granted you , that infants of believers are to be signed , yet it follows not that they are to be baptized unlesse you can prove it is appointed to them ; and the truth is , if it were granted , that children were foederati , yet it were a high presumption in us to say , therefore they must be signati , without gods declaration of his minde , and if it were granted they must be signati , it were in like manner a high presumption in us to say , therefore they must be baptized , without gods declaration of his minde concerning that ordinance . though it may be good to a●gue thus , it is gods minde , therefore it is to be done ; yet it is a great pride of spirit for us to argue , this should be , therefore god hath appointed it . as for the reasons you bring to prove that women were virtually circumcised in the males , they prove it not , for when it is said the whole house of israel were circumcised in the flesh , the sense is not , every person is either actually , or virtually circumcised , but all the house of israel is put for a great part , or the greater , or the most eminent , as it is frequently elswhere , sam. . . act. . . act. . . as the whole church is said to come together , when the most of them come together . and in the like manner the people of the jews may be called the circumcision , from the greater or more famous part , though the women be neither actually nor virtually circumcised . as a field of wheat may be called from the greater or most eminent part ; as a church of believers , from the greater or most eminent part , though the rest be neither actually nor virtually believers . and for your other reason , pag. . it was gods expresse order , exod. . . no uncircumcised person might eat of the passeover , which we are sure women did , as well as men , therefore they were virtually circumcised ; neither is this cogent . for , the proposition is thus to be limited , pro subjecta materia , according to the subject matter . no uncircumcised person might eat thereof , that ought to be circumcised : now women were not appointed to be circumcised at all , therefore they need not either actually to be circumcised , or to have any circumcised for them , or in their stead , which you mean ( i think ) by virtuall circumcision . now i have dwelt so long on your consequence , because i still stick at this , that no reason of ours in positive worship , can acquit an action that is performed , from will-worship . nothing but gods will , manifest in his institution , gathered by some command or example now in force , can do it . neverthelesse , because i conceive the antecedent of your enthymem● is not true , though your argument be overthrown by shewing the inv●lidity of your consequ●nce , i shal proceed to examine your conclusions , by which you endeavor to make good both your antecedē● , & whole argument . your first conclusion is this , that the covenant of grace for substance , hath always bin one & the same to jews and gentiles . this conclusion i grant : but on sundry passages in the p●oofe of it , i think it necessary to make these animadversions . . you carry the narration of the covenant made with abraham , gen. . as if it did only contain the covenant of grace in christ , whereas it is apparent ou● of the text , that the covenant was a mixt covenant , consisting of temporall benefits , to wit , the multiplying of his seed , v. . the poss●ssion of canaan , v. . the birth of isaac , v. . and the spirituall blessings , v. . yea , cameron th●sibus de triplici foedere dei , thesi . saith , that circumcision did primarily separate abrahams seed from other nations , sealed the earthly promise , it signified sanctification secondarily . and indeed this is so plainly delivered in the scripture , that the psalmist cals the promise of canaa● , the covenant made with abraham , ps. . , , , . he hath remembred his covenant for ever , the word which he commanded to a thousand generations , which covenant he made with abraham , and his oath unto isaac , and confirmed the same to jacob for a law , and to israel for an everlasting covenant ; saying , unto thee will i give the land of canaan , the lot of your inheritance . if you should say that these promises were types of spiritu●ll and heavenly things , the reply is , that though it be true , yet the things promised were but carnall and earthly , as the sacrifices were but carnall things , though shadowes of spirituall . . when you say thus : " the manner of administration of this covenant , was at first by types and shadowes , and sacrifices , &c. it had been convenient to have named circumcision , that it might not be conceived to belong to the substance of the covenant . but of this there may be more occasion to speak at pag. . of your sermon . . whereas , pag. . you place among the third sort of abrahams seed , " proselytes , that were selfe-justitiaries , carnall and formall professors : it behoved you to shew , where in scripture they are called abrahams seed , which i think you cannot . yea , the truth is , you herein joyn with arminius , who in his analysis of the . to the romans , makes this as the ground of his wresting that scripture , that there is a seed of abraham mentioned , romans . , . and galat. . & . cap. qui per opera legis justitiam & salutem consequuntur , who follow after righteousnesse and salvation by the works of the law. to whom baine on eph. . . p. . answers . beside , though the sons of the flesh may signifie such , who carnally , not spiritually conceive of the law ; yet the seed of abraham without any adjoyned , is never so taken . but it is yet stranger to me , that which mr. blake hath , pag. . where he saith , that there yet remaines in the bosome of the church , a distinction of the seed of abraham , borne after the flesh , and after the spirit . and that now by vertue of being born after the flesh , some have a church-interest . and applies that of gal. . even so it is now , to children born of believing parents after the flesh ▪ as having there by title to church-interest . which passages are very grosse , though he makes this the medium of his fourth argument . for , first , whereas the apostle , by being born after the flesh , means not infants born of believing parents , but those that are under the covenant of mount sinai , that is , who sought righteousnesse by the law , and not by faith : mr. blake means , by being born after the flesh , birth by naturall generation of infants born of christian parents . . whereas he saith , that such are in the bosome of the church ; the apostle saith , they persecute the church , and are cast out . . whereas ●e makes such abrahams seed , he therein joyns with arminius , against the tru●h , and against the apostle : for though the apostle makes ismael to be the son of abraham , and speaks of him as born after the flesh , whom he typically makes to represent legall justitiaries ; yet doth he not call abrahams seed simply such justitiaries . . whereas the covenant of grace is made the reason of baptizing infants , by alle●ging this place for baptizing of infants ; to be born of hagar , that is , to be in the covenant of works , should give a child interest into the church of christ. for my part , i can see no other consequence than this , of that cloudy argument . the rest of your explication of the first conclusion , i let passe without any further animadversions , as being unwilling sectare minutias , to insist on small things , or to stand upon matters of expression , where i think you mean right , and your words are likely to be so taken . your second conclusion is this . ever-since god gathered a distinct number out of the world , to be his kingdom , city , household , in opposition to the rest of the world , which is the kingdom , city , and houshold of sathan ; he would have the infants of all who are taken into covenant with him , to be accounted his , to belong to him , to his church and family , and not to the devils . this conclusion you expresse so ambiguously , that it is a cothurnus , a buskin that may be put on either legge , right or left , which should not have been in the main proposition , upon which the whole frame of your argument hangs . you say , the infants of all who are taken into covenant with god , are to be accounted his ; but you tell us not in what sense this is to be understood . for whereas persons may be said to be accounted his , either before god , or in facie ecclesiae visibilis , in the face of the visible church ; . before god , either in respect of his election from eternity , or his promise of grace in christ , congruous to it ; or of their present estate of inbeing in christ , or the future estate they shall have . . in facie ecclesiae visibilis , persons may be said to be accounted god's , either as born among his people , and so potentially members of the church , as being in a way to be in time actuall members of the church of christ , or who already enquire after god , and professe christ , though they do not well understand the doctrine of christian religion , such as the catechumeni of old were : or they are to be accounted his , in respect of actuall participation of baptisme , and the lords supper . . the accounting of them to be god's , may be either an act of science , or faith , or opinion ; and that grounded on a rule of charity , of prudence , or probable hope for the future . you do not declare distinctly in which of these senses or respects , the infants of all who are taken into covenant with god , are to be accounted his ; so that i am almost at a stand , what to deny , or grant . it cannot be denied , but god would have the infants of believers in some sort to be accounted his , to belong to him , his church and family , and not to the devils , ( which expression i fear you use in this and other places , ad faciendum populum , to please the peopl● . ) it is true , in facie ecclesiae visibilis , the infants of believers are to be accounted gods , to belong to his family and church , and not to the devils , as being in a neer possibility of being members of the church of god , by an act of opinion grounded on probable hopes for the future : but to make them actually members of the visible church , is to overthrow the definitions of the visible church , that protestant writers give , particularly the church of england , art. . who make the visible church a number of chr●stians by profession : to make a member of the visible church , ●o whom the note of a member of the visible church doth not agree , to make them visible members that are only passive , and do nothing , by which they may be denominated visible christians . yea , it will follow , that there may be a visible church , which consists only of infants of believers ; for a number of visible members , makes a visible church . it is also true , that we are not to account infants of believers to belong to god , before god , in respect of election from eternity , or promise of grace in christ , or present estate of in being in christ , or future estate by any act of science or of faith , without a particular revelation : for there is no generall declaration of god , that the infants of present believers indefinitely all , or some , either are elected to life , or are in the covenant of grace in christ , either in respect of present in being , or future estate . mr. cotton , [ the covenant of gods free-grace , p. . ] fifthly , it is ordered in regard of the persons to whom it is given , gal. . . it was given to christ , and in christ to every godly man , gen. . . and in every godly man to his seed ; god will have some of the seed of every godly man to stand before him for ever . against this passage i except , that when he saith , that the covenant of grace is given in every godly man to his seed ; he expr●sseth himself in an unusuall phrase , so obscurely , that his meaning is not easily conceived . for when he saith , it is given in every godly man ; if he mean it as he said in the words next before , in christ to every godly man , that every godly man should be to his seed , as christ to eve●y godly man ; this were to make every godly man a mediator to his seed , as christ is to eve●y godly man , which would be blasphemy . if he mean that every godly man is a root of the covenant , as abraham , it is most false , sith this is proper to abraham●lone ●lone , to be the father of the faithfull , rom. . . and the root that beares the branches , whether naturall , or ingrafted , rom. . , &c. and when he saith , it is given to his seed , he speaks indefinitely , which may be understood universally to all his seed , which is most manifestly false ; or else particularly , as the words following seem to import : but neither is this true , as shall be presently shewed . nor doth he tell us whether the covenant of grace be given to the godly mans seed , absolu●ely as his seed ; which if he affi●m , then he must affirm the covenant of grace is given to all the seed of ev●ry godly man : for , quatenus ipsum includes de omni , that which is said of any thing , as such , agrees to all that are such . or whether it be given conditionally . now it is true , that some promises do s●pp●se a condi●ion , as justification presupposeth believing : and if this be the meaning , the covenant of grace is given to every godly man , and in every godly man to his seed , if they do believe , then it is no more then the covenant of grace is given to every godly man , and then it is but trifling to adde , and in every godly man to his seed , sith nothing more is expressed , but what was said before , nor any thing convayed from the godly man to his seed ; some promises have no condition , as the promise of writing gods laws in our hearts , for if any condition be put , we shall fall into pelagianisme , that grace is given according to our merits . . that which he saith , he saith without any proofe at all , yea , contrary to the expresse words of the apostle , rom. . , l , . rom. . , ▪ . gal. . , , . who limiteth this promise , gen. . . to the seed of abraham , and the seed of abraham he explains to be the elect , and believers only , whether of jews or gentiles , and those of the jews that are in that covenant , not to be in that covenant , because abrahams naturall seed ( though god have more regard in his election and covenant of grace to abrahams naturall seed , then to any other godly mans naturall seed that hath been since ) but as his seed by calling . and for that which he saith , god will have some of the seed of every godly man to stand before him for ever , meaning this , as i conceive , of election and covenant of grace , or some state consequent upon these , it is but a bold dictate without proofe , imposing on gods counsell and covenant , especially sith god hath declared so expresly after the covenant , gen. . . that he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy . exod. . . whence the apostle infers , rom. . . an unlimited freedome notw●thstanding his covenant to abraham , to shew mercy on whom he will , any other being passed by : and therefore that promise w●s made good to abraham in the calling of the gentiles , rom. . . rom. , . yea , john baptist saith , that god could raise up children to abraham out of stones , mat. . . and for the thing it selfe , it is not true , that god will have some of the seed of every godly man to stand before him for ever . for millions of godly persons die childlesse , as abel , &c. millions that have children , yet their posterity are rooted up . were there not other godly persons from seth to noah , besides th●se mentioned in the genealogy gen. . yet it is certain that none of their seed stood before god at the time of the flood but noah , and some of his . is it not more likely that none of elies . children , or samuels stood before god in mr. cottons sense ? besides , if that which mr. cotton saith were true , how is it that the candlestick is removed quite from some people , and the naturall branches broken off , and the branches besides nature , even of the wilde olive , graffed into the true olive ? then , suppose a godly man have but one childe , that childe must infalliby stand before god. it is said indeed jer. . . and mr. cotton seems to allude to it , jonadab the son of rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever . but this standing before god is not meant of election to eternall life , and the covenant of grace , but of preservation in the destruction of jerusalem , and being after the captivity of babylon scribes , as junius annot . in jerem. . . gathers from chron. . . and for ever is in many places meant of a temporall duration for some ages . this digression will not be thought unnec●ssary by those that know how apt many are to swallow down such mens dictates without examination . but i proceed . nor are we to account infants of believers by an act of opinion according to a rule of prudence , by which the sacraments are to be administred , to belong to god in facie eccl●siae visibilis , in respect of outward profession , as the catechumeni , or participation of baptisme and the lords supper , as compleat christians . and as for being accounted by an act of opinion according to a rule of charity to belong to god , it hath no place in this matter . for judging of mens present estate by a rule of charity , is when men judge of others the best , that their words and works may be interpreted to signifie , according to that of the apostle , cor. . . charity believes all things : but infants do not shew any thing by words or works that may signifie their thoughts , and therefore in respect of them , whether they be good or bad , we can have no judgement , but must only suspend our act of judging them . but if by judgement of chariry be meant , as some expresse it , conceiving a thing to be so , because we know nothing to the contrary , then are we to conceive all infants to belong to god , yea almost all men in the world by the judgement of charity , because for ought we know to the contrary , all may be elected . wherefore i must either here stop , or else gather your meaning by your expressions in other parts of your sermon , and the expressions of those with whom i conceive you concurre in opinion ; and therefore if i should not exactly light on your meaning , you are to thank your selfe , but not to blame me . this is then that which i conceive you meane . that in the promise which god made to abraham , that he would be his god , and the god of his seed , as this promise comprehends evangelicall blessings , the infants of believers are comprehended , and therefore they are foederati , taken into covenant with their parents . and yet i am at a stand , whether , when you say they are taken into covenant with their parents , and that the promise , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , belongs to them in respect of evangelicall blessings , you mean it in respect of saving graces , or the priviledge of outward ordinances , though the latter is no more true then the former , yet it is lesse dangerous , and sometimes your expressions incline me to think you mean no more , especially that which you say pag. . secondly , all true believers are abrahams seed , gal. . . these only are made partakers of the spirituall part of the covenant , neverthelesse , because the most of your expressions carry it thus , that you conceive that god hath promised according to the covenant with abraham , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , to be the god of the naturall seed of believers , in respect of the saving benefits of the covenant of grace in christ , and your proofes tend that way . i shall oppose that assertion . but that i may not be thought to wrong you , or cum larvis luctari , to fight with a vizour , the reasons why i conceive you mean , or at least your readers are likely to take your meaning so , are these , you say pa. . my first argument is , they are within the covenant of grace belonging to christs body , kingdome , family , therefore are to partake of the seal of his covenant , or the distinguishing badge between them who are under the covenant of grace , and them who are not . pag. . you expresse your second conclusion thus . god will have the infants of such as enter into covenant with him , to be accounted his , as well as their parents : you set downe the substance of the covenant of grace . pag. . to consist in those benefits , and then you often say , the children are in the covenant of grace with their believing parents : and pag. . you reject the asserting to the infants of believers priviledges peculiar to some , and assert the priviledges belonging to the covenant of grace , which all that are in covenant may claime , which you say , god made to abraham , and all his seed . besides , your texts you produce tend to prove that , as acts . . &c. and you say , pag. . they shall be made free of gods city , according to abrahams copy , i will bee thy god , and the god of thy seed , which in respect of us gentiles , can have no other meaning , then in respect of justification , sanctification , and salvation , & p. . speaking of zacheus , you say , let him professe the faith of christ , and the covenant of salvation comes to his house , for now he is made a son of abraham , that is , abrahams promise now reacheth him . and pag. . the proving of the two first conclusions gains the whole cause , if the covenant b● the same , and children belong to it , then they are to be owned as cov●nanters . pag. . the whole covenant of grace , containing all the promises , whereof this is one , viz. that god will be the god of believers , and of their seed ; that the seed of believers are taken into covenant with their parents . this is a part of the gospel preached unto abraham , and the apostles were to baptize them , that is , to administer baptisme as a seal of the covenant , to all those who received the covenant . and master vines in his sermon , pag. . cals them confederates with their believing parents , and mr. blake pag. . god promis●s to be a god in covenant to his and their seed , which people in covenant have also a promise from him of the spirit . nor do i doubt but that your meaning is agreeable to the directory , which directs the minister at baptisme to teach that the promise is made to believers , and their seed , which promi●e , what it is , appears by the words following make this baptisme to the infant a seal of adoption , remission of sins , regeneration , and eternall life , and of all other promises of tht covenant of grace . and the truth is , although in some passages , ( especially mr. blake ) you speak more warily , as if you would avow onl● a covenant for outward priviledges , as when mr. blake saith pag. . this birth-right intitles only to outward priviledges , yet in applying thos● texts , g●n . . . act. . . mat. . . and others , you are inforced to expresse your selves , as if you meant the covenant whereby salvation is promised by christ , as knowing that those texts you produce , do otherwise speak nothing to the purpose , bring pl●inly meant of saving gr●c●s ; and the covenant now of the gospel is not of outward priviledges , as the mixt covenant made with abraham wa● , and therefore if there be not a promise of saving graces to infants , they are not now under an evangelicall covenant of free grace , and that baptism seals only the promise of saving grace , remission of sins , &c. and therefore if there be not a promise of saving grace to infants in vain are they baptized , the seal is put to a blank , as some use to speak : and if that there be no covenant of saving grace , to no end is so much weight laid on this for the comfort of parents , and such an odium cast on anti-paedobaptists for denying it , and therefore i see not but your assertion , if you do not revoke your plea for paedobaptisme , must be conceived thus : that god hath made a covenant or promise of saving grace in christ , not only to believers , but also to their seed , whom you baptize for this reason . the author of the little book intituled infants baptizing proved lawfull by scripture , pag. , , . int●rpr●ts the covenant , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , thus , i will be the god of every believer , and the god of every believers seed in respect of outward church-priviledges , to be members of the visible church , partakers of baptisme , &c. to the naturall seed , in respect of inward and meerly spirituall , to none but true saints , in whom the new creature is formed . but i say againe [ abraham ] or [ thee ] in that covenant is put only for abraham , and not for ev●ry believer . for sith the apostle plainly interprets believers to be abrahams seed , rom. . , . gal. . . to say abraham is put for any believer , makes the speech to have an inept tautology , i will be the god of abraham , that is , of every believer , according to that authors sense ; and i will be the god of thy seed , that is , of every believer , according to the apostles sense . and that in that covenant should be a promise to us believing gentiles , that to our seed should be conferred visible church-priviledges , to be members of the visible church , partakers of baptisme , &c. is but a dream , the scripture no where explaining it so , and being so understood , were not true , there being many of the seed of believers , that neither de facto , in event , nor de jure , of right , have those visible church privil●dges , to be members of the visible church , partakers of bap●isme , &c. and if there were such a promise , god could not take away the candlestick from the posterity of believers , which he threatens , rev. . . george philips , vind . of infant bapt . p. . cals the covenant , an offer to become their god , and all along supposeth infants under the covenant , because grace was offered in circumcision ; and they sealed , because it was off●red . but the covenant is not an offer , but a promise ; nor is a man under the covenant of grace , or in the covenant of grace , because an offer is made , for then refusers might be said to be under the covenant , but because god hath promised , or performed to them . and if infants are to be bap●ized ( which is his ground ) because the covenant is offered to them in baptisme , then in effect , it is to argue , they are to be baptiz●d , because they are to be baptized , which i● nugatory . i h●ve discussed this matter more fully , that i may shew you how doubtfull your speeches are , and give you the reason , why i set down this as your conclusion to be denyed by me . that the covenant of saving grace in christ , expressed gen. . . in th●se words [ i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed ] is made to believers and their naturall seed . now i will shew you the reason why i take this to be an error , and that very dangerous . my first reason is taken from the apostle , rom. . &c. in which place this very text that is now the apple of our contention , was brought into question ; beza thus expresseth the question . qui fieri possit ut rejectus sit israel , quin simul ●onstituendum videatur irritum esse pactum dei cum abrahamo , & ejus semine sancitum . i deny not , but there was also some other promise included in that objection , to wit , some promise made to israel , or the house of israel , probably that jer. . . . for so the words ver . . they are not all israel which are of israel , do intimate . but without question the promise made to abraham , gen. . . was one which was included in that objection . beza , twisse , ames , and others , answering arminius , call it the covenant of god with abraham , which was that gen. . . and the very phrase of abrahams seed , in isaac shall thy seed be called , ver . . the children of the promise are counted for the seed , ver . . sarah shall have a son , ver . . do evidently shew , that the promise objected to prove , that if the jews were rejected from being gods people , then god failed in making good his word , was , that promise to abraham , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed . whereto i may adde , that the answerers of arminius , and the cited remonstrants , to wit , baine and ames do say , it was the word of promise , not of the law , as arminius conceived , for the word of promise saith ames , animadv . in remonstran . script . synod . de praedest . cap. . sect. . is distinguished and opposed to the words of the law , gal. . , . now the word of the promise there , is to abraham and his seed , ver . . and this is there called by him verbum foederis , the word of the covenant . now let us consider how the apostle answers it . he denies that gods word made to abraham did fall , though the jews were rejected : because that promise , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , as it cōprehended saving grace , was never meant by god of all abrahams posterity , or of any barely , as they were descended from abraham by natural generation , but of the elect , whether descended by natural generation from abraham , or not . and this is apparent both from the words , v. . neither because they are the seed of abraham are they all children , but in isaac shall thy seed be called , &c. v. . it is expounded thus : that is , they which are the children of the flesh , these are not the child●en of god , but the children of the promise are counted for the seed ; whence it is apparent , that the same are not alwayes the seed by calling , which are the seed of abraham by naturall generation , and that the children of the flesh are not the same with the children of promise , and that the apostle conceived this the right way of answering those that objected , the falling of gods word upon the rej●ction of the jews , by restraining the promise , of being god to abrahams seed , only to the elect , whether of abrahams naturall posterity , or not , with so little respect to any birth-right priviledge , that he not only rejected ismael , and took isaac , but also loved jacob , and hated esau , by prophesie declaring his minde , the elder shall serve the younger , and in this the apostle acquits god from unrighteousnesse , in that he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardens , notwithstanding his promise made to abraham and israel , or any birth-right priviledge they could claime . that i may not be thought to go alone in this , i will recite some others concurring with me in this , dr. twisse vind . grat. l. . part . . digr . . argumentū apostoli ad probandū foedus dei initū cum abrahamo , non omnes abrahae posteros fimbria sua comprehendere sic simpliciter instituendū esse censemus : esavus & jacobus erant ex posteris abrahae , at horū ut●ūque non cōplexus est deus foedere suo , cum abrahamo inito : ergo non omnes posteros abrahami . probatur autem deum non complexū fuisse utrūque foedere gratiae , quiae non complexus est esavū majorē , sed jacobū minorē . bain on eph. . . p. . he answereth the assumption of the latter syllogism , by distinguishing of israel & children , denying that al israelites are that israel to which gods word belongeth , or that all abrahams seed are those children whō god adopted to himselfe , v. . but such only who were like isaac , first begotten by a word of promise , and partakers of the heavenly calling . the reason is to be conceived in this manner , the rejecting of such who are not the true israel , nor belong not to the number of gods adopted children cannot shake gods word spoken to israel and abrahams seed ; but many of the israelites , and abrahams seed , a●e such to whom the word of god belonged not , ergo , the word of god is firm , though they be rejected . pag. . a childe of the fl●sh being such a one who descendeth from abraham according to the flesh . for it is most plaine , that these did make them thinke th●mselves within the comp●sse of the word , because th●y were israelites , and the seed of abraham , in regard of bodily generation propagated from him ; and arminius doth decline that , in objecting and answering which , this discourse consisteth . beside that , though the sons of the flesh may signifie such who carnally , not spiritually conceive of the law , yet the seed of abraham without any adjoyned , is never so taken . the assumption which is to be proved is this , that many of abrahams seed are such to whom the word belongeth not . the word which belonged not to ishmael and esau , but to isaac and jacob only , and such as were like to them ; that word belonged not to many of those who are the seed of abraham and israelites : but the word shewing gods love , choice , adoption , blessing of israel and abrahams seed , belonged not to esau , ishmael , and such as they were , but to isaac and jacob. amesius animadv . in remonstr . citat . scripta synod . de prae●estin . cap. . § . . thus expresseth the apostles scope . multi sunt ex semine abrahami , ad quos verbum promissionis non spectat , ut ismael , & ismaelitae , si autem multi sunt ex semine abrahami , ad quos verbum promissionis non spectat , tum rejectio multorum judaeorum , qui sunt ex semine abrahami non irritum facit verbum promissionis . out of all which i gather , if the naturall posterity of abraham , were not within the covenant of grace , by vertue of that promise gen. . . then much lesse are our naturall posterity : but the former is true , rom. . , , , , , . therefore the latter is true : and the contrary , delivered in that which i conceive your ●ssertion , false . a second reason is this , the apostles exposition of the promise shews us best what is the meaning of it , but the apostle when he expounds the promise of god to abraham , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , as it was a promise of saving grace , to wit , justification , and life , expounds it as belonging to abraham , not as a naturall father , but as father of the faithfull , whether of the jews , or the gentiles , and his seed , not his naturall , but his spiri●uall seed , christ , and believers , rom. . , , , , . gal. . . . . whence george downham of justification lib. . cap. . § . . speakes thus . the other promises concerning his seed are two : the former concerning the multiplication of his seed , that he should be a father of a multitude of nations , namely , in christ , and that he would be a god to him and his seed , he doth not say to seeds , as of many , but as of one , to thy seed , which is christ , gal. . . that is , christ mysticall , cor. . . containing the multitude of the faithfull in all nations , both jews and gentiles . this promise therefore implyeth the former , that in christ , the promised seed , abraham himselfe , and his seed that is , the faithfull of all nations should be blessed : and in confirmation of this promise , he was called abraham , because he was to be a father of many nations , that is , of the faithfull of all nations , for none but they are accounted abrahams seed , rom. . . . gal. . . . thus he opens the apostles meaning , and thus frequently do protestant divines in their writings . now if only believers are in that promise , as it was a promise of saving grace , then it is not made to the naturall posterity , as such , of any believer , much lesse of us gentiles . my third reason is this . the covenant of grace is the gospel , and so you call it , pag. . when you say , this is a part of the gospel preached unto abraham . now the gospel preached to abraham , the apostle thus expresseth , gal. . , . and the scripture foreseeing , that god would justifie the heathen through faith , preached before the gospel unto abraham , saying , in thee shall all nations be blessed : so then , they which be of faith , are blessed with faithfull abraham , and ver . . but that no man is justified by the law in the sight of god , it is evident , for the just shall live by faith , it is hab. . . by his faith . and generally , when divines distinguish of the covenant of grace , and of workes , they say the condition of the covenant of grace is faith . they then that say the covenant of grace belongs not only to believers , but also to their naturall children , whether believing or not , these adde to the gospel , and the apostle saith of such , gal. . , . let him be accursed . fourthly , i thus argue : if god have made a covenant of grace in christ , not only to believers , but also to their seed , or naturall children , then it is either conditionally , or absolutely ; if conditionally , the condition is either of works , and then grace should be of works , con●rary to the apostle , rom. . . or of faith , and then the sense is , god hath promised grace to b●lievers , and to their seed , if believers , that is , to believers , and believers , which is nugatory . if this covenant of grace to believers seed be absolute , then either god keeps it , or not : if he do not keep it , then he breaks his word , which is blasphemy ; if he do keep it , then it follows , that all the posterity of believers are saved , contrary to rom. . . or if some are not saved , though they be in the covenant of grace , there may bee apostasie of persons in the covenant of grace , by which the arguments brought by mr. prynne , in his perpetuity , and others for perseverance in grace are evacuated , and bertius his hymenaeus desertor justified . the truth is , generally to be in the covenant of grace , and to be elect , and to persevere in grace , are meant of the same persons , according to the apostles doctrine , rom. . , . &c. and the common doctrine of the contra-remonstrants . and on the contrary , bertius in his book de apostasia sanctorum , pag. . among other absurdities which he reckons as consequent on their opinion that deny apostasie of saints , puts this as the seventh . baptismum non obsignare certo in omnibus liberis fidelium gratiam dei ( quum inter illos quidam sint etiam antecedente decreto dei ab aeterno absolute reprobati ) ac proinde dubitandum esse fidelibus de veritate foederis divini , ego sum deus tuus , & seminis tui post te . and when this was urged by the author of the synod of do●t , and arles reduced to the practise , part. . sect. . in these words . for to every person whom they baptize , they apply the promises of the covenant of grace , clean contrary to their own doctrine , which saith , that they nothing belong to the reprobates of the world , dr. twisse answers , that however in the judgement of charity they take all infants brought to be baptized , to be elect , yet the promises of the covenant of grace do indeed belong only to the el●ct , which he proves at large , by shewing that there are promises of the covenant of grace , as of regeneration , circumcising the heart , writing the law in their hearts , jer. . . which must needs be absolute . for no condition can be assigned of performing these promises , but that it will follow , that grace is given , to wit , the grace of faith , according to mens workes , which is plaine pelagianisme . whence he concludes . now then who are they on whom god should bestow faith and regeneration , but gods elect ? and accordingly baptisme as it is a seale , and assurance of performing this promise of justification and salvation unto them that believe , so it is a seale and assurance of the promise of circumcising the heart , and regeneration only to gods elect. and after pag. . vve are ready to maintaine , that all who are under the covenant of grace , are such as over whom sin shall not have the dominion , rom. . . besides , he that shall heare you preach , that the children of believers are in the covenant of grace , and that they that are in the covenant of grace cannot fall away , may be apt to conceive himselfe within the covenant of grace without repentance and faith , and that he shall be saved without obedience , and so lay a ground-work for antinomianisme , and consequently libertinisme . and may not on the other side believing parents , when they see their children vicious , and ungodly , doubt whether they themselves be true believers , because they see not their ch●ldren in the covenant of grace ; and so while you think to comfort parents about their children , you may create great discomfort concerning themselves . lastly , if this were true , that the covenant of grace is a birth-right priviledge , then the children of believers are children of grace by nature , for that which is a birth-right priviledge , is a priviledge by nature : and if , as mr. blak● saith , pag. . of his book , christianity is hereditary , that as the childe of a noble man is noble , the childe of a freeman is free , the childe of a turke is a turke , of a jew a iew , the childe of a christian is a christian ; then christians are born christians , not made christians , and how are they then children of wrath by nature ? which whether they may not advantage pelagians , and denyers of originall sin , it concernes those that use such speeches , to consider . but the author of the writing entituled infants baptizing proved lawfull by scripture , mentions other promises besides that gen. . . to wit , deu. . . deut. . . . isa. . . isa. . . exod. . . psal. . . and such like . to all which the answer is plaine , if men would conceive it . . that according to the apostles own determination , ro. ▪ , . these promises as they contain such things as accompany salvation , must be restrained to the elect , whose children soever they be by naturall generation , and this is agreeable to our saviours applying the promise isa. . . to them that are given of his father , iohn . . and thus are we to understand deut. . . isa. . . . that the text , isa. . . is plainly applied to the time of the calling of the jews , rom. . . and therefore cannot be applied rightly to the posterity of any believers at any time indefinitely . . th●t the promises , deut. . . psal. . . are expresly meant of outward blessings , and therefore cannot prove a covenant of grace in christ. . that exod. . . doth plainly include a condition of obedience , and it is expresly mentioned psal. . , . as included in other promises of like kind , which condition god doth not undertake for any children of a believer , but the elect , nor is christ surety for any but the elect ; and therefore till it can be proved that the election of grace belongs to the children of believers , it cannot be proved that the covenant of grace belongs to them by vertue of these promises . i now return to your sermon . you tell us thus : as it is in other kingdomes , corporations and families ; the children of all subjects born in a kingdom , are born that princes subjects : where the father is a free-man , the childe is not born a slave : where any are bought to be servants , their children born in their masters house , are born his servants . thus it is by the lawes of almost all nations , and thus hath the lord ordained it shall be in his kingdome and family : the children follow the covenant-condition of their parents ; if he take a father into his covenant , he takes the children in with him ; if he reject the parents out of the covenant , the children are east out with them . this passage i might have passed over , as containing nothing but dictates ; yet i think it necessary to observe , . that you do very carnally imagine the church of god to be like civill corporations , as if persons were admitted to it by birth , whereas in this all is done by free election of grace , and according to gods appointment : nor is god tied , or doth tie himself in the erecting and propagating his church , to any such carnall respects , as descent from men . christianity is no mans birth-right ; the apostle knew not that god had so by promise , or other ingagement bound himself , but he was free , as he said to moses after the promise made to abraham , to have mercy on whom he would , rom. . . yea , to conceive that it is in gods church , as in other kingdomes , and after the laws of nations , is a seminary of dangerous superstitions and errors . dr. rainolds , in his conference with hart , hath shewed , that hence arose the frame of government by p●triarchs , metropolitans , &c. and is not this the very reason of invocation of saints , that i mention not more of the like kind ? . when you say , if he take a father into his covenant , he takes the children in with him ; if he reject the parents out of covenant , the children are cast out with them . if you mean this taking in , and casting out , in respect of election and reprobation , it is not true , neither if you mean it of the covenant of grace , for that is congruous to election , and reprobation . nor is it true in respect of outward ordinances ; the father may be baptized , heare the word , and not the child ; and on the contrary , the father may be deprived , and the child may enjoy them . nor is it true in respect of ecclesiasticall censures ; the father may be excommunicated , and the sonne in the church , and on the contrary . and about that which you say , there is no certainty in the paedobaptists determination . rutherford [ the due right of presbyterie , p. . ] saith , the children of papists , and excommunicate protestants , which are borne within our visible church , are baptized , if their forefathers have been sound in the faith . but others will deny it . but it is true as well of paedobaptists , as of anabaptists , that like waves of the sea they beat one agninst another . you tell us , that it was without question in the time of the iews , gen. . . and when any of any other nation , though a canaanite , or hittite , acknowledged abrahams god to be their god , they and their children came into covenant together . that when parents were circumcised , the children were to be circumcised , is without questio● , gods command is manifest ; whether this make any thing for baptizing infants , is to be considered in its place . but that which you say , it was in the time of the iews , if god did reject the parents out of the covenant , the children were cast out with them ; is not true . parents might be idolaters , apostates from judaisme , draw up the fore-skin again , and yet the children were to be circumcised . but in all this there is no argument . the first text you dwell upon , is that , act. . , . and thus you speak . and so it continues still , though the anabaptists boldly deny it , acts . . . when peter exhorted his hearers , who were pricked in their hearts , to repent , and to be baptized for the remission of sins , he useth an argument to perswade them , taken from the benefit which should come to their posterity ; for , the promise ( saith he ) is to you and to your children , and to all that are afar off , even as many as the lord our god shall call : if once they obey the call of god , as abraham did , the promise was made to them and their children . vvhether they who obey this call , were the present jews to whom he spake , or were afar off : whether by afar off , you will mean the gentiles , who as yet worshipped afar off , or the jews , or any who were yet unborn , and so were afar off in time , or whether they dwelt in the remotest parts of the world , and so were afar off in place ; the argument holds good to the end of the world , repent and be baptized for the remission of sins , and ye shall receive the holy ghost , for the promise is made to you and your children , they shall be made free of gods city according to abrahams copy . i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed . it is a very irksome thing to readers , and especially to answerers , when they that handle a controversie , give a text for their assertion , and make a paraphrase of it , but shew not how they conclude from it , by which meanes the enemy is more hardly found then vanquished . i wish , if ever you write any more in this kind , you would distinctly expound , and then frame your arguments out of the text you produce : for the present i shall devorare taedium , swallow downe the tediousnes of this defect as well as i can . you do not distinctly tell us what that promise was , onely i gather it is , that which you after expresse , calling it " abrahams copy , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , but then you do not distinctly tell us , under which part you comprehend the promise to them , whether under the first part , i will be thy god , or under the second , i will be the god of thy seed . it may seem you thus parallel'd them : i will be thy god , with , the promise is unto you ; and , the god of thy seed , with that , the promise is to your children . but i must see better proofe then yet i have seen , afore i assent to this construction , i wil be thy god , that is , of every believer : though the author or infants b●p●izing proved lawfull by scriptures , page . s●ith , it is plaine and manifest by the gramaticall construction of this promise ▪ i professe that i neither know rule in grammar , logicke , or divinity for that interpretation , and yet i thinke all the strength of your proofe lies in this imagined parallelisme . nor doe you tell us of what thing this promise was , which you parallel with abrahams copy , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed ; whether it was a promise of saving graces , or outward priviledges ; onely that which you bring in of zaccheus to interpret it , let him professe the faith of christ , and the covenant of salvation comes to his house , seemes to import that you conceive the meaning thus ; if you once obey the call of god as abraham did , the promise of salvation is to you and your children : and sith you answer the second objection , which you call a shift , by rejecting the limiting of [ to you and your children ] with those words [ as many as the lord shall call ] the sense must be this : the promise of salvation is to you and your children , whether the lord our god call them or not . but this proposition i know you will not stand to , though as you handle the matter , this is made the apostles assertion . but it may be you mean otherwise , thus : if you once obey the call of god , as abraham did , the promise of outward church-priviledges , that is , to be members of the visible church , partakers of baptism , &c. is to you and your children . now what an uncouth reason is by this made in the apostles speech , that if they did repent , and were baptized , the promise should be made good to them and to their children , ( i use your own words , expressing what you conceive the strength of the argument lies in ) that you & they shal be members of the visible church , partakers of baptism , &c. so that the apostle is made to say thus : if you will repent and be baptized , the promise is to you and your children , that you & they shal be baptized . what i conceive is the meaning , i will shew afterwards : in the mean time , because ( though on the by ) you alleage that text , which mr. tho. goodwin also at bow in cheapside urged and insisted on for this purpose , i shall by the way examine what you say . you say , let zaccheus the publican once receive christ himself , be he a gentile , as some think he was , be he a great sinner , esteemed as an heathen , as we all know he was ; let him professe the faith of christ , and the covenant of salvation comes to his , for now he is made a son of abraham , i.e. abrahams promise now reacheth him . upon which i note , . though it be of little moment , whether he were a gentile or no , yet i conceive it more likely he was a jew , partly because his name is more like the hebrew , than the greek or latine ; and partly because if he had been a gentile , christ had plainly discovered the calling of the gentiles , which he did not till afterward : & it would have caused in likelihood greater offence in them to hear a gentile called a son of abraham , who already murmured that he was gone to be a guest to a man that was a sinner . . you thus expound [ a son of abraham . ] that is , abrahams promise now reacheth him . but bez● more truly , filium esse abrahae nihil aliud declarat quam gratis electum esse , rom. . . et vestigiis fidei abrahae insistere , rom. . , et opera abrahae facere , joh , . . ex quibus demum recte colligitur certa futurae salutis expectatio , rom. . . . you only expresse [ this house ] by [ his ] as if you would have it conceived that salvation came only to his children by his believing , whereas mr. tho. goodwin ( if my memory deceive me not ) comprehended the whole family under the term house , discoursing thereupon that a houshold-church was prima ecclesia , the first church , which i marvailed to hear from him , as conceiving it to overthrow the way of government they call the church-way , which is mainly grounded on this , that the first church ( as parker held ) is a single congregation out of many families , and is primasedes potestatis ecclesiasticae , the first seat of ecclesi●sticall power . but i know no reason why , when it is said , salvation is come to this house , it should be stretched any further then zaccheus his person , in that salvation was come to him , salvation was come to his house , and the whole narration favours this exposition , and beza saith that theophylact , and some others understand by house zaccheus himselfe . i omit the conceit of erasmus , and camerarius , as if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thee , did refer to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hous● , for i thinke with beza , it is absurd to say , this house is a son of abraham . . although it be true , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is often a causall particle , yet it is true , that it is sometimes a restrictive particle , as acts . . and acts . . and therefore may be rendred by quatenus as , or in quantum in as much , or secundum quod , according to what , as well as by eo quod quoniam , or quandoquidem , because , or forasmuch . . in your paraphrase , you put instead of salvation , the covenant of salvation , which is not right , what ever author you may follow herein . now let it be considered what an erroneous inference is made , by expounding it of all the posterity or family , and making the particle causall , as if his believing alone did bring salvation to his house or posterity ; from whence this may be gathered , a mans whole house or posterity may be saved barely by his believing , and you will see a necessity to make 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a restrictive particle , and to expound this house of zacheus , his family only , in reference to his person . and so what you take in by the way for the credit of your conclusion , from luke . . is answered by shewing the faultinesse of your paraphrase . but you returne to the text , acts . . you say , neither can the evidence of the place be eluded , by saying the promise here meant i●●f the extrao●dinary gifts of the holy ghost , to speak with tongues , &c. for we all kn●w , that all who then beleeved and were baptized , did not receive those extraordinary gifts of the holy ghost ; and beside , this argument remained still in force , to be used to the end of the world , who ever beleeves and is baptized , shall receive remission of sins , and the gift of the holy ghost , which was not true , if by the holy ghost was meant onely those extraordinary gifts . though i doe not so expound the words , [ the promise is to you and your children ] of the extraordinary gifts of the holy ghost , yet the words next before , and that which is before , verse . , . of the same chapter might very well induce men to conceive that this is the promise of which peter meant , verse . nor doe i conceive your reasons sufficient to overthrow it : for what though all who then , beleeved and were baptized , did not receive those extraordinary gifts of the holy ghost , yet peter might assure them that it should be so for the future , to them , their children , and all that are afarre off , as many as the lord should call : though i doe not say , the thing was true in this sense ; i onely say it might be so true , notwithstanding your argument . and whereas you say this argument remaines still in force to be used to the end of the world , who ever beleeves and is baptized , shall receive remission of sinnes , and the gift of the holy ghost . neither doth this follow from the exposition of the words , verse . by the words , verse . of receiving the gift of the holy g●ost : for there is nothing in the text to prove that this argument still remaines in force as you speake , sith it might be onely a particular benefit to them on their repenting , and baptisme , for ought you can inferre from the text . you go on . nor secondly , can it be avoided by that shift of others who interpret it thus , to you and your children , as many of them as the lord shall call , that is ( say they ) whether your selves or your children , or any other whom the lord shall call , if they repent and be baptized , they shall receive the gift of the holy ghost . if you put in stead of , [ they shall receive the gift of the holy ghost , ] these words [ the promise is to you and them , ] it is no shift , but the genuine and necessarie explication of the text . for let the promise be what ever you can make it , you must put in that limitation if you will have it t●ue . if the promise be of saving graces , if of christ sent , if of the outward ordinances of baptisme , &c. if of the holy ghost in ●xtraordinarie gifts ; it is none of these wayes true without that limitation . for neither god promised saving graces , nor outward ordinances , nor extraordinarie gifts , nor sent christ to them , their children , or all that are afar off without calling them and every of them . but you tell us , it is plaine , the strength of the argument lies in this , that if they did repent , and were baptized , the promise should be made good to th●m and to their children : and what comfortable argument can this be taken from respect to their children , if the apostle must be interpreted as these men would have him , viz. you and your children h●ve hitherto been an holy seed , but now , if you beleeve in ch●ist your selves , your children shall be in no better condition then the rest of the pagan world , strangers from the covenant of god ; but if afterward any of them , or any of the heathen , shall for their parts beleeve and be baptized , their particular persons shall be taken into covenant , but their children still left out ; had this thinke you been a comfortable argument to perswade them to come in , in relation to the good of their children after them . you suppose here , that the apostle used this argument onely in relation to the good of their children , whereas the maine matter was concerning themselves to erect them , who being told that they had crucified iesus who was both lord and christ , verse . and had said , matth. . . his blood be upon us and our children , were pricked in their hearts , and said to peter and the rest of the apostles , men and brethren what shall we doe ? and was it not a comfortable argument for men in that case to be told , that notwithstanding all this , the promise of christ , and remission of sinnes by him , was yet to them and their children , on whom they had wished christs blood to be , and to all the jewes that dwelt afarre off in the di●persion , as many as the lord should call : and a great incitement to repent and be baptized in the name of the lord jesus for the remission of sinnes ? however you conceive now , sure if your soule had been in their soules stead , you would have conceived it a very comfortable speech in this sens● that i now give . as for that witlesse descant you put on your adversaries , i know not whether it be their meaning or not , sure i am no such thing follows on the applying the restriction in the end of the verse , to them , their children , and all that are afarre off . and that which you would burden your adversaries tenent with , as if they put beleivers infants out of the covenant , into the condition of pagans children , it is a coccysme answered before , and therefore i may well let it passe in this place . you adde , the plaine strength of the argument is , god hath now remembred his covenant to abraham in sending that blessed seed , in whom he promised to be the god of him and his seed : doe not you by your unbeliefe deprive your selves and your posteritie of so excellent a gift . in this passage i thinke you hit the marke , it is the very interpretation i gave in the reasons of my doubts before mentioned , in answering the argu●ent from this text : onely the alle●dging the promise , gen. . 〈◊〉 that expression , do not you by your unbeliefe deprive your posteritie of so excellent a gift ; have a little relish of your interpretation of the promise concerning the naturall seed of beleevers : but letting that passe , in the maine you expound it rightly . the promise is to you and your children ; that is , god hath now remembred his covenant to ab●aham in sending that blessed seed , in whom hee prom●sed to be the god of abraham and his seed , and the sense is plaine . t●e promise which is made to abraham is now fulfilled in sending christ to you and your children , and to all that are afarre off , as many as the lord our god shall call , that they might bee turned from their iniquity , ●nd baptized in his name for the remission of their sinnes ; and this agrees with the apostles exhortation to the same purpose ; acts . . . ye are the children of the prophets and of the covenant which god made with our fathers , saying unto abraham , and in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed , unto you first god having raised up his sonne jesus , sent him to blesse you in turning away every one of you from his iniquities . and acts . , . and we declare unto you glad tidings , how that the promise which was made unto the fathers , god hath fulfilled the same unto us their ch●ldren , in th●t he hath raised up jesus againe . you adde . and except in relation to the covenant , there was no occasion to name th●ir children ; it had been sufficient to have said , a promise is made to as many as the lord shall call . though i deny not their children are mentioned in relation to the covenant in the sense i have given , or rather in allusion to the forme of expressions in the covenant , and predictions of the prophets : yet there was other occasion , to wit , their imprecation , matth. . . and especially because christ was , as it is acts . . first sent to the jews and their children , and to be offered first to them , as it is acts . . but it was not to intimate that which you would gather , that the promise is such to them , if they did beleeve that their children , even their infants upon their fathers faith , whether the children were called or not , were taken into the covenant , either of saving graces , or visible church-membership ; which you should have proved , but never will prove out of this scripture . but taking your hypothesis , that these to whom peter speakes were within the covenant made to abraham , and cirumcised rightly , and yet the apostle requires these to repent , afore they are to be baptized ; the antipaedobaptists have hence a good argument against baptizing infants , because peter required of such as were in the covenant , repentance afore baptism . i passe on to the next proof you bring for your conclusion . you say , as plain it is out of the . rom. &c. where the apostles scope is to shew , that we gentiles have now the same graffing into the true olive which the jews formerly had ; and our present graffing in , is answerable to their present casting out , & their taking in in the latter end of the world , shall be the same graffing in ( though more gloriously ) as ours is now . now all know that whē they were taken in , they and their children were taken in ; when they were broken off , they and their children were broken off ; when they shall be taken in , in the latter end of the world , they and their children shall be taken in ; and that because the root is holy , that is , gods covenant with abraham , isaac , and jacob , extends yet unto them , when their unbelief shall be taken away . the root being like nebuchadnezars tree , the tree hewen down , and the root bound with a hand of iron , until seven times were passed over it , and then the bands should be broken , & the root should spring , and the tree should grow again : so their present nation like this tree is cut down , and this holy root the covenant made with their forefathers is suspended , bound with an iron bar of unbelief , blindnesse being come upon them untill the fulnes of the gentiles were come in , and then all israel shall be saved . and mark , that in all this discourse , the holines of the branches there spoken of , is not meant of a personall inherent holines , but a derivative holines ; a holines derived to them frō their ancestors , the first fruit is holy , the lump holy , the root holy , the branches holy , that is , the fathers holy , accepted in covenant with god ; the children beloved for their fathers sake , and when the vail of unbelief shall be taken away , the children and their posterity shal be taken in again , because beloved for their fathers sakes . now then if our graffing in be answerable to theirs , in all , or any of these three particulars , we and our children are graffed in together . your argument needs a swimmer of delos to bring it out of the deep . i will dive as deep as i can to fetch it up ; the thing , it seems , you would prove , is , that we and our children are gr●ffed in together ; but the words are metaphoricall , and therefore obscure , they may be true in a sense , and yet not for your purpose . the insition you speak of may be either into the visible , or invsible church ; the graffing in , may be either by faith , or by profession of faith , or by some outward ordinance . children may be either grown men or infants , the graffing in may be either certain , or probable ; certain , either by reason of election , covenant of grace made by them , or naturall birth , being children of believers ; probable , as being likely , either because fr●quently , or for the the most part it happens so , though not necessary & so not certain . the thing that is to be proved is , that all the infants of every believer are in the covenant of free grace in christ & by vertue thereof to be baptized into the communion of the v●sible church : now it may be granted that infants of believers are frequently , or for the most part under the election & covenant of grac● ( wh●ch whether it be so or not , no meere man can t●l ) and so in the visible chu●ch & yet it not follow that every infant of a believer , in asmuch as he is t●e child of a beli●ver , is under the covenant of grace , & therefore by baptisme is to be admitted into the visible church ; now let it be never so prob●ble , that god continues his election in the posterity of b●lievers & accordingly hath promised to be th●ir god in his covenant of grace , yet if this be the rule of baptizing children of beleivers , no other infants are to b● baptized , but such as are thus : the practise must agree with the rul● ; & so not all infants of believers are to be baptized , but the elect in the covenant of grace . if it be said ; but we are to judge all to be elected , & in the covenant of grace , till the contrary appeares . i answer , that we are not to judge all to be ●l●cted , or in the covenant of grace ; because we have gods declaration of his mind to the contrary , rom. . , , . and all experience proves the contrary to be tru● ; nor is the administration of an outward ordināce instituted by god , according to such a rule as is not possible to be known , but according to that which is manifest to the ministers of it ; & therefore sith god conceals his purpose of election , and the covenant of gr●ce , which is congruous to it in respect of the persons elected ; it is certain god would not have this the rule according to which outward ordinances are to be administred , because such persons are in the election and covenant of grace & not others . you say , our graffing in is answerable to the jews , and their infants were graffed in by circūcision , therefore ours are to be graffed in by baptism . but in good sadnesse , doe you thinke the apostle here meanes by graffing in , baptizing , or circumcision , or insition by an outward ordinance : if that were the me●ning , then breaking off must be meant of uncircumcising or unb●ptizing . the whole context sp●aks of election of some , and rejection of others ; of the breaking off by u●beliefe , and the standing by faith , and your selfe seeme to understand the phrase so , when you say , pag. . to cut miserable man off from the wilde olive , and graffe him into the true olive . t●e ingraffing , to me , is meant of the invisible church by election and faith ; which invisible church was first amongst the jews , and therefore called the olive , out of abraham the root , who is therefore said to beare them . and because abraham had a double capacitie , one of a naturall father , and another of the father of the faithfull , in respect of the former c●pacitie , some are called branches according to nature , others , wilde olives by nature , yet graffed in by faith ; and when it is said that some of the naturall branches were broken off , the meaning is not that some of the branches in the invisible church may be broken off : but as when our saviour christ saith , using the same similitude , joh. . . every branch in me not bearing fruit , he taketh away ; the meaning is not , that any branch truely in him c●uld be fruitlesse , or taken away ; but he calleth that a branch in him which was only so in appearance . so the apostle speaking of branches broken off , meanes it not of such as were truely so , but in appearance : for similitudes doe not runne with four feet ; but vary in some things . now if this be the meaning of your words , that the insition of the gentiles is the same with the jewes , and the insition is meant of ingraffing by faith into the inv●sible church ; it onely proves this , that now bele●v●rs of gentiles are by faith in the church of the elect , as the jewes : but neither the beleeving jewes infants were in the covenant of grace , bec●use their children ; nor are our children . but let us consider the three particulars you speake of , that we may examine whether there be any shew of an argument for your purpose in this text . you say , as plaine it is out of the eleventh of rom. , &c. where the apostles scope is , to shew , that we gentiles have now the same graffing into the true olive which the jews formerly had , and our present graffing in is answerable to their present casting out ; and their taking in , in the latter end of the world , shal be the same graffing in ( though more gloriously ) as ours is now . the apostles scope in the whole chapter is plaine to answer that question , v. . hath god cast away his people ? which he doth , . by shewing for the present in himselfe , and others , perhaps unknowne , that god had then a remnant according to the election of grace . . for the future from ver . . to the end , that he intends a calling of all israel when the fulnesse of the gentiles shall come in , and ver . . is one argument to prove it . it is not the scope of the apostle , as you say , to shew that the gentiles have now the same graffing into the true olive , which the jews formerly had ; but to prove that the jews , notwithstanding their pres●nt defraction , shall be graffed into their owne olive . but for the thing it selfe . you say , that the gentiles hav● now the same graffing into the true olive which the jews formerly had . but you must remember your own distinction , pag. . of the substance of the covenant , and the administration of it : it is certain , that in respect of the substance of the covenant , we have the same graffing into the olive , the church of the faithfull , of which abraham is the root , that the jews had . we by faith are partakers of the root and fatnesse of the olive tree . ver . . or in plainer termes , as the apostle ●l●gantly , ephes. . . that the gentiles should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , fellow-heirs , and of the same body , and partakers of his promise in christ through the gospel . in respect of which all believing gentiles are abrahams seed , the israel of god , one in christ jesus . but if you mean it of the outward administration of this ingraffing by circumcision , baptisme , &c. nothing is more false . for indeed the outward administration is utte●ly taken away , as separating the jews from the gentiles , of very purpose , that the enmity betwixt jews and gentiles may be removed , and they made one in christ by his death , eph. . , , . and if you mean this , when you say , we have the same graffing in with the jews ( which your whole arguing tends to , and your expression in those words [ for these outward ●ispensations ] import you mean it ) you evacuate the blood of ch●ist in this particular . you say , our present graffing in , is answerable to their present casting out . it is true , our present graffing in is an●w●rable to their ( or rather for their ) casting out ; that is , god would supply in his olive tree the church , the casting away of the jews , by the calling of the gentiles , so much the apostle saith , v. . thou being a wilde olive , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , in ramorum defr●ctorum locum , into the place of the branches broken off , as rightly beza ; if you mean it in this sense , i grant it . you adde , and their taking in ( though more gloriously ) as ours is now . it is true , their taking in will be by faith , as ours is now ; concerning other particulars ; as i doubt not but it will be more gloriously , as you say , so for the manner , i must confesse i am at a stand . i look upon it as a mystery , as the apostle cals it , rom. . . you go on . now all know that when they were taken in , they and their children were taken in ; when they were broken off ▪ they and their children were broken off ; when they shall be tak●n in in the latter end of the world , they and their children shall be taken in . i grant it , they were taken in , and broken off togeth●r , in respect of gods election and reprobation , and when they shall be taken in , in the latter end of the world , they and their children shall be taken in . yea , i thinke , that as at the calling of the gentiles there was a fuller taking in of the children of the gentiles , then ever was of the children of the jewes afore ch●ists comming , according to th●t heb. . . so at the calling of the j●ws , there shall be a more full taking in of the children of the j●ws , then is now of the gentiles , according to that , rom. . . and so all israel shall be saved . but all this proves not , that god would have either all infants of believers counted his as elect persons , or in the covenant of grace in christ , or in the face of the visible church admitted to baptisme : which was to be proved by you . you go on . and that because the root is holy , that is , gods covenant with abraham , isaac , and jacob extends yet unto them , when their unbeliefe shall be taken away ; and then after an illustration from nebuchadnezzars dreame , dan. . , . you say of the jews , their present nation like this tree is cut down , and this holy root , the covenant made with their forefathers is suspended , bound with an iron barre of unbeliefe , blindnesse being come upon them till the fulnesse of the gentiles be come in , and then all israel shall be saved . in this passage you somewhat alter the apostles resemblance , who doth not make the jewish nation to answer the tree , but the branches , nor doth he say the tree is cut down , but the branches broken off ; and here you make the covenant the root , but a little after your words import , when you say , a holinesse derived from their ancestors , &c. that by the root you mean their ancestors . and you say , the covenant made with their forefathers is suspended , which in some sense may be true , that is thus , the effects of gods love to israel are for the present suspended from those generations , and so in our apprehension the covenant is suspended ; but in exact speech it cannot be true , sith gods covenant according to his intention and meaning , cannot be suspended or stayed , but doth alwayes take effect irresistibly . in that wherein you alter the resemblance of the apostle , by putting in the cutting down of the tree , instead of breaking off th● branches , you much pervert the apostles meaning ; who makes the tree , that is , the church of believers , still standing , and some branches broken off , and others graffed in . and for that of the root , it is true , it is variously conceived by interpreters , some understanding with you the covenant , some christ , some abraham , isaac , and jacob , and some abraham only , which last i conceive to be genuine , for the expressions of some branches 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , according , to nature , and others 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 besides nature : some naturall , some ingraffed , our not bearing the root , but the root bearing us , are plain evidences to me , that by the root , abraham is meant ; nor know i how to make the resemblance right , but by this exposition . now to say , the root , that is , abraham , is bound with an iron band of unbeliefe , cannot have any handsome construction . but you tell us : and marke that in all this discourse , the holinesse of the branches there spoken of , is not meant of a personall inherent holinesse . then master thomas goodwin is answered , who in urging cor. . . for paedobaptisme , saith , in the new testament , there is no other holinesse spoken of , but personall or reall by regeneration , about the which he challenged all the world to shew the contrary : whereas here is according to you , a holinesse which is not personall , or as mr. blake speakes , qualitative , and inherent . but to go on . you say , but a derivative holinesse , a holinesse derived to them from their ancestors , the first fruit is holy , the lump holy , the root holy , the branches holy ; that is , the fathers holy , accepted in covenant with god , the children beloved for their fathers sake ; and when the vail of unbeliefe shall be taken away , the children & their posterity shall be taken in again , b●cause beloved for their fathers sake : now then , if our graffing in be answerable to theirs in any , or all of these three particulars , we and our children are graffed in together . object . but here is no mention of our infants graffing in . answ. we must not teach the lord to speake , but with reverence search out his meaning ; there is no mention made of the casting out of the jewish infants , neither here , nor elsewhere , when he speakes of taking away the kingdome of god from them , and giving it to the gentiles , who would bring forth fruit ; no mention of the infants of the one , or of the other , but the one and the other , for these outward dispensations are comprehended in their parents , as the branches in the root , the infants of the godly in their parents according to the tenor of his mercy , the infants of the wicked in their parents according to the tenor of his justice . there are sundry things in this passage you would have to be marked , that deserve indeed to be marked , but with an obeliske , not with an asteriske , as . that you oppose personall inherent holinesse to derivative , as inconsistent . the truth is , the holinesse the apostle speaks of , is , first in respect of gods election , holinesse personall and inherent , in gods intention , he hath chosen us that we should be holy , ephes. . . secondly , it is also holinesse derivative , or descending , not from any ancestors , but from abraham , not barely , as a naturall father , but as a spirituall father , or father of the faithfull , and so derived from the covenant of grace , which passed in his name to him and his seed . and lastly , it shall be inherent actually , being communicated by the spirit of god , when they shall be actually called . but this is such a kinde of holinesse , as is more then you mean , to wit , not only an adherent , or relative holinesse , which they have by enjoying outward ordinances , but also inherent , by faith , whereby they a●e holy , as the root , that is , abraham the father of the faithfull . . whereas you make it the case of any believers to be a holy root , to their posterity , especially in the following words , when you say , the infants both of the jews , and gentiles for these outward dispensations , are comprehended in their parents , as the branch in the root , the infants of the godly in their parents , according to the tenor of his mercy , the infants of the wicked in their parents , according to the tenor of his justice : master blake pag. . more plainly , the branches of ancestors are roots of posterity , being made a holy branch in reference to their issue , they now become a holy root . this is not true , for in the apostles resemblance , abraham only is a holy root , or at most , abraham , isaac , and iacob , in whose names the covenant runs . no other man , though a believer , is the father of the faithfull , but abraham : and the body of believers is compared to the olive , and each believer to a branch , that partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree , not in outward dispensations only , as you speak , but also in saving graces , which is mainly here intended . i remember master thomas goodwin , who hath handled this matter of pae●obaptisme , by spinning out similitudes and conjectures ( fit indeed for the common people , that are more taken with resemblances then syllogismes ) rather then with close arguments : indeavoured to infer a kinde of promise of deriving holinesse from believers to their posterity , out of the similitude of an olive , and its branches , compared with psal. . . &c. but it is dangerous to strain similitudes beyond that likenesse the holy ghost makes . it is a tedious thing to auditors that look for arguments , to be deluded with similitudes and conjectures . . whereas you alluding to the words of the apostle , v. . that the jews were beloved for their fathers sake , carry it , as if this were true of any believing parents ; the apostle meanes it of those fathers only , in whose names the covenant was made , especially abraham called the friend of god , jam. . . and the father of the faithfull , rom. . . and in reference to the promises made to them , they are beloved , and therefore it is added , ver . . for the gifts and calling of god are without repentance . lastly , you say that the infants of the wicked for these outward dispensations , are comprehended in their parents , according to the tenor of gods justice . i intreat you to consider , whether this speech do not symbolize with the tenet of arminius in his antiperkins on the fourth crimination , and in the end of his treatise , where he maketh the cause , why the posterity of some people have not the gospel , to be their forefathers fault in refusing it . against which you may see what doctor twisse opposeth in both places , and moulin in his anatomy of arminianisme , cap. . and thus it may appeare , that you have very much darkened this illustrious scripture , by applying that holinesse and insition to outward dispensations only in the visible church , which is meant of saving graces into the invisible by faith , and made every believer a like root to his posterity , with abraham to his seed . i am now come to your principall hold , you say . and yet plainer ( if plainer may be ) is the speech of the apostle in . cor. . . the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife , and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband , else were your children uncleane , but now they are holy . by the way . because you acknowledge in the margin page . that " signifies to , as well as in , and you conceive it may be here read [ in ] or [ to ] as well as [ by ] and though our translators following the vulgar read [ by ] yet beza dislikes that reading ; it might have done well in the citing of this text by you , to have given some hint of that varietie . but to follow you . you say , the plain scope and meaning thereof is this . the believing corinthians amongst other cases of conscience , which they had sent to the apostle for his resolution of , had written this for one , whether it were lawfull for them who were converted , still to retaine their infidell wives or husbands . you doe rightly here expresse the scope of the apostle , but you make another scope , page . when you say ; we must attend the apostles scope , which is to shew , that the children would be unholy , if the faith or believership of one of the parents could not remove the barre , which lies in the other being an unbeliever , against the producing a holy seed ; which i shall shew in its place , not to be the scope of the place ; but only this which you first give . you then say , their doubt seemes to arise from the law of god , which was in force to the nation of the jews , god had not only forbidden such marriages to his people ; but in ezra's time they put away , not onely their wives : but all the children that were borne of them , as not belonging to the common-wealth of israel : and it was done according to the law , and that law was not a particular edict which they did agree upon but according to the standing law of moses , which that word there used signifieth , and in nehemiahs time the children who were born of such marriages were accounted a mungrell kinde , whom nehemiah cursed : now hereupon these corinthians doubted whether their children as well as their wives , were not to be accounted unclean : and so to be put away according to th●se examples . you declared rightly the scope before : but the doubt is not rightly put by you . the corinthians had no doubt whether their children were unclean , and to be put away ; for the apostle , argues from the uncleanes●e of their children , as a thing that appeared absurd to them , they tooke it as a common received principle , that their childr●n wer● holy , as rightly master thomas goodwin at bow-church . and for the occasion of the doubt , though i deny not , but the corinthians might know that fact of ezra . and . yet that the reading of it was the cause of their doubt i see no evidence o● likelihood , though master blake pag. . takes it as granted , joyning with the relations , ezra . and . that resolution , hag. . . . as the occasion of the doubt , and mr. thomas goodwin seemed confident of it that it could be no other upon a supposed agreement of matter and phrase . but for matter i see very little agreement , the cases being f●r different of two persons not under the law ma●rying in unbeliefe , and of two persons under the law , the one a iew by prof●ssion , the other a stranger . and for phrases , exc●pt the word [ holy ] i observe no other phrase used in ezra which is used by the apost●e ; not the phrase of unbelieving husband or wife , or sanctified to , in , or by the wife or husband , nor the phrase of unclean children , and for the tearm [ holy ] the apostle doth not use the phrase [ holy seed ] as ezra doth . in my apprersion it is farre more likely that ●●e ●oubt arose from the epistle he wrote before to them mentioned , cor. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ● . not to keep company with fornicators or idolaters , which might occasion the question , whether they were then to continue with their unbelieving yoke fellows ? but let us examine the apostles resolution , you say . to which the apostle answers , no , they were not to be put away , upon what speciall , reason soever , that law was in force to th● jews , believing ch●●stians were not in that condition . the unbelieving wife was sanctified in the believing husband , quoad hoc , so far as to bring forth a holy seed . were it with them , as when both of them were unbelievers , so that n●ither of th●m had a prerogative to intitle their children to the covenant of grace , thier children would be an unclean progeny : or were the children to b● reckoned in the condition of the worser parent , so that the unbeliever could contribute more to paganisme , than the believer to christianity , it were so likewise . but the case is otherwise ; the believing husband hath by gods ordinance a sanctified use of his unbeli●ving wife ; so as by gods speciall promise made to believers and their seed , they were invested in , and to the most spirituall end of marriage , the continuance of a holy seed , wherein the church is to be propagated to the worlds end . and the case is he●e in relation to posterity , for spirituall priviledges , as in other marriages for civill priviledges : as , suppose a prince or noble man marry with a woman of base and mean birth , though in generall it be true , that the children of those that be base , are born base , as well as the children of nobles are bor● noble , yet here the issue hath h●nour from the father , and it is not accounted base by the basenes of the mother . this i take to be the plain meaning of the apostles answer . and must your readers , thinke you , take it on your word , without shewing that the tearms are so used else where , or connexion of the words , or the analysis of the text lead you to it ? but it is necessary that i discusse this matter more fully , then by returning a bare denyall , to a bare affirmation . concerning the answer verse . there is no difference , all the diff●rence is concerning the reason of the resolution delivered ver . . and the meaning of it . there are these terms doubtfull . . what is meant by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the wife ; and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the husband . . what is meant by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is sanctified . . what is meant by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 unclean . . what by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 holy . it is agreed , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be read , in , to , or by . it is agreed , that to be sanctified , hath many senses , and t●at the sense wherein sanctification is taken for renovation of mind , is not here meant , for so an unbeliever is not sanctified , and the speech is in sensu composito , in a compound sense to be understood : an unbeliever , though an unbeliever , is sanctified . nor is it true of any kind of ceremoniall sanctification , or sanctification for enjoying religious ordinances ; for such could not agree to an unbeliever . therefore there remain only two senses , the one of an instrumentall sanctification , as mr. goodwin cals it , for the begetting a holy seed ; the other of matrimoniall sanctification , whereby the one is enjoyed as a chaste yoke-fellow by another , without fornication . the former of these , your words intimate , you imbrace , when you say , the unbelieving wife was sanctified in the believing husband , quoad hoc , so far as to bring forth a holy seed . but against this are these reasons , . this could not have resolved the doubt in the case of those , who by age could not be sanctified to this end , or by reason of accidentall inability for generation , they might depart each from other , notwithstanding this reason : whereas the apostles resolution is , of all husbands and wives ; the unbelieving husband is sanctified , that is , every unbelieving husband is sanctified . if meant of instrumentall sanctification , it were true only of those that are apt for generation , yea that do actu●lly generate : whereas the apostles determination is concerning any husband or wife that were of different religion . . if the apostle , by being sanctified , meant instrumentally sanctified to beget a holy seed , then the reason had been thus : you may live together , for you may beget a holy seed . and so their consciences should have been resolved of their present lawfull living together , from a future event , which was uncertain ; it had been taken from a thing contingent , that might be , or not be : whereas the resolution is , by a reason taken from a thing certain , a thing present , or past ; and therefore he useth the preterperfect tense , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath been sanctified ; yea , in probability he speaks of a sanctification , even when both were unbelievers : for he saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 twice in the preterperfect tense , and he mentions the unbelieving , distinctly ; but the believer , without the expression of his , or her faith , under the title of husband , or wife ; and saith , your children , indiscriminatim , without difference , as well those you had before one of you was a believer , as since . however , it is manifest the apostles reason is taken from a thing not contingent , but certain , not future , but present or past , and therefore not from instrumentall sanctification for the begetting of a holy seed , which was a future thing , and that contingent . this was so manifest to chamier , that , tom . . panstrat . cathol . lib. . c. . § . . he proves , that sanctification here cannot be understood of sanctification by conv●rsion of the unbeliever through the diligence of the wife , from this reason : primum quia incerta ratio est , etsi enim nonnunquam ita factum , tamen plerumque etiam aliter , which i may apply to your instrumentall sanctification , in the same words . and after , in praeteritum dixit ; sanctificatus est non autem sanctificabitur , rem jam constitutam , & peractam non autem in futurum rem incertam , aut optandam , aut expectandam . . when any person is said to be instrumentally sanctified for a purpose , this sanctification is ascribed to god , as jer. . . isa. . . as selecting some from others to such an use , but here the sanctification is common to all unbelieving husbands in resp●ct of their wives , and comes from that common relation , not speciall d●signation . . according to this exp●si●ion , the words following could not be true , else were your children uncleane , but now are they holy : for in this form of reasoning , this proposition is included . their children could not be holy without that sanctification , but that had been false , understanding it of instrumentall sanctification ; and of foederall , or of reall inherent personall holinesse . for their children might be in covenant , and be regenerated , though their parents by reason of their unbeliefe had been neither of them sanct●fied to the other , for the begetting of a holy seed . the children of infidel-parents may be in the covenant of grace , and be sanctified . it remaines then that the sanctification which i call matrimoniall , is here meant , which i expresse in beza's words , thus : fidelis uxor potest cum infideli marito bona conscientia consuescere ( cur enim aliena conscientia eam pollueret ) idcirco dicitur infidelis ille non in sese , sed in uxore ( id est uxoris respectu ) sanctus esse , idem quoque de altero membro judicandum est . that this may be the sense , i gather from the like use of the word , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tim. . . where the creature of god is said to be sanctified , that is , lawfully used , in opposition to that which is to be refused ; so here , the unbelieving husband is sanctified , that is , lawfully enjoyed as a husband , by , or to , or in respect of his wife , whether believer , or unbeliever , in this case there is no difference . and this your own words import , pag. . when you thus speake . he saith indeed , the unbelieving wife is sanctified in the believing husband , or to the believing husband ; that is , to ●is use , as all other creatures are , as the bad he lies on , the meat he eats , the cloaths he wears , and the beast he rides on are sanctified to his use . and this sense is the more confirmed , in that , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , sanctification , is the same with chastity , thess . . so that the sense is , the unbelieving husband is sanctified to his wife , that is , lawfully or chastly , used as a husband , without fornication in respect of his own wife , whether believer or unbeliever , and therefore not to be refused . and this sense only serves for the purpose of the apostle . the words are a reason why they might lawfully live together : the reason must be taken from that which was not contingent , but certain , as chamier saith truly , tom . . paustrat . cathol . l. . c. . § . . haec est meus apostoli , ut doceat fideli non discedendum a conjuge infideli , consentiente in habitationem ; cui rei conficiendae ineptum ●st aeque ac paul● ante argumentum ab eventu incerto ac per accidens , hinc refutatur illo sententia quae imaginatur tandem cum etiam infidelis conversus erit , generatum iri filios sanctos : nam quid si nunquam fiat ? take it then in your sense , it had been no satisfactory reason . you may live together , though one party be an unbeliever , because you may beget a holy seed ; but this wa● meerly contingent , uncertain , and by accident , not arising from their present estate , but from something future , which might not be , possibly they might have no children at all : how shall persons then be satisfied from this reason ? but in the other acception of matrimoniall sanctification , the reason is plain and satisfactory : let them , if they will , live together , though one be a believer , the other an un●eliever ; for though there be difference in religion , yet marriage continues still , they are husband and wife , and are so sanctified to each others use , in respect of their chaste enjoyment of each other , and it is no sin for them to accompany together , notwithstanding the u●belief of the one party ; for marriage is honorable among all , even unbelievers , and the bed undefiled , heb. . . and holin●sse and honour are terms of like sense in this matter , thes. . . and the like resolution the apostle gives , vers . . . concerning circumcised or uncircumcised persons and servants , they might continue circumcised and uncircumcised persons and servants to their masters , notwithstanding their christian calling , it did not dissolve those relations ; so that to me it is very cleare , that the sanctification here spoken of is matrimonial sanctification . as for instrumentall sanctification , for the begetting a holy seed , i know not of any before mr. thomas goodwin that hath so expounded it ; but beza and many others expound it of matrimoniall sanctification . which is further confirmed in that the apostle when he speakes of the believing party saith not the believing wife or husband , but the husband or wife , which is to me a plaine evidence , that the apostle placeth the reason of their sanct●fication , not in the faith of either party , but in the relation of husband and wife . but of this more in the answering of your second argument . now let this be granted ( as of necessity it must ) then the uncleannesse must be understood of bastardy , and the holines of legitimation ; for no other holines follows necessarily to the children , in that their parents marriage is lawfull , and they borne of such parents , but legitimation nor any other uncleannes follows upon the denying of it but bastardy . and therefore who ever they be that interpret it of legitimation , they doe it rightly , call them how you will. and that i may cleare it , let the apostles reason be resolved . to conceive it we are to consider , . that the words [ els were , &c. ] are not a resolution of another doubt , but an argument to prove that which was said last , as the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shews ; for the tearmes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 els were , are argumentative , as much as quoniam tum , because then , used so , cor. . . . rom. . . to prove that which went before . . that here the argument is ab absurdo , from an absurditie , which would follow , if the thing to be proved were not granted , and the speech must needs be elliptick : and somwhat is to be repeated to make the speech full , as when it is said , rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . if by grace , it is no more of workes , else grace were no more grace : to make the sense full , you must adde , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , because if of works : so here , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. for if the unbelieving husband hath not been sanctifi●d to the wife , your children , &c. so that this is the argument of the apostle entire : if the unbelieving husband were not sanctified by the wife , then were your children unclean , but they are not unclean , but holy , ergo , the unbelieving husband is sanctified to the wife . now the major of this syllogism is a conditional , and the s●qu●l of it were not true , if this proposition were not true : all the children of those parents whereof the one is not sanct●fied to the other are unclean . now if the sanctification be here meant of matrimonial sanctificatiō , as i have proved it must , and the uncleannesse be meant of federall uncleannesse , so as to exclude them out of the covenant , whether of saving-graces , or church-priviledges , the proposition were most false , sith that children of parents , whereof one was not matrimonially sanctified to the other , but came together unchastly , as pharez and zarah of iudah , and tamar , iepthe of gilead , and many others were within the covenant of saving graces , and church priviledges , and therefore to make the proposition true ( without which the apostle speakes that which is false ) it must be understood of uncleannesse by b●stardy : for it is true of no other uncleannesse , that all children of those parents , whereof the one is not sanctified to the other are uncleane . and that this is the force of the apostles reasoning , chamier saw , panstr . cathol . tom . . lib. . c. . § . . when arguing against the conceit ascribed to augustine concerning ceremoniall holinesse , he saith thus . de ceremoniali illa sanctitate quid dicam ? venit in mentem augustino , sed deus bone ! quam aliena ? profecto quaedam sunt tam absurda ut refutari non mereantur . euge. dixit apostolus , si non sanctificetur maritus infidelis in vxore fideli futurum ut filij inde nati sint impuri , ergo omnes sic nati sunt impuri aut falsum dixit apostolus . quid ergo ? omnesne nati ex ijs parentibus quorum alter non santificatur in altero geniti sunt in menstruis ? nunquamne infideles utuntur uxoribus nisi menstruatis ? ita oportet sane aut hanc ridiculam esse interpretationem . i may apply the same words to chamier his interpretation of foederall sanctity . de faederali illa sanctitate quid dicam ? venit in mentem chamiero , calvino , &c. sed deus bone ! quam aliena ? profecto quaedam sunt tam absurda ut refutari non mereantur ; euge. dixit apostolus , si non sanctificetur maritus infidelis in uxore futurum ut filij inde nati sint impuri , ergo omnes sic nati sunt impuri , aut falsum dixit ap●stolus , quid ergo ? omnesno nati ex ijs parentibus quorū alter non sanctificatur in altero sunt extra foedus gratiae ? nunquāne parentes infideles aut fornicantes gignunt liberos intra foedus gratiae futuros , ita oportet sane aut ridiculam han● esse interpretationem . as for the other words , but now are they holy ; the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but now , is not an adverbe of time here , as beza rightly , but as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 else were , so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bu● now , is a particle of reasoning used in the assumption of arguments , which shews it is the assumption of the apostles argument , and therefore it must be understood of holinesse opposi●e to the uncleannesse mentioned , but that being no other then bastardy , the holinesse can be meant of no other , then legitimation . nor is this any whit an unlikely sense , sith bastards were reckoned among uncleane persons , deut. . . and the apostles expression may be allusive to the iewish speaking or estimation . and why it should be thought strange , that holy should signifie legitimate , i know not , when as mal. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a seed of god , rendred by your selfe , page . a holy seed , is all one with a legitimate seed , as calvin rightly expounds it , and the words must be understood ; for they speak of the first institution of marriage , which was not to seek a seed of god distinct from the wicked ( for it is spoken of the generall end of all marriages ) but a lawfull seed : whereto i may adde , that marriage hath had the reputation of a holy estate , as the liturgie calls it , and as that excellent booke intituled , the union of christ and the church in a shadow , by r. c. prov●s . as for mr. blakes quaere , pag. . whether we will give the like interpretation of gal. . . which is , saith he , every way parallel , and answers in either of the branches ? doth the apostle here meane we that are by birth legitimate , and not bastards of the gentiles . i may apply to him the words of him in the poet. cernimus , an qui amant ipsi sibi somnia fingunt ? doe we see ? or doe they that love , faine dreames to themselves ? for i cannot tell how to interpret this passage , that cor . and gal. . . are very way parallel , and the one to be interpreted by the other , any otherwise then as a conceit in a dream , like as when the fancy from gold and a mountaine compounds a golden mountain . and for his argument which he drawes from the text , on which his discourse is builded , in that the apostle contra distinguisheth , jews by nature , and sinners of the gentiles , ( which the phrase shews the apostle useth after the vulgar manner ; for otherwise jewes are by nature sinners , as well as the gentiles ) to prove that the infants of believers are in the covenant of grace , and have a birth-priviledge for baptisme , it is a riddle to mee . the meaning of the words is plainly this ; we are born jews and not gent●les who are reputed sinner● , yet we know that a man is not justified by the works of the law , to observe which by birth we were tied , and therfore peter did ill to compel the gentiles to judaize , to keep the law of moses , thereby dissembling the l●bertie they had in ch●●st , and bringing them into bondage ; so that it is plaine he mentions jewes by nature , to shew their obligation to the law by their birth , and he calls the gentiles sinners , according to the common expression of them , as not observing the law of the jews , and ther●fore when mr. blake saith , that he contend● to have the seed of believing parents under the gospel , to be under the first member of the division in the text . it is a strange speech , that he sh●uld contend to prove this , the seed of believing gentiles are jews by nature , born to be circumcised , and to keepe moses law . but let it be granted , that they are called sinners in the sense he would have it , tha● is , out of the covenant , as it is said , ephes. . . the question is , in what sense the gentiles were without the covenant , and the jewes in . it is certaine the jews had by gods appointment the priviledge of circumcision , and the covenant made with abraham did belo●g to them in speciall manner , and the oracles were with them , rom. . , . and the covenant of saving-grace was among them , till they were by unbeliefe broken off , and that the gentiles were dogs , uncleane persons , aliens from the commonwealth of israel , without god , without christ , &c. and so it may be granted that the jews had a birth privledge , though it is certaine , that their birth did not intitle them to the covenant of grace , and that the common priviledge of circumcision belonging to the jews , did not arise from the covenant of grace , accotding to the substance of it , but according to the admi●ist●ation that then was , nor was a fruit of the faith of the parents , but of gods appointment according to the dispensation of his will , in that time of the churches minoritie ; but he that will prove , that ther●fore our children have such a birth priviledge , because the jews had , must make our case as the jews , and so bring us under the ceremoniall law . but of this wee shall have occ●sion hereafter to ●peake more fully , onely by the way i thought it necessary to say so much , because master vines referres us to master blakes sermon as a learned treatise , and i heard it in like manner magnified by master calamy , and therefore have thought it necessary some where or other to ●xamine what hath any seeming strength in it . and for the same reason i take notice of that speech of master blake , page . singular opinions put men upon singular interpretations ; which may as truely be verified of himselfe , as of his adversaries , in that which occasioned him so to speake . another booke lately published , being the treatise of one mr. william cook , and commended by master francis woodcocke , one of your assembly , as i conceive , in the . page of it saith . whoever before ( but b●llarmine , or such iesuiticall interpreters of scripture ) tooke it so , putting uncleane for bastards , or holy for legitimate . and in the margin , note reader , that this is bellarmines interpretation , and after , whether a. r. borrowed this answer of bellarmine , or invented it of himselfe ( as it is the happinesse of the good wits , and holy affections of iesuiticall and anabaptisticall heads and hearts to jump in the same thing ) let others judge . mr. woodcock had done well to have left out this passage : for , first , although i have not now bellarmines book by me , to examine whether it be his interpretation or no , yet i perceive by chamier , panstr . cathol . tom . . lib. . cap. . § . . who saith thus , hoc observato bellarminum e tribus quas enumerat , non iudicare quam cui praeferat , quasi nihil interess●t , this being observed , that bellarmine , of the three senses which he reckons , doth not shew which he preferres , as if it were of no behoofe ; that that author did not well heed bellarmine , when he makes it his opinion , because he numbers it amongst other opinions . secondly , that authour not only erroneously , but also otherwise in an unfitting way , makes it a jesuiticall interpretation only , whereas he might have perceived that bellarmine cites others then jesuites for that interpretation ; and if he be not to be believed , yet chamier might be believed , who saith in the same place , § . . sic ambrosium , thomam , anselmum exposuisse , & hunc suarez appellat literalem sensum : that ambrose , thomas , anselme , so expounded it , and this suarez cals the literall sense . and before bellarmine , musculus in his commentarie on cor. . . alleageth ambrose and hierome so expounding it , and confesseth that though he had abused formerly that place against the anabaptists , yet he found that of matrimoniall sanctification and sanctity , to be the right sense . and melancthon , and camerarius doe expound it of legitimation : gagnaeus parisiensis , in loc . also so expounds it : and osiander , enchir. controv . cum anabap. c. . q. . mariana schol . in loc . and as for that of foederal holinesse , i have rather reason to conceive it to be a new exposition , the ancients expounding it otherwise , none that ever i met with , expounding it of federall holinesse , till the controversie of the anabaptists in germanie arose . you say , but this cannot be the meaning , i clearly prove by these foure arguments . first , uncleannesse , and holinesse , when opposed one to the other , are never taken for civilly lawfull . nor do i like the calling of it civill holinesse , for it is not from the lawes of men , but the institution of god , and therefore i rather call it matrimoniall holinesse . you say , vncleanesse , indeed , when opposed to cleanesse , may be taken in severall senses , an unclean vessel , an unclean cloth , an unclean garment , when opposed to clean , may signifie nothing but dirty or spotted : but when unclean●sse is opposed to holinesse , it is alwayes taken in a sacred sense , referring to a tabernacle use , to a right of admission into , or use in the tabernacle or temple , which were types to us of the visible church ; and holinesse is alwayes taken for a separation of persons or things from common to sacred uses . it is hard for you to make good , nor is it materiall for me to disprove that which you say , that when uncleanesse is opposed to holinesse , it is alwayes taken in a sacred sense , referring to a tabernacle use , to a right of admissi●n into , or use in the tabernacle or temple , which were types to us of the visible church . for if it were true , yet the sense i give might stand good , sith uncleanesse for bastardy might be taken allusively to the tabernacle , if the exclusion of bastards from the congregation of the lord , were an exclusion from the tabernacle ; and so the sense might be good , that uncleanesse is bastardy , though that which you say were true , that uncleanesse , as opposed to holinesse , refers to a tabernacle use . howsoever it is enough , that i have proved , that the word uncleanesse must be taken here for bastardy , if the apostles reason stand good . yet let me intreat you to look a little on that text , thes. . . and tell me , whether uncleanesse there be not opposed to holinesse , and whether it be taken in a ●acred sense , refer●ing to a tabernacle use , to a right of admission into , or use in the tabernacle or temple , which were types to us of the visible church . me thinks , by uncleanesse is meant fornication , and by holinesse , chastity ; and that comes very near the adjectives for bastards , and legitimate , which are cons●quent on fornication , and lawfull generation . and the words of the apostle , cor. . . opposing filthinesse of the flesh , to holinesse , makes me conceive you were mistaken in your speech , when you say , in that opposition , uncleanesse is alwayes taken in a sacred sense . and when you say , that holinesse is alwayes taken for a separation of persons and things , from common to sacred uses . me thinks you might have considered , that thes. . the holy ghost saith thus : this is the will of god , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , your holinesse , i.e. saith beza , that you abstain from fornication . now , abstinence from fornication , you will not say is separation from common to sacred uses . and when the apostle saith , cor. . . that she may be holy in body , is it not meant , that she may be chaste ? you go on . even the meats and drinks of believers , sanctified to them , serve for a religious end and use , to refresh them who are the temples of the holy ghost . is it a religious end and use , to refresh them who are the temples of the holy ghost ? then the godly , in eating and drinking , do an act of religion , because they ref●esh themselves . it is true , when their meats are sanctified to them , they use them religiously , but not because they refresh their bodies , which are the temples of the holy ghost , but because they use them with the word , and prayer . if refreshing the temple of the holy ghost , be a religiou● use and end , then the inordinate eating of a godly man , or the feeding of a godly man by a prophane person , is a religious use and end . you adde , so that they have not only a lawfull , but a holy use of their meat and drink , which unbelievers have not , to whom yet their meat and drink is civilly lawfull . this is true ; but how this proves , that unclean may not be taken for bastard , and holy for legitimate , i see not . you go on . and whereas some say , thes. . . . that chastity , a morall vertue found among heathens , is called b● the name of sanctification : let every one possesse his vessell , not in the lust of concupiscence , but in sanctification and honour . i answer , chastity among heathens is never called sanct●fication , but among believers it may be called so , being a part of the new creation , a branch of their sanctification wrought by the spirit of god , a part of the inward adorning of the temple of the holy ghost . but this is bu● a shift ; for why may not an unbeliever he said , as w●ll to possesse his vess●ll in holines , is to be sanctified ? b●sides , are not sanctification , and cleannesse , and honour , all one in these passages ? and doth not the apostle say , heb. . . that marriage is honourable among all , ( even infidels ) and the bed und●filed ? and though the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 holinesse , be not found among the heathen writers , as being ( so farre as i can finde ) a word used only among ecclesiasticall writers ; yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used for c●st●moniam servo , i preserve chastity : as stephanus , in his thesaurus , ●bserves out of demosthenes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , where a priest of bac●hus speaks thus : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i am holy and pure f●om the company of man. and the words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , chaste , to be chaste , to make chaste , chastity ; comming from the same root with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 holy : whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to reverence , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to admire , as grammarians conceive , are used for holinesse and chastity , very frequently , both in scripture ▪ and in all sorts of greek writers . so that what you say , that [ holy ] cannot be taken for [ legitimate ] but must be taken for persons admissible into the church ; i● is so farre from being true , that notwithstanding any thing you have said , yet that sense both may and must be , if the apostles reasoning be good . but you assault it with a second argument . secondly , this being so , had this been the meaning , else were your children uncleane , but now they a●e holy ; else had your children been bastards , but now they are legi●imate : the apostles answer had not been true , because if then one of the parents had not been a believer , and so by being a believer sanctified his unbelieving wife , their children must have been bastards : whereas we know their children had been legitimate , being borne in lawfull wedlock , though neither of the parents had been a believer . marriage , being a second table-duty , is lawfull ( though not sanctified ) to pagans , as well as to christians : and the legitima●ion , or illegitimation of the issue depends not upon the faith , but upon the marriage of the parents ; let the marriage be lawfull , and the issue is legitimate , whether one , or both , or neither of the parents be believers , or infidels : take but away lawfull marriage betwixt the man and the woman , and the issue is illegitimate , whether one , or both , or neither of the parents are believers , or infidels . withall , if the children of heathens be bastards , and the marriage of heathens no m●rriage ; then there is no adultery among heath●ns , and so the seventh commandement is altogether vain in the words of it , as to them . this is indeed the principall reason that hath prevailed with many , to interpret this passage of federall holinesse , not of matrimoniall ; because they conceive here is a priviledge ascribed to the believing wife , or husband , in respect of the faith of the one person , not common to such with infidels . whereas the holinesse here expressed is not from the quality of faith , but from the relation of husband and wife . for that onely was agreeable to the apostles purpose : to assure them that in the disparity of religion they might live together still , because the unbeliever , though an unbeliever , notwithstanding his infidelity , is and hath been still lawfully injoyed and sanctified to his wife . so that the force of the apostles reason is taken from the lawfulnesse of marriage amongst infidels . this was so plaine to chamier . tom . . panstr . cathol . lib. . cap. . sect . . that he writes thus ; hoc argumento excluditur ea sanctitas quam nonnulli praetulerunt ab educatione , nam ab ista peni●ùs delumbatur argumentum apostoli . haec enim incerta est : nôrunt enim omnes , & docet experientia , neque omnes viros lucrifieri , quod etiam innuit apostolus , neque omnes liberos obsecundar● sanctae educationi . praeterea si qui obsecundent , tamen hic effectus est accidentalis , non autem ex ipsius matrimonii naturâ . and this is confirmed , that the sanctification of the husband , and the holinesse of the children , comes from the nature of marriage , because the apostle when he speaks of the unbelieving party , names him or her , under the terme of unbelieving husband or wife , because the doubt was of the unbeliever , in respect of his unbeliefe ; but when he speakes of the believing party , how ever the vulgar latine thrusts in [ believing ] twice , and one old copy beza found , that had in the margin , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . believing wife and believing husband , and a copy of clermont had 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to the husband a brother , yet all the copies besides reade simply without that epithet [ to the wife , to the husband ] without believing . the reason cannot be conceived righ●ly to be any other , but that although the person meant were a believer , as well as a wife or a husband ; yet in this passage they were considered onely as husband or wife , and not as believers ; to intimate that the sanctification did not come from the faith of the party , but from conjugall relation . so that whereas you say , that upon the interpretation given , it would follow that there would be no lawfull marriage amongst heathens , or legitimate children , because you conceive the sanctification & holinesse here proper to believers and their children , the contrary is most true , and most agreeable to the apostles meaning , who doth not here ascribe the sanctification , either of the unbeliever , or the children , to the faith of either partie , but to the conjugall relation , and mentions here no priviledge , but what was common to all married persons amongst the heathens . thus is your principall argument answered ; i passe on to the next . you say besides s t pauls reason had no strength in it , supposing the text were to be interpreted as these men would have it . their doubt ( say they ) was that their marriage was an unlawfull wedlocke , and so consequently their children bast●rds . you doe not herein rightly set downe your adversaries explication of the apostle ; the doubt was onely , whether the beleever might continue with the unbeliever in conjugall use : the apostles resolution was they might , for they were sanctified each to other , notwithstanding the unbeliefe that was in the one partie ; for if it were otherwise , their children were bastards . there was no doubt , as you say , of their childrens bastardy ; the apostles reason supposeth it was out of doubt with them . you adde . now marke what kinde of answer they make the apostle give . were you not lawfull man and wife , your children were bastards ; but because the unbelieving wife is sanctified in the husband , &c. because your marriage is a lawfull marriage , your children are legitimate . what strength of reason is in this ? if this had been their doubt or question , whether their marriage were not a nullitie ; the apostle by his apostolike authoritie , might have definitively answered , without giving a reason , your marriage is good , and your children legitimate . but if paul will goe about to satisfie them by reason , and prove them to be mistaken , it behoved him to give such a reason , which should have some weight in it , but this hath none . set their doubt ( as these men frame it ) and the apostles answer ( as these men interpret it ) together , and you will easily see the invalidity of it . wee doubt ( say the corinthians ) wee are not lawfull man and wife , and that therefore our children are bastards . no , saith paul , you are mistaken , and i prove it thus ; were you not lawfull man and wife , your children were bastards , but because you are lawfull man and wife , your children are not bastards . is there any argument or proofe in this ? as you frame your adversaries meaning , it may be thought ridiculous , but your mistakes must not be charged on them for their errour . all this passage of yours is built on this , that you make that the doubt which was not the doubt , to wit , whether their children were bastards , and make that the conclusion , which is the medium to prove the conclusion by ; for it was so far from being a doubt whether their children were bastards , that the apostle argues from this as an absurditie he knew they would not grant , and therefore supposed this to be without doubt with them , that their children were not bastards , but legitimate . and herein mr thomas goodwin spake rightly , that the apostle supposed it to be a received principle with them , though his paraphrase , but now are they holy , that is , you see your children baptized , is his owne comment , and that not onely a very bold , but absurd one , that i say no worse of it . and whereas you say , the apostle might by his apostolike authoritie , have definitively answered , 't is true , and so he did , as appeares from ver . . and yet he might give a reason ad homines , to the men , to convince them , which it may be , as you make it , is invalide , but rightly conceived , as the apostle framed it , is convincing and cogent . you say . fourthly , according to this their interpretation , the apostles answer could no way have reached to the quieting of their consciences ; their doubt was whether according to the example in ezra , they were not to put away their wives and children , as not belonging to god , as being a seed whom god would not owne among his people . now what kinde of quiet would this have given them , to tell them that their children were not bastards ? wee know the jewes did not put away their bastards , as not belonging to the covenant of god , pharez , and zarah , and jepthah , and innumerable others , though bastards , were circumcised , and not cut off from the people of god. all this argument is grounded on a mistake , as if the question were , whether they were to put away their wives and children , as not belonging to god , and that according to the example in ezra . whereas that is but a conjecture , that they had any relation in this matter to the action mentioned in ezra : and some other occasion is as likely , if not more likely , as hath been shewed , and it is certaine there were no doubts at all about the putting away of their children ; for the apostles argument proceeds upon this as a thing undoubted with them , that their children were not uncleane , but holy . what their doubt indeed was , and how the apostles answer fits it is shewed before . you goe on . and whereas some object out of deut. . . that bastards did not belong to the covenant among the jewes , because god there forbad a bastard to come into the congregation of the lord. i answer , that is meant onely of bearing office in the church , or some such like thing ; and not of being under the covenant belonging to the church ; as is manifest not onely by what hath been now said of jepthah , and others , who were circumcised , and offered sacrifices , and drew nigh to god , as well as any other , but the very text alledged gives sufficient light , that it cannot be meant otherwise , because in that place who ever is an eunuch or wounded in his stones , hath the same exclusion from the congregation of the lord , and i hope that none will dare to say , that none such are holy to the lord ; if they should , the scriptu●e is full enough against them ; that putting away in ezra was of an higher nature then illegitimation , and therefore it behooved the apostle to give another manner of satisfaction to their doubtfull consciences , then to tell them their children were not bastards : therefore i conclude , that this holinesse being the fruit of one of the parents being a believer , must be meant of some kinde of holinesse which is not common to the seed of them whose parents are both believers , and that is enough for our purpose . what others object i know not , the text , deut. . . was produced by mee in my papers in latin , above-mentioned , in these words , et quidni simili allusione ponatur 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pro spuriis , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pro legitimis , nam spurius inter impuros , deut. . . and why may not b● a like allusion , uncleane be put for bastards , and holy for legitimate ? for the bastard is put among the uncleane , deut. . . by which you may perceive , that i produced it not to prove , that basta●ds did not belong to the covenant among the jewe● , or were to be denied circumcision , or to be put away , and therefore in what respect they are to be excluded from the congregation of the lord , is not to my purpose materiall , but onely to shew , that bastards were reckoned among uncleane persons by the law ; which i thinke , you will not deny , sith you confesse they were excluded from bearing office in the church , or some such like thing ; and therefore the apostle might fi●ly by allusion put uncleane for bastards . against this there being nothing in your answer , nor any thing else , which hath not been replyed to before , i passe to the two objections you bring in against your interpretation . you say , yet there remain two objections to be answered , which are made against this our interpretation : first , the unbelieving w●●e is here said to be sanctified as well as the child is said to be holy ; and the originall word is the same for both , one the verb , the other the noune ; if then the childe is holy , with a federall holinesse , then is also the unbelieving wife sanctified with a f●derall sanctification ; and so the wife , although remaining a heath●n , may be counted to belong to the covenant of grace . i answer , indeed there would be weight in this objection , if the apostle had said , the unbelieving wife is sanctified , and no more , as he simply saith the children are holy ; but that he doth not say : he saith indeed , the unbelieving wife is sanctified in the believing husband ; or , to the believing husband , that is , to his use , as all other creatures are ; as the bed he lies on , the meat he eats , the clothes he wears , the beast he rides on , are sanctified to him ; and so this sanctifiednesse of the wife , is not a sanctification of state , but only of use , and of this use to be sanctified to the believing husband , whereas the holinesse and sanctification that is spoken of the children is a holinesse of state , and not only a sanctification to the parents use . these words in your margin [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the greek preposition , signifying to , as well as in , as gal. . . pet. . . acts . . cor. . . ] being the texts i produce in my latin paper , that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] may be translated [ to ] as well as [ by ] give me some occcasion to think that this objection is produced in reference to these words in my latin paper , where arguing against the rendring of [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by ] as if the faith of the wife were the cause of the sanctifying the unbelieving husband ; i say thus : nemo enim dixerit fidem uxoris sanctificare virum infidelem foederaliter , ita ut baptismi capax sit infidelis maritus propter fidem uxoris ( quod tamen pace tantorum virorum dictum sit , tam benè sequitur ex hoc loco , quam filium sanctum esse foederaliter , & baptismi capacem propter fidem parentis● ) for no man will say , the faith of the wife sanctifies the unbelieving husband federally , so that the unbelieving husband should be capable of baptisme for the faith of the wife ( which yet , with the leave of so great persons be it said , doth as well follow out of this place , as that the sonne is federally holy , and capable of baptisme for the faith of the parent ) . in which words , when i say , it follows out of this place , my meaning is , so translated and expounded as before ; that the unbelieving husband is sanctified by , that is , by the faith of the wife , as the child is holy , it would follow , that the unbelieving husband should be in the covenant as well as the child , and so be baptized : for the faith of the wife is said to sanctifie according to this reading and exposition , the one as well as the other . and so much i conceive you acknowledge , in saying in this objection , there would be weight if the apostle had said the unbelieving wife is sanctified and no more . but this only i put in by a parenthesis , as not building the main of the interpretation i gave on it , knowing that beza renders it [ in uxore , in the wife ] and then the objection hath no place . and seeing you do render [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] in , or to , and expound the sanctification to the believers use , as all other creatures are . i confesse , against you that objection is not in force , and therefore your answer may be acknoweldged right in this particular . i passe to the second objection . that holinesse of the children is here meant , which could not be unlesse one of the parents were sanctified to the other ; which is the force of the apostles arguing , the unbeliever is sanctified to the believer , else were not the children holy , but unclean ; but federall holinesse of children may be where parents are not sanctified , one in , or to the other : as in bastardy . davids childe by bathsheba , pharez and zarah judah's children by thamar , the israelites children by the concubines , abrahams son ishmael by hagar , &c. in which case the children were federally holy , and accordingly were circumcised , and yet the harlot not sanctified , in , or to the adulterer , or fornicator , though a believer . this objection i own , having first proved that the santification of the unbeliever , is meant of lawfull conjugall copulation , only where you say , the unbeliever is sanctified to the believer , i would say as the apostle doth , to the wife or husband . now to this objection you say , " i answer , but i pray you tell me where you answer it , i finde no answer to it here , except it be an answer to an argument to deny the conclusion . in the argument you neither shew faultinesse in the form nor matter , which was the way of answering i learned in the schools where i was bred . you say , we must attend the apostles scope : true , but when we are to answer , we must attend to the objection , and shew the weaknesse of it . you say , which is to shew , that the children would be unholy if the faith , or believership of one of the parents , could not remove the barre which lies in the other , being an unbeliever , against the producing of an holy seed , because one of them was a pagan or unbeliever , therefore the childe could not be a holy seed , unlesse the faith or believership of the other parent could remove this barre . you made the scope at first right , to resolve them whether they might lawfully retain their infidell wives or husbands ; but the scope you now give , is but a meer figment , not the apostles . you say , now this can have no place of an argument in any case where one of the parents is not an infidel . i know not what you mean in this passage , unlesse it be you would answer thus ; the apostles scope is otherwise then the objector takes it , therefore he can make no argument , nor objection , and so i need not make any answer , which is a kinde of answering i am not acquainted with . you go on : but this was not the case amongst the jews , hagar and thamar , and the concubines , however sinfull in those acts , yet themselves were believers , belonging to the covenant of god , and that barre lay not against their children , as it did in the unbelieving wife . this passage is indeed a grant of the minor in the objection , that children may be federally holy , where the one parent is not sanctified to the other ; and that the major is true , which rests on this , that the children could not be holy , unlesse one parent were sanctified to the other , you will not deny it ; you do your self frame the force of the apostles reason thus ; both pag. . when you say , were it with them , as when both of them were unbelievers their children would be an unclean progeny : and pag. . when you say , the apostles answer had not been true , because then , if one of the parents had not been sanctified to his unbelieving wife , their children must have been bastards . in these and other passages , you acknowledge the force of the apostles reason , to consist in this : that holinesse of the children is here meant , which could not be , unlesse one of the parents were sanctified to the other ; wherefore the conclusion stands good , that the holinesse here is not federall holinesse . but you adde , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a wise remedy . indeed , if a believing man or woman should adulterously beget a child , upon a pagan or heathen , or unbeliever , there this objection deserves to be further weighed , but here it comes not within the comp●sse of the apostles argument . this is just nihil ad rhombum , nothing to the point ; as if you had said , i will not answer the objection which is made , but if you make it thus or thus , i will answer it ; and thus i have at last gotten your chief hold , which you had best manned , but in the close you quitted it . you adde as over-measure , certain reasons : . from gods will , which were enough , if you could prove it . . from gods honour , in which you say , so i● i● with the lord , he having left all the rest of the world to be visibly the devils kingdome , will not for his own glories sake permit the devill to come and lay visible claim to the sons and daughters begotten by those who are the children of the most high ; which speech , if true , well fare cain and cham , and ismael and esau , and innumerable others , whom the devill hath had visible claime to by their works and profession . . for the comfort and duty of these who are in covenant with him . indeed it were a very great comfort , if you could make it good which you say ; but we must be content with that comfort god is pleased to give , and not for our comfort speak that of god which is not true . you say , you have been the larger upon those two first conclusions , because indeed , the proving of these gains the whole cause , and so i have been the larger in answering , as conceiving by loosing these you loose the cause . you say , the most learned of the anabaptists do professe , that if they knew a child to be holy , they would baptize it . it is likely they that said , or professed so , did declare in what sense , and for what reason they so spake . but because these are but rhetoricall passages , i leave them , and passe to your third conclusion , which you ●hus expresse . the lord hath appointed and ordained a sacrament or seal of initiation , to be administred unto them , who enter into covenant with him ; circumcision for the time of that administration which was before christs incarnation , ba●tisme since the time of his incarnation . th● conclusion , as you here set it down , may be granted , that the lord hath appointed and 〈…〉 a sacrament or seal of initiation , to be administred to them that enter into covenant with him , circumcision for the time of that administration , which was before christs incarnation , baptisme since the time of his incarnation . but this is not all you would have granted ; for it would stand you in no stead , and therefore , in stead of it , pag. . in the repetition , you put this conclusion for your third ; that our baptisme succeeds in the room and use of their circumcision ; and your meaning is , that it so succeeds , that the command of circumcising infants should be virtually a command to baptize infants , as you expresse your self , pag. . now this i deny . that which you alledge for this is , first , the agreement that is between cicumcision and baptisme : secondly , the text , col. . , , , , . i shall examine both , and consider whether they fit your purpose . you confesse they differ in the outward elements , and that is enough to shew that the command for the one , is not a command for the other , except the holy ghost do so interpret it . but you say , they agree in five or six particulars . the first , that they are both of them the same sacrament for the spirituall part ; which is to be granted , but with its due allowance : for , though baptisme signifie in part the same thing that circumcision did ; namely , sanctification by the spirit , justification and salvation by jesus christ , and faith in him ; yet it is true that there is a vast difference betwixt them , because circumcision signified these things as to be from christ to come , and therefore it was a sign of the promise of christ to come from isaac ; but baptisme signifies these things in the name of christ already manifested in the flesh , crucified , buried , and risen again . and because circumcision did signifie christ to come out of isaac , therefore it did also confirm all the promises that were made to abrahams naturall posterity , concerning their multiplying , their bringing out of egypt , their settling in the land of canaan , and the yoak of the law of moses , which was to be in force till faith came , that is , till christ was manifested in the flesh , gal. . . , , . gal. . , . the second agreement you make , is that both are appointed to be distinguishing signes betwixt gods people and the devils people . this must be also warily understood ; for though it be true they are both d●stinguishing signes , yet not so , but that they may be gods people , who were not circumcised , nor are baptized . god had a people in jobs and lots families , who were not circumcised , nor to be circumcised ; and there may be a people of god , wh●●re not bapti●ed , as the thief on the crosse , the catechumeni dying a●o●e baptisme , many martyrs , and others , that have dyed without baptisme . and in the signes themselves there is a great difference , both in the acting of them ; the one of them was with blood , the other without ; the one took away a part of the body , the other not : and after the acting , the one was a permanent signe , the other left no impression or footsteps of it that did remain . the third agreement is , both of them the way and means of solemn entrance and admission into the church , which may be granted ; yet in the solemnity there was a great difference : the one to be done in a private house , by a private person , the other openly by the minister thereto appointed . the fourth agreement is , both of them to be administred but once , which i conceive true thus ; to wit , that there is no necessity of administring either of them above once ; but a demonstrative argument to prove it an heresie , or unlawfull in it self to rebaptize , i yet expect . yet this parity hath its disparity : for baptisme is not restrained to any set day , but circumcision was limited to the eighth day in its institution . your fifth , and none might be received into the communion of the church of the jewes , untill they were circumcised , nor into the communion of the church of the christians , untill they be baptized . if you mean by communion to be accounted members of the church of the jews , i cannot assent unto you : for not only the children were accounted in that church who were not eight dayes old , but also all the uncircumcised in the time of the travell through the wildernesse , untill they cam● to gilgal , and all the females were members , though they were not to be circumcised . the reason was , because god would have all within that church that were within the families of israel ; and therefore he would have the servants born in the house , and that were bought with money of any stranger that were not of abrahams seed , circumcised . and if you mean by the communion of the church of christians , the accounting of them as visible members , it is not true that none might be received into the communion of the church of the christians untill they be baptized , unlesse you will with bellarmine deny the catechumeni to be actuall members of the church , and oppose whitaker , and others of the protestant divines herein . the last agreement is , that none but the circumcised might eat of the pasch●● l●mbe , which is true of those that ought to be circumcised , but it ●s not true simply taken : for the females were to eat , though not circumcised . on the other side you say , none may but those who are baptized be admitted to eat the lords supper . this you affirm , but you bring no other proof for it , but the analogie conceived by you between circumcision and the passeover , and baptisme and the lord● supper , which can make but a topick argument , and that à simili , which i● of all other the weakest place to prove by , proportions are weak probation , saith r●●therfu●d , due right of presbyteries , ch. . sect. . p. . 't is true , we find persons ordinarily upon their fi●st call were baptized , and then after received the lords supper ; and it is true , that cor. . , , . and cor. . . baptizing is put before eating and drinking , and therefore thers is ground enough for ordering it so ; yet i make question , whether , if a person that professeth the faith of christ sincerely , and is not yet baptized , suppose for want of a minister , or out of scruple , at the way of baptizing only allowed , or because the custome is not to baptize but at easter or whitsuntide , as it was of old , or the like reason , should come to a congregation of christians receiving the lords supper , and there receive it with love to christ , whether he should sin , because not baptized , as the jews should sin , that did eat the passeover not circumcised : for in the jewes case a command is broken , not here , and so no transgression . if he come without examination of himself , not discerning the lords body , he sins , he breaks the command , cor. . . but where is the command that he must be baptized first ? and for the same reason , i question , whether a minister can justifi● it before god , if he reject such a christian from the lords supper , because not baptized , for the aforesaid reasons . by this which i have said , you may perceive how uncertain your agreements are , and how many disagreements there are between circumcision and baptisme ; and therefore how poor a proof , or rather none at all may be drawn from the supposed agreements you make between circumcision and baptisme , for the making a command to circumcise infants , a command to baptize infants , without the holy ghost declaring gods minde to be so . all these agreements ; y●a , if there were an h●ndr●d more , cannot make it any other than an humane invention , if the holy ghost do not shew that they agree in this particular . but to make the weaknesse of this argument the more apparent , let me parallel the priests of the law , with the ministers of the gospel , as you do circumcision with baptisme . as god appointed aerg●s and his sons to minis●e● in the time of the law , so the ministery of the gospel now ; the apostle makes the analogy expresly , cor. . , . and far more plainly then the text you bring for the succession of baptisme to circumcision , and they agree in many things : as the priests lips should preserve knowledge , mat. . . deut. . . so must the bishop be apt to teach , tim. . . as the priest by offering the sacrifices held forth christ to them , heb. . so the minister by preaching , gal. . . as the priest was for the people of god , so the minister of the gospel : as the high priest was to have the people on his breast , so the minister in his heart ; as the one was to blesse , so the other was to pray for them : as the priest had a consecration , so the minister is to have an ordination : as none was to thrust himself into the one without a calling ; so neither in the other : and many more such agreements might be assigned ; will it therefore follow , that a command to a priest to offer a sacrifice propitiatory , is a command to a minister to offer a sacrifice propitiatory , or a command for a priest to wear a linen ephod , should be a command to a minister to wear a surplice , as the papists do just in your manner argue from analogy or resemblance ; or , that therefore tythes are due to ministers , jure divino , by divine appointment , as bishop carleton , dr. sclater , and others , from analogy of melchisedecs and aarons priesthood would infer : or that ordination may be by the people ; because the children of israel laid hands on the levites , as mr. mather in answer to mr. herle ; or that there must be an imparity in the clergy , and so bishops above presbyters , as the prelates , bilson , daven●nt , d●terminat , quest. . and others were wont to argue ; or that a doctor in divinity may be a justice of peace , because eli and samuel were judges , as the prelaticall doctors ; or that there must be a pope , because there was an high priest , as bellarmine and the papists . if the consequence be not good in the one , neither is it in the other . you say in the next words , that the lords supper succeeds in the room of the passeover . this , i confesse , goes current , but the scripture doth not say so , that i know . the scripture expresly saith , that christ our passeover was sacrificed for us , cor. . . it i● true , the lords supper was appointed after the paschal supper , but it is but our collection , that thereby the lord would make an end of the passeover , and substitute the other in its room . in other places we rather finde the lords supper to answer the manna , and the rock , or water out of the rock in the wildernesse , cor. . , . it is true , the apostle , cor. . , . argues from the eating of the sacrifices to the eating of the lords supper . but that was not only from the passeover , but from the rest of the peace-offerings as well as it ; yea , from the heathens feasts upon their sacrifices . it is true , cor. . . we are required to keep the feast , and the allusion is to the paschal supper ; but whether the keeping the feast be meant of the lords supper , or as beza paraphraseth it , totam vitam in justitia & integritate consumamus , let us spend our whole life in justice and integrity , or something else , sub judice lis est , is a controversie undetermined . but let it be granted , that the lords supper imitates ( i will not say succeeds into the room of the jewish passeover , for that was a sacrifice , and christ offered , is only in stead of it ) the paschal supper , which because of the time , and the form of words used in the institution , and such like circumstances , is very probable , and therefore there is great analogy between them ; yet he that should argue , therefore we must receive the lords supper with unleavened bread , as the papists ; or that the bread and wine must be first consecrated on an altar , as was the paschal lamb ; or that the lords supper is not to be administred but in a church , gathered after the church-way , as the elders of new-england , in answer to the nine positions ; or that we must keep an easter , and then have the lords supper , as in ancient and later times hath been conceived , you would reject these things as ill gathered , and perhaps call them superstitious . but whether these , and more like to them , do not as well follow , as baptizing of infants , from circumcision of infants , because of their analogy , i leave to your self to consider . you adde , and this our lord himself taught us by his own example , who was circumcised as a professed member of the church of the jews , and when he set up the new christian church , he would be initiated into it by the sacrament of baptisme . it is confessed , that christ was circumcised and baptized , but that it was to teach us by his example , either your conclusion , or the agreements between baptisme and circumcision which you set down , or that which next goes before your speech , the succession of the lords supper to the passeover , remains yet to be proved , much more that which you drive at , that there is such a parity , or rather identity between baptisme and circumcision , that the command to circumcise infants , is a command to baptize infants . the circumcision of christ was undoubtedly as his presenting in the temple , and the offering for him to accomplish the law , under which it pleased him to be made of a woman , gal. . , . and it had a spirituall use to assure our circumcision in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh , col. . . this is certain , we have cleare scripture for it ; if you shall shew the like scriptures for the inferences you make from christs circumcision , i shall imbrace them with both arms . the baptisme of christ was that christ might fulfill all righteousnesse , mat. . . but how to expound this speech , hath not a little difficulty . various conjectures there are about the meaning of it : this seems to me most likely , that righteousnesse is there taken for that which was appointed by god , either in secret instructions , or some particular prophecy from god. but then if it be asked why god did appoint it , this seems most likely , sith it is plain that this was the time of christs anointing with the spirit , as appears , luke . . that baptisme was used to signifie his anointing by the spirit for his great function he was then to enter on , which me thinks , the story it self , and the speech of peter , acts . , . do evince . that which you say , that being to set up the new christian church , he would be initiated into it by the sacrament of baptisme , seems not probable ; partly , because christ did not set up in his own dayes on earth a visible church , discipline and worship distinct from the jewish ; partly , because his baptisme was of a far higher nature then our baptisme , who was anointed with the oyl of gladnesse above his fellows , heb. . . and therefore his baptisme was of a transcendent nature above ours . but if it were granted that christs baptisme were to teach us , that he that is a member of the church , must be initiated by baptisme , it will rather disadvantage your cause then advantage it , sith christ , who was the holy one of god , and the angel of the covenant , and the seed of abraham , in whom all the nations of the earth should be blessed , to whom the promises were made , in whom the covenant was confirmed , gal. . , . yet was not baptized , till he began to be about thirty yeers of age , luke . . so that you see how little help you have from your parities , or christs example to prove a like reason of circumcising and baptizing infants . but you have yet another string to your bow , out of col. . , . i will follow you to try the strength of that also . you say , of this conclusion , there i● no great doubt ▪ but bec●use some of the anabaptists do deny the s●crament of baptisme to succeed into the room , place , and use of circumcision , be pleased to observe how plain the apostle makes it , col. . , , , , . it is necessary that i should first consider in what sense your position is to be taken , before i examine your proof for it . the thing that you say the apostle makes plain , is that the sacrament of baptisme doth succeed in the room , place , and use of circumcision : succession properly notes a coming after another , as we say , kings succeed one another , high priests one after another . to speak exactly , baptisme ( i do not say the sacrament of baptisme ) was a concomitant of circumcision , if not ancienter ; for it is well known , that baptisme was in use among the jews , in the initiating of proselytes for many yeers together with circumcision , as may be seen in selden , de jure naturali , & gentium juxta discipl . heb. lib. . cap. , , . ainsworth annot. on gen. . there is much of this in many authors beside . but i suppose you cannot be ignorant of what mr. lightfoot hath in his sermon , entituled elias redivivus , pag. . where he makes it as ancient as jacob. gratius annot. in mat. . . hath these words : cum verò peregrini abluti & non circumcisi solis legibus tenerentur , quos deus toti hominum generi dederat , intellectu facile est ablutionem hanc fuisse inter vetera instituta orta , ut arbitror , post magnum diluvium in memoriam purgati mundi : unde illud celebre apud graecos , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , certe baptismum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 esse diluvio etiam in petri epistola legimus . but it may be the sacrament of baptisme came after ; neither is that in exactnesse of speech true , sith circumcision was a great while in force after john began to baptize , which you will not deny to be the same sacrament with ours . but let it be granted it succeeds , that is , comes after circumcision , sith it continues now circumcision is taken away , yet the sense in which you can rightly make it succeed into the room , place , and use of circumcision , will be brought into a narrow room , too strait to settle baptisme of infants in it . room and place are properly either the same , or differ only as locus communis & proprius , common place and proper ; so baptisme , which is an action , hath no place or room properly . if you mean by the room and place , the subjects to be baptized , or baptizing , it is not true , except in part ; some of the baptized and baptizers only were circumcised , and to be circumcised ; some that were not to be circumcised , as women , were to be baptized . if you mean by the room and place the society into which both persons were to be initiated , it is not true : for by the sacrament of baptisme , persons were to be baptized into the christian church , by circumcision into the jewish , as your own conclusion saith . if you mean it of the commandment upon which both are seated , neither is that true : the commandement of circumcision was many age● before baptisme was instituted as a sacrament . and for the succession into the use of circumcision , that is yet more untrue . your self say a few lines after . the use of circumcision engaged men to the use of the rest of the jewish ceremonies . and page . it is true indeed , that circumcision bound them who received it , to conf●rm to that manner of administration of the covenant , &c. and if you had not confessed it , it might have been proved out of gal. . , . acts . . from the custome in circumcising proselytes , to bind them to the lawes , not only common to all the noachidae , but also to all the laws of the jews , as selden , ubi supra , ainsworth on gen. . but i hope you will not dare to say , that baptisme succeeds circumcision in this use , if it do , then are we still bound to keep the law of moses . another use of circumcision , was to signifie christ to come out of abrahams family , i think you will not deny it ; if you should , i might plead against you , col. . . gal. . , &c. the institution of it to be in the males only of abrahams family , by whom the genealogy was to be reckoned , in the member for generation , the expressions of the covenant confirmed by it , and the consent of innumerable learned men , both of the jewes and christians : and i think you will not say , baptisme succeeds into this use of circumcision : another use of it was to be a partition wall between the jews and gentiles , to distinguish and divide them , whence the one were counted unclean , as uncircumcised , the other clean , eph. . . . but you will not say , that baptisme succeeds into this use , sith the use of baptisme is to the contra●y , gal. . , , . and surely these were the main uses of it . but you will say , there was use of circumcision for initiation into the church of the jews , and so of baptisme . but then , though baptisme do initiate as circumcision , yet not into the same church : for circumcision did not initiate into any church , but into the church of the jews , or rather into the family of abraham ; but so doth not baptisme . if it be said , that the one confirms the covenant , and so doth the other ; still i answer , that baptisme doth not confirm the same covenant in every part that circumcision did : for the covenant was a mixt covenant , a great part whereof baptisme doth not confirm . this is all that can be said , that they agree in that , as circumcision did confirm the spirituall part of the covenant , to wit , righteousnesse by faith , rom. . . and signified holinesse of heart ; so doth also baptisme , the like whereof did the cloud , sea , manna , the water out of the rock , cor. . , , . the deluge or ark , pet. . . the sprinkling of the blood of the sacrifices ; and the same are confirmed by the lords supper ; and why then should we not say , that baptisme succeeds the flood , sprinkling of blood , as well as circumcision ; and that the lords supper succeeds circumcision as well as baptisme ? wherefore i conceive your proposition so generally delivered , that the sacrament of baptisme succeeds into the room , place , and use of circumcision , erroneous and very dangerous . but how ever you think , the thing is plainly delivered , col. . , , , , . let us examine that text then . you say thus : where the apostles scope is to disswade the believing christians from the rudiments of the world , and jewish ceremonies and observations upon this ground , that we are compleat in christ , and that in him , as in the head , the church hath all perfections . all this is very right , and the thing very well expressed by beza , addendum fuit istud ut non tantum sibi , & in sese , sed in nostrum etiam usum statuatur christus esse talis & tantus , ut nihil in ipso desideretur , & in eo uno omnia nanciscamur ad veram , & salvificam dei notitiam requisita : co●plementum igitur in christo adeptis quorsum vel humana sapientia , vel vanis hominum commentis , vel ceremoniis , ullo denique extra christum ascito sit opus ? annot. in col. . . where mark that beza rightly makes us so compleat in christ , that there is no need of any thing added out of christ in stead of those ceremonies . you go on ; and because he would take them wholly off from circumcision , the use whereof engaged them to the use of the rest of jewish ceremonies ; he tells them that in christ we are circumcised with circumcision made without hands , a better circumcision then the jews was , in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh , by the circumcision of christ. you say rightly : first , that the apostle would take them off wholly from circumcision , therefore not teach them that they had another ordinance in stead of it , by vertue of that command : secondly , that the use of circumcision , ingaged them to the use of the rest of the jewish ceremonies , and therefore that baptisme succeeds not in the use of circumcision : thirdly , in christ we are circumcised with a circumcision made without hands , a better circumcision then the jews was , in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh , by the circumcision of christ , and therefore we have circumcision not in another ordinance , but in christ and his circumcision . you go on ; and whereas the jewish teachers would be ready to object , that the receiving of the inward grace of circumcision , did not make them so compleat as abraham , and his seed was , because they also had an outward sensible signe whereby they might be further perswaded , comforted and confirmed . this is but a conceit that either the jews were ready thus to object , or the apostle intended to answer such an objection . the intent of the apostle is to declare in what way and manner , and by what means they became compleat in christ , to wit , baptisme and faith , whereby they had communion with christ , and so were compleat in him . but you say , to this he answers , vers . . that neither is this priviledge wanting to christians who have as excellent and expresse a sacrament of it , being buried with christ in baptisme ; the effect whereof he there sets down , and therefore they needed not circumcision as their false teachers insinuated , thereby directly teaching that our baptisme is in stead of their circumcision . it is true , the apostle teacheth them that they needed not circumcision , but not because they had baptisme in lieu of it , but because all was in christ now , who hath abolished all these rites , or taken them away quite , vers . . as being but shadows of good things to come , and the body is of christ , vers . . in whom , and in that which befell him all was accomplished . and aretius therefore in his comment on colos. . saith rightly in this ; not a rem ipsam vindicari sanctis sine externo symbolo ; quod tamen indesinenter urgebant advers●rii ; s●c rom. . . & phil. . . atque hoc beneficium in christo habemus : est igitur perfectum organum salutis , note that the thing it self is asserted to the saints without an outward symbole , which yet the adversaries incessantly urged : so rom. . . and phil. . . and this benefit we have in christ , he is therefore a perfect organ of salvation ; so that it is utterly against the apostles scope and whole argument to say , that therefore they needed not circumcision , because they had another ordinance in the room of it . for the apostles intent is plain , to shew , that christ is in stead of circumcision , and all the rest of the jewish ceremonies . and the truth is by this doctrine , that baptisme is in stead of circumcision , the apostles argument for the disanulling the jewish ceremonies , both here , and hebr. . & . . & . in the epistle to the galatians , chap. . & . and ephes. . is quite evacuated , who still useth this argument to prove the abolition of the ceremonies of the law , because they have their complement in christ , not in some new ordinance added in stead of them ; for if there be need of other ordinances ( besides christ ) in stead of the old , then christ hath not in himself fulnesse enough to supply the want of them , and this abolition is not because of christs fulnesse , but other ordinances that come in stead of the abolished . and indeed , baptisme and the lords supper , though they be ordinances of christ that may imitate or resemble the ordinances of the jews , yet it cannot be said they succeed into the roome , place , or use of them : for christ only , and that which he did , doth so succeed : so that if things be well weighed , this text is against your position , not for it , and so your ordinance is turned against you . you go on ; and the analogy lies between two sacramentall types of the same substance [ regeneration ] to both jews and gentiles . i deny not but that there is analogy between circumcision and baptisme , and so there is between the deluge and noahs ark , or deliverance from the deluge and baptisme , pet. . . they do resemble each other in some things . but we are not to conclude thence , that baptisme succeeds into the roome , place , and use of noahs ark , or that therfore we are to baptize married persons only , because in noahs ark only married persons were saved : for in the administration of an ordinance , we are not to be ruled by bare analogy , either framed by us , or delivered by the spirit of god , but the institution of god. but the truth is , in this place , col. . , . the apostle rather resembles buriall to circumcision , then baptisme , and so makes the analogy not between circumcision and baptisme , but circumcision and christs buriall . and so chrysostome on the place , and after him theophylact , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and what he calls circumcision , he again calls buriall . you proceed thus : and in truth , had not baptisme come in the roome of it , the apostle could not have pitched upon a worse instance then circumcision , which was so much valued by them , and was so great and usefull a priviledge to them . it is true , circumcision was a great and usefull priviledge to them , in that estate they were before christs incarnation , in comparison of heathens , who had not a school-master to bring them to christ , yet absolutely it was a burthen and heavie yoak , act. . . . and it would be a burthen , not a priviledge , for us to have an ordinance in the roome , place , and use of it , now christ is come , in whom we are compleat . and it is true , the apostle pitched on circumcision , vers . . because the jews much valued it , but not to shew , as you say , that baptisme is in the roome , pl●ce , and use of it , but to shew , that in christ we have circumcision , and are compleat in him . you close up this conclusion thus : nor had there been any reason to have here named baptisme , but that he meant to shew baptisme to christians was now in the roome of circumcision to the jewes . this is said with more confidence , then truth : for another reason is plain from the context ; that therefore baptisme is named , because it is one of the means by which christians come to have communion with christ , and to be compleat in him , which was the thing the apostle intended in the th verse , and therefore he joynes faith with baptisme , they being the two speciall means whereby we come to have communion with christ , and to be compleat in him . and this is further confirmed by comparing this with other scriptures : gal. . , , . the apostle speaks thus : but after faith is come , we are no longer under a schoolmaster , meaning circumcision , &c. for we are all the children of god by faith in christ jesus : for as many of you as have been baptized into christ , have put on christ ; which text is apparently answerable to col. . , , , , . and again , rom. . , , . know you not that so many of us as were baptized into jesus christ , were baptized into his death ? therefore are we buried with him , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by baptisme into death , that like as christ was raised up from the dead , by the glory of the father , even so we also should walk in newnesse of life : for if we have been planted together in the likenesse of his death , we shall be also in the likenesse of his resurrection . in which places you may easily perceive , that by putting on christ , we come to be exempted from the schoolmaster , that is , the law , and so from circumcision ; that being planted into christ , we walk in newnesse of life , that is , as rom. . . that now we are delivered from the law , that being dead wherein we were held , that we should serve in newnesse of spirit , and not in the oldnesse of the letter ; and that the means hereof , is by baptisme by which we put on christ , and are baptized into his death , and by faith , whereby we are no longer children under age , but sons come to their inheritance . thus have i at last , waded through your third conclusion , and the text , col. . , . the misunderstanding of which hath been the ignis fatuus , foolish fire , which hath led men out of the way in this matter into bogs . your fourth conclusion followes ; that by gods own expresse order , infants as well as grown men were in the time of the jews to be initiated and sealed with the signe of circumcision , whether jews by nature , or proselytes of the gentiles , one law was for them all ; if they receive th● covenant , they and their children were circumcised . it is true , this was gods expresse order , and it is as certain that this expresse order of god is now revoked , or repealed , acts . . . . gal. . , , . as belonging to that administration , which was before christ came . that which you adde of the females virtuall circumcision in the males , hath been examined before . i passe on to that which followes : and whereas some , who see which way the strength of this conclusion tendeth , do alledge , that though circumcision was to be applyed to their infants , yet it was not as a seal of the spirituall part of the covenant of grace , but as a nationall badge , a seal of some temporall and earthly blessings and priviledges , as of their right to the land of canaan , &c. and that ishmael , though he was circum●ised for some temporall respects , yet he was not thereby brought under the covenant of grace , which was expresly said to be made with abraham , in relation to isaac and his seed . they that thus object , speak that which is truth , only whereas you make the objectors say , that it was not a seal of the spirituall part of the covenant of grace , i would say , to all that were circumcised ; and when you say , but as a nationall badge , &c. that ishmael was circumcised for some temporall respects , i would leave out those words , and say , because god commanded it . thus did i expresse my self in my latin paper , affirming , that not right to euangelicall promises , i now adde , nor right to any other benefit by the covenant made with abraham , was the proper and adequate reason , why these , or those were circumcised , but gods precept : for as much as persons were to be circumcised , who had no right , either to the euangelicall promises , or any other in that covenant which was confirmed by circumcision ; and i named ishmael , concerning whom , though god heard abraham in giving him some blessing upon abrahams prayer , when he understood the promise was not intended for ishmael , but to isaac , gen. . , . yet he expresly added his determination to hold , vers . . that he would establish his covenant with isaac , not with ishmael : and on the other side , all the females in the covenant were uncircumcised , though some of them had right to all the promises in the covenant ; and the text expresly makes the reason of what abraham did to be gods appointment , v. . and no other . wherefore those that say , that circumcision did not seal the spirituall part of the covenant of grace to all , and that ishmael was not by circumcision brought under the covenant of grace , say no more , then what the apostle saith , rom. . , , . gal. . , . and your self , pag. . where you say , only true believers are made partakers of the spirituall part of the covenant . now the end of this objection , is to prove that it followes not , because a person was appointed to be circumcised , therefore he was within the covenant of grace , or that because persons were within the covenant of grace , therefore they were to be circumcised . let us now see what you answer to this . you say , i answer there is nothing plainer , then that the covenant , whereof circumcision was a signe , was the covenant of grace . it is granted , that the covenant made with abraham , gen. . was the covenant of grace , though not a pure covenant , but a mixt covenant . but what then ? doth it follow , that every one that was circumcised , was in the covenant of grace ? it is true , the sacrifices did confirm the covenant in christs blood ; but it doth not follow , that all that did offer sacrifices were partakers of the covenant . the like may be said of baptisme , the lords supper , manna , &c. which they that did partake of , yet were not all of them in the covenant , as the apostle shews , cor. . . heb. . , . it is one thing to be under the outward administration , another thing to be in the covenant of grace . this is proper only to elect persons , the other is common to elect and reprobate , and depends meerly on gods appointment without any other consideration . you go on , abraham received circumcision , a signe of the righteousnesse of faith : very true , and the apostle expoundeth this , when he saith , which he had , yet being uncircumcised , that he might be the father of all them that believe , though they be not circumcised , that righteousnesse might be imputed to them also , rom. . . so that the apostle makes circumcision a seal of righteousnesse , but not to all , or only circumcised persons , but to all believers , whether jews or gentiles ; so that according to the apostles doctrine , circumcision , in as much as it sealed to abraham the righteousnesse of faith , which he had , being yet uncircumcised , i● a seal to the gentiles that believe of the righteousnesse of faith , though they be never circumcised . so that it is so far from being true , that persons have the promise , therefore they must have the seal in their persons ; that it followes , persons have the promise , therefore they have the seal in abraham , though they never are , nor may be sealed in their own persons . you go on , and the jewes received it not as a nation , but as a church , as a people separated from the world , and taken into covenant with god. if you take [ as ] with reduplication , it is true , that neither the jewes received circumcision as a nation , for then every nation should receive it , nor as a church or people separated from the world , and taken into covenant with god , for then every church or people separated from the world , and taken into covenant with god should receive circumcision , which is false , but they received it as appointed them from god , under this formall reason , and no other . but what is all this to the answering the objection , that it was not the seal of the spirituall part of the covenant of grace to all circumcised persons , and that circumcision was appointed to persons not under the covenant of grace , and that the reason why persons were circumcised , was not because they were under the covenant of grace , but only gods appointment ? but you yet adde , it is true indeed that circumcision bound them who received it to conform to that manner of administration of the covenant which was carried much by a way of temporall blessings and punishments , they being types of spirituall things . it is right which you grant , that circumcision bound them who received it to conform to that manner of administration of the covenant , but then it is to be considered , that circumcision was a part of this administration ; and that though temporall blessings , as of the land of canaan , and rest in it , were shadows of the rest of gods people , and so in a sort of administrations of the covenant of grace , yet they were also part of the things promised in the covenant made to abraham ; and when you say , circumcision bound them who received it , to conform to that manner of administration of the covenant which was carried much by a way of temporall blessings and punishments ; it is hard to shew in what sense they were bound to conform to temporall blessings and punishments : they were bound to conform to the sacrifices and offerings , and washings , &c. for these were their acts to be done by them , but how they were bound to conform to the administration by temporall blessings and punishments , it is hard to understand , sith they were gods acts , not theirs . you adde , but no man can ever shew , that any were to receive the sacrament of circumcision , in relation to those outward things only , or to them at all , further then they were administrations of the covenant of grace . the truth is , no man was to receive the sacrament of circumcision in relation to these outward things only , or to them at all , either as they were temporall blessings or types of spirituall things , and so , as you speak , administrations of the covenant of grace , but in this respect only , and for this reason , and no other , because god had so commanded ; though i deny not circumcised persons were by faith to look on the covenant of grace through these administrations , yet the reason of being circumcised was barely gods command ; so that if you abstract gods command , notwithstanding the covenant , or any other administration of it , they were not to be circumcised : you go on : sure i am , the proselytes and their children could not be circumcised in any relation at all to the temporall blessings of the land of canaan , as they were temporall , because notwithstanding their circumcision , they were not capable of receiving or purchasing any inheritance at all in the land , sojourne they might as other strangers also did , but the inheritance of the land , no not one foot of it could ever be alienated from the severall tribes to whom it was distributed , as their possession by the most high : for all the land was divided into twelve tribes , and they were not any one of them allowed to sell their lands , longer then till the yeer of jubilee , lev. . v. . &c. yea , i m●y boldly s●y , that their circumcision was so far from sealing to them the outward good things of the land , that it occasioned and tyed them to a greater expence of their temporall blessings , by their long and frequent and chargeable journyes to worship at jerusalem : this which you say may be granted , and the thing which you would prove by it , that they which received circumcision , did not receive it in relation only to these outward things , yet this overthrows not this proposition , that the covenant made with abraham had promises of temporall blessings , and that some were to be circumcised , who had no part in the covenant of grace . you adde : and as for what was alledged concerning ishmael , the answer is easie ; god indeed there declares , that isaac should be the type of christ , and that the covenant of grace should be established , and continue in his family , yet both ishmael and the rest of abrahams family were really taken into covenant untill afterwards by apostasie they discovenanted themselves , as also did esau afterwards , though he were the son of isaac , in whose family god had promised the covenant should continue . when you say , that ishmael was really taken into the covenant , meaning , of grace , mentioned in a few words before , you oppose both the apostle , rom. . , . gal. . , . as i have shewed before , and gods own speech , gen. . , . to which i may adde , that isaac and jacob only are said to be coheirs with abraham of the same promise , heb. . . and when you say , that he and esau were discovenanted by apostasie : you plainly deliver apostasie from the covenant of grace , which i will not call in you arminianisme , but in others it would , and that justly be so censured . but you will say , you mean that ishmael and esau were abrahams seed by profession , and outward cleaving to the covenant , as you speak , pag. . but this is not to be taken into the covenant of grace really , as you speak ; for taking really into the covenant of grace , is gods act , either of election ▪ or promise , or some act executing either of these ; but profession and outward cleaving to the covenant is mans act ; and therefore , how to salve your speech i know not . as for the objection , i see not that you have answered it , but that still it stands good , that persons were to be circumcised , who were not in the covenant of grace , that ishmael was appointed to be circumcised , though it were declared gods covenant did not belong to him ; and therefore the reason of circumcising persons , was not the covenant of grace , but only the will and command of god to have it so . your fifth conclusion followes . fifthly , and lastly , the priviledges of believers under this last and best administration of the covenant of grace , are many wayes inlarged , made more honourable and comfortable then ever they were in the time of the jews administration . this conclusion , with its explication and application , have all their vigour in ambiguity of speech ; as the strength of the coney is in its burrow ; which , that i may uncover , i must distinctly declare , what is to be held in this matter , and then examine what you say . priviledge is a law term , the etymologie is , privilegium quasi priva lex , quia veteres priva dixerunt , quae nos singula dicimus : priviledge , as it were a private law , because the ancients called those things private , which we call singular , gel. noct . attic. lib. . cap. . joh. calvinus wett . in his lexicon juridicum voce privilegium . privilegium alii sic definiunt , jus singulare in certae personae gratiam favoremve , others so define a priviledge , a singular right in favour of a certain person ; so that a priviledge is a particular law , whereby some persons have benefit different from common right . calvin ibid. item beneficium dicitur privilegium quia benè facit iis quibus conceditur contra legem communem , likewise a priviledge is called a benefit , because it benefits those to whom it is granted , against the common law . if it do not benefit , it is not a priviledge ; priviledges therefore may be priviledges at one time , which are not at another time : and in comparison of some which are not priviledges in comparison of others . to have christ personally present with the disciples , was a priviledge for the time , but it was a priviledge that he was absent , when he went to heaven , and sent his spirit to them : the lawes delivered to the jews were priviledges in comparison of the heathen , but not in comparison of christians . priviledges of the covenant of grace may be conceived , either in respect of the substance of the covenant of grace , or the administration . now , when you speak of priviledges of the covenant of grace , some passages s●em to mean it in respect of the promises of grace in christ , as when you say , our covenant is established upon better promises , we as well as they are called a holy nation , &c. not only in the clearnesse of the administration , but also , &c. and those especially which you have when you say , pag. . we are inquiring for priviledges , which are branches of the covenant of grace , which every man that is in covenant with god , may expect from god , by vertue of the covenant , which cannot be understood but of the promises . now the promises of the covenant of grace , are of the substance of the covenant , not of the administration : but other passages refer to the administration . that yoak , that hard and costly way of administration , which neither they nor their fathers were able to bear , is taken off from our shoulders , the glory of theirs had no glory in respect of ours , they were under the bondage of infants under age , in comparison of our freedome ; which things belong to the administration , pag. . . now , if you mean your conclusion of priviledges of the substance of the covenant of grace , it is to be denied : for so the priviledges of believers are not now inlarged many wayes , or made more honourable or comfortable . your self , pag. . . . say , they are the same to both jews and gentiles : but in respect of the administration , it is granted they are many wayes inlarged , made more honourable ; and in this sense , i grant it , that many scriptures speak of the inlargement of our priviledges , and particularly , those that speak of the removing the hard yoak , acts . . and bringing us into liberty to full age , gal. . . and greater glory , cor. . . and it is true that those things were priviledges to the israelites , but it is a benefit to us , that we are freed from them , and so no priviledge for us , either to have them or any other thing in lieu of them , but christ already come , who is in stead of all . now the thing that you drive at , is this : that whereas you conceive that you have proved before , that the infants of those that are in the covenant of grace , are covenanters with their parents ; that baptisme succeeds in the roome and use of their circumcision , that by gods expresse order , infants were to be circumcised . you lastly conclude , that our priviledges for our selves and children , are at least as honourable , large and comfortable , as theirs , and therefore our infants are to be baptized . the answer to it is this : it is true , our priviledge is the same with theirs in respect of the substance of the covenant , but neither was that made to the jews naturall posterity as such , nor is it made to ours . as for circumcision , it was indeed a priviledge , but belonging to the manner of administration not to the substance of the covenant which is in variable , a priviledge to the jews in comparison of the heathens , but a burthen in comparison of us ; and it is so far from being a priviledge to our children , that they should have either it or any other thing in the place and use of it , but christ manifested in the flesh , that the truth is , it is a great priviledge to us and our children , that they have neither it , nor any other thing in the stead of it but christ manifested in the flesh : and so parents loose nothing by denying baptism to infants in the place & use of circumcision ; but it is indeed , if rightly considered , a benefit to them to want it , god not appointing it , nor making a promise of grace to be confirmed by it to the infants of believers . having premised this , i shall examine the proofs of your conclusion , and see whether they make any thing against that which i have delivered . the thing you should prove , is one of these two : either that circumcision did belong to the substance of the covenant of grace , or , that the want of circumcision , or some ordinance in the place and use of it , is a losse of priviledge of the covenant of grace to us and our children . that which you alledge is this : many scriptures speak of the inlargement of their priviledges , not one for the diminishing or depressing or extenuating of them ; that yoak , that hard and costly way of administration , which neither they nor their fathers were able to bear , is taken off from our shoulders . true , and by this , you yeeld that it may be an inlargement of priviledge to have somewhat removed that was a priviledge formerly . the scripture to which you allude , is that , acts . . now i pray you , what was this yoak , but circumcision , as your self declare , pag. . and all the legall ceremonies which were great priviledges to the jews ; but yet to us it is a priviledge that we are freed from them , and if it be a priviledge to be fre● from circumcision , it is a priviledge to be freed from any ordinance in the roome , place , and use of it . lastly , in that circumcision is taken off from our necks , it appears , that it belongs not to the covenant of grace , which is invariable , and belongs to gentiles as well as to jewes , according to your conclusion . the next scripture you bring , is heb. . . where our covenant is said to be established upon better promises . if this scripture serve to your purpose , then the covenant of grace now hath better promises then the covenant of grace the jews had : but this i know you will deny , who hold that the covenant of grace is the same both to jews and gentiles . but that you may see how confusedly you thrust things together in this place , i pray you consider what covenant it is of which the author to the hebrewes speaks there , that it had not so good promises ; is it not expresly said to be that which god made , when he took the israelites by the hand , to bring them out of the land of egypt , which covenant they brake , vers . . now , although dr. crisp , vol. . serm. . calls the covenant of aarons priestood a covenant of grace , though of lesse grace ; yet you say thus , pag. . and four hundred and thirty yeers after the law was added , with great terror upon mount sinai , not as a part of this covenant ; and after , plainly in that giving of the law there was something of the covenant of works made with adam in paradise , &c. so that you do grant there was a rehearsall of the covenant of works ; though you do make it also to have something of the administration of the covenant of grace . the truth is , the scripture plainly makes it the covenant of works , rom. . . gal. . . . gal. . . heb. . . though i deny not that which you say , that it was intended as a preparative and means to fit them for christ , and therefore may not unfitly be called foedus subserviens , a subservient covenant , as cameron in his theses de triplici foed●re . but this being so , to what purpose do you tell us , that our covenant is established upon better promises ; as if the jewes covenant were no better then that on mount sinai , or as if the comparison concerning priviledges were between the covenant of grace now , and the covenant of works then ; whereas the question is , as you say , page . which are branches of the covenant of grace , and a little after , but were no part of the covenant of grace , which god made to abraham and his seed . now the covenant of grace is that made with abraham , gal. . , &c. as your self alledge , pag. . and you say there , that covenant was for substance alwayes the same , and the substance as you recite it , is the promises and the condition ; so that out of your own words it is clear , that we have no better promises in the covenant of grace now , then they had then , only the administration of the covenant of grace is now better then it was to them ; then it was mixt with other particular promises , which because they are not cōmon to al believers in the covenant of grace , therfore belong not to the covenant of grace in christ purely taken , such as the promise of deliverance from egypt , setling in canaan , &c. for though it is true , that godlinesse hath the promise of the life that now is , and of that which is to come , yet the promise of the life that now is , is not a particular promise of possession of such or such a land to us or our seed , or the coming of christ out of our posteritie , as it was then , but only a generall promise of gods providing for his children with persecution , mark. . . then it was with expectation of christ to come , now with assurance of christ already come in the flesh , and accomplishing what was foretold of him ; then christ was shadowed in darke types , now wee see him unveiled in a plaine history . so that though it be true that the priviledges of believers are now many wayes inlarged in some respects , yet simply the covenant of grace is not inlarged in respect of the substance of it , the promises of grace and the condition , they are still belonging to the elect and believers , and to no other . the next scripture you thus express . the glory of theirs had no glory in respect of ours ; for this you quote cor. . . but this passage is plainly meant of the covenant at mount sinai , which is called the letter , ver . . the ministration of death written and ingraven in stones so glorious , that the children of israel could not stedfastly behold the face of moses for the glory of his countenance , which glory was to be done away , ver . . the ministration of condemnation , ver . . which i suppose you doe not understand of the covenant of grace , and therefore it is impertinently alledged . your next is , they were under the bondage of infants under age in comparison of our freedome . for this you alledge , gal. . . &c. but this is said of the administration in types and shadows and ceremonies , called the rudiments of the world , ver . . concerning which it is confessed our priviledges are enlarged : but they are not branches of the covenant of grace , which every man who is in covenant with god may expect from god by vertue of the covenant . you goe on , we as well as they are called a holy nation , a peculiar people , a chosen generation , separated to him from all other people : it is granted we believers are such a holy nation , &c. doth it therefore follow , that the priviledges of beleevers under this last and best administration of the covenant of grace are many wayes enlarged ? you allude to that place , pet. . . and mr blake , pag. . urgeth this text to prove a birthright priviledge of christians , equall to the nations of the jewes . but it is answered , this passage is meant of the invisible church , the living & lively members of christ. to which he saith . the contrary to this in the text is cleare . first , by looking back to the words that there precede : it is meant of all those who do not professedly with the unbelieving jewes reject christ. i have looked backe and finde no such thing there . it is true , there is mention of some who did reject christ , ver . , . but that when peter sayes , yee are a chosen generation , a royall priesthood , &c. it should be meant of any other then true believers , who alone can offer spirituall sacrifice acceptable to god through jesus christ , is an interpretation which i disclaime , much more that it should be meant of all those who do not professedly with the unbelieving jewes reject jesus christ. for then it may be said , not onely of simon magus , and other hypocrites , but also of all the salvages in the world that never heard of christ , that they are a chosen generation , a royall pries●hood , an holy nation , a peculiar people , that they should shew forth the praise of him , who hath called them out of darkness into his marvailous light . mr blake addes , which will yet more fully appeare by comparing the words of s t paul , rom. . , . i desire mr blake to revise his treatise , and to examine whether this and many other passages answer to mr vines , and others commendation of it . to me the text he cites rom. . , . compared with pet. . . doe as well agree to prove that pet. . . is meant of all those who doe not professedly with the unbelieving jewes reject christ , as a harp and a harrow doe consort to make musique . but perhaps wee may see more by looking forward . secondly , saith mr blake , by looking forward to that which followes in the character which the apostle ( before he ends his description ) addes : which in times past were not a people , but now are the people of god. a speech taken from the prophet to set forth the case of the gentiles , as it is also by s t paul interpreted , rom. . . but the gentiles thus called , and of no people made a people , have all a covenant-holiness , and not alwayes inherent holiness . sure the word nation and people , did so run in mr blakes mind , that he could thinke of nothing but a nationall church like the jewes ; whereas if he had weighed the words , ver . . of having obtained mercy , and considered that both rom. . . & . are meant of the same , of whom he said ver . . that they were the vessels of mercy , which he had afore prepared unto glory , he would have plainly perceived the people and nation to be meant of the invisible church of the elect , and so nothing in that text for the holiness of a believing nation , as some speake , communicating a priviledge of the seales to the infants of that nation : which how absurd a conceit it is , may be shewed perhaps more fully in that which followes . you adde to whom as well as to them belongs the adoption , the covenant , the promises . you allude doubtless to rom. . . but had you alledged the whole text , ver . , , . you would then have seen that it speakes of peculiar priviledges of the jewes , to whom the adoption , covenants , that is , as beza thinkes , the tables of the covenant , the promises of their multiplying , having the messiah from them , &c. were peculiar in the sense the apostle there speakes : and so mr rutherfurd due right of presbyteries , chap. . sect . . pag. . that they had prerogatives above us is cleare , rom. . , , . rom. . . and that in other respects far more excellent we have prerogatives above them it is as cleare , cor. . , , . mat. . , . so that even in respect of the covenant made with abraham it is plaine the jewes had some priviledges above us , and therefore this place proves the contrary to your conclusion , and that the want of some priviledges they had , may be recompensed by some other priviledges we have : and therefore you may see how feeble a reason this is from the jewish priviledge of infant-males circumcision to prove infant-baptisme . but to follow you in your way . you say , we as well as they injoy him to be our father , and with his dearest sonne our lord are made co-heires of the kingdome of glory . all this is granted , but to what purpose it is produced i see not . you adde , we have all these things with advantage , not onely in the clearnesse of the administration , but in some sense in greater extent to persons with us ; there is neither male nor female . this is true also , we have the substance of the covenant of grace , that is , justification , &c. with advantage not only in the clearness of administration , but in some sense in greater extent to persons with us . for now not only the small nation of the jewes , but also of all nations , believers are brought into the covenant of grace . but this proves not your conclusion , or any of those things that may serve for your purpose . you adde . and there is neither male nor female . why you adde this i know not , except you mean to insinuate , that in the jewish church there was male and female , because circumcision was onely of males . but neither doth the apostle , gal. . . intimate , that wee are better than the jewes , as if their females were not within the covenant of grace , nor will you say it . now that which you were speaking of , was the substance of the covenant of grace , that wee are made co-heires of the kingdome of glory , &c. not of the administration of it , and so there was no more distinction of male and female with the jewes then with us , nor more priviledges of ours then of the jewes in this particular . thus have i examined all the proofes you bring for your fifth conclusion , and thereby you may perceive how you have heaped together many places of scripture , without any usefull order or distinction or pertinency to the thing in hand . you bring in next an objection thus ; some indeed goe about to shew , that in some things the jewes had greater priviledges then we have , as that abraham had the priviledge to be called the father of the faithfull , that christ should be borne of his flesh ; mary had the priviledge to be the mother of christ , and the whole nation this priviledge , that god will call in their seed againe , after they had been cast off for unbeliefe many hundred yeares ; which priviledges , say they , none of the gentiles have or can have . it is true , that in answer to the argument from circumcision , as it is popularly framed ( which yet i perceive many that either are or should be scholars to examine things more scholastically , do or pretend to satisfie their consciences with ) thus ; if the children of believers be not to be baptized , then we have less priviledge then the jewes ; then the grace of god under the new testament , is straitned more then in the old . to this argument as being an argument of no weight , but onely among vulgar and non-syllogizing capacities , among other things i said thus in my latin paper above mentioned , nec absurdum est dicere respectu aliquorum privilegiorum gratiam dei contractiorem in novo testamento , quàm in veteri , v. gr . nulla familia habet privilegium quod abrahami familiae concessum est , ut ex ea nasceretur christus , nullus vir praeter abrahamum pater fidelium , nulla faemina praeter unicam mater christi , &c. yet it is not absurd to say , that in respect of some priviledges the grace of god is more contracted in the new testament , then in the old : for instance ; no family hath now the priviledge that was granted to abrahams family , that out of it christ should be borne : no man besides abraham is called the father of the faithfull ; no woman besides one , the mother of christ. by which i would shew , that it is no absurditie to grant that the jewes may have more priviledges secundum quid , in some things , then wee , and yet our case and condition , to speak simply , better then theirs , by reason of other priviledges we have above them , which recompence the defect of those priviledges , whether real or supposed , which is the very same which as robinson did alledge , so rutherford grants in the place above-named , and cites two scriptures to prove it , rom. . , , . rom. . . and the truth is , priviledges are so arbitrary and various , that god gives them as he thinkes good , oft times without assigning any special reason , so that no argument can be drawne thus . god gave such a priviledge to the jewes , ergo , we must have such a priviledge too , except we can prove it is gods will it should be so . and therefore this argument is of no force , but rather an argument of arrogant presumption , without an institution to attempt to prove , that because the jewes had a priviledge to circumcise infants , therefore we must have a priviledge to baptize infants , nor doe any of the many scriptures you have alledged , prove that baptisme of infants is a priviledge granted by god in lieu of circumcision : but you take upon you to answer this objection . you say , but these things have no weight : we are inquiring for priviledges which are branches of the covenant of grace , which every man who is in covenant with god , may expect from god by vertue of the covenant , were he a jew or a proselyte , not for any particular or peculiar favour to a particular man or woman , or family , or tribe : all these forementioned things , and many other of the like kind ( as the ministery of the tabernacle & temple to belong to one tribe , the kingly office to one family , such and such men never to lacke a man of their house to stand and before god ) proceeded indeed from free grace , but were no parts of the covenant of grace , which god made to abraham and all his seed . for could every man in covenant challenge these things at gods hand , and that by vertue of the covenant ? could every one of them promise that christ should be borne of his flesh ? or every one of their women that shee should be the mother of christ ? could every one whom god owned to be in covenant with him , promise by vertue of the covenant , that their children , if cast off by unbeliefe , should after many hundred yeares be againe called in ? we speak onely of such priviledges as were universall and common to all who were in covenant , for which by vertue of the covenant they might relie upon god. though you say , the things objected have no weight , yet it may seeme they are so heavy & presse your conclusion so hard , as that you cannot well ease it of them . the things objected , you deny not : but you answer , that they are impertinent : you tell us why , because you enquire for priviledges which are branches of the covenant of grace , common to all in covenant , which they may challenge at gods hand by vertue of the covenant , and such are not these . it is not materiall what you inquire after , men may sectari aquilam in nubibus , follow after an eagle in the clouds . but sure i am the scriptures you bring , prove not that believers now have more priviledges belonging to the covenant of grace , which all may challenge at gods hands , then the jewes had . yea your second conclusion contradicts your fifth , understood in this sense . beside , circumcision was not a priviledge common to all in the covenant of grace : for besides all the faithfull before abraham , and those of his time , melchisedeck , and lot , and their households , and job after his time , there was a sort of proselytes , called strangers , or of the gate , who were not circumcised , yet the scripture reckons them among the worshippers of god. such is cornelius conceived to be by mede in his discourse on acts . . by selden lib. . de jure nat . & gent. c. . who is said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a godly or devout man , and one that feared god with all his house , which gave much almes to the people , and prayed to god alwayes , act. . . and therefore within the covenant of grace . besides the priviledges alledged in the objection doe some of them at least belong to the covenant of grace as well as circumcision , as to be father of the faithfull , to be the mother of christ , and the last belongs much more to the covenant of grace then circumcision . and those rom. . . are priviledges which you alledge as belonging to the covenant of grace , to which i may joyne that rom. . . that to them were committed the oracles of god , which yet were prerogatives of the jewes , as mr rutherford rightly and according to truth . lastly , the phrases , rom. . . of the naturall branches , ver . . of the wild olive by nature , thou wast graffed in besides nature , these according to nature , doe seeme to me to import , not that the jewes were in the covenant of grace by nature , but that they had this priviledge to be reckoned in the outward administration , as branches of the olive by their birth , by vertue of gods appointment which the gentiles have not . but you goe on . let any m●n shew out of the scripture , where our priviledges under the gospel are cut short in any of these things , and be saith somewhat , and in particular for the case in hand , concerning our infants right to the covenant of grace , and the seale of it : once we are sure the infant children of all covenanters were within the covenant , and the seale also belonged to them , and by vertue of the covenant ( which is still the same ) we plead their interest in it . let any man shew when and where this was taken away , when the infant children of believers were expunged out of the covenant of grace . it is unreasonable to require men to shew what they doe not avouch ; it were equall to exact this taske at the hands of those who doe expunge the infant children of believers out of the covenant of grace : we neither write in nor expunge out ; but leave that to god onely , from whom we learne , esau have i hated , jacob have i loved . though you thinke your selfe sure , that all the infants of covenanters were within the covenant of grace , yet i see no cause to believe you , for as much as i thinke god never shewed you the booke of life , that you may see who are written in , who expunged out of the covenant of grace , and st paul who was as well read in that booke as you , saith rom. . . they which are the children of the flesh , are not the children of god , but the children of the promise are counted for the seed , which how to spell i have shewed above . but you adde . certainly who ever will goe about to deprive them of it , to cut off such a great part of the comfort of believing parents , must produce cleare testimonies before they can perswade believers to part with either of them , either right to the covenant , or to the seale of the covenant . and you adde two reasons of it . you are now on your advantage ground , in a veine of oratory , and on a subject , of all others , aptest to move affections , to wit , parents tendernesse to their children . but wee must not sacrifice truth to either of these . you insinuate that antipaedobaptists goe about to deprive infant-children of believers of the covenant of grace . they may tell you , it were a madness for them to goe about such an impossibilitie , as the putting out or putting into the covenant of grace , and that they hope so well of you , that you come not so neere the papists , or augustines opinion , as to thinke infants dying unbaptized , are out of the covenant of grace . and as for cutting off a great part of the comfort of believing parents , i pray you tell us what comfort is cut off by it , you cannot say that either an infant is certainly regenerated or saved by baptisme , nor can you say , he is lost for want of it . what comfort then doe you give them indeed which the antipaedobap●ists doe not give as well as you ? or , what discomfort in truth , do they give them , which you do not ? all the comfort you can indeed give them , is that according to your hypotheses , they do their duty : but if it be proved that they prophane the ordinance of baptisme by bringing infants to baptisme ( which there is great cause to think they do ) it may rather bring discomfort to their conscience in fine , then comfort . but to believers indeed , gods glory will be more deare then their own comfort ; and therefore they will be content to part with that which dishonoured god , though it seemed cause of comfort to themselves : they will imitate abraham , who quieted himself in the will of god concerning ishmael , though deare unto him ; and isaac , who perceiving gods rejecting of esau , yet submitted to his will. and for your two reasons , because they are only a piece of pathetick oratory , i passe them over . for though there be some strains that logically examined will not endure the test , yet having learned the rule about reading the fathers , not to account all their rhetoricall expressions their dogmaticall resolutions , i am willing to conceive the same of you . and as for your recapitulation of your conclusions , and your inference thereupon , how short they are of your conceit of them , i leave it to your self to consider , and proceed to that which you say is the main and only objection remaining which hath any colour of weight in it . you say the objection is this : there is no comm●nd , no expresse institution , or cle●r ex●mple in all the new testament of baptizing of infants ; and in the administratinn of s●craments , we are not to be led by our own reason , or grounds of seeming p●obabilitie , but by the expresse order of christ , and no otherwise . this you justly count the main objection ; which if you could answer clearly , all the rest of your discourse might be saved , and without answering it , all that you have said else is to little purpose . for , though it were proved that the children of believers were in the covenant of grace , baptisme succeeds to circumcision , our priviledges greater then the jewes , yet all this cannot acquit the practice of baptizing infants from will-worship , without an institution , by precept or apostolicall example . and therefore , as it concerns smectymnuus , so almost all the divines of the assembly , and preachers of the city , that have so often delivered in their sermons at westminster , now in print , and in the city , that in gods worship we must not medd●e a jot further then god hath comm●nded , to shew some institution of christ , or example of his apostles for it , otherwise the prelatists will tell you , that they can shew virtuall command from analogie of the ceremoniall law of the jews , and tradition ecclesiasticall as ancient as yours for paedobaptisme , for their prelacy , holydayes , surplice , &c. against which there have been so many , and those just declamations . if then you do not stand to it here you may yeeld up your weapons . let us then try it out on this ground : you begin thus ; if by institution , command and example , they mean an expresse syllabicall command , &c. i grant that in so many words it is not found in the new testament that they should be baptized : no expresse example where children were baptized . sure this is a shrewd signe that you are not likely to make good your ground , when you have yeelded so much . but i grant , that if you make it good , by good consequence , you may recover all . let us then consider what you say of that . but i also adde , that i deny the consequence , that if in so many words it be not commanded in the new testament , it ought not to be d●ne ; this is not true divinity , that christians are not tyed to observe that which is not expresly in so many words set down in the new testament . true , but whose consequence is this ? infants are not to be baptized , because that which is not in so many words commanded in the new testament , ought not to be done ? the consequence rightly framed is this : in meer positive worship that ought not to be done , which hath not precept , or apostolicall example equivalent to a precept , gathered by plain words , or good inference out of the new testament : for , if it have none of these , it is wil-worship . and baptisme of infants is such , therefore it ought not to be done . the ground of it is this , because all the ceremoniall or meere positive worship of the jewes is now abrogated ; and therefore a precept of god to them is not a warrant to us now , if it were , it must be in one thing as well as another , and so we must bring on our necks the yoak of bondage of the mosaical law. now let us see how you encounter this argument : you answer by telling us ; there is no expresse reviving of the lawes , concerning the forbidden degrees of marriage in the new testament , except of not having a m●ns fathers wife , cor. . . no expresse law against polygamie ; no expresse command for the celebration of a weekely sabbath ; are therefore christians free in all these c●ses ? i answer , no , but withall i say , that the first instance is about a morall command , and yet there is for one branch of incest , an expresse censure in the new testament , proving the unl●wfulnesse of it ; whereas the businesse is now about a point of meer positive ceremoniall worship , and so there 's not the like reason . secondly , the same may be said of polygamie , that it is a sin against a morall precept , and yet there is good proof against it in the new testament , from mat. . . . and for the third , enough hath been said above , part. . sect. . to shew how little advantage you have in this instance . but you adde , yea in the point of s●craments there is no expresse command , no example in all the new testament , where women received the sacrament of the lords supper , there is no expresse command , that the children of believers , when they are grown , should be instructed and baptized by their parents ; expresse command there is , that they should teach the heathen , and the jews , and m●ke them disciples , and then baptize them , but no command that the children of those that are believers should be baptized when they are grown men ; nor any example where ever that was done : will any man therefore say , that christian women are not to be partakers of the lords supper ? i think none will be so absurd as to affirm it . if it be said , though these things be not expresly and in terminis in the new testament , yet they are there virtually , and by undeniable consequence , i confesse it is true . you do in this perioch , give two instances of practice , warranted by command , or example , gathered by consequence in the new testament , in the positive worship of the sacraments , to wit , womens receiving the lords supper , and the baptizing of children of believers , when grown persons , which you grant are virtually , and by undeniable consequence in the new testament , though not expresly and in terminis , in terms . now this thing you need not have proved , i readily grant it , that what ever in positive worship is commanded in the new testament , though it be not in formall terms commanded , yet if it may be gathered by virtuall consequence , ought to be done . neverthelesse , i observe : first , that you do well expresse the institution of christ , matth. . . when you say , expresse command there is , that they should teach the heathen and the jews , and make them disciples , and then baptize them , of which i may make further use afterwards . secondly , that when you say , there is no expresse command , no example in all the new testament , where women received the sacrament of the lords supper , you imply there is for males . now , herein you , mr. vines and mr. blake , and generally others follow zwinglius , whose conceit this was , if he were not the first inventor : and mr. blake expresseth himself thus , pag. . no particular president more then for this of infant-baptisme . but i pray you tell me , is not that , cor. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , let a man examine himself , and so let him eat of that bread , and drink of that cup , an expresse command in formall terms ? and doth not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 comprehend both sexes ? when the apostle sayes , vers . . i delivered unto you that which i received from the lord , was not that a command , and that to the whole church , women as well as men ? when he saith , cor. . . we being many , are one bread , and one body ; for we are all partakers of that one bread , and are not women as well of the body as men ? and if so , here is an expresse example in formall terms for womens receiving the lords supper ? the like may be said , of cor. . . acts . . unlesse you will say , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , himself , all , disciples , comprehend not women , because they are of the masculine gender , which from you that have learned that logica non curat sexum , logick regards not sex , and that hundreds of places there be , where the masculine gender is put , the matter so requiring it , for both sexes , i do not suspect . and for your other instance , as i do not remember any brings it but your self , so it is as little to the purpose as the other : for that which you say , that there is no expresse command that the children of believers should be baptized when they are grown men . it is true , except they professe the faith ; but there is an expresse command , as your self grant , to baptize disciples , and so to baptize the childe of a believer that professeth the faith , not otherwise ; so that these your instances are brought to prove that which is not denied , and yet the instances are impertinent to prove it . you say further : so have we virtually , and by undenyable consequence , sufficient evidence for the baptizing of children , both commands and examples . this assertion is full , if you mean by children , infant-children of believers , prove this , and you need prove no more . but your fetching such a compasse about , makes me imagine your attempt will prove but a parturiunt montes , the mountains bring forth , especially , when your proof is but from analogy ; concerning which , the rule holds , as mr. bowles in his sermon on joh. . . allegorica theologia , ( unlesse the lord himself make the application ) non est argumentativa , allegoricall divinity is not argumentative ; but it is fit you should be heard . you say , for , first you have gods command to abraham , as he was the father of all covenanters , that he should seal his children with the seal of the covenant . i grant we have gods command to abraham , who is indeed called , the father of the faithfull , no where that i know , the father of all covenanters , to circumcise his males of eight dayes old ; and i deny not , but that this was a seal , that is , a confirming signe of the covenant god made with abraham ; whence gods covenant was said to be in their flesh , gen. . . and 't is called the covenant of circumcision , act. . . but you have need of the philosophers stone to turn this into a command to baptize infants of believers , which you thus attempt . you tell us , now this truth , all our divines defend against the papists , that all gods commands and institutions about the sacraments of the jews , binde us as much as they did them in all things which belong to the substance of the covenant , and were not accidentall unto them . this is your foundation for your undeniable consequence , it had need then be very undeniable , and so you conceive it , because it is a tru●h all our divines defend against the papists . but this is no undeniable axiome , that what all the protestant divines defend against the papists must be truth undeniable , i do not think all the divines in the assembly will subscribe to it ; i for my part do disclaim it , i give that honour only to the holy scripture , and have learned from art. . of the church of england , that generall councels have erred , and may erre , and consequently all the divines in the world : and one paphnutius is to be heard against a whole oecumenicall councel sometimes . and for this which you call a truth , all our divines defend against the papists , i marvell how you can averre it , unlesse you had read them all , which i think neither you nor any one else hath ; and for this maxime , i question whether any one leading author have delivered that which you charge all our divines with , because you direct not where they deliver it , it is in vain for me to make search ; it were to seek a needle in a bottle of hay ; but i will examine whether it be truth or no. you suppose , that there are comm●nds of god about the sacraments of the jews , which is granted : but then let me tell you , i do not assent to this , that circumcision and the passeover are all the ordinary sacraments of the jews ; i do approve of the words of r. c. that is , as i learn from mr. selden , de anno civili veter . judae . c. . mr. ralph cudworth of cambridge , ( whom he there commends ) in that book of his , which is of the true notion of the lords supper , chap. . styl'd by mr. selden , a witty and very learned book , where he saith , i know not what warrant there is for that divinity so m●gisterially imposed upon us by some , that the jews had but two sacraments , circumcision , and the passeover , and that it should thence follow by inevitable consequence , that the lords supper must 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , answer only to the jewish passeover ; sure i am , the jews had many more ; for not to instance in that of paul , cor. . , , . nor to examine all the other sacramentall ceremonies which they had , that were almost as many sacraments as ceremonies , these feasts upon the sacrifices which we have all this while insisted on , were nothing else but true and proper sacraments joyned with sacrifices . i adde , that according to the received definitions of a sacrament , all the sacrifices that were propitiatory , were sacraments , that is , visible sealing signes of invisible grace in christ appointed by god to that end . secondly , you suppose , that of those comm●nds and institutions of god , some did belong to the substance of the covenant , some were accidentall to them . this last expression is very ambiguous , whether you mean by [ them ] the jewes , or the sacraments , which seems most likely ; or , whether you would , as the law of opposion requires , say accidentall to the covenant . again , you here contradistinguish the substance of the covenant , and that which is accidentall to it , which i construe in the same sense that you distinguish between the substance of the covenant and the administration of it , pag. . conceiving by your explication that you call the substance of the covenant that which is invariable , and that which is accidentall that which is variable . substance doth not agree to covenant , which is an action in proper sense ; but in schoole● it is usuall to distinguish between the substance of the act , and the circumstances of it , the essence and the accidents , but i do not remember that logicians do oppose the accidents of an act to the substance of it , and so your expression of the substance of the covenant , and that which is accidentall , is not in my apprehension , after the usuall speech of the schooles , and therefore i cannot well tell what sense to make of it . if [ them ] referre to the jewes , then it is said , something of the sacraments was accidentall to the jewes , but i know not how to make any handsome sense of this . if you referre [ them ] to the sacraments , you make something commanded by god , accidentall to the sacraments , which may be yeelded you in this sense ; that there might something have the essence of a sacrament without such accidents , as it might be true circumcision , though it were not the eighth day ; it might be a true passeover , though not on the right night . yet , in this sense it cannot be yeelded that it was so accidentall , that it might be omitted without sin , any more then the thing it self : for , it was as well a sin , not to circumcise the eighth day , or not to keep the passeover on the night appointed by god , as not to do these acts at all , since a command was broken in one as well as the other : for these reasons , i cannot well tell how to deny or grant that which you suppose , that some commands of god about the sacraments of the jews , were accidentall to them . but that which is supposed , that some of the commands of god about the sacraments of the jews , did contain things belonging to the substance of the covenant , meaning , of the covenant of grace , i can in no wise assent unto it : for , if either you mean by substance the essence of the covenant , i utterly deny that any of the sacraments of the jews were of the essence of the covenant , gods covenant was , and might be without them : if you mean by substance , that which in no case might be varied , i deny it in that sense also ; nothing of the sacraments of the jews was morall and invariable . and it is most true , that as the sacrifices , so sacraments ( according to the common distinction ) were belonging to the administration of the covenant for the time , but never of the substance of the covenant ; for that consists only in the things you expresse for the substance , pag. . and for the maxime which you f●ther on all our divines , which i can hardly believe any one of our divines have delivered , as you have done , i utterly deny it , to wit , that all gods commands and institutions about the sacraments of the jews bind us as much as they did them , in all things which belong to the substance of the covenant , as being contradictory to those words , art. . of the church of england . although the law given from god by moses , as touching ceremonies and rites , do not bind christian men , and on the contrary , i affirm , that they are all abrogated , subst●nce and circumstance , whole , and part ; and i thus prove it : first , those things bind us not which had their complement in christ , but all the sacraments of the jews had their complement in chtist , ergo. the major is the force of the apostles prohibition ; and the reason of it , col. . , . the minor is delivered , cor. . . col. . . heb. . . heb. . . and beza in annot. in col. . . hoc respectu ut euangelicae gratiae adhuc exhibendae , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ceremoniis finis erat impositus ipsius christi , id est veritatis , quam antea adumbrarant exhibitione , by the exhibition of christ himself , that is the truth , which before they shadowed , there was an end put to ceremonies in this respect , as being seals of euangelicall grace yet to be exhibited . secondly , those things bind not us now , which were taken away by christs death ; this i suppose you will not deny , lest you evacuate the effect of christs death : but christ hath by his death abolished all the sacraments of the jews , comprehended under the law of commands in ordinances or rites , ephes. . . col. . . therefore they bind not . thirdly , those commands which were only to continue till faith came , those bind not now faith is come : but the commands of the sacraments of the jews were such , therefore they bind not now : the major and minor are delivered , gal. . , , . gal. . , , , . act. . , . fourthly , those commands bind us not , which were a partition wall between jews and gentiles ; but all the sacraments of the jewes in whole and in part , were a partition wall between jews and gentiles , therefore they bind us not . the major and minor are delivered , ephes. . . fifthly , those commands which were unprofitable , and weak rudiments of the world , contrary to christ , beggerly rudiments , these bind not a christian now ; but such are the jews sacraments , heb. . . col. . . . gal. . . . therefore they bind not . sixthly , those commands that belonged to another priesthood then christs , bind not christians , but the jews sacraments belonged to another priesthood then christs , therefore they bind not . the major and minor are both delivered , heb. . . . heb. . . seventhly , those commands that belonged to another covenant then that which now in force , bind not ; but such are the commands of the jews sacraments , heb. . . heb. . . therefore they bind not . eightly , those commands which were proper to the jews , bind not us christians ; but the sacraments of the jews were proper to the jews , so was circumcision , the passeover , the sacrifices ; therefore they bind us not . ninthly , if one part bind us , then all the commands bind us ; and if we be obliged to any one rite , then to all , for they had all the same authority ; nor hath that authority dissolved any one part more then another . now it is a sure rule , that ubi lex non distinguit , non est distinguendum , where the law distinguisheth not , we must not distinguish ; therefore , either none binds us , or else we must revoke judaisme . and indeed , to say , so far a command of god binds , and so far not , without a plain declaration of gods will , is an high presumption , whereby man takes on him to release or dispense with gods law , which is of equall authority with the making of a law . lastly , those commands bind us not , which the apostle would not have us subject to , no not in part , but such are the commands of the jewish sacraments , col. . . . gal. . , , . and your self say , pag. . the apostle would take them off wholly from circumcision ; therefore they bind us not : yea , it is to overthrow utterly our christian liberty by christ , which the apostle was so stiffe in maintaining that he would not yeeld , no , not one hou● , and blamed peter for di●sembling this liberty , gal. . . . to maintain that all the commands and institutions of god about the sacraments of the jews bind us as much as they did them in all things which belong to the substance of the covenant , and were not accidentall to them . but you endeavour to make good your maxime by instances , and accordingly you say thus : as because circumcision is called a seal of the covenant , therefore our sacraments are seals of the covenant ; though circumcision no where that i know , be called the seal of the covenant , but only the seal of the righteousnesse of faith , rom. . . yet , because it is called a signe or token of the covenant , gen. . . it may well be called a seal or confirming signe of the covenant with abraham , and so of the covenant of grace ; and our sacraments may be so called likewise , they being confirming signs of the new testament , luk. . . acts . . but not because circumcision was called so , but because that phrase expresseth the truth of the thing . but what is this instance to your purpose ? is there a command or institution of god , binding the jews to call circumcision so ? or a command or institution for us by vertue of the command to the jews to call it so ? though i should oppose him that should deny our sacraments to be seals of the covenant , because he should deny a truth , yet i should not say he did sin that did not call them so . your next instance is , be●ause circumcision might be administred but once , being the seal of initiation , therefore baptisme being also the seal of initiation is to be administred but once . however i conceive no necessity of circumcision or baptisme above once , yet i professe my self unsatisfied in this , that there is either a command , that a person be but once circumcised , or a person once only baptized : however , if there were a command that a person should be but once circumcised , and it could be proved that a person should be but once baptized , yet i utterly deny , that the command to circumcumcise but once , is a cammand to baptize but once ; and therefore what ever any divines may dictate magisterially , yet i do not think my self in pythagoras his school , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he said it , should be my rule . you adde : but that circumcision was to be administred on the eighth day only , was an accidentall thing , and therefore bindeth not . i see no reason why once circumcising should belong to the substance of the covenant , and to be circumcised on the eighth day should be accidentall ; yea , if reason may rule the roast , there is more reason that circumcising on the eighth day should belong to the substance of the covenant , being commanded by god expresly , and as many of the ancients conceive , particularly cyprian , ep. . ad finem , typifying christs resurrrection on the eighth day , then that to be circumcised but once , should be of the substance of the covenant , which is neither commanded , nor is found in scripture to typifie any thing belonging to the covenant : so vaine are mens conceits , without the light of the word . but you go forward in the other sacrament . the jewish passeover being to be yearly repeated , binds us to have a repetition of the sacrament of the lords supper , which came in roome of it , because this belongs to the substance of the covenant ; both of them being sacraments for spirituall nourishment , growth , and continuance in the covenant : ( as the other was , for birth and entrance ) but that their passeover was to be e●ten in an evening , and upon one set evening in the yeare , was accidentall , and so binds not us . here is a heape of dictats without proofe . i grant the jewish passeover was to be yearly repeated , because god so commanded it , but tha● either this belonged to the substance of the covenant , or that this command binds us to the frequen● use of the lords supper , i deny it : if it did , it were a very good plea for the superstitious custome of keeping easter , and receiving the communion once a yeare on that day , which i thinke you will be ashamed of , though you lay the egge out of which it may be hatched . i grant the lords supper is to be repeated often , not because the jewish passeover was to be yearly repeated , or because it is the sacrament for spirituall nourishment , growth , and continuance in the covenant ( as the other was for birth and entrance ) but because it may be plainly gathered from the institution or command of christ , and the apostles declaration thereupon , cor. . , . for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth imply 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as oft doth imply , not obscurely but plainly , a frequency , and if example must be a rule , as it is conceived in many cases lesse cleare , and that have lesse reason ; that example acts . . should binde that on the first day of the weeke , when disciples come together they have the lords supper , for the which the meeting then was intended , and that action gave denomination to the whole service ; and by the relation of justine martyr ( if my memory deceive me not ) and others , it was so in the primitive church of christians ; but i desire to be sparing in matters of command on mens consciences . as for that you make the evening accidentall to the passeover , and so not binding us in the use of the lords supper , it 's but a dictate . the evening of the passeover is no more accidentall then the day it selfe , they being commanded both together . and for the lords supper , how we can be loose to receive it in the morning or evening after supper , when the apostle doth so distinctly mention in this relation of the institution , cor. . . that it was done in the night ; and vers . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , after he had supped ; i leave to your assembly to cons●der ; especially those of you that are so stiffe for the sitting together at the table , which is not mentioned or hinted in the apostles relation , and therefore may seeme as much occasionall as the other . and for that which you intimate , as if baptisme were not the sacrament for spirituall nourishment , growth , and continuance in the covenant , as well as for entrance ; i take to be but a dictate like the rest , which upon exact examination will not hold : it seems to me somewhat neare of kinne to that of bellarmine and other papists , that the efficacy of baptisme extends not to the remission of the sinnes of our whole life , but of originall sinne onely . but you have yet one more instance , and thus you speake ; the like instance i give in our christian sabbath ; the fourth commandement binds , as for the substance of it , as much as ever it bound the jewes , there god once for all , separated one day of seven to be sacred to himselfe , and all the world stood bound in all ages to give unto god that one day of seven , which should be of his own choosing . now untill christs time , god chose the last day of the seven to be his sabbath ; and having by the death and resurrection of our lord jesus , put an end to the saturday sabbath , and surrogated the first day of the week instead thereof to be the lords day , wee need no new commandement for the keeping of the lords day , being tyed by the fourth commandement to keep that day of seven which the lord should choose ; the lord having chosen this , the fou●th commandement binds us to this , as it did the jewes to the former ; so in like manner , i say in the sacrament of baptisme . what i conceive about the lords day , i have before declared part. . sect. . where also i shewed you how different the case of paedobaptisme is from it , which i shall not now repeate ; onely whereas you bring the sabbath for an instance of a command of god , about the sacraments of the jewes , binding us as well as the jewes ; you forget the marke at which you shoote , the sabbath or lords day being not to be reckoned among the jewes sacraments , or ours , according to the usuall ecclesiasticall acception and definition of the word . you see now your maxime , which is the foundation of your undeniable consequence undermined , i presume you may see quickly the superstruction it selfe overturned : one blow more will doe it . you piece things together thus ; when god made the covenant with abraham , and promised for his part to be the god of him and his seed ; what god promised to abraham , wee claime our part in it as the child●en of abraham , and wh●t god required on abrahams part for the substance of obedience , wee all stand charged with , as well as abraham ; wee as abraham are tyed to beleeve , to love the lord with all our heart , to have our hearts circumcised , to walke before god in uprightnesse ; to instruct our children , and bring them up for god , and not for our selves , nor for the devill , to teach them to worship god according to his revealed will , to traine them up under the ordinances and institutions of gods own appointment . all these things god commanded to abraham , and charges upon all the children of the covenant , though there were no expresse reviving these commands in any part of the new testament . and therefore consequently , that command of god to abraham , which bound his seed of the jewes to traine up their children in that manner of worship , which was then in force , binds the seed of abraham now , to traine up their children in ●onformitie to such ordinances as are now in force . supposing you meane by what god promised to abraham , the spirituall part of the covenant , and the persons claiming to be beleevers : i grant this passage to be truth ; for these duties are morall duties , and binde at all times ; but that which follows , i cannot tell how to take for any other then plain judaisme . you say , and the s●me command which enjoyned abraham to seale his children with the seale of the covenant , enjoynes us as strongly to seale ours with the seale of the covenant , and that command of god which expresly bound abraham to seale his with the signe of circumcision , which was the sacrament then in force , pro tempore , for the time , doth virtually binde us to seale ours with the signe of baptisme , which is the sacrament now in force , and succeeds into the roome of the other by his owne appointment . this is your undeniable consequence , inferred from a judaizing principle , without so much as one scripture to prove either the principle or conclusion ; whereas ● have brought ten arguments most of them out of the scripture against your principle ; and for the conclusion , what construction can be made of it , but this , that the command of god to circumcise , binds us still ? for that was the seale of the covenant god enjoyned to abraham , and so the law given by moses as touching ceremonies and rites , binds christian men , contrary to art. . of the church of england . then must wee circumcise our males at the eighth day , as they did . but you say , it binds us virtually only to seale ours with the signe of baptisme ; i pray you then what meane you by this virtuall binding ? the opposite member was expresly , and in terminis , in termes . is this then your meaning , that it doth not binde expresly and in terminis , but virtually , that is , implicitely , and by interpretation ? tell us then , i beseech you , by what rule of divinitie , logick , grammar , or rhetoricke , is a man to conceive this command , cut off the foreskin of the secret part of all the males in thy house the eighth day . that is , let a preacher of the gospel wash with water at any time after birth the young infants , male and female of beleevers all over , or on the face . you call this undeniable consequence : if so , it 's either demonstrative from the cause , or effect , or definition , or propertie , or the like ; or it 's onely topicall , and then not undeniable ; you say , 't is by cleare consequence , you may as well say , this is good consequence , tu es petrus & super hanc petram , thou art peter , and upon this rocke ; ergo , the pope is monarch of the church ; or with baronius , arise peter , kill and eate ; ergo , the pope may deprive princes ; if you can apprehend cleare consequence in it , you may enjoy your conceit ; nos non sumus adeò sagaces , wee are not so quick-witted . i passe to the next command , which you thus expresse . another you shall finde , mat. . where our saviour bids them goe and teach all nations , baptizing them in the name of the father , of the sonne , and of the holy ghost . where you have two things ; first , what they were to doe . secondly , to whom they were to doe it ; they were to preach and teach all things which he had commanded them ; that is , they were to preach the whole gospel , mark. . . the whole covenant of grace , containing all the promises , whereof this is one , viz. that god will be the god of believers , and of their seed ; that the seed of believers are taken into covenant with their parents ; this is a part of the gospel preached to abraham . the gospel which was preached to abraham , is delivered galat. . , . and the scripture foreseeing that god would justifie the heathen through faith , preached before the gospel to abraham ▪ saying , in thee shall all nations be blessed ; so then they which be of faith , are blessed with faithfull abraham . and rom. . , . i am not ashamed of the gospel of christ , for it is the power of god to salvation , to every one that beleeveth , to the jew first , and also to the greeke . for therein is the righteousnesse of god revealed from faith to faith ; as it is written , the just shall live by faith . the like may be proved out of rom. . and elsewhere ; but it is no wrong to say it , that it is a new gospel , to affirme , that this is one of the promises of the covenant of grace , that god will be the god of believers , and of their seed ; that the seed of believers are taken into covenant with their parents . i cannot derive it's pedegree higher then zuinglius . but you goe on : and they were to baptize them , that is , to administer baptisme as a seale of the covenant to all who received the covenant ; this is a dark paraphrase , you expresse it clearer , pag. . expresse command is there , that they should teach the heathen , and the jewes , and make them disciples , and then baptize them . if your meaning be the same in both places , i am content you should comment on your own words ; you goe on ; secondly , wee have the persons to whom they were to do this , all nations , whereas before the church was tyed to one nation , one nation onely were disciples , now their commission was extended to make all nations disciples , every nation which should receive the faith , should be to him now as the peculiar nation of the jewes had been in time past . in a word , nations here are opposed to the one nation before . i grant that nations are opposed to one nation , and that th● commission was extended to all nations ; which you expresse well , pag. . whereas before they were to goe to the lost sheepe of the house of is●ael , now they were to goe unto all the world . but what sense those wo●ds may carry , every nation which should receive the faith , should be to him now as the peculiar nation of the jewes had been in time past is doubtfull . for either it may have this sense , every nation that receives the faith , that is , believers of every nation , shall be to mee a peculiar people , as the jewes were , in the sense that peter speaks , pet. . . and so the sense is good ; or thus , when a nation shall receive the faith , that is , a great or eminent part , the governours and chief cities , & representative body , shall receive the faith , that nation shall in like manner have all their little ones capable of baptisme , and counted visible members of the church , as the posteritie of the jewes were in the time of that church administration . this i guesse is the businesse that is now upon the anvill , by observing ●undry passages in latter writers , with whom your sermon agrees , as if it came out of the same forge . mr blake , pag. . hath these words . in the same sense and latitude , as nation was taken in respect of the covenant of god , when the covenant and covenant-initiating-sacrament was restrained to that one onely nation , where their commission was first limited : in the same sense it is to be taken ( unlesse the text expresse the contrary ) now this commission is enlarged . this cannot be denied of any that will have the apostles able to know christs meaning by his words in this enlarged commission . but nation then , as is confessed , did comprehend all in the nation in respect of the covenant , and nothing is expressed in the text to the contrary , therefore it is to be taken in that latitude , to comprehend infants . mr rutherfurd in his peaceable and temperate plea , ch. . concl. . arg. . hath these words ; seeing god hath chosen the race and nation of the gentiles , and is become a god to us , and to our seede ; the seede must be holy , with holinesse of the chosen nation , and holinesse externall of the covenant , notwithst●●●ing the father and mother were as wicked , as the jewes who slew the lord of glory . and indeed those paedobaptists are forced to say so , who justifie the practise of baptizing foundlings , infants of papists , excommunicate persons , apostates , if they be borne within their parish ; thereby directly crossing their own tenent , that this is the priviledge of a believer from the covenant of grace , i will be the god of a believer , and his seed ; and the apostles words , cor. . . according to their own exposition , which is , that the children whereof one of the parents is not sanctified by the faith of the other , are federally uncleane ; nor considering that this practise of baptizing all in the parish , arose not from any conceit of the federall holinesse of a nation , but from the conceit of cyprian , with his bishops , that the grace of god is to be denied to none that are borne of men : upon which ground , and the necessitie of baptisme to save a childe from perishing , as of old , so still among the common people , and officiating priests , children are baptized , without any relation to covenant-holinesse , particular or nationall . but i leave this to the independents to agitate , who have in this point the advantage ; and returne to the text , mat. . . concerning which the question is , what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or [ them ] refers to in our saviours words : whether all nations must be the substantive to it , without any other circumscription , or the word , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , men and women , as the author of infants baptizing proved lawfull by scriptures , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , disciples , included in the verbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which may be translated , make disciples . that author denies not , but that the verbe may signifie to make disciples , yet by the subject matter , which it is here taken and used to expresse , it must be taken for to teach , and not to make disciples : because to m●ke disciples was not in the power of the apostles ( upon whom the command lay ) it being the peculiar of god to frame the heart to submit unto and embrace the apostles teaching , and to cast them into the forme and obedience of it , and so to make them disciples : but to teach and thereby endeavour ( as much as in them lay ) to make disciples , was in their power and duty : and is all the whole meaning of the word here , therefore properly , and rightly rendred teach , and not , make disciples . but that the word doth not signifie onely simply , to teach , whether with effect or without , but to teach till they become disciples , is plain by the use of it elsewhere , in all the places it is used in the new testament . mat. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , every scribe that is so taught , as to become a disciple . mat. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , rendere●●y beza , vulgar , ours , &c. who also himselfe was jesus disciple : where the noune 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , disciple , is included in the verbe , and expressed by john , cha. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , being a disciple of jesus . act. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which though our translatours render , and had taught many ; yet beza renders it , discipulos multos adjunxissent , and had joyned many disciples . so plaine it is that the noune 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , disciples , is included in the verbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to make disciples ; and that it is put not for simple teaching that is without effect ; for then the apostle might be said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when he did preach to the athenians who mocked , acts . . and the unbelieving jewes , acts . . for they were taught : but for teaching , cum effectu , with effect , so as that the persons taught became disciples . and mr edwards lately at christ-church averred in all the dictionaries he could peruse , it did not signifie simply to teach , coming from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to learne , he might have added coming from the noune 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a disciple . as for the objection ; christ should command them that which was not in their power . i answer , it was in their power , and their dutie not onely to teach simply , so as to propound things to them , but also so as to bring them to be disciples , which they could doe , not as principall , sole , supreme agents , but as workers with god , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as it is cor. . . subordinate instruments to him they could , in which respect they are called wise master-builders , that beget men by the gospel , save and convert them , espouse them to christ ; &c. even as the knife cuts , though not without the hand ; as an ambassadour makes peace , though not without his prince . and this might be rightly charged to them , as it was charged to peter , to feed christs sheepe , and to strengthen his brethren , though he could doe neither of himselfe . but that author hath another exception , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , disciples , is of the m●sculine gender , and if that were the substantive to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , them , then women should be excluded . to this i answer , that there be hundreds of places , where the masculine comprehends both sexes , as joh. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , every one that believeth , though in the masculine gender , yet comprehends women . rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , upon all men , comprehends women too : and women are comprehended under 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 disciples , acts . . &c. besides that author did not consider it seems , that if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , men , were the substantive , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , them , in the masculine gender were the adjective , women if this reason were worth any thing , should be excluded however . and for that which he saith , " that some say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , them , cannot agree with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nations , because of a different gender , though it may be a reason , an● piscator made use of it thus farre , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 syntaxi refertur ad sensum , non ad vocem : nam praecessit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , them , in the syntaxis is referred to the sense , not to the word , for nations went before : yet i fasten nothing on it , sith it cannot be denied that enallage , heterosis , or change of gender is frequent . but for my part , i conceive that the sense includes both , neither separately , both conjunctly , and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , them , referres both to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , disciples , and to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nations ; thus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , disciples of all nations , and must be thus expounded , make disciples of all nations , baptizing them , that is , the disciples of all nations . and this is agreeable to your paraphrase , pag. . teach the heathen , and jewes , and make them disciples , and then baptize them ; and pag. . make all nations disciples . and beza annot . in matth. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , id est , discipulos mihi f●cite ex omnibus gentibus , make disciples to me of all nations : and a little after ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ergo hoc loco , non neutropassivè pro dis●ipulum esse , sed activè accipitur quasi in conjugatione hiphil , ac si dicas discipulare , to teach therefore in this place is not taken neuterpassively for to be a disciple , but actively , as if it were in the conjugation hiphil , as if you should say , to make to learne . some doe make the substantive credentes , believers , and that parallel place , mark. . . may leade us to it ; but disciples and believers being all one in this matter , it comes to one passe . i rather , as i said , make the substantive 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , disciples out of all nations , for these reasons ; first , because it suits with the expression , joh. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he maketh more disciples and baptizeth ; where making disciples is put before baptizing , and baptizing of christ by his apostles is of disciples : they that were baptized by john , or christs disciples , are every where called the disciples of john , and of jesus , and the doctrine they taught them , their baptisme , acts . , . and elsewhere . secondly , because usually hearing and believing are put before baptizing , acts . . acts . . . acts . . acts . . . and so were called disciples , which shews that the apostles so construed the precept of christ to baptize disciples . besides , if [ them ] were referr●d to nations or men , without due circumscription of disciples or believers , as a limitation , directing whom to baptize , it would follow , that either they might baptize any man or nation in the world , whether taught or not , and if so , then the spaniards practise of forcing droves of indians to baptisme , and that practise of baptizing a kingdome upon the kings conversion and command , without sufficient precedent teaching , were justifiabl● ; or else they must baptize none till all men or all nations were to be baptized together . there hath been vented lately , in a little p●per , a very absurd one , though it be licensed , entituled , a declaration against the anabaptists ; in which the author saith , that making disciples , is to be done by baptizing them ; which if true , then the apostles needed to have done nothing else , in observance of that command of discipling , but to baptize , and it would serve for a good plea for non-preaching , or meer officiating priests : whereas in mark. . . which i think will not be denied to be parallel to this , matth. . . disciple all nations , is preach the gospel to every creature . but this conceit is so absurd , that i presume none that hath any wit will entertain it , though the paper be licensed . that which i have hitherto discoursed , tends to this , to prove , that when christ saith , teach all nations , and baptize them , his meaning is , by preaching the gospel to all nations , make them disciples , and baptize those that become disciples of all nations . now , concerning the position , which after mr. blake and mr. rutherfurd , you seem to imbrace , concerning the federall or externall holinesse of a believing or chosen nation , giving right to the infants of that nation to be baptized . give me leave to argue a little : first , if infants may be baptized , because they are born in a chosen nation , or a believing nation , then there may be a rule whereby we may know when a nation may be called a believing , or chosen nation , when not ; otherwise we should not know when to make use of this title to baptisme , when not : and it were absurd to conceive god should give us a rule , and no direction how to make use of it . but no rule can be assigned whereby to know when a nation is a believing , chosen , or discipled nation , giving right to baptize infants of that nation , when not ; ergo , if it be said they may be known , in that they are descended from such a believer as abraham . i reply , then god would have lef● us a note to know such a nation by , as he did abrahams posterity by circumcision : but there is no such note , nor any such nation marked out ; this were indeed contray to the appointment of admitting all nations . if it be said when the king of a countrey is a believer , this is no rule ; for it may be he may be a believer , and all the rest unbelievers , and then the practice of baptizing infidels afore they are instructed at the command of princes : as when charles the great fo●ced the saxons to be christians , were to be justified . if it be said , the nation is a believing nation , when the representative body believes , and so the children of that people may be baptized : i answer , the representative body may be believers , and the greatest part infidels , papists , &c. these infidels children must then be baptized ; yea , the infidels themselves , by vertue of an implicit faith in their governours faith ; for they are a part of the nation . and therefore if mr. blakes argument be good : the infants of any nation make up a part of the nation , and the nation where they came was to be discipled ; and therefore the infants to be baptized : the same reason holds for infidels of age , for they are a part of the nation . if it be said , it is a believing nation , when the greatest part are believers , how shall that be known ? how shall a minister do when he cannot come to the knowledge of it ? must he stay till they be counted by poll , as the sheriffes do at the election of knights of the shire , and upon certificate that the major part is believing , then baptize ? why did not the apostles so , nor any other ministers to this day ? how ill would it fare with some poor christians , who are but a handfull in respect of the multitude of unbelievers of their own nation , as in the primitive times , when princes and states were adversaries to christianity ? if it be said , when all adulti of ripe yeers are believers , then such a right is asserted as never was , nor perhaps ever will be , except when all israel shall be saved ; and so no infants shall be baptized on this ground . secondly , but , if it could be resolved what number or sort of believers make a believing nation , giving title to infant-baptisme , yet there would be uncertainty concerning the kind of believing , which might denominate a believing or chosen nation , having federall or externall holinesse , such as may create title to the baptisme of infants of that nation . there are some nations that are reckoned among believers , which yet are mis-believers , as heretiques , for instance , the nation of the goths , who were arians ; or grosly idolatrous , as the spaniards , shall they give title to their children to baptisme , when without repentance they cannot be deemed capable of communion in the body of christ ? thirdly , if infants of wicked parents be capable of baptisme , because born in a believing nation , then this priviledge agrees to them , either in respect of their descent , or the place of their birth , or both . if in respect of their descent , then either their descent within mans memory , or their descent beyond all the memory of man. if of their descent within memory and knowledge , then foundlings have no title hereby to baptisme , of whose parentage there is no knowledge , neerer or remoter , who are neverthelesse baptized : if of that beyond memory , it must be upon such a ground , as is common to all infants in the world , which are descended from some believer , in some precedent generation ; or else such a rule must be set down , as hath no certainty in it , by which to administer that ordinance : if from the place of birth only , because the church of god is there , then children of turks or jews are to be baptized , because born in london : if by reason of both , when they concurre , and not otherwise , then the children of an english embassador at constantinople , or agent at aleppo , supposed to be wicked , as the jews that persecuted christ , loose this priviledge , because born out of england : if there be any other nationall respect upon which this supposed priviledge may be fastened , it either hath these or the like inconveniences consequent on it . fourthly , if there be such a federall holinesse of a chosen , discipled , or believing nation as may make the infants of that nation , though their parents be openly wicked , capable of baptisme ; this right must come from some grant or charter or other . we find indeed , god would have the posterity of abraham , and all the males in that nation circumcised : so god appointed it , what ever their parents were , for reasons before rehearsed ; but there is no such grant , promise , covenant , or appointment now to any nation of gentiles , as was then to the posterity of abraham , because the reasons now cease , the messiah is now come , and the prerogatives are now personall , not nationall , not one nation hath priviledge above another as a nation , but personall , as a believer in any nation . as for the text which mr. rutherfurd alledgeth , to wit , rom. . . it hath been examined before , and shewed out of the text , that holinesse of the branches there , is meant personall by faith ; and the objection against it which he makes , to wit , that then the children of a believing parent should be all sanctified , whereas the contrary is manifest : as in absolom , the son of david , proceeds upon this mistake , that by the root and first fruit , are meant any ancestor ; whereas it is meant of abraham the father of the faithfull , as deodate in his annot. on rom. . . or , at most , abraham , isaac and jacob , in whose names all the elect are comprehended , when god calls himself the god of abraham , isaac and jacob , as our saviour intimates , luke . , . mat. . . mar. . , . and for that which he saith , that the jews in pauls time were holy by covenant , howbeit for the present , the sons were branches broken off for unbeliefe , if it be meant of the jews broken off through unbelief , in respect of their present state , they were not holy by covenant . only thus f●r the jewish nation in pauls time is said to be holy , either in respect of the remnant , according to the election of grace , mentioned , vers . . of which he was one ; or in respect of the posterity that should afterwards be called according to the promise of god to abraham , in which sense they were federally holy ; yet this did neither give right for the baptizing of children of unbelieving jewes in pauls time , nor now . and for that which he saith that god hath chosen the race and nation of the gentiles , it is not right : for god hath not chosen simply the race and nation of the gentiles , but a people to himself , out of the race and nation of the gentiles , as it is said , rev. . . thou hast redeemed us to god by thy blood , out of every kindred , and tongue , and nation . as for mr. blakes argument , because it falls in with your reason , i shall answer them together in that which followes . you say ; now we know , that when that one nation of the jews were made disciples , and circumcised , their infants were made disciples ( made to belong to gods school ) and circumcised with them , when that nation was made disciples in abrahams loynes , and circumcised their seed also was the same , when that nation was taken out of egypt , and actually made disciples , their children were also with them . this is your first argument to prove a command by cleare consequence , from mat. . . for baptizing infants . now the strength of it lies in these suppositions , first , that christ did bid them baptize all nations , after the manner that the jews did circumcise one nation . and mr. blake doth conceit this so strongly , that he saith , this cannot be denyed of an● , that will have the apostles to be able to know christs meaning by his words in this enlarged commission . secondly , that the nation of the jews were discipled when they were circumcised . i do not impute it to mr. blake through defect of ability to understand , but through the strong hold which these points have in his minde , that baptisme succeeds circumcision , in the place , roome , and use of it , and the covenant of the gospel is all one , with the covenant made to abraham , that he imagines there should be such an allusion to circumcision , as that the disciples must understand christs meaning , whom to baptize from the precept of circumcision , gen. . but in mine apprehension , there is no colour for such a conceit . 't is true , he enlargeth their commission , and bids them , go and make disciples of all nations ; or , as it is in mark , preach the gospel to every creature , and then to baptize the disciples of all nations ; but this enlargement of commission was not in opposition to the restriction about circumcision , gen. . but in opposition to the restriction , mat. . , . as your self rightly expresse it , pag. . and for that expression , that the nation of the jews were discipled , that their infants were discipled , that the nation was made disciples in abrahams loines ; it is such a construction of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , make disciples , as i believe no lexicon , nor , i think , any expositor to this day made of the word , which plainly signifies so to teach , as that the persons taught do learn , and accordingly professe the things taught ; and our lord christ in mark expresseth it by preaching the gospel , and accordingly , the apostles by preaching , did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , disciple , acts . . which how it can be said of infants that can neither understand , nor speak the doctrine of the gospel preached to them , without a miracle , i know not . i make no question , but abraham did teach his children , and make them disciples , and that the israelites did teach and make disciples of their children , as soon as they could understand the things of god ; but that they should be disciples in abrahams loynes , is such a piece of language as i never read in the bible , nor in any author , but such as torture words to make them speak what they would have them . and sure , if the apostles had understood our saviours command thus : [ disciple all nations baptizing them ; that is , admit the infants of all nations to baptisme , as the jews did the male infants of that one nation to circumcision ] they might have saved themselves a great deal of labour of preaching afore baptisme , and of baptizing females , and would have left us some precedent of such a practice . but you adde further : and we know , that in every nation , the children make a great part of the nation , and are alwayes included under every administration to the nation , whether promises or threatnings , priviledges or burthens , miracles or judgements , unlesse they be excepted : so are they in families , in cities , it being the way of the scripture , when speaking indefinitely of a people , nation , city , or family , to be either saved or damned , to receive mercies or punishments , expresly to except infants , when they are to be excepted , as we see in the judgement that befell israel in the wildernesse ; when all that rebellious company that came out of egypt was to perish by gods righteous doome , their little ones were expresly excepted , numb . . . and in the covenant actually entred into by the body of the nation , nehem. . it is expresly limited to them who had knowledge and understanding : and the disciples who received this commission , knew well , that in all gods former administrations , when any parents were made disciples , their children were taken in with them to appertain to the same school ; and therefore it behooved the lord to give them a caution , for the leaving out of infants in this new administration , that they might know his minde , had be intended to have them left out , which that ever he did , in word or deed , cannot be found in scripture . the lord hath plainly given a caution in scripture for the leaving out infants in this administration acco●ding to ordinary rule : for , in that he directs them to baptize disciples upon preaching , he doth exclude infants , who are not such disciples , nor according to ordinary providence can be . and this the apostles could easily understand , as knowing that under the term disciple , in common speech , and in the whole new testament , those only are meant , who being taught , professed the doctrine taught by such a one , as johns disciples , christs disciples , the disciples of the ph●risees , luke . . the disciples of the perverters , acts . . and accordingly they administred baptisme . and in that christ appoints these to be baptized , he excludes others : for the appointment of christ , is the rule according to which we are to administer holy things , and he that doth otherwise , follows his own invention , and is guilty of will-worship ; and thus we construe the meaning of the holy ghost in other appointments : as , because it is said , cor. . . let a man examine himself , and so let him eat , therefore infants are excluded , though infant-c●●●union was held lawfull and necessary for six hundred yeers in the church : wine is appointed in the eucharist , therefore not water mixt with wine , as the papists contend : water in baptisme , therefore not salt , chrisme , spettle : the preacher to baptize , therefore not women , or private persons : males to be circumcised , therefore no females : two shall be one flesh , therefore no more then two , against polygamie , matth. . . so that unlesse you will alter the definition of wil-worship , according to mat. . . in point of worship , that is excluded which is not expressed . and therefore , whereas you say , [ it behoved the lord to give them a caution for the leaving out of infants in this new administration , that they might know his minde , if that be intends to have them left out , which that ever he did , in word or deed , cannot be found in scripture ] . i may more truly invert thus ; it behoved the lord to give them a precept for the putting in of infants in this ( which you truly call ) new administration , as being not the same with circumcision , that they might know his mind , if that he intends to have them put in , which that ever he did , in word or deed , cannot be found in the scripture . certainly , you may as soon extract water out of a flint , as draw a command to baptize infants out of this scripture , by any expresse terms , or virtuall consequence : but the ordinary baptizing of infants is , and may be proved from this text to be a wil-worship , if this scripture be the rule of administring ordinarily that ordinance , which it indeed is , and hath been still taken to be . as for that which you say , the children make in every nation a great part of the nation , so do the infidels that are adulti , of ripe yeers ; and yet are not therefore included in this speech , teach all nations , and baptize them ; and as for that which you say , the children are alwayes included under every administration to the nation , whether promises or threatnings , priviledges or benefits , mercies or judgements , unlesse they be excepted ; therefore here infants are included , when it is said , go teach all nations , baptizing them . i answer : fi●st , that this speech in so universall and ample expressions , if understood of temporall judgements and mercies , is contrary to ezek. . . jer. . , . isai. . . and . . if of eternall , as it seems you mean , when you say , [ to be either saved or damned ] it is contrary to rom. . . . . rom. . . secondly , if it were true , yet makes nothing to the purpose , sith this prec●pt is not an appointment to baptize all nations as nations without a● further circumscription , for then every person in the world might be ●aptized , but disciples of all nations ; and therefore it is not a nationall priviledge , but a personall , belonging to disciples or believers of every nation . and for that which you say , the disciples who received this commission , knew well , that in all gods former administrations , when any parents were made disciples , their children were taken in with them to appertain to the same school ; if it be thus understood , that god required that parents being called , should instruct their children , and so the children in potentia propinqua , in a neer possibility , were disciples , it is granted , according to that which god speaks of abraham , gen. . . and requires of the israelites , deut. . . but if you mean it thus , that the disciples knew , that when any parents were made disciples , barely and precisely for this reason without any other , the children were actually disciples , and so to have baptisme administred to them , it is an untruth , that hath no ground for it . but you have yet somewhat more to say for infants being disciples ; and therefore you thus answer an objection . if it be said they are not capable of being disciples , i answer , as capable as the infants of the jews and proselytes were when they were made disciples . it is granted , but neither were the infants of jews or proselytes capable of being actually disciples in an ordinary way , nor are ours . you go on : and besides , they are devoted to be disciples , being to be trained up by their parents , who are from their infancy to teach them the knowledge of christ. it is hard to say , that parents are to teach infants from their infancy the knowledge of christ : for , though it is said of timothy , thou hast known the holy scriptures , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , tim. . . yet our translators would not render it from an infant , but from a child . but however , if their parents be to teach them from their infancy , and the parents devote them to be disciples , yet this doth not make them disciples actually , but potentially , they may never be disciples for all that . but you tell us : and at the present , they are capable of his own teaching . i deny not but infants are capable of christs own teaching , yea , of actuall faith , yea , of actuall profession of faith . the same power that could make john baptist in his mothers womb sensible of the presence of christs mother , and to leap for joy , that could open the mouth of balaams asse , can out of the mouth of babes and sucklings perfect praise . but then this is done in an extraordinary way , and extraordinary accidents make not an ordinary rule . but you adde : and su●e i am , in christs own dialect , to belong to christ , and to be a disciple of christ , or to bear the name of christ , are all one ; and that such infants do belong to christ , and bear the name of christ , i have sufficiently proved already , and in the margine you cite mat. . . mar. . . mat. . . mr. blake pag. . seems to triumph in this argument , when he saith : who then is not afraid to refuse them , who will receive christ ? who will not baptize them , that is willing to baptize disciples in the name of christ ? but this is a triumph afore victory . the plain truth is , there 's never a one of all the three texts , speaks of little ones in respect of age . the first , mat. . . is meant of the apostles ; and as beza in his annotations sayes rightly , parvos vocat per concessionem suos discipulos , homines nimirum coram mundo viles & abjectos , he calleth his disciples little ones by concession , to wit , men vile and abject before the world ; so that they are called little , in respect of their outward estate in the world , not in respect of age . the second text , mar. . . hath not the term little ones , or children at all , and it is expresly meant of the apostles , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , because ye belong to christ. the third text , matth. . . is as little to the purpose . for , first the word is not infant , but little childe , who may be one able to speak : secondly , one such little child , is not meant of a little childe in age , but a little child in affection , though an old man in age , resembled by a little child , as appeareth out of vers . . one that is converted , and made as a little child , vers . . one that humbles himself as a little childe , vers . . one of those little ones that believe in him . and therefore beza rightly on vers . . hath this annot. puerulem talem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , id est , quempiam ita se demittentem , ut puerum referat : nec enim proprie de pueris agit ; such a little childe , that is , any one that doth so humble himself , that he resembles a little childe : for he doth here properly deale concerning children : and so the syriack interpreter , qui sit sicut puer iste , who may be as this boy . but you have yet one place to prove that infants are disciples , which you thus expresse . and i desire it may be seriously weighed , whether that expression , acts . . now therefore why tempt yee god , to put a yoak upon the necks of the disciples , do not necessitate us to give the name of disciples to infants , as well as to grown men : for i reason thus ; all they upon whose necks those false teachers would h●ve put the yoak of circumcision , are called disciples , and to be called disciples ; but they would have put the yoak of circumcision upon infants , as well as grown men ; therefore infants ●s well as grown men are called disciples , and to be called so . the major is undeniable , the minor i prove thus : they who pressed circumcision to be in force according to the manner of moses law , and would put it upon their necks after the manner of moses his law , they would put it upon infants of those who were in convenant with god , as well as upon the necks of those who were grown men ; for so moses law required : but these false teachers pressed circumcision to be in force , as is apparent , acts . . i have seriously weighed this text , acts . . as you desire , and i find no necessity nor colour of giving to infants the name of disciples from that text. and in answer to your argument , though you say , it is undeniable , yet i have the boldnesse to deny the major in your prosyllogisme ; for , though it be true that they are called disciples upon whose necks they would put the yoak of circumcision , yet it is not said , they would put it only on disciples , it is more probable they indeavoured to put it on the necks of all , whether disciples or others , as universally necessary to salvation , v. . and therefore your m●jor is not certain , that all they , upon whose necks those false teachers would have put the yoak of circumcision are called disciples : the minor likewise in your prosyllogisme , i deny and in your latter syllogisme , framed to prove it , i deny the major : for , though i deny not that they would have had infants as well as converted gentiles circumcised ; yet the putting the yoak of circumcision is not actuall circumcision in their flesh , for that they were able to bear for many ages ; and at this day mahometanes and abassine christians do still bear , as well as jews ; bu● the yoak of circumcision is the necessity of it on mens consciences , and therewith the whole law of moses , vers . . and that as necessary to salvation , v. . and therefore peter having said , v. . why tempt ye god to put a yoak upon the necks of the disciples ? addes , v. . but we believe that through the grace of the lord jesus we shall be saved even as they , plainly implying , that the yoak he meant , was the necessity of circumcision , and keeping moses his law to salvation . now , this yoak was not put upon infants , but upon brethren taught the necessity of it , vers . . and thus , like another sisyphus , the stone you roul returns upon you : volvendo saxum sudas , nec proficis bilum , you sweat in rouling a stone , and yet profit not a whit ; and you are so far from proving by virtuall and undeniable consequence , a command to baptize infants of believers , according to ordinary rule , that on the contrary , this text , mat. . . clearly proves infants are not by ordinary rule to be baptized , because disciples of all nations , and no other , are appointed to be baptized ; and therefore baptizing of infants is besides the institution , and so wil-worship . but yet mr. blake hath one text for a reserve , which he thus puts in array : let that text of the prophet be well weighed , where speaking by the spirit of prophecy of the rejection of the jews , and the glorious call of the gentiles in their stead , in that ample way , as it is there set out , hath these words : behold , i will lift up mine hand to the gentiles , and set up my standard to the people , and they shall bring thy sons in their arms ; and thy daughters shall be carried on their shoulders , isai. . . if there were but such an hint , as that by way of prophecy to have left them behind , we should from some have heard of it with a noise . it may be truly said , the alledging this text for infant-baptisme , is but a noise , vox & praeterea nihil , a voyce , and nothing beside , as the spartan said of the nightingal . to it i answer , that the allusion is to nursing-fathers and mothers , carrying children on shoulders , and in their arms , and the speech is metaphoricall , as junius saith in his annot . in locum , haec omnia allegoricè dicuntur , all these things are spoken allegorically , and may be either understood , as he speaks , of the spirituall amplifying of christs kingdom ; and so children were brought on arms and shoulders among gentiles by preaching and instruction , as when the apostle saith , he was gentle among the thessalonians as a nurse that cherisheth her children , thes. . . or , it may be understood of the return of the jews from captivity ; and that the following verses make more probable ; nor is there a word in the text that i observe , of the rejection of the jews , as he sayes , but of their restitution . but if it must be understood properly , which hath no likelihood , it may be as well conceived of bringing their children to have laying on of hands , as baptizing of them . i go on to that which followes in your sermon . another command by good consequence for the baptizing of infants , you shall finde in the forementioned place : when the apostle exhorteth them to repent and be baptized , &c. because the promise was made to them and to their children , which as i shewed clearly proves that the children of such as beleeve and are baptized , are taken into covenant , and therefore by good consequence they are to receive the seale of the covenant , the text not onely shewing that they are within the covenant , but also that a right to baptisme is a consequence of being within the covenant . this text hath been examined before , and it hath been proved that the promise there is the sending of christ , who was raised up to blesse them and their children first , then those that were afarre off , being called , and that the promise doth not belong to their children , as the children of beleevers , but as called , and that the promise is not alledged as of it selfe giving right for them or their children to be baptized , without any other consideration , but as a motive and incouragement for them to repent , and so to be baptized in the name of the lord jesus ; for the remission of sinnes , notwithstanding they had crucified the lord of glory , and wished his bloud to be upon them , and their children ; which being thus rightly understood , is so farre from proving a command to baptize infants , that on the contrary , it proves they are not to be baptized . you say further ; thus for commands : for examples , though there should be none , there is no great argument in it , when the rule is so plaine , yet we have examples enough by good consequence . it is true , if the rule were plaine , there would be no need of an example ; and on the other side , if wee had regulating examples , we should thereby know how to interpret the rule . but whereas you say , wee have examples enough by good consequence , it may be well suspected , these examples will prove like the commands , by consequence meere conjectures and conceits of men that would have it so . but let us heare what you say . for you shall finde , that the gospel tooke place just as the old administration , by bringing in whole families together ; when abraham was taken in , his whole familie was taken in with him ; when any of the gentiles turned proselytes , ordinarily their whole families came in with them ; so in this new administration , usually if the master of the house turned christian , his whole familie came in and were baptized with him ; the whole household of cornelius , the first converted gentile , act. . . the houshold of stephanus , the houshold of aristobulus , the houshold of narcissus , the houshold of lydia , the houshold of the gaoler : these are examples not to be contemned . true : nor any part of holy scripture which is written for our learning , but in all these , there is no example of an infants baptizing in the scripture . you say , the gospel tooke place just as the old administration , by bringing in whole families together . by the old administration , you meane circumcision . but wee doe not finde the gospel or baptisme tooke place just in the manner or circumcision ; for in circumcision , it was but in one familie singled out , of the males onely , whether in the covenant of grace or not , children or servants , elder or younger , at eight dayes old , in the house , by the master of the familie , or others in his stead . but in baptisme it is cleane otherwise , so that you might more truly have said , the new administration of baptisme is just opposite to that of circumcision , yea in respect of that one thing wherein you make them agree so well , the bringing in of whole families together , it was but contingently so , not alwayes so , nor constantly so , according to any promise or prophecy , and when it did so happen , we finde not any infant baptized , nor any intimation of baptizing housholds , in conformitie to the administration of circumcision . and this may appeare by going through the examples of baptizing in the new testament . concerning john the baptist , it is said , mat. . . then went out to him jerusalem , and all judea , and all the region round about jordan , and were baptized of him in jordan , confessing their sinnes . luk. . . and all the people that heard him , and the publicans justified god , being baptized with the baptisme of john ; but the pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsell of god against themselves , being not baptized of him . concerning christ and his disciples , it is said , joh. . , . when the lord knew how the pharisees heard that jesus made and baptized more disciples then iohn ( though iesus himselfe baptized not but his disciples . ) in these examples the practise of baptizing , is not by taking in a familie , but by admitting all that would become disciples over all the countries . after the ascension of christ , the first example of baptisme , is that acts . . and there it is said , they that gladly received the word were baptized ; and these were they to whom he had said , ver . the . the promise is to you and to your children ; and there were added unto them about three thousand soules , and yet never an infant baptized , unlesse we shall take mr thomas goodwins conceit for an oracle ( possibly the more willingly taken up , that it might seeme the more credible , that the church of jerusalem was but one single formed congregation in a church way ) that therefore it is said , there were added three thousand soules ; to intimate , that there were men , women and children added : he might have observed how ridiculous such a conceit is by that which follows , ver . . and they continued stedfastly in the apostles doctrine , and fellowship , and in breaking of bread , and in prayer , and feare came upon every soule , &c. which if he can apply to infants , erit mihi magnus apollo , i shall take his words for oracles . now sure these three thousand soules were not one family . the next example is of the samaritanes , of whom it is said , acts . . that when they believed philip preaching the things concerning the kingdome of god , and the name of jesus christ , they were baptized men and women . where it is plaine , that in a manner the whole citie were baptized ; for ver . . it is said , the multitude with one accord ga●e heed to that which philip spake ; ver . . simon himselfe that did before lead them , now believed ; and ver . . samaria received the word of god , and yet not an infant mentioned to be baptized , but those that believed , and received the word of god ; nor was this administration by taking in of a familie , but rather of a citie . the next are of the eunuch , acts . . and paul , acts . . which were single believing persons , not a whole familie . the next is of cornelius , of whom you gather from acts . . " that his whole houshold were baptized . but it is true withall , that his house was not an ordinary familie , but a garrison of souldiers . . that he called together his kinsmen and neare friends , acts . . . that ver . . this whole house feared god. . that no other are nominated to have been baptized , but those who had heard the word , ver . . which spake with tongues , and magnified god , ver . . which received the holy ghost , ver . . who were saved by peters words , acts . . which i presume will not be affirmed of infants . " then you mention the houshold of stephanas , which is said to be baptized , cor. . . and also chap. . . is said to addict themselves to the ministery of the saints . to this houshold most aptly may be adjoyned that which you omit , the house of crispus , concerning whom 't is said acts . . and crispus the chiefe ruler of the synagogue believed on the lord , with all his house , and many of the corinthians hearing believed , and were baptized . where under the tearme houshold , those onely are meant who believed , and those that among the corinthians were baptized , are said first to heare and believe . you put in the houshold of aristobulus , the houshold of narcissus , and you doe allude to rom. . , . but these are onely brought in to make a number . for though our translators in the text , reade of aristobulus and narcissus houshold , yet in the greeke it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which cannot well be translated of the houshold of aristobulus and narcissus , but rather as beza , ex familiaribus , and as our translators in the margin , of the friends of narcissus ; and if it were translated houshold , yet proves not that the whole families were christians , but some of them . the next you mention , is the houshold of lydia , of whom it was said , that shee was baptized , and her houshold , acts . . but this must be understood by other places , which when they expresse the baptizing of the houshold , they expresse also the believing , or receiving of the word by the whole houshold , and by the frequent use of the word , which is to put the house for the people of growth in it ; as , mat. . . mark. . . & . . luk. . . joh. . . acts . . tim. . . the last you mention , is the houshold of the gaoler ; concerning whom it is said , that he was baptized , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , act. . . i remember mr edwards at christs-church indeavoured lately to gather from this expression , that because it is said , [ all his were baptized ] therfore his young children or infants , but this is but a light conjecture , and the text sufficiently refutes this glosse : for ver . . immediately precedent expresseth who those [ all his ] were , to wit , all those in his house to whom paul had spoken the word of the lord ; and ver . . immediately subsequent , which saith , that he rejoyced , believing in god , with all his houshold . but mr william cooke , pag. . hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a wise remedy to cure this : he tels us thus , i conceive it might be rendered more agreeably to the signification of the words , the scope of the place , and the avoyding of ambiguitie . and having believed in god , he rejoyced , exulted , or testified his joy openly by words and actions in all his familie , or through his house , or all his house over . but it is not worth while to refute this conceit at large , it is agreeable enough to the scope , order , meaning and signification of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , with all his house , to joyne it with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , believing , and to expound it as beza , cum universa domo , with the whole house , and the vulgar , cum omni domo , with all the house , rather then in domo , in the house , and to make it answer to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , with all his house , acts . . to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , with all his house , acts . . so that a● yet it doth not appeare that either one infant was baptized , or that the gospel tooke place just as the old administration , by bringing in whole families together . yea the contrary appeares out of the pet. . . & cor. . . . that the husband was converted sometimes without the wife , and on the contrary , cor. . . & tim. . . phil. . . in the house of infidel masters were converted servants , and on the contrary , philem. . . , , . and our lord christ foretold it should be so in the preaching of the gospel , mat. . , . wherefore i much marvaile at the speech of mr blake , pag. . we have examples not to be contemned of the baptizing whole housholds , and whether infants were there or no , as it is not certaine , though probable , so it is not materiall , the president is an houshold ; he that followeth the president , must baptize housholds ; it appeares not that any wife was there , yet he that followes the president in baptizing of housholds , must baptize wives , and so i may say servants , if they be of the houshold . which speech , though it containes onely dictates , and might be let passe , yet it is not fit to leave it without some animadversions . for if it be true , that the president is an houshold , and wee must baptize households , i aske whether we must baptize wife and servants , because they professe the faith , or because they be of the houshold : if the first be said , then the president is not of baptizing housholds , but baptizing a professor of the faith , which is the thing the antipaedobaptists contend for ; if because of the houshold , whether professing faith or not , then an unbelieving wife or servant should be baptized , because they are of the houshold , unlesse it be supposed , that in an houshold when the master or a husband is a believer , the wife and servant cannot be an unbeliever , the contrary whereof hath appeared above : but this i believe , none will deny to be absurd , and heterodox , and consequently that speech of mr blakes is very absurd , that i say no worse of it . to which i adde , that mr blake gives no reason , nor i thinke can , why the baptizing of housholds , acts . should be the precedent for baptizing rather then the baptizing samaria , act. . . the . acts . . all judea , mat. . . so that in fine , it appeares that the administration of baptisme is not just as the administration of circumcision , and that though it be true , that sometimes housholds were baptized , yet it is said , those housholds received the word , and the word houshold , is often put for the growne people of it , and therefore as yet there is no example in scripture to justifie the baptizing of infants , according to ordinarie rule . as for the objection of the houshold , eating the passeover , and the answer to it , i shall let it passe now , because it will come againe in the last objection of the fourth part of your sermon . and thus i have at last examined your first and maine argument . your second , it seemes , you make lesse account of , and therefore i shall sooner dispatch the answer . thus you frame it . the second argument : to whom the inward grace of baptisme belongs , to them belongs the outward signe , they ought to have the signe , who have the thing signified , the earthly part of the sacrament must be granted to those who have the heavenly part : but the infants of believers , even while they are infants , are made partakers of the inward grace of baptisme , of the heavenly and spirituall part , as well as growne men : therefore they may and ought to receive the outward signe of baptisme . the major proposition , that they who are made partakers of the inward grace , may not be debarred of the outward signe , is undeniable : it is peters argument , acts . can any forbid water , that these should not be baptized , who have received the holy ghost as well as wee ? and againe , for as much as god gave them the like gift , as he did unto us , what was i that i could withstand god ? and this is so cleare , that the most learned of the anabaptists doe readily grant , that if they knew any infant to have received the inward grace , they durst not deny them the outward signe , and that the particular infants whom christ took up in his armes and blessed , might have been baptized . the question between us is , whether the infants of believers universally , or indifferently , are to be admitted to the sacrament of baptisme , according to ordinary rule . now i suppose you doe not hold that the infants of believers indifferently have actually the thing signified by baptisme , that is , the holy ghost , union with christ , adoption , forgivenesse of sinnes , regeneration , and everlasting life : for then they are all sanctified , and are all believers , and if this could be proved , there would be no question about paedobaptisme , the texts , act. . . act. . . act. . . would undeniably prove it , and therefore there is no antipaedobaptist , i thinke , but will grant your major ; that regenerate persons united to christ , whose sins are forgiven , adopted persons that have received the holy ghost , are to be baptized . but i conceive , though in the laying down the major , you use these phrases [ who have the thing signified , who have the heavenly part ] : and in your minor [ are made partakers ] ; yet you do not mean in this assumption , actuall having , and being made partakers of the inward grace of baptism ; concerning which , the antipaedobaptists do so readily grant the major : but a potentiall having , or , as you after speak , being capable of the inward grace ; and so you use the fallacy of equivocation : in the major , [ having ] being understood of actuall having , and in the minor of potentiall , which makes four terms , and so the syllogisme is naught : or , if you do mean in both actuall having , you mean it only of some infants of believers , not of all , of whom the question is , and so your conclusion is but particular , that some infants of believers , who are sanctified actually , are to be baptized . but this will not reach home to your tenet or practice , concerning the baptizing of all infants of believers , in as much as they are the children of believers , without the consideration of actuall faith or sanctification . it is true , the lutheranes do teach , that infants have actuall faith , and are regenerate in baptisme , and therefore , in colloquio mompelgar●ensi , upon the fourth artic. de baptismo , they put these among the positions they reject , as contrary to the scripture : non omnes infantes qui baptizantur gratiae christi participes esse , & regenerari , infantes carere fide , & nihilominus baptizari ; that all the infants which are baptized , are not partakers of the grace of christ , and regenerate ; that infants want faith , and neverthelesse are baptized . and i remember , when i lived in oxford , there was a book published in english , of baptismal initiall regeneration of elect infants , the position whereof was opposed , as favouring the doctrine of conferring grace by baptisme , ex opere operato , by the work wrought , and intercision of regeneration , sith according to that doctrine , a person might have the spirit initially , in infancy ; and though it could not fall away finally , as being an elect person , yet might run out in a continued course of sinning grosse and scandalous sins with full consent untill his dying day ; which doth enervate the urging of that text , john . . against apostasie of regenerate persons , when out of it is proved , that raigning sin is not in the regenerate , and the like texts , which in that controversie are urged against arminans . with that book dr. featley in his late feeble , and passionate tract against anabaptists , and antiprelatists concurs , pag. . in these words : nay , so farre are they from excluding faith from infants that are baptized , that they believe , that all the children of the faithfull , who are comprised in the covenant with their fathers , and are ordained to eternall life , at the very time of their baptisme receive some hidden grace of the spirit , and the seed of faith and holinesse , which afterwards bears fruit , in some sooner , in some later . and since i came to london , i met with a book , intituled , a christian plea , for infants baptisme , by s.c. who holds positions somewhat like to the lutherans , that though children of believing parents be not all holy and righteous , they may degenerate , apostatize , yet the infants of believing parents are righteous by imputation , are believers and confessors imputatively , &c. pag. . and elsewhere . and he hath this passage , pag. . it is a sure truth , that the sins of the parents , being forgiven , the lord will not impute the same unto their infants . originall sin , i say , taketh no more hold on the infants then on their parents ; and touching actuall sin , they are as clear as their parents . many more like passages there are in that book , these i mention , that you may see what stuffe paedobaptists do feed the people with . but i suppose you do not hold , that all infants of believers , either actually or initially , or imputatively , are sanctified , regenerated , adopted , justified , as knowing how contrary this is to rom. . , &c. to daily experience , to the doctrine of beza and his collegues , at mon●pelgart , to the reformed churches of geneva , &c. and what advantage it gives to papists , lutherans , arminians , and those that follow the way of tomson in his diatribe , of which i suppose you are not ignorant ; and therefore conceiving you orthodox in this point , the answer to your syllogisme is either by shewing it doth not conclude the question , if your minor and conclusion be understood of actuall having the inward grace , and they be particular only . if you understand them of actuall having , and they be universall , then i deny your minor. if your major be understood of potentiall having , i deny it , if of actuall , and the minor be of potentiall , there be four terms , and so the syllogisme is naught . take away the ambiguity of your terms , and the answer is easie . but for the proof of your minor , you say thus : and for the assumption , or minor , that the infants of believers , even while they are infants , do receive the inward grace as well as grown men , is as plain , not only by that speech of the apostle , who saith , they are holy , but our saviour saith expresly , mark . that to such belongs the kingdome of god , as well as to grown men ; and whereas some would evade it , by saying , that the text saith not , to them belongs the kingdome of god , but of such is the kingdome of heaven , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of such like , that is , such as are graced with such like qualities , who are humble and meek , as children are : and that luke . is parallel to this in the meaning of it : whosoever doth not receive the kingdome of heaven as a little child , be shall not enter therein . but i answer , though it be true , that in other places this is one use that christ makes of an infants age and condition , to shew , that such as receive the kingdome of heaven , must be qualified with humility , &c. like unto children ; yet here it cannot be his meaning , because his argument is , suffer them to come to me , and forbid them not , because of such is the kingdome of god , that i● , my church and kingdome is made of those , as well as of others . this was the very cause , why the disciples rebuked those who brought the children to christ , because they were little , not fit to be instructed ; and therefore not fit that christ should be troubled about them ; this christ rebukes in them , and tels them , that the littlenesse of children , is no argument why they should be kept from him : suffer them , said he , to come , and forbid them not , for of such is the kingdome of god ; and what kinde of argument had this been , if the text should be interpreted as these men would have it ; suffer little children to come unto me , that i may touch them , take them up in mine arms , put my hands upon them , and blesse them , because the kingdome of god belongeth to them , who have such like qualities , who resemble children in some select properties ? by the very same ground , if any had brought doves and sheep to christ to put his hands upon them , and blesse them , the disciples had been liable to the same reproof , because of such is the kingdome of god , such as are partakers of the kingdome of god , must be endued with such like properties . the minor to be proved is , that all the infants of believers , or the infants of believers in as much as they are infants of believers , are actually partakers of the inward grace of baptisme , else your argument will not serve for your purpose , as hath been shewed . now neither doth the apostles speech , cor. . . prove it , as hath been shewed above ; nor doth this text , mar. . . prove it . for , first , it is doubtfull , whether these were infants or no. i presume you are not ignorant , that piscator observat : in mat. . . doth maintain that the speech of christ , is not of infants , but of children which were capable of instruction , which he gathers from this , that christ called them , luke . . and whereas it is said in mark , he took up in his arms , the word so translated , is used mark . . for the imbracing of those that were of some growth , whom he placed in the midst , and of whose scandalizing he there warnes ; nor doth the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 used luke . . translated in english infants prove it , for it signifies a childe capable of teaching , as when it i● said , timothy knew the sacred scripture from a childe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , ever sinne he was a boy , not an infant ; nor doth the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated brought unto him prove that they were infants : for the same word is applied to them that were guided , though they were not carried , but did go by themselves , as the blinde and deaf daemoniake , matth. . . and the lunatick childe , matth. . . to this purpose piscator . as for mr. thomas goodwins reason from julius pollux , that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie one that is madidus , moist or sappie , it is of no force to prove that they were infants : for besides , that not etymologie , but use must expound words ; if it were so , yet we know children are moist , till they be adolescentes , youths ; we say , till they be of good yeers , they are but a gristle , tender , green ; so that notwithstanding this , the children brought to christ , might be of yeers sufficient to be catechumeni , and yet fit enough to resemble humility and harmlesnesse by . secondly , it is yet doubtfull whether our saviour said , of them is the kingdome of heaven ; for the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of such , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of these : and luke . . mark . . both adde this speech , verely i say unto you , whosoever doth not receive the kingdome of god as a little childe , shall not enter therein ; like to which is that matth. . . but you have two exceptions against this : first , because this had been no reason why they should suffer these little children to come to him , because , of such is the kingdome of god : secondly , he might as well have said , suffer sheep , or doves to come to me ; for of such is the kingdome of god. to these exceptions it may be replied , the reason may be thus conceived ; therefore you should not despise that age as prophane , and keep them from me , for even they that are my disciples , must become children again , in putting off their vices , being converted , unlearning what they have learned , becoming humble and docible , which things could not be resembled by sheep and doves . thirdly , but let it be granted , that these were infants , and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is to be expounded as beza in his annot. on mat. . . horum & similium , these and the like , yet there is no certainty , only conjecture , that they were believers infants . for , though christ was in the coasts of judea then , yet it might as well be , that the children were brought by others as parents , and that without faith in christ , as the messiah , upon the fame of his miracles , and the conceit he was a prophet , and so they might bring children to him to be blessed , as jacob and esau , by isaac , josephs children by jacob , &c. fourthly , but let it be granted they were the infants of believers , and that it is said , of these is the kingdome of god , it may be , as piscator observes , referred not to thei● present estate , as if for the present they were in the kingdome of god , that is , believers and justified ; but that they were elect persons , and so in time of them should be the kingdom of god : now that which gives right to baptisme , 〈◊〉 the present estate of a person . fifthly , but let that be also granted , yet all this proves not your minor , unlesse you can prove , that the reason why the kingdome of heaven belongs to infants , is common with these to other infants of believer● , and the reason why their● is the kingdome of god , is , because they were the infants of believers , that ●o it may be true of all the infants of believers . but this cannot be true , being contrary to expresse scripture , rom. . , , . . and inferring this error , that a childe hath right to the kingdom of god , in that he is the childe of a believer : and experience proves innumerable of them have no interest in the kingdome of god. besides , this reason may be given , why these infants did belong to gods kingdome , because they were such as christ would blesse , and then all that you can gather from hence will be , that of the infants of believers whom christ blesseth , is the kingdome of heaven . but this will never prove your assumption , except you can prove that christ blesseth all the infants of believers . lastly , christs action in this businesse is proper to him , as the great prophet of the church , and extraordinary , and therefore yeelds no ground for an ordinary rule of baptizing by the publique ministery . and , if an ordinary rule should be made in imitation , of it , it would serve better for the proving the sacrament of confirmation , which art. . of the church of england puts among things , grown from a corrupt following the apostles , then baptisme . and in all probability , if christ would have this accident to be a rule or precedent for bringing infants to him by a visible signe in the new testament , as mr. thom●s goodwin at bow dictated , he would have appointed his apostles to have baptized these infants as a samplar . for which reason , it seems to me , that this example rather shews christ would not have infants baptized , then that he intended to make this accident a precedent for paedobaptisme . but you will prove your minor by reasons , and thus you reason : beside , what one thing can be named , belonging to the initiation and being of a christian , whereof baptisme is a seal , which infants are not capable of as well as grown men ; they are capable of receiving the holy ghost , of union with christ , of adoption , of forgivenesse of sins , of regeneration , of everlasting life ; all which things are signified , and se●led in the sacrament of baptisme . i may apply to you the words of horace , amphora coepit institui , currente rota cur●●recus exit ? a barrell began to be made , why the wheel running doth a pitcher come forth ? the thing you should prove is , that all the infants of believers , are actually partakers of the inward grace of baptisme ; but in stead of this , you prove , they are capable of it ; they may have it , but doth it therefore follow , that they actually have it ? it was once an axiome in the schools ; a posse ad esse non valet argumentum , from it may be ●o it is , an argument holds not ; and i think it is so still . besides , must children be baptized , because they are capable of grace ? then may all children be baptized , for they are all capable of the inward grace of baptisme . but you have yet something more to say . and it is further considerable that in the working of that inward grace , of which baptisme is the signe and seal , all who partake of that grace , are but meer patients , and contribute no more to it then a child● doth to its own begetting , and therefore , infants as fit subjects to have it wrought in them as grown men ; and the most grown men are in no more fitnesse to receive this grace when it is given them in respect either of any faith or repentance , which they yet have , then a very little childe , it being the primary intention of the covenant of grace in its first work to shew what free grace can , and will do to miserable nothing , to cut miserable man off from the wild olive , and graffe him into the true olive , to take away the heart of stone , ●o create in them a heart of flesh , to forgive their iniquities , to love them freely ; what doth the most grown men in any of these more then an infant may do , being only passive in them all ? and of this first grace is the sacrament of baptisme properly a seal . that which you say , it is true , is further considerable ; but to what purpose it is here brought in , i cannot readily divine , whether it be for a proof of the minor of your syllogisme ; or that which you said immediatly before , that infants are capable of the inward grace of baptisme ; or whether you would make a further argument for infant-baptisme thus : baptisme is to be given to those that are capable of the first grace as well as grown men ; and the proof of this seems to be , because baptisme seals properly the first grace . but infants are capable of the first grace as well as grown men , and the proof of this seems to be , because all who partake of that grace , are but meer patients , &c. therefore infants are to be baptized as well as grown men . if this be your argument , the major is to be denyed : for , a person is not to be baptized because he may have grace , but because he hath it . and for the reason , that baptisme seals properly the first grace , it is obscure , what you mean by the first grace is not cleare . if the free favour of god , mentioned before , when you say , [ to love them freely ] this indeed is the first grace simply gods eternall love and election ; and i deny not but baptisme seals it in some sense properly , and so doth the lords supper as properly ; if you mean by the first grace the covenant of grace , which is the first transient act of grace , that also is sealed properly in baptisme , and as properly in the lords supper : if you mean the first grace in execution , it is uncertain which you put first , justification or regeneration , or , as some , adoption : and then which is the second grace is uncertain , whether after-sanctification , cooperating , concomitant , subsequent grace , sustentation against temptations , remission of sins , hearing prayers , or eternall glory . now , i do not well understand in what sense , or why baptisme seals properly rather the first grace then the second , sith according to your doctrine it is a seal of the covenant of grace ; and therefore of all the promises in it ; nor can i tell , why it should be said , that baptisme seals the first grace properly , rather then the lords supper . i confesse in exactnesse of speech , baptisme seals no grace , first or second , properly , taking it for propriety of speech , but improperly , because metaphorically , as sealing is taken for assuring . and if properly notes propriety of right , or title , or possession in opposition to anothers ; or that which is alien , i see not how baptisme doth seal , that is , assure the first grace in respect of the propriety of right more then the second , or more then the lords supper . and therefore your speech seems to me very ambiguous : and for the minor , as i conceive , you frame it , that infants are capable of the first grace as well as grown men , it is true , and so they are of the second , or at least some of them ; but both by extraordinary working . as for receiving grace by ordinary means , they are not capable of one or other . and for the speeches which you heap together , though i grant that in the first conversion , in the sense that some learned men understand it , we are meerly passive ; yet i doubt whether dr. twisse , and such as have most acutely handled the controversie about the irresistibility of grace in the first conversion , will subscribe to those speeches of yours , when you say , all who partake of that grace , are but meer patients , and contribute no more to it , then a childe doth to its own begetting ; and therefore infants as fit subjects to have it wrought in them , as grown men , and the most grown men are in no more fitnesse to receive this grace when it is given them , in respect either of any faith or repentance which they yet have , then a very little childe . what doth the most grown man in any of these , more then an infant may do ? being only passive in them all . if my memory deceive me not , the divines of great britain at the synod of dort in their suffrage , did set down some things which might be done in respect of faith or repentance , when grace is given , by grown men , more then an infant can do , and so doth in like manner mr. rutherfurd , the triall and triumph of faith , serm. . pag. , . and though you say , the most grown men are only passive in them all , yet d ● . twisse in his vindiciae gratiae , lib. . errat . . sect. . thought this subtilty necessary , that the will in the first conversion , is meerly passive , as the willing of the will is taken for●ally , as being in the subject ; but as it is taken efficiently , it being a vitall act , so it is not meerly passive in the first conversion . and dr. preston in his acute exercitation , de irresistibilitate gratiae convertentis , hath these words : nos sustinemus voluntatem in primo actu conversionis , partim passivè , partim activè , id est , prius passivè , dein activè se habere , ideoque cum deo cooperari ; we hold the will in the first act of conversion , to be partly passive , partly active , that is , first of all to be passive , then active , and therefore to cooperate with god. it is true , the acts of taking away the heart of stone , creating a heart of flesh , forgiving iniquity , loving freely , as they are acts of god , a man is neither active nor passive in them , they are not in man as the subject , nor from man as the agent ; only we may be said to be passive , or active , in respect of the terminus , or effect of them , a new heart , faith , or repentance , produced by them ; and in respect of this , in some sense , we are meerly passive , in some , partly active , and partly passive in the first conversion , according to the doctrine of the two learned doctors forenamed . you conclude this argument with this speech : and whoever will deny that infants are capable of these things , as well as grown men , must deny that any infants dying in their infancy , are saved by christ. concerning which speech , if you mean that infants are capable of these things as well as grown men simply , in respect of the things , it is true that infants are capable of them as well as grown men , and he that denies it denies their salvation : but if you mean it in respect of the modus habendi , the manner of having , then it is not true : for infants are not capable in the same manner of a new heart , faith and repentance , by hearing , and outward ordinances , as well as grown men . but what is all this to prove your minor , which is not of potentiall having inward grace , which is not denied , but of actuall having ? and so still it remains unproved ; that all the infants of believers , or the infants of believers as such are actually partakers of the inward grace of baptisme . and thus have i at last , examined the third part of your sermon , containing your arguments from scripture for paedobaptisme . i proceed now to examine the last part , which followes . infant-baptisme , is a corruption of the ordinance of baptisme . part . iiii. concerning the objections against infant-baptisme . against this argument severall things are objected , which i shall indeavour to r●move out of the way : first , it is said , that although infants are capable of these things , and they no doubt are wrought by christ in many infants , yet may not we baptize them , because according to the scripture patterne , both of christs command , mat. . in his institution of baptisme , where this was injoyned , and john the baptist , christs disciples and apostles , they alwayes taught , and made them disciples by teaching , before they baptized any . it is true , the institution of christ , mat. . . and the practise of john baptist , and the apostles , are the great objections against paedobaptisme ; this principle being laid down as a truth avouched against the papists , by protestants generally , that it is a sinne of prophaning the sacraments , when the institution is altered , by substraction , as when the cup is denied to the lay people , or by addition , as when chrisme and spittle , &c. are added to the elements : and by the non-conformists conformists of england , that it is will-worship to administer the sacraments any other wayes , by addition of any thing to them , but circumstances , which are alike requisite to civill actions ; now the persons to be baptized cannot be conceived a meere alterable circumstance , but to belong necessarily to the administration or worship , as the person baptizing , and as the persons receiving the lords supper , and therefore there must be warrant from institution for it , else it is a sinfull invention of man. but neither christs institution , or john the baptist , or the apostles practise , doe warrant the baptizing of infants , therefore it is will-worship : that the institution , mat. . . doth not warrant the baptizing of infants , is proved . . because the institution appoints onely disciples of all nations to be baptized ; but infants are not such : therefore the institution doth not warrant their baptisme . the major and minor of this syllogisme have been made good , part. . sect. . . because the order christ appoints is , that teaching or preaching the gospel , should goe before baptisme ; now the order of christ , is a rule of administring holy things , as we argue in like manner , cor. . . the apostle appoints that a man is first to examine himselfe , then to eate of that bread ; ergo , children are not to have the lords supper ; so in like manner wee may argue , wee must first teach persons , and then baptize them ; therefore children that cannot be taught by us , are not to be baptized ; to that which mr edwards answereth to this argument , that john is said , mark. . . to baptize and preach , i oppose the words of beza annot . in mark. . . quod autem erasmus subjungit joannem priùs baptizâsse , deinde praedicâsse baptismum , ejusmodi est ut ne refutatione quidem videatur indigere . quid enim ? cum diceret joannes , poenitentiam agite , appropinquat enim regnum coelorum , non docebat quos erat baptizaturus ? imò ve●ò nisi priùs docuisset in quem finem baptizaret , quis tandem ad ejus baptismum accessisset ? certe cum sacramenta sint 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , necesse est ut praeeat doctrina quam obsignent . . because the institution is to baptize into the name of the father , son , and holy spirit , that is , with invocation of the name of the lord , as acts . . paul is bid arise and be baptized , and wash away his sinnes , calling on the name of the lord. which infants cannot doe : with devoting themselves to the service and adherence of the father , son , and holy spirit , which may be gathered from this , that paul said , cor. . . he had baptized none into his name , that is , he had not caused them in their baptisme to devote or addict themselves to him as their master , but infants cannot so devote themselves to christ , therefore they are not to be baptized according to this institution . . christ bids the apostles presently after baptisme teach them to observe what ●ver he commanded them ; but infants cannot doe this , therefore they are not to be baptized . likewise baptizing , infants , doth not agree with the primitive practise of john baptist , and the apostles , who required expressions of repentance and faith afore baptisme , mat. . . mark. . . luk. . . acts . . & . , . . & . . & . . & . , . & . . , , . & . . & . . . . . in which places , profession of repentance and faith is still made the antecedent to baptisme : but this doth not agree to infants , therefore they are not to be baptized . of these arguments you answer onely to the two first from institution , and to the last from example ; to the first from institution , you answered before , and there i examined your answer , part . . sect . , . to the second from institution , and to the last from example , you make some answer here , not denying that the order appointed by christ is first to teach , and then to baptize : for that is so manifest , that your selfe page . doe so paraphrase the words , when you say , expresse command there is , that they should teach the heathen , and the jewes , and make them disciples , and then baptize them : nor by denying that john baptist , and the apostles required expressions of faith and repentance afore baptisme , nor by denying that the institution of christ , and the apostles example , are our rule in the administring the sacraments , so as that we cannot vary from them without will-worship , and prophaning the worship of god by our inventions : for that is so confessed a truth , that there hath been a great while , scarce a sermon before the parliament , but hath asserted that rule , and pressed it on the parliament , and our solemne covenant supposeth it , the churches of scotland , new-england , &c. the sermons in the citie continually a vow it , and urge it , and upon this ground former and later reformations are urged . but you have two miserable evasions ; you say , i answer . first , that of mat. . is not the institution of baptisme , it was instituted long before to be the seale of the covenant , it 's only an inlargement of their commission , whereas before they were onely to goe to the lost sheepe of the house of israel , now they are to goe unto all the world . whereunto i reply , . if this be not the first institution of baptisme , yet it is an institution , and the institution of baptisme to us gentiles , and therefore the rule by which ministers are to baptize , there being no other institution that i know of to regulate our practise by , but such as is gathered from john baptist , the apostles practise and sayings . . if institution or appointment of god must warrant our practise in gods worship , which you once held in the sermon cited before , part . . sect . . then you must shew another institution , else you cannot acquit paedobaptisme from will-worship , and your selfe from breaking the hedge god hath set about the second commandement . but you adde further ; and beside it is no where said , that none were baptized but such as were first taught , and what reason wee have to believe the contrary , you have before seene . your selfe say presently in the next words , it is said indeed , that they taught and baptized , and no expresse mention of any other , then of the baptisme of persons taught , and you assigne a reason of it . and page . your selfe paraphrase the institution , mat. . . expresse command there is , that they should teach the heathen , and the jewes , and make them disciples , and then baptize them : and consequently , there is no expresse command for any other ; and for the reason you have to beleeve that others are to be baptized which are not taught , it hath been examined in the weighing your virtuall consequence , which is grounded upon such a principle , as in time you may see to be a dangerous precipice , how ever for the present the great consent of doctors in the reformed churches dazzles your eyes ; for my part , i cannot yet discerne , but that your grounds for paedobaptisme , are worse then the papists and ancients , who build it on joh. . . rom. . . but you yet adde . secondly , it is said indeed , that they taught and baptized , and no expresse mention made of any other : but the reason is plaine ; there was a new church to be constituted , all the jewes who should receive christ , were to come under another administration : you say right , therefore none other were to be baptized , but taught persons , because though the invisible church of the gentiles were joyned to the invisible of the jewes , rom. . . ephes. . , , . by faith of the gospel , as ephes. . . it is expounded : yet the outward estate of the church is new , and as you say , even the jewes who should receive christ , were to come under a new administration , even those who were jewes by nature and not proselytes , were to be baptized as uncleane persons , contrary to their former administration , in which they were onely circumcised ; and this is a plaine evidence , that the administration of circumcision , is not the administration under which wee are now , but that it did belong to that administration which is now abolished , which is enough to overthrow all your virtuall consequence from circumcision , to baptisme , and consequently all the former dispute of your first argument , in which circumcision of infants is indeed the alone prop of baptizing infants . as for that which you adde , " and their infants were to come in onely in their right . this overthrows your second argument ; for that is grounded upon this , that infants of believers , and particularly infants of believing jewes , such as those are supposed to be mark. . . were partakers of the inward grace of baptisme , and if so , they came in by their own right . but that one mans right to baptisme , should give another right to baptisme , is a position that the scripture doth not deliver , and inwraps sundry errors , which i now omit , because it comes in onely upon the by . but you goe on . and the heathen nations who were to be converted to christ , were yet without the covenant of grace , and their children could have no right , untill themselves were brought in , and therefore no marvaile though both john and christs disciples and apostles did teach before they baptized , because then no other were capable of baptisme . in this perioch , you grant many things which doe yeeld the cause ; for , . you say , that both john and christs disciples and the apostles did teach before they baptized , because then no other were capable of baptisme ; now by this reason you confesse , . that baptizing of infants is not according to johns and christs disciples and apostles practise ; . you say , then no other were capable of baptisme : now this is true , either because then there were no children of believers that might be baptized : but that is absurd , that in all the time of johns and the disciples and apostles ministery , believers had no children to be baptized , and contrary to the allegation of mark. . . and other texts , or because they had no commission ; i cannot conceive how else your speech can be true : but if john , the disciples and apostles had no commission to baptize infants , neither have we , and so to doe it neither have our ministers any commission , for we have no other commission to baptize then they had . but you thinke to salve it thus ; but when once themselves were instructed and baptized , then their children were capable of it by vertue of the covenant . upon which i observe , . if the children were capable when once parents were instructed , and baptized , then they were capable , in johns , and the disciples , and apostles times , and so this speech overthrowes that before , that then no other but taught persons were capable of baptisme . . when you say , the children were capable by vertue of the covenant , it seems you could produce no institution in the new administration , but the institution of circumcision , the validitie of which hath been considered before . besides , the covenant being the same at all times , as your conclus . . holds , the children of believers were as capable in johns time as after . so that your words plainly enterfere . but you put a case to be resolved . if any in the jewish church had received commission to goe and make other cities proselytes to them , their commission must have run thus , goe teach and circumcise , would it therefore have followed , that none might be circumcised , but such as were first taught ? to this i answer , in this commission the precept of circumcising should have had reference in the execution of it , either to the old institution of circumcision , gen. . and then they had been appointed to circumcise males at eight dayes old not taught , or to a new institution , and then it would have been told more plainly , what they were to circumcise and whom , and so they might have resolved themselves . but what this makes for baptisme of infants , i see not , unlesse it be supposed that baptisme and circumcision are all one , which like the string in the lampry is an errour that runs along through your whole sermon . the next objection you thus expresse ; but it is expresly said , that he that believes and is baptized , shall b● saved ; faith in christ is the condition upon which men may be baptized ; and this is the most common objection among the anabaptists , unbelievers may not be baptized ; children are unbelievers , therefore they may not be baptized ; wee have , say they , cleare evidence that faith is a condition required in those that are to be baptized , no evidence of any other condition that makes them capable of baptisme . others of them adde , that under an affirmative command , the negative is to be included , believing is the affirmative , unbelieving is the negative , therefore where believers are commanded to be baptized , unbelievers are forbidden to be baptized : this objection they much glory in , and some of them dare all the world to answer it . the objection framed in this later way i own not , and consequently i may well let passe the answer ; for the truth is , mark. . . is not a command , but an enuntiation ; onely that text , with others , specially that , acts . . where when the eunuch asked philip , what letteth me to be baptized ? philip answered , if thou believest in the lord jesus with all thy heart thou mayest ; and thereby intimated , that faith professed is a prerequisite to baptisme , and the defect of it an hindrance , confirme the objection as it is the first way formed , which may be further strengthned from the baptisme of lydia , the jaylor , crispus , &c. and is confirmed in that in the subsequent practise of baptizing a confession of faith was made by the person baptized , as appeares out of plaine passages in the ancients , justin martyr , tertullian , cyprian , and augustine , lib. . confes . c. . where speaking of one victorinus , who was to be baptized , denique ut ventum est ad horam profitendae fidei , quae verbis certis , retentisque memoriter de loco eminentiore in conspectu populi fidelis romae reddi solet ab iis qui accessuri sunt ad gratiam tuam , &c. lastly , when it was come to the houre of professing the faith , which is wont in certaine words , and gotten by heart to be rendered from an higher place in the sight of the faithfull people at rome by those that shall have accesse in thy grace ; and when it was offered him by the presbyters , that if he would he might then make his confession more secretly , he refused it and made his confession publiquely , with great acclamation . but this is a thing confessed by you , pag. . and it is usually answered , that this was onely in the baptisme of growne men : but infants might be baptized without such a confession . i reply , this answer might serve turne , if either by institution or practise primitive , there could be proved any other baptisme then of confessors of faith : in the meane time , till that be done , the argument is good , sith primum in unoquoque genere est mensura reliquorum ; the first in each kinde is the measure of the rest ; and this was a prerequisite condition in the first practise , therefore it ought to be so still , especially considering that god in his providence hath still preserved in all ages an image of the first practise in the interrogatories propounded to the baptized , even to infants , and thought necessary to be answered by some one for them , and the altering of it hath been a great cause of many corruptions in the church of god , that so men might see what evils have followed the swerving from the rule : and might be directed what is necessary to be reformed . and so i passe to the third ( as you call it ) objection , which you thus expresse . bvt suppose they are capable of the inward grace of baptisme , and that god doth effectually worke in some of the infants of believers , is that sufficient warrant for us to baptize all the infants of beleevers ? if wee knew in what infants the lord did worke , then we might baptize those infants , say some of them : but that he doth not make knowne to us , wee cannot know of any one infant by any ordinary way of knowledge , that they are inwardly baptized with the holy ghost , and therefore wee may not baptize any of them , but waite to see when and in whom god will worke the thing signified , and then apply the signe to them . this that you here put among the objections , is rather an exception to your second argument , grounded on act. . . & . . in answer to which it is granted , that those who have the inward grace , meaning it actually , are not to be debarred of baptisme , for then they are believers and disciples : but then it is rightly added , that this can make no ordinary rule for baptizing the infants of believers indifferently ; sith there is no certainty that any one infant of a believer , now existent , hath the inward grace of baptisme : and it is certain that all have not , and experience sheweth very many have not when they come to age , nor can it be known who have and who have not , but by extraordinary revelation , which if given , would be sufficient authoritie to baptize those infants , though the ordinary rule be not to baptize infants of believers indifferently . as the extraordinary spirit of elijah , and phinehas , and peter , in killing ananias and sapphira , were sufficient authoritie to them to doe those things which agree not with ordinary rule . and this i grant to mr blake , that those that are thus intituled through want of an institution , are not to be excluded : for according to this supposition , in this case , the institution is cleare for them ; for they are sanctified persons , and so believers and disciples of christ , and besides the extraordinary revelation for that end , would be an institution of that particular act . but the thing that he and you would infer from this concession , is that we may then make it an ordinary rule to baptize infants . but that can never be ; for extraordinarium non facit regulam communem , that which is extraordinary , makes not a common rule . if it did , james and john might call for fire from heaven , as elijah did ; a man in his zeale might kill a wicked man without a legall triall , as did phinehas . but let us heare what reply you make to this concession , you say thus ; our knowledge that god hath effectually wrought the thing signified , is not the condition upon which we are to apply the signe , god no where required that wee should know , that they are inwardly and certainly converted , whom we admit to the sacrament of baptisme , the apostles themselves were not required to know this of those whom they baptized , if they were they sinned in baptizing simon magus , alexander , hymeneus , ananias and sapphira , with others : wee are indeed to know that they have in them the condition which must warrant us to administer the signe , not that which makes them possest of the thing signified ; fallible conjectures are not to be our rule in adminis●ring sacraments , either to infants or growne men , but a knowne rule of the word , out of which rule wee must be able to make up such a judgement , that our administration may be of faith , as well as out of charity : in baptizing of grown men , the apostles and ministers of christ administred the signe , not because they conjectured , that the parties were inwardly sanctified , but because they made that profession of faith and holinesse , of which they were sure , that whoever had the thing in truth , were received by christ into inward communion with himself ; and that whoever thus made it , that christ would have them received into the communion of his church , though possibly , for want of the inward work , they were never received into the inward communion with jesus christ. indeed , when such a confession was made , christian charity , which alwayes hopeth the best , and thinketh no evill , bound them to receive them , and think of them , and converse with them , as with men in whom the inward work was wrought , untill they gave signes to the contrary : but this their charity , or charitable conjecture , was not the ground of admitting them to the ordinance , but the profession and confession of the party made , according to the word which they were bound to rest in ; yea , i greatly question , whether in case peter or paul could by the spirit of revelation , have known that ananias or alexander would have proved no better then hypocrites , whether they either would , or ought to have refused them from baptisme , whilest they made that publique profession and confession , upon which others were admitted , who in the event proved no better then those were ; so that i conclude , not our knowledge of their inward sanctification is requisite to the admitting of any to baptisme , but our knowledge of the will of christ , that such , who are in such and such a condition should by us be received into the communion of the church . to the assertion here delivered , i assent , that not our knowledge , that the person to be baptized hath inward grace , is necessary ; but our knowledge of the will of christ , and the person to be baptized , his having the condition , which is the profession of faith and holiness , is sufficient warrant to baptize him . and i agree , that a judgement of charity , is not that a minister is to proceed by in this case , but a judgement of faith , as you speak , and of ministeriall prudence : for a minister in this case is to act as a steward , who is to deal according to his lords will , not his own minde , otherwise his own understanding or affection , which are but a lesbian rule , should be his rule , which would be intolerable . thus far i agree with you : only whereas in the case by you framed , your resolution inclines to the negative , i rather incline to the affirmative , and conceive they would have refused them , and that they ought ; because i conceive the end of such an extraordinary revelation would be to warne them not to admit such persons , and so equivalent to a prohibition ; and in that case the baptizing them , would be a plain prophaning the ordinance , which is not to be given to dogs and swine : and i conceive , that which chamier tom . . panstra . cath. lib. . c. . sect. . speaks in justification of the scrutiny heretofore made in examining the competentes so strictly , confirms this resolution . but to keep to the present businesse , that which is granted , doth neither prove that upon extraordinary revelation of the present inward sanctification of an infant , that infant may not be baptized without staying for its profession : for , though it be true that we are not to stay from baptizing them that professe the faith , because we have not a spirit of discerning to know them to be reall believers , yet we may , having a spirit of discerning that an infant that cannot professe the faith , yet hath true faith , or is inwardly sanctified , baptize that infant without staying for his profession , partly , because of the principle used by peter , acts . . and partly , because the revelation of the faith of that infant to that end , doth authorize that act : nor doth this concession advantage you to prove baptizing of infants by ordinary rule , which is the thing you and mr. blake aim at . but your words concerning the knowledge of the will of christ , as the rule of baptizing , rather advantage the antipaedobaptists , who know no other rule to baptize by , but the condition you truly propound of profession of faith , and therefore conceive your words a good plea for them . but you further say : and in this the rule to direct our knowledge , is as plain for infants as for grown men , the rule having been alwayes this : that grown men , who were strangers from the covenant of god , unbelievers , pagans , heathens , should upon their being instructed , and upon profession of their faith , and promise to walk according to the rule of the covenant , be received and added to the church , and made partakers of the seal of their entrance , and their infants to come in with them , both sorts upon their admission , to be charitably hoped of , untill they give signes to the contrary , charity being bound from thinking of evill of them , not bound to conclude certainly of any of them , because they ought to know , that in all ages all are not israel who are of israel , and that many are called , but few chosen . that the rule for baptizing infants should be so plain , as the rule to direct our knowledge about baptizing grown men , professors of faith , i wonder you should say it , much more that you should preach and print it ; sith your selfe confesse , pag. . no expresse command in the new testament that they should be baptized ; no expresse example where children were baptized : but on the other side , pag. . you say , expresse command there is , that they should teach the heathen , and the jews , and make them disciples , and then baptize them . and i hope you do not imagine , that a rule gathered by virtuall consequence is so plain as that which is expresse ; it may be as true , but it is not possible it should be so plain . but the truth of that additionall rule of infants coming in with their parents , hath been examined , and as yet it hath been found to me , neither plain nor true . you go on to the fourth objection : but all who enter into covenant , and receive the seal of the covenant , must stipulate for their parts , as well as god doth for his ; they must indent with god to perform the believers part of the covenant , as well as god doth to perform his part ; as even this text , pet. . requires , that baptisme which saves us , must have the answer of a good conscience to god. now , although it be granted , that infants are capable of receiving the first grace , if god be pleased to work it in them , yet what answer of a good conscience can there be from infants unto god , they having not the use of reason , and not knowing what the covenant means ? for my part , i own not this objection taken from the generall nature of the covenant , as if it did exclude infants , or that particular text , pet. . . for the word used for a covenant , may be as well translated a testament ; and the holy ghost , gal. . and heb. . doth use it in that notion , and it may be , that covenants of another may be by interpretation of law , as their covenant ; as in the covenant of the israelites with the gibeonites . and for that text , however beza translates 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by stipulation , and in his annotation on that place sayes , the apostle had respect to the interrogations of catechists , in which the catechised even then did witnesse their inward baptisme to be confirmed by the outward , as acts . . whereto , sayes he , belongeth the apostles creed , and that translated from the baptisme of grown persons to the baptisme of infants by a greater error , if you consider the infants themselves : dost thou believe ? i do believe : dost thou renounce ? i do renounce . whence that of tertullian , which is , as it were , in the stead of a commentary on this place , in his book of the resurrection of the flesh ; the soul is established , not by washing , but by answering . i say , though beza do upon second thoughts , and neerer consideration conceive this to be the meaning , yet i build not on it , as being doubtfull , and in mine apprehension , it rather notes an effect of baptisme and the resurrection of christ , then a prerequisite condition ; and there are other plain places before alledged which do prove the thing , that the baptized were to professe and promise ; or , to use your phrase , seal ( which i deny not to be the phrase of john baptist , joh. . . ) as acts . . &c. so that the objection is the same with the second . now let us see what you answer : you say thus , the infants of the jews were as much tied as the infants of believers under the gospel , every one who was circumcised , was bound to keep the whole law , gal. . and these men professe that israelitish infants were within the old covenant , when yet they knew not what it meant , nor could have the same use of it with their parents and others of discretion ; look what answer they will make for the jews infants if true , will abundantly satisfie for the infants of believers under the gospel . it is true , this answer serves turn against those that argue from the generall nature of a covenant ; but it is no answer against those that only urge instituton and apostolicall practice as our rule . as for that which you here , and all along in your book , suppose that there is the same reason of the mixt covenant made with abraham , as with the pure covenant of the gospel , and of every believer , as of abraham , and of baptisme , as of circumcision , it is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , chief error , which misleads you throughout your sermon , and makes you speak and write in a dialect , which in the scripture is unknown . and for that which you say , that the infants of the jews were as much tied as the infants of believers under the gospel ; if you mean it of common duties , of euangelicall obedience , it is true ; if you mean it thus ( which alone serves for your purpose ) that persons to be baptized now , are no more tied to make profession of faith before baptisme , then infants of the jews were tied to make profession of faith afore circumcision , it is false : for , there is now plain text for the requiring of it before baptisme , but not before circumcision . but you say , every one that was circumcised was bound to keep the whole law , gal. . true , and therefore circumcision was in the use of it diametrally opposite to the use of baptisme . you say , and these men professe that the israelitish infants were within the old covenant , when yet they knew not what it meant , and then say , look what answer they will make for the jews infants , if true , will abundantly satisfie for the infants of believers under the gospel . if you mean this concerning the reason why the christians infants should not be baptized , though the jews infants were circumcised , this is a true and satisfactory answer , that god commanded the one , but no where the other ; and your self say , pag. . our knowledge of the will of christ , is that which is the only direction we are to follow . but you adde a second answer , which i let passe , because it is but a declaration of your own conceits , how you conceive a childe may seal the covenant in his infancy , telling us , that their name is put into the deed , and that a child may seal , fi●st in infancy , and then after agnize it ; and that god is pleased to seal to infants while they are such , and to accept such a seal as they can give , without any proof , but only spinning out the simile of a seal ; as if gods wayes were like mans wayes , or a simile did g●●deare in omnibus , a similitude were even in all things ; only where you say , that in the mean time , jesus christ , who is the surety of the covenant , and surety of all the covenanters , is pleased to be their surety ; this speech is further to be examined . 't is true , jesus christ is the surety of a better testament , heb. . . he is the surety of all the covenanters , he doth strike hands , and becomes a surety of the whole covenant , and of every condition in it , take it in the largest sense , and this of all , both on gods part and ours , as very rightly and excellently mr. thomas goodwin in his teatise intituled , christ set forth . sect. . chap. . and to like purpose , mr. rutherfurd , the triall and triumph of faith , serm . . but are any other among men covenanters , but the elect who are purchased by the blood of the everlasting covenant ? heb. . . it is a very inconsiderate boldnesse in you , to make every baptized person , or at least every baptized infant of a believer a covenanter , for whom christ is a surety , and one to whom god seals , when the scripture makes christ the surety only for his redeemed ones , as may be gathered out of sundry places in the epistle to the hebrews ; but i doubt not but when you have considered it a little better , you will easily espie your error in these dictates , and therefore i passe on to the next objection . bvt what benefit comes to children by such kinde of sealing as this is ? it seems then ( say they ) by your own confession , that this is but a conditionall sealing on gods part , viz. that they own it and ratifie it when they come to age ; and if they then refuse to stand to it , all is then nullified ; were it no● therefore better to deferre i● to their yeers of discretion , to see whether they will then make it their own voluntary act , yea or no. in what sense baptiz●ng may be called sealing , i have above shewed , part. . sect. . but i cannot allow of this , to say , that god seals to every one that is baptized . it is true , that baptisme is in its nature a seal of the righteousnesse of faith , pet. . . but yet god doth not seal this to every one that is baptized , but only to true believers : for , what is gods sealing , but the confirming of his promise ? but god promiseth righteousnesse only to believers ; therefore he seals only to believers . as for the sealing by god upon condition persons agnize the covenant , it is but a notion , the scripture makes not gods promise in the covenant of grace conditionall in that sense : for gods promise is for those he enters into covenant with , that he will put his law in their hearts , and in their mindes will write them , heb. . . nor do i know any but corvinus in his examen of moulins anatomy , chap. . sect . . and the arminians , that do so speak of gods covenant of grace , as if it were common to the elect and reprobates , and conditionall in this sense , as if god left it to mens liberty , to whom he had sealed , to agnize or recognize that sealing , or to free themselves , if they please , and so nullifie all ; yet so as to afford them a while the favour and priviledge of being in covenant with him , as you speak . i appeal to them who have been conversant in the writings of the arminians , whether these speeches do not symbolize with their language . and therefore this that you make an objection , i look on as a frivolous supposing a chimaera , and then disputing about it : but yet there are some things i shall take notice of in your answer . the question is , what benefit to infants by such a sealing : you answer thus : this objection lay as strongly against gods wisedome in requiring the jews infants , even in their infancy thus to seal ; and therefore argues no great wisdome , or modesty in man , who would thus reason with god about his administrations . it is true , god appointed the male children of abrahams family to be circumcised , and thereby they were bound to keep the whole law , and it were a sinfull presumption to reason with god about it ; and in like manner , if god had appointed infants to be baptized , it would silence all arguings about it , though we knew not the reason : but how it is to be understood , that god required the jews , even in their infancy to seal , i do not well understand ; our sealing to god is believing , joh. . . i do not finde that god required this of the jews infants in their infancy , nor of our infants ; nor was circumcision it self the infants duty , required by god of the infant , though it were its priviledge , it was the parents duty , exod. . . you say , secondly , god hath other ends and uses of applying the seal of the covenant to them who are in covenant with him , then their present gain , it 's ● homage worship , and honour to himself ; and it behoves us even in that respect , to fulfill all righteousnesse ; when christ was baptized and circumcised , he was as unfit for the ordinance through his perfection , as children through their imperfection , being as much above them as children are below them . it is true , baptisme is a worship of god ; but paedobaptisme , for ought yet appears , is but a will-worship . christs baptisme , it is true , was of a transcendent nature , as is said before ; that children are unfit for the ordinance , is not to be imputed to their imperfection , but to the defect of gods appointment ; if god did appoint it , there would be no doubt of their fitnesse . but you adde further : . i answer , the benefit and fruit of it at the present , is very much , both to the parents and to the children : to the parents , first , whilest god doth thereby honour them , to have their children counted to his church , to his kingdome and family , and to be under his wing and grace , whilest all the other infants in the world have their visible standing under the prince , and in the kingdome of darknesse , and consequently , whilest others have no hope of their childrens spirituall welfare , untill they be called out of that condition , these need not have any doubt of their childrens welfare , if they die in their infancy ; nor if they live untill they shew signes to the contrary ; god having both reckoned them unto his people , and given them all the means of salvation which an infants age is capable of . all this passage is but dictates ; what , or how much of it is true or false , hath been considered before , only that you say ; all the other infants of the world have their visible standing under the prince , and in the kingdome of darknesse ; and consequently , whilest others have no hope of their childrens spirituall welfare , untill they be called out of that condition ; if you mean by all other infants , all that are unbaptized , though the infants of believers in the church , it is a very harsh and uncharitable speech ; and you oppose those that in dispute against the papists concerning the necessity of baptisme to salvation , do hold that infants of believers are holy , and in the church afore they be baptized , and joyn with lutherans and papists , denying it ; if you mean only the unbaptized infants of infidels , what comfort do you give more to believing parents , that have their children baptized , then belongs to them , though their children were not baptized ? and when you say , that all others have no hope of their childrens spirituall welfare , if you mean it of believing parents that baptize not their children , it is in like manner an uncharitable speech , and doth border too neer on the opinion of the necessity of baptisme for infants to salvation ; and when you say , these need not have any doubt of their childrens welfare , if they die in their infancy , if you mean it of parents , because their children are baptized , you do speak like one that did hold that baptisme doth conferre gratiam ex opere operato , conferre grace by the work done ; but for ought you can shew out of scripture , a believing parent hath as much ground of hope for his infant that dies unbaptized as for the baptized , and as much reason of doubt concerning the baptized as the unbaptized . and therefore , what you here speak , doth no whit encourage parents to baptize children , if it be well weighed , except there can be proved an institution and a promise . but you say , secondly , here is much priviledge and benefit to the children , when as ( beside what inward secret work god is pleased to work in them ) they being members of the church of christ , have their share in the communion of saints , are remembred at the throne of grace every day by those that pray for the welfare of the church , and particularly , in those prayers which are made for his blessing upon his ordinances . by your parenthesis , you intimate some inward secret work god is pleased to work in the infants baptized , by baptisme . if you conceive a bestowing of grace , ex opere operato , by the work done : or , baptismall initiall regeneration of the elect , supposed to be in the infants in baptisme , notwithstanding till death they live wickedly , speak plainly that we may know what you mean , and then an answer may be framed to your spe●ch . as for being members of the church , if you me●n the invisible church , neither i nor you can affirm or deny ; it s in gods bosome alone ; if you mean the visible , you must make a new definition of the visible church afore infants baptized will be proved members . for their remembring at the throne of grace daily , if you mean it particularly , and by name , i do not finde that to be in use after baptisme any more then afore , and i think they are remembred by the godly in generall as well afore baptisme as after ; and for the praying for gods blessing upon his ordinances , if infant-baptisme be not gods ordinance , this prayer in reference to infant-baptisme at that time might be better spared . you say ; and lastly , it 's no small priviledge to have that seale bestowed on them in their infancy , which may afterwards plead when they are growne , and come to fulfill the condition . when , where , and how baptisme should be pleaded , as you shew not , neither doe i well conceive . it is not baptisme of it selfe that will yeeld a plea of any force , either in foro soli , in the court of earth , or in foro poli , in the court of heaven , but the promise of god , and the condition of faith in christ. and these will be good pleas in praye●s to god , and in the court of conscience , when infant-baptisme will stand in no stead . the plea of the apostle will hold , rom. . , , , . which baptisme rightly administred doth strengthen , pet. . . but i never knew any saint that pleaded his infant-baptisme in such cases . you say further ; but if their being capable of the spirituall part , must intitle them to the outward signe , why then doe we not also admit them to the sacrament of the lords supper , which is the seale of the covenant of grace , as well as the sacrament of baptisme ? and this is urged the rather , because ( say they ) the infants of the jewes did eate of the passeover as well as were circumcised ; now if our infants have every way as large a priviledge as the infants of the jewes had , then can we not deny them the same priviledge which their infants had , and consequently they must partake of the one sacrament as well as the other . this argument is good , ad homines , against the partie opposite , proceeding upon the paedobaptists hypotheses or suppositions ; to wit , . that those to whom the covenant belongs , to them the seale belongs ; . that to the infants of believers , the covenant belongs ; . that the lords supper is a seale of the covenant as well as baptisme . and these are your hypotheses . now then if this be a good argument , children are to be baptized , because they are in the covenant , and the seale belongs to those in covenant , by the same reason they are to receive the lords supper , because they are in covenant , and the seale belongs to those in covenant . now this argument is strengthened from other hypotheses , as that the lords supper succeeds the passeover , as baptisme circumcision , but children not of yeares of discretion had the passeover , therefore they are to hav● the lords supper . and this is confirmed by the practise and opinion of the ancients that gave the lords supper to infants , for yeares after christ as well as baptisme . to this you say ; i answer , that infants are capable of the grace of baptisme we are sure , not sure that they are capable of the grace signed and sealed in the sacrament of the lords supper . this answer supposeth that there is grace sealed in the lords supper , which is not sealed in baptisme . to me that sacrament that confirmes the covenant of grace , confirmes all the promises in it , and therefore if baptisme be the seale of the covenant , it seales all the graces and all the promises in it , and therefore you are as sure that infants are capable of all graces annexed to the covenant , as of one . but you say ; for both of them are seales of the new covenant , yet it is with some difference ; baptisme properly seales the entrance into it , the lords supper properly the growth , nourishment , and augmentation of it ; baptisme for our birth , the lords supper for our food . now infants may be borne againe while they are infants , have their originall sin pardoned , be united to christ , have his image stampt upon them ; but concerning the exercise of these graces and the augmentation of them in infants while they are infants , the scripture is altogether silent . you spake somewhat to like purpose before , which i examined part . . sect . . to me it is yet as a paradoxe , that baptisme seales properly the entrance into the covenant , and the lords supper , the growth , nourishment , and augmentation of it . if you make the entrance at remission of sins , justification , or mortification ; the lords supper that seales christs death , seales the entrance into the covenant , mat. . . and for baptisme , it seales dying with christ , and rising with christ , rom. . , , . gal. . . col. . . pet. . . and therefore not onely the first worke of conversion , but also after-growth and exercise of holinesse . and the lords supper , signifies the same receiving the spirit , which baptisme doth , cor. . . and according ●o the doctrine of protestants , baptisme seales as well the pardon of other sins , as of originall sin . and so peter , acts . . and ananias , act. . . and therefore this difference you put , is a difference which the scripture makes not ; that i say nothing of your strange phraseology of the growth , nourishment , and augmentation of the covenant . but you say ; and what is said concerning the infants of the jewes eating the passeover , to which our sacrament of the lords supper doth succeed , there is no such thing mentioned in the book of god. it is said indeed that the severall families were to eate their lambe , if the houshold were not too little for it , and that when their children should aske them what that service meant , they should instruct them about the meaning of it , but no word injoyning , nor any example witnessing tha● their little children did eate of it . the commands were , that all the males should thrice a yeare appeare before the lord ; one of which was the passeover , exod. . . exod. . . deut. . . and at that time there was no other food to be eaten , but the unleavened bread , and the paschall supper . therefore those males that could eate , though not come to yeares of discretion fit to receive the lords supper , yet were to eate the passeover . ainsworth notes on exod. . . so both the outward rite , and the meaning of it was to be taught to their children . touching whom , the jewes hold from the law in exod. . . . deut. . . . that every child that could hold his father by the hand , and goe up from jerusalem ( gates ) to the mountaine of the temple , his father was bound to cause him to goe up and appeare before god with him , to the end he might catechize him in the commandements . and who sow as bound to appeare , was bound to keep the feast . maim●ny in hagigah , chap. . sect . , . also they say . a childe that is able to eate a marsell of bread , they catechize him in the commandements , and give him to eate so much as an olive of the unleavened bread . maimony treatise of leaven and unleavened bread , c. . sect . . but you say ; if they say as some of them doe , that those little ones who were able to enquire concerning the meaning of that service , and capable to receive instruction about it , did eate of the passeover with their parents ; i answer , ( although the scripture speaks nothing of their eating , yet if that be granted ) it is no prejudice to us , because the gospel prohibites not such young ones from the lords supper , who are able to examine themselves and discerne the lords body . true ; but children that were to appeare at the passeover , and to partake of it , were many of them such as might be instructed concerning the meaning of that service , and yet too young to examine themselves , or to discerne the lords body : so that if the lords supper succeed the passeover , and a rule may be drawne from the passeover to the lords supper , children unable to examine themselves , may be admitted to the lords supper . the rest of your sermon is application , which being not argumentative , i shall let it passe . onely whereas you charge anabaptists with a rash and bloudy sentence , condemning infants as out of the state of grace , condemning all the infants of the whole church of christ , as having nothing to doe with the covenant of grace ; and then tragically aggravate this thing , as parallel , or rather exceeding the cruelty of herod and hazael , in slaying and dashing the infants of israel against the wall , till you produce some testimonies of those you call anabaptists , so determining , i shall take it to be but a false accusation , and a fruit of passion , not of holy zeale . for the thing it selfe i have shewed part . . sect . . that it doth not follow on the doctrine of antipaedobaptisme : and i conceive that if to be in the covenant of grace be rightly explained , to wit , so as to signifie the having of the promise of justification and salvation by christ jesus , ( besides which i know not any other evangelicall covenant of grace ) your selfe will be found to exclude them from the covenant of grace as much as they . as they dare not say that this or that particular infant of a believer is in the covenant of grace , that is , certainly elected , justified , and to be saved , so neither dare you . your owne words are pag. . charitie being not tyed to conclude certainly of any of them : because they ought to know that all are not israel who are of israel , and that many are called , but few are chosen . if you should , you would gainsay the apostle , rom. . , , . and on the other side , as you will not say they are damned , so neither will they i am perswaded : but suspending any sentence concerning this or that in particular , leave them to god , who is the soveraigne lord both of them and us . thus have i , at last , in the middest of many wants , distractions , discouragements , and temptations , with the assistence of god , who hath never failed me ( to him be the praise ) examined your sermon , and thereby shewed that it doth not satisfie , and how little reason you had to say in your epistle , i am assured that it is gods truth which i have preached , and which he will blesse . notwithstanding which confidence , i presume you will see cause to consider more exactly of this matter upon the reading of this answer . i dare not thinke any otherwise of you then as of one who loves and seekes the truth . nor doe i know any reason why you should conceive that i have taken this paines for any ends crosse to the finding of truth . my reall intention in this worke is to discover truth , and to doe what is meete for mee in my calling , towards the reformation of these churches according to gods word : unto which wee have both bound our selves by solemne covenant . i have endeavoured not to let passe any thing of weight , either in your sermon , or master thomas goodwins , which i could well remember , or master blakes , or any other that have published any thing about this matter of late . it is an endlesse businesse to make a severall answer to every one . i chose to answer yours , because you are stiled the antesignanus , ensigne-bearer in print ; and for other reasons given in the prologue . my motion is that there may be an agreement among those that have appeared in publique in this cause , to joyne either in a reply to this examen of your sermon , or in some other worke , in which i may see together the whole strength embattailed , and not be put to weary out my selfe in reading every pamphlet , of which there are too many indigested ones now adayes printed , even with license : and for the buying of which , as now my estate is , i doubt whether my purse will furnish me . if i may have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , daily bread for mee and mine in a narrow compasse , it will be as much as i may looke for . the small stipend i had is likely to be even now subtracted . if there be any willingnesse in you to have any conference with mee , to consult about a way of brotherly and peaceable ventilating this point , i shall be ready upon notice to give you the meeting , and i hope it shall appeare , that i shall not be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , stiffe in opinion , in case truth shining before me , present my errour to my view ; and i hope the like of you . i shall waite a moneth after your receiving this writing , to know whether any of these motions take place with you , hoping you will not disdaine to let me have advertisement of your minde , by some letter or message . i would faine have truth and peace and love , goe hand in hand , if it may be : though of these three 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it is meet to preferre truth , as aristotle said long since . it will be no griefe of heart to you at the day of resignation of your spirit , that you have done nothing against the truth , but for the truth . you have now my writing , as i have yours : one day jesus christ shall judge us both . consider what i say , and the lord give you understanding in all things . thus prayeth from the house belonging to the rectory of gabriel fanchurch in london . december . . delivered to him dec. . . your brother and fellow-servant in the worke of christ , john tombes . inscribed thus ; to the reverend and worthy mr stephen marshall , b. d. these present . as it is now printed , it is enlarged in sundry places , occasioned by sundry books published since the first writing of it . colossians . , . proves not infant-baptisme . an appendix to these treatises , in an answer to a paper , framing an argument for infant-baptisme , from coloss. . , . sir , your paper exhibites an argument for infant-baptisme in this form : that may be said to be written , without which , that which is written cannot be true . this i grant . but that which is said , colos. . , . of the compleatnesse , with respect to ordinances in the new testament , could not be true , unlesse baptisme were to believers children , as circumcision was of old ; because it cannot be understood of the compleatnesse that believers have in christ for salvation ; for that the jews had in christ in the old testament ; but yet they had a token of the covenant to their children ; ergo , so they must now , or else that cannot be true . answ. this argument supposeth sundry things , whereof somewhat is true , somewhat false . . it is true , that the believing jews were compleat in christ for salvation . for so was david , abraham , &c. who were justified by faith , rom. . gal. . heb. . . it supposeth , that the apostle , colos. . , . mentions baptisme , to shew that we are as compleat as the jews in respect of outward ordinances , whereas the apostle speaks not , vers . . of compleatnesse by reason of outward ordinances , but sayes , we are compleat in christ without outward ordinances , and that is his very argument to disswade them from embracing the jewish ordinances , vers . . yea , it is plain , that the apostle makes the jews incompleat by reason of their outward ordinances ; and that it is our compleatnesse that we have all in christ , without outward ordinances , vers . . nor doth the apostle mention baptisme , to shew that we are equall to the jews in outward ordinances , ( for the apostles assertion is , that we are compleat in christ , exhibited without outward ordinances , and so the better for want of them ) but to shew how we put on christ , and so are compleat in him , and therefore he mentions faith as well as baptisme ; as in like manner he doth . gal. . , . rom. . , &c. besides , if that by being baptized we are compleat in outward ordinances , then we need no other ordinance , and consequently the lords supper should be needlesse . . it is supposed , that circumcision was a token of the covenant to their children . but this is ambiguous , in some sense it is true , in some sense it is not true . it was a token of the covenant made to abraham , to wit , first , that god made such a covenant with abraham . secondly , that god required them to keep the conditions of it . but it is not true in these senses . first , that every person circumcised , or to be circumcised , of right had a title to the promises of the covenant . secondly , that this title to the promises of the covenant was the reason why they were circumcised . . it is supposed , that if our children have not a token of the covenant now , as the jews had , that it cannot be true that we are compleat as the jews . but there is not a shadow of proof for it in the text. and it is grounded on these false assertions : first , that the jews children were in the covenant of grace , because they were abrahams naturall seed . secondly , that a believers children now are in the covenant of grace , because they are a believers children ; which things are expresly contrary to rom. . , , . . it is supposed , that the jews having salvation by christ , had also a compleatnesse by outward ordinances . it is true , that compared with the gentiles that served dumb idols , they were compleat by reason of outward ordinanc●s : for , their outward ordinances did shadow christ to come , and so did not the rites of the gentiles . but compared with christians since christ manifested in the flesh , so they were incompleat in respect of outward ordinances ; and so the apostle determines , gal. . , , . . it is supposed , that without a succession of some ordinance in stead of circumcision , we are not compleat in christ , or , at least , not so compleat as the jews . but this i account to be false , and very dangerous . . false , because it is contrary to that which the apostle asserts , that we are compleat in christ alone , because in him is the fulnesse of all that was shadowed in the ordinances of the jews . . it is very dangerous , because the same reason that will conclude , that we are not compleat without a succession of some ordinance in stead of circumcision , will conclude , we are not compleat without a succession of something in stead of sacrifices , temple , priest , altar , &c. and so after the popish manner , all jewish rites may be reduced under new names , which would overthrow christianitie . as for our compleatnesse in christ without outward ordinances , like to the jewes , i distinguish of a twofold compleatnesse . first , in all the will of god , colos. . . and thus we are compleat without such ordinances : we may do all the will of god believing in christ , without observing any of those ordinances . secondly , of means , in ordine ad finem , in order to the end , that is , to the knowledge of god , and obtaining salvation : and so we are more compleat then the jews without those outward ordinances or any answerable to them . first , because they had christ only promised and assured , we have ●hrist exhibited , and fulfilling all things . and surely they that have a promise accomplished , are compleater then they that have it only assured , let it be assured never so firmly . secondly , because they had christ under shadows , we the body , colos. . . he is the true shecinah , or divine majesty , in whom the fulnesse of the glory of god dwelt , col. . . he was circumcision , sacrifices , all . and the woman is more compleat that enjoyes her husband in person , then in a picture , messenger , &c. that represent him . the jews were compleat in christ as we , quoad rem , in respect of the thing , but not quoad modum , & mensuram rei , in respect of the manner and measure thereof . so that in the argument , these propositions are to be denied : . that colos. . , . speaks of compleatnesse , with respect to ordinances in the new testament . . that it could not be true , unlesse baptisme were to believers children , as circumcision was of old . . that colos. . , . cannot be understood of the compleatnesse that believers have in christ for salvation . . in some sense it is to be denied that the jews had a token of the covenant to their children . . in what sense it is to be granted that the jews had a token of the covenant to their children , in that sense the consequence is to be denied , that we must have a token of the covenant of grace for our children now . finis . latin passages en●lished in the second treatise . part . pag. . achilles the champion of the greeks proverbially put for the strongest argument . pag. . christ came to save by himself all ; all , i say , who by him are born again unto god , infants , and little ones , and boyes . pag. . that baptisme is unde●stood under the name of new-birth in our lords and the apostles phrase . openly confirming the apostolique tradition of the baptisme of little infants against anabaptisticall impiety . onely i would have the younger who shall light on the works of irenaeus●dmonished ●dmonished , that they beware of those editions , which that most impudent monke feuardentius a man of large boldnesse , and of no faith , hath foully corrupted in many things , and bespattered with impious and lying annotations . are born again . therefore being a master he had also the age of a master , not rejecting nor going beyond a man , nor loosing the law of humane kind in himself , but sanctifying every age by that likenesse which was to him . for he came to save all men by himself ; all men , i say , who by him are new born unto g●d , infants and little ones , and boyes , and young men , and elder men . therefore he went through every age , and was made an infant sanctifying infants ; among little ones , a little one , sanctifying them that have this age : being also made an example to them of piety , and justice , and subjection . among young men being made an example to young men , and sanctifying them to the lord : so also an elder to the elder , that he might be a perfect m●ster not onely according to the exposition of the truth , but also according to age sanctifying also the elder , being made also an example to them . and then he went even unto death , that he might be the first-b●rn from the dead holding the primacy in all things , the prince of life , before all , and preceding all . pag. . but we shall the lesse trouble our selves concerning origen , because the things we cited are not extant in greek . in the margin . if therefore any man before pelagius was born , or before arius arose , be sha●p and vehement against the errours of pelagians , and vexing them professedly , although the name of the heretiques be suppressed , it is not probable that such a writing is the authors whose name it 〈…〉 pag. . for this also the church hath received a tradition from the ap●stles , and according to the observance of the church . the seal to them that enter into a course of life . in the margin . notwithstanding the custome of our mother the church in baptizing little ones is not to be despised , nor by any means to be accounted superfluous , nor at all to be beleeved , unlesse it had been an apostolicall tradition . pag. . that infants are presently to be baptized that they perish not , because mercy is not to be denyed them . pag. . lest little ones should perish if they should die without the remedie of the grace of regeneration , they determined that they were to be baptized for the remission of sins . which also st. augustine shews in his book of the baptisme of little ones , and the african councels witnesse , and many documents of other fathers . but the father or mother ought not to stand for their own childe at the font , that there may be a difference between spirituall begetting and carnall . but if it happen by chance they shall have after that no fell●wship of carnall copulation , who have undertaken the spirituall bond of co-fatherhood in a common son . what say you to these things ? lo i have not brought out of augustine , but out of the gospel , which sith ye say ye chiefly beleeve , either yeeld ye at length that by the faith of others others may be saved ; or deny if ye can those things which i have laid down to be of the gospel . pag. . in the margin . and i was signed with the signe of his crosse , and i was seasoned with his salt from the wombe of my mother , who much hoped in thee . pag. . in the margin . augustine adjudgeth to eternall flames the infants that die without baptisme . likewise whosoever shall say , that even the little ones shall be made alive in christ , who go out of this life without the participation of his sacrament , he truly goeth both against the apostles preaching , and condemns the whole churcb . the most strong and founded faith , in which the church of christ beleeves that no not little ones most lately born can be freed from damnation , unlesse by the grace of the name of christ , which he hath commended in his sacraments . pag. . neither let that move thee , that some do not bring little ones to receive baptisme with that faith that they may be regenerated by spirituall grace unto life eternall : but because they think that by this remedy they keep or receive temporall health . for not therefore are they not regenerate , because they are not offered by them with this intention . for necessarie ministeries are celebrated by them . it is answered he doth beleeve by reason of the sacrament of faith . pag. . in the margin . lastly , who seeth not that this was the manner of that time , when scarce the thousandth person was baptized afore he was of grown age , and diligently exercised among the catechized . part. . pag. . these to the rest of the errours which they borrowed from the manichees and priscillianists added this over and above , that they said , that the baptisme of little ones was unprofitable , inasmuch as it could profit none , who could not both himself beleeve , and by himself ask the sacrament of baptisme , of which kind we read not that the manichees and priscillianists taught any thing . they mock us because we baptize infants , because we pray for the dead , because we ask the suffrages of the saints . they beleeve not that purgatory fire remains after death , but that the soul loosed from the body doth presently passe either to rest , or to damnation . but now they who acknowledge not the church , it is no marvell if they detract from the orders of the church , if they receive not their appointments , if they despise sacraments , if they obey not commands . because he took away festivals , sacraments , temples , priests , because the life of christ is shut up from the little ones of christians , while the grace of baptisme is denied , nor are they suffered to draw neer to salvation . pag. . we perceive in the man dexterity , and a study of mediocrity . but in that man ( i desire to be deceived ) i have seemed to my self to have found nothing but immoderate thirst of wealth and glory . a fanatique man , and grosse anabaptist . pag. . they would seem studious of truth . pag. . the word of the lord. from the staffe to the corner . a proverbiall speech in schools , when one thing is inferred from another , which have no connexion . they who all along these places of belgick and lower germany are found bordering on this anabaptisticall heresie , are almost all followers of this mennon whom i have named , to whom now this theodorick hath succeeded . in whom for a great part you may perceive tokens of a certain godly mind , who being incited by a certain unskilfull zeal , out of errour rather then malice of mind have departed from the true sense of divine scriptures , and the agreeing consent of the whole church ; which may be perceived by this , that they alwayes resisted the rage of munster , and batenburgick that followed after , stirred up by john batenburg after the taking of munster , who plotted a certain new restitution of the kingdom of christ , which should be placed in the destruction of the wicked by outward force . and they tau●ht th●t the instauration and propagation of the kingdom of christ consists in the crosse alone : whereby it happens that they which are such m●y seem rather worthy of pity and amendment , then persecution and perdition . pag. . what part of time . pag. . h●w it may be that israel may be rejected , but that together the covenant of god established with abraham and his seed should seem to be made void . in the margin . the credit of that promise , gen. . , . doth presently appear to be brought into danger by the rejecting of the jews , and the exclusion of them out of the covenant of god , sith they are born of abraham according to the fl●sh , so ( saith he ) it appeares to them that look upon the first f●ce of things . the apostle shews , th●t the●ef●re the word of the covenant , and divine promises made to israel failed not , or was made void , a●though a great part of the jews were unbelieving , because those promises of the c●venant are of god , not to them properly who were to come from the seed of abraham according to the flesh , but to those , who were to be ingraffed into the family of abraham by vertue of divine promise . pag. . the argument of the apostle to prove the covenant of god entred into with abraham doth not comprehend all the posterity of abraham in its skirt , we think should be thus simply framed . esau and jacob were of the p●sterity of abraham , but god did not comprehend both of these in his covenant with abraham . therefore not all the posterity of abraham . it is proved that god did not comprehend both in the covenant of grace , because he did not comprehend esau the elder , but jacob the younger . pag. . there are many of the seed of abraham to whom the word of promise doth not belong , as ismael , and ismaelites . but if so there be many of the seed of abraham to whom the word of promise doth not belong , then the rej●ction of many jews who are of the seed of abraham doth not make void the word of promise . in the margin . calvin gathers hence , in that any is the seed of abraham the promise made to abraham belongs to him : but the answer is manifest , that promise understood of spirituall blessing , pertaines not to the carnall seed of abraham , but to the spirituall , as the apostle himselfe hath interpreted it , rom. . & . for if you understand the carnall seed , now that promise will belong to none of the gentiles , but to those alone who are begotten of abraham and isaac according to the flesh . he teacheth also that the promises of god are not tied to the carnall birth ; but to belong onely to the believing and spirituall posterity . for they are not the sons of abraham , who are of abraham according to the flesh , but who are according to the spirit . pag. . in the margin . the inculcation also of the seed sheweth that onely the elect and effectually called are noted , the apostle so interpreting this place , rom. . . gal. . . & . . pag. . that baptisme doth not certainly seale in all the children of believers the grace of god ( sith among them some are absolutely reprobated , even by an antecedent decree of god from eternity ) and therefore believers are to doubt of the truth of gods covenant , i am thy god , and the god of thy seed after thee . pag. . to be a son of abraham doth declare nothing else but to be freely elected , rom. . . and to tread in the steps of the faith of abraham , rom. . . and to doe the workes of abraham , joh. . . from which is rightly gathered certain expectation of salvation to come , rom. . . pag. . in the margin . infants in their parents , grandfathers , great grandfathers , grandfathers grandfathers have refused the grace of the gospel , by which act they have deserved , that they should be forsaken of god. for i would to me , &c. for it is the perpetuall reason of the covenant of god , that sons ar● comprehended and reckoned in parents . to which d r twisse thus opposeth in his answer . nor any where in sacred scripture is it signified , that god hath made such a covenant with man fallen , that if he would believe , he should obtaine grace to him and his posteritie ; on the contrary , if he should not believe , he should lose grace for him and his posteritie , which kinde of covenant all divines acknowledge to have been entered into with adam under the condition of obedience . pag. . in the margin . it is manifest that the believers marrying with gentiles are guilty of uncleannesse , and to be kept from all communication of the fraternitie from the letters of the apostle , saying , that with such meat is not to be eaten . pag. . first , because the reason is uncertaine , for though it sometimes be so done , yet for the most part it is otherwise . he spake in the preterperfect tense , hath been sanctified , not , shall be sanctified , signifying a thing already determined and finished , and not a thing for the time to come uncertain either to be wished or expected . the believing wife may with a good conscience keep company with the unbelieving husband ( for why should anothers conscience defile her ? ) therfore it is said , the unbelieving not in himself , but in his wife ( that is , in respect of his wife ) is holy . the same we are to judge of the other member . pag. . this is the minde of the apostle that he may teach , that the believer is not to depart from the unbelieving yokefellow , consenting to dwell together . for proving of which an argument from an uncertain event , and by accident is equally unfit as a little before . hence that opinion is refuted that then when the unbeliever shall be converted , holy children will be begotten . for what if that never be ? pag. . of that ceremoniall holinesse what shall i say ? it came into augustines minde , but good god! how strange ? verily some things are so absurd , that they deserve not to be refuted . well . the apostle hath said , that if the unbelieving husband be not sanctified in the believing wife , it will be that the children borne from thence are uncleane . therefore all so borne are uncleane , or else the apostle spake false . what then ? are all borne of those parents whereof one is not sanctified in the other begotten in the monethly courses ? doe unbelieving husbands never use their wives but in their monethly courses ? so it must be verily , or this interpretation is ridiculous . of that covenant-holinesse what shall i say ? it came into chamiers , calvins , &c. minds , but good god! how strange ? verily some things are so absurd , that they deserve not to be refuted . well! the apostle hath said , that if the unbelieving husband be not sanctified in the believing wife , it will be that the children borne from thence will be uncleane . therefore all that are so borne are uncleane , or the apostle hath said that which is false . what then ? are all borne of those parents whereof one is not sanctified in the other , without the covenant of grace ? doe fornicating or unbelieving parents never beget children that shall be within the cov●nant of grace , or federally holy ? so it must be verily , or this interpretation is ridiculous . pag. . in the margin . but there is no straiter friendship then of husband and wife , which requires communion of affections , body , off-spring , lastly of the whole life : which all nations have with great consent believed to be a thing truly holy , that is not found out by man , but by god. pag. ( ) by this argument that sanctity is excluded which so ne have brought from education . for by that the argument of the apostle is altogether weakened . for this is uncertaine . for all know and experience teacheth , that neither all husbands are wonne , which also the apostl● implies , nor that all children obey holy education . besides , if any obey , yet this effect is accidentall , and not from the nature of marriage it s●lfe . pag. . but sith strangers washed and not circumcised were held with those lawes onely which god gave to all mankinde , it is easie to be understood that this washing was among old institutions , arising as i think after the great deluge , in memory of the world purged . whence that famous speech among the greekes , the sea washed away all the evils of men . certainly , we reade even in the epistle of peter , that baptisme is answerable to the flood . pag. . it was to be added , that not onely to himselfe and in himselfe , but also for our use christ be determined to be such , and so great , that nothing be wanting in him , and that in him alone we may get all things requisite to the true and saving knowledge of god. therefore having gotten fulnesse in christ , wherefore is there need either of humane wisdome , or the vaine inventions , or ceremonies of men , lastly any other thing added besides christ ? pag. . in the margin . it was knowne to the jews that god hath been wont to give this honour to prophets , that he would bestow his gifts on others at the prophets prayers , of which imposition of hands was a signe . it is manifest also from gen. . , . that in that rite prayers were wont to be conceived for children . thence it hath been alwayes observed by the hebrews , that they would bring children to those , who were believed to excell others in holinesse , to be commended in their prayers to god by laying on of hands : which custome as yet continues with them . now this custome christ approving , shewes that the faith and prayers of others profit also that age . pag. . as for that which erasmus subjoynes , that john first baptized , then preached baptisme , it is such that indeed it seems not to need refutation . for what ? when john did say , repent , for the kingdom of heaven is at hand , did he not teach those whom he was about to baptize ? yea verily , unlesse he had first taught to what end he did baptize , who at last would hav● come to his baptisme ? certainly , sith sacraments are seales , it is necessary that the doctrine goe before which they signe . pag. . in the margin . all these rites of profession of faith , &c. had their originall from the very institution of baptisme , nor ought they to be omitted , onely to be dispensed with respect to age . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e §. . the prologue of the occasion , and en● of this writing . §. . of the stating the question , partition of the treatise , sum of the answer to the testimonies of antiquity for infant-baptisme . §. . of the pretended testimony of justine martyr . §. . of irenaeu● his testimony . §. . of the supposed testimony of origen . si igitur aliquis ante ●atu● pelagium vel ante exortum a●ium in pelagi●●orum & aria●orum erro●es acer et vehemens , e●sque ex professo quamvis hereticorum nomine suppresso divexa●s pr●b●bile non est tale scriptu● esse ●jus authoris 〈◊〉 nomen pref●rt rivet . tract●t de patrum auth●rit . cap . consuetudo tamen man is ec●lesia in baptizandis parvulis nequaquam sper●enda est , neque ullo modo superflua deputanda , nec omnino credenda nisi apostolica esset traditio . augustin . lib. . cap. . de genesi . § . of the testimonies of gregory nazianzen and the greeke church . lib. . heresi . vel . . §. . of the testimony of cyprian , §. . of the testimony of augustine . august . t●m . confess . lib. . c. & sig●abar signo cru●is ejus & con●i●b●r ejus sa●e jam inde ab ute●o matris m●ae , quae multum speravit in te and then followes , how being young and falling sick , he desired , and his mother thought to have him baptized , but upon his recovery it was differred . rivet . tract . de patrum authoritate , c. . augustinus aeternis flammis adjudicat infantes fine baptismo morientes· §. . of the testimonies of hierom and ambrose . §. . o● the vali●ity of proof by these testimonies , and of the evidences that infant-baptism is an innovation . chamier panstr . cathol . to . . l. . c. . §. . denique hunc morem quis non videt ejus temporis ●sse , cum vix mil●esimus quisque bapt●zabatur non adultus , & in catechumenis diligenter exercitus . h. hamond , a practicall catech . l. . §. . pag. . and those other fundamentals of faith which all men were instructed in anciently , before they were permitted to be baptized . notes for div a -e §. . of the fitnes of placing the narration of miscarriages of opposers of paedobaptis●e . §. . of the opposers of infant-baptisme afore baltazar . § . of baltazar pacimontan●● . §. . of rebaptizing . § . of the anabaptists in germanie , and the antiprelatists in england . §. . of anabaptists opposing magistracy . §. . of the hindering of refo●mation by anabaptisme . §. . the antipaedobaptists principle overthrows not the lords day ; the paedobaptists principle reduceth judaisme , and popish ceremonies and addes to the gospell . vid. rainold . confer . with hart , c. . §. . §. . of the evill of separating from the ministry and communion of christians by reason of this opinion . §. . of the condition into which the opinion of anti-paedobaptisme puts the infants of believers , of originall sin , salvation out of the church , and covenant of grace . notes for div a -e §. . of the connexion between the covenant and the seale . §. . of the first conclusion concerning the identity of the covenant of grace f●r subst●nce to jews and g●ntiles . §. . of the meaning of the second conclusion . the answer of the assembly of divines to the reasons of the dissenting br●thren , p. praecog . . the whole chur●h of christ is but one , made up of the collection and aggregation of all who are called out of the world by the preaching of the word , to professe the faith of christ ▪ §. . that the covenant of grace is not made to believers and their seed . twisse vind . grat. cont . armin. lib. . pa. . digr . . hujus autem promissionis ( gen. . , . ) fides confestim apparet in discrimen ad●uci ex rejectione judaeorum & exclusione eorundem ex foed●re dei , cum fint ex abrahamo s●cundum carnem prosminati ; sic inquit apparet primas rerum facies intuentibus . walae cont . corvin . cap. . pag. . apostolus ostendit , ideo verbum foederis & divinarum promissionum israelitis factarum , non excidere aut irritum fieri , licet magna judaeorum pars esset incredula , quia promissiones illae foed●ris factae sunt a deo , non iis proprie qui ex semine abrahami secundum carnem erant orituri , sed iis qui secundum election●m gratuitam abrahami familiae ex vi di●ina promissionis erant inserendi . the new annotations on the bible , annot. on rom. . . the children of the flesh , &c ] not all they who are carnally born of abraham by the course of nature are the children of god to whom the promise of grace was made ; but the child●en of promise , that is ▪ those who were born by vertue of the promise , those who by gods speciall grace were adopted ( as isaac by a speciall and singular promise was begot by abraham ) they only are accounted for tha● seed mentioned in the covenant , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed . estius annot . ad gen. . . colligit hinc calvinus ●o ipso quo quis est semen abrahae ad cum pertinere pr●missionem abrahae factam : sed responsio manifesta pr●missionem illam de benedictione spirituali intellectam , non ad carnale semen abrahaemi pertinere , sed ad spirituale , quemadmodum eam ipse apostolus interpretat●● est , rom. & . si enim carnale semen intelligas jam ad neminem ex gentibus illa promissio pertinebit sed ad solos ex abraham & isaac secundum carnem genitos . paraeus comment . in mat. . docet quoque promissiones dei non alligatas esse carnali origini : sed pertinere tantum ad posteros fideles & spirituales . non enim sunt filii abrahae qui secundum carnem sunt ex abraham , sed qui secundum spiritum . ainsworth ann . on g●n . . . thy seed ] that is , to all the children of promise ( the elect ) who only are cou●ted abrahams seed , rom. . , . and in christ are heirs by promise , as well the gentiles as the jews . gal. . . . . ames . coron . art . . cap. . seminis etiam inculcatio solos electos & efficaciter vocatos notari docet apostolo sic hunc titulum interpr●tante , rom. . . gal. . . & . . §. . it is not in gods church , like other kingdomes . cotton , way of the churches of christ in n.e. c. . §. . infants cannot claim right unto baptisme , but in the right of one of their parents , or both . where neither of the parents can claim right to the ●ords supper , there th●ir infants cann●t claim right to baptisme . a● therefore we do not receive an he●●hen to the fellowship of the supper , nor their seed to baptism , so neither dare we receive an excommunicate person ( who is to us an heathen ) to the lords supper , or his children to baptisme , but after , ● §. . or where either of the parents have made such profession ; or it may be consi●ered al●o , whether the children may not be baptized . where either the grand-father or grand-mother have made su●h prof●ssion , and are still living to undertake for the christian education of the child . for it may be co●ceived where there is a stipulation of the covenant on gods part , an● a restipulation on ma●s part , there may be an obligation of the covenant on both parts . gen. . . or if these saile , what hindereth but that if the par●nts will de●●gne their infant to be educated in the house of any go●ly member of the church , the child may be lawfully baptized in the right of its household governour , according to the proportion of the law , gen . , . §. . of the texts , which are , act. . , . luk . . annot. on the bible , edit . . on acts . . the promise is unto you ] christ is promised both to iewes and gentiles : but the iewes had the first place . §. . of the text . rom. . . so also the new annot. on rom. . arminius l. . antiperk . p . sect. . infantes in parentibu● , avis , abavis atavis , tritavis evangelii gratiam repudiarunt , quo actu meruerunt ut a deo desererentur velim enim mihi , &c. perpetua enim est foederis dei ratio quod filii in parentib●● comprehendantur & censeantur . cui opponit tuissus ibidem . nec us piam in sacris literis significatur deum ejusmodi foedus cum homine lapso pepigisse ut si crederet , adipisceretur gratiam & sibi & posteris ; contra si non crederet & sibi & posteris suis gratiam amitteret ; cujusmodifoedus sub conditione obedientiae cum adamo initum fuisse omnes theologi agnoscunt . §. . of the text cor. . . tertul. lib. . ad uxorem . cap. . fideles gentilium matrimonia subcuntes stupri reos esse constat , & arcendos ab omni communicatione fraternitatis ex literis apostoli dicentis cum ejusmodi n●c cibum sumendum . grot. annot . in mat. . nulla autem arctior ami●itia quā mariti & uxoris quae communionem requirit affectuum , corporis , prolis vitae denique totius : quam rem esse vere sacram , id est , non humani●us , sed divinitus , repertam magno consensu g●ntes ●●ed : derunt . gr●t annot . in ma● . . . so ent pro eodem usurpari 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . §. . of the succession of baptisme into the place , room , and use of circumcision . §. . of the notion under which , & the reasons for which persons were circumcised , shewing that all persons that were circumcised were not in the covenant of grace . §. . of the priviledges of believers under the gospel , and whether the want of infant-baptisme be want of a priviledge of the covenant of grace which the jews had . §. . that the command to circumcise male infants is not virtually a command to baptize infants . §. . that mat. . is not a command to baptize infants , but contrary to it . master bal●y . a diswasion from the error of the times , ch . . p. . argues from this very text in like manner , to prove that only ministers have power to preach the word ordinarily . §. . of examples in scripture of infants baptisme , particularly of baptizing of housholds . §. . of an infants capacity of inward grace ; the text mat. . . and of the inconsequence of paedobaptisme thereon . grot. annot . ad . mat. . . notum erat judaeis solere deum prophetis hunc exhibere honorem , ut in alios dona sua conferret ad prophetarum preces , quarum symbolum erat manuum impositio . ad mat. . . pro pueris etiam eo ritu preces concipi solitas manifestum est ex gen. . , . exinde hebraeis semper observatum , ut ad eos qui sanctimonia praestare caeteris crederentur pucros deserrent , ipsorum precibus deo commendandos , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : qui mos bodie & apud ipsos manet . hunc autem morem christus probans ostendit isti etiam aetati pr●desse aliorum fidem ac preces . notes for div a -e §. . of the first objectiō from institution , mat. . . and the practise of john baptist , and the apostles . cotton in his way of the churches of christ in new-england . chap . sect . . and indeed the commission which christ gave his apostles , holdeth it forth that they were by preaching to make disciples before they baptized them and their children , mat. . . now a disciple is a scholler in christs schoole , and therefore when the apostles were directed to make disciples , before they did baptize them , they were not onely to cōvert them to the faith , but also to gather them as disciples or schollers into a schoole of christ. cotton : the way of the churches of christ in new-england . chap. . sect . . prop. . in the times of john the baptist , such as were received into baptisme they did first make confession of their sins , and therewith of their repentance , and of their faith also in him who was to come after him , mat. . . act. . , . and in the times of the apostles philip received ●he eunuch unto baptisme , not untill he had made professiō of his faith in christ jesus , act ▪ . . cham. panstr . cath. tom . . l. . c. . §. . hiritus omnes professionis fidei , &c. ab ipsae baptismi institutione habuerunt originem : nec debēt omitti , tantum proaetatis ratione dispensari . §. . of the second objection , and therein of the condition prerequisite to baptisme . videatur chamierus panstr . cath. tom . . li. . c. . grot. annot . on mat. . . §. . of the third so called objection , and therein of the knowledge requisite concerning the person to be baptized . §. . of the fourth objection , & therein of the stipulation of baptisme . cotton : the way of the churches of christ in new-england , ch . . sect. . the word of god receiveth none to the fellowship of the seals of the covenant , but such as professe their tak●ng hold of the covenant . §. . of the fifth objection , and therein of the benefit that comes by infant-baptism● dr. twisse : the doctrine of the synod of dort , & arles , &c part . § . p. . i willingly confesse , that the sacrament of baptisme is the seale of the righteousnesse of faith unto us christians , as circumcision was un●o the jews , rom. . which is as much a● to say , that it assures us of the remission of our sins , as many as believe ; and i conceive it to be a visible signe of invisible grace , and that not of justification only unto them that believe , but of the grace of regeneration also , but how ? not at that instant collatae , but suo tempore conferend● , to wit , when god shall effectually call a man ; and it is very strange unto me , that regeneration should go before vocation . s●e more to the same purpose in the same author , part . . §. . §. . of the sixth objection , and therein of infant-cōmunion , by vertue of their being in the covenant , & the lords supper succ●eding the passeover . cotton : the way of the churches of christ in new-england . chap. . sect . . to the passeover all jewes were admitted young and old , unlesse defiled with some pollution . §. . of the first use , and the anabaptists supposed bloudy sentence . §. . the epilogue containing some expressions and motions of the author . mr stalhams epistle before a conference at terling in essex . romanism discussed, or, an answer to the nine first articles of h.t. his manual of controversies. whereby is manifested, that h.t. hath not (as he pretends) clearly demonstrated the truth of the roman religion by him falsly called catholick, by texts of holy scripture, councils of all ages, fathers of the first five hundred years, common sense, and experience, nor fully answered the principal objections of protestants, whom he unjustly terms sectaries. by john tombes, b.d. and commended to the world by mr. richard baxter. tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) romanism discussed, or, an answer to the nine first articles of h.t. his manual of controversies. whereby is manifested, that h.t. hath not (as he pretends) clearly demonstrated the truth of the roman religion by him falsly called catholick, by texts of holy scripture, councils of all ages, fathers of the first five hundred years, common sense, and experience, nor fully answered the principal objections of protestants, whom he unjustly terms sectaries. by john tombes, b.d. and commended to the world by mr. richard baxter. tombes, john, ?- . [ ], , - , [ ] p. printed by henry hills, and are to be sold by jane underhill, and henry mourtlock in paul's church-yard, london : . a reply to: turberville, henry. a manuel of controversies. text continuous despite pagination. annotation on thomason copy: "nouemb ". reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng turberville, henry, d. . -- manuel of controversies. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion romanism discussed , or , an answer to the nine first articles of h. t. his manual of controversies . whereby is manifested , that h. t. hath not ( as he pretends ) clearly demonstrated the truth of the roman religion by him falsly called catholick , by texts of holy scripture , councils of all ages , fathers of the first five hundred years , common sense , and experience , nor fully answered the principal objections of protestants , whom he unjustly terms sectaries . by john tombes , b. d. and commended to the world by mr. richard baxter . jer . . thus saith the lord , stand ye in the ways , and see , and ask for the old paths , where is the good way , and walk therein , and ye shall finde rest for your souls . london , printed by h. hills , and are to sold by jane underhill , and henry mourtlock , in paul's church-yard . to the english romanists , who term themselves catholicks , specially to those of the counties of hereford and worcester . although the prejudice wherewith you are prepossessed against the truth avouched by me , the ingagements whereby you are linked to the roman see , the hopes that it 's not unlikely you feed you selves with , of seeing your native countrey reduced under the obedience of the roman papacy , besides the long experience , which hath been had , of the fruitlesness of attempts to alter your opinion in religion , how gross soever they have been proved to be , might have deterred me from this writing : yet sith i have been instantly urged to it , and am loath to imagine all of you tobe of so deplorable a wilfulness of spirit , as that you will obstinately persist in your manifest errours , and thereby cast away your s●uls . i have adventured to publish this ensuing treatise , that i might not be guilty of betraying the truth and your souls by my silence . i have been many years a preacher in england , chiefly in the counties of hereford and worcester , and though i have not had much acquaintance with any of you , yet some conferences have left me not without hope that you might see your errour about the supremacy , and infallibility of the pope and church of rome , which is the chief point on which your religion rests , as it is opposite to protestantism , although formerly and of late the french and some other churches have strongly opposed the popes or roman churches superiority above a general council , and their infallibility in their determinations . certainly , these two points which are the pillars of the religion of the roman party are so far from being catholick , that to him that shall impartially examine the proofs , it will appear , that they have been late innovations , and are yet contradicted by a great part of those churches which hold communion with the roman see. and for many other points of your religion , if you would either use your senses or your understanding in judging by the scripture , translated by your own party , what is true or false , you could not be so besotted as to believe transubstantiation , invocation of deceased saints , justification by your own works , and their meritoriousness of eternal life , purgatory●fire , prayer for the dead , another propitiatory sacrifice for quick and dead besides christ's , communion under one kinde onely , worshipping of images and reliques , with some other of your tenets . for freeing you from which errours , which are pernicious to your souls , if i could contribute any thing , i should count it a part of my happiness , of which i should have some hopes were it that i perceived you free from the imposition of your leaders on you , not to reade such writings as are against them ; which must of necessity enslave you to their opinions , and hinder you from an impartial search after truth : wherein what deceit is used by your imagined pastour the pope , may appear , as by many other things , so especially by the late carriage of pope innocent the tenth in the controversies between the jansenists and molinists in france , who being importuned to give sentence concerning the five propositions of jansenius ( if we may believe thomas white one of your chief disputants , and one whose approbation is to this manual of controversies of h. t. ) did in shew condemn jansenius his words , but did allow his meaning . and that i may not be thought to misreport him , i will set down his words in his appendicula to his sonus buccinae , about the censure of the five propositions of jansenius , sect. . where after he had shewed that the propositions of jansenius might be true in their sense , though the words were liable to exceptions , he adds , but whereto are all these things said ? is it that i might enervate or reprehend the popes decree ? nothing less : i profess , that was published by the best counsel and special guidance of the holy spirit which governs the church . the church was afflicted with dissentions : one part stood propped by the truth and authority of holy scripture ; the other being guarded with the multitude of princes , and of the common people circumvented with the sound of words flattering humane weakness , took great courage . what should the father of the church do ? he allayed the more unquiet part by granting them their words : the more obedient part he flatteringly comforted , by commending to them their senses . the former part of the saying was confirmed by a publick instrument . the later ( if there be any credit to be given to men of tender conscience ) was done before the oratour of the most christian king. it is manifest by what hath been said , with what rectitude of faith and divinity this part shines ; that that exhibites prudence worthy the pope , thus take it . wherein it may be perceived , that however white speak favourably of the pope , yet he sets out his dealing in that business as unworthy an infallible judge of controversies , which should have decided openly for jansenius , whose propositions stood propped by the truth and authority of holy scripture according to their meaning , which innocentius the tenth commended to them , that they might hold them still in that meaning in a conference ; and yet he condemned their propositions in their words by his bull published to quiet the wrangling and potent party of jesuits that had drawn the princes and common people to their side by words that flattered humane weakness in stead of truth glorifying god , than which in so weighty a matter what could be done more like a juggler or man-pleaser than a servant of god constant in asserting truth ? which shews , that the popes resolve not by the spirit of god , or the holy scripture , but by humane policy , as it may be for their advantage , to keep their party in obedience to them . and that it is not indeed any sincerity in seeking truth , or serious intention to feed the souls of people with true doctrine , but to accommodate all their determinations and negotiations , as to uphold their credit & authority , might be made abundantly appear by the history of the council of trent , and many other ways , which i shall not mention , being shewed by many , and particularly by mr. richard baxter in his key for catholicks ; onely this one instance out of thomas white i minde you of , because i think thomas white is yet alive , and in england among you , as i conceive by the edition of the dispute about schism between him and gunning . and i beseech you give me leave to tell you , that i do much pity your souls , which you do enslave to the most deceitfull of men the roman popes , and adhere to your priests , which either teach you not at all , but feed you with meer shews , in your masses and other rites , or if they preach , either preach not the gospel of jesus christ at all , or corrupt it with mixture of humane traditions , but keep you from hearing those who teach in your own language the doctrine of the holy scripture without guile , the refusing whereof under pretence of your fore-father's example , or the pope's , and your priests restraint , or our imagined heresie or schism , and in stead of it pleasing your selves with masses in latin , auricular confession , and priests absolution , and such like chaff , will never be justified before christ at his appearing , whose precept is that you search the scripture , and promise of blessing to them that hear the word of god and keep it , the neglect of which is the neglect of that great salvation which is brought to us by jesus christ . unto which , if you would attend , you would quickly finde the deceits of your popes and priests , and deliver your souls from the snares of ignorance of the gospel and popish errours , which now destroy your souls . if you yet shut your eys against the light of the gospel tender'd to you by protestant preachers , and persist in your errour and superstition you destruction will be of your selves , though thereby there is cause given of mourning for you to all that love the salvation of your souls , among whom i know my self to be one , and desire to be accounted as your unfeignedly desirous and studious servant in christ for your souls good . john tombes . an epistle sent by mr. richard baxter to the authour , to be prefixed . readers , were not the judgements of god so dreadfull , and infatuation so lamentable in matters of everlasting consequence , and sin so odious , and the calamities of the church , the dishonour of god , and the damnation of souls such deplorable things , as tolerate not a laughter in the standers by , it would seem one of the most ridiculous things in the world , that a man of seeming wisdom should be a papist , and that so many princes , and learned men , with the vulgar multitude , should be able so far to renounce or intoxicate their reason while they are awake : and a papist would be described , to be one that sets up his understanding to be the laughing-stock of the sober rational world. there are abundance of controversies among physicians that concern mens lives ; and yet i have heard of none so vain , as to step forth and challenge the authority of being the universal decider of them , or to charge god with folly or oversight , if he have not appointed some such universal judge in the world , to end all controversies in matters of such weight . but if in physick's , law , or any of the sciences , the controversies should be never so many or so great , if yet you could resolve them into sense it self , and bring all to the judgement of mens eys , and ears , and taste , and feeling , who would not laugh or hiss at him that would still make them the matter of serious doubts ? the papists finding that man is yet imperfect , and knoweth but in part , and that in the scripture there are some things are hard to be understood , and that earth hath not so much light as heaven , imagine that hereby they have a fair advantage to plead for an universal terrestrial judge , and to reproach god , if he have appointed none such , and next to plead that their pope or his approved councils must needs have this authority . and when they come to the decision , they are not ashamed to see after so many hundred years pretensions , that the world is but baffled with the empty name of a judge of controversies , and that difficulties are no less difficulties still , and controversies are no where so voluminous as with them . but this is a small matter with them . their judge seems much wiser when he is silent than when he speaks . when he comes to a decision , and formeth up thereby the hodge-podge of popery , they seem not to smile at , nor be ashamed of the picture which they have drawn ; which is , of an harlot shewing her nakedness , and committing her lewdness in the open assemblies , in the sight of the sun. they openly proclaim their shame against the light of all the acknowledged principles in the world , their own or others , and in opposition to all , or almost all that is commendable among men . the charge seems high , but ( in a few words ) take the proof . . they confess the scripture to be the word of god : and yet when we would appeal to that as the rule of faith and life , or as a divine revelation , in our disputes , they fly off , and tell us of its obscurity and the necessity of a judge . if they meet with a hoc est corpus meum , they seem for a while to be zealous for the scripture : but tell them that paul in cor. . , , . doth call it bread after the consecration , no less than three times in the three next verses , and then scripture is non-sense to them till the pope make sense of it . it is one of their principal labours against us , to argue against the scriptures sufficiency to this use . by no means can we prevail with them to stand to the decision of the scripture . . they excessively cry up the church , and appeal to its decision : and therefore we might hope , that here if any where , we might have some hold of them . but when it comes to the point , they not onely disown the judgement of the church , but impudently call christ's spouse a strumpet , and cut off ( in their uncharitable imagination ) two or three parts of the universal church as hereticks or schismaticks . the judgements of the churches in armenia , ethiopia , egypt , syria , the greeks , and many more besides the reformed churches in the west , is against their popes universal vicarship or sovereignty , and many of their errours that depend thereon . and yet their judgement is not regarded by this faction . and if a third or fourth part ( such as it is ) of the universal church , may cry up themselves as the church to be appealed to , and condemn the far greater part , why may not a tenth or a twentieth part do the like ? why may not the donatists , the novatians , or the greeks , ( much more ) do so as well as papists ? . they cry up tradition . and when we ask them , how we shall know it , and where it is to be found , they tell us , principally in the profession and practice of the present church . and yet when two or three parts of the universal church profess that tradition is against the papal monarchy , and other points depending on it ; they cast tradition behinde their backs . . they cry up the fathers : and when we bring their judgements against the substance of popery , they sometime vilifie or accuse them as erroneous , and sometime tell us , that fathers as well as scripture must be no otherwise understood , than their church expoundeth them . . they plead for and appeal to councils ; and ( though we easily prove that none of them were universal , yet such as they were ) they call them all reprobate , which were not approved by their pope , let the number of bishops there be never so great . and those that were approved , if they speak against them , they reject also , either with lying shifts denying the approbation , or saying , the acts are not de fide , or not conciliariter facta , or the sense must be given by their present church , or one such contemptible shift or other . . at least one would think they should stand to the judgement of the pope , which yet they will not : for shame forbids them to own the doctrine of those popes that were hereticks or infidels ( and by councils so judged ) : and others they are forced to disown , because they contradict their predecessours . and at rome the cardinals are the pope , while he that hath the name is oft made light of . and how infallible he is judged by the french and the venetians ; how sixtus the fifth was valued by the spaniards , and by bellarmine , is commonly known . . but all this is nothing to their renunciation of humanity , even of the common senses and reason of the world . when the matter is brought to the decision of their eys , and taste , and feeling , whether bread be bread , and wine be wine , and yet all italy , spain , austria , bavaria , &c. cannot resolve it ; yea , generally , ( unless some latent protestant ) do pass their judgement against their senses , and the senses of all sound men in the world ; and that not in a matter beyond the reach of sense ( as whether christ be there spiritually ) but in a matter belonging to sense , if any thing belong to it ; as whether bread be bread , &c. kings and nobles , prelates and priests , do all give their judgement , that all their senses are deceived . and is it possible for these men than to know any thing ? or any controversie between us and them to be decided ? if we say that the sun is light , or that the pope is a man , and scripture legible , or that there are the writings of councils and fathers extant in the world , they may as well concur in a denial of all this , or any thing else that sense should judge of . if they tell us that scripture requireth them to contradict all their senses in this point ; i answer , . not that scripture before mentioned , that calleth it [ bread ] after the consecration , thrice in the three next verses . . and how know they that there is such a scripture , if all their senses be so fallible . if the certainty of sense be not supposed , a little learning or wit might satisfie them , that faith can have no certainty . but is it not a most dreadfull judgement of god , that princes and nations , learned men , and some that in their way are consciencious , should be given over to so much inhumanity , and to make a religion of this brutishness , ( and worse ) and to persecute those with fire and sword , that are not so far forsaken by god , and by their reason ? and that they should so sollicitously labour the perversion of states and kingdoms for the promoting of stupidity or stark madness . . and ( if we go from their principles to their ends , or ways , we shall soon see that ) they are also against the unity of the church , while they pretend this as their chiefest argument , to draw men to their way . they set up a corrupted faction , and condemn the far greater part of the church ; and will have no unity with any but those of their own faction and subjection : and fix this as an essential part of their religion , creating thereby an impossibility of universal concord . . they also contradict the experience of many thousand saints ; asserting that they are all void of the love of god and saving grace , till they become subject to the pope of rome ; when as the souls of these believers have experience of the love of god within them , and feel that grace that proveth their justification . i wonder what kinde of thing it is that is called love or holiness in a papist , which protestants and other christians have not , and what is the difference . . they are most notorious enemies to charity , condemning most of the christian world to hell , for being out of their subjection . . they are notorious enemies to knowledge under pretence of obedience and unity , and avoiding heresie . they celebrate their worship in a language not understood by the vulgar worshippers . they hinder the people from reading the holy scriptures , ( which the ancient fathers exhorted men and women to , as an ordinary thing . ) the quality of their priests and people , testifie this . . they oppose the purity of divine worship , setting up a multitude of humane inventions in stead thereof , and idolatrously ( for no less can be said of it ) adoring a piece of consecrated bread as their god. . they are opposers of holiness , both by the foresaid enmity to knowledge , charity , and purity of worship , and by many unholy doctrines , and by deluding souls with an outside historical way of religion , never required by the lord , consisting in a multitude of ceremonies , and worshiping of angels , and the souls of saints , and images , and crosses , &c. let experience speak how much the life of holiness is promoted by them . . they are enemies to common honesty , teaching the doctrines of equivocations and mental reservations , and making many hainous sins venial , and many of the most odious sins to be duties , as killing kings that are excommunicated by the pope , taking oaths with the foresaid reservations , and breaking them , &c. for the jesuits doctrine , montaltus the jansenist , and many of the french clergy have pretty well opened it : and the pope himself hath lately been fain to publish a condemnation of their apology . and yet the power and interest of the jesuits and their followers among them , is not altogether unknown to the world. . they are enemies to civil peace and government , ( if there be any such in the world ) as their doctrine and practise of killing and deposing excommunicate princes , breaking oaths , &c. shews . bellarmine that will go a middle way , gives the pope power in ordine ad spiritualia , and indirectly to dispose of kingdoms , and tells us , that it is unlawfull to tolerate heretical kings that propagate their heresie , ( that is , the ancient faith. ) how well doctor heylin hath vindicated their council of laterane in this , ( whose decrees stand as a monument of the horrid treasonable doctrine of the papists ) i shall , if god will , hereafter manifest : in the mean time , let any man reade the words of the council , and judge . and now whether a religion that is at such open enmity with . scripture , . the church , . tradition , . fathers , . councils , . some popes , . the common senses and reason of all the world , even their own , . unity of christians , . knowledge , . experience of believers , . charity , . purity of worship , . holiness , . common honesty , . and to civil government and peace ( which might all easily be fully proved , though here but touched ) i say , whether such a religion should be embraced and advanced with such diligence and violence , and mens souls laid upon it , is the controversie before us . and whether it should be tolerated ( even the propagation of it , to the damnation of the peoples souls ) is now the question which the juggling papists have set a foot among those that have made themselves our rulers : and there are found men among us , that call themselves protestants and godly , that plead for the said toleration ; ( and consequently for the delivering up of these nations to popery , if not to spanish or other foreign powers ) which if they effect , and after their contrary professions , prove such traitors to christ , his gospel and their posterity , as they leave the land of their nativity in misery , they shall leave their stinking names for a reproach and curse to future generations ; and on such pillars shall be written , [ this pride , self-seeking , uncharitableness , and schism hath done . ] if thou marvel , reader , that the learned authour of this book and i , do joyn thus against the common adversary , after our own differences in the one point of infant-baptism , thou dost but marvel that we are christians , and have not made shipwrack of our faith and charity ; and on the account of our imperfections and little differences , cast away our salvation and the churches peace . be it known to you that we are some years elder than when our differences begun : and therefore if we have made no progress in holiness , we are unexcusable . and we know that he that is strongest in holy love , is strongest in grace . marvel not then if we get some little increase by the opportunities and mercies we possess ; and if we forget not , that we are members of the same christ , and heirs of the same kingdome , ( where we hope to live in perfect love ) when we draw nearer to it , and see that long we cannot be thence ; and when we see what havock the devil hath made in the churches of christ , and the souls of multitudes seemingly religious , by uncharitableness and schism . i am sure the soul that is most for unity and love is likest to those that are in heaven . this also is my answer to the papists , that i know will make it my reproach , that i hold so much communion with anabaptists ; that is , that i am not as uncharitable and schismatical as they , that confine the church to their deluded faction . we own nothing in each other that we discern to be evil ; but we unanimously practise so far as we are agreed . if sin have left england and europe any hopes , the lord have mercy upon a divided self-destroying generation , and suffer not the sins of men professing godliness , to drive away the gospel , and send it to america , ( according to mr. herbert's sad conjecture in his church militant . ) and , o that professours of godliness would consider , both , what they have done , and how much of holiness doth consist in charity , unity , and peace , and leave not to the papists the temptation or honour , of seeming more unanimous and peaceable than we , lest they seem to themselves and others more holy than we . experience and judgements will leave us the most unexcusable people under heaven , if we prevent not our own and the churches ruine , by a speedy , diligent return , to charity and peace . as these are the thoughts which i judged most necessary on this occasion to communicate , so are they the matter of my daily prayers . reader , the times require thee to be well versed in the controversies with the papists . if thou love thy faith and soul , be not lazy ; but as there are multitudes of excellent treatises at hand against popery , be not through negligence a stranger to them . and among others , in this treatise thou wilt finde the adversary solidly confuted , and the vanity of his reasonings detected , ( which briefly i did in his most material parts , in my key for catholicks . ) and among the many excellent treatises , against them , with which shops and libraries abound , i commend to the countrey reader , that would see much in a little room , and know the true grounds of confuting popery , two little treatises , viz. dr. challoner's credo sanctam ecclesiam catholicam , and dr. moulin's answer to cotton's questions , with the questions and challenges annexed . and for arguments against toleration of popery , dr. sutliffe's answer to the lay papists petition for toleration , and powel's answer to the same . whose side the scriptures are on , reade a little book called , the abatement of popish brags by alexander cook. reade also their own [ catholick moderatour , proving protestants no hereticks ] and the catholick judge or moderatour of the moderatour , by john of the cross , &c. shortly i hope you may have dr. moulin's excellent treatise of the novelty of popery , translated by his reverend son , and now going to the press . the lord grant , that mens refusing to receive the truth in the love of it to their salvation , and their base subjecting it to their pride and worldly interests , provoke not god to give them over to believe such lyes as are here detected , and to withdraw the gospel from an unworthy nation . amen . novemb. . . ri. baxter . errata . page . margin reade white or de albiis sonus . p. . l. . r. ephes . . . p. . l. . r. ezek. . p. . l. . r. being . p. l. . r. six . l. . r. he . p. . l. . . r. primacy . l. . r. last . l. , . r. inconsequent . l. . r. removed . p. . l. . r. better . l. . r. primacy . p. . l. . r. decreed . p. . l. . r. brings . p. . l. . r. milevis . p. . l. . r. ninth . p. . l. . r. marozia . l. . r. gandavensis andegavensis . p. . l. . r. ego . p. . l. . r. ivo . p. . l. . r. to the. l. . r. councils . p. . l. . r. the. p. . l. . r. armenians . p. . l. . r. rood . l. . r. second . p. . l. . r. dr. p. . l. . r. way of . p. . l. . r. thuanus . p. . l. . r. commemorative . p. . l. . r. our . p. . l. . r. conspicuity . p. . l. . r. hath said . p. . l. . r. ambiguity . p. . l. . r. palpable . p. . l. . r. by which . p. . l. . r. truth . p. . l. . r. bannez . p. . l. . r. doth not . p. . l. . r. of . p. . l. . r. conceits . p. . l. . r. ( according l. . r. vealeth ) l. . r. faction . p. . d. l. . p. . l. . r. thousand . p. . l. . r. general . p. ● . l. . r. deceived . p. . l. . r. of an . p . l. . . d. het . p. . l. . r. one . romanism discussed : or , an answer to the nine first articles of h. t. his manual of controversies . article i. the church of rome is not demonstrated to be the true church of god by its succession . sect . i. of the title page of h. t. his manual of controversies , in which is shewed to be a vain vaunt of what he hath not performed . among the many writings which have been dispersed for the seducing of the english people from the protestant doctrine and communion , to the imbracing of the roman tridentin opinions , a book of h. t. that is , henry turbervile ( at i am told ) hath been instrumental thereto . it is stiled ( as becanus , cost●rus , and others before had done theirs ) a manual of controversies , in which he pretends to have clearly demonstrated the truth of the catholique religion , by which he means the roman opinions , branched by him into articles ; the truth of which he hath no otherwise demonstrated , than by shewing that there is no truth in them : which will appear by considering that the two chief points of the roman religion , distinct from the protestant , are , the bishop of rome's supremacy , and transubstantiation of the bread and wine in the eucharist , into the very flesh and blood of christ which he had of the blessed virgin. now if he believe himself , that he hath clearly demonstrated the truth of these by texts of holy scripture , councils of all ages , fathers of the first years , common sense and experience : yet there is so little said by him that carries a shew of proof of either ; or rather there is so much in his own writing as gainsays it , that were there not a spirit of error which doth possess men , they would not believe him . for , that he hath not clearly demonstrated the truth of the bishop of rome's supremacy over the whole church , is apparent , in that he hath not demonstrated clearly peter's supremacy , there being no texts brought by him , art. . to prove it , but ephes . . . matth. . . john . , , . luke . . matth. . . mark . luke . acts . of which the very first proves , that other apostles were foundations as well as peter , and therefore the term peter , or rock , matth. . . proves not the whole church so built on peter , as that thereby he is declared supreme visible head over them , or over the whole church , any more than other apostles were . nor doth feeding the sheep of christ , prove any other supremacy than was in the elders of ephesus , commanded to do the same , acts . . and by peter himself , as a fellow-elder with them , required of them , pet. , ▪ and confirming the brethren , luke . . is no more an argument of peter's supremacy , than the same thing is of the supremacy of paul and barnabas , acts . . the other texts shew nothing but priority of nomination or speaking ; notwithstanding which , h. t. p. . confesseth the apostles to have been equal in their calling to the apostl●ship , nothing at all of supremacy and rule over the apostles and whole church is deducible from them . and for transubstantiation , or real substantial presence of christs body and blood in the eucharist , that which he alledgeth is the words of institution , marth . . , . mark . , . luke . , . cor. . , . which he would have it believed , are spoken without trope or figure of speech , saying , p. . to whosoever shall peruse the text , matth. . , . there is no mention of any f●gure in it ; and yet p. . confesseth there is a figure in the word [ chalice . ] and for the councils of all ages , saith , p. . that the second and third ages produced no councils ; and p. . he saith , in this tenth age or century i finde no general council , nor yet provincial , in which any controversie of moment was decided . and for fathers of the first years , neither do any of the fathers he cites ascribe to peter such a supremacy over the apostles and the whole church , as the romanists assert ; nor would any man imagine , that iren●●us , cyprian , or augustine , should intend such a supremacy to the bishop of rome , who knows the controversies about easter between polycarpus and anicetus , polycrares , irenaeus , and the asian bishops , and pope victor ; and about rebaptization , between cyprian and s●ephanus ; between the african bishops , about appeals to rome , and ca●lestinus and other bishops of rome . and for the point of transubstantiation , or real substantial presence of christs flesh and blood in the eucharist , the sayings of fathers being well viewed , speak not what he would have them ; and augustine's words cited by him , p. . denying judas to have eaten the bread which was our lord himself , must be understood as denying transubstantiation , sith he acknowledgeth , he did eat the ●read of our lord. as for common sense and experience , how it should demonstrate clearly the popes supremacy , is beyond my apprehension , yea against it , sith histories and travellers tell me , that the greek and other churches to this day deny the popes supremacy . and that christs real substantial bodily presence or transubstantiation , should be demonstrated by common sense and experience , is so impudent an assertion as no man can believe , but he that hath tenounced common sense aud experience . nor can h. t. believe himself in that , if he believe what he saith , p. . the body of christ in the sacrament is not the proper object of sense ; p. . the evidence of sense is not infallible in the sacrament ; which if there were no more said , might satisfie an unprejudiced person , that this author doth not easily deserve belief , but deals like a mountebank , that commends his salves beyond their vertue ; and when p. . he forbids us to try by the dead letter ( meaning the scripture ) or ●uman● reason , it is a shrewd sign that what he said in the title page of his demonstration , was but a copy of his countenance , no real thought of his own heart . nevertheless for the undeceiving of those who are willing to be undeceived , i shall examine his writing , and shew that he hath not at all demonstrated the roman doctrine to be true , nor answered the protestants objections ; and that the true fathers , prophets , and apostles , and teachers in the next ages to them , have not taught the now roman opinions , but the contrary . sect . ii. of the epistles before h. t. his manual , in which too much is ascribed to the church , and the churches authority deceitfully made the first point of his treatise . letting pass other things in the epistles , with the approbation and commendation of those of his own way , as being no better than a kind of complement of one papist with another , of no moment but with that prejudiced party , i shall onely take notice of that passage in his epistle to the reader , in which he saith , but not truly , it is agreed by all parties , that the church founded in christs blood , was the onely mistris of divine faith , and sole repository of all revealed truths , at least for an age or two . for this is not true of the church , but of christ his apostles , and their preaching and writings . and therefore it is not true , which he thence infers , that the controversies of the church are the most important doubtless of all others , or that on the notion and eviction of her authority , all other points essentially depend for their knowledge and decision ; which in effect is as if he had said , were there not a pope and his council , the scriptures would be ineffectual to know the revealed truths of god , and to decide any controversies in religion , which i count little better than blasphemy ; nor doth he well to begin with that point ; were it that he intended to have cleared truth , he should first ( as bellarmine and some others have done ) have examined the points of the scriptures sufficiency , and the needlesness of unwritten traditions , and thereupon have examined the particular points in difference , that thereby the reader might have discerned whether the roman church were the true church of god , sith the truth of the church is known by the truth of faith , which they hold , as h. t. himself urgeth , p. . succession in the profession of the same faith from christ , and his apostles continued unto this time , is it by which the church is known ; and therefore we must first know whether the roman faith be the same with that which christ and his apostles taught , before we can know the truth of their succession , and of their church . but h. t. after becanus and others , conceives it best for their design , to forestall readers with the authority of the roman church ; which being onc● setled in mens minds , no marvel if they swallow down such gross doctrines as transubstantiation , half communion , invocation and worship of saints deceased , angels , reliques , images , crucifixes , and the rest of their errors and abuses , wherein any that reads the scriptures may see how far they are gone from the primitive saith taught by christ and his apostles ; nevertheless having premonished the reader of this deceitfull artifice , i shall examine his book in the order he hath chosen . sect . iii. the tenet of the falsity of all churches not owning the pope , is shewed to be most absurd . article . saith h. t. our tenet is , that the church now in communion with the see of rome is the onely true church of god. answ . by the s●e of rome , he means the roman bishop , or pope , and the communion he means , is in the same tenets which they hold according to the trent canons , and pius the fourth his bull with subjection to the bishop of rome's jurisdiction over the whole church of christ . in which sense the tenet is so palpably false , and so extremely uncharitable , that it is a marvel that any that hath the understanding of a man should imbrace it , or the charity of a christian should brook it . for , . if the church now in communion with the see of rome , be the onely true church of god , then that church onely hath eternal life , for onely the true church of god hath eternal life . extra ecclesiam non est salus , is their own determination , concil . lateran . . can. . and elsewhere . but that church which is not in communion with the see of rome , hath eternal life ; ergo , it is the true church of god. the minor is proved thus , that church which believes in jesus christ hath eternal life : but other churches besides those now in communion with the see of rome , believe in jesus christ ; ergo. the major is plain from john . , , . & . . & . . john . , . mark . . in which it is expresly said , that he that believeth on christ ( without any mention of peter or the pope ) hath eternal life . the minor is proved by their profession , and other evidences of their reality in believing ; which if any deny to prove true faith in them , he may as well deny there are any believers in christ in the world . . if there be no true churches but such as are in communion with the see of rome , then there is some other name besides the name of jesus christ given among men , by which we must be saved , and there is salvation in some other besides him , for men have salvation in that name by which they are the true church of god ; and if we be the true church of god by communion with the pope , we have salvation by the pope . but this is most false and antichristian , to ascribe salvation to any other name besides the name of jesus christ , as being expresly contradictory to peter's own words , act. . . there is no salvation in any other , neither is there any name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved , but the name of jesus christ ; not peter , or the bishop of rome . . if no churches be true churches of god , but such as are in communion with the see of rome , then christ died for no other churches but them . for christ died for his church , ephes . . . it is not said , he gave himself for them who are not his church . but sure it is very uncharitable to say , that christ died for no other than those that own the pope , and contrary to the scripture , that god so loved the world , that he gave his onely begotten son , that whosoever believeth on him should not perish , but have everlasting life , joh. . . therefore it is false and uncharitable , to exclude all but romanists out of the church of god. . if none be the true church of god , but such as are in communion with the see of rome , then none are members of christ , in christ , the sons of god , but such as are in communion with the see of rome ; for the true church of god onely are members of christ , in christ , the children of god , ephes . . but it is false , that none are members of christ , in christ , or children of god , but such as are in communion with the see of rome ; for the apostle tels the galatians , gal. . , . that they were all the sons of god by ●aith in christ jesus , that as many as were baptized into christ , had put on christ , v. that they were all one in christ jesus , without any requiring of communion with the see of rome . . if none are the true church of god but such as are in communion with the see of rome , then christ is present with none by his spirit and protection ; but such as are in that communion . for such as are not the true church of god , christ is not present with them by his spirit and protection , rom. . . ye are not in the flesh , but in the spirit , if the spirit of god dwell in you . if any man have not the spirit of christ , the same is none of his , ver . as many as are led by the spirit of god , they are the sons of god , cor. . . know ye not that your body is the temple of the holy ghost , which ye have of god , and ye are not your own , cor. . . for ye are the temple of the living god , as god hath said , that i will dwell in them , and walk amidst them , and i will be their god , and they shall be my people . revel . . . christ walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks . but christ is present by his spirit and protection with other churches and persons , than such as are in communion with the see of rome , even all that believe in christ , and are the sons of god , as is apparent in that they call jesus the lord , which none can do , but by the holy ghost , cor. . . they cry abba father , and thereby shew they have the spirit of adoption , gal. . can any have the face to say , that the millions of christian greeks , and others in persecution , who servently invocated god in the name of christ , have not the spirit of christ , nor are his , because they are not in communion with the roman see ? yea , is there not more evidence of christs spirit among them , than is in the roman church , in which there is so much uncleanness ▪ and so little of holiness , that even h. t. to prove its holiness , is fain to have recourse to some supposed saints many hundreds of years since , by reason of the late scarcity . . if none are the true church of god , but such as are in communion with the see of rome , then none are the house of god but they , sith the house of god is the church of god , tim. . . but that is false ; for persons not in communion with the see of rome may be built on christ a spiritual house , pet. . . otherwise , besides the foundation which is laid , to wit , jesus christ , it were necessary there should be another foundation , on which they should be built , to wit , peter and his successors . but paul saith , cor. , . no man can lay any other foundation to build upon a spiritual house to god , but that which is laid , jesus christ ; and peter himself , pet. . . tels us , christ is the living stone , on which they are built ; and ver . . alledgeth the scripture , saying , behold , i lay in sion a chief corner stone , elect , precious , and he that believeth on him shall not be ashamed ; therefore all that believe in christ , though they be not in communion with the see of rome , are a spiritual house , and a true church of god ; which is confirmed by the words of the apostle , eph. . , , . where he saith of the ephesians , that they were of the houshold of god , and were built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets , jesus christ himself being the chief corner stone , in whom all the building fitly framed together , groweth unto an holy temple in the lord. in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of god through the spirit . and ephes . . . there is one body , and one spirit , even as ye are called in one hope of your calling . one lord , one faith , one baptism . one god and father of all , who is above all , and through all , and in you all . cor. . . for as the body is one , and hath many members , and all the members of that one body , being many , are one body : so also is christ . for by one spirit are we all baptized into one body , whether we be jews or greeks , whether we be bond or free : and have been all made to drink into one spirit . v. . now ye are the body of christ , and members in particular . from whence may be gathered , that communion with christ by his spirit , faith , and baptism , without any communion with the see of rome , is sufficient to prove persons to be the house of god , and the body of christ , and consequently the true church of god. for that which was sufficient to make the ephesians and corinthians the house of god , and body of christ , is sufficient now to make english or other people a church of god , there being no more required thereto now , than was then ; and the apostle saith , galat. . , . for ye are all one in christ jesus ; if ye be christs , then are ye abra●ams seed , and heirs according to the promise , col. . . where there is neither gre●k nor jew , circumcision nor uncircumcision , barbarian , scythian , bond nor free , but christ is all , and in all . but then there was no more required to the being of the true church , or house of god , or body , but communion with christ by his spirit , faith , and baptism , without communion with the see of rome , as the texts alledged shew ; therefore this communion with christ is sufficient to make us english a true church of god , without communion with the see of rome . . if the first apostolical churches were true churches afore either peter was at rome , or any church there gathered , then it is not necessary to the being of the true church of god now , that persons be in communion with the see of rome ; for there is no more required to the being of the true church of god now , than was then , and it could not then be required to be in communion with the see of rome , when there was no bishop nor church there . but there were apostolical true churches of god at jerusalem , samaria , and elsewhere , afore either peter was at rome , or any church there gathered ( as the history of the new testament shews ; ) therefore it is not necessary to the being of the true church of god , to be in communion with the see of rome . . if there be none true churches but such as are in communion with the see of rome , then the churches in india and elsewhere so remote from rome , that they never heard of the bishop or see of rome , nor were required communion with it , should be excluded from the church of christ , though they hold the true faith , because they do not that which being of meer positive institution , they are unavoidably ignorant of , and consequently should be damned . but this is too absurd , sith it imputes to god tyranny , in requiring that which cannot be done , and cruelty in damning for not doing it ; ergo. . if to be in communion with the see of rome , be necessary to the being of the true church , then were the apostles and fathers , who in their writings and creeds never required this of the believers to constitute them a true church of god , very unfaithfull or defective in their tradition , sith they did not require or teach this as necessary to the being of a true church of god ; as may be seen in their writings and creeds . but this is false , as being contrary to their protestations of their integrity , in not shunning to declare the whole counsel of god , acts . , . and elsewhere ; ergo. . if there were many saints and martyrs , acknowledged even by the romanists to be such , who did not hold communion with the bishop of rome , so as to own him to be supreme visible head of the whole church , but did oppose him , and lived and died in that opposition , and yet were in the church of god , then they who hold not communion with the see of rome may be the true church of god. but the antecedent is true in cyprian , augustine , and many more opposing the bishop of rome about rebaptization , appeals from africa , keeping easter , therefore either they must be unsainted , or else it must be yielded , that persons who are not now in communion with the see of rome , may be true churches of god. i need not insist any longer in proving the falsity of a tenet so palpably absurd , and demonstrated to be so by bishop mortan in his grand imposture of the roman church , and by others elsewhere , let 's view h. t. his proof . sect . iv. the succession of bishops , priests , and laicks , required by h. t. is not necessary to the being of a true church . that ( saith he ) is the onely true church of god , which has had a continued succession from christ and his apostles to this time . but the church now in communion with the see of rome ; and no other , has had a succession from christ and his apostles to this time ; therefore the church now in communion with the see of rome , and no other , is the true church of god. for proof of the major he alledgeth isa . . . & . , , . & . . ezech. . . dan. . , . matth. . . john . ephes . . , , ▪ . answ . the succession he means , is expressed p. . to be a continued number of bishops , priests , and laicks , succeeding one another in the profession of the same faith . this succession may be either in the same place , or some place or other indefinite , and it may be said to be continued without the least interruption for the smallest space of time , or so continued that in each age or century there hath been such a succession , though with some intermission . the succession in the profession of the same faith , may be either universal in every point , or limited to fundamentals . the succession may be said to be continued either so conspicuously , as that there is an assembly of that people in each age , which any christians in any part of the world did , or might know , as they do the commonwealth of the venetians , or kingdom of france , o● as heretofore the roman commonwealth was known ; or else obscurely , so as to be known onely to themselves , and some near neighbors . the proof of this succession may be conceived to be out of history , or other clear writings , records , or monuments extant , expressing persons and their faith , or else it may be conjectured from some more obscure intimations . this author i conceive from many passages following , understands his major here thus : that is the onely true church of god , which has had in the same place a continued succession from christ and his apostles to this time , without interruption any notable time in any age , of a number of bishops , priests , and laicks , succeeding one another in the profession of the same faith , not onely in fundamentals , but in other points also , so conspicuously , that all christians did or might know it as the roman empire , french kingdom , or venetian republique may be known , and this to be proved out of history , or other clear writings , records , or monuments , expressing the persons and their faith . for such a succession this author would have necessary to a true church , which he imagines may be proved to be in the roman church , and no other . but in this sense his proposition is most false , and no whit proved out of the texts he produceth , and nullifies the roman church it self , which he indeavours so much to magnifie , as to make it to be the onely true church of god. in opposition thereto i say , . there may be a true church of god , where there are no bishops or priests at all . which i prove , . from acts . . where it is said , that barnabas and paul after they had gathered the churches , they returned to them and ordained elders in every church , which supposeth they were churches sometime afore they had elders ordained for them ; therefore it follows , there may be a true church without bishops , priests , or elders , sith those churches were such afore they had them . . from the definition of a true church . that is a true church which hath the definition of a true church . h. t. confesseth often this proposition to be true . but a number of believers in christ who have no elders , or priests , or bishops , hath the definition of a true church ; ergo , the minor is proved from the received definitions . bellarm. tom. . controv. l. de eccles . milit . c. . ecclesia est evocatio sive caetus vocatorum , the church is the company of the called out ; and other authors speak conformably . but there may be a ca●ling out ▪ or a company of persons called out , though they have no bishops or priests , therefore they may be a ture church of god. . that company which hath the essential parts of a true church , is a true church of god ; but a number of believers professing the faith of christ , hath the essential parts of a true church . they are the matter of a church , in that they are men , the form is faith , or the profession of it , no other thing can be rightly assigned to be essential as constitutive of a true church ; their governours , order , special gifts , and other things tending to their well-being , are common accidents , which may be , or not be , and yet the church remain a true church . therefore a number of believers professing the true faith of christ , without bishops , is a true church of god. . it is not necessary to the being of a true church , that there be a succession of bishops distinct from presbyters , whom h. t. terms priests . for . there are many fathers and popish writers , who make them but one order at first , lumbard . sen●ent . l. . distinct . . apud vcteres iidem episcopi & presbyteri fuerunt . the antients took bishops and priests for the same ; therefore with them there were churches , in which were no bishops distinct from presbyters . . where there were two orders , yet they were not so necessary , but that the church may be without them ; otherwise in the vacancy of the episcopal see ( which hath in rome it self been sometimes some years together , often many moneths and days ) the church should cease to be a true church of god ; for then it would follow , that in such vacancies the roman church did cease to be . . it is not necessary to the being of a true church , that there be a profession of the same faith in every point ; for then the roman church should not be a true church in paul's days , in which it is clear from rom. . . that one believed he might eat all things , another who was weak did eat herbs . ver. . one man esteemeth one day above another , another esteemeth every day alike . in after ages the differences in the roman church it self , if reckoned , would make a large catalogue . . it is not necessary to the being of a true church , that the company and their profession be so visible , as that they may be discerned as the roman senate was , or the venetian republique , and french kingdom are . for then the disciples which were assembled , the doors being shut for fear of the jews , john . . had not been a true church of god , nor the woman in the wilderness , revel . . . nor those that wand red in dens and caves of the earth , in desarts and mountains , heb. . . then the saints in persecution should not be blessed , as christ saith , matth. . . but cursed , as ceasing to be the true church of god. . it is not necessary to the bring of a true church , that there should be in it a succession of bishops , priests , and laicks , professing the same faith ; for then the first company of such professors , though called out of the world , should not be ▪ a true church of god , for want of succession . . much less is it necessary , that there should be a succession in the same place . for then when christ removed the candlestick , that is , the church out of it's place , as he threatens , revel . . . though believers should come to dwell there a thousand years after , they should not be a true church , because of the interruption of succession in that place : the church at jerusalem after the persecution had not been a true church , if the apostles had been scattered as well as the rest , acts . , . doth a church persecuted and drive● out of a place cease to be a church , because they and their successors are removed out of their dwellings ? suppose the place wasted and destroyed , shall that destroy the being of the church which was there before ? . much less is it necessary that there should be a continuance without any notable interruption in each age . for there may be many hinderances of elections of bishops , and ordinations of priests , there may be scatterings of the laicks , as was at jerusalem , acts . . and yet the being and verity of the church continue . . if a church must be judged no true church , because no writings or monuments have kept the catalogue of bishops , priests , and laicks , professing the same faith , from christ till this time , a church shall be condemned as no true church , for want of writings and monuments , or because they are now lost by reason of the inundation of barbarism and barbarous people , who spoil learning and arts , which yet popish writers acknowledge to have happened in the ninth age , tearmed by genebrard , chron. l. . the unhappy age , for want of learned writers ; and h. t. himself , p. . saith , in this tenth age or century i find no general council , nor yet provincia● , in which any controversie of moment was decided . sect . v. none of the texts alledged by h. t. prove a necessity of such a succession , as he imagines , to the being of a true church . as for the texts he alledgeth , they are all so impertinently alledged , that it 's likely , had he not presumed he should meet with very credulous readers , he would not have mentioned them , or at least he would have shewed how he proves his proposition from them , it being necessary to do so , if he had a mind to instruct , and not impose on his readers . the first text , isa . . . is no promise of such a succession in any visible church , as h. t. speaks of , but of a continuance of gods word and spirit with the persons there meant , which seem to be peculiarly the jews , by the apostles alledging rom. . . however they are onely the elect who can be there meant , sith the promise is made good to none other , none other have the spirit of god not departing from them , not any whole visible church among the gentiles , from whom the spirit of god may depart . in the three next texts , isa . . , , . isa . . . ezek. . . the very words apply the promises to hieru●alem and the people of israel , so that if they speak of any continued succession in any visible church in all ages , it must be the jewish , which it is certain hath had no such succession , but is broken off from the true olive to this day ; and therefore cannot be meant of them in h. t. his sense , till they be reingrassed . the next , dan. . , . speaks not of the continued succession which h. t. imagines of every true visible church , but of the duration of christs dominion , which shall not pass away to another ; that is , there is no kingdom which shall succeed to it , as there did to the former monarchies , nor shall it be destroyed , as they were , but shall be continued to christ without any succession . so that this text mentions not h. t. his succession , but excludes succession of any other to christs dominion . matth. . . intimates a succession to the end of the world , of teachers , and so doth ephes . . , , , . but not in every true visible church , nor so conspicuous , as that all may know and discern the church , as men discern the assembly of the people of rome , nor so apparent , as that there may be produced a catalogue of bishops , priests , and laicks , professing the same faith , from christs time till now . much less doth john . . prove such a succession , it being onely a promise of the spirits abiding with the apostles for ever ; which is no promise to the bishop of rome , or any other visible church now . sect . vi. the succession pretended to be in the roman church , proves not the verity of the roman church , but the contrary . bu● h. t. contenting himself to have set down these texts , leaves the reader to extract what he can out of them , and passeth on to the proof of his minor , that the church now in communion with the see of rome , and no other , has had a continued succession from christ and his apostles to this time ; which according to his meaning , is as if he had said , the church either in rome , or italy , or spain , or france , or germany , or poland , or any other part of the world , which hath owned the pope and his doctrine , and been subject to his rule , and no other , has had a continued succession of bishops , priests , and laicks , professing the same faith with the now bishop of rome , so conspicuous as that there may be a catalogue of such produced out of good records , and no other can do so . so that then if he proves his minor , he must prove , . that church to have this succession continued . . that no other hath . which he takes on him to do , by a catalogue of the roman churches chief pastors , councils , nations converted , and publique professors of her faith. but his catalogue proves not that which it is brought for . for . many hundreds of years there hath been no one of the roman popes , or very few , who have been pastors at all in the church of god ; they have been statesmen , have meddled with the civil affairs of many kingdoms , disturbed the empire and many kingdoms , advanced their base sons , who are tearmed their nephews , and their kindred , made wars with christian princes ; but have not preached the gospel , nor expounded the scriptures to the people , though even the council of tre●t decree , sess●● . de reform . c. . sess . . de reform . c. . that they ought to be resident , because they ought to feed their flock with the word , with sacraments , with prayers , and good works , which is the onely feeding which can denominate men pastors of the church of god. but the popes have for a long time shewed themselves neither to have skill nor will thus to feed the flock by preaching the gospel , but use to stay the flock of christ by their bulls , excommunications , and inquisitions . . of those he reckons up , p. . from the year . five or six of them cannot be termed the roman churches pastors , but hire●ings , which forsook it , they being absent from rome , and inhabiting avignon in france , many hundred miles from rome , seventy years together . . some of them who are reckoned in the catalogue could not be pastors at their entry , one , to wit , benedict . the ninth , being a boy almost ten years old , as baronius terms him , ann. . num . . another , john the thirteenth , a lad eighteen years old at most , as baronius , ann. . num . . & . reckons , when they first were popes . and if a great many of their own best writers in their times do not bely them , there was one of the popes a woman , and sate some years as pope . . their succession is a very uncertain thing . for . it is certain that jesus christ was never pastor of the roman church , as bishop there seated ; and it is very audaciously , if not blasphemously done by h. t. to reckon him as chief pastor of the roman church , and to make peter and others as successors to him in his pastoral office , as if it were ceased in his own person , and transferred to another as his successor . nor is it likely that peter was ever at rome , or bishop there , notwithstanding some of the ancients by uncertain tradition have conceived he was . for neither were the apostles settled any where as bishops of one place , nor were they to be , it being against their commission , and peculiar work of planting churches in many places . and peter being the apostle of the circumcision , gal. . . and his being many years in the parts about judea ( of which the scripture makes express mention ) it is very improbable that he was at rome at all , certainly not so as to sit there as bishop so many years , as some writers do write of him . and it is more likely , if any where , he was bishop of antioch , where it is certain he was , gal. . . and as good authority there is of his being bishop there , as of his being bishop of rome , and therefore the succession to peter was rather to be there than at rome ; nor is there any proof of translation of peter's see from antioch to rome . . concerning the succession after peter , there is so much uncertainty , as may shew how miserable a people they must needs be , who have no better proof for their church than such uncertain succession . for . there is no certainty , but difference among their own writers , who was next after , whether linus or clemens , or whether both together , and the like concerning the order of cletus , anacletus , clemens , as may be seen in platina and onuphrius , and others . . it is manifest , that the succession hath been through dissention about the election sometimes a great while interrupted , as baronius confesseth , ann. . num . . it hath fallen out , that the see of rome hath been void above two years and five moneths , the election being delayed through contention . . there have been many schisms , very near thirty , in which there have been two or three popes at once , one opposing , cursing and condemning the other , and no clear certainty who was the right pope , nations and princes being divided , some adhering to one , some to another . . a great part of their succession , even by the confession of their own writers , is of monsters , as they term them , more truly to be termed devils incarnate rather than men , so abominably wicked , that hell hath not worse in it , not worthy of the name of christians , much less of pastors of the church of god , not worse surely in any church , i think not the like for wickedness any where ; so that the succession of such pastors is fitter to prove the roman party a synagogue of satan , the very seat of antichrist , than the onely true church of god. methinks no man that thinks well of christ , should imagine he would trust the government of the universal church with such men , but rather if he intended to commit that care to any one , have chosen a better race than the popes have been to manage it . . their succession is also by their own writers said to be with such wicked practices of poysoning predecessors , corrupting cardinals , power of notorious whores , dealing with the devil , simony and bribes , fightings and bloodshed , as proves them successors to nero , rather than to peter . so that if a man would draw an argument to prove the roman church to be the mother of barlots and abominations of the earth ( as rome is stiled , rev. . . by the confession of their own writers ) the story of the succession of the popes and their lives , might convince one that is not bewitched with their sorceries , that such hath been for many hundred years together the church of rome . . it is also false , that those he calls cheif pastors , have had a continued succession in the profession of the same faith with the now roman , sith it is not denied , that pope liberius joyning with the arians , and subscribing to the condemnation of athanasius , ( as hierom in his chronicle and catalogue of writers , in that of fortunatianus testifies ) did , as bellarmin acknowledgeth , l. . de rom. pont. c. . by interpretation , if not expresly , consent to the arian heresie : and pope honorius the first in the sixth synod at constantinople , act. . & . pope agatho being president , was condemned as a monothelite by hundreds of bishops , and after by other synods ; besides what is charged on sundry other popes even by popish writers , as anastasius , john the . &c. as for h. t. his catalogue of councils , nations converted , and publick professors of the romish faith ; it proves much less , that the church now in communion with the see of rome , has had a continued succession of bishops , priests and laicks , succeeding one another in the profession of the same faith , with the now roman church from christ and his apostles to this time . for , . according to his own allegation , the agreement of profession is never in any age entirely the same in points of faith , afore the sixteenth century and the trent council . in all the ages before , the most he can produce is , that after the five or sixth first centuries , some in each age held some of the points now held by the papists , but denied by protestants ; the most we can find in the first ages , is some agreement in rites , and some priviledges of the roman bishop , taken either from forged writings imposed on the first popes , or some sayings of fathers misinterpreted . . he confesseth sundry ages , to wit , the second and third produced no councils ; and that he finds no general council nor yet provincial in the tenth age , in which any controversie of moment was decided . . of those councils he doth produce , there is no one general council alleged in the four first centuries , which was held at rome , or did acknowledge subjection to the bishop of rome , as now they require , and they being all or most of them of the greek ▪ church , which did and doth yet deny such communion with the see of rome , as h. t. means , it is falsly said , that they prove his continued succession in the church now in communion with the see of rome . . for the nations converted and christian professors in his catalogue , there were few of them romans or converted by any from rome , or had any acquaintance with the roman church or bishops ; and therefore to make them witnesses of a succession of bishops , priests and laicks in the profession of the same faith continued from christ and his apostles to this time in the church now in communion with the see of rome , is extreme impudence and vanity : nevertheless let 's view his catalogue . sect . vii . the catalogue of h. t. is defective for the proof of his pretended succession in the roman church , in the first three hundred years . in the first age he alledgeth christ , and st. peter the apostle , linus , cletus , clemens , and the council of the apostles at hierusalem , st. peter presiding act. . as a general council , and then he recites eleven roman bishops from the year , and having said somewhat for peters presiding , and the translation of his chair from antioch to rome ; he names some catholick professors to the year . and the spreading of the church over all those countries ; to which st. paul wrote his epistles and some others , as france , spain , england , and some catholick professors to the year . with a falsly , so called canon of the apostles approved in the six●h general synod . answ . that all this is little to his purpose , appears by considering . that it is manifestly false , which he supposeth . . that because christ is the chief pastor of the catholick church rightly so termed , and the roman church hath arrogantly usurped the title of the catholick church , and the pope is bishop of that see ; therefore the pope must be successour to christ in such a peculiar manner , as no other bishop or pastor is ; and that the title of vicar of christ belongs to him peculiarly , which is the title blasphemously ascribed to him by flattering romanists . . that christ hath a successor in his pastoral office , though the scripture ascribe to christ , because of his living for ever , an office which passeth not to any other , as aarons did , heb. . . . that peter is successor to christ in the pastoral office he had , and no other apostle , or bishop besides the bishop of rome ; though if there were any that could challenge succession to christ or peter , it should be rather the bishop of jerusalem the mother church , if any , where christ preached , and as the apostle and high priest of our profession offered himself , being minister of the circumcision , rom. . . and peter was apostle of the circumcision , gal. . . and paul when he went to see him ( which romanists make an acknowledgement of superiority ) went to jerusalem , gal. . . not to rome , and if he were president in the council , act. . as h. t. imagins , it was at hierusalem , not at rome . . it is false , that either christ , or peter , or the catholick professors he names in the first and second ages , held the same profession of faith with the now roman church in the points , wherein the protestants , who hold the doctrine of the church of england , do dissent from them . . that if all were granted , h. t. which he saith about the succession in the two first ages , yet it doth not amount to the proof of so much as one of the twenty eight articles he holds in his manual , or the articles in pope pius the fourth his creed , to have been held by any of them , not the popes supremacy , transubstantiation , invocation of saints deceased , half communion , worshipping of images , &c. for peter might be president at the council at jerusalem , he might translate his chair from antioch to rome , it might be decreed lawful to appeal from other bishops to the bishop of rome , chief honour might be given to the bishop of rome ; yet neither peter nor the bishop of rome the head , visible monarch or ruler over the apostles and the whole church : mention might be made of oblation and sacrifice , yet the masse no properly so called sacrifice propitiatory for quick and dead . there 's not a word in any of christs , or john baptists , or peters , or pauls , or james , or johns , or judes sermons or writings , to prove any of the points of popery , but enough to the contrary . nor is there any of the rest of the martyrs or confessors alledged of the two first ages , of whom he is able to produce any one sentence of theirs , which may demonstrate their acknowledging of any one of the points now held by the romanists , which are by the protestants forenamed contradicted : which will appear by considering the frivolousness of what h. t. here produceth . peter , saith he , defined , act. . , , , . that the jewish ceremonies were not to be imposed on the gentiles , therefore he had the premacy over the apostles and the whole church , as if the defining in a council or colledge did prove superiority . by the same reason it might be proved that james had the premacy , sith he spake least , and according to his sentence was the decree . paphnutius in the nicene council , as sozome●●l . hist . c. . relates , when the council was about to forbid priests the use of wives , defined the contrary , and the nicene council approved it ; was he therefore the primate over the other bishops in the council ? as in consequence it is which h. t. adds : hicrom saith , peter was prince and author of the decree , therefore he had the primacy , that is the supreme headship over the apostles and whole church , though being [ prince and author of the decree ] imports no more , but to give sentence first , according to which the decree was framed . but james who spake after , was he according to whose sentence the decree was framed entirely , however peter began before ; so that by this reason james had the primacy , and not peter . a like in consequent is this , peter remained not always at antioch , as all that church acknowledgeth , nor did she ever challenge the first chair in any general council , as appears in the councils , ergo peter translated his chair from antioch to rome : risum teneat is araici ? as if peter did always remain at rome ; or that because we read not of antioch's challenge , therefore it was not made , or as if the not challenging the first chair , were because of peters translation of his chair from thence to rome , whereas the very decree of the chalcedon council , can. . gives rome the first chair because of the dignity of the city , not by reason of peters supremacy , or translation of his chair from antioch to rome , of the same sort of inconsequence is the next . the council of sardis ( sardica in illyria , anno domini . western fathers . estern . ) decreed , that in cases of bishops for honour of st. peters memory , it should be lawful to appeal from whatsoever bishop to the bishop of rome , can. . therefore the primacy was in peter , and after him in the bishop of rome . for , . this council ( whatever it were ) was not in the first or second ages . . nor was it reckoned , no not by the roman church of old among o●cumenical councils , much less by the greeks who refused to be present , as socrates relates , l. . c. . unless athana●ius were removed for not yielding , whereto the bishops of the east met by themselves at philippi in thracia , and made decrees apart saith sozom. l. . c. . yea however in the late edition of the councils at paris , corrupt devices are used to gain the credit of a general council to it , and for some advantage to the papacy to make its canons of authority : yet h. t. makes it to have had but seventy six eastern fathers , when there were three hundred western ; and the ignorance of any general councils establishing appeals from africa to rome in the sixth council of carthage , shews that it was not taken for an o●cumenical council . . nor doth the canon it self decree as h. t. sets down , that the bishop of rome should have power to receive appeals , and to judge the cause , but in case of the deposition of a bishop , they permit the bishop of rome to deliberate whether the judgement should be renewed , and then consider whether he should send some from his side who might be present at the renewed cognizance of it , and if it should seem meet , also appoint judges out of a neighbouring province : none of which give the bishop of rome a judiciary power , but onely a directory . nor was this to be extended to any other than those of the western countreys , the africans and greeks ever rejecting it . . the very canon it self expresseth the reason of it , not any divine appointment , or ancient use , the council of nice having to the contrary , can. . determined that such controversies should be ended in a provincial council , but it was then proposed first by hosius , for honour of st. peter's memory , and the last determination of the cause to be by a council , can. . & . no betis that which h. t. adds , the council of chalcedon , anno . said , all primary and chief honour according to the canons was to be kept for the archbishop of old rome , therefore this is good evidence that in the first age the primacy was in peter and the pope . for neither doth that council held in the fifth age mention what honour or primacy the bishop of rome had in the two first ages , nor doth it ascribe to the bishop of rome any superiority , but doth expresly in that very canon ascribe to the other patriarchs equality with the roman bishop in power , however he were first in order , and this was determined notwithstanding the reluctancy of the popes legates . the rest is as vain . pope antherus anno . said , peter was changed from antioch to rome , gregory in the sixth age said , he knew no bishop , but is subject to the see of rome , epist . . ergo , peter and the pope had the supreme headship over the whole church in the first age. as if the counterfeit writing of a pope in the third age , or the saying of a pope in the sixth age of what was then in use ( though not true , sith the greek bishops to his knowledge were not subject ) without telling them by what means it was so , were a sufficient proof either of right or possession in the first age of so great a power as the bishop of rome now claims , what he adds , that the ( falsely so called ) canons of the apostles define , that if any bishop or priest ( the oblation ( h. t. ●oysts in the , word mass ) being made ) shall not communicate he should be excommunicate , as giving suspition of him who hath sacrificed that he hath not rightly offered , can. . approved in the sixth general synod , therefore the apostles professed a sacrifice properly so called propitiatory for quick and dead in the mass , is as frivolous . for neither were those canons made by the apostles , as many things in them shew , and if they were , private masses used by papists should be condemned , nor doth it follow there is mention of a sacrifice and offering , therefore in the mass was christ offered as a propitiatory sacrifice properly so called , sith it might be termed , as it is in many of the ancients , an eucharistical or commemorative sacrifice , not a propitiatory sacrifice , properly so called . this h. t. in the two first ages brings for the proof of his minor ; let us go on to view his catalogue in the next age. he sets down fifteen bishops of rome , whereof the last pope marcellinus was condemned in a council at sinuessa ( if there were such a council ) for his idolatry , confesseth no councils in the second and third ages , yet claims a succession of popes , martyrs , and confessors sufficient for his purposes , and then sets down decrees of eight popes in their epistles , which have been long since proved counterfeit by dr. john rainold confer . with hart chap. . divis . . in which the forger tells us , that pope anacletus decreed anno dom. . that priests when they sacrifice to our lord must not do it alone , ( which is against private masses , and proves not a propitiatory sacrifice properly so called in the mass ) that the apostles so appointed , and the roman church holds ( if so then the roman church , which now holds private masses , holds not the same tenet it did then ) if more difficult questions shall arise , let them be referr'd to the apostolick see ( of rome , which is h. t. his addition ) for so the apostles have ordained by the commandment of our lord ( no where extant , nor any way probable ) that pope alexander decreed , that bread onely and wine mingled with water should be offered in the sacrifice of the mass , that pope sixtus declared anno . that the sacred mysteries and sacred vessels should not be touched but by sacred ministers , and that the priest beginning mass , the people should sing holy ! holy ! holy ! and that telesphorus commanded the seven weeks of lent ●o be fasted , epist . decret . anno dom. . pius in his epistle to the italians enjoyned penance for him , by whose negligence any of the blood of our lord should be spilt , anno dom. . anicetus tells us , that james was made bishop of jerusalem by st. peter , james and john , in his decretal epistle to the bishops of france . soter decreed that no man should say mass after he had eaten or drunk . zepherinus decreed that the greater causes of the church are to be determined by the apostolick see , because so the apostles and their successors had ordained , epist . to the bishops of sicily , . and then h. t. adds , these were all bishops of rome , but no protestants i hope . which is a ridiculous passage , shewing his folly in triumphing insolently over his adversaries upon such frivolous allegations . for , . who that knows those times of persecution confessed by himself , p. . and therefore the second and third ages produced no councils , in which many of the popes were martyrs , would imagine that they should busie themselves in making decrees about sacred places , sacred vessels , hearing of greater causes , fasting in lent , when they were in danger to be shut up in prisons , necessitated to hide themselves , wanted perhaps food of any sort by reason of persecution ? . or who that reades authours of those and other ages does not perceive in those epistles the style and terms of far later ages ? . but were it supposed they were the genuine epistles of those popes , yet there is no proof from thence of the now roman faith held by them in the points gainsaid by protestants , as v. g. transubstantiation , or the popes visible headship over the whole church . they might call the eucharist a sacrifice , yet not properly so called propitiatory for quick and dead . pius might call the spilling of wine , spilling of christs blood , signified by it , as the cup is termed the blood of the new testament , because it is signified by it , lent fast , fasting afore mass , mingling water and wine might be appointed , yet no real substantial presence of christ's body and blood taught , the greater causes of the church , and more difficult questions referred to the apostolick see , and yet no supreme headship over the whole church deduced thence . as for the tale of james his being made bishop of jerusalem by st. peter , james , and john , it rather makes against peter's supremacy , than for it , fith in that no more is ascribed to peter than to james and john : so that we may grant him , that they were popes of rome , and yet aver they were true protestants in respect of their doctrine , though differing in frivolous ceremonies , if the epistles alleged had been their own , ( which is altogether improbable ) and slight the folly of h. t. in triumphing afore the victory . his catalogue of catholick professors to the year . is in like manner ridiculous , some of them being of the african , a●ian , and greek churches , that had no such communion with the see of rome as h. t. makes necessary to the being of a true church ; yea it is well known that cyprian bishop of carthage , and other african bishops opposed stephen and cornelius bishops of rome about appeals to roms , and in the point of rebaptization of the baptized by hereticks , which was afterward determined by the authority of the nicene council , not by the bare authority of the roman bishops . nor is one word brought by h. t. that shews they held the same faith which the roman church now holds in opposition to the protestants . thus have i examined his catalogue for the first three hundred years , which were the best and purest times of the church , as being the times of the ten great persecutions , and have not found the succession which h. t. asserts . let 's view the rest . sect . viii . the catalogue of h. t. is defective in proof of his pretended succession in the roman church in the fourth and fifth centuries . in the fourth age he begins with a catalogue of catholick professors to the year . of whom some were of the african churches , some of the greek , some of the asiatick , some of the latin churches : but he shews not that any one either owned the popes supremacy , or the doctrine of the romanists , which he maintains against the protestants . sure hierom was no assertor of the papacy , who in his epistle to euagrius makes bishops and presbyters the same , and the bishop of rome of no higher , but of the same merit and priesthood with the bishop of eugubium . and for the nations converted which he mentions , there were some of them , as indians and ethiopians , who it is not likely ever heard of the roman church , nor had any conversion from them . no● is it likely that any of them either owned the popes or church of rome's supremacy , or any point of doctrine , they now hold in opposition to the protestants . as for the fourteen popes of this century , what ever their succession were , ( which is not without question ) yet that they did assert as due to them such a supremacy as the popes now claim , or that faith , which now the papists hold in opposition to the protestants , cannot be proved . the same may be said of the two general councils he mentions in the fourth century , to wit , the first nicene , and the first constantinopolitan : which never ascribed to the bishop of rome any more power than to the bishops of alexandria and constantinople , nor after them the ephesin and chalcedonian in the fifth century . h. t. himself saith onely , the first nicene council was approved by pope sylvester , but doth not affirm that either he called it , or was present at it , or was president of it , and it being confessed that hosius bishop of corduba was president there by bellarmine himself , lib. . de concil . & eccl. c. . tom ▪ . controv . he imagines , but proves not hosius to have been the popes legate out of the council , or any one that was there . and whereas h. t. saith , the first constantinopolitan council ( fathers . . ) pope damasus pre●iding , anno . against macedonius , it is contradicted by bellarmine in the same place . it is also manifest that the roman pope was not president there , but nectarius bishop of constantinople : of which thing the cause is , because the roman pope was neither present by himself , nor by his legates . what he adds of pope caelestin his presi●ing in the council at ephesus against nestorius , anno . is not true , sith it is manifest from the subscription to the council , that cyril of al●xandria was president there , and with him juvenal of jerusalem . and though it be said , that cyril held the place of pope caelestinus , yet that was in giving suffrage to shew the agreement of the patriarchs , not in presidency , or if in presidency , yet so as to be president , suo jure , by his own right , as one of the patriarchs without deputation from rome . h. t. adds , the chalcedon council ( fathers . ) pope leo presiding , anno dom . against eutyches . but pope leo was president onely by his legates , and together with them anatolius patriarch of constantinople , and juvenal of jerusalem , did preside . and when the popes legates opposed the ascribing to the patriarch of constantinople equal authority and privileges with the bishop of rome , yet the six hundred fathers determined for the patriarch of constantinople . but what do the councils in these two ages say for h. t. his minor ? he brings some passages out of the arabick canons and the decrees , as if the nicene council asserted the popes supremacy and the real presence . but those arabick canons are of no credit , being but lately ( as they say ) brought by a certain jesuit from the patriarch of alexandria , and those variously published by pisanus and turrian , in which are eighty canons : whereas of old in the nicene synod there were but twenty , and the letter of the african bishops ( of whom augustin was one ) in the sixth synod at carthage written to the pope of rome , assuring that the copies of the nicene canons which cecilian bishop of carthage brought from nice , and the copies they had from cyril of alexandria and atticus of constantinople , had not the canon about appeals to rome from all parts , which three bishops of rome alleged ; but the true canons of the nicene council , to wit , the fifth and the sixth being against the arrogated power about appeals to the bishop of rome , in vain doth h. t. obtrude his nine and thirtieth and the threescore and fifth can. arab. for the popes supremacy and prayer for the dead . and for the canon , that forbids deacons to give the eucharist presbyters being present , ( which he bring for the countenancing of the sacrifice of the mass ) the genuine words of the canon mention not a power in priests ( as he terms them ) to offer sacrifice , which deacons have not , but a restraint of deacons from that giving the eucharist , presbyters being present , which they might do in their absence . and for the other testimonies which he fetcheth out of the decretals , for baptisms , purging away sin , and the unbloody sacrifice , they are of no validity , being not taken out of the acts of the council , but the compiler of the canon-law , who thrust into the canon-law all sorts of determinations , whether they were chaff or wheat , genuine or supposititious . and yet if they were genuine they may have a sense agreeing with protestant doctrine . the decree of the first constantinopolitan council against macedonius , which decreed the bishop of constantinople to be chief next to the bishop of rome , proves not that the fathers then ascribed to the bishop of rome such a supremacy of power as now the popes arrogate over all bishops , but the contrary . for it doth make the bishop of constantinople a chief , not under the bishop of rome , but next him , and ascribes to him honour and dignity alike with the bishop of rome , though in order of mentioning , sitting and some such like acts it prefers the bishop of rome . in the first ephesin council , if peter were defined head and prince of the apostles , yet they never meant thereby superiority and power over them , but priority in order , and excellency in virtue . the power of binding and loosing sins was not given to peter any otherwise than to other apostles , john . . in the third action ( saith h. t. ) pope leo is called universal arch-bishop . and it is granted that the council extolled leo , yet they made him not universal bishop over all bishops in the world , but he was styled occumenical archbishop of old rome , not by the council , but by particular men of the council , which yet did give it to john of constantinople : but by none was that title then given to either in that sense in which now the pope claims it ; for that very council did ascribe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , equal privileges or segniories to the other patriarchs with the bishop of rome , notwithstanding the gainsaying of the popes legates ; which determination was again confirmed in the sixth synod at constantinople in trullo in the sixth age. the sense in which the title of oecumenical , or universal bishop was given to any of the patriarchs was not given to them as ascribing to them supremacy & power over all bishops , and churches , as afterwards john of constantinople affected the title , and boniface of rome usurped it by the means of phocas the emperour , but it was given to each of the patriarchs for their eminency by reason of their great care of the churches , in like manner as paul said of himself , cor. . . upon me cometh daily the care of all the churches : which was therefore put on them because of the dignity of their cities , and amplitude of the rule and dominion which was exercised there by the emperours lieutenants , by means whereof the bishops of those cities had the advantage of intelligence and assistance in the ordering of things belonging to many churches in a large compass , even as at this day a patriarch at london hath an advantage for the ordering of things concerning the british and irish churches : the regiment of the churches in those days much following the government of the empire , as is manifest by the acts of councils and histories of those times . it is granted that in the fifth age pope leo affected the extolling of peter , and did it too immoderately , and that the phrase of peter's doing what the pope did was in use : and this proves that then ambition had crept in among the bishops , and the affecting of vain titles increased , and that in respect of these things there was great corruption in the patriarchs and other bishops , which grew to an extreme height afterwards ; yet neither in that age nor any other was that power over the whole church , which now the popes and their flatterers challenge ascribed unto them without controul of the sounder part , and is yet to this day opposed by the french popish churches , and some other . that which is added by h. t. of the council of eleberis in spain , and the second of atles in france , about priests abstaining from their wives , or else to be degraded , and that no man who was married could be made a priest unless a conversion were promised , is but of provincial synods , not general councils , about a matter onely of ecclesiastical discipline , not a point of faith , about which alone is the question , whether he can prove such a succession as he asserts in all ages : besides the eleberin canon supposeth they had then wives ; and it appears that till then they did use them , and that there were married priests : but many being corrupted in their opinions of marriage by the debasing of it as carnal , and extolling virginity as meritorious , began to put that yoke on men , which occasioned in after ages the intolerable tyranny of denying marriage to priests , against gods allowance , and the practice of former ages . the catholick professours he mentions to the year . were many of the greek and other churches , who , though they held communion with the bishop of rome in opposing the heresies then risen , yet did neither acknowledge the popes supremacy now challenged , nor held the doctrine the romanists now teach in opposition to protestants . as for the nations converted , scots , french , the martyrs of africa , which he mentions , it is not shewed , that either they were converted by any from rome , or acknowledged subjection to him as the supreme oecumenical bishop , or held what the romanists now hold against protestants . and thus have i shewed the insufficiency for the proof of his minor of the catalogue of h. t. of the first five hundred years , within which he included his demonstration , which were better than the later , though not without their corruptions . i proceed to view what he saith of the sixth and other ages following . sect . ix . the defect of h. t. his catalogue for proof of his succession in the sixth , seventh , eighth , ninth , tenth ages is shewed . h. t. in his catalogue from the year of christ . reckons up thirteen chief pastors , one general council , the second constantinopolitan pope vigilius prefiding ( fathers . an. dom , . ) against anthimius and theodore : but bellarmine himself confesseth lib. . de concil . c. . that eutychius of constantinople was president there , though vigilius bishop of rome was then at constantinople , as for that which bellarmine cites out of zonaras in the life of justinian , he cites it maimedly . for zonaras said not that onely vigilius was prince of the bishops who were present , but with him eutychius of constantinople and apollinaris of alexandria . what h. t. mentions of the definitions of the council is nothing against the protestants , nor for the papacy . that which he allegeth out of the third council of carthage is disorderly placed in the sixth age , it being held , as is said , in the year . and is of doubtfull credit , sith it mentions pope boniface as then living , though he sat not , according to onuphrius , till the year . but it matters not what it was , sith it was but a provincial synod : and of the canons cited by h. t. the first is onely about a point not of faith , concerning the celebrating the mass , fasting ; the other , which terms the apocryphal books as canonical , may be expounded , according to hierom's distinction , that they are canonical to form manners , not to inform faith . yet this may be observed by the way , that the six and twentieth canon of the third council of carthage , which was authorized by the sixth general council holden at constantinople , in trullo , as it is alleged by gratian in the decrees dist . . de primatibus , and by pope pelagius approved , denies to any the title of chief priest , or prince of priests , but alows onely this title , bishop of the first see : whereupon the gloss saith , that even the bishop of rome was not to be called the universal bishop . the determination of the council of mileris about childrens baptism is disorderly placed in the sixth age , being said to be held in the year . and being no general council about a point not gainsaid by most protestants , is impertinent to prove a succession of assertors of the roman doctrine opposite to the protestants . that which he allegeth out of the caesar augustan council , which decreed that virgins should not be vailed till after forty years probation , makes against the papists , who in the trent council , allow it sooner , and practise the vasting of them afore they are twenty years old . that which he adds of pope john the first his decree , that mass ought not to be celebrated , but in places consecrated to our lord , unless great necessity should enforce it , because it is written , see thou offer not thy holocausts in every place , which the lord thy god hath chosen , deut. . shews the popes ignorance or judaism , who applies this to the mass , which was meant of jewish sacrificing in the levitical law , and makes the mass to be an offering of an holocaust , and every place consecrated by a bishop , the place that god chooseth , and also the vanity of this scribler , who puts in his catalogue such an impertinent testimony to prove a succession of the assertors of the roman faith , which i scarce think any sober papist would make any part of his faith against protestants , nor do i think the papists in england would be content to be tied to that law. in that which he adds of catholick professors to the year . he doth not shew that they acknowledged the bishop of rome's supremacy or the now roman faith . yea columbanus in this age , and after aidanus , colmannus , and others lived and died in opposition to the romans about easter . that austin the monk converted england , is onely true of some part of it , and it is true also that he did in many things pervert them , and it is said he was an instigator of the murder of many british christians better than himself : but that either he , or pope gregory that sent him , held the same supremacy of the pope , which now popes claim , or the now - roman faith opposite to the protestants cannot be shewed . on the contrary , it is manifest enough , that gregory the great refused the title of universal bishop , as profane , and sacrilegious , and accounted the assumer of it to be a fore-runner of antichrist , lib . epist . , , , , . & lib. . epist . . he allowed not worship of images in his epistle to serenus bishop of marseiles , he allowed priests wives , nor did tie men to follow the order of the roman church , which shews the popes then not to have been altogether so bad as in the next age . in which and throughout the rest of his catalogue he can hardly shew a pope that lived either the life of a christian , or did the office of a pastour of the church of god , if any , sure not many : but in stead of christian pastours a generation of men of an ambitious and luxurious spirit , contending with emperours and bishops for worldly greatness , persecuting godly christians , living in pomp , riot , and all kinde of wickedness , are set down as chief pastours of the universal church . in the seventh age he reckons up nineteen popes , whom he terms chief pastors : of them the second is boniface the third , who obtained of phocas the emperor ( who by treason had gotten the empire , slaying his lord mauritius and his children ) the title of universal bishop , detested before by gregory the great , as profane and sacrilegious ; and honorius the first , is the fifth condemned in the third constantinopolitan council , in which h. t. saith , there were fathers two hundred eighty nine , pope agatho presiding , anno domini . against the monothelites , and that in it were condemned sergius , paulus , petrus , cyrus , and theodore , who most impiously taught , but one will and operation to be in christ . but this author deceitfully conceals it , that the same council in the thirteenth action , did solemnly condemn honorius the pope of old rome as a monothelite together with the rest ; and again in the greek edition the first chapter , and that pope agatho in his epistle to the sixth council , doth anathematize his predecessor honorius as a monothelite , and pope leo the second , in his epistle to constantine the emperor , inserted in the eighth action of the sixth synod , which was also done in the second nicene council , termed the seventh synod in the last action . as for that which h. t. adds of the definitions of the sixth council against priests marriage , not giving grapes , mingling water and wine , adoration of the crosse , consideration in him that binds and looseth , invocating saints ; it is not worth while to insist on the examination thereof , partly because some of the definitions serve not the purpose ; for though it be granted , that there ought to be a particular knowledge of the sin of him that is to be absolved by his confession of it , yet is not thereby the necessity of popish auricular confession proved , or the priests power judicially and authoritatively to absolve , and remit sins established , partly because they are not all points of faith , but either of disciplin , as about the marriage of men in orders , or of ceremonies , as about the mingling of water and wine in the eucharist ; and partly because it is doubtful whether those canons are truely ascribed to that council , there being some reasons tending to the contrary , and partly because if they were their determinations , there is little reason to ascribe any authority to them , after the first six hundred years barbarism , and many corruptions being gotten into the christian churches , and the simplicity of the christian profession very much changed into contentions about bishops sees , ecclesiastical priviledges , humane ceremonies , and such like abuses : yet , were all granted which he allegeth of the councils definitions , neither the now roman supremacy nor faith is proved , nor from the catholick professors , as he terms them , or nations converted are either of them avouched in that age . in the eighth century things grew worse . in it h. t. reckons thirteen popes , among whom there 's not a man , of whom their own writers relate any thing that belongs to the pastors of the church of christ , to wit , the preaching of the gospel ; but their intermedling with the business of the empire and kingdoms , making kings monks , contentions about images in churches , enlarging their dominions , building walls , making decrees about shaven crowns and such like toyes ... two popes , zacharias and stephen the second , can hardly be acquitted from being sinfully instrumental in the deposing of childerick king of france , and the traiterous usurpation of pepin . as for the second nicene council , in which h. t. saith , were three hundred and fifty fathers , pope adrian presiding , anno domini . against image breakers , in which were decreed for images in temples , and the veneration and worship of the saints , reliques , images , and the council of sens about traditions , though these things are but a few of the popish doctrins , yet we grant , that then the popes had gotten to such heighth as to justle emperors , and that the churches in communion with the papacy were in that age and the following so corrupt , as that traditions of men and decrees of bishops were more regarded than the written word ; and that thereby placing of images in temples , and their worship got into the christian churches to the promoting of that idolatry in the roman church , which hath made her the mother of harlots , and of abominations of the earth : yet this was not done without opposition , not only in the greek empire , but also in the western : charles the great calling a council at frankford , which condemned the second nicene council . and for the catholick professors , such as venerable bede and others , though they were tainted with the superstitions of those times about monkery , and ceremonies , and ecclesiastical dignities and orders , yet that they held the now roman faith cannot be demonstrated , nor that the nations mentioned to be converted were converted to it . and for the miracles mentioned there is no credit to be given to them , many such tales having been made , or such miracles counterfieted in those dayes for deceiving the ignorant people : nor were they done in such manner and to such purposes , as the miracles of christ and his apostles were by which the gospel was confirmed . in the nineteenth age h. t. reckons up eighteen popes , omitting the mention of one of them as a woman ; though a great number of popish writers set her down as pope , and relate the story of her sitting in the chair some years , till she travailed with child in procession . but if that were not true , yet the things related by themselves of formosus , stephanus , romanus shew cruelty and wickedness in the popes of that age , one hating and undoing what another had done , and thereby shewing that they were rather of cadmus , than st. peters race . and for the fourth constantinopolitan council ( fathers one hundred and one ) pope adrian presiding , anno domini . against photius , and for the pope and images , and against temporal princes medling in the election of bishops ; it is an argument , that the roman bishops were gotten then by many wicked practices to a great heighth of unjust power . and the deposition of photius for reproving the emperor , together with his opposition of the pope ( whose works extant do shew him to have been of more worth for learning than any pope in that age ) and the epistle of ulderick bishop of auspurg to pope nicolas the first , in which he rebukes the wickedness of popes in denying marriage to the clergy , do prove that the doctrin and tyranny of the popes of rome , did not freely pass without controul even in that age , which by the confession of genebrard himself , chron. l. . was an unhappy age for want of any writer of worth in the latin church . as for the catholick professors mentioned by h. t. in this age , that they were all of the roman church , or professed her faith is not shewed : not that the nations converted , were either converted by the roman bishops , or owned their now claimed supremacy or professed faith ; h. t. saith the russians were converted by a priest sent by the emperor basilius , and therefore had their conversion from the greek church whom they followed , and with whom they now hold communion , not acknowledging the bishop of romes supremacy to this day , and therefore that instance is manifestly against h. t. his purpose . in the tenth age are reckoned twenty six popes , whereof there 's scarce any that may be termed a christian , much less a chief pastor of the christian churches . their own stories tell us of some of them that got the popedome by means of mororia a notorious whore , others by cruel practises : one , to wit sylvester the second , by the help of the devil , whose agents they were in bringing a deluge of ignorance and wickedness into the world , which made that age to be termed a miserable age , in which were neither famous writers , nor councils , nor popes that cared for the publick , by bellarmin in his book of ecclesiastical writers , and of it h. t. here saith , in this tenth age or century i find no general council , nor yet provincial in which any controversie of moment was decided . so that by his own confession , his catalogue of councils fails him . and for his succession of chief pastors , it is of such persons and so uncertain a succession , and by such irregular ways , as yeilds proof that rome was the synagogue of satan , not the church of christ . of the catholick professors added , some of them , as dunstan , &c. were such , as it may be well doubted whether they are in heaven or in hell . and for the nations converted , it is not proved they were of the now roman faith . sect . x. the defect of h. t. his catalogue of succession in the eleventh and twelfth age is shewed . in the eleventh age are reckoned eighteen popes worse , if it may be , as bad as any in hell ; most of them magicians , if their own writers speak truth : from sylvester the second , to gregory the seventh , all necromancers , saith benno a cardinal of rome ; john the seventeenth or eighteenth , h. t. himself is not resolved whether , so uncertain is his succession on which he builds the truth of his church . their practises were to poyson one another , and to set up one king and emperor against another to advance their own greatness , and to domineer over the greatest princes by the terror of their excommunications , and giving away their dominions : which was brought to a stupendous heighth by hildebrand , otherwise gregory the seventh , under whose reign satan seems to have been let loose for the executing of vengeance on the emperors , that had so adored popes , as to become their vassals ( whom pope gregory the great acknowledged his lord ) and committed fornication with the whore of babylon . of councils h. t. names but one , telling us , that in this eleventh age about the year . berengarius an archdeacon of ghent ( of aniou he should have said , mistaking gaudavensis for adegavensis ) began to broach his heresie ( he should more truely have said the doctrin of christ , his apostles , the fathers , even gelasius himself bishop of rome , in the first five hundred years , and of the most learned to that time ) concerning the b. sacrament , affirming it to be only a sign or figure of the body and blood of christ , not his true body and blood ; for which , saith h. t. he was condemned in the council of lateran under pope nicolas the second , . as also in the roman council under pope gregory the seventh , anno . where he abjured his heresie in open council , and died a catholick after divers penances done for his sin . but methinks h. t. should be ashamed to mention berengarius his forced abjuration , in which pope nicolas made him say , i believe that the body of our lord jesus christ sensibly and in very deed is touched with the hands of the priests , and broken with , and rent , and ground with the teeth of the faithful , de con . dist . . erg● berengarius , which occasioned the gloss it self to say , unless you warily understand these words of berengarius , you will fall into a greater heresie than ever he held any . and for his catholick professors and nations converted , wherein or how far they avowed the popes supremacy , and the now roman faith is not shewed by him ; nor do i believe he is able to prove , that they did avouch the popes supremacy which is now challenged , or in all things the now roman doctrin , though romish superstitions , and the excessive esteem of the popish bishops did very much corrupt men in those days . if the ignorant devotion of one henricus the emperor with his wife , make any thing for the credit of the roman papacy ; the story of another henricus , to wit , the fourth , his wife and childs usage by gregory the seventh and other popes is such , as that it demonstrates the popes of those times to have been no successors of peter , either in doctrine or practice , but devils incarnate rather than men . and however anselms learning seem to credit the papacy , yet in many points of doctrin he is not for the now roman tenents , as where he saith on rom. . salvation consisteth not in mans merits , but in gods grace , and his contention with the king of england , being animated by the pope is an evidence , that the faith of christ was not so much professed then as the greatness of bishops , and the unrighteous ways of clergymen . in the twelfth age are reckoned up eighteen popes and three lateran councils , of which popes it will be hard for h. t. to shew what their faith was , or to prove they did orderly succeed , especially considering how many antipopes were set up , and what abominable practices were used to get up into the chair , and how wickedly they lived , as men that cared not what rebellions they raised , what wars and bloodsheds they caused , not against infidels , but of subjects against their soveraign christian emperors ; not for the gospel of christ , or their lawful liberties , but for the popes most impudent claim of freedom from subjection to emperors , and investiture of bishops and abbats , things which jesus christ and his apostles never granted , but commanded the contrary . their own writers tell us so much of them , specially of calixtus the second , innocent the second , adrian the fourth , alexander the third , and their monstrous pride in oppressing and insulting on the emperors , beyond what is to be found in any priests of pagan gods towards the princes of the earth , as shews them to be inspired by the devil , not guided by the spirit of god. h. t. adds three lateran councils for instauration of discipline , for the right of the clergy , for reformation , with presidency of calixtus the second , anno of innocent the second , anno . which he tells us defined little in matters of controversie , and so by his own confession prove not his succession in the profession of the same faith . as for the ends in those two councils , which he mentions , all the instauration of disciplin therein was concerning monks in the former , and in the later , the right of the clergy was about the bishop of romes power in civil things at rome , and exempting of clergy men from the senate and consuls of rome . wherein the romans desired to be restored to their ancient power in civil things , but the pope and his council withstood it , anathematizing them that laid hands on a clergy man , yet limiting the bishop of rome in some sort . these are the great businesses of three hundred at one time , and one thousand bishops and abbats at another time . which may shew how little the popes and councils then regarded christs doctrin or precepts , but minded the upholding their own inventions and their usurpations of power . the third lateran council , saith h. t. ( fathers three hundred ) for reformation , pope alexander the third presiding , anno domini . condemned waldensis the merchant of lyons , who taught the apostles were lay men , that lay men and women might consecrate and preach , that clergy men ought to have no possessions or properties , that oaths were unlawful in all cases , that priests and magistrates by mortal sin fell from their dignity , and were not to be obeyed , &c. his tenents were here defined against , and he himself anathematized . but suppose all this were true that he so taught , and that the pope with his council condemned him , what is this to prove h. t. his minor , that a council in that age professed the same faith with the now roman against the protestants ? are the contrary tenents any of the articles , which in his manual of controversies h. t. defends against the protestants ? do the protestant churches in their confessions avow the same , which he here saith the council ascribed to waldensis the merchant of lyons ? but to shew the ignorance of this scribler , the person who was merchant of lyons in france was petrus waldus , from whom his followers were termed waldenses , whom i find to have been condemned in some council at rome about that time , but in the lateran council . i find other decrees about priests continency , the number of horses clergy men might have in their visitations , and the exemption of ecclesiasticks from the judgement of laicks , which it seems were the great business of reformation . as for the waldenses there is no cause to believe adversaries in their accusations of them , especially such ignorant and malicious men as the friers and monks of former and later times have been . besides the experience which after ages yeilded about their belying wicklef , hus and others ; our own times yeild many examples of papists falsly reporting the tenents of protestants . though bellarmin be more ingenuous in setting down the protestants doctrin than many other writers , yet there 's scarce a controversie , wherein he doth not deal deceitfully in representing the protestants doctrin or their arguments and answers . but the writings , professions , apologies put forth by balthasar lydius in latin , shew that the opinions of the waldenses were not such as the papists represent them , and the words of reinerius an inquisitor and enemy to them in his book of inquisition concerning them , doth more truely acquaint us what they were , which are thus , that whereas all other sects by the immanity of their blasphemies against god do make men abhor them , this of the lyonists ( the same with the waldenses ) hath a great shew of godliness , because they live justly before men , and do believe all things well of god , and all the articles which are contained in the creed ; only the church of rome they do blaspheme and hate . and now we have more full knowledge of them , by mr. morlands history of the evangelical churches of piedmont . as for the catholick professors h. t. adds in this age , though bernardus abbas , commonly called st. bernard be reckoned as a professor of the new roman faith , and it is not denied that he was superstitious in some points ; yet he freely noted divers corruptions then arising , as the feast of the virgin maries conception , which tended to uphold the conceit of her freedom from sin , ep. . ad can . lugd. the opinion of merits , serm . . de annunt . of justification by works , cant . serm . . & ep . . of freewill , de grat . & lib. arb . of keeping the law , cant . ser . : of seven sacraments , ser . . de caena domini , of uncertainty of salvation , ep . . and the popes greatness in temporalities , l. . confid . ad eugen. and for hildegardis the nunne , her speeches and prophecies shewed her dislike of the proceedings of the clergy even of the popes . noribertus and some others were noted for their superstitious waies of monkery , thomas becket of canterbury , for his obstinacy against his prince henry the second , whom he traiterously opposed to uphold the wickedness of the clergy , and others named , whether they were of good or bad note it is of little moment , sith it s not denied there were too many then infected with the roman errors and superstitions . nor is it of much advantage , that nicolas the monke , after pope , converted the pomeranians and norwegians , that pope being bad enough , and the conversion , if to romish superstition , rather than christian faith , little crediting the romish church . sect . xi . the defect of h. t. his catalogue of succession in the thirteenth and fourteenth ages is shewed . in the thirteenth century are set down seventeen popes as chief pastors , of whom the first is gelasius the second , who was first in the former age ; but i imagin , though it be not noted in the errata , for honorius the third who was a bloody bishop , as others before him , setting up emperor against emperor , cruel friers against the godly waldenses , besides other wicked acts he did . the like were gregory the ninth , in whose time the bloody factions of guelphs and gibellius happened , and innocent the fourth whom robert grosthead bishop of lincoln withstood , contemning his excommunication , and being dead was such a terror to this wicked pope as to hasten his death . nicolas the third , whom h. t. makes the converter of the pomeranians and norwegians , raised the quarrel between peter of arragon and charles of france for sicily , whence grew the massacre of the french called the sicilian vespers , and the last and worst of them , boniface the eighth is said to have entred like a fox , reigned like a lyon , died like a dog . h. t. adds two general councils : the fourth lateran council ( fathers . ) pope innocent the third presiding , anno . and tells us , that this council desined that the universal church of the faithful , is one out of which no man is saved . which definition we approve , and thereby the doctrin of the protestants is confirmed ; who teach , that the catholick church we believe , is the invisible church of true believers ; and that the catholick church is not only the roman church , and those who subject themselves to the bishop of rome , and profess the same faith with the now roman church : but all the believers who believe the doctrin of the gospel taught by christ and his apostles , though they neither know nor own the roman church in the things therein held against the protestants , nor acknowledge any superiority of the bishop of rome , are members of the catholick church ; and that it is not the church of rome ( which is falsly called catholick ) out of which none can be saved , but the universal church of the faithful ; in which who ever is by true faith in christ he may be saved , though he disclaims the bishop of rome as antichrist , and the faction or party joyning with him as the synagogue of satan ; and consequently , that it is not as h. t. saith in his epistle to the reader , the most important controversie to know the notion and authority of the church ; but to know the true faith , by which alone the true church is known ; and it is a most impudent assertion , which h. t. takes on him in his first article to maintain , that the church now in communion with the see of rome is the only true church of god , unless he can prove none are believers but they . so that this very definition of the lateran council is sufficient to overthrow the main drift of h. t. in this book , and to shew how heedless or impudent a writer he is . h. t. tells us also that the fourth lateran council defin'd in the profession of faith , can . . that the true body and blood of christ is in the sacrament of the altar under the forms of bread and wine , the bread being transubstantiated by the divine power into the body , and the wine into the blood . which is granted , if it be true , that the council it self did define any thing , and not pope innocent himself three years after the council . platina saith in his life , that many things then came into consultation indeed , and yet not any thing could be openly decreed . but were it the council or the pope alone that thus decreed , it was a most bold and presumptuous act in either or both to make that a point of faith , of which , as bellarm. tom . . cont . l. , c. . confesseth . scotus in quartum sent . dist . . q. . said , that the tenent of transubstantiation was no tenet of faith before the lateran council , and scotus and cameracensis expresly say , that neither by words of scripture , nor by the creeds , nor sayings of the ancients are we compelled to the tenet of transubstantiation . and cardinal cairt . in . aq. q. . art . . saith , that nothing out of the gospel doth appear to compel us to understand these words [ this is my body ] properly . to the same purpose john fisher bishop of rochester , contra . capt . babylon c. . for which reason cuthbert tonstal l. . of the eucharist , p. . said , perhaps it had been better to have left every curious man to his conjecture , concerning the manner of christs body being in the eucharist , as before the lateran council it was left at liberty , and therefore he was ost heard to say , if he had been present at the lateran council , he would have endeavoured to perswade pope innocent to have forborn the decreeing of transubstantiation as an article of faith . and indeed the reason of the council is so grosly absurd , that had there been any understanding men at the making of the decree , it 's likely it had not passed . for this reason they give of their decree , that to perfect the mystery of unity we our selves may take of his what he received of ours , the bread being transubstantiate into the body , the wine into blood by the divine power , intimates , . that the bread is transubstantiate into the body and wine into the blood , not either into body and blood , and then he that drinks not the wine drinks not the blood , nor is it said to be transubstantiate into it as an animate body , so that that determination makes it a transubstantiation without life . . it faith that we may receive of his what he receives of ours ; which in plain sense intimates , that christ receives our body and blood by eating and drinking , as we do his . . it makes this the mystery of our unity , as if the mystery of our unity by faith were not perfect without this gross capernaitish cannibalitish eating christs very flesh made from bread by a priest , and drinking his very blood with our mouth , in drinking transubstantiate wine . all which are such gross , irrational , unchristian absurdities , as had not the age been blockish , and popes and popish writers and people dementate , they would with abhorrency have rejected that determination . h. t. adds , that the fourth lateran council , can . . defined in the profession of faith , that no man can make this sacrament , but a priest rightly ordained by the keys of the church given to the apostles and their successors : which although it be otherwise in the text , matth. . . expresseth , wherein the keys , not of the church but of the kingdom of heaven , are mentioned as given to peter , not to the apostles and their successors ; yet were it true that the keys were given to the apostles and their successors , this would overthrow the popes supremacy if it be deduced from that gift of the keys . for if christ himself gave the keys of the church to the apostles and their successors , then not to peter only and his successors , but to other apostles and their successors as well as peter , and consequently according to their own principles to other bishops as well as the bishop of rome . as for the definition of the council , that none can make this sacrament but a priest , then it is to priests only that it is said [ do this ] ( for from those words he deduceth , p. . the power to make christs body ) but that is most absurd , for then they only should eat , the doing this being meant plainly of eating the bread , being spoken not to the priest conficient only , but to all the apostles at table also , and if so , not only the cup should be kept from the people , but the bread also , contrary to cor. . , . & . . h. t. tells us that they defined that baptism profits little ones as well as those who are of riper years unto salvation , and condemned the heresie of abbas joachim , which is nothing against the common tenet of the protestants , though it be suspected , that if abbat joachim had not been a man , whose reputed holiness and free speeches against the popes and the clergy troubled them , he might have escaped that censure the definition concerning confession and receiving at easter are points of disciplin , not part of the profession of faith , and so impertinent to the present business . h. t. mentions also the council of lyons ( fathers one hundred ) pope gregory the tenth presiding , anno . against the grecians , which is nothing against the common tenet of the protestants , and that which is added , this hitherto ( saith the council ) the holy roman church ( the mother and mistris of all churches ) hath preach'd and taught , ( besides the non-sense how frequently soever it be used of the churches preaching and teaching , who preach not nor teach , but they are preached to and taught ) it is but a piece of palpably false flattery , the church of rome being not the mother of all churches , it being certain , that the church of jerusalem was before that of rome , and the jerusalem from above is stiled the mother of us all , gal. . . among his catholick professors of this age h. t. nominates st. dominick and st. francis , institutors of their holy orders of friers , but how they should be saints , whereof one was a bloody instigator of war against the innocent sheep of christ the waldenses , and the other an observer of humane inventions , with neglect of gods command to work with his hands the thing that was good , that he might have to give to him that needs , and how they should be called a holy order , who were like to the institutors , but never appointed by god , i understand not . many learned men in those daies demonstrated them to be no holy orders , but a company of men that promoted the popes usurpations and injuries , to the great mischief of the commonwealths and churches of christians . of the nations converted , the emperour cassanes , with innumerable tartarians were not converted by the church of rome , nor owned the popes supremacy or faith , and therefore are no witnesses for the papacy . in the fourteenth age ten popes are set down , of whom most ●●te at avignon in france , and so could not be pastors of the church of rome : one is clement the fifth , who chained francis dandalus the venetian ambassador under his table to feed with dogs , and lost at the pomp of his coronation out of his mitre a carbuncle valued at six thousand ●●orens . another , john the twenty one , by others john the twenty second , whom bellarmin . de pontifice rom. l. . c. . confesseth to have thought that the souls should not see god till after the resurrection , though he adds a cold excuse , as if he might so think then without danger of heresie , because no definition of the church proceded : which is not true if he say rightly himself , l. . de eccl . triumph . c. . that the same , that is , that the souls see god afore the resurrection , teacheth innocent the third ( who was one hundred years before john the twenty one , by h. t. his account ) c. apostolicam , extra , de presbytero non baptizat● . however , if there were no definition , it proves a pope may teach heresie , sith john the twenty second did earnestly press this on the parisians , that they should believe as he did . of the rest their unpeaceableness in their contention with the emperor and among themselves in their schisms , in which one pope was set up against another ; divers popes at the same time , one owned by one , another by another , makes the succession so uncertain , that even the romanists disagree in the succession , some putting in clement the seventh in this age , whom h. t. leaves out , some standing for one , some for others as the right popes . besides their cruelty and covetousness , p●ove them rather butchers than pastors of the church of christ . h. t. adds one general council of vienna ( fathers three hundred ) pope clement the fifth presiding , anno domini . in which he tells us , the council defined baptism to be necessary for infants , condemned the begards and beguines , who held carnal lust done out of temptation to be no sin , and that we ought not to shew reverence at the elevation of the body of christ , which last alone is against protestants in common . but the council whether provincial or general , being swayed by a proud prelate , clement the fifth , it s no marvel it should make such decrees as then were made . as for the catholick professors , there is scarce a man of any note , but iro a canonist , whose profession will be of little weight with considerate men . that an emperour of russia , if made a christian , did embrace the romish religion , and submit to the pope , is not likely . the rest of the nations converted , h. t. proves not to have been converted from rome , or to have held communion with the pope , if they did , it avails little to prove h. t. his minor , that such rude people did so . sect . xii . the defect of h. t. his catalogue in the fiftenth and sixteenth ages is shewed . in the fifteenth age he reckons up thirteen popes as chief pastours , in which number he leaves out benedict the thirteenth , though reckoned by others , who with gregory the twelfth upheld a schism of three popes together , till they with john . or . for divers intolerable villanies were deposed , as eugenius the fourth was after at the council of basil : of the rest scarce any of worth besides pius the second , whose writings remain under the name of aeneas sylvius , and the last is alexander the sixth , roderique borgia , who with his son caesar borgia were so infamous for poysonings , covetousness and uncleanness of body , that rome , though the sink of wickedness , yet yielded few or none worse in any age. h. t. tells us of two general councils , , that of constance , anno . against john wickliff , john hus , and hierom of prague , pope john the two and twentieth , and martin the fifth presiding : but the main end of its calling by sigismund the emperour , was the composing of the troubles by three popes together , whom it deposed , and decreed the council to be above the pope , which is against the now roman faith . it is true also , that they condemned sundry articles of john wickliff , john hus , and hierom of prague , whereof some were most falsely ascribed to them , as the works of john wickliff and other testimonies do shew . and notwithstanding the safe conduct given by sigismund the emperour , to the perpetual infamy of the popish party , they judged he was to deliver john hus to be burned , sess . . whereupon the emperours solemn faith was broken , and thereupon they were burned , and wickliffs bones , as they imagined , forty years after his death were digged up and burned in england , and a most impious decree made , that , notwithstanding christ 's institution and administring in both kindes , and in the primitive church it were received by the faithfull in both kindes , yet the custom was confirmed of receiving in one , and the requiring it in both judged an errour , and it was forbidden to be given the people in both kindes , sess . . the other council h. t. mentions is the council of florence , ( fathers . ) pope eugenius presiding , anno . against many heresies ; which defined pugatory , the popes headship , transubstantiation , the apocryphal books canonical , the grecians , jacobites , armenians , and patriarch of constantinople subscribing this council , and being reconciled to the church of rome . but this council however it hath a shew of great authority , by reason of the presence of the patriarch of constantinople , and some other of the eastern christian churches , yet indeed it was of no authority , it being gotten together by a factio● in opposition to the council of basil , which was decreed by pope martin the fifth , to be ten years after the council of constance : and the end of it was to divert the fathers of the council of basil from deposing eugenius the fourth from his popedom , which nevertheless they did for his ill government , and chose amadeus duke of savoy , who was named felix the fifth , who is omitted therefore by h. t. though by others counted the lawfull pope : but h. t. thought it best to omit him and the council of basil , which together with the council of constance had determined that a general council was above the pope , and were not bound to obey him , but might depose him , as the french churches yet to this day do hold , so that they who are termed catholicks , and owned as children of the church , yet do not profess the now - roman faith of the popes supremacy , which h t. and the jesuited party among papists the popes flatterers ascribe to him . as for the presence of the greeks in the council of florence it was of a few needy ones driven out or brought low by the turks , who yielded to that in the council for some relief to them in their low estate , which the greek churches after would not own , nor do yet to this day . and therefore that which h. t. hath done in setting down the popes and councils of this age is done deceitfully , concealing the true state of things , and so he hath done of catholick professors , mentioning some of small worth , but leaving out gerson , picus mirandulanus , and some others , though in communion with the roman church , and men of more abilities and repute than many of those he sets down , because gerson held that the church might be without a pope , in his book de auferibilitate papae ; and he and others differ'd in some other points from the now roman tenets . as for the nations converted , which he mentions , they are names of people said to be in africa ; but whether there be such people , or are converted , or what numbers of them have been converted is known onely by the vain-glorious writings of some popish writers of that sort , who for the extolling of the papacy , either feign that which is not , or it is likely make a mountain of a mole-hill , such conversions as they boast of being not known to other people , though sailing into , and trading in all parts of the known world . h. t. adds his catalogue of chief pastors in the sixteenth age and half the seventeenth to . and sets down two and twenty popes as chief pastors of the church . of them are julius the second a warriour ; leo the tenth , who to maintain his luxury , and for his sister magdalen's dowry , set indulgences to sale , himself venting his infidelity to cardinal bembus , as if he counted the gospel a profitable fable ; paul the third an incestuous father of a sodomitical son , whom he cocker'd , full of cruelty and craft , sending an army with farnesius to destroy the protestants in germany ; julius the third that created his ganymede innocentius a boy cardinal , and had for his nuntio at venice john casa arch-bishop of benevent , who in a book praised sodomy ; paul the fourth hated by the romans for his cruelty ; pius the fourth that made the new creed of the roman church ; pius the fifth that excommunicated queen elizabeth ; gregory the thirteenth that set up stukely to get ireland for his base son ; sixtus the fifth that animated the spaniard in the expedition against england , . praised james clement the frier , who murdered henry the third king of france ; gregory the fourteenth who cursed henry the fourth of france ; clement the eighth , who afore he absolved him , proudly lasheth his embassadour with a rod ; paul the fifth who had the title of vicedeus given him , and not disclaimed , who interdicted the venetians for not obeying his monitory to revoke their laws about ecclesiasticks , and to release two ecclesiastick prisoners , one a poysoner , another that committed uncleanness in a temple , and did forbid the taking the oath of allegeance in england by papists , without doing any thing against some of the priests privy to the gunpowder treason , to shew their detestation of it . among them all there is not one that their own stories do relate to have been a diligent preacher of the gospel , but politicians , medling with the affairs of the kingdoms and empires of the world , and so no successors to our lord christ , or peter the apostle ; but their memories are to be abhorred specially by us english as the pests of mankinde . h. t. mentions two general councils the last lateran council pope julius the second and leo the tenth presiding , . i finde not the certain number of fathers , it was a general council . but bellarmine lib. . de concil . auth . cap. . saith , some doubt whether it were truly general : and there was reason , sith it was called by a faction adhering to julius the second to establish his tyranny in opposition to another party gathered in france to establish the pragmatick sanction . but what did this council define ? the soul of man immortal , and that there be as many humane souls as bodies , anathematizing all such as obstinately defend or hold the contrary in the communion of the church of rome , sess . a point which a council of philosophers might have decided . however it intimates there were that did then hold or teach the contrary in the communion of the church of rome , and that pope john the two and twentieth his doctrine was not quite extinguished : but this council is of little account among a great party of the papists themselves ▪ it is the other council the council of trent pope paul the third and pius the fourth presiding against martin luther and his fellow protestants , anno . of which he saith , the definitions are conformable to those of all precedent general councils for us , and against sectaries , as our adversaries know , and cannot deny . but this is most false , it being by bishop jewel , and many other learned protestants averred and proved , that the decrees of that council in many points about the popes power , half communion , transubstantiation , worshiping images , and other points are contrary to the councils and fathers for the first five hundred years at least . and for this council not onely sleidan , but also frier paul , a man greatly honoured by the venetian senate for his learning , prudence , and integrity in his history of the trent council hath shewed , that it was nothing but a meer packed and fraudulent conventicle of a crue of prelates , most of them italians , some meerly titular , and the popes pensioners and parasites , few of them who had any knowledge in the scripture or divinity , but canonists , courtiers , and school-men , who understood not the protestants doctrine in the great point of justification by faith , carried on by paul the third , julius the third , pius the fourth , and their legates to cheat the world by innumerable artifices , not onely hindring the freedom of speech of the protestants in the council , but also of some of the popish bishops , when they endeavoured to recover the right of bishops taken away from them by the popes , in so much that not onely the protestants have protested against it , but also the french kings , by their embassadours and parliaments , and it is not owned by the french popish churches unto this day , and the vanity and impiety of its decrees hath been detected by kemnitius , calvin , and innumerable learned protestants , besides what may be gathered from the contrary writings of persons , who were there , as catharinus , soto , vega , and others ; in so much that if men were not blinded with prejudice and faction they would easily discern that council to have been a corrupt synod justly to be detested . as for the catholick professours he mentions , their profession adds but little credit to their cause . for what advantage is it to prove the truth of the roman tridentin doctrine that it was professed by catharina a woman , or ignatius loyola a lame souldier , the hypocritical deviser of the order of jesuits , the incendiaries of the christian states , and corrupters of christian nobility and people by their abominable devices in resolving cases of conscience sutably to the lusts of men rather than the will of god , ( as is shewed in the late book of the mystery of jesuitism ) or by edmund campian a bold talkative calumniator , and a traiterous zelot for the popes tyranny , or by william allen an english fugitive , who wrote seditious books to apologize for stanley's treachery , and to provoke queen elizabeth's subjects to rebellion against so good a prince ? and for the great multitudes converted in italy , spain , germany , india , japonia , china , by priests and religious of the roman church , and likewise some considerable persons of the english nation , even in the heat of persecution , they are short of that which was undertaken of the conversion of nations . the conversions in the west indies have been by horrid cruelties of the spaniards depopulating many countreys , in which were millions of people , to get their treasure , not to the faith of christ , but to the roman yoak and superstitions against their will , which hath made christian religion-odious , and the name of god to be blasphemed . those of china and japonia are fictions , or so obscure , as that they are not considerable . the conversions in spain , france , germany , polonia , have been by fire and faggot , the bloody inquisition , persecutions , massacres , and such like arguments fetcht from hell. the hot persecution of papists here in england is , as all know that know england , a meer fiction : some mulcts and restraints have been put on popish persons , but none put to death meerly for being papists , but for that which the law made treason , being forced to it by their incessant traiterous practices , and yet these also are executed sparingly . the conversions to popery in england have been by various artifices upon various inducements , whereof none of them is evidence from the canonical scripture of the truth of popish doctrine ( they dare not stick to it without help of unwritten tradition , and the popes or his councils explication , which they must receive , though contrary to the exposition of their own most learned and judicious writers in their commentaries ) but the devices which they use are calumniating protestant writers , mis-representing their doctrine , forging writings of the ancients , purging out of them such passages as make against them , which do take effect by the levity of some , prejudice , discontent , or some such like ill affection of others . and though campian after his vain-glorious manner boasted of turning ten thousand in one year to the popish party , and the popish priests do boast of their success , as when musket was reported to have converted dr. king bishop of london , and weston reported to the earl of warwick unknown his conversion to popery , when the earl knew it to be false , yet as upon trial there was little cause for campian's glorying , and the reports of musket's and fisher's success heretofore ; so i hope , however in the time of the wars they have mudded the waters in england and intangled some in their nets , the waters being settled they will be less able to deceive , and souls which are now caught by them will by gods blessing escape them . however there is great cause to say , that those who are caught by popish priests and joyn to the church of rome , as now it is , are for want of receiving the love of the truth , that they might be saved , given over to believe lyes , and are in danger to be damned , as the apostle foretold , thess . . , , . what he adds of multitudes of provincial councils omitted , all esta●lishing the roman tenets over the whole world , it is because they are no where to be found , but the emptiness of this his catalogue is a sure eviction that there is not consent of nations or ages on behalf of the papists . sect . xiii . in which the close of h. t. is retorted . and for his close i thus retort it . now let any rational and disinteressed man be judge whether the fathers of the first councils for five or six hundred years were true protestants or roman catholicks ( that is , whether they have taught and defined protestant or roman catholick doctrines ) and doubtless when he hath well read their writings he will say , not roman catholiks , but true protestants , and so by consequence all ages , and countreys which have received and approved them for orthodox , by humbly submitting to their decrees , to wit , all ages since christ's time , who with his holy apostles and the orthodox fathers and councils for many hundred years taught doctrine contrary the now roman tridentin faith . therefore let no papist or sectary , such as h. t. is , ( who like as the donatists excluded all from the church , who were not of donatus his party ; so he ●xcludes all from the church of god , who are not of the bishop of rome's party , and thereby shews himself a schismatick divided from the catholick church ) delude himself and his ignorant and credulous followers , with a pretence to council , seeing there is no one to be found for them ( speaking of general and oecumenical councils for the first five or six hundred years which were the best ) which hath defined and taught their positive doctrines , but all have more or less condemned all or some of them , according to the occasions then emergent , and in particular that which dr. john rainold in his conference with hart , cap. . divis . . said stands yet good , that all christian churches , except the crue of the italian faction , have and do condemn the popes usurped sovereignty over the whole church of christ , and that no council did give him that visible mo●archy be now usurps , and the jesuited party now ascribe to him till the last lateran council under pope leo the tenth , . after which it was opposed by the university of paris and the french church , and even in the trent council there was a party which strugled against it in right of bishops , though they were overborn by the romish devices , and the multitude of italians . even at this day the jesuits have not brought all the papists under the popes girdle : which makes the pope cautelous how he determins controversies among his own party , least the condemned party appeal from him to a council , and the oppressed kingdom set up a patriarch of its own . so that i may say it is an impossible task for this scribler h. t. or any of his party to make a true catalogue of chief pastors or councils , or approved doctors in all ages for the popes supremacy , transubstantiation , communion under one kind , worshiping of images , invocation and worshiping of deceased saints and their reliques ; but a better catalogue may be made of more godly persons ( with whom their popes for this one thousand years are not to be compared , their own writers being judges ) who have opposed these doctrins of the now romanists , as hath been shewed by many learned men to the eternal confusion of popish novelties , then this author hath here , or any popish writer elsewhere hath made , to prove a succession of pastors , councils , professors and nations avouching the present roman opinions , which were never so avouched or enjoyned as now they are in pope pius the fourth his new creed , till about one hundred years ago . and to this insolent demand , where was your church before luther ? protestants may reply to papists , where was your church which believed , as you now do , before boniface the third , gregory the seventh , innocent the third , and leo the tenth ? the speeches of the fathers for the churches continued succession , do none of them prove the major of h. t. his syllogism , that is the only true church of god , which has had a continued succession from christ and his apostles to this time , meaning it of local personal succession , of which h. t. means it , but only of succession in holding the same doctrin . nor do any of them prove h. t. his minor , that the church now in communion with the see of rome and no other , has had a continued succession from christ and his apostles to this time , for they were all dead above a thousand years afore this time . all that can be proved , is that in case of heresies or schisms they made use of the succession in the roman church , ( which was then less tainted then some others ) to repress them , yet so as that they alleged a succession in other churches as well as it , but none ever , as this author , held it necessary , that all churches should own the bishop of romes supremacy , or the roman churches communion how corrupt soever they should prove : only while they continued uncorrupt in the faith they held communion with them , and so should we , if they would embrace the primitive purity of doctrine and worship , which peter and paul and other apostles first taught in the churches of christ , of which that at rome , though not the first , yet was one of the most famous , and till their declining of great esteem . sect . xiv . h. t. hath not solved the protestants objection . h. t. takes upon him to solve objections against the churches continued succession , and saith thus . obj. elias complained that he was left alone , king. . therefore the church then failed . answ . he spake figuratively , for god himself told him in the same chapter , ver . . that he had seven thousand at that time in israel ( where he was ) who had not howed their knees to baal : and in the kingdom of juda there was then publick profession of the true religion in hierusalem , paralip . . , . so that consequence is false . to which i reply , this author shews himself deceitful in setting down our tenet and argument , and slighty in his answer . for the tenet of the protestants is not , that the church hath failed , and that there is no continued succession of men in the visible church , who have held forth the truth against popish innovations . but that sometimes they have been by persecution so obscured , as that however they have been discernable among themselves , yet not so to adversaries , and to others of their brethren at a farther distance ; nor perhaps have they been so conspicuous , as that a catalogue might be made of the succession of pastors and people in the same place in every age , but oft-times they have been so dispersed , as to be in one age or time in one country , and another time in another ; and that the monuments of their being and doctrine , have been in part lost and in part obscured by inundations of barbarous nations , persecutions of popes and popish princes , and their knowledge and profession hath been sometimes larger , sometimes less , and still misreported by adversaries . nevertheless , that is , though they have been in such obscurity , they have been true churches of christ ; and notwithstanding we cannot prove such a succession in any one city or country of pastors and people in every thing agreeing with us , yet we may be a true church as long as we hold the true faith once delivered to the saints , and now upon record in the holy scriptures , though we submit not to the pope as chief pastor , nor own the now roman doctrin in the articles required in the bull of pope pius the fourth to be professed over and above the ancient creeds . in a word this we assert , that the defect of a catalogue such as h. t. requires , and the obscurity of professors nullifies not the verity of the protestant churches . and this is proved by the objection thus . if there were a true church in israel in elias his days , which was so hidden as that elias knew them not , and so could make no catalogue of them ; then there may be a true church , whose professors may be so obscure , as that neither in the same , nor in after ages a catalogue of them can be assigned . but so it was ; as appears by elias his complaint , and gods answer , king. . , , . ergo , there may be a true church whose professors may be so obscure , as that neither in the same nor in after ages a catalogue of them can be assigned . now what doth he answer ? that elias spake figuratively , because god said there were seven thousand non-baalites left in israel , and that there was a church in ju●ah then , and therefore the consequence false . but to shew the slightiness of this shifter ( for i cannot term him rightly a respondent ) . he tells us not what figure he used , nor in what words , nor what sense the speech bears according to that figure , nor how it serves for his purpose to avoid the objection . i do not conceive what figure of speech he or any man can imagin in that speech [ i am left alone ] unless he meant ironically , i am left alone , that is not left alone , which were a frantick conceit , or an hyperbole , or a synecdoche of a part for the whole , one for many : but such an hyperbole or synecdoche would make the speech non-sense [ i , that is a few or many are left alone ] for this were non-sense and self contradicting , and contrary to the intent of the speech , [ i ] being in the first person and that doubled , [ few or many ] in the third : to say [ few or many are left alone ] when [ alone ] excludes few , many , any more then one : to say [ they seek my life , that is of few or many ] when [ my ] notes only him that spake , to wit elias , and no other : to say [ i have been jealous , that is a few or many have been jealous ] besides the citation , rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the occasion , end of the speech , and answer of god shew such an exposition would be the conceit of a man extreme shallow or impudent . and his reason is as ridiculous , god himself told elias in the same chapter , ver . . that he had seven thousand at that time in israel ( where he was ) therefore elias spake figuratively , when he complained he was left alone , kings . nay the contrary follows , that he did not speak figuratively , because god corrects him , and shews his mistake in saying he was left alone , that is , there were no more besides himself left . . but yet if it were granted that the speech is figurative , and the meaning as h. t. would have it , it no whit avoids our objection , that the church of god , though consisting of seven thousand , yet were so obs●ure that they appeared so few to elias , as that he took himself to be left alone . as for the other exception of the kingdom of juda , it takes not away the objection as the protestants frame it , but as h. t. frames it , it is not our objection ; and so though the consequence be false , yet it hurts not us , who gather not hence the failing of the church , but the obscurity of it , and that there may be a true church , which is so hidden , that it is not discerned at some times , no not by such an eminent prophet as elias ; and so though we cannot shew our church in every age before luther , yet there might be then , and we may be now a true church for all that . the next objection he brings is , that though arian heresie infected the whole world , ergo , &c. and answers , you mistake , the fury of that lasted not full fou● years , viz. from the council of ariminum to the death of constantine , and that only in the eastern churches , the western feeling little or nothing by it . st. augustin answers the donatists objecting the same ; that even the canonical scriptures have this custome , that the word seems to be addressed to all , when it reaches home only to some few , epist . . to which i reply , if the arian fury lasted but four years , and in the eastern churches only , yet it might have been more than one hundred , and then the succession had ceased , and the eastern churches then were so obscure , that a catalogue of professors could not be given , though there were doubtless then true churches in the east . but it is false which h. t. writes , that the western felt little or nothing by the arian fury , for in italy the arians prevailed so far , as to bring liberius bishop of rome to subscribe to the council of ariminum . nor do i know how the words of augustin yeild any thing in answer to the objection , that in the time of the arian prevalency the church was so obscured , that the whole world seemed to be arians ; therefore the churches succession may be so interrupted or obscured at least , as that a catalogue of it's pastors and professors at all times cannot be framed . for suppose the meaning of the speech should be , that the words concerning the number of arians seem to be addressed to all , when they reach home only to some few : yet , if the words shew the number so great , as that the other part of the church were obscured so as not to be discerned , they serve to prove there may be churches , which are so hidden as that a catalogue cannot be framed . but the objection is further pressed thus . object , st. hierom says , the whole world groan'd and admired to see it self become arian ( in his book against luciferius . ) to which h. t. saith . answ . if she wondred , she knew not when it was done , if she groaned , she approved it not being done , therefore the major part were still catholick . to which i reply , if h. t. did not presume he should meet with silly readers , he would not have thus frivolously inferred from those words which were delivered to shew the arians to be the greater part , that the major part was still catholick . for who knows not that the expression is rhetorical and the meaning this , that arians prevailed so much , that the whole world , that is all the churches of the east and west were so infected , that they were burdened with arians as a man that groans under a burden , and that on such a sudden , as that the accident was as it were a wonder ? now from such catachrestical metaphors to infer as if they were proper , that while the world was arian , it knew not it was done , or approved it not , is all one as to say , when they were arians they knew not , nor liked arian doctrine ; that is while they were arians they were not arians , which is to make hieroms speech self-contradicting . but h. t. adds , let st. hierom answer for himself . the bishops ( saith he against luciferius ) that did the fact of ariminum were deluded ( viz. by the new creed there made , which might have born a good sense ) few defending the fact , and some lamenting it . and st. augustin tells us , that the church then appeared in her most constant members , athanasius and others , ep . . to which i reply , it is true , that when they came to see their error they did lament it , yet were for the time arians , and though athanasius did not yeild to subscribe to it , yet liberlus bishop of rome did . and i believe h. t. his fellow papists will not allow his speech , that the decree made at ariminum might have born a good sense . it is added by h. t. thus . obj. the church will fail in the time of antichrist according to that , unless there come a revolt first , &c. thes . . . answ . no , she will not ; she shall then suffer great persecution , apoc. . . and therefore shall be to suffer : many will revolt , all shall not . i reply , that if the revolt be of so many and the persecution so great , as that they shall be dispersed and obscured so as not to appear ; it is sufficient to prove the succession to be then either so interrupted as not to be , or so obscured as not to be discerned by enemies or brethren further off , and so as that the making a catalogue of pastors and professors in that age , cannot be expected justly from the churches in after ages , which is enough for our purpose to shew , that the defect of such a catalogue shews not the nullity of the protestant churches , nor is with any justice or reason such a catalogue of pastors and professors in all ages required of them by papists : yet , however this author conceives , his fellows the rhemists , annot. on thes . . . think the apostasie shall be so great , as that antichrist shall pull down generally all kind of religious worship , saving that which must be done to himself alone : nor is that , apoc. . . to the contrary . for neither is it certain that time is the time of antichrists reign , nor , if it were , doth it appear , that the thing done is afore the end of that reign . but h. t. adds . obj. what if men would not persevere ? how then ? you hold freewill , i hope . answ . with st. augustine to the donatists , as if the holy ghost were ignorant what would be the freewill of men , which yet foreseeing , he foretold that the church of christ should endure for ever . de unit . eccles . cap. . i reply , what protestant hath thus objected i know not . the possibility of the militant churches ceasing , is sufficiently proved by the holding of the acts of freewill to be undetermined , or undeterminable by god. nor doth the answer avoid it . for though , if the answer be good , the futurition of the churches failing follows not from the holding of free-will ; yet it shews not but that it may be , and perhaps it will be hard for him to avoid the objection , that if mans will be not determined by gods decree , which is meant by freewill among that sort of writers : then the holy ghost cannot foresee that the church militant will endure for ever , it being in reason impossible , that there should be certain foresight of that which is not certain to be afore that act of freewill in man which god himself cannot determine : a certain prescience of that which is purely contingent , may be or not be before it , notwithstanding any purpose in god , is according to all principles of reason impossible . if this author hold with many of the romanists mans freewill , not to be determined by gods decree and influx on the will of man , or the jesuits middle knowledge , he hath enough of papists to oppose him . i have sufficiently shewed the futility of his dispute in the first article of his manual , the second follows . artic . ii. protestants succession sufficient . protestants have that succession , which is sufficient to demonstrate them to be a true church of god. sect . i. protestant churches need not prove such a succession as papists demand . art . . h. t. thus disputes , the true church of god hath had a continued succession from christ to this time , and shall have from hence to the end of the world , as hath been proved . but the protestant church ( and so of all other sectaries ) hath not a continued succession from christ to this time . therefore the protestant church is not the true church of god. the minor ( which onely remains unproved ) is cleared by the concession of our most learned adversaries , who freely and unanimously confess , that before luther made his separation from the church of rome for nine hundred or a thousand years together the whole world was catholick , and in obedience to the pope of rome , there being no protestants any where to be found , or heard of . let therefore our enemies be our judges , calvin , hospinian , white , norton , bancroft , jewel , chamier , brochard , whitaker , bucer , perkins , bale , voyon , bibliander . answ . it hath not been proved , that every true church of god hath had a continued succession from christ to this time : many true churches have had no predecessors , and so no succession , the primitive churches certainly had not succession , there being none before them , they had not been primitive if there had been precedent , and sundry churches have been true churches , who have had none after them in the same place , when their candlestick hath been removed . and therefore it is most false , which he here vainly saith he hath proved , that the true church of god ( meaning every true church of god , without which his major is not universal , and so his syllogism naught ) hath had a continued succession ; ( meaning without interruption of persons , which may be named in the same place , professing the same faith with the now roman church in every point , which is his meaning and is onely for his purpose ) from christ to this time ▪ he hath not proved it , no not in the roman church , nor in those that are in communion with it under the pope . nor hath he proved at all that every true visible church on earth shall have such a continued succession from hence to the end of the world . the prophecies he alleged are shewed not to speak what he averres . and for his minor , though it is granted , that the protestant church under that name , as so termed , hath not been ancient , yet the protestant church in respect of that faith they hold hath been from the beginning , and hath continued as the church of god in persecution sometimes more , sometimes less pure , sometimes larger , sometimes smaller , sometimes more obscure , sometimes more conspicuous , sometimes in one place , sometimes in another , and in respect of their protestation against popish doctrines , the popes supremacy , transubstantiation , half-communion , propitiatory sacrifice of the mass , prayer in an unknown tongue , worship and invocation of saints , and other popish errours , it hath had churches and persons who have , as they have been urged on them , opposed them , sometime more , sometime fewer , sometimes in a more open , sometimes in a more secret way , as persecution permitted , and god stirred up their spirits . it is most false , that the most learned adversaries of the romanists do freely and unanimously confess , that before luther made his separation from the church of rome , for nine hundred or a thousand years together , the whole world was catholick , and in obedience to the pope of rome , there being no protestants any where to be found or heard of . sure the grecians were part of the world , and h. t. himself confesseth here pag. . there was a revolt of them from the roman church after seven or eight hundred years , and they were united again to the church of rome in the council of florence , sess . last , which himself saith , p. was in the year . so that by his own account their revolt was six hundred years at least , besides what is manifest of the arminians and others . and sure the hussites , wicklevists , waldenses , and those who went before them ( whom rainerius saith , some counted to have been from pope sylvester 's time , some from the apostles ) were a part of the whole world , and many protestants : illyricus , fox , white , with others , deny to have obeyed the pope of rome afore luther , and averre that they were , though not in name , yet in truth protestants in some at least of the chief points against the now popish doctrine . and therefore that which h. t. hath recited in this speech is manifest untruth . yea dr. richard field a learned man , in his appendix to his third book of the church , hath proved it notwithstanding brerely his wonderment , that the western churches afore luther were protestant , and the maintainers of the now roman faith onely a faction in it . and mr. perkins hath demonstrated in his demonstration of the probleme this position , no apostle , no holy father , no sound catholik for twelve hundred years after christ did ever hold or profess that doctrine of all the principles and grounds of religion , that is now taught by the church of rome , and authorized by the council of trent . nor do the speeches of the protestant writers amount to that which he produceth them for . he himself allegeth p. . out of augustin epist . . that even the canonical scriptures have this custome , that the word seems to be addressed to all , when it reaches home onely to some few , and thereby he would interpret the complaints that were made of the whole world becoming arian , when athanasius , and others were not . and he might have so interpreted the speeches he allegeth of hospinian and the rest . i have not all the books he citeth ; but some of their words i finde not as this author would have them . bishop jewel having said , pag. . and to be short , all the world this day crieth and groaneth after the gospel , adds , and all these things are come to pass at such time as to any mans reason it might seem impossible : when all the world , the people , priests , and princes were overwhelmed with ignorance : when all schools , priests , bishops , and kings of the world were sworn to him , that whatsoever he took in hand they would uphold it . which speeches are to be understood onely of the western empire , as when it is said luke . . a decree went out that all the world should be taxed , it is meant onely of the roman empire ; and when john . . the world is gone after him , it is meant by an hyperbole , of a great part , so the words of bishop jewel are to be understood as is usual in such rhetorical expressions , though the words are not as this authour sets them down , that the whole world , princes , priests , and people were bound by oath to the pope , jewel serm. on luke . in like manner when calvin saith , lib. . instit . c. . sect . . that the abominations of the mass presented to drink in a golden cup hath so made drunk all the kings and people of the earth , from the first to the last , he alluding to the words revel . . . is to be conceived , as in that scripture and many more , to be understood by an excess of speech a great part , in comparison of whom the rest are as if they were not . to the same purpose were the words of perkins exposition of the creed , vol. . pag. . col . . c. as the whole period recited shews , which is this , and during the space of nine hundred years from the time of boniface , the popish heresie , to wit , of the popes supremacy , spread it self over the whole earth , and the faithfull servants of god were but as an handfull of wheat in a mountain of chaff , which can scarce be discerned . the next words of dr. white himself in the same period shews his meaning to be of freedom wholly , and of appearing conspicuously , and to the world visibly to be seen by all , and separated from the rest . for thus it follows , and whether any company at all , known or unknown , were free from it wholly or not , i neither determine nor greatly care . nor do i question but that the same is the meaning of the rest , if their words were rightly cited , and the reader might perceive how they are wrested by h. t. against their meaning : and they wrote those expressions in like meaning with those passages of holy scripture which complain of corruption as universal , when the greatest or most conspicuous part are so , as psalm . . micah . . phil. . . sect . ii. the argument of h. t. to prove the nullity of the protestant churches for want of succession is turned against the roman church . h. t. further argues thus , without a continued number of bishops , priests , and laicks succeeding one another in the profession of the same faith from christ and his apostles to this time , a continued succession cannot be had . but protestants have no continued number of bishops , priests , and laicks , succeeding one another from christ and his apostles to this time in the profession of the same faith or tenets , the nine and thirty articles , or any other set number of tenets expresly holding and denying all the same points . therefore protestants have no continued succession from christ and his apostles to this time . the major is manifest , because it proceeds from the definition to the thing defined . the minor is proved , because protestants have never yet been able , nor ever will , to assign any such number of men whom they have succeeded in their nine and thirty articles , or luther in his augustan confession , when he revolted from the catholick church , no nor yet any one single diocese or biscop . answ . . this argument is thus justly retorted ; without a continued number of bishops , priests , and laicks , succeeding one another in the profession of the same faith from christ and his apostles to this time a continued succession cannot be had . but papists have no continued number of bishops , priests , and laicks , succeeding one another from christ and his apostles to this time in the profession of the same faith or tenets , the canons of the trent council , the articles in the bull of pope pius the fourth , or any other set number of tenets expresly holding and denying all the same points : therefore papists have no continued succession from christ and his apostles to this time . the major is manifest , because it proceeds from the definition to the thing defined . the minor is proved , because papists have never yet been able , nor ever will , to assign any such number of men , whom they have succeeded in their trent canons , and the articles of the creed injoyned to be professed and sworn to in the bull of pope pius the fourth . if any man pretend to such a catalogue , let him name none but such as held explicitely the doctrine of the tridentin canons , the roman catechism , the articles of the creed injoyned by pope pius the fourth his bull , all granting and denying the same points , that the late faction of romanists or italian popish sectaries granted and denied , or that our new reformers the jesuites deny and grant ; for if they differ from them in any one material point they cannot be esteemed catholiks . let him not name christ , john baptist , peter , paul , or any the apostles , or the roman church in their days . for they did not admit and embrace the now called apostolick ecclesiastick traditions unwritten , and other observances and constitutions of the roman church , nor held it the right of the roman church to define the true sense and interpretation of holy scripture to be received by all , nor truly and properly seven sacraments of the new law instituted by our lord jesus christ ; and necessary to the salvation of mankinde , nor allowed the received rites of the roman church used in solemn administration of all the sacraments , nor all the things which concerning original sin and justification were defined and declared in the council of trent , nor did acknowledge that in the mass is offered to god a true proper and propitiatory sacrifice for the quick and the dead : and that in the holy eucharist is truly , really , and substantially , the body and blood with the soul and divinity of our lord jesus christ ; and that there is made a conversion of the whole substance of the bread into his body , and of the whole substance of the wine into his blood , which conversion the roman church calleth transubstantiation , nor that under one kinde onely all and whole christ , and the true sacrament is received , nor that there is a purgatory , and the souls detained there are holp by the suffrages of the faithfull , nor that the saints reigning with christ are to be worshipped and prayed unto , nor their relicks to be worshipped , nor that the images of christ and the mother of god , always a virgin , and other saints are to be had and retained , and that to them honour and veneration is to be given , nor that the power of indulgences ( such as the pope grants ) was left by christ in the church , nor that the use thereof is most wholesome to christ's people , nor that the roman church is the holy catholick and apostolick church , nor the mother and mistress of all churches , nor that true obedience is to be vowed and sworn to the bishop of rome , nor that he is the successor of peter , nor that peter is the prince of the apostles , and vicar of jesus christ . neither let them name the popes councils or fathers for the first five hundred years , for they held not these points . papists pretence to the fathers of the first five hundred years is very idle , because were it true , as it is most false , that those fathers were papists , yet could not that suffice to prove them a continued succession of sixteen hundred years . secondly , because those of the sixth age must needs know better what was the religions and tenets of them who lived in the fifth age by whom they were instructed , and with whom they daily conversed , then our modern papists can now do , and they have not protested on their salvation that it was the very same with the now popish doctrine , nor that they received it from them by word of mouth , and so from age to age : and finally , because if our tenets in which we differ from papists , and are opposed by them , be taught and approved by the fathers of the first five hundred years , then it is wholly impossible they should be for papists and against us . but our doctrines ( in which we differ from papists , and are opposed by them ) are taught and approved by the fathers of the first five hundred years . therefore it is impossible that the fathers of the first five hundred years should be for papists and against us . the major is manifest of it self . the minor is proved . by what hath been already cited out of those fathers , as also by what shall be cited out of them in the following dispute . . by the ingenuous confessions of our adversaries . cardinal cusanus in his second book of catholick concord , cap. . saith , the pope is not the universal bishop , but the first above or among others . cardinal bessarion of the sacrament of the eucharist , we reade that these two onely sacraments were delivered plainly in the gospel . cardinal cajetan , tract . de indulg . cap. . there can be no certainty found touching the beginning of indulgences : there is no authority of the scripture , or ancient fathers , greek or latin , that brings it to our knowledge . durand . in lib. . sent . dist . . qu . of indulgences few things can be said of certainty , because the scripture speaks not expresly of them . cardinal fisher bishop of rochester , assert . luth. confes . art . . pag. . touching purgatory there was very little mention or none at all , among the ancient , as the greeks to this day believe it not : which words are cited by polyd. virgil. lib. . de invent . rerum , cap. . cardinal bellarmine , lib. . de just . cap . for the uncertainty of our own righteousness , and for avoiding of vain-glory it is most sure and safe to repose our whole confidence in the alone mercy and goodness of god. cardinal cajetan in . part . . th. qu. . art . . qu . the custome of the peoples receiving the wine endured long in the church . georg. cass in his defence of his book entituled [ de officio pii viri ] saith , the use of the blood of our lord together with his body in the ministring of this sacrament , is both of the institution of christ , and observed by the custome of the whole church for above a thousand years , and unto this day of the eastern churches . and although the use of one kinde came up about the year . yet the most learned of those times never taught that it was necessary so to be observed . tonstal bishop of durhom , de verit . corp . & sanguinis , p. . till the council of lateran it was free for all men to follow their own conjecture concerning the manner of christs presence in the eucharist . polydor virgil. de invent . rer . l. . . afore the index expurgatorius put them out , had these words , by the testimony of hierom it appears how in a manner all the ancient holy fathers condemned the worship of images for fear of idolatry . cassand . consult . tit . de imag . it is verily manifest out of augustin , writing on psal . . that in his age the use of images in churches was not . claudius espencaeus a bishop in tit. c. . many hundred years after the apostles by reason of the want of others , priests were married , greg. de val. tom . . disp . . punct . . sect . . with others confesseth , that in the most ancient times of the church , and after the apostles death priests had their wives . harding in his answer to jewel on the third article ; verily in the primitive church this was necessary , when the faith was in learning . and therefore the prayers were made then in a common known tongue to the people , for cause of their further instruction , who being of late converted to the faith , and of painims made christians had need in all things to be taught . john hart in his epistle to the reader before the conference with dr. rainold in the tower ; in truth i think , that although the spiritual power be more excellent than the temporal , yet they are both of god , neither doth the one depend of the other . whereupon i gather as a certain conclusion , that the opinion of them who hold the pope to be a temporal lord over kings and princes , is unreasonable and improbable altogether . for he hath not to meddle with them or theirs civilly , much less to depose them , or give away their kingdoms : that is no part of his commission . he hath in my judgement the fatherhood of the church , not a princehood of the world : christ himself taking no such title on him , nor giving it to peter or any other of his disciples . bishop jewels challenge and performance is known , bishop mortons catholick apology and appeal , besides many other books are extant ; by which it may be plainly discerned , that papists have not the fathers of the first five hundred years for them , and that even the learned writers of the popish party have vented so much in their writings , as yeilds an apology for protestants in all or many of the points in difference between protestants and papists . sect . iii. protestants have had a sufficient succession to aver their doctrin in the latin churches . but i shall add a direct answer to h. t. his argument . . by denying his syllogism to be right , as having these words added in the minor [ or tenets , &c. ] which were not in the major , whereby there is a fourth term , which makes a syllogism naught . . by denying his major , and as a reason of that denial i say , agreement of doctrin with christ and his apostles in the main points of faith and worship , though there be no bishops nor priests is sufficient to a true church ; and such succession as h. t. requires is not necessary . . to the minor , though protestants have not a continued number of bishops , priests and laicks succeeding one another from christ and his apostles to this time in the profession of the same faith or tenets , the thirty nine articles or any other set number of tenets expresly holding and denying all the same points ; yet they do agree with christ and his apostles in the doctrin of the christian faith , and the christian worship ; and there hath been a succession in all ages hitherto of christian professors holding the same points of faith in the fundamentals , although sometimes more purely and conspicuously than at other times ; and they have opposed , though not with the like success , agreement , or largeness in every age , the popish errors now avouched in pope pius the fourth his creed and the trent canons . and for answer to the proofs of the major : i deny , that the major proceeds from the definition to the thing defined , [ a continued number of bishops , pri●sts and laicks succeeding one another in the profession of the same faith from christ and his apostles to this time ] being not the definition of the continued succession necessary to the being of the true church of god ; as hath been proved before in the answer to the former article , sect , . . and to the proof of the minor : i answer , that protestants may have true succession from christ and his apostles , and may be esteemed christians and catholicks , though they differ in many material points , as long as they hold the same fundamental points , and protestants , opposing all or some of the chief points of popery as they arose and were discovered to them , though they did not discern all their errors , nor relinquish all their practises , or the communion of the churches subject to the bishop of romes rule ; but they were truely protestants , however otherwise named , while they did hold the same fundamental truths we hold , and opposed , as they appeared to them , all or some of the popish corrupt worship and errors , which the protestants now do . and for proof of this we rightly name the waldenses , hussites , wicklevists , albigenses , puritan waldenses , beringarians , grecians , of whom writers testifie they excepted against the popes supremacy , purgatory , half communion , transubstantiation , setting up and worship of images , propitiatory sacrifice of the masse for quick and dead , invocation and worship of angels and saints deceased , seven sacraments , with other errors of the now romanists ; and yet in the chief points of christian faith and worship did agree with the now protestants , as may be gathered from the confessions , and writings of their own , either extant or acknowledged in the histories and writings of their adversaries , such as were rainerius , aeneas sylvius , cochlaeus , and others . see samuel morlands history of the evangelical churches in piedmont the first book , by which their confessions and treatises are brought to light agreeing with protestants . what h. t. brings against this is either falsly ascribed to them by the calumnies of their adversaries , whose recitals of their opinions to the worst sense no man hath reason to believe , especially considering their works extant do refute them , and it hath been often complained of , that they have been misinterpreted and misreported ; or else , if true , is insufficient to invalidate our allegation of them . h. t. tells us the waldenses held the real presence , that the apostles were lay men , that all magistrates fell from their dignity by any mortal sin , that it is not lawful to swear in any case , &c. illiricus in catalog . waldens . confes . bohem. a. . and waldo an unlearned merchant of lyons lived but in the year . answ . sure he was not altogether unlearned , of whom it is said by some that have seen his doings yet remaining in old parchment monuments , that it appeareth he was both able to declare and to translate the books of scripture , also did collect the doctors minas upon the same . yet were he unlearned , sure he had store of companions among the romanists , friers , bishops and popes of those times , by one of whom a bishop was condemned as an heretick , for holding that there are antipodes ; and paul the second saith , platina pronounced them hereticks , who should from thence forth mention the name of the academy , either in earnest or in jest . the very decrees and epistles of the popes in their canon law shew , that few of them had any skill in the scriptures or the original languages competent to divines , and who so readeth their writings observingly , shall find that the ablest of their schoolmen in those dayes were very ignorant of the scripture sense and language . nor do i think the popes and generality of bishops and priests , and preachers among the romanists at this day are men of much learning in the holy scriptures . so that i presume waldus , as unlearned as he was , was comparable to the roman clergy at that time in learning , and for holiness of life , by the relation even of popish writers , exceeding them as much as gold exceeds lead , and therefore as likely to know the mind of god as any pope , or bishop , or frier at that time . now clear it is by an ancient manuscript alledged by the magdeburg . cent . . c. . that the waldenses held , that the scripture is the only rale in the articles of faith , fathers and councils no otherwise to be received then as they agree with the scriptures , that the scriptures are to be read by all sorts of men , that there are two sacraments of the church , that the lords supper is appointed by christ , and to be received by all sorts in both kinds , that masses were impious , and that it was a madness to say masses for the dead , purgatory to be a figment , the invocation and worship of dead saints to be idolatry , the roman church to be the whore of babylon , that the pope hath not the supremacy of all the churches of christ , marriage of priests to be lawful : with sundry more , which are agreeable to protestant tenets against papists : which is confirmed , because much to the same purpose aeneas sylvius in his bohemian history writes of their opinions . nor is it likely they held what they are said by h. t. to have held . for it appears by the dispute between them and one dr. austin , set down by mr. fox acts and monuments at the year . out of orthuinus de gratiis , that their opinion was , that christ is one and the same with his natural body in the sacrament , which he is at the right hand of his father : but not after the same existence of his body . for the existence of his body in heaven is personal and local : there to be apprehended by the faith and spirit of men . in the sacrament the existence of his body is not personal or local to be apprehended or received of our bodies , after a personal or corporal manner , but after a sacramental manner : that is , where our bodies receive the sign , and our spirit the thing signified . and illyric . cat . test . verit . tells us , that it is said to be their opinion , that the transubstantiation is not made in the hand of the conficient , but in the mouth of him that receives it worthily . and though he sets down the words of rainerius as they were , yet he conceives the things objected were calumnies . as for what is brought out of the b●hemian confession , anno it speaks of their tenet then , but not what those in gallia held in and about the time of waldus , who from him were termed waldenses . it is probable they might say the apostles were lay men not ordained , or tradesmen , as peter was a fisher , paul a tentmaker , not thereby derogating from the apostles function , when they were made apostles , but endeavouring to abate the arrogance of the bishops and priests , who appropriated to themselves the title of the clergy ( which peter , pet. . . gave to all the flock of christ ) and the power only to translate , read , expound and preach the scriptures , which the waldenses held to be free to all men . by magistrates falling from their dignity by mortal sin , its likely they meant ecclesiastical , whom they held god did suspend from the exercise of their function , when they lived wickedly , they being not to receive , and so not to consecrate , as i find it in , illyric . catal . or perhaps they meant it , that magistrates were not to be obeyed in their wicked commands , or ( as it is most probable they meant it ) it was just with god they should fall from their dignity ; and that he by his providence did so order it , not that men might depose them , as papists have taught , nor that ipso facto they cease to be magistrates . the same thing also h. t. saith of the wiclesians out of the council of constance , and imputes to them and to the hussites from the council of constance , that all things came to pass by fatal necessity , misunderstanding necessity of event by reason of gods decree for fatal stoick necessity , and that all the works of the predestinate are vertues , which arose from their doctrine , that they could not fall from the faith , as if thereby they must hold , that then they could not sin . that the waldenses held it not lawful to swear at all , is not so likely , as that they held the frequency of swearing unlawful , which is made the occasion of their denying swearing to be lawful , by rainerias himself in illyr . catal . or perhaps they rejected monkish vows and oaths of canonical obedience , and many other oaths imposed on men , together with swearing by the mass , cross , rod , on a book . but if they held all swearing unlawful , they held what sixtus sene●si● , lib. . biblioth . annot. . saith is conceived to have been held by many fathers . origen , athanasius , epiphanius , hilarius , ambrosius , chromatius , hieronimus , chrysostomus , theophylactus , oecumenius , euthymius , whom he excuseth and endeavours to acquit from error , and so do others the waldenses , wiclevists , &c. as birkbck in cent . . doth wicleff out of his latin exposition of the second commandment . that the hussites held mass , transubstantiation and seven sacraments with the now romanists , i find not in mr. fox , nor doth h. t. tell me where i may find it in him ; that the hussites or wicleff held all the works of the predestinate to be vertues , or that all things come to pass by fatal necessity ( meaning of a concatenation of two causes antecedent to gods decree , and binding him ) is no more to be believed , because the council of constance condemned them , then that wicleff held that god was to obey the devil , because it was so charged on him , from which his learned works yet remaining do free him . and it is found that the clamorous jesuits endeavor to fasten the like odious inferences on the doctrine of predestination taught by calvin and other protestants , which being rightly understood infers them not . what bernard saith , and roger hoveden of the albigenses , and rainerius of the catharists might be true of some of those that went under their name , as the gnosticks did of christians , and perhaps some ranters or quakers may do under the name of protestants . but the errors are contrary to the waldenses , wiclevists , hussites confessions and writings yet remaining , and rainerius his own words , that the waldenses or leonists did believe all things well of god , and all the articles which are contained in the creed , do acquit them : and they seem to be the errors of some remnant of the manichees . but perhaps bernard was mistaken in the charge on them , as he was in the accusation of petrus abailardus and others the tenets that the universal church ( meaning the catholick church which we believe in the creed ) consisteth only of the predestinate , that they cannot fall from the faith meaning totally or finally , are the opinions of many learned protestants , and therefore the hussites holding them , may notwithstanding those opinions be reckoned for protestants . nevertheless were it true , that the hussites and wiclevists and waldenses taught what h. t. saith of them , yet we might alledge them as witnesses against the now popish errors , which they then declared against , and a catalogue of protestant successors continued from the apostles in the naming them , rightly formed . sect . iv. the succession in the greek churches may be alleged for protestants , notwithstanding h. t. his exceptions . a catalogue of bishops , priests and laicks in the greek churches continued in the profession of the same faith with the protestants against popish errors is alleged by some learned protestants . against which h. t. excepts . . that they rejected the communion of the protestants , censur . eccles . orientalis . answ . this doth not prove they professed not the same faith with protestants against papists . for they might upon some differences , upon which perhaps they disagree with the romanists , reject the communion of the protestants , and yet profess with protestants the same faith , and oppose the same popish errors . . saith he , they were at least seven or eight hundred years in the communion of the roman church , as witness the first eight general councils all held in greece , and approved by the popes of rome . answ . to speak exactly , a general council is a black swan , there having never been any council so general , but that there have wanted messengers from many christian churches in the world . the four first councils of the bishops of the empire have gotten a great repute in the christian churches , and have been accounted as the four evangelists , though the canons extant even of the first nicene council have no such excellency in them , as to deserve so great an opinion . of the four later , surely the two last lesse deserve the name ; the later nicene council being affronted by the carolin council about images at frankford , and the eighth by another of the same place of better note , by michael the emperor and photius the learned parriarch of constantinople , who sure acknowledged not the popes monarchy , but lived and died in contest against them . but neither the four first , nor the four last did ever ascribe to the pope of rome the monarchy and supremacy , which are now arrogated , nor did they ever receive what they professed , because they professed it , nor doth the desire or acceptance , much lesse the having the popes approbation at all prove any authority over them in him , it being a thing usual to seek approbation of men , who have no authority over the seekers , by reason of their esteem for prudence , learning and other qualities , and for the more ready receipt of what they seek to have approved . but the councils determinations , and that with anathema to the gainsayers , shewed that they judged themselves to have decisive power without the pope , though his consent also were added as useful for some purposes . . saith h. t. the first revolt was made by the grecians denying the procession of the holy ghost from god the son , they were united again to the church of rome in the council of florence sess . last . answ . . the denying of the procession of the holy ghost from god the son , is shewed to be an error only in manner of speaking , by sir richard field of the church , third book , ch . . and other learned men . . the revolt so long shews the protestants had predecessors for many hundred years together in opposing the usurpations and errors of the roman popes and churches . . the reconciliation at florence was but an imperfect thing , by persons whose acts were not avowed afterwards , nor did the union hold , but was quickly dissolved . . the council of florence was a council not allowed by that at basil as being only of a faction to avoid the questioning of pope eugenius . see platina in vita eugenii . . . saith h. t. they held transubstantiation , seven sacraments , unbloody sacrifice , prayer to saints and for the dead , cens . eccles . orientalis , c. , , , , . answ . the grecians hold not any such transubstantiation as whereby the elements are abolished , and cease to be that they were , but whereby they become what they were not , and the transubstantiation they hold is a change of the communicants into the being of christ , that is partakers of the divine nature , as the apostle means when he saith they are the body of christ , as dr. field proves out of dam. scen , cyril and others in his third book of the church , ch . . bishop jewel reply to hardings answer , art . . nor are the speeches of transubstantiation , transelementation and such like terms , used by the greeks , any other than lofty hyperbolical speeches , such as the apostle useth when he saith , christ was crucified among the galatians , gal. . . which abound in chrysostome , pseudo , dionysius areopagita &c. insomuch , that chrysostom sometimes expresseth the presence of christ in the eucharist , as if it were sensible , the communicants touching christs body , seeing his blood , having their mouths made red by it , sucking his blood , receiving him into our house , with more of the like , as may be seen in chamier . panstr . cath . tom . . lib. . c. . as for seven sacraments , the greeks do not teach them to be so many , and no more , nor the unbloody sacrifice any otherwise , then by it to mean a commemoration of the sacrifice of christ , as chrysostom in his hom . on the tenth to the hebrew expresseth it . it cannot be proved that the greeks use such prayer to saints as the papists do , directing their prayers to them as hearers , and by vertue of their merits helpers to them that call on them . neither do they pray for the dead shut up in purgatory ( which as i alleged out of roffensis , the greeks do this day deny ) and there enduring punishment of sense , for deliverance thence , but commemorate the dead , even the most holy martyrs and confessors , and pray for their happy resurrection and acquittal in the last judgement . as for the egyptian christians and armenians , what they hold is not so easie to know by reason of their remoteness from europe , nor what succession they have had . but this is manifest enough , that they did never submit to the bishop of rome as their head , except what was done at florence ( for which michael paleologus the greek emperour was abhorred by the greeks , and denied burial , and isidor arch-bishop of kio●ia in russta deposed and put to death ) or by some obscure persons , whose acts the churches never owned , and yet there doth not appear sufficient reason to exclude them out of the catholick church , notwithstanding such errours as are imputed to them , nor to question their succession . nor is the protestants pretence to the fathers of the first five hundred years idle , ( it being not false , but most true , and so proved by jewel and others , and the answers of harding and other romanists proved insufficient ) that they were in the most material points protestants , that is held otherwise than the romanists now do . and though it prove not a succession of sixteen hundred years continued , yet it proves a succession of so long continuance as will make void the popish claim of succession as peculiar to them , and with any considerate person so far take place as to justifie the protestants opposition against the modern papist's errours and innovations . 't is true , those of the sixth age must needs know better what was the religions and tenets of them who lived in the fifth age by whom they were instructed , and with whom they daily conversed , than protestants can now do , in those things which they delivered by word of mouth to them , if they were heedfull , intelligent , and mindefull of what they heard . but what they left in writing we may know as well as they . and experience shews that oft times upon mistakes , and sometimes voluntarily the sayings of men spoken , yea sometimes their very writings , either by unskilfulness , or negligence , or fraud , are mis-reported , and therefore notwithstanding this reason of the acquaintance of those of the sixth age with those of the fifth , yet it may be that protestants may know the minde of the fathers in the fifth age as well as those that lived in the sixth . but that those of the sixth age have protested on their salvation that the doctrine taught by the fathers in the fifth age was the very same with their , in every point , or the doctrine now taught by the romanists was received from them by word of mouth , and so from age to age is not true ; yet if they should , we have no more cause to credit them , than the church had to believe the millenaries and quartodesimans , because of papias and others their report of john , with whom they conversed . sect . v. the romanists doctrine as it is now was not the doctrine of the fathers of the first five hundred years , nor is acknowledged to be so by the learned protestants . h. t adds a third argument to prove , that his with other romanists doctrines , ( in which they differ from protestants and are opposed by them ) are taught and approved by the fathers of the first five hundred years , which he thinks to prove by that he hath cited , and shall cite out of the fathers , and the confessions of his adversaries , and to that end cites some speeches of fulk , kemnitius , whitgrft , calvin , whitaker , peter martyr , duditius , rainolds , jewel : and then infers triumphantly , therefore the father of the first five hundred years are not for protestants , but for us ; therefore protestants are utterly at a loss in the point of continued succession . answ . . what is before cited hath been shewed to be insufficient , and so will what is after , if god vouchsafe me time and strength to that end . . of the passages cited , the two last are not to the purpose , and they are maimedly , and corruptly cited . the speeches , as they are cited , say not any thing of the popish doctrin taught and approved by the fathers of the first five hundred years , but the uncertainty of finding out the truth by their sayings without the scriptures . and that the dealing of this author may appear , i shall set down the words as i finde them in jewel's apology , part . . cap. . divis . . for where these men bid the holy scriptures away as dumb and fruitless , and procure us to come to god himself , who speaks in the church and in their councils , that is to say , to believe their fancies and opinions this way , finding out the truth is very uncertain , and exceeding dangerous , and in a manner a fantastical and mad way , and by no means allowed of the holy fathers . which speech is a most true and savoury speech , yet not in the least intimating a diffidence of the fathers of the first five hundred years being for the papists ( the contrary to which bishop jewel shewed in his famous challenge at paul's cross , and his making it good against harding ) but onely vindicating the holy scriptures from the foul speeches of hosius , pighius , and other romanists , and asserting the authority of the holy scriptures . the other passage which is cited out of dr. rainold's conference ( in h. t. it is printed confess . ) cap. . divis . . is as corruptly and maimedly cited , the words being thus at large , indeed vincentius lirinensis preferreth this mark ( of truth the consent of the fathers ) before the rest , as having held when they failed . nevertheless he speaketh not of it neither , as that it may serve for trial and decision of questions between us . for what doth he acknowlege to be a point approved , and such as we are bound to believe by this mark ? even that which the fathers all with one consent have held , written , taught , plainly , commonly , continually . and who can avouch of any point in question , that not one or two but all the fathers held it , nor onely held it , but also wrote it ; nor onely wrote it , but alotaught it ; not darkly , but plainly ; not seldom , but commonly ; not for a short season , but continually : which so great consent is partly so rare , and so hard to be found , partly so unsure , though it might be found , that himself ( to fashion it to some use and certainty ) is fain to limit and restrain it . which words were sound , and are necessary , but not spoken out of any distrust of his cause or imagination , as if the fathers of the first five hundred years were for the papists . for in that very conference he largely proves , that not onely the fathers of the first five hundred years , but also the succeeding councils and fathers till the sixteenth century , did onely yield the pope a primacy among other patriarchs , but not a supremacy over the whole church , and that primacy that was given him was by custome of the church for the honour of the imperial city ( which was auserible ) not because of any grant of christ , which was irrevocable . duditius was one whom by thranus his description of him , hist l. . towards the end , martyr's speech respects onely the point of vows , which is not a point of saith . whitaker's speech is not of the fathers of the first . years , but of the ancient church , which might be after , or onely in some part of that time . the words of calvin , lib . instit . cap. . parag . are not rightly alleged , being not together as h. t. cites them , but injuriously pieced out of speeches , that are distant one from another he doth not deny , nor yet expresly say , that it was a custome thirteen hundred years ago to pray for the dead : but whereas it was objected by the adversaries , he urgeth , that if it were so , it was without scripture , that it came out of carnal affection , that what we reade in the ancients done therein was yielded to the common manner and ignorance of the vulgar , he confesseth they were carried away into errour , but faith not , they were all of that time carried away into errour , that same testimonies of the ancients might be brought which overthrow all those prayers for the dead , that their prayers for the dead were not without hesitancy , that they were different from the popish in divers things . the words of whitgifts defense , pag. . are mis-cited , being not as h. t. cites them , all the bishops and learned writers of the greek and latin church too , for the most part , were spotted with the doctrines of free will , merit , invocation of saints , but thus , how greatly were almost all the bishops and learned writers of the greek church , yea and the latins also for the most part spotted with the doctrines of free-will , of merits , invocation of saints , and such like ? surely you are not able to reckon in any age since the apostles time any company of bishops that taught and held so sound and perfect doctrine in all points as the bishops of england do at this time . the words of kemnitius i finde not , perhaps because the edition is not named with the page . but this i finde in the third part of his examen , pag. . francos . edit . . that he not onely asserted , but also proved , that in the primitive church unto two hundred years after christ born , the doctrine of the suffrages , patronages , intercessions , merits , aid , help , and invocation of saints in heaven , was altogether unknown , and the reason or account of the veneration of saints was then far other , as we have shewed , than that which was brought in . i have not fulk's retentives against bristow's motives by me , which i imagine is the book which h. t. cites under the title of riot briston : but his citing with an &c. and so small a shred of the authour makes me conceive that he wronged fulk by that maimed citation , however sith the confession is but of three fathers , and the saints whether living or dead , and their invocation of what sort he meant being not expressed , it serves not the turn to prove his confession of the fathers of the first five hundred years , holding popish invocation of saints deceased . sect . vi. the answers of h. t. to the objections of protestants concerning their succession are shewed to be vain , and the apostacy of the roman church proved . after the rest of his scribling h. t. under the title of objection solved , saith thus , object . in all the ages before luther protestants had a church though it were invisible . answ . this is a meer mid-summer nights dream , that a church ( which is a congregation of visible men , preaching , baptizing , and converting nations ) should be extant for a thousand years , and yet be all this while invisible , neither to be seen or heard of in the world. i reply , who frames the objection as this authour sets it down i know not , sure i am that many of the protestants do frame it otherwise , that the protestants had churches afore luther , who did oppose popish innovations , and that these were visible , though not to their enemies , nor in so conspicuous a manner as the roman senate or common-wealth of venice , and this is no mid-summer nights dream any more than that papists have a church in england in communion with the see of rome , and that they have masses , baptizing , &c. although it be not known to protestants , nor so conspicuous as that we know where to go to them . and these churches have been seen and known in the world , partly separate from the roman church , partly continuing within the roman church , but yet opposing the p●pal usurpations and corruptions . as for h. t. his definition of a church , it is to me more like a mid-summer nights dream . for is the church a congregation of visible men preaching , baptizing , and converting nations ? are all the visible men in the congregation , which is the church , men preaching , baptizing , and converting nations ? may not a church be a congregation of men that convert not any nation if themselves be converted , that baptize not others if themselves be baptized , that preach not if they have heard , received and profess the word preached ? are not women part of the congregation , which is the church ? do they preach and baptize ? however it is well this authour sets down preaching and baptizing as acts whereby the men who are of the congregation , which is the church , are visible ; which is all one with the marks of the visible church given by the protestants , to wit , preaching the word and administring the sacraments . h. t. adds , object . the church in communion with the see of rome was the true church till she apostatized and fell from the faith . answ . if she were once the true church , she is and shall be so for ever ; she cannot fail , as hath been proved , nor erre in faith , as shall be proved hereafter . i reply . it is , true protestants yield that the churches in communion with the bishops of rome were true churches while they held the faith of christ entire , and did not by their innovations subvert it , which was in process of time done by altering of the rule of faith , the apostolical tradition of the holy scripture into unwritten tradition , the popes determinations and canons of councils as the sense of the scripture , or the revelations of the spirit of god , and by bringing in the invocation and worship of the virgin mary and other saints , altering the sacrament of the lords supper instituted for a commemoration of his death into a propitiatory sacrifice for quick and dead , asserting transubstantiation , and adoring of the bread , worshipping images and reliques , perverting the gospel by bringing in the doctrines of humane satisfactions for sin , power to fulfill the law , justification by works , and meriting eternal life , instead of free remission of sins to the penitent believer only through the blood of christ , and justification by faith in christ without the works of the law . in which points that the churches now in communion with the see of rome have apostatized , is apparent by this argument . those churches have apostatized , who have left the faith once delivered to the saints by the apostles of christ . but the churches now in communion with the see of rome , have left the faith once delivered to the saints by the apostles of christ : therefore the churches now in communion with the see of rome have apostatized . the major is evident from the terms , apostasie being no other thing than leaving the faith once delivered to the saints by the apostles of christ . the minor is manifest by comparing the doctrine of the council of trent , and pope pius the fourth his creed with the apostles writings , especially the epistle to the romans by paul , which shews what once the church of rome believed . for instance it is said , rom. . . for whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning , that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope . tim. . , , . and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures , which are able to make thee wise unto salvation , through faith which is in christ jesus . all scripture is given by inspiration of god , and is profitable for doctrine , for reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousness , that the man of god may be perfect throughly furnished unto all good works . eph. . . and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets , jesus christ himself being the chief corner-stone , which plainly prove the scriptures use for all sorts , sufficiency , and divinity , and the needlesness of unwritten traditions to guide us to salvation . rom. . . we being many are one body in christ , and every one members one of another . cor. . . for as the body is one and hath many members , and all the members of that one body being many are one body : so also is christ . ver. . for by one spirit we are all baptized into one body , whether we be jews or gentiles , whether we be bond or free , ver . . now ye are the body of christ and members in particular , ver . . and god hath set some in the church , first apostles , &c. ephes . . . and gave him to be head over all things to the church which is his body , which prove the catholick church to have extended to all believers of jews and gentiles , and that they ( and not the roman only , or those that are in communion with it ) are that one body or catholick church , and that there is no other head of the whole church but christ , nor any apostle above another ; and consequently the roman church and pope have no supremacy over the rest of the churches . rom. . how shall they call on him in whom they have not believed . tim. . . there is one god and one mediator between god and men , the man christ jesus , which prove they then received not the invocation of saints , nor made the virgin mary or any other deceased saint , mediators between god and men . cor. . , , , , , . after his blaming them for disorder about the lords supper , he saith thus , for i have received of the lord that which also i delivered unto you , that the lord jesus , the same night in which he was betrayed took bread : and when he had given thanks he brake it and said , take , eat , this is my body , which is broken for you : this do in remembrance of me . after the same manner also he took the cup when he had supped saying , this cup is the new testament in my blood : this do ye as oft as ye drink it in remembrance of me . for as oft as ye eat this bread and drink this cup ye do shew the lords death till he come . wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread , and drink this cup of the lord unworthily , shall be guilty of the body and blood of the lord. but let a man examine himself , and so let him eat of that bread , and drink of that cup. cor. . , . the cup of blessing which we bless , is it not the communion of the blood of christ ? the bread which we break , is it not the communion of the body of christ ? for we being many are one bread and one body : for we are all partakers of that one bread . which texts plainly shew , that what is eaten in the eucharist is bread , and therefore not flesh , and consequently no transubstantiation , that the actions are commemorate signs of christs death ; therefore no propitiatory sacrifice : that bread was to be broken and eaten , therefore not to be whole and swallowed down . heb. . . but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself . heb. . . by the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of jesus christ once for all , which shew there is no more sacrifice or offering of christ in the church of christ to be continued by a priest . rom. . . who changed the truth of god into a lye , and worshipped the creature besides , or more than the creator . thes . . . ye turned to god from idols to serve the living and the true god , therefore they worshipped not bread , nor crosses , nor reliques as papists do . rom. . . therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law . rom. . . but to him that worketh not , but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly , his faith is counted to him for righteousness . rom. . . therefore being justified by faith we have peace with god. rom. . . there is no condemnation to them that are in christ jesus . ver . , . for what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh , god sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh , and for sin , condemned sin in the flesh , that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us . ver . . for i reckon that the sufferings of this present time , are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us . rom. . . for the children being not yet born , neither having done any good or evil , that the purpose of god according to election might stand , not of works , but of him that calleth . . so then it is not in him that willeth , nor in him that runneth , but of god that sheweth mercy . rom. . , , , . for they being ignorant of gods righteousness , and going about to establish their own righteousness , have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of god. for christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth . for moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law , that the man which doth them shall live in them . for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness , and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation . rom. . . and if by grace , then is it no more of work , otherwise grace is no more grace : but if it be of work , then it is no more grace , otherwise work is no more work . cor. . . but of him are ye in christ jesus , who of god is made unto us wisdome , and righteousness , and sanctification , and redemption , cor. . . i know nothing by my self , yet am i not thereby justified . ver . . who maketh thee to differ from another ? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive ? now if thou didst receive it , why dost thou glory as if thou hadst not received it ? gal. . , , . knowing that a man is not justified by the law , but by the faith of jesus christ : we seek to be justified by christ . i do not frustrate the grace of god : for if righteousness come by the law , then christ is dead in vain : to which may be added , gal. . , , , , , . & . , . ephes . . , . phil. . , . tit. . , , . john . . which overthrow forgiveness of sins for our satisfaction , merit of glory by any saints works , righteousness by works and such other tenets as whereby papists extol man , and debase the grace of god , which will more fully appear by refuting the shifts of the romanists in the discussing of the following articles . as for what h. t. saith here , if the church in communion with the see of rome were once the true church , she is and shall be so for ever , if meant of the visible church militant ( of which alone is the question ) it must rest either on this proposition , every true visible church militant is and shall be a true church for ever , which is proved false by the instances of the hierosolymitan , antiochian , alexandrian , ephesian , corinthian and other churches . where there are not now churches of christ , but mahometans , at least by this authors own doctrine , they were not true churches while the greek churches revolted from the communion of the roman which he mentions , p. . and it is manifest by christs threatning , that he would remove the candlestick from them except they did repent , revel . . . or else it rests on this , that every church in communion with the see of rome is , and ever shall be a true church : but there is no priviledge in scripture to the church of rome more than to other churches , much less to every church that is in communion with the see of rome ; yea it is said to the roman church as well as other churches , rom. . , , . well , because of unbelief they were broken off , and thou standest by faith . be not high minded but fear . for if god spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also spare not thee . behold therefore the goodness and severity of god : on them which fell severity ; but towards thee goodness , if thou continue in his goodness , otherwise thou ( even the roman church to whom he then wrote ) also shalt be cut off . however if it be proved that the church catholick invisible of the elect and true believers cannot fail , and that a church visible indefinite shall not fail , but be in some place or other more or less conspicuous , in greater or smaller numbers ; yet it is not proved that the church militant definite of this or that place shall not fail , nor is there a word in scripture to prove this the priviledge of the roman church , or those that are in communion with the see of rome that they cannot fail nor erre in faith : nor do the words of fathers rightly understood prove it . but scripture and experience do plainly refute it . what hath been alleged is examined , the rest will be in its place . i proceed to that which remains in this article . object . the catholick succession was one succession for the first five centuries . answ . you may as well tell me of a white blackmore : a catholick is not a protestant , nor a catholick succession a protestant succession . who ever heard of a protestant pope ? the catholick church was always governed by a pope in the first five centuries , as now it is , and hath defined our tenets and condemned yours , as you have seen . it is the very essence of a protestant ( as a protestant ) to protest against the catholick church , as lutherans and you have done . to this i reply , to an objection of such moment as this is the answer , is but meer trifling . for he knows , that we mean by catholick succession , not that which he calls catholick succession , to wit of popes of rome , but that the teachers , who are reputed catholick , whether of the greek or latin churches , who have succeeded one after another in the five first centuries of years from christs incarnation according to the account now used , taught not the doctrine now professed in the bull of pope pius the fourth , or in the tridentin canons , but that in all or most of the points in difference between protestants and papists they taught the doctrine , which protestants now hold , which hath been proved by jewel and many other protestant writers . and in this sense it is no more absurdity to call a protestant a catholick , then to call a spade a sapde , a straw a straw . protestants are truely catholicks , papists are but falsly called catholicks affecting the name , as some that were of the synagogue of satan said they were jews , and were not , but did lye , revel . . . and impudently claiming that which they have no right to , that they may be it as a stalking horse catch ignorant people , who are taken with shews and confident talk , being unable to sift out truth and discern it from pretences . a catholick succession is in true construction a protestant succession , and the popes of rome it self protestant popes , teaching in such writings as remain not the now papal doctrine , but in the main the protestant , though by some of them excessively magnifying their see , and promoting rites of mens invention way was made for the after corruptions of the papacy . the term pope was in former times given to other bishops , presbyters , yea and deacons too besides the bishop of rome , though now the title is appropriated to him , who deserves not the name of papa or father , as it was heretofore used as an honourable title of the reverend and godly teachers and officers in the church of god , nor any other way i know , except it be in the sense in which an italian said of innocent the eighth , octo nocens pueros genuit totidemque puellas : hunc merito poteris dicere roma patrem : many of whose predecessors and successors have made it their work to advance their bastards , rather then beget children to god by preaching the gospel . it is a notorious falshood , that the catholick church was alwayes governed by a pope in the first five centuries , if he mean by pope a bishop of rome . it s manifest by many instances , that the african and asian churches were not governed by him in the second , third , fourth and fifth centuries , sith they did oppose him , as appears by the contentions between victor and polycrates and others . that which we have seen in h. t. or bellarmin or any other writer of the popish party , hath not yet made it so much as probable , that the catholick church hath now defined the now roman tenets , or condemned the protestants , nor is it of the essence of a protestant , as such , to protest against the catholick church , but against the errors and abominations of the now roman party . nor hath h. t. or any other proved , that the protestant teachers protest against manifest revealed verities , and the very fundamentals of the christian faith , however they do protest against the fundamentals of the new popish faith , the popes monarchy , transubstantiation , &c. h. t. adds , st. augustin , st. hierom and many others are divided in their opinions , whether linus or clement immediately succeeded peter . answ . be it so , yet they all agreed in this , that the succession was morally continued , to which it is a thing indifferent whether clement immediately succeeded him , as he well might being his scholar , or first linus , then cletus , and then clement , which is now the more common opinion of the church . i reply , what he means by [ morally continued ] i understand not , nor know i any sense of that speech , which serves to take away the force of the objection , which is , that if it be uncertain who succeeded peter immediately , then the tradition of the church unwritten , or not written in the bible is uncertain , and that too in a main point which is fundamental with the romanists , the succession of their chief pastors , upon which the truth of their church and the rule of their faith depends , and consequently the rule of the romanists whereby to know what we are to believe hath a meer sandy foundation , not being sufficient to build a divine and firm faith upon ; and the protestants are no more to be blamed than the romanists , if they do not so exactly set down and prove their succession of bishops as the papists require , sith the papists themselves are deficient in their own catalogue , and if the protestants can prove their faith out of scripture , though they prove not such a succession as is demanded , they may as well be concluded a true church as the roman , which answers the two first articles of h. t. his manual of controversies . besides the most ancient tradition they have , to wit irenaeus l. . adver . haeres . c. . saith that peter and paul founded the church in rome , and then delivered the episcopacy of the church to be administred to linus , which was done in their life time , and so linus did not succeed peter as bishop of rome , for he was bishop while peter lived , and so if peter died bishop of rome there were more bishops together , and irenaeus makes them successors of paul as well as peter ; nor were they successors to them as having the same office with them . for they could not be bishops of particular places fixed there as now the term is used , it stood not with their commission , which enjoyned them to go into all the world , and to preach the gospel to every creature , nor were they successors to them in their apostleship , for that particular office ceased with the first apostles . so that the truth is , this conceit of succession is but a vain conceit , though it be much magnified by h. t. and other romanists for want of solid proof of their several doctrins out of scripture or primitive antiquity . i go on to the next article . artic . iii. popish church visibility not necessary . such visibility of succession , as the romanists require , is not proved to be necessary to the being of a true church . sect . . exteriour consecration and ordination of ministers is not necessary to the being of a visible church : what h. t. requires of ministers preaching and administring sacraments is most defective in the roman church . our tenet , saith h. t. is , that the catholick and apostolick church of god hath had not onely a continued , but also a visible succession from christ to this time , &c. which we prove thus , . a society of men which hath always in it exteriour consecration and ordination of ministers , preaching , baptizing , and administring sacraments must of necessity be always visible . but the church of christ is a society of men which hath always in it exteriour consecration and ordination of ministere . therefore the church of christ must of necessity be always visible . the major is proved by evident reason , because those are all outward and sensible actions , which are inconsistent with an invisible society of actors . the minor is proved by scripture , go ye , teaching all nations , baptizing them , &c. and , behold , i am with you all days , &c. st. matth. . v. . he gave some apostles , some prophets , some evangelists , and other some pastors and doctors , to the consummation of the saints , ephes . . , . answ . the tenet and the conclusion of the argument differ , the tenet asserting what hath been , the conclusion what of necessity must be ; the tenet having for its subject the holy catholick and apostolick church of god , the conclusion the church of christ indefinite , and both tenet and conclusion is granted , but not in this author's and other romanists sense . it is granted , there hath been a succession , but not a continued number of bishops , priests , and laicks , succeeding one another in the profession of the same faith , ( meaning the now roman ) from christ and his apostles to this time , which h. t. in the former article makes the definition of succession . and visibility of each particular church is granted , but not of the catholick as catholick , which as such is to be believed , not seen . and this visibility it is granted to be of some at some times , not in the same splendor or conspicuity at all times , nor to all persons . but protestants deny it visible always to all in so glorious and conspicuous an estate , as bellarmine asserts , when he saith in his book de eccles . milit. cap. . that the church is an assembly of men so visible and palpable as is the assembly of the people of rome , or the kingdom of france , or the common-wealth of the venetians : so that we might grant his tenet and conclusion , were it not that fraudulently there is more intended than is expressed , which is needfull to be discovered . for answer to it as it is the major is granted , if it be understood of visibility simply , but if meant of such a conspicuous visibility as the romanists assert , it is to be denied . in the minor it is to be observed , . that a distinction is made between exterior consecration and ordination , which i judge to be done , that thereby may be implied the distinction of bishops ( who are consecrated , not ordained ) from presbyters , ( whom they ordain , not consecrate ) to have been always in the church of christ , which is not right . . that it is asserted that the church of christ is a society of men , which hath always in it exteriour consecration and ordination of ministers , which is , because he holds a true church hath always such ministers . but as i said before , that is not true , no not in the church of rome in the vacancy of the see , which hath been sometimes long , and therefore it is not necessary to the being of a true church , that always the exterior consecration and ordination be continued , and if it may be intermitted , one , two , or ten years , and yet the church a true church , it may be an hundred ; and therefore the minor is not to be granted , if meant of exterior consecration and ordination of bishops distinct from presbyters , and such a perpetuity as is without the least intermission , nor do any of the texts prove it . for the precept matth. . , . proves onely it ought to be , not that it shall be ; and the promise , if it do prove that a succession shall be , yet it doth not prove such a succession as shall have exterior consecration and ordination , but such assistance in preaching and baptizing as shall uphold and prosper them in that work : nor is this assured to any one place , but indefinitely to any persons in any place where this work shall be continued . and the other place ephes . , . proves not a certainty of the event , which is asserted in the minor , but if the gift be meant of institution of what ou●ht to be , it notes onely a certainty of duty , if of donation of abilities it notes not an exterior consecration and ordination , but an act to be immediately from christ himself , or by his spirit , and so doth not prove a futurity of such succession by outward consecration and ordination as h. t. brings it for . nevertheless this author doth disadvantage his own party by this arg●ing . for , . by this arguing he plainly makes the marks of the church by which it is visible , preaching , baptizing , and administring sacraments , which doth by good consequence infer that the protestants do rightly make the preaching of the word , and the administring of the sacraments the notes of the visible church ; which will make well for the protestants , by whom these are observed ; but ill for the ministers of the roman church , chiefly the bishops of rome , who neither preach , nor baptize , nor administer sacraments , but do other acts of other kindes . nor , to speak truth , is almost any of their preaching the preaching of the gospel , but the rites of the roman church , extolling the virgin mary , and other saints excellency , little of the gospel , or if any part of it , it is likely the history of the gospel in an historical fashion , little of the mystery ; but in stead thereof such doctrines of humane satisfactions , for sin , merit , of good works , are preached , as do overthrow the gospel . and for baptizing , though bellarmine tells us , lib. . de bonis oper . in partic . cap. . that at rome the old custome is not abolished of baptizing the catechumeni at easter , but among the papists chiefly in the city of rome there is no year in which many catechized persons are not baptized at easter : yet the truth is , there is no right baptism almost throughout the churches under the papacy , there being nothing but watering of infants with some frivolous ceremonies , no immersion or plunging into the water after profession of faith , as was in the primitive times , and is the onely baptism christ appointed , infant-sprinkling , perfusion , or dipping , being meer innovations begun after the apostles ages , and being onely by unwritten tradition ( as their own learned men confess ) conveyed to the church , not instituted by christ himself . and for administring the lords supper , he that reades their missals or sees , their mass , may easily discern , there is not that done by them which christ appointed , but such a change there is in it from christs institution , as that it cannot be termed ▪ a sacrament of christ , but a meer ridiculous or abominable device of men , more like a play than a religious service . . when they say that the church hath always exterior consecration and ordination of ministers , they necessarily put themselves upon it , to prove that it hath been so in the roman church , which they can never prove to have been always in the roman bishops , much less in their priests , the records of their consecrations and ordinations being in many respects either none or very doubtfull , at best but humane testimony which is fallible , and if these were certain , yet their own canons make many things necessary to their sacraments , specially that sottish conceit of the trent council , that the minister of sacraments must intend to do what the church doth , without which there is a nullity in what is done ; and yet it is impossible to be proved ; and so many things according to their canons nullifie their ordinations , as simony , and other irregularities , of which nevertheless their own writers accuse a great number of their bishops and priests , and sometimes one pope hath made void the acts of another , and in despite hath cut off his fingers which did ordain priests , as platina relates in the life of stephan the sixth concerning the usage of pope formosus ; besides this the ordination of their priests is to sacrifice for quick and dead , which is no part of the ministerial office which christ required , matth. . , . which being considered , if this be the note whereby the true church must be proved , no church in the world hath less proof for its truth than the roman ; but the exceptions will be so many against their exterior ordination and consecration , as will by their own canons and arguings prove the roman church to be no true visible church at all ; and so this argument will be retorted on h. t. let us go on to his second argument , onely taking notice that he useth the term [ ministers ] which other papists do deride in the protestants . sect . ii. isai . . matth. , . psal . . ( with us . ) . prove not such a church-visibility as h. t. asserts , nor the words of ireneus , origen , cyprian , chrysostom , augustin . a light , saith h. t. always shining to the world , and a city so seated on a hill that it cannot be hid , must needs be always visible . but the church of christ is a light always shining to the world , and a city so seated on a hill , that it cannot be hid , therefore the church must needs be always visible . the major is manifest by the very terms . the minor is proved by scripture ; the mountain of the house of our lord shall be prepared on the top of mountains , isai . . you are the light of the world , a city seated on a hill cannot be hid , st matth. . . he hath put his tabernacle ( his church ) in the sun , psal . . . answ . though the conclusion might be granted in some sense , yet in the sense meant by the romanists it is denied , and in the argument the minor is to be denied , and to the proof of it , it is denied that the texts produced prove it . not the first . for though the prophecies , is . . , . be meant of christ and the times of the messias , yet , whether by the mountain be meant mount sion properly , or the church , or christ , or the apostles ; it is certain , that it is meant of that time , wherein the gospel was at first preached , to which sense hierome expounds it , and the exaltation of the mountain of the lords house is in respect of the first promulging of the gospel , ( in respect of which , neither at first , nor now is rome exalted above the hills ) and therefore it is not meant of every particular church visible , nor of such conspicuity in government and outward appearance as the romanists maintain . the second text matth. . . is particularly meant of the apostles , and such preachers of the gospel as continued that work with them , or after them , and doth not foretell what shall be , but declares what they were in existence or duty rather , and their conspiracy is in respect of the preaching of the gospel . but this is not spoken of every particular , or the whole church militant at all times , as if it were so visible , as that every christian might know where to address themselves to them , and have resolution from them in their doubts . the other text is less to the purpose , speaking of a tabernacle for the sun , not a tabernacle in the sun , the suns tabernacle , not gods , put in the heavens , ( not on earth ) as hierom reades according to the hebrew , although the septuagint and vulgar reade , as h. t. and augustin in his allegorical way expound it of the church . but it is frivolous upon augustin's conceit in his enarration on the psalms to infer a tenet from a place that hath quite another grammatical sense , which is onely argumentative . as for the sayings of fathers , the words of irenaeus lib. . advers . hoeres . cap. . are not , that every true church of christ hath such a continued succession , and so visible , as that every christian may discern where to repair to it , but onely in opposition to heretical teachers tells us , god hath set other teachers in the church , than those he there opposeth . origen's words hom. . on matthew , shew what was in his time , not what must of necessity be , and are meant of brightness of doctrine or truth , not of outward glory in a conspicuous rule and state like some flourishing empire . cyprian's words de unit . eccles . are less to the purpose , being not concerning the visibility , but the unity of the church , but in neither for the romanists purpose . the words are thus , cut off the river from the fountain , and being cut off it will be dry ; so also the church cloathed with the light of the lord spreads its beams through the whole world , yet it is one light , which is every where diffused , and yet the unity of the body not separated . chrysostom's words hom. . on isai . are , that the church is more rooted than the heaven , and then adds , let the greeks learn the power of truth , how it is easier that the sun should be extinguished , than that the church should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is not as h. t. renders it be obscured , but vanish away , as the words following shew , which are , who had these things ? he that preacheth hath founded , the heaven and the earth shall pass away , but my words shall not pass away . whence it is manifest , that he there speaks not of the churches visibility , but permanency as the sun. augustin lib , . cont . parmen . cap. . tom . . against the donatists saith thus , who therefore would not sit in the assembly of van●●y , let him not become vain in the type of pride , seeking the conventicls separate from the unity of the just of the whole world , which he cannot finde . but the just are through the whole city , which cannot be hid , because it is seated on a mountain , that mountain i say of daniel , in whom that stone cut out without hands grew and filled the whole earth . and after , there is no security of unity but in the church , declared by the promises of god , which being seated , as was said , on a mountain , cannot be hid : and therefore it is necessary that it be known to all parts of the earth . by which it is manifest , that in opposition to the donatists , appropriating the church to their party , he asserts it to be manifest , not by its outward splendour , but its extension to all parts . the words l. . cont . petilian . c. are thus : ye are not in the mountains of sion , because ye are not in the city seated on the mountain , which hath this certain sign that it cannot be hid , therefore it is known to all nations , but the part of donatus is unknown to many nations ; therefore it is not that church . it is evident he spake of the church at that time , which was known or manifestly visible to all nations , not from a potent monarchy in one city , but its diffusion through all parts of the world . sect . iii. h. t. hath not solved the protestants objections against the visibility of the church . h. t. adds , objections solved . object . the church is believed , therefore not seen . answ . she is believed in the sense of her doctrines , and to be guided to all truths by the holy ghost , but seen in her pastours , government , and preaching ; wherefore i deny the consequence . i reply , though protestants deny not the church militant to be visible in the outward government and preaching of the pastors , yet they deny that it is always so conspicuous as that it may be known to every christian , as an assembly of the people of rome , or common-wealth of venice , to which all may resort for direction . nor by this argument do they prove that the church militant is not visible , but that the church in the creeds apostolical and nicene , which is one catholick and apostolick , as such , is not visible , but invisible , being the object of faith , not of sight : nevertheless the answer takes not away the force of the objection , if it had been alleged against the visibility of the church militant . for the church is believed , not as teaching , but as being , it is the existence of the church , not the doctrine of it that is believed , as even the trent catechism expounds it : now that being catholick , that is according to the catechism , consisting of all believers from adam till now in all nations , cannot be the object of sense , but of faith ; and therefore the catholick church in the creeds is the invisible of true believers , not the meer visible now militant . h. t. adds , object . the woman ( the church ) fled into the wilderness , apoc. ▪ . answ . but is followed and persecuted by the dragon , v. . therefore visible . i reply , this answer is ridiculous . for whereas protestants hence prove , that at some times the church is hid from men , this authour saith , it was not hid from the dragon , that is , the devil , which is not in question . so that it appears he had nothing to answer this inference , from the womans flying into the wilderness , and being hid , that sometimes the church is so hidden as it were in a wilderness , that though it be , yet it is not so visible or conspicuous as that men can discern it so as to repair to it , howbeit the devil knows where they lurk . yet once more h. t. object . the church of the predestinate is invisible . answ . there is no such thing as a church of the predestinate . christ's church is the congregation of all true believers , as well reprobate as predestinate . there is in his floor both wheat and chaff , st. matth. c. . and in his field both corn and tares , which shall grow together till the harvest ( the day of judgement ) st. matth. c. . the predestinate are as visible as the reprobate ▪ it is true indeed , their predestination is invisible , and so is also these mens reprobation . i reply , to salve their main tenet of the popes being head of the church of christ , who is often so wicked as that , if the church of christ be determined to be of elect persons onely , many popes cannot be termed members , much less heads of the church , is this audacious assertion invented , that there is no such thing as a church of the predestinate , contrary to express scripture , which mentions the church of the first-born written in heaven , heb. . . and the church elected together with peter , or those he wrote to , pet. . . and saith such things of the church in many places , to wit , ephes . . , , , , , , , , , . ephes . . , , &c. as cannot agree to reprobates , who cannot be said to be christ 's body , his fulness , to be loved , sanctified , whom he nourisheth , intends to present without spot , as he saith there of christ's church . he that desires more proof may reade dr. john rainold his fourth conclusion , where he proves it fully , both from scripture and fathers , that the holy catholick church which we believe is the whole company of gods elect and chosen , which hath not been yet answered that i know . nor do i see how the fourth lateran council could mean otherwise , which determined , as h. t. saith here , art . . pag. . that the universal church of the faithfull is one out of which no man can be saved , which can be true onely of the church of the predestinate . as for what h. t. saith here , the church of christ is the congregation of all true believers as well reprobate as predestinate , it supposeth true believers may be reprobate : but this is false , meaning it of the truth of being opposite to feigned , counterfeit , or in shew onely . for our lord christ hath said , john . . & john . , , , . that such as believe on him shall not perish , come not to condemnation , are passed from death to life , have everlasting life . nor do the texts matth. . . where the floor is not christ's church , but the jewish people , or matth. . . where the field is expresly interpreted vers . to be the world , not the church , speak to the contrary . it is true , the predestinate are as visible as the reprobate , but they are not meerly visible believers as some reprobates are , who profess faith , which they have not . but the true church of christ against which the gates of hell shall not prevail , matth. . . contains onely such believers as have that faith which is true , and that election of god , which with their faith are invisible , and so are rightly denominated the invisible church from that which is more excellent , and the reprobate have not . artic . iv. one catholick church not the roman the church of rome is not that one catholick church , which in the apostolick and nicene creeds is made the object of christian faith. sect . i. unity in non-fundamentals of faith and discipline is not essentially presupposed to the universality of the church militant . h. t. to his fourth article gives this title , the true church demonstrated by her unity and universality ; and then saith , unity being essentially presupposed to universality , i thought it not improper to joyn these two in one article . answ . if this authour had meant to deal plainly , he should have told us what unity is essentially presupposed to universality , and how the true church is demonstrated by her unity and universality . unity in general is so far from being essentially presupposed to universality in general , that the contrary seems more true , that one is not universal , unity not consistent with universality , it being in effect as if i● were said , one is many or all ; yet i deny not some unity in special may be essentially presupposed to some universality in special . there are many sorts of unity which logicians and writers of metaphysicks reckon up , in respect of which it is certain , that the true church of christ cannot be said to be one , as it cannot be said to be one with generical or specifical unity ; for that is not essentially presupposed to universality of time and place , but is abstracted from it . but he seems to mean unity in doctrine , discipline , and faith , by the words following . universality likewise is manifold , as logicians and writers of metaphysicks shew , as there is an universality of predication , of essence , and existence . now this authour seems to mean universality of existence for time and place , and his meaning is this , that unity of doctrine , discipline , and faith , is essentially presupposed to universality of existence for time and place : that is , that church which hath not the same doctrine , faith , and discipline , which all churches of christ in all times and places have had , is not the true church of christ , and that which hath is the true church of christ . now these propositions i grant , if meant of doctrine , and faith in the fundamentals , but not if meant of meer outward church-discipline , or doctrine , and faith in points not fundamental , having learned from the apostle , cor. . , , , . that some may build hay and stubble , that is , some errors upon the foundation christ , who yet may be saved : which they could not be , if they were not of the true church of christ , or , that is no true church of christ , which consists of such . in like manner , the apostle rom. . . expresly tells us in the church of rome , one did believe he might eat all things , and another did eat herbs , one esteemed one day above another , others esteemed every day alike , and yet god received them both , and they were gods servants , v. , , . and that in discipline there may be disagreement , yea , schism , and disorder , is apparent from the church of corinth , cor. . , . & . & . . & . , &c. & . . & . . who are termed the church of god , cor. . . and therefore without distinction and due limitation ( which this authour omits ) his position is not true . but let 's view what he writes . sect . ii. the antiquity of h. t. his saying of the roman church its unity and universality is shewed . now , saith h. t. that the church of rome is both perfectly one , and also universal for time and place is thus demonstrated . answ . here again this authour deals sophistically , putting the roman church for the true church , as if they were the same , and not explaining what he means by the roman church , which may either● signifie the church that is in rome , which is the expression of the apostle , rom. . . or the church where ever it be , which holds the roman faith . and this roman faith may be either the faith in all points which now at this day the bishop , and priests , and people , dwelling at rome hold , or which the christians at rome held in the days of paul , and some ages after . if it be meant in this this last sense , the true church is no more the roman church than corinthian , nor so much as the hierosolymitan , whence all churches received the faith : if in the former sense , the term is not according to the ancient use either in scripture or ancient ecclesiastick writers , though i conceive it so meant by this authour . to be perfectly one is also ambiguous : it may be meant either that they have not the least disagreement in doctrine , discipline , and faith , or they hold the same faith and doctrine in the main , or points fundamental . to be universal for time and place , may be either meant thus , that the persons now termed the roman church are universal for time and place . but this is contrary to sense , it being known by it , that they were born within a certain definite time , at certain definite places , not in all times , and every place existent : or that the faith which now the romanists hold , is that which in all times and places the true church of god hath held . and this we deny if it be meant of the articles in pope pius the fourth his creed , and are willing to put all our controversies to this issue . but h. t. looks quite awry from this , as will appear by viewing his dispute , which is thus . sect . iii. unity under one visible bead without division in lesser points and disciplin , is not proved from cor. . . ephes . . , . john . . cor. . . act. . . john . . and the nicene creed . h. t. saith the argument for unity . the church of christ is one body , one fold or flock ( of which he himself is the supreme invisible head , and the pope his deputy on earth the visible or ministerial ) but the roman catholick church and no other is this one body , one sold or flock ; therefore the roman catholick church and no other is the church of christ . the major is proved , we are one bread and one body as many as participate of one bread . cor. . . he hath made him ( christ ) head over all the church which is his body . ephes . . , . there shall be made one fold and one pastor . john . . i beseech you , that you all speak one thing , and that there be no schisms among you , but that ye be perfect in one sense and one judgement . cor. . the multitude of believers had one heart , one soul . act. . . christ prayed that his disciples might be one . st. john . . i believe one holy catholick and apostolick church . the nicene creed . ans . . the thing pretended to be demonstrated by her unity , was the true church , after he changeth it into this , that the church of rome is both perfectly one , and also universal for time and place is thus demonstrated , here the conclusion is the roman catholick church and no other is the church of christ . by comparing of which it is apparent , that this author supposeth the true church , the church of rome , and the roman catholick church to be synonymous or diverse names of the same thing , which is supposed but not proved , nor yeilded , nor can be true , as shall be shewed after . . this author pretends to demonstrate by this argument , the church of rome to be perfectly one , which should have been his conclusion , whereas not heeding his words he makes it the minor. . he puts in by a parenthesis in the major many words which are not in the minor , though they belong to the middle term , which should be the same in both premises : nor is any proof brought for them here ; to wit , that the pope is christs deputy on earth , the visible or ministerial head of that church , which is one body , one fold or flock . . that the major might be for his purpose it should have been thus ; that church which is one body , one fold or flock ( of which he himself is the supreme invisible head , and the pope his deputy on earth the visible or ministerial ) and no other is the church of christ , but such is the church of rome , ergo . but as it is now framed it is in the second figure of all affirmatives , which is against logick rules , and makes the syllogism naught , as the very freshmen know . but to it as it is now framed i answer . if the words [ and the pope his deputy on earth the visible or ministerial ] be left out , the major is granted in this sense , that the universal church of christ are one body by unity of one spirit and faith of the fundamentals , and one flock by unity of one head , and supreme pastor . but in h. t. his sense it is most false , that it is one by the same faith in every point without any difference in lesser points , or without any divisions in rites and disciplin , and in subjection to one universal bishop on earth , as christs deputy and the churches visible head . nor do any of the texts prove it in this sense . for the first doth not express what all christians were in respect of their state ; but profession , and the unity is not derived from either subjection to one universal bishop on earth , or agreement in all points , but from participating of one bread in the lords supper . for it is not to be read as this author after the vulgar translation reads it [ as many as participate of one bread ] but [ for we all partake of one bread ] it being in greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and in some copies of the vulgar [ nam omnes ] as in the plantin edition by the lovain divines . i finde it in the margin : so that the meaning is this , we do shew our selves one body , one bread , forasmuch as we all partake of one bread in the lords supper . the next text , ephes . . , . proves only that the church is one body by unity of one head , to wit christ , as h. t. rightly interprets it . and the third text , john . . also makes the whole church one flock ( as it should be read ) not one fold , in respect of one pastor , which the very words , ver . . , , . do shew plainly to be christ himself , who gave his life for them , and no other ; and therefore none of these texts derive the unity of the church from subjection to the bishop of rome as visible head or chief pastor . the next text , cor. . . doth only prove that the church ought to be of one mind and one judgement without schisms , not that they are , or must be , if they be the true church , but the text proves the contrary , that they may be a true church though there be schisms , and difference of judgement among them . the fifth , acts . . only proves that the church at jerusalem once were so ( at which time they had also all things common , which doubtless h. t. will not say must or doth agree to the whole church at all times ) but not that the whole church shall be so still . the last , john . . is a prayer of christ that it may be so , and so will be accomplished , but by the words , ver . , , . it seems most likely not to be till they be consummate in glory ; or if afore , yet certainly the unity cannot be meant of unity in every thing ; for so peter and paul did not agree , as gal. . , , , . it appears , but of such unity in communion with god , and aiming at his glory , as is only in the elect by vertue of christs indwelling by his spirit : which is nothing to the unity which h. t. here requires as peculiar to the roman church . the passage of the nicene creed proves only an unity of the church , but not an unity by agreement in all points and subjection to one catholick bishop on earth . so that h. t. after his fashion cites many texts , but not one for his purpose . sect . iv. it is notoriously false that the romanists are perfectly one , or have better unity , or means of unity than protestants , and h. t. his argument for the truth of the roman church from its unity proves the contrary . h. t. adds . the minor is made evident ( even to the weakest understanding ) by the present manifold schisms and divisions , which are now among protestants and all other sectaries , as well in doctrine as government , whereas catholicks are perfectly one both in disciplin and doctrine , all the world over , even to the least article or point of faith , being all united to one supreme invisible head , christ jesus , and all subordinate to one visible and ministerial head , the pope his vicar on earth ; we all resolve our selves in points of faith into one safe and most unchangeable principle , i believe the holy catholick church , we look on her as the immediate and authorized proponent of all revealed verities , and the infallible judge of controversies ; god himself being the prime author , and his authority the formal motive and object of our faith . answ . . the protestants are not sectaries nor divided from the catholick church , but from the now roman party , who are really a faction divided from the catholick church holding a new faith never established till the tridentin council , though with an impudent face h. t. avouch a most palbable falshood of the romanists universality , and arrogates to the roman the title of catholick church . nor are the now divisions of protestants in doctrine or government such as cut them off from the unity of the catholick church , they own christ their head , and faith in him , which is sufficient to save them , and even by this authors next argument , enough to make them members of the catholick church . . the schisms and divisions of the papists have been and are as great as the divisions of the protestants . in former ages there were many schisms even in the church of rome between the several popes at one time , and the factions among the people about popes and emperours and other quarrels . onuphrius reckons up thirty . bellarmin himself twenty six schisms one after another , sometimes one pope condemning what another had done , and excommunicating and persecuting emperours , antipapes , and all that have adhered to them . besides the contentions about the virgin maries immaculate conception , about the superiority of a council above the pope , about priests marriages , election of popes , investiture of bishops have been so great , and frequent , and of long continuance , as their own histories shew , that they far exceed the protestants divisions . the divisions in this last age , and some at this day , to wit , in and since the council of trent between catharinus , soto , vega , andradius about certainty of salvation ; pighius and others about inherent righteousness , the spanish and other bishops and the papalins about the divine right of bishops and their residence , not deriving their episcopacy from the pope ; the french churches not acknowledging the bishop of rome above a council , nor yet receiving the trent council : the two popes sixtus the fifth and clement the eighth , about the vulgar translation both enjoyning each of their editions and no other , as the right copy to be received under penalty of a curse , though one in many places contradict the other ( as dr. james in his bellum papale shews , from which no papists have or can vindicate the two popes ) the divisions in england and ireland between the secular priests and the jesuits about episcopal jurisdiction and visitations , between papists in italy , at venice , and in england about the popes power in temporal things over princes , in france and england about the lawfulness of killing kings excommunicated by the pope , in england and france about jesuitical equivocation , at this day between dominicans and jesuits , jansenists and mol●nists about gods predeterminations , efficacious and sufficient grace , and mans freewill have been and are at this day as great or greater in respect of the things in which they differ , the continuance of them , the parties differing and their bitterness one to another , then the protestants divisions , and therefore the brag of h. t. concerning the popish unity , that catholicks are perfectly one both in discipline and doctrine all the world over , even to the least article or point of faith , is a falshood apparent to all well read scholars , though the simple english papists , from whom the truth of these things is concealed , are made to believe by their priests disguises and pretences as if it were so . nor doth that which h. t. here saith , salve the matter , and if it did , the protestants have as good a plea for themselves , notwithstanding their divisions , in respect of means for unity . for , . the papists all the world over are not so subordinate to the pope as to acknowledge his superiority to a council , but that they have and think they may appeal from the pope to a general council , which may judge the pope an heretick and depose him , yea and take away the pope altogether if they see it necessary , nor do the jansenists acquiesce in the late pope innocents determination at this day , nor do the sorbonists in france acknowledge the popes power in temporals , or the venetians the popes power to interdict their state and meddle with their government in exempting ecclesiasticks from their jurisdiction . . that which he saith of the catholick church as the immediate and authorized proponent of all revealed verities , and the infallible judge of controversies is either nonsense or false , or that which papists reject in protestants . if they mean by the catholick church the pope , or the pope with his cardinals , or a council , it is ridiculous nonsense to call any or all of them the catholick church , which , according to their own tridentin catechism , contains all believers from adam to this day , or that shall be hereafter , and according to this author , p. . is coexistent with all times , and spread or diffused over all places : or if it be understood according to good sense , it is most false . for the catholick church properly so called as it is in the creed , is neither mediate nor immediate proponent of all revealed verities , much less authorized thereto , nor do papists so look on them . for many of the papists go no further than the present pope or council , or their priests , ( who only are to most the immediate proponents ) but rest in their determinations and adhere to what they determine with an implicite faith and blind obedience , never enquiring what all believers have held or done before them . nor is it possible they should have resolution from the catholick church properly understood as in the creed it is believed : for it is invisible , they never did together express their determination in all points of faith , have varied in many , nor could it be known to others of their own time if they had , much less to the believers of this age . nor is the catholick church fit to be the mediate or immediate proponent of all revealed verities , nor fit for such an authority as to be infallible judge of controversies : for to say the catholick church is such , is to say the university of believers is such , of whom a great part are women , a great part ignorant persons altogether uncapable of such an office : yea it is contrary to the apostle pauls resolution , cor. . , . who tells us , that god hath set some in the church , first apostles , then prophets , thirdly teachers , not the church to be teachers , which is all one with proponents of revealed verities , but teachers in the church : and these are denied to be all the church , when he saith , ver . . are all teachers ? and to make them infallible is contrary to the apostle . rom. . . where he saith , let god he true , and every man a lyar , surely then not an infallible judge of controversies : yea should this be granted , it would bring all confusion into the churches of god. nor can the speech have any good sense , that the catholick church is judge in controversies , but this which protestants indeed rightly teach , that every man is to judge for himself , not for others with a judgement of discerning what doctrine or points of faith he hears , and receives , yet requiring upon pain of damnation that they be careful in examining what they embrace , which the papists do so much inveigh against falsly , as if it were a leaving every man to his private spirit , though they do in this no otherwise than papists must of necessity , yeild to each man when the determinations of popes and councils are ambiguous , as they were in the council of trent , and are often in the decrees , breves and other edicts of popes , as is manifest by the writers on the canon law , and disputes about the councils and popes meaning , in which are so many ambiguities that there is scarce a point in which there are not many opposite opinions . if pappus have overcounted , who reckons out of bellarmin alone two hundred thirty seven contradictions in popish writers ; yet he that reads bellarmins controversies , shall finde very few questions , in which the schoolmen and other papists do not gainsay each other . and as for their resolution into the principle , i believe the catholick church . they are not agreed what the church is from whom they may have resolution , whether the pope , who is with them the church virtual , or a general council , which is either never , or very rare , which they call the church representative , or the uniform consent of the fathers , according to which only the profession of faith of pope pius the fourth requires all papists to receive and expound the holy scriptures : and yet this uniform consent of fathers is either a nullity , it being scarce found in any point , or it is impossible to be known . h. t. by his words pag. . resolves his faith into the next precedent age and so upwards , and here pag. . into the church , and this church is , pag. . not the whole church ( which yet is all one with the catholick ) but a council approved by the pope , into whose authority they finally resolve their faith ; for though they pretend to resolve it into the scripture , yet as it is expounded by the church , pag. , . which is the pope . so that whatever pretence they make of resolving their faith into the church as the proponent , or god as the author ; in conclusion they acquiesce in what the pope dictates by himself or with a council approved by him . as for the scriptures the papists are not all agreed which be the canonical scriptures , which not : nor can they set down certain rules to know what are the unwritten traditions of the church , which they are to admit and embrace with a like affection of piety as the written word , as the trent council decreed , sess . . nor can they have any bottom to rest on by their principles ; sometimes one pope and one council crossing another , some having been condemned in general councils as hereticks : nor can they tell , but by information of others , as priests or carriers , of their bulls or breves ( which are many of them not only fallible , but also false , as some of their own have complained ) what the popes determin , and what fraud is used in procuring popes bulls or breves sometimes is many ways testified , as that the bull of pius the fifth , wherein queen elizabeth was excommunicated and deprived , was gotten in a fraudulent way by morton and webb ; there is no certainty from the reports of others what the pope determins , except a man hear him preach , or pronounce sentence , or see him write and seal , he must rely on the testimony of those that may ▪ and are like enough to deceive . nor if a man see or hear the pope decree , can he be certain whether he spake from peters chair , or determine what is to be believed by the whole church ( out of which case they say he is fallible ) or give his opinion as a private doctor . so that it is most false , that either papists agree as h. t. saith , or resolve themselves into one safe and most unchangeable principle , or have any infallible judge of controversies , or have god himself for the prime author , and his authority the formal object and motive of their faith : but their faith in what they differ from us rests only on mens sayings , for the most part ignorant and wicked ( for such have been most of the popes for a thousand years ) whom they follow against the plain and confessed words of the scripture , as in their communion under one kinde , worshipping of images , and ascribe to them power by their authority to declare new scriptures and articles of faith , and make the scripture only to be believed because of the churches determination , that is the popes , which in respect of us they make of more authority than the scripture , and so make the churches , not gods authority , the formal motive and object of their faith . so that if unity be a note of the church , of all others the popish church can lay least claim to it , and h. t. his argument may be retorted . the catholick church is one , the roman church is not one , therefore the roman church is not the catholick church . on the other side the protestants have better unity and means of unity than papists . for however they differ in ceremonies and disciplin , yet in points of faith they differ little , as may appear by the harmony of their confessions , which shews agreement in their churches ; however in explication of points private doctors differ , and they have a more sure principle and safe in owning one master even christ , and one certain rule to know the minde of god , to wit the holy scripture , which the papists themselves make the object of faith , and the translation into the english tongue makes plain in the chief points to be believed , so that every ordinary man may be certain what it delivers concerning them , and this translation appears to be certain in those things , by comparing it even with the papists own english translation at rhemes and dow●y , which had they left out their corrupt annotations and permitted it to be read ( as god requires ) by all sorts of persons , the falshood and errors of popish priests would soon appear , and be rejected by all that love truth . sect . v. the argument of h. t. from the unity of a natural body , is against him and for protestants . but h. t. adds a second argument for the unity of the catholick church thus . as a natural unity and connexion of the parts among themselves , and to the head is necessary for the being and conservation of a natural body : so the spiritual unity and connexion of the members amongst themselves and to the head , is necessary for the being and conservation of a mystical body . but the church of christ ( as i have proved ) is a mystical body . therefore a spiritual unity and connexion of the members amongst themselves and to the head , is necessary for the being and conservation of the church of christ . the major is proved by the parity of reason , which is between a natural and mystical body ; for as a natural body must needs dye , if all it's parts by which it should subsist be torn and divided one from another ; so also a mystical body perishes , if all it's members be divided from one another , and from the head ( whence it hath it's spiritual life ) by schism and heresie . answ . though it be that this argument is only from a similitude , which doth only illustrate not prove , as logicians say truely , and there be such disparities between a natural body and a mystical , as are sufficient to shew the weakness of this arguing ; as namely , that there are no parts vital in the mystical body besides the head , as the heart , liver and lungs are in the natural , that some parts of the head it self may be cut off , as the ears , and nose , and yet the being , though not the integrity of the body continue , that there are some parts that have not life , as hair , and nayles , ( as some conceive ) that the parts receive not life from the head , but the head and the rest from the soul : yet ●ith the conclusion is true , and the argument with its proof many wayes against the popish tenets , i grant it , and observe , . that the unity which is proved hence , is not of the universal visible church ; the truth of which papists and this author go about to demonstrate by it's unity , but of the mystical . for in this mystical body the unity is spiritual by faith , and the members have spiritual life from the head . but in the catholick church ( of which the disputes are ) according to bellarm. l. . de eccl . milit . c. &c. are many dead members , secret infidels : so that this argument proves not the catholick visible by it's unity , but the catholick invisible of true believers . . this argument is not to prove the unity of the church by subjection to the roman bishop , by which h. t. would demonstrate the unity of the church , but by the unity to that head whence the body hath it's spiritual life and motion , which sure is christ only and not the bishop of rome . . this similitude , if by [ head ] were meant the pope , cannot evince the purpose of this author . for there have been schisms in the roman church of one pope and his party against another , and yet the unity of the catholick church in the profession of the ●ame faith continued . whence it follows , that schism doth not take away the unity of the church catholick without heresie , but only disorder , distemper and disquiet it . and therefore though it were granted ( as it is not ) that protestants were schismaticks in dividing from the see of rome , yet they might be united to the catholick church , and it 's being and conservation continued as long as the unity of faith is continued , and until it be proved that protestants have departed from the unity of faith once delivered to the saints ( which he can never do ) in vain doth h. t. go about to prove they are not united , to the catholick church . sect . vi. the universality , which matth. . . eph. . , . luk. . . john . , . for time , psal . . . isa . . . matth. . . for place is meant , agrees not to the now roman church , but better to the protestants . but h. t. proceeds thus . to be universal for time and place is nothing else but to be coexistent with all time , and to be spread or diffused over all places . but the church of christ from the time he hath founded it hath been coexistent with all time , and shall be to the worlds end , and hath and shall be spread over all nations , therefore the church of christ is universal ( or catholick ) for time and place . the major is proved because the definition and the thing defined are convertible . the minor is proved by scripture for time , st. matth. . . ephes . . , . st. john . , . st. luke . . for place , psal . . . isa . . . st matth. . . answ . . the conclusion should have been , the roman catholick church and no other is the church of christ , and the argument thus . that church which is universal for time and place , and no other is the church of christ . but the roman catholick church and no other is universal for time and place , therefore the roman catholick church and no other is the church of christ . but so the major had not been true of any church existent in one age , nor the minor true of the present roman church ▪ but it is contrary to all sense and histories which relate the occurrences of the world , specially in the churches of christ . . as the argument is framed here by h. t. the conclusion is granted being thus understood , that the church of christ is not confined to israel only , but extended to all nations indefinitely and aptitudinally , though not definitely and actually extended to every nation . for some nations never were actually the church of christ , nor any church of christ among them , though there was no restraint by christs command of preaching to them . but if it be understood of actual coexistence with all times and all places so the minor is not true : nor the major , as i conceive the meaning of the term [ catholick ] in the article of the creed , i believe the holy catholick church : nor is that the definition of the church catholick , that it is actually coexistent with all time , and to be spread or diffused over all places : but it is termed catholick , because it is not confined to one nation , and comprehends all the believers of any nation , jew or gentile : nor do the texts he brings prove any other universality . for matth. . . proves not such an universality , as that there shall be no interval of time or particular place , wherein the church shall not be existent . but that christ would be with them that preach the gospel all dayes till the end of the world , so as that they had liberty to preach the gospel in every place , and should finde his assistance while they did preach , not that alwayes in each day there shall be a church of christ on earth , much lesse that there shall be a church visible conspicuously to all in every nation of the earth . the like is the sense of ephes . . , . which is , that christ hath given various gifts till all come to the unity of faith : but this proves not there shall be a continuance of the church on earth in every age , much lesse so conspicuously visible as that it may be known to all , much more lesse in every place . john . , . is yet farther from the purpose as containing a peculiar promise to the apostles : if it be meant of any church it is the invisible of true believers , not of every or any meer visible church , wherein many have not the spirit of christ at all , much lesse abiding with them for ever . the text luke . . doth not prove that there shall be in every age or time a church on earth , but that christs dominion shall never end . the texts psal . . . isa . . . are thus meant , that not only the jews , but also all nations , that is , all other people by faith shall be admitted to the church of god by faith as well as jews ; now this proves not , that there shall be in every place on earth a church of christ . but h. t. adds . i resume the argument and make it thus . . that church which is not universal ( or catholick ) for time and place is not the church of christ . . but the protestant church ( and the like may be said of all other sectaries ) is not universal ( or catholick ) for time and place . . therefore the protestant church is not the church of christ . the major hath been proved before . the minor is proved , because before luther ( who lived little above ●ixscore years ago ) there were no protestants to be found in the whole world , as hath been proved by us , and confessed by our adversaries . to which you may adde , they have never yet been able to convert any one nation from infidelity to the faith of christ , nor ever had communion with all nations , nor indeed any perfect communion among themselves : therefore they cannot be the catholick church . answ . the major , that church which is not universal for time and place is not the church of christ , if meant of actual or aptitudinal universality is not true . for the church of the jews afore cornelius was converted by peter had been no church of christ , which was actually , yea and aptitudinally , that is according to peters and other christians circumcised their opinions and intentions to be confined to the jews : and therefore no other church than on earth were or was believed by peter and those who contended with him , act. . . and yet there was a church of christ before , as is manifest from acts . . but if the major be understood of universality of faith thus , that church which is not universal for time and place by holding the faith once delivered by the apostles to the saints is not the church of christ , it is granted : but in that sense the minor is false , the protestants church is universal for time and place : that is , holds the same faith , which was in all places preached by the apostles and apostolical teachers to believers . and in this sense protestants have been in every age before luther , and have as really converted nations from infidelity to the faith of christ as the popish church or teachers , and have had more perfect communion with all nations and among themselves then papists , as such , have had , and the papists have not been so , but have held a new faith , not embraced by a great part of christians , nor in all places received or known , nor for many hundreds of years taught in the churches , but lately by the italian faction devised to uphold the popes tyranny and their own gain . and therefore i retort the argument thus . that church which is not universal ( or catholick ) for the time and place , is not the church of christ . but the popish roman church is not universal ( or catholick ) for time and place , but is of late standing , therefore it is not the true church of christ . sect . vii . the words of irenaeus , origen , lactantius , cyril of hierusalem , augustin are not for the universality of h. t. which he asserts the catholicism of the roman church , but against it . as for the words of the fathers , which h. t. allegeth on this article , they are not for h. t. his purpose to prove , that that is the only true church which is subject to the bishop of rome , or that the roman church is the catholick church , but they prove the contrary . for the words of irenaem l. . adv . haereses c. . are these . wherefore we ought to obey those presbyters which are in the church , those which have succession from the apostles as we have shewed , who with the succession of bishoprick have received the certain gift of truth according to the pleasure of the father : but to have the rest suspected either as hereticks and of evil opinion , or as renters and lifted up and pleasing themselves , or again as hypocrites working for gain and vain glories sake , who depart from the original succession and are gathered in every place . for all these fall from the truth . by which it may be perceived . . that h. t. omitted sundry words which would have shewed that presbyters and bishops were all one . . that irenaeus requires that those to whom he would have obedience given , be such as have not only succession of place , but also the certain gift of truth . whence it follows . . that this speech doth not prove that we are to obey only the bishop of rome , or the roman church , but any presbyters . . that the succession required is not confined to rome , but extended to any place . . that succession to any of the apostles as well as peter is termed original succession . . that presbyters who in any place depart not from the truth are in the church . and therefore this place is so far from proving the necessity of unity with the roman church , or that it is the catholick church , that it proves the contrary . the words of origen are not for h. t. which require no other doctrine to be kept , but that which is by order of succession from the apostles , and remains in the church to his time . for neither do they say , the church is only the roman church , nor that doctrine to be kept which remains in it , or that which is delivered from peter only , or by order of succession from his chair , or is delivered by unwritten tradition : but that which is delivered any way from the apostles by succession in any place . the words of lactantius are lesse for h. t. which do not at all call the roman the catholick church , nor say in it only is gods true worship and service and hope of life , but in the catholick church , that is the church of true believers all over the world , as the words of cyril of hierusalem next alleged do shew , in which is nothing for h. t. or against us . and for the words of augustin in his book de vera religione , cap. . we must hold the communion of that church which is called catholick both by her own and strangers , they are maimedly recited , augustin saying , that we are to hold the christian religion and communion of that church , not onely which is named catholick , but which is catholick , and is named catholick ; and cap. . he explains what is meant by catholick church , per totum orbem validè latéque diffusa , spread over the whole world firmly and largely , and of the religion which he terms the history and prophecy of the temporal dispensation of the divine providence for the salvation of mankinde to be reformed and repaired unto eternal life . whereby it may be perceived , that he neither accounted that christian religion , which is about the bishop of rome's power , or any of the popish tenets which protestants deny , but the doctrine of salvation by christ , nor the catholick church the roman onely , but the christian church throughout the world , which consists of them , who are named christians , catholicks , or orthodox , that is , keepers of integrity , and followers of the things which are right , as he speaks cap. . and for the words of augustine , epist . . that whosoever is divided from the catholick church , how laudable soever he seems to himself to live , &c. he shall be excluded from life , they are impudently appropriated to the roman church . for a few lines before augustine declares whom he calls the catholick church , that which is spread over the earth , which is designed by the divine testimonies of holy scriptures , which beginning from hierusalem increased in places in which the apostles preached , and have written the names of the same places in their epistles and acts , and was spread over the other nations . so that clearly augustine tells us it was not the roman church onely which he meant by the catholick , but also the corinthian , ephesian , thessalonian , and all the rest in the world . and therefore it is apparent that neither this not any other father understood by the catholick church , the roman onely , and those who acknowledged the bishop of rome's supremacy , nor did they hold a necessity of union with it . sect . viii . that it is non-sense or falshood to term the roman church the catholick church , and the shifts of h. t. to avoid this objection are discovered . h. t. adds , object . the roman catholick church is a particular church , therefore it is not catholick or universal . answ . i distinguish your antecedent , the roman church as taken onely for the congregation of rome or italy , is a particular church , i grant : as taken for the whole collection of churches holding communion with the see of rome , i deny it . for so it is an universal church containing all particular churches , as all the parts are contained in the whole , and in this acception also it is called the roman church , because the particular roman church is the mother church , and hath a power of headship and jurisdiction over all the rest . object . how can a church of one denomination be universal ? answ . i have told you already by the extent and latitude of her power , which is over all . so a particular man is called a general , by reason of his power over all the army . i reply , protestants do rightly object , that the terming of the roman church catholick , is according to the right sense of words , to speak contradictions , to call that the whole which is not the whole but a part , universal , which is onely particular . the answer is by a distinction , which is meer non-sense . the church of rome as taken onely for the congregation of rome or italy is a particular c●urch , as taken for the whole collection of churches holding communion with the see of rome , so it is universal . but was ever such language used by any apostle or ancient to term the church of rome any other than the believers dwelling or being at rome ? did ever any of the first ages term the congregation of italy , or the whole collection of churches holding communion with the see of rome the roman church ? paul when he wrote to the church of rome wrote to all that were in rome , rom. . . and ignatius the martyr when he wrote to the church of rome terms it , the church which is seated in a place of the region of romans , and the old councils termed the bishop of rome , the arch-bishop of old rome , to distinguish it from new rome , and a roman synod is always meant of a synod in the city of rome . if the new-minted gibberish of these men be received , then the church of millain , of paris , of toledo , and the rest are all one with the roman church , and the bishop of millain , &c. the bishop of rome . who would not think that man crazed that should talk or write so ? by this kinde of talk the roman church should not be one and the corinthian another , but the roman church , the corinthian , ephesian , and all , and the apostle writing to the corinthian should write to the roman church , charging the corinthian with schisms should charge the roman . but this new canting language is fit for these juglers , who have by such terms bewitched silly papists to receive their new doctrine . h. t. saith , as the roman church is the collection of all churches holding communion with the see of rome , so it is an universal church containing all particular churches as all the parts are contained in the whole . i reply , neither doth he shew any approved authour for his speech , nor what sort of parts other particular churches are as they are contained in the roman as the whole . he will not make it an universal whole which is predicate or said on more churches , in quid , that is , when the question is what the more churches are ? to say they are the roman . for then it were true to say , the church of naples is the roman , and so of other churches . if any were asked who is in his wits , what is the church of naples ? would he say , it is the church of rome ? nor are other churches essential parts . for then the roman church should not be , if the churches of naples , &c. were not : if they apostarize the church of rome ceaseth to be . nor will it be said , other churches are integral parts . for then the church of rome should be maimed , and be but half a church , if they revolted from the faith or obedience to the see or church of rome . what other parts he means i understand not , nor do i think h. t. distinctly knows himself ; but that he is used to this unintelligible jesuitical non-sense of roman catholick church . sure before he made this the definition of catholick , that it is nothing else but to be coexistent with all time , and to be spread or diffused over all places : according to which , by terming the church of rome catholick , he should mean that the roman church hath been in all places since christ built this church , and in every place of the world : but both these are palpable lies , contrary to all histories and sense : nor in this sense should it be as a whole that hath parts , but be the onely and an ubiquetary church . but he gives two reasons of this title , that it is the mother church , and hath power of headship and jurisdiction over all the rest . i reply , . that both these are manifestly false . for the roman church is not the mother church in any true sense . it is a saying indeed , that god is a believers father , and the church his mother . but however the ancients have used it , yet the scripture saith not so , nor is it in any good sense true . for the church is but a congregation of believers , who are first such a●ore they are a church : now then the sense must be the church , that is , believers are the mother of believers , that is , the church , which is ridiculous . it is true , it is said , gal. . . the jerusalem which is above is free , which is the mother of us all : but that is the evangelical covenant , v. . not the church . nor is there any thing done by the church , or upon the church , from which in a meet resemblance the church may be termed the mother of believers . they are the preachers of the gospel not the church who bring forth souls to christ . if the term [ mother church ] be from hence , that from it the gospel went forth , it can be meant of none but jerusalem , from whence the gospel went into all the world , not from the roman church . nor is it true , that the roman church hath the power of headship over all the rest , no not according to the papists own opinion , which is that the bishop of rome hath this power , and that it belongs to his pastoral office : now i suppose they will not say the church hath the pastoral office , or that they are pastors ; if they should , they must make women , who are of the church as well as men , pastors , and all the believers ( who are the church ) pastors as well as the bishop , aud if the church be pastors or have power of jurisdiction , who are the sheep who are to be fed , and over whom this jurisdiction is to be exercised ? but if they mean onely by the church universal the pope of rome , then all that is to be enquired is who is the true pope , when enquiry is made which is the true church , and when there is no pope , then there is no church , and when the pope is uncertain , it is uncertain which is the church . so ridiculous is the papists talk and dispute about the church , that there is no tolerable sense can be made with truth of the roman church being catholick , the mother of churches , having power of headship and jurisdiction over all churches . nor is it true , that the pope of rome hath either of right or in possession such power ; not of right , as shall be shewed art . . where it will appear that the claim to it is meerly impudent , and arrogant , without any colour of right ; nor in possession . for besides the protestant churches , the greek churches neither now nor heretofore , when unquestionably orthodox , were ever subject to the romish bishop . yet were these things granted to h. t. that the roman church were mother and head , is this a fit reason to term it catholick ? will any call a mother of twenty children all her twenty children ? will any man call julius caesar , because dictator of rome , or the roman senate , because rulers , all the roman people , or all the people of that empire ? h. t. his instance is frivolous : though men call the rulers of an army the captain general , yet not a general man , or the universal army ; and sutably , if it were allowed , that the bishop of rome were universal bishop , yet in no good sense could he or the roman church be termed the universal church . but this talk about the roman catholick church is manifestly ridiculous non-sense or false . h. t. adds , object . you communicate not with us , and many others , therefore your communion is not catholick or universal . answ . i grant the antecedent , but deny the consequent : for universal communion requires not communion with all particular sects or persons , but onely with all true believers , no , a man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition avoid . tit. . , . answ . to catholick communion is requisite communion with all christian churches , though not with all particular sects . and that the protestant churches are no hereticks is manifest from their confessions , which agree with the scripture doctrine ; although papists do clamorously term them such , and destroy them as such , and therein shew themselves successours to nero , not to peter ; whereas papists are the most manifest schismaticks , and greatest hereticks that ever were . i pass on to the next article . artic . v. the roman church is neither proved to be the catholick church , nor the highest visible judge of controversies , nor is it proved that she is infallible both in her propositions and definitions of all points of faith ; nor to have power from god to oblige all men to believe her under pain of damnation : but all this is a meer impudent and arrogant claim of romanists that hath no colour of proof from scripture or antiquity . sect . i. the deceit of h. t. is shewed in asserting an infallibility and judicature of controversies in the church , which he means of the pope ▪ h. t. entitles his fifth article thus , the churches infallibility demonstrated , and saith , our tenet is , that the roman catholick church is the highest visible judge of controversies , and that she is infallible both in her propositions and definitions of all points of faith ; having a power from god to oblige all men to believe her under pain of damnation . and six pages after p. . he saith thus , note here for your better understanding this whole question , that when we affirm , the church is infallible in things of faith , by the word [ church ] we understand not onely the church diffused over all the world , unanimously teaching , whose doctrine of faith we hold to be infallible , but also the church represented in a council perfectly oecumenical , ( that is to say , called out of the whole world , and approved by the pope ) whose definitions of faith we hold to be infallible . ans . we have here a most arrogant proud claim like that of the king of tyrus , ezek. . , . i am god , i sit in the seat of god , there is no secret that they can hide from me . for what is this less which is here ascribed to meer men , often the worst of men , than the prerogative of the son of god : surely it's more than angels have , job . : but though this author is bold enough in the title and tenet , yet in his after note he hath such subterfuges as shew his despair of making it good , and his deceitful mockage of his unwary reader . for , . he deals like a sophister that after his arguments states the question . . he doth so shift off this infallibility from one to another , that he knows not well where to fix it . fain he would fasten it on the pope , as he doth in a manner at last ; and hart more plainly confesseth with rainold , ch . . divis . . though it behove the pope to use the advise of his brethren ; and therefore i spake of confistories , courts and councils ; yet whether he follow their advise or no his decrees are true . but then the arguments from scripture and fathers which speak of the church , not of the pope , had appeared to be impertinent . therefore he doth not in plain words disclaim it's infallibility ; but saith , when we affirm the church is infallible in things of faith , by the word [ church ] we understand not only the church diffused over all the world unanimously teaching , whose doctrines of faith we hold to be infallible . wherein you may perceive . . egregious vanity , in making the roman church catholick . . the church diffused over all the world teaching . . teaching unanimously , which are all like a sick mans dreams of a golden mountain , there having never been any such thing as this in the world , nor ever is likely to be . . egregious deceit in the terming this church infallible , judge of controversies , propounding and defining points of faith , having power from god to oblige all men under pain of damnation to believe her : which is meerly to delude silly papists speaking of the churches power , which they place in the pope and so draw them into his net . for i would ask this h. t. where or when the catholick church diffused over the whole world distinct from an oecumenical council did teach , much lesse teach unanimously , or how they know it ? he will certainly say , it hath been in councils or the popes determinations . why then doth not this author say plainly , the infallibility and judgement of controversies is not in the catholick church diffused over the world , according to the meaning of the words ( which were indeed to say all believers were infallible ) but say , he means not only , which is as if he had said , the catholick church diffused over the world is infallible , but not it only , when he means it not to be infallible at all : nor doth he deal better in placing it in a council . for. . he supposeth such a council perfectly oecumenical called out of the whole world , as never was nor is likely ever to be . . this council he will not have to be infallible without the popes approbation . . he placeth the words [ whose definitions of faith we hold to be infallible ] so as that a reader may conceive either he means the councils or the popes definitions . however it is certain he makes the council without the pope not infallible , so that the pope hath the negative voice . but indeed this author or many of his fellows at least hold , that if the pope himself without a council define any point of faith it must be received ; yea bellarmin saith l. . de pontifice romano . c. . if the pope should erre in commanding vices or forbidding vertues , the church should be bound to believe vices to be good and vertues to be evil , unless she would sin against conscience . so that however the church be pretended , it is the pope who is intended , who is masked under the name of the church , but sometimes termed the pastor of the church , as if the same person could be relative and correlative too , pastor and church both . and this one person ( as if all knowledge lay in his breast ) must be the judge of all controversies of faith , though perhaps an infidel in heart , one of the greatest perverters of the faith of christ in the world , and the greatest offender , and most justly accused of any in the world , being notoriously and horribly vitious , and maintain manifest sins , ( not only erre in doubtful matters , as bellarmin would seem to limit his speech in his recognition ) even these monstrous sins , of breaking oaths and leagues , killing kings , allowing incestuous marriages , making and worshipping of images , yea though he be so unlearned ( as it is said of one ) as not to understand grammer , pope gregory the great himself understood not greek , pope zachary condemned bishop vigilius as an heretick for holding antipodes , though he be seldome a divine , for the most part a meer canonist , whose very decrees , breves and bulls shew such grosse ignorance and pervertings of scripture , as a graduate in the english universities would be ashamed of , yet he must be judge of controversies between the most learned divines in the world and in the most weighty points of faith . surely were not papists either very silly or very atheistical , or very much bewitched with the romish sorceries they would never be so sottish as they are to trust to the popes definitions in points of faith , but of any other most suspect them , especially considering how much respect to their own gain and greatnesse , how little to the good of mens souls is in all their determinations . no marvail though different parties appeal to the pope , yet neither stand to his sentence , as of old have been seen in sundry points , and as at this day in the late controversies between jansenists and molinists in france . sect . ii. luke . . proves not the roman or catholick churches infallibility . but let us view the proofs that are brought by h. t. for his monstrous assertion of the roman catholick ( as he terms it ) churches judicature of controversies , infallibility in her propositions and definitions of all points of faith and power from god to oblige all men to believe her under pain of damnation : where first he brings four arguments for her infallibility . the first is thus . no man by hearing ( or believing ) christ can hear an errour in faith . but every man by hearing the church hears christ , therefore no man by hearing the church can hear an errour in faith , therefore she is infallible . the major must be granted , otherwise you charge christ to be the author of damning lyes . the minor is proved ; he that beareth you ( the church ) heareth me , and he that despiseth you despiseth me . st. luk. . the consequences are both unavoidable . answ . . the conclusion is not the same with the tenet , which was that the roman catholick church is infallible , but in the conclusion is no mention of the roman church more then of any other church , to wit , the hierosolymitan or antiochian , and so that which was to be proved is not proved . . the minor is denyed , and in the proof from luk. . . is with a shamelesse fraud foisted in ( the church ) it being certain that at that time there was no catholick church diffused over the world , much lesse roman church at all , to whom those words of christ could be directed , but by [ you ] are meant either the seventy disciples , or the twelve apostles , as comparing , luk. . . with matth. . . makes it probable . nor doth christ say , he that heareth you heareth me , and he that despiseth you despiseth me in any case whatsoever , for then the high priests had heard christ when they heard judas ( who was one of the apostles ) offer and promise to sell christ for money , and peter when ●e denied christ : but then when the apostles or seventy spake the words and message of christ . in which case i grant the church of rome and pope , yea and bishop of jerusalem , corinth or any private christian , though but a woman , are to be heard and are infallible . so that this place is grossely abused for proof of the catholick roman churches , or oecumenical councils , or popes infallibility in their definitions of faith , till it be proved that they define what christ did before deliver . sect . iii. matth. . . or . john . . mark. . , . make nothing for h. t. his claim of the roman church , or popes or oecumenical councils infallibility . the second argument is this . no man can be damned for not believing an error in faith . but every man shall be damned for not believing the church , therefore no man can believe an error in faith by believing the church . the major is proved , because otherwise god were a tyrant in damning us for not believing a lye , which contradicts himself . the minor is as evident ; he that will not hear the church let him be to thee as an heathen and a publican : so matth. . . he that knoweth god heareth us , and he that heareth us not is not of god ; in this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error . john . . go ye preaching the gospel to all creatures , &c. he that believeth not shall be condemned , st. mark. . . answ . . the conclusion is not the same with h. t. his tenet , and so the proof is in the same manner faulty as in the first argument . . the minor is denied : nor doth any one of the texts alleged prove it or any thing like it , for , . the text matth. , or . is not as this author cites it [ be that will not hear the church ] as if it were an indefinite speech equipollent to this universal [ every man that will not hear the church ] without which h. t. proves not his minor , but thus [ but and if he hear not the church ] restraining it to the brother finning against his brother : and first , reproved singly . . before two or three witnesses . . of whom the church hath been told . . and he doth not obey the church . . the text speaks not at all of believing the church in a point of faith , but doing right to an injured brother . for the phrase of sinning against a brother , ver . . can neither be meant of heresie , or error in faith , no nor sinfulnesse in life , which is termed commonly ( though for the most part mistakingly ) a publick scandal , or scandalous practise , but only of a particular injury , such as he , against whom the sin was , might forgive , as is manifest from , ver . . and the parable following : whereas to forgive heresies or errors in faith or publick scandalous practises , is not in the power of a private brother . . that by [ the church ] is meant , the christian church is not certain , sith it is not as matth. . . [ my church ] but [ the church ] nor if it were , can it be understood either of the universal church diffused over all the world , sith it is impossible for every injured brother to tell his injury to it , not of a perfectly oecumenical council called out of the world ; for either there never was such a church , or if ever there were it hath not been in many ages together . h. t. confesseth , p. . . the second third and tenth ages produced no councils . nor if there were in every age or every year , could every injured brother addresse their complaints to them . and the same may be said of the pope , sometimes there hath been none for some years together , sometimes it hath been uncertain which was the true pope , sometimes by reason of persecutions and for other causes no accesse could be to him , sometimes the wronged brother could not travel to him , nor he hear his cause . nor is there any direction to go to his legate , or any assurance that he can commit his power to another , or that such a legate is infallible . undoubtedly by [ the church ] matth. . . must be meant such an assembly , whether regularly formed , or otherwise occasionally convening , which is of near accesse , and which is fit to hear the cause and to determin . and i must confesse that i cannot deprehend that by [ the church ] is meant the meer ecclesiastical authority , nor is here appointed that disciplin ecclesiastical , which is termed the power of the keyes , to excommunicate hereticks and scandalous livers in the church , but a direction to a wronged brother how to deal in case of particular injuries , the neglect of which the apostle paul blames so much in the corinthians , cor. . , , , , , , . . neither doth [ let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican ] import excommunication out of the church . for it is said , let him be to thee , not to the church , as a heathen or a publican , nor is any power at all therein given to the church to excommunicate : all that the church is to do , is to injoyn what the injurious brother should do , that excommunication which is here mentioned is appointed or permitted to the wronged brother . nor did the being a publican exclude out of the jewish assembly or service , the publican went up to the temple to pray , luke . . matthew a publican was a jew and had the priviledge of a jew though a publican : nor was a heathen , as such , damned , there were proselytes , as corn●lius , who were heathens , and yet were accepted with god : only the publicans and heathens were such as the jews would not have familiar arbitrary converse with , as luke . . & . . acts . . appears , and therefore the speech can have no other sense but this : if thy brother who wrongs thee will neither right thee after private rebuke , nor after rebuke before two or three witnesses , nor after the monition of the church , that is either that particular assembly of christians to which ye are joyned , or some other competent number of christian brethren fit to hear such differences , then mayst thou shun his society in such a manner as jews are wont to shun heathens and publicans , by not going in to them to eat , or inviting them , or other unnecessary society , that so they may know how evil their dealing is and be ashamed and amended . which is nothing to that ecclesiastical discipline or juridical excommunication which is at this day arrogantly claimed by popes even over emperours , and by other ecclesiastical prelates for breaking their canons : much lesse doth this text infer damnation to him that shall not hear the universal church , or oecumenical council , or roman pope . the other text , john . . is lesse to h. t. his purpose . for it speaks not a word of hearing the catholick roman chu●ch , or universal , diffused over all the world , or oecumenical council or roman pop● , but of hearing the apostles , and other teachers of the gospel opposite to false proph●●s , ver . . who denyed jesus christ to become in the flesh , and of hearing them , not in every thing , but in the doctrine of christs coming in the flesh . and in like sort , marke , . is a plain command to the apostles , not to the bishop of rome or an oecumenical council , or the universal church : for then the pope should be ●ound to leave his see , and the bishops in a council to be non resident , and go into all the world , and the apostles are bid preach , not popes decrees or councils canons , but the gospel of christ , and the threatning of damnation is not to him that shall not believe the popes decrees , or the determinations of an oecumenical council or universal church , but the gospel of christ , which reacheth not them who deny the popish doctrine of transubstantiation , purgatory , humane merits , worshipping imag●● , not eating flesh in lent , priests single life , and such other innovations as neither christ nor his apostles taught : but such as believe not the doctrine of jesus being the christ , and salvation by him alone . whence it is apparent to any that are not resolved to shut their eyes against manifest light , that none of these texts do prove the infallibility of the roman church , or oecumenical council or pope , but are impiously wrested to uphold the most cruel tyranny that ever was in the world . sect . iv. none of these texts matth. . . tim. . . matth. . . john . . john . . act. . . do prove the infallibility in points of faith of the catholick or roman church , or the pope or a general council approved by him . h. t. adds a third argument for the churches infallibil●ty thus : if christ be alwayes with his church , and have made her the pillar and firmament of truth , against which the gates of hell ( heresies ) shall not prevail , and given her the holy ghost to assist her to all truth , so that her definitions in an approved general council are the very dictates of the holy ghost , then is it impossible the church should erre in faith : but all this christ hath done for his church , therefore it is impossible the church should erre in faith . the sequel of the major is manifest by the very terms of the supposition : the minor is proved , go ye teaching all nations , &c. and behold i am with you all daies ( he is with her teaching ) st. matth. . . the house of god , which is the pillar and firmament of truth , tim. . . the gates of hell shall not prevail against it . st. matth. . . he will give you another paraclere that he may abide with you for ever , ●c . he shall teach you all things , and suggest to you all things whatsoever i shall say to you ( in all points of faith ) st. john . . he shall ●●ach you all truth ( no errors ) st. john . . it hath seemed good ( say the apostles in council ) to the holy ghost and to us , act. . . answ . this author still abuseth his reader by putting his conclusion otherwise then his tenet . for whereas his tenet was , that the roman catholick church is infallible ▪ he puts his conclusion thus , [ the church is infallible ] as if [ the church ] and [ the catholick church ] were all one , and [ the catholick ] and [ the roman ] were all one , and [ the church of christ ] and [ the visible church militant ] were the same : which are indeed fallacies , which easily take with silly or prejudiced papists , that take what is said of the church to be meant of the visible militant church , and what is said of the visible militant to be said of the catholick church , and by the catholick imagin the roman meant , and by the roman the pope . but to discover the vanity of this argument . . the sequel of the major is denied , nor is it manifest by the terms of the supposition . for christs presence is with every believer , and he hath made every believer a pillar and firmament of truth , and against every true believer the gates of hell ( heresies ) shall not prevail , and he hath given the holy ghost to every true believer to assist him to all truth as well as to the church , and his definitions are the very dictates of the holy ghost , when he defines according to scripture , and yet it is not impossible he should erre in faith . christ hath made promises of his presence and of his spirit , and his spirit is said to be in and with every true believer , as well as the church , rom. . , , . cor. . . cor. . . and . . gal. . ephes . . . cor. . . john , , , . and yet believers may erre in faith , rom. . , , . cor. . . gal. . . and . ● . . and therefore it is not true , which this author supposeth manifest . not is the minor tr●e or proved by the texts he brings . for the promise , matth. . is not to the church , but to the apostles and other teachers , who succeed them : nor is the promise made to them that they should teach no error in faith : but that teaching ( as h. t. speaks ) or as long as they teach the true faith , he would be with them by assisting and prospering them in their work . the words , tim. . may be meant of the mystery of godliness mentioned , v. . thus , the mystery of godliness is the pillar and firmament , ground or seat of truth , and without controver●ie great , which i do conceive after cameron and others to be the truest exposition , as the same apostle in other places gives such elogies to the great points of faith , tim. . . and . . and tim. . . and the conjunction 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and ver . . doth make it very probable . nor doth grotius his reason avoid it : for the mystery even according to this exposition is the subject not the predicate . others refer it to timo●hy , but then it should be in the accusative case . but let it be granted that it is meant of the church which is said , that it is the pillar and firmament of truth , yet it is certain from the very words , that it is meant of that church in which timothy was directed how to behave himself , which was the church of ephesus , as appears tim. . . not the church of rome , and therefore must be understood in such a sense as agrees to it : which the papists themselves will not say was infallible or could not erre in faith . and therefore they must yeild it to be meant either of what they were in duty to be , or what they were actually , thus they were such , as by profession and practice did hold forth , and maintain and uphold the truth in those parts : not that they held nothing but tenets , nor so held forth the truth , but that they might erre and decay in their holding out the truth . for it is certain they did so , rev. . . act. . , . the terms [ the pillar and firmament , or ground or seat of truth ] are but metaphors , and whereas there are these two things signified by hem . . the upholding of the truth , so as that otherwise it should fall . . the fixing of the truth there , so as that it should abide and be permanent there , doubtlesse the former sense cannot be true . for though god should have no church on earth or in heaven , no apostle , prophet , bishop , yet his truth would be upheld ; his word is for ever settled in heaven , psal . . . christ who is the truth , john . . abides for ever , and the spirit of truth remains for ever , and will uphold his truth . if it were as some of the romanists say , the church only abode in the virgin mary at christs death , or as others say , in the time of antichrist there shall be no sacrifice , nor ceremonies , nor religion , yet the gospel of christ shall be everlasting ; as the angel terms it , revel . . . therefore of necessity it must be understood in that sense in which it notes stability , permanency , fixednesse or abiding , and the sense is , the church is the company among whom the truth abides unshaken , in which sense revel . . . it is said , him that overcometh will i make a pillar in the temple of my god , and he shall go no more out . and so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used , cor. . . for stedfast , and cor. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , stedfast , unmoveable are made synonymous , and col. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , grounded and setled in the faith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not moved away from the hope . so that the meaning is no more but this , the church of the living god is not a tile which is often shaken and blown down with the winde , but a pillar that abides unshaken , and the seat or ground or basis of truth , where it abides being received and embraced by it . which is to be understood of the invisible church of true believers ; and though not of every truth , yet of the main truth of the gospel , as it is termed , gal. . . the word of truth , james . . the truth , john . . which is expressed in the next words , tim. . . from which he foretels an apostasie , tim. . . and cannot be meant of any truth whatsoever which may be in controversie . for it is certain no meer mortal man , nor all men , were ever so infallible . which being rightly understood makes nothing for infallibility in all points which the catholick roman church , oecumenical council , or pope , or all together shall define , as h. t. would have it . the next text , matth. . . is as little to his purpose . for it is not said against the roman church , much lesse it is said against an oecumenical council or the pope of rome , the gates of hell shall not prevail , but against my church , that is , christs wheresoever . . nor is it proved , that by the gates of hell are meant heresies as this author supposeth . the truth is , however by the modern use the term [ hell ] is appropriated almost to the place of the damned and the tormented there , yet the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] translated [ hell ] is either never or not many times used in the bible for that place or those persons , nor was of old the word [ hell ] appropriated to that place of torment , but meant of the grave or the state of the dead , in which sense it was meant of old that christ went into hell , that is for a time to abide among the dead , as the learned usher proves in his answer to the jesuits challenge , ch . . and the gates of hell are no more than the gates of death or the grave , as isa . . ▪ psal . . . &c. is meant . so that the meaning of matth. . . is no more but this , the gates of hell , or the grave , that is death , shall not so prevail against my church , but that i will raise it up at the last day to life eternal , as our lord christ speaks , john . . which being the genuine meaning , it is true onely of the church of the elect , not of the meer visible , nor of that is such a prevalency denied , but that they may erre in faith , however it be assured that it shall not erre in faith finally to perdition . the next text john . . is ill translated , [ shall suggest to you all things whatsoever i shall say to you ] the words being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , he shall minde you of all things which i have said to you : nor is this meant onely in points of faith , as this authour adds , without any reason in the text , that he might restrain it to them , in which he would have the church to be accounted infallible , but also in matters of practise ; and this is meant onely of the apostles , as the words [ which i have said to you ] and particularities expressed vers . , , . chap. . . chap. , , , . shew . and in like manner is the next text , john . . appropriate to the apostles , to whom the words were spoken . nor are the words restrained to matters of faith , but extended also to points of practise , and there is a promise of shewing them also things to come . which argues plainly , that it is not a promise to the whole church , or pope , or council , or every particular believer , sith it is certain that to none of these it is verified , they have not things to come shewed to them according to that promise , and therefore it must needs be impertinently alleged by h. t. to prove his minor. the last text acts . . h. t. himself confesseth was said by the apostles in council , not by peter onely , nor by a council without the apostles , much less by any bishop of one city as rome is , and therefore proves not any unerringness in any but the apostles , nor in them at all times in all points of faith , but onely their not erring in their determination at that time . so that his texts do none of them prove his minor. sect . v. there may be good assurance of the word of god and its meaning , and of our salvation without supposing the churches infallibility . h. t. adds , the consequence is confirmed , because were not the church infallible in things of faith , we could have no infallible assurance at this distance , what were the word of god , what not , or what is the true sense and meaning of any one book , or chapter in the whole bible , nor consequently of our salvation , since without faith it is impossible to please god , heb. . . answ . h. t. hath here vented a most poysonous and impious speech , which tends to ruine the foundation of christian faith , and to promote atheism , yea in seeking to promote the arrogant claim of the roman bishop he doth by his arguing quite pull it down . for if there be no infallible assurance without the churches infallibility in things of faith , what is the word of god , what not , nor what is the meaning of one book or chapter in the whole bible , then there is no certainty but from the churches testimony of the truth of christian religion , and that being questioned we have no way to convince an atheist , or jew , or ma●om●tan , who deny such in●allibility : nor hath the pope any way to prove his supremacy or transubstantiation to be certain points of faith , but by the churches infallibility , that is indeed his own saying , in which he that believes him upon no better ground is departed from faith in god to faith in a confes●edly sinfull , and oft times notoriously wicked man , and so makes not god's authority the formal mo●ive and object of his faith , as h. t. said pag. . falsly the romanists do . besides how injurious is it to god to make him to have delivered his minde so as none can understand it without the pope or a council approved by him , of whom , according to h. t. his doctrine , who saith , pag. . that sense cannot judge at all of substance though it be under sensible accidents , there is no certainty , whether they be men or not , if we cannot judge of substance by sense . surely christ did very ill to direct infidels to search the scriptures , john . and never to repair to the church to be resolved in points of faith , if h. t. say true . how much doth he abase the credit of the scripture , who makes it to depend on mens ( for such is the churches pretended infallibility ) report , and ascribes it to popes and councils , who do oft contradict themselves and one another , which is onely to be had from god and his word ? what is this but as in another case tertullian said of the roman senates decreeing who should be worshipped as god , god shall not be god unless man will , so gods word shall not be his word unless man will. which is so much the worse in h. t. who art. . ascribes that assurance to unwritten tradition ( of which there is no assurance but from men confessedly fallible , as shall be shewed art. . ) which he denies to be from scripture , as if the obscure tradition of unknown persons from age to age were more certain than the great written tradition received from apostles by the whole church . besides , how doth he reckon of all other besides popes and councils , as if they were all idiots and fools , that they can understand no chapter of the bible without the pope , who hath been sometimes altogether unlearned ? what blockheads would he have men think themselves after all their study of languages , and arts , and of the scripture , that yet they cannot be certain what is the true sense and meaning of matth. . acts . or any other chapter in the bible , unless the church , that is the pope , tell them ? why do not all their commentators , and preachers first ask the pope of the me●ning of the scripture afore they by writing or preaching take on them to expound it ? why doth not the pope forbid them to expound till they have consulted him ? will ●e permi● them to teach that of which they have no infallible assurance ? why doth he tie men to follow the consent of fathers , as pope pius the fourth in his bull did , if the fathers yield no infallible assurance of the true meaning of any chapter in the bible without the churches , that is , the popes or his councells infallibility ? how did it come to pass that the fathers chrysostome , hi●rome , &c. did so well expound the scriptures as that their consent must be the rule of modern exposition ? did they first consult the church , or the church them ? pope damasus i believe had more help from hierome to expound scripture by , than hierome from d●m●sus ? have the popes any better means to expound scripture by than the fathers ? or the fathers than other learned men in these days ? wherein did any of the fathers exceed cajetan , arias monta●us , and such learned romanists or any of all the popes after the apostles days in ability to open scripture ? would not such men as these secretly disdain and smile in scorn , if any should prefer any of the best expo●itions of popes before their own ? will the jansenians or molini●●s think either the late pope innocent or the present pope alexander more infallible in their e●positions than themselves ? i trow not ; so little is the pretended infallibility of the church esteemed , when it toucheth themselves , however they make a great noise of it against protestants , yea some papists have well preferred the expositions of later writers before the fathers , and councils , and popes , giving this for a reason , that later writers have had more help in that they have had their own abilities and diligence to boot for finding the meaning of scripture , besides the fathers writings , and may see farther than they did , as a childe set on a giants shoulder , as banner did fitly express it do not at this day the learned expositors reject the expositions of fathers , and popes , and councils ? doth not maldonat the jesuit expresly reject in his comment●ry on john . . the exposition of that verse by which pope innocent , augustine and many of the fathers following , held the giving the eucharist to infants necessary to their salvation , which the council of tren● it self doth condemn ? so sottish a conceit hath h. t. here vented , that doubtless none but the ignorant sort of popish proselytes can believe him in , if they do not resolve not to seem to see what they do see . but were it granted that the church were infallible , i would fain know how h. t. can demonstrate who or which is that church which is infallible , or give assurance at this distance from rome , that this or that point of faith is thus determined by that infallible church . will he make every priest , or legate , or register of the pope to be infallible ? if not , let him tell me how he is infallibly assured that pope innocent the third , or the lat●ran council did define transubstantiation , or pope leo the tenth and the last lateran council the popes supremacy . if he say by universal tradition , or the records which are kept and are to be seen , and the agreement of opposite parties , ( though in the points named there are none of these means which do give such assurance of those determinations as is given by them of the scriptures ) sure me thinks h. t. ( who makes such determinations to be assuredly theirs upon such or the like reasons of their credibility ) should yield that there is more assurance from these ( without the infallibility of the church ) of the holy scriptures , being gods word , and the true sense and meaning of it . will h. t. be more unbelieving than a jew who acknowledgeth the books of moses , the psalms , and prophets , to be gods word ? will he not allow that to a christian which the jew had , to wit , assur●nce infallible , from micah . . that the messias●hould ●hould be born at be●hlehem , without the churches infallibility ? will h. t. think he can make such men as arias montanus , or cardinal caj●tan , and other learned romanists believe that they are not certain of the gospel of matthew to be gods word , or of the true sense and meaning of the third , fourth , fifth , sixth , seventh chapters thereof , without the churches declaration ? did they gather their expositions out of popes decrees , canons of councils , or examine them by them ? does not he know that in many places those and other learned men have interpreted texts otherwise than popes and councils approved by him have expounded them ? do not they know that such an attempt would be but an exposing of popes and councils to contempt , and make their canon law appear ●idiculous ? what unmercifulness and carelesness of mens souls is there in popes , councils , churches , if they are infallible , that in the space of sixteen hundred years they have not given us such a commentary on the bible as may take away all doubts from inquiring christians about the true meaning of the scripture , and determine all controversies in points of faith ? sure it 's fitter work than to enrich their kindred , advance base sons , give audience to embassadours ▪ over-aw princes and emperours , subdue the holy land. about which popes and councils have wasted a world of blood and treasure , when perhaps one protestant or popish commentator hath profitably illustrated the whole bible . why doth h. t. with his collegues , if they believe what he saith of the infallibility of the church to be true , petition the pope to do this , or call a council , and at last together do it ? to what purpose should any else but popes and councils study the scripture , compare copies , revise translations , examine interpretation , if there be no assurance in points of faith of the meaning of the scripture , without the churches infallibility ? but alas ! how far from infallibility popes are , and of all men the unfittest to do any thing in this kinde , the shamefull disagreement between pope sixtus the fifth and clement the eighth their editions of the vulgar latin bible doth abundantly declare , as may be seen in dr. james his bellum papale ; whereby it may be perceived how miserably and perpetually the souls of christians must fluctuate and be tossed up and down , and at last drowned , if they have no assurance of the meaning of scripture , but from this pretended infallibility of the church , which is no better to stay a soul than an anchor of cork to stay a ship . i abhor therefore justly this blasphemous speech of h. t. whereby the souls of men must be brought to waver in faith , if they receive it , and not onely sinfull , but also the weakest and worst of men ( for such they confess many of the popes have been ) idolized by ascribing that to them which is proper onely to him who cannot be deceived , nor deceive . and i protest , that should the pope and his consistory , or general council , and all the churches of the world conspire together to say , that the books of moses , the prophets , the psalms , of the four evangelists , paul , james , peter , jude , and john , are not the word of god , yet i am assured not onely by tradition of the jews and christians , but also by the very confessions of adversaries , and chiefly by the matter of them , which shews it self to come from god , the spirit of god giving me a discerning understanding thereof , that they are the word of god , and that the meaning of them is in the main points of faith , as the articles of the creed express concerning one god and one lord , his incarnation , preaching , crucifying , death , resurrection , ascension , coming to judgement , the holy spirit , the church of god , forgiveness of sins by faith in christ , resurrection of the body , and life eternal : which i know by understanding the meaning of the words , and thereby am assured that neither is the popes supremacy , nor his and his councils infallibility , nor his power of granting absolutions , and indulgences by his bull , nor the transubstantiation of bread into christ's flesh , nor the worshipping of images , nor a purgatory fire after death in a part of hell , nor communion under one kinde , nor invocation of dead saints and holy angels , nor prayer in an unknown tongue , nor justification by works , nor good works meriting eternal life , of condignity taught in them . and if i did think i were to doubt of any of these assertions i should turn sceptick , and doubt whether there were a moses , or david , or solomon , or mahomet , whether i knew the meaning of their words , yea whether there be such a city as rome or trent , such a man as the pope , such a council as the tridentin , such canons as are said to be theirs , or such a creed as is said to be by pope pius the fourth required to be confessed by romanists , or that the meaning were as h. t. conceives ; in a word , i should begin to doubt whether i hear what i hear , should affirm any thing , make any confession of faith , but think my self to be in a dream when i write , talk , eat , drink , hear , or do any acts of a living waking man. as for assurance of our salvation , the denial of which h. t. counts an absurdity , i am glad to read it , and that thereby he gives some occasion to question whether he believes the doctrine of the trent council , sess . chap. . that no man can know by certainty of faith , which cannot be false , that he hath obtained the grace of god. but for my part , as i know that the doctrine of the romanists is inconsistent with it self , when they teach that the priests absolution and ministring sacraments doth give infallibly grace and remission of sins , and yet that a man cannot be certain with certainty of faith that he hat● obtained grace . so i am inf●llibly assured without any popes , or councils , or churches determination of my salvation through faith in christ jesus by the spirit of adoption , and hope to please god by faith in christ , though i reject popes , councils , churches , decrees , or canons , which are not from the holy scripture , but unwritten tradition or invention of men , many of them being most foolish and ridiculous toys and abuses of scripture , more like mahome●'s alcoran , than the oracles of god. sect . vi. neither can the church oblige men under pain of damnation to believe her definitions of faith , nor is there any such judicature as h. t. asserts to be ascribed to her : nor do any of the fathers cited by h. t. say it is , but the words of irenaeus , cyprian , lib. . epist . . august . con● . epist . fund . cap. . &c. are shewed not to be for it , but some of them plainly against it . h. t. hath one more argument for his delilah , the churches infallibility , which is his fourth and last , thus , the church hath a power from god to oblige all men under pain of damnation to believe her in her proposals and definitions of faith. but she could not have such a power from god unless she were infallible in her proposals and definitions of faith. therefore she is infallible in her proposals and definitions of faith. the major is proved by all those texts above cited in the first and second arguments , as also by the councils of all ages , which command all men under pain of damnation to believe and subscribe to her decrees and definitions of faith , which hath accordingly been done by the fathers and all true believers . the minor is proved by reason , because it were not consistent with the justice , mercy or veracity of god to give a fallible and erring judge such a power in things of that high consequence . answ . . the conclusion is still different from the tenet . . the major is denied , and it is denied that the texts cited did prove it , no● doth the practise of the councils putting anathema to their canons prove it . for , . it is not proved they did well in so doing , except when their definitions agree with the holy scriptures , and when they do so , they do not more then every believer may do , whom they will not say to be infallible . . nor have all the fathers or true believers subscribed to the decrees of councils and their definitions of faith : nor do the papists themselves subscribe to those they call general councils ; not to the chalcedon which gave the patriarch of constan●inople equal power with the roman in his province , and ascribed the popes dignity not to any grant of christ to peter , but to custome out of regard to rome as the imperial city ; not to the council of basil or constance , which made the council above the pope . but h. t. adds an argument for the churches supreme power of judicature . that is the supreme judge in every cause , who hath an absolute power to oblige all dissenters to an agreement , and from whom there can be no appeal in such a cause . but the catholick church hath an absolute power to oblige all that disagree in controverted points of faith , nor is there any appeal from her decision , therefore the catholick church is supreme judge in controverted points of faith . the major is manifest by induction in all courts of judicature ; the minor hath been proved above by the first , second , and fourth arguments . answ . it is denied that the minor hath been proved , or that there is any other judge besides the sentence of god in holy scripture , which can so oblige dissenters in those points . nor do a great part of papists themselves at this day , namely the french papists make such account of the roman church o● popes judgement , but that they do conceive they may , and sometimes have appealed from them to a general council . occham held that the pope was haereticabilis , that is , might be an heretick , some of them being suspected of heresie have been fain to acquit themselves to emperours by apologies , some of them have been condemned as hereticks by general councils , fathers , universitie of paris , gerson wrote a book de auferibilitate papae , and the french churches conceive their churches may be without a pope and well governed by a patriarch of their own . it is but a new and late invented doctrine of jesuits and other flatterers of popes , that the roman church , or pope , or a general council approved by him are infallible , nor is there a word in any of the fathers cited by h. t. to that purpose . the words of irenaeus l. . c. . are cited maimedly by h. t. they are entirely thus . for where the church is there is also the spirit , and where the spirit of god is , there is the church and all grace , but the spirit is truth . by which it may appear , that truth is ascribed to the church by reason of the spirit , and that by the church he means not only the roman , but any where the spirit of god is : and in the words before he sets down the truth he means , to wit , that if one god and salvation by christ , which he terms the constant preaching of the church on every side , and equally persevering having testimony from prophets , and from apostles , and from all disciples . by which it is manifest that he commends no other preaching of the church then is in the scriptures , not the definitions of any now existent church , or after church without the scriptures . the next words of irenaeus are not ( as here h. t. them● . . c. . there being not in my book so many chapters ) but l. . c. . and are alleged by h. t. art . . and answered by me before art . . sect . . the other words of irenaeus , the church shall be under no mans judgement , for to the church all things are known , in which is perfect faith of the father , and of all the dispensation of christ , and firme knowledge of the holy ghost , who teacheth all truth , i finde not any where as he cites them . in l. . there are not sixty two chapters , and in l. . c. . ( which i suspect by his former quotation he would have cited ) the words are thus . after he had said , ch . . such a disciple ( meaning who had read diligently the holy scripture which is with the presbyters in the church , with whom is the apostolical doctrine ) truely spiritual receiving the spirit of god , &c. judgeth indeed all men , but he himself is judged of none , in several following chapters sets down various hereticks whom he shall judge , and ch . . saith , he shall judge also all those who are without the truth , that is the church , but he himself is judged of none . for all things constant are known or manifest to him , both the entire faith in one god omnipotent from whom all things are , and in the son of god christ jesus our lord , and the dispositions of him , by which the son of god was made man ; the firm sentence which is in the spirit of god , who causeth the acknowledging of truth , who hath expounded the dispositions of the father and son according to which he was present with mankind as the father willeth . by which any one may perceive , that h. t. ( if these were the words he meant ) hath corruptly cited them , mangling them and perverting them to prove an infallibility and supreme judicature of the roman church , or pope for others ; which are meant of every true spiritual disciple and his private judgement for himself , and in the main points of faith , and according to and by means of the apostolical doctrine of the scriptures , which is the very doctrine of protestants concerning the judgement , which each christian may have and hath in points of faith , and the certainty of it according to the scriptures ; which while he follows he is judged of none , nor needs any ones judgement , popes or others , to define what he shall believe . the words of origen , that only is to be believed for truth which in nothing disagreeth from the tradition of the church . and in our understanding scripture , &c. we must not believe otherwise than the church of god hath by succession delivered to us , prefat . in lib. periarch . whether they be rightly cited i know not , having not the book to examine them by , and by his other citations , as by his citation of origen , art . . where the same words , as i conceive , are cited somewhat otherwise ( which are answered art . . sect . . before ) the words [ from the apostles ] being here left out , and his &c. here i suspect fraud . yet if the words be as he cites them they prove not what he brings them for : there being no restriction to the roman church , much lesse to the pope : nor is the tradition of the church said to be that which is unwritten , and other then is in the scriptures , and the faith which by succession the church is said to deliver , is not meant of any of those points , which the pope would obtrude on the church of god , and protestants reject , but in probability the points of faith which were in the apostles creed professed at baptism , which irenaeus , origen , tertullian , &c. were wont to hold forth against the hereticks of their times , and protestants do still avouch . the words of cyprian de unitate eccles . are not meant of the roman church , but of the church throughout the whole world ( as the words precedent shew ) and the freedom from adultery and the uncorruptednesse , and chastity of the church cannot be meant of every visible church as if it were free from error , but of the true spouse of christ : nor is the true spouse of christ free from error of any sort , but that which is in the main points of faith concerning the father , son and holy spirit , as the words following shew : nor is he said to be separated from the promises of the father , or not to have god for his father , who divides from the church of rome and hath not it for his mother : nor are all other churches said to be adulteresses , who hold not with the now roman church , but he who divides from the catholick church , nor hath it for his mother , of whom he had said , illius faetu●nascimur , illius lacte nutrimur , spiritu ●jus animamur , whence it appears that he meant the church to be his mother , who is born again with the same birth , baptism or faith , nourished by her milk , that is the word of the gospel , and animated by the same spirit . and of this it is granted , that whoever is so severed from the church of christ ; that is the multitude or number of believers throughout the world , who professe and are baptized into the common faith , and are nourished by the same gospel , and quickned by the same spirit , they are divided from god , and have not him for their father . but this proves not that he that is divided from the now roman church is divided from god. but there are other words of cyprian cited by him as found epist . . in mine edition at bafil . l. . epist . . as bellar. also cites them l. . de romano pontifice c. . which are thus set down by h. t. to peters chair and the principal church , infidelity or false faith cannot have access : in which he would insinuate , . that the roman church is the principal church . . that by reason of peters chair there , no error in faith could come to that church . but the words being rightly and fully set down , and the epistle being read throughout , it will appear that cyprian had no such meaning as this author would put upon him . the words are these . after these things ( which he had related before concerning the crimes of some excluded by him out of the church of carthage ) as yet over and above , a false bishop being constituted for themselves by hereticks , they dare saile and bring letters from schismaticks and profane persons to peters chair and the principal church , from whence sacerdotal unity arose , and not think them to be romans , whose faith the apostle declaring is praised , to whom perfidiousness cannot have accesse . i● which i grant the roman church is called the principal church from whence sacerdotal unity did arise , and the see of rome peters chair : the reason of which speech is plainly set down by cyprian himself in his book de simplicitate pr●latorum , or de unitate eccle●●ae in these words . the lord speaketh to peter , i , saith he , say to thee , that thou art peter , and upon this rock i will build my church , and the gates of hell shall not overcome it . i will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven , and what things thou shalt binde upon earth shall be bound also in the heavens , and what things thou shalt loose upon earth shall be also loosed in heaven . and to the same after his resurrection , he saith , feed my sheep . and although to all the apostles after his resurrection he bestowed equal power , and saith , as my father sent me i also send you , receive the holy ghost : if ye remit sins to any , they shall be remitted to him , if ye ●old them to any , they shall be held : yet that he might manifest unity he hath disposed by his authority the rise of the same unity beginning from one . verily the other apostles were also that which peter was , endued with equal allotment of honour and power , but the beginning comes from unity , that the church may be shewed to be one . and a little after , which unity we ought firmly to hold , and vindicate , chiefly bishops who are president in the church , that we may prove also bishoprick it self to be one and undivided . let no man deceive the fraternity with a lye , let no man corrupt the truth of faith with perfidious prevarication . bishoprick is one of which by each entirely a part is held . by which words it is manifest , that cyprian made the roman church the principal church , not because the bishop of rome was above any other in honour and power , or that peters chair was more infallible than other apostles chairs ; or that a supremacy over the whole church did belong to the pope of rome ( for he expressely saith , that the other apostles were the same that peter was , that they were endued with equal allotment or fellowship of honour and power , and that in solidum , wholly and entirely ( that is as much one as another ) each bishop held his part in the one bishoprick : ) but because he made the unity of episcopacy to have its original from christs grant to peter , matth. . . that all bishops might be as one , none arrogating more to himself than another . and that this was cyprians minde , appears , . by the words in his epistle to pope cornelius presently after the words which h. t. cites : where against the practise of those that sailed to rome to bring thither letters of complaint against cyprian , he saith , but what cause is there of their going and declaring their making a false bishop against the bishops ? for either that pleaseth then which they have done , and they persevere in their wickedness , or if it displeaseth them and they recede , they know whither they should return . for s●●h it is decreed by all us , and it is ●qual alike and just that every ones cause should be there heard , where the crime is admitted , and to several pastors a portion of the flock is ascribed , which each pastor should rule and govern , being to give account to the lord of his own act ; it is meet verily , that thos● over whom we are president should not run about , nor break the cohering concord of bishops by their subdolous and fallacious rashness , but there plead their cause where they may have both accusers , and witnesses of their own crime , unless to a few desperate and w●etched persons the authority of the bishops setled in africa seem less , who have already judged of them , and by the weight of their judgement have damned their conscience bound with the many snares of their sins . which words shew that cyprian denied the authority of the bishops of africa to he less th●n the bishop of rome , and that persons should appeal from them to rome ; but asserts , that they ought to stand to the judgement of their own bishops , and that a portion of the flock is given to each pastor , which he ought to rule and govern , and thereof must give account to the lord , not the whole to any one , no not to the bishop of rome ; and therefore he ought not to receive the letters and complaint of the divided party from cyprian , nor to take on him to ju●ge their cause , but to remit them to their own bishops . . it appears by the fact of cypri●n , who opposed st●phen bishop of rome in the point of rebaptizing the baptized by hereticks ( as his epistle to pompeius shews ) and joyned with firmi●●anus and other bishops of cappadocia , cilicia and galatia excommunicated by pope stephen , and so involved in the same censure , in which state he died without repentance for ought is known , and therefore conceived not the pope infallible , or his judge or himself subject to him : but counted stephen an usurper over his brethren by reason of his imposing his decree on others , and censure of dissenters . and for the words in the epistle to cornelius they are not as h. t. cites them , to peters chair and the principal church , infidelity or false faith cannot have access : but to the romans , meaning not only the bishop , but the rest of the church , and by perfidia there is meant not any infidelity or false faith whatsoever , but those perfidious persons and their treacherous action in breaking from cyprian : nor doth he say that perfidiousness could have access at no time , but not at that time , which he ascribes , not to the priviledge of the place , but their constancy in the faith heretofore praised by paul , and to the providence of cornelius their bishop , and their own vigilancy , as the words in the end of the epistle shew , although i know there your fraternity , to wit , being fenced by your providence , and also wary enough , by their own vigilancy , cannot be taken with the poysons of hereticks , nor deceived , and that so much the magisteries and divine precepts prevail with them , as the fear of god is in them , yet our over abundance of carefulness or charity hath perswaded us to write these things to you , being indeed not altogether out of fear of cornelius , of whom he takes notice in the beginning of the epistle . marvailing enough , when he observed by his letter that he was somewhat moved by the threats and terrors of them that came , and therefore doth earnestly press him to take courage and to withstand them . which being rightly understood , the speeches of cyprian concerning the roman constancy and the inaccessibleness of perfidiousness to them , appear only expressions of his confidence and good hopes , not of any certainty that it would be so , much less of any infallibility of their bishop or church ; and this he did to engage them to withstand the schismaticks , it being a great argument with persons to be constant to those who express their confiding in them and their expectation thereof . and therefore he would have his epistle read to the most flourishing clergy there presiding with cornelius , and the most holy and most ample common people or laity , that if any contagion of poysoned speech and pestiferous sowing had crept in , it might be all put off from the ears and breasts of the brethren , and the entire and sincere love of good men might be cleansed from all filth of heretical detraction : which shews that he conceived them liable to such contagion and pollution , and that he was not certain that they were then altogether free . all these things being considered , it will appear that these passages of cyprian are so far from proving the infallibility and supreme judicature and supremacy of the pope and church of rome , which h. t. asserts , that they prove the contrary . the words of lactantius l. . c. ult . that it is only the catholick church that hath the true worship of god , this is the well-spring of truth , the dwelling place of faith , &c. are true , but nothing to the purpose , it being a meer dream that the rom●n and catholick church are the same ; nor if they were , do they prove infallibility in all definitions of faith , or supreme judicature in controversies of faith , but the enjoying for themselves the true worship , truth and faith . the words of cyril of jerusalem , that the roman faith commanded by the apostles cannot be changed , l. . c. in apolog . cont . ruffinum , we subscribe to , who profess our ready reception of what faith the apostles commanded . the words of vincentius lyrinensis adv . hares . c. . are thus ( not as h. t. cites them ) in the antiquity of the church two things are vehemently and studiously to be observed , unto which they ought altogether to stick who will not be hereticks ; the first if any thing were anciently decreed by the authority of an universal council from all the priests of the catholick church : which is nothing to the later councils approved by the pope , nor doth prove that the ancient councils were infallible , much lesse that the church or pope of rome are infallible . nor are the words of augustin ( which i finde not l. . de bapt . c. ) i know by divine revelation that the spirit of truth teacheth it all truth , if they be as h. t. cites them , for his purpose . for if by [ it ] he means the church , it follows not he means the roman church , and if the spirit teach it all truth , it cannot be meant of all truth simply , nor at all times . but i finde these words l. . de bapt . contra donat. c. . in vain some , when they are overcome by reason , object to us custome , as if custome were greater then truth , or that were not to be followed in spirituals which is to the better revealed by the holy spirit . this is plainly true that reason and truth is to be put before custome . the words of augustin , epist . . c. . are not fully set down by h. t. they are thus , if the authority of divine scripture prescribe which of these ( speaking about offering and fasting ) is to be don● , it is not to be doubted that that is to be done which we read . in like manner also if any of these things the whole church through the world doth frequent . for to dispute whether we are so to do is of most insolent madness . where , . he means it of rites not determined in scripture , not in points of faith . . neither doth he count it madness to dispute against the use of the roman church ; yea he makes it a rule which he had from ambrose to fast as they did at millan when he was there , and as they did at rome when he was there , epist . . ad casul . no nor to dispute against the whole church of one age , but against the whole church in every age . other words of august . cont . epist . fundam . c. . are brought by h. t. and urged often by romanists for the asserting the authority of the church above the scripture , thus . and i my self would not believe the gospel , were it not that the authority of the church moves me to it . but the words are not thus rightly alleged . for , . the word [ catholick ] is left out , which shews he meant it not of the roman onely , and some words following seem to extend it to the church comprehending the apostles , or , if restrained to the church of that age , it is meant of those that pre●ched the gospel to him . . the words [ ego vero evangelio non crederem nisi me catholicae eccles●ae commoveret authoritas ] are not well rendred by h. t. as if they did declare his purpose for the future , or that he would not believe the gospel or any other reason , but the roman ▪ or present universal churches authority . for this had been an impious speech in this sense , and unfit for a holy man , much more for a bishop , and contrary to many passages of the same author ; as particularly , lib. confes . . c. . in which he saith , that god would not have given so excellent an authority to the scripture through all lands , unless he would that by it god should be believed . but either he used the imperfect tense for the praeterperfect after the african dialect , as he doth in a like speech in his book de beata vita , sic exarsi ut omnes illas vellem anchoras rumpere , nisi me nonnullorum ●ominum existimatio commoveret : where commoveret is used for commovisset , which is the same word here used , and so the sense is , i my self verily had not believed the gospel unless the authority of the catholick church had moved me , noting thereby the occasion of his first believing , not the sole reason or motive of his present believing , and to this sense the speeches , obt●mperavi dicentibus credite evangelio , ipsi evangeli● catholicis pr●edicantibus credidi , recte credidisti catholicis laudantibus evangelium , quibus prae ipientibus evangelio credidi , per ●os illi credideram ; which express the means by which he believed , and that was not authority of empire in the church by reason of their infallible function , and right to define what is to be believed , but the credit of their persons by reason of their holiness , honesty , wisdom , and such other acts of gods providence mentioned in the chapter before , which held him in the church . . or else he speaks upon supposition that the gospel is not believed by reason of its most sincere wisdom , unto the knowledge of which few spiritual men come in this life , then in that case nothing would move him to believe the gospel but the authority of the catholick church , unto which sense the words chap. . and the series of the dispute seem to lead , and bellarmine lib. . de notis eccles . cap. . to reconcile augustine's words in his dispute against donatists , that the church is not demonstrated by miracles , but by the scriptures ; and yet against manichaeus his epistle of the foundation , that the church is demonstrated by miracles , not by the scriptures , but the scriptures by the church , saith , that he speaks upon supposition , because the manichees did admit miracles , but deny the scriptures , which countenanceth this last sense . any of these ways which have their probabilities the speech may be right , but not for h. t. his purpose . certainly they ascribe no infallibility or supreme judicature in controversies of faith to the roman pope or church . if the speech be not understood in the last sense of not believing the gospel , but by the churches authority on supposition of the excluding the innate evidence of wisdom and truth therein , or if the second sense hold not , that he speaks of , what he had not done at first conversion , it it certain the first sense must be acknowledged , that he means it of the catholick church from the apostles commending it by the authority of their universal tradition : in other sense , specially that in which the papists allege it , it were an impious speech , and contrary to many other places in his works . sure he that reades his first , second , and third chapters of his second book of baptism against donatists , will finde him after cyprian fully against the ascribing to any bishop on earth supreme judicature over other bishops , or making any church or council infallible ; but asserting that the former fullest general councils may be mended by the later , and that there is no determination of any pope , or council , or church to be rested on as infallible in points of faith , but onely the holy scripture . after all this empty scribling of h. t. he yet adds , i now resume the pri●cipal argument , and retort it thus upon our adversaries , the catholick church is infallible in all her proposals and definitions of fai●h . but the protestant church ( and the like of all other sectaries ) is not infallible in her proposals or definitions of faith , therefore the protestant church is not the catholick church . the major hath been fully proved before . the minor must be granted by our adversaries , because they have no other way to excuse themselves from being heretick● in the revolt from our church , but by falsly pretending the whole church errs in faith , and taught idolatry and superstition for nine or ten hundred years together , till they began their blessed reformation : a most blasphemous evasion as hath been proved before ) by which they have excluded themselves from all possible assurance of true faith or salvation ; and therefore to arrogate infallibility to themselves , which they deny to the whole church , were a most frontless impudence . and then he adds his note , whom he means by his infallible church , which is set down in the first section of the answer to this article . answ . . understanding by [ the protestant church ] that church which hath been since the year . termed protestants from the protesting against the decree made at spires , anno . ( as sleidan lib. . com. reports ) the conclusion is granted : we yield the protestant church or churches are not the catholick church , but members of it , conceiving it would be indeed to hold the errour of donatists , if they should appropriate the title of the catholick church to themselves , or count all out of it that are not of that party , as the romanists do , who are in this successours to the donatists . but if by [ the protestant church ] be meant the whole number of them , who held the same faith in the fundamentals , which now the protestants hold , so it is the catholick church . . we deny that the protestants are justly termed sectaries , meaning by [ sectaries ] a party which hath departed from the primitive christian faith , or doth separate from the universal church as it is or was at any time in its integrity . . we deny the major to have been proved , understanding it of the universal church of this or any ages in which the apostles were not , and did not concur in the proposals and definitions of faith. . we grant the minor , but to the proof of it , we say it is utterly false , that we have no other way to acquit our selves from heresie , than by pretending the whole church erred in faith , and taught idolatry and superstition for nine or ten hundred years together till the reformation begun , . yea , we say , that the errours in faith , the idolatry and superstition we now accuse the roman church of , ● were many of them later than the time of gregory the great , even in the roman church , and were opposed more or less , at least some of them , by a considerable party of the church of christ , who were far better christians than the popes or roman clergy , which condemned and persecuted them as hereticks . from which crime we are able to acquit our selves other ways than h. t. saith we can , chiefly by shewing the agreement of our doctrine with the holy scripture and first churches after christ's ascension , and the orthodox teachers in them , as will appear in answer to his ninth article . it is a meer frontless impudence in him to charge us with any blasphemous evasion or excluding our selves from all possible assurance of faith or salvation , and to arrogate to himself as if he had proved either . the reformation which was begun . by luther , and after by zuinglius and others continued , hath been blessed by god , notwithstanding the persecutions of the papal party , and the differences among protestants . and the reformation sought in england since . hath been blessed , notwithstanding the troubles and differences fomented by the popish and prelatical parties , as the preaching of the gospel by the apostles and first preachers was , notwithstanding the persecutions , heresies , and schisms that followed it . notwithstanding what h. t. or any other romanist have said , the roman church and pope have not proved infallible , but may be proved , and have been , false and heretical , which is in part proved by the objections following . sect . vii . the objections from scripture and reason against the infallibility which h. t. ascribes to the church are made good against his answers . h. t. saith thus , objections from scripture and reason solved . object . all the israelites adored the golden ●alf , therefore the whole church erred . answ . moses and the levites did not , who were many thousands , exod. . numb . . therefore both those propositions are false . to which i reply , that whereas the romanists do allege to prove an universal bishop over the whole church , who by himself or with a council is an infallible judge of controversies of faith , gods ordinance of one high priest in israel , to whose judgement all must stand , deut. . as bellarmine lib. . de verbo dei , cap. . &c. doeth , this argument is retorted thus , if aaron and the people of israel were not infallible , then if there were such an universal bishop over christians as there was over the israelites , and such a council as the jewish synedrium , which were to be judge of controversies , as romanists would have , yet they might be fallible , sith the jewish high priest and council who were to be judge of controversies were not infallible , though they were as much privileged by papists own arguings , who infer their sovereign infallible judicature of controversies , which they ascribe to the pope and his council from the jewish high priest and his council . but aaron and the jewish council and church were not infallible ; for aaron and the council and church of the jews did erre , as is manifest by the making the golden calf , and the peoples motion and concurrence thereto . now though moses and the levites did not erre , yet the high priest and the people did , from whose privilege , and not from moses the civil magistrate , the infallible judicature of the pope as universal bishop , and the roman church catholick is fetcht , and therefore the answer avoids not the objection . h. t. adds , object . the jews council ●rred in condemning christ . answ . no wonder it was not perfectly oecumenical ; for christ himself was then head of the church on earth , and the highest authority was in him , not in the jews council ; and if the jews church could erre , it doth not follow , that the church of christ can ; for it was built ( as st. paul saith ) on better promises . i reply , . this answer which makes that council not perfectly o●cumenical , and therefore no wonder it erred , plainly intimates , that if a council be nor perfectly oecumenical , though it would be otherwise infallible , yet in that case it may erre . whence it will follow , unless the papists can prove their councils , which they say are approved by the pope to be perfectly oecumenical , that is , called out of the whole world , they are not infallible . now certain it is , that neither the trent , nor the lateran councils , nor those of constance , basil , florence , nor any other council for a thousand years last past have been so called : yea , sometimes one party hath kept a council in opposition to another , and pope against pope . and from the trent council , to which they adhere , not onely the greek , and asiatick , and african churches were wholly absent , but also the french for a time , and the council consisted in effect of none but italians , and the popes hirelings , some of whom were onely titular bishops , having never been at the places whereof they carried the titles , and these by the plurality of voices served the popes ends , but in nothing either seriously sought the truth , or reformation of corruption , as the history of the council of trent written by that intelligent man frier paul of v●nice hath cleared to the world. by which , were it not that papists are a sort of men that hood-wink themselves , they might see how meer a cheat that council was , and how justly it was refused by the french papists themselves unto this day . though christ were then head of the church , yet he did not exercise jurisdiction among the jews , not act but as prophet to his disciples , he did not deny subjection to the priests , he was circumcised the eighth day , as subject to the law of moses , presented at the temple with an offering , went up to the feasts , kept the passover , denied not the authority of the high priest , yea , directed the leper to offer to the priest for his cleansing , as moses bade him , and john notes that the high priest in that he was high priest that year prophesied of christ's death , john . . which are sufficient proofs , that if there were a privilege of infallibility in the high priest and council of the jews it was not taken away by christ's being on earth . but sure then they did erre , and therefore were not at all infallible in their ordinary determinations . . it follows , if the jews church could erre notwithstanding those passages in the old testament which the papists bring for the popes and roman churches infallibility from their infallibility , then the popes and roman churches infallibility is not well proved thence . . st. paul doth not say , the church of christ was built on better promises , than the church of the jews , but that the second covenant was made a law on better promises than the first , is said , heb. . . but those promises are set down , vers . , , . of that chapter , of which there is none concerning any , much less a greater degree of infallibility in any chief bishop on earth , oecumenical council or church of christians above the jewish high priest and council , and therefore this allegation doth no whit infringe the objection . h. t. adds , object . st. peter erred in faith when st. paul contradicted him to the face . answ . no , it was onely in a matter of fact or conversation , according to tertullian , lib. praescript . cap. . by withdrawing himself and refusing to eat with the gentiles for fear of the jews , gal. . . i reply , 't is true , tertullian saith , that peter 's fact was conversationis vitium non praedicationis , a vice of his conversation not of his preaching , and he shews wherein , that he preached not another god , or christ , or ●ope . but this doth not shew that peter erred not at all in any point of faith , nor that tertullian thought so : yea the very words of paul , gal. . . that he did not walk uprightly according to the truth of the gospel shew , that his practise did infer an opinion contrary to the truth of the gospel , and the words [ why compe●lest thou the gentiles to judaize ? ] which could be no otherwise than by suggesting to them that opinion that they must do so , shew , he taught the gentiles an errour in a point of faith contrary to the decree of the council , acts . it follows , object . christ blamed the incredulity of his disciples in not believing his resurrection , st. mark . . answ . he onely blamed their slowness in believing , not any errour in faith , or loss of faith in them , seeing they had it not before , for they understood not what christ had said to them of it as appears st. luke . & st. john . they did not know all points of faith at once , but by degrees . i reply , the question now is of infallibility not of apostasie , now it is certain they were not infallible , if they did actually erre , and it is certain they did erre , who did not believe christ to have been risen from the dead , which was sure an errour in a point of faith , and so much the greater in that it was foretold by christ himself that it should be , and told by women , that it was so , and of this number peter was one after he was termed peter , and according to the romanist's doctrine had been made prince of the apostles , and chief pastour of the universal church . now if peter did erre then in faith , much more may the popes of rome , who pretend to be his successours , and to derive their privileges from his grant , and consequently cannot pretend to any more than he had . again , object . every man is a liar . answ . in his own particular be it so , yet the holy ghost can and will teach the church all truth , he is no friend to truth that contradicts it : and albeit man of himself may erre , yet by the holy ghost he may be guided so that ●e erre not . i reply , the words that make every man a liar do speak this of man in contradistinction to god's being true , and thereby shew that this is made god's prerogative to be true without any errour , and that no meer man is such , and therefore not infallible , and consequently neither roman bishop , nor council , nor church infallible : nor doth the answer avoid it . for if they be every one a liar in his own particular , they must be so in a community or council , as if each person in his own particular be blinde the whole company must needs be so too . i grant , the holy ghost can and will teach the church of christ ( meaning the church of the elect ) all truth necessary to their salvation , and he is no friend to truth that contradicts it : but that he will teach any or all the visible churches , or their bishops , and teachers , or any one bishop , all truth in any point controverted , so as that they shall be infallible judges in determining controversies of faith , is more than yet is proved by h. t. or any other . and if man may of himself erre , though he may by the holy ghost be guided so that he erre not , then unless it may be known that in this or that definition of faith he is so guided by the holy ghost , no man can rest upon his definition as infallible . but it is not certain that either a council or pope , who are confessedly fallible of themselves , and therefore do implore the holy ghost's help , as knowing they may erre , are guided by the holy ghost that they may not erre , but by examining their definitions by the holy scripture . for there is no other way to know they have not erred , and consequently such a not erring being uncertain their definitions can at no time without proof from scripture ( which each person is to try for himself ) be a sufficient assurance to build a firm faith upon , which is confirmed by the next objection . object . try all things , hold fast that which is good , thess . . believe not every spirit , but try the spirits if they be from god , john . answ . try them by the churches authority and apostolical tradition , that is the touch-stone , not the dead letter , humane reason , or the private spirit . i reply , if christians are to try all things , then they are to try the churches authority , and therefore the churches authority can be no rule of trial . and indeed the precept had been ridiculous , if he had bid them try the churches definitions whether they were good or no , and the spirits whether of god by the churches authority , unless the churches authority were to be tried by something else , which were of it self credible . for when the church defines , for examples sake transubstantiation , to try this by the churches authority is no more but to enquire whether the church hath defined it , if we must rest on its authority without examining its proof , which would be all one as to say , try not at all what the church propounds , but believe it . but it is a vain rule till we know who are the church , by whose authority , and what is their authority by which we must try : especially considering it is not agreed among papists whether a pope or council jointly or severally be the church : even h. t. pag. . speaks as if he would fain take in all , but is doubtfull on which to fasten . nor are they agreed whether the pope or council be superiour , nor which council is approved , which reprobate , nor how far that which is approved is so . the rule is more uncertain when council is against council and pope against pope . the truth is , papists contrary to the apostles precept are not allowed by their doctrine to try what their church , that is , their pope and prelates teach them , but they are bound to believe them with an implicit assent without any trial or explicit knowledge . as for apostolical tradition , we like it well to try by it , if it be in truth and not in pretence onely apostolical tradition : in which case we are to take heed that we be not deceived by such sayings as pretend to be from the apostles , but are not . the apostle paul thess . . . tells us there were such pretensions in his days , of which he warns christians , and our lord christ commands revel . . . the angel of the church of ephesus in that he had tried some that said they were apostles and were not , and had found them liars . as for some of those things which ancients have called apostolical tradition the papists themselves do reject them , as the opinion of the millenaries , the keeping of easter , as the quartodeciman held , the giving the communion to infants , and many more ; and therefore all apostolical traditions so termed cannot be the rule of trial ; nor can they give us any sure notes by which we may distinguish genuine apostolical tradition unwritten from them that are supposititious . it is true , the oral tradition of the apostles , while they lived , and there was access to them might be fit to be a means to try spirits by : but the relation of irenaeus lib. . adv . haeres . cap. . about christ's age , and the censure given of papias in eusebius plainly shew how quickly such traditions came to be mistakes : and the very reason of john epist . . . doth take us off from trying by such tradition , because of the multitude of deceivers , and therefore requires that such spirits as pretended tradition should be tried by an unerring rule , which is the holy scripture . but h. t. takes up the blasphemous reproach which some impudent railing papists have heretofore given to the holy scripture , when it bids us not try by the dead letter , by which he means the scripture in contradistinction to unwritten tradition . which sure is not the language of the holy ghost , but of such impure mouths , as in love to their romish idols endeavour to disgrace the holy scripture . 't is true the law ingraven in stone is termed , cor. . . the killing letter , yet not of it self , for elsewhere , act. . . the law of moses is termed the living oracles , but by accident , in that it could not give life , gal , . . in that it was weak through the flesh , rom. . . it did kill , that is condemn men as guilty of sin , and so accursed by it , gal. . . but on the contrary the word of god is termed living , heb. . . the word of life , phil. . . and our lord christ bids the jews search the scriptures , because in them they did think they had eternal life , john . . and john . . these things are written that ye may believe that jesus is the christ the son of god , and believing ye might have life through his name . so that justly may h. t. with such other as before him have done the like , be charged with impiety in his disparagingly terming the holy scriptures , especially of the new testament , the dead letter , which paul calls the word of life . but it 's likely he meant that the scriptures cannot hear both parties , and so pronounce sentence in a point of controversie . if this be his meaning he might term the churches sentence printed or written in parchment , and apostolical tradition unwritten the dead letters , as well as the holy scriptures . for surely the authority of the church in an oecumenical council approved by the pope , suppose the trent council approved by pope pius the fourth , and the apostolical tradition doth no more hear or speak then the scripture . and it sure discovers an extream perversness and malignity of spirit in papists that refuse to be tried by scripture as being dead , and require a living judge to end controversies , when the council and pope and apostolical tradition they would try by are as much dead as the scripture : which there is reason to conceive they do as foreseeing that if their proselytes would try their doctrines by the scripture they could not stand . as for humane reason no protestant that i know makes that the rule by which he is to try the spirits , nor his own private spirit , if by it be meant his own councils . but we say that every man is to make use of his own reason or judgement of discretion , and the ability of his own intelligent spirit , as the instrument or means by which he is to try whether that doctrine which is propounded to him be according to holy scripture , and in this he doth no more then christ requires , luke . . yea , and why even of your selves judge ye not what is right ? without the use of which it is impossible for men to make trial as men . and this the papists themselves must allow men to do according to their own principles . for how else can they hear and believe the church , if they do not use their reason to know the church , and what it saith : they must make men blocks or brutes if they allow them not the use of reason to try by . when h. t. brings arguments from texts of scripture , councils , fathers , common sense and experience ( as his title page pretends ) would he not have men to use their reason to try whether he do it rightly ? would he have us go to a council approved by the pope to know whether his arguments be good ? what a meer mockery is this of men to write books , to teach people ; and yet not permit people to use humane reason to try their tenets whether they be according to scripture , council , fathers , common sense and experience , as if we must not only take an o●cumenical council approved by the pope , but also h. t. and every popish writer , whose book is licensed to be infallible ? if he write , is it not that we may read , and will he have us read and not judge , and can we judge without humane reason ? but it is the fashion of these men to write and speak in points of controversie , but not to permit their disciples , unless they judge them firm to them whatever they meet with to the contrary , to examine their adversaries tenents , arguments and answers by reading the scripture and such impartial writers as would discover their deceit , but either by some device or plain prohibition to deter them from searching after the truth , that they may rest on the popes and prelates determinations without examining . h. t. further adds . obj. the church may erre at least in points not fundamental . answ . all that god hath revealed is fundamental , at least for the formal motive of belief , to wit , the divine authority revealing ( though not always for the matter ) and if it be once sufficiently proposed to us by the church , as so revealed , we are then bound to believe it , so that their distinction of fundamentals and not fundamentals is idle : besides if the church be infallible in fundamentals , then protestants are schismaticks at least in revelting from her in points not fundamental , or necessary to salvation , and sin against charity by accusing us of idolatry . i reply . sure this exception is idle to argue the distinction of fundamental and not fundamental points of faith , which the users of it take from the matter , according to which he confesseth all is not fundamental that god revealeth to be idle , because all is fundamental which god revealeth at least for the formal motive of belief ; to wit , the divine authority revealing , in respect of which the authors , who use the distinction , acknowledge all fundamental likewise , as dr. potter , chillingworth and others , who make those articles of faith fundamental , which in respect of the matter are necessary to salvation to be explicitly known and believed by all : nor is it by them denied , but if it be sufficiently proposed to us by the church as so revealed , all that is revealed by god we are then bound to believe , otherwise we should deny gods infallibility and veracity . but we deny the bare determination of the church , that is a pope , o●cumenical council , or prelates to be a sufficient proposal without proof from scripture or other demonstration , that the revelation is divine . . it is an idle inference which he makes , that because protestants grant the church doth not erre in fundamentals ; therefore the roman church doth not erre or is infallible in fundamentals . for that which we grant of the church is meant of other churches besides the roman . . it is idle that he chargeth protestants with schism at least in revolting from the church for points not fundamental . for he cannot prove the protestants did or do revolt from the church , but from the roman court fashion , nor that they revolted till they were driven out by excommunication and cruel persecution , and could not enjoy communion without yeilding to sin , nor that they revolted at all for those errors , which are about points not fundamental ; but for the errors about points fundamental , to wit , one mediator , salvation by faith in him , not by our own works , &c. . it is idle that he imputes to the protestants uncharitableness for accusing papists of idolatry , when their profession and worship is openly idolatrous in their adoration of bread , images , wooden crosses , invocation of saints deceased , of angels with other innumerable practises used and maintained by them about crosses , reliques , feasts of saints , temples dedicated to them , vows , swearing , priests of them , of which their own liturgies , canons , writers are undoubted witnesses . . the framing of the protestants objection by h. t. against the infallibility of the pope or his council is idle , sith it is urged by protestants against them by shewing its errors even in fundamentals , that popes and councils approved by them have been heretical . . his answer is much more idle , in that it is not at all to the argument by him brought , which in form is this . that church which may erre in non-●●ndamentals is no infallible judge of controversies . but the roman church , whether pope or council by him approved may erre in non-fundamentals , ergo the roman church is no infallible judge of controversies . now in his answer , there is neither denial of major , minor , nor conclusion , but only a denial of the fit use of one term in the premises against which his own exception is but idle , as hath been shewed , yea and if there be no such distinction of fundamentals and non-fundamentals in points of faith the objection is more strong against them . for then if it be proved that the roman church errs in points of faith , it errs in fundamentals , if all points of faith be fundamental , which will prove not only the fallibility , but also the nullity of the roman church : and so h. t. will pull down what he endeavours to build up . but h. t. goes on thus . ob. those things only are fundamental which are absolutely necessary to salvation , and every man is bound explici●ly to know and believe . answ . if this were true , the bible or written word ( which you will have to be the onely rule of faith and judge of controversies ) were not a fundamental ; for faith depends not essentially on writing , but on hearing : many were good christians and saved before any of the new scripture was written or received among them , the first gospel being not written till seven or eight years after the death of christ . i reply , . this scribling is idle also , in which that is brought in as protestants objection against the infallible and supreme judicature of the roman church in controversies of faith , which is only an explication of one term they use in their dispute against the assertors of it . . it is idle that he saith they will have the bible or written word to be the only judge of controversies , when some of them , as chillingworth whom he after names , answ . to char. maint . part . . ch . . p. . deny it properly to be the judge of controversies , but make it only the rule of faith , or the rule to judge by , yea p. . h. t. himself chargeth this on chillingworth ( as if he had forgotten what he said , p. . ) that right reason is the only judge of controversies , and others , who term the bible the judge of controversies do not make it the only judge , but the spirit of god by it , and the teachers of the church and each believer for himself by it . ▪ it is idle again that he makes that an absurdity which they will not own , when chillingworth answ . to char. maint . part . . ch . . p. . and some others do grant that the bible or written word is not a fundamental point of faith in their sence , because if the matter of the bible should be believed by one that never saw or heard of a bible , yet he should have a true faith to salvation : and yet they make it necessary to be believed by all to whom it is made known . . it is yet more idle , that he gives that for a reason why it should be absurd to say the written word is not fundamental ; to wit , for faith depends not essentially on writing , but on hearing , which concludes it is not absurd . for if faith depend not essentially on writing , but on hearing , which concludes it is not absurd . for if faith depend not essentially on writing , then is the written word not fundamental , for that is not fundamental without which faith may be . . it is idle which he saith in opposing writing to hearing , whereas faith may be by both , and if he had spoken accurately , he should have said , not by seeing , but by hearing , or not by writing , but by speaking . . it is idle also and false , that faith depends essentially on hearing . for then it could never be that deaf men should believe for want of hearing . . that which he adds to confirm it is as idle . for though there were good christians afore the gospel was written , yet it being written upon supposition there were no other means but writing to beget faith , it would depend essentially on writing . . this discourse of h. t. overthrows himself and his party , for if faith depend essentially on hearing , not on writing , then they have not faith who read , except they hear the infallible judge , whether pope or council approved by him , nor is the point of faith sufficiently proposed , unlesse it be delivered viva voce , and if so , there is no papist hath faith , but he onely who hears the pope speak by word of mouth from his chair , or a council approved by him speak with audible voyce , the reading of the trent canons , or the popes bull is not sufficient to beget faith , much less the hearing a priest or prelate tell us their determination . by which it may appear , that if h. t. his dictates hold , then there is neither church nor faith among the greatest part of papists . . all this discourse is idle , because papists themselves do grant in effect the distinction he excepts against ; and his own words do in a manner confesse it is right , as the objectors explain it , and therefore in this is but a meer humour of quarrelling , as having a minde to say somewhat against mr. chillingworth and dr. potter , the lord falkland and dr. hammond , who have fully beaten them out of this their last hold of the infallibility of the roman church , which they would fain have fortified , being unable to keep the field in the several points of controversie between us and them . h. t. goes on thus ob. in gregory the greats time the discipline and doctrine of the church was altered and corrupted . ans . that cannot be , for from gregory the greats time to this day even the least substantial part of either hath not been lost , or changed as is visible in all the councils , liturgies , and constitutions of the church . i reply , this is so notoriouslly false , and the contrary so fully demonstrated even out of the confessions of popish writers themselves , and in the points of the popes supremacy , out of gregory himself , l. . epist . , , , . in the point of worshipping of images in his epistle to serenus , and in other points by bishop morton in his first book of the protestants appeal against brerely his apology , that were not this author resolved to out-face the most manifest verities against the now roman tenents , he would never have vented so grosse a falshood . the very confessions of popes , the decrees of reformation even in the trent council prove the contrary to what h. t. saith . claudius espentaeus com . in tim. c. . digres . . confesseth that toyes and lyes were in almost all their portesses . and if there were no more to prove this author an egregious lyar ; yet this is enough ( which is apparent to all the world ) that they have had councils opposing councils about the superiority of a pope above a council since the time of gregory the great , and even in their miffals and bibles many things have been changed and purged , clemens the eighth hath altered many things in sixtus the fifth his bible , and thereby shewed how corruptions have crept into their own authentick translation . h. t. adds . object . that which may happen to any one particular man or church may happen to all : but it may happen to any one particular man or church to erre in faith , therefore to all . answ . i distinguish the first proposition , that which may happen to one may happen to all in a divisive sense i grant , in a collective i deny , and granting the second proposition i deny the consequence ; for it proceeds from a divided to a compound sense , and is as equivocal as this . that which may happen to any one egge in the parish may happen to all . but it may happen to any one egge in the parish to go into your mouth at once , therefore it may happen to all the eggs in the parish to go into your mouth at once . i reply , i know not whose argument this is : dr. rainold in his thesis saith thus , but it may happen to every church which may happen to any ; certainly what happened to the church of jerusalem , which had much more ample promises , then ever the church of any city . as it is formed by this author i think the major is not universally true : but being formed thus , that error which may be in each man and church singly , and it 's not assured shall be removed from them met together , may happen to them so met . but error in faith may be in each man and church singly , and it 's not assured to be removed from them met together , therefore error in faith may happen to them so met . the major is i conceive without question . the minor consists of two parts . . that all men and churches singly or severally may erre in faith , i think will not be denied . that the popes as private doctors may erre in faith it 's not denyed , by the stiffest assertors of the popes infallibility . that any particular church also , even the roman , may erre it 's not denied , the infallibility , which h. t. would have to belong to it , is as catholick , and this must be when the whole church diffused over the world unanimously teach a point of faith , or it 's representative in a perfectly oecumenical council called out of the whole world and approved by the pope . that to none of these is such infallibility assured , which is proved in that there is no promise of such infallibility to any of them . the texts urged by h. t. in this article yeild not that promise : nor that text mat. . . for , . christ may be in the midst of men , and yet they not infallible . he walks in the midst of the churches , revel . . . yet they might and did erre in faith . so god hath promised inhabitation to every true believer , and walking with them , cor. . . and yet they were not infallible . . if infallibility were there promised , it was promised to two or three gathered in christs name , and so to a church neither collectively nor representatively catholick . . the promise is but conditional upon supposition of being gathered together in christs name , which whether any council be , it is uncertain to us . as for h. t. his distinction and application they seem to me to savour of unskilfulnesse in the meaning of logick terms . a proposition is true in a divided sense which is not true in a compound , when the predicate agrees to the subject considered as at different times upon an alteration ; as when it is said , the blind see , the deaf hear , the dumb speak , this is not true in a compound sense , that at the same time that persons are blind , deaf , dumb , they see , hear , speak , but in a divided sense . but the major proposition as set down in the objection , is understood of the same time without alteration . and so it is not true , that it proceeds from a divided to a compound sense . nor is there any consequence in the proposition , as he unskilfully speaks , but the proposition is a simple or categorical proposition . as for his similitude of eating eggs they may be kept for his breakfast as now being unseasonable . but he proceeds . object . the apostles were not each of them to depend on the decrees of the church . answ . true , the church was to depend on them as on the first masters and proposers of faith , who had each of them a peculiar prerogative of divine assistance and infallibility in matters of faith , yet were they each consonant to other in all their doctrines of faith , and whatever was taught by any of them was stedfastly believed by all . i reply , h. t. saith in his epistle to the reader , that it is agreed by all parties that christ our lord hath founded and built a church in his own blood , which was the onely m●stris of divine faith , and sole repository of all revealed truths at least for an age or two ; which if true , then the apostles were in that age to depend on their decrees . but here he eats his words , in the epistle the church was the sole mistris of divine faith , here the church was to depend on the apostles , as on the first masters and proposers of faith . how these hang together i understand not . that which he saith here of the apostles is very true understanding by masters , not lords but teachers . the church neither now nor in any age was mistris of faith , it is not the church in right sense , that is the teacher or propounder of divine truths , but the learner . it is the meer sophistry of papists to term the pope and prelates the church , and to call a hundred or two of bishops , some of them meer titulars without any diocesse , such as never knew what the office of a bishop was , nor ever preached the gospel to any people , the catholick church . the concession that the apostles had each of them a peculiar prerogative of divine assistance and infallibility in matters of faith proves , that this was not peters prerogative , and if it were a peculiar prerogative to each apostle , then it descends not to any successors , and so by this authors own words the infallibility of the pope or council is a meer figment . nor is infallibility to be sought from any , but christ and his apostles doctrin , who do still propound matters of divine faith to us in the holy scriptures . nor hath the church of rome any more priviledge of keeping or conveying to us the truths revealed by the apostles then that at jerusalem , antioch , ephesus , alexandria or any other which the apostles founded , and therefore ireneus , tertullian and such of the fathers as direct us to repair to the apostolick churches for establishment against hereticks direct us to other churches , where the apostles preached , besides the roman . it is further objected , the church hath now no new revelations , nor can ●he make now any new points of faith , therefore we are not bound to believe her definitions . h. t. answers , i grant the antecedent , but deny the consequence , for though she can make no new points , yet she can explicate the old , and render that clear , which was before obscure , and can define against new herefies . i reply , the grant of the antecedent is sufficient to prove , that if the church , as it is termed , teach any other points of faith then were revealed to the apostles , we are not bound to believe her definitions , and consequently she must prove her definitions by apostolical tradition , and not only say they are apostolical , ere we are bound to believe them , it being still to be heeded , which paul saith , gal. . . if he or an angel from heaven , or any man preach ( i may adde or believe ) any other gospel then what was preached by paul , and received by the galatians he is accursed , and consequently each person is to examine and judge for himself whether that which is preached or defined for him to believe by pope or council agree with the apostles gospel or no , and if the church can onely explicate the old , then an heresie cannot be made by a council , which was not before ; and if pope john the two and twenteth his tenet condemned in the council of constance were heresie after the council condemned it , it was so before , contrary to what bellarmin saith , l. . de rom ▪ pontif . c. . and it follows he that can best explicate the old and render it clear which was before obscure , hath the best title to infallibility , and if the church or pope have no new revelations , then he must explicate by study , and so not by prerogative of his chair , but by ability in languages , arts , and other knowledge , in which if he have lesse knowledge ( as certainly some if not all the popes for a thousand years have had , one of them , as alp●onsus a castro saith , not understanding grammer , and one of them being necessitated to substitute another to do divine offices for him , by reason of his ignorance in literature ) there is lesse reason to adhere to their explications then to others who have more skill therein ▪ arias montanus , vatablus and such other learned men are to be relied more upon for explications and definitions in points of faith then the pope or bishops , if they be such as were in the trent council , of whom it is manifest by frier pauls history of that council , that there were scarce any of them learned in the scriptures , especially in the main point of the gospel concerning justification by faith , then it is unjust to tye men to follow the fathers , who had lesse skill then others in interpreting scripture , as the learned of the roman party do often shew in their writings , then did innocent the third ill to make a new point of faith in defining transubstantiation , which was but an opinion before , as scotus and t●nstal have asserted , then it is monstrous tyranny beyond all that ever any tyrants before practised to burn to death men , women , children , old and young , bishops and noblemen for not holding it , then are the pop●s and popish party guilty of shedding a sea of blood in england , france , belgia , germany , italy , spain , poland and elsewhere , for denying transubstantiation , the popes supremacy , and such other new tenets as popes have thrust on the christian churches , then hath pope pius the fourth done wickedly in imposing on men a new creed , and popish doctors do ill in justifying it , and not opposing it . but is not this a mockery to say the church may not do it , and yet they do it , and h. t. avoucheth it ? what else are their tenents of receiving the eucharist under one kinde , of worshipping images , of purgatory , invocation of saints , indulgences , service in an unknown tongue , monastick vows with many more but new points of faith ? and is it not all one to make new points of faith , as by authority onely without any agreeablenesse to the meaning of the words , so to explicate the scriptures , as that they shall be wrested to maintain that which is not there taught , and that condemned as heresie which is not contrary to them ? rightly said chillingworth answ . to char. maint . part . . ch . . num . . tyranny may be established as well by a power of interpreting laws as by making them : and so doth the power of rome set up the greatest tyranny that ever was in the world by usurping this vast power of being an infallible interpreter of gods laws ( though in their prefaces to their corrected editions of their missals , and the vulgar latin translations of the bible they confesse they used the help of learned men , and one pope alter what a former did ) and judge of controversies from whom none may appeal , and all are bound in conscience to stand to his definitions . h. t. saith further . object . the spiritual man judgeth all things , cor. . . answ . by the rule of apostolical tradition i grant , by humane reason or the private spirit i deny , and such a spiritual man is in the church as a part in the whole , not out of it , with sectaries . i reply , it is true , the spiritual man judgeth all things by the rule of apostolical tradition , i mean that which is truly and confessedly apostolical in the holy scriptures , not by that unwritten tradition which papists falsly call apostolical . and it is true also that the spiritual man judgeth all things by humane reason not as the rule of faith , but as the organ or means of discerning , as the buyer judgeth whether he hath measure by the ell as the rule , and by the eye as the organ by which he compareth the thing bought and the ell together . and if by private spirit be meant nothing but his own ability to discern , the spiritual man judgeth by his private spirit , and so doth a papist , that judgeth by the rule of the councils definition , and popes approbation , judge what his priest suggests to him to be such by humane reason , and his private spirit . nor can it be otherwise , if the judging be his act , but it should be by humane reason , unless we imagine a man as a man to act without reason . however this is clear by his confession , that a spiritual man is not onely the pope , or the catholick church , but a part in the whole , and that he not onely receives all that the church propounds , but judgeth , and therefore doth not rest on the judgement of the church with a blinde assent , and that he is in the church nevertheless , and this supposeth that a spiritual man is not to presuppose the church , or pope , or prelate , or priest , infallible , but to examine what they say , and to judge for himself whether they speak right or not . h. t. proceeds thus . object . right reason is the onely judge of controversies , therefore every mans private reason must be judge for himself . answ . the antecedent i have sufficiently refuted , and i also deny the consequence , as the most gross and unreasonable assertion of all others , ( though mr. chillingsworth's chief ground ) which appears thus . i reply , no protestant that i know saith , right reason is the onely judge of controversies , and therefore there was no need of refuting it . nevertheless in what he hath said before about this point , he hath refuted nothing , except it be a sufficient refutation to say without any reason or proof for it , that we must not try all things by humane reason or the private spirit , which is a way of re●uting , fit enough for this scribler , though unfit for a disputer . . nor do i think any protestant makes that consequence , which is here set down ; whereas he a●cribes it to master chillingworth he had dealt honestly if he had quoted the place , that we might without reading a whole book have found it . if i mistake not , master chillingworth , chap. . part . . sect. . of his answer to charity maintained against knot , asserting a necessity of a personal judge in points of controversie concerning the christian faith , that the scripture was not , and therefore the church must be it , saith , scripture is not a judge of controversies , but a rule to judge them by , being understood of all those that are possible to be judged by scripture , and of those that arise among such as believe the scripture , that it is not necessary that all controversies should be decided , that in doubtfull things there is no necessity they should be determined , but that each should bear with other , and he is safe that useth means to finde the truth though he miss it , that fundamentals are plainly delivered in scripture , that the m●st unlearned may understand these by the translations of places on no side gainsaid , that each mans own reason is judge for himself , that there is no such personal judge appointed by god , as knot would have , that his reasons from the necessity of a personal judge in civil controversies hold not in this matter , that every mans particular reason is that by which he is to judge whether this or that doctrine be agreeable to scripture , that even according to the way of the papists the giving of the office of judicature to the church comes to confer it upon every particular man. for , . before any man believes the church infallible he must have reason to induce him to believe it so , else why do they set down arguments to prove it . . supposing they are to be guided by the church they must use their own particular reason to finde out which is the church , and to that end popish doctors give notes and marks whereby to discern it , which are to no end , if a christian must not use his reason to judge whether they be right or no. so that in effect this is mr. chillingworth 's argument , as i conceive it , there is neither a necessity of an infallible personal judge among men to determine all controversies in religion among christians , nor is any such appointed by god , but each is to try for himself what is taught , and even by popish writers own way he must use his particular reason to discern the validity of their proofs for the churches infallibility , and which is the church , which must be his guide by the marks of i● ▪ therefore it must of necessity be yielded , that every mans particular reason must be judge for himself . now this which h. t. unskilfully calls the consequence , it being the consequent onely , is no unreasonable much less gross assertion , and may very well be mr. chillingworth 's ground in answering knot , notwithstanding that which here h. t. produceth to the contrary . first , saith h. t. as contradicting the word of god , wherein we are taught , that the things which are of god , no man knows but the spirit of god , cor. . . no man can say our lord jesus ( with true faith ) but in the holy ghost , cor. . . by which grace we are saved through faith , and that not of our selves , for it is the gift of god , ephes . . . we are not sufficient to think any good thing our selves as of selves , but our sufficiency is from god , cor. . . we must captivate our understanding to the obedience of faith . i reply , mr. chillingworth's tenet being rightly understood contradicts none of these texts . for , . when he saith , every mans private reason is to judge for himself , he means whether this or that be the meaning of the scriptures , and whether that which some say is revealed in scripture be so or not , so that the judging which he asserts is of things revealed by the words wherein it is revealed , not a finding out what is not revealed . but cor. . speaks of a knowledge of invention by search into the things without revelation , a knowledge of invention , not of discretion , as the words vers . . shew , but god hath revealed them to us by his spirit , for the spirit searcheth all things , even the deep things of god. now mr. chillingworth ( so far as i discern ) did never assert , that every mans private reason by its own search could ever finde out the mystery of the gospel , had not the spirit revealed them to the apostles , and they to us , but that each mans private reason since the apostles have revealed them in their writings may judge whether that which one teacher saith is the apostles meaning , be truer than what another saith , he makes reason not the judge of the spirits revelation , but of mens interpretation and inference . when mr. chillingworth makes each particular mans reason or his private spirit , the judge for himself , he means right reason , not every fancy which hath no proof , and that reason which he calls right reason must be rectified by the spirit of god and his influx upon the understanding , and so the text cor. . . is not against mr. chillingworth . . when he means that every private mans reason or private spirit is a judge to each man , he conceives ( as the matter of his discourse lead him to speak ) this judgement to be onely of the meaning of the speech , wherein the things revealed are made known , whence comes a a speculative notional knowledge , upon which a bare dogmatical faith follows , but he asserted not right reason rectified by common influx of the spirit , which understands onely the true meaning of such a text or the truth of such a proposition , to be sufficient without a special work of the spirit of god enabling a man to see the beauty , worth , goodness of the things thus believed above any other thing propounded to be chosen , to beget an affective practical knowledge , which begets faith of adherence , of which cor. . . ephes . . cor. . . & . . are to be understood . so that mr. chillingworth's assertion rightly understood doth well consist with these scriptures , it being no whit contradictory to these speeches , that no man can know by his invention the mystery hid in god but by the revelation of the spirit , and yet when it is revealed each mans private reason may judge of the meaning of the scriptures in which it is revealed , and whose doctrine is most agreeable to those scriptures , and though no man can fiducially and electively say , jesus is the lord but by the holy ghost , yet without the sanctifying and renewing or indwelling of god's spirit a person may by his private reason understand the meaning of this speech , jesus is the lord , and assent to it upon credible motives with a bare dogmatical faith . and though saving faith be the spetial gift of god to his elect , yet in working faith god useth mans reason to understand what he is to believe , and to judge it to be true , and as h. t. saith here , p. . the discourse and approbation of reason is always a previous and necessary condition to our deliberate and rational acts of faith , and the very acts themselves , are acts of reason . and though we are not of our selves sufficient to think any good thing , yet our selves do think good things , and by reason rectified by god's spirit do judge them to be good . and though we are to captivate our understanding to the obedience of faith , yet that obedience of faith to which our understanding is captivated is by the assent of the understanding upon the apprehensions which our reason hath of the good of that we assent to , and that which we obey . but saith h. t. secondly , because divine revelations are not to be admitted or rejected for their seeming consonancy or repugnance to every mans private reason , but for the authority of the church proposing as the immediate motive , and the authority of god revealing as the highest motive of our faith into which it is ultimately resolved , nor can any thing be more rational than to captivate and even renounce private reason , where god the authour of reason commands it . i reply , i doubt not but mr. chillingworth would have said so too , and have counted it an injury done to him to suggest it ( as h. t. seems to do ) to any as if he meant otherwise , provided that by the authority of the church proposing be meant , not the pretended infallible authority of the church or prelates of it , but either the infallible authority of the primitive church comprehending the apostles , or the probable and credible authority of the present church or teachers in it . but it is likely h. t. meant it of the infallible authority of the present church or prelates of it , which is not yet proved , and till it be mr. chillingworth's assertion is not overthrown . h. t. adds , thirdly , because if every mans private reason is to judge for himself in matters of religion , then all the heresies that ever yet were in the world were good and sound doctrines ; for there was never any sect of hereticks who did not pretend both to reason and scripture for their tenets ( how damnable soever ) and some of them such as were unaswerable by humane reason , setting aside the churches authority and apostolical tradition : for who can prove by private reason or by all the reason of man against the arians , that a spiritual and indivisible substance ( such as god is ) could beget a natural son of himself without a mother ? or against the sabellians and trinitarians that the same indivisible essence or divine nature can be at once in three distinct persons , the father , the son , and the holy ghost ? or against nestor and eutiches , that one person can subsist in two different natures , the divine and humane in christ , which notwithstanding are high fundamentals in christianity . in all these and many others private reason must either bend the knee and be captivate to faith , or become atheism . i reply , i conceive mr. chillingworth would have said so too , to wit , that private reason must bend the knee , and be captivate to faith in points revealed , though it cannot comprehend how thing revealed should be so , and yet his assertion hold , that each ones private reason is to judge these to be matters of faith ; and it will judge them to be so by the evidence it hath , that these are divine revelations , which right reason knows to be so from the agreement with the scriptures without the present or late churches authority or unwritten traditions , though termed apostolical . and those tenents which a private mans reason findes to be agreeable to holy scripture , though the whole church of this or former ages since the apostles days should judge them heresie , and the nicene or any other council condemn them , yet is that person to hold them as truth , provided he do use his reason aright to discover the truth . and though it be that councils may be and have been usefull , when good choice hath been made of persons and undue practises to mis-lead and over-aw them have been removed , yet as nazianzen in his five and fiftieth epistle ad procopium complained , that he knew no good issue of them , so he that shall examine the cariage of things in councils , even the best of them since the apostles days will finde reason not to take any thing from them on trust meerly by reason of their authority , and for the councils which have been above a thousand years by reason of the activity and prevalency of factions , and the unlearnedness of most of the bishops in them will find more reason to be jealous of what councils have determined , them to acquiesce in them . nor will it follow , that if this judgement be allowed to every private man , then all or any heresies whatsoever have been good and sound doctrine , but that those who have pretended reason and scripture have abused both . nor is h. t. his reason of force , because hereticks pretend to reason and scripture , therefore every one is not to judge for himself , and all heresies were sound doctrine , any more than than this , cavillers pretend law and reason , therefore judges that use their knowledge in the law , and their reason in passing sentence do justifie cavillers , or determin no better then cavillers . were the churches authority infallible , hereticks might and did pretend to it's authority , and apostolick tradition , and therefore notwithstanding these , yet heresie may be taken for sound doctrine as well as if private reason be made a judge for each ones self : yea many heresies have alledged unwritten tradition , and have had some council or other perhaps more and more numerous to patronize them then the orthodox : so that i may say , setting aside the holy scripture ( which is now the rule by which to determine what is error , what not ) neither the churches authority , nor unwritten tradition can prove a point to be heresie or extirpate it , but rather propagate and establish error , as by experience is manifest , there being never more heresies established and propagated by any one , or more private mens following their reason , then have been by the popes and councils supposed to be oecumenical and infallible , nor is there any greater cause of erring then the confidence of infallibility , nor any error so fast rooted as that which is decreed by men that will confesse no error . as for those heresies which he reckons as unanswerable by humane reason , if he mean they are unanswerable by humane reason , how or in what manner the things opposed by them are , it is granted ; but of this mr. chillingworth doth not make humane reason judge : if any humane reason cannot comprehend how a thing should be , nor can answer all objections , yet if it judge that god hath revealed it is so , it is to believe it , even as mary was to believe her having a son though she knew not how , luk. . . that which each mans reason is to judge , is not how a thing can be which god hath revealed is or shall be , but whether it be so revealed , and this he is to do not by a blind assent to what the church or his teachers say , but by searching ( as the beraeans did act. . . with gods approbation even when paul preached to them ) the scriptures whether they say right . and if the scripture say the contrary to what those named hereticks say , then are their tenents to be rejected , of which each persons reason is to judge for himself he being to be saved or damned according to his own faith : if not , the determination of councils against it is not to be received . and this manner of judging by reason , will neither promote herefie , nor atheism , but on the contrary , if the popes , councils , churches determination be counted infallible , it will perpetuate an error if once received , as too much woful experience shews in the roman papacy , wherein the error of transubstantiation though it be such as is so contrary to scripture , reason , sense , fathers , that a man unprejudiced would think them meer mad men , or phrenetick persons who hold it , yet it is by papists maintained ( i dare hardly say , by the learned believed ) most obstinately and furiously to this day . finally , saith h. t. because if private reason were the onely judge of controversies , it would evidently follow the general councils of all former ages ( which have commanded all persons under pain of damnation to obey their definitions and submit to their decrees ) were the most tyrannical and unjust assemblies that ever were , in usurping such a power over mens consciences , and consequently , that there neither is nor ever was any such thing on earth as a church ( or obliging guide in matters of faith ) and church government , i reply , though mr. chillingworth say not private reason to be the onely judge of controversies , nor denies the church or council to be judge of controversies , but only the infallibility of them ; yet , if he did say either , neither of these things would follow which h. t. makes consequent thereon . for notwithstanding such saying he might deem councils to have followed scripture , and therefore not unjust in those commands , and that there was a church and church government obliging men in matters of faith though not by vertue of their own authority , yet by vertue of gods revelation in the holy scriptures . neverthelesse ( if i may be allowed to speak my judgement freely ) i do think that if not all , yet most of the councils termed general have been for more then one hundred years too unjust and tyrannical in their commands , usurping the words of the synod at jerusalem , act. . . too arrogantly , as if their authority were equal to the apostles , and imposing on mens consciences burdens too intolerable , and that this hath been a most pernicious engine of satan to cause divisions and mischiefs in the church of christ . and certainly if any have followed humane reason and a private spirit in deciding controversies of faith , and judging matters of religion they have been popes , and the councils approved by popes , who do almost in every thing , in some things expressely , forsake the scripture , and adhere to their own reason in their canons and decrees : and papists who receive their determinations do forsake the guidance of gods spirit and follow humane reason and a private spirit . h. t , saith further . ob. your therefore believe the church to be infallible ▪ and whatever else you believe , because you judge it reasonable to believe it , and your very act of faith it self is an act of reason : therefore reason is the only judge of controversies . answ . the discourse and approbation of reason is alwayes a previous and necessary condition to our deliberate and rational acts of faith , and the very acts themselves are acts of reason , not discoursing but simply assenting : all this i grant , yes i deny your consequence , because our acts of faith are not ultimately resolved into private reason ( which faith often is inforced to captivate ) but into the authority of god revealing , and the church proposing . i believe it ( saith tertullian ) because it is impossible ( viz. to humane reason . ) i reply , . chillingworth makes not reason the only judge of controversies , nor any protestant , therefore the conclusion is ill fathered on them . . the reason of h. t. his denial of the consequence is insufficient . for it supposeth the consequence to imply , that our acts of faith are ultimately resolved into private reason , and this private reason judging that onely to be true , of which it conceives how it is possible . but the truth is , they that make reason the judge of controversies neither resolve ultimately their acts of faith into private reason , neither do they conceive they have reason to believe onely what they conceive how it is possible to humane reason , but resolve their faith into gods authority as the formal and ultimate reason of their believing , and make their reason onely the means or instrument by which they finde that god hath revealed that which they believe , not excluding their teachers credit , and churches example as a fit motive to hearken to it as a thing credible . which opinion is confirmed by this authors own words , making faith an act of reason , and discourse and approbation of reason alwayes a previous and necessary condition to it , and therefore in all acts of faith , even when it rests on the churches authority , yet eachmans private reason is the judge for himself discerning in controversies why he is to believe one and not another ; all the difference is , the papist thinks he hath reason to believe transubstantiation , popes supremacy , &c. because he takes the church of rome or pope to be infallible . the protestant doth not believe them , because the scripture doth not say thus , which alone he takes for an infallible rule to judge by in such controversies . whether papists faith be ultimately resolved into the authority of god revealing hath been before considered a little and will more in that which follows . to tertullians words i can return no answer till i know where to finde them . as they are here cited they seem nor right . yet again saith h. t. ob. there is no apostolical tradition for the churches infallibility . answ . yes a more universal one , then for the canon of the scripture it self : ( which notwithstanding you believe on that score if at all ) for there is not any one book either of the old or new testament , which hath not been rejected by some heretick or other : if therefore it be a sufficient proof of an universal tradition for the whole canon of scripture , that some one or two general councils have set down the number and names of all the books of scripture , though not without some variety , and that the fathers have given testimony to them , some to some books , some to others , but few to all ; and that the church in after ages hath accepted them for such , how much more universal is the tradition for the churches infallibility , which is virtually decided and attested by the anathema's and definitions of all the general councils that ever were , condemning all who did not humbly obey , and subscribe to them , every decision being attested by all the fathers ( no one contradicting or condemning the stile ) and most unanimously accepted by the whole church of after ages . i reply , the speech of h. t. here , that there is a more universal apostolical tradition for the churches , that is not only the church diffused over all the world unanimously teaching , but also the church represented in a council perfectly oecumenical ( that is to say , call'd out of the whole world and approved by the pope ) it's infallibility in definitions of faith then for the canon of the scriptures it self , is so monstrously false , and so pernicious , as tending to the undermining of the fabrick of christian religion , that it shews an impudent face and an impious heart in the assertor . for , . the tradition of the canon of the old testament is by the whole nation of the jews from moses to christ , and from christ and his apostles , who have testified that to them were committed the oracles of god , rom. . , . and this witnessed by the jews unto the death , and by the complement and events verifying it . and though it be , that some hereticks have been adversaries to the law and prophets , yet scarce any but such as have been little better then phrenetick , have denied it to be divine , however they have conceived them not binding . and for the canon of the new testament , though some parts have been a little while somewhat doubted of in the second and third ages by some few , yet the rest have had universal and undoubted tradition from the apostles and evangelists , and primitive teachers , who witnessed the truth of the doctrine by many evident undeniable divine miracles , and by their martyrdome , by which also in after ages many of the fathers and other christians gave testimony to it , and since the churches greek and latin , protestant and popish heretical and orthodox in asia , africa , europe have attested it as divine . but for the churches infalibility in that sense , in which this author means it , how little hath been brought appears by the answer here made , and that much may be said against it will appear by that which follows . yea i dare bodly say , that ( as h. t. holds it ) no one council or father of esteeme held the churches infallibility in the first thousand years from christs incarnation , and i think i may say for half a thousand more , but many not onely of those who are reckoned for hereticks by romanists , but also such as have been judged catholicks have opposed it in the second and third ages , yea whole nations , emperors , kings , and states have opposed the definitions , which the so termed generals councils approved by the pope have made , and many learned men have written against it , none died for it in that time , nor were any miracles wrought to confirme it . nor hath the questioning of some few of the books of scripture , either by some hereticks or a few fathers for a while abated the credit of those parcels questioned in the churches of christ throughout the world . so that if it were true , that we believed the canon ( as i know nothing but uncharitablenesse can make this author question whether we do ) onely on that score ( as we do not ) yet we have far more abundant tradition for it then is for the churches imagined infallibility . . i say the anathema's and definitions are neither formal nor virtual proofs of an universal tradition or attestation to the churches infallibility . for , . p. . he confesseth in the second and third ages were no councils , nor in the tenth , in which any controversies of moment were decided , p. . and therefore here this universal tradition fails . . those that were not approved by the popes , but rejected by them , and those which were not oecumenical have not used such anathema's , and yet h. t. thinks not his infallibility proved thereby . . that they did well in using such anathema's , or the church in submitting to them may be doubted . . but if that be yeilded that they did well , yet surely they did not set their anathema's to their decisions , because they took themselves to be infallible either by their own authority or the popes approbation ; yea it is certain the councils did set to their anathema's , when they opposed the popes and deposed them , and defined themselves above him . and even the council of trent put their anathema's to their definitions afore they were tendred to the pope , or pius the fourth had approved them : but they took it they might set their anathema to their definitions , because they thought them right , though not themselves infallible in them . and thus may any particular person pronounce anathema , as paul did , gal. . , . and yet not be thereby demonstrated infallible . so vain is this no better then blasphemous speech of h. t. which will further appear by examining what follows . sect . viii . the objections of protestants against the churches infallibility from fathers and councils are vindicated from the answers of h. t. he saith . objections from fathers and councils resolved . ob. the council of fanckford condemned the second nicene council for giving soveraign honour to images , as you may see in the preface to the carolin books . answ . the second nicene council allows no such honour to images , but onely a salutation or honorary worship , not true latria ( or soveraign honour ) which it defines to be due to god onely , act. . . the carolin books are of no authority , they say that council was not approved by the pope , which is false , and that it was held at constantinople in bythinia , whereas constantinople is in thracia . i reply , that honour to images , which papists will not have to be termed latria or soveraign honour proper to god ; the scripture makes soveraign honour to be given to god onely in a religious respect ; to wit , bowing down the body to them , kissing , burning incense , offering gifts , holding up the hands , lifting up the eyes , praying to them , which the scripture appropriates to god , and denies to images , matth. . . revel . . . kings . . exod. . , . nor doth the scripture make such distinction of latria and dulia , but that it forbids such worship to be given to any image of an invisible being , which shews subjection to them , or dependence on them ; for such worship is religious , and is an acknowledgement of a deity in them . the scripture doth no where appropriate latriam or the soveraign honour or worship due to god onely to offering of sacrifice , but that it also condemns as idolatrous the other acts named , if they be not given to magistrates or superiors out of civil respects , but to images , angels , or saints alive or deceased in a religious respect as superiors to us to whom we are subject and on whom we depend for help and succour . and therefore this plaister of h. t. is too narrow to cover the foul ulcer that came from the false synod called the second nicene . for what is that salutation or honorary worship , h. t. saith the second council of nice allows to images ? is it not bowing down to them , which papists themselves call adoration , and difference from veneration , which consists onely in a decent usage without defiling , defacing , or such usage as shews hatred and contempt of the thing or person represented , such as is done to monuments or treasure laid up to be kept , but not as things set up higher then our selves to be worshipped , for that is plain idolatry , and the very same with the gentiles adoration of their idols ? now this did the second nicene council require to be given to images , ut erigerentur & adorarentur , &c. yea if bellarm. lib. . de imagin , sanct. c. . say true , that council would have them adored not only by accident , that is because joyned with the thing adored , but also of themselves as that , in which is the reason of veneration , nor onely improperly that is in the place of another , so as that the proper term of the adoration should not be the image , but christ himself , but properly so as that the image be honoured ratione sui ipsius in respect of it self , as he explains his distinctions , ch . . and this adoration it was conceived by charles the great , and the synod of francfurt that nicene council intended to give to images , and was refuted by the four books set forth by charles the greats authority yet to be seen , and condemned by the authority of the synod of francfurt , anno . at which were present the popes legats and did approve of the synods determination , or dissembled the popes opinion . i finde not that the carolin books say , that the second nicene council was not approved by the pope ; if they did , and that they were deprived , it makes the more against the infallibility of councils approved by the pope , which those three hundred fathers acknowledged not , who met at francfurt . the mistake of the country wherein nice was , is not such , as bellarmin or baronius conceive derogates from the truth of the thing , testified by so many authors of credit , all the ancient historians nearest that time , besides hin●marus agobardus , and after some english writers as hoveden &c. bellarmin himself , l. . de concil . auth . c. . confesseth it condemned the seventh synod : and platina in the life of hadrian the first saith , that two worthy bishops theophylact and stephan held a synod in the name of hadrian of german and french bishops in which the synod , which the greeks call the seventh , was abrogated . h. t. adds , ob. the lateran council under pope leo the tenth sess . . defined a pope to be above a council , and the council of constance , sess . . defined a council to be above a pope . answ . neither part was ever yet owned by the church for an oecumenical decree or definition , and if it were , it would be answered that the lateran council defined onely a pope to be above a council taken without a pope , or not approved ; and that the council of constance onely defined a council approved by a pope to be above a pope without a council , which definitions are not contradictory , no more than to say , one part of any thing is bigger then another , and the whole bigger then both ; so that from hence it cannot be inferred that either council erred : nor was either decree approved by the pope . i reply , this is impudent outfacing with shifts the truth in things manifest to all that enquire into them . he cannot deny that these contrary definitions were of two councils which he himself , p. , . terms general councils , and makes popes president in both , and both he sets down in his catalogue made to prove a succession in the church of rome , and yet here he denies their definitions to be oecumenical , what is an oecumenical definition if that an oecumenical council be not ? how is it an oecumenical definition when it determins against john hus , or against christs own expresse command for communion under one kinde , and nor oecumenical , when it decrees the supremacy of the council above the pope ? this is meer jugling of h●●us pocus , which shews that when it likes them the council shall be approved , when not , rejected , and thereby take upon them to be above pope and council . but if this be the fashion of their councils who can tell when one decree is contrary to another if these were not ? or who can tell when a decree is approved by a pope if neither of these were ? where 's the agreement ? where 's the infallibility they so vainly arrogate to their church ? martin the fifth expressely confirmed the acts of the council of constance in the . session , of which one was in the fourth session , that every one though of papal dignity was bound to obey a general council in the things pertaining to faith . that which bellarm. l. . de concil . aut . c. . saith that he onely approved some things not others , because he said , sic conciliariter facta is but a shift ; for that expression is not set down by way of limitation and distinction , but explication , noting the reason of approving all because they were done conciliariter , as the word sic shews , which implies his acknowledgment that they were all so done . besides he not excepting it expressely could not be interpreted to except that from his confirmation more then any thing else there acted , it might as well be said he excepted the decree about half communion ; yea if he had excepted that decree of the councils being above the pope he had meerly deluded the council , that decree being their principal decree , and for which it was called . add hereto that the words of his bull thereupon do more fully manifest that he did not except it ; and the decree of the council of basil called after by vertue of his bull shews , that they understood it to confirm that decree proceeding against pope eugenius conformably to it . and for the other council that pope leo the tenth did not confirm the decree of the popes being above a council is contrary to bellarmin l. . de concil . aut . c. . who recites the decree as a proof , and c. . reckons it among the general councils approved by the pope , as appears , saith he , in that he was president in person . and for the other answer of h. t. it is ridiculous , sith the councils words are expresse that any person though of papal dignity was to obey the general council , and the decree was made of purpose to justifie their fact in putting down a pope . and there was no question nor need be , who is above other when both joyn , but all the question is and so the definition must be construed , when they are severed . yea it would be trifling to say the pope should obey the council , when the pope concurred , for it 's all one as to say be should obey himself : and to say the council is above the pope when the council and pope are one is frivolous , for in all such comparisons the words expresse what each is severally as they stand in competition according to their several authorities , and therefore the similitude of h. t. is frivolous as being not to the purpose . lastly , with what face can this man say that neither council err'd , when bellarmin saith c. . that in the florentin and last lateran the council of constance was rejected in respect of the first sessions , wherein it defined a council to be above a pope ? so that all the wit of man is not able to avoid this objection , but that according to the suppositions of popish doctors either a general council approved by a pope may erre in a point of faith , or else there is no error in a main point of their faith , when one general council approved by a pope contradicts a former general council approved by a former pope of greater freedome and celebrity by reason of the emperours presence and for other causes , which was seconded by another council not long after , as appears by the next objection , which is thus set down by h. t. ob. the council of basil defined , that a council was above a pope . answ . the decree was not approved , nor any other of that council , but onely such as concerned church benefices . see eugenius with terrecremata l. . c. . i reply , i finde no such distinction in pope nicolas the fifth his bull , but that it is confirmed altogether . but it seems when it pleaseth these men the council shall be approved , when not rejected . so that it is not either the calling of a council by a pope , or the universality of the fathers , or the approbation of the pope can confirm it , if another pope reject it , which they will do when it 's against their power and profit . and hereby is proved that popes are vertiginous , that popery is as mutable as the weathercock , that there is so little shew of agreement , unity and infallibility in popes and councils approved by him , that scarce any states are more full of changes in matters civil then they are in matters ecclesiastical and of faith , nor in any part of the world more disagreement then among papists . further saith h. t. ob. the council of ariminum defined arianism . answ . it did not , and that equivocal decree that was there made was never approved by the pope ; and the fathers themselves ( who were deluded by the arians with words that bare a double sense when they perceived the fraud ) lamented and renounced the fact . i reply , h. t. his own words confirm the objection . for , . if the fathers were deluded by the arians then they were not infallible ; and so a general council approved by the pope may erre in a main point of faith . . if that council did not define arianism , how were they deluded ? wherein was the fraud but in that the words being of double sense , yet indeed decreed arian doctrine ? what need they lament or renounce the fact if it were not so ? why doth austin l. . contra maximinum c. . oppose that council to that of nice , and maximinus allege it for himself if it did not decree arianism ? why did ruffinus , socrates , basil cited by bellarm , l. . de concil . c. . reject it , and bellarmin reckon it among the reprobate councils , if it were not arian ? and that pope liberius did subscribe to , it is related by hierom in his catalogue of writers in fortunatianus , in his chronicle , by hillary sundry times and others . yet saith h. t. ob. the council of trent erred by adding to the canon of scripture . answ . it did not : the third council of carthage approved all the same books by name excepting baruch whom they compared with the prophet hieremy , whose secretary he was , and this twelve hundred years ago . i reply , if the council of trent did not erre , pope gregory the great did , who expressely denied the books of maccabees to be canonical , l. . moral . c. . as for the third synod of carthage it was not an oecumenical synod , and it is over ballanced by the synod of laodicea before it , who omitted them . and if the ancients termed the apocryphal books canonical or divine , they are to be understood according to ruffinus his explication in his exposition on the creed , and others , that they were canonical in a sort as being read in the churches by reason of some histories or moral sentences , but not so as that they were brought to confirm the authority of faith by them . h. t. further saith . ob. the father 's err'd some in one thing some in another . answ . a part i grant , all together ( speaking of any one age ) i deny , and they all submitted to the church and so do likewise our schoolmen , who differ onely in opinion concerning school points undefined , not in faith . i reply . . that the fathers of some ages did generally hold errors is apparent in many particulars . augustine held it an apostolical tradition that the sacrament of the eucharist was necessary for infants , as appears l. . de pec . merito & remiss . c. . and elsewhere , and maldonat on john . v. . saith that it was the opinion of augustin and pope innocent the first , and that it prevailed . in the church for six hundred years , and yet the council of trent , sess . . c. . can . . saith , if any say the communion of the eucharist to be necessary for little ones afore they come to years of discretion , let him be anathema . the like might be said of sundry other points , as that of the millenary opinion , the souls not seeing god till the day of judgement , &c. . that all the fathers did not submit to the church of rome , is manifest by the asian bishops opposition to victor about easter , to stephen about rebaptization by cyprian and others , to boniface , zozimus and celestin about appeals from africa to rome by aurelius augustinus and a whole council . . that the schoolmen differ in points of faith defined is manifest in peter lumbard l. . sent . dist . . who held the holy ghost to be the charity whereby we love god , and the dissent from him in that point , the differences about the popes authority above a council , power to absolve subjects from the oath of allegiance , certainty of faith concerning a mans own justification , gods predetermination of mans will , and many more yet controverted between dominicans and jesuits , jansenists and molinists . . all submit not to the pope , but some appeal from him to a council , others by withstanding in disputes and otherwise decline his sentence in their cause , of which the opposition against pope paul the fifth his interdict by the republick of venice about their power over ecclesiasticks is a famous instance , evidently shewing that all that live in communion with the see of rome acknowledge not such a supremacy and infallibility to it as the modern jesuits ascribe to it . yet again , saith h. t. ob. st. augustin tells st. hierom that he esteems none but the writers of the canonical books to have been infallible in all they write , and not to erre in any thing . answ . neither do we , we esteem not the writers of councils infallible in all they write , nor yet councils themselves , but only in the oecumenical decrees or definitions of faith . i reply , augustin epist . . to hierom doth not onely say thus , i confess to thy charity , that i have learned to give this reverence and honour onely to those books of scriptures , which are now called canonical , that i do most firmly believe no author of them to have erred any thing in writing ; but he adds also , but i so read others , that how much soever they excel in holiness and doctrine , i do not think it true because they have so thought , but because they could perswade me either by those canonical authors or by probable reason that it abhors not from that which is true . which plainly shews . . that he counted only the writers of canonical scriptures and those books infallible . . that the sentence of others however excellent in sanctity and doctrine , is not to be believed because they so thought . . that their sentence prevailed with him so far as it's proof did perswade . . that this proof must be by the canonical scriptures or probable reason . h. t. adds . ob. st. augustin epist . . says we are onely bound to believe the canonical scriptures without dubitation , but for other witnesses we may believe or not believe them according to the weight of their authority . answ . he speaks in a particular case in which nothing had been defined by the church , namely whether god could be seen with corporal eyes ? but the decrees of general councils are of divine authority , as we have proved ; and therefore according to st. augustin to be believed without dubitation . i reply , though he speaks upon occasion of one particular case , yet the speech is universal [ but for other witnesses or testimonies ( besides the canonical scriptures ) by which any thing is perswaded to be believed , it is lawful for thee to believe or not to believe , as thou shalt weigh how much moment those things have or not have to beget faith : ] there 's not a word of exception concerning a thing defined by the church ; yea the opinion of augustin is full and plain in his second book of baptism against the donatists , ch . . to take away infallibility from any bishops or councils oecumenical , which i think fit to translate to shew how contrary it is to austin to make any councils after the apostles infallible . who knows not , saith he , the holy canonical scripture as well of the old as of the new testament to be contained in it's certain bounds , and that it is so to be preferred before all the later letters of bishops that a man may not doubt or dispute of it at all , whether that which it is manifest to be written in it be true or right , but for the letters of bishops which have been or are written after the canon confirmed , it is lawful that they be reprehended , if perhaps in them any thing have deviated ( or gone out of the way ) from truth , both perhaps by the wiser speech of any man more skilful in that thing , and by the more grave authority of other bishops , and the prudence of the learned , and by councils . and those councils which are held in single regions or provinces are to give place without any windings to the authority of more full councils , which are gathered out of the whole christian world , and oft times those former fuller councils may be mended by later , when by some trial of things that is open which was shut up and known which did lye hid , without any smoke of sacrilegious pride , without any swollen neck of arrogance , without any contention of wan envy , with holy humility , with catholick peace , with christian charity . yet once more , saith h. t. ob. st. athanasius ( in his epistle to the bishops of africa ) tells the arians they in vain ran about to seek councils , since the scripture is more powerful then all councils . answ . he says it was vain for them who had rejected the general council of nice , nor doubt we but the scripture hath in many respects a preheminence above the definitions of general councils , and a higher degree of infallibility , yet these also are infallible in points of faith . i reply , the reason of athanasius shews it was in vain for arians to seek to councils , because the scripture was against them , not because the council of nice was against them , as the very words recited by h. t. shew , who doth well to acknowledge the scriptures preheminence , which justifies protestants who stick to the scriptures against councils , which do often swerve from them and sometimes oppose them . as for the degree of infallibility ( if there be any degrees of infallibility , which perhaps a logician will deny , infallibility being a meer negation of liableness to error or being deceived ) h. t. ascribes to them , it is so uncertain what it is , and so weakly proved , that none that loves his soul should rest on it , and not try , what they hold , by the scriptures confessedly more infallible . as for the speech of the council of basil there 's no reason why protestants or others should rest on it , when papists themselves , even h. t. p. . rejects it , and says it was not approved in any decree , but such as concern church benefices ; and yet this man concludes with it's speech about the authority of a general council , as if it were certain . so vertiginous is this author . artic . vi. sanctity and miracles prove not the roman church true . the roman church is not demonstrated to be the true church by her sanctity and miracles . sect . i. the texts brought by h. t. to prove that the true church is known by sanctity and miracles are shewed to be impertinent . h. t. proceeds thus , article . the true church demonstrated by her sanctity and miracles . our tenet is , that the roman catholick church is known and evidently distinguished from all false churches , not onely by the marks and properties by us premised , but also by her sanctity and power of doing miracles , and is proved thus , that is thé true church and lawfull spouse of christ which is eminent for sanctity of discipline , and doctrine , and for miracles . but the roman catholick church and no other is eminent for sanctity of discipline and doctrine , and for miracles ; therefore the roman catholick church and no other is the true church and lawfull spouse of christ . the major for sanctity is proved by that article of the apostles creed , i believe the holy catholick church , as also by these texts of holy scripture ; christ gave himself for his church , cleansing her by the laver of water ( baptism ) in the word , that he might present her to himself a glorious church , not having spot or wrinkle , but that she might be holy and unspotted , ephes . . . these things ye were ( saith st. paul ) but ye are washed , but ye are sanctified , but ye are justified in the name of our lord jesus christ , and the spirit of our god , cor. . . a good tree bringeth forth good fruit , by their fruit ye shall know them , st. matth. , . strait is the gate , and narrow is the way which leadeth to life , &c. if thou wilt be perfect , go and sell all thou hast , and give to the poor , &c. and come and follow me , st. matth. . . there be eunuchs who have gelded themselves for the kingdom of heaven , he that can take let him take , st. matth. . . obey your prelates , and be subject to them , &c. heb. . . answ . . the syllogism is not good , the words [ and no other ] being wanting in the major proposition , and , if they be put in , the major is false . that which is eminent for sanctity of discipline and doctrine , and for miracles , and no other , is the true church and lawfull spouse of christ . for a chnrch may be true and a lawfull spouse of christ which is not eminent for miracles . else it would go ill with all the churches since miracles have ceased , and with the church consisting of john baptist and his disciples . but as it is now expressed by h. t. i grant the major , though except the words of christ , matth . , . the texts are all impertinent . the article of the creed is not meant of the meer visible church , but of the church which is also the invisible of the elect persons , nor is it meant of holiness of outward discipline and doctrine , but of inward real holiness , and so are ephes . . . cor. . , . yea the former is meant of that holiness , which is perfect without spot or wrinkle , when the church is presented to himself at his appearing , and the other of that sanctifying which is by the spirit of god , and not onely by baptism . the texts matth. . , . & . , . & mark . . heb. . . are not expressions of properties , which are marks of the church , but precepts , and signifie what duty some did or ought to do . now the doing of some duties is not a mark of the church , as v. g. doing justice , giving to the poor , relieving the saints , selling all we have , which may be in infidels ; and those duties which are in the three later texts are special duties of some , and therefore not marks which agree to the whole church , but such as all members are not tied to , every member ( not a woman ) is not to geld himself , but he that can take it , nor to sell all ( papists make these evangelical counsels of more perfection than is ordinary ) nor to obey prelates , and therefore in such they are no parts of sanctity , much less marks of a true church . sect . ii. the sanctity of men in former ages proves not the holiness of the present roman church . but it is the minor which is to be denied , of which h. t. saith thus , now that the roman catholick church hath abounded with , and brought forth saints in all ages ( which is a pregnant and convincing proof of our second proposition ) is manifest by the chronicles and martyrologies of the whole christian world. answ . . to talk of the roman catholick church is non-sense as is shewed before . . it is scarce good sense to say , the church brings forth saints , when the church is no other than the saints or a company of saints , . were it yielded that the church did abound with and bring forth saints in all ages , yet this proves not the sanctity of the church , but of those saints in it , nor doth it at all prove the sanctity of the discipline or doctrine , but of the persons , much less the power of miracles , the sanctity of the church , persons being often saints , as john baptist , who have not power of doing miracles , and unholy persons have it sometimes , matth. . , . and if it did prove any thing it would prove the privilege of the person , not the sanctity of the church . . the sanctity of the now roman church is not proved by the holiness of persons in former ages , whereof many never were of rome , nor is it likely ever heard of it , some of them opposed the roman church , and some lived and died in a state of disclaiming of it , and some kinde of excommunication from it , and had they lived to see its pride and wickedness , as now it is , would no doubt have abhorred it with greatest detestation ; much less is it proved by the holiness of men dead one thousand or four hundred years , especially when the holiness of those few is obscured by the almost universal ungodliness of their chief bishops ( whom they account their visible heads , and essential parts of their church ) and clergy and laity in rome it self for a thousand years past , which hath been so notorious , as almost all their historians , and preachers , and poets have described it so , as that it may be conceived justly , that rome is and hath been a sink of all uncleanness : there are verily , saith bellarm. lib. . de notis eccles . cap. . in the catholick church very many evil persons : and some of their own popes , as adrian the sixth , have confessed by cheregatus his legate , that abominations were committed in that holy see , the inf●●●ity passed from the head to the members , from the popes to the inferiour prelates , in so much that there hath been none that hath done good , no not one . innumerable have been the complaints made by all sorts , and sometimes by the princes of the german empire of their grievances by the popes and court of rome . nor do travellers tell us of any reformation considerable since the trent council : their own writers tell us , there is no excommunication for the common vices , but onely some penance , which effects no change ; in the apprehension of sir edwin sandys , if it were not for a little formal abstinence in lent there would be an universal deluge of vice in italy ; so that he who denieth the roman clergy and church to be a most unholy and filthy people hath gotten a whores forehead that cannot blush . there are sins among protestants , but i never yet met with writer or traveller , but would prefer london and other protestant towns as more free from impurity of body , blasphemy , cruelty , treachery , injustice , atheism , and such other sins as are not to be named , than rome is , where hath been permission of whore-houses for money by the pope , and the whores and bastards of popes and cardinals so notoriously domineer . sect . iii. the imagined holiness of benedict , augustine , francis , dominick , proves not the verity of the now roman church . but let us see what h. t. saith for their holiness , st. augustine and his fellows who converted england , when they were received into canterbury , ( saith hollingshead , part . . pag. . ) began to follow the trade of the apostles , exercising themselves in continual prayer , fasting , watching , and preaching , despising all worldly things , and living in all points according to the doctrine which they taught . st. francis , st. benet , and st. dominick , were all eminent for sanctity of life , as the magdeburgian centurists , confes . cent . . col. . . but i never yet heard of any protestant saints in the world. answ . what a foolish proof is this of his minor , that the roman church and no other is eminent for sanctity of life , because benedict and austin the monk a thousand years since , francis and dominick five hundred years ago were su●h in his esteem , and he hath heard of no saints among protestants ? as if there might be no saints in the greek church , though he hear of no protestant saints , or as if the greek church now judged schismatick might not be as well proved or rather better to be eminent for sanctity of life for the holiness of chrysostome , basil , nazianzen , gregory nyssen , as the now roman , for the reputed holiness of austin , benet , francis , and dominick . but might there not be protestant saints which he hears not of ? protestants are the same with primitive christians in their religion or articles of faith and worship , and as such all the holy apostles , martyrs , confessours , which have been true christians have been protestant saints , as protesting against the popish corruptions in doctrine , discipline , and worship ; so all the holy men who have protested against them in all ages have been protestant saints . thus cyprian and augustin who protested against the popes usurpation about receiving appeals from africa ; gregory the great who protested against the usurpation of the title and power of an universal bishop , the synod of frankford which protested against image-worship were protestant saints . and for waldus , and the waldenses that they were protestants is manifest , and saints too , their own works shewed . ( see morland's history of the evangelical churches in piedmont ) even rainerius their adversary being judge . and for wickliff , reginald peacock , robert grosthead , richardus armachanus , and many more their lives were so exemplary as shamed their adversaries , and yet they were protestants more or less against popish errours and abuses . it is true , protestants are not canonized saints by popes , who use to canonize for money or other respects some ignorant superstitious persons , or else active instruments for their party : but the holiness of protestants since luther began the reformation hath been such as hath caused even their enemies to ascribe much excellency to their eminent leaders . notwithstanding bolse●k's lye ( of which the wiser papists are ashamed ) yet florimundus raymundus , papyrius massonius , and others , acknowledged calvin to have been a man eminent for strictness of life , and industry in his pastoral work beyond any papist they could name . melancthon is commended even by papists for his holy , peaceable , and painfull conversation in the work of the lord. the lives of the chief reformers shewed them to be such as had the spirit of god dwelling in them , hooper and bradford in england , patrick hammilton and george wiseheart in scotland were men of exemplary godliness ; that i name not late men , such as john fox , john dod , richard grenham , and many more whose lives and works shewed them to have been men of holy conversation , and of much acquaintance with god , whom this scribler and such like superstitious papists , who place holiness in observance of humane inventions rather than in gods commands , obeying the pope rather than christ , and believing the lying legends of friers before the true reports of godly preachers of the gospel , having prejudice against them , condemn as hereticks . yethet they that place holiness in following the rules of christ , and not humane traditions , do judge them to have been holy and blessed men , such as have had not onely a form , but also the power of godliness . as for what h. t. saith out of hollingshead of austin and his followers , it speaks only what they did at the beginning , but it is certain that austin did not so persevere , but that he shewed much pride towards the british bishops , and so much malice to the banchor monks , men of more reputed holiness than himself , that he was suspected at least to have been instigator of a cruel massacre of two thousand of them for not submitting to him , and receiving the roman rites . and for his converting of england , though i am willing to let him have his due commendation , yet neither is it true that he converted all england , and those he did convert he did also pervert by his obtruding the romish orders , which christ never appointed , whence a great deluge of superstition spread over britain , and much discord and misery followed thereupon , as may be seen in the writers of the english histories . as for benedict who was before austin the monk , and francis and dominick after , that which i finde in the relation of their lives by villegas , translated by heigham , gives me no such cause as to judge them to have been men of such holiness as the popes and friers have judged them to be , but at the best deluded persons with the errour of those times , in which holiness was placed in monastical profession , and austere discipline , which the apostle counts to be no better than will-worship , col. . . and their talk of their miracles and visions are no better than old wives tales , upon the report of which popes as ignorant as themselves , or otherwise corrupt , have canonized them for their own ends ; and the preaching of dominick was against the truth professed by the albigenses , whom rainerius confesseth to have been men otherwise holy in life and doctrine , but that they spake against the church of rome , of whose idolatry , pride , cruelty , avarice , uncleanness of body , there is so much in all the writers of those times as is sufficient to shew , that those men had cause to abhor them , and to fear the yielding subjection to them , who had departed from christ , by their setting up other mediatours besides him , and changed pure christian religion into a corrupt mixture of paganism , judaism , and christianity : the shedding of whose blood was in a great measure caused by dominick's sermons , who may be therefore judged a wicked murderer rather than an holy saint . that which the century writers say of these men is but a relation out of the writers of the romanists , that they were by them accounted eminent for sanctity according to the opinion of those times : but that they any where ascribed to them real holiness i finde not . sect . iv. the roman church is not proved to be the true church by the holness of their doctrine , but the contrary is true . h. t. proceeds thus , adde hereunto what the catholick church teaches , that the commandments are possible , nay , must be kept , she teaches the necessity of contrition , confession , aud satisfaction , with many other practices of self-denial ; she teaches obedience to priests and spiritual pastours , in things belonging to the soul and the government of the church ; she teaches much fasting , prayer , and mortification ; she exhorts to good works , voluntary poverty , chastity , and obedience . the contrary to all which doctrines are taught by protestants and other sectaries . answ . the papists teach not onely that the commandments of god are possible , and that they must be kept ( which protestants teach also ) but they also teach , that in this life a person in the state of grace may perfectly keep the whole law of god , so as not to sin , ( except venially , which is with them not a sin properly , as being besides , not against the law ) and thereby be justified , and that many things , which are horrid evils , are venial sins , and that a person may satisfie for them , by works of penance , which are for the most part easie things , yea , they teach that a man may by his good works merit of condignity ( either by virtue of gods promise , or the worth of the work ) eternal life , yea , that he may do works of supererogation , and merit for others , and that thereby is made up a treasury in the church , which with the redundance of christ's sufferings may by indulgences be laid out for others , for the relaxation of their punishment in purgatory . but this doctrine protestants abhor , as being so far from being holy ▪ that they detest it as anti-evangelical , proudly evacuating the grace of the gospel , and they teach that most blessed , holy , and precious doctrine of the gospel , that the most holy mee● man is unable in this life , though regenerate according to the measure of renewing grace , he hath to keep the law of god perfectly , so as to fail in no point , or so as to be justified before god by pleading any works of his own before , or after regeneration , or can merit of condignity in proper acception any thing at gods hands , much lesseternal life , but all that are justified are justified by faith in christ freely by the grace of god through the redemption that is in jesus christ , and that eternal life is the gift of god through jesus christ our lord , and this we are sure as far exceeds in holiness popish doctrine as christ exceeds moses , the gospel the law , the new covenant the old . protestants teach the necessity of contrition of spirit for sin , and confession of sin to god , and satisfaction to men whom we have injured , if able : but the necessity of confession to a priest , and such power of absolution and enjoyning penance , as papists ascribe to a priest , and such satisfaction to god for sin , as they teach and practise , we deny , as being injurious to the blood of christ , an arrogant usurpation of what christ never conferred , but a fruit of ignorance of the nature of repentance , and of the mystery of the gospel , and a meer engine to rob the people , and to hold them in slavish subjection to their priests . we say , that it is true self-denial when christ requires it , and either the glory of god , the truth of christ , and obedience to him must be forsaken , or our goods , liberties and lives , than to deny our selves by not retaining them : but that it is no part of that self-denial which christ requires , nor any part of christian mortification for a man unnecessarily to leave his estate and imployment , to whip himself , creep to a cross , go on pilgrimage to jerusalem , and such other things as christ never required , but are meer superstition and hypocrisie . protestants teach obedience to spiritual pastours in things belonging to the soul , and the government of the church , when they teach them to observe what christ commanded : but they justly refuse to subject their consciences to such commands of prelates and priests as christ never appointed , but judge it necessary to stand fast in the liberty they have by christ , and not be entangled with the yoke of bondage , which popes , and prelates , and priests , under pretence of the church ( of which they are the least part ) about difference of meats , marriage , holy-days , temples , and such like things endeavour to impose on their consciences and practise , as being injurious to their christian freedome and an heavy burden . protestants teach much fasting when god calls for it in time of affliction , and for more advantage in prayer , but they reject popish set fasts , and their mock-fasts , in forbearing flesh of beasts , eggs , milk , butter , yet eating and drinking other food , and drink perhaps more delicious in fulness , as a meer delusion . protestants teach praying much in spirit with understanding of what they ask with faith , and trust to be heard through the name of christ for such good things as god hath promised : but they deride justly popish praying in latin by those who understand not what they say , their saying ave maries and the creed for prayers , their superstitious saying prayers with beads by tale , their tying themselves to canonical hours , as more holy than other times , their prayers for souls in purgatory , which is a meer figment , serving onely to affright silly people that they may draw money from them for saying masses , they detest that most abominable invocating of the virgin mary , wherein she is extolled as authour of grace , mother of mercy , having authority over or upon christ , with abundance of wicked superstitions which are used in popish devotion to canonized saints , crucifixes , a piece of bread , imagined relicks of saints . protestants press on men true mortification of the sins of the flesh or deeds of the body by the spirit working hatred of the inward lusts , and forsaking the evil practises of them ; but they reject the foolish practises of whipping themselves , tearing the flesh with lying on briars , as they say benedict did , tumbling in the snow , as they say francis of assisium did , girding the body with iron , and lying on the ground , as they say dominick did , which neither subdue lust , nor the devils temptations , but are like the acts of bedlams , and may be , and perhaps are done out of vain-glory and proud conceit of meriting by them . protestants exhort to good works , but deny the building of monasteries to be such , for idle monks , that in stead of working with their hands that they might give to him that needs eat the bread to the full , which belongs to the needy poor , under pretence of praying , which is no special function . protestants teach men to be poor in spirit , to bear patiently poverty , when gods providence allots it ; but the voluntary poverty of monks and friers they reject as being a curse , or else a meer hypocritical counterfeiting of poverty , when they enjoy greatest plenty , and live in fulness , as monks and friers usually do , or else a meer madness , as in anchorites and e●●mites . protestants teach true chastity in marriage and single life , but they detest popish vows of single life in priests , friers , and nuns , as superstitious snares , when few of them have the power of continence , and they abhor the terming of the use of the marriage-bed in presbyters unchast and unholy , and most of all the hellish doctrine of those that teach it to be better for priests to use concubines than wives , and tolerate fornication and other unclean lusts when they forbid marriage , and excommunicate , and deprive , and imprison , and persecute priests and bishops for it . we protestants teach obedience to parents and magistrates , and all that are over us in the lord : but abhor the vow of blinde obedience to superiours never appointed by god , as slavish , and oft-times mischievous and destructive of the necessary obedience due to parents , and governours , whom god hath established . all which things being considered , we are fully assured that the protestants doctrine in these things is most holy , and the popish impure , though to men that know not the scripture it have a shew of wisdom and holiness . yea , we avouch that there is scarce a church in the world that is more unholy than the roman in their maintaining the worship of images , which hardens the jews from christianity , in their adoration of the bread they eat as their maker , which moved averroes a mahometan to prefer philosophers afore christians , the infallible power of the pope , though a most wicked man by himself , or in a council of his liking to set down what is to be held in point of faith , to dissolve leagues , and break oaths upbraided by amurath the great turk to christians , to dispense with incestuous marriages , deny marriage to priests , which pius the second a pope thought fitter to be restored , forbidding some meats as unclean at some times , the cup at the eucharist , and the ordinary reading of the bible in their own language to the lay-people , directing men to invocate saints , teaching them to ascribe salvation to their own merits , making the man of sin the vicar of christ , besides what some have taught about deposing and destroying princes , giving equivocating answers to magistrates upon oath , exempting priests from subjection to princes , allowing the breach of faith to those they judge hereticks , making cursing parents in passion , and other horrid evils venial sins , allowing great crimes upon the probable opinion of one doctor , killing a man to vindicate honour , and such other most odious resolutions of cases of conscience of the late jesuits , which the more sober and honest jansenist in his late book of the mystery of jesuitisme , hath discovered ; in which there may be found such a nest of most stinking doctrines vented by jesuits , as honest moral infidels by the light of nature did detest , and from their doctrines we may truly infer , that rome as now it is , is indeed the mother of harlots , and abominations of the earth . on the other side , though protestants are not without errours , yet in the main matters , especially in the doctrines of the gospel , and holiness and righteousness of life their doctrine shines more bright than ever it did in any church since the age following the apostles unto this day . sect . v. the devotion of romanists shews not the holiness of the roman church , it being for the most part will-worship and pharisaical hypocrisie . h. t. goes on thus , her churches are open and divine service said not onely on all sundays and holy-days , but every day in the week , and that the greatest part in the forenoon . there is five times more preaching and catechizing , and ten times more fasting and praying in the catholick church than in the protestant ; her sacraments are more , and more frequented , and in stead of an innumerable multitude of religious men and women that are in the catholick church , who have freely forsaken all things to follow christ , and totally relinquished the riches , pleasures , and preferments of this life to serve him in the remainder of their days in vows and practises of holy poverty , obedience , and chastity , protestants have an innumerable company of sects and sect-masters that daily spring out of their stock , such as are continually broaching new heresies , and always at defiance one with another . answ the popish devotion is so far from proving the holiness of the roman church falsly and most impudently termed the catholick church , that it rather proves them a synagogue of satan than a church of christ . their churches as they term them , stand open , but that which is to be seen or heard in them is more like the temples of pagan gods than christian assemblies . in the primitive times christians had no images in their places of meeting , but popish temples are full of images and pictures , and the service to them like the pagans to their idols , bowing down to them , burning incense before them , offering gifts to them , lifting up and adoring a piece of bread , with a great deal of outward pomp of lights , garments , garnishing of the house , attendance of officers , suiting better to womanish and childish persons than holy spiritual christians . their mass , which is that they glory in , is nothing like the institution of christ , nor used to that end for which he appointed his last supper to be continued , but a meer shew with many ridiculous gestures , motions , actions , with lamps burning in the day , copes and garments in imitation of the jews , which make it unlike the primitive simplicity of christians , which was without them many hundreds of years . their many holy days were justly heretofore complained of as a great grievance to people , and it is a great happiness to be freed from them all , as begetting idleness , luxury , and penury , the lord's day excepted , which is no where among them observed as a day set apart for god , and spent in prayer , hearing , reading the word of god to the edification of the people , and such other duties of religion as god hath prescribed , but after some time spent in hearing mass , and even-song , the rest of the day is spent in feasting , sporting , and in many places in such worldly affairs , as shew little minding of god or any heavenly affections . their churches are open in the week days upon an ignorant and superstitious conceit , as if god would hear them there by reason of the consecration of the place , or the relicks of some saint , or some other fond imagination which their priests , or ancestours instill into them , and therefore they say there their ave-maries and pater-nosters by tale , without understanding or attention to what they say or do , or to god , but observing onely their gestures after their manner , stay out their time without learning any thing which may improve them in christian knowledge , but in their houses in the mean time calling upon god with understanding and feeling of their wants , the reading of holy scriptures is neglected , and many other duties which should be done are omitted , and which is worst of all much wantonness and other evils occasioned ( if credible persons say true ) and cloked by the often repair of persons to their churches . that there is more preaching and catechizing among papists than among protestants is strange news to me , nor do i think any london merchant or other person who hath travelled into italy or spain will believe it . what now is done i cannot speak of mine own knowledge , as having not travelled into those countreys ; but what i finde in authours whom i have great cause to believe , makes me , who have known london , oxford , bristol , worcester , and other parts of england , and their preaching and catechizing , conceive , that h. t. tells here a manifest untruth . however it is easie to discern by reading the sermons and catechisms of both , which are printed , that their preaching and catechizing , how often soever it be in respect of gospel doctrine , spiritual truths and holy directions comes as short of the english protestant preachers sermons and catechizing as lead or dross doth of gold. when drury preached at black-frier● his sermons were of popish penance , and such like superstitious points of popery . the history of the quarrels between pope paul the fifth and the common-wealth of venice by frier paul tells us , that it was found in the rules of the jesuits when they were expelled out of venice , that this was out of their instructions to be very ●paring in preaching of the free grace of god , and the relation of their doctines in the book of the mystery of jesuitism published by a jansenist , shews what kinde of doctrine the jesuites now the popular preachers instill into the people of france . their fasting and praying , if it be such as their casuists describe , is a nullity or a mockery , that which they call fasting being onely a change of food , sometimes such as a glutton would choose to please his appetite , and differring a meal for some hours , which is no fasting , and their praying no ascending of the minde to god , or making known their requests to him , but saying words many of them that contain no petitions , like parrots without understanding , and in a great part calling upon deceased saints and angels . the multitude of their sacraments shews the grosness of their ignorance and greatness of their superstition , matrimony being no sacrament of the new law given to christians for the sanctifying of them , but an institution of god before the fal● of adam , common to all mankinde for the lawfull propagating thereof , unction being no ordinary rite for sanctification , but a sign of a special gift of healing , penance is no special sacrament , but the common duty of all men , auricular confession is an unjust imposition , priests authoritative judicial absolution is a meer delusion , confirmation is either a fond imitation of the apostles act in giving the holy ghost , or else is in its genuine use an appendix to baptism . orders is a rite proper to the clergy , as it is termed . the eucharist and baptism are indeed holy ordinances of christ , not to give grace by the work done , but by the one to testifie our profession , the other our remembrance of his death : neither name nor thing of sacrament , as papists define it is from scripture , nor is any thing almost right in papists doctrine or use of these rites , but their use of them is almost quite changed into another thing then what christ instituted , and therefore the more they are frequented , the lesse is there of true religion and the more of vain superstition . there 's far better administration of the lords supper among the protestants , who use it after christs institution to remember his death : not as papists for a propitiatory sacrifice for quick and dead with addition of many histrionical mimical inventions of men , and mangling it by the half in keeping the cup from the laity , and making a private masse of a communion . baptism is better administred without addition of oil , cream , and spittle , and ephphatha , and such toyes as papists use . ordination is better used by protestants who ordain preachers of the gospel , not sacrificing priests . and yet in these and in other matters some things may be better'd , which through the great aberration from the primitive institution remain yet to be amended . as for the multitude of religious men and women as he calls them , not only the relations of protestants , but also of popish writers give us cause to think there 's little of religion or morality in them except gluttony , idlenesse , whoredom , and other lewdness be religion . the common proverb makes a frier a lyer . if they freely forsake any thing it is not to follow christ , but bennet , francis , dominick , bruno , ignatius and such like hypocrites , by following whom there is more reason to judge they forsake christ , then by adhering to their rules to adhere to christ , there being none more malicious and bitter and cruel enemies to the sincere preaching and profession of the gospel then friers , monks , nunnes , and especially the damned crew of jesuits , who have been within one hundred years and somewhat more authors of more bloody warrs , massacres , cruel persecutions , treasons , murthers and other hellish villanies then ever such a number of men besides were guilty of since the world stood . is any man of such a sottish spirit as to believe that these men have relinquished the riches , pleasures and preferments of this life to serve christ the remainder of their lives , who knows what goodly structures they live in , what full tables they have , what great revenues they are inriched with ? will any man that views the very ruins of abbys , nunneries , priories and other houses , which they termed religious here in england , that reads the catalogue of their revenues at the end of speeds chronicle judge these relinquished the riches of this life ? are the monastery of st. laurence in castile , the colledge of la flech in france , with innumerable more in those countries , and in germany , italy , &c. cottages for poor almesmen ? what an arrant gullery and cheat is this of this frontlesse scribler to perswade english people , that their votaries have relinquished all riches when they possesse revenues in some countries equal to kings and princes , fair palaces , full tables , good cloathing , great attendance , large command of tenants with furniture and provision of all sorts of things commodious for this life in their convents ? and to say they serve christ when all the world knows the monks serve none but their own bellies , and the jesuits are true to none but the catholick bishop and catholick king , who may perhaps in time finde them as pernicious to themselves as they are to other princes and states , what a monstrous fiction is it ? their vows and practises are not of true but counterfeit poverty , and if it were voluntary poverty indeed which they make shew of , it would be the more sinful , god no where directing men to cast away their estates , but to use them john . yea christ himself at some time was restrained from doing miracles , matth. ▪ . and the disciples were defective therein , luk. . , . . that there are some wonders which are lying wonders . that these are so like true miracles , that they are very apt to deceive a great part of men . . that the lord permits these to be for trial of men . . that he keeps his elect from being seduced by them . . that they are bound to heed whereto these miracles tend , and not to follow them that make shew of them if they tend to idolatry , and to draw us away from gods expresse commands and truths revealed in the scripture . out of all which i infer , that without examination of the doctrine by the scripture we are not meerly upon the pretence of miracles to judge men to be true teachers and true churches , ( except they should be so many , great , frequent , open , as christ and his apostles were , for i count that speech of bellarm. lib. . de notis eccles . c. . impious that before the approbation of the church it is not certain with the certainty of faith whether any miracle be true , which if true till the church approved them there had been no certainty of faith that christs or his apostles miracles were true ) and therefore miracles are not a sufficient note of a true church . sect . vii . the popish pretended miracles prove not the truth of their church , nor the miracles related by some of the fathers . but h. t. taking his major , as to the power of miracles , sufficiently proved proceeds thus . the minor is proved by these ensuing undeniable testimonies . first , protestants and other sectaries pretend that miracles have ceased ever since christ and his apostles time , because they and their sectmasters have never yet been able to do any , a sure conviction that they want this mark . answ . . protestants do not pretend that all working of miracles is ceased since the apostles time , but such frequent working of miracles as was in the apostles time . . that they do not for the reason which this author allegeth say so , but because the truth is so , and if they have not been able to do any , no more have the papists ; if they could they would do them to convince the sectaries ( as he terms us ) sith signs are not for them to believe , but for them that believe not , cor. . . and therefore if papists could do any miracles , surely they would do them openly to convince the hereticks who deny their popes and churches infallibility , of which surely we are all such infidels , as that without miracles done by popes and the preachers of his vicarship we shall never be brought to believe it . but they choose rather to cheat foolish papists with counterfeit tricks , as of the boy of bilson , garnets straw and such like devices , then to let any understanding protestants have any sight of them , who would discover their knavery . but h. t. tells us . secondly , histories ( as well of enemies as friends ) have recorded many famous miracles in all ages wrought by the catholick church . the magdeburgian centurists , although protestants ( such is evidence and force of truth ) have recorded many great miracles done by catholicks in their . c. of every century for one thousand three hundred years together after christ . st. francis of assisium fifteen dayes before his death had wounds freshly bleeding in his hands , feet and side , such as christ had on the cross , and this by miracle , mat. paris p. . one paul form having stoln two cons●crated hosts out of a church sold one of them to the jews , who out of malice and contempt stab'd it , saying ; if thou be the god of christians manifest thy self , whereupon blood issued out of the host , for which fact thirty eight of them were burnt at knoblock in brandenburg , and all the rest of the jews were banished out of that marquisate . this is recorded by pontianus in his fifth book of memorable things , and by john mandevil a protestant in his book de locis communibus p. . as also by osiander epist . . p. . answ . . the magdeburgian centurists have indeed in their several centuries one chapter of marvellous things , but many of them are such as were wrought immediately by divine providence and are liable to various constructions , few of them , done by men in testimony of the truth of any religion , doctrine or church , and fewer yet of any certain credit . . there 's no relation of any of them that are said to be done as wrought by the catholick church , either roman or properly so called , however there be some related as done by persons of the catholick church , who are more justly to be accounted protestants in respect of the doctrine they taught then papists , whom they falsly call catholicks . . it is not denied that socrates l. . hist . c. . mentions a miracle of paul a novatian bishop , and augustin . tract . . on john , and de unit . eccles . c. . denies not , that the donatists alleged miracles , and he calls them by contempt mirabiliarios , and judged that the church was to be judged by scripture and the miracles by the church , as bellarm ▪ confesseth de notis eccl. l. . c. . . those that are said to be done by persons of the catholick church for the first five hundred years , were not done by persons that held the now romish doctrine or in confirmation of it or the verity of the now roman church . . all the rest in all the ages following are of none or very small credit . gregory the great is himself judged by romanists to have been too credulous of tales , those dialogues which are said to be his ( in which are related some of the miracles which the papists rely on ) being either none of his or shewing too much credulity in him : the rest of the miracles in the legends are so ridiculous fopperies , as even discreet papists themselves have discredited . dr. rainold conf. with hart ch . . divis . . allegeth canus as in general excepting against the reports of miracles even by grave , ancient , learned holy fathers , loc . theol. l. . c. . and particularly against gregories dialogues , and bedes history , and the very portesse as having uncertain , forged , false and frivolous things in them about francis and dominick , and he shews that pope gelasius and a council of seventy bishops with him condemned many false stories which were rehearsed in the roman portesses , if espencaeus comment . in . epist . ad tim. c. . digress . . be to be believed . the two pretended miracles which this author hath chosen for instance have nothing like divine miracles or truth . the miracles of christ and his apostles were such as were done openly in the sight of all so as they could not be denied , but even adversaries confessed them , these were things only in private , so as that there might be some device used to delude the sight , or might be fancied to be so by some doating persons , or might be by the illusion of satan , which is not improbable to have been used in them , there being great cause to conceive , that in those dayes of darknesse by seeming wonders , apparitions , visions , prophecies , satan promoted the worship of saints , especially of the virgin mary , the opinion of purgatory , prayer for the dead , worship of reliques , by which idolatry and superstition grew among christians about and after the time of the second nicen● synod . nor is there any likelihood that the wounds of francis should appear fifteen dayes afore death , in which time he was likely covered , and not after his death , in which his body being naked they might have been more visible , were not the time afore death more convenient for the imposture . and the like may be said of the other tale . what likelihood is there that a man should venture his life to steale two pieces of bread , or little water cakes , or that a jew should buy one , or do such an act before witnesses , which would bring so much evil on him ? the thing seems more likely to have been a devised tale to pick a quarrel with the jews , as it was in those dayes usual for a pretence to get their goods as it had been done to the templars . sure there was no justice to burn thirty eight for the fact of one , much lesse to banish all jews thence . and why was nothing done to paul form ? either it was therefore a mee● fiction , like one of those in sir john mandevils travailes , or else a device to sti● up rage against the jews , that they might prey on their goods . . were it yeilded ( as it is not ) that there was truth in these relations , yet the most that can be collected is , that god would vindicate francis from some ill opinions or reports of him , not that he might be extolled , as horatius turselin in his blasphemous epigram did , as if he were comparable with christ , or that either the popes supremacy or the order of friers , or the verity of the doctrine of the roman church then , much lesse the truth of the present roman church should be confirmed . nor , if the other accident were true , doth it follow , that god would thereby confirm the opinion of transubstantiation , but the verity of christs being the son of god , and we may more justly answer concerning i● , then bellarmin doth concerning the miracle of the novatian bishop , that it was done , not to confirm the novatian faith , but catholick baptism , so the other was done , not to confirm the popish opinion of transubstantiation , but the christian doctrine of the man christ his being the son of god. h. t. adds , notwithstanding this confession of adversaries , i will also all some fathers , of whose relations of miracles it is not worth while to consider whether they were true or not , there being not one of them that proves this point , that the church which wants miracles is not the true church , or that the present roman doctrine or church are the true doctrine or church . that which cyprian and optatus relate , if true , did only vindicate the lords supper from contempt , that of gregory thaumaturgus , whether it were so or onely a report ( of which good men were sometimes too credulous ) it proves not the truth of the roman church , but rather , if any , of the greek church which owned not the popes supremacy , nor their doctrines in that age . much less is that which he brings out of chrysostom concerning the reliques of babylas for his purpose , sith it is expresly said to have proved against infidels that christ was the son of god , and the idols of the gentiles were vain things , which no more proves the truth of the roman then of the protestant churches , nor so much as of the greek churches who hold the same . that of ambrose concerning his brother satyrus proves not transubstantiation , but rather the contrary , sith satyrus adored not the eucharist , when he kept it , and that he did keep him from drowning was but a conjecture , nor is it proved that god by that accident approved his superstition , though he might reward his faith and love , of which that was a sign . what augustin l. . de civit . dei c. . writes of things done in his time are not undoubted , sith some of them are related upon the report of one or more not very judicious , who might enlarge things beyond truth , esp●cially when the custome was of reading the relations to the people , and they were pressed in conscience to divulge them , as there augustin saith was done by him , and it seemed so much for advantage of christian religion ; some of them might be by medicines working beyond expectation though attributed , as the fashion is , to that which was last used ; some of them perhaps fell out according to the course of such diseases , as are said to be cured ; that of the healing of two cappadocians hath too much suspicion of counterfeiting , and augustin himself , though he relates somethings of his own knowledge , yet makes none of them like the miracles of christ and his apostles , which were more frequent and open and manifest in the presence of the adversaries , as the raising of lazarus and many more were , and therefore he allegeth them for the stopping of their mouths , who called for miracles , rather then for any evident proof of religion , using this very preface in the beginning of the chapter , why , say they , are not those miracles now done which ye say have been done ? i may say indeed they were necessary before the world should believe for this that the world might believe . whosoever as yet seeks after prodigies , that he may believe , is himself a great prodigy , who the world believing , believes not . but whatever be to be thought of the relations of augustin in that place , certain it is that augustin , ch . , . useth them not to give testimony to the confirmation either of the truth of the roman church or any of their doctrines , nor for the worshipping of stephen the martyr , or any other of the saints , but only to prove the resurrection of christ , to which they in their death gave testimony , and therefore are all impertinent to the purpose of h. t. to prove the verity of the roman church by them . sect . viii . the objections against the proof of the verity of the roman church from the power of miracles are not solved by h. t. but h. t. takes on him to answer objections thus . ob. miracles have ceased ever since christ and his apostles . answ . you contradict the plain promises of christ made to his church without limitation , as also the histories and records of all christendom . i reply , . the objection is not as h. t. frameth it , but that so frequent and manifest working of miracles as was in the days of christ and his apostles , and which may be a note of the true church or doctrine without consonancy to the scripture hath ceased , and therefore by this mark of it self the roman church is not proved to be the true church . . the contradictory to this is not proved by christs promises or the churches records for , . the promises , john . . mark. . . are indefinite in respect of persons and time , and an indefinite proposition is true in a contingent matter , if verified but of some at some times , and therefore these promises may be true of some believers onely , and of the time wherein the apostles lived , and consequently by the promises it cannot be proved that there must be a power of working miracles in the church in every age . . that they cannot be understood of any age after the apostles unto this day is manifest , because they are not true of any age after that . for however some miracles have been done , yet not greater then christ did , which is promised , john . . nor was the speaking with new tongues which is promised mark. . . in any age , but that in which the apostles lived . . these promises are as much made to believers in other churches as the roman , but now they grant there 's no power of miracles in any other church , and therefore they must yield to understand the words with such a limitation as may make the proposition true , though there be no power of miracles in the roman church . . there 's no promise of the power of miracles to confirm the truth of the roman church , nor of any other point but the christian faith , and therefore none of the miracles done by virtue of those promises prove the truth of the now roman church or doctrine , but onely the true faith , which is believed by protestants , who believe the creed as well as papists . as for the records , there are very few of them of any certainty after the apostles days , and popish writers themselves do confess , that not onely in their legends , but also in their liturgies , fabulous things have crept ; so that by saying miracles are altogether now ceased , or else are very rare , and are unfit to demonstrate the verity of any present church , is no contradicting christ's promises , or any good records of christendom . h. t. adds . object . signs and miracles were given to unbelievers not to believers , therefore they are now unnecessary . answ . no , they are not , for they very much confirm the immediate care and providence of god over his church , they excellently demonstrate his omnipotence , and there be many disbelievers still , the more is the pity . i reply , that tongues are for a sign to them that believe not , is the apostles saying , cor. . . not for them that believe ; and there is the same reason of other miracles ; and therefore is this justly urged by protestants , that to believers to prove the truth of christian doctrine or of the christian church miracles are unnecessary . now the answer of h. t. is quite from the point , when he tells us that they are necessary for other ends . and yet it is not true , that signs and miracles are necessary to confirm the immediate care and providence of god over his church , sith god doth by his ordinary provision either of teachers , or christian princes shew his immediate care and providence over his church , and by his daily works of the motion of the sun , and other acts of governing the world demonstrates his omnipotence : nor by his miracles and signs hath he shewed so much his immediate care and providence over his church for the guiding and protecting of them , as his care of unbelievers by bringing them into his church . and it is true , that there are many dis-believers still , the more 's the pity , and if god did see it good it would be a blessed hing if he did vouchsafe the gift of doing miracles to convert the indians moors , tartars , to the faith of christ , and we wish it were true which the jesuits boast of francis xavier his miracles in the east indies , though franciscus a victoria relect . . sect. . and josephus acosta lib. . de indorum salute cap. . , blab out that which gives us cause to think that the relations are but feigned things tending to magnifie the pope and the jesuits , there being no such evidence of those things from any persons of credit , who have traded or travelled into those parts . but be they what they will , it is certain god never intended miracles to prove the popes supremacy or the verity of the roman church , but the christian faith , and therefore till both or either of them be proved from scripture , if we be disbelievers we must be disbelievers still , knowing this , that if there should be never so great miracles in shew done by popes or friers , yet we are bound not to believe them without proof of their doctrine from scripture , and that if any though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel than that which is written , he is to be held accursed , gal. . , . and that miracles are not necessary for proving our calling while we preach the scripture-doctrine , as bellarmine scribles lib. . de not is eccles . cap. . but on the other side , if papists do not stick onely to scripture , nor will be tried by it , it is necessary they should produce miracles of their popes and prelates to verifie their claim or new gospel , of which they are altogether desti●●te , and have nothing to allege but a company of fables concerning some foolish friers , such as francis , dominick , &c. upon the report of silly superstitious women and doting companions of them , or some jugling tricks in corners done by cheating priests and jesuits , which serve for no other purpose but to prove the priests to be knaves , and their popish proselytes that believe them to be fools . and we have cause to press them as in the next objection , why do not then your priests do miracles ? we would be glad to see some of their doing . to which h. t. saith , answ . because of your incredulity as our saviour told she jews , st. matth. . yet they do many in gods appointed time and place ( as the records of the church will testifie ) though not to satisfie your sinfull curiosity . see francis a sancta clara in his paralipomena , who recounts many great and evident miracles . i reply , if our incredulity be the onely reason of their not doing them among us , yet me thinks they should do them in italy and spain where men have ●aith in them : but except of a few tales of philip nerius , ignatius loyala , francisca teresa , isidore of madrid an husbandman , and some other late canonized saints long after their death sworn by some admirers of them , or credulous receivers of reports concerning things of them not openly done and commonly known as the miracles of christ and his apostles were , i hear of none . the paralipomena of franciscus a sancta clara or davenport , who endeavoured to reconcile the nine and thirty articles of the church of england with the doctrine of the church of rome , that is , light with darkness , a little afore these wars , i never saw , nor do i expect to finde any thing from such a man but fraud and falshood , who had the face to endeavour to draw the articles purposely framed against the popish doctrine to a sense consistent with it . what justus lipsius writ of the miracles done by the idol at halles , and zichem , turselin of the chapel at lauretto , and such like relations , there is no man that heeds the scripture will give any credit to them , but take them either as fictions or illusions of satan to confirm men in the idolatrous worship of the virgin mary , and to promote the priests gain , which is a great part of the roman religion . but the frequent impostures of papists in this kinde , as of the blood of christ at the abby of hales , that of boxley abby , and the holy maid of kent , related by speed in his chronicle of henry the eighth , at orleans by gray friers related by sleidan , com. lib. . at bruxels related by meteran , lib. . hist . belg. that of the boy of bilson near wolverhampton in stafford-shire which is related in a book of that thing and persons yet alive can testifie of the priests deceit in it , with many more , give just cause to discredit all such narrations as meer jugling tricks . nor have the legends of saints , which this man calls the records of the church any better credit with the more ingenuous of their own church , of whom though some mince the matter , calling them pious frauds , as if piety might be upheld by lyes , yet ludovicus vives freely censured those that made them to have had a brasen forehead , and those that believed them a leaden heart . and therefore it is the more necessary for their priests to let us see their miracles , not to satisfie our curiosity , but our consciences , if they will have us converted from disbelief in their lord god the pope , ( as in the canon law be is termed ) there being nothing in the scripture to prove the roman churches verity or infallibility , or the popes supremacy , as will appear by examining the seventh article , to which i now hasten , which is intituled , the popes supremacy asserted . artic . vii . the popes supremacy is an innovation . the pope or bishop of rome's supremacy or headship of the whole church of god is not proved by h. t. sect . i. neither is it proved nor probable that peter was bishop of rome , or that he was to have a successour . our tenet , saith h. t. is that the pope or bishop of rome is the true successour of st. peter and head of the whole church of god , which hath in part been proved already by our catalogue of chief pastours ( who were all popes of rome ) and by the councils of all ages , approved by them , and owning them for such , and is yet farther proved thus . answ . that peter was pope of rome hath been said , but never yet proved but by the tradition of the ancients , who might be as easily deceived in that as they were about christ's age , the keeping of easter , and many other things . those very men who relate peter's sitting at rome as bishop do not agree about his immediate successour , whether linus , or clemens , or cletus , as h. t. confesseth here pag. . and the relation it self is so inconsistent with that which paul saith , that by consent he and peter agreed that peter should go to the jews , and had the gospel of the circumcision committed to him , his not saluting peter in his epistle to the romans , his being at antioch , and according to luke , and paul in other places so long a time as they mention in the acts of the apostles , and the epistle to the galatians , makes it altogether improbable that he should be bishop at rome such a time as they say he was , and be put to death in nero's time as the tradition insisted on bears in hand . nor was it agreeable to peter's office appointed by christ to be as a fixed pastour in one place . and if he were settled in any place it is more probable it was at antioch , where paul mentions him to have been , than at rome , nor of his translation of his seat from antioch to rome is there any proof , but what is by such tradition , as in this and other things appears to be very uncertain and unlikely . yet were it yielded that peter was bishop or chief pastour , how will it be proved that he was to have a successour ? paul it is certain was at rome , and did while he was there , undoubtedly execute the office of a pastour , yet popes do not challenge themselves to be paul's but peter's successours , however they put paul's sword in their arms with peter's keys , and in their writings say the church of rome was founded by peter and paul , and use paul's name with peter's in their sentences . nor can indeed in any true sense the pope of rome be termed peter's successour . for if he be his successour , he is successour in his work or in his power . the work of the apostle peter was by preaching the gospel to found churches to christ , and to that end was to go to several places ; but the pope of rome succeeds not in this , he neither goes up and down unless in a pompous procession , or to a worse end , nor preacheth the gospel , nor founds any churches thereby , nor doth think it his business , but to stay at rome , and there to live in pomp , and wealth , and luxury , and to lord it tyrannously over the flock of god. nor is he successour in his power . peter had power to give the holy ghost , acts . to strike ananias and sapphira dead , acts . but the pope cannot do these things . nor in the government of the whole church . for this peter onely had not , nor above other apostles , but together with the rest . nor was peter's or the apostles power any such visible monarchy as the pope claims , to receive appeals from all churches , to appoint legates to hear parties in all controversies of faith , to be an infallible judge of such controversies , an infallible expounder of the scriptures , determining what is heresie , and what of faith , calling general councils , crowning emperours , deposing princes , dispensing with oaths , marriages of persons in near degrees , otherwise prohibited , impose laws about fasting , and many other things which god never appointed . such an headship of the whole church as the pope claims peter never had . nor is any such thing proved or so much as offer'd to be proved by h. t. his catalogue , which how insufficient it is hath been alread shewed . i go on to his arguments here . sect . ii. from being the foundation , matth . . and feeding the sheep of christ , john . , , . neither peter's nor popes supremacy is proved . the first argument , saith h. t. is this , the foundation hath a preheminence of firmitude and stability before the rest of the building which is founded on it , and the shepherd is head of his flock , and above his sheep . but st. peter next after christ himself was the foundation of the whole church , and pastour of the whole flock : therefore st. peter next after christ had a preheminence over the whole church , and was head of the whole flock , and above all the other sheep , of which number were the rest of the apostles . answ . the headship and pastoral power which h. t. would prove to be due to the pope is not a guidance onely by teaching , but a princely dominion , so as that all may appeal to him , none from him , his sentence must be obeyed by all under pain of damnation in matters of faith , and must be judged infallible , and 't is likely he holds with bellarmine , lib. . de rom. pont . cap. . that if the pope should erre by commanding vices , or forbidding virtues , the church should be bound to believe vices to be good and virtues to be evil , unless it would sin against conscience ; and if he dissent herein from bellarmine , yet in the canon law distinct . . such an absolute dominion is given him , that though he should draw innumerable souls with him to hell , no man must say to him , why dost thou so ? and some flatterers of the pope have given him all power in heaven and earth , yea , and more than christ had , in purgatory also , allowing no appeal from the pope to god , as having one consistory with god , calling him our lord god the pope ; nor did i ever read or hear that any pope hath by any censure corrected such blasphemous titles , but they have by their commands contrary to gods , dispensing with his laws , deposing emperours , and innumerable other practises shewed that they owned such power as theirs . now sure this power was never given to peter , nor any such like power under the term of a foundation , which is for the ruine , not for the establishing of the church , nor under the charge of feeding , especially of anothers sheep , of whom he is no owner or lord. is this to feed christ's sheep , to do what he will with them , appoint what penance he will , put what laws he please on the sheep , to excommunicate , deprive of civil and ecclesiastical dignity and office at pleasure ? such a supremacy is indeed so like that which paul foretold concerning the man of sin , thess . . . that he opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called god , or that is worshipped : so that he as god sitteth in the temple of god , shewing himself that he is god ; that till i meet with some more likely than the popes to be there meant , i shall take it be a part of my creed , that the pope of rome is the very man of sin there meant . and for this h. t. who gives such a supreme headship to peter and the pope over the other apostles , so as to make him a shepherd , to rule , excommunicate , deprive , john , james , paul , as his sheep , it is so monstrously false an assertion as none but he that hath sold himself to teach lyes would ever assert it . as for his syllogism it is most grosly naught , as having four terms at least . the term [ hath a preheminence of firmitude and stability before the rest of the building which is founded on it ] being different from this in the conclusion , [ had a preheminence over the whole church ] and so likewise are these [ the foundation ] and [ the foundation of the whole church ] and therefore the major should have been [ the foundation of the whole church hath a preheminence over the whole church ] the minor thus , [ peter next after christ is the foundation of the whole church ] and the conclusion thus , [ peter next after christ had a preheminence over the whole church ] or else thus , [ the foundation hath a preheminence of firmitude and stability before the whole church . but peter next after christ is the foundation , therefore peter had a preheminence of firmitude and stability before the whole church ] now neither of these conclusions had been the point to be proved , but might have been granted , and the assertion not gained . and in the other metaphor the syllogism hath the same fault . for in the major it is [ head of his flock , and above his sheep ] in the minor it is [ pastour of the whole flock ] and in the conclusion not [ head of his flock and above his sheep ] but [ head of the whole flock , and above all the other sheep ] and there is added too this tail of which there is no offer of proof [ of which number were the rest of the apostles . ] now to discover besides the fallacy in the form the deceit in the matter of this argument , it is to be considered , . that the metaphor of a foundation doth not at all import rule or government , but inchoation and support , and therefore is unfit to prove that rule and power of government which h. t. derives from it . . that he that is a shepherd is head or lord of his own sheep , but a shepherd is not lord or head of anothers sheep of which he is no owner ; and therefore though he is to rule and feed them , yet he is not to rule them after his own will , but the owners , nor is he to take the profit of the sheep , but the owner is to have it , the shepherd is not to look , but for his pay and encouragement according to the will or contract of the owner . now the flock of christ were none of peter's sheep , nor were all the sheep of christ universally taken to be fed by peter , for then he should feed , that is , rule himself , who was one of the flock , and so excommunicate himself , absolve himself ▪ and sith the pope hath peter's power , if he be one of the sheep of christ , by this doctrine he is to rule , that is , to excommunicate , absolve , and deprive himself . and for the other metaphor of a foundation it hath the like absurdity : for if peter be the foundation of the whole church , and the term [ foundation ] imports the ruling of the whole church , peter , who is a part of the church , is the foundation of himself , and the pope of himself , and sith he is the vicar of christ , he is in stead of christ to himself , and so hath preheminence over himself , and the pope in like manner ; yea , unless they deny the blessed virgin mary to have been one of christ's sheep , they must assert peter , and after him the pope to have been the foundation and shepherd of the blessed virgin mary , to have had a power to rule , excommunicate and absolve her . the truth is this , the pressing of a metaphor beyond that for what it is used draweth with it many absurdities ; and therefore the metaphors of foundation and building , shepherd and sheep can infer no more than that use of these which the authour of the speech intended by them , which what it is will be considered by examining the texts brought for proof . and for the arguments , if they did conclude the thing in question they should be thus framed , or to this purpose . he that is the foundation or builder of the whole church of christ , hath supreme unerring dominion or rule of the whole church of christ . but such was peter , and by consequence the pope of rome . ergo. again , he that is to feed all the sheep of christ hath dominion or rule as aforesaid . but that was peter , and consequently the pope of rome is to do . ergo. in both i should deny the major understood of the under foundation , builder , and shepherd , though it should be yielded by concession of an impossibility , yet he should not have such a supreme unerring rule thereby : and i deny the minor also , and in both as they stand or should stand , there are many propositions in these and his forms expressed or implied , which are apparently false ▪ as , . that every foundation of the church hath preheminence of firmitude above every building founded on it . there were some as firm in the faith as the apostles , and of the apostles some as firm or more firm than peter . . that every foundation or builder of the church hath rule over it . . that the metaphor of a foundation or builder do note rule or dominion . . that as applied to peter , they note in him supreme unerring rule or dominion . . that he that is a shepherd is head of his flock . . that he is above his flock . . that the person that is bid to feed christ's sheep is bid to feed , the whole flock of christ universally taken . . that the charge of feeding them is as much , as have supreme dominion , be a visible monarch over them . . that the bishop of rome is peter's successour in that charge and power which christ committed to him over his whole church . . that what is said of peter in this point is true of every bishop of rome be he never so unlearned and vicious . all which i have distinctly noted , that it may appear upon how many suppositions the popes supremacy hangs , and yet how loose , and empty of proof from scripture or reason the disputes of papists are about this which is with them a fundamental point of their religion , in so much that were it not for the heavy curse , that is befallen papists , that sith they receive not the love of the truth , that they might be saved , they should believe lyes , that they might be damned , thess . . , , . it could not be that understanding persons among them should ever assent to the claimed supremacy of the pope over the whole church upon these reasons . but let us view what is said here . the major is proved , because the foundation supporteth the rest of the building ( we are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets , jesus christ himself being the chief cornerstone , ephes . . . ) and the shepherd hath a power to govern his whole flock . answ . the argument framed hence must be this , that which supporteth the building hath a preheminence of firmitude and stability before the rest of the building which is founded on it . but so doth every foundation . ergo. but the major is not true of personal metaphorical foundations , of which we now speak , not of material proper foundations . a man may be a foundation of a common-wealth , and support it by his wisdom , and example , and authority , and yet not have a preheminence of firmitude and stability above that common-wealth founded on him or it ; and so in the founding of the church , a man that founds it may fall away , and yet the church stand firm . neither is the minor true of every personal metaphorical foundation , he may be said to be a foundation , that is , begin a church or common-weath who doth not after support it . the text ephes . . . proves neither of the propositions , nor do i know to what purpose it is produced , except to prove peter to have been a foundation : but then it proves not peter alone , but the rest of the apostles and prophets to have been foundations , and so proves no preheminence to peter above them , which is the assertion of this authour . but to me it is doubtfull whether the apostles are termed foundations . . because this seems to be appropriated to christ , cor. . . . because it is not said , ye are built on the foundations , but the foundation , and therefore seems to have this sense , ye are built on that foundation which the apostles and prophets have laid , not , which they are , and so the genitives are of the efficient , not of the subject , and the foundation must be that doctrine or truth they declared , of which christ , that is , the doctrine or faith of christ is the chief corner-stone . nor is this against that which is revel . . . that the names of the twelve apostles are written in the twelve foundations of the wall of the new jerusalem . for that may be said , because they were chief workmen in the laying of the foundation , as paul saith of himself , cor. . . according to the custom of master-builders , whose names are written in their work , not because they were themselves the foundations , as the twelve tribes , vers . . in the twelve gates , because by them entrance was in the old testament , they being prime beginners of the people of israel . yet if they be said to be foundations , they were foundations as the prophets were , to wit , by their preaching : nor doth their being foundations prove their rule or dominion any more than the prophets being foundations ; and certainly peter is here made no more a foundation than the rest . the other proof seems to be this . he that hath power to feed and govern his whole flock is head of his flock , and above his sheep . but every shepherd hath such such power . ergo. the major is denied . a parish-priest hath power to feed and govern his whole flock , of which a king may be a part , and yet he is not head of the king , nor above him in dignity or authority , nor perhaps in knowledge . and the like may be said of his physician . sect . iii. the text matth. . . proves not any rule or dominion in peter over the apostles , but a promise of special success in his preaching . h. t. adds , the minor is proved , thou art peter , and upon this rock will i build my church , st. matth. . . ( the whole was built on him . ) answ . the argument seems to be this . he who is the rock on which christ would build his church he was next after christ the foundation of the whole church . but peter was the rock on which christ would build his church . ergo. in which there are these things supposed . . that the term [ rock ] is as much as a foundation , and so it is not the absolute quality of firmness onely , but also the relative use of a stone or a rock in building , which is imported by it . . that the term [ rock ] notes peter's person . . that it notes peter's person alone . . that it notes peter's person as being a rock so as no other , but christ , was a rock as he was . . that the building upon this rock notes peter's person in respect of his singular rule not given to other apostles . . that he was the foundation next after christ . . that the church comprehends the militant church visible . . that it notes the whole church of christ even the apostles themselves : each of these is to be examined . . the term [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] here used , whether it be translated [ rock or stone ] i deny not to denote not so much the absolute property of stability , as the relative use of a foundation in a building . . though some of the ancients make christ the rock , others the confession of christ , or the faith in him , which peter had professed , yet by reason of the occasion of the speech , and the preface [ i say unto thee ] and the commemoration of his name [ thou art peter ] and the allusion to that name in the choice of the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or cephas in syriack ] i deny not that by [ this rock or stone ] is meant peter's person , nor thirdly , that it notes his person alone , nor fourthly , that it notes peter's person in a singular manner , so as that there is something peculiar to peter intimated thereby . but i deny , . that it notes peter's singular rule or dominion not given to other apostles . . that he was so a foundation next after christ as that the other apostles were laid on him as a stone supporting them , as is the conceit of some of the romanists . . that the term [ church ] notes the visible church as visible . . that it notes the whole visible church universally taken . and each of these i prove thus . . if the term [ rock or stone ] note peter's person as becoming a foundation or foundation-stone by such an act as notes not any rule or dominion , and was common to other apostles with peter , then it doth not note peter's singular rule or dominion not given to other apostles : but the term [ rock or stone ] notes peter's person , as becoming a foundation or foundation-stone by such an act as notes not any rule or dominion , and was common to other apostles with peter . ergo. the major is of it self evident . the minor is thus proved . that act whereby peter's person became a foundation or foundation-stone was christ's building his church on him . but that act notes not any rule or dominion , and was common to other apostles with peter . ergo. the major is of it self evident . the minor is proved thus ▪ the act whereby christ built his church on peter was peter's preaching of the same doctrine which he professed . but that act notes not any rule or dominion , and was common to other apostles with peter . ergo. the minor i take for granted : papists do not ascribe rule or dominion to friers that preach , and other apostles preached christ as well as peter . now that christ builded his church on peter by his preaching is proved thus . that act by which and no other the church of christ is said to be built , is that act whereby christ built his church on peter . but it is the preaching of the doctrine that peter professed and no other act by which the church of christ is said to be built . the major is evident of it self . the minor is proved , . by those places which speak of building the church , they still import teaching not rule , as appears by an induction , acts . . rom . . cor. . , . & . . & . . gal. . . thess . . . pet. . . and the compound verb used acts . . cor. . , . ephes . . , . col. . . jude . and the noun rom. . . & . . cor. . . & . , , . cor. . . & . . & . . ephes . . , , . do all shew that the building of the church or saints is by instruction , not by rule , the work being sometimes mutual , as thess . . . ephes . . . jude . and sometimes the matter by which the building is , being for informing and teaching , as ephes . . . and sometimes the builders are termed teachers , as ephes . , . and that text ephes . . . ( which h. t. allegeth ) the building being by prophets as well as apostles can be understood of no other building than by teaching , therefore so also must be understood matth. . . . it is further proved from cor. . . where the apostle tells the corinthians , that as a wise master-builder he had laid the foundation , and that foundation which he laid was jesus christ , vers . ▪ and vers . . he shews how that was , to wit , in that he was a minister by whom with apollos the corinthians believed , and that thereby they were god's building , and god's husbandry , vers . . to wit , by his planting , apollos watering , and god's increase , vers . . which can be referred to no other acts but teaching or preaching of the faith of christ , in which paul counts himself a master-builder , that built not on peter 's foundation , or any others , rom. . . and his edifying is there the effect of his evangelizing or preaching the gospel , and consequently the building of the church , matth. . . must be interpreted to be by preaching the gospel . . it is further proved by those places which make the foundation of the building special doctrine , such as are heb. . . cor. . . rom. . . whence it follows , that the building of the church is by doctrine , and matth. . . must be understood of it , not of rule or dominion . yea , the council of trent it self , sess . . terms the creed the firm and onely foundation , against which the gates of hell shall not prevail ; and thereby intimates the foundation , matth. . . to be chief points of christian doctrine . . by the appositeness of the phrase to signifie planting and increasing of knowledge and strengthening by teaching , not imposing commands by way of rule or empire . no where is a prince said to edifie , but prophets , apostles , and other teachers ; nor is excommunication , ordination , calling of councils , and such acts as shew dominion termed edification , but teaching and reproving , cor. . . therefore such princely power as the popes claim cannot be meant by building christ's church , matth. . . . the same may be proved from the matter of the promise , matth. . . which is not of what power christ would give to peter , but of what christ would do by him , and consequently cannot be understood of supreme power , but of singular work . . the end of the power , which the pope claims , is for the exalting of himself , and his visible monarchy , but the thing promised matth. . . is not the advancement of peter , but the use of him for setting up his church . the popes power is ( as all experience witnesseth ) for the destruction of the church , not for edification ; and therefore is not meant matth. . . if any say , how then hath peter something singular ascribed to him ? i answer , in that he did first begin to lay the foundation of the churches after christ's ascension by his preaching , as acts . & . & . & . appears : and seems to be observed by peter , as the accomplishment of christ's promise , acts . . who used peter at the first more eminently than any other , though afterwards he chose paul , who did labour more abundantly than the rest , cor. . . . the second thing that peter was not so a foundation next after christ , as that the other apostles were laid on him , as a stone supporting them , is proved . from ephes . . . where the building of the church is said to be on the foundation of the apostles and prophets , jesus christ himself being the chief corner-stone , in whom the whole building compacted together groweth to an holy temple in the lord ; therefore the apostles and prophets have equal place in the building , and it is christ , and not peter , in whom all the building is fitly framed together . . from revel . . . where the wall of the city of new jerusalem is said to have twelve foundations , and not one singular one supporting the rest , but the foundations are as many as the apostles , none of whom is the foundation of the rest . . that the term [ church ] mat. . . notes not the visible church as visible , is proved , . in that it is termed christ's church , but the visible as visible is not termed christ's church , but as it is invisible by faith and christ's spirit dwelling in it . . in that christ promised , that the gates of hell should not prevail against it . but they have and do prevail against the visible church as visible , many visible churches have been corrupted and perish . . that [ my church , matth. . . ] is not the whole church universally taken is proved in that . then the whole church universally taken should be built by or on peter , but that cannot be true , sith a great part of the church specially of the gentiles was built by paul , and he denies he built on anothers foundation , rom. . . cor. . . . then peter should be built on himself , sith peter was part of the universal church , and the virgin mary should be built on peter , which are absurd . which things being evinced it appears , . that this was a promise to the singular person of peter of a singular success of his preaching which no other had , and so belongs not to any successour . . that it is not a promise of government and jurisdiction , ( in which h. t. placeth peter's headship , pag. . ) for that christ expresly forbade , but of singular honour to peter in his happy success in preaching the gospel , recompensing his readiness to acknowledge christ . and this christ had elsewhere promised , luke . . under the promise of being a fisher of m●n . now this is nothing to the dominion claimed by the pope . as for being a rock on which the church of christ might be built ; we would most gladly it were true , that the pope were such , we should then honour him and kiss his toe : but as he is and hath been for many hundreds of years , he is to be judged the butcher who hath slain the saints of god , and a tyrannical antichrist domineering over the church of christ . i marvel that h. t. saith nothing here of the keys of the kingdom of heaven , which the pope is painted with , as having them in his hands , and by which he was wont to claim his power . but perhaps he findes it too short for the proof of that peerless power which the pope claims , sith even in the council of trent and the roman catechism in handling the priests and bishops power of absolution , the keys are in their hands , and so it is no more than others have beside the pope : therefore i need not insist on that here , sith h. t. hath thought fit to omit it . sect . iv. john . , , . proves not peter's supremacy over the whole church . but he adds , and for a reward of peter's special dilection ( for he loved christ more than all the rest of the apostles ) he said to him , feed my lambs , feed my lambs , feed my sheep , st. john . , . ( a commission to feed all without exception . ) answ . the argument seems to be this , he to whom , as a reward of his special dilection , by which he loved christ more tha● all the rest of the apostles ; christ said , feed my lambs , feed my lambs , feed my sheep , st. john . , . and thereby gave him a commission to feed all without exception was pastour of the whole flock . but this was peter . ergo. here four things are supposed , whereof not one is true . . that peter loved christ more than all the rest of the apostles . for neither were all the rest of the apostles there , nor doth christ or peter say , he did love christ more than they did , but onely puts a question , which may either have this sense , lovest thou me more than thou lovest them ? or more than they love me ? and this probably was put to him to minde him of his former forward profession , and shamefull denial . . that christ made peter a head , or gave him a supreme dominion under the term of feeding . but , . the words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; now 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies not to rule , but onely to provide pasture , or to eate , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 also doth , jude . being intransitive : both of them where they are enjoyned to apostles , bishops , or presbyters , note teaching , not imposing laws on persons , excommunicating , depriving , and such like acts , as popes claim as belonging to them as pastours , as may appear by viewing the places ephes . . , , , , , . pet. . , , . acts . , , , . mark . . pet. . . and therefore if it prove supremacy of power , jurisdiction , and government in peter , it proves every bishop , and presbyter to be also a supreme head , and governour over the church of god. . that peter had no such headship of government , and jurisdiction given him in those words john . , . is proved by the description of the persons to whom these acts of feeding were to done , they are the little lambs and sheep of christ , not goats , now to the lambs and sheep of christ no act of lordly rule , such as imposing laws , excommunicating , depriving , or the like acts , in which the pope placeth his power of jurisdiction could be lawfully done , nor did peter any such acts : but teaching them , being guides to them , directing , exhorting and comforting them , ( which the pope regards not to do ) were to be done to them . wherefore it is plain , that lordly rule was not appointed by christ , but fatherly care and tenderness in that injunction , and that which christ enjoyned in his commission to peter is that which the pope neither regards to do , no● thinks it his work ; but another thing , to wit , princely dominion , which christ forbade . . the third thing supposed is , that because the terms are indefinite , [ my lambs , my sheep ] therefore he meant all his lambs and sheep , even the whole catholick church ; which if true , then it is false which paul saith , gal. . that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed to him , and the gospel of the circumcisiou unto peter , and vers . . james , and cephas , and john , did sin against christ's command in giving to paul and barnabas the right hands of fellowship , that paul and barnabas should go to the heathen , and james , cephas , and john to the circumcision , and paul did ill to style himself the teacher of the gentiles , tim. . . and he should have boasted in another mans line or rule , cor. . . sith all places had been within peter's line or rule , and he did ill to say , rom. . . that the grace of god was given to him that he should be the minister of jesus christ to the gentiles , and never mention peter's supremacy , no not in that very epistle which he wrote to the church of rome so much as once naming him , who was ( if papists say true ) the universal bishop and bishop of rome , and sate there at that time , when he wrote that epistle : nor doth paul salute him , when he salutes many of less note . as for that which h. t. infers from the not exempting of any , therefore he comprehends all the sheep and lambs of christ , it is very frivolous . for an indefinite term is not all one with an universal , unless the matter so require it , but in such kinde of speeche● as these it notes onely indefinite particulars , as gal. . . they agreed that we should remember the poor , that is , so many as we could ; and when christ bids , matth. . . heal the sick , cleanse the lepers , raise the dead ; it is meant without exceeption of any , yet not an injunction to heal every individual , or to raise every dead person , but such as there was occasion of healing and raising . and when mark . . the apostles are bid to preach the gospel to every creature ; the command is to preach to any one without exception , yet not to every individual , which had been impossible ; so here peter is bid to feed any indefinitely , yet not all universally ; which had been an impossible task . . it is supposed that john . , . was a commission conferring power , authority , rule , and that over the very apostles themselves , and that as a privilege conferred on peter for his special dilection of christ . whereas the thing enjoyned him is work requiring skill and care , not dignity or authority of empire , and hath nothing in it of jurisdiction , as a judge or commander , but of faithfulness and diligence as a servant and guide . and in this the apostles were equal to him . h. t. himself confesseth here , pag. . the apostles were equal in their calling to the apostleship ; to which this of feeding the sheep of christ belonged ; and therefore peter reckons himself but a fellow elder , and requires other elders to feed as well as himself , pet. . , . & acts . . the elders of ephesus are appointed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to feed the church of god , ( which is as large an exppression as is john . , . and therefore doth infer as much headship in them as in peter ) and paul counted himself not behinde the very chiefest apostles , cor. . . and peter added to ●im nothing , gal. . . and therefore paul derived nothing from him , but was equal to him . and to bid peter to feed the apostles had been to bid him feed the shepherds . the doctrine of the gospel is not termed the doctrine of peter , but of the apostles in common , acts . . even when peter had converted persons , and they were together , nor did they go to preach with peter as their shepherd , or by his direction , but by agreement , gal. . . yea , they sent peter to samaria , acts . . nor was this work of feeding , john . . . a privilege conferred on peter for his special dilection , but a task enjoyned to him because of his more open denial , three times charged on him , as he thrice denied christ , and used as a stay of peter's weakness , rather than a mark of his worthiness , much less a proof of his supremacy . sect . v. peter's charge to confirm his brethren , and his priority of nomination , prove not his supremacy . the second argument of h. t. is this , he that is by gods appointment to confirm others in the faith , and is generally set b●fore others in the scripture , must needs be greater than those others in power and dignity . but st. peter by our saviour's own appointment was to confirm the apostles in the faith , and is generally preferred before them all in the holy scriptures , therefore st. peter was above the rest of the apostles in power and dignity , and therefore the head and primate of the rest . answ . the conclusion it self might be granted , and yet the supreme headship not proved . the power ( said hart conf. with rainold , chap. . divis . . ) which we mean to the pope by this title of supreme head is , that the government of the whole church throughout the world doth depend of him : in him doth lie the power of judging and determining all causes of faith , of ruling councils as president , and ratifying their d●crees ; of ordering and confirming bishops and pastours ; of deciding causes brought him by appeals from all the coasts of the earth , of reconciling any that are excommunicate , of excommunicating , suspending , or inflicting other censures and penalties on any that offend , yea , on princes and nations ; finally , of all things of the like sort for governing of the church , even whatsoever toucheth either preaching of doctrine or practising of discipline in the church of christ . now a person may be above others in power and dignity , yea , the head and primate of them , and yet not have this power . the lord chief justice of one of the benches , the speaker of the parliament , chair-man of a committee , duke of venice , president in a council of bishops , the head of a college , the dean of a cathedral , may have power and dignity above other justices of the same bench , over counsellours in the same council , over knights and burgesses in the same parliament , prelates in the same council , fellows in the same college , canons in the same chapter , and in a sort primates and heads of the rest , yet not such supreme heads over the rest , as the popes claim to be . yea , notwithstanding such power , he may be limited so as that he cannot act without them in making any laws , or passing any sentence binding , but they may act without him , and legally proceed against him . so that the conclusion might be yielded ; and yet the popes supremacy not proved . the truth is , the pope claims such a vast and monstrous power in heaven , and earth , and hell , as exceeds the abilities of any meer mortal man to discharge , and is , as experience shews , the introduction to a world of miseries and oppresons . but let us view his proof of the power of peter , which h. t. ascribes to him . t●e major , saith he , is proved , because the stronger is not confirmed by the weaker , nor the less worthy to be set before the more worthy , generally speaking . answ . this doth not prove his major , for a person may be weaker and less worthy , and yet above others in power and dignity . queen elizabeth was a woman , and so weaker in respect of her sex , and perhaps less worthy in respect of parts than some of her great commanders and privy counsellours . will h. t. say she was below them in power and dignity ? many a father and master may be weaker and less worthy , and yet superiour in power and dignity . many a prelate is stronger in knowledge and wisdom , and more worthy in respect of holy life , than many popes , i will not onely say , than pope joan and bennet the boy , but also than pius the second or any other of the best of their popes ; and yet h. t. will not yield such prelates to be above popes in power and dignity . me thinks he should yield athanasius to be stronger and of more worth than liberius , hi●rom than damasus , bernard than eugenius , and yet he would be loath to ascribe more power and dignity to them than to the pope . nor is it true , that the stronger is not confirmed by the weaker , whether we mean it of moral or natural strength or weakness and confirmation . apollos was confirmed by priscilla , david by ab●gail , naaman by his servant . nor if by [ generally speaking ] be meant very frequently , is the speech true , that the more worthy is set before the less worthy . i think in the acts of the apostles barnabas is more often before paul than after , as acts . . & . . & . . & . , . & . . i am sure in the holy ghost's precept , acts . . whereupon they were ordained , and in the decree of the apostles , acts . . barnabas is first . will h. t. say barnabas was more worthy than paul ? me thinks a man should be ashamed to utter such frivolous toys in so weighty a matter , and fear to ascribe to a sinfull man so great and immense a dominion on such slight pretences . but how doth he prove his minor ? the minor , saith he , is proved , i have prayed for thee peter , that thy faith fail not , and then being at length converted , confirm thy brethren , st. luke . . the names of the twelve apostles are these , the first simon who is called peter , &c. st. matth. . . st. mark . st. luke . and acts the . answ . the text doth not say , confirm the apostles in the faith , nor do we finde that they did , but that he doubted as well as they , mark . . yea , there is mention of another disciples believing the resurrection afore peter , john . , . yea , paul seems to have confirmed peter in the faith , when he walked not with a right foot according to the truth of the gospel , gal. . . & acts . . paul and barnabas are said to confirm the souls of the disciples , and judas and silas did the same acts . . so that this act shewes no headship in peter , nor any privilege at all , much less such a supreme headship over the apostles , as h. t. allegeth it for , but a common duty of charity , which not onely may but must be done by an equal or inferiour , to an equal or superiour . sure , if paul had known of this as a privilege in peter he would not have said , that he went not up to the apostles before him , nor conferred with flesh and blood , gal. . . and that peter added nothing to him , gal. . . as for his being preferred generally before the rest , it is not proved by his being named before the rest : he may be named after , who is preferred before , as paul is after barnabas : nor do the four texts express a general or frequent priority of nomination , three expressing but one and the same act of christ , and the catalogue being varied in the order of the rest , some evangelists reckoning andrew next peter , sometimes james , and in like manner the order altered in some others , shews , that the order of nomination imported no privilege : yea , s●metimes peter is named after andrew , john . . who had this privilege to bring peter to christ , vers sometimes after paul and a●ollos , cor. . . & . . and other apostles , cor. . . gal. . . which shews that john and paul understood not , that any such primacy or prerogative was given to peter by his nomination first , as papists assert thence ; for if they had they would not at any time have inverted the order . and therefore however a primacy of order may be given to peter , yet . there is no necessity we should yield the acknowledgement of it to be a duty imposed , much less a perpetual privilege of right belonging to him . . that such primacy proves not any superiority of power above the apostles , no more than that the senior fellow of a college is superiour in power above the rest , because he is first written in the college book , or the fore-man in a ●ury is superiour , because he is first called . sect . vi. the late popes of rome are not successours of peter . h. t. adds , what hath been said to prove st. peter's primacy proves also the primacy of his successour the pope of rome . answ . the proof of a primacy is short of the proof a supremacy , which was the thing h. t. undertook ; there is a primacy of order , where there is not a supremacy of power . and the ancient churches which gave the bishop of rome the primacy of order afore the patriarchs of antioch , alexandria , jerusalem , and constantinople , that is , to sit in a general council highest , and to have some other privileges , yet did never acknowledge the bishop of rome their supreme head , but resisted this claim , when it began to be usurped . that primacy which was given to the bishop of rome was given him chiefly because of the dignity and power of the city : peter's name was after by ambitious popes used to serve their design in lifting up the roman bishop . but the ancients did look to the eminence of the city , as being the seat of the empire in their preferring of the roman bishops : from whence when the seat of the empire was translated to constantinople , the bishop of it was made a patriarch , equal to the bishop of rome , and for a time contended for preheminence above him . it was not at first by reason of peter's imagined headship , or any succession to him , that the bishop of rome was preferred before other patriarchs : but by reason of the amplitude and eminency of rome , as the third canon of the second constantinopolitan , and the eight and twentieth of chalcedon councils shew . as for succession to peter it is contrary to scripture , that the apostles should have successours as apostles , sith they were onely to be apostles , who were witnesses of christ's resurrection , which neither the roman bishops , nor any after the age in which the apostles lived , could be . that they were either fixed bishops of certain places , or did appoint any to succeed in their apostleship is false . all apostles were by special election of christ , those that came after were by election of men , and succeeded the apostles in preaching the gospel , but not in apostleship , nor did the apostles make bishops of certain places their successours , but every pastour , who preached the faith aright , was their successour , and so are all gospel preachers at this day . john calvin at geneva did succeed peter more truly than pope aldobrandin , or barberin , or ghisi , or any other of the popes for many hundred of years . till the popes prove themselves preachers of the gospel as peter was , they vainly talk of succession to him as of late they have been they have been successours to simon magus rather than to simon peter . sect . vii . the sayings of fathers and councils prove not peter's or the popes supremacy . of the fathers which h. t. cites for the popes supremacy the first is out of damascen a late corrupt writer , and he cites it out of pseudo dionysius the areopagite's tale proved to be such by dr. john rainold conf. with hart , chap. . divis . . and from that place , in which the contrary , to what it is alleged for , to wit , peter's supremacy , may be evinced , in that the authour , who ever he were , makes the power of binding and loosing to be given to all the apostles , there saith h. t. peter is styled the supreme and most ancient top of divines : which though it have no credit there , being too much known of the forgeries and dreams in the writings of damascen , and that countefeit dionysius : yet were it granted , that dionysius the arcopagite should have so written , as he saith he did , terming peter , the supreme and most ancient top of divines , this would not infer that he was the universal pastour of the church with such a power of jurisdiction , as this authour asserts he had over the whole church , even the apostles themselves . for this doth not express supremacy of power , but of knowledge , and asserts his eminency for understanding theology , to which me thinks h. t. should not annex the supremacy of jurisdiction and power , lest that some such as aquinas , andradius , or some other challenge the popedom , which is seldom conferred on any for his eminence in divinity , but rather the most learned divines are thought unfit for the papacy : even cicarella relates in the life of sixtus the fifth , that cardinal sirlet , though he were a man of great learning , was rejected , as not fit to be chosen pope ; such as bellarmine , tolet , baronius , are not chosen to be popes , but such crafty men as paul the third , or such stout spirits as paul the fourth , or such as are great canonists and politicians , that know the arts of the papacy better than the doctrine of christ , are chosen for popes , yea , men so ignorant in divinity , and so unfit to take the charge of souls have been chosen for popes , that of all the popes for many hundreds of years past there are but a very few who had knowledge in the mystery of the gospel , or any measure of godliness competent for a parish priest . yea , bellarmine lib. de notis eccles . cap. . is feigned to assert that there may be members of the body of christ , who are no parts of it as a living body , but onely as instruments , lest otherwise the pope being proved evil should be uncapable of being head of the church in that he is no member of christ's body , thereby making a dead equivocal member an univocal head of the universal church , being conscious that without that shift the popes would all or most of them be cashiered out of the church of christ as not so much as parts of christ's body , much less heads , by reason of their notorious pride , luxury , cruelty , perfidiousness , covetousness , blasphemy , deceit , and whatsoever vice might shew them to be children of the devil . nor do the words of irenaeus lib. . advers . haeres . cap. . in the second age , in which it is said , all churches round about ought to resort to the roman church by reason of her more powerfull principality , and that it was the greatest and most ancient , founded by peter and paul. for whether the word convenire be to be translated resort , or agree to , or go together with , ( which is somewhat uncertain ) it cannot be understood of all churches round about in all parts of the world , for that had been an impossible thing , and contrary to the intent of irenaeus in the same place who directs them that were in asia to ephesus and smyrna for the same end , but he means of the parts of the western empire , such as lyons was in france where he was bishop , and such parts as were nearer rome ; and it is manifest that he makes ro●● no more infallible than the church at smyrna or ephesus , referring the inquisitor into the tradition apostolical to apply himself to these , as well as it for information ; nor doth he make the resort to be to the church of rome always , but because at that time there was a succession of men that knew the apostles , or had the doctrine of christ delivered from them , among whom he reckons linus as made bishop by peter while he lived , and so no successour to peter ; but if peter were a bishop of rome , ( which papist say , but we deny ) there were two bishops of rome together , yea , he makes the church of rome to have been founded by peter and paul , not by peter onely , by reason of which tradition , though either false or uncertain , he judged there was the best assurance to be had of the apostles doctrine about god the creatour against valentinus , and the rather , because he was acquainted with the teachers there as he had been with polycarpus of smyrna , who was an acquaintance of john the evangelist , for which reason he directs also to him . as for the more potent principality , which irenaus speaks of , whether it be meant of the church or the state ecclesiastical or civil it is uncertain ; if of the civil principality , because then it was the seat of the empire , the necessity of resort thither must be because civil affairs would enforce them to go thither upon other occasions , and then they might inform themselves being there most commodiously ; if of ecclesiastical principality , yet there is nothing that shews it meant of universal jurisdiction and power over all churches , but of a more powerfull principality it had in clearing doctrines and ordering church-affairs in those parts by reason of the eminency of their founders , and succeeding teachers who were in those times of great note for purity of doctrine and constancy in the faith for which they were martyrs . and indeed were the question now between us and any such as valentinus or marcion concerning the doctrine which the apostles taught about another god besides the father of our lord jesus christ , and the church of rome had such bishops as then they had who had acquaintance with the apostles , or received their tradition from them so near to the apostles days as the roman bishops did then , we should also think it meet in such a point wherein we knew they were right to refer it to them to determine . but in so doing we should not acknowledg a perpetual prerogative of infallible supremacy over all the churches in the world annexed to that see , nor did ever irenaeus intend it , who is known to have opposed victor bishop of rome , when he excommunicated the asian bishops for varying from him in the keeping of easter , as eusebius reports , hist . eccles . lib. . cap. , , . the words of origen in cap. . epist ad roman . ( waving other exceptions against citations out of that commentary , as being so altered by ruffinus that we can hardly know what is origen's , what not ) were they as h. t. sets them down ( which i cannot examine now for want of the book ) yet they prove not peter's supremacy of power over the apostles . he might have the chief charge of feeding christ 's sheep , and the church be founded on him , yet have no jurisdiction over the apostles , and the church be founded on the other apostles as well as on him , as hath been shewed before in this article , sect . as for cyprian's words , calling peter the head and root of the church , cited by h. t. as in an epist . ad julian : i finde no such epistle in cyprian's works , but in an epistle ad jubian●m concerning baptism of hereticks , i finde these words about the beginning of the epistle , nos autem qui ecclesiae unius caput & radicem tenemus , that is , but we who hold the head and root of one church , &c. in which peter is not named , nor do i finde any thing that should infer that by the head and root of one church , he means peter but christ , whom in his book of the unity of the church he makes the onely head of his church , and having alleged immediately before one baptism , as it is ephes . . . it is likely he meant by one head the one lord , mentioned vers . . as after also he mentions one faith , or else the meaning is this , we have remained in the unity of the church which is one , and the head and root of the faithfull : of which several particular churches are members and branches . nor , did he call peter the head and root of the church , would it be for h. t. his purpose , unless he meant it in respect of universal jurisdiction and supremacy over the whole church belonging to him and his successours bishops of rome , which is not proved , and there may be another reason given of such a title given to peter's person onely , because of his eminent confession , matth. . . and his preaching , acts . & , &c. and though he term the church of rome peter's chair , or rather the bishoprick of rome or peter's doctrine and teaching there , yet that proves not he held the popes supremacy , but that peter's doctrine was then held there . yea , it is certain out of his treatise of the unity of the church , and his epistle to cornelius mentioned before , and his opposition to pope stephanus , that cyprian did account all bishops equal , and the bishops of africa equal in jurisdiction to the roman bishop , and the pope of rome to be but his collegue , from whom he dissents , and to whom he denied appeals , and whom he reproved of ambition and pride , when he sought to impose his judgement on others , contrary to what cyprian and a whole synod of african bishops besides asiaticks held , and therein opposed the bishop of rome . and therefore it is certain that cyprian never acknowledged the supremacy of the pope now asserted . of those which h. t. allegeth in the fourth age , not one of them giveth peter that supremacy of jurisdiction over the apostles and christians , which the romanists claim as belonging to the pope over all bishops and churches , but either a primacy of order , or preheminence of gifts , or zeal , or esteem , or use in moderating in assemblies . the words which seem to be most for it are falsly ascribed to chrysostom . for however trapezuntius have translated them , yet in the four and fiftieth homily ( as it is in eaton print ) the words are not as h. t. cites them , the pastour and head of the church was once a poor fisherman . but on matth. . . he hath these words , and i say unto thee , thou art peter , and upon this stone or rock i will build my church , that is , on the faith of confession or confessed . there he shews that many should believe , and raiseth up his minde , and makes him pastour . and after on vers . these things he promiseth to give him , to shew a fisherman stronger than any stone or rock , all the world oppugning . if optatus call peter the head of the apostles , it is meant , as is frequent in scripture and other writers , to call the forwardest , and leader , or first in order the head of the rest . but the words apostolorum caput petrus inde cephas appellatus , gives occasion to conceive these words inserted in optatus , who it is likely would not have given so inept a derivation of the word cephas , as if it were from the greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a head. the words in augustin serm. . de tempore ( not as h. t. . de . temporibus , which shews that he cites this passage without reading it , and it is likely he did so in the rest ) have no likelihood to be augustine's , those sermons being nothing like augustine's writings , nor is it likely that augustine would have called peter the foundation of unmovable faith , or have made the sin of denying christ , exiguae culpae , a small fault . the words in the eighty sixth epistle ad casulanum are either deceitfully or ignorantly alleged , they being not the words of augustine , but of urbicus , whom he refutes . for so the words are , peter also ( saith he , that is , urbicus ) the head of apostles , the door-keeper of heaven , and foundation of the church , simon being extinct , who had been a figure of the devil , not to be overcome but by fasting , taught the romans that thing , whose faith is declared to the whole world of lands . the words of augustine , of whom peter the apostle by reason of the primacy of his apostleship bore the person , &c. tract . ultimo in joannem , being recited at large are so far from proving the supremacy which romanists ascribe to him , that they are against the principal grounds , by which they endeavour to prove it , and therefore i will recite them at large . this ( following christ ) the church doth , blessed by hope in this sorrowfull life , of which church peter the apostle by reason of the primacy of his apostleship bare the person by a figured generality . for so much as pertains to him properly he was one man by nature , by grace one christian , by more abundant grace one and the same first apostle . but when it was said to him , to thee will i give the keys of the kingdom of heavens , and whatsoever thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound also in heavens , and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed also in the heavens : he signified the whole church , which in this world is shaken with divers temptations , as it were showres , flouds , and tempests , and falls not , because it is founded upon the rock , from whence peter also took his name : for the rock is not called from peter , but peter from the rock , petrus a petra , as christ is not called from a christian , but a christian from christ . for therefore , saith the lord , upon this rock will i build my church , because peter had said , thou art christ the son of the living god. therefore he saith , upon this rock which thou hast confessed will i build my church . for christ was the rock upon which foundation peter himself also was built . for no man can lay other foundation besides that which is laid , which is christ jesus . the church therefore which is founded on christ received from him the keys of the kingdom of heavens in peter , that is , the power of binding and loosing sins . for what the church is by propriety in christ , that is , by signification , peter in the rock : by which signification christ is understood to be the rock , peter the church . in which passage though there are conceits not right , yet clear it is that peter's primacy is here asserted to be onely in this that he represented the whole church , that the rock on which it is built is christ , that he had his first apostleship by more abundant grace in that he was made a figure of the whole church to signifie , its unity , that in him the whole church had the keys of the kingdom of heavens , that is , the power of binding and loosing sins : which points i presume , the romanists now will not avow . that which he cites out of the council of nice , can. . arab. is but a late devised thing those arabick canons being forged , there having been but twenty in all in that council , in the fifth of which number the pope is equalled with other patriarchs . and the council of chalcedon act. . is falsly alleged , as if it ascribed all primacy and chief honour of the pope of rome , sith it makes the pope and other patriarchs , equal in jurisdiction within their circuit or province , notwithstanding the reluctancy of the popes legates , and the flattery of some there , and that preheminence which the pope had was of order or place , not of power , nor that by divine institution for peter's sake , but by humane allowance , by reason of the dignity of the city of rome : sect . viii . the holy scriptures john . . acts . , . luke . . cor. . . overthrow the popes supremacy . h. t. adds after his fashion , objections solved . object . pilate had power over christ himself . thou shouldest not ( saith he ) have any power against me , unless it were given thee from above , john . . therefore temporal princes are above the pope . which is strengthened by christ's disclaiming a worldly kingdom , john . . saying , who made me a judge over you ? luke . . declining the being made a king , john . . answ . i distinguish your antecedent : he had a power of permission over christ i grant ; a power of jurisdiction i deny , and so do all good christians . nor is your consequence less to be denied , speaking of spiritual things , and things belonging to church-government , in which we onely defend the popes supremacy , and that without all prejudice to princes and chief magistrates in their supremacy of temporal affairs . i reply , this objection is most directly against the popes supremacy in temporal things , which this authour after hart , and sundry others , seem not to allow the pope , though carerius , baronius , bellarmine , and others defend it , places it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the third of lu. . . upon another occasion the strife of the disciples at christ's last supper who of the apostles should be the greater , our lord christ doth expresly determine , the kings of the nations , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is have dominion over them , aud they that rule over them are called benefactours , but you not so , and in all these places in the vulgar latin ( which the papists are bound to follow ) it is , dominantur corum , or eis , & potestatem exercent in eos , or potestatem habent ipsorum , or super eos , in none of the places doth that translation express the words , as importing tyrannical rule according to their own will without respect to the good of the persons ruled ; and the translating of it by h. t. [ over-rule ] and noting that it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as importing a forbidding onely to lord it over inferiours , is not right , it being in luke . . onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they have rule over them . and that where it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it doth not forbid onely tyrannical dominion , but also any dominion at all over one another is apparent from many arguments in the text. . from the occasion , which was the petition and contention , in opposition to which this answer being made christ must be conceived to forbid what they sought for , else it had not been apposite to the business : but they sought not tyrannical dominion , but the higher seat and chief dignity and power , or as christ's answer , luke . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , intimates , they strove for seniority or priority of order , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vers . . and matth. . . mark . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , shews , that the thing they sought was not supremacy , but onely priority ; therefore our lord christ forbids not onely tyrannical dominion , but the higher seat , chief dignity and power , and the affecting seniority or priority over or before one another . . from the subjects whose dominion is forbidden , who are termed not tyrants , but kings of the nations , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that have authority , luke . . in matth. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the princes , or rulers , or leaders of the gentiles , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the great ones , in mark . yet more diminutively , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , those that seem or are accounted to rule or lead the nations , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , their great ones . which terms do plainly shew that these , whose dominion was forbidden to the apostles , were the rulers which were esteemed and accepted by those to whom they were rulers , and had lawfull authority ; and therefore such rule is forbidden , as the best rulers used among the nations , and not onely tyrannical , and meer lording it over one another after their own will. . the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , however it may be sometimes meant of meer lordly forcible rule against the will and good of the person ruled , yet here it cannot be meant so , sith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to use dominion at all , and to have power at all over one another is forbidden , luke . . as well as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to have absolute , lordly , arbitrary , forcible dominion . . this is further confirmed in that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is as well forbidden as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to have authority or power , as well as to have dominion , and that which is expressed by the compound in matthew and mark is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the simple , in luke , which is used still of rule without abuse . . in luke it is forbidden to be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is a word that signifies benefactours , and though to be benefactours is not forbidden , yet it is forbidden to be so called , that is , to affect that title , which implies one to be under another , and to be beholden one to another , as persons that could gratifie one another in bestowing favours , granting petitions one to another , bestowing preferments or refuse , which doth imply superiority in some sort , and such a dependence one on another as the apostles were not to have . . the additional speech of christ commanding in stead of dominion matth. . . . rather ministery and service shews he would have none among them superiour , but all equal . . christ's propounding his own example , matth. . mark . . luke . . as that which they were to follow evinceth the same . and though it is true he was their master and lord , john . . yet both there vers , . and here he propounds himself an example onely in service . . he expresseth that which he would have them to be so emphatically , that he not onely forbids that which all counted unlawfull , to wit , tyrannical rule , but also requires in those places such a mutual debasement , voluntary subjection , condescension , ministery yielding to each other as takes away all assuming of so much as was lawfull in others , even the taking to themselves priority of order or place , precedency , seniority affected , empire or rule over one another , as the words matth. . , . mark . , . luke . . do plainly shew . this is confirmed by other places upon a like occasion , matth. . . . mark . , , . luke . , . in which places christ resolves them that they should be as a little childe , that assumes not empire , but is humble and accounts others as equal to him . . it is further evident from luke . , . . that christ having forbidden supremacy or superiority in any of them among themselves doth promise them a kingdom afterwards , and that then they should be in his kingdom , and eat and drink at his table , and sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of israel in recompense of their abiding with him in his temptations . and in very truth , if there were no more than the consideration of the present state of peter and the apostles their despised and persecuted condition and the future accidents that christ foretold should befall peter in particular , john . . and the rest of the apostles , matth. . no man could reasonably imagine that christ should make peter a visible monarch to rule the apostles and the church scattered over the world , he himself being in prison and they also , and in so remote places , he unknown to them , and they to him , they having no access or means of access to him , nor knowing where to finde him , but all judicious men must conceive that this device of peter's supremacy over the apostles and whole church given by christ is a meer impudent forgery , as was after constantine's donation to the bishop of rome , by which wicked means the popes have usurped the greatest tyranny that ever was in the world. out of all this i gather , that christ intended , . that there should be no kingdom , monarchy , or empire in any of the apostles over the rest , or any part of the church till he came ; but that their state should be a state of service in preaching the gospel , and laying the foundation of christianity till his coming . . that then he onely would be king , and they all equals , sitting upon twelve thrones with him ; and therefore that he would make none of them supreme monarch over the rest , nor vicar to himself , as the pope doth blasphemously and arrogantly challenge . and for that which h. t. saith , that christ expresly mentions a greater and a lesser , a superiour and inferiour among them , it is frivolously added , sith it is plain that what in luke is vers . . he that is greater , he that is chief , is in matthew . , . mark . . he that would be great among you , he that would be first , and that which is in matth. . , . let him be in mark . , . shall be your minister , your servant , is in luke . . let him be as the younger , as the minister ; which shews the meaning to be this , if any affect to be as the elder , greater or superiour to the rest , be so far from ascribing or yielding to him such precedency , greatness , or superiority , that my will is , that you should account of him as the younger , servant and minister to the rest , and so it shall be , ye shall be all equal , none above another . this is the very drift and purport of christ's determination , that there should be no superiority or inferiority among them , but an equality ; and that which h. t. speaks of the mention of superiority and inferiority is meant of superiority that might be affected , but not of any superiority allowed by christ , it being plainly forbidden . and for what bellarmine urgeth from the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as if christ had appointed one ruler or prince in the college of the apostles , though the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a leader , is not the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a prince , or ruler , yet if it did note princedom , it is manifested , that christ speaks of a prince among them not by due constitution , but by inordinate usurpation ; and therefore to infer from thence , as if christ would have one superiour over the rest , when he determines there should be equality , is the act of a man that is resolved to be lustily impudent . by this whole discourse the objection is fully vindicated against the shifts of h. t. and other romanists , and stands thus . that supremacy is not to be yielded to have been granted to peter which christ forbade to every one of the apostles . but to be a supreme ruler over the rest christ forbad to every one of the apostles ; therefore christ forbad peter to be a supreme ruler over the rest of the apostles . i yet add , that were it granted , that christ did onely forbid spiritual superiours to lord it over inferiours , this very grant would prove the papal supremacy , which popes claim and exercise , to be certainly forbidden . for if ever there were a superiour , that did lord it over inferiours , the pope is such a one , yea , i may aver and easily prove it , that let all the tyranny and lording , which any tyrants or princes have exercised from the beginning of the world to this day be considered , they will be found incomparable to the papal tyranny and lording over the church of god. if this be not the highest lording to impose on mens consciences such laws as christ never imposed , to enjoyn the holy , as they term it , inquisition with rigour , to excommunicate , deprive , burn men and women old and young who yield not to the popes laws , though contrary to christ's , to take on him to dispense with gods laws , to challenge the defining of all controversies , supremacy over all councils , power to depose and destroy emperours and kings , if they acknowledge not his immense power , yea , if they be not his butchers to kill their best and most peaceable subjects , if he once term them hereticks , to interdict a whole state for limiting by law donations to ecclesiasticks , and imprisoning notorious malefactours , who were ecclesiasticks , the use of divine service , to subject a king to whipping on the bare for the death of an ecclesiastick not by him killed , to depose emperours for investing bishops , to canonize saints , whom he will , to be invocated even such an one whose holiness was disobedience to his lawfull prince , and to have a feast proper to him , besides innumerable other acts done against the laws of god and man i do utterly despair ever to know what it is to lord or tyrannize over others . surely it is easier to praise busiris , or to justifie dionysius of syracuse , or nero of rome , and to acquit them from lording , than the bishop of rome for many hundreds years last past , if we stand to the relations of writers of their own church , who speak too favourably of them . h. t. proceeds . object . christ is the foundation ( of the church ) and other foundation can no man lay , cor. . . answ . other principal foundation can no man lay , i grant , other subordinate , i deny : for that he himself hath laid , peter , thou art peter , and upon this rock will i build my church , st. matth. . . and the rest of the apostles were built on the foundation of them all , although not equally , ephes . . . i reply , when it is said , christ is the foundation of the church , and other foundation can no man lay , it is meant of a principal foundation not excluding a subordinate . but sith the term [ foundation ] as hath been proved before in this article , sect. , . as applied to the apostles doth not note settling or upholding by rule or dominion , but by teaching , the papists who ascribe to the pope such a supremacy and infallibility in teaching , as is proper to christ , do lay another principal foundation besides jesus christ , not subordinate , but coordinate to him . which that they do is proved by two things , which are ascribed by them to the pope either by himself or with his council . . that they can alter the plain express precepts of christ , as namely in determining , that it is not necessary that other faithfull people besides the sacrificing priest should drink the wine in the eucharist , though the precept of christ is as express for all the faithfull drinking of it , as it is for their eating of the bread , and that it is not lawfull for a priest to marry , though the scripture expresly saith , marriage is honourable in all men , heb. . . . in enjoyning under pain of heresie , excommunication , and damnation things to be believed , and practised , which christ never enjoyned to be believed or practised , as namely , transubstantiation , the unbloody propitiatory sacrifice , properly so called in the mass , purgatory fire , confession of all a persons known sins into the ears of a priest , the keeping of the vow of a monastick profession , when the person cannot contain , and to live an idle begging life , when the person is able to work , and hath no other imployment , nor pretends to any , which is usefull to men , besides praying , which is the common duty of all christians . now surely he that takes on him to alter christ's commands , and to put his own in stead thereof doth make himself the principal foundation equal to christ , which is contrary to paul , cor. . . and to christ , matth. . , . and so makes himself a foundation co-ordinate , as indeed more than christ , however he pretend himself the vicar of christ , or the authority of the church for his warrant . as for that which is said of peter here , it was answered before , sect. , . that it doth not import any rule or dominion , but some peculiar success in his preaching , besides what others had , which was but a personal preheminence derivable to no successour , much less to the rank of roman bishops in these last ages , who never build the church by preaching , but pull down princes , and oppress those that would build up christ's church . yet it is observable , that he allegeth eph. . . to prove that the rest of the apostles were built on the foundation of them all though not equally , when the text doth not at all mention the apostles being built on the foundation , but the ephesian believers , nor are the ephesian believers said to be built on them unequally , on peter as the supreme , on others after him , but on them all without any difference , and not onely on them , but also on the foundation of the prophets , christ alone being the chief corner-stone . sect . ix . cyprian , hierome , gregory , the councils of constantinople , chalcedon , nice , are against the popes supremacy . it is added thus by h. t. object . st. cyprian ( de unit . eccles . ) says , the apostles were equal in dignity . and st. hierome affirms the church was equally founded on them all , lib. cont . jovin . answ . they were equal in their calling to the apostleship i grant , in their power of government and jurisdiction i deny : and the church was equally founded on them all before a head was constituted , i grant ; after a head was constituted , i deny , and so do the fathers , st. cyprian saying in the same place , that christ disposed the origen of unity beginning from one ( peter ) and st. hierome tells us , he chose one of the twelve , that a head being constituted , the occasion of schism might be taken away . i reply , cyprian's words in his book de unitate ecclesia , are recited above art. . sect. . in which he expresly saith thus , hoc erant utique & caeteri apostoli quod fuit petrus , pari consortio praditi & honoris & potestatis , sel exordium ab unitate proficiscitur , ut ecclesia una monstretur : that is , that verily were also all the rest of the apostles which peter was , endued with equal allotment of honour and power , but the beginning proceeds from unity , that the church might be shewed to be one . so that the very words are express , that all the apostles were not onely equal in their calling to the apostleship , but also in power and honour , and that peter was made a representative of all , ye● had no more power and honour than other apostles ; and for bishops he saith presently after , episcopatus unus est cujus a singulis in solidum pars tenetur , that is , bishoprick is but one , of which wholly or entirely a part is held by each . which words plainly shew this to be his meaning , . that the episcopacy or charge of looking to the church of christ is but one and the same in all the world , even as the church catholick is but one and the same . . that each bishop hath but his part , none the whole , none is an universal bishop over the whole church . . that each bishop , who hath his part , holds it in solidum , that is , wholely or intirely , the power and charge is as much in one as another . . that episcopacy was first invested in peter for all , that episcopacy might be one , and undivided , and the church one , so as that no church break from another , nor any bishop be above another . as for the words of hierome , lib. . advers . jovin . they are thus . at dick , super petrum fundatur ecclesia , licet idipsum in alio loco super omnes apostolos fiat , & cuncti claves regni coelorum accipiant , & ex aequo super eos ecclesiae fortitudo solidetur : tamen propterea inter duodecim unus eligitur ; ut capite constituto schismatis tollatur occasio : that is , but thou sayest ( who arguest for marriage ) upon peter ( a married man ) the church is founded , although that thing in another place is done upon all the apostles , and all receive the keys of the kingdom of heavens , and equally upon them the strength of the church is established : yet therefore among twelve one is chosen , that a head being constituted the occasion of schism might be taken away . in which words it is manifest that he makes the other apostles equally foundations of the church with peter , and to have the keys of the kingdom of heavens , and terms peter not a head in respect of power or jurisdiction over the rest , but in respect of order , that for want of it no occasion of schism might be . which to have been the minde of hierome appears fully in his epistle to euagrius , in which he determines that in the scripture bishops and elders were the same , that peter calls himself a fellow-elder , and john an elder , but after one was chosen who might be set before the rest , that was done for a remedy of schism , lest each one drawing to himself the church of christ might break it . and then he makes the church and bishop of rome equal with other churches and bishops . if , saith he , authority be sought , the world is greater than a city . wheresoever there is any bishop either at rome , or at eugubium , or at constantinople , or at rhegium , or at alexandria , or at tanis , he is of the same merit , and of the same priesthood . power of riches , and humility of poverty , makes a bishop neither higher nor lower . but all are successours of the apostles . whence these things may be inferred , . that bishops are not above elders originally . . that their superiority is by positive order . . that the apostles were elders . . that all bishops are their successours . . that the bishop of rome is not above another bishop . . that the authority of rome is less than of the world. yet further saith h. t. object . one body with two heads is monstrous . answ . not if one be principal , and the other subordinate or ministerial onely , as in our present case : so christ is the head of the man , and the man of the woman , cor. . without any monstrosity . i reply , to make a thousand metaphorical subordinate ministerial heads of the church of christ may be without monstrosity . but to make a supreme visible head over the whole church , ascribing to him such a power as agrees to none but christ , nor can be exercised by any but christ for the good of his body , hath monstrosity in it , or rather treason against christ . but such a head is the pope made by h. t. therefore this conceit of him and other papists induceth monstrosity . the minor is partly shewed before , and may be fully proved by instancing in the acts of power the pope takes to him , in defining what the whole church is to believe , what is the sense of scripture , receiving appeals from all places , judging causes , setting up and putting down kings and bishops , and many more , wherein he arrogateth and usurpeth that power to himself , which doth onely agree to christ , and can be exercised by none but him . again saith h. t. object . st. gregory rejects the name of universal arch-bishop as antichristian , lib. . indict . . epist . . answ . he rejects it as it excludes all others from being bishops , i grant ; as it onely signifies one to be supreme and above all others , i deny , and so doth he himself , saying in the same book ( epist . ) if there be any crime found in bishops , i know no bishop but is subject to the see apostolick . and lib . indict . . epist . . the care and principality of the church hath been committed to the holy apostle and prince of the apostles st. peter , yet is not he called universal apostle , as if there were no other apostles but he . you see in what sense he rejects the word ( universal . ) i reply , gregory not onely rejected the title of universal arch-bishop or patriarch , but also rejected it as proud , wicked , perverse , profane , blasphemous , aud the usurper of it as a fore-runner of antichrist , and not onely as not agreeing to the bishop of constantinople , but also as not agreeing to him or any of his predecessours , lib. . epist . . & lib. . epist . . & . none of my predecessours consented to use this profane name of universal bishop : none of my predecessours ever took upon him this name of singularity , neither consented to use it . we ( the bishops of rome ) do not seek nor yet accept this glorious title being offered unto us . nor in the sense onely as h. t. denies it due to the pope , as if it excluded all others from being bishops , but even in the sense in which the pope now usurps it . for , . he rejects it in the sense in which john of constantinople did affect it . but he did not affect it as thereby assuming to himself to be the onely bishop , but the supreme , which appears , . in that a synod of the greek bishops did agree to give it him , habita synodo seipsum patriarcham universalem creasset , that is , holding a synod he had created himself universal patriarch , platina in the life of pope gregory . but doubtless the synod would not give him the title as importing him the onely bishop , for then they should have unbishopt themselves , which neither he nor they did . . gregory when he chargeth him with his arrogating that title to himself tells john himself , lib. . epist . that he sought this title that he might seem to be under none , and he alone before all , that be endeavoured that by the appellation of universal bishop he might put under himself all the members of christ , that he desired to be called in the world not onely the father , but also the general father , that he desired by that word of elation to put himself before bishops , and to hold them under him , which shews he affected not to be accounted the onely bishop , but the supreme . . he affected no more than what after boniface the third of rome obtained of phocas , as appears by the words of platina in the life of boniface the third , who speaks thus . boniface the third a roman by countrey obtained from phocas the emperour , yet with great contention , that the see of blessed peter the apostle , which is the head of all churches should be both so called and accounted by all : which place indeed the church of constantinople endeavoured to challenge to it , sometimes evil princes favouring , and affirming that in that place should be the first see where the head of the empire was . and baronius annal. eccles . at the year . relates the decree of phocas thus , that the roman bishop alone should be called oecumenical or universal , but not the constantinopolitan . and bellarmine lib. . de pontif. rom. cap. . saith , they would equal the see of constantinople to the roman , and make it universal , speaking of the greeks in the business of john of constantinople ; whence it may be plainly gathered , that the thing which the patriarchs of constantinople affected , was not to be accounted the onely bishop , so as that none but he should be accounted a bishop , but that he should be the head or supreme of all bishops by reason of the seat of the empire there , and that this gregory disclaimed as proud . . that was affected by john , which he and cyriacus his successour used for twenty years , but neither of them used it so by word or deed , as to exclude others from being bishops as well as themselves ( for in john's own writing to them extant in the body of the romam greek law , he terms them fellow-servants , metropolitans , and bishops , to whom he writes , and others in their writings to the patriarch of constantinople , when they term him oecumenical arch-bishop , yet style themselves bishops and fellow-priests ) but they would be accounted supreme or prime bishops of the whole church , so as to be under none , but above all . . it is proved that gregory rejected the title of universal bishop in the sense of the supreme bishop , in that he , regist . lib. . epist . . resolves thus if any man accuse a bishop for whatsoever cause , let the cause b● judged by his metropolitan . if any man gainsay the metropolitan's judgement , let it be referred to the arch-bishop and patriarch of that diocese , and let him end it according to the canons and laws . and for what he addeth , that if a bishop have no metropolitan nor patriarch at all , then is his cause to be heard and determined by the see apostolick , which is the head of all churches , it is added beyond the canons of councils and laws of emperours , and though it prove that he claimed a reference of causes in difference between bishops within his patriarchate , yet not where there were other patriarchs to which the bishops were subject , much less through the whole world. and that he termeth the see of rome the head of all chuches , doth not prove a supremacy of government by any institution of christ , but a preheminence of order and some ecclesiastical privileges , by reason of that cities being the seat of the empire . and hereby is understood what h. t. cites out of the seventh book epist . . of greg. epistles , indict . . that it is not meant of all bishops universally , but of the bishops within that patriarchate , but this was in case of fault onely ; for it follows , but when no fault requires it , all according to reason of humility are equals : so that gregory doth not by that speech shew that he had an universal supreme jurisdiction and power over all churches , so as that they were subject to his commands and deteminations in points of faith , but that he accounted the african churches subject to his reproof , as he had a common care of the church every where , in which gregory himself and all other bishops and churches are subject to any bishop wheresoever . certainly gregory had most absurdly argued against the arrogance of john of constantinople , calling the title of universal bishop new , profane , proud , blasphemous , foolish , perverse , and him a fore-runner of antichrist whosoever should use it , if he had imagined it belonged to himself , or any bishop of rome . and for what h. t. allegeth , that john claimed to be universal bishop , as excluding all others , it is but an absurdity which gregory pressed him with , as following upon it , not acknowledged by john , but rather denied , as when we urge men with absurdities following their tenets which they do not own ; and how he urgeth , it appears from his words , lib. . epist . . when he saith to john , thou desirest to tread under the name of bishops in comparison of thy self , which shew that he charged him not to have affected the title of universal bishop , as if he would be the onely bishop absolutely , but comparatively to himself , in that sense as he which is singular in some thing is said to be alone , and as he who is not what he was , is said not to be ; and so gregory chargeth him as if by consequence he would exclude all others , and unbishop them in comparison . and yet if gregorie's words were understood to condemn no more than this , that any should arrogate to himself the title of universal bishop , as if he were the onely bishop and others but as his vicars or substitutes , all that gregory imputes to the use of that title in this sense falls on the late roman bishops , who deny that any bishop hath power of jurisdiction but from them , that bishops are not immediately by divine right , but mediately from the pope , concerning which what passed in the council of trent may be seen in the history of frier paul in the seventh and eighth book , in which may be seen how stifly the italians and jesuits held it , and the pope eluded the spanish bishops . lastly , that gregory did disclain such a supremacy as popes now usurp is manifest from the obedience which gregory , lib. . epist . lib. . epist . . . lib. . epist . . and elsewhere acknowledged , he did ow to mauritius the emperour as his sovereign lord , and in that epistle in which he writes to mauritius about john's usurpation by sabinian pope next after him petitions that the most pious lord mauritius would vouchsafe to judge that very business which was in controversie between john of constantinople and himself about the title of universal bishop , which he denied to jo●n or to himself : nor was gregorie's own election to the popedom counted valid without the confirmation of mauritius the emperour , as by the relation of his life in platina appears : which things are inconsistent with that doctrine which the papists now hold about the popes supremacy . h. t. adds . object . the first constantinopolitan council and the council of chalcedon decreed the constantinopolitan see to be equal with that of rome . answ . in certain privileges i grant , in original authority or jurisdiction i deny , and so doth the said council of chalcedon , saying , we throughly consider truly , t●at all primacy and chief honour is to be kept for the arch-bishop of old rome , action . nor was that canon of the council of constantinople ever approved by the pope , though it owned the church of rome to be the see apostolick , and sought but primacy in the second place and after it . i reply , . though it had been gainsaid by the bishop of rome , yet there was no reason the opposition of one bishop should weigh down the common consent of the rest . . it is apparant that the popes approbation was not then judged necessary , but that the synod could determine without him . . that canon of the first council of constantinople was not gainsaid by the pope that then was , nor many years after . . gregory the great esteemed the four first general councils as the four gospels without exempting that canon . and it is manifest that the council gave prerogatives of honour to the bishop of constantinople next after the roman , because it was new rome . and the council of chalcedon expresly determined that the bishop of constantinople should have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 equal privileges with the roman , which privileges were the same that old rome had , which could not be the first place in the council , but was power and jurisdiction , and this they determined notwithstanding the regret of the popes legates , who could not obtain any more than what was allotted the bishop of rome in the sixth canon of the nicene council , of which h. t. saith . object . the council of nice saith , let the ancient custome be kept in egypt , lybia , and pentapolis , that the bishop of alexandria hath power over all these , because the bishop of rome also hath such a custome . answ . the bishop of rome had a custome to permit such a power to the bishop of alexandria ; the greek text saith , because to the bishop of rome also this is accustomed , which argues him to be above the other . i reply , this answer is frivolous , or rather impudent . for the same thing is allowed to the bishop of alexandria , which was accustomed to the bishop of rome , but that was not a power to permit any thing to the bishops of egypt , lybia , and pentapolis , but to take care of the churches therein as their metropolitan , namely , to look to the ordination of bishops and composing of differences . and the meaning is , that each of those bishops of rome , alexandria , and antioch , should , according to the custome of the bishop of rome in his , look to the ordering of the churches each in his province , as ruffinus expresseth the canon , and the arrbick and other interpreters , and paschasinus the popes legate in the council of chalcedon alleged it thus , that the bishop of alexendria should have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 power over all , because so it was accustomed to the bishop of rome . which cannot be meant of all simply ; for then it should have been thus meant , the bishop of alexandria is to have power of all , because the bishop of rome hath power of all , and so the bishop of alexandria should be supreme bishop as the pope , and so in stead of one visible supreme head there should be more , which romanists brook not , but it must be meant of equal power and charge given to the bishop of alexandria in his province with that which by custome the roman had in his . and for the inference from the words [ because to the bishop of rome also this is accustomed ] that it argues him to be above the other , it is vain , it proving onely the bishop of rome's power to have been the pattern of the bishop of alexandria his power , but not greater , yea , it proves an equality between them , sith it ascribes the same to the one which was accustomed to the other . sect . x. of the emperour's calling councils , pope joan , papists killing princes excommunicate , not keeping faith with hereticks . h. t. proceeds . obj. the emperors heretofore called and presided in general councils . answ . they called them instrumentally i grant , by way of spiritual jurisdiction i deny . and they presided also in them for peace and ornament true ; for definition or judgement it is most false : that always was reserved to the popes . i will not sit among them as emperour ( saith constantine in his epistle to pope leo about the sixth ge●●ral council ) i will not speak imperiously with them , but 〈◊〉 one of them , and what the fathers shall ordain i will execute . emperours subscribed councils , 〈…〉 cons●itution , but execution . god ( saith constantine to the nicene council ) hath made you priests , and given you power to judge us , but you may not be judged of men . in ruffino . i reply , that the emperours called the first general councils , it is so manifest out of the writings of the councils extant , that h. t. could not deny it ; that they called them instrumentally , ( meaning doubtless as the popes instruments ) is so far from truth , that the popes sought to the emperours to call them , as leo epist . . . . and in the sixth general council at constantinople ( of which h. t. speaks ) pope agatho saith , that he took care that they should go to the council according to the command of the emperour , pro obedientia quam debuit , out of obedience he did ow to the emperour . it is true , the emperour did not call them by way of spiritual jurisdiction . we conceive not , that the calling of persons to meet to consult of matters of religion to be a point of spiritual jurisdiction , who ever he be that calls them , whether pope or emperour : calling an assembly is no part of jurisdiction at all , it may be lawfully done by a brotherly invitation in many cases , and the assembly may be by agreement without any superiority . nor is there any spirituality in it , except in reference to the end , which doth not make it an act of spiritual jurisdiction any more , than a fathers , or mothers , or masters , causing servants or children to meet to pray or learn a catechism , or when king lemuel's mother made him learn holy lessons , prov. . . h. t. here saith , the emperours subscribed to councils in order to execution : and he mentions it as allowable , which hath as much of spiritual jurisdiction as the calling of the council , and yet he will not say , it was an act of spiritual jurisdiction . and for presiding it is certain , that constantine the great did not onely for ornament or peace , but also for direction or moderating their actions preside in the nicene council , and that the emperors subscriptions were for definitions , judgement , and constitution . it is apparent from the form of their subscriptions ; nor were the councils determinations counted binding laws without the emperours confirmation , nor did the first christian emperours execute what the pope or council would have them , but the councils and popes did supplicate the emperour to execute their decrees , and sometimes did at the emperours command execute his decrees , though it is true also that the best emperours did in their presiding and calling of councils decline magisterial impositions on the consciences of bishops , and determinations of faith , but were willing to learn from them the truth , and in such matters did refer the trial of bishops to other bishops , whom they chose , as in the cause of athanasius , and sometimes to others , as in the cause of the donatists . h. t. adds . object . what think you of pope joan ? was she an universal bishop also ? answ . i think him rather a particular fool who can believe so gross a fable : it was the credulous relation of one martinus polonus a silly man ( the onely authour for it , though protestant writers have falsly cited others ) who hath sufficiently discredited his own narration ; for he tells you , she was born at mountes in england ; ( there having never been any such place ●eard of ) and that she was bred up at athens , an university not then in being , but destroyed many years before , a pretty likely tale . i reply , that it was the relation of more than one appears by platina his words , which are , fere plerique omnes affirmant , &c. almost all affirm it . protestant writers have produced rightly particularly mr. alexander cook in his dialogue of pope joan , a full jury of writers relating it , and those some of them before martinus polonus , and as credible historians , as those times yielded , besides the signs of the truth of the relation , which are vindicated by him and others from the shifts by which onuphrius and such like dawbers have endeavoured to evade their testimony . and me thinks h. t. writes too grosly in conceiving him a particular fool that can believe it , when platina , sabellicus , antoninus , leonicus chalcondyla , marianus scotus , sigibertus gemblacen●is , matthaeus palmerius , volateranus , nauclerus , christianus massaeus , joannes parifiensis , theodoricus niem , ravisius textor , and others could believe it . as for the exceptions here made , it is not true , that martinus polonus saith , that pope joan was born at mountes ( he would say m●ntz ) in england , the words are jo●nnes anglicus natione moguntinus , that is , john english by nation of mentz , which may be true , that she had the name of english by descent , yet born at mentz in germany , as many a man born in england hath the name of irish , scot , french , and i think turbervile is a norman name , yet presume henry turbervile was born in england . and for athens , that it was then destroyed , and no university is affirmed by him , not proved , but the contrary is shewed to have been probable out of the subscription of the sixth council , by the seventh council , out of paulus acmylius , and others by bishop jewel defence of the apol. part . . ch . . divis . . h. t. adds . object . you roman catholicks , as i have heard , ( if the pope excommunicate a tyrant or heretical prince ) hold it lawfull for his own subjects to kill him . answ . you have heard a loud slander , we abominate and detest the doctrine . it is defined by the council of constance , and therefore of faith with us , that it is heretical to affirm it lawfull for a subject to kill his prince upon any pretence whatsoever . sess . . i reply , what you now hold i know not , there are causes of jealousie of you , that having found it disadvantageous to you , you disguise your selves and conceal your opinions till it may be for your advantage . but sure heretofore the many attempts against queen elizabeth by popish priests , especially of the jesuites order , some whereof were with the privity or instigation of cardinals , if not popes of rome , the seditious writing of william allen , who was therefore thought fit by the pope to be made a cardinal , with parsons , creswell , and such like , the bull of pope pius the fifth , the gun-powder treason against king james , and the parliament . with the acts and speeches of faux , garnet , greenwell , hall , and others , and pope paul the fifth his breves against taking the oath of allegeance with bellarmine's letter , and the writings thereupon did make it appear then , that , how loud soever it might be , yet it was no slander to charge roman catholicks with that doctrine . the praising of james clement's fact in killing henry the third of france by pope six●us the fifth , the attempt of peter barrier , of john chastel a novice of the jesuits , and the execrable murder of henry the fourth by ravillac confessed to have been by the instigation of jesuits , and mariana's book , with many other things caused the university and parliament of paris to charge some roman catholicks with that doctrine : which it 's not likely they would have done , and the king a while banish the jesuits had there not been sufficient proof . yea since that time the books of bellarmine , and santarellus have been condemned by the university and parliament of paris , as teaching that doctrine , and yet more books have been vented tending to the same , as in the writings of suarez and other jesuits may be found . nor did i ever hear , that the pope did by punishing the traitors in england when they fled to rome , or by condemning the jesuits doctrine of killing kings acquit roman catholicks from this accusation . yea whereas king james towards the end of his reign propounded nine questions to be answered by john fisher the jesuit , it is observed by dr. francis white , that he doth decline to answer directly the ninth question about deposing kings and giving away their kingdoms , alleging that it touched a controversie between the pope and princes , in which he makes shew of loathness to interpose , having a letter dated , aug. . . from the general of his order not to write any thing thereof , having found it an unhappy course , but never declared against it , nor took the oath of allegeance , though the state knew it was easie for their general to alter the order , or to make an other order in private , and whatever order their general give , yet they are tied to do what the pope requires of them . and the answers of the jesuites about santarellus his book approved by their general , that they in france then disavowed the book , yet withall acknowledged , if they had been at rome they would have done as their general did , shewed that they had disavowed that doctrine out of fear , and that at rome it was held for cu●●e●t . what they still hold may be seen in the mystery of jesuitism , and other writings . as for what h. t. allegeth out of the council of constance it satisfieth not , sith all roman catholicks allow not that council , which deposed the pope and chose another , and determined the council to be above the pope , yea , mariana de rege , &c. lib. . cap. . answers thus , but that decree i finde not approved by martin the fifth the roman pope . nor indeed can papists hold that which h. t. sets down as the council of constance's definition , but that they must gainsay what the fourth lateran council under innocent the third determined concerning the rooting out of hereticks . nor are princes secured by the determination of the council of constance , or h. t. his avouching it to be of faith , sith perhaps it is but one doctor 's opinion , or if it be the faith of more or all , yet they can hold king killing , and yet hold that doctrine , alleging that a priest is no subject , nor a person excommunicate his prince , and that however he may not kill him upon any pretence whatsoever , yet he may do it upon the popes excommunication as a just sentence of a superiour judge ; the words in that council , sess . . ( left out here by h. t. whether fraudulently or no , his own conscience can tell best ) being , non expectata sententia , vel mandato judicis cujuscunque , the sentence or mandate of any judge whatsoever being not expected , which have a shew of limiting their other words , and intimate their allowing the killing of a prince , when there is a mandate or sentence of a judge , such as they conceive the pope to be . nor have we any cause of confidence in h. t. as free from such devices , if we mark what follows . object . mariana the jesuit printed the opinion . answ . true , by way of probleme he did , but his book was condemned and publickly burnt by a provincial council of his own order . i reply , doth h. t. think the book is not now to be seen to detect his falsity ? or that the memorials of these things are lost , who goes about to excuse mariana or the order of jesuits in this manner ? mariana did in his first book of the institution of a king , chap. . write that james clement by killing henry the third king of france with a poisoned knife had gotten himself ingens nomen , a great name , that we consider from all memory that they were greatly praised who attempted to kill tyrants , and that it is a wholesom cogitation , that princes be perswaded if they oppress the common-wealth , if they be intolerable in vices and filthiness , that they live in such a condition that not onely of right , but with praise and glory they may be killed . which that they were more than a probleme appears from his own words , this our sentence certainly comes from a sincere minde . and the sad event of ravillac's killing henry the fourth of france by the inducement of that book , and the edict of the parliament of paris the eighth of the ides of june , . set down in the continuation of thuanus his history , tom. . lib. . upon which his book was adjudged to be burnt : but that his book was burned by a provincial council appears not , nor is it set down by h. t. when nor where , nor is it likely to have been burnt by a provincial council till after the sentence of the parliament of paris , that thereby they might salve the credit of their order . but it is added . object . at least you hold the pope can dispense with your allegeance to princes , and if ●e dispense you are not bound to keep any faith with them or any hereticks . answ . we hold that our allegeance to princes is not dispensable by any authority on earth ; and are as ready to defend our prince or civil magistrate with the hazzard of our lives and fortunes even against the pope himself if he invade them , as against any other enemy . we esteem our selves obliged to keep faith even with infidels : and the council of trent hath declared , that to violate any least point of publick faith given to hereticks is a thing punishable by the law of god and man , sess . . what this or that particular doctor may hold , or the popes flatterers , if he have any , adds nothing to the creed of catholicks , nor is it justly chargeable on the whole church . i reply , i am glad to read this passage , if this authour mean plainly , as his words seem to import : yet see not sufficient security to princes given thereby , though this authour should mean so . for other romanists may say as this authour doth of others , what this or that particular doctor holds adds nothing to the creed of catholicks , nor is it justly chargeable on the whole church . nor is this protestation so full as to leave no starting hole from it , if it be for advantage . it may mean , they will defend their prince who is their prince , yet not acknowledge allegeance to their prince , as being exempt from his jurisdiction as clergy-men , or their prince ceasing to be their prince being an heretick , or excommunicate , or worthy to be excommunicate , or they will defend their prince against the invasion of the pope , but not against the sentence of deposition , or they will defend him till they judge him an enemy to the faith or catholick church , but not any longer . and this authour may , as some in case of marriage conceive he is obliged to keep faith with in●idels , and yet not with hereticks . and for the determination of the council of trent , sess . . . neither durst protestants then trust to the safe conduct then given , and before and since sad instances of papists perfidiousness have given too much occasion to protestants to suspect the lurking of a snake under the grass , i mean some hidden deceit under a covert of fair words , especially when we consider this authour a little before counted the definition of the council of constance to be of faith , sess . . . in which sess . . that council ( as it is in binius ) hath these words , the present holy synod doth declare , that no prejudice to the catholick faith , or to ecclesiastick jurisdiction is generated , or impediment can be , or ought to be made by any safe conduct granted by the emperour , kings , and other secular princes to hereticks , or defamed of here●ie , thinking so to recall the same from their errours , with whatsoever bond they have bound themselves , but that , the said safe conduct notwithstanding , it may be lawfull for a competent judge , and ecclesiastick to inquire of the errours of such persons , and otherwise duly to proceed against them , and to punish them , as much as justice shall perswade , if they shall refuse stifly to revoke their errours , although trusting to their safe conduct they have come to the place of judgement , who otherwise would not have come : nor doth he that so promiseth , when he hath done what lies in him remain obliged by this in any thing . which surely amounted then to as much as this ( and hath been thousands of times objected by princes and others ) that publick faith is not to be kept with hereticks . and how little reason protestants have to trust papists not onely the actions of former papists for a thousand years past , but also of late their actings in ireland , poland , piedmont , shew . whom he means by the popes flatterers , or particular doctors , i do not well understand : should he call bellarmine , baronius , or such like men so , perhaps he may be served as francis a st. clara and others were . i judge h. t. to be a gross flatterer in maintaining the popes supremacy and infallibility , there being in this tenet no better than blasphemous antichristian flattery , ascribing to some of the worst and oftentimes most ignorant men that which is due to the son of god. and for his corollary , i deny the major and minor both , sith that may be a true church which hath neither local personal succession , nor conspicuous visibility , nor such unity , universality , infallibility , sanctity , power of miracles , universal bishop as h. t. requires as necessary to a true church , nor hath he made it plain , that these marks do agree to the present roman church or bishop , and no other , but his mistakes in these are shewed . i follow him in the rest . artic . viii . unwritten tradition now no rule of faith. the unwritten tradition , which h. t. terms apostolical , is not the true rule of christian faith. sect . i. the argument for apostolical tradition unwritten as the rule of faith from the means of planting and conserving faith at first is answered . h. t. intitles his eighth article of apostolical tradition , and saith , our tenet is , that the true rule of christian faith is apostolical tradition , or a delivery of doctrine from father to son , by hand to hand , from christ and his apostles , and nothing ought to be received as faith , but what is proved to have been so delivered , which we prove thus . the first argument . that is now the true rule of faith which was the essential means of planting and conserving it at first : but oral and apostolical tradition , not written books , was the essential means of planting and conserving it at first ; therefore oral and apostolical tradition not written books is the true rule of faith. the major is proved , because the rule of faith must be immutable , and the same in all ages , as the faith it self is . the minor is proved , because the first gospel was not written till eight years after the death of christ or thereabouts ; in which space the apostles had preached and planted the faith of christ in many nations over almost all the world. add to this that many ages were passed before all the books of scripture were dispersed and accepted for canonical by the whole church ; so that when any difference arose in points of faith among the christians of the first age they were not to inquire what had been written , but whether the apostles so taught . answ this doctor , whether it be by reason of his ignorance , or heedlesness , or malignity to the holy scriptures , determines worse than his fellows , yea , against the doctrine of the trent council and pope pius the fourths bull. for whereas in the trent council , sess . . it is said , that the truth and discipline of christ and his apostles is contained in written books and traditions without writing , and would have both to be received with equal affection and reverence of piety ; and pope pius the fourth his bull requires the admission of the sacred scripture and apostolical tradition . h. t. concludes , that written books are not the true rule of faith , but oral and apostolical tradition . if he had said , they had not been the entire rule of faith he had agreed with the trent council , and the popes bull ; but now he contradicts them as well as the protestants , and his argument doth as well conclude , that the holy scripture is no part of the rule of faith , as that it is not the whole . but leaving him to be corrected by his fellows , let 's view his dispute . setting aside his non-sense speech of being received as faith , in stead of being received as the object of faith , and taking apostolical tradition to be meant of that which is truly so called , i grant his tenet , and say with him that the true rule of christian faith is apostolical tradition , that is , the doctrine which the apostles delivered , or that delivery of doctrine from father to son , by hand to hand , from christ and his apostles , and that nothing ought to be received as faith , that is , a thing to be believed with a christian divine faith , which all christians are bound to believe , but what is proved to have been so delivered . for though in general any divine revelation is to be the object of christian faith by whom or what way soever it be delivered , and god hath delivered divers revelations in the books of the old testament , which are objects of faith , yet sith now christ and his apostles have delivered those divine revelations as the oracles of god , and what the apostles preached and thought needfull for us to know , and believe to salvation is written , and these writings are conveyed from father to son by hand to hand , we grant the tenet being meant of them , and yield further , that if they can prove there are traditions truly apostolical besides those which are written , and this tradition , that those books which we call holy scripture are divine writings , we will embrace them as things to be believed . but then , . we say it is manifest that in the apostles days there were traditions put on the apostles which were not theirs , thess . . . that the apostolical tradition written is sufficient for faith to salvation . . that unwritten traditions are uncertain , and much corrupted . . that there is no certain rule to know which are apostolical traditions but by the scripture or apostolical writings . . that neither the popes nor church of rome nor general councils determination is a sufficient assurance of apostolical tradition unwritten . . that therefore to us now the holy scripture is the onely rule of christian faith and life . and to the argument of h. t. i answer , . by denying the major , giving this as a reason , because the means of planting and conserving faith , though it were the essential means , yet is not the rule of faith necessarily , there being great difference between these two . the means of faith is any way god useth to beget it , as by dreams , visions , the speech of balaam's ass , his prophecy , caiaphas prophecy , the star which guided the wise-men , matth. . the wives good conversation , pet. . . yet these are not the rule of faith , but the divine revelation it self . and if it were supposed any one of these , or any other , were the essential means of faith , that is , that means by which faith is , and without which it were not , yet it were not therefore the rule of faith , but the divine revelation or truth delivered by that means . and to the proof of the major which seems to be thus formed , that is the true rule of faith which is immutable , and the same in all ages , as the faith it self is . but the essential means of planting and conserving it at first is immutable , and the same in all ages , as the faith it self is . ergo. i answer , . by denying the major , there are many things immutable , and the same in all ages , as the faith it self is , and yet are not the true rule of faith , as namely , gods decrees and purposes , the being of the heavens , the obedience of the angels , &c. . by denying the minor. for whether the immediate declaration of god to adam , gen. . . or christ's preaching by himself were the essential means of planting and conserving faith at first , or any other , yet it is not immutable , and the same in all ages , as faith it self . god's declaration immediately , or christ's preaching by himself are not the same in all ages ; yea , heb. . . it is said , that god hath spoken to us in divers manners , ways and times by the prophets , and in these last days onely hath spoken to us by his son , vers . & chap. . . the salvation was at first begun to be speken by the lord , and since was confirmed by them that heard him : which shews the means to be variable , by which faith is planted and conserved . the apostle tells us , pet. . . that without the word those that believe not the word may be won by the conversation of the wives : so that their good conversation was at first a means of converting them , and yet that was not to be the rule of their faith. whence it may appear that this argument goes upon these false suppositions . . that there is some means essential to the planting and conserving of faith at first . . that the same means is essential to the planting and conserving of faith at first . . that this means is immutable and the same in all ages as faith it self . . that what is the means of planting and conserving faith at first must be the true rule of faith. . i deny the minor , that oral and apostolical tradition , not written books , was the essential means of planting and conserving faith at first . and to his proof i answer , that by oral and apostolical tradition , in his tenet he means , a delivery of doctrine from father to son , by hand to hand , from christ and his apostles : now if it be granted , there was no gospel written till eight years after the death of christ , or thereabouts , it must be granted also , that there was no delivery of doctrine from father to son , by hand to hand , from christ and his apostles , but onely their preaching viva voce , with living speech , in their own persons , and therefore if that which was according to h. t. the essential means of planting and conserving faith at first must be the true rule of faith still , and no other , then that rule must neither be unwritten nor written delivery of doctrine from father to son , by hand to hand , from christ and his apostles , but their own personal tradition viva voce , which now ceasing there is no rule of faith at all left ; but the quakers device of each mans light within him to be his rule must take place . but to me the rule of faith is divine revelation , by what means soever it be delivered : be it the law written in the heart or in the book , by the signer of god in tables of stone , or delivered by an angel in a dream , vision , apparition , by christ , or his apostles , or any other . but sith god hath been pleased to order it , be it sooner or later , that what christ and his apostles taught should be written , we are assured god would have us to take it for the rule of our faith , and if scripture be not the rule of our faith christ and his apostles did not well to commend it to us , luk. . . joh. . . and to commend them that searched the scriptures , act. . . nor the apostles to direct us to them , pet. . , . tim. . . rom. . . nor to allege them , act. . . & . , , . nor christ to have used them against the tempter , matth. . . . . nor to have imputed errour to the ignorance of them , matth. . nor to have sent the revelation of john to the seven churches of asia , with declaration of blessedness to the observers of it , and denunciation of a curse to the corrupters and infringers of it , revel . . , . & . , . nor the apostles to write a letter to the churches , act. . . nor the apostles to write several epistles to several churches . and if many ages ( though i think h. t. therein doth exceed ) were passed before all the books of scripture were dispersed and accepted for canonical by the whole church ; yet it is certain some were , and they must be the rule of faith which were accepted . and when any difference arose in points of faith among the christians of the first age , though they were to inquire of the apostles what they taught , yet when they could not speak with them , they made use of their letters written , as acts . . cor. . &c. and if we are not to do so still , why doth this authour allege scripture for the churches infallibility , the popes supremacy , &c. and tells us here , pag. . there is no better way to decide controversies than by the scripture expounded by the church , and according to the rule of apostolical tradition ? but this is an evidence of gods infatuating these romanists , that though they have no shew of proof for peter's supremacy , and consequently the popes , without the scripture , and therefore allege it , yet determine it not to be the rule of faith , and so make void their own proof , and the very rule of faith , which they would fain establish . sect . ii. unwritten traditions are not proved to be the true rule of faith from the assurance thereby of the doctrine and books of christ and his apostles . but let us view what he adds . a second argument is , that is the true rule of faith by which we may be infallibly assured both what doctrines christ and his apostles taught , and what books they wrote , and without which we can never be infallibly assured of these things . but by apostolical tradition we may infallibly be assured both what doctrines christ and his apostles taught , and what books they wrote , and by no other means . therefore apostolical tradition is the true rule of faith. the major is manifest , because in the doctrine which christ and his apostles taught , and the books which they wrote are contained all things that are of faith ; therefore the infallible means of knowing them is the infallible and true rule of faith. the minor is proved , because a full report from whole worlds of fathers to whole worlds of sons of what they heard and saw is altogether infallible , since sensible evidence in a world of witnesses unanimously concurring is altogether infallible , how fallible soever men may be in their particulars ; and such a report , such an evidence is apostolical tradition , for all the doctrinos christ and his apostles taught and all the books they wrote therefore infallible . answ . the popish tenet is , that unwritten traditions of other points than what are in the written books are the rule of faith , that so what they cannot prove out of scripture of peter's being at rome , being bishop there , purgatory-fire , invocation of saints , adoration of the host , mixing water with wine in the eucharist , and many more , which popes and popish councils obtrude on the church of god as apostolical traditions , may be received as objects of faith. but here h. t. concludes apostolical tradition is the true rule of faith , and proves it of no other apostolical tradition but that whereby the books written are known to be the apostles , which i might grant , and yet h. t. gain nothing for his purpose , sith apostolical tradition may be the true rule of faith , and yet not apostolical tradition unwritten , much less that which popes and councils call apostolical tradition , which is every corruption that hath been any long time received in the roman church : and this apostolical tradition infallible [ that the books of holy scripture were written by the holy men whose names they bear , and that the things in them related are certain ] and yet other traditions of other things not so . but to his argument , i say , the major is not true , nor is it proved by his reason , which in form is this , that is the true rule of faith in which are contained all things that are of faith. but in the doctrines which christ and his apostles taught , and the books which they wrote , are contained all things that are of faith. the conclusion which followeth from these premises is not his major , [ that is the true rule of faith , by which we may be infallibly assured both what doctrines christ and his apostles taught , and what books they wrote , and without which we can never be infallibly assured of those things ] nor the conclusion set down , [ therefore the infallible means of knowing them is the infallible and true rule of faith ] for these terms , [ that by which we may be assured of the doctrines or books , the infallible means of knowing them ] are not the same with [ the books or doctrines in which are contained all things that are of faith ] and therefore the major is not proved , but indeed the very protestant doctrine which he gainsays is proved unawares thus . that in which are contained all things that are of faith is the true rule of faith. but in the doctrines which christ and his apostles taught , and the books which they wrote , are contained all things that are of faith ; therefore the doctrines which christ and his apostles taught , and the books which they wrote , are the true rule of faith. which proves directly what h. t. denies , that the scripture is the true rule of faith , and shews , that he mistook the means of faith for the rule of faith , between which there is manifest difference , the means of faith being any outward or inward efficient , principal or instrumental , by which a person comes to believe , the rule is that by which we know what we are to believe : the same means may be the means of believing contrary things : caiaphas and balaam may prophesie right things of israel , and be a means of expectation of the messiab , and yet also be a means of laying a stumbling-block to overthrow them . a messenger , that brings a grant , wherein a prince grants a thing , is the means of belief , and so is the seal , but the rule of believing is the words of the grant : thomas his seeing and feeling were the means of his believing christ's resurrection , but the rule was christ's words . . i deny his minor. for though i grant such a full report , as he speaks of , is infallible , nor do i deny , that there is such a a report , or such an evidence for all the doctrines christ and his apostles taught , and all the books they wrote , yet i say , . that this is not the apostolical tradition , which papists assert ; for with them any thing used in their church a long time , and approved by a pope , or a council confirmed by him is an apostolical tradition , though it have not such report , or evidence . . that there are other means by which we may be assured , what doctrines christ and his apostles taught , and what books they wrote , besides this full report , as , . the inward testimony of the holy spirit . . the innate characters of the doctrine , and books themselves foretelling things to come , opening the mysteries of god , advancing gods glory , enlightning and converting the soul , with many more which shew whos 's the doctrine and books were . yet by the way i observe , . that notwithstanding he makes here such an infallibility in the report and evidence of sense , yet pag. . he denies evidence of sense infallible in the sacrament , and thereby overthrows his position here . . from his words here i argue against his opinion of transubstantiation thus , a full report from whole worlds of fathers to whole worlds of sons of what they heard and saw is altogether infallible , since sensible evidence in a world of ey-witnesses unanimously concurring is altogether infallible , how fallible soever men may be in their particulars . but there are worlds of ey-witnesses , and hand-witnesses , and tongue-witnesses , and nose-witnesses , and ear-witnesses of fathers and sons who all unanimously concurring discern , and say of what they have seen , felt , heard , tasted , smelled , that there is no flesh nor blood , but bread and wine in the consecrated host , therefore the report that there is no flesh and blood but bread and wine in the eucharist after consecration or consecrated host , and consequently no transubstantiation is altogether infallible . so inconsistent are this authours sayings in one place with that he saith in another , as indeed popish doctrine being a lie must of necessity be self-repugnant . sect . iii. the obligation of the church not to deliver any thing as a point of faith , but what they received , proves not unwritten traditions a rule of faith. h. t. proceeds thus . a third argument . if christ and his apostles have given to the church of the first age [ together with all points of faith ] this for the rule of faith , that nothing on pain of damnation ought to be delivered for faith , but what they had received from them as such , then is was impossible that they should deliver any thing for faith to the second age , but what they had received from them as such , and so from age to age to this time . but christ and his apostles did give to the church of the first age , [ together with all points of faith ] this for the rule of faith , that nothing on pain of damnation ought to be delivered for faith , but what they received from them as such . therefore it was impossible that the church of the first age should deliver any thing to the church of the second age for faith , but what they had received as such from christ and his apostles , or consequently that they should erre in faith. the major is proved , because to make her deliver more for faith than she had received , in this supposition the whole church must either have forgotten what she had been taught from her infancy in matters of salvation and damnation , which is impossible in a world of ear and ey-witnesses , as hath been shewed ; or else the whole church must have so far broken with reason , which is the very nature of man , as to conspire in a notorious lie to damn her self and posterity by saying she hath received such or such a point for faith , which in her own conscience she knew she had not received ; and this is more impossible than the former , even as impossible as for men not to be men ; as shall be shewed in the next argument . the minor is proved by these positive texts of scripture , therefore brethren stand ye fast , and hold the traditions which ye have learned , whether by word or our epistle , thess . . . those things which ye have been taught , and heard , and seen in me , these do ye , phil. . so we have preached , and so ye have believed , cor. . . how shall they believe in whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ? rom. . . the things that thou hast heard of me before many witnesses , the same commend thou to faithfull men , which shall be fit to teach others also , tim. . . if any man shall preach otherwise than ye have received , let him be anathema , gal. . . although we or an angel from heaven preach to you besides that which we have preached to you , be he anathema , gal. . . answ . . the conclusion , were it granted , is not the position to be proved , that the true rule of christian faith is apostolical oral tradition , not books ; nor is it included in it , sith some in the church , although not the whole church of the first age , might deliver to the church of the second age , and so from father to son that for faith , which was not received from christ or his apostles , and it be after received as from the apostles , as is manifest in the reports of keeping easter on the fourteenth of the moon , of the millenary opinion , as from john , and in points of faith the whole church might mistake or forget , not deliver all truth , yea , might erre , and so not be fit to be a rule of faith. . were it granted that unwritten traditions of the whole church of the first age to the second were a rule of faith , yet are not the romanists traditions unwritten proved rules of faith , unless they be proved to be delivered by the whole church of the first age to the church of the second age , and so from father to son without alteration , which they cannot prove . nevertheless , sith this argument tends to the asserting of an infallibility in the church of the first age distinctly taken from the apostles and their writings ; i grant the minor , and omit the examining of the texts brought to prove it , though some of them yield a good argument against unwritten tradition : but i deny the major , as being contrary to experience both in the jewish church , to whom it was forbidden to add to , or diminish from gods commands , deut. . . and yet they did , mark . . . and in the christian church , as is most evident in the traditions of the chiliasts , about easter , and sundry other things . and though the whole church of the first age did not deliver points of faith to the second age , yet in the second and after-ages corruptions did come in , which were taken for universal traditions , as in giving infants the eucharist , which augustine and pope innocentius took for an apostolical tradition , though the trent council condemn it . and many things there are now taken for apostolical traditions , as worship of images , praying to saints , not allowing the wine to be drunk by all the communicants , which yet are manifestly repugnant to the apostles doctrine . as for the proof of h. t. i say , . the eye and ear-witnesses of all the points of faith are not a whole world. . errours may be traduced as from the whole church of the first age , and from the apostles which were not from them . . the church delivers not doctrines , but the teachers in them , whereof many sometimes are hypocrites , sometimes weak in understanding , all of them being men are liable to mistakes , passion , forgetfulness , inadvertency , and those that are not sincere may against their conscience deliver errours . sure if polycarpus an auditour of john the evangelist , and anicetus bishop of rome in the second age , polycrates and pope victor in the same age , cyprian and pope stephanus in the next contradicted each other about traditions , no marvel later and inferiour teachers , such as papias a credulous man , and others mistook about them , and the after churches follow them in their mistakes . . the churches were in the apostles days easily drawn away from the doctrine , which paul had evidently taught them by hearkening to seducers , as the galatians , gal. . . though the apostle warned them gal. . , . neither therefore the warning given them , nor any state of the church in this life yields sufficient security of not being deceived , nor deceiving others . the church and teachers thereof may not onely be men , and have reason , but also good men and conscionable , and warned not to deliver any thing but christ's and his apostle's doctrine to be believed under pain of damnation , and yet may build hay and stubble , and be saved as through fire , though their building suffer loss , keeping the foundation , and repenting of all sins and errours , though some be secret and unknown to them . let us see what is in the next argument , which he terms the last argument for traditions . sect . iv. counterfeits might and did come into the church under the name of apostolick tradition without such a force as h. t. imagines necessary thereto even in points of faith. to make , saith h. t. a whole world of wise and disinterested men break so far with their own nature as to conspire in a notorio●n lie to damn themselves and their posterity ( which is the onely means to make an apostolical tradition fallible ) such a force of hopes or fears must fall upon them all at once , as may be stronger than nature in them . but such a force of hopes or fears can never fall on the whole world or church at once , which is dispersed over all nations , therefore it is impossible for the whole world or church at once to conspire in such a lie , or consequently to erre in faith. answ . this argument concludes for the churches infallibility , which was the fifth article , not for traditions , as is pretended in this article . but that the church militant and all their teachers setting aside the apostles , are fallible is proved before , and how the whole church of later ages may be not onely fallible , but also deceived and deceive others without breaking with their own nature so far as to conspire in a notorious lie to damn themselves and their posterity , and without such a force of fears or hopes falling upon them all at once as may be stronger than nature to them , hath been shewed before both by reason and experience , and our lord christ hath told us it would be , that while men sleep the enemy would come and sow tares , matth. . . and the apostle tells us , cor. . . that there must be heresies by gods permission , that they which are approved may be made manifest : jude . there were certain men crept in unawares ordained of old to this condemnation : pet. . . john . . and accordingly it fell out in the christian church , as eusebius notes out of egesippus lib. . hist . cap. . the church of christ remained a pure and uncorrupt virgin unto the times of the apostles , but after their decease , and those that heard them , there was a conspiracy of corrupters , which did lurk before that boldly vented knowledge , falsly so called , much of which was published under the name of apostolical tradition . irenaeus lib. . advers . haeret . cap. . saith , in his days it was reported as from john , that christ lived to the fiftieth year of his age by all the elders of asia , which met with john the disciple of the lord , that john delivered it to them . nor is this to imagine men to break with their nature , but to follow their nature , which is in all corrupt , in the best imperfect . as for what h. t. tells us of a whole world of wise and disinterested men , it is an utopia in a countrey called no where , but in h. t. his brain . surely the wisest and disinterested men of fathers and other preachers have still stood to the scriptures , and have disowned unwritten traditions , as not being a true rule of faith. popes and popish councils who have been the sticklers for traditions unwritten , as they have been none of the wisest with any holy wisdom , but serpentine craft , so have they bent all their endeavours to uphold traditions for their interest of greatness and gain , being necessitated to 〈◊〉 unwritten traditions , because their doctrines cannot be maintained out of scripture . he that shall reade the history of the council of trent written by frier paul of venice ( in which council traditions unwritten were first equalled to scripture ) may perceive , that if ever there were a pack of deceivers and deceived men it was at trent , the bishops generally being unlearned in the scriptures , many of them meer canonists , and such as understood not the disputes in the congregations , and the divines a company of wrangling sophisters inured onely to school-principles and arguings without skill in the scriptures , and the popes legates and italian bishops depending on the court of rome , never applying themselves to search out truth , but to hinder any the least breaking forth of it , if it opposed any profit or advantage of the popes and court of rome , and any thing that tended to justifie the protestants , whom they would never permit to speak for themselves : nor were they willing any thing should be concluded , but what the pope ( of all that ever were in the world the most notorious corrupter and tyrant in the church of god ) liked . and he that shall reade the book not long since published , intituled the mystery of jesuitism , will finde , that the chiefest leaders now in the popish churches , the jesuits , who are for the traditions of the church of rome , are wholly bent , though against scripture and fathers , to carry on their own interest by any devices whatsoever without regard either to rules of scripture or of morality delivered by infidel philosophers . so that the talk of h. t. concerning a world of wise and disinterested men among popish teachers is like the talk of a company of honest women in a society of notorious whores , or of just men in a band of robbers . h. t. adds . it is the assurance of this impossibility that moves the church of the present age to resolve her faith and doctrines into the precedent age , and so from age to age , from sons to fathers up to the mouth of christ and his apostles teaching it , saying , we believe it because we have received it . answ . . this resolution of faith not into the scriptures testimony , but the testimony of the next age , and so upwards , and thereby judging what christ and his apostles taught , can beget no other than a humane faith , sith in this way christ and his apostles are supposed to teach what the succeeding ages have taught : nor is it any better than an uncertain way , sith in some ages it cannot be known what was taught in many points of controversie , for as much as this authour confesseth , pag. . there was no general or provincial council that decided any controversies of moment in the tenth age , which and the next before it are by genebrard and bellarmine counted unhappy for want of learned men : nor can this be any other than a fraudulent device to draw men from immediate searching into the scriptures for their faith , and prepossessing them with the doctrines of the present age , which once received , very few , except men very learned and impartial inquisitours into the truth , will be able to examine , and in effect that which the pope and his council have or shall determine must be taken for unquestionable : nor is this reasonable , but against all right way of understanding , that we should apply our selves to know what christ and his apostles taught sixteen hundred years ago , rather by the present and precedent ages after the times wherein they lived , than by their own wri●ings ; as if a man might better know what legacy his great grand-father ●ave an hundred years ago by the testimony of men now living , than by his ●wn will upon record . . the pretence for this resolution is but imaginary and fictitious , and refuted by experience . surely if there were such an impossibility as this authour speaks of , the whole world had not been corrupted as it was in noa●'s and abraham's days , nor the church of israel as it was in the days of the judges , of elias , manasseh , our lord christ at his coming in the flesh , in the time of athanasius , when as hierom said , the whole world groaned that it was become arian , there would not be such a falling away , as the apostle foretold , tim. . . . thess . at which time the rhemists grant in their note on that place , that even the service of christ shall be suppressed . and therefore the impossibility here supposed by h. t. is but imaginary out of inadverteney of what the scripture hath related and foretold , and ignorance of the great corruption of man and the power of the old serpent called the devil and satan , which deceiveth the whole world , revel . . . . but what church is there that so resolves her faith ? none that i know of besides the roman , or rather the court of rome . for i do not yet think that either the greek , asiatick , or african churches do so resolve their faith , no nor yet some of those churches who do hold communion with the roman see ; nay , i hardly think the church or court of rome it self doth resolve it's faith ( such as it is ) as h. t. here speaks : i instance in one main point , that the pope is above a council . for sure if that be their resolution they will be cast , sith the precedent age , i mean the fifteenth century did deliver by hand to hand from father to son that a general council is above the pope , as the two so termed general councils of basil and constance did expresly determine . and in other points in difference between protestants and papists , if they go from age to age upwards , papists would finde themselves destitute of tradition unwritten as well as written , in the half communion , papal indulgences , worship of images , and many more besides . so that however this authour pretend tradition of a world of fathers to a world of sons , when he and his party are put to it they have not any ancient universal tradition elder than the sixteenth century for the chief point of the papacy the popes supremacy and infallibility , and therein the pope and his packed council of trent are the great world , he means at which were at some determinations of great moment about fifty bishops such as they were , and some of them but titular , and in other points there hath been no tradition , but what hath been gainsaid ; and therefore in fine , the papists faith is resolved into the popes and council of trents determination , which is the catholick church with papists , as is manifest by the words of this authour here , p. . where he makes the church which he counts infallible , a council called out of the whole world , and approved by the pope , which he judgeth the trent council to be , pag. . and if the catholick church do resolve its faith into the catholick churches tradition , what is this but to resolve its faith into its own tradition ? at least the catholick church represented in an oecumenical council approved by the pope must resolve its faith into it self , pius the fourth and the trent bishops must resolve their faith into their own tradition , and so must believe what they believe in points of christian faith , because they hold so , and judge themselves infallible ; and if so , it would be known whether they did believe the same things before they did determine them in a council ; if not , they defined what they did not believe ; if they did , then it would be known upon what tradition they did believe them , if they name the tradition of the foregoing age , the same questions will be put , and the answer must be either at last to resolve it into scripture , or some fallible men , or the process will be endless , or it must rest in the determination of the present church catholick , properly so called , or general council , or pope , or else the questions wil return , and the arguing will be circular . yet there are these reasons why papists make shew of this way of resolving their faith into the churches tradition unwritten , . because they would not have their doctrines and faith tried by the holy scriptures alone , nor in the first place , nor by the doctours of the first five hundred years . . because they know that few either of the learned or unlearned can track them in this way , it being impossible for any but men of very great reading and very accurate criticks to discern truth in this way by reason of the multitude of nations in which the church hath been , whereof some are unknown to some other churches , the impossibility to know what each church throughout the world held in every age , the difficulty of travel , the variety of languages , the multitude and uncertainty of authours , especially since they have been gelded and altered by the indices expurgatorii , and practises of monks and other scribes , the foisting in bastard treatises under the names of approved authours . for which reason it is that they decline as much as they can trial of their doctrine by scripture , pretending difficulties where there are either none , or such as might be removed , though by their course they cast men into insuperable difficulties , and when they are necessitated to let people have the scripture in the vulgar language by reason of importunity of adversaries , yet they so pervert it by corrupt translations and notes ( as in the rhemist's testament is manifest ) that people have much ado without much diligence to finde out their deceits . sect . v. the romanists can never gain their cause by referring the whole trial of faith to the arbitrement of scripture , but will be proved by it to have revolted from christianity . yet h. t. hath the face to say , but if we refer the whole trial of faith to the arbitrement of scripture , i see nothing more evident , than that this one argument ad hominem , gives the cause into our hands , since it clearly proves either many controverted catholick doctrines are sufficiently contained in scripture , or many protestant ones are not ; and thus i frame my discourse . all protestant tenets ( say you ) are sufficiently contained in scripture ; but many catholick doctrines ( say i ) denied by protestants are as evident in scripture , as divers protestant tenets ; therefore many catholick doctrines denied by protestants are sufficiently contained in scripture . he that has hardiness enough to deny this conclusion let him compare the texts that recommend the churches authority in deciding controversies , and expounding articles of faith with these that support the protestant private spirit , or particular judgement of discretion ; let him compare the places that favour priestly absolution with those on which they ground their necessity ( not to stand upon the lawfulness ) of infant-baptism , let him compare the passages of the bible for the real presence of our saviours body in the eucharist , for the primacy of st. peter , for the authority of apostolical traditions , though unwritten , with what ever he can cite , to prove the three distinct persons in the blessed trinity , the consubstantiality of the son with the father , the procession of the holy ghost from both , the obligation of the sunday in stead of the sabbath , so expresly commanded in the moral law ; and when he has turned over all his bible as often as he pleases , i shall offer him onely this request , either to admit the argument or teach me to answer it . answ . h. t. sure hath a singular eyesight , which sees such an evidence in this argument , as that he sees nothing more evident . what ? is not this more evident , that the whole is bigger than a part , that god made the world , that the word was made flesh ( sure an argument ad hominem is no demonstration , specially when what the man holds at one time upon second and better thoughts he relinquisheth : nor is an argument ad hominem fit to establish any truth , but somewhat to lessen the opinion of the man who is thereby convinced of holding inconsistencies ; and therefore the cause is not given into h. t. and his fellows hands , that unwritten traditions are a rule of faith , or that popish doctrine is grounded on scripture , because some protestant tenets have no better proof thence than some popish tenets denied to be contained in the scripture . but that i may gratifie h. t. ( as much as in me lieth ) in his request , i tell him , the syllogism is in no mood or figure that i know , nor ( if i would examine the form of it ) do i doubt , but that i should finde four terms in it at least , and then h. t. it is likely knows his sy●logism is naught . nor do i know how to form it better , unless it be formed dis-junctively : but it belongs not to me to form his weapons for him . to it as i finde it i say , that if he mean , that all protestant tenets simply are sufficiently contained in scripture , who ever he be that saith so , yet i dare not say so : but this i think , that all , or most of the tenets which the protestants hold against the papists in the points of faith and worship , which are controverted between them , are sufficiently contained in the scripture , and all of them ought to be , or else they may be rejected . and for his minor i deny it , if he mean it of those protestant tenets in points of faith , which are held by all , or those that are avouched by common consent in the harmony of their confessions , excepting some about discipline , ceremonies , and sacraments . and for his instances , to the first i say , i am willing any reader , who reades what is written on both sides in the fifth article here , should judge whether hath more evidence in scripture , the churches imagined infallible authority in deciding controversies , or that each person is to use his own understanding to try what is propounded to be believed without relying on any authority of pope , general council , or prelates , who are never called the church in scripture . and for the second , i do not take it to be a protestant tenet , that infant-baptism is necessary ; and for the lawfulness , i grant , there is as much evidence in scripture for priests judiciary sacramental authoritative absolution as for it , that is none at all for either . and for the third , there are protestants , that grant a real presence of our saviour's body in the eucharist , as the lutherans , and some calvinists grant also a real presence to the worthy receiver , but not bodily , but for the real presence by transubstantion there is not the least in scripture of it self , as scotus long ago resolved . and for the primacy of st. peter , it hath been told this authour , that a primacy of order , of zeal , and some other endowments , is yielded by protestants , but supremacy of jurisdiction over the apostles is denied , and it is proved before , article . to have no evidence in scripture . and for the authority of apostolical traditions , though unwritten , ( if there were any such truly so called ) i should not deny it , but that there are any such which are a rule of faith now to us , he hath not proved in this article , nor brought one text for it , but some far-fetcht reasons of no validity . but i presume his brethren will give him little thanks for gratifying so much the antitrinitarians , arians , socinians , as to yield , that those points which are in the nicene and athanasius his creed , and were determined in the first general councils are no better proved from scripture than transubstantiation , the popes supremacy and unwritten traditions being a rule of faith. are not these texts matth. . . john . . john . . john . . and many more which bellarmine lib. . de christo brings to prove the trinity of persons , the sons consubstantiality , the spirits procession more evident than , this is my body , for transubstantiation , thou art peter , for the popes supremacy ; and h. t. his scriptureless reasoning for unwritten traditions ? bellarmine lib. . de verbo dei , cap. . and elsewhere acknowledgeth the tenets about gods nature , and the union of natures in christ to be plainly in scripture . as for sunday being in stead of the sabbath , he should me thinks allow somewhat in scripture for it , col. . . acts . cor. . , . revel . . . more evident than for his real presence , peter's supremacy , unwritten traditions . but i see prejudice doth much to sway men , and make them see what others cannot . the crow thinks her own bird fairest . yet again , saith h. t. the same syllogism may with equal evidence be applied to the negative , as well as positive doctrines on either side . all catholick points denied by protestants are sufficiently ( say you ) condemned in scripture . but many points imbraced by protestants are as clearly ( say i ) condemned in scripture , as divers they deny in opposition to catholicks ; therefore many points embraced by protestants are sufficiently condemned in scripture . where does the bible so plainly forbid prayer for the dead , as this darling errour and fundamental principle of protestancy , that any one however ignorant , however unstable , ought to reade the holy scriptures , and unappealably judge of their sense by his private interpretation ? where is it so plainly forbidden to adore christ in what place soever we believe him to be really present , as it is to work upon the saturday ? thus if the bible be constituted sole rule of religion , protestants clearly can neither condemn the catholick , nor justifie their own . answ . the conclusion may be granted , that many points embraced by protestants are sufficiently condemned in scripture without any detriment to the protestant cause : protestants do not pretend to infallibility , but that the tenets in point of faith , which in opposition to papists their harmony of confessions avoucheth are sufficiently condemned in scripture , is more than h. t. or any other can prove . to his syllogism i answer , by denying his minor. and to his instances i answer , the prayer for the dead , which protestants say is forbidden plainly in scripture , is popish prayer for the dead to have them eased or delivered out of purgatory : now this we say is condemned plainly in scripture . . because it supposeth a belief of a purgatory-place in hell , which is an errour , and every errour is condemned in scripture , as contrary to truth . . all prayer is condemned , which is not agreeable to the rules of prayer ; now the rules of prayer in scripture are , that we should pray in faith , james . . ask the things which are according to the will of god , john . . not for him that sins unto death , vers . . but to ask for deliverance out of purgatory , when there is no such place , nor god hath promised any such thing , is not in faith , nor according to gods will , but is as vain as to ask for him that sins unto death , it is all one as to pray that the elect angels or devils should be delivered thence , which were a mockery of god. . god forbids jeremiah to pray for that which he would not hear him , in jer. . . therefore prayer for the dead to be delivered out of purgatory , in which god will not hear , is by parity of reason condemned , as if a man should pray that the reprobate should not be damned , or the elect should not be saved . the protestants say not , that every one , however ignorant or unstable , ought unappealably to judge of the sense of all scriptures by his private interpretation . there are plain scriptures and points fundamental , and of these they say they may and ought to judge of their sense each one by his own private interpretation , if by it be meant his own understanding , but not if by it be meant a peculiar fancy such as no man else conceives , nor the words import : but they say in difficult places and points not fundamental they ought not to judge of their sense unappealably , that is , so as not to use the help of the learned , in which number fathers and councils have their place , and especially their own teachers , to finde out the meaning of them : yet when they have used means , they may , and must suspend any judgement at all , or stick to that which in their own understanding seems most probable , or else they must go against their own conscience , which were sin , or they must be hypocrites , saying , they judge that to be so , which they do not , yea , there should be an impossibility in nature granted , that a man at the same time doth judge that to be the sense of the same thing which he doth not : but they deny , that a man ought so to rest on any pope , or councils , or doctours judgement , as to hold what they hold without any other proof , though it be in their apprehension against scripture , sith that is plainly condemned , matth. . . and they hold that every man , that hath the use of natural understanding ought to reade the scripture , john . . col. . . rom. . . . tim. . , . and to judge their sense in this manner , and this is no errour , much less a darling errour of protestancy . nor can h. t. prove it any where condemned in scripture . as for the place pet. . . to which his words seem to allude , it proves not the reading of the scripture or judging of the sense to be condemned , yea ver . . . proves the contrary , that christians should reade paul's epistles , in which those things are which are hard to be understood . onely it condemns the wresting of them to their perdition by the unlearned and unstable , which protestants do condemn as well as papists . it is not forbidden to adore christ in what place soever he is , but . it is an errour contrary to an article of faith to conceive christ in a wafer-cake on earth , called the host by papists , whom we believe to be in heaven at the right hand of god , and of whom it is said , that the heaven must contain him till the times of the restitution of all things . acts . . and so it is forbidden to adore that bread , as if christ's body were there , it being a belief of an errour contrary to an article of faith. . it is flat idolatry to adore with divine worship a piece of bread , though taken to be the body of christ , it being forbidden , matth. . . thou shalt worship the lord thy god and him onely shalt thou serve . nor can the imagination of a person acquit the person that does it from idolatry . for if it could , the worship of the golden calf , which the israelites proclaimed to be the gods that brought them out of egypt , exod. . . and worshipped god thereby , vers . . , . micah's worship of his molten image of the silver , which he dedicated to the lord , judges . and jeroboam's worship of the golden calf , kings . . yea , all the idolatry of the heathens who worshipped those things which were no gods should be excused , because they thought them gods , or intended to worship god by them . as for working upon the saturday , it is true , it was forbidden to the jews ; but we conceive it not forbidden to us , because the jewish sabbath is abrogated , col. . . and if h. t. do not think so , he doth judaize , and if he hold the lord's day and the saturday sabbath too , he agrees with the ebionites , mentioned by eusebius , lib. . hist . ●ap . . so that it is utterly false , that if the bible be constituted sole rule of religion , protestants clearly can neither condemn the catholick , no justifie their own . b●t it is rather true , which dr. carleton in his little book of the church avouched , that the now roman church is proved not to be the true church of christ , because in the trent council the romanists have altered the rule of faith. and for my part , to my best understanding i do judge , that the romanists are not to be reckoned amongst christians , though they call themselves so , but that as by their worshipping of images , burning incense to them , praying to a crucifix , adoring the host , and almost all their worship , and in their invocating of saints and angels as mediatours to god they are departed from the two great points of christianity , tim. . . cor. . . ephes . . , . and thereby are become pagans ; so by their substituting of another rule of religion than the doctrine of christ and his apostles in their writings , to wit , unwritten traditions , which are nothing else but the determinations of popes and councils approved by him , they do prove themselves not to be disciples of christ , which is all one with christians , acts . . and accordingly are not to be judged a church of christ , but papists ( which name bellarmine , lib. de not is eccles . cap. . doth not disown ) or the popes church truly antichristian . sect . vi. sayings of fathers and councils prove not unwritten traditions a rule of faith. h. t. recites the sayings of eight fathers and two councils for tradition . the first of irenaus lib. . cap. . doth not at all prove that we have now unwritten traditions for a rule of faith , but that if the apostles ( in stead of which fraudulently , as i fear h. t. puts , if the fathers ) had left us no scripture at all , ought we not to follow the order of tradition which they delivered , to whom they committed the churches . to understand which it is to be noted , that irenaeus having proved valentinus his doctrines of aeones or more gods and lords than one to be false out of the scriptures , chap. . he speaks thus of the valentinian hereticks , when they are reproved out of scriptures they are turned into accusation of the scriptures themselves , as if they were not right , nor from authority ; and because they are diversly said , and because the truth cannot be found out of these by those who know not tradition . for that truth was not delivered by letters , but by living voice , ( which is the very plea for traditions , which h. t. here useth ) for which cause paul said , we speak wisdom among them that are perfect , as they took themselves to be , and said , they were wiser than either presbyters or apostles , and would neither consent to scriptures nor tradition ; and then cap. . shews the tradition of the apostles by what was preached in the churches founded by them ; and to avoid prolixity refers to linus , anacletus , clemens at rome , and to polycarpus and his successours at smyrna , and after useth the words mentioned chap. . which do not at all mention tradition in all after ages as a rule , but the tradition from the apostles to them that knew the apostles , and that onely in the main point of faith concerning god the creatour , and onely upon supposition there had been no scripture , and that after he had alleged the scripture to stop the course of hereticks that declined the scripture . whence it is apparent , . that irenaeus counted scripture the constant rule of faith. . that he counted tradition unwritten a rule onely upon supposition , that the apostles had not left us scripture . . no tradition to be that rule , but what was from men acquainted with apostles . . to be used onely in case men were so perverse as to decline scripture : which is our case in dealing with papists , which moved bishop jewel in his sermon at paul's cross to offer , that if the papists could prove the articles then enumerated by antiquity of the first five hundred years after christ he would subscribe : which neither harding , nor bellarmine , nor perron , nor any of the romanists could or can do . the words of tertullian lib. de praescript . advers . haeret. cap. . . are indeed , that the doctrine is to be held which the church had from the apostles , the apostles from christ , christ from god. but he expresseth how he means it , when he saith in the same place , but what the apostles have preached , that is , what christ hath revealed to them , i will also prescribe that it ought to be no otherwise proved but by the same churches , which the apostles themselves built , they themselves by preaching to them , as well by living voice ( as they say ) as by epistles afterwards . which plainly shews that tertullian mentioned no other doctrine to be received from the churches than what the apostles after wrote , nor from any other churches than those which the apostles by preaching built , by which he means the corinthian , philippick , thessalonian , ephesian , as well as roman , chap. . and though he use against valentinus , marcion , and other hereticks , the tradition of those churches , yet chap. . he plainly directs to the scriptures , as the way to finde christ by using his words to the jews , john . . search the scriptures in which ye hope for salvation : for they do speak of me . this will be , seek and ye shall finde . which being considered , it will appear , that tertullian was far from asserting unwritten traditions of things not contained in scripture delivered in these later ages , and called apostolical by popes and councils , the rule of faith. cyprian's words lib. . epist . cap. . ad cacilium in some editions , epist . . shew his mistake about traditions , as he counted the mingling of water and wine in the eucharist to be the lord's tradition , so he did also rebaptization , in which the romanists desert him : neither shew he held unwritten tradition a rule of faith ; yea , arguing against them that used water without wine , he proves the lord's tradition out of scripture , and urgeth it against them , and though his reasons be frivolous , yet these expressions shew he adhered to the scripture as his rule . but if it be commanded by christ , and the same be confirmed and delivered by his apostle , that as oft as we drink in commemoration of the lord we do the same thing , which the lord also did , we are found that it is not observed of us which is commanded , unless we also do the same things which the lord did , and mingling the cup in like manner recede not from the divine magistery . again , i marvel enough whence this hath been used , that against the evangelical and apostolical discipline in some places water is offered in the lord's cup , which alone cannot express christ 's blood. whence may be perceived , that even in cyprian's days corrupt usages came in by following other traditions than those that are written . in the same epistle cyprian adds this remarkable speech , wherefore if christ alone be to be heard , we ought not to attend what any one before us hath thought is to be done , but what christ who is before all ; neither ought we to follow the custome of a man out the truth of god , sith god speaks by the prophet esay , and saith , without reason do they worship me , teaching mandates and doctrines of men . origen's words do not prove unwritten traditions a rule of faith , when he saith , in our understanding scripture we must not depart from the first ecclesiastical tradition , tract . . in cap. . st. matthai ; nor athanasius when he saith , this doctrine we have demonstrated to have been delivered from hand to hand by fathers to sons , lib. . de decret . concil . niceni ; sith that delivery was according to him by scripture . chrysostom on thess . . . saith , the apostles did not deliver all things by writing , but many things without , and these are worthy of credit as the others , but doth not say , there remain still in the church traditions unwritten in matters of faith that are different from the written , and that they are to be the rule of faith : yea , homily in tim. . , . he determines all is to be learned from scripture ; and the same answer may serve for the words of epiphanius , haeresi . the words of augustine lib. . de bapt. cap. . are about a point in controversie between cyprian and pope stephanus , in which both sides pretended tradition , cyprian for rebaptization , and here augustine pretends tradition for the contrary ; by which and by augustine's words lib. . de pecc . merit . & remiss . cap. . in which he makes the giving of the sacrament of the eucharist to infants an ancient and apostolical tradition , which pope innocentius epist . . among augustine's epistles determined to be necessary , yet is now condemned in the trent council , it is apparent how unsafe it is to rely on a popes determination , or austin's opinion of apostolical tradition , and that gross errours have been received under the name of apostolical traditions . as for the second council of nice , act . anno dom. . it was a late and an impious council condemned by the synod of francford and at paris for their impious doctrine of worshipping images , and therefore we count its speech not worthy to be answered but with detestation . nor is there any reason to be moved with the words of the council at sens in france , which was later and but provincial . sect . vii . objections from scripture for its sufficiency without unwritten traditions are vindicated from h. t. his answers . h. t. proceeds thus . objections solved . object . you have made frustrate the commandments of god for your tradition , st. matth. cap. . v. . beware lest any man deceive you by vain fallacy according to the traditions of men , col. . answ . these texts are both against the vain traditions of private men , not against apostolical tradition . i reply , they are against the popish unwritten traditions , which are falsly called apostolical , which are indeed the meer inventions of men , either devised by superstitious prelates , priests , monks or people , or upon uncertain report received by credulous people , as from the apostles , as the traditions about easter , lent fast , christ's age , and many more shew . and in such kinde of mens inventions doth almost all the popish worship and service consist , which causeth breaking the command of god to observe mens traditions , as is manifest in monkish vows , whereby honouring of parents is made void , and the keeping of the cup from the people , whereby the express command of christ is evacuated . object . there is no better way to decide controversies than by scripture . answ . than by scriptures expounded by the church , and according to the rule of apostolical tradition , i grant : than by scripture according to the dead letter , or expounded by the private spirit , i deny . for so ( as tertullian says ) there is no good got by disputing out of the texts of scripture , but either to make a man sick or mad . de praescript . cap. . i reply , it is well this man will grant , there is no better way to decide controversies than by the scriptures expounded by the church , and according to the rule of apostolical tradition : then knot 's reasons for a living judge against dr. potter come to nothing : we desire no other than to have our controversies decided this way , rejecting any one infallible judge that shall take on him , as the pope doth , to prescribe to the church of god how they shall understand the scripture . the church of god , that is , the company of believers , who are the church of god by papists own definition , having the help of their godly and learned guides may expound the scriptures any where in the world , at geneva , london , dort , and other places as well , and better than the pope and his cardinals at rome , or a council of canonists , titular bishops , sworn vassals of the pope , that never knew what it was to preach the gospel , sophistical school-men at trent . and for the rule of apostolical tradition , we like it well to expound scripture by it , meaning that which is in the books of scripture , as austin taught , lib. . de doctr . christ . cap. . . . . lib. . cap. . . . lib. . cap. . . . . . . . lib . cap. . as the words are cited and vindicated from hart's replies by dr. john rainoll , confer . with hart. chap . divis . . nor do i know any other apostolical tradition , which is a rule to expound scriptures by for deciding controversies but their epistles , and other writings . if h. t. can shews me any such to expound them by , let him produce them , and i will embrace them . sure i am popes expositions and popish councils , canons , are so far from being apostolical traditions , that they are rather the most ridiculous , profane , and blaphemous pervertings of scripture that ever any sober man used , as may appear by their canon law. yea , the very council of trent hath absurdly abused scripture , as might be made manifest by going over their canons , and the like may be said of the roman catechism . what h. t. means by the dead letter i understand not , unless he mean the literal sense , which sure bellarmine and others allow for one sense , and that most genuine , and if it be not , why did the trent council decree the vulgar translation not to be refused ? why did cajetan , arias montanus , the r●emists , and many more translate and expound according to the letter ? is the scripture any more a dead letter than the popes breves or trent canons ? are they any more a living judge than the scripture ? pope pius the fourth ties papists to expound the scriptures according to the unanimous consent of the fathers , which is , except in very few things , a meer nullity , and , if it were a reality , impossible to be done , yet however could it be done the exposition must be by a dead letter in h. t. his sense as much as the scripture . but how intolerable is it that such a wretch as h. t. should thus blasphemously call that a dead letter , which stephen calls living oracles , acts . . paul the word of life , phil. . . it is true for popes , of whom some , if alphonsus a cast●● lib. . advers . haeret. cap. . say true , were so unlearned as not to understand grammar , it is desirable that the scripture should not be expounded according to the letter , sith they are unable to do it , that they may vent their illiterate fopperies under pretence of apostolical tradition , of which sort many of their decrees are in their canon law. but me thinks all the learned romanists ; even the jesuits themselves , specially those that have written large commentaries according to the literal sense , as salmeron , maldonat , lorinus , cornelius a lapide , tirinus , and many more should reject this foolery of h. t. concerning the expounding of scripture , not according to the literal sense , which he calls the dead letter , or else at once blot out all they have written for finding it as a meer encumbrance to the world. and the same may be said of not expounding by the private spirit . for why do these private men take so much pains to publish commentaries ? is not their spirit as much private , as calvin's , beza's , luther's , and others , and these mens spirit as publick as theirs ? let any man assign reasons if he can why all the commentaries of the romanists should not be cashier'd under this pretence as well as the protestants , who are as learned , industrious as they , and far more sincere and impartial . why should not the popes expositions be rejected as well as others ? have they any more than a private spirit ? do not their very breves , and monitories , and decrees , shew that it is a private spirit they act and decide by ? sure the spirit of god would not dictate such vain things as they utter , and which sometimes they are fain to recall , lest their nakedness appear . do not the popes by their own confessions in correcting the vulgar latin translation , and other things they set forth , declare , that they use industry and the help of learned men ? if they have a publick spirit , why do not the popes make us an exposition of scripture , which all must own ? is it not because they are for the most part a race of ignorant and unlearned men , specially in the scriptures , and , should they attempt such a thing , would make themselves appear ridiculous , and shew their asinine ears , though now they seem terrible , and to carry majesty with their lions skin ? is there any thing the popes can do more necessary than this , that they may end all controversies , and guide all souls aright ? but the truth is , the popes have been so unhappy in alleging scripture in their bulls , and breves , and monitories , in their dicisions of controversies , that no side will acquiesce in their determinations they are so vain or so partial , but as of old in the controversies between dominicans and franciscans about the virgin maries immaculate conception , so of late between the molinists and jansenists about gods decrees , each party holds what they held , notwithstanding the popes decision , which for the most part is so composed , that each party may think it makes for him , and he may loose neither . and about the edition of the vulgar translation in latin of the bible , how much have the two popes sixtus the fifth and clemens the eighth discovered their unskilfulness , when after such profession of diligence and use of learned men as the popes make , yet they have published their editions contrary one to another ! the words of tertullian are cap. . against those hereticks valentinus , marcion , and such as agreed not with christians in the rule of faith set down cap. . whom he denies to be christians , and such he thinks it would be unfit to dispute with out of scripture , but he doth not so judge concerning such as agree in the rule of faith , though some term them hereticks . i may more truly say , there is no good got by popes interpretations of holy scripture but to make a man sick or mad : such expositions as alexander the third made of psalm . thou shalt tread upon the asp and basili●k , when he trode on the emperour frederick's neck , or boniface the eighth , when to prove himself above emperours and kings , he alleged gen. . . god made two great lights , that is , the pope and the sun , and the emperour as the moon , with many more of the like sort are no better than sick mens dreams or mad mens freaks . it is added . object . all scripture divinely inspired is profitable for teaching , for arguing , for reproving , and for instructing in righteousness , that the man of god may be perfect , instructed to every good work , tim. . , . therefore traditions are not necessary , answ . st. paul speaks onely there of the old scripture , which timothy had known from his childhood ( when little of any of the new could be written ) as is plain by the precedent verse , which we acknowledge to be profitable for all those uses , but not sufficient ; neither will any more follow out of that text , if understood of the new scriptures : so that your consequence is vain and of no force . i reply , that which is profitable to teach , reprove , correct , instruct in righteousness , so as that the man of god may be entire , fitted , or instructed for every good work . sure that is a sufficient rule for doctrine of faith and good works , and so to salvation . but such is the scripture , as the text tells us . ergo. the major is apparent , sith no more is required to a sufficient rule of doctrine , if there be , let it be shewed , that it may be known wherein this is defective . sure that which is profitable for all uses to which doctrine serves is a sufficient doctrine . the answer of h. t. here is so far from being a full answer to the objection ( as he vainly vaunts in the title page of his book ) that indeed it is a confirmation of the objection . for if the old scriptures were so profitable as to make the man of god a teacher of the church , entire , that they were able to make him wise to salvation , and furnish him with instruction to every good work , much more when the books of the new testament were added , of which one of the gospels is by h. t. here pag. . said to have been written eight years after the death of christ , and doubtless timothy knew it , and however he had the former epistle to himself before the epistle in which this passage is , which is ill printed , tim . , . it being tim. . , , . and therefore the scripture he had was a sufficient rule to him a bishop without traditions , much more to others , and so traditions unwritten are proved unnecessary and superfluous . again saith h. t. object . if any one shall add to these god shall add to him the plagues written in this book , apoc. . , . therefore it is not lawfull to add traditions . answ . it follows immediately , and if any one shall diminish from the words of this prophecy god shall take away his part out of the book of life , vers . . by which st. john evidently restrains that text to the book of his own prophecies onely ; which is not the whole rule of faith ; and therefore by that you cannot exclude either the rest of the scriptures or apostolical traditions from that rule . i reply , there is no reason why the same thing is not to be understood of the whole canon , and each particular book , sith there is the like deut. . . prov. . . jer. . . thess . . , . wherein are general warnings of not receiving additions to the scripture , yea , though the names of moses and paul were pretended , especially when the traditions do adulterate the written word as popish traditions about images , fasting , single life , of the clergy , monastick vows , and others of their traditions do . yet he adds . object . we may have a certain knowledge of all things necessary to salvation by the bible or written word onely . answ . no , we cannot ; for there have been , are and will be infinite disputes about that to the worlds end , as well what books are canonical as what the true sense and meaning is of every verse and chapter . nor can we ever be infallibly assured of either , but by means of apostolical tradition ; so that if this be interrupted , and failed for any one whole age together ( as protestants defend it for many ) the whole bible , for ought we know , might in that space be changed and corrupted : nor can the contrary ever be evinced without new revelation from god : the dead letter cannot speak for it self . i reply , this profane wretch it seems takes delight in this blasphemous title which he gives to the holy scripture often in reproach terming it the dead letter , which he hath no warrant to do . for though it is true that ro. . , . cor. . . the law or old covenant be termed the letter , and is said to be dead and killing , yet this is not meant of the holy scripture of the law , because it is written , but because it was abrogated in the gospel , as killing by its sentence sinners that continued not in all things written in it , gal. . . and yet it can speak for it self as well , yea , incomparably better than any writings of popes , councils , or fathers from whence he hath his traditions , which are as dead a letter as the scripture . and in this his expression there is so much the more iniquity , in that he prefers before the holy scripture the uncertain reports of credulous superstitious men , and the decrees of doating popes , as more lively than the holy scripture inspired of god and for this man who but the next page before confessed , that the words of the apostle , which tell us , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the holy written letters were able to make timothy wise to salvation , tim. . to be meant of the old scripture , and yet here to say , that we cannot have a certain knowledge of all things necessary to salvation by the bible or written word onely , what is it but flatly to gainsay the apostle ? which is the more impiously and impudently done , in that he ascribes that to uncertain unwritten tradition , which neither he nor any of his fellows are able to shew where it is , or how it may be certainly known , which he denies to holy scripture . as for his reason it is frivolous . for a man may have a certain knowledge of that of which there will be infinite disputes to the worlds end , else hath he no certain knowledge of the popes supremacy , infallibility , power in temporals , superiority to a council , of which yet there have been and are likely to be infinite disputes . as there have been disputes about the canonical books , so there have been about unwritten traditions , as about the time of keeping easter , rebaptization , &c. nor is it true that there are infinite disputes about the true sense and meaning of every verse and chapter of the bible . sure among christians there is no dispute of many fundamental truths , which every christian acknowledgeth ; and yet if there were , it is no other thing than what is incident not onely to philosophers writings , but also to the popes decrees , about which there are infinite disputes among the canonists , to the canons and decrees of the council of trent , about which there were disputes between catharinus , soto , vega , andradius , and others , to the popes breves , as to pope paul the fifth his breves about the oath of allegeance , which were not onely disputed by king james and other protestants , but also by widrington and other popish priests , and to his monitory and interdict of venice disputed by frier paul of venice and others against bellarmine , baronius , and others . and if we can never be infallibly assured of either the canonical books or their sense but by apostolical tradition unwritten , then can h. t. never be assured of the popes infallibility , or supremacy but by it , and if so , then the scripture is not his ground of it , and so he cannot demonstrate the truth of his catholick religion by texts of holy scripture , as he pretends in his title-page , and therefore they are impertinently alleged by him , he should onely allege tradition : which whether it be fathers , councils , or popes sayings , it cannot assure better than the scripture , they being more controverted than it , and therefore by his reasoning there can be no certainty in his faith , and then he is mad if he suffer for it , as he is who suffers for any mans saying , who may be deceived . but we are assured both of the books of canonical scripture , not onely by apostolical tradition unwritten , but also by universal tradition , and the evidence of their authour by their matter , and of the meaning without popish tradition , not onely by common helps of understanding and arts gotten by study , and the benefit of later and elder expositours , but also by the spirit of god assisting us when we seek it duly . and for the interruption of this tradition the protestants do not pretend it to have been one whole age or day , though it have been sometimes more full than at other times : and we have infallible assurance that the whole bible hath not been changed or corrupted so but that by reason of the multitude of copies , and special providence of god , the chiefest points are free from change , and what is corrupted may be amended so far as is necessary for our salvation . and considering gods providence for the keeping of the law , we assure our selves the lord will preserve the scripture , which me thinks to h. t. should give good assurance , sith pag. he saith , the church is by christ the depository of all divinely revealed veritie , necessary to be known by all , and hath the promise of divine assistance to all ; whereby and by other arguments it may be evinced without new revelation from god , that though h. t. his apostolical tradition unwritten should have failed for any one whole age together , yet the whole bible should not in that space be changed or corrupted . and this is reply enough to his venemous answer to that objection , which tends to depress the scriptures authority ( which confessedly comes from god ) to exalt the authority of the worst of men , the popes of rome , as the stories of their lives proves sufficiently it is further urged . object . many other signs also did jesus in the sight of his disciples , which are not written in this book , but these are written , that you may believe that jesus is the son of god , and that believing you may have life in his name , st. john . , . therefore st. john's gospel contains all things necessary to salvation . answ . i deny your consequence ; for st. john omitted many things of great moment , as our lord's prayer and his last supper , which are both necessary to be believed . and though he say , these things are written that we may believe and have life , he says not , that these things onely were written , or are sufficient for that purpose , which is the thing in question , so that he excludes not the rest of the gospels nor apostolical traditions . and it is no unusual thing in scripture to ascribe the whole effect to that which is but the cause in part ; thus christ promiseth beatitude to every single christian virtue . st. matthew . and st. paul , salvation to every one that shall call on the name of our lord , or confess with his mouth the lord jesus , and believe that god hath raised him from the dead , rom. . , , . yet more than this is requisite to salvation . i reply . he that saith , these things are written that you may believe , and believing have life , doth inculcate that these are sufficient so far as writing or revealing is requisite to these ends , or else he should make a vain attempt . frustra sit quod non assequitur finem , that is done in vain which attains not the end , and that is vainly done even deliberately , which is attempted to be done by that means which is foreknown to be insufficient . and therefore h. t. must either yield st. john's gospel sufficient to beget saith and procure life , or else john to have been imprudent to intend and attempt it by writing it . and therefore he doth ill to deny the consequence till he can avoid these absurdities . as for his reason it is insufficient . for though the lord's prayer and the lord's supper omitted by john be necessary to be believed , yet they are not so necessary but that we may believe , that jesus is the son of god , and have life in his name without them . and though he say not , that these things onely were written , yet he saith , these things onely which were written were for belief and life ; and therefore sufficient thereto . and though he excludes not the rest of the gospels , nor apostolical traditions , yet he determines that they might believe and have life without them . as for the ascribing beatitude and salvation to each single christian virtue , it is either because the beatitude is meant of a beatitude in part , or in some respect , as matth. . . the reason doth import , or else because all other christian virtues and duties necessary to salvation are connex or comprehended in that one which is named . and thus this objection is vindicated . the next is . object . st. luke tells us he hath written of all those things which jesus did and taught , act. . . therefore all things necessary to salvation are contained in his gospel . answ . he writ of all the principal passages of his life and death , i grant , ( and that was the whole scope and intent of the evangelists ) of all absolutely which he did and taught , i deny ; for in the same chapter he tells us , that during the fourty days which christ remained with them after his resurrection , he often appeared to them , instructing them in the things concerning the kingdom of god , very few of which instructions are mentioned by st. luke , nor does he or any other of the evangelists say any thing in their gospels of the coming of the holy ghost , or of the things by him revealed to the church , which were great and many according to that , i have many things to say to you , but you cannot now bear them , but when the spirit of truth cometh he shall teach you all truth , and the things which are to come he shall shew you , st. john . , , . add to this , that if all things which jesus taught and did should be written , the whole world would not contain the books , st. john cap. . vers . last . therefore your consequence is false , and that saying of st. luke is to be limited . i reply , i grant the saying of luke is to be limited , and yet the consequence is not false . it is true , that st. luke did not write all absolutely without limitation which jesus did and taught , neither doth he say it , nor is the argument so framed as if he did ; but thus , luke wrote of all the things which jesus began to do and teach untill the day that he was taken up , and these were all things necessary to salvation , therefore luke's gospel contains all things necessary to salvation . the romanists say , that things of meer belief necessary to salvation are contained in the holy-days , creeds , and service of their church , and h. t. himself in the next leaf , pag. . says , the whole frame of necessary points of christian doctrine was in a manner made sensible and visible by external and uniform practise of the church now these are onely the principal passages of christ's life and death , besides which many more practical points and all fundamental gospel-truths are delivered therein , therefore even by their own grant all necessary points of christian doctrine are taught in the gospel of luke . it is certain their intent especially of john was to write of his divine nature , and such sermons as tend to rectifie the errours of the pharisees and sadduces , and predictions of his death , resurrection , and state of the church after his ascension . it is true , he did instruct them for fourty days after his resurrection in the things concerning the kingdom of god , but whether they are mentioned by luke or not it is uncertain ; that they are delivered by tradition oral , unwritten or necessary to salvation , so as that without an explicit knowledge of then it cannot be had , is not proved . the same may be said of the things mentioned john . , , . & . vers . last , and therefore the consequence is not infringed by these exceptions . i add that h. t. says not true , that luke says not any thing in his gospel of the coming of the holy ghost . for luke . . the prediction of christ , of sending the promise of the father , which acts . . is expresly termed the promise of the holy ghost , is set down . sect . viii . h. t. solves not the objections from reason for the scriptures sufficiency without unwritten traditions . h. t. proceeds . object . at least the whole bible contains all things necessary to salvation , either for belief or practise for all sorts of men whatsoever , and that explicitly and plainly . therefore the bible is the rule of faith. answ . i deny both antecedent and consequence . the three creeds are not there , the four first councils are not there ; there is nothing expresly prohibiting polygamy or rebaptization , nor expresly affirming three distinct persons in one divine nature , or the sons consubstantiality to the father , or the procession of the holy ghost from both , or that the holy ghost is god , or for the necessity of infant baptism ; or for changing the saturday into sunday , &c. all which notwithstanding are necessary to be known by the whole church , and to be believed by us in particular ( as protestants will acknowledge ) if they be once sufficiently proposed to us by the church . nor is it sufficient we believe all the bible , unless we believe it in the true sense , and be able to confute all heresies out of it ( i speak of the whole church ) which she can never do without the rule of apostolical tradition in any of the points forementioned . i reply , unless the man had a minde to plead for arians , photinians , macedorians , and socinians , i know not why he should so often make the doctrines of three distinct persons in one divine nature , the sons consubstantiality to the father , the procession of the holy ghost from both , and his godhead as apostolical unwritten tradition . sure this is the way to bring into question these doctrines , which if they be not in scripture , will never be believed by intelligent christians for the pope and council of trent's sayings , whose proceedings never tended to clear truth , but to juggle with the world. this is one certain evidence that they never intended to clear truth , because they condemned the doctrines of protestants unheard , nor would ever permit them to come to plead for themselves in any impartial assembly , till which be done no man can construe the proceedings of a council to be any other than practises to suppress truth . and for their juggling they were so notorious , that many papists themselves have observed them , as may be seen in the history of the council of trent , especially about the divine right of bishops , of the laity having the cup , priests marriages , in which papists themselves found that they were meerly mocked by the pope and court of rome . as for this mans denying the antecedent , it seems to me to savour of such an imputation of a defect in god as tends to atheism : for sure he is not to be termed a provident and just god , who declaring his minde in the scripture , and promising life to them that observe his word , and threatning death and damnation to them that do not believe and obey , yet doth not set down all necessary points therein to be believed and obeyed unto life . yea , doth not h. t. by denying it contradict himself , who saith , pag. . in the doctrines which christ and his apostles taught , and the books which they wrote are contained all things that are of faith. and for the consequence if it be not good , the bible contains all things necessary to salvation , either for belief or practise for all sorts of men whatsoever , and that explicitly and plainly ; therefore the bible is the rule of faith , neither is his own second argument good for tradition , pag. . in the doctrines which christ and his apostles taught , and the books which they wrote , are contained all things that are of faith , therefore the infallible means of knowing them is the infallible and true rule of faith ; in both the consequence being the same . as for his instances , i say , if the three creeds and four first councils be not in the scripture they are not necessary to be known for the whole church , and to be believed by us in particular , though they be sufficiently proposed to us by the church , that is , in their non-sense gibberish the pope or a general council approved by him require us to receive them . neither hath the church ( as he terms it ) power to propose any thing as necessary to be known for the whole church , and to be believed by us in particular , but what is contained in the bible ; nor hath it such authority as that we are bound to believe them if it do propound them , though never so sufficiently , but are bound to reject them as contrary to the duty we ow to christ of acknowledging him our onely master ; much more reason have we to contend against them , when they are propounded by the popes of rome , who teach not the doctrine of christ , but cruelly and proudly tyrannize over the souls and bodies of the saints in a most antichristian manner , and impose on them as apostolical traditions things contrary to christ and his apostles in the bible . nor is it true , that all protestants will acknowledge all thsse points he mentioneth as necessary to be known for the whole church , and to be believed by us in particular . i grant it not sufficient for us to believe all the bible , unless we believe it in the true sense , but aver we can believe it in the true sense , and be able to confute all heresies out of it without the rule of apostolical tradition unwritten in any of those points in which the errour is , as our lord christ was able by it to vanquish satan , for which reason it is termed the sword of the spirit , ephes . . . and for traditions , or popes decrees , they are but a leaden sword without fire and faggot , yea , there is so much vanity in them as makes them ridiculous , and so unfit for refutation , and were it not for the horrid butchery and cruelty which princes drunken with the wine of the cup of the fornication of the whore of babylon , make of their best subjects at the instigation of popes and popish priests , nothing would appear more contemptible than their decisions . yet more . object . doubtless for speculative points of christian doctrine books are a safer and more infallible way or rule than oral tradition . answ . you are mistaken , books are infinitely more liable to casualties and corruptions than traditions , as well by reason of the variety of languages , into which they are translated , as the diversity of translations ; scarce any two editions agreeing , but all pretending one to mend the other ; besides the multiplicity of copies and copists with the equivocation and uncertainty of dead and written words if captiously wrested or literally insisted on . who can prove any one copy of the bible to be infallible or uncorrupted ( those that were written by the apostles own hands we have not ) or who can convince that any one text of the bible can have no other sense and meaning than what is convenient for his purpose , insisting onely on the dead letter ? all which dangers , and difficulties are avoided by relying on apostolical tradition , which bindes men under pain of damnation , to deliver nothing for faith , but what they have received as such by hand to hand from age to age , and in the same sense in which they have received it . think me not foolish ( says st. augustin ) for using these terms ; for i have so learned these things by tradition , neither dare i deliver them to thee any other way than as i have received them , lib. de utilit . cred . cap. . i reply , a more impudently and palpably false discourse than this is a man shall seldom meet with , it being contrary to all experience and use among men , and condemns all the customes of the most civil people of folly in writing and printing their statutes , records , deeds , wills , histories , that they may be more certain and safely preserved , as knowing , that oral traditions are apt to be lost , and corrupted , persons understandings , memories , reports , lives , and all their affairs being mutable and liable to innumerable casualties . yea , hereby god himself is condemned of imprudence , in causing moses and all the sacred writers to write books , and our lord christ in giving john express charge to write , revel . . . commending the scripture , rom. . . tim. . , , . as inspired of god , directing to it , john . . praising the searching of it , acts . . making it a persons excellency to be mighty in it , acts . . usefull to convince in the greatest point of faith , vers . . wit not printing a great benefit to the world ? was not the finding of the book of the law , chron. . the reading of it by ezra , nehem. . the having of ready scribes counted a happiness to the jews ? do not men more credit eys than ears ? do not men complain of the darkness of times for want of books ? are not the ninth and tenth ages since christ counted unhappy for want of learned writers ? was not this the great unhappiness that came into the west by the inundations of barbarous nations in that they spoiled libraries ? is it not a thing for which ptolomaeus philadelphus was renowned , that he stored the library at alexandria in egypt with books ? do not we count them great benefactours who build and preserve libraries ? are not therefore students encouraged , and they that search libraries the men that discover truth to the world ? were the things done before the flood or since better preserved by oral tradition than by moses writing ? were the things done before the wars of troy better preserved thereby than these wars by homer's poems ? or the british antiquities by the songs of bardes than by julius caesar's commentaries , tacitus , and other historians writings ? how quickly are men apt to mistake and misreport sayings appears by the mistake of christ's speeches , john . . matth. . . john . that which eusebius saith of papias , lib. . eccles . hist . cap. . of his delivering divers fabulous things received by oral tradition through his simplicity , irenaeus of the elders of afia lib. . advers . haeret. cap. . and innumerable other instances prove , there is nothing more uncertain than oral tradition from hand to hand . a man may easily perceive this man is resolved to outface plain truth , who is not ashamed thus to aver that it is a mistake to say that books are a more safe and infallible way or rule than oral tradition , when his own printing his books proves the contrary : for why did he write but for more sure conveying and preser●ing of his minde ? yea , his own reason is truly retorted on himself . oral reports are infinitely more liable to casualties and corruptions than books , as well by reason of the variety of languages in which reports are uttered , as the diversity of interpreters , scarce any two interpreters agreeing , but all pretending one to mend the others , besides the multiplicity of expressions and relatours one not agreeing with the other , as mark , . with the equivocations and uncertainties or witnesses words , if captiously wrested or literally insisted on . who can prove any one oral tradition , which is not universal and written also to be infallible or uncorrupted ( those that were delivered by the apostles own tongues we have not ) or who can convince that any one oral tradition can have no other sense or meaning than what is convenient for his purpose insisting onely on the sound of a reporter ? all which dangers and difficulties are avoided as much as is necessary by relying on the written word of the bible , which under pain of damnation bindes men to deliver nothing for faith , but what they have received as such from christ and his apostles in their writings by hand to hand from age to age , and in the same sense in which they have received it . it is true , books are subject to casualties and corruptions , yet not to so many as oral tradition , and the casualties are better prevented by writing , which remains the same , than by reports which vary . fama tam ficti pravique tenax quam nuncia veri . and as the enemies malice hath been great in seeking to deprive the world of bibles , so the providence of god hath been wonderfull in preserving them and their genuine writing and meaning even by the dispersing of copies , that what is amiss in one may be mended in another , by ordering variety of translations to the same end , persecutions that they should not be in all places at once , stirring up others to make tractates , and commentaries on them , all christians ( till the late faction at trent , and the late papal tyranny denied the liberty of translating and reading of the bible in the vulgar tongue without leave , and began to punish in their inquisition the having them ) reverencing and reading the holy scripture , however the decree of councils and popes were neglected , yea traditours of the bible to be burnt were most infamous . as for the words of austin lib. de util . cred . cap. . they are falsly cited and meerly impertinent to h. t 's . purpose . having said , the old testament is delivered , that is , expounded four ways according to the history , aetiology , analogy , allegory ; he then adds , think me not a fool , using greek names . first , because i have so received , neither dare i intimate to thee otherwise than i have received : which is nothing at all about apostolical traditions unwritten as the rule of faith besides the scripture , but of certain terms used by expositours of scripture . but that which a little after he adds is justly charged on the romanists , and among them on h. t. nothing seems to me to be more impudently said by them ( the manichees ) or that i may speak more mildely , more carelesly , and weakly , than that the divine scriptures are corrupted , when they cannot convince it by any copies extant in so fresh a memory . but h. t. in his sottish vein adds , as to your difficulty of speculative points , i answer , that the whole frame of necessary points of christian doctrine was in a manner made sensible and visible by the external and uniform practise of the church . the incarnation and all the mysteries thereof by the holy images of christ erected in all sacred places , the passion by the sign of the cross used in the sacraments , and set up in churches . the death of christ by the unbloody sacrifice of the mass , which is a lively commemoration of it . the trinity and unity by doing all thing in the name of the father , and of the son , and of the holy ghost , &c. now who can doubt but that oral tradition thus seconded by the outward and uniform practise of the whole world is a much safer , and more infallible rule for conserving revealed verities than books or dead letters , which cannot explicate themselves . i reply , were not this man bewitched , or as the prophet speaks , isai . . fed on ashes , having a deceived heart that turneth him aside , so as that he cannot say , is there not a lie in my right hand ? he would never have preferred oral tradition seconded by erecting and use of images made by idolatrous sots , and termed teachers of lies by the prophet hab , . . as a safer and more infallible rule of faith than the holy scriptures inspired by god , and his great gift to men , though impiously termed by this wretch dead letters . ' but it is the just judgement of god that they that make images and adore them should be like them . psalm . . that is , as blockish as the images are . how uncertain oral tradition is hath been shewed , and how impossible it is to be a true and right rule since the departure of those who could preach infallibly . that there is any such uniform and outward practise of the roman church , which can second oral tradition , aud make any point of christian doctrine , much less the whole frame of necessary points of christian doctrine in a manner visible and sensible is a lie with a witness . christian doctrine doth not consist in the history of the things sensible to the eye , but in the opening of the true causes , and ends , and uses of things done , which can onely be apprehended by the understanding , and is brought to it by hearing and reading , whence faith is said to come by hearing , and hearing by the word of god , rom. . , , . it is most false , that the erecting of images of christ and of the cross hath been the uniform practise of the church . it is certain by many writers that christians had no images in their churches for many hundred years , yea , it is certain that the best emperours and bishops of the east and west were against the having them in churches , however gregory the first bishop of rome by his superstitious opposing serenus his taking them down counting them lay-men's books , opened a gap to that deluge of ignorance and idolatry , which hath since spread over the western churches , which have gone a whoring after them . this authour calls them holy image which the scripture counts abominable , as defiling places , and making them not sacred but polluted . he saith , the incarnation and all the mysteries thereof are made sensible by the images of christ erected in all sacred places , the passion by the sign of the cross used in sacraments , and set up in churches . but what a notorious falshood is this ? one mystery sure is the holy ghost's overshadowing the virgin mary , another the union of the two natures ? can any image of christ teach these ? what can the sign of the cross teach , but that there was such a kinde of punishment to put men to death ? if images did teach these mysteries , then image-makers would be stewards of the mysteries of god , and successours of the apostles , and michael angelo and such like painters and carvers more truly peter's successours and bishops of rome than popes , as doing more to teach the mysteries of god than popes do . the unbloody sacrifice of the mass is a meer figment of a thing present , which all the sense of all the men in the world contradicts , full of apish gestures and toyish fashions , fitter for a stage-play than a spiritual service of the christian church , and being in a tongue not commonly understood , without teaching , informs not the hearers or seers in the mystery of the death of christ , nor makes any lively commemoration of his passion , but pleaseth superstitious and womanish or childish spirits , which are taken with such shews ; the sacrament opens no mystery thereof without the word written . accedat verbum ad elementum & fit sacramentum , was the old resolution , put the word to the element then it is made a sacrament . nor is it true , that the practice hath been uniform therein , the variety of missals , and the corruptions purged out of the roman missal , as is confessed in pope pius the fifth his bull according to the decree of the trent council prove the contrary . the trinity is known by the institution and practise of baptism , but that is learned out of the written word , not oral tradition . none of these practises do at all open the mystery of the gospel , as experience shews , it being manifest by conference that none of the people in italy and elsewhere , who go to mass , and look on pictures , and have no other teaching , do understand any thing of the mystery of the gospel , the end , reason , use of christ's birth , or death , but content themselves with a meer theatrical shew without any true understanding of the grace of god , inward feeling or effectual change in their souls thereupon . perhaps it is better with papists in england , where their superstitions are not altogether so gross , and their understanding bettered by neighbourhood and converse with protestants . but that images should conserve revealed verities , or oral tradition seconded with images more explicate them than books , which this man again impiously terms dead letters , unless the images be animated , as that was that it's said told thomas aquinas , thou hast written well of me , which was fit to be silenced by telling it , that it had no allowance to speak in the church , is to me unintelligible . and if these be such a safe and infallible rule or means to teach and conserve the whole frame of christian doctrine , then sure christ did inconsiderately appoint writers and preachers to teach and guide the church , till we all meet in the unity of the faith , ephes . . , , . he should rather for the times after the apostles have appointed , massing priests and painters to have taught the people : nor were the council of trent and some of the popes so advised , as they might have been , in appointing the unnecessary businesses of framing a catechism , and amending the vulgar latin edition of the bible , and much more foolish have been all the learned papists , who have in late years and formerly made large commentaries and other treatises to conserve revealed verities , there being a more compendious way by oral traditions with the use of images , and masses , and some other things , if this impudent scribler say true . yet h. t. continues thus . object . if all things necessary to salvation be not contained in the whole bible , now shall a man ever come to know what is necessary to be known , either by the whole church in general , or himself in particular ? answ . for the whole church in general , she is obliged to know all divinely revealed verities , which are necessary to the salvation of all mankinde , she being made by christ the depository of all , and having the promise of divine assistance to all . and for each particular man so much onely it necessary to be believed , as is sufficiently proposed to him by the church and her ministers for the word of god , or would at the least be so proposed , if he himself were not in fault ; all which we may easily come to know by means of apostolical tradition , without which we can have no infallible assurance of any point of christian doctrine . i reply , neither the church nor her ministers can sufficiently propose to any man for the word of god any other than the scripture , by which we may have infallible assurance of any point of christian doctrine without oral tradition unwritten . and to say that the whole church in general , and not each man in particular , is obliged to know all divinely revealed verities which are necessary to the salvation of all mankinde , is to speak contradictions . yet once more saith h. t. object . you dance in a vicious circle , proving the scripture and the churches infallibility by apostolical tradition , and tradition by the scripture , and the churches infallibility . answ . no , we go on by a right rule towards heaven . we prove indeed the churches infallibility and the credibility of the scriptures by apostolical tradition , but that is evident of it self , and admits no other proof . when we bring scripture for either we use it onely as a secondary testimony or argument ad hominem . i reply , if this be so , then doth h t. in his title-page pretend demonstration of his falsly called catholick religion by tents of holy scripture in the first place onely as a secondary testimony or argument ad hominem , but it is oral apostolical tradition which he principally relies on for his demonstration , as being evident of it self , and admits no other proof ; which oral apostolical tradition being no other than what popes and councils approved by him have approved , it follows , that what papists call catholick religion is not what the scriptures teach , but what popes and their councils define , into which their faith is ultimately resolved . no marvel then they decline scripture , or if they use it do it onely because of protestants importunity , not because they think it is to be rested on , and if so , sure h. t. plays the hypocrite in pretending to demonstrate his religion out of texts of holy scripture . if other papists would stick to this which h. t. here saith , we should take it as a thing confessed , that popery is not scripture doctrine , but onely unwritten tradition , and to have for its bottom foundation the popes determination , and so to be imbraced upon his credit ; which sure can beget no other than a humane faith , and in fine doth make the pope lord of their faith , which is all one as to make him their christ , and that is to make him an antichrist . therefore i conceive other romanists will disown this resolution of h. t. and seek other ways to get out of this circle , and herein they go divers ways . dr. holden an english man and doctor of paris , in his book of the analysis of divine faith , chap. . rejects the common way , and sticks to that of universal tradition , which by natural reason is evident and firm : but when he hath urged this as far as he can , this must be the evidence , that what all say and was so manifestly know by so many miracles as christ and his apostles wrought must be infallibly true . but the being of christ the mossiah , and his doctrine from god , as the holy scriptures declare , is avouched by all the church and manifestly known by miracles , therefore it must be true : which is no other than chillingworth's universal tradition , confirming the truth of the scriptures , and deriving our faith from thence , which if papists do relinquish and adhere to the popes resolutions , whether they be with scripture or without , they do expresly declare themselves papists or disciples of the pope , not christians , that is , disciples of christ . i conclude therefore that h. t. and such as hold with him according to the principle he here sets down are not believers in christ , whose doctrine is delivered in the scripture , but in men whether popes , or councils , or the universal church , or any other who delivers to him that oral tradition , which is his rule , as being evident of it self , and admits no other proof , though i have shewed it to be uncertain , yea , not so much as probable . i go on to the next article . artic . ix . schism and heresie are ill charged on protestants . protestants in not holding communion with the roman church , as now it is , in their worship , in not subjecting themselves to the pope as their visible head , in denying the new articles of the tridentin council and pope pius the fourth his bull , are neither guilty of schism nor heresie . but papists by rejecting them for this cause , and seeking to impose on them this subjection are truly schismaticks , and in holding the articles which now they do are hereticks . sect . i h. t. his definitions of heresie and schism are not right . h. t. intitles his ninth article of schism and heresie , and begins thus . nothing intrenching more on the rule of faith or the authority of the church than schism or heresie : we shall here briefly shew what they are , and who are justly chargeable therewith . our tenet is , that not onely heresie ( which is a wilfull separation from the doctrine of the catholick church ) but also schism ( which is a separation from her government ) is damnable and sacrilegious , and that most sectaries are guilty of both . answ . i think infidelity doth more intrench on the rule of faith than heresie , and heresie may be where there is no intrenching on the authority of the church in this authour 's own sense , as when a man living in communion with the roman church , and owning the pope , or being the pope himself is an arian , as pope liberius , or a monothelite as pope honorius . and for his definition of heresie , it is in mine apprehension too obscure and imperfect . for it neither shews what is the catholick church , the separation from whose doctrine makes heresie , nor what doctrines of it the separation from which makes heresie , nor what separation in heart or profession , or other act , nor when it is wilfull when not , nor how it may be known to be wilfull . nor doth this definition agree with their own tenets , who acquit many from heresie , who wilfully separate from the doctrine of the catholick church , as they define it , to wit , that which is defined by a general council approved by a pope . as for instance , the popish french church is acquitted from heresie , yet they hold a council to be above the pope , contrary to the last lateran council approved by pope leo the tenth . nor is this definition at all proved by this authour , but taken as granted , though it may be justly questioned . and for the use of the terms [ heresie ] and [ hereticks ] in the ancients it is certain , that many are put in the catalogue of hereticks by philastrius , epiphanius , augustin , and also by other writers elder and later , and those opinions termed heresies , which were not so . the like faults are in the definition of schism , in not setting down which is the catholick church , what is her government , what separation of heart , or outward profession , or other act it is which makes schism . nor is this a definition , which doth agree with their own grants ; for the councils that deposed popes separated from the government of the pope , and the french in their pragmatick sanction , and the venetians that refused to obey pope paul the fifth his monitory , deny themselves to be schismaticks . nor is it shewed how either is damnable or sacrilegious , nor how protestants are sectaries , or which sectaries are guilty of both or either . so that in this tenet there is nothing but ambiguity and imperfection : yet sith by what follows we may ghess his meaning : let 's view his dispute . sect . ii. protestants are not proved to be sectaries by the first beginning of reformation . the argument , saith h. t. all such as are wilfully divided both from the doctrine and discipline of the catholick church are schismaticks and hereticks , and consequently in a damnable state . but most protestants and other sectaries are wilfully divided both from the doctrine and discipline of the catholick church . therefore they are schismaticks and hereticks , and consequently in a damnable state . the major is manifest out of the very notion and definition of schism and heresie : the sequel of it proved thus by scriture , titus . . peter . . jude . rom. . . matth. . , , . thess . . . answ . . by denying his definition to be good , and that any of the texts prove it . . by granting the sequel of them that are truly termed schismaticks and hereticks , but not of such as he calls such , to wit , that do wilfully divide from the doctrine and discipline of the now roman church falsly by him called catholick . there is no need of examining each text till they are shewed to prove what is denied . the minor , saith he , is proved , because luther and his fellow protestants divided themselves from the communion of all churches , therefore from the communion of the catholick church , and that as well in points of doctrine as matters of government , as plainly appears by all we have said , and is yet confirmed , because when they began their separation luther in germany , tyndal in england , &c. the catholick church was in most quiet possession of her tenets , in perfect peace and unity , her doctrine and government being the same they had been , not onely to the time of gregory the great ( as protestants confess ) but to the very time of the apostles , as is manifest both by the publick liturgies , councils , and records of all ages , in which no one doctrine of faith , or substantial point of discipline , then professed by the roman catholick church , and opposed by protestants , had ever been censured and condemned as heretical or schismatical , but all for the most part actually defined and established against ancient hereticks , as you have seen in the councils . answ . . the minor speaks of most protestants , but mentions none but luther and his fellow protestants , and tyndal in england : now it is no good proof against us , that we are schismaticks , because luther and his fellow protestants were so , and tyndal began separation in england . it is told them by c●illingworth c. . p . against knot , that there may be an unjust separation begun , and so a schism in the leaders , and yet no schism in the followers in after ages ; as in a common-wealth it may be a sedition and rebellion to set up another government and governour in the first authours , and yet none in the posterity to continue them , but rather their duty to maintain them in order to the peace and liberty which was unjustly obtained at first . . it is denied that luther or tyndal divided themselves wilfully , that is , without necessity . it is known in the history of sleidan , and others , that luther at first spake honourably of the pope , and was willing to have continued in communion with the roman church till leo the tenth did by his bull condemn his doctrine , afore he had heard him , and he saw plainly ( as the world found by experience ) that the popes and court of rome did never by good proofs out of scripture go about to refute them , but by excommunications , fire , and war , ( to which emperours and kings were stirred up by them ) endeavour to root them out . and for tyndal it is manifest by the book of acts and monuments of the church written by mr. fox in the reign of henry the eighth , that tyndal was persecuted by the popish bishops , and his body burnt in brabant . now sure were the protestants never so erroneous , yet the law of nature ties them to run away from such cruel wolves , as in stead of teaching them with love , endeavour to destroy them with cruelty . . it is most false , that luther and his fellows divided themselvs from the communion of all churches : it is certain , that they actually joyned with the remainder of the hussites in bohomia , and the waldenses about the alpes , who were true churches of christ , however the romanists term them : nor did they ever renounce communion with the greek . eastern or southern churches , though by reason of distance , and the power they were under , they could not have actual communion with them . and by their desire of a free council in germany not called by the pope , but the emperour and christian princes , nor of bishops sworn to the pope , but of men that were equal judges by whom their doctrine might be examined , and by their often colloquies for reconciliation they plainly shewed , that they tried all means they could with a good conscience to have prevented the breach between them , and the popish party , who were certainly the cause of the schism , and truly the schismaticks ( as may be gathered from their own stories , such as thuanus , frier paul's history of the trent council . and others , who relate the proceedings of those times ) and not the protestants . . it is most false , that they separated from the catholick church in point of doctrine . it is most certain , that the party from whom the protestants separated had relinquished the catholick doctrine of the scripture , and primitive times for five hundred years at least , and had brought in a new upstart doctrine of invocation of saints , worshiping images , transubstantiation , half-communion as sufficient , denial of priest's marriage , popes universal monarchy , purgatory-fire , indulgences , sacrifice of the mass , justification by works , and many more , which were unknown to the first christians , nor hath the contrary appeared by any thing h. t. hath said before , as the reader of this answer may perceive . . it is most false , that they separated from the catholick church in the point of her government . the government of the whole church by one universal bishop was never the government of the catholick church . it is manifest by the first general councils that the pope of rome was not acknowledged superiour to other patriarchs , and the greek churches have always resisted his claim of supremacy , and many , as nilus arch-bishop of thessalonica , barliam and others have written against it as an unjust claim . . it is false , that the roman church ( falsly by h. t. called catholick ) was in most quiet possession of her tenets , when luther began his separation in germany , tyndal in england . it is manifest by cochlaeus his history of the hussites , that there were a remnant of them in bohemia , by thuanus and mr. morland that there was a remnant of the waldenses in the valleys of the alpes , by mr. fox that there was a remnant of lollards or wictevists in england , who did reject the roman doctrine then and since taught , in many , if not all the points , in which protestants do now oppose it . . it is false , that the roman church was in perfect peace and unity when luther and tyndal began their separation . for the controversies about the virgin marie's immaculate conception , about the popes supremacy above a council , and sundry other were rather suppressed than composed , as the event shewed , no party relinquishing the holding their tenets to this day , but each when occasion is offered contending for their way . . it is false , that the doctrines and government of the roman church had been the same from that time luther and tyndal began their separation to the time of gregory the great , or that protestants do confess it . it is most certain to the contrary , that since gregory the great his time the popes universal episcopacy , the worship of images , transubstantiation , half-communion in the eucharist , and many other points were brought into the roman church , as bishop morton in his appeal from brereley 's apology to king james hath proved . it is also most false , that their doctrine and government were the same 〈◊〉 now they are to the times of the apostles . the contrary is proved out of the epistle to the romans , by bishop robert abbot against d●ctor bishop , and by bishop jewel against harding out of the fathers . . it is false which h. t. saith , it is manifest both by the publick liturgies , councils , and records of all ages , no one doctrine of faith , or substantial point of doctrine professed then when luther and tyndal began their separation by the roman church , and opposed by protestants had ever been censured and condemned as heretical or schismatical , but all for the most part actually defined and established against ancient hereticks , as may be seen in the councils . the contrary is most manifest , that the council of chalcedon and of carthage , in which augustine was present , opposed the popes supremacy as schismatical , that the synod of frankford opposed the worshiping of images as heretical , besides many other , as hath been shewed in answer to what h. t. here allegeth . sect . iii. the sayings of fathers prove not protestants hereticks or schismaticks . but h. t. saith , fathers for this point , though there is not one of the fathers sayings which he brings that speaks at all to that point of the protestants being guilty of schism or heresie , or that the church of rome is the catholick church , or that her doctrine and government have been the same in all ages , or that in no case there may be dividing from it , or teaching contrary to it without heresie or schism , yea , it is certain , that irenaeus , cyprian , and austin , thought the clean contrary , irenaeus opposing pope victor his excommunication of the eastern bishops for not holding easter with him , cyprian opposing pope stephanus about rebaptization , augustine opposing popes boniface , zozimus , and celestine , about the appeal of apiarius . but let 's view their sayings . the first is thus cited by h. t. in the second age irenaeus ; god will judge those who make the schisms in the church , ambitious men , who have not the honour of god before their eys , but rather embracing their own interests than the unity of the church , for small and light causes divide the great and glorious body of christ , &c. for in the end they cannot make any reformation so important as the evil of schism is prejudicious , lib. . cap. . it is likely h. t. ignorantly put [ prejudicious ] for [ pernicious ] or his authour whence he had it , for it is in irenaeus , quanta est schismatis pernicies . but it appears , . that he hath either not read the place , or not considered it , because he puts in [ god will judge ] whereas it is manifest out of the words following [ but he will judge also all those who are out of the truth , that is , without the church , but he himself is judged of no man ] and from chap. . and following to be meant of every spiritual disciple of christ that had received the spirit of god , and the apostolical doctrine , chap. . alluding to paul's words , cor. . . and he alters [ the love of god ] into [ the honour of god before their eys . ] . that the place makes nothing against protestants ; for it condemns onely them that make schisms for small and light causes , which was most true of victor then bishop of rome , in excommunicating the asian bishops for not keeping easter as he did , reprehended by irenaeus in his epistle recited by eusebius , hist . . lib. . cap. . but is nothing against protestants , who neither make nor continue schisms , and that separation which they make , they do it for very great causes . and he saith , no reformation can be made so important by them who divide upon light causes , as is the mischief of the schism they make , but this hinders not but that the protestants reformation , or correption ( which is irenaeus his word ) is so necessary , that it countervails the evil of the schism consequent . i add , the words of irenaeus [ the spiritual man who is a disciple of christ will judge all them who are out of the truth ] do justifie the protestants in judging the popes and popish doctors , and churches as schismaticks and hereticks , who by their doctrine of popes supremacy , invocation of saints , humane satisfactions , inherent justice justifying , merit of condignity , have departed from the apostolical faith , and by their cruel tyranny and hatred of reformation have the most horrible and pernicious schism that ever was in the church of god , and the protestants are warranted thus to judge by the holy scripture . the words of cyprian de unit . eccles . in the third age against the novatians of the inexpiableness of their crime of schism , that it could not be purged by suffering for christ , nor they be martyrs , though they died for the confession of his name , is too heavy a censure , yet if it were true is nothing against protestants , who are not guilty of that schism . the words of chrysostom hom . . in ephes . shew how grievous an evil schism is , but prove not , that they are all schismaticks , that separate from the roman bishop and church , nor that the protestants are guilty thereof , or the romanists free . the words of optatus lib. . are not to any of the points now in controversie except he mean by the unity of the episcopal chair holding communion with the bishop of rome , and assert that to be the one episcopal chair to which all other are to be subject : which if so meant , the words are not true ; if meant as cyprian meant , that there is one bishoprick of which each bishop holds a part intirely , in respect of unity of doctrine , the speech is good , but not against protestants , who hold the unity of that episcopal chair . the words of augustine lib. . de symb. fidei ad catech. cap. . if they were true , yet are they nothing to the purpose , unless it were said , that by the holy church he meant the church of rome , or that he who is found out of the church of rome is a stranger from the number of sons , that he hath not god for his father , nor will have the church for his mother , none of which are said by him . it is true , there are these words in austin's second exposition on psalm . with us . ver . . he who hath charity is secure or safe . no man moveth it out of the catholick church . but these words are not against protestants , but against papists , who move it out of the catholick church , and confine it to the roman , and most uncharitably damn them , who are not of their party , therein following the donatists , whom austin there condemns , who confined the church to the part of donatus in africa . and there is another passage in the same exposition which doth justifie the protestants and condemn the papists in the main point of controversie between us , what shall determine controversies between us , they say the church , when the great controvesie is which is the church , we say the scripture , and so doth augustine in these words . the testament of our father ( that is , the scriptures , as the words a little before shew ) is come out of any hole , i know not what thieves would take it away , i know not what persecutours would burn it . whencesoever it is brought let it be read . why strivest thou ? we are brethren , why do we strive ? the father died not without a will , he made his will and so died , he is dead and risen again . so long there is contention about the inheritance of the dead untill the will be publickly produced , and when the will is brought into the publick all are silent , that the tables may be opened and recited . the judge hears within , the advocates are silent , the criers make silence , all the people is suspended , that the words of the dead not perceiving it in the tomb may be read . he lies without sense in the monument , and his words are in force , christ sits in heaven , and is his testament contradicted ? open , let us read , we are brethren , why do we contend ? let our minde be pacified , our father hath not left us without a will. he that made the will lives for ever , hears our voices , acknowledgeth his own . let us read , why do we contend ? where the inheritance it self is found , let us hold it . these words were spoken by austin against donatists , and may rightly be applied to papists , who are the true canse of all the horrible schisms and bloodsheds among christians , because they will not try who hath the inheritance of the church by the scriptures , which are god's will , but usurp the name of the catholick church , as the donatists did , and under that pretence trample under foot all their christian brethren in the world , who have as great and better portion in the inheritance of god their father and of the church than themselves . the words of augustine in his sermon super gestis emeriti , are not , that out of the church an heretick may have all things but salvation . for he saith , he may have the faith , which he would not say of the heretick , but he speaks it of the donatists , which whether it be true or no is nothing to protestants , who are and may be in the true church of christ , and have salvation , though they be not in the roman church . the words of augustine epist . . concerning the donatists , that they were with other christians in baptism , in the creed , and in the other sacraments of the lord , but in the spirit of unity , in the bond of peace , and finally in the catholick church you are not with us ; do not at all touch protestants , who are in the catholick church with other christians , though not with the roman party , who are most like the donatists ; and the protestants hold with augustine in the same epistle , that that kinde of letters ( to wit , of bishops , such as hilary , cyprian , &c. ) is to be distinguished from the authority of the canon of the scripture . for they are not so read as if testimony were brought out of them , that it may not be lawfull to think to the contrary , if perhaps they thought otherwise than the truth requires . sect . iv. h. t. hath not solved the objections acquiting protestants from schism and heresie , and condemning papists . it follows in h. t. objections solved . object . we separated onely from the church of rome's errours . answ . yea , from her catholick and apostolical doctrines . she doth not erre in faith , as hath been proved . i answer therefore with st. augustine to the donatists ; i object to you the crime of schism , which you will deny , and i will presently prove , because you do not communicate with all nations , cont . petil. add , no nor with any nation before luther . i reply , that we separate from any other than the church of rome 's errours , and sins , is said , but not proved , and that she , that is , the bishop of rome and his party do not erre in faith is not proved , but impudently said against plain evidence of scripture , councils , and fathers , and i reply by retorting augustine's words . i object to you the crime of schism , which you will deny , and i will presently prove , because you do not communicate with all nations , particularly you english recusant papists h. t. and the rest are manifest schismaticks , for you separate from the catholick church in that you do not communicate with the protestant church of christ in england . it is false , that those who held the same truth with protestants under other names , held no communion with any nation before luther : for as far as they could , and ought , they held communion with a. called on the name of the lord jesus in france , bohemia , england , and elsewhere , under the names of waldenses , hussites , picards , wiclevists , lollards , and such like . h. t. adds . object . we refused onely the church of rome's innovations and superstitions . answ . you slander . her discipline and doctrines were the same then that they have been in all precedent ages . did the church perish ( saith st. augustine to the donatists , or did she not ? if she did , what church brought forth the donatists ? ( or the protestants ? ) if she did not , what madness moved you to separate your selves from her , on pretence of avoiding the communion of bad men ? lib. . cont . gaudent . cap . and again , we are certain no man can justly separate himself from the communion of all nations ( yet martin luther and mr. tyndal did it ) epist . . and in another place , all separation made before the drawing of the net on the shore ( at the day of judgement ) is damnable and the sacrilege of schism , which surpasseth all other crimes , lib. . cont . epist . parmen . i reply , it is a scolds trick to say we slander , and not to prove it . we prove out of paul's epistle to the romans , that the roman church then held justification by faith without works , that every soul even popes were to be subject to princes , that the scriptures are to be the rule of faith , that the church of rome might fail , that the roman church is but a particular church , that it is evil to judge christians for not observing difference of meats and days , that it is idolatry to do , as papists now do , worshiping the creature with such worship as belongs to the creatour , that we are not to invocate saints in whom we believe not , with sundry more , in which the present roman church hath swe●ved from the primitive . we prove out of gregory the great himself , that the doctrine and discipline of the roman church is not the same now as it was in all precedent ages , for he rejected the title of universal bishop now usurped by the pope , and disavowed the worship of images , with other things now received at rome , and before him pope gelasius termed the denying the cup to the lay-people sacrilegious . augustine himself hath taught us to account his words below scripture-canon : yet his speeches touch not us , who do not separate our selves from the church of christ on pretence of avoiding communion of bad men , but from the papacy on full proof that the communion of the popish church is imposed on conditions of acknowledging such errours , and practising such idolatry as are damnable . we do not say , that the church perished , but that it was continued in a remnant of persecuted saints . we need not allege any church for our mother , but the jerusalem which is abov● , which is the mother of us all , gal. . . i judge it no better than an inconsiderate speech to say , any visible church is the mother of christians , it is in my apprehension all one as to say , the church is the mother of the church , christians or believers being all one with the church , and therefore count such speeches , whoever father or prelate he be that useth them , no better than ridiculous non-sense , and much more to call bishops our fathers in christ , and yet to term them the church also and our mother . nor need we allege a church that brought us forth , it is sufficient we can prove our faith to be according to the gospel , and allege that we have been begotten by it , which way soever it be . were not the ●berians a church of christians who were converted by ● captive maid when there was no church there before , and the indians by ●rumentius without a church to bring them forth ? may not a man have faith and salvation in a wilderness where he knows of no church ? neither did luther nor tyndal separate themselves from all nations , but were expelled and pe●secuted by the devilish popes and popish clergy of rome , when they endeavoured to restore the purity of the gospel to the germans , english , and other nations . if augustine meant simply , that all separation made before the day of judgement is damnable , he wrote that which is not true , it being contrary to paul's practise , acts . . god's command , cor. . . tim. . thess . . . revel . . . he himself acknowledgeth lib. . cont epist . p●rmen . cap. . a man is not to associate with others when he cannot have society with them but by doing evil with them . but if he meant it of such separation as the donatists made ( as it is likely he doth ) it toucheth not us , who separate not from the romanists , because some evil men are tolerated , but because errour , idolatry , and other evils are urged on us by them , and such is their tyranny , that without yielding to them there is no communion , but in stead thereof banishment or burning . once more saith h. t. object . we did but separate from the particular church of rome . therefore not from the whole church . answ . i told you it the question of the churches universality in what sense the church of rome i● universal or catholick , and in what sense she is particular , take it in which acception you will your consequence is false , for whosoever separates from an acknowledged true member of the catholick church ( and such the church of rome then was in her particular ) he consequently separates from the whole , and is an heretick or schismatick . i reply , neither as it is taken for the congregation of rome or italy , nor as it notes a collection of all the churches holding communion with the see of rome is the roman church rightly termed the catholick church : the non-sense and falshood thereof is shewed before art. . sect. . nor is it true that he that separates from the catholick roman church , in either sense is an heretick or schismatick . and to his proof i say , . that many protestants deny the roman church a true member of the catholick church when luther separated , but call it an antichristian and malignant church ; and they that acknowledge it a true church , in respect of the truth of being , yet not of doctrine , and they that say it had the truth of being , say it not of the predominant part , but of the latent , conceiving it was with them as it was with israel in the days of elijah , that they did not own those errours and evils which were practised in them , or avouched by them , though living among them , or if they did yield to them , or some of them , they had pardon , as doing it in ignorance , retaining the old creed of the apostles : and they attribute the truth of it to the few fundamental articles which they held , who were in it , though very unsoundly by reason of the errours and corruptions mixed with them , which made the church among the romanists as a leprous man unfit for converse and communion , with whom though they might continue for a time in expectation of their repentance , yet they might say to rome being found u●c●rable , as the jews to babylon , jer. . . we would have healed babylon , but she is not healed : forsake her , and let us go every one into his own countrey : for her judgement reacheth unto the heaven , and is lifted up unto the skies . . that it is not universally true , that he who separates from an acknowledged true member of the catholick church separtes from the whole there may be a separation partial not total , privative not positive , out of prejudice and passion , in heat not in heart , as between paul and barnabas , acts . . chrysostome and epiphanius , temporary not perpetual , in prudence though not out of absolute necessity , necessary not voluntary , just and not rash , without revolt from the faith , or persecution of those from whom it is made . in many of these sorts there may be a separation which may be from an acknowledged true member of the catholick church , and yet no separation from the whole . and therefore this position of h. t. will not be yielded him without better proof and demonstration , that the separation from the church of rome which protestants have made cannot stand with union with the catholick church in doctrine and discipline . which sure he hath not yet proved , nor is it likely he ever will : but as the fashion of these scriblers is , sing over again and again their cuckoes song of the catholick roman church , and that protestants are hereticks and sectaries , with other popish gibberish , though the folly and frivolousness thereof hath been a thousand times demonstrated . i have thus at last examined these nine articles , being moved thereto out of hope to do some souls good by recovering them out of the snare in which they are held by satan and romish emissaries . if they shut their eys against the light , their judgement will be of themselves . i shall add prayer for them , that god would open their eys , and , if time , health , and other concurrences suit with my aims , discover the vanity of the rest of h. t. his manual . in the mean time , not as some romanists blasphemously praise be to the virgin mother , in the end of their writings , but as paul concluded his epistle to the romans so do i , to god onely wise be glory through jesus christ for ever . amen . finis . the contents . article i. the church of rome is not demonstrated to be the true church of god by its succession . page sect. . of the title of h. t. his manual , in which is shewed to be a vain vaunt of what he hath not performed . ibid. . of the epistles prefixed , in which he ascribes too much to the church , and deceitfully begins with her authority . . his tenet of the falsity of all churches , not owning the pope is shewed to be most absurd . . the succession required by h. t. is not necessary to the being of a true church . . none of the texts alleged by h. t. prove a necessity to the being of a true church of such succession as he imagines . . the succession pretended in the roman church proves not the verity of the roman church , but the contrary . . the catalogue of h. t. is defective for the proof of his pretended succession in the roman church in the first three hundred years . . the catalogue of h. t. is defective for the proof of his pretended succession in the roman church in the fourth and fifth centuries of years . . the defect of h. t. his catalogue for proof of his succession in sixth , seventh , eighth , ninth , tenth centuries is shewed . . the defect of his catalogue in the eleventh and twelfth ages is shewed . . the defect of his catalogue in the thirteenth and fourteenth ages is shewed . . the defect of his catalogue in the fifteenth and sixteenth ages is shewed . . the close of h. t. is retorted . . h. t. hath not solved the protestants objections . article ii. protestants have that succession which is sufficient to demonstrate them to be a true church of god. sect. . protestant churches need not prove such a succession as papists demand . ibid. . the argument of h. t. against protestants doth as well prove the nullity of the roman church for want of succession as of the protestants . . protestants have had a succession sufficient to aver their doctrine . . the succession in the greek churches may be alleged for protestants , notwithstanding the exceptions of h. t. . the doctrine of romanists was not the doctrine of the fathers of the first five hundred years , nor is acknowledged to be so by learned protestants . . the answers of h. t. to the objections of protestants concerning their succession are shewed to be vain , and the apostasie of the roman church is proved . article iii. such visibility of succession as the romanists require is not proved to be necessary to the being of a true church . sect. . exteriour consecration and ordination of ministers is not necessary to the being of a visible church : and what h. t. requires of ministers preaching and administring sacraments is most defective in the roman church . ibid. . neither isai . . matth. . . psalm . ( ) . nor the words of irenaeus , origen , cyprian , chrysostome , augustine , prove such a church visibility as h. t. asserts . . h. t. hath not solved the protestants objections against the visibility of the church , as it is by h. t. asserted . article iv. the church of rome is not that one catholick church , which in the apostolick and nicene creeds is made the object of christian faith. . 〈◊〉 in non-fundamentals of faith and in discipline is not essentially presupposed to the universality of the church militant . ibid. . the ambiguity of h. t. his saying of the roman church its unity and universality is shewed . . unity of discipline under one visible head , and of faith without division in lesser points , is not proved from cor. . . ephes . . , . john . . cor. . . acts . . john . . and the nicene creed necessary to the churches being . . it is notoriously false that the romanists are perfectly one , or have better unity or means of unity than protestants , and h. t. his argument from the unity of the church is better against than for the roman church . . the argument of h. t. from the unity of a natural body is against him for protestants . . the universality which matth. . . ephes . . , . john . , . luke . . for time , psalm . ( ) . isai . . matth. . . psalm . . for place , agrees not to the now roman church , but may be better said of the protestants . . the words of irenaeus , origen , lactantius , cyril of jerusalem , augustine are not for the universality of h. t. by which he asserts the catholicism of the roman church but against it . . it is non-sense or false to term the roman church the catholick church , and the shifts of h. t. to avoid this objection are discovered . article v. the roman church is neither proved to be the catholick church , nor the highest visible judge of controversies , nor is it proved that she is infallible both in her propositions and definitions of all points of faith , nor to have power from god to oblige all men to obey her under pain of damnation , but all this is a meer impudent arrogant claim of romanists that hath no colour of proof from scriptures or antiquity . sect. . the decit of h. t. in asserting an infallibility and judicature of controversies in the church , which he means of the pope , is shewed . ibid. . luke . . proves not the roman or catholick churches infallibility . . matth . . or . john . . mark . , . make nothing for the claim of the roman church , or popes , or oecumenical councils infallibility . . none of these texts matth. . . tim. . . matth. . . john . john . . acts . . do prove the infallibility in points of faith of the catholick or roman church , or the pope , or a general council approved by him . . there may be good assurance of the word of god and its meaning , and of our salvation without supposing the churches infallibility . . neither can the church oblige men under pain of damnation to believe her definitions of faith , nor is there any such judicature as h. t. asserts to be ascribed to her , nor do any of the fathers words cited by h. t. say it is , the words of irenaeus , cyprian , lib. . epist . . august . contr . epist . fundam . cap. . &c. are shewed not to be for it , but some of them plainly against it . . the objections from scripture and reason against the infallibility which h. t. ascribes to the church are made good against his answers . . the objections of protestants against the churches infallibility from fathers and councils are vindicated from h. t. his answers . article vi. the roman church is not demonstrated to be the true church by her sanctity and miracles . sect. . the texts brought by h. t. to prove that the true church is known by sanctity and miracles are shewed to be impertinent . ibid. . the sanctity of men in former ages proves not the holiness of the present roman church . . the imagined holiness of benedict , augustine , francis , dominick , proves not the verity of the now roman church . . the roman church is not proved to be the true church by the holiness of its doctrine , but the contrary is true . . the devotion of the romanists shews not the holiness of the roman church , it being for the most part will-worship and pharisaical hypocrisie . . the power of working miracles is no certain mark of the true church . . the popish pretended miracles prove not the truth of their church , nor the miracles related by some of the fathers . . the objections against the proof of the verity of the roman church from the power of miracles are not solved by h. t. article vii . the pope's or bishop of rome's supremacy or headship of the whole church is not proved by h. t. sect. . neither is it proved nor probable that peter was bishop of rome , or that he was to have a successour . ibid. . from being the foundation , matth. . . and feeding the sheep of christ , john . , . neither peter's nor the pope's supremacy is proved . . the text matth. . . proves not any rule or dominion in peter over the apostles , but a promise of special success in his preaching . . john . , , . proves not peter's supremacy over the whole church . . peter's charge to confirm his brethren , luke . . and his priority of nomination , prove not his supremacy . . the late popes of rome are not successours of peter . . the sayings of fathers and councils prove not peter's or the popes supremacy . . the holy scriptures john . . acts . , . luke . . cor. . . overthrow the pope's supremacy . . cyprian , hierome , gregory , the councils of constantinople , chalcedon , nice , are against the pope's supremacy . . of the emperours calling councils , pope joan , papists killing princes excommunicate , not keeping faith with hereticks . ● article viii . the unwritten tradition which h. t. terms apostolical is not the true rule of christian faith. sect. . the argument for apostolical tradition as the rule of faith from the means of planting and conserving faith at first is answered . ibid. . unwritten traditions are not proved to be the true rule of faith from the assurance thereby of the doctrine and books of christ and his apostles . . the obligation of the church not to deliver any thing as a point of faith but what they received proves not unwritten tradition a rule of faith. . counterfeits even in points of faith might and did come into the church under the name of apostolick tradition without such a force as h. t. imagines necessary thereto . . the romanists can never gain their cause by referring the whole trial of faith to the arbitrement of scripture , but will be proved by it to have revolted from christianity . . sayings of fathers and councils prove not unwritten traditions a rule of faith. . objections from scripture for its sufficiency without unwritten traditions are vindicated from h. t. his answers . . h. t. solves not the objections from reason for the scriptures sufficiency without unwritten traditions . article ix . protestants in not holding communion with the roman church , as now it is , in their worship , in not subjecting themselves to the pope as their visible head , in denying the new articles of the tridentin council and pope pius the fourth his bull , are neither guilty of schism nor heresie . but papists by ejecting them for this cause , and seeking to impose on them this subjection are truly schismaticks , and in holding the articles which now they do are hereticks . sect. . h. t. his definitions of schism and heresie are not right . ibid. . protestants are not proved to be sectaries by the first beginning of reformation . . the sayings of fathers prove not protestants hereticks or schismaticks . . h. t. hath not solved the objections acquitting protestants from schism and heresie , and condemning papists . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e ecclesia christi est quae luscipit à christo doctrinam , seu cujus fides sundatur authoritate christi . thomas whitsonus bucci , tract . . sect. . watson quodlib . p. , , . a short catechism about baptism. by john tombes, b.d. tombes, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) a short catechism about baptism. by john tombes, b.d. tombes, john, ?- . [ ] p. printed by henry hills, next door to the sign of the peacock in aldersgate-street, london : . signatures: a b⁴ (-a ). annotation on thomason copy: "may"; "may. ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng catechisms, english -- early works to . baptism -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no a short catechism about baptism.: by john tombes, b.d. tombes, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a short catechism about baptism . by john tombes , b. d. heb. . . of the doctrine of baptisms . luke . . but wisdom is justified of all her children . london : printed by henry hills , next door to the sign of the peacock in aldersgate-street , . to the christian reader . many are the things at this day charged on antipaedobaptists in their doctrine and practise , which have been proved to be unjustly imputed to them , by many large treatises extant in print . for a more facile understanding of the truth then by reading larger tracts , is this compendium , in a manner of a catechism composed and published in this time , wherein others of different judgement , have thought fit to declare their way to the world , which is done not because this point of baptism is judged the onely or main point of our religion , but because the disagreement in other things is either small , or of particular persons ( whose cause is to be severed from that which is commonly held ) and therefore requires not a distinct confession or declaration from that which is by others published . the aim of the composer of it is the manifestation of the truth , wherein he doth rejoyce , and desires thou mayest rejoyce with him . his motion is that of the apostle , phil. . , . as many of us as be perfect let us be thus minded , and if ye be otherwise minded , god shall reveal even this unto you . nevertheless whereunto we have already attained , let us walk by the same rule , let us mind the same thing . farewell . a short catechism about baptism . quest . . is baptism with water an ordinance of christ , to be continued by his disciples till the end of the world ? answ . baptism with water is an ordinance of christ , which is to be continued by his disciples till the end of the world ; as appears by his command , mat. . , . mark . , . it being to be joyned with preaching of the gospel , and making disciples , by preaching , & teaching them to observe all that christ commands , and so to be continued while these are to continue , which is proved to be till the end of the world , by christs promise of his being with them till then , which were vain , if the things appointed were not to be done so long . quest . . is not the end of the world , as much as the end of that age ? answ . it appears that matthew means by the end of the world , the last time , or day , wherein there will be a separation of good and bad , the one to be burned with fire , and the other to shine as the sun , in that in the places wherein matthew useth the self-same form of speech ( to wit , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} matth. . , , . matth. . . ) he cannot be understood to mean any other . quest . . may not the baptizing in matth. . . mark . . be understood of some other baptism then that of water ? answ . the baptism there , must needs be understood of baptism by water , sith baptizing , where ever it is made john baptists or the disciples act which they did or were to do , is meant of baptizing with water , as john . , . and in many other places it appears ; and the apostles by their practise and command , acts . . . acts . . . . acts . , . shew that they so understood christs appointment , mat. . . mark . . quest . may it not be meant of baptizing by the spirit , or afflictions ? answ . it cannot be so understood , sith baptizing with the spirit is no where ascribed to any other then christ , matth. . . luke . . nor is baptism with the spirit a duty for us to do , but a free gift of christ ▪ not common to all disciples of christ , but peculiar to some : and to appoint them the baptizing by affliction , had been to make the apostles persecutors . quest . . why did paul then say , christ sent him not to baptize ? cor. . . answ . not because he was not appointed at all to baptize , for if so , he would not have baptized those he did baptize , cor. . . . &c. but because it was not the chief thing he was to do , as when the washing of water is said not to save , pet. . . because it is not the onely or principal means of saving . quest . . what is the baptizing appointed by jesus christ ? answ . the baptizing appointed by jesus christ , is dipping of the whole body in water into the name of the father , son , and holy ghost , as is manifest from the term baptizing , and the use of going into and coming up out of the water , mat. . . acts . , . the use of much water , john . . the resembling , by the baptism used , the burial and resurrection of christ , rom. . . col. . . and the testimonies of the ancients of the first ages . quest . . may not the sprinkling or powring water on the face , be the baptism of christ ? answ . neither the scripture , nor any ancient authour call sprinkling , or pouring water on the face , baptism , nor any use of it in the primative times doth countenance it , and therefore such sprinkling or pouring water is not the baptism which christ appointed . quest . . what is it to baptize into the name of the father , son , and holy ghost ? answ . it is not to baptize onely with the naming of those persons , but into the profession of the father , son , and holy ghost , as our master or teacher , as appears by the words of paul , cor. . . which shew that if the corinthians had been baptized into the name of paul , they had professed him to be their master . quest . . are they rightly baptized , who are baptized into the name of jesus christ , though no other person be named ? answ . they are , it being all one to baptize into the name of jesus christ , and to baptize into the name of the father , son , and holy ghost , as appears by the precept , acts . . and practice acts . . acts . . though the expression of each person be convenient . quest . . are the persons to be baptized altogether passive in their baptism ? answ . no ; for baptism is their duty required of them as well as the baptizer , acts . . and paul is commanded to arise and be baptized , and wash away his sins , calling on the name of the lord , acts . . quest . . who are appointed to baptize ? answ . they who are appointed to preach the gospel , matth. . . mark . , . quest . . whom are they appointed to baptize ? ausw . those who repent of sin , believe in christ jesus , and are his disciples , mat. . . mark . . acts . . acts . . quest . . were not infants baptized , when whole housholds were baptized , acts . ● . . ? answ . no ; for it appears not there were any infants in the houses , and the texts shew they were not baptized , sith the word was spoken to al in the house , ver. . and all the house rejoyced believing god , ver. . and else where the whole house is said to do that which infants could not do , acts . . acts . . cor. . . compared with cor. . . john . . quest . . is not christs speech and action to little children , matth. . , . mark . , , . luke . , . a warrant to baptize infants ? answ . no , but an argument against it , sith christ did neither baptize , nor appoint those little children to be baptized . quest . . why should not infants be baptized sith they were circumcised ? answ . the reason why male infants were to be circumcised , was a particular command of god to abrahams house for special ends belonging to the time before christ , which baptism hath not , nor is there any command to use baptism according to the rule of circumcision . quest . . did not baptism come in the room of circumcision , col. . , . and so to be used as it was ? answ . the apostles words import not that our baptism came in the room of the jews circumcision , there is no mention of any bodily circumcision but christs , which our baptism cannot be said to succeed to , as there it is made the cause of spiritual circumcision , without arrogating that to it which belongs to christ alone , and baptism is mentioned with faith , as the means whereby we are in christ , and compleat in him . quest . . may we be said to be compleat as the jews without infant baptism ? answ . our compleatness is in that we have not ordinances as the jews had , but we are compleat in that we have all in christ without them , col. . , , . quest . . have not our children then less priviledge then the jews had ? answ . no , for circumcision was a priviledge onely for a time , and comparatively to the estate of the gentiles who knew not god , but of it self was a heavy yoke , acts . . gal. . . . . quest . . why did the jews then so much contend for it , acts . . . answ . because they too much esteemed the law , and knew not their liberty by the gospel . quest . . had it not been a discomfort to the believing jews to have their children unbaptized , and so out of covenant ? answ . the want of baptism to infants was never any grievance to believers in the new testament , nor were they thereby put out of the covenant of grace . quest . . was not the proper reason of circumcising the infants of the jews the interest which they had in the covenant to abraham , gen. . . to be a god to him and his seed ? answ . the end of circumcision was indeed to be a token of the whole covenant made with abraham , gen. . , , , , . not onely the promise , ver. . but the formal proper distinguishing reason why some were to be circumcised , and others not , was gods command alone , not the interest in the covenant ; sith ishmael who was not a child of promise , gen. . , . rom. . , , , . and those who were in abrahams house , though not of his seed , were circumcised , but no females , nor males under eight dayes old . quest . . was not the covenant with abraham , gen. . the covenant of grace ? answ . it was , according to the hidden meaning of the holy ghost , the evangelical covenant , gal. . . but according to the open sense of the words , a covenant of special benefits to abrahams inheriting natural posterity , and therefore not a pure gospel covenant . quest . . are not believers children comprehended under the promise , to be a god to abraham and his seed ? gen. . . answ . no , unless they become abrahams seed according to election of grace by faith . quest . . did circumcision seal the gospel covenant ? rom. . . answ . that text speaks not of any ones circumcision , but abrahams , which sealed the righteousness of faith he had before circumcision , and assured thereby righteousness to all , though uncircumcised , who should believe as he did . quest . . are not the sacraments of the christian , church in their nature , seals of the covenant of grace ? answ . the scripture doth no where so call them , nor doth it mention this as their end and use . quest . . doth not peter , acts . , . exhort the jews to baptize themselves and their children , because the promise of grace is to believers and their children ? answ . those he then spake to were not then believers , and therefore the words , acts . . cannot be understood of a promise to believers and their children as such , but the promises to all , fathers and children , as called of god : nor are any exhorted to baptism without fore-going repentance , nor is the promise alledged as conferring right to baptism , but as a motive to encourage them to hope for pardon , though they wished christs blood to be on them and their children , matth. . . in like sort as joseph did , gen. . , , . quest . . are not the children of believers holy with covenant-holiness , and so to be baptized , cor. . . answ . there is nothing there ascribed to the faith of the believer , but to the mariage relation , which was the onely reason of their lawfull living together , and of which alone it is true that all the children of those parents , whereof one is sanctified to the other , are holy , the rest unclean , that is , illegitimate . quest . . are not the gentile believers children to be ingraffed by baptism with their parents , as the jews children were by circumcision ? rom. . , . answ . the ingraffing there is by giving faith according to election , and therefore not meant of parents and children by an outward ordinance into the visible church . quest . . are not infants of believers disciples , by their parents faith to be baptized ? matth. . . acts . . answ . no : for the disciples there are onely such as are made by preaching the gospel to them , nor are any termed disciples , but those who heard and learned : and the putting the yoke , acts . . was by teaching brethren , ver. . and therefore the disciples , vers. . not infants . quest . . are not the infants of believers visible members of the christian church , by a law and ordinance , by gods promise , to be god to them and their seed , and precept , to dedicate them to god , unrepealed ? answ . there is no such ordinance or law extant in scripture , or deducible from the law of nature , nor are infants anywhere reckoned as visible members of the christian church in the new testament . quest . . hath not god promised , gen. . , , . to make every believer a blessing , so as to cast ordinarily elect children on elect parents , and thereby warranted infant baptism ? answ . the promise doth not pertain to any believers seed but abrahams , who are heb. . , , . gal. . , . acts . . expounded to be christ and true believers onely , who are to be baptized , not their infants , till they themselves believe in their own persons . quest . . did not christ appoint , matth. . . the disciples to baptize children with parents , as the jews did proselytes ? answ . if the jewish baptism had been the pattern for christian , the apostles would have so practised , but their not so doing , shews they understood not it to be christs mind . quest . . is not the infant baptism sufficient if it be avouched at age ? answ . it is not a sufficient discharge of their obedience to christs command , which requires each person to be baptized after his own repentance and believing in christ , mark . . matth. . . acts . . ephes. . . quest . . what is the chief end of baptism ? answ . to testifie the repentance , faith , hope , love , and resolution of the baptized to follow christ , gal. . . rom. . , . cor. . . calling upon the name of the lord , acts . . quest . . how came infant baptism to be common in the christian churches ? answ . as infant communion came from mistake of john . . so infant baptism began about the third age of the christian church , from mistake of john . . the opinion of its giving grace , and the necessity of it to save the infant dying from perishing , and after augustins time became common , which before was not so frequent . quest . . is there any evil in it ? answ . infant baptism tends much to harden people in presumption , as if they were christians afore they know christ , and hinders much the reformation of christian churches , by filling them with ignorant and scandalous members , besides the great sin of profaning gods ordinance . quest . . have not opposers of infant baptism , been wicked in the end ? answ . blessed be god experience proves the contrary , though some heretofore proved seditious , and entertained great errors . quest . . is there any good by baptizing persons at age , which might not be , though infant baptism were continued ? answ . yes , for thereby they would be solemnly engaged to adhere to christ , which is a strong tie on the consciences , when it is done by a person understandingly , according to christs mind , besides the assurance thereby of union and conformity to christ , and righteousness and life by him , rom. . , . gal. . . pet. . . . quest . . what are christians to do when they are baptized ? answ. to associate together in church communion , and to walk according to their engagement , in obedience to them , who are over them in the lord . quest . . are persons so joyned to separate from those they have joyned to upon defect in outward order and ordinances , or variation from the rule therein by pastors or people ? answ . no , unless the evil be such in faith , worship , or discipline , as is not consistent with christianity , or the state of a visible church , or is intolerable oppression , maintained with obstinacy , after endeavors to cure them , to which end each member should keep and act in his station . finis . theodulia, or, a just defence of hearing the sermons and other teaching of the present ministers of england against a book unjustly entituled (in greek) a christian testimony against them that serve the image of the beast, (in english) a christian and sober testimony against sinful complyance, wherein the unlawfulness of hearing the present ministers of england is pretended to be clearly demonstrated by an author termed by himself christophilus antichristomachus / by john tombes. tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) theodulia, or, a just defence of hearing the sermons and other teaching of the present ministers of england against a book unjustly entituled (in greek) a christian testimony against them that serve the image of the beast, (in english) a christian and sober testimony against sinful complyance, wherein the unlawfulness of hearing the present ministers of england is pretended to be clearly demonstrated by an author termed by himself christophilus antichristomachus / by john tombes. tombes, john, ?- . [ ], [i.e. ], [ ] p. printed by e. cotes for henry eversden ..., london : . errata: p. [ ] at end. numerous errors in paging. reproduction of original in the bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng douglas, thomas, fl. . -- martyrion christianon, or, a christian and sober testimony against sinfull complyance. church of england -- apologetic works. dissenters, religious -- controversial literature. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion theodvlia : or , a just defence of hearing the sermons and other teaching of the present ministers of england . against a book unjustly entituled , ( in greek ) a christian testimony against them that serve the image of the beast . ( in english ) a christian and sober testimony against sinful complyance . wherein the unlawfulness of hearing the present ministers of england is pretended to be clearly demonstrated by an author termed by himself christophilus antichristomachus . by john tombes , b.d. luke . , . and john answered and said , master , we saw one casting out devils in thy name , and we forbade him , because he followeth not with us . and jesus said unto him , forbid him not , for he that is not against us is for us . london , printed by e. cotes for henry eversden under the crown tavern in west-smithfield . . perlegi hunc librum , cui titulus theodulia , in quo nihil reperio doctrinae , disciplinaeve ecclesiae anglicanae , aut bonis morihus contrarium . joh. hall s. t. b. rev. in christo patri humfredo d. episc. lond. à sac . dom . ex aedibus fulhamiens . calend. maii , . to the right honourable edward earl of clarendon lord chancellour of england . the great favour your honour hath vouchsafed me , and the great candour your ingenuity hath shewed in accepting some former writings , have imboldned me to present this also to your hands , not only that it might be some part of a plea for my self as not averse from union and peace , but also that it may somewhat conduce to a closing of that miserable breach , which that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as st. basil termed it , the unmeasurable drawing things in contrary ways hath made among us , as hoping that though difference of opinions should be incurable , yet the discords of protestants of the same faith are not incurable . to the remedy of which no person , after his majesty , by reason of your eminent authority and prudence , is likely to contribute more than your self . whereto if the lord make your lordship instrumental , it may be so blessed a work , as may tend much to your honour , and comfort in the day of the resignation of your spirit into the hand of him that gave it . the sad face of things in europe , chiefly by reason of differences about religion , makes it seem a deplorable thing , and should move every right-hearted christian to endeavour the composing of differences ( salva veritate ) that a deluge of popery or mahometanism may not overwhelm us . as for my self i expect no other event than obloquy from persons of this authors mind , and such like ; it being the usual lot of men that seek to part a fray to displease both parties , though i am not conscious to my self , that i have herein written or done any thing which might be a just grievance to any , my study being neither to uphold a rising party , nor to depress the dejected , but to promote truth and the publick peace , to which i have addicted my self , and in order thereto , subscribe my self , your honours devoted and deeply obliged servant in our lord john tombes . to the christian readers . especially those to whom at any time i have preached the word of god. sect. . prefaces needful by reason of readers prejudice . it was the order of the court of areopagites at athens , that pleas before them should be without proems , lest their passions being stirred by oratory , their judgment should be perverted ; and favourable inclination to a person , should cause a sentence to be passed by them , not congruous to the merit of the cause . and it were well , if in all controversies about matters of religion , there were so strict a law observed ; that in all disputes , whether by writing or conference , all such prefaces or expressions be severely prohibited and restrained , as tend to create prejudice and partial propension to one part more than to another . but experience too much informing us , that even in morals and matters of religion , though the consequent be their peace , or undoing , the guiding aright , or misleading their consciences ; yea , the salvation , or perdition of their souls ; treatises have their fate pro captu lectoris , as the readers or hearers are affected , each thing is received secundum modum receptivitatis recipientis , as the quality and mind of the receivers disposeth them ; insomuch that any corrupting errour from some whom they affect , is received by many , and the clearest truths are rejected by persons preoccupated with prejudice either against the thing , or person that doth deliver them . which makes it very necessary to blow away such du●● out of the ballance of mens minds , as might mak● the scales of their understanding unequal , what they are to weigh what is presented to it . i list not to give instances by mentioning such experiments as either former , or this present age have yielded , of the ill effects that debates have had through prejudices on both sides , against persons and things , caused by such preconceits as either education , relations , advantages , or engagements forestall men with ; being unwilling to rake out of the grave again such occurrences of this kind , as i hope are buried , and wish they may not be revived . nevertheless , ( sith i have too much intelligence , that personal exceptions have caused such misprisions , as are likely to hinder the equal judging of the present controversie , whereby as the writer is wronged , so the reader is much more wronged by himself , when he refuseth to examine the matter , though of much concernment to him , because he is by fame or other motive dis●ff●cted to the author ) i am induced to speak something of my self , and the occasion of this writing , and the history of this controversie , being necessitated thereto by the strange title , and preface of the book , i am now to examine . sect. . prejudice against the author , as favouring separation , causless . i find by very many evidences , that my writings about a point , which few can concoct , have caused such an aversness in the spirits of a great number , even of those that seem to be inquisitive into truth , that my later writings , even those which have been recommended to the world by the chief of my antagonists , though not much contradicted , yet have not found such receptions , as such arguments were deemed to require . which had discouraged me from this kind of imployment , did not the expectation of my giving account about the improvement of the talent committed to me by my lord and master , make me judge , that being restrained from publick preaching , i ought to use it in this way , out of hopes of serving my generatian therein . being busied in some other arguments , i met with the book which i here examine , and not long after with another , having this title [ prelatical preachers , none of christs teachers ] whereby i perceived , that the seeds of most rigid separation were sown , and did spread themselves much among many , whose good i conceived my self bound to endeavour ; and not only for their sakes , but also for the publick peace , ( as much as in me lies ) to pluck up such roots of bitterness ; which i rather thought did appertain to me to do , because i found that many that had heard of my judgment in another point , did imagine , that i must needs be also a separatist from the church and ministers as now they are ; and where my practice is known to the contrary , i have been censured as acting against my own tenet , yea , and my own light , and taken to be , and shunned as a deserter of that cause for which i have appeared : notwithstanding in many places of my writings i have disclaimed separation , for that , wherein i was dissenter from others , alwayes foreseeing , that a groundless separation would be endless , and therefore have still professed my desire of such a reformation as might be without separation from brethren , who are not heretical in the doctrine of christian faith , nor idolatrous in their worship ; nor impose that on me for communion with them , which i cannot yield to without sin against god , and accordingly did in express words in the addition to my apology , sect. . declare my willingness to joyn with any churches of christ , and unwillingness to be a separating member in any church , being willing to be a conjoyned member with all the churches of christ in general and each in particular . apol. p. . i abhor separation from my brethren in this regard : p. . i durst not gather a separated church , as not knowing how to justifie such a practice . in refutatione positionis dr. henrici savage , sect. . sanctissimè in conspectu domini corda scrutantis possum profiteri me in animo semper habuisse , ut si fieri posset , èsset reformatio absque separatione & animorum exacerbatione . praecursor . sect. . i am conscious to my self of using what means i could for reformation without schism if possible . yea , when some of those who agreed with me in that tenet , which my writings held forth differently from others , were moved to admit me to their communion , and they excepted against it , because i did not disclaim the church of england , nor renounce ordination by a bishop , nor desert my standing as a parish minister , nor my maintenance by tith or augmentation , nor my hearing with the world , as they used to speak , nor some such like practices as were inconsistent with the principles of the separatists : i refused many years ago to joyn with them that would not otherwise admit me than upon such terms ; but did answer their exceptions against me , and persisted in my refusal unto this day . and how averse my spirit and wayes have been from division , that antagonist of mine whose former writings had given occasion to men to conceive of me as a sect-master ; yet hath in his two epistles printed before my two books , one against the quakers about the insufficiency of each mans light within him for his guidance to god ▪ being nine sermons on joh. . . and the other , entituled , romanism discussed , against the papists assertions about their church and pope , declared his opinion of my inclinableneness to brotherly communion and agreement , notwithstanding our dissent . they to whom i was a teacher , even in the times of our greatest liberty , can bear me witness , that i alwayes withstood by writing and conference such insinuations as tended to alienate their minds from dissenters , and alwayes advised conjunction in church communion , and hearing such as taught the truth of the gospel in respect of the foundation , though in their worship and preaching , some hay and stubble were superadded : and therefore to shew my constancy in the same opinion and practice , i have conceived my self obliged to appear in this matter at this time . sect. . the evils consequent on the tenet of separation , urge to an examination of it . which i conceived my self the more urgently provoked to , by the direful imputation of serving the image of the beast , which the title of the book chargeth on the hearers of the present ministers ; and the terrible predictions which in the epistle to the reader seem to be levelled against compliance in hearing the present ministers ; as if it were likely to meet with the same judgment in the day of gods wrath with the antichristian beast ; and seeming commiserations of such as did joyn in communion with the publike church assemblies , in praying and preaching , as worshiping with the nations , waiting at the posts of an antichristian ministry , and through the power of temptation turned aside by the flocks of the companions ; and expostulating with such as forsaking the fountain of living waters , for broken cisterns that will hold no water ; changing their glory for that which will not profit , leaving the bread in their fathers house , and going a begging to the doors of strangers ; casting contempt upon the pure institutions of christ , and thereby provoking the lord to send leanness into their soul , giving occasion of grief and stumbling unto their brethren , pouring contempt upon the offices , wisdom , and faithfulness of christ , hardning persons in a false way of worshiping of god to their eternal ruine , disobeying the heavenly voice calling aloud to them to come from the lions dens , and mountains of the leopards , to come out of babylon ; admonishing them to arise , depart hence , this being not their rest , but polluted , to hasten their escape , and be like the he-goat before the flocks in their retreat from the tents of these false worshippers , lest being partakers of their sin , they receive of their plagues that are even ready to be poured forth . which is further pressed by intimating as if this may be the last warning such may have from god. which passages if i should my self read without commotion of mind , as if they were brutum fulmen , a great thunderclap without any thunderbolt ; yet i doubted whether they might not have such operation on many well-meaning persons , as to affright them from any hearing or communion with the present church or teachers , as judging such compliance a damnable sin , such as the scripture makes drinking of the cup of fornication of the whore of babylon , receiving the mark of the beast in their forehead , and in their hand and in some an irremissible sin ; like that of blasphemy against the holy ghost ; which must needs produce these woful effects , an irreconcilable enmity between the separatists and such as hold communion with the present churches and their pastors ; and if the law should not be mitigated , the utter ruine of many thousands , in respect of their liberties , estates , and perhaps lives ; or else the violation of their consciences , if being possessed with these notions out of fear , or secular hope they yield to things of so direful an aspect ; which things have appeared to me of so great importance , that i conceived both prudence and charity bound me to examine these pretences , and to inform my self and others of what i found conducible to the preventing of those sad consequences which attend the compliance , if it it be such as it is pretended to be ; and the unyieldingness to what laws injoyn , if it be not such an evil as it is accused to be . that which dr. john burges in his rejoinder , said p. . is to be considered . as under the name of christ and pretence of advancing his honour , antichrist was set up ; so it is possible that under the name of antichrist , and under the opinion of only opposing him , even the kingdom of christ may be pulled down : and in part already is so , and men scarcely feel or fear it . sect. . the motive and end of this writing . whereunto i have been further incited by the relations i have met with ; of the practices and success of separatists of elder and later times : which have for the most part ended in some prodigious errours , or endless brawls , and other effects as have caused great hinderance to the progress of the gospel , and the disturbance both of the ecclesiastical and civil peace in those places where they have had any considerable duration . nor do our own times want such experiments of the discords which have fallen out by such separation ; the factions that have been in the congregations of men of that perswasion , the many , not only vain fansies , but also opinions destructive of true religion and christian faith , as have been vented through a promiscuous liberty of so called prophecying , and adhered to by many of the weaker s●rt of those of that way , as have caused many both learned , godly , and considerate divines , even of those who were non-conformists , to account the way of separation as a very pernicious evil ; and accordingly have by preaching , writing , and conferences , opposed it to the uttermost of their power . the sense of which moved me to look upon the book here examined , together with the other forenamed , of the same kind , and some such as have been divulged to the same purpose , as blazing stars portending some such danger , as we all may have cause to rue ; tending to keep open , yea , and widen our breaches , which the romanists foment , and hope thereby in time to make advantage of for their own designs . hoc ithacus velit , & magno mercentur atridae . for preventing of such malignant influence as that treatise may have on many souls who are well affected , but not so cautelous as were requisite , chiefly those to whom heretofore i have been a teacher , i have composed this writing , which i advise and request the reader to peruse without any such prejudice , or preingaged partiality , as the epistle of this author tends to beget in the readers of his work , seriously considering that the right regulating of his own judgment and practice , and the promoting of the publick peace , are of more value than either his own credit , or the contenting of those that are otherwise minded ; and that in all enquiries for the satisfaction of our conscience , and doing our duty truth only is to be sought after , which hath been , and still is the aim of , your brother and servant in christ jesus iohn tombes . the contents . in the epistle to the readers sect. . prefaces needful by reason of readers prejudice . sect. . prejudice against the author , as favouring separation causless . sect. . the evils consequent on the tenet of separation urge to an examination of it . sect. . the motive and end of this writing . in the answer to the preface . sect. . of the worship of god , and how hearing is worship of him . sect. . of hearing how instituted worship , and to be devolved on the scriptures of the new testament . sect. . hearing not a meer positive or ceremonial worship . sect. . the judgment of the ancients not useless in this controversie sect. . no approved practice of the saints afore the law countenanceth separation from the present preachers in england . sect. . jewish laws admitted some dispensation and addition . sect. . the election or ordination of levites is no rule for election or ordination of ministers now . sect. . the texts injoyning the things appointed , prove not that some things undetermined might not in gods worship be ordered by men . sect. . the defection of the jews to idolatrous inventions of men , is of a more hainous degree , than the use of humane ceremonies with us . sect. . such testimony as the prophets gave against the jewish defection , is not now to be given against the conformists . sect. . the conformists not chargeable as the false prophets of the jews . sect. . invectives against teachers and worship now , may be from another spirit , than that of the prophets . sect. . the forsaking of false prophets and worship among the jews , is no justification of separation from the present teachers and worship . sect. . the arguing by analogy in positive rites , not rational . sect. . the first querie about a national church instituted , answered . sect. . national ministers may be ministers of christ , and national churches true churches . sect. . mr. parkers arguments that the form of churches is of divine institution , are answered . sect. . the ministry of the gospel is a true ministry of christ. sect. . a true gospel ministry may be in a false church so deemed sect. . gods love to us is not less in not determining the whole of his worship to us , as he did to the jews . sect. . christ designed officers and offices for his church ( not as were in the jewish ) which are the same while their work is the same , though some titles be new . sect. . the solemn deputation of ministers , is not the peculiar priviledge of saints . sect. . corruptions in non-fundamentals unchurch not . sect. . every errour makes not a false prophet . sect , . separation by reason of some corruptions unwarrantable . sect. . it is prudence to joyn in worship and hearing , where some errours and corruptions remain . chap. . arg. . sect. . some scruples of conscience are of ill consequence . sect. . there is warrant in scripture to hear the present ministers of england . sect. . accidentals of instituted worship warranted without command in scripture . sect. . prejudice is no argument , nor personal motives good proof . chap. . arg. . sect. . preachers may be heard as teaching truth . sect. . they may be heard as ministers of the gospel , who are not rightly called . sect. . preachers may be ministers of the gospel , who are not chosen by a particular instituted church . sect. . the present ministers may be heard as gifted brethren . sect. . tender consciences may call the bishops rev. fathers . sect. . it is not proved that the best of the present ministers are to be separated from as walking disorderly . chap. . arg. . sect. . that which is by some termed antichristian , is not always unlawful . sect. . the names given to the ministers of england prove not their office not to be from christ. sect . the term priest proves not symbolizing with the popish order of priests , sect. . the parallel particulars prove not the english ministers symbolizing in office with popish priests . sect. . the office of bishops is not proved to be antichristian , but may be found in scripture . sect. . the office of lord bishops is not contrary to express precepts of christ in the scripture . sect. . the office of lord bishops not from the papacy . sect. . the ordination of bishops is also of presbyters . chap. . arg. . sect. . they that deny not christs offices doctrinally may be heard . sect. . every not hearkening to christs order is not a denial of his office. sect. . it is not proved that christs sovereign authority is rejected by the present ministers . sect. . ministers oppose not the will of christ , by not joyning in the separation pleaded for . sect. . election and excommunication by the church are not christs institution . sect. . no contempt of the authority of christ is in the church of england by setting up officers and offices . sect. . election of ministers by the common suffrage of the church is not proved to be christs appointment . sects . prophecying is not opposed by the ministers . sect. . ministers service may be divine and spiritual in the use of the liturgy . sect. . things objected against the ministers are not such as justifie separation . chap. . sect. . all owning of orders different from , or contrary to christs , proves not a denial of his offices . sect. . ministers submitting to canons is unjustly censured . sect. . making canons in things undetermined , and subjection to them , agrees with scripture . sect. . it s no derogation from scripture , or christ , that such canons are made and obeyed . sect. . all particularities of decency and order in things sacred , are not determined in scripture . sect. . it s not proved that the ministers of england own constitutions contrary to the revelation of christ. sect. . a prescript form of words in prayer devised by man is not contrary to rom. . . cor. . . sect. . the admission of vitious persons to communion , justifies not separation . sect. . receiving of the lords supper kneeling , is not directly opposite to christs practice or precept of abstaining from appearance of evil , thess. . . sect. . forbidding to marry or eat flesh at certain times are not characters of apostates , as tim. . . is meant . sect. . no such headship is owned by the present ministers as is a denial of christs offices . sect. . conformity to laws opposite to christs , proves not owning another king co-ordinate to him . sect. . headship of the church under christ not monstrous . sect. . the kings supremacy is such as was allowed the kings of israel . chap. . arg. . sect . false doctrine only makes a false prophet not to be heard . sect. . the ministers not false prophets , because not sent , as jer. . . rom. . . is meant . sect. . the ministers not proved to commit adultery and walk in lyes as jer. . . is meant . sect. . the ministers are not proved to strengthen the hands of evil doers , as jer. . . is meant . sect. . the ministers are not proved such daubers as those , ezek. . . sect. . ministers changing of places , sadning some mens hearts , not characters of a false prophet . sect. . pressing rigid conformity no proof of the ministers being false prophets . sect. . the charge , ezek. . . reacheth not the ministers of england . sect. . the ministers are not the false shepheards , meant ezek. . . sect. . the ministers of england are not the second beast , foretold , rev. . . chap. . arg . sect , . all idolatry is exhibiting divine worship to a creature . sect. . all will-worship of god is not idolatry . sect. . this authors argument as well proves himself an idolater as the conformist . sect. . prayer in a stinted form may be worship of god of his appointment . sect. . common-prayer book worship shuts not out of doors the exercise of the gift of prayer . sect. . common-prayer book worship is not of pure humane invention . sect. . common-prayer book worship is the same with the worship of the reformed churches . sect. . no particularity instituted is a meer circumstance ; yet particularities undetermined are . sect. . praying in a form may be praying in the spirit . sect. . the forms of prayer imposed are not made necessary essential parts of worship . sect. . acting in the holy things of god by the office , power , and modes of idolaters may be without idolatry . sect. . the english ministers oppose popish idolatry as other protestants . sect. . the ministers of england act not by vertue of an office power from idolaters . sect. . the common-prayer book worship was not abused to idolatry . sect. . kneeling in the receiving the sacramental elements is not idolatry . sect. . the crimination of the ministers as idolaters is not excusable . sect. . the martyrs are unjustly made idolaters by this author . chap. . arg. . and , sect. . every offence of others makes not sinful that which is otherwise lawful . sect. . hearing the present ministers may be the saints duty . sect. . sinful scandalizing is not by hearing the present ministers . sect. . it is not scandal given but when the offensive action is done blameably . sect. . offending some sincere christians by hearing the present ministers , is not the scandalizing threatned , matth. . . sect. . the separatists give more just cause of offence to godly sober christians , than the conformists do to them . sect. . hearing the present ministers may be without participation with them in sin . chap. . arg , , , , . sect. . separation of some from other christians is no institution of christ. sect. . meeting of christians as a distinct body is not christs institution . sect. . separated congregational churches in opposition to national , are not of christs institution . sect. . to attend only on the ministry of ministers of congregational churches is not christs appointment . sect. . hearing the present ministers casts no contempt on christs institutions . sect. . hearing the present ministers hardens none in sin . sect. . gods people are not called out of the temples in england as places of false worship . sect. . there is ground to expect a blessing in hearing the present ministers . sect. . hearing the present ministers is no step to apostasie . sect. . pollution in one part makes not the whole worship polluted chap. . fifty arguments for hearing the present ministers . sect. . christs direction , matth. . , . warrants hearing the present ministers . sect. . the scribes and pharisees sate in moses his chair as teachers , not as magistrates . sect. . the pharisees were not church officers of gods appointment . sect. . christ allows hearing the pharisees while they taught the law of moses . sect. . hearing pharisees teaching moses law , not attendance on their ministry as pastors is allowed by christ. sect. . christ and his apostles going to the jewish meetings is opposite to the separatists opinion and practise . sect. . pauls rejoycing at the preaching christ of contention , warrants hearing the present ministers . sect. . the truth ministers teach , warrants the hearing of them . sect. . evil persons may be heard as true ministers . sect. . it is a sin not to encourage good men in their ministry . sect. . the example of the learned godly non-conformists is some inducement to hear the present ministers . sect. . the magistrates command to hear the present ministers is to be obeyed . sect. . conformists ministry instrumental to convert souls . sect. . to the observation of the lords day hearing the present ministers , as the case now is , may be requisite . sect. . an appendix containing forty additional reasons against denying the lawfulness of hearing the present ministers . sect. . some passages in the writings of mr. john goodwin opposite to the book , entituled , prelatical preachers none of christs teachers . theodvlia : or , a just defence of hearing the sermons and other teaching of the present ministers of england . in answer to the book , entituled , a christian and sober testimony against sinful complyance . an answer to the preface to the ensuing discourse of that book . having premised so much as i suppose may be of use to the reader , concerning the title and epistle to the reader of the book which i intend to examine , i proceed to a discussion of the book it self : which is more scholastical than the other treatise . entituled [ prelatical preachers none of christs teachers ] or any other that i have met with of late composure , and therefore more fit to be sifted for the bolting out of the truth by argument . it is distributed into a preface and ten chapters . i shall follow him in his method as being suitable enough , and comprehensive of that which may be said in this matter . s●ct . . of the worship of god , and how hearing is worship of him . first he conceives it a reasonable postulatum in the present enquiry concerning our part of the instituted worship of christ under the gospel , with respect unto the duty incumbent upon the saints ; in order thereunto , that the whole thereof be divolved upon the scriptures of the new testament ; and those royal lawes , that christ ( the alone king and law giver of his church ) hath given for saints under the new testament dispensation to walk by , untill they arrive unto a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of christ. eph. . . answ. the term [ worship of christ or worship of god used chap. . &c. ] imports such an action as whereby god is observed , served , or honoured as god , and christ as christ. all actions therefore , whereby god and christ are acknowledged and glorified under the proper consideration of god or christ as god or the messiah , are meant by worship of god and christ : either of which may be real , or putative and imaginary . they that worshipped the golden calf did proclaim a feast to jehovah , and said , these are thy gods o israel that brought thee out of the land of egypt . exod. . , . which shews they intended to worship jehovah as god by that feast , and the sacrificing to that idol , but this was not real worship of god , but only imaginary and false worship . real and true worship is either mediate or immediate . mediate is when any action of holiness or righteousness , is done in obedience to god as the motive or impulsive cause , to glorifie god as god , christ as christ , as the end or final cause ; yet not without respect to some other . so by works of righteousness , peace and joy in the holy ghost , christ is served acceptably to god , rom. . . servants that obey their masters fearing god do it to the lord and not to men , and thereby serve the lord christ , col. . , , . where the action of it self is not a worship of god or christ , but in respect of the motive and end , though the doing of the thing be not per se of it self a worship of god , yet it being done by vertue of gods command and in reference to him as god , it is in that respect a worship of god and a service of christ. immediate worship is that which is directed to god as the sole object of it without the intervention of any other , as for whose sake , end or use it is done , or upon whom it is terminated for his honour , though it may be that some other may be used as the means , by which the action is done . as for instance , offering sacrifice to god was immediate worship to god , though it were done by the priest : because , though the priest were used by reason of his office and dignity , yet it is not directed to , or terminated on him for his honour , nor out of any such respect of acknowledging superiority or excellency in him , as in a servants obedience to his master , nor to benefit him , or gratify him as in acts of righteousness to men out of obedience to god , but the action is done entirely , and immediately to and for god his honour , and glory , by testifying thereby his excellency , worthiness , soveraignty , goodness , or other excellency , which i conceive agreeable to the notion of worship , which seems to be a contract of [ worthyship ] and notes singular respect , esteem , or regard , by reason of some worth in the thing worshipped conceived in the heart , and expressed by some signe , the former being inward worship , the other outward , this ] gather from the use of the term worshipfull ; your worship given to superiours by reason of their dignity , and the use of the words in the solemnity of marriage , [ with my body i thee worship ] that is , honour thee in the sence in which st. peter epist. . . requires the husband 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to distribute , render , impart or give honour , esteem , price or valuation to the wife as his own for his use as a helper , or to gratifie her as in the old ritual alledged by mr. selden in his uxor ehraica , l. . c. . was in latin [ corpore meo te dignor ] i bestow on thee , to gratifie thee out of singular regard to thee , my body . both which notions seem to be implied in that old version of the words , sam. . . mentioned in the conference at hampton court [ them that honour me i will honour ] in the old [ them that worship me i will worship ] in the one our worshipping of god importing our glorifying him as god , as the expression is , rom. . . in the other gods worshipping of us his gratifying us as a benefactour , out of that love , favour and esteem he hath of us . now hearing is worship of god or christ in the former notion , it being for enquiry of god or christ , what is their minde or will towards us , out of apprehension of our dependence on them or respect to them , as a servant on his master , a scholler on his teacher . and then we worship god in hearing when we hear , as it is said of the thessalonians , thessal . . . that when they received the word of god , which they heard of st. paul and other teachers , they received it not as the word of men , but ( as it is in truth ) the word of god , which effectually worketh also in them that believe . hearing then , as it is a worship of god , is a seeking from god such revelation as may be for our benefit , arising from the apprehension we have of his omnisciency , goodness , wisdome , and truth , who neither can be deceived nor deceive , that he only knoweth all things , that we are to call no man our father upon the earth : for one is our father which is in heaven , mat. . . as on the contrary when ahazias kings . sent to baalzebub the god of ekron to enquire of that idol , he worshipped baalzebub , and when saul enquired of one that had a familiar spirit and not of the lord , chron. . , . he worshiped that familiar spirit . our lord christ is that prophet whom god requires us to hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto us , acts . . god , who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets , hath in these last dayes spoken to us by his son heb. . , . and they that hear his word as the person to whom all things are delivered by the father , mat. . . as he in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdome , and knowledge , col. . . as that great prophet who was to come into the world , luke . . do worship christ in hearing . as on the other side he that heareth any other as rabbi or master , in that sense in which christ asserts himself to be the only master , mat. . , . ( as the papists do , who enquire of the pope as infallible , when he speaks or determins from his chair ) doth worship him as his great prophet , rabbi , or master , which christ forbids as an usurpation of his prerogative . this worship of christ is immediate even when we enquire of his minde by hearing other teachers who bring his word to us , though not called as the apostles , and some others in the first planting of the christian churches , as he that attends to a kings proclamation read or brought by never so inconsiderable a person , declares by his loyal hearing of it his honouring of his prince , not of the reader , c●ier , or messenger . yea god is worshipped and christ honoured by hearing the gospel read as the word of god , as immediately and truly , though not so solemnly , by a boy at home , as by a pastor of a church . sect. . of hearing , how instituted worship , and to be devolved on the scriptures of the new testament . instituted worship of christ is such , as is by christs institution . now institutions , saith a civil lawyer , are praeceptions by which men are instructed and taught , as the books of ouintilian inscribed , institutions of orators , of lactantius divine institutions , of erasmus ▪ the institution of a christian prince , of aldus institutions of grammer , of calvin institutions of religion . instituted wo●ship of christ under the gospel is that which is by christs praeceptions taught , directed , or appointed in the times of the gospel since christs coming in the flesh. which may be meant of that natural or moral worship , which belongs to god or christ , such as are prayers to god , giving thanks to him , & such like . of this it is true in respect of the explicite way of prayer or thanksgiving in the name of jesus christ or such peculiar manner as belongs to the new testament , the whole thereof is to be divolved upon the scriptures of the new testament , that is , as i interpret his words , the direction or precept concerning it , is to be taken from the scriptures of the new testament , yet not excluding the directions and precepts of the scriptures of the old testament , nor the light of nature so far as that worship is perpetual and general to all people , and times , as being either natural or moral . of which sort i take hearing the word of god to be , though some peculiarities there are which the almighty hath tied us to in the new testament in hearing : as mat. ▪ . this is my beloved son in whom i am well pleased : hear ye him . luke . . he that heareth you heareth me , and he that despiseth you despiseth me , and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me . yet these passages do not exclude the precepts or directions of the old testament , but presuppose them to be heard and learned in respect of the matter therein contained , and the persons that reveal it , so our lord christ , luke . . they have moses and the prophets let them hear them . peter . . we have also a more sure word of prophecy ; whereunto you do well that ye take heed as unto a light that shineth in a dark place . nor do i meet with any prohibitions of hearing any but false-prophets , mat. . . deceivers , titus . . that teach other doctrin , tim . . john another gospel , gal. . , . our lord christ caveat is mark. . . take heed what ye hear , not warning them to avoid any that preacheth the same truth that he delivers ; though he more especially tyed his disciples to hear his apostles , and such other as were sent by them to him ; yet when all the church at jerusalem except the apostles ( which consisted of many thousands ) were scattered abroad by persecution , and went every where preaching the word , acts . , . it was no sin to hear them , they were not the strangers meant , john . . whom his sheep were to flee from , but rather they were bound to hear them in preaching his gospel , though not by any peculiar calling , designed for that work as their function , it being christs declaration , that his sheep hear his voice , john . . nor are the many precepts or directions in the old testament about hearing or reading , isai. . . in the books of the psalmes and proverbs , and other parts of holy scriptures vacated , but that they remain still rules to us about hearing in the new testament times , and therefore it seems not to me to be a reasonable postulatum or demand , that in the present enquiry of the lawfulness of hearing the present ministers of england , the whole thereof be devolved upon the scriptures of the new testament . sect. . hearing not a meer positive or ceremonial worship . but perhaps the author means by [ instituted worship of christ ] such as is meerly positive , or as we use to speak , ceremonial ; such as are baptism and the lords supper , which are only worship of god , by institution in the new testament , which is probable to be his meaning by what he adds [ not perplexing our selves , nor the consciences of any , with what was ( or may be supposed to be ) permitted unto the saints before the time of reformation , whilst the worldly sanctuary was yet standing , the carnal ordinances pertaining thereunto , in being at least by the providence of god not sully dissolved as afterward , both it and they were , being buried in the ashes and ruines of that temple , to which they were inseparably annext . ] but if he make hearing of the present ministers , such an instituted worship of god or christ he seems to me very inconsiderate , hearing of preachers being a moral and perpetual worship common to all times and persons , not a meer positive or ceremonial , as being baptized or receiving the lords supper are , and therefore by reason thereof it is not a reasonable postulatum , which he demands to be granted him , that in the present enquiry the whole thereof be divolved upon the scriptures of the new testament . yea were it granted him , yet it would disadvantage those separatists , with whom he concurs in judgment about nonconformity and separation from the church of england and the ministers thereof , who use many places of the old testament , not only about the sabbath and it's observation , but also about baptism and the lords supper . churches , ministry , and ceremonies in their enquiries , and himself also in the present enquiry , who useth about election of ministers by the people and other things in this dispute out of the old testament , and even the levitical ordinances sundry places , and therefore i conceive not any reasonableness in his postulatum of divolving the whole upon the scriptures of the new testament . sect. . the judgment of the antients , not useless in this controversie . that which he also speaks [ not perplexing our selves , nor the consciences of any with the judgments of men in generations past ; ( wherein they cannot acquiesce ) though to take of the prejudices of some against truth , upon the account of its seeming novelty , we may here and there manifest their harmony with us , in the main principles of the ensuing structures ] may seem to be a reasonable postulatum , or demand in respect of those who are not able to examine what is said by fathers , councils , schoolmen , protestant and popish writers , forraign and domestick , and i should have liked it well if he had wholly omitted any such citations in this book , which hath been dispersed so farr as i can learn , chiefly , if not only among such . nevertheless if we would intimate as if in this and other controversies of the separatists and others , there were not use of studying and alledging those writers , i think his postulatum or demand unreasonable . for as dallaeus in his learned book against popish worship hath done much service to the truth , in shewing out of the fathers , that the popish worship of saints , angels , the host or bread in the eucharist crosses , images and reliques , according to the tradition of the latins , was unknown to the christians of the three first centuries : so it may be of good use to satisfie mens consciences , that no such separation as now is from the present ministers of england was allowed of by the first fathers and writers , or any approved council , it being a thing of much moment in the arguments about the lords day ; and other festivals , the sacraments , church and ministry ; to understand what was the judgment and practice of the primitive christians : with whom religion was more pure than in after times , though corruptions too soon crept in among them . sect. . no approved practice of the saints , afore the law , countenanceth separation from the present preachers in england . yet , saith this author , inasmuch as some beams of light may be communicated unto the present enquiry , by a retrospection into the state of things in the time of the old law , it shall not be grievous to us ( nor will it be altogether unprofitable to the reader ) briefly to remark , so far as may concern the matter in hand , the state and management of affairs under that oeconomy and dispensation : not to mention the administration of holy things in the time of the antediluvian fathers ; nor the general apostacy from the pure wayes of god , in the dayes of seth ; ( when according to their duty , the faithful remnant ( the sons of god ) separated from the wicked ( or the daughters of men ) and solemnly joyned themselves together to worship god according to his holy appointments , gen. . . ) let us take a brief view of things , with relation unto the people of god , after the giving of moses law , when a standard was set up for them to repair unto , and they became ( being gathered into one ) as a city on an hall , conspicuous unto all . answ. how some beams of light may be communicated unto the present enquiry , by a retrospection into the state of things in the time of the old law , will not be easie to discern , if the whole thereof be divolved on the scriptures of the new testament . yet it will not be grievous to me to examine what i find produced for his purpose . i grant that dr. owen hath in his book in latine , of the nature , rise , progress , and study of true theologie , shewed divers corruptions in the ages before and after the flood of noah in theologie ; and the pure worship of god , unto moses his time ; and that the restitution of true theologie was sometimes by a separation from the wicked , when there was a general apostacy from the true wayes of god , unto a prophaning of the name of god , ( as some conceive gen. . . is meant ) either by blaspheming , or by setting up of idol-worship ; as it was before abrahams separation , josh. . . but neither by him , nor i think , by any other is it shewed , that a separation was approved from preachers , that teach no worse doctrine than is held forth by the articles , homilies , and other avowed books of the church of england ; or from a society or church that was no more polluted by idolatry or other corruptions in worship , than are chargeable on the publick enjoyned worship of the church of england . if gen. . . be meant of a reformation , by setting up separate congregations ( as dr owen conceives in that book , l . c. . ) it was , that therein they might call on the name of the lord ; which shews it was from them that did not call upon the name of the lord , not from them that did as in the worship of the church of england is done . and if noah did reform by separation , it was from wicked men , who had filled the earth with violence , gen. . . which doth indeed make a necessary separation , ( though it appear not but that noah continued to preach to them , and live among them , pet. . . pet. . . ) but is not the cause of the separation avowed by this author from the ministers and church of england . and though it be true , that by the law at mount sinai , and other acts of gods providence , israel became ( being gathered into one ) as a city on a hill , conspicuous unto all , yet how then a standard was set up for the people to repair unto , needs some explication , sith such as job , and such like holy persons ( if he or any other lived at that time ) seem not to have repaired to them , nor were bound to repair to them , unless they would be made proselytes , which the avoiding idolatry , of the gentiles might require of them ; not such corruptions onely as are in the church of england . but let us see what beams of light may be communicated unto the present enquiry , by retrospection into the state of things in the time of the old law. sect. . jewish laws admitted some dispensation and addition . first then , saith he , that the lord gave unto the people of the jews ( whom he had chosen out of all the nations of the world , to be a people near to him , his peculiar treasure above them all ) statutes and ordinances to walk by , both with relation to civils and ecclesiasticks , which they were indispensably bound to conform to , without adding to , or detracting therefrom : that the management of all their affairs was singly to be bottomed upon , and conform to these statutes and judgments is very frequently asserted in scripture , exod. . . lev. . . & . . & . . & . . & . ▪ . deut. . , , . & . . & . . & . , . & . . & . . & . . chron. . . & . . psal. . . ezek. . . & . . dan ▪ . . answ. it is granted that the lord gave unto the people of the jews statutes and ordinances to walk by , both with relation to civils and ecclesiasticks , or ( as usually they speak ) ceremonials ; and that they were bound to conform to them , and so much the texts alledged do prove . but that they were bound indispensably to conform to these statutes , without adding to , or detracting therefrom ; and that the management of all their affairs was singly to be bottomed upon , and conform to these statutes and judgments , is not asserted in those scriptures , there being not one of them , that saith that they were bound indispensably to conform to them . our lord hath determined to the contrary in justifying his disciples plucking the ears of corn on the sabbath ; davids eating the shew bread and entring into the house of god , and confirming his determination by the words of the prophet hosea , . . in his dissertation against the pharisees , mat. . , . in which there was a dispensation with , and detraction from the laws of the sabbath , and the shew-bread about ecclesiasticks , for a time in some case . and for addition to laws ecclesiastical the assemblies keeping other seven dayes besides those prescribed in the law of the passover , chro. . . and to civils that ordinance of david , sam. . . shew , that in both some additions might be by the prince , captain or private persons to both sorts of lawes with divine approbation . and that the management of all the affairs of the people of israel , both civil and ecclesiastical , was not singly to be bottom'd upon and conform to those statutes and judgments , but that in both sorts of affairs humane prudence , and the rulers authority might order many things , may be cleared from sundry instances of david , jehoshaphat , hezekiah , and others ; which there will be occasion more fully to discusse in examining the allegations brought by this author to prove the major of his first argument ch. . of this treatise . sect. . the election or ordination of levites , is no rule for election or ordination of ministers now . secondly , saith he , that persons were appointed by the lord to be chosen by the congregation for the publick administration of ordinances and worship , cannot be denied : thus were the levites , exod. . , , . and . . numb . . . called therefore the wave-offering of the children of israel , numb . . , , . because given up by them to the lord as their offering , by solemn ordination , and imposition of hands . answer , it is true , that the levites were wholly given unto god from among the children of israel , to do the service of the congregation ; but it is not true , that they were appointed by the lord to be chosen by the congregation . god saith , numb . . . in stead of the first-born of all the children of israel have i taken them to mee . and upon what occasion god took the levites in stead of the first born , is to be seen in exod. . , . deut. . . saith ainsworth annot . on numb . . . so that here appears no choice of the congregation , so as that it was left to them to take or to leave those . it is true also , that numb . . . it is said , that moses shall bring the levites before the tabernacle of the congregation , it was therefore his business to present them , and that he should gather the whole assembly of the children of israel together , and that he should bring the levites before the lord , and the children of israel , that is , some of the chief of them , ( as the first born ) in the name of the rest shall lay or impose hands on the levites , saith ainsworth annot . on numb . . . and then it follows , v. . aaron shall offer or wave the levites before the lord , for an offering or wave-offering of the children of israel , that they may execute the service of the lord. and then aaron was to make an atonement for the levites , and moses should set the levites before aaron and before his sons , and offer them for an offering unto the lord , and that he should separate the levites from among the children of israel : and the levites should then be gods. v. , . the reason of the laying on of the hands of the children of israel upon the levites , was to signifie their obedient yielding them to god in their stead , to do the service of the children of israel , in the tabernacle of the congregation , and to make an atonement for the children of israel : that there might be no plague among the children of israel , when the children of israel came nigh unto the sanctuary , v. . but these were not the priests , they were distinct from the levites , to wit aaron and his sons , who were called of god , heb. . . without the prophets laying on of hands . now it was the priests office to do that work , in which was the worship of god to wit the offering sacrifice , sprinkling the blood , and such other duties , the levites were imployed to do other services , as the bearing of the utesils and such like , in respect of which they were to attend on the priests , deut. . . & therefore it is said by god , v. . i have given the levites as a gift to aaron and his sons . so that the choice was gods , the presenting moses his act , the yielding them by imposition of hands signifying their offering them to god , in stead of themselves , was the act of the first-born , the wave offering , and cleansing them , aarons act , which may more truly be called their solemn ordination than the imposition of hands by the first-born . but were it true , that in this act of imposing their hands there was election and ordination , this wa● not a successive election or ordination , as is when one dies and another is chosen and ordained in his room , as oft as there is such vacancy , when one minister dies and another comes in his stead . for this election or ordination ( if it may be so called ) was but once , and of the whole company together , and so is no pattern for election or ordination of elders successively by a particular congregation , or the major part of them . sect. . the texts enjoyning the observation of things appointed , prove not that some things undetermined might not in gods worship be ordered by men . thirdly , saith he , that persons thus invested into the office of priesthood were not left to the liberty of their own wits , nor have they any dependance upon the will or authority of the sons of men , ( one or other of them ) either in respect of the matter or manner of their worship , the whole whereof was purely of divine institution and divine appointment , exod. . , . numb . . . heb. . . chron. , . exod. . . levit. . . exod. . , , , , , , , and . , , , . levit. . , , , , . numb . . . exod. . , . and . , . isaiah . . answer , the levites were not invested into the office of the priesthood by solemn ordination & imposition of hands of the children of israel , but aaron and his sons , and therefore as it was an usurpation in uzziah to burn incense to the lord , sith it appertained to the priests , the sons of aaron that were consecrated to burn incense , chron. . . so it was the sin of korah that , not content with that service he was to do , he would usurp the office of the priests , to come nigh the altar and to burn incense , or as it is numb . . . to seek the priesthood , which was in degree above the levites , who were to minister unto the priests , but not to come nigh the altar , as ainsworth proves in his annot. on numb . . . out of numb . . , . chron. . , . chron. . . it is granted that neither the levites nor the priests in their office or service were left to their own wills , nor had they any dependance upon the will or authority of the sons of men ( one or other of them ) either in respect of the matter or manner of their worship , which was of divine institution , and divine appointment . every circumstance of time , place , order , habit , and what ever else was particularly determined , was to be strictly observed under pain of death , if presumptuously done otherwise ; as in the case of nadab and abihu , hophai and phinehas , or culpable negligence as in the case of uzzah , and if it were by ignorance , yet an offering was to be made for an atonement , and thus much it is granted the texts alledged do prove . but neither these texts nor any other do prove that no circumstances about place , time , order undetermined by god were left to the liberty of the people , or prince , or sanhedrin , or priests in and about the worship of god among the jewes , who yet had their service more fully particularized in all things pertaining to it than we have . the priests were invested into the office of priesthood by moses , according to the rites distinctly set down , exod. . , , , , . levit. . throughout . the text , isai. . . alledged in the first chapter out of mark . . will there fitly be considered , that we may discusse , whether the whole of their worship was purely of divine institution and appointment in respect of the matter , and manner of it . sect. . the defection of the jews to idolatrous inventions of men , is of a more hainous degree than use of humane ceremonies with us . fourthly , saith he , that this church gathered by the lord , and wonderfully separated from the rest of the world ( though they had him nearer to them than any people had his law made known amongst them ) did notwithstanding quickly depart from his pure institutions , mingling therewith the inventions of men , and customes of the nations ( after which they went a whoring ) is frequently remarked in the scripture : of this the lord sorely complains , deut. . . jer. . . and . . and . . hos. . . and . . and . . chron. . . isa. . . jer . . and . , . and . . and . . deut. . . kings . . and . . and . . kings . . ezra . . for this he severely threatens and punisheth them , deut. . . judg. . . sam. . . chron. . . and . . and . . jer. . . and . . the very truth is , the contests of god with that people from first to last , are to be bottom'd upon this foot of account . answer , it is true , that church of israel was gathered by the lord , and wonderfully separated from the rest of the world by great signs , miracles , providences , and judgments ; which he shewed against their enemies and towards them , especially by the hand of moses , and that he did not , till christ came , so gather , and wonderfully separate any church from the rest of the world , as he did them . but after the ascension of christ by the preaching of the gospel , and other wayes he hath gathered out of all nations his church , and wonderfully separated it from the rest of the world . it is true also , that the israelites quickly departed from gods pure institutions mingling therewith the inventions of men , and customs of the nations . but those inventions of men and customs of the nations , which the texts alledged mention , were such as were expressely forbidden , drew them to serve other other gods and to forsake the lord , not such as are usually by seperatives called inventions of men , to wit humane ceremonies , confessed out of the case of worship in themselves to be things indifferent , such as out of pretended prudence at least , or publique authority are imposed for discipline , order , or decency without giving any divine worship to a creature . let all the texts alledged be viewed , and there is none of them , that mentions the mingling such inventions of men , no not those , which our saviour reprehends in the pharisees , mark . , , . ( which are farr worse ) as the departing from gods pure institutions , nor doth god contest with the people of the jewes , in those places alledged for other inventions of men and customes of the nations , than such as were idolatrous , and therefore the threatnings and punishments in those places are grossely abused , when they are applied to the imposing or use of such ceremonies or discipline as are ( whether rightly or wrongly ) retained in the church of england . sect. . such testimony as the prophets gave against the jewish defection , is not now to be given against the conformists . fifthly , saith he , that notwithstanding their dreadful apostacy from god , they were usually confident , that they were the only people , had not forsaken the lord , nor done any evil , and could not bear the prophecies , and rebukes of the prophets and servants of the lord , against their abominations : whom they persecuted and put to death ( as at last they did the prince of life and glory ) for no other cause but for telling them the truth , and bearing testimony against their innovations , and apostacy from god ( the usual practice of persons degenerated from the way and spirit of the lord ) mal. . . jer. . . luke . . john . . mat. . . act. . . answer , all this is granted , and if this author can prove any such innovations and apostacy from god ( as the prophets , christ and his apostles , and other servants of god , rebuked in the jewes ) in the people or teachers , who adhere to the doctrin , worship , or discipline of the church of england , this author with others of his minde , do well to bear their testimony against them as the prophets did , and they that persecuted them for so doing , may expect the like judgments of god to fall on them , as fell on the jewes . but if it be otherwise , and the things inveighed against , be not such as they make them , and their bearing testimony be such as tends to infringe the publique peace , but not to rectify any thing , they are guilty of calumny , and their practice not to be judged to proceed from holy zeale , but evil passion . sect. . the conformist not chargeable , as the false prophets of the jewes . sixthly , saith he , that they had all along their corruption in worship , and degeneracy from the worship of god , false prophets ( who ran before they were sent , prophesying smooth things to them in the name of the lord , seeing lying vanities for them , according to the desires of the hearts of them , and their rulers , who were therefore in great esteem amongst them . isa. . . and . . jer. . . and . , . and . . hos. , jer. . , . and . . and . . and . , . ezek. . . and . , . mic. . , , . zeph. . . pet. . . answer , all this is granted , and if any of the preachers in england prophesie lies in gods name , or bring in damnable heresies , denying the lord that bought them , or are such as those , whom the texts alledged describe , let them be branded as false prophets . but if they teach the fundamentals of christian religion truly , and in respect of the substance of worship , use no other than god hath appointed , though they may in some points remote from the foundation erre , and use some things in and about the worship of god , which should not be , yet do not overthrow the worship of god in substantials , then are they false accusers , who accuse them as if they were such , as those texts of scripture alledged do describe . s●ct . . invectives against teachers and worship now , may be from another spirit than that of the prophets . seventhly , saith he , that in the height of their apostacy , god left not himself without a witness , having one or other , extraordinarily raised up and spirited by him , to testify for his name and glory , against all their abominations , and self-invented worship , reserving also a remnant unto himself , that were not carried away with the spirit of whoredoms and delusions , kings . , . kings . . romans . , . jer. . . and . . and . . answer , that self invented worship was bowing the knee to baal , kings . . rom. . , . serving idols , kings . . burning incense to vanity , jer. . . going after other gods to serve them and worship them , jer. . . and . . if there be found any such self-invented worship in the church of england , it will do well to testifie against it . but if there be not such abominations and self-invented worship , these texts will not justify persons , who have no other than ordinary calling , to testify against them , much less to censure them as whoredoms and delusions , and they that practice them as carried away with the spirit of whoredoms and delusions . and though persons may imagine they imitate elijah , are extraordinarily raised up , and spirited by god , and that they testify for gods name and glory , when they call the common-prayer book an idol , the ministers that conform baals priests , the communion the mass , with such like billingsgate rhetorick , yet it is not unlikely , but that it may be truly verified of such , which our lord christ said to james and john , when they would have fire commanded to come down from heaven and consume the samaritans , even as elias did , ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of : and that it may be bitter and not holy zeal which moves them , and their language judged by god not just reproof , but unjust reviling . sect. . the forsaking of false prophets and worship among the jewes , is no justification of separation , from the present teachers and worship . eighthly , saith he , that it was the sin of that people to hearken unto the teachings of such as were not sent by the lord ( though they pretended never so much to be sent by him ) and the unquestionable duty of the lords preserving remnant , to separate from them , as also from all the false devised worship of that day , though commended by their kings and rulers , kings . , . hos. . . the former is evident , such prophets were to be cut off from the middest of them , deut. . . and they are expressely forbidden to hear them , deut. . . jer. . , . so is the latter , their devised worship being a breach upon the soveraign authority of god , must needs be a grievous sin , as the names of adultery , whoredom , idolatry , fornication , by which the spirit of the lord doth frequently set it forth , abundantly demonstrates ; psal. . . isai. . . . jer. . . ezek. . . hos. . . and . . lev. . . jer. . . ezek. , . . . hos. . . rev. . . and . . , . which without controversie , the people of god were to separate from , and have no communion with any in , upon what pretence soever : which is solemnly charged upon them as their duty in the scripture , hos. . . amos . . prov. . . and . . cant. . . answer . none are said in those texts or any other i meet with , not to be sent by the lord , who delivered the truth of god , but they only in those places are denied to be sent by god , who delivered falsehoods , and such falsehoods as were inciting to idolatry , or contradictions to the messages of the true prophets , and such were not to be heard , though they should be comm●nded by kings and rulers , who ought to cut them off , when they spake in gods name a word , which he had not commanded them to speak , or did speak in the name of other gods , deut. . . and if they sought to turn them from the lord to serve other gods , they were not only not to hearken to them , but also , if they were never so near to them , they should not spare them , but kill them , deut. . . which i presume he will not say of the present ministers of england , and therefore me thinks he should have left out these allegations , if he had well bethought himself how unfit they were to his present designe . that devised worship , which is termed adultery , whoredom , idolatry , fornication , is levit. . . committing whoredom with molech , psal. . . being farre from god , going a whoring from him , isaia . . inflaming themselves with idols under every green tree , slaying the children in the valleys under the clefts of the rocks , jerem. . . treachery , jer. . . abominations on the hill in the fields , ezek. . . making to her self images of men to commit whoredom with them , v. . sacrificing their sons and daughters to them to be devoured , ezek. . . committing adultery with idols , hos. . . departing from the lord , revel . . . and . . such fornication as babylon made all nations , even kings of the earth to commit , and from such it is without controversie the people of god were to separate , and have no communion with any in , upon any pretence whatsoever , nor in any other sin by joyning in the practice , and if the present worship of the ministers of england , be any such fornication , or the hearing or joyning with them , must be a partaking with them in any sin , so farre at least , they are to be separated from . but neither the texts alledged , nor any other do require separation from the worship of god , or the ministers that are in some things corrupt , even in their ministration ; when hophai and phinehas , did corrupt the worship of god , yet samuel did lawfully minister before the lord , and hannah did well in presenting him thereto , and her self at the solemn feasts , and even-while there was burning incense , and sacrificing in the high places , those of judah were not to separate from the service at jerusalem , which was to god , and though the high priests were unduly set up , and sundry corruptions , and superstitions in the pharisees , and the services of the jews in our lord christs time on earth ; yet did our lord christ joyn in the publick service of the temple , and perswaded the cleansed leper to offer to them the gift that moses commanded . wherefore i inferr , that though there should be some degree of corruption in worship , and that this should be a breach upon the soveraign authority of god , as every sin is , and a grievous sin it is ; yet this might not be a sufficient cause of separation from the worship , church , or ministers , of it , and that the allegation of the texts produced , will not be sufficient for the design of this author , in urging separation from the ministers and church of england . but let us further attend his motions . he adds : sect. . the arguing by analogy in positive rites not rational . what may rationally be inferred from these positions , so evidently comprized in the scripture , and by way of analogy at least may be argued from them , is evident to any ordinary understanding ; for our parts being resolved ( as was said ) to trie out the matter in controversie , from such rules and soveraign institutions , as our dear lord hath left his new testament churches to walk by , we shall not stand to make that improvement of them as otherwise we might : a few queries upon the whole that hath been offered , shall put a close to this preface . answ. whether the positions before set down , be evidently comprised in the scripture , may be perceived by the examination of them ; what may be rationally inferred from them for his purpose of condemning the hearing the present ministers of england , is not evident to my understanding , which i do not conceive to be any other than ordinary . as for arguing by way of analogy from the institutions of the old testament to those of the new testament from supposed parity of reason , how little rationality , or force there is therein , i presume he may perceive , if he read the second part of the review of my dispute about paedobaptism , sect. . . wherein how infirm the way of arguing from such analogy is , is so far evinced , that i judge , that if the improvement he thinks he might make of his positions for his purpose , be by that way of proof , it will be found insufficient by an ordinary understanding , whether he hath kept to his resolution of tiying the matter in controversie , by the rules and institutions of the new testament , will appear by the examining of the ensuing discourse . i judge that to be the way whereby to settle mens consciences about mere positive duties , or sins under the gospel , and therefore am resolved to pursue his dispute pede pes , yet clearing the way by considering his queries in a velitary skirmish before i set upon his triarii or main battle . sect. . the first querie about a national instituted church answered . his first querie is , whether since the apotomy or unchurching the nation of the jews , the lord hath ever since so espoused a nation or people to himself , as that upon the account thereof , the whole body of that people or nation may be accounted his church ? whether there be any national church under the oeconomie of the gospel ? if so , let it be shewed when , and where it was instituted by the lord : what is produced by some to this purpose , is ( but upon a slight view thereof ) of no moment , it is isa. . . kings shall be your nursing fathers , &c. which prophesie waits the time of its accomplishment : hitherto , both before and since the rise of antichrist ( being made drunk by the whores intoxicating cup ) they have been , for the most part , cruel butchers of the saints : and were we under its accomplishment , a national church would be far enough from being its result . of a nations being born at once , we shall not sure hear pleaded in this matter , it being a prophesie expresly relating to the jews , and their miraculous conversion : if there be no such thing as a national church of the institution of christ , as most certain it is there is not ( the assertion whereof is wholly destructive of gospel administrations ) then , answ. as king james in his remonstrance against cardinal perons oration , saith , that the appellation and name of the church serveth in this corrupt age , as a cloak to cover a thousand new inventions ; meaning this of the popish party : so may we say also of others , that by reason of the ambiguous use of the appellation and name of the church , and the dictates of men about it , the minds of many are perplexed and perverted . wherefore in answering this first querie ( which the separatists do so much harp upon ) it is necessary that there be a distinct understanding of the notion of the church , and its institution . the greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which by use is now almost appropriated to the christian church , hath been variously used , both in the greek versions of the old testament , in the apocryphal writings , and in the new testament . it seems to me of little concernment in the present question to collect them all , the queries to be answered be●ng of the new testament use . now in the new testament , excepting what i find act. . , , . where it is applied to assemblies of unbelievers , whether tumultuary or orderly , and act. . . where it is applied to the congregation of israel in the wilderness , in all places in the acts of the apostles , the epistles of the apostles , and revelation of st. john , it is meant ( so far as i discern ) of the christians , or people of god , or their meeting or assembly ▪ as it notes the christian believers , or people of god , so it is taken sometimes for the universal church , whether invisible or visible , as cor. . . heb. . . ephes. . . sometimes for the visible church indefinitely , but not universally , as cor. . . sometimes for the church topical , and then it is taken for the church of a city , or town , or house ; and so we read of the church at jerusalem , act . . of corinth , ephesus , &c. in philemons house , philem. . or of a country or nation , and then it is put in the plural number , as the churches of asia , galatia , judaea . in the evangelists history of the doings , sufferings , and sayings of our lord christ , i find the word [ church ] used but in two places , mat. . . and . . of the extent and meaning of both which texts there is so much controversie , not only between the protestants and papists , but also among the protestants themselves of different persuasions about church government , that it would require a treatise by it self to make a thorough discussion of those two texts in order to the clearing of the controversies that are started about them . that mat. . . is undoubtedly meant of the christian church , but whether oecumenical , visible or invisible , or indefinite , or topical , is doubted . it is without any proof appropriated to the church of rome , or any particular church as ordered under this or that peculiar form of government ; but is to be taken for the number of believers in christ , whether of jews or gentiles , more or fewer , abstractively from any political considerations , and such external adjuncts and denominations , as whereby usually churches are in common speeches diversified . in the other place , mat. . . in as much as it is not said [ tell my church ] but [ tell the church ] and the term [ thy brother ] may as well be meant of a brother , as by birth , or proselytism adjoyned to the jews , as st. paul calls the jews by birth his brethren , kinsmen according to the flesh , rom. . . ( in which sense it may seem to be taken in that place , mat. . , . which is a precept like to this , for the reconciling of particular differences , and righting of wrongs , and the expression [ let him be to thee as a heathen ] seems to intimate ) as of a brother in christian profession ; it may not without reason be doubted whether by [ the church ] there , be meant the christian church , or an assembly of the jews in their synedrium , whether greater or lesser , and if it be extended as a direction to christian brethren ; whether it be meant of their assembly under an ecclesiastical consideration or political , that is the christian magistrate . institution of a church by preception or command i find not : neither christ nor his apostles ( that i know ) have given us any rule or law of bounding , modelling , or numbring churches . there is a precept heb. . . that christians should not forsake the assembling of themselves together , as the manner of some was . but none about the defining how many should go to a church , or be accounted to belong to one church ; no determination by any precept concerning members belonging to a church , whether they should be fixed to one meeting , or ambulatory , and moveable ; sometimes belonging to one assembly , sometimes to another of the same profession . nor do we find any institution of churches , whether they ought to be domestick , congregational , parochial , classi●al , diocesan , provincial , patriarchical , or oecumenical . the ordering of such distinctions christ and his apostles ( so far as i deprehend ) have left to divine providence , and humane prudence , allowing more or fewer to a church , as the imes will permit , the increase or diminution of believers should be , as pastors may be had , and their partitions and meetings be convenient for their edification and government . it is true , the romanists would infer from christs promise to peter , mat. . . upon this rock will i build my church , that st. peter , and after h●m the bishop of rome was made universal bishop . but that by [ christs church ] is meant the universal church , and by [ christs building ] it is meant constituting an universal bishop , is an assertion without proof . in some of the ancients the bishops of rome have been stiled oecumenical ; but so also have other patriarchs . we believe one catholick and apostolick church ; but so denominated from their common confession or the same faith ; not from union to , and subjection under one visible church head . mr. paul bayne ( as i remember ) long since disputed against diocesan churches for parochial : and in the assembly at westminster the dissenters against this proposition , that many particular congregations may be under one presbyterial government , from such distinction of churches as the new testament yields . but the arguments seem not to me to be cogent , they declaring only what was done de facto , not what was necessary to be done de jure . that text mat. . . is much urged by sundry sorts of pleaders , for their several wayes of church-government . but it is uncertain whether by [ brother ] and [ church ] be meant christian believers , and the christian church ; and if christian believers and church be meant , whether the church be meant of the christian civil judicatory , or ecclesiastical consistory , or congregational assembly of believers of all ranks : or some select arbitrators , that of which the church is to have cognizance , being there no other than the sin of one brother against another , which v. , . luk. ▪ , . shew to be meant only of private trespasses or injuries done by one to another , who might remit or forgive them ; nor is any other act ascribed to the church , than an admonition to the injurious brother , to do right to him whom he hath wronged ; whereupon it is then allowed , or appointed upon non-satisfaction to him , or disobedience to the church , without any other juridical sentence mentioned , that he that is thus disobedient should be to him that complained , as a heathen or publican , with whom the jews would not have familiarity . nothing is said of being such to the church , or by vertue of its sentence juridical , or being excluded à sacris , which we are sure the publicans were not , luk. . . these things seem to me to evince , that neither is here that instituted church , which the assertors of congregational churches and church-government urge , as the only churches and church-government of the new testament , and inculcate as the pattern in the mount , and any other way to be as the setting of mans posts by gods posts , and separate from a national church as a humane invention . nor is here that church-government instituted ( which they make the only government appointed by christ ) that the congregation , or the major part are to cast out , exclude from communion in holy things in every church , though but of seven or eight , every member that sins and will not obey the monition of the rest of the congregation . these things being premised , i answer to the questions in the first querie fore-mentioned . . that it is granted , that since the unchurching of the nation of the jews , the lord hath not yet ( that we know of ) so espoused a nation , or people to himself , as that upon the account thereof , the whole body of that people or nation may be accounted his . we say that christ hath redeemed us to god by his bloud , out of every kindred , and tongue , and people , and nation , and hath made us unto our god , kings , and priests , revel . . , . we own no church visible now , but of believers , by their own personal profession . we approve the . article of the church of england , that the visible church of christ , is a congregation of faithful men , in the which the pure word of god is preached , and the sacraments be duly administred according to christs ordinance , in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same . the addition in the confession of faith of the assembly , ch. . art. . that the visible church universal under the gospel , consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion , and of their children , is not found in the writings of the new testament , and those texts that are alledged for it , ezek. . , . rom. . . gen. . . gen. . . if they were pertinent , would as well prove a whole nation to be gods visible church , yea , all mankind descended from eve , as the visible church to consist of the children of them that profess the true religion . and the same may be said of them that assert an ordinance of infants visible church-membership unrepealed , that alledge mat. . . as proving christs appointing nations as such to be baptized , that alledge the jewish proselytism as a pattern to us . how far this quaerist agrees with these , may be discerned by other passages . if he concur with those of the congregational way about church-members , and their proof from the covenant to abraham , gen. . . as made to his natural seed , and so to all believers natural seed , i see not how he can avoid the asserting of a national church like the jewish ; which i grant is not agreeable to the gospel , according to which , the visible church of christ is a congregation of faithful men , as the definition of the church of england , art. . expresseth it , and hath been fully proved by me in the third part of my review , sect. . &c. . in answer to the question , whether there be any national church under the oeconomy of the gospel ? i say , that though there be no national church , so as that the whole nation , and every member of the nation be to be accounted of the visible church of christ , by vertue of their generation , or proselytism , and such covenant as was made to abraham concerning his natural seed , or to israel at mount sinai , or elsewhere ; yet the whole number of believers of a nation , may by reason of their common profession , be called a national church , as well as the whole body of men throughout the world , professing the faith of the gospel , and obedience to god by christ according unto it , not destroying their own profession by any errours everting the foundation , or unholiness of conversation , are and may be called the visible catholick church of christ , as the congregational men speak in their declarat . ch . . wherefore it is no more against the gospel to term the believers of england or scotland , the church of england or scotland , than it is to term the believers throughout the world , the catholick church ; nor is it more unfit for us to term our selves members of the church of england in this respect , than to term our selves members of the catholick church ; nor is there need to shew any institution of the lord more for the one than for the other . nor is there need to alledge isa. . . or isa. . . for such an institution . nevertheless , that the prophesie , isa . . kings shall be your nu●sing fathers , &c. waits the time of its accomplishment , is said with more confidence than evidence . many learned interpreters think otherwise , among whom mr. gataker ( in my judgment inferiour to none in his exposition of holy scripture ) hath these words annot. on isa. . . and kings shall be thy nursing fathers , and queens thy nursing mothers ] fulfilled in those persian potentates , cyrus , artaxerxes , darius , aha●uerus , ; with the queens also of some of them , that patronised and protected gods people , and promoted gods work with them , ezra . , . and . . and . , . neh. . , . esth. . , . and much more in other emperours and kings , together with their queens ; as constantine , theodosius , and the like , who both embraced the christian faith themselves , and maintained the profession of it . of some whereof , see rev. . , , . and mr. mede on rev. . . hath these words ; for truly out of the same ten horns , or kings , they shall be , who at length shall hate the whore whom they have so long born , ( which partly we perceive to be fulfilled ) shall make her desolate , and naked , shall eat her flesh , and burn her with fire . nor is it to be denied without ingratitude to god and men , that kings and queens since the rise of antichrist ( though many of them made drunk by the whores intoxicating cup , have been cruel butcherers of the saints ) both before the reformation , and since , even in our dayes have been nursing fathers , and nursing mothers to the church of christ , and that a national church , in the sense fore-mentioned , hath been the result of its accomplishment ; and we hope in more ample manner , will be the result of its fuller accomplishment . as for the text , isa. . . that it is a prophesie expresly relating to the jews , and their miraculous conversion , is not certain . mr. gataker in his annot. on isa. . . hath these words , the most interpreters , both jew and christian , understand these words , of the strange , sudden , and unexpected delivery of the remainders of gods people out of the babylonian bondage by cyrus . howbeit , divers interpreters understand them of the restitution and restauration of the church under the ministry of the gospel , when so many thousands were so soon , and so suddenly converted , without any great labour , or pains-taking about them , of those by whom they were converted , act. . . & . . and both these expositions conceived , as subordinate the one to the other , may very well be admitted . and therefore if the author hear it not pleaded in this matter , yet he may find another exposition than that which he imagines , that it expresly relates to a future miraculous conversion of the jews . however if it did , sith it is said rom. . , . when the fullness of the gentiles is come in , all israel shall be saved ; he might find something for a national church in that prophesie , isa. . . as for those words in his parenthesis , [ that the assertion of a national church of the institution of christ , is wholly destructive of gospel administrations , ] they are said with no more truth than proof , though we should say , a national church , in respect of its government , or officers , is of the institution of christ. for suppose it were asserted , that christ had instituted patriarchs or arch-bishops , and bishops , and the government of the church of england or scotland under them , yet this might be without total destruction of gospel administrations . the preaching of the gospel , administration of baptism and the lords supper with other administrations of christian worship and discipline , have been , and may be continued even where archbishops and bishops have been over a national church as instituted by christ. but let us attend his motions : thus he goes on . if there be no such thing as a national church of the institution of christ , as most certain it is there is not ; then . whether national ministers are the ministers of christ , or whether there can be a true ministry in a false church , as a national church must be , if not of divine institution , upon what pretence soever it be so denominated ? sect. . national ministers may be ministers of christ , and national churches true churches . to this querie i answer , that if by [ national ministers ] be meant ministers for the nation , or such as have inspection over the nation , whether for the maintenance or propagating of true doctrine , or worship , or holiness of life , they may be ministers of christ , though no such thing as a national church were of the institution of christ. as for instance , i conceive dr. james usher ( when he was alive ) was a minister of christ , when he was primate of ireland . the assertion i prove thus , if the apostles were ministers of christ , and national ministers , though a national church were not instituted of christ , than national ministers may be ministers of christ , though a national church be not instituted of christ : but the apostles were such , as for instance , peter had the apostleship of the circumcision , paul of the gentiles , gal. . , . rom. . . tim. . . therefore national ministers may be ministers of christ. . titus was a national minister of the cretians , for this cause , saith st. paul , tit. . . left i thee in crete , that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting , and ordain elders in every city , as i had appointed thee , and yet a minister of christ , st. pauls partner and fellow-helper concerning the corinthians , cor. . . ergo : . they that may be ministers of christ , though they be ministers for the body of christ , and all the members thereof , may be ministers of christ , though national ; because the denial of a national ministry is upon this supposition ; that a minister of christ is only for one particular congregation , but the pastors and teachers , as well as apostles , evangelists , prophets , are given for the edifying of the body of christ , till we all come in the unity of the faith , unto a perfect man , eph. . , , . therefore , for all , or any ; and consequently , for a nation , and not only for a particular congregation . . if any of the saints , as well as one particular congregation , have an interest in all the ministers of christ , so as that they are truly theirs , then ministers of christ may be national ; yea , ought to be ; yea , and oecumenical , if they could be serviceable to them in the things of christ. but cor. . , . paul and cephas , and apollos , were all the corinthians , and all others who were christs ; therefore the same may be ministers of christ , and national ministers . i know not whether this might be an argument ad hominem , but this i take to be justifiable , that a man may be a commissioner for approbation of publick preachers throughout a nation , and so a national minister , or an itinerant preacher to the nation , and yet be a minister of christ. . a national church , denominated so , either from the agreement of all the believers in that nation , in the same profession , or from their subjection to some common rulers ecclesiastical or civil , or convening by deputies in some national synod , though not of divine institution , may be a true , and not a false church : which i prove thus . they may be a true church , who have all things essential to a church , and nothing destructive of its being such . but believers of a nation , or a national church , so denominated any of those wayes , may have all things essential to a church , and nothing destructive of its being such ; ergo. the major is taken from the proper notion of the term [ true church ] or its definition . for the definition of a church of christ , or a true church , is and can be no other than a company or number of persons believing in christ , or professing the faith of the gospel , and obedience to god by christ according unto it , not destroying their own profession by any errours concerning the foundation , or unholiness of conversation , even according to the expression of the congregational men in their declaration , octob. . . ch . . the minor is also manifest by reason and experience . a national church , so denominated , may have the truth of doctrine of faith , the truth of worship , the truth of holy conversation ; besides which , there is nothing essential to a true church . for the defect of outward order , were the order pretended indeed of christs institution , yet could not nullifie the church , or destroy the truth of it , but only the regularity . the corinthians were a true church cor. . . even then when there were disorders in their meeting , cor. . . in their discipline , cor. . , . in their communion , cor. . . in their faith , cor. . . in their conversation , cor. . . and . ● . as for the outward form of their combination by a church covenant , or their number , or their habitation , or their descent ; these and such like things , though for convenience they be requisite , yet not essential to the church or its truth . yea , the having of baptism , organizing by officers , though more necessary and of divine institution , yet are not essential to a church or its truth ; but that the church without them , may be a true church , though not so regular and well ordered as it should be . nor doth the having of national rulers ecclesiastical , either single persons , or in a synod or convocation , make a false church . those of the congregational way have had synods , and submitted to courts even in ecclesiastical things of larger extent than a congregation of one town , and churches of a greater number , and at greater distance of habitation than could meet in one place every lords day for all ordinances , and deny not a catholick visible church , and therefore should not by reason of the number , distance , want of officers of divine institution , or because modelled by humane prudence , call a national church , a false church . the proofs used by those that held , that many particular congregations may be under one presbyterial government , printed in the year . from the number of the church at jerusalem ; yet one church , acts . . under one government , besides what is found in the scripture about the churches of corinth , ephesus , are sufficient to evince , that many congregations may be one church ; and that the unity and truth of churches , is to be taken from agreement and verity of faith : and that a national church , so denominated , in respect of the agreement in profession , or subjection to government , or convention by deputies or messengers in one synod , may be one national church , and a true church of christ. but it is objected , that the first church is of christs institution ; and that was of so many as might meet in one congregation , even the church at jerusalem , that was numerous before the dispersion , yet might meet together in one assembly ; as appears , acts . . when the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them about the election of deacons . to this it is answered , . that in st. luke there are many places where the multitude with an universal sign ] is not to be taken for every one , not one exempted , as luke . . acts . . when it is said that all the multitude of the disciples began to rejoyce , luke . . it is to be limited to those that were present . and so in this place , and act. . , . and . . as in many the like expressions , all sorts of authors are to be interpreted , to understand by the multitude , and all , or the whole multitude , city , company , of such a number as might be reputed as the whole . now it is not likely that there was one place fit for that business , which could receive the whole number of the disciples then at jerusalem , so as to place them orderly for the hearing and debate of that business , for which they met , and , the multitudes being of women as well as men , act. . . it is not likely every woman was called to that meeting . . but were it granted that they then met for that business , yet there is no likelyhood they met for all ordinances . for though it be said , act. . . that they were all with one accord in solomons porch , and they continued daily with one accord in the temple ; yet they did break bread from house to house , acts . . . this church of jerusalem , though the first church , cannot be said to be the pattern of all churches , sith it was not with any distribution of believers under particular pastors , nor at that time had any fixed officers , but was to be surcularis ecclesia , that church from whence were to be taken such as might plant other churches , for which end they were after dispersed , acts . . . . this disposition of that church , we find not to have been by any institution of precept , which should make a certain rule to us about the fashioning and setling of churches : but these things came to pass according to divine promises and providence , which being so various , as that no certain rule can be accommodated to all times , places , and estates of the church of god , we may judge , that christ hath left the shaping of churches much to humane prudence , the ends of christian assemblies and societies being observed . sect. . mr. parker's arguments , that the form of churches is of divine institution , are answered . but this seems to some to be absurd , and thus i find it argued by mr. robert parker , de polit. eccl. l. . c. . is not the first church the body of christ , cor. . . and he that shewed himself an accurate worker in the determining the dimension and measure of mans body , gen. . so as that nothing might be added or taken from it by any : may it be thought that he hath not shewed himself also an accurate worker in circumscribing the dimension of his own body ? answ. it is true : the church of christ , is the body of christ. but this is rather true of the universal church , and mystical body of christ , as may be gathered from . cor. . , . in that by one spirit christians are all baptized into one body , whether jews or gentiles , bond or free ; and from ephes. . , . where the church , which is the body of christ the head , is the fulness of him that filleth all in all ; eph. . . there is one body , and one spirit ; then of the first church , that is the first visible church , which he makes a particular congregation , such as that at jerusalem was . and it is true of this church , he is so accurate a former , as that he fashions the dimensions of it . he is the head , from whom the whole body , fitly joyned together , and compacted by every joynt of supply , according to the effectual working in the measure of every part , maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of it self in love , eph. . . yet this is not without the use of men , for the perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministry , for the edifying of the body of christ ; till we all come in the unity of faith , and of the knowledge of the son of god unto a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of christ , v. . . so that it cannot be said , that no more is left to man about circumscribing the dimensions of this body ; much less , that nothing more is left to humane prudence about circumscribing the dimensions of the visible church , universal , national , or parochial , than was to the making of mans body in the first creation , gen. . this therefore is but a rhetorical flourish from a similitude , in which though there be an agreement thus farr , that christ is the alone framer of his church , in respect of its inward form by the operation of his spirit ; yet it is not so in respect of the outward forme , but that much of it is left to the ordering of men , as divine providence shall guide them , and circumstances require . the rest of his arguing is of like sort . again , each first church of god is the house and building of god , cor. . . heb. . . . tim. . . and what prudent housholder will permit the figure or quantity of his house , to the arbitrement , and will of others ? answer , it is true , the church of god , not only the universal , or particular church , but also each believer is the house of god , not a material , but , as st. peter speaks , pet. . . a spiritual house , and it is true , that it is god that builds this house , and that christ is the only foundation , and yet others are subordinate builders and foundations , whereof some are master builders , and wiser than other after workmen , cor. . . and foundations too in respect of their doctrine , ephes. . . and to these builders or foundations , though the faith and doctrine , upon , and by which they are to be built , is not left to mens will and choice , yet many things pertaining to the outward figure and quantity , that is the distributing of churches into oecumenical , national , classical , parochial ; and the ordering of meetings for their edifications with many things pertaining to good order and decent behaviour , are left under general rules to be observed , to the prudence of governours of gods house . but we have more of the like stuffe . what ? the corporal temple had its dreadth , and its measure described most accurately by god , shall not the spiritual have its ? wherefore then was that reed given to john ? wherefore a command to measure the temple rev. . : answer , each believer is the temple of god , cor. . . cor. . . and . . and this is as true of each houshold church , as of each congregational church , and it is true , that god hath by his providence described the spiritual temple as well as the corporal , but he hath not given to us any such description of the outward fashion , and order the breadth and measure , that is the number , situation , disposition of the parts of the spiritual temple , as he did to moses , david , soloman , ezra , or others of the material temple . a reed was indeed given to john , and a command to measure the temple of god , revel . . . but not that john should set down the figure or quantity of each particular visible church , or the number of persons , that are to belong to one visible church , their nearness or remoteness of their dwelling one to another , the choice of meeting places , and of ministers to them fixed or unfixed : these and such like things were never done by st. john , nor do mr. brightmans words cited by mr. parker import he did , but st. johns measuring of the temple was his understanding the extent of it , that is , how large or how narrow the church should be in after times , in what estate of peace or persecution , what accidents should happen to it , as mr. mede , mr. brightman and others do conceive , in order to the fulfilling of that prophesying , which by eating the little book , rev. . , , he was assigned to . as for mr. brightmans words , ( though they be not an oracle yet ) they may be granted without any detriment to the thing i assert . for though it be true , as he saith , that the true christian church is shadowed by the type of the old temple , of which the several parts were of old most accurately described and measured by the command of god : to wit that men might know that this house was made by god , that it is not of humane structure : and therefore that men should not take upon themselves any whit to change things at their pleasure , as if the heavenly wisdome had not sufficiently provided concerning the most commodious manner of each thing ; yet it might be true , which i assert , that god hath not determined the distribution and order of particular churches so , but that he hath left many things therein to humane prudence . but mr. parker addes some thing more . what was the visible church of the jewes , when that nation was called to the faith ? rev. . . moreover he who spake with me , saith john , had a golden reed , that he might measure the city and the gates of it , and the wall of it , &c. he that will neglect no part of the jewish church , but designe most diligently the quantity , longitude , latitude , hatr he cast off all care of our church , so as that he hath negligently left it's dimension to humane pleasure ? further , let it be marked in this last example of divine care and wisdome , that the church is compared to a city : and is any city so negligently administred by men , that no regard is had of limits and bounds ? answer , that the holy city , the new jerusalem , descending from god out of heaven , as a bride prepared and adorned for her husband , is the visible church of the jewes , when that nation was , or shall be called to the faith , or that the measuring the city and the gates of it , and the wall of it was to design the quantity of particular churches , or the frame and order of a particular congregation as the first visible church , is scarce probable . to me such kinde of arguments as are framed from jewish church state , from their rites , and ceremonial worship to inferre duties , priviledges , and orders about the christian visible church-state , government and rites are of no force , as savouring more of fancy than of judgment , if christ or his apostles have not made those arguments before us . yet , if any such argument were of weight , sith the apostle , rom. . , . would not have us ignorant of this mistery , that blindness in part is hapned to israel , untill the fulness of the gentiles be come in , and so all israel shall be saved : as it is written , there shall come out of sion the deliverer , and shall turn away ungodliness from jacob , i might better argue for a national church of gods institution from the visible church-state of the jewes at their future calling , than for a congregational church . but i count neither firme , nevertheless , if god do design more diligently the quantity longitude , and latitude of the jewish church at their calling hereafter , and leave the dimension of our church to humane choice , this may be done out of more special love to them , who are in a peculiar manner beloved by reason of the fathers , rom. . . and not out of negligence , nor so as to have cast off all care of our church . and though the church be compared to a city , the heavenly jerusalem , heb. . . yet it may agree well with gods wisdome , and care to leave many things to the prudence of the present governours , concerning the distincton of churches , and order of meetings ; as it may suite well with the wisdome and care of a good prince , who in his charter of incorporating a city , sets down what officers they shall have , and what jurisdiction they shall exercise , yet leaves it to the choice of some one or more to order their companies , meetings , and many particularities of their government as shall be found most convenient for them . from this disgression in answer to mr. parker , i return to our author . sect. . the ministry of the gospel is a true ministry of christ. thirdly , he enquires whether there can be a true ministry in a false church , which he supposeth a national church to be as not of divine institution , and consequently the ministry of the church of england , in that it is the ministry of a national church , cannot be a true ministry . before the query be resolved it is necessary , that it be considered what is the ministry of which it is enquired , whether it be true or false ; what is the ministry in a church , and the falsehood of the church , which may be a cause of the falsehood of the ministry . for explication whereof we are to observe . that the ministry is all one with the imployment of a minister , and a [ minister ] is a latin word answering to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from whence comes the english word [ deacon ] and notes the office of one , reaching to another that which he wants , or doth any other act whereby he gratifies or helps another , and it is for the most part the work of a servant , and implies inferiority , whence those speeches of our saviour , luke . . he that is chief as he that serveth , mat . . he that is the greatest of you shall be your servant or minister , mat. . . the son of man came not to be ministred to , but to minister , sometimes to acts which imply no inferiority of condition , but freeness or readiness , as it is said , that when some women ministred to christ of their substance , luke . . there is another word , which is used for the most part of them , that do publick offices , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so it is said , phil. . . the minister of my need or , he that ministred to my wants , sometimes both are joyned , cor. . . the administration of this service , or the ministration of this ministry , and the higher powers are termed , rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. . that is , the minister or officer of god. in ecclesiastical matters both words are used , and are applied to christ , who is termed the minister of the circumcision , rom. . . a minister of the sanctuary , heb , . . and to ministers of christ , acts. . . cor. . . the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is oft restrained to the office of a deacon , phil. . . tim. . . but the ministry we are enquiring of , is neither that of a servant , that waits on his master , nor of a contributor that supplieth anothers wants of outward necessaries , nor the performing of the function of a magistrate , by doing acts of publique justice , nor the ministry of christ , which was , and is peculiar to him , nor the ministry of angels , who are also termed gods ministers and ministring spirits , heb. . , . nor the office of deacons as their office is termed serving tables distinct from the ministry of the word , acts. . , , . but that ministry to which matthias was elected , acts . . and of which it is said , cor. . . who then is paul , and who is apollos , but ministers by whom ye believed , even as the lord gave to every one , and is meant , ephes. . , . where it is said , that christ gave some apostles , and some prophets , and some evangelists , and some pastors and teachers for the work of the ministry . this ministry was performed by the apostles , prophets and evangelists somewhat extraordinarily either in respect of their gifts or their commission , which are now ceased . that ministry , we now enquire of , is that of ordinary pastors and teachers as now sent . to these sundry ministries are usually assigned , to 〈◊〉 ministry of the word , of baptism , of the lords supper , of confirmation , ordination , government by admonitions , censures , and if there be any other work allotted to those whom the scripture terms bishops or elders . but our quaerist in this his writing , medling only with that part of ministry in this main question disputed by him , which is by preaching i understand his quaerie to be meant of that part of the ministry . now this ministry is usually expressed by the ministry of the word , acts . . the ministry of the gospel of god , rom. . . the ministry of the new testament , not of the letter but of the spirit , cor. . , . of righteousness , v. . the ministry of reconciliation , cor. . . stewards of the misteris of god , cor. . . and sometimes our ministery without any other adjunct , cor. . . and an oeconomy , or dispensation , cor. . . more fully , acts . . the ministery , which i have received of the lord jesus , to testify the gospel of the grace of god. which shewes the author of this ministry , whereupon he requires , cor. . . let a man so account of us as of the mynisters ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated minister , acts . . ) of christ , and stewards of the mysteries of god. the finis cui , or those , for whom this ministry is appointed , are the saints , and therefore it is said to be for the perfecting of the saints , or joynting together of them , and the edifying of the body of christ , ephes. . wherefore st. paul saith of himself , that he was made a minister of the church according to the dispensation of god , which is given to mee , for you to fulfill the word of god , col. . , . which shewes , that he was not a minister for one particular church , but for any part of it where his lot was to preach , and that he was not minister of the church by their election or mission , or direction ( for these were of god , and christ jesus ) but for the church , or saints , as the subjects to and for whom he was appointed to fulfill the word of god , even the mystery which had been hid from ages and from generations , but then was made manifest to his saints , to whom god would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles ; which is christ in you the hope of glory , v. , . to which purpose he speaks also of himself , ephes. . , , , . which yet is not to be restrained so to the saints , but that the ministry of the gospel was to be to them that were not saints , i am a debtor , saith he , rom. . . both to the greeks and to the barbarians , both to the wise and to the unwise , and cor. . . we preach christ unto the jewes a stumbling block , and unto the greeks foolishness , and cor. . , . thanks be to god which alwayes causeth us to triumph in christ , and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place . for we are unto god a sweet savour of christ in them that are saved and in them that perish . so that the ministry of the word though it be primarily for the church and the saints , yet is the preaching of the gospel the ministry of christ , even to unbelievers , as ezekiel was a prophet to the rebellious nation of israel , when he spake gods word , whether they did hear or forbear , ezek . . . and hence i inferre that there may be a true ministry not only in , but also out of a church of believers . sect. . a true gospel ministry may be in a false church so deemed . secondly , a church may be said to be false many wayes . . because it was irregularly constituted , that is not gathered by consent , or church-covenant , or baptism , but by humane laws , in forcing men to meet together in one congregation , or more ; because dwellers in such a precinct , or born or living in such a countrey . in this respect i conceive the quaerist makes a national church a false church . . because it is an hypocritical company , which doth indeed make them a false church before god , yet quoad nos they are a true visible church , if there be no falsehood in that which is descernible by men . . because it is schismatical , so as to break off from other parts of the catholique church , without a justifiable cause , whether out of ambition , passion , misapprehension or any other such like undue motive . . because it is heretical , or heresy is broached and upheld by a party in it . now i confess , that it can hardly be , that there should be a true ministry in a church tainted with heresy . yet sith our lord christ , writes to the church of pergamos , as one of his seven golden candlesticks , though there were that held the doctrin of balaam and of the nicolaitans , revel . . , . and in like manner the church of thyatira , or the angel of it suffered the woman which called her self a prophetess , to teach and seduce his servants to commit fornication , and to eat things sacrificed to idols . i inferre those angels were true ministers , though in a church in some sort false , that is , tainted with heretical or false doctrin . and sith the church of corinth was manifestly schismatical , cor. . , . yet apollos a true minister to them , or who else were their pastors . and sith the church of sardis is charged , as having a name that it lived but was dead , yet the angel of it , one of the seven stars in christs right hand , then may there be a true ministry in such false churches , revel . . . that is schismatical , or hypocritical not consisting of real saints . and if it be , that what is charged on laodicea , rev. . , , . were by reason of defect in church constitution and disciplin ( as mr. brightman conceived ) then also a false church , in respect of such irregularity may have a true ministry . but because this is only an argument ad homines , to such as concurre with mr. brightman in his conceit ; i will prove , that in a national church , or a church irregular in its constitution or discipline , miscalled false , may be a true ministry of christ. . if the truth of the ministry depend upon the truth of the church or it's regularity , then where is no true regular church , there is no true ministry . but that is false , sith there may be a true ministry , where there is no church at all , and therefore no true church . ergo , the truth of the ministry depends not on the truth of the church : but a true ministry may be in a false church . . if there be a true ministry , though to or in a national visible church or catholique , then that extent , which is conceived to be inconsistent with a true gospel church , makes not the ministry false , but peters and pauls ministry to the jews or gentiles churches , were true ministries , though the churches were national or catholique , even set by god in the church , cor. . . ergo. . if ministry to churches hypocritical , schismatical , and in some sort heretical may be true ministry , much more to a church national , irregular in constitution and discipline , those being greater degrees of falsehood than this . but the antecedent is before proved from the epistles to the corinthians , to the churches of pergamos , thyatira , and sardis ; ergo the consequent is true . . if the regular constitution , disciplin of the church , the election of the church or their sending be extrinsecal or accidental , not necessary , or essential to the truth of the ministry , then may there be a true ministry in such a church as this author calls false . but the antecedent is true , sith the apostles were true ministers , afore the regular constitution and discipline of churches , without their election or mission , therefore the consequent is also true . . if the denomination of true ministers be from the truth of their doctrin , and no other form denominating them , and there may be a ministration of true doctrin in such a supposed false church , then there may be a true ministry in such a false church , for where the form denominating is , there the subject is rightly denominated from it . but the antecedent is true , both from all the texts before alledged , which place the truth of ministry in the doctrin taught , and no other thing , and in that the colossians learned the grace of god in truth , from epaphras he is termed st. pauls fellow-servant , and for them a faithfull minister of christ , col. . , . and reason and experience confirms the possibility of preaching true doctrin in a national mis-called false church , therefore the consequent is also true . . if false prophets , false apostles , false brethren be only denominated from their false doctrin , then they are not false ministers but true , who teach the truth of the gospel , notwithstanding their defects , or the churches in which they are . but the antecedent is true , as may be evinced from , pet. . . cor. . . gal. . , . john . ● , , , . . john. . and many more places which denominate them false prophets , false teachers , false apostles , false brethren , antichrists , not ministers of christ , from their erroneous doctrin , therefore from it , and not from defects of churches , or other things are they false ministers , and if they preach true doctrin , true ministers though in an irregular church . there being nothing offered against this to be answered , i pass on to this authors next quaerie . sect. . gods love to us is not less , in not determining the whole of his worship to us , as to the jews . . saith he , whether god doth not bear as much love to , and exercise as much faithfulness over his new testament churches , as over the national church of the jews ? answ. no doubt of it : yet doth not god shew his love , nor exercise his faithfulness over his new testament churches in the same way or course of providence as he did , and perhaps , will do over the national church of the jews . he doth not gather the new testament churches by a mighty hand , and a stretched-out arm ; as he did , when he brought israel out of egypt by the hand of moses ; but by the calling of his word , and operation of his spirit . nor doth he make them conquerours by arms ; but they overcome the old serpent by the blood of the lamb , and by the word of their testimony , and they love not their lives unto the death , rev. . . nor doth god now settle his church in one fruitful land , under one earthly king , as he did the jews under david , and solomon ; but in all countries , where they are called ; protects , and feeds them by the great shepherd of the sheep , the lord jesus christ , and his spirit , in that estate and station , wherein they are called . nor is it improbable , that in the future calling of the jews , god will shew more remarkable providences , for their re-ingraffing into their own olive , than ever he hath yet shewed towards the churches of the gentiles , it is added . if so , then . whether he hath not ( as of old he did , with reference unto the then church ) determined the whole of the worship , appertaining unto them , to whose institutions , without any humane additions , it is the duty of souls solely to conform ? answ. the whole of the worship appertaining to the new testament churches , is either inward or outward . to the new testament churches , god hath determined the whole of his inward worship , as of old he did , with reference unto the then chu●ch ; or rather , he hath more fully determined the worship of himself , by exercise of faith , and hope in prayer and thanksgiving , having now more 〈◊〉 opened the mystery of his will , in the way of access to him , and accepting of our service ; than he did to the jews before christs coming . but for the outward worship , though he have set down sufficiently what we are to place his worship in , and wherein he hath determined by precept or example ; that hath the force of a precept , what is to be done by us ; that alone we are to account his worship , and to conform solely to it as his institution , without any humane additions or alterations ; yet in respect of circumstantials , such as are , time , place , meetings , order in doing , and the like , god hath not determined the whole of the outward worship appertaining to the new testament churches , as of old he did with reference to the then church ; but hath left such things ( though needful to the well performing of the worship he hath determined ) under general rules prescribed in holy scripture , to be set down by men , who are governours ; to whom obedience is due in order to the end of their directions , though not with equal tie of conscience , as to divine institutions . nor doth god hereby bear less love , or exercise less faithfulness over his new testament churches , than he did over the national church of the jews ; but rather more : . because the determination of the whole of the worship of god to the national church of the jews , was the imposing of a yoke on them , which neither the elder nor later jews were able to bear , acts . . and therefore god shewed more love , and exercised more faithfulness over his new testament churches , in not determining the whole of his worship in circumstantials , as he did to the jews . . the determination of the whole of gods worship to the jews , in circumstantials of outward worship , did bring in many things which were unprofitable , and weak , and made nothing perfect , heb. . , . and if god had so determined to us , he had commanded things unprofitable , weak , which made nothing perfect ; therefore he shewed more love and faithfulness to us , in not so determining . . the things god had determined to the jews about the circumstantials and rituals of his worship , were but shadows of good things to come , which were not fit to be continued , or to be supplied with any other , christ being come , who was the body , or substance , col. . , . heb. . . therefore god in not determining such things to us , hath shewed more love and faithfulness . such ordinances were carnal , to endure only until the time of reformation ; therefore it is a part of gods love and faithfulness , that neither the same in particular , nor other , are precisely determined to us by god , this time of the gospel , being the time of reformation , heb . , . . god so determined the whole of his worship to the jews , because they were in their minority , and therefore were to be kept under those weak and beggerly elements of the world , as under tutors , and governours , until the time appointed of the father , gal. , , , . but the christian believers are as sons come to age , and therefore fit to be released of them , and such like ; and to be at more liberty in these things , than they were before , v. . . the time before christs coming , was an estate under moses a servant ; but now the estate of christians is under christ the son , gal. . , , , heb . , . therefore our freedom from such determinations as were upon the jews , is more congruous , than to have them imposed on us ; and consequently , a sign of more love in god. . if such determinations of the whole of gods worship had been to us , as were to the jews , we had not reaped the fruit of christs death , by which he did abolish them , eph. . , . col. . . and consequ●ntly , had tasted less of the love of god than we have ; if the same , or such precise determinations of the whole of gods worship , had been continued to us . . the apostles judged it a great benefit to the christian churches , that they were exempt from them ; and it seemed good to the holy ghost , and to them , to lay upon the churches no greater burden , than those necessary things , mentioned acts . , . therefore they counted it an effect of gods love , that he had not determined the whole of his worship to us , as he did to the jews . . this yields us also another reason why it is an effect of gods greater love to the gentile churches , that he hath not determined to them the whole of his worship , as he did to the jews ; because those gentile christians being of divers nations and languages under divers governments , used to divers customs , could not conveniently , if at all , practice such an uniformity of circumstances , as they must have done if god had determined the whole of his worship , as he did to the jews . to averr that god hath determined the whole of his outward worship in circumstantials , as he did to the jews , is to infringe our christian liberty , and to bring us into such bondage as they were in , who were under the law ; which is not agreeable to that love which god hath born to the new testament churches , and the new covenant , which he hath made under the gospel , gal. . , , . this author adds : sect . christ designs officers and offices for his church ( not as were in the jewish ) which are the same , while their work is the same , though some titles be new . yea , . whether he hath not now ( as then ) designed the several officers and offices , his wisdom thought sufficient for the management of the affairs of his house ; so that the invention of new ones by the sons of men , is not only needless , but a daring advance against the soveraignty , care , and wisdom of god over his churches ? answ. . god did , besides moses and the seventy elders , joshuah and the judges , david and other kings , for the government of the people of israel , and prophets raised up , as he thought good , for special purposes ; design aaron and his sons , and the levites for the services of the tabernacle , and temple . but he hath not designed such officers or offices , as either moses and the jewish sanhedrin , david or the judges ; or as the priests and levites , and their services , were for the management of the affairs of his house ; that is , the christian church ; it being gods design not to gather this church , or to form it in that way and government , as he did the jewish . christ did not gather his church , as the jews were by moses brought out of egypt ; nor were erected into the form of a political body , but of a school ; without either infringing the power of the caesars , and their officers ; or withdrawing the people from the officers belonging to the temple , though corrupt . if any advance themselves , or others into offices , from the pattern of the aaronical priesthood or services ; as the papists , who will have their pope to be universal supreme bishop , in correspondence to the high priest of the jews ; to be absolutely obeyed , as he was in the synedrium ; to be infallible in his determinations , to have power of adjudging to death for heresie ; to make sacrificing priests for quick and dead , in imitation of the levitical priests . i conceive that the invention of such new ones by papists , or any other of the sons of men ; is not only needless , but a daring advance against the soveraignty , care , and wisdom of god over his churches ; the temple , and the priesthood thereof , being now by god taken away . . god hath designed by his son and his apostles , the several officers and offices his wisdom thought sufficient for the management of the affairs of his house , that is , his church , as they are such . first , christ jesus called his twelve disciples together , and gave them power and authority over all devils , and to cure diseases ; and he sent them to preach the kingdom of god , and to heal the sick , luke . , . after he appointed other seventy also , and sent them two and two before his face , into every city and place , whither he himself would come ; and these were confined to the lost sheep of the house of israel , mat. . . to whom ( he saith ) only he was sent , mat. . . st. peter having confessed him , christ tells him , mat. . . thou art peter , and upon this rock will i build my church ; which by reason of the repeating of his name , and alluding to it , and thereby minding him of it , is justly to be thought to imply a promise of a special use of him , in the building of his church ; not barely as that particular man , but as a foundation of it by his preaching ; as other apostles are called foundations , eph. . . in respect of their doctrine , wherein st. peter had some work before the other in his preaching , acts . and . and . and therefore christ promiseth to give him the keys of the kingdom of heaven , mat. . . so as by his preaching to open the kingdom of heaven , first to the jews , and then to the gentiles , when cornelius was admitted into the kingdom of heaven ; and therefore act. . . he speaks of it as his preheminence , that god made choice among the disciples , that the gentiles by his mouth should hear the word of the gospel , and believe ; he imploying that key of knowledge , which the lawyers had taken away ; who entered not themselves into the kingdom of god , and them that were entering in , they hindered , luke . . to him our lord christ assures , mat. . . whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth , shall be bound in heaven : and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth , shall be loosed in heaven . which phrase seems by the expressions , mat. . . rev . . to import , that what he should command to be done , should be in heaven ratified , as commanded by god ; as it was acts . . acts . , . acts . . and what he should untie , that is , free men from the obligation of , that should be untied in heaven ; that is , god would not require the observation of it : which was performed acts . , , , . acts . . which promises , though personal to st. peter ; and in respect of the first work , peculiar to him ; neither imparted to any other apostle , nor derived from him to any successour : yet this last promise was after made to the rest of the apostles , mat. . . and performed when st. peter , with them , decreed about circumcision , acts . . and the holy ghost established it , v. . afterwards our lord christ being risen from the dead , finds his disciples assembled for fear of the jews , thomas being absent , and saith , peace be unto you ; as the father hath sent me , even so send i you . and when he had said this , he breathed on them , and saith unto them , receive ye the holy ghost . whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted unto them , and whosesoever sins ye retain they are retained , john . , , , . the words of salutation , of mission , the breathing on them , and imparting the holy ghost to them do import , that the remission and retaining of sins there promised , was a peculiar power given to them on whom he thus breathed , though also communicated after to other apostles , who were in like manner sent , and received the holy ghost as they did . which remission of sins was accomplished , when by their preaching , persons repented , and were baptized in the name of jesus christ , for remission of sins , acts . , . when aeneas was cured by st peter , acts , . . for healing is by remission of sins , mat. . . james . . john . . or by taking off the sentence of delivering to satan , by which the apostles had power to retain sins , as appears by that speech of st. paul , tim. . . that he had delivered hymenaeus and alexander unto satan , that they might be instructed , or corrected , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so as either to be afraid or disabled from blaspheming any more as they had done , when satan should chastise them with bodily punishment , st. paul also had determined by his spirit , with the power of our lord jesus christ , in the name of our lord jesus christ. when the christians were gathered together , that they might be witnesses , to deliver him that had his fathers wife unto satan , for the destruction of the flesh , that is the wasting of his body , that the spirit or soul being sensible of his sin and humbled for it , might be saved in the day of the lord jesus , cor. . , , . which had been his comming to them with a rod , cor. . . and the retaining his sin , had not his after-sorrow caused s. paul to forgive him in the person of christ , cor. . . which was the remitting of sin , confirmed in heaven . other instances there are of the retaining of sins by apostolical power , when st. paul smote elymas the sorcerer with blindness , acts . . and st. peter inflicted death upon ananias and his wife sapphira , for lying to the holy ghost , and keeping back part of the price of the land which they had sold , acts . , , . after this mission , commission , and breathing of christ on the disciples , to reestablish st. peter after his fall , christ injoynes him to feed his lambs and his sheep , thrice charging him , that he might shew his love to him , whom he had thrice denied ; whereby he doth not make him universal bishop , or monarch of the whole visible church ( as romanists impiously pervert the text ) but requires of him diligence in testimony of his love to him , by doing that work which is expressed in words , which signifie teaching ( one of them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies not ruling ) and that ministry which is common to other bishops , acts . . and elders , among whom st. peter termes himself a fellow elder , and christ the chief shepherd , peter . , , . but then christ did most design the officers and offices , he thought requisite for the management of the affairs of his house , when being to ascend into heaven , not long after , in a mountain of galilee jesus spake to them , saying , all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth , go ye therefore , and teach all nations , or rather disciple or make disciples all nations , or , of , or , in all nations , not the jewes , only , as formerly , ( mark . . go ye into all the world , and preach the gospel , to every creature , or , to all the creation ) baptizing them , thus discipled , ( mark . . he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ) into the name of the the father , and of the son and of the holy ghost : teaching them to observe all things whatsoever i have commanded you : and lo , i am with you alway , even unto the end of the world , amen . in which instruction of the apostles , is founded the function of the evangelical ministry , as pareus speaks in his commentary , consisting in preaching the gospel and baptizing and teaching the obserservation of christs commands ; which offices , the promise to be with them all dayes to the end of the world , shewes to be perpetual till christs second coming . who the officers are of christs designing may be best gathered from , ephes. . . some of which are undoubtedly to continue . and that there should be a succession by ordination of some for the churches is apparent from , tim. . . tit. . . and that they should be ordained , may be gathered from , acts . . . and . . tim. . . and . . that there should be some , who should have inspection over others , that they do not sow errours , or otherwise corrupt the churches , may be granted from , tim. . , . tit. . . . and by the things charged on the seven angels of the seven churches , rev. . , , , , , . rev. . , , , , . to set down the history of officers and offices in after-ages , to determin the disputes , about their several degrees or orders is full of difficulty , and to our present business unnecessary . this only is sufficient for present , to say in answer to the question now under hand , that such as do these works which christ or his apostles have appointed to be performed for his church are officers designed by christ , and their ordination thereto agreeable to his design , nor are those officers or offices an invention of new ones by the sons of men , not only needless , but a daring advance against the soveraignty , care and wisdom of god over his churches , though they have other names , and titles , and maintenance , and immunities , and dignities , and additaments than the scripture mentions . they that are called archbishops , bishops , deans , canons , prebendaries , parsons , vicars , curates , chaplains , masters of colledges , hospitals , wardens , fellows , clerks , priests enjoy emoluments by tithes or other revenues , may be truly officers of christ ; if they be ordained to , and do the works or offices appointed , by christ and the apostles , to the ministers of the church of christ , as well as they who are termed presbyters , presbyteries , teachers , pastors , lecturers , itinerant preachers , gifted brethren , whether they be chosen by a particular congregation , and ordained by an eldership , and receive maintenance by collection , augmentation , stipend or other waies . sect. . the solemn deputation of ministers , is not the peculiar priviledge of saints . . saith our author , whether the priviledges of saints , be not every way as great and extensive under the gospel , as those under the law ? if so , then whether the solemn deputation of men , signally pointed out by the lord , for the administration of holy things in his house , by the body of his church , be not now ( as then ) their peculiar priviledge ? answer , the people of israel were a holy people to god , and conceived to be meant by the saints of the most high , dan. . . but , that the solemn deputation of men , signally pointed out by the lord , for the administration of holy things in his house by the body of that church was their peculiar priviledge , is not proved , but the contrary is manifest , that the priests and levites were by gods own choice set a-part as is before said sect. . saints now are either real , or in appearance only . the former as such are invisible , and it is granted , that they have priviledges in spiritual blessings in heavenly things in christ , every way as great and extensive under the gospel , as those under the law ; yea in some degree greater , to wit in the clearer revelation of the mystery of gods counsel , and accomplishment of gods promises by the prophets , and gift of his spirit . saints in appearance only or the visible church of the jews had in some things greater priviledges , such as those mentioned , rom. . , . rom. . , . gods revealing his minde by urim and thummim , extraordinary prophets and many more , than christians now , and therefore no good inference can be made from the priviledge of the saints then in the solemn deputation of ministers of holy things ( if it had been such as this author supposeth ) unto the same priviledg to the saints now . the solemn deputation of apostles and other ministers of the gospel , we finde not to have been the peculiar priviledg of the body of the church in any part of the new testament . their ordination is no where mentioned as done by the saints or brethren , which were not officers , nor is there any plain proof of their election by all or the major part of the members of each church in the scripture , and though ther● be in antiquity in the first ages relations of their election , yet withall such stories of the tumults , frayes and other disorders , as necessitated an a teration of that course , are related . considering how unquiet , in judicious , deceitful , factious , divided those are that usurp the name of saints , and perhaps are , i see not how safe it were to commit the solemn deputation of ministers to them without much regulation of them , and ability of discerning of spirits , which is not a gift continued to the churches , who oft are as easily deceived by hypocrites and seducers , as others , and if it were the peculiar priviledg of saints , it were not to be denied to women , contrary to the apostles rule , cor. . , . tim. . , . if it were such a peculiar priviledg to saints , to ordain or choose their ministers , so as they were not to own any , but whom they choose , then the lesser part of a congregation were not bound to take him for their minister , who is not chos●n by themselves , though chosen by the most , each person might choose his minister , and withdraw for his ministry at pleasure , if not chosen by him , and refuse to contribute to his maintenance , which , w●th many inconveniences , too often exemplified in churches gathered in the congregational way , cause such churches to be often dissolved , or to be multiplied into so many parties as make them unfit for any good order or use . sect. . corruptions in non-fundamentals un-church not . the quaerist adds . whether any church in the world ( we speak of a visible instituted church ) hath greater security against apostacy from god , and that sore judgment of having its candlestick removed ( and being unchurched ) than that people of the jews had ? if not , then whether , supposing a national church to be of the institution of christ , it may not so come to pass that it may be so overspread with corruptions , that it may lose the essence of a church , and justly be disrobed of that appellation . answer , i grant that no particular church visible , whether national , provincial , classical , parochial , or congregational hath greater security of apostacy from god than the jewish , and that any such church may be so overspread with corruptions , that it may lose the essence of a church , and justly be disrobed of that appellation , we justly plead against the church of rome , pleading [ that they are the church built on peter , against which the gates of hell shall not prevail mat. . . ] that the promise is not to that or any other particular visible church , but to the invisible church of gods elect , and we alledg that st. paul writing to the church at rome , tells them , rom. . , . well , because of unbelief they were broken off and thou standest by faith : be not high minded , but fear . for if god spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also spare not thee . but we add , that not every , nor many corruptions of some kinde do unchurch , there being many in faith , worship , and conversation in the churches of corinth , and some of the seven churches of asia , who yet were golden candlesticks , amidst whom christ did walk . but such general , avowed , unrepented of errors in faith , as overthrow the foundation of christian faith , to wit , christ the only mediator between god and man , and salvation by him , corruptions of worship by idolatry , in life by evil manners , as are utterly inconsistent with christianity , till which in whole or in part they are not unchurched . sect. . every error makes not a false prophet . our quaerist proceeds , eighthly , whether the ecclesiastick and spiritual rulers , governours and officers of such a collapsed church , may not righteously , as of old , be accounted and esteemed as false prophets , that go about to cause the people to forget the name of the lord ( or his pure worship ) by their lies ( or unscriptural traditions , innovations , and ceremonious pageantries . ) answer , st. peter foretold , pet. . . there were false prophets among the people , even as there shall be false teachers among you , who privily shall bring in damnable heresies , even denying the lord that bought them , jude . ungodly men , turning the grace of our god into lasciviousness , and denying the only lord god and our lord jesus christ , john . . many false prophets are gone out into the world , john . many deceivers are entred into the world , who confess not that jesus christ is come in the flesh . this is a deceiver and an antichrist , john . . who is a lier but he that denieth that jesus is the christ ? he is antichrist that denieth the father and the son. if any ecclesiastick and spiritual rulers , governours and officers of a collapsed church do in this manner , go about to cause the people to forget the name of the lord ( or his pure worship ) they are righteously , as of old , to be accounted and esteemed as false prophets . but if they hold the foundation , that is jesus christ , and teach the worship of god in the name of christ , without idolat●y in their worship , or heresie in their doctrine , though they build upon the foundation layd by the apostle hay , and stubble , cor. . . that is some errours of their own , and some additions to the worship of god from unwritten traditions , or other supposed power about ceremonies , they are not righteously , as of old the prophets of baal and balaam , and other seducers , to be accounted and esteemed as false prophets , that go about to cause the people to forget the name of the lord ( or his pure worship . ) i add that if the addition of some humane ceremonies to the pure instituted worship of god , and some errours to the sound doctrin of faith , do make the teachers or rulers of a church false prophets , in te ipsum haec cudetur faba , neither this author , nor any of the pastors or teachers of the congregational churches , but may be judged false prophets . sect. . separation by reason of some corruptions unwarrantable . it is added , . whether separation from such a collapsed church in respect of its worship , ministers and ministry , be not only justifiable , but , as of old , the duty of the lords faithfull remnant , that desire to worship him according to his appointments ? answer , separation from a church somewhat erroneous or corrupt in worship or conversation , yet neither idolatrous in worship nor heretical in doctrin , nor requiring that to their communion which would be sinful , especially if it be total from all parts of worship , all attending on ministers and ministry at all times is unjustifiable , utterly dissonant from any of the rules or examples which either of old the prophets , or holy men , or christ and his apostles have prescribed , is for the most part the fruit of pride , or bitter zeal , and tends to strife , and confusion and every evil work , james , . . sect. . it is prudence to joyn in worship , and hearing where some errours and corruptions remain . yet once more saith the quaerist , yea . whether , supposing a church ( so called ) thus dreadfully as aforesaid , departed from the pure institutions of christ , never to be according to truth , a visible instituted church of christ , and the lords poor people living in the nation , never by their free consent members thereof , as it is on the pretended churches part , most unheard-of-cruelty to compel them , so it be not on the part of the free born children of god , most stupendious folly and disvaluation of the institutions of christ , and ingratitude to god , for the light and liberty from the yokes of men , received , imaginable , to joyn affinity with it in worship , or attend upon the self invented ministry that appertains thereunto ? many more questions of the like nature and importance might be added . answer , compulsion of men may be cruelty . but it is neither pendious folly , nor disvaluation of the institutions of christ , nor ingratitude to god , but true christian prudence warranted by the counsel of st. james and the elders at jerusalem , by the yielding and practice of st. paul , acts . , &c. acts . . cor. . , , . by christs example , mat. . . for persons living in a nation for their peace to joyn in affinity with such a church , which hath some humane inventions in worship , and to attend upon that ministry , which appertains to it , when they preach the gospel for the main , though not without some mixture of errours , and neither require them to practice that which is in it self evil , nor binde them to assent unto that which is erroneous . what more questions of the like nature and importance , this quaerist might add i know not : i thought it necessary to answer these as being praelusory to the main question , and tending to forestall the reader with unmeer prejudice . having removed these stumbling blocks out of the way , i proceed to examine the rest of the writing . chap. . arg. i. sect. . some scruples of conscience are of ill consequence . as a preamble to his dispute , the author writes thus . this is that which the lord hath said , i will be sanctified in all that draw nigh me , and before all the people will i be glorified . the great care of saints in matter of worship , is to sanctifie the name of the lord therein : this is the great thing that god looks at , the omission whereof the often severely punishes , he children of men for : now in order hereunto , it 's necessary that in all our approaches to god we see to the institution of the lord , both in respect of the matter , and manner of worship , that it be according to divine prescript , else we cannot sanct●fy the name of god therein , nor glorify him before the people . answer , this is yielded , that wherein god hath prescribed it is necessary we see to the institution of the lord both in respect of the matter and manner of worship , even to determined particularities : but in those things which are not determined by god , yet it is requisite they should be some way determined by our selves or others , we and they are not so limited , but that keeping to general rules there may be liberty of variation , and there may be too anxious care , tending to beget unnecessary scruples , perplexities , divisions and censurings , even in and of saints , which experience hath too much proved to cause fluctuations in mens minds , and inconstancy in their practice ; and to produce a brood of seekers , quakers , ranters , and prophane atheists . for which reason it is very advisable , that persons of good meaning , but weak judgments did less busie themselves in questioning such undetermined particularities in gods worship , and were received , but not to doubtfull disputations , rom . . and did satisfy themselves in such things by preferring the judgment of their faithful , learned , wise and holy teachers and rulers before their own , when their own capacity is insufficient to settle their consciences . he proceeds thus , hearing ( as was said , and shall beyond contradictions in its proper place be evinced ) is part of instituted worship , it therefore more nearly concerns saints than many are aware of , to have their consciences resolved from the scriptures of god , in the matter under enquiry , whether it be lawful for the saints to hear the present ministers of england ? 't is the negative , which we have received under our maintenance , because we are satisfied christ hath so ; to the proof whereof we now address our selves . answer , of hearing , how it is a part of instituted worship , somewhat hath been said in the answer to the preface , sect. . . . what more is to be added , will come in it 's proper place . i grant , that it concerns saints to have their consciences resolved from the scriptures of god in the matter under enquiry , and do therefore joyn issue with this author , and whereas he denies it lawfull for the saints to hear the present ministers of england , meaning in their teaching of the doctrins of faith and holiness according to that which is authorized in the church of england , i affirm it , and address my self to the examination of this authors arguments . sect. . there is warrant in scripture to hear the present ministers of england . argument . is thus , that which there is no warrant for in the scripture , being part of instituted worship , is not lawful for the saints to practise : but there is no warrant in the scripture for hearing the present ministers of england , and hearing is part of instituted worship . therefore . answer , the term [ warrant ] being a law term , notes not only an injunction requiring that a thing be done , but also an allowance or permission of a thing to be done with impunity or without blame , and either way the thing warranted is lawfull . instituted worship ( as is before shewed ) is either moral or meerly positive and ceremonial . parts of instituted worship may be either subjective , if instituted worship be conceived as totum universale , an universal whole , and so hearing of the present ministers of england may be conceived either as one sort of instituted worship , or one individual of that sort , or parts of instituted worship may be integrant , if instituted worship be conceived as an integral whole . i do not deprehend hearing of the present ministers of england , is to be conceived as an integral part of instituted worship , sith it is one act , which without any other act is worship : or parts of instituted worship may be essential or accidental , instituted worship being conceived as an essential or accidental whole . those are parts essential of instituted worship , without which it is not or is not rightly called instituted worship , those are accidental parts which may be present or absent , and yet the worship be , or rightly be , so called . these things being premised , for answer to this argument , i lay down these propositions . . every sort or kind of instituted worship of god , hath warrant in the scripture by precept of command if it be lawful . . those things which are determined by god , ●n any part or sort of instituted worship of god , are to be counted essential parts , so as that the omission or alteration of them , or any of them , makes the worship not to be , or to be rightly so called , worship of god. . those things which are in this sense essential parts , must have warrant in scripture by precept express , or by just consequence . . accidental parts , or adjuncts of instituted worship undetermined are lawful , if they have warrant in scripture by permission , so as that they are not contrary to any precept or rule in scripture about such worship . . hearing of the word of god , is a sort or part of gods instituted worship . . it is essential to it , that we hear it as gods word , with honest and good hearts , with attention and reverence , as being determined by gods command . . it is but accidental , as being undetermined by god , that we hear it from this or that person , and therefore needs not warrant in scripture by command to make it lawful . . the hearing of the present ministers of england , preaching the word of god , hath warrant in scripture by permission , as being not contrary to any precept or rule in scripture about such worship . searching , and reading the scriptures as the word of god , is a part or sort of instituted worship , and accordingly hearing it read . when god commanded the levites to read the law , and all israel to hear it at the end of every seven years , in the solemnity of the year of release in the feast of tabernacles , deut. . , , , , . the reading by such persons , and hearing at that time , was an essential part of worship ; but shaphans reading before josiah , ( chron. . . ) and his hearing of it then , was a part of instituted worship accidental , because not determined by command , but ordered by providence , and yet warrantable by permission : gods command being not exclusive , so as to forbid any other but levites to read it , or the israelites to hear it read by others at other times , there being general precepts requiring all to hear the word of god at all times , deut. . . and even the light of nature dictating this , that a message from god is to be heard whoever brings it , of which the king of moab was sensible , judg. . . and the king of niniveh , jonah . in like manner , when christ tells the seventy disciples , luke . . he that heareth you , heareth me ; he doth not restrain hearers from hearing others who delivered the same truth : but the general speech , joh. . . he that is of god , heareth gods words , warrants the hearing of gods word . to the argument i answer , that if the major be meant of warrant by command , and part accidental of instituted worship , it is denied , and the minor is denied in that branch , that there is no warrant in the scripture for hearing the present ministers of england . but let us view his proofs . sect. . accidentals of instituted worship warranted without command in scripture . the major ( or first ) proposition ( saith he ) is evident , . from the nature of instituted worship , which consists in this , that it be of divine revelation ; else whatsoever it is , it is not instituted worship . answ. this is true concerning the kind or sort of instituted worship , and concerning the essential parts , those things , i mean , which are determined and necessary ; but not true of accidentals , parts , or adjuncts of worship undetermined ; these may be from men , and yet the worship be of god. if jehoiakim had heard and believed the roll which was dictated by jeremiah , he had worshiped god , though jehudi's reading were by his appointment , jer. . . ▪ from the verdict of christ , who pronounceth all the worship of man to be vain and fruitless , and so unlawful , that is bottom'd on any thing but divine revelation , mark . . answ. this is true , that all those actions , in which is placed the worship of god , having no appointment from god , but onely from men , are vain and fruitless , and so unlawful , and so much the text alledged proveth : but this proveth not , that the worship of god appointed by him is vain , fruitless , and unlawful , because of some adjuncts , or circumstances appointed by men , which god hath left undetermined . so though the receiving to hold traditions of the elders , and dictates of pharisees , as if they were of god , and god were worshiped by them , was vain , fruitless and so unlawful ; yet the hearing of the law of god read in the synagogues , which we find not to have been appointed by god , but by the prudence and authority of rulers , was lawful and approved , luk. . , . act. . , . act. . . . if it be lawful to conform to any one part of instituted worship , without warrant from scripture , 't is also lawful to conform to another , a third , the whole , which would banish instituted worship out of the world . answ. the first consequence is granted , yet the later is not necessary ; for though it be true , if it be lawful to conform to any one part of instituted worship without warrant from scripture , 't is also lawful to conform to another , a third , the whole ; yet this would not banish instituted worship out of the world . for when the pharisees , and all the jews , except they washed their hands oft , eat not , holding the tradition of the elders , and when they came from the market , except they washed , they eat not . and many things there were , which they had received to hold , as the washing of cups and puts , brazen vessels and of tables , mark . , . yet this did not banish the instituted worship of the passeover , and other worship appointed by god to the jews out of the world . . to assert , that it is lawful to conform to any part of instituted worship without warrant from scripture , reflects sadly upon the wisdom and faithfulness of christ : for either he was not wise enough to foresee , that such a part of worship was , or would be requisite , or had not faithfulness enough to reveal it , though the scripture compares him to moses for faithfulness , who revealed the whole will of god to the making of a pin in the tabernacle . answ. it no way reflects , with any disparagement , upon the wisdom and faithfulness of christ , to assert , that it is lawful to conform to accidental parts , or rather adjuncts , or circumstances of instituted worship , without warrant from scripture by express command ; for though christ was wise enough to foresee what parts of worship were or should be requisite , and had faithfulness enough to reveal what god did require , and did make known by himself , or his apostles , what kind of worship should be observed by christians , and what parts were essential or necessary to be observed , were determined in scripture : yet many accidental things , adjuncts , or circumstances of that instituted worship , were left to the prudence , and authority of men , chiefly of rulers , which the lord foreseeing , that his churches would be gathered out of many nations of various customs , dispositions , governments , thought fit to be permitted to them , though he did restrain the jews more strictly by moses , which was their burthen , and it is our ease , that we have more liberty than they had : christ was faithful as moses , in that he revealed to us what was his fathers will in spirituals , more clearly than moses ; but for externals , appointed but few things , and those easie ; in what else was to be added , he left it to be ordered under general rules , as it should be found convenient in after times . and to argue in this manner , if christ did not appoint every accidental part of instituted worship , he had failed in wisdom or faithfulness , and had come short of moses , seems to me to be like their arguing , who in the canon law say , if christ had not appointed an universal bishop to end controversies , as there was an high-priest among the jews , non satis discretus esset , he had not been discret enough , very presumptuously , if not blasphemously , shaping christs wisdom after the model of our understanding ; and injuriously to us , in bringing again christian believers under that yoke of bondage , from which christ hath freed them . . it pours out contempt upon the care of god over the new-testament churches ( as if it were less to these , than to those under the law ) and the oeconomy of the gospel , as not so compleat as that of old , the whole of whose worship , orders and ordinances ( as was said ) was bottom'd upon pure revelation . answ. it is before proved , in the answer to the preface , sect. . that it pours no contempt upon the care of god over the new-testament churches , that the whole of gods worship , orders , and ordinances in circumstantials or accidentals , which are liable to much variation in churches of different nations , are not bottom'd upon pure revelation divine , but in many things left to humane prudence : yea it is an effect of gods love and care over the new-testament churches , that he hath not tied them in so many things to external rites and particularities of instituted worship , as he did the jews : nor is the oeconomy of the gospel less compleat , than that of old for this cause ; but if i understand the apostle , col. . , , . this reasoning is either the same , or every like that of the philosophical , or judaizing teachers , to which the apostles caution is opposed , telling them , that all fulness was in christ , they were compleat in him without the tradition of men , or rudiments of the world ; by which the jewish rites to be meant , is apparent from col. . , , . gal , . . saith he , it carries with it a sad reflection upon the authority of the scripture , as not thorowly furnished to make the man of god perfect . answ. the authority and use of the holy scripture is delivered by st. paul , tim. . , , . that they were able to make timothy wise unto salvation through faith in christ jesus , that they were profitable for doctrine , for reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousness , that the man of god may be perfect , throughly furnished unto all good works . whence is rightly deduced against the romanists , the perfection and sufficiency of the scripture without unwritten traditions for all doctrinals of faith and manners , and worship , in respect of essentials . but it is no ill reflection upon its authority , to say that some accidentals of instituted worship undetermined in scripture , ordered by men according to general rules in scripture , are warranted by permission , without command of those particularities in holy scripture . . the lord condemns not onely that which is done against the warrant and direction of the word , but also that which is done beside it , deut. . . and . . mat. . . lev. . . ( their sin lay not in this , that they offered strange fire , which was forbidden , but which god commanded them not ) prov. . . jer. . . answ. i suppose that this author when he saith , the lord condemns not only that which is done against the warrant and direction of the word , but also that which is done besides it , means it of warrant and direction by command , and in instituted worship ; otherwise he should hold that nothing is indifferent , which is too absurd ; and therefore i shall not charge him with it , till he do expresly assert it . but if his meaning be , as i conceive , that god condemns all that which is done besides the warrant and direction of the word , by a command in the new testament , even in accidentals of instituted worship ( which must be his proposition , if he argue to the purpose ) his assertion is false , and not proved by any of the texts alledged . not deut. . which is to be understood of doctrines , commands , or institutions , as from god. thus ainsworth in his annot. on deut. . . not add ] hereby all doctrines of men are condemned , mat. . . and the all-sufficiency and authority of gods word stablished for ever , gal. . . tim. . , . add thou not unto his words , lest he reprove thee , and thou be sound a liar , prov. . which place is to be understood not of particularities of instituted worship undetermined ; for then the reason should have been thus , lest he reprove thee , and thou be found superstitious : but of gods commands , promises , or predictions , of which he had said , v. . every word of god is pure , he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him ; and is opposed to the practice of false prophets ; who pretended revelations as from god , which they had not from him ; and therefore were reproved by him , and found liars . which is also confirmed by that parallel place , rev. . , . mat. . . is the same with mark . . before alledged , and is taken from isa. . . and both by the prophet against the seers of his time , the rulers and prophets to whom the vision of god was as a sealed book , and they understood not , or taught not according to his law , but made shew of drawing nigh to god , whilest their fear towards him , that is , their worship of him , or obedience to him , was taught by the precepts of men , and by our lord christ urged against the pharisees , who were guilty of the same hypocrisie ; and indeed proves , that all doctrines are condemned wherein that is taught , or commanded , or urged as gods worship , which is onely by the command of men ; but condemns not every particularity of accidentals in instituted worship undetermined by god , because from men , who reach it not , nor observe it as gods worship by his command . which exposition is agreeable with that which this author puts after in the margin , in a translation of the new testament in edward the sixths time , the author of the notes on mat. . saith , god will not be wo●shipped after the doctrine and precepts of men , but as he himself hath prescribed and taught us in his word . the same is to be said of deut. . . where god , having warned the israelites , that they should not do so unto the lord their god , as the nations destroyed by them served their gods , adds whatsoever thing i command you , observe to do it ; thou shalt not add thereto , nor diminish from it . which hath the same sense as the words , deut. . . well expounded in the english large annotations , deut. . . shall not add ] not as a comment , or exposition to a text , but man must not add any thing to gods word , either for words or meaning contrary to it ; nor as gods word , with an intent to make that of divine authority , which is but humane , as the papists do by apocryphal writings , and unwritten traditions : see chap. . . and . . diminish ] by denying any part of it to be of divine authority ; or concealing any part of it , either for words or meaning , or by partial belief of it , or obedience to it . god is not to be believed , obeyed , or served in part , and by halfs ; but as he is to be loved , wholly ; chap. . . which precept is not to be restrained to immediate worship , but to be extended to all other duties enjoyned , not only to the priests , by whom the solemn worship of god was to be administred ; but also the king , who was to have a copy of the law , and not to turn aside from the commandment , to the right hand or to the left , deut. . and yet might make orders about civil government not expressed in the law. yea , were the prohibition deut. . . and . . restrained ( as it is not ) to worship , it cannot be taken for a prohibition of all orders made by men concerning gods worship , as might be proved from josh. . . chron. . . and . . esther . , . and other places , if there were need , but such as were different from gods commands in things determined by him , or in things indeterminate , when urged as gods command , and made his worship ; wherein it is to be considered , that god was more strict to the israelites , being more full in ordinances concerning ceremonies typical , and peculiar to them , than he is to christians , whom he hath released of their burden of rites . lev. . the sin lay in this , that they offered strange fire , which was forbidden ; as even mr. ainsworth acknowledgeth , annot. on lev. . . strange fire ] that is other fire than god had sanctified on his altar . as strange incense was expresly forbidden , exod. . . so strange fire was not commanded , but implicitely forbidden , by lev. . . & . . as afterward god plainly sheweth in levit. . . so that both the expression there , and jer. . of gods not commanding , must be expounded by a figure of speech frequent in scripture , wherein words or phrases often signifie more than is expressed , which must be understood of that place , jer. . . where the thing god is said not to have commanded , is that which he had most strictly forbidden , and severely punished ; to wit , the building the high places of tophet , which is in the valley of the son of hinnom , to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire ; and therefore is rightly paraphrased by mr. gataker , in the large english annot. on jer. . . which i commanded them not ] or , which i never commanded : but expr●sly forbad , and professed to abhor , levit. . . and . . deut. . . and . . and therefore these texts are ill alledged to prove the lords condemning of that which is done onely beside the warrant and direction of the word , and that it is not lawful for the saints to practise that which being but an accidental part , adjunct , or circumstance of instituted worship hath not warrant by command in the scripture . he adds . of the same mind with us in this matter , are the renowned witnesses of christ in all ages ; generally all that write upon the second commandment , speak fully hereunto . answ. this assertion cannot be proved , nor is it likely to be true , such those few testimonies alledged of cyprian , beza , luther , and whitaker , are impertinent . that of cyprian , epist. . to caecilius , is manifestly meant of that which is prescribed by christ , and not of adjuncts undetermined ; the whole epistle being against the aquarii , who would have water only in the lords supper ; whom cyprian refutes , asserting that christ used and commanded wine mingled with water , erring therein . bezas words in his annot. on philip. . . that it is unsafe to decline from the word of god , though but an hairs breadth , are to be understood of things determined therein . luthers words on pet. . . as they are cited ( which i have not the book to examine ) are meant of doctrines or decrees , which he would not have subscribed to , or taught , unless in the word of god. the place where dr. whitakers words are , is not quoted : they seem to be against the popish use of oyl in their sacraments , which they conceive to confer grace , and add it to baptism , in which christ hath appointed no other element but water , and therefore i conceive them not to assert that which is the major to be proved , that the practice of adjuncts of instituted worship undetermined , is unlawful without a command in scripture . that many others may be added to these , i doubt not ; but that they speak home to his proposition , i believe not . voet. polit. eccles. part . . l. . h. . c. . sect . . ecclesiae in genere potestatem ceremonias adiaphoras assumendi , & in cultu divino adhibendi nemo hactenus negarit qui ei tribuit potestatem clavium & cum ea potestatem regiminis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sive 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. the declaration of the congregational elders , ch. . saith , there are some circumstances concerning the worship of god , and government of the church , common to humane actions and societies , which are to be ordered by the light of nature and christian prudence according to the general rules of the word . sect. . prejudice is no argument , nor personal motives good proof . he adds : the minor , ( or second proposition ) consists of two parts : that hearing is part of instituted worship , one would wonder should it be denied ; however 't is evident it is so , from the light of this single demonstration : that in which we wait upon god in the way of an ordinance for the communication of good , beyond the vertue of any creature to conveigh to us , is part of the instituted worship of god ( for what i wait for , not being in the thing it self , in which i am waiting , no ground can be assigned for my expecting good through it , but divine institution ) but in the hearing of the word , we wait upon god in the way of an ordinance , for the communication of good , beyond the vertue of any creature to conveigh to us : therefore . answ. i do grant hearing the word of god to be one part , or sort of gods instituted worship in the sense delivered by me in the answer to the preface , in the three first sections ; because it is required by god , and tends to shew our subjection to him as our soveraign lord , and our acknowledgment of his transcendent wisdom and infallibility ; and is for these ends an address immediately to god , on whom only we wait to know his will , though brought us by his created messenger , whose doctrine we receive not as his word , but as the word of the living god ; nor believe or obey it any farther than it appears to be his . but i do not take the argument here produced , to be demonstrative , sith there be many things , as marriage , eating , drinking , ploughing , sowing , &c. in which we wait upon god in the way of an ordinance for the communication of good beyond the vertue of any creature to conveigh to us , and yet are not parts of the instituted worship of god. . saith he , that hearing the present ministers of england is not warranted in the scripture : this will be manifested when we come to the ventilating and scanning of those places which are usually produced for the abetting of the practice of some in this matter : in the mean while , we crave liberty to profess , that it is not opinionativeness , singularity , vain-glory , uncharitableness , or any thing of that nature ( as some are apt uncharitably enough to censure ) but the dread and awe of god ( who is a jealous god , and especially in point of worship ) and an holy fear of offending him , that hinders us from complying in these matters : could but one word , tittle , or iota be produced from the scriptures of god , for the warranting the hearing the present ministers of england , we should quickly lay our mouths in the dust , confess and bewail our folly in refusing to conform thereunto : but this we are fully assured , those that dissent from us are not able to do : what they say therein , shall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , be sifted to the uttermost . answ. the hearing the present ministers of england , while they teach the doctrine of gods word , is warranted in scripture , which forbids only the hearing of false prophets , mat. . . antichrists , that seduce , that bring not the doctrine of the apostles , joh . , . and . , , . joh. . which if he prove the ministers of england to be , his minor is proved ; but not either by personal exceptions against their entry on their ministry , or their sinful practices ; nor by ventilating or scanning of those places which are usually produced for the abetting of the practice of some in this matter . for though ministers be as bad as judas , yet they may be heard preach the gospel , as he was ; and though the places alledged should prove insufficient for what they are produced , yet is not the minor proved , till the sin be shewed , which is committed by hearing the present ministers , ( for where there is no law forbidding , there is no transgression , rom. . . ) and not people affrighted , by filling them with unnecessary scruples ; nor divided one from another upon such suggestions , as this writing yields ; nor drawn to separations and oppositions , which tend to the undoing of men in their estates , hinder the publick peace , and the furtherance of the gospel . to prevent which it little avails , that this author acquaints us with his motive in his writing this piece . for though all he sayes of himself were true ( as charity binds me to believe it to be ) yet it serves only to create prejudice in the minds of well-meaning people , who are led more by the opinion they have of the writer , than by the strength of his arguments ; and for the most part hinders the impartial search for truth , and makes men adhere faster to a party . we know the opinion that was had of the holiness of the pharisees , was the greatest stumbling-block to the jews against christs doctrine ; and the opinion of the holiness of monks , was the great furtherance of popish superstition and idolatry ; and the opinion of many teachers , hath bred many errours ; of which i gave warning many years since , in a little treatise , entituled , anthropolatria on cor . . foreseeing ( as it hath come to pass ) that glorying in teachers would be the mischief of the churches ; from which it is time to take off people , and to make them more diligent and serious in examining what is said on both sides ; as the apostle admonisheth us , thess. . nevertheless i doubt not but in the progress of this dispute , i shall shew scripture warrant for hearing the ministers of england that preach the gospel , notwithstanding the objections against them ; and accordingly proceed in answering this writing , that i may promote truth and peace , which is my aim , however i be censured ; hoping that in time god will direct honest-hearted persons to unlearn that mischievous course of esteeming res ex personis , things by persons , and give over that evil custom of too many , who speak for , or against opinions , or practices , according to the affection they bear to men ; and have no other argument why they refuse a thing , but this ; that good people , as they judge them , are against it ; nor why they adhere to it , but because they are for it . which is in effect to make them their masters , contrary to christs prerogative , mat. . . and in some sort idolizing of them . nor do i think it unfit to mind this author , that it were adviseable , that he did better examine his tenet and arguments , sith as , gisbertus voetius professour of utrecht saith , polit. eccl. part lib. . tract . . c. . sect. . that it is the common opinion of all the reformed divines , who notwithstanding the defect of reformation of rites and government in the church of england , under edward , elizabeth , james have held fraternity with it constantly , that consent in ceremonies , or the manner or form of government , is not necessarily required to retain , or restore fraternity between churches of the greatest , greater or lesser , diverse union and correspondence . chap. . arg. . sect. . preachers may be heard , as teaching truth . if it be lawful to hear the present ministers of england , it is lawful to hear them , either as ministers of the gospel , or gifted brethren : but it is not lawful to hear them , either as ministers of the gospel , or as gifted brethren : therefore . the major ( or first proposition ) will not be denied ; that christ hath appointed some as ministers , by vertue of an office-power , to dispense the ordinances of the gospel , until his second coming ; is granted by all , that it is permitted to others , as their liberty ; enjoyned them as their duty ( having gifts and enablements from the lord thereunto ) to improve those gifts , in preaching , praying , &c. for the edification of the body of christ , ( though not solemnly invested into office ) is assented unto , at least , by some of those with whom we have to do ; whence a lawfulness to hear them as ministers , or as gifted brethren , doth necessarily arise . answ. i deny the major , or the consequence of the first proposition . . because the disjunction is of terms not opposite , but coincident ; the same persons may be and are both ministers of the gospel , and gifted brethren , and may be heard under both considerations . . the disjunction is not full , sith a third member may be assigned , that they may be heard , as preaching , or declaring the word of god , or speaking the truth of the gospel : which is the only consideration requisite to the hearer to be respected in hearing . . because god hath forbidden hearing of none , but such as teach falshoods ; and therefore hearers are not bound to decline hearing any , but such as they have reason to conceive teach contrary to gods word . . because hearers are not all of them at any time , nor any of them at all times enabled or fit to examine the office , power , or gifts , or brotherhood of those they may hear . . it is lawful to hear such as are neither in office , power , nor gifted brethren ; as it was lawful for apollos to hear priscilla , acts . . timothy to hear lois his grandmother , and eunice his mother , tim. . . tim. . . the iberian prince , the captive maid ; the indians , frumentius . . the beraeans are commended for their examining st. pauls doctrine , without examining his office , power , or his gifts , or brotherhood , acts . . . if the scriptures be the rule of the doctrine we are to hear , then are we bound to look to no more for the lawfulness of our hearing , than the congruity or agreement of what we hear with it ; yea , we sin if we do not hear it , whoever he be that brings it ; as on the other side , if any bring it not , though he be a minister in office , power , or a gifted brother ; yea , or an apostle , or an angel from heaven , he is not to be heard , gal. . , . . to forbid a man to hear him that preacheth , or declares the truth of god , because he knows him not to be , or conceives him not to be a minister in office , power , or a gifted brother , perhaps out of partial prejudice against him , or upon false reports and surmises , or because he is not of his party , may be a means to hinder a mans edification , and salvation , and to harden him to his perdition . which is not unusual , but too too often ; many declining to hear them that preach sound doctrine , because they say they rail , when they reprove their errours , or vices ; and choosing to hear those that are of their way , and preach according to that which they like , or else turn seekers , denying any to be ministers , but such as speak by immediate and unerring motion of the spirit ; or hearing none at all , because of dissenting judgment from themselves . wherefore , though i grant that christ hath appointed ministers , as is said , and that it is wisdom to choose and hearken to such , and most of all to the best , and the most able : and though the reading of mr. matthew pool's quo warranto ? might deterr many , who take upon them to preach constantly and publickly in solemn assemblies , as gifted brethren , from their practice which they use . nor do i deny there may be liberty , yea , and duty occasionally , especially when there is want of ministers in office to preach ; yet i deny , that a lawfulness to hear them as ministers , or as gifted brethren , doth necessarily thence arise . for suppose a minister , or gifted brother , should be heretical , yet he is not to be heard , but shunned , tit. . . here by the way i take notice , that if it be lawful to others , then ministers to preach as their liberty permitted to them . some practice that is a part of instituted worship , is warranted in scripture , as the persons liberty by permission without command ; and therefore hearing of the present ministers may be lawful and warranted in scripture as mens liberty by permission without command , which was my answer to this authors first argument against hearing them , and is now confirmed by his concession concerning the preaching of gifted-brethren . sect. . they may be heard as ministers of the gospel , who are not rightly called . it is added : 't is the minor ( or second proposition ) that is capable , in the thoughts of some , of a denial : which we prove per partes , thus . . 't is not lawful to hear them as ministers of the gospel : they are not such , therefore may not be heard as such . ans. i deny this consequence , if a man either ignorantly or fraudulently get into the place of a minister of the gospel , or be unduly chosen or ordained ; yet if he have the place of the minister of the gospel , and preach it truly he may be heard as a minister of the gospel , though he be not such ; that is , rightly called and stated in that function . the reasons whereof are , . because every hearer is not bound to examine the entrance of the teacher into his function ; therefore it is enough to hear him as such , that there is nothing appears to the contrary . . because it is above the ability of hearers to judge of the ministers call in many cases , the resolution thereof depending upon sundry controversies about the power of election and ordination , which they are not able to discuss ; and there are many proceedings in getting testimonials , using means for obtaining ordination , institution , ( besides what concerns their baptism ) which either they cannot , or their time and estate will not permit them to enquire into , and sure christ hath not bound men to impossibilities . . in all governments and societies , the peaceable possessour is presumed to have right till the contrary be evinced , otherwise there would be perpetual unquietness , and so societies be dissolved . nor do i think even in the most reformed , no not in the congregational churches , it would be permitted to a member of the society to decline the hearing of him , who is taken for their minister by the most , though he conceive or know him to be unduely admitted into the office. sure i am st. paul did apply the precept exod. . . to ananias as high priest , acts . . though it was manifest that he was not such , by any legitimate succession , but by unrighteous practices , and favour of the roman governour in judaea . yea , the scripture makes caiaphas to prophesie as high priest , though ( contrary to the law ) not high priest for life , but that year , joh. . . and if relations of the histories of those times be right , no legitimate successour in that office , but an usurper , and yet our lord christ did not except against him , when he was convented before him , as convented coram non judice , or any other way excepted against his office. and therefore i judge that christs example and st. pauls are sufficient warrant to us to submit to , and hear them that are not right officers , when they peaceably possess the place ; and consequently it is lawful to hear them as ministers of the gospel , who are not such rightly called . but let us consider this authors plea against the present ministers of england . sect. . preachers may be ministers of the gospel , who are not chosen by a particular instituted church . that they are not ministers of the gospel ( but thieves and robbers ) is manifest : such as come not in by the door , which is christ , joh. . . ( viz. by vertue of any authority derived to them from him ) are not ministers of the gospel , but thieves and robbers , joh. . . ( from whom 't is the property of the sheep to flee , ver . ) but the present ministers of england come not in by the door : therefore . that they come not in by the door , ( viz. by vertue of any authority derived to them from christ ) is evident : if they have received any such authority or commission from him , they have received it , either mediately , or immediately : the latter will not be asserted , nor without the working of miracles , should it so be , would it to the worlds end be made good : 't is the former must be fixed upon , viz. that they have received their authority or commission mediately from christ , but to as little purpose ; for those that receive authority to preach the gospel mediately from christ , have it from some particular instituted church of christ , to whom power is solely delegated for the electing of their own officers , according to the tenor of the ensuing scriptures , acts . . & . . answ. if this could be proved , there need no more to prove , that the present ministers of england , are not to be heard , for if they be thieves and robbers , the sheep will flee from them , and ought to do so , joh. . . but it is an ill sign of an inconsiderate and audacious spirit , for so high a charge ( which he that fears god , i think , should tremble to bring against so many preachers of a reformed church ) to bring so low a proof ; which , if it be well considered , may be not only urged against presbyterian preachers , if he mean by particular instituted church ( as his meaning appears to be by his preface ) a church gathered in the congregational way by church covenant , as they speak , but also against his gifted brethren , who have not authority to preach mediately by election of a particular church , but onely from their gifts . and if it be said , they are chosen by the church ; yet this will not authorize them , unless the church have power to choose any besides their own officers , which this author doth not pretend . now let it be considered , what a heavy burden is put on the consciences of hearers . they must hear no thieves and robbers , no nor any stangers : if this author argue rightly from this text , and all are thieves , and robbers , and strangers , who are not chosen by a particular instituted church , who have power onely to choose their own officers , therefore they must hear no meer gifted brethren , no itenerant preachers , though approved by tryers , none but their own officers , and those rightly chosen ; and consequently they must , before they hear them , know their election to be right , and the particular church electing them to be rightly instituted , which tends to such dictraction of peoples minds , and alienation of them from hearing , as can end in nothing but meer irreligion , and make men seekers or quakers , the mischiefs of which are too too conspicuous . but i shall more directly answer this argument , and that so much the rather , because the text john . is abused by papists , to prove , that they are not right shepherds , who have not authority from the pope , whom they make the one shepherd , v. . ( as hart in his conference with dr. rainold , chap. ) from whom all bishop● derive their power , and all the sheep are to hear ; and by quakers and others to prove , that they are not true shepherds , nor to be heard , who receive any maintenance by tithes or other stipend ; because they that do so , are by them judged hirelings , and not shepherds , v. . it is granted , that christ is the door , joh. . . but it may be doubted , whether christ be meant by the door , joh. . . the reason of which is , because then christ should be said to enter by himself , and the door to enter by the door . to avoid which , maldonate in his commentary , conceives the door , v. . not to be the same with the door , v ▪ . but the door , v. . to be the scriptures of the prophets , wh●● foretold of the good shepherd , ezek. . ▪ & . . jerem. . . & . . isa. . . by vertue of which prediction he entred . and indeed the whole purport of the parable doth tend to this , that he onely was the good shepherd ; that is , the messiah foretold by the prophets ; and that all other that pretended to be the messiah , or good shepherd , such as theudas , and judas of galilee , mentioned act. . , . and if there were any other like them , were but thieves , and robbers , strangers , hirelings , though they took on them to be shepherds ; they were but false christs , such as christ foretels should arise , mat. . . but let it be granted , that the door is the same joh. . . and . the entering in , v. . cannot be meant of entring into the ministery lawful election of a particular instituted church . for then it would follow , that every one that enters into the ministry by by election of a particular instituted church shall be saved , and go in and out and finde pasture , which is manifestly false . therefore entring , is meant of every true believer , and is by faith in christ , who is the right door , by whom , that is , by his doctrin , men come to be his sheep , and he is their shepherd . but be it , that the entring be into the ministery , and that entring be by vertue of authority derived to them from him , how is it proved they are not authorized by christ immediately who work not miracles ? have not many , especially in cases of necessity , been ministers of christ by immediate inward call , who have not wrought miracles ? it were hard to conclude of petrus waldo , and many other reformers , that had no power of working miracles , that they were not ministers of christ ( that i say nothing of gifted brethren ) that they were thieves and robbers , because they had no immediate calling by a particular instituted church . sure this would be to offend against the generation of gods children , who in the darkest times of papal tyranny , took upon them to preach the gospel , without a praevious election of a particular instituted church . but how doth he prove , that those that receive authority to preach the gospel mediately from christ , have it from some particular instituted church of christ ? he alledgeth no other but this , that to a particular instituted church of christ , power is solely delegated for the electing of their own officers . but what then ? may not , for all this , power be given to some others to choose , send and ordain preachers for the unconverted , who yet may be ministers of the gospel , and may be heard as such ? yea , may not some others ordain elders for particul●● instituted churches ? sure when st. paul left titus in crete , that he might set in order things that were wanting , and ordain elders in every city , as he had appointed him , tit. . . giving him direction whom to ordain , he left it to him to choose preachers for instituted churches , who were to be heard , and this by power delegated by christ to him , and therefore power is not solely delegated to a particular instituted church of christ , for the electing of their own officers , but that they may be chosen and ordained by some other for them , by vertue of an authority derived t● them from christ. but how proves he the power for electing their own officers delegated solely to a particular instituted church of christ ? he saith , it is according to the tenour of the ensuing scriptures , whereof one is acts . . and that relates onely one act , of choosing the seven deacons by the whole multitude of the disciples at hierusalem , who cannot be well counted such a particular instituted church , as made up one congregation to meet every lords day for all ordinances : they were too numerous to be such , nor were they organized under fixed officers with such constitution , as is now made necessary to a particular instituted church : nor did they choose the deacons upon any conceived power delegated from christ , by vertue of any rule established by christ or his apostles , which should be perpetual in all ages to all churches ; but upon advice of the apostles for their more liberty to attend on other work of more importance , and their own liking : nor , if it were to be a perpetual rule for all churches in all ages , can it be any rule for choosing other officers besides deacons , there being a peculiar reason , why they should choose deacons , whose honesty , prudence , and mercifulness was to be discerned , and not other officers , whose sufficiency to teach , and orthodoxie were to be considered ; of which the whole multitude of disciples then , and the major part of a particular instituted church are rarely now competent judges . the other text act . . hath no colour to prove such a delegated power , but from one word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which our translation renders [ when they had ordained . ] beza , after others , [ per suffragia creâssent , had created by suffrages ; ] and because the word arose from a custom among the greeks of choosing their officers by suffrages or votes , signified by the stretching out of the hand , conceives , that paul and barnabas , did not create the elders in the churches , without the churches election , signified by stretching out of their hands , to shew their consent to the elected ; and thence is inferred , that so it should be now . but this is but one example , ( though it is not to be denied , that in after ages , which were times of persecution , the elders were chosen by the church ) and therefore seems not sufficient to inferr a necessary perpetual rule of such election ; especially other passages shewing the constituting or ordaining of elders without mentioning of any such election , as tit. . . tim. . . and though the original and use of the word , were from the custom mentioned , and did in popular elections signifie election by suffrages ; yet , as in other words , so in this , use hath enlarged its sense , & apples it to other creating , than by such suffrage , as is manifest by the use of it , even in the same book , acts· . . where the apostle are termed witnesses , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , chosen before of god ; who did not choose by suffrages of others ; and by dr. hammond , in his annot. on act. . . is shewed to be used in like manner in philo judaeus , and other authors , besides christians ; as the same with electing , ordaining , or constituting without suffrages of others , and must be so understood in this very place ; because none are said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to stretch out their hand , but paul and barnabas ; and it is said , they did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which cannot be well translated any other than ordaining by laying on their hands on the elders ; not by bare stretching out , or lifting up their hands , as was wont to be in suffrages ; and it is said , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to or for them , manifestly distinguishing the disciples from the electors , or ordainers , by stretching out or laying on of hands . so that this place doth not prove power solely delegated to a particular church instituted for the electing of their own officers ; and therefore if all were true , which is added by this author , [ these men ( as it s known ) have no such authority , pretend not to it , have it in derision , come barely with a presentation from a patron , and ordination , institution , and induction from a lord-bishop ( things forraign to the scripture ) and impose themselves upon the people whether they will or no. ] yet they may be ministers of the gospel , and heard as such , notwithstanding this argument . yet i add , that it will be hard for this author to prove , that the parish churches in england , are not particular instituted churches of christ ; or , that the ministers are imposed on the people whether they will or no : the contrary is true of many places , especially in london , concerning the incumbents and lecturers : nor is the ordination of a lord-bishop such a forraign thing to the scripture , as this author would insinuate , the bishop not ordaining without other elders joyning with him , and giving him no other authority , than to preach the word of god , and to minister the holy sacraments in the congregation , where he shall be lawfully appointed thereunto . to shut up the answer to this argument : as the text joh. . . is abused by hart , to prove the bishop of rome to be the supreme pastor of the church of christ , as dr. rainold sheweth in his conference , ch. divis . . it being meant only of the lord christ : and the quakers abuse joh. . . to cry down preachers as hirelings , because they receive wages , though it be according to christs own determination , luke . . the lords ordinance , i cor. . . st. pauls practice sometime , cor. . . and his precept , gal. . . and his approbation , tim. . , . the word [ hireling ] joh. . . being not used as making it a sin for a minister to receive hire ; but to distinguish christ from other shepherds , who was not as hirelings , whose sheep are not their own , but was a singular pastor , owner of the sheep of whom he was pastor : and those abuse joh. . . who urge it against the hearing of any preachers , but those of their own church or way , calling them strangers ; whereas the strangers there , are such as were usurpers of christs office , and were enemies to the sheep , not feeding them , but perverting them : so this author abuse●● john . , . by saying , the present ministers of england , are thieves and robbers , because they come not into their ministry by the door ; that is , by any authority to them from christ ; that is , not by election of a particular instituted church ; when this is but from an expression in a parable , in which is not the scope or doctrin intended by it , and therefore not argumentative ; and neither is it certain , that the door , v. . is the same with the door , v. . nor if it were , is the door that whereby there is entrance into the ministery , but the church , nor the entrance by right election of others , but by the persons true faith , nor is the not entring in by the door , brought as the reason or form denominating them thieves and robbers , but only as some description of them from a concomitant , nor are any meant there to be thieves and robbers , who do direct to christ , or receive him , for defect of regular calling , but such only as obtruded themselves as the messiah on the people , with intent to make a prey of them . sect. . the present ministers may be heard as gifted brethren . there is yet more of the like stuff ; . saith he , 't is not lawful to hear them as gifted brethren . . the most of them are not gifted brethren ; nor , . brethren , being canonical drunkards , swearers , gamesters &c. answ. that any of them are such , it is to be bewailed , and in a christian way the persons that are guilty , are to be rebuked , levit. . . not to be thus charged in print , in a book vented in the dark , tending not to amend them , but to make them odious ; even with them that are too much inclined to censuring and reviling of those that dissent from them , or are of an opposite party . but how it appears that the most of the present ministers of england are such as he stigmatizeth them , i know not ; and i hope it is not true . however , if it were so , it proves not that others better qualified might not be heard ; nor that these men may not bethren ; yea , if he follow st. pauls rule , thess. . . alledged a little after , he is not to account them as enemies , but to admonish them as brethren : and were all this , and more true , yet they might be heard preach the gospel as brethren gifted , as judas was to be heard , though declared by christ to be a devil , joh. . . but what saith he of the rest ? . the best of them cannot by saints , in respect of gospel communion , be so accounted : for , . there was never any giving up of our selves each to other , according to the will of god and primitive example , whence such a brotherhood doth result . answ. by [ saints ] i doubt not he means such as are members of a particular instituted church congregational , distinct from parish churches , either under episcopal or presbyterial government . for such only are accounted saints by him , as give up themselves each to other , according to the will of god , and primitive example : and by [ gospel communion ] no doubt he means hearing of them preach , praying with them , receiving the sacraments from them , or breaking bread in the lords supper with them , or submitting to them , or joyning in ecclesiastical discipline with them ; which is in effect to make an utter separation from them , as no members of a christian church . now this assertion shews not a dram of christian love , but very much antipathy in him , who denies not p. . but that there are some amongst the present preachers of this day , that are good men : and methinks he should tremble to exclude such from gospel communion here , from whose company he would be loath to be excluded hereafter . but he doth not insanire sine ratione . he implies in his first reason , that giving up of our selves each to other , ( he means by church-covenant in the congregational way ) is according to the will of god and primitive example ; which is either explicitely or implicitely to engage themselves one to another , to walk together , and to hold communion in all gospel ordinances . i will not say this is unlawful , nor at no time necessary ; but that it is according to gods will , by way of institution for church communion , or according to any primitive example , i do not yet find . gods command for such a church covenant , i remember not to have found alledged , nor primitive example : besides , cor. . . which is far from the purpose , the macedonians giving their own selves to the lord , and then to paul and timothy by the will of god ; being no covenant between themselves to walk together in christian communion , but a free addicting themselves to the ministry to the poor saints elsewhere in judaea , by making a collection very liberally for them , and urging st. paul and timothy to prosecute the collection at corinth , with offer of assistance of some of their own to that end . and the assertion [ whence such a brother-hood doth result ] is groundless . for though some have made the church covenant the form of a particular instituted church , as mr. norton in his answer to apollonius , ch. , &c. and thence deduced the right to communion , and the relation of brother-hood ; yet the scripture makes all who hold the same faith and are baptized into christ , to be brethren and members of all the churches of the world , gal. . , , , . cor. . , . and . , . ephes. . , , . whence it follows , that the assertion of the resultance of brother-hood in respect of gospel communion from such giving up of themselves each to other , is opposite to the unity of christians ; and doth rather tend to make particular churches , particular parties , than to advance the communion of saints in the catholick church . dr. ames is more charitable , trip. p. . i doubt not to say ( according to my conscience ) that among those which live under the tyranny of the pope , and do not utterly separate from him through ignorance , there be many christians sincere , according to their knowledge , belonging to the true catholick church , and so to be accounted our godly brethren . . saith he , we cannot ( as things stand ) perform the duties of brethren to them , according to mat. . nor will they , or can they in the state in which they stand , to us . answ. this reason depends upon many uncertainties , if no errours ; of which i have said somewhat before , in answer to the preface , sect. . in the addition to my apologie , sect. . and much more is in grot. annot. in mat. . , , . selden de syned . ebrae . lib. c. . where it is argued , that mat. . . cannot be understood of such ecclesiastical censure , as is now in use . certainly without all shew of reason , the term [ church ] mat. . . is restrained to a particular instituted church in the congregational way , as the phrase is , and the term [ brother ] to one , that is a member of such a church , and to say , that men of the principles with this author concerning the independent discipline , cannot ( as things stand ) perform the duties of brethren to the best of the present ministers of england ; whereof some are by him confessed to be good men : according to mat. . nor will they , or can they , in the state in which they stand to them , is in effect to profess the same hatred , or distance , as the scripture notes to have been between the jews and samaritans , joh. . . contrary to christs doctrine in the parable of the wounded man , luke . . in that thereby is denied to one another the greatest work of mercy commanded , levit. . . thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart : thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour , and not suffer sin upon him ▪ but he goes on . . if we acknowledge the best of them for such , we must also acknowledge the worst of them : for , . they are all members of the same church . . profess themselves to be one brother-hood ; so saith their rime upon the lords prayer , our father which in heaven art , and makest us all one brother-hood , &c. answ. gospel communion is either private or publick : there is private gospel communion in private reproof , and i think ( as bad as the worst of the present ministers of england be ) they are to be accounted by real ( though perhaps they be not by pharisaically minded reputed ) saints as brethren in respect of gospel communion . even towards them is to be that exhortation , gal. . . brethren , if a man be overtaken in a fault , ye which are spiritual restore such an one in the spirit of meekness ; considering thy self , lest thou also be tempted , which sure humble saints do . there is private gospel communion in opening their minds one to another , as it is said , mal. . . then they that feared the lord , spake often one to another : and this st. james requires , james . . confess your faults one to another , and pray one for another that ye may be healed . now concerning this , it follows not , if we acknowledge the best of the present ministers of england as brethren , in respect of gospel communion , we must also acknowledge the worst of them . publick gospel communion may be in hearing them , praying with him , praising god , receiving the lords supper , exercising with them , or submitting to them in respect of church discipline . in some of these at least , i know no sufficient reason , why the saints may not account the worst of the present ministers of england as brethren , in respect of gospel communion . judas might be heard as an apostle , and if he were a communicant at the lords supper ( as mr. seldens discourse in his first book chap. . de syned . ebraeorum , seems to me to evince ) there is warrant to receive the lords supper with the worst of them . we find that those that made acclamation to christ when he rode into jerusalem , were a mixt multitude of disciples , children , and such as came to the feast ; though it is likely they were not disciples , viz. those greeks that desired to see jesus , as may be gathered by comparing mat. . , . luke . . joh. . , , . yet our lord christ himself justified their joyning together in their praying and praising god , mat. . . luke . , . sure it can be no sin in any person to joyn in the true worship and service of god with any , if he have no command to withdraw himself from that service because of their presence , nor power to exclude them , and yet is bound to the duties then performed . believers might prophesie and hear it , though unbelievers came in , cor. . , . christians are commanded to separate , and not touch the unclean thing , cor. . . but those they are to separate from , are no other than unbelievers , and the unclean thing is the idol , v. , . not the true service of god , because of the presence of some scandalous brother . the people of god are to come out of babylon , rev. . but that is no other than rome , and that because of its idolatry , v. , . rev. . , , , , , . we are not to keep company with a man called a brother , if he be a fornicator , or covetous , or an idolater , or a railer , or a drunkard , or an extortioner , with such an one , no not to eat , cor. . . but this prohibited keeping company , and eating can be meant of no other than arbitrary , unnecessary society in civil things , and eating common bread , because v. . that keeping company which is forbidden to such brethren , is allowed in v. , . to the fornicators of this world ; which cannot be gospel communion , keeping company in eating the lords supper , but civil eating . the doctrine of defiling our selves by the presence of wick●d men at the lords supper , hath begotten so much superstition in the minds of many well-affected people , that they can scarce ever break bread with comfort , no not in the best instituted churches ; there being seldom such an unspotted congregation but that some or other is known , or reported , or suspected to be guilty of some sin , or errour , which is made sufficient to exclude themselves from the communion ; so that as they use to speak , they are not free to break bread , and that before the fault be examined , or the person judged upon trial to be guilty and impenitent ; which makes those very churches , which by themselves are counted purest and best disciplined , to be full of brawls , and rash censures and separations , and without any regular discipline of any long continuance . these things being considered , i answer , that i know no evil in it , to account the worst of the ministers of england brethren , in respect of gospel communion , ( if not under regular censure ) in hearing , prayer , praising of god , eating the lords supper , nor evil to account them members of the same church , and of one brotherhood , according to the rime , which should not be derided by any holy , sober christians , being only the lords prayer in metre . it follows . sect. . tender consciences may call the bishops reverend fathers . nay , . we cannot so acknowledge them , but we must also acknowledge the bishops for our reverend fathers ( for theirs they are ) which how abhorring it is to any tender enlightned soul , may easily be conjectured . answ. the bishops are acknowledged by the present ministers of the church of england , as their reverend fathers , in respect of their ordination , but as brethren only in respect of gospel communion . nor do i think the bishops affect the title of reverend fathers , as if they were superiours over the ministers or people , in respect of the common faith , had dominion over their faith , or were lords over gods heritage , or would be called masters or fathers in that sense , in which our lord christ appropriates these titles to himself and his father , mat. . , , . in which sense i acknowledge any tender enlightned soul should abhor to give it to them . i conceive they are far from usurping that title , as the bishop of rome doth , who now hath ingrossed the title of pope , that is father heretofore given to other ministers , even to deacons ; and doth claim the prerogative to be the oecumenical bishop , and universal monarch , as christs vicar over the whole church ; as having power to make laws binding the conscience out of the case of scandal and contempt , to determine infallibly in point of faith ; with much more , wherein he sitteth in the temple of god , showing himself that he is god , thess. . . but i conceive the title of reverend fathers is given to them , and taken by them in no such sense ; but that they account not only the ministers , but also the meanest christian , their brethren in christ. yet may they be called reverend fathers , not only in regard of their age , and their success in begetting others through the gospel in christ jesus , as the apostle of himself , cor. . . in which respect there have been , and i presume some of them are rightly termed fathers in christ ; but also in respect of their office and dignity , according to that of the apostle , tim. . . rebuke not an elder , but intreat him as a father . in which respects usual titles may be given , even to the unworthy , as st. paul did , acts . . and . . and such compellations and salutations have been used by holy persons , gen. . . dan. . . as warrantable ; which quakers , and tender consciences not enlightned , but darkned by prejudice and undue suggestions abhor , as giving flattering titles to men , disclaimed by elihu , job . . whose example and opinions are not imitable : nor doth this author any good office to any in such affrightments , whereby our breach is widened , and our wound uncurable . sect . it is not proved that the best of the present ministers are to be separated from , as walking disorderly . this author goes on thus : but to hear this plea speak its uttermost , let it be granted they are brethren , and may be so esteemed : they are brethren that walk disorderly , or they do not : that they walk disorderly cannot be denied by such as pretend to reformation , if submi●ting to ordination , or reordination by a lord bishop , covenanting and protesting with detestation against a reformation according to the scripture , and the best reformed churches , to own ( as consonant to scripture ) a lyturgie or stinted forms of prayer in the church , and read them , to wear the surplice , &c. be disorderly walking ; they are ( the very best of them ) beyond contradiction , to be reputed in the number of disorderly walkers . and so after due admonition ( according to the scripture ) and a perseverance in their sin , to be separated from , by vertue of positive and express precepts of christ , mat. . thess. . . now we command you , brethren , in the name of the lord jesus christ , that you withdraw your selves from every brother that walketh disorderly , and not after the tradition he received of us : with what vehemency , authority , and holy earnestness doth the apostle press separation from brethren that walk disorderly ? we command you , and we command you in the name of the lord jesus ; and we command you brethren , by vertue of our relation to each other , and that love and endearment that is betwixt us as brethren , that you withdraw your selves , &c. i scarce know any one thing pressed by the apostle with greater vehemency , than what is here instanced in : wherein we have also an undeniable convincing argument , that the persons of whom we are treating , walk disorderly : those that walk not after the tradition received from the apostles , ( we may add , and from the primitive church for above three hundred years after christ , but according to the traditions of the old bawd and strumpet of rome ) are such as walk disorderly : but the present ministers of england walk not after the tradition received from the apostles , but after the traditions of the whorish church of rome : therefore they are such as walk disorderly . what apostolical tradition have we for stinted forms of prayer , or liturgies in the church ? did they frame any ? ( those that are ascribed to some of them , are all spurious , as hath been over and over proved . ) for surplice , crossing in baptism , and many other gewgaws used by them ? if they have any apostolical written tradition for these things , let them produce it , and we shall lay our mouths in the dust , and for ever be silent , as to a charge of this nature . if they have not ( as there , is nothing more certain ) they are disorderly walkers , if the apostles argument be valid , we command you to withdraw from such as walk disorderly . but who , i pray , are these disorderly walkers ? how shall we know them ? they are ( sayes the apostle ) such as walk not after the tradition received from us . answ. though it belongs to the persons charged here to speak for themselves , and not to me , who am not chargeable with the accusation , as here it stands , yet conceiving they would say the same in effect , which i shall say now , i do , that the invalidity of this authors arguing may appear , say thus much for them ; but chiefly for the truths sake . i conceive they will deny , that they covenant and protest with detestation against a reformation according to the scripture , and the best reformed churches , and would challenge this author to prove it , that he may not be found a calumniator ; that they would take on them the justifying of their submitting to ordination , or re-ordination by a lord bishop , their owning ( as consonant to scripture ) a liturgie or stinted forms of prayer in the church , their reading them , their wearing the surplice , the crossing in baptism ( they would say , after baptism ) and deny these things to be disorderly walking , according to the traditions of the old bawd and strumpe● of rome ; and i doubt not but that they would maintain it , that beyond contradiction they are not to be reputed in the number of disorderly walkers , but that this author is an egregious false accuser . however , whether they be faulty or not , this i think i may safely avouch , that these practices ( except the first , which i assure my self they will deny ) whether justifiable , or sinful , are not of so great a degree of pravity , as that barely for them they should be reputed in the number of disorderly walkers , and so after due admonition ( according to the scripture ) and a perseverance in their practice , to be separated from , by vertue of positive and express precepts of christ , mat. . thess . . either by a separation of saints from them in gospel communion , or private familiar society . for the former precept mat. . , , . is only concerning such a sin , whereby a person sins against his brother ; that is , doth him some personal injury . which appears both by the constant use of the phrase of sinning against another , in the new and old testament , as acts . . cor. . . gen. . . and . . and . . and . sam. . . and . , . and . . and particularly in the same chapter , v. . luke . , . which were occasioned from christs words , mat. . . where christ commandeth peter , and the rest of his disciples , to forgive their brother that sinneth against them seven times a day , yea , seventy times seven times . which can be understood of no other sins than personal injuries ; for these alone they were to forgive , as trespasses against them , as the parable , mat. . shews v. . . mat. . , , . of which sort those practices imputed to the best of the present ministers are not . yet , if they were , the separation is not to be made without an admonition , and gradual process , which i think this author hath not used towards them , as i conceive his own words evince a little before : we cannot ( as things stand ) perform the duties of brethren to them according to mat. . if the sins were such as christ means , mat. . . and their proceeding according to the direction there ; yet the separation , whether enjoyned , or permitted rather , is no other than such as was by the jews from heathens and publicans , which was not from communion in holy things ; for the publicans were allowed to go to the temple to pray , even with the pharisees , luke . , . though they would not receive them , and eat with them , luke . . acts . . which shews , that the being to him that is injured as a heathen and publican , mat. . . is no other than separation from eating and familiar reception ; not from gospel communion , as this author would have it ; and therefore the text mat. . , , . is impertinently alledged to prove his separation from the present ministers of england in respect of gospel communion . nor is thess. . . alledged more to the purpose . for . the disorderly walking there must be understood of sins of greater pravity than the rest , besides the first ( which they will deny ) charged on them ( if they be proved sins ) as the vehemency , authority , and holy earnestness the apostle doth press his command with , doth evince . for this vehemency is not an undeniable convincing argument , that the persons , of whom this author is treating , walk disorderly , as he fansies ; but that they , that walk so disorderly , as the apostle here means , are so corrupt , and their walking so evil , that their converse with them in a familiar society , as with others , would not be for their safety , or credit , or the repute of christianity . which will the more appear by the instance that is given , v. . where he saith , for we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly , working not at all , but are busie-bodies : which shews , that the walking disorderly , is not being in some disorder about church government , and outward rites , proper to ministers ( which are the instances of disorderly walking here brought by this author ) but gross sins of any brother ( not a minister ) who was bound to work , or else was not to eat , v. . which ministers were not bound to do , as v. . thess. . . tim . , . cor. . , , , , , . shews ; nor were they for this not working so as not to earn their own bread , to be noted or signified , and declined , that they might be ashamed , as is required , v. . . gross sins then common to every brother , such as those cor. . . cor. . , . not those practices charged on the present ministers here by this author , are meant by disorderly walking , thess. . . which is also confirmed by thess. . . where after the apostle had beseeched them , v. , . to know them which laboured among them , and were over them in the lord , and admonished them , and to esteem them very highly for their works sake , ( which shews he expected not of them other works for the earning of their bread , than their labour in the word and doctrine ) he adds , now we exhort you , brethren , warn them that are unruly ; the same word which is , thess. . translated disorderly , whom he distinguisheth from th● feeble minded , and weak ; and therefore is meant of brethren , who sinned openly and wilfully ; and not of ministers , who do yield to that which is controverted even by learned and godly men , whether it be evil at all ; and if it be evil , it s not of such a kind as the apostle any where censures , so as he doth this disorderly walking ; and it s most likely is practised out of ignorance , errour , fear , or other motive , which may befall an holy , and upright man. nor is there any force in this authors reasoning , that the practice of the ministers must be disorderly walking , unless they can shew an apostolical written tradition for those things they practise . for . it doth not appear , that the tradition thess. . of the apostle , is any other than the command , v. . that if any would not work , he should not eat , which is not improbable from the connexion of the following verses with this , which also makes it probable , that the disorderly walking , v. . is no other than being idle , and busie-bodies ; the apostle acquitting himself from behaving himself disorderly , v. . in that he wrought with his hands that he might not be chargeable to any of them , v. . and then they need to bring no other tradition to acquit themselves from disorderly walking , than their labouring in the word and doctrine according to tim. . , . . if the tradition be further extended to those mentioned thess. . . it will not be necessary that they may be acquitted from disorderly walking , that they produce for themselves an apostolical written tradition for a liturgie , surplice , or crossing , they think it concerns him that accuseth them as walking disorderly in doing them , that he produce an apostolical tradition against the use of them . for being ( as they conceive ) in themselves things indifferent , they think it enough that there is no apostolical precept forbidding them , and then they have this apostolical tradition for them , rom. . . where no law is , there is no transgression . if it be replied in things that pertain to gods worship , there must be an express institution , or else the practice of it is walking disorderly ; besides what is said before in answer to the first chapter , sect. . it may be retorted , where is your apostolical written tradition by institution for your church covenant , infant baptism , election of ministers by most voices , excommunication of members in a congregational church by the major part , with many more ? to use your own words , if you have not ( as there is nothing more certain ) you are disorderly walkers , and to be separated from as well as the present ministers , if the apostles argument be valid , we command you to withdraw from such as walk disord●rly . but who , i pray , are these disorderly walkers ? how shall we know them ? they are ( sayes the apostle ) such as walk not after the tradition received from us . eadem in te cudatur saba . as much may be said of the separatists , if by apostolical tradition be meant an institution for every thing used in worship and church government . . this authors argument , if it proceed thus , every one that hath not a written apostolical tradition for what he doth , or that doth otherwise than the apostles tradition requires , walks disorderly , which is the force of his reasoning , then every one that sins in any kind is a disorderly walker , for sure he hath no apostolical tradition for any sin ; and then this author , if he be not a perfectist , nor thinks himself excluded from the number of those of whom it is said , james . . in many things we offend all ; and joh. . . if we say that we have no sin , we deceive our selves , must acknowledge himself a disorderly walker , and to be separated from . . the present ministers , i imagine , will be apt to alledge for themselves , that they have apostolical written tradition , even for those practices for which they are accused as disorderly walkers , to wit , rom. . . heb. . . and be ready to recriminate this author , and those of his mind , as disorderly walkers , in separating from their brethren , disobeying their ministers , and governours , commanding things lawful , and to be separated from as practising of division . to conclude this matter , were it granted that the present ministers of england were disorderly walkers , and that they were to be withdrawn from , yet this doth not prove that they might not be heard as gifted brethren , or that the best of them cannot by saints be accounted as brethren in respect of gospel communion : partly , because the withdrawing themselves from every brother that walks disorderly , cannot be meant of exclusion of himself from hearing , praying , or receiving the lords supper , if such a one be present ; unless it be determined , that every one must not only examine himself before he comes to the lords supper , which the apostle requires cor. . . but also every brother , even his minister with whom he is to joyn in gospel communion ; yea , and hath power to excommunicate his brother , or liberty , notwithstanding the institution of christ , to exclude himself , which sure is no apostolical tradition , but a far more disorderly walking , than most of those things , the practice whereof is made by this author the ministers disorderly walking . besides the injunction to every christian to withdraw himself , not to keep company , thess. . , . being expressions which note not acts imposed by church governours , but such as they ought of their own accord to practice , are to be understood of such familiar , private , arbitrary communion in entertainments , and other societies , as they are at liberty to do or not to do , or might do , were it not for this consideration , not such communion , as if they omit , they omit the worship of god , which he hath appointed , and so break his commandment . partly also , because if the withdrawing were upon publick censure of the community , yet it must not be ( according to their own rule ) without a gradual proceeding of endeavouring conviction , and precedent admonition , which being not done to the present ministers of england , to separate from them , even the best in hearing , and other gospel communion is irregular , and unjustifiable . i go on to examine what follows . chap. . arg. . sect. . that which is by some termed antichristian , is not alwayes unlawful . those that act in the holy things of god by vertue of an antichristian power , office , or calling , are not to be heard , but to be separated from : but the present ministers of england act in the holy things of god , by vertue of an antichristian power , office , or calling : therefore . the major is evident . for , . the power , office , and calling of antichrist is opposite and contrary unto the power , office , and calling of christ : not to separate from such as act by vertue of such an office-power , is to stand by , and plead for antichrist against christ. answ. the ambiguity that is in the termes of this argument is that , which makes this argument seem to many well-meaning people to be of some force , which will appear to be a meer fallacie , when the terms are clearly opened . concerning which , that which is chiefly to be explained is , who is the antichrist here meant , and what is meant by antichristian , which hath been so : strangely abused , especially of late years , that every thing that hath been m●sliked by an opposite party , is branded with the name of antichrist , and mark of the beast , and made a sufficient cause of utter separation from such as own any thing so called and of almost vatinian hatred . the word [ antichrist ] i find not in any place in the bible , but in the epistles of st. john , joh. . . as ye have heard that antichrist should come , even now are there many antichrists , whereby we know that it is the last time , v. . he is antichrist that denieth the father and the son , ch . . . and every spirit that confesseth not that jesus christ is come in the flesh , is not of god : and this is that spirit of antichrist , whereof ye have heard that it should come , and even now already is it in the world , john. . for many deceivers are entered into the world , who confess not that jesus christ is come in the flesh . this is a deceiver and an antichrist , or the deceiver and the antichrist . in which passages i observe : . that antichrist is described as a deceiver , as one that opposeth the grand truth of the gospel , and therefore the word in the scripture use is not applied to persecuting princes and emperours , as the great turk , but to false teachers . . that the opposition is by denying , not by making himself christ , but by denying jesus to be the christ ; and therefore the term antichrist is not one that sets up himself as if he were christ , they are expressed by another word [ pseudo-christs ] mat. . . but one that is against christ by teaching contrary to him . . that the term antichrist is applied to many false teachers who were in st. johns time . . that yet there was one antichrist more notable than the rest to come into the world. about whom hath been variety of opinions of old , and of late much controversie , whether he should be a single person , or a state or rank of persons succeeding one after another : whether the antichrist be already come , or is yet to come : whether the popes of rome for some generations , have been the antichrist , or they and some other . the opinions of the fathers were various as conceiving of antichrist by conjectures , after the popes of rome began to be so haughty , as to usurp dominion over emperours and kings , and to be tyrannous in cruel persecutions of them that opposed the papal corruptions , many pious and learned men stuck not to stigmatize the popes of rome as antichrists : and since the reformation begun by luther , it hath been the common tenent of protestants , that the later popes of rome have been the man of sin foretold thess. . , , , , , , , . the city of rome , the whore of babylon ; and the papacy , or popes , the beast , described rev. . which is taken for a prophesie of antichrist . and though some have endeavoured to apply these prophesies to caligula , simon magus , domitian , mahomet , the turkish sultans ; yet generally not only the french and german protestants , but also the english , the most esteemed for learning even of the order of prelates , such as downham , robert abbot , usher , bedel , prideaux , together with king james , and his defendant andrews , and many more have applied the prophesies in the revelation , and thess. . to the roman popes , as the antichrist that was to come . whence every thing that is retained in the protestant churches , not taught or exemplified in the scriptures , according to the use of the church of rome , is usually termed antichristian , as coming from rome , and the mark and image of the beast , in which sense i conceive this author useth the term antichristian , as being against christ , and by power antichristian , he means authority , and rule prelatical ; by office-antichristian , the office of preaching , reading the common-prayer , administration of sacraments , and discipline according to the church of england ; by calling antichristian , he means ordination by a bishop . now out of this may be gathered an answer to the argument . if by antichristian power , office , and calling , be meant the papal power , office , and calling , and the acting in holy things be by preaching the doctrine of the trent council , in the points determined therein against protestants , by administring sacraments according to the roman missal ; and discipline according to the canon law of the popes , in which papal power is established , the major is granted and the minor denied . for though i deny not that a person ordained by a popish bishop , if he forsake popish doctrine , and preach the truth taught by protestants , may be heard preach the gospel , though he do not renounce his ordination , yet while he holds that doctrine , he is not to be heard as being an antichristian deceiver . but if by an antichristian power , office , or calling , be meant by vertue of ministry , according to the liturgie , articles of religion and homilies of the church of england , from the ordination and license of the bishops , ( which this author terms antichristian ) the major is denied ; and to the arguments to prove it , i answer , that that which he calls antichristian , is not truly such , but only miscalled such by him ; and therefore till he proves that power-office and calling which he calls such , and means in his major proposition is such : his major is denied , and it is denied , that what he calls antichristian , is opposite and contrary to the power , office , and calling of christ ; or not to separate from such as act by vertue of such an office power , is to stand by , and plead for antichrist against christ , until he proves such acting to be really so . and this answer might suffice to invalidate all the other arguments he brings for his major , they all moving upon this unproved supposition , that what he calls antichristian , and standing by and pleading for antichrist , is in truth such . but because there are some things to be examined in the other arguments also , i shall survey them also . . saith he , it 's unlawful to attend upon the teachings of antichrist , therefore upon the teachings of such as act by virtue of a power derived from him . answ. if by teachings of antichrist , be meant , the teachings of the present doctrin of the church of rome , according to the trent council , wherein they dissent from protestants ; and the power derived from him , be meant , of the engl●sh bishops ordination ; it is denied , that the preachers of england derive their power from antichrist , pope or church of rome , and i say , that it is meer impudency to say they do , who renounce the popes authority by solemn oath , and separate from the church of rome , and are persecuted , condemned , and put to death , where the pope hath power , even because they disclaim the pope and his doctrin . yet if any should act , by virtue of ordination from the pope ( as doubtless many did before the reformation , such as wickliffe , and many others ) and yet not teach his doctrin , he might be heard teaching the gospel , and in such a case the consequence were not valid ; and therefore in this sense it may be denied , that because it is unlawful to attend upon the teachings of antichrist , therefore upon the teachings of such as act by virtue of a power derived from him . . saith he , christ calls and solemnly charges his , upon the penalty of most dreadful judgments , to separate from every thing of antichrist , rev. . . & . , , . answ. it is true , rev. . . we read thus , and i heard another voice from heaven , saying , come out of her my people , that ye be not partakers of her sins , and that ye receive not of her plagues . which may be understood of a local departure f●om babylon , or rome , when her judgment of destruction from the kings of the earth draws nigh : but if it be extended further , to a departure by forsaking communion with her in worship , and leaving the subjection which was yielded to her in her government ; yet is it not understood of every doctrin the pope teacheth ; not of the bible or apostles creed , or any doctrin or service agreeable to these ; nor of relinquishing every rite and usage , though undue and illegitimate , which is observed by them ; but the fornication , that is , idolatry , heresie and other wickedness mentioned , v. . chap. . . revel . . , . it is said , if any man worship the beast and his image , and receive his mark in his forehead , or in his hand , the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of god. by the beast and his image are meant , some empire or state which promotes idolatry : some conceive it meant of the pagan emperors : others , and those both more and more accurate commentators among the protestants , understand by them , the roman papacy , and latin empire ; the worshiping of which is undoubtedly the acknowledging of its power , and subjection to their idolatrous decrees and edicts . the receiving his mark in the forehead or the hand , is , allusively to the use of marking slaves in the forehead , and souldiers in the hand , to profess themselves servants to the popes , and ready to fight for them ; which mr. brightman makes to be in the roman clergy their indelible character in ordination ; in the emperors their oath of protection of the popes ; in the common people their assuming the names of papists and roman catholiques . mr. mede more exactly in his comment on rev. . . thus , to receive the mark of the name of the beast , is to subject himself to his authority , and to acknowledge him to be his lord ; but to receive the number , is to imbrace his impiety , derived unto him from the dragon , to wit , the idolatry of the latins : whence that happily will not be unworthy consideration ; although no man can receive the mark of the name of the beast , or be subject to his authority , but together also he must receive his number , that is , be must needs be partaker of his impiety : yet it may be , that one may admit the number or impiety of the beast , but yet refuse the mark or name . that which now long since is true of the greeks , which doth evince , that the worship of the beast and his image , and receiving his mark in his forehead or in his hand , is not retaining of every usage of the papists , no not though it be corrupt and superstitious , as many zealous persons against popery , but superficially viewing the text conceive , much less such customs as are not superstitious in their use ; but acknowledging the universal monarchy of the popes , and adoring images , the host , reliques , crosses , invocations of saints , and such like impieties , which the present ministers of england do profess to abhorr ; and therefore it is without cause , that they are charged with receiving the ma●k of the beast ; and people are affrighted with the penalty of the dreadful judgments , rev. . . unless they separate from them and their ministry as a thing of antichrist . . saith he , there is not a command in the scripture enioyning saints to take heed of being deceived , to try the spirits , because many antichrists are gone abroad into the world : but is an abundant demonstration of the truth of this assertion . answ. i grant it , if the assertion were , they that act in the holy things , as acknowledging the power , teaching the doctrin , owning the calling of him that is truly antichrist , are not to be heard , but to be separated from : but being understood of other things , which the separatists call antichristian , it is not true , nor proved by the commands in scripture , which forbid only to reject antichristian doctrin and worship , not every thing said by any without proof to be a thing of antichrist . the baptism given in popery , is not by all separatists rejected as antichristian ; there is less reason to call the ministry of england a thing of antichrist . . saith he , the institution of officers of his own , by christ , to be continued in the way appointed by him to the end of the world , ephes. . . answ. it is true , that christ when he went up into heaven gave gifts to men ; some apostles , and some prophets , and some evangelists , and some pastors , and teachers , and that some of these are to be continued to the end of the world , and in that way he hath appointed : but that there is any particular way of election , ordination and mission of ordinary pastors and teachers in those words appears not ; nor how the major is proved , those that act in the holy things of god by vertue of an antichristian ( so called , not proved ) power , office , or calling , are not to be heard , but separated from , i discern not , unless this be the argument , christ hath appointed these , therefore no other are to be heard , but to be seperated from , which overthrows the hearing of , and communion with gifted brethren ( whom he would have heard ) for they are no officers of christs institution . . saith he , that there is not one promise of a blessing in the whole scripture , upon persons attending on such a ministry , with innumerable things of the like tendency and import , that might be produced if needful , are such a basis upon which the truth of the major proposition stands , as cannot be easily shaken or removed . answ. though there be no one promise of a blessing in the whole scripture , upon persons attending on such a ministry , as theirs is that act in the holy things of god , by virtue of an antichristian power , office , or calling , whether real or supposed as such ; yet if any , that so acts , as suppose a dominican fryer , or jesuite in the indies do preach the gospel truly , there is a blessing promised in scripture , upon persons attending on such a ministry , christ having said , luke . . blessed are they that hear the word of god , and keep it ; yet were there no promise of blessing , the major is not proved , unless this were true , they are not to be heard , but to be separated from , to whose ministry , as such a blessing is not promised ; which makes unlawful the hearing of gifted brethren , unless they can produce such a promise ; yea , every action indifferent should be unlawful , unless it have a blessing promised to it . what more he can say for his major , yet rests in his breast , and so needs no answer till it be produced . i hasten to the proof of his minor . sect. . the names given to the ministers of england , prove not their office not to be from christ. the minor ( saith he ) wants not sufficient demonstration . first , the present ministers of england , are either from christ , or from antichrist . there is no medium ( a linsey-woolsey-ministry , that is partly of christ , partly of antichrist , as 't is not to be proved by scripture , so will it not be abetted ) that they are not from christ , hath in part been proved already , and may further be evinced . . their names are forraign to the scripture : where read we of deacons in their sense , priests as distinguished from christians , in the new testament , deans , cannons , petty-cannons , prebendaries , arch-deacons , lord bishops , parsons , vicars ? &c. these are only found in the popes pontifical , whence they are derived . answ. it hath been abetted by mr bradshaw in his answer to francis johnson his second reason against hearing the ministers of the church-assemblies of england ( whose arguments this author hath revived , though answered long since by mr. william bradshaw , and the answers vindicated by mr. thomas gataker , from mr. cans reply ) that there is a medium , and that a ministry may be from christ in respect of the thing ministred , though from antichrist in respect of the way of entry into it ; yea , he saith , it is not necessary , that the ministry of priests and deacons , though ordained by antichrist himself , should be the ministry of his apostasie : but notwithstanding his ordination , their ministry may be the ministry of jesus christ as was the ministry of luther , huss , wickliffe , and others . i add , that if by being from christ or antichrist , be understood of outward calling ( as this author seems to mean ) ministers m●y be neither from christ nor antichrist , and yet true ministers , as those that preached christ even of envy and strife ; yet st. paul saith , philip. . , . notwithstanding every way , whether in pretence , or truth , christ is preached , and i therein do rejoyce , yea and will rejoyce . but let us consider his proofs , that the present ministers of england are not from christ. to the first i answer , that the term priests as distinguished from all christians in the sense used by the convocation of the church of england , is the same with presbyters , as appears by the latin translation of the articles of the church of england , art. . . extant by it self , and in the corpus & syntagma confessionum of the protestant churches , and the letters of orders under the seals of bishops in latin , and this is sure found in scripture , act. . , &c. the other names note not any ministry different from the ministry of christ , but are used to signifie some difference in their maintenance , or places , which may be annexed to them , and yet their ministry from christ. if this authors reason were good , the names are forraign to the scripture , therefore the things ; it would follow , that congregational churches are forraign to scripture , lecturers , sacraments , ruling elders , itinerant preachers , &c. because their names are not there . but this author adds , so are . their officers : deacons attending tables we read of , but deacons praying , preaching , administring sacraments ( so called ) by virtue of an office-power , an order of the first step to the priesthood , we find not . priests in the old testament ( both true and false ) we read of : in the new , saints are so called , . in respect of analogie to the ritual priest of old , whose prerogative it was to come near to god , deut. . ▪ to whom through christ , saints have access with boldness , ephes. . . & . . james . . . in respect of their union and engrafture into christ , the great high-priest over the house of god. . in respect of that analogie there is betwixt what christ hath done for them as priest , and by his spirit worketh in them : he offered up sacrifice ; so do they , psal. . . & . . rom. . . heb. . . he was crucified , died ; so are they , rom. . , , , &c. gal. . . . as priests , they are anointed to the participation of , do thereby attain to , a kind of holy and intimate communion with christ in all his glorious offices , rev. . . but an office of priesthood in men for the ministery of the gospel , that are to be branded by men in that their office , must preach what they would have them , and cease when they would have them ( as is the case of the present ministry of england ) the scripture is a stranger to . answ. though the present ministers of england , men are to hear , be more than deacons ; yet this may be said , that if it be supposed , that the office of a deacon be not now to attend tables , as the first seven deacons were , act. . . yet according to the book of ordination , it is his office , where provision is so made , to search for the sick , poor and impotent people of the parish , to intimate their estates , names , and places where they dwell , unto the curate , that by his exhortation , they may be relieved with the almes of the parishioners or others . if they be appointment to pray , preach , and administer the sacraments , they have this to plead , that philip the deacon did both preach and baptize , act. . , , . that st. paul requires of the deacons , tim. . . that they hold the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience , and v. . they that have used the office of a deacon well , purchase to themselves a good degree , and great boldness in the faith which is in christ jesus , and therefore may the deacons office be well conceived the first step to the priesthood , that is , the office of a presbyter . as for the word priest , as it answers to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the new testament ; if the saints , as saints , may be termed priests , then may the elders , or the best of them surely be called priests ; yea , and that in a special manner , as in respect of their office drawing near to god , engaged to offer spiritual sacrifices of prayer and praise , which the apostles conceived to belong to them in special manner , together with the ministry of the word , acts . . and . . yea the apostle paul rom. . . useth this expression , that this grace was given to him of god , that he should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( the word applyed to christ as a priest , heb. . . and joyned with sacrifice , phil. . . ) the minister of jesus christ to the gentiles , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ministring as a priest the gospel of god , that the offering , or sacrificing of the gentiles might be acceptable ; and therefore in respect of his office , he might have been called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a priest , though not properly , yet allusively ; and so may ministers now , as the christian church is called the temple of god , the israel of god , the heavenly jerusalem , &c. and if , as some conceive , the word priest be derived from the greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it may be judged the fitter word than minister , which is more apposite to signifie a deacon , than an elder . selden de syned , vet . ●braeo . l. . c. . p. . vocem nostram priest , & teutonum belgarumque priester , uti & gallorum prebstre & prestre , & italorum prets a presbytero deformatam nemo puto non concedit . p. . nec pueruli nesciunt voces istas , seniorem , priest , presbyterum , elder , ex sui tam naturâ usuque primario & significatione apertissimâ non magis differre , quàm 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & consulem , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & principem , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & regem , aut quae alia sic invicem omnino eadem sunt . as for that which is added , that the present ministry of england , is bounded by men in their office , so as that they must preach what they would have them , and cease when they would have them : i think it is not without example in the best ordered churches . i do conceive that in the churches of the separatists , they would tie their ministers to preach according to their confession , and that if any taught otherwise than according to the declaration of the faith , and order of the congregational churches , in their meeting at the savoy , octob. . . they would restrain him , or withdraw from him . sure the apostle would have timothy to abide at ephesus , that he might charge some that they teach no other doctrin , tim. . . and titus to reject an heretick , tit. . . and cor. . . if any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by , let the first hold his peace , v. . if there be no interpreter , let him keep silence in the church . which is sufficient proof , that even those that are gifted extraordinarily , may be bounded by order ; and they that teach otherwise than they should , may be silenced . which if the prelates , or others do , when they should not , they are accountable to christ , who will judge them for it : but it is no proof , that their ministry is not from christ , who submit to the commands of men , that have power over them , forbidding them to teach some truths , and forbearing to teach , when it cannot be with safety and fruit to the church of god , themselves , and them which are without . it is added : so is it . to their admission into this their office , viz. by a lord-bishop without the consent of the congregation , in which they are as officers . answ. in the answer to the second chapter of this writing , sest . . hath been shewed , that the praeelection or consent of the congregation in which a minister is to act as an officer , is not so necessary to his office , or to the communion with him in it , but that he may be owned , and act lawfully as their minister in some cases without it . the admission of the present ministers of england hath not alwayes been by lord bishops ; some have been made by suffragan bishops , not lords , and instituted , i think , by dean and chapter , and if ordained or instituted by a lord bishop , yet not as lord , but as bishop , which is not alwayes without the election of the congregation , who are in some parishes patrons ; and in others there is supposed in law , an implicit consent in their ancestors , yielding that power to the patron to present , and an after consent by receiving him that is instituted as their minister . in some peculiars and donatives , there 's no institution from a lord bishop required , nor alwayes any other than a licence to preach from the bishop . but whether these usages be right or wrong , notwithstanding them , yet may the offices of the present ministers of england be from christ , though this author further argue to the contrary , thus . sect. . the term priest proves not symbolizing with the popish order of priests . the very truth is , both in their names , office , and admission thereunto , the present ministers of england symbolize not with the ministers of christ , but the popish order of priests : ( so that if these do act by vertue of an antichristian office-power , then do they ) as he that runs may read in the ensuing paralled particulars . . they are both called , and own themselves priests ; which though some may make light of light of , yet considering that it is a term borrowed , either from the priests of the law , the assertion of such a priesthood , being a denial of christ come in the flesh : or from the priests of the heathen ( in conformity to whom , as the druides of old , our priests wear their white garment or surplice ) or from the antichristian church ( so called ) of rome : such idolatrous superstitious names , being commanded by the lord to be abolished , hos. . . z●ch . . . wants not it's sufficient weight ; the retention whereof , being also a sore suspicion of too great a compliance with , if not a willingness to return to that from whence they are derived . of the same mind with us herein is hierom upon the . of hosea , the hebrew doctors , kimchi and aben-ezra , the chaldee paraphrast , ribera ( though a jesuite ) zanchi , danaeus , sanchius , polanus , river , and almost all that write upon the said scripture . the last mentioned , viz. learned rivet , hath these words in his corollaries from hos. . , . there are many names which in themselves are good enough , and might be used , but god abhorreth the use of them , because they have been abused to idolatry ; he instanceth indeed in the word m●ss : but priest or altar being of the same a●●ay , upon the same foot of account , is to be rejected . the reformed churches in helvetia , in their harmony of confessions , are of the same mind , the ministry ( say they ) and the priesthood are things far different the one from the other — he himself ( viz. christ ) remaineth only priest for ever ; and we do not communicate the name priest to any minister , least we should detract something from christ. answ. every one , saith mr. selden de syn. ebrae . l. . c. . p. . yields , that our english word priest , and the dutch priester , and the french prebstre , and prestre , and the italian prete , to be formed from presbyter . selden de syn ebrae . l. . c. p. ▪ certà in ritualibus anglicanis nostris priests & ministers pro presbyteris clim semper usurpata . and , besides what i said before out of the english articles , and letters of orders , it doth appear from the very words of the master of the sentences , peter lombard ; cited by this author in this chapter , pag. . out of the fourth book of the sentences , distinct . . divis . . that the same whom the papists call priests , they call presbyters ; and say , that they have the precept of the apostle for them , and that the order of priesthood , or presbytery , the primitive church had ; and therefore in this the papists themselves use the word priest in english , but as the same with presbyter or elder , from the scripture or primitive church ; not from either jews or heathens , and therefore symbolizing in this name with the papists , if men had not mistaken it , and clamourously and ignorantly inveighed against it ; had given no cause of suspition of compliance , or willingness to return to the idolatry of the mass , as it is used in the church of england , who have declared against transubstantiation , and the sacrifice of the mass , in the articles . . in the liturgy , as it hath been lately revised , and to which assent is required by all ministers ; besides other wayes , as amply as any other protestant church , and therefore it is very evil , that this author doth insinuate into the minds of men such a suspicion of the willingness of the present ministers to return to popery , because of retaining the name priest , which neither came from the antichristian church ( so called ) of rome , nor is an idolatrous superstitious name commanded by the lord to be abolished , hos. . . zech. . . this of zech. . . is not a command , but a promise , that god would cut of the names of the idols out of the land , and that they shall be no more remembred , which if it imply a command ; yet it is but of the abolition of the names of idols , not of the name of priests , whom i never found to be reckoned amongst idols ; or that the name priest is the name of an idol . the other text , hos. . , . is thus ▪ and it shall be at that day , saith the lord , that thou shalt call me ashi , and shall call me no more baali . for i will take away the names of baalim out of her mouth , and they shall be no more remembred by their name ; which is a prediction of what should be , rather than a prohibition ; and the reason of that prediction seems to be this , god would not be called baali , that is , my lord , because that word noted a husband as commanding , or dealing hardly or rigorously with his wife ; but ishi , according to the first notation of ishah , gen. . . one from whom the wife comes as bone of his bone , and flesh of his flesh ; and therefore is bespoken as a kind and gentle husband , which the words , v. , , . lead to . but if the reason of the not calling god baali , be as grotius in his annot : although baal in common use signifie an husband , she shall not dare to use that name , out of horrour of that name , which hath been imposed on an idol : it may seem , that the reason of not using , should be not the unlawfulfulness of bespeaking god by that name , according to the proper and original meaning ; but lest either she should in thought remember the idol , or be thought by others to continue that idolatrous name : for the words are not , thou shalt not use the words at all thy husband among men ; but , thou shalt not call me baali , that is , in thy prayers and confessions of me as thy god. but if it be understood as a prohibition , according to the law exod . . which i will not deny the . v. [ for i will take away the names of baalim out of her mouth , and they shall be no more remembred by their name . ] to import , it cannot be conceived , that it forbids any more than the use of those names with honour , or so as to trust in them , as their worshipers did , when they applyed them to their idols , as psal. . . is meant , when the psalmist saith , he would not take up the names of their gods within his lips ; that is , as hos. . . neither will we say any more to the work of our hands , ye are our gods . which sense the words before lead to , that they should not any more prepare their silver or gold for baal , as v. . and , as in the dayes of baalim , wherein she burnt incense to them , and she decked her self with her ear-rings , and her jewels , and she went after her lovers , and forgot me saith the lord , v. . by which name of baalim , was meant the sun and other planets , as may be proved out of holy scripture , and is shewed by mr. selden in his syntagma de diis syris . so that the forbidding the name of baal , or baalim , doth not appear to be any more than the using of these names , as applyed to idols , with approbation of the idolatrous worship done to them , or giving occasion in applying the name to god , to conceive , as if he were like the idols , or allowed their worship , even as the apostle , eph. . . forbids any naming of fornication , uncleanness , or covetousness , with any shew of liking . for that the prophet meant not to prohibit the name of baal to be given at all to god , much less by a woman to her husband , or lord , as the word did originally signifie , may be gathered from that , isa. . . ( who prophesied about the same time with hosea ) where what we render [ thy maker is thy husband , the lord of hosts is his name ] is in the hebrew , thy baal , or baalim in the plural number : and nahum after him , nahum . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the baal of wrath , that is , who is a lord of wrath ; by our translatours rendred furious , and by god himself after him , as we now read , jer. . . i was a husband unto them , is in hebrew , i was a baal to them , saith the lord. yea ▪ were the prohibition such , as that we might not give the names given to idols to god , we might not give god the title of melec or king , because the idol of the ammonites was called molech , milchom , or malcham , that is their king , zeph. . . nor call god jehovah , because the gentiles termed their god jove , or jah , because they termed their god jacchus , or helion the high one , because they termed the sun helios , or adonai , because of adonis , all which to have been used in imitation of , and derivation from these names of god is shewed in that imperfect relique of mr. hugh stanford in the first book of mr. parker , de descensu ad inferos , in fullers miscel. l. . c. . dr. hammond annot. on psal. . . in mr. selden de diis syris syntag . c. . in heinsius his aristarchus sacer on nonnus , c. . if names abused to idolatry or superstition , might not be used without such abuse , the godly might not say , as isa. . . doubtless thou art our father , or we cry abba father , or our father , or christ father ; because idolaters said to a stock , thou art my father , jer. . . or say to the lord , thou art our god , because idolaters said , our gods , hos. . . nor christ be termed a priest , lord , master , because of the abuse of them to saints deceased , popes , rabbins , or others . surely the name priest being the name of no idol , it cannot be proved from zech. . . hos. . , . that it is commanded by the lord to be abolished . nor do i think any of his authors say it . hieroms words are ; though it might well be spoken in respect of the signification of the word , which signifies in common application , an husband as well as ish ; yet i so hate the name of idols , that i will not have it said baali , but ishi ; in ●espect of the ambiguity and likeness of speech , lest while a man speaks one thing he mind another , and mentioning an husband he mean an idol . what the hebrew doctors , and others named by this author , say upon this place of hosea , i cannot examine for want of the books . that which he produceth out of rivet , i assent to . that which this author saith , that priest or altar are of the same allay with the word mass , and is upon the same foot of account to be rejected , is not true ; sith mass doth usually signifie not only the service , but also the consecrated host , as the chief thing in it , which is an idol , and so is not the name priest. in the helvetian larger confession , ch . . 't is true they make a difference between the ministry now , and the priesthood in the old testament ; and it is true , that they assert christs priesthood as for ever and incommunicable ; and therefore give not the name of sacerdos , usually translated priest , to their ministers ; not because they take the word priest , as it answers to presbyter to be evil , in the sense used in the church of england , as a degree or order above deacons ; but as it is used in the church of rome , as their words shew , which are these . for our lord himself ordained not any priests in the church of the new testament , which having received a power from a suffragan , might offer daily the host , i say the very flesh and very blood of the lord for the quick and dead , but such as should teach and administer sacraments . this author proceeds in his paralellism thus : sect. . the parallel particulars prove not the english ministers symbolizing in office with popish priests . . the priests of rome must be first deacons ere they are priests ; so must the present ministers of england . . the priests of rome must be ordained to their office by a lord bishop or his suffragan : so must the ministers of england . . the priests of rome must at their ordination , be presented by an archdeacon , or his deputy , with these words , reverend father , &c. reverend father , i present these men unto thee , to be admitted unto the order of priesthood : so are the present ministers of england . . the priests of rome must be ordained to their office according to their pontifical , devised by themselves : the priests of england , according to their book of ordering priests and deacons ( which is taken out of the popes pontifical ) as is evident to any that shall compare the one with the other , and as hath been long since confessed by themselves in an admonition to the parliament in q elizabeths dayes , in their second treatise . . the popish priests must kneel down upon their knees at the feet of the lord bishop that ordains them , and he must say to them , blasphemously enough , receive ye the holy ghost ; whose sins ye remit or forgive , they are remitted ; whose sins ye retain , they are retained : which exactly accords with the fashion of ordaining the priests of england . . the popish priests are not ordained in and before the congregation to whom they are to be priests , but in some metropolitan , cathedral city , several miles from the place : so are the priests of england . . the popish priests take the care of souls , though not elected by them , from the presentation of a patron , by the institution and induction of a lord bishop : and do not the present ministers of england the same ? . the popish priests wait not the churches call to the ministry , but make suit to some prelate to be ordained priests , giving money for their letters of ordination : so do the present ministers of england . . the popish priests are ordained to their office , though they have no flock to attend upon : so are the priests of england . . the popish priests must swear canonical obedience to their ordinary : so do the present ministers of england . . the popish priests may at their pleasure , without the consent of the people , resign and give over their benefices , and betake themselves to some other of greater value : a symmetrie with them herein is visible by the frequent practice of the ministers of england . . the popish priests , though ordained to preach , must have special license from the prelates so ●o do : so must the priests of england . . the popish priests are subject to be silenced , suspended , deprived , and degraded by the prelates : as are the present ministers of england . . the popish priests are not of like and equal power , degree and authority amongst themselves , but are some of them inferiour to others herein ; as parsons to arch-deacons , arch-deacons to lord bishops , lord bishops to arch-bishops : so the priests of england . . the popish priests must be distinguished from other people by their vestments , as surplice , tippet , &c. so must the priests of england . . the popish priests are tied to a book of stinted prayers , and a prescript order devised by man , for their worship and administration : so are the ministers of england , and that to such an one as is taken out of the popes portuis , as hath been proved by divers . that the common-prayer book in edward the sixth his time was so , you have his , with his councils testimony for it : thus they write , as for the service in the english tongue , it hath manifest reasons for it ; and yet perchance it seemeth to you a new service ; and indeed is no other but the old , the same words in english which were in latine . if the service of the church were good in latine , it is good in english. how little different the common-prayer book now in use , is thereunto they that will take pains to compare the one with the other , may be satisfied . to these parallel particulars might be added sundry more , wherein there is an exact symmetrie betwixt the popish priests and the present ministers of england , but ex ungue leonem . the sum of what we have been offering in this matter , is this . first those ministers that in their names , offices , admission into their offices , are not to be found in the scripture , are not ministers of christ , act not by vertue of an authority , office , power , calling , received from him . secondly , those ministers that in their names , office , admission into their office , are at a perfect agreement with the ministers of antichrist ( such are the popish priests acknowledged to be by those with whom we have to do ) are not the ministers of christ , have not received any power , office , or calling , from him to act in the holy things of god : but such ( as hath been abundantly demonstrated ) are the present ministers of england : therefore these have received no power , office , or calling from christ , and so are antichristian . quod erat demonstrandum . answ. of these particulars the three first are granted , and avouched as not popish , but justifiable and agreeable to orthodox antiquity . to the fifth , i return the same answer that arch-bishop whitgift gave . surely if those things which were good in the popes pontifical , and either contained in the scripture , or well used before in the ancient church , or well prescribed by general councils , be also in our pontifical , our pontifical is never the worse for having of them : for if the thing it self be good and profitable , it forceth not from whom it was taken , or of whom it was used , so that now it be rightly used . but it is most false and untrue , that the book of ordering ministers and deacons , &c now used , is word for word drawn out of the popes pontifical , being almost in no point correspondent to the same , as you might have seen , if you had compared them together . but ignorance and rashness drives you into many errours . to the sixth , though the english prelates avouch not the opinions of the popish writers , of giving grace , ex opere operato , by the sacrament of orders , as they call it , of the indelible character imprinted by the laying on of hands of the prelates , with such other of their errours , as wherein they over-magnifie the power they have in their imposition of hands , yet they plead that they do use the words joh. . , . in the ordination of priests , without blasphemy or absurdity . archbishop whitgift in his answer to the admonition , p. . of the edition . in . to use these words ( receive the holy ghost ) in ordering of ministers , which christ himself used in appointing his apostles , is no more ridiculous and blasphemous , than it is to use the words that he used in the supper : but it is blasphemy thus outragiously to speak of the words of christ. the bishop by speaking these words , doth not take upon him to give the holy ghost , no more than he doth to remit sins , when he pronounceth the remission of sins : but by speaking these words of christ , receive the holy ghost , whose sins soever ye remit , they are remitted , &c. he doth shew the principal duty of a minister , and assureth him of the assistance of gods holy spirit , if he labour in the same accordingly . mr. richard hooker eccl. polit. l. . sect . . the holy ghost may be used , to signifie not the person alone , but the gifts of the holy ghost , and the very power and authority which is given men in the church , to be ministers of holy things , is contained within the number of those gifts whereof the holy ghost is author , and therefore he which giveth this power , may say without absurdity , or folly , receive the holy ghost , such power as the spirit of christ hath endued his church withal . see edward stilling fleets irenicum , part . . c. . p. . bradshaw against fr. johnson , p. . of gatakers rejoynder to can. though in their ordination of ministers the bishops use , as a ceremonial speech , to say , receive the holy ghost ; and therein peradventure offer some force to the scripture , unto which they allude ; yet they disclaim all actual power and authority of giving the person or gifts of the holy ghost unto men . besides , i add , sith the laying on of hands is together with the designation of the person , a sign of prayer , as mat. . . mark . . and in confirmation , and the apostles use acts . . and in ordination , acts . . those words may be used prayer-wise , and freed from exception . whereto perhaps that makes , which dr. field l. . of the church , ch . , hath ; the council of carthage . canon . . provideth , that in the ordination of a presbyter , the bishop holding his hand on his head , and blessing him , all the presbyters that are present , shall hold their hands by the hand of the bishop , and the person ordained kneeling , joyns in prayer for the blessing . so dr. sparks conceived it might be understood , ch . . of unity and uniformity . ecclesiast . disc . of the french reformed churches , art . . ch . . the ordained shall kneel when they impose their hands on him . to the seventh , ordination is not alwayes at a cathedral , and may be before the congregation to whom the person is to be priest. to the eighth , that it is not alwayes so ; nor when so , popish . see before in answer to the preface , sect . . and to chap. . sect . to the nineth , to offer a persons self for ordination , may be no evil , but in some cases a duty , tim. . . isa. . . giving money for letters of ordination is no simony , but only wages to the register for his writing ; as when the register was paid for writing and sealing the instrument signifying the person to be an approved preacher . against any bishops taking money for ordition , and the registers exacting overmuch , provision is made canon ▪ eccl , . jac. and even in the council of trent , sess. . decr. de reformatione c. . to the tenth , the priests of england are not to be ordained without some title , according to cannon . even the trent council , ubi supra c. . hath made some provision about it . it is necessary that some b● ordained , though they have not a fixed flock to attend upon ministers are necessary for armies , navies , and sundry occasions , which continue but for a while . even the synod of dort made some orders about such ; and the new-england elders that imploy ministers to teach the native salvage people , do justifie the ordaining to office without a flock to attend upon , unless they would have them imployed without ordination , which were incongruous to the holy ghosts direction , act . . if itinerant preachers should have approbation , they should have ordination . to the eleventh subscription is required by the . canon . to three articles about the kings supremacy , the books of common-prayer , and ordination , and the . articles of religion ; at ordination the priest promiseth obedience to his ordinary , to follow with a glad mind and will , his godly admonitions , and submit himself to his godly judgment , by the late act unfained assent and consent is further required , but none of these by oath ; the oath of canonical obedience is only required at institutions into benefices , and is bounded with such terms as make it not intolerable ; sure it is nothing like that which is required of papists , according to the bull of pope pius the fourth , supra forma juramenti professionis fidei . to the twelfth , the practice of leaving benefices , is not strange to any churches : even from new england some have come into old england , leaving their places there ; nor are there wanting like instances of congregational men at home , perhaps for greater benefit , without consent of the people . the practices are not on any side justifiable in all : yet we read in scripture of removals of ministers from one place to another upon urgent occasions . to the thirteenth , the person ordained hath authority committed to him by the bishop to preach the word of god in the congregation where he should be lawfully appointed ; that is , by license , which is thought needful to be added besides ordination , because all persons are not alike fitted for all congregations ; the voice , and other abilities not serving for one congregation , which will for another . to the fourteenth , silencing , suspending , and degrading , may be necessary in some cases , tit. . . and . . if the laws intrust the prelates with it : so it hath been in other churches besides the popish . the abuse of it is justifiable in none . to the fifteenth , inequality is judged to have been in the elders of the primitive churches , by the inscription of the seven epistles of christ to the seven angels of the seven churches of asia ; and hath been in some sort in all churches , which have been well ordered ; and too much experience shews , that by reason of the inequality of parts and minds , it is necessary to settled order . what is undue in the popish or protestant churches , should be charged on the authors , not on the ministry it self . to the sixteenth , the vestments of english priests are not all the same with popish ; those that are , it 's denied to have the same use , and therefore not to be charged with the same superstition . to the seventeenth , even the late assembly of westminster prescribed a directory for worship and ministration . the common-prayer book , that now is urged , should not be judged the worse in those prayers or portions of scripture , which are holy and good , because they were in the popes porluis ; no more than the acknowledgment of jesus to be the son of the most high god , is the worse because the devil used it , mark . . and therefore king edward the . his plea for it was good ; and the thing not to be misliked , because used in the roman church ; who though they have many great corruptions in their doctrine and worship , yet have they retained the bible , apostles creed , many prayers from ancient fathers , and some popes who were holy men and martyrs in the first ages , which are not to be rejected , because continued by later vicious and antichristian popes . that which is insinuated , as if the common-prayer book now in use , were little different from the popes portuis or missal , is very untruly and unjustly suggested . he that shall impartially , and without prejudice compare the one with the other , shall find a vast difference in the things liable to exception . i have made some view of the roman missal of pius the . and clement the . and breviary of pius the . and urban the . and though i deny not sundry collects prayers , hymns , lessons , psalms , epistles and gospels are the same in the common-prayer book in english , with those in latine , as being either parts of holy scripture , or agreeable to it ; yet there are so many differences in fundamentals of doctrine , substantials of worship ; and in rituals , as the invocation of saints , and the opinions of merit , sacrifice for quick and dead , adoration of the host , vertue of the cross , half communion , and many more things material , that i cannot but judge that either much ignorance , or much malice it is that makes any traduce the english common-prayer book , as if it were the popish mass book , or as bad as it ; and to deterr men from joyning with those prayers and services therein , which are good ; as if it were joyning with antichrist the pope , or receiving the mark of the beast , when they can hardly be ignorant that the martyrs in queen maries dayes were burnt for it , is impudent falshood . by the parallel particulars , and such other as might be alledged , cannot be inferred an exact symmetrie betwixt the popish priests and the present ministers of england . in many particulars might there be shewn a parallelism between ministers of the congregational churches , and presbyterial , and the popish ; yet an exact symmetrie would not thence be demonstrated . few of these particulars alledged , are unjustifiable , those that are , if not excusable , yet are far from that which is the main thing charged on the papists , and disputed against learnedly , by mr. francis mason against champney , that they ordain priests to offer the unbloody sacrifice of the mass for quick and dead ; which is abhorred by the english prelates and ministers , and they are not to be charged to symbolize in office with the popish order of priests , for which this author hath produced nothing , though it were the chief thing to be proved : and therefore the minor of his syllogism is denied , and it is manifestly false which he saith , he hath abundantly demonstrated it , he having said nothing to prove it in the main . sect. . the office of bishops is not proved to be antichristian , but may be found in scripture . it follows , secondly , those that receive their power , office , and calling from a lord bishop , and act in the holy things of god , by virtue of that power , office , or calling , act in the holy things of god by virtue of an an●ichristian power , office , and calling : but the present ministers of england receive their power , office , and calling from a lord bishop , and act in the holy things of god by virtue of that power , office , and calling : therefore . the consequence of the major ( or first proposition ) is manifest , the office of a lord bishop is antichristian , therefore those that act by virtue of a power , office , or calling received from them , act by virtue of an antichristian power , office , or calling . that the office of lord bishops is antichristian , one would wonder should be denied in such a day as this , after so full a demonstration thereof by many witnesses of christ , who have wrote so clearly in this matter , as if they carried the sun-beams in their right hand , especially that it should be denied by persons of presbyterian and congregational principles ( if indeed any of them do deny it . ) to prosecute this matter to the uttermost , is not our present intendment , the intelligent reader knows where to find it done already to our hand : and if after all that hath been said , any through self love , or fear of persecution , will herein be ignorant , we might say , let them be ignorant . answ. the office , power , and calling received from a lord bishop , is all one with the office , power , and calling received from a bishop suffragan , who is not a lord ; and therefore the adding of the title lord to bishop , being only a civil title , they being made barons of the land by the king , and nothing pertaining to their ordination , but only giving them power to vote in parliament or convocation with other dignities , is only brought in here ad faciendum populum , to create envy or hatred against them in the common people or others , who are prepossessed with prejudice against them . what their office is , as bishops , may be best discerned by the book of consecration , which i gather from their promises and the prayers then used , to be the instruction of the people committed to their charge out of the holy scripture , and to teach or maintain nothing as required of necessity to eternal salvation , but that which they shall be perswaded may be concluded and proved by the same faithfully to exercise themselves in the same holy scriptures , and call upon god by prayer , for the true understanding of the same ; so as they may be able by them to teach and exhort with wholesome doctrine , and to withstand and convince the gainsayers , to be ready with all faithful diligence to banish and drive away all erroneous and strange doctrine , contrary to gods word , and both privately and openly to call upon , and encourage others to the same , to maintain and set forward as much as shall lie in them , quietness , love , and peace among men ; and such as be unquiet , disobedient , and criminous within their diocess , correct and punish according to such authority as they have by gods word , and as to them shall be committed by the ordinance of the realm , to be faithful in ordaining , sending , or laying hands upon others , to shew themselves gentle and merciful for christs sake to poor and needy people , and to all strangers destitute of help . these are their offices which they are required to perform at their consecration , whatever their practise be , it pertains not to the present point ; this is the office they undertake , and it is as much wonder to me that any sober man should assert this to be antichristian , as it is to him that some should deny it . i deny not but there are many that have termed bishops antichristian , nor have there been wanting who have said as much of persons of presbyterian and congregational principles , but such use of this term i have alwayes condemned , even when bishops were lowest , as tending to nothing but to inflame the minds of dissenters in opinion with hatred one against another : but i have not met with any sober writer , or considerate man , who in conference hath judged their office as it is undertaken by them to be antichristian . i deny not that many learned men at home and abroad have disputed , whether bishops are by divine right an order above presbyters , nor have there been wanting even of the bishops themselves who have denied it : somewhat i have read on both sides , but shall leave that controversie now , and only examine what this author saith to prove , the office of lord bishops to be antichristian . we shall , saith he , propose briefly a word or two in this matter . . that office that is not to be found in the scriptures of the institution of christ , but is contrary to express precepts and commands of his , is antichristian : but the office of lord-bishops is not to be found in the scriptures , is contrary to express precepts . therefore . answ. i think the major is not true , if universal . the office of some religious votaries is not to be found in the scriptures of the institution of christ , but is contrary to express precepts and commands of his , and yet may not be antichristian , in that special sense in which the scripture useth the word antichrist , nor as i suppose this author useth it , unless he make every sin to be antichristian . but because the minor is that which he insists on , i pass to his proof of it . the minor proposition consists of two parts . . that the office of lord-bishops is not to be found in scripture of the institution of christ : he gave indeed apostles , prophets , pastors , and teachers , ephes. . . of pastors and teachers we read rom. . , . ephes. . . bishops also , and deacons without the interposition of any other order , we find tim. . . deacons we have appointed , acts . elders , acts . . those who are bishops we find called presbyters , tit. . , . and those who are presbyters , we find termed bishops , acts . . ( gr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , bishops , ) but where the office of lord-bishops was instituted by christ , we are yet to seek : indeed some appearances of a spirit striving to ascend into this chair of wickedness , was seen in diotrephes , and others , in the apostles time , but these were the antichrists that were then gone abroad into the world . the scripture before mentioned , ephes. . . speaks as fully to the officers and offices instituted by christ , as any we meet with : fail they in their deduction of their office from hence , and they will undoubtedly prove successless in their attempts . let us then fix here a little ; mention we find here of apostles , prophets , pastors and teachers , none at all either here , or elsewhere of lord-bishops . but perhaps their office , though they are called by another name , is comprehended in some one or other of these , let that then be considered . are they prophets ? that ( in the sense of the spirit in this place ) they will not pretend to . are they pastors or teachers ? this is too great a debasement of their lordships , their parochial priests over whom they preside , are supposed to be offi●ers in that degree . what then are they ? apostles ! their successors , they do indeed boast themselves to be , and are so accounted by their abettors ( and so doth the pope himself ) but how prove they their succession from them ? if they derive it through the papacy , who sees not the invalidity thereof ? how lubricous and uncertain is that their succession ? how do they therein proclaim their shame , and yield the matter in controversie ? what clearer argument that they are antichristian , if the pope be the antichristian head over many countries , as is by the generality of protestants believed , and will not by themselves be gainsayed ? but in what sense do they pretend to be the apostles successors ? do they succeed them as christians ? that is not the thing in question , they stand or fall , in respect thereof to their own master ; herein we have no controversie with them , as not willing to judge any thing before the time . do they succeed them in respect to their off●ice ? let them prove that , and take the cause . the apostles were first immediately sent by christ ; secondly , extraordinary officers , commissionated to the preaching of the gospel throughout the nations of the world : are their lordships such ? what can be imagined more frivolous or false ? where find we any apostles after the departure of those that were immediately by christ called to that office ? did the apostles ordain any as their successors therein in any of the churches of christ ? where read we of their so doing ? yea , are any qualified with gifts as they , for the discharge of such an office ? or doth christ indeed send forth servants in any imployment , and not furnish them with gifts sutable thereunto ? credat apelles ? apella would have been printed . what more dishonorable to the lord jesus can be asserted ? it remains then , that they being neither prophets , nor apostles , nor pastors , nor teachers , that they are not to be found in the scripture of the institution of christ. nor are they dreamed of in the world of several hundreds of years after christ. clemens in his epistle to the church of corinth , takes notice of no other besides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , bishops and deacons ; which bishops he calls 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , presbyters or elders ; yea , lombard himself confesses , hos solium ministrorum duos ordines , ecclesiam primitivam habuisse , & de his solis , praeceptum apostoli nos habere , lomb. l. . sen. d. . h. . ext. the primitive church , he tells you , had no other order of ministers , than bishops ( or presbyters ) and deacons : nor did the apostles give commandment concerning any other . that their rise and occasion was from the aims and designs of men , to accommodate ecclesiastical or church affairs to the state and condition of the civil government , is ingenuously confest by one that was looked upon to be as great an admirer of , and as able a champion for diocesan , and metropolitical prelates , as any one of late dayes ; t is dr. hammond we mind , who in his dissertations about episcopacy , sect. . hath these words , his sic positis , illud statim sequitur ut ( in imperii cognitione ) in provinciâ qualibet , cum plures urbes sint , una tamen primaria , & principalis censenda erat , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ideo dicta cui itidem inferiores reliquae civitates subjiciebantur , ut civitatibus regiones , sic & inter ecclesias , & cathedras episcopales , unam semper primariam & metropoliticam fuisse : so far is the office of lord-bishops from being of the institution of christ , that their primacy and supremacy was the result of the designs and contrivements of men to accommodate the state and frame of the church , to the state and condition of the government of the nations . answ. the thing to be proved was , that the office of lord-bishops is not to be found in the scriptures ; but the whole discourse is about another thing , not the office , but superiority of order above presbyters , primacy , or supremacy of degrees among bishops , the dignity of their sees , or episcopal chairs , which is quite another thing than what he undertook to prove ; so that we may hereto apply the poets words ; — amphora coepit institui currente rotâ cur urceus exit ? which were enough to answer this whole passage ; yet there are some things to be animadverted therein : . it is true we read of diotrephes , joh. , . and of no other in scripture , that he l●ved the preeminence either over or among the church , or the brethren and strangers who were to be received , that they might be fellow-helpers to the truth , v. , . and that st. john if he came , would remember his deeds , prating against them with malicious words : and not content therew●th , neither doth he himself receive the brethren , and forbiddeth them that would , and casteth them out of the church . but this was not the usurping the superiority of order of a bishop above a presbyter , but a proud pragmatique , arrogant practice over the church , brethren , strangers , even st. john himself , together with very injurious violent proceedings in words and deeds , which are nothing to the bare challenge by dispute , or assuming by collation either of the civil or ecclesiastical power , a superiority of order above presbyters ; nor is diotrephes mentioned as one of those antichrists that were then gone abroad into the world , or any mention of antichrist in that epistle . . i know not the reason , but i take notice that in this passage reciting ephes. . . twice , he leaves out evangelists , and concludes thus , it remains then , that the bishops being neither prophets , nor apostles , nor pastors , nor teachers , that they are not to be found in the scripture of the institution of christ. which conclusion might be overthrown , if it were pleaded , that they were evangelists , and so successors to timothy , termed an evangelist , tim. . . and to titus , whose work is alledged for a pattern of bishops , tim. . . & . , . titus . . but sith that title is declined by pleaders for episcopal superiority , i let it pass . . but the term of pastors and teachers , is challenged by bishops : and what saith he against it ? this is too great a debasement of their lordships : which is a satyrical sarcasm , no proof . did any of them say so , or count it to be so ? if any did so , he shewed himself unworthy of the name , yea forgetful both of what he promised and prayed for , alluding to this very text , as his consecration , and which was expresly charged on him by the arch-bishop when he delivered him the bible . nor doth it any whit derogate from the congruity of the titles of pastors and teachers as it is given to bishops , that their parochial priests over whom they reside , are supposed to be officers in that degree , than it doth from the giving of the title of teacher to a presbyter , because assistents or coadjutors are given them in case age or infirmity hinder them from the frequent doing of that office . i omit mention of the living , to avoid imputation of flattery , but i suppose the author of this writing is not ignorant , that jewel , usher , and many more , have , when they were bishops , been truly termed pastors and teachers , and hope well of others . . but under the term of apostles they may not be reckoned . true ; they had extraordinary commission and power , yet they may be successors to them . ( dr. owen of schism , c. . sect . . professedly disclaims all thoughts of rejecting those ministers as papal and antichristian , who yet adhere to this ordination in a succession from popish bishops , being many of them eminently gifted of god , to dispense the word , and submitted unto by his people , in the administration of the ordinances , and are right worthy ministers of the gospel . ) this author denies not they succeed to them as christians . if so , they may be heard as gifted brethren , which was denied by him to the ministers chap. . but why not in office ? was the apostles office any other than what christ injoyned them mat. . , . mark . ? and therein they must have successors , though not in the extent of their commission , and in their power ; else , how should christ be with them all dayes unto the end of the world ? but , they cannot derive their succession , but through the papacy , and then they are antichristian . i answer , they may derive their succession by proving their consonancy with them in doing the same work after them , and preaching the same gospel . if any , to stop the mouths of the clamourous papists , have derived their succession from the bishops under the papacy , by proving ( as mr. francis mason did ) the consecration of the bishops after the reformation by three bishops allowed by the romanists themselves after the ancient canon , though perhaps more than needs ; yea , though they were consecrated and ordained by the pope himself and some cardinal bishops ; yet , if they were consecrated , or ordained to no other work , nor in any other manner than priests and biships are ordained and consecrated , according to the order of the church of england , they would not be antichristian . for though it be not gainsayed , but that the pope is the antichristian head over many countries ; yet it is gainsayed , that all that is derived from him , or done by him , is antichristian . i do not think it is antichristian to confess the apostles creed , though a person say he believes it , because it is received from the pope and trent council . ▪ that bishops as a superiour order or degree above presbyters were not dream'd of in the world , for several hundreds of years after christ ; i think can hardly be made good : though i will not meddle with that point , which hath been debated so much by men of greatest and most exact skill in antiquity , with whom i conceive my self no way fit to be compared : yet this i say , that the not taking notice of bishops distinct from presbyters by clement in his epistle to the corinthians , published not long since by patrick yong , is ballanced by the passages in ignatius his epistles , if they be genuine , concerning which , the reader may judge by what arch-bishop usher hath written in his edition of those epistles of ignatius . as for lombard ▪ if the primitive church , according to him , extend not beyond the dayes of the apostles , as his words import , they prove not , that the order of bishops above presbyters was not dreamt of several hundreds of years after christ. but of this i will not contend , it 's enough for my purpose , if the office be found in scripture , though not their superiority . . as for the words of dr. hammond , i find them dissert . . de episcopatu c ▪ . sect . . though not fully cited by this author , and i acknowledge , that he makes the state and frame of the churches to have been accommodated to the state and condition of the government of the nations in the empire ; yet withall , he conceives , that the reason of directing seven epistles to the seven angels of the seven churches was , because they were metropolitan or mother-churches ; and conceives this division into provinces , dioceses , and depending churches , to have been transcribed from the samplar of the jews by moses law , deut. . . and . . and therefore his words are not to be drawn to an acknowledgement of lord-bishops primacy and supremacy to have been the result of the design and contrivements of men ; much less , that the superiority of bishops above presbyters , had its rise and occasion from the aims and designs of men , to accommodate ecclesiastical affairs to the state and condition of civil government . it is added . sect. . the office of lord bishops is not contrary to express precepts of christ in the scripture . . that the office of lord bishops is contrary to express precepts of christ in the scripture ; the truth of which , he that runs may read in the ensuing scriptures , mat. . . mark . . luke . . pet. . . the english of , vos autem non sic , but ye shall not do so ; neque ut dominantes cleris , not lording it over god's clergy or heritage ; an ordinary reader may easily conclude to be inconsistent with their lordly dignities . answ. this author still shoots wide from the mark : he undertook to prove , that the office of lord-bishops is contrary to express precepts of christ in the scripture ; but he concludes against their lordly dignity ; which is no more their office , than the honour ascribed to a preacher , or reader in the university by giving them the titles of master , or doctour in divinity , is their office. the term bishops indeed implies their office appointed by christ , to have inspection over the flock ; but the term lord is only a t●tle given them by the king , when he makes them barons of the realm , which may be severed from the office of bishops , as it hath been since the reformation in england , when suffragan bishops have been made without the addition of lordship . but however this author conceives the having such titles as lords to be contrary to the express precepts , mat. . . mark . . luke . . pet. . . and he translates vos autem non sic , but ye shall not do so . but this is more than either the words or translations do permit . it is in mat. . . mark . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it shall not be so among you , or to you ; which explains best luke . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but ye not so ; that is , as our translation renders it , but ye shall not be so ; and so notes not a precept , but a prediction , and shews event , not duty , which mr. gataker thinks in his cinnus l. . c. . p. . after a discussion of several interpretations , to be the genuine meaning of christ. but granting it to be a precept , is it a precept to the apostles only , or to others ? the former hath countenance from the text : . from the occasion , the request of the mother of zebedees children . . the indignation of the ten , by reason of it . . christs calling of them to him , and no other , in matthew and mark. . their contention of st. luke . . christ's speaking to them who had been with him in his temptations . . his allotting to them a kingdom , and to sit on twelve thrones . but if it be to others , it is doubtful , whether to all christians , or only to ministers of the gospel ; and , whether it forbid simply dominion at all , or such dominion as the rulers of the gentiles exercised ; to wit , tyrannical ; or the affectation and inordinate seeking of it , not the having or the exercise of dominion . in my romanism discussed , article . sect . . p. , . i have set down ten reasons to prove , that the rule meant in those texts , is not only tyrannical dominion , but also the dominion of one apostle over another , and the affectation and inordinate seeking of that rule , which a person may have , and lawfully exercise ; and this is forbidden not only to ministers , but also to all christians : but not a christians having or exercising the office of a king or civil magistrate ; nor the apostles rule over the church of god , or ministers of a lower order : for then christians should be forbidden to exercise that office which is gods ordinance ; and the apostles did ill in practising and appointing rule over christians , yea of some ministers over others in some cases . but the rule which is forbidden , is , rule over the faith of the saints , which st. paul disclaims cor. . . and the popes usurp ( whose decrees in points of faith , and determinations of doubts of conscience , and impositions of laws binding the conscience are made unerring ) such rule over princes in secular affairs with pomp & outward grandure , like gentile princes , as the same popes usurp , rule for themselves , not for christ , rule by force , not by authority of gods word . if any lord-bishop affect , seek , take upon him , or exercise such lordship or dominion , it may be censured for antichristian , yet not his office , but his practice is to be thus censured ; and this not to be imputed to his order , but his person . but to judge so of a person barely , because of the title of lord , which was given by sarah to her husband , and propounded as meet , pet. . . or to deny any liberty to manage any civil business to an ecclesiastical person , because of those words of christ is more than i conceive they have sufficient ground to do . sure such congregational men as have been heads of colledges in the universities , or vicechancellors , or leaders of forces , have given occasion to be termed antichristian , as well as lord-bishops , if lordly dignity , and secular rule merit that appellation . as for pet. . . the annotation in the book of the annotations in english , termed the assemblies , is thus , lords ] that is , not imperiously commanding your own inventions , instead of the doctrine of the gospel ; nor carrying themselves insolently and magisterially towards gods people , john ver . . which imports not an office forbidden , but the evil practice of them whose office is allowed ; for this very exhortation is given to those who were elders among the christians , even st. peter , who entitles himself a fellow elder to them , and therefore contains not a precept forbidding the office of a lord bishop , any more than of an elder , such as st. peter was , but the abuse of the office ; nor doth it forbid lordly dignity , but lordly rule ; whereas bishops rule should be pedo non sceptro , not as princes , but as shepherds . if any prelate use such rule , it is not his office , but his practice , which is to be termed antichristian . sect. . the office of lord-bishops not from the papacy . but this author proceeds , not to multiply arguments in a matter that others have so largely debated . . that office that is derived from , and is only to be found in the papacy , is surely antichristian ( if the pope be the head of antichrist , this must not be denied . ) but the office of lord-bishops is derived from , is only to be found in the papacy . which of the reformed churches that have separated from the papacy have retained it ? did the woman in her flight into the wilderness carry it along with her ? what more absurd , then to run to the persecuting whore and beast for an office of ministry ? and what more evident demonstration of its being an antichristian office , than its entertainment only by that false antichristian church , and its utter rejection and detestation by the true spouse and witnesses of christ in all ages ? what is delivered over to us in this matter by some of them ; we shall briefly affix hereunto . hierome in his epistle to evagrius , and in his commentary on the epistle of titus , professes , that it is more by custom than by any institution of the lord , that bishops are become greater than the elders or ministers . harm . of conf. sect. . tit. . so from him do the churches of helvetia proclaim ; whence they infer ( and that truly according to act. . . ) that no man by any right can forbid , but that we should return to the old appointment of god , and rather receive that , than the custom devised by men . wickliff in his answer to king richard the second , citing mat. . . pet. . . sayes , lordship and dominion is plainly forbidden to the apostles , and darest thou then usurp the same ? if thou wilt be a lord , thou shalt lose thy apostleship , &c. the university of geneva say , ( theses genev. . ) these functions following , we hold to be altogether false , and destitute of all true foundation , viz. the primacy of the bishop of rome over all churches ; the cardinalship , patriarchship , archiepiscopalship , and briefly the whole degree of lord bishops over their fellow elders . marlorat in his exposition on the revel . chap. . . sayes , that archbishops , deans , &c. are in office under antichrist ; yea upon chap. . that they are the tails of antichrist . beza saith , they could not be brought into the church , until they had driven him out , who is the only master , christ : and , there is neither holy scripture , nor council , nor antient doctors , which ever did know such monsters , beza's confess . art. . . the noble antient oldcastle , lord cobham saith , that the whole episcopal degree of lord bishops over their fellow elders is altogether false and destitute of all true foundation — yea , that all other functions and offices besides priests and deacons are unlawful , as being sects devised by men destitute of all true foundation . to these we might add honest bale upon the revelation , viz. chap. . where he saith , canterbury and york are the beastly antichrist's metropolitans , and primates ; and upon chap. . that archbishop , diocesan , archdeacon , dean , prebend , doctors , parson , vicar , &c. are very names of blasphemy : for offices they are not appointed by the holy ghost , nor yet mentioned in the scripture . cartwright sayes of them , that their functions are not in the word of god , but of the earth , new devised ministries , and such as can do no good : that their office is the neck of the popish hierarchy , come out of the bottomless pit of hell. fenner proclaims them to be no natural members of the body of christs church , as being of humane addition , not born with her , nor grown up with her from the cradle . the french and belgick confession sayes , that they pass not a rush for them . the church of geneva , that the hierarchie is devilish confusion , stablished ( as it were ) in despight of god , and to the mocking and reproach of all christian religion . the seekers of reformation in q. elizabeths time spake fully hereunto , [ adm. to parl. ] we have an antichristian ▪ and popish ordering of priests , strange from gods word , never heard of in the primitive church , taken out of the popes shop , to the destruction of gods kingdom — the names and offices of archbishops , archdeacons , lord bishops , &c. are , together with their government , drawn out of the popes shop , antichristian , devilish , and contrary to the scriptures : parsons , vicars , parish-priests , are birds of the same feather : to whom might be added many others . answ. . though the pope in these later ages , especially since boniface the third , obtained of phocas the emperor , more than years after christ , that rome , the seat of blessed peter the apostle , which is the head of all churches , should be both so called and accounted of all , as platina speaks , and as onuphrius addes , had the title of universal bishop conferred on him ; and it was added , that the name of pope , which was determined to be the more excellent of all episcopal terms , the roman bishops should alone retain it , whereas before it was common to all bishops , hath been judged deservedly the head of antichrist , which gregory the great bishop of rome , had not long before , lib. . indict . . epist. . made antichristian , and the usurper a forerunner of antichrist : yet the bishops of rome , in the first ages , were not so accounted , and therefore , it follows not , though the later popes be the head of antichrist , that the office that is derived from , and is only to be found in the papacy , is surely antichristian ; there having been offices perhaps derived from good popes , and continued only in the church of rome , which deserve not that censure , but approbation rather . nor is it necessary that every thing derived from popes , since they have been the head of antichrist , and continued only in the papacy , should be antichristian : the head of antichrist may institute something that is not antichristian . . it is not true , that the office of lord bishops is derived from , and is only to be found in the papacy . it is manifest in the first nicene council , canon . that then and before were patriarchs , metropolitan bishops , and lord bishops with their office ; and that council was in the fourth century , about the year . and that in the greek , eastern , russian churches , the same office is continued . and therefore though no other of the reformed churches had retained that office , besides the english , yet there would be no need for the bishops of england to run to the persecuting whore and beast , for an office of ministery . but it is also pleaded , that the lutheran churches reformed , that have separated from the papacie in germany , denmark , swethland , have retained the same office under the name of superintendents , which is the same in latine , with bishops in greek ; and that it is false , that the true spouse and witnesses of christ have in all ages utterly rejected the office of lord bishops , and that it hath its entertainment only by that false antichristian church . yea , it is manifest by the many epistles written to the english prelates , by the reception at the synod of dort , and innumerable other wayes , that there hath been no such rejection or detestation either by any church reformed , or eminent writers of them , except those of the separation , who have been also averse from the discipline of the protestant reformed churches beyond sea , and have given opprobrious language to , and of them , as well as the english. as for the testimonies here cited , some of them , as the speeches of hierome , the helvetian confession of the lord cobham , are only about the superiority of bishops above presbyters , not of their office ; most of them , as that of wickliffe used before by bernard in his tract to pope eugenius , those of the university and church of geneva ; beza's , the belgick , french confessions , marlorat , bale , are against the popish hierarchy ; those of cartwright , fenner , and authors of the admonition , were speeches of adversaries , which in no court pass for testimonies ; to which arch-bishop whitgift and others have given answers long since . it is added : sect. . the ordination of bishops , is also of presbyters . object . one stone of offence must be removed out of our way ere we pass on further ; it is this : though lord bishops are antichristian , yet it doth not follow , that the office and ministry derived from them is so : for they are also presbyters , and ordain as presbyters . answ. give me leave to say , that were not men resolved to say any thing , that they might be thought to have somewhat to say , we had not heard of this objection . for , . that they act in the capacity of presbyters in the matter of ordination , is false . ( . ) contrary to their own avowed principles ; their lordships think it too great a debasement , to be degraded from their lordly dignity to so mean an office. ( . ) contrary to the known law of the land , by which they receive power to act therein ; in which they are known , and owned only in the capacity of lord bishops . ( . ) contrary to their late practice , whereby they have sufficiently declared the nullity of a ministerial office , received from the hands of a presbytery , in thrusting out of doors several hundreds of ministers so ordained . strange ! that it should be pleaded they act as presbyters in the matter of ordination , and yet they themselves judge a presbyterian ordination invalid . but , . what if this should be granted ? it would avail nothing , except it can be proved , that they are , and act as presbyters of the institution of christ , which ( these being only in a particular instituted church of christ ) will never be to the worlds end . thus far of the third argument . answ. 't is true , to some that have either renounced episcopal ordination as antichristian , or refused to hear ministers ordained by bishops , as acting by virtue of antichristian calling , it hath been told , that the bishops were first presbyters , and ordained presbyters together with presbyters ; and some of them that held that a bishop and a presbyter were not superiour in order , but in degree , did ordain as presbyters ; and that therefore , if the ordination of presbyters be not antichristian , the ministers should retain their ordination by bishops , and the people hear them , though that were yielded , that lord bishops office were antichristian . now nothing is here replied to the allegation , that bishops ordain with presbyters ; the bishop with the priests present are to lay their hands on the ordained , according to the book of ordination : nor to this , that some of the bishops have acknowledged episcopacy not to be an order above presbytery ; nor to this , that though the bishop imposing hands , do act as of superiour order , yet being a presbyter , his act is valid , as he that conveighs a thing as conceiving himself as heir , and executor , if he be not heir ; yet if he be only executor , and by that hath power to conveigh it , the grant is good . but he sayes , . it is false they ordain as presbyters : it is contrary to their principles . answ. whether it be so in all is uncertain , nor do i know how this author can prove it , unless they did declare it , which is more than i have learned . . it is contrary to the known law of the land. answ. . it is not true , that the bishops do receive power by the law to act in ordination , in it are known , and owned only in the capacity of lord bishops : for the ordination of suffragan bishops , who are not lords , is valid by law. . the law which gives power to act , ties not bishops to think themselves of a superiour order to presbyters , nor to act with such an intention , or under such a notion . . they have nullified presbyterian ordination , and required re-ordination by a bishop . answ. they do not nullifie ordination by a presbyterie in foreign churches ; but in england perhaps , because the laws require episcopal ordination ; and it is conceived necessary to avoid schism , or some confusion . . however those presbyters are not of the institution of christ , these being only in a particular instituted church of christ. answ. if this be held , no presbyters in any church , but congregational , are of christs institution ; and then all the presbyters of the french , dutch , and other churches under presbyterial government , are excluded from being of christs institution , as well as these ordained by bishops of the church of england ; and then they by his argument are no more to be heard than these ▪ and so separation avowed from all churches , even protestant , besides those of their own way , which is the pernicious errour to which this arguing tends . but till it be proved i count his dictates fit to be rejected , and proceed to the next chapter . chap. . arg. . sect. . they that deny not christs offices doctrinally , may be heard thus it is argued : those that oppugn or deny any of the offices of jesus christ , are not to be heard , but separated from : but the present ministers of england oppugn and deny some of the offices of jesus christ : therefore . before we come to clear the several parts of this argument , we shall crave liberty briefly to premise . . that there is a two-fold denying or oppugning of the offices of christ , verbal and professional . such was and is that of the jews , the papists are not guilty hereof ; in words they own , preach up , plead for all the offices of christ as much as any : so do all the present ministers of england : this is not then the denial of the offices of christ we implead them as guilty of . . real and actual , when persons do that which enwraps in the bowels of it , an impugning and denial of the offices of christ. this the romish synagogue are eminently guilty of : so are the present ministers of england , as shall ( we doubt not ) be clearly demonstrated in its proper place . secondly , that a verbal professional acknowledgment of the offices of christ is nothing , when contradicted in practice : this the apostle avowedly asserts , in respect of the knowledge of god , tit. . . they profess they know god , but in works they deny him ; and may congruously enough be applyed to the matter in hand . this , as applied to the combination and synagogue of rome , some of themselves have long since ackowledged , whilest they profess christ to be king , and submit not to the laws he hath prescribed in his word , they make him an idol and put a scepter of reed in his hand : so some of their own . but i interrogate , what if a man should with the greatest earnestness profess , and in the height of a confident spirit averr , that he were born again of god , washed , sanctified in the blood of christ , and by the spirit of the lord , that he did receive and own christ as his king and law-giver , when i see this man at the same time walking in a way of rebellion against christ , in open contempt and defiance of his laws and government subjecting to the yoak of other lords and law-givers ; shall hi● plea be admitted ? surely no , quid verba audiam , cum facta videam . 't is long since decided by christ , that false prophets are to be descried , not by their words ( they may speak like , angels ; cry , hail master , kiss him , yet be false prophets , yea , judasses to him ) but by their fruits : let them profess a thousand times over , that they own all the offices of christ , if they are the mean while found in the practice of those things that are inconsistent with the truth of such a profession , they are really deniers and opposers of the offices of christ. this is that then we affirm in this matter . . that those that do really oppose any of the offices of christ , are not to be heard , but separated from : this carrying a brightness along with it , that is sufficient to convince all , except such , whose eyes the god of this world hath blinded : that its original is from god , we shall take for granted will not be denied by a professing enlightned people , though otherwise it were easie to multiply arguments for its demonstration . . to oppose christ in any of his offices , bespeaks such as are guilty thereof to be antichrists , . joh. . . and . , . joh. . ( of the same mind with us herein , is learned beza upon the forecited scriptures ) and none will surely be so inconsiderate ( not to say worse ) as to assert , it is lawful to attend upon the ministry of antichrist . . to hear such , is to strengthen and encourage them in that their denial of , and opposition unto the offices of christ ; and thereby become partakers with them in their sin : the thought of which , cannot but be grievous to the poor lambs of christ. but this will not be denied . answ. i allow the distinction of verbal and real oppugning the offices of christ : but it is false , that the papists are not guilty of a verbal denying of the offices of christ , and that in words they own , preach up , and plead for all the offices of christ as much as any . for though they do acknowledge christ to be king , priest , and prophet , yet their doctrine , and not their practice only , doth overthrow all the offices of christ. as he that ascribes kingly power to a subject , doth make another king than the right king , and so doth u●king him ; and as he that ascribes to a creature that which is proper to god , doth set up another god , and so ungod the true god , who can no more be multiplied than the heavens can bear two suns ; even so it is with the papists , while they assert , that traditions unwritten are to be received with alike affection of piety and reverence as the written gospel , when the pope ascertains them that he is infallible , that he is judge of controversies , can determine what is to be held as an article of faith unerringly , can make laws to bind the conscience by vertue of his authority , without the case of scandal and contempt ; can dispense with gods laws , lawful oaths , incestuous marriages prohibited by god ; by his indulgences can forgive sins authoritatively and absolutely , that ascribe to every priest a power to offer in the mass a propitiatory unbloody sacrifice for the quick and dead , to forgive sins in the sacrament of penance , to enjoyn laborious works of penance , which shall be satisfactious to god for sins , while they make saints deceased , and angels mediatours between god and man by their merits and agency with god for us ; they ascribe to creatures the power proper to christs offices , and so do make other prophets and priests to officiate as christ ; they do verbally deny the offices of christ , and not in words own , preach up , and plead for all the offices of christ as much as any , as this author most untruly suggests ; but do doctrinally evacuate them all , of which no such thing can be charged on the present ministers of england , nor is at all demonstrated by this author . . i grant , that a verbal professional acknowledgment of the offices of christ , when contradicted by practice is nothing to the salvation of the person so professing , in the sense in which st. paul saith cor. . though i have the gift of prophecie , and understand all mysteries , and all knowledge ; and though i have all faith , so that i could remove mountains , and have no charity , i am nothing , that is , as v. . it profiteth me nothing ; and no further are to be drawn the words of the apostle , tit. . . than that which is expressed in the text , that to such persons nothing is pure but their minds and consciences are defiled ; and so to the interrogation i answer , such a ones plea shall not be admitted before god , or in an ecclesiastical censure , or a private judgment , so as that he shall have the approbation or benefit of a real subject to christ ; yet all this doth not prove that his doctrine impugnes the offices of christ , or that his doctrine may not be heard to the profit of the hearers . j. owen of the duty of pastors , p. . god oftentimes out of his care for his flock , bestows gifts on some , for the benefit of others , on whom he will bestow no graces for the benefit of their own souls . p. . people must beware of false prophets . how shall they do this , but by trying their doctrine by the rule . nor is it true that christ hath decided the question as he would have it ; as if christ had said that false prophets are to be descried by their virtous life , not by their doctrine : he saith indeed , they are known by their fruits , but that these fruits are only their evil life , he saith not . no where is any one said to be a false prophet , that doth not take upon him to prophesie ; he may be a bad man , that teacheth no false doctrine , but not a false prophet . judas was a wicked man , a devil , but no where termed a false prophet ; yea he was one of those that christ sent to preach , and one of those of whom he saith , mat. . . he that receiveth you , receiveth me ; and he that receiveth me , receiveth him that sent me . in the old testament , jer. . . & . , , , . micah . . false prophets are said to be such as prophesied lyes in gods name and he sent them not ; that they taught lying divinations , the visions of their own heart , they cried peace when there was no peace , they attempted to draw them after other gods , deut. . . in the new testament , pet. . there were false prophets among the people , even as there shall be false teachers among you , who privily shall bring in damnable heresies denying the lord that bought them , joh. . . many false prophets are gone out into the world , and they are said to be such as confess not that jesus christ is come in the flesh , that they speak of the world , v. , . that is true which mr. john ball in his trial of the grounds of separation , ch . . pag. . hath , if we look into the scriptures of the old and new testament , we shall never find the prophets called true or false in respect of their outward calling , ( i add , or only their vitious lives ) but in respect of their doctrine . yea , though a man should by his doctrine deny the offices of christ only by remote consequence ; as , by teaching something as appointed by christ , which was not ; or denying something to be instituted by christ , which was so appointed ; yet should he not be accounted a false prophet , but an erring man , who while he layes the foundation rightly , yet through ignorance , or inadverrencie builds hay and stubble thereon , as the apostle speaks , cor. . . and therefore that which this author doth so confidently pronounce , as if it were as clear as the sun , and denied by none , but those whose eyes the god of this world hath blinded , [ that those that do really ( that is in their practice , though not in their preaching ) oppose any of the offices of christ , are not to be heard ( no not when they preach saving truths of the gospel ) but separated from , ( not only in respect of private or church communion in the lords supper or prayers , but in attending on the ministry of the word delivered by them ) which is his major proposition ] is so far from being light , that it seems rather to me , some of that smoak of the bottomless pit , wh●ch the god of this world raiseth , to hinder many poor souls from hearing that word , wherein the light of the glorious gospel of christ the image of god doth shine unto men . nor were not professing enlightned people , as he calls them , held by prejudice , or guided by affection more than by judgment , could they grant this proposition . for if according to this authors dictates , he that really , that is , in heart or practice opposeth any of the offices of christ , is to be separated from : then every one who disobeys his commands , believes not his words , that is an hypocrite ; yea , that sins or errs in any thing christ hath revealed or commanded , is to be separated from , and not to be heard ; and so all must turn seekers or quakers , if they do not meet with a teacher who is perfect without sin or errour . as for what this author saith for demonstration of it , that such are antichrists , joh. . . and . , . joh. . and that beza is of the same mind , and that they that hear them strengthen their opposition unto the offices of christ , and partake with them in their sin , is false . for neither doth st. john , nor beza in his annotations count any for antichrists there meant , but such as by their doctrine oppugne christs nature or office , which he terms the false doctrine of the antichrists ; nor is he at all guilty of the sins of the minister who is evil in his life , by hearing him preach truth ; yea , though he preach some errours , and it be probable , that when he hears him , he shall hear some errour preached by him , unless some other way he abet his sin or errour , or omit his duty in seeking to amend him . but let us attend the proof of his minor . sect . every not hearkning to christs order , is not a denial of his office. 't is the second thing may sound harsh in the ears of some ( as did some sayings of christ , but if truth , where god shall give the seeing eye , and hearing ear , 't will be received , ) viz. . that the present ministers of england do oppose and deny some of the offices of christ , viz. his kingly and prophetical office , which we come to the proof of . arg. . those that hearken not to the revelation christ hath made , and as supreme lord and law-giver , hath enjoyned to be observed touching the orders and ordinances of his house , deny the prophetical and kingly office of christ , deut. . . acts . . isa. . . but the present ministers of england hearken and conform not to the revelation christ hath made touching the orders and ordinances of his house : therefore . answ. though i doubt not but i could retort this argument upon this authour , whom by sundry passages in this book i judge to be one that hearkens not to the revelation christ hath made , and as supreme lord and law-giver hath enjoyned to be observed touching the order and ordinance of his house , even that most express , mat. . . mark . , . one of the principles of the doctrine of christ , and part of the foundation , heb. . , . yet i shall wave that , and answer directly by denying the major ; of which i give these reasons . . because denial , is more than not hearkning to ; the one is by positive contradiction , the other may be only by omission . . the not hearkning may be out of ignorance , incapacity to understand , dulness , slothfulness , fearfulness , mistakes , prevalency of temptation without any enmity of heart , habitual stubbornness , or willful gainsaying , which are requisite to a plain denial of the kingly and prophetical office of christ. . there may be sundry orders of his house revealed by christ , which are controverted , whether they be such or no ; there may be some acknowledged to be orders of his house , yet thought not of such moment as that the peace of the church should be broken by contending for them ; or judged not perpetual , but temporary ; or not binding the ministers to observe , till the magistrate reform ; as in the case of putting down images , or conceiving in cases of necessity , or for avoiding of scandal , they may not hearken to them ; as in davids eating the shew-bread , the apostle pauls not hearkning to the order of discontinuing circumcision , and a jewish vow and offering ; in these , and perhaps more cases a person may not hearken to the revelation christ hath made , and as supreme lord and law-giver hath enjoyned to be observed touching the orders and ordinances of his house , and yet be so far from denying the prophetical and kingly office of christ , that he may be sound in the faith , and a zealous and faithful maintainer of them , by holding forth the truth of the gospel unto the death . and therefore i take the major proposition of this argument to be manifestly false , which he seems by not proving to take for manifest truth . sect. . it is not proved , that christs soveraign authority is rejected by the present ministers . but he goes on thus : 't is the minor ( or second proposition ) that in the thoughts of some is capable of a denial , but the verity thereof shines forth as the sun in its brightness , in the review of the orders and ordinances of the house of christ appointed by himself ; and the present frame and deportment of the present ministers of england with respect thereunto : which of them have they not made void by their traditions ? this is that which christ hath said , . that all power for the calling , institution , order , and government of his church , is invested solely in him , as the alone lord , soveraign ruler , and head thereof , mat. . . tim. . , . joh. . . acts . . and . . 't is upon this foot of account that christ chargeth his disciples not to be called of men rabbi , nor to call any father , ( viz. not to impose their authority upon any , or suffer themselves to be imposed upon by any in the matters of their god ) mat. . , , . because one is their master and lord ( viz. christ. ) hence also the apostles lay the weight of their exhortations upon the commandment of christ , cor. . . and . . proclaim all to be accursed that preach any other gospel , gal. . . ( yea though angels from heaven , should they live and speak as such ) charge those to whom they write not to receive any into their houses that bring any other doctrine , ( much more not to receive them as their teachers ) joh. . yea , the spirit of the lord in the close of the last revelation of his will , it pleased this great king and law-giver in such a way to give forth , testifies that if any man shall add unto these things , the lord shall add unto him the plagues that are written in his book , rev. . . do the present ministers of england conform unto this great institution ? in words indeed they do so . but what meaneth the bleating of the sheep , and lowing of the oxen in our ears ? do they not own other lords , heads , and governours , that have a law-making power , and would enforce the consciences of the free-born subjects of christ over his churches besides him ? what doth this less than evidently proclaim their disobedience and rebellion ( which is as the sin of witchcraft ) against the king of kings , and the rejection of his scepter and soveraign authority over them ! but of this more hereafter . answ. it is no strange thing to find in this author high charges backed only with confident assertions , and no proofs ; so that men , comparing the one with the other , may think he wrote his dreams , rather than meditations . for what are we to think otherwise when we read such passages as these : the verity of his minor proposition shines forth as the sun in his brightness ? which is no more than is to be said of the first universal indubitable principles of the light of nature or reason , which are indisputable ; and yet he saith , in the thoughts of some it is capable of a denial : and when he should prove it so clear , in stead of an argument , proves all with interrogations , which if the reader deny , he is put to a stand . but to shew the vanity of his arguings to his question , which of the orders and ordinances of the house of christ appointed by himself , have not the present ministers of england ( he means all , even the best of them , as his words , ch ▪ . and arguings against them indiscriminatim do evince , ) have they not made void by their traditions ? i answer by another question , which of them have they so made void ? sure the ordinances of searching the scriptures , hearing the word , praying to the father in the name of christ , believing on the son , with many more ( which are the chief orders and ordinances of the house of christ , appointed by himself ) have not been made void by the traditions of the ministers of england that now are , at least not by all or the best of them , that i know or hear of . but he imagines he can prove it by an induction of particulars , of which he names only seven ; though to make his induction full ( without which it is no good argument ) he should have reckoned seven times seven . but perhaps he thinks if he can make good the charge in these seven , it will be without question his charge is true of the rest . let us then view each of these in order , and see how well he hath acquitted himself therein . the first of these orders or ordinances of christ is , that all power for the calling , institution , order and government of his church , is invested solely in him as the alone lord , soveraign ruler , and head thereof . which i grant as a truth , though i assent not to his paraphrase on mat. . , , . as if christ did forbid the apostles to impose their authority upon any in the matters of their god ; which they did , act . , . but how comes this to be an order , ordinance , institution of the house of christ appointed by himself ? such orders i took to be precepts of christ to us , but this seems to be gods gift to him , mat. . . joh. . . and . , , . and . . acts . . and . . ephes. . . &c. no precept to us . but let it imply a precept to us ; do not the present ministers of england conform to it ? he grants , they do so in words , but not in deeds . why so ? they own other lords that have a law●making power , and would enforce the consciences of the free-born subjects of christ over his churches , besides him ; and thereby proclaim their disobedience and rebellion ( which is as the sin of witchcraft ) against the king of kings , and their rejection of his scepter and soveraign authority over them . this is a high charge , and if true would unchristen them , but i see no proof of it , so that i take this to be only a piece of oratory , such as tertullus used against st. paul , acts . which is so much the more venomous in that it is in generalibus without instancing in particulars , which is the sign of a diabolical calumniatour . yet i shall not let it pass . the lords he means are either the king or the bishops . the king is owned by the ministers in the oath of supremacie , the bishops in the promise at their ordination , wherein they promise the lord being their helper , to obey reverently their ordinary , and other ministers , unto whom is committed the charge and government over them ; following with a glad mind and will their godly admonitions , and submitting themselves to their godly judgements . the law-making power of the king is with the parliament , of the bishops in the convocation , the enforcing of the conscience ( though it be an uncouth phrase ▪ as supposing the conscience can be enforced by man , which is impossible ) is meant of causative compulsion , by enjoyning men to act or speak according to such statutes or canons as are imposed on them under certain penalties . how many , and which of these acts or speeches are rebellion and rejection of christs authority , is to be demonstrated ; and not persons of place and authority to be thus criminated after the manner of railers and scolds . and sure it is not easie to prove , that though such acts and speeches were imagined to be such rebellion ; yet that they are so in them , unless it could be proved they did them presumptuously 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with a proud heart and an high hand , which , if this author hath not learned the maxime calumniare audacter , aliquid haerebit , methinks he should tremble to attempt . but sith he tells us of this more hereafter , i intend to observe his motion . he goes on . sect. . ministers oppose not the will of christ by not joyning in the separation pleaded for . . saith he , this great prophet and king hath also revealed , and proclaimed , that 't is his will , that those whom he hath called by his word , should separate from the world , walk together in particular societies and churches , having given up themselves to the lord , and one another , according to the will of god , for their mutual edification and comfort in the lord. the truth of this soveraign institution of christ , he that runs may read in the scriptures hereunto annexed , cor. . . and . . cor. . . rev. . . joh. . . and . . acts . . and . . phil. . . acts . . and . . cor. . . with many more . in the proof of this we might be copious , but that we study brevity : the diligent reader knows where to find this theam at large , treated of by learned ainsworth , bartlet , cotton , rogers , &c. how do the ministers of england acquit themselves , in respect of this solemn appointment of the lord ? alass ! who sees not that they are , in their practice , at open defiance herewith , have it in derision and contempt , making no difference betwixt the holy , and prophane ; admitting persons led captive by the devil at his will , that openly blaspheme the spirit of the lord , and deride its effectual operation in the consciences of men into their society ? are any too vile ( except such as truly fear god ▪ and desire to press after holiness ) to be admitted by them into their communion ? is not their church-state ( so unlike is it to the institution of christ ) a very babel , a den of dragons , and hold of unclean beasts ? answ. this crimination proceeds on these suppositions . . that christians should separate from the parish assemblies , and joyn together in the congregational way by church-covenant , which they call separating from the world. . that ministers are bound to reject , and not to admit to the communion those that are profane , and to admit only real saints in the judgment of charity , and that by opposing the way of separation , and promiscuous admission to the communion , they infringe the solemn appointment of the lord. for my part having read somewhat in mr. ainsworths and mr. cottons writings , both concerning the way of the separatists in the low-countries , and the independents in new-england , i do not either in the scriptures here alledged find such a solemn appointment of christ , either that private persons , or ministers are to make such a separation , as these authors do press upon the consciences of others : nor hath experience either in the low-countries , or old or new-england given such encouragement to sober minded christians , as to engage them in that way , but rather many divisions , declinings into errour , and other evils , have given too much cause for men to doubt , whether it were ever a plant of gods planting . it is granted that it is the will of christ , that those whom he hath called by his word should separate from the world ; and this they are to do in respect of their worship , so as not to have communion with them therein : and this i doubt not may be proved from cor. . . and some other of the texts alledged . but then by the world , are meant professed infidels , such as denied the lord jesus and worshipped idols ; or at least such as were professed unbelievers , as john . . and . . acts . . and . . the jews were , and yet the apostles did not refuse to go to the temple to pray , nor to go into their synagogues , or to take a vow and purifie themselves at the temple , notwithstanding the corruptions of their priests , service , and people , and their open opposition to the christian faith. but that ever it was the will of christ that christians should separate from the true worship of god , and the professors of true faith in christ , because of either known evil in the coversation of those present , or only suspected , or reported , is without all colour of precept or example in the holy scripture . it is true , the people of god are invited , rev. . . to go out of babylon : but that their going out is by separation from the service of god not idolatrous , or from a church not heretical , by reason of some supposed or real corruption , or disorder , or defect in government , service , members , or ministry , is so far from the meaning of the text , that it needs no other refutation , but the looking into the text and comparing it with the foregoing chapter . of withdrawing from such as walk disorderly , thess. . . enough hath been said before , ch . . sect ▪ . nor is it made any where the ministers office to make such separation as the separatists require . cor. . . is not spoken of ministers as belonging to their office to judge them that are within ; or if it be , yet the putting away , v. . is not made his act ; and how it is to be done , is best discerned by v. . christians are to walk together in societies or churches , for their mutual edification and comfort in the lord : and this they are no doubt bound to do , as occasion is , towards all christians . and so much phil. . . acts . . and . . may prove : but that they are to conjoyn in separated churches by the so termed church covenant , as if they were not members of other churches , nor to joyn in prayer , praise of god , hearing , breaking bread , but with either that one church or company , to which they have associated themselves , or those that are of the same way of church-order , is neither proved from those texts , or cor. . . ( which mentions no such church-covenant , as it is alledged for ) nor any other . and therefore the imputations here used to the ministers and churches without distinction , are so unsavoury , and from such an intemperate spirit , that i had rather cover them , than rake in such a dunghil . and i think respect to the fraternity this author seems to be of , should have made him wary in charging the ministers with these things , lest some of his adversaries should throw as much dirt on the face of the separated churches out of bayly's disswasive , edwards gangraena , welds history of antimonianism , yea , the preface to their declaration , octob. . . besides what particular persons know by experience , and the relations of the miscarriages of the ancient separatists would furnish them withal ; sect. . election and excommunication by the church is not christs institution . yet this author cannot hold , but on he goes . . saith he , that he hath entrusted them , so called and united together , with power , and given them rules for the due and right exerting thereof , for the carrying on the worship of his house , to chuse officers over them to act in the holy things of god , for and to them ( of which more shall be spoken in its proper place ) to admit members , to excommunicate offenders , &c. all which we find shining forth in brightness in the ensuing scriptures , act. . . and . , . and . . cor. . . mat. . . cor. . . do the present ministers of england conform unto this institution of christ ? nothing less : is there any thing like this in the whole oeconomie invented and practised by them ? do they not to the utmost of their power , labour to break this bond of christ asunder , cast away this cord from them by stirring up the magistrate to persecute by fines , imprisonments , banishment , &c. the precious people of the lord , that desire to be found in the practice of this law of christ , branding them with the odious names of phanaticks , sectaries , schismaticks , &c. answ. the election , acts . . was of an apostle , and that by lot and contains no law or institution of christ , which we are tied to follow . of the impertinent allegation of acts . , . and . . enough hath been said before , ch . . sect . . the election cor. , . was of a person not to be a pastor to themselves , but to travel with st. paul about the contribution for the poor saints ; and though it be a good precedent for the like occasion , yet was but a fact , not a precept , law , or institution of christ , necessary to be observed at all times , much less binding as a perpetual rule in election of pastors or teachers . no other excommunication is expressed , mat. . . but what is permitted to the injured person , of which more may be seen in the answer to this authors preface , sect. . the delivery to satan cor. . . is argued by peter moulin in his vates , lib. . c. . to have been more then our ordinary excommunication , to wit , the permitting satan to cruciate the body of the person that sinned ; which no church now hath power to do , nor indeed was the church then to do it , but the apostle by his power apostolical as having power over unclean spirits , though absent , yet with the power of our lord jesus christ in their presence when gathered together ( which being in the greek in the genitive case absolutely put , notes not their acting but presence ) the apostles determined to do it ; and therefore contains no institution of christ , which ministers are to practice . what else is charged upon the ministers , it concerns them who are guilty to answer ; i know he cannot justly charge all with it . it follows . sect. . no contempt of the authority of christ is in the church of england by setting up officers and offices . . that the officers of his appointment are onely such as these ; pastors , teachers , elders , deacons , widows , or helpers : who as they are in one particular congregation , so they have not any lordship , or lordly authority over each other , being all brethren , ephes. . . rom. . . and . . cor. . . phil. . . pet. . , , . act. . . and . . and . . and . , . tim. . chap. and . , , . this law of christ so clearly revealed in the scripture , they are so far from subjecting to , that they have neither the name nor thing required by him therein . see up other officers and offices , as if in open contempt and defiance of his authority ; of which it may righteously be said , he did at no time command them , neither did it ever enter into his heart so to do . answ. it is true , that those whom he calls officers , are mentioned in some or other of those texts he cites , and are some of them termed gifts given by god or christ , in , or to , or for his church or body : but there are also other , as apostles and prophets , mentioned in some of the texts as given also by god ; and therefore those whom he reckons are not the only officers of his appointment , nor all of them to be in one congregation . apostles were certainly to go up and down , and though they had not lordship or lordly authority over others , yet had they authority , preeminence , and some kind of superiority over others , and if not in the same measure , yet some superiority is still allotted to pastors over deacons , which are acknowledged to be officers to be still continued in the church : nor is it unlikely , that those elders who were worthy of double honour , tim. . . had some preeminence above the rest ; nor doth the relation of brotherhood hinder , but that though in respect of the common faith all of them are equal , yet some may have some power or office committed to them , which others have not , and so may have authority over them . that some offices or services may be added to those mentioned , may be gathered from cor. . . whether all the officers or offices be rightly ordered in the church of england , is not our present enquiry . much hath been said before in answer to the second and third chapters of this writing , which need not be here repeated . that the present ministers of england , have neither name nor thing required by christ in this law , is notoriously false ; the names of pastors , teachers , or doctors , deacons , or ministers , and the office of preaching the gospel , continues therein , both in the name and thing . that they have set up other officers and offices , as if in open contempt and defiance of christs authority , cannot be said but very unrighteously ; nor do the alterations or additions , any more prove it , then the setting up catechists , or expositors , or lecturers in the primitive or later times , proves open defiance and contempt of christs authority . he goes on in the same vein of crimination thus : sect. . election of ministers by the common suffrage of the church is not proved to be christs appointment . . that these officers be chosen by the common suffrage of the church of christ , and solemnly set apart by fasting and prayer , this is evidently comprised in the ensuing scriptures ▪ act. . . and , , , , . and . . and . , . and . , . in conformity whereunto , we find the saints for many centuries of years after christ , in the peaceable possession of this their priviledge and right . clemens in his epistle to the church of corinth , p , . saith , our apostles also knew by our lord jesus christ , that contention will be about the name of episcopal charge : therefore for this reason , having received a full predetermination , they constituted such as were forenominated ; and in their instructive distribution delivered , that if they were negligent , other approved men should receive their ministration , being ordained by them , or in the mean time by other choice men , all the church consenting thereunto . yea afterwards , let some one among you , ingenious , merciful , filled with love speak ; if through me faction , and contention , schisms , i will depart : of which if you are willing , i return , and will do the things appointed by the multitude . wherein he fully asserts the priviledge of the church or people of christ , we are pleading for : and afterwards during the raign of antichrist , christ hath not left himself without a witness , nor his people without champions to plead their right in this matter . to instance but in a few : that lively witness of christ martin luther loudly proclaims , that the voice of the people ought not to be severed from the chusing of ecclesiastical persons . and long before him , cyprian ( who lived about years after christ ) sayes , plebs obsequens , &c. the people that obey the commands of god , and fear him , ought to separate themselves from a wicked pastor , seeing the people themselves chiefly , have either power to chuse pastors that are worthy , or to refuse those that be unworthy , cypr. epist. . and tells us plainly , that this is bottomed upon the authority of god : that that is a just and lawful ordination which is tryed by the judgment and voice of all , viz. that fear and obey god. of the same mind , long after , was francis lambard , the companion of luther in germany , in the preface of his book , intituled , the sum of christianity ; who sayes , verily every parish ought to have his proper bishop , the which should be chosen by the people , and confirmed by the commonalty of every parish , who if they swerve one jot or tittle from the doctrine of the gospel of the kingdom , ought to be deposed by the people , and others more fit , to be elected by them . and in chap. . of the said book , he professes , that 't is the most gievous crime , and by no means to be suffered , that many children of perdition do deprive the people of god of their just right and title , viz. to chuse them a pastor . peter martyr in his common places , refers the chusing and election of ministers to the people as their undoubted right : to whom we may joyn mr. bullinger , who sayes , that the apostles exercised not tyranny in the church , in ordaining ministers without the consent of the people ; bullin . decad. . serm. . tit. . tim. . gualter also upon act. . . saith , that those that profess the gospel , handle the matter as evil as the monks and popish bishops , in that they restore not again to the church , the liberty of chusing ministers , which by tyranny they took from them . of the same mind is zanchie , calvin , beza , danaeus , tilenus . tyndal ( the martyr ) with many others , as mr. fox , cartwright , mr. jacob , &c. we cannot omit the famous case of the united brethren of bohemia , who concluding the whole papacy to be purely antichristian , could not allow of the ordination of their ministers by any in communion with it ; and yet being perswaded of a necessity of continuing that ordinance in a way of succession , send some of the greek and armenian churches , who returning with dissatisfaction , they thereupon commit themselves and their cause to god , and chuse elders from among themselves , and by fasting and prayer , solemnly set them apart to the work of the preaching of the gospel . to these many more might be added . the practice pleaded for ( as is evident ) is as antient as the dayes of the apostles , and the first election of ordinary new-testament officers , continued in the church till after the dayes of constantine , when pride and tyranny soon brought all things into horrible confusion , upon the pretext of decency and order ; yet in the worst of times have the witnesses of christ born their testimony hereunto . what say our reverend fathers and ministers of the church of england to these things ? have they not an equal respect to this appointment of christ , as to those before instanced in ? is there any thing like it almost practised by them , in this great concern of separating persons for the preaching of the gospel of christ ? is not the liberty of the brethren and churches of christ , as much as lies in them , wholly disanulled and broken by them ? have they any such call to the ministry ? do they at all value or esteem of it ? are they in the practice of the primitive church , or of the reformed churches of this day in this matter ? is not the print of the feet of the old strumpet of rome , the bloody persecutor of the saints , the cunning deviser of a new self-invented and whorish worship , to be solely found in the paths , they are in this matter traversing ? and can such be accounted as the subjects of the kingdom of christ , and the real owners of his authority and power ? answ. that bishops or presbyters should be chosen by the common suffrage of the church of christ in each city or parish , or select congregation , i find not to be the appointment of christ in the scriptures alledged , or any other ; the impertinency of the allegations to this purpose is shewed before , chap. . sect. . in this chap. sect. . besides what is said in answer to the preface , sect. . . the only text not before considered , acts . , . and . . ( if it were alledged ) were altogether impertinent ; there being no election of st. paul but to be an apostle ; and that by christ , not the church , on whom ananias laid hands at the appointment of christ only , that he might receive his sight , and be filled with the holy ghost ; and to remove the fear of him , and non credence , of his being a disciple , barnabas ( and no other we read of ) took him , and brought him to the apostles declaring how christ had converted him . which are altogether impertinent to prove election of ministers by the common suffrage of the church , and ordination thereupon to be the appointment of christ. it is granted before in the answer to the preface , sect. . that there are relations in antiquity of the election of bishops by the people , which could be no other way then in times of persecution , when the emperors were infidels ; yet withal , that even then things grew into such heats , that sometimes the emperor was fain to interpose for quietness ; and after , when wealth and power by favour of christian emperours were added to bishops , sometimes bloody frayes , and other evils made that election so turbulent , that it was found necessary to put it into the hands of fewer , until the investiture of bishops being wrested from the emperours , the popes seized on it , leaving the election of the inferior clergy unto the bishops or patrons , that had endowed the ministers with estates , except in cases reserved to his romans . but , where the reformation is with the consent of princes , much of the power usurped by popes is recovered by them , in other places the people either chuse or consent to the election ; which being made the whole essence of the ministerial call by congregational men , and by divine right , their opinion is opposed by the london ministers in their jus divinum ministerii evangelici , printed . chap. , . nevertheless , the testimonies produced by this author , are not fully to his purpose ; those out of clements his epistle are not home ; the former speaks of constituting and appointing ministers after the apostles by other famous and discreet men ( as it is in burtons english translation of that epistle ) with the good liking and consent of all the church , which is less then election constituting their call. the other contains only a voluntary offer to prevent breaches , which is nothing to the asserting of a power in them rightly seated ; if it were such , it would be more then this author , i think , would yield , that upon the command of the multitude , a minister is to relinquish his place . the words of luther , bullinger , and perhaps the rest of the protestants ( whose words are not set down ) meant no more than the not obtruding ministers on the churches of christ , as the monks and popish bishops did , who put on the people priests unable to preach the gospel , such as fed themselves and not the flock , without choice or consent of the people . which , if it be any where practised , is unjustifiable ; as on the other side , where people are corrupted with error , or factiousness , or carnal relations , and s●lf aims , or are unskilful to judge of the disposition and abilities of a minister , it is unsafe , or rather more dangerous to intrust the church of christ , though a gathered congregation , with the election of their minister by common suffrage without intervention of some discreet and able ministers to ratifie or disanul it . what cyprian saith , upon the occasion of the lapse of basilides and martialis bishops in spain , of their rejection and the election of sabinus , and felix , was agreeable to the canons then in use , and to the state of those times : what he saith of divine authority , is not rightly proved . the scriptures of the new testament and old , prove no divine institution of a certain way of electing or rejecting ministers , so as that there may not be variation from what he saith was in his time : yet it is meet , that according to the sayings of cyprian , lambard , gualter , or others , respect be had to people , that they be heard what they can say for , or against their minister ; and that he , who is criminous or insufficient , be not imposed on them to their souls hurt . what our reverend fathers and ministers of the church of england say to these things , may be seen in whitgift's answer to the first admonition and defence of the answer , tr. . p. . bilson of the perpetual government of christs church , chap. . andrews respons . ad bellarm. apolog. chap. . p. . after , king james his premonition : hooker eccles. pol. l. . sect . . field of the church , l. . c. . if the prelates do any thing unjustly therein , they must give an account to god ; the ministers , who consent not thereto , are not chargeable ; both may be accounted as subjects of the kingdom of christ , and the real owners of his authority and power , notwithstanding what is objected against them ; especially if the evil be either from the defect or iniquity of laws , canons , and customs , whereby that redress of grievances in this kind , which even the prelates have complained of , is stopped . i confess , that the continuance in force of so much of the popes canon law , or our common law , as hinders a godly and able ministry in every parish , hath been deplored , and much endeavour hath been to amend things : but the experience that hath been of the difficulty therein , even when congregational men have been most industrious to rectifie things , should methinks abate the censures of this author , and rather cause men quietly to wait for a remedy , using the benefit of the ministry we have , than by separation , and popular election in gathered congregations make things worse than they are . sect. . prophesying is not opposed by the ministers . but this author hath not yet done , but tells us , to these , many other institutions of christ may be added , which they subject not to . what should i mention , . that royal command of our soveraign king and lawgiver ( which the profound , self-philosophically wise , but indeed foolish and unlearned doctors of this day , wrest , to the countenancing of the disorders and confusion of antichrist ( darkness so gross that it may be felt ) that all things be done decently and in order , cor. . . viz. that the saints may prophesie one by one , and ought to admonish , exhort , and build up one another in their most holy faith , rom. . . and . . cor. . . and . . and . . ephes. . , , . tim. . . and . . jude . cor. . , . mat. . . pet. . , . cor. . . and . , . ephes. . , , , . acts . . rom. . . ephes. . . col. . . thess. . . thess. . . heb. . . to which might be added the frequent examples of the saints in the old and new testament , chron. . , , . job . . mal. . . luke . . acts . . cor. . . to . and the practice of the primitive church , as witness origen ( in his epistle to celsum ) terrullian ( in his apologie ) justin martyr ( in his apologie ) and many others . answ. the censures of the doctors of this day , and their wresting cor. . . are too general , and not to be answered , save to tell the author , that it is good for a man not to be wise in his own conceit , nor to be too free in censuring others , lest he fall into diogenes his evil , when he trampled on plato's pride with greater pride . but to the rest of the charge i say , that i know none of the ministers of england , that forbid the saints to prophesie one by one : nor do i know of any at this day , that have the gift of prophesie , which i gather from cor. . , . and . , , , . and other places to have been an extraordinary gift , by immediate revelation of the spirit , whereby some hidden thing is discovered . ( see lysord's apologie for the ministery , pag. , . ) if there were any that could prophesie indeed , neither prelates , nor others , may or can hinder them . but when persons mistakingly call all speaking to men to edification , exhortation and comfort , from cor. . . prophesying ( as if these terms were reciprocal ) and under pres●n●e thereof , vent many mistakes and fancies , the restraint or regulating of such exercise● may be no transgression of christs command . and , though the performing of the duties in the texts alledged , ought to be cherished and furthered ; and such meetings , as do really tend thereto , should be countenanced : sith there may be abuses , which are to be prevented by governours , though sometimes there be injustice , and liberty too much restrained , and complaints made to god in secret ; yet should not invectives be used to alienate the minds of people from their teachers or rulers , nor any unlawful practice used tending to sedition , or disturbance ; but by patience and quietness we should possess our souls , expecting help from god in due time , as did the primitive christians with happy success . yet once more , saith this author : sect . ministers service may be divine and spiritual , in the use of the liturgy . yea , . what should i mention that grand institution of this soveraign lord and lawgiver , that nothing be offered up to the father , but what is of his own prescription ( divine and spiritual , without affectation of legal shadows ( john . . ) of worldly pomp or carnal excellency , cor. . . and . . cor. . . and . . ) cor. . . isa. . . jam. . . matth. . , . heb. . . king. . . & , . jer. . . numb . . . deut. . , , . it 's evident , the present ministers of england conform not to the orders and ordinances , christ as the great prophet and lawgiver to his people , hath appointed them to walk by ; and therefore really disown the kingly and prophetical office of christ. answ. it is true , no prayers , or praises , or other religious exercises should be offered to the father ; but , what is of his own prescription in respect of the service it self , matter , or manner , which he hath prescribed : but when he hath left it free to use a prescript form of words , or to pray without such a stinted form , where he forbids not the use of musick in praysing of god , and no idolatry or superstition is used or furthered by ordinances and utensils for the celebration of gods ordinances ; notwithstanding these , the service of god may be divine and spiritual without affectation of legal shadows of worldly pomp , or carnal excellency , contrary to the texts alledged . if any be faulty in that way , it is to be imputed to the persons , not either to others not guilty , nor to the liturgy prescribed ; much less such ministers as offer up prayers and prayses to the father in the name of christ for things agreeable to the will of god , and use the lords supper without idolatry , are to be charged to disown really the kingly and prophetical office of christ. sect. . things objected against the ministers , are not such as justifie separation . this author addes . but perhaps to these things , some may say , these are but small matters , good men differ among themselves herein . to which we answer , . that they are part of the instituted worship of god ; the orders he hath left his children to conform to , hath already been proved : to say , that any part of the instituted worship of christ , is a small matter ; is no small derogation to the wisdom of the lawgiver , that gave it forth . . what if it should appear , that as small as these things seem to be , they are the grounds of the late controversies of god , pleaded with fire and sword in most of the europaean kingdoms ? this may perhaps a little stay sober persons from so rash a conclusion , that these are small matters : a serious review of the late contests of god in the nations , with the consideration of the grounds and rise of them ; will , to persons of sobriety , sufficiently evince the truth of the suggestion . . as small matters as these , have been severely punished by the lord : he is a jealous god , and stands upon punctilio's ( if i may so call them ) in his worship : hence is that expression , ye cannot serve the lord , for he is a jealous god , josh. . . what should i mention the case of uzziah , chron . . of corah , dathan and abiram , numb . . of uzzah , whose sin lay meerly in , whose judgment was singly upon this foot of account ; his not seeking the lord after the due order , chron. . . god commands that when the ark was removed , it should be covered by the priests , that no hand touch it , that it be carryed on mens shoulders , numb . . , . which order was violated , when they brought it from the house of abinadab , 't was uncovered , and upon a cart , after the manner of the egyptians , sam. . . for which breach of order uzzah is struck dead . . as small matters as these , when once commanded by the lord , are of that force , as not only to deface the well-being , but to overturn the true being of the worship of god. take one pregnant instance herein . the lord commanded the israelites by moses , to bring their sacrifices to the place that he should chuse , and offer them there ; which in it self was but a circumstance of place ; yet all the sacrifices offered elsewhere , were a stink in the nostrills of god , and not accounted by him as any worship performed unto him . . but the objection is altogether impertinent : we are not debating the greatness of the sin , but the truth of what is charged upon the present ministers of england : what we have mentioned , are either the appointments of christ , or they are not ; if they are ( as hath been proved ) the present ministers conform to them , or they do not ; if they do not ( as nothing more sure ) they conform not to the orders and ordinances christ hath left his people to walk by ( which is the thing in debate ) and therefore really deny his kingly and prophetical office. answ. by whom this objection is made i know not , i think it of use to abate the rigour of the separation , and the sharpness of the censure that this author passeth on the present ministers of england . for sure if these matters excepted against , be small matters , and good men differ therein , they are not fundamentals of faith or practice ; but that notwithstanding defects , errours , or differences about them , churches , their members , and ministers , may be true churches , christians , and ministers ; nor should there be separation for these things , but mutual toleration of one another , according to the doctrine of st. paul , rom. . , , . and . , . philip. . , . nor ministers disclaimed , while they hold the foundation , much less so heavily judged , as this author doth , contrary to st. pauls doctrine , cor. . . nor should there be such rents and breaches in the church of god for them as there are . though nothing commanded by god is small , yet some are comparatively small , mat. . . that they are part of gods instituted worship , appointments of christ , which he chargeth the ministers of england to oppose , needs better proof than is yet made ; that they overturn the true worship of god , is not demonstrated ; nor that they are the grounds of the late controversies of god , or that therein the ministers sin , as uzziah , corah , dathan , abiram , uzzah ; and therefore the judgments of god which fell on them , may be rashly threatened to the ministers , especially considering that many of them if they sin , may be charitably deemed to sin out of ignorance , not affected , or such weakness as is incident to one truly godly ; which how far he grants , may be perceived by that which follows . as for what is added , that good men differ among themselves in this matter , it 's of no more weight than what went before . for , . 't is not at all to the business in hand . . 't is possible good men may for a while , do that which really enwraps in the bowels of it a denial of the offices of christ. we shall not deny but some of the ministers of england may be so in the account of god. . that good men differ , is an argument of their ignorance and darkness , which though in some cases it excuses à tanto , yet not à toto ; it may alter the degree , never the nature of the sin . . 't is false , that good men , pressing after reformation , and the rest●tution of the worship of god according to the primitive pattern , do differ touching the substance of the things instanced in : were but the pride and passion of mens spirits a little more allaid , and they disentangled more from their selfish interests , a greater harmony would appear amongst them in these matters . but , . as was said , the particulars instanced in , are commanded by christ , or they are not ; if they are ( as hath been proved ) doth it in the least discharge persons that conform not to them , from the charge they are impleaded as guilty , viz non-conformity to the laws of christ ; that good men differ in these matters ( i. e. some good men transgress the laws of christ , which is sure no part of their goodness , nor any warrant to justifie me in the doing of what may strengthen their hands in such a non-conformity . ) answ. . how far this branch of the objection is to the business in hand , is before shewed . . that good men may do that which may be by consequence a denial of christs office , is granted , it being no more than that they may err and sin . that he grants some of the ministers of england may be good men in the account of god , should have made him afraid to censure them so deeply as he doth , and to disswade men from hearing them , or joyning with them in gods worship , as being such as walk disorderly , even the best of them , as symbolizing with antichrist , really denying christs kingly and prophetical office , . if there be darkness in others that dissent from this author , so there may be in this author ; and considering the many learned non-conformists , who have opposed the separation , such as bradshaw , hildersham , ames , paget , ball , and others ; there is as much reason that this author should ascribe darkness to himself as to them . . if the difference among the good men pressing after reformation , be not in the substance of the things instanced in , but in circumstances ; the more to blame is this author for widening the breach , and urging separation by reason of them . pride , passion , self-interests we may more safely charge our selves with , than others ; especially such as it cannot be denied , but that they may be in gods account good men . . 't is true , the main matter to be discussed , is the thing it self , whether it be sin or no : which i have therefore endeavoured to examine impartially , and do conclude , that in this chapter it is not proved unlawful to hear the present ministers of england . let us consider the rest of his arguments . chap. . sect. . all owning of orders different from , or contrary to christs , proves not a denial of his offices . thus he proceeds : that the ministers of england deny the kingly and prophetical offices of christ , and therefore are not to be beard , but separated from , hath been asserted , and by one argument , proved in the foregoing chapter : to the further evidence whereof , a few things more are to be offered in this . argum . those who own , submit and subscribe to orders and ordinances , which not only are not of christs revealing , but contrary thereunto , do really deny , and oppose the prophetical and kingly office of christ : but the present ministers of england do own , submit , and subscribe to orders and ordinances , that are not only not of christs revealing , but contrary thereunto : therefore . the major ( or first proposition ) is beyond exception . if an owning , submitting , and subscribing to orders and ordinances , that are not only , not of christs revealing , but contrary thereunto , be not a denial of his kingly and prophetical office , i must profess , i know not what is . suppose the chief magistrate or magistrates of a nation should give forth a declaration of their will , touching this or that concern , were not persons non-conformity thereunto ( supposing it to be what lies within the verge of their authority , and power to command , and may righteously be exacted of them , whose conformity is thereunto required ) a silent opposition of their authority ; but should any presume to give forth laws of their own , without the least stamp of authority upon them , yea , contrary unto the statute and declarations of their governours ; would not all conclude that these persons and their abettors were guilty of rebellion against their rules , and did really deny the lawfulness of their authority ? this is the present case , if men shall be found traversing paths , in the possession and practice of orders and constitutions that are foreign to the edicts of christ , yea , contrary thereunto ; shall we not as rationally conclude that these persons are really opposers of his soveraign authority and government ? doubtless so . answ. to the major proposition of the fourth argument [ those that oppugn or deny any of the offices of jesus christ , are not to be heard , but separated from ] answer is made before . the major of this argument here needs elucidation and limitation . orders and ordinances which not only are not of christs revealing , but contrary thereunto , are not all of one sort . some are in points of faith , some of practice , some in things not fundamental , some in fundamental . owning , submitting , and subscribing to them , is either out of ignorance , inadvertency , infirmity through fear or some other motive , or voluntary , more or less , which may be aggravated by many circumstances and effects . likewise the denying really , and opposing of the offices of christ , may be virtual or formal , directly or by consequence , by a factious setting up an open antichrist , or by neglecting the proper authority of christ. it is true , every sin and every errour doth in some sort and degree oppugn the offices of jesus christ : every disobedience to a lawful magistrate , every subjection to an usurper hath in it somewhat of denying or oppugning his authority . yet he that should deny , that for every such sin or errour a person can be a good christian , or for every such disobedience or subjection a person can be a true subject , should too stoically make a parity in sins , and neither hold good divinity , nor teach good policy . it is true , he that shall openly and factiously set up another universal monarch of the church , make other mediatours to god besides christ , teach any other way of justification than by faith in christ , that shall expresly forbid the observation of what christ hath commanded ; as for instance , the lords supper , or any other plain command of christ ; such do deny really , and oppose openly the offices of christ. but there may be some errours in faith , and teaching of some use in positive rites , as may be a real denying or opposing interpretatively christs offices , as in teaching circumcision as necessary at that time , acts . . in owning , submitting , and subscribing to some use as may be not only not revealed by christ , but also is by nearer or remote consequence a denial of christs offices ; and yet the persons observing it , as v. g. the reservation of the bread , in the eucharist , sending it to the sick absent , as many did in former times , either out of ignorance , fear , or such like motives , and yet these neither to be reckoned for such , as either in heart , or profession , or practice , deny the offices of christ , as enemies to him , nor to be shunned as such ; but may be his true subjects though weak ones . peters denial of christ , his dissimulation , gal. . shewed not enmity , but infirmity and instability . and many sincere christians may out of errour or weakness teach , and practise many things not only a while , but also all their dayes , and that with much contention and zeal , which may inferr a denial of christs offices , or his nature ; as for instance , lutheran consubstantion , and yet are not to be judged opposers of the kingly and prophetical offices of christ , so as to be disclaimed , separated from , and rejected as no true christian brethren , or teachers . and therefore the major proposition here , may be variously conceived ; and without some limitations and explications is not to be received . but he tells us : sect. . ministers submitting to canons is unjustly censured . 't is the minor ( or second proposition ) that may be under suspition among some , viz. that the present ministers of england ( the very best of them ) do own , submit , and subscribe to orders and ordinances that are not only not of christs revealing , but contrary thereunto : in which two things are incumbent on us to prove . . that the present ministers of england do own , submit , and subscribe to orders and ordinances that are not of christs revealing . this being a charge , as to matter of fact , the production of a few particulars , that lie near at hand , for its confirmation , will give it a speedy dispatch . . they own , submit , and subscribe to the orders and offices of arch-bishops , bishops , deans , arch-deacons , with many others appertaining unto this hierarchie , as orders needful and necessary in the church of christ , and promise subjection and obedience unto them , eccles. canons , can. . . they own , and submit ( can. . ) to a liturgy or prescript form of worship devised by men , and imposed solely by their authority , to which they tie themselves , neither diminishing nor adding any thing in the matter or form thereof . . they own , subscribe , and engage to conform to all the orders , rites ▪ and ceremonies prescribed in the said book of common prayer ( can. . ) such as bowing at the name of jesus , using the cross in baptism , kneeling at the lords supper , ( which though we do not , some would say , smells very strong of the popish leven , and is but one peg beneath the adoration of their breaden god ) wearing the surplice , &c . they own , that the office of a deacon is the first step or degree to the ministry ( can. , ) to which they are t● submit and subscribe , before they are made priests . . that no person be admitted to expound the scriptures , though indeed worthy of the cure of souls ( as they speak can. . ) without license from the bishop thereunto . . that there be some lawful ministers which are no preachers ( can. , . ) . that these unpreaching ministers ( can. . ) may lawfully administer the ordinances of baptism and the lords supper . . that persons refusing to have their children baptized by such dumb ministers , or receive the communion from them , worthily deserve excommunication if they shall persist herein , ( can. . ) . that confirmation by diocesan bishops is an ordinance of god , ( can. . ) . that it appertains to the office of ministers to marry , ( can. . ) . that the bishop of the diocess may lawfully , for a while , suspend a minister from his ministry , for refusing to bury the dead , ( can. . ) . that 't is not lawful for ministers to preach or administer the communion in private houses , except in times of necessity , ( can. . ) . that no minister may lawfully appoint or keep any solemn private fasts , or be wittingly present at any of them ; nor hold any meetings for sermons in market-towns , or other places ; which if he do , and persevere therein , he may lawfully be deposed from his ministry , ( can. . ) . that ministers ought to be distinguished by their vestments and apparel , as gowns , hoods , tippers , square caps ; and in their journeys cloaks with sleeves , ( called priests cloaks , can . ) with many more that might be added , to which the ministers of england are to subscribe and own , as agreeable to the word of god , before their admission into the ministry , according to the . canon ecclesiastical ▪ are any of these ordinances and constitutions of the appointment of christ ? when or where were they instituted by by him ? that these are posts set by the lords posts , and thresholds by his thresholds ( of which the lord complains , ezek. . . ) who sees not ? that the present ministers of england do conform and subscribe hereunto , cannot be denied ; and thence an owning , subscribing , and submitting to orders and constitutions that are not of christs appointment , is evidently evinced . answ. though i undertake not to justifie all that is in the ecclesiastical canons of the synod at london , anno . nor need the present ministers , nor perhaps will they or the bishops themselves take it upon them ; yet that it may appear how falsly and injuriously this authour hath dealt with them , and how superficially he hath handled this argument ; i say , i. that he hath misrecited the canons in all or most of the particulars alledged . . in the . canon it is not said , that the orders and offices of arch bishops , bishops , deans , arch-deacons , with many others appertaining unto this hierarchy , are orders needful and necessary in the church of christ ; nor is it required therein , that the ministers promise subjection and obedience unto them . but it is censured as a wicked errour to affirm , that the government of the church of england under his majesty by arch-bishops , bishops , deans , arch●deacons , and the rest that bear office in the same is antichristian or repugnant to the word of god ; and it is required of such as have thus affirmed that before their absolution from excommunication they repent , and publikely revoke it . . in the . canon , ministers are not required to own and submit to a liturgy , or prescript form of worship devised by men , and imposed solely by their authority , nor to tie themselves to it , neither diminishing nor adding in the matter or form thereof : but it is judged a wicked errour to affirm , that the form of gods worship in the church of england , established by the law , and contained in the book of common prayer and administration of sacraments , is a corrupt , superstitious or unlawful worship of god , or containeth any thing in it that is repugnant to the scriptures ; and it is required of such as have thus affirmed , that before their absolution from excommunication they repent , and publickly revoke it . . in the third particular are sundry things liable to exception . . it is said that in the book of common prayer , bowing at the name of jesus is prescribed ; which i find not there , but in the canon ▪ . it is not well , that when this author does not , yet he tells us some would say , that kneeling at the lords supper smells very strong of the popish leven , and is but one peg beneath the adoration of their breaden god ; when he might know , that not only the . article of the church of england , and the homily of the peril of idolatry , and the apology of the church of england , are fully against it , but also the compilers of the common prayer book , suffered martyrdom for their refusal and abhorrency of such adoration ; and in the rubrick of the common prayer book , as it is now established , after the communion there is a clear and sufficient declaration against it ; which should , if this author had dealt candidly , have been told ignorant people , who are drawn into a separation upon this suggestion . . it is true , that in the canon subscription is required to this article , that the book of common prayer , and of ordering of bishops , priests , and deacons , containeth in it nothing contrary to the word of god , and that it may be lawfully used , and that he himself will use the form in the said book prescribed in publike prayer and administration of the sacraments , and none other ; which i take not to be the same with owning , submitting , and engaging to conform to all the orders , rites , and ceremonies prescribed therein . . it is said canon . . the office of a deacon , is a step or degree to the ministry , according to the judgment of the ancient fathers , and the practice of the primitive church , and the subscription is required in the . canon to the book of ordination , as i have set it down here ; but they are not required by that subscription to own this assertion , that the office of a deacon is the first step or degree to the ministry . . in the . canon it is said , no person whatsoever , not examined and approved by the bishop of the diocess , or not licensed for a sufficient or convenient preacher , shall take upon him to expound in his own cure , or elsewhere , any scripture , or matter , or doctrine : but they do not speak [ though judged worthy of the cure of souls ] they may have a cure of souls by indirect means , or by reason of the imperfection of the law to debarr them , or by reason of the want of sufficient preachers , as was in the beginning of the reformation , or for want of maintenance for able preachers to undertake it , who are not judged worthy of the cure of souls . , and . neither of the positions are canons , . though their ministration of baptism and the lords supper is made sufficient . and the . particular is in canon . . can. . it is not said , that confirmation by diocesan bishops , is an ordinance of god , but that it hath been a solemn ancient and laudable custom in the church of god , continued from the apostles times , that all bishops should lay their hands upon children baptized , and instructed in the catechism of christian religion , praying over them , and blessing them ; which we commonly call confirmation ; and that this holy action hath been accustomed in the church in former ages . . it is not said canon . that it appertains to the office of ministers to marry ; but they are only regulated therein . . the bishop is to suspend according to can. . ministers refusing to bury ; but the lawfulness of it is not there asserted , though presupposed . , . ministers preaching , administring the communion in private houses , except in times of necessity ; some appointing of fasts , holding meetings for sermons , are forbidden , can. , . but it is not there determined that they are forbidden , because of the unlawfulness ; inexpediency , or inconvenience may occasion a prohibition of that which is not unlawful . . it is not asserted can. . that ministers ought to be distinguished by the habit there prescribed , but that ancient churches thought it fit . ii. were all true which this author hath alledged in these particulars , yet it is not true which he saith , that either in the , or . canon ecclesiastical ministers are to subscribe to , and own all these orders and ordinances , as agreeable to the word of god. iii. to the questions , are any of these ordinances and constitutions of the appointment of christ ? when or where were they instituted by him ? i might answer by cross interrogations , are the church-covenant , gathering of churches in the congregational way , by severing choice members from the rest , requiring an account of the manner of their conversion , making election by the common suffrage of the members essential to a minister , imposition of hands , tied to the eldership of that church ; maintenance by collection every lords day , excommunication by the major part of the members , with many more of the orders of congregational churches , ordinances , and constitutions of the appointment of christ ? when and where were they instituted by him ? it is not i presume altogether forgotten , that such questions have been propounded to them by mr. ball , apollonius , and many others , and their answers judged insufficient . and if they cannot shew christs appointment for their orders , which they require , why do they charge so deeply the ministers of england as denying and opposing the prophetical and kingly office of christ , for submitting to orders , which as well may be said to be of christs appointment as their own ; or at least when they themselves may by the same reason be concluded to deny or oppose the same offices ? but for a direct answer , i grant they are not ordinances and constitutions of the appointment of christ , and yet judge they may be submitted and conformed to , and required of governours , while they are regulated by laws of ecclesiastical policy , and do think that mr. hooker in his three first books of ecclesiastical policy hath evinced thus much . iv. to what is said , that these are posts set by the lords posts , and thresholds by his thresholds ( of which the lord complains , ezek. . . ) who sees not ? i answer , diodate his annot. on ezek. . . is this , their threshold ] that is to say , they set their idols , and perform their service in my temple , in places and chappels near to the places which are consecrated to my service . see king. , . and . . jer. . . ezek. . . and . . and . . all the interpreters i meet with , and the words themselves shew , that the thing complained of , was another thing than making orders and constitutions without revelation and appointment of christ for ecclesiastical rule ( such as those constitutions in the canons of the church of england , are , which in christian churches have in like sort been made in the best times ; yea , and some in the jewish church without reproof ; ) to wit , idolatrous practices by their kings ( such as ahaz and manasseh were ) called whoredoms , v. , . and abominations which they committed and defiled gods holy name ; and for which be consumed them in his anger ; and therefore tell this author , that i see not those ordinances he mentions to be posts set by the lords posts , and thresholds by his thresholds , complained of ezek . . but rather think him in a dream or phrensie that saith he sees it . yea further , if it were granted that the complaint were against their act , as adding inventions of men to gods ordinances , yet this cannot be understood but of such as are made gods worship , or wherein that which god hath appointed is altered or corrupted . and therefore i conclude , that it is no small abuse of this text , which occurrs in sundry printed sermons and other books to make every order of men about gods worship , or the governing of the church to be thus branded , and out of all infer , that what he saith he hath evidently evinced , is but a vain brag of this author . let 's proceed in viewing what follows . sect. . making canons in things undetermined , and subjection to them , agrees with scripture . object . if it be said , that though these canons , and constitutions owned by the ministers of england , be not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be found in the scripture of the institution of christ in so many words , yet by consequence they may rationally be deduced from thence : as where it is commanded , that all things be done decently and in order , cor. . . which 't is the duty of the church to make rules and constitutions about , which when it hath done , it is the duty of every son thereof , to own , or subject to , without questioning its authority . answ. though i assert not that the canons and constitutions ecclesiastical of the church of england , may be rationally deduced from scripture ; and therefore make not the objection as here it is framed , yet i assert that canons , and constitutions ecclesiastical concerning divine worship , and church covernment may be made by governours , if they be not opposite to such rules as are in scripture about gods worship , and the rule of his church ; and be indeed subservient and conducible to the well-ordering of such worship and rule : and that the members of the churches under their governours should submit to , and yield obedience to them , as to other humane laws , not conceiving the things commanded obligatory of their consciences , as things appointed by divine authority , so as that it should be sin to disobey or omit them in any case : but by virtue of the general precept of obedience , heb. . . and in order to the ends of their rule without any contempt of their authority , or refractariness they should be either actively or passively obeyed , though the things themselves be only indifferent , and not of themselves , or directly binding the conscience . and this i conceive to be proved , . from reason , because without such regulations , church societies can no more be continued by reason of the difference of minds and capacities than other societies , which is proved true by experience . . from the practise of all sorts of churches , who have in process of time found it necessary to have synods to this end . . from the course god hath taken with the christian churches , to whom he hath delivered the doctrine of faith , and necessaries of worship in the scriptures , but hath left many accidentals about worship and church government undetermined , & therefore left them partly to each one 's own light in things concerning himself only , partly to the rulers domestical , national , civil , ecclesiastical in things that concern the several communities . . from the texts cor. . . heb. . . and other places . for in that after all his discourse about ordering the use of their gifts , he ends with this general rule ; he thereby shews , that more things were to be ordered by that rule , either by each one himself , or by their governours , as he himself did resolve , cor. . . and appointed titus and timothy in the epistles to them , and enjoyned obedience , heb. . . now let us consider what is answered hereto . he saith : sect. . it 's no derogation from scripture , or christ , that such canons are made and obeyed . answ. that there is any thing of moment in this objection , though their achilles in this matter , and that which they are upon every turn producing , is easily demonstrated . the whole of it being built upon as uncertain principles , yea , upon as notoriously false suppositions , as ever objection in so weighty a case was built upon . . 't is supposed that christ hath not determined in the scripture , how the affairs of his house should be managed with decency and order , as well as commanded that they be so ; which is : . no small derogation to the perfection of the scriptures . . to the wisdom and faithfulness of christ , debasing him herein below moses ; though the scripture in this respect prefers him before him . . diametrically opposite to the scripture instanced in , which stands as a two edged sword to cut the throat of their cause , in its approaches thereto for shelter : of which take this brief account ; the apostle having in the beginning of the chapter prest the church of corinth , to follow after spiritual gifts , but especially that they might prophesie ; the liberty of the saints therein being fully asserted , and several directions thereabout given , he condemns their disorderly practice , in respect of this important duty and priviledge , ver . . and gives direction touching its regular performance ; and this he doth , first , generally , ver . . let all things be done to edifying , which with a little alteration he represses , ver . . let all things be done decently and in order . secondly , particularly , by telling them how they ought to manage this affair in a way of decency , order , and edification ; wherein several rules are comprised , too long to be here insisted on , as in cases of speaking in an unknown tongue , ver . , . of prophesying by two or three , ver ▪ , . of the duties of women , with respect thereunto , ver . , . that from hence a power invested in the church for the binding of the consciences of men , touching ceremonies in worship , should be regularly deduced , is the first born of improbabilities and absurdities . . paul speaking by an infallible spirit of prophecie , advises the church of corinth , that all things be done decently and in order ; therefore persons that have not , pretend not to such a spirit , may of their own heads bind our consciences by laws and rules of their own in the service of god. . paul doth not only tell them , that all things ought to be done decently and in order ; but discovers to them , wherein that decency and order lies ; therefore the church hath power to determine in this matter , are such non-sequiturs as will not in haste be made good . i reply , as the argument is framed by me , there is moment in the objection , which is not built upon the principle he expresseth , but this ; that however christ hath not only commanded , but also determined in generals in the scripture , how the affairs of his house should be managed with decencie and order ; yet in many particularities he hath not determined how the worship of god and rule of his church should be managed with decencie and order ; as whether at the communion there should be a table spread with a linnen cloth , the service begin with a recital of the institution , or prayer ; publike prayer begin with confession of sin , or thanksgiving , or profession of our faith ; seating of persons in the meeting be with respect to their civil degrees , or sexe , or promiscuously ; sermon begin at the reading of the text , and prayer be after or before ; these with many more are indeterminate by christ or his apostles in the scripture , and yet are to be determined according to the rule of decency and order , either by each person himself in that which is private , or by rulers in that , which belongs to the community ; and obedience is due to the determinations of rulers in these things . and it seems to me ( to use this authors own phrase ) the first-born of improbabilities and absurdities , that god should charge parents to bring up their children in the nurture and admonition of the lord , eph. . . that we should first of all make supplications , prayers , intercessions , giving of thanks for all men , for kings , and for all that are in authority ; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty , tim. . , . that the bishop should be one that takes care of the church of god , tim. . . if these have no power in the worship of god , and rule of the church to make constitutions about things undetermined , or that they may without any sin be disobeyed . for as for the exception , as if such power reaches only to things civil not ecclesiastical , the contrary is proved by bishop sanderson in his sixth lecture about the obligation of conscience . nor is there any derogation to the perfection of scripture , or the faithfulness of christ by such a grant . for the sufficiency of the scripture being in affording doctrines of faith and rules of life , if as able to make a man wise unto salvation through faith in christ jesus , as the apostle speaks , tim. . . its perfection is acknowledged , there is no lessening of its use , though it be said , that notwithstanding its sufficiency to its end ; yet laws domestical , civil , national , ecclesiastical , are necessary to be added for good order and government . and the faithfulness of christ , heb. . . is not placed in determining every particularity in worship , ( yea , he was faithful in that he did not ) for then he should have put upon us such a yoke , as moses bid , contrary to his office , joh. . . but in that he discharged the work his father had appointed him as our high priest , in suffering and interceding for us ; and as the apostle of our profession , in teachinng us the counsel of god fully in the doctrine of the gospel , and that above moses , as being not as a servant in gods house only as moses , but as a son over his own house . and it is to be considered what bishop sanderson observes , that if christs faithfulness must have been extended to the determination of all particularities equally to moses , he must have set down all particularities of civil government , as moses did in the judicial laws of the jews , and so those laws must be observed ( as some have attempted ) and the common law of england must be evacuated ; and a yoke put upon our necks , from which christ hath freed us . and therefore a good argument is hence deducible , that god would have the ordering of things undetermined left to governours , because otherwise christ should not have been faithful as moses , sith he hath not determined them ; yea should have been unfaithful if he had , sith it was the will of god that christians should not have such a yoke of rites put upon them , as moses did put upon the jews , acts . , ▪ gal. . , , , . but the text cor. . . requires more consideration , sith he saith it is diametrically opposite to that principle it is alledged to establish , which is but a meer dictate of his , for which he brings no proof : for neither is his account of the apostles dissertation right , it being not true , that he asserts the liberty of the saints in prophesying ; as if prophesying were the liberty of the saints as such , which was the peculiar gift of prophets , v. , . which now the saints have not , no● can now claim , as many do arrogantly , as if it were their liberty , inferring from v. . that because it is said , he that prophesieth , speaketh unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort ; therefore every one that speaketh unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , did prophesie ▪ which is like as if , because it is said , cor. . . charity edifieth ; therefore it should be inferred , that whatever edifieth is charity ; nor is it right , that the apostle , v. . represseth his direction , v. . that being another direction , and a general one after and besides the particulars , v. , , , , , . nor if it were as he saith , is there any thing to prove , that all the particular wayes of decency , order , and edification , are there set down ; or that none are permitted to the care of after-rulers . nor is the argument , as i have framed it , evacuated ; who have not endeavoured to prove thence a power invested in the church for the binding of the consciences of men , touching ceremonies in worship , but do wave the controversies about the ceremonies of the cross , surplice and kneeling ; about which the writings of bishop morton , burges , ames , and others are extant ; nor do i alledge the words as doctor hammond expounds them , rendring 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , according to appointment ; in which he is opposed by mr. jeans : but only thus argue , there 's a general rule after divers particulars instanced in , left by the apostle in the close of his dissertation , which were of no use , if he had set down all wayes of decency and order , and left none to be determined by others ; therefore yet there remain particularities of decency and order about divine worship and church-rule to be determined by men : which that it belongs to rulers , i gathered from other places . as for the arguments as he frames them , i know none that avows them , neither do i think any doth express himself thus , paul speaking by an infallible spirit of prophesie adviseth the church of corinth ; for though i doubt not but paul spake by an infallible spirit in that advise , yet that is fitter to be termed apostolick than of prophesie : nor do i conceive any of them whom he opposeth would unadvisedly thus conclude , persons that have not , pretend not to such a spirit , may of their own heads bind our consciences by laws and rules of their own in the service of god : nor do i think any would say , paul doth not only tell them , that all things ought to be done decently and in order ; but discovers to them , wherein that decency and order lies . for they conceive this false , except about the point of prophesying in that place , and that the apostle gives only a general rule , and leaves the particularities of decency and order to be determined by others , chiefly rulers : nor would they thence inferr , therefore the church hath power in this matter ; but rather thus plead , that which belonging to decency and order is commanded in general , but not in the particularities determined , is in respect of communities left to be determined by their rules : but so is the apostles command , cor. . . therefore , &c. the major rests on this , that what is to be determined in or for a community , is supposed to belong to their rulers . this author goes on thus : sect. all particularities of decency and order in things sacred , are not determined in scripture . but let this be granted , suppose that 't is the priviledge and duty of the church to make laws and constitutions , for the binding of the consciences of men in matters of decency and orders ; this church herein is bounded by the scripture , or it is not : if it be ( for which he cites in the margin these words of , macovius in loc . com . cap. . p. . the laws by which the governours of the church are to judge , are such as are prescribed in the word of god ) bounded by the scripture , then when it hath no prescription therein for its commands , it s not to be obeyed , and so we are where we were before , that decency and order is to be determined by the scripture : if it be not bounded thereby , then whatever ceremonies it introduceth not directly contrary thereunto , they must be subjected to ; which how fair an inlet it is to the whole farrago of popish inventions , who sees not ? answ. i say not , 't is the priviledge and duty of the church to make laws and constitutions for the binding of the consciences of m●n in the matters of decency and order ; but that the particularities of decency and order not determined in scripture may by canons to that end , be prescribed ; the general rules in scripture , the laws of nature , right reason , other laudable customs and just laws being duely observed ; and that persons are to obey them , not as bound in conscience directly , and by the things themselves , but indirectly and by accident , ; because appointed by rulers , to whom god requires obedience in those things : which being rightly understood , both horns of the dilemma are avoided , they being bounded in the scripture , in the general are to be obeyed as other humane laws ; and the particularities not being there determined , the wayes of decency and order not determined by scripture , are to be received : and yet it follows not that whatever ceremonies rulers introduce not directly contrary to scripture , must be subjected to ; much less a fair inlet made to the whole farrago of popish inventions . for if indirectly they be contrary to scripture , or otherwise hurtful , or not subservient to the ends of such laws , or become by reason of their number or imposition , such a yoke as christ hath freed us from , there may be a relaxation from them , more than from other humane civil laws ; and for all , or some of these reasons , the whole farrago of popish inventions is to be excluded , though other ecclesiastical laws of the church of england be subjected to . wherein i meddle not with the question about the ceremonies controverted , and therefore may let pass that which this author adds ; yet were this also yielded them , they were never a jot nearer the mark aimed at , except it can be proved , that supposing a power of introducing ceremonies to be invested in the church , thence a power for the institution of new orders and ordinances , the introducing of heathenish , jewish , and superstitious practices in the worship of god , may be evinced ; there being no necessity that in answering his argument i should avouch the imposition or use of those ceremonies , which the non-conformists argue against . nor need i reply to what he adds : and yet should all this be yielded them , none of which will they be able to prove to the worlds end ; how will they manifest those lordly commands and constitutions are the constitutions of a truly constituted church of christ , ( a strong supposition hereof is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the present objection : ) and yet sail they in the making good their ground herein : who sees not that their plea hitherto impleaded sinks of it self ? sith i neither plead for the constitutions of the church of england in particular ; nor is it my supposition , that only the constitutions of a constituted church of christ bind in things of divine worship and church rule , and therefore my answer and position need not sink for want of making good this plea. and accordingly might put him off to others to answer his impertinent questions , what is it then they mean by the church , whose 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we are without disputing to subject to ? is it the national church of england ? but where find they any national church of the institution of christ , in the oeconomie of the gospel ? how prove they that the church of england is so ? nevertheless , i may say i know not any that hold concerning the church of england that its 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 proper opinions are to be subjected to , without dispute ; though the romanists hold it of the church of r●me : and for a national church i refer him to what is before in answer to his preface , sect . . but there are more questions behind . yet should this also be granted , where are the constitutions and laws of this church , that we may pay the homage to them as is meet ? which question he might answer himself , who in this chapter cites so many of the canons of the church of england . but he yet enquires , when was it assembled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the same place together , in its several members freely to debate , ( cor. . . and . ) and in the margin , maccovius in loc . com . append . de adi . p. . things indifferent , he tells you , ought not to be introduced into the church , but by the common consent thereof , according to acts . ) determine what laws and constitutions were fit to be observed by them ? to which i answer , the church of england was assembled at london , anno . in its several members by deputation freely to debate things , as was the usage in the synods of ancient and later times , and even in new england at cambridge , there about the antinomian opinions in mr. welds history ; in england in the assembly at westminster , of the congregational churches by their elders and messengers in their meeting at the savoy , octob. . . which kind of meeting must be allowed as the meeting of the whole church , which they represent , there being no other way , in which orderly many particular churches throughout a nation can convene and debate freely , either points of doctrine or discipline , than by such deputies ; and therefore as the whole kingdom is said to meet in the parliament , so the whole church may be said to meet in their synod . nor is there any thing against this , in cor. . or cor. . . unless it be supposed , that all those must meet to debate matters of doctrine and discipline , who did then meet for worship , which is not to be said : for then in such things women also must have a voice contrary to the apostles resolution , cor. . . and the practice of all the churches . as for act. . the synod was about a point of doctrine , and though it be said , ver . . that it pleased the apostles and elders , with the whole church , to send some to antioch ; yet the whole church is not likely to be meant of every particular member , but as acts . , . acts . , . and elsewhere , by the multitude , or whole church , is meant a great part or indefinite number . however those from antioch , mentioned acts . . were not many , and therefore if that synod be a pattern for after times ; yet it cannot be a rule in respect of the number of persons convening , when churches are so increased , or so far distant one from another , as that they cannot commodiously meet in their multitudes or debate orderly , but must of necessity act by deputies , and their constitutions are to be taken as the constitutions of the whole church , for whom they appear . but this author excepts : if it be said , that this is not requisite , it is enough that it be assembled in its several officers , or such as shall be chosen by their officers , whose laws every member is bound to be obedient to . we answer , but these officers are the church , or they are not ; if they are not ( as there is nothing more sure ) i owe no subjection to their laws or constitutions , it being pleaded , that 't is the church that hath only power in this matter : if they are the church , let them by one scripture prove they are so : or where the true officers of a true church are so called , and as nonius saith out of n●vius to them , dum vivebo fidelis ero . yet except this also be yielded them , there is nothing of moment in the objection produced . answ. the objection , as it is by me made , is not the plea as here is supposed . the power in this matter , is by me ascribed to rulers , and texts requiring obedience to them have been produced ; and notwithstanding this authors exceptions , there is something of moment in the objection ; and the speech is not made good , that the present ministers of england , submit , own , and subscribe to laws and constitutions that are not in any sense of christ revealing ; nor if it were , doth it follow , therefore they oppose the kingly and prophetical office of christ. sect. . it 's not proved , that the ministers of england , own constitutions contrary to the revelation of christ. he goes on thus : but this is not all . ly . the present ministers of england do own , submit , and subscribe to laws , constitutions , and ordinances , that are contrary to the revelation of christ , whence an opposition to the kingly and prophetical office of christ , may rationally be concluded . this also by the induction of a few particular instances , will be evinced beyond exception . answ. four things are here undertaken : . that the particular instances , stand by laws and constitutions . . that these laws , constitutions , and ordinances , are contrary to the revelation of christ. . that the present ministers of england , do own , submit and subscribe to them . . that from thence an opposition to the kingly and prophetical office of christ , may rationally be concluded . in which , how he hath failed , will be apparent by the view of what he alledgeth . they own , saith he , and acknowledge , . that there may be other arch-bishops , and lord-bishops in the church of christ , besides himself : which is contrary to pet. . . cor. . . ephes. . . heb. . . luke . , . answ. that there may be other arch-bishops and lord-bishops in the church of christ besides himself , is acknowledged by the present ministers of england , but not in the sense in which christ is called the chief shepherd , pet. . . or the same lord , cor. . . or one lord , ephes. . . or the apostle and high priest of our prosession , heb. . . or lordship is forbidden , pet. . . luke . , . they are not acknowledged arch-bishops over the whole church , as the pope ; but in their own province : nor are they termed arch-bishops , as if other bishops had their authority from them , as the pope claims ; but they only have a primacy or precedency , with some other prerogatives , by that title . nor are they , or other bishops , made lords , as christ , over the whole church , or have such dominion ascribed to them over the church they oversee , as is forbidden , pet. . . luke . , . and is usurped by popish bishops ; but are lords only by the kings grant , as is said before in answer to chap. . sect. , . not in the church of christ , but in the kingdom and parliament ; and therefore this acknowledgement is not contrary to the revelation of christ ; there being no contrariety , or contradiction , unless there were an opposition in the same respect , as logicians determine christ is said , tim. . . to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the only dynasta , or potentate ; and yet without contrariety , or contradiction the eunuch , acts . . is termed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dynasta or potentate , as in the reading in the margin of our translation . but were there contrariety , yet it is not shewed , that what is acknowledged is a law , constitution , or ordinance ( which do usually determine not what may be , but what shall and must be ) nor that ministers own it by subscription . . that men may and ought to be made ministers , only by these lord-bishops : which is contrary to heb. . . john . , . and . . and . . act. . . with . , . answ. it is true , it is acknowledged by the present ministers of england , that men may be made ministers by these lord-bishops ; but not that they may and ought to be made ministers only by these lord-bishops ; sith ministers are allowed , who are made by suffragan bishops , who are not lords ; and for the churches reformed , of foreigners dwelling in england ministers made by presbyters only . but this is not a law , constitution , or ordinance to which ministers subscribe ; nor if they did , is there any contrariety therein to the revelation of christ. heb. . . it is said , and no man taketh this honour , that is , of being high-priest , unto himself , but he that is called of god as aaron . but this is impertinently alledged , being not spoken of the gospel ministery ; but of the priesthood of the law , and the high-priest , and of his calling by god immediately ; and therefore , if that which the ministers acknowledge be proved contrary to the revelation of christ by this text , the making of m●nisters in congregational churches by their eldership is alike contrary , sith they are not called of god as aaron . of the impertinency of john . , . enough is said before in the answer to chap. . sect. . joh. . . he that receiveth whomsoever i send , receiveth me . is no more contrary to bishops ordination , than to presbyters , john . . speaks not at all of making ministers , but of the way whereby christians have access to god of acts . . and . , . enough hath been said in answer to chap. . sect. . . that prelates , their chancellors , and officers , have power from christ to cast out of the church of god , contrary to mat. . , . cor. . . answ. that there is a law , ordinance , or constitution of this , to which ministers subscribe , i finde no● . of the texts mat. . , . cor. . . enough hath been said in answer to the preface , sect. . to chap. . sect. . whence the impertinency of the alledging these texts may appear . . that the office of suffragans , deans , canons , petty-canons , prebendaries , coiristers , organists , archdeacons , commissaries , officials , parsons , vicars , and curates are lawful and necessary to be had in the church , evidently contrary to cor. , . rom. . . ephes. . . the officers instituted by christ are sufficient for the edification and perfecting of the saints , till they all come unto a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of christ , ver . , . in what sense the forementioned , being not one of them of the institution of christ , may be owned as lawful or necessary , without an high contempt of the wisdom and soveraignty of christ , cannot by such dull persons as my self he conjectured that any others see them any way useful to the church of christ , may be imputed to such a sharp-sightedness as was that of caius caligula , to whom , when he enquired of vitellius , whether he saw him not imbracing the moon ? 't was answered solis ( domine ) vobis-diis licet se invicem videre . answ. where this imagined law , ordinance , or constitution is , or when and how the present ministers do own , acknowledge , submit , and subscribe to it ( as this author suggests ) is not here shewed by him , nor do i know where to finde it . o● the office of so many of these , as are ordained presbyters , or priests ( as the term is in the english liturgy ) enough hath been said in answering the chapter , sect. , . &c. that though their names are various ; yet their office is the same with some of those who are of christ , cor. . . rom. . ephes. . . and consequently lawful and necessary ; the rest are not reckoned among the orders of ministry in the church , but counted services , which are acknowledged not necessary ; and whether they be useful or not , it matters not in respect of the present enquiry , if there be no law , constitution , or ordinance to make them lawful and necessary to be had in the church , which the ministers subscribe to , as i think there is not . . that the office ●f deacons in the church , is to be imployed in publick praying , administration of baptism , and preaching , if licensed by the bishop thereunto ; contrary to act. . . ephes. . . answ. that at first the institution of deacons was to serve tables , acts . . not to preach the word of god ; yet steven and philip being imployed in preaching , and philip in baptizing , it is not contrary to christs revelation in those texts or any other , that they should be imployed in those works . . that the ordinance of breaking bread , or the sacrament of the lords supper may be administred to one alone ; as to a sick man ready to die : which is diametrically opposite to the nature and institution of that ordinance , cor. . . and . . mat. . . act. . . and . . answ. the communion is in time of infectious diseases allowed to be administred to one only besides the minister , which whether it be fit to be done , is left to the minister . that it is diametrically opposite to the nature and institution of that ordinance , is not easily proved . cor. . . a communion is proved in that sacrament , but ver . . and cor. . . rather proves the communion to be therein with all believers throughout the world though absent , than only with the present partakers ; and if so , though but two joyn , the minister and the sick man , the communion there meant is held with all christians , the meaning and intent of the apostle being to shew that by partaking thereof , they shew themselves of one body or community with all christians , and so may not partake of the table of devils , ver . . christ did institute the lords supper to his disciples ; but that so many or a number above two are necessary , so as that otherwise it should not have the nature of that sacrament , cannot be thence inferred . cor. . . acts . . do prove it should be administred , when all communicants come together ; but whether it want the nature of the sacrament , if but two be together , specially in a case extraordinary , may be questioned . as acts . . it is said , they continued in breaking of bread ; so ver . . it is said , they did it from house to house ; therefore not the whole church in jerusalem brake bread in one house , but by companies in several houses , and so as they could commodiously , which is an argument , that the smalness of the number takes not away the nature of the sacrament , if the thing appointed by christ be done . sect. . a prescript form of words in prayer devised by man , is not contrary to rom. . . cor. . . . that a prescript form of words in prayer , a ceremonius pompous worship , devised by man , and abused to idolatry , is according to the will of god , and may lawfully be used under the new-testament dispensation ; contrary to mat. . . and . . john . . deut. . . jer. . . rom. . . cor. . . answ. that which the present ministers own and subscribe to , as containing in it nothing contrary to the word of god , and that it may lawfully be used , with promise to use it , is the book of common-prayer . this author impeacheth it as contrary to the will of god , and not to be lawfully used under the new-testament dispensation . . because there is a prescript from of words in prayer . . the worship is ceremonious . . that it is pompous . . devised by man. . abused to idolatry . what part of it is , or was abused to idolatry should have been expressed . if he mean kneeling at the lords supper , that is his tenth instance to be considered again , if that which is said already in answer to this chapter sect. . be not sufficient ; if he mean the whole book , because out of the popes portuis , that is answered before , in answer to chap. . sect. . his allegation of jer. . . seems to be brought to prove it unlawful to use any thing in the worship of god abused to idolatry . but it is so impertinent , that were any conscience made how scripture is applyed , or shame to abuse readers with texts impertinent , it had been omitted ; it being only a prediction of the ruine of the city of babylon , not of the temple of the idol , that it should not be built again , by reason of the opression and idolatry of the inhabitants , not a prohibition to the jews , that they should not use the stones of babylon , to build a temple to god at jerusalem , because abused to idolatry . why the worship of the common prayer is termed ceremonious , or pompous , is left to be ghessed . if he mean it , as it is used in cathedrals and collegiate churches and chappels , there is no constitution for it as such , to which ministers are required to subscribe ; if because of the ceremony of the surplice and cross , and the singing of psalms ; or because it is with external words and gestures , the first of these being an adjunct only to the minister , doth not make the worship it self ceremonius or pompous ; and the second being only a monitory sign annexed to a rite of worship is not fitly termed worship ; the third methinks should be allowed , as commanded ephes. . . col. . . external words and gestures if agreeable to the examples of holy men should not be excepted against , nor are they contrary to john . . which excludes only the legal shawdowy worship of the law , and that which is only external , and so hypocritical ; otherwise external worship is required , cor. . . but i suppose the chief exception is , that the ministers own and use a prescript form of words devised by man ; which he conceives contrary to the other texts alledged by him , how pertinently , is to be considered . to mat. . and deut. . . answer is made chap. . sect. . mat. . . requires teachers to teach disciples of christ to observe all that he hath commanded ; but proves not , that no prescript form of prayer devised by man , may be lawfully used . for then it would follow , that conceived forms of prayer may not be used , for they are devised by men , they are not immediately from gods spirit , as is apparent by the phrases , and matter oft times used ; nor are they commanded by christ , but rather a set form is commanded , to wit , the lords prayer , luke . . and therefore the use of a prescript form of words in prayer devised by man , is not contrary to christs revelation , mat. . . for all that christ hath commanded , may be observed by those who use it ; and it is more agreeable to christs command , to use one prescript form of words of prayer , which he hath directed mat. . , , . rom. . . is more impertinently alledged : for it is not said , the spirit helps our infirmities , by suggesting to us the form of words we shall use : but by making known what things we shall ask in his secret impulse on our spirits , not in ordinary motions of our tongues , and by exciting in us grones and sighes that are unutterable ; and therefore this text is so far from proving , that it is unlawful to use a prescript form of words in publick prayer , because of this promise of the spirit to suggest without meditation , such words as shall be spoken , that it is quite another thing which is here meant . first it is not meant of publick prayers , but of secret private prayers : secondly , it is not meant of private ordinary prayers ; but as cameron in his treatise of the nature and condition of the church , observes , the apostle distinguisheth some , and those singular prayers of believers from the rest ▪ to wit , when the minde constituted in anguish , and the same erected by trust in god , prayes , as wrapt beyond it self ; such as were moses his prayers , who when he is not said to have prayed in scripture , yet god so be speaks him , as if he had cryed ; to wit , the spirit did pray in moses , the understanding prayed not : the spirit , that is , the understanding conceived not distinctly the prayers . and cor. . . ( which is the other place cited by this author ) i will sing with the spirit , i will sing also with the mind . to wit , i believe none sings with the will ; for to sing is a work of the understanding ; but the apostle hath opposed the spirit to the understanding ; because the spirit in that place signifies the understanding so affected , as that it cannot distinctly explain what it hath conceived . therefore in the same chapter above he exhorts , that he who speaketh with tongues ( that is with the spirit ) pray that he may interpret ; that is , not only speak with the spirit but also with the mind . therefore it is manifest that the prayers rom . . cor. . . are meant of such as are in extraordinary raptures and ecstacies , such as the prophets sometimes had ; and st. paul speaks of cor. . , , , . and cannot be applied to the ordinary publike prayers of the whole congregation . thirdly , the help of the spirit cannot be meant of suggesting a form of words , because it is said , the spirit it self maketh intercession for us with groans unutterable ; and cor. . . is such praying in the spirit as may be without the understanding of him that prays or others , even such as he that occupieth the room of the unlearned cannot say amen to , seeing he understandeth not what the speaker saith . fourthly , the praying with the spirit is such as is unfruitful of it self , v. . and not to be affected of it self , nor can be a matter of duty , sith it is motus liberi spiritus , as the school-men speak rightly , a motion of the free spirit , such as lumen propheticum , prophetical illumination is , which is such a gift as that it may be our duty to use it when we have it , not our duty to acquire it . upon all which reasons it is apparent , that these texts are much perverted against the use of a prescript form of words in prayer devised by man , because of the spirits help , rom. . . praying in the spirit , cor. . sith they cannot be meant of ordinary publike prayers , and of praying in words unpremeditated , as immediately suggested by the spirit of god. sect . the admission of vitious persons to communion , justifies not separation . . that wicked and ungodly persons , and their seed , are lawful members of the church , and if they consent not willingly to be so , they may be compelled thereunto : contrary to psal. . . acts . , , . and . cor. . , . and . . answ. this author shews not where the law is , nor when or how the ministers subscribes to a constitution of this instance , not know i where to find either . it is said , psal. . . thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power . but it doth not therefore follow , that men may not be compelled by pecuniary mulcts , or other penalties , to come to common prayer or the communion . for however the question be resolved about liberty of conscience , and toleration in the new testament , yet david meant not that there must none be then compelled ; if so , neither asa nor josiah did well in urging the people to swear to cleave to god , and to stand to it , chron. . . if understood of the times of the new testament it proves that members of the church should be a willing people , but not that no other may be lawful members , or admitted or caused by commands of rulers , or penalties to joyn with the church in gods worship . for then it must be the duty of them that admit members into the church to know that they whom they admit are a willing people , which i think none now can do . it is true acts . . peter exhorted the jews to save themselves from that perverse generation of them that opposed christ , and v. . then they that gladly received his word were baptized ; and v. . the lord added to the church such as should be saved ; but how this proves that wicked and ungodly persons may not be admitted as lawful members of the visible church christian , nor compelled thereunto , i discern not . sure judas was admitted to the apostleship , and to the passover , if not to the lords supper ; ananias and saphira were taken as lawful members , simon magus baptized , we find none blamed for admission to the lords supper , of disorderly corinthians . and for compulsion from idolatrous worship , and other evils , if parents may correct these in their children , princes may do it in their subjects ; and if parents may by penalties compel their children to conform to true religion , so may princes . the separation , acts . is nothing to countenance the separation from the service and assemblies of the church of england : for that separation was not because of the presence of professed christians of vitious life ; but because of divers who were hardned and believed not , but spake evil of the way of christ before the multitude , and so endeavour to disturb them in the practice of christian religion . the words cor. . . whether we read it , be not unequally yoked , or unevenly ballanced to the other side with infidels ; and whether we expound it of marriage , or familiar converse , or ( as the words v. . what agreement hath the temple of god with idols , do plainly evince it to be meant ) do not joyn with the idolaters in their idol temples to eat there things offered to idols , which he had forbidden , cor. . , . to partake of the table of devils , cor. . . it is manifest from , v. . to be meant of professed infidels opposite to him that believeth , and therefore cannot be understood of not joyning in prayer and the lords supper with a professed believer , though of vitious life . nor can the separation from among men , v. . be understood of any other than professed infidels ; nor the the touching the unclean thing be any other then joyning in service of idols mentioned , v. . and therefore is manifestly impertinent to the separation from believers by profession in the service of god by reason of their personal wickedness . the last text cor. . . is less to the purpose : for what shew of consequence is there in this ? christians glorifie god for others professed subjection , or the subjection of their confession , or consent to the gospel of christ ; therefore wicked persons , and such as consent not willingly , are not to be taken for lawful members of the church , nor may be compelled thereto . it is added : . that women may administer the sacrament of baptism , contrary to cor. . . tim. . . matth. . , , . ephes. . . answ. that it is true that in q. elizabeths time baptism by women in supposed case of necessity , was in the english churches either tolerated or allowed ; and the like hath been in the lutheran churches , and mr. hooker in his fifth book of ecclesiastical policy , sect . saith somewhat for it ; yet since the conference at hampton court in the beginning of king james his reign to the rubrick of private baptism in the common prayer book , the words [ lawful minister ] were added , which still continue ; the baptism of women is not allowed by any constitution , nor owned by the present ministers that i know , and therefore this instance is unjustly here recited . yet thus much may be said , that notwithstanding women are excluded from any ordinary ministery of the word or sacraments in the church by the texts alledged , cor. . . tim. . . and from baptizing , mat. . , , . ephes. . . sith we find that philip the evangelist had four daughters that did prophesie , acts . . mention is made of the woman praying or prophesying , cor. . . we cannot exclude them from extraordinary ministry , when god gives such a gift ; nor , sith priscilla instructed apollos , acts . . can we exclude them from private teaching of the most able , if they be fitted thereto . sect. . receiving the lords supper kneeling , is not directly opposite to christs practice or precept , of the abstaining from appearance of evil , thess. . . . that the lords supper is to be received kneeling , which is directly opposite to the practice of christ , in the first institution thereof , mark . , , . and positive precept , as being what hath an appearance of evil in it ( being a gesture used by the papists in the adoration of their bread●n god ) thess. . . as also to the practice of the churches of christ for several hundred years after , to the time of the invention and the introduction of the popish breaden god ; not to mention its contrariety to the judgment and practice of most of the reformed churches ( if not all ) at this day . answ. this constitution and the subscription to it by the present ministers of england , cannot be denied ; nor that it hath been a great stumbling block to many persons , and as great a cause of separation from the communion , as it is ministred in the church of england , as any other thing . but that it is directly opposite to the practice of christ in the first institution of the lords supper , is denied by them . for though it is said , mark . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which we translate [ as they sate ] yet it is denied ▪ that this gesture is mentioned as binding christians to the the same gesture in the use of the lords supper in subsequent times . . because this gesture seems not to have been of choice used by chris● , that thence he might prescribe the same gesture he used in the institution , making his example in this as a constant rule : but it seems rather to have been used occasionally , because it was instituted after the paschal supper , at which they used that gesture , as they did eat , mat. . . mark . . . because st. paul ▪ cor. . . where he saith , he delivered to them what he received of the lord , he omits the mention of christs gesture which he would not have done , if he had judged it binding and necessary to christians . . he mentions the night in which christ was betrayed , v. . that he took the cup after he had supped , v. . luke . ● . and it it is not judged necessary , that the lords supper should be either annually on the night in which he was betrayed , or weekly or monethly in the night , or after supper , no not though it be termed by the apostle the lords supper , cor. . . therefore with 〈◊〉 reason the gesture should be urged by them as obligatory . . if the gesture christ used be obligatory to christians , then they must use the self same gesture he used , but that was neither sitting nor standing , which are used by the opposers of kneeling ; but lying along on beds , as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 used mark . . intimates , and is gathered from joh. . . and other relations of the use of those times , which i think will not be denied , it being by the learned generally acknowledged . see ainsworth on exod. . . and so kneeling is no more directly opposite to the practice of christ in the first institution thereof than other gestures ; nor however it be different from his practice then , can it be truly said to be directly opposite to his practice , unless he had commanded the gesture he then used to be observed , or forbidden by his practice at that time , kneeling . the positive precept thess. . . is urged very importunely , not only in this point of kn●eling at the lords supper , but also very frequently on many other occasions in sermons , writings , and conferences , to deterr persons , especially of scrupulous consciences and weak understandings , from any thing to which persons and practices are disaffected ; and therefore for the setling of such persons judgment , as are not averse to the unlearning their mistakes , as i did many years since in my book of scandalizing , cap. . sect . . somewhat fully open the meaning of that text , so i shall again with some enlargement in this place , it being no grievance to me to write the same things again , but necessary ; and so much the rather , because mr. henry jeans in his second edition of his tract upon this subject , gives me occasion to examine more exactly the meaning of this precept . the chief difficulty is concerning , . the translation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . concerning the appearance of evil which we are to abstain from , and how far we are by that precept bound to abstain from it . . concerning the translation , it is doubted whether it should not be rather read , abstain from every kind or sort of evil , answering to genus and species , as cicero renders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and as porphyry in his isagoge , aristotle , plato , and other logicians use it . that it may be so , saith mr. jeans , mat. flac. illyricus and beza determine ; that it is so , the syriack interpreter , and after him faber , and after them our own great and learned doctour hammond resolve . but i would fain know upon what ground they are thus singular against the current both of an ancient and modern expositors . wherein he might have been satisfied from dr. hammonds own words in his annot. on the place , where having said , the meaning will be from all sort , or the whole kind of evil , from all that is truly so , be it never so small , according to that in pirke avoth , be as careful in the keeping a light , as a heavy commandement : to this sense he cites st. basil on the beginning of the proverbs ▪ theophylact and leon●ius . but saith mr. jeans , it is used but four times in the new testament besides this place , and in none of them in a logical notion . it is true , and it is true also that in none of them it is taken in his sense for an appearance to the understanding , but either for the shape or representation to the sight , or the sight it self , as it is rendred , cor. ● . however it is sufficient for the justifying of the translation , that it is used in that notion not only in other greek authors , but also in ecclesiasticus ch . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 two sorts of men , ch . . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 three sorts of men , and in the lxx version jer. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 four kinds ; which acception is enforced by this reason , which out of st. basil dr. hammond thus expresseth the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , v. . try all things , being taken from merchants , that which is evil , v. . is opposed to that which will upon trial bear the touch , a good merchant will keep that which is good unadulterate metal , but will abstain from all kind of evil , or adulterate ; not from that which appears ill , if it be not ; for to what purpose then is his skill or touchstone ? but from that which is ill , what ever it appear . from all which a reason may be gathered for dr. hammonds exposition , and tremellius his interpretation out of the syriack , ab omni voluntate malâ fugite fly from every evil will ; or as in his marginal note , negotio malo , sive re malâ , evil business or evil thing ; and then kneeling at the lords supper will not be proved contrary to this precept , till it be proved to be of it self an evil thing , and not only what hath an appearance of evil in it . . but if it be yielded that it is to be rendred shew , or appearance , and not sort or kind , yet it may be doubted whether , as the vulgar and tigurin , it be not rather to be read ab omni specie mala , from every shew or appearance which is evil , rather than ab omni specie●mali , from every shew , or appearance of evil , though it be not evil . beza in his annotation on the place saith , we may also interpret it , ab omni specie malâ , from every evil shew or appearance , and that more usual . for otherwise it seems it had been to be written , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the article being adjoyned ; and the precept is then to abstain from that which is an appearance it self evil , not from an appearance not evil , but indifferent , and so not from kneeling at the communion . . for the appearance of evil that we are to abstain from , it may be doubted whether it be meant of an appearance in doctrine or in practice . chrysostome and the greek scholiast , and others apply it only to false doctrines , or lies of false prophets ; as if the apostle had said , though you are not to quench the spirit , v. . nor to despise prophesyings , v. . yet you are to trie all doctrines , and to hold that which is good , v. . and to abstain from that doctrine which appears evil . against this mr. jeans only objects , that an accurate and exact coherence is not necessary in those short precepts : and to understand the words of appearance in practice also suits well with the coherence . which i will not gain-say : but only say if this be granted , yet if the interpretation of abstaining from all appearance of evil in practice , be not necessary , but that it may be limited to doctrine , the allegation of it to prove that kneeling at the lords supper is an appearance of evil , from which we are to abstain , is not cogent , sith it is not in a point of doctrine to which this text may be limited , but in practice ; of which it is uncertain whether this text be meant , and therefore is not directly opposite to it , as is here asserted . . were it granted that this text is meant of the appearance of evil in practice , to which it is not denied interpreters of all sorts do apply it , yet it may be doubted whether the apostle means it of that which appears evil to another , or to a mans self . surely the words and series of the text do best suit with this interpretation , abstain from that which appears to your selves to be evil . for having said , try all things , whether doctrines you hear taught , or practices to which you are moved by your own thoughts or others examples or perswasions , to direct them what to do ; he adds , hold that which is good , that is , what you find upon trial to be good , and abstain from all evil appearance , or appearance of evil , which so appears to you upon your trial . which sense , as it hath the concurrence of good authors , so doth it seem to me to be the genuine meaning of the text. . because it best suits with the coherence and scope of the apostle . for it is plain that the apostle makes these two precepts of holding that which is good , and abstaining from every appearance of evil , the consequents of trying all things , to which it tends : for to what end should men try all things whether doctrines or practices , but that they may hold the one , and abstain from the other ? now as it is undoubted , that they are to hold fast that which upon trial appears to themselves to be good , not what appears to another : for to what purpose should they themselves trye , if they must hold what others think good , and not themselves ? so for evil , they should abstain from what appears evil to themselves who try , not what so appears to others . . the absurdities which follow on this ▪ that i must abstain from all that appears evil to another , seem great and unavoidable . . because it would require an impossible task : for it is impossible for me to know what appears to another evil , sith i cannot know his thoughts , and therefore cannot discern what appears to him good o● evil : nor , if i could know somewhat that appears evil to another , is it possible for me to know all that so appears ? and yet the apostle requires me to abstain from all appearance of evil , and that without exception of any man. which is made impossible , if understood of appearance to others in respect of the thing ; abstaining from all that appears evil to another being impossible , without destroying our being , the eating of our meat , clothing of our bodies , and doing other necessaries for our subsistence , appearing evil to some or other , either out of ignorance , hatred , prejudice , superstition , envy , or some other malignant quality , though the thing we do were never so right . . that which dr. hammond in his treatise of scandal , p. , . observes , that appearance of evil is so uncertain and unconstant a thing , that to abstain from it universim , cannot be the matter of any possible command , and that which is of ill report with one , or of evil appearance to one , may be of good report , and appearance of good to a thousand others , is considerable . for then a person must either do nothing , or act that which is appearance of evil to some , when it appears good to others and to himself , which must of necessity create innumerable perplexities , or rather impossibilities , if the apostles precept be so understood . nor am i satisfied with what mr. jeans saith , this fear will quickly vanish and be discovered to be idle and vain , when anon we shall explain that distinction of appearance of evil into real and imaginary . for ( besides that i conceive that no appearance of evil to another , can be said to be real , per se ex natura operis , from the nature and condition of the fact it self : when that of it self , and in its own nature , is a very probable sign of evil , as he explains it , p. . but that which is from actions of themselves sinful , and then we are not to abstain from them as appearances of evil , but as evil : all other appearances that are from actions lawful or indifferent , are but imaginary ; that is , from others misconceits and censures thereupon , and so his distinction as to this thing , is rather to be accounted vain and idle , than the fear he mentions ) were the distinction good , yet the fear will not quickly vanish nor be discovered to be idle and vain , sith if we must abstain from all appearance to others of our evil , we must abstain from all appearance of evil , whether it be real from the condition of our work of it self , or imaginary by accident through others interpretation , which must cause perplexities unavoidable without number . yea , . that may appear to be evil to others which is our necessary duty , as christs doctrine and actions did to the pharisees , the apostles preaching to the jews ; yea , to good men , as peters going in to cornelius , acts . , . the magistrates punishing some vices according to his duty , may seem evil to good subjects , the obeying laws of governours , commands of parents and masters do often seem evil to some that are sincere-hearted , but weak in judgment ; yea , the necessary defence of truth may be opposed and appear as evil to godly , learned , and otherwise judicious divines . if we must abstain from every appearance of evil to others we must abstain from these duties ; gods laws will cross one another , and we must infringe or suspend one , or otherwise be necessitated to sin : governours must revoke their laws , and subjects cease to obey gods laws ; and so all confusion and anarchy must follow . lastly , were the precept so meant , that we must abstain from every thing of ours , which is an appearance of evil to another , our christian liberty were evacuated ; there being nothing we do which will not appear evil to some or other , and many things lawful and indifferent , will appear evil , even to the best . it s true there are many cases in which we are to forbear our liberty ; of which , before mr. jeans his first edition of his treatise , i wrote in the fourth chapter of my book of scandalizing , but the forbearance of our liberty i did not ascribe barely to the appearance of evil to others , but to the scandal ; that is , ruine or harm to another consequent thereon . and to prevent the frequent abuse of the text , thess. . . i wrote thus , p . lastly if it were granted that the apostle for bids us to abstain from all that which appears to be evil to another , yet no interpreter that i meet with , understands it of such appearance of evil , as is conceited to be such upon some erroneous principles in him that conceives it to be such : or by reason of the meer phansie , or rigid austerity , or evil will , or such like cause of him that thinks it evil : but they usually apply it to such causes or signs of manifest evil , as are means of drawing to some notorious sin ; as going to hear a mass , which is a cause and sign of idolatry ; or wanton dalliance , which is a cause or sign of whoredom . and they apply hereto that saying of julius caesar , that caesars wife should be free not only from evil , but also from the suspition of it . so that even in their intent this scripture is not appliable to this purpose ; as if the apostle did prohibit a christian to use any thing that another thought evil , whether he thought so upon probable reason or no reason , upon some ground or none . and to speak truth , the application of this text in that manner , as it is by some , as if the apostle did forbid us the use of any thing though in different in it self , when it appears as evil to another , without any further restraint , is very absurd and so unreasonable , as that it will bring a yoke upon mens consciences impossible to be born , sith there is scarce any thing a man can do , but some or other infidel or christian , weak or strong in the faith ; orthodox or superstitious , will think it to be evil ; that saying by experience being found true , quot homines tot sententiae , so many men , so many minds : nor shall a mans own conscience only make a thing evil to him but the conscience of any other man in the world. out of all which i gather , that the ministers tenent or practice in receiving the lords supper kneeling , is not directly opposite to this positive precept , as being what hath an appearance of evil in it , unless it be in it self evil , or evil in their own opinion , or else a probable sign and cause of their adoration of the papists breaden god . whereas this author himself in this chapter , p. . does not say , though some would say , that kneeling at the lords supper smells very strong of the popish leven , and is but one peg beneath the adoration of their breaden god . in answering which passage , sect . . of this chapter , i shewed , that it could not be taken for such by any that will candidly and charitably interpret their actions , as for other reasons very clear and convincing , so from the words of the rubrick at the end of the communion , which i here subjoyn . whereas it is ordained in this office for the administration of the lords supper , that the communicants should receive the same kneeling , ( which order is well meant , for a signification of our humble and grateful acknowledgement of the benefits of christ therein given to all worthy r●ceivers , and for the avoiding such prophanation and disorder in the holy communion as might otherwise ensue ) yet , lest the same kneeling should by any persons , either out of ignorance and infirmity , or out of malice and obstinacy , be misconstrued and depraved ; it is here declared , that thereby no adoration is intended or ought to be done , either unto the sacramental bread and wine , there bodily received , or unto any corporal presence of christs natural flesh and blood . for the sacramental bread and wine remain still in their very natural substances , and therefore may not be adored ( for that were idolatry to be abhorred of all faithful christians . ) and the natural body and blood of our saviour christ are in heaven , and not here ; it being against the truth of christs natural body , to be at one time in more places then one . thus the common prayer book . that which is said , that the receiving of the lords supper kneeling , is a gesture used by the papists in the adoration of their breaden god , is denied by dr. john burges in his treatise of the lawfulness of kneeling in the act of receiving the lords supper , cap. . p. . & p. . of the rejoynder , where he thus saith : with us the bishops or ministers communicate kneeling as well as the people : but with the papists , the pope , when himself performeth the office , receiveth sitting , as being a type of christ , the mass priests receive standing reverently , by the canon of the mass : and for this he cites in the margin , ord. rom. apud b●bl . pat. col. ●om . . p. . colum. . liter . ● . edit . colon. . the people indeed receive it kneeling as we do , as did also the priest , till such time as the doctrine of transubstantiation b●got the canon of his standing , for fear of shedding ought . but i deny that kneeling in the very time of receiving , was ever in the church of rome any rite of , or for adoration of the sacrament it self , or any creature , and therefore not idolatrous . i deny not the errour of their minds , concerning that they received into their mouths . but i deny , that they ever intended adoration of the species at that moment of time when they took it in their mouths : but then turned themselves to god rather , to give him thanks , which was not uncomely . of which he gives three reasons . . because it was never yet enjoyned by any pope that they should then kneel . . in the mass there is no direction for adoration of the sacrament when it is received . . for that it is an incongruous thing in their superstition , to adore a thing which is not higher than their polls when they adore it , because they cannot be said to humble themselves to that which is lower than they can cast themselves . ( to this last reason nothing is returned by dr. ames in his triplic . ch . . p. . and dallaeus adv . lat . cult . l. . c. . id quod adoratur eo , à quo adoratur celsius ac sublimius aliquid esse debere insito à natura ipsa sensu omnes mortales confitentur , atque consentiunt . ) to which is to be added , that kneeling is used according to the common prayer book with prayer to god , and at the receiving of the wine as well as at the bread , which are not so with the papists , and therefore kneeling is not to be taken as adoration of the bread , as the papists do . and for that which is said , that the lords supper is to be received kneeling , is directly opposite to the practice of the churches of christ , for several hundred years after christ , to the time of the invention and introduction of the popish breaden-god ; it is denyed by the same dr. burges in that and other following chapters , by the bishop of rochester , paybody , and others , about which , and the judgment and practice of most of the reformed churches at this day , it is not necessary that i should make inquiry ; sith if it were so , yet it proves nor , that the present ministers of england , do oppose the kingly and prophetical office of christ , by their submitting to kneeling at the lords supper . sect. . forbidding to marry or eat flesh at certain times , are not characters of apostates , as tim. . . is meant . it is added , what should i mention the constitutions and canons before pointed to , wherein 't is forbidden to any to preach , not licensed by the bishops thereunto , to marry or eat flesh at certain times , with many more of the like nature ; all directly contrary to the soveraign edicts of christ , and some of them evident characters of the last dayes apostates , tim. . . from whom saints are warned by the lord to turn aside , ver . . these we have produced , carry an undeniable evidence with them , that the present ministers of england do own , submit , and subscribe to orders and ordinances , that are contrary to the revelation of christ , and therefore deny his prophetical and kingly office. answ. to that of forbidding to preach , answer is made in the examining this chapter sect. . forbidding to marry , and commanding to abstain from flesh at certain times upon politick considerations , or for the better observing a religious fast , are not characters of the apostates , tim. . . but may be justified by such passages of scripture , as jonah . . joel . . cor. . . dan. . . nor do i think the most zealous separatists , but would restrain from marriage and flesh , the members of their churches , in the times of solemn fasts , or would count it evil , that the magistrate forbids for civil ends , abstinence from some kind of food ; which being the case of the prohibitions of the civil laws of england , rather than the canons of the church , which make it not a sin against god to marry or eat flesh then , is unjustly made the character of apostates , tim. . . which is more justly charged on the monks and popish votaries , who account it sinful to marry ; as if it were unchastness , and more lawful to use concubines than wives for priests ; as if they joyned with pope siricius , terming such , persons in the flesh , and such as could not please god , and place more holiness in eating fish than flesh ; which sort of people are very accurately proved to be there characterized by mr. joseph mede in his book of the doctrine of daemons ; intituled , the apostasie of the later times . that the present ministers of england are such , or that precept which is ( not tim. . . ) tim. . . from such turn aside , belongs to them , is not proved by this author , nor that they do own , submit , and subscribe to orders and ordinances that are contrary to the revelation of christ , or deny his prophetical and kingly office. french protestants in the synod of charenton . chap. . art . . the church shall not solemnise marriage in the dayes on the which the lords supper is administred , nor on the dayes of a publick fast. see this crimination retorted on the separatists by paget in his arrow , ch . . sect . . p. . n. . yet he hath not done with this argument . sect. . no such headship is owned by the present ministers , as is a denial of christs offices . to all that hitherto hath been offered in this matter , we shall yet add , as a further demonstration of the truth we are in the disquisition of . arg. . those that acknowledge another head over the church beside christ , deny his prophetical and kingly office : but the present ministers of england do own and acknowledge another head over the church beside christ : therefore . if the assertion of another king in england , that as the head thereof hath power of making , and giving forth laws to the free-born subjects therein , be a denial of his kingly authority ( as no doubt it is ) the major ( or first proposition ) cannot be denied . if christ be the alone king of his church ( as such ) he is its alone head and lawgiver . if he hath not by any statute-law established any other headship in , and over his church , to act in the holy things of god , from and under him , besides himself ; who sees not the assertion of such an headship , carries with it a contempt and denial of his authority ? if there be any such headship of the institution of christ , let us know when and where it was instituted ; whether such a dominion and soveraignty over the subjects of his kingdom , with respect to worship , be granted by them to any of the sons of men , absolutely or conditionally : if the first , then must the church ( it seems ) be governed by persons casting off the yoke of christ , trampling upon his royal commands and edicts : for so it 's possible it may fall out those that a●tain this headship may do ; as it 's evident many popes of rome ( the great pretenders hereunto ) have done . if the second let one iota be produced from the scripture , of the institution of such an headship , with the conditions annexed thereunto , and we shall be so far from denying of it , that we shall cheerfully pay , whatever respect , homage , or duty , by the laws of god or man , may righteously be expected from us . but this will not , we humbly conceive , in hast be performed ; and that because . the scripture makes mention of no other head , in and over the church , but christ , ephes. . . & . , cor. . . . if there be any other head , he must either be within or without the church : the latter will not be affirmed ; christ had not sure so little respect unto his flock , as to appoint wolves and lions to be their governours and guides in matters ecclesiastical , nor can the former ; for all in the church , are brethren , have no dominion over each others faith or conscience , luke . . . if any other be head of the church but christ , then is the church the body of some others besides christ : but this is absurd and false , not to say impious and blasphemous . . there was no head of the church in the apostles dayes , but christ. . if any be head of the church beside christ , they either have their headship from an original right seated in themselves ; or by donation from christ. to assert the first , were no less then blasphemy ; if the second , let them shew when , and where , and how they came to be invested in such a right , and this controversie will be at an end . . he that is asserted in scripture to be the head of the church , is said to govern , feed , and nourish it to eternall life , is her spouse and husband , cor. . . in which sense , none of the sons of men , one or other , can be the head thereof ; and yet of any other head , the scripture is wholly silent . but of this matter thus far . it cannot by any sober person be denied , but an owning of a visible head over the church , having power of making and giving forth laws with respect to worship ( such an headship not being of the institution of christ ) must needs be a denial of his soveraign authority and power . answ. this author in this argument , seems to me , to hide his meaning , as they say the fish saepia doth , by casting out some black colour , whereby the water is infected , and she not discerned . a headship over the church besides christ's , he makes the present ministers to acknowledge in some of the sons of men , but who they are he means , what the headship is , and how it is opposite to christs kingly and prophetical office , is not plainly expressed ; nor in what subscription , oath , or conformity they own , and submit to it . headship is a metaphor , and sometime notes origination , vital influence , direction or guidance , superiority , power , authority , or government , which may be in many things . no minister i think gives such a headship to any of the sons of men , as to christ over his whole body , either so as to derive their being members , having their faith , or eternal life , or dominion over their consciences , or sovereign power , authority to rule or dispose of soul or body , as christ hath : and that which the bishop of rome claims over the universal church , is utterly disclaimed by the present ministers . the headship which is made a denial of christs headship , ascribed by the present ministers to some person on earth , is expressed in various phrases ; a headship in , and over his church , to act in the holy things of god , a dominion and soveraignty over the subjects of christs kingdom , with respect to worship , a visible head over the church having power of making and giving forth laws with respect to worship ; which it 's said they own by conformity in worship to laws and edicts , made and given forth by the sons of men , as heads and governours of the church , th●y own an headship ; that is , not in all things subordinate to christ , having a a law making and law-giving power touching institutions of worship , that never came into his heart , headship over the church to make laws , introduce constitutions of their own framing in matters relating to worship . this can be conceived to be ascribed by the present ministers to no other than the bishops , or convocation , or the king , whose supremacy in causes spiritual or ecclesiastical , seems to be that headship here meant by the answer to the second objection . what headship is ascribed to the bishops , or convocation , in making laws or constitutions about worship , to wit , the accidentals thereof undetermined , in order to the orderly decent performance of it to edification by the present ministers , hath been examined all along in the answer to this book , specially to the . and . chapters , sect. . and as yet no such headship is proved by this author to be ascribed by the present ministers , as amounts to a denial of the prophetical and kingly offices of christ : that the taking of the oath of the kings supremacie , or submission to his edicts about matters of worship , is not owning such a headship , is further to be cleared . and first i deny his major , that those who acknowledge another head over the church beside christ , by acknowledging the king as supream governour in causes ecclesiastical or spiritual ( as the oath of supremacy is proved by me in my book of the serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy , ought to be understood ) particularly that he , or with him the bishops or convocation , may make laws or constitutions in the accidentals of worship undetermined in scripture , observing the rules of order , decency , edification , deny christs prophetical and kingly office : and to the proofs of it , i answer : this author doth most injuriously suppose the power and authority asserted to the king of england in the oath of supremacie , to make laws or canons about the worship of god with the counsel of a synod , or convocation , or parliament , is making another king besides christ over his church . for there is no such thing acknowledged thereby , which is proper to christ ; to wit , to be the universal monarch of the whole church , to prescribe what faith or worship shall be given to god , to be infallible interpreter of gods will , and the supreme judge and lawgiver , who is able to save and to destroy ; or which is arrogated by the popes of rome , and thus acknowledged by hart the jesuite , in his conference with dr. john rainold in the tower of london , ch . . div . . in these words . the power which we mean to the pope by this title of the supream head is , that the government of the whole church of christ throughout the world doth depend of him : in him doth lye the power of judging and determining all causes of faith ; of ruling councils , as president , and ratifying their decrees ; of ordering and confirming bishops and pastors ; of deciding causes brought him by appeals from all the coasts of the earth ; of reconciling any that are excommunicate ; of excommunicating , suspending , or inflicting other censures and penalties on any that offend , yea , on princes and nations ; finally of all things of the like sort for governing of the church , even whatsoever toucheth either preaching of doctrine , or practising of discipline in the church of christ. which his practice sheweth to be such as to dispense with the laws of god , as by legitimating incestuous marriages , releasing of lawful oaths , granting indulgences , releasing out of purgatory , canonizing of saints , consecrating of things for the expulsion of devils , with many more ; and i● it be true which is related in a book lately printed , to have been asserted by the party of jesuites in the colledge of clermont in france , that the pope is not only infallible in matters of faith , but also in matters of fact , he is elevated to that height as to accomplish the prophesie which is , thess. . . but the present ministers of england do abhorr the giving such power to the king , bishops , or convocation ; yea , it is disclaimed by the king , bishops , and convocation , as blasphemous ; and that power they ascribe to the church , is set down in the . article of religion , every particular or national church hath authority to ordain , change , and abolish ceremonies , or rites of the church , ordained only by mans authority , so that all things be done to edifying . and that which they acknowledge belonging to the king as the only supreme governour of the realm of england , and of all other his highness dominions and countries , as well in all spiritual or ecclesiastical things or causes as temporal , is thus explained : artic. . we give not to our princes the ministring either of gods word , or of the sacraments ; the which thing the injunctions also lately set forth by elizabeth our queen do most plainly testifie : but that only prerogative , which we see to have been given alwayes to all godly princes in holy scriptures by god himself , that is that they should rule all estates and degrees committed to their charge by god , whether they be ecclesiastical or temporal , and restrain with the civil sword the stubborn and evil doers . which is so far from being no other than the headship pleaded for by the church of rome , ( as this author saith , p. . ) that to shew the calumny of it , i need use no other words than those of dr. john owen in his answer to a popish book , entituled , fiat lux , ch . . p. . the declaration made in the dayes of king henry the . that he was head of the church of england , intended no more , but that there was no other person in the world from whom any jurisdiction to be exercised in this church over his subjects might be derived , the supream authority for all exteriour government being vested in him alone ; that this should be so , the word of god , the nature of the kingly office , and the ancient laws of this realm , do require . and i challenge our author to produce any one testimony of scripture , or any one word out of any general council , or any one catholick father or writer to give the least countenance to his assertion of two heads of the church in his sense ; an head of influence , which is jesus himself ; and an head of government , which is the pope , in whom all the sacred hierarchy ends : this taking of one half of christs rule and headship out of his hand , and giving it to the pope , will not be salved by that expression thrust in by the way under him ; for the headship of influence , is distinctly ascribed unto christ ; and that of government , to the pope ; which evidently asserts , that he is not in the same manner head unto his church in both senses , but he in the one , and the pope in the other . i add that mr. philip nye in his book of the lawfulness of the oath of supremacy , and power of the civil magistrate in ecclesiastical affairs and subordination of churches thereunto , printed . though not published , hath these words , p. . for persons and causes spiritual or ecclesiastical , that are properly and indeed such ; as first table-duties , which contain matters of faith and holiness , and what conduceth to the eternal welfare of mens souls : an interest and duty there is in the civil magistrate more su● , to give commands , and exercise lawful jurisdiction about things of that nature . and for persons , there is no man for his graces so spiritual , or in respect of his g●fts and office , so eminent , but he is under the government of the civil powers in the place where he lives , as much in all respects as any other subject . yea , in the apology of the brownists , printed . these words are alledged for their common defence out of the letter of henry barrow to a lady ; . p. . i have every where in my writings acknowledged , all duty and obedience to her majesties government , as to the sacred ordinance of god , the supreme power he hath set over all causes and persons , whether ecclesiastical or civil , within her dominions . out of these things i infer , that asserting the kings supremacy , or the power of making laws owned by the ministers of england , is not making another king besides christ over his church , nor ascribing such a headship to the king , or governours of the church , as is pleaded for by the church of rome ; and that for the kings supremacy , those that dissent about ceremonies and church government do acknowledge it as it is meant in the oath taken by the ministers . concerning which supremacy , if what i have written in the little treatise printed . intituled , a serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremncy , in the proof of the fourth and fifth propositions , be not sufficient to produce from the scripture , the institution of such an headship with the conditions annexed thereunto ; methinks dr. rainold his argument , which convinced hart in the conference with him , ch . . div . . and such other writings as have been written by bilson , mason , bramhall , and many more , should have prevented this calumny of making thereby another head besides christ equivalent to a denial of his kingly office. and to his objections , i answer , . to the first , that we use not the title of head , but supreme governour ; yet when it was used , it meaning the same , it might be used as it was given to saul , sam. . . though not as it it is given to christ , ephes. . . and . , cor. . . nor is the title of head so appropriate to christ , but that it is given to the man over the woman , cor. . . to the husband over the wife , ephes. . . and may , in a qualified sense in respect of government , be given to the king over the church in his dominions , as to saul , sam. . . to the chief of families , as parents or others of greatest authority or esteem ; as the heads of houses , exod. . . in which sense parliament men , judges , ecclesiastical governours , may be termed heads of the church or state they represent , or are subject to them . to the second , though all in the church are brethren , have no dominion o● authority over each others faith or conscience ; yet neither are all equal in the church , nor doth luke . . prove it . the apostles sure had power over the members of the church to command , cor. . . to give orders , cor. . . to judge , cor. . . though no superiority over one another . and though the king , and bishops , or convocation are brethren ; yet are they superiours , rulers , rom. . . heb. . . and though they have no dominion or authority over each others faith or conscience , so as that their laws shall bind the conscience immediately , and must be obeyed as precisely and fully , as the laws of god and christ ; yet their laws , edicts , commands , canons , or rules , even in the worship of god , in things undetermined by god , and according to such rules , as the scripture directs them to observe , bind in some sort the conscience ; as the commands of parents and masters by virtue of the authority given them by god , rom. . . peter . , , , , . though not in respect of the things commanded by them . to the third , the church is not the body of any other than christ as joyned to any , or depending on any , or subject to any absolutely as unto christ ; yet may particular churches in respect of that ministration and government which their governours afford them , be said to be the bodies of their governors , as a wife is in some r●spect the body of her husband , ephes. , . nor is there any impiety or blasphemy in so saying : and in this sense the apostles and bishops or elders , were heads of the church in the apostles dayes , which answers the fourth . to the fifth , their headship is by donation from christ in the places often alledged ; and in answer to the sixth , though not as christ is termed the husband of believers , cor. . . can any be termed husband , nor to govern , feed and nourish to eternal life , as christ by influence of his spirit , or power to give eternal life , cor. . john . . nor their father , as god is said to be ephes. . . cor. . . jam. . . joh. . . yet the apostles and all others may be in a qualified sense , who are instruments to convert or build up others by the word or discipline , be termed their fathers in christ , cor. . and to govern , feed , and nourish them to eternal life , as thess. . , . the apostle saith of himself : whence i conclude , in answer to his major , that notwithstanding what he hath said , it may by a sober person be denyed , that an owning of a visible head , or heads over the church , having power of making and giving forth laws with respect to worship , as the king , parliament , bishops , or convocation do , may be no denial of christs soveraign authority and power . le ts view that which remains . sect. . conformity to laws opposite to christ's , proves not owning another king coordinate to him . that ( saith he ) the present ministers of england do own and submit to such an headship , is undeniable : witness their subscription , oath , conformity in worship , to laws and edicts , made and given forth by the sons of men , as heads and governours of the church ; which are not onely foreign to , but ( as hath been already demonstrated ) lift up themselves in opposition against the royal institutions of christ. this being matter of fact , the individuals charged herewith , must either acquit themselves by a denial of what they are impleaded as guilty , or prove what they do is not criminous , but lawful to be done . the former being too notoriously known to admit of a denial , 't is the latter must be insisted on : what is therein offered , is nextly to be considered . answ. though i cannot justifie all that the present ministers of england do in their subscriptions , and conformity , as if it were no way criminous , but in every thing lawful to be done ; nor perhaps will all of them plead so for themselves , as being mindful of the psalmists words , psal. . . who can understand his errours ? cleanse thou me from secret faults . yet for the oaths of supremacy and allegiance , which are the only oaths i know they have taken , as i have , so i do still plead , that the taking of them is not criminous , but may be lawfully done . and i further say , that were it yielded that the laws and edicts made and given forth by those sons of men , he means , as heads and governours of the church , not only foreign to but ( which i utterly deny he hath demonstrated ) that they lift up themselves in opposition against the royal institutions of christ , yet might the ministers be free from that which he chargeth them with , as denying christs kingly office , and setting up another king besides christ , as his peer ; sith it is clear , that such conformity and subscription may be out of weakness or errour , not out of faction or rebellion ; nor doth he who conforms or subscribes to the laws or edicts of an usurper own his power , when he yields subjection to his commands . those who obeyed the laws of richard the . of england , did not thereby acknowledge him to be the king of right : nor do all that submit to the decrees of the trent council , or the popes edicts , either own the one or the other as being just , or the power as rightly claimed : but for peace sake submit to what they cannot remedy . sect. . headship of the church under christ , is not monstrous . it is added : this is that some say , obj. . that they acknowledge another head besides christ , cannot indeed be denied : but the headship owned and acknowledged by them , is an headship only under christ. to which we answer : answ. . but this headship is either of christs appointment , or 't is not : if it be , let it be shewn where it was instituted by him , and ( as we said ) this controversie is at an end : if it be not , the assertion of such an headship , even in subordination to christ over his churches as such , hinders not ; but persons owning , submitting thereunto , are guilty of denying the kingly office of christ. . the headship pleaded for by the church of rome , is no other . . 't is not so , as is pretended , they own an headship that is not in all things subordinate to christ , having a law-making , and law-giving power touching institutions of worship , that never came into his heart , are flatly against his appointments , as hath been proved . . one head in subordination to another , doth as really make the body a monster , as two heads conjoined . answ. . the term [ head of the church ] is not used in the oath of supremacy , but supreme governour ; and this is agreeable to scripture , rom. . . tim. . . pet. . . and how out of these and other scriptures , his government is proved in that sense , in which it is asserted by the ministers , is shewed by me in my book of the serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy in the proof of the fourth and fifth propositions ; and if the church as the church be comprised under every soul , rom. . . they are governours of the church as the church ; that is , as they are a company of m●n that profess faith in christ. not as if we acknowledged that kings had a lawful power to prescribe another faith or worship besides christs ; but as physitians are said to be subject to the king as physitians , because he can prescribe rules with penalties in the use of that art they practise , according to hippocrates his aphorisms ; so the king is governour over the church as such , by prescribing rules about the profession and exercise of that faith and worship they learn only from christ , in things undetermined by him , and serving for the ends which they are to aim at . nor do i perceive that in so doing any more i● usurped by them , than is ascribed by this author unto the church , from mat. . , . mistaken by him ; and therefore owning such a power under christ , as given to the church , is as much a denial of christs kingly office , as when it is given to the king ; yea , it is more absurd to ascribe such a power to the church over the church as such , than to ascribe it to the king ; it being a confounding of governours and governed , head and body , which were monstrous . . though i deny not that the headship pleaded for by the church of rome , is pretended to be under christ , and the pope terms himself vicar of christ ; yet it is in the foregoing section shewed , that they usurp a power not only equal , but in some respects rather superiour to christs , in their dispensing with the keeping of lawful oaths , and allowing of incestuous marriages , none of which is claimed by those whom the ministers acknowledge as heads besides christ ; and therefore it is false , that the headship pleaded for by the church of rome , is no other than what the ministers own . . his proofs have been examined before , and shewed defective . . the terms head and body being used only metaphorically ; there 's no more monstrosity in making a head under a head , than in making a governour under a governour , used by st. peter epist . , . or making more fathers of the church one under another . sect. . the kings supremacy is such as was allowed the kings of israel . he ends this chapter thus . if it be said , object . . that the kings of israel were the heads successively , of the then church ; and therefore a visible headship over the churches of christ in the new testament is lawful . we answer , . that betwixt the oeconomy of the law and gospel , there is a vast disproportion ; many things were lawful in that day , which to do , or subject to now , were no less than a denial of christ come in the flesh . . the kings of israel were types of christ. . that the kings of israel were heads of the church , is false . god was its alone head and king. hence their historian saith , their government was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and when they would needs chuse a king , god said , they rejected him to whom even as to their political head , a sicle was paid yearly as a tribute , called , the sicle of the sanctuary . true indeed , as they were a political body , they had visible political governours , who when they ceased , their policy was at an end ; but that these had any headship over them to make any laws , introduce constitutions of their own framing in matters relating to worship , will never be proved . answ. . that there is any such disproportion between the oeconomy of the law and gospel , as makes the same power , which the kings of israel exercised lawfully , to be now unlawful to the kings of england , is falsely and vainly asserted ; sith there is nothing therein ceremonial and temporary , peculiar to the jewish oeconomy , as appears in that all nations have ascribed to their chief rulers dominion about things sacred , as is proved by me in the assertion of the fifth proposition in my book of the serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy , from that which is ascribed to cyrus , isa. . . and . . to the king of niniveh , jon. . , . and others , ezra . , &c. and . . &c. dan. . . & . . and that christianity alters not civil relations or estates , cor , . . parents and masters have the like power , ephes. . , . gen. . , . which things are more fully vindicated by mr. selden in his first book de syned . hugo grotius in his book de imperio summarum potestatum circa sacra , and others . . it is true , that david is made a type of christ , but that all the kings of judah , much less , that all the kings of israel are made types of christ ; or that christ alone was to have that power which they used , or that the kingly power used by them , ceased upon the coming of christ in the flesh , are all most palpably false ; sith the scriptures of the new testament do plentifully assert the dominion of civil powers , and our lord christ himself , and his apostles yielded subjection to them . . that the church of israel was different from the kingdom or people of israel , is one of the placita or proper opinions of those who would establish from that example an ecclesiastical independent government in the church distinct from the civil government of the state. but neither the arguments of mr. gillespy in his aarons rod blossoming , book . c. . nor any other i have met with , convince me that it was so . sure both david and solomon , and other kings did exercise power over ecclesiastical persons , as in deposing abiathar ; and in ecclesiastical things , about keeping the passover , chron. . . & . . and many other things , which were approved by god , being related in the holy story without reproof , as arguments of their integrity . and therefore if the kings of israel were , as it is said of saul , sam. . . heads of the tribes of israel , they were also heads of the church of israel , being governours of the same persons , whether of the tribe of levi , or of other tribes , and about the same things , to wit , those of the worship of god , though they were not to meddle with the peculiar ministry of the priests and levites . it is true , that god alone was the head and king of the church of israel in some sense . he was their sole , supreme , absolute king , that had power legislative to assign what faith , worship , judicatories , and what other things were necessary for that congregation , originally and of himself de jure communi , of right common to all nations , as their creatour ; and de jure speciali , out of right peculiar to that people , as being brought forth out of the land of egypt , lev. . . and being joyned in covenant with him , were not to set up a king over them without his appointment ; and de facto , he was actually their sole king ( till the people weary of samuels government , because of his sons iniquity , and out of fear of nahash king of the ammonites , desired a king as other nations ) because moses , joshuah , and all the judges were immediately chosen by god , and raised up extraordinarily for a time to do special services without ordinary succession ; and accordingly acted and ruled by extraordinary immediate motions and revelations from god ; in which respects the government of the israelites before sauls reign , was not unfitly termed by josephus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , gods rule ; and when they would needs chuse a king , or have samuel to make them a king to judge them like all the nations , sam. . , , . god said they rejected him , that he should not reign over them , v. . where the desire of having a king is not simply condemned as unlawful , nor because they desired a k●ng over the church as such ; as if they might lawfully enough have desired a king over them as a political head , but not as head of the church as such ; for neither is there any intimation of any such limitation of their desire ; but on the contrary , they desired that they might also be like all the nations , and that their king might judge them , and go out before them and fight their battels , sam. . . nor is there the least hint of any reprehension of their desire , that they would have a king over them , as a church , to appoint them religion and worship as other people ; neither was it spoken that they rejected god , as though the lord did not reign where there is set up a monarchical government ; for it is gods ordinance , and kings have their power and authority from him , according to that , prov. . , . by me kings reign , and princes decree justice , &c. and they are his deputies and lieutenants , by whom he ruleth . in which regard the people might have lawfully desired a king , if they had done it with upright hearts o● lawful grounds to good and warrantable ends , in a right manner , and in due time for the lord had promised , that when they were settled in the land of canaan , he would ( when he thought good ) set a king over them , out of whose loyns the messiah should come , and also sheweth how he would have him qualified , and what he required of him , deut. . , . and he had promised unto abraham , that kings should come out of him , gen. . . and jacob in his prophetical blessing saith , that the scepter should not depart from judah , nor a law-giver from between his feet , until shiloh did come , i. e. the messias , gen . . and david speaking of himself as a type of christ , saith psal. . . yet have i set my king upon my holy hill of zion . and therefore this is not simply condemned as a sin in it self to desire a king ; but because they did it with an ill mind , affecting innovation , as being weary of gods government which he had established , till himself pleased to change it ; and in a pr●posterous and tumultuous manner , before he had given any intimation of his pleasure , and to a wrong and evil end , that they might be like to the heathen nations ; and out of their confidence in a king , as able to protect them ; and their diffidence in god , as insufficient to defend them in his own way , unless he would be directed in a course of their prescribing ; and finally , because they would not wait upon him for the accomplishment of his word in his own due time , but with all importunity press him to do at their own pleasure . thus the assembly annotations . whence the impertinency of the allegation of this text either against kingly government , or their headship over the church is manifested . no● is it more to the purpose which is added , that to god even as to their political head , a sicle was paid yearly as a tribute , called the sicle of the sanctuary . for . if this payment be meant of that which is mentioned , exod. . , , , , . it doth not appear by the text , that it was a yearly tribute paid to god as their political head ; but a tax put on them when moses took the summ of the children of israel after their number , then they should give every man a ransome for his soul unto the lord when he numbred them , that there might be no plague among them ; half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary , the offering of the lord to make an attonement for the souls , which he was to appoint for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation , that it might be a memorial unto the children of israel . but if it be yielded that it was after made a yearly tribute , as the jewish doctors say , and a perpetual ordinance according to what mr. ainsworth on exod. . out of maimony cites , and that it continued so till the destruction of jerusalem , as josephus relates in book . ch . . of the jewish war ; yet this proves not , that it was paid to god under that notion as to their political head. it is true , that the tribute or custome called didrachma , that is , shekels mentioned mat. . , . is conceived by very many learned men to be that which was paid to the lord for the use of the temple as a tribute to him ; which is largely argued by cameron in his praelections on that text , with whom diodate , hugo grotius , dr. hammond concurr ; and before them hilarius cited by maldonat , who thinks it was paid to the romans , and cites hierome , bede , and of this mind are many others , as beza , piscator , pareus . but if camerons opinion were certain , yet it may seem rather to be paid to god as head of the church , then as a political head , as this author speaks ; sith it was paid for the service of the temple . . were that which this author saith , granted him , it should rather se●ve against him than for him . for if it were paid to god as their political head , it rather proves god to be the alone political head , and so against that which he saith , [ true indeed , as they were a political body , they had visible , political governours , who when they ceased , their policy was at an end ] than that god was the churches alone head and king , and that it is false that the kings of israel were heads of the church ; and therefore his sayings do interfer : that the kings of israel had a headship over them to make laws , introduce constitutions of their own framing in matters relating to worship , is conceived to be proved from chron. . , . & . . & . , , , , . & . , . with many more , which i find not yet to be enervated by the answers i have met with . i proceed to examine that which follows . chap. . arg. . sect. . false doctrine only makes a false prophet not to be heard . he thus writes , argument . those who have the characters and properties of false prophets and priests upon them , are not to be heard but separated from : but the present ministers of england have the characters of false prophets and priests upon them : therefore . the major ( or first proposition ) stands upon too firm a basis to be quickly removed : nor will any attempt so to do , christ having charged his to beware of such , mat. . . to take heed that none deceive them , mat. , , , , . not to believe every spirit , but to try the spirits , because many false prophets are gone out in the world , joh. . . not to receive such into their houses , joh. . to watch against them , acts . , , . with much more that might be said ( if needful ) for its confirmation , is a sufficient evidence of the truth thereof . but herein the parties litigant are at a perfect agreement . answ. it is true the major is yielded , if the hearing be meant of hearing them of choice or ▪ with reception , and separation from them in respect of that , wherein they are false prophets and priests . but if it should fall out , that one that should as balaam at one time prophesie as he did , numb . . and . at another time through his counsel cause the committing of a trespass against the lord , as in the matter of peor , numb . . . hold the doctrine of balaam , who taught balack to cast a stumbling block before the children of israel , to eat things sacrificed unto idols , and to commit fornication , rev. . . or as caiaphas being high priest that year , at one time prophesie that jesus should die for that nation , and not for that nation only ▪ but that also he should gather together in one the children of god , that were scattered abroad . joh. . , . at another time say , that christ had spoken blasphemy , mat. . such a one may be heard & joyned with in the former , though not in the latter . whence it follows , that it is not the character or property of the man , who is a false prophet , or a false priest , that is the reason , why he is not to be heard , or is to be separated from ; but his false doctrine , and his evil counsel , whereby he seeks to thrust us away from the lord our god , deut. . , , . or the damnable heresies denying the lord that bought them , as it is pet. . . turning the grace of god into lasciviousness , and denying the only lord god and our lord jesus christ , jude . that do denominate them false prophets or false priests , and bind us to a refusal of hearing them , or joyning with them in that communion , in which we cannot partake without fellowship in their errour , false worship , or other sin . and this is it , which is to be collected from the texts alledged ; not that we are to refuse to hear persons , or separate from them because of their personal vices , or irregular obtruding themselves into their places ; but in respect of their pernicious doctrine , and impious worship , by which we are in danger to be ensnared and defiled . we are bidden , beware of false prophets , mat. . . but no where is any called a false prophet , but from his false doctrine . and therefore though his counterfeit shews of piety be mentioned as the bait to catch men , yet the false doctrine is the hook they are to beware of ; as in like manner st. paul warns , rom. . , . and st. peter , pet. . , , . and thus in the places cited , where christ bids take heed that no man deceive them ; he alledgeth the reason : for many shall come in my name , saying , i am christ , and shall deceive many , mat. . , . and v. . if any man shall say unto you , lo , here is christ , or there : believe it not , for there shall arise false christs , and false prophets , and shall shew great signs and wonders , insomuch that ( if it were possible ) they shall deceive the very elect , v. . the false prophets that were gone out into the world , joh. . . were they that confessed not that jesus christ is come in the flesh , v. . the person not to be received into house , joh. . . is he that brought not the doctrine of christ , v. . that confessed not that jesus christ is come in the flesh , who is the deceiver and antichrist , v. . those that the ephesian elders were to watch against , acts . were grievous wolves that should enter in among them , not sparing the flock ; and men arising of their own selves , speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them , v. , . and thus farr i agree to the major ; let us see how he proves the ministers to be such . sect. . the ministers not false prophets , because not sent , as jer. . . rom. . . is meant . 't is the minor proposition , saith he , that is judged by some to come short of a sufficient substraction , viz. that the present ministers of england have the properties and characters of false prophets and priests upon them . this we doubt not , by a serious observation of the characters are given of such in the scriptures by the holy ghost , will to any ordinary understanding be made exceeding perspicuous and evident , the signal characters of whom are , . that they run before they are sent , jer. . . that a mission from the lord is of the essence of a lawful ministry ; that whoever wants such a mission is no officer of christ , but a false prophet , and minister of antichrist , may hence rationally , at least by way of analogy , be deduced , is evident : which also exactly accords with what is asserted by the apostle , rom. . . that the present ministers of england want such a mission , hath already been demonstrated , and we shall not actum agere . in a word , when it shall be proved that they have received their authority from christ , either immediately or mediately , from any rightly constituted church of christ , or by succession from the church in the wilderness , we shall acknowledge them to be ministers of christ , and look upon our selves as obliged to pay them all honour and duty , that as such , we are charged in scripture to do : but if they have nothing else to plead for themselves but what is usually instanced in by them , a succession from the church of rome : that apostate church having lost her churchship , and therewith all lawful power for the sending forth officers into the churches of christ , we shall not fear to say , that they are such as are characterized here by the prophet , persons that run before they are sent . answ. a man that meant honestly , and had any spark of charity , justice , or ingenuity , would not charge so deeply the whole order of men throughout a nation containing many thousands of men of years , breeding , parts , and by reason of their calling to be reverenced ; and some of them , by his own confession , good men ; as being false prophets , who by the law of moses , deut. . . were to die , and as false priests without some irrefragable proof , unless he had learned that accursed art of him in terence , calumniare audacter , aliquid haerebit ; or having once past the bounds of modesty were resolved to be gnaviter impudens . but i must confess , that however he thinks , that by a serious observation of the characters , which are given in the scriptures by the holy ghost , it will be made exceeding perspicuous and evident ; yet to my understanding he hath made neither of his charges perspicuous or evident in any degree . for , . his charge is against all the present ministers of england , and therefore his proof should have been of that , which all , even the best of them are guilty of , taken from that which they all unanimously agree in and practice ; and not from things which may perhaps be personally objected against some , but not against the whole order . . the characters which he gives should have been such as are convertible , so as that it may be truly said , all that have these characters are false prophets and false priests , and all false prophets and false priests have them . . he should have told us , whether each of these is convertible , or all of them , if not which they might have and not be false prophets . . his proof being of matter of fact , should have better testimony then his own assertion or interrogations , that may be denied . . his characters are such as perhaps the ministers may tell him , physitian heal thy self , novimus & qui te — we can prove , if not the same , yet as bad characters or properties of false prophets , or false priests in those you allow to be heard even in your instituted churches , though we rake not up out of the ashes what was charged on the brownists of old , or of late by edwards , bailey , and others on the independents . . that which is the chief character of a false prophet , pet ▪ . . and other passages before recited , the bringing in damnable heresies , denying the lord that bought them , is wholly omitted , without which , what else he chargeth them with , will be insufficient to prove them false prophets , or to warrant the refusal of hearing them : but will occasion the ministers to charge him with the schism of donatists of confining the church and ministry to their party , and if these things be done with a factious unquiet spirit ( as they take them to be ) tending to hinder the good of souls in not embracing their ministry , and the peace of both church and state : with a fury like that of the circumcellions , or at least an humour of reviling or uncharitable censuring . but whatever were the authors motives , i shall examine them as they are presented , because this argument ( if it were made good ) is instar omnium , and the only genuine reason , why the present ministers should not be heard . for the first , i grant that jerem. . is a signal character of a false prophet , and that a mission from the lord is of the essence of a lawful ministry , that whoever wants such a mission , is no officer of christ , but a false prophet and minister of antichrist ; and that this exactly accords with what is asserted by the apostle , rom. . . but i deny , . that by the sending here is meant the mediate regular outward calling . . that the regular outward mediate calling is only from a rightly constituted church of christ in his sense ; that is , after the congregational way , or by succession from the church in the wilderness ; that is , such as have been separated from the church of rome after its apostasie . . that either an immediate , or such a mediate mission , are of the essence of a lawful minister . . that any of these can any way be deduced from jer. . . or rom. . . . i say , it is contrary to his own grant ch . . to make an outward mission of the essence of a lawful minister , sith he expresly allows gifted brethren , who have not such mission , to preach , and to be heard . as for inward immediate calling , he is no judge of it ; and it may be as well acknowledged in the ministers , as in his gifted brethren . as for the texts , it is clear from the text it self , that their running before they were sent , was in that they preached in gods name , what he did not command or deliver to them ; so that their false prophecying was not for defect of outward calling , but for their taking upon them to deliver that message as from god , which they received not from him : which the words plainly shew , jer. . . . i have not sent these prophets , yet they ran ; which is explained by the next words , i have not spoken to them , yet they prophesied ; and in the next verse , but if they had stood in my counsel , and had caused my people to hear my words , then they , &c. where their not being sent of god , is expressed by gods not speaking to them ; their not standing in his counsel ; making his people to hear words which were not his ; termed after , v. . prophecying lies in his name ; v. . prophets of the deceit of their own heart , ver . . stealing his words every one from his neighbour , ver . . prophecying false dreams , ver . . perverting the words of the living god. all which passages , and the whole chapter shew , that their running when god sent them not , was not in that they had not an outward calling , but in that they prophesied that , as from god which they had not from him , but was of their own invention , lies , perverting gods word : and that this is meant by not sending , is manifest in that , ver . . these are put as equipollent , i sent them not , nor commanded them , and v. . i have sent unto you , saying , ye shall not say the burden of the lord ; where sending is expressed to be saying what they should not speak . which might be further proved out of jerem. . . and the plain words , jerem. . . the prophet which prophesieth of peace when the word of the prophet shall come to pass , then shall the prophet be known , that the lord hath truly sent him . whence it is plain , that the mission of god is known by the word delivered : which if it be according to gods minde , a person cannot be judged a false prophet , nor without mission from him . nor can the sending , rom. . . be otherwise meant . for the words imply , a person cannot preach except he be sent . but this is not true of mediate outward calling , for those that were scattered went every where preaching the word , acts . . and so do gifted brethren without such a calling . but he is not sent who doth preach another gospel , and he is sent who doth preach the gospel , as the words following intimate , how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace , and bring glad tidings of good things ? which i would not have understood , as if an outward regular calling were not necessary for him that takes on him the publick function of preaching , or that every one were to be permitted to do so that did intrude into it : but that the speaking of gods word whether in private or publick , is with such a mission as acquits him that preacheth it from being a false prophet , and the hearer from transgressing the precept , matth. . . beware of false prophets . what he said before against the ministers mission , chap. . is answered before . what is pleaded about a succession from the church of rome is represented by many that understand not the occasion and plea , as odious , and a proof of the antichristianism of their calling . but they who peruse what mr. francis mason against champney and others , who have answered the papists question , whence had the protestant ministers their calling ? have written , will be otherwise minded . it follows . sect. . the ministers not proved to commit adultery , and walk in lyes , as jer. . . is meant . . that they commit adultery , and walk in lyes , jer. . . which none as i ever yet met with ; interpret literally of corporal whoredome and adultery , but mystically of spiritual adultery , a departure from the wayes and institutions of the lord in worship , to the devices and inventions of men : in the margin . in an old translation of the new testament , dedicated to edward the sixth , the author thereof in his notes on matth. . sayes , they which in their ministry and preaching do otherwise then god had commanded them are no true disciples of christ ( a sin usually in the scripture expressed , for the nature and greatness of it , under that notion , jer. . . ezek. . . rev. . . which is also in scripture called a lye , isa. , . amos . . john . . the whole worship of antichrist being patched up with such dirty inventions , is so called , thess. . . ) that this character also doth rightly appertain unto the present ministers of england , the best of whom do in the sence of the spirit in the forecited scripture , commit adultery , and walk in lyes , hath already been proved ( and more hereunto shall afterwards be spoken [ 't were well if upon some of them it had not a literal accomplishment ] which of the institutions of christ have they not mixed with their inventions ? from how many have they gone a whoring ? is not a great part of their worship drops of the whores cup of fornication , and shreds of the great lye of antichrist ? who that hath soberly and unbiassedly considered of these things , but must acknowledge it ? answ. to acquaint this author with somewhat obvious enough , yet it seems this author met not with it , i will set down the annotation of mr. gataker on jer. . . inferiour to none of the annotators of the bible . they commit adultery ] do as eli 's sons did , sam. . , . whence adultery became so rise in the land , ver . . and walk in lyes ] or walk up and down with lyes . hebr. with falshood , or a lye ; as isa. . . they utter their lyes not in baals name , but in mine , and so father their lyes upon me , chap. . . see ver , . hebr. committing adultery , and walking with a lye ; that is , at full , committing they commit adultery ; and walking , they walk about with lyes : they make a common trade and practice of either : a form , though defective , yet very significant , see on isa. . . see these two vile practices joyned together in the false prophets again , chap. . . for those that here restrain the term of adultery to idolatry , spiritual adultery , seem therein to wrong the text. now if this be the meaning of the committing adultery , it may be a signal character of a wicked man , but not of a false prophet as such . but if it be understood of spiritual adultery , every departure from the wayes and institutions of the lord in worship to be devices and inventions of men , is not in this prophet , nor in any other , termed committing adultery ; but when that divine worship which is appropriated to god is given to that which is not god , as may be shewed out of the . and . chapters of jeremiah , where ch . . ▪ . it is said , they committed adultery with stocks and stones , ezek. . . with idols . now if he can prove that the present ministers do thus commit adultery , are idolaters in their worship , i will yield , they and their worship are to be separated from ; and if they teach it , not to be heard . what he saith he hath proved before , is answered before ; what he saith in the next chapter , will be then discussed . the words in the margin may be right , yet impertinent . as for walking in lyes ; i grant it to be a signal character of a false prophet , understanding it of lyes in doctrine opposite to the principles of theology : and if he can prove the present ministers do walk in such lyes , i shall yield them to be false prophets , and not to be heard : but yet he hath not done that , nor goes about it . that which he produceth out of isa. . . amos . . john . . thess. . . proves not every device and invention of men in worship to be meant by lyes , jer. . . isa. . . by lyes some understand their idols , some their treachery in dissembling and compliance with the adverse party , some their crafty shifts and wily devices . mr gataker conceives , most likely their strength raised , and wealth gotten by fraudulent and deceitful courses , amos . . diodati annot. their lyes ] namely , their idols , false worships and superstitions , john . . is meant of any lyes , but chiefly that which is opposed to the truth of gods word in the gospel , not meant as this authour applies it . thess. . . is manifestly understood of a lye opposite to the truth by which they might be saved , that is , the gospel , v. . . and so notes anti-evangelical doctrine , though i deny not the whole worship of antichrist being patch'd up with such dirty inventions may be so called . but to his queries i answer . to the first , which of the institutions of christ have not the present ministers mixed with their inventions ? . it concerns him that accuseth to shew which they have so mixed . . that i think the institution of preaching the gospel , which is that about which is the present question , they have not so mixed . sure , if they preach such doctrine of faith as they subscribe to , they do not mix their doctrine with their own inventions ; yet , if any do , while he holds the foundation , though he build some hay and stubble he is not to be charged to walk in lyes . i conceive the preachers of the congregational churches have been as guilty of antinomian , arminian , and other errors as the prelatical . to the . from how many have they gone a whoring ? . it concerns him that accuseth to shew . . they have not gone a whoring from the lords supper to the mass , by transubstantiation , and the unbloody propitiatory sacrifice for quick and dead , and adoration of the breaden-god . to the third , is not a great part of their worship drops of the whores cup of fornication and shreds of the great lye of antichrist ? the whores cup of fornication and great lye of antichrist , are according to brightman , mede , and others their idolatries in invocation of saints , worshipping images , reliques , the crucifix , the host , in their herisies about justification , merit , the popes supremacy , and other points of the trent council . a great part of the worship of the ministers of the church of england is in their prayers to god , their praises of god in psalms , and hymns , in their teaching and instructing of the people . let this author shew any part of this worship of the ministers of england to be a drop of the whores cup of fornication , or a shred of that great lye of antichrist , even according to the exposition of the authors named , or any other sober author ; yea , though he be biassed towards the congregational way , such as mr. cotton , mr. thomas parker , or any other of that party , or else let him be branded lege remnia , as an egregious calumniator . as for that inserted passage [ 't were well if upon some of them it had not a litteral accomplishment ] it had been honest dealing , if he knew any , that he had either reproved them or complained to their superiors , but thus obliquely to insinuate it to the readers , too apt to entertain any suggestions against the present ministers , whether true or false , was neither the part of a charitable christian , nor of a candid moralist . sect. . the ministers are not proved to strengthen the hands of evil doers , as jer. . . is meant . . saith he , that they strengthen the hands of evil doers , that none doth return from his wickedness , jer. . . that the present ministers of england really do so , is capable of an ocular demonstration : perhaps they do in their sermons reprove sin , thunder out the judgments of god against the transgressors of his law , as much as any ; but alas , what is this , to condemn them in the state wherein they stand , without repentance to the pit of hell , in the pulpit ; and by and by to saint them in the chancel , and tell them there , without exception , that the body of christ was broken for them , his blood shed for them ? o how many millions of souls are and have been thereby hardened to their own undoing , and their hands strengthned in wickedness ? what should i mention their admission of the children of all to baptism , without exception , their owning them as church-members ; yea , die they never so wickedly , as brethren , of whose joyful resurrection they profess they have a sure and certain hope ; thereby proclaiming their undoubted perswasion , that they are a people in covenant with god ? not to take notice of the terrible reflections , and uncharitable censures are publickly past by them upon men truly fearing god , because they cannot conform to them : how desparately are the hands of the wicked hereby strengthned ? so that none indeed doth return from his wickedness : how rare a thing is it to hear of one soul that is brought over to god by all their preaching ? so that visibly that judgment of god seems to be upon them , ver . . therefore they shall not at all profit this people . answ. they confirm them in their wickedness , and so keep them from repentance , by bearing them in hand , that they shall do well enough , whatsoever gods messengers tell them , that though they do continue in their sins : see ezek. . . is mr. gatakers paraphrase of this passage of the prophet . and this author is not ashamed to say , that the present ministers of england really do so , is capable of an ocular demonstration , when his next words acquit them , perhaps they do in their sermons reprove sin , thunder out gods judgments against transgressors of his law as much as any ; if so , they do not strengthen the hands of evil doers by bearing them in hand , that they shall do well enough , though they do continue in their sins : and that , which he acknowledgeth they do , is enough to acquit them from that character of the false prophets here charged upon them , which perhaps might more truly be imputed to those , who have taught arminian and antinomian errors , which have been too rife in the congregational churches . in the point of baptism i can acquit the one no more than the other , nor will i justifie the censures of men truly fearing god ; i have some grounds to think that it is oft a matter of mourning , not only to the present ministers , but also to some of the bishops , and that they wish , that there were a remedy in that , and in the admission of many ignorant and evil doers to the lords supper , and they conceive by the warning before the communion , the enlargement of power to the minister in the liturgy , as now it is , in the joynt confession of sin , and preaching before the communion , besides conference , and examination , which may be used to redress it , some provision is made against it , however laws restrain them from doing more ; which being made against recusant papists , are thought fit to be continued , though used concerning others who are not such . that expression of the breaking of christs body for them , and shedding his blood is known to be but a charitable speech , upon the supposal of the persons repentance and faith ( the truth of which is above the ministers cognizance ) professed by them , they use ; and if judas were at the lords supper , it was used by christ ; and being understood as those speeches , cor. . . through thy knowledge shall thy weak brother perish , for whom christ died . heb. . . hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing , are not liable ro exception . if any do undoe themselves by mis-understanding it , the same thing happened to christs hearers , john . ▪ . and is to be remedied by expounding the meaning , and warning persons , that they do not abuse it to their destruction . that the ministers own men as brethren , die they never so wickedly , is not true , if by legal censure or judgment they are declared criminal ; if not , the ministers are not allowed to exclude persons from brotherhood upon their own opinion without proof and judicial sentence ; if they do call them brethren , so all men are ; and those that profess faith , may be charitably accounted christian brethren . in the words used at burial , the minister doth not profess , he hath a sure and certain hope of the joyful resurrection of all them that are interred ; but the words are , in sure and certain hope of the resurrection to eternal life without application of it to the person then to be interred ; and therefore these allegations are too short of proving ministers strengthening the hands of evil doers as false prophets . if their success in preaching be not as were to be wished , it is the same that the prophets complained of , isa. . . isa . . and was verified of christ , john . , . and if it fall out , that people are hardened notwithstanding their ministers do preach , as here it s not denied they do , it is from themselves ; and i wish their hardening and destruction be not to be charged on this author , and such others as are of the separation , who , by declaiming against them as antichristian , alienate the spirits of people from them , so as to refuse to hear the word ; which i count a most pernicious wickedness in whomsoever , though reputed saints . and though there is too much cause to bewail , that there is so little effect upon the preaching of the present ministers , yet sure to argue thence that they are not sent of god , but are false prophets , is altogether inconsequent . mr. robinson in his justification of separation , p. , . speaks better than so , when he saith , it is most evident , that whosoever converteth a man unto god , that person doth in truth and in deed , minister the word of god , and the spirit by the word , and so may be said to be sent of god. in that general and large sense , wherein mr. bernard , p. . expounds the word , sent or apostle , i do acknowledge many ministers in england sent of god ; that is , that it comes not to pass without the special providence and ordination of god , that such and such men should rise up , and preach such and such truths for the furtherance of the salvation of gods elect in the places , where they come , but this accuser adds . sect. . the ministers are not proved such daubers as those , ezek. . . . that they prophesie placentia , smooth things , according to the desires , tempers , and lusts of men , to the pleasing of whom they addict themselvs , jer. . . and . . ezek. . , . and . what visible lineaments of such a frame of spirit , are drawn upon the faces of that generation of men , concerning whom we are now discoursing ? have they not been of all others ( i am now speaking of such as are looked upon by professors , as men of the greatest parts and holiness ) the most ready to strike in with , preach up , and plead for what was suitable unto the spirits of such upon whom they have had a dependance . 't were indeed well for them , could they in their present standing and practise acquit themselves from that sore crime of seeking to please men , which if they do , they cannot be the servants of christ , gal. . . answ. they do by their glossings and flatteries , lull people asleep in security , bearing them in hand , that there is no such dangerous matter towards them , as gods prophets tell them ; but that all shall be well , whatsoever they say : see the same , chap. . . see also , lam. . . ezek. . . is mr. gatakers paraphrase in his annotations on jer. . . that which was prophesied , jer. . . is expressed to be , that they should not serve the king of babylon . the daubing . ezek. . , . was by seeing vanity , and divining lies , ver . . ezek. . saying , thus saith the lord , when the lord hath not spoken . if the present ministers of england do so , they are to be accounted false prophets . but do not this authors own words in the next crimination before , when he saith , [ perhaps they do in their sermons reprove sin , thunder out the judgments of god against transgressors of his law as much as any ] clear the ministers , and prove himself guilty of false accusation ? what those visible lineaments of such a frame of spirit are , should have been named , if he would have dealt plainly . if men of greatest parts and holiness on one side , have been the most ready to strike in with , preach up , and plead for , what was suitable unto the spirits of such upon whom they have had dependance : may it not be said so of men of the greatest parts and holiness of the congregational party , that they have been liable to the like ? it were well if both parties would search themselves , and not be so forward to accuse each other . as i conceived long ago in my printed treatise of glorying in men , on cor. . . so i am still by much experience confirmed , that the so termed professors of england out of their injudiciousness , and partial affection have done much hurt to themselves and the church of god , by looking upon , glorying in , adhering to some as of greatest parts and holiness with disparagement of others ; whence evil surmizes , censurings , divisions from them that are disaffected , swallowing down without chewing , what those utter whom they follow ; which hath been a temptation to teachers to vent such things as were not right , for the retaining of their followers , and a trap whereby their hearers have been ensnared to their own and others no small disquietness . and i agree with this author , that it were well indeed with the ministers , and with their dissenters or opposites , if they could all acquit themselves from this sore crime of seeking to please men , and that we could all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seek and speak the truth in love , ephes. . . yet further saith he . sect. . ministers changing of places , sadning some mens hearts , not characters of a false prophet . . that they are greedy dogs , that can never have enough , and look every man for his gain from his quarter , isa. . . seeking and serving themselves in their ministration , ezek. . , micah . . . in the margin . in a translation of the new testament , dedicated to edward the sixth , the author of the notes on chap. . sayes , we must preach the truth without any respect of reward or gains . they therefore that preach for their bellies sake , or preach after the prescript of man — are not the disciples of christ. that herein is a perfect harmony betwixt these false prophets and the present ministers of england cannot be denied ; what means else their frequent calls , from places of less , to places of greater value ; their gaping and greedy desires after preferment ; the vexations they put poor men to , that cannot in conscience put into their mouths preparing war against them . answ. isa. . . may be understood as well of the civil magistrate as the minister ; and of neither is it a character of a minister not to be heard , as being a false prophet , nor of an usurper or unlawful magistrate , that is not to be obeyed . ezek. . . notes a character of a false prophet , but the proper character of him as such , is not that he prophecied for handfuls of barley , or pieces of bread , but that they polluted god among his people by lying to them . micah . . is a character of a false prophet , in that they made gods people to erre , their preparing war against him that put not into their mouth is a common accident to corrupt men , not a property of a false prophet ; and in like manner the prophets divining for money , ver . . or the priests teaching for money no more proves a false prophet or false priest , then the heads judging for reward proves them false heads : these are their personal vices , which may be in a true prophet , as in judas , and in a true priest , as hophni , or in a true head , as in jehoiakim , jer. . . and so are impertinent to prove a minister a false prophet . nor is it any more to the purpose what is in the margin , sith he that preacheth truth with respect of reward or gains , may be a true prophet , though not a good man ; and so they that preach for their bellies sake , though if they preach not according to the word of god , but after the prescript of man , for the matter of their doctrine they may be false prophets : but this is not so much as offered to be proved concerning the present ministers of england ; and therefore it is untruly said , that it cannot be denied that there is a perfect harmony between them , and those false prophets . as for their removals from places of less to places of greater value , it is a thing which may be objected to preachers and pastors of the congregational churches , and may be upon just cause , and therefore of it self proves not so much as a covetous minde : whether it be out of gaping and greedy desire after preferments god may be the only judge . if preparing war be meant of suing for their dues by law , it may be just ; nor is a minister bound to live upon alms , or voluntary contribution ; the elders of the separated churches have found by experience how great a misery it is for a student though godly and painful to live of the benevolence of their churches ; nor is it any sin for a minister more than for another man to make use of the magistrate and law to gain his due , according to the law of the land. and however some have instilled into peoples heads the unlawfulness of requiring or paying tithes , or other dues to the present ministers , as they did before to non-conformists ; yet there is no colourable plea for not paying them , it being not unlawful for me to pay what is unjustly demanded , there being therein no doing of wrong , though there should be a suffering of wrong . and therefore it is but vainly pretended , that they cannot in conscience put into ministers mouths , when there is no appearance of sin in doing it ; and if their consciences be misled by erroneous casuists , poor men may thank them for their vexations , and beware of hearkening to them , and not clamour against the ministers as the only cause of their trouble ; if out of meer obstinacy they deny to pay , they are to blame themselves . it is added . . that they sadden the hearts of the righteous , ezek. . . what need i turn aside to make application of this to the prophets of this day ? who that is serious , doth not experiment the truth thereof in his own soul ? to see the name and ordinances of god prophaned , the ceremonies and inventions of man subjected unto , by such as pretend to be ministers of christ , would make an heart of stone to bleed ; much more those whose hearts are made tender by the lord. those of our brethren that as yet attend upon their ministry , will tell us , they are troubled at their compliance and conformity — all that look in the least after reformation , say , they could wish it were otherwise ; so that this character also is visibly upon them . answer . by lyes sadning the hearts of the righteous , as ezek. . . is granted to be a character of a false prophet , but this author omits that , and makes that a character of a false prophet which is not , and applies that to the ministers which he goes not about to prove they are guilty of . perhaps those righteous persons he means are sadned out of mistakes , as conceiving the name and ordinances of god prophaned when they are not ; as the israelites were when they mistook the reubenites fact in building an altar , josh. . , . perhaps it may be without their fault , perhaps the ministers are sadned as well as they , perhaps the sadness is from such erroneous suggestions , as are instilled into the people by such as hold the same principles of separation with this author ; perhaps men as righteous , as they who are sadned , do without any sadness attend upon their ministry ; perhaps they are sadned that they stumble at that they need not ; perhaps they are more sad at such principles of division as pervert them that are counted otherwise righteous than at any thing they perceive practised by the ministers of england . if sadning the hearts of righteous by the inventions of men be a character of false prophets , and that for it the ministers of england are to be judged such , the renting of errors and fancies which have been in the congregational churches , and even by their teachers , the many unnecessary scruples , janglings , oppositions , arrogant , wilful carriages , deceitful and unrighteous dealings in members , which have sadned the hearts of many sober , and better composed spirits , and made them weary of their societies ; the heart bleedings for professors abominations are indeed as signal characters of false prophets in their churches , as of the ministers in the church of england being such . though there were an utter oblivion of what of old was done by separatists in england , the low countries , in new england ; yet what hath been done in england in our times , and is yet in the memory of many yet alive , should have stopped this authors mouth , and made him forbear to object that against the ministers of england , which may perhaps more fully be retorted on those whose ministry he would have attended on . the elders and messengers of the congregational churches meeting at the savoy , octob. . . in the preface to the decclaration of their faith and order do of their own accord say , it is true , that many sad miscarriages , divisions , breaches , fallings off from the holy ordinances of god , have along in this time of temptation , ( especially in the beginning of it ) been found in some of our churches . yea , such insinuations as this author urgeth against the ministers of england , would have proved not only the ministers of the reformed churches of late , but even the angels of the seven churches of asia , the teachers of the churches of corinth , and other the best churches in the primitive times to have been false prophets . but i forbear . he addes , . that they mix the word of god with their dreams , jer. . . . in the margin . the notes on matth. . in the foresaid translation are ; here do all preachers learn what they should teach ; nothing else but gods word ; nothing else but that the lord hath commanded them : not their own dreams and inventions . so do the present ministers of england , as hath been proved . sect. . pressing rigid conformity no proof of the ministers being false prophets . answ. this needs no further answer than what is before given . . saith he , that they come in sheeps cloathing , having the horns of a lamb , but are inwardly ravening wolves , and speak like dragons ( i. e. pretend to the holiness and meekness of christ and saints , but are inwardly full of raven and cruelty , yea terrible in their edicts and laws , stirring up and making use of the powers of the world , to persecute , kill and destroy the saints mat. . . revel . . . ( which second beast is no other than the false prophet mentioned , revel . . . as might easily be demonstrated ) as face answers face in a glass , so do the present ministers of england the false prophets there spoken of . are not all the persecutions , imprisonments , slaughters and butcheries of the children of god , that the first beast hath exercised upon the saints for this . years to be charged upon this generation of men ? yea , who do more eagerly press a rigid conformity ( not only contrary to the kings declaration from breda ) and others since published by him , but also ( as is thought ) to his natural temper , and the inclination and bent of his spirit ) though to the infringing of the liberty , the banishment , the taking away the lives of the saints , who love truth and peace , and humbly beg , that they may be suffered for the tribute they pay ( as in the dominion of the grand seignior they are ) in quietness to serve god according to their perswasins . answ. it is true , false prophets are noted by christ , matth. . . to be in outward shew as sheep , meek and holy , inwardly cruel ; but this is not the form , denominating them false prophets ; nor a signal character of them , by which they are known , but a reason of the caution , of being deceived by their fair shews . that by which they are false prophets , and are known to be such is their fruits , v. . which though variously expounded by the ancients , and maldonat understands it of their works , grotius of the works of iniquity , yet of the ancients some understand it of their faith ; protestants , some by fruits understand their false doctrine and evil life , as beza , their doctrine , manner of teaching , spiritual efficacy in their hearts , their life , customes and intentions , so diodati annot. their doctrin , self-seeking and wickedness , so the large annot. pareus , the fruit of a false prophet is his false and damnable doctrine . dr. hammond , ye shall certainly know and discern them , if you take notice of , and weigh the doctrines , which , when they have gotten some authority with you , they will presently endeavour to infuse into you . piscator in his scholies , from the effects of their doctrin : for as for what pertains to life , it may be that he may teach well , who lives ill . molin . vates , l. . c. . the fruits which their doctrine produceth in the minds of auditors . that the doctrin is meant by the fruits , matth. . . was long since in my antidote , sect. . asserted , and in my praecursor vindicated , sect. . to which i still adhere , and therefore count this , which is here made a signal character of a false prophet unfit to that end as being congruous to them who are no prophets in pretence , and to them who may be true prophets or teachers . the second beast , revel . . . is saith molin . vates , l. . c. . the roman clergy with the pope himself ; the bishop of rome with his clergy , saith mr. mede , comment on revel . . . most of the protestant divines make it either the pope when he usurped the power over the emperour , or the pope and his clergy , who were indeed terrible in their edicts and laws , stirring up and making use of the powers of the world , to persecute , kill , and destroy the saints . but this did not shew them false prophets , but their false doctrine . but that as face answers face in a glass , so do the present ministers of england the false prophets there spoken of , is said with much heat , and without proof . that all the persecutions , imprisonments , slaughters and butcheries of the children of god , that the first beast , ( whether he mean it of the roman emperours , or ten horns , that is , ten kings into which it was parted , or the bishop of rome ) hath exercised upon the saints for this . years , are to be charged upon this generation of men , that is , the present hierarchy and ministry of england , ( which he means if he speak pertinently ) is i confess a very dreadful and heavy sentence , but pronounced à non judice , who i hope will be found a false prophet , in the event , as it shews him inwardly cruel to them , and by his own rule is a signal character of himself being a false prophet , i hope , by their appeal to heaven they will get this indictment quasht . i presume the rigid conformity pressed hath not yet tended to the banishment , the taking away of the lives of the saints , who love truth and peace ; and i wish such writings and practices , as this author , and some others are deemed to use , do not exasperate the king and parliament to effect it . i assent to what he saith of his majesty , as having by experience found it true , ( which in all humble thankfulness i acknowledge ) nor do i doubt but he is , as the poet describes a good prince , est piger ad paenas princeps ad praemia velox , quique dolet quoties cogitur esse ferox . concerning the declaration from breda , and other declarations since published by his majesty , how far the pressing of rigid conformity opposeth , and who are the causes thereof is above our cognizance , who are at so great a distance , that the present ministers , who are the ordinary teachers to be heard , are the men that do it hath no likelihood , sith they are the men upon whom the rigid conformity is pressed , and therefore this allegation is very inaptly made a signal character of their being false prophets . sect. the charge ezek. . . reacheth not the ministers of england . it follows . that they put no difference betwixt the holy and prophane , ezek. . . do not even the ministers of england the same ? are not all their dear brethren and sisters , living and dead , though drunkards , swearers , adulterers , and adulteresses ? &c. are not , as was said , the children of them all admitted to the font , and they themselves to the lords table ? is not the childrens meat frequently given unto dogs , and the holy ordinances prostituted to be polluted by the worst of men ? answ. the charge , ezek. . . is against the priests of the law accusing them of neglecting to discern between clean and unclean offerings , as piscator in his analysis . grotius , they made not them to understand , to wit , the difference , from that which was common . they are the very words from lev. . . where they are commanded to do what here they are said to have neglected . that is holy which is dedicated unto god : profane which is in common use . polluted which is forbidden to be eaten ; clean which it is lawful to eat . aynsworth on lev. . . that ye may separate ] or , to make difference ; and this is meant not only for themselves , but others , as in ezek. . . they shall teach my people ( the difference ) between holy and profane , and cause them to discern between unclean and clean . and for not doing this , the priests are blamed , ezek. . . see also lev. . . holy ] heb. holiness : meaning of persons , and things . in greek , between the holy ones and the profane : which texts and others , as levit. . , , . shew that this thing was an evil indeed of a levitical priest , when either they admitted unclean and profane offerings of beasts or fowls , or legally unclean persons ; or taught not the people to put difference between them ; yet was no character distinguishing a false priest from a true , though it shewed him to be negligent . but is nothing to our ministers who are not now to count any man or creature common or unclean , act. . . . whether they have power to keep any professing the faith from the lords supper , it may be doubted . granting it that they have , yet this author will not allow it , i presume , to each single minister , and if not , it is unjust to account them false preists for not doing it . but of this before in this chapter , section . . sect. . the ministers are not the false shepherds meant , ezek. . . it is added . that they exercise not pity to the weak broken scattered sheep of christ , nor shew bowels in their recovery , but with force and cruelty rule over them , ezek. . one would think , the former part of the chapter were rather an history of what is practised by the false shepherds of this day , than otherwise : so perfect an agreement is there betwixt their practice , and this prophecy of the lord. they tell us 't is our weakness and distemper that we conform not to their worship ; that we are persons gone astray : we profess to them , that we would not give way to spiritual distempers , nor stray one step from the wayes of god might we but know it ; we would thank any to convince us of our mistakes , and reduce us to the true sheepfold , if we are gone astray : do they seek after us , in a spirit of tenderness labour to convince us , and carry us in their bosomes , like tender shepherds to the true fold ? what less ? with force and cruelty they rule over us , threaten us with excommunications , imprisonments , banishments , dispoiling us of what god hath graciously given us , yea , condemning us to death : in all which ( through the grace of god ) we can rejoice , though they thereby abundantly demonstrate , that they are the successors of the false shepherds here spoken of . answ. though diodati , the annotator in the large annotations , junius , the marginal notes of the geneva translation , say , he meaneth by shepherds , the king , the magistrates , priests , and prophets ; yet after piscator , grotius , and others , i think this passage is only appliable to the kings and other civil rulers of israel , the prophets not ruling over the people with force and cruelty , but beguiling them with lies and deceit . which with sundry more passages of the chapter upon my reading of it do convince me , that this author doth misalleadge it , sith the ministers of england are not successors of the civil magistrates , nor are the prince and governors here termed false shepherds , but negligent , and unmerciful ; which are not the signal characters of a false prophet , or false priest , and therefore this text is impertinent to prove the ministers to be such . as for the practice he chargeth the ministers , with , sith it is in generals , a distinct answer cannot be made to it , nor can any but the accused well answer it . possibly that which this author counts force and cruelty may be necessary , though severe discipline . i do not justifie the neglects or menaces mentioned in any ; nor is it unlikely , but that there are men of violent spirits in the hierarchy and ministry of england , to whom this evil is imputed : nor do i think this author can acquit all those that are elders or other members of the congregational churches . iliacos intrà muros peccatur & extrà . it is to be lamented that such sad things should happen as he recites . for my part i have , even when the congegational men had most liberty , had conferences with persons , in which i shewed my dissent from them in respect of the separation with my reasons , and have often in writing answered their arguments for it , which i can yet produce , yet found them still inflexible . this writing was begun by me out of compassion of those , to whom i was once a preacher , whom i found seduced by it , and have endeavoured without any bitterness to convince this author of his mistakes , yet i doubt whether he will thank me for it . i rather expect to be told for writing this book , as i was for writing of some other pieces , that i am an apostate , temporizer , flatterer , adversary to the saints , and such like imputations . they that know what hath been done in new-england , and old england even at oxford to quakers for inveighing against their teachers and governors should be somewhat more moderate in censures of the present ministers and governors ; who when they read this very chapter will be apt to think , that the soul of the quakers is by transmigration gotten into this author . my prayer to god is , that on all sides there may be such a calm and considerate spirit , that we may forbear one another , and in love endeavour the rectifying of each other , not bite and devour one another , lest we be consumed one of another , and so we be homo homini lupus , not shepherds . sect. . the ministers of england are not the second beast foretold . revel . . . but there 's more behind . what should i mention , saith he , . that they come up out of the earth , rev. . . are raised up by men of earthly spirits and principles . . that they exercise the power of the first beast , or make use of the civil power for their supportment , ver . . . that they make an image to the beast , ver . . . ( i. e. erect an ecclesiastical state of government , in a proportio●ableness to , and resemblance of the civil state. ) . that they compel all under the penalty of death , to worship or bow down to this image of the beast ( or ecclesiastical government , in its courts , canons , laws , and ceremonies devised by it ) v. . . that they compel all to receive a mark , either in their right hands or foreheads ; secretly or openly , one way or other to acknowledge subjection unto this beast , without which they may neither buy nor sell , being cut off from the church , by their excommunications for their stubborness , v. , . all which characters of the second beast ( or false prophet ) he that runs may read upon the present hierarchy and ministry of england . it remaineth then that the present ministers of england have the characters of the false prophets and preists upon them , and therefore are not to be heard but to be separated from . answ. though the book of the revelation be a holy divine writing , and hath been of great use to support the spirits of christians under the great persecutions , which have befallen them , and is still of very great importance for the animating of believers either to patience in sufferings , or watchfulness in time of temptation ; yet such abuse there hath been made of it to uphold many wild conceits , many irregular practises ; notwithstanding the confessed obscurity , and the frequent refutation of such conceits , as men have with much confidence delivered , by the manifestation of their vanity in the event ; that sober men have wished it were either less read by some , or more , considerately weighed , and more warily applyed . the passages here alledged have been so abused by men of opposite parties against dissenters , especially by those of the separation against not only the prelates and prelatical preachers , but also the presbyterian , that they have served for no other purpose but to inflame the minds of one against the other . the first and second beast , rev. . are differently conceived . dr. hamond conceives the first beast to be the heathen roman emperors upholding the idol worship , the second beast the augurs , priests , and magicians , such as apollonius tyranaeus was , & so conceives the accomplishment already past . the author of an essay on that part of the revelation , which begins at chapter the . conceives it meant of one to come . molinaeus in his vates , l . c. . with mede , and others , understand it of the pope and roman clergy . there is no probability , that this second beast should be meant of the hierarchy and ministry of england , or that they should be the false prophet mentioned , rev. . . which is said to work miracles before the beast , and with the beast was cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone : which to say of men , of whom some he acknowledgeth to be good men , is so horrid an imagination , as had not this author been transported with extreme passion , me thinks he should have trembled to have let it enter into his thoughts , much less to have written and printed it . nor can the conceits be free from these and such horrid consequences , that then the first beast must be civil powers , and they to be cast into the lake burning with fire ; that the hierarchy and ministry of england , cause the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast , whether the roman emperors , or pope , or civil powers , or idols , that al that be subject to the image of the beast ▪ which is made the ecclesiastical government , shall drink of the wine of the wrath of god , which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation , and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels , and in the presence of the lamb , and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever , with more of the like ; which are so monstrously uncharitable to be conceived of such men , and so utterly destitute of all colour of proof , that i can scarse censure it so mildly as to term it dotage , but rather take it to be the speech of a furious bedlam . his applications also are so frivolous and wild , as that they should be abhorred rather than answered . how doth it appear that to come out of the earth is to be raised by men of earthly spirits and principles ? how doth it appear that men raising them , whether princes or patrons are men of such spirits and principles ? when were they raised by such ? to exercise the power of the beast is not to make use of the civil power for its support , ( which were indeed no evil , but may be good , and the wisdom of men ) but to act with the same power the first beast used in making war with the saints . if the ecclesiastical state as it resembles the civil , be the image of the beast , and to erect it , be the character of the false prophet ; and this be so evil , then it is much more evil to erect the civil state , which is the prototype , which me thinks he should fear to say . how doth it appear , that the proportionableness to & resemblance of the ecclesiastical state of government to the civil is not therefore the better and more desirable ? when did the ministers compel all under the penalty of death , or outlawry to acknowledg subjection to the hierarchy ? are there not many persons and places of peculiar and exempt jurisdiction ? many persons that either by indulgence or connivence , though not acknowledging such subjection , live as free as those that do ? do all great as well as small , rich and poor , free and bond receive such a mark ? i am weary with refuting such palpable gross untruths , and do wonder with what face without the least proof , a man that would be accounted a saint should attempt to obtrude them upon the world , much more that he should do it to the church of god , and upon such absurd premisses conclude thus , it remaineth then that the present ministers of england have the characters and properties of the false prophets and priests upon them , and therefore are not to be heard , but separated from . chap. . arg. . sect. . all idolatry is , by exhibiting divine worship to a creature . those that are guilty of idolatry , saints may not have communion with ( much less own them as their teachers ) but ought to separate from them : but , the present ministers of england are idolaters : therefore . the major ( or first proposition ) will not be deined , because bottom'd upon express commands from christ , cor. . . and . . cor. . . . before we descend to the confirmation of the minor ( or second proposition ) we shall crave leave to premise ; that idolatry may be considered under a threefold notion . st . most gross and absurd idolatry , when the creature is worshipped terminatively ; this few are guilty of : the israelites of old worshipped not the calf terminatively , but god in it , therefore they are said to proclaim a feast to jehovah , exod. . . rab. m. maimonides de idolat . . , , &c. observes , that never any idolater was so silly , as to think , that an idol of wood , stone or mettal , was a god that made the heaven and earth , but through them all idolaters intend to worship god. ly . somewhat more refined idolatry , ( viz. in respect of what we but now instanc'd in ) when we offer up any worship or homage , proper and due to god only , before any creature , as the medium or representative of god : such was the idolatry of israel in the golden calf , brazen serpent , &c. of this are the synagogue of rome , amongst all the combinations of men in the world , most eminently guilty . to this head may be added , . the ascription of godhead to any creature , as to herod , acts . . . the ascription of the properties of the godhead to any creature . . the worshipping of god in any other way than what he hath prescribed : which all that write upon the second commandment say , is the idolatry therein forbidden . . the oblation of worship or service to god , that hath been offered up to idols , for which there is no prescription in the scripture . ly . most refined idolatry , when the heart goes forth in desires after any thing beyond what is limited by the lord , or trusts and relyes on any creature on this side god. in the first sense , there are ( as was said ) few or no idolaters in the world : the papists come as near thereunto as any , praying to the cross , the virgin mary , saints , angels , &c. expresly affirming , that the virgin mary may be worshipped with that worsh●p , which they call cultus latriae , which yet they say is due only to god. in the last sense , there are none , but at one time or other may be said to be idolaters ▪ the hearts of the best men 〈◊〉 too often going forth too farr in desires after , and secret dependence upon ▪ things beneath the lord : which yet they are watching and warring against , waiting and longing for the day , in which they shall be c●mpleatly swallowed up in the will of god. t is in respect of the s●cond particular before instanc'd in , that we assert the present ministers of england to be idolaters : to the proof whereof we now add●ess ourselves . answ. the conclusion is not the same with that which at first ch. . was undertaken to be defended , that it is not lawful for the saints to hear the present ministers of england ; nor doth it necessarily follow , that if we may not have communion with persons , nor own them as our teachers , but separate from them , that we may not hear them preach the gospel . an excommunicate person i am not to have communion with , nor to own the teachers of forreign churches as suppose the lutheran , as my teachers ▪ yea i may be bound to separate from such , as suppose a popish priest , as jansenist , preaching the doctrine of original sin , of efficacious grace ▪ or the gospel concerning redemption by the blood of christ ; whom yet i may lawfully hear handling those truths according to the received doctrine of st. augustin . nor is the ma●or true , if the idolatry be in that way which he here calls idolatry , the worshipping of god in any other way than what he hath prescribed , nor if the idolatry be secret and not open , nor though it be open , if by infirmity he fall into it and repents ; or be not censured as such ; or teacheth nor such idolatry ; nor requires any communion with him in his idolatry . nor do the texts prove his ma●or : cor. . forbids no o●her communion than eating , and that eating which might be with idolaters of this w●●ld , v. and therefore not eating the lords supper : nor doth it any mo●e forbid eating with a b●other called an 〈◊〉 , than with a brother called a fornicatour , or covetous , 〈…〉 , or an extortioner , and therefore , if this text prove a necessity of separation from such in holy exercises as prayer , or the lords supper , it forbids doing these things with a covetous person , or railer ; and then a christian brother must have cognizance of such sins , and be a judge of every one he communicates with , which were absurd : and therefore it can be meant of no other than arbitrary familiar converse , as in eating , where i am at liberty to eat , or not to eat ; and of private judgement of discretion , which each one is to exercise in the choice of his company : but nothing to the owning of a teacher , or shunning to hear him . for here the person is considered only as a brother , not a teacher in office. cor. . is less to the purpose , for it requires only to flee from idolatry , not from teachers that are any way idolatrous , so as not to hear them . cor. . , , , , . requires , not to be yoaked with infidels , not to have part with them , not to agree with idols , to come out from among infidels , to be separate , not to touch the unclean thing , that is the idol ; which may be done , and yet a person some way guilty of idolatry may be heard , yea owned as our teacher , and we may have some communion with him in holy things , as in prayer , and the lords supper , and praising god , which are not idolatrous . that which is premised by this author before his confirmation of the minor , requires some animadversions upon it . the definition of idolatry , which hitherto hath been received by all protestants that i know of , is , that which dr. john rainold hath delivered in his d. book de idololatria ecclesiae romanae . c. . that it is the exhibiting of divine worship to a creature , and hath proved it from rom. . . where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whether it be read instead of the creatour , as explained by the authors of the writing of the constitutions of clemens by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as it is cited by grotius in his annot. or praeterito creatore , the creatour being forsaken or neglected , as beza after hilarius , or besides the creatour , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , besides that which is laid , cor. . or as the vulgar , potius quam creatori , rather than to the creatour , or as ours , more than the creatour , shews , that there is a worship and service proper to the creatour , and herein was the idolatry of the gentiles , and all other , that they worshipped and served the creature , with that which was due only to the creatour . and therefore i conceive it , not to be idolatry , where divine worship is not exhibited to a creature , that is , directed to some person or thing , substance or accident , real or imagined , which is not the creatour of all things ▪ it is true , that heathen-idolaters did many of them make the creatour of all , the utmost bound or terminus of their image-worship , as the apostle saith , acts . . that the athenians did ignorantly worship the unknown god , and yet were idolaters , because their worship was first of the image as the next terminus or object to which it was exhibited . and the same is true of the israelites worshipping of the calf , though they worshipped god in it , exod. . . because , though they did not worship the calf terminatively , that is , so as to intend to direct their worship to it as the utmost bound of it , or last , or chief object : yet it was the molten image which they worshipped , psal. . . exod. . . it is indeed most gross and absurd idolatry , when the creature is worshipped terminatively , and therefore the worship of baal is accounted worse than the worship of the golden calves at dan and bethel , kings . . because it was terminated lastly to the sun , or to the devil , who was worshipped by molech , to whom they sacrificed their sons and daughters , psal. . , . and this idolatry was the idolatry of the canaanites , and a great part of the world , and of the jewes at last , as st. stephen chargeth them with , acts . , , . nor do i think it true , which this author here , and p. . saith , that there are few or none that worship the creature terminative , sith not only of old the host of heaven was worshipped by most of the idolaters , as may be gathered out of the scriptures , and is largely demonstrated by m● selden in his syntagma de diis syris ; but also at this day the devil himself is worshipped in the east - and west-indies , in some northern countries , and southern , if the relation of travellers , historians , and chorographers be true . it is granted , that it is somewhat more refined idolatry , when we offer up any worship or homage , proper and due to god only , before any creature , as the medium or representative of god. for then the worship is directed to it , as gods deputy , to receive it for him , and so the immediate or next terminus or object is the creature , though it be intended further to or for god , as the last or utmost term , bound or object , to which it is exhibited . but unless it be exhibited to the creature , it is not idolatry , though it be done before the creature , as [ before ] notes only the presence of it with the worshipper , whether seen or unseen , minded or not minded , and not any respect to it in the act of worshipping . worshipping at the temple ▪ before the ark or altar , was no idolatry , it was a duty required , psal . . worship at his footstool , meaning the sanctuary and ark there , saith mr. ainsworth in his annot. not , as the vulgar reads it , and the papists would have it , worship his footstool ; no nor if the lord be worshipped before a creature , as the objectum à quo , as the matter or thing which is the occasion , motive or reason ; of worshipping the lord at that time , is it therefore idolatry , though the worship be not instituted in respect of the time . we read , chron. . and when all the children of israel saw how the fire came down , and the glory of the lord upon the house ( the temple , ) they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement , and worshipped and praised the lord : yet was no idolatry therein ; nor in that which manoah and his wife did , judg. . . or the people , kings . . chron. . . exod. . . and . : whence i inferr , that , though there be divers sorts of idolatry , yet in every of them there is divine worship ; and that , as tertullian in his book of idolatry , c. . speaks of the three children refusing to worship the golden image of nebuchadnezzar , probantes idololatriam esse quicquid ultra humani honoris modum ad instar divinae sublimitatis ext●llitur , then it is idolatry , when any thing that is not god , is extolled beyond the measure of humane honour , to the likeness of divine sublimity , whether it be terminatively , or as a representative . concerning which i acknowledge , that the papists are deeply guilty in praying to the cross , the virgin mary ▪ saints , angels , &c. in which they give them , and their breaden-god , images , and reliques , that which the scripture counts latriam , or the service which is to be given to god only , as to the image of christ , ( aqu. sum . parte . qu. art . . ) ●aith , is to be adored with the adoration of latria : yea bellarmine l. . de imagin . sanctorum , c. . holds , that the images of christ , and the saints , are to have veneration , not only by accident or improperly , but also by themselves and properly , so as that themselves terminate the veneration , and not only as they supply the place of the samplar . and this veneration is expressed in the trent council , sess. . to be , the kissing of them , uncovering the head , and falling down before them , which are the same which were done to the image of baal , kings . . and counted idolatrous , being given to an image . and so are the services done to the virgin mary , though i think the papists do not affirm expresly , as this author saith of them , that the virgin mary may be worshipped with that worship which they call cultus latriae , which yet they say is due only to god ; for they in words deny they give her latriam , and call her worship hyperduliam . nor do i conceive the worshipping of god in any other way than what he hath prescribed , is the idolatry forbidden in the second commandment ; or that all who write upon the second commandment say so , or that the oblation of worship or service to god , that hath been offered up to idols , for which there is no prescription in the scripture , is idolatry , though perhaps it may be superstitious , and will-worship ; between which , if a distinction be not made , the pharisees that worshipped god by washing their hands after the tradition of the elders , will be sound idolaters , of which christ doth not accuse them , matth. . . and therefore , if in respect of this , it is , that the ministers be asserted idolaters , his proof will come short : but let us view it thus he writes , sect. . all will-worship of god is not idolatry . arg. . th●se that worship the true god in any other way than he hath said he will be worshipped in , and is prescribed by him , are idolaters : but the present ministers of england worsh●p the true god in another way than he hath said he will be worshipped it , and is prescribed by him : therefore ▪ the ma●or ( or first proposition ) is evident from this single consideration : to wo●ship the true god through false mediums is idolatry ; such as so wo●ship him are idolaters ; ( this must be so , or else there is little or no idolatry in the world , nor ever was . the athenians ( and other gentiles ) worshipped the true god , for they worsh●pped him whom paul declared to them , even that god , that made the world , acts . , . yet none doubts but they were idolaters , which they cannot be charged with upon any other account , than their worshipping the true god through false mediums : ) but to worship god in any other way than what is of his own prescription , is to worship him through a false medium : therefore so to worship him is idolatry , and they that so worship him are idolaters . answ. if by [ any other way ] be meant of any creature , as the medium or representative of god , as the golden calf , or brazen serpent , i yield the major to be true , and deny the minor : but if he meant by [ any other way ] any sort of worship , such as was the worship of god by washing of hands according to the tradition of the elders , mark . , . i deny both major and minor . and to his proof of the major i answer : though the worshipping of the true god through such traditions of men , which he seems to call false mediums , be not idolatry ; there is and hath been too much idolatry in the world , paganish , and jewish , and popish , and is yet at this day ; and in the athenian worshipping of the true god , acts . , . there was idolatry , in that they worshipped this unknown god by an image , worshipping the image as the representative of god , which may be gathered from v. . where the city of athens is said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , wholly given to idolatry , as we translate it , but more rightly , full of idols ; which is thus expressed by dr. owen in his third book of his theologumena , c. . the streets of the city were called pagi , because to every of their deities some stone ( that is , a pillar consecrated to this or that idol ) was erected . thence to signifie s●me part of the city the use of the word was first drawn . the same was done at athens as was done at jerusalem , jerem. . . for according in the number of thy cities , so are thy gods o judah , and according to the number of the streets of jerusalem , ye have made altars to that shame , altars to burn incense to baal . and from the expression of an altar , v . which among the gentiles had an image near it , and the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which dr. hammond in his annot. on v. . saith , was not their worsh●ps , or their altars , but their idols , that is , their deities themselves , for so the word is used , wisd. . . and , on thes. . alledgeth theophylact as interpreting 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , acts . . by their idols ; and from the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . v. applyed to this worship , is collected , that the unknown god was as a daemor , to whom they erected an image or pillar , which they conceived their deity present at , which is rendred , a standing image , in our translation , or an image of stone , to which they did bow down , forbidden levit. . . of which ainsworth in his annot. there , may be seen . so that upon this account the athenians may be charged with idolatry , in that they , in bowing down to , or worshipping the unknown god , did direct it to the idol or pillar which did represent him , unto which also an altar was dedicated . but it s added , sect. . this authors argument as well proves himself an idolater as the conformist . the minor ( or second proposition ) viz. that the present ministers of england worship the true god in another way than he hath said he will be worshipped in , and is prescribed by him , is that which is denied by some : but the truth thereof , we doubt not , will to the unprejudiced reader be beyond exception evident , from the ensuing demonstration , viz. those that worship god after the way of the common-prayer-book , worship him in another way than that he hath said he will be worshipped in , and is prescribed by him : but the present ministers of england worship god after the way of the common-prayer-book : therefore , &c. the minor ( or second proposition ) cannot be denied ; their subscription before they are admitted to the ministry , together with their daily and constant practice , are sufficient evidences thereof . answ. that unwary readers may not be deceived by the ambiguity of the phrase here used , it is to be considered , that the way of worship not prescribed by god , may be either when the worship is to another thing besides or with god , which alone proves idolatry , and in which sense the minor was denied , and should have been proved : or , by another way , is meant another ceremony or rite , in which the worship of god is placed , such as was the pharisees washing their hands , which may be will-worship , if to god only , but not idolatry ; and so , if he could prove our ministers guilty of this , yet should they not be proved idolaters , any more than the pharisees were , with which neither christ nor his apostles do charge them ; but this author doth no● so much as goe about to prove the minor denied in this sense . but in a third sense , to wit , by another way of worship than what god hath prescribed , he understands another way of expression of worship , in which the worship is not placed , but is used only as an outward means for conveniency , yet accounted alterable . in which sense the minor is not denied . but the major of his argument is denied in either of these two later senses of the phrase , and the minor in the two former : in neither of which doth he goe about to prove it . i add , . that he doth vainly suppose god hath appointed or prescribed the particularities of the modes or way of his worship , in every of the sorts or kinds of worship he hath prescribed , as particularly in prayer , that it must not , in a pre-conceived and stinted form of words , imposed by rulers , be performed to him ; but that it must by the minister be done in a loose , undetermined , unpremeditate or unprescribed form of words by any man ; the which supposition is before shewed to be an errour , in the answer to the preface , sect . . ch . . sect . . ch . . sect . . ch . . sect . , , , . . in this sense in which he useth the phrase , his argument may be retorted upon himself . those that worship the true god in any other way , that is , form of expression , than he hath said he will be worshipped in , and is prescribed by him , are idolaters : but they who pray in a loose , undetermined , unpremeditated or unprescribed form of words by man ; worship the true god in another way , that is , form of expression , than he hath said he will be worshipped in , and is prescribed by him : therefore they ( among whom th●s author is one ) are idolaters . the major is his own ; the minor by his own grants stands firm , till he can shew where god hath said , he will be worshipped in , and hath prescribed such a loose form of expression in prayer ; which i yet find not . what this author hath said before , is answered before . till he brings better proof , though i will not pronounce him an idolater ; yet i shall judge him to be guilty of superstition , in counting that to be sin , which god hath not made such , and of usurpation of gods legislative power , in pharisee-like requiring observance of his own tradition as gods command ; together with evil censoriousness , rash judging , and uncharitable separation . but let us goe on . sect. . prayer in a stinted form may be worship of god of his appointment . as for the major proposition ; saith he , that to worship god after the way of the common-prayer-book , is to worship him in a way that is not of his appointment . . let any shew when and where such a stinted form of service was appointed by christ , and this part of the controversie is at an end : sure we are , there are not the least footsteps of such a way of worship to be found in the new testament , no , not in the whole book of god ( whatever is pretended by some touching liturgies ( in the sense we are speaking ) amongst the people of the jews ; ) no , nor yet was there any such a way of worship thought of , much less imposed , in the first and purer times of the gospel , for several centuries of years , after the dayes of christ , and his apostles . in the epistles of the church of smyrna ( about the martyrdome of polycarpus , ) and of the churches of vienna and lyons ( concerning their persecution , ) in the epistle of clemens ( or the church of rome ) to the church of corinth , in the writings of ignatius , justin martyr , clemens , tertullian , origen , cyprian , and their contemporaries , there is not only an utter silence of such a thing , but assertions wholly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and opposite thereunto . tertullian sayes expresly , illuc suspicientes christiani , manibus expansis , quia innocuius ; capite nudo , quia non erubescimus ; denique sine monitore , quia de pectore oramus . apol. cap. . the christians in those days ( he tells us ) looking towards heaven , ( not on their common-prayer-books ) with their hands spread abroad , &c. prayed to god without a monitor , because from their hearts . and in several places he ●estifies , that they praised god in a way of prayer and thanksgiving according to their abilities . indeed claudius de sainctes , and pamelius ( two popish divines ) tell us of liturgies comp●sed by the apostles , james , peter , and mark ; of peter 's and mark 's , cardinal bellarmine himself not only takes no particular notice , but upon the matter condemns them , as supposititious and spurious : which that they are , is abundantly demonstrated by learned mo●ney , and no more need be added thereunto . there are some also fathered upon basil , chrysostome , and ambrose : but as these l●ved about the years , , . in which time many corruptions had crept into the churches of christ ; so the spuriousness thereof , as being falsly fathered upon the persons wh●se names they bear , may easily be demonstrated : t is already done to our hands by learned morney , in his book de missa , l. . chap. . durantus himself ( the great liturgy-monger ) acknowledgeth , that neither christ , nor his apostles , used any prescribed forms , but the lords prayer , and the creed , ( that they used these , he sayes , but proves not , nor will it ever be proved to the worlds end ) that about the year . theodosius ( the church being rent by heresies ) intreated pope damasus ( at whose election , though the contest was betwixt him and ursinus , a deacon of the church , there were not fewer than one hundred thirty seven persons slain ) that some ecclesiastical office might be made , which was accordingly done by hierome , and approved by pope damasus , and mad● a rule . the unlik●lyhood of this later part of the story is manifest : theodosius was too well acquainted with the spirit of prayer , than to goe about any such thing ; had he judged it necessary , having assembled the great council of constantinople , wherein were not less than an hundred and fifty persons convened ; is it probable this good man theodosius , would in so momentous a concern , rather consult with one single person , than such an assembly as were by his authority met together ? and yet , should this be granted , it would not from hence appear , that at this time there was any devised and imposed ; all that is pretended to be done by hierome , was the appointiing an order for the reading of the scriptures , which is another thing to the imposition of forms of prayer in worship . there is one passage in socrates his ecclesiastical history , l. . c. . who lived about the year . that carrying an undeniable evidence with it , that at that time there were no liturgies , we cannot pass over in silence , t is this : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , wherein he tells us , that among all the christians in that age , scarce two were to be found that used the same words in prayer . not to tire the reader in this disquisition ; though one part of the liturgy was not long after introduced by one pope , and another part by another ; yet till gregories time ( who , to the honour of liturgies be it spoken , was the very worst of all the bishops of rome that preceded him ) viz. about the year . was there any considerable use , or any imposing of them ; yea till the time of p●pe hadrian ( which was about the year . was it not ( as i find ) by publick authority imposed : then indeed the emperour charles the great ( being moved thereunto by the foresaid hadrian ) by his civil authority commands the use of a liturgy , ( viz. gregories liturgy , as it is thought ) to which he compels his ministers , by threats and punishments , the usual attendencies and support of liturgies ever since their production in the world . the summ is , that in as much as first it cannot be proved ( the contrary being most manifest in the scripture ) that any liturgy was enjoyned by christ , or his apostles , or in use in the first churches planted by them ; ly . it is evident , that for the first four hundred years and more after christ , there was no liturgy framed , nor any by solemn authority imposed , to the year eight hundred ; it follows undeniably from hence , that to worship god in the way of a liturgy , or stinted forms of prayer , is to worship him in a way that is not of his appointment . answ. . it is to be remembred , that , as i said before , were his conclusion granted , yet ministers would not be proved to be idolaters ; all worshipping of god , in a way that is not of his appointment , being not idolatry , except therein divine or religious worship be exhibited to a creature . . that his own argument , whose way of worship is not prescribed without a stinted form of prayer , would as well prove himself an idolater , as the ministers of england . . that he still acknowledgeth , that the worship according to the common-prayer-book , is the worship of the true god , nor doth he shew , that , according to it , any other is worshipped . . that he doth not except against the matter of the prayers in the common-prayer-book , no nor the particular forms of expression , as if they were not agreeable to the scriptures , or indecent , or inept ▪ but , . that all liturgies , or stinted forms of prayer ( and consequently this ) are not of gods appointment , but of humane invention . . that they are unduly imposed on ministers . . that ministers do sinfully , yea idolatrously use them , because it is a way of worship not appointed by god. the two former of these reach not the ministers of england , but the composers and imposers ; it is the third thing which is pertinent to the present crimination , which may occasion to enquire , . whether stinted forms of prayer , and service of god , which are not otherwise faulty , than in that they are stinted , may not be lawfully used by a minister of the gospel in his publick ministration ? . whether such prayers and service may not be a worship of god in a way that is of his appointment ? i affirm both , and to what is said against either , i answer , . that christ did , in appointing the lords prayer to be used by his apostles , matth. . luke . . the salutation to be used by the seventy disciples , luke . . appoint such a stinted form of service . . that we have footsteps of such a way of worship in the new testament , in his justifying and countenancing the crying of hosanna , that is , save us now , taken from psal. . , . ( as mr. ainsworth in his annotation observes ) by the multitude . and the children , matth. . . . mark . with the disciples , luke , . john . . in christs using the forms which david used before in the psalms , matth. . . he prayes in the form used , psal. . . luke . . in the form used , psal. . . in the apostles use of a form of prayer in his epistles , rom. . . rom. . . cor. . . cor. . . cor. . . gal ▪ . . ephes. . . phil. . . phil. . . col. . . thes. . . thes. . . thes. . . thes. . , , . tim. . tim. . . tit. . . philem. . heb. . . pet. . . pet. . . john . jude . revel . . . in the old testament , numb . . , , , . chron. . . . chron. . . chron. . . chron. . . chron. . . in the titles of psal. . and . jerem. . . ezra . . zech. . . jude . revel . . , . revel . . . hos. . , . isai. . . deut. . . and . . . isai. . . mr. ainsworth himself ( than whom none was more opposite to any set form , as appeared by his avouching in his writing to mr. paget , the reasons in the separatists apology , p. . against using the words of the lords-prayer in prayer , to which mr. paget hath answered , in his arrow against the separation of the brownists , p. . &c. ) in his annot . on exod. . . reciting the form of the later jews at their passover , saith , vnto these phrases the new testament seemeth to have reference , when it speaketh of the cup of blessing ▪ cor. . . and of singing an hymn , mark. . and after , these observations of the jews , while their common-wealth stood , and to this day , may give light to some particulars in the passover that christ kept ; as why they lay down , one leaning on anothers bosome , john . . ( a sign of rest and security ) and stood not , as at the first passover , neither sate on high , as we use . why christ rose from supper , and washed , and sate down again , john . , . . why he blessed , or gave thanks , for the bread apart , and for the cup ( or wine ) apart , mark . , . and why it is said , he took the cup after supper , luke . . also concerning the hymn which they sung at the end , mat. . . and why paul calleth it , the shewing forth of the lords death , cor. . . as the jews usually called their passover , haggadah , that is , shewing , or declaration . from which observations we may gather , that our lord christ did use the forms in blessing ( which is a part of prayer ) which the jews , without particular command of god , had taken up : and that st. paul alludes to them , expressing the use of christians , by the phrases of the jews , which shews the christians used their forms . yea , that the apostles , in many things of their ministry , retained the customes in their synagogues , in matters of worship and ecclesiastical government , is avouched by mr. stillingflete in his irenicum , part d. ch . after mr. selden , dr. lightfoot , dr : hammond , mr. thorndike , and many others . which things do abundantly prove , that this author doth too too inconsiderately write , that there are not the least footsteps of a stinted form of service , in the worship of god , to be found in the new testament ▪ no , not in the whole book of god , amongst the people of the jews ; no , nor yet was there any such a way of worship thought of , much less imposed , in the first and purer times of the gospel , for several centuries of years , after the dayes of christ , and his apostles . i do not gainsay what this author writes about the liturgies fathered on some of the apostles , and some of the ancients : neither will i justifie the use or imposition of them , as they have been in the later ages ; only this i say , ( which is sufficient for the present purpose ) . that neither the words of justin martyr in his d. apology to ant●ninus , that the president did send forth prayers and thanksgivings , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as he had ability , the people testifying their consent , by saying , amen . nor the words of tertullian , alleged by this author , out of his apologetique against the gentiles , c. . that the christians prayed for the emperour , looking towards heaven , and without a monitor , because from the heart , do necessarily exclude stinted forms of prayer . the words of justin martyr may be understood of the intention of the affections , or duration of prayers , which may be in stinted forms ; nor is it unlikely , but that thanksgivings were some of them such , as in their psalms which they sung , which pliny mentions in his epistle to trajan in that age ; and those it is likely were stinted forms : and they might pray without a monitor or prompter , which excludes the suggestion of others , and from the heart , includes of their own accord , and yet pray in stinted expressions : yea , the things mentioned that they prayed for , seem to intimate set forms , agreeable to the things he mentions as prayed for . . however , it is apparent , if not from tertullians book of prayer , yet out of cyprians book concerning the lords prayer , that christians did , and conceived they ought , in publique prayer , to use the prescript words of the lords prayer , and that they had some other forms then , whieh are still retained , which those words intimate , therefore also the priest , a preface being premised before prayer , prepares the minds of the brethren , by saying , lift up your hearts : that when the people answer , we lift them up to the lord , they may be minded , that they ought to think on nothing else but the lord. which , if it prove not an entire liturgy to have been then in use , yet a worship of god by a stinted form of words , was sure thought on in cyprians time ; and that this author writes too confidently , when he saith , the least footsteps of such a way of worship are not found , nor were thought of in those times . it follows . sect. . common-prayer-book worship shuts not out of doors the exercise of the gift of prayer . to which we add , . that worship which is an obstruction of any positive duty charged by christ , to be performed by the saints , is not a worship that is of his appointment . but this is undeniably true of the common-prayer book worship . therefore , that christ did upon his ascension give unto his church , officers , as signal characters of his love to , and care of it , will not be denied , ephes . . is an evidence hereof beyond exception . that to th●se officers he gave gifts and qualifications , every way suiting the empl●yment he called them forth unto , cannot without a most horrid advance against the wisdome , faithfulness , love and care of christ towards the beloved of his soul , be gainsaid . that he not only expects , but solemnly charges upon these officers , an improvement of the gifts bestowed upon them , for the edification of his body , is evidently compriz'd , and very frequently remarked in the scripture , tim. . . cor. . . ephes. . . prov. . . luke . . to imagine after all this , that any worship should be of the institution of christ , that should shut out of doors , as unnecessary , the exercise of the gifts given by him , to be made use of in the solemn discharge of the worship of his house , is such an imputation of folly to him , as may not be charged upon any person of an ordinary capacity or understanding : yet this is righteously to be imputed to him ( absit blasphemia ) if the common-prayer-book worship be a worship of his appointment : the exercise of the gift of prayer ( to mention no more ) being wholly excluded hereby . nor will it in the least take off the weight of this argument , to say , that liberty is granted for the exercise of this gift before and after sermon : for , . the whole worship of god , may , according to these mens principles , be discharged without any sermon at all ; and it is manifest it is frequently so , at one time or other , in most of the assemblies of england . . those their prayers are also bounded and limited by the th . canon of the constitutions and canons ecclesiastical . . we had alwayes thought , that christ having given gifts unto men , did require the use of those gifts at all times , when ever persons were called to the performance of that service for which they were designedly given by him , by vertue of the fore-mentioned precepts . when christ hath given a gift of prayer unto his children , and charged them to stirr up the gift given them , and not to napkin their talent , we had verily thought , that when ever they had been called forth to the performance of that duty , he did really intend and expect , that they should be found in the exercise of the gift given ; and see as yet no reason to change our apprehensions in this matter . answ. the major proposition is not in all cases true . the resting on the sabbath day was a positive duty charged by god , yet the sacrificing , which was an obstruction of that duty , called by our lord christ , prophaning the sabbath , matth. . . was worship of gods appointment . following of christ , and preaching the gospel , were worship of christs appointment , and yet they were obstructions to positive duties required to be done to parents , wives , and children therefore it is not true , unless the thing , which is an obstruction , be such of its own nature , of it self , and not by accident , and so necessarily and universally such an obstruction . but not to insist on this , the minor proposition is many wayes faulty . . it is supposed , that the common-prayer book worship is a different sort of worship ▪ from such as is used by those , which exercise the gift of prayer , as he terms it ; which is absurd : for then so many several forms of words as are used , should be so many several sorts of worship ; all expressions , that are not immediately inspired , should be will-worship ; and so preachers several methods , and expressions in preaching , should be several sorts of worship . this is that which i assert , that the same petitions , the same confessions , and thanksgivings , for matter , are the same prayer , and worship , though in various expressions ; and that the same prayers , read out of the common-prayer book , and the prayers of the preachers , framed by themselves , and uttered , if they ask the same things in other phrases , are the same prayers , and worship : and they that can joyn with the one , and say amen to them ; may as lawfully , and safely , without sin , joyn with , and say amen to the other . . this authors phrase doth intimate , that ability to conceive , compose , and utter in variety of expressions , petitions to god , is the gift of prayer ; and the exercise of it , is the exercise of that gift ; which is false : sith the gift of prayer is by the moving of the affections , directing the mind , exciting faith , as the text alledged by this author , rom. . . proves , the spirits work being there to acquaint us , what we are to pray for ; and to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to over-intercede for us , with groans unspoken ; or , as it is read , which cannot be uttered : and therefore , no● in the inspiration of words , or method , or fitting a person with various , or unpremeditated expressions . yea , those who express not , who do not compose their petitions in any order or method , as in ejaculatory prayers , such as nehemiahs prayer was , nehem. . . hannahs , sam. . . hezekiahs , isai. . those who premeditate before they pray , as david did , psal. . . have as truly , and perhaps more rightly , and do exercise the gift of prayer , as those who in never so extemporary manner , enlarge themselves in various expressions and petitions . it is true , the author of the discourse concerning the interest of words in prayer , ch . . tells us , the gift and grace of prayer are two things : this , he derives from the spirit of adoption ; that , he defines to be an ability of mind , to form words expressive of such desires of our hearts , as are according to the will of god , conjoyned with a faculty of memo●y , and of expression , and elocution ; which , he saith , is partly natural , partly by industry attainable . but the gift of prayer here , by our authors words , pag. . is the donation of the spirit ; and usually the exercise of it in expressions unpremeditated , or conceived in opposition to praying by a book , or written set forms kept in the memory , is termed praying in the spirit , and so no natural or acquired ability ; which is to be observed , that the ambiguity of expressions may not deceive the unwary reader . now if this be observed they that pray in a set form , and those that read the common-prayer , may be truly said to pray in the spirit , if their heart goe with their words ; and to exercise the gift of prayer , if the gift of prayer be as the discourse cited doth describe it . . the gift of prayer , by alleging ephes. ▪ should seem , by this author , to be accounted a ministerial gift , proper to them ; for so were the gifts mentioned ephes. . . which if so ▪ then it is not common to the saints , nor the exercise of it a positive duty cha●ged by christ to be performed by the saints , except they be ministers ; and so it is not lawful for them , except they be ministers , to seek , or to use the gift of prayer . if they have it , by this authors arguing , they are to exercise it , as well as ministers ; and it is as unlawful for them to pray by a book , as for the ministers ; they so praying , worship in a way not appointed by god , and are idolaters , as well as the ministers ; and separation is to be from them ▪ as well as from ministers . whereas ▪ i● the gift of prayer be partly natural , partly acquired , then it is lawful for ministers , or other saints , to make use of any lawful means , which may acquire that gift , such are any that may be a directory to know what they a●e to pray for , that may advantage them , for remembring , composure , or elocution , conference , imitation of others , reading , meditation , self-examination ; and if the common-prayer book be a help ( as some conceive it is ) it may be lawfully used , or any others treatises , or forms of prayer , for the obtaining of it . and if so , the common . prayer book worship may be , so far from being an obstruction to the positive duty of exercising the gift of prayer , that it may further it , by acquainting us with many things we should ask for : as the homilies also may be helps for the knowledge of what doctrine preachers are to teach their people . and then this authors argument may be thus retorted . that form may be lawfully used for worship , which may be a means to further any positive duty , charged by christ to be performed by the saints . but such may be the forms of prayers in the liturgy of the church of england . therefore . the major is grounded on the rule given by divines about the decalogue : that which requires a duty , requires the means conducing thereto . the minor is proved , in that the common-prayer book directs what things are to be prayed for , by reason of the brevity of collects ; the responds , the frequent use , the plain expressions , help the memory and elocution , wherein the acquired gift of prayer consists ; therefore it is not an obstruction , but a help to the gift of prayer . but this author , though he may perhaps count this tolerable in others , yet not in ministers ; let 's view what he saith of them . he alledgeth eph. . . and would inferr from thence , that all ministers have the gift of prayer , and are to use it ; that the common-prayer book worship shuts it out of doors , as unnecessary , and therefore is not of christs appointment . but , . the text expresseth not the several sorts of qualifications , but the several sorts of officers . . if it be supposed , that ministerial gifts are also implyed ; yet whether extraordinary , or ordinary , may be doubted . . if ordinary gifts , there may be a question , whe●her the gift of prayer , as he means it , were one : that is , whether christ hath required ▪ that every minister should be able , on all occasions , to express himself without any stinted form , either conceived by himself , or composed by others , to make known the requests , which it concerns his people , to whom he is pastour , in the most solemn and publick auditory , to ask of god , in their behalf , in words and elocution fitting the matter and auditory . i doubt not but the minister should be able to express the requests of the people , as he should be able to declare the mind of god to the people ; yet neither the one ▪ nor the other , is of necessity to be done , or the minister tied to do it every way , but the best way he is able , or at least , that way as is fit for the end of his expressions , to wit , the peoples understanding , not the ostentation of his parts . the apostles could preach without study , but timothy was to give attendance to reading , to meditate , to give himself wholly to th●se things , whereby his profiting might appear to all , and yet had a gift given by prophecy , tim. . , , . ministers are to preach the word now , but they are not tyed to preach without notes , without study , without other helps which god affords : nor are ministers bound to express themselves alwayes without pre-conceived , or prescribed forms in prayer , and yet they may faithfully discharge their work . now god doth not give gifts , as he did in the apostles times ; and therefore the same readiness and exuberancy of expressions , or composure of petitions , is not to be expected of ministers now , as was of them . · i add , that though the apostles said , acts . . we will give our selves continually to prayer , and to the ministry of the word . and st ▪ paul , tim. . . exhorts , tha● first of all , supplications , prayers , intercessions , and giving of thanks be made for all men , for kings , and all that are in authority : yet we read not , that this is made the ministers work , to express the common necessities of the church , in a publick auditory , or any rules about the form or manner of praying . nor do we find , that either christ , or his apostles , used any forms of prayer , before or after their preaching ; and therefore conceive not this to be the proper work of a minister , or that either way of praying is determined ▪ and therefore both may lawfully be used by the minister , or other christians . nor doth the one way of worship shut out of doors the other ; or the minister , by using the common-prayer book , exclude conceived prayer by the speakers . if they were tyed , by the governours , to use no other than the common-prayer book expressions ; yet this is not to be imputed , either to the common-prayer book , or its way of worship , or to the ministers , but unto those who do so rigidly impose it . i add further , that were there a prohibition of using any other than the common-prayer , yet this were not a shutting out of doors christs institution , unless it were proved christs institution , that at all times in prayer no stinted form should be used . nor doth it shut out of doors the gift of prayer , unless it be proved ▪ they only have the gift of prayer , who use their own conceived expressions ; which if so , not only those who use the forms of prayer , though with never so much fervency of spi●it , which they read or remember in the common-prayer book , or in the practice of piety , or any other such book of mens composure : but also those , who use the words of the psalms , or the lords-prayer , yea that do say amen to the words of any preacher before sermon , or any that gives thanks afore meals , should shut out of doors the gift of prayer , or the exercise of it , sith he useth not the gift he hath , to wit , the ability of mind to form words , and to utter them , which is the definition of the gift of prayer before given . there are many in the congregation perhaps yea some women that can form and utter words as fit for prayer as the minister ; will not this author have this gift of prayer shut out of doors , and yet not conclude that a positive duty is obstructed thereby ? besides , there may be a restraint of a duty , as unseasonable , sith affirmative precepts bind not ad semper , to be done at all times , perhaps time will not permit , or weather , or some accidents , or more necessary business ; and yet the gift not shut out of doors , as unnecessary , but as only inconvenient at that time . do not the most able preachers sometimes omit the exercise of their gifts , and yet count not them shut out of doors , as unnecessary ? yea , doth not the apostle , cor. ● . put some restraints upon prophecying , to keep order ? did he then shut out of doors , as unnecessary , the gift of prophecy ? i have read , that the separatists in the low countries , have spent so much time on the lords day in debating causes , and matters of discipline , that they have omitted exercise of their gifts in some other ordinances ; and yet i presume they have not shut them out of doors , as unnecessary . if at one meeting of christians , no other thing had been done , but the reading of st. pauls epistles , as he appointed , col. . . yet were not the exercise of a●chippus his ministry thereby shut out of doors , as unnecessary , but only suspended for that time . and this would be no napkining up of his talent , nor such exclusion of the gift of preaching or prophecying , as , with others , this author clamou●ously inveighs against the th . canon directs preachers what they should pray for , doth not limit or bound them in the words or matter : it saith , they shall move the people to joyn with them in prayer , in this form , or to this effect , as briefly as conveniently they may : not forbidding to pray for other things , or in other words , than are there set down . and blessed be the almighty , that yet ministers have liberty at all times to express themselves in prayer and preaching , as fully as there is need ; that the kings majesty invites to fasting and prayer ; that , notwithstanding it is to be bewailed , that the worship of god is no better performed than it is ; and that the intemperate abuses of some , have caused more severe restraint on others , than were to be wished : yet there is so much purity of worship and doctrine ▪ as that separation is unnecessary . and this author , as if he imitated the gloss in the canon law , non satis discretus esset , &c. writes causelesly , if not blasphemously , that folly may righteously be imputed to christ , if the common-prayer book worship be a worship of his appointment . he goes on thus . sect. . common-prayer book worship is not of pure humane invention . but ly . the common-prayer book wo●ship , is a worship , of which we find no footsteps in the scripture ( nor in some centuries of years after christ ) as hath already been demonstrated : whence it follows , that 't is a worship of pure humane invention , which is not only not of christs appointment , but contrary to the very nature of instituted wo●ship ( as is proved in our first argument ) and to very many precepts of the lord in th● scripture , exod. . , deut. . and . . prov. . jer. . matth. . , . mark . , . rev. . . the mind of god in which scriptures we have exemplified , lev. . , , , . josh. . . &c. judg. . kings . chron . . answ this author runs on in his gross mistakes , as if the form of words in the common-prayer book were the worship , that it were a several sort of worship from the prayers made by a preacher of his own conception , and that such prayers were worship of christs institution , and not the other . which mistakes are shewed before : and what he saith here , is answered , either in this chapter , sect . . or chapt . . sect . . the common-prayer book worship is no more a pure humane invention , than preachers conceived-prayers : nor is it any idol , forbidden exod. . , . nor any prophecy added to the book of the revelation , forbidden revel . . . nor such an ephod as gideon made , judg. . . nor such a not seeking god after the due order , as was the carrying of the ark in a cart , and uzzah 's putting his hand to it , chron. . . nor such an invention forbidden , as was the altar of damascus , imitated by uriah , kings . and therefore it is sufficient to deny what is here said , without forming of an argument . as for josh . &c. it makes for the common-prayer-book , not against it : sith that altar was allowed of , though it were for religious signification , and yet not by divine institution ; and therefore proves , that all inventions of men , whereby our worship of god is signified , are not unlawful , if they be not made necessary , nor the worship of god placed in the things so invented , or their use . it follows , sect. . common-prayer book worship is the same with the worship of the reformed churches . . that worship which is not necessary for the edification , comfort , or preservation of the saints , in the faith and vnity of the gospel , is not of the institution of christ : but such is the worship of the common-prayer book : therefore . the major ( or first proposition ) will not be denied . the lord jesus having freeed his disciples from all obligations to the ceremonies of the law , institutes nothing de novo , but what he kn●w to be necessary ( at least would be so by vertu● of his institution ) for the ends assigned : which was the great aim in all gospel administrations , ephes . . to . col. . acts . . rom. . , . cor. . . and . , ▪ , , . cor . tim . . that the common-prayer book w●●sh●p is n●t necessary for the edification , comfort , or preservation of the saints , in the faith and vnity of the g●spel ( what ever is pretended by its admirers ) might many wayes be demonstrated . take one p●●grant instance instead of all ▪ that will make it exceeding man●fest : the churches of christ , for the first four centuries of years , and more , after his ascension , knew not any thing of such a worsh●p ( as hath been already demonstrated ) not to mention the reformed churches at this day , to whom it is as a polluted , accu●sed , abominable thing ) yet , than those first and purer churches , for light , consolation , truth of doctrine , and gospel-vnion , hitherto there hath not been any extant in the world , more famous , or excellent ; no , nor by many degrees comparable to them . but we shall not further prosecute this argument , enough hath been said , to demonstrate , that the common prayer book worsh●p is not of the appointment of the lord : therefore , such as worship him in the way thereof , worship him in a way that is not of his prescription . if the former , notwithstanding all that hath been said , be scrupled by any , we referr him to tracts written by smectymnuus , v. powel ; to a treatise , entituled , a discourse concerning the interest of words in prayer , by h. d. m. a. the common-prayer book unmask'd ; as also to a treatise lately published by a learned ( but nameless ) author , entituled , a discourse concerning liturgies , and their imposition : in which that matter is industriously and la●gely debat●d . a●sw this author still continues his confounding of the worship of the common-prayer book , with the form of it , that is ▪ the method , and phra●e , and manner of it , which no man that speaks distinctly ▪ calls the common-prayer book worship . the common-prayer book worship is no other than the prayers , praises , lessons , ministration of the sacraments : and these are of christs institution , and are necessary for the edification , comfort , or preservation of the saints , in the faith and unity of the gospel ; and accordingly the mi●or proposition is false which denies it . but sith this author , by worship , understands the forms and modes of it , though they be not prescribed or determined in scripture ; or the kind of wo●ship , in respect of those forms : meaning , that the worship , for example , p●ayer , prai●e , and the like , which are expressed or performed by forms or modes not prescribed by christ , though the kind or so●t of worship be of christs institution ; yet , because it is performed in such forms or modes , as are not necessary for the edi●ication , comfort , or p●eservation of the saints , in the faith and unity of the gospel , it is so adulterae●d thereby , that it is not of the institution of christ. in which sense the maj●● proposition is to be denied , and the argument may be 〈◊〉 thus : that worship , which in respect of the mode or form of performing , is not necessary for the edif●cation , comfort , or p●eservation of the saints , in the faith and unity of the gospel , is not of the institution of christ : but such is the extemporary , conceived prayer of preachers , and others , such is the praising of god in the english metre ; the reading of the scriptures , according to ordinary division of chapters and verses , with the contents of the chapters : therefore . the major is his own , the minor stands good , till it be shewed , where christ hath appointed such extemporary praying , or such praising , such reading the scripture so divided : to which i might add , in hearing , taking notes of sermons , preachers using notes in the pulpit , with sundry more ; but i forbear . as for the texts alledged , ephes. . . &c. it speaks not of worship , and its institution by christ ; nor what is the necessary requisite to such worship , as is instituted by christ : but only of gifts , that is , preaching officers , and the end and use of those gifts . col. . . speaks not of worship , or what is requisite , that it be of christs institution : but tells us , that seducers , which taught worshipping of angels , held not the head , that is , christ : and that from him all the body ( that is , the church ) by joynts and bands , having nourishment ministred , and knit together , increaseth with the increase of god. acts . . speaks not at all of worship , or its institution by christ , or christs aim in gospel-administrations , or what is requisite that worship be of his institution : rom. . , . much less ; it speaks of the cleanness of things of themselves , the uncleanness to him that thinks them so ; and our duty not to grieve our brother with our meats . cor. . . tells us , of the inexpediency of some things lawful , in that they edifie not ; nothing of christs aim in his institutions , or what is requisite to his instituted worship . cor. . , , , , . tells us , of the benefit of prophecying , the end and use of spiritual gifts ; nothing of christs aim in his institution of worship , or the requisite to such institution . cor. . . doth not mention any thing ▪ but pauls affection and estate . tim. . . nothing but the incommodity of fables and genealogies . which should be observed by the reader , that he may be wary , how he trusts to this author's , and other separatists multiplying texts impertinently , that they be not ensnared by them ; and that such persons may see , what cause they have to repent of such abusive wresting of scripture . as for that which he saith of the common-prayer book worship , if he mean thereby the prayers or praises in the forms therein , i will not say , they are necessary for the edification , comfort , or preservation of the saints , in the faith and vnity of the gospel : i yield , that they are not necessary ; those ends may be obtained by other forms of prayer , or rather by preaching , confessions of faith , and reading of the holy scriptures ; unto which the lessons and portions of scripture , confessions of faith , in the common-prayer book , are as conducible as other . whether the churches of christ , in the four first centuries , were so excellent , as he saith : and whether they knew not any thing of such a worship as the common prayer book worship , is a disputable point , et adhuc sub judice lis est . what is said , that to the reformed churches , at this day , the common-prayer book worship is as a polluted , accursed , abominable thing , i find no cause to believe , except he mean by them , the churches of the separatists . i find calvin , in his th . epistle , saying indeed , in anglicana liturgia , qualem describitis , multas video fuisse tolerabiles ineptias : yet in his th . epistle , he saith . quod ad formulam precum & rituum ecclesiasticorum , valde probo , ut certa illa extet , &c. and i find maresius of groning , in his academical decision of some questions , qu. . alledging those words of calvin , and disputing against francis johnson his latine answer to carpenter against liturgies , and asserting liturgical forms to be admitted by all the reformed churches : nor do i find any thing to the contrary in voetius his ecclesiastical policy , or any other , that have lately written , who have gainsaid these speeches ; and therefore , i conceive , that this author , in this speech , hath too great a smack of that , which is in one of tullies epistles , said of such men : qui semel vere●undiae fines transilierit , eum gnaviter impudentem esse oportet . neither smectymnuus , nor the assembly , nor mr. baxter in his disputation of a form of liturgy , nor any other of the presbyterians , that i know , have written such things of the common-prayer book , as this author vents . if they are to be read , he that would find truth , should also read the answers to smectymnuus , ball 's tryal of separation , paget 's arrow against the separatists , with others . as for ● . powel his tract , i find in it such a sardle of false principles , misallegations of texts , non-syllogizing , confused dictates , with vain gi●des , that me-thinks no sober or judicious person should be moved by it . the common-prayer vnmasked , i have not seen : the discourse of the interest of words in prayer , doth not advantage this author , to prove separation from ministers , or their ministry , by reason of the common-prayer . the discourse of liturgies i have read , and find in it little logick , a great many words , which if they were reduced to syllogistical form , would appear to be a bulk without sinews : not to mention the many absurd dictates ; among which i have observed this , that p. . the l●rds prayer is made to belong to the oeconomy of the old testament , and to argue thence to the new , is to deny christ to be ascended on high . but i must attend the author here , who adds , sect. . no particularity instituted is a meer circumstance , yet particularities undetermined are . object . if to what hath hitherto been proposed , it be said , that the liturgy , or common-prayer book , is no essential part of worship , but meerly circumstantial : praying , t is true , is part of worship , but praying in this or that form is not so , but meerly a circumstance thereof : and therefore , though it be true , that the present ministers of england worship god after the way of the common-prayer book ; yet it follows not , that they worship him after a way that is not of his appointment . to this we answer , . that many things are strenuously supposed , as the basis upon which the weight of this objection is laid , which the framers thereof knowing to be no easie task to demonstrate , do earnestly beg us to grant unto them : which being matter of greater moment than many are aware of , we shall not part with , on such easie terms . t is supposed , first , that there are some things in the instituted worship of christ , that are meerly circumstances thereof , as such . secondly , that it is lawful for saints to pray in a form. thirdly , that forms of prayer imposed , are but meer circumstances of worship , and no essential parts thereof . fourthly , that circumstances of worsh●p , as such , are not determined by the lord in the scripture , but left to the wills of men , to determine therein as they shall judge meet . all unproved . of the last of we have already spoken , and shall not here re-assume the debate thereof . touching the first , that there are s●me things in the instituted worship of christ , that are meerly circumstances thereof , as such , we crave liberty to deny , which , till the proof be attempted , may suffice . circumstances in the worship of christ , attending religious actions , as actions , we grant ; ) but circumstances of worship , as such , will never be proved : ) to inferr , that because time and place , with sundry things of the like nature , are circumstances in worship , therefore there are circumstances of worship , as such , is frivol●us : those things being the attendments of religious actions , common to any civil actions of the like nature , to be performed by the sons of men ; no action to be managed by a community , can be orderly performed by them , without such an assignment of time and place : publick prayer being so to be managed , as a religious action , hath the circumstances before mentioned attending it ; and so it would , were it a meer civil action , to be performed by a community , though it related not at all to the worship of god. answ. it is not true , that the objection supposeth , that some things in the instituted worship of christ , are but meer circumstances thereof , as such : meaning , that any particularity of that action , which christ hath prescribed for his worship , being instituted by him , is a meer arbitrary circumstance , and not a necessary part of that worship . it is held in the lords supper , and all institutions of christ , in which particularities are expressed , there should be strict observation of them , as part of the worship : but in things not determined , liberty is allowed to vary ; and therefore , if christ have not instituted , that you shall pray without a book , or set form , prayer by it may be lawfully done . the distinction of circumstances in , and of the worship of christ ; of religi●us actions , as actions , or as religi●us , a●e but unnecessary nice●ies , so long as the meaning of the objection is manifest , that the praying in this , or that form , is not a part of the worship ; as if without it , the worship were not , or not according to christs institution , but an accident of it , which may adesse vel abesse , which is in effect , if ● understand this author , the same which he grants , that there are circumstances in the w●rship of christ , attending religi●us actions , as actions which are not in their particula●ities expresly prescribed by christ and if we agree in the thing , it is but frivolous to wrangle about words . sect. . praying in a form , may be praying in the spirit . . saith this author , that t is lawful for saints to pray in a form ( i. e. to tye themselves to a written stinted form of words in prayer ) is not yet proved , nor like to be ; t is too large a field for us to enter into : nor is it needful to do so , till it be proved , that to pray in the form of the common-prayer book , or imposed devised liturgies , is so : yet in transitu , we crave leave humbly to offer , that to pray in a form , as before explained , is altogether unlawful , being , . a quenching of the spirit of prayer . ly . a rendring useless the donation of the spirit , as a spirit of prayer , unto the children of god. ly . directly opposite unto the many positive precepts of christ , before instanc'd in , of stirring up the gifts given to us of god , improving the talents he hath been graciously pleased to intrust us withall . ly . if it be lawful for saints to pray in a form , t is lawful , either because they have not the spirit ; or that having the spirit , he is not a sufficient help to them in their approaches to god : if the first , they are not saints , rom. . . to assert the second , is little less than blasphemy , besides its direct opposition to rom. . . answ. the position of this author here , by his words , appears to be , that not only it is altogether unlawful for ministers , but also for all saints , all that have the spirit of god , to pray in a form : and though he seems to mean by his addition , that he counts it only then unlawful , when they tye themselves , ● whether by vow , or customary use , or once only , to a stinted form of words in prayer , without variation , written , not conceived by him that prays , and kept in his memory ; yet his arguments are against using any set form , by any saint , conceived by himself , and kept in memory without writing , though but once used : for then the spirit of prayer is quenched , its donation is rendred useless , it s against the positive precepts of stirring up our gift , improving our talent , disabling the spirit ; which are at no time to be done : and if so , no way of worship of christs institution , and therefore idolatrous , and , by this authors doctrine , to be separated from ; and therefore this authors principles ▪ carry him , not only to separate from hearing the present ministers , but also from every saint , that not only often , but once useth a set form , devised by himself , in family exercises , as before meals , or other times : and , if he be of mr. ainsworths mind , in the controversie between him and mr. r●binson of old , he must not only separate from the publique communion of the church of england , but also from the private religious communion of every one that joyns in common prayer , or in private stinted forms of prayer , except they profess their repentance : and if we should prove it lawful to pray in the form of the common-prayer book , or imposed devised liturgy ( which seems no hard thing to do , if we suppose the ministers , and common-prayer book worshippers , not to have the spirit ; for then , by his arguments , they do not quench , make useless , neglect the gift of the spirit ; and therefore are not forbidden a stinted form , which would overthrow this argument against the ministers ) yet we must do somewhat more ; we must prove it lawful for the saints , who have the spirit , to use once a stinted form of words , though it be the lords prayer only . which i think will be done by this argument : that prayer may be lawful to saints , in which neither is any thing done forbidden by god , nor any thing omitted which god requires thereto , but such may be praying in a form : therefore . to what this author humbly offers , i answer , . that the things he offers , proceed only upon mistakes : that the praying the spirit , ephes. . . jude . in the holy ghost , is meant of extemporal , unpremeditated , unprescribed forms of words ▪ whereas , praying in the spirit , is meant of praying by the operation of the spirit within , not of prayer in respect of the form of words wherein it is expressed ; which may be gathered concerning the former text , in that the prayers there , which are to be in the spirit , are all , alwayes with all prayer and supplication , watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication : which cannot be well expounded of other prayers , than such as are solitary , of which many are only ejaculatory , without words : and this is confirmed by the words , ephes . where the effect of being filled with the spirit , is the speaking to themselves in psalms , and hymns , and spiritual songs , singing and making melody to the lord in their heart . besides , as all the directions , eph●s . . , , , , . are precepts of what each christian should do by and for himself : so is v. . and so , if not solely , yet chiefly meant of solitary prayers , to which words are not necessary ; and therefore , praying in the spirit , is by the operation of the spirit in the heart , not by the spirits immediate forming of words in the tongue . and the same is to be said of jude . of cor. . . i have spoken before , in answer to ch . . sect . . . the ability to express petitions in words extemporary , unpremeditated , is termed , the spirit of prayer , as if it were in every one that hath the sanctifying spirit of god , and they only ; for so the alleging rom. . . . for it , in the th . argument , must inferr . but who knows not by experience ▪ that many that have not the spirit of god , have yet this ability to admiration , as is related by camden , saravia , the author of the relation of the conspiracy concerning hacket , in q elizabeths time , and many others : and on the other side , many whose holiness of life shewed they had the spirit , yet not this ability ; and therefore it is ill called , the spirit of prayer , whereby many unwary souls are ensnared with the opinion , as if such as can express themselves fluently in words , largely , and with shew of affection , were immediately moved by the spirit ; and they distill thereby into many inconsiderate persons , errours and evil principles : whereas it is acknowledged to be but an acquired ability , with help of natural endowments , and many times is proved to be but a counterfeit and deceitful practice . now then , in answer to each of the particulars , i say , . that the spirit is not quenched , as is forbidden , thes. . . by a set form of prayer , used by another , and read out of a book , any otherwise , than by a pronouncing without a book , a conceived form ; the ability of another to conceive and utter , for matter and words , is as much limited by the one , as by the other . it is true , when prejudice is against reading , or the forms read , or the reader huddles it over , or delivers it coldly , it much abates the affection of the hearer : and so it is in saying over a conceived prayer , if there be a prejudice against the person , or his delivery be dull and heavy . and it is not to be denied , that lively affectionate expressions , with readiness of speech , and apt emphatical words , have much energy on hearers ; and so sometimes it is , when a written sermon or prayer is well and pathetically pronounced : so that the form doth but lessen the affection by accident , not necessarily , and of it self ; and thus either when a stinted form is pronounced by another , or by the person praying , it may be very incommodious to use it , usually such forms being read or said without heed or feeling . yet universally it is not so : nor is the quenching of the spirit ( meant thes. . . ) meant of the spirit of prayer , more than any other exercise of godliness or gifts , whether ordinary or extraordinary : nor is the quenching the spirit , the act of another , but of him in whom the spirit is quenched ; who , either by his sinful life , or by cares , and riches , and pleasures of this life , and lusts of other things , ch●kes the word of god ( which is the sword of the spirit , ephes. . . ) as our saviour speaks , luke . and they bring no fruit to perfection ( unto which sense the following exhortations , of not despising prophecyings , and proving all things , v. , . do incline me ) and so the sense is , quench not the operation of the spirit , by the preaching of the word , whether by embracing errours , or by evil lusts : or if , by the spirit , be meant , the comforts or extraordinary gifts of it : in any of these wayes , the quenching is by the persons own act , in whom the spirit is quenched : it is neither , by any interpreter i meet with , or any shew of reason , applyed to the extinguishing or slackning the ability of another , to utter and conceive prayers , by publique use of a liturgy , which doth not any otherwise quench that ability , than any other way of expression doth the ability of the hearer , which must be stinted ; and so , the spirit of prayer , as this author terms it , be quenched by the speaker in all joynt-prayer , unless it be allowed all to speak together , contrary to cor. . . whence i conclude , that this text is most impertinent : and though it be , that some mens reading , and in like sort , some mens speaking without book , some using of a set form in publique , and in private , may by accident , through the fault of the speaker , hearer , or user , abate the fervency of spirit in solitary or joynt prayers ; yet it is not so necessarily , or of it self , and therefore not unlawful , nor quenching the spirit of prayer , nor a rendring useless the donation of the spirit , as a spirit of prayer , unto the children of god , as this author speaks in his d. offer : but in some cases a stinted form is helpful , both to the understanding , memory , affections , utterance in prayer , both publique and private , as many holy saints have found by experience . to the d. i say , that the precept to timothy , of stirring up the gift of god , which was in him , by the putting on of pauls hands , tim. . . cannot be understood , of the ability to express himself in extemporary prayer ; but of his ability to preach the gospel , as tim. . . is meant ; which he is encouraged to by the next words , v. . for , god hath not given us the spirit of fear , but of power , of love , and of a sound mind ; or , as some read , of castigation , or reducing others to s●briety . however , it is impertinent to the purpose of the author here , it being not meant of exciting the gift of expression in prayer with others ; and yet , if it were , he that reads a liturgy , may stirr up the gift of expression at another time , if he cannot when he reads . as for the impr●ving of the talents , matth. . . . luke . . . it is the duty of every christian , and not only of ministers ; and if it be meant , of using abilities in joynt-prayer , every christian must , as he is able , utter himself in prayer , contrary to cor. . , . i conceive , by comparing matth. . , . with matth , . , . mark . , ▪ that the talent which is given to each , is the knowledge , or teaching of the word of god , or the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven , which each person is to improve , by bringing forth the fruits of it , matth . . or if it be meant of the ministers gift , it is to be understood of his ability to preach the gospel , and the improving it , by converting others to faith and obedience ; not of so mean a thing , as an ability of conceiving and uttering forms of prayer without book . as for the th . thing offered , the lawfulness of the saints praying in a form , is neither because they have not the spirit ; nor , that having the spirit , he is not a sufficient help to them in their approaches to god : but because in such praying , neither is any thing done forbidden by god , nor any thing omitted thereby , which god requires for the performing the duty of prayer . the spirit , i grant , is sufficient to help in our approaches to god , and doth help , rom . . but that it is done by enabling , by immediate inspiration , to utter matter of prayer , for the benefit of others , is not meant in those places . and indeed , such a mistake hath filled some with high conceit of themselves , and others with admiration of such , to their mutual perditions : whereas this is but a common gift , or rather an acquired ability ▪ often used with cunning to deceive others , of which there are many footsteps in the affected expressions , & otherwise , which shew , their p●aying is not from the spirit of god , but their own spirit ▪ but of the impertinency of this text i have spoken before , in answer to ch . . sect . . it follows , sect . the forms of prayer imposed , are not made necessary essential parts of wo●ship . answ. the 〈◊〉 p●oposition , m●ant of making it doctrinally necessa●y , by vertue of gods appointment , so as that the omission of it at any time , when the worship is performed , should be sin ; or using any other form , should make it not gods worship , or not acceptable to him ; might be granted : but being understood , of making a thing the condition of an action , by vertue of the authority of governours , so , as that at some time and place , it is not to be done without it , by persons that are their subject● , under a civil penalty , the major is denied : in which sense , the use of the liturgy is imposed , which doth not make it any other than a circumstance of divine worship , not such an adjunct as is a necessary part thereof . this author granted before here , sect . . circumstances in the worsh●p of christ , atttending religious actions , as actions ; without assignment of time and place , no action to be managed by a community , can be orderly performed by them . therefore , if the governours assign a time and place , undetermined by god , it is that which they may do lawfully , and not requiring them as necessary by vertue of gods institution ; nor of all but only of their own subjects , they are made but circumstances , not necessary parts of divine worship . so , if for avoiding of inconvenience , publique praying be forbidden in the night , and in some places ; and it be commanded to be done at such hours of the day , in such a place : these hours and place are made no other than circumstances of the religious action , no religion is placed in them , ●hey are not made parts of worship , but adjuncts alterable as it may stand with conveniency . there is the same reason of imposing a liturgy for uniformity , to prevent dissonancy , or some other inconvenience , which may be incident to some persons , as of requiring prayers without it . if neither be determinatively instituted by christ , but commanded for conveniency , they both remain circumstances , ●ot necessary parts of divine worship , notwithstanding the imposition by governours . sacrificing on the altar , at the tabernacle and temple , was a part of the worship , because commanded by god ; and so would the liturgy be , if it were commanded as that was : but that the liturgy is not so , it appears from the words of the preface to it the particular forms of divine worship , and th● rites appointed to be vsed therein , being things in their own natu●e indifferent and alterable , and so acknowledged ; it is but r●asonable , that upon weighty and important considerations , according to the 〈◊〉 exigency of times and occasions , such changes and alterations should be made therein , as to th●se that are in place of authority , should from time to time seem either necessary or expedient . nor do i think it true , that any considerable minister of england , would affirm the common-prayer book to be an essential part of worship , or make it such , as this author imputes to them ; nor in use of it , is it alwayes so observed , but that it gives place to preaching , to reading briefs for collections , and some other occasions ; and yet , if they did so strictly observe it , this doth not prove , they esteem it a necessary essential part of worship , by vertue of gods command : but that they conceive they ought to obey their governours laws , not judging others , who use it not . but whatever be the judgement or practice of the present ministers , yet the words of the preface ( which are more to be regarded , than any particular ministers opinion , whereof some , it s confess'd , have too much magnified it ) do shew , that the imposition makes it not such as this author chargeth on them . and this is enough to acquit the use of it from idolatry , even in this authors own sense , sith they do not place the worship of god in the form , but in the kind of worship commanded by god ; and so the minor of his argument is denied . for though the form of the common-prayer book be not prescribed , yet the way of worship therein , that is , prayer , praises , the lords supper , are worship pre●cribed by god. if the author mean , by way of wor-ship , the forms and modes , the way of worship by preachers conceived or extemporary prayers ▪ this authors form of preaching , and other worship , is not prescribed by god ; and the separatists are idolaters , as well as the ministers of england ; and so his argument is retorted as before ▪ he goes on thus , sect. . acting in the holy things of god , by an office-power and modes of idolaters , may be without idolatry . to which we add . argument . those who act in the holy things of god , by vertue of an office-power received from idolaters ; and offer up to him a worship meerly of humane composition , once abused to idolatry , with the modes and rites of idolaters , are guilty of the sin of idolatry : but the present ministers of england , act in the holy things of god , by vertue of an office-power received from idolaters , and offer up to him a worship meerly of humane composition , o●c● abus●d to idolatry , with the modes and rites of idolaters . therefore . the major ( or first proposition ) carrying a brightness along with it , sufficient to lead any one into the belief of the truth thereof , one would think may be taken for granted . two things are asserted therein , . that such as act in the holy things of god , by vertue of an office-power received from idolaters , are themselves such at least in respect of that their office-power so received by them ) that jeroboams priests were all of them idolaters , we suppose will not be denied : supposing some or more to act in the worship of god , by vertue of an office-power received from them , were these to be accounted in that respect idolaters ? it seemeth so : nor can there be the least pretence of reason to the contrary : certainly such as act by vertue of authority committed to them , in matters civil , from rebels , are equally guilty of rebellion , as those from whom they derive that their authority . the case is here the same . . that such as offer up to god a worship meerly of humane composition , once abused to idolatry , with the modes and rites of idolaters , are idolaters : if these be not such , i must profess , i know not who are . that there are few , or none , that worship the creature terminative , will not be denied , the most of idolaters in the world are such , upon the account of their worshipping the true god through mediums of their own d●vising , with rites and modes that never entred into the heart of god to prescribe . to assert , that any should symbolize with idolaters herein ( who are solely upon this foot of account such ) and not be guilty of the sin of idolatry , is absurd and irrational . the major proposition then ( as was said ) may be taken for granted . answ. not so , without better proof , and thus understood , that they still abuse it to idolatry ; and , that the modes and rites be of themselves idolatrous : without these limitations , the major is denied . those that were ordained priests by papists , and used the common-prayer book after , in the dayes of edward the th . were not idolaters : though this author will not acquit latimer , cranmer , ridley , hooper , and others , from idolatry then , yet i shall boldly do it : and to what this author saith , i reply , that the office-power , no , not though it were from idolaters , for idolatrous purposes , doth not make persons actually idolaters , till they do actually exhibit divine worship to a creature . suppose a person be ordained a priest , to offer sacrifice propitiatory for the quick and dead in the mass ; yet if he ●epent thereof , and never do adore the breaden-god he is not an idolater : yea , suppose he act in baptizing , preaching , marrying , burying according to the rituals of the romanists , by vertue of his ordination , as a priest ; or , as this author speaks , his office-power , without exhibiting any divine worship to a creature ( which in some of these may be ) yet is he not thereby an idolater . the reason whereof is manifest , because he is not an idolater , to whom the definition of idolatry ag●ees not . and this is the reason why , if jerob●ams ●riests , though consecrated for the worship of idols , did not worship them , they were not to be accounted idolaters : nor are those that act by vertue of authority committed to them , in matters civil , from rebels , equally guilty of rebellion , as th●se from whom they derive that their authority , unless they act rebelliously ; if they act for the restitution of their p●ince , the publique peace , they are accounted good subjects , and not rebels , though at first they derived their authority from rebels . nor doth the worshipping of god by a form meerly of humane composition , make idolaters , though it have been abused to idolatry , with the rites and m●des of idolaters , unless the●e be idolatry in the form , and the rites and modes be idolatrous in their use : because , notwithstanding this , no divine worship may be given to a creature . so , though the form of baptism in the roman church ▪ were mee●ly of humane composition , used with crossings , cream , oyl , spittle , if these rites were used , though by them abused to idolatry , not as they do , so as to give divine worship to a creature , the users , in this manner , however guilty of will-worship or superstition , yet would not be justly chargeable with idolatry ; no , not though they should in ●ome sort symbol●ze with idolaters , that is , be assimilated to them , or in some sort comply with them . much less is it true , that they are idolaters , who use that which is of di●ine appointment , to the right use , because idolaters a●u●ed it to idolatry : he that should use the lords prayer , or the psalms , to worship god with them should not be an idolater , because witches have invocated the devil , by the lords prayer , or the papists the virgin ma●y , by the words of the p●alms in bonaventures psalter . that which he saith here , that few or none worship the creature terminative , he doth revoke the next page save one , finding bellarmines ass●rtion , l. de imag. c. . that the images thems●lves ●erminate the veneration given them , as they are in themselves considered , and not only as supplying the 〈…〉 that which they represent . but had not this passage p●oved it , the idolatry of the papists , in worshipping the h●st , invocating angels , saints , the worship of the devil by americans , the sun and moon of old , would prove , that most of ●dolaters do worship the creature terminative . from that which is said , i inferr , that his maj●r may be denied wi●hout 〈◊〉 or irrationali●y . but i pass to his minor , of which he sai●h thus , sect. . the english ministers opp●s● p●pish idolatry , as other protestants . whether this be true of the pr●s●nt ministers of england , is next to be considered , of which briefly . . that the romish church ( so called ) are idolaters ; their wo●ship , in the complex thereof , id●la●ry , will not ( we suppose ) be denied by any that call thems●lves p●otestants ; the most learned of whom have asserted an● 〈…〉 : and then allegeth th●●● hymns , o felix pue●pera ▪ o crux spes unica : bo●a●scius the j●suite , that is , 〈◊〉 lib. amphith . honor. c. ult . ad divam hallensem & 〈◊〉 j●sum , hae●eo lac inter medita●s , interque cruo●em , &c. aqu. sum parte . q . bell. de imag. c. . f●ar● seus de mend●za in viridatio utriusque eruditionis , lib. . p●o● . ▪ the vsual ascription in bellarmine , baronius , laus deo virginique matri mariae . answ. in which i agree with him , that the papists are guilty of most horrid idolatry : and , could he shew any such things in the common-p●aye● bo●k , or the service of the ministers of the church of england , i should agree to his separation . but when no such thing is to be found in the liturgy or service of the present ministe●s of england : and , when he knows the h●mily of the peril ●f idolatry , and the writings of the lea●ned bishops and d●v●nes of the church of england , are as much against ●h●ir idolatry as other protestants , to insinuate into the peoples minds , as if the present ministers of england did symbolize with these idolaters , of whose idolatry they shew so much detestation , is a most viperous calumniation , and most unworthy of a christian. but he goes on thus : sect. . the ministers of england act not by vertue of an office-power from idolaters . . that the present ministers of england act by vertue of an office-power from this combination and assembly of idolaters , they themselves will not deny : succession from hence being one of the best pleas they have for the justification of their ministry : ( which when they have proved , that ever the lord jesus did intrust an assembly of the greatest murderers , adulterers , and idolaters in the world , with any power , for the sending forth officers , to act in the holy things of god , to , and for the church his spouse , will be admitted ; but that they shall never be able to do ) so hugely importunate are some of them herein , that they are not ashamed to ask us , vvhy ordination may not be received from the church ( so called ) of rome , as well as the scripture ? to which we shall only say , that when it is proved , that we received the scripture from that apostate church , by vertue of any authority thereof , as such , somewhat of moment may be admitted in that enquiry , but this will never be done . t is true , the bible was kept among the people , in those parts , where the pope prevaileth ; yet followeth it not from hence , that we received it from their authority , as ordination is received : if we did , why did we not keep it , as delivered from them to us , in the vulgar latine ? so that of these things there is not the same reason . it will not then be denied , but the present ministers of england , act in the holy things of god , by vertue of an office power received by succession from the church of rome , and so from idolaters ( that church being eminently so , as hath been proved . ) answ. this objection , though it be but a slight thing , and of no real force , to nullifie or invalidate the calling of the present ministers ; yet , because the well-affected protestants are zealous against popery , as having learned the pope to be antichrist , and that terrible threanings are , in the revelation , against any communion with any thing that is suggested to them by those , to whom they adhere , to come from rome , or the pope , as being antichristian , it is needful , that this thing should be cleared ▪ for rectifying the mistakes of people , that their unadvised zeal against some things as popish , which are not , may not occasion unnecessary schism , and such other evils , into which persons , perhaps otherwise of honest hearts , cast themselves to their ruine . it is known to those that study controversies between protestants and papists , that this hath been one grand objection of the papists against the reformed churches , that their ministers are not rightly ordained , and therefore they have no succession ; which by bellarmine , in his book de notis ecclesiae , c. . is made a note of the church ; and therefore they are not a true church , but schismatical . the answers given to this objection , are , . for the truth of the reformed churches , the succession in them of true doctrine , is sufficient to demonstrate them true churches , as i have asserted in my romanism discussed , against the manuel of h. t. art. . . that ministers may be sent of god , who teach the doctrine of god , though they have not ordination according to church-canons ▪ as was the case at the first beginning of the reformation ; in which there was something extraordinary , by reason of the long tyranny of popes , and the great corruptions in the latine churches . . that their ministers were at first ordained by the popish bishops ; and though they did after renounce the offering sacrifice for quick and dead , yet even by the papists own canons , and resolutions of their casuists , their power to administer the word and sacraments , according to the word of god , continued still . . that those who had been thus ordained , had power to ordain others , for which the french , and other protestants of the presbyterial government , allege , that presbyters may ordain , even by the confession of the romanists ; and that bishops , though they be hereticks in their account , yet they lose not the power of ordaining , no , not when degraded ; of which more may be seen in rivet . sum . controv. tract . . q. . alsted . suppl . ad chamier . panstrat . de memb . eccl. milit c. . ames . bellar. enerv. tom . . l. . de clericis , c. sect . . and many more , who have still pleaded , that , notwithstanding the impurity of the church of rome , yet the calling , which luther , zuinglius , and others had from popish bishops , was sufficient , without any other ordination , for an ordinary calling to the office of a minister ; and that those , who have succeeded them , have been true pastours in their churches . the english protestants , who have had bishops above presbyters , have advantage above other protestants , to plead for the regularity of the ordination of their ministers , because they have been ordained by bishops , and those bishops consecrated by other bishops , according to the ●anons of the ancients , in a succession continued from bishops acknowledged by the papists themselves . to evacuate this plea , saith dr. prideaux , orat. . de vocatione ministrorum : the papists would fain find a defect in the succession of the english b●sh●ps from the preceding b●shops , and in the solemnity of their consecration : and being beaten off from the denial of cranmers consecration ▪ by the producing of the popes acknowledging of him arch-bishop , and the register of his consecration , as also of other bishops in king edwards dayes : after , christophorus à sacr●b●sco , or father halywood of dublin in ireland , anthony champney , and james wadsworth say , that arch bishop parker , bishop jewel , and those others , which were made bishops in the beginning of q. elizabeth , though the●e were an attempt of their consecration at a tavern , at the nags-head in cheapside , yet could not they procure an old catholick bishop to joyn with them , and therefo●e their consecration was disappointed . to shew the falshood of this fable , and to make evident the compleat solemnity of pa●kers , and others consecration ; and the truth of the ordination of the english ministers , even by the canons of the papists , bishop b●del in his answer to wadsworth , ch . . and mr. francis mason in his vindication of the english ministry , have fully proved the solemnity of the consecration , out of the a●ch-bishops begister , to have been ●ight , and the succession to have been legitimate , even according to the canon law ; and the ministers ordination to have been good , though not ordained sacrificing priests for quick and dead , against the exceptions of bellarmine , 〈◊〉 , and such other of the papists ' as have denied protestant ministers true pastours , and their churches true churches . it is not unlikely , that some of the prela●ical party , have vented in writings and conference , such expressions , as carry a shew of their disclaiming the churches which have not bishops , and extolling the popish churches government , and avouching their ordination from rome ; which hath caused a great ave●seness in many zealous persons from bishops , and the conforming ministers ; and is taken hold of by this author , and other promoters of separation , as an engine sutable to that end . but as those learned men , bedel , mason , prideaux , and others , have pleaded the succession of bishops from the popish bishops , and the ordination of ministers by them , there is no cause given of that out-cry , that is made of the bishops antichristianism , declining to popery , or of separation , for that reason : the presby●erian churches making the like plea for themselves , that the first reformers had ordinary calling , even according to the papists own canons ; and the episcopal divines pleading only the same thing more fully . yet it is not true , which this author saith , that either the one or other make the succession from popish bish●ps , one of the best pleas they have for the just●fication of their minist●y : for , though they plead this succession against the clamorous and violent actings of the popish party , which petrus molinaeus , in his d. epistle to bishop andrews , mentions to have been in france , by arnola the jesuite ; and the writings of champney , wadsworth , and others , shew to have been in england : yet they have justified their ministry without it , as may be seen in amos , als●ed , b●del , and others . and for the present ministers of england , i conceive they will deny , that they act by vertue of an office-power from the combination and assembly of idolaters in the church of rome ; their office-power being not such as priests are ordained to in the church of rome , to offer sacrifice propitiatory for quick and dead , but to preach the gospel , administer sacraments , and discipline , according to christs institution : and in the solemnity of their ordination , the rom●sts rites being relinquished by the ordainers , who are not a combination or assembly of idolaters , but professors of the true faith , and haters of popish idolatry , though some succession of their predecessors from idolaters be alleged to stop the mouths of papists , who pervert their proselytes , by impu●ation of novelty to the reformed churches , and their ministers , rather than by proving their doctrine out of scripture . as for that which is ob●ected , that christ would never entrust such , to send forth officers , to act in the holy things of god , for his church , it is without reason objected , sith many of them might be , and in charity we are to conceive , were the servants of god , who abode in the communion of the roman church . dr. ames himself , in his animadversions on the remonstrants scripta synodalia , artic. . c. . saith , we believe there were , and yet are many , who have not so farr separated themselves from the papists , but that they are polluted with their manifold idolatry , who yet have their part in the kingdom of god. even in the dayes of king henry the th . and q mary , all the bishops were not like gardiner , bonner , and such as were inhumane persecutors . why christ should not entrust cranmer , tonstall , and such like , to send forth officers , to act in the holy things of god , as well as judas to be an apostle , i find not cause . the baptism received in the church of rome , the brownists in their apology , p. . acknowledge to be so farr valid , as not to need rebaptization ; and why not then the ordination by their bishops ? bishops and ministers , though they be evil men , and unduly get into power ; yet , as it is with other officers , their actings are valid : as caiaphas , ananias , and such like persons , who by bribes unjustly and irregularly usurped the high-priests office ; yet their sentence and ministration were not therefore disannulled . he who said , we received the bible from the church of rome , it is not likely meant it to have been received by vertue of their authority , but their ministry , preachers having been sent by the pope , to instruct the saxons in the faith : but whatever was meant by that speech , this we may safely say , that if the office-power of the present ministers had been ( as it is not ) received by succession from the church of rome , and so from idolaters ; yet being no other office-power , than what hath been instituted by christ , it no more proves the present ministers idolaters , than the receiving of baptism , or the scriptures , by the ministry of men in that church . it is further added , sect. . the common-prayer book worship was not abused to idolatry . . nor can it be denied , but they offer up to god , a vvorship meerly of humane composition ( as the common-prayer book worship hath been proved to be ) once abused to idolatry , with the m●●es ●nd rites of idolaters . that the common●prayer book worship , is a worship , that was once abused to idolatry , being the worship of that church , whose worship ( at least in the complex thereof ) is so , cannot with the least pretence of reason be denied . that the whole of it , is derived from , and taken out of the popes portuis , as are the common-prayers out of the breviary : the administration of the sacraments , burial , matrimony , visitation of the sick , out of the ritual , or book of rites : the consecration of the lords supper , collects , epistles , gospels , out of the mass book : the ordination of arch-bishops , bishops , and priests , out of the roman pontifical , hath been a●●erted and proved by many . vvhich might be evidenced ( if needful ) beyond exception ; not only by comparing the one with the other , but also from the offer was made by pope pius the th . and gregory the th . to q. elizabeth , to confirm the english liturgy , which , did it not symbolize with the service of the church of rome , they would not have done . yea , when the said queen was interdicted by the popes bull , secretary walsingham procures two intelligencers from the pope , who seeing the service of london and canterbury in the pomp thereof , wonder , that their lord , the pope , should be so unadvised , as to interdict a prince , whose service and ceremonies did so symbolize with his own : vvhen they come to rome , they satisfie the pope , that they saw no service , ceremonies , or orders in england , but might very well serve in rome , upon which the bull was recalled . not to mention what we have already minded , viz. the testimomy of king edward the th . and his council ; witnessing the english service to be the same , and no other but the old , the self-same words in english , that were in latine ( which was the worship of england and rome in queen maries dayes ) it is evident , that the present minsters of england , offer up a worship to god , once abused to idolatry . that they do this , with the rites , ceremonies , and modes of idolaters , ( viz. such as are in use in that idolatrous church of rome ) needs not many words to demonstrate : what else is the priests change of voice , posture and place of worship enjoyned them ? not to mention their holy vestments , bowings , cringings , candles , altars , &c. all which , as it s known , owe their original unto the appointments thereof . in the margin , maccovius loc . com . append . de adiaph . p. . saith , non licet mutuari , aut retinere res aus ritus sacros idololatrarum sive ethnicorum sife pontificiorum , &c. etsi in se res fuerint adiaphorae quia vitandam esse omnem consormitatem cum idololatris docemur . lev. . . . and . . deut. ▪ ▪ it remaineth , that the present m●nisters of england , acting in the holy things of god , by vertue of an office-power received from idolaters ; and offering up to him a worship meerly of humane composition , once abused to idolatry , with the rites and modes of idolaters , are deeply guilty of the sin of idolatry . answ. that the common-prayer book worship , is a worship meerly of humane composition , however the form of words be , is denied , and not proved by this author , whose mistakes in confounding them are before shewed . nor is the worship of the common-prayer book proved to have been abus●d to idolatry , because the fo●ms of words were taken out of the popish service books , any more , than that the scriptures or creed , found in them , were abused to idolatry , because thence taken : the worship being agreeable to gods word , cannot be abused to idolatry . nor doth the form of words used in the mass-book or b●eviary , which is otherwise holy and ●ight , if it had never been in those books , cease to be holy and right , when the idolatrous forms are left out , any more , than gold found in a dunghill , remains dung , and ceaseth to be gold , when the filth is washed away from it . to that of the common-prayer book being taken out of the popes portuis , and king edwards words , answer is made in the answer to the d. chapter , sect . . the offer of the pope , and the report of his intelligencers , p●oves , that the pope had nothing to except against the common-prayer book , or the service of the church of england ; but not , that they are every way the same with that which is used in the church of rome . concerning its being taken out of the popes portuis , at least for the greatest piece , arch-bishop whitgift , in his a●swer to the first admonition , p. . said long agoe , it maketh no matter of whom it was invented , in what book it is contained , so that it be good and profitable , and cons●nant to gods word . well saith ambrose , omne verum à quocunque dicitur , à spiritu sancto , all truth , of whomsoever it is spoken , is of the holy ghost . as for the book of ordination , he an●wers , the words of the second admonition , p. . thus ▪ it is most false and untrue , that the book of ordering ministers and d●acons , &c. now used , is word for word drawn out of the popes pontifical , being almost in no point correspondent to the same ; as y●u might have seen , if you had compared them t●gether : but ignorance and rashness drives you into many errours . as for the rites , and modes , and ceremonies objected , those , which are in the church of rome idolatrous , are not observed , or used by the ministers , who minister according to the common-prayer book , to whom conformity with the popish priests therein is injuriously imputed ; and they are so farr from being found deeply guilty of the sin of idolatry , that the very a●guings of this author rather acquit them , than convince them . as for the words of maccov●us , they are not right ; we may retain the goods used to idol●try and apply them to holy uses , though they have been abused by idolaters , yea , and abused to idolatry , as the temples , bells , tables , which have been abused to the idolatry of the mass , as is largely proved by mr. page● , in his arrow against the separation of the brown●sts , in answer to mr ▪ ainsworth , ch . . nor is it p●oved by maccovius ▪ out of the texts alleged here , that the sacred rites of idolaters , though they be things in themselves indifferent , are not to be retained ; but that all conformity with idolaters is to be avoided . for none of the texts speak of things in themselves indifferent ; turning unto idols , and making to themselves molten gods , forbidden levit. . . being gross idolatry : the rounding the corners of their heads , marring the corners of their beards , v. . making baldness upon their head , shaving off the corner of their beard , cutting their flesh , levit. . . making baldness bettween their eyes for the dead , being heathenish customes , which were idolatrous ; as ainsworth , annot. on levit. . . such as those , kings . . or as salmasius in his book of long hair ; the rounding of the corners of their h●ads , to have been in honour of the moon : or shewing heathenish sorrow for the dead ; all sinful in themselves , and therefore not indifferent . but there is yet one more charge behind . sect. . kneeling in receiving the sacramental elements , is not idolatry . argument . adoration in , by , or before a creature respecti●è , or with relation to the creature , is idolatry ; such as so adore or w●●ship g●d , are idolaters : but the present ministers of england , do adore or worship god , in , by , or before a creature respective , or with relation to the creature : therefore . the major ( or first proposition ) being generally owned by protestants , it being the very same maxim they make use of , and stop the mouth of the papists with , in the point of adoring god mediately by the creature , we shall not stand upon the proof of it : none that know what they say , will deny it . the minor proposition ( viz. that the present ministers of england do adore or worship god , in , by , or before the creature respectivè , or with relation to the creature ) will receive a quick dispatch : not to mention their bowing and cringing at the altar : that they kneel at receiving of the sacrament , is known : that they , with their communicants , should do so , is enjoyned by their church : that their so d●ing , is an adoration , or worshipping of god before the creature respectivè , or with relation to the creature , is too manifest to admit of a denial : nothing being more certain , than that the elements are the objectum à quo , or the motive of their kneeling , which if they were not there , they would not do . and in the margin . didoclavius p. . saith , genus●ectere non modò excludit ritus institutionis , sed etiam praeceptum secundum de vitanda idololatria multis modis violat . vvhich maccovius assents to , loc . com . p. . answ. whether this authors antagonists know what they say , this author seems not a fit judge , unless either he knew better what himself saith , or could better clear his meaning than he doth , that his readers might know what he saith . in this argument , he doth accuse the present mnisters of england , and their communicants of idolatry , in kneeling at the receiving of the bread and wine in the sacrament of the lords supper ; and yet , ch . . p. . he had said . kneeling at the lords supper , though we do not , some would say , smells very strong of the popish leaven , and is but one pegg b●neath the adoration of their breaden-god . here he exp●esly makes that idolatry undeniable , as being adoration or w●●ship of god in , by , or before the creature , to wit , the element● respectivè , or with relation to the creature , as objectum significativè a quo , or the motive of their kneeling ; which if it were not , they would not do . so that one while , he will not say , it sm●lls strongly of the popish leaven , nor that it is but one pegg beneath the adoration of their breaden-god ; and if so ( did he know what he saith ) he acquits it from idolatry , which at another time he imputes to it . to which might be added . that , whereas in the beginning of this very chapter , he ●eckons up as many sorts of idolatry , as either he could , or thought fit at least for his design , of making the present ministers of england idolaters ; and indeed , more than he should : yet this sort of idolatry , of worshipping and adoring god ▪ in , by , or before a creature respectivè , or wi●● relation to the creature , as the objectum significativè à qua , or the motive of the adoration , or worship of god ▪ is no● mentioned there by him ; nor is this kneeling any of them . for neither is the kneeling at the sacrament , the worsh●p ●f the creature terminatively : nor before it , as the medium or representative of god : nor the ascription of the godhead , or 〈◊〉 properties , to any creature : nor the worshipping of god in any other way , than what he hath prescribed ; for it is kneeling in prayer , or thanksgiving , to god , which he hath appointed : nor is it the oblation of worship or service to god , that hath ben offered up to idols , for which there is no prescription in the scripture . for , if it be such , it is that which was done to the breaden-god : but that he will not say it is ; for , ch . . p. . he would not say , it smells very strong of the popish leaven , and is but one pegg beneath the adoration of their breaden god ; therefore he makes it more than one pegg beneath it ▪ and so beneath that oblation or service , that hath been offered up to idols . besides , as i have before said , the papists themselves are not enjoyned to adore the bread , at the putting into their mouths , but at the elevation of the host ; i● not consisting with their principles , to worship that which is not above them : nor is it the most refined idolatry , as he speaks , when the heart goes forth in desires after any thing , beyond what is limited by the lord ; or trusts and relyes on any creature , besides god : for this kneeling , if it be idolatry , is outward , not inward ; of the members , not of the 〈◊〉 ; and therefore , it may be more truly charged on 〈◊〉 author , that he knew not what he said , when he accused ministers and people of idolatry , for receiving the bread and wine at the lords supper kneeling , though he had said enough before to acquit them from it . and , may he not be said , not to know what he said , who writes so ambiguously , indistinctly , and confusedly , as that his reader cannot well discern his meaning ? for , whereas worshipping god in , by , or before a creature respectivè , or with relation to the creature , may be understood before it respectivè , or with relation to it , as the terminus , or object to which i● is directed ; as worshipping before , luke . . is wo●shipping of satan , matth. . . and the relation to the creature , may be , as conceiving god included in it , as in the consecrated host ; or represented by it , as by the golden cal● , or a crucifix , or as pertaining to god , being consecrated to him , as g●deons ephod , or popish reliques of saints , or hallowed grains ; or the like , without gods institution ; in these , and such like relations , the adoration being directed to the creatures , whether as the only object to which , or the intermediate object ; whether properly , or improperly ; of it self , or by accident ; if this author had distinctly set down , that he meant his major in one or more of these respects , his readers would have known what he had said , and would have granted his m●jor , and denied his minor . but he thought it best to hide his major in ambiguous speech , and to express himself more intelligibly in his instance in the minor , that kneeling is adoration o● worshipping of god before the crea●ure respectivè , or with relation to the creature , as the objectum significativè à quo , or the motive of the kneeling . but in this sense i deny his major ; and that he may not think me bereft of my wits , but that i know what i say , i give him this reason of my denial , i find the holy ghost inviting the jews to worship at gods footstool , his holy hill , psal . . ▪ which were creatures ; and there they were to bow down to god , in , by , or before these creatures respectivè , or with relation to them , as the objectum significativè à quo , that is , that thing which was an object signifying gods presence there , and the motive of their bowing down to god ; which , if they had not been there , that is , the ark ▪ temple , altar , they would not have done ; and there was no idolatry therein . and to stop the evasion , that it was so , when god appointed it , though this would not avoid the instance , the bread and wine being of gods appointment , and the use of them in the sacrament of the lords supper , as well as the altar , ark , temple , were , they were instituted to be memorative signs of christs body and blood , communicated to the receivers by faith ; yet i find that adoration or worshipping of god before the creature respectivè ▪ or with relation to it , as the objectum significativè à quo , and the motive of the adoration , hath been performed occasionally without institution , and yet no idolatry committed . when the is●aelites at mount carmel , kings . . saw the fire of the lord fall , and consume the burnt offering , and the wood , and the stones , and the dust , and lick up the water that was in the trench , they fell on their faces , and they said , the lord he is god , the lord he is the god. here was adoration of god before the creature respectivè , or with relation to it , as the objectum significativè à quo , signifying the lord to be god ; and as the motive of that adoration , which , if it had not been there , they would not have done it ; and yet no idolatry committed . another instance is chron. . when all the children of israel saw how the fire came down , and the glory of the lord upon the house , they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement , and worshipped and praised the lord , saying , for he is good , for his mercy endureth for ever . here was adoration and worshipping god , in , by , or before a creature , not having special institution , abiding in their sight , as the objectum significativè à quo , or the motive of their adoration , and worship of the lord , and yet no idolatry . i confess , that when the worship is before it , so as it is directed to it , as upon the sight of the bread , or a crucifix , the host , or a crucifix is worshipped , whether terminatively , or as the representative of another , it is idolatry : as if job , when he had seen the sun when it shined , or the moon walking in brightness , his heart had been secretly enticed , and his mouth had kissed his hand , as it is job . , . it had been idolatry : for then the sun had been not only obj●ctum à quo , the motive or occasion , but also objectum ad quod , or the terminus ad quem , to which it had been directed . but if he had only taken occasion , upon the sight of the sun , to worship god , as david did , psal. . . magnifie or worship god the creator , it had been no idolatry , though the moon or sun were the objectum à quo significativè , or the sight 〈◊〉 it , the motive to it . till divine worship be given to a creature , it is not idolatry ; although in the kind or means of worship , there may be will-worship ; and in the opinion of those , that count their act , or the object to be holy , when it is not , there may be superstition of the mind ; and in the use of such things , or forbearing their use , superstition in the members . that which this author saith of his major proposition , as generally owned by protestants , i do not believe it to be true , understanding it as he doth , of relation only to the creature , as objectum significativè à quo , or the motive of the adoration , and not the object to which it is directed . as for this minor , it may be denied , even in his own sense ; for the adoring of god , though it be at the receiving the elements , yet the elements are not objectum significative à quo , or the motive of their kneeling , according to the common-prayer book , which saith , that the order in the office , for the administration of the lords supper , that the communicants should receive it kneeling , is well meant , for a signification of our humble and grateful acknowledgement of the benefits of christ , therein given to all worthy receivers ; and for the avoiding of such profanation and disorder in the holy communion , as might otherwise ensue : that thereby no adoration is intended , or ought to be done , either unto the sacramental bread and wine , there bodily received , or unto any corporal presence of christs natural flesh and blood : which intimate , that the elements are not the objectum significativè à quo , or the motive of their kneeling ; but the benefits of christ in the lords supper , given to all worthy receivers : and that , not the sight of bread or wine , ( which is not seen till the cup be in their hand ) but the remembrance of christs death , and the remission of sins by his blood , by saith , are the motive to kneel to god , with prayer and thanksgiving to him , without any honour of the bread and wine , though received , eaten and drunk , to remember christs death , as the procuring cause of those benefits . as for his reason , if the elements were not there , they would not kneel ; therefore they are the objectum significativè à quo , or the motive of their kneeling ; partly the antecedent is not true , for they kneel before they receive the elements brought to them , and after they have eaten and drunk , while they are in the meditation of christs death , and the benefits by it , using holy ejaculation in prayer and thanksgiving to god ; partly the consequence may be denied : for , though they would not kneel , were not the elements there , yet this is not sufficient to prove their presence the motive of kneeling , any more , than the presence and speech of the m●nister , who delivers them with prayer and exhortation , to whom yet this author makes not the kneeling to have relation . and indeed , it is not the presence of the elements , when they are received , that is , while they are in the ministers hand , or their own , or in their mouths , which is the objectum significativè à quo ; but the actions with the elements , at the consecration by the minister , which signifie christs death : and the use by themselves in eating and drinking , whereby are signified their nourishment by christ unto life eternal , which are the motive to that gratitude and trust in christ , which in kneeling they exercise by prayer . as for the words of didoclavius , with maccovius his assent , they are the words of an adversary to the ministers in this cause , and therefore not fit to be alleged as a proof in this matter : nor , if they were true , would they prove kneeling to be idolatry , but to be some way against the second commandement for avoiding idolatry . we might more justly , and more to the purpose , allege the words of dr. ames , in his triplication to dr. burges his rejoynder , ch . . sect . . p. . there is no non-conformist , which refuseth to kneel unto christ , in the celebration of the lords supper : and the conformists deny , they require kneeling to any other than god , and the lord jesus christ. as for their bowing and cringing at the altar , it concerns them to speak for themselves , who use it ; neither do all the conformists use it , no not in cathedrals ▪ if my information be right ; nor is there any established law for it ; and those that use it , do avouch they do it , not to any other than god , and therefore are not to be charged with idolatry , whatever other fault they are chargeable with , by reason of it . it follows sect. . the crimination of the ministers , as idolaters , is not excusable . object . to what hath been hitherto offered in this matter , if it be said , that the charging the present ministers of england with idolatry , is exceeding harsh , and that which is an argument of a very unchristian and censorious spirit : though this makes nothing to the enervating of what hath been offered , yet we answer , . that many words of christ himself were accounted hard sayings , and not to be born ; and that by such hearers , as were once his admirers , and did with seeming great affection attend upon his ministry . that such poor worms as we should be recharged herewith , it is no great marvel , it is enough for the disciple to be as his master . ly . we have in this matter said nothing , but what is in thesi over and over asserted by most or all protestant writers upon the second commandement : who assert fully , that the worshipping god in a way not prescribed by him , is idolatry , such as do so , are idolaters : with our application hereof unto the present ministers of england , if they are guilty ( as that they are , hath been abundantly demonstrated ) why should any be offended ? to speak truth , when our silence would be prejudicial to the souls of our brethren , me-thinks should not be accounted unchristian or censorious . in the margin are these words , calvin , perkins , ames , macc●vius , altingius , wendeline , paraeus , explicat . cate. p. . q. . p. . saith , quid postulat secundum praeceptum ? res. ne deum ullâ imagine , aut figurâ exprimamus , neve nullâ ratione eum colamus , quàm qua se in suo verbo coli praecepit , sam. . . deut. . mat. . and afterwards he addeth , huic secundo praecepto contraria sunt ea , quae vero cultui divino adversantur . . idololatria , quae est culius numinis fictitius , aut superstitiosus . sunt autem idololatriae du● species , praecipuae : una crassior , cum fictitium numen colitur — haec species prohibetur in primo praecepto , & aliquâ ex parte , in tertio : altera est subtilior , cum verus deus coli fingitur , sed erratur in genere culius , hoc est , cum vero deo culius fingitur praestari , aliquo opere , quod ipse non praecepit : haec species idololatriae , hoc praecepto propriè damnatur , & nominatur 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , sive superstitio . and pag . qui peccant contra secundum praeceptum , peccant & contra primum , quia qui deum aliter colunt , atque vult coli , illi fingunt deum aliter affectum , atque est , hoc est , alium deum : ita non deum , sed cerebri sui commentum , quod sic affectum esse sibi persuadent , colunt — fingere alium dei cul●um , est aliam dei voluntatem , proinde & alium deum fingere , &c. but , ly . what would these objectors have said to tertullian ( that renowned servant , and witness of the lord j●sus in his day ) who is , by farr , more nice in this print of idolat●y , than we have declared our selves to be : he , in his bo●k de idololatria , chargeth such as make statues or images , build or adorn temples ( though it were their trade ) astrologers , schoolmasters , ( that name the names ●f idols , making honourable mention of them in their orations ) such as keep holydayes , d●dicated to idolatrous service , as their satu●nalia ( in the stead of which , is the time with us called christmass ) &c. such as adorned their gates , posts , houses , after the pagan manner , at festivals , with lawrel , ivy , &c. as symbolizing with idolaters : yet sure we are , he could not justly be charged with an unchristian or censorious spirit . answ. the charge is rightly laid , and your plea insufficient to take it off . christs sayings were unjustly counted hard , because they were true ; yours justly , because not so : his sayings tolerable , yea precious , because they tended to direct them in the way to life eternal ; yours , judged to be from an unchristian and censorious spirit , because uncharitable , and tending to division . that , which by the protestant writers is said , is not all true : i think all will-worship is not ●dolatry : our lord , who accused the pharisees of will-worship , did not accuse them of idolatry . how farr from demonstrations your arguments are , may appear by this answer . were it fit to recriminate , i could prove you guilty of as great idolatry , as you impute to the conformists . your zeal for truth , and love to your brethrens souls , were good , if it were in a good thing : if without knowledge , and it tend to errour and schism , it may be pernicious in its consequents . as for tertullian , omitting what may be excepted against him , and the spirit by which he was acted in the close of his life , which shewed him to be ( as dr. casaubon observes , in his treatise of enthusiasm , ch . . ) a man , though otherwise learned , that ascribed too much to private revelations , out of an excess of zeal , which he shewed in all his works , ( in which , i wish it were true , that this author , who here so extolls him , were not too like him ) i conceive tertullian might have such reasons for his niceness in the point of idolatry in his time , when the christians lived among pagan idolaters , who bore sway in the empire of rome , which only maintained such idolatry as the publick received worship , and persecuted christians for not conforming to their idol-service , as this author hath not , for his accusing ministers of idolatry , for using a service-book in the main right , in respect of the worship ; and a gesture , avowed to be only to the true god ; in a church , holding in the main , the ●ight faith ; under a prince , that professes the same faith and worship , and to be a defender of it . as for such reliques of pagan customes , or popish , as yet remain , though it were to be wished , they were quite left , 〈◊〉 sith they are not used in any honour to the pagan idols , but the original and reason of them at first , being almost , if not quite forgotten by those that use them , and are become but as civil customes , that have no state in religious worship , experience shews , that they are more easily reformed by neglect , than by earnest declamations against them nor do i think , the course this author takes , of seeking reformation by invectives and separations , likely ●o promote it ; but to exasperate rulers , and make opposites more violent in their way . it is added , sect. . the martyrs are unjustly made idolaters by this author . obj. . but what shall we judge of latimer , ridley , hooper , and many other famous witnesses and martyrs of christ , who worshipped god after the same way of worship that these do now ? were they also idolaters ? how could they be saved then , when ●he scripture sayes , that no idolater shall inherit the kingdom of god , and we do not find that they repented hereof ? to this we answer , . that the persons instanc'd in , were eminent witnesses of jesus christ in their day ( whose very names are in our nostrils as sweet perfume ) we readily grant , and would be loth to speak one word to abate of that just esteem is due to their names , and testimony for christ. ly . that they are now with christ , and shall come with him , a●d sit upon thrones to judge their unjust judges , in the day app●in●ed thereunto , we have not the least scruple . but , ly . they were but men , encompassed about with many infirmities : that they were guilty of the sin of idolatry , cannot ( from what hath been said herein , its evident ) be denied . y●t , . they were , in that day , but just peeping out of the gates of babylon , beginning to arise , and shake themselves out of the dust of the abominations of the great whore ; and , t is no wonder , if some of the filth of her fornications did cleave to them . . they worshipped god in sincerity , according to the light he was pl●●sed in that day to communicate ; and god accepted of them in christ , granting to them a general repentance for those iniquities they saw not to be so , or knew not themselves to be guilty of : which is all we shall at present say hereunto . the intelligent reader knows , that these things are not of any moment , for the invalidating of what hath been offered upon this subject . thus farr of this argument , the present ministers of england are guilty of idolatry ; therefore , t is the duty of saints , not to hear , but separate from them . answ. though this objection be not a direct answer to your argument , yet it is a very great prejudice against it , that by striking at the present ministers , you wound the holy martyrs ; you make them idolaters for that very thing for which they dyed , that they might not be idolaters ; judging them , as committing idolatry , in kneeling with such respect to the bread , as they did utterly detest , abhorred to the death , and for witnessing against it , laid down their lives in the flames ; and making all the godly at that time , who did as they did , and held communion with them , guilty of their sin , for hearing them , and not separating from them , and urging that against the present ministers , which the holy martyrs rejoyced in , and the ministers think themselves happy , that they are found like them . me-thinks when you wrote this chapter , you should have thought of that which is psal. . . if i say , i will speak thus : behold , i should offend against the generation of thy children : and have taken heed , how you had perswaded to separation for that , which in the martyrs you make their infirmity , and in charity you might so conceive of the present ministers : whereof many of them , even of the bishops , and such as were in exile with the king , and others , at home , and abroad , have shewed their constant adherence to the doctrine of the church of england , particularly against the ado●ation of the consecrated host , when they were tempted to joyn with the papists . i wish you did not strengthen the hands of the papists , by this your pleading , rather than help to reduce them from their great abominations : and that you did not weaken the protestant party , by hind●ing the union that should be among men that agree in the main , though they dissent in some things considerable , in this time , wherein the common cause is endangered by divisions . if the martrys were but peeping out of the gates of babylon , it may seem , they were not , in your opinion , escaped thence , if some of the filth of the great whores fornications did cleave to them , how is it , they are now with christ , where no unclean thing enters ? that they should repent of that which they offered to justifie a little afore they dyed , is not likely . it would be more for your comfort , and the churches peace , if by getting out of babylon , you did not run to the contrary extreme of fana●icism : and in seeking reformation , you did no● unsettle all ; and that you did review this argument , in which i find strong accusation , and weak proof . chap. . arg. th . and th . sect. . every offence of others , makes not sinful , that which otherwise is lawful . t is not lawful for saints to do any thing , for the doing whereof , there is no positive p●ecept in the scripture , that is an offence , grief , scandal , and cause of stumbling to their brethren : but the hearing the present ministers of england ( as there is no positive precept in the scripture for it , so it ) is an offence , grief , scandal , and cause of stumbling to the brethren : therefore . the major ( or first proposition ) is bottom'd upon express precepts in the scripture , rom. . , , . cor. . , ▪ and . . answ. there are varieties of circumstances and cases incident to the point of scandal ▪ which make the action from which it ariseth to be lawful or unlawful : there are several effects of scandal , and divers degrees considerable : there are several states of persons offending , and offended . all which , and more besides , do require caution in denying or granting the major proposition : of these i wrote many years agoe , a treatise of scandalizing , sold by richard r●yston at the sign of the angel in ivy-lane , in london : from whence many limitations may be fetch'd by the intelligent reader , wherewith to limit the major proposition , without which it is not to be granted , nor is it to be proved from the texts alleged . nevertheless , because if ● should take them in here , i should enlarge and encumber the present dispute too much , i think to let the major pass at present , and to wave also the exception which might be taken at the form of the argument , the conclusion either not being that which is to be proved but by consequence , or if it be , there be four terms in the syllogism , and to examin what he saith for his minor . sect. . hearing the present ministers may be the saints duty ▪ the minor ( or second proposition ) , saith he , consists of two parts . . that for hearing the present ministers of england , there is no positive warrant in the scripture ; if there be , let it be produced , and this controversie is at an end : the contrary thereunto hath all along been manifest in this present d●scourse . it cannot enter into our hearts , to imagin , that the lord jesus having instituted officers of his own , for the management of affairs in his house , should ordain , that any of his houshold should attend upon the ministry of such as are not of his institution ( as hath been abundantly demonstrated touching the present ministers of england , that they are not ) nor is it by many pleaded as their duty so to do ; but onely as their liberty , which they judge they may , or they may not do , without sin . answ. what warrant there is to hear the present ministers of england hath been shewed ▪ and that which hath been produced to the contrary examined especially ch . . & . the institution of christ concerning ministers , and what concerns their calling hath been also discussed especially in answer to the preface , and the chapter : in which places is shewed , that warrant by permission is sufficient to justify the hearing of ministers ; that the positive precept for hearing determins not hearing of ministers as thus called , but as teaching the word of god ; that such election and ordination , as this author requires , are not necessary to make make men instituted officers of christ , that while the present ministers preach the word of god the saints may , and ought to attend on their ministery : and that they are not bound to examine their outward calling , but to leave that to rulers , and themselves only to examin their doctrine ; that they may as lawfully attend on their ministry if edifying them in the faith , as on the ministers of a gathered congregation , that they ought rather in obedience to rulers , and to avoid schism ▪ and to prevent the intangling of themselves with private and novel opinions which are more easily vented in private meetings then in publique , and more readily entertaine● by private persons ( few of whom are learned and judicious ) than in more publique and solemn auditories : to hear ministers that preach the truth in publique congregations caeteris paribus , if their abilities , and faithfulness be alike , than to hear ministers in gathered churches privately meeting . and with these explications , i asse●t it not onely the saints liberty , but also their duty to attend upon the ministry of the present ministers of england . it follows . sect. . sinful scandalizing is not by hearing the present ministers . . that for the saints ( such as are visibly so , profess themselves to be such ) to hear the present ministers of england , is an offence , grief , scandal and occasion of stumbling to their brethren . this is too evident to be denyed , to how many thousands in england , for whom ( those that as yet attend upon the present ministry thereof , dare not but think ) christ dyed , is the practice of some herein , a grief , scandal and occasion of stumbling ? their groanes and tears alone , and together upon this foot of account , will better demonstrate the truth thereof , than our words can . yea , how many poor souls have been drawn , by reason of the practice of some leading bretheren in this matter , against the checks of their own consciences to a conformity herein , to their after grief and wounding ? vpon whose doors 't is to be feared ( and we wish they would in the fear of god , lay it to heart ) may be written , the bloud of souls . answ. the term of visible saints hath been too much contracted by being almost appropriated to the members of those churches , which are termed congregational in contradistinction to presbyterial , and prelatical : or if applyed to any of the more zealous of the presbyterial way of disciplin , yet scarce vouchsafed to any of them , who are for episcopal government , or conformable to the worship and ministry of the church of england , who are commonly termed antichristian , persons without , in babylon : and for men to profess th●mselves visible saints is in effect all one as to say they are of a gathered church ; all others being counted without . which abuse of words , as it smels of arrogance , in appropriating to themselves the title , which is common to all true believers , and uncharitableness in conceiving of others as no visible saints , because they are not entered into that , which is termed church covenant ; so is it injurious to others , though godly , from whom such are estranged as no visible saints , but they are censured and declined as persons without , that have nothing in them of god , yea as adversaries to the power of godliness , meer formalists , if they speak for the common-prayer book , or any thing favourably of any of the bishops ; and this serves for a design of keeping them to themselves without joyning in prayer and hearing in publique , which they call hearing with the world out of the church . this i conceive to be the reason of this authors expressions here of the saints visibly so scandalizing their bretheren by their hearing the ministers that now preach publickly . by which it may be seen , that he regards not much who do hear the present ministers of england , so that they do not ; as if it were not necessary to deterre all others from hearing them , if they be false prophets and idolaters , as this author accuseth them , yea and to oppose them even unto the death , if they be such : so that this argument is unnecessary , if the other be good , and rather supposeth all that is formerly disputed to be weak ; yet this point of scandal may serve turn to affright them from communion with the publique ministery and keep them to themselves , though it prove never so injurious to their peace and outward estate , and sinful by reason of the schism that is continued by it . for this reason i shall examin this argument also as it is here delivered , and so much the rather because i have found by experience , that when in this and other doubts of conscience i have in conference with honest but scrupulous christians satisfied them concerning the lawfulness of that which they doubted of , yet in this i could hardly quiet their consciences , that they might do without sin what they scrupled to do , because they should offend good people , the scandalizing of whom our saviour and the apostle paul make a hainous sin , and procuring an heavy curse . for which reason i printed the treatise of scandalizing forementioned , more then twenty years ago ; in the epistle dedicatory whereof are these words in my small reading and experience i finde few doubts of conscience , concerning mens patent actions , in the resolving of which the difficulty hath not most of all rested on this point of scandal . at present , i shall not open the word scandal , nor insist on the definition of scandal , nor the sorts of scandalizing or causes of it , or the various cases concerning it , leaving the reader to that treatise , or to what else hath been since written by d. henry hammond of scandal , ma. henry jeanes , of abstinence from appearance of evil , and others for a fuller understanding of this point , but assert that notwithstanding what is here said of the offence of brethren ▪ and the sad consequence of blood guiltiness , which this author would have it conceived the hearing the present ministers tends to : yet neither the so termed visible saints , nor any other by hearing the present ministers , do sin against the precepts of non-scandalizing , given by christ or his aposte st. paul. matth. . . luke . . rom. . . . . cor. . . . . and . which i prove thus . . that is not scandalizing forbidden in these texts which is neither by giving evil example in doing ▪ that which is intrinsecally or of it self evil , though none were offended , nor by enticing practices , or persecution impelling to evil ; nor by abuse of liberty in things lawful to the harm of another ; which are all the wayes i know of scandalizing there forbidden , if there be any other shewed i think however it will not reach to the present case : that which this author seems to reduce it to is the last , in that he puts in a parenthesis in the minor these words ( there is no positive precept in scriptures for it . ) but it is not to be reduced to that sort of scandalizing , for the hearing of the present ministers of england cannot be accounted a matter of liberty , or indifferency , but either duty or sin , hearing the word of god being an express precept in the general , and so is obeying them that are rulers : now the ministers preaeh the word of god , and our rulers command us to hear them , and this they have power to do , and in this they have power over their subjects as parents have over their children , and masters over their servants , and are to be obeyed in that which is not evil , but good , and therefore the scandalizing is not by abuse of liberty in things indifferent ; nor is it scandalizing in doing a thing in it self evil or impelling to it , as hath been shewed in the foregoing chapters of this answer . therefore the offending bretheren what ever it be by hearing the present ministers is not the scandalizing forbidden . . that is not scandalizing forbidden in those texts , which doth not tend to any of those evils , for preventing of which , those precepts of not scandalizing were given ▪ but the hearing of the present ministers tends not to any of those evils , for preven●ing whereof , those precepts of not scandalizing were given . this is proved , because it tends not to any sin , but to the performance of duty in hearing gods word : nor to any such sorrow or vexation , as the precepts would have prevented ; which were such , as made either persons to be discouraged in christianity , or to walk uncomfortably in the profession of it , as by view of the texts may appear . but to neither of these effects doth the hearing of the present minister tend . this author saith , it makes visible saints to grieve , as their grones and tears alone and together demonstrate . but , how doth the hearing the present ministers tend to it ? sure , neither in the nature of the action , no● in the will of him that hears , if the person do hear , as perswaded he may , and ought to do it , is any tendency to such grief : neither is there aptitude to beget it , in what he doth , which harms not the grieved : nor intention to produce it , when he does but what he is to do ▪ and neglects not what belongs to him to do , to hinder it . in this case , the persons grieved , if it be , because they are displeased with what is done , out of a contrary judgement , they grieve themselves ; if they mourn for it , as the hearers sin , because it is a recession from their party , it is not out of zeal that they groan , but out of frowardness , out of passion , not out of compassion , out of an erroneous principle , to which they adhere , not out of weakness of faith. this author saith , many poor souls have been drawn , by reason of the practice of some leading brethren in this matter , against the checks of their own conscience , to a conformity herein , to their after grief and wounding , and so those leaders guilty of spilling the blood of souls . surely this were a direful scandalizing , if this conformity were a return to babylon , as they would make it : but being no such matter , this is but a scarbug : if there be such checks of conscience , after grief and wounding , it is to be imputed to such as this author , who represents it to such a poor soul , as a horrid sin ; not to him , that by doing what he may and ought , leads others to do the like . but the truth is , those offended brethren , for the most part , are vexed and enraged , ( as their reviling speeches , and hard censures shew ) rather for the crossing them in their way , than affected with godly sorrow for it , as a sin , counting him as an enemy , scarce ever admonishing as a brother , contrary to thes. . . which is so much the worse in them , in that , by representing the hearing of publick teachers as dangerous and odious , many fall to the opinions of quakers , seekers , and other erroneous opinions and practises , which by hearing the present ministers , might have been prevented ; which whether they groan and weep for , their own consciences can tell them : so farr as i discern , the principles of the separatists , and their practice , have occasioned them ; and for that i think they ought to mourn . . that is not scandalizing forbidden in those texts , which doth not arise from any defect of charity , or undue behaviour of the person offending ; but from the distemper of the person offended . but the offence by the hearers of the present ministers , doth not arise from any defect of charity , or undue behaviour of the person offending ; but from the distemper of the person offended . therefore it is not the scandalizing forbidden in those texts , which do impute the offending to defect of charity , or pride , in contempt , or the like undue behaviour , towards the offended , rom. . . cor. . , . but that it is prejudice in the offended , wherewith they are pre-possessed , and such other malignity as comes from thence , will be made manifest in the examination of what is said by this author , in answer to the objection of scandal taken . . that is not scandalizing forbidden in those texts , which is not offending of persons weak in the faith , and of doubting consciences , yet peaceably minded ; but of persons conceiving themselves strong , able to argue against the practice of hearing the present ministers , that oppose it with violence , will entertain no fair debate with them that dissent , but inveigh against them , with many more evidences of wilfulness in their way . but such is the disposition and carriage of those , that pretend to be offended with the hearing of the present ministers , as experience doth too frequently evince . therefore , the offence is not such , as is forbidden in the texts , which forbid offending the weak , rom. . . and . . cor. . , . . . that is not scandalizing forbidden in those texts , which is by using our liberty where we know not any present that will be offended at the use of our liberty , or that signifies his offence at our action , when we do it , in which case the apostle allows the eating of things offered to idols cor. . , , . and consequently the use of our liberty in other things lawful and if any that are absent are likely to be offended , we have given a just rea●on , or are ready to give a just reason of our doing , for this is all , that in this case charity binds us to , to wit , to do what lies in us to rectify them . but so it is in the offence of persons at hea●ing the present ministers : they that are offended are either absent , or signify not their offence , or exception , if present ; or if they do before or after shew their dislike , have the reasons given of our practise ; or the offending person is ready to do it , as experience shews : therefore the offence taken at their hearing is not scandalizing forbidden . . that is not the scandalizing forbidden in those texts , in which , if the offence be regarded , the pe●son supposed to offend shall be deprived of his liberty , and the benefit of the use of it , and not for one time only but alwayes , contrary to the apostles resolution cor. . ▪ . and that not in a thing which he ma● be well without , such as was flesh offered to an idol ▪ but also that , which is of grea●est moment for his souls welfa●e , the hearing of the word of god , and thereby his liberty will be lost , and a yoke of bondage received contrary to gal. . , and . . but so it is in the offence for the hearing the present ministers , if it were regarded , so as to abstain from hearing to satisfy this author , and such as are like minded , the persons supposed to offend them must never hear them , nor any of them though preaching never so profitably , and so must not only lose the present benefit , but also be deprived perpetually , and judge that which is their liberty to be unlawful , and ●o intangle themselves in a yoke of bondage , which it were sinful for them to do , and that without any real benefit to the offended , therefore they cannot be rightly judged to scandalize , as it is forbidden in the texts mentioned who offend others by their hearing of the present ministers , as they are charged . . that is not the scandalizing forbidden in those texts , the avoiding of which drawes after it a greater scandal and of worse consequence ; and that which is not imaginary only , but real scandal . this i conceive none should deny : for if every scandal should be avoided , then the chiefest , in which case the lesser , and only imaginary , cannot be said to be forbidden . but in shunning to hear the present ministers , there is a real , manifold worse scandal , than is by hearing of them . which i demonstrate thus , . the person that might hear a profitable preacher , by shunning hearing of him , upon the conceit of unlawfulness to hear him , doth scandalize himself , contrary to matth . , . and . , . in that he confirms himself in his superstitious errour , and hinders his spiritual good , and progress in christianity , and ensnares himself in an unjustifiable separation . . he doth also truly scandalize ▪ others by his example ; confirming those that refuse to hear , in their errour and schism , whom he ought to oppose , as st. paul did st. peter , gal. . . when their shunning to hold communion with some , as unclean , tends to the establishing of an errour and schism , as his did . . by this refusing to hear the present ministers , through such suggestions as this author instills into the minds of men against them , people are driven from the publique congregations , and thereby the sheep of christ are scattered ; some betake themselves to the meetings of quakers , where they are mis-led by the delusions of satan , under pretence of following the light within them , other joyn with the fifth monarchy men , who pervert them with peruicious tenents and designes against magistrates ; and in the best of the separatists , there is so much bitterness and enmity , against dissenters from them , instilled into their minds , as quite breaks the bond of charity , that should unite all christs discipl●s , which surely is real scandal . . the refuser to hear the p●esent ministers , doth really scandalize tho●e that a●e confo●mists in hearing , who are therefore unrighteously judged , censured and shunned , as lapsed brethren , or meer formalists , and thereby are grieved , and moved to mourn , for this evil spirit , that is between them , and their brethren . the present ministers are al●o much scandalized for the same cause , and are much hind●ed in the performance of their ministry , by reason of the opposition of the separatists ; which experience hath too much shewed , in former and later times , to have hindred the fruits of many holy preachers , even non-conformists labours and to have shortned their dayes ; so that upon the doors of the separatists may be written , with greater reason , than upon the doors of the diligent conforming preachers of the gospel , the blood of souls therefore scandalizing by hearing the present ministers , is not forbidden in the texts alleged . . that scandalizing is not forbidden in those texts , by avoiding of which , the magistrate is scandalized , his government disturbed , his power excited against others , as disobedient to his laws ; and for that reason ▪ many persons , with their families , undone in their liberties , and outward estate . for the offence of our brother is not to be regarded , by observing of that which will include in it disobedience to the command of the magistrate , which may be lawfully obeyed , whereby his authority is n●glected , his government disturbed , division and ruine of families occasioned : but so it is , when the present ministers are not heard , as the state of things now is therefore the scandalizing by hearing the present ministers , is not forbidden in the texts , rom. . cor. . and . it follows , sect. . it is not scandal given but when the offensive action is done blameably . if it be said , object . that there is a twofold scandal , . scandalum acceptum , a scandal , or offence taken , . scandatum datum , a scandal or offence given . in respect of the former , possibly many may be offended at their practice in the matter treated of , and so would some or other whatever is done by them : 't is impossible but offences should come , that there is any just offence given by them , herein , is denied to this we answer . answ. . that as we admit of the distinction , so no doubt there is a truth in what is suggested thereupon , that what ever i do , some one or other will be offended at it : there are a generation of men , whom the doing of my duty will offend , and cause to blaspheme ; th●se are not to be minded , but to be pittied : christ himself was to some a rock of offence and stone of stumbling . . but t is not yet proved ( nor like to be ) that the scandal treated of , is a scandal taken and not given , the very nature of ●candal given , as is confest by all , and evident beyond exception from the apostles discourse , cor. . . lying in the doing of what is judged , by me , to be my liberty , which other saints are not fully perswaded of in their own minds to be so , but are ready to conclude it to be my sin , and evil , and from thence have occasion of grief , or stumbling , administred to them . this was the very case of the church of corinth ( upon the occasion whereof , paul writes to them , cor. . ) some of them judged it their liberty , to sit at meat in the idols temple ; others , not being fully perswaded hereof , were scandalized many wayes at this their practice , which the apostle therefore condemns as unlawful . answ. . that there is any generation of men , whose offence is not to be minded , is not the doctrine of the apostle , but contrary to it , cor. . , . give none offence , neither to the jews , nor to the gentiles , nor to the church of god. even as i please all men , in all things : not seeking mine own profit , but the profit of many , that they may be saved . which practice of his he had expressed , cor. . , , , , · for though i be free from all men , yet have i made my self servant unto all , that i might gain the more . and unto the jews , i became as a jew , that i might gain the jews ; to them that are under the law , that i might gain them that are under the law ; to them that are without law , as without law , ( being not without law to g●d , but under the law to christ ) that i might gain them that are without law. to the weak , i became as weak , that i might gain the weak : to all , became i all things , that i might by all means save some . and this i do for the gospels sake , that i may be a joynt partaker thereof . where his avoiding of offence , and pleasing all , is not restrained to the saints , or the church of god , but is extended even to adversaries , that opposed the gospel , to whom he would both forbear his liberty , and do that which was otherwise not to be done ; as in the case of circumcising timothy , acts . . and taking on him a vow , acts . . and purifying himself with others , acts . . and . . and other wayes , acts . , , . while there was any likelyhood , either of winning them to the liking of the gospel , or abating their opposition , and procuring his own peace and safety : but when it was dis-advantage to the truth of the gospel , he would not have titus to be circumcised , nor any compliance with the jews in declining eating with the gentiles , gal. . , , which yields us a rule , whose offence we are to avoid ; with whom , and when we are to comply in things lawful ; to wit , with all , either when we may win them to the embracing of the truth , or the abating the opposition of adversaries , or procuring our own peace . which is a good plea for them , that , by hearing the present ministers , do accommodate themselves in doing that which is lawful to the command of rulers for their own peace , though some brethren be thereby offended . . it is not confess'd by all , that the very nature of scandal given , lyes in the doing of what is judged , by me , to be my liberty which other saints are not fully perswaded of in their own minds to be so , but are ready to conclude it to be my sin and evil , and from thence have occasion of grief or stumbling administred to them . for , . dr. hammond in his treatise of scandal , after he had accurately considered the use of the word [ scandal ] and the sorts of scandal , § . , , , , , . he inferrs , that no man is offended or scandalized , but he that falls into some sin : that to be angry , grieved , troubled , at any action of another , is not [ to be offended ] in the scripture sense : nor consequently doth it follow , that i have done amiss , in doing that which another man is angry at , unless my action be in it self evil . for if it be not , then he is angry without cause , and that is his fault , not mine ; yea , and he judgeth or censures his brother , that hath done no hurt , which the weak are forbid to do , rom. . . and secondly , he is of a●l men most unlikely to do that after me , which he is angry at me for doing ; and therefore i have least reason to fear , or possibly to foresee , that he will be scandaliz'd in the scripture phrase : which fear , or fore-sight , were the only just motive to me , to abstain from any justifiable indifferent action . and as for the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , grieved , rom. . . he gathers it from the occasion of the grief of the grieved persons eating with a doubting conscience , the three words by which it is explained , v . stumbling , being offended , and being weak or sick ; that the meaning is [ ●is grieved ] i e. wounded , or falls into sin . which he endeavours to shew , to be agreeable to language in other words , and in that word . whether he be in the right , or not , this seems to me most agreeable to the text , that 〈◊〉 grief mentioned rom. . . ( which is the only place where i find grief in the offended , made the effect of offence forbidden ) is the grief of the offended , from his own action , in eating with a doubting conscience : not from the action of him that used his liberty uncharitably . for if the offended had been displeased , angry and grieved , because he did eat , he had not followed his example , but would have shunned his practice , as judging him licentious in so doing . and therefore , it is not right , that this author and others , object scandal given by the conformists , because they do that , for which their brethren do mourn , as done by them , but do not follow them in , only are displeased , and angry with them for so doing . mr. jeanes , in the d. edition of his treatise of abstinence from appearance of evil , p. . the mistake of scandal , for the angring one , is taken notice of by calvin also , upon cor. . . having affirmed , that some corrupted the doctrine of scandal with foolish glosses , and others with their impious calumnies , he sheweth the original of both their mistakes , touching the meaning of offence in the apostle utrique errant in verbo offendendi : nam offendere accipiunt , pro incurrere in odium vel offensionem hominum , aut , quod idem ferè est , facere quod ipsis displiceat , vel minus arrideat . atqui clarissimè patet ex contex●u , nihil esse aliud quàm malo exemplo ranquam obice fratiem impedi●e à recto cu●su , aut illi praebere causam lapsus . non ergo hic disputat paulus de retinendâ hominum gratiâ ▪ sed de sublevandis infirmis , nè concidant ; & prudenter regendis ne à rectâ viâ deflectant were dr. hammond , or my self mistaken , yet all that i meet with , do make it necessary to active scandal , that it be in all such words , or deeds , as culpably occasion the fall of another , whether of themselves , or by accident . and for passive scandal , if it be culpably both given and taken , then it is scandalum datum : if it be culpably taken , and not culpably given , then it is scandalum acceptum , as m. jeanes speaks , in his later edition , p. . of his treatise of abstinence from appearance of evil . so that , until there appear something culpable in hearing the present ministers , they that hear them cannot be justly charged with scandal given by them to their brethren and this will not be proved , untill it be shewed , that either by the nature and condition of their hearing , or the intention of the hearers , their brethren are made to sin against god. for , as it is in the discourse concerning the interest of words in prayer , by h. d.m a. ( commended before by this author , ch . . p. . ) in the postscript , p. . the true notion of a scandalous action , is , any action done by us , not being required by the divine law , by which our brother , whether from the nature and condition of the thing done , or the intention of him that doth it , or both , is made to sin against god and therefore , it is not confess'd by all , that the nature of scandal given , lyes in the doing of what is judged , by me , to be my liberty , which other saints are not fully perswaded of in their own minds to be so , but are ready to conclude it to be my sin and evil , and from thence have occasion of grief or stumbling administred to them ; unless that stumbling be by falling into sin , through the culpability of my action , either from the faulty nature of it , or my intention in the doing of it , by my unseasonable doing it , with fore-sight of the effect , which i might have avoided . nor is what this author saith of the nature of scandal given , evident beyond exception , from the apostles discourse , cor. . . for , whereas he supposeth the case of the church of corinth , concerning the practice of them that eat idolothytes , to have been , as he expresseth it , on the one side , the offending persons judging it their liberty to sit at meat in the idols temple : and on the other side , others not being fully perswaded hereof , were many wayes scandalized at this their practice , which therefore the apostle condemns as unlawful : and conceives , the nature of scandal given , to be in these two things , one judging it his liberty to do it , another judging it evil , and grieving thereat , and that such is the offence of them that hear the present ministers , he is many wayes mistaken . . that the offending person , it is not likely , judged it his liberty to sit at meat in the idols temple , he being described as one that had knowledge , opposed to the weak , who with conscience of the idol , eat it as a thing offered to an idol , and their conscience being weak , was defiled : now it is not likely , that the strong , that had knowledge by the doctrine of christ , that what entreth into the mouth doth not defile , and therefore the eating of the idolothyte , though he knew it offered to an idol , could not defile him , would yet judge it his liberty to sit at meat in the idols temple , which was manifestly evil , even partaking of the table of devils , cor. . , . or that it was the weakness of the offended person , that he was not fully perswaded of that liberty , it had been his weakness and sin , if he had judged it his liberty to sit at meat in the idols temple . but it was the sin of him that had knowledge , that he sate at meat in the idols temple , though it was his liberty to eat it else-where , knowing it had been offered to idols : and it was the weakness of the other , that he was not so perswaded , yet was by the others practice emboldned to it , and so was defiled both with the errour and practice of eating against his conscience , with the conscience of the idol ; that is , though he knew it offered to the idol , and therefore was thereby some acknowledgement of the idol , as something honourable , or a thing sacred . however , if it were , that the offending person judged it his liberty to sit at m●at in the idols temple , yet this is ill applyed to the hearers of the present ministers , as if their hearing were such an action , as was his , that sate at meat in the idols temple : for that was having fellowship with devils , cor. . but this is the service of the living god , no idolothyte , or sitting at meat in the idols temple : and , as if being perswaded of the liberty to do the one , were like th● perswasion of the liberty to do the other , whereas , the hearers judge it not only their liberty to hear the present ministers , but also their duty , and so not , as the case stands , a thing indifferent . . this author conceives , that the corinthians were offended in that they were grieved at the practice of him that judged it his liberty to sit at meat in the idols temple , and that giving occasion of such grief , was scandal given : whereas the scandal given , was not by causing grief for the offenders practice , as evil ; but in that the offended being swayed by his practice , did , against his conscience , eat the thing offered to idols , and perhaps in the idols temple , which had been a great sin , such as would wound his conscience , make him weak or sick , and tended to his perdition , it being a degree of back sliding to idolatry : and therefore , this is ill applyed to the effect of the hearing of the present ministers , which is not in the offended any such backsliding or sin against their conscience , tending to their perdition , or present wounding of spirit ; but mourning for their brethrens conceited back sliding , which they conceive tends to their salvation , not to their perdition . the offence of the corinthians is set down by this author , without any intimation , that the corinthians might have reason to be scandalized , because the eating the idolothyte was both against the precepts of the mosaical law , and the apostles decree , acts . . which was of much moment to make the offence , scandal given , and not only taken . for if offence be taken , where there is no probable reason , why the scandalized should judge it evil , it is his fault who thus judgeth , not his who acts , that , which he sees no reason why any should conceive any evil in it . the apostle therefore did not require to forbear the eating of the idolothyte , but when the weak brother said this is offered in sacrifice to idols , cor . which shewed the reason , why he should be offended , if he did eat it ; and that reason might probably induce him to conceive it unlawful , which thing is a requisite condition to scandal given , sith , if upon any surmise of a weak brother , i must forbear my liberty , though there is no shew of reason , or no probability why he should conceive it evil to use it , my liberty would be as no liberty , and a yoak more intolerable than the law would be on my conscience . now , that there is no probable reason , why persons should imagine evil in my hearing the present ministers , notwithstanding what this author saith , hath been , and shall be further shewed , in answering that which is said by this author . . this author doth not mention that , which , in the case of the corinthians , was requisite to scandal given , to wit , that the scandal should be fore-seen , as the words cor. . , intimate ; and that not only as possible , but also as future , with some moral certainty , by reason of the presence of persons known to scruple the thing i do , or some one that intimates his dislike of my action . calvin therefore upon cor. . saith , non jubet nos apostolus divinare nunquid offendiculo futurum sit quod facimus , nisi cum est praesens periculum . the apostle doth not bid us divine , whether that we do will offend , but when there is present danger . now this shews , that the hearing the present ministers is not scandal given , where none are present that are offended , nor any give intimation of the futurity of the offence . . this author doth not take notice , that scandal given by the use of our liberty , is not to be made perpetual , as the apostles words in the same place shew : for if i must alwayes abstain from that at which another is offended , it will be made sin in it self , and so not scandal given by the intempestive use of our liberty in a thing indifferent : but that we must not yield to , that we may not lose truth for peace sake : but if men must not hear the present ministers , for the reasons given , they must never do it to avoid offence , which will be perpetual , and so the scandal supposed to be given , not such as that which was in the corinthians liberty , in eating idolothytes . . it should not have been forgotten , that the case of the offended among the corinthians , by eating idolothytes , and the brethren now in england , for hearing the present ministers , cannot be parallel'd rightly : because the corinthians offence was at the time , wherein the gospel had been but lately preached to them , and the doctrine of gospel-liberty not fully cleared , which cannot be said of christian professors in england , who have been fully instructed therein ; and therefore , in the use of our liberty now , cannot be the like offence given , and not taken only , as was in those dayes among the corinthians : yet this author thus chargeth them with scandal given . sect. . offending some sincere christians , by hearing the present ministers , is not the scandalizing threatned matth. . . should it , for arguments sake , be granted , ( though in truth it be not so ) that t is the liberty of saints , to hear the present ministers ; yet many of the sincere lambs of christ , being stumbled , grieved and scandalized herea● , for that very reason ( ●f no more could be said herein ) it becomes our sin , ( to be guilty whereof , who can chuse but be filled with trembling , that hath ever with seriousness , read that terrible commination of christ , matt. . . who so shall offend one of these little ones , that believe in me , it were better for him , that a milstone were hanged about his neck , and he were drowned in the depths of the sea ? ) especially , when those that are thus scandalized , are able to demonstrate , that their offence is not any peevish humour , or foolish nicety , but what is too really administred by the actions of their brethren : when they shall hear christ commanding them to separate from every thing of antichrist , revel . . . and therefore from his ministry ; and they are in conscience perswaded , the ministers of england are such , which they judge , they are able to demonstrate : when they consider , how the laws of their dear lord and law-giver are made void , by the traditions of these ●●e●ended ministers , whose kingship they see them visibly opposing : when they find upon them the characters of false prophets and apostles ; and are able to manifest , that they are deeply guilty of the sin of idolatry , ( from whom they are enjoyned by christ to turn away : ) yea , when they take a view of the frame of the spirits of their now conforming-brethren in dayes past , and the principles were then owned by them : that they did then ( some of them at least ) separate from the assemblies of england , as not true churches of christ ; and accounted the common-prayer book priests , persons not meet to preach , unworthy to be attended upon in their so doing : and see them now saying , a confederacy with , and attending upon the ministry of those very persons and things , from whom , not only christ hath commanded them to separate , but these very brethren did formerly decry , and , at least seemingly , abominate ; they judge , they have just ground of offence given them : nor can it be denied , but it is indeed so . answ. it were indeed very grievous to a christian , if it were their sin , and such as brings them under the terrible commination of christ , matth. . . to do , what many of the sincere lambs of christ ( much more those whom this author counts such ) are stumbled , grieved and scandalized at , for that very reason , if no more could be said therein : it were to make every honest-hearted christian , though simple , a law-giver to me , a pope , a lord over my conscience , an infallible judge , so that what he determines , i may not do or omit , because it wil grieve or offend him without any other reason , why i must not do or omit it ; this sure would take away christs king-ship really , and invest every sincere lamb of christ with it , which this author makes so hainous a thing in the present ministers , as to justifie separation from them ; it would be , to ascribe dominion to them over my faith , to spoyl me of my christian liberty , and to make me in almost every thing i do , uncertain what i may do , lest i grieve some of them , whom i have found to be so scrupulous , and so censorious , as that they are offended , if there be a prejudice against a person , at every thing he doth or saith , if it agree not with their minds . to deliver the consciences of people from such a slavery ( worse than the bondage of the mosaical law ) which this principle brings to , i conceive my self bound to do my best , and to decry it as antichristian . i think i have read seriously christs commination , matth. . . and i presume my treatise of scandalizing shews it to be meant of other scandalizing than such as this author means , to wit , such as is opposite to receiving them , v. . and is with despising , and persecution of them , v. . causing their perdition , v. , . i dare not say , that the offence of the sincere lambs of christ , is out of a peevish humour , or foolish nicety ; i hope it will not be denied , that they are weak , many of them ; i am sure , none of them are infallible , or free from undue passions and prejudice : and this is enough to quiet my conscience , in doing what i do , notwithstanding the offence of many honest christians , yea and holy learned preachers . i find cause , i confess , to mourn on their behalf , and to pitty them , whom i have heard or seen offended at my actions , which they never examine , nor by conference , or otherwise , enquire into the reasons or equity of them , taking reports upon trust , and judging them evil , without any brotherly affection , or sober consideration . i may truly say , my peace of conscience would be desperate ▪ if i must judge of my self , as they judge of me . i will not mention my own experiences , lest i should be thought to particularize ; but i find an author , one paybody , in a treatise about kneeling at the lords supper , printed . . part . ch . . p. . saying , concerning the professors of his time , opposing kneeling ( and i think opposers of the present ministers now are too like them ) thus , let not our brethren be offended , that i say , many of their professors are set on work by humour and prejudice . for , . they which profess , in great resolution , without grounds or reasons , that is , which meerly profess , in imitation of certain men of note , or for company of the best sort of christians , ( as they judge opposers to be ) or out of ill opinion conceived of conformable persons , or church government , are led by humour and prejudice . . so are they which cannot abide to be instructed or directed by them of contrary judgement ; despising the words and writings of such , before th●y know them . . they , which upon discourse , hearing many things which they cannot satisfie their consciences in , do yet never seek to have their doubts resolved , but rest in one song , say what one can to the contrary . . they which dare avow the necessity of confessing against kneeling ▪ upon pain of eternal damnation , charging other men , in the deepest obligation that may be , to stand out ; and yet , upon some other mans declaration of the lawful liberty of kneeling , at some time , can be content , without gain-saying , to profess , they never studied the point . . they which make no conscience of slandering , back-biting , conformity to the world in vaniti●s of apparel , pleasure , and scandalous covetousness , unfaithfulness in their callings , unjustice in their dealings , and such like , in opposing kneeling , are led by humour . . they which have confessed themselves to be convinced of the lawfulness , and yet will not , or would , but for their discredit in the world , specially among the persons of that side . but there is nothing more manifest , than , that many of your professors are thus and thus disposed and carried , which i doubt not , but i can particula●ly maintain , so farr , as outward expressions can discover the inward meaning or purpose . now i know you would not have us bound to abstain from kneeling ( may i not say , hea●ing ) for avoiding the scandal of such persons . but , saith this author , their offence is too really administred by the actions of their b●ethren . but who do suggest these actions , to be a sufficient reason of separation , but such as this author ( who is indeed , with others like minded , the true scandalizer , or he by whom the offence cometh ) or else it is the offended persons own inference , from the real or imaginary actions of their brethren , of a necessity of separation , that scandalizeth him . that which this author brings here , is farr from a demonstration . we find , revel . . . that st. john heard a voice from heaven , saying , come out of her● my people , that ye be not partakers of her sins , and that ye receive not of her plagues . but to ●erch out of this passage , this proposition , christ commands them to separate from every thing of antichrist ; and to inferr this conclusion , and therefore from his ministry , needs a delian diver , or cunning alchymist , or sophister , that can deduce quidlibet ex quolibet . it is plain , that the exhortation is , to goe out of rome , called babylon , ch . , . nor do i gainsay , that it is meant of it , as it is corrupted by the papacy : nor do i question , but the papal monarchy is an antichristian state ; and that , though the plain meaning is no more , but that gods people ( whereof i doubt not , some are , and will be in rome when it shall be destroyed ) should abandon that place afore it be destroyed , to avoid participation of its sins and plagues ; yet too , it may be understood of communion with the papacy in their idolatry and heresies . but it is a wild conceit , to make every thing done or used by popes , to be a thing of antichrist ; much more is it , to make the ministry of the ministers of england , the ministry of the pope , when it is so directly contrary to the pope , and popish doctrine and worship expresly abjured and abhorred by them . how frivolous his proofs are , of the present ministers opposing visibly christs kingsh●p , having the characters of false prophets , of being guilty of idolatry , is shewed already . what the frame of the spirits of the present conformists is , or hath been , god only , who is the searcher of hearts , is fit to judge , what their principles were formerly , and are now , is to be known , either by those that have conversed with them , or heard them preach , or read their writings : sure every sincere lamb of christ is neither fit nor able to judge or examine the truth of any number of conformists spirits or principles ; and therefore , if these alterations , which are here mentioned , be the ground of the offence that is taken against them , it cannot be a just ground of their taking offence . if it were , there were just ground of offence given to separate from the separatists . not to mention what of old was charged upon the brownists , whose spirits and principles were such ▪ as made many , as holy persons , as england yielded , to dehort the godly from joyning with them in their way of separation : nor what either mr. edwards , in his gangraena ; or mr. baillee , in his disswasive ; or mr. weld , in his story of the antinomians , have written , of the state of the congregational churches , the elders and messengers of the congregational churches , in the preface to their d●claration of their faith and order , in their meeting at the savoy , octob . . say , it is true , that many sad miscarriages , divisions , breaches , fallings off from holy ordinances of god , have along this time of tentation , been found in some of our churches ; yet they do not at all stumble us , as to the truth of our way ▪ had they been many more : and avow this as their great principle , that , amongst all christian states and churches , there ought to be vouchsafed a forbearance , and mutual indulgence , unto saints of all perswasions , that keep unto , and hold fast the necessary foundations of faith and holiness , in all other matters extra fundamental , whether of faith or order . mr. weld . in his answer to mr. rathband , heretofore denied not the congregations parochial in england , to be true churches , though impure : and mr , norton , in his answer to appollonius , ch . . saith , we reject the separatists , who distinguish not between the church , and the impurities of the church : whence the great crime of schism . yet this author , not considering , that the congregational men disclaim his rigid separation , avows separation as commanded by christ from the church of england , as no true church ; and condemns hearing the present ministers , as the ministers of antichrist , though they preach the gospel of christ , because of some defects conceived in their calling , and some impurities , real or imaginary , in their worship , as if it were saying a confederacy , forbidden isai. . and a just ground of offence given to the sincere lambs of christ , in that they do not separate from the assemblies of england . but he hath not yet done , but adds , sect. . the separatists give more just cause of offence to godly sober christians , than the conformists do to them . if it be yet further said , obiect . . but if i do not goe to hear the preachers of this day , many truly godly and sober christians will be offended at my forbearance ; so that whether i hear , or whether i forbear , i shall offend . to this i answer , that , granting the case to be as is suggested , ( though perhaps somewhat else , upon a serious and strict search , may be found to lye at the bottom of our conformity , beyond what is here pleaded : i am very apt to believe , were but a toleration granted , t is not the fear of offending any , would cause our conforming brethren to attend upon the ministry of the present priests of england . yet supposing it to be as is intimated ) we ask . do you look upon your going to hear , as your duty , or meerly as your liberty ? if the first , let it be proved from any positive precept of christ , and we are satisfied : if the second , you are bound by many solemn injunctions ( which are at least reduceable to the moral law ) not to use your liberty to scandalize your brethren . . let both parties be weighed in an upright ballance , such as you judge to be offended with you for not hearing , and such as are offended thereat : i am bold to say , that the last mentioned , for number , holiness , spirituality , and tenderness , do farr surmount the former , who will really be scandalized at your forbearance . . let also the grounds of the offence on both sides be weighed : the one are offended at you , that you build not up in practise , in a day of trouble ; and cause thereby the enemies of the lord to triumph and blaspheme , what in a day of liberty , you did , in your preaching and practice , pull down and destroy : the other , because of your disobedience to what they are satisfied , and you your selves once were , god is calling you to ( viz. to have nothing to do with , separate from this generation of men . ) but , . that t is your duty ( especially if in a church-relation ) to meet together , as a people called and picked by the lord out of the nations of the world , cannot be denied : the neglect of which , is charged by the lord , as the first step to apostacy , heb. . . be you in the practice of this duty , and see what spiritual saint will be offended at you ; if any should , you might have peace therein : you doing your duty , no just cause of scandal is given . yet further , . consider on which side the cross lies , which the flesh , and fleshly interest is most opposite to , whether in going , or forbearing to goe to hear these men : vsually , that is the way of god , that hath most of the cross in it , and the flesh is most strugling and contesting against . but thus much of the th . argument . answ. if the case be granted as is suggested , the same argument , which proves it unlawful to hear the present ministers , proves it unlawful not to hear them , unless omission may not be said to scandalize , which is contrary to matth. . . no serious and strict search of men , can find what lies at the bottom of mens conformity , till god discover it . it is not fit to insinuate conceits of others , which beget evil surmises in us of them ; true charity believeth all things , cor. . . it is a fruit of malignity , to say , i am very apt to believe , what may beget evil prejudice in me , or another , towards a brother . but what if there were an embracing a toleration , if granted ? this would only shew , that they did not tye themselves to the present ministry ; not that then , or now , they hold it unlawful to hear them ; nor that their hearing is only to avoid offence : but for other reasons conjunct with it , which may be lawfully aimed at in the same act . sure it is not evil in doing that which is lawful to arm at our own peace , and other outward advantage besides the avoiding of offence . if a man were disposed to retaliate , it might perhaps be told this author , that perhaps somewhat else lay at the bottom , besides his not offending the lambs of christ : that he did separate heretofore , it may be credit ▪ preferment , power and gain , lay that way ; it may be , adherence to a party , interest in their affections , that , i say no more , retains him still in this way : yet would he take this ill ; and why he should do to other , what he would not they should do to him , i see no cause : christ taught otherwise , matth. . , , , , , . but to the question , i answer , it is their duty to hear the present ministers , while they preach the gospel , or word of god : and though , by immediate precept , a man is not bound to hear this or that particular minister , of this or that way of church-government or perswasion , but is at liberty to choose , as may be ( all things considered ) for his conveniency ; yet , if other things concurr , he ought to hear such , as the providence of god hath placed over him , or near his habitation , though he be not chosen by himself to be his pastour , which i think may be proved from th●s . . heb. . john ▪ mark . . how we are to avoid scandalizing our brethren , is shewed above : but it favours of schism , to appropriate the term [ brethren ] to christians of our perswasion , or of our society . who exceed in number , holiness , spirituality and tenderness , is a hard thing to determine . vivorum difficilis est censura . who can tell what measure of these qualifications there is in them that are living ? who can point out , who are such , who not ? who can tell , what men may prove , for all their fair shews ? how is it possible for this author , or any other , to number them , compare , weigh them in an upright ballance ? may not those be more carnal , yea very hypocrites , which he counts spiritual saints ? are not he , and all others , specially of his way of separation , most apt to magifie those who jump with him in his way ; and to disparage dissenters ? are not the sincere lambs of christ oftentimes carried away with false shews , and partial affections , and wrong reports ? what a lesbian leaden rule doth this author then give , whose offence is to be avoided , rather than anothers ? yea , the rule is against his scope : for if those non-hearers be such holy spiritual persons , as he makes them , there is the less danger of offending them . yet i dare not grant it they are : the experience the world hath had of the brethren of the congregational way , hath yet given us no such assurance of their surpassing holiness , but that they have been , many of them ▪ ca●nal , and walked as men . have not they , even some of the prime leaders of them , shewed as much passion , pride . covetousness , self-seeking , and other sinister affections , as others of different wayes ? sure hildersham , ball , bradshaw , gataker , and many other , who have opposed the way of separation of old , and of late have given as much proof of their holiness , spirituality and tenderness as johnson , ainsworth , robinson , and others , in old or new - england , or holland have done ▪ nor do i think any of the congregational way have exceeded , i will not say the martyr'd bishops in q. maries dayes , but even late bishops , vsher , bedel , potter , and others of the prelatical ministers and churches , in holiness , spirituality and tenderness . let the reader pardon my just indignation at this rotten and stinking course of puffing up his own party , and disparaging dissenters , which can never tend to clear truth , and beget righteous judgements in men , but to delude men with specious pretences , and ●oment divisions . non est ex personis fides aestimanda , sed ex fide persona , said tertullian , truth is not to be measured by the persons , but the persons by truth . if we must know our duty , by this authors rule , we must leave studying the holy scripture , and study men . every weak christian must take upon him an impossible task , to weigh two parties in an upright ballance , one offended at hearing the present ministers , and the other for not hearing them , and both being conceived godly and sober christians , judge which party is most numerous , holy , spiritual , and tender . nor is the next direction much better . it supposeth , that they who conform , whether ministers or h●arers , blame the separatists , that they do not build up in practice in a day of trouble , what in a day of liberty they did in their preaching and practice pull down and destroy : and thereby cause the enemies of the lord to blaspheme , and that this is the ground of the offence on the one side : that th●y are disobedient to what they are satisfied , and the conformists ministers , or hearers of them , or both , once were ; that god is calling them to have nothing to do with , to separate from this generation of men , and that this is the ground of the offence on the other side : and that the ground of the offence is more just on the side of these later . these words are aenigmatical , and require an o●dipus to unriddle them . however , this i conceive is his meaning . that the godly and sober christians have no reason to be offended at him , and others of his way , that , what in their preaching and practice , he and they did pull down and destroy , conce●ning the p●elatical conforming preachers , their communion , and church government , and worship by the common-prayer book ; they do not by conformity in hearing and communion build up ; because if they should do so , they should cause the opposite party ( whom he counts the enemies of the lord ) to triumph , that they have brought them to recantation , and returning to what they had left ; and to blaspheme , or speak evil of the holy way of endeavouring reformation they formerly took in the day of liberty , because they are now fallen into a day of trouble : on the other side , that this author , and those of his way , being satisfied , that god is calling all godly sober christians to have nothing to do with , but to separate from this generation of men , that is , ministers that conform to the common-prayer book , and episcopal government ; and that these now hearers of them , were once satisfied of the same ; that yet they should disobey this calling of god , and hold communion with them , have most just cause of offence for their so doing . but i presume the godly sober christians in the objection , were never satisfied with this way of separation , which this author saith , god calls them to , but though they have been for reformation , yet not for such violent practises and preaching , as , it may be gathered , this author hath been for , as to pull up root and branch of the old form of government , to unsettle all the ministers , to set up itinerant preachers ▪ any gifted brethren , though many of them never studied divinity , but had gotten some ability by hearing preachers , and other wayes , to speak of practical points , without any ability to convince gainsayers ; and that they should take away the frame of parochial churches , and gather churches out of churches , which should , though but a few , be an entire church within themselves for government , without appeal or subordination to any other minister or synod ; that they should be tyed to use no form , no not the lords prayer ; in effect , that there should be , as some were wont to speak , overturning , overturning , overturning , without setling any thing , making the pastors eligible by every small company , that should call themselves a church , who should admit and excommunicate by most voices , censure their pastor , desert him , allot him maintenance , and deprive him , as they saw cause sure the godly sober ch●istians , who now are offended at this authors separation , were then offended , as many of their writings then did shew , and the apology of the ejected non-conformists lately hath shewed , p . of the d. edition ; and particularly at that eminent independent , who would not have the lords prayer used in the prescript form of words , p. . which , and the like courses , they conceive were in the day of liberty evil , and occasions of the day of trouble , and if persisted in , likely to bring more trouble on themselves and others , who neither then , nor now did , o● do approve of such rigid separation , or deformation of all , instead of reformation , conceiving a middle way might agree better with truth and peace ▪ they condemn such heavy censures of them that a●e of the opposite party , as if they were the enemies of the lord , a generation of men they were called by god to have nothing to do with , but to separate from them , sith they are christians of the same faith , they judge , that this author , and such as acted , as he seems to have done , should have brought glory to god , and peace to their own consciences , if they had un-said those things , which abusing their liberty , they vented heretofo●e ▪ and did endeavour to promote union , as they have done division , and this would tend to their honour , as augustine's ret●acta●ions did , and would not cause the enemies of the lord to triumph and blaspheme , but both them , and all sober godly christians , to rejoyce , and bless god for their so doing , who are now justly offended at these separatists pertinacy , and have , by their moderate conformity in hearing ministers , who preach the gospel , and joyning in the publique worship of prayer , and the communion , given no just cause of offence to this author , or any other . nor do they think i● their duty to meet together as a sepa●ate church : nor do they conceive , that heb. . ● requires such assembling , but that the fo●saking th● assembling there meant , was the forsaking the assembl●ng of christ●ans , and going back from christianity to judaism , as the whole series of the text shews ; and that their joyning in the publique assemblies in england ▪ is agreeable to the precept there , and that it ●ends no● to ap●stacy . but the assemblies , according to the separatists p●inciples , are schismatical , and that spiritual saints will be offended at them , at giving just cause of scandal , nor can they expect peace by so doing : nor is that which is here , made a rule [ 〈◊〉 that way , that hath most of the cr●ss in it ; ] right , suffe●ings being n●t ●ight , unless the cause be for god sometimes the ●onforming 〈◊〉 , sometimes the popish pr●est● , have been under sufferings ; yet i suppose this author would not have men go their way ; and therefore his rule is not sale , until the cause for which we are to suffer , be proved to be for god. sect. . hearing the present ministers , may be without participation with them in sin . arg. . that which saints cannot do , without being guilty of partaking with others in their sin , is utterly unlawful for them to do : but the saints cannot attend upon the ministry of england , without being gu●lty of partaking with them in their sin : therefore . the major proposition is clearly bottom'd upon scripture , psal. . ● . ephes. . ▪ tim. . . john . revel . . . which m●ght be abundantly demonstrated , were it needful : sure that god , who commands me to abstain from all appearance of evil , thes. . . never enjoyned , expects no● that i should be in the practice of what , without sin , cannot be performed by me . the 〈◊〉 p●●p●sition , that the saints cannot attend upon the m●●●stry of england , without being partakers with them in thei● sin , will admit of a speedy dispu●●h two things are briefly to be enquired into . . what that , or those sins are , we suppose the ministers of england to be guilty of ? . how it will appear , that any person's amending upon their minist●y , renders him guilty of partaking with them therein . of the former we have already trea●●d , and proved , ( beyond what any are able to say to the contrary ) that they are guilty of the sins of worshipping god in a way that is not of his appointment ; of acting in the holy things of god , by vertue of an antichristian p●wer , office , or calling ; of opposing really the prophetical and kingly office of christ ; of using and conforming to modes and rites in worship , not appointed by the lord , that have been abused to ido●atry , &c. nor is it denied by our conforming brethren , but with some of these things , the present ministers of england may be justly charged : that they worship god after the way of the common prayer book , with modes and rites used in the papacy , cannot be denied : nor can their undue administration of that great ordinance of our lord jesus , of b●eaking bread to all , according to th● form therein prescribed ▪ that they are ordained , and some of them re-ordained by the episcopacy , is also known . i ask , are these things the sin and evil of th●se men , or are they not ? if they are not , why did not our preaching brethren receive the ordination from the bish●ps these received ? yea , why do not our half-conforming brethren attend upon the reading of the service used , joyn with them in the sacrament of the lords supper , as administred by them ? doth not their absenting themselves herefrom , abundantly demonstrate , that they in their consciences are perswaded , that , t is the sin and evil of the prese●t priests of england thus to act , and from such a mission , in the worship of the lord ? answ. the major proposition is granted : to what he saith he hath already proved , answer is made before , that the present ministers are justly charged by him ; or that they worship god with modes and rites popish ; that their b●eaking bread to all , according to the form prescribed , is undue ; or their ordination requires proof . the not receiving ordination , may be from another cause , than perswasion in conscience , that t is the sin and evil of the ministers , that they act by such a mission , perhaps they cannot subscribe to what is required . they may forbear the communion , not because ministers sin in not keeping back some , but because they scruple the gesture prescribed . here then is no proof of their sin , let 's see how , if it were granted , that they did sin , participation in their guilt is proved . as for the second , saith he , that the hearing the present ministers of england , is that which renders a man guilty of being partaker with them in their sin ; the consideration of the several wayes persons may be justly charged with being guilty of partaking with ●thers in their sin , will abundantly demonstrate the ▪ truth thereof . to instance in a few particulars : then may persons be justly cha●ged as guilty hereof . . when they are found any way consenting with th●m in their sin . ps. . . when thou sawest a thief , then thou consentedst with him : and hast been partaker with the adulterers . t is not the doing of the act , that was done by these wicked persons , that is here called , partaking with them , but a secret consenting with them therein . . when they do that which hath a real tendency to encourage persons in their sin . john . receive them not into your houses , bid them not god speed : for he that biddeth them god speed , is partaker of their evil deeds . . when they neglect the doing of those duties , which the lord requires at their hands , for the reclaiming of them from their sin ; such are watching over , rebuking , admonishing , first privately , then by two , and in case of obstinacy and perseverance therein , telling it to the church : which are duties eminently c●mprised in the ensuing scriptures , thes. . heb. . , . and . , . levit. . . mat. , , . . when they ( notwithstanding all that they have done , or can do , being under an utter incapacity of proceeding further therein ) perceive them to persevere in their sin , shall still continue to hold communion with them , and not separate from them · rev. . . come out of her , my people ; left being partakers of her sins , ye receive of her plagues . the abiding with obstinate persevering offenders ( as it is against positive injunctions of the most high , rom. . . cor. . , , , . tim. . . ephes. . , . rev. . . so is it in the last place instanc'd in ) assigned by the spirit to be one way of partaking with others in their sins . not to multiply more particulars , let us , in a few words , make application of these remarkes to the business in hand . is there any thing in the world , that carries a greater brightness and evidence with it , than this , that the hearing the present ministers of england , is to be partakers with them in their sin ? is not our so doing , a secret consenting with them , and encouraging of them in their evil deeds ? is this to discharge those duties incumbent upon us ( if we indeed look upon them as brethren ) for their reclaiming ? yea , is this to come out of , and separate from them ? what less ? so then , except it can be proved , that the particulars instanc'd in , are not some of those wayes , whereby persons do become guilty of partaking with other mens sins : or , that to attend upon the present ministers of england , is not what doth symbolize with some one , more , or all of them , ( which can never be done ) it evidently follows , that t is not lawful for saints to hear the present ministers of england , the doing whereof , is apparently a partaking with them in their evil deeds . answ. i grant , consent in sin , doing that which hath a real tendency to encourage persons in their sin , neglect of rebuking , admonishing , when they are our duty , makes us guilty of others sins . nor do i except against the texts brought to prove these , except that mat. . , , . which i have said before , in my answer to the preface of this book , sect . . is a rule , not of reproving all sorts of sins , but only of particular injuries ; and that telling the church , is not telling a particular separate congregation in the independent way , but such a number of brethren ( as may be fit to compose the difference ) above two or three : and that not of necessity , so as if the complainant did not do , it should be his sin ; but as of indulgence and conveniency , as being the way fittest to rectifie the offendor . the last way of partaking with other mens sins is not true , to wit , that if after admonition , and obstinacy of the offendor , we joyn in hearing the word of god , praying with him , receiving the lords supper , we are partakers with the minister that preacheth , prayeth or administers the lords supper , in his personal sins , such as are acting by an unlawful mission , or other , using a sinful irregular way in his calling : nor do the texts alleged prove it . the first , rom. . . is an admonition to them which cause divisions and offences , contrary to the doctrine they had learn●d , which is nothing to the avoiding of him , that teacheth the same doctrine that the apostles taught , because of his personal sins : it may more fitly be applyed against such as this author , who causeth divisions and offences by his doctrine of separation from them that hold and teach the true faith , which is contrary to the doctrine of st. pa●l , r●m . . , . the coming out from among infidels , being 〈…〉 not touching the unclean thing , that is , the idol , or un●ighteousness . cor. . , , , . is nothing to prove a separation from hearing , or joyning in prayer , or the communion , with a minister that preacheth the truth , prayes to god , in the name of christ , for things agreeable to gods will administers the lords supper in remembrance of christs death , because of his personal sins : partaking with a minister in these things , in this case , is not having fellowsh●p with the unfruitful works of darkness , or being partakers 〈◊〉 who●●mongers , or unclean persons , or covetous , idolaters , forbidden eph●s . . . it is nothing for , but against this authors pu●pose , which the apostle chargeth timothy , t●m . , , . that he should withdraw himself , that is , not 〈…〉 to himself in the work of the ministry , such as 〈◊〉 otherwise than st. paul had instructed timothy ; that consen● not to wh●lesome words , the words of our lord jesus christ 〈◊〉 the doctrine which is according to godliness . as for the last text though it be still in the mouths of the separatists , and is ridiculously applyed to every thing , that they call babylon , as bishops , common prayer , ministers of any party besides their own , tythes , at the last by the quintomonarchians , to all the p●esent rulers , so it is by this author often u●ged , still besides the purpose of the holy ghost , it being only a warning for the people of god to come out of rome , whether by local departure from the city , or by leaving the communion of the papacy in doctrine and worship , which is nothing to a separation from hearing , or joyning with the ministers in holy things , because of their personal sins . nevertheless , this author cracks of abundant demonstration ; and , as if nothing in the world carried a greater brightness and evidence with it , than this , that the hearing the present ministers of england , is , to be partakers with them in their sins : just as if one should say , he that heard judas preach the gospel , was partaker with him in his theft , which is more like the inference of a man crazed in his intellectuals , than a sober minded man but because some mens confident words prevail with some persons addi●ted to them , more than sound reason , let 's consider what brightness is in his application ▪ is not our so doing , saith he , a secret consenting with them , and encouraging of them in 〈◊〉 evil deeds ? marvellous brightness ! clear evidence ! no wonder he applauds himself like an archimedes , and cryes 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i have found , i have found the demonstra●●on ; and that his followers add their plaudite thereto 〈◊〉 we mo●●s do not see the brightness of this consequence ▪ a christian professor goes to hear a minister that preacheth the word of god truly , therefore he consents to his intrusion into his place ; he doth openly hear , therefore he doth secretly consent ; he applyes himself to learn the word of god from him , therefore he encourageth him in his evil deeds . it is too favourable a censure , to say , his argument is a baculo ad angulum as if a man argued , the staff stands in the corner , therefore it will rain to morrow ; he seems to me 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to speak contradictions . he that goes to hear him preach gods word , doth consent with him , that teacheth , in doing well , and encourage him to preach the truth ; not , as this author saith , in evil deeds : it may more truly be said , that this author , and other separatists , are guilty of sin , in not consenting with the preacher , but discouraging him in well doing . did not ministers heretofore , and perhaps this author , complain , that their auditories were thin , that good people withdrew from publique exercises to p●ivate meetings , that this was a discouragement to them in their work , and is it now to go hear them an encouragement in their evil deeds ? is not this to blow hot and cold with the same breath ? we silly ignaro's think , we ought not to discourage any who preach the truth of the gospel , be they episcopal , presbyterian , independent , antipaedobaptist , by our absence , or exceptions against him for his personal failings , but to countenance and encourage him by our presence and otherwise , and think we have the example of st paul , philip . . to warrant us therein , and marvel that such should argue thus , who blame them that silence good preachers ▪ for not assenting to the liturgy , not considering , , that they may thus argue , if we should permit the separatists to preach , we should consent secretly with them , and encourage them in their evil deeds , such as they conceive their gathering a separate congregation , and taking their mission from it , to be . yet we have more of this doughty demonstration , in a socratical way of disputing , by questioning , is this to discharge those duties incumbent upon us ( if we indeed look upon them as brethren ) for their reclaiming ? it seems it can hardly go down with this author , to call them brethren , their conformity hath unchristened them . but i answer , if it be not the discharging their duty , for the reclaiming them ( which as it is stated , would perhaps be rather their sin , than their duty ) yet it is to discharge their duty in hearing gods word , which is so farr from hindring them in the discharge of any duty incumbent on them , for the reclaiming of ministers from any sin , they are to reprove in them , that it rather fits them for it . for the hearing them , shews , they do not , as this author , count them their , or the lords enemies , which makes a reproof to be better taken , and is agreeable to the apostles rule , even when we shun the company of any that is unruly , to count him not as an enemy , but to admonish him as a brother , thes. . . but doth indeed this author think it the duty of every hearer , to reclaim , or else separate from every minister , that either enters into his ministry unduly , or doth not discharge his function as he should ? suppose a john de cluse is unduly made an elder , or a johnson excommanicate his brother and father rashly , an ainsworth disagree with johnson or robinson , about private communion with the members of the church of england , a wheel-wright vent antinomian errours , must every hearer reclaim them , or separate from them , or be guilty of their sin ? they that leave the church of england , to be in congregations of such principles , would find it to be matter of repentance : to avoid episcopal government , to be under popular , would be like tinkers work , to stop one hole and to make two ; under shew of better discipline , to introduce anarchy and confusion . but enough of answer to this wild argument , in which the author accuseth deeply , but brings no proof , only puts questions for proofs , and would have the defendant prove himself not guilty , when it concerned the accuser to prove his indictment . i hasten to the remainder . chap. . arg. . sect. . separation of some , from other christians , is no institution of christ. that the doing whereof doth cast contempt upon the wayes and institutions ( some or more of them ) of our lord jesus , and hardens persons in a false way of worship & rebellion against him , is utterly unlawful for the saints to do : but the hearing of the present ministers of england is that , the doing whereof doth cast contempt upon the wayes and institutions ( some one or more of them ) of our lord jesus , and hardens persons in a false way of worship and rebellion against him : therefore . the major is laid down in such full , clear and evident expressions , bottom'd upon scripture , and right reason , as carry a brightness with them , that none but such as are desperately and judiciously blinded , will or can gainsay . the minor ( or second proposition ) viz that the hearing of the present ministers of england , is the doing of that which doth cast contempt upon the wayes and institutions of our lord jesus , and hardens persons in a false way of worship and rebellion against him , is by our dissenting brethren gainsaid . answ. if the major be understood of real , and not only imaginary , and in the opinion of men ; of it self per se , and not by accident , through the prejudice or ill disposition of some persons , casting contempt and hardning ; the major is granted , and the minor denied : otherwise it is not granted . but let us attend the proof of the minor . three things , saith he , are therein asserted . . that our hearing these persons , is that which casts contempt upon the wayes and institutions of christ. ly . that it hardens persons in a false way of worship . ly . that it hardens and encourages souls in their rebellion against the lord. as for the first , a brief observation of some of the institutions of christ , clearly bottom'd upon the scripture , will abundantly evince its original to be from god. first then , that separation from the world , and men of the world ; from all wayes of false worship , and the inventions of men thereabout ; untill the saints of the most high be apparently a people dwelling alone , and not reckoned among the nations , ( however it be decryed , and found harsh in the ears of carnal men ) is one grand institution , a man may run and read in the following scriptures , numb . . . joh. . . cor. . , , , . ephes. . , . tim ▪ . . hos. . revel . . . prov. . . ( nor is it denied by some of our conforming brethren . ) answ. by the world , and men of the world , in opposition to the saints of the most high , are understood , such professed christians , as are not visible saints , able to give such an account of their conversion , and proof of their integrity , as the elders and members of a gathered church , in the congregational way , are satisfied with , to be sufficient for their admission into their church : or that enter not into church ▪ covenant , explicite or implicite : and dwelling alone , is meant either of joyning alone with such a church in hearing , praying , and sacraments ; or of dwelling alone in their habitations . not being reckoned among the nations , may be understood , either of not being members of a national or parochial chureh , or not under a national government , whether ecclesiastical or civil ; or not taking upon them an● offices or employments in either such church or common-wealth . in none of these senses ▪ is the proposition proved , by any of the texts alleged concerning the first part of the separation from the world , or men of the world ; but the proposition is both false and dangerous . the first text , numb . is only a prophesie of balaam , concerning the people of israel after the flesh , that they should dwell alone , and not be reckoned among the nations , to inferr thence , any of his sorts of separation , to be the institutions of christ , concerning the christian churches , is without any shew of reason ; it might yield better proof , for a national church christian , against this author , if any institution of christ , concerning the ch●istian church visible , could be thence deduced . john . . christ saith to his disciples , if ye were of the world , the world would love his own : but because ye are not of the world , but i have chosen you out of the world , therefore the world hateth you . and it is true , that the saints of the most high are not of the world , that is , that party that are opposite to christ , that hate him , and the profession of his name , and accordingly hate them that are for christ , as v. . shews ; but that , by the world , is meant , a national or parochial church , or national state , common wealth , kingdom , city , or house , as such , because of the mixture of good and bad , is most false . it is true , that christ chose the apostles , and other christians , out of the world , by his calling , by the gospel , and the work of his spirit , that they might not be united to the world , in their enmity against him , or his word ; but be a peculiar people to himself , zealous of good works : not by any institution to separate themselves from other christians by profession , into a congregational church , contra-distinct from national , or parochial , in the episcopal , or presbyterian way of discipline , by an explicite or implicite church covenant ; or into a plantation or body politick or oeconomick , independent on any civil government or governours of the nations . cor. . , , . or rather . ( for . is the last v. of that chapter ) hath been , and so have ephes. . , . rev. . . in the last section of the answer to the th chapter , shewed to be impertinently alleged , for proof of such a separation as is here meant . nor is it proved , tim. . . but it is a precept for timothy to turn away , either in respect of arbitrary society , or in respect of associating with such , as are there described , in the work of the ministry , or other employment , as , wherein they would be either treacherous to him , or a hinderance , or a blot to him hos ▪ . . is only a precept unto judah , of not being idolatrous as israel . prov. . . is a precept , advising men in prudence , that they go from the presence of a foolish man , when they perceive not in him the lips of knowledge . to allege texts , so farr from the proving of what they are brought for , shews rather a mind willing to cheat honest and weak people , than any regard to truth or honesty . and , as i said , the position is false . for it supposeth christ to have instituted such a separation , as he hath told us in sundry parables , shall not be till the end of the world , matth. . , , . such as neither christ , in the seven epistles to the seven churches of asia , nor st. paul in that to the corinthians , or any other , ever urged : such as never was attempted , but it was judged schismatical , and proved unhappy in the conclusion : and it is dangerous , sith it puts persons upon withdrawing their subjection , not only from ecclesiastical rulers , but also from civil and houshold rulers , that are counted the world , or men of the world , that they may be a people dwelling alone , and not reckoned among the nations ; which would overthrow also all states , bodies politick , and houshold government , and is contrary to rom. . . cor. . , . it is added . sect. . meeting of separated christians , as a distinct body , is not christs institution . secondly , that saints separate from the world , should frequently meet tog●ther , as a distinct body therefrom , for the edification and building up of each other in the way and will of god , according to the gifts bestowed upon them , is so evidently asserted , as the institution of our alone king and law-giver in the scripture , that it cannot be gainsaid , mal . . thes . . heb. . jude . heb. . , . cor. . . acts . . & . . ephes . . james . . thes. . . answ. it is granted , that saints separated from the world , that is , professed unbelievers , should frequently meet for the ed●fication and building up of each other in the way and will of god : but it is neither agreeable to scripture , nor allowable , that one party of christians should call another part of christians , the world , and the men of the world , who own the true faith of god , and worship him , because they are not of the same way of church-government and worship : nor is it either in the scriptures alleged , or any other , that such should meet as a distinct body from other christians , holding the true faith , and worshipping the true god in christ , as if they were a severed body from other christians . the separatists , i think , do not rebaptize , but hold baptism in the church of england , as being into the universal church , right ; so in the brownists apology , p. . robinsons justification against bernard , p. . and else-where : which , if this author hold , he must hold , that the saints of the gathered churches are one body with other christians , according to that of st. paul , ephes. . , . there is one body , and one spirit , even as ye are called in one hope of your calling ; one lord , one faith , one baptism , one god and father of all , who is ab●ve all , and through all , and in you all . cor· , . for as the body is one , and hath many members , and all the members of that one body , being many , are one body : so also is christ. for by one spirit we are all baptized into one body , whether we be jews or gentiles , whether we be bond or free . and therefore it is against the institution of christ , that christians of one profession in point of discipline and worship , should meet as a distinct body , separate from other christians of different perswasions , unless there were another faith , lord , baptism , god , whom they worship . nor do the texts justifie such separate meetings : not mal. . . in which is mention of speaking one to another , but not as a distinct body from other believers . the same may be said of thes. . . heb. . , . jude . the assemblies heb. . , . were not meetings of a distinct body from other believers , but from hebrew infidels . cor. . . or rather , it speaks of gifts given to profit withall , but not of meeting , much less as a distinct body from other believers acts ▪ . mentions a meeting for prayer , but not as a distinct body from other believers . acts . . ephes. . . james . . thes. . . mentions employing of gifts for our own and others good , not a church meeting , as a distinct body from other christians . it follows , sect. . separated congregational churches , in opposition to national , are not of christs institution . thirdly , that particular congregations or assemblies of believers , gathered into one body , for the celebration of the worship of god , ( in opposition to any national church or churches whatsoever ) is of the appointment of christ , is alike evident as the former , act. . , . & . . & . . & . . & . . & . , . cor. . & . . act. . . cor. . . rom. . . cor. . . gal. . . acts . , . & . . cor. . ▪ & . , . , cor. . . rev. . , , . answ. in these texts there is mention made of churches , where the christians in different cities , or in a province are mentioned ; and of the church , where christians of one city are mentioned ; though it be made a question , whether the church , acts . & . . be not a provincial church : but that this proves an appointment of christ , that the assemblies of believers , gathered into one body , for the celebration of the worship of god , by their voluntary agreement , under pastours of their own choice , in opposition to any national church or churches whatsoever , should be accounted the only lawful and regular churches of christ , appears not ▪ for there is no mention , in any of the texts , of any institution of christ , or his apostles : but only thence may be gathered ▪ that it was then the manner of speech , to call the christians that dwelt together in one town , the church of such a place ; though it is probable they were not gathered into one body or congregation , for the celebration of the worship of god , under select officers : but that they were called the church of such a city , as that of jerusalem , from their habitation , where they had many meetings from house to house , for celebration of the worship of god ; as from acts . , . and other places , was gathered by the presbyterians , in their answer to the dissenting brethren . nor was then any such distinction of congregations of christians , as that in one city , as the independents in london , and elsewhere , did distinguish them ; such a number should belong to such a pastour , and be termed his church ; and another number be another church in the same city ; but the elders of the christians in jerusalem , are termed , the elders of the church there , acts . , . & . . not one an elder of one part , & another of another part . sometimes there is mention made of the church in the house of such persons , cor. . . rom. . . philem. . and yet this proves not , that particular congregations or assemblies of believers , gathered into one body in a house , for the celebration of the worship , in opposition to any city , church or churches whatsoever , is of the appointment of christ ; and therefore no such appointment of christ , as here is asserted , can be gathered from the phrase of calling the christians in one city , the church there ; the christians in a province or nation , the churches . a national or universal church , may be as well collected from cor. . where it is said , god hath set some in the church , first apostles , secondarily prophets , thirdly teachers , sith the apostles were for the universal church : but for my part , i conceive the distinction of churches only prudential , not by any constitution of christ , or his apostles . and that however mr. rob●r●s●n in his catechism , mr. cotton in his way of the churches of new-england , have put it into their definitions of the visible church , that it consists of so many , as may meet every lords-day , for all ordinances : and mr , norton in his answer to apollonius , ch . . makes such a church , the only lawful political church : and this hath been continually inculcated , that it is necessary , that every person be in such a particular instituted church , and that is the fi●st seat of ecclesiastical power , alleging matth. . & . . to that purpose , and build thereupon their separation . yet i never judged , either the allegation of those texts , to be pertinent , to that they produce them for ; or that such conclusions as they gather from them , about the constitution and power of a congregational church , or the necessity of being a member in such a church , so formed , are rightly deduced . but of this i need say no more , than what is said in answer to the preface of this book , sect . . and else-where . sect. . to attend only on the ministry of ministers of congregational churches , is not of christs appointment . f●u●thly , saith this author , that christ hath appointed officers of his own , to act in the holy things of god , in and over th●se assemblies , whom he furnisheth with gifts every way suiting their employment , to whom , without turning aside to the voice of strangers , or attending upon the ministry of such as are not of his appointment , it s the duty of saints to hearken , is very conspi●uous in the ensuing scriptures , ephes. . . heb. . , mat. . , . . , joh. . . & . . joh acts . , , . revel . . , , . which exactly agrees with what was practised by primitive believers , who it seems received none , without the testimony of some brethren of known integrity in the churches , cor. . . acts . . answ. it is true , that christ hath appointed officers of his own , to act in the holy things of god , in and over the churches , and that he furnished them with gifts every way suiting their imployment , when he ascended up on high ; and this may be proved from ephes. . . and that such officers , as may gather and perfect his churches , are of his appointment , and that we are to follow and obey them , heb. . . . and that we are not to hear or attend upon the ministry of such strangers as are deceivers , false teachers , antichrists , that bring not the same doctrine with the apostles , that are false prophets , speak perverse things , nicolaitans , that teach the doctrine of balaam , as the texts alleadged do import ; and that s. paul sent alms to jerusalem by such messengers as the corinthians approved ; that s. paul was not at first admitted into society with the disciples , till barnabas brought him to the apostles , and informed them of his conversion . but that christ hath appointed officers onely in and over particular congregational churches , or that they onely , who are chosen by such a church , are his officers , or that they are furnished by christ with gifts every way suiting their imployment , as when he ascended up on high ; or that all other ministers or preachers are strangers , not of christs appointment , or that the saints are not to attend on their ministry , or that hearing them is turning aside to the voice of strangers , or that none is to be admitted to preach , or to communion in a congregational church , or to be heard preach , but such as have had testimony of some brethren of known integrity in the gathered churches , are not in the texts alleadged , nor in any other part of the holy seripture : but these tenents and rules of the congregational churches , although the things may be observed in many cases , as agreeing with the state of churches at some times , and in prudence may be commended ; yet to make them institutions of christ necessary to be observed at all times , and no other orders different from these lawful , but rather antichristian , is an humane invention , and no better then superstition , which this authour and other separatists do so much inveigh against . and indeed to injoyn christians members of a congregational church , or other christians to hear onely such officers , is both against the doctrine and practise approved in the scripture , against the practise of the congregational churches themselves , and if it be urged rigidly according to this principle of this authour , puts such a yoke of bondage on the consciences of christians , as is intolerable and pernicious . for . the ministers of the gospel are according to christs design , for the benefit of all christians , not appropriate to this or that particular number of men , so as not to act as ministers of his appointment , but in particular gathered churches . it may be requisite perhaps for good order and government , to assign particular places to them , and this is of divine and apostolical institution , that in particular churches there should be pastors and elders , and that they should be bound to be resident with them , and to feed them : but that no other then such should be officers of christ , is not proved ; if there be not apostles , prophets or evangelists now , as were in the primitive times , yet i presume none will deny , that men may be officers of christ , that are assigned to no particular charge ; as lecturers , catechists , readers in the universities , members of synods , commissioners for setling churches in discipline , for approbation of preachers , and the like ; and they , being for the benefit of the church of god , either in common , or more specially for some place , may be heard , or else the end of christ in giving them should be frustrate . this i gather partly from the expressions cor. . . that not onely apostles and prophets , but also teachers are set by god in the church indefinitely , not in this or that definite church , and pastors and teachers as well as apostles , prophets and evangelists , are given by christ , ephes. . . for the perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministry , for the edifying of the body of christ , without the determinate assignation of some saints , or some part of the body , but making them his gift to any saints , or any part of the body which his providence shall order ; partly , and chiefly , in that s. paul counts it sinful glorying in men , to appropriate this or that teacher as peculiar to some , and that because paul , and apollos , and cephas , and by the same reason every minister was every christians , in that every christian was christs , and he gods cor. . . so that however , every of them cannot be every christians in use , so as that he should have jus in re , yet every christian hath a title to every minister , or jus ad rem , and therefore to say none are christs officers , but such as are in the co●g●egational churches , and over them , and to attend on the ministry of others , is to turn aside to the voice of strangers , is to deprive christians of the right god gives them to all the ministers , and tends to that glo●ying in men whch the apostle condemns . . we find , that apollos , said to be a minister by whom the corinthians believed , whom paul planted , and apollos watered ▪ cor. . , . was a diligent teacher of the things of the lord at ephesus , and he disdained not to be instructed in the way of the lord more perfectly by aquila and priscilla , acts . , . who are also termed st. pauls 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , fellow-labourers in the lord , rom. . . which proves , that christians did and might hear others , besides officers of particular instituted churches ; yea that they might and did make use of the gifts of any , though a woman , that could expound to them the way of the lord. . that this is against the practise of the congregational churches , who do allow the hearing of gifted brethren that are not officers , who send preachers to convert the natives , such as mr. eliat , mr. mayhew , who yet are no officers to them , who hear the pastors of other congregations , than those of which they are members ; which is not agreeable to this authours principle ▪ that other than their own officers are strangers to them ; and if it be , as some have delivered , that the ministry is limited to that church , to which he is pastor , he cannot preach as a minister , when they hear him , nor they hear him under that consideration ; and if a minister be an officer onely to the people who chose him , and they are bound to attend on his ministery who chose him , and not others , then a minister ceaseth to be a minister when his electors are dead , or removed ; they that choose him not , though he be elected by the major part , are not to take him for their minister , nor may hear him , sith his voice is the voice of a stranger . . to be tied to attend on such mens ministery , and not to have liberty to hear others , puts an yoke of bondage intolerable and pernicious on mens consciences . . in that in case the minister become empty , or erroneous , yet being his minister , and the major part adhere to him , he must also attend on his ministery , who is weary of it , and may not use the benefit of anothers ministry more sound and profitable , no , not though it be of great consequence for the finding out the truth , in that he doubts ; which is an art like to the practise of the papists , who will allow none of their church to hear protestant preachers , or confer with them , or read their books , lest their errours should be detected . thus it might come to pass , that if mr. ainsworth deliver errour , his people might not go to hear mr. paget in the same town , who might discover his errour ; and there is the same reason concerning any in england , as in london , a minister to an independent church must be heard , though a man of mean abilities , and perhaps an antinomian , and none other , though a neighbour , godly , learned conformist preach truth profitably near to him . . in case a member of a separated church , as a woman removed with her husband from london into the countrey , far from her pastour , have a godly learned able teacher , who is a conformist near her , and no other , she must not hear him , because a stranger , none of christs officers , but must rather live without the benefit of the publique ordinance , though it be to the great decay of that spiritual life , heat and vigour in godliness , which she once had . these , and more evil consequences attend the position of this authour , that those onely who are christs officers in his sense are to be heard . yet he goes on thus : sect. . hearing the present ministers casts no contempt on christs institutions . not to mention more , let it be weighed , whether the hearing of the present ministers of england , doth not cast contempt upon these institutions of christ. what is more evidently preached by such a practise , than . that separation from the assemblies of england ( ' though in their constitution carnal and worldly ) and the worship thereof ( although false , and meerly of humane invention ) was , and is our sin and evil . dly , that it 's not by vertue of any soveraign institution of christ , the duty of saints to meet together as a body distinct ( without going out to other assemblies to worship with them ) for their mutual edification in the lord. dly , that particular assemblies are not solely of the institution of the lord jesus , but that national are also to be accounted as the true churches of christ ( though they have no footing in the scripture of the new testament , from whence the pattern of gospel-churches is solely to be deduced ) yea thly , that the officers of christs appointment are not sufficient for the saints ; but together with them , the help of false and idol-shepherds is to be sought after , than which , what greater contempt can be poured upon the forementioned institutions of our dear lord ? yet who sees not all this to be the language which is heard , and goes forth into the nations , from the practise of our brethren in the matter we are debating ? if they look upon separation in the sense before minded , to be of the institution of christ , can th●y offer a greater affront thereunto , than to run into the assemblies of the nation ? if they judge it their duty to meet together distinct from the world and it's worshippers , why run they thereunto ? if they apprehend national churches to be the result of humane prudence , without bottom in the scripture , and the ministers of christ to be onely ( in contradistinction to the ministers that are not of his appointment ) attended unto ; why give they the right hand of fellowship unto such assemblies , as profess themselves to be parts of such a national church , and hear ministers that have relation thereunto ? who have received ( as hath been proved ) no mission from christ to their ministry . if this be not evidently to pour contempt upon the institutions of christ , and confessedly so , we shall for ever despair of success in the most facile and righteous undertaking . answ. i acknowledge that he who granteth your premisses , cannot deny your conclusion : but none , but dissemblers , will attend on the ministry of the present ministers , and hold the assemblies of england in their constitution , carnal and worldly , and the worship thereof false , and meerly of humane invention ; that the members of the assemblies of the english church , are the world in contradistinction to the saints ; that they are the worshippers of the world , not of the true churches of christ ; that the ministers are false and idol-shepherds , who have received no mission from christ to their ministry . by this answer this authour may perceive , that these charges are judged false criminations , not at all proved by him ; nor are those things granted to be institutions of christ , which he makes such : and therefore if the practise of going to the parish-assemblies be a casting contempt on his way , it is not on christs institutions , but his unjustifiable separation . and yet the truth is , our hearing the present ministers , is for the performance of our own duty ; that we may hear the word of god , and worship god truly ; and our doing this we account not any approbation of any thing evil in the ministers , or giving the right hand of fellowship to the assemblies in any thing that is disorderly . nor do we condemn any thing but their sin , in the separated meetings , whose separation we declare against , although we should not think it evil to hear their ministers preach the word of god , or to worship god with them . we are of opinion that it is a gross errour , which is often in the mouths of separatists , that they may not hear with the world , nor pray with the world ; whence it hath come to pass , that some have left off praying in their families , catechizing their children , instructing their servants , unless members of their churches ; which tends to bring in irreligion and profaneness , and is contrary to the precepts of scripture , ephes. . . deut. . , &c. contrary to the practise of christ and his disciples , who heard christ preach with the scribes and pharisees , praised god with the multitude , even the children , christ approving it , luk. . , . matth. . . , . and however we approve not any evil in the ministers , or their ministration , nor do assent to any unfitting thing therein , yet we rejoyce that gods word is taught , and his name invocated in any company by any persons , and think we have the apostles example to warrant us , philip. . and do wish , that god would not lay to the separatists charge , besides other sins ( which we think are nor a few in these withdrawings from communion , and invectives ) their ingratitude for that benefit others have , and they might have , from that ministry they so much oppose . if this authour , or those of his way suffer contempt , reproach , and hard usage , though we wish it may not be , yet it may be told them , that not christs institutions are contemned , but their own intemperate carriage is rebuked ; which is not likely ever to succeed well , but to be a hindrance to the work of christ , and the peace of his church . yet this authour proceeds . sect. . hearing the present ministers , hardens none in sin . as for the second particular , that hereby poor souls are hardned in a false way of worship , what can be thought less ? ( supposing the worship in the parish-assemblies of england to be so , as hath been proved ) when they shall see professors , that were wont to pray and preach together , to profess and protest against common-prayer-book priests , and worship , to cry up , or at least approve of , laws made for their ejection , if guilty of no other crime than conformity to the worship they now conform to and practise , now stock unto their assemblies and bear their priests : what can they imagine less , than that these persons , thus acting in a direct contrariety to their former judgement and practice , do now see they were mistaken ? and are beginning at least , to return unto those paths from whence they departed , and that these ways in which they and their forefathers have walked , are the good old way in which rest is to be found ? wo unto the world because of offences , wo also unto them by whom they come . answ. the hearing the present ministers to be no false way of worship , is that which is now asserted , the contrary is not yet proved by this authour . they who are chargeable with former miscarriages , are to answer for themselves : the hearing the present ministers , which is defended as lawful , is not justly offensive , nor for it onely do men fear the doom of scandalizers . it is added . nor is the d particular , viz. that hereby poor souls are hardened in their rebellion and blasphemy against god , the spirit , his tabernacle , and them that dwell therein , to be in the least questioned : we every day hear to the breaking of our hearts stout words spoken against the lord , because of the practise of some in this thing . what say the wicked of the world less , than that religion , which many pretend to , is but a fancy , that the professors thereof are but a generation of hypocrites , that will turn to any thing to save themselves ; that the spirit by which they are acted , is but a spirit of phanaticism and delusion ! yea how do they bless themselves that they are not , nor ever were ( and resolve so much more , they will never be ) of the number of such professors ! ask them a reason of all this , and they wonder you should ask them , and speedily reply to you , do you not see how many of you , for fear of persecution , have deserted your former principles , and are returned to our assemblies , and the ministry thereof , and that any of you stand out ( 't is from hence evident ) that it is from a spirit of pride and obstinacy , and not , as you pretend , from divine tenderness , and the leadings of the spirit of the lord ? and what can we say to all these things ? must we not with grief and sorrow confess , that there is indeed too great an occasion administred to them for their thus speaking , though this will be no plea for them in the day of christ. blessed are they that are not offended in him . it remaineth then , that inasmuch as the hearing the present ministers of england , pours out contempt upon the ways and institutions of christ , hardens persons in a false w●y of worship , rebellion and blasphemy against the lord : it 's utterly unlawful for saints to be found in the practice thereof . answ. such kind of consequences as these are incident to persons of any party , who have been earnest for that , whch after they have relinquished : so have papists insulted over protestants , upon the returning of any seeming zealous protestant into the roman church . if my memory fail me not , the authour of fiat lux imputes the like things to protestants , upon the coming over of some to their party : yet the answerer , and others , know how , in that and the like cases to reply to such , that mens instability shews their own weakness , not the thing in which they have been zealous to have been either good or bad ▪ that any take advantage from their fact to harden themselves ▪ it is by accident , not from the nature of their action , if it were good and lawful otherwise ; that in such cases men are not to condemn or commend the thing which is done , because of the actions of the person , but to examine things by the rule , which is the onely remedy against such events . it is true , that it is just cause of mourning and dejection , when such things happen : but not to measure truth or falshood by such motives and considerations , nor conclude a thing to be evil , because of such accidents . to which i add , that this authour doth not well to call the obloquies against his party , speaking against religion , blaspheming god , the spirit , tabernacle , and them that dwell therein ; whose ways may be reproached by reason of their zeal for their way , and yet no reproach to god , his spirit , religion , tabernacle , and the indwellers . it would be more for their benefit , if he , and others of his mind , and others who have occasioned such blasphemies against religion did excu●●re semetipsos search themselves , whether their own present violence of spirit , unpeaceableness out of pretended zeal for god , or their and others now conforming intemperate heat , have not opened the mouths of adversaries , and if they have to be humbled for it , as david was when s●imei curst him , and so make advantage of an opposite persons enmity , to amend themselves . and indeed it were very unequal that we should either be afraid to do a thing because of clamours , or continue in that which we cannot justifie , because mens mouths will be opened against us , and perhaps hardened in their own way . such kind of blasphemies as they are termed , are vented against non-conformists , sep●ratists , as turbulent persons , and yet this author would not have it thought that they by their course harden poor so●ls in rebellion and blasphemy against god. why then doth he charge this upon the conformists as an argument by it self , as if it po●red contempt , and hardened others , and not impute the same to his own way ? but he tells us , sect. . gods people are not called out of the temples in england , as places of false worship . to all that hitherto hath been said , we shall yet briefly add argument . god calls his people out of , and strictly chargeth them , not to go to the places of false worship : therefore 't is unlawful for the saints to attend upon the present ministers of england . the antecedent is clearly proved , hos. . . amos . . the reason of the consequence is , because we cannot go to hear the present ministers of england , without we go to their places and assemblies of false worship ( as the common-prayer-book-worship hath been proved to be . ) answ. this argument proceeds upon the opinion of the rigid separatists termed brownists , who in their apology p. . . have this as their twelfth position , that all monuments of idolatry in garments , or any other things , all temples , altars , chappels , and other places dedicated heretofore by the heathens or antichristians , to their false worship , ought by lawful authority to be rased and abolished ; not suffered to remain for nourishing superstition ; much less imployed to the true worship of god. exod. . , , . & . . esa. . . gen. . , , . deut. . , , , . & , , , . kings . , , . and . , & . , , , . chron. . . acts . & . , . jude v. . with lev. . , , . rev. . . & ▪ , , &c. which is asserted by mr. ainsworth in his answer to mr. bernard about the twelfth article , page . and in his letters to mr. john paget , and since by mr. robinson , in his justification of the separation from the church of england , against mr. bernard , about the twelfth and last errour imputed to them , p. . p. . where he writes thus : i see not , but as the religion of the papists , in the opposition it hath to christianity , is rightly called antichristianism , so the religion of the ten tribes , in the opposition it had to the law given by moses , may fitly be called antijudaism . and for the baalims then and there worshipped , they were even as the lesser gods at this day , which are called patrons among the papists . the devil , to the end he might bring in again the old idolatry , craftily borrowing the names of the apostles and martyrs , by whom it was in former times overthrown and driven away : and by this means it hath put on another person , that it might not be known . whereupon it followeth by proportion , that as the temples , altars , and high places for those baalims , and other idols , were by godly kings to be raced down and taken away , and no way to be imployed to the true worship of god so are the temples ( with their appurtenances ) built to the virgin mary , peter , paul , and the rest , though true saints , yet the papists false gods , and very baalims , to be demolished and overthrown by the same lawful authority ; and in the mean while as execrable things to be avoided by them , which have none authority to deface or demolish them . p. . the moral equity of those commandments in the old testament , touching the demolition and subversion of idolatrous temples , and other the like superstitious monuments , doth as well bind now as then . which commandments are also in effect renewed in the new testament , where the faithful are charged to touch none unclean thing , cor. . . to keep themselves from idols , john . . which they cannot do , except they keep themselves from their appertenances : to hate even the garment spotted by the flesh , jude . not to receive the least mark of the beast , revel . . . but to go out of babylon , revel . . . which is also called sodom and egypt spiritually , as for the other sins reigning in her , so for her idolatry amongst the rest . from whence it is , that many at this day term the temples the high places , decline them , bury not in churchyards , with other actions of separation , in speech and gesture opposite to what other protestants conform to . and , though the chief leaders of the congrestational churches not long ago did preach and hear in the publique temples in england , yet it seems this authour now holds it unlawful to attend upon the present ministers of england , not onely because of their calling and worship , but also because of the places in which it is performed ; and therefore seems to revive the controversie about the use of places once polluted by idolatry . concerning which i shall not need to answer what either the brownists in their apology , or mr. robinson hath said about this point , the thing being so fully argued , and the arguments of mr. ainsworth and others , answered by mr. john paget in his arrow against the separation of the brownists , from chap. . to the end of the book ; wherein the supposed moral equity of those judicial laws is shewed not to be such , and that it is a great derogation from the benefit of the gospel purchased by christ's death , to intangle the consciences of christians with such jewish opinions , as if any creature were now polluted by paganish or popish idolatry , as that it might not now be enjoyed by christians , and imployed for god ▪ contrary to what the apostle determines concerning meat offered to an idol , cor. . , , , , , . tim. . . nor do any of mr. robinsons texts serve for the purpose he brings them : cor. , . the unclean thing not to be touched , is not the place where idols have been worshipped , but the idol it self , v. . which , by going to places heretofore abused to idolatry , but now the idol and it's worship is removed , and the living and onely true god onely served , is not touched in the apostles sense : but then onely , when the idol is kissed , adored , or otherwise worshipped . they who joyn not in any idol-service or honour , keep themselves from idols , as is required , john . . although they go to the places heretofore abused to idolatry : the garments spotted by the flesh , however it allude to legal pollution , yet it is not meant of material garments , as belonging to an idol ; but by it is meant , any tokens or means of sinful lusts ; revel . . . and . . have been often shewed to be so impertinently alleadged against the actions of protestants , which are done in opposition to popery , that it is a wonder , that men pretending tenderness of conscience , should be so impudent as still to accuse protestants as receiving the mark of the beast , and staying in babylon , even for that for which the holy martyrs died in opposition to popery . but if it be true which mr. paget hath in his arrow p. . mr. robinson was not constant to this opinion . as for what this authour saith , the common-prayer-book-worship is proved by him to be false worship , it hath been shewed not to be true in the answer to all he saith here . yet were there some superstition in the worship prescribed in the common prayer book , it is not sufficient to make the places , in which the present ministers and people meet , places or assemblies of false worship , every corruption in gods worship not making the place or assembly to be a place or assembly of false worship , as is manifest , both in the case of the sin of hophni , sam. . . of the corinthians , cor. . , , . & . . nor if the places and assemblies were for some corruption , yet were it necessary to go out of them , except they were idolatrous . for so were the going up to gilgal , bethaven , or bethel forbidden , hos. . . amos . . to offer sacrifice to the calves set up by jeroboam ; which therefore prove not going to a place of false worship to be forbidden , except it be idolatrous , and to joyn in that worship ; and therefore the antecedent of this authours argument is denied , if it be meant of false worship , that is not idolatrous . gods people were required to go to the temple at jerusalem after it had been defiled with idolatry , and the idol removed ; and even then when corpuptions of buying and selling there , and will-worship was in sundry things continued there , yet our lord christ himself went up to the temple at jerusalem . the consequence also is denied , it being false , that we cannot go to hear the present ministers of england , without we go to their places and assemblies of false worship . to which i add , that this is contrary to our saviours doctrine , john . , , . to tie men to worship onely in the place and assembly of the separated churches , and contrary to s. pauls doctrine , tim. . . to forbid any to worship god in any place ; and therefore herein this authour , and such separatists as are of his mind , are guilty of judaizing . but he goeth on thus : sect. . there is ground to expect a blessing in hearing the present ministers . argument . that , upon the doing whereof saints have no promise of a blessing , nor any ground to expect it , is not lawful for them to do . but in the hearing of these men , the saints have no promise of a blessing , nor ground to expect it . therefore , the major ( or first proposition ) will not be denied . as for the minor ( or second proposition ) that the saints have no promise of a blessing from god , nor ground to expect it , in the hearing of the present ministers of england , may many ways be demonstrated . if there be any promise of a blessing upon them from god , in their so doing , let it be produced , and we shall willingly confess , there is no weight in this argument : but this we conceive to be no easie task for any to discharge , and that for these reasons : . the blessing of the lord is upon sion , psal. . . & . . there he dwells , psal. . . & . . jer. . . isa. . . joel . . . the presence of christ is in the midst of the golden candlesticks , rev. . . & . ▪ 't is his garden in which he feedeth and dwells , cant. . . & . . and we are not surer of any thing ( nor will it be denied by our conforming brethren ) ( many of them ) tha● we are of this , that the assemblies of england , in their present constitution , are so far from being the sion of god , his candlestick , his garden , that they are a very wilderness , and that babel out of which the lord commands his people to hasten their escape , revel . . . . god never promiseth a blessing to a people waiting upon him in that way which is polluted , and not of his appointment , as we have proved the worship of england to be . ▪ the lord hath expresly said concerning such as run before they are sent , that they shall not profit the people , jer. . . . the lord protesteth , that such as refuse to obey his calls , to come out of babylon , shall partake of her plagues , revel . . . . where the lord is not in respect of his special presence and grace , there is no ground to expect any blessing ; but god is not so in the midst of the parochial assemblies of england . where are the souls that are converted , comforted , strengthened , stablished , that are waiting at the● doors of their house ? though many will not see it , yet a● sad spirit of withering , and visible decaies is to be found upon many that are waiting upon the teachings of the ministers of this day : and we hope the lord will in mercy , cause those that are indeed his , to see it , that they may remember from ▪ whence they have fallen , repent , do their first works , and watch to strengthen the things that remain , that are ready to die , for god hath not found their works perfect before him . answ. blessings are of many sorts : any good in general , yea any immunity or freedom from evil , is a blessing in a large sense ; but in a strict sense , that onely is called a blessing , which is the conferring of some special good , whether temporal or eternal , corporal or , spiritual . in the former sense the major is true . it is not lawful for the saints to do that which there is no promise of good to them upon doing it , nor ground to expect that the person shall not be punished for it . but if it be meant of good , as of long life to the honouring of parents , eternal life to believing on christ , there are many things the saints have no promise of special good to be conferred on them for doing them , nor ground to expect any such blessing , but what is common to all men , and yet the thing is lawful to be done by them , as eating and drinking for their sustenance , buying and selling , planting , building , &c. common to other men with them , and in this strict sense ( in which this authour takes it ) the major is not true : ezekiel preached lawfully when he was told israel would not hearken , ezek. . , . and jonah , when he thought nineveh would not repent , jonah . . but to wave this exception , the minor is not true : i assert the saints have a promise of spiritual blessing by hearing these men , while they preach the gospel , as much as any preachers in the congregational churches , isa. . . hear and your soul shall live . luke . . blessed are they that hear the word of god , and keep it , are promises made to them that hear the prelatical preachers , as well as to those of the separated churches , while they preach the same word of god : the promise being not made to the hearing of the men because of their personal qualities , their church-relation , or any such consideration extrinsecal to the faithful discharge of the work of preaching , but to the teaching of gods word : in hearing of which men have been blessed , though the teachers themselves had no blessing , the hearers have been saved , when the preachers themselves have been castaways , as s. paul speaks . and if we look to experience of former times , there is ground now to expect a blessing fro● conforming preachers , as well , or rather more , then from preachers of the separated churches . sure the conversion , consolation , strengthening , establishing of souls in the truth , ha●h been more in england from preachers , who were enemies to separation , whether non-conformists to ceremonies , or conformists presbyterial or episcopal , even from bishops themselves , then from the best of the separaratists . i think all that are acquainted with the history of things in this last age , will acknowledge that more good hath been to the souls of men by the preaching of usher , potter , abbot , jewel , and some other bishops , by preston , sibs , taylour , whately , hildersham , ball , perkins , dod , stock , and many thousands adversaries to the separated churches , then ever was done by ainsworth , johnson , robinson , rigid separatists , or cotton , thomas hooker and others ( though men of precious memory ) promoters of the way of the churches congregational . and therefore if the bishops , and conforming preachers now apply themselves ( as we hope when the heat of contention is more allayed , they will ) to the profitable way of preaching against popery and profaneness , exciting auditors to the life of faith in christ , duties of holiness towards god not onely in publique , but also in private families , and righteousness , love , peace towards men , there may be as good ground ▪ if not better ( considering how much the spirits of separatists are for their party , and the speaking of the truth in love , edifying in love is necessary to the growth of the body , ephes. . , . ) to expect by them a blessing in promoting the power of godliness than from separatists . and as for this authours reasons to the contrary , the first of them is from a fond application of what is said of gods dwelling in sion ( which is meant of the special presence there , in that his temple and service was upon that hill in the time of the old testament ) to the congregational churches , as if gods blessing were appropriated to them , and excluded from the assemblies of england , they were not the sion of god in their present constitution , nor christs candlestick , or garden in which he walks ▪ but a wilderness , that babel , revel . . . and saith , we are not surer of any thing than we are of this ; which if true , it is an article of his creed ▪ of which he is as sure as that jesus is the christ. but he gives no proof of it ▪ to assure us of it , but that we may take him to be phrenetick , or to be in a dream ; and , notwithstanding his confidence , he can make no better proof of this then the romanists can for the new article of their creed , subesse romano pontifici , est de necessitate ad salutem . it is indeed said , heb. . . that the hebrew christians were come to mount sion , in opposition to mount sinai , that is to say ( say the annot. ) to the church under the gospel , as gal. . . whereof mount sion was a type , psal. . . & . esa ▪ . . and where the gospel was first proclaimed without that terrour wherewith the law was delivered , esa. . . but why the assemblies of england should not be the sion of god as well as the separated churches ▪ no reason is given , but the vain conceit that of late he and others have entertained of appropriating that title to churches of their way , whose maintenance of ministers by collection , they call the provision of sion , psal. . . in opposition to maintenance by tithes , counted babylonish , with such like language , whereby many well-meaning christians of weak judgement are misled . sure if the church be called mount sion from the preaching of the gospel , the assemblies of england may be called sion , christs candlesticks and garden , as well as any christians in the world : and if the constitution of churches is by faith , their constitution ▪ is as good as the constitution of the separated churches . and methinks the separated churches , which have consisted of persons converted and instructed , and edified in the assemblies of the church of england , should have acknowledged that gods blessing may be in them , their own calling therein proving it , if there were any spark of ingenuity and love of truth in them , and not , as this authour , express such malignity as to make them a very wilderness , and that babel out of which the lord commands his people to hasten their escape , revel . . . which how grossly it hath been abused by this authour , sundry times before hath been shewed ; for which i now onely say , the lord rebuke thee . as for the second reason , the worship of england is no more polluted and not of his appointment , then i have shewed to have been in the jewish , corinthian , some of the asian churches , whom christ yet walked in the midst of , as his golden candlesticks , and yet gods blessing did belong to them . and why should we not expect gods blessing to be on the assemblies of england , in which the true faith is preached , and the true worship of god is constituted , notwithstanding errours or pollutions remaining in them ? that jer. . . is wrongfully applied to the present ministers of england , is shewed before in answer to ch. . sect. . and how shamefully ( mirum ni contra conscientiam ) revel . . . is applied to a call of gods people out of the church of england , when it is by the holy ghost interpreted revel . . . of that great city which then reigned over the kings of the earth , and acknowledged by papists , the jesuites themselves to be rome , hath been often shewed before . in his last reason , that which he saith , that god is not in respect of his special presence and grace , in the midst of the parochial assemblies of england , is a speech of a man of an uncharitable venemous spirit ; but we hope such as that which solomon speaks of , prov. . . as the bird by wandring , as the swallow by flying , so the curse causeless shall not come . and to his question , where are the souls that are converted , comforted , strengthened , stablished , that are waiting at the doors of their house ? i say , that though there were none such , yet this proves not god not to be present in them ; if they complain of the little effect of their preaching , is it any other then we meet with elsewhere , isa. . . isa. . . john . . rom. . . isa. . . rom. . . micah . , . luke . , , , . matth , . ? may they not say , that these very men that upbraid them with the paucity of their converts ▪ are the cause thereof , by their invectives begetting enmity and prejudice against them in the minds of men ? may it not be said to themselves , where are the souls that are converted , comforted , strengthened , stablished by your ministry ? were not many , if not most in your churches wrought upon at first by other preachers ? and if so , may it not be said , ye your selves are the seal of their ministry in the lord ? nevertheless , though god onely can tell exactly and fully , what is the fruit of any mens ministry , yet i hope there are that can testifie their receiving good by the ministry of some of the present ministers ; and that , however it be , by reason of the many stumbling-blocks cast in the way , god will yet have mercy on the people of england , and give them hearts to receive the truth preached to them in the love of it . sure this authour should rather pray it may be so , and encourage the ministers to do the work of the lord more faithfully , and not weaken their hands by drawing their auditors from them . as for that which he saith of the decaies of the auditors of the ministers , i joyn with him ; but add withall , that , so far as mine acquaintance , or intelligence reacheth , there is too great and sensible a decay of the spirit of love , power , and of a sound mind in the congregational churches of old and new england , and that a spirit of bitterness , consoriousness , misreporting , mistaking dissenters words and actions , unrghteousness , unpeaceableness is too abundant in them , that i say nothing of their proneness to embrace antinomianism , quakerism , and other dangerous errours . iliacos intra muros peccatur & extra . the lord pardon our evils , and heal our breaches . yet there is one more argument to be answered . sect. . hearing the present ministers , is no step to apostacy . argument . that the doing whereof is one step to apostacy , is not lawful to be done . but the hearing the present ministers of england , is one step to apostacy . therefore , the major proposition will readily be granted by all : the beginnings of great evils are certainly to be ●esisted . apostacy is one of the greatest evils in the world . the minor ( or second proposition ) viz. that the hearing of the present ministers is one step to apostacy , is evident . . it cannot be done ( especially by persons of congregational principles ) without a relinquishment of principles owned by them as received from god : that the church of england , as national , is a church of the institution of christ : that persons not called to the office of the ministry by the saints , are rightfull ministers of christ , must be owned , and taken for granted , ere the conscience can acquiesce in the hearing the present ministers ( for we suppose 't will not be asserted by those with whom we have to do , that there can be a true ministery in a false church , or that false ministers may be heard ; and yet the present ministers are ministers in and of the national church of england , and were never solemnly deputed to that office of the suffrage of the lords people . ) ly . nor can it be done without the neglect of that duty , which with others , is eminently of the appointment of the lord , to secure from apostacy , instanc'd in by the author to the hebrews , hebr. . . not forsaking the assembling of your selves together as the manner of some is , but exhorting one another , and so much the more as you see the day approaching ; in which the duty of saints assembling themselves together , as a body distinct from the world , and it's assemblies , ●s also their frequent , and as often as may be , exhorting one another , as a medium to secure them ( by the blessing of the lord thereupon ) from a spirit of degeneracy and apostacy from god , is clearly asserted : whence it undeniably follows , that the hearing of the present ministers of england ( being inconsistent with the constant and diligent use of the means prescribed for the preservation of the saints in the way of god : for whilst they are attending upon their teachings , they cannot assemble themselves according to the prescription of god in the forementioned scripture ) is at least one step to the dreadfull sin of apostacy from god , and therefore it is utterly unlawful for saints so to do . and thus far of the twelfth argument for the proof of the assertion under our maintenance , viz. that 't is not lawful for saints to hear the present ministers of england , to which many others might be added : but we doubt not , to the truly tender and humble enquiring christian , what hath been offered will be abundantly sufficient to satisfie his conscience in the present enquiry . answ. if by apostasie be meant apostatie from the living god and the christian faith the major is granted , and the minor is denied , nor is there any thing tending to a shew of proof of it produced for it , and if it should be meant of such apostasie the thing is so notoriously false , the hearers of such ministers , as ●e now ministers in england , having been as constant in the profession and practice of christianity both against popery and other ungodliness in times of persecution by papists and at other times , as other christians in other ages , that this author would be hissed at as one extremely impudent in asserting so palpable an untruth . but i conceive by his proof of the minor he means by apostasie the relinquishing of the congregational principles and practise . concerning which i conceive the major may be denyed , it being not unlawfull , but a necessary duty to depart from some of their principles and practises , i mean such as are for separation in communion from dissenting christians . yet i do not think but the conscience may well acquiesce in the hearing of the present ministers , as teaching truth without relinquishment of the two principles owned by them as received from god. i think if they will weigh what is here written , they may find , if not the congregational principles , yet separation inferred from them to be an errour , and to beget nothing but superstition in their minds , and sinfull uncharitable division in their practise . nor do i think it necessary that they which still adhere to that way of communion need neglect the duty of meeting and exhorting one another according to hebr. . . the mistake of which is shewed in the answer to this chapter , sect. . they that hear the present ministers some hours , may hear other ministers at other hours , they that at one time hear them , may at another time exhort one another ; heretofore persons of congregational principles could hear in parochial assemblies parochial ministers ; why they may not do so still i understand not , were it not that opinions of separation animated them to division and faction , which the lord amend , and make them diligent to provoke one another to love and to good works . i have now answered the jury of twelve arguments , which i have found brutum fulmen , as the shooting off ordinances without a bullet , nothing that might deter tender , and considerately enquiring christians from hearing the present ministers . it remains , that i make good the catasceuastick part of this dispute by confirming the arguments brought for hearing them , which i shall apply my self to after the answering of the questions which here follow . sect. . a pollution in one part , makes not the whole worship polluted . we shall , saith he , onely in the close offer a few queries to be in the fear of the holy one , considered by the intelligent reader . quer. . whether the lord jesus be not the alone head , king , and law-giver to his church ? answ. yes , meaning it of the supream , absolute , independent , head , king , law-giver to his church as such . . whether the laws , statutes , orders and ordinances of christ be not faithfully to be kept , though all the princes in the world should interdict and forbid it ? answ. they are . . whether to introduce other laws for the government of the church of christ , and the worship of his house , be not an high advance against , and intrusion into his kingship and headship ? answ. not , if they be no other then such as are shewed to be warranted in this answer to the preface , sect. . . to ch. . sect. . to ch. . sect. , , , , , , . . whether the lord jesus as king and head over his church , hath not instituted sufficient officers and offices for the administration of holy things in his house , to whom no more can be added without a desperate undervaluation and contempt of his wisdom , headship and soveraignty over it ? answ. some servants and services may be appointed by rulers , without such an undervaluation or contempt . . whether the officers instituted by christ , are not onely pastors , teachers , deacons and helpers ? answ. in this catalogue i find not helpers officers instituted by christ , by some others not here mentioned , i find of christs institutions , cor. . . ephes. . . . whether the offices of archbishops , lord bishops , deacons , sub-deans , prebendaries , chancellors , priest , deacons ( as an order of the first step to a priesthood ) arch-deacons , sub-deacons , commissaries , officials , proctors , registers , apparitors , parsons , vicars , curates , canons , petty-canons , gospellers , epistollers , chaunters , virgers , organ-players , queristers , be officers any where instituted by the lord jesus in the scripture ? answ. some are , some are not : see the answer to ch . . . whether the calling and admission into these last mentioned offices , their administration and maintenance now had and received in england , be according to the word of god ? answ. so much as is necessary to the resolving of this question in order to the present controversie , is answered before in sundry places , which the reader is to observe to satisfie himself . . whether every true visible particular church of christ , be not a select company of people , called and separated from the world , and false worship thereof , by the spirit and word of god , and joyned together in the fellowship of the gospel , by their own free and voluntary consent , giving up themselves to christ , and one another according to the will of god ? answ. some of these terms are so ambiguously used , as is shewed before , that in some sense it may be answered affirmatively , in some negatively . . whether a company of people living in a parish ( though the most of them be visible drunkards , swearers , &c. or at least strangers to the work of regeneration upon their souls ) coming ( by compulsion or otherwise ) to the hearing of publick prayers or preaching are in the scripture account saints , and a church of christ according to the pattern given forth for him : or rather , be not to be esteemed daughters of the old whore and babel , spoken of in the scripture ? answ. if their faith be right , the first part is answered affirmatively , the last negatively . . whether in such a church there ●s , or can rationally be supposed to be , a true ministry of the institution of christ ? answ. it may . . whether the book of common-prayer , or stinted liturgies , be of the prescription of christ , and not of mans devising and invention ? answ. the worship or matter ( for the greatest part ) of the common-prayer-book is of christ , though the method and form of words be of men . . whether if one part of a worship used by a people , be polluted , the whole of their worship be not to be looked upon , in a scripture account , as polluted and abominable , according to kings . . kings . . isa. . . hos. . . ezek. . . z●ph . . so that , ●f their prayers be naught and polluted , their preaching be not so too ? answ. no : nor is any such thing said in any of these texts : not ki●gs ▪ . is c●ndemned their following after baal , and not cl●av●ng to god ; no intimation that if they cleaved to god , it would be polluted by reason of the following of baal ; but shewing they could not cleave to god , if they did follow baal . no pollution is ascribed to the fear of the lord , kings . . because of the service of the gods of the nations ; but the service of the gods of the nations is counted pollution , notwithstanding such fear of god as they had . isa. . . the killing of an ox was not a pollution , because of other pollution of worship , but because of the evil of the person , it was polluted to him , not in it self hos. . . swearing the lord liveth , was evil , because they pretended they did swear by the true god , when they swore by these calves , amos . . diodati annot. in locum . ezek. . . notes not one part of lawful worship polluted by another unlawful ; but mentions onely an idolatrous service near to gods temple , of which i have spoken before in answer to chap. . sect. . swearing by the lord was not polluted , because they sware by malcham ; but the hypocrisie of the persons is noted , who made shew of swearing by the lord , when they sware also by malcham ; whereas he that serves god acceptably , must cleave to him onely as god ▪ if , as this authours quaerie intimateth , a ministers prayers be naught and polluted , his preaching must be so too , then all preaching is naught in him , that by imperfection or passion vents that in prayer , which is not right ; which i am sure hath been in the ministers of congregational principles ; and none then should be heard preach , whose prayers have any errour , or imperfection in them ; which is a very gross absurdity , and such as would make all mens preaching unlawful , and bring in the opinion of the seekers , who would have none accounted ministers of god , but such as speak by immediate inspiration . . whether a ministry set up in direct opposition unto a ministry of christ , which riseth upon it's fall , and falls by it's rise , can by such as so account of it , be lawfully joyned unto ? answ. no : but they are bound to leave this account , if it be erroneous . . whether such as have forsworn a covenant-reformation according to the word of god , and swear to a worship that is meerly of humane devising , that have nothing of the essentials of a minister of christ to be found upon them , may be accounted of as his ministers , and be adhered to ? answer . no. . whether such as shall so do , be not guilty of casting contempt upon the institutions of christ , and disobedience against his royal edicts , commanding them to seperate from persons of such a complection . to which many others of the like nature might be added . answ. they would be , if they should do so wittingly and willingly . enough of questions are propounded already ; and this is answer to the . arguments and . quaeries ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 now for the other part of the book in the last chapter , which begins thus . chap. . fifty arguments for hearing the present ministers . sect. . christs direction matth. . , . warrants hearing the present ministers . having hitherto been upon the confirmation of the truth asserted by us , viz. that 't is not lawfull for saints to hear the present ministers of england , we come now to consider , what is in this matter objected by our d●ssenting brethren . this is that they say , object . . christ commands ( or at least permits ) his disciples to hear the scribes and pharisees ( who were men as corrupt in their doctrine , as vicious in their lives , as the present ministers of england can be supposed to be ) matth. . , . therefore it is lawfull to hear these . answ. this being the main objection used by our dissenting brethren in this day ( as it was by others in times past ) their very achilles in this controversie , we shall speak the more largely to it . to which i reply , that this is justly urged to prove it lawfull to hear the present ministers of england preaching ▪ the doctrine of christ , because christ allowed his disciples and the multitudes hearing the scribes and pharisees teaching the law of moses , notwithstanding they were erroneous , vicious , intruders in that business , as much or more than are the present ministers of england into the office , or work of preaching the gospel . that the force of this reason may be perceived , it is to be noted , that it was the office of the priest , who were to be of the tribe of levi , to instruct the people in the law of moses , as we find the prophet malachi speaking , mal. . the priests lips should keep knowledge , and they should seek the law at his mouth , for he was the messenger of the lord of hosts , yet there they are complained of to have departed out of the way , to have caused many to stumble at the law , to have been partial in the law , v. , . which occasioned , especially after the return from the captivity of babylon , the rising of sundry sects among the jews , as sadduces , and pharisees known by their peculiar tenents and usages , who were not all , nor necessarily of the tribe of levi , as it is certain concerning st. paul , that he was a pharisee , and the son of a pharisee acts . . yet of the tribe of benjamin , philip. . . which therefore had no special function of teaching committed to them by god , having neither extraordinary nor ordinary calling of god , but had betaken themselves to that way , as the orders of friers among the papists , by their voluntary choice , yet , as the friers among the papists , so the pharisees among the jews bare the greatest sway with the common people , as having greatest influence upon their consciences in matters of religion , and in process of time greatest power in the government of the state ▪ though they were not the ordinary magistrates . now to these pharisees were adjoyned scribes , who were writers , teachers , expositors , disputers , rabbins , masters , lawyers , or doctors of the law , among whom our saviour is said to sit at years old in the temple hearing them , and asking them questions , luke . . by which it is apparent , that they which were then the doctors of the law used to sit in the temple to resolve cases about the law ; for which reason they were said to sit in the seat of moses , matth. . . concerning whom , though our lord christ had charged them with corrupting the law by their traditions matth. . . mark. . and had warned his disciples to take heed of the leaven of their doctrine , matth. . . . yet matth. . , , . he spake to the multittude , and to his disciples , saying , the scribes and pharises sit in moses seat : all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe , that observe and do ; but do not ye after their works : for they say and do not . now our lord christs appointing them to observe what they bid , shews he allowed or permitted their hearing them ; ( for otherwise they could not observe what they bid them ) yet not absolutely , for then he should have contradicted himself in warning them against their traditions , and the leaven of their doctrine , but conditionally or respectively , that is what they bid them do according to the law of moses , in whose seat they sate , that is took upon them to be expounders of the law of moses . whence it is inferred , that while the ministers of england teach the doctrine of christ , they may be heard notwithstanding defects in their calling , and their personal evils , as the hearing of the scribes and pharisees was allowed by christ to his disciples . and the argument may be formed thus . that hearing of ministers against which there is no more just exception than was against the hearing of the scribes and pharises sitting in the seat of moses in christs time by his disciples , is lawful for christian saints now : but there is no more just exception against hearing the present ministers of england , than was against hearing of the scribes and pharisees sitting in the seat of moses in christs time by his disciples . therefore the hearing the present ministers of england is lawfull to christian saints now . the major proceeds on this rule , that what in the same case our lord christ allowed to his disciples then , is allowed by him to christian saints now , which , if it be not granted , christs resolutions then are no satisfactions or directions to our consciences now , which were to make those scriptures useless , which were blasphemous . the minor is proved by shewing the exceptions against hearing the present ministers are not greater nor more just then against the scribes and pharisees , and the hearing of them , nor the christian saints now any more forbidden to hear the present ministers , than the disciples of christ then to hear the scribes and pharisees . again , we may thus argue , that which warranted christs disciples hearing the scribes and pharisees in his time notwithstanding other defects warrants the saints hearing of the present ministers of england ; now notwithstanding other defects which is grounded on such rules of logick as these de paribus idem est judicium , of things alike we are to have the like judgement idem quà idem semper facit idem , the same consequent follows on the same reason as it is the same . but the scribes and pharisees preaching or declaring the will of god warranted christs disciples hearing the scribes and pharisees in his time notwithstanding other defects . therefore the present ministers preaching or declaring the will of god notwithstanding other defects warrants the saints hearing now the present ministers of england . the minor is grounded upon that , which is intimated to be the reason of christs direction matth. . , . that they sate in moses his chair , that is taught the observation of gods law , and that what they bid them observe according to it they were to hear and do , as on the contrary they were not , when they taught corrupt traditions of men , and other leavened doctrine . to these things this author thus answers . sect. . the scribes and pharisees sate in moses his chair as teachers , not as magistrates . many things are supposed by the objecters , and taken for granted ( and must be so by all that judge any weight to be in what is from this supposed command of christ argued ( which they will never be able to prove ; and yet they are the very basis upon which the stress of the objection lies . as . 't is supposed that the scribes and pharisees here spoken of , were in the ministerial seat , teachers and expounders of the law , which at first view seems to be a difficult task for any to demonstrate , that some of the scribes and pharisees ( which were particular sects among the jews , as is known ) were so , cannot be denied ; that these here mentioned by our saviour are such , is not so evident . they are expresly said to sit in moses seat ( not aarons ) who though he were of the tribe of levi , yet was not the ministerial , but magistratical seat committed to him . to the posterity of aaron did the office of priesthood appertain ( as is known to all that have but in the least turned aside to consider of this affair ) nor is it altogether frivolous , that is by some observed , that these scribes and pharisees are especially charged with the omission of judgement and mercy ; things most nearly relating unto the office of magistracy , to whom it doth especially appertain to look thereunto . nor will it in the least follow , that supposing christ enjoyned his disciples to attend upon the scribes and phariseees , acting as magistrates , and conform to what is justly and righteously prescribed by them as such : that therefore it is lawful to attend upon the present ministers of england . i reply , that it is indeed supposed , that the scribes and pharisees here spoken of , were in the seat of moses , teachers and expounders of the law : but not that they were officers about the sacrifices and services belonging to the worship of god at the templé , as were the priests and levites ; nor need we so to suppose : it is sufficient for rhe argument , that they took upon them the expounding of the law , and to resolve consciences , what they were to do , they did as casuists or doctors of divinity in schools or synagogues , or in the temple : which is proved from that which is said , that they did bind heavy burdens , and lay them on mens shoulders , v. . which was by their precepts , their affecting to be called of men , rabbi , rabbi , masters , fathers , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , leaders , v. , , . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , doctors , or teachers , translated master in israel , john . but were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , matth. . . blind guides , matth. . . blind leaders of the blind . and that they were not priests , appeared by their paying tythes , matth. . luke . . nor were they ordinary magistrates , except such as were in their synedria ; the romans were then the ordinary magistrates . nor could they be said to sit in moses chair , either as magistrates having the same power he had , or as law-givers . for the power and office of moses , whether as magistrate , judge , or prophet , was singular . he was a prophet to whom there arose none like in israel , deut. . . and he was a judge or prince under god supreme , who had jurisdiction and empire supreme , in matters sacred and profane , although the function of doing holy rites was committed to aaron and his sons , and the levites , as is proved by selden , l. . de syned . ebrae . c. . from exod. . . deut. . . the address to him in difficult causes his sentences , and other things acknowledged by writers jewish and christian. it is not denied , that the pharisees and scribes were many of them rulers of the jews , as it is said of nicodemus , john . . and of the priests and levites john . . . but not as scribes or pharisees , who were , as such , onely particular sects among the jews , as this authour truly acknowledgeth : nor as sitting in moses chair , which onely noted their function of teaching and expounding of the law , being bred up at the feet of rabbins or doctors of the law , as st. paul at the feet of gamaliel , and after sitting in the school , or auditory of the temple or synagogues , where moses of old time had in every city them that preached him , being read in the synagogues every sabbath-day , acts . . wherein the scribes and pharisees affected and obtained the chief seats , matth. . and had much sway with the people , though they taught not with such authority as christ did , matth. . . mark . . now wherein they taught according to moses law , or the truth , as about elias coming matth . . . they were to be heard in other things , as in their own traditions , and the commandments of men their doctrine was to be rejected , matth. . . it is frivolous which is observed , that because judgement and mercy , the omission of which is charged on the scribes and pharisees , matth. . . and those nearly relate to the office of magistracy , to whom it doth especially appertain to look thereunto : that therefore the scribes and pharisees , v. , . are considered as magistrates . for , as is in the assembly annotations on the place , the judgement , mercy , and faith , are just dealing with all men , mercy in relieving the poor , and faithfulness in covenants , promises and contracts , judgement being there taken for right ordering the conversation towards god and men , as matth. . . which is manifest , in that it is joyned with mercy and faith , or as it is luke . . the love of god opposed to ravening , extortion , intemperance or excess , matth. . . rapine and wickedness luke . . such as was when they devoured widows bouses , making long prayers for a pretence , matth. . . compassing sea and land to make one proselyte , and when he was made , making him twofold more the child of hell then themselves , v. . no such argument therefore is or needs be made , as this authour frames as made by his opponent , that supposing christ to injoyn his disciples to attend upon the scribes and pharisees acting as magistrates ; therefore it is lawful to attend upon the present ministers of england : for neither do we say that christ injoyned attendance on them , nor that they acted as magistrates ; but our supposition is , that they acted as teachers , and his disciples were permitted to hear them , though liable to greater and more exceptions then the present ministers . it is added , sect. . the pharisees were not church-officers of gods appointment . but let this be granted . suppose . the scribes and pharisees to be the preachers and expounders of the law in that day , the seat mentioned to be a ministerial seat : yet this will not at all help them in the matter in controversie , except it be granted to them , that the scribes and pharisees were not a lawful , but a false ministry that had surreptitiously climbed up into this ministerial seat ( for who sees not the invalidity and nothingness of this argument , 't was lawful to hear the scribes and pharisees which were the lawful church-officers of that day , of the appointment of the lord , acting by vertue of an authority derived from him ; therefore 't is lawful to hear persons that have not any such authority from christ , but are meer intuders , and ministers of antichrist ( as the present ministers of england have been proved to be ) now this upon that supposition , that they were ministers , we cannot yield , to these reasons . . the pharisees are expresly said to be priests and levites , john . . ( and this is the record of john , when the jews sent priests and levites from jerusalem , to ask him , who art thou ? v. . and they that were sent were of the pharisees ) which were the ordinary lawful ministers of that day . . these of all others were most apt to question the authority of such as taught the people : so when john appears preaching and baptizing , and professes to them , that he was not the christ , nor elias , nor prophet ( who was expected by the people of the jews ) they immediately question his authority , john . . why baptizest thou then ? which they could not be supposed to have the face to do , if they themselves of all others had been the greatest intruders . nay . when they question christ himself about his authority , he asks not them from whence they had theirs ( which doubtless upon that occasion , he would have done , had they not been lawfully seated in the seat they did possess ) but from whence john had his , who was esteemed as a prophet . . we have the lord jesus many times crying out above all others against the pharisees , condemning them of pride , hypocrisie , avarice , &c. but not the least tittle of the usurpation of moses seat is by him charged upon them , or in the least intimated , which doubtless would have been , had they been guilty thereof . i reply , that this grant , that the scribes and pharisees were preachers and expounders of the law in that day , will help the objectours in the matter in controversie , though it be not granted to them , that the scribes and pharisees were not a lawfull , but a false ministry , that had surrepticiously climbed up into this ministerial seat . for they are assured , that this author hath not proved , nor can prove the present ministers of england to be meer intruders and ministers of antichrist , and therefore need not this supposition concerning the scribes and pharisees , to prove christs allowing the hearing of the present ministers . only this is urged , that there is as much exception and more against the pharisees teaching , than against the present ministers , and yet they might be heard , therefore with better reason may the present ministers be heard . nevertheless i deny , that the scribes and pharisees , which they were to hear , were the lawfull church officers of that day , of the appointment of the lord , acting by vertue of an authority derived from him , it being certain that , as he saith , they were a particular sect among the jews , no where appointed by god to this office of priesthood or teaching , but taken up by men , as orders of friers among the papists , though some of them were priests , and some of them rabbins , or teachers of the law , and educated thereunto , as teachers of divinity are in the schools among us at this day ; which , if the ministers of england had no further ordination , being the condition of most , or very many of the present ministers in england might justifie the hearing of them as well as the hearing the pharisees , who had no better calling to that function . as for the reasons of this author , the first is not valid . for it proves only that some of the priests and levites were pharisees , not all , st. paul certainly was not , though a pharisee ; nor that those that sate in moses chair were priests , for all were not there being many thousands of pharisees , who were not rabbins . st. paul was a pharisee , the son of a pharisee , when he sate at gamaliels feet , acts . . yet not a doctor of the law sitting in moses his chair . nor , if they were priests , doth it prove they were the lawfull ministers of that day . for , to say nothing of christs apostles , who were at that day the lawfull ministers with and under christ himself , it is certain the priests of those times got their places , as for instance the high priest by undue and unlawfull wayes , by bribing the roman deputy , as josephus reports , and therefore if it were proved , they were priests , yet they are not proved to be lawful ministers . yea that which is said of their ordination , and education by the most favourable writers of the jewes , proves they had some kind of entrance into their profession according to the customs of those times , which were of human invention , but nothing of gods institution , that they should sit in the chair of moses . as for the second reason , there is no marvel they had the impudence to question iohns authority , though themselves intruders , when they were puft up with conceits of their authority , though they had none , when they were so proud and impudent as to conceive themselves righteous and despise others , luke . . and to allege it in prayer to god , though their consciences might tell them they were covetous and unrighteous , yea to deride christ , when he told them they could not serve god and mammon , luke . . nor is the third reason of force , for christ might question their authority though he did not when they questioned johns , and he seems after john to have done it in calling them a generation of vipers , blind guides , with sundry other expressions disparaging of them and their traditions ; and his charging them with affectation and ambitious seeking of the chief seats , and to be called rabbi , rabbi , what is it but an evidence , that they did unlawfully climb into moses his seat , which they did so ambitiously gape after ? as for the not in express words charging them with usurpation , it is no marvail it is not related , sith their instigation of herod to take away john baptists life related by iosephus is not related , as imputed to them , by christ in any of the evangelists ; besides how irrational this argument is , we read not , that christ charged them with usurpation of moses seat , therefore he did it not , every puny in schools knows , who hath learned that rule in logick , argumentum non valet ab authoritate negativè , an argument from testimony negatively is not of force , especially in matters of fact , it is not related , therefore it was not done ; and most of all concerning christs acts , of which it is noted , that many things are not written , john . . sect. . christ allows hearing the pharisees while they taught the law of moses . yet again saith this author , but let this also be granted , that we may hear this argument , speak its uttermost , the scribes and pharisees sit in moses seat ; this seat is a ministerial seat , and they sit not here by virtue of any lawfull authority , but are meer intruders ; what follows from hence ? why this , if it were lawfull to hear the scribes and pharisees , persons vicious in their lives , corrupt in their doctrine , having no lawfull call to the place they possessed : then it undeniably follows , that its lawfull to hear the present ministers of england , though they have no lawfull authority or call to the office they assume . it must it seems , then dly , be granted , that when christ sayes , what they say unto you , do , he is to be interpreted , to command , or at least , to permit an attendance upon their ministry . but this is that we deny , and dare confidently aver , that it never entred into the heart of christ to permit , much less to command any to attend upon the ministry of the scribes and pharisees : nor is any such thing in the least intimated in the words under consideration . for first , the words are in the original 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. which may more strictly be rendred , the scribes and pharisees have sate in moses chair , all things therefore whatsoever they have said unto you , &c. ( i. e. whatever in times past , you have heard delivered by these men , according to the mind of god , do you not now reject because of that hypocrisie , pride , covetousness , &c. you are made to see is predominant in them . i reply , the argument is framed not as here by this authour , but as i before formed it . the command to do what they bid implies a permission to hear , else how could they do as they bid ? though the words v. . may be rendered , have sate in moses chair , yet the words , v. . according to the greek language , and , i think , according to all interpreters must be rendered , whatsoever they shall say unto you , it being a precept concerning their future actions , and the word render'd [ sit ] being in the first aorist is best rendered , as noting an indefinite time , and so is to be conceived as signifying a continued time past and present , they have and still do sit . but were it granted , that the bidding were meant of the time past , the argument were of force , they heard , therefore they may hear , christ not disapproving their former hearing , but giving a reason , which infers a continued permission to hear them , because they sate in moses chair , that is , taught the law of moses , so that he makes this the entire reason of their observing , and consequently of hearing , in that they bid them observe the law of moses , which while they did , they were to hear them , and observe them , not when they taught for doctrines the precepts of men : which is indeed the genuine reason of his caveat there and elsewhere , especially in the sermon on the mount , matth. . & . & . in which having said , matth. . . think not that i am come to destroy the law or the prophets : i am not come to destroy , but to fulfill , he then adds , that one jot shall not pass from the law till all were fulfilled , that he would not have the least commandement broken by practise or doctrine , yet with monition , that their righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees , if they would enter into the kingdom of heaven , and accordingly clears the law from their false glasses , warns his disciples of their hypocritical practises , of their corrupt doctrine and traditions , directs persons to observe the rites of the law , while he was on earth , and to acquit himself from being an enemy to the law a little before his death , though he had late experience of their opposition , yet minds his disciples that they should not neglect their teaching out of the law , though they were not to imitate their practise . whence may be clearly discerned , that christ would have them heard teaching out of the law of god , notwithstanding other defects or corruptions , and that the resolution of this case is a plain rule to us , that we may lawfully hear such as teach truth , notwithstanding other defects and corruptions in their lives and ministry : it is added , sect. . hearing pharisees teaching moses law , not attendance on their ministry , as pastors is allowed by christ. let the words be as they are rendered , whatever they bid you observe and do , that observe and do . yet ly , who that hath but half an eye can chuse but see , that an attendance upon their ministry is remote enough from being their intendment ? we had alwayes thought , that they might have been sufficiently acquainted with , and been in a capacity of hearing and knowing what had been said by these men through their particular occasional meeting and discourse with them , though they had never spent one hour in attending upon their ministry : which that our saviour did not enjoyn , no nor so much as permit by that expression , we suppose may be clearly demonstrated from the ensuing considerations . . there are not a generation of men of whom the lord iesus doth speak more contemptuously ( and charges with greater enormities ) than he doth of that generation of scribes and pharisees . in this very chapter he informs us of their hypocrisie , ver . . . . , , . and pride , ver . , . and tells us plainly , that they shut up the kingdom of heaven against men , neither entering in themselves , nor suffering those that are entering , to go in , ver . . that they make their proselytes twofold more the children of hell than themselves , ver . . that they are blinde guides , ver . . . . . perverters of the scripture , such as make void the commandements of god by their traditions , ver . , , . that they are serpents , a generation of vipers , that cannot escape the damnation of hell , ver . . yea , such as shall kill , crucifie , scourge , persecute the messengers of the lord , ver . . and can it be imagined , that christ should have no more tenderness to poor souls , than to direct them to an attendance upon such persons as these for teaching ? — credat apelles ! ( apella likely ) are these likely motives to perswade or enforce a●y thereunto ? yet this is what he immediately subjoyned , having said , whatever they bid you observe , that observe and do . . the doctrines owned by them are known : the tessera of their sect , was , justification by the works of the law , which is diametrically opposite to the work christ was then upon , and the doctrine preached by him . . that they denied christ to be the messiah , blasphemed him in his doctrine ( as the deceiver of the people ) in his life ( as a wine-bibber and gluttonous person ) in his miracles ( as one that wrought them by the devil , who are therefore condemned by christ , as guilty of the very sin of blasphemy against the holy ghost , matth. . . ) is known , as being what is frequently remarked in the scripture . . we no where find the disciples attending upon the ministry of the scribes and pharisees , notwithstanding this supposed command or permission of christ. nay , we cannot but think the supposition hereof , not onely inconsistent with , and opposite to that expression concerning christ , mar. . . and jesus when he saw much people , was moved with compassion towards them , because they were as sheep not having a shepherd ( what ? without a shepherd , and yet the scribes and pharisees , whose feeding they might lawfully attend upon ; doth christ pity them in this desperate state , and not give them one word of direction to wait upon these profound and worthy doctors ? ) but also contrary to that solemn command given forth from the lord , acts . . save your selves from this untoward generation ; and the practice of the disciples , who continued in the apostles doctrine and fellowship , and breaking of bread , and prayer , acts . . . were that the intendment of christ , as is suggested ( and the argument of our brethren valid ) a lawfulness to hear the veriest blasphemer in the world that denies that christ is the messiah , affirms that he was a deluder of the people , a gluttonous person , a winebibber , one that did miracles by belzebub the prince of devils , that persecutes even to death christ in his people , might by a like parity of reason be deduced . christ commanded , or at least permitted his disciples to hear the pharisees who were such ( as hath been proved ) therefore 't is lawful to hear persons with the same characters upon them . but god forbid any such injurious dealing should be offered to christ , or that any who pretend to fear god ( and i hope do so in reality ) should stand by a cause which hath no better arguments to defend it , than what may be as righteously every way made use of for the attending upon the ministry of the greatest blasphemer , or opposer of christ in the world . evident then it is , notwithstanding the great flourish that many make with this scripture , for the abetting their attendance upon the present ministers of england , that it refuses to admit the least sanctuary thereunto . the scribes and pharisees mentioned matth. . , . may for ought we know be magistrates , not ministers ; if ministers , they were , as hath been proved , lawfully so : christ says concerning them , whatever they bid you observe and do , that observe and do . therefore 't is lawful to attend upon the ministers of england , whose lawful calling to their office cannot be proved ; yea , though there is not the least intimation of a command from christ , or so much as a permission to his disciples to hear the scribes aad pharisees , — nugae & tricae siculae ! if this be to dispute , a man need not fear but to be able to multiply arguments at an easie rate , for whatever he hath a mind to undertake the defence of : yet this is supposed by many to be of greatest moment in this controversie . i reply , if by attendance on the ministry of the scribes and pharisees be meant a constant and ordinary hearing of them as their ordinary shepherds ( as this authous words seem to import ) doubtless neither christ did command , nor permit his disciples such an attendance , both for the reasons given by this authour , and specially because he asserts himself as their onely master or doctour , matth ▪ . . . yet the mention of their sitting in moses his chair or seat , notes more then their discourse upon particular occasional meeting , to wit , their ordinary expounding the law of moses in their schools , where our lord christ permitted his disciples and the multitude to hear them with this limitation and proviso , in , and as they taught the law ; which hearing he did not forbid them , but allow them with such caveats as are there given in that chapter . and against such hearing , none of the reasons of this authour are of force . not the first : for though such personal evils were sufficient motives to keep back people , either from following their example or private counsels , yet not to keep them back from hearing gods law expounded by them the same answer is for the second reason ; the permission of christ is not to hear the pharisees teach all the doctrines of their sect , he had before warned them of receiving their traditions , matth. . . the leaven of their doctrine , matth. . . in which no doubt they understood the doctrine about justification by the works of the law , to be comprehended : but the permission of hearing them is onely as they sate in moses his seat ; that is , as they taught them the duties of moses his law , which he said , matt. . . he came not to destroy , but to fulfil , which is manifest from the illative particle therefore , v. . because they sit in moses seat , and bid you observe what moses did , you are to observe what they bid you observe , and consequently may hear them so teaching . the third reason hath the same answer with this overplus , that to prevent any conceit of allowing the hearing of them in their blaphemy , he avoucheth himself to be their master and teacher , v. . . to the fourth it is but from a testimony negatively , and so of no force : we read not that they used the lords prayer , yet none will say they did not , less that they might not ; we read not of their alms , or fasting , yet they might do both . to the fifth , it was but a limited permission of hearing them as they taught moses law , not as allowing constant attendance on them as their shepherds . christ did conceive the people to be without a shepherd , notwithstanding the pharisees teaching the duties of the law , because though that doctrine were right , and to be observed , yet it was not sufficient to feed them to eternal life . acts . . st. peter did well to exhort his auditors to save themselves from that untoward generation of opposers of christ , as his master before would have him and all his disciples do , not doing after their works , nor following their perverse doctrine , and the church did rightly practice , in continuing in the apostles doctrine and fellowship , and breaking of bread , and prayer ; yet he neither did , nor was to disswade them from hearing or practising the pharisees doctrine of the observing the duties of moses his law , which they were obliged to observe . to the sixht , i grant it lawful to hear any man teach truth , which is gods , and may be heard from the mouth of any man , with whom god allows us converse and communion as they are men ; though we are to hold no communion with them in wickedness , nor willingly hear their blasphemies . that the pharisees as such , were not magistrates , nor lawful ministers , nor considered as such , is shewed before . neither do we say that christ permitted attendance on the ministry of the scribes and pharisees as their pastors , nor need we . it is sufficiene for our purpose , that christ allowed the hearing them teaching moses law , and that proves it lawful to hear the present ministers while , and so far as they teach truth ; which hearing , not constant attending on their ministry , was to be proved lawful , as the question was stated by this authour , ch . . and all along was his conclusion . and that he hath not proved it unlawful , nor evaded the arguments from mat. . , . notwithstanding his irrision of this dispute , i am of the mind the solid reader will say . i think it not amiss to add here the words of mr. john norton minister of ipswich in new england , in his answer to apollonius of middleburg in zealand , c. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , scribarum & pharisaeorum in mosis cathedrâ sedentium fuit corruptio al qua in publico d●i cultu absque debitâ reformatione tolera●a : quia cathedra mosis , i e. officium docendi publicè in ecclesiâ legem mosis , & libros prophetarum , sacerdotibus , & leviti● ex instituto dei ordinariò propria erat : eos autem audire , non ab eis separare jubet christus , matth. . , . of the scribes and pharisees sitting in moses seat , the embassage without commission , was some corruption in the publick worship of god tolerated without due reformation : because the chair of moses , that is , the office of teac●ing publickly in the churches the law of moses , and books of the prophets , was ordinarily proper to the priests and levites , by the appointment of god : yet christ commands to hear them , not to separate from them , matth. . , . it follows , sect. . christs and his apostles going to the jewish meetings , is opposite to the separatists opinion and practice . object . . if it be said , but we find christ and his apostles after him , going frequently into the synagogues , where the scribes and pharisees preached . ans. we answer first , that all that christ and the apostles did , is not lawful for saints to practice , will not be denied : many instances are near at hand for its confirmation , should it so be . ▪ that 't is one thing to go into the synagogues , and another thing to go thither to attend upon the ministry of such as taught there : this is the present case , which that christ or the apostles ever did , cannot be proved . . they went thither to oppose them in , and confute their innovations and traditions in the worship of god , to take an opportunity to teach and instruct the people in his way and will : which when any have a spirit to do , and are satisfied that they are thereunto called by the lord , in respect of the present ministers and worship of england , we shall be so far from condemning them therein , that we shall bless god for them . but this is not to the purpose in hand : the attendance of our brethren upon the ministers of england , is quite another thing , that requires other arguments for its support , than we have hitherto met with . — parvas habet spes troia si tales habet . i reply , it is clear from luke . . that our lord went to the temple at jerusalem , sate in the midst of the doctors , both hearing them , and asking them questions . luke . . that he came to nazareth , where he had been brought up , and as his custom was , he went into the synagogue on the sabbath-day , and stood up to read , that he cured persons there , preached in the synagogues , that peter and john went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer the ninth , acts . . that paul and barnabas went into the synagogue on the sabbath-day , and sate down , and did not speak to the people till after the reading of the law and the prophets , the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them , acts . , . that on the sabbath st. paul went out of philippi by a river side , where prayer was wont to be made , and sate down ; and that this was his manner , acts , . and . . now neither were these synagogues by any appointment of god that we find , nor their meeting , nor their rulers , nor the order of their reading of the law and the prophets , nor their teachers , nor their worship at the temple without many corruptions ; and yet our lord and his apostles were present at them , and joyned with them in hearing them read , and such other services of religion as were done to god. which is a good reason , wherefore it should not be counted necessary to separate from the present assemblies in england , and the publick ministers , notwithstanding such corruptions in their worship , such defect in their calling , such pullutions in the places of meeting , as are by this authour and other separatists urged as a sufficient reason of their separation . the answers hereto are insufficient . for . though all that christ and his apostles did either out of peculiar power or commission , or instinct be not lawfull for us to do , as to●whip buyers and sellers out of the temple , to sentence persons to death as peter did ananias and his wife : yet what they did as men , or part of the jewish people in the worship and church of the jewes , is a warrant to us in the like case to do in the assemblies of the christians , there being no cogent reason , why we may not in these things do as they did , and if these things may not be used for direction and setling our consciences ▪ they are in vain written by the spirit . . though christ and his apostles did not go into the synagogues to attend on the ministry of such as taught there , yet they did there hear the law and prophets read , and joyned in prayers , which this authour will not allow his brethren to do in the church assemblies of england . . that christ or his apostles went into the synagogues to oppose them in , and confute their innovations , and traditions in the worship of god , is more than i remember to have read : nor do i know that any that have or shall come into the assemblies of the church of england to such an end , as quakers and other separatists heretofore have done , can be judged to do it out of any other spirit than a turbulent and evil spirit , without any true calling by the lord , which might satisfie their consciences : and though we should bless god , if liberty were granted more than is , and opportunities taken to teach the people , especially where there is want thereof , in the way and will of god , yet we should not rejoyce that mens particular opinions , or such unnecessary truths , as being unseasonably delivered , would tend to division , and not to edification , should be vented , especially in such auditories , as are in the common sort of those assemblies , and most of all where there are able preachers , who constantly and rightly teach the doctrine of the gospel of christ. it is added , sect. . pauls rejoycing at the preaching christ , of contention , warrants hearing the present ministers . object . . paul rejoyceth at the preaching of the gospel , though 't was preached out of envy , phil. . . to which briefly ; . there may be cause of rejoycing in respect of the issue and event of things , by the wise providence of god , though the means used for their production be evil ; and not to be abetted or complyed with : in what have christians greater cause of rejoycing than in the death of christ ? yet had it been utterly unlawfull to have joyn'd in counsel with , or any wayes abetted or encouraged those wicked persons that crucified and slew him . should the pope send some jesuits into any remote parts of africa to preach the gospel to the poor indians there , here were upon some accounts ground of rejoycing yet no ground for saints to attend upon a jesuitical ministry . but , ly , it appears not , that these paul speaks of , were not true gospel ministers , and so it reacheth not the case in hand : this being that , we have proved the ministers of england guilty of , viz. and acting in the holy things of god without any commission from christ , which when our dissenting brethren prove they have , we shall easily acknowledge the lawfullness of attending upon their ministry . ly . it follows not in the least , that these the apostle speaks of , were either not real saints , or not true ministers of christ , because they are said to preach him out of envy ; the object whereof was not christ ; ( for had they envyed him , they would never have preached him ) but paul , ( thinking , sayes he , to add afflictions to my bonds ) which is consistent with grace , and a lawfull mission to the preaching of the gospel . yet , ly , here is not in this scripture the least word requiring christians to hear them . that because paul rejoyces at their preaching , therefore 't is the duty of saints to attend upon their ministry , is such a non-sequitur as will never be made good . i reply , nor needs it , the lawfulness to hear the present ministers of england , not the duty of the saints to attend upon their ministers being the thing in question , and therefore it is sufficient for my purpose if i prove hence the lawfulness of hearing them , though i should not prove it the saints duty to attend on their ministry . which i conceive may be done by this argument . they , in whose preaching of christ we may rejoyce , though they should not preach christ sincerely , but in pretence out of envy , not good will , out of contention , thinking to add affliction to other ministers bonds , may be heard by the saints lawfully : but the saints may rejoyce in the present ministers of england their preaching of christ , though they should not preach christ sincerely , but in pretence , out of envy , not good will , out of contention , thinking to add affliction to other ministers bonds . therefore the saints may hear the present ministers of england lawfully . the major is grounded on this , that the thing we may rejoyce in is good , for which we may thank god , and consequently hear : which is agreeable to that of the prophets , esai . . . nahum . . . applyed by the apostle rom. . . to the preaching of the gospel , who , he supposeth , are to be welcomed and heard . the minor is proved from the apostles example , phil. . , , . . that preaching of christ that is no other then st. paul rejoyced in , and professed he would rejoyce in , the saints now may rejoyce in , though it be not sincerely , but in pretence , out of envy , not good will , out of contention , to add affliction to other ministers bonds ; but such is the preaching christ by the present ministers , ergo , the saints may rejoyce in it . the major is not to be denyed , unless it be shewed that the apostle did evil in so rejoycing . the minor is manifest , in that no other exception is taken against their preaching , then such as with as great reason might have nullified the joy of st. paul in that , which moved him to rejoyce . in a word , though personal defects and miscarriages were in the preaching of christ , yet the thing it self being good and occasioning the magnifying of christ , it is , and should be , matter of joy to all that love christ. to this argument i find the author of the pamphlet intituled prelatical preachers none of christs teachers , p. . answering thus , that preaching of christ is not to be rejoyced in without limitation , because of these texts , mark . , . luke . , . . acts . . acts . . gal. . , . . phil. . , . acts . . psal. . . . but he sets not down the limitation he would gather thence ; only it may se●m by the texts , that we are not to rejoyce in the confession of christ or his servants by the devils , when the necessity of circumcision and keeping the law of moses for justification is taught , when hypocrites take gods law into their mouths by professing or declaring of it , but hate to be reformed . which we grant , but say all these texts , and the limitation thence deducible , are impertinent to the present argument , for as much as these do not preach christ. nor , saith that author , in propriety and strictness of speech can christ be said to be preached by a prelatical ministry : they justifie them that deny christ to be the sole law-giver of his church , and so make him an idol . which to be false is shewed in the answer to the th . chapter of this treatise . yet saith that author , p. . in case such a minister as this that preacheth by the bishops licence should in his doctrine or sermon affirm jesus christ to be the sole law-giver unto his churches , yet in , and by his very act of preaching he should deny it : should the apostle rejoyce in that preaching of christ which is a denying him ? an horrible speech of monstrous absurdity and impudent malice . i should not say so much of such preaching , though it were by the popes licence , or the devils instigation : for though i should not rejoyce in the motive or impulsive cause by which it is done , yet i would not so censure the thing it self as a denying of christ. but how the receiving of a license from a protestant bishop to preach the gospel within his diocess , and preaching there by vertue of it according to the order established by the law of the land should be a denying of christs legislative power , is to me incomprehensible , and to use that authors phrasifying , the first born of absurdities . i should rejoyce , and bless god to obtain such power upon justifiable conditions . but to our author ; his first answer is not to the purpose ; for rejoycing in the ministers preaching of christ , or those that preached out of envy , is not a rejoycing in the good event by evil means , but in a good event by good means , the preaching christ is a good thing , in which the apostle , and we rejoyce , and the effect is good , although the motive and end of the preachers be evil . the putting of christ to death was in it self evil , and not to be rejoyced in , though the effect of it be good , and to be rejoyced in , no way was the acting of pilate , or herod , or the jewes , to be abetted , but to be abhorred , though the counsel of god was to be justified and extolled , as was done , acts . . &c. should the pope send jesuites to preach the gospel , and they should continue to preach it , and no doctrine antievangelical , i know no reason , why the saints might not attend on their ministry . to the d. d. and th . answers i reply , that the preaching of christ in opposition to paul makes it probable , that they were not real saints , nor true ministers in his sence , such motives being contrary to that brotherly love , which is in every real saint , john . . and that order of the church by which is a lawfull mission , which me thinks he should not conceive to have been in them that acted in a way of contention against st. paul the apostle of the gentiles . and for the ministers of england , i like better the words of mr. iohn robinson in his justification of the separation , p. . then these authors words : in the general , i confess , there is a proportion , and so in that general and large sence , wherein mr. bernard pag. . expounds the word sent , or apostle , i do acknowledge many ministers in england sent of god : that is , that it comes not to pass without the special providence , and ordination of god , that such and such men should rise up , and preach such and such truths for the furtherance of the salvation of gods elect , in the places where they come . they which preached christ of envy and strife to add more afflictions to the apostles bonds , were in this respect sent of god , and therefore it was , that the apostle joyed at their preaching . how much more they that preach of a sincere mind , though through ignorance , or infirmity , both their place and enterance into it be most unwarrantable ? and sure , if they may in this sense be said to be sent of god , it follows saints may hear them , which was to be proved . it is added , sect. . the truth ministers teach , warrants the hearing of them . object . . the ministers of england preach truth , and is it not lawfull to hear truth preached ? we answer , . that 't is lawfull to hear truth preached is readily granted ; but this must be done lawfully , and in the way of christs appointment . . all that preach truth are not to be heard , nor will our discenting brethren say they are . for , . there was never yet any heretical preacher in the world , but he preached some truth ; is it lawfull to hear such ? this will not be said . . the devil himself preached truth , yet christ forbids him , and commands that he hold his peace . . the popish priests preach truth , yet who will say 't is lawfull to attend upon their ministry ? but , . as the present ministers of england preach truth , so , . they preach it but by halves , and dare not for fear of the l. bishops inhibition , preach any doctrine , though never so clearly revealed in the scriptures , and owned by them as the truth of christ , he commands them not to meddle with . . the main truths they preach ( at least many of them ) are contradicted in their practice , they 'l tell you that the lord jesus is the great prophet , and king of his church ; but how palpably this is contradicted by them in their practice , conforming to institutions and laws that are not of his prescription who sees not ? this we have abundantly demonstrated . . with the truth they preach , they mingle errours directly contrary to the scripture , and the revelation of his will therein . instances of this kind have been already exhibited , to which may be added many more : we shall mention but a few , . that the ministry , worship , and government , which christ hath appointed to his church , is not to be received or joyned unto , unless the magistrates ( where they are reputed christian ) do allow it . . that the apocryphal books which have in them errors , ( mac. . , . & . , . eccles. . . wisd. . . ) untruths ( esd. . , , . mac. . . . tob. . , , . with . . judith . . . & . . with v. . & . . , , , . mac. . . . with mac. . . to . and . . . . . . . ) blasphemy ( tobit . . . . with rom. . . tim. . . rev. . . . ) magick ( tob. . , , . & . . . with . , . & . , , . with . , . ) and contradiction to the canonical scriptures , ( judith . , , . compared with gen. . , , . esther in the apocrypha chap. . . & . , . with ester canonical , chap. . . & . . eccles. . . with isa. . . may be used in the publick worship of god. . that the most wicked and their seed , may be compelled , and received to be members of the church . . that marriage may be forbidden at certain seasons , as in lent , advent , rogation-week , &c. . that baptism is to be administred with a cross in the forehead , and that as a symbolical sign . . that though the most notorious , obstinate offenders be partakers of the lords supper , yet the people that joyn with them , are not defiled thereby . . that there may be holy days appointed to the virgin mary , john baptist , to the apostles , all saints and angels ; together also with fasts on their eves , on ember-days , fridays , saturdays ( so called heathenishly enough ) and lent. . that the cope , surplice , tippit , rocket , &c. are meet and decent ornaments for the worship of god , and ministry of the gospel . . that the book of common-prayer is the true worship of god. . that christ descended into hell ( as if christ descended into the place of the damned ) as the papists hold . . that lord bishops can give the holy ghost , and power to forgive and retain sins . . that altars , candles , organs , &c. are necessary and useful in the church of god. . that all children when baptized , are regenerate , and received by the lord for his own children by adoption , common-prayer-book of publick baptism . yea , . that children being baptized , have all things necessary for their salvation , and shall undoubtedly be saved . so they profess in the order of conformation in the common-prayer-book ; with much more that might be offered in this matter . i reply , . the grant , that it is lawfull to hear truth preached , is sufficient to prove it lawful to hear the present ministers preach truth ( which he denies not they do ) unless he could prove it were contrary to the way of christ's appointment to hear the truth from them . . all that preach some truth , are not to be heard ; yet all that preach the great truths of the gospel , notwithstanding some errours non-fundamental may be heard , especially if the errours be seldom or never pressed on the hearers , but left to them to examine , and to be approved or disproved . heretical preachers are not to be heard , because they preach not the great truths of the gospel but errours , which overthrow the foundation , so do the popish priests ; yet it were no sin to hear either of these speak truth . the devils we are to have no communion with , god having put an utter enmity between the serpent and the seed of the woman . . if the present ministers of england preach truth but by halves , it is lawful to hear them preach those halfs . the bishops allow them to preach all truths needful to salvation , all that is contained in the creed , lords prayer , and ten commandments , in the articles , the two tomes of homilies ; nor are men inhibited in schools , or convocations , or at some times in books published in latine , to discover any truths of god , so it be done without disturbance , or other evil consequence . that some truths needful to be known , are not permitted to be published to the vulgar auditories , may have the same reason as christ had for not acquainting his disciples with many things he had to say to them , because they could not then bear them , john . . some things may seem very clearly revealed in the scriptures to some , and be owned by them , which are pernicious , as that the saints have all right to government , that they are to smite the civil powers as part of the fourth monarchy , that justified persons are not under the command of the moral law ; some disputable , as about the thousand years reign , that god cannot forgive sins without satisfaction to his justice , church-constitution , covenant , government , and many more , which it is agreeable to the apostles rule , rom. . . their practice , acts . . not to vent in all sorts of auditories ; and if the bishops do restrain preachers , especially those that are young , raw , injudicious , but violent , and apt to cause division , they do , agreeably to the apostles rule , to the example of all churches , where government is not popular ( which breeds confusion ) yea i think the separatists have found by experience some restraint necessary , and that the universal liberty of conscience , or of prophesying , as it is termed , is intolerable ; and if bishops , who are men , and may be more rigid then they should , hold the reins in too hard , yet there is no reason why the people should refuse to hear that truth which is necessary and sufficient to salvation , because they cannot hear every truth , which perhaps out of faction , or a childish inconstancy , or having itching ears , they desire to know . as for what is said about the ministers contradicting their preaching by their practice , it is answered before in the answer to the th chapter . and yet were it granted , their personal evils are not sufficient to make the hearing of the truth unlawful to the hearers . as for the errours they are said to mingle with the truths they teach , they are not such as overthrow the foundation , if they were errours , and taught by them ; and therefore this is no sufficient reason why they may not be heard preaching necessary truths . yet to shew the futility of this allegation , i shall consider each of the supposed errours . the first i doubt not they will deny , and require this authour to prove it . for the second , it is not , for ought i know , preached by any of the ministers , that the apocryphal books which have in them errours , may be used in the publick worship of god , nor do i think if they should so do , could it well consist with their subscription to the sixth article of the confession of the church of england , which excludes them out of the canon of holy scriptures , which contain all things necessary to salvation , and saith , the church ( as hierome saith ) doth read them for example of life , and instructions of manners : but yet doth it not apply them to stablish any doctrine . and what dr. rainold , the bishop of durham that now is , with many of the english protestant , and conforming divines have written about the apocryphal books , is sufficient to clear the present ministers from suspicion of complying with the papists , who according to the decree of the trent council ses . quarta , put most of them ( though they leave out some of them ) into the catalogue of sacred books , containing that truth and discipline of the gospel which is saving , and to be preached to every creature , and receive and venerate them with equal affection of piety and reverence , as other books of holy scripture . and although the passages alleaged by this authour are liable to exception , nor do i think it fit for me to justifie or excuse them ; yet this i say , to shew there is not a sufficient reason to withdraw from hearing the present ministers preaching or praying . . some of the books are not appointed to be read at all . . some of those that are appointed to be read , are capable of an easier censure , and better construction , then is put upon them by this authour . . that those which are not so capable of excuse , yet are appointed to be read on such days , and in such places , as those that alleadge this for a reason of not hearing the present ministers , need not be present . . that it was once resolved as lawful by dr. george abbot , after archbishop of canterbury , in his answer to dr. hill the papist , p. . from the preface to the second tome of the homilies , for the minister , instead of the apocryphal books , to read some other part of the canonical scripture of the old testament . which things being considered , there seems not for this to be a sufficient reason of not hearing the present ministers , or charging them , as this authour doth . the third errour i conceive they will deny to be their tenent . but concerning this , and the th . th . ●● ▪ th . th . th . errours , so much hath been said before chiefly in the answer to the th . th . th . chapters of this book , that i need not here make a particular answer concerning each of these severally ; yet i say , the things are not matters of the ministers doctrine , however they be of their practice , and therefore cannot be a reason of not hearing their sermons . and they who make this a sufficient reason not to hear , or to pray , or receive the lords supper with a person by reason of some errour he holds or teacheth , or some undue practice on gods worship , or conversation with other men , go against all rules and examples in holy scripture , and approved christians ; and such a one must suppose preachers infallible , every communicant unblameable , or each christian to have power to excommunicate , if the person faulty be not amended upon his reproof , that he must know what tenents his teacher holds , and what is the conversation of each communicant , ere he can warrantably hear the one , or communicate with the other . which with sundry other superstitious conceits , or unnecessary scruples , put an intolerable burden upon mens consciences , and will as well prove withdrawing from the ministers and churches congregational necessary , as from the conformists . as for the th . errour , it will be denied by them to be their tenent , that there may be holy days appointed to the virgin mary , john baptist , &c. for though they be termed for distinction sake , st. peters day , &c. yet saith archbishop whitgift in his answer to the second admonition , the d. reason , the papists saints days were appointed for the honouring and worshipping of the saints by whose names they were called : ours be ordained for the honouring of god , for publick prayer , and edifying the people by reading the scriptures and preaching : neither are they called by the name of any saint in any other respect , than that the scriptures which that day are read in the church , be concerning that saint , and contain either his calling , preaching , persecution , martyrdom , or such like . the like is alleadged by rainold , conference with hart , ch . . divis . . hooker eccles. policy , l. . sect. . yea t. c. the defender of the admonition confesseth that the church of england meaneth not that in these holy days the saints should be honoured , and rivet on exod. . praecept . quartum , acquits the church of england from idolatry , by reason of our form of service , and our doctrine of worshipping god onely . of which more also may be seen in zanchius , tom . . in praece . quartum loc . . q. . &c. as for the th . errour , that christ descended into hell , is in the creed called the apostles , and is the d. article of the confession of the church of england , and is deduced by augustin , epist. ad evodium . from acts . , . and how to understand it of other descent then the place of the damned , or limbus patram , which is the papists tenent , may be seen in archhishop vshers answer to the jesuites challenge , ch . . dr. pearson his exposition of the creed on that article , and others . the th . i think neither the present ministers , nor any of the bishops will assert . the two last let them that hold them answer for themselves ; i say onely that they are such as hearers are not necessitated to assent to , nor such as can justifie separation . but it follows , sect. . evil persons may be heard as true ministers . object . . judas preached , though a wicked man ; and no doubt 't was lawful , yea the duty of saints to hear him . to this we say , no doubt it was so . but . judas was not a visible wicked man at the time of his preaching , but so close an hypocrite , that he was not known to be so , no not to the disciples : but some of the present ministers of england are visibly wicked and profane . . judas was chosen , and called by christ to be an apostle , commissioned by him to preach : but the present ministers of england are not so , as hath been proved . so that this is not at all to the business in hand . i reply , it is confessed that the present ministers are not chosen and called by christ to preach as iudas was ; and it may be also proved concerning the ministers of the congregational churches , whose calling may be questionable as well as theirs , being often by a small company of ignorant persons , many of them women , who challenge power of election without ordination , or other help , or giving the right hand of fellowship by elders of other churches , nor are they all free from visible wickedness and prophaness . and this may be somewhat to the business , by allaying the vehemency of this authours spirit against others . but the chief use of this objection is to answer one exception of this authour , ch . . that the present ministers are not to be heard as gifted brethren , because they walk disorderly : for iudas did walk disorderly , and yet might be heard . 't is true , iudas was not so apparently a thief as others that are openly vitious ; yet christ knew him to be a thief and a traitour , when he appointed him to preach , and forbade none to hear him preach the gospel , and therefore allowed hearing of evil men preach truth , which is denyed by the author of prelatical preachers none of christs teachers , p. , . and is frequently the reason of many people 's not hearing them that preach truth . it is to be added that christ had given some intimation of judas his wickedness , john . , . he goes on , sect. . it is a sin not to encourage good men in their ministry . object . . but there are some good men amongst them , and such as belong to god , may we not hear good men ? to which briefly . answ. . that there are some among the present preachers of this day , that are good men , we shall not stand to deny . yet , . we crave leave to say , that they are all of them such as are sadly polluted and defiled by their complyance , in respect of their standing in the ministry antichristian , whose teachings saints have no warrant to attend upon . . the greater hopes we have of their goodness , the more cautelous should we be of encouraging them in a false way ; that they by our relinquishment of them , and separating from them ( after we have discharged all other duties we are satisfied are incumbent upon us to perform towards them ) may come to see their sin , repent , and do their first works , that god and we may again receive them . . yet the goodness of any , as to the main , is no warrant for any to hold communion with them , or attend upon their teach●ngs : there are brethren that walk disorderly , whom 't is the duty of saints to separate from : that the very best of the ministers of england do so , will not be denyed . the incestuous person , cor. . was , as to the main , for ought i know , a good man : yet were not the saints at corinth to hold communion with him , till upon his repentance he was again received cor. ▪ . . 't is utterly unlawfull to communicate with a devised ministry upon what pretext soever . . so is it for any to partake in other mens sins ( as hath been proved : ) but every usurped ministry is the sin of him ( though never so holy a person ) that exerciseth it . i reply , this objection being an argument ad hominem against this author , who hath represented all the present ministers as walking disorderly , deniers of christs offices , antichristian , idolaters , scandalous , even the best of them : which what face he can say of them , and yet acknowledge them good men is not easily conceivable , they seem to me inconsistent speeches . that their ministry is antichristian , when they minister the word of god is also in my understanding oppositum in apposito a contradiction ; that they stand in that ministry , which they had by episcopal ordination , is so far from being their defilement , that it seems to me their vertue and wisdome , it being alwayes judged by me a great sin to renounce that ministry , sith it is no other then of the doctrine and sacraments , and the discipline of christ as the lord hath commanded , and as this church and realm hath received the same , according to the commandements of god ; which , for any to disclaim , is to go back from the service of christ , and if the present ministers do stand in this ministry , the saints are warranted , and engaged to attend upon it . the greater hopes we have of their goodness , the more are all , that love the lord jesus , bound to encourage them in this way , as being the the true way of christ , and to relinquish them , and separate from them , for this cause is very sinfull , sith it is to separate from them for doing their duty : to hold them as excommunicate , to reprove , to urge them to repentance , not to receive them , to conceive of them as brethren walking disorderly , is uncharitableness , and injustice . that the incestuous person was a good man before he repented cannot be well conceived , sith he committed such a sin as was not named among the gentiles : it was the sin of the corinthians that they were puffed up and had not rather mourned , that he that had done that deed might be taken away from among them , it is no sin , that the saints do not mourn , that the present ministers , who are confessedly good men , may be taken away from among them , it is their great sin , if they do not bless god for them , and pray for their establishment and good success in their ministry . that the ministry is devised by any other than god is not shewed : they that talk and write ignorantly , not ever reading the book of ordination , which shews what their ministry is , make invectives against them , and wildly wander from them upon false suggestions often to their perdition . that to hear them is not to partake with them in sin , is shewed in answer to this authors th . argument , chap. th . that their ministry is usurped , is not proved ; if it were , it might be a true ministry , which if it be , though it were usurped , it is not the sin , but may be the duty of him that exerciseth it . it follows , sect. . the example of the learned godly nonconformists is some inducement to hear the present ministers . object . . but many learned and good men ( and such as in conscience could not conform to the ceremonies of the church of england ) have in dayes past ( and do now ) hear the present ministers thereof . to which we answer , . that the greatest scholars , and most accomplished for humane wisdom , parts , yea visible holiness , have not been alwayes on the lords side , following him in paths of his own appointment ; but many times have been found the greatest persecutors and opposers of christ ; the most stupendiously ignorant of the will of god , in respect of the truth , and work of their generation , of any persons in the world : witness the scribes and pharisees , the learned rabbies , and profound doctors of that day , with what virulency did they oppose christ and the doctrine of the gospel preached by him ? . that persons of as great holiness , and renown for learning , and all manner of accomplishments , as learned ainsworth , cotton , &c. have been and are of the same apprehension with us in this matter : not to mention the reformed churches , who generally renounce the ministry of the church of england , not admitting any by vertue of it to the charge of souls ( as they speak . ) but . to the law and to the testimony , isa. . . if they speak not according to this rule , though angels for knowledge and holiness , they are not to be received or heeded : one word from the lord is of more weight to hearts made truly tender , than the example of an hundred professors can be : 't is possible these may err , be yea and nay ; but so cannot the truth of god , which is alwayes the same , and will abide so for ever . . the apostle hath long since determined this case , cor. . . be ye followers of me , as i am of christ : so far as saints follow christ , i may and ought to follow them , but no further : so that the learning parts or holiness of any that attend upon the present ministers of england , is no warrant for me so to do ; nor will ever be a satisfactory answer to that enquiry , who hath required these things at your hands ? i reply , it is not denied , that the most learned and zealous of the law , such as st. paul among the jews , the most excellent moralists among the gentiles , have been great enemies to the gospel afore their calling to the faith of christ , but the objection is of learned and good men among christians , who are never found the greatest persecutors and opposers of christ. possibly it may fall out , yea and it hath fallen out , that among christians the greatest scholars , and most ac●omp●●shed for humane parts , wisdoms , yea for visible holiness , have not been alwayes on the lords side , following him in paths of his own appointment , but have been stupendiously ignorant of the will of god in respect of the truth and work of their generation ; i think ●ardinal caietan was one of the greatest scholars of his time , yet saw not what luther saw , about justification by faith , and luther , though he did much in that point , yet saw not so much as calvin in the point of the re●l presence in the eucharist ; and therefore ( like well the d. and ●h . answer here , that we should adhere only to the law and to the testimony and be followers of the learned as they are of christ. yet i conceive , that it is a wicked course , which is taken by some , so to disparage learning , as if it were of no necessity , universities , as of no use , but rather seminaries of ungodliness , to say that men that have humane learning are the unlearned and unstable , which do wrest the scriptures , pet. . . as how the cobler a much followed preacher a great while ago in london vented in print , that learned scholars do make the scriptures as a nose of wax , are but juglers , and deceivers , which are too too often insinuated into the minds of well meaning , but weak minds , whereby they are more addicted to such as how , tillinghast , and other popular orators , and their injudicious discourses , if stuffed with fained words and earnest affections , then to the most solid proofs of the most learned , whose interpretations of scripture , and handling of controversies , have cleared the truth , and restored purity of doctrine to the great benefit of the church of god , which these people understand not . but it hapneth according to the saying , scientia n●minem hab●● inimicum nisi ignorantem . and sure though i would have no christian enslave his judgement to any man , it were that anthropolatria or sin of glorying in men forbidden , cor. . . against which i printed a little treatise in the the year ▪ foreseeing it would be the means of dividing christians into parties ; nor would i have that which is propounded by men of none or lesser learning rejected , because it is from them , one paph●utius may see that truth , which a whole council , though such as the first n●cene , without him did not discern , it was an evil spirit in matthaeus langius , that made him disdain to be taught by luther , as is related in the history of th● council of ●rent , god doth out of the mouth of babes and sucklings perfect praise , as our saviour matth. . . allegeth psal. . . against the priests and scribes indignation at the childrens saying hosanna : yet i would have such things examined by the learned , and godly , especially either their own pastors , or such as are found or reputed learned and judicious , and that as well what may be said against , as what is said for the thing vented be weighed , lest persons deceive themselves , as too often they do , by their propensity to take all for oracles , which is said by such as they do affect or magnifie . and surely in doubtful cases , and in points which are above the sphere of common capacities to determine , i mean such as require more insight in languages , history , arts , and other reading , than they can reach to by reason of defect in their natural abilities , educations , time to study , means of attaining the use of books , health or strength , it is a safe way to rest on the received practice and determination of their learned guides , whom they have reason to judge faithfull and able , and to be satisfied with their resolutions and reasons after a serious and modest arguing of the thing , though every scruple be not removed . as for that which is here said of ainsworth , cotton , &c. i think they that knew , and read what vssher , ball , gataker , and such like men were , will not believe it . mr. ainsworths differences between him and johnson , robinson ▪ and paget , and their writings , especially of this last , shew him to have been much short of what this author conceived of him . what mr. cotton was i do not rely upon mr. baylies dissuasive , but i think dr. twisse his answer to him about reprobation , mr. cawdrey about the keyes , that i mention no other , shewed him not such , as whose judgement might be safely rested in . and i scarce think either by the reading of his way of the churches in new england , or his commendation of mr. nortons answer to apollonius he could be of the same apprehension with this author in this matter . that the reformed churches generally renounce the ministry of the church of england , i think is a manifest untruth . the passages at the synod of dort , peter moulin his letter to bishop andrews , with many more of the like evidences of former and later times assure me this author is deceived . he adds . sect. . the magistrates command to hear , the present mininisters is to be obeyed . object . . but the magistrate commands us , and ought we not to obey magistrates . answ. . that magistrates have no power to command in matters of instituted worship , where christ is silent , or to govern in his church is affirmed by many . . the commands of magistrates , when contrary to the will and way of christ , are not to be subjected to . this case is long since stated and resolved by the apostle ( acts . , . and . ) and spirit of the lord , breathing long before in his renouned witnesses , dan. . , . and . . nor is it denyed by any that are sober , and judicious . whether the hearing of the present ministers of england be contrary to the word of god , the will and way of christ , we leave from what hath been offered , to the considerate reader to judge ; and shall only add what was long since asserted by augustin de verb domini serm. . in this matter , who was herein fully of the same mind with us ; sed timeo inquies ne offendas majorem , time prorsus ne offendas majorem , & non offendes deum . quid enim times ne offendas majorem ? vide ne forsan major sit isto qu●m times offendere . majorem certe noli offendere — quis est inquies major eo qui me genuit ? an ille qui teipsum creavit ? — qui enim resistit potestati , dei ordinationi resistit : sed quid si illud jubeat quod non debes facere ? — timendo potestatem ipsos humanarum rerum gradus advertite : si aliquid jusserit curator , nonne faciendum est ? tametsi contra proconsul jubeat , at non utique contemnis potestatem , sed eligis majori servire , nec hinc debet minor irasci , si major praelata est . rursum si aliquid ipse proconsul jubeat , & aliud jubeat imperator , numquid dubitatur in illo contemptu illi esse serviendum ? ergo si aliud imperator & aliud deus quid judicatis ? solve tributum , est mihi in obsequio recte ▪ sed non in idolio , in idolio prohibet , quis prohibet ? major potestas . da veniam ! tu carcerem , ille gehennam minatur . he tells us plainly that such as fear to offend their superiours , should much more fear to offend god , who is greater than all . the emperours and monarchs of the world , threaten us with a prison if we disobey them ; the lord threatens us with hell upon our disobedience of him . i reply , the brownists in their confession of faith , art . . say , princes and magistrates by the ordinance of god are supreme governours under him over all persons , and in all causes within their realms and dominions , and that it is their duty to enforce all their subjects whether ecclesiastical or civil to do their duties to god and men , protecting and maintaining the good , punishing and restraining the evil , according as god hath commanded , whose lieutenants they are here on earth ; and to prove this many texts are cited by them , of which confession mr. ainsworth said to be of the fame apprehension with this author in this matter , was a principal composer . in the apology of the non-conformists by irenaeus e●eutherius in the admonition to the reader , the kings supremacy is acknowledged . which hath been more largely proved before in this answer to the th . chapter of this book , sect. , , , . and though it be not yeilded , that princes should exercise ecclesiastical jurisdiction , or determine doctrines of faith , or impose what worship they will on the subjects , yet it is allowed by all i know except papists , that when the magistrate commands men to be present at the true worship of god , and to hear them that preach truth , he doth what he ought , and is to be obeyed therein . this author where in this chapter , p. . he supposeth christ enjoyning his disciples to attend upon the scribes and pharisees acting as magistrates , and conform to what is justly and righteously prescribed them as such , must yield this , that the saints are to obey the magistrate in this , unless he can shew , that it is an unlawfull thing to hear the present ministers , which he pretends he hath done , but how vainly is shewed by this answer , and so his answer here to this objection to be insufficient . and indeed it tends to the gratifying of popish recusants ▪ who alledge , for their not hearing , the non-conjunction with the pope and church of rome , as this author , doth the non-election and non-membership of the present ministers in a congregational church , to be in which as the only instituted church of christ , is made necessary , as papists do to be in communion with the church of rome : and therefore if it be unlawful to hear the present ministers , the papists have a just plea for their not coming to church ; which evacuates all the laws and government requiring it . it is added , sect. . conformists ministry hath been instrumental to convert souls . object . . but the ministers of england are true gospel-ministers , for they convert souls ; which the apostle makes the seal of his ministry or apostleship : therefore it is lawful to hear them . to this we say , . that the ministers of england are true gospel-ministers , is absolutely denyed by us ; what is offered in this objection proves nothing . . paul makes not the conversion of the church of corinth , singly , a sufficient demonstration , or convincing argument of his apostleship ; he only useth it , as what was most likely to win , and work upon their affections , who upon other accounts could not but know that he was an apostle of the lord jesus . . conversion of souls is no argument , either of a lawfull call to an apostleship , or ministry of christ. for , . many have converted souls , that were not apostles , as ordinary ministers . . the lord hath used private brethren , women , yea , some remarkable providences , as instruments in his hand for the conversion of many souls ; yet who will say that private brethren , women , or divine providences , are apostles or ministers of the lord jesus . but . should it be granted , that conversion of souls is an argument of a lawfull ministry , where are the churches , nay where are the particular persons converted by them ? we have not heard of any , nor will it be an easie task for the objectors to produce instances in this matter . i reply , that the ministers of england , who preach the gospel truely , are true gospel ministers , may be denied absolutely , but not justly , their preaching the gospel truely being it , which alone is the form denominating a minister a true gospel minister ; though more be required to his regularity . election by a congregational church , ordination by an eldership , or bishop , do not make a true gospel minister without it , and it doth it notwithstanding some other defects . but conversion of souls is no certain sign of a true gospel minister , or the defect of it an argument against it : nor do i alledge cor. . , . to prove either . yet when the gospel of christ is truly preached , and so blessed an effect follows on their labours , who do so , it is a good motive to the converted to hear them who have been instruments of their conversion , and is an engagement to them to follow their doctrine and conversation , cor. . , . heb. . . . thes. . , . and if this author , or any other do separate from them , who have been instruments of their conversion , and continue still to preach the gospel truly , because they abide in their station without renouncing episcopal ordination , or accepting of an election by a congregational church , they do it unwarrantably and injuriously . as for the words of the apostle cor. . , . the apostles aime is to shew he was as free , and might use his liberty as much as any other apostle , being as truly an apostle as any other , which might , besides other evidences , from the effect of his apostleship on them appear to them ; so that it is an argument of his apostleship , though not singly , not , as this author conceives , a motive to win upon their affections ; yet i think it an argument from and of some thing proper to the apostle , and the corinthians , and therefore would not meerly from conversion of souls , conclude a true gospel ministry in all that have been instruments therein . as for the demand , where are the churches , where are the particular persons converted by them ? it may perhaps be as justly demanded of this author , where are the churches or particular persons converted by the ministers of the congregational churches in old or new england , or holland ? mr. robert baylie of scotland in his dissuasive from the errors of the time , mr. thomas edwards in his gangraena tell stories of the fruit of separation , which i will not avow as true : yet so much of truth may be picked out of them , as may stop the mouths of them , that extoll those ministers , and decry the best of the conformists ; who yet have been , if not of late , yet heretofore fathers in christ to the members of the congregational churches , and to the most eminent in the churches of old or new england . but this disparagement of some , and extolling of others , is an odious course tending to nothing but promoting of faction , and weakning the hands of them that do the work of christ , and therefore do pray that this spirit of pride and bitterness may be extinguished , than in love we may serve one another , and that nothing be done out of strife and vain-glory , but that in lowliness of mind each may esteem others better than our selves . and i wish none had vented or read such criminations as those in the book entituled prelatical preachers none of christs teachers , in which he breaks out thus , p . they that were ●oundly right down without any abatement or need of explication , ministers of a prelatical ordination , have amongst them in matters of true religion , sound knowledge and piety towards god reduced the generality of the nation to a morsel of bread . all those idolatrous and superstitious conceits and practises , all the bloody ignorance and prophaeess , all that customary boldness in sinning , that hatred of goodness and good men , which are the nakedness and shame of the land , and render it obnoxious to divine displeasure , may justly call this generation of men either fathers , or foster fathers , or both , p. . he terms their ministry a ministry which is no where approved or sanctified by christ in his word , but obtruded upon christians with an high hand by those who are confederate both in spirit and in practise with the scarlet coloured beast , and drunken with the blood of the saints ( a description which belyeth not the prelatical priesthood and ministry , ) and then applies the description revel . . . to them , and the warning revel . . to those who joyn to them , p , . he makes the bishops to comply with antichrist in claiming and exercising a power of imposing on men what they please in matters of religion , or faith , and worship , under what penalties they please also , makes those ordained and ministers under them and by them to receive the mark of the beast , p. . though god did before the discovery of the evil of prelacy benefit souls by them , yet not after . but enough of this ; there remains yet that which follows , sect. . to the observation of the lords day , hearing the present ministers as the case now is , may be requisite . object . . but our ministers are removed , and we know not where to go to hear ; would you have us sit at home idle ? we cannot so spend the lords day . answ. to which we would humbly offer a few things . . that though we are not against any ordinance of jesus christ , yet we are afraid that those poor souls , that know not how to spend the lords day without hearing , do too much idolize that ordinance of god , and never knew what it was to spend that day with him . . you need not sit at home ; if you are enquiring after god , and communion with his people , you may soon hear of some one or other of the assemblies of the saints , whither you may repair to wait upon the lord with them . . but thirdly , were it , or should it be otherwise ; yet better be idle , than do worse ; better do nothing , than sin against god , encourage others in their evil deeds , pollute and wound thy own soul , grieve the saints , stumble and harden the wicked , and cause them to blaspheme his name , sanctuary , and such as dwell therein . but , . there is no necessity of being idle , if thou knowest not where to hear on that day , hast thou no work to do save that ? . art sure that god , and christ , and eternal glory , are thy portion and inheritance ? thou walkest in the light of assurance , or thou dost not ? if thou dost , is one day in seven too much to spend in the solemn admiration of grace , that ever so vile a creature as thou , should be accounted worthy of such unexpressible kindness and glory ? what , o what will eternity be then ? if thou dost not , are not these worthy of thy utmost diligence to get assurance of ? what , stand idle , and an interest in god , christ , and eternal glory to make sure of ! . art thou sufficiently acquainted with thine own heart ? dost know so much of thy self as thou needest to know ? or judgest thou this to be a work that requires not thy utmost diligence and attendance ? . hast thou no sin to be mortified , no want to be supplyed , no grace to be quickned and strengthned in thee ? , hast thou as much communion with god as thou desirest ? hast heard as often from him by the tea●hings of the spirit ( the incomparably and infinitely best teacher ) as thou dost wish ? or dost think that god will not manifest himself to , and teach in a corner , a poor soul that 's there waiting for him alone , because there be no assemblies of saints he knows of , to whom he might joyn himself , and he dares not have communion with adulterers ? if thou have not fellowship with god thou desirest , and teachings from him ( as who hath ) stir up thy self to lay hold on god , groan and cry after him , till he hath brought thee into his chambers , and afforded thee richer displayes of his glory . . art thou altogether ready trimmed ( without more ado ) for the coming and kingdom of christ jesus ? what should i mention those important duties of reading the scriptures , meditation on them , &c. hast thou all this to do , and much more that might be added , and yet nothing to do on the lords day ? set about these things in good earnest , and when thou livest in the light of assurance , without the least doubt or clouding , when thou art sufficiently acquainted with thine own heart , the will and scriptures of the lord ; when thou hast as much communion with god in retirement , as thou desirest , and teachings from his spirit ; when thou hast no sin to be mortified , nor grace to be quickened and strengthened ; when thou art quite ready for the day of christ , and needest no further fittings , we shall consider what may be further said to this objection ; but till then , it cannot be pleaded , when souls have all this work to do , that they must sit at home idle , if they go not to hear the preachers of this day . but thus far of the objections that are by some made against the assertion of the unlawfulness of attending upon the present ministers of england ; which are all of any moment we have yet met with : what of weight is in them , must be left to the judgement of the christian reader to determine . we shall add no more but this , that we have spoken our judgement and conscience herein , as in sincerity , in the sight of god : with what meekness , christian tenderness , and fear of giving any just offence to the truly conscientious , he knows . the sole of our aim in the whole is , that christ may be glorified in the recovery of any poor lamb , that is turned aside to the flocks of the companions in this cloudy and dark day ; that others that have hitherto kept themselves from idols , might be further established in the will of god , and strengthened to follow christ in his temptations , that they may inherit that kingdom and glory , prepared for them before the foundation of the world : may we but in the least contribute , by divine blessing , hereunto whatever becomes of these papers , or however they be by others accounted of , we have our end , and shall rest satisfied . i reply , this objection i find made not onely by some of the common sort of professors , but also particulaly by mr. crofton , and made by him as an argument , wherefore he did , and ought to joyn in hearing and praying in publick on the lords day , notwithstanding the defects in the ministerial mode and method of the publick ministers , the worship of god substantially existing in matter and essential form in their ministration , and the lords day being to be observed in publick as well as private , where , and when the ordinances cannot be enjoyed in a purer manner . his second in the book intituled , jerubbaal justified , doth reduce his plea to this syllogism . communion with the church visible in gods solemn publick worship , is an essential part of the sanctification of the sabbath , and indispensable duty . but communion with the english church , in the worship by her celebrated , is communion with the church visible in gods solemn worship . ergo , communion with the english church ( having no opportunity with any other ) in the worship of her celebrated , is to me an essential part of the sanctification of the sabbath , and indispensable duty . this syllogism is defended in that book , to which i refer the reader , and consider the objection as here it is urged and answered . the objection proceeds upon suppositions of the separatists , or independents , in the number of whom he is to be accounted , as appears by his wordes in this chapter , in answer to the th . objection , where he saith , learned ainsworth , cotton , &c. have been and are of the same apprehension with us in this matter . now in mr. cottons way of the churches of christ in new england , it is put into the definition of a visible church , that they are a number that may meet every lords day for all ordinances , and in the declaration of the elders and messengers of the congregational churches at the savoy , oct. . . ch . . art . . the sabbath is then kept holy to the lord , when men are taken up the whole time in the publick and private exercises of his worship , and in the duties of necessity and mercy . among these art . . the reading of the scriptures , preaching and hearing of the word of god are reckoned , and art . . god is to be worshipped as in private families daily , and in secret each one by himself , so more solemnly in the publick assemblies , which are not carelesly nor wilfully to be neglected or forsaken , when god by his word or providence calleth thereunto . upon which , and other suppositions , it concerns every tender conscience , which receiveth these principles , to consider how they can acquit themselves from not observing the lords day in publick assemblies , where god is invocated in the name of christ , and the word of god truly taught , especially in such places where they may enjoy these performed by the present ministers , and are deprived of their former ministers and communion , and cannot of themselves discharge these duties . that which this authour answers , doth not solve the doubt : that such persons conceive they cannot spend the lords day without hearing , is not out of any idolizing the ordinances of god ; but from those grounds which are by the declaration afore named , and the generality of zealous preacher , pressed upon christians , that it is one duty of sanctifying the lords day , not onely to abstain from labour , which makes onely sabbatum asinorum , a sabbath that beasts have as well as men ; nor onely to exercise themselves in reading and prayer at home , for that is every days duty ; but also to frequent the publick assemblies where god is worshipped , which this authour conceives injoyned , heb. . . and is gathered from exod. . . acts . . revel . . . cor. . . . john . . . that many persons cannot in many places find such assemblies of the saints , as this authour means , is a thing out of doubt with me . were publick hearing a sin , i confess it were better to do nothing than do that : but that is not yet proved , and i think it fit to acquaint the reader , that mr. norton of new england , in that answer to apollonius his questions , which is commended by mr. cotton , dr. thomas goodwin , mr. philip nye , and mr. sidrach simpson , ch . . doth thus determine , such things being observed as are to be observed , it may be lawful to use forms of prayers , administrations of sacraments , &c. prescribed in the church , neither are the churches which use them guilty of superstition , will-worship , and violating the second commandment ; yea , it is lawful to embrace communion with them , where such forms in the publick worship are in use : neither doth it lie as a duty on a believer , that he separate and disjoyn himself from such a church , unless he would partake in the superstitious worship of images . communion with a church , quâ utitur , as it useth worship of it self unlawful , is unlawful ; communion with a church quae utitur , which useth it , to wit , in other lawful worship , is lawful ; and separation from it , is unlawfull . and to shew how evil the counsel of this authour is to men to spend the lord's day in a corner idle at home , rather then go to hear in publick . i think good to subjoyn some words of mr john paget in his preface to the christian reader , before his book , intituled , an arrow against the separation of the brownists . of the brownists there are sundry sorts : some separate from the church of england for corruptions ; and yet confess both it and rome and it also to be a true church , as the followers of mr. johnson , christian plea , p. , . some renounce the church of england as a false church , and yet allow private communion with the godly therein , as mr. robinson justifie . p. , , . and his followers relig. com. p. . &c. some renounce all religious communion both publique and private with any member of that church whosoever , as mr. ainsworth counterpoy . pag. . and such as hearken unto him , being deepest and stiffest in their schism . the evil of this separation is great . first , the minds of many are troubled and distracted hereby ; even of such as do not separate , but have some liking thereof ; especially if it be true which mr. robinson writes of them , relig. comm . preface ; to wit , that they seeing it not to be for their purposes that the world should so esteem of them ▪ do undoubtedly strain and wring the neck of their consciences and courses , to look the contrary way ▪ &c. what can be more miserable then to have the necks of consciences thus broken by the doctrine of separation ? secondly , for those that separate , but do not yet joyn unto them , or being joyned ▪ do withhold from actual communion , living alone , and hearing the word of god in no church , as some do ; how great is their misery also ; mr. robinson himself , ibid. p. . . shews it at large , no●ing them to be idol-members , such as break the commandment of christ , loose the fruit of his ascension , and fail their own edification and salvation many ways , &c. thirdly ▪ for those that being enjoyned to them , do also live with them , seeing they have in effect excommunicate themselves from all other churches of christ ▪ and consequently from the fellowship of christ jesus himself , and from the participation of his grace and glory , so far as he reveals the same by dwelling in those churches : it is therefore no wonder to hear mr. johnson treat on matt. . preface a. . complaining of the evils among them , as emulation , debate , and other sins which daily arise and spread themselves to the great dishonour of god , &c. as for the directions given by this authour , how to spend at home the lords day , some of them are such as weak persons ; women and novices cannot make use of it , yea , they would be dangerous to them , occasioning them to fall into errours , enthusiastick conceits , some of them antinomians count unnecessary , and those that are good ; yet by the deprivation of society , and publick teaching , and heavily performed ; and they that take such courses , do either very frequently decay in the exercise of godliness , grow barren and liveless in prayer and holy conferences , or turn seekers , quakers , ranters , censurers , scoffers , libertines : however , were they all used , yet they solve not the doubt arising from those principles , which require publick hearing for hallowing the lords day ; which is to be observed not onely for the benefit of our own edification , but also for the glory of god , and testification of our profession ; which is not done by private exercise of religion . and although some persons may more benefit themselves in knowledge by reading at home , yet the example hinders others from the use of the publick ordinances , whereto we should by our practice encourage them . for these , and other reasons often urged by those , who have been for separation , it is not to be expected that such private exercises should be blessed or accepted of god , when the publick are to be performed . both certainly should be done in their seasons , not one exclude the other . i have thus answered all i find in this authour , and do joyn with him in referring the thing to the reader , who , if he will not cheat his own soul , must judge impartially , and without prejudice , weighing what is said on both sides . as for my aims and spirit in writing this thing , having found so little equity in mens censures of me about former writings , i can the less trust to any sort of mens good or bad of one or other opinion or judgement of me : my care i hope shall be , to approve my self to god , and to sollicite him by prayers for his blessing upon my labours in this thing : to which i shall add as over-measure , these ensuing arguments for hearing the present ministers as now the case is . sect. . an appendix , containing fourty additional reasons against denying the lawfulness of hearing the present ministers . first i argue for the lawfulness of hearing them preach the doctrine of the gospel , as it is professed in the church of england , from the definition of sin , which is a transgression of the law , john . . whence the apostle , rom. . . where no law is , that is , no law prohibiting that which is done , there is no transgression . whence i argue , that is lawful in which is no sin , in the hearing of the present ministers preach the doctrine of the gospel , as it is professed in the church of england , is no sin , therefore it is lawful . the major is undoubted , that being unlawful onely in which is sin according to the notion of the terms : the minor is proved ; because it is no breach of the law , there being neither any law of nature , nor any written law of the old or new testament , moral or positive , in express terms , or by good consequence against it . which is sufficiently proved by the answer to such arguments as are here brought to prove a prohibition of such hearing , and by requiring those that condemn it as unlawful , to produce the law which forbids it ; which yet is not done that we know . if it be said ( as it is by many of the people who scruple the doing of many things used in the publick worship as now it is ) that in gods worship it is not enough , that there is no law against what we do , but there must be also a command to do it , else it is will-worship . besides what i have answered in the examination of the first chapter of this treatise i add . that the alleadging of a command is not necessary to prove a thing lawful , but to prove it a necessary duty , it is sufficient to prove my present conclusion , that no law forbidding the hearing the present ministers can be produced . . that as express command may be shewed for hearing the present ministers , as for hearing the congregational ministers , at least those of them that are separatist , against whom there are more just exceptions then against the present conforming ministers of england , why they should not be heard : which leads me to a second argument for the lawfulness of hearing them ; which i thus form . . those ministers may lawfully be heard , against the hearing of whom by no exceptions , but such as are extrinsecal to the duty of hearing , as it is a part of gods worship . but so it is concerning the hearing of the present ministers : therefore they may be heard . the duty of hearing , as it is a part of gods worship , consists in this , that we apply our selves to learn the mind of god , by which we come to know and obey him : it is extrinsecal to this , that it be delivered to us by a good or a bad man ; a man in church-covenant or not , our proper pastour chosen by our selves , or imposed upon us ; and therefore such personal exceptions against the deliverer , are extrinsecal to the duty of hearing or non●hearing , if he declare gods mind to us , we may worship god in hearing , though the preacher sin in his conversation , or entrance on his ministery , or be otherwise faulty , if he be faithful in delivering the truth of god to us : though other things make one mans teaching more desirable , or more delightful , or useful to us , yet the defect of them makes not our hearing his teaching unlawful , who teacheth the word of god truly , because we may thereby learn gods mind , in applying our selves whereto is his worship by hearing . . this is further proved in that where there are any prohibitions which restrain us from hearing any teachers , it is because of their doctrine : which is an argument , that in hearing others that teach true doctrine , or the truth of gods word , we are at liberty to hear them , and consequently the present ministers supposed to do so . the antecedent is verified by inspection of these , deut. . . matt. . . mark . . and such other texts as cautionate men from hearing teachers . whence may be inferred : that 's not unlawful for us , from which gods cautions restrain us not ; but from hearing the present ministers supposed to teach the truth of gods word , gods cautions restrain us not : therefore it is not unlawful to hear them . . it is the character or property of one that is of god , or is a sheep of christ , to hear gods word , or christs voice without limiting it to some persons , john . . he that is of god , heareth gods word , john . . my sheep hear my voice . whence i argue , that is not unlawful which may be a duty , and a characteristical property of one that is of god or christs sheep . but to hear the present ministers , being supposed to teach the word of god , and the voice of christ , may be a duty , and a characteristical property of one that is of god , or christs sheep . therefore it is not unlawful to hear them , being supposed to teach the word of god , and the voice of christ. . from the same scriptures it may be argued thus , that may be unlawful which may be a sign of one that is not of god , nor of christs sheep ; but not to hear the present ministers , when they teach the word of god , and the voice of christ may be a sign of one that is not of god : for christ saith , john . . ye therefore hear them not , because ye are not of god , nor a sheep of christ , who saith , john . . but ye believe not , because ye are not of my sheep , as i said unto you . therefore it may be unlawful not to hear the present ministers , and consequently lawfull to hear them . . to refuse to hear the word of god , though delivered by the present ministers , is profaneness , such as is condemned in esau. heb. . . for it is the rejecting , or neglecting of a holy thing , as it is termed by our lord christ , matth. . . therefore it may be unlawful to shun hearing them , and consequently lawful to hear them . . the word of god is a pearl of great price , matt. . . such as a merchant man should sell all he hath to buy , matth. . . a great treasure , v. . therefore to be heard and received by whomsoever held forth , and consequently it is folly and sin to shun hearing it , because of personal exceptions against the bringer , as it would be folly to refuse a treasure found in a dunghill , or a pearl brought by an unworthy person . . if the word of god preached by the present ministers , may be effectual for that good , which is the end wherefore it is preached , then it may be lawfully heard from them , or rather ought to be heard according to that precept , james . . receive with meekness the ingraffed word , which is able to save your souls , pet. . , . desire the sincere milk of the word , that ye may grow thereby . but the word of god preached by the present ministers , may be thus effectual : for the efficacy of it comes not from the personal qualifications of the preacher , but from the verity of it , it 's derivation from god , his promise and blessing ; and however sepatists have declaimed against such ministers , and suggested to their partisans , as if no good could be gotten by hearing them ; yet experience hath proved the contrary : and therefore they are to be heard . finis dat mediis ordinem mensuram & amabilitatem . the hearing of them is an ordinary means of hearers edification in the faith and obedience of christ , and therefore is not unlawful , but to be made use of . . that is not unlawfull , the neglect of which may be the occasion and reason of a mans condemnation , it is the condemnation of a person , john . . that he comes not to the light . but the present ministers holding forth the light , mens not hearing them , is not coming to the light , and so much the more dangerous , if by not hearing them , they are deprived of any other to bring the light to them , as it may , and perhaps doth fall out at some times ; and in some places : therefore the neglect of hearing them may be the occasion and reason of a persons condemnation , and so a damnable sin in them that refuse to hear them , and in those that deter others from hearing them . . the words of peter , john , . . lord to whom shall we go ? thou hast the words of eternal life , include in them this proposition , we may go to them , as to teachers of us , who have the words of eternal life ▪ but the present ministers who teach the gospel of christ , have the words of eternal life : for it contains his words , and is the power of god to salvation , from the matter of it . rom. . , . mighty through god to bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of christ , cor. . , . therefore we may go to the present ministers , who teach the gospel of christ , and hear them as our teachers . . the apostle paul , th●s : . . writes thus : for this cause also thank we god without ceasing , because when ye received the word of god which ye heard of us , ye received 〈◊〉 not as the words of men , but ( as it is in t●●th ) the wo●d of god , which effectually worketh also in you that believe . whence i thus argue , if the word of god be to be heard as his word , and not as the word of men , then it is sufficient for right hearing , that we attend to the preaching of it , without consideration of the personal qualifications of the men that deliver it ▪ and consequently we need not decline hearing of preachers that deliver it , though otherwise liable to exceptions ; yea , it is our duty to hear any men preach it without questioning any thing , but whether it be the word of god , and it is evil to refuse to hear it , because of our disaffection and prejudice against the preachers ; and accordingly it is enough to justifie the hearing of the present ministers , that they preach the word of god , and that we hear them as teaching it . for quatenus ipsum inc●udes de omni , if we may , yea ought to hear the word of god , as gods word , we may and ought to hear it at any time , from any person ; and if we do not hear it under this consideration , we hear amiss , and worship not god in hearing . but the word of god is to be heard as gods word , as is evident from st. pauls thanksgiving that the thessalonians so heard it , and not as the word of men , though preached by himself , who ascribes the efficacy of it to this consideration in their hearing . therefore it is sufficient for right hearing ▪ that we attend to the preaching of gods word , without consideration of the personal qualifications of them that deliver it ; and consequently we may rightly hear the present ministers preaching gods word , though without such personal qualifications as are required of them . . the same is further proved by the holy ghosts approbation of the practice of the beraeans , neighbours to the thessalonians , acts . , . these were more noble then those in thessalonica , in that they received the word with all readiness of mind , and searched the scriptures daily , whether these things were so ; therefore many of them believed . whence i argue , they may be right hearers of the present ministers , who may hear them as the beraeans did ; which proposition is confirmed , in that the holy ghost gives them the commendation of right hearers , in that they received the word with all readiness of mind , and searched the scriptures daily , whether the things taught by st. paul were agreeable thereto , without examining his commission to preach , or other qualifications of his person ; yea , and this is made the reason of their believing : and therefore the word of god is sufficient to beget faith , because of it's agreeableness to the scripture , and hath most success when hearers hear it with respect to it's congruity to the holy scripture , and not because delivered by such men as they approve of . but thus may christians hear the present ministers of england , and therefore may be right hearers of the present ministers ; and consequently they that do so , do lawfully hear them ; and they that hear their ministers out of other particular respects , and not in this manner , hear not rightly , nor doth their hearing edifie them in the faith of christ , but tends to inordinate glorying in men , and to division consequent thereon . . from our lord christs word : luke . ▪ . and john answered and said , master , we saw one ca●ting out devils in thy name , and we forbade him , beca●se he followe●h not with us . and jesus said into him , forbid him not ; for he that is not against us , is for us . i gather , that christ would not have him forbidden to preach , who preached in his name , though he were not joyned to christs disciples . for though the acting in christs name expressed , 〈◊〉 onely using his name to expell devils , yet by using his name there was some preaching of christ , and the words mark . . for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name , that can lightly speak evil of me , and the occasion both mark . . and luke . ▪ immediately foregoing , whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name , receiveth me : and whosoever shall receive me , receiveth not me , but him that sent me ; and christs reason , forbid him not : for he that is not against us , is for us , shew that christs words are at well meant of preaching in his name , as of casting out devils , at least the reason of them is of like force for the not prohibiting of men to preach in his name , as to cast out devils : whence i argue , they may be heard preach in christs name , who are not to be forbidden to preach in christs name ▪ but the present ministers of england are not to be forbidden to preach in christs name ; therefore they may be heard preach in christs name . the major is of it self evident , there being no reason to be given why they that are allowed to preach in christs name , should not be heard by the same allowance , allowance to preach being vain and frivolous , without allowance for others to hear . the minor is also proved by parity of reason , for allowing them to preach as well as those who cast out devils in christs name , yet joyned not with the disciples , sith so doing they did not speak evil of christ , nor were against him , but for him , nor is there so much reason of prohibiting the ministers to preach in christs name , because they are not in a separated church , nor elected by the members thereof , as there was of prohibiting them that followed not with the apostles to cast out devils in christs name . if christ would not have these forbidden to do a miracle in his name , neither would he have the other forbidden to preach in his name , which they do in effect , who make it unlawfull to hear them . . i shall adjoyn to this , that our saviour , matth. . , . where he alleageth the plea and expectation of formal hypocrites , he doth not reject them for prophesying in his name , but for their working iniquity , thereby shewing , that he allowed their prophesying in his name as good , though not sufficient without obedience . whence i argue , if their prophesying in christs name who were workers of iniquity , then much more their teaching in christs name , who are only supposed to be defective in outward calling , or faulty in some actions consistent with christianity , is to be allowed , and if their teaching be allowed , then the hearing of them is by consequence allowed : for these are conjugates . . our lord christ saith luke . . concerning the seventy disciples , he that heareth you heareth me , and he that despiseth you despiseth me , and he that despiseth me , despiseth him that sent me . the reason hereof is , because they preached the same doctrine : if if there be an outward mission , and the same doctrine which christ taught is not preached , christ is not heard , but when the same doctrine is heard which christ taught , he is heard , and if it be rejected , he is despised . whence i argue , they may be lawfully heard , by hearing of whom we may hear christ. but by hearing of the present ministers who preach the doctrine of christ , we hear christ , therefore we may hear the present ministers who preach the d●●trine of christ. the reason of the minor is from that speech 〈◊〉 christ , john. . . my doctrine is not mine , but his that sent 〈◊〉 , in the preachers doctrine which he preacheth after christ , is not his own , but christs who sent him , as an embassadours message is his kings , not his own , and by hearing him deliver it according to his commission , his master is heard . . this is further confirmed from rom. . . and how shall they preach except they be sent ? as it is written , how beautifull are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace , and bring glad tydings of good things . the citation of these words to prove , that they cannot preach who are not sent , doth presuppose , . that they who preach the gospel of peace , that bring the glad tydings of good things , are sent to preach , and that by hearing of it comes faith , and that the word of god is heard , else were the citation impertinent , and the inference v. . inconsequent . . that their feet are beautifull , and that they are to be heard in this respect . but i subsume the present ministers , who preach the doctrine they undertake to teach , preach the gospel of peace , and bring the glad tydings of good things , therefore are they sent , their feet are beautifull , and are to be heard . . in the parable of the talents , matth. . . or pounds , luke . . our saviour saith the kingdom of heaven is as when a noble man goes into a farr country , gives his servants his money to trade with , and they are to gain more thereby , cor. . . . the gifts of the spirit are given to profit withall , in which are reckoned the word of wisdome , of knowledge , teachers v. , . ephes. . . for the ed●fying of the body of christ in the unity of the faith , and of the knowledge of the son of god. whence it is apparent , . that ability to teach the things of christ , to edifie the body of christ is a gift of christ , . that they who do use this ability do it unto christ's advantage according to his design . . that not to improve this gift is to disappoint christ of his end in giving it , . for any to hinder this improvement is sinfull . whence i argue : they that have ability to preach the gospel have received a talent from christ to improve it , their improving is by preaching , this cannot be done unless they be heard , therefore the not hearing them makes voyd the use of that gift . the present ministers who preach the gospel have received this gift , and by preaching do use i● , therefore they are to be heard , and the not hearing them is to d●sable them from improving it , and consequently is a sin against christs designe . as from the end of christs gifts , so from the duty of them that have received them we may prove , that the present ministers are to be heard , pet. . . as every man hath received the gift , even so minister the same one to another , as good stewards of the manifold grace of god. if any man speak , let him speak as the oracles of god. whence i argue ; if the present m●nisters have received a gift to speak the oracles of god , then are they to minister the same , and consequently to be heard . this is acknowledged by this author ch . . in these words ; that christ hath appointed some , as ministers , by vertue of an office power , to dispense the ordinances of the gospel , untill his second coming , is granted by all , that 't is permitted to others , as their liberty ; enjoyned them , as their duty ( having received gifts and enablements from the lord thereunto ) to improve those gifts in preaching , praying , &c. for the edification of the body of christ ( though not solemnly invested into office ) is assented unto , at least by some of those with whom we have to do ; whence a lawfulness to hear them as ministers ▪ or as gifted brethren doth necessarily arise . but the present ministers have received a gift to speak the oracles of god , as experience shews , and that equally , if not beyond the teachers of the congregational churches , and they are to minister the same , which cannot be done unless they be heard , and therefore are to be heard . when is opposed against this is answered in the examination of the second chapter of this book . . that the present ministers may be heard preach the gospel , is further proved from cor. . . where it is said to the corinthians against their addicting themselves to some teachers rather than others , whether paul or apollos , or cephas , or the world , or life , or death , or things present , or things to come ; all are yours . they are said to be theirs , because they had interest in the use of of them , and the use of the teachers was their hearing them , any of them , though not their particular pastour , and one of them , to wit apollos his setting a part to that function is not recorded , and however he did teach , and was to be heard acts . , , . afore he was ordained to be a preacher , or fully knew the way of god. whence i infer , that every christian hath an interest in every preacher of the gospel , that no minister is to be accounted 〈◊〉 peculiar to any party of christians so as to be impropriated by them , that the ability of every one may be used by any though not their proper minister , nor perhaps regularly ordained , and therefore the present ministers of england may be heard by any saints , while they teach the gospel , though such irregularities , as are objected against them , were granted to be in them or their ministry . . from the same scripture i collect , that the practise of this author in disclaiming the ministry of those , who are not either officers in a gathered church in the congregational way , or gifted brethren members in such a church , though otherwise good men , and able diligent preachers , and adhering only to those of their own society , is glorying in men forbidden by the apostle , cor. . . and contrary to what he saith , cor. . . and these things brethren , i have in a figure transferred to my self and to apollos for your sakes , that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written , that no one of you be puffed up for one against another . wherein the apostle dissuades from such esteem of some ministers above others , as to overprize some , elevating some , and disparaging others , following some , and flighting others , though teachers of truth . which sin i deprehended long ago to be in this land , chiefly in the capital city thereof , and therefore discovered it in a sermon in one of the most eminent auditories thereof many years before ; and printed it in the year . with this title , anthopolatria , or the sin of glorying in men , especially in eminent ministers of the gospel , and i wish i had not been too prophetical therein . i do now wish that this author , and such others as magnifie their own teachers , or tie men to them , and draw them off from hearing other ministers , because conformists , though teachers of the gospel , did by scanning these texts see their errour and evil . it is true chrysostom and hierom on cor. . . and many other interpreters conceive a fiction , as if the apostle paul had transferred that to the persons of the apostles , which did agree to the false apostles , being moved by the words , cor. . . which it is likely our translators conceived by their reading , i have in a figure transferred these things to my self . at which pareus marvai●● in his commentarie on cor. . . and i give reasons against it in my sermon forenamed sect. . conceiving the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not to note a rhetorical figure of speech , but application as the outward habit is to the body , and the things applied are either , as pareus , what he had said , cor. . . that he which planteth is nothing , and he which watereth is nothing , or , as i rather conceived then , what is said cor. . . that they were ministe●s of christ and stewards of the mysteries of god , christian berman exerci● . theolog. . intelligit metaphoram ministri , oeconomi , villici , & hortu●an , he m●ans the metaphor of a minister , steward , husbandman , gardiner : which confirms my argument against the separating principle of those that forbid the hearing of the present ministers , though stewards of the mysteries of god , planters , waterers , builders , and tie men to hear those only who are their elected ministers or gifted brethren , which is glorying in men , and tends to puff up for one against another . . the apostle , cor. . . saith , let a man so account of us as of the ministers of christ , and stewards of the mysteries of god. thess ▪ . , ● . and we beseech you , brethren , to know them which labour among you , and are over you in the lord , and admonish you , and to esteem them very highly in love for their works sake , and be at peace among your selves . tim. . . let the elde●s that rule well be counted worthy of double honour , especially they who labour in the word and doctrine . heb. . . remember your rulers or guides who have spoken to you the word of god. wh●ch texts do shew who are to be accounted true ministers , to wit , such as are stewards of the mysteries of god , who labour in the word and doctrine , who spake unto us the word of god , what account should be made of them , they are to be esteemed highly , honoured ▪ remembred , and for what reason , for their work sake , not for particular respects only , as our election of them , our opinion of their parts , our affection to them as of our party . now i suppose the present ministers of england are stewards of the mysteries of god in dispensing the gospel truly , that they speak the word of god to the people , that they labour in the word and doctrine , and therefore are to be accounted ministers ▪ and to be esteemed , honoured , remembred for their work sake : and therefore much more are to be heard who are such , for this reason however otherwise defective . the main of this , that they speak the word of god is so manifest that it is not denyed , what is gainsaid is answered before : and therefore : judge the denying the saints liberty of giving them audience , and most of all the 〈◊〉 against them are great sins against these precepts , the th . commandement and other precepts , as acts . . st. paul conceived . . the precept , thess. . . and be at peace among your selves , a●ded to that of esteeming them in love who admonish them for their wo●k sak● , gives me occasion to annex this further reason , why the present ministers should be heard : because it tends to peace among christians , and the not hearing them ; especially upon the principles of separation is from disunion , is schism , or tends to it contrary to that peace , unity , and love which should be among christians , who have the same god , lord , spirit , faith , hope , and are , or should be joyned in one body with all christians , from whom there should be no schism , cor. , , . the schism in the church of corinth did arise from the affecting of , and addicting themselves to some teachers with relinquishment , if not disclaiming of others , as appears by that which is said cor. . . every one of you saith i am of paul , and i of apollos , and i of cephas , and i of christ : whereupon there were among them envying and strife , and division , cor. . . and they sorted themselves into companies severed from others , as may be gathered from cor. . , . and that about the lords supper , v. . . now the not hearing of the present ministers and the separation from the churches that hear them , and adhering only to their own teachers and churches according to the principles of the separatists is either the same , or very like the schism , or division among the corinthians , or tends to it , and hath begotten , and is like to beget the same , if not worse , effects among the christians in england , as were in the church of corinth , and therefore it is to be censured to be alike evil , as the schism among the corinthians , and is reckoned gal. . , . among the works of the flesh excluding out of the kingdom of god. what is alledged by this authour to justifie such separation is answered before . that which dr. john owen hath in his book of schism , tending to acquit such separation from the crime of schism , or to difference it from that which was the evil among the corinthians , hath been examined by mr. daniel cawdrey . that notion which is appropriated to the corinthian schism , as if it were onely division in the same particular church , and not separation from others not joyned in the same particular congregation , or such congregational church , is not agreeable with what the apostle delivers , cor. . . and . , . rom. . , . ephes. . . ephes. . , , . ephes. . . col. . . . whereby every christian believer where-ever is counted of the same body , to which they should be joyned in love , peace , mutual affection , and correspondent endeavours for their good , and if the apostle cor. . . expresly count it a schism in the body when any christian doth neglect another , and not take care of another , much more is it schism , when christians separate wi●hout necessary cause from communion with others , and more specially , when they disclaim them that are teachers of the word of god , as if christ were divided , as st. paul speaks , cor. . . . st. james in his epistle ch . . . writes thus , my brethren , have not the faith of our lord jesus christ the lord of glory with respect of persons , and he expresseth himself by instance , that they preferred the rich before the poor , in placing them in their assemblies , and taxeth them therefore as partial in themselves , and judges of evil thoughts . now to hear one that preacheth the faith of christ because he is of our particular society , or by reason of particular interest , or agreement in opinion , or any other then the unity of faith in the lord jesus , and to disclaim hearing another , that hath the same faith , preacheth it , and holds communion with them that embrace it , and to separate from such , to despise or oppose such , is to have the faith of our lord jesus christ with respect of persons for other reasons then their faith , and therefore is condemned by st. james as evil . . st. paul rom. , . writes thus , now i beseech you brethren , ma●k them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned , and avoyd them . but those who teach men not to hear their ministers , which preach to them the truth of gods word , because they are not in a congregational church , or not elected or ordained according to the rules of such churches , or because they conform to some things conceived unwarrantable ( which are made the reasons of unlawfulness to hear the present ministers who preach the gospel ) do cause offences and divisions contrary to the doctrine , rom. . . . rom. . . &c. rom. . . &c. therefore their doctrine is to be avoyded . . the apostle cor. . . speaks thus , what ? came the word of god out from you ? or came it unto you only ? which seems to reprehend the conceits whether schismatical or arrogant , as if the word of god were from them as the onely right teachers , or confined to them as the only persons , to whom it was communicated , and from whom it might be received , and so condemns such supposed inclosures by any church or company of teachers . but such conceits and inclosures they have and make ▪ who deny the present ministers are to be heard , conceiving the separated churches , and ministers , the only right churches and ministers to be heard . . the apostle philip. , . writes thus , let us therefore , as many as be perfect , be thus minded : and if in any th●ng ye be otherwise minded , god sh●ll reveal even this unto you , tha● is , as many of you as are well instructed in the christian doctrine ( for so the word is used cor. . . co● . . . h●b . . being opposed to children and babes that is w●ak in th● faith , rom. . . ) l●t them be minded as i am , which he had expressed before in the chapter from v. . to v. . and if any through weakness ●n faith be otherwise minded , as those rom. . . that thought mosaical laws were yet obligatory , god would in time reveal this to be their liberty , whic● i now judge to be mine ▪ nevertheless , saith he , whereto ye have already attained , let us walk by the same rule , let us mind the same things . which requires christian communion without separation notwithst●nding such difference , and consequently condemns separation from minister● or christians by reason of diversity of judgement about church government and liturgy , and different practise about conformity or non-conformity to them , which are of less moment than those differences about meats and dayes , and therefore notwithstanding them , there should be walking together in preaching , hearing , praying , and other duties of christian communion . . the holy ghost hath recorded the prophesie of ●alaam , numb . . , . &c. of caiaphas john ● . , . yea the sayings of greek infidel idolatrous poets cited by st. paul , as the words of aratus acts . ▪ of menander cor. . of epim●nides , titus . . which shews the lawfulness of reading , hearing , and making use of true sayings of any though neither true ministers of christ , nor believers , but idolaters and wicked enemies to the faith much more may the books be read , and the sermons heard of such learned men , or preachers , as clear and deliver the word of god notwithstanding dissent , or disconformity to others about liturgy and church discipline . . the apostle thess. . , . requires christians not to despise prophesyings , but to prove all things : to hold fast that which is good . st. john epist. chap. . beloved believe not every spirit , but try the spirits whether they are of god ; they make it not sin meerly to hear them that are erroneous if they try them , they may hear pretenders prophesying if they prove it , much more those ministers who preach the truth ; it is each christians duty to try their doctrine , nor their sin to hear their sermons . . this authour himself , ch . . in the words before cited , alowed the hearing of gifted brethren , though not solemnly invested into office ; nor do i think he would think it unlawful to hear parents or masters catechize , or readers in the university , when they read divinity lectures , or dispu●e in divinity schools ; and therefore by a like reason must allow the hearing of such ministers , who preach the gospel , and are found in the faith , and are regularly ordained according to the discipline of that church in which they live , and are taken for true ministers , by the godly and learned at home , and the most able and pious pastours and brethren of the reformed churches abroad . . the reasons of this authour , and other separatists , against hearing the present ministers , may be retorted against themselves . mr. william bradshaw having answered mr. francis johnsons arguments to prove this conclusion [ it is not lawful to hear or have any spiritual communion with the present ministry of the church-assemblies of england ] added reasons or arguments tending to prove , that it is a sin to separate from the publick ministry of the church-assemblies of england : directly contrary to mr. johnsons own reasons , and usually in that regard , made in the same mood and figure , which are to be seen in the unreasonableness of the separation , p. . &c. printed . in mr. gatakers rejoynder against the reply of mr. john canne . and as for this authours . arguments , it were no hard matter to prove [ that the ministers of the separated churches are not to be heard ] by some , if not by all the middle terms he hath used to prove [ that the present ministers of the church of england are not to be heard . ] as for instance , that they come not in by the door , but climb another way , by usurping ministry without any regular ordination by other ministers , that they walk disorderly in separating themselves from true churches , they have antichristian names or titles , in being called masters , that they deny christs offices in submitting to , and imposing orders or ordinances about worship , not appointed by christ , as church-covenant , paedobaptism , &c. that they are false prophets , that deny them to be true churches of christ , who hold the faith of christ , that some commands of the ceremonial law of moses , are rules to us christians , that they are babylon , and antichristian in their constitution , and their practice in dividing from other churches , not submitting to their teachers , those who have begotten them through the gospel , without any well setled order among themselves , that they therefore long agree not , but crumble into many small companies , and sometimes take them to be members of their churches who dwell in remote places ; so that their gathered churches extend as far some times as a bishops diocess , that they ascribe the power of the keys to the whole church , confound governours and governed , allow men not set apart to that function , to teach publickly , and that frequently , if not constantly , those to take upon them to prophesie , who are no prophets , that they scandalize their brethren , their governours by their invectives , that they partake of the sins of others , in allowing them to usurp that power which christ hath not committed to them , that they cast contempt upon the ways of christ , to wit , the prayers and preaching of the ministers of the church of england ; that they go to the places of false worship , as mr. iohn paget in his arrow against the separatists proves against ainsworth , that they cannot expect a blessing from god upon their separation , it having no promise of god , but is against the union that should be among christians ; that it is a step to apostacy , is a forsaking of the assembly of the saints ; to refuse to hear the present ministers , and to joyn in prayers with them , and too much experience hath proved what backsliding , if not to popery , yet to other errours of antinomians , familists , quakers , seekers , ranters , hath been the fruit of separation . but i forbear recrimination , and touching the sore , which i rather desire may be healed , and that our breaches may be made up , and not widened , to which this authours reasonings tend . . the grounds upon which this authour and other separatists deny the lawfulness of hearing the present ministers , are either false or doubtful ; as , that nothing is to be done in the worship of god , and church-discipline , without a particular institution ; that onely a congregational church is of christs institution ; that a true ministry cannot be in a false church ; that a prescibed form of prayer by men , is unlawful ; that we may not use any thing in gods worship , which hath been composed by popes , or used in the church of rome , with many more ; whereof many are shewed in this answer to be false , or uncertain , and insufficient for this authours separation , and the fallacy of them manifested in so ▪ many other treatises of conformists and non-conformists extant in print , that i need not add any more in this place . . on the other side the ministers of the church of england , have so sufficiently proved the truth of their ministry against papists and separatists , and so firmly by wrirting and otherwise , opposed popery , even the prelates , whom the separatists do so much cry down as antichristian , popish , &c. that were not men resolved never to lay down a calumny they have once taken up , they would lay this down , and forbear pressing separation upon such exceptions , and imputations as this authour hath gathered together in this his dung-cart , to furnish the inconsiderate , though perhaps otherwise well-minded in matters of religion , to cast into their faces . ▪ if it be not lawful to hear the present ministers , because they are not rightly elected , ordained , in and by a congregational church , according to christs institution ( as this authour conceives ) or because they use the common-prayer-book , are faulty in their lives , or some evil consequences , as offence of some saints , contempts of some ways of god , by accident ensue thereupon , then it will follow that every hearer , before he hears a minister ; must . be able to judge of the validity of these reasons , whether they can warrant his not hearing . . he must be able to judge every minister or preacher he hears , whether he be rightly thus elected , ordained , or qualified . . he must actually examine him afore he hears him . . he must have power either to silence or withdraw from him , if he be not so qualified , and must use that power . but . such ability is not in every hearer , nor indeed is it as the estate of things in this life is , ordinarily possible it should be . . then ministers preaching and ministry should be at the will of their auditors . for , if one may forbear hearing , all may upon the same reason , and so the minister be silenced or deprived for want of hearers . . this would put power in hearers over their ministers , and overthrow all church-government . . it would introduce greater oppression of ministers , then either prelats or their canons bring upon them . . even the ministers of congregational churches would be in danger of being deserted by their members , their maintenance withdrawn , they exposed to penury and other grievances , as well as conforning ministers . nor do i think , but that many even of them have found the bitter fruits of such popular licentiousness out of such principles of separation , as well as others . . nor can there be any setled order of government in church or civil state , if the stated ministers or magistrates according to the present laws , though perhaps in some things unjust , yet in the main upholding truth of faith and worship , and the publick good , should be deserted or disobeyed ▪ because every hearers or subjects conscience or minde is not satisfied . such a plea as is made by these men , is made by papists for their recusancy , that the ministers of the church of england are not rightly called , that they are in a schism , with other the like objections ; and then if the plea of the separatists be allowed , they have this advantage , that they should not be urged to hear the ministers , nor have the penalties of recusancy imposed on them . i say not that this reason would reach to the toleration of their priests and mass , but onely if such a plea should be allowed , why the present ministers should not be heard , the same , or the like justifies the papists for not hearing them , and condemns the inflicting penalties for recusancy , because , if this authour say true , it is unlawful to hear the present ministers . the same may be said in behalf of quakers , seekers , profane persons , ignorant people , they are not to be required to hear the ministers , if it be unlawfull ; and so the magistrate should sin if he command them to hear , though mr. robinson himself in his justification of separation , pag. . as printed in the year . writes thus . that godly magistrates are by compulsion to repress publick and notable idolatry , as also to provide that the truth of god in his ordinance , be taught , and published in their dominions , i make no doubt : it may be also it is not unlawful for them by some penalty or other , to provoke their subjects universally unto hearing , for their instruction , and conversion ; yea to grant they may inflict the same upon them , if after due teaching they offer not themselves unto the church . . that position which takes away a considerable and important part of christians liberty , and puts a yoke on their ne●ks grievous to be born , is not to be received , it being contrary to that which the apostle chargeth on christians , that they should stand fast in the liberty wherewith christ hath made us free , and not be again intangled with the yoke of bondage . gal. . . ye are bought with a price , become ye not the servants of men , cor. ● . . but , if we hold it unlawful to hear the truth of gods word taught by the present ministers , we let go our liberty of hearing , which christ hath not debarred us of , and make our selves servants to some whom alone we might hear , to the insharing of us if they err , so as that we may not hear them who may free us : which is no small bondage to a christian , and tends to the calling rabbines or masters , forbidden matt. . , and is an artifice by which papists and others have still held people from discerning their errours , and kept them in dependence on them , and adherence to their party : therefore it should not be received by us . . there is a negative superstition , when men abstain from some things , under a notion of religion , or worship of god , which are not forbidden by god , but left free and indifferent : either not forbidden , or , if once they were , now antiquated or outdated : and of this so●● was that col . . touch not , taste not , handle not ; which was superstitious negative will-worship , as mr. cawdrey in his treatise of superstition , sect . writes . this the apostle v. . blames as being dogmatized , or yielding to mens ordinances , as living in the world , not dead with christ from the elements of the world , though it have a shew of wisdom in will-worship , such was that of the pharisees in not eating till they had washed their hands , observing the tradition of the elders condemned by christ , mark . . as teaching doctrines the commandments of men ; which he counts worshipping god in vain , and it hath these evil effects , . that it occasions the neglect of gods commands . . it bege●s unnecessary perplexities in mens spirits . . it puffs men up with conceit of more holiness then others . . makes them censorious of those that are not as scrupulous as themselves , as if they were loose and profane . that such is the opinion of the unlawfulness of hearing the present ministers , as it is maintained by this authour , i suppose is manifested by the answer and reasons foregoing ; and that it hath the evil effects here named , is too evident , by experience , in the neglect of the publick communion in worship , and other duties of love to them with whom communion in publick worship is not held , in the doubts and opinions of not observing the present ministers with any respect , nor paying them dues imposed by law , in conceiving themselves the saints , others antichristian , with many bitter taunts , scoffs , reproaches , revilings , tales of and against them , contrary to the fruits of the spirit of god mentioned , gal. . . therefore it is not be to received . . hereto is to be added , that upon the same suppositions the opinion of denying the lawfulness of hearing the present ministers , as it is asserted by this authour , is an usurpation of christs regal office , in putting a law on the consciences of men , arrogating that power which is proper to that one lawgiver who is able to save and destroy , james . . binding heavy burthens and grievous to be born , and laying them on mens shoulders , matt. . imitating therein pharisaical pride , and papal dominion , and such other practises as they condemn in others . they that condemn those that permit not them to preach , who will not use ceremonies , are guilty of the like imposition , who permit not christians to hear preachers of the gospel , unless they be in a congregational church , and be called by them ; and while they charge others with adding to the word the inventions of men , are themselves guilty thereof . . nor is it a light matter , but to be well pondered , that by this means the knowledge of the word of god is much hindred , and thereby the furthering of the kingdom of god , the coming of which we are to pray for , is neglected , such as hold the opinion of not hearing the ministers in publick , thinking it enough if they can teach those of their society ; if by conference they instill any truths into others , it is seldom without somewhat that alienates them from others , and engageth them to their own society , with diminution of love to others , if not worse dispositions and practices . whence many remain in ignorance , profaneness , and errours , being hardned in opposition to the present ministers ; whom i deny not , may give too much occasion by their loose walking , and negligent preaching , in which they are not to be excused ; yet is not the opinion of not hearing them while they preach the gospel thereby justified , but both to be blamed as guilty of hindring the good of mens souls , and christs kingdom , and so in some sort antichristian . . nor are the effects of this opinion onely pernicious to them who are without ; but evil also to them within , whether ministers or people . to ministers , in that by the neglect of hearing them , and such esteem as is due to them for their work sake they are disheartened , and by this wrangling , opposition , disquietness they meet with , disabled in a great measure from doing that good which otherwise might be done . yea , by this opinion , their ministery , though they preach the gospel , is disanulled , and accounted as accursed . so the people , in that they are divided , become unpeaceable , some for not hearing , being unnecessarily cast on the danger of the laws , deprived of estates and liberty , in many places growing empty of fruitful knowledge , exposed to the attempts of seducers , who lie in wait to deceive , filled with bitterness of spirit towards others , though profuse towards those that agree with them ; and in a word , there is a sad breach between christians of the same profession of faith , which is most contrary to the union which they should have in christ by the same spirit ; and i wish it were not true that it is fulfilled now , which was foretold tim. . , . that men heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts . . the many absurdities which are consequent on the opinion , should disswade us from entertaining it . for if it be true , that it is unlawful to hear the present ministers , then it is not lawfull for us to invite them to preach , or to exhort them to it , or to rejoyce in it , or to pray to god that they may , or to praise god for their preaching : then it is better that quakerism , ranting , barbarism , rudeness should be spread among the people , then they be urged to hear the publick preachers ; that magistrates do ill to command people to go to hear them ; that they countenance or maintain them , then it is good at sermon time to stay at home idle , or to lie in an ale-house , rather then to go to hear them ; the non-preaching readers are as tolerable as preaching ministers ; their forbearing to preach , is avoiding of sin ; the less they preach , and the less they are heard preach , there is the less sin , their silencing is no evil , not they to be blamed for not preaching ; for it can be no evil for them to forbear preaching , if it be a sin for others to hear them , they ought rather to forbear preaching , then to draw others to sin . and yet , so wild is this opinion , that many of them that refuse to hear and condemn as this authour doth , the hearing of them , do yet except against non-preaching ministers , blame the ministers for not preaching more frequently , and those that hinder their preaching : whereas , if the hearing them were unlawful , it were good counsel to perswade men not to hear their sermons , nor to preach them ; which would introduce irreligion , or some pernicious errour , as the state of things now stands in this nation . sect. . some passages in the writings of mr. john goodwin opposite to th● book intituled , prelatical preachers none of christs teachers . for a conclusion , whereas the book mentioned in my epistle to the reader intituled [ p●elatical preachers none of christs teacher ] shewed to me as that , which did make men separatists , and the book was written not in a logick form , and therefore not answered by me , yet the authour being supposed the same with him who printed in the year . two books against some that about baptism left his communion , i have here added some passages with animadversions , which shew how his separation in this latter book crosseth his sayings in the former . in his . quaeries , qu. . i read thus , when men may separate that which is precious from that which is vile , and enjoy it thus separated and apart without suffering any inconvenience by that which is vile , is it a point of wisdome in them to deprive themselves of the enjoyment of what is precious , because there is somewhat , which they suppose to be vile near to it ? why then doth lie dissuade from hearing the present ministers ; who preach precious doctrine , because of some things conceived vile in them , yet may be separated from that which is precious ? qu. . the experience of many years in the reformed churches abroad , and of some years amongst our selves at home , hath abundantly taught and informed us , that the said question hath yielded little other fruit unto those that have set their hearts to it , yea and to others also , but contention , strife , emulations , evil surmizings , distractions , confusions , alienations of mind , and affections , amongst christian brethren , evill speakings , vilifyings , revilings , needless and wastfull expence of time , loss of many precious opportunities for matters of greatest consequence , unprofitable disturbings and turmoylings of weak consciences , shatterings , scatterings , rendings , and tearings such of churches and christian societies , who , till this root of bitterness sprang up amongst them , walked in love , and with the light of gods countenance shining on them , holding the vnity of the spirit in the bond of peace , edifying one another in their most holy faith , &c. these things were not the fruit of that question , but of that separation , which was made by occasion of it , and are as true of the separation this authour maintained in his later book . qu. . whether ought not the law of edification [ cor. . . ] to over-rule all laws and precept concerning spiritual and church administrations , as the law of salus populi ought to umpire and over-rule all politique laws and constitutions , in their respective executions ? if so , the supposed laws of outward calling of ministers should not be urged , so as to hinder people from hearing ministers , because of some defect supposed therein , when they may be heard to edification of the hearers . in his water-dipping , consideration . is it not then presumption in the highest , and an assuming of an antichristian power , to impose laws upon christian societies , which the lord christ never imposed ; yea , and to cesure and scandalize them with the odious and reproachful terms of antichristian , and unclean , onely for the transgression of their own laws ? what doth he less , who forbids to hear in his latter book the present ministers . consideration . whereas antichrist himself is not more antichristian , then in claiming and exercising such a dominion over the faiths of his proselytes and disciples ; by vertue whereof he commandeth them to depend onely upon ministes and teachers of his own faith and wicked perswasion in matters of religion , severely prohibiting unto them the hearing of protestant preachers ; we understand that the same high imposing spirit domineers more generally in the churches and congregations , which solemnly conjure all their proselytes and converts not to hear jesus christ himself speaking by any other mouth then theirs ; thus bearing them in hand , as if a voice from heaven , like unto that which was heard by the people at christs baptism , concerning him , had come to them also in reference to themselves and their teachers , in this or the like tenor of words , we are the onely true churches and ministers of christ : hear us . yea , there was of late a very great schism made in one of these churches , and the greater part aposynagog●ized by the lesser , because of the high misdemeanour of some of the members , in hearing the words of eternal life from the mouths of such ministers , who follow not them in their way . such principles and practises as these , we judge to be most notoriously and emphatically antichristian , and such wherein ( as was said in a like case ) the very horns and hoofs of the beast may be discerned . yea , we cannot but judge them to be of most pernicious consequence to the precious souls of men , as depriving them of the best means and opportunities which god most graciously affordeth● unto them for their recovery out of all such snares , wherein at any time their foot may be taken , ex ore tuo . — from these words might the authour of that book [ prelatical preachers none of christs teachers ] have learned not to condemn the hearing of the present ministers , as if none were to be heard but of his own way . finis . errata . page . line . read one . p. . l. . r. by him to them . p. . l. . r. case . p. . l. . r. utensils . p. . l. . r. wills . p. . l. . add after . & . . l. . r. . . l. . r. . . p. . l. . r. separatists . p. . l. . r. persevering . l. . r. . . p. . l. . r. times . p. . l. . r. breadth . p. . l. . r. hath . p. . running title , r. makes not . p. . l. . r. stupendious . p. . l. . r. he . p. . l. . r. distra . p. . l. . r. applies . p. . l. . r. bounded . p. . l. . r. parallel . l. . r. sanctius . p. . l. ult . r. ishi . p. . l. . r. super . p. . l. . r. solum . p. . l. . r. preside . p. . l. . r. acknow . p. . l. . r. pretence . p. . l. . r. did . p. . l. . r. queristers . p. . l. . r. the. p. . l. . r. venting . p. ( . ) l. . r. tyanaeus . p. ( . ) running title , r. ill applied . p. . l. . r. intension . p. . l. . r. ly . p. . running title , r. preacher . books printed for henry eversden , and are to be sold at his shop under the crown-tavern in west-smithfield . . the sphere of gentry , deduced from the principles of nature , an historical and genealogical work of arms and blazon : by sylvanus morgan . . the history of the late civil warrs of england . . riverius his universal body of physick in five books , &c. . the language of arms by the colours and metals , in quarto , by silvanus morgan . . scepsis scientifica , or confest ignorance the way to science , by joseph glanvil , fellow of the royal society . . the gospel physitian in quarto . . the mistery of rhetorick unveil'd , eminently delightful , and profitable for young schollars , and others of all sorts , enabling them to discern and imita●e the elegancy in any other author they read , &c. by john smith gent. . a crew of kind london gossips , all met to be merry : to which is added ingenious poems , or witt and drollery , in octavo , at s. bound . . the natural rarities of england , scotland , and wales , according as they are to be found in every shire , very useful for all ingenius men of what profession or quality soever , by j. childrey , in octavo . . pearls of eloquence , or the school of complements , very useful for all young ladies , gentlewomen , and schollars , who are desirous to adorn their speech with gentile ceremonies , complemental , amo●ous , and high expressions , of speaking or writing , at s. bound . . hodges directions for true writing , in octavo . . gods alsufficiency , by mr. jeremy , in ▪ notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e see selden de syned ▪ ebre . l. . c. . notes for div a -e ainsworth of the church of rome against johnson , p ▪ . every abuse doth not make a thing an idol ; but , when the honour due to god alone , is given to a creature , then it is made an idol . vide gatak . annot. in antonin . l. . sect . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . vide bezae annot. in matth. . . . dr. rainold in his letter to mr. barker , testifies his sil●ncing hart the jesuite herewith ; which is extant in mr. ●yfords apology , p. . ludov. crocius antisocinism . contr . disp . . qu. . geniculando coenam sumere nos per se indifferens judicamus . q. . nobis hic ritus est indifferens , allegatq , lutherum , m●lanchthonem , ut idem statuetes , contra flacium . see dr. hammond of scandal , § . notes for div a -e arg. . notes for div a -e owen of schisms ch . . sect. . upon what account those heb. . . so seperated themselves is declared v. . thereby slipping out their necks from the y●ak of christ v. . and drawing back to perdition v. . that is , they departed off to judaism . notes for div a -e dr. sparks in his book of uniformity allowed , and printed by command , . c. . in the conference at hampton court , his majesties order was , that none of the apocryphal books that had any errour , should be read , &c. dr. barlow by the preface to the second tome of homilies , declared it might be lawful by our church , to read other chapters , and alleadgeth archbishop abbot c. . quis ergo nisi infidelis negaverit fuisse apud inferos christum ? so are the words in the book of ordination . an antidote against the venome of a passage, in the th. direction of the epistle dedicatory to the whole book of mr. richard baxter teacher at kederminster in worcestershire, intituled, the saints everlasting rest, containing a satyricall invective against anabaptists / by iohn tombes b.d. lately teacher at bewdley in the same county. tombes, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) an antidote against the venome of a passage, in the th. direction of the epistle dedicatory to the whole book of mr. richard baxter teacher at kederminster in worcestershire, intituled, the saints everlasting rest, containing a satyricall invective against anabaptists / by iohn tombes b.d. lately teacher at bewdley in the same county. tombes, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by charles sumptner for thomas brewster and greg. moule at the three bibles neer the west-end of pauls, london : . a response to: baxter, richard. the saints everlasting rest. annotation on thomason copy: "may .". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng baxter, richard, - . -- saints everlasting rest. a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no an antidote against the venome of a passage, in the th. direction of the epistle dedicatory to the whole book of mr. richard baxter: teach tombes, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - pip willcox sampled and proofread - pip willcox text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an antidote against the venome of a passage , in the th . direction of the epistle dedicatory to the whole book of mr. richard baxter teacher at kederminster in worcestershire , intituled , the saints everlasting rest , containing a satyricall invective against anabaptists by iohn tombes b. d. lately teacher at bewdley in the same covnty . london , printed by charles sumptner for thomas brewster and greg. moule at the three bibles neer the west-end of pauls , . to my dearly beloved auditors , magistrates , and people of the borough of bewdley in worcester-shire . beloved , it was not a little refreshing to mee after my frequent flittings , and much toyle , through which my bodily strength and outward estate were impaired , that being hindred from returning to my former station , i was invited to sit down in the place of my nativity , and to imploy my talent among my kindred and acquaintance , who have known mee from my child-hood , with hope to be there gathered to my fathers , where they yielded their spirits to god . nor was it a little content to mee , that j should speak to so well affected an auditory , and enjoy the neighbourhood and assistance in the lords work of so precious a man as mr. baxter was , and is still accounted by mee . jt is therefore a grievance to mee that i remove from you and that jarres have happened between me and mr. baxter , the occasion whereof was this , mr. baxters dissent from mee about infant-baptisme being known , there was an endeavour to gaine his arguments in writing , which he declining and provoking me to a publique dispute , notwithstanding many reasons given of the inconveniences thereof , yet it beeing deemed my declining of it to have comen from distrust of my cause , after an answer made to the arguments , i knew urged by any for infant baptisme in certaine sermons , i yeelded to the dispute with him ian. . a fortnight after or lesse , even while i earnestly sollicited him to let mee have his arguments in writing , that i might examin them , he writes the epistle , in which the passage is , to which i here answer . it 's told me he intends a larger treatise of this matter , though before and since the dispute he seemed to be very averse from writing . i conceive by his dispute , that he averres a visible church-member-ship in infants of godly parents before circumcision was instituted , and from thence he would inferre infant baptisme . what is visible is discernible by some note ; a purpose or promise of god makes not a visible church-member , if it did many infidels elect should be visible members , while infidels : the birth and actings of believers infants is like to other infants ; what then should make or shew them visible members circumcision set apart , i know not . if it be only to live in a holy family , this visibility ( if it may be so called ) may be granted to remaine , yet as no initial seale ( as it 's called ) did belong to them till abrahams time , so neither doth it now by vertue of such visibility without institution . if baptisme be a new testament ordinance and a mere positive rite no good proofe can be made for it , but from precept or practise in the new testament , positive rites having no reason , but the appointers will , as a rule to us . and for the institution of christ math. . . mr. baxter in his treatise of the saints rest pag. . . paraphraseth christs words as j do , and in his appendix . pag. . he speaks thus , doth not the scripture bid us repent , believe and be baptized for the remission of sinnes ? the institution then is plaine according to my judgement , and so is the practise , yea mr. baxter in his appendix pag. . speaks as if he disliked it , that persons are baptized into they know not what ; which must needs be true of infants when baptized , and pag. . he hath these words ; neither are the seales usefull till the accepting , and entring of the covenant , how then can they be usefull to infants ? one thing more j desire you to take notice of , that in his treatiss of the saints rest pag. . he hath these words . and their being baptized persons , or members of the universall visible church ( into which it is that they are baptized ) is sufficient evidence of their interest to the supper , till they by heresie or scandal blot that evidence . j assume by mr. baxters doctrine , infants are rightly baptized and are visible members of the universall church , therefore by his doctrine there is sufficient evidence of their interest to the supper . besides if these reasons be good , infants of believers are in the covenant , they are federally holy , therefore are to have the seale of the covenant , it will follow they are to have the communion as wel as baptisme . and if it be good arguing infants were circumcised , our children a●e to have no lesse priviledge then the jewes children , baptisme comes in the roome of circumcition , the lords supper of the passeover , it being certaine that little ones among the jewes had the passover , it will follow according to these suppositions of paedobaptists , little ones of christians must have the lords supper , as they had in former ages for . years together from cyprians time to charles the great for denying which mr. baxter others may as wel be termed unthankfull , as anabaptists so called are by him inconsideratly styled in his treatise of the saints rest , pag. . as for him and others of his judgement , i pray the lord to open their eyes to see how they have profaned and perverted holy baptisme , by changing it into sprinkling contrary to the use in scripture , and ages after , and administring it to infants , whereby is occasioned abundance of ignorance and carnall presumption in the generality of reputed christians , and is more necessarily to be reformed then episcopall ceremonies , against which though much more excusable there have been so great contendings . as for your selves , my love to you continues the same in my absence as in my presence , and my jealousie over you is , least your aversenesse from the doctrine , j taught you occasion your adhering to meer formall teachers , who may extinguish that power of godlinesse that is among you . i never moved you to entertaine my tenet for my sake : but if it be according to christs institution , and the apostles practise ( as if i understand any thing it is ) beware , that disobedience to christ the great prophet you be not cut off from his people . now the god of peace , who brought from the dead the lord christ , the great shepheerd of the sheep , by the blood of the everlasting covenant , make you perfect to do his will , and stablish and comfort you therein . thus prayeth your truly loving country man and late teacher john tombes . london may . . the contents . sect. . pag. . of anabaptists accusing their owne children sect. . pag. . of auabaptists disputing their children out of the church and covenant of christ . sect. . pag. . of anabaptists affirming their children to be no disciples , no servants of god , nor holy as separated to god . sect. . pag. . of the text levit. . . . alleaged to prove our children gods servants . sect. . pag. . of the text deut. . . . . alleaged to prove our infants to be visible church-members . sect. . pag. . of the text acts , . alleaged to prove our infants disciples of christ . sect. . pag. . of the text cor. . . alleaged to prove our infants holy as seperated to god . sect. . pag. . of gods speaking by judgements from heaven against anabaptists . sect. . pag. . of the anabaptists evill lives . sect. . pag. . of the anabaptists confident expressions , weaknesse upon triall and dispute at bewdley : jan. . . errata . adde to the margin page at line . these words . see salmas . apparat . ad libr de primatu papae page . voss . thes. de baptismo page l. r & in page l blot out ( it ) page l yee r yet , page l r on v in the margin r before christs comming page l tencher r teacher page l if r is , l businesse r businesse l circumtion r circumcision page l thu r thus page l mani r manifestly page l how near it is , r is neare . an antidote against mr. baxters invective against anabaptists : sect. . of anabaptists accusing their own children . there came newly to my hands this following passage , which because it doth mainly reflect on my selfe , i conceive my selfe necessitated to answer it . anabaptists , saith mr. baxter , play the divells part in accusing their own children and disputing them out of the church and covenant of christ , and affirming them to be no disciples , no servants of god , nor holy as separated to him ; when god saith the contrary , levit. . . . deut. . . . . &c. acts . . cor. . . answ. though mr. baxter speaks of anabaptists in the plurall , yet the passage it selfe , and the circumstances of it , well known in these partes , evidence it to be directed either solely , or mainly against my selfe . the terme [ anabaptists ] i own not , any more , then my infant sprinkling , the faith i owne , but not the ceremony they are unjustly called anabaptists who have beene baptized after their own profession of the faith of christ , though they had water sprinkled or poured on their faces by an officiating priest when they were infants . sprinkling is not baptizing , nor infants the subjects of the baptisme of water appointed by christ , or practised by the apostles . mr. baxter offered to prove , in the beginning of the dispute after mentioned , that dipping in cold water is murder and adultery . it seems he dare undertake to prove , the snow black , he is so confident of his nimble wit , and ready tongue . thousands in the primitive times , ( in which baptizing was by dipping until hieroms time at least in the th . century ) thousands in these dayes are so baptized without murder or adultery . and therefore mr. baxters assertion is contrary to sense and experience . he may do much i believe , but will never be able to prove infant baptisme , or sprinkling instead of it , to be the duty ordained by christ , math. . . mark . . . the seven churches under baptisme about london disclaime the title of anabaptists , in the preface to their confession of faith , under that terme all the pelagian and arminian errours , all those pestilent errours of community of goods , denying civill magistracy , lawfullnesse of taking an oath to end strife and sundry other are charged on them , that deny infant baptisme , i may well say ] in a divelish manner , by many preachers ; to make them odious to the people ; that they might drive them away out of the land ; if not destroy them : and therefore if mr. baxter , who knowes how odious the terme is , had minded equity or peace he had chosen rather to stile us antipaedobaptists , then anabaptists . but what sayes he of us ? anabaptists play the devils part in accusing their own children . a most virulent charge , which shews mr. baxter kept no moderation of spirit , nor heeded what he wrote . the devils part in accusing , is either by himselfe , or his instruments , before god , or before men , or in their own conscience . mr. baxter may as soone bring water out of a pumice stone , as prove we do , any of these wayes , play the devills part . but perhaps it will be said we accuse them however . to accuse , is to charge with a fault or crime . i know no fault or crime we charge our children with meaning our infant children , but their birth sin ; of which mr. baxter hath been heard to charge them , as deep as any of us . but it is unnaturall in us , to accuse our own children perhaps . i blesse god he hath given me children , to whom i bear a naturall affection , as tender as another . if mr. baxter meane , denying baptisme to belong to them in infancy , to be the playing the devils part in accusing them , he must give me leave to think , that he himselfe playes the devills part in asserting , that it belongs to them till he prove it appointed by christ , or used by his apostles ( which i expect to be done by him , ad graecas calendas ) and so much the rather do i think he playes the devills part therein , because experience proves , that thousands are hardned in carnal presumption , to their perdition by conceiving their infant baptisme to make them christians , and so heires of heaven . sect. . of anabaptists disputing their children out of the church and covenant of christ . another thing wherein mr. baxter sayes we play the divels part is in disputing our children out of the church and covenant of christ . i answer . the church of christ is either visible or invisible : the covenant of christ may be meant either of christs covenant to them , or theirs to christ : by disputing them out of the church may be meant either that by our disputing , we keep them out of the church and covenant of christ , or cast them out being admitted . it is true i have asserted in disputation that according to the constitution of the visible church of christians infants are not visible church members and i still assert it . for the visible church of christians is a company of believers art . of the church of england ; and therefore till a person is a believer he is not a visible church member according to the frame of the christian church , which is not a whole nation joyned together in one community by the civill magistrate , as the jewish church was , but a company of believers made such by the preaching of the gospel . and this definition of the visible church was formerly received among protestants without the addition which the assembly lately put to it in their confession of faith ch. is avouched in disputes against papists concerning the notes of the church : as for the invisible church or covenant of christ to them i have often shewed in my examen of mr. marshalls sermon and elsewhere that i do say as much concerning their interest in them as mr. marshall speaking consideratly will avouch . i thank god by my preaching and disputing . sundry have beene brought into the church and covenant of christ , none do i know that have been kept , or cast out by my disputing , and therefore in this accusation of me , mr. baxter may be more truly said to play the divils part then my selfe . sect. . of anabaptists affirming their children to be no disciples , no servants of god nor holy as separated to god . but however perhaps i play the divels part in the third thing mr. baxter sayes anabaptists do , affiirming them to be no disciples , no servants of god , nor holy as separated to god . this i am sure alludes to the dispute between me and mr. baxter , in which mr. baxter would have proved infants might be baptized , because disci●les of christ which he would prove out of acts. . . and because they are called servants of god , which he would prove from levit. , . . and holy as separated to god from cor. . . and members of the visible church , because of their entring into covenant . deut. . . , . and this was the maine of his dispute of which he so much crakes in this passage of his preface to his book , in which he urged no more texts , that i remember , out of which he concluded infant baptisme , excepting that of rom. . . . the thing that i affirmed in the dispute was , that infants are not servants of god as it is equipolent to disciples of christ , for one that actively and willingly serves god , such service of god alwayes requiring the use of reason , which infants have not . in which sense also i denyed them to be disciples , that is such as being taught the gospell of christ by preaching of it , do embrace it , which sort of disciples only are appointed to be baptized math. . . compared with mark . . mr. baxter the saints everl . rest , page . he gave them authority to send forth others on the same message , and to baptize and gather churches . as for the terme [ holy as separated to god ] the thing i said in the dispute was conc●rning the text cor. . . whether there [ holy ] be as much as separated to god , which i denied . but for the thing it selfe , could i have had liberty to expresse my selfe without checking , ( which all that were present know i could not have in the disputation ) i would have distinguished of a state of separation unto god either by election , as separation is taken : gal. . . or by calling , in the former sense , i deny not but our children are or may be holy , as the jewes yet unborne are said to be rom. . . which thing i also in my exercitation pag. . had heretofore shewed in my answer to the argument for infants baptisme out of cor. . . but in the latter i deny it . if mr. baxter understand it in a third sense i shall give an answer about it , when i understand what way he affirmes , our children are separated to god . sect. . of the text levit. . . . alleaged to prove our children gods servants . but mr. baxter sayes , god saith the contrary to my affirmation levit. . . . deut. . . . . act . . cor. . . the text lev. . . . saith the hebrew servant shall not be held in bondage , but till the year of iubilee , then he shall depart both he and his children , for they are gods servants , but this text speaks only of the israelites children whom god brought out of the land of egypt , and the reason of their being his servants , is taken meerly from that , and to shew the priviledge they had above other servants and their children , and distinguishingly v . unto me the children of israel are servants what is this to our children ? god saith , the children of the israelites are gods servants , i say our children are not , is there any contrariety in these speeches where the subjects of the propofitions are not the same ? besides when i said our children , that is our infant children are not gods servants , i meant actually , but that which god saith , levit. . : that they are his servants , is meant only of what they are de jure of right , and then the predicates of the propositions are different , and therefore no contrariety , yet again , servants of god are either actively such or passively , as the heavens : psal. . . are called gods servants : nebuchadnez●zer is called , gods servant , ierem. . . were the heavens and nebuchadnezar disciples of christ and to be baptized ? sect. . of the text deut. . . . . alleaged to prove our infants to be visible church-members . the next text deut. . , . . was alleaged to prove that our children are visible church members . because the little ones of the israelites entered into covenant with god , that he might establish them to be his people , and this a gospell covenant deut. . . . , . . to this i answered that [ thou ] v. . doth not necessarly comprehend the little ones . this mr. baxter in the disputation turning himselfe to the people told them was to contradict the text expressely , and he sought to suggest to them as if it were my impudence , and said ; that if it the papists had as plaine express scripture as deut. . . was to prove that all even little ones did enter into covenant , he would turne papist . but for all mr. baxters hast , i presume he would be better advised , if he did consider , v. . [ you ] are distinguished from them that stand there before the lord &c. v. . [ thou ] only is said to enter into covenant , and therefore though all v. . are said to stand , yet it is not without some likely hood that [ thou ] v. . notes only some that entred into covenant in the behalfe of the rest . and if the passing into covenant were as piscator in his scholie , that thou mayest passe through the parts of the divided living creatures in testimony of the covenant , ( to which ainsworth notes the phrase to allude , surely , neither the little ones , nor all the rest did passe between the parts of the beasts divided , but some instead of the rest . . but were it granted that the little ones are said to enter into covenant , yet this doth not prove them to be visible members . for. v. . it is said that moses made that covenant and oath with him that was not there with them that day , that is their posterity not yee borne , as lackson , piscator , ainsworth , grotius the new annot : &c , shall it therefore be said that the posterity unborne were visible members of the jewish church in the wildernesse ? . it must be and was granted by mr. baxter in the dispute , that this entring into covenant was not by their owne act but by their parents for them . but such an entring into covenant doth not make a viable church member in the christian church , however it did in the jewish church , there being a different church state or frame in the christian church which was gathered by the preaching of the gospell from the israelites church state & frame made by the authority of abraham & moses without teaching of the persons gathred . . be it that the covenant were to establish them to be a people to god and that he may be a god to them , yet this doth not prove the covenant to be a pure gospel covenant , not including peculiar benefits to the jewish nation : for there is a plaine restriction in the words , as he hath said unto thee , and as he hath sworne unto thy fathers to abraham , to isaac , & to iacob , which undoubtedly comprehended their settling in canaan , which was proper only to them as israelites , which may be proved out of many passages following , as deut , , . . deut. . . . . , &c. yea ainsworth v. . notes that the covenant was made with their posterity , with exception of the new covenant in christ , so that by him this covenant and the covenant in christ are not all one . as for that which is alleaged out of deut. . . that it is the gospell covenant , because it is said rom. . . this is the word of faith which we preach , i answer , the words v. . . . speak expressely of the word of command & v. . the word is nigh to thee that thou mayst do it , which is not meant of a promise but a command of the law : nor will it prove that then the appostle allegeth it inpertinently : for it is frequent with the apostle to accommodate words to his purpose , that have a different sense in the places whence they are taken from that , to which the apostle applieth them , as rom. . . &c. lastly if it did containe promises purely evangelical , yet the covenant in respect of them cannot be meant of all and every of the israelites that god would be a god to them , that is sanctify , justifie , adopt them to be heirs of eternall life . for then gods promise to them should not be true , for with many of them god was not well pleased cor. . . heb. . . but only of the elect . as for that deut. . . i confesse it is a promise of spirituall grace , but to the jews after their captivity upon condition of obedience , and to them indefinitely , which was never performed to all their seed , but only to the elect among them , and therefore must be so limited , as the promise , isai. . . is by our lord christ , iohn . . and the promise gen. . . is by the apostle rom. . . . . sect. . of the text acts . . alleaged to prove our infants disciples of christ . the next text alleaged by mr. baxter is acts . . where he would have it thought , that god sayes that our infant children are disciples , and therefore to be baptised according to the institution , math. . . to which i answer . . by putting mr. baxter in mind of his own objection against my interpretation of the words , cor . . [ but now are they holy ] that it is more likely the word should be taken in a sense in which it is . times taken for [ separated to god ] then in my sense , in which it is no where else taken signifying [ legitimate . ] for if this reason be good , it holds against himselfe , who takes the word [ disciples ] in a sense applicable to infants , in which sense it is no where else taken , though it be used for one that is a follower of a tencher . times in the evangelists , and the acts of the apostles , of which either . or very neare it is used by luke . mr. baxters interpretation will apaeare to be manifestly wrested to any that will but consider that the putting the yoak on the necks of the disciples , is the same with that which is mentioned v. . they taught the brethren , and v. . they said that it was needfull to circumcise them , and to command them to keep the law of moses , and v. . certaine which went out from us , have troubled you with words , subverting your soulis saying , ye must be circumcised and keep the law . now if any man so sencelesse as to think they did these things to infants ? . the text v. . . calls them brethren , sayes v. . their hearts were purified by faith upon the hearing of the word which none but those that are resolved to outface a plaine truth would averre to be meant of infants . . lastly mr. baxter confessed in privat conference with mee , that the putting the yoak was by teaching , and indeed it may easily be evinced that their act was not to take a knife or sharp stone and therewith in their owne persons cut off the little skin of male infants , but that they made it their businesse to subvert the soules of converted gentiles to hold it necessary that they should be circumcised themselves : if the putting the yoak had been actuall circumcision , it had not been put on their necks , but elsewhere . besides actuall circum●tion that is , the losse of a little skin was and might be borne , and is at this day by many people whereas it is said , the yoak they put was such as neither the present iewes , nor their fathers were able to beare . from all which i inferre that none are there meant by the terme [ disciples ] but they that were taught by the false teachers , nor the yoak any other then the doctrine or opinion of the necessity of circumcision , and keeping of moses his law . in like manner christs doctrine is called his yoak math. . . . pisc. in his scholie on acts , . iugum {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} nempe legem mosis ex collatione v. . grot. amot . ad actor . . rabbini usurpant de doctrina quae aliquid omnino faciendum inculcat , and in like manner the yoak of bondage gal. . . is the law gal. . . and is generally by divines handling the doctrine of christian liberty made to be the teaching and holding circumcision and moses law as the necessary way to justification and salvation , and that the habassine christians who are circumcised yet are not intangled with the yoak of bondage , because their consciences are free , and so it is to be understood v. . whosoever is circumcised that is , who is circumcised willingly out of the opinion of its necessity , and sufficiency to salvation christ shall profit you nothing , yea but saith mr. baxter it is circumcision as obliging to moses law , and if it be not meant of circumcision circumcision is not condemned in that councel . i answer , all the colour mr. baxter hath from this text to prove infants disciples is by conceiving the yoak to note barely and precisely the cutting off a little skin : but to say it is circumcision as obliging to moses law is to say the samewhich i say that it is not circumcision as acted , but as taught , sith the doctrin or command obliged to moses law , not the bare cutting away the little skin . and yet circumcision is in that councel taken away , sith he that by teaching , shewes the command to cease , doth thereby take away the practise , as with us they that deny ordinances do binddo take away the use of them yet further if it were granted mr. baxter , that the yoak were the taking away of the little skin the terme disciples would not necessarily comprehend infants , though the false teachers aimes were also to have infants circumcised , yet they would first have the bre-sthren of years circumcised & so the tearm [ disciples ] note only them , although infants should be by that means circumcised , yet not meant by the terme [ disciples ] lastly were it granted that the terme [ discples ] did note infants , yet it could note no other then males according to mr. baxters owne explication , for they only were to be circumcised , and therefore femall infants should not be thence proved disciples , nor to be baptized . from all which the reader may perceive how sleighly these arguments of mr. baxter are , and how superficially he hath handled this businesse . sect. . of the text cor. . . alleaged to prove our infants holy as separated to god . the other text that remaines hath more shew for his purpose then all the rest , mr. baxter saith ; anabaptists affirme their own children not to be holy as separated to god ; when god saith the contrary cor. . i answer , what others whom he calls anabaptists affirme in this thing , i am not ingaged to inquire : i beleeve if mr. baxter were required to set down who those anabaptists are , and where they affirme it , he would be hard put to it to free himselfe from overlashing . but i am assured mr. baxter wrote this passage in hast , and inconsideratly not well weighing what he said , and that however he name anabaptists in the plurall , yet his only instance would be my selfe affirming in the disputation after mentioned . but the thing i affirmed in the disputation was not so rawly expressed as mr. baxter doth , i said this , that every child of a believer is not , because a believers child holy as separated to god , nor doth holy cor. . . signifie as much as separated to god . to conceive of which it is to be noted that a person may be said to be separated to god , either in gods purpose by his election , or in promise by his covenant , or in his present condition either by gods calling to the knowledge of christ , or speciall employment for god , or by his owne profession , or by vow of parents , or by some speciall gift or priviledge or if there be any other way whereby a person may be said to be separated to god . i never affirmed that none of these wayes my children , or other believers children are holy as separated to god : i only said that every child of a believer is not because a believers child holy as separated to god . if mr. baxter had told me in what manner he meant believers children to be holy as separated to god , i should have told him in the disputation more fully what i affirme or deny in this thing . but all that were auditors of the dispute might , and many did take notice how mr. baxter checked me , when i did but desire him to explaine the terme of visible church member , and to shew by what note he meant some infants were visible church-members , saying it was to catechize him , and when i told him it was necessary the people should be satisfied , he told me , his comming was to dispute with mee , not to satisfie them . and all along the dispute how magisterially , scornfully , and unbrotherly he carried himselfe , not as one that minded clearing of truth , but to diminish my esteem , and to gain an opinion to himself as having the better i think the auditors will testifie ; and for this reason i obtained not from him to shew in what manner , and by what means he asserted every believers infant to be holy as separated to god , so that in fine the dispute was only about the meaning of the terme [ holy ] cor. . . whether it signifie a state of separation to god as mr. baxter conceived , or legitimation as i conceived . in which businesse though i should be mistaken in the meaning which i give , yet it doth not follow mr. baxter is in the right : possibly both may be mistaken , and then however it serves not mr. baxters purpose , which is as much as j need demonstrate , yet because j desire truth may be discovered , j shall by answering what mr. baxter brought either for his owne sense or against mine , shew how little cause of triumph there was in any thing he brought at the disputation about this text . jf mr. baxter say j do not truely set downe his reasons or meaning , the fault is in himselfe , who though often requested would never communicate to me his arguments in writing , but left me to gather what j could from mine own memory and others notes . that which mr. baxter said of the meaning of this text was to this effect . holinesse cor. . . signifies a state of separation to god : for so the word is constantly taken neare . times , and no where for legitimate . and the apostles meaning is , the unbelieving wife is sanctified to the husband , that is to his use , passively , though not actively , remotely , though not immediatly , as it is said tim. . . every creature is sanctified by the word of god and prayer , and tit. . . to the pure all things are pure , else were your children uncleane , that is were it not the unbelieving wife were sanctified thus to the beleevers use , your children , the infant children of you believers ; having unbelieving wives were unclean , that is not separated to god , but now , that is this being determined that the unbelieving wife is thus sanctified to the believing husbands use your children , that is the children of you believing corinthians , who have unbelieving wives are holy , that is are separated to god . the same is the sense mutat is mutandis of that which is said concerning the believing wife and unbelieving husband . to which j say : holines it is true notes a state of separation to god : and yet it is apparent that thes. . . . . it signifies barely chastity of the body without fornication , to which sense the use of [ holy ] for [ legitimate ] is neare . and when holy notes a state of separation to god , that separation is many wayes , as by election , covenant , calling vowing , offering , anointing , prayer , ordinance , apparition &c. and to many purposes or uses as to glorifie god , do service at the temple , execute judgement &c. if mr. baxter would distinctly tell me , what way , and to what use he would have the children of believers holy as separated to god in the text , cor. . . j conceive he would not find one of all his . places , in which it is taken just in his sense , so as that it may be verified of the infants he meanes . jt is true god saith , the corinthians children were holy , but he doth not say they were holy as separated to god as mr. baxter would have it . jn what sense it is there taken , j conceive can be gathered no way but by analysing the apostles words and finding out of what holinesse his speech can be true , which j have already in my examen of mr. marshalls sermon and my apology and post script proved to be only legitimation and may yet more fully prove in my review of the dispute about infant-baptisme if ever it be published , against all that mr. marshall , mr. geree , mr. blake , mr. cobbet , mr. church or any other i have met with reply to my examen : nor is it unusuall with interpreters to take a word in a sense in which it is used no where else , when the matter ' scope , and other circumstances of the text lead to that sense as in that epistle , cor. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} which every where else signifies power or authority there confessedly signifies a veile , and the phrase of due benevolence is used cor. . . in a sense in which it is used no where else , and the like may be said of the word [ forme ] phil. . , of the word [ church ] math. . . and many more . as for mr. baxters exposition i conceive it not right . because if the sanctification be understood as mr. baxter would have it in that sense the unbeliever is said to be sanctified only to the true real believer before god , who by prayer doth sanctifie the other party to his or her use , for of such only it is true , to them every thing is sanctified by prayer , sith they only can pray , and to them only all things are pure , not to them , who though they professe they know god , yet in works deny him tit . . this then is mr. baxters sense , for the unbelieving husband is sanctified to the use of a believing wife , who is truly and really a believer before god , and not only by profession before men , unto whom by vertue of her true faith and prayer her husband is sanctified to her use and pure to her . but if this were the sense then the reason of the apostle had reached only to the resolution of such to live with their unbelieving yoke-fellowes the rest were not to continue with them , because they were not sanctified to them , whereas the doubt was concerning any visible believer or brother , and accordingly the apostles resolution . besides supposing any true reall believers doubted of the truth of their owne faith , they would be deterred by the apostles reason so understood from living with their unbelieving yok-fellowes as being not sanctified to them . againe the apostle had resolved them of the lawfullnesse of their continuing together by a reason taken from a thing only known to god , and their own conscience , whereas his intent was to resolve all concerning the lawfullnesse of living together , with their yoke-fellowes in disparity of religion by a reason taken from a thing obvious to them all . . mr. baxters sense supposeth that the cause of the sanctification of the unbeliever is the faith of the believer , but if so then doubtlesse the apostles would have expressed it thus [ to or in the believing wife or husband ] whereas it is only said [ in or to the husbnnd or wife ] without adding the terme [ believing ] which manifestly shews the apostle placed not the emphasis in it . for who will leave out the word in which the emphasis is put and not rather expresse it remarkably ? . if the sense be as mr. baxttr would have it , then this proposition is true ▪ as being included in the apostles reasoning : the children whereof one of the parents is not a reall true believer before god are none of them holy as separated to god . but it is false , take the separation to god what way and to what use he will , the child of professed unbelievers , much more the child of professed believers , though not really such before god may be , and perhaps is separated to god . now that these propositions [ all the children whereof one parent is not sanctified to the other are uncleane , none of the children whereof one of the parents is not sanctified to the other are cleane or holy ] are included in the apostles consequence is confessed by chamier , mr. blake and others as i shew in my examen , postscript and other writings , nor do i know any that deny it , and if they should it might easily be evinced to any that is acquainted with the rules of reasoniug , and therefore according to mr. baxters explication , the apostle must assert [ that all the children whereof one of the parents is not sanctified to the others use , being a true reall believer before god are unclean , none holy as separated to god , ] which being manifalse mr. baxters exposition is apparently erroneous . lastly if his sense were allowed him , then the baptizing any infant but such whereof one of the next parents is a reall believer before god would be unlawfull , for such only are holy in his sense , and the rest uncleane : but it being knowne only to god that one of the parents is a true reall believer before god , it will follow no ministers ought to baptize any infant at all without revelation from god , that one of the parents is a true real believer , otherwise we shall baptize the uncleane , or unholy who have not a right to be baptized . to tel , us as mr. baxter did in private conference with mee , that by a judgement of charity , a professed believer is to be taken to be a reall believer , i answer be it granted , yet that is not sufficient to justifie the baptizing the child of such a one according to mr. baxters exposition , sith as he expounds the apostle it is requisite that the parent be a true believer before god , or else the child is uncleane , that is in his sense unbaptizable . besides the judgement of charity is not that by which persons are to proceede in baptizing , but the certaine judgement of verity arising from ministeriall skill and prudence , to know what is the true profession , and from sense , that the person to be baptized maketh such profession . mr. baxter himself in his appendix to his aphorismes pag. . dare not you to dispence gods seales upon your conjectures of the probability or improbability of mens sincerity . these things being true , though i should be mistaken in my sense , yet mr. baxters arguments were answered : yet ex abundanti i shall answer mr. baxters exceptions against my interpretation , which according to my memory , and the notes which i could procure of the disputation between us were these . the sense is not right which thus interpreteth the apostles speech . the vnbelieving wife is sanctified to the husband , that is , in respect of lawfull use of marriage is as if he were sanctified ; else were your children uncleane , that is bastards , but now they are holy , that is legitimate . for . the word sanctified signifies somewhat more then lawfully used . pagans actions may be said to be lawfull , not sanctified . . it is no good consequence , your marriage continues lawfull in the use in opposition to fornication ; therefore you may dwell together lawfully in opposition to piety . . the argument is taken a notiori : but it could not be more known to them that their children were legitimate , then that their marriage was lawfull . . if it were better known that their children were legitimate then that their marriage were lawfull , because of the change of religion , then they should doubt of their childrens legitimation , who were borne since their conversion , and not of those that were borne before , which were an irrationall fancy . to this i answer . . it is not said the unbelievers action is sanctified , but the unbeliever , and unbelieveing medes are said to be gods sanctified ones , isai. . but be the word taken so as not to be applied to a pagan in its proper acception , yet the sence i give alters not the usuall sense , onely it supposeth the meaning of the word to be taken with some diminution by a catachresis , or acytology , that is abuse or impropriety of speech , which is a very frequent thing , as cor. . . were baptized , that is , quasi baptizati sunt ( as grotius rightly notes on that place ) they were as if they had been baptized : the cloud and sea were to them as baptisme to us . and so here the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified : that is , to his wife in respect of the use of him , as if he had been sanctified : which is a plaine and easie exposition . . the corinthians doubted of the lawfulnesse of living with the unbelieving yokefellow , by reason of the unholiness of the unbeliever , which they questioned whether it did not necessitate a divorce or departure , though they doubted not of their childrens legitimation , either borne afore or after their conversion , they yet living with the unbeliever . the apostles answer i conceive to be thus . you may lawfully continue together notwithstanding the unbelief of the yokefellow ? for he being a husband though an unbeliever is , as if he were sanctified in respect of marriage use , else were your children you have borne in this estate uncleane , that is illegitimate which you do not conceive . though the occasion of the doubt were the impiety of the one party , yet the doubt was onely whether divorce were necessary ; which is rightly answered by telling them they might lawfully continue in marriage use . as in like case if a papist doubt whether she must not be divorced from her lutheran husband lately converted to it , the answer is right by telling her no , for the marriage relation continues though her husband be an heretique ; else should her children borne since he was made a lutheran be illegitimate , of which she doubts not . . it might be more known to them that their children were legitimate , then that living with the unbeliever continued lawfull , because there was not such occasion of doubt concerning the children , as of the professed unbeliever , and for some other reasons , perhaps through meere incogitancy of the connexion , between the unlawfulnesse of their living together and the illegitimation of their children , as it happened to them , cor. . . and is incident to men , and women as rationall as they . . according to the interpretation i give , there is no intimation of doubt concerning the childrens legitimacy , either borne before or after conversion ; nor needs there be to make good the exposition i give . as for [ else were your children unclean ] the consequence of the apostle might be good in my sense if it be meant either of the children borne before , or after conversion of the one party ; it is true of either , that if the unbelieving husband were not as if he had been sanctified to his wife , in respect of lawfull conjugall use , their children were illegitimate , but i think upon mature consideration , it is the most cleer exposition to understand it of those borne since the conversion of one party . upon this answer to mr. baxter , i presume the reader will perceive my exposition no irrationall fancy , which is the interpretation of ambrose , hierome , anselme , aquinas , melanchthon , camerarius , osiander , gagnaeus , musculus , suarez , mariana , and many others , who have been conceived men able to discerne between reason and irrationall fancies as actuely as mr. baxter , though i conceive of his abilities as excellent . however still the christian that would not delude his conscience , me thinks should feare to goe against the plaine institution of christ , and practise of the apostles , and first ages of the church ; in which infant-baptisme was neither appointed nor practised , upon such uncertaine expositions and consequences , as mr. baxter hath brought , and i may now freely say however they seemed somewhat at the first hearing , yet now upon exact consideration , for the consequences from his three first scriptures here brought frivolous , and i doubt urged more like a sophister then a lover of truth . the rest of mr. baxters passage hath with it a manifest tincture of reviling , little of reason : yet because such speeches too easily take with people , who are of all others most prejudiced against those they call anabaptists , and who i thinke are as unequally dealt with as any men , i will make an answer to it . sect. of gods speaking by judgements from heaven against anabaptists . master baxter goes on thus : i cannot digresse to fortify you against these sects : you have seene god speak against them by judgements from heaven ; what were the two monsters in new england but miracles ? ans. he is pleased to stile , antinomians , socinians , arminians , separatists , independents , anabaptists , ( falsly so called ) sects . those whom he calls independents , disclaim the title , and deny themselves to be a sect , and so doe antipaedobaptists . let reason be heard ; why should men be any more called a sect , for denying that it is of divine appointment , that a synod of many churches should have power to excommunicate , then others called presbyterians for holding it ? why should antipaedobaptists be called a sect for denying that infants are appointed by christ to be baptized rather then paedobaptists for affirming it ? if for their tenet they are called a sect , surely they that so plainly turne aside from the expresse institution , mat. . , . mark . . . . which almost all expositors , and not a few paedobaptists even in their writings for paedobaptisme do acknowledge to appoint onely the baptizing of disciples made by preaching , and from the manifest practise of the apostles , are more worthy the name of a sect , or sectaries ; if for non-communion with others of a contrary judgement i wish each man would lay his hand on his heart , and examine whether he hath not been the maker of the breach : for my own part i am assured , i can better aquit my selfe from it then the chief of my antagonists . surely mr. baxter in this his invective , chiefly in his rash and hasty reckoning me among hereticks , even then when i made earnest suite to him to have his arguments in writing that i might examine them ( which i cannot any way obtaine as yet ) hath more manifestly shewed himself resolved to break with me , and to renounce me as one unfit for communion with him , then any action i ever did shewed the like disposition in me towards him , mr. baxter sayth i cannot digresse to fortifie you against these sects . i confesse a discourse against those sects , as he calls them , had been a digression from the subject of his treatise , but not from the matter of his epistle , and the fifth direction he gives to his neighbours of kederminster . but why can he not digresse ? i can ghesse no other reason but his haste : willing he was in his epistle before that book which was likely to sell , to blast my reputation by name , and other dissenters from him without naming them ; whether to ease his stomack or to what other end he knowes best , though he little considered what he wrote . he goes on : you have seen god speake against them by judgements from heaven ; what were the two monsters in new england , but miracles ? i answer , what judgements from heaven by wch god spak against the sects he mentions , they had seen , i could never yet learn of his neighbours , though i have lived very near them , have often conversed with them , and had them my auditors till ( i imagin ) m. baxters opposition to me took them off . nor doe i think if mr. baxter were put to name the judgements by which god spake from heaven against the sects he names , would he mention any other then the two monsters in new england , which i am confident neither mr. baxter , nor any of his neighbours of kederminster saw . these two monsters are mentioned in the margin of his book pag. . to be the most hideous monstrous births of mistris hutchinson , and mistris dier . in mr. welds story of the antinomians ; i finde mention in the preface of thirty monstrous births or thereabouts brought forth by mistris hutchinson at once ; some of them bigger , some of them lesser , some of one shape some of another , few of any perfect shape , none at all of them ( so far as he could learne ) of humane shape . and of mistris dyer that she brought forth her birth of a woeman child , a fish , a beast , and a foule , all woven together in one , and without an head , which he describes pag. . of his story . the truth of the relation i question not : but that they were miracles as mr. baxter takes the word [ miracle ] in his second part , ch. . sect. . &c. in which he distinguisheth between wonders and miracles , i think cannot be made good . if we finde not the like story in every point , yet we reade of many monstrous births , as that of the earle of hollands daughter and many other : yet neither divines , nor philosophers , nor physicians that i know do reckon them among miracles . nor do i think it a very safe way to take such accidents as arguments for , or against any tenet . camden in his britannia describing wiltshire , makes mention of a synod in calne , whereat upon the falling of the roome , and preservation of dunstan it was judged , that god had determined for monkery . many more such strange accidents doe both heathen , and ecclesiasticall histories mention for confirmation of superstition and errors , which mr. baxter himself takes notice of pag. . by which people have been lead to errors . and therefore i think mr. baxter doth ill to direct his neigbhours of kederminster , to such accidents to fortifie them against sects . and i have ever judged it a very unsafe , and i thinke an evill course that many preachers have taken to affright their people with relations of accidents , befalling men whom they judge erroneous , thereby to deter them from so much as examining their tenet ; as being contrary to pauls admonition of trying all things , thess. . . and directing to another way of discerning between truth and error , then the holy scripture contrary to john . . mark . . . tim. . . deut. . , . and isai. . . &c. which is derogatory to the scriptures use , and directing them by judgements from heaven to judge of doctrines , of which many relations are not true , as i am sure for one instance in the relations of gods judgement upon sabbath breakers , to which mr. baxter referrs pag. . concerning mr. powle of lemster in my time of being there , and not far off from the place when it happened , in the relation of which there are sundry mistakes and untruths , nor did the circumstances shew the accident to be gods voyce , to that end the compiler of that book applies it . but if the relations of the accidents be true , yet it is uncertaine whether the devill do not speak by them , untill it appear first that the tenet they are applied to confirme be of god , which may be known by the scriptures without relying on such accidents . and it is well known that papists use them as well as the orthodox , and make them a note of their church and doctrine , which is rejected by protestants . but were it granted a safe way to judge of doctrines by such judgements of god ; yet in all the story of mr. weld forementioned , i finde not a word of mistris hutchinson , or mistris dyer , or any other of these whose errors are taken to be condemned by those accidents , as holding antipaedobaptisme . i finde mistris dyer and her husband to have been taken for familists , pag. . mistris hutchinson to have held errors , pag. . but none of them against infant baptisme . mr. baxter himself in the margin of his book pag. . bids aske them in new england , whether they were not convincing providences against their antinomian antiscripturall heresies . why then doth mr. baxter tell his neigbours of these judgements speaking against the sects he mentions indefinitely , when it was but against one of them in his own construction , and place his speech where it might be , and is commonly taken , and was alledged upon mr. baxters credit in pulpit , in the parish in which i taught , as spoken against antipaedobaptists , but that it is most likely mr. baxter in that passage chiefly intended to make me in particular , and other opposers of infant-baptisme odious , and the truth we hold , though he did thereby misleade men , for which the lord forgive him . yet i will adde thus much , that i finde among the errors condemned in new england , in that story the to be this . to be justified by faith is to be justified by workes : which how near it is to mr. baxters doctrine in his aphorisms of justification , thes. . . , , , , . in this treatise pag. . doubtlesse the gospel takes faith for our obedience to all gospell precepts , which he teacheth in his aphorismes , thes. . and expounds james . . of justification before god by works in a proper sense , and those were giving food , or cloathing to a brother , vers . . offering isaac on the altar , which is rather a work of the law then the gospell , ver. . rahabs receiving the messengers and sending them out another way . sect. . of the anabaptists evill lives . master baxter proceeds , christ hath told you , by their fruits yee shall know them ; we mis-interpret , when we say he means by fruit , their fals doctrine ; that were but idem per idem . hereticks may seem holy for a little while , but at last all false doctrines likely end in wicked lives . where hath there been known a society of anabaptists , since the world first knew them that have not proved wicked ? how many of these or antinomians , &c. have you known , who have not proved palpably guilty of lying , perfidivusnesse , covetousness , malice , contempt of their godly brethren , licentiousness , or seared consciences ? answ. interpreters differ about the fruits , mat. . . some by fruits understand evill life , some false doctrine , some both , some adde their want of calling : i for my part think both an evill life and a false doctrine do discover false prophets , but chiefly their false doctrine , and so do piscator , pareus , perkins , &c. because that seemes to be gods note deut. . . and in reason sith a false prophet is so named from his false doctrine , the false-hood of his doctrines best discovers that he is a false prophet . as for evill life by it self , ( which m. baxter seems to hold ) it cannot be the note whereby to know a false prophet as such , both because evill men may be true prophets , as judas for example , who was a true apostle , yet a theif , and on the other side mr. baxter confesseth heretikes may seem holy for a little while , and therefore during that time they cannot be known by their evill life : yea , many erroneous persons have continued in appearance , holy to their end . mr. baxter dares say no more but that all false doctrine likely end in wicked lives . augustin commends pelagius epist. . bertius arminius ; yea many of those who have bin reputed heretiques , have been eminent for holinesse in appearance even to their end , and thereby have prevailed . and indeed it is the common tenent of protestant divines , answering bellarmine and other papists , who deny profession of the true faith to be a note of the true church , and among other notes make the holinesse of their teachers one note , that true faith is a sufficient note of a visible church and true teacher , and that holinesse of life is not the note of a true prophet , or the want of it of a false prophet . if it were it would follow no true ministers who are vitious in life , nor to be heard , nor to be owned as pastors . and therefore mr. baxter unadvisedly perhaps in heate , or spleen , directs his neighbours to know false prophets by this note , which would if retorted prove presbyterians , heretiques as well as anabaptists . but to say by their false doctrine yee shall know false prophets , were idem per idem , the same by the same . answ . in mr. baxters logick then false doctrine , and false prophet are the same . it is true , false doctrine is the form denominating a false teacher or false prophet : but to make the forme denominating , and the subject denominated the same , is to me false doctrine in logick . are the whitenesse and the thing white , the heate and thing hot , all one ? or doth a man that knows hot water by heate , cold water by its cold , know idem per idem , the same by the same ? but mr. baxter applies his rule generally against anabaptists , and saith , where hath there been known a society of anabaptists , since the world first knew them , that proved not wicked ? answ . were this question propounded dubitatively it would the lesse move , but no man will i think take his interrogation for any other then a most peremptory determination , wherein like a right english mastive , he flies in the face not of one , or two men , or one or two societies of men , but on all the societies of anabaptists since the world first knew them , and asserts them to have proved wicked . an accusation that i should not have dared to make against the papists themselves . and for it , if there were no other thing , i may boldly say mr. baxter hath plaid the devills part with a witnesse . but you 'l say is it not true ? answ. were not cyprian and his colleagues , hemerobaptists in epiphanius , the picards who re-baptized , as the preface to the bohemian confession of the year shewes , anabaptists ; that is , baptizers againe ? and yet who doubts but they had many societies who proved not wicked ? but you 'l say they were rebaptists on another ground then the anabaptists , mr. baxter means , who deny infant-baptism ? be it so : yet it is a most bold calumny to damne all their societies as in conclusion wicked . but that mr. baxter may learne to order his pen better hereafter , he may take notice that besides the probabilities that berengarius opposed the baptizing of little ones , notwithstanding what mr. marshall alledgeth , it is more then probable by bernards epistle , his . sermon on the canticles , petrus cluniacensis his epistle against peter de bruis , and henricus , eckbertus schonaugiensis his sermon . adversus catharos in the auctarium of the biblioth : patxum tom. . and others , that there were many hundreds of years sithence , a very great number of godly societies , that did deny infant-baptisme , and in gaule and germany were baptized after infant-baptisme . but perhaps mr. baxter imagines no anabaptists ( as he calls them ) till luthers dayes . there have been many of those societies in high and low germany . will mr. baxter , a yong man that i believe never travailed out of england , fall into such exorbitant censoriousnesse as to condemne them all as in fine proving wicked ? sure i am alstedius in his sapplement to chamier de eccl. l. . c. . sect. . puts the anabaptists among those that had the garment of a good life : cassander in his epistle to the duke of gulick , and cleve cited by me in my examen part . . sect. . saith , in quibus magna ex parte pii cujusdam animi argumenta cernas . sundry other writings i have read even of those that have written against them , who either by their ingenuous confessions of some of them , or their readinesse to except against them for small infirmities , give me occasion to conceive there have been in the low countries , and elsewhere godly societies of them , and not such as in conclusion proved wicked . but perhaps mr. baxter pronounceth so of all those in england , that have been called anabaptists . if so , let him know that there have been in london churches of those called anabaptists , and are still , whose confession of faith may compare either with mr. baxter , or perhaps the assembly , for soundnesse of doctrine ; and not a few of whose teachers and members have lead a godly life to the end , and whose living members yet hold forth the faith in a godly life . and this the rather i am induced to conceive not only from mine own knowledge , and the credible testimony of others , but also from their petition to the parliament april . . . and the parliaments answer to them , and their late heart-bleedings for professors abominations in their faithfull generall epistle printed for the same man , for whom mr. baxters published bookes have been printed . but i perceive mr. baxter was willing to let his pen have the reynes , and therefore addes ; how many of these , &c. may i not as well aske the parishioners of kederminster , how many have they known that have proved so palpably guilty of the soule sins he names ? how many anabaptists or antinomists they have known , i cannot tell . mr. baxter names me for one , and i confesse his parishioners of kederminster have had meanes to know me from my cradle , as being borne and bred up , and lived a good part of my life near them : if they know me so palpably guilty of the sins mr. baxter speakes of , they shew but little love , in that they rebuke me not , but suffer sin on me , contrary to what mr. baxter hath taught them . i would have trod this passage under my foote as dirt , were it not that the devill by this and such like passages breeds such hatred , and nourisheth such fury in mens brests , that were it not for the mighty over-awing power of god , and the magistrates justice , they would quickly fall on us to destroy us . i add no more , but the lord rebuke them . sect. . of the anabaptists confident expressions , and weaknesse upon triall , and the dispute at bewdley , jan. . . yet mr. baxter hath not done with us . they have confident expressions , sayth he , to shake poore ignorant soules , whom god will have discovered in the day of triall : but when they meet with any that can search out their fallacies , how little have they to say ? you know i have had as much opportunity to try their strength as most : and i never yet met with any in garison , or army , that could say any thing which might stagger a solid man . answ. for other men i cannot make answer : my own expressions in my bookes and sermons have no more confidence then strength of proofe , or answer , as there was occasion . as solid men as mr. baxter have met with that which not only hath staggered , but also hath brought them to assent to my tenet . me thinks the institution , mat. . . the practise of iohn baptist , the apostles , and first churches , who did baptize no infants that can be found , might stagger as solid a man as mr. baxter , and it is very likely , mr. baxter met with some in garison or army that alledged these , or some of these to him . for my part i cannot tell how to construe it any other then a judgement of god on men that hold so earnestly against papists , and prelates , and presbyterians too , that in gods worship humane inventions are to be left as will-worship , and yet contend so much for infant-baptisme so cleerly proved , and so frequently confessed , not only by learned papists , but also many of the more ingenuous of the prelatical party , and others , to be onely a church tradition . yea , the oxford divines in their late reasons of the present judgement of the vniversity of oxford about the solemne covenant , &c. approved by generall consent in a full convocation , june . . doe sect. . pag. . say , that without the consentient judgement and practise of the vniversall church , ( which they are not able to prove ) they should be at a losse , when they are called upon for proofe in the point of baptizing infants . but there yet remaines that which it seemes was first in his intention , though last in execution ; to wit , the blazing abroade his dispute with me ianua . . at bewdley , of which he speaks thus . you heard in my late publick dispute at bewdley ianuary . with mr. tombes , who is taken to be the ablest of them in the land , and one of the most moderate , how little they can say even in the hardest point of baptisme ; what gross absurdities they are driven to , and how little tender consciencious fear of erring is left among the best . ans. mr baxter not content to be cryed up by his party , hath thought good to glory in his imagined victory , and to crow over me in print , for that which i am assured the most considerate and godly auditors of that dispute have thought meet to mourn , as perceiving it to have been his hour of temptation : and god i hope will yet open his eyes , to see how he hath been abused , to become an instrument to hinder the receiving of truth , and the ringleader to a party of men , who neither mind the things of christ , nor regard mr baxter , saving wherein they make use of the keenness of his spirit , and abilities , to oppose the truth , and to uphold their repute . but to the matter , mr baxter reckons me among the heretiques he had before described , yet with difference . in an accusation of heresie , jerom saith , a man is not to be patient . mr baxters opinions about justification , universal grace in amyralds middle way avowed by him in this place of his epistle , his tenet about the magistrates being an officer under christ as mediator in his aphorisms of iustification , pag. . may and are taken to savour more of heresie then any tenet i hold ; yea sure , as our protestant divines are wont to answer papists , that the tenets of the protestants denying their additions , when otherwise the same faith is avouched , cannot be justly charged as heresie ; so neither can i be justly charged with heresie , who do avouch the baptism appointed by christ , and practised by his apostles , and onely deny that the consequences from the old testament are convincing to prove infant-baptism : they that alter christs way , and introduce another way , from circumcision , or the jewish church-state , as mr baxter doth , are more justly chargeable with heresie . his conceits of me i regard not : his neighbors of kederminster might hear how little i did say , but surely they could not hear in that dispute how little i could say , much less how little anabaptists so called can say in the hardest point of baptism : his neighbors and others may know by this , and my other writings and sermon● that i can say more then i said then ; and i know other learned men who can say more in the point then disputed , though i then said enough in answer to mr baxters arguments then produced , notwithstanding my care to speak no more then was necessary , and my natural hesitancy in answering an argument at the first hearing . and how ever the business was packed , to cry up a baxter , as if they had been a company of boys at a game , yet the whole auditory might know , and many did , that mr baxter gave no sufficient answer to that which i alledged , that no good argument could be drawn from the infants of the lews visible church membership to our infants visible church-membership , because the visible church of the iews was the whole nation brought into covenant together by abraham and moses without previous instruction ; but the christian visible church had another state and constitution , being gathered by apostles and other preachers , by teaching them the gospel , and thereby making them disciples , some in one country , city , family , some in another ; no one country , or city , or tribe together , but so many of all as the lord vouchsafed to call by his word and spirit . which was enough to answer the main argument mr baxter brought from deut. . , , . rom. . , . the grossest of absurdities he conceived i was driven to , i take it was that i conceived [ thou ] deut. . . not to comprehend little ones , of which i have given account above : what other gross absurdities i was driven to , when mr baxter will shew them , i shall then make an answer : he neither did charge me with any such gross absurdities , nor could drive me to any , when he and i had a whole afternoons conference at kederminster in his chamber with him alone , ianua . . after that he knew my answers to his arguments , delivered in a sermon at bewdly chappel , ianua . . and for his last censure , as if there were little tender conscientious fear of erring left in me , it shews a very great height of pride in him , to take on him to judg my spirit , and uncharitableness or malignity towards me , who would thus censure me , when if he had any spark of charity to me , he might have perceived a very great and consciencious fear of erring in me , who , afore i did publish any thing , did first try what the london ministers could say for infant baptism , in six days private dispute , and after applyed my self to a committee of the assembly , and particularly to mr marshal , and waited nineteen moneths afore i published my writings about infants baptism , as may be seen in my examen and apology , not unknown to mr baxter : yea , my proceedings with mr baxter shewed the same fear of erring , having , afore i would adventure to preach at bewdly , first endevored to get his animadversions in writing on some part of my review , not yet printed , which he would not yeeld : and after that many moneths endeavored to get his arguments in writing , that my neighbors and my self might be satisfied , and i desist from preaching what i intended , or else might go more surely to work in asserting my tenet . but it seems mr baxter was resolved to lie close , till he could by provocations draw me to a publique dispute , presuming he should carry the fame of a victory , which would serve his and the rest of his parties turn , to lessen my esteem , and to hold the people in the superstition of infant-baptism . and for himself , i leave it to his own conscience and understanding men to judge , how little conscientions feare , of erring he had , who would not , though so often requested , communicate his arguments in writing to me , to be examined afore he vented them so openly ; and how little brotherly care he had to keepe me from error , by giving me his arguments to stay me from preaching that which his speeches provoked me to , and he knew as i am assured that i did intend . to conclude i am enforced to expresse it as a grievance , that i have neither found that love of truth , candor , nor love to me , either before , or in the dispute , or since , which i expected in mr. baxter , and which encouraged me to yeeld to the dispute mentioned by him . as for the two flings he hath at me in the sixth direction of his epistle , where he mentions some that say , no truth must be concealed for peace , and saith , they have usually as little of the one as the other , i had hoped i had satisfied mr. baxter in a letter , by acquainting him with what limitation i meant , if not expressed my position thereof , which if he had been willing to deale fairely with me , he should have mentioned . as for mr. baxters wayes , how far they are from truth or peace , may easily be discerned , by his managing the business between him and me : my friendly and ready coming to him , ianua . . shewed my desire of both . the other is in those words , temptations are now come neer your doors , which i imagine he spake because of my vicinity to them : his neighbors i think will bear me witness i taught them many truths when they did hear me , which formerly was very frequent , and i still tender their good so far , as to be unwilling to mislead them , how ever they may think of me by mr baxters descriptions of me . and were i fit to give them counsel , i would warn them to take heed of the temptations that are indeed now come neer their doors , in the high esteem they have of mr baxter , which may cause them to drink in his errors , of which i have said before he seems to me not to be free ; and others in all parts , as his own words in a letter to me do import , do charge him with more largely then i do . other things in his treatise i let them pass : but for the point in dispute between him and me , if he add any thing more , as i am told he intends , if the lord assist i shall examine it when i have it in writing : and in the mean time do wish him mentem sanam in corpore sano . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- mr. baxter in the se● - everlasting rest pag. . hee sent out ministers and not magistrats to bring in the world . and pag. he saith , the nation of the jewes , and all proselyted gentiles were holy before mr baxter himself in this his book of the saints everlasting rest , part. . ch. . sect. . p. ● expresseth christs charge to his apostles thus go , preach and make me disciple of all nations . see field of the church . book ch. . morton apol. cath part . . l. . c. . alsted supplem . cham. de eccles. l. . c. sect . vide dr chaloners credo ecclesiam catholicam . davenant exhort . to peace . true old light exalted above pretended new light, or, treatise of jesus christ as he is the light which enlightens every one that comes into the world : against the sense both of the quakers, arminians, and other assertors of universal grace, whose light is proved to be darkness / delivered in nine sermons, by john tombes, b.d., and commended to publick view by mr. richard baxter. tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) true old light exalted above pretended new light, or, treatise of jesus christ as he is the light which enlightens every one that comes into the world : against the sense both of the quakers, arminians, and other assertors of universal grace, whose light is proved to be darkness / delivered in nine sermons, by john tombes, b.d., and commended to publick view by mr. richard baxter. tombes, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by a.m. for thomas underhill ..., london : . reproduction of original in bodleian library. table of contents: p. 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texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng jesus christ -- sermons. society of friends -- sermons. sermons, english -- th century. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion true old light exalted above pretended new light or treatise of jesus christ , he is the light which enlightens every one that comes into the world . 〈◊〉 the sense both of the quakers , arminians , and other assertors of universal grace ; whose light is proved to be darkness . delivered in nine sermons , by john tombes , b. d. and commended to publick view by m r richard baxter . psal. . . 〈◊〉 thy light and thy truth , let them lead me , let them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to thy holy hill , and to thy tabernacle . london , by . a. m. for thomas underhill at the sign of the anchor and bible in pauls church-yard , . to the honourable s r thomas widrington knight , serjeant teril , & serjeant fountain , lords commissioners of the great seale of england . the incessant and importunate inculcation of this monition , by the miserably deluded quakers [ look to the light within you ] not distinguishing but confounding it with christ , giving thereby cause to conceive , that they acknowledg no other christ as their saviour , but such a fancied one , as they have imagined to be in them , being sadly resented by me , as causing one of the most pernicious schismes of our dayes , in drawing many weak , though perhaps well meaning soules , to neglect scriptures , ministry of setled teachers , christian-church-communion ( which tends to atheisme , irreligion , and perdition ) moved me at first to preach , and since to compose for the press these ensuing sermons . in which i have endeavoured to shew christ to be , and how he is the true universall lighting light , and the insufficiency of that magnified light in each , which those forenamed erring persons with the assertors of universall grace and selfedisposing freewill of man have avouched . it is charged hotly by many on those whom they term anabaptists , though not rightly , as if they were authors or fautors of this delusion of ( quakers and much to that purpose was objected against my self by that reverend brother , whose epistle is prefixed to these sermons , in his letter to me , which is answered by me in the d. section of the d. part of my review intitled antipoedo baptism ) but i hope that by our declaration printed decemb. . last ( to which i find two quakers have made injurious answers ) and by my answer in that section , together with the reading of these sermons , the truth will be cleared , and my self with those other brethren who joyned with me in that declaration , will be discharged from those evill surmises and insinuations which heighten our devisions : for the taking away or lessening of which if i were offered upon the sacrifice and service of the faith of gods elect , i should count my self happy . the author of the epistle hereto annexed imputes the rise or spreading at least of the errors of quakers , and divisions of the godly to a popish jesuiticall practice , for the undermining and ruine of the churches of christ in those nations and this commonwealth , and he feares nothing so much as a toleration of popery in england , as the meanes to destroy the protestant churches now near an utter destruction by the union of popish princes and plots of romishs agents . i hope the lord will not so desert the parliament , your honours , or any other of the assertors of our just liberties , as to allow such a liberty , as will bring the whole state and all the churches of god into the servitude of the roman man of sinne . we have had experience of their and satans devices by them , their implacable hatred of all that idolize not the pope and a piece of bread , to make us wary how we permit such serpents to lye in our bosomes . their activity , subtility , perfidiousness , cruelty beyond any sort of men , that ever yet appeared in the world , especially to really godly persons , should alarm and awaken us to bethink our selves , afore it be too late , of preventing their intrenching among us . and sith quakerism is but a posterne to let in popery , which english protestants would undoubtedly fight against to the death , if it marched under its own colours and leaders , it is necessary that such an eye be had on quakers , as that the preaching of the gospell be not hindred by them , nor their growth such as may oppress those , whom they revile and hate without a cause . to shew the falsehood of the chief foundations of popery the supposed cathoticism of the roman church , the supremacy of the pope , and the truth of their unwritten traditions , i have written a book now in press , which hath an epistle of the same reverend brother ( whose epistle is here printed , ) prefixed , by which appeares our union and concurrence in the common cause of christ against oppugners of it . and having regard to your honours , and the esteem which is due to you as being a constellation of the first magnitude in this our commonwealth , i presume to offer this writing to your honours for your use , and to subscribe my selfe your honours humble servant in christ john tombes . lemster in hereford shire the d day of the last moneth vulg . febr. . to the reader . reader , if thou live in england , it 's like thou hast heard of ( if not seen ) that new and strange generation of people called quakers : and if thou be one that hast not lost thy faith and wit , i may presume that thou art grieved for their folly and impiety , and wonderest at their brazen-faced impudency , and lamentest the dishonour which they bring upon the christian name , and blushest at them as the nations shame . but all understand not their originall and tendency : who sends them forth ; and what is their designe . had there been no other discovery of these , they are legible enough in their doctrines and their workes . he that is no stranger to popery , and is conversant in the writings of the fryars and jesuites , may perceive who taught them their doctrine of universall sufficient light ; of perfection , against imputed righteousness ; of the necessity of an infallible judge ; that concupiscence antecedent to consent is no sin ; their undervaluing the scriptures , and many the like . the principal work of the papists and quakers is to take off the people from the holy scriptures , and from the reformed faithfull ministers . this is none of the work of christ , who teacheth his discipies by his spirit , word , and ministers conjunctly . he that would have no ministry , would have no church and no christ : and he that would have another church and ministry , in reason should tell us plainly which is the church and ministry which he would have . if it be the papal , why do they not speak out and say so : doth jugling suit with matters of eternall life or death ? if it be not the papal but the quakers , it cannot be the church and ministry of christ. for the church and ministers of christ have been not only conspicuous since his ascension and sending the holy ghost , but also have been that part of the world which providence hath tendered , and for which the earth hath been sustained , and for whose happinesse all things do conspire . but the quakers church ( if they have any ) is but about ten or twelve years old at utmost : unless the weigelians , paracelsians , behmenists , and the rest of the fanaticks in germany , or the familists in england and new-england may be accounted their progenitors : and yet their church will not be found to be of two hundred years continuance . indeed stubbe ( sir h. vane's egregious vindicator ) had neither wit , nor modesty , nor fear enough to restrain him , from telling the world ( in his malice , pag. . ) that it was ignorantly said of me , that [ the quakers had no being in the world , till a few years ago ] and the gnostick adds that [ as to the generality of their opinions and deportment , he doth avow it out of as sure and good records as any can be produced , that they can plead more for themselves from the first two hundred seventy years , then mr. baxter for the present orthodox religion laid down in the saints everlasting rest , or the confession of the assembly . ] but when will the undertaker produce these records ? such a heart and face might have served him to avow , that the holy apostles were railing lying quakers , or whatever filthiness had come into his thoughts . some of their abominable opinions and practices , have troubled the world since the romish iniquity did abound : but no times were freer from them then the first , and none more unlike to them then christ and his apostles , however satan would gain credit to his impieties , or discredit to the gospel by his apish imitations . the witness of their late leader james nailor is regardable , who in his recantation saith that they are [ unclean spirits gene out from the unity of the truth and light by which we have been called and gathered into one christ jesus , the head over all his , blessed for ever : whose name hath been greatly dishonoured by many wilde actings , and his innocent spirit grieved , and many simple souls deceived , — and that the work of the murderer and devourer is therein , against the life of god in his temple : which though they seek entrance under pretence of humility ; promising some great things , and more holiness in that way , to steal into simple minds , yet being got in , exalts himself above the seed of god , and tramples the meek spirit under foot . — and by this ( saith he ) you shall all perceive that spirit , whatever it pretends , it will secretly withdraw your entire love from the flock of god , already gathered , and cool your affections and zeal towards their present meetings : and if you judge it not there , it will grow on with an evil eye , to spie out for their failings ; and to delight to hear of them with an hidden joy , whispering them to others , and adding thereunto , with a desire to see them broken , and their nakedness laid open , if anything be amiss . and thus it hath wrought in a mystery of wickedness in some unjudged , untill it be seated in the throne of open enmity and strife against the lambs of light , preferring the society ef the prophane before them , and taking part therewith against them , joyning to any who seek to scatter them . and whatever pretence this spirit covers it sellf with , this i declare against it , ( having been kept by the good hand of god , to see it revealed in its ground and end ) that it is the old spirit of the ranters , which now in a new way makes head against the light of christ and life of the cross , which is the only thing that stands in its way , by condemning its filthiness in every conscience . ] thus speaks james nailor , after his lamentable experience , and the papers he hath written ( against me and others ) for their way . and yet his followers will not be undeceived , nor follow him in his recantation . had they their will against the ministry in this land , would it promote the gospel , and the salvation of the people ? who would instruct them publikely and privately ? as constantly , and diligently , and soundly , as now they are instructed ? if there were joyin hell , what joyfull tidings would it be to the infernal spirits , to hear of the accomplishment of the desires of the quakers , and their partakers ? the accusations against us , which the grand accuser of the brethren hath put into their mouthes , are partly from our hearts ( unknown to them ) and partly from our duties ( imputed to us for our crimes ) and partly from our afflictions ( in which they should rather compassionate us , then reproach us . ) yesterday in the congregation and the streets , a stranger that never saw my face before , cryed out [ the judgement of the lord is gone out against thee , thou hypocrite , thou painted sepulcher , that hast an outside of humility , but an inside of pride ; an outside of godliness , but within is envy , wrath , malice , and all wickedness : in the day of thy misery thou shalt remember me . ] when i heard the man , i blessed god that had caused me to be contented with his own approbation , and given me the testimony of my conscience , that my soul , and life , and all that i have is devoted to him , and that i have a most just heart-searching judge , that yet hath the compassions of a father . and i wondered that sin should ever prevail so far with men , as to harden them to so open and impudent an usurpation of the prerogative of god , while they pretend to know the hearts of men , as soon as they see their faces . and i thought with compassion on the state of weak unsetled consciences , that are like young horses among drums and guns , that are frightened meerly by a noise . as if any man that could but repeat a scripture-threatning , and speak terribly , and counterfeit himself a prophet , should frighten us from our peace and faith . and it is our very preaching and labours for our peoples souls , that is the principal thing they hate us for : and the more laborious and faithfull any man is , the more maliciously do they oppose him ; being incomparably more patient with a whoremonger , or drunkard , or prophane worldling , then with such , so that our diligence ( so strictly commanded us by god ) is with them our crime . that we do not ( as the old worldly readers did ) follow the plow and cart , and labour about earthly business , when we should be doing the spiritual work that we are engaged in , and that our peoples souls require , though we are commanded to [ meditate upon these things , and give our selves wholly to them ] tim. . . a good minister of jesus christ , being one that is nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine , whereto they do attain . ] vers . . the great word by which they think to make us odious to the people ( working on their carnal minds and interests ) is that we are hirelings , because ( forsooth ) we bargain for so much , or else we will not preach . but satan is a liar : by gods assistance , we will preach while we have life , and strength , and liberty , though instead of maintaining us , they spit in our faces . but we dare not encourage our people to be ungratefull monsters , nor sacrilegious theeves , to detain the tithes or glebe that never was their own , nor they nor their fathers never paid for , nor had the least pretence of title to . for my own part i never took tithe , by suit or force to my self , and resolved still that i never would do it : but if ever i were put to suit , i give order to the collectors , to give all that they recover to the poor , with all the damages and addition , that so neither i may have tithes by law-suit , nor the wicked worldlings be encouraged to damn their souls by sacriledge , while i connive at it . and sure i am that it was god that told the israelites , mal. . , . they were cursed with a curse , even the whole nation , for robbing god in tithes and offerings . and that christ saith to the tithers of mint and cummin , mat. . . these things ought ye to have done , and not to leave the other undone : and that the primitive christians sold all , and laid at the apostles feet , for the maintenance of themselves and of the poor : and that the holy ghost hath fully decided the controversie , cor. . that we have power to forbear working , vers . . and not to go on warfare at our own charges , vers . . and that the law about church-maintenance is so far from being repealed , that paul proves he saith not these things as a man , because the law doth speak the same , vers . . the ox is not to be muzzled that treadeth out the corn ; which god speaks in care of his ministers and churches , though quakers would have more care of oxen. do we not know that they which minister about holy things , live of the things of the temple ? ( even on a stated maintenance ) and they which wait at the altar , are partakers with the altar ? even so hath the lord ordained , that they which preach the gospel , should live of the gospel , vers . , . is it a crime to eat and be cloathed ? or are ministers most unworthy of their daily bread ? shall lawyers and physicians live on their professions , and only the preachers of the gospel be thought unworthy of any competent maintenance in the world ? or will not christ ( that will reward a cup of cold water given to his servants , taking it as done to him ) severely one day reckon with these unthankfull men , that grudged a competent maintenance to his ministers , and made it their reproach that they live ? when he had generally required , g●l . . , . [ let him that is taught in the word , communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things : be not deceived , god is not mooked : for whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap . ] and yet we desire none of their communications : but only that they deny us not that which never was their own . but they say , that their teachers are content with food and raiment ; and so should we . to which i answer , we are content with it : where there is one minister that hath much more , i believe there is ten , if not twenty that are hardly put to it , to have ordinary food and raiment for themselves and families : and yet if they be enabled to relieve the poor , or to breed up their children ( at least ) to some honest trade , it would not have been grudged them , if their holy doctrine had not first been hated , and these apostates proved more ungratefull monsters , then many turks or heathens are . the affliction with which they reproach us , is , the unreformedness of our people ; they tell us , as the papists do , that none are converted by our ministry . but how ill the lord will take it at their hands to blaspheme the workings of the holy ghost , and deny his grace , that manifesteth it self in thousands of his servants , and to put the name of satan on the sheep of christ , these wretches are shortly like to know , to their everlasting horror , if repentance prevem it not . to our joy , and the praise of the grace of god , we see ( though not in all places alike ) so many hundreds and thousands of souls converted , within these few years by our ministry , that all the malicious spirits in hell , and slanderous tongues on earth , shall not deprive us of our comfort , nor god of the honour , nor these converts of the happiness hereof . but what if some ministers do labour with less encouragement and success ? is that their fault ? or is it long of wicked hearts ? and of slanderers that reproach their ministry ? when christ bid his apostles shake off the dust of their feet against the refusers of his gospel , and told them , it should be more easie for sodom in the day of judgement , then for them ; would they have cast this as a reproach upon the apostles , which was the sin and dreadfull misery of the people ? o what deceivers of poor souls are these ? that would turn the eyes of obstinate sinners thus from the observing of their own iniquities . and what ! are we better then the apostles ? and then christ himself ? how few did he convert , that spake as never man spake ? how many thousand remained malicious cruel enemies ? and how many places did the apostles preach in , where they converted not one ( i think ) for a hundred , that some of us see converted in one parish ? and why do not the papists and quakers observe , how they condemn their own ministry by this argument ? do they make papists and quakers of all where they come ? how few do they win in a whole countrey ? i have here allowed them to dispute in publike ; and they frequently preach and rail in the market place : and yet it is but a few weeks , since they passed through this town with this lamentation . [ what miserable places are kederminster and bewdeley , that we cannot convert one soul in them ! ] and yet to make a man a quaker , is a far easier matter then to make him an honest godly man : as it 's easier to make a man an uncharitable railer , then a meek and charitable christian. their great pretence , when they dishonour the scripture and the ministry , is to lead men to a light or word of god within them ; and this is their cry in our assemblies and our streets [ hearken to the light and word within you : ] and the sufficiency of this they clamorously defend ; and accuse us grievously for contradicting them . but what mean these dark contentious men , when their words are freed from confusion . do they affirm that all men have the light of reason ? and who denieth it of any , but ideots and infants ? do they maintain that reason by the help of natural evidence in the creatures , may know much of god and duty , even so much as to leave men without excuse , at the barre of god ? and who denieth this ? do they maintain that this light is from jesus christ , both as the author and restorer of nature ? and by whom among us is this denyed ? do they say that repaired or reprived nature , may be fitly called grace ? about this also we have no mind to quarrell with them ; so they will not with pelagius exclude supernatural grace hereby . do they hold that common supernatural light , outward and inward , objective and inherent , is given to many ( at least ) of the unsanctified , that live under the preaching of the gospel ? and who contradicteth them in this ? do they hold that , as the sun is appointed in nature , to be the light of every man that cometh into the world , though some parts of the earth were never illuminated by it , and blind men partake not of its light , and the night or shutting our eyes or windows may exclude it ; so christ is by office the sun in the world of grace , giving men actually all the gracious light they have , and being sufficient himself to enlighten all , and giving them an illuminating word , which is sufficient in its own kind , to do its own part ; though many are blind , and many for their sin are deprived of the communication of this light ? why all this we maintain as well as they . do they say that all this light ( within us and without us ) is to be hearkened to and obeyed ? why what man did they ever speak with , that 's a christian , that denieth it ? but if they make mans reason in faculty or act , or any of this inward light , to be christ personally within us , and deny any christ but such a one that is essentially one with such a light , ( that is , with every wicked man ) we abhor this infidelity and blasphemy , and marvell that such hellish darknesse should have the face to assume the name of light . if they maintain that the common reason of the world , is sufficient to bring men to the faith of christ , without any other kind of light , from the spirit , or written or preached word ; i would fain be resolved in these few questions . q. . how comes it to passe that all nations that never heard the gospel , are utterly void of faith in christ , when the nations that have the gospel do generally know him more or lesse ? q. . why did not the world believe in christ , even generally , before his coming ? if reason was then a sufficient light ? q. . why did christ preach himself while he was on earth , if the people had all sufficient light before ? q. . why did he send his apostles to preach through the world , if the people had sufficient light before ? q. . why did he set pastours and teachers in his church , if all have a sufficient light within them ? q. . why do the quakers go up and down teaching men their own doctrines , if all men have sufficient light already ? q. . why do they cry out against us as being in darknesse , when all men have sufficient light within them ? q. . will they pray for more light and grace , or not ? if not , they are impiously proud : if yea , then it seems they have not yet light and grace sufficient . q. . whereas they say , the light within is sufficient , if obeyed : our question is , whether it be sufficient to make men obey it ? for that 's the grace that we are speaking of , that causeth men to hearken , believe and obey : for faith is not of our selves , but it is the gift of god : and mens hearts must be opened , as lydia's was , act. . to hear and receive the truth revealed . now to say , that the light or grace which is given to cause us to believe and obey , is sufficient if we will believe and obey , is ridiculous : as if christ should have said to lazarus , [ i will raise thee , if thou wilt first raise thyself . ] q. . but how can any light be sufficient , ( were a man never so obedient , ) to reveal that which is not manifested by it , or by any revelation that doth accompany it ? no light or revelation among the heathens in america , doth tell them that christ was incarnate , dyed , rose , ascended , or intercedeth for us , or is the king , priest , or teacher of the church , or will raise the dead , and judge the world . how then can their light be sufficient to help them to the belief of this ? i think it 's past controversie , that no man hath sufficient grace for salvation , till his last breath . for if god adde not more , for his preservation , excitation and perseverance , all will be lost . but this point ( which quakers most insist on ) the reverend author hath very judiciously handled in this treatise , and therefore i shall say no more of it . the truth is here opened ( to the shaming of their errours ) with great scripture evidence ; which impartially considered , may easily convince all that believe the scriptures : and make it appear that the light that is in these men is darknesse ; ( luk. . . ) though the difference , and too-eager disputations between the reverend author and my self , about the point of infant-baptism , be too well known , yet it is our desire that it be as much known , that we desire to hold the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace ; as members of the same head and body , uniting our force for the common truths against the pernicious adversaries thereof : and though we own not in each other , or our selves , the discerned errours of doctrine or life , which through humane frailty we may be guilty of ; neverthelesse , whereto we have already attained , we desire to walk by the same rule , and mind the same things ; hoping that if in any thing we be otherwise minded , god shall reveal even this unto us . ( phil. . , . ) i think it is time for men that have any sense of the common interest of christianity and reformation , to lay by those contentions that have brought us so low , and almost made us a prey to the common romish adversaries : the lord grant it be not too late . the two great works of the jesuites in england , are to procure liberty for the profession of popery , and to weaken , if not take down a fixed able ministry : they cannot do this work of themselves , without the help of men professing a zeal for reformation . but how much they have promoted it by such hands , and how much they are likely further by them to promote it , i had rather lament with daily tears , than open to a generation of deluded souls , that will not believe they are doing the work of the devil and the pope , till they find themselves in rome , or the inquisition . it astonisheth me to foresee , ( if a wonder of mercy do not prevent it , ) how these contetious souls will be worryed by their consciences , and ready even to eat their flesh , when they see ( by the conjunction of forreign and domestick papists ) the cause of christ once trodden down in the hand , and see how they betrayed the gospel of their posterity , into the hands of tyrannous idolaters , and how the familistical juglers of these times , made use of them to set up popery : which ●ow is the work that is already so farre carried on , that all our endeavours , if united , are like to be little enough to prevent . we are not so childish as 'to fear lest quaking should become the national religion : we know these squibs will soon be out . but those that animate them , have italy and spain , and austria , and france , armies and navies , and swarmes of fryers and jesuites at their backs ; and i take their liberty and dominion , to be words almost of the same signification . but let the curse of the almighty defender of his church , yet follow the underminers of his holy truth , and confound the builders of this babel ! and never let the deliverances in , and from the powder-plot , be buried in the ruines of an ungratefull apostatized land ! when you hear , that among our rulers it shall be endeavoured , that liberty for popery shall be granted , and secured from interruption from any future parliaments , then remember what i say , and let the consciences of those that have betrayed us , be awakened , and let them see then what friends they have been to our religion , and whither their uncharitable perversnesse hath brought a miserable land. i have already told the episcopal brethren , that bishop usher and i did fully agree in half an hour , and therefore it is not long of us , that our wound is yet unhealed . and ( though i never treated with mr. tombes about such a matter ) i am confident that he and i should agree in one daiestreaty , upon termes of communion , charity , and forbearance , among those of our several waies . and therefore if we yet continue unhealed , let the shame and horror lie on them that are obstinate in their uncharitable waies . and that it should be harder to agree with the congregational brethren , is incredible . why then is there not long ago , a setled concord among all these ? that yet there should be a frustration of all assemblies and endeavours to these ends , and so easie , so necessary , so christian a work should be yet undone ( yea obstinately resisted ) after so many years experience and opportunity , till we are all ready to be devoured by the common adversary , this is our astonishment , and englands shame , and especially of some that have been the hinderers , and will cost the consciences of some men dear , when god ariseth to judge the earth , and vindicate his honour which they betrayed , by their self-blinding and church-troubling pride . reader , as i invite thee to the perusall of this treatise for thy edification , so do i most earnestly intreat thee , if thou beest a divider , to study the nature of holy charity , and catholick unity , and follow us that desire to lead thee to the love and concord of the saints . and to further this work , i intreat thee also impartially to peruse mr. william allen's retractation of seperation ; which if thou wilt do with a christian frame of spirit , then go on to destroy the church by divisions , and further their work that would betray us to the papists , if thou canst . if our wickednesse have not caused god to passe an irreversible decree , of departing from us , and leaving england to be a stye of romish abominations , he will yet cause his people to retreat from their divisions , and presently to hear the voice of peace : for which i shall daily pray and groan , and labour according to my power ; and if god deny it me , and tell me this is not a world that 's fit for so great a mercy , i hope i shall long the more for heaven , and cry and wait , for the glorious appearing of the prince of peace . come lord jesus , come quickly . amen . richard baxter . october . the contents . serm. i. christ the light. sect. . of the evangelists scope , method , the reading and meaning of joh. . . sect. . christ is the light , and the term light , explained . sect. . christ is light as the prince of life . sect. . christ is light as the lord of glory . sect. . christ is light as cause of peace and joy. sect. . christ is light in respect of his purity and wisdome . sect. . christ is light in respect of truth and grace . sect. . the application in a double use , to see the estate of men without christ , and to draw our eyes to him . serm. ii. christ the true light. sect. . christ no counterfeit light. sect. . christ more then a typical light. sect. . other lights not lights , in comparison of christ. sect. . christ the original light. sect. . christ the perfect light. sect. . christ the effectual inlightning light. sect. . christ was the true light in respect of the truth of his word sect. . application by way of vindication of our selves , from the accusation of quakers , as if we denied the light , john . . and warning to shun false lights . serm. iii. christ the inlightning light. sect. . christ inlightens all things with their natural light as creatour . sect. . christ inlightens the world with the knowledge of god as the prophet of the church . sect. . christ as high priest enlightens with the light of pea and joy in god. sect. . christ as king of saints enlightens with the light of glory . sect. . christ enlightens by his natural power as gods son , and by special commission as sent of god. sect. . christ enlightens by his preaching , example , spirit , apostles , now in this time ; by his power and glory in the world to come . sect. . christ enlightens by reason of his own lustre , and his fathers design to shew him to the world . sect. . application by way of inference , that we are to bless god for christs enlightening , and all that are christs are children of light. serm. iv. men coming into the world need light from christ. sect. . the necessity of christs enlightening is asserted , because of the blindness which is in all at birth . sect. . universal corruption at birth , is proved from joh. . . sect. . vacuity of light without christ enlightening , is proved from rom. . , . rom. . , , . . cor. . . mar. . , jam. . . sect. . vacuity of light without christ enlightening , is proved from gen. . . & . . job . . & . . & . , , . & , . psal. . . jer. . . & . . and experience . sect. . every man needs enlightening by christ , by reason of the many evils consequent on sin . sect. . application to make us sensible of sins evil , and the worlds vanity , and to provoke us to seek a treasure above , and light from christ to comfort us . serm. v. every man hath light from christ to make him inexcusable . sect. . a natural light from christ is yeelded to be in every man , and the opinions of free-willers of its sufficiency are set down . sect. . the opinion of the quakers concerning a light in each man , is enquired into . sect. . some light is in the most barbarous , yet the knowledge of the most refined gentiles , may be conceived to come from some acquaintance with the written law or tradition from adam . sect. . the light without the written word which was in the gentiles , in the utmost extent of it was imperfect . sect. . the gentiles light by nature served to restrain from sin and to leave men inexcusable . sect. . application to justifie us against quakers , and to warn us , that we act not against our light. serm. vi. containing thirty arguments out of scripture against the quakers opinion , of the sufficiency of a light in every man to guide him to god. serm. vii . every mans light within him is not of it self a sufficient safe guide unto god. sect. . ten reasons more are urged against the quakers opinion , of the sufficiency of the light in every man to guide him to god. sect. . objections of the quakers for the universality and sufficiency of light in men , are answered . serm. viii . all spiritual saving light is from christ. sect. . all spiritual saving light of knowledge , peace , joy , hope , life , and glory , is from christ. sect. . christ enlightens gentiles as well as jews with spiritual light. sect. . there is not sufficient direction in the acts of gods common providence , to lead men to the knowledge of gods grace in christ. sect. . application to move us gentiles to rejoyce in this light , and not to rest in humane reason . serm. ix . christ is to be chosen and followed as our light , whereunto we are exhorted to use him as our light , and directions given to that end . books published by the author . christs commination against scandalizers , on luk. . , . printed for richard royston at the sign of the angel in ivy-lane london . jehovah jireh , or gods providence in delivering the godly , in two sermons on pet. . . on occasion of preserving bristoll from a plot to deliver it to prince rupert , march . . printed for michael sparks at the blew bible in green arbour london . fermentum pharisaeorum , or the leaven of pharisaical will-worship , in a sermon on mat. . . printed for andrew crook at the green dragon in pauls chruch-yard london . anthropolatria , or the sin of glorying in men , on cor. . . printed for john bellamy at the three golden lions in cornhill london two treatises concerning infant-baptisme , to wit an exercitation and examen of mr stephen marshall's sermon , printed for george whitington , and to be sold by w. larnar . an apology for the two treatises , printed for g. calvert at the black spread eagle at the west end of pauls london . an antidote against the venome of a passage of m r richard baxter's epistle before his book of rest , printed for thomas brewster at the three bibles at the west end of pauls london . an addition to the apology , in a letter to m r robert baillee of scotland , printed by henry hills next door to the sign of the peacock in aldersgate-street london . praecursor , or a forerunner to the review , printed for the same . antipoedobaptisme , or the first part of the full review of the dispute concerning infant-baptisme , printed for henry cripps and lodowick lloyd in popes head ally near lumbard-street london . a plea for antipoedobaptists against m r john crag's dispute and sermon at abergavenny , printed for henry hills above named . antipoedobaptisme , or the second part of the full review of the dispute concerning infant-baptisme , printed for the same . joannis tombes beudleiensis refutatio positionis doctoris henrici savage londini typis henrici hills . antipoedobaptisme , or the third part of the full review of the dispute concerning infant-baptisme , london printed for henry hills above named . felo dese , being a collection of twenty arguments against infant-baptisme , out of m r richard baxter's second disputation of right to sacraments , with an answer to his ten reasons for his practice of infant-baptisme , printed for the same . a short catechisme about baptisme , containing the chief grounds of the controversies concerning it , in fourty questions and answers , printed for the same . true old light exalted , printed for thomas underhill atthe anchor and bible in pauls church-yard london . christ the light. serm. i. joh. . . that was the true light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world . sect. . of the evangelists scope , method , the reading and meaning of joh. . . the gospel of john , the longest liver of the apostles ( as hierome termes him in his catalogue of ecclesiastick writers ) was written last of the four , and , as the matter gives us occasion to conceive , to supply the things omitted by the rest , and so might be termed the paralipomena , or things left , as the greeks term the book by the hebrews termed the words of daies , by us , the chronicles or records of times . that it was written in opposition to the new fancies or haeresies of ebien , cerinthus , and other fanatiques , is intimated by iraeneus lib. . adv . haer . c. . . and others . against whom he opposeth the antiquity , divinity , and operation of christ in certain aphorismes , set down in the first verses . and then to distinguish him from john the baptist , he declareth . johns mission , ver . . . his businesse , ver . . . his inferiority to christ , ver . . . christs preeminence above him , ver . . which words are spoken of christ jesus , whom john terms the word , ver . . who is said to be flesh , and to dwell among us , ver . . of whom john testified , ver . to have been his ancient ; and , whether they are the words of john baptist , as is conceived , or the evangelist , as seems most probable , they shew his excellency above john baptist , who was denied to be the light , though he were that he might bear witnesse of the light . heinsius exercit . sacr . l. . c. . seems to conceive , that the pointing being altered , the words might be read thus ; he was not that light , but that he might bear witnesse of the light he was , ( referring 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ver . . to the end of ver . . ) the true light which inlightneth every man coming into the world , was in this world , and the world was made by him , and the world knew him not , ver . , . but the supplement of beza , [ this man ] or as our translators hath it , that was the true light , is better and more agreeable to johns phrase . but then there is another doubt , whether it should be read thus ; that was the true light coming into the world , which inlighteneth every man , by a trajection : or as ours read , as the words are placed , that was the true light , which inlighteneth every man which cometh into the world . grotius after cyril , augustin , and some others likes the former as best , because joh. . . and . . where he speaks of himself as light , he so expresseth himself as coming into the world as light , and so he would have the sense to be of his coming into the world , not by his birth , but appearing as a teacher ; as when it is said , joh. . . this is truly the prophet coming into the world . but . such trajection being without necessity , and so disordering the words , . the phrase in these , and john . . being as fitly interpreted of birth , as of appearing as a teacher , i rather choose the reading of our translators . but then there is some doubt about the meaning , what is the light with which , and how he inlightens every man coming into the world . two waies he may be said to inlighten , and accordingly two sorts of light may be meant , and two waies may the words be expounded . there is a natural light of reason and understanding , which every person coming into the world hath , though not all in the same measure in the exercise , by reason of the different temper and state of the body which the soul dwells in : and this light is conceived to be meant , ver . . where it is said , that the life of christ was the light of men , which expressing what was , when all things were made by him , and without him was nothing made that was made ; it can be well understood of no other light then natural reason by the creation of christ ; and to this sense , it seems to make that ver . . it follows after ver . . which inlightneth every man coming into the world , the world was made by him . and then the sense is this ; that or this person of whom john was to witnesse , was the true or excellent light , which or who inlighteth with natural reason and understanding , every man coming into the world by natural birth , as being made by him . this sense is followed by the most of protestant commentators i meet with , and seems to be genuine . the other sort of light is spiritual light expressed thus , cor. . . the inlightning of of the knowledge of the glory of god in the person or face of jesus christ. and this sort of light is from christs preaching and spirit , and is meane ver . . where it is said , the light shineth in darknesse , and the darknesse comprehended it not . and of this light christ is the cause , as the prophet of his church , luk. . . joh. . . & . , &c. and thus is christ said to inlighten every man ; that is , every man that is inlightened , hath his light from christ : as when it is said , psal. , . the lord upboldeth all that fall , that is , all fallen persons that are upheld : or he lighteth every man , that is , all sorts of men , as col. . . every man , is meant all sorts or nations of men . and these i confesse are good senses : yet methinks , the addition [ who cometh into the world ] doth intimate , that this inlightning is of every man that is born . . at his birth , and so is to be extended to every person of humane nature , and the natural light he hath at birth ; which i have chosen to handle , that i may clear the mistake of those who are termed quakers , who have this text almost perpetually in their speeches and writings , insomuch that in the catechism of g. f. that is , george fox , a prime leader of them , this text is almost in every answer to the questions there propounded , repeated : and it is the common speech of them , and almost all their preaching , look to the light within thee . my intent is , therefore to consider what that light is , which is in each person , and to shew that it is not sufficient to be a mans guide without the holy scripture , and therefore that erroneously they make it christ and direct men to follow it universally as their rule . to this end , i shall consider , . how christ is light . . how he is the true light . . how he lighteth . . how men come into the world . . how farre every man is inlightned that comes into the world with natural light . . how all spiritual light is derived from christ , and in what sense christ may be said to inlighten every man with it . sect. . christ is the light , the term light is explained . the first thing to be considered , is , that the word , that is jesus christ is light. thus he saith of himself , joh. . . that he was come a light into the world . and simeon said of him , luk. . . that he was a light for the lightning of the gentiles . to conceive of this point , two things will be to be explained ; . what is ascribed to christ by this appellation of light. . in respect of what nature he is thus termed . to resolve the former , it is to be considered that the term light is sometimes applied to lucid bodies , as the fire is termed the light , mark. . . where peter is to be warmed , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , at the light ; that is , the fire . and so candles are termed lights , act. . . as it's usual with us also in our common speech . and thus god is said to have made two great lights , gen. . . the sun and the moon . sometime for the quality of light , which is a visive quality , . in the lucid body chiefly , as the light of the sun , rev. . . . from it in the aire or middle body by which it is carried to the eye , as the light in the aire which shone round about paul , act. . . . in the eye by which the objects to be seen are discerned , in which respect the eye is termed the light of the body , luke . . now of all qualities there is none more amiable or desirable . eccl. . . truly the light is sweet , and a pleasant thing to behold the sun. by reason of whose beauty most nations , who knew not the true god , did imagin the sun to be god , and accordingly did adore it , and sacrifice to it , which job disclaimed , job . , , . if i beheld the sun when it shined , or the moon walking in brightnesse , and mine heart hath been secretly inticed , and my mouth hath kissed my hand , this also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge : for i should have denied the god that is above . by reason of its light , warmth and other influence , the sun is magnified by writers , as seeing , and hearing all things , as the common parent of all sublunary bodies ; insomuch that the peripatetick philosophy makes the sun with man , to generate man. the holy ghost foretelling the coming of the messiah , mal. . . terms him the sun of righteousnesse . and zacharias speaking of christ , luk. . , . saith , through the bowels of mercy of our god , in which the day-spring or sun-rising from on high hath visited us , to give light to them that sit in darknesse , and in the shadow of death . so that what excellency the sun hath in respect of its light , is to be conceived of christ in a spiritual way , but in a higher degree ; and whatever excellency the light signifies in the metaphor , is more truly verified of him then any angels of light , or children of light among men . sect. . christ is light as the prince of life . . by [ light ] is oft in scripture signified life : psal. . . for with thee is the fountain of life ; in thy light shall we see light . and even in this gospel saith christ , john . . i am the light of the world , he that followeth me , shall not walk in darknesse , but shall have the light of life . and john . . in him was life , and the life was the light of men . job . . . he will deliver his soul from going into the pit , and his life shall see the light . ver. . to bring back his soul from the pit , to be enlightened with the light of the living . psal. . . the soul shall go to the generation of his fathers , they shall never see light . psal. . . lighten mine eyes , lest i sleep the sleep of death . hence to sit in darknesse and in the shadow of death , are conjoyned , mat. . . luk. . . in respect therefore of life in christ , and communicated by him , he is rightly termed the light now that he hath life in himself at his disposal , is affirmed by him , joh. . . as the father raiseth the dead and quickneth , so also the son quickneth whom he will. ver. . for as the father hath life in himself , so hath he also given to the son to have life in himself . joh. . jesus saith to him , i am the way , and the truth , and the life : no man cometh to the father but by me . joh. . . jesus saith unto her , i am the resurection and the life . joh. . . and this is the record that god hath given to us eternal life , and this life is in his son : who is termed the word of life , joh. . . that eternal life which was with the father , and was manifest unto us . ver. . the prince or author of life , act . . the last adam was made a quickning spirit , cor. . . which being spoken of the resurrection of the body , it appears that he is the light in respect of natural life , as well as spiritual , at the first creation , as well as at the future resurrection . as it is certain that some sort of living creatures are produced by the sun , so it is certain that the son of god is the prince of life , who hath life in himself , and imparts it to other living beings ; and in this respect is justly termed the light. sect. . christ is light as the lord of glory . . by light is oft meant glory and majesty . there is one glory of the sun , another of the moon , and another of the stars , for one star differeth from another in glory , that is light , cor. . . the light which made the face of moses shine , exod. . . is termed cor . . the glory of his countenance , and the shining of christ at his transfiguration , mat. . . is termed glory , pet . . and thus christ is light , that is full of glory and majesty , the lord of glory , cor. . . even on earth john saith , chap. . . and we beheld his glory , the glory as of the only begotten of the father . and doubtless however in christs outward shape there appeared no more then ordinary , or rather less then ordinary splendour ; yet in his preaching there was such glory as made the people astonished , for he taught them as one having authority , mar. . . in his miracles there was glory , so as that vers. . they were all amazed , insomuch that they questioned among themselves , saying , what thing is this ? what new doctrine is this ? for with authority he commandeth the unclean spirits , and they do obey him . and joh. . . this beginning of miracles did jesus in cana of gaiilee , and manifested forth his glory , and his disciples believed on him , and vers. . when he made a scourge of small cords , he drove out the sellers of oxen , sheep , and doves , and changers of mony , all out of the temple , and overthrew their tables , and powred out their money ; and when officers were sent to apprehend him , they returned answer , joh. . . never man spake like this man. he commanded lazarus to come forth out of the grave , and he came forth , joh. . , . he rebuked the winds and the sea , and there was a great calm , mat. . . these and many more things which appeared in him and were done by him , manifested that he was indeed light , that is a person of splendour , glory , and majesty , notwithstanding his emptying himself in the forme of a servant phil. . . sect. . christ is light , as cause of peace and joy . . by light is oft meant peace , isa. . . i form the light and create darkness , is expressed in the next words , i make peace and create evil , jer. . . while ye look for light , that is peace . in like manner light is put for joy , as psal. . . light is sown for the righteous , and gladness for the upright in heart , prov. . . the light of the eyes rejoyceth the heart , isa. . . the lord shall be thine everlasting light , and the dayes of thy mourning shall be ended . darkness takes away mirth , but the appearing of the day brings joy : the sun is that which chears all things by its light , and so doth christ dispell storms , makes peace , and begets joy . whence he is stiled the prince of peace , isa. . . our peace , eph. . . peace i leave with you , saith christ , my peace give i unto you , not as the world giveth give i unto you : let not your heart be troubled , neither let it be afraid , joh. . . these things have i spoken unto you , that in me ye might have peace , in the world ye shall have tribulation : but be of good chear , i have overcome the world , joh. . . that which we have seen and heard , declare we unto you , that ye also may have fellowship with us ; and truly our fellowship is with the father , and with his son jesus christ. and these things write we unto you , that your joy may be full , joh. . , . as from the sun all the light , serenity , and sweetness of the air , whereby the spirits of men are refreshed , the members warmed , the whole body cheared , is derived ; so from christ are all the pleasant apprehensions of peace with god , all the joyfull tast of his favour , all the quickening hopes of heaven , which a christian soul partakes of . sect. . christ is light in respect of his purity and wisdome . . by light is meant holiness , purity , or clearness : nothing more free from defilement then light ; all the jakes and dunghills and filthy lakes in the world cannot pollute the light of the sun , and therefore it is fit to resemble holiness . and accordingly god is said to be light , joh. . . that is pure , as it is said , chap . . and thus the lord christ is light , being annointed with the oil of gladness above his fellows , as loving righteousness and hating iniquity , psal. . . heb. . . he did no sin , neither was guile found in his mouth , pet. . . he could challenge his most prying adversaries , joh. . . which of you convinceth me of sin ? . by light is meant wisdome : light is a discovering quality , eph. . . all things that are discovered are made manifest by the light : for whatsoever doth make manifest is light . light pierceth through the most narrow chinks into the lowest holes : and so doth wisdome find out the most hidden things through small hints . daniel is said to have light , and understanding , and wisdome found in him , in that he was able to interpret dreams , and shew hard sentences , and dissolve doubts , dan. . , . but beyond all , the lord christ was light : the spirit of the lord did rest upon him , the spirit of wisdome and understanding , the spirit of counsel and might , the spirit of knowledge , and of the fear of the lord , isa. . . in him are hid all the treasures of wisdome and knowledge , col. . . no man knoweth the son but the father , neither knoweth any man the father save the son , and he to whom the son will reveal him , mat. . . jesus knew all men , neither needed he that any should testifie of man , for he knew what was in man , joh. . , . he knew the thoughts of the seribes , mat. . . he knew judas would betray him , afore judas had conceived the treason , joh. . , . he opened the secret counsels of god , foretold the future troubles of the jews , persecutions of his disciples , his own death and resurrection , the preaching of the gospel , and gathering of his church over the world , which are accomplished , and the resurrection of the dead at his return to the final judgement , which will be undoubtedly brought to pass in the day of the lord : so that of him it is true which we read , dan. . . he revealeth the deep and secret things , he knoweth what is in the darkness , and the light dwelleth with him . sect. . christ is light in respect of truth and grace . . by light is meant truth , isa. . . to the law and to the testimony : if they speak not according to this word , it is because there is no light in them : that is no truth in them , or no comfort to them , say others . he that doth the truth , saith christ. cometh to the light , joh. . . light and truth are either the same , or very like , and helpfull to each other , psal. . . oh send out thy light and thy truth . now light well agrees to christ under this notion , sith he is the way , the truth , and the life , joh. . . all his words were words of truth , his gospel the gospel of truth , jam. . . col. . . if ye continue in my word , saith christ , joh. . , . then are ye my disciples indeed . and ye shall knew the truth , and the truth shall make you free . . by light , favour , and grace , and goodness , and love are meant , numb . . . job . psal. . . prov. . . in the light of the kings countenance is life , and his favour is as a cloud of the latter rain . lightsomeness in the face , is a sign of goodness and love in the heart ; as on the other side , a lowring grim visage is a sign of a tyrannical and imperious spirit . light is the most diffusive and communicative of all qualities , and so fitly resembles grace and love . and so it is said of christ , psal. . . thou art fairer then the children of men : grace is powred into thy lips , therefore god hath blessed thee for ever , cant. . . his mouth is most sweet ; yea he is altogether lovely , pet. . . if ye have tasted how gracious the lord is , luk. . . the spirit of the lord is upon me , because he hath aneinted me to preach the gospel to the poor , he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted , to preach deliverance to the captives , and recovering of fight to the blind , to set at liberty them that are braised , to preach the acceptable year of the lord. and the eyes of all them that were in the synagegue , were fastened on him : and he began to say unto them , this day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears : and all bare him witness , and wondred at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth , vers. . all his words , looks , deeds ( except when he had to do with proud hypocrites , and incurably wicked persons ) did evidence a dove-like spirit , harmeless , compassionate , kinde , patient , full of love and goodness . he went about like the sun doing good , and healing all that were oppressed of the devil , act. . . and therefore in this respect is to be termed the light by excellency . the word dwelt among us full of grace and truth . of his fulness we have all received grace for grace . grace and truth came by jesus christ , john . . , . . this attribute of light is given to christ , both in respect of his divine nature , in respect of which it is said , joh. . . in him was life , and the life was the light of men , and in respect of his humane , concerning which it is said , joh. . . as long as i am in the world , i am the light of the world : which i shall shew when i speak of his enlightening . sect. . the application in a double use to see the estate of men without christ , and to draw our eyes to him . for present we may hence infer , . that they who are unacquainted with christ , are in darkness : ye were once darkness saith the apostle , eph. . . minding them of their estate antecedent to their being in christ. a man without christ preached and believed , is like a person in darkness . . he is in respect of his estate as a man in the dark , in that he cannot discern his own condition , how unclean he is , what danger is near him , what way to avoid it , what help to use . he that is out of christ , and sees not by his light , discerns not the filth of sin , nor the keeneness of gods anger , nor how to remove the one , or to asswage the other . . a man without the light of christ , doth neither know god truly , nor his precepts or counsel , and so knows not how to address himself to god. nor how to observe gods eye on him , nor what gifts he tenders to him , nor what directions he gives him . . a man without christ his light , is like the syrians , who were led to samaria when they imagined they were in dothan . it 's easie for satan or any deceiver to lead them hell-ward , when they pretend to direct them heaven-ward : any cheat , any errour or delusion may be put on him , that wants christ to be his light . . he that wants light from christ , is as he that walks in the dark , one while he stumbles here , another time he wanders there : if he be in the way , yet it is more then he knows , and therefore is uncertain whether it be best to go forward , or backward , or stand still . how full of uncertainty have been the most witty philosophers , the most skillfull rabbins , the most acute papists in their way , following their own reason , or tradition of men ! how miserably do they stumble and fall , and hurt their souls ! how sadly do they wander out of the way , when they think they are in it ! . want of light from christ , leaves men in fears and perplexities what shall befall them . the light of christ secures the soul , assures its happiness ; but he that knows not the way of christ , nor whereto it tends , is afraid of death and judgement to come , is doubtfull whether he have any interest in god , fears the mention of hell , of the devil , of the coming of christ , turnes quaker at the sight of an armed man , whines like adrian the emperour , when his soul was departing . . a man without the light of christ , can do no spiritual work as he should . as he that is in the dark , can neither thresh corn , nor make his clothes , nor plow , nor sowe , nor do other necessary usefull works : so it is with him that 's not enlightened by christ ; he can neither pray , nor praise god , nor do any other holy work , or manage any business that pertains to gods glory , and christs kingdome . a dark dungeon is a miserable place to live in , and no less , or rather a thousand times more miserable is it , to be excluded from the light of christ. . if christ be light , then should our eyes be towards him . light is attractive of our eyes : it is a pleasant thing to behold the sun , it is that which infidels adore as god. should not we magnifie the lord jesus as the sun of righteousnesse ? should not our eyes and our hearts be drawn after him ? sould not our souls adore him ? he is the son of his fathers love , col. . . and should he not be of ours ? the church , the spouse of christ saith , he is all desires , cant. . . and so doth every soul that knows him . he is the highest born prince , of great majesty , of most noble disposition , of most loving nature , of incomprehensible beauty , of superlative power , of largest empire , of most ample riches ; there 's not the thing to be named which is desirablé , which is not christs . oh then , that we could fall in love with christ , long after him , remember him with delight , hearken after all the tokens of his appearing , inquire into his walking places ! shall people travell far , throng much , be at much cost to see a gracious queen ? shall besotted papists , take a long and dangerous pilgrimage , to see christs pretended vicar , though sometimes a most horrible monster , more like the devil then christ , and shall not our hearts travell after christ , and converse with him ? sure no excuse will be taken , sith there can be no reason alledged for it , for those that dote on men and women , and gold , and pearles , and yet forget christ ; are inamoured on pictures , and neglect the living beauty of heaven , the lord of glory . be wise therefore , o ye princes and people of the world , kiss the son , worship , love , rejoyce in , wait on , follow the image of the invisible god , the heir of all things , in comparison of whom , let all sublunary beauties be as dirt , and all the precious things of the earth be as dung to you . christ the true light. serm. ii. joh. . . that was the true light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world . sect. . christ no counterfeit light. how jesus christ is light , hath been shewed , how he is the true light , is next to be cleared . it is said of him , whose name is called the word of god , revel . . . that he was called faithfull and true , ver . . and in reference to him , it is said , joh. . . the true light now shineth . now christ is said to be the true light , . in respect of his being , which is usually termed metaphysick truth . . in respect of his sayings , which is logick or moral truth . in the first sort of truth christ is said to be the true light , . to distinguish him from those which were counterfeits and feigned lights : for true is opposed to that which is only in pretence , but not really such . our lord christ saith , joh. . . all that ever came before me are thieves and robbers ; that is , were not true lights , meaning this not simply of all , not of moses , of whom it is said , isa. . . then he remembred the daies of old , moses and his people , saying , where is he that brought them up out of the sea , with the shepherd of his flock ? nor of david , of whom it is said , psal. . . that he fed israel according to he integrity of his heart : but of such as the prophet zechariah ch . . . saith , we to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock . such as were the false prophets among the jews , the scribes and pharisees , and lawyers , in and asore christs time , who instead of being sent by god , came of themselves , ran and he sent them not , yet pretended a mission from god. in like sort paul saith , cor. . , , . for such are salse apostles , deceitfull workers , transforming themselves into the apostles of christ. and no marvell : for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light , therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousnesse . but the lord christ came from the father , john . . was sent by him , joh. . . he spake not of himself , but the father which sent him , gave him commandement what he should say and what he should speak : whatsoever he spake therefore , even as the father said unto him so he spake , joh. . , . so that he was not a light by usurpation , imposture , disguise or transformation , but by a true commission as sealed by his father , joh. . . sanctified and sent into the world , joh. . . sect. . christ more then a typical light. . christ is the true light in contradistinction to those , which were only types or shadows , representing christ to come . the word [ true ] is used in this sense , heb. . . a minister of the true tabernacle ; that is , not only of that shadowy tabernacle , which was only a parable or figure for the time present , as the expression is , heb. . . but the reall tabernacle , for an image of which that tabernacle was made . again heb. . . it is said , christ is not entered into the holyes made by hand , which were figures or antityps of the true , but into heaven it self , where the holy place of the tabernacle is made the antitype and representative , and heaven the true holy place . in like manner there were lights in the tabernacle , there were lamps and lights of pure oyl burning in the tabernacle , there was fire at the altar , which at first came down from heaven , and these were shadows of things to come , but the body is of christ , col. . . and in this sense also truth came by jesus christ , joh. . . there is mention of seven lamps of fire burning before the throne , which are the seven spirits of god , rev. . . but this hinders not , but that christ might be shadowed by the lamps in the tabernacle , and the fire on the altar , sith that which was signified by them , the inlightning the people of god , who are the holy priesthood of god , and the making ready the sacrifice that it might be accepted with god , was most truly verified of jesus christ , through whom we now worship the father in spirit and truth , joh. . , . and our spiritual sacrifices are acceptable to god , pet. . . sect. . other lights are no lights in comparison of christ. . christ is the true light comparatively , as being the chief light , in comparison of whom other lights are not to be so termed . 't is true , john baptist is said to be a burning and a shining light , joh. . . and the word of the prophets is termed a light shining in a dark place , pet. . . and christ saith of his apostles , mat. . . they were the light of the world . yet they were as no lights in comparison of christ , who was in the bosome of the father , and hath declared him , joh . . as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , one that himself saw him , and who received not the spirit by measure , and therefore spake the words of god above others , joh. . . as in like manner we are lights , who now preach the gospel , yet comparatively to the apostles , who could say , that which was from the beginning , which we have heard , which we have seen with our eyes , and our hands have felt of the words of life we declare unto you , joh. . , . we are but dark . the law was a light , and the commandement was a lamp , prov. . . thy word is a lamp unto my feet , and a light unto my path , saith the psalmist , psal. . . yet in comparison of the gospel of glory of christ , who is the image of god , cor. . . it is scarce to be termed light , but as the star-light is as no light when the sun is risen , so even that which was made glorious , to wit , the giving of the law , had no glory in this respect by reason of the glory that excelleth , cor. . . that is , in comparison of the gospel , which is as the day-star , and sun-rising , pet. . . sect. . christ the original light. . christ is the true light , as being the original light , from whom other delegated lights , which are set up in christs stead , as it is cor. . . do borrow their light . it is true , the father of our lord christ , is termed the father of lights , jam. . . and christ is light of light , light from the father of lights , yet all is so fully invested in christ , that he could say , joh. . . all things that the father hath are mine . and therefore he saith even of the holy spirit himself , whom he calls the spirit of truth , that he shall not speak of himself : but whatsoever he shall hear , that shall he speak , ver. . and he shall glorifie me ; for he shall receive of mine , and shall shew it unto you , ver. . and when the prophets testified before-hand the sufferings of christ , and the glory that should follow , it was the spirit of christ which was in them , that did signifie them , pet. . . and in like sort , when the apostles , by their preaching , were lights of the world , yet they received from christ that which they declared , joh. . , . and those believers who were brought to the knowledge of christ among the corinthians , cor. . . are said to be the epistle of christ ministred by the apostles . so that as the light of the sun is the true light , because it is the fountain of light , the moon and other stars borrowing their light from it : in like manner christ is the true light , as being he from whom the prophets , apostles , and holy teachers derive their light , which they impart to the world . sect. . christ the perfect light. . christ is the true light , that is , the most perfect light . [ true ] is taken for that which is perfect , which attains the end , to which nothing is wanting requisite to the use of riches , luk. . . opposite to the mammon of unrighteousnesse , which is defective , not sufficient to make a man happy . now christ is the true or perfect light , . because he is the highest light , the rising-sun , or day-spring from on high , or the height , to wit , of heaven , luk. . . a light placed on high , and that riseth from heaven , is a greater light then a beacon fired ; and a beacon on a hill fired , then a bonfire in a low valley . the original of christ being a light , which came from god , that was from above , joh. . . makes him the more conspicuous and greater light . . the light which is universal , is a more perfect light then that which is a light to one part onely , as the sun is the most perfect light , because his going forth is from the end of the heaven , and his circuit to the end of it : and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof , psal. . . now christ is the light of the world , joh. . . not only the glory of the people of israel , but also a light to lighten the gentiles , luk. . . acts . . . that is the most perfect light , which is without any mixture of darknesse . mow christ is light , and in him is no darknesse at all . lord , said peter , ioh. . . thou knowest all things . surely there was no errour in chrlst , which might darken his understanding ; or nescience , which might disable him from inlightning those , that sit in darknesse , and guiding their feet into the way of peace , luk. . . which is the chief use of the heavenly light of christ. . he is a perpetual light . john was a light for a season , ioh. . . he was to decrease in his lustre and use , when christ was to increase , ioh. . . the prophets and apostles were lights in their time , but they had on earth their eclipses , the prophets could not alwaies declare the mind of god. nathan , sam. . . bid david do all that was in his heart , and yet ver . . that night he had a countermand . elisha said , kings . . of the shunamite , her soul is vexed within her , and the lord hath hid it from me , and hath not told me . prophetick light was not , as the schoolmen said truly , in them , in manner of a habit , which might dispose them to reveal the mind of god at any time , but holy men of god spake as they were carried or moved by the holy ghost , pet. . . and the apostles did not alwaies speak by the spirit , peter was to be blamed when he compelled the gentiles to live as do the jews , gal. . , . to him whom christ said , mat. . . thou art peter , and upon this rock i will build my church , he after said , ver . . get thee behind me satan , thou art an offence unto me : for thou savourest not the things that be of god , but those that be of men . but it was otherwise with christ , his knowledge was habitual , alwaies ready in every thing he was to speak to , never deficient , he needed not that any should testifie of man , ioh. . . he spake what he had seen and heard , ioh. . . we speak that we do know , and testifie that we have seen , ver . . he whom god hath sent , speaketh the words of god : for god giveth not the spirit by measure unto him , ver . . the prophets and the apostles were lights in their time : but their light is set , i mean their personal preaching ceaseth . zech. . . your fathers where are they ? and the prophets , do they live for ever ? pet. . . knowing that shortly i must put off this my tabernacle , even as our lord jesus christ hath shewed me . but of christ it is said , rom. . , . knowing that christ being raised from the dead dieth no more , death hath no more dominion over him . for in that he died , he died unto sin once : but in that he liveth , he liveth unto god , eph. . . when he ascended up on high , he led captivity captive , and gave gifts unto men , ver . . he that descended , is the same also that ascended farre above all heavens , that he might fill all things , to wit , with his light ; as it follows , ver . , , . and he gave some , apostles : and some , prophets : and some , evangelists : and some pastours and teachers ; for the perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministry , for the edifying of the body of christ , till we all come in the unity of the faith , and of the knowledge of the son of god , unto a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of christ. so that christ is now not only a permanent light , but also more eminent , shining as he did on the earth to the iews , so more gloriously , since his ascension , to the gentiles . and though the man of sin hath much obscured the light of christ ; and the mystery of iniquity that began to work in pauls time hath prevailed , after the working of satan with all power , and signs , and lying wonders , yet shall that wicked one be revealed , whom the lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth , and shall destroy with the brightnesse of his coming , thes. . , , . and then shall christ shine more gloriously in his day , and with him the righteous shall shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father , matth. . . and then shall the lord be to them an everlasting light , and their god their glory , isa. . . sect. . christ the effectual inlightning light. christ is the true light , that is , the effectual light , which doth indeed that which light is to do . as he is termed the true bread which was from heaven , ioh. . . because he giveth life to the world , ver . . he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever , ver . . and as he is termed the true vine , ioh. . . because he yeilds fruit as a vine , so is he termed the true light , because he doth inlighten effectually . john . . i am the light of the world , saith christ : be that followeth me , shall not walk in darknesse , but shall have the light of life . ioh. . . i am come a light into the world , that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darknesse . there are lights , that like ignis fatuus , foolish fire , lead men into dark places , lakes and bogs , whereinto they that follow them perish : there are lights that for a while lead men in the way , and then soon go out , and so leave men in darknesse and perplexity . but the lord christ leads alwaies in the right way , even in the way of life ; neither is he ever extinguished , but so shines , as that whosoever follows him , shall be directed aright in his way , be guided into the way of peace , luk. . . with thee , saith the psalmist , psal. . . is the fountain of life : in thy light shall we see light . there is an amazing light , that by its brightnesse , doth as it were strike dead , and cast down to the earth , revel . . , . when christ appeared to john in his glory , and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength , upon the sight of him john fell at his feet as dead . when saul journied to damascus , about noon suddainly there-shine from heaven a great light round about him , so that he could not see for the glory of the light , but was blind for some daies , acts . . . acts . . the lord christ is an excelling light , yet not striking dead , nor casting down , nor blinding , but rather an erecting light , a clearing light , a directing light , an enlivening , and inlightning light ; which would lead me to the consideration of the way of christs inlightning , but that somewhat more is to be said of the truth of christ the light . sect. . christ was the true light in respect of the truth of his words . . christ is the true light , in respect of his sayings , he delivered that which was truth , which is logick truth , and the truth he spake according to his mind , which is moral truth . . he could freely say , john . . though i bear record of my self , yet my record is true : for i know whence i came , and whether i go . ver. . if i judge , my judgment is true : for i am not alone , but i and the father that sent me . ver. , . it is written in your law , that the testimony of two men is true : i am one that bear witnesse of my self , and the father that sent me beareth witnesse of me . ver. . he that sent me is true , and i speak to the world those things which i have heard of him . ver. . when ye have lift up the son of man , then shall ye know that i am he , and that i do nothing of my self : but as my father hath taught me , i speak these things . ver. , . if ye continue in my word , then are ye my disciples indeed , and ye shall know the truth , and the truth shall make you free . ver. . but now ye seek to kill me , a man that hath told you the truth , which i have heard of god. ver. . which of you convinceth me of sin ? and if i say the truth , why do ye not believe me ? joh. . . the works that i do in my fathers name , bear witnesse of me . ver. , . if i do not the works of my father , believe me not . but if i do , though ye believe not me , believe the works : that ye may know and believe , that the father is in me , and i in him . joh. . . the words that i speak unto you , i speak not of my self : but the father that dwelleth in me , he doeth the works . in which speeches , our lord christ avers the truth of the light , that is doctrine or words he taught , in that they were received from god , and witnessed by him , which was proved , . by the works which christ did ; which were invincibly proved to be of god , by the greatnesse , frequency , freenesse , and goodnesse of them , being in opposition to satan , and with such evidence of all freedom from imposture and acquaintance with satan , that even those who followed not christ , did in his name cast out devils , luk. . , . and by this he refuted , luk. . . the pharisees , who imputed his casting out devils , to an assistance of the prince of the devils . . by the concomitants and consequents of his lifting up , which was his death on the crosse , joh. . , . for , . the prediction of it , with the fulfilling thereof , shewed he spake from god , whose property it is to foretell future contingents as certain . . the things themselves proved him to come from god. . the wonderfull accidents that hapned at his death , mat. . . the renting of the vcil of the temple , and of the rocks , and the quaking of the earth , and opening of the graves , made the centurion and his souldiers say , truly this was the son of god. . his resurrection , not withstanding all the obstruction used by pilate and the jews , with the rising of many bodies of the saints which slept , and appeared to many in jerusalem , manifest by the many and undoubted signs thereof to many persons many times proves his descent from god. . the giving of the spirit on the great day of pentecost , in the sight of proselytes from all countries , which was also done by apostles in other places , together with many miracles in his name , proved that he taught the truth he received from the father . . the dispossessing of satan of his empire in the worship of idols , and the giving of oracles as from them , and the drawing of the gentiles to him , as he foretold , joh. . , . in which was part of the great mystery of godlinesse , tim. . which we at this day see accomplished , together with many other prophecies of the destruction of jerusalem , its treading down of the gentiles , the preaching of the gospel over all the world , the calamities of the jews , the persecution of the christians , with other things , matth. . luk. . and elsewhere , abundantly demonstrate that he was the true light which came down from heaven , in respect of the doctrine he taught , and words he spake . his words also appear to be the true light , from the matter of them , and the ends whereunto they tend , and the effects of them . for , . the matter of them is pure like god , containing holy precepts , not amorous poems , or sophistical quirks of wit , or curious devices of art , or cunning maxims of state policy , or glorious atchievements of war , or any thing that tends to exalt man , but such precepts and revelations as make man spiritual , heavenly , wise , like unto god. there is nothing vain and fabulous , like to the frothy wit of men , nor deceitfull , like to the wily old serpent , but solid and weighty , concerning peace with god , conversion unto him , denying our selves , taking up our crosse , following of christ in patience contentednesse , meeknesse , humility , and such like things , as shew faith in god , and hope of a reward in heaven ; all plain without flattery of men to induce them to follow him in hopes of earthly preferment , and worldly wealth , or pleasure , or praise of men , but the clean contrary : yet are they such things as , when declared , appear so necessary for sinners , so full of goodnesse , and congruity to prophetical predictions , that the conscience of men not listed up with pharisaical concei's of self-righteousnesse , nor obstinately addicted to their own lusts , will assent to and embrace them . . the ends of them , and the effects , are the salvation of man , and the glory of god. all that christ spake , it was to comfort the humble and afflicted soul , luk. . . to ease the burthened , matth. . . to direct them to god , to reform the evils in gods worship , to take men off from covetousnesse , hypocrisie , and such evils as are pernicious , to believe in god , to love each other , to lay up our treasure in heaven , not to be excessively carefull for the things of this life , with whatever else might bring men nigh to god , and alienate them from this present evil world . and accordingly so were and are the effects , regeneration or new birth , rejoycing in god , mortification of the deeds of the body , comfort in tribulation , a life of faith , love to the brethren in christ , and everlasting consolation , and good hope through grace . all which , with inumerable other characters and symptomes of christs doctrine and testimony , do shew that he was the true light , and that what he spake to pilate , joh. . . was right , to this end was i born , and for this cause came i into the world , that i should bear witnesse unto the truth : every one that is of the truth heareth my voice . lastly , that in respect of his sincerity or moral truth he was the true light , it is manifest in that as he said to the jews , he sought not his own will , but the will of the father which sent him , joh . . that he sought not his own glory , joh. . . which appears in that he sometimes forbad the spreading of his fame , withdrew himself when they would have made him king , joh. . . was content to be deprived of ordinary conveniencies , luk. . . in a word , made himself of no reputation , or emptied himself , and took upon him the form of a servant , and was made in the likenesse of men , and being in fashion as a man , he humbled himself , and became obedient unto death , even to the death of the crosse , phil. . , . that he might give testimony to the truth . sect. . application by way of vindication of our selves from the accusation of quakers , as if we denied the light , john . . and warning to shun false lights . from that which hath been said , . it may appear , that those who go under the name of quakers , do unjustly accuse publique preachers , as if they did deny the true light , which inlighteneth every man that cometh into the world ; that they deny christ the light : for so in their speeches and books they do frequently charge them . none that i have seen , is more profuse and frequent in these charges then g. f. that is , george fox , in his catechism , who saith , p. toat neither the jews nor christians , do believe in the light , which doth inlighten every man that cometh into the world , though they professe some of christs and the apostles words , which the jews do not . p. . he saith , teachers by the will of man ( meaning publique preachers in england ) and professors say , that christ doth not inlighten every one that cometh into the world , and they deny christ. p. . that none can confesse christ , but who confesse the light which every man is inlightened withall . but frequently in the same paper , he terms such as acknowledge not the light , which he imagins every one hath , antichrists , deceivers , not teachers of christ , but deniers of him , p. . but this crimination is but the raving of men , that are used to make clamours and outcries without any proof . though the text plainly enough distinguisheth the light inlightening , and the light in every man , from that true light inlightning , yet they do not , or will not understand this difference , but confound the light inlightning ( which is indeed christ ) with the light within each man , which they term christ , and therefore make them that deny the light within , to be deniers of christ ; as if a man must deny the sun to be light , who doth deny the light to be in blind bartimaeus his eyes and yet we do not deny the light which is in every man that cometh into the world , only we deny the sufficiency of it self , without scripture , preaching , and learning , to bring us to god , and to direct us in his worship , and to make known christ to us , and the way of reconciliation and salvation by him . again , because we call the scriptures a light , and the preachers lights , therefore they exclaim against us as if we denied christ the light , and the light within . whereas there is no repugnancy between these : christ is the chiefest and highest light , and yet the law of god , the scriptures , the apostles are lights of the world . would any man in his wits reason thus ? the sun is the great light in the heavens , and the sun inlightens the eyes , therefore he that calls the moon a light , or a torch or candle a light , denies the sun to be the light that inlightens all the world , and the light that is in mens eyes . sure these men , while they thus , i cannot say argue , but clamour , give occasion to sober men , to question whether they be not of those that come into world without light , that have no light in them , sith they cannot discern the want of reason in these sottish speeches , more suitable to idiots and children , then to men of ripe age . but i rather choose to pray god to give them light , then to upbraid them with their darknesse : and to acquit our selves from their charge , rather then discover their folly . . however it is necessary , that we be all warned to avoid false lights , and to make use of christ the true light . there is much affectation and pretence of new light in these our daies . nor is it to be denied , but that , through the blessing of god , much light , either new or newly appearing , hath shined forth : sundry points in divinity , sundry texts of holy scripture , have been lately more cleared then they were in former daies . neverthelesse , it is to be heeded , that under pretence of new light , many vain fancies are vented and received , and that satan hath prevailed with many to put darknesse for light , and light for darknesse . of these none have more manifestly denied christ , then those that make a christ within them the true light ; and while they except against the light of the scriptures , and the word preached , under pretence of christ being the word , they put darknesse for light , in that they make the natural light in each man , which is but darknesse in spirituals , as if it were to be heeded as mens rule in all sorts of duties , and knowledge of the things of god. doubtlesse such men do really deny christ , who deny the words of christ to be their rule : he that rejecteth ms , and receiveth not my words , hath one that judgeth him , saith christ , john . . and where to find christs words if not in scripture i know not , which while men leave , and deny to be the gospel , but direct men to the light within them , and call that the gospel , they do plainly reject christ the light , and follow the false light of mens vain imaginations ; nor can it be expected but that they should walk in darkness , and stumble and fall to their destruction . be perswaded therefore as you desire your safety , to make use of christ the true light indeed , not in that sense in which fanaticks call christ the light in them , which is not the true christ or true light ( who is in heaven , but shines forth in the scriptures , and the explaining and preaching the doctrine which is contained in them ) but a meer phantasme or foolish fire , which serves not to guide but to delude men . the same is to be said of them that follow ecclesiastick traditions unwritten , popes determinations , prelates , and councils canons , fathers sayings , as their light : concerning all whom it is true , that there is no light in them , that they are not derived from christ the true light , except they agree with the words of christ in the holy scripture , whereby the true light doth enlighten , as is to be shewed in the next point to whch i proceed . christ the enligtening light. serm. iii. joh. . . that was the true light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world . sect. . christ enlightens all things with their natural light , as creatour . the next point is , that christ jesus is the enlightening light . the day-spring from on high saith zacharias , luk. . . hath visited us , to give light to them that sit in darkness , and the shadow of death , luk. . . simeon terms him a light to lighten the gentiles . for explication of which , it will be requisite that i shew , . with what light christ doth enlighten . . whence it is . . by what meanes he doth enlighten . . why he doth enlighten . . the light with which christ doth enlighten is manifold : . there is a bodily light in inanimate bodies , such as are the sun , and moon , and stars , of which moses saith , gen. . . and god made two great lights , the greater light to rule the day , and the lesser light to rule the night ; he made the stars also : and god set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth , and to rule over the day and over the night , and to divide the light from the darkness . and it is said , psal. . . by the word of the lord were the heavens made , and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth . . there is a natural light of creatures , which have sight to discern what is convenient for them , and accordingly do move towards that which agrees with their nature , or remove from that which they discern inconvenient to them . of the light or life of these beings , it is to be conceived that the word which was in the beginning with god , was the cause , according to that of the evangelist , joh. . . all things were made by him , and without him was not any thing made that was made . . there is a rational light of men , whereby they are able to judge of what in duty they do or omit , and have a conscience or privity to their own actions as either right or wrong . and of this also christ is the efficient , as the words following joh. . . import , in him was life , and the life was the light of men . all these sorts of light the word enlightens with , as creatour ; it being said of him , that by him were all things created that are in heaven , and that are in earth , visible and invisible , whether they be thrones or dominions , or principalities or powers , all things were created by him and for him . and he is before all things , and by him all things consist , col. . , . and to like purpose it is said , heb. . , . by whom also he made the worlds , and upholding all things by the word of his power . sect. . christ enlightens the world with the knowledge of god , as the prophet of the church . there are other sorts of light which are from christ , as his fathers officer sent into the world , and anointed for the recovery of man sallen by sinne . . there is the light of the knowledge of the glory of god , which is by the enlightening that is in the face or person of jesus christ , as paul expresseth it , cor. . . whereby it is that we see as through a glass the glory of the lord with unveiled face , cor. . . not as it was with israel , when they could not look on moses without a veil over his face , as it is ver . . . till christ appeared in the flesh , the gentiles were darkness . paul saith of the galatians , gal. . . howbeit then when ye knew not god , ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. of the ephesians , ye were once darkness , but now are ye light in the lord , eph. . . of the corinthians , ye know that ye were gentiles carried away unto these dumb idols , as ye were led , cor. . . the jews also had their mindes blinded , the vail remained untaken away in the reading of the old testament , which vail is done away in christ , cor. . . the being of the true god was so little known to the gentiles , till christ appeared to be a light to the gentiles , that they were not only without god in the world , eph. . . insomuch that the athenians themselves , sensible of their ignorance of him , inscribed their altar thus , to the unknown god , act. . . confessing god was unknown of them : but they were also so vain in their imaginations , that they imagined those things to be gods which were no gods , but creatures made to serve them , being imparted unto all nations under the whole heaven by god , deut. . . yea and under divers resemblances , the meaner sort of living creatures , rom. . . and dead men , and devils , cor. . . and for the jews , they understood not the counsel of god in giving of the law , and the appointing sacrifices and ceremonies ; till by the light of christ the end of these things was revealed . but the only begotten son which is in the besome of the father , he hath declared god , ioh. . . revealing his true being , and thereby undeceiving the gentiles , and his counsels in the giving of the law , and appointing the legal worship , and thereby hath enlightened the jews . and this enlightening is proper to him who tells us , mat. . . all things are delivered unto me of my father , and no man knoweth the son but the father , neither knoweth any man the father but the son , and he to whomsoever the son will reveal him . this light is derived from christ as the great prophet of the church of god. sect. . christ as high priest enlightens with the light of peace and joy in god . there is a light of peace with god , which is by christ , who is our peace , reconciling both jews and gentiles in one body by the cross , having slain the enmity thereby , ephes. . . , this is that peace which christ calls his peace , which he promiseth to his apostles , joh. . . where he saith , peace i leave with you , my peace i give unto you , not as the world giveth give i unto you , let not your heart be troubled , neither let it be afraid . and again , joh . . these things have i spoken unto you , that in me you might have peace , in the world ye shall have tribulation ; but be of good chear , i have overcome the world . so that this light of peace with god , begets the light of peace and joy in the hearts of those that are christs ; insomuch that being justified by faith , and having peace with god through our lord jesus christ , they rejoyce in the hope of the glory of god , and not only so , but they glory in tribulations also , rom. . , , . this peace of god which passeth all understanding , keeping as a guard their hearts and mindes through christ jesus , phil. . . hence it hath come to pass , that even when the wicked are driven away in their wickedness as with a storm , yet the righteous hath hope in his death , prov. . . as oecolampadius when his light failed him near his death , told them about him , that he had light enough within him . hereby the holy martyrs and confessors when the heavens were black over them , the rage , frowns , threats , tortures of tyrants , violently rushed upon them ; yet stood unmoved without being shaken by any terrour or grief from them . who shall separate us saith paul , rom. . , , , , from the love of christ ? shall tribulation , or distress , or persecution , or famine , or nakedness , or peril , or sword ? nay in all these things we are mare then conquerours through him that loved us . for i am perswaded , that neither death , nor life , nor angels , nor principalities , nor powers , nor things present , nor things to come , nor height , nor depth , nor any other creature , shall be able to separate us from the love of god which is in christ jesus our lord. this light is derived from christ , as the high priest of the people of god. sect. . christ as king of saints , enlightens with the light of glory . . there is yet a higher and more illustrious light from christ , to wit the light of glory , which is termed by the apostle paul , col. . . the inheritance of the saints in light , and by our lord christ , joh. . . the light of life , which is that eternal life , which is said to be the gift of god through jesus christ our lord , rom. . . this is that blessed light of the new jerusalem , which hath no need of the sun , neither of the moon to shine in it , for the glory of god doth lighten it , and the lamb is the light thereof , and the nation of them that are saved shall walk in the light of it , rev. . , . of this light the glorified saints shall be fully partakers at the resurrection , when the righteous shall shine forth as the sun in the kingdome of their father , mat. . . their vile body , or body of debasement , shall be changed by the lord jesus christ , that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body , phil. . . which is now more glorious then it was on the mount , mat. . . and yet then he was transfigured , and his face did shine as the sun , and his raiment was white as the light . and for their spirits , doubtless they shall then have farre greater light . now we see through a glass darkly , or in a riddle , but then face to face : now i know in part , but then shall i know even as also i am known , cor. . . they are before the throne of god , and serve him day and night in his temple , and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them , they shall hunger no more , nor thirst any more , neither shall the sun light on them , or any heat . for the lamb which is in the midst of the throne , shall feed them , and shall lead them unto living fountains of water , and god shall wipe away all tears from their eyes , rev. . , , . and there shall be no more death , neither sorrow , nor crying , neither shall there be any more pain , rev. . . no night , or gloomy day , but perpetual light and serenity , everlasting joy shall be upon their heads ; all clouds of fear , sorrow , ignorance , despair , disquietnesse shall fly away . and this light shall be from christ as the king of saints . sect. . christ inlightens by his natural power , as gods son , and by his special commission , as sent of god. . the natural light that all creatures have in their several kinds , is from that natural power which christ jesus hath as the son of god , by whom he made the worlds , who being the brightnesse of glory , and the characteo or expresse image of his person or substance , bears or upholds all things by the word of his power , heb. . , . to this purpose tends the speech of christ , joh. . . my father worketh hitherto and i work , from whence the jews gathered , that he termed god his own father , making himself equal with god , ver . . to which christ answers , ver . . verily , verily , i say to you , the son can do nothing of himself , but what he seeth the father do , for what things soever he doth , these also doth the son likewise . which shew that christ asserted a coworking with his father in all his works , and power answerable to it . the light of knowledge of god and his counsel , of peace , and joy , and comfort , of glory and everlasting blessednesse , the lord christ communicates , as by special commission delegated by his father , sealed , sanctified , and sent into the world , whereby he was made the light of the world , according to what he saith , joh. . . as long as i am in the world , i am the light of the world . and ver . . for judgment am i come into this world , that they which see not , might see , and that they which see , might be made blind . the administration of the affairs belonging to the kingdom of god , was committed to him for inlightening , governing , protecting , delivering , raising up from the dead , and advancing his church , subduing the devils , reproving and condemning opposers of his doctrine and work , judging all in his great day . all things , saith he , mat. . . are delivered unto me of my father , joh. . . for the father loveth the son , and sheweth him all things that himself doeth : and he will shew him greater works then these , that ye may marvell . for as the father raiseth up the dead , and quickneth them , even so the son quickneth whom he will. for the father judgeth no man : but hath committed all judgment unto the son , mat. . . all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth . by reason whereof , and his being made man to do this work , he is said to come down from heaven , not to do his own will , but the will of him that sent him , joh. . . and it is said by zacharias , luk. . . the day spring from on high hath visited us , to give light to them that sit in darknesse . sect. . christ inlightens by his preaching , example , spirit , apostles now in this time , by his power and glory in the world to come . . the inlightening with the later sorts of light , imparted by christ as sent into the world , is from him in this time now , or in the world to come . that inlightening which is now in thistime , is either by himself or his deputies , immediately , or by mediation of others . . christ in the daies of his flesh , or as it is expressed john . . as long as he was in the world , was the light of the world . . he was the light of the world by his preaching , wherein he was as the sun , still moving and inlightening all sorts , and in all places taking occasion to preach the gospel of the kingdom of god , to the poor and all sorts of people who resorted to him . after his temptation he went about all galilee teaching in their synagogues , and preaching the gospel of the kingdom , and healing all manner of sicknesse , and all manner of disease among the people , mat. . . when he preached in the house , there was such resort to him , that his mother and brethren could not come at him by reason of the presse , but stood without desiring to speak with him , but he preferred the work of reaching the people , before private conference with his mother , mat. . , , , . no sooner was he got out of the house , and come to the sea side , but great multitudes were gathered together unto him , so that he went into a ship and sate , and the whole multitude stood on the shore , and he taught them many things by parables , mat. . , , . after he had been in a desert a while , when he came out , seeing much people , was moved with compassion toward them , because they were as sheep not having a shepherd , and he began to teach them many things , mark. . . he was wont to go to the mount of olives to pray , luk. . . and early in the morning he came again into the temple , and all the people came unto him , and he sate down and taught them , joh. . . when he was in the way travelling , when he was at meales , he was still teaching his disciples , or those that were with him . he neglected eating , to prosecute the work of winning souls , and lightening them by his preaching . and this he counted his meat , as he told his disciples , joh. . my meat is to do the will of him that sent me , and to finish his work . by this means the people which sate in darknesse saw great light : and to them which sate in the region and shadow of death , light sprang up , mat. . . thus jesus christ hath abolished death , and brought immortality and life to light by the gospel , tim. . . . christ was a light also by his example . good example doth inlighten men , not only directing , but also provoking others to follow their steps . men as they are sociable , so they love to do as they see others do . hence it is that they live as much by examples as by precepts . wherefore saith christ , mat . . let your light so shine before men , that they may see your good works , and glorifie your father which is in heaven . now of all the examples that ever were , there was none more illustrious then christs : none so full of love , goodnesse , meeknesse , patience , humility , contentedesse , obedience , innocence , quietnesse , holy zeal , courage , diligence in his work , self-denial , heavenlynesse , faith , hope in god , and whatever else is amiable and imitable . he went about doing good , and healing all that were oppressed of the devil , act. . he did no sinne , neither was guile found in his mouth ; when he was reviled , he reviled not again ; when he suffered , he threatned not , but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously , per. . , . the real of gods house did eat him up , joh. . . it was his meat do do the will of him that sent him , and to finish his work , joh. . . he was the good shepherd , that laid down his life for his sheep , joh. . . having loved his own which were in the world , he loved them to the end , joh. . . though he were their lord and master , yet he washed his disciples feet , ver . . . though he was rich , yet for our sakes he became poor , that we through his poverty might be rich , cor. . . being in the form of god , he made himself of no reputation , but took upon him the form of a servant , and was made in the likenesse of men , and being found in fashion as a man , he humbled himself , and became obedient unto death , even the death of the crosse , phil. . , , . he pleased not himself , but as it is written , the reproaches of them that reproached god , fell on him , rom. . . the son of man came not to be ministred to , but to minister , and to give his life a ransome for many , mat. . . in all these things , and in all other his words and deeds he did shine forth so clearly , that even his enemies could not but acknowledge him to have been a holy and just person : even before pontius pilate he witnessed so good a confession , tim. . . that pilate who condemned him , yet acquitted him from fault , and the malefactor that suffered with him testified , that he had done nothing amisse , luk. . , , . . christ did inlighten now in this time , as the expression is , mark. . . after his resurrection untill the day in which he was taken up , by giving commandments through the holy ghost unto the apostles whom he had chosen , to whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion , by many infallible proofs , being seen of them fourty daies , and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of god , act. . , . . after his departure out of the world into heaven , he was and is an inlightening light , now in this time mediately . . by sending of the holy spirit , whom he promised to send to the apostles from the father , even the spirit of truth , which proceedeth from the father , and that he should testifie of him , joh. . . and guide them into all truth : that he should not speak of himself , but whatsoever he should hear , that he should speak , and would shew them things to come : he should glorifie christ , for he should receive of his , and should shew it to the apostles , that all that the father had were his , and therefore he said , he should take of his , and shew it to them , joh. . , , . which was accordingly accomplished when the holy spirit was given to them , and those prophets , and other teachers , whom christ gave to his church , were endued with the holy ghost after his ascension . to whom and to the rest of believers , the holy spirit is given as the earnest of their inheritance , and thereby the eyes of their understanning are inlightened , that they may know what is the hope of his calling , and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints , eph. . , . who receive not the spirit of the world , but the spirit which is of god , that they might know the things which are freely given them of god , cor. . . because they are sons , god sends forth the spirit of his son into their hearts , crying abba father , gal. . . . by the sending of apostles and other teachers into all nations , of whom in that respect he said , mat. . , . ye are the light of the world . a city that is set on an hill cannot be hid . neither do men light a candle , and put it under a bushel , but on a candlestick , and it giveth light to all that are in the house . ephes. . , . paul saith of himself , to me is this grace given , to inlighten all men , as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies , being the same which is used joh. . . and indeed , christ when he ascended up on high , led captivity captive , and gave gifts to men , some apostles , and some prophets : and some evangelists : and some pastours and teachers , eph. . , . who were angels of light , and being placed on high hills , in great cities , and on candlesticks in many churches , were eminent lights in the world . so that was said of the heavens , psal. . . was verified of them , their sound went into all the earth , and their words unto the ends of the world , rom. . . by which light the unfruitfull works of darknesse , to wit , the w●les of the powers of darknesse , in their idolatries and other wickednesse , was discovered , and innumerable souls brought out of the power of darknesse into the kingdom of the son of god. from whose light succeeding teachers , by preaching the gospel , and baptizing believers , which the ancients called inlightening , many millions of people through the romane empire , and other parts of the earth , became christians , and were added to the children of light : and these teachers are termed starres in christs right hand , rev. . . lastly , in the world to come , as the phrase of christ is , mark. . . as the lightening that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven , shineth unto the other part under heaven : so shall also the son of man be in his day , luk. . . then shall he put on his glorious apparel , and deck himself with light as a garment , and being attended with all the angels of light , shall come in the glory of his father , and raise up the bodies of all the children of light , and bring them to the light ; so as that those eyes which were boared out for acknowledging him , shall see him riding on the clouds of heaven triumphantly , and they themselves shine as the sun in the kingdom of the father . and then he shall be our noon-light , we shall know as we are known , cor. . . sect. . christ inlightens by reason of his own lustre , and his fathers design to to shew him to the world . the reasons why christ is thus an inlightening light , are . from his own property ; he being light of himself , is as all light is , apt to communicate his light to the world . as the property of the fire is to burn , and the property of water to moysten , so it is the property of light to shine forth : nothing is more diffusive of it self , and apt to shew it self to others , then light : darknesse hides things , but light makes them appear . as the prince of darknesse disguiseth himself , puts on the form of a serpent , or samuel ; loves to act in the night , to keep men in ignorance and blindnesse , it being the way most agreeable to his kingdom , which is the kingdom of darknesse : so the lord jesus , the lord of glory , loved the light , his kingdom being the kingdom of light . his birth was manifested by a starre , mat. . . he being the star that should come out of jacob , as balaam foretold , numb . . . and there was darknesse over all the land at his death , so that the sun was darkned , luk. . , . which shewed that then the sun of righteousnesse was eclipsed . his preaching was in the light , i spake openly , said he , job . . . to the world , i ever taught in the synagogue , and in the temple , whither the jews alwaies resort , and in secret have i said nothing . his life and practice also was so illustrious and open , that he could boldly appeal to his adversaries own testimony of him , which of you convinceth me of sin ? joh. . . . christ was the true light inligntening the world by his fathers special design , . out of special love to his people , for whose sake christ was anointed to preach the gospel to the poor , sent to heal the broken-hearted , to preach deliverance to the captives , and recovering of sight to the blind , to set at liberty them that are bruised , luk. . . according to the prediction , isa. . , , . arise , be inlightened , for thy light cometh , and the glory of the lord is risen upon thee . for behold , the darknesse shall cover the earth , and grosse darknesse the people : but the lord shall arise upon thee , and his glory shall be seen upon thee . and the gentiles shall come to thy light , and kings to the brightnesse of thy rising . which is applied thus by paul , ephes. . . wherefore he saith ; awake thou that sleepest , and arise from the dead , and christ shall give thee light . . out of special affection to christ. for the father loveth the son , and hath given all things into his hand , joh. . . for the father loveth the son , and sheweth all things that himself doeth . for as the father raiseth up the dead , and quickneth them : even so the son quickneth whom he will. for the father judgeth no man , bus hath committed all judgment unto the son : that all men should honour the son , even as they honour the father . he that honoureth not the son , honoureth not the father which hath sent him , joh. . , , . to this end it was that the word was made flesh , and dwelt among men , ( and they beheld his glory , the glory as of the only begotten of the father ) full of grace and truth , john . . and to this end did he appear to john , revel . . . cloathed with a garment down to the foot , and girt about the paps with a golden girdle . his head and his hairs were white like wool , as white as snow , and his eyes were as a flame of fire . and his feet like unto fine brasse , as if they burned in a furnase ; and his voice as the sound of many waters . and he had in his right hand seven starres : and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword : and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength , ver . , , . his last glorious appearing , as it is termed , tit. . . shall be with his mighty angels in flaming fire , thes. . , , . when he shall come to be glorified in his saints , and to be admired in all them that believe , god having highly exalted him , and given him a name which is above every name : that at the name of jesus every knee should bow , of things in heaven , and things in earth , and things under the earth : and that every tongue should confesse , that jesus christ is the lord , to the glory of god the father , phil. . , , . sect. . application by way of inference , that we are to blesse god for christs inlightening , and all that are christs , are children of light. from that which hath been said , it follows . that there is much cause that we should blesse god for this incomprehensible benefit to men , especially us gentiles , of raising up christ to be the inlightening light of the world . sure all light which shews to inlighten , and not to amaze , is a great gift . they that have been long blind , or kept in darknesse , and after recover their sight , and see the light , how are they over-joyed ! when blind bartimaeus received his sight , he followed christ glorifying god , luk. . . and shall not we glorifie god , who receive lightfrom christ , not only to follow him in the way in which he travelled on earth , but also in the way in which he passed into glory ? we sometimes seem to wish , that god would send us the light of heaven , and will we not praise god who hath sent his son from heaven to be the true inlightening light to guide us to heaven ? zacharias blessed god , that by his tender mercy the day-spring from on high hath visited us , to give light to them that sit in darknesse , and in the shadow of death , to guide our feet into the way of peace , luk. . , . simeon desired to live no longer , after his meeting with christ in the temple , but blessed god that his eyes had seen his salvation , which he had prepared before the face of all people , a light to lighten the gentiles , and the glory of his people israel , luk. . , , , . herein we are bound to imitate them , and to be inlarged in our blessing god , and glorifying him for this great injoyment of the true inlightening light . . sith christ is the inlightening light , they that are christs are children of the light , and of the day , not of the night or darknesse , thes. . . they therefore that abide in darknesse , and walk in darknesse , have no communion with christ. for what fellowship hath righteousnesse with unrighteousnesse ? and what communion hath light with darknesse ? and what concord hath christ with belial ? cor. . , . now he that hateth his brother , is in darknesse , and walketh indarknesse , and knoweth not whether he goeth , because that darknesse hath blinded his eyes , joh. . . and what is their practice , but practice of harred of their brethren , whose tongue ; are still venting reviling speeches against their brethren , as not in the light , because they confesse sin in themselves , and make not the light in their own consciences a sufficient light to guide them , but sollow the light of the holy scriptures ? surely these are not in the light , who are so full of self-boasting of their own perfection , and pharisee-like , despising others . were we in errour , yet in meeknesse those that oppose themselves should be instructed , tim. . . if god peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth . wherein they failing and following the prince of darknesse in railing accusations , iude . shew themselves not to be in the light of which they brag , but in darknesse . and so likewise they do in not coming to the light of the scriptures taught by preachers , whom they contemptuously term priests . herein also they shew themselves not to be children of the light , in that they will not disclose plainly what they hold , but hide their opinions in cloudy misty expressions ; and when by quistions put to them , there is endeavour to find them out , they shift in answering , and fall to reviling . in a word ; all that walk in hatred , pride , ignorance , intemperance , uncleannesse , deceit , and such like evils , shew they are not in the light , nor have communion with christ , but abide in darknesse . you that would approve your selves to be in christ , must cast away the works of darknesse , and put upon you the armour of light , and have no fellowship with the unfruitfull works of darknesse , but reprove them rather , rom. . . ephes. . . but of this more in that which follows . men coming into the world need light from christ. serm. iv. joh. . . that was the true light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world . sect. . the necessity of christs enlightening is asserted , because of the blindnesse which is in all at birth . coming into the world hath a double sense , either entering on some action or businesse among men , or shewing themselves among men ; and so false prophets are said to come into the world , or to go out into the world , joh. . . and in this sense it is a truth , that christ coming into the world as a prophet , joh. . . was the true light inlightening : but i gave reasons against this sense , serm. . sect. . or coming into the world is meant of humane birth , in the same sense in which it is said , that a man is born into the world , joh. . which i conceive meant by christs going forth from the father , and coming into the world , joh. . . and his coming into the world , heb. . . grotius it is true , annot . on joh. . . argues from the distinction of being born and coming into the world , joh. . . that the coming into the world , is still by shewing himself to the world : but that is not cogent , sith the same thing may be meant by two expressions . but however it be meant , when it is said of christ , that he came into the world , yet here , where it is said of man coming into the world , must be meant of humane birth , which seems most probable for the reasons given before , and accordingly , this point is thence deducible , that every that comes into the world , needs light from christ. which position is true , . because every man is born destitute of spiritual light in the things of god , concerning his duty and the way of salvation . . because every man is liable to death and trouble , and wrath , and evil from god , as he is born into the world : and christ came a light into the world , to remove both these sorts of darkness , and none else can do it . the former of these is to be the more fully confimred , because it overthrows the main position of the quakers , that every man hath a light within him sufficient to guide him , so as that following it , he may please god , and be saved without the light of scripture , or preaching of publique teachers . and it also confirms the doctrine of original corruption , and particular effectual converting grace , against universal sufficient grace , and power of freewill , in the state man is in before conversion , which papists . arminians , socinians , freewillers maintain , and the perfection and merit which after conversion papists and quakers do assert . sect. . universal corruption at birth , is proved from joh . . i shall begin with the words of christ , joh. . . that which is born of the flesh , is flesh ; and that which is born of the spirit , is spirit . to understand the force of the argument from hence , it is to be considered , that christ useth these words in his conference with nicodemus , as a reason of the necessity of new birth by water and the spirit , that a person may enter into the kingdom of god. the kingdom of god meant joh. . , . is to be understood of the kingdom of glory , or that state of everlasting happinesse , which none but those that are clean , sincere and really holy , shall ever be admitted to : in which sense it is taken , when conversion , obedience , humility , and such like qualifications are prerequired to it , and it annexed to them , as mat. . , , . & . . & . . & . . & . , , . & . . mark. . . & . , , , , . luk. . . & . , . & . , , , . act. . . cor. . , . & . . gal. . . thes. . . tim. . . james . . pet. . . the visible church doth admit into it many that are proud , and impure in heart , and therefore the qualifications of holinesse and purity here prerequired are not necessary for entrance into it . whence it follows , that the new birth prerequired as necessary , joh. . , . is of the inward man , to that reall holinesse which is opposite to uncleannesse or unholinesse which was in the first birth ; and consequently , when it is said , that which is born of the flesh , is flesh , must be thus expounded , impure and sinfull , or vitious , according to that sense which the term hath , gal. . , , , . which is confirmed by the opposition in the other part of the verse , that which is born of the spirit , is spirit : for as to be spirit , is meant of true and reall holinesse , which is the genuine fruit and effect of being born of the spirit ; so the being flesh which is the consequent of being born of the flesh , that is by humane generation , joh. . . must be meant of sinfull and impure corruption . they that expound it only of doing the actions of natural life without sin , or of meer weakness without sinfulness , such as was in eve before she sinned , reach not to the scope and force of christs reason ; for in respect of these there 's no necessity of new birth , for entrance into the kingdome of god. a person may do the actions of a natural life , and be weak without sin , and yet not for that reason excluded out of the kingdome of god. a person may be spirit , and yet flesh in that sense , that is weak , and do the actions of a natural life ; whereas here he that is flesh , is opposed to him that is spirit , and therefore natural life or infirmity without sin is not all that is meant by flesh ; there 's pravity and impurity of minde expressed by flesh , as well as naturality or infirmity . it is true by flesh and blood , cor. . . which cannot inherit the kingdome of god , is meant a humane body in its weakness and imperfection . but thus in this life , they that are born of the spirit are flesh , whereas christ saith , he that is now born of the spirit is spirit ; and the new birth which makes us no longer flesh and blood in that sense , is not the birth of water and of the spirit mentioned , joh. . . but the power of god , by which he will raise us up , cor. . . the birth of water and of the spirit , ioh. . . , . is here in this life , the other is not till the resurrection : therefore the same is not meant by flesh and bloud , cor. . . and flesh , ioh . . but in the one place that weakness is meant which is removed by the power of god , and the voice of christ at his coming to judgement ; the other that sinfull blindeness , ignorance , concupiscence , which is consequent on humane generation , and is removed by the preaching of the gospel made effectual by the spirit of god : whence i argue , if that which is born of the flesh by humane generation , be flesh that is corrupt , ignorant , depraved with proneness to errour and evil concupiscence , so as that it must be born again of water and the spirit , afore it can enter into the kingdome of god ; then every man that cometh into the world by meer hnmane generation , is void of light to guide him in his way to god and to salvation , untill christ enlighten him : but the antecedent is true , as hath been shewed by opening the text , joh. . . therefore also the consequent . sect. . vacuity of light without christ enligtening , is proved from rom. . , . rom. . , , , . cor. . . mar. . . iam. . . the same thing is further proved from the words of paul , rom. . , . because the carnal minde , or minding of the flesh is enmity against god , for it is not subject to the law of god , neither indeed can be ; so then they that are in the flesh cannot please god. in which speech the apostle assignes the reason , why the minding of the flesh is death : now by flesh is to be understood the sinfull pravity that is in man , for neither meer natural weakness , such as was in adam and eve afore they sinned , nor the doing of natural actions without sin , nor the minding of these are enmity against god or death , or impossible to be subject to gods law : but the minding of the innate pravity , whose works are set down , gal. . . now such are all that are not in the spirit , ver . . and that by birth , joh. . . therefore all that come into the world are flesh , and till they be in the spirit , are void of that light which might bring them in subjection to the law of god , and so need christs enlightening . the same may be further confirmed from the allegation of the apostle , rom. . , , , . where to prove that all both jews and gentiles are under sin , it is alleadged out of psalmes the . and . that it is written , there is none righteous , no not one , there is none that understandeth , there is none that seeketh after god ; they are all gone out of the way , they are altogether become unprofitable , there is none that doth good , no not one ; which cannot be true if understood without limitation , sith then the scriptures should be false , that say that noah was a righteous man and walked with god , abraham was one that god himself testified of to have feared him , abel obtained testimony that he was righteous , god testifying of his gifts , heb. . . of david god said , i have found david the son of jesse a man after mine own heart , which shall fullfill all my will , act. . . therefore it must be understood of all afore they are enlightned and converted , and so proves that all without exception are void of saving light , till christ do enlighten them , and being universal , is to be conceived to be from their humane generation . if any say , that many of the things there said , as that with their tongues they have used deceit , their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness , ver . , , &c. cannot be said of infants ; it is granted in respect of the actual practice , yet in respect of their disposition , inclination , and aptitude to commit them , they may ; which is further urged from ver . . where he concludes , that all have sinned , and are come short of the glory of god. hereto i shall adjoyn the speech of paul , cor. . . where he saith , that the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of god , for they are foolishness to him ; neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned . in which speech he expresly makes natural men not only non-intelligent of the things of god , afore they have the spirit of god , by whom christ enlighteneth ; but also uncapable of knowing them , because they are discerned spiritually , that is by the spirit . all the difficulty is , who is meant by the natural man. there are that understand by it , not every man that is unregenerate , but the most sensual , and such as are guided by their senses altogether : but the text opposeth the natural man to the spiritual , and makes all the inability to be from the defect of the spirit of god ; and therefore understands the most rational man by [ the natural man ] if he want the spirit of god. nor is the conceit of him , that by [ natural man ] understands the weak christian , and by spiritual the strong christian , opposed to babes in christ , cor. . . right . for though the apostle saith , he could not speak unto them as spiritual , but as to carnal , to babes in christ ; yet doth he neither make babes in christ an equipollent term to carnal , as all one with it , or deny babes in christ to be spiritual : but as the apostle saith , rom. . . be was carnal , though he were a strong man in christ , because he was in part carnal , his flesh did sometimes draw him to fin against his will ; so babes in christ may be spiritual , and yet carnal in part , by reason whereof he could not speak to them under the fin of contentions , as to spiritual persons , but as to carnal . but that the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes a natural man , or one that hath no more then his own soul to guide him , is besides the reasons in the text , made more probable by jam. . . where to the wisdome from above , is opposed that from the earth , from the soul , from the devil , iude . soalary men are described , such as have not the spirit ; in neither place is the word fitly rendered sensual . but were it yeelded , that cor. . . the word translated [ natural man ] signifie a weak christian ; sure it followes , if a weak christian cannot know the things of the spirit of god without christs enlightening , much less a man not so much as a babe in christ : yea the apostle faith , cor. . . he was not sufficient of himself , to think any thing as of himself . but besides these texts , when our saviour mar. . . makes evil reasonings , thoughts , and folly , to come from within out of the heart of man , he surely makes mens hearts void of light , till they be enlightened with his light : and when james , chap. . , . makes every mans sin the issue of his own lust , as every good gift from the father of lights , who of his own will begets us again with the word of truth , jam. . , . he intimates there 's not light in us to avoid sin , till the father of lights begets us again with the word of truth . sect. . vacuity of light without christ enlightening , is proved from gen. . . & . . job . . & . . & . , , . & , . psal. . . jer. . . & . . and experience . to these texts in the new testament , i shall adde more out of the old : as first the words , gen. . . and god saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth , and that every imagination , or the whole imagination or frame of the thoughts of his heart , was only evil continually , or every day , which speech is with little alteration repeated , gen. . . the imagination of mans heart is evil from his youth ; which speech is not a censure only of the giants that werein the old world , but of all men , even from the youth of man , without any exception of any , and therefore is from their generation . nor is it to be conceived to be an excess of speech , expressing more then was true ; for gen. . . it is given as a reason of the great wickedness of man , and gods intended severe punishment , and set down as the object of gods view on his inquisition ; in the later to set out the greatness of his patience , by the greatness of mans sinfulness , to which ends those speeches had been impertinent , if they were understood as expressing more then was true . for then they had not expressed a true inquisition , or a just reason of a severe judgement , which is alwayes to be expressed as befits a judge , whose judgement is according to naked truth , rom. . . not with rhetorical amplifications after the manner of oratours , or a right reason of gods patience , if the provocation were not as great as the words intimate . now this being supposed true , we may hence argue thus . if every imagination , or the whole imagination or frame of the thoughts of mans heart , be only evil continually , or every day from his youth or childehood , then every man till he be enlightened by christ , wants light to guide him in the knowledge of his duty , and the way of salvation , for if the thoughts be not right , the actions are not right , nor the light sufficient , if men stumble and fall , it is an argument they want light ; but such is the imagination of mans heart , as the texts do express : therefore every man that cometh into the world , wants light to rectifie his thoughts about the things of god. and that this pravity of mens imaginations , is an hereditary and not meerly voluntary , or an acquired disease by use , custome , or imitation , the speech of job doth intimate , job . . where to deprecate gods bringing him into judgement with him , in a bemoaning plight he thus speaketh , who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean ? not one : wherein job expresseth , that it is no marvel that all mens lives are so short and so full of trouble , because all being unclean naturally , none by natural generation can beget a clean childe . and if all are unclean morally as they come into the world , then all are void of light ( for that 's a chief part of moral uncleanness ) till christ enlighten them . the same is confirmed by other passages in the book of job , as chap. . . what is man that he should be clean ? and he which is born of a woman , that he should be righteous ? job . , , . how can he be clean that is born of a woman ? iob . . vain man would be wise ; though man be born like a wild asses colt : which speeches do plainly assert mans uncleanness , and unrighteousness , and ignorance , as he is born into the world by natural generation . to which may be adjoyned that speech of david concerning himself , psal. . . behold i was shapen in iniquity , and in sin did my mother conceive me ; which is not likely to be meant of any special sin of his mother , of whom no such thing is related ; nor is it likely that he would mention it to her reproach , nor would it be pertinent to his confession of his own sin , nor is likely to be an hyperbole , or excess of speech , as psal. . . joh. . . for those hyperbolical expressions are descriptions of a man notoriously and openly ungodly in the course of his life ; whereas david however he sinned in the matter of urijah , yet in respect of the constant course of his life , was a man after gods own heart , and therefore it seemes to me to note his original corruption by natural conception , as the cause of his great enormity in the matter of urijah , and to aggravate his sin as springing from himself : now of such corruption , want of light to guide us in our way to happiness , is a chief part . that which the prophet jeremiah speaks , jer. . . every man is brutish in his knowledge , and jer. . . the heart is deceitfull above all things , and desperately wicked , or incurably sick , who can know it ? do express such a destitution of light , truth , and rectitude , as shew that the heart of man is very evil : which being spoken of men universally as they are unchanged , can be well imputed to no other reason or cause , then the derivation of sinfull corruption to all mankinde , by natural generation . to all which allegations from scripture , experience addes abundant confirmation , sith the ignorance , unteachableness , frowardness , untractableness of persons , especially in duties of religion , and the worship of god , untill by catechizing , preaching , discipline , government , and other meanes , whereby the wildeness of mens spirits is tamed , they be brought to some sense and conformity to their duty : and even then when by such meanes the hearts and lives of men are somewhat fashioned , yet upon every new provocation of fear or hope , they quickly draw back from any good course , and embrace any errour , unless by the ministery of the word , help of government , and work of gods spirit , they be strengthened , do fully shew that of themselves persons want light to guide them , and power to uphold themselves in any thing that is good ; but on the contrary are prone to receive impressions , and ro hatch devices of sin and errour , till christ do enlighten them . sect. . every man needs enlightening by christ , by reason of the many evils consequent on sin . as for the second reason of mans needing light from christ , by reason of the evils consequent on our natural darkness , which are not to be removed but by christs enlightening ; it is in like manner manifest by scripture and experience . for . it is plain from scripture , that by one man sin entred into the world , and so death by sin ; and so death passed upon all men , for that , or in whom all have sinned , rom. . . by the offence of one , judgement came upon all men to condemnation , ver . . cor. . . in adam all die . now it is by christ , who enlighteneth mens eyes , that this death and condemnation are removed , and by no other meanes . in christ shall all be made alive , cor. . . even so by the righteousness of one , the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life , rom. . . . besides death and condemnation , all mankinde are liable to innumerable evils , to lighten the burden of which , the enlightening of christ is very necessary ; for that alone can give support and comfort to the soul in the bearing of them . man is born unto trouble , as the sparks flie upward , iob . . man that is born of a woman is of few dayes , and full of trouble , iob . . sufficient unto the day , saith our lord christ , is the evil thereof , mat. . . . man of all creatures is born most obnoxious to harm ; he is born naked and weak , unable to make provision for his own sustenance : naked came i out of my mothers womb saith job , chap. . . we brought nothing into this world , tim. . . the greatest prince is born as naked as the meanest peasant , and all come crying into it , as bewailing their entrance into the world . though the parents rejoyce that a childe is born into the world , yet the childe doth not so . other creatures can quickly help themselves : many years pass over a childes head ere he can beg bread , much less earn it . he wants a great while both feet to seek it , and tongue to ask it , and hands to take it , and teeth to eat it . . to obtain it much care and labour is necessary : it is the doom awarded to adam , gen. . . in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread , till thou return to the ground . there is much pains , and cost , and care , and hazard in all employments , whereby a livelyhood is obtained ; but in none more then in tillage and husbandry , whereby the provision of bread the staff of mans being is procured ; and after all the industry , and skill , and charge , that is used , the ground is cursed for mans sake , thornes and thistles it brings forth to man , gen. . , . sometimes the seven lean kine devour the seven fat ones ; the years of scarcity exceed the years of plenty , so as that there is no bread to be had , nor seed to so we the ground . . besides , as the psalmist speaks , psal. . . surely every man walketh in a vain shew , surely they are disquieted in vain , he heapeth up riches , and knoweth not who shall gather them . that which a man hath laboured for and gotten together , oft times he hath no use of it : sometimes it perisheth of it self , sometimes it is stolne or plundered from him : he that is as rich as job was one day , is as poor as he was the next day : sometimes a man so idolizeth his wealth , that he hath not a heart to use it , but only to look on it , and to talk of it : sometimes sickness , or death seizeth on him , and then as it was with the vain man , luk. . . his soul is taken from him , his projects fail , his goods are as uncertain owners ; which caused solomon to say , eccl. . . yea i hated all my labour which i had taken under the sun , because i should leave it unto the man that shall be after me , and who knoweth whether he shall be a wise man or a fool ? yet shall he have rule over all my labour wherein i have laboured , and shewed my self wise under the sun : this is also vanity . whence he infers , ver. . for what hath man of all his labour , and of the vexation of his heart , wherein he hath laboured under the sun ? for all his dayes are sorrowes , and his travail grief , yea his heart taketh not rest in the night : this is also vanity . . there is much more evil consequent on that darknesse , or sinne which is entered into the world , by reason of the frequent annoyances , persecutions , and temptations which are caused by the enmity of the world , and the acting of our adversary the devil , who continually goeth about like a roaring lyon seeking whom he may devoure . by which it is that all people are full of troubles , civil and forraign wars , which waste people , and their wealth ; private quarrels , which undo many to was and houses ; law-suites , and factions , and ●●iulations , and discords , which ruine many persons and families ; brawls and jarres , and contentions , which overthrow many houses , and cause perpetual vexation . many secret murders , adulteries , perjuries , idolatries , and other evils , are caused by the prince of darknesse , which verifie that censure of solomon , ecol . . . i have seen all the works that are done under the sun , and behold , all is vanity and vexation of spirit . . beyond these , from the darknesse of our own hearts , there do arise so many perturbations of mind , fears , jealousies , dotages , vain hopes , ambitious desires , foolish imaginations , inordinate anger , impatience and discontent , sometimes by provocations , sometimes causlesse , upon tales , surmises , mistakes , dreams , sancies , impostures , contingencies , and otherwise , as make the mind of man like the troubled sea when it cannot rest , whose waters cast up mire and dirt , as the prophet speaks , isa. . . . but most of all the conscience of sinne , and the sense of gods wrath , and the fear of death and judgment to come , over whelm the spirit of man with horrour , make felix tremble , cain turn vagabond , saul grow desperate , and betake himself to one that had a familiar spirit , judas become his own executioner . in a word , make many through fear of death ▪ all their life-time subject to bondage , heb. . . this being of all other the greatest torture of the soul , when god hides his face from a person , which made job expresse himself in this lamenting ditty , job . , , . wherefore hidest thou thy face , and holdest me for thine enemy ? wilt thou break a leaf driven to and fro ? and wilt thou pursue the dry stubble ? for thou writest bitter things against me , and makest me to possess the iniquities of my youth . for as solomon saith truly , prov. . . the spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity , but a wounded spirit who can bear all these things , and innumerable other evils , experience shews to infest the life of man , against which the only remedy is well advised reason , composedness of spirit , patience , saith , hope in god , which must be communicated from christ , who enlightens all with natural or supernatural light ; of which i am next to speak . sect. . application to make us sensible of sins evil , and the worlds vanity , and to provoke us to seek a tredsure above , and light from christ to comfort us . in the mean time by that which hath been said , . it is necessary for our good , that we should be sensible of these two things . . that sin is an imbittering thing , that takes away the relish and pleasure of all the goods we have under the sun , and of our very lives themselves . agag thought , if he had escaped death , then bitternesse had been overpassed , and therefore he came to samuel delicately , sam. . . but experience shewed , that there is often more bitternesse in life then in death . nor is it likely to be otherwise as long as sin remains , for that 's a root of bitternesse , heb. . . a root that beareth gall and wormwood , deut. . . while there is sin in our eating and drinking , there will be bitternesse in our meats and drinks : while there is sin in our nuptials , there will be bitternesse in our marriage society . all states and conditions here , will have their frets , their gnawing worms , and eating mothes . when god corrects man with rebukes for iniquity , he makes his beauty to consume away like a moth : surely every man is vanity , psal. . . . that we have little cause to glory in our birth . it is the property of many to boast of their birth , it is the manner of all parents to rejoyce at their childrens birth . but the sense of sinne should take away our glorying in our selves , the sight of our black feet , should abate our high conceits of our white feathers , and the sense of trouble should allay the excesse of our joy in posterity , and rather provoke us to imitate them that wept at births , and sang for joy at burials . were it not that god makes women forget their travell , they would breed no more and were it not that god hides from the eyes of men the evils that accompany life , they would choose strangling rather then life , and were it not for the consolations of christ , the burdens especially of the godly would be unsupportable , especially when they complain with paul , rom. . . o wretched man that i am , who shall deliver me from the body of this death ! earth is but a reall dungeon , though to some it is an imaginary heaven . . it is necessary , . that we seek our good in other enjoyments then this world . who would make his bed upon thornes ? who would choose his dwelling on the mast of a ship , where winds , and stormes , and perpetual tossings take away all rest ? surely our best enjoyments our best habitation here are no better . we project many things , and promise much to our selves in wealth , wife , children , friends , houses , preserments , and other things , but upon a just account we find all but ciphers , which make no summe . how often doth solomon tell us , when he had cast up his reckonings , that vanity of vanities , all is vanity , eccl. . . and why should we set our eyes then on that which is not ? prov. . . surely the true light holds sorth better counsel , luk. . . provide your selves bags which wax not old , a treasure in the heavens that faileth not , where no chief approacheth , nor m●th corrupteth , a treasure of gospel grace , the new covenant , the heavenly promises , the communion of christ , the fellowship of the spirit , and the life of faith , and these will never deceive our expectations . it were a good wish , if righly minded by the users , god send us the light of heaven . . let us prize the light of christ , and make use of it to prevent , lessen , hear , deliver us out of all the present evils . paul had learned to do so , phil. . , . i know how to be abased , and i know how to abound : every where , and in all things i am instructed , both to be full and to be hungery , both to abound and to suffer need , i can do all things through christ that strengtheneth me . it is indeed the inlightening of christ which clears up all to us , in the most stormy and cloudy day ; it will make us look abroad , and travell with strength in our journey , and run the race which is set before us , and after pauls sad complaint , take up with his conclusion , i thank god through jesus christ our lord , rom. . . o death where is thy sting ? o grave where is thy victory ? the sting of death is sinne , and the strength of sinne is the law. but thanks be to god , which giveth us the victory through our lord jesus christ , cor. . , , . every man hath light from christ sufficient to make him inexcusable . serm. v. joh. . . that was the true light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world . sect. . a natural light from christ is yeilded to be in every man , and the opinions of freewillers of its sufficiency are set down . lighting every man that cometh into the world , is meant either of such light which is by christ as creatour , termed natural , and this is conferred upon all men without exception of any person ; or of such light as is by christ as mediatour , and this is conferred , though not on every single person , yet on all sorts and nations of men , and it is termed supernatural . concerning the former sort of light , it is yeilded that there is natural light from christ given to every man who comes into the world by humane birth . ' this light is the light of reason and knowledge agreeable to humane nature , which if it were not conferred on every man , he should not be rational , but should be degraded into the rank of beasts . it is true which the psalmist saith , psal. . . man that is in honour and understandeth not , is like the beasts that perish . but this only shews , that man by extinguishing his light doth brutifie himself , not that he was without all natural light in his originnl . all experience shews , that each person , even the most natural fool , hath some light of reason , by which he can apprehend some things pertaining to humane being , and some way expresse his mind , though in respect of civil or moral , or religious affairs , he be unteachable . all the difficulty is , how farre it extends in all , or may be improved by them that use it best . in this matter there have been various opinions . the pelagians of old , are said to have held , that each person had so much ability by his own free-will , and by his natural light , as that he might love god , and keep the law , and resist temptations ; though after by councils , and the writings of adversaries , they were driven to yeild a necessity of teaching and outward proposition of divine truths to men to that end . some of the schoolmen , and later papists do hold , that each man hath so much light and power in him , that if he do what he can , god is ready or bound to give him grace necessary to salvation . and this way go arminians , and other assertors of the power of free-will in them that never heard of the gospel of christ preached to them ; conformably whereto , in the pagans debt and dowry , p. . it is said , that by a faithfull and carefull use of those natural abilities , that light of reason , conscience and understanding , which every person of mankind under heaven receiveth from god , he may and shall receive from him yet further , that which shall be of saving import and consequence to him . not much short of these is that french divine of much note , who maintains universal grace objective , though not subjective , that is , though there be not such an universal working by illumination , or other operation of the spirit of god , so sufficient or effectual as to beget saith in every one , yet there is so much revealed to every man , even those that have not heard of christ , as might , if they would apprehend it , beget faith in god to salvation . sect. . the opinion of the quakers concerning a light within each man , is inquired into . out of the principles of these men , whether instilled by popish emissaries , which have crept into the english armies and churches , or some other way , that sort of people , who now go under the name of quakers , from their usual quaking before they began to speak , thereby deluding the people , as if they waited for a revelation from god , though most of their speeches of all of them , have been their usual invectives against preachers , and pressing men to follow the light within them ; these people , i say , have drawn their tenet of an universal light in every man that cometh into the world , without bibles , preachers , church-communion , christian ordinances , to know his duty so as that he may be perfect : which is indeed the reviving of old pelagianism , or worse , and tends to the making of christian religion , if not all religion whatsoever , unnecessary . those who heretofore or at this day maintain this universal sufficient light , besides these quakers , are many of them subtile disputants , and do set down their opinion distinctly , and argue for it acutely , though they decline the expresse owning of pelagius his grosser expressions , and puccius his natural faith , and hurberus his universal election . but the quakers , as they are for the most part destitute of that art of reasoning , so they decline all conference , in which they may be pressed to state the point in difference distinctly , and to deliver their proofs , and answer objections : but instead thereof by clamour and reproaches , which please their silly followers , they reject all motions tending to a fair debate of the point in controversie . being desirous to know what they held , one of them brought to me james nailors book termed a salutation to the seed of god , and love to the lost : which being in many passages obscure , i delivered to him that brought me the book , fifty five queries to be answered by them , yea , or no , as the person had required of me to answer his queries . the answer , though made by one , formerly known to me , as a person of some ingenuity and learning , yet was framed otherwise then i required , declining to answer affirmatively or negatively to the question , as by me propounded , but shifting off a plain answer , and instead thereof , venting personal invectives . yet to my third question , which was thus , do you believe , that those men , who were never taught the doctrine of the law , or of the gospel of jesus christ , have commonly a light within each of them , which may guide them to the true knowledge of god , and his waies , unto everlasting life ? omitting his words of obloquy , thus he answered ; the law is spiritual , and there is no nation or people into which the sound of it hath not come ; and the gentiles which had not the letter , were a law to themselves , shewing the effect of the law written in their hearts . and christ is the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world with a spiritual light , the one loves this light and brings his deeds to it , and by this light is led from his evil deeds into the knowledge of god , who is life eternal in christ to know ; the other hates the light because his deeds are evil , and loves darknesse rather then light , and there is his condemnation . and their sound who were ministers of this truth went into all the earth , and their words unto the ends of the world , rom. . . in which answer there is not an expresse resolution of the question , but sundry shifts to avoid a plain answer , as . whereas he asserts that the law is spiritual , rom. . . which is the law of the ten commandements , or the last precept of the ten ; and the apostle ver . . saith , i was alive without the law once , which intimates that he was once without the law ; that is , without the right knowledge and understanding of it . and rom. . . the gentiles ( of whom my question was ) are said twice not to have the law ; yet this answerer asserts , there is no nation or people into which the sound of it hath not come : and to avoid the objection arising from the words , useth this expression , and the gentiles which had not the letter , whereas the words are expresse , they having not the law. . he patcheth together different scriptures , joh. . . joh. . , . as if the light communicated by christ coming into the world , were the same with that , with which in his sense he lighteth every man that cometh into the world ; not heeding , that , if every man that cometh into the world had a light sufficient to guide him , and that even the gentiles ( of whom paul saith , gal. . . that they knew not god ) had a spiritual light , and that thereby some were led from their evil deeds , into the knowledge of god , who is life eternal in christ to know , then none were in darknesse , contrary to paul , ephes. . . none were without christ , or without god in the world , contrary to paul , ephes. . . then christ need not come into the world to inlighten men , nor sond ministers of this truth into all the earth , sith they had this light before . christ was come into the world to inlighten them with spiritual light , and if christ doth inlighten with this spiritual light every one that cometh into the world , there are none but come to the light , they having it within them , and it doth reprove their deeds whether they will or no. but it is no marvell , that men that boast so much of light within them , shew so much darknesse of mind in their expressions , it being true of them , as christ said of the pharisees , joh. . . because ye say , we see , therefore your sin , or blindnesse , remains . however it may be hence gathered , that this is their conceit , that every man that cometh into the world , even the gentiles that had not the letter , ( by which he meanes the holy scriptures or bible ) or any preacher or teacher to instruct them out of it , yet had from christ a spiritual light , and that one loves this light , and brings his deeds to it , and by this light is led from his evil deeds into the knowledge of god , who is life eternal in christ to know , the other hates the light , because his deeds are evil , and loves darknesse rather then light , and there is his condemnation . whence it plainly appears , that those two points of pelagianism , popery , arminianism , socinianism , and the frecwill way , are their opinions , that every one hath a light within him , or there is such revelation imparted to every man in the world , that if he would use it , he might come to saving knowledge , and that it is left to every man by his own free-will to difference himself from others . this universal light is so magnified by george fox in his catechism , that he tels us , that it shews all the ungodly waies that ever a man hath acted in , and hard speeches ; with that light a person will come to see christ the saviour of his soul , from whence the light comes to save him from sin ; that it brings him to christ , and to confesse him ; that it gives the knowledge of the god of the world that rules in them that are disobedient to this light ; that it gives the knowledge of the glory of god in the face of jesus christ , the true knowledge of the scriptures , which light being one in them all , and they come to the light , and loving the light , they all come into fellowship one with another , and being out of this , they are in jarres and confusions , that it lets see sin and transgression , which hath separated from god , and the mediatour between god and him , and might have peace with him , and that he might see gods covenant of light , and know his reconciler with which he is reconciled to god , tim. . . cor. . . and to see the kingdom of heaven , that it brings them to love god above all , and to fulfill the law , to know their election , their bodies to be the temples of the holy ghost ; that they must scoff , reproach , backbite none , nor have malice to any , but to be meek and humble ; with it they come to see the hope of glory , to sanctifie the lord in their hearts , that it keeps from error , guile , all distraction and distemper , drunken thoughts , imaginations , conceivings , and his own reasonings . in a word , they ascribe all to it that we ascribe to the gospel ; yea it 's termed the gospel , the first principle of pure religion , they that professe to believe the scriptures , in god , in christ , yet not believing in this light they deny christ ; that neither the jews nor christians do believe in the light which doth enlighten every man that cometh into the world , though they professe some of christs and the apostles words , that none can confesse christ but who confesse the light which every man is enlightened withall , that they who do not teach this are teachers of the world , antichrists , deceivers , that the letter ( meaning the scripture ) is not the light , nor the word . he denies them to be christians that cry up erras pulpit , and the priesthood and the temple , and the jews sabbath , and the ordinances of the first covenant , and that take tithes . more to the same purpose is delivered by george fox , hubberthorn , and many more , insomuch that farnworth in his discovery p. . saith , loving the light , it will guide you to god from all men , that you need never look at man more . which is indeed their aim , that they may draw off people from scriptures , preachers , church-fellowship , ordinances , pay no dues to ministers , nor submit to any church-discipline , which is that which they call liberty of conscience ; not considering , that if their hearers may be guided by their own light to god , that they need not look at man more , they need not look at themselves , nor meet to hear them , nor entertain them to teach them ; yea , that by their reasoning , the quakers themselves shew they do not believe in the light , that they deny christ , while they look at fox , parker , goodier , and such teachers , and maintain them : and that the divisions between fox and naylor , and others , shew that their light within them is not one , but that they are out of the light . however they assert , . that there is a light in every man. . that this is sufficient to guide them to god of it self . . that it is a rule to shew duty and sin . . that there is no need of other teaching of man. . that this is one in all . . that it is the gospel . now because this is the main prop of the new antichristian religion , or frenzy of the quakers , and leads them into the pernicions courses they take ; i shall shew , . what is to be ascribed to the light that is in each man , whether from the birth , or after imparted to them , in this business of guiding us to god. . that neither is it of it self a safe rule for us to follow , in things moral or spiritual ; nor by any engagement is god tied , or hath declared himself resolved , to give supernatural light to him that useth this universal light well . . how the objections may be answered . . in what manner christ imparts supernatural spiritual light to every man. sect. . some light is in the most barbarous , yet the knowledge of the most refined gentiles , may be conceived to come from some acquaintance with the written law , or tradition from adam . to clear the first of these proposals , it is to be premised , . that god hath imprinted in all , even the most barbarous people , some relique of light ; though in some of them it is so small , that it can hardly be perceived whether there be any sense of sin or wrath of duty or reward , of god or devil , heaven or hell . sure such people as are men eaters , do all at the beck of their witches , do seem to have scarce any sense of sin or duty ; yet because there is some fear of an unseen power and his wrath , they may be said to have some conscience , though the writing therein be almost defaced . . that some people that never had the gospel nor the law made known to them , as the jewes and christians have had ; yet have attained to so much knowledge and practice of moral duties , that in some acts of righteousness , temperance , chastity , fidelity , and such vertues they have equalled , at least in respect of their outward demeanour towards men , if not exceeded not only iewes , but also most christians . . and in the knowledge of god , though therein they were most defective , yet they attained to so much knowledge and right apprehension of him , as enabled them to correct the vulgar errors concerning god , although they were very blinde about the distinct notion of the true god and his counsels . . nevertheless that it can hardly be avouched , that that knowledge in morality and divinity which they attained to , was by meer light of nature , or by their own study and invention ; but it may with very probable reason be conceived , that they had much of their knowledge of these things by tradition from adam , and acquaintance with the hebrew people , and their written laws or unwritten traditions . sure there are so many footsteps of their rites in their customes , of their writings in their poets , and historians and philosophers works : there are such relations of their philosophers travail into aegypt ; besides this , that the most understanding people were such as did trade with phenicians and aegyptians , next neighbours to israel ; as may give us cause to think that the cream of that knowledge they had , was not from a light within them ( for then why should not other people as well as they have attained to it ) but from a light without them , darted directly on israel , but from them yeelding some strictures of light , and glimpses to the greekes , italians , and other people . sect. . the light without the written word which was in the gentiles , in the utmost extent of it was imperfect however what the scripture makes deducible from other meanes then the scripture , or it or experience proved , that the most barbarous people attained to , we may safely ascribe to this natural light . of these things , . it is certain the being of god , his eternal power and godhead might be , and was known by the things which god created , as the apostle , rom. . , . because that which may be known of god , is manifest in or to them , for god hath shewed it unto them : for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen , being understood by the things that are made , even his eternal power and godhead , psal. . . the heavens declare the glory of god , and the firmament sheweth his handywork . . gods providence ordering and disposing all the motions of the creatures with incomprehensible wisdome , for the benefit of the universe , might be discerned from the admirable , and usefull , and constant order , motion , influx , properties and operations , the creatures have . psal. . , , . day unto day , uttereth speech , and night unto night sheweth knowledge : there is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard : their line is gone out through all the earth and their words to the end of the world . act. . , . who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own way ; nevertheless he left not himself without witness , in that he did good , and gave us rain from heaven , and fruitfull seasons , filling our hearts with food and gladness . from gods creating and providing for man , not only the holy psalmist , psal. . , &c. psal. . and elsewhere , but even philosophers among the gentiles have taken occasion to magnifie the divine wisdome , power , and goodness : and yet the most witty people knew not distinctly who this god was , but did ignorantly worship him under this title of the unknown god , as paul sayes of the athenians , act. . . . they did or might know that god was invisible , rom. . . that he was a spirit . aristolle terms him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an intelligence or minde ; deus est animus , said the latin poet : that he knew and judged thoughts , and discerned the most hidden things was known by them , as their accusing or excusing themselves by their own consciences between themselves , apart from others shewed , rom. . . and yet when they knew god , they glorified him not as god , but became vain in their imaginations , and their foolish heart was darkned ; professing themselves wise they became fools , and changed the glory of the uncorruptible god into an image made like to corruptible man , and to birds , and to four footed beasts , and creeping things , rom. . , , . . they did or might know that god was to be worshipped . aristotle in his topicks saith , to dispute whether god and parents deserve honour , deserves punishment . all nations saith tully , l. . tusc. quaest . acknowledge a deity and divine worship , and yet they understood not that god that made the world , and all things therein , seeing that he is lord of heaven and earth , dwelleth not in temples made with hands , neither is worshipped with mens hands , as though he needed any thing , seeing he giveth to all things life , and breath , and all things , acts . , . . they knew that god was to be pacified by prayer , and sacrifice , and vowes , and obedient mindes , and repentance , and executing of judgement , as may be discerned by their carriage , jonah . and . chapters ; yet knew not any thing of the great sacrifice which god had prepared to take away sin for ever , and they often applied themselves to pacifie the devil even by humane sacrifice , instead of seeking peace from the true god. . they did or might know the low condition of man in comparison of god , as the psalmist saith of himself , psal. . , . when i consider the heavens the work of thy fingers , the moon and the starres which thou hast ordained ; what is man that thou art mindefuil of him , and the son of man that thou visitest him ? and infer the absolute soveraignty of god , as the apostle doth , rom. . . shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , why hast thou made me thus ? and as he doth conclude , rom. . . for of him , and through him , and for him , are all things , to whom be glory for ever . and yet men have complained of their hard destiny , and imagined god a debtour to them , and that god should fulfill their pleasures , as well as they do his will ; and self-exalring under the name of magnanimity , was by aristotle made a vertue , vapouring , a mans excellency . . they might and should have known that parents are to be honoured , wives to be cherished , children to be nurtured , justice to be administred ; yet many thought they might neglect parents commands , to please their companions ; and deny them maintenance , to keep an undue and rash vow ; and put away wives , for light causes ; and expose their children ; and violate right , to gain preferment and greatness . . the apostle tells us , rom. . , . for when the gentiles which have not the law , do by nature the things contained in the law , these having not the law , are a law unto themselves , which shew the work of the law written in their hearts , their conscience also bearing witness , or witnessing with them , and their thoughts the mean while , or between themselves , accusing or excusing one another ; which proves that there was some sense of sin and duty in the most barbarous people , and accordingly there was and is some kinde of government and administration of justice among them . some sins as of murther , adultery , robbery , perjury , breach of faith and trust , parricide , and some other sins have been judged to be horrible evils , which they durst not commit . abimelech gen. . . durst not use sarah , when he knew she was abrahams wife ; and yet he thought he should have been innocent , if she had been but his sister . either by instinct of nature , or by tradition from adam , adultery was judged a horrible crime , when simple fornication , sodomy , and other uncleanness , were reckoned as no faults by the gentiles , which knew not god , thes. . . parricide was counted such a sin as none durst commit ; no law therefore was made against it by salon . tully pleads for sextus roscius amerinus , that he could not be guilty of it , because he was sleeping at the time of his fathers death , which the fury of his conscience would not have permitted , if he had been guilty of parricide . and yet self-murther to avoid tyrants rage , was applauded ; theft if cunningly acted , was allowed by lycurgus ; drunkenness , and whoredome , and murthering in fence-playes and duels , either made religious services , or matter of glory . . they might and did by natural light know , that god did discover and avenge secret murthers , adulteries , perjuries , sacriledge , and other evils , that he had 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an avenging eye ; and hence was there much fear of thunder-claps , stormes , earthquakes , plagues , and many means used to pacifie the anger of the deity . yet they were not sensible of the eternal judgment to come , though they imagined punishments to be awarded to malefactors after death . the barbarians of melita , act. . . when they saw the viper hanging on pauls hand , said among themselves , no doubt , this man is a murtherer , whom though he hath escaped the sea , yet vengeance , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , suffereth not to live . . they might and did imagin , that god was a rewarder of good deeds ; in defence of their countrey , in doing justice , and such like acts , and some counted it their chief good to do vertuous acts : but they knew nothing of the resurrection of the dead , and the life everlasting , prepared for them that believed and obeyed the truth of the gospel . in these , and many more things , the gentiles , which knew not god , had some natural light , in some it was more clear then in others , in some so dusky and dimme , that it was scarce discernable : but in none such as that it could be a constant universal rule to direct them in what they were to do , or warrant to justifie them in what they had done , or means to shew them how to come to god , and enjoy communion with him , and to save them from wrath to come . sect. . the gentiles light by nature , served to restrain from sin , and to leave men inexcusable . neverthelesse this light , though insufficient to direct for justification and salvation , yet was usefull for two ends : . to restrain men from such excesse of sinne , as would otherwise have destroyed humane society . it being the contrivance of god to let men live together , though very evil , till their iniquities be full , and when sins are ripe , then to put in the sickle , and cut wicked men down , either by a particular or an universal judgment . in the mean time , as he gave the law to the jews , because of transgressions , gal. . . either to restrain them , or to abate punishments , till the seed came to whom the promise was made , that there might be a people among whom the messiah should appear : so to other people he gave a law in themselves , to prevent the extirpation of the nations , by bridling mens lusts through conscience of sinne , and fear of punishment , till the time should come of their calling into the church . . besides this end god hath another , in respect of himself , that they might be inexsusable who sinned against the light in them , and god might be justified in his sentence and judgment upon them . therefore it is said , rom. . . that the eternal power and godhead , was made known from the creation of the world , by the things that are made , that they might be without excuse , who held the truth in unrighteousnesse , and when they knew god , glorified him not as god , neither were thankfull : but were filled with unrighteousnesse , though they knew the judgment of god , that they that commit such things are worthy of death , ver . , . whence it is , that gods judgment is proved to be according to truth , rom. . . and , god found to be true , though every man be a lyer , as it is written , that thou mightest be justified in thy sayings , and mightest overcome when thou art judged , rom. . . ignorance of the law being not to be pleaded by them who did evil against the innate light of their own spirits , forasmuch as that fact must needs be voluntary , which is done against the knowledge and judgment of a mans own conscience . sect. . application to justifie us against quakers , and to warn us that we act not against our light. from this which hath been said , we may infer , . a plea for our selves against the clamorous , but unjust accusation of the quakers , who use with loud vociferations even to hoarsnesse , and with continual printed pamphlets , to charge publique preachers with denying the light within each man : whereas such light is not at all denied by them , but is acknowledged to be a great benefit to mankind . that which is denied , is , that the light within each person , is alone of it self , without the scripture , a sufficient direction to bring us to god , and instate us in his savour ; or a sufficient warrant of it self to to justifie our actions . it is usefull , but not in such a measure as the quakers make it , as if persons were to look to it and no other rule , and that they might well enough be without scripture , preachers , church-discipline , ordinances of the new testament , and such other helpes as god vouchsases to guide his people by into the way of peace . wherein how much they are mistaken , shall be shewed in that which follows . . in the mean time each person is to make use of the light within him so farre as it is indeed light , and usefull . certainly it concerns every man , so farre to look to the light within him , that he do not as it is said of some , job . . rebell against the light . a mans own conscience is so farre a law to him , that though it cannot of it self justifie , yet it may condemn : my meaning is , a mans own light cannot warrant of it self without the scripture , a mans actions to be lawfull which he doth according to that light . our saviour tells there are some that shall think they do god service in killing the apostles , joh. . . paul told agrippa , act. . . i verily thought with my self , that i ought to do many things contrary to the name of jesus of nazareth . so that herein he followed the light within him , and yet he counted this his great sinne , tim. . . the quakers accuse often falsly , and revile most abominably , others who are no whit inferiour to themselves , and they say they follow their light within them , and yet he that reads and believes such scriptures as these , cor. . . cor. . . pet. . . jude . , . cannot but think their practice to be from the devil , and not from gods spirit . if following the dictate of a mans own conscience could warrant his action , the most horrid acts of misted idolaters , papists , pagans , mahometans , fanatiques should be free from censure and controul . yet if a man do that which he thinks to be evil , though it were good or lawfull in it self , it would be sin to him , and so much the greater , in that it is a sign , that he who doth thus , shews , that his principle by which he acts is naught , even then when he does good , and that it is but by accident that he doth it . yea , that man who doeth good against his conscience , is but an hypocrite in so doing , though the thing in it self be right and good . but when a man doth evil , which his conscience tells him is so , he commits a sinne of the highest degree , as to him that knows to do good , and doth it not , to him it is sinne , jam. . . that is , sin in an high degree . hence great horrour of spirit hath attended them that have omitted good which their conscience told them they should do , and much more horrour in them that have done evil against their conscience , as in the case of judas , spira , and others instances might be given , and therefore if quakers intended no more then this by bidding men look to the light within them , that they should take heed that they omitted not the good their consciences told them they ought to do , and that they did not the evil which their consciences judged to be so , we should accept of their warning . surely it will concern you , as to look that your conscience be not erroneous , so that when your conscience is rightly informed to follow it , and when it goes wrong yet to suspend the act which it condemns , if you desire peace . there will be no plea to acquit him before god , or to quiet his own spirit , who proceeds to act against the light of his own conscience . and a sinne against the light of nature is so much the more damnable , in that it is against the most irrefragable evidence . he that doubteth is damned if he eat , because he eateth not of faith . for whatsoever is not of faith is sin , rom. . . every mans light within him , is not a sufficient safe rule of it self to guide him in the way to god. serm. vi. containing thirty arguments out of scripture , against the quakers opinion of the sufficiency of a light in every man to lead him to god. joh. . . that was the true light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world . you have heard how imperfect the light of the gentiles , in things moral and religious is : and what the quakers and others ascribe to the light in every man that cometh into the world , and to the free will of man in that condition he now is by nature : it will be my work now to prove the quakers to erre , in their making each mans own light within him his rule , yea his compleat safe rule and guide , to open the meaning of scripture , discover all sorts of sinnes , teach all duties , lead to god , to christ , to heaven , without scripture , preachers , and other helps : that it is not such of it self , nor to be followed by it self , i shall prove by many arguments , and then consider whether god be bound to give men supernatural light to direct men to christ , to him that shall use well his natural . the first argument i take from the point proved in the fourth sermon before , and the texts therein alledged , which evince , that men as they are born into the world , are destitute of spiritual light in the things of god , that concern mans duty , and the way of salvation ; whereof some are so expresse , that they do directly oppose the position of every mans having a light in him as fit to guide or warrant his actions . as namely , when it is said , that none understandeth , none seeketh after god , rom. . . the natural man cannot know the things of the spirit of god ; for they are spiritually discerned , cor. . . every imagination of the thoughts of mans heart is only evil continu●lly from his youth , gen. . . & . . every man is bruitish in his own knowledge , jerem. . . the heart is deceitfull above all things , jerem. . . which could not be true , if mens light of understanding were such , as that each man may follow in all sorts of moral and religious points his own light , as a safe and compleat rule or warrant to direct and justifie his way or action . the argument in form is this : their light is not a safe and compleat rule to warrant and guide their actions for pleasing god , who understand not nor seek after god , who cannot know the things of the spirit of god , whose imaginations of the thoughts of their heart are only evil continually , who are bruitish in their own knowledge , and whose heart is deceitfull above all things . but these things are said of all or some men , therefore every mans light within him is not a safe and compleat rule to warrant and guide his actions for pleasing of god. the proposition none will deny , but they that think that a blind man may be a fit guide . the assumption is the words of holy scripture , which g. f. saith in his catechism , p. . we are to believe afore learned men . the conclusion then follows of it self . . argument is from that which is shewed sermon fifth , that the light which without the scripture was in the most improved gentiles , in the utmost extent of it , was imperfect : whence i argue , their light was not a safe and compleat rule or guide to direct or justifie them in their worship of god , imaginations of god , the knowledge of all sin and duty they owe to god , who confessed god to be unknown , who ignorantly worshipped him , who had a foolish darkned heart about their thoughts of god , who judged many sins to be either no sins , or laudable acts , who took vices to be vertues : who had vain , and uncertain , and contrary conjectures of these things , and many of them from the devils oracles , carried away to dumb idols as they were led , cor. . . for a rule and guide should be certain which will not deceive . but the most improved gentiles confessed god to be unknown , ignorantly worshipped him , with the rest of the things mentioned , as acts . , . rom. . , . and elsewhere is manifest , therefore they had not a light within them sufficient to guide them ; and if not they , then much lesse the most barbarous , and by consequent none of the gentiles , who had not the scripture , nor such other teaching as gods people were taught by , had a light within them which might be a compleat and safe rule or guide to them for the pleasing of god. . argument from john . , , . near to the text which is so much urged by quakers , where it is said , the light shineth in darknesse , and the darknesse comprehended it not , ver . . the true light mentioned ver . . was in the world , and the world was made by him , and the world knew him not . he came unto his own and his own received him not , ver . , . which proves many of the jews were darknesse , and that they knew not the true light , nor received him . whence we thus argue : they had not a light within them sufficient to be a safe rule and guide to direct and warrant them in their way for pleasing god , who were darknesse , when the true light shined , who knew him not nor received him ; for sure they that are such , must be destitute of that light which might safely guide them , who were so dark and ignorant , as not to know the true light which enlightens every man. but so it was with many , even of the jews themselves , when christ was in the world : therefore they had not sufficient light in them , and consequently none ; much less every man hath a sufficient light to guide him safely in his way to god , without the scripture , and the spirit of god , over and above the common light of reason and understanding , which every man by nature and study attains to without them . . arg. from those texts of scripture which do expresly tell us , that afore the preaching of christ and his apostles , the people to whom they were sent were darkness , sate in darkness and in the shadow of death : such are ephes. . . ye were once darkness , mat. . . the people that sate in darkness , have seen a great light , and to them that sate in the region and shadow of death , hath the light sprung up . whence i argue , they had not a sufficient light within them , to be a safe and compleat rule and guide to direct them in their way to please god , and to warrant their actions if they followed it , who were darkness , and who sate in darkness , and in the region and shadow of death ; unless we will imagine that darkness is light , and as the quakers do , put darkness for light , and light for darkness , to whom the prophet denounceth wo , isa. . . but some there were afore christs and his apostles preaching to them , who were darkness , who sate in darkness , and in the region and shadow of death : therefore every man had not a sufficient light within him , to be a safe and compleat rule and guide to direct him in his way to please god , and to warrant his actions if he followed it : and if not then , neither have we now . . arg. from luk. . . where our saviour saith , the children of this world are wiser in their generation , then the children of light : the opposition of children of light , to the children of this world shews , that the children of this world , are not children of light ; and if they were the same , the speech of christ would be foolish in preferring one sort before the other , as wiser in their generation . hence therefore i thus argue , if every man had a light within him , sufficient to be his rule and guide of it self to direct him how to please god , then every man should be a childe of light ; for to be a childe , is all one as to be a person that hath light in him to guide him , so as to please god. but every man is not a childe of light : therefore every man ha●h not a light safe and sufficient within him , to guide him in his way to god , and to be the compleat rule of his actions godward . . arg. is from act. . . where paul saith , christ sent him to the gentiles to open their eyes , and to turn them from darkness to light , pet. . . ye are a peculiar people , that ye should shew forth the praises of him , who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light . eph. . . wherefore he saith , awake thou that sleepest , and arise from the dead , and christ shall give thee light . from whence i argue , they who are to be turned from darkness to light , called by god out of darkness into his marvellous light , who are to awake and stand up from the dead , that christ may give them light , had not a light within , as a sufficient safe guide to direct them in their way to god ; unless we suppose darkness to be light , men among the dead , fit to guide themselves . but so it is said of both jews and gentiles in those scriptures : therefore sure they had not such a light within them , as quakers say is in all . if they had such a light , they should have been directed to follow it , not turned from it , the apostles should have called them , as the quakers do , to follow the light in them , and not have called them out of darkness , nor required them to awake and stand up from the dead , that christ may give them light : nor should we do , as the apostles did , bid men leave the darkness in them ; but as the quakers do , look to the light in them . . arg. from rom. . , . how then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ? so then faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of god. heb. . . without faith it is impossible to please god. for he that cometh to god must believe that he is , and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him . whence i argue , that is not a sufficient guide in our way to god , which cannot of it self make us believers ; for that is not sufficient to guide us to god , that is not sufficient to beget faith , sith there is no coming to god without faith , as is told us , heb. . . but the light within us cannot of it self make us believers , sith the apostle saith , how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they bear without a preacher ? so then faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of god ; which were vain speeches , if there were another ordinary way by a light within us to beget faith : therefore the light within us is not of it self without preaching , a safe sufficient guide in our way to god. . arg. from rom. . . and be not conformed to this world , but be ye transformed by the renewing of your minde , that ye may prove what is that good , that acceptable and perfect will of god. eph. . . and be renewed in the spirit of your minde , col. . . and have put on the new man , which is renewed in knowledge , after the image of him that created him . whence i argue , they who must not be conformed to this world , but be transformed by the renewing of their minde , that they may prove what is that good , that acceptable and perfect will of god ; who must put off the old man , and be renewed in the spirit of their minde ; who must put on the new man , which is renewed in knowledge , had not a light within them antecedent to this renewing , which might enable them to prove what was gods acceptable will , nor be a sufficient safe , rule to guide them to god. for if they had , what need such transforming , renewing , non-conformity to the world , putting off the old man ? but all that have access to god must be thus transformed , renewed , put off the old man , as the texts shew : therefore they have not a light within them , as a safe sufficient guide to lead them to god. . arg. from psal. . , . but my people would not hearken to my voice , and israel would none of me ; so i gave them up to their own hearts lust , and they walked in their own counsels . act. . . who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own wayes : whence i argue , that light in man cannot be a safe sufficient guide to a man in his way to god , to which the leaving a person , by god is reckoned as the greatest curse and judgement , for refusing to hearken to god ; but to leave a person to his own imagination , lust , to walk in his own counsel , in his own way , ( which is all one as to leave him to the light within him ) is reckoned as the greatest curse and judgement to a man from god , for refusing to hearken to gods voice , as the texts shew : therefore the light within each person is of it self no safe guide . the quakers prescribe to men that as their rule , which god counts their curse . . arg. from rom. . , . now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel , and the preaching of jesus christ , according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began , but now is made manifest , and by the scriptures of the prophets , according to the commandment of the everlasting god , made known to all nations for the obedience of faith . cor. . , , . but we speak the wisedome of god in a mystery , even the hidden wisedome which god ordained before the world to our glory , which none of the princes of the world knew ; but as it is written , eye hath not seen , nor ear heard , neither have entred into the heart of man , the things which god hath prepared for them that love him , eph. . . and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery , which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in god. col. . , . whereof i am made a minister , according to the dispensation of god , to fulfill the word of god , even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations , but now is made manifest to his saints . tim. . . the purpose and grace of god is now made manifest , by the appearing of our saviour jesus christ , who hath brought immortality and life to light by the gospel : whence i argue , they had not a light in them as a sufficient safe guide to god , from whom the mystery was hid , which concerned the grace and purpose of god , into whose heart the things which god had prepared for them that love him entered not , to whom life and immortality was not brought to light . but from the gentiles the mystery of god was hid , life and immortallity was not brought to light , nor did the things god had prepared for them that love him , enter into their hearts : therefore they had not a light within them , as a sufficient guide to god. . arg. from cor. . . for what man knoweth the things of a man , save the spirit of a man which is in him ? even so the things of god knoweth no man but the spirit of god. rom. . . now if any man have not the spirit of christ , the same is none of his . jude . having not the spirit . joh. . . the spirit of truth , whom the world cannot receive . whence i argue , they have not light within them sufficient to guide them to god , who have not the spirit of god , because they cannot know the things of god without the spirit . but every man hath not the spirit of god : therefore every man hath not a light within , sufficient to guide him to god. . arg. from mat. . . all things are delivered unto me of my father , and no man knoweth the son but the father , neither knoweth any man the father save the son , and he to whom the son will reveal him . joh. . . jesus saith unto him , i am the way , the truth , and the life , no man cometh unto the father but by me . whence i argue , they had not a light within them to guide them to god , to whom the son did not reveal the father , who did not go by the son as the way to the father . but the son did not reveal the father to every man , nor did every man come to christ , joh. . . . & . . & . . . therefore every man had not a light within him , sufficient to guide him to god. . arg. from mat. . , . at that time jesus answered and said , i thank thee o father lord of heaven and earth , because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent , and hast revealed them unto babes ; even so father , for so it seemed good in thy sight . mat. . . it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdome of heaven , but to them it is not given . whence i argue , if god hide the things of god , which concern the knowledge of himself from some , and reveal them to others ; if to some be given to know the mysteries of the kingdome of heaven , not to others , then every man hath not a light within him , as a sufficient guide to direct him to god. but the antecedent is true as the texts shew , and the consequence is evident of it self : therefore the consequent is also true . . arg. from those texts which speak of christ as a light come into the world , joh. . . i am come a light into the world , that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness . joh. . . then jesus spake again to them saying , i am the light of the world , he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness , but shall have the light of life . joh. . . as long as i am in the world , i am the light of the world , joh. . . and this is the condemnation , that light is come into the world , and men loved darkness rather then light , because their deeds were evil . luk. . . through the tender mercy of our god , whereby the day-spring from on high hath visited us , to give light to them that sit in darkness , and in the shadow of death . luk. . . a light to lighten the gentiles ; which would have been needless , if every man had a light within him befo●e christ his coming into the world , sufficient to guide him in the way to god : yea the text supposeth persons in darkness before , to sit in darkness , and in the shadow of death , and to have need of another light without them to guide their feet into the way of peace , and that the gentiles were without light . whence i argue , that opinion which makes the coming of christ into the world , to be the light of the world needless , is an errour . but the opinion of the quakers concerning a light in each man that cometh into the world , sufficient to guide him into the way of peace of it self , makes the coming of christ useless , and asserts that persons had light , when the text supposeth they were in darkness : therefore their opinion about the light within each person , is a manifest errour . . arg. from those texts which make the scriptures necessary and usefull to give light to men , tim. . , , . and that from a childe thou hast known the holy scriptures , which are able to make thee wise unto salvation , through faith which is in christ jesus . all scripture is given by inspiration of god , and is profitable for doctrine , for reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousness , that the man of god may be perfect , thorowly furnished unto all good works . rom. . . for whatsoever things were written aforetime , were written for our learning , that wethrough patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope , mar. . . and jesus answering said unto them , do ye not therefore erre , because ye know not the scripture ? joh. . . search the scriptures , for in them ye think ye have eternal life , and they are they which testifie of me . whence i argue , that opinion which terms the scripture the letter , in disparagement of it ; that makes it unnecessary ; which dehorts from searching it ; and directs to follow the light in each man without it , is contrary to the testimony given by paul and christ concerning the use , vertue , and necessity of scripture , to keep from errour , to make wise to salvation , to give comfort , to furnish for good works . but such is the opinion of the quakers , as their words recited serm. . shew : therefore it is contrary to christs and pauls speeches . christ saith , search the scriptures , quakers say , no , but look to the light within you . . arg. from isa. . . to the law and to the testimony : if they speak not according to this word , it is because there is no light in them . psal . . thy word it a lamp unto my feet , and a light unto my path . whence i argue : that opinion which makes supposed light within each man , which is often disfonant from the law and the testimony , and the word of god , a safe rule and guide to each man , is erroneous . but such is the quakers opinion , which is contrary to the law and testimony , and gods word , opposing ordinances , ministry , and many other things , therefore it is erroneous , and their speech is without light in it . . arg. from ephes. . . when he ascended up on high , he gave gifts to men : and he gave some , apostles ; and some , prophets ; and some , evangelists ; and some , pastours and teachers , for the perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministry , for the edifying of the body of christ. cor. . . and god hath set some in the church , first apostles , secondarily prophets , thirdly teachers . are all apostles ? are all prophets ? are all teachers ? hence i argue , that opinion and practice is evil , that makes every man a teacher , and teachers set by god for the work of the ministry needlesse , and as if they were no gift but a burden to the church , cryes them down , is contrary to gods and christs way , and so antichristian . but thus doth the opinion and practice of the quakers , therefore it is evil and antichristian . . arg. from ephes. . . i make mention of you in my prayers , that god may give unto you the spirit of wisdome and revelation in the knowledge of him , the eyes of your understanding being enlightned . hence i argue : that opinion which makes it unnecessary to pray for the spirit to enlighten mens eyes in the knowledge of god , is impious . but thus doth the opinion of quakers , which makes each mans light in him a sufficient and safe rule and guide in his way to god : therefore it is impious . . arg. from psal. . . who can understand his errours ? hence i argue : if each mans light within him be a sufficient and safe-rule and guide to each man in his way , and every man follow it ( as they do unlesse in presumptuous sins against conscience ) then there be no errours or sinnes of ignorance in man , or they may be understood by each man , but the psalmist saith there are errours , and so many , that he makes them as not to be understood by any : therefore each mans light within him , is not a sufficient and safe rule and guide to him in his way to god. . arg. from acts . . and the times of this ignorance god wi●ked at ; but now commandeth all men every where to repent . whence i argue : if each mans light within him be a sufficient safe rule and guide to direct him in his way to god , then he need not repent of his ignorant worship of god , for then he followed the light in him . but god commands men to repent of the ignorant worship of him , therefore each mans light in him is not a sufficient and safe rule and guide for him to go by in gods worship . . arg. from prov. . , , . trust in the lord with all thine heart , and lean not to thine own understanding . in all thy waies acknowledge him , and he shall direct thy paths . be not wise in thine own eyes . rom. . . be not wise in your own conceits . whence i infer , that which makes a man to lean to his own understanding , to be wise in his own eyes , in his own conceir , is a pernicious opinion ; for it makes a man not to depend on god for teaching him in his waies , but makes him proud and listed up . but the opinion of the quakers concerning each mans own light in him , as a sufficient safe rule of it self , to guide him in his way to god , makes him to lean to his own understanding , to be wise in his own eyes , and his own conceit , therefore it is a pernicious opinion . these quakers blesse men in following their own light , when god saith , isa. . . wo unto them that are wise in their own eyes , and prudent in their own sight . . arg from judges . . in those daies there was no king in israel , but every man did that which was right in his own eyes . psal. . . thus they were defiled with their own works , and went a whoring with their own inventions . whence i argue , if to do that which is right in our own eyes , and to follow our own inventions , be the sign of wicked men , and a going a whoring from god , then to look to the light within us , and to follow it , is not a safe way to god , but the way to depart from god. but the antecedent is true , therefore the consequent . the truth is , god forbids the following of our own supposed light , as the greatest impiety , which the quakers place all their godlinesse in . . arg. from the same text i argue , if each mans light within him were to be his guide , then kings and rulers should not restrain men from , or punish them for doing that which is right in their own eyes , but the contrary is supposed , judges . . where the defect of government is made the permission of every man to do that which is right in his own eyes , therefore each mans light in him is not to be his rule and guide specially in religion . . arg. from prov. . . there is a way which seemeth right to a man : but the end thereof are the waies of death . that guide is not a safe guide , which may lead a man into a way whose , end is death : but the supposed light in a man may guide him into a way whose ▪ end is death , for that way that seems right to him may be the way to death , and a man follows his supposed light , when he walks in that way which seems right to him : therefore the supposed light which is in each man , is not of it self a sufficient safe guide of a man in his way to god. . arg. from prov. . . train up a child in the way he should go , and when he is old , he will not depart from it . foolishnesse is bound in the heart of a child , but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him . hence i argue , if there were in each man who cometh into the world a light , which might of it self be a sufficient and safe guide to lead him to god , then there should not be foolishnesse so bound in the heart , which hath need of the rod of correction to drive it far from him ; there would not be need to train up a child in the way he should go , he might guide himself without such training : but the contrary is manifest from the text . therefore there is not in each man that cometh into the world , such a light as might of it self be a sufficient and safe guide to lead him to god. . arg. from joh. . , , . no man can come unto me , except the father which hath sent me draw him . it is written in the prophets , and they shall be all taught of god. every man therefore that hath heard and learned of the father cometh unto me . not that any man hath seen the father , save he which is of god , he hath seen the father . therefore said i unto you , that no man can come unto me , except it were given unto him of my father . hence i argue , if each mans light within him were of it self a sufficient safe guide to lead him to god , then there would be no need of a further drawing or gift of the father , that he might come to christ , his own light without any other help would make known christ to him . but this is contrary to the words of christ , therefore each , mans own light , is not of it self a sufficient safe guide to lead him to god. . arg. from john . . beloved , believe not every spirit , but try the spirits whether they are of god. thes. . . prove all things , hold fast that which is good . hence i argue , if each persons light within him were a sufficient and safe guide of it self to lead him to god , then no man need to try other mens spirits , or prove all things , left he be deceived , sith if he follow his own light he is infallible , nor is any man to be distrusted , unlesse he appear a voluntary deceiver , fith his own light will not misguide him . but these things are absurd and contrary to the warinesse christ prescribeth , mark. . . take heed what you hear : and the apostles in the places cited , therefore the light within each person , is not of it self a sufficient safe guide to lead him to god. . arg. from psal. . . where david prayes , search me , o god , and know my heart : try me , and know my thoughts : and see if there be any wicked way in me , and lead me in the way everlasting . if david had a light within him , of it self a sufficient and safe guide to god , he should not have been jealous of his own heart or thoughts , so as to need god to search , know , and try him , and lead him , he might lead himself : but it is otherwise with david , and therefore he knew he had not a light within him , as a sufficient safe guide to lead him into the way everlasting . . arg. from deut. . . and what nation is there so great , that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as ast this law which i set before you this day . ver. . keep therefore and do them , for this is your wisdom , and your understanding in the sight of the nations , which shall hear all these statutes and say , surely this great nation , is a wise and understanding people . psal. . , . he sheweth his word unto jacob : his statutes and his judgment ; unto israel . he hath not dealt so with any nation , and as for his judgments they have not known them . rom. . , . what advantage then bath the jew ? or what profit is there of circumcision ? much every way : chiefly because that unto them were committed the oracles of god. hence argue , if each gentile had a light within him as a sufficient guide in the things of god , as the quakers teach , then they had known gods statutes and judgments , gods oracles had been committed to them as well as the jews , they had had as righteous statutes , and been as wise a nation as they . but all these consequents are false and contrary to the texts , therefore each gentile which came into the world , had not such a light within him , as might be a sufficient safe guide to him in the things of god. . arg. from rom. . . i had not known sinne , but by the law : for i had not known lust , except the law had said , thou shalt not covet . hence i argue , that was not a sufficient safe guide of itself to god , which without the law neither did nor could discover sinne , the sinne of lust : but the light within paul , and so much more of other men , neither did , nor could discover sin , even the sin of lust , without the law : therefore the light in each person , is not a sufficient safe guide of it self , without the written word , to lead him to god , and to warrant his actions . every mans light within him , is not of it self a sufficient safe guide unto god. serm. vii . joh. . . that was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world . sect. . ten reasons more are urged against the quakers opinion , of the sufficiency of the light in every man to guide him to god. hitherto i have argued against the quakers opinion , of the sufficiency of each mans light within him from scripture : i shall now argue against it by reasons ; whereof the first is this : if each mans light within him is his rule and a safe guide , then what each man conceives according to his light within him is right and true ; for what is according to the rule and a safe guide , is true and right , it being proper to a rule , to be the measure according to which each thing is to be tried , and that cannot be a safe guide that erres : but what each man conceives according to his light within him , cannot be right and true , for one mans conceits do sometimes contradict anothers . thus it is reported by quakers themselves , that george fox contradicted jawes nailor ; nor do i think all quakers are of one minde , when they follow the light in them . and if they should agree , yet he that should say all mens conceits , who follow the light in them , were the same , none contradicting another , would appear either monstrously impudent , or extremely mad . now sure two contradictories cannot be both true ; it 's resolved on by all that have the use of reason in an ordinary measure , that it is impossible that the same thing , at the same time , in the same respect , should be and not be , be so and not be so : therefore it is against the very light of nature , and first notions of humane reason , that each mans light within him should of it self be a sufficient right rule and safe guide to him , in that which concerns the knowledge and way of god. . that which is variable and alterable , cannot be a persons rule : for it is the property of a rule to be invariable , and the same at all times ; the rules , measures , and weights , and dials , and squares , and what other things are made if they be varied , they cease to be rules , for rules should be fixed and certain . but there is nothing more variable then mens light in them ; that which is this day taken for light , is to morrow judged to be darkness ; and that light which is this day in a person , may be lessened to morrow ; a person may become frantick and doate , who yesterday was heard speak with applause : therefore each persons light cannot be his rule , so as that at all times he should be bid look to it , and follow it as a safe guide to him , as quakers do . . if that light which each person hath in him should be his rule , and his guide , then it were unnecessary , and unsafe , and foolish , to trouble himself to seek counsel of another , and to be guided by his light : but this is contrary to all resolutions of wise men , and contrary to all experience of the necessity of taking counsel , and the course of all people that are not wilfull fools . all men magnifie the wisdome of the aged , and others who give counsel , they are honoured as the most necessary persons in humane society . it is threatned as the heaviest judgement of a people , to take away from them the counsellour , isa. . . the wise woman said , sam. . . they were wont to speak in old time , saying , they shall surely ask counsel at abel , and so they ended the matter . prov. . . where no counsel is , the people fall ; but in the multitude of counsellours there is safety . prov. . . the way of a fool is right in his own eyes ; but he that bearkneth unto counsel is wise . prov. . . without counsel purposes are disappointed ; but in the multitude of counsellours they are established . prov. . . hear counsel and receive instruction , that thou mayest be wise in thy later end . prov. . . every purpose is established by counsel ; and with good advice make war. prov. . . for by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war ; and in multitude of counsellours there is safety . all men in their right wits do condemn rash persons as foolish : he is a wise man said hesiod , that takes good counsell ; he is wiser that gives ; wisest that gives and takes ; but a very fool that neither gives nor takes good counsel , arist. ethic. ad incom . l. . c. . but by quakers doctrine , they are wisest who follow their own light , for they follow a safe and sufficient guide , which none but men out of their wits do assert , it being contrary to all experience of all men concerning themselves , and others since the creation , to this day . . if that each persons light within him be a sufficient and safe rule and guide to him of it self , then the meetings of quakers to consult about any affairs in common , or to teach each other , or to communicate revelations , is needless and vain , sith each may guide himself by his own light ; that 's done in vain by more , which may be done by fewer : would not we censure him as foolish , who would travell far , and bestow much cost for that elsewhere , which he might have without labour and cost at home ? especially if it be as they say , that each man is to look to his own light ; and that is it which they most of all tell them , it being in a manner all that they say at those meetings of them , where i have been present ; which when i have heard , i have admired at the silliness of some hundreds of people , who have come many miles to hear a person in a close of pasture in a hot summer day on a stage , nothing almost but brawl against others , and instruct them in nothing , but bid them look to the light within them ; and yet they stood a great part of such a day in a crowd , to hear such speech . . if each persons own light in him be his guide and rule , then is it in vain to desire and expect revelations and discoveries , which they had not before , sith they have light within them of themselves . therefore when they compose themselves to their quaking fits , that they may have some word of the lord to speak to people ; what is this but either an hypocritical devise , when they pretend some new revelation , and do but repeat again what they have often said ; and blasphemous , to term this the word of the lord , and pretend it to be from the spirit of god , when it is but their ordinary talk , and some of it false and unrighteous , or else al needless thing , sith they have light within them sufficient to guide them , without other revelation ? . that which is the worst of all : by ascribing so much to the light within them , satan hath this advantage , that whatever he can imprint on them as their light ( which persons are very apt to take as from god , when it suits with their wills and lusts , or comes into them with force and supernatural impulse ) they must receive it without examination , and obey it . by which meanes satan hath drawn persons to horrid acts , which they have judged necessary duties : as to omit elder instances ; the things related by gilpin of kendal concerning himself ; and that which happened nearer to us , concerning the young man that drowned himself in a little puddle in a ditch not farre from worcester , that he might meet with christ , not many years since , do give us sad proof how the devil works on quakers , who are deluded by this principle of following the light within them , without scripture . . if every mans light within him be a sufficient and safe guide unto god , then there is no difference to be put between wise and foolish , learned and unlearned ones ; it is as safe a way which the unlearned and foolish follow , as that which the wise and learned follow in matters of religion , and moral behaviour . he that is counted unlearned and foolish , if he follow his own light , doth as well as he that is never so wise or learned : whereas solomon tells , eccl. . , . then i saw that wisdome excelleth folly , as farre as light excelleth darkness ; the wise mans eyes are in his head , but the fool walketh in darkness . . if every mans light within him be a sufficient safe guide in his way to god , then the philosophers light afore they had the gospel preached to them , was a sufficient safe guide to them ; for sure they had as much light within them without the scripture as any , and did improve it to the utmost ; and the iewish rabbins , besides the natural light in them , did by the study of the law , and tradition of elders , endeavour to attain to the knowledge of god : yet saith the apostle to the greeks that sought after wisdome , the preaching of christ crucified was foolishness ; insomuch that the apostle cor. . , . useth this exprobration , where is the wise ? where is the disputer of this world ? hath not god made foolish the wisdome of this world ? for after that in the wisdome of god , the world by wisdome knew not god , it pleased god by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe . . if every mans light within him were a sufficient safe guide to him in religion and morality , then do all law-makers ill , to put any laws on them , to restrain them from doing what they like ; then do iudges ill , in passing sentences of condemnation of them ; then do men ill to reprove them ; parents , tutors , schoolmasters , ill to teach them otherwise ; then is all government and magistracy unprofitable ; rulers are not ministers of god to us for good , but only to molest and oppress us ; then they that set their children to school do foolishly ; universities , and schools of arts , to breed them up in literature and good manners , are vain ; and all these are to be abolished , which were a way to lay all waste , to level people , as well in manners and knowledge , as estates , to reduce us to barbarism , to make the nation a wilderness , yea to depopulate it , and in fine drive away the spirit of god from us , and introduce unclean spirits to repossess us and our land. it is such a course as tends to expell all that is excellent , and may better us , and to fill the nation with a generation of fools , in whom god hath no pleasure , eccl. . . and doth by consequent condemn all the men of worth in the world , since the creation , of folly and blindness . . lastly , if every man have a light within him , which is a sufficient safe guide to him , then i suppose they will grant that i have such a light within me ; and if every man is to follow this light , then i am to follow my light in me : now my light within me shews me , that the quakers opinion about the light in them is an errour ; that they pervert fouls by bidding men follow it ; and draw them off from making the scriptures their rule , terming it disparagingly the letter ; and oppose preachers , reviling them , openly thwarting them and molesting them in their work of teaching the people out of the scripture ; and this is not only my light , but the light of millions of men besides me : yea i think all the sober men of the world that ever were , have found by experience their own darkness , and ignorance , and have groaned under it , bewailing it to god , and applying themselves to the use of such meanes , as might bring light into their soules . out of all which i conclude , that this opinion of quakers which i have refuted , is the most sottish opinion that ever was hatched , instilled into them by the prince of darkness , not by the spirit of god , and tends to the dissolution both of religious discipline and civil government ; yet they say , or rather brawl somewhat for their opinion , which is now to be considered . sect. . objections of quakers for the universality and sufficiency of light in men , are answered . that which they most urge , is the text joh. . . which makes not for them , nor against us , who deny not that every man hath a light from christ ; but the kinde of it , that it is spiritual , and the sufficiency of it , that of it self it is a safe guide to god : of which enough is said before . they alleadge also luk. . . where it is said to the pharisees , behold the kingdome of god is within you : therefore in every man. whereto i answer , . that the particle translated [ within you ] may be as well , and to my apprehension more truly rendered [ among you ] which is the translation in the margin . . that the sense is , the kingdome is not to be expected as a future thing ; but as it is mat. . . the kingdome of god is come unto you . luk. . . the kingdome of god is come upon you . luk. . . the kingdome of god is come nigh unto you : which is not meant of light within , but the preaching of the gospel , or the presence of the messiah ( who was among them , joh. . . ) without them the light within each man cannot be meant by the kingdome of god : for the kingdome of god is a thing that was not afore christs appearance in the flesh , and was taken from the iewes and given to the gentiles , mat. . . which is not to be said of the light within every man. nor is it said , the kingdome of god is in every man , but within or among you pharisees or iewes , to whom the gospel was at first sent : for john the baptist preached , mat. . . the kingdome of heaven is at hand ; and christ went preaching the gospel of the kingdome . mat. . . and mat. . . from the dayes of john the baptist the kingdome of heaven is forced . mat. . . every one that heareth the word of the kingdome : which and many scriptures shew , that the kingdome of god is not extended to every man , nor every hearer , but to those that hear the gospel , and receive it . it is alledged that the apostle saith , rom. . , . that the gentiles who had not the law , did by nature the things of the law , these having not the law are a law unto themselves : whereto i answer , that it is true of the gentiles , that their own consciences were a law unto themselves , but not so far as to convert or guide them to god , but to accuse or excuse them to themselves , as the very next words shew : who shew the work of the law written in their hearts , their consciences bearing them witness , and their thoughts between themselves accusing or excusing . it is alledged that it is said , col. . . that the gospel hath been preached to every creature under heaven ; therefore every one hath the light within him , which is the gospel : to which i answer , the gospel is not the light within each person , but that word without them which was preached to them , of which paul was a minister . the light within each person is by creation , and inward work of the spirit ; but the gospel is the word brought to our ears by preachers without us , which is never received by many of those to whom it is preached . and when it is said to be preached to every creature , the meaning is not that every particular person heard it ; but as when christ bids them preach the gospel to every creature , mar. . . the command is not that they must preach it to every particular person , even to infants , for that had been an impossible work ; but that they should preach it to any indefinitely , not restraining them to the lost sheep of the house of israel , as he did formerly , mat. . , . in which sense the apostle saith , col. . . he warned every man , and taught every man ; that is any without difference who occurred , whether iew or gentile . it is often urged that it is said , col. . , christ in you the hope of glory ; therefore it is christ within a person which is the hope of glory , which some of them have made their saviour , and not he who was crucified at jerusalem ; and this fancied christ within them , they seem to confound with the light within them , and the gospel . but i answer , . that this is a meer phantastick delusion , to imagine a christ in themselves different from that iesus christ born of mary , who is the saviour of the world ; nor is there in the words , col. . . any ground for such a distinction : for the term rendered [ in ] may as well be rendered [ to ] as it is vers . . if not , the meaning is , christ is in them the hope of glory , that is , christ who is in them by faith , or christ who is the hope in them , that is , their hope of glory . . however this is certain , that christ in them , cannot be meant of the light that is in every man , for that is by generation ; but this christ in them was only in the saints , vers . . and by preaching , whereby god made it known , which had been hid from ages and generations , vers . , , , . it is alledged that jerem. . . god promiseth , and they shall no more teach every man his neighbour , and every man his brother , saying , know the lord : for they shall all know me , from the least unto the greatest of them . therefore every man hath a light in him , and needs no preacher . to which i answer , . that it is manifest from heb. . , . that this is not a declaration of what all men have upon their birth , but what some shall have under the new covenant by special grace , and therefore is not meant of the light within each person whatsoever ; for that was as well under the first covenant , but those who are specially called under the gospel . . the meaning is not that they shall have no more teaching at all ; then gods word had been broken , when paul taught the knowledge of god , cor. . . but either the meaning is , they shall not teach by such obscure shadows or predictions as they did before , but so plainly , as that they may with unveiled fact , behold the glory of the lord , cor. . . which seems the most genuine meaning by vers. , . or in a comparative sense , their knowledge shall be so abundant , as that each person who hears the gospel and believes it , shall be able of himself to know the lord. it is urged that isa. . it is said , all thy children shall be taught of the lord ; therefore every man hath a light within him . answ. . all thy children , cannot be meant of every one that cometh into the world : our saviour hath taught us , joh. . . to expound it of one sort of persons , those that have heard and learned of the father , not all . . nor can it be meant of that teaching , which is by the light within a man common to him , with every man besides ; but that peculiar teaching of god by his spirit and his gospel , whereby a person cometh to christ ; that is believes in him , which is never by the meer light which each man hath in him by humane birth . it is yet further urged that it is said , joh. . . but the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you ; and ye need not that any man teach you ; but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things , and is truth and is no lie ; and even as it hath taught you , ye shall abide in him : whence they would gather , that each mans light within him , or at least each persons light within him , who hath the spirit of god , is sufficient to teach him without scripture or preacher , which is the thing they aime at , that there may be some colour to , make scriptures and preachers seem needless . to it i answer , the speech is in opposition to those that seduced them , vers. . who were the heretiques of those times , whether ebionites , cerinthians , nicolaitans , or gnosticks , whom he terms antichrists , vers. , and , . he mentions their heresie , the denying the father and the son ; which was done , by pretending a more sublime and refined doctrine then the apostles taught ; of another creatour then the father ; of the son , as only in shew and appearance come in the flesh , crucified , risen again ; in opposition of whom , he tells them they were armed by the anointing and its teaching , and so they need not any , ( that is any of those seducers mentioned vers. . ) should teach them , nor that any other doctrine upon any pretence whatsoever should be taught them , but that which they had been taught by that anointing . now how did that anointing teach them ? undoubtedly by the apostles , as is manifest by vers. . let that therefore abide in you , which you have heard from the beginning , which is expressed plainly to be that , which he and other apostles taught and declared unto them , chap. . , , , . to which he saith , the spirit beareth witness , joh. . . and saith , joh. . . we are of god , be that knoweth god heareth us , be that is not of god heareth not us ; hereby know we the spirit of truth and the spirit of errour . whence it is apparent , . that they only , not every man , have no need that any teach them , who have received the anointing . . that it is not meant , that they have no need of any mans teaching any thing at all ; but that they have no need of the seducers doctrine , pretended to be more exact and sublime . . that the teaching of the anointing was not by peculiar immediate revelation , but by bearing witness to what the apostles taught . . that they only that receive the doctrine of the apostles , are taught by the anointing . . that when it is said , the same anointing taught them of all things ; it is not meant of all things simply , for then they should have been omniscient , they should have known the day and hour in which the son of man cometh ; whereas christ saith , the father only knowes it , mar. . . but of all those things concerning the father and the son , of whom the hereticks pretended a deeper knowledge then the apostles had . now these things being premised , this text is against the quakers , not for them ; for it asserts not a light in every man , but only in those in whom the anointing was ; nor a teaching of that anointing by peculiar immediate revelation , but by the apostles preaching , which is the same with the doctrine of the scriptures ; and so proves the quakers not of god , who hear not the apostles , are not guided by the scriptures , but by a peculiar light within them , falsely ascribed to the anointing of the spirit of god , and teach other doctrine then what is received from the apostles ; and so is a warning to us that we should not hear them ; and justifies the preachers who preach the doctrine which the apostles delivered ; and shews those only to have the anointing and to be rightly taught by it , who receive their doctrine , which is in the scriptures . sect. . the opinions of gods obligation to the user of natural abilities well and of universal calling , are errours pernicious . it remains that i should say something of the other opinions mentioned , serm. . concerning the certainty of gods communicating that which shall be of saving import to every man , that useth his natural abilities faithfully and carefully , and universal calling by that which is termed objective grace . for though my purpose was only to examine the quakers opinion about a light in every man , yet sith these two opinions do come very near the quakers opinion , and did either beget it at first , or do much serve to confirme it , and are the high way to the opinion of the gentiles salvation , who lived vertuously , though the gospel were not taught them by any preachers sent to them ; and of those who hold that every man may be saved in his own religion , if he live honestly ; which tends to make christs coming in the flesh unnecessary ; christian religion and the preaching of the gospel more then is simply necessary to salvaiion ; which quencheth zeal in propagating the gospel , professing of christ , resormation of religion , and suffering for the christian doctrine ; and fills the land with luke warm neutralists , meer moralists , and atheists : i shall briefly examine them . the opinion of gods engagement to him that useth faithfully and carefully natural abilities doth suppose . that there may be , if there never were , a faithfull and carefull use of natural abilities by every person of mankinde under heaven : this use is to be conceived to be for the finding out of the knowledge of the true god , his will and counsel , and the observing them . now this cannot be conceived to be in any , who hath not a heart to be subject to god , if he might know his will , and to worship him , if he could understand how he should do it , and doth carefully study to finde out these , and enquires diligently after them . but the scripture tells us , vers. . that the minding of the flesh is enmity against god , for it is not subject to the law of god , neither indeed can be ; so then they that are in the flesh cannot please god , rom. . , . now all they are supposed to be in the flesh who are not in the spirit , vers. . those two members comprehending all men : now no man is in the spirit who is not in christ , vers. , . and he that hath only natural abilities is not in christ ; till a man believes in him he is not in christ : therefore no man that hath only natural abilities , hath a heart to be subject to god , if he might know his will ; nor to worship him , if he could understand how to do it ; nor will carefully study to finde out these , and enquire diligently after them ; and therefore the supposition of a faithfull and carefull use of natural abilities by every or any person of mankinde to come to god , is a supposition of an impossibility , as the state of mankinde now is . to this argument may be added that our lord christ tells us , mat. . , , . do men gather grapes of thorns , or figs of thistles ? even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit , but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit . a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit , neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit : which speech though it be understood of the most diminute impossibility , that is a moral impossibility only ; yet in that sense it will evince , that none of those men who have only natural abilities ( by which they can never be made any other then corrupt trees ) have or can have an inclination to use faithfully or carefully their natural abilities for god , but only for themselves ; so that if they do at any time enquire after god , it is by reason of some kinde of preventing work of god , not by any application of themselves faithfully and carefully to seek after god. i omit the arguments which i have used serm. th and th before , to prove destitution of spiritual light , and imperfection of natural light to guide us to god , which prove that it is vainly supposed that any man , much less every man , either will or can in his meer natural estate , use his natural abilities faithfully and carefully to seek after god. . it is supposed , that he that doth thus use his natural abilities , shall receive from god yet further that which shall be of saving import and consequence . for quicker dispatch , i omit the search both into what a man must do , that he may be said to have thus used his natural abilities ; and what that is of saving import and consequence which he shall receive , and say that if it were supposed a man did use his natural abilities thus , yet there is no assurance that he shall receive from god that which is of saving consequence , which i prove thus : . if those jewes and gentiles who have used as well as they could their natural abilities , have not received from god that which is of saving import and consequence , then there is no assurance given of every mans receiving from god that which is of saving import and consequence , who shall faithfully and carefully use his natural abilities of reason and conscience . but the antecedent is true : therefore also the consequent . the consequence is of it self manifest , and the antecedent is proved by instances . the young man mentioned , mar. . . that observed all the commandments from his youth , insomuch that it is said christ loved him . vers. . and that he was not far from the kingdome of god. and israel that followed after the law of righteousness , but attained it not , rom. . . used as well as they could their natural abilities , and yet received not that which was of saving import and consequence from god. and the greeks which sought after wisdome , yet by wisdome knew not god , cor. . , . therefore there is not assured that , which is of saving import to the well using natural abilities . . if god use a clean contrary way to lay his right hand on the head of ephraim , and his left on manasseh ; i mean to bless with saving grace the worst of the gentiles , and to reject jews most zealous of the law , then he gives not assurance of their receiving that which is of saving import and consequence , who faithfully and carefully use their natural abilities . but the antecedent is true , as eph . , , . col . . rom. . , . rom. . . tit. . , . appears : therefore also the consequent . . if the scripture do exclude works of righteousness , which men do from being the reason of giving saving grace , and ascribe it entirely to gods will as the adequate reason , then he doth not assure that which is of saving import and consequence to them , that use natural abilities faithfully and carefully . but the former is true , tit. . , . tim. . . rom. . . mat. . , therefore also is the later true . . if god were engaged to give to him that well useth natural abilities , that which is of saving consequence , then he is so engaged by the worth of the work , or by some promise he hath made thereto . but neither of these is true ; not the former , because no works done by a man in the flesh please god , rom. . . without faith it is not possible to please god , heb. . . not the later ; if there be any such promise let it be shewed . i know it is usually urged that christ faith , mat. . . to every one that hath shall be given , and he shall have abundance ; which is used by many , to prove that god hath promised to give supernatural grace to him that well useth natural light . i will not enter into an accurate discussion of the meaning of this text , nor ser down the various limitations with which it must be circumscribed , that it may be found true . dr robert abbot in a particular lecture , dr william twisse , vindic. grat . l. . errat . . digr . . sect. . have done much to clear it . it is enough for the present purpose , . that the talents cannot be meant of natural abilities . . because both the parables mat. . . do express the occurrences pertaining to the kingdome of heaven : therefore the use of the talents is the use of something pertaining to it , not of what is common to all humane kinde . . the talents are said to be given to servants , vers. . luk. . . therefore the talents are not natural abilities which every man hath . . the speech must be meant of the gospel , the hearing , understanding , and receiving of it . . because the parable expresseth the occurrences belonging to the kingdome of heaven . . because mat. . , . it is made the reason why it was given to the disciples of christ to know the mysteries of the kingdome , but to others it was not given . . because luk. . . it is made the reason why they should take heed how they hear ; which had not been pertinent , if the promise of giving more were not to them that rightly hear and receive the word . . it is more fully cleared by mar. . , , . where christ having said , if any man have ears to hear let him hear , it is added , and he said unto them , take heed what you hear ; with what measure you mete , it shall be measured to you ; and unto you that hear shall more be given . for he that hath to him shall be given , and he that hath not from him shall be taken away , even that which he hath . luk. . . it is even that which he seemeth to have . . the having doth hence also appear to be meant of hearing with a hearing ear , and of obeying the gospel ; it cannot be meant of bare possession , but of right using , because he that had but one talent had possession ; yet is said not to have , because he did not well imploy it . the sense then is , to him that hears the gospel with an hearing ear and an obedient heart , more knowledge , comfort , spiritual abilities , and happiness shall be given ; but an unfruitfull disobedient hearer shall lose all the comfort and happiness he seemed to have . all spiritual saving light is from christ. serm. viii . joh. . . that was the true light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world . sect. . all spiritual saving light of knowledge , peace , joy , hope , life , and glory , is from christ. it remains that i consider the senses in which christ as the great officer of his father , or mediatour between god and man , enlightens with spiritual light every man that cometh into the world . i said that the text may be understood of this light two wayes , . that all who are enlightened with spiritual light to salvation , have it from christ. . that he doth enlighten all sorts and nations of men with spiritual light . i shall consider both . . that all who are enlightened with spiritual light to salvation , have it from christ , is the same with that which christ saith , joh. . . i am the way , the truth , and the life , no man cometh unto the father but by me . and it is proved in the several sorts of spiritual and saving light , that all who have them , have them from christ. . there is the light of the knowledge of the glory of god , as the expression is , cor. . . and that is in the face of jesus christ. no man hath seen god at any time , the only begotten son which is in the bosome of the father , he hath declared him , joh. . . not that any man hath seen the father , save he which is of god , he hath seen the father . joh. . . if ye had known me , ye should have known the father also , vers. . he that hath seen me , hath seen the father . believest thou not that i am in the father , and the father in me ? the words that i speak unto you i speak not of my self , but the father that dwelleth in me , he doth the works . mat. . . all things are delivered unto me of my father , and no man knoweth the son but the father , neither knoweth any man the father save the son , and he to whom the son will reveal him . from whence it is apparent , that the light of the knowledge of god and his grace which bringeth salvation , is all from christ. it was the spirit of christ which was in the prophets , which testified beforehand the sufferings of christ , and the glory that should follow , pet. . . . there is the light of peace with god , which is derived from christ and no other . cor. . . and all things are of god , who hath reconciled us to himself by jesus christ. vers. . god was in christ reconciling the world unto himself , not imputing their trespasses unto them . vers. . for he hath made him to be sin for us , who knew no sin , that we might be made the righteousness of god in him . heb. . . wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren , that he might be a mercifull and faithfull high priest in things pertaining to god , to make reconciliation for the sins of the people . isa. . . but he was wounded for our transgressions , he was bruised for our iniquities the chastisement of our peace was upon him , and with his stripes we are healed , pet. . . who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree , that we being dead unto sins should live unto righteousness , by whose stripes ye were healed , col. . , . for it pleased the father that in him should all fullness dwell , and ( having made peace through the blood of his cross ) by him to reconcile all things to himself , by him i say whether they be things in earth or things in heaven . all then that have the light of righteousness and peace with god , have it from jesus christ , who is therefore termed by the prophet isai. . . the prince of peace , and was represented by melchizedeck king of salem , that is , heb. . . first being by interpretation king of righteousness , and after that also king of salem , which is king of peace , isai. . . of the increase of his governement and peace there shall be no end . . there is the light of spirituall joy , comfort , hope , courage , boldness , and confidence before god , which is derived from jesus christ and no other . we are the circumcision salth the apostle , phil. . . who worship god in the spirit , and rejoyce in christ jesus , and have no confidence in the flesh , rom. . , . for if when we were enemies we were reconciled to god by the death of his son : much more being reconciled we shall be saved by his life . and not only so , but we also joy in god through our lord jesus christ , by whom we have now received the atonement , col. . . which is christ in you the hope of glory , phil. . . if there be any consolation in christ , cor. . . for as the sufferings of christ abound in us , so our consolation also aboundeth by christ , eph. . . in whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him , eph. . , . wherefore remember , that ye being in time passed gentiles in the flesh , that at that time ye were without christ being aliens from the commonwealth of israel , and strangers from the covenants of promise , having no hope , and without god in the world . when they were without christ they had no hope , thes. . . whereby it is evinced that all spirituall joy in god , all the comfort against death and wrath to come , all the courage and boldness and confidence before god , all the hope of the glory of god in which they rejoyce , rom. . . all the spirituall strength they have to endure and do is from christ , phil. . . it is the peace of god which passeth all understanding , which keeps mens hearts and minds through christ jesus , v. . the light of life , as it is termed , john . . the inheritance of the saints in light , col. . . is from christ and him only . john . . and this is the record , that god hath given to us eternall life , and this life is in his son , he that hath the son hath life , and he that hath not the son hath not life . john . . he that believeth on the son hath everlasting life , and he that believeth not the son shall not see life : but the wrath of god abideth on him . rom. . . for the wages of sin is death , but the gift of god is eternall life through jesus christ our lord. rom. . , , for if by one mans offence death reigned by one , much more they which receive abundance of grace , and of the gift of righteousness , shall reign in life by one jesus christ. therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation : even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life , that as sin hath reigned unto death , even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternall life , by jesus christ our lord. cor. . . for as in adam all dye , even so in christ shall all be made alive . acts . . neither is there salvation in any other : for there is none other name under heaven given among men , whereby we must be saved . cor . , . but of him are ye in cerist jesus , who of god is made unto us wisedome and righteousness and sanctification and redemption , that according as it is written , he that glorifieth let him glory in the lord. out of all which we may infer , that all the light of spirituall knowledg , whereby we know the way to god , and understand his will and counsell is from christs irradiation , in whom are hid all the treasures of knowledge and wisdome , col. . . that all our light of peace and amity and favour with god is communicated to us by the appearing of jesus christ in mans horizon , without which there would have been an eclipse of the light of gods countenance for ever , that all our joy in the holy ghost , our everlasting consolation , boldness , courage , and confidence in god is through christ who strengthens us , without which we had been sick unto death for ever ; that our eternall life , glory , salvation , is from christ his resurrection and appearing , without which an everlasting night of torment and horrour had scized on us , we had been in utter darkness , where is nothing but weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth . sect. . christ inlightens gentils as well as jewes with spirituall light . the other sense of the text is , that the light of christ is not confined to the jewes , but extended to the gentiles , that he doth with spirituall light inlighten all sorts and nations of men , according to the prediction of simeon , luke . . mine eyes have seen thy salvation , which thou hast prepared before the face of all people , a light to lighten the gentiles , and the glory of thy people israel . a thing which was much gainsaid by the jewes , who could not brooke it , that the kingdome of god should be taken from them , and given to a nation bringing forth the fruites thereof , as christ speakes , mat. . . for which the chief priests and pharisees sought to lay hands on him , v. . and when paul had made a narration of his converson , and how christ appeared to him and said to him , depart : for i will send thee far hence unto the gentiles , the jewes gave him audience unto this word , and then lift up their voices , and said , away with such a fellow from the earth , for it is not fit that he should live , acts . , . so odious and abominable was the mention of the calling of the gentiles to be the people of god. and yet ( so great was the blindness of the jewes in reading the prophets ) the thing was frequently and plainly foretold by the prophets , isa. . , . behold my servant whom i uphold , mine elect in whom my soul delighteth : i have put my spirit upon him , he shall bring forth judgment unto victory . he shall not fail nor be discouraged , till he have set judgment in the earth , and the yles shall wait for his law , mat. . , , , . i will put my spirit upon him , and he shall shew judgment to the gentiles , and in his name shall the gentiles trust , isai. . . i the lord have called thee in righteousness , and will hold thine hand and will keep thee , and give thee for a covenant of the people for a light of the gentiles to open the blind eyes , to bring out the prisoners from the prison , and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house , isa. . . and he said , it is a light thing that thou shouldst be my servant to raise up the tribes of jacob , and to restore the preserved of israel : i will also give thee for a light to the gentiles , that thou maist be my salvation unto the ends of the earth , from which place simeon seemes to have taken his expression , luke . , . and is alleadged by paul acts . . to that end , isa. . . behold thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not , and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee , because of the lord thy god , and for the holy one of israel , for he hath glorified thee , isa. . , . arise , be enlightned , for the light is come . and the glory of the lord is risen upon thee , and the gentiles shall come to thy light , and kings to the brightness of thy rising . accordingly our lord christ doth often declare himself to be the light of the world not confining his appearing to the jewes only , but as the sun of righteousuess he was to inlighten all nations , john . . then spake jesus again unto them saying , i am the light of the world ; he that followeth me , shall not walk in darkness , but shall have the light of life . john . . as long as i am in the world i am in the light of the world , john . . i am come a light into the world , that whosoever believeth on me should not walk in darkness . whereby the term [ world ] is meant specially the gentiles , as the apostle useth it , rom. . . according to that speech of christ john . , . now is the judgement of this world , now shall the prince of this world be cast out , and i , if i be lifted up from the earth , will draw all men unto me . which thing our lord christ insinuated in the parables of the invitation of all sorts in the high wayes to the marriage of the kings son , mat. . , . and to the great supper , luke . . and the prodigall son , luke . . and more plainly foretold john . . and other sheep i have which are not of this fold : them also i must bring , and they shall my voice , and there shall be one flock and one shepheard . for though our lord christ mat. . . saith , i am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of israel , and commanded his twelve apostles mat. . ; . go not into the way of the gentiles , and into any city of the samaritans enter ye not , but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of israel , yet did he begin to preach to galilee of the gentiles , so that the people which sate in darkness saw great light : and to them which sate in the region and shadow ●f death light was sprung up mat. . , . and when the woman of canaan pleaded for her self and her daughter , that though she were a dog , yet the dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from their masters table , mat. . . jesus answered and said unto her , o woman great is thy faith : be it unto thee even as thou wilt , and our lord christ did preach himself to be christ to a woman of a city of samaria , called sychar , who was thereby brought to believe on him with many of that city , john . . and after his resurrection he gave express commission to his apostles to make disciples of all nations , mat. . . to go into all the world , and to preach the gospell to every creature , mark . . appointing all sorts of disciples to be baptized in all nations , according to which injunction , they went forth and preached every where , the lord working with them , and confirming the word with signes following , v. . and when poter stuck at it to go to the gentiles when cornelius sent to him , god resolves him by a vision and a charge of the spirit with the descent of the spirit upon them , that he bad also to the gentiles granted repentance unto life , acts . . which thing he alleadged in the councell at jerusalem , acts . . when he said , men and brethren , ye know that a good while ago god made choice among us , that the gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel and believe , and god which knoweth the hearts bare them witness , giving them the holy ghost as he did unto us , and put no difference between us and them , purifying their hearts by faith . to whom james assented adding v. , , , . simeon hath declared how god at the first did visit the gentiles to take out of them a people for his name , and to this agree the words of the prophets as it is written , amos . . after this i will returne : and will build again the tabernacle of david , which is fallen down ; and i will build again the ruines thereof , and will set it up , that the residue of men might seek after the lord , and all the gentiles upon whom my name is called , saith the lord , who doth all these things . which thing was also made known to ananias concerning paul , when he was told , that he was a chosen vessel unto him to bear his name before the gentiles , and kings , and the children of israel , acts . . and to paul himself , acts . , . i have appeared to thee , and now send thee to the gentiles to open their eyes , and to turn them from darkness to light , and from the power of satan huto god. whence he took it that the gospel of the uncircumcission was committed to him , gal. . . that he was a teacher of the gentiles in faith and verity , tim. . . which thing he counted his speciall priviledge , eph. . , . unto me who am less then the least of all saints is this grace given that i should preach among the gentiles the unsearchable riches of christ , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( the phrase in the text ) to enlighten all men , or make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery , which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in god , who created all things by jesus christ. hence in the setting down the great mystery of godliness tim. . . this is one chief point , that god was manifested in the flesh preached to the gentiles , and believed on in the world . for which reason it is said tit. . . that the saving grace of god hath appeared or shined to all men , and so christ inlightens every man that cometh into the world with spirituall saving light . sect. . there is not sufficient direction in the acts of gods common providence to lead men to the knowledg of gods grace in christ. how all spirituall light is derived from christ , and how he inlightens all sorts of men with it , hath been shewed before in some measure . yet it is to be observed , that he inlightneth jews and gentiles differently : the jews by his own personall preaching and example , the gentiles by his apostles and the gift of his spirit instead of his personall preaching . there is another way which as i said before , hath been conceived by some , that god vouchsafed to the gentiles before christs comming in the flesh ; and in like manner he doth now to those who never heard the gospell , in an universall calling to the knowledge of his grace in christ by his beneficence and patience towards all men , and by the ordering of the heavens and other creatures in the world , which are objects fit to induce men to enquire after a mediator and the gospel , and that thereby men men might find out that which might lead them to faith , and this hath been styled universall objective grace . against this opinion besides what is before said may be objected . . that it is said acts . . when they heard these things they held their peace and glorified god , saying , then hath god also to the gentiles granted repentance unto life , which shews that they gathered that god had granted repentance unto life to the gentiles , in that the gospel was sent to him , and not by any thing that before was vouchsafed to them ; therefore they judged not that repentance was granted to life by an universall calling , in the view of gods providence before . if any say cornelius was a praying believer before , it is granted . but . he was but a single person , . he was a proselyte of the gate , and came to the knowledg of god , not meerly by use of naturall abilities , but by the law and the prophets , which acquainted him with the promise of christ. if it be said that rom. . . it is said , or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long suffering , not knowing that the goodness of god leadeth thee to repentance , it is granted ; but it doth not follow therefore that the bare observation of gods goodness , patience and forbearance was a sufficient direction to lead them unto repentance unto life , which could not be without the intervention of that mediator and sacrifice , who could not be discerned by that direction alone . . if there had been such a direction to come to god , the mystery of the gospel and the grace of god could not be said to be kept secret since the world began , and made manifest to all nations , then by the scriptures of the prophets , rom. . , . it had not been the hidden wisdome of god in a mystery as it is termed , cor. . . which was from the beginning of the world hid in god , eph. . . from ages and generations , col. . . but had been revealed before by his patience , goodness , and forbearance , and the frame and ordering of the creatures contrary to those texts . if it be said , that the apostle saith rom. . . but i say have they not heard ? yes verily , their sound went into all the earth , and their words unto the end of the word . it is answered , that though the words as they are psal. . . are meant of the motion and illumination of the heavens , yet the apostle by way of allusion makes use of them only to shew that since the apostles preached the gospell , the word of god was made known to all nations for the obedience of faith , as it is , rom. . . and this to be his meaning appears from v , , , . whence the hearing mentioned v. . appears to be of the word of faith by preachers sent , who bring the glad tidings of good things , preach the gospel of peace , and their feet are therefore beautifull . if it be said that col. . . the gospel is said to be preached in every creature under heaven , i grant that the particle in the greek is & , which commonly is translated in , but there it is to be translated to , being redundant , as not only by the use of the phrase mark . . to which it is likely the apostle had reference , but also by the words may appear , sith the gospell preached is said to be heard by them , of which paul was a minister ; and were it to have the sense , which those which read [ in ] would have , it should not be restrained to every creature under heaven , sith in the heavens according to their sense the gospell is as much , if not more , preached , as in every creature under heaven . . if there had been a sufficient direction in the ordering of the creatures , and acts of divine providence to bring us to god , then the counsell of god might have been found out by man if he had used his naturall abilities faithfully and carefully . but the apostle doth expresly deny this , cor. . , , , . saying not only that they have not entered into the heart of man , but also that they are the deep things of god revealed by his spirit , not to be known but by it , as no man knowes the things of man but the spirit of man , that they are freely given of god , and we receive his spirit to make them known to us . . if there had been a sufficient direction in the acts of divine common providence towards all men to lead us to the enquiery and knowledg of gods grace in christ then there had been an universall calling thereby . but the apostle denies mens calling to the communion of gods grace to be universall , cor. . , , . therefore there is not an universall objective grace or sufficient direction in acts of common divine providence to lead us to gods grace . if it be objected that it is said , that the gentiles held the truth in unrighteousness , because that which ought to be known of god was manifest in them , or to them , for god hath shewd it unto them . i answer it is true , and the next v. . shews that if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be to be read , not , what may be known , but what ought to be known of god , as that author would have it , yet v. . it is not said , all that ought to be known of god was revealed to them , not the counsell of gods grace in reconciling them to himself , but only his eternall power and godhead , which are understood by the things that are made , v. . and the evill of some sins and necessity of some duties , rom. . . and that the effect of these is not conversion to god but inexcusableness , rom. . . and . . . if the scripture term those times wherein the gospell was not preached to the gentiles , nor the written law or prophets sent to them the times of ignorance which god winked at or overlooked , and by the apostles then commanded every man every where to repent , suffering all nations in times past to walk in their own wayes then he did not by his acts of common providence sufficiently direct men to attain to his grace . but the antecedent is true , acts . . and . . therefore also the consequent . if it be said that acts . . it is said , nevertheless he left not himself without witness , in that he did good and gave us rain from heaven , and fruitfull seasons filling our hearts with foode and gladness , and acts . . that he giveth to all life and breath and all things , that he made all nations of one bloud , for to dwell on all the face of the earth , and hath deterwined the times before appointed , and the bounds of their habitation , that they should seek the lord , if happily they might seek after him , though he be not farre from every one of us , v. . . it is granted : but it is denied that the thing witnessed thereby , was that gracious and good affection which he beares unto the world through jesus christ , his inclination unto peace with men upon their repentance , as the said pagans debt p. . for those acts of providence do not so much as shew , that by one meanes or other god is taken off from the rigor of his justice and severity of his wrath against sinners , but only that he deferres it ; nor is it true that what is related acts . . is all the evangelicall doctrine preached at lystra by paul , for it is said before v. . that they were at lystra , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 preacbing the gospel . nor is it consequent , that because the apostle faith , heb. . . he that cometh unto god must believe that he is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently him , that therefore this is all the faith or beliefe that the apostles makes simply and absolutely necessary to bring a man unto god , i. e. into grace or favour with him ; nor is it true . for then many of the gentiles had been brought into gods favour without faith in christ contrary to eph. . . john . . acts . . john . , . . if the grace of god given us in christ before the times of ages were manifested by the appearing of christ who abolished death , and brought life and immortality or incorruption to light by the gospel , then it is supposed this grace was not to be seen before . but the former is true tim. . , . therefore also the latter . . if it were so that the acts of gods beneficence acts . . testified his gracious affection unto the world through jesus christ , then we might believe by reasoning without preaching , but that is contrary to rom. . , , . ergo . if there were no more faith absolutely necessary to bring a man to god then the belief of gods being and reward of diligent seeking then a faith short of belief in christ , would purifie the heart and save , yea workes would save ; for such a faith would be accepted only by reason of the workes it produceth . but this takes away the main end of the gospel . which tels us that we are saved by faith not by workes , that all might be of grace , and boasting might be excluded and christ might be all in all , eph. . , , . eph. . . cor. . , , . tim. . , . tit. . , . therefore that opinion is to be rejected as making christianity unnecessary , and morall philosophy sufficient to salvation . sect. . application to move us gentiles to rejoyce in this light , and not to rest on humane reason . as for us christian gentiles it concerns us . to magnifie the rich grace of god in causing the lord christ to come as a light to the gentiles . oh let all that love the salvation of god admire , exult , glorifie god for his mercy as it is written , for this cause will i confess to thee among the gentiles , and sing unto thy name . and again he saith , rejoyce ye gentiles with his people ; and again , praise the lord all ye gentiles , and laud him all ye people ; and again esaias saith , there shall be a root of jesse , and he that shall rise to reign over the gentiles , in him shall the gentiles trust , rom. . , , , . there are a company of bastard christians , or rather hypocriticall atheists risen up . who talk ( i know not whether they believe themselves ) as if every man might be saved in his own religion , or in his own opinion though there be no religion in him , if he live honestly , he of a fair civll debonaier behaviour , though these secretly follow their own lusts , and when it is for their advantage slight rules of justice , and temperance . these count the knowledge of christ , preaching of the gospel , zeal for the purity of gods worship and service and doctrine of christ superfluous , and therefore are so far from magnifying the love of god in sending christ to be a light to the gentiles , that they rather profanely deride the esteem of it , and hate those preachers and zealous christians , who earnestly urge men to follow the light of christ , as an eyesore to them , disquieting and vexing them , who mind only their own pleasure and profit , and would not be disturbed by any discourse of god , or christ , heaven or hell , or judgment to come ; were such persons sensible of the state of the world afore christs comming in the flesh , the barbarous rudeness , the abominable idolatry , the horrible cruelty , the beastly uncleanness , the notorious perfidiousness that the best of those nations were inured to , they would prize more the light of christ , and preaching of the gospell . however it be with such as are either naturally or voluntarily blind , or judicially blinded , so as the light of the glorious gospell of jesus christ doth not shine unto them , yet you who have been once enlightned , and have tasted of the good gift of god , and of the powers of the world to come , methinks should take heed how you let the relish of gods goodness , and memory of his loving kindness in giving christ to be your light , be lost . we may justly , and should if we were sensible of our benefit have a new song in our mouths , even a song of thanksgiving to our god , and joyn in comfort with the prophet our praecentor isa. . . sing o barren thou that didst not bear , break forth into singing , and cry aloud thou that didst not travel with child : for more are the children of the desolate gentiles then the children of the married wife the people of the jewes . . it concerns us to take heed how we doate on our own reason , or the most exact writers of morality , or the most perfect patterns of civility and ingenuity , and neglect the light which christ hath brought into the world . there is a good use to be made of the writings of the gentile philosophers , orators , poets , historians : i am not so severe , as some ancient councils were , utterly to forbid the reading of their books : no not to the younger students if they read them with a christian eye , and a sound judgment , which is to be an index expurgatorius of many passages in them : yet if men rest there and be inamoured on them and prefer them , as politian did , before the gospell , they may justly expect to be lashed by god , as one of the fathers is said to be for his inordinate affection and immoderate delight in ciceroes works . i would not altogether forbid society with ingenious , civill , and morall men : there may be much good behaviour learned from them . but if we converse with them , and not with the children of the light , if we conforme our selves to this world , and be not transformed in the renewing of our minds , that we may know what that good acceptable and perfect will of god is in christ , if we behold not with open face as in a glass the glory of the lord , nor are changed into the same image from glory to glory even as by the spirit of the lord , cor. . . we may be amiable to men , but not lovely in gods eyes , we may win mens applause , but shall loose gods favour . let us be wise therefore so to use candles that we do not burn day-light , i mean that we so make use of all the reason , and humane wisedome and virtue we have our selves , or discern in others writings or examples , that yet we chiefly eye and follow the grand light the sun of righteousness the lord jesus learning him , by studying the great counsell of god which he revealed and denying our selves take up our cross and follow him as his disciples . christ is to be chosen and followed as our light. serm. ix . containing an exhortation to use christ as our light. joh. . . that was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world . the principal use of all i have said is , that you may be induced to embrace and follow the lord christ as the great light of the world . besides the evidence out of holy scripture , to prove him to have been sent from god a light into the world , the accomplishment of what he foretold , the success of his errand which he declared with the great wisdome and holiness in all his sayings and doings , do amply confirm it . it is true , among the gentile philosophers there was light , but it was dimme ; there was light in the law , but it was imperfect ; no light which is truly such is to be rejected , yet in comparison of the light of christ , it was but darkness . philosophers light guided men well in some things , in most did lead men into crooked and dangerous wayes ; in the true worship of god they were wholly dark . the teachers of the law did teach many things aright about gods being , works , worship ; but in the great business of reconciling man to god , erecting the kingdome of heaven , and the coming of the messiah to judgement , were as blinde as moles . no man hath ascended up to heaven , but he that came down from heaven , even the son of man being in heaven , joh. . . no man hath seen god at any time , the only begotten son which is in the bosome of the father he hath declared him , joh. . . compare gospel precepts and promises with the most accurate sayings of any other writers not divinely inspired , and you will finde the former exceed the later in wisdome and truth , as much as gold doth lead ; or bread , acornes . indeed the things are such as none but a holy person would declare , they are so opposite to sin and ungodliness , specially when they did inevitably exasperate mens rage , and procure persecution unto death . they are such as none could declare but he that came from god ; they are so agreeable to what the prophets and holy men of old delivered ; so much advancing gods glory ; overthrowing satans kingdome ; and leading men to god : the predictions of things to come concerning ; himself , his apostles , the preaching of the gospel throughout the world , the persecutions of his disciples , the propagating of his church , the destruction of jerusalem , the giving of the holy ghost , his death , resurrection , ascension , the dispossessing satan of his empire in the world , the conversion of the gentiles ; which are all accomplished , besides many other things not yet finished , but yet in fieri , in doing ( of which the things already done , besides the signes of the nearness of their accomplishment , do give firm assurance ) do make infallible proof of christs being that true light which enlightens the world . nicodemus , though one of that sect which most envied his repute , yet was forced to tell him , rabbi , we know thou art a teacher come from god , for no man can do these miracles that thou dost , except god be with him , ioh. . . the devil hath attempted to raise some up , who might as christs apes make shew of doing such things as christ and his apostles did ; but their imposture hath quickly appeared . neither julian , nor the iewes of the first ages , nor other adversaries of christ , though great impugners of christianity , could ever evince any falshood in the evangelists relations of christ and his acts . the witnesses of them though persons of understandidg and intergrity , laid down their lives in testimony of them , notwithstanding the sorest tortures used to force them to a denial , in spight of all the practices of the devil ; yet the preaching of christ crucified , prevailed to pull down the idols of the nations , and to bring in a sort the known world to the obedience of the faith . though the lewes contradicted and blasphemed , the roman emperours raged , lucian jeered , libanius wrangled , julian calumniated , papists corrupt , gnosticks , hereticks , fanaticks , quakers , adulterate and cloud the truth of christ , they do but piss against the sun ; the light of christs doctrine , the truth of the gospel , doth and will shine forth : nor can all the cavils of modern atheists , or the dust raised by new phantastiques , take away the brightness of christs light , or hinder its enlightening from others then themselves . and shall we after all the arguments given of christs being the true light , follow after ignes fatuos , under pretence of new light ? what real comfort , or spiritual help to holiness , or heavenly directions , do they give to lead men to god , better then christ hath done ? may you not discern a vain-glorious spirit , a self-seeking , proud , carnal spirit in them ? what do their censures of others shew , but a minde to extoll themselves ? their reviling , but their disturbed passions , and impatience of gainfaying ? their affected speech , looks , carriage , but a desire to hide their falshood , and to insinuate into the affections of those unwary souls , whom they would ensnare ? what do all the devices of jesuits , popes , and their agents tend to , but either by force or subtility to set up the monstrous power of the man of sin , and their own domineeting over mens consciences under him ? what is there in their conclave but policy ? in their council of treat but deceit ? in their iesuits and casuists but juggling ? have not the jansenists proved them so versatile in their determinations , as to make their resolutions such as might fit all humours ? what is there but fraud in their doctrine and practice , about keeping faith with hereticks , deposing , destroying princes excommunicate by the pope , equivocating answers upon oath with mental reservations ? and shall we go after such masters , and leave christ ? remember we that one is our master , even christ , mat. . . and when any shall sollicite us , either not to adhere to christ as our teacher , be it under pretence of being christs infallible vicar ; or not to read or hear his gospel preached , be it under pretence of a sufficient light within them , or a new revelation ; reject them . forget not that christ hath warned you , that if any shall say unto you , lo here is christ or there , believe it not , mat. . . say as paul , gal. . . if any man or angel preach any other gospel then is taught , by christ , let him be accursed . we will not venture our lives upon mountebanks , and will we venture our souls upon deceivers ? shall we follow our own conceits which so often prove foolish , and neglect christs doctrine which alwayes proves wise and safe ? no , no , let us answer as peter did for the rest of the apostles , lord to whom shall we go , thou hast the words of eternal life , and we believe and are sure that thou art that christ the son of the living god , ioh. . , . oh that i could finde your mindes so established in the truth , so armed against all the wily methods of the devil , so instructed in the truth , that you may not be as children tossed to and fro , and carried about with every winde of doctrine , by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness ; whereby they lie in wait to deceive ; but speaking or seeking the truth in love , may grow up into him in all things , which is the head even christ , eph. . , . alas ! what can we expect , but if we follow blinde leaders ( as all are that teach the things of god , otherwise then christ and his apostles did ) we should fall with them into the ditch , into everlasting perdition ? on the other side , there is so much plain and clear light in christ his doctrine , as will guide our feet into the way of peace . away then with all such obtruded or insinuating teachers , us endeavour to hide from us the light of christ shining in his doctrine , recorded in scripture . let the word of christ dwell richly in us in all wisdome , col. . . let 's say as that blessed martyr did , none but christ , none but christ : that christ which preached , died at hierusalem , that word of his which is written in my bible , shall be my light , to the testimony of iesus , to his everlasting gospel i stick ; if men speak not according to it , it is because there is no light in them , isaiah . . to this end it will concern you to take with you , and observe these directions . . to take heed of false lights , under what disguise soever they come . the lord christ foretold his disciples , mat. . . that there should arise false christs , and false prophets , and should shew great signs and wonders , insomuch that ( if it were possible ) they should deceive the very elect ; concerning whom he saith , vers. . if any man shall say unto you , lo here is christ or there , believe it not . of these he had forewarned christians , mat. . . beware of false prophets , which come to you in sheepes cloathing , but inwardly they are ravening wolves . paul had foretold , act. . , . that after his departing , grievous wolves should enter in among them , not sparing the flock ; and that of the ephesian christians , themselves should men arise , speaking perverse things , to draw away disciples after them ; and thereupon warns the ephesian elders to take heed to themselves and to the flock , over which the holy ghost had made them overseers , vers. . paul tels the corinthians , cor. . , . of false apostles , deceitfull workers , transforming themselves into the apostles of christ ; and no marvel , for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light . and of such he admonisheth the romans , i beseech you brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences , contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned , and avoid them ; for they that are such , serve not our lord jesus christ , but their own belly , and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple , rom. . , . peter also tells , pet. . . that there were false prophets also among the people , even as there shall be false teachers among christians , who privily should bring in damnable heresies , denying the lord that bought them . ioh. . . and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come , even now there are many antichrists . ioh. . . beloved believe not every spirit , but try the spirits , whether they are of god , because many false prophets are gone out into the world . all which passages do demonstrate the great danger of christians being beguiled by deceivers , who are cunning in transforming themselves , as their master satan doth , into angels of light , that they may seem ministers of righteousness . wherefore it concerns all such as regard the safety of their souls , not to be facile in entertaining such as pretend to hold forth light , but to examine what they suggest , and to try afore they trust . to which end it will be needfull , . that we be of discerning spirits , to know the disposition of persons that pretend light ; whether they be proud , arrogant , self-seeking , vain-glorious , covetous , more vehement then considerate , obsequious for advantages , but otherwise wilfull . . concerning their proceedings ; whether they deal with the weakest , afore they argue with the ablest ; whether they affect more shew of holiness , then proof of doctrine ; whether they love not to conceal their opinions , till they have ensnared men , by raising a high esteem of their persons ; whether they practise not to disparage others , that they may engross the esteem and affections of men ; whether they be not much in talk , little in deed . these and many more enquiries may much prevent the deceits of those , that with feigned words make merchandize of weak souls . but . the chief way is to try what they obtrude upon us by the scripture . such owles will not endure this light ; but as tertullian terms them , they are lucifuga scripturarum , they fly the light of the scripture , and endeavour to make odious the teachers of it . if they cannot prevail to keep it from men in a strange language , they will corrupt it with false glosses ; if they cannot suppress preachers , they will render them suspected or infamous ; if they cannot shut out the light of scripture and preaching , they will set something else in competition with it , as the authority of the church , a council , pope , tradition , light within each , or some other thing , to hide the light from shining forth . therefore it chiefly concerns men in these times , wherein men are exceeding busie to pervert , and thereby to darken the truth , to be very diligent and circumspect in examining by the scripture what they hear ; their doctrine is the fruit by which false prophets are to be known , mat. . , . if they speak not according to the scripture , it is because there is no light in them , is. . . . use should be made of the ministers appointed to teach us by him , who ascended up on high , and gave gifts to men , apostles , prophets , evangelists , pastors , and teachers , for the perfecting of the saints , and edifying of the body of christ , that we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro , and carried about with every winde of doctrine , by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive ; but speaking the truth in love , may grow up in all things unto him , who is the head even christ , eph. . , , , . certainly nothing more prevents the practices of deceivers , then learning from a solid ministry , and associating with sober and stable christians . . to move us to make use of christ as the true light , it is necessary that we should become sensible of our own darkness . if ye were blinde saith christ , joh. . . ye should have no sin , but now ye say we see , therefore your sin remaineth . because thou faist i am rich and encreased with goods , and have need of nothing , and knowest not that thou art wretched , and miserable , and blinde , and naked , i counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire , that thou maist be rich , and white raiment , that thou maist be clothed , and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear , and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve , that thou maist see , rev. . , . they that apprehend a light within them without christ , are incurably blind ; such fond imaginations lock men fast up under invincible ignorance . as he said , that to be incredulous is the sinews of wisdome ; so may i say , that to be jealous of our own darkness , is the readiest way to drive us to christ the true light . experience will tell us , that they who talk as if they knew as much as preachers can tell them , are found when tried , the most ignorant sots ; and those who are so well conceited of their own strength and wisdome , as to count the counsel and warning of others unnecessary , bidding them not care for them , are soon caught by cunning deceivers . to become a wise improver of christs light , it is of great moment to discern our own blindeness ; and then a christian learns most , when he findes his own ignorance . such sense of our own emptiness , begets an appetite to wholesome doctrine ; when such as conceive themselves full , have no stomack to the most precious truths of iesus christ , but are filled with windy vanities . . it concerns those to whom the light of christ is held forth not to shut their eyes against it when held before them . for this saith our lord , joh. . , . is the condemnation that light is come into the world , and men loved darkness rather then light , because their deeds were evill . for every one that doth evill hateth the light , neither cometh to the light , lest his deeds should be reproved . and indeed it is the signe of a man that is filthy and resolved to be filthy , of a man incurable and marked to destruction , who shuns that light which should direct him to discerne his errour and to learn his way . nor can there be a greater indignity to christ then when he is come into the world to be one light to have our minds possessed with a resolution not to receive it . . if the light shine into thy soul from christ , so as that any convictions or discoveries of truth from christ get into thee , take heed that thou hold it not in unrighteousness nor seek to quench it . the wrath of god , saith the apostle rom. . . is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men that hold the truth in unrighteousness . where lust imprisons light : where corrupt affections put out the lamp of truth there is no entrance of the light of christ into that soul. . the light must be believed , as our lord christ saith , john . . while we have light we are to believe in the light , that we may be children of light . believing the words of christ is indeed the reception of christ as our light . when we entertain the gospell of christ , we do behold with open face as through a glass the glory of the lord , and are transformed into the same image from glory to glory as by the spirit of the lord , cor. . . the more steddily we eye christ the more assimilated we shall be to him . his doctrine will fashion our minds , his example will direct our practise , so as that in a good sense we shall be christed with christ , he will be in us and we in him , one with us and we with him , not we live , but christ live in us . faith is the loadstone of the soul which drawes the soul to christ , and makes a man to be as he was in this world crucified , risen , ascending up with him , dead to the world , living unto god. . there must be a love of the light , it s the greatest sign of a man willfully evill when he hates the light , and its a good sign of a man truly good , when he can delight in that light which discovers his own evils . christ hath therefore determined this to be the great condemnation , that men love darkness rather then light : for that 's the sign they side with the prince of darkness , and that men that do the truth come to the light , that their deeds may be manifest that they are wrought in god , john . , , . the more light is rejected the more purely voluntary any sin is , when men are willingly ignorant they are incurably evill ; but the more love and delight there is in the light of truth the more freely it is chosen , and more fully imbraced . light is a most delightfull quality , unless it be to illaffected eyes , and so is truth to all but such as are of vitiated spirits : the more heavenly the light is , the more pure , and so the truth of christ the lord from heaven is the clearest truth and most amiable . moses gave a law , but in shadowes ; christ the only begotten son which is in the bosome of the father he hath declared god , and his will without obseurity : he was full of grace and truth , then which nothing is more lovely , and therefore the more the averseness is from the gospel of christ the more estrangedness there is from the life of god , and the more the light of christ is entertained , the more of the love of god dwels in that person . . that a man have light from christ it is needfull he should awake out of sleep , eph. . . a careless soul that 's heedless of what truth is held forth , that snorts securely , and dreams sweetly of peace when there is no peace is no more capable of benefit by the light of christ , then a man that 's of a drousie sleepy head , that folds his hands , and mindes nothing but his bed and pillow . of using bodily light , not only sore eyes , but also drousie heads are offended with light . watching is necessary to the use of christian light , which being neglected , the prince of darkness easily bindes the hands and shaves the hair as dalilah did sampsons , which makes his strength depart from him . to keep our soules safe it is needfull we keep our eyes waking , and to pray with the psalmist , lighten mine eyes that i sleep not the sleep of death , ps. . . . to this must be joyned standing up from the dead , eph. . . graves and vaults for dead bodies are not fit receptacles of light : to be among men who have no spirituall life in their soules , to be associated with meer carnall worldlings , voluptuous epicures , proud selfish men is as inconsistent with the injoyment of the light of christ , as for a seeing man to lye among the dead , which are cut off from gods hand . a child of light will have little but darkness from such unholy soules as are full of darkness , yea doubtless such company will by their own reasonings , and satans sophistry blow out the light of christ that it shine not where they are . hence it is that among such persons all discoveries of sin or duty , gods counsell or covenant , christ and his church , heaven and hell are tedious : no talk , or action among such is more acceptable then that which proceeds from an earthly spirit . scripture truth , holy sermons , spirituall experiences are unsuitable to that mirth they delight in , those contents that please them , those ends they aim at . whence it is that they put out that light , which crosseth their designes , and wish that neither god did see them , nor christ judg them , nor preachers teach them , nor any saint converse with them . doubtless then a soul that affects these cannot long endure such quench-coales , nor joyn with such extinguishers , but as he is made a child of light so chooseth to be with them in whom is light . . it will concerne those who own christ as their light to judg themselves and their wayes by his light . it is the great benefit of light that it doth not make manifest , eph. . . and thus by the light of christ the evill of our wayes is reproved , the wayes of god approved : we know the righteousness of god , and our unrighteousness . now this is no small benefit to have light to discerne our own errors , which without light from christ we should never have unstood . it is our advantage that god covers our sins , and we discover them . he that is ignorant of them cannot correct them : but walks on in them without shame or sorrow , as a man that walks in the night neither sees how foul his cloathes are , nor knowes how to make them clean . hence it comes to pass that for want of light the carriage of most is so unhandsome and unlike the gospell that they not only shame themselves , but also cause others to stumble . a wise christian therefore will be often judging himself by the light of law discovering his transgressions , and the light of the gospel shewing his estate in christ. . it will be needfull not only to use the light of christ to judg our selves by , but also to order our actions by . i am the light of the world saith christ , john . . be that followeth me shall not walk in darkness . there cannot be unsafe walking by christs light : there is no danger when christ our light goes before . walk in the light saith christ while ye have the light lest darkness come upon you , john . . how many millions are there of soules perplexed and tortured all their life with feares and doubts for want of walking by the light of christ in scripture , and chosing rather to walk by a light and sparkes of their own kindling , which in the end either goes quite out or burnes so dimme as to leave them in darkness of spirit and horrour of conscience . and no marvell sith it is gods just judgment , that such as neglect the light preached should follow the mares of humane reason , the examples , customes , dictates of men , and in conclusion lye down in sorrow , isai. . . such foolish fires will lead to nothing but bogs and praecipices : but christ the true light when his gospell is followed guides the feet of men into the way of peace , luke . . oh that then all that talke of the light within them would follow the light about them , even the light of christs gospel and example , whereby the greatest security is obtained and the surest advancement with god , sith he that followes christ his light shall be where he is . then would men walk honestly or decently in good fashion , not in banquetings and drunkennesses , not in chamberings and wantonnesses , not in strife and envying , if they would put on the lord jesus christ , and not make provision of the flesh unto lusts , rom. . , . . the light of christ is to be used as our weapons or tooles to defend our selves or to work with . the night is over , the day hath approached : let us therefore put off the workes of darkness , and put on the armour of light , rom. . . the truth is , light is the chiefest instrument for safety and work . if a man be without light he can neither defend himself nor offend an enemy . if any man walk in the day he stumbleth not because he seeth the light of this world . but if a man walk in the night he stumbleth , because there is no light in him , saith christ john . , . i must work the works of him that sent me while it is day , the night cometh , when no man can work , john . . as the bodily light is given us by god to fight and work , so spirituall light is given us by christ to fight the good fight of christ , and to do the workes of god. he then that would make use of christs light must be armed with his doctrine , that he may be able to repel satans fiery darts , and expel him as christ did by the sword of the spirit which is the word of god , eph. . . and he that would improve the light must be doing that business which the word of christ directs him to , and to that end it must dwell richly in him in all wisedome , col. . . their own light in men makes them rather wranglers with others sometimes the best ( as is seen in quakers ) then contenders against their own lusts , and moves them to disturb others in their work , and to be busie bishops in anothers diocese , rather then to lookinto their own charge : but the light of christ directs us to steddy to be quiet and do our own business , thess. . . . and lastly , make use of the light of christ for thy comfort and rejoycing . the light of the eyes rejoyceth the heart , prov. . . truly the light is sweet , and a pleasant thing it is to behold the sun , eecl . . . but the light of christ his gospel doth far more rejoyce the heart , and is much more delightfull to the soul then bodily light can be to the eyes . it is it which removes doubts , griefs , fears , despair in life and at death . oh how sweetly might men live , how comfortably might they dye , if they did make use of it ? light within you whatever quakers tell you will leave you in perplexity , when you shall have most need of comfort . but if you believe in the light of christ as it is held out to you in the gospel you shall see the light of life . be perswaded to disclaime the pretended new light within you as your sufficient guide to god , and choose the light of christ from heaven in his gospel to walk by , and it will guide and comfort you surely and sweetly to eternal life . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e pet. . . cor. . . cor. . . a supplement to the serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy; published october . in, first, some consideration of the oath of allegiance. secondly, vindicating of the consideration of the oaths of the kings supremacy and allegiance, from the exceptions of richard hubberthorn, samuel fisher, samuel hodgkin, and some others against them, in the points of swearing in some case, and the matters of those oaths. by john tombes b.d. tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) a supplement to the serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy; published october . in, first, some consideration of the oath of allegiance. secondly, vindicating of the consideration of the oaths of the kings supremacy and allegiance, from the exceptions of richard hubberthorn, samuel fisher, samuel hodgkin, and some others against them, in the points of swearing in some case, and the matters of those oaths. by john tombes b.d. tombes, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by henry hills, living in aldersgate-street next door to the sign of the peacock, london : [ ] a reply to "antichristianism reproved, and the doctrine of christ and his apostles justified against swearing" by richard hubberthorn, "supplementum sublatum" by richard hubberthorn and samuel fisher, and "a caution to the sons of sion" by samuel hodgkin. imprint date from wing. annotation on thomason copy: "march d". reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng hubberthorn, richard, - -- antichristianism reproved, and the doctrine of christ and his apostles justified against swearing. fisher, samuel, - . hodgkin, samuel. -- caution to the sons of sion. oaths -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - pip willcox sampled and proofread - pip willcox text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a supplement to the serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy ; published october . in , first , some consideration of the oath of allegiance . secondly , vindicating of the consideration of the oaths of the kings supremacy and allegiance , from the exceptions of richard hubberthorn , samuel fisher , samuel hodgkin , and some others against them , in the points of swearing in some case , and the matters of those oaths . by john tombes b. d. mat. . . render therefore to caesar the things tbat are caesars , and to god the things that are gods. london , printed by henry hills , living in aldersgate-street next door to the sign of the peacock . to the christian readers . i need not tell you again what may be seen in my epistle to the readers before my book of the serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy , how i was induced to compose and publish it , conceiving it to be a work of charity , to others , and a necessary duty to my self , as circumstances then concurred . i have found not a little fruit of my labor therein , by satisfying many that i know , and more ( as i am told ) whom i know not , of the lawfulness of taking such oaths , as are therein asserted , and thereby preventing the ruine of themselves and families ; though i find by the opposition of some , that it hath proved an offence to others , insomuch that i was told , that i had thereby given occasion of the alienation of many hundreds from me , of whose peace and welfare i was , and still am , very tender . besides , what exceptions have been made in private conference , ( which i have in such conferences endeavoured to remove ) richard hubberthorn , samuel fisher , and some others , have in print opposed that writing . richard hubberthorn intitles his writing , antichristianism reproved , as if my book had contained antichristianism : which is a term that affrights many weak christians , and is therefore by those that craftily endeavour to uphold , and further divisions put upon those actions , doctrines and writings , which they would scare less discerning souls from , and so separate them from others , and fasten them to their party , though it be for the most part but a frivolous imputation , and a gross calumny . antichristianism according to the apostle john , ( who only of all the holy writers , useth the term antichrist ) being a greater matter then some errors , or evil in some points of practice , to wit , a denial of the father and the son , john . , . not confessing jesus christ come in the flesh , john . , . john . of which sort my defending the lawfulness of some swearing is not . and to omit his nonsense , in saying , the doctrine of christ and his apostles is justified against swearing , meaning my doctrine of swearing , where he saith , that it is there proved according to the scriptures , that all my six propositions for the lawfulness of swearing , are both against christ and his apostles doctrine ; it must needs be false , sith he hath not brought any scriptures against the three last propositions . as for his epistle to me , that which he insinuates by his expostulations with me , of dividing my self from mine own people , of teaching people to swear first one way , and then another ; of my being long a hiding my self under so many false covers , is the foam and froth of his railing spirit ; of which he , and others of the quakers , seem by their frequent venting reproaches , unjust censurings and revilings , to have gotten an habit , and are more like antichristianism , then any of my doctrines , who preach not up that which christ and his apostles deny , but endeavour to clear their words from mistake . nor was my writing indigested , as if god did not brook it , though i confessed , in respect of the composure of it , there was want of such accurate digesting , that is , framing in respect of words , method and matter , as the thing required , by reason of my shortness of time , and yet there was no cause for samuel fisher to term it a toy , as he doth in the margin of his epistle to the reader , before his impetuous , though impotent book , intitled the rusticks alarm to the rabbies , so terming dr. owen , mr. danson , mr. richard baxter , and my self . i confess i had an intention ( and began to draw up a writing to that purpose ) to publish a fuller treatise about swearing , having in catechetical lectures , somewhat largely handled the general nature of an oath , the several forms and rites of swearing , the lawfulness of swearing , the sorts of oaths , the rules , obligation , urging , dispensation of oaths : but my late continual molestations , imprisonment , restraint from my ministery in the place where i was seated thirty years before , and the uncertainty of my dwelling , have hindred me from prosecuting thereof , and other works , which i hoped to accomplish for publique good : nor am i yet secured from the like molestation and uncertainties , and therefore know not what i shall do , or resolve to do therein . wherefore i have , being requested thereto , published this little supplement , whereby my aim is to benefit others , though i find ( as i have always done ) the cleering of truth in this , to have occasioned many hard censures of me , and much injury to me , which the lord forgive . yet i hope i shall truly say with the apostle , cor. . . and i will very gladly spend and be spent for you , though the more i love you , the less i be loved . as for those that find any benefit by my labors in this matter , or any other , i request them that they would return thanks to god for it ; and that all would in their prayers to god for me , help me , who am their brother and servant in christ , john tombes . london , march . . the oath of obedience in the act for discovery and repressing popish recusants , . of jac. c. . commonly called the oath of allegiance . iab . doe truly and sincerely acknowledge , profess , testifie and declare in my conscience before god and the world ; that our soveraign lord king james , is lawful and rightful king of this realm , and of all other his majesties dominions and countries ; and that the pope , neither of himself , nor by any authority of the church or see of rome , or by any other means with any other , hath any power or authority , to depose the king , or to dispose any of his majesties kingdomes or dominions , or to authorize any forrein prince to invade or annoy him , or his countries , or to discharge any of his subjects of their allegiance and obedience to his majesty , or to give licence or leave to any of them to bear arms , raise tumults , or to offer any violence or hurt to his majesties royal person , state or government , or to any of his majesties subjects within his majesties dominions . also i do swear from my heart , that notwithstanding any declaration or sentence of excommunication or deprivation made or granted , or to be made or granted by the pope or his successors , or by any authority , derived , or pretended to be derived from him or his see , against the said king , his heirs or successors , or any absolution of the said subjects from their obedience : i will bear faith and true allegiance to his majesty , his heirs and successors , and him and them will defend to the uttermost of my power , against all conspiracies and attempts whatsoever , which shall be made against his or their persons , their crown and dignity , by reason or colour of any such sentence or declaration , or otherwise , and will do my best endeavour to disclose , and make known unto his majesty , his heirs and successors , all treasons and traiterous conspiracies , which i shall know or hear of , to be against him or any of them . and i do further swear , that i do from my heart abhor , detest and abjure as impious and heretical , this damnable doctrine and position , that princes which be excommunicated or deprived by the pope , may be deposed or murthered by their subjects , or any other whatsoever . and i do believe , and in conscience am resolved , that neither the pope , nor any person whatsoever , hath power to absolve me of this oath , or any part thereof , which i acknowledge by good and full authority , to be lawfully ministred unto me , and do renounce all pardons and dispensations to the contrary . and all these things i do plainly and sincerely acknowledge and swear , according to these express words by me spoken , and according to the plain and common sense , and understanding of the same words , without any equivocation , or mental evasion , or secret reservation whatsoever . and i do make this recognition and acknowledgement heartily , willingly and truly , upon the true faith of a christian . so help me god. the words of king james in his apology for the oath of allegiance , p. , &c. in his answer to cardinal bellarmine's letter . as the oath of supremacy was devised for putting a difference between papists , and them of our profession : so was this oath [ of allegiance ] which bellarmine would seem to impugn , ordained for making a difference between the civilly obedient papists , and the perverse disciples of the powder-treason . in king henry the eighths time was the oath of supremacy first made : by him were thomas moor and roffensis put to death , partly for refusing of it . from his time till now , have all the princes of this land , professing this religion , successively in effect maintained the same : and in that oath only is contained the kings absolute power to be judge over all persons , as well civil as ecclesiastical ; excluding all forrein powers and potentates to be judges within his dominions : whereas this last made oath containeth no such matter , only medling with the civil obedience of subjects to their soveraign in meer temporal causes . and that the injustice as well as the errour of bellarmine's gross mistaking in this point , may yet be more clearly discovered ; i have also thought good to insert here immediately after the oath of supremacy , the contrary conclusions to all the points and articles , whereof this other late oath doth consist : whereby it may appear , what unreasonable and rebellious points he would drive my subjects unto , by refusing the whole body of that oath , as it is conceived . for he that shall refuse to take this oath , must of necessity hold all or some of these propositions following . . that i king james am not the lawful king of this kingdom , and of all other my dominions . . that the pope by his own authority may depose me . if not by his own authority , yet by some other authority of the church , or of the see of rome . if not by some other authority of the church and see of rome , yet by other means with others help he may depose me . . that the pope may dispose of my kingdoms and dominions . . that the pope may give authority to some forrein prince to invade my dominions . . that the pope may discharge my subjects of their obedience and allegiance to me . . that the pope may give licence to one or more of my subjects to bear arms against me . . that the pope may give leave to my subjects to offer violence to my person , or to my government , or to some of my subjects . . that if the pope shall by sentence excommunicate or depose me , my subjects are not to bear faith and allegiance to me . . if the pope shall by sentence excommunicate or depose me , my subjects are not bound to defend with all their power , my person and crown . . if the pope shall give out any sentence of excommunication or deprivation against me , my subjects by reason of that sentence , are not bound to reveal all conspiracies and treasons against me , which shall come to their hearing and knowledge . . that it is not heretical and detestable to hold , that princes being excommunicated by the pope , may be either deposed or killed by their subjects , or any other . . that the pope hath power to absolve my subjects from this oath , or from some part thereof . . that this oath is not administred to my subjects , by a full and lawful authority . . that this oath is to be taken with equivocation , mental evasion , or secret reservation ; and not with the heart and good will sincerely , in the faith of a christian man. these are the true and natural branches of the body of this oath . in the book intitled [ god and the king ] imprinted at london , . by king james his special priviledge and command , p. . is thus said . the matter or main subject of this oath , which is the principal thing whereof i conceive you desire to have a more distinct and full understanding , may to this purpose be resolved into these ensuing assertions . . our soveraign lord king james , is the lawful king of this kingdom , and of all other his majesties dominions and countries . . the pope neither by his own authority , nor by any other authority of the church , or of the see of rome , nor by any other means , with any others help can depose his majesty . . the pope cannot dispose of any of his majesties kingdoms and dominions . . the pope cannot give authority to any forraign prince to invade his dominions . . the pope cannot discharge his subjects of their allegiance unto his majesty . . the pope cannot give licence to one or more of his subjects to bear arms against him . . the pope cannot give leave to any of his subjects to offer violence unto his royal person , or to his government , or to any of his majesties subjects . . although the pope shall by sentence excommunicate or depose his majesty , or absolve his subjects from their obedience , notwithstanding they are to bear faith and true allegiance unto his majesty . . if the pope shall by sentence excommunicate or depose his majesty ; nevertheless his subjects are bound to defend his person and crown against all attempts and conspiracies whatsoever . . if the pope shall give out any sentence of excommunication or deprivation against his majesty ; notwithstanding his subjects are bound to reveal all conspiracies and treasons against his majesty , which shall come to their hearing and knowledge . . it is heretical and detestable to hold , that princes being excommunicate by the pope , may be deposed or murthered by their subjects , or any other . . the pope hath not power to absolve his majesties subjects from their oath of allegiance , or any part thereof . when cardinal bellarmine disguised under the name of matthaeus tortus , as his chaplain took upon him to reply to king james his apology for the oath of allegiance , and would have it believed , that by that oath was intended the denying the popes ecclesiastical power , which he claims , and is with papists an article of their faith ; lancelot andrews then bishop of chichester , after of ely and winchester , then very eminent for his learning and repute at court , answers him in his book intitled tortura torti , in words in latin , which i have englished thus . art thou well in thy wits who babblest these things ? that thou an italian , ignorant of our language , shouldst understand the oath , that the author who is skilled in the language , as being his own , native , proper , should not understand it ? whence art thou to us a new interpreter of laws ? yea whence art thou an interpreter of our laws , which thou didst not make ? it belongs verily to them to interpret to whom it belongs to make laws ; yet i say not that only , but this also . is there for this reason any mortal man that understands the intention of the law , and the law-maker himself , ( for the same person was author of the law and of the book , nor wast thou ignorant of this ) the law-maker ( i say ) himself , should not understand his intention concerning his law ? thou wilt never bring it to pass , that he should be ignorant of that which he himself would to himself , when he made the law , when he made the oath . he is best privy to his own intention . but his intention was that he might be secure of the fidelity and constancy of his own subjects , yea this was his only intention , no other man knows this , ( for the hearts of men he knows not ) only he who hath known the law , knows what he requires in his law. king james in his catalogue of tortus lies , at the end of his premonition to all christian princes , saith , the puritans do not decline the oath of supremacy , but do daily take it , neither ever refused it . and the same supremacy is defended by calvin himself , instit . lib. . cap. . bishop andrews in the book forenamed , p. . the puritans of their own accord take the oath of supremacy , and have often professed , and that in books published by themselves , that this is a meer calumny , that they abhor the oath of supremacy , neither did they ever decline that oath . but if there were at any time any scraple in them , it was about the term , it was not about the thing . the head of the church sith it is said of christ , seemed to them a higher title , then that it might be given to any mortal man : so for a while they stuck at the giving that title , now they stick not : concerning the thing it self , concerning the kingly authority they have always fully professed . quakers do inveigh against my book , intitled a serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy , because it defends the lawfulness of some swearing , yet samuel fisher in his book , intitled the rusticks alarm to the rabbies , exercit. . chap. . p. . saith , i should ( god knows ) please my self much more to sit down in silence . p. . i affirm here before god and all men ; and the humble petition of some called anabaptists , prisoners in maidstone , dated january . saith thus ; yet ( god is our witness , who is the searcher of all hearts ) we deny not this oath , because we would not yield due subjection and obedience unto thee and thy authority ; for this we say , in the presence of him that shall judge the quick and the dead , we do without any deceit , promise to live peaceably under thy government , and in case any thing should be by thee commanded in spiritual matters , wherein we cannot obey , we shall not then take up any carnal or temporal weapon against thee or thy authority , but patiently suffer such punishment as shall be inflicted on us for our consciences . but the using of these speeches [ god knowes , i affirm before god , god is our witness , this we say in the presence of him that shall judge the quick and dead ] as an appeal to gods contestation , is plain swearing . so that while these men , and more of the same mind do speak against all swearing , they indeed practice some swearing . and those of maidstone , who offer an engagement taken before some justice of the peace in a solemn manner , with calling god to witness of the truth of what they say , do offer to swear or take an oath . the lawfulness of which , and particularly the oaths of supremacy and allegiance , and my writing about the former , i shall now endeavour to vindicate from the writings and sayings against them , which have occurred to me . richard hubberthorn having recited my first argument for my first proposition , thus , that is not wholly evil , about the use of which some directions are given by god ; but god giveth directions about the use of swearing , jer. . . ergo : answers , by the same argument may it as well be proved , that the christians and believers in christ may be circumcised , offer incense , burnt offerings and sacrifices , because for the use of it god gave some directions , and therefore it is lawful . but as circumcision , incense , burnt offerings and sacrifices of the law , is ended in christ ; so is the oath which was among the jews , in him ended also to the believers , and by him forbidden : for as it was said in old time thou shalt swear , and shalt perform thy oath to the lord ; but christ in the . of mat. making mention of the jews oath which god gave once direction for , yet saith , swear not at all . here christ puts an end , not only to frivolous & vain oaths , but to the true oaths , which the jews was once commanded of god to swear , for these oaths are they which christs words hath relation to , for he came to end the jews worships and oaths , who is the oath of god. christ the truth and righteousness of god saith , swear not at all , which ends the jewes which was to swear in truth and righteousness . to which i reply , had not samuel fisher told me in the place forementioned , that my book is answered by richard hubberthorn , i should not have thought it worth while to reply to it , there being in it so much defect of sense and reason , as makes it inconsiderable : but sith he mentions my book , as scarce worth any further answer then that of hubberthorn , it seems he esteems it of some moment . and therefore i say , that . richard hubberthorn leaves out of the proof of my minor [ as in the third commandment ( which is undoubtedly moral ) ] which words shew that i mean my major proposition of moral actions . . he supposeth that swearing allowed by god in the old testament , which christ corrects , was not only frivolous and vain oaths , but the true oaths which the jews were commanded , and christ was to end , who is gods oath . but he considers not that swearing was common to all nations , as philistines , gen. . . & . . syrians , gen. . , &c. nor is christ any where termed in scripture , gods oath , nor an oath made worship peculiar to the jews ; nor a shadow or ceremony which might typifie christ . now my major proposition being ( as the words shew i understood it ) thus expressed , [ that action belonging to manners , common to all nations , and not proper to the jews , about the use of which god giveth some directions , is not wholly evil ] is firm and unshaken by the instances of r. h. which are not of moral , but ceremonial rites , which ended in christ , but not so the moral commandment , of which sort swearing is , and so may be lawful . . to my second argument , from psal . . . his answer is , only that david was in the old covenant of the law , but christ in the new covenant bids ; swear not at all . hereto i reply , this answer presupposeth that an oath was appropriated to the covenant of the law . but this is false , sith it was , in other nations besides israelites , customary to swear even before the law , as the instances in genesis and elsewhere shew . as for his flings at hireling priests and hypocrites , i let them pass as being only reviling , in general terms , in which is commonly guile & slander . to the instances which i bring for the lawfulness of some swearing , and urging to swear out of the old testament , he saith , all these were under the first covenant , and in that which christ called the old time , mat. . and proves nothing that christians in the new covenant should swear . to which i reply , . abraham , isaac , jacob , joseph , were before the law , and they took oaths of nations which were not under the law . . in moral things the commands and examples of the old testament , are rules to us still , mat. . . rom. . , . ephes . . , . james . , . . nor doth he say any thing to the angels swearing , rev. . . but this , that christ saith , swear not all , which doth not at all avoid the objection , that the angel knew christs words do not forbid all swearing , otherwise he would not have sworn at all . but to the instances of pauls adjuring and swearing , he writes somewhat more . to the allegation of thes . . . where the word signifies , i swear you by the lord , he saith , . this is the long and thick mist of darkness , which hath been long kept over the understandings of people , that when the plain scripture will not prove their ends and intents , then they tell the people it is otherwise in the greek or hebrew . i reply , . it is no darkning of peoples understandings by latter translations , to mend or to adde to former translations , sith as in all other writings and arts , dies diem docet , one day teacheth another ; latter commentators and interpreters without arrogancy , refine former . nor doth this darken , but inlighten mens understandings , nor give any occasion to doubt of the faithfulness of former translators , but only shews the imperfection of their knowledge . nor is there any just cause why for this reason men should waver in their faith , the main doctrines of faith and manners being by common consent expressed either in the same words , or words of the same meaning , and if any should deprave them , the variety of copies and translations would remedy it . . saith hubberthorn , did not the translator of the bible understand greek as well as john tombes ? answ . yes , and as john tombes understood it , which he told his reader , that the greek word was translated , i charge you by the lord , or adjure you as it is in the margin . . saith he , or are we not to believe the scripture , as it spoaks , till again it be translated by him ? answ . yes no doubt , and this place the rather , because it is translated by him no otherwise then by the translators , only the word [ adjure ] which is made an english word out of the latin , is explained , by , i swear you by the lord , i urge , or put an oath on you by the lord , or as samuel fisher saith , it signifies , i bind you by oath . . saith he , it is i oblige or charge you in the presence of god , &c. i reply , it is , i charge or oblige you by oath or swearing , not only in the presence of god , but also by the lord. . saith he , seeing john tombes saith he swore them , he might have declared in what manner they were sworn , seeing paul was at athens when he wrote to thessaloniea . i reply , he might understand how paul at athens could swear them at thessalonica , if he understood how saul charged by oath , or adjured , or bound by oath the people and jonathan his son , though absent and ignorant , sam. . , , . . saith he , john tombes makes the like charge to be in tim. . . which according to the greek he would make an oath ; but it is i injoin or command thee before god , not putting an oath on them , or causing them to swear : and tim. . . not that he took him sworn , or put an oath on him , but did charge him . i reply , i said not they were the same , but like charges , yet differing , . in that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , thes . . . doth expresly include an oath , or swearing , which i confess 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i command or injoin doth not , yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i witness before god , tim. . . doth come near it . . that thes . . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the accusative case , cannot be understood any otherwise then thus [ by the lord ] which is a form of swearing more plain then that , tim. . . though it be like it . but samuel fisher saith , nor doth john tombes insisting on the greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thes . . . adde a jor to his proof ; for howbeit it is ordinarily us'd to signifie to adjure or bind one by oath , yet ( being as some suppose of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to confine , or ( as some ) of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a bound or limit ) it originally signifies to bind , limit , confine , oblige any way by word or promise , as well as oath . and j. t. confessing pauls charge in that place , and tim. . . tim. . . to be alike , therein confutes himself however . for the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there used , are no more then to engage before some witness ( god or man ) or solemnly to command or charge , and not to swear one , and cannot be taken so strictly as to adjure , though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be taken in the moderate sense , i. e. any way to oblige , as well as in that rigid way of swearing . i reply , that the rule of expounding or interpreting words , is not the derivation of the word , which often is very uncertain , but the use ( which is vis & norma loquendi , the force and rule of speaking ) and there being no instance given by him of any place , where it is used in any author of obliging , in his moderate sense , without an oath , and he confessing that , it is ordinarily used to signifie to adjure or bind by oath , and it being i charge or adjure by the lord , it can be taken in no other sence then swearing or binding by oath ; nor doth my alledging tim. . . tim. . . as like charges , abate any whit the force of my proof , sith i do not call them the same , or the one as express for charging by oath , as the other . in my fourth argument i alledged , cor. . , . and . . and . . cor. . . to prove the use of swearing by paul in gospel-times . to the first only richard hubberthorn saith thus , now those that minds this scripture , may see that paul doth only justifie christs words in keeping to yea and nay , saying , that with him it was not yea and nay , for saith he , ver . . but as god is true , our word towards you was not yea and nay . and ver . . for the son of god , jesus christ , who was preached among you by us , even by me and silvanus , and timotheus , was not yea and nay , for all the promises of god in him are yea , and in him amen . so that this scripture is so far from bringing people to oaths and swearing , that he labours to bring them all to yea and nay in all things , and so to christ the substance , in whom all the promises of god are yea ; so that the apostle might well use these words , that as god was true , &c. so also were they true to their yea and nay , the end of all oaths . i reply . . richard hubberthorn in all this his pretended answer doth not deny , the expressions cor. . . as god is true , cor. . . i call god for a record upon ( or against ) my soul , cor. . . the god and father of our lord jesus christ , which is blessed for evermore , knoweth that i lie not , cor. . . we speak before god in christ , to be forms of swearing . surely the expression , cor. . . i call god for record , is so plain an appealing to gods testimony , which is the definition of an oath by attestation or contestation of god as true , and upon or against my soul , by pawning or wishing a curse to himself , if he spake not true , and so appealing to god , not only as tostis or witness , but also as vindex , the avenger or judge , if he spake not true , that i find few or no expressions of swearing , more full then this , and therefore do thence infer irrefragably , that paul did swear , and consequently , that he did not conceive christ forbade all swearing , and therefore it is but his conceit , that the prescribing yea and nay , mat. . . was to put an end of all oaths . . whereas he saith , that this scripture labours to bring them to yea and nay in all things , and that paul doth only justifie christs words in keeping to yea and nay , it is so far from being true , that if the expressions of [ yea and nay ] were meant of using those words without swearing , as r. h. doth vainly imagin , the apostle would be so far from bringing them to yea and nay in all things , and justifying christs words in keeping to yea and nay , that he should indeed do the contrary , forasmuch as he saith , our word toward you was not yea and nay , and , the son of god , jesus christ , who was preached among you by us , was not yea and nay . i know the meaning of the speech , our word towards you was not yea and nay , is not about the using of these terms , yea and nay , but of the constancy of his speech and actions , as i express it in my serious consideration , p. . but i only shew me silliness of richard hubberthorns talk , sith what he alledgeth , if understood as he seems to understand it , would make against him . but samuel fisher against my allegation of cor. . . saith thus , and as for his saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a particle of swearing , i say it is not necessarily so , but oft of affirming only as quidem , profecto , truly , verily , &c. and however where paul uses it , cor. . . he does not swear ( as j. t. divines he did ) for sith he , and all confess , none are to swear by any but god alone ; pauls swearing there ( had it been an oath ) had been unlawful , it being not by god , but by his and the corinthians rejoycing . to which i reply , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , grammarians make a particle of sweaning ; nor hath s. f. shewed any instance , where having an accusative case after it , as here , it is a particle of affirming without swearing , and until he do so , it is necessarily here a particle of swearing . nor is it against the confession , that none are to swear by any but god only . for in this oath he swears by god , when he swears by his and the corinthians rejoycing , it being an oath by oppignoration , pawning , or execration , in which god is appealed to as judge , or avenger , as well as witness , by pawning to him , and wishing the forfeiture of his rejoycing , or glorying in christ jesus , if what he saith were not true ; as when we say , on my salvation it is so , as god help me , &c. which i hope to clear more fully , if ever i finish and publish my fuller treatise about swearing , forementioned . hitherto samuel fisher's opposition hath confirmed my arguments against himself . i return to richard hubberthorn . to my alledging to prove paul ' s swearing , rom. . . & . . gal. . . phil. . . richard hubberthorn thus saith , is this a proof for men to swear and take oaths for men , or against men ? hath not the man here lost the understanding of a man ? thus to compare and call this the apostles oath , when he takes god to witness , that he prayes for the saints continually ; is this an oath to testifie the truth of his writing against lies ? indeed this we desire , that john tombs , and the rest of the priests in this nation , would write nothing but what god would witness unto the truth of ; and that they would speak truth , and not lie , then they would not thus abuse the apostles words , when as the apostles intend no such thing in their words here asserted . and whereas it is again said , that the apostle took an oath , phil. . . now let all honest and sober hearted men consider , whether the truth of god and the apostles that speak it forth , be not abused , that from a novice that is lifted up in pride , and would do or say any thing for his hire , should bring those scriptures to plead for swearing , and that lawfulness of oaths ; in all which the apostle took god to witness his love to the saints , and labour in the work of his ministry , signifying that all understand how that he spoke the truth , and did not lie , and kept to his yea and nay , according to christs doctrine ( and did not swear at all . ) i reply , . those texts were not brought by me as a proof for men to swear and take oaths for men or against men , but to prove that some swearing in gospel-times may be lawful , sith the apostle paul , a man moved by the holy spirit , even in his holy writings and speeches did swear : which is enough against r. h. and his complices , who deny any swearing lawful in any case . . i say , that these speeches [ god is my witness , i speak the truth in christ , i lie not , my conscience also bearing me witness in the holy ghost , behold , before god i lie not , god is my record ] are forms of swearing , it being the definition of an oath , which all writers that i know of agree in , that an oath is an appeal to , or invocation of god , as joint witness with us of the truth of our speeches , and therefore in this i write nothing , but what god will witness the truth of , i speak truth before god , without abusing the apostles words in pleading for the lawfulness of some swearing ; and in this i dare stand to the arbitrement of sober , honest-hearted , intelligent men , not fearing the censure of r. h. as if i were a novice , who have been a professor of christianity above forty years , and a preacher of the gospel above thirty , and wish r. h. do not accuse me as lifted up with pride , with the like spirit as it is said , that diogenes trampled on plato's pride with greater pride , there being not many branches of pride greater then this , to take on him to judge the secrets of anothers heart , and to foretel what he will do , it being to behave himself as if he were god. sure they that know me , and judge of me with a charitable mind , they that have had experience of my adventures and losses for asserting truth , will not believe r. h. in what he here suggests , that i would do or say any thing for hire , who would thank r. h. if he would shew what hire i have taken , which the words of christ and his apostle allow not , luke . . cor. . , , , , . tim. . , . gal. . . but if he think his tongue is his own , that he may accuse and reproach at his pleasure , i think it my duty to tell him , that his practice is rayling and false accusing ; and that his tongue is set on fire of hell , and that without repentance he shall not inherit the kingdom of god , cor. . , . he proceeds in the same vein of reviling , censuring and false accusing in his speech of my fifth argument , to which he makes no answer but this , that to break christs command is of no necessary use ; that i might as well have stated my argument , that to break christs command is of benefit to humane society , therefore to break christs command is lawful , &c. and might thus have proved it , that except we break christs command , we cannot preach for hire , nor sue men at law for tithes , nor live in pride , ease and vanity , nor keep our places of profit and benefits , which is necessary for our society of priests , ergo. but we whose eyes god hath opened , do see that all his book tends to perswading of people to swear when christ hath said , swear not at all , and that which he would now swear for again , would swear against for the same advantage and profits which he hath in his eye , yea , or he would perswade all men not to swear , and bring scripture to prove it upon the same account , so that what he doth in this kind , is because of advantage : for two years since he did not preach this doctrine , nor write those arguments . to which i reply , the lord rebuke thee : there 's none of thy accusations of divinations here , after thy rayling fashion , brought by thee , which thou canst prove by me , and those that know me , know it to be false which thou suggests concerning my seeking gain , and suiting my actions thereto , and changing my doctrin . there is no doctrin in that book thou here opposest , or the other of the insufficiency of light in each man , which hath not been my constant doctrine . what thou wouldst have imagined as if no swearing were of necessary use to humane society , is contrary to all experience of governors of kingdoms and commonwealths , and the apostles words alledged by me , heb. . . an oath for confirmation is to men an end of all strife . that which samuel fisher saith , that what swearing was then allowed of , ( as before a ruler it then was to end a strife among men , who are yet in strife ) is now unlawful among his saints , who are redeemed out of strife , and the rest of those fleshly works , which it is one of , gal. . is a silly shift . for , . the saints are men . . those of the old testament were saints , and yet were to swear . . if men , not saints , may swear to end strife , then it is not prohibited by christ to them to swear in some cases , and , sith the precept of not swearing is not limited to saints , if others may swear in some cases , notwithstanding that precept , saints may swear also . . saints are redeemed from other works of the flesh , yet are not so redeemed , but that they may have envyings , wrath , emulations . however quakers imagine themselves perfect , yet the scripture doth not say , that the most eminent saint is so redeemed out of strife , but that he may be tempted to , and guilty of some unlawfull strife , while he is in the body . . there was strife between paul and barnabas , acts . . paul and peter , gal. . . the corinthians , cor. . . who were termed saints , ver . . . quakers are guilty of strifes in opposing preachers and reviling dissenters from them , and therefore if it be necessary to end strifes of men , that there be oaths , it is also necessary to swear to end strifes with them . do not they seek to recover stollen goods , due debts ? and if so , oaths are necessary for them . . oftimes saints are found so guilty of contentions among themselves , that , were not magistrates impowred to compose them , they would be endless and remediless . the story of the libels brought to constantine the great at the nicene council , of one bishop and confessour against another , and burnt by him , shewes , how ill it would fare with the best saints , if magistracy did not quiet them . our own times have had too much experience of this . . saints live among men unholy , to whom they owe duties of love and righteousness , which cannot be done without testifying the truth in many cases , wherein they differ , to end their strife ; and therefore saints are bound , when the laws require oaths , and they are the only witnesses to give in evidence , out of charity and justice to swear for ending of strife . richard hubberthorn addes something against what i argue in proof of the fourth proposition , omitting any shew of answer to my sixth argument for my first proposition , and passing over the second and third . i alledged to prove this proposition , [ that the king is the only supreme governor in all his dominions ] the example and rule of christ , mat. . . tim. . . luke . . which he saith , i bring to prove an oath of supremacy to king caesar ; which is not true , it being brought to prove a supremacy over all persons , not an oath of supremacy , and so all his answer is impertinent . the argument stands good . christ himself did acknowledge subjection to caesar , and his parents , therefore no prelate is exempt from the kings government . richard hubberthorn addes , john tombes saith , that paul a saint was subject to the judgement of caesar , and appealed to him , then he acknowledged him supreme , &c. ergo. ans . paul was a prisoner for the word of god , and testimony of jesus , and appealed to caesar for justice , because he was unjustly accused , and had not done any thing worthy of bonds or of death ; therefore according to their law he ought to be set free ; but paul did not call caesar the supreme head of the church , and chief ruler in ecclesiastical things , for if caesar had been the supreme head of the church , of which paul was a member , he would but have needed little appealing unto for setting him at liberty ; but in such arguments as tombes hath used , is manifest the ignorance of foolish men , wherein their folly appeareth to all men , as the scripture saith , tim. . . i reply , 't is true , i alledged pauls example , acts . , . to prove the king supreme governor over all persons in his dominions , and acts . . and . , , , . and . , , , . and . , . to prove him governor in all causes , or chief ruler in ecclesiastical things , not to prove caesar supreme head of the church , as r. h. misrepresents me . now he shews not any defect in my proof taken from matter of fact related in the text , but tels us , if caesar had been supreme head of the church , of which paul was a member , he would have needed little appealing , which is to alter the conclusion , and to say nothing to that point which was in question , nor to answer the proof at all , which all that know the rules of arguing know to be ridiculous , and indeed very foolish . speeding no better in answering my arguments , r. h. proceeds to his wonted course of invectives against my person , which i am necessitated to take notice of , because they are impediments to many , of receiving the truth i teach , and do so fill people with prejudice , that their ears are stopped from hearkning to the clearest demonstrations , and they are carried away with the vain conceits of quakers , and other blind guides . he tels me , that my ministry if received would beget men from their holy and harmless state into transgression of christs command , and from the tenderness of conscience into hardness of heart , and saith , when i say the oath of supremacy was imposed for excluding of the popes jurisdiction , &c. if so , why dost thou preach it up to be imposed upon the holy , harmless , godly christians , who are redeemed from the popes power and jurisdiction , that i am a miserable comforter to tender consciences , that my end is seen , and therefore cannot deceive many , that those holy persons who are tender of an oath , ought to be my teachers , who am far from righteousness or tenderness of conscience , that it is a shame for me to be an imposer of oaths upon tender consciences , who profess my self a minister of christ , that it is manifest my ministry is to bring people into condemnation , in which he falsly accuseth me , that i am an imposer of oaths upon tender consciences , that i preath it up to be imposed upon the holy , harmless , godly christians , because to free them from the snare , which the law of the land brings them into by reason of their denying to take the oaths of supremacy and allegiance , i have endeavoured out of compassion to their souls , to prove to them , that such swearing may be lawful : it is not i that impose the oaths on them , but the law and the officers that are to execute it ; nor did i preach it up to be imposed on tender consciences , but after it was imposed on them by others , and my petition with others to his majesty for the release thereof without the desired effect , i did upon advise and importunity , publish the writing about it , to free them from mistakes , who scrupled the thing , there being then in appearance , no other way for the liberty and help of many then imprisoned , and more liable to imprisonment for their refusal to swear , then by shewing them the lawfulness of that , for denying of which they suffered , and therefore they might without danger to their souls , and much benefit to themselves in their outward estate , take an expedite course for their peace . which charity ( that thinketh no evil , that hopeth all things , believeth all things , cor. . . . ) if there had been any in r. h. would not have construed to have been done to any evil end , but out of love and mercy to men for their good , and for the great advantage of them that are of the same judgement with me in point of baptism , that it may not be imputed to them as their common tenent , that they allow no oaths , no not in judicial proceedings , which is interpreted as tending to the overthrow of all civil government , and so the persons counted intolerable , which hath caused , and is yet likely to cause great persecution to those that hold the truth about baptism . in which thing i bless god i have not been so miserable a comforter , but that i know my self of many , and am told of more hundreds , yea thousands , who have had their liberty and their families , saved from ruine , by reason of the clearing of the point to them in that book ; and , if some after their swearing have been disquieted in spirit because of their oath , it is not to be imputed to that book , but their own weakness , or such affrightments as r. h. and others , do put upon them . i refuse not to be taught by r. h. or any other , but , sure i am , in this thing r. h. yields me no light to rectifie me , but by his false accusations of me , as far from righteousness , as bringing men into condemnation by my ministry , &c. gives me occasion to fear that he is led by an evil spirit , so venomous a tongue discovering a malicious poisoned heart . my answer to the grand objection from mat. . , , , . james . . was , that there must of necessity be some limitation of christs speech , as of the next speech , ver . , , , , . and many more places , which i then did not recite , but shall now refer the reader to some of them , mat. . , . mat. . , . . . mat. . . mat. . . mat. . , , . luke . . john . . which with many more if they were understood without limitation , would cross other texts of holy scripture , and such truths as are undeniable , and introduce such evils as are intolerable . and that mat. . , , , . is to be limited , i proved it from the angels and pauls swearing and adjuring after that precept , which shews they understood it with limitation , and so are we to understand it , and that it is to be limited as i there set down , i proved from the words of the text , there and elsewhere . hereto r. h. speaketh thus . indeed it doth plainly appear , that thou must of necessity either disprove christs words , or else deny thy own , seeing they are contrary the one to the other : so therefore thou saist , that it was those oaths above mentioned , that was forbidden by christ and the apostles , and i shall shew it plainly , that thou hast no necessity to limit christs words to vain and prophane swearing ; ( but only that thou wouldst have thy words true , and his false ) for christs words in mat. . do not intend such oaths , for he speaks of the true oaths which was used among the jews , and such oaths as christ told them they were to perform ; for it was not said in old time , that they should perform vain , light , prophane , unnecessary , customary , and passionate oaths , but such as they were to perform betwixt the lord and them , and the solemn vows and covenants which they made in old time to their kings , and one to another , the christians now by the command of christ was not , to swear these oaths , neither any oath true nor false . to which i reply , 't is true , christ spake of true oaths to be performed to the lord , as the occasion of his precept did lead him to speak : but it is true also , that our lord christ forbids not such oaths universally , nor as they were used in old time among the jews , and to their kings , and one unto another ; but as the pharisees and other teachers interpreted what was said to them of old time , that what was said to them , did bind no further then not to break their oaths , but to perform them to the lord , otherwise they might swear as oft as they would , and in what manner they pleased : but this christ denied , and determines they might not swear frequently , unnecessarily , with such oaths as they used , and conceits of the obligation of some , and not others , as the text leads us to conceive ; and the reasons by me given , prove the words are to be limited , to which r. h. hath given no answer , and therefore my answer and whole dispute stands good , notwithstanding the opposition of r. h. and s. f. and for the insinuations of r. h. that this is preaching of the lawfulness of swearing ( or sinning ) against christs command , and that such teachers are given to change with every government , and that they preach as the false prophets did for handfuls of barley and pieces of bread , they are but a further continuation of his revilings , it being no teaching against , but expounding of christs command ; nor have we changed our doctrine or principles with change of government , but shewed subjection to the powers that be , as paul injoins , rom. . , . nor do we look at wages any otherwise , then we are allowe nor conceive we are bound by any law of christ or his apostles , to refuse or neglect more liberal maintenance , be it by tithes or other pay assigned by law , then that which is by meer alms or voluntary contribution , which in most places is so scant , that persons of worth are necessitated to live in a sordid manner , or people are necessitated to take persons of little worth , and thereby the ministry is debased , the people untaught or ill taught , such ignorant and corrupt men , as r. h. seems to be by his writing , creep in among men , and pervert them . that which r. h. saith , the jews sware by the living god , but the apostates by the book , insinuates , as if such were apostates as swear thus , and that they swear by the book , and not by the living god. but neither doth he prove , that they who teach the lawfulness of some swearing , are apostates from christianity , any more then holy paul , who hath left upon record in holy scripture , his oaths , after he was an apostle ; nor is this form of swearing , so help me god , and by the contents of this book , any other then swearing by the living god , made known in that book , and pawning our interest in his help , according to the doctrine and promises in that book , expressed by laying the hand on the book , as formerly by coming before the altar , kings . . chron. . . as a sign of our abandoning our interest in gods help , made known in that book , if we speak not truth . i find in an humble petition of some prisoners in maidston , dated january . that they cannot acknowledge any authority that god hath given the king in spiritual things or causes ; and they thus argue : if thou hast any power to be a lord over our faith , or by outward force to impose any thing in the worship of god on our consciences , it is given unto thee as thou art a magistrate , or as thou art a christian ; but thou hast no such power given unto thee of god as thou art a magistrate , appears , . because if magistrates as such , have such an authority , then all magistrates in all nations have the same power : in turky i must be a mahometan , in spain a papist ; and for ever as the authority changes religion , i must do the same . . because the apostles refused to be obedient to their rulers , when they were commanded to forbear that which they judged part of the worship of god , acts . . acts . . . all the scriptures of the new testament that injoyns obedience unto magistrutes , were written when the romans had the empire of the world , whose emperours were for the most part ( if not all ) heathenish idolaters for the first years , until constantine 's time ; it therefore cannot be supposed , that any of these texts of scripture that calls for obedience to magistrates , intends an obedience in matters of faith or worship , for then the christians that lived under those emperours , must needs have denied christ , and worshipped the roman gods , as some of the emperours commanded . answ . though in my serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy , there is that said which might have prevented this objection , yet being willing to clear the truth more fully , i say , . that it is not rightly supposed , that by outward force any thing in the worship of god , may be imposed on mens consciences . for though by outward force , things may be imposed on the outward man , and the actions of some of the members , yet by outward force a thing cannot be imposed on the conscience . for then only is a thing imposed on the conscience , when the conscience is convinced , that he ought to do , or not to do it , which must be done by doctrine , or some other way insinuating into the conscience the necessity or lawfulness of doing or not doing a thing , which outward force cannot perform . . that it is a greater mistake , that the king in the oath of supremacy , is acknowledged to have power to be a lord over faith , or by outward force to impose any thing in the worship of god , on mens consciences . this mistake might have been rectified , if they had heeded the oath , proviso , admonition , th . article prefixed before my book , and the explication of the th . and th . propositions , which i gave conformably to the speeches of learned approved men , by the princes that have been and are , which i find not yet any persons in authority have disallowed ; and yet i conceive by their words in the end of their petition , they were not ignorant thereof , sith they cite the proviso of the statute . eliz. and the admonition , which i presume they found printed in my book . by which they might have understood , that kings are acknowledged governors in spiritual things , as well , and no otherwise as in temporal things . now in temporal things they have not power to impose any thing on mens consciences by outward force , not is the king a lord over our faith in temporal things ; so as that if he should tell us we may marry our brothers wife , or command us to fight a duel for our honour , we may think we are bound in conscience to do it , or that we may lawfully do it , much less that he is lord over our faith in the things of god , so as to impose on our consciences what we shall believe concerning god , christ , the covenant of grace , the doctrine of salvation , &c. or to form the worship of god by addition or diminution , otherwise then is appointed by gods word , but as dr. rainold's confer . with hart , chap. . cites the words of augustine , which i find in the seventh tome of his works , in the third book against cresconius the grammarian , chap. . more fully then in the fiftieth epistle , for in this kings , as it is commanded them by god , served god as they are kings , if in their kingdom they command good things , and forbid evil things , not only which pertain to humane society , but also which pertain to the religion of god. and as they are not to govern in temporal things , but according to just laws of the commonwealth , so neither in the things of god , but according to the holy laws of god ; and although they have more authority in making and executing laws in civil things , then in religious , yet in neither to make or execute laws contrary to gods laws , nor to usurp that prerogative which belongs to god to dispense with his laws , or to hinder the doing of a duty imposed in the first or second table of the law , or to mould or urge doctrines of faith or worship , otherwise then god in scripture declares or appoints ; nor do we acknowledge by taking that oath , that we owe them active obedience , if they urge us by laws and edicts thereto , in things reserved to gods prerogative , or such as are contrary to his laws in force , only we are to yield passive obedience by suffering , and not resisting the power and authority thus abused . nor is there any thing in the words of q. elizabeths admonition annexed to her injunctions , contrary to this explication . for the queen doth not say , that she challenged by that oath , such a power as was challenged by her father , king henry the eighth , which was , to burn his subjects at the stake for their dissenting from him in religious matters : but she saith , that nothing was , is , or shall be meant or intended by the same oath , to have any other duty , allegiance , or bond required by the same oath , then was acknowledged to be due to the most noble kings of famous memory , king henry the eighth her majesties father , or king edward the sixth , her majesties brother . and again : for certainly her majesty neither doth , ne ever will challenge any other authority , then that was challenged , and lately used by the said noble kings of famous memory , king henry the eighth , and king edward the sixth , which is , and was of ancient time due to the imperial crown of this realm ; that is , under god to have the soverainty and rule over all manner of persons , born within these her realms , dominions and countries , of what estate , either ecclesiastical or temporal , soever they be , so as no other forrein power shall , or ought to have any superiority over them . now if she had challenged power to burn at a stake her subjects , for their dissenting from king henry the eighth in religious matters , then she must challenge power to burn all his protestant subjects at a stake , and therefore she must be conceived to challenge only authority over all persons to govern them according to just laws , excluding forrein power . whereto agree both the words of the th . article , set down in my former book , and the word of king james in this , that in that oath only is contained the kings absolute power to be judge over all persons , as well civil as ecclesiastical , excluding all forrein powers and potentates , to be judges within his dominions . nor is it true , that by king henries practice appears , that q. elizabeth challenged power to burn dissenters from king henry in matters of religion . for she did not challenge all the power , which king henry practised , for then she should have challenged a power to behead her mother , which he practised , and if the queen her self exercised the same authority ( though it be not to be called authority or power truly , but an usurpation or abuse of power ) in putting some to death for their conscience in religion , yet doubtless she challenged no other power then what before had been or might be lawfully exercised or used , as the words are in the statute . eliz. c. . a little before the oath of supremacy , nor doth the oath acknowledge the king governor , or to have any other power or authority to be assisted , defended or actively obeyed , then as it is lawful , and used or exercised lawfully , and therefore in answer to the three arguments of the petitioners , i say , . that by the acknowledgement of the kings supremacy in spirituals , as a magistrate neither is a man bound to change his religion as the king doth , nor to forbear gods worship which he forbids , nor to deny christ , or worship other gods because he commands it . it followes in the maidston prisoners petition . and now , o king , that no man as he is a christian , hath power to be a lord over anothers faith , or by outward force to impose any thing in the worship of god , is as clear , . because the lord jesus himself , nor his disciples , would never by any outward force compel men to receive them or their doctrine ; for when the disciples of christ ( supposing they might use violence as under the law ) would have commanded fire to come from heaven ( as elias did ) to consume them that would not receive them ; christ turned and rebuked , saying , ye know not what spirit ye are of , for the son of man is not come to destroy mens lives , but to save them . answ . to be governor in things and causes spiritual and ecclesiastical , is ascribed to the king as king , and not as a christian , for a christian as a christian hath not the government of any others besides himself in any causes , and he is governor in ecclesiastical causes , as well as temporal : but he is not governor in temporal things as a christian , but as a king ; although it is true , that a christian is better fitted to govern in both causes , in that he is a christian , his christianity by framing his spirit to wisedom , justice , clemency , &c. producing more aptitude to govern , though not more authority , and therefore were there not in this part of the petition sundry mistakes , by which those petitioners incommodate , and harm themselves and others ; and there seems to be some reflection on my book of the serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy , i should let this pass : but for these reasons i shall a little examine what is said . . the mistake is continued , as if by acknowledging the king supreme governor in spiritual things , he had a power given him to be lord over anothers faith , which were indeed to ascribe that to the king , which the pope takes on him , to determine what a christian is to believe , which hart the jesuite imagined was given to the king by that oath , but was rectified therein by dr. john rainold confer . with hart , chap. . . if [ by imposing by outward force , any thing in the worship of god ] be meant of imposing on the conscience , the same mistake is continued , which i have before discovered : but if [ by outward force imposing any thing in the worship of god ] be meant of [ imposing by civil penalties on the outward man , something in gods worship ] there is need of much caution to determine of their power . civil penalties are greater , as death , banishment , mutilation , imprisonment , spoiling of estate , liberty of trade , &c. or less , as some small diminution of priviledges , office , &c. the things imposed on men may be either the commands , or plain institutions of christ , or some things devised by men , as councils , fathers , prelates , &c. and these impositions may be either in circumstances of time , place , order , which are undetermined by christ , or in such points of doctrine or worship , as are of greater moment , and determined by christ . the impositions may be such , as are termed by the apostle , hay and stubble , or such as overthrow the foundation which is laid , which is jesus christ , cor. . , . such as are impositions tending to idolatry , superstition , profaneness , heresies of perdition , blasphemy . the imposition may be on teachers or learners , stronger or weaker christians , to be subscribed to , or taught , or to be conformed to , or professed , and this to be done either by bare presence , which infers no consent , or by some act which shews consent . it cannot be denied , but that kings by reason of their errour and rigour , have very sadly miscarried in their impositions on christian brethren in matters of faith and worship , there having been many mistakes in the best councils , fathers , prelates and learned men , since the apostles days , who have seldome been so equal , as to permit those they have been prejudiced against , to debate freely and fully what they hold ; nor are they heard with that equanimity , which were requisite . and therefore princes , parliaments , republiques , have made many hard laws , and done innumerable unrighteous executions , to shedding of much innocent blood , and most heavy oppressions of men , either guiltless , or not deserving such severe penalties as they have indured . i think kings and parliaments who see not much with their own eyes , but are fain to use the judgements of learned men and prelates , who are often partial through prejudice or interest , or not studied in the points about which they advice , do often stand in a very slippery place ; and that law-makers and officers of justice have need of very much circumspection and tenderness , ere they make penal laws in matter ; of religion , that they should not make heresie by the determinations of any councils since the apostles days , nor urge subscriptions and conformity under civil penalties , but in things plainly set down in holy scripture , that so much liberty to dissents and different usages should be given , as may stand with peace . yet that kings should use no civil penalties on men for any disorders or errours in any matters of saith or worship of god , i am not yet convinced by any thing i have read , much less by the arguments of these petitioners . not by the first . for a king may do that which our lord christ in his state of humiliation would not do . he would not divide an inheritance among brethren , luke . , . and yet a king may do it . for though christ was king in right , yet he refused at that time to take upon him , or to execute the office of a king , but took upon him the form of a servant , phil. . . and therefore a king on his throne is not debarred from doing that which christ would not do in his debasement . and yet even then the lord christ did whip the buyers and sellers out of the temple , and overthrew the tables of the money-changers , john . , . mat. . . i will not now dispute , whether christ did this jure zelotarum , by the right that zelots of the law among the jews , claimed to themselves ; or jure regio , by the right of a king , under which notion acclamation was made to him when he rode on an ass into jerusalem , luke . . after which he did expel the buyers and sellers out of the temple , ver . . nor whether this be a good proof for magistrates , to intermeddle in matters of religion , as it hath been argued by mr. cobbet of new england . it is sufficient for my present purpose , that the alledging of christs example by these petitioners , is so far from making against the kings power in ecclesiastical causes , that it rather makes for it . nor is it against the kings power in causes ecclesiastical that the lord jesus himself , nor his disciples , never would by any outward force compel men to receive them or their doctrine . for , besides what is already said of christs example , there is a great difference to be made between professed infidels , and disorderly christians ; between planting of the gospel at first , and resorming christians who have in shew received it , there may be reason to do the latter by civil penalties , though not the former , though men are not to be made christians by civil penalties , sith religion is not to be inforced , but perswaded , yet being christians they may be corrected by civil penalties . as the apostle paul , though he said , what have i to do to judge them that are without ? cor. . . yet did not exclude ecclesiastical penalties on them that are within ; no more are they that are within , freed from civil penalties in some things ecclesiastical , because they are within , though perhaps they that are without , are not to be compelled to come in . and yet it is not proved , that a king may not use some civil penalties , especially denying of favours and priviledges to them that embrace not the faith , or rather , it is certain , he ought so to put a difference between christians and infidels , godly christians and profane loose ones , that the former may have that encouragement and benefit , which others have not , according to davids example , psal . . which a king ought to follow . as for the speech of christ , luke . , , . it serves much less for the petitioners purpose . for . the reason of the disciples desire of calling fire from heaven , was not their not receiving them or their doctrine as christian , but as jews . for the samaritans did not receive christ , because his face was as though he would go to jerusalem , ver . . which shews , that their not receiving him , was out of the hatred they bare to him as a jew , and to the worship which was at jerusalem , according to what we read of the samaritans , joh. . , . & . . and therefore this is not to the present purpose of christs denying power to the civil magistrate , to inflict civil penalties on the non-receivers of his doctrine . . the fact of the samaritans was far different from the fact of the captains that came to take elijah , kings . chap. for they came to take elijah to destroy him , these only did not receive christ , those doubtless were worshippers of baal , and joyned with the king of israel to uphold idolatry , and to persecute the prophets and worshippers of the true god , which made them more justly objects of wrath and divine vengeance then the samaritans were . . that which the disciples would have had fall on the samaritans , was fire from heaven to destroy them , which was too great a punishment for that neglect : but this doth not prove that a lesser and proportionable penalty , may not be inflicted on some disorderly christians by a civil magistrate . . the disciples were but private persons , and were carried with a private and selfish spirit , even the desire of private revenge , and therefore christ rebukes them , as not minding with what spirit they were moved ; which hinders not but that a publique magistrate , ex zelo justitiae , with a publique spirit out of zeal of justice , may inflict some proportionable civil penalties on christians , who are his subjects for some offences in spiritual or ecclesiastical things or causes . but , say the petitioners , . if any men under heaven have had any such power in the dayes of the gospel , the apostles and elders in the primitive times must needs have had it , but this they disowned . the apostle paul in cor. . . saith thus , not for that we have dominion over your faith , but are helpers of your joy , for by faith you stand ; yea the lord jesus when they strove for domination , forbids it , saying , ye know that the princes of the gentiles exercise dominion over them , and they that are great do exercise authority upon them , but it shall not be so amongst you , mat. . , . even so saith peter , speaking to the elders , feed the flock of god which is amongst you , taking the oversight thereof , not by constraint , but willingly ; not for filthy lucre , but of a ready mind , neither as being lords over gods heritage , but being examples to the flock , pet. . , . and in truth the apostles and disciples were not to use any external force to carry on their masters work , but only by shewing the terrours of the lord were to perswade men ; and in case of resistance to shake the dust from their feet , as a witness against their opposers . answ . . to have dominion over our faith , that is to appoint authoritatively what we shall believe , what not , so as that if we believe not , we sin against god , and are liable to his wrath , is peculiar to christ the great prophet of the church , acts . , . to the apostles themselves , christ said , mat. . . neither be ye called masters , for one is your master , even christ . neither the pope , nor any council of bishops or elders , much less kings and parliaments ( who take not upon them to be teachers in the church ) can prescribe to us our creed , or form of worship of god , any otherwise then christ and his apostles from him , have delivered them to us . nor doth the oath of supremacy ascribe to them such power and authority , but it hath been disclaimed , as is before shewed . nevertheless princes may require those under their dominions , to worship god in christ , according to the plain direction of the scriptures of the new testament ; and if they set up idols ; blaspheme the god of heaven , &c. may inflict civil punishment , they may forbid and punish the teaching of some doctrines , tending to the reproach of religion , destructive of christianity , of civil government , provided they be very wary , that they do not judge by any other then the plain declarations of the holy scripture , and not by the authority of any councils or fathers , sith as it is in the . article of the church of england , general councils have erred and may erre , in things pertaining to god , and the punishment be so proportioned and qualified , as may agree with justice , equity , prudence , clemency , and other vertues requisite in them that rule over others . nor 〈◊〉 that which is here alledged , of validity to disprove it . for . it is not rightly supposed , that princes have not in the days of the gospel , a power in matters of religion , which the apostles and elders in the primitive times , had not . the contrary is proved in my serious consideration of the oath of supremacy , in the confirmation of the th . and th . propositions . the apostles and elders , as messengers of christ , and pastors of the church , had their peculiar authority , which princes are not to usurp ; and princes have their peculiar power and authority , to which every soul is to be subject : neither have dominion over our faith ; and , however popes claim it , our princes disclaim it . . the text mat. . , . is rightly urged by protestants against the popes usurpation , as i shew in my romanism discussed , art. . sect. . but not rightly urged against christians , being civil magistrates , nor against princes being governors over all persons in their dominions , in spiritual things . that which is there forbidden , is rule in the apostles over one another , after the manner of the kings of the nations . . the text , pet. . , . is much less to the purpose , it being only a precept to teachers and elders of the church , concerning the exercise of their ecclesiastical function , nothing to the restraint of princes from the exercise of their office , in things and causes spiritual . . the apostles only perswading , shewing the terrours of the lord , shaking off the dust of their feet , are ill alledged to exclude princes from their power of governing all persons in all causes . the apostles and elders did not bear the sword as princes do . it would be of very bad consequence , if in case of resistance they might do no more then the apostles were to do in case their doctrine were received or opposed . it is added by the petitioners , thus . . it is very plain , that the lord jesus himself in his parable of the tares and wheat , forbids any force to be exercised upon false worshippers , as such ; for by the tares which he forbids the pulling up , mat. . . cannot be intended the transgressors of the second table , such as thieves , murderers , &c. because all confess with one consent , that the magistrates authority reaches such , but those that christ jesus would have remain amongst his wheat , in the field of the world , are the children of the wicked one through idolatry and will-worship ; this will further appear , if the , , . ver . be compared with the , . of the same chapter ; and the reason the lord jesus gives , why both tares and wheat must grow together , ( o king , that it were engraven with the point of a diamond , and often laid before thee ) is , least in gathering up the tares , the wheat also be rooted up with them . answ . parables are a way of teaching , much used of old in the eastern countries , as appears by jotham's parable , judg. . nathans parable , sam. . and they are narrations of things perhaps never done , yet related as if they had been so acted as they are told , that by the resemblance , the thing intended may more easily insinuate it self into the minds of the persons to be instructed by the parable . now there are in such parables , two parts , the one the devised story , the other the intended doctrine to be learnt by it , which is sometimes opened , as mat. . which we term the application or explication , and sometimes left to be gathered by the auditors , as luke . , &c. luke . , &c. and even mat. . , , , , , . in the devised story are many things inserted , as lace in a garment , or carvings in a building , or pictures in a map , which are only for comeliness in the speech , more handsome dress of the speech , or filling it up , and yet are not doctrinal , nor argumentative , as from the parable , luke . , , . it would be vain to teach men , that those in hell may see those in abrahams bosome , and speak one to another . and therefore it is a rule in divinity , that such symbolical expressions are not argumentative any further then their application , explication or scope , appears to be . now the parable , mat. . , , , , , , . being distinctly opened by christ , from ver . . to . it is unsafe to conclude any more from it , then christ hath done in his explication . i know this passage , mat. . , . hath been much urged for the toleration of men , corrupt in matters of faith and worship by the civil magistrate , without civil penalties , specially such as are destructive of mens being . but , what ever be said of the conclusion , this text serves not to the purpose . for . it is no part of the application or explication , ver . . to ver . . and therefore is to be counted only a filling up of the devised story , and therefore not doctrinal or argumentative . . there is no proof , that by the children of the wicked one , ver . . are meant only idolaters and wil-worshippers : yea these reasons seem to prove that others are meant , to wit , wicked men , who are transgressors of the second table of the law , as well as the first . . that the children of the wicked one , are ver . . termed all scandals , or things that do offend , and them that do iniquity , or that which is not agreeable to gods law. . john . . john . , . haters of their brethren , and murderers and liars , are termed children of the devil , or wicked one , as well as idolaters or will-worshippers . . the children of the wicked one seem to be all sorts of men , who are of satans sowing . . all those who are not children of the kingdome , but are to be cast into a furnace of fire . ver. . . are termed tares , and these are not only idolaters , will-worshippers , heretiques , but all other sorts of sinners , such as are mentioned , cor. . , . and elsewhere . nor are the reasons valid , here produced to the contrary . for . it followes not thieves and murderers , and others , whom confessedly the authority of the magistrate here reacheth , are not here meant , therefore not other transgressors of the second table , but idolaters , will-worshippers , heretiques . . nor doth it follow , christ would not have thieves , murderers , and other transgressors of the second table , remain among the wheat , but to be plucked up ; therefore they are not here meant by the tares , but idolaters and will-worshippers , as if christ would have all transgressors of the second table plucked up , none of the transgressors of the first , which is all one , as to say christ would have all liars , covetous , unrighteous persons , in any kind destroyed , not any witch , atheistical scoffer , blasphemer , idolater , profane person . . it is not proved , that by the servants of the housholder , are meant the civil magistrate , why not the angels termed reapers ? ver . . these petitioners after make them the apostles : will they have them to tolerate idolaters in the church ? . were it granted , that here were meant only idolaters , will-worshippers , heretiques , how is it proved that this is a precept to civil magistrates . there is no such precept in the application or explication of the parable , and therefore it seems to me not to note the duty of the civil magistrate , but the event of gods providence , that god would permit the cohabitation of the wicked in the world , with the just , as is also taught in the parable of the net , ver . , , , . not that magistrates or ministers should permit them , and not by civil punishment or ecclesiastical , remove them out of the church , or the world . lastly it follows not , magistrates may not destroy idolaters , will-worshippers , therefore they may not inflict any civil punishment , from the species to the genus , negatively , an argument concludes not . these petitioners further tell us , how sad it is to remember how in all ages since christ , very strange mistakes have been on this account ; the lord of life himself was put to death for supposed blasphemie and wickedness , and accused for being an enemy to caesar , mat. . . john . . and this done unto him by a people that had the law of god amongst them , and were famous in the world for their earthly wisdom and knowledge . stephen was stoned , and james the apostle killed with the sword , supposed to be tares , or the children of the wicked one , when they were the pretious wheat of god , acts . , . and . . the christians that suffered in the ten persecutions , were they not accused of being pestilent fellows , movers of sedition , turners of the world upside down , enemies to caesar , acts . , . and . , . when the contrary was most true , and they will be found to be the faithful martyrs of jesus ? so in latter times many of those that have been put to death for heresie and blasphemy , are by this age acknowledged to be the saints of god. o king , that our words might be acceptable to thee , consider , that neither thy self nor counsellors , have the spirit of infallibility ; if the apostles that had an extraordinary spirit of discerning , must not pluck up the tares , lest they root up the wheat also : how can any prince on earth undertake a work so dangerous ? it is possible , many of those that are counted false worshippers and hereticks , in this day , may ( at the time when god shall judge the world in righteousness ) be servants of the most high god. remember , we pray thee , that those that lived in the days of the lord jesus , accused their fathers for being guilty of the blood of the prophets , saying , if we had been in the days of our fathers , we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets , mat. . , . yet themselves killed the lord of life . the romish church also saith , if we had lived in the days of the heathen emperors , we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the christians , yet puts to death many as righteous as they were : and now many of thy subjects in this nation , are ready to say , if we had lived in the days of queen mary , we would not have been guilty with our fathers in the blood of those good men that then suffered ; yet such a spirit of persecution is now risen up , as ( if not restrained ) will terminate in the blood of many good men , and so bring down the wrath of god upon this generation , and there will be no remedy . answ i could eccho out all this after them , were not this alledged as a ground of their denial of the taking the oath of the kings supremacy . it is a good wish that the king would deeply consider and remember all this ; some acts of his give cause to think he doth , and to hope he will remember it . i said somewhat to the same effect in my serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy , and such things as have lately hapned , give still cause to inculcate this , that his majesty , his counsel , and ministers of justice , have need of very much circumspection how they imprison , and other ways punish men for their dissent from that which is established in matters of faith and worship , sith this power of punishing for supposed heresies , errours and schisms , hath been so unhappily and unrighteously managed , as gives cause to fear , that it neither was , nor will , nor can be well used without destruction of many innocent persons . god forbid i should justifie any abuse , or neglect according to my power and place , the seeking of reformation . nevertheless all this amounts not to a sufficient ground or reason , to deny the kings supremacy in spirituals , sith the like abuses happen in temporal things , and yet these petitioners deny not the promise , yea and that indeed in words of swearing of obedience in temporal causes . we might make a catalogue of sauls , davids , solomons , and others oppressions in temporal things , shall we therefore deny their regal power in them ? no , but acknowledge the power , and oppose the abuse ; yet not by arms , or other unpeaceable ways , but by petitions to the rulers , prayers to god , patient suffering , which are the weapons whereby christians conquer . for which reason , i except not against that which the petitioners adde . . to inflict temporal punishmemts upon any of us thy subjects , for not conforming to thy decrees , that restrain us from the worship that we know to be of god ; is it not a breach of that royal law , that commands thee , that whatsoever ye would that men should do to you , do you even so to them , for this is the law and the prophets ? mat. . . and we would in all humility offer to thy consideration , if thy soul were in our souls stead , wouldest thou be satisfied with the same measure , as is now dealt unto us , when neither the god of heaven , nor our own consciences condemn us of any evil intended against thy person or authority ? nor can the greatest of our enemies make any due proof of any combination or plotting with any upon the face of the earth , for the disturbance of the publique peace : and this we can with boldness say , because we know our own innocency . yet cannot this be a sufficient ground of denying the kings supremacy in spirituals ; nor is the proof of that supremacy enervated by what follows . but whereas it is objected , that the kings of israel and judah , under the old testament , had power in spiritual causes , and did punish blasphemy and idolatry , which are crimes of the highest nature against god , we confess they had such power , which was given to them in plain precepts , written in the law of moses ; but the gospel that we live under , is another dispensation , in which the lord jesus is the only law-giver , who doth not ( as moses ) proceed against the transgressors of his precepts , by external force and power , to the destroying them in their bodies and estates in this life , but in long suffering waits on men , not willing they should perish , but rather that they should repent and be saved , thes . . . pet. . . acts . . and when any continues in disobedience to the gospel , his punishment is eternal in the world to come . the apostle paul testifies of himself , that he was a blasphemer and perescuter , tim. . . and if the mind of god had been , that he should have suffered death in that condition , how should he have had repentance given him , and been such a glorious instrument in the church as he was ? furthermore it is too well known , that the jews are the greatest blasphemers against our lord jesus christ , as are on the earth ; yet it is not the mind of the lord they should be destroyed from the face of the earth , for how then should the scripture be fulfilled , wherein god hath promised to call them , and to make them the most glorious nation of the world ? oh how can they be converted , if they be not permitted where the gospel is preached ? we speak not this in favour of any blasphemy , for our souls abhor it ; but because we would have the lives of men as precious in thy eyes , o king , as they are in the eyes of the righteous and most holy god. answ . it is true , that i alledged in my serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy , the power of the kings of israel in spirituals , to prove the king to be governor in spiritual causes ; i did not , nor was it necessary i should assert the same power every way , or the justice of proceeding now by the same laws , which were in many things appropriate to the policy of that nation , nor am i of opinion , that the judicial laws of moses , bind us any farther then their common equity , nor do i think it necessary we should fetch our laws from them , they being in many things fitted to the policy of that people , which is different from ours . nor do i deny , that there is not the same reason of punishing some idolatry and blasphemy of professed christians , as was of punishing the idolatry and blasphemy of the israelites , in the worshipping of the golden calf , baal , ashtaroth , molech , there being such special warnings given them before , such great things done by god for them , as made their engagement greater , and their revolt to other gods , worse , and more detestable then in other people ; and if it be true which dr. john burges in his rejoinder to the reply to bishop mortons defence of the three ceremonies , that the popish idolatry is not so bad as the israelites , then there may be cause why that idolatry which the papists use , should not be punished with death , though the worship of the golden calf , baal , molech , and such idols were . and for some blasphemies against christ , as the messiah or son of god , and some errours or heresies , which under the name of blasphemies have been punished with death , and perhaps by laws in force are liable to the same punishments , i dare not say that they are equally evil , or to be punished as the blasphemy of the mungrel was , lev. . , , . nor do i take upon me to justifie those laws by which death is awarded to heretiques , nor to avow the sentences that have been past against persons , as heretiques , because condemned by canons of councils . he that should now enact a law to put men to death for breaking the sabbath , because god did so appoint it , numb . . . in the case of him that gathered the sticks on the sabbath day ; or should make a law , that the father and mother of a stubborn son , should bring him to the elders of the city to be stoned to death , as it is deut. . , , , . should , as it is said of draco the athenian , write his laws in blood . i deny not but that in the new testament , punishments are put off to the last judgement , that christ hath told us , mark . . that all sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men , and blasphemies wherewithsoever they shall blaspheme , excepting that against the holy ghost , that john . , , , . christ ( if that story be genuine ) would not condemn the woman taken in adultery , but rather furthered her escape from stoning , that the gospel we live under is another dispensation , as the petitioners speak , meaning , that it is not so severe and rigid a covenant , as the law was , that the law was given by moses , but grace and truth came by jesus christ , john . . and therefore i count them too severe beyond christian moderation , that inflict death , imprisonment , banishment for some errours termed heresies , for non-conformity to some forms of worship , for some conceived blasphemies : some eminent protestants have been censured as too cruel , even by men of great understanding for their severity in these things . according to this determination , a prevention may be made of destroying such a blasphemer as paul or the jews , and yet the kings supremacy proved from the example of the kings of israel , even in spirituals , which may be exercised for publique peace , and common good , if good caution be used , without such direful and cruel persecutions as have been . a fathers power may be proved from the law , deut. . , , , . though that law stand not in force , and so may the kings power in causes ecclesiastical be proved , from the power of the kings of israel , though it be denied , that he is to punish idolatry , blasphemy , heresie , as they did , or some would now have it once more say the petitioners ; . as it is no wayes lawful from the word of god , for christian magistrates to destroy and root out the contrary minded in religious matters , ( although idolaters ) so such proceedings may many times prove inconsistent with the very being of nations ; for suppose any nation were wholly heathenish idolaters , and the word of god coming in amongst them , should convert the chief magistrates , and twentieth part of the nation more ; must he with that twentieth part destroy all the other nineteen , if they will not be converted , but continue in their heathenish idolatry ? it cannot possibly be supposed warrantable . answ . all this may be granted . the spaniards practice in destroying the americans , is condemned by bartholomew de casa , a spanish bishop , their practises in their bloody inquisition are abhorred by all sober people , that are not made drunk with the wine of the whore of babylons fornications ; few men of good temper and wisdome , do allow making war to propagate religion : the zeal of princes and bishops , in persecuting christians , adjudged heretiques by them , is censured as madness by well composed men . in the multitude of people is the kings honour : but in the want of people is the destruction of the prince , prov. . . thou shalt not be joyned in burial , because thou hast destroyed thy land , and slain thy people , isa . . . doubtless a prince ought to be tender of his subjects , as of his children , and yet he may correct them , and though he be not to destroy those that remain infidel-idolaters , nor to force them to be christians , yet he may have a power to govern in things spiritual . and this if wisely and uprightly managed , may be of great advantage to the church of god , and is not to be denied because he doth , much less because he may , or we are jealous he will abuse it . thus much be said in answer to those petitioners . afore the first sheet of this supplement was printed off , i met with a little piece , intituled , a caution to the sons of zion , by samuel hodgkin , in which he grants assertory oaths in judicial proceedings not to be forbidden by christ , mat. . . because commanded in the law of moses , and overthrows the quakers plea , that no swearing is lawful , yet denies any promissory oath lawful , and therefore in that respect opposeth the oaths of allegiance and supremacy , and saith he is imprisoned for that reason . in that book , he first excepts against the definition jeremiah ives gave of a sacred oath , that it is a bond by which a man binds his soul to the speaking of that which is in it self true , or the doing of that which is in it self lawful , unto which the living and true god is called to witness , numb . . . to which samuel hodgkin faith , to this i answer , that every sacred oath by which god is called to witness to the truth of a thing , or to the performance of a lawful thing , is a bond whereby the soul is bound , but every calling god to witness in lawful things , is not an oath . as appears thus , if a bare calling god to witness , be swearing by god , then calling the heaven and earth to witness , is swearing by heaven and earth , for then moses had sworn by creatures , deut. . . i call heaven and earth to witness against you this day ; and so likewise god himself , in deut. . . i call heaven and earth to record against you , chap. . . but it was ever unlawful to swear by creatures , therefore i conclude , that a bare calling to witness ; is not swearing . i reply , the conclusion is granted , and yet the definition of jeremiah ives stands good , who did not say , that a bare calling to witness , is swearing , but calling god to witness to the speaking of that which is true . and this to be an oath is granted by samuel hodgkin himself , p. . when he saith , that calling god to witness is not swearing ; but when we read of the servants of the lord swearing in scripture , we find that it was not only a bare calling god to witness , but they swear by god , that they did speak the truth , or that they would do such a thing . now swearing by god at least in assertory oaths , can be no other then calling god to witness of the truth of that we speak , and in promissory of the truth of our intention to perform what we say we will do . that which samuel hodgkin saith , now to swear by the lord , is to say that they do speak the truth , or will do such a thing by the lord , as much as if they should say , that the lord do help them in what they do , or that they do it by his assistance : and hence it comes to pass , that it was unlawful for a man to swear by any creature , because no creature can help him to speak the truth , or perform what he promised ; and hence it is that god took it ill when they did not speak truth , because they did as much as say , that god did help them to speak a lie , and so they blasphemed the name of god in the highest nature ; and doubtless , those that made the oath we have in our common law , did understand no less , and therefore they charge the witness , by the help of god to speak the truth , is a manifest mistake of the meaning of the phrase [ to swear by the lord ] which it seems he understands to signifie , not only that he that swears calls god to be a witness of the truth of what he saith in assertory oaths , and of the truth of his intentions to perform what he saith in promissory oaths , but also , that he calls god to witness , that he speaks truth by his help , or god helping him to speak truth in assertory oaths , and that his intention is to perform what he promiseth , by gods help or assistance . so that according to this mans conceits , it is no swearing , unless the person swearing do call god to be witness , not only of the truth of his words and intentions , but also of his acknowledging of gods help in speaking truth in assertory oaths , and his expectation of gods help to perform what he saith he will do in promissory ; which is a new and wild conceit . new , for none , as far as i know , ever vented it before ; but all writers that i have met with , have made the calling of god to witness the truth of our speech in assertory oaths , and of our intentions to perform , what we say in promissory , without this addition of acknowledging , that it is by gods help we speak truth , or of expectation of help from god to do , what we promise , to be swearing . and it is a wild conceit . for . it is frivolous to call god to witness , that he speaks truth by his help , or that he expects his help to do what he promiseth , it being impertinent to the occasion and end of swearing ; the occasion of swearing being some uncertainty of the truth of his words and intentions , and the end to take away that , there is no question or controversie to be decided by whose help he speaks truth , nor by whose help he expects to perform what he promiseth . every man knowes , that what is spoken or done , is by gods help , else it could not be ; but whether it be certainly true which he affirms , and his intentions true and real to perform , the consideration by whose help he speaks , or expects to do what he promiseth , is not at all required or minded by the exactor of the oath , as belonging to the oath , but the acknowledging that he speaks truth by gods help , is only a duty of thankfulness , which is fittest to be done by the person swearing after the oath is taken , and the expectation of help from god to perform what he promises , is a duty of trust in god , or dependance on him to be done after the swearing . . if this were necessary to an oath , then he were forsworn or unsworn , that did not acknowledge , that he spake truth by gods help , or did not depend on gods help for performance of what he promised , and all infidels , hypocrites , saints that neglect their duty herein , let their words or intentions be never so true , and their performance never so punctual and exact , should be perjured or unsworn . that which he alledgeth for this conceit , is frivolous . for the unlawfulness of swearing by any creature , is not , because no creature can help him that swears to speak the truth , or perform what he promised ; he that informs him of the truth , may help the swearer to speak truth , though he be a creature , and he that will aid him with money , &c. may help him to perform what he promised ; but because god only is a witness of secret truths , and sincerity of intentions , and can only be his judge and avenger if he speak not truth , and therefore more fully oaths are expressed in such forms as these , god be my judge , witness , helper , &c. nor is the reason , why god takes it ill that men swear falsly by his name , because it is as much as to say , that god did help them to speak a lie , for then in promissory oaths when they swearby god , he should take it ill if they do not perform their promise , because it is as much as to say , that god helps them to neglect their promise ; which is a sense no swearer imagins his words bear , nor any reprover of perjury , did ever give as the reason of the iniquity of the breaker of his oath : but because he by false swearing shews he either believes not , or fears not gods discovery , or avenging of his deceit . in the form of swearing in our common law , so help me god , the words are not in the indicative mood , as if it were god doth help me , or will help me , but ita me deus adiuvet in the imperative or potential , let god help me , may god help me , i pray or wish god may help me , or not according as i speak , truly or otherwise , nor is the charge given by the giver of the oath to the witness , by the help of god to speak truth , but he requires him to speak truth , as he expects help from god in other things , as his salvation , &c. when the swearer speaketh the words , it is his pawning his help he expects from god , as a voucher that he speaks truth ; not an acknowledging he speaks truth by gods helping him only in that act of speaking . as for what he alledgeth out of deut. . . and . . and . . to prove that all calling to witness is not swearing , it is granted him . i easily yield , that men and inanimate things may be taken to witness without swearing , as gen. . . josh . . . but nevertheless calling god to witness that we speak truth , or intend as we speak is swearing : even as though such rhetorical speeches as are used , isa . . . jer. . , &c. are not prayers ; or invitations to hear , yet the words of solomon , kin. . , . are prayer , so though it be not swearing which is used , deut. . . yet it is swearing which is used , cor , . . another thing which samuel hodgkin affirms , is , that all promissory oaths are forbidden by christ , mat. . . jam. . . he grants assertory oaths not forbidden , because they were commanded in the old testament , exod. . . but denies promissory oaths to be lawful , because they are voluntary , and the occasion of the precept was about voluntary oaths , ver . . and therefore they are wholly forbidden , but not assertory . whence he infers , that the oaths of allegiance and supremacy , so far as they are promissory are forbidden . concerning this opinion , i deny not , but that there are learned men that conceive , that promissory oaths of secular matters , especially of small moment , are forbidden , because of the occasion , ver . . of the prohibition , mat. . . but if promissory oaths be forbidden universally , then the promissory oaths to the lord are forbidden , and not only oaths of secular matters between man and man. and if all promissory oaths be forbidden , the swearing according to our common law , not excepted against by s. h. should be unlawful . for thus usually is the witness sworn , you shall make true answer to such questions as shall be demanded of you : you shall speak the truth , the whole truth , nothing but the truth . the jury thus , you shall well and truly trie , and true deliverance make ; all which are requiring of a promise ; and so exacting a promissory oath . but that promissory oaths are not universally forbidden , i prove , . from thes . . . where the apostle urgeth the thessalonians thus , i adjure you by the lord , that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren . that this passage contains urging by oath , hath been proved before in my serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy , and in this supplement in my reply to richard hubberthorn and samuel fisher . but this oath which he urgeth on them , was promissory , it being of a thing to be done by them , to wit , the reading of that epistle to all the holy brethren . whence i argue , that sort of oath by which paul adjured , bound , or urged the thessalonians , was lawful , else the apostle would not have urged it , or them by it . but paul adjured , bound by , or urged the thessalonians by a promissory oath , therefore a promissory oath is lawful in the new testament . that which samuel hodgkin saith , that the text speaks not a word of swearing , is not true , the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies i adjure , or urge you by oath , it is the same word that is used , mat. . . which samuel hodgkin himself , p. . denies not to have been a charging christ to swear by the living god , saving that mat. . . it is the compound verb , but thes . . . the simple . but saith samuel hodgkin , were it not more reasonable to think , that if the thessalonians did value pauls charge , they would as soon have read this epistle without swearing , as to be sworn to read it ? for doubtless , if they had not valued his charging them to read it , they would not have valued his charging them to swear to read it . i reply , whether the thessalonians did value pauls charge or no , cannot be determined by us , but this we know , that adjuring or urging by oath , being a stricter bond , then urging to promise , or requiring without an oath , it may well be conceived , that the apostle had reason to charge them by oath , and not barely to charge them without it . . i urge that passage , heb. . . an oath for confirmation , is to men an end of all strife , of which samuel hodgkin , p. . grants , that it contains the end of oaths commanded , and so cannot in reason deny , that those oaths which are there meant , having the end of swearing are lawful . but that passage speaks of the end of promissory oaths , ( for such was gods oath , of which the apostle there speaks , ver . . , . ) and therefore they have the end of swearing to take away strife or contradiction , or doubt concerning mens intentions and purposes one to another , and so are for a necessary use , and consequently , lawful . . the angels swearing , rev. . . that there should be time no longer , was of a thing future , and therefore to be reduced to promissory oaths , if the division of oaths into assertory and promissory be full , it cannot be reduced to assertory oaths , therefore it must be reduced to promissory , and therefore promissory oaths are not wholly forbidden . . that which the psalmist makes a property of one that was to dwell in gods holy hill , psal . . was moral , and so not unlawful , as abrogated in the new testament , but when he saith , a person making a promissory oath is not to change , that is , not to neglect to keep it , though it be to his own hurt , he allows a promissory oath , as in some cases lawful . . add hereto , that a promissory oath if unlawful , is so , either because it is swearing , and then all swearing should be unlawful , contrary to the grant concerning assertory oaths , by samuel hodgkin , if as promissory , then all promises should be unlawful , and so all civil contracts unlawful , marriage , covenants , &c. . if no promissory oaths be lawful to a christian , then a christian prince may not confirm a league with another prince or state , nor any magistrates , officers of justice , take promissory oaths , no souldiers , no trustees , secretaries , &c. are to make promissory oaths of faithfulness , which would expose all affairs of government and trust , to such hazard and uncertainty , as would take away , as things and men are , much of that security men have in their affairs , and hasten the ruine of states . that which samuel hodgkin saith , that there is no command for promissory oaths , is said without proof . for the precepts , deut. . . deut. . . jer. . . do include promissory oaths , as well as assertory . as there is no difference made in the text , so there is as much if not more likelihood , that promissory oaths should be chiefly meant , because the oaths of which we have examples in the old testament , are most of them promissory . 't is true , mat. . . speaks of promissory oaths , but that the prohibition , ver . . is limited to promissory , as forbidding them only , and not assertory , or forbidding promissory oaths universally , so as to allow none of that sort , is said without proof , and there is this in the text to shew , that it is meant not of those promissory oaths , which are meant , ver . . to wit , special vows to god ; but of other oaths , whether promissory or assertory , which are in our ordinary speech , . that the forms of oaths , by the heaven , by the earth , by jerusalem , by the head , there expressed , are not used in special vowes , but in common speech of one man with another , and most likely in customary , light , needless , passionate swearing . . the expression [ let your communication or speech ] notes their conference one with another . . and so do the terms , yea and nay , which are used most fitly in colloquies or speeches , wherein one answers another . finis . iehovah iireh: or, gods providence in delivering the godly. opened in two sermons in the citie of bristoll, on the day of publike thanksgiving in that citie, march . . for the deliverance of that citie from the invasion without, and the plot of malignants within the city, intended to have been acted the tuesday night before. with a short narration of that bloody and abominable plot. preached by iohn tombes, b.d. it is this two and twentieth day of aprill, anno dom. . ordered by the committee of the house of commons in parliament concerning printing, that this booke intituled, johovah jireh, or gods providence in delivering the godly, be printed. john white. tombes, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t thomason e _ this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) iehovah iireh: or, gods providence in delivering the godly. opened in two sermons in the citie of bristoll, on the day of publike thanksgiving in that citie, march . . for the deliverance of that citie from the invasion without, and the plot of malignants within the city, intended to have been acted the tuesday night before. with a short narration of that bloody and abominable plot. preached by iohn tombes, b.d. it is this two and twentieth day of aprill, anno dom. . ordered by the committee of the house of commons in parliament concerning printing, that this booke intituled, johovah jireh, or gods providence in delivering the godly, be printed. john white. tombes, john, ?- . england and wales. parliament. house of commons. aut [ ], p. printed by rich. cotes, for michael sparkes senior, london : . annotation on thomason copy: "may. ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng bristol (england) -- history -- siege, -- sermons -- early works to . great britain -- history -- civil war, - -- early works to . a (thomason e _ ). civilwar no iehovah iireh: or, gods providence in delivering the godly.: opened in two sermons in the citie of bristoll, on the day of publike thanksgi tombes, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion iehovah iireh : or , gods providence in delivering the godly . opened in two sermons in the citie of bristoll , on the day of publike thanksgiving in that citie , march . . for the deliverance of that citie from the invasion without , and the plot of malignants within the city , intended to have been acted the tuesday night before . with a short narration of that bloody and abominable plot . preached by iohn tombes , b. d. it is this two and twentieth day of aprill , anno dom. . ordered by the committee of the house of commons in parliament concerning printing , that this booke intituled , johovah jireh , or gods providence in delivering the godly , be printed . john white . london printed by rich. cotes , for michael sparkes senior , . to the noble and right worthy patriots , colonell nathaniel fiennes governour , colonell richard cole , colonell alexander popham , and to the rest of the worthy commanders , and souldiers in the city of bristoll . as it is a certaine truth , that no events happen without god , so it is most certaine that all events are ordered by gods wisedome to excellent purposes . the utmost and meet end of all gods actions is himselfe , that as all things are of him , and through him , so all things may bee to him , rom. . . the subordinate and nearer ends are many and various as the almighty sees conducible to his glory which is the utmost . and thus are wee to conceive that in the ordering of the present commotions of this land the lord hath sundry ends , whereby he will in fine shew himselfe great in counsell , though as yet we can hardly discerne whereto they tend . among many other ends he hath , these two seeme most apparent , the discovery of men , and the discovery of himselfe . for whereas on the one side the bloody minded papists , the proud sensuall libertines , the jugling deceitfull priests and prelats had gotten the reputation of honest men , and on the other side the sincere , zealous and faithfull christian suffered all indignities under the imputations of hypocrisie , covetousnesse , faction and such like calumnies ; now by these present tryalls the integrity , faithfulnesse and courage of the one , the hypocrisie , falsehood , and wickednesse of the other are made manifest . and whereas the frequency of prophane oathes , and atheisticall perjuries , the scorne of religion , derision of piety , and contempt of holinesse had worne out the apprehensions of god , and imboldned men to play with him as a contemptible name , god hath begun to discover himselfe , and yet further will in time appeare to be the great lord of hoasts , and the protector of his despised , and oppressed people . in reference to the later of these forenamed ends god hath vouchsafed to discover many plots , to give many deliverances , to doe great things in these few yeares last past for the vindicating of his owne name , the worth and innocency of his people ▪ and declaration of the malignitie of ungodly spirits . among which that which he did in preserving of this city in the late deliverance hereof is not the least , being in the apprehension of those that know all the circumstances and the concurrence of gods providence therein , a very remarkable & memorable thing . in the commemoration and acclamation thereof it pleased god that by the appointment of one of you i should have a part , having by gods providence bin driven hither for shelter against the unreasonable & impetuous violence of superstitious people enraged by the instigations of bloody minded papists , corrupt priests , and loose libertines . since which time i have been sollicited to publish these subitany meditations : though the matter deserves a more full discovery and an exacter commentary . neverthelesse that the remembrance hereof might not die , and that some light might bee added to them that seeke out gods workes as having pleasure therein , i have yeelded to their request . and forasmuch as the deliverance in the first place belonged to your selves as first destinated to slaughter , and my worke in the t●anksgiving proceeded from you , i have conceived it meetest to tender these sermons to you for your acceptance and use , praying the almighty still to preserve your persons and to direct your wayes for the publike good and your own salvation . in both which to serve you continueth yours in all humble observance , john tombes . a short narration of the late bloody and abominable conspiracy against the city of bristoll , as appeareth by the examination of the parties thereunto . . amalignant and treacherous party within this city , having long endeavoured to bring in the forces of the enemy into this city , they hoped that they had gotten an opportunity to effect their designe on tuesday night last being the seventh of march , when by their invitation prince rupert having drawne a great party of horse and dragoones with some foote to durdum downe , within two miles of this citie , the evening before that night , these treacherous and bloody persons within the towne had framed a party to fall upon the backes of the guards , and to surprize them and cut them off , and to let in the enemy , who upon the ringing of two bells , viz s. iohns and s. michaels , were to give on upon the towne without , as the conspirators were to fall upon the guards within . the ringing of these two bells being a common signe unto them both within and without the towne . for the better effecting of this trayterous and wicked conspiracy , the chiefe heads thereof had that night assembled together in their houses those of their confederacy , with divers saylers and halliers with all sorts of armes , muskets , pistolls , swords , clubs , and barrells of old nayles to charge the ordnance withall after they had furprised them . and these severall companies under their severall leaders were to have fallen upon the severall courts of guards ; master robert yeomans ( who is the head of this conspiracy and pretendeth a commission from his majesty for what he hath done ) being to fall upon the maine guard , and master george butcher with his company was to have fallen upon the guard at froome gate , and to have opened it for the enemy to enter by : others no doubt had their parts to play , and the better to distinguish themselves from those that were destinated to destruction , those that were of their party had a word which was ( charles ) and certaine markes of white tape tied upon their breasts before , and their hats behind , and such as were to be spared within doores had certaine markes set upon the inside of their doores ; for the rest ( if we may believe the speeches of an officer amongst the enemies forces ) one of them was heard to say that prince rupert had commanded them to give no quarter , but to kill man , woman and child that had not those markes upon their persons and houses . and that at the same time that they were to fall into the towne , the saylers were to set the towne on fire in severall parts ; ( which is conceived should have been captaine boones part ) but god of his mercy delivered us from this dangerous and devillish conspiracy , by some notice that we had given unto us of their meeting at yeomans his house , about an houre or two before the plot was to have beene put in exeeution , which was to have been upon the ringing of the bells about one or two a clocke in the morning . having seized on master robert yeomans with his company , and after , butcher with his company , the necke of the plot being broken within the towne , the enemy without ( whose designe as it should seeme depended much upon it ) having showne themselves upon the downe the next morning after two or three shot of canons made against them from our worke upon brandon hill , they wheeled off , and so god put a hook into their nostrills , and turned them back againe : for which great mercy of his in delivering us from a dangerous invasion of the enemy without , and from a damnable conspiracy of some traytorous inhabitants within the city ; both this towne and the whole kingdome ( so far as it is concerned in the preservation of this city ) hath great cause to give thanks to almighty god , unto whom alone the glory thereof is due . this is a short narration of the late detestable and bloody plot against this city , whereof no doubt more hereafter will appeare , the matter being yet under examination , onely one writing which was found in robert yeomans his house , i thought fit to adde , which was as followeth . all inhabitants of the bridge , the high-street and cornestreete , keepe within your doores upon perill of your lives : all other inhabitants of this citie that stand for the king , the protestant religion and the liberties of this city , let them forthwith appeare at the high crosse with such armes as they have for the defence of their lives , their wives and children , and follow their leaders for the same defence . there was also a protestation taken amongst them to this effect , that they would oppose to the utmost of their power , all forces whatsoever that were , or should be amongst them , or that should come in without the consent of the king . iehovah iireh . peter . . the lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation , and to reserve the unjust to the day of judgement to be punished . this passage containes two consectaries deduced from the , , . verses ; the apostle had advised christians to take heed unto the sure word of prophecy , chap. . vers . . as being a light shining in a darke place , not from a private delivery by the will of man , but by the motion of the holy ghost , vers . , . withall he foretells , chap. . . that as there had been false prophets among the people , so there should be false teachers among them , whose practise he declares , vers . , , . and their judgement , vers . . which he confirmes by three instances . of gods not sparing the angels that sinned , ver. . his bringing in the flood upon the world of ungodly , but saving noah a preacher of righteousnesse , vers . . his overthrow of sodom and gomorrah , and delivering just lot , vers . , . from these instances he inferres by an induction two rules to be observed in the course of gods proceedings . first , that he knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation . secondly , that he knoweth how to reserve the unjust to the day of judgement to be punished . the particle [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , for if ] vers . . shewes these instances to be brought as a medium to prove a conclusion , and the argument is thus . if god even then when he cast the angels that sinned downe to hell , yet preserved the guiltlesse angels , and even then when he brought the deluge on the wicked world , saved noah a preacher of righteousnesse , and even then when he overthrew sodom and gomorrah , delivered just lot , & sic in caeteris , then it followes as in my text , the lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation , &c. the former of these two consectaries i have chosen this day to insist on , being a day set apart for the commemoration of a late deliverance of this city from a blood , and abominable conspiracy within it , wherein god hath added one more memorable instance to verifie this rule of saint peter , the lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation . two conclusions may from hence be gathered . first , that the godly while they live among unjust men upon the earth be in temptation . deliverance from temptation presupposeth a being in temptation . secondly , that god knowes how to deliver them though they know not ; noah and lot knew not how they should be delivered , but god knew how to do it . to confirme the former of these we need not many scriptures , it being proved by continuall experience , yet i shall produce some , luk. . . our lord christ saith of himselfe , yee are they which have continued with me in my temptations . our lord christ when he lived on earth , was in continuall temptations , and what was christs estate is the estate of all christians comformably ; saint paul of himselfe , act. . . saith , that he served the lord with all humility of mind , and with many teares and temptations which befell him by the lying in waite of the jewes , and heb. . . among other things that befell the saints it is said they were tempted . temptation then is one of those things that are the lot of the godly . i shall endeavour to open this truth , by inquiring ; first , who are to be accounted godly ; secondly , what temptation they are under ; thirdly , why it is so with them ? in answer to the first we may take notice that the word we translate godly in grecke {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is as much as in english right worshippers . so they that be right worshippers are godly persons ; the etymology fitly expresseth the thing : now by worship is meant the honour and service that is done unto a god . for godlinesse implies religious service , and all that religious service we performe to any thing under the notion of a god , that is worship : and it is mediate , or immediate ; mediate service is that which is directed to man , yet by reason of respect unto god . for this is a cleare truth , that even all the duties of righteousnesse we performe to men , if they be done in obedience to god , they are part of his service and worship , not in respect of the matter wherein , but in respect of the motive by which they are performed . thus when a servant doth discharge his duty faithfully to his master as doing the will of god from the heart , hee is said to doe service to the lord , ephes. . , , . colos. . . every servant that obeyes his master , every child that honours his father , every souldier that obeyes his commander out of conscience to god , not for wages , portion , applause or the like respects onely , therein hee worships god . immediate worship is that which is directed onely to god . and this hath by use engrossed the name of worship . now when this is not right worship , though men bee never so devout in it , yet they are not godly persons : when the priests of baal called on the name of baal from morning even till noone , saying , o baal heare us , though they cryed aloud and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lances till the blood gushed out upon them , kings . . . yet there was no godlinesse in all this . in like manner though the papists and other superstitious persons are very devout in their way , spend much time in prayer after their manner , fast often , and doe many laborious works for satisfaction of their sinnes , yet because they worship not god aright they are not godly persons . if it be then asked who are they that are right worshippers ? i answer . to right worshipping these things are requisite . first , they that are right worshippers worship onely the true god ; whosoever he be that gives religious worship of any sort to any other besides the lord jehovah , whether it be inward worship of the soule , as trusting in it , loving it , fearing it , magnifying and extolling of it in their hearts , or outward worship , as by gesture of the body , kneeling , falling downe before it , bowing , lifting up the hands or eyes , kissing , or by offering of gifts , bringing oblation , incense , sacrifice , first fruits , tithes , or by swearing by them , praying to them , making vowes to them , blessing them , singing hymnes in their praise , consecrating temples , making priests , keeping holy dayes to them , ( for all these are religious worship ) whosoever i say gives any or more of these or any other sort of religious worship not mentioned to any besides the true god , is an idolater , and therefore not a right worshipper ; for this is the true definition of an idolater : whosoever gives divine worship to a creature is an idolater : as may be gathered from the apostles description of idolaters , rom. . . where it is charged upon them that they changed the truth of god , that is , the invisible power and majesty of god , which they knew by the things that are made , vers . , , , . into a lie , that is , into a lying resemblance , and worshipped and served the creature , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} more then the creator , so our last translation hath it , but the better and true reading is , besides the creator . for it is plaine by the words , vers . . that they changed the glory of the incorruptible god into an image made like to corruptible man , and vers . . that they changed the truth of god into a lie , and therefore they worshipped the creature more then the creator : but this was their idolatry that they worshipped the creator by a lying resemblance , and so worshipped the creature besides the creator . so then this is the first note of a right worshipper , that hee worships with religious worship none but jehovah the true god . secondly , they that are right worshippers as they worship onely the true god , so they direct this worship only by the true mediatour , which is jesus christ the son of god . he onely is a right worshipper , that worships god in christ , whosoever he be that makes any other mediator unto god , let him be called mediator of redemption or of intercession , it is against the true worshipping of god , and an high violation of the glory of jesus christ . for as the apostle tells us , tim. . . there is one god and one mediator betweene god and man , even the man christ jesus ; no more mediators are acknowledged by the apostle , then there be gods . to us there is but one god the father , of whom are all things , and we in him , and one lord jesus christ , by whom are all things , and we in him , cor. . . therefore the true worshippers are described to be such as rejoyce in christ jesus , phil. . . that glory in him as their lord and mediator . thirdly , they that are right worshippers , worship the true god by the true mediator according to the true rule , that is , they worship the true god according to his owne prescription , and appointment , not according to mens devices and inventions . for as our saviour tells us , matth. . . in vaine doe they worship god , who teach for doctrines the commandements of men . hee that shall goe as far as hierusalem to visit christs sepulchre , that shall sprinkle himselfe with holy water , keepe reliques of saints , observe old customes of former christians , abstaine from eating flesh , if he could keepe all the traditions of men , not faile in any point of ceremony , and thereby thinke to please god as if hee did him honour , thereby shall not onely misse of his end , but also instead thereof provoke the wrath of god against himselfe through his superstition . let all superstitious persons who are very devout in their way , know this for a certaine truth , that god doth not esteeme them as godly persons , because they are not right worshippers of god . the godly have the law of god in their heart , psal. . . and according to it , endeavour to walke in all duties of his worship . fourthly , right worshippers worship god for a right end , that they may honour him and exalt him in their soules , and give him glory . the pharisees matth. . . prayed to god , gave almes , and no doubt also brought their sacrifices to gods altar , yet neverthelesse they were adjudged hypocrites , because they did these things that they might bee seene of men . and the same censure belongs to all others that shall pray , preach , heare , or performe any other duty of gods worship that they may gaine a name of religious persons , and not chiefely for the glory of god that his name may be sanctified , whosoever misseth the right end of worship , loseth the title of a godly man . fiftly , right worshippers worship god from a right principle . two principles of our worship are necessary that our worship be right . first , the spirit of god ; no man can worship the lord in truth , unlesse the spirit of god dwell and act in him , cor. . . no man can say that jesus is the lord but by the holy ghost . secondly , a right faith , without which a man cannot worship truely , for the doctrine of our lord jesus is the doctrine which is according to godlinesse , tim. . . the mystery of godlinesse , tim. . . the faith of gods elect , the acknowledging of the truth , which is after godlinesse , tit. . . whence i inferre that to godlinesse is requisite an acknowledgement of the truth , and that onely the true faith is that which begets godlinesse . wherefore all hereticall persons that hold falsehoods against the fundamentall truths of the gospell cannot be right worshippers ; a corrupt faith doth beget a corrupt worship . sixtly , right worshippers must worship god with right affection . they that worship god truely must worship god in spirit and truth , joh. . , . we are the circumcision which worship god in the spirit , phil. . . that is , that worship god , not onely with the outward man , but also in the inward man , with knowledge , love , zeale , reverence , obedience , &c. secondly , these godly persons you heare are under temptations . temptation is as much as tryall . by temptations are meant sinfull and evill practises , and that both as sinfull and harmefull . for the conclusion being drawne from the instances before , vers . , , . it is to be conceived that the temptation that god knoweth how to deliver from , is the same with which noah and lot were exercised . now lot was exercised with the evill practises of the sodomites as they were sinfull , that righteous man dwelling amongst them , in seeing & hearing vexed his righteous soule from day to day with their unlawfull deeds , vers . . in like manner noah was tried by the corrupt doings of the old world . the sinfull and impure actions of evill men are temptations to the godly that live among them . likewise lot was exercised with their evill practises as they were harmefull . so you may reade gen. . . . that the sodomites compassed lots house , and would have broken in upon him , and violated the strangers that came into his house . and accordingly , to deliver from temptation , is not onely to deliver from the infection of sin , but also to deliver from mischievous massacres , violations , breaking open of houses , spoyling , persecution , combinations , reproaches , taunts and all other injurious usages godly men are in danger to meete with . now these are called temptations . first , partly because they are provocations to sin , for a man that lives among wicked men is not onely by example provoked to imitate them , but also by continuall and incessant molestations , driven to doe as they doe , for their owne ease , quiet , and security , and drawne by their flatteries , and wiles to comply with them , and thereby tempted . secondly , partly because they are exercises of patience , and constancy whereby the strength and stedfastnesse of beleevers is tryed . now for the reasons hereof . first , the first is from the innate hatred and malice that is in the heart of all unrighteous men towards the godly . there is a venomous malignity in the heart of wicked men towards the godly , be they as neere to them as the wife in the bosome , or the childe that is the fruite of their loynes : though it may be smothered a while in the heart , yet it lurkes in the heart , and will flame forth when that which covers it is removed , and some occasion bring it forth into act . thus our saviour informes his disciples , joh. . . if yee were of the world the world would love his owne : but because ye are not of the world , but i have chosen you out of the world , therefore the world hateth y●u . and after him saint john . epist. . . marvell not my brethren if the world hate you . even as there is a naturall antipathy between some beasts , as a wolfe will worry and devoure a lambe , though it lye downe quietly by it , so there is a secret antipathy betweene an ungodly and a godly person , though never so willing to live in peace . hence it is a sport to them to doe mischiefe , a contentfull thing to vex them . if they heare evill of them , they will beleeve and divulge it ; if they have ascoffe to flout them with , they will vent it ; if they have a desire to harme them , they will practise it . and that they hate them because they are godly , appeares by the falshood of their pretences for their hatred . they pretend they hate them for censuring them , sometimes for faction , turbulency , sedition , sometimes for hypocrisie and such like pretences . and yet who more censorious , factious , turbulent , seditious , fals-hearted than themselves ? or whom doe they favour more than such persons ? doubtlesse if the godly were such , they would love them as being like themselves . search the matter to the bottome , and it will appeare that these are but colours to cloke their hatred with from the eyes of men . it appeares by the universality of their hatred to godly persons . if their hatred were particular to some , it might be surmised it came from some particular cause of difference . but experience shewes it to be generall , their spirits are imbittered against those that they never had any dealing with , their hearts rise against those they never saw , if they heare or conceive them to be precisians , puritans , round-heads , or if there be any other appellation by which they denominate godly persons . though the same persons were delightfull to them before , though they were esteemed & praysed by them , yet when once they begin to be godly they loath them , vilifie them , abuse them . it appeares further , in that they hate them notwithstanding neare relations , by reason of which nature teacheth them to love them . an unrighteous father or mother will not brooke a righteous child , an idolatrous , husband will not agree with an holy wife : they that agree not in the true worship of the same god , cannot agree among themselves . besides this hatred is implacable , without mercy : there must be no favour shewed to a puritan , when a papist , a drunkard , a thiefe , a wandring rogue shall finde favour , come off easily in any tryall , be remitted any wrong ; but no plea , no intercession , no deprecation shall prevaile to save a godly person from the extremity of oppression . secondly , ungodly men are of unquiet spirits , they are like satan that never rests , matth. . . the wicked , saith the prophet , isay . . are like the troubled sea , when it cannot rest , whose waters cast up mire and dirt . they are still surmising some evill , or inventing some evill , or speaking some evill of them , or acting some evill against them . it is wages enough for them to doe hurt to godly men , though they hazard life , estate , credit , and their soules too , yet they are furiously carried to doe them mischiefe , come say they , jer. . . let us devise devises against jeremiah ; come let us smite him with the tongue . they devise mischiefe on their beds ; they set themselves in a way that is not good : they ab●erre not evill , psal. . . they sleepe not except they have done mischiefe , and their sleepe is taken away unlesse they cause some to fall , prov. . . thirdly , they be injurious . the best of them , saith the prophet , is a briar ; the most upright is sharper then a thorne hedge , micah . . take the best , that is , the most civill , ingenuous , regular , of unregenerate men , superstitious people , carnall worldlings , lukewarme formalists , they cannot brooke a zealous religious person , if they cannot wound deadly they will scratch and teare their flesh , if they cannot bite , they will barke and snarle at them . fourthly , they are proud , high conceited of themselves : but the godly are of no account in their eyes ; they conceive themselves gyants , godly men as pygmees ; now pride begets disdaine , and insolent behaviour . when pride compasseth them about as a chaine , violence covereth them as a garment , psal. . . when pride is in the heart there will bee spurning and trampling upon with feet . lastly , ungodly men are acted by satan , ephes. . he is the spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience . and they that are ruled by satan must needs doe what hurt they can to godly persons . when the devill entred into judas his heart he could not stay but goes out presently about his worke of betraying his master , john . . no sooner have they a commission from satan , but they are presently ready to execute it . and therefore it cannot bee but that while the godly live among the unjust they should be under temptations . applic. for application of this truth , we may be informed in the reason of the present mischievous carriage of unjust men towards the godly , why they now tempt them , not onely by perswasions to sinne with them , but also by scorning , contemning and injurious dealing , yea and ( as the present experience proves it true ) by mischievous plots to destroy them , and to root them out of the land of the living : the late example of their practises , which occasioned this dayes solemnity is a most remarkable instance of the malignity of spirit that is in the hearts of wicked men against godly persons . what the plot was you have heard from the relation read to you . i hope you thereby sufficiently apprehend the certainty and manner of it from their owne confessions , the mischievousnesse of it , how great it would have beene , if it had taken effect : and by something in the relation , as the securing of some persons and houses by privy markes , who were like themselves , and the destinating of others to a panolethrie , it appeares that it was carried with a hatred and enmity against godly persons , whom they have branded with the name of round-heads . i deny not but it hath beene alleadged , that the reason of this plot was loyalty to the king , that they might expell out of the citie , those that rebell against him , and admit his forces into it : concerning this matter it is needfull something be spoken . the constant protestation of the commanders and souldiers here is , that they will maintaine to the utmost of their power with their life and fortunes the kings majesties royall person , honour and estate . if any shall keepe this citie against the king , undoubtedly that person should be made an example by some heavy end . i hope none here have any such thoughts or purposes ; but that their ends are right to protect it for the king , and not against the king . but it will be said , how can that be , sith it is against his will ? his command is to the contrary ? concerning this , thus much is said , that even by the judgement of those persons against whom lies no exception it hath been granted , that sometimes it may not bee rebellion to resist the personall will and command of the king . i will alleadge three instances . the first out of a booke intituled the true difference betweene christian subjection and antichristian rebellion , composed by thomas bilson afterwards bishop of winchester , and in great power at court in king james his dayes , dedicated to queene elizabeth , and for ought can be gathered by the frequent printing of it , and the preferment of the author adjudged orthodox . in it there are these words . if a prince should goe about to subject his kingdome to a forraine realme , or change the forme of the commonwealth from imperie to tyranny or neglect the lawes established by common consent of prince and people to execute his owne pleasure : in these , and other cases which might be named , if the nobles and commons joyne together to defend their ancient , and accustomed liberty , regiment and lawes , they may not well be accounted rebels . and a little after . as i said then , so i say now , the law of god giveth no man leave to resist his prince : but i never said that kingdomes and common-wealths might not proportion their states as they thought best by their publike lawes , which afterward the princes themselves may not violate . by superiour powers ordained of god wee understand not onely princes , but all politicke states and regiments , somewhere the people , somewhere the nobles having the same interest to the sword that princes have in their kingdomes . and in kingdomes where princes beare rule by the sword , we doe not meane the princes private will against his lawes : but his precept derived from his lawes , and agreeing with his lawes : which though it be wicked , yet may it not be resisted of any subject with armed violence . marry when princes offer their subjects not justice ; but force : and despise all lawes to practise their lusts ; not every , nor any private man may take the sword to redresse the prince : but if the lawes of the land appoint the nobles as next to the king to assist him in doing right , and with-hold him from doing wrong , then bee they licensed by mans law , and so not prohibited by gods to interpose themselves for the safeguard of equity and innocency and by all lawfull and needfull meanes to procure the prince to be reformed : but in no case deprived where the scepter is inherited . the second instance is in king james , who in his answer to cardinall peron his oration to the three estates of france , speakes of the protestants in france , who had sundry times in the dayes of francis the second , charles the ninth , and henry the third , kings of france , taken up armes against the oppression of the guisian faction at court maintained by those kings , as of the kings best subjects , and that their civill warres was not taking up armes against their king , it was but standing on their guard ; which the event proved to be true . the third instance is the act of parliament confirming the treaty with the scots commissioners passed by our present king this very parliament , in which it was enacted , that the scots covenanters who had seized on edenborough castle , raised an army in scotland against the kings will , and entred england therewith , were neverthelesse on september . . to bee declared in all churches of this kingdome of england no rebells : from which also they were acquitted by our present king in their parliament of scotland . but it will bee said , that though things are carried never so violently or unjustly , yet christians are taught to suffer , not to resist . answ. it is true , wee may not resist authority ; but suffer under it , though proceeding unjustly . we are forbidden to resist not only the supreame , but also the meanest person in authority proceeding according to authority , that is , in a way of law judicially , though the proceedings be unjust , yet while the proceedings are according to authority , there is no resistance allowed but by suffering . but if so be that the proceeding be by meere violence , spoyling men of their goods , destroying , restrayning their persons without any legall charge , surely gods law hath not debarred men of the use of the law of nature , which directs a man to defend though not to revenge himselfe against violence ; suppose a prince should take with him a company of robbers and cut-throates , and set upon a subject by the high way , i would have it considered whether a traveller might not defend his person and goods : and in like manner may it be said concerning breaking into a mans house . though davids heart smote him when he cut off the lap of sauls garment , yet we reade not that he repented his gathering a band of men to him , his getting into strong holds for defence of himselfe against saul . if there were now any that had a hand in this wicked plot here present , i would speake to them by way of expostulation . what have the godly done , or what do they that there should bee such devices against them ? if it be said they are factious , and disturbe the land by their faction ; i would further know what is their faction ? doe they make a side or party to engrosse wealth , honour or secular power to themselves ? they strive much you will say to prevaile ; true , they strive , but for whom ? for themselves , or for god ? what is it they are earnest for ? is it not for a necessary reformation ? is it not that the holy ordinances of christ may bee kept from prophanation by the promiscuous admittance of all forts of open ungodly persons , drunkards , swearers , &c. unto them ? is it not that those inventions of men which are by many thought parts of gods worship , without which gods service is not well performed , and consequently superstitious in their use , may be removed ? is it not that gods worship may be reduced from a meere empty formality by saying prayers , & reading out of a book , to a lively & fruitful performing therof ? is it not that in stead of a swarm of ignorant ministers , that have not knowledge or skill to teach the principles of christian religion , of licentious , and lewd ministers that by their evill life are a shame to our religion , of meere worldlings , of proud ambitious ministers that seeke their owne things , and not the things of jesus christ , of corrupt ministers that are corrupt in their opinions , as in the doctrine of grace , christs presence in the eucharist , &c. there may be placed over the church of christ godly , able , painefull , orthodox ministers that may guide the people of god into the way of peace ? it it not that in stead of that kinde of discipline which all the world knowes hath beene used onely to draw mony out of mens purses , to oppresse godly persons , and holy exercises tending to promote knowledge and pietie under pretence of conventicles , to domineere and lord it over gods heritage , there might be a right way of discipline set up , tending to the right ordering and furthering of gods worship ? is it not that in stead of the increase of popery and the masse ( which are likely in time unlesse prevented to overgrow true religion ) preaching of christ may be promoted ? if this be their faction , so farre as i can conceive it is a faction for god , and they that ayme at their oppression for this cause , aime at the oppression of godlinesse and godly persons . secondly , wee may hence learne that they doe ill provide for their peace , that doe favour such unrighteous persons . if yee aske who doe so ? i answer ; first , they that choose to dwell neare them for worldly advantages : this was lots sinne and folly , gen. . , , , . who chose his habitation in sodom , because it had a pleasant and fruitfull situatuation , though the inhabitants were exceeding wicked before the lord . yee know how ill he sped by going to sodom , thinking to get more wealth he lost all . secondly , those that make marriages , leagues and bonds of amitie with them . usually such persons finde their marriages to be their misery , their friendship to be their snare . they that were mingled among the heathen learned their workes , and they became a snare to them , psal. . , . jehosaphat his joyning in affinitie with ahabs house occasioned the breaking of his ships , the corrupting of his family , and the destruction of many of his posterity . thirdly , those that connive , bolster up , plead for such men , it is usuall with god to make them a vexation in the conclusion to those that have upheld and pleaded for them . fourthly , those that commit power to them by choosing them to be magistrates and officers of trust ; they that put into imployment malignant spirits against the godly , must look to have a temptation and a snare by them . thirdly , it should warne us to take heed of unnecessary societie , with unjust and ungodly men : we are commanded not to be unequally yoaked with unbelevers , corinth . . . there must bee a separation from them , vers. . i cannot now examine the severall sorts and cases of separation both civill and ecclesiasticall . this in the generall may be said , he that heeds not to avoyd societie with ungodly men which is not needfull , doth certainly cast himselfe into temptation . fourthly , it should warne us how we deale with such kind of men when we are necessitated to have any thing to doe with them . it was the saying of david in his cygnea cantio , his last words , sam. . . . but the sonnes of belial shall be all of them as thor●es thrust away , because they cannot be taken with hands . but the man that shall touch them must be fenced with iron , and the staffe of a speare . he that must have to doe with wicked men had need be fenced with iron . if you aske how ? i answer . . be armed as lot was , with the spirit of mourning , ye must mourne for their sinnes as lot did here , pet. . . that righteous man dwelling among them in hearing and seeing vexed his righteous soule from day to day with their unlawfull deeds . if yee must be in their company , yet yee must not delight in their company : if yee doe , it is a signe yee are of the same disposition with them . there is sometimes a necessitie of their company by reason of naturall relation , neighbourhood , trading ; but there is a greater necessity that we mourne for their swearing , scoffing , lying , prophane speeches which we cannot remedy . . take heed of trusting them or hearkning to them , make them not of thy privie counsell , unlesse thou wouldst be betrayed by them . it is the prophet micah his use , mic. . , . because the best of them is a briar , trust not in a friend , put yee not confidence in a guide , keepe the doores of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosome . and the prophet jeremiah , chap. . . take yee heed every one of his neighbour , and trust yee not in any brother ; for every brother will utterly supplant , and every neighbour will walke with slanders . . thou must be wise in speaking to them , psal. . . i will keepe my mouth with a bridle , saith david , while the wicked is before me , when wee are in the company of evill men we have need looke to the motions of our tongues . . get patience , and meekenesse in bearing their injuries and reproaches . in such company thou shalt meete with temptations , and therefore shouldst be fitted to encounter with them . . be wise how thou doe reprove them : though reproofe bee a duty , yet it must bee well managed ; our saviours direction is , matthew . . give not holy things unto the dogs , neither cast pearles before swine lest they trample them under their feet , and turne againe and rend you . . endeavour by all good meanes to convert them . take heed of complying with them in their wayes , under pretence of turning them . that 's the ready way for them to glory and insult over thee and to harden themselves . but bee thou as a light shining before them to convince them , philippians . . . if wee cannot convert them , yet let us endeavour to restraine them by our authority , prayers and power with them . fiftly , it should admonish us to prepare our selves for these temptations : while yee live on earth yee shall not live in a heaven of saints , but in a world of ungodly men , and therefore make account of temptations and fit your selves for them ; yee that be here of this citie because god hath given you deliverance now , doe not grow secure , but thinke ye may have more trialls . remember the spirit of wicked men is restlesse , though they misse in one plot they will attempt another ; according to the spirit by which they are guided , as satan goes about seeking whom hee may devoure , so doe wicked men his agents . sixtly and lastly , herein is manifested the gratious providence of god for the godly , that though they are under temptations , yet they are delivered from them , though they walke among snares , though they are placed as christ saith as sheepe in the midst of wolves , a few weake sheepe in the middest of a great multitude of ravening wolves , yet the church is preserved , this is gods work ; so it was at this time in this city , a small company of godly persons preserved from a great number of malignant spirits within and without it : o let us admire the goodnesse of our god herein . it is the businesse of this day : doe it fully , let your spirits be raised up in admiration of gods care and working for his people . let your hearts and tongues magnifie god , and say , great is the lord , and great are his workes ▪ and great deliverances giveth he unto his people . happy o people saved by the lord . happy are they that be in such a case : yea rather happy are they that have the lord for their god . pet. . . the lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation , and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished . wee have considered in the morning the estate of the godly in respect of unjust men among whom they live : they are under temptation . we are now to consider their estate in respect of gods care and aspect to them . the lord knoweth how to deliver them . the truth emergent from hence is this . though it be that the godly while they live among unjust men be in temptation : yet god knowes how to deliver them . this is the expresse assertion of the text . the lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation . the phrase [ the lord knoweth ] imports both care , providence , and vigilancy to deliver , and also skill and wisdome how to contrive it , and consequently , certainty of deliverance . to like purpose are many other places of holy scripture , psal. . . the lord also will be a refuge for the oppressed , a refuge in times of trouble , psal. . . behold the eye of the lord is upon them that feare him : upon them that hope in his mercy , to deliver their soule from death . to make this truth a little more explicate , we are to consider , that this skill , vigilancy and providence of god in delivering the godly out of temptation , first , hath reference to divers sorts of deliverance . there are divers kinds of deliverance , and divers degrees in those kindes . there is a deliverance of the soule from the wrath of god . jesus that delivereth from the wrath to come , thess. . . a deliverance from the power and guilt of sinne , from the anguish and horrour of conscience , from desertion and apostasy . there are deliverances of the body , of the naturall life , from death , from teares , from sicknesse , from wants , from danger . the lord knowes how to accommodate his deliverance , to give deliverance according to what kind & degree he thinks meet . sometimes god delivers from death , psa. . . thou hast delivered my soule from death . sometimes by death , isa. . . the righteous perisheth and no man layeth it to heart ; and mercifull men are taken away , none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evill to come . see , the lord knowes sundry wayes of deliverance , not onely by keeping them from the hands of unjust men , but sometimes by letting them fall into their hands . secondly , it hath reference to the persons delivered . sometimes the lord delivers many , sometimes few , sometimes whole cities and people , sometimes a small remnant in them , rom. . . isa. . . though the number of the children of israel be as the sand of the sea , a remnant shall be saved : though there be great multitudes of men , yet a few shall be delivered . thirdly , it hath reference to the meanes of deliverance . sometimes the lord delivers by a visible power , sometimes the lord delivers by an invisible working , sometimes god delivers by putting a meere fancy into the mind of the enemy , somtimes by a reall accident unthought of : sam. . , . saul and his men , had encompassed david and his men round about to take him . but there came a messenger unto saul , saying , haste thee and come : for the philistines have invaded the land . wherefore saul returned from pursuing after david , and went against the philistines . sometimes the lord delivers by an angell , sometimes by men . that which the prophet speaketh , isa. . . is true of the meanes of deliverance . this also commeth forth from the lord of hoasts , who is wonderfull in counsell , and excellent in working . that we least dreame of , is oft times the meanes of deliverance ; that which we most hoped in , is oft times most unprofitable to us . fourthly , it hath reference to the case of the persons delivered . sometimes the unjust persons be many , strong , cunning , active , malicious : on the other side , the persons delivered are few , weake , distracted ▪ fearefull , simple , yet notwithstanding the lord knowes how to deliver them . even these poore ones are preserved , and those strong , cunning and active men misse of their prey ▪ fifthly , it hath reference to the time of delivery . gods skill , vigilancy , and providence is clearely seene , in the season and opportunity of deliverance , isa. . . then didst terrible things which we looked not for : when the case of persons rescued is in appearance hopelesse , yet the lord knowes how to deliver even then . sixthly , it hath reference to the fruits and consequent of the deliverance . there is a deliverance which is but incompleate : persons are delivered from one judgement , but reserved to another . the king of sodom was delivered from the kings that came against him , but reserved to fire and brimstone . sometimes god gives a compleat deliverance that procures a continued peace . jehoshaphat was delivered from the invasion of the moabites , and the fruite of it was , the realme was quiet : for his god gave him rest round about , chron. . . sometimes god gives a deliverance which ends in triumph and glory ; sometimes a deliverance which leads to more temptations . god it may be gives a deliverance to shew what he would doe if wee would cleave to him : but because of our forgetfulnesse of god , our not rendring againe according to his mercy , we may be delivered from one conspiracy so as to fall into another , from one evill so as to be reserved to a greater . the reasons why god doth thus providently and skilfully deliver the godly out of temptation are ; first , because of his promise , god hath ingaged his word for the deliverance of his people , psal. . . i will deliver thee , and thou shalt glorifie mee . secondly , because they pray to him : in the same place he saith , call upon me in the day of trouble , and i will deliver thee . god will not be wanting to the prayer of the poore destitute , he will heare their cry . though it be that proud atheisticall persons make no reckoning of prayer , as if it could doe any thing for deliverance , yet sure prayer is a mighty engine with god , it is of singular force for deliverance . the effectuall servent prayer of the righteous avayleth much , jam. . . thirdly , because of his love ▪ for that makes him imploy his wisedome and power for the deliverance of the godly , deut. . . yea hee loved the people ; all his saints are in thine hand . because they reciprocally love god , and are tempted for his sake . for thy sake we are killed all the day long and counted as sheepe for the slaughter , psal. . . therefore he must needs favour their cause , and be engaged in point of honour to deliver them , psal. . . because he hath set his love upon me , therefore will i deliver him . a good master will not suffer his servant to miscarry for his fidelitie in doing his businesse . surely god that is the best master , who hath farre more goodnesse then all the creatures , will not faile to protect and rescue his servants , his children , that are in danger for his sake . besides it concernes god to shew himselfe just , in righting the innocent , that he may make good his title , the god of judgement . the lord knoweth the way of the righteous , psal. . . and therefore is by his righteousnesse bound to helpe them . fiftly , the rage of the enemies is a sufficient reason for god to deliver his people , and to imploy his providence and power for their rescue ▪ deut. . . saith god , i would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men , were it not that i feared the wrath of the enemy lest their aduersaries should behave themselves strangely . the lord intends to use wicked men as his rod often times to scourge the godly : but he intends they should correct them , not destroy them , he would not have them altogether unpunished yet corrected in measure : hee would not have them lost though chastised . therefore hee gives deliverance at last though the enemy rage much ; the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the let of the righteous : lest the righteous put forth their hand unto iniquity , psal. . . because he knowes the enemy is implacable , unmercifull , knowes not how to put bounds to his rage , but acts in his fury ad extremum virium , to the utmost of his power , therefore god sets bounds to his rage and curbs his fury , psal. . . surely the wrath of man shall praise thee : the remainder of wrath shalt thou restraine . sixtly , the presumption and boasting of the enemy is a great motive to god to deliver his people . thus the psalmist urgeth god to remember the reproach of the enemy , the voyce of the enemy , psal. . . . because they conspire together , they say , come let us destroy them all together , let us out them off from being a nation , that the name of israel may be no more in remembrance , psal. . . they say let us persecute and take him , there is none to deliver him , they magnifie their owne power , they deride the poore godly man , as if there were no helpe for him in god , they promise to themselves satisfaction of their rage , malice , covetousnesse , therefore god will disappoint them . because of senacheribs blasphemy and reproach god delivered hezekiah and hierusalem . because thy rage against me , and thy tumult is come up into mine eares : therefore will i put my hooke into thy nose , and my bridle in thy lips , & i will turne thee backe by the way by which thou camest , saith god , isa. . . not onely by reason of the cries of the oppressed , but also by reason of the bragges of proud tongues that have said , we will prevaile , who is lord over us ? therefore saith god , i will arise , and set him in safety from him that p●…ffeth at him , psal. . v. . applic. for application . first , this may serve to abate the presumption and boasting of unrighteous men in their practises against the godly . it is usuall with ungodly persons when they have hatched a plot , when they have gathered a power , to insnare and crush the godly to promise themselves certainty of prevayling because of their cunning , confederacy , secrecy : because they conceive the godly have no power , or no wit to withstand them . and therefore in the laying of all their plots , in the pursuing of all their designes they make god as a cipher , and vilifie godly persons , as if they were a contemptible poore nothing . and all is because they have no acquaintance with this truth that god knowes how to deliver the godly out of temptation . wherefore they vaunt and boast themselves : all their speech is of their great multitude , great partie , strong power , good commanders , wealthy men , cunning plotters , firme union , these and such like things they glory in . senacherib makes no other account but to take jerusalem by reason of his multitude of chariots and horsemen , sends word to hezekiah by rabshakeh to this purpose . thinkest thou that thou shalt be delivered out of my hands ? i will give thee two thousand horses if thou be able on thy part to set riders upon them . as if he had said , thou hast so few men as not to bee able to furnish two thousand horses with able riders , and how then canst thou stand against me who bring into the field hundreds of thousands ? the same thought is in other ungodly persons , they make no account but to prevaile and carry the day because of their multitude and confederacie . god is secluded from their thoughts , as if he were but a looker on that did nothing . but as we use to say , they that reckon without their host must reckon againe : they that reckon without god make up an easie reckoning , but a foolish one : they please themselves in a vaine presumption which cannot hold . experience might enforme them , that when men presume most , they faile most , and that gods people are then nearest to deliverance when they are in appearance in the most hopelesse condition ; the reasons hereof are evident . god knowes how to deliver when man doth not , and when men say there is no helpe for him in his god , then it is that god doth most certainly appeare with deliverance . out then with all these atheisticall thoughts , as if the godly and their cause were lost , when forces faile , enemies grow potent , and are many in number . let this one experiment of this cities deliverance teach you to see the presumption of men to bee a vaine thing . when almost was there a time wherein a city was nearer spoyling and destruction , and yet preserved ? the narration read to you may easily give you to conceive how neere it was to be taken , how great the presumption of the plotters was of the successe . yet loe in this one instance this truth verified , the lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation : by his skill , and vigilancy we have had deliverance . let not then proud spirits vaunt of their plot and power , but remember what jethro said concerning the deliverance at the red sea , exod. . . now i know that the lord is greater then all gods : for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly hee was above them . secondly , this should strengthen our faith , and encourage us to seeke unto god and rely upon him , even then when in our owne apprehension we be at the weakest , and the enemy most potent . so did jehosaphat , chron. . . o our god wilt thou not judge them ? for wee have no might against this great company that commeth against us : neither know wee w●at to doe : but our eyes are upon thee . and a little after , vers. . bee not afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude : for the battell is not yours but gods . be it that wee be brought to great straights , so that we see no way of escape , no meanes of helpe , yet let our eyes be fixed on the power that is above , still keepe up your heart with prayer in dependance upon god . and let me tell you , that faith is as good as a whole army , yea it is more then great forces , by it the saints have obtained victories , escaped the edge of the sword , heb. . . marke what hanani the seer told asa , chron. . , , . because thou hast relied on the king of syria , and not relied on the lord thy god , therefore is the hoast of the king of syria escaped out of thine hand . were not the ethiopians and lubins a huge hoast with very many chariots and horsemen ? yet because thou didst relie on the lord he delivered them into thine hand ? for the eyes of the lord run to and fro thoorow out the whole earth to shew himselfe strong in the behalfe of them whose heart is perfect toward him . the truth is : faith is our greatest strength ; armies be of no power without god , and when god makes an army to be a scourge to a people , it is likely because they want faith in god for deliverance . oh that then our hearts might be established upon god , whatever straights wee are brought to , that wee could learne to cling , and rest , and hang upon him by faith , though outward helpe faile . he is the lord of hosts , the god of all power and wisedome : let our faith in god be strong , though the arme of flesh wee use bee weake . thirdly , if god be so expert in deliverance , we should learne to waite upon god , and to stay his time for deliverance . god doth not deliver according to thy will , but according to his owne purpose , and therefore we should quiet our selves in his wisedome and care , patiently staying till he be pleased to send deliverance . we are ready to anticipate gods worke , to prescribe the way and time of deliverance , and if they faile to begin to grow weary with waiting , yea to draw desperate conclusions therefrom , and all is because wee have not learned this lesson , that the lord knoweth how to deliver when man doth not ; that his wayes are unsearchable and past finding out by us , that he reserveth the ordering of meanes , the time when , and the extent of deliverance how farre it shall reach . learne then to bee contented though hee disappoint thee in the way of deliverance thou fixest thy thoughts and hopes on , and keepe up thy confidence in god his faithfulnesse and power . remember that of the prophet , isa. . . he that believeth shall not make haste . fourthly , if it be the lord that knowes how to deliver , then when we have deliverance , we must remember to magnifie his wisedom , goodnesse , care , vigilancy and providence . and this is the proper businesse of this day . god hath given a great deliverance to this citie . and i beseech you to consider to whom it can bee ascribed but to him . it were extreame sottshnesse for any man to imagine that such a deliverance came by chance , that it was hap-hazzard , uncertaine blinde fortune that did so discover and prevent a plot so long before contrived , and so neere the accomplishment , nor can it be conceived to have been by the foresight of men . the truth is , all sorts of persons were in a dubious and trembling condition . a plot was feared , but what it might be , or what way to discover it , i suppose the agents in the discovery knew not till god directed some unexpectedly to give intelligence . those that sate at the sterne here will acknowledge they were at a stand , and knew not what to doe : those that seemed best to understand the state of things , here conceived them in a hopelesse condition . if then it cannot be ascribed to fortune , or to men , to whom shall wee ascribe the delivery but to god ? doubtlesse they shew themselves arrant fooles , grosse doaters , sottish persons , stupid wretches , that will not say , digitus dei est hic , herein is the finger of god . that a plot contrived with so much cunning , brought on so neere to an issue , should even then bee discovered , even then be prevented when it was to be acted , with such a mercifull preservation of those against whom it was intended , bindes us to give great praise unto god . let us then with our whole heart acknowledge , that great hath the wisedome , providence and vigilancy of god beene over this place in discovering and preventing this plot . to make us more sensible hereof , let us consider the greatnesse of the delivery by the number of persons delivered , even many thousands of lives in all likelihood , a whole city , and a great city preserved . yea doubtlesse those that conceived themselves safe enough have cause to acknowledge their deliverance . let men dreame of a word or a signe as a securitie for them ; alas ! in a furious concourse , while men are in heate of blood , doe yee thinke they can attend to observe and marke a word , a little white tape in the bosome or in the hat ? alas ! who may not easily conceive that in such a confusion as must needs have been at the rising up and entring of so great forces into a city , in such hurly burly , in such fighting there would have beene little distinction made of inhabitants , yea possibly ( as is usuall in such fights ) their owne forces some of them might have suffered as enemies . it is easie to conceive that not onely goods , but also persons would have perished together . and therefore they that imagined themselves safe enough by reason of the good will they thought the parties plotting and invading did beare to them , yet have reason to acknowledge a great deliverance of them in the disappointing of this plot , not onely the persons particularly designed to destruction , but also many hundreds of those who thought themselves safe enough , would have beene involved in the common slaughter . secondly , let us consider the greatnesse of the deliverance in the fulnesse of it . though many thousands were destinate to destruction , yet not the haire of one mans head lost , not one drop of blood shed , not one person that we know of lost , no not so much as one peny : this was a great deliverance . thirdly , let us consider the greatnesse of the deliverance by the smalnesse of the meanes . a deliverance in a manner without any helpe against a great power : without any foresight against a vigilant enemy : that god might have all the glory , and man onely the knowledge of his owne weakenesse . fourthly , a deliverance in a desperate case , when the enemy was confident , when the preserved were fearefull . fiftly , a deliverance in the very nicke of time , immediately before the plot should have beene acted . sixtly , a deliverance that hath vouchsafed to make for the present , the place safe , the inhabitants in a better posture for the future , which may in probability tend to the peace of the whole kingdome . however it bee that things succeed , yet surely there could not bee a way in likelihood that might have tended to the shortning of this warre , and so consequently to the peace and quietnesse of this kingdome more effectuall then this , that god was pleased to deliver this city : and which is of all the most blessed effect , it hath redounded to gods glory by many thanksgivings to him , which we this day with the acclamations of our soules give unto him : and i doubt not but that it will tend much to the undeceiving of the people from those hard thoughts they have had of the godly as turbulent , and discover the deepe wickednes that is in the hearts of malignant spirits , notwithstanding all their pretences , so that i hope in time it shall be that as in the dayes of joshua , so god will bring it to passe that no dog shall move his tongue against his people , and all will see a necessity of reformation in the discipline of the church , which is the great desire of all the godly in the land . i will expresse my conceits unto you . i have conceived this plot in the intention of it , and many circumstances in it very like that ever to be abhorred massacre at paris in france under charles the ninth of france , and the discovery and disappointment like unto that of the castle and citie of dublin in ireland somewhat more then a yeare since , by which although the warre and misery of that kingdome hath not beene altogether prevented , yet hath beene through the almighties sole power in a great measure lessened . doubtlesse the same spirit of antichrist hath moved in all these plots , and this present warre is set on foot by the same jesuiticall achitophels , by the same catholique league . it is the same plot that began in scotland , but lighted on ireland , and now in a heavy manner of england . it is plaine enough to every one that will consider the agents , the circumstances of it that it is the plot of papists , and jesuited spirits to root out the protestant religion under other pretences . and god doth begin now to discover it , and i doubt not but will more discover it , and cleare the innocency of his people , and adde deliverances to them , but ruine and downefall to that antichristian state . what are wee to doe this day but to acknowledge the greatnesse of this deliverance , to magnifie god our deliverer , and cause the voyce of his praise to bee heard ; to rejoyce in gods worke which he hath done ? though we may not rejoyce in the misery of any man as delighting in it , though we are not to insult over them , but to pity them , who did not pity us , though we are not to reproach them , but to pray for them , that god would soften their hearts and open their eyes , that they may see against whom they strive ; yet for as much as the scripture saith , the righteous shall rejoyce when he seeth the venge mee , he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked , psal. . . that god may bee magnified wee are to rejoyce that they are cast downe , and that god hath vouchsafed unto his people a day of deliverance , and ( blessed be his name ) a day of thanksgiving without any interruption . i beseech you let not this mercy be lost , keepe a yearely memoriall of it , let not this day be lost , spend it not onely in ease from labour and carnall mirth , but remember that deus nobis haec ●ti● fecit , god hath done this great thing for us , and let our rejoycing be in god , our prayses of him , oh prayse our god all yee people , and let the voyce of his praise he heard , which endues our soule with life , and suffereth not our feet to slip . and in your praises observe these directions . first , remember the great deliverance of all deliverances , even the deliverance which the lord jesus the great captaine of our salvation hath gotten for us by his death over hell and death . every deliverance we have from the inferiour instruments of satan the great adversary should lead to the remembrance of the grand deliverance from hell eternally to be remembred . secondly , let this deliverance confirme your faith , & erect your hope in expectation of those great diliverances which all gods people long for , even the great deliverance from antichrist when god will judge the whore , and avenge the sea of blood that hath beene drunke these many hundreds of yeares by that cruell dominion of the papacy , which all that love jesus christ doe earnestly pray for and endeavour : the deliverance from gog and magog when their great multitudes shall bee overthrowne : the deliverance from the grave , when the earth and the sea shall give up their dead . learne we to argue as the apostle doth , cor. . . who delivered us from so great death , and doth deliver ; in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us . god hath delivered this citie and therefore will deliver his church which is his owne city . it is the argumentation of the apostle here . god delivered noah from the old world at the deluge , he delivered lot out of sodom , and therefore , god knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation . one deliverance is enough to conclude a succession of deliverances . all gods deliverances are grounded upon the same reason , and therefore the assurance of one is a confirmation of our faith concerning all . thirdly , learne to delight thy selfe in god , learne to glory and make thy boast in him . say as nebuchadnezzar himselfe acknowledged , dan. . . there is no other god that can deliver after this sort . we that hope in the living god , that trust in christ jesus should raise our spirits to an high and holy magnanimity and courage in our god , despise the idols that superstitious persons magnify . hath god delivered us ? hath the sonne of god saved us ? away then with crosses , crucifixes , dead saints , images , reliques , breaden gods ; they are but dead things , they cannot deliver , they are but vanitie and lies , there is no breath , there is no trust in them . let us exalt our god and say , our god is the living god & an everlasting king , the portion of jacob is not like them , israel is the rod of his inheritance , jerem. . our god is a god that can deliver , and doth deliver , and will deliver . let the experiment of gods deliverance raise our hearts to an high apprehension of the power , and excellency and worthinesse of our god . lastly , let us cleave stedfastly to our god . hath god stood to us ? let us stand fast to him : stand to his truth by professing , to his commands by obeying them , stand unto his people by appearing for them , stand to his cause by engaging our selves in it , stand to gods name by trusting on it . doth god deliver the godly ? oh prize godlinesse then as great gaine , as profitable for all things . doth god heare prayers ? oh then let us use prayers to god . let us contradict sinners , and say , it is not in vaine to serve god , that there is profit in keeping his ordinances , and that we walke mournfully before the lord of hoasts , mal. . . let us returne and discerne between the righteous and the wicked , betweene him that serveth god and him that serveth him not , v. . to manifest which i should proceed to handle the other conclusion in the text , the lord knoweth how to reserve the unjust to the day of judgement to be punished ; but time will not permit . finis . saints no smiters, or, smiting civil powers not the work of saints being a treatise, shewing the doctrine and atempts of quinto-monarchians, or, fifth-monarchy-men about smiting powers, to be damnable and antichristian / by john tombes ... tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) saints no smiters, or, smiting civil powers not the work of saints being a treatise, shewing the doctrine and atempts of quinto-monarchians, or, fifth-monarchy-men about smiting powers, to be damnable and antichristian / by john tombes ... tombes, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed by r.d. for henry eversden ..., london : . reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. errata: p. 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texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng fifth monarchy men. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion ex aed. lamb. feb. . . imprimatur geo. stradling s. t. p. rever . in christo pat. d. gilb. archiep. cant. à sac. domest . saints no smiters : or , smiting civil powers not the work of saints . being a treatise , shewing the doctrine and atempts of quinto-monarchians , or , fifth-monarchy-men about smiting powers , to be damnable and antichristian . by john tombes , b. d. matth. . . then said jesus unto him ; put up again thy sword into his place : for all they that take the sword , shall perish with the sword. london , printed by r. d. for henry eversden at the greyhound in st. paul's church-yard . . to the right honourable , edward earl of clarendon , lord chancellor of england . by divine providence declared in my writings upon his majesties return into this kingdom , i was engaged in the asserting the oath of his majesty's supremacy , which drew upon me a necessity of arguing the point of taking any oath at all , in somewhat an ample treatise about swearing , which being presented to him it pleased his majesty to accept of . since which time i have employed much of my study in a treatise of the kingdom of god , and the seeking it : but having made some entrance into it , and finding it likely to become too large for the end intended , to wit , the undeceiving of those , who under pretence of setting up the kingdom of god , think it their duty to demolish all present powers as antichristian , they being persons averse from reading any thing that is prolix , i have chosen rather to cut this part out of the whole piece , than to stay the finishing of the rest . such as it is i presume to present it to your honour , ( in humble gratitude for that voluntary unthought of favour towards me , which moved you of your own accord and goodness to insinuate to his majesty your ancient knowledge , and later apprehensions of me , by which means i have enjoyed that peace , which is through his majesties goodness yet vouchsafed me ) which i humbly crave your honour to accept of from your honours devoted , and deeply obliged servant in our lord , john tombes . the contents . § . the occasion of this treatise is declared . § . the words of quinto-monarchians expressing their opinions about seeking christs kingdom in this age are recited . § . their doctrine about smiting civil powers is proved from scripture precepts to be wicked . § . the exceptions of fifth-monarchy-men and others against the first argument are refelled . § . suppositions implied in the quinto-monarchians exceptions about the stone and its smiting , dan. . , , , . are shewed to be mistakes , or uncertainties . § . quinto-monarchians hypotheses about the civil governments being from the th monarchy , rome and the dragon are shewed to be groundless . § . more arguments are urged against quinto-monarchians doctrine from precepts and examples of holy persons . § . more arguments are urged from censures and determinations in the new testament . § . quinto-monarchians doctrine of smiting civil powers inciteth to resisting of evil and self-revenging , forbidden by christ and his apostles . § . quinto-monarchians doctrine tends to murder and ruine of humane society . § . the th and th arguments from the meekness , peaceableness and patience of saints are urged , against the smiting work of quinto-monarchians . § . the th and th arguments from the contrariety of the martyrs example and agreement with papists doctrine and practice , are urged against the quinto-monarchians . § . the smiting work of quinto-monarchians is grounded on falsities or uncertainties concerning the agents , means , and time of the smiting , dan. . , , , . § . many things are groundless and false , which the quinto-monarchians suppose and take for articles of their faith , concerning the fifth monarchy and its setting up . § . the claim which the quinto-monarchians make to civil government on earth in the saints afore christ's coming is false . § . the reasons and arguments of fifth-monarchy men for their separation and engaging against civil powers , are shewed to be vain . saints no smiters : smiting civil powers not the work of saints . or , a treatise shewing the doctrine and attempts of quinto-monarchians to be damnable and antichristian . § . the occasion of this writing is declared . it was our saviors injunction to his disciples , matth. . . that they should first seek the kingdom of god ; & it was his care to direct how they were to seek it ; to wit , by prayer for its coming , preaching the gospel of the kingdom , suffering patiently for it , and living holily according to his precepts and example : and accordingly the holy apostles , martyrs , confessors and believers in christ have in the several ages since christs appearing in the flesh promoted the kingdom of god by these means . nevertheless ( to omit other instances , whether of former or later times ) there hath been a company of men in this nation , noted by the name of fifth-monarchy-men , or quinto-monarchians , who have in sermons and in printed writings asserted another way , which is like the barbarous proceedings of turks , or bloudy papists , of setting up the supposed visible kingdom of god by bodily weapons , fighting against all the present civil powers on earth as antichristian , and in most cruel manner killing all that oppose them , and determining this to have been the generation work they were to prosecute in this age. by what degrees and means they came to such monstrous opinions they can best tell , who have been acquainted with them . the cursed effects of such opinions as have been hatched and vented by the men of that perswasion , after sundry other attempts before that time frustrated , brake out in the beginning of january . in the city of london , a small number of men dementate by those conceits in a most horrid furious manner , making a most bloudy insurrrection , in a most violent audacious way not to be parallel'd . those principles by which they acted and their practises , were , to my knowledge , opposed some years before in some of the congregations to which some of the assertors had joined themselves , and they thence solemnly ejected , and their doctrine in the confessions of faith of those congregations , and some other apologetical and polemical writings rejected and impugned . and after that insurrection presently those persons who were obnoxious to suspition and obloquy as abettting or fomenting that attempt , by reason of their dissent from the received way of ecclesiastical rites and government , did by humble apologies and otherwise acquit themselves from that crimination . nevertheless , having met with some of the writings of the men , whose principles animated that rising ; and fearing , that there may yet some sparks of that fire lie unquenched , after the publishing of some writings against the papists , to shew the insufficiency of their proofs for the truth , visibility , holiness , infallibility of their church , supremacy of their pope , the certainty of their unwritten traditions ▪ necessity of receiving the trent faith , and joining to the roman church as it is now governed ; and some other against quakers about the light within each man , as an insufficient rule to guide us to god ; about the oaths of the king's supremacy and allegiance to him ; and upon that occasion somewhat an ample treatise about swearing ; asserting , that under the gospel there is yet a lawfull use of swearing ; being now debarred of other ministerial imployment , i have conceived it a necessary work to shew the weakness of those suppositions , upon which the quinto-monarchians have been drawn to such an hideous practice , as that accursed action forementioned was . § . the words of quinto-monarchians expressing their opinions about seeking christ's kingdom in this age are recited . there was a book printed , made in the year . as is noted pag. . bearing this title , the banner of truth displayed ; or a testimony for christ , and against antichrist , being the substance of several consultations , holden and kept by a certain number of christians , who are waiting for the visible appearance of christs kingdom in and over the world , and residing in and about the city of london . in the first page of the epistle dedicatory are these words : and truly it evidently appeareth , that rome and the nations of europe ( commonly called the protestant , but are the antichristian countries ) which are the streets of the great city , and rome-babylon , are the akeldama , or field of bloud . and some pages after mentioning powers since the rise of the beast with ten horns and ten crowns , and their success , it is said : now for that we apprehend , that the present generation in which we live , is that time in which this great work of reformation ( rending and tearing the very foundations of the beasts civil power up by the roots ; the fall of the tenth part of rome's dominions ; a great slaughter amongst the great men and implacable enemies of christ ; and the final result , the kingdoms of the world becoming christ's possession ) will begin ; and that time in which the first dispensation of our lord's kingdom shall take place ; and that it shall not pass before these things be fulfilled : therefore we are against these governments as now constituted , and growing upon the old root of wickednesse and bitternesse , that ( time out of mind ) have brought forth and produced nothing but bloud-monsters ; and to rule by those laws that bastards tyrants and conquerors have made for their lusts sake , in opposition to the law and the testimony , isay . . we cannot contend for any government whatsoever that is of mans erecting , building and planting , where any thing of this old foundation may remain and be left ; and which good men , moral men , civil men may exercise upon a meerly civil accompt , ( for all men as they are men have lost their rights and priviledges in respect of government in the first adam ; but saints have regained them in the second adam , or lord from heaven ) and by force and vertue of mens laws ( though but the best of those laws , & those called fundamental , so they are where no more righteous is found ) for the lord will pluck up and destroy root and branch ; and the lord will not have a stone of babels confused building for a corner , nor a stone for a foundation . we cannot therefore but ( as in duty by our allegiance to this king bound ) proclaim , that jesus christ is the only lawful and true begotten heir , and lawful king and potentate of these three nations , and of all the nations of the earth , and ( as he is the seed of abraham ) shall possesse the earth ; yea , and the very gates of his enemies ; and that the sole legislative power of the nations is , and doth of right appertain and belong to him , and shall be exercised by him , dan. . . jer. . . isa. . , . gal. . . &c. hence then it necessarily follows , that those beast-like powers now in being in the world , and those ( if any ) which shall succeed upon that bottom that rebel-like will not assign their said power , crowns and scepters to this great monarch , are , and shall be deemed and adjudged traytors , and proceeded against accordingly , by vertue of this kings laws . and truly we are soberly and humbly bold in the lord jehovah's strength to assert , that the saints of the most high ( be they who or where they will ) and faithfull remnant , are a people distinct from the world , and formal professors , and are but pilgrims and strangers in this state of affairs , men of another kingdom and world ; and are by themselves a common-wealth , and free-state : and therefore 't is to be desired , from good and sound grounds , that they would exercise that royal authority which god has given unto them , and invested them with , as they are saints by calling . and upon this accompt we humbly conceive , that 't is lawful for them to use all honest and just means to defend themselves and offend their enemies ; and to contend against those that do or shall oppose them in their work and business , which is according to the pattern shewed unto them in the mount , and law of christ , ordained and declared throughout the scriptures . it is observable , that we are even already arrived the overturning daies ; we mean those times in which god will begin to smite the governments and powers of the great image : which is a little after expressed thus ; the total annihilation and subversion of all the powers of this world , of what quality soever , ruling either in antichrists earth , or civil state , or in his heaven , or christ-state , by the first dispensation of christs visible kingdom , which we have spoken of , or that of the stone . hence it is , that we bear a constant and publick testimony against powers , as the subject of gods displeasure , and that which must be plucked up . we expect the gentile saints shall begin this great work . in the book it self , having p. . said they were resolved to proceed in their way of consultation for the clearing up these matters of their faith , and principles of their hope , they thus write , that there is oppression in the earth in all nations , as also in england at this present time , is undeniable : for , no man can say , that there is no oppression , unless we will also affirm , that there is no dragon in power , no antichrist , beast , babylon , whore , nor false prophet ; which how absurd a thing it is let all judge . but the man of sin is still in the seat of authority , & the governments of these nations are antichristian , therefore oppression is not ceased : neither will there be any lasting cessation of cruelty , untill the fifth kingdom be set up ; when the whole earth shall be at rest , and the fourth kingdom , which divides it self into two iron legs ; ten toes and a little horn , be wholy destroyed in all the laws , constitutions , governments and reliques thereof ; for the spirit and life that is in that beast , or kingdom , is the spirit of the old dragon , who is the devil and satan , that old serpent , whose seed do continually war against the woman , which is christs mystical body ; there being great enmity between them two ▪ p. . that dispensation which jehovah , by his providence hath cast us under , is , the overturning dispensation , the time of war , and beating of plough-shares into swords , which christ , and the scriptures speak of ; that day in which christ will appear in his stone , the stone of israel , against the powers of the world , to the end he may be invested in his possessions , which is the kingdom and dominions , and their greatness under the whole heavens ; and therefore we conclude that it is an unlawful thing , and therefore men ought not to contribute to the upholding , and maintaining of those powers which shall be broken by this dispensation , left happily they be found fighters against god. p. . the will of man having been corrupted ever since the fall of man , the lawes that proceed from that will must need be so . p. . we say the oppressor which makes us to groan is babylon , in her several parts and powers in england : rulers , lawyers , priests and soldiers ; for the present government in england must of necessity be confessed to be either a part of the ten horns of the ravenous fourth beast , or else that wicked little horn dan. . because they are the last evil powers that shall be over the nations of europe , and therefore we may safely conclude this to be an assyrian , else we must conclude him to be a part of that kingdom , set up by the god of heaven ; but that cannot be , because he rules by the lawes of his predecessors , and shall christ be beholding to antichrist for lawes ? no certainly ; he is of the fourth , and therefore we need not run far to look this oppressor , having already found him to be the present government , with its dependents , and appurtenances , being a piece of that monstrous beast , whom the dragon ( i. e. the devil revel . . . ) assignes power and seat , and great authority unto , who branches himself into so many monarchical governments in the nations of europe , and which men would perswade us to submit to as being lawful , and of god , but they execute the laws of antichrist , and rule for him in tyranny ; oppression and persecution by politick laws which they make , and for which the priests and lawyers plead , and mercinary soldiers and officers execute . p. . the persons oppressed , we take it , are the most spiritual enlightned saints in these nations , whose spirits and affections are stirred up to follow christ in the work of the generation , the good interest now contended for , whom we call the generation of publick spirited saints . the administration of christs visible kingdom and rule over the nations is endeavoured to be suppressed in this juncture of time . and not only the thing it self is opposed as dangerous , and endeavoured by matchiavil's principle , argument and power , as heretical , as monstrous ; but the doctrine and gospel of that kingdom and office of christ , ( which shall be preached for a witness to all nations ) is slighted and rejected by self-interested men , and contemned by most . p. . they have made a law that those that shall speak against the powers must be traytors , which in effect is to make those traytors that speak for this kingdom . the conversion of the gentiles and poor ignorant sinners to the faith of christs visible kingdom is opposed . and p. the establishment of justice and righteousness in the world : and therfore with us arise for the lot of our inheritance ; prepare therefore your victuals , your purse , and your scrip , but especially your sword , though you sell your coat for it . p. . the parliament as being built upon the old foundation was a part of the beast . p. . it is clear that the dispensation of the stone shall begin to smite the power of the beast , or civil power , and that quarrel is begun and taken up and continued chiefly against that power . p. . found to be from hell and not from heaven . p. . the glass of the beasts powers being almost run out in these nations , what remains but that the saints take into their own possession the kingdom and power ( which is their birth-right , as freemen of the common-wealth of israel , and heirs of the whole world with christ , gal. . . ) which the beast and his powers hath unjustly detained from them some hundreds of years . p. . that the work of this stone is a smiting work , or a work wherein the saints imployed shall visibly appear in a military posture for christ , which we call the great combat between christ and the kings and rulers of the world . for the saints shall fall upon , or smite that great image , the feet and toes thereof , and the whole roman monarchy , as now divided , or all those powers , whose derivation is from rome ( others not excepted nor freed ) shall be thereby smitten , we mean the kingdoms of the romish iron-legs , or the roman kingdom divided into the eastern , and western monarchies , ( wherein the whole dominion , power and monarchy of the ottoman family , or that of the turks , is comprehended ) and the beasts ten horns , or antichrists civil powers ( equivalent to the ten toes ) and also the little horn , together with all powers whatsoever that shall be found opposers of the lords kingdom , whether they be of the golden babylonish , silver persian , brasen grecian , or iron roman dan. . and ch . . revel . . ch . . so that we comprehend the whole kingdom of antichrist in the civil ecclesiastical parts thereof made up of persons and things . p. . the fifth kingdom , which is christs , with its holy , just and righteous lawes and officers must arise with destruction to , and stand up in place of the th . kingdom , and the lawes and officers thereof . p. . because it is the purchase of the blood , and death of our lord jesus christ. p. . now then we say , that called the ordinance of god , proves the ordinance of the devil , and though the powers of the great image might be taken for the ordinance of god , so long as they kept their pure , civil and unmixed state ; so saith paul , the powers that be ( i. e. the civil powers of old rome , tho a bloody persecutor , and devourer of the creation and good heritage ) are ordained of god ; yet when the power of rome adulterated from its pure civil state , and becomes a mixt antichristian state , the beast and a whore then it is said of that beastly , antichristian power , that the dragon , or satan gave him his power , and seat , and great authority ; and what then is this save the ordinance of hell ? god hath revealed this by his spirit from his word , unto a little remnant , who see the rottenness and hellish foundation of all the civil powers of the beast . and how great an argument is this also to us that the rise and work of the stone is near ? which is principally against the civil power . p. . it is certain , that it is a duty in saints to hate gods enemies ; yea , and more particularly to hate the civil , or beast-like power , because it is that which upholds the great whore , and is a fighter against christs kingly office , even with a perfect hatred , as we see and find a remnant do at this day . p. . the lord will use , and engage his people to act in , and perform such a destroying work upon the world , as this work of the stone is , namely the total commotion and dissolution of the old heavens , and old earth , and all the created powers ruling therein ; because it is the decree , determination , promise and appointment of the father . p. . the lord by these figurative expressions , holds forth the dissolution of all old things formal antichristian church-state , ordinances , worship , discipline , and doctrine , all beast-like , wordly governments , institutions , laws , politick constitutions , powers , &c. in a word , the heavens , and the earth of all the nations isai. . . p. . so that jesus christ will admit of no competitors , but will have the sole legislative power , and exercise of the chief magistracy , and be lord paramount over the whole earth ; and therefore god is engaged to appear with his smiting stone , to make way for this glorious mountain of peace . p. . that all the blood of gods people is found in babylon : for they ( i. e. her civil powers revel . . , . ) have shed the blood of the saints and prophets revel . . . ch . . . & . . jer. . . now therefore god by way of recompence & retaliation hath ordained , that the saints shall be his instruments by which he will execute his vengeance upon the powers of the world , who are all of them murtherers : accordingly god commands his people ( & 't is their duty to obey ) to reward babylon double as she rewarded them revel . . . and they shall give her blood to drink . p. . the call which the stone shall have to act in its smiting work , is for the greatest part thereof now pertinent and fitly applicable to a faithful remnant now extant in england , and fulfilled in and upon them , and also seeing that the signes laid down in the word of god , for the time of the end , are in a gr●at measure now fulfilled , and accomplished in englands remnant ; therefore we conclude , and assert , that 't is lawful and warrantable , and is a duty incumbent for captivated sion ; and oppressed saints , to stand up in gods name and fear , and deliver themselves , and that glorious gospel of the kingdom ; now by them declared to the world from persecution , oppression , and that long captivity and bondage , which she hath remained in ; and to break the yoak of the oppressor , which is now upon her neck , according to the word & commandment of the lord. zach. . . isai. . . we are perswaded that the work of the stone is the present work of this generation , and our present work , and do accordingly exhort the saints , to arise to fall upon the enemy . p. . the saints in order to this smiting work shall be converted from all the civil power and rule of antichrist ; and the ten horned beast , upon which the mystery harlot sitteth . p. . that it is their duty to withdraw their hands , hearts , affections , purses , and prayers from the civil power , or power of the beast ; that they shall quit all their interest , and claim , in , and to the old heavens , and earth , and state of things ; shall forsake father mother , &c. and shall convert houses , lands , possessions and enjoyments ( commanded to be prudently beat into swords and spears ) into one common stock , to be consecrated for the management of this great affair . p. . and in such a practise they shall be no loosers , christ will give them an hundred fold ; even the spoile of all their great and rich enemies , who are his opposers , and in the end an eternal crown . the saints are , with moses , to refuse court honour , and favor , and preferment , egyptians wisdom , learning , revenues and great riches : with david , to leave their common duties ( as matters of small value , and little concernment , in comparison of this noble , and worthy imployment ) to fight against the philistines ( so are the civil powers ) or common enemy to the common-wealth of israel . p. we do profess we cannot be content , or satisfied until christs kingdom flourish , but will ( in gods name and strength ) press forward till we come to the mark , which is the state of the true rest ( so we call that kingdom and power ) where the saints shall cease from all their labours , in and with christ. p. . doth not the lord call the saints to arise also unto the prey ? p. . the work of god against nations , provinces , universities , corporations , cities , townes , kings , rulers , chief captains , mighty men , in church and common-wealth , enemies of christ's kingly office , shall be the lesson of faithful saints ; the true way will be discovered and made plain , all rebels , and traitors , open and prophane , more close pretenders , and formally godly , discovered , hatred , in and among his saints against those several parts , forms , powers of babylon ; doleful howling , and mourning among the merchants of babylon , who are the great and rich men whose hearts dwell on the earth . p. . the saints must separate not only from the romish universal , national , provincial , and diocesan church-state of babylon , and antichrist ; together with their discipline , doctrine , worship and ceremonies : but also and more particularly ( which is most properly a work precedent to be done by the saints in order to the smiting work of the stone ) from the national , and parochial parish church state and assemblies , forms and classes , of this and other antichristian nations ; which we call the politick ( and no more than civil ) stratagem , and cunning invention of antichrist : to divide unto himself the whole land for gain , whereby all men to the lowest ranck , are compelled forcibly to contribute to the maintenance of his false prophet , and so wickedness is established by a law : again further from those churches that are select , & more pure as being seemingly refined , which are the gathered in a pastoral way ( reducing things to primitive practise ) so far as they are corrupted and adulterated and found opposers of the kingly office of jesus christ , in and over the whole world ; and more especial in the administration of this part , or dispensation of that kingdom , to wit , that of the stone , or war against his enemies ( for even in this generation there be a sort of people , and those we hope godly , that do acknowledge and wait in the expectation of the later , yea , and hold forth the personal appearance of our lord as king , yet nevertheless oppose and deny , and quite leap over this stone and its work , thereby endeavouring to render the saints useless and uncapable of destroying babylon ) which must make ●way and without which we cannot attain to the peaceable and more glorious administration of this kingdom , by removing those mountains , hils , and powers of darkness , which do oppose and hinder it p. . and from those humane , heathenish and antichristian wayes , means and helps , for the attainment , whereof men study , & which they practise in the schools , and universities of these nations , as things necessary for the fitting , preparing and qualifying a man ( how carnal soever ) to be a preacher of the gospel ( as they say ) and this , together with the offer of some large stipend or yearly salary , and fat benefice is their call to preach : therefore we disown and abominate their qualifications , and their call as an accursed thing : yet mistake us not , we are not against humane learning , and the knowledge of the languages , but do repute it honourable , good , and commendable ; yet when it is abused , and the plea of necessity put upon it , in that habit we utterly declaim against it , as a derogation to the holy spirit , and its office ; who gave out the scripture , and imprints them in the hearts of the godly ; for all scripture is given by the inspiration of god , and cannot be convincingly and profitably expounded by mans art and learning . p. . separation is to be from the parochial church , and hireling ministry of england , their ordination and institution : after they have for some time been trained up in the arts and sciences of egypt , in the universities , they take their several degrees and commencements , masters of art , batchelors of divinity , or godliness , and in case they sit long under the skirts of the great whore , she makes them doctors in divinity , men skilful , and perfect in heavenly mysteries : these are those that during the defection and apostacy , are the rabbies which look more after the fleece , than the sheep ; lording it over gods heritage : we therefore are against those degrees , offices , places , and their vain ( which are indeed blasphemous ) titles , which they arrogate from god , and jesus christ , the great prophet and teacher of his people . gal. . . matth. . . joh. , . rev. . . p . the enlightened saints , or the more pure and holy part of those called the gathered ( and which are corrupted ) churches in these nations , or elsewhere ought to separate and withdraw from the more grosse , dark defiled , and corrupted part of the said churches , because there are no churches ( or at leastwise very few ) of the pastoral way in these nations , or elsewhere , but have something of antichrist in them ; having forsaken & apostatized from the primative and first love ; and have , and do in many principles & practise strike hands with the interest of antichrist , and mystery of iniquity . thes. , , . p. . our position we give thus , that in this ending time of the mystical numbers , wherein the stone shall arise , the saints must disown , and in the strength of god separate from , and ( according to that power which god shall give unto them by his spirit ) engage against all , and all manner of civil power of what quality soever ; now lift up over the whole earth , or any part , kingdom , nation , or corner thereof ; together with all its dependents , upholders , lawes and appurtenances whatsoever , whose derivation has been from satan , ruling in all the several parts , powers and forms of the devouring fourth beast : and which are of and belonging to that beast , though descended into the very lowest , last and most refined and pretended christian-like power of that beast : as having their root , and foundation upon satan the great dragon . p. , . we accompt it a duty for the saints to separate from all the forms , practises , doctrines , and spirit of the antichrist in the world , in their bretheren in the churches , &c. and to be plain , we accompt him , and that spirit , which either in act , or deed , wilfully , and obstinately denies the smiting work of our lords kingdom antichristian ; inasmuch as that such would alwaies have christ , his saints , his cause in and on the earth a sufferer : but the scripture clearly manifests the contrary . agreeably to these positions , or rather exceeding them , are the speeches of some whether levellers , or quinto-monarchians , in the first and second part of pamphlets printed . , . p. . the creature man was priviledged with being lord over other inferior creatures , but not over his own kind ; for all men being alike priviledged by birth , so all men were to enjoy the creatures alike without propriety , one more than another . p. . the beast hath its power from the dragon . revel . . . and the dragon . revel . . . is the devil : so that it is plain , that kings are of the beast , and the beast is of the devil ; and it is as plain , they that worship the king , worship the beast ; and they that worship the beast , worship the devil . revel . . . now let us a little behold our english powers , all that which is called magistracy , is from the kings patent ; and his is from the devil : for the kings predecessors , the outlandish bastard william , came to be king by conquest and murther , now murtherers are , saith jesus , the devils children ; for , saith he , the devil was a murtherer from the beginning , and he abode not in the truth : now kings are utterly against the truth , and persecutors of the saints ; for saith jesus , they shall bring you before kings , so that kings are enemies unto the kingdom of christ ; taking licenses and grants , patents and charters from the king , is taking the beasts mark . p. . we take this power of william the conqueror , to be that little horn in dan. . . p. . kings , lords , and commons the little horn. part. . p. . titles of honour are termed vain titles , forbidden by our saviour as heathenish , although some good men were kings , yet it was not in regard to their office , but persons , for in that they were kings , they were tyrants . p. . it was wickedness in the israelites , in advancing a man , one of their own kind , in the place of a god , and so to idolize their own flesh above god. p. . kings are the worst of men . p. . lawyers being worse than the devil , who scorns to take a penny fees , to torment any , but will do it freely . p. . pharaoh-like , they have their juglers , who can play the hocus pocus , and invent a thing they call religion , like jereboams calves , who the first invented state worship . p. . all those oppressors before named , do live altogether out of gods way , and in rebellion to his lawes : first , because they live without a calling , and so are idle , being vagabonds , and wasters of the creatures by drunkenness , pride , gluttony , and so but vermin in a commonwealth , and by their own law ought to be put into a house of correction , and to be made work . jesus christ alone is lord and king , over man , and all men are equals . p. . all men are to enjoy alike freedoms , and none more than another ; so that they are equal , and none have to do to command another , no more than another him ; but in a joynt union and agreement : that any be set up , it is but a trusted humane power ; and they but servants to the whole , and may be removed at pleasure . p. . there are vice-kings , viz. those that are deputies , as mayors in cities and towns corporate , that are kings of patents , which patents are meer monopolies , and serve to inhance trading and commodities , in a few mens hands , to beggar the whole ; these take towls and customs of their brethren . p. . why may not the soldiers pull the judges out of westminster hall , and take all their rusty records , laws ▪ &c. and make a fire on them ? that so we may have honest , godly laws , according to the scriptures and reason . in the preface to the last sermons of mr. tillinghast , who was much for the fifth-monarchy , are these words ; let none take offence at this language , for i cannot forbear vilifying the kingdoms of the fourth beast , when my thoughts are upon the magnifying of the kingdom , power and glory of jesus christ our lord. and if the virgin daughter of sion ( without any disparagement to her holy modesty ) might of old , be allowed by god himself , to dispise the great king of assyria , and to laugh him to scorn ; i know no reason to the contrary , but one of the lambs followers , may without breach of rule , in an holy triumph of faith , express contempt of the kings of the earth , who are all of them the lovers of the mother of harlots and abomination of the earth . in the first sermon . p. . of the third edition . mr. tillinghast saith ; davids kingdom was a type of christs kingdom , and indeed , whereas this kingdom here jerem. . , . promised is shadowed forth by that of david , it doth hold thus much , that the kingdom is not only a spiritual kingdom , but an outward visible kingdom ; for such a throne and kingdom davids was ▪ p. . yet the woman hath not had her day upon the serpent , but there is a time wherein the woman must have a day upon the serpent to break his head : therefore there is such a kingdom wherein the saints of jesus christ shall crush all the enemies of jesus christ in the world . p. . the devil plays his game ; thus in the new testament times , he made men to look for an outward kingdom only , when christ was about to set up a spiritual kingdom ; & now that christ would set up an outward kingdom saith the devil , look only to the spiritual kingdom . p. . gods peoples faith is not grounded on fancies , but they see and know that god is doing some glorious thing in the world , he is overturning kingdoms , and setting up the kingdom of his son. serm. . p. . he conceives the work of christs visible kingdom over the world the work of the present time , one great article of our faith , the work that god doth call his children to at this day ( and he calls upon them from heaven to attend to ) & that they are to expect it before christ come forth , & bring his kingdom with him . p. , . he distinguisheth in christs visible kingdom , between the kingdom of the stone , and of the mountain ; this he calls the kingdom of glory , wherein the saints shall not work but receive , that the working kingdom of the saints wherein saints are by the lord imployed to do some notable service against his coming ; which is , the breaking down the great image , the bringing down all his enemies , that when he comes , he may find them his footstool ; for he is to fit at the fathers right hand , until all his enemies be made his footstool ; it 's a kingdom wherein plow-shaers are to be beaten into swords , there shall be wonderful use of swords , weapons of war , out of daniel . , . he gathers the beginning of each of these . p. . truly i look upon it as being a main and principal part of that faith once delivered to the saints , as touching the fifth kingdom . p. . though this stone fundamentally is christ himself , yet considered as smiting the great image , it can be no other but christ mystical , christ in his members ; and the cutting out of this stone , cannot be meant , as some would have it , of christs first coming . p. . now if it can be made appear , that that , with which the fifth kingdom doth begin , the work of the great image , the over-turning the thrones of the kings , is to be performed by the saints , as chief instruments in the management of it ; then it follows of necessity , there must be such a thing as the civil and military power , to be in the hands of the saints , and that before the day of christs appearance , they must have this power in their hands , for the performance of that work : and if so , then it 's not evil for the saints and people of god to seek for it , to pray for it , to plead for it , for it 's to come into their hands for the doing of their work before the day of christs appearance . and then endeavours to prove , that this work , with which the fifth kingdom doth begin , is a work to be performed by saints , as the chief and principal instruments in the doing of it . p. . there 's the coming forth of christ , when his enemies by his saints are made his footstool . p. . he gives some figues that this work is near at hand , and p. . he makes this to be a general sign ; that never was there a principle , that did run so much among the churches of christ , as this hath done within these twelve months . i have set down the words of those persons , that i shall oppose in their positions , that i may not be thought to impose upon them . out of them it is manifest , that they assert , that all the powers , not only ecclesiastical , but also civil and military of the nations , even the protestant , as well as the turkish , and romish kingdoms , are antichristian ; and all their laws , officers , schools , corporations , titles , priviledges , degrees , and ranks of men in their politick and military , as well as ecclesiastical state , babylonish , from the fourth monarchy , & that those that they call publick spirited saints of this age , distinct from notional professors , and formally godly ; are to hate , separate from them , deny any assistance to them , rise up against them to destroy them utterly , to smite them , in order to the setting up a fifth monarchy of christ's visible kingdom on earth , that the saints may be a free common-wealth of themselves , subject to no laws but christ's , and free from all oppressions of men . § . the doctrine of smiting powers is proved from scripture precepts to be wicked . this doctrine is damnable and antichristian , as is proved by these arguments following ; whereof the first is taken from those precepts of the new testament and the old , which forbid such disobedience , vilifying , refusing assistance , smiting of powers over us , dignities , officers ; but command honour , obedience , assistance , fear , to powers , dignities , and their laws , and may be thus formed . that doctrine is damnable and antichristian which commendeth and urgeth practises and actions contrary to the precepts of christ , his holy apostles , and other holy men in the holy scriptures . this proposition is of it self manifest , unlesse that be not acknowledged damnable which is condemned by so holy persons ; nor antichristian in a large sense which is flatly opposite to christ's and his holy apostles expresse doctrine . but the doctrine , which commendeth and urgeth such disobedience , vilifying , refusing assistance , smiting of powers , as the words of the fore-cited authors , called usually fifth-monarchy-men do , is contrary to the precepts of christ , his holy apostles , and other holy men in the holy scriptures : therefore that doctrine is damnable and antichristian . the minor is proved from those precepts which expresly command subjection , fear , honour , assistence to them . whereof the first is that of our saviour matth. . . mark . . luke . . where our lord christ being by the disciples of the pharisees and herodians , posed with this captious question , tending to intangle him in his talk ; is it lawful to give tribute to caesar , or not ? after the shewing of tribute money , and the acknowledgment that it had caesars image and inscription , our lord christ thence inferring , that it was due to him whose image and inscription it bare ; resolves them , that they were to render to caesar , the things that were caesars ; to wit , tribute , honour , and that subjection which was then given to him as emperor . now it is known , that the emperor , or caesar , then reigning was tiberius caesar , luke . . who came to the empire by wicked practises , and not only led a most vitious and wicked life in uncleanness , and irreligion , but also was a bloody oppressor of the senate and people of rome , as may be seen in tacitus his annals , suetonius in the relation of his life and other historians . therefore the doctrine , that teacheth disobedience , denying of tribute , honours , subjection to kings and princes , as being oppressors , enemies to christ , that urgeth hatred , smiting of them is contrary to christs precept , which requires tribute , honours , and subjection to be given them , though by wicked waies obtaining empire , and most wickedly ruling , and putting christ himself to death . the next text is that full and plain precept of the apostle paul , rom. . , , , , , , . where st. paul requires of every soul , therefore of the most inlightned saints , to be subject to the higher , or supreme powers ; who are termed v. . rulers , or princes , such as bear the sword. v. . therefore civil magistrates , who had power of punishing even with death , who were revengers unto wrath upon him that doth evil , and might praise them that did well ; therefore they were the persons who had rule , who are meant by powers ; for such actions are only of persons : it is not said the powers that should be , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the powers that are in being , though by evil means attaining it , and be that beareth the sword , not he only that ought to bear the sword , but he that hath it in possession , though perhaps not rightly acquired ; nor is it said , every soul is to be subject to the powers that are such as they should be , but which are , nor to be good rulers only , but rulers , nor he that useth or beareth it aright , but he that beareth the sword , unto these the apostle requireth subjection of necessity . v. . and that necessity he explaineth to be not only , because they can inflict wrath or punishment as is expressed . v. . but also for conscience sake , that is , as st. peter speaks , pet. . . for conscience towards god , out of regard to gods ordinance . v. , . who by his providence for mans good sets up and disposeth of those powers , and also commandeth them to be owned as by his appointment ; for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies precept as well as providence , like as compound nouns of the same theme do . cor. . heb. . . &c. and to these powers , or rulers , the apostle supposeth the paying of tribute , as the constant use of christians , that then were , and that of right ; for they were gods ministers , or servants attending continually , unto this self same thing , that is , their good. v. . and therefore due to them , as wages for their service to them , and wages that god assignes them , as being his servants in keeping peace , order , righteousness among men , instead of god , who claims this to be his office , and substitutes civil rulers to do it for him , and to receive their tributes and customs , as his receivers . and therefore the apostle requires . v. . christians to render to all their dues : tribute , to whom tribute is due , custome , or toll , to whom custome is due ; fear , to whom fear belongeth , honour , to whom honour appertains ; whom the series of the context plainly shewes to be the higher powers , rulers , that bear the sword , which can be meant of no other than civil magistrates , and governours , such as emperors , kings , senates , and officers , which either make or execuse lawes , belonging to the civil state . now sure if subjection , tribute , or poll-mony , custome , or toll for commodities , imported , or exported , fear , or reverence of their persons and authority , and honour , in respect of their preeminence and dignity , be to be given to them ; then it is contrary to the apostles doctrine to teach disobedience , contempt , withdrawing assistence from them . the reasons which the apostle gives of subjection to powers , are also of much importance for the confirmation of the obligation that lies on christians to yield them obedience , tribute , fear of offending them , and honour of their persons and place ; . because they are powers : now if there be no subjection , they are not powers . . they are higher , supreme , or excelling power , therefore those over whom they are , are to be subject to them , or ordered under them ; or else they usurp anothers place . . they are of god , and what is of god should be owned , not opposed . . they are ordained , or ordered of god , both by his wise providence disposing of such imparity , that there may be good order in humane society , if all were equals , nothing sooner bringing confusion , and hindering common good , as is apparent in armies ( from whence that word we translate ordained , seems to be taken ) all right order requiring first and last , highest and lowest , without which no useful frame , either artificial , or natural , can be erected , or made ; and also by his holy and just command , which requires superiors in place and power to be honoured , feared , assisted and served by inferiors . . hence the apostle infers , that resistence of them is resisting of gods ordinance , & therefore it must needs be a great sin , not only to destroy them , smite them , but also to withstand their power , or by contempt , or subtraction of due aid or subsidie to weaken them ; or to provoke them to anger , because it is contending against god. . the apostle upon the same reason denounceth damnation , or judgment from god , on them that do resist . for , as it is the ordinance of god that is resisted , so is it the judgment or damnation of god which is threatned to be inflicted , in which respect as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or jugment is used . rom. . . without mentioning god , so it is expressed . rom. . , . with mentioning of him . . subjection is further urged , and resistence is condemned . v. . from the use of the powers , or rulers , who are not only by office , but also in act , not a terror to good works , but to evil . for though it were true those rulers that then were , in matters of religion , and in things that pertained to their own profit and lust , were towards some a terror to good works , and abettors of many wicked and injurious practises ; yet in the general , they did not terrifie sober , industrious , and peaceable persons , but those who did actions contrary to them , and did reward and praise them that were useful for the common-wealth ; and therefore they that did well , as saints , or christians should do , they had no reason out of fear to resist them , but in well doing to expect praise from them . . from their deputation from god to do justice , v. , . the apostle argues further the necessity of subjection to them , and the impiety of resisting them , telling them , that the ruler was god's minister 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , three times he gives him these titles , and that to do justice for him ; and therefore he that resists him , resists god , and this cannot be with impunity , god not permitting his bearing the sword for him to be in vain ; but so ordering it , that he is , and shall be an avenger unto wrath unto him that doth evil . all these arguments whereby the apostle enforceth his precept , both for the positive part , requiring subjection , and the negative denying resistence , do shew , that the apostle was very earnest in pressing this duty of subjection to civil magistrates : which it is probable he did the more importunately urge in this epistle , because it was written to the romans , who were inhabitants in that city , where were most oppressions and villainies committed of any part of the world ; and in that time , whether in claudius or nero's reign , in which the powers that were , the caesars , or emperors and rulers under them , were as monstrously vitious , wicked , unrighteous , tyrannous and cruel enemies to christians , as in any time ; and therefore the roman christians might be tempted to think , that sure they were not to be subject to such , but were to resist them . nor doth the apostle only in this place urge the duties of subjection , and non-resistence of civil powers , but also strictly injoins titus in his epistle to him c. . . to put the christians over whom he was , in mind of this , that they should be subject to principalities and powers , to obey magistrates ; intimating thereby , that christians had need to be minded of it , because it was a necessary duty , notwithstanding provocations to the contrary . to these precepts of the apostle paul i shall add the plain precepts of s. peter , epist. c. . v. , , , , . where he thus chargeth christians : submit yours●lves to every ordinance of man , or humane creature , for the lords sake : whether it be to the king as supreme , or unto governors , as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evil doers , and for the praise of them that do well . for so is the will of god , that with well-doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men . as free and not using your liberty for a cloak of malic●ousness , but as the servants of god. honour all men ; love the brotherhood ; fear god , honour the king. in which words s. peter commands subjection to every ordinance of man , where as the adversaries forbid subjection to any humane creature or ordinance , any government whatsoever that is of mans erecting , building and planting . the apostle bid , be subject for the lord , as jehosaphat said to the judges , chron. . . take heed what ye do , for ye judge not for man , but for the lord , who is with you in the judgement ; but the adversaries say , subjection is against the lord : the apostle bids submit to the king as supreme , or excelling ; they say , submit not to the king , he is not supreme , nor excels ; none hath any just title to rule now ; kings are from the dragon , the worst of men ; the saints are to smite them : he saith , submit to governors , as unto them that are sent by him ; they say , submit not to them , because sent by him , for they and all that own them are antichristian : the apostle saith , they are sent by him for the punishment of evil d●ers , and the praise of them that do well ; these say , they are sent to oppresse the saints , and to uphold babylon : the apostle saith , that so is the will of god , that ye submit to kings and governors sent by him ; they say , it is the will of god , that ye oppose , smite them : the apostle saith , that ye may so put to silence the ignorance of foolish men ; they say , by so doing ye shall promote the interest of babylon : the apostle joins these , fear god , honour the king ; and in like manner solomon , prov. . . my son fear thou the lord and the king ; they say , fear god , vilifie , destroy the king. now it is to be observed , that the caesars , powers , rulers , principalities , who then bare the sword , the kings and governors then sent by the king , were the roman emperors , kings and governors under them , who were all of them great idolaters , took the title of pontifex maximus , as being chief about the idol service of jupiter and other heathen gods , none of them christians by profession , or jews , but enemies to both , and fierce and cruel persecutors of christians , and some of them so unrighteous , and vitious , that one of them , particularly nero , was adjudged by the senate hostis patriae the enemy of his countrey , in whose time st. paul and st. peter are thought to have written their epistles , yet did they require subjection to them , and therefore to teach , they are to be resisted , and smitten for those qualities , to whom the apostles notwithstanding them require subjection , honour , and payment of tribute , is with most impudent face to gainsay the apostles doctrine . and because that it seems out of doubt to them , that ecclesiastical rulers should be vilified , opposed , as being antichristian , being conceived to be against their imagined fifth-monarchy , i will add the words of st. paul upon occasion of the high priest ananias his commanding them that stood by him to smite him on his mouth for saying , i have lived in all good conscience before god unto this day , whereupon he said to him god shall smite thee , th●u whited wall : for sittest thou to judge me after the law , and commandest thou me to be smitten contrary to the law ? which occasioned them that stood by to say , revilest thou gods high priest ? in reply whereto correcting himself , st. paul said , i wist not brethren , that he was the high priest , for it is written , thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people . i acknowledge there is not a little difficulty to acquit st. paul from falsehood , or dissembling in saying , he knew not that ananias was the high priest ; sundry waies are conceived which may be seen in mr. gataker's cinnus lib. . c. . i rest on that , on which after chrysostom , cajetan , isidor clarius , aretius , mountagu , gataker and heinsius exercit : sacr : lib. . c. . pitch , that by reason of the confusion , that then was in the government , the high priests then not succeeding according to the law of god in the family of aaron , nor continuing during life , but by bribes and evil arts being promoted and removed by the kings , and governors at pleasure , insomuch that ( as heinsius speaks ) it is manifest there was then such anarchy , that d●ily as it were they were and were not high priests : besides paul's long absence from jerusalem , his unacquaintance with affairs there , especially in the government of the temple , and council of the jews ( the place , manner of sitting , habit not distinguishing him from the rest ) it may well be conceived that he did not then distinctly know ananias to be the high priest , nor perhaps one of the council regularly constituted : though it be said v. . he earnestly beheld the council . and it to me seems the more likely , that he did not perceive him to be high priest , because he directs his speech to them with the same compellations as he did acts . . under the titles of men and brethren , without distinguishing him from the rest , or any respective speech to them as a regular court of justice , but as a company gathered together by the chief captain to accuse and examine him , not to judge him . which is the more likely , by reason of what he did v. . in bespeaking them under the title of men brethren ; and , perceiving them to be of different parties , he used art to set them at variance , and to break up the assembly in a confused manner , which he would not have done , had it been a court legally set . however we determin of st. pauls knowledge of ananias , it is clear that he doth not impute his speech v. . to prophetick liberty , as grotius imagines when he saith in his annot. on acts . . utitur jure prophetae , nor justify it , but corrects it , and imputes it to his ignorance , and adds the command of the law , exod. . . for it is written thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people , following therein the greek version , the whole verse being , thou shalt not revile the gods , that is , as is conceived , judges , or god , nor curse the ruler of thy people . which being alledged by st. paul as in force , and applyed to himself , as thereby condemning his speech of opprobrious and threatning language , if it were not excused by his ignorance , doth plainly prove , that a ruler of the people , though an ecclesiastick , and climbing to the place by indirect means , unrighteously judging , opposing the truth , the kingdom and apostle of christ , yet should not be reviled , or with menaces terrified , or cursed , but being in the possession of a rulers place be regarded in words and actions as a ruler . to which i shall add some more passages of the old testament , st. pauls allegation of this shewing , that they are moral , and still binding christians . eccl. . . curse not the king , no not in thy thought , or conscience , and curse not the rich in thy bed-chamber : for a bird of the ayr shall carry the voice , and that which hath wings shall tell the matter . eccles. . . i counsel thee to keep the kings commandment , and that in regard of the oath of god. out of all which i conclude , that the minor of my argument is sufficiently proved , that the doctrine which commendeth and urgeth such disobedience , vilifying , refusing assistance , smiting of powers , whether civil or ecclesiastical , or military , as th● words cited by me do , is contrary to the precepts of christ , his holy apostles , and other holy men in the holy scriptures , and consequently damnable and antichristian . § . the exceptions of fifth-monarchy-men and others against the first argument are refelled . against this argument which overthrows also the doctrines of jesuited pontificians and other opposers , deposers , and smiters of kings and other rulers , there are sundry exceptions taken . one exception is , that those precepts were for that time , when the christians were unable to resist . but this is prevented by the apostles words , rom. . . ye must needs be subject , not only for wrath , but also for conscience sake . another , that these precepts tie us to submit to these rulers , and not to resist them , till they cease to be rulers , which they do when excommunicate , deprived by the pope . but if the pope be comprehended under every soul , as chrysostom conceived even the apostles were , then the pope himself is to be subject to rulers , and consequently cannot depose them ; nor hath the scripture given this power to the pope , or man , to depose them , it being god's prerogative , as is said psal. . . god is the judge , he putteth down one , and setteth up another . another evasion is , that subjection is required to rulers , while they are a terror to evil works , & not to good , but not when they oppresse , are enemies to gods people , christ's kingdom , then they cease to be rulers ; but this is prevented by the apostle , who saith , the powers that be are ordained of god , and therefore to them , as they are , subjection is to be given ; and resistence is forbidden by s. paul. but the chief exception is that which p. of the banner displayd is in these words : now then we say , that called the ordinance of god , proves the ordinance of the devil ; and though the powers of the great image might be taken for the ordinance of god , so long as they kept their pure , civil , and unmixed state ; so saith paul , the powers that be ( i. e. the civil powers of old rome , tho a bloudy persecutor , and devourer of the creation , and god's heritage ) are ordained of god ; yet when the power of rome adulterated from its pure civil state , and becomes a mixt antichristian state , the beast , and a whore , then it is said of that beastly , antichristian power , that the dragon , or satan gave him his power , and his seat , and great authority ; and what then is this save the ordinance of hell ? to which i reply , if i understand them aright , this is their meaning , that the powers of the great image that is the kings , emperors and rulers of the world then ceased to be gods ordinance , and became the ordinance of hell , when that was fulfilled , which we read revel . . . which they take for granted was , when the empire of rome , or the ten kings that arose out of the division of it , did give their power and strength , as it is revel . . . unto the beast mentioned v. . which it 's without doubt with them to be the bishop of romes pretended supremacy , dominion , oecumenieal vicarship , by which christian religion was corrupted , mixed with paganish , and jewish rites , and the ten kings and their kingdoms made dependent on the pope . and consequently subjection , and assistance is not due to the civil , or ecclesiastical , or military powers or laws that now are , being built or erected upon the old foundation of the fourth monarchy in this supposed mixt estate , but they are warranted and bound , as being the stone expressed dan. . , , . to smite , destroy , utterly dissolve the powers of the fourth monarchy ( which they conceive to be all the present ) in their persons , offices , laws , titles , priviledges and whole constitution , and to take to themselves all the power and dominion in the earth in order to the erecting of the fifth-monarchy , which they call christs visible kingdom upon earth . now surely such a monstrous giant-like claim as this , exceeding any of the proud claims of nebuchadnezzar , or any of the persian , roman turkish monarchs , had need of very good cards for it , some unquestionable charter or grant of heaven , especially when it so flatly opposeth such plain precepts as i have alledged to the contrary , which unless they be proved to be relaxed or repealed by a divine sentence , testified by some infallible evidence of miracles or otherwise , such as christ and his apostles had , do prove , that this claim , and the doctrine that teacheth such practises , as they incite men to , is from the devil himself , who is the great abaddon , or destroyer of the world. sure christ , when he bid his disciples teach men to observe all that he had commanded , promising , to be with them all daies unto the end of the world , matth. . . and s. paul , when he thus wro●● to timothy , epist. ch . . , . i give thee charge in the sight of god , who quickeneth all things , and before jesus christ , who before pontius pilate witn●ssed the good confession , that thou keep this commandment ( whereof prayer and thanksgiving for kings and all that are in authority , tim. . , , . obedience to masters , tim. . . are a part ) without spot , unrebukeable , until the appearing of our lord jesus christ , did conceive their commands to be binding until christs second coming . and sith he only hath power to repeal , release , dispense with a law , who hath a power , either legislative , or declarative of law superiour or equal to his ; who gave , or at first authoritatively declared it , it can be no less than pope-like , or dictator-like arrogance in some persons , upon pretence of a peculiar revelation to them , no way demonstrated , but in an obscure claucular meeting for consultation imagined to be communicated to them , determin , that which st. paul said was the ordinance of god , to be the ordinance of hell , because they say it , and to exceed the pharisees in arrogance , whom our saviour chargeth with hypecrisie for making the commandment of god of none effect by their tradition ; though it were the tradition of their elders , or chief rabbins , or doctors . matth. . , . this bidding defiance to all the powers of the earth ; and this taking on them , to make void so plain precepts of christ and his apostles , without any other proof than they bring , is in my apprehension , one of the greatest pieces of pride and arrogancy that i have met with , and as great a delusion as i think this age hath afforded . § . suppositions implyed in the quinto-monarchians exceptions are shewed to be uncertain , as those about the stone & it's smiting . dan. . . . nevertheless let us examine what they say , of which some things are supposed , some things are inferred . the things supposed and inferred are these : . that the fourth kingdom mentioned . dan. . and . is the roman empire ; which i will not deny , though there be not a few very learned men , that take the fourth monarchy to be the empire of the successors of alexander the great , and that upon such reasons , as might make sober men not too peremptory in the contrary opinion , much less to make the future smiting of it an article of faith , and the visible kingdom of christ to succeed it . . that the kingdom mentioned to be set up dan. . . shall be an external visible kingdom on earth ; which is yet more doubtful , being more controverted among godly learned men : and that upon such weighty considerations on both sides , as may make considerate men , if not to suspend their judgement , yet not too resolutely to assert it , nor obtrude it with such zeal , as the quinto-monarchians do , as an article of faith , and build such mighty attempts , commotions in the world , and hopes on so uncertain a foundation . . that , in the daies of these kings must be meant at the end of the fourth monarchy , when all the materials of the image shall be broken in pieces , and scattered so as no place was found for them : whereas it is far more probable , that it was set up when christ began to preach the gospel , as john baptist and our lord intimated , when he invited men to repent and believe the gospel , for the kingdom heaven was at hand ; very likely alluding to those places in daniel ch . . . in their daies the god of heaven shall set up a kingdom , which shall never be destroyed , and therefore called the kingdom of heaven to distinguish it from the kingdoms of men set up by them , not by the god of heaven ; whereto the like is dan. . . and seems to be referred to the spiritual kingdom of christ , which the saints of the most high do take , as the author to the hebrews ch . . . saith , wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken , let us have , or hold fast , grace , whereby we may serve god acceptably , with reverence and godly fear ; which no man doubts , to be meant of the receiving the kingdom of christ , by faith in him , upon the preaching of the gospel . . there is a distinction made between the kingdom of the stone , and the kingdom of the mountain , as if they were either several kingdoms , or at least of several conditions and qualifications ; whereas the text doth distinguish them no otherwise than in their extent , not one spiritual , the other visible & external , the one the working kingdom , the other the kingdom of glory . . that the stone , which must do the smiting and breaking work , is not christ personal only , but also christ mystical with his members , or to use the words of mr. tillinghast , though this stone fundamentally is christ himself , yet considered as smiting the great image , it can be no other but christ mystical , christ in his members . but sure in this they are mistaken , this work being made in scripture christs own peculiar work , matth. . , , . jesus saith unto them , did ye never read in the scriptures , the stone which the builders rejected , the same is become the head of the corner ? this is the lords doing , and it is marvellous in our eyes . therefore i say unto you , the kingdom of god shall be taken from you , and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof . and whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken ; but on whomsoever it shall fall , it will grind him to powder , or dash him to pieces . in which passage it is apparent that by the kingdom of god ( which is to be conceived the same with that dan. . . ) is meant the kingdom which was then among the jews , which was no other than the spiritual kingdom of christ , and the stone , whose work is to grind to powder , or dash to pieces , ( which is to be conceived to be the same , with the smiting and breaking , dan. . . . ) is that stone , which was rejected by the builders , and should become the head of the corner ; which is no other but christ personal , who was crucified by the rulers of the jews , but raised up from death and set at gods right hand ; and so became the corner stone of gods spiritual house or church , as it is expresly expounded by peter , acts. . . pet. . , , , , . and of him it is said , that he shall change our vile body , that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body , according to the working , whereby he is able to subdue all things unto himself , philip. . . . it is supposed , that this smiting work shall be by military power , or by fighting : whereas , if the cutting of the stone out of the mountain , be the setting up of the kingdom , it must be without hands , dan. . . , . by the god of heaven , and therefore to be done some other way , as zech. . . the return of the jews , and their establishing in their land under zerubbabel should be not by might , or army , nor by power , but by gods spirit , or , as it is said , isai. . . of christ , that he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth , and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked . by his preaching , or by his angels , or by his creatures , as by flaming fire he may smite , as when it is said , thes. . , , , . the lord jesus shall be revealed from heaven , with his mighty angels in flaming fire , taking vengence on them that know not god , and that obey not the gospel of our lord jesus christ ; who shall be punished with everlasting destruction , from the presence of the lord , and the glory of his power , when he shall come to be glorified in his saints ; and to be admired in all them that believe . and thus shall gog and magog be smitten , revel . . . when they shall go up on the breadth of the earth , and compass the camp of the saints about , and the beloved city , fire shall come down from god out of heaven and devour them . by these and other means , the stone may smite the feet of the great image , without swords , and such like military weapons , and fighting , and that be fulfilled , which is promised psal. . . thou shalt break them with a rod of iron , thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potters vessels . as he is described revel . . . that out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword , so he warneth , revel . . . repent ; or else i will come unto thee quickly , and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth . yea , when it is promised , v. , . he that overcometh and keepeth my works unto the end , to him will i give power over the nations ( and he shall rule them with a rod of iron : as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers ) even as i received of my father : it is to be understood of their prayers , as revel . . . revel . . , . revel . . , . as james . . revel . . . not of arms , and armies , he that reads revel . and . chapters , wherein is foretold the destruction of the beast , and the false prophet , may see more reason to conceive that christ will do it by plagues , as god did the egyptians by moses , or some other invisible way without the saints ; or if he use the saints , he will do it by their prayers and testimonie , without other fighting . and therefore if it were granted ; that that , with which the fifth kingdom doth begin , the work of the great image , the overturning the thrones of the kings is to be performed by the saints , as chief instruments in the mannagement of it ; yet it is not true , which mr. tillinghast saith in his . sermon p. . then it follows of necessity , there must be such a thing as the civil and military power to be in the hands of the saints , and that before the day of christs appearance , they must have this power in their hands , for the performance of that work . so that notwithstanding this pretence , it is evil and horribly wicked , for them that have called themselves , the saints and people of god , to seek for it , to pray for it , to plead for it , as the fifth monarchy men have done , contrary to the plain precepts of christ and his apostles , seeking for it by killing innocent men , under pretence of praying to god , and keeping fasts , cursing their governors , and pleading by revilings , and false accusations , and most horrid pervertings of holy scripture , and self magnifyings for a power , not belonging to them . . it is supposed , that if the smiting work be to be done by men , it must be by saints in their notion . but there is no proof of this , or rather the words of scripture do plainly tell us ; that the work is to be done by those kings , which they conceive , they should destroy as antichristian , in order to the setting up of the fifth monarchy . for thus we read revel . . , . and the ten horns , which thou sawest upon the beast , these shall hate the whore , and shall make her desolate , and naked , and shall eat her flesh , and burn her with fire . for god hath put in their hearts , to fulfil his will , and to agree , and give their kingdom unto the beast , until the words of god shall be fulfilled . so that whereas these men imagin such an inconsistency with gods purpose and glory to use the kings and governments , which have supported the whore of babylon for her ruine , and therefore incite men to such hatred , and emnity against them , and with much disdain , stomack , and bitter zeal ; not knowing what spirit they are of , do vilify , inveigh against , and curse them , and seek their total abolition , glorying , like frantick men , in their own satanical spirit and designs , they should rather endeavour to do such things as might make princes favour them , and hate the whore ; and rather admire , bless and magnify the providence and work of god , in using them as instruments to pull her down , whose predecessors out of their blind devotion , set up the whore , and to protect the servants of god , who were by their ancestors destroyed . . it is supposed that this smiting work is to be done by gentile saints , who are such as they have characterized them . but this hath no evidence to prove it . for though i will not exclude the gentile saints from being meant dan. . . , , , . yet it is very probable ( which junius , piscator and others observe ) that by saints in those places are specially meant the jewish people , called , ch . . . the host of heaven v. . the holy people , or people of the holy ones ch . . , , , . gods people , and their city jerusalem called by gods name , his sanctuary , the holy city , ch . . . . the holy covenant , ch . . . the holy people . yea sundry of those , that are much followed in this argument ( as mr. mede comment . on revel . . . ) do conceive , that by the kings of the east who shall have their way prepared for expedition against the beast ; are meant the jews . and sundry prophecies there are in the old and new testament , which do seem to foretel the kingdom to be restored to israel , according to the question acts . . and therefore the more likely , when they are converted to christ , if any saints on earth , to be chief instruments of destroying babylon , which hath oppressed them , or that fourth kingdom , which hath been as strong as iron , and broken in pieces and subdued all . . it is supposed , that this smiting work is the work of this generation , and to be begun by the pretended publick spirited saints of this nation . whereas mr. tillinghast himself serm. . p. . saith , the work of christs kingdom , the glorious beginning of it , it shall be about the time of the jews coming in : and indeed the coming in of the jews , shall be a very great advancement of this kingdom . i omit what mr. parker conceives of the waldenses , and others , as long since beginning and carrying it on . there is nothing yet appears , but a violent , heady , presumptuous spirit in those persons , who have thought themselves fit to begin the work , nor in the times , but the commotions that have been , which gives colour to this supposition . § . quinto-monarchians hypotheses about the civil governments , being from the fourth monarchy , rome and the dragon , are shewed to be groundless . . it is supposed , that the civil powers that be are of old rome , or the fourth monarchy , or ( as they speak ) growing upon the old root of wickednesse and bitternesse , or being a remnant of the old foundation , which is their expressions in the banner displayd , [ p. . there will be no rest till the fourth kingdom , which divides it self into two iron legs , ten toes , and a little horn be wholly destroyed , in all the laws , constitutions , governments , and reliques thereof . p. . the fifth kingdom which is christs , with its holy , just , and righteous laws , and officers must arise , with destruction to , and stand up in the place of the fourth kingdom , and the laws and officers thereof ] shew to be the laws , constitutions , governments and orders of the roman empire ; and they assert a legislative power , to make laws to govern the nations only in christ , and his laws and officers only are to have place ; and in the book entituled the standard set up , printed . p. . they say that the scriptures ( being given by inspiration of god with his holy spirit ) are the revealed will and rule of this legislator , to be constantly owned , and submitted unto in times of war and peace , as a constant standing rule for the inward and outward man ( wherein are laws , statues , precepts , and judgments for all cases , conditions , and actions of civil , military , and spiritual concerns , either in particular , or more general terms ; ) for so they were to the common-wealth of israel , the only type of the lambs government . but these suppositions in a great part are notoriously false . for the government by king , lords , and commons , as it is constituted in england , is quite different from old rome , whether under the caesars or popes , not derived from them , but from the saxons of normans , or some other of the ancient rulers of this island ; nor are the laws of england , by which it is governed in civil affairs , the laws of the emperors , which are that which we call the civil law , consisting of the edicts and constitution of roman emperors ; nor the canon law , consisting of popes decrees and decretals : but the common and statute laws of these nations , which he that reads the chronicles of england , the writings of sir thomas smith of the common-wealth of england , mr. cambdens britannia , sir edward cookes institutes , the preface of sir john davis to his irish reports , the book of statutes , may easily perceive to have another original , and to be much different from them . if there were no more but the daily practice of the courts of justice , and the manner of choosing & making judges and officers to refute this calumny , it were enough to shew the grosse falshood of this supposition . and yet , were the laws and form of government the same with old rome , they were not therefore antichristian , and we released from obedience to them : for , not only christ and his apostles required obedience to them , but also s. paul both made use of them , and commended them , acts . . and . . and . , , . which if they had been antichristian , ( as they give out clamorously , but ignorantly ) and to be opposed with greatest hatred , doubtlesse they would not have done . as for the other part of the supposition , though we grant , that our lord christ is the supreme legislator , and wherein he hath determined any thing his laws are to stand in force , above and against all constitutions and laws of men , yet we find not that christ did , or intended to make any particular laws for thousands of things which pertain to civil government , no , nor for many things pertaining to gods worship and church-government , which yet require a determination by some laws or rules for good order to be kept thereabout . when one of the company said unto him , master , speak to my brother , that he divide the inheritance with me ; he said unto him , man , who made me a judge or divider over you ? luk. . , . nor did the apostles , or the governors after them , or christians , as such , intermeddle with making laws or judging civil affairs , any farther than they were intrusted either by the roman governors , or according to christs appointment , matth. . , , . or the apostles directions about composing differences between christians . cor. . . &c. or the exercise of ecclesiastical censure , or miraculous power did require . though it is not to be denied that in aftertimes too much of this work was either commited by christian emperors , or assumed by the rulers , and governors of christian churches , especially by popes of rome to the great detriment of christianity . as for the holy scriptures , though we acknowledge their sufficiency for a rule in matters of faith and holy life , in order to the end wherefore they were inspired of god , to wit , the honouring and serving of god , and our own salvation : yet we do not find in them sufficient laws in particular for the governing of all civill commonwealths , but that judges and officers ( notwithstanding what we find in the books of m●ses and the prophets , and other holy writings ) would be to seek how to pass sentence , and to administer justice in thousands of cases that occur about lands , wills , trades , and other actions , which concern human affairs and society ; yea , they that have perused the talmuds , and writings of the jewish doctors , do find , that notwithstanding the body of laws given by god himself , yet by reason of the varying of cases , many resolutions there are added by their judges , or lawyers , which they receive as laws . and this was thought so necessary , that god erected a senate among them , with strict injunction to the jews to do according to the sentence , which they of that place ( which the lord shall choose ) should shew them , and to observe to do according to all that they informed them , deut. . . which was in effect all one as to impower them to make laws for them . sure notwithstanding the written laws of moses , solomon had been at a stand how to give sentence in the case of the two harlots , had not god given him an extraordinary spirit of wisdom to do judgment , kings . . nor can the mosaical or jewish laws fit the government of this nation , unless there were the same distribution of lands , the same state of people , and neighbour nations , the same manner of trade and living as they had . and it is to be considered , whether this asserting of the laws of the jews as a constant standing rule to us gentiles , be not indeed the same error of judaism , which was condemned by the synod at jerusalem , acts . and the writings of the apostles , and counted as an heresy , which did evacuate the benefit of our christian liberty , which christ hath purchased , by losing of which we may forfeit our interest in christ , and their lawes be so far from being the only lawes fit for the government of christs kingdom , that they may in many things be most unfit , and contention for them to be imposed on gentile belivers more justly to be counted antichristian , than the civil lawes of the nations , which they so much oppose as antiehristian , nor can those lawes be fitted for the kingdom of christ , which they look for : for that kingdom will be , when all christs enemies shall be made his footstool , christ shall personally raign , as they conceive , on earth , it shall be a kingdom , which shall have a s●at , s●nless , sorrowless , deathless , superiorless , having no humane ruling majesty , no church censures , no superiority of persons ; no fears ; no wants ; no desertions ; no painful labour ; no decay ; no procreation of children , as dr. homes reckons them in his resurrection revealed , lib. . c. . and therefore this supposition , and the inference that is made thereupon , is false , and insufficient , and it would be not only a sin against god , but also a most extream degree of wickedness to destroy our lawes , records , government upon this pretence , and all men are truly bound in conscience to defend them , and to oppose those as antichristian , and enemies to christs kingdom , who would disanul them . as for the common-wealth of israel , its being the only type of the lambs government , gal. . . it is so in respect of the spiritual kingdom of christ , in which believers are an holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to god through jesus christ , a royal preisthood to shew forth gods praises , pet. . . . and , if this reason be of validity to tie us to their lawes , it will tie us to the lawes about the jewish temple , priesthood , sacrifices , and the rest of the ceremonial lawes ; which were to reduce us from christ to moses , and compleat judaism . as then it was a pretious benefit , which the gospel brought , that the gentiles were not tied to those particular lawes of religious service , which were required of the jews , that the yoke was not put upon the neck of the disciples , which neither the fathers , nor the apostles were able to bear , acts , . . but that many things even in gods worship were to be determined by prudence of rulers , according as might best fit the service of god , with respect to the condition of several people : so much more in civil affairs , it was the great goodness of god , and a great advantage to the furthering of christs kingdom , among the gentiles ▪ that the gospel did not impose on the nations , either the mosaical , or any other particular lawes , or civil government : but left them to their own lawes and government in such things ; and required christians to submit to them , without which there is no likelihood , christianity had been embraced as it was , nor christians to have subsisted , and been multiplied among infidels , as they were . and therefore whereas the quinto-monarchians , have made such great stirs , as they have done , not only for a reformation in ecclesiastical discipline , and worship , but also to bring the government and lawes civil to the jewish platform in the holy scriptures , ( which is their diana ) they have therein followed their own fancy , not the holy scriptures , but to the great wrong of the church of god , and injury to his name and truth , caused many to follow their pernicious ways , by reason of whom the way of truth is evil spoken of ; so that of them may be verified , which we read , rom. . , , , . their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness , their feet are swift to shed blood , destruction and misery are in their ways , and the way of peace have they not known . . it is granted by them , that the powers of the great image might be taken for the ordinance of god , so long as they kept their pure , civil and unmixed estate , so saith paul , the powers that be ( i. e. the civil powers of old rome tho a bloody persecutor , and devourer of the creation , and gods heritage ) are ordained of god. in which passage they intimate , . that the civil powers of old rome , were a bloody persecutor and devourer of the creation , and gods heritage . . that then they kept their pure civil , and unmixed estate . . that so long , though they were the powers of the great image , yet they might be taken for the ordinance of god ; according to st. paul , rom. . . . that therefore so long they were to be obeyed , and not resisted . for discovery of the fallacy , that is in these speeches , it is needful , that it should be inquired into , what they mean by the civil powers of old rome , keeping their pure civil and unmixed estate . the opposite estate is thus expressed , when the power of rome adulterated from it's pure civil state , became a mixt antichristian state , the beast and a whore : the power of rome , was in the apostle pauls time , the power of the emperors , whether caius , caligula , claudius , nero , and the senate , and consuls of rome , the praetors , kings , presidents , such as herod , agrippa , pilate , felix , festus , and others under them . the unmixed estate , seems to be their not taking upon them that , which after the emperors , or popes did , when they became antichristian . now sure what ever it were , that after the civil powers of rome assumed , or did , it is certain , that they were , as it is confessed , the powers of the great image , bloody persecutors , and devourers of the creation , and gods heritage , and i may add , as wicked and impure in their lives , as they were afterwards , yea and as monstrously idolatrous , as afterwards . the emperors then took to themselves the title of pontifex , maximus , which was kept till the christian emperors time , and that title imported their power and inspection about the idolatrous rites of the romans , whereby they took charge of the worship of jupiter , and other roman deities , and were zealous for it so as to persecute them to death with extream cruelty , who would not offer incense to their idols , nor swear by them ; yea they did some of them urge jews and other people to worship either themselves or their statues as gods , as caligula , domitian , and caused the abomination and desolation spoken of by daniel the prophet , to stand in the holy place , of which our saviour foretels , matth. . . and though the popish idolatry in the worshiping of the host , bowing down to crucifixes , images , praying to deceased saints , creeping to crosses , adoring of reliques and other superstitions of the romanists be horribly impious , and their cruelty in destroying them that will not adore their consecrated host , be very satanical , and so their power and the exercise of it whereby they take on them to condemn as hereticks them that will not worship their idols , and whereby princes at their beck do execute their sentences cruelly , be from satan , or the dragon in the use of it in these things , yet it is doubted whether the popish idolatry be greater , or so bad as the heathenish idolatry of the romans in st. paul's time . yea dr. john burges in his answer rejoined to the reply to dr. morton's defence of the ceremonies , ch . . sect . . hath maintained against mr. parker , that the popish idolatry is not as vile in it self as ever was any of turks or pagans . and it is plain , that in the revelation the power of the emperors , as they used it in persecution of christians for not worshipping idols , is ascribed to the divel before the pretended mixt antichristian state , as well as after . revel . . . behold the divel shall cast some of you into prison , when he did it by the pagan emperors and their officers . v. . i know thy works and where thou dwellest , even where satans throne is ; and thou holdest fast my name , and hast not denied my faith , even in those daies wherein antipas was my faithfull martyr , who was slain among you where satan dwelleth . on which saith brightman , it is not obscure why it is called the throne of satan . for the city where the heathen emperors had their seat , who professedly warred against the lamb , is called the throne of the dragon , ch . . . so of the daughters and lower cities those which come nearer to the mind of this prince , because they yield a palace more prepared for the divel , are notified by the same name . and revel . . . where it is said , behold a great red dragon having seven heads & ten horns , & seven crowns upon his head , on its saith mede , a wonder or representation of the empire of rome heathen worshiping the dragon ; the large annotations on the bible . a great red dragon , the heathen roman emperors succeeding one another , who did the divel service , as in other things , so chiefly in persecuting the church v. . ch . . . the like , if need were , might be shewed to be the opinion of brightman , diodat● , pareus , piscator and others . by which and many other passages in holy scripture it may appear , that the heathen emperors had that power , whereby they persecuted the church of christ from satan , and were as great idolaters as those under the papacy , and were as serviceable to the divel , and yet are granted to be the ordinance of god , and though the powers of the great image even the iron legs , yet were not to be resisted , but the saints , even every soul , the holy apostles themselves not excepted , were to be subject to them under pain of damnation , whence it follows , that there is no warrant for english pretended , or real saints to smite the present powers , to oppose , resist , overthrow the present laws , government and governors , though it were yielded ( which is not ) that they were part of the fourth monarchy , kept not their pure civil and unmixed state , were oppressors , shed the blood of the saints , and what ever else the quinto-monarchians do object against them . doubtless however sir walter raleigh have aggravated the cruelties of king henry the th of england , and perhaps others may represent in the most odious manner the government of other princes , yet they exceed not nero , domitian and other of the roman heathen emperors in cruelty to the christian believers , nor in uncleanness , and unrighteousness , and yet st. paul and st. peter and our lord christ himself command subjection even to such . and therefore these things cannot release the quinto-monarchians from subjection , but their pleas for their smiting work are proved to be damnable and antichristian . . it is supposed , when the power of rome was adulterated from its pure civil state , and becomes a mixt antichristian state , the beast and a whore , ( which they conceive of the present civil powers of the nations even the protestant , and particularly those of england ) then it is said of that beastly antichristian power , that the dragon or satan gave him his power , & his seat and great authority , and what then is this save the ordinance of hell ? to examine this it is to be observed , . that they suppose it was the civil power of rome which is meant , revel . . . . by the beast , and that it is meant of the civil powers , since they became in name christian. which i will not gainsay , because of the words of the angel revel . . . and the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings , which have received no kingdom as yet , but receive power as kings one hour with the beast , though there are , or have been , that understand by it heathen emperors , afore they embraced christianity , or an emperor not yet extant , that i may omit other conjectures : and therefore this is not to be taken as so certain , that on it should be grounded so strange a work as the smiting of all the civil powers of europe , which is deduced from it . . it is supposed , that then the civil powers were adulterated from their pure civil and unmixed estate . by pure civil and unmixed estate they must mean ( if i be not mistaken ) that afore that time the roman emperors did not meddle with the matters of religion or of the church : ( which is most notoriously false , for they took the title of pontifex maximus , ruled in the business of the worship of their gods , did forbid christian worship , and persecuted christians to the death ) and that they did afterwards , which is also false . for the emperors christian did reject that title , and demolished the temples of idols , promoted the christian worship , contended with the bishops that did set up images in the churches , and if by the mixture be meant their assuming ecclesiastical power , i suppose these objectors will not charge them with this , it being to their great vexation , that the bishops , especially the bishops of rome claimed , and usurped authority over emperors and kings ( as he doth at this day ) to excommunicate them , & if they reconciled not themselves to them to depose them , and many of the emperors and kings did contend against this usurpation in many sore wars . if by mixture of state be meant the assisting of the popes to destroy the opposers of the papacy , i acknowledge it true , that there were too many that did so . but in this there was no mixture of civil & ecclesiastical power , but rather a concurrence , the ecclesiastical keeping to themselves the judgment of heresies , and putting upon the secular power the execution of their sentence , whereby they did debase the civil power in making it subservient to them , but made no mixture of state. which appeared in that some of the civil powers , that kept their civil government as before , yet did oppose this usurpation in popes and prelates in making them their executioners to destroy those who were judged hereticks by them , and therefore this act of theirs was the evil of those persons that did it , but not of the civil government it self . . it is supposed that then the civil powers were the beast and a whore . which no doubt alludes to that which we read revel . . , , &c. of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters , and v. . . the whore is resembled by a woman sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast , and v. . it is said , and the woman which thou sawest , is that great city , which reigneth over the kings of the earth . which few do deny to be meant of rome , some of the learned papists themselves granting it to be meant of rome , though they would have it believed , that rome is so called the whore while it was heathen , not since it became christian. others there are , chiefly those of the protestant churches , who do conceive by the whore is meant rome papal , as conceiving the descriptions ofher and her practises , cannot be applied to rome as it was paganish , or ethnick . whether this , or the other , or any other opinion be right , it is not needful now to discuss : it is sufficient , that the civil powers of rome , whether ethnick , or christian , or in a future estate cannot well be termed the beast and a whore too , sith the text makes them distinct , or , if they may , yet sure the civil powers are not the whore , sith it is said . v. . the kings of the earth have committed fornication with the whore , and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication ; therefore , the kings of the earth , and inhabiters of the earth , must not be confounded , with the whore. and v. . it is said , and the ten horns ( who are ten kings , which had received no kingdom then . v. . and therefore not while rome was ethnick , but after it's being christian ) which thou sawest upon the beast , these shall hate the whore , and shall make her desolate , and naked , and shall eat her flesh , and burn her with fire : therefore the kings ( which are the civil powers ) are not the same with the whore , but , though at first beguiled by her shall at last hate , and consume her , when they shall be undeceived . . it is supposed , that then the power of rome , when adulterated from its pure civil estate became a mixt antichristian state , or a beastly antichristian power . what is meant by antichristian state , or antichristian power is not easy to resolve . it is true the apostle john makes mention of many antichrists that should come in the last time , among which his words intimate , that there should be a special antichrist , that they had heard should come , john . . and v. . he saith , he is antichrist that denieth the father and the son , and ch . . v. . he saith , and every spirit , that confesseth not that jesus christ is come in the flesh , is not of god : and this is that spirit of antichrist , whereof ye have heard that it should come , and even already is it in the world . and in his second epistle v. . for many deceivers are entered into the world , who confess not that jesus christ is come in the flesh . this is a , or the deceiver , and an , or the antichrist , which words seem to import , that those erroneous seducing teachers , whether gnosticks , or other , who were risen in that time , when these epistles were written , were , it is likely , called antichrists from their opposition to the true doctrine concerning the coming of jesus christ in the flesh-nevertheless many of the ancients , in after ages , did often give hints of the expectation of christians , commonly entertained , whether from st. johns words , or some other tradition , that there would arise some more remarkable antichrist , who should , whether by power , or deceit , corrupt , or infest the church of christ , beyond what was done in his daies . and this hath been imagined by some of them , should be a roman , the same with the man of sin , thes. . . that wicked , or lawless one , v. . the beast , revel . . . and the whore of babylon , revel . . . which in many ages the great corruptions in the popes of rome , and their courts , caused to be applied ever and anon , by some or other of the best and learnedst of their times , to the popes and papacy . and since the time of luther , it hath been almost generally received by protestant writers of all sorts , that the popes , and papacy , especially since pope boniface the third , usurped the title of oecumenical bishop , as proper to his see , and gregory the seventh , the power of deposing emperors , and boniface the eight , the welding of both swords , civil and ecclesiastical , are the antichrist , man of sin , beast , and whore of babylon foretold , that he should come , by st. paul , and st. john. and not a few very learned , and sober godly men , both of bishops and presbyters in england , ireland , france , and other nations have asserted it by preaching and writing ; and have made it one of their chief pleas , for their refusing communion with , and enmity against the late bishops of rome , and the papal church , although some of late have thought otherwise , and have endeavoured to apply those passages to some other , whether rightly , or not , i do not now determin . whence it hath come to pass , that as the papists , who still adhere to the bishop of rome , as christs vicar , and st. peters successor , swallow down all that comes from rome , be it never so vain and erroneous : so on the other side those , who have been induced by the arguments inforced from the places of holy scripture alledged to conceive , that the popes , or papacy , or roman synagogue have been , and are the antichrist , man of sin , babylon , the whore therein mentioned , have been apt to abhor any thing , sometimes that which is otherwise right , which they conceive to come from rome , or the pope , being terrified with the threatnings , revel . . . , . against those , who worship the beast , and his image , and recieve his mark in their forehead , or in their hand , and warned by the voice from heaven , revel . . . come out of her , my people , that ye be not partakers of her sins , and that ye receive not of her plagues . which having been found by experience , to be a very taking way , especially with the vulgar , and common sort of schollars , who are little versed in antiquity , and know not the true state of the roman church in former ages , nor by what degrees , the corruptions thereof came to that height they are now attained to , it is now a very common course with them , who endeavour to render their opposites , their doctrine , or practise odious , and so to uphold their faction , to fasten on them , by clamour or calumnies , or any other way they can , the name of antichristian , babylon , the mark of the beast , and to perswade men , that what they dislike , is from rome , as being sufficient without any other proof to make them abominable , and to be destroyed . thus in our daies with us some have cried down prelacy , their liturgy , ceremonies , ordination , national church , it 's government , ministry , titles , and whatever belongs thereto as antichristian ; others have done the like to the presbyterial , classical , parochial churches , their ministery , directory , government , maintenence : others have done the same to the congregational , and in general , seekers and quakers , have in a clamorous way like scolds bespattered all that 's opposit to them , with this reproach of antichristian , and at last these fifth-monarchy men have furiously battered civil powers , & all that belongs to them , with the engine of this odious brand of antichristian and babylonish , whereby much irreconcileable hatred , enmity and opposition is raised among christians , to the great dammage of christian protestant churches , and states , and , without the great power and goodness of god , making way for some accommodation of these differences , likely so to weaken and wast us by intestine broiles , that we shall at last become a prey to the common adversary . for my part it was still opposed by me long since when saltmarsh wrote , that i had proved infant-baptism antichristian , i made him alter it , and when a meeting was for union between dissenters , i urged th●s as one thing necessary , that the term antichristian should be forborn , and when richard hubberthorn entituled his book against my serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy , antichristianism reproved , in my epistle to the reader before my supplement i not only shewed the falsehood of his calumny , but also endeavoured briefly to shew the evil of that course of defaming opposites , and their tenents by that title . i deny not but that there is sufficient cause given to protestant divines to charge the present romanists with antichristianism in the arrogant title given to the pope of universal bishop , in the assertion of his supremacy over all churches , his infallibility , in their worship of saints , angels , images , in their doctrines of invocation of saints , humane merits and satisfactions for sin : nor shall i deny but that there may be found some practises , or doctrines among others , which may in a qualified sense be termed antichristian . but to make the protestant churches or their government antichristian in state , and to be separated from , and to be destroyed , when they hold the faith of christ aright , because of some corruptions in points of doctrine , or worship , or discipline , which overthrow not the foundation of christian religion , is intollerable , much more to make civil powers , who reject the roman popes supremacy , and their doctrine and idolatrous worship to be antichristian , from rome , babylon , from an imagined mixture , that is not , or perhaps justifiable , shews either phrensie , or a meer proud arrogant factious and quarrelsome humor in them , not to be born , the title of antichrist being ( as may appear by st. johns words ) to be applyed to seducing teachers , not to civil powers though persecutors , as the roman emperors then were , yet by st. paul termed the ordinance of god. . it is supposed , that then , when the power of rome adulterated from its pure civil state , became a mixt antichristian state , the beast & a whore , a beastly antichristian power , that the dragon , or satan , gave him his power , and his seat and great authority . it is true that it is said , that st. john saw a beast arise out of the sea , having seven heads and ten horns , and upon his horns ten crowns , and upon his heads the name of blasphemy , and that the beast which he saw was like unto a leopard , and his feet were as the feet of a bear , & his mouth as the mouth of a lion : and the dragon gave him his power , and his seat and great authority . which description being like that , whereby the babylonian persian , and greek monarchies are characterized , gives occasion to judge , that the beast mentioned , revel . . . . was to be some future civil empire like to them , and the having seven heads and ten horns , and upon his horns ten crowns , because of the descriptions , daniel . , , . and revel . . . . . argnes , that it was to be the roman empire divided into ten kingdoms ; nor is it to be denied , that satan gave to this beast his power , that is his forces , and his seat , that is , rome , and the dominions belonging to it , & great authority , that is , power to command , whereby the idolatry termed blasphemy , which the christian emperors had cast down , was revived and the persecution that for a time ceased , was renewed : but that this power and seat , and great authority was not given before by the dragon to the civil powers of old rome tho a bloody persecuter , and devourer of the creation , and gods heritage ; is to be denied . for by comparing , revel . . , . with rev. . , . . it may be rather gathered , that satan had given the same power , seat , and great authority to the roman emperors before , as he did to the kings after , though it were exercised in another manner , and upon other pretences . the power and seat , and authority given by the dragon , is not to be meant of civil power to make laws , and to execute them for the well-ordering of common-wealths , and civil states , but the power , force , or authority , which was usurped by nebuchadnezzar , when he set up a golden image to be worshipped , and cast the three jews into the fiery furnance , and this may be gathered from , v. , . and they worshipped the dragon , which gave power unto the beast ; and they worshipped the beast , saying , who is like unto the beast ? who is able to make warr with him ? and there was given unto him a mouth , speaking great things and blasphemies , and power was given unto him , to continue , or to make war forty and two months . whereby may be perceived , that the power and authority given by satan , was to speak great things , and blasphemies , and to make war with the saints . and again of the two horned beast , v. . it is said , that he exerciseth all the power 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the first beast before him , and causeth the earth , and them that dwel therein , to worship the first beast , whose deadly wound was healed ; which cannot be understood of legal power , such as we are required to be subject to , but such wicked and unrighteous power , as is used in requiring adoration of idols , and urging it either by meer force without any law , or by devellish acts , to entice men thereto . which was in the roman heathen emperors from satan , who is said to cast the christians into prison , revel . . . by stirring up the pagan emperors and their subordinate rulers to do it , and yet their civil power , as is confessed , was the ordinance of god. . it is supposed , that then when the powers of the great image , or old rome , became a mixt antichristian estate , and not before , they became the ordinance of hell , to which there is no subjection due . but they do not tell us when this was , nor can tell . and is it not then blind fury , that hurries men to such frantick determinations as to date the relaxation of so plain a precept , as that rom. . . is , from such a time , as they know not when it begins , and to infer thence a warrant for some supposing themselves saints upon no better evidence , than their conceit of gods revelation of this by his spirit from his word , to attempt the smiting of all the powers of the great image civil and ecclesiastical ; whose derivation is from rome ( others not excepted nor freed ) the kingdoms of the romish iron legs , or the roman kingdom divided into the eastern and western monarchies ( wherein the whole dominion , power and monarchy of the ottoman family , or that of the turkes is comprehended ) and the beasts , ten horns or antichrists civil powers ( equivalent to the ten toes ) and also the little horn , together with all powers whatsoever , that shall be found opposers of the lords kingdom , whether they be of the golden babylonish , silver persian , brasen grecian , or iron roman , dan. . and ch . . revel . . comprehending the whole kingdom of antichrist in the civil and ecclesiastical parts thereof made up of persons and things , though they grant that some of these were the ordinance of god , to whom every soul was to be subject , and those only to cease to be , to whom the dragon gives his power , revel . . . which who they are , and when this power was given by the dragon , they are not able to give any assurance of ? . it is supposed , that the civil powers now , even in this nation , are a mixt antichristian state , and that their power is from the dragon , since this mixture , though not before . but with what colour can they make those powers antichristian , who do maintain the faith of christ ? to have their power from rome , who have denied obedience to the bishop of rome ? to be a mixt antichristian state , who cause their subjects to abjure the popes supremacy ? to have their power from the dragon , who do by their lawes & the execution of them , pull down the worship of idols , and punish with death diabolical arts ? quarrels perhaps are against the kings supremacy , over ecclesiastical persons , and in ecclesiastical causes , as if it made a mixt antichristian state , so as that what is denied to the pope , is given to the king : but this objection was so fully answered by dr. john rainold , in his conference with hart the jesuite in the tower , ch . . that hart himself was satisfied , that it was not so . perhaps some others imagin , that in the making of bishops there is an adulterating of the pure civil power , and an antichristian mixture of civil and ecclesiastical power ; but this also is but a mistake , that which is meerly ecclesiastical , therein being left to ecclesiastiques to do . yet , were it granted there were some mixture of civil and ecclesiastical power , that this should make the civil powers antichristian , is without all reason affirmed . were the fathers of the family , or the first-born sons , both rulers oeconomical , and priests to offer sacrifice , melchizedec , a king and a priest , david a king and a prophet , therefore antichristian ? will they count all preachers who are masters , and parents , and husbands by reason of this conjunction of these different functions in their persons therefore antichrian ? are not , or have not there been many of them , who perhaps have been of the fraternity of the quinto-monarchians themselves , who have had commands in the army , and yet have been preachers , yea taken upon them to be elders in the churches , and to have had ordination by laying on of hands , who yet have not been judged by reason of this mixture antichristian ? are not then these men very partial , who condemn that in one , which they do not in another , conniving at , if not approving that in such as favour their party , which they do count , & inveigh against , as a most heinous crime , deserving extermination in them that side not with them ? much more abominable is it , that they should impute that power , by which peace is kept , justice is done , humane society is preserved , to the dragon , and not see it to be from the devil , that they stir up hatred in the world , and practise murthering of innocent men , yea of those who are by god made rulers over them , whom they should obey , assist , and defend . . it is supposed , that the mixture of civil powers by them imagined makes them , who otherwise had been the ordinance of god , to be the ordinance of hell , and their power from the dragon , though promoting idolatry and persecuting christianity by the roman ethnick emperors , did not make void their being the ordinance of god , nor the duty of christians subjection to them . as if the shedding of the blood of the saints , and setting up idols were not more from satan , and more inconsistent with civil powers than an usurpation of an ecclesiastick office , or uzziahs presumption to burn incense : god would not have david build him a temple , because he had shed blood , not because he was , as it is likely , author of fetching the ark to him in a cart ; & he and all israel attended the carrying of it , playing before the lord on all manner of instruments . sure this doctrine smells rank of pharisaism to break the commandments of god for mens traditions , to disanul the duty of subjects to their civil parents , because of some supposed inordinate mixture . yea is not this the very venom of antichristian papal listing up of themselves above all that is called god , not only to excommunicate , and depose emperors for simony ( as the popes termed it ) because they gave bishops investiture into their bishopricks , or for heresy , or favouring hereticks in not destroying them , but also to proclaim war against them , and attempt to kill them by reason of mixture , or not furthering , or opposing their fifth-monarchy ? lastly , these men , by allowing only this smiting work on the civil powers , since their imagined mixture , do evacuate all the rest of their arguments for justifying it , whether from the stones smiting dan. . or taking the kingdom , dan. . or such other , whether just or unjust , accusations , or exclamations against civil powers which they make the reason of their smiting without this , and though the scriptures , make not at all this to be any of the evils in them , or the reasons of gods , or mans hostility against them . to conclude them , though much more might be said against this hellish doctrine of smiting civil powers , it is sufficiently demonstrated , that the suppositions and inferences of fifth-monarchy-men , against the first argument are false and venemous , and the conclusion stands good , their smiting is damnable and antichristan . § . more arguments are urged against quinto-monarchians doctrine , from precepts and examples of holy persons . a second argument against the smiting of civil powers , i draw from those words of st. paul tim. . , , . i exhort therefore , that first of all supplications , prayers , intercessions , and giving of thanks be made for allmen : for kings , & for all that are in authority , or excellency , or eminent place , or sovereign dignity ; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness & honesty . for this is good & acceptable in the sight of god our savior . therefore , it is likely , hath reference to what he had said before . chap. . . because of the prophecies that went before of thee , that by them thou mightest war a good warfare , i charge thee , and exhort thee , and first of all i exhort thee ; being to add other exhortations , or , as we read it , that first of all , that is , as the chief or prime thing of all other ; supplications against evils , prayers for good things , intercessions for others , thanksgivings be made for all men ; all sorts of men , even for kings , or emperors ( who were then persecutors of christians and promoters of idol service ) and all their under-governours , to the intent we may lead a quiet and peacable life free from invasions , robberies , and injuries in all godliness , and honesty , gravity , or seemliness : for this is good and acceptable in the sight of god our saviour . whence may be inferred , . that intercessions are to be made for the worst of kings , even the persecuting emperors of the fourth monarchy , and for all that are in authority , or dignity . . that there should be thanksgivings for them . . that this is good and acceptable in the sight of god or saviour . . that this is a benefit to christians , that they may lead a quiet and peaceable life by means of kings and persons in authority . . that to this christian teachers are to exhort . . that first of all they should do this , or exhort them to do this first of all , or as chiefest of all . whence i argue , that work , and the inciting to it , must needs be damnable and antichristian , which is directly contrary to that , which st. paul exhorts in the first place , or chiefly to be done ; this i should think none should deny , who acknowledgeth st. paul to have been an apostle of christ , and to have known and delivered in this epistle the mind of christ : but the work of smiting civil powers , and the doctrine of quinto-monarchians , inciting thereto by accursing them , stirring up hatred against them , exposing them to disobedience , contempt , opposition of such as are under them , is directly contrary to that , which st. paul exhorts in the first place , or chiefly to be done . which no man that is well in his wits can deny , cursing , stirring up hatred against civil powers , exposing them to disobedience , contempt , opposition of such as are under them , being as directly contrary to praying , and giving thanks for them , as black to white , bitter to sweet , and raising war , and taking up arms , and smiting them being diametrally opposite to leading a quiet and peaceable life under them , or by their means , and counting this to tend to the promoting of christs kingdom , contrary to the apostle who makes it a hinderance of godliness and honesty , and judging that to be the generation work of illuminated , and the most sincere saints , which is contrary to what st. paul saith is good , and to expect , that god should reward , and highly regard men for doing that smiting work , is contrary to what st. paul makes acceptable in the sight of god our saviour . now that doctrine which is thus contrary to st. paul , must needs be damnable and antihristian , and therefore the conclusion followes , that the doctrine of the quinto-monarchians smiting work of civil powers , is damnable and antichristian . i know no exception against this , but what was against the former argument , and is refelled , and therefore i pass on to a third argument . the third argument i shall urge against the doctrine of smiting eivil powers is from the examples of christ , his apostles , the holy martyrs and saints of the first and best ages of the christian church , which should be as a rule to the succeeding . concerning the example of our lord christ it is manifest , that our lord christ was subject to his parents , his mother mary , and his reputed father joseph , luke . . that though he pleaded immunity from paying the didrachms , or shekles translated tribute money , matth. . . yet he paid it , that he might not offend the collectors , or rulers who imployed them , who , whether they were the officers of the romans , or of the high priest ; and the mony paid for the use of the temple , as cameron in his prelection on that scripture argues ; yet it shewes he was voluntarily , though not necessitated , resolved to have regard to rulers of every sort , that he might therein be an example to us of subjection . which is more fully proved by his answer to the high priest adjuring him , matth. . . by his confession before pontius pilate , tim. . . mentioned as imitable by timothy v. . and most of all by his sufferings even unto death , in which the apostle peter epistle . . tells us , that christ also suffered fo us , leaving us an example , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a copy or written description , or impression , that ye should follow his steps , and this is applied as an argument , why they should submit themselves to every ordinance of man for the lords sake ; not meerly out of fear of punishment , but in obedience to christs command , or conformity to his pattern , and these humane ordinances are named to be kings , governours sent by them , masters not only good and gentle , but also froward . whereby it is plain , that our lord christ by his subjection , both active and passive , imposeth on all saints subjection to all sorts of rulers , whether houshold , or ecclesiastical , or civil in the common-wealth , as a necessary duty , and therefore the doctrine of quinto-monarchians teaching it as an incumbent duty , on the most illuminated ( as they fancy it ) saints to disclaim not only ecclesiastical rulers , but also civil powers in order to their smiting work , and also to smite them is damnable and antichristian . nor can here the pretences of their being of the fourth monarchy , from rome , oppressors , idolaters , antichristian , salve the matter , fith those priests of the jewes , and roman governours , to whom christ yeiled subjection , were as bad , and every way as obnoxious to their criminations of the present governours , as any now be . assuredly the present governours in these nations , cannot be charged with such things as pilate , caiaphas , and the rest of those governors , to whom christ was subject , were chargable wth without extream impudence . this argument is further confirmed from the examples of all the holy apostles , martyrs , and confessors in the primative times of christianity . instances might be given in james , peter , paul , who doubtless could as easily have killed their persecutors as ananias , and sapphira , or strucken them blind , as st. paul did elymas the sorcerer , yet submitted themselves to imprisonment , pleaded their cause before roman rulers , appealed to caesar , suffered even to death . in the times following the christians served under the persecuting roman emperors in their wars , and though they were in number many , dispersedover their empire , and had arms in their hands , whereby they might in appearance have been able to have defended themselves against the violence of their persecutors , yet they chose to suffer under the tyrannous emperors , that then were , rather than to rise up against them to revenge themselves , because their christian profession did forbid them , as tertullian , apolog. c. . ad scapulam . c. . cyprian ad demetr . and others plead for them . out of these and other examples , which might be produced , we may argue thus . that doctrine which teacheth men to do contrary to the examples and profession of our lord christ jesus , his apostles , martyrs , confessors , saints in the first and best ages of christianity , is damnable and antichristian . but such is the doctrine of the quinto-monarchians , concerning their smiting of civil powers , as is manifest by comparing them , therefore it is damnable and antichristian . § . more arguments are urged from censures , and determinations in the new testament . a fourth argument i deduce from those places of holy scripture which censure , condemn and denounce woe unto those practises , which the doctrine of the quinto-monarchians incites men to , and they magnify as the fruits of gods spirit . the apostle peter epist. . , , . the lord knowes how to deliver the godly out of temptations , and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment , to be punished . but chiefly them that walk after the flesh , in the lust of uncleanness , and dispise government , or dominion , presumptuous are they , self-willed : they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities : whereas angels , which are greater in power and might , bring not a railing accusation against them before the lord. which is seconded by st. jude v. , , . likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh , despise dominion , and speak evil of dignities . yet michael the arch-angel , when contending with the devil , he disputed about the body of moses , durst not bring against him a railing accusation , but said , the lord rebuke thee . but these speak evil of the things they know not . in which passages those holy apostles rank , the despisers of dominion , those that speak evil of dignities , not among the saints , but amongst the most accursed reprobates ( though those dominions and dignities were as bad as might be , in respect of their personal qualities and actions ) yea the arch-angels example is brought in as not daring to bring against the devil himself , when there was a contention about moses his body , a railing accusation ; but referred it to the lord to rebuke him , teaching thereby , that such terms , as contain threatning , contempt , reproach of governors , and dignities , are altogether unsuteable to saints , and such as they should not dare to utter , though they contended with the devil himself , much less with men , that are in power and authority , much less to smite them , and directing how to deal with them , when they be injurious , to wit , to defer their cause to god for his suppression of them , and threatning wo to the practisers of contempt of dominion , and speaking evil of dignities . all which are contrary to the doctrine of quinto-monarchians , who revile , dispise , threaten them , commend the smiting of them , as the generation work , promise rewards to them that do it . whence i infer that doctrine which animates men to such practises , as are damned by the holy apostles st. peter and st. jude , is damnable and antichristian . but such is the doctrine of quinto-monarchians , concerning their vilifying and smiting civil powers : therefore it is damnable and antichristian . if any object our saviours answer , luk. . . to some pharisees , who said to him , get thee out and depart hence , for herod will kill thee , bidding them , go ye and tell that fox , behold i cast out devils , and i do cures to day and to morrow , and the third day i shall be perfected ; i answer , these words do not at all contain any vilifying of the kingdoms of the fourth beast , or contempt of the kings of the earth : but a reproof of herods evil qualities of craft and crueltie , and a professed resolution of his going on in his work with undanted magnanimity , till the time came of his laying down his life , with a prediction , that it should not be where herod had jurisdiction , but at jerusalem . as for that which we read , isai. . . this is the word of the lord which he hath spoken concerning sennacherib king of assyria , the virgin the daughter of sion hath despised thee , and laughed thee to scorn , the daughter of jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee , it gives no allowance for one of the lamb's followers to express contempt of the kings of the earth ; though they were all of them ( as they are unjustly charged ) the lovers of the mother of harlots , and abominations of the earth ; this being a breach of a plain rule in the new testament , requiring subjection to them , and condemning contempt of them , which is not in a holy triumph of faith , but rather in a proud self magnifying , or factious animosity , not a deriding of their threats , and blasphemous desparaging of god , as was that which the prophet from god fore-told the jews should do to a king , that had no authority over them , but was an hostile invader of them , and by express warrant from god , but a vilifying of the powers that are termed the kingdom of the fourth beast , as opposite to the kingdom , power and glory of jesus christ our lord ; though the apostle peter expressely bid , honour the king , even then when the king was of the fourth beast , as they speak , and opposite to the kingdom , power , and glory of christ jesus . the prophet isaiah never taught the jewes to vilify manasseh his kingdom , or authority , notwithstanding his reprehension of his wickedness , and prediction of his calamity : and in like manner , though preachers called to that office , may in a fit way shew princes their sins , and declare their danger : yet in no sort are they to vilify their authority , or contemn their persons . nor may men pretend the imitation of the holy prophets boldness , unless they can shew their commission , and are endowed with their spirit and power : nor may men , who are but private persons , take upon them to do as christ did when he drove the buyers and sellers out of the temple . which will be more fully proved by a fifth argument taken from some resolutions , or determinations of our lord christ , which condemn such attempts & practises , as the quinto-monarchians doctrine animates to , upon pretence of zeal for christ and his kingdom . luke , . , , . when christ was to go to jerusalem , he sent messengers before his face , and they went and entered into a village of the samaritans to make ready for him . and they did not receive him , because his face was asthough he would go to jerusalem , and when his desciples james and john , saw this , they said , lord wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven , and consume them , even as elias did ? but he turned , and rebuked them and said , ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of . for the son of man is not come to destroy mens lives , but to save them . in which resolution our saviour condemns the motion of james and john , to have fire come down from heaven , to destroy the samaritans , for their not entertaining of christ , in imitation of elias , out of zeal for christ ; because it was not out of the same spirit that elijah had , nor agreeable to the end of christs coming , and his gospel , which were not to destroy mens lives , but save them . now then the doctine of quinto-monarchians , which urgeth their smiting work , which tends to the destroying of mens lives , and not the saving of them , out of a zeal , as they conceive , for christ and his kingdom , though there be no other then a private , or rather an haughty factious spirit in them , is contrary to christs resolution , and therefore indeed damnable and antichristian . nor hath it indeed in christ , or his apostles doctrine , or example any warrant ; but is an imitation of that pernicious use of the later jewes , which was taken up in a perverse imitation of phinehas his act numb . . of elias , kings . . kings . . and some others , out of zeal for their law , without authority , to destroy those things and persons , which they judged contrary thereto , as in the stoning of stephen , act. . st. paul acts , . . &c. in which they were carried furiously , and violently without any legal judicial proceeding , hearing and sentence by authorized judges ; which caused so many seditions , and such outrages , as at last provoked the romans to make a most horrid destruction of that people , and ruin of that state . to which the quinto-monarchians opinon , and practise hath been too like , and , if not stayed , would bring the like effect on church and state with us . the other determination is that of our saviour in the case of peters drawing his sword to rescue christ in the garden from the soldiers , which came to take him , and striking a servant of the high priests and smiting off his ear , which our saviour disallowed , bidding him to put up his sword again into his place : for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword , matth. . . where our lord , who had bid them buy swords , luke , . . a little before , yet forbids the drawing of it , and smiting off the ear of a servant of the high priest , though it were out of zeal for him , it being against an officer by a person without authority declaring the evil consequence , which would follow on such usage of it . now the quinto-monarchians smiting civil powers out of pretended zeal for christs kingdom without any authority in a furious heart of spirit is much more apparently contrary to christs resolution in peters case , and therefore is censured justly to be damnable and antichristian . § . quinto-monarchians doctrine of smiting civil powers urgeth to resisting of evil and self-revenging forbidden by christ and his apostles , and to most horrid murthers , and great confusions . a sixth argument against the doctrine of smiting civil powers , in order to the setting up of the fifth-monarchy , is taken from those texts of scripture , which forbid resisting of evil and avenging our selves . our lord christ. matth. . , . reciting out of the law of moses words interpreted , as allowing retaliation of wrongs with the like , as those who threaten to others , that they will give them as good as they bring , he on the contrary tels his disciples , but i say unto you , resist not evil : but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek , turn to him the other also . which is not to be understood simply and absolutely , as if that turning the cheek were to be done alwayes in the act it self : but in a comparative sense , rather than make a brawl or fight , take further injury signified by the proverbial phrase of turning the check : now if christians be forbidden to fight , when they are injured , to recompense evil for evil , then much more are they forbidden , being private persons , to whom the sword is not commited , of their own accord to begin a war even with superiors , and to proclaim it in order to procuring of good , as the quinto-monarchians doctrine moves saints to . likewise st. paul , rom. . . recompense to no man evil for evil v. . dearly beloved avenge not your selves , but rather give place unto wrath : for it written , vengeance is mine , i will repay it saith the lord , v. . be not overcome of evil , but overcome evil with good . peter , . . not rendering evil for evil , or railing for railing : but contrariwise blessing ; knowing that ye are thereunto called , that ye should inherit a blessing : when david had cut off sauls skirt , his heart smote him , and he said unto his men , the lord forbid that i should do this thing unto my master the lords annointed , to stretch forth mine hand against him , seeing he is the anointed of the lord , sam. . , . the lord judge between me and thee , and the lord avenge me of thee , but mine hand shall not be upon thee . as saith the proverb of the ancients , wickedness proceeedeth from the wicked : but mine hand shall not be upon thee . v. . . and david said to abigail , blessed be the lord god of israel , which sent thee this day to meet me , and blessed be thy advice , and blessed be thou , which hast kept me this day from coming to shed blood , and from avenging my self with mine own hand , sam. . , . which shew , that herein both in the old and new testament holy persons agree , that a king is not to be smitten though in hostility without cause , by any of his subjects , though he were anointed to be king after him , that revenge of injury , oppression or persecution , though it extended to the slaying the lords priests , & to an endeavour to slay the annointed captain of the lords host , is not to be attempted by a private person or subject , but to be referred to the lord. therefore the doctrine of quinto-monarchians , urging subjects and private persons to smite their superior civil powers , and to avenge the supposed injuries and persecutions of saints by their own hands , is contrary to christ's , his apostles , and davids determinations in the holy scriptures , and consequently damnable and antichristian . that which i find alledged for their practise , is in these words , the banner of truth displayed , p. . all the blood of gods people is found in babylon : for they ( i. e. her civil powers revel . . , . ) have shed the blood of the saints and prophets , rev. . . ch . . . and . . jer. . . now therefore god by way of recompence and retalliation , hath ordained , that the saints shall be his instruments by which he will execute his vengeance upon the powers of the world , who are all of them murtherers : accordingly god commands his people ( and 't is their duty to obey ) to reward babylon double as she rewarded them ; yea , and double unto her all those plagues , deaths and stripes , that she hath inflicted on you , revel . . . and they shall give her blood to drink , and she shall be burnt with fire , for strong is the lord that judgeth her . wherein many things are taken as granted which are false , and the whole ( if it were granted ) would be insufficient to acquit them from guilt of opposing christs precepts in that way of recompence and retaliation , which they incite to . . that all the powers of the world are murtherers . which proposition contains such a crimination as god only is fit to charge them with , if it were true , sith he only knows all the powers of the world , and is privy to all their thoughts , designs and actions . . that the civil powers of the world are babylon , or her civil powers . now babylon is termed the great , which shall become the habitation of divels , rev. . . and , i think , it is undoubted with all sorts of writers and intelligent persons , that babylon the great there meant is the same with the woman , rev. . . termed v. . the great whore , upon whose forehead was a name , written , mystery , babylon the great , the mother of hariots , and abominations of the earth v. . which is interpreted v. . and the woman which thou sawest , is that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth . which commonly those who are acquainted with the histories of the times , in which st. john received his revelation , even papists themselves , do take to be rome , known to be the only city which sate on seven mountains as v. . is expressed and reigned then over the kings of the earth . but how all the powers of the world now in being , or the nations of europe , even the protestant should be babylon or her civil powers , or , as elsewhere they say , the streets of that great city , and rome-babylon , is unintelligible to me . rome it self , and that which is called the patrimony of st. peter , and the territories in italy now subject to the pope may be termed babylon , and the civil powers therein may be termed her civil powers , and perhaps all the territories subject to the pope in ecclefiastical affairs may be meant by the streets of the great city mentioned revel . . . because they yield subjection to the roman pope in spirituals . but how the states which do reject the pope's power in temporals , as the king of france , or the duke and senate of venice , who stood out against pope paul the fifth , when he interdicted them , because they would not repeal their laws , or release their prisoners though ecclesiasticks , should be termed the civil powers of rome-babylon is not easie to be understood ; much less , how the kings of england , denmark , sweden and such other protestant states , nations and princes as have rejected the popes jurisdiction and authority , both in civil , and church matters , and impose oaths of disclaiming the popes supremacy in spirituals , and their authority in temporals through their dominions on their subjects , should be nevertheless the civil powers of babylon , and their countries the streets of the great city rome-babylon , is it conceiveable by me . if the predecessors of these did subject themselves to the pope in former ages , yet they are not therefore termed babylon , but kings of the earth who commit fornication with her , and give their power to her ; but neither of these can be said of those princes , though successors to them , who have abandoned the popes errors and corruptions in religion , and his jurisdiction wholly . . it is suggested , that all the blood of gods people is found in babylon : for they ( i. e. her civil powers rev. . , . ) have shed the blood of the saints and prophets , rev. . . ch . . . and . . jer. . . and it is true that jer. . . it is said , put your selves in array against babylon round about ; all ye that bend the bow , shoot at her , spare no arrows , for she hath sinned against the lord. but this is not meant of rome-babylon , nor of her civil powers , but of babylon in chaldaea many thousand miles distant from rome , and long before these daies , or st. johns , wasted . and yet it is not said of that babylon that it shed the blood of the saints and prophets , though i deny not she is charged with the blood of the inhabitants of zion , jerusalem-israel , jer. . . . it is rather charged on jerusalem by christ , that she killed the prophets and stoned them that were sent unto her , that upon her might come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth , from the blood of righteous abel , unto the blood of zacharias son of barachias , whom ye , saith christ , slew between the temple and the altar , matth. . , . . it is said rev. . , , . and the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters and they became blood . and i heard the angel of the waters say , thou art righteous , o lord , which wast , art , and shalt be , because thou hast judged thus : for they have shed the blood of saints and prophets , and thou hast given them blood to drink , for they are worthy . and it is most probable ( though there be that conceive the rivers and fountains of water to have been the cities and provinces of the roman empire under the pagan emperors , and that to them is ascribed the sheding of the blood here mentioned ) that this is meant of the papal empire , sith it is the same which is charged on the woman , revel . . . and babylon rev. . . who must be different from rome pagan , by reason of the things said rev. . , , . concerning the ten kings , which had then received no kingdom , when st. john received this revelation , but should receive power as kings one hour with the beast , &c have one mind , & give their power and strength unto the beast : which could not be understood of the roman pagan emperors , who received not power and strength from kings , but gave power to them so , as that they ruled under them by their power , and therefore is to be interpreted of later times ; which the event shews to be most probable to have been the times , wherein the kings of europe having divided the roman empire into ten kingdoms did yet all of them sooner or later adhere to and support the papal dominion ; which brought in errors , heresies , idolatries and superstitions , which have , and yet do corrupt the western churches , and for maintenance of which a sea of blood hath been shed by the instigations of friers , jesuites and other emissaries of rome . upon these especially brightman , mede , and some others , conceived the third vial to be poured out . but all are so far from making the rivers which shed the blood of the saints and prophets , to whom blood was given to drink to be the civil powers ; that brightman makes the pouring out of this vial to have been begun by q. elizabeth and the parliament . making the reconciling of the english subjects to rome a capital offence , and makes the then lord treasurer william cecil the angel of the rivers , by reason of the book put forth by him termed the english justice , wherein the putting to death of romish emissaries is defended . which is also the opinion of mede , though he add also the memorable overthrow of the spaniard in . the english and the dutch ( whom robert parker conceives resembled by the angel of the waters as seated in a watery country ) by sea and land , abundantly pouring out the cup of the mighty hand of god. but be the civil powers the shedders of the blood rev. . . and . . and . . and . . yet it can with no colour be charged on those civil powers , that have not in obedience to the pope acted this tragedy , but have opposed it , and avenged the blood of the saints by execution of just laws made against the instigators and actors in the shedding of the blood of protestants . i cannot take upon me to absolve the civil powers from the guilt of shedding the blood of saints and prophets , as being ignorant how far any have been actors therein , or connived thereat ; nor do i know what gods way may be of imputing the blood-shedding of saints and martyrs , though by ancestors hundreds of years ago , upon the posterity succeeding . christs sentence against jerusalem , matth. . , . . makes me astonished , and to say as david ps. . . my flesh trembleth for fear of thee , and i am afraid of thy judgments , and with daniel ch . . : to say , o lord to us belongeth confusion of face to our kings , to our princes , and to our fathers , because we sinned against thee ; yet hoping that the princes and people of these nations have been humbled , and are before god at this day for the evils committed by their forefathers under the papacy , i trust i may add with daniel v. . to the lord our god belong mercies and forgivenesses , though we have rebelled against him . sure i am it is a bold presumption which the quinto-monarchians have no warrant for , to charge the blood of martyrs , shed long before their times , on the civil powers of this generation , unless they were privy to some overt act , whereby they have shewed their approbation of it , and their readiness to tread in the same steps . . it is said , that therefore god by way of recompence and retaliation , hath ordained , that the saints shall be his instrument by which he will execute his vengeance upon the powers of teh world , who are all of them murtherers : accordingly god commands his people ( and t is their duty to obey ) to reward babylon double , as she rewarded them ; yea , and double unto her with all those plagues , deaths and stripes , that she hath inflicted on you , revel . . . and they shall give her blood to drink , and she shall be burnt with fire , for strong is the lord that judgeth her . to which i reply . . that all this runs upon a palpable mistake , that the powers of the world , or the civil powers , are the babylon , which is to be rewarded double , rev. . . whereas it is manifest that the babylon to be rewarded double , is that great mighty city . v. . out of which gods people are to come . v. . which is to be utterly burnt with fire ; though the inhabitants are also included , whose sins reached up to heaven . v. . glorified her self . v. . yet the civil powers of the world cannot be meant there , sith it is said . v. . and the kings of the earth , who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her , shall bewail her , and lament for her , when they shall see the smoke of her burning , standing a far off , for the fear of her torments . . it is another mistake as if god had ordained that the saints , or gods people , without any other circumscription should be his instrument , by which he will execute his vengeance upon babylon . for though it be spoken to the people of god , revel . . . to reward babylon as she rewarded them , in the cup she hath filled , fill her double , yet it be said , revel . . . and the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast , these shall hate the whore and shall make her desolate , and naked , and shall eat her flesh , and burn her with fire . for god hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will , and to agree , and give their kingdom unto the beast , until the words of god shall be fulfilled . whence it appears , that it is so far from truth , that the civil powers of the world are babylon , and are to be destroyed in order to babylons downfall , that they are distinct from babylon , so as to stand a far off and lament her some of them , and others are to be instruments of burning her with fire . and therefore although the people of god , which are to come out of babylon , those who are with the lambe , called faithful and chosen , rev. . may be with the kings that burn her , and being escaped out of babylon , may be instrumental to its destruction , being joyned with the kings , yet it doth not appear , that god hath ordained the saints , who are only private men , and no kings , shall do it by themselves , by their own power , but in conjunction with them or subordination to them , and therefore in the executing of vengeance on babylon , there will be execution by the civil powers of the world , not upon them , and saints are bound in order to this smiting work , to maintain civil powers , not to smite them , or separate from them . . though the words , revel . . . be in the imperative mood , yet it doth not thence necessarily follow , that it is gods command to his people , which it is their duty to obey , or else they sin against god , to reward babylon , but it may be understood as a prediction of what should be , not as a command of what ought to be done by them as their duty , as the like expressions , jerem. . . , . . , , , . ( which are imitated rev. . . . revel . . . isai. . . ) are to be expounded , or as a permission allowing a person to do it , as when st. paul saith , cor. . . whatsoever is set before you , eat , asking no question for conscience sake : which doth not injoyn them to eat whatsoever was set before them , so as that , if they did not eat , it would be their sin ; for then they should be required to be gluttons ; but is an indulgence to them , allowing them liberty to eat as a thing not unlawful , but indifferent , which , unless further admonished , they might eat without scruple of conscience . . that it is not a command to the people , who did come out of babylon , nor their act to reward double to babylon , and fill to her double , but a prediction of what shall be done by others , may be gathered in that the reward to them , is to be construed to have been the slaughter of them , and the cup , which babylon filled , was the cup of blood , which she was to drink of , revel . . . now then those persons who were rewarded , to whom this cup was filled by babylon , are such as had been put to death by babylon , and therefore could not reward her double , or fill her double in the cup which she hath filled , unless they were raised from the dead , and consequently could not be the same individuals , who are invited to come out of babylon , revel . . . . upon this consideration it is also probable , that the rewarding , and filling , revel . . . is ascribed to the martyrs killed , because god did it by reason of the cry of their blood , which is intimated by the words , v. . rejoyce over her , thou heaven , and ye holy apostles and prophets , for god hath avenged you on her , and other words , revel . . . do intimate the same . which , if true , is nothing to the smiting work of the quinto-monarchians , by military power turning their plow-shares into swords : but only intimates the efficacy of the blood of martys to bring divine vengeance on babylon . . but were it granted ; that the people of god invited to come out of babylon , revel . . . were the same numerical persons , who are commanded to reward babylon double , and to fill her double in the cup , which she hath filled , and they are to do this by smiting with the sword ; yet this is nothing to the fifth-monarchy-men in england , unless they should be in babylon at that time , when gods people should come out of her , and did so come out of her . and therefore there is no command , revel . . . for them to smite till then , but they are to put up their sword into the sheath , and to lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty under their governors , else they will be guilty of resisting and self-revenging condemned by christ and his apostles , which was to be proved . § . quinto-monarchians doctrine tends to murder , and ruine of humane society . hence also a seventh argument is deduced , that the smiting work , to which the doctrine of quinto-monarchians incites , is wilful murder , yea the most horrible murder that ever was , except his , who was a murderer from the beginning , john . . or theirs , who crucified the lord of glory ; for it incites to a professed smiting , and spoyling of all the civil powers on earth , even those to whom they are bound to be subject by all lawes of religion , nature , country , and reason , and to act these things with all extremity , out of imagined zeal for christ , which if it be not according to knowledge , is a fire of hell , which will hardly be ever quenched , and in prosecution thereof to smite those who resist them , which must of necessity be all those who adhere to civil powers , who will be doubtless the most conscientious saints on earth , and the greatest part of mankind , which must needs be wilful murder and robbery , if they have no warrant to do it . but they have none ; neither , revel . . . nor any other scripture , or revelation of god , that we or they do know , nor lawes of nature , or men do in the least warrant , or permit it , but all condemn it . and therefore if they should be permitted to act their design ( which god forbid ) there would be more destruction and wasting , than ever yet was made by men since the world began , and more truly they might be termed babylon , in whom the blood of the saints is found , than any civil powers yet extant ; now murder-makes persons the children of the divil , there being no sin more resembling him , john . . whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer ; and ye know ( saith st. john , epist. ch . . . ) that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him , therefore such are no saints , but antichristian , and the doctrine moving to it is damnable and antichristan . to which i shall add an eighth argument taken from the direful effects , to which the quinto-monarchians doctrine of overturning and smiting civil powers and lawes tends , which are all the miseries which anarchy and confusion brings on the world , even to the destruction of the church of christ on earth , or rather according to the project they propound , humane society , if not the extirpation of mankind . for by taking away civil powers , safety of persons , and all comforts of life are either taken away or much endangered . when the prophet isaiah threatned calamity to the people of the jewes , isai. . , , , , . he tels them , the lord , the lord of hosts doth take away the mighty man , and the man of war , the judge , and the prophet , and the prudent , and the ancient , the captain of fifty , and the honourable man , and the counsellor , and the cunning artificer , and the eloquent orator , and i will give children to be their princes , and babes shall rule over them , and the people shall be oppressed , every one by another , and every one by his neighbour : the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient , and the base against the honourable . whereby it may be perceived that god took it to be a curse next after the taking away the stay , and the staff , the whole stay of bread , and the whole stay of water to take from the jewes their rulers , teachers , nobles , scholars , and therefore there cannot be a greater calamity to a people , after the destruction of the fruits of the earth , whereby famine comes than to smite time their civil powers , and eminent persons , who have been the protectors , and guides of the people . for then people become murderers and robbers one of another , and all places are filled with fears , dangers , cries , and miseries of all sorts . the evils we have felt in our own civil wars , shew what misery it is to have soldiers rule , and not princes and judges . and yet the evils we have seen are small , in comparison of what the jewes felt by the factions there , when jerusalem was besieged by titus ; but the evils , which would come on the world by the insurrection of the quinto-monarchians , if their project did take place , would far exceed them , their design being an universal destruction of them that oppose them in all the world , and when the conscience is perverted , there being no stay to mens furious zeal . if any say , that they would only smite oppressors of the saints , i reply , by their own rules they are bound to , separate from those churches which are select and more pure , as being seemingly refined , which are the gathered in pastoral way ( reducing things to primitive practise ) so far as they are corrupted and adulterated , and found opposers of the kingly office of jesus christ , in and over the whole world , and more especial in the administration of this part or dispensation of that kingdom , to wit , that of the stone , or war against his enimies ( for even in this generation there be a sort of people , and those we hope godly , that do acknowledge & wait in the expectation of the later , yea and hold forth the personal appearance of our lord as king , yet nevertheless oppose , and deny , and quite leap over this stone and its work , thereby endeavouring to render the saints useless and uncapable of destroying babylon ) which must make way , and without which we cannot attain to the peaceable , and more glorious administration of this kingdom , by removing those mountains , hills , and powers of darkness , which do oppose and hinder it . banner displayed p. . there are no churches , ( or at leastwise very few ) of the pastoral way in these nations , or elsewhere , but have something of antichrist in them , having forsaken and apostatized from the primitive and first love , and have , and do in many principle : and practises , strike hands with the interest of antichrist , and mystery of iniquity , thes. . , . p. . we accompt it a duty for the saints to separate from all the forms , practises , doctrines , and spirit of the antichrist in the world , in their brethren , in the churches , &c. and to be plain , we accompt him , and that spirit which either in act or deed wilfully and obstinately denies the smiting work of our lords kingdom antichristian ; inasmuch as that such would alwaies have christ , his saints , his cause , in , and on the earth a sufferer : but the scripture clearly manifests the contrary , p. , . now then , if men be they never so holy , as they hope a sort of people be who oppose , deny , and quite leap over the stone and its smiting ; ( as they confess there are no churches , or very few of the pastoral way in these nations and elsewhere , but have opposed them ) yet are antichristian , they by their principles are to smite them , and so must oppress saints as well as others . and if any saints be civil powers , ecclesiastical rulers , governors in corporations , graduates in universities , pastors in churches , ( as no doubt thousands are who love the lord jesus , and wait for his appearing and kingdom ) yet these must be smitten too . and who can secure in such confusions as would arise upon the quinto-monarchians smiting work , any man , yea of their own party , from violence , and slaughter , when there is nothing but rage in private persons , whose proceedings are in heat of mad zeal , without any distinction by legal trial and just judgment , or certain rule ? sure no tyrants have ever done more mischief than this way of the fifth-monarchy-men would do , if it were prosecuted , nor is any doctrine more hellish , antichristian and damnable than this , that tends to overthrow all the civil powers , lawes , doctrines , forms , degrees , offices in church and state , which these term the spirit of antichrist in the world . and if it were supposed , that these furious zelots should accomplish their design , after the mixture of hypocrites , and the rabble of the worst , & most foolish men , who could hope there would be any peace , good order or justice in the world , or any remainder of sober men ? the world would be an acheldama , or field of blood ( which they impute to the nations of europe , even the protestant ) and the prevailing persons ( to use their own phrase ) blood-monsters , and instead of a visible kingdom of christ in the earth a solitude , chaos , tohu vebohu , as was afore the first creation , and the kingdom of antichrist , or the devil would be set up under pretence of making christs enemies his footstool . what lawes , order , or rule , tending to further religion , or righteousness , can any expect from men of such cauterized consciences as not to discern the mischievousness of such doctrine and practises as these have vented , especially after they have inured themselves to shedding of blood and rapine with extremity ? § . the th and th arguments against the smiting work of quinto-monarchians from the meekness , peaceableness , and patience of saints . to these arguments , which have been confirmed , i shall add a ninth taken from the opposition of spirit and practise , which their doctrine begets to the precepts of meekness and peaceablness , which the gospel requires of christians , and to which it assigns blessedness . our lord christ in his sermon on the mount , matth. . . saith , blessed are the meek : for they shall inherit the earth . v. . blessed are the peace-makers : for they shall be called the children of god. v. . he forbids rash anger , contemptuous speech and opprobrious language . v. , , . requires speedy endeavours of reconciliation with adversaries ; nor is it any thing against this precept of christ that he tels us , luke , . . . i am come to send fire on the earth , and what will i , if it be already kindled ? suppose ye that i am come to give peace on earth ? i tell you , nay ; but rather division . for these expressions do not shew his approbation of division , but his foresight of it , not as a thing which he affected , or as a thing desirable of it self , or which he studied to promote , but as a thing which he knew was unavoidable in the event , that while he endeavoured to promote the truth of the gospel by accident divisions would follow , not from his doctrine , which was the gospel of peace , but through the perversness of mens spirits , who would oppose it . but that it was the will of christ , that all christian saints should be meek , and peaceable appears from the many precepts injoyning them in the apostles writings , rom. . . if it be possible as much as lieth in you live peaceably with all men , rom. . . for the kingdom of god is not meat and drink , but righteousness and peace , and joy in the holy ghost . v. . let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace . gal. . , . the workes of the flesh are hatred , enmities , variance , wrath , strise , seditions , divisions or factions . v. . . the fruit of the spirit is love , joy , peace , meekness . heb. . . follow peace with all men . james . . the wisdom that is from above is first pure , then peaceable . v. . and the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace . pet. . , . he that will love life and see good daies , let him seek peace and ensue it . from hence i argue , that doctrine is damnable and antichristian , which is opposire to christs , and his apostles commands , approbation , and beatification concerning meekness and peaceableness : but such is the doctrine of the quinto-monarchians , which stirs up enmities and hostility among men , teacheth separations from men , even such as they hope are godly , from churches , gathered in a pastoral way , reducing things to primitive practise ; and breaths out nothing but wars , and smiting of all that denie or oppose their smiting work , which are as contrary to meekness and peaceableness , as hot to cold , black to white . therefore their doctrine is damnable and antichristian . nor can they be acquitted by alleging such texts as , psal. . , . and . . amos. . . hab. . , , . revel . . . unless they can shew all civil powers extant , and those , whom they hope to be godly , churches gathered in a pastoral way reducing things to primitive practise , yet count enemies to christs kingdom , because they oppose that which these call the smiting work of the stone , to be indeed haters of god , and babylon , and also that these are the stone , or the ten horns that are to hate the whore , and make her desolate . till this be done ( which i expect to be done at later lammas ) we may say as christ did , ye know not what spirit ye are of : or rather determin , that they are indeed of an antichristian , or diabolical spirit . for a further inforcing of this argument i shall adjoyn a tenth , taken from those many texts of scripture , especially in the new testament , which both require patience in the saints , and assigne blessedness to it , and make suffering the portion of the saints , and necessary to their entrance into the kingdom of god , & that to continue till christs coming , matth. . , , . blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake : for theirs is the kingdom of heaven . blessed are ye when men shall revile you , and persecute you , and shall say all manner of evil against you falsly for my sake , rejoyce and be exceeding glad : for great is your reward in heaven , luke . . in your patience possess your souls , acts . . paul and barnabas confirmed the souls of the disciples , and exhorted them to continue in the faith , and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of god. thes. . , . so that we our selves glory in you in the churches of god for your patience and faith in all your persecutions , and tribulations that ye endure , which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of god , that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of god , for which ye also suffer . tim. . . yea and all that will live godly in christ jesus shall suffer persecution . heb. . . whom the lord loveth he chasteneth , and scourgeth every son whom he receives james . . . let patience have her perfect work , that ye may be perfect and entire , wanting nothing . james . . . be patient therefore , brethren , unto the coming of the lord. hence i argue , those who teach smiting , when christ and his apostles teach patience , those who count them antichristian , who would have christ , his saints , his cause in and on the earth a sufferer , though christ , and his apostles call it christian to suffer , and require patience until the coming of the lord , these teach doctrine , which is indeed damnable and antichristian . but so do the quinto-monarchians , as may be seen before sest . . therefore the doctrine of their smiting work is damnable and antichristian . § . the eleventh and twelfth arguments from contrariety to the martyrs agreement with papists . this also leads us to an eleventh argument , which is from the constant profession of the saints and martyrs , in all ages , that they were to suffer for the kingdom of god , not to fight for it , so speaks st. john , revel . . . i john who also am your brother , and companion in tribulation , and in the kingdom and patience of jesus christ , was in the isle that is called patmos , for the word of god , and for the testimony of jesus christ. where he makes these conjunct the kingdom and patience of jesus christ , and styles himself their brother and companion in tribulation and in the kingdom and patience of jesus christ , therefore he took all that were brethren to be companions therein , and these to be conjoyned together . this was the profession of the saints , in the times of the ten great persecutions , as may be seen in the writings of justin martyr , tertullian , cyprian , and such as wrote apologies for the christians , and the acts and monuments of the church ; which relate their practise suteable to their profession ; even when they were armed , and were a considerable part of the emperors armies , yet exposed themselves rather to butchery , than they would attempt to fight . yea when the beast was risen , to whom the dragon gave his power , and his seat and great authority , from which time , as is shewed before . sect. . the quinto-monarchians make civil powers not to be the ordinance of god , but antichristian , and the ordinance of hell ; yet the holy ghost foretels not the smiting work of the stone , or turning their plow-shares into swords , for the pulling down civil powers , and setting up the fifth kingdom on earth , but saith , revel . . he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. here is the patience , and the faith of the saints . which shewes that even they were not to set up the kingdom of christ by fighting , but by patience and faith . and revel . . . after the prediction of the fall of babylon , and the daughter of those who worship the beast and his image , and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name , it is added , here is the patience of the saints : here are they that keep the commandments of god , & the faith of j●sus , shewing that even in those times the saints would patiently suffer , not avenge themselves by smiting , or by destroying civil powers seek to set up christs kingdom on earth , the contrary whereto is taught by the quinto-monarchians , and thereby the generation of the just even the holy martyrs their profession and practise , is condemned , which is damnable and antichristian . on the other side ( which yeilds a twelfth argument ) these ●enents of the smiting of civil powers to set up christs kingdom tend to the justifying , or countenancing of the popish , former and later doctrine and practises , wherein they have challenged and usurped a power over emperors , and kings , to depose , and deprive them of life , when they have opposed the popes authority , or the roman church and religion , which opposition was counted by them to be against the kingdom of christ , and thought in ordine ad spiritualia , as they spake , they might dispose of their kingdoms as the vicars of christ , and visible monarchs of the universal church . which things these fifth-monarchy-men count antichristian ; and therefore their teaching and doing the like upon pretence of setting up of christs kingdom on earth , is by parity of reason , there being not better proof for the one than for the other , damnable and antichristian . § . the smiting work of quinto-monarchians is grounded on falsities , or uncertainties concerning the agents , means and time of smiting mentioned , dan ▪ . . , . hitherto i have prosecuted those arguments against the quinto-monarchians doctrine and practise which shew it to be damnable and antichristian in respect of the act it self of smiting civil powers ; i shall add further more arguments against them , shewing the falsity and uncertainty of those grounds and principles , on which their determinations concerning separation from & smiting of civil powers rest . the first whereof is , that afore the fifth-monarchy be set up , and in order thereto , afore christs coming all civil powers , that are now extant as part of the fourth monarchy , are to be disannulled . which hath no foundation but in their own fancy , or hatred of the civil powers as withstanding their design . for it is said , revel . . , . that the kings , which formerly supported babylon shall hate the whore , and shall make her desolate and naked , and shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire . for god hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will , and to agree , and give their kingdom unto the beast , until the words of god be fulfilled , and revel . . . it is said , that the kings of the earth , who have committed fornication , and lived deliciously with her , shall be wail her and lament for her , when they shall see the smoke of her burning : which shewes , that kings , even those that have joyned with babylon , shall remain after her fall , yea and some kings shall be the instruments of her destruction . and the apostle cor. . . tells us , then cometh the end , when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to god , even the father ; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power . which words plainly intimate that afore the end , when christ shall deliver up the kingdom to god even the father , all rule and authority and power shall not be put down . which may be also gathered from revel . . . where it is said , and the seventh angel sounded , and there were great voices in heaven saying , the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of the lord and of his christ , and he shall reign for ever and ever , which is said v. . to be the time of the dead that they should be judged ; and therefore till that time there shall be the kingdoms of this world , and consequently civil powers . a second is , that civil powers are to be dissolved by men . whereas this is still asserted in scripture as gods prerogative , that the most high ruleth in the kingdom of men , and giveth it to whomsoever he will , dan. . . . , . and . . and even in the business of the fourth monarchy , the stone that is said to smite the image upon his feet , is said to be cut out of the mountain without hands , dan. . . . which is more likely to be meant of christ , who was cut without hands out of the mountain , that is , without natural generation as other men , whether by the mountain be meant eternity , or heaven , or the roman empire , or the universe of human kind , as i conceive , then of any other man or men . and if it be meant of the kingdom , as v. . doth expound it , that it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms , it must be meant in respect of christ the king , whose dominion is set up by the god of heaven , and not by men , and therefore take it any way agreeable to the text , the stones breaking in pieces and consuming all the kingdoms must not be expounded of subjects , now calling themselves saints , destroying civil powers , to which they are subject . a third is , that men shall dissolve civil powers by fighting with swords , which is very false : for the stone that smote the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth ; which if it be understood of christs spiritual kingdom , it smote the image by preaching the gospel , by which the power of the idols , who ruled in those kingdoms , was cast down , and by it the stone became a great mountain and filled the whole earth ; if it be meant of smiting hereafter , it is to be , as thes. . . it is said , that wicked one the lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth , and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming ; or if it be meant of the saints , as mr. thomas parker conceives , they are thus cut out by professed separation and victorious exemption without hands , that is , by the only power and finger of almighty god , as it is interpretted , dan. . v. , . thus , saith he in his exposition of that vision , they began to be cut out anno in the waldenses , and continue so unto this day . and the extraordinary hand of god was seen therein , as the strange arising , growth , prevailing of them doth manifestly declare . but their absolute cutting out an exemption from the power of antichrist , is that which is to be expected at the term of the slaughter of the two prophets : when their rising by the power alone of god almighty , without the help of man is thus described , revel . . . and after three daies and an half , the spirit of life from god entered into them , and they stood upon their feet ; and great fear fell upon them that saw them : & they ascended up to heaven in a cloud , and their enemies beheld them . and the same hour was there a great earth-quake , and the tenth part of the city fell , and in the earth-quake were slain of men , or names of men ( as in the greek expounded by mr. mede , men of name ) seven thousand , presently after which it followes , the kingdoms of the world , are become the kingdoms of the lord and his christ. now be the earth-quake , as mr. mede thinks , a great commotion of the nations , and alteration of politique affairs , or some thing else , it is caused by gods power either without man , or only by the witnesses and their testimony , and if the falling , and slaughter thereby be in whole , or in part , the smiting of the stone , dan. . . , . ( as it is probable ) it is not by fighting , sure not by such as overthrowes civil powers ; for they shall be altered and be instrumental to destroy babylon , revel . . , . and therefore this ( which is the hinge on which the smiting work of quinto-monarchians turns ) being very uncertain , or rather very false , all their inferences thereupon must of necessity be groundless and unwarrantable . a fourth is , that the smiting work ascribed to the stone , shall be by the saints , even those who are private persons , and that the civil powers shall be smitten by them , to which they are subject , but for this they having nothing but an obscure prophecy to rely upon , and it not agreeing with plain precepts , which forbid resistence to the higher powers that are , this their impious collection is deservedly to be exploded and detested . a fifth is , that this smiting work shall be done by the saints afore christs coming , and in preparation thereto . but this agrees not with the apostles words cor. . . where it is made christs work to put down all rule , and all authority and power , which will not be till the end , and then christ , or his father shall put all his enemies under his feet , which cannot be the work of the saints . for one of the enemies is death v. . which none in his wits will say can be destroyed by quinto-monarchian saints ; they perhaps may bring death on themselves and others , but sure they cannot destroy death , who cannot raise from the dead . besides the scripture makes the coming of christ and his kingdom comtemporary . tim. . . therefore not to be effected by the saints on earth , by any preparatory work of theirs . a sixth uncertainty or falsehood , which moves them to so much zeal for their smiting work , is , that they have fancied it to be the work of the present generation , which mr. tillinghast much insists on in his sermon on matth. . . concerning the signs of the times ; but upon how slender reasons may be shewed in what followes : sure when our lord christ made the time of his coming unknown to angels and the son of man , and known only to the father , mark . . he would have us not be curious to know it , but watch , that we be not surprised by it . and sith after all the labours of the learnedst and most prying inquisitors all the prophetical numbers about this thing of the ruin of babylon , and christs personal kingdom on earth have been so uncertainly calculated , that mens expectations have been deluded , it is great rashness for any to pitch on a certain year or age , much more to attempt such audacious and horrid things , as the smiting of civil powers in a preposterous way which attempt of theirs becomes the more inexcusable , in that their own writing entituled , the banner of truth displayed , shewed their uncertainty , and unresolvedness both in the manner , extent and time of this smiting work . for whereas they apply that of dan. . , . , . concerning the stones smiting of the great image so that the iron , the clay , the brass , the silver , and the gold was broken to pieces together , and became like the chaff of the sommer threshing-floors , and the wind carried them away , that no place was found for them : unto the saints , even gentile saints smiting of all parts of the fourth monarchy , all the civil powers of europe , which they count roman , babylon , and antichristian , yet p. , . they make the conversion of the ten horns , rev. . , . to be one gradation of the stones growth , which although they would not have to be the present powers of the ten horns , nor yet multitudes of people in the ten horns , but some out of all the ten horns , whom the lord will have mercy on , shall be chosen by christ , in which respect it is said the ten horns ; yet they admit that the powers of the ten horns ( which the text expresly v. . . terms ten kings , which had received then no kingdom , but receive power as kings one hour with the beast , who have one mind , and shall give their power and strength unto the beast , and are according to them part of the fourth monarchy to be utterly destroyed ) shall be subdued by the saints ; and as now they are antichristian , and fight for the beast against the lamb , so shall they become christians , and fighters for the lamb against the beast , which is utterly inconsistent with the being broken in pieces together by the stones smiting , so as to become like the chaff of the sommer threshing-floor , and the wind carry them away , that no place be found for them , if the stones smiting them be their subduing by the saints . and for the time of the beginning of their smiting work , which p. . they make the ending time of the mystical numbers spoken of by daniel and john for the accomplishment of those great things which god hath declared by the mouth of all his holy prophets to be brought to pass in these later daies , dan. . . rev. . , . . . and . . which they make a great argument and quickning motive to the saints to look about them , and for the stone to arise and smite the compleated image , and break in pieces the iron teeth of the ravenous beast , that so deliverance may be brought , they grant , this thing which they lay down as a call to the stone is doubtful to most , and p. . tell us , that in this particular their judgment and opinion do most accord with mr. tillinghast his calculation , according to which those things named & spoken of to come to pass at the end of those numbers , would in all likelyhood have their accomplishment together with the said numbers the year of christ . but the event disproving it , they will not engage further therein , but set down other signs , which are signs only from themselves , and not from any divine revelation , and yet p. . conclude , this present generation in which we live is the ending time of those mystical numbers forementioned , & the expiring time of antichrist , wherein god will begin to put a period to the beasts tyranny and powers : and therefore cannot but assert , that the consideration of these things is a great call and motive to the stone to arise , and be doing , which work we call the fifth kingdom in its first dispenspensation , preparing way for the second and more glorious dispensation ; but after mentioning the compleat and effectual call that the stone shall have to be a clear light into that time it shall smite , and into the work of that time , together with power from on high , whereby it shall be emboldened and fitted to smite as aforesaid ; and also a fit and leading providence or opportunity preparing way for its breaking forth , with these golden characters of power , wisdom and glory : and then adding some examples of gods former providence , they say , let the stone wait for the accomplishment of these particulars afore it smite , & add their humble conceit , & then mind those who at present are the gainsayers and imbittered opposers ( of this work , and yet hope and believe they are godly ) of this their faith and hope , lest they split themselves upon this stone , becoming their rock of offence , and so their bodies and lives perish upon such an account in this day of common calamity that hasteth upon the whole world . by which may be perceived their uncertainties in that , which they call their faith and hope , wherein those whom they believe to be godly oppose them , and their violence of spirit beyond all sobriety in moving persons so earnestly to that smiting work in this age upon no better grounds than their own conjecture , though they foresaw it would bring common calamity , and the bodies and lives of godly persons perish by reason of their opposition to this stone , which shewes they were resolved to smite all that stood in their way though godly , as it fell out in the year . mr. tillinghast in his first sermon p. . saith , the work of christs kingdom , the glorious beginning of it , shall be about the time of the jewes coming in , and p. . saith , the lord make us wait on him for his own time , and yet , serm. . gives signes of its being near even in this generation , which he makes it the duty of saints to observe , though not one of the signes is from any revelation of god , but from things which may happen and have without such signification , as he would put upon them . i omit what mr. mede in his letter to arch-bish●p usher , and in other writings and many others write of the mystical numbers in daniel and in the revelation , which i would not have slighted so as to give no heed to them , it being not in vain , that the holy ghost hath delivered them to us : only this i conceive it very dangerous and unsafe to make them the warrant or motive to such an attempt , as the smiting of civil powers , or the beginning of any war against the known rules of scripture and lawes of civil government , it being in it self wicked , shewing bitter furious zeal without the wisedome from above , and likely hereafter , as it hath done formerly to others , to bring destruction of soul and body on the agents , and much misery on others whether opponents or neuters . § . many things are groundless and false , which the quinto-monarchians suppose and take as articles of their faith concerning the fifth-monarchy , and its setting up . to the uncertainties and falsities about the smiting work of the stone , whereby the evil of their attempt is demonstrated , i shall next add the uncertainties or falsities of those things , which th●y make as articles of their faith about the stones , becoming a mountain , and filling the whole earth . where . . they shew their inadvertency in making gentile saints , who are but subjects , the stone meant dan. . , . excluding the jewes from being the stone in the beginning ; whereas the stone is expresly termed the kingdom , which shall stand for ever v. , . which cannot be understood of the saints , who are subject , they are not the kingdom , nor do they stand for ever ; though they receive a kingdom that cannot be shaken , heb. . . but the stone is christ the king , and his dominion , which must fill the whole earth with subjects , lawes and administrations of rule and justice , which cannot be said of the saints gentile or jewish . which inadvertency causeth them to speak confusedly p. , . and throughout their book termed the baaner of truth displayed , sometimes terming the stone christ , sometimes his kingdom , sometime the gentile saints sometimes the jewes joyned to the gentiles . now the same stone which smites the great image becomes a great mountain and fils the whole earth ; but this is not true of the gentile saints , or jew and gentile joyned together , they become not a great mountain , nor fill the whole earth , therefore they smite not the image . . that the stone , or fifth kingdom is an outward visible kingdom , not the spiritual kingdom , which was begun by christ in the days of his flesh is much insisted on , as the chief ground of their faith and hope in this matter . but in the banner of truth displayed p. . in answer to the question what this stone is ? they say , this stone is called in scripture the kingdom of christ , and the kingdom of christ this stone , dan. . , . matth. . , . which , they say , hath a twofold dispensation , i. e. . an internal dispensation , or the inward kingdom , which is the kingdom of christ in the hearts of his saints , and in and over his church . . an external dispensation , . of war , in subduing and conquering his stubborn enemies and opposers in the world , whereby they shall be compelled to yield , and shall become subjects though kings and princes . . of peace upon the earth , in and over the whole world ; which is the new creation and restitution of all things , where will be perfection & no sin ; among the saints immortality , & no mortal nor corruptible thing , where death shall have no sting , nor grave victory ; but all shall be swallowed up in christs fulness , which is victory . and for this they cite many scriptures in the margin . now . i grant that the stone , dan. . , . is the kingdom of christ or of god , mat. . , . . the distinction of the internal & external kingdom is not denied . . nor do i oppose the double dispensation of this kingdom . . nor do i deny the description of either dispensation . but . hence i infer , that the stone , dan. . , . notes the internal kingdom , or the dominion christ had by the preaching of the gospel , termed the gospel of the kingdom , matth. . . meant matth. . , . for . that kingdom is meant there , and no other , which was to be taken from the jews , but that could be no other than the internal kingdom , for no other kingdom was then among them but it , therefore no other is there meant . . that kingdom was there meant which was to be given to another nation , meaning the gentiles , but that was no other but the internal . . that kingdom is there meant , whose fruits were to be brought forth by the nation , to whom it was to be given : now the fruits of the kingdom are expressed to be righteousness , peace and joy in the holy ghost , rom. . . which belong to the internal kingdom , and therefore no other there meant . which thing is also confirmed by other passages of scripture , as namely that of our saviour , luk. . . when he was demanded when the kingdom of god should come , he answered them and said , the kingdom of god cometh not with observation , or with outward shew , therefore the kingdom of god meant in the gospel , is not the outward visible kingdom , which the quinto-monarchians expect , which is also proved from v. . where it is added , neither shall they say lo here , or lo there : for behold , the kingdom of god is within you or among you , which could be no other than the kingdom set up by the preaching of the gospel . to which is to be added christs good confession before pontius pilate , john . . kingdom is not of this world : if my kingdom were of this world , then would my servants fight that i should not be delivered to the jews : but now is my kingdom not from hence . wherein our lord christ declares his kingdom foretold by the prophets , not to be of this world , that is an earthly kingdom , but a heavenly , which is opposed to that which is of this world , john . . the same thing might be gathered from the speeches of christ , john baptist , and the apostles in many places , especially the parables of christ , which shew that by the kingdom of god , or of heaven , is meant that dominion christ hath over his church by his word and spirit , which being the same with the stone , dan. . . . it follows that it began in christs daies on earth , and that the smiting and filling the whole earth by the stone was effected by the preaching of the gospel , which prevails against the power of darkness , and brings into the kingdom of the son of gods love , col. . . which i say not to exclude the kingdom of christ by such external discipline or rule as is meant cor. . . when the apostle saith , for the kingdom of god is not in word , but in power ; but to shew what kind of kingdom is meant , dan. . . . by the stone , which , i may truly say , is become a stone of stumbling and rock of offence to the quinto-monarchians , instead of the corner st●ne of the kingdom of christ , on which they might be built to salvation . . i add , that christ doth smite his enemies by the material sword and by war , and that there is such an external dispensation of it , in respect of which some passages , which in the new testament , speak of the coming of his kingdom in power are to be understood , as when he miserably destroyed those wicked men which slew the son of god and cast him out of the vineyard , which is expressed by the stones grinding to powder or dashing to pieces matth. . . . which to be meant of the jews , and their destruction by the romans appears from luke . . , . matth. . . the like is to be said of christs kingdom in destroying the persecuting emperors and roman empire by the sword of their own soldiers , and chiefly by constantine the great his victories over maxentius and licinius , to whose time that is applyed by mr. mede which we read revel . . , . and i heard a loud voice saying in heaven , now is come salvation and strength and the kingdom of our god , and the power of his christ. and the like is to be conceived at the making the whore desolate , rev. . . it is not denied , that this shall be by war , but none of these wars were or are to be managed by saints as saints , of private persons subjects to other lords . the saints overcame the dragon , rev. . . not by war , but by the blood of the lamb , and by the word of their testimony , and they loved not their lives unto the death . it is said rev. . . that the ten kings shall make war with the lamb , which is most likely to be meant of their persecuting the lamb's followers unto the death , and the lamb shall overcome them , for he is lord of lords , and king of kings , and therefore hath all power in his hands of angels and men to execute his purpose , and they that are with him are called and chosen and faithful , as appears by their adhering to the lamb unto the death , rev. . . by which they are conquerors , and are crowned : no where are they said to overcome by fighting with the sword . as for the rewarding double by gods people to babylon , rev. . . it is answered before sect. . . the description made of the external dispensation of the kingdom in peace may be allowed : but then it will not agree to the thousand years reign mentioned , rev. . . for in that time there shall not be such a reign over the whole world , as that there shall be no enemies , nor sin ; if so , how should satan , when he is loosed out of prison at the expiration of the thousand years , deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth , gog and magog , to gather them to battel : the number of whom is as the sand of the sea , and they go up on the breadth of the earth , and compass the camp of the saints about , and the beloved city , and then fire comes down from god out of heaven and devours them , rev. . , , ? sure these things shew , that in the thousand years reign the kingdom of christ shall not be so universal and entire , but that in the four quarters of the earth , the indians in the east , the tarters in the north , the americans in the west , and the moors in the south shall remain a wicked people , and at last be raised up by the divel to destroy the people of god ( which it is likely shall have a reign on the earth a thousand years , when the jews shall be converted , and the turkish tyranny , and papal cruelty and delusions shall cease by such waies as divine providence shall order ) and then by divine vengeance from heaven shall be destroyed . but for the external dispensation of the kingdom of god in peace as they describe it , it can agree to no time , but the universal resurrection , and last judgment ; in which alone is nothing mortal , no ▪ sin , which follows after the thousand years reign and gogs and magogs destruction , rev. . , , , , . . the quinto-monarchians suppose , that towards the end of the fourth monarchy , the stone , that is christ in the gentile saints shall smite the iron legs & toes of the roman empire , & then begin the fifth monarchy , which after the smiting of them , the saints shall take , and so be universal monarchs , or have the universal kingdom , which shall stand for ever . now they are quite mistaken in the time and means of the stones smiting and the saints taking the kingdom . for the smiting was to begin , as mr. mede observes in his discourse on mark. . , . in the daies of christ on earth , when the fourth monarchy was at the heighth , not in its declining : for the stone , that is the fifth kingdom , was begun in the daies of these kings , that is the last of them , not after them , and that our saviour plainly declares , when , after that john was put in prison , he came into galilee preaching the gospel of the kingdom of god and saying , the time is fulfilled and the kingdom of god is at hand ; repent ye and believe the gospel . in which words our saviour declaring the time to be fulfilled , and the kingdom of god to be approaching plainly shewes , that then was the time of which daniel said ch . . . and in the daies of these kings shall the god of heaven set up a kingdom , which shall never be destroyed ; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people , it shall not have any successor , but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms , and it shall stand for ever ; it shall be unshaken , though the earth and the heavens be once more shaken , heb. . , , . and for the time of the saints of the most high taking the kingdom , and possessing the kingdom for ever , even for ever and ever , dan. . . it is expressed , v. . to be when one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven , and came to the ancient of days , and they brought him near before him . which in the new testament is applied to christs second coming , matth. . . and . . mark . . and . . luke . . revel . . . acts . . thes. . . which mr. mede in his fourth letter to mr. hayn proves to be at christs second coming by the brightness of which shall be the consumption of the man of sin , thes. . . and at his appearing shall be his kingdom , tim. . . and then shall the saints of the most high , which overcome sit with him in his throne , even as he also overcame , and is set down with his father in his throne , revel . . . to them he will give power over the nations , to rule them with a rod of iron , so that as a potters vessel they shall be broken to shivers , even as he received of his father revel . . . . then the kingdoms of the world shall be the lords and his christs , and he shall reign for ever and ever , the lord god almighty takes to him his great power and reigns , and the nations were angry , and his wrath was come , and the time of the dead that they should be judged , and that he should give the reward unto his servants the prophets , and to the saints , and to them that fear his name , small and great , and should destroy them which destroy the earth , revel . . . , . and revel . . . the thrones are said to be set as dan. . . and they sate upon them and judgment was given to them as dan. . . & then the dominion or kingdom given . to the saints who are troubled rest shall be given by god with the apostles when the lord jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels , th. . . the saints shall judge the world , cor. . . and jesus said unto them , verily i say unto you , that ye which have followed me , in the regeneration , when the son of man shall fit in the throne of his glory , ye shall also fit upon twelve thrones , judging the twelve tribes of israel , matth. . . ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations : and i appoint unto you a kingdom , as my father hath appointed unto me : that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom , and fit on thrones judging the tribes of israel , luke . , , . and for the means of obtaining this kingdom as it is said , the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands , that is human help , so it is said , in the daies of these kings shall the god of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed , dan. . , . which therefore our lord called the kingdom of heaven , and gives the reason , because his kingdom was not of this world , nor from hence , john . . but from heaven . and where it is said , that the saints of the most high shall take the kingdom , and possess the kingdom for ever , even for ever and ever , dan. . . it is added v. , . i beheld and the same horn made war with the saints and prevailed against them ; until the ancient of daies came , and judgment was given to the saints of the most high ; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom . v. , . but the judgment shall fit , and they shall take away his dominion , to consume and to destroy it unto the end . and the kingdom , and dominion , and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the most high , whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom , and all dominions shall serve and obey him . the saints take it not by their getting it , but by gift , not by conquest , but donation . suteably in the new testament , luk. . . fear not little flock , for it is your fathers good pleasure to give you the kingdom : matth. . . come ye blessed of my father inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world . out of which passages we may well infer . that it is great temerity in the quinto-monarchians to be so peremptory as they are , in setting down the time of the saints taking the kingdom : especially , if we consider , that when our lord christ was asked immediately afore his ascension into heaven , lord , wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to israel ? he said unto them , it is not for you to know the times or the seasons , which the father hath put in his own power , acts . , . wherein he gives us to understand , that the times and seasons of restoring the kingdom to israel are put by the father in his own peculiar power , and therefore were not to be then known to the apostles , nor to us , till by the events shewing the foregoing signs , and the special instinct of gods spirit was shewed the just period of the mystical numbers , in which they are to be fulfilled . . we may infer , that it is very great folly , pride and arrogant presumption for a number of gentile saints in an island or continent to think to smite the fourth monarchy by arms , which is to be destroyed by the spirit of the lords mouth , and the brightness of his coming , and to take to themselves a kingdom which god only can give , and to set up christs kingdom , which god makes his prerogative , ps. . . yet have i set my king upon my holy hill of zion , ps. . , . the lord said unto my lord , sit thou at my right hand , until i make thine enemies thy footstool . the lord shall send the rod of thy strengh out of zion : rule thou in the mids of thine enemies ; and to think to do this by armes a feeble means , which is to be done not by might , nor by power , but by his spirit . the monstrous arrogance of this attempt is made the more hainous . because , when it hath been begun heretofore by any , they have found god against them , the lord by his providence dissipating their counsels and frustrating their attempts , so as that in fine they have only brought ruin to themselves , and occasioned hatred of the wayes of god , and a hard hand in civil powers on the innocent . which argument , although it do not universally hold , that what succeeds not well in the event pleaseth not god , yet is good against these men , who have no other ground or warrant to their attempts , but the opinion they have of gods putting it into their heart and assurance of his help , this being their own speech banner displayed , p. . so that we make our conclusion ( with manoahs wife of old ) if the lord were pleased to kill us ( or suffer our enemies to kill us ) he would not have received a burnt offering , and a meat offering at our hands ; neither would he have shewed us all these things , nor would [ as at this time ] have told us such things as these , judges . . which shewes that the chief thing animating them to that bloody attempt was the opinion they had , that their determinations were of god , and that they were assured of help from him ; which was the very thing that thomas muncer , and hacket , and such like unquiet spirits were of satan incited by , and ended in nothing but blasphemy of god , and reproach of religion . . their abuse of scriptures wrested by unstable and unlearned persons to their destruction , arguing from obscure passages against plain precepts doth aggravate their evil acts , it being no small evil to make the holy scriptures , which are for humility , meekness , patience , trust in god , peaceableness , an instrument to commotions , disobedience to superiors , shedding blood , & such like horrid wickedness . so in the banner desp●ayed p. . mal. . . rev. . , . are alledged to prove the stone , dan. . , . is christ jesus in the pure sanctified and refined gentile christians ; when the former speaks of the sons of levi , and the other mentions the . who it is likely are the same with . revel . . . sealed of all the tribes of israel : and p. . the words of the prophet jerem. . , , , , . spoken either of cyrus , or the king of babel are alleged to prove , that the lord hath elected and made choice of zion his people to act in this work and service ( of smiting civil powers ) unto whom he saith thus , thou art my battle-axe and weapon of war. so extremely are they deceived and deceive others . . which is the worse in them , in that they urge their notions as matters of their faith , when yet they use conjectural expressions , p. . probable conjecture , p. . seems to favour , p. . we do not ascertain or determin , only suppose , p. . this our opinion . p. . we may probably conclude , p. . humbly conceive about them ; and sometimes vent inconsistencies , as that the stone is christ , and yet the gentile saints , the jewes excluded , though they shall be the stone when made a mountain , with many more uncertainties about the stone , the little horn , dan. . and other things too tedious to be insisted on . . to these we may add the uncharitable conceits of their governors , their revilings of them , their unquietness in separating from those that concur not with them , their contention , and ejection from their society , such as do oppose them in their heady and violent practises , all which shew , that they are animated by the infernal spirit , and not from above , and in all likelihood have received their opinions and practises from jesuites and emissaries of rome , who have crept into societies of zealous christians and sown their tares among them . the tenents about civil powers being too near of kin to one another . § . the claim which quinto-monarchians make to civil government on earth in the saints afore christs coming is false . having shewed the sinfulness of smiting civil powers , the vanity of the conceits about the stone , dan. . , . the falsity of the notions about the fifth-monarchy , i shall now examin their assertions about the saints right to the kingdom on earth before christs coming ; about which are held many false and pernicious positions which i shall now discuss . the first is , that before cited by me sect . . in these words , the creature man was priviledged with being lord over inferior creatures , but not over his own kind ; for all men being alike priviledged by birth , so all men were to enjoy the creatures alike without propriety one more than another . which position is manifestly false even concerning the state of nature uncorrupt . for even then the man was the head of the woman , as the apostle asserts cor. . . and proves v. . . from the womans creation : for the man is not of the woman , but the woman of the man : neither was the man created for the woman , but the woman for the man ; which plainly proves a dominion and propriety of the man over and in the woman , who is of his own kind , and the contrary doctrine would infer not only polygamy , but also community of wives , which was the very doctrine of the nicolaitanes , of which christ saith in two epistles , rev. . . . which thing i bate . the same also may be said concerning father and child even in nature uncorrupt , if there had been any child born in that state , they would not have been all alike priviledged by birth , but the creature man was priviledged with being lord over his own kind , nor were all men to enjoy the creatures alike without propriety but one more than another , the father being priviledged by birth above his child , so as to be lord over his child , and enjoy him with propriety , and not another his child , nor he anothers : nor is it to be conceived , but that in goods , cattel and fruits of the earth , there would have been propriety in them so , as that the wife was to be at the husbands disposing and allowance concerning them , and the child at the fathers . . the second ( which is the quinto-monarchians opinion cited sect. . ) is that all men , as they are men have lost their rights and priviledges in respect of government in the first adam . which is false . for , . our lord christ in the point of divorce doth determin , that divorces allowed by the jewes were not right , because they agreed not with the law of marriage in the beginning , matth. . , , . which argument of our lord rests on this proposition , that what law was made in the beginning was in force still , and consequently the right of government , which a husband had above his wife , a father above his child , continue still . . if all rights and priviledges in respect of government in the first adam were lost , then they are still lost to them that are not in christ , which if it were true , all unbelievers would be usurpers : but this is false . for . the government of husbands over wives remains to infidels , the author to the hebrewes ch . . . tels us , that marriage is honourable in all , therefore in infidels . if not , then the apostle cor. . . did not rightly determine , that the woman , which had a husband that believed not , if he were pleased to dwell with her , was not to put him away , or leave him ; which supposeth , that the right and power of a husband remained in him , though an infidel ; for , where the bond of marriage continues , the right and priviledge in government belonging to it still continues . the same also is to be said concerning the right & priviledge of a parent in respect of the child , it remains as well to infidels as believers , and also masters over servants . for even such as were evil or froward , from whom they were likely to suffer , yet the apostle peter . , . would have christians to be subject to them for conscience towards god ; therefore they had a right of government over them , who were infidels , even by gods appointment . ▪ yea the fifth-monarchy-men themselves in the banner displayd p. . acknowledge , that the powers of old rome the a bloody persecutor were ordained of god , rom. . . and therefore even infidel powers have right and priviledge of government by their own concession . and indeed the apostles determinations cor. . , , , , , . are plain resolutions , that the christian calling , doth neither make men free , nor servants , nor alter their civil relations , but that the christian is , as he was , neither better nor worse in that regard . . if infidels were usurpers of government , then what ever sentence they past , it was unjust , though it were never so right in respect of the cause , it being done by him that was no judge , whereas the scripture makes even the infidel powers gods ministers revengers , or doers of right unto wrath unto him that doth evil . rom. . . . if they were usurpers , then did christ ill to bid to pay tribute to caesar , to acknowledge pilates power given him from above , john . . paul to appeal to caesar , and to say , he stood before caesars judgment seat , where he ought to be judged , acts . , . he should not have said , i think my self happy king agrippa , because i shall answer for my self before thee this day , acts . . nor to felix , acts . . forasmuch as i know , that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation , i do the more chearfully answer for my self , he should have declined his audience , or sentence , as being coram non judice , or have termed him a man , without any shew of reverence , or respect , as the quakers are wont to do , or have termed him antichristian , or babylon , as the quinto-monarchians do the civil powers now extant . in a word no honour should be due to an unblieving prince , though st. peter bids , honour the king pet. . . and the arguments urged before sect : . should be evacuated . . if all right and privledges in respect of government in the first adam were lost among infidels , so as that all infidel judges were usurpers , then among them judges were not unjust , though they did not right to the wronged , because they had no power , and so the judge , who feared not god , nor regarded man , had not been rightly termed by our lord christ , an unjust judge , luke . . for not avenging the widdow . nor pharoah , or abimelech , justly punished for not restoring abrams wife , nor any just war between the king of sodom and other kings , nor had ephron the hittite any just possession of the cave abraham bought , nor any just contract between isaac and abimelech , nor did david justly defend toi against hadadezer , nor is there any justice in contracts , or comerce with infidels to be observed , nor they capable of doing right , or wrong , if there be no just legislative power , or power of judicatory among them , but they bear the sword , if not in vain , yet unjustly , and therefore are ill charged by st. paul , rom. . . to be filled with all unrighteousness . a third position , which with inconsiderate men takes , as being in shew agreeable with scripture , and tending to christs honour , though as they mean and use it , it is both false and pernicious , is , that jesus christ is the only lawful and true begotten heir , and lawful king , and potentate of these three nations , and of all the nations of the earth , and ( as he is the seed of abraham ) shall possess the earth : yea and the very gates of his enemies ; and that the sole legislative power of the nations , is and doth of right appertain and belong to him , and shall be exercised by him , dan. . . jerem. . . isai. . , . gal. . . &c. from whence it hath been usual with the men of this persuasion , not only to style christ king jesus ( which is his right ) but also to disavow any other king but king jesus , as if the owning of any other as king in these nations were indeed a renouncing christ from being their king. now it is to be granted . . that the lord jesus christ not only as he is the son of god , but also as man , is of right , and is to be acknowledged the prince of the kings of the earth , revel . . . to whom all power in heaven and earth is given , matth. . . god hath made him lord and christ , acts . . he is lord of all , acts . . nor is it denyed that the texts quoted do belong to him : or that he is the heir of all the nations of the earth , as he is the seed of abraham , to whom the promises were spoken . yet the words , daniel . . mention his kingdom not till the judgment sit , and they shall take away the dominion of the little horn , to consume and to destroy it unto the end ; and therefore assert not the exercise of the kingdom there meant as yet . the words jerem. . . are impertinently alledged concerning christs being king of nations as the seed of abraham ; sich they are spoken only of the divine nature in opposition to the idols of the nations . the words isai. . , . foretold christs kingdom in the daies of his flesh , which christ himself saith , was not of this world , but such as belonged to him as the child born , of the increase of whose government there should be no end . the words , gal. . . are true of christ personal , but so also , as that they have respect to all believers as abrahams seed by faith v. . . and that they are not to be understood of a visible monarchy acquired by fighting ( of which the quinto-monarchians dream ) but of the inheritance of the righteousness , by faith , which should be to all nations v. . in which respect abraham also is said to be the heir of the world , rom. . . . it is not to be denied , that all kings ought to acknowledge christ their superiour , and themselves to be subordinate to him , and that those , who will not acknowledge the holding of their power , crownes and scepters under this great monarch , and for him , shall be deemed and adjudged by christ as traitors to him , and proceeded against accordingly by him , according to his lawes ; and the threatning , luke . . but . this will be done by him in such way as he thinks good , he hath not made any saints on earth judges over kings , whether they be traitors to christ or not , nor allowed them to proceed against them , nor hath he assigned any time wherein he will proceed against them afore the great day of judgment , in which he will judge the saints as well as kings , and will damn them that pretending themselves saints , shall take upon them christs peculiar office to judge their kings , and execute judgment ( that is outrage and murder ) on their governours to whom christ requires their subjection . sure paul , when he reasoned with felix , acts . . did nor go about to terrify him with threatning of any judgment , he , or the saints on earth had , but minded him of the judgment to come . nor did our lord christ himself , either to pilate , or the high priest use any menacing speeches , but only told the high priest , matth. . . hereafter ye shall see the son of man sitting on the right hand of power , and coming on the clouds of heaven . . this will nothing concern the king of these three nations , nor any other kings , or rulers , who do acknowledge they rule under christ , and rule for christ , and therefore cannot with any colour be adjudged as enemies to christ by those , who have no cognizance of the secrets of mens hearts , nor any way or power of judicature in such things , but must leave them to the trial of the universal judge . . we grant , that , so far as christ hath made any lawes pertaining to civil , or church government , kings have no power to abrogate or alter them , but are bound , according to that authority they have , to see them executed and observed ; yea and to repress them , that pretend themselves saints , as traitors both to them and christ , from whom they have authority , who appose their power , and hinder their actings in that which is agreeable to christs lawes . for if they be not officers under christ as mediator ( which i assert not ) yet they are rulers under christ as the son of god , and will be owned and assisted by him , in doing his work against any that pretends himself christs vicar , or lurks under the vizour of a saint . but as i said before , sect. . . the lawes of christ are not sufficient without other lawes to settle and order thousands of particulars whether belonging to the church , or common-wealth , but that there is need of humane lawes to determin them . . that the jewish lawes are not fitted for the government of christian states , and churches of the gentiles , except in some few . . that the lord christ and his apostles did of purpose leave us at liberty concerning them , lest the gospel should be hindered by them , and permitted all nations to order their own lawes and civil government according to general precepts of the word and the exigence of civil affairs . . that to tie men to mosaical civil precepts , any further than the general equity of them requires , would be to judaize . . that the most holy saints that are on earth , are and will be bound to observe humane lawes of their civil seperiors under pain of god ; wrath till christ at his coming put down all rule and all authority and power . . that it no whit detracts from christs supreme dominion to have kings to be rulers under him , and therefore we abhor that speech cited sect . . jesus christ alone is lord and king , and all men are equals . a fourth position deduced from the third , is , that the saints of the most high are by themselves a common-wealth and free-state , which is somewhat like the opinion of papists who exempt men in holy orders from the secular power , and it is not unlikely to have been instilled into the minds of quinto-monarchians by some of the popish party ; but is a false and foolish conceit , refuted by all the arguments before produced , requiring subjection to civil powers , even such as are evil , and proving , even agreeably to the state of mankind corrupt , that civil power and natural power of government belongs to infidels over saints , and therefore saints cannot without injury shake off the yoke of allegiance and obedience , which is upon them by the imposition of civil and natural powers , though unbelievers . it is also foolish , for . it supposeth saints may be by themselves , which is contrary to the express doctrine of our lord , matth. . . which tels us , that the tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest , which he expounds after v. , . that it shall be the end of the world afore the wicked and the children of the kingdom shall be separated : which he also teacheth by another parable v. , , , . all those who are for gathered churches , though they would have none in church communion but visible saints , yet are forced to acknowledge from these scriptures , that they must live together , whether they will or no , in the world , and therefore this , and indeed the whole project of the quinto-monarchians , is but a fond dream , and too like the donatists and circumcellions of old in africa . but were it granted , that there may be , or have been plantations of godly persons unmixt : yet experience hath shewed , that even amongst them differences quickly arise , by reason of different apprehensions , and divisions and enmities , and in a little time heats , animosities , factions , oppositions and other corruptions follow . besides , who can secure the generation following from corruption ? moses and joshuah settled the common-wealth of israel with order , laws , rites of religion , and all by immediate direction from god : yet quickly did they corrupt themselves . the like may be said of the times succeeding david and solomon . our own times yield like instances , that the posterity of the best and holiest planters , though free from many provocations , which the people have from whom they remove , yet in an age do degenerate from their predecessors holiness , and in their manners and government become like other people . and what we have seen in our daies , of the giddiness , shallowness , instability , selfishness of the choicest men for government , and holiness , whom men could find in a nation , should me thinks awaken men from continuing in that dream , no better than the fancy of a golden mountain , as if they might have a common-wealth or free-state or gathered church by themselves on earth of pure saints . . but were this feasible , that there were a common-wealth or free state of uncorrupt saints by themselves on earth afore christs appearing , yet without such promise and provision made for them by christ , as we yet have no assurance of , they would not subsist long , but perhaps be , as the historians phrase is , populus unius aetatis , a people of one age , by reason of the weakness they would have to resist their enemies , which would be more in number than themselves , perhaps a thousand fold , and their enmity be encreased as pharaoh's was to the children of israel , and either oppress them or destroy them . if after the thousand years reign the divel could go out to deceive the nations , which are in the four quarters of the earth , gog and magog , to gather them to battel , their number being as the sand of the sea , and they go up on the breadth of the earth , and compass about the camp of the saints and the beloved city , rev. . , . it is much more likely , while satan is at liberty and millions of enemies infidel pagans , cruel mahometans , bloody papists , profane and vitious protestants , unquiet and unruly members in the gathered churches , loose libertines , and erroneous revolters from pure worship , true doctrine , and true christian conversation in duties of love and righteousness , walk on every side , that a small number of saints in profession should have more enemies against them , if they did live by themselves on earth , as an entire and independent common-wealth . if in christs retinue there were a judas , can any company of saints secure themselves from hypocritical members , and their treachery ? sure the little flock of christ is more beholding to kings and rulers , and laws , and government , though with some rigour and persecution , than they are sensible of , or thankful for as they should be . we have seen how unsuccessful endeavours have been to reform churches , to rectify governments as we desire , how like tinkers work alterations in them have been , that while one hole is stopped two are made , how many various forms of government have been devised , whereof one hath opposed the other , that while they have been hammering on a new frame all hath fallen to pieces , every one likely agreeing about what they would not have , few about what they would have . and therefore it would be more agreeable to the mind of god , for christians now though under many grievances and pressures to subject themselves peaceably even to hard rulers , and as god admonished the jews in babylon to pray for their peace , for in their peace they should have peace , and to seek the peace of them , jer. . . till god call them out of babylon by his providence , and not either by flying from them as enemies desert their station ( wherein by their abiding they might perhaps through their good conversation amend them , or by their patience pacify them ) or by reviling provoke them , or by conspiracies or tumults incense them against them , much less after the quinto-monarchians furious manner take up arms to make themselves a free-state , and lords of the world . the fifth position is , that saints regained the rights and priviledges in respect of government in the second adam or lord from heaven , which position is deduced out of the former , but is false and pernicious . for . it supposeth that the rights and priviledges in respect of government were lost in the first adam , which is before proved false . . that the second adam , or lord from heaven , hath regained them : whereas there is no text of scripture that doth mention , that this was the end of his coming into the world to get for himself or for his disciples the actual regiment or government of the natitions of the world in an outward manner by making and executing laws about civil affairs , nor was this ever claimed by christ or his apostles , but when he perceived that they would come and take him by force , to make him a king , he departed again into a mountain himself alone , john . . and when one of the company said unto him , master , speak to my brother , that he divide the inheritance with me , he said unto him , man , who made me a judge or divider over you ? luke . . . which plainly shews christs refusal of medling with civil affairs , though it were but by speaking for one brother to another , yea and his disclaiming any civil office or judicature as not belonging unto him . and his whole estate of life , and deportment in the daies of his flesh was altogether incongruous to a civil government , or rule ; nor did he ever disturb herod , pilate , the high priests or elders of the jews about their government , but only he once drave the buyers and sellers out of the temple by special instinct , and rode on an asse into jerusalem , to shew his right as the son of david , and freely reproved the wickedness of the jewish rulers and pharisees , yet still requiring those that were healed of leprosy , to go to the priests and shew themselves to them for a testimony to them , that he was not against the observance due by the law to them . it is indeed said rom. . . that to this end christ both died , and rose and revived , that he might be lord both of the dead and living . but this cannot be meant in respect of civil government on earth , and the rights and priviledges thereof , but the spiritual rule he hath over them now , and the great dominion he shall have at the universal judgment , when at the name of jesus every knee shall bow of things in heaven and things in earth , and things under the earth , and every tongue shall confess that jesus christ is lord , to the glory of god the father , phil. . . . yea this thing was the very stumbling block of the pharisees , by reason of which they denied his kingdom , and his being the messiah ; because he did not take upon him civil rule , nor by human forces subdue the romans , as david the philistines , but by invisible power cast out divels , healed diseases , rebuked storms , and multiplyed loaves , and did such other acts , and gave such laws as were altogether unsutable to the king and kingdom which they fancied and expected . so that this conceit of christs regaining the rights and priviledges in respect of government , which was lost in the first adam , meaning the outward visible government of the world in respect of civil affairs , is but a jewish opinion altogether disagreeing with christian doctrine . it is true , that the apostles minds did oftentimes hanker after it , contending sundry times who should be chiefest among them , and the two brethren james and john by their mother asking the two nearest places to christ in his kingdom : but they were checked by christ expresly telling them , that to sit at his right hand or his left was not his to give , but for whom it was prepared of his father , matth. . . shewing thereby that in his present state he had no such kingdom , or throne as they dreamed of , nor was to have ; nor the disposal of such places as they ambitiously sought , but told them of their suffering afflictions , and to all his apostles said , ye know that the princes of the gentiles exercise dominion over them , and they that are great exercise authority upon them , but it shall not be so among you v. , . yea when they would know , who should be greatest in the kingdom of heaven , he called a little child unto him , and set him in the midst of them , and said , verily i say unto you , except ye be converted , and become as little children , ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven , whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven , matth. . , , , . declaring plainly , that all affecting government , and superiority in this world was contrary to his kingdom , and therefore the monstrous ambition of quinto-monarchians , of getting into their hands the kingdoms of this world , is as contrary to christianity as bitter to sweet , darkness to light , or rather indeed antichristian , or babylonish , being under another disguise the same with the popes claim of universal monarchy , as vicar of christ , of having both swords spiritual and temporal , therein lifting himself above all that is caled god , or is worshipped thes. . . it is true that it is said , heb. . . god hath in these last dayes spoken unto us by his son , whom he hath appointed heir of all things ; but this inheritance is either as he is the son of god , according to his divine nature , or his inheritance at his exaltation into heaven , in that sense , in which he is said to be made head over all things , to , or for the church , ephes. . . which is to be understood in respect of that power over angels and men , so far as concerns their administation of all things , for the welfare of his church , in neither of which are the saints heirs with him . but in neither of these senses , nor in any other sense , or place of scripture is he said to be the heir of the world so , as that he should regain the rights and priviledges in respect of civil government lost in adam , nor where abraham is promised to be heir of the world , rem . . . is it meant in respect of the civil government of the world , but as the text shews , that he should be heir of the world , that is the blessing of righteousness should be to jewes and gentiles throughout the world , walking in the steps of his examplary faith , whereby they become his seed . . it asserteth , that saints regained the rights and priviledges , in respect of government in the second adam , or lord from heaven ; which is a false and a most arrogant presumptuous position . for , . if christ have not regained it for them , then they have not regained them in him . but that christ hath not regained it for them , is already proved in overthrowing the second supposition ; therefore saints have not regained in christ the rights and priviledges , in respect of government civil . . if government civil were not lost in adam , then it is not regained in christ , but civil government and natural were not lost in adam , as is before proved in this section ; therefore they were not regained in christ. . if the rights and priviledges of civil governments were not regained in christ to the apostles , then they were not regained in christ to any saints ; for none had more regained for them by christ than the apostles , nor any of the saints excelled them ; if any can shew better charters , or patents from christ for such rights and priviledges , then the apostles , let them shew them ; the holy scripture tells us , that god hath set in the church first apostles , cor. . . they are in the foundations , eph. . ▪ revel . . . but , that the apostles had not the rights and priviledges in respect of civil government on earth , afore christ's coming in the clouds , is proved before from christs words , matth. . , . from rom. . . where every soul , even an apostle , saith chrysostome , is to be subject to the higher powers , from st. paul his acknowledgments and example of subjection , from st. peters precept and example . whence we account the popes of rome to have the forehead of and impudent whore , when they claim in st. peters right , the universal monarchy of the whole church , and superiority above emperors and kings , and directly , or indirectly in order to spirituals , power to dispose of civil governments , to translate the empire , depose princes , give away kingdoms , command emperors to make an expedition to the holy land , and many more things , as if they were his right , as successor to st. peter , to whom christ promised the keys of the kingdom of heaven , not of earth . if this claim be justly , as it is , judged to be an antichristian , babylonish usurpation , it is by parity of reason . more antichristian , and babylonish for the quinto-monarchans to challenge the rights and priviledges in respect of government to be gained to them under the name of saints , when they can shew no such donation from christ , or any act of acquisition , whereby he obtained it for them , or any conveyance of it to them , or any saints till christs appearing ; the apostles shall sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of israel , but not till the regeneration , when the son of man shall sit in the throne of his golory , matth. . . termed his kingdom , luke . . . the saints shall judge the world , but not till the time come they shall judge angels , cor. . , . in the interim their condition is to be humbled under the mighty hand of god , that he may exalt them in due time pet. . . james . . . if the portion of the saints which is regained for them by christ be in spiritual blessings in heavenly things , and no where in temporal dominion in this life , then it is false , that saints regained the rights and priviledges in respect of government in the second adam , or lord from heaven , but the antecedent is true ▪ as appears by the many promises to them , which assign spiritual blessings to them as their portion . where the apostle paul mentions the blessings given to the faithful in christ jesus he saith , ephes ▪ . . blessed be the god and father of our lord jesus christ , who hath blessed us with all spiritural blessings in heavenly places , or things in christ , and then recites them without mention of any earthly power or preferment . in the new covenant set down , heb. . , , . spiritual grace is promised , but not earthly greatness , and riches as in the old . where our lord christ , matth. . assignes blessedness to holy persons , he placeth it in other things , then the kingdoms of this world . he saith , v. . blessed are the meek , for they shall inherit the earth , but no where the dominions of the earth . the apostle saith , tim. . . bodily exercise profiteth little , or for a little time , but godliness is profitable for all things , or for every time , having the promise of the life that now is , and that which is to come . but how to understand this our saviour tells us , mark . , . there is no man that hath left house , or brethren , or sisters , or father , or mother , or wife , or children , or lands for my sake and the gospels , but he shall receive an hundred fold now in this time , houses , and brethren , and sisters , and mothers ( which cannot be understood in the same kind , but in that which is equivalent ) & children , and lands , with persecutions , and in the world to come , eternal life . we are heirs with christ , but 't is , if so be that we suffer with him , that we may be glorified together , rom. . . whether paul , or apollos , or cephas , or the world , or life , or death , or things present , or things to come , all are yours ; and ye are christs , and christ is gods , cor. . , . but all are not theirs to dispose them , or to rule over them , they cannot dispose of life , or death , things to come , nor have rule over paul , or cephas . but god doth order and dispose them for their benefit in the event , as it is said , rom. . . and we know that all things work together for good to them that love god , to them who are the called according to purpose . the saints shall inherit all things , but they must overcome first , revel . . . by the blood of the lamb , and by the word of their testimony , not loving their lives unto the death , revel . . . no where is there a promise of the rights and priviledges of civil government to the saints on earth . . if the holy scripture makes it an ill character of a man , and an accursed condition to have his treasure on earth , his portion in this life , his good things here , to be his danger , and an ill foreboding sign to be rich , that the desire and care of these things intangle and insnare men , choke the word of god , that it becomes unfruitful , then sure they have not regained the rights and priviledges in respect of government in the second adam . but the former is true , as is manifest in these scriptures , matth. . , , , . and . . mark . , , . psal. . . luke . , . and . . tim. . , . therefore also the later ; and therefore we may more truly say , that the men who make this claim , do indeed unsaint themselves . . if it be gods design to have , for the most part the holy saints to be of the meanest sort , then sure they have not regained the rights and priviledges in respect of civil government and possessions in this life . but the former is true , as appears by these scriptures , cor. . , , , . you see your calling , brethren , how that not many wise men after the flesh , not many mighty , not many , noble are called : but god hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the things that are mighty ; and base things of the world , and things which are despised hath god chosen ; and things which are not to bring to nought things which are , that no flesh should glory in his presence . jam. . . hath not god chosen the poor of this world rich in faith , and heirs of that kingdom which god hath promised to them that love him . therefore the saints regain not priviledges of government in this life , if the saints and princes of this world are often distinguished , then saints as such have not regained the rights and priviledges in respect of government in this life ; but they are so distinguished , cor. , , . therefore the consequent is right . . if saints receive that kingdom which cannot be shaken , then their interest is not in the kingdoms of this world that come to nought , cor. . . but the former is true , heb. . . therefore also is the later . . if christ have made the saints kings and priests to his father , not to men , a royal priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to god by jesus christ , then that which christ hath effected for the saints is not the gaining of the rights and priviledges in respect of civil government . but the former is true , rev. . . and . . pet. . . . therefore also the later is true . . if the saints be exceeded in wisdom and power fit for civil government by the men of this world , then sure christ did not regain for them the rights and priviledges in respect of civil government in this world : for sure , if he had gained the end he would have provided and ordered the means , as is done by him in respect of the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven or eternal life . but the antecedent is true , as appears by our saviours words , luk. . . the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light , and all experience in all ages , which shews how few of them are fit for managing of civil government , therefore the rights and priviledges in respect of civil government in this life are not provided for them . . if the rights and priviledges in respect of civil government were gained for the saints , then doubtlesse christ would have directed them in the way and means to have attained them , but that he hath no where done , but left all nations to their own constitutions and waies of government , therefore christ hath not gained for the saints the right to civil government . . if the rights and priviledges in respect of civil government were gained by christ for the saints , then they that are not saints are not governors of right , then no king is rightly a king , no master rightly a master , no husband rightly a husband , or father rightly a father , or tutor rightly a tutor , but a saint . but this is false as hath been shewed abundantly before , the scripture acknowledging , yea the quinto-monarchians themselves acknowledging even the powers that were the emperors of rome , though bloudy persecutors of the saints , the ordinance of god , therefore government civil is not the saints right and priviledge . . if the saints had regained by christ the rights and priviledges in respect of government then they had right to require tribute and service of men , and consequently what they impose is due to them , and then they should not be guilty of unrighteousness , theft , purloining , though they took from infidel masters or other unbelievers . but the scriptures make believers or saints culpable for extortion , theft , purloining , covetousness , defrauding as well as others cor. . . ephes. . . thes. . . thes. . . . tit. . . therefore they have not the rights and priviledges in respect of government . . if the saints have regained the priviledges and rights in respect of civil government in christ , then either as saints , or under some other consideration ; if under some other consideration , then it is not by reason of their sanctity or their interest in christ ; if as saints , then all saints have these rights of government ; and if so , a child that is a saint , a wife , a servant , over an infidel father , husband , master , which would invert all order , and make voyd all the precepts of obeying parents , ephes. . . submitting to husbands , eph. . . obedience to masters , eph. . . all which are grosly absurd making void the commandments of god for human traditions . . if the saints have the rights and priviledges in respect of government regained in christ , then either saints by profession or real only : not the former , for such are hypocrites , children of hell more than others , and therefore christ hath purchased nothing for them by his death or intercession ; not the later , for then rights and priviledges in respect of government should be a nemo scit , a thing which no man can judge of , but he who can search the heart and try the reigns ; but rights and priviledges in respect of government are things necessary to be known , that we may know to whom we are bound to be subject , to pay tribute , to address our selves to for justice , and other ends and uses of empire . . if saints have the rights and priviledges in respect of government , then those only have power to make governors , as kings and their officers , who make saints , especially preachers , ministers , and pastors of churches . but the scripture makes this no part of a ministers work , he is not to intangle himself in affairs of this life , tim. . . this is never intimated to have been done , or that it should be done : they are said to be of god , his ministers , not the ministers of the saints or pastors of churches , nor did ever any pretend it to be the right of church officers to constitute kings and civil governors , till the popes of rome usurped that power to create the emperors , whose predecessor gregory the great acknowledged the emperor mauricius to be his lord , and the like was done by other popes to the emperors of rome , until the time of hildebrand named gregory the seventh , whom becket in england followed taking upon him to annul the english laws , and asserting the kings power to be from the church . . if the rights and priviledges in respect of government be the saints , then they cease to be governors when they cease to be saints , and so the opinion heretofore charged unjustly on wickleff , that a prelate or prince falling into mortal sin should be disavowed , which is even by romanists decried ; then might those that have power to excommunicate and to declare them hereticks , apostates depose them , yea then should princes be at the mercy , not only of popes , but also of every ecclesiastical consistory , yea they themselves should be bound in such cases to lay down their government , and ecclesiastical rulers and godly persons to abandon them as being no governors of right , because no saints : which would make governments , which are the great supporters of human society , to be the weakest and silliest invention among men , not like the ordinance of god , by whom kings reign and princes decree justice , prov. . . but rather a device of idiots , bring the greatest confusions and mischiefs incident to human affairs , deter infidel princes to become christians , if they see they must possesse their dominion at the will of ecclesiasticks , with many other great absurdities . we find in scripture kings have deposed priests , as solomon did abiathar by gods allowance , but no where priests to have deposed kings with any approbation : this hath been but of late , a thing hatch'd at rome , and fetch'd from hell. . if the saints have the rights and priviledges in respect of government regained in christ , then is temporal dominion founded in grace , but that is not true , sith it is given out of common providence for the good of human society , not out of special love to the saints : for it is one of the things that is for the benefit of the bad as well as the good , as the shining of the sun , and the falling of the rain , matth. . . and therefore the benefit of it is sometimes denied to the good , and granted to the bad , so that in these things all are alike , one event is to the righteous and the wicked , eccles. . . . if government of others were the saints right , god would not have made saul king , nor david acknowledged him king over israel , nor adjudged him to death that slew him , nor would god have termed cyrus his shepheard , isa. . . his anointed , isa. . . nor daniel have said to nebuchadnezzar dan. . . thou o king art a king of kings , for the god of heaven hath given thee a kingdom power and strength and glory , or to darius , o king live for ever , dan. . . . if the saints have regained in christ the rights and priviledges in respect of government , then all offices of government , or some only ; if all , then every saint is of right a king , and so a king by inheritance , succession or election , is no more a king than the meanest saint , yea than a child , if a saint , and so no wo when the king is a child contrary to eccles. . . then one person hath no more right to an office than another , which would introduce anarchy , and take away all government , which is indeed the event to which fifth-monarchy-mens principles and actings tend , under shew of the saints right to put power into the hands of the most violent spirits , whereby all orderly government will be demolished , and tyranny of a few , with the common robbery of all , promoted . if some only have rights to some offices and priviledges in respect of government , who shall distinguish ? how shall the right of each be tried ? what court shall there be to decide controversies of this kind ? is there any that hath discerning of spirits to find out each ones fitness ? is there any oracle of god , any priest by urim and thummim , who can declare what is to be done ? sure such devices are not of god , but of satan , which tend to unsettle things placed in order , and involve men in inextricable difficulties not to be avoided without a miracle . lastly , if the saints have regained rights and priviledges in respect of government in christ , then are those unjustly debarred from them who are saints . but the quinto-monarchians in their banner of truth displayed do not only declare the saints are to separate from the romish , universal , national prelatical , parochial presbyterian churches , but also from the congregational churches , though they hope godly , if they oppose them or concur not with them in their smiting work , though they be brethren in the churches , yet they accompt him and that spirit which either in act or deed wilfully and obstinately ( as blessed be the almighty they did both before by the quinto-monarchians own confession and in the year ) denies the smiting work of our lords kingdom ( as they pretend it to be , though it be but their own work , and for themselves moved by their own phrenetick fury or intemperate blind zeal ) antichristian , terming them formally godly , if they be not as violent as themselves , and degrading them as if they had no sanctity , who are not s●●dementate as themselves , which shews that they account them only for saints , that are of their spirit and mind , and appropriate the rights and priviledges in respect of government to those of their party , excluding those who join not with them , though confessedly godly and brethren , for whom , they cannot deny , christ hath regained as much as for themselves , which shews their injustice , if not hypocrisy , and overthrows their assertion , that the saints as saints have regained in christ the rights and priviledges in respect of government , sith they will have no saints , but their own party to have regained them . the sixth position to which all their consultation and doctrine tends , and which is indeed the venom and poyson of all their tenents boyled up to the heigth , is , that the kingdom and power in these nations is the saints birthright as freemen of the common-wealth of israel and heirs of the whole world with christ , gal. . . whence 't is that they say , 't is to be desired from good and sound grounds that they would exercise that royal authority which god has given unto them and invested them with as they are saints by calling , which is to defend themselves and offend their enemies , and to contend against those that do or shall oppose them in their work and businesse , which is to smite powers and to take the kingdoms of the world into their own possession , the glass of the beasts power being almost run out in these nations , p. . the call which the stone shall have to act in its smiting work , is for the greatest part thereof now pertinent and fitly applicable to a faithful remnant now extant in england , and fulfilled in and upon them ; and also seeing that the signs laid down in the word of god for the time of the end are in a great measure now fulfilled and accomplished in england's remnant : therefore we conclude and assert , that 't is lawful and warrantable , and is a duty incumbent for captivated sion and oppressed saints to stand up in gods name , and fear , and deliver themselves and that glorious gospel of the kingdom now by them declared to the world , from persecution , oppression , and that long captivity and bondage , which she hath remained in , and to break the yoke of the oppressor , which is now upon her neck according to the word and commandment of the lord , zech. . . isa. . . we are perswaded that the work of the stone is the present work of this generation , and our present work , and do accordingly exhort the saints to arise , to fall upon the enemy , p. . now these positions , conceits , and exhortations are impious and vain . for , . it is proved before , that their separation from their brethren , deserting their superiors to whom they owe subjection , their reviling and speaking evil of powers , their taking up arms against them are not honest and just means . . it is not proved that the smiting work dan. . , . is that work which they exhort to . . nor is it proved to be the work of saints as saints . . nor is there any thing they produce , that shews it to be the work of this generation . . nor any thing that shews that it is pertinent and fitly applicable to a faithful remnant now extant in england . . nor can any thing be deduced from the signs laid down in the word of god ( which they only say are in a great measure fulfilled and accomplished in england 's remnant ) for the time of the end to warrant their acting , sith no signs are sufficient for acting against plain precepts without a clear commission by extraordinary revelation or miraculous power , much lesse when they are not wholly fulfilled , and that accomplishment they are encouraged by is taken either from conjectural calculations of mystical numbers , or from the heat of some ( perhaps real saints ) excited by the oratory and confidence of their magnified teachers and leaders , opposed by other sober and considerate persons as godly , though not so hot-spirited as themselves , which heat hath cooled much , and many have been withdrawn from them , as themselves complain and experience shews , which also hath proved , that they have much deluded themselves and others who have rested upon their calculation of mystical numbers . . nor is there any thing deprehended in those , whom they call the faithful remnant in england , why they should be called to this work rather than others of former time or in other countries . for though they magnify them that are of their party as pretious saints , publick-spirited , self-deniers , illuminated ; disparaging others as formal professors , leavers of their first love , and the like , yet experience hath proved them to be but as other men , or rather many of them to have been worse than others , far from saints and a faithful remnant , and by their uncharitablenesse , rashnesse , cruelty , contempt of and disobedience to their governors , to have been more like divels than saints . . the falling off of many , who perhaps inclined to them and favoured their design , apprehending it to have been at first out of good meaning and to a good end , but since finding it to have been out of a factious spirit , and tending to blood and rapin , likely to beget ( when the rabble of loose persons , agents for rome , and men of desperate fortunes should with a shew of sanctity and zeal for christ join with them ) an horrible wasting and depraedation of mens estates ( which these men as holy as they would be taken to be , its likely aimed at , when they used those words p. . in such a practise they shall be no losers , christ will give them an hundred fold , even the spoil of their great and rich enemies , who are his opposers and in the end an eternal crown ) together with an universal enmity and dreadful anarchy , have deserted them , is a good evidence of the madnesse and impiety of their assertion and exhortation . . it is evident , that they have been deluded in their conceits , and their wild positions and attempts by the want of power and authority , which are necessary for that work , which they imagined the faithful remnant in england called to . for as the apostle saith cor. . . the kingdom of god is not in word but in power , and therefore there being no such power of calling down fire from heaven , of smiting the earth with plagues , or any other extraordinary power , such as is foretold of the two witnesses rev. . or in the prophets , judges , or apostles sent by god , we cannot take their attempts or call to be any other than heady & rash , not from gods spirit , but fond opinion of the power of their prayers , because of their vehemency ( as hackets was in q. elizabeths daies ) and satans delusion of them . . it is a very great delusion they are transported with , which makes them imagin they shall by their arms subdue all the enemies of christ , make them the footstool of christ , and take the kingdom ; which is made the work of god , when he sends the rod of his strength , in the day of his power , in the day of his wrath , psal. . , , , , . which to attempt by themselves is a most monstrous giant-like enterprise . . nor is it a small vanity and folly in them to presume to antedate the saints exaltation afore christs appearing , which is to be accomplished at his coming and in his kingdom . . it shews the want of sobriety in these men , that they abuse holy scriptures and scripture expressions , altogether impertinent to their purpose , for so evil purposes as they alledge them . as for instance in applying those words zech. . . isa. . . which are spoken of the people of the jews , and their delivery from the captivity of babylon in chaldaea , or some other dispersion proper to them , to the people of england , which were never under such captivity , making their subjection to civil rulers babylon , which is gods ordinance , and exhorting them to deliver themselves by arms in the imitation of them , who delivered themselves from exile by voluntary embracing of the allowance of cyrus and other persian kings . their claim also of the kingdom and power in these nations as the saints birthright as freemen of the common-wealth of israel and heirs of the whole world with christ , gal. . . is alike ridiculous . for they are no otherwise freemen of the common-wealth of israel , than in a metaphor taking the church of god for the israel of god , and church members freemen of the common-wealth : but this belongs to every christian , at least who is really such in the whole world , and then if freedom should infer soveraignty , they should be kings because freemen , which is a meer non sequitur . gal. . . speaks not of the inheritance of the whole world , but of the promise , which is of the spirit v. . not of the dominion of the whole world . the rest of their arguings are like these , as will appear in that which follows . § . the reasons and arguments of fifth-monarchy men for their separation and smiting civil powers , are shewed to be vain . it remains now , that i consider what i meet with in the writings i have seen for the quinto-monarchians separation from , and smiting civil powers , and acting in the behalf of the fifth-monarchy , or visible kingdom of christ on earth , as they term it , and the saints taking it into their possession . the reasons of their separation and engaging against all civil powers , are in the banner of truth displayed . p. , , , , . whereof the first is this , because the fifth kingdom , which is jesus christ's and the saints , together with the lawes and ordinances thereof , is to take place of the roman kingdom , which is the kingdom of the beast and antichrist ( with destruction thereto ) together with all the lawes and ordinances thereof , dan. . . ch . . . , . isa. . . cor. . . heb. . . answ : this is granted , and it is in part fulfilled by the setting up of christs kingdom by preaching the gospel , and is yet to be fulfilled at christs appearing ; of the former of which , dan. . . isai. . . heb. . . are meant , of the later , daniel . . , . cor. . . none of the texts term civil powers in england the kingdom of the beast and antichrist , or the roman kingdom , nor prove the fifth kingdom , is to be set up by separation from civil powers , or engaging against them ; which were to be proved , and therefore , if that which is said to be an undeniable truth among the saints , yet sith those saints are not infallible , and other saints perhaps doubt of it , as judicious as themselves , it should have been proved , and also their inference thence cleared , unless they had been resolved to deceive , or remain deceived . . because the civil power is that which doth oppose the righteous kingdom of jesus christ , not only deteining his right interest , title and birthright of inheritance from him ( as much as in them lies , which is as great an evil as if they should effectually accomplish their wicked design ) but also do make war against the lamb christ jesus , and the saints his followers , rev. . . psal. . , , . are we the friends and subjects of jesus christ ? why then are we found the friends and subjects of men ? how can this be ? can we serve christ and belial ? let saints therefore be convinced of this , namely , that the civil powers are christs enemies , it is they that labour to prevent the rise and breaking forth of that kingdom , and neer unto the time of its firm establishment , their combination will be very high & great , i saw the beast ( which all grant to be the civil , or at leastwise the civil and ecclesiastcal power ) and the kings of the earth , and their armies gathered together to make war against him that sate on the horse , and against his army , rev. . . if so , then it consequently follows , that 't is the saints great duty to withdraw from this beast , the kings of the earth their armies , strength and power , neither are they ( upon pain of his highness great displeasure ) to maintain , or help , and abet , or assist any such armies , or powers who are raised , or continued to make war against him , lest they be found traitors secretly assisting his enemies , and so fighters against his glory , power , crown and scepter . answer . this is a very deep charge , but so confused and in generals , that it serves the more fitly to hide the deceit of the accusers , it being true , dolus versatur in generalibus , their 's guile in accusations , which are only in generals tending to make any suspected , or accused , against whom they have a prejudice , and the more defficult for the accused to defend himself . if it be meant of the popish prelates and princes , or mahometan , or pagan , it is not denied ; if it be meant of the protestant , civil and ecclesiastical powers , it should be shewed , which of them , and in what facts they do those things here charged on them . perhaps they that are accused , are not guilty , or if they be guilty , yet not of such facts as amount to what is here imputed to them . sure every injurious act to a saint makes not the power an enemie to christ , nor every unrighteous law , or act , which may hinder the progress of christs kingdom , doth so oppose the righteous kingdom of christ , as to be construed , not only the deteining of his right , interest , title and birth-right of inheritance from him , but also making war against the lamb christ jesus , and the saints his followers , much less to be taken for an opposition to christs kingdom , as much as in them lies , and as great an evil , as if they should accomplish their wicked design . possibly this opposition , which they accuse powers of , is nothing else , but an opposition to the wild and frantick actings of fifth-monarchy men ; which if so , they rather are to be said to further the righteous kingdom of christ , than oppose it , and the fifth-monarchy men be more truly chargeable with the making war against the lamb christ jesus , and the saints his followers . possibly the quinto-monarchians do charge powers with these things only , out of uncertain rumors and reports , yea perhaps only out of prejudice , which is too too frequent , though it be but a divelish practice , in many that are reputed saints . surely these consulters in a secret conventicle , where the powers cannot be heard speak for themselves , are not competent accusers to arraign , and judges too to condemn their superiors , if i may not be allowed to call them their betters . this is indeed an intolerable and damnable presumption both to god and man. nor is there any thing in the texts that is for their purpose , the former , revel . . . being meant only of those kings who received power as kings one hour with the beast , and give their power and strength to the beast , which sure cannot be meant of the protestant princes , or prelates , or powers , it being expresly declared by the apostles , acts . , , . to have been fulfilled in the conspiracy of herod , and pontius pilate , the gentiles and princes of israel , putting christ to death . the other text , revel . . . is confessedly meant of christs enemies that shall be near the time of the rise of the kingdom of christ ; and therefore is madly applied to a duty of non-assisting , or ressisting present powers . it 's against all rules , but those of frayes , when tinkers and pedlers , and the rabble rout fall to fighting , to strike richard for robert , to oppose the present powers in this generation , the civil and ecclesiastical , because the beast and the kings of the earth , and their armies shall be gathered together , to make war against him that sate on the horse , and his army . no marvel men that thus argue , should hate lawyers and universities , which would hisse out such law and logick ; no marvel godly brethren desert them , when they vent such things , as befit devils rather than saints , and better agree with the doctrine of hell , than of the church of christ ; to whom that may be applied , which christ saith , revel . . . i know the blasphemy of them which say they are jewes , and are not , but are the synagogue of satan . as for us who have not known the depths of satan as they speak , we judge we may be friends and subjects of men , even such as do oppose the righteous kingdom of jesus christ ; if we do not concur with them , nor love , nor favour , nor yeild obedience to them in that opposition , we may be subject to them in the things of men , though we oppose them according to our duty , as did the three children , dan. . , , . in the things of god , when they act contrary thereto . nor need we fear to be charged with serving christ and belial , or being found secret , or open traitors to christ , while we assist them in matters of civil government , and good order of churches , though they be adversaries to some truths we hold , or some practises , which we conceive , and perhaps are , our duty . the power is not belial alwaies , when those that have the power be men of belial : a believing servant may serve with a good conscience an unbelieving master : enough hath been said of this before . i am ashamed that any that hath the name of a protestant , or saint , should thus argue , and it is altogether inexcusable in these men , who acknowledge in this their writing that the persecuting powers in the apostles dayes , were the ordinance of god , to which christians should be subject , rom. . . . say they , because the very life , well-being , rest and happiness of the saints both in the external and internal sence consisteth , and is laid and wrapt up in the kingdom of christ , which is granted ; they add , and not in this kingdom of antichrist , and babylonish state , which is a filthy and polluted thing , heb. . , . pet. . . but how doth it appear that the present civil powers are the kingdom of antichrist , and babylonish state , or that owning or assisting them is resting in such a kingdom or state ? sure heb. . , . pet. . . there 's not a word to prove that , which they take for granted ; yea , we may perhaps better retort this reason , and say , it is the happiness of saints to separate from these fifth-monarchy-men , who , instead of the kingdom of christ , would bring us into the kingdom of antichrist and babylonish state , by inciting us to separate from , and smite civil powers , and charge them as denying the power and authority of christ ( who would have to caesar the things of caesar given ) even from this their own speech of forbidding us to be under the power of men , which is , gods ordinance , rom. . . and though the followers of christ ought to travel and cry , and be restless , until the man-child be brought forth to rule the nations , and until zions righteousness go forth as brightness , and her salvation as a lamp that burneth , mic. . . isa. . . &c. yet are they not to give their goods , or to use their endeavours to further the quinto-monarchians project : nor do the words , micah . . warrant them to relinquish powers which be over them ; but we may justly exhort all holy persons in the words of moses , numb . . , . get you up from about the tabernacle of the quinto-monarchians , who are seditious against their governors , as corah , dathan , and abiram were , depart , i pray you , from the tents of these wicked men ( though pretended saints ) and touch nothing of theirs , lest ye be consumed in all their sins . . say they , because 't is prophesied of the saints , that they shall take the kingdom , power and dominion from the beast , dan. . . . we therefore conclude , that 't is a duty incumbent upon the saints of the later daies , to endeavour the translation of the kingdom and power , from the beast , to jesus christ : else how shall they fulfil the word of god , which is a sure word of prophecy ? now how can saints be instrumental in this great work , except they first perform this act of separation ? which being done renders them in a great measure ready for that which follows . answ : it is prophesied of the saints of the most high , that they shall take the kingdom , and possess the kingdom for ever , even for ever and ever ; but it is not said , that the kingdom they shall take shall be the visible kingdom on earth , after or towards the time of the end of the fourth , or roman monarchy , or that the saints are the gentile saints , or the gentile saints of this age , or this island , or of the city of london , or that they shall take it from the beast , or that the beast is the civil power of england , or that they shall take it by their separation , or smiting work , or that the saints shall take away the dominion of the horn to consume , and to destroy it unto the end , by some fighting act of theirs , or any such , as the quinto-monarchians design . but in the reading and meaning of those words , there is so much difficulty , and uncertainty , that no sober person would ever have made such an inference as these men make from it . for first , it is not very certain whether the fourth beast be the kingdom of the seleucidae , or the roman kingdom , though i incline to the later . . it is uncertain whether the little horn be antiochus epiphanes , or the roman papacy , though i incline to the later . . nor is it certain , that it is to be read , the saints of the most high shall take the kingdom ( which i follow with our interpreters , the same persons being to take the kingdom who are to possess it for ever ) and not , as some read , they shall take the kingdom of the saints of the most high ; meaning , the four beasts shall take the kingdom of the jewes . . nor is it certain , that v. . when it is said , they shall take away his dominion , is meant of the saints . for , . it may be read , as junius reads it , impersonally auferetur , it shall be taken away , not they shall take away . . nor is it likely , that this should be attributed to the gentile , or jewish saints . . because it is an act beyond the power of saints to take away the dominion , to consume , and to destroy it to the end , it being the same with the slaying of the beast , the destroying of his body and giving it to the burning flame , v. , which is to be conceived to be done by the fiery stream , which issued and came forth from before the ancient of daies , v. . and therefore by the immediate hand of god , or his mighty angels . and in all likelihood it is then when he shall put down all rule and all authority and power , cor. . . which is made the act of god the father , v. . . this is confirmed , because it is said , but the judgment shall sit , and they shall take his dominion away : now the sitting of the judgment was , when the books were opened , the thrones were cast down , and the ancient of daies did sit , v. , . which the comparing it with revel . . . doth evince to be at the last judgment . . this is also further proved , in that the dominion given to the son of man after the destruction of the fourth beast is said to be v. . . when one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven , and came to the ancient of daies , and they brought him near before him : which is to be understood , as mr. mede proves in his answer to mr. hayne , ( and then the taking away shall be by christ ) of the time , when he shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire , thess. . , . and shall consume the wicked one with the spirit of his mouth , and shall destroy him with the brightness of his coming , thess. . . which is a work beyond the power of saints with bodily weapons , or any might of theirs to effect . . where it is said , dan. . . that the people of the saints of the most high shall have the kingdom , it is said , it shall be given them , not , they shall acquire it , or take it by their forcible or any other acting . and therefore it is a most vain conceit , that this thing is to be done by the saints endeavour , or that they are to fulfil the word of god , or to imagine , the word of god could not be fulfilled without them , or they could be instrumental in this great work , or that their act of separation from civil powers were necessary to it , or it or their smiting work did render them in any measure ready for that which follows . there are other uncertainties concerning the saints , whether they be not peculiarly the jewish people , or the kingdom taken , the spiritual kingdom of christ , which the hebrew christians received , heb. . . of which i have spoken somwhat before , and now omit that which i have said , being sufficient to shew the futility of this fourth reason . . their fifth reason is as vain as the former , yet because it is the engine , whereby perhaps well-meaning and tender consciences are frighted or drawn into their way , it is necessary to be considered . because , say they , there are dreadful judgements pronounced in particular against those that shall be found owning , submitting unto , and supporting of the civil power in the daies of the lords more glorious manifestation of himself , and when he gives notice & warning to all , of those judgments which then he is about to bring upon his enemies , & by his instrument proclaims the overthrow and down-fall of babylon , rev. . , , , , . if any man worship the beast and his image , and receive his mark in his forehead , or in his hand , the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of god , &c. and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone , which is the plague and pains of hell. now we apprehend that this scripture will be fulfilled upon those who shall be found worshippers of the beast , &c. in the last ages of the world , and not long before our king begin to take the power : for ( mark it ) upon the rise of the first beast rev. . , . with seven heads and ten horns , ten crowns , &c. all the world wondred after the beast , v. . or as in v. . all that dwell upon the earth , whose names are not written in the lambs book of life , worship the dragon and the beast , v. . hitherto there 's no mention of image and mark ; but upon the rise of the second beast that comes out of the earth , and has two horns like a lamb , &c. v. . the case is changed and grows more difficult and dangerous , for he doth not only v. . cause the earthlings to worship the first beast , but in processe of time ( after he hath deceived them by his great wonders and miracles ) he makes them that dwell on the earth make an image to the first beast , into which he infuses life , and causes all that will not worship that image to be killed ; proceeding further also , he causes all small and great , rich and poor , free and bond to receive a mark in their right hand or forehead , and no man is permitted to buy or sell save he that has the mark , or the name of the beast , or the number of his name , v. , , , . now by this time we are come somewhat near the end of his reign and the beginning of christs kingdom . now then we observe from hence , . that the image , mark , name , and number of the beast , are of a later date than the first beast , and his ten horns , and so consequently men in former ages and generations might have worshipped the beast , and yet not his image , nor receive his mark , &c. . by how much the nearer his end is , by so much the more dangerous it is to worship him , &c. . that those who in the last daies near unto christs coming , shall have all these marks , denotations , and characters found upon them ( that is to say , those that worship the beasts , and ) ( mark the emphasis of the words ) his image , and receive his mark in his forehead , or right hand shall drink the wine of gods wrath , and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone : so that we conceive 't is the duty of saints to consider these things , and to separate from the beast , his image , mark , number , &c. and to have no relation , affection , subjection to the beast , and civil power , or any of its appertainers , though they lose their lives for it . and then adds encouragements to adventure the losse of life , rather than incur the danger of gods wrath , with assurance of glory to such , as in doing that , which they make the saints duty , lose their lives , which is a device too like that of the jesuites , when they animate their assassins to regicide by promise of absolution , merit , martyrdom and heaven . answ , i should not think it worth while to make any answer to this reason , which proves that which is granted , that the worshipping the beast and his image , the receiving the mark of the beast in his forehead or in his hand , or the name of the beast , or number of his name , or the mark of his name makes men obnoxious to gods wrath , and proves not at all that which is to be proved , that to have relation , affection , subjection to civil power or any of its appertainers is to worship the beast and his image , to receive the mark of the beast in the forehead or hand , to receive the mark of his name , his name , or the number of his name , but that i find this is made commonly the pretence of separations of every party , and their oppositions thereupon . thus not only the protestants separate from the papists , counting subjection to the pope receiving the mark of the beast ; but also among protestants dissenters term the practice they dislike and are averse from , the mark of the beast ; whence , especially the common sort , who have most heat and least light , as they are prejudiced , so they inveigh against their opposites as the beast , and the owning them as the re-receiving his mark . so brownists count any acknowledgment of bishops , receiving ordination from them , using the cross , surplice , kneeling and such ceremonies as they injoin , going to common-prayer , paying tythes , being of a national or parish church , with many more things , which they except against in prelatical , yea and presbyterian and congregational government , the worshiping the beast and receiving his mark : which being got once into the heads of the common sort , who usually talk much against that which they understand little , inflames them with hatred against those they judge to be the beast , and that which they think is his mark ; so as that without measure they inveigh against them , delighting in satyrical scotts and jests put upon them , in tales that disparage them , are averse from any conference with them , or hearing of them speak , and altogether irreconcileable to them . this fashion which heretofore was only used against ecclesiasticks , the fifth-monarchy-men it seems have here taken up against the civil powers as useful for their demagogical design , to affright the people and to hold them to their party . but to shew the vanity of it , it is to be observed , that they apply the threatnings rev. . , , , , . to the worshipping of the second beast described revel . . . and to the times near unto christs coming ; now that beast by all the descriptions of it appears not to have gotten his power by the sword , as civil powers have , but by deceit , as by pretended miracles v. . . whence he is termed the false prophet , rev. . , . which stirred up the kings of the earth to make war against the rider on the white horse , rev. . , . the whore with whom the kings of the earth committed sornication , revel . . , . which being plainly expressed to be rome or at rome v. . cannot be applyed with any shew or colour to the civil powers of england , or other countries besides rome , especially the protestants , they being no prophets , nor using any arts or devices to draw men to the worship of the first beast , or dragon , or to set up any forreign power , but seeking to uphold their own civil power , and requiring the subjects to renounce the popes supremacy , and power to depose them ▪ and therefore it is a most impudent false accusation to make the protestant civil powers to be either the beast , or the kings that commit fornication with the whore , or the having relation , affection , subjection to them and their appertainers the worshiping the beast or his image , or the receiving his mark , name or number of his name . but they say , . we might also further add , because the civil power is that which enforces and compels the consciences and spirits of men to the antichristian forms and worship of babylon : accordingly the great harlot , or mystery of iniquity ( i. e. antichristian worship and church state ) rides upon the beast , rev. . . that is , she has the preheminence , and makes the beast use his sword for her advantage , upon pain of excommunication , curses , and such like baubles . answ. the beast which carrieth the woman , rev. . , . is said to have seven heads and ten horns , and so is not the beast with two horns like a lamb , rev. . . but the first beast , rev. . . of which they say , that the image , mark , name , and number of the beast are of a later date than the first beast and his ten horns , and so consequently men in former generations might have worshiped the beast , and yet not his image , nor receive his mark , &c. but if the beast might be then worshiped , then might the beast be worshiped , when the dragon gave him his seat and power and great authority , rev. . . at which time they term the power of rome the ordinance of hell , p. . and if then the civil power of rome might be owned as the ordinance of god , rom. . . when they compelled men to worship their idols ; in like manner the civil powers now should be owned as gods ordinance , though they should compell men to the antichristian forms and worship of babylon , which though idolatrous are not worse than the pagan worship , to which the persecuting emperors did compell the christians . but however , this reason may give some colour for separating from those kings and states which use the roman inquisition , and force their subjects to go to the masse , and to worship the consecrated wafer cake , which they call the hoste , and the body of christ , and to acknowledge the pope as the head of the universal church , & the roman church as the mother of all churches , which may be truly termed the antichristian forms and worship of babylon , the mystery of iniquity , the antichristian worship and church-state : yet this doth not at all reach the protestant kings and civil powers , who do not enforce and compell men to these antichristian forms and worship of babylon , nor support the great harlot , nor let her have the preheminence , nor use their sword for her advantage , nor regard her excommunication , curses , and such like baubles , but use their power and sword against her , deride her excommunications , curses , indulgences , and threats , and urge their subjects to disclaim her jurisdiction and worship . if any say that the civil powers in england do compel men to be under diocesan bishops and priests , who have their succession and ordination from rome , and to be present at the common prayer , which is nothing but the masse translated out of latine into english , and to be members of a national church , which is antichristian ; i answer , that neither do the bishops derive their succession from rome , nor is their consecration as the roman , with any oath to the pope , though mr. francis mason have pleaded against champney the validity of their succession by the ancient canons , which the papists allow ; nor are the ministers ordained by the bishops , priests to offer sacrifice for the quick and dead , as popish priests ; nor hath the common prayer book , the sacrifice properly so called , the adoration of the host , invocation of saints , and other rites which make the masse abominable , nor is the church of england made national as subject to the pope or communicating with the roman church in the trent doctrine , and therefore are not chargeable with the antichristian forms , church state and worship of babylon , nor the civil powers , which require conformity thereto , to be judged to compel mens persons to antichristianism . but perhaps we shall find mr. tillinghast arguing to better purpose . that which i meet with , as tending to the justifying of the quinto-monarchians way is in the . of the . sermons published since his death . p. . of the . edition ; in which he tels his auditors , that he did conceive it to be one great article of his and their faith , that the work that god doth call his children to at this day ( and he calls upon them from heaven to attend to ) had been the work of christs visible kingdom over the world ; which he takes for granted , nor in that do i at present oppose him , though i do not assert such a visible kingdom , as he believes ; nor do i gainsay his distinction . p. . of two parts of christs kingdom , one of the stone , the other of the mountain , used before by mr. mede ; but deny , that in the kingdom of the stone , the saints are imployed in a glorious work for christ to pluck down all , that jesus christ when he comes may have his enemies his footstool , and that the command is , beat your plow-shares into swords , intimating that in the time of this kingdom , there shall be wonderful use of swords , weapons of war. p. . but that which i oppose is his speech . p. . and though this stone , dan. . . fundamentally is christ himself , yet considered as smiting the great image , it can be no other but christ mystical , in his members ; and the cutting out of this stone , cannot be meant as some would have it , of christs first coming , for these reasons ; first because the kingdom of the stone , it doth arise in the dayes of the ten antichristian kings ; and in the dayes of these kings shall the god of heaven set up a kingdom . what kings are these ? these kings are not the four monarchies , for the kingdom of god was not set up in the time of those monarchies , but in the fourth and last only ; and here is spoken of kings in the plural number ; those kings therefore , are the ten antichristian kings , which are set forth by ten toes , where the work begins , and the first stroak is struck ; and are called the ten horns in another place ; and in dan. . those ten horns are interpreted ten kings , and in the time of those kings the stone is cut out , they are the ten antichristian kings ; and if so , the stone cannot be so early cut out , as the birth of christ , for that was long before the ten antichristian kings had being , or existence in the world , therefore the kingdom of the stone must be cut out later . answ : these kings cannot be meant of any other than the kings and kingdoms , which the kingdom of the stone shall break in pieces , which are . v. . the iron , the brass , the clay , the silver , and the gold , and not the toes only ; and therefore must be meant of the four monarchies , and not only of the ten antichristian kings . and in the days must be understood synecdochically one of them , as when jephthab is said , judg. . to be buried in the cities of gilead , that is , in one of them , jonah was gon down into the sides of the ship , jonah . . that is , one of the sides ; and of which mr. mede in his answer to mr. hayn , hath given more instances , and proved it to be meant of the last of those kings , which he determines to be the roman , against mr. haynes holding it to be the kings of alexanders successors , and that it must needs be referred to christs incarnation , or preaching , which he shewes in his exercitation on mark . . to have been by christ himself signifyed , when he said , the time is fulfilled , that is , the time foretold , dan. . . and the kingdom of god is at hand , which the god of heaven will set up . the plural number notes not the ten horns , for these kings can be meant of no other than the four monarchies , or kings ; which are mentioned in the plural number , not because the kingdom was set up in all their dayes , but in the dayes of the last , into which the power of the rest came , and by smiting of it they were all broken to pieces . secondly , saith he , because daniel doth not see the stone to smite , until such time as he had a view and representation of the great image in all the parts of it before him : he saw it all come forth and exist in its state , before the stone smites ; therefore i conclude that the cutting out of the stone , was not until every part of it was come forth , and was in being in the world . but if so be we conceive the cutting out of the stone to be as high as christs coming ; then was the stone cut out long before the last part of the great image ( the iron and the clay ) was in being ; and if the stone was cut out so long before , then did the stone lye still , and not do its work for many hundred years , for the very first stroke the stone strikes , is upon the feet of iron and clay , which it could not do before they were in being . answ : if the argument be good from the seeing together of all the parts of the image to the coexistence of the things represented , then all the four monarchies should exist together , because they were represented and viewed together , which is absurd . 't is true , the stone was not cut out till all the monarchies were in being , yet it was cut out afore every state of the last monarchy was in being . the stone is said to smite the image in the feet , not because it began not to smite till the last state and period of the fourth-monarchy : but because the former monarchies were brought under the power of the fourth , and rested upon the fourth as the head and other parts of the body do upon the feet , and so by smiting it , the whore is cast down . if this reason were good , christs kingdom should not begin till every part , or state of the fourth-monarchy were existent , and then the saints should not begin to smite till the existence of the last of the ten kings , which is unknown to them , and then he could not conclude it must be the work of this generation . thirdly , saith he , because daniels smiting stone that he speaks of in the . ch . and his ancient of daies siting , that he speaks of in the . ch . they must of necessity be one and the same , they are contemporary , for they do one and the same work ; the very work that is done by the one is done by the other . the stone smites the toes of the fourth monarchy , and daniels ancient of daies sitting , casts down the thrones , and judges and destroys the fourth beast : here 's one and the same work , therefore they are one and the same time , the time of the cutting out of the stone , is the same with the time of the sitting of the ancient of daies . now if they are the same in time , the stone cannot be cut out so high as christs first coming , for the ancient of daies sitting it's clear it is not till the ending time of the fourth monarchy ; then comes the ancient of daies and sits in judgment , and casts down and destroys the beast , and not before ; therefore the cutting out of the stone cannot be the first time , but at the close of the fourth monarchy . answ. the casting down of the thrones is not the putting down of the thrones of the ten kings , but in allusion to the manner of settling or placing seats for the sanhedrin to sit on , it is said the thrones were set ( as it is observed by mr. mede comment . on re● . . ) and the ancient of daies did sit , or v. . but the judgment shall sit , which is the same with rev. . . and i saw thrones and they sat upon them , and judgment was given unto them . now the time of the sitting dan. . . is the time , when one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven , and came to the ancient of days , and they brought him near before him : and there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom , that all people , nations and languages should serve him , which to be referred to the time of christs second coming when all rule and authority & power shall be put down , and every knee shall bow to him , is intimated by our lord christ himself allusively to this of daniel expressing his second coming by the coming in a cloud , luke . . in the clouds of heaven matth. . . if then the stone be not cut out till then , it will not be cut out till christs second coming , and so no smiting work till then , which is absurd and contrary to this authors own tenet . but neither is it true , that the ancient of days sitting , and the stones smiting do one and the same work , if by the same work be meant the same numerical action , the agents being not the same , the sitting is of the ancient of daies , who is not the same with the stone , but he that cuts out the stone , or the god that sets up the kingdom : if it be meant of the same work that is the same event , fact or accomplishment , then there 's no necessity , that they should be contemporary , that is in the same age , as the building of the temple was the same work , yet not the time of laying the foundation and finishing it the same ; the raising up the fourth monarchy was the same work , yet not the several governments of it contemporary , and in like manner the demolishing of it is the same work , yet part of it to be done by christ at his first coming and part at his second , and so the cutting out of the stone may be at his first coming and the sitting of the ancient of daies at his second , and it 's not necessary that the fifth-monarchy should begin at the later end of the fourth monarchy , or the smiting work be the overturning the thrones of the kings to be performed by the saints as chief instruments in the management thereof , nor doth it follow of necessity there must be such a thing , as the civil and military power to be in the hands of the saints , and that before the day of christs appearance for the performance of that work , which is the thing he contends for , and endeavours to prove by these eight reasons . first , because the work of breaking the great image is done by the stone cut out of the mountain ; it 's not done by mountains considered as mountains , it 's not done by nations considered as nations , kingdoms considered as kingdoms : for then it would be done by the mountain ; but it 's done by a stone cut out of the mountain , by a people pickt out by god himself out of the nations and kingdoms of this world , formed and united together by god himself , which shall fall upon the great image and break it to pieces ; i'ts these that do this work ; and further it 's cut out without hands , dan. . . . that is without worldly powers , but more immediately by god without the hands of men . it s clear it shall be by the saints as chief , principal and leading instruments , because they are called the stone in relation to the lord jesus christ called a stone , of whose nature and image the saints are partakers , not so the nations between whom and christ there 's no agreement . answ. this reason proves not the saints to be meant by the stone , nor that they are to break the image , but the contrary ; for they are not cut out with●ut hands , but are begotten by men in the ordinary way of generation , nor , if this authors way should be meant of smiting the image by civil or military power , should they break the image without hands , but with hands : not is there a word in the text that shews the saints to be meant by the stone , much lesse the saints of the later times of the fourth monarchy or of this nation , or that it excludes kings , who may be saints and christs instruments to break the image , for they may be saints ; and if not , instruments of christ , as cyrus was , to break the babyloman monarchy , and to restore the jews , and therefore there is no consequence in this reasoning , which is out of figurative expressions to proper , though the thing be not interpreted so , but only imagined by this arguer without any cogent reason : it 's done by a stone cut out of the mountain , therefore by a people pickt out by god out of the nations , for neither doth the text expound mountain , by the nations and kingdoms of this world , nor by the stone a people pickt out , but the stone may be meant of christ personal , or his kingdom , as the text explains it , and he be cut out , that is , formed without hands in his mothers womb , as when david said , he was curiously wrought in the lower parts of the earth , psal. . . and the kingdom cut out of the mountain , that is , set up among men without hands by the god of heaven , by the preaching of the gospel and by the power of his spirit , zech. . . the . reason from , dan , . , , , , , is the same with the . in the banner displayed , and is fully answered before in this section . the . reason is , that generation of men shall destroy the kingdom of the beast , in the time when his kingdom is to be destroyed , that did bear witness against the beast for christ , all the time his kingdom stood . this is grounded upon revel . . which tels us that the witnesses for dayes prophefied , in the end of this time they are kil'd by the beast , they rise up again , and rising up they knock the beast down , for immediately thereupon the tenth part of the city fell , and there was a great earth-quake , & there were slain of men seven thousand , and great fear fell upon all the rest , and they gave glory to the god of heaven , this is not done by worldly powers , but the witnesses , therefore they that have born witness against the beast , shall give the deadly blow to the beast . answ. if this reason were good , it should be done by the saints , that have been , not by those that shall be , by them risen again , not to be born hereafter , by them that have born witness all the time the beasts kingdom stood , not by them , that only stand up near the time of the end , it shall be done by supernatural , or prophetical power , not by civil and military , which this author contends for . in a word , in all this there is nothing but uncertainty concerning these witnesses who they are , whether already existent , or future , the beast meant , the time of their prophesying , and the event , and the manner and means of its accomplishing , and therefore this proof is ignoti per ignotius , of a thing unknown by that which is more unknown , which is vain . fourthly , saith he , the angel that enlightens the earth with the glory of the truth of the lord , that is , that angel , or instrument that shall ruin babylon , rev. . . but the earth hath not been enlightened with the glory of god , by the generation of the world , but the world hath been enlightened by the generation of the faithful , that god hath revealed his truth to , and this angel that enlighteneth the earth with the glory of god , gives the deadly blow unto the beast , there where light comes forth , god will carry on the work by those hands . answ. the angel is another angel , therefore not the generation of the faithful , coming down from heaven , therefore not a man , having great power , therefore not using humane weapons , enlightens the earth with his glory , it is not said , with the truth or glory of god , nor enlightening men by revealing gods truth to them , nor that he gives the deadly blow to the beast , but only that he cried mightily with a strong voyce , saying , babylon is fallen , therefore this proves not , that a company of private saints in the ending time of the fourth-monarchy shall destroy it by a military , or civil power , yea if where light comes forth , god will carry on the work by those hands , all the preachers of the truth shall be instrumental to the ruin of babylon , and that by preaching , not a company of private saints by fighting . the fifth reason from revel . . . is fully answered before , sect . . the . is , the work of god against rome , shall be so mannaged as there may be singing of hallelujabs in the churches , for the carrying it on : this is clear from revel . . . but now if this should be done only by the clattering of a company of nations falling upon the beast , and ruining him , what singing would there be in the churches for this ? what would there be more in this , then in the work of cyrus destroying babylon , or in alexanders destroying the medes and persians monarchy , or in the romans destroying the grecians monarchy ? for that was a part of gods decree , as well as this , what should the people therefore now sing hallelujahs more for , more than in those times ? but because of the difference of the instruments , things done in a more holy sanctified way to a more pure end ; and there shall be more of the image of god appear upon those that shall do this work now , and therefore they shall sing hallelujahs ; otherwise , the work did not go beyond the work that had been done before . answ. when the work of destroying babylon was done by cyrus , there was singing of hallelujahs , as was foretold , jerem. . . and that because it was the work of god , who ever were the instruments . and indeed that is the reason expresly given , revel . . , . not this , which is here imagined contrary to the express text , revel . . , . yea it is more joyous to the saints , and more redounds to gods glory , that he ruines babylon , by those that did support her , as that by death , procured by satan , god destroyed him that had the power of death . and this was gods way in destroying the former monarchies , and therefore is more likely to be his way in destroying this , not a work by other meanes then the former , though exceeding , or going beyond it in the conspicuity of it , and consequents of it , and therefore occasioning more praise to god , and not for the holiness of the instruments , which the text mentions not . seventhly , saith he , the kingdom of the stone , when it comes to smite rome , then shall be in it a resemblance ( as it were ) of the reign of christ and the glory of the kingdom of the mountain , therefore it is said in v. . for the lord god omnipotent raigneth , which could not be said if the work were done by a company of carnal nations ; and yet this is before the end , before christs coming : for after this appearance , we have the bride making her self ready , and the kings of the earth come together to destroy the bride preparing for her husband , and then you have christ coming forth in his fury , destroying his enemies and rescuing his bride : but before that day there shall be such a glorious appearance in the world , and such power in the hands of the people of god , that it shall be said when men look upon it , the lord god omnipotent raigneth , the lord jesus christ , who is king of the world , and king of saints raigneth ; therefore it shall be done by saints as leading instruments . answ. such an acclamation is usual upon any glorious work of god , as exod. . . and in the psalms often , and therefore it is but a vain conceit , as if that speech could not be used unlesse the saints were leading instruments . in this book of the revelation we have acclamations where no act is expressed of the saints , as rev. . , , . and . , , , . and . . and . , . and , . and . , . and . , . 't is granted that before christs coming upon the ruin of babylon there will be occasion of the acclamation rev. . . but not because private saints shall destroy babylon by their smiting work , but because gods power and might is thereby manifested , and the dominion of god will be thereby promoted . eighthly , saith he , look through the old and new testament , where ever we have a description of the persons that shall do the glorious work of god at the last day , and you shall ever find them described and characterized as saints , as zech. . against thy sons o greece , that is , against the turkish power . obad. . . when all his enemies are brought down , and become his footstool , then shall he come forth , and take the kingdom , and the kingdom shall be the lords ; sit thou at my right hand until i make thine enemies thy footstool : then the lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of zion , rule thou in the midst of thine enemies , there 's the coming forth of christ , when his enemies by his saints are made his foot-stool . micah . . , . thou shalt beat in pieces many people . jacob is his battle ax , jer. . . rev. . , . rev. . , , , , . answ. psal. . , . it is not said , by the saints christs enemies are made his foot-stool , nor jer. . . is meant of jacob , but of cyrus , or the king of babylon , as mr. gataker in his annot. zech. . . obad. . . micah . . , . if meant of a time to come , is to be verified of the jews and not of gentile saints , rev. . , , , , . if the same with revel . . . is meant also of the jews , if of others , neither there , nor rev. . . is any act ascribed to them , but acclamation to god for his work : why the seven angels rev. . . should be any other than holy spirits i see no reason , and therefore this reason is impertinent , and none of them prove , that which he undertook . to the objection from rev. . . that the horns shall do it , he answers , the meaning is this , that the ten horns as conquered to the lamb , and the power of them being gotten into the power of the lamb , so shall the horns be turned against the whore , which we cannot see at present . i reply , this is enough to prove that they be not saints as saints that shall burn the whores flesh with fire , that saints shall not do it without kings , and therefore are not to attempt it without them , much less to destroy them , that they are rather to serve them , and to acknowledge what they have done , and may see , though they see not all done they would have done . if for present they see not the horns ruled by the lamb ( the seeing of which only prejudice hinders ) neither do we see such saintship in the quinto-monarchians as by their own rules should qualify them for the smiting work , or setting up christs kingdom , but rather such a spirit as tends to ruine it . to the objection from john . . he saith , my kingdom is not of this world , that is , of this monarchy , all the world being put for the roman monarchy , luke . . whereto i reply , christ saith his kingdom is not of this world in opposition to from above , as is manifest from john . . and the phrase not from hence , and his proof from his servants not fighting for his rescue , which is sufficient to shew that his kingdom should not be from his servants , nor by fighting , nor is the particle now used to intimate that either his kingdom should be from hence , or his servants fight , but only is used to declare his present state without intimation of any thing concerning the future , as john . , &c. he then adds something about the signs of the nearness of the kingdom , and omitting the computation of the time from the numbers left us in scripture ( which i have considered before sect . . ) there are ten signs set down of the nearness of it taken from accidents and observations of men favourers of his opinion and opponents of it , with his judgment concerning them , and their signification , none of which , but may happen , and have happened concerning other things , which have failed , and been found mistakes in the conclusion ; and being not certain evidences , or prognosticks as miracles , prophesying and such like signs , i therefore let them pass as things either false , and perhaps unrighteous censures , or uncertain , and unfit for mine or any mans examination or judgment but gods only , and contenting my self to have demonstrated that the holy scriptures yield them no warrant to separate from or engage against the civil powers set over them , i shall commend this work to the lord for his blessing , praying god to teach those who have been or are led away with the quinto-monarchians opinion , to prove all things , and to hold fast that which is good , thes. . . finis . errata . pag. . l. . r. and god's , p. . l. . d. to , p. . l. . r. judge , p. . l. . r. to determin , p. . l. . r. dan. . p. . l. . r , then , p. . l. . r. our , p. . l. . r. heat , p. . l. . r. it is , p. . l. . d. time , p. . l. . r. and agreement , l. . r. danger , p. . l. . r. oppose , p. . l. . r. an , l. . r. spiritual , p. . l. . r. reins , p. . l. . r. there 's , p. . l. . these words are to be inserted , who oppose the beast , if the beast be the pope and papacy . the next psal. . , , . cannot be meant of the protestant princes or prelates , p. . l. . r. whole . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e see dr. homes resur . reveal . lib . ch . . ●ee bp. ●aveant's ●eterin . . p. an●rew's esp . ad ●ellarm . polog . . p. . præcursor, or, a forerunner to a large review of the dispute concerning infant-baptism wherein many things both doctrinall and personal are cleared, about which mr. richard baxter, in a book mock-titled plain scripture-proof of infants church-membership and baptism hath darkned the truth / by john tomes. tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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[ ], p. printed by h. hils and are to be sold by h. crips and lod. lloid, t. brewster and g. moule, london : . reproduction of original in the bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng baxter, richard, - . -- plain scripture proof of infants church-membership and baptism. infant baptism. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion praecursor : or a forerunner to a large review of the dispute concerning infant-baptism ; wherein many things both doctrinall and personal are cleared : about which mr. richard baxter in a book mock-titled [ plain scripture-proof of infants church-membership and baptism ] hath darkned the truth . by john tombs b. d. london , printed by h. hils , and are to be sold by h. crips and lod. lloid in popes-head ally , t. brewster and g. moule at the three bibles at the west end of pauls , . to the right honourable bulstrode whitlock , richard keble , serjeants at law , john lisle esq lords commissioners for the great seal of england , major general thomas harrison , edmund prideaux esquire , atturney general for the state of england , denis bond esquire . through the influence of the favour of many of you as instruments of the lord for my liberty to preach the gospel and peace at the temple in london , i enjoyed sundry years in the late tempestuous times an unexpected calm , until a new storm arising by reason of the violence of men bent to bear down dissenters from the determinations of the assembly of divines at westminster , by reason of the publishing my examen of mr. marshals sermon for infant-baptism , i was necessitated to leave the harbour i had at the temple , and to remove a great distance from london , to the place of my nativity , in which i hoped for a setlement , which i found not . for partly by the states selling my lands out of which my maintenance there arose , and partly by reason of the alienating of mens spirits from me through the distance between me and the antagonist i here answer , i was in a great measure frustrated of my hopes . but it pleased the lord nevertheless to order things so , that by the means of some of you as patrons , and others as helpers , i enjoy a comfortable supply for my maintenance , together with that which is dearer to me , the liberty of holding forth the truth of the gospel , where i laboured many years heretofore . in testimony of my thankful acknowledgement of that ample favour which it pleased some of you to vouchsafe me by your appearing for me , and bounty to me at the temple , and testimonial of me at my departure thence , the readiness of you all either to invest , or to setle me in the maintenance i now enjoy , & that there may be something in your hands to vindicate me from injurious aspersions , under which my self with the truth i avouch do suffer much , i humbly presume to present this writing to your hands , and praying that you may honor god in your places who hath raised you up to do him service , i subscribe my self your honours humble and real servant , john tombes . lemster , december . . to the dearly beloved , my auditors formerly the inhabitants of bewdly in worcestershire . the fame of the dispute between mr. baxter and my self at your chappel , jan. . . was at first spread over the land by mr. bs abusive passage in his epistle before his book of the saints everlasting rest : to which i opposed an answer in my farewell-speech to you , and that it might be communicated to the nation printed it with some additions in my antidote , which i intended in the first place for your use . after this mr. b. printed a large book for infants-baptism , framed in manner of a sermon as intended , and accordingly tendred in an epistle to you . in which how injuriously he hath dealt with me , and how weakly he hath opposed the truth i taught you , will appear in part by reading this forerunner to the rest of the answer that is to come after . i did presently upon my first reading of mr. bs. book in a set speech briefly shew you mr. bs. grounds , and the reason why they were unsatisfying . yet neither my antidote nor that speech do i find much regarded by many of you : nor perhaps will this writing take much with you . however i have conceived it necessary to tender this writing to you , that it might thereby appear , how vain the excessive boastings of mr. bs book have been ; how justifiable their receiving the truth , who have yielded to it is ; and how inexcusable they are that persist in mr. bs. way . what ever you think or speak of me , yet i do , and shall study your good , and committing my labours for you and among you , to the blessing of the lord , i rest , your loving countrey-man and servant in christ , john tombes . lemster oct. . . the contents . sect. i. of the necessity and occasion of this present writing . sect. ii. that the title of mr. baxters book , is a mock-title . sect. iii. mr. baxters citations from fathers , advantage him not . sect. iv. mr. baxters citations from my writings , advantage him not . sect. v. mr. baxter unduly suggests many things in his epistles . sect. vi. the chief points of mr. baxters book are very briefly touched . sect. vii . many personal occurrences are cleered : by relating of which mr. baxter hath ( in his history ) sought to create prejudice against me . sect. viii . more personal matters , which the history of mr. baxter hath made crooked , are set straight . sect. ix . in my alleging peter de bruis and others as antipaedobaptists . years ago , is no untrath . sect. x. that mr. baxters charge of accusing and of disputing my children out of the church and covenant of christ , is vain ; and some inquiry is made , how they are in covenant . sect. xi . about mr. baxters . texts , urged impertinently to prove infants visible church-membership . sect. xii . that mr. baxter unjustly chargeth me to be a sect-master . sect. xiii . that it is not a right way to judge of the truth of doctrine , by strange accidents , though wonderous . sect. xiv . that mr. baxter doth not rightly expound christs rule , mat. . , . nor is unholiness of men a note to know fals doctrine by . sect. xv. mr. baxters insinuations of the wickedness of anabaptists , is calumniatory , and vainly alleged to condemne their doctrine of antipaedobaptism : anabaptists , and with them my self , are vindicated from charges of schism , neglect of the lords day , &c. sect. xvi . the ground of my opposing infant-baptism , is confirmed by mr. baxter himself . sect. xvii . the gross absurdities , to which mr. baxter vaunted i was driven in the dispute . sect. xviii . the gross untruths mr. baxter chargeth me with , are not such . sect. xix . the . imagined errors charged on me by mr. baxter are cleered from his censure . sect. xx. many learned men ( with the oxford convocation ) of former & later times , take infant-baptism only for an unwritten tradition . sect. xxi . many things are cleared about my conformity , anabaptists necessity to be baptized , the manner of dipping used by them ; their standing to their confession of faith , &c. sect. xxii . the speech [ that no one countrey is gathered into christs visible church ] containes no malignancy to-christ , but is a manifest truth . errata . page . l. . debare reade debate , p. . l. . specially r. speciously , p. . l. . after r. afore , p. . l. . contrary r. century , p. . l. . way r. man , p. . l. . conceive r. convince , p. . l. . wickedness r. weakness , p. . l. . weari . r. wari . p. . l. . . r. . p. . l. . alteration r. altercation , p. . l. . r. is con . p. . l. . and r. i , p. . l. . r. i been , l. . d. likely is , p. . l. . , . r. . p. . l. . singularly r. singularity , p. . l. . hot r. not , p. . l. . overlasting r. overlashing , p. . l. . mysteriis r. mysticis , p. . l. . l. it . is as , l. . scoffically r. scoptically , p. . l. . . r. . p. . l. . eternally r. eventually , l. . r. act act. p. . l. . r. this is , p. . l. . r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . l. . absolutely r. resolutely , p. . l . they r. them , l. . accident r. antecedent , p. . l. . . r. . p. . l. . r. knew them , p. . l. . me the d me . but what r. that , p. . l. . notions r. motions , p , . l. . r. ampsing . p. . l. . alteration r. altercation , p. . l. . in r. i , p. . l. . r. come to me , p. . l. . r , if he , l. . el r. all , l. . tras . r. trans . l. . any r. my . mr. richard baxter in the . edition of the saints everlasting rest , part . . chap. . sect . . pag. . in the margin , hath these words . and in the primitive times none were baptized without an expresse covenanting , wherein they renounced the world , flesh and devil ; and engaged themselves to christ , and promised to obey him ; as you may see in tertul. origer , cyprian , and others at large . i will cite but one for all , who was before the rest , and that is justin martyr ; speaking of the way of baptizing the aged , saith , how we are dedicated to god , we will now open to you . as many as being penswaded do believe these things to be true which we teach , and do promise to live according to them , they first learn by prayer and fasting to beg pardon of god for their former sins ; our selves joining also our prayer and fasting . then they are brought to the water , and are born again ( or baptized ) in the same way as we our selves were born again . for they are washed with water in the name of the father , the lord and god of all ; and of our saviour jesus christ ; and of the holy ghost — then we bring the person thus washed and instructed , to the brethren , as they are called , where the assemblies are ; that we may pray both for our selves and the new illuminated person , that we may be found by true doctrine and by good works , worthy observers and keepers of the commandments , and that we may attain eternal salvation . then there is brought to the chief brother , ( so they called the chief minister ) bread , and a cup of wine ( washed ; ) which taking , he offereth praise and thanksgiving to the father by the name of the son and holy ghost . and so a while he celebrateth thanksgiving . after prayers and thanksgiving , the whole assembly saith amen . thanksgiving being ended by the president ( or chief guide ) & the consent of the whole people , the deacons as we call them , do give to every one present , part of the bread and wine , over which thanks was given ; and they also suffer them to bring it to the absent . this food we call the eucharist , to which no man is to be admitted but onely he that believeth the truth of our doctrine , being washed in the laver of regeneration for remission of sin ; and so liveth as christ hath taught : apol. . this then is no new overstrict way you see . praecursor , or a forerunner to a large review of the dispute concerning infant-baptisme heretofore mannaged by the author . sect . i. of the necessity and occasion of this writing . it is the observation of solomon prov. . . ( as we now reade it ) that a brother offended is harder to be won then a strong city , and their contentions like the bars of a castle , which being strong will neither bow , nor yield , say our late annotations on the place . which thing as it is true of natural brethren , when they contend about civil affaires , so it is too often found true among christian brethren , yea even in the ministery of the gospel , when they contend about the things of christ whether out of faction , or conscience . we need not go far for instances to prove it : this last age hath verified it too plainly in the contentions between the lutherans & calvinists in germany , remonstrants & contraremonstrants in belgia , prelatist ; & non-conformists , independents and presbyterians in england . among others the providence of the lord hath made me a man of contention , as the prophet complaines of himself , jerem. . , and that which is most grievous to me with my brethren in the ministery and faith of christ , with whom . i hoped for a brotherly conjunction in the work of christ , the yoke of prelates being removed , and about that ordinance of baptisme , which should be a bond of union between us , ephes. . . i with others asserting infant-baptisme to be a corruption of the ordinance of baptisme , others avouching it as of god , and the countrary a pernitious error . the season in which i appeared in this matter , the spirits of men in old , and new england being very thirsty after reformation in worship according to the word , humane inventions every where cried down , this being taken for a maxime against papists , and prelates , that in gods worship we must keep close to the institution , and an assembly called to that end , and the parliament with them engaged in solemne covenant , . i taking the way approved by protestant writers afore i vented any thing in publique to debare the matter with learned ministers , and after to present my exceptions against paedobaptisme to a committee of the assembly , gave me hopes of a facile and speedy way for clearing the point . but whether it were that mens resolutions were pitched on the patternes of other churches , or swayed with prejudice , or fear or something else , i quickly found my hopes deceived , my very dissenting from them though in this candid manner begetting enmity towards me , and notwithstanding my reasons presented to them , paedobaptisme established in the directory , and the not practising of it , and gainsaying of it made penal ; which things necessitated me to print my two treatises , and this drew down on me a storm of writers , by whom mens spirits were exasperated against me , whereby i was enforced to print my apology , afore i could review the dispute as i intended . but my apology not preventing my removal from that place where i had better opportunity to write , and print then sithence , yet as soone as i could settle my self and family in any sort i applied my self to review the dispute according to the order of the examen of mr. marshals sermon , which i had gone through unto the third conclusion , and had some purpose of printing a part of it by it self , because of the difficulty in printing and sale of large things : yet afore i did it by reason of the neighbour-hood of mr. b. i imparted some sheetes about cor. . . to him , out of which he took notes as he pleased , and quickly returned them to me without animad versions on them , which i hoped he would have done of his own accord , as the manner of schollers of acquaintance is in such cases . after some of my auditors beginning to enquire after the duty of being baptized , it was propounded by one to have recourse to mr. b. and by me , if they did so , to get his arguments in writing for infant-baptism : but our endeavours not succeeding ; i yielded to a dispute though much against my mind , presaging from the knowledge i had of mr. baxters quicknesse and my own slownesse in answering an argument not under my eye , the favour of the most to mr. bs. tenet , and a verseness from mine , and other accidents ; mr. b. likely to gain the fame of a victory , and to put back the work of reformation of that corruption , yet hoping mr. b. would after have imparted to me his arguments in writing , that i might as dr. raynolds permitted hart , mend my answers afore printing . but mr. b. denying it , and venting the passage in his saints everlasting rest , wherein he speaks of grosse absurdities i was driven to , i was forced to print my antidote , since which he hath printed a large book in which he hath raised much dust to darken the truth , and to asperse my person : which i am necessitated to answer , and to stay or order the review of the dispute between my self , mr. m. and others as there shall be cause . sect . ii. that the title of mr. baxters book is a mock-title . mr. bs. book is intituled plain scripture-proof of infants churchmembership and baptism : which is true only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : to the contrary , and might have been moretruly intituled , no plain scripture-proof for infants baptism . let any man but view his texts which are these : mat. . . acts . . levit. . , . luke . , . with mat. . . mark. . . rom. . , , , , , . mat. . , , . revel . . . heb. . . & . . deut. . , , . rom. . . exod. . . josh. . , . deut. . , , . exod. . . num. . . dan. . . deut. . , . deut. , , , . mal. . . cor. . . mark . , . & . , , , . being not prepossessed with his chymical extractions , but using his own wit or ancient commentators , yea or modern except about three or four of these texts , and i should as soon expect he should conclude a new world in the moon as infant-baptisme from them . the very first and only text which speaks a word of baptism is so plain against infant-baptisme , that paedobaptists in their commentaries and disputes think it enough if they can avoid the force , of it against them . yea is not mr. bs. own confession contradictory to the title of his book ? page . posit . . he tells us of some things plainly determined in scripture , others have no such determination . and saith , such is the case of infant-baptisme . and page . if the very baptisme of infants it self be so darke in the scripture , that the controversie is thereby become so hard as we finde it , &c. and if it be so dark in scripture , and found so hard by him , me thinks that he might not be thought to delude people ; he should have altered the title , and forborne to talke as he doth in his book of bringing plain scripture-proof to them that call for them . if i might be allowed to passe my censure on him as he doth on me , i would not stick to say , that laying aside his rhetorick , his exclamations , interrogations , admirations , expostulations , misapprehensions of my actions and answers , invectives against anabaptists , and two or three quirkes of wit , there 's as little matter to his purpose that hath the likenesse of solidity in his book as i have met within a book so specially set forth , and so much cried up , and that he doth onely magno caenatu nugas agere , endeavour much to trifle much ; and that he had done better with the oxford convocatior , mr. bedford ( as he cites him page . ) with many others to have rested on tradition unwritten , then to bring such impertinent texts as he hath done for infant-baptisme . but i must remember i am an antagonist . he saith he was constrained thereunto unavoidably by my importunity . answer , ti 's true i was importunate to have his arguments in writing : but never that he should print them , much lesse print my answers taken onely from my mouth either relying on anothers pen or his own memory . doctor rainolds dealt not so with hart the jesuit : nor will i think an ingenuous scholler conceive his dealing candid , who knowes the difference of answering in verbal conference , and writing where the argument is before the respondent . if i were so importunate he might have conceived it was for my satisfaction , which he denies to have been manifested to him page . or if it were onely for my neighbours there had been some love in it if we had had them without printing them , specially with such asperity and foule descirptions of me as he makes . but now he hath printed let 's look upon them . sect . iii. mr. baxters citations from fathers advantage him not . after he comes to the arguments which were desired , . leaves in quarto are spent in sentences , epistles , and history , and . more in a very small letter in . positions and . propositions to usher in his arguments with state , or rather to prepossesse his reader . first he sets down . texts , which are alleadged in his . argument to prove his d . main argument , and there i shall meete with them . then sundry of the ancients speeches . the first of origens is examined in my examen part . . sect . and my answer vindicated in my apology sect . . page . the speech of augustin de bapt . cont . donat. l . c. . ( it should be . ) shewes he found no divine authority for infant-baptisme , but the conceit he had that what the universal church holdeth came from apostolical authority , and circumsion of infants . the former is no good rule , as appeares by the tenets of the ancients about episcopacy , easter , millenary opinion , infant-communion . i will recite some speeches of men very eminent , salmas . appar . ad libr. de prim . papae page . eutychio idem usu venit , quod omnibus fermè scriptoribus ecclesiasticis craecis , latinisque , ut dum morem sui temporis spectant à principio sic semper fuisse existimârint : molin . vates lib. . c. . page . d●nique satan jampridem orsus primula initia mysterii iniquitatis tam densas tenebras offudit historiae ecclesiasticae primi seculi sub apostolic , & post apostolos super is additos , ut baronius fateatur vix quicquam certi posse statui . chamier . panstr . cath. tom . . lib. . c. . sect . . ( quasi vero , inquam , non cyprianus quum rebaptizari vellet tincto : apud haereticos non plenis buccis occlamaret it à semper observ itum fuisse in ecclesia . the latter is the common mistake about cicumcision , which hath been often answered in my exercit. exam. apology page . as for the place of august . tom . . de peccat . mer. & remis . l. . c. . that all antiquity held , that believers infants do receive remission of original sin by christian baptisme , mr. b. doth not rightly translate the words . for the words are not as mr. b. translates [ believers little ones , fidelium parvulos ; ] but [ fideles parvulos , believing little ones . ] and what he meanes by little ones believing , he shewes lib. . de peccat . mer. & remiss . cap. . quis autem nesciat credere esse infantibus haptizari , non credere autem non baptizari ? who knowes not that to infants to believe is to be baptized , not to believe is not to be baptized ? so that with austin all baptized infants are believers , unbaptized unbelievers : and yet lib. . de bapt . contra donat. cap. . he saith , that certe nondum possunt parvuli infantes corde credere ad justitiam , & ore confiteri ad salutem , certainly they cannot yet believe with the heart unto righteousnesse , as the pious thief on the crosse , but do withstand by crying their baptism . but how vain austins judgement was about infant-baptism is shewed in my examen part . . sect. . and may be seen by considering how he maintained a like antiquity and necessity of giving infants the lords supper both in the passage cited by me in my apology out of the first book de pecc . merit . & remiss . cap. . pag. . and lib. . de pecc . mer. & remiss . c. . next to that which mr. b. cites which mr. b. doth not rightly cut off page . of his book ; whence i gather that mr. b. is not to be too easily trusted in his citations of authors . the words he cites out of justin martyr his epistle ad zenam prove nothing that is denyed . the testimony of cyprian epist. . is answered in my examen pa. . se. . to mr. b. his question whether a whole councel , and all the church be ignorant whether infants were wont to be baptized . years before , when some of themselves or their fathers were those infants ? i answer , they might be ignorant , it being either not at all or very rarely in that time ; nor is it known of what age the . bishops of that councel were when that epist. was written , nor whose children they were , whether believers or infidels ; nor in the whole epistle is any thing historical set down about the ancient use of infant-baptism : but their determination of the lawfulnesse of it afore the eighth day , which epistle because hierom , augustin and others do so much alleadge as their prime testimony for baptizing infants for remission of original sin , and i am taxed for calling it in my ex. p. . s. . an absurd epist. & mr. f. rous in his late abridgem . of the . fathers hath left out that which was chiefly to have been inserted as the reason of the councels determination , which austin lib. . d'peccat . merit . & remiss . c. . and elsewhere recites ; i have therefore translated the whole epistle into english , and printed it in the end of this writing , not to shew the nakednesse of that father , as i am accused but to clear the truth about the antiquity of infant-baptism . but there is one testimony higher then cyprian which mr. b. urgeth with much earnestnesse as if he did triumph in it : and it is that of pope hyginus , who lived about the year . or . and ordained something about gossips at infant-baptism , which must needs shew the apostles baptized infants . to which i answer , . the decree in the epistle as osiander epit. hist. eccl. cent . . lib. . c. . cites it out of gratian to a word mentions not infant-baptism , though it speak of gossips which were at other times then infant-baptism . . mr. b. might have taken notice , that scultetus med . patru . part . lib. . cap. . saith , of all the epistles of the first popes , no man that reads them attentively , but acknowledgeth them to be forged . the contrary writers cent . . c. . judge the same , osiander epitome eccl. hist. cent. . lib. . cap. . calls the author personatum hyginum , and ( as i remember ) rivet , cook , james passe the like censure . perkins preparative to the demonstration of the problems . these epistles decretal , which passe under the names of clement , evarist , telesphorus , hyginus , & e. are all forged , and that for six reasons : yea doctor prideaux ( whom mr. b. alleadgeth for him ) in his nineth oration de pseudoepigraphis sect. . censures the decretal epistles of the ancient popes as counterfeit . lastly , doctor rainolds in his conference with hart chap. . divis . . hath so fully proved in a large discourse the bastardise of them , that i could hardly have imagined any learned protestant would ever have thus alleadged so notoriously forged a writing . so that i need not answer mr. bs. allegation of this testimony as by currant consent of historians assuring us , and his questions thereor , but by telling him he hath reason to be ashamed of abusing men with this forgery after so much eviction of it by learned men , being more like to a brazen fac'd allegation , then that he so censures me for without cause : he next addes a speech of tertullian de pudic . cap. . and translates it into english. transgression in interpretation is not lesse then in conversation : which i know not why he adds but to shew the evil of my sin in interpretation , as i imagine , of scripture : which had he demonstrated he had done more then yet hath been done by him , mr. m. or any other . that interpretation i give of cor . . had sundry godly and learned protestants , melanchthor , musculus , camerarius , &c. for it ( whose words are printed in my exercit. ) before me , nor do mr. b. his arguments or others take me off from it , but are answered in their place . of my interpretation of mat. . . mr. b. pag. . saith he will stand to most that i said of it . what i said of rom. . . deut. . , , . i intend to vindicate in its place . my way and course of interpreting scripture hath been known where i have preached , at oxford , worcester , lemster , bristol , the temple in london , bewdley . if i make conscience of any thing , it is how i interpret scripture . mr. b. his interpretations of texts in this book are too grosse , as of mat. . . acts . . revel . . . mat. . . &c. so farre as i am able to discern by his writings , sermons and conference , his skill is better in reasoning and amplifying then interpreting scripture , which i think he had need study better then i can yet perceive he hath done . he takes notice page . of an interpretation ( as he is told ) of mine of mat. . . which he censures for a foule interpretation . he saith , sure it is the guilt of sin , and accusation and condemnation of the law with which persons are said to be weary and heavy laden . but i look for better assurance then mr. bs. word . i confesse i finde nothing in the text for that sense : but the coherence with ver . , , . shewes ver . . to be an invitation to come to christ as a teacher , and ver . . is an expression of the end of coming to him , to take his yoke on them , that is , his doctrine and commands , which is expounded by learning of him : which is confirmed by the motive ver . . which is , that his yoke is easie and burden light : which can be understood of no other then his doctrine and commands , parallel to john . . as our translators , beza , new annot. pareus , piscator , grotius , &c. conceive . and he useth sundry arguments to draw them . . from the burdens on them , which i conceive to be rather meant ( the whole context leading thereto ) of such burdens as are mentioned , mat. . . then of sins which are not named . from his mecknesse and low linesse , such as should be in a teacher , tim. . . opposed to harshnesse , superciliousnesse , disdaine , &c. which is propounded rather as an encouragement to them to learne his doctrine , then ( as mr. b. and others ) learn to be meek by my example . . from the rest they should find : to their soules , contrary to distraction and disquietnesse by pharisaical doctrine . . from the ease of his commands , contrary to the rigorous impositions of those doctors . and this interpretation seemes to me to be no foule interpretation , but so faire as that i can discerne no other in the words . sect . iv. mr. bs. citations from my writings advantage him not . after the speech of tertullian he filles a whole page and more with passages out of sundry of my writings , and in the beginning gives this terrible title to them [ mr. tombes self condemnation ] and [ ad hominem ] as if he had an argument from my self against me . the first passage is out of my treatise of scandals pag. . where i reckon anabaptists among hereticks and grievous wolves . to which i answer , . mr. b. knowes i deny my self to be an anabaptist , though not my own baptisme after believing or baptizing of believers , which christ injoyned me , mat. . . mark . . with preaching the gospel : nor doth mr. b. or ever will prove that for this i am to be termed an anabaptist , or that the pretended baptism of infants is a discharge of that duty christ requires of being baptized into his name common to all christians , ephes. . . . mr. b. himself pag. . yields me an absolution in these words [ on the one side some think it no lesse then heresie to deny infant-baptism , and to require rebaptizing ; not that the generality of sober divines ( among which i hope mr. b. reckons me ) do so , but for the rest of the errors , which almost ever do accompany it ] which mr. b. might have imagined to have been my mind in the passage he cites , having been my answer in a sermon at bewdley to this very objection of the parson there in the pulpit , of which i can hardly think mr. b. to have been ignorant . other considerations of the time of printing that book might have occasioned m. b. to have put that construction on my words , were he or any of my antagonists willing to give my words or actions their due interpretation . the other passages condemne me not till i be proved an agent for separation , seedesman of tares : which mr. b. cannot prove , though he tells me pag. . he hath as good evidence that i am a sect-master as that i am a christian , because i preach , dispute , talke , and endeavor as zealously to promote my opinion as i do for the christian faith. to which i answer , my opinion is no other then the command of christ , and if we speak according to scripture , to preach for baptisme of believers is to preach for christian faith . . yet i deny that i preach with a like zeal for that particular point as for greater points of repentance from dead works , & faith towards god in christ incarnate , dead , risen , ascended , to come again , &c. my bewdley auditors besides others will i doubt not witnesse against this calumny . . but were it true that i did preach so zealously for my opinion , yet sith my actions tend not to make a party to follow me , but only endeavour to reform a corruption like those our saviour opposeth mat. . mark . there is no shew of making a sect in my actions , though i were mistaken in them . the passage from the same treatise pa. . concerning an hypocrites falling foully , doth not justify his exposition of mat. . . it proves we oft know an hypocrite by his actions , it is nothing at all to prove a false prophet by his evil manners . the other two passages yield him no advantage for his proving infants disciples from acts . . but are against him . for his prooflies on this , that the yokew as put on infants , and nothing was put on them but circumcision : but those passages speak of the ordinances of the jewes , and with circumcision all the legal ceremonies . if mr. b. mean more by the yoke , acts . . as the doctrines and commands , sure the teachers did not put that on them till they taught them , which was not in infancy . and therefore my words will not help him as will appear in the examining his first argument . all hitherto produced by him , though by his placing it in the forefront he seems to have made account of it , is but paper-shot , brutum fulmen , a crack without force . i go on to the epistles . sect . v. mr. b. unduely suggests many things in his epistles . as for the epistle to the people of kederminster , i rejoice with him in their unity , excepting wherein they agree against the truth ; i think if they will use their understandings , as they should , they will find more reason to be unsettled in the point of infant-baptism , by mr. bs. book then to be settled by it , and that they had little cause of a solemne thanksgiving for mr. bs. mannaging the dispute . my exceptions against his aphorismes of justification are communicated to him . i wish his life may continue to gods glory , and the good of his people , and particularly that he may undeceive whom he hath deceived by his dispute and this book . in his epistle to the people of bewdley he mentions a flame of error and discord at bewdley blown by my breath , and that he came to quench it by the importunity of their magistrate , minister , and many of their people . and his words are often enforced with such aggravating expressions , as make people specially afarre off imagine , that at bewdley there is a great schisme and discord made by my preaching ; whereas there was no such discord as i know of : yea i think afore the dispute the godly did walk together in publique hearing , publique and private prayer , and conference while i was with them and since , as lovingly as in any other places . and though all do not joine in breaking of bread , some going to the parson , others declining him as a stranger to the private meetings of the godly , and an adversary to such godly preachers as from time to time they had gotten for the chappel , and a temporizer with the kings party while the town was under their power went to mr. b. to kederminster , others being baptized have joined with me : yet all of them meet together for repetition and conference , and when i am with them i think in greater number then in my absence , and do embrace my doctrine with lesse breaking out into antinomian , familistical , ranting errors or practises then at kederminster . the discord of most note hath been between two men and their wives , who were by consent or connivence of their husbands baptized , and brake bread with us , till mr. bs. book came forth : which charging us with schism for reforming our selves , and affrighting people with the danger of our way as leading to error they are kept from our society ; which is a manifest separation to avoid an imaginary , of which mr. b. is the chief author ; and i may truly say if there be any such flame of discord at bewdley , as mr. b. meanes , it is blown by mr. bs. breath , not mine , who am conscious to my self of being as studious of unity ( as i can , with preservation of truth . as for my kindling errour ) i fear i have done lesse then i should have done , not meddling with the point of antipaedobaptisme , but as it fell in my way in my cursory exposition on gen. . wherein i only vindicated my self from mr. robert bayly his false criminations of me about the covenant there , and overthrew the suppositions of paedobaptists from thence about the covenant and initial seale , and once or twice more on the by , till by occasion of the motioned dispute between me and mr. b. i saw it was fit i should in some sermons open the controversy , which was not till decemb. . presently after which my return to lemster was concluded . the magistrate a stranger to the meetings of the godly in their houses , the minister ( such as he is ) for his credit , and others of somewhat a like stamp it is likely did invite mr. b. to oppose me as they had done their schoole master to make use of their abilities to uphold their dagon of infant-sprinking : but mr. bs. abuse of scriptures so palpably impertinent , his mannaging the dispute with reasonings of wit , and other camal waies do assure me he had no call from god. his alleadging gal. . , . to justifie his sharpnesse in dealing with me is invalid to that end there being no such dissimulation used by me , nor error maintained by me ; mr. bs. opinion comes neerer peters judaizing then mine . sect . vi. the chief points of mr. bs. book are very briefly touched . the chief points in mr. bs. book he would have observed , in their places shall be ( god willing ) fully examined : for the present only thus much . my confession that all should be admitted church-members by baptisme , was meant of such as by their profession are visible , not of such as are visible in mr. bs. way without profession . the repeal of the law or ordinance for infants visible church-membership will be easily proved when the law or ordinance is shewed . as yet i can find no such law or ordinance save what is injoyned concerning circumcision ; which if it stand in force , we must keep the whole law , gal. . his first challenge is answered by another challenge to shew what one church had infants visible church-members besides the jewes . his second is answered by shewing till abrahams time there is nothing said about any church-frame ; from abrahams time till christs the jewish church-frame stood : in christs time and the apostles no other are reckoned to belong to the visible church , then professors of faith . and so it continued till infants were admitted to baptism to save them , which out of the case of danger of present dying was disswaded by tertullian and gregory nazianzen . afterwards their baptisme was more frequent through austins urging it so much against the pelegians , as strabo rightly observed long since , & together with it infant-communion was common , yet not without the continuance of the old form of putting the question to infants , after which at first profession was declared , & catechizing mostly afore they were baptized at certain seasons of the year till ignorance and confusion overspread the churches . but when god began to stirre up any to reform other corruptions , there were that sought to reform this . years ago , according to truth , notwithstanding mr. bs. mr. ms. or doctor ushers allegations : of whom i perswade my self many may be met with in heaven notwithstanding m. bs. confident expressions to the contrary . yet were all mr. b. sayes true , if i put mr. b. to the like , as to shew me since the apostles , one that questioned keeping of an easter , lent fast , infant-communion , monkish profession , &c. till the last age he will be hard put to it . his considerations depend upon the points in dispute : in examining of which it may appear how frivolous his questions are . infants church-membership i find no where but in the peculiar national policy of the jewes , no universal law or ordinance , for it ; the jewish policy is taken away both de facto by the providence of god , and de jure of right by the declaration of christ and his apostles in the n. t. and by altering the way of church-gathering and constitution . the jewes were hainously offended at the taking away of circumcision , not because he took away churchmembership of infants , but because of the taking away of the law of moses , the temple , priesthood , &c in which they gloried , acts . , . acts . , . if it be true , that it was a known trueth , that infants were visihle church-members , and to be admitted disciples , and the apostles did not admit them , mat. . ( which mr. b. supposeth ) then the challenge is answered , name me away from the creation till . years age , who did once question infants church-membership ? for after mr. bs. dictates the apostles did so . let men turne over their bibles , they will finde enough in them against infants visible church-membership in the n. t. he askes , why the speech , marke . . which excludes infants from baptisme , should not also exclude them from salvation for want of believing ? to which i answer , it is not doubted but that infants belong to the invisible kingdome of the elect rom. . . mat. . . but how they attain salvation is not so certain : if by a seed of faith or holinesse without actual exercise , the thing is more easie to conceive : if by actual exercise extraordinarily and immediately wrought by the holy spirit , then the speeches , he that believeth not , shall be damned , and the like , do exclude infants from salvation if not believing actually ; if by vertue of election without any work on them , if by vertue of the covenant their parents believing ( which some assert , but i professe to know no such covenant ) then the speeches , he that believeth not , shall be damnned , with the like , must be understood with this limitation , he of those to whom the gospel is preached that believeth not shall be damned . for my part , i do much in cline to that opinion , which conceives marke . . john . . and such like , to be understood of belief & unbelief of those of years , who have the gospel preached to them because the course of the context leads thereto . which being premised , i answer to the question , that infants are excluded from baptisme from mat. . . marke . , . compared together , because these texts shew that according to christs institution , they that are to be baptized are to be disciples or known professed believers , and baptisme belongs onely to whom christ appoints it . yet these texts do not exclude infants from salvation , because either it excludes professed unbelievers , not non-believers negatively from incapacity , or it excludes unbelievers that are in no sort believers , neither in the seed nor fruite , neither byordinary , nor by extraordinary operation ; in one of which wayes infants are or may be believers , and so not excluded by that text , if belief and unbelief comprehend all these wayes in that place . to his question , what great comfort would follow this conclusion [ that all your infants are out of christs visible church ] that men should bend their wits so to prove it ? i answer , the question might be retorted , what great comfort would follow this conclusion [ that all our infants are by nature children of wrath ] that men should bend their wits so to prove it ? . the answer i suppose mr. b. would give to the one will fit us , that whether it be matter of comfort or discomfort , we must maintain truth . to another passage of his supposing , that to be visibly in the church is all one as ( to our judgement ) to belong to christs kingdome , i answer by denying it , and doubt not to shew how this mistake hath much misled mr. b. when i examine the . chap. of the first part of his book . we can prove that christ will save his elect though no christians in appearance , nor disciples by profession , nor visibly subjects of his kingdome . mr. b. talkes vainly of the judgements of gods ministers and churches in all ages of the world , when as their judgement is proved by my writings to have been , and to be at this day so various about infant-baptisme ; i have little hope to conceive mr. b. by my writings , which he sleights so much as to say , that the best part of my bookes is ink and paper . men not inferiour to mr. b. and one i am sure farre beyond mr. b. in disputes , judged otherwise . were not mr. b. mounted to an height of disdainful pride , me thinks he might have spied the clearing of some scriptures , and other things more worth then the ink and paper . it is his uncharitable conceit of me , if he imagine i write to have the last word : it is to shew his grosse a buse of scripture , and his fallacies of reasoning . if he out-live this answer i now am making , any time he may have the last word if he will for me , who am weary with meddling with such a distemper'd writer . i blame not mr. b. for printing : but for printing my answers afore i had fitted them to his arguments in writing , as doctor rainolds dealt with hart , which ( saith he in his preface to his conference with hart ) learned men have thought to be most fit for trial of truth , not by extemporal speaking , but writing with advise the question argued of , the arguments , the answers , the replies set down , and sifted of both sides till each had fully said ; in fine , the whole published , that the churches and the faithfull all may judge of it . such a rule was followed also in the conference at the hague , and in all other profitable colloquies about points in controversie ; to all which mr. bs. dealing with me hath bin altogether unlike . nor is he excused by telling me he had a copy of my sermon , and had conference with me . for besides other exceptions this excuse takes not away , it is very apparent that neither in the dispute nor in that conference his judgement about infants discipleship and church-visibility , and other points in his book could be discerned so as to know determinately what to oppose . which makes me glad of the publishing of his book however , though for the present i suffer much by it , nothing doubting but i shall be able to shew the wickednesse of his writing , so as that all that are willing may see , that whosoever leanes on his arguments to justifie their infant-baptisme , rests on a broken reed that will run into his hands . sect . vii . many personall occurrences are cleered by relating of which mr. b. hath in his history sought to create prejudice against me . next to the two epistles followes the history , in which his designe seemes to be to vindicate himself from my accusations , and to recriminate me . i shall here very briefly answer him about personal matters in the history and elsewhere , that the readers may onely have to do with arguments , and answers when they come to them . he spends some leaves to prove he did not incosiderately and rashly take up his opinion , as i accuse him . whereas i do not remember , that any where i accuse him of rashnesse , but antidote sect . . of inconsideratenesse and haste in that passage wherein he names anabaptists in the plural , meaning me onely . which whether he did or no it 's not material : nor worth while to make reply to the descant of his corrective on that passage in my antidote . the next thing in his history to which i am to answer is , that he chargeth me with both there , and in his answer to my valedictory oration page , . with falsehood , in telling them in the pulpit , that i could never know his arguments till the dispute , that he hid his weapons till he meant to strike , that i was set upon at a sudden , that i had the arguments concealed from me aforehand : the contrary whereof was manifest in that he had urged the same argument at col. taylors house in london , that i bad seen some notes of his in which the first was that which he urged at the dispute , and therefore that i spake not truth , and it 's an evidence his arguments are good in that i gave such feeble answers to them . to which i say , i do not think i said i could never know his arguments till the dispute : i confesse the conference at col. taylors house . and the reading of his arguments ( as was said ) . but the conference being not written , nor the notes then in my hand , there were left onely some imperfect and obscure apprehensions of them in me , which in respect of giving a distinct answer were all one as if i knew them not at all : by reason of which i was very desirous to get his arguments in writing , that i might be the better able to answer them , and satisfie others ; which mr. b. not yielding to , i could not give answer , but on the sudden without premeditation the arguments being gone from me , like nehuchad-nezzars dream , and i did imagine , and accordingly used these words in a letter , it was said , you would hide your weapon till you were to use it ; in which opinion his taking hold of so many indirect ways for advantages to possesse mens minds with his opinion , and to hinder a free examination of what is said on both sides do confirme me . and that things may be apprehended nakedly as they were , i do acknowledge , that it is my disposition , be it dulnesse or wearinesse , to pause on a new argument whether in reading or conference , so that i cannot oft-times give a clear answer to an argument i have not bin used to on a sudden , no nor many times to an argument i have been versed in , when it is not under my eye , when other matters possesse my memory , when fear of speaking ineptly doth benumme me and hinder my elocution , when i have some obscure notion of a fallacy which at present i cannot readily discover . which knowledge of my self made me unwilling to come to a publick dispute or extemporal conference with mr. b. whom i had found in conferences i had with him to be quick in apprehension and expression , various and copious in multiplying arguments and expressions , captious of advantages , ready to expose even to contempt , with shew of disdain , those that speak not according to his mind , which made me conceive i should neither well remember , nor weigh his arguments afore i must answer , nor clear truth , nor satisfie my self or others , but occasion glorying in mr. b. and settling people in his error . neverthelesse presaging by his declining to argue by writing and his words in his letter sept. . [ if i should refuse a conference ( called before an open verbal dispute ) on such advantages i should think it were almost to yield my cause naught ] that it would be taken as if i did confesse i could not answer him , after much endeavour in vain to get his arguments in writing that i might consider of them before the dispute , i yielded to be ready to justifie my doctrine openly or privately by word or writing , as should be judged convenient . whereupon mr. b. having drawn me to agree upon jan. . without any agreement about stating the question , order or rules of the dispute , notaries on both sides to set down what was said people being gathered together from other places by his party , and a place in state prepared for him with his abettors , schollers and others on both sides him , i my self alone without any notary or assistant was forced to answer him prepared in this unexpected manner , lest i should have endammaged the cause by seeming tergiversation ; yet presuming that i should have found such dealing after by communicating to me in writing his arguments afore printing , or at lest forbearing to print my answers till i had viewed and rectified them , that might have repaired what seeming disadvantage the truth had by my present answers : in which i found my selfe extreamly deceived , my motion of having his arguments in writing after the dispute being answered by quarrelling with me about things on the by , and in a subdolous and indirect way filling the land with conceits as if his tenet and arguments were unanswerable , and i a person pertinarious without reason . by this true relation the truth of my intimation of the suddenness of the assault , my ignorance of his arguments , my speeches concerning his concealing his arguments , provoking me to dispute are verified , the reasons of my desiring his arguments in writing , the cause of varying my answers at the dispute , and why to so weake arguments no fuller answers were then given , and why i said at bewdley ( which i still think ) i preached nothing but truth to them , are assigned : about all which mr. b. hath endeavoured to misrepresent me and my proceedings in his history of the conception of his treatise . as for mr. bs. inclination now to think me a very proud man however he thought heretofore , and that i have higher thoughts of my self then was meete , because of my dissent from so many churches and god'y divines , and because of my answer in private to him about the reason i gave why the error of infant-baptisme being easie to be discerned was not discerned through wilfulnesse or negligence , i say . my dissent is not singular , nor my reasons and writings such but that such a one as my self might be allowed to hold my tenet without imputations of selfe-conceitednesse , arrogance , &c. mr. b. varies from churches and learned men about justification and faith in his aphorismes : what he can say for himself why he should not be censured as he censures me may perhaps be my plea. i cannot alter my own judgement or others but by arguments , nor dare i say i do see what i do not . . as for my speech in private ( which me thinks it was somewhat against the lawes of friendship for him thus to publish ) i know not what better answer yet to give , but to ascribe it to prejudice , or faction or some such like cause that men are so wilful or negligent as not to examine and discerne the errour of infant-baptism so manifestly discernable by applying to it their own rules and positions in reformation of popish and prelatical corruptions . and i do conceive the same or like answer would be given about the lutherans holding consubstantiation , images to be retained in temples , ubiquity of christs body , conditional predestination , and sundry the like tenets : which may be a just censure without pride . that which mr. b. saies , [ and lest my touching that controversy though at a distance might irritate him to fall upon it , i never spake one word ( to my best remembrance ) in my congregation of it to this day , for fear of giving any occasion of difference page . i never preached one sentence before the dispute , nor since to his hearers or mine that i can remember on the question . page . i never spake one word against his opinion in my pulpit to this day ] shewes his memory retaines not all he printed in his saints everlisting rest , preached on the lecture-dayes at kederminster . as page . we should see the promises made good to our seed , and the unthankful anabaptists , that will not confesse , that the children of the saints are any nearer to god or more beholding to him then pagans , so much as for the favour to be visible churchmembers , should by sweet experience be convinced of their errour , and be taught better how to understand that all our children are holy . page . he calls the disputes about baptism perverse and fierce , which did so directly touch the controversy as might irritate me to fall on it at bewdley , and make those that told me think he did gird at me , which he denies pag. . he mentions a speech of mine to mr. d. whom he terms a godly man [ that truth is not to be suspended for peace ] and saith , when the times changed ( which his words page . interpret to be meant , when the ordinance against heresies and errors ceased to be in force ) i spake against infant-sprinkling , prest them to be baptized again , mentioned in sermons mr. m. mr. blake , and himself , when my doctrine prevailed not ( though since i have gotten above . rebaptized disciples , whom i often visit and confirm ) that i charged them with hypocrisy , with their blood on their heads , that m. ms. plea from circumcision for infant-baptism is heresie , that by my definition of heresy independants must be judged hereticks , that i sought his arguments in writing to put them in my review of the dispute with mr. m. and to ing age him in the controversy ; whence he gathered i was unpeaceable , set to carry on my opinion , and to make my self a party . to all this i reply . 't is true some conceiving mr. b. in his speeches had a fling at me , and it seeming likely to me , i did speak to the purpose mr. b. saies i did , not imagining that a speech upon a conference in a shop without its limitations and cautions should have been ( as it is by mr. b. ) published and refuted as my error : but indeed willing only that mr. b. should know , that in my case i was not to suspend my asserting of truth for fear of losing of peace , as i alleadge in my apology sect . . and i professe i wonder that such as mr. m. mr. b. and others that were so earnest against bishops and ceremonies though warres did follow , and had a great hand in putting them on , should now , the warres being so well abated , be so impatient that infant-sprinkling is questioned . it is untruely surmifed that the change of times was the cause of my opening my self fully in the congregation at bewdley . my first meddling with it was when mr. bayly had so unjustly charged me in his anabaptisme chap. . page . with spoiling infants of all interest in the covenant of grace , making circumcision a seale to the jewes only of earthly priviledges , denying to the jewish infants all right to the covenant till in their riper years they become actual believers . which with other fals accusations about twenty in that one page i intreated by letter my dear father-in-law mr. henry scudder to advertise him of : after that i might stand right in the thoughts of that worthy man mr. william hopkins of bewdley ( now with god ) i shewed him how he wronged me , and then cleared my self in my cursory exposition on ger. . brought his book with me into the pulpit , and read a passage of mr. ms. defence part . . page . for my vindication , which was presently sent up to london . but mr. bayly doing nothing to right me , i wrote to mr. bayly , and because mr. rutherford had my letter to send to him , i wrote since to him to know what became of my letter , but have had no answer . after this i was moved to preach what i did ( which was but little till december . ) when i found my tenet on the day of fast to be humbled for blasphemies and heresies ( which was as i remember march . . ) reckoned as by others so by mr. obadiah sedgewick in his sermon before the lords among heresies , ( with which i found afterwards the censure of . ministers about london to concurre stigmatizing me by name as holding four pernicious errors in my examen ) and when the ordinance against blasphemy and heresie was published ; which mr. boraston though not required , yet published at ribsford ( to which bewdley chappel relates ) that he might proclaime me an heretick . which necessitated me to speak what i did , not the change of times ( it 's known i spake as much in the hardest times to my opinion as since ) nor unpeaceablenesse in me , as mr. b. surmised . what i preached was in no clamourous manner ( as mr. b. would intimate , calling it exclaiming ) but in a way of proof and answer as sober divines do in the like case . my na ming any was when i recited their words : for which though i was reviled once in london when refuting doctor crisp i named him , and mr. b. in a letter to me , and since in print reckons as no small fault , yet i ever did , and do still think it to be necessary , when the books are in mens hands , and the auditors are not likely otherwise to know we recite their opinion truly , nor whose error we refute . i do not believe i used those words mr. b. sets down as mine [ let them budge at it , &c. ] though it 's likely i might say , it 's one of the chiefest signes of sincerity to embrace every truth , and hypocrisy not to receive it for carnal respects ; not out of anger that men were not of my mind , but to justify my self after i had fully handled the point about baptism ( which i think was either after or immediately before the dispute ) i used the apostles words , act. . , . nor do i deny that sith our lord christ doth , mark . . make baptisme some condition of salvation , i think those that are taught that infant-sprinkling is not the duty christ requires of being baptized , and that water baptisme of men at years upon profession of faith is a necessary duty ( which i had sufficiently proved at bewdley ) and yet neglect it , do hazzard their salvation living in disobedience to a manifest duty , yea the prime duety whereby they ought solemnly to engage themselves to be christs disciples . i have gotten no disciples to me , and though more then in bewdley have bin baptized after profession of faith since my removal from them ( whom with the whole town i think my self bound by many ties as often as i may to visit and confirm ) yet not rebaptized . it is true to shew how unreasonable the accusation of my tenet as heresy is , i have sundry times said that mr. ms. position in his sermon page . [ that all gods commands and institutions about the sacraments of the jewes bind us as much as they did them , in all things which belong to the substance of the covenant , and were not accidentall unto them ] is one of the most manifest heresies being condemned , acts . for it expressely asserts that the gentile christians are still bound to some rule of circumcision , contrary to the apostles determination . nor did i frame a definition of heresie to make good what i said of mr. ms. tene , though i deny not the definition i gave with some explication of my meaning : of which what mr. b. hath in his corrective page , . is not much short . mr. bs. inference thereupon that by my definition independents are heretick , followes not . for though they erre , yet that they make a party for their error is unknown to me : although weary of alteration with mr. b. as acquainted with his temper i replyed not . if i desired mr. bs. animadversions on my writings , that i might see all worth answering and put it in my review , it was no more unreasonable in me to desire then in mr. b. to desire the like afore his reprinting his aphorismes , nor any more folly in him to have gratifyed me then , then in othersto gratifie him with the like ; but had been a very friendly & neighbourly part in him to one , who was very glad to gratify him or his neighbours in any thing meet for me , as i deny not ( excepting this ) he and his neighbours were to gratify me . after his denial of his animadversions i think i came to his lecture sundry times though not so often as formerly , because of my much absence from bewdley . to conclude , mr. b. found me not adverse to the churches peace , but only his uncharitable surmises imagined me so . and i desire the reader to take notice that in all this he chargeth me with , there is no one act of separation from whence he should conclude so hardly of me as he doth . sect . viii . more personal matters which the history of mr. b. hath made crooked are set straight the next part of the history is about the occasion and mannaging of the dispute , to most of which an answer may be gathered out of my letter to him sept. . of which so much as is needful is printed at the end of this writing . to call being baptized in the name of christ apostasie , contrary to the ancients language , and in effect to call white black . divisions that happen , if the saddle be put on the right horse , are to be charged on them that oppose the reformation of the corruption of infant-sprinkling . i think i answered mr. bs. letter sufficiently in mine of sept. . . if i had a designe to answer his arguments in my review it had been an honest designe , and hansomer then mr. bs. printing my answers to his arguments afore he had them from me in writing . sith mr. b. is unwilling to be put in the crowd among the rest he shall have an answer ( so far as it is fit ) by himself , that he may not complain of being sleighted by being yoked with the vulgar . my dealings with mr. m. were such as none can justly expcept against . personal things were fully answered in my apology : the dispute it self at large i reserved for the review : onely sect . . i gave arguments to prove rom. . . &c. to be meant of ingrasfing by giving faith into the invisible church , and sect . , . pointed at some of the chief things wherein mr. ms. d●fence was defective . i professed not a full answer to mr. blake , but gave short advertisements in my postscript with reasons why i did so , which i yet count sufficient for answer to that piece , however mr. b. imagine of it . i slubber'd over nothing ( as mr. b. and one mr. george milward in a letter to one capt. freema charge me ) . if i do not write so quick as m. b. mr. m. &c. it is from my unsettled condition , ministeriall imployments , the multitude of them that write against me , though i earnestly intreated that i might see the strength of all together , ( which motion had been fit for them that were desirous to have truth take place , and not make use of advantages to hinder the cleering of it ) the difficulty and charge of printing , which mr. b. can easily perhaps have done , people being averse from the truth i hold , and willing to sell or buy or reade any thing against me , but not what is for me . that in my sermons at bewdley i culled out the weakest arguments , is most false : to the best of my skill i produced the best arguments i met with in their strength , and as much as i could in the authors words . mr. cobbets book being a loose discourse for the most part , having many passages , and expressions proper to the way of n. e. filled with dictates unproved , much of it against f. s. h. d. &c. whose speeches and arguments i am not engaged to maintain , i do not bind my self to answer . if i might be allowed to passe my judgement freely , notwithstanding mr. cottons , mr. thomas goodwins , and mr. bs. conceits of it , i should say , that i do not perceive in the matter of it any such strength as needs much answering , and that the method and expressions are such as that it cannot well be answered without lopping off many superfluous branches , enquiring into his meaning in many of his expressions which are cloudy ( which would be extreamly tedious to the answerer and reader , and liable to much exception ) and reducing it into a more scholastical forme ; were it by himself shaped into a succinct treatise like mr. nortons to apollonius , and should be willng to answer it , if i found any thing in it , which i had not answered before : but i would not have the reader expect me to answer that again , which in some of my writings is formerly answered , and in which he might by reading heedfully satisfie himself : yet i did answer the chief of his arguments in those sermons , and i intend to answer what else i meet with in them , that is opposed to my examen , and what ever else i shall conceive is necessary to be answered . i little expected to satisfie mr. b. who i found had prejudice in him , which was not denied by him . mr. bs. name was used with respect onely in citing his words in his aphorismes , which i never dreamt would be taken for an injury . his censuring mens writings and confuting them in pulpit without naming them or citing their words as it is lesse offensive , so it is lesse edifying . mr. bs. prosperity and my conceived failings at the dispute ( which will appear to be mr. bs. mistakes in the answer of his arguments in print ) were ordered by the almighties providence for humbling me , and discovery of mr. bs. spirit then ( which must be refereed to the judgement of the hearers ) and since ( which readers may perceive ) yet i hope according to the strange-windings of his providence , as in josephs case , for the advancement of the truth he opposeth . the ministers about mr. b. at the dispute were all of mr. bs. party sent for up and down all the countrey , such as they were , if they may be reputed ministers , or men that mind the things of christ : of whom no marvel mr. b. was cried up , i taunted with dulnesse , it serving for their ends to keep up their esteeme : one or two of better account sate further off , yet of mr. bs. judgement . that i did not bearken to mr. borastons motion for mr. bs. preaching , it was because i knew it would be likely to stirre up passion , and settle prejudice in the people ( in which i find by that he hath printed chap. . . especially in the very beginning i was not mistaken ) and i hoped to bring the dispute to writing , which is the best way to clear truth , and i suspected ( as i had cause ) mr. borastons and the then magistrates , and those reputed godly persons devices and motions , which were then by many conceived to be contrived for the parsons endes , the continuing his power and profits by keeping up that rite which ingratiates the profane and formal persons to him . whereunto that mr. b. hath been subservient is the grief of many , and might well befit mr. b. to repent of . when i saw i could not get mr. bs. arguments in writing , i got what notes i could of the dispute from others writing or my own memory ; and knowing that vauntes were given out of mr. bs. victory , i did as well as i could summe up his arguments , and answer them jan. . and after went to him upon his motion jan. . to confer with him , which was friendly on both sides ; yet that which i hoped and i conceived he promised , that though he would not send me his arguments in writing ( which i again moved ) yet he would transcribe them for such as should come to him to be resolved in that point , after sundry puttings off was not obtained : but instead thereof in march the weeke afore i removed from bewdley i met with the passage in his epistle dedicatory to the people of kederminster , to which i after opposed my valedictory oration in bewdley chappel march. . . and printed the same in effect in my antidote in may following . now mr. b. alleadgeth he had reason for his not sending his arguments to me to keep me from erring they being not desired , for my self , but my people , i remained very confident of my self , that when i sent to him i heap'd so many untruths about matters of fact i knew , that he durst not answer me lest the very naming my untruths might cause me to say , he reproached or railed , that his conference was with me in private , because he thought my pride of spirit would not permit me to confesse truth openly , that he wrote the passage in his epistle to kederminster out of zeale for god , compassion to mens souls , my opinion and preaching being like to do more hurt against the church of god , then drunkards and whoremongers , and therefore he had cause to be bitter in his writing . to all which speeches i reply , he had reason to conceive i desired satisfaction for my self by my desiring his animadversions , and by my letter to him sept. . if not , yet to have given them in writing , which he had as he saies before , at coventrey preached and were ready by him , had been a neighbourly part to men that were his frequent hearers . but his prejudice against my opinion and uncharitable conceit of my pride ( as heretofore mr. m. and mr. ley interpreted my most equal motion in humility of spirit in the end of my examen to be the challenge of a braving goliath , so now any opposing what 's determined by synods and leading writers must be condemned as comming from pride ) are a sufficient reason not to gratify me , but to do what he can against me , and this must be counted zeale for god , and his insolent bitternesse justifiable , as being in pretence against a pernicious sin not yet proved , but indeed against a truth discovering an error , whereby the prime ordinance of christianity is miserably corrupted . he speaks of a fearful passion a feaver of passion i was in when i first read the passage in his epistle against anabaptists , such as he would not be infor all my revenues , if i had not a free vent for my spleen in pulpit and presse he doubts it might have spoiled me . 't is true when i first read it unexpectedly in mr. ds. house , i was stirred in my spirit out of the sense of the wrong done to me and the truth by it , and not meeting with the book before , i wrote out the passage : but that by word or carriage i shewed such passion as he speaks of i am certain is his tale-tellers addition , whose conscience may perhaps one day tell him of his ill offices in opposing truth , and nourishing differences between me and mr. b. mr. b. hath a jerke at my revenues , by which he would have the world believe it is very great , and such as were desirable for himself : whereas his outward estate considering his being an unplundered , or not much plundered single young man heir of a good estate in land , besides his sequestration is more likely to suffice his uses then my estate my uses , though i blesse god it is better with me through the favour of some eminent persons sensible of my hard usuage , then it would have been if the party opposite to me had prevailed , and i could reasonably hope ; when for no other cause but the publishing of my examen my remove from the temple in londen with my wife and children above a hundred miles in the middest of winter was necessitated . not content with this jerke about my revenewes page . he tells me in print of being parson of rosse , vicar of lemster , preacher of bewdley , master of the hospital of ledbury , besides meanes of my own , and yet complaining of want i and my family might be put to in my bookes , and he addes , you made so light of having no lesse then four market-townes to lie on your shoulders as if it were nothing , and then sath pious sober men think it his duty to say what he did . to which i reply . mr. m. is taken for a pious sober man , yet in his defence of his sermon page . he accused me most deeply of a socianian plot of questioning all conclusions inferr'd by consequence from scripture ; the injury of which i shewed in my apology sect . . yea his own words in his defence pag. . you neither there nor here deny this argument from a consequence to be sufficient for practice of some things in the worship of god , which are not expressely laid down in the n. t. refute this calumny , yet to this day i never found that he did any thing to right me . the like may i say of mr. robert baillee of glasgow in scotland notwithstanding his false criminations before mentioned , and my writing to him about them . how mr. geree used me is shewed in my apology sect . . yet his vindiciae vindiciarum was presently after published without any shew of remorse of conscience for what he did . and now mr. b. tells me , pious and sober men advise him to say that which as he puts it down is false and exceeding injurious to me , to wit , that i had foure market-townes on my shoulders , which every one will interpret to be . beneficial places under my charge together , besides meanes of my own , and yet complain in my bookes of want i and my family may be put to . whereas the truth is , there are no words that have a shew of complaint ( which yet indeed are not querulous but onely narrative ) but those in the close of my examen and apology , and neither of them , when i enjoyed any thing at lemster , bewdley , rosse or ledbury ; but the former was anno . when all my estate was in the enemies power , and my small stipend at eanchurch withdrawn by reason of my not practising infant-baptisme ; the other when i was to leave the temple for publishing my examen anno . when the counties to which i had relation , were but newly reduced to the obedience of the parliament . and then i assayed to returne to lemster , where i had been almost totally plundred anno . and yet so great was the antipathy of some men against me , that i could neither get reparation for my losses , nor allowance for building the ministers house , nor any augmentation , but onely kept the bare title till the end of the year . 't is true some pittying my condition gave me the rent of the rectory of rosse anno . which having a vicar endowed , and the rectory leased out with the rectors house , they gave it me with expectation of preaching only some sermons there as i could ; but being invited to bewdley i accepted of the invitation , and though the maintenance were but finall , and the years dear , and my charges great in refurnishing my house and study , yet i rested contented therewith till the deane and chapter of worcesters landes being to be sold , out of which the best part of my maintenance did arise , the providence of god cast on me the mastership of the hospital of ledbury , which doth not tie me to the charge of soules , much lesse puts the market-towne on my shoulders . and then presently i yielded up my interest in rosse though some of the godly there were very unwilling i should . and when my pay ended at bewdley the lord opened a way for my returne to lemster , and provision was made for me there . by which it may appear , that it is most injuriously suggested as if i had . beneficial places together , yea . market-townes on my shoulders , and those that know not the truth imagine me very covetous , and my revenues very great , not knowing my condition what it is and what my losses have been . me thinks when the people of bewdley , rosse , lemster , were all satisfied ( so farre as i could discerne ) with the equity of my actions , mr. b. and those other he meanes might have been so likewise , and possibly had been an assembly-man it would have beene no disparagement to me to have been a master of a house in the university , to have had a lecture at london , a sequestration or presentation in the countrey , besides pay for sitting in the assembly at the same time : but might have in mr. bs. bookes bin stiled neverthelesse a learned , holy , experimental , iudicious , humble , heart-piercing preacher . i cannot but be sensible of the great wrong i receive in my name , and perhaps in my estate by mr. bs. calumnies ; and therefore am necessitated to write this which i conceive had been fitter for private audience . i do not take on me to know mr. bs. heart : but i wish mr. b. would consider of what spirit he was , when he vented his jerk at my revenues , and whether the phrases of offering a sacrifice to mars , and keeping holy-daies for killing the saints in his epistle to the people of kederminster likely is a most profane , and bitter passage . his quip . pag. . members of this kingdome , or ( to please you ) common-wealth pag. . of baptizing naked maides in bewdley pag. . your feete will take cold or your heart heat , &c. savour not more of an heathen satyrists vain wit , then a christian preachers zealours spirit . he saith that he perceives by one passage in my antidote pag. . i am offended at him for diminishing my esteeme : for i complain , &c. but the words there are no complaint , and if i imagined amisse i am sorry that i did so surmise . sect . ix . in my alleading peter de bruis and others as antipaedobaptists . years ago , is no untruth . but there is a foule sin mr. b. chargeth me with when he saith in his history my reports are untruths , and page . he chargeth me with very many palpable grosse untruths which i either knew or might to be so . two he hath selected as most remarkable : the first is , that the lying papists do accuse the albigenses and waldenses ( our first reformers ) to be witches , buggerers , sorcerers , and to deny infant-baptisme , &c. now what doth mr. t. but perswade the world , that the papists accusations of these were true in this , &c. is it railing to say , that this dealing is starke brazen-faced and unconscionable : and after he stiles it horrible foulnesse of dealing with other words , he that dare do thus what dare he not ? &c. and page . a most unconscionable jesuitical trick to seduce poor ignorant soules . to which i answer , my words examen part . . sect . . tend to prove , that there were some that opposed infant-baptisme . years ago , who were both godly men , and had godly societies joined with them : nor do i see cause to recede from the same opinion notwithstanding what either doctor usher , mr. m. or mr. b. have said to the contrary . i do no where charge the waldenses , but onely cite in my examen part . . sect . . cassanders , and osianders words in my exercit . of the albigenses . but let us consider what is brought to the contrary , . for berengarius , deodrinus , leodiensiis took it up as a common fame . . it is not found charged in synods against him . . that it appears to doctor usher , they who were charged in those dayes to hold that baptisme did not profit to salvation held nothing but this , that baptisme doth not conferre grace by the work wrought . yet durandus leodicensis in the d. tome of the bibliothica patrum the last book in his epistle to henry king of france makes it such a fame as filled all their eares , praiseth the king of france for calling a councel against him and bruno by reason of it . nor are doctor ushers words as mr. m. recites them , that it appeared to him , but nec aliud videntur negavisse , &c. which is lesse then to say it appeared to him . and for his conjecture it may be answered by another conjecture , that it seems rather berengarius did at first discerne the vanity of infants baptisme as arising from austins errour about the necessity of it , and not much used till after his daies : yet finding the opposition of the corporal presence in the eucharist too hard a businesse being forced to recant by pope nicholas , it 's likely he concealed his opinion of infant-baptisme ; to which conjecture cassanders conceit in his preface to the duke of gulick and cleve before his testimonies for infant-baptisme is somewhat like , that though he overthrew baptism of little ones , yet he brought it not into publique , because as guitmund saies , he knew , that the eares of the worst men would not brook that blasphemy . i also related a speech of the same cassander concerning the albigenses , besides which in my exercitation i alleadged the words of lucas osiander accusing the albigenses as agreeing with anabaptists . and to shew that there was some reason for what i averred , to wit that there were others that made head against infant-baptisme before baltasar pacimontanus , i alleadged bernard serm. . in cantica . epis. . to hildefonsus earle of st. giles , petrus cluniacensis his epistle to three bishops of france , and in my antidote sect . . eckbertus schovangiensis his seventh sermon adversus catharos in auctario biblioth . patrum tom . . against these allegations mr. m. excepts and mr. b. le ts flie at me as before : neither deny that i rightly cite the authors . but . that the authors were lying papists . . that no impartial authors so charge them . . that they did bely them in other things that upon report these with other things were charged on them . . that the councels charge them not with this . . that other historians charge not the waldenses . . that their confessions acquit them . . that i do but joine with malicious papists to take up any the falsest slander to defend my cause by it . for answer hereto i will not return railing for railing , but this i say and leave it to indifferent men ( if there be any ) to judge between us whether of us be in the right . cassander was never accounted , that i ever read , one of those railing lying papists mr. b. mentions ; but as impartial a man as any papist living in his time . maximilian the second emperour who favoured protestants more then any emperour prized him . his study was reconciliation and a middle way , which mr. b. professeth to be his . mr. b. page . saith , he spake the best of all parties that he might displease none . bernard is by mr. b. himself page . stiled a pious man. petrus cluniacensis was though a zealous papist , yet thought fit by illyricus to be reckoned among witnesses of truth in his catalogue . they are as impartial authors ( specially bernard ) as that age yielded ; if these be not taken for witnesses of things in their times , i know not how protestants will make up their catalogue of witnesses for them in all ages . protestant writers do frequently alledge these very authors for other things . mornay in his mysterie of iniquity progress . . cites these very writings against papists . i conceive mr. m. mr. b. think they said true , when bernard charged them that they derided prayer for the dead , invocation of saints , purgatory : and cluniacensis that they excepted against altars , adoring of crosses , the masse , chanting inquires , praying for the dead . if they be to be believed in so many , why not in this , which they put first ? lucas osiander epit. hist. eccl. cent. . lib. . cap. . anno christi . cites cluniacensis for the same thing . eckbertus saith when he was canou at bon he with his companion bertoly did often speak with them whom he refutes , sayes in his sermon that they alleadged against infant-baptisme mat. . . mark. . , . though i make no question but that they bely them at least some of them in other things , some upon report , as cluniacansis , that they denyed some of the scripture , it may be saith osiaander , because they denyed the apocryphal writings , or perhaps because they denied arguments valid from the rites of the old testament ; some upon false inferences , which is a frequent thing in writers to make the consequences they gather from their writings the tenets of the authors they impugne ; some it may be out of that abuse of charging those tenets and practises upon all of the same profession , which is too true of some , as that all christians did lewd practises , because the gnosticks did so , that all anabaptists are wicked because those of munster , copp , and some others proved so , in which way mr. b. walkes page . &c. ( for which the lord forgive him ) yet it seemes utterly unlikely to me , that in this petrus de bruis and henricus and their followers should be belied , when so many of chief account in their time from several places charge them with denying infant-baptisme , and rebaptizing , petrus cluniacensis writes to . bishops of france , and bernard to the earle of st. gyles of purpose against them for this reason , bernard and cluniacensiis put it for their prime error , petrus cluniacensis and eckbertus produce , and take on them to answer their allegations against infant-baptisme , but not so ( as i remember ) any allegations against the scriptures or marriage , which they charge them to deny , and therefore it 's likely they wrong them in these , not in that . as for the albigenses and waldenses , it might be true that some might be against infant-baptisme , yet others not , some following peter de bruis , others waldus ; as it was in the reformation , when some followed luther , others zwinglius in the points of the eucharist , images , &c. or it may be that they all at the beginning held so , but after left it , which seemes to be the conceit of cassander ubi suprà . and yet in the old book wherein their doctrince is cited by illyricus in his catalog . test . verit . printed argentinae . pag. , . there are some speeches , which illyricus is faine by glosses to free from the opinion of antipaedobaptisme : but whether the waldenses were antipaedopatists or no what i did alleadge was rightly done , not with a brazen face or seared conscience , or out of a desire to take up any slaunder or joine with any party to defend my cause , as mr. b. doth most unbrotherly insinuate , yea in my examen part . . sect . . before i cite bernard and cluniacensis , i have these words : now although he charge them with denying marriage & abstaning from meates , yet you may smell out of his own words that this was but a calumny : but because by the reasons given i am induced to conceive notwithstanding mr. ms. and mr. bs. allegations that peter de bruis and henricus , and other godly persons and societies were . yeares ago antipaedobaptists ; yea i conceive as good a catalogue of antipaedobaptists may be made almost in all ages as may be made for protestants against many popish corruptions , and better then antiprelatists can make against episcopacy . and this i dare still to do , and marvel mr. b. dare bring such railing accusation , to which i onely returne , the lord rebuke him . the other untruth if not malice mr. b. chargeth me with , is concerning my dealing with himself , when i had in my valedictory sermon and antidote shewed how impertinently the . monsters in new england were brought as evidences of gods judgements against anabaptists i added in my sermon , one of the errors condemned in new england is the . [ to be justified by faith is to be justified by works ] which i moved to be considered whether it were not near mr. bs. doctrine aphorisme . of justific . and in my antidote sect . . page . said it is near to it . hereupon mr. b. adjudgeth this dealing so grosse , as he never found in any jesuite , a shamlesse charge , and page . the vile ebullition of rancor and malice in a most evident falshood , that hath left no roome for blushing . and then cleares himself from the sense in which the antinomists held it , and then addes . now what doth mr. t. but bring this as the same tenet with mine ? when it is even directly contrary . to which i answer , mr. b. page . in these words [ your language about the absolutenesse of the covenant is too like many of the tenets of the antinomists in n. e. ] useth the same dealing with me , which he chargeth me with towards himself . for he doth or might know when i say with many divines the covenant is absolute , i meane it as they do in respect of the first promise , heb. . . i will write my lawes in their hearts , which doctor twisse and many other prove must be absolute or else the grace of god must be given according to mans desert as the pelagians held , which thing i expresse plainly in my examen page . whereas the antinomians make it absolute in respect of justification , in which i am assured that mr. b. knew by conferences with me that i was against them , and yet he chargeth me with symbolizing with them . but recrimination is no purgation . . it is not true that i bring it as the same tenet with mr. bs. but neare it : which is so true , that however their in tent and his were contrary , yet their words are the same . for mr. b. aph. . and in the first edition of the saints everlasting rest page . saith , doubtlesse the gospel takes faith for obedience to all gospel-precepts , of which the workes , james . . of giving food or clothing to a brother are a part : which if true , he that is justified by faith is justified by works , and so mr. bs. proposition is the same with the antinominians , however he used it to a contrary end : it 's the same medium though mr. b. prove one conclusion by it , and the antinomians another , and i think is condemned by the censure of them of n. e. in mr. bs. sense as well as the antinomians . but mr. b. goes about to clear himself from error in it and singularly , and then saith , how can mr. t. have ground to think that no minister in england is of my judgement ? and then challengeth me to confute the doctrine of his book , or leaves to judge whether i be not a meere empty calumniator . and addes , that these words of mine [ i am sure in his letter to me , he saith he was hissed at from all parts of the kingdome ] are a relation like the rest from a bitter roote so most falsely , when i had his letters , which might have directed me to speak truth , that the words [ from all parts of the kingdome ] are my addition , which is become ordinary with me . then mentions the occasion of the passage in his letters , my offer of help to him for dividing ends , but he thought he had no need of my help , and was resolved not to engage with a renter of the church . to which i answer , . my exceptions against his doctrine in his aphorismes have been sent to him afore his death , though not to answer his challenge , yet at the motion of his postscript . i conceive he erres , . in making justification by faith to be onely in law title . . in making a first and after continued justification . . in making it , a continued , not instantaneous act . . in making obedience to all gospel-precepts an essentiall part of justifying faith , and not a fruite onely . . i did no where say that i thought no minister in england is of his judgement , though i said i thought he had not made one minister of his judgement . . to the crimination of my speaking falsely i will set down his own-words in his letter to me , [ that pamphlet of justification i well knew was likely to blast my reputation with most divines , and the issue hath answered my expectation : i am now so hissed at by them , that i feele temptation enough to schisme in my discontents ] . i had hot his letter by me when i spake those words not out of a bitter roote but to answer the prejudice against me as conceived singular . but there was no falshood in my speech [ by most divines ] and [ from all parts of the kingdome ] being equipollent . and if this be to adde falsely , our lord christ will be found to adde falsely mat. . , . &c. my offer of helpe to him in what we agreed was not for dividing ends , but because of his complaint of weaknesse of body and want of time for study . it seemes he accounted me a renter of the church afore my preaching at bewdley the many sermons on mat. . . against infant-baptisme , for discovering of the error of it in my bookes without other practises . it appeares thereby that even then when he seemed to be most friendly he had hard thoughts of me , and however he protest of his love , yet his misinterpreting so many of the things i have done or said to him , and at last casting up his accusations in his book in charging me with frequent untruths , schisme , pride , worse then the devil in accusing my own children , with bitter scoffes , and insulting tauntes , with other aggravations and expressions beyond brotherly and neighbourly respects , yea i may i think say , a sober minde are undeniable evidences of want of love to me , and candour towards me , if we may judge what is in a man by his deedes rather then by his words . as for his pretence of zeale for god , the peace of the church , and the duty of brotherly reproof , were he never so much in the right , and i never so much in the wrong for my judgement , yet these could not justifie his carriage to me . and if other ministers deale with me as mr. b. mr. m. mr. baillee , mr. geree have done without doing me right after their false criminations of me , i shall have temptation to think that they have learned a principle like the jesuites , to think it no sin to say as bad as may be against a supposed anabaptist for the paedobaptists cause . sect . x. that mr. bs. charge of accusing and disputing my children out of the covenant of christ is vaine ; and some inquiry is made how they are in the covenant . i have now gone through mr. bs. epistles and history , vindicated my self and the truth from many objections . there are many other things which are scattered in his answer to my valedictory oration and corrective of my antidote which are somewhat besides the dispute it self , which i shall rather point at then insist on because many are scarce worth the taking notice of , but for the esteem mr. b. and his book have gotten with men . page . what he speaks of my exceeding high and passionate disposition was but his misdeeming likely upon misinformation , neither my words nor carriage shewed it . page . what the supposed girds were is set down before out of his now printed book , whereby it seems my few disciples ( as he miscalls them ) are at least excused , and no notorious falshood chargeable on them : that which he saith , i forced him to the disputation i conceive is not right ; how it came to passe is shewed above ; that there were thousands of people there i think is overlasting : the tale of the dispute is made to prepossesse men with prejudice . i told him before that such a dispute was not fit to satisfy , and i gave him my reasons , and i propounded the way used at the conference at the hague , judged best by dr. raynolds : but the way mr. b. took he liked best , and his carriage of it looks like an artifice cunningly contrived to please the common sort of schollers and others of which few can discerne between sleight and solid proofs . but i doubt not my answer will prove mr. bs. arguments to be meer trifles . the untruths charged on me page . are upon his mistake of the words written before him . i said not [ to be used by mr. b. ] but by others mentioned next before . that his passage was like to be the beginning of a schism among those of bewdley was no jest , but a conjecture which the event hath proved true : how he misrepresents my words of charging their blood on them , and hypocrisy to them is before shewed : it 's not true i had been long time working a fearful schisme , unlesse by accident , it being true which mr. allen and mr. shepherd say advertisement to the reader , pag. . scarce truth or error can now adaies be received but in a way of schisme . his lines were likely to be the beginning of a schisme , in that it was taken as if anabaptists and with them my self were adjudged hereticks by him : which if it were an untruth , yet it is so like a truth , that i think he that shall read in one period what mr. b. sayes of hereticks , that they end in wicked lives , and in the next find the instance in anabaptists , and after me named as one of them will conceive he called them and me hereticks . and however he protest he doth not , yet his asserting me a sect-master page . and his inclining to vossius , &c. their definition of an heretick page . and his words page . make me think he comes not much short of counting me an heretick . to his allegations of my speeches concerning mr. m. and independents i have answered before . i may say the doctrine was one of the first heresies , yet not censure the men that hold it as heretical ; it 's one thing to be formally an heretick , and another thing materially , to hold that which denominated a party heretical . in my examen i tell mr. m. and now mr. b. that i think none of those glorious lights mentioned held mr. ms. position . i do not judge all hereticks that be against my opinion , but that they may be more justly stiled heretiques then my self . mr. bs. quicknesse in replying afore he weighed my speeches or perhaps my scantnesse in expressions out of warinesse what i said to him ( whom i found very captious ) hath i perceive created me these hard censures . that which mr. b. saies page . he dare say of me i dare say is false . the inference which he calls strange is none of mine : the passage and time of writing it do still prevaile with me to conceive that he wanted a spirit of love through ill surmises of me . page . infant-sprinking or pouring water on them will not be proved baptisme . i shall not ease sinners that own their infant-sprinkling as baptism by my assertion : that i tell them they never sinned against their baptisme and engagement is a fiction of mr. b. in which he hath a pretty art . i said not mr. b. gave us a title to make us odious , but [ that might make us odious ] which imports the term might make us odious , not that mr. b. had that purpose in using it . page . he hath a discourse from the end of the accuser and the opposition of justification to accusation and condemnation to prove , that it is proper language to say he accuseth another , who denies a supposed priviledge to be due to him . by the same reason the accusers accusation may be said to be condemnation , and execution too , for that is the end of the accuser . i had thought [ accusation ] noted the accusers act , not his end ; that justification is opposed to accusation and condemnation shewes they are distinguished , the one being the charging with a fault , the other passing sentence . i must confesse i yet understand not his language of accusing without charging with a fault , nor do i think any law-dictionary doth so define accusation . i do not think the non-visible churchmembership of infants is poenal , or deprivation of a mercy now , it being only by the alteration of the church-frame . whether the not acknowledging infants visible churchmembership be a denying a mercy reall or imaginary , whether there be injustice , scorne , or any error in my tenet about it , is to be examined in answering his book . what i do hold i do it not without natural affection to my children , out of conscience of maintaining truth . the very same he chargeth upon me for denying infant-baptisme might mutatis mutandis by the same reason be charged on him for denying infant-communion . i do judge this rhetorical or satyrical passage of mr. b. to be a meer trifling in a serious matter . that which is said page . of my disputing my children out of the church by denying them to be visible church-members is mr. bs mistake in defining visible church-membership as i shall shew in examining the . chap. of the first part of his book . it 's not true i deny all infants to be in covenant with the lord their god , or that title to salvation which upon promise they have in point of law . mr. bs. conditional covenant gives no title till the condition be put , which he will not say is true of any infants but the elect , who alone are children of the promise in the apostles language , rom. . . pag. . he saith , i do all i can to keep infants out of the visible church , but i deny that to hinder their baptisme is to keep them out of the visible church , or that to baptize them is to bring them in . if it be , why have they not the communion according to that which we reade , cor. . ? are janizaries who were baptized children of greek christians therefore visible members of the christian church ? mr. b. though he had the copy of my sermon , yet misrepresents my words . i said not , that it is the devils part to say that the infants of believers are members of the visible church , but my words were [ it being an error , and such pernicious effects following , that people think therefore they are christians because baptized , ( which opinion of theirs is confirmed by mr. bs. words . for they are visible christians that are baptized into the name of christ , if they have not since by word or workes renounced him ) and rest therein , and are thereby held in carnal presumption , we ought rather to think those that maintain infant-baptisme play the devils part ] which expressions of mine being added , the vanity of mr. bs. arguings will appear . that which he hath page . [ that it is no more thankes to me then to satan , that i keep not god from making promise to his people ] which intimates i would do it if it were in my power ( for if there be no more thanks to me then satan , it is because there 's no more hindrance in me from doing it then in satan̄ , and so the same will ) is a suggestion that exceedes all moderation , as if mr. b. were bent not onely to rake up all the dirt he can to cast in my face , but also to put an ill construction on all i say . my answer was a faire answer to a virulent charge . in . senses i conceived it might be said that infants are disputed out of the covenant of christ : the one as if my dispute made christ not covenant to them , the other as if it made them not covenant to christ. i said , neither was true . what saies mr. b. ? . election is not a covenant . nor did i say it was . and then addes [ nor are they in covenant because elected ] which speech is most false , contrary to rom. . . where [ the children of the promise ] is all one with [ the elect ] as the analysis shewes , as may be seene in the authors cited by me in my examen part . . sect . . besides whom more may be produced . i will add two now . mr. rutherfurd in that piece of his which is the exactest of his workes . exercit . apol. . c. . num . . soli electi dicuntur in scripturis foederati , filii & haeredes promissionis , rom. . . the elect alone are said in the sctiptures to be in covenant , children , and heires of the promise , rom. . . and mr. norton in resp . ad apollon . c. . pag. . objectum foederis gratiae sunt soli electi . the object of the covenant of grace are the elect alone . next he saith , that i deny that god covenanteth with our infants to be their god in christ , and to take them to be his peculiar people , which is the covenant he formerly made with infants , and which he now affirmes . what he affirmes distinctly i cannot well tell : he doth so confusedly expresse himself in his bookes . he distinguished between an absolute and a conditional covenant of grace . the absolute he saies belongs onely to the elect , but this he will not be thought to meane when he speakes of infants of believers being in covenant , or baptism's sealing of it : yea he blames me often for so conceiving of him , and page . he disputes against that tenet as my fifth error . the conditional is a covenant of justification and salvation upon-condition of faith : this he saith is sealed by baptisme , not the other , and this he makes belonging to all the posterity of adam , elect and reprobate . and this it seemes most likely he meanes , when he speaks of infants of believers being in covenant , because it is that which baptisme seales , and they that are in covenant are to be sealed thereby . but according to this conditional covenaat either all are in covenant with god whether elect or reprobate , infants of believers or unbelievers , or else none till they performe the condition , which is faith , and so not all infants of believers . [ mr. b. in his additions to the saints everlasting rest , part . . sect . . prop. . a conditional promise puts nothing in being , till the performance of the condition ; nor gives any certainty , but of such performance . ] as for any covenant of god or christ besides these containing onely the promise of visible church-membership , or such like imagined priviledges in the new testament to infants of gentile believers i take to be a phantasme , and when i come to examine mr. bs. opinion of infants visible church-membership ( which i could not do till i had his book ) i doubt not to make it appear to be so , that not one text he hath brought proves such a promise , and that he hath not proved more to belong to infants by promise then i acknowledge , and yet neither visible church-membership , nor right to baptisme in infancy ordinarily will follow thereon . as for that he saith in general termes , that i deny that god covenanteth with infants of believers to be their god in christ , and to take them to be his peculiar people , is said like a calumniator , my words being so plaine to the contrary in that very place . in a word , i have said that the covenant or promise of regeneration , sanctification , forgivenesse of sins , adoption , and eternal life is not made to all the natural children of the most godly believers , no not of abraham himself , or to any barely because they are their children , but because elect , or believers in their own persons , which mr. m. and mr. geree in their answers to me confesse to be true , as being expresly delivered , rom. . . and by the streame of protestant writers maintained . but i deny not that many infants of believers are in the covenant of grace : nor dare i say that no infants of unbelievers are in the covenant of christ in this sense : i onely say i neither know which of the one or the other are thus in the covenant of grace . as for the arguings that he that denies infants baptisme doth deny them to be in the covenant of grace , they are built on these fancies that to be a seale of the covenant of grace is of the essence of baptisme , that there is a certain connexion between being in the covenant of grace and right to be baptized : which with other hypotheses of paedobaptists i shall examine in my review . mr. b. addes , that i flatly deny infants covenanting with god , whereas my words were farre from such flat denial being onely these [ for my part i know not how any person should covenant with christ till he promise , &c. ] which were not such a peremptory or flat denial as mr. b. saies they are , and they are true , it being against all experience , that infants do so covenant : but on the contrary when they are baptized cry and shew their unwillingnesse , as august . lib. . de remiss . et mer. pecc . c. . flendo et vagiendo cùm in eis mysterium celebratur ipsis mysteriis vocibus obstrepunt . then mr. b. saies , i disswade parents from so engaging their children in covenant , and promising in their names , which yet they ever did in the church before christ , and it was their duty to do , as deut. . and other places shew . but in which words i perswade parents not to do ( as he saies i do ) he doth not shew , my words are there all assertory of what i conceive infants cannot do in their own persons , not a word of perswasion or disswasion to the parents or any other . and for that which is added [ then it seemes you know not how a father should engage his child by covenanting in his name ] and after [ you would have no parents to engage their children solemnly to god in christ by covenanting in their names ] there is not a word of it in that place . 't is true in my sermon intituled fermentum pharisaeorum , i gave a little touch against the use of sureties at baptisme according to the doctrine of the catechisme in the common prayer-book , that they did promise that they should believe , &c. which i conceived onely belongs to christ as surety of the better covenant , heb. . . but i never denied , that the elders of a nation may engage solemnly the posterity even the unborne to take the lord for their god ( but this i rather take to be an adjuration under a curse if they do not , then a promise for them that they shall ) nor that a parent may engage his child by a promise of his own endeavour that he shall ; and that the child is engaged thereby : but not by vertue of the fathers promise , but by vertue of the obligation of the thing promised , the fathers promise is an incitement to do it the rather , but makes not the child bound to do it of it self , but onely because the thing is a duty , which he were bound to did the father promise for him or not . but i deny , that this makes a visible church-member , or that in nature or law as his childs act according to the gospel for his being admitted a visible church-member . now mr. b. hastily answering me jumbles things together , and as one impatient of considering what i say , chargeth me with what i avow not , and then concludes scoffically , and i pray you how well do you free your self from this charge ? should i imitate him i should cry shamelesse foul dealing , &c. but i am resolved to examine his writing , not to follow his fashion pag. . he saies , i did not distinguish of disciples , or yield infants disciples in any sense , & if i acknowledge them disciples in any sense , i should speak out . to which i say , i put in those words in my sermon in that sense , christ appointed disciples to be baptized , to intimate that i did not deny , but infants might be disciples by the immediate secret work of gods spirit , though not in the ordinary & mediate way of preaching the gospel , about which the rule mat. . . is set . as for mr. bs. sense of a disciple of christ without learning christs doctrine , of a servant of god without service actively or passively , a disciple remotely by the fathers being a disciple it is nothing like the use of the word [ disciple ] in the new testament or the terme [ servant of god ] as equipollent to [ a disciple ] and no marvel i should mistake mr. b. who used termes in a sense i never met with in the new testament , and i still conceive to be a piece of new gibberish . and when he saith , he took servant , and disciple according to their relative formal nature , and not either with the accidental consideration of active or passive , it is no marvel i should be at a stand what to answer him using termes in such an uncouth non-sense acception as i never met with before . ( for if the trumpet give an uncertain sound , who shall prepare himself to battel ? ) and it seemes to me a grosser absurdity which mr. b. hath in those words , then any of those he chargeth me with , to take disciple and servant in their relative formal nature without learning or service active or passive ; whereas mr. b. himselfe page . where he saies , the relation of a servant , disciple , souldier , husbandman , trades-man remaines when the act ceaseth for a time , yet expressely saith , the relation and so the denomination is from the act of service , learning , &c. and yet he would have infants to be denominated disciples and servants of god without their act of learning or service , or capacity of actual learning or service in an ordinary way : and he is not ashamed to call learning or service actively or passively accidental to the title or denomination of a disciple or servant . which is a monstrous absurdity to make a denomination without the forme denominating , yea to count it accidental to conceive a relation without the foundation , which is all one as to call one a father without begetting , a lord without dominion , a signe without signification , not unlike the riddle vir non vir , percussit non percussit , avem non avem , lapide non lapide , super arbore non arbore , or rather absurdorum absurdissimū oppositum in apposito . and yet this notion of a disciple never proved is the ground work of mr. bs. first . argument , and therefore if i may use mr. bs. words , they are very tractable soules that are led by his notions . page . he thinks strange that a man of my parts should know of no separation to god but by election or calling , he questions whether election be proper separation , he saies that the jewes first-borne were seperated by a law , and men now by dedication separate goods to god , that he meanes separation neither by election nor extraordinary or ordinary call , but by the law or covenant of god. to which i reply , mr. b. still abuseth me by leaving out my words [ as the case now stands ] which were put in as remarkable , to exclude that way of separation to god , whereby the first born , priests , goods , &c. were holy as separated to god. election is , alwayes with seperation , that is , differencing one from another , and as election is said to be according to purpose , rom. . . so likewise separation , paul was separated from his mothers wombe , gal. . . according to gods pleasure and purpose , that is by his election : and with this separation infants may be said to be sanctified , as jeremiah ch . . . and so the terme [ holy ] is applied , rom. . . to the jewes then unborne , who were after to be called ver . , , , . and called saints is used cor. . . as for infants of believers whether elect or reprobate outward federal holinesse i know no such , there 's no law or covenant separates every child of a believer to god. according to mr. b. the covenant sealed by baptisme is conditional , and that belongs to all the sons of adam till persons are severed by believing , and unbeliefe : this covenant therefore of it self without putting the condition doth not separate any to god , and so not infants till they be believers : the absolute is onely to the elect , and according to it , and so onely the elect are separated , which are not all , perhaps but a few of the children of believers , but an isaac of all abrahams children , rom. . , , . a law or covenant of god separating all infants of believers barely for their parents faith to be visible members of the christian church is mr. bs. dream , as i shall shew with gods assistance in examing his second argument . sect . xi . about mr. bs. . texts urged impertinently to prove infants visible church-membership . page . he saies it is a palpable untruth which i say , he four texts in his epistle levit. . , . deut. . , . act. . . cor. . . with rom. . . were all he concluded any thing from , meaning in the dispute at bewdley , and saies the hearers know it and is to be seen before . but to my best remembrance with search into the notes i took after , and the notes which were communicated to me it is no untruth . mat. . . i think he alluded to , but i remember not it was urged or any other text besides the forenamed as a medium from which to conclude any proposition to be proved . then he saies , i have been fully answered before , but yet addes concerning levit. . , . . the jewes infants , were infants , and the dispute between us was of the species . answ. . though mr. b. and before him mr. cobbet usually call the sort or ranke of men that are infants the species ; yet other logicians usually call [ man ] the lowest species or kind , and say , age and sex make not another kinde . . but allowing mr. b. and mr. cobbet their language , i say , the dispute is not about the species or kind , to wit , infants as infants , but infants of believers , who are particular persons , and the question as it was rightly stated between me and mr. m. was , whether the infants of believers were to be baptized with christs baptisme by a lawfull minister according to ordinary rule without extraordinary revelation or direction ? and if paedobaptists will maintain their practise , they should make good this proposition , that all the infant-children of professed or inchurched believers are to be baptized with christs baptisme by the law full minister according to ordinary rule . though mr. baillee and mr. b. for some advantage set down this as their proposition to be proved , that some infants are to be baptized . m. b. saies he had proved our priviledges greater then the jewes , and that i deny it not , and that this ( to wit , to be gods servants ) was not peculiar to them . whereas i had proved the contrary from ver . . and the whole chapter is about lawes peculiar to the jews , and ver . , , . going before , shew plainly that this law was peculiar to the jewes , that they and their children should return from servitude under which they were for poverty , at the year of jubilee , and ver . , . plainly restraines it to the children of israel , allowing them to take the children of strangers so journing among them , and therefore proselytes , as an inheritance . and therefore in whatever sense it is meant that they are gods servants , it is meant onely of hebrews , as exod. . . is expressed . i do not conceive , nor any interpreters that i meete with do expound this of a proselyte , but onely of an hebrew borne . if cornelius had children they had not been gods servants in the sense there meant : which is clearly this , that they were his servants in this respect only in that place , in that they were to be disposed of not as men would , but as he onely would , who had right to them by his purchase in bringing them out of egypt , and therefore none can get soveraigne dominion over them ( no not by their voluntary selling themselves ) to prejudice his , as deodat . annot . in levit. . . whence i infer , that it is a most grosse abuse of this scripture in mr. b. to urge it to prove that the infants of gentile believers now are servants to god , related to him as a peculiar people , separated to himself from the world : which is spoken meerly in respect of the hebrew children , and their corporal servitude , which was to be at gods disposing by reason of his redemption of them out of egypt . when he tells me of my accustomednesse to mistakes , it is more true of himself ( as i have often shewed ) yea though the words were written before him . and in this very thing he calls my mistake that he argued thus , whosoever is called gods servant may be baptized , whereas he might have seene if he had taken any care to set down my words rightly , that my words were as his own notary took them , and he hath printed them [ if this be a good argument infants are called servants of god , therefore they are disciples , and must be baptized ] which was his argument either in words or substance . as for the conclusion and argument as he sets it down page . i think it was not urged in the dispute , and i have proved that levit. . . is meant onely of hebrew children , not of gentiles , nor in the sense mr. b. would prove that they are relatively separate to god from the world in the sense as [ god 's servants ] . is equipollent to a disciple of christ. page he calls my answers to his allegation of deut. . , vain , senselesse reavils , and then breaks out into words of pitty to people that take their opinions on my word . to which is i say , that my answers are not vaine , senselesse cavil , will appear in my reply to mr. b. about that text . and as he pitties them that take their opinion on my word , so i pitty them that take their opinion on his word ; or any meer mans word contrary to christs priviledge , mat. . . page . in my words [ adoption ] is printed for [ doctrine ] page . he repeates his frivolous charge of our accusing our children as no disciples of christ , and therefore no christians , and therefore no ground to believe or hope they are saved : thus calumniating me , when i have often said they may be both disciples and christians invisibly , and so have salvation ; and we have great reason to hope they are in gods election by reason of the general indefinite promises of the scripture and gods usual dealing with his people , though there is no certainty either from mr. bs. grounds or mine , sith mr. b. will not say that every visible church-member is saved . all the difference between us is about their visible church-membership , whether the denying that takes away ground of hope of their salvatien : mr. b. saith it doth , because there 's no hope of that persons salvation that doth not seeme to be of the invisible church ; but he that is not of the visible church doth not seeme to be of the invisible . ergo ; but the minor is not true , as he takes the word [ seem ] and by gods assistance i doubt not to shew , when i examine ch . . of part . . his mistake concerning the terme [ visible ] as if it were as much as to appear such in the judgement of probability though not descernad by sense , by which defini-nition the opposite termes [ visible and invisible ] may be confounded , and the terme [ visible ] is used contrary to the common use of writers , whereby he misleades himself and others . then he addes , but mr. t. will say , i believe that it is better that infants are no christians , then that they were . but believe him that list for me . to which i say , i will not do as he often deales with me , charging me as playing the devils part , and worse , but this i say , i know not what to conceive of these words , but that either by gods judicial act of leaving him to himself , out of addictednesse to calumniate , or extream ill opinion of me , or which i much feare notwithstanding all his protestations out of disdainfulnesse of his antagonist and delight in satyrical quips he vented this passage . he cannot shew where ever i used such an impious speech : all i have said is onely this , it is a mercy that our children are not visible church-members as the jews were , because it brought a heavy bondage , and the christian church-constitution of voluntiers is better , nor do our children lose any thing by defect of such visible church-membership . yet if i had said so , that i would say so for the time to come who can say but god ? might i not have repented and altered my speech ? then he goes on to answer my arguing against his allegation of act. . . to prove infants disciples , and calls it silly grounds , insipid arguing , according to his usual rhetorick , whereas the sillinesse ( if any ) is in his own inconsideratenesse of the strength of it . that text serves not mr. bs. turne unlesse it could be proved , that the very act or action which these false teachers did were the cutting with a knife the little skin of the privy member , for no more was done to infants in actual circumcision , nor were they passive subjects of any other action . now mr. bs. argument is from what was done to infants by false teachers that infants are meant by [ disciples , act. . . ] but it is manifest that the false teachers did not cut off that little skin , but the parents of the infants as mr. bs. text shewes , act. . . and the same text ascribing the contrary to paul to that which the false teachers did , shewes it was teaching that was their putting on the yoke : which is more apparent from act. . . where what is said v. . they put the yoke on the necks of the disciples , is ver . . they taught the brethren : the disciples then are the brethren , and the putting on the yoke is the teaching them . my argument is this , that the false teachers did no other thing but teach , now the act there is ascribed to the false teachers onely , not to the parents of infants , none are blamed but they , they are spoken of and to , not the parents ; therefore the putting on of the yoke was not actual circumcision , which was the parents act , not the false teachers : they neither did it , nor by any instrument attempt to do it themselves , though the one might follow on the other . and i dare still appeale to any that are of common understanding , whether that which the false teachers , did act. . . were to infants or parents . and for mr. bs. exceptions , to the first , mr. b. mistakes my confession , i confessed they did not put the yoke eternally , but onely endeavoured it , because though they taught them the necessity of circumcision , yet their doctrine was not received , but i never said to my remembrance , that the phrase of putting on the yoke noted barely their intent or attempt , but the act they did though sine effectu on the disciples : my words are plaine as they are printed , in which it is manifest the putting on of the yoke was by the teaching of the false teachers . as for mr. bs. instances they serve better for me then himself . he that teacheth people to be subject to the turk , though thereby he inslave their infants by consequent , yet the subject recipient of his act are onely the people taught , nor doth any man in that speech understand the infants ; and so it must be said of moses subjecting the children of israel to his law , though by consequent infants were circumcised , yet in this speech moses subjected ( by teaching or commanding ) the children of israel to his law . the terme [ children of israel ] notes onely , or as logicians speake supponitly parents onely . the act of gods calling christ out of egypt is a complex act , noting the sending the angel ; the command to joseph , his carrying christ , whereof christ was the object or terminus , not onely of the command . but the false teachers act. . . was formally the single act of teaching not circumcision , they neither acted it nor attempted it in their own persons , and therefore could have no other subject recipient , but those that were taught , not infants . page . he calls my speech [ that i think mr. b. cannot shew in any one place where the word [ holy ] is taken in his sense for a state or person ( i do conceive i said for the state of a person ) separated to god in that way he would have a person separated to god neither by election nor outward calling , nor any other way that i know of in which holinesse is used for a state separated to god ] a new crotchet of the nature of the rest , and answers it with a quaver , and a jest . his quaver is , is it not enough that i prove it alwayes taken for a separation to god , but i must shew that the word signifies a separation by this or that way or meanes effected ? his jest follows , a man was out of love with his wife , &c. and is not this the same kind of reasoning with yours ? to which i reply , it is not enough . for . mr. b. sayes , that holinesse is alwayes taken for a separation to god. . i am sure that it is taken for chastity , thess. . , . and mr. b. denies it not page . onely saies it is a part of sanctity , though ver . . beza translates it , id est , ut abstineatis à fornicatione , which shewes the holinesse there is no other then chastity , or at least chastity in the first place , which is plain from ver . . where it is , to possesse the vessel , that is , the body in holinesse , that is , chastity , which the opposition to the lust of concupisence , ver . . and uncleannesse , ver . do shew . and this acknowledged by illyricus in his clavis script . on the word sanctus , piscator in his scholie on thess. . . and others which i shall produce in my review . . then it must needs follow according to mr. bs. position , that to be chaste is to be holy in a state of separation to god. but i suppose mr. b. will not say every chaste person is in a state saparated to god which may intitle him to baptisme , therefore it is not enough for mr. bs. purpose to prove a person any way holy or in a state separated to god , that thereby he be intitled to baptisme : but he must shew the way how he is holy , and that this intitles to baptisme . the jewes hereafter to be called are holy , rom. . . by election . mr. cobbet just vindic . chap. sect . . page . the jewes yet to come were in pauls time holy federally , rom. . , . not actually , but intentionally , yet not then baptizable : the mede● , sai . . . are called gods sanctified ones , yet not to be admitted visible church-members . i further add , that in his general sense [ legitimate ] might also signifie a state separate to god , as being that onely posterity he allowes of according to his institution of marriage , mal. . . which is very frequently called holy by divines . and therefore letting passe his jocular tale , my exception or answer to his reasoning from cor. . . deserves a better refutation then he hath yet given . then he makes me say , that no scripture speakes of holinesse in his sense , whereas my words ( as above ) were more wary , mr. b. i think cannot shew , &c. and then tells me , that the jewes infants are called the holy seed , and that by covenant or law , which is his sense , and then chargeth me with laying by conscience and common modesty , having little tendernesse of conscience in accusing his will in charging him with a grosse falshood , that he was willing to carry things in generals , and not to tell distinctly how infants are holy and in a state separated to god , whereas he told me he meant holy by law or covenant . notwithstanding which i may yet conceive him willing to carry things in generals , sith this very explication is in generals , the law or covenant , as he calls it , being not distinctly named and shewed where it is , and upon what conditions that state of separation to god which infants have is ascertained , whether upon their own act or parents , and if upon parents whether immediate or mediate , whether to the truth and reality or profession , nor wherein that state of separation to god consists , or what is the benefit of it : all or of some which perhaps i apprehend mr. b. rightly in now , yet not till i had read over his book again and again , and pickt out his meaning by comparing many passages together : which because he did not then , nor since in his printed writings put together as others do in their theses they maintaine . i guessed he was willing to carry things ▪ in the general , and if i did say so ( which mr. b. and i must take on his scribes word ) in my sermon without any caution , mr. b. might have imagined that i meant it with this caution ( which is ordinarily allowed in constructions of such speeches , where thematter leades us to conceive them intended ) that i conceived him unwilling : which might be the more allowed to me in that speech which i had not a word written when i spake it ; which of all other mr. b. is least fit to except against me for , having in print offended in this way in worse manner , page . but to the matter now we conceive his meaning , i still say the same , that i think he cannot shew one place , where [ holy ] is taken for separated to god in his sense . he alleadgeth that the jewes infants are called the holy seed : though he name not the text , ( which had been fit ) yet i guesse by his words page . he meanes ezra . . in which place onely and isaiah . . i find this terme in scripture . but ezra . . doth not speak of infants , but such a holy seed as mingled themselves with the people of the land , which was in marriage , which will not be said of infants ; nor is [ holy seed ] there meant of a state separated to god in mr. bs. sense by covenant promising it to believers , that their infants should be visible church-members : for this holinesse was a state of difference or separation onely by legal descent from israel , not by the faith of next parents , and it did intitle them to a peculiar priviledge of being reckoned in the genealogy of israel , or in full communion with the common-wealth of israel in respect of inheritance , marriage , &c. though they fell to idolatry , as jeroboam , ahaz , manasseh , &c. did . but proselytes though believers were not the holy seed there meant , they were not forbidden to marry the daughters of the people of the land . yea the children of the holy seed begotten upon prohibited women , as the daughters of the nations there mentioned , were with their mothers to be put away as unholy according to the law , ezra . . contrary to the resolution af the apostle , cor. . , , . which evidently shewes that the jewes are called the holy seed by their descent according to the law of moses , and that the term [ holy seed , ezra . . ] is all one with [ legitimate ] and if the apostle did allude to that place in ezra it serves more for my sense then mr. bs. and the sense may be conceived this , if the unbelieving husband were not as sanctified to his wife so as that they might lawfully live together , then the children should be unclean , that is illegitimate , as those in ezra : but now , that is it being determined that the law of moses concerning prohibiting marriage with some people is voided , and unequal marriage is not dissolved , your children are holy that is legitimate . his evasion page . about a judgement of charity will be found insufficient to avoid my exception against his exposition , which is mistaken by him ; nor will it at all smite me , my exception being not as he imagines , that upon a judgement of charity concerning the sincerity of a persons profession he is not to be taken for a real believer : but that mr. b. determining that the unbeliever is sanctified onely to the believer , who is not onely such according to the judgement of charity , but also really such before god ; and the apostles consequence including this proposition according to his exposition , that the children of such onely are holy , that is , after mr. b. visible church-members and baptizable , of necessity all other by his exposition are prohibited to be baptized ; and therefore of necessity he that will follow the rule according to mr. bs , exposition must know the reality of the parents faith , which being impossible to be known without special revelation , he may baptize none without it . now mr. b. answers not at all to the main thing , how by his exposition a man can go upon certainty that he doth his duty : but how without respect to his exposition a man may take a person for a sincere believer , and so baptize him . but this serves not his turne in this case . for it is the duty of the baptizer to baptize onely visible church-members : this mr. b. will not deny : now of infants who can make no profession , their visible church-membership is known onely by their parents believing ; but according to mr. bs. exposition of the apostle , those infants onely are visible church-members whose parents are real believers before god : no hypocrite if mr. b. rightly expound the apostle can make his infant a visible church-member , and baptizable , for his children are uncleane . but it is not possible for a baptizer to know the parent to be a real believer before god without special revelation , and therefore without it he cannot be certain he doth his duty according to mr. bs. suppositions ; yea he may be certain he doth not his duty : for he may be certain he cannot observe the rule of baptizing onely the infants of those that are real believers before god , it being certain some in the visible church are hypocrites , and he is not to baptize the infants of such , if mr. b. rightly expound the apostle , they being unclean , that is , no visible church-members , nor baptizable , and therefore he may be certain in baptizing promiscuously infants of visible professors that he doth not his duty , if mr. bs. exposition be good , but sins against the apostles determination , in baptizing those that are not baptizable by the apostles determination as mr. b. expounds him , and if he be intelligent against his own light : but cannot be certain he doth his duty , because he cannot know which are baptizable , those infants being onely baptizable according to the apostles resolution as expounded by mr. b. who are the children of believers not onely so accounted in the judgement of charity , but also really such before god , which he cannot know without special revelation . sect . xii . that mr. b. unjustly chargeth me to be a sect-master . to his virulent and most unrighteous speech of me page . that he hath as good evidence that i am a sect-master , as that i am a christian ; i have replied before sect . . and now i say further , that my conscience acquits me from the guilt of making any sect ; and my proceedings at first with my brethren in the ministery manifested in my examen and apology , in my applying my self to the assemby and mr. m. do fully clear my aime , to have been reformation with peace and concurrence in the work of christ with them : ( which course mr. b. approves pag. . ) and if my writings had been fairely examined , it is very probable they had not bin printed . what i did , i was necessitated to , by their sleighting the thing , aed determining contrary to my positions , in a magisterial manner , notwithstanding my writings ; whereby it became poenal to hold my tenet ; which enforced me to print . and yet neither then did i meddle with the practise till mr. baillee awakened me , by telling me , my infant-baptisme must be null , by my principles . nor have i baptized ( save one nearely related to me , ) but where i was chosen a preacher ; where i conceived my self bound to baptize ( by christs rule , mat. . . ) those disciples to whom i preached : nor did i joine any in communion , till i saw that those that did their duty in being baptized , were rejected and made odious , with ministers and people , whereby they are necessitated to join in communion by themselves . and if any others do not joine with them , it is partly because notwithstanding i am for my own particular much inclined to unite in the communion , those that differ in judgement about infant-baptisme , according to my judgement expressed in my apology sect . . and mr. jesseys determinations in his book intitled a store-house of provision to further resolution in sundry cases of conscience ; yet because it is manifest from acts . , . cor. . , , . & . . persons were baptized afore they brake bread together , and justin. martyr . apolog . . ad antoninum hath these words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , this food is with us called the eucharist or thanksgiving : of which it is not allowed for any other to partake , but him that believeth those things to be true which are taught by us , and is washed with that washing which is for the forgivenesse of sins and unto new birth , and that lives so as christ hath delivered , which passage is alleadged by mr. b. page . though maimedly . and augustin . tom . . de pecc . mer. et remiss . lib. . cap. . adsacramentum mensae domini nemo ritè nisi baptizatus accedit . and lumb . sent . l. . dist . . hoc coeleste manna non nisi renatis praestari debet . and the generality of popish and protestant divines hold so . mr. b. page . we have no warrant by word or example in all the new testament , to admit any member into the church , without baptisme ; and therefore the taking any without baptisme to the lords supper , will but strengthen men in their opinion , that their infant-sprinkling is sufficient ; and partly , because by mr. bs. book and other meanes men are so possessed with the restoring of baptisme , as if it were an error , schisme , a practise accursed by god , that consciencious timorous men do of themselves shunne us , and others furiously oppose us ; therefore i see a necessity of desisting from that enterprise , yet resolved to join with other christians of different judgement in what agreement & communion i can with a good conscience in prayer , preaching , disciplin , &c. and i speak unfeignedly notwithstanding all the injuries done me by mr. m. mr. geree , mr. baillee , and now beyond all the rest by mr. b. yet my heart is towards them to promote with them the work of christ according to the solemn covenant , & i think mr. b. & others are not ignorant that i have as absolutely and diligently opposed , if not so happily , the popish , arminian , antinomian , familistical ; socinian errors now broached as other men . what i said in my apology sect . . i say still , i seek unity with truth , and i am certain that mr. b. hath most injuriously accused me as unpeaceable , whether it hath come from others suggestions or his own misconceits of me . to that which is from pag. . to . is answered before . sect . xiii . that it is not a right way to judge of the truth of a doctrine by strange accidents , though wonderous . page . he drives on more furioso , having recited my words concerning unsafenesse to judge of doctrine by such accidental strange things as mrs. dyers and hutchinsons monstrous birthes in new england , and alle adged an example of determining that god was against the marriage of priests by the falling of a house , and added , we are to judge god may order accidents for stumbling blocks , he flies out thus , will not this man rather fight against heaven , and dispute against miracles then let go his error ? and then in his pathetick rhetorick insinuates , as if this speech of mine were weakening the credit of gods testimony in wonderous providences , not farre from the blasphemy against the holy ghost , that i am fallen so farre as freely to sacrifice gods glory to my fancies , and then brings in exceptions against me in four things , . that i call them onely strange accidents . . compare it to the falling of a house . . that i disswade from judging of doctrine by such accidents . . yea rather would have men think that they are stumbling blocks that men should not receive the truth . and then discourseth that the monsters in new england were the extraordinary directing finger of god , and addes : would mr. t. have us so carelessely regard gods judgement &c. yea and rather judge the contrary ? it seemes if he had seene the wonders of egypt , he would not onely have been hardned as pharaoh , but judged god laid them as stumbling blocks . who would not tremble to hear the holy god to be accused by man , as if he led his people into evil by his wonders ? and then sets down two propositions , . that true miracles are never to be distrusted , but believed what ever they teach , that they are gods testimony , john . . . that some wonders that are not proper miracles in their nature , may yet have a plain discovery of the finger of god in the ordering of them , and so when they are not against scripture but according to it , should exceedingly confirm us , and such he conceives those monstrous births were , and that the forgetting them among us is no small aggravation of our sin . to which passage i am nccessitated to answer , being so deeply charged upon such mistaken grounds , . that i hope the lord hath ordered this shimei-like loosenesse of his pen to discover two things for his own good and the good of them that doate on him and his book , . his extreame bitternesse or uncharitablenesse towards me and those he termes sectaries . . his hasty , inconsiderate , rash and immoderate censures , misconstructions and determinations . for wherein do i fight against heaven , and dispute againstmiracles rather then let go my error ? in which words did i either weaken the credit of the testimony of god ? or sacrifice freely gods glory to my fancies ? or regard so carelessely gods judgement ? or rather judge the contrary to gods judgement ? whence may it seeme i would have been hardened as pharaoh , and judged god laid his wonders as stumbling blocks ? or accused god as if he led his people into evil by his wonders ? let mr. b. prove any of these without his childish exclamations and vaine rhetorick , and i will confesse my self worthy to be held an anathema : if not let him be dealt with lege remniâ , or rather lege divinâ , deut. . , . were i minded to retort i might take up some of mr. bs. rhetorick , and apply it to the author of the passage in the epistle to the church at kederminster , in which in all likelihood the thanksgiving daies for victories against the scots are termed offering a sacrifice to mars , and keeping holy-daies for killing the saints . in this manner , will not this man fight against heaven ? weaken the testimony of god ? sacrifice freely gods glory to his own fancies ? regard carelessely gods judgement ? judge the contrary to gods judgement ? &c. who dare ascribe those glorious workes of providence in giving victories to a weake , and farre smaller army brought into a great streight , over an army double the number , when solemne appeales to god were made on both sides to shew whose cause he owned , to chance of warre and call the thansgiving for that victory offering a sacrifice to mars , using though a preacher of the gospel such a heathenish profane censure and language concerning the actions of praise to god enjoined by a christian state , and performed by holy christians , who had by prayer obtained such a signal mercy ? but i forbeare any more of this , and proceed to examine what mr. b. saies , . that i call them onely strange things . answ. if they be referred to [ miracles wrought by god ] which is in the next period , and in grammer construction should be the accident , then it is false , that i call them onely strange accidents , and not miracles : if to the monstrous births in new england , i do call them onely strange accidents in that place , being willing to use a general terme abstracting from miracles and wonders , which are differenced by mr. b. himself in his saints everlasting rest pa. . c. . s. . yet using a terme that signified they were from remarkable providence . even mr. b. himself i do not find to terme those accidents in new england miracles , but the extraordinary directing finger of god , the evident hand of god , wonders of providence , which i also freely acknowledge . . he saith i compare it to the falling of the house , which might easily come from a naturall cause . answ. . he changeth [ them ] into [ it ] and so leaves it doubful what he meanes that i compare with the falling of the house : but i imagine he meanes the monstrous births , because he addes that the falling of the house might easily come from a natural cause . but the truth is , i did not make any comparison between the one and the other accident as if the one were no more observable then the other , but onely gave an instance to prove , that it is not safe to determine of a doctrine whether pleasing god by an accident : sith that accident in appearance to them was as evident a providence of god as could be , that while they were debating the matter it should then fall on one side where married priests were , and not on the other side , where were monkes . and in respect of the time it was in shew a more likely evidence of gods disproving marriage of ministers , then the monsters in new england of disproving mr. wheelwrights doctrine , they not happening at the time of his preaching , or the assemblies sitting at cambridge in new england , august . . or the courts proceeding against them , oct. . . but at another time and place though near them , and not in so open a manner to publique view as that was , though after evidenced sufficiently at the taking up of mrs. dyers child . and though the fall of a roome might come from a natural cause , yet it falling at such a time on one part , and not on another , i believe if mr. b. had been then present he would have been apt to take it as an extraordinary providence of god against married priests , as doctor gouge in his priented sermon , and many others did the fall of the house at blackfriers on drury , redyate popish priests , &c. oct. . . against the papists . . that i disswade from judging of doctrine by such accidents . to which i answer , my words are plain , i conceive no safety of judging what doctrine is true or fals , but by going to the law and testimony , and trying thereby , and therefore bid men take heed how they follow mr. b. in his direction , and of so adhering to the voice of god in monsters or other providences as barely upon them to judge a doctrine to be false . and this i still think good advice , . because the scripture is the sufficient and onely rule which now we have to judge doctrines by whether they be true or false tim. . , . . it is the command of god , deut. . , , , , . notwithstanding the doing of a signe or wonder , yet to look to the doctrine of a prophet . the like is isai. . . luke . , . yea john . . christ referres them to the scriptures notwithstanding his miracles . . because though true miracles are never to be distrusted , yet christ hath foretold us , mat. . . there shall arise false christs and fals prophets , and shall shew great signes and wonders , insomuch that ( if it were possible ) they shall deceive the very elect , and the like is foretold , thess. . , . revel . . , . . because true miracles themselves do not testifie immediately concerning the doctrine , but the person that he is sent of god , and consequently of his doctrine , john . . and then they are wrought by the person himself . as for other providences or real wonders if not wrought by the person , but on him , though they should be dreaded and observed as gods workes , and when we have examined the doctrine by scripture they have great influence on us either to confirme or unsettle in an opinion , yet they are rather discoveries of gods judgements of men and their practises , then their opinions ; and yet therein we may mistake thinking gods judgement may be against one when it is against another , and thinking them worse then others contrary to our saviours doctrine , luke . , , , , . and in the relation of such accidents there is not alwayes that certainty that may settle a person as appeares by the mistakes of many , and many such are invented and related with much art and confidence so as to deceive credulous people frequently . in a word , i conceive mr. b. himself saith in effect as much as i say , i know wonders that are not miracles are not to be interpreted or trusted to contrary to the word , for satan by gods permission may performe them , and antichrist may do lying wonders . . he excepts against me that i say , god would rather have us judge that they are stumbling blocks , that people should not receive the truth , and most of his invectives are against this answ. nothing is so well said but may be depraved when a mans words are misinterpreted . my words are , we may think we ought to determine , that god may order accidents so , as to become stumbling blocks , that people should not receive the truth rather then by any accidents to determine a truth to be an untruth . which are different from that which mr. b. sets down as my words , . he recites my wordes thus [ they are ] as if they spake of the accidents next mentioned , whereas my words are [ god may order accidents so ] which note onely accidents possible . . whereas my words were comparatively spoken to this purpose , that accidents are so far from being a rule to determine of truth , that god sometimes orders them to become stumbling blocks , which is the same with that of moses , deut. . . the lord your god proveth by signes and wonders of the false prophet , to know whether you will keep his coommandments . mr. b. recites them thus [ we are to judge they are ( meaning such accidents ) stumbling blocks that people should not receive the truth ] as if i had spoken positively of those particular accidents forementioned , that god did order them to that end , whereas i onely to give reason of my advise of warinesse set down my observation comparatively , and spake of accidents that might be not of what were . which being thus stated , mr. bs. exceptions are answered , and shew either his inconsideratenesse in what he saies , or proneness to misconstrue what i speak . that which he puts in by the way of his opinion concerning the sin against the holy ghost , as if it did lie much in an infidelity against the convincing testimony of miracles , and of the not believing true miracles , and of gods ordering some wonders , and the accidents in new england , may be allowed him , yet makes nothing to prove that remarkable providences of god are a safe rule by which to judge what doctrine is true , and which is false . as for his words of me [ that it seemes if i had seen the wonders of egypt , i would not onely have been hardened as pharaoh , but judged god laid them as stumbling blocks ] i leave others to judge what spirit they proceed from , and do resolve that though he paint me as an incarnate devil or worse . i shall take him for a saint though a very distemper'd one . page . the scribe hath written in my words [ or none of them ] in stead of [ or to them onely . ] sect . xiv . that mr. b. doth not rightly expound christs rule , mat. . , . nor is the unholinesse of men a note to know false doctrine by . page . he would vindicate his interpretation of mat. . . from my exception , and saith christ tells them how to discerne whole parties of false prophets , and not how to descerne every particular man that is such . but this is onely his saying , and the contrary is proved by these reasons , . those false prophets christ saies we shall know by their fruits , whom he bids us beware of : but they are not onely whole parties of them , but also every man that is such , ergo. the major is plaine by the term [ them ] which referres to the false prophets ver . . the minor i think mr. b. will not deny . . they are known by their fruits , which did come to them in sheepes clothing , but inwardly were ravening wolves ; for [ them ] ver . . relates to such . but these are particular men as such , and not onely whole parties ; otherwise christ should not bid beware of one false prophet , nor censure such a one as a wolfe , but onely whole parties of them : which had been very imprudently done so to expose his disciples to be a prey to single wolves , and onely warne them to take heed of a company of them together . then he askes me , but what real horeticks can mr. t. name that had holy lives ? it is hard to answer his question , because of the difficulty to determine who is a real heretique , some onely making him an heretique that holds an error against the foundation , others any error against the doctrine of christ , some make it necessary that it be held with pertinacy , some with a party , some against self-conviction . mr. bs. speeches shew he is not fully resolved . nor is it easie to determine who erres , nor what degree of holinesse is necessary to a holy life , or how it may be known . but i told mr. b. in my antidote pelagins , a●minius and some others have been reputed heretiques , and to have been of holy , and so have many zealous papists and others . but however ( saith mr. b. ) the best have made nothing to sacrifice the unity and peace of the church to their fancy , and rent it in pieces to strengthen their party : whence mr. b. seems to infer they had not holy lives , but were wicked . i answer , if any man of purpose do so , i cannot think him to live holily ; i know the wisdome from above is peaceable , jam. . . yet holy men thinking their fancy to be gods truth , may out of zeal to their opinion rend the church , and yet be holy men . mr. b. saith in his epist. dedic . to the saints everlasting rest direct . . that independency which gives the people to governe by vote , is the same thing with separation , which comes from pride and ignorance , and directly leades to the dissolution of all churches . then they that hold it hold their fancy , and rend the church by it , and so by mr. bs. rule none of them were of holy lives . if mr. b. censure so mr. atnsworth , mr. robinson stiled by rivet . explic. dec. exod. . praec . . vir pius , a godly man , &c. he will vent a more arrogant speech , then any he chargeth me with . mr. bs. opinions about faith and justification are by some counted fancies ; if he should by them make a breach in the church ; yet i durst not deny his life to be holy . he calls it my reproach , that i think it may be safely said , that there are proportionably as many unholy paedobaptists as of the opposites : to refute which he referres us to that said before , where i shall in its place examine it , and shew that he hath done much wrong to antipoedo baptists in two things , . in charging them with the evils of sundry who were never of their society . . in charging the evils of some few apostates upon all the churches , though they expressely rejected the persons , and declared even publiquely in print against their wicked principles and practises , yea have been the first and almost the onely men who have so declared , though many more then ever were of their churches have fallen into the wicked ranting wayes besides copp , and some others termed anabaptists . he tells me , lay aside the common people , and compare each party that are carried to it in judgement and in conscience , and experience will confute me , and then bids me shew who came to the height of cop , or those in germany . to which i say , who are carried to one side or other in judgement and conscience , it 's impossible to determine , and therefore such an estimation as mr. b. propoundes is not feasible : it 's known many have been wicked on both sides : copps and his followers madnesse is disclaimed by the churches in london under baptisme in their heart-bleedings for professors abominations , and therefore by austins rule should not be charged on the churches . whether hacket or any other were as wicked , who knowes but god ? the evil carriages of the men have risen from their opinion of high enjoyments of god in the spirit , when they left ordinances , as was observed in the levellers , not while they kept to baptisme and church-communion . mr. weld observed in his story of the antinomians page . that conceit of special revelations was the original of mrs. hutchinsons miscarriage , and the like is conceived of the anabaptists in germany , and the like tragedy was neare acting in new england as there . mr. b. i still judge does ill to aggravate so farre the actions of those in germany and some in england , as if no miscarriages of others were comparable . i am sure it is no rule to judge a doctrine false by this , that the professors miscarry , but only to make men wary and fearful . if it be , he must judge the same doctrine false by reason of some mens miscarriages , and true because of others godly living . page . he excepts against my logick , for saying it is not idem per idem to know a false prophet by his false doctrine . for what is a false prophet but one that preacheth false doctrine ? i answer , a false prophet is one that is not sent by god , as a false apostle , cor. . . is one that is not an apostle of christ , and it is no trifling repetition of the same , but the sure note that christ gives , to say a false prophet is known by his false doctrine . ball trial of grounds for separation chap. . page . if we look into the scriptures of the old and new testament , we shall never find the prophets called true or false in respect of their outward calling , but in respect of their doctrine . when mr. b. interprets [ likely ] by [ ordinarily , or for the most part , or usually ] as our ordinary sense of that phrase , i think he mistakes in the meaning and use of the word , and that [ probably ] doth better answer to it then [ usually . ] however , sith he dare not say that constantly all false doctrines end in wicked lives , christs direction as he makes it [ to know false prophets by their wicked lives , which ordinarily though not constantly they end in however they begin otherwise ] is a very blind one for his people of kederminster to make use of , sith they cannot by it discerne an antinomian or anabaptist to be a false prophet to beware of them , till they have observed the end of a whole party proving wicked , which perhaps will not be till they are dead that are tempted by them . sect . xii . mr. bs. insinuations of the wickednesse of anabaptists is calumniatory , and vainly alleadged to condemne their doctrine of antipaedobaptisme : anabaptists and with them myself are vindicated from charges of schisme , neglect of the lords day , &c. page . to deterre his hearers from anabaptistry mr. b. had said , where hath there been known a society of anabaptists since the world first knew that proved not wicked ? a direct answer to this question thus propounded can hardly be made , nor is it necessary . it can hardly be made , it being a question that depends partly upon much reading of histories in former times both about the doctrine and manners of men comparatively obscure and contemned . whereas historians speak little but of eminent societies , and occurrences that make a remarkable change in the affaires of their time : and of things done in those ages in which historians are but few , and not of the best note , when greatest darknesse was on the church , and hardest censures of the best : partly upon an exact intelligence of the affaires of the present churches of so called anabaptists in many countreys , who have been so depressed by the opposite party as that it is somewhat hard to learne where they be . all the intelligence i can get of them is by bookes for the most part of them that are their adversaries . besides , it is very difficult to passe a censure upon a society , which is not a consistent but a flowing body , some members coming in , some cast out , some dying , same sound , some rotten , some removing dwellings , subject to change of ministers , opinions , &c. whether in the end they have proved wicked or not , it being usual that some in such societies do prove wicked , and others prove well . and what man is there that wants not either age to see the beginninig and end of such a society , or opportunity to know the state of all or most of such a society , or judiciousnesse to conclude whe her they proved wicked or not , it being certain that men may fall foully and yet die in christ , and there being no fixed rule for us to judge who dies wicked , who not . the wisest divines do advise caution in judging the final estate even of selfe-murtherers that have died with horrible speeches in their mouthes not long before their death . i thinke god onely fit to judge of mens final estate , and therefore think him fit onely to resolve mr. bs. question . if i should aske mr. b. where hath there been known a society of antiprelatists , that have not in the end proved wicked , i think it would be as hard a thing for mr. b. to give answer to it , as for me to give answer to his question . when men speak of men they speak as they are affected , some magnifying whom others debase , some counting that wicked which others count pious , he 's canonized as a saint , a martyr by some who is judged a traitor , malefactor by others . they that passe such a censure must trust much to informations , which whether they be partial or impartial , true or false who can tell ? nor is it necessary to answer mr. bs. question . for to what end ? is it thereby to conclude against me the doctrine they held ? but what may be known by the certain rule of scripture without this uncertain sign . and therefore i conceive of this question not unlike the artifice of the jesuites to deterre people from the plain doctrine the protestants hold by calling for catalogues of protestants in all ages , demanding where was your church before luther ? as if we must not own a manifest truth we find in scripture , unlesse we can produce teachers of it in former dayes , and societies of professors of it that were not wicked . yet i gave for answer some instances of some societies now in londor , . years ago in france , and some later in germany . as for those now in london , mr. b. saies , . they are not yet come to the proof ; when they have reached to the end of what they are tending to , then it will be seen what they will prove , if they do not return and repent . answ. what he meanes by the end of what the societies in london under baptisme ( i mean ) are tending to i know not . if he mean levelling , or ranting , or universal grace , they have as much for their number and quality opposed them as any other in london ; if he know any other dangerous end they aime at , it were fit it should be named , that their designe may be prevented : if not , who can interpret this speech of mr. b. but as from a man out of a settled hatred to the opinion unwilling to hope well of the persons , against the rule of charity , cor. . . which hopeth all things in them for the future whom he knows not for present to be desperately bad , which he wil not say of the churches of anabaptists in germany , holland , england , of whom mr. b. in his book against mr. bedford page . saith thus : yea what will you say to all the churches of the anabaptists in germany , holland , england , &c. have none of them grace till baptized ? are you sure so many thousands are all unpardoned , or that god is not wont to pardon them and give them grace ? i dare not think so uncharitably of them . and after who dare think that it is ( of the anabaptists ) such an error as excludeth them from grace ? there have been societies of them for a great while , though somewhat latent afore these times , and of them many of the leaders are fallen asleep in the lord , many remain unblameable in respect of their faith and life . and therefore why mr. b. should so forebode as he doth the wicked end of the societies remaining i know no reason but his ill opinion of them . but should god in his just judgement let it fall out so that they should prove wicked , as some churches , yea the most famous , as the seven in asia have done , which have begun well and ended ill , it is no certain evidence against their doctrine , sith their miscarriages may come from other causes , whereof here and examen part . . sect . . some are assigned by me , and are such as have befallen others as well as they . . saith mr. b. it is hard with your cause when you cannot name one society of them that ever lived in the world that proved not wicked , except those now alive whose ends we yet see not . answ. . it were not hard with our cause though we name no society or person before our selves that were antipaedo baptists as long as we have the scripture for it . . if i could not name one society , yet there may be many , we have but obscure intelligence of many churches in the east and other places . the georgians children or the christians children of cholcis say heylin in his geography in the description of armenia , out of brerewood , alex. rosse in his censure of religio medici , &c. are not baptized till they be eight years old : how they live , what they be we have no clear intelligence probably honest though poore christians . the certain state of them in london is not known to many , much lesse the state of those farre off . . we have seen the ends of many of the societies to have been blessed : and how otherwise we now alive should see the end of a successive society , i do not well conceive , until is be quite dissolved . mr. b. addes . . if i were never so able to answer this , yet as the world goes it is not safe to speak all or half the wickednesse of the anabaptists now living , which the history of this age will speak to posterity . answ. . why it should not be safe for mr. b. to speak half the wickednesse of the anabaptists now living , i cannot divine , except it be , because if he or others speak of them while they live they may be convinced of lying , as beza did the tale of his dying a papist . they are not so many , nor so formidable in power , or so spiteful in spirit that it should be unsafe for mr. b. to tell the worst he knowes of them . however me thinks of any man mr. b. being according to his declaration of himself in such expectations of death as neare , and so resolute to speak truth , should not be moved by the unsafenesse of speaking truth . yea if mr. b. should speak all he could , i think he should not more exasperate them then he hath done part . . chap. . those that sit at the sterne i cannot yet learne have such hard thoughts of them as mr. b. and he that reades mr. edwards gangraena , mr. baillee his anabaptism , and other writings , may imagine that if there were worse matters to charge them with , they would not be spared in this age , especially by those that are out of their reach . after-historians may relate as partially as the present , and therefore i shall not think it lawful to condemne them upon such dark intimations as this , but think the better of them till their wickednesse be laid open . . saith mr. b. yet if you had named that society that are not guilty of schisme and demolishing the church by division and contempt and reproach of the godly . ministery and disobedience to those in government , further then they please them , and covenant-breaking , and neglect of the lords day , &c. you would credit the particular society if you make it good . in the meane time i see them rolling down the hill so fast that i think many have but one step lower to go . answ. schisme was imputed to protestants by papists , for their not joining in their corruptions with them , by prelatists to non-conformists , for not yielding to ceremonies of bishops . covel in his preface to his answer to burges , accused the most moderate of them as making a rent in the church , and breaking from the bishops ( even in that where in they were very passive ) choosing rather to for sake their function and calling then to yield conformity to the ceremonies of the church . allen and shepherd answer to mr. ball page . advert . to the read. say truly : scarce truth or error can now adaies be received but it is maintained in a way of schism . i confesse it is too true , that it is hard to name any society of anabaptists or infant-baptists that are not in a schisme , and commonly both parties guilty of making the breach . i am conscious to my selfe of using what meanes i could for reformation without schisme , if possible : but i find ( it as mens spirits are ) impossible : yet mr. b. is not ashamed to tell the world in print , that he hath as good evidence that i am a sect-master , as that i am a christian. i made to mr. m. in the epilogue of my examen as faire notions as i could devise , yea such as a holy sweet-spirited man and understanding did much rejoice to reade , and blessed god for it afore i sent it to mr. m. yet mr. m. and mr. ley interpreted them as the challenge of a braving goliath . i was desirous to see mr. bs. arguments in writing . he would not , but prints in a way that proclaimes to the world , that he loo es on me and all the societies of antipaedobaptists as persons intolerable . infant-baptisme we see to be a manifest corruption , we know it hath no precept or example expresse or virtual in scripture , that it with infant-communion began some ages from christs birth upon the conceit of necessity to save an infant from perishing : we know it is a duty to be baptized , yea by christ made a concurring requisite to salvation with believing , marke . . and so a fundamental by mr. bs. rule in his addition to the preface of the second part of his saints everlasting rest , where he defines fundamentals those things which god hath made the conditions of salvation . infant-baptizers will not baptize believers , yea they inveigh , abhorre both the opinion and practise we conceive a necessary important duty . we can scarce come to their meetings , but we must heare the truth bitterly declaimed against , persons that hold it reviled , error published , infant-baptisme practised ; if we be silent we are judged to consent , if we speake it makes an uproare : we are painted out so deformed as that men are almost afraid to have speech with us , or to hear us , or to joine in communion with us . magistrates are by writings and sermons incited against us . i know not what we can do lesse then be baptized as christ appoints , and receive the lords supper . mr. b. page . counts the error of the old and new socinians denying the continuance of baptisme as a standing ordinance in the church , nothing so bad as my opinion , upon a frivolous pretence as if i made void the end of baptisme in that where in the true end of baptisme is preserved , which is that the baptized engageth himself to be christs disciple . so that even as the rigid lutherans for their consubstantiation had rather joine with papists then calvinists , mr. b. is more willing to comply with that antichristian , and i had almost said atheistical way of living above ordinances , then favour anabaptists . in this case if there be schisme in our practise , let all the world judge whether we be not passive rather then active , and whether the true cause of it be in us , or mr. bs. and others invectives and actings against us . we make not schisme , but suffer it : mr. b. by this last book hath done more to promote it then any anabaptist i know , and how farre the wayes of other antagonists have been from peace , the intelligent will perceive though i be silent . contempt and reproach of godly ministers by men of opposite parties , is very frequent and mutual . i have often endeavoured , but cannot expresse it : yet that societies of anabaptists as they are a body do so i do not find . as for obedience to governours further then they please them , the moderne so called anabaptists in england and holland may vye with their adversaries . the accidents of this year in england which i am unwilling to mention , may serve to wipe away the reproach of anabaptists in this respect . covenant-breaking till instance be given wherein is so general a charge that an answer cannot be given . i know men are taken to break covenant who conceive they keep it . neglect of the lords day i think cannot be charged on the societies of anabaptists , however it may be on some members . some of the leaders of them appear sound in this point . mr. blackwood apostol . bapt . the jewish sabbath being put to an end , col. . . we observe the lords day from the apostles example , and the morality of the fourth com. which requires one day in seven . mr. edward harrison paedobapt . oppugned page . makes the rule for one day in seven moral and natural , and the altering the day simply evangelical from apostolical example , which having not meerly temporary reason is enough to prove an institution from christ , which sort of proof we have , acts . . cor. . , . mr. b. knowes the protestant churches beyond-sea more guilty of loosenesse in opinion and practise about the lords day then english anabaptists ▪ when mr. b. speaks of their rolling down the hill so fast in placing their religion in full mouth'd oathes and blasphemies , &c. it is very hard for mr. b. to charge that upon them , which is the act of some particular persons whom they condemne , and warne others of , and whereof not a few have been of other societies then theirs . my second instance . years ago i have vindicated before . my third instance is of societies at this day in the low countreys , and mr. b. answers about them , of whom bullinger and others wrote who were dead afore they were borne , which is not to the businesse . yet mr. b. might consider that it is confessed that even then menno simonis detested muncer , & becold , as becman . exercit. theol. . page , . acknowledgeth , that even then there were aliqui innocentiâ vitae commendabiles , commendable for their innocency of life , as heresbachius relates histor. anabapt . monast . c. . and those at this day it 's likely are not guilty of much scandal in practise , when cloppenburg . gangr . anabapt . disput . . ampliug . dial . thesi . . mr. paget defence of church-govern . part . . ch . . who lived neare them , make it their fault that they are strict in excommunicating for small matters , and cloppenburg . in the epistle dedicatory to his gangrene saith , the troopes of anabaptists that dwelt in friesland after the commotions at munster , although they trouble not the common-wealth having cast off corporal weapons , yet they suffer not the more pure reformed churches to be edified without daily conflicts . from whence i gather that their conversation there is as other mens , saving for their rigid discipline and different opinions : in the most whereof whether truly or falsly charged on them by cloppenburgius , they are not owned by those in england whose confession is extant . to mr. bs. charging of me of untruths , and covetousnesse , and malice , and contempt of my brethren page , . there is an answer made before and after where speeches and practises to prove these are objected . he chargeth me with pride in my usual way of putting off the authority of their arguments and judgements with a contemptuous smile , or wonder at the sillinesse of them . but therein there is no despising of their persons , but onely of their arguments : which if i know to be weak i dare not make shew as if i counted them strong : that were to put darknesse for light , and if i do shew dislike with a smile or wonder ( though others rather say i do reject them with anger mistaking my earnestnesse in speaking for that passion ) this is usually lesse offensive then alteration of wordes . and if i use wondering at their sillinesse , i am sure mr. b. is not behind me in this book , whose frequent exclamations of sillinesse , &c. are to be seene where he had little or no cause but the defect of his own apprehension , as shall appear in the examining his book , and therefore if for this i be judged proud mr. b. should do well to search himself who differs from the most learned and godly in the world in more things then i do , and i imagine with more peremptorinesse and lesse evidence then i bring from my adversaries own confessions . perfidiousnesse he chargeth me not with : it is a great question in this age whether it be a sin . answ. i think it is no question whether breaking of covenants and oathes be a sin : but whether the not setling uniformity according to the advice of the assembly at westminster , the not conjoining with the scots , the engagement to the present government , &c. be perfidiousnesse or no wherein if mr. b. hold the affirmative , it 's very probable there will be found some to encounter with him , when his arguments are seen in writing . what he tells me , that my not reproving the prophaning the lords day , and excusing my self from resolving the question concerning its morality hath no good savour , is a charge which i imagine comes from some tale brought mr. b. whereby he is abused . i have spoken against prophaning the lords day as i have judged meet in the places i have preached : my judgement about its morality is succinctly set down examen part . sect . . at bewdley i did often in my prefaces before i began morning-exercises at the chappel on the lords day presse them to the observation of it , and in my cursory exposition of the three first chapters of the revelation on publique fast-dayes , and of genesis on the lords day , delivered my self more fully in opening gen. . . revel . . . and when the question was propounded in the weekly meeting we had to edifie one another , whether the observation of every first day of the week as a sabbath , be of divine institution ? i resolved it at the next meeting affirmatively . and after i had in one or two lectures ( for so i may call my dictates at bewdley in resolving their hard questions ) cleared the termes , . concerning the measure of the first day of the week , examining whether precisely . houres , and when to begin , and when to end , are necessary for the account of the time , resolving it to be measured for observation as we do other dayes for working , allowing time for necessities . . concerning the observation of a sabbath , what is requisite thereto ; wherein i resolved that it is to be observed by rest and holinesse , about both which i resolved many cases . at the next time i drew the substance of my proof into this one syllogisme . if solemne worship of god in full congregations be required of god , and fixed dayes be necessary thereto , and observed by all or most nations even heathens , nor belongs it to any but god to appoint it to his service , and god appointed a seventh day sabbath from the beginning , and commanded it in the fourth commandement a mong the morals , and the apostles distinguished from other dayes the lords day by title , precept and example , as appropriate to god , and christians with common consent so took it , and used it after their dayes the jewish sabbaths being abrogated , then the observation of every first day of the week as a sabbath is of divine institution . but solemn worship of god , &c. ergo. the sequel of the major i stood not long in proving , supposing some morality of a sabbath being infolded in the first institution and the fourth commandement and the apostles fixing that on the lords day , is a sufficient declaration of gods mind to have it observed . but the minor i proved by parts . and after i had proved the two first propositions , by reason first of the failing of the meeting through some sad accidents , and then the removing of my dwelling & books , and my seldome being with them , i did not prosecute it till one moved that i would resolve them about that question , whether it were to tempt me or otherwise they know who had a hand in it . i told them what i had done already , and that of what i had begun i had not any breviate about me , but i conceived that in my study i had , and therefore i desired their respite till my next comming to them , that i might by reviewing what i had done and adding some further reading fit my self to resolve them : in which they seemed to rest , but it 's likely some or othertold mr. b. of this , who i perceive wanted not tale-bearers , and he in imagine sticks not to interpret this my respite ( which he calls an excuse from resolving the question concerning the morality of the lords day , though i had long before resolved it , but had not fully confirmed my argument ) as having some ill savour of licentiousnesse , though about a moneth after i repaired to them , and so fully confirmed the other seven propositions , that the company ( who were as many of the best-affected and intelligent there as the roome could hold ) declared themselves satisfied thereabout . mr. b. also page . saies of my exceptions against one story in the book of gods judgements on sabbath-breakers , he is jealous lest it be from no good will to the doctrine of the morality of the christian sabbath , as being against the scope of the book , though the occasion shew it was onely to prove the uncertainty of relations , that men may not rest on them as proofes of a truth . but i perceive as mr. b. is very prone to have hard thoughts of me , so both he and mr. m. seek advantage to create prejudice against me about this point of the lords day , which makes me more full in my clearing my self in this thing , and in other things , not so much regarding my own personal esteeme , as desirous to prevent that indirect way of wounding the truth through my sides . i would have no man adhere to my tenet because it 's mine , nor would i have any to reject it because it is mine . i know too much evil by my self , yet not in the things in which i am accused , at least not in that degree in which mr. b. accuseth me . mr. bs. telling me in print this manner of crimes not proved , but imagined is no whit justified by the rules and examples he brings : his ranking me with seducers i defy , and know that i shall better be able to prove it against him , then he against me . sect . xvi . the ground of my opposing infant-baptism is confirmed by mr. b. himself . page . he tells me all the ministers and schollers that he can meete with , that heard my disputes , did think i had silly grounds to build my confidence in : and though i boast much of my answers by writing , he thinks my writings have little to be boasted of . answ. i have some experience of ministers and schollers , and i sind few fit to judge of controversies , and of those few not many willing to search impartially into a point that 's against the streame , and likely to expose them to hard measure : some that talk much study little , nor is it a new thing to find some that wrangle in dispute for such a sense of a scripture as when they are out of the heat of dispute they themselves expound otherwise . the ministers and schollers at the dispute , such as they were , weigh but little with them that know them best . my writings are not boasted of by me , yet men equal to mr. b. or any auditors of the dispute have said more of them then i am willing to speak of . my imployment in this argument seemes to me to be part of my work god hath allotted me , though i am known not to be idle in other work . what mr. b. calls fallacies passing from me , will be proved verities . my arguments from mat. . . marke . , . are to be found in my exercit. sect . . examen part . . sect . . to which mr. ms. replies are insufficient as i shall shew in my review . in the worship of god it was wont to be accounted a certain rule , that gods worship should be observed according to his appointment and no otherwise . and so protestant divines argue from cor. . . selfe-examiners are appointed to eate , ergo no infants or younglings , though young ones ate the passeover . yea mr. b , himself page . if christ never sent any but ministers to baptize then no others may do it . if there be no example of any but ministers that have baptized ( though parenrs did circumcise ) then no others may do it : ( for the apostles established the church according to gods mind ; and the scripture is a sufficient rule ) page . if there be no command or example in scripture of any but ministers administring the lords supper then no others may do it . page . if we have no warrant by word or example in all the new testament ( since the solemne institution of baptisme , mat. . ) to admit any member into the church without baptisme , but both percept and example of admitting them by it : then we must not admit any without it ( ordinarily ) i take his own medium mutatis mutandis , and thence inferre , if we have no warrant by word or example in all the new testament ( since the solemne institution of baptisme mat. . ) to admit any member into the church by baptisme but believers by profession , but both precept and constant example of admitting them by it , then we must not admit any without it ( ordinarily ) i use his own words and texts . but the antecedent is evident , john . . acts . , . and . , , , , . and . . and . , . and . , . and . . and . , , . rom. . . &c. the consequent is undoubted to those that take the word for their rule . if mr. b. will stand to his own argument he must make good my arguing from . mat. . . marke . , . unlesse he have some such strange shift as mr. cotton puts in the mouth of silvanus ( who personates himself ) in his book intitled , the grounds and ends of baptisme in the preface page . where he intimates that the urging against childrens baptism this main principle of purity and reformation , to wit [ that no duty of gods worship nor any ordinance of religion is to be administred in the church but such as hath just warrant from the word of god ] is from satan , but from god when it is urged against the prelatists and papists : so mr. b. thinks his medium good against socinians , but not ( though it be the same ) for the anabaptists . he addes , all your confident words shew me not the least ground for your conclusion no more then thus : scripture requireth faith to justification , therefore none but believers are justified : which is false , yet like yours , if i know what you would thence deduce . answ. he now i hope knowes what and how i deduce , or rather how mr. b. deduceth my conclusion from mat. . . marke . , . not onely in my words , but also his own ( though i had often long before deduced my argument in the places before quoted , and elsewhere in my writings ) of the validity of which deduction i am the more confident , because it is in mr , bs. own words justly brought by me against himself . if the scripture requireth saith of all to justification , then it is not false that none but believers are justified . yet infants may be justified by habitual faith or actual by operation in an extraordinary way : but the scripture requires profession of faith afore any be baptized ordinarily . as for what may be done extraordinarily elsewhere i have expressed my self , and have vindicated my self from the wrong inferences made thence postscript sect . . and elsewhere . page . the people of kederminster did not heare from my mouth in the dispute jam. . how little anabaptists could say in the hardest point of baptisme : for i used no such wordes , nor any thing i said or omitted to say can infer it : and when they have read my answer me thinks they should believe i could say more then i did say then , and see the reason why no more was said then . it is a meere calumny that he saith , i chose out the weakest arguments or urged some that were strong in a way of my own , and then triumphed and answered as weakely in my sermons . to my best understanding i chose out the best arguments i found in mr. m. mr. g. dr. h. m. drew , mr. blake , mr. cobbet , and some others , and that for the most partin their own words , which that i might not mistake i read in the pulpit , & therefore what ever my answers were , i am sure it is an untruth that i chose out the weakest arguments , and urged some that were strong in a way of my own . when i threatned mr. b. with the danger he went in or opposing me , unlesse it were from god for opposing truth i know not , and therefore take this supposed threatning of mine to be either his , or his tale-tellers fiction . sect . xvii . the grosse absurdities to which mr. b. vaunted i was driven in the dispute , were not so as he imagined . page . he makes a catalogue of my absurdities at the dispute , to which ( being the chief thing he charged me with in the epistle to the people of kederminster ) i answer . the first and second will be shewed to be no absurdities in examining the first part of his book chap. . the third is no absurdity , understanding it of visible membership by profession of their own , in which notion i said in the dispute i understood visible church-membership , as commonly protestant divines do . upon what occasion the fourth and many other of them were spoken by me ( if they were spoken by me ) i cannot remember , nor what limitations or explications i then used , but this i conceive was my meaning , that infants of the jewes were not visible church-members in the wildernesse in that manner they were when they had circumcision , that is , by their visible particular note or mark , and yet then they were visible in the lump , the whole congregation being then gods visible church : in which sense they were then visible , and so the women too who were not circumcised . and when i said no infant can be said to be a visible church-member without some act of his own : i meant it of visibility according to the note of visibility in the christian church . which things being rightly understood , there was neither absurdity , nor contradiction in my speeches , nor any thing against conscience , nor deserving such derision as was in mr. b. and his collegues , though perhaps through distraction of thoughts chiefely occasioned by mr. bs. concealing the notion in which he used the terme [ visible ] which i often in vain assayed to understand from him , or forgetfulnesse , or scantnesse of words i did not expresse my self clearly . this is answer sufficient about the fourth , fifth , sixth , seventh , eighth , nineth , sixteenth pretended absurdities . the tenth a candid man would have conceived rather to have been lapsum linguae , a flip of speech , then errorem mentis , a fault of mind , and that however a mistake might slip from me ( a thing very incident to the most learned in the heat of dispute , yea sometimes in preaching , conference and writing ) yet i meant [ visibility ] to be the adjunct , and the persons visible to be the subject . the eleventh , twelfth , thirteenth i conceive no absurdities , the church-visibility of infants then being from that imperfect church-frame , which was to continue onely till christ came , and was clogged with many burdens , which by christs coming all were mercifully freed from , as , to go up to jerusalem thrice a year , &c. without any losse of mercy to infants , though it were for a time a mercy to them : which will be morefully cleared ( god assisting ) in answering mr. bs. argument p. . chap. . the fourteenth is no absurdity , as i then to my best remembrance expressed it , though mr. bs. juvenility thought fit to make sport with it , that the elect people of the jews were natural ( not as mr. b. sets it down naturally ) that is according to nature , in that they were descended from abraham ( the roote of the church of believers ) by natural generation , and so natural branches , yet not by nature , that is , natural abilities or works of their own , but by grace as the efficient cause , rom , . ver . , . to conceive it , the olive there notes a race of men who were the church of believers , which because after abraham the roote it was first in the jewish nation , is called their own olive : ver . . of which abraham is ver . , . made the roote bearing two sorts of branches , some ingraffed who were the gentile believers , some natural the jewes , and he is a roote under a double habitude , one as a natural father , and another as father of believers . both sorts of branches are by the apostle made to stand in abraham the roote as branches of the church of believers or the invisible , the one natural in that they were not proselyted or ingraffed , but came of abraham by natural generation , the other proselyted or ingraffed by believing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , besides the natural way of descent from abraham , yet both united in abraham the common roote of believers , and in the olive-tree the church of believers , as particular branches thereof : yet neither by nature , that is , by vertue of natural generation , as the apostle determines , rom. . . but by election of grace , rom. . , . and whereas mr. b. tells me , rom. . . sayes both , he is mistaken . for . it is not said that any was a branch of the roote abraham by nature , but that the ingraffed branches were antecedently to their ingraffing in the olive wild by nature : nor is it said of the branches from the roote that are called natural , that they were branches in the true olive by nature , as mr. b. would have it to prove them of the visible church by nature : but that they were branches of that olive or race of men who were not wilde by nature , that is gentiles bringing no fruit to god , but of that olive which was descended from abraham by natural generation , which was the church of god till broken off . . whereas the translation turnes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ver . , . by [ natural ] and once ver . . [ by nature ] yet it is the same terme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in all . . it is not true that the jewes in the translation of ver . . are said to be branches by nature . and for the fifteenth absurdity it is no absurdity : they are called natural onely in respect of their descent as men from abraham , but not as branches in the olive-tree . and this is clear . for the ingraffed branches can be said to be no otherwise 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 besides nature , but in that they were not descended from abraham by natural generation , and therefore on the contrary the jews are natural branches , not as believers , but as men descended from abraham by natural generaration . the seventeenth absurdity is a relation of a speech of mine that mr. b. cannot finde one author expounding cor. . . of infants covenant-holinesse in his sense before luther , and zuinglius ; and then askes , is this irue ? i answer , i think it is , and if he can produce any one , me thinks he should have done it in his book . if he do , he will do more then mr. ms. friend better versed as i conceive in antiquity then mr. b. hath done , though attempting it page . of mr. ms. defence of his sermon . two places ; he cites ; one in tertullian , which i have answered in my apology page . the other in athanasius qu. . ad antiochum , as teaching infant-baptisme by vertue of federal holinesse from cor. . . but , . the author is confessedly spurious , by rivet . critic . sac . l. . c. . scultetus part . . medul . patr. l. . c. . perkins preparat . to the demonstr . of the probleme . the works falsely imposed on athanasius are these . the book of divers questions of the holy scripture unto king antiochus ; for therein great athanasius is cited . yet mr. m. or his friend hath these words ubi supra . these wordes then which are safe and sound , grounded upon tho same scripture which i have much insisted on are read in the works of athanasius : where the question is about infants dying requiring a resolution , that might clearely set whether they go to be punished or to the kingdome . the answer is , seeing the lord said , suffer little children to come unto-me , for of such is the kingdome of heaven . and the apostle sayes ; now your children are holy ( observe the gospel-ground the same that i build upon ) it is manifest that the infants of believers which are baptized do as unspotted and faithfull enter into the kingdome . this assertion is owned by all the reformed churches ] but had mr. m. or his friend recited the words fully then it would have appeared how impertinently the words are alleadged to prove the baptizing of infants by vertue of federal holines from cor. . . & that none of the reformed churches would own the doctrine of that author , being built on no gospel-ground , but popish opinion of limbus infantum . for the entire words are these qu. . ad antiochum , whither go dying infants to punishment or the kingdome ? and where are the infants of believers dying unbaptized disposed , with the believers or unbelievers ? answ. the lord saying , suffer little children to come : for of such is the kindome of heaven , and again the apostle saying , but now are your children holy , it is manifest that the infants of believers baptized go into the kingdome as unspotted and believing : but the unbaptized and heathenish neither go into the kingdome nor into punishment : for they have done no sin . which answer plainly determines that infants of believers if baptized enter into the kingdome : but neither the unbaptized infants of believers or heathens enter into the kingdome or punishment : for they have done no sin . not a word of federal holinesse , but the plain popish doctrine that infants dying unbaptized go to limbus infantum , but the baptized into the kingdome of heaven : which is the same with the doctrine father'd on fustin martyr . qu. . ad orthod . now this is contrary to what the reformed churches assert even from cor. . . that the children of believers are federally holy afore baptisme , and go into the kingdome though they die unbaptized . nor doth the alleadging cor. . . prove that the author observed the gospel-ground ( more truly antievangelical or jewish ) which mr. m. buildeth on . for the holinesse in that author is meant either of holinesse in possibility in being likely to be baptized , because believing parents would likely breed them up in christianity and they be baptized , in which sense tertull. de anima c. . expoundes the apostle as calling them holy not in act barely by descent from a believer , but because designati sanctitatis , or as hierome epist. . ad paulinum alledging , tertullian de monogamia , quod candidati sint fideiet nullis idololatriae sordibus polluantur , which erasmus in his glosse on hierom , renders thus , quodvelut ambiunt et exspectant baptismum ; or else of actual holinesse in being baptized , believers being wont to baptize their infants when neare danger of death not by reason of covenant-holinesse , but the giving of grace by baptisme , and the necessity of it to save an infant from perishing . i am still confident that neither father nor interpreter preceding the sixteenth century did interpret cor. . . of holinesse of separation to god as visible church-members by gods covenant to them : nor doth chamier panstras . cathol . tom . . l. . cap. . bring any though he purposedly sets down the various opinions about the holinesse there meant , and sayes omnes complecti conabor & examinare sententias . sure i am augustin . tom . . l. . de pecc . mer. & remis . c. . saith , ac per hoc & illa sanctificatio cujuscunque modi sit quam in filiis fedelium esse dixit apostolus , ad istam de baptismo & de peccati origine vel remissione omnino non pertinet : nam & conjuges infideles in conjugibus fidelibus sanctificari dicit eo ipso lo●o , &c. unto which i think good to adde , that whereas mr. m. in his defence page . . brings in the pelagians acknowledging that infants were baptized secundum sententiam evangelii , which he imagines to be the gospel-ground ( as he calls it ) of federal holinesse from the covenant to the believer and his seed in aug. tom . . l. . contra pelag. & coelest . c. . that he hadadded the next words [ quia dominus statuit regnum coelorum non nisi baptizatis posse conferri ] it would have appeared , that the gospel he meant was john . . which with rom. . . was elleadged in those dayes as a reason of the churches tradition of infant-baptisme , and no other reason can i finde for infant-baptisme , nor in any the exposition of cor. . . in mr. ms. or mr. bs. sense till zwinglius his dayes . the eighteenth absurdity is , that i said the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is taken many hundred times for authority , and askes is that true ? to which i answer , this was spoken in the dispute , when i had not time or means to collect the number of times wherein 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used for authority in scripture , and therefore spake at adventure , and if i did hyperbolize it might be neitheir absurdity nor untruth so to speak , as is frequent in speakers & writers without imputation of falshood . nevertheless i find it used above an hundred times in the new testament , in matthew . and . of them it is traslated authority , and in most places where it is translated power , it might be translated authority , and if it be used for liberty in any of these places , yet it is no where used for a veile but one , . cor. . . and i doubt not but it is used for authority , or power , or liberty many hundreds of times in the lxx greek of the old testament , though i have not a greek concordance of the old testament , to number them by , and therefore there is neither absurdity , nor untruth in any speech any more then in that john . . though i conceive there is scarce need of an hyperbole to verifie it , but am sure mr. b. trifles in putting this into the score of my absurdities to which i was driven . to the nineteenth i do not remember i said , the corinthians doubted whether their living together were fornication . my resolution and exposition of the apostles words will be made good against this exception , in answering mr. bs. fifth argument c. . of the first part , which i intend to fit for the presse with as much speed as i can . to the twentieth i have in my examen of mr. ms. sermon , exercit. antidote and review shewed a ground of necessity to take the apostles words , cor. . . in my sense , not in mr. bs. the reply to which made by mr. b. will appear to be insufficient upon the examination of chap. . of the first part of his book . the one & twentieth absurdity which mr. b. would fasten on my arguing as most absurd , and like a right anabaptist ( in his scoffing language ) is meerly from his mistake of my expression , as if by present prayer i meant prayer coexistent and continued during the use of the thing sanctified : whereas my meaning was to exclude an habit of prayer without the act , and actual prayer interrupted in its course , through lapse into such sin as davids adultery , in which time things are not sanctified to real believers till repentance restore their sanctifying exercise . and so the two and twentieth and four and twentieth absurdities which mr. b. makes so horrid , are also answered , nor was the three and twentieth an absurdity . mr. b. himself page . limits the speech [ all things are pure to the pure ] that is , all things good and lawfull ; and is not this all one as to say [ some things are pure ; ] nor is it unusual to limit such universal termes , as the matter requires , as cor. . . & . . &c. the twentiefith and twentiesixth were no absurdities , but fit answers to so trifling arguments . for the terme [ disciple ] importing one that hath learned , it is but trifling to argue [ infants of believers are disciples ] without proving they have learned ; and the reason why they have not learned is because they are untaught ; and if mr. b. had further asked why they are not taugh , i would have answered , because ordinarily uncapable , and god both not extraordinarily shewn them this mercy : but because i perceived he was about to leave the plain way of proving them disciples , by shewing that the notation and use of the word disciple ( which himself page . confesseth to come from the act of learning ) did agree to them , never imagining that ridiculous sense in which he takes the word [ disciple ] page . as a relation without a foundation without actual learning for the present , or so much as an assay , intention or capacity to learn , and making actual learning the end of an infants being a disciple , who hath no thoughts of it , and that he sought to winde about an intangling discourse about gods mercy to infants , which though it were but frivolous in respect of the thing to be proved , to wit , the appliablenesse of the word [ disciple ] to infants , yet being popular and pausible , would be taking with the auditors ( which i quickly perceived he affected ) . i conceived on the sudden the answers i gave fittest , and so still do think . the last in number is no absurdity , but if mr. b. put in [ actual ] used by him in the dispute , and understand it of circumcision as acted barely , not as taught , and put in the terme [ yoke ] it is mr. bs. absurdity to maintain the contrary as is proved above . and for the latter part it is no absurdity , nor seemed to grot. annot . in mat. . . jugum mandata singnificat . it à vox ista sumitur , act. . . & johannes hunc locum explicans pro jugo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dixit , . epist. . . to like purpose pareus in mat. . . where he useth the terme jugum doctrinae , the yoke of doctrine , applied to the gospel in opposition to the yoke of the law , acts . . so the n. annot. on mat. . . acts . . john . . pisc. sch . on act. . . the yoke ] to wit , the law of moses by comparing it with verse . deod . on mat. . . calls it the rigorous yoke of the law unsufferable without christ , and therefore unsufferable not so much for the labour in observing it , as the imperfection to quiet the conscience , and the condemnation it bound to for not keeping it , on acts . . my arguing to prove the repeale of infants church-membership was onely lamentable , in that it met with such a contemptuous respondent , who judgeth that idem , per idem , which was rationally thus . the repeale of church-membership was proved from the altering the church-state from jewish national to christian personal , this proved from the different call , this proved from the different way god took to gather his church in the new testament from the old , by preaching not authority of superiors as when he brought the family of abraham , and the jewish nation into covenant . what the ministers ( so called ) which sate next mr. b. judged i passe not . they were much deceived in their judgement about my arguing , and my being mated and puzzled then . what ever puzzling i had was in the beginning , when i was almost at a stand what to answer , and therefore varied my answers by reason of my not understanding where that ordinance of infants visible church-membership unrepealed mr. b. speakes of is , and in what sense mr. b. called them visible church-members and disciples under the goipel , which then i understood not , nor did he explaine so as that i could clearly understand him , nor so fully since by his book , but that by much diligence i am fain to pick it out by comparing one passage and expression with another . it is untrue that not knowing what to say i was resolved to say something , lest if i were silent the people should think i were worsted , or that i requested him to name my absurdities : or that by private confessions or by my own confession i was conscious of absurdities i was driven to . sect . xviii . the grosse untruths mr. b. chargeth me with , are not such . page . mr. b. chargeth me with six grosse untruths , though my words were not assertions , but intimations : neverthelesse i conceive not any untruth in them . for , . however the motion was not sudden , nor the yielding to it sudden , yet the assault was sudden , without any rules for orderly mannaging the dispute , or notaries on both sides to take it , &c. which i imprudently ommitted , not expecting such a solemne meeting as i found , and because of the opinion i had of mr. b. as more candid in taking my answers , and explaining himself , and yielding to other things which might sift the truth , then i found him . . it is not true , i forced mr. b. to the dispute . the words of my letter dated december . . foure dayes before the dispute were these . sir , my message was this , sith i intend on the next lords day to prosecute what i have begun in examining the hypotheses , upon which the argument from circumcision for infant-baptisme ( which is the paedobaptists achilles ) is built , i was willing to invite you to be a hearer , and if you judged it meet to oppose what you should think good in a logick way without rhetorick : yet if you choose to come over either munday or tuesday , i shall be ready to justifie my doctrine openly , or privately by word or writing as it shall be judged convenient . mr. b. choosing tuesday jan. . a seat was provided for him with some kind of state , ministers and schollers ( such as they were ) sent for over the countrey , placed on each side mr. b. which with mr. bs. carriage in the beginning to propound that question ( which i had not then meddled with in my sermons or printed books ) about the manner of baptizing , and in that manner as served for no other purpose but to create prejudice , besides his fallacious disputing in the beginning , did cause apprehensions in me of the designe of bearing down me and the truth by indirect wayes , which before i dreamed not of : which if mr. b. were not privy to yet was he instrumental to promote , which i confesse did not a little perplex me and streightned my thoughts and expressions . . that mr. b. did conceale his arguments me thinks he should not deny , who denies not that he would not give me animadversions on my written notes , nor let me have his arguments in writing . to the rest of his questions answer enough is already given . . it is no untruth that i had scarce time afforded me to repeale his arguments : yea at first it was expressely denied me till mr. good informed mr. b. that it was the rule of schools the respondent should repeat the arguments . and it was once confessed ingenuously that mr. bs. syllogismes were so long as that they could not be easily repeated : which was very true of some of them , contrary to the use of schools being hypothetical syllogismes to prove an hypothetical proposition . it is true that mr. b. would open his termes , viz. the chief terme [ visible church-member ] when i asked him by what note he meant infants were discernable as visible church-members , he did not tell me his note to my best remembrance , and when i did distinguish of visible by profession , or some other way , because i did not express the other member of the distinction ( though i could not do it till he explained what other way he conceived as being a visible church-member besides profession ) he derided me . . it is true also that he checked me with satyrical quips , as that he could not help my memory , when i did not repeate rightly his long syllogisme , hat he came not to be catechized , when i asked him of his meaning about the terme [ visible ] . his speech of my defying the armies of israel , and calling , give me a man to dispute , &c. for my uncircumcised opinion is conservant with mr. m. and mr. ley their unjust and false charges of me to which i answered in my apology sect . . and mr. bs insulting speech thereupon is not without shew of vain glory . page . he blames me for desiring his arguments in writing , though not denying the validity of any one of his reasons against writing , many mens writings being yet unaswered by me , my answer to mr. ms. defence being weak , that i have done him great injury in forcing him to write . answ. the desire i and others had to see his arguments in writing , was because we could not otherwise well judge of them , which he might easily have done being those as he saith he preached at coventrey , and had written in his book at the dispute , and therefore might have been easily communicated to us . his reasons against writing i took to be excuses of his unwillingnesse to gratifie us in our request , and that they were meer excuses his printing proveth , to which he was never ferced by me , as he falsely pretends in his title page , and if he be injured it is by himself , whose own minde , or some others designe using him as their instrument , carried him to it ; and though i am glad to see his arguments in writing , yet i take it for the greatest injury that ever i received from man , that he hath so unworthily abused me and the truth , ( which i pray god forgive him ) expecting also if he live both righting me and the truth . of answering mr. cobbet i have said enough already , mr. church , and mr. rutherfords are in effect the same with mr. ms. and others : by overthrowing in my sermons the hypotheses of the covenant , seal , baptismes succession to circumcision they were answered . mr. drew's main argument page . though his book by the author of the lawfulnesse of obeying the present govenrment be judged to be written with sharp reasons and mild language , yet either there are foure termes in it , or else it concludes we are to circumcise . the dispute of mr. baily had been shewed to be very fallacious , if my letter to the press had found one willing to print it . i desired to have mr. bs. arguments in writing besides these , because he was better known to those of bewdley . i compare not my self with men excellent in writing , nor do i think i used the terme [ silly people ] though mr. bs. notary so wrote it , page . how unseemly mr. bs. language was i have said afore . i conceived it necessary mr. b. should explain his termes to satisfie the people , who could not judge of his proof without knowing his meaning , which might have been done , and yet strict disputing observed : which mr. b. denied , though this were or should have been the end of the dispute , and the occasion of it led him to it . if [ for peace ] and [ for fear of scandal ] be equipollent ( as i take them to be in these speeches ) then [ truth must not be lost for fear of scandal ] and [ no truth is to be concealed so as to be lost for peace ] differ not as much as truth from a most destructive falsehood , as mr. b. saith page . austin i think hath the words i cited in that sermon , my book of scandals page . and in my apology page . though perhaps i am mistaken , and the speech be gregories , whose words in his seventh homily on ezech. are thus cited by aqu. . . q. . art . . si de veritate scandalum sumitur ut tilius nasci permittur scandalnm quam veritas relinquatur . my traducing mr. b. in my pulpit , mentioned page . was nothing but citing his words , which was not frequent , nor is it , if rightly done , any injury when the book is published . what is of me and not of god i pray with him may perish : of schism or zeal for it i am not conscious : that truth i avouch will stand when mr. bs. rotten pillars fall to the ground . to many questions and charges in sundry pages . &c. an answer may be gathered from what is said before . sect . xix . the six imagined errors charged on me by mr. b. are cleered from his censure . mr. b. addes a confutation of six of my pretended errors . the first was onely a speech of mine in conference on occasion of mr. bs. words in a sermon which were taken to be a fling at me , and my meaning was this , that the truth i maintained and such like being about a thing of frequent practise , so that by reason of ignorance sin will be committed , were not to be concealed when if it be it is like to be lost for the peace of the church , that is to prevent differences in opinion and the breaches in communion that by reason thereof do by accident from the corruption of men fall out . mr. b. opposeth it , as if i meant a man must not suspend any truth of the scripture , no not though a total breach bringing bloodshed , ruine , &c. follow ; yea by his last argument he would insinuate , as if it would follow on my tenet , that every one that doth but think it is a truth that christ is not god , that there is no god , &c. that he will think himself bound to reveale it to the world , though it turne all to confusion , and after his satyrical veine saith , he that had rather see the church in this case then his doctrine of anabaptistry should be concealed , is good for nothing but to make an anabaptist of that i know . to which i answer , my meaning in that speech of mine was this , that no truth of god that a person is certain is such , and can demonstrate so to be , which concernes the faith or practise of christians , through concealing of which they shall erre and sin , is to be concealed when a person may perceive by circumstances , that if he conceale it at such a time the contrary will be established , and so truth be lost in the eye of reason , though much trouble follow thereon . and this i resolved heretofore in my book of scandals chap. . sect . . not that i know of excepted against by any ground on pauls words , gal. . . avouched by many divines , and without which the waldenses , hussites , protestants will be condemned for opposing the monkish profession , halfe communion , &c. though warres followed thereon . and our present and former non-conformists will be deeply guilty of sin in opposing the prelacy , ceremonies , canons , &c , which hath been one cause of the great troubles of the land , which have proved greater then any raised by the anabaptists . and so far as many prudent men can discerne , many of the presbyterian ministers of the land , do as little regard the peace of this land at this time , through discontent that they want the establishment of discipline after their mind , as any anabaptist heretofore did . and i presume they that sit at the sterne do find the so called anabaptists as faithful to the publique cause as their opposites . as for the two next errors about others then ministers baptizing and administring the lords supper , mr. b. delivers as much himself as the errors pretended affirm in these words page . in a case of necessity ( as if people were in the indies ) where no ministers can be had , if any fay that it is better a private man baptize and adminster the lords supper then wholly omit them , i will not deny it ; and he gives two reasons . but faith he , mr. t. speaks it in reference to our ordinary case in england . concerning which i answer , that for baptizing it is true i speak in reference to the case in england ; all or most of the ministers ordained being against baptizing of persons of years sprinkled in infancy , and there lying upon them that see infant-baptisme a corruption a necessity to be baptized upon profession of faith , there is a necessity that they be baptized by persons not ordained by laying on of hands of the presbytery , though i do conceive laying on of hands an ordinance in force from tim. . . and . . act. . . heb. . . nor do i like the argument from numb . . . to prove that non-preaching elders may lay on hands conceiving no mosaical ordinance concerning any positive ceremonial rite belonging to the jewish service is a rule to us now , and therefore do wish there were either by authority or consent of churches some way of restoring it ; till which i see a necessity that persons not ordained yet preachers of the gospel do baptize . but for administring the lords supper though i acknowledge it most fit in many respects it should be received some minister ordering it , not so much for the consecrating of the elements ( as they call it ) by vertue of office , as for the comely and edifying dispensing of it by prayer and exhortation , the ordinance being holy , and to be performed with much reverence , to which none are so fit as a minister that is set apart for the word and prayer : yet whereas it is claimed as a part of the ministers office to be minister of the sacraments , or ( as they call them ) seales , and it is aggravated as if it were the sin of uzzah or uzziah for any else to do it , and too much i think is ascribed not onely by papists , but also by others to the power of order , and many require it as a ministers duty to give them the sacrament , and if mr. bs. doctrine be good in his treatise of the saints rest page . their being baptized persons or members of the universal church , is sufficient evidence of their interest to the supper , till they by heresie or scandal blot that evidence , ministers cannot deny it them without instustice , and hereupon many perplexities are in ministers about giving the lords supper , and perplexities in receivers from whom they receive it , it being taught that they do justifie their ministery , and own them as their ministers , who receive the lords supper from them ; and it is taught that ministers have a power to deny some the seals , and this is made a chief part of their government , i have i confesse said and i think it still true , that a company of believers though they have no minister ordained in case of want of an ordained minister may some one or more in holy and seemely manner by giving thanks , praying , and declaring the end and use of that rite , and guiding the action , remember the lords death in breaking bread , and this may be truly a sacrament as it is called , and acceptable to god if performed with a holy heart . and my chief ground is , because whereas it is made one of the chief disorders in eating the lords supper at corinth , cor. . , . that in eating every one took his own supper before other , this could not have happened if they had been wont to receive it from a minister that distributed to all ; and when the apostle to rectifie the abuse sets down what he received of the lord , ver . . he speaks not a word of a ministers duty to regulate them , or of christs appointing it as a part of his office to distribute it , nor gives any direction to that end : but only ver . . that they tarry one for another , and not eat till they came together , whereas if it did then belong to the minister to distribute , the direction should have been given to him not to distribute till they came together . if it be said ( as saravia against beza ) that there were then presbyters at corinth , though i conceive it not likely , but the contrary rather manifest from cor. . . & . . & . . & . . yet it serves the more to confirme my opinion , that then it was not counted the ministers office to deliver the lords supper , and that it might be without a minister ordained , sith they did receive it then , cor. . . yet i acknowledge that it is very antient that the minister called the president did order the lords supper , as i gather from justin martyrs apolog. . ad antoninum where he sets down the order of the christian service in his time . and i am against the altering it because of the antiquity of the use , and the confusion likely to follow on the alteration . but being urged by mr. b. and others in the manner abovesaid , it is necessary that the point be examined . mr. b. argues thus , . he that administreth the lords supper ( in breaking the bread , delivering it to all , bidding them take , eate , &c. ) must represent the lord jesus , who did all this at the institution . but onely ministers and no private men are persons who should represent the lord jesus in church-administrations . therefore onely ministers and no private men may administer the lords supper . to which i answer , . [ in church-administrations ] in the minor is added which was not in the major , and so there are four termes , and the argument faulty . . but waving that exception , because it may be quickly rectified , i deny the minor understanding as mr. b. doth by a minister a presbytery ordained by laying on of hands . for to speak of the ruling elders church-administrations , or the preaching of persons not in office ( of which anon ) it is certain that deacons have church-administration , who are not presbyters ; yea it is manifest out of antiquity , that the deacons did deliver the elements in the lords supper , and rogers on article . of the church of england , prop. . saith , at geneva the elder ( a lay-man ) ministreth the cup ordinarily at the communion , and therefore ministers did and might represent christ at least in that part of church-administration . but mr. b. goes about to prove the minor thus . ministers onely are called his embassadors , stewards of his mysteries , and beseech in his stead , &c. answer , . i think that those mentioned act. . , . of whom philip was then onely a deacon , as many of the antients hold , not onely apollos but also aquila and priscilla acts . . frumentius that converted the indians , and the captive maid that brought the iberians to the faith , were embassadours of christ , and stewards of his mysteries , and might beseech in his stead . . but were it granted that ministers only are called christs embassadours , &c. how is it proved that they onely should represent christs person in breaking the bread , delivering it to all , bidding them take , eate , &c. doth the embassage of christ , dispensing of his mysteries , beseeching in his stead , &c. consist in breaking bread , delivering it , bidding take , eate , & c ? if it do , then a non-preaching minister who doth these things may yet be an embassadour of christ , and steward of his mysteries , then the breaking bread , &c. is a converting ordinance , as mr. pryn held , which mr. gillespy and mr. rutherford deny . for my part i think to be an embassadour of christ , and to beseech in his stead , cor. . . to be a steward of the mysteries of god , cor. . . are all one as to preach the gospel , and that the assembly did misallege the text cor. . . as they have done the other , to prove that neither sacrament may be dispensed by any but a minister of the word lawfully ordained , confession of faith chap. . sect . . for mysteries of god never signifie sacraments in scripture , but the gospel , ephes. . . rom. . . chamier panstrat . cath. tom . . l. . c. . sect . . in scripturis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 usurpari pro ipso rei sacrae signo profectò imposturaest . but mr. b. tells me . it is a silly answer of mr. t. that sacraments are not called mysteries of god. for the word preached neither is not the mystery it self , but a revealing and exhibiting that mystery , and so are the sacraments . the one revealeth them to the eare , and the other to the eye . answ. sure if the answer be silly , the refutation is no better . for if the word preached be not the mystery it self , then neither is the sacrament , much lesse the breaking the bread and delivering it , and so to be steward of the mysteries of god is not to be breaker and deliverer of the bread and wine in the lords supper . but however mr. b. grants that though the word preached be not the mystery it self , yet it is the revealing and exhibiting of the mystery , and that the sense undoubted of cor. . . stewards of the mysteries of god , is revealers of the mystery of god by preaching the word . but then saith mr. b. the sacrament revealeth the mystery of god to the eye . i reply , mr. b. saith so , but not one text of scripture saith so : nor is it true . the mystery containes not onely the thing done by christ , but the end , use , reason of it : but this is perceivable onely by the understanding , and the sacrament abstractively from the word declares it not , no not so much as a picture : and therefore the sacramental actions of themselves are not revelations of the mystery of christ , nor ever so called in scripture : and therefore i conclude , that the text cor. . . doth not prove that it is the peculiar office of an ordained presbyter to minister the lords supper by breaking bread , delivering it to all , bidding take , eat , &c. and though the title of minister of the gospel be used in the new testament , yet the title of minister of the sacraments is a made title . . saith mr. b. if there be no command or example in scripture of any but ministers administring the lords supper , then no other may do it ; but there is no command or example in scripture of any other doing it ; they that say there is , let them shew it . answ. i find this command , cor. . . let a man examine himself , and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup , and this example cor. . , . the cup of blessing which we blesse , is it not the communion of the blood of christ ? the bread which we break , is it not the communion of the body of christ ? for we being many are one body and one bread : for we are all partakers of that one bread . but for command or example that an ordained presbyter onely should administer the lords supper by breaking bread , &c. let them that say there is , shew it . mr. b. goes on . but by this time you may see whither mr. t. would reduce the ministerial office , . others may baptize . . and administer the lords supper . . and then preaching is all or almost all that is left ( for he gives them far lesse in government than i do . ) and how well he defended the ministerial privilege of publique preaching in his disputes with captain bray is too well known . and what need the people allow so much of their meanes then to maintain ministers ? is not this next to the utter extirpation of them acoording to the doctrine of their learned martin-marpriest . answ. pastors and teachers or presbyters to teach and govern the church of god i am assured are a divine institution , and a very merciful gift of christ , ephe. . , , . cor. . . acts . . tim. . . tit. . . to whom people should yield obedience , heb. . . and yield maintenance liberally , cor. . . gal. . . tim. . , . if any go about to extirpate them let him be accursed as an enemy to christ and his church . the railing bookes of martin-marpriest , and such like on the one side ; and the slanderous books of mr. edwards , mr. baillee , &c. on the other side i abhorre . yet i fear more danger to the ministry by the pragmaticalnesse of the ministers , especially their meddling with state matters , then either by martin-marpriests libels , or my assertions . would ministers keep to their studies and the work of christ in preaching in season and out of season , it would better establish their maintenance and ministry , then the asserting such a juridical government and power of dispensing the seales ( as they are called ) as they do . i ascribe as much to the ministry as the scripture gives them . though the office of preaching whether publique or private be proper to the minister so as to be his constant imployment , and he ought not to be hindred in it , sith he is to be accountable to god for it : yet publique or private preaching i do not annex to ordained presbyters as a peculiar priviledge to them , so as none else may be said to be sent or called of god to preach in scripture sense but they . notwithstanding what mr. thomas hall in his pulpit guarded , or my quodam scholar and worthy friend mr. giles workman , in his better temper'd book intitled private men no pulpit men , have said , i still conceive that not onely for trial of expectants , but also upon other occasions persons not ordained may be permitted , yea desired to preach in the pulpits . i find these words in bilsons difference between christian subjection and antichristian rebellion , part . . strangers also if they were in place were suffered both to teach and blesse in the church , as well as others that were tied to their cures , by reason that many were sent by the apostles and by the holy ghost to visite the churches and comfort the christians as they travailed , and such were according to their knowledge and gift not onely permitted , but also desired to exhort the people , and to give thanks to god in other mens charges , grot. annot . in mat. . . mansit is mos aliquandiu in ecclesia christiana ut concessu episcoporum scriptur as interpretarentur non presbyteri tantum aut diaconi , sed & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . vide eusebium qui origenis aliorumque exemplo probat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 spectant quae leguntur cor. . . neverthelesse i am against the courses of many souldiers and others , who against the denial of able teachers to whom the teaching of the people is committed , love to get into the pulpits of the ablest men to vent their peculiar conceits , and oft-times their pernicious errors , not reguarding to preach to the ignorant the clear truths of faith and a holy life in places where they have no preacher , but to new converts to pervert them , and withdraw them from their able teachers , and to disquiet them and their congregations by frivolous exceptions . and for this reason i was unwilling captain bray should preach at bewdley when i was there , and when he would preach and bent himself to assert a liberty to all that had gods sanctifying spirit , and could expresse their minds , to take upon them to teach publiquely what 's the meaning of the scripture , and what doctrines are true and what false , without any skill in arts , yea though he taught error , i did oppose him . which if it were not so skilfully and happily done as mr. b. better acquainted with such mens way might have done , yet me thinks my good will might have been accepted . but i see very little i do is well taken , and therefore see it necessary to wait patiently on god till my words and actions though intended for the furthering of reformation and good of the ministry , in my examen part . . sect . in my apology and elsewhere , be better resented and considered . the fourth and fifth error mr. b. chargeth me with as dangerous , and the root of my error about baptism , will more fitly come into the body of the dispute , in which i doubt not but i shall shew that both himself and mr. blake ( however he esteem his writings ) do recede from the scripture and other approved authors in their making the new covenant common to elect and reprobates , in making reprobates interest in the covenant a fruit of christs death , denying the absolute promise to be most fitly called the covenant of grace , hold that a person may not be baptized that is not known to belong to the covenant of grace , that god actually seals the covenant of grace to reprobates , with sundry other mistakes about sacraments in general , as if their essence were in being seals of the covenant of grace , and deriving thence a right to baptism for believers infants , though the covenant be conditional and common to all . the fith error of mine he confutes is about the magistrates not being an officer of christ as mediator . and he excepts against me for saying in pulpit at bewdley it was of dangerous consequence which he held , though he named not me at any time , and he wrote to me , and i would not dispute it with him . to which i answer , it is true , preaching on mat. . . the argument leading me to it , i did oppose that doctrine , that the magistrate is an officer of christ the mediator , and because mr. bs. book was in some of my auditors hands , did reade the passage in his aphorismes page . and said it was of dangerous consequence . and indeed i think it so still . for i think it will follow , that except a magistrate can shew his commission from christ , that he is an usurper , and then none is bound to him but to suppresse him , then no infidel is a lawfull magistrate who denies christ , and it will be questionable whether this will not extend to a non-churchmember or an excommunicate person , then a magistrates doing of right to an infidel against a believer , or to one believer against another , as putting him to death , is an act for christ as mediator , and if because all power is given to him in heaven and in earth therefore magistracy , so as that all power must be derived from christ as mediator , then a fathers power over his child , but sure that is in a father by nature , nor do i think it any part of the curse ; then ruling presbyters should do the acts of civil magistrates as having plain title to rule under christ. nor do i think mr. b. hath answered these arguments or the rest , but that however he proves magistracy to be from christs appointment , and to be subordinate to his laws , and accountable to him , and ought to act for him , yet not that the commission of every lawful magistrate is from him as mediator . i think it will follow if mr. bs. position be true , that supposing christ had not been mediator , there had been no lawfull magistrate , and that dominium fundatur in gratia , which was heretofore denied . and sith christ is heir of all things , and believers onely are christs , and all theirs , cor. . , . it would be considered whether by parity of reason the saints might not intitle themselves to all power , and all mens estates , which was charged on anabaptists at munster . but i find i digresse , and therefore stop till more liberty draw me to a fuller handling of it . sect . xx. many learned men ( with the oxford convocation ) of former and later times take infant-baptisme onely for an unwritten tradition . mr. b. proceeds to answer my antidote , termes it a corrective for a circumforaneous antidote : but the antidote will appear to be good if taken , notwithstanding his disgraceful term of corrective without vertue . page . he prints two passages of dr. whitakers for the late oxford convocation to reade , and referres to the like in davenant . but whatever doctor whitaker thought , yet that the antients did take baptism of infants to have been an apostolical tradition unwritten seemes to me , from that which is said in my examen part . i. sect . . not avoided by mr. ms defence . in the council of basil in the oration of the cardinal of ragusi it is asserted , item nusquam legitur in canone scripturae s. quod parvulus recenter baptizatus , qui nec corde credit ad justitiam , nec ore confitetur ad falutem , inter fideles & crudentes computetur . et nihilominus ecclesia it a determinavit et statuit , &c. and , in principip hujus sacramenti baptizabantur solum illi qui per se sciebant fidem interroganti respondere . to which purpose walafridus strabo many hundred years before , and vives about that time , whose words are alleged in my exercitation , the title page and sect . erasmus resp . archiep. hispal . ad artic . object . . sunt et alia innumera quae prisci non ausi sunt definire , sed suspensae pronunciatione venerabantur , quod genus est an parvuliessent baptizandi . and commonly the learnedst papists do instance in infant-baptism as an unwritten tradition in force ; and whereas it is objected that bellarm. and others do bring scripture for it , becan . manual . lib. . c. . sect . . answers , aliqua possunt probariex scriptura quando constat de vero & legitimo scripture sensu . so he saith it is concerning infan-baptism , which is proved from john . . but that the sense whereby to prove it is onely manifest by tradition . which is confirmed in the canon law and schoolmen , an infants-baptism was not reckoned perfect , till the bishop laid on hands , which act was called confirmation , to wit , of the imperfect baptism in infancy . molinaeus in his vates l. . c. . cites the canon dist . . de . consecratione , as determining that without the sacrament of confirmation no man is a full christian. can. omnes , et can. ut jejuni . thomas . parte summae , q. . art . . dicit hoc sacramentum esse perfection●m baptismi : innuens baptismum esse imperfectum nisi accesserit confirmatio . lumb . l. . sent . dist . . a. omnes fideles per manus impositionem episcoporum post baptismum accipere debent in confirmatione spiritum sanctum ut pleni christiani inveniantur . bellarm. tom . . de sacr . confirm . c. . confirmatio est complementum & perfectio baptismi . lib. . de effec . sacram. c. . est confirmatio quaedam perfectio & consummatio baptismi . jewel defence of the apolog. page . allegeth it as caistans tenet , that an infant , for that he wanteth instruction in faith , therefore hath not perfect baptism . consonant hereto is the conceit of the common people , that they have not their full christen dome all they be bishopped . but that it may appear even learned protestants speak near the same , i will cite some of their speeches ; among which i will forbear to recite the speeches of the lord brook and mr. daniel rogers alleged by me in my exercit. sect . . and cleered in my apology from mr. rogers . his latter glosse , nor the opinion of mr. bedford , who judged with the romanists , that the scripture gives us proof onely of the reasonableness of infant-baptisme , as i gather by mr. bs. i answer to him page . dr. field of the church , fourth book chap. . the fourth kind of inadition is the continued practise of such things as are neither contained in the scripture expressely , nor the examples of such practise expressely there delivered , though the grounds , reasons , and causes of the necessity of such practise be there contained , and the benefit or good that followeth it . of this sort is the baptism of infants , which is therefore named a tradition , because it is not expressely delivered in scripture that the apostles did baptize infants , nor any expresse precept there found that they should so do . yet is not this so received by bare and naked tradition , but that we find the scripture to deliver unto us the grounds of it . doctor , prideaux fasci . controv. theol. loc . . sect . . q. . paedobaptism rests on no other divine right then episcopacy . doctor jeremy taylor in his liberty of prophesying sect . . num . . after he had ventilated the point on both sides saies , there is much more truth then evidence on our sides , meaning paedobaptists . to all which i will adde the words of theophilus philakyriaco loucardiensis , that is mr. young , as i am informed , an eminent man in the late assembly , and mr. marshals friend that holp him in the first part of his defence , in his dies dominica lib. . c. . page . where he confesseth ingenuously thus . anabaptistas paedobaptismo oblainantes apertis testimoniis ferire non possumus , vesaniam his teles comprimimus , . ex parallelo praecepto de circumci sione . . ex praxi apostalica : quae quum aliquanda fit obscurior , consuetudinem totius ecclesiae à primaevis & historicis temporibus adjicimus : juae ; licet praefractos anaboptistas non movebunt ; apud prudentes , morigeros , & aejuos renum aestimatores valebunt . so that according to him , the main weight lies on the custome of the church , which is falsely imagined to have been from the apostles , as in some measure is proved in my examen part of the first , not yet shaken by mr. ms. friend with all his insight antiquity . from which i inferre , that the antients and learned afore zuinglius did account infant-baptism to have been an unwritten tradition , having reason from scripture , not evident of it self , but to be received for the determination of the church , and that because it was not fully perfect , therefore confirmation was added , which was retained in the english liturgy as necessarily previous to the lords supper ; nor do many of the best learned protestants speak much otherwise out of the heat of dispute against anabaptists . they are farre from mr. bs. audaciousnesse to assert it as having plain scripture proof for it . the very hesitant resolution of the most learned and considerate is enough to represse his vain attempt , and to awaken those that depend on his proofes , and rest on their infant-sprinkling , and neglect the practise of being baptized after profession of faith , being so expressely enjoyned in scripture as a prime important duty for their salvation . sect . xxi . many things are cleered about my conformity , anabaptists necessity to be baptized , the manner of dipping used by them , their standing to their confession of faith , &c. page . he saith , i begin with a complaint of my sufferings , whereas my words were a gratulation for the change of my condition , and for my sad complaints mr b. makes them more then they were , and misrepresents me in the time and reason of them . i let passe his jerkes about my health , and my grievance of removing from bewdley , his way to heaven and mine . mr. b. page would vindicate his passages i cite in the epistle to the people of bewdley : but he passeth over that which goeth before in my epistle , and makes no answer to any of these three things , . that he assignes no sufficient note whereby to discerne the visible church-membership of infanrs of which he speaks . . that there is no connexion between his visible church-membership of infants and the initial seal , without institution of the rite to be so used . . that in the positive rites of the new testament , there 's no reason to be a rule to us , but the appointers will in some precept or practise . and to shew the precept to be against him his own words are alleged and that rightly , however he interpret or interlace them . his interpretation agrees not with his own passage appendix page . which saith , neither are the seals usefull till the accepting and entring of the covenant , where he placeth accepting before entering the covenant , and in both his passages speakes of accepting and entering with consent , which infants cannot do , page . he saith , i seem to speak as if i had some of my old episcopal ceremonious spirit , though he hoped and believed verily that i did not turn meerly to the times , though with the times . to which i answer . mr. b. was a stranger to me till a little afore these times , and therefore is not fit to charge me with an episcopal ceremonious spirit . were it worth while to trouble the world with it , i could shew how i examined , as well as at those years , i could the points in difference about which i was to subscribe and conforme , and however i was carried away with the stream , yet my subscription was according to doctor burges his explication , and my conformity upon mr. spruits grounds , i was no promoter of either , and in the worst time i think none can say but i stuck fast to the main , the propagating the gospel and conjunction with the godly . and my opposing the bishops began with the soonest afore this parliament began , as soon as ever i deprehended the bishops to be wholly for their own rule , and adversaries to the preaching of the gospel . and for my non-conformity , reasons were given with some of the first in a sermon at a visitation at lemster , november . since printed . and what i said the ceremonies were more excusable then paedobaptism is true , . they were not at first urged otherwise then as indifferent things , paedobaptism is urged as of divine appointment , and yet the chief principle of non-conformists doth more strongly plead against it then the ceremonies . . paedobaptism not withstanding the palliating salves of mr. m. mr. b. i find farre more pernicious then the ceremonies ; it being , . the great occasion of the soul-destroying presumption whereby a great part of men perish , and the genuine hinderance of the reformation of the lords supper and church-communion . . it quite perverts the end and use of baptism , which the ceremonies did onely in some sort disorder . i justifie not the ceremonies , and therefore i need not answer the men he names , but their writings yield strong arguments for me against paedobaptism , and better for me then for themselves . mr. bs. questions page . . are upon a mistake , as if i counted all pedobaptists meer formal teachers : whereas what i speak was in tendernesse to bewdley , lest they out of averseness to my doctrine should rest in a meer formal teacher , which i had reason to fear was the aime of some , whom perhaps mr. b. may find ( though i wish he may not ) he hath mistaken for godly men . who perhaps might tell him what was not true , that the power of godliness is much diminished since my comming to them , and their profitable converse turned into heart-burnings , jealousies and fruitlesse contendings . his argument pag. . is vain : for were it supposed that infants of believers were church-members ( which his whole book proves not ) and it were true that baptizers cannot otherwise have knowledge when those that are piously educated begin to be church-members , yet the practise of baptizing the children of christians ordinarily at years of discretion overturnes not the true end of baptism . for whether the true ( to which he addes principal in a parenthesis , as if true and principal were all one ) end of baptism be to be christs sign for solemn admission of church-members or disciples , or to be an engaging seal as elsewhere ; yet both these ends are preserved if they be baptized many years after their being disciples . it is untrue , that it is my usual artifice to work on the affections , of people when i mistrust my strength to work on mens understandings ; it may be more truly said of himself , who usually fills up the vacuity of proofs with childish exclamations , admirations , &c. what i said and preached from acts . . is right , people do indanger their being cut off from gods people , who disobey christ , in not being baptized when their duty is told them , as the pharisees and lawyers rejected or made void the counsel of god against themselves , being not baptized of john luke . . i preach against popish necessity of baptism , and yet hold a necessity of precept for believers to be baptized , yea and an ordinary necessity of means according to christs doctrine , marke . . i threaten no man for not yielding to my opinion , but not yielding to a plain command of christ , mat. . . and his apostle , act. . . &c. acknowledged by all my antagonists ( except socinianized ) from which mr. bs. observations concerning the backsliding of some cannot acquit him . were my words of any weight with him , i should advise him , more seriously to consider whether this his writing be not a perverting the right wayes of the lord. page . that mr. b. did not at least mainly direct the passage of his epistle against me , he will hardly believe that takes notice of the passage , the time when , the texts produced , the accusation it self , the naming me , yea or his own words so often in his book , as page . that he used the speeches to preserve his friends from the danger of my error , that being a dying man he might have no opportunity after to warne his people , that a fire being at bewdley he had reason to provide for kederminster . and what though it were intended against all that take my course , yet it might be directed mainly against me , whom he singled out for commendation , but yet in such a manner , as i may say with king james in his answer to cardinal perons oration , i defie the prayses that ascribe ability and moderation to me , and charge me not only with grosse absurdities , but also with little tender conscientius fear of erring , playing the devils part , besides other imputations , which if not directed against me solely , yet he might have conceived would be taken as chargeable upon me with others . by officiating priest i meant not any other then meer reading ministers , by whom most were baptized , and it was not scornfully used by me , nor like the language of martix-marpriest ( which i abhorre ) but to in imate that in that respect , as well as the manner of sprinkling and defect of profession of faith , the anabaptists so called had reason not to content themselves with infant-baptism . it is true , our english prelatical divines do account baptism sufficiently administred that is so done , yea though it were by a popish priest or a midwife , and i think presbyterians and independents do agree with them : for they do not question their baptism , nor seek any other , though it 's likely many have been so baptized . yet i find spondanus in his auctar. chronol . ad annum . reporting that in france , at vapincum in the daulphinate , a synod wherein famous chamier was president , determined according to a former synod at poictiers , that baptism administered by expectants of ordination was of no value , and to be iterated by ministers themselves . whether this relation be true or not , yet my end in my expression being to give reason why anabaptists content not themselves with their pretended infant-baptism , mr. b. doth ill to interpret my words as scornfull . i do now professe as i did not long since at coventrey to mr. william swayn ( who i perceived since upon his misconstruction hath also alleged this passage in the end of mr. stephens book intitled a precept for baptism of infants out of the new testament , ) that i do reverence many paedobaptists as godly ministers of the gospel farre beyond my self . yet still i say , that they most injuriously inveigh against anabaptists for being baptized at years of discretion , and thereby necessitate them to associate themselves , when the baptism of infants is confessed by the most considerate not to have cleer proof without help of tradition unwritten ; which yet learned men contradict , the sprinkling they have received is not baptism , nor appointed by christ , nor the person adminstring it to many infants a preacher of the gospel , and many learned men have made baptisme of infants imperfect without confirmation , and churches have thought it necessary to retain it , yea mr. b. would have something like it ( which but for the dipping in cold water is to the same purpose as rebaptizing ) page . . which to me discovers the imperfection and insufficiency of infant-baptism to its end ; and though mr. b. in answer to mr. bedford holding baptizing but once onely a tradition unwritten , undertakes to prove it fully from scripture page . ( whose performances i find very short of his undertakings ) yet theophilus philokyriaces in the book forenamed page . sayes , sacrum baptismum non repetendum semper statuit ecclesia : de quo tamen interdicto in sacris tabulis nihil occurrit , and therefore unless i will speak against my conscience , i must needs say that it is ignorance or wilfulness holds ministers and people in their stiffe asserting and practise of infant-baptism , and the violent opposition they make to their practise who are baptized or baptize believers upon so great reason . he tells me it is an untruth that he said [ dipping in cold water is murther and adultery ] about which i not contend , whether he used those very termes onely , but so farre as my memory retaines , and the notes i could get relate , those words were used by him without addition of [ the ordinary practise ] or [ naked . ] but my meaning in my denial of his speech , was to justifie dipping as used by those termed anabaptists , whose baptizing so farre as i have known it , hath been seemly with coverings fit to be quickly put off when they come out of the water , and with meet provision for the health of persons , not tying persons to cold water in the open aire or any other inconvenient thing to health and modesty , but onely requiring the person to be under water resemhling christs burial and resurrection according to rom. . , . col. . . as the stream of the expositors do conceive the allusion . and therefore i cannot be of opinion that the ordinary practise of baptizing by dipping the whole body in cold or warme water openly or privatly is either a breacb of the sixth or seventh commandment , unless he condemne christ and his apostles as appointing and practising a rite contrary to gods commands , and be of an opinion , which is refuted by frequent experience of aged weak persons men and women baptized in cold stormy times in the open aire in cold running water without detriment to their health to mine one knowledge . neverthelesse were it that any person did conceive , that he ought to be baptized naked , as vossius thes. theol. and hist. disp . . de baptismo thesi . . . shewes in the first ages men women and infants were , yet he may find there how provision was made against immodesty and murder , & i wonder that either mr. b. or any other considerate man that knows how persons go into bathes frequently , should imagine so evil of a persons going into the water but once in course habit in a penitent form not without grave company , not staying a minute in the water , that it could not be performed without such danger as mr. b. would possesse people with , in the second part of his book chap. . . his satyrical i had almost said scurrilous quips i let passe . i did not charge mr. b. with endeavours to drive me or others out of the land , or destroy us , but i think the instigators to the ordinance against heresies , have had such minds . and whereas he saith page . i tell him of his danger and elsewhere that i threaten him , is a suggestion that i cannot yet ghesse whence it should arise . the citation out of his book sect . . of my antidote was to shew m. b. paraphrased mat. . , to like purpose as i do . that the untruths he chargeth me with page . . were not such is shewed before . the matter of the fourth , fift , sixt , and seventh sections being argumentative , is to be referred to the first part of his book . page . mr. b. applies that to one term of calling some sects which i said of the rest of his discourse , especially the accusation of societies proving wicked , that it hath a manifest tincture of reviling . he chargeth my conscience as having a flaw for insinuating that he called all independents a sect , and that for denying the power of a synod to excommunicate , whereas he plainly limited his speech to that independency which gives the people to govern by vote , which is the same with separatism . to which i reply , i took it , and do still , that in the books of independents it is their received tenet , that excommunicating however it be not without officers , yet is in the people , from mat. . . but that whence they are named independents by mr. her'le and others , is from denying superiority of synods in governing , and appeales to them , and if a sect then from thence as their distinguishing tenet . however for the tenet of the peoples governing by vote , i know no reason why they should be called a sect rather then their opposites . the excommunication which the scripture speaks , of so farre as i discern , is no where made a part of government , or of the elders office any more then the peoples . in antiquity it 's apparant out of cyprian , &c. that the people had a great hand in elections , excommunications , absolutions . nor is a person a separatist for that tenet , but for dividing practises : other things in that section are answered before ; to that page . of my logick , i say he is mistaken in it . i know this water to be cold because i feel its coldnesse , this person to be a false teacher because i hear from him false doctrine . the subject is not the suppositum as a substance but as a substance with its adjunct . i prove not a wall to be a wall by its whitenesse seen , but a white wall , and this is not idem per idem . the apostle shews the evil lives of hereticks for better prevention of their practises , not to prove them hereticks [ a ravening wolfe ] signifies neither error of doctrine , nor visiousnesse of life , but the effect or end of the persons described , to wit , destroying souls , often also lives and estates . that the false prophets have sheepes clothing , that is , fair shews , though inwardly are ravening wolves , overthrows mr. bs. interpretation he pleades so much for , except he think they can have sheeps clothing , that is fair shewes of a good life , who are openly wicked , so as by the fruits of their wickedness they may be known , which me thinks comes near a contradiction . mr. b. often sayes , he takes me not to be an heretick nor a meer anabaptist except they divide the church . but he taking me for a divider of the church , for my error must of necessity take me for an heretick if he stand to the descriptions he there saith he likes , so that i cannot nor any anabaptist or independent long look to be out of his black roll of hereticks . page . mr. b. saith , i make his question an affirmation , and so doth he himself that tells us it speaks what a rarity it is according to his reading that any society of anabaptists hath not proved wicked . but i make it a peremptory determination , where as it is neither omnino dubitantis , nor yet determinantis , but provo cantis . nor did i say it was a most peremptory determination , but , no man will i think take his interrogation for any other then a most peremptory determination , which i think is true , the words carrying a plain shew of a peremptory determination , and being written to the people of kederminster were not likely to be a provocation of anabaptists to look over their own intelligence , but a resolute assurance , that there hath not been known a society of anabaptists since the world first knew them , that proved not wicked . and therefore i put no false sense on his words , as he falsely chargeth me , nor do i as he saith , call him dog , i onely say , like a right-english mastive he flies in the face , &c. not comparing him to a dog , but his bold act to the manner of english mastives boldness , whereby he is no more called dog , then christ is thief , when he saies , i come as a thief , revel . . . to that which he saith page . of my cheat , i have answered . to his question , did no body contradict infant-baptism for so many hundred years ? and yet is it an innovation . i answer yes : and i think mr. b. will say of keeping an easter , lent-fast , infant-communion , monkish profession , episcopacy , at least some of these are innovations not contradicted for so many hundred years . for his testimonies page , , . for the antiquity of infant-baptism , to the chiefest of them answer hath been made , that the eldest of them is not till the third age , that they onely urge it and practise it in case of evident danger of present death to save from perishing ; that the conceit of peculiar privilege to infants of believers is a late innovation : some of them are meerly impertinent without mr. bs. vain infernece , some heathenish rites of expiating infants are unseeming mr. b. to allege , they being from satan . my testimonies page . of bernard , petrus cluniacensis , eckbertus , are vindicated before , strabo doth not say that afore austins time , infant-baptism was not , but onely , in the first times , nor is it likely that he did mistake austins age years . that the copies put . for . nor do i think he was mistaken in the reason of austins deferring his baptism , but that the reason he gives was one though not the sole reason of it , and the testimony of walafridus strabo though later then augustine , yet he giving himself to search out and to write of antient rites , is of more credit concerning the antiquity of infant-baptism then augustines , who as i shew apology . sect . . and elsewhere , did often inconsiderately call that an apostolical tradition , which was commonly observed in his dayes within the compass of his acquaintance . cyprians speech if it be rightly brought by mr. b. will prove all still-born infants to be lost , being not of the visible church catholick . that which mr. b. page . saith , fully satisfies him , part of it is false , the rest so frivolous , that i can impute his satisfaction to no other cause then his inconsiderateness . the very same or like plea will serve for communion of young children in which yet mr. b. is not satisfied . but to me it is very good satisfaction that baptizing of infants is but an innovation , neither agreeing with the institution of christ , nor the apostles practise , nor known till it began to be conceived necessary to give grace and to save from perishing , yet then disswaded and not practised but in case of iminent danger of death , nor maintained on any other ground till zuinglius his dayes . what the churches of anabaptists so called have done in london that mr. b. should so much lament , till i know what it is i take to be a calumny . that anabaptists have been in danger by the instigations of preachers and writers it is a marvel to me , that mr. b. should not understand , who can hardly be ignorant whence the ordinance against blasphemies and heresies came . that any of my antagonists are turned out of house and home is unknown to me , surely not for non-conformity to rebaptizing , most certain , that if any such thing hath been done it was never by my procurement , nor i think any of the churches of anabaptists . that which mr. b. page . saies , that the same men that subscribe the anabapiists confession have many of them written other kind of doctrine elsewhere . i doubt whether it be true , i find him onely naming paul hobson page . and citing some passages of his , of which that which is most liable to exception mr. b. himself gives us this excuse in his saints evelasting rest part . . chap. . sect . . page . not understanding that they affirm and deny the same thing in several expressions : so that however his expressions be dangerous , yet it is probable he held not the socinian opinion , which he contradicted in the subscription to the confession , but onely discovered his weakness . and yet mr. b. i think is not ignorant , that so holy & learned a man as m. pemble near the beginning of his vindicae gratiae hath a like conceit of gods never hating the elect , but being reconciled from eternity , taking reconciliation for an immanent act in god : which as i imagine mr. b. would excuse in mr. pemble , so might he with a like charity excuse the other in paul hobson . what he cites out of cyprian i wish mr. b. had englished it , and that both anabaptists and their opposites would learn it . page . he saith if my book of scandals were read , men may perhaps receive a preservative from my own hand from the danger of my opinion , to which i say , i wish my book of scandals were more read , nor do i fear that my doctrine will be the lesse embraced for reading it , if my interpretation of my own words justified even by mr. b. be received , as i shew before . page . he tells us the levellers were anabaptists , but i cannot yet learn of any of them he names except den that was so : though i deny not but there might be sundry of them such , likely of the free-willers disclaimed by the seven churches in london , and that they were but few in comparrison of the rest : by the newes-books i gather the levelling businesse was carried on by such as were in no gathered church , but lived above ordinances . as for mr. bs. dark criminations i can give no answer to them , unlesse i could plow with his heifer and find out his riddle : but my hope is those great instruments of god to break the enemies of those that are termed sectaries , though mr. bs. words seem to forebode and misdeem evil of them , will and do prove better then he discribes them , though i imagine they be not anabaptists . nor do i like mr. bs. obscure satyrical criminations , they having some shew of a malevolent mind . whatever mr. b. may conceive of the danger of the anabaptists way in other things , i am sure if they would keep themselves onely to this to be baptized upon profession of faith , they should be in a safe way , even in the way of christ. sect . xxii . the speech [ that no one countrey is gathered into christs visible church ] contains no malignancy to christ , but is a manifest truth . most of that which is in mr. bs. answer to the last section of my antidote hath either been replied to before or in some other part of my writings , or will fall into the main of the dispute , wherein i doubt not but i shall fully vindicate my argument against the visible church-membership of infants , from the different cause of the jewish and christian church , though the thing be so manifest , to wit , that the christian church was otherwise gathered then the jewish , that i see nothing but meer wrangling in the questions mr. b. propounds . and to his words page , . sir , if you were my father , i would tell you that when you say , christ makes no one city , countrey , tribe , his disciples , you speak most malignantly , and wickedly against the kingdome and dignity of my lord jesus . i answer , i meet so often with mr. bs. high charges , upon palpable mistakes and weak proofs , that i fear his misguided zeal or natural distemper hath brought him to an habit of ill-speaking . my words were not as mr. b. sets them down , but thus [ no one countrey , or city , or tribe together , were gathered by the apostles or other preachers into the christian visible church , but so many of all as the lord vouchsafed to call by his word and spirit ] which hath neither wickedness nor malignancy against the kingdome and dignity of the lord jesus ; but a manifest truth expressely taught in the holy scripture as congruous to the glory of god and the lord jesus , cor. . , . , . not many wise men , &c. ergo not the whole nation , revel . . . out of every nation , ergo not the whole nation , as he did the jewes in the wilderness . the relations in the gospel and acts of the apostles plainly prove it true , that by john baptist , christ , the . and . disciples was no entire nation , city , countrey or tribe gathered into the visible church-christian , but parts of them , and those fewer then the adversaries , who in every place were so numerous ( when the christians are counted at some few thousands ) as that even at jerusalem and elsewhere they prevailed to disperse christians by persecution . nor do mr. bs. questions prove , that into the christian visible church any one whole countrey , city or tribe , young or old , men and women , are gathered by the apostles and other preachers , as moses did gather together the jewish nation , exod. . deut. . but saith mr. b. . hath he noi commanded to disciple nations ? i answer , yes : to make disciples of all nations by preaching the gospel to every creature , as it is , marke . . but no where by civil authority to gather a whole city , countrey or tribe , and to draw them into a national or city covenant together , old and young , but to offer christ and to baptize so many as are willing to embrace him . . saith mr. b. hath not the father promised to give the heathen or nations for his inheritance , and the uttermost parts of the earth for his possession , psal. . and that nations shall serve him ? answ. he hath , and it is fulfilled , but not in mr. bs. sense , as if one whole nation , city , countrey or tribe were gathered together in the manner moses brought into covenant all the jewish nation , but as the apostle speaks by ministring the gospel , rom. . . the gentiles , that is believers among them , are an offering to god , glorifie god , ver . . praise him , trust in him , ver . , . so as it was foretold in abraham all nations should be blessed , which is expounded gal. . , , . rom. . , . believers of all other nations as well as jews . . and that the kingdoms of the world shall become the kingdomes of the lord and his christ ? ans. i reade those words rev. . . but i find the time of fulfilling to be when the seventh angel hath founded , which some say is not till the world to come . so mr. seager of the world to come , part . . sect . . and this is not improbable from ver . . and revel . . , . the new annot , faith thus , antichrist is weakened , and christ hath begun to take the kingdome out of his hand , and shall have a visible church like an empire in all the known world , and that to the end , but that it is not yet ▪ . and do you not see it fulfilled before your eyes ? are not bewdley , kederminster , &c. and england ( till of late ) as fully christs disciple , and so church-members , as the jews were in covenant with god , and so church-members ? answ. if by [ it ] be meant the prophecies psal. . . and . . i see them fulfilled , though not in mr. bs. sense : but the prophecie revel . . . i see not yet fulfilled . i see at bewdley , kederminster , in england , people who generally are called christians , but i do not see that all , old and young , are disciples or church-members , or ought to be so accounted , or that they were ever brought into such a covenant as the jews , or-ought to be accounted . church-members by vertue of such a covenant . there is not a word in my writings to that effect . mr. b. chargeth me [ that i would not have princes and masters do what abraham and moses did , in bringing the people of israel into ' covenant with god ] but i say , that should they do so , yet the infants are not thereby to be accounted visible church-members in a christian church . the commission to gather the christian church was not given to the emperour , but apostles . the apostles , it is true , were sent to proselyte them that were no chuch-members , and yet . they were sent to proselyte , or in the phrase of scripture to disciple , the visible church-members of the jewish church as well as the gentiles . what i said , i still say , that the different church-call of the jewish and christian churches is enough to shew a different church-state , and consequently the argument is not good from the jewish infants visible church-membership to ours . if mr. bs. judgement be not so commandable , as to assent to what i say , it is so much the lesse commendable . the speech of mr. herle , and the jest out of matthiolus are misapplied . when he saith , why may we not write plainly against one anothers judgement by a loving consent ? he may know that it was my desire it should have been so , that it was not so , was from himself . he that believes he hath shewed love in this his writing , is very credulous . for the rest , if mr. b. will have the patience and indifferency of judgement which is meet , he may see an answer to his allegations about gods mercy to infants , and the repeal of their visible church-memship . if he remain in his opinion ( which i much fear , knowing him sowell as i do ) and i in mine , we must leave our writings to others to judge , & especially to that day which shall declare every mans work being revealed in fire . in the mean time ( sleighting his vain curse , which is page . ) my prayer for him as my self is , that we may do nothing against the truth , but for the truth . finis . cyprian , and the other collegues which in the council were present , to the number of . to brother fidus greeting . most dear brother , we have read thy letters , in which thou hast signified concerning one victor a presbyter , that therapius our collegue in a time not ripe , and with overmuch haste , hath granted him peace , before he had done full penance , and satisfied the lord god , against whom he had offended . which thing hath enough moved us , that he hath departed from the authority of our decree , that before the allowed and full time of fatisfaction , and without the asking and privity of the common sort , no infirmity urging , nor necessity compelling , peace should be granted to him . but upon counsel weighed long with us , it was enough to chide therapius our collegue in that he rashly did this ; and to have instructed him ; that for hereafter he do no such thing . yet we have not thought , that the peace however once granted by a priest of god should be taken away ; and for this cause we have permitted victor to use the communication granted to him . but for what belongeth to the cause of infants , whom thou hast said should not be baptized within the second or third day in which they were born ; and that the law of antient circumcision is to be considered , so as that thou shouldest not think him that is born should be baptized and hallowed within the . day ; it seemed farre otherwise to all in our council . for unto this which thou thoughtest should be done , none of us have agreed , but all have rather judged that the mercy and grace of god is to be denied to none that are born of mankind . for when the lord in his gospel saith , the son of man came not to destroy mens souls , but to save them , as much as in us lies if it may be , no soul is to be lost . for what is wanting to him , who is once formed in the wombe by the hand of god ? for to us and in our eyes they which are born do seem to receive growth according to the course of secular dayes : but what ever things are made by god are perfected by the majesty and work of god the maker . lastly , the faith of divine scripture declares to us , that there is one evenness of the divine gift to all , whether infanrs or elder in age . when helisaeus upon the infant son of the shunamite widow which lay dead so laid himself when he prayed to god , that head was applied to head , & face to face , & the members of helisaeus spread over were joyned to each of the members of the little one , and the feet to its feet ; which thing if it be thought on according to the quality of our birth and body , an infant cannot be equalled to a person grown and come to full stature , neither could he close and fit little members to greater : but their divine and spiritual evenness is expressed , that all men are even and equal when they are made by god , and our age may have difference in increase of bodies according to the world , not according to god : unless if the grace also which is given to the baptized be given lesse or more according to the age of receivers : where as the holy spirit is equally given to all , not by measure , but out of tendernesse and fatherly indulgence . for god as he accepts not a person , so neither doth he accept of age , sith he affordes himself alike to all with a ballanced equality for the obtaining of heavenly grace . and for what thou hast said the footstep of an infant made in the first dayes of his birth is not clean , because every one of us as yet is afraid to kiss him , neither do we think this to be a hindrance to the giving of heavenly grace : for it is written , all things are clean to the clean ; neither ought any one to be afraid to do that which god hath vouchsafed . for although the infant is yet new from the birth , yet it is not so that one in giving grace and granting peace ought to be afraid to kiss him , sith in the kiss of an infant every one of us according to his religion ought to think of the very hands of god as yet fresh , which we in some : sort kiss in man now formed and newly born , when we embrance that which god hath made . for as for what was observed in jewish carnal circumcision the . day , is a sacrament foregoing in a shadow and in an image , but is now compleat in the truth , christ being come . for because the day in which the lord should rise and quicken and give us spiritual circumcision was the . day , that is , the first after the sabbath , this . day , that is , the first after ▪ the sabbath and the lords day went before in an image , which image ceased , the truth after ●●●ing upon it , and the spiritual circumcision being given us . for which reason we think none ought to be hindred from obtaining the grace of christ , nor that the spiritual circumcision ought to be hindred by the carnal , but that every man altogether is to be admitted to the grace of christ , sith peter also speaks and sayes in the acts of the apostles , the lord hath said to me , none is to be said to be common and unclean . but if any thing might hinder men from the obtaining grace , more grievous sins might hinder grown men and commen to full stature & elder in birth . but moreover , if to most grievous offenders , and those that sin much before god , when after they believe remission of sins is given , and no man is withheld from baptism and from grace , how much more ought not an infant to be withheld , who being new born hath sins no whit , but that being born according to adam carnally he drew on him in his first nativity the contagion of death of old : who in this respect doth more easily come to receive remission of sins , because not his own sias but anothers are forgiven him ? and therefore most dear brother , this was our sentence in the council , that none by us ought to be prohibited from baptism , and the grace of god , who is mercifult and kind and tender to all . which as it is to be observed and held concerning infants themselves and newly born , who in this respect do deserve more of our help and ' divine mercy , because in the first beginning their birth presently crying and weeping they do nothing else but pra we wish to thee most dear brother alwayes health . for mr. richard baxter at kederminster . sir , some of my neighbours conceived it would be their best way to resolve their doubts about baptism to know what arguments you could bring for infant-baptism , and against their being baptized , notwithstanding the pretended baptism they had in infancy . whereupon with my privity one came to you , upon whose relating to me your answer , i wrote to you , and upon receipt of your letter to me think good to let you understand , that i said not , i utterly refused open dispute , but that i affected it not , it being fit for schools , and not common auditors , entered into usually with animosities and eagernesse to obtain a supposed victory , mannaged with heat and multitude of words , with answers and replies not so delibrate as were requisite to settle any ones judgement , they being misapprehended by auditors who commonly take him to have the better who speaks the most , ending usually in wrangling or something like it , followed with misreports , accompanied w●●● disorders and inconveniencies insomuch that except in case of betraying truth by declining a dispute , i can hardly bring my self to yield to it . and howsoever you conceive of my advantages , you may if you will , and perhaps do know , that you have such advantages in your ready wit and speech , and the favour and general acclamation to any thing that is said for the superstition of infant-baptism as to bring things so to passe , that the event shall be crying down truth and disgrace of my person . nor have your disparaging speeches of my writings without animadversions on them communicated to me , or your carriage at or not long after the receipt of my letter , encouraged me to hope for all candour from you in this matter . for preaching , sith it belongs to you to maintain the divine institution of infant-baptism , i shall be willing to examine what you say , when you have said what you think good for it if i may obtain a copy of your sermon which you will own ; and if it satisfie me , i shall confesse it , if not in a sermon in the same place or elsewhere i shall give a distinct and plain answer to it . fo● writing ( which i like best ) i desire not to put you to any tedious or volu●●nous way , but in the most compendious way of syllogisms , yea if it may ●● , that you put in one medium the strength of all you can . of the sho●●●ispatch you desire , you may assure your self who are to be the opponent in ●●●oint , my answer will be as short as your argument will permit , and ●●●●●e you conttact it keeping to the point , the more satisfactory it wil 〈◊〉 i am yours in our lord john tombes bewdley , sept. . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e tertullian . l. de baptismo laicis jus est baptizandi . an apology or plea for the two treatises, and appendix to them concerning infant-baptisme; published decemb. . . against the unjust charges, complaints, and censures of doctor nathanael homes, mr iohn geree, mr stephen marshall, mr john ley, and mr william hussey; together with a postscript by way of reply to mr blakes answer to mr tombes his letter, and mr edmund calamy, and mr richard vines preface to it. wherein the principall heads of the dispute concerning infant-baptism are handled, and the insufficiency of the writings opposed to the two treatises manifested. / by iohn tombes, b.d. tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) an apology or plea for the two treatises, and appendix to them concerning infant-baptisme; published decemb. . . against the unjust charges, complaints, and censures of doctor nathanael homes, mr iohn geree, mr stephen marshall, mr john ley, and mr william hussey; together with a postscript by way of reply to mr blakes answer to mr tombes his letter, and mr edmund calamy, and mr richard vines preface to it. wherein the principall heads of the dispute concerning infant-baptism are handled, and the insufficiency of the writings opposed to the two treatises manifested. / by iohn tombes, b.d. tombes, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed for giles calvert, at the black-spread-eagle at the west end of pauls., london, : . a defense of his: two treatises and an appendix to them concerning infant-baptisme. license to print on verso of first leaf. the last leaf is blank. annotation on thomason copy: "aug: th". reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an 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illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng homes, nathanael, - . geree, john, ?- . marshall, stephen, ?- . ley, john, - -- early works to . hussey, william, -- minister of chiselhurst. blake, thomas, ?- . calamy, edmund, - . vines, richard, ?- . tombes, john, ?- . -- two treatises and an appendix to them concerning infant-baptisme. infant baptism -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion having perused this milde apology , i conceive that the ingenuity , learning and piety therein contained deserve the presse . iohn bachiler . an apology or plea for the two treatises , and appendix to them concerning infant-baptisme ; published decemb. . . against the unjust charges , complaints , and censures of doctor nathanael homes , mr iohn geree , mr stephen marshall , mr john ley , and mr william hussey ; together with a postscript by way of reply to mr blakes answer to mr tombes his letter , and mr edmund calamy , and mr richard vines preface to it . wherein the principall heads of the dispute concerning infant-baptism are handled , and the insufficiency of the writings opposed to the two treatises manifested . by iohn tombes , b. d. gal. . . am i therefore become your enemy , because i tell you the truth ? london , printed for giles calvert , at the black spread-eagle at the west end of pauls . . to the right worshipfull my much honoured auditors , members of the honourable , house of commons , and societies of the temple . after other meanes duly but without successe tried , for the publique good , to wit the vindicating of truth , and consequently for the preventing of the establishment of an errour and corruption of the most solemn sacred rite of the christian profession , and the oppression of them that oppose it , i consented to the publishing of two treatises in december last about infant-baptisme . it seemed good to sundry persons of note presently to cry downe my assertions , and to load me with unjust accusations , which i take to be rather a baffeling of the author , then an answering of his writing . yet the truth hath gotten so much ground ( however some eminent men pretend otherwise ) that the doctrine of the directory is disavowed by two of the most eminent of my antagonists , as is shewed § . pag. . . . . . of this apology , the chiefe argument of my prime antagonist , is proved to be either nugatory or fallacious , § . . pag. . . . . of this apology , sundry confessions are drawne from my antagonists , which in my judgement , and i thinke in the judgement of any that knowes what belongs to disputes , do yeeld the cause , as those that i mention § . . pag . . . . . & § . . page . of this apology . and as for the accusations against my selfe , i should sleight them , were it not they had a great influence upon the cause , and therefore have been necessitated to vindicate my selfe ; and therewith the truth in some measure by this apology . the great prejudice against me in point of antiquity , i have also in this apology endeavoured to dispell , specially that from the testimony of augustin , serm. . de verbis apostoli , tom . . which upon examination i find not to be an historicall narration from good records , but a meer hyperbolicall speech , rhetorically asserting a thing by conjecture from present use in a sermon to the people , § . . pag. . . . . of this apology . and for the testimony of tertullian concerning federall holinesse , it is shewed to be impertinent , § . . pag. . . that the present synod or reformed churches are against me should be no more prejudice against me , then it is against the synod , and reformed churches that they oppose the doctrine of infant-baptisme , as it was taught by cyprian , and his councill of . bishops , augustin , and many synods , and churches all along till the fifteenth century , and the augustan confession art . the danger of troubles upon a reformation of this corruption should make men wary how they introduce them ; i thinke they that are bound by covenant to reforme , yet are not bound to do it with procipitation , and without prudence . but however men must take heed how they establish an errour and corruption by a law , and oppresse men for holding a truth , lest they kicke against the pricke . as for my owne particular , the hard dealing i have fo●nd doth not alienate me from my brethren , nor i hope shall make a schism between us ; if it must happen , my indeavour is , that it may be necessary , not voluntary on my part . what hath happened i looke upon it , however meant by men , yet as ordered by god for good , to wit the clearing of the truth , the trying and humbling of my selfe . that i suffer in the repute of men , or my outward peace moves me not . it 's not to be expected children should be born without travail , nor truth without suffering ; yet to leave so intelligent an auditory , with so much advantage of the fruite of my labours , is no small grievance . however i have chosen you for depositaries , in whose hands i may leave this apology ; that you may not be strangers to this businesse , nor forget him who is your reall servant in the things of christ , john tombes . from my study at the temple in london , august . . the contents of the apology . pag. . sect. . of the occasion of writing this apology . pag. . sect. . of the intention of the author upon that occasion . sect. . of the necessity and seasonablenesse of publishing the two treatises about infant-baptisme . pag. . sect. . of freedome from publishing the two treatises contrary to engagement , with a declaration of the authors proceedings therein . pag. . sect. . of the clearing the author of the two treatises from scornfulnesse in writing them , of my censure of mr the : goodwins handling this point , and of all writers about coloss . . . pag. ● . of the exposition i give of colos . . . confessed to be right by mr marshall himselfe . pag. . sect. . of the clearing the author of the examen from either justifying the anabaptists in germany , or condemning the godly and grave nonconformists in england . pag. . sect. . of the clearing of the author of the two treatises from vaunting and challenging in the composing and publishing the treatises . pag. . sect. . of the clearing of the authour of the two treatises from sophistry in them , whereby occasion is taken to vindicate the treatises in many of the chiefe things contained in them . pag. . sect. . of the meaning of m. marshals second conclusion , the words in the directory [ the promise is made to beleevers and their seed ] and the doctrine therein delivered , disavowed by m marshal and m. geree . p. . sect. . of the distinction of inward & outward covenant , & that it can stand m. m. in no stead , but to shew his triflting & equivocating in his first argument ▪ and two first conclusions , and of master marshals mistake of my opinion . page . sect . . of master marshals false and most unjust charge that i carry a socini●● plot through my examen and exerutation pag. . sect. . of mr marshals unjust charge of my itching after new opinions , and particularly about rebaptization and receiving the lords supper afore baptisme . page . sect. of alleaging authors against their mind , particularly master daniel rogers master ball , chamier , ar●tiu , and beza . pag. . sect. . of master marshals unjust charging anabaptists with a bloody sentence , condemning all the infants of beleevers , as having nothing to doe with the covenant of grace , his imputing to me as if i held that they all belong actually to 〈◊〉 kingdom of the devill , no more promise for them , then for children of turks , their actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the devill . pag. . a large disqui●ition of rom . . &c. wherein is shewed that the ingraffing there is into the invisible church by election and giving faith , and that it proves not infant-baptisme . pag. . sect. . of master marshals unjust charge against me as darkning his argument , and casting filth in the face of the assembly . pag. . sect. . of master marshals untrue charge against me , as if i rested on grotius in setting down the tenent of antiquiry upon occasion of which the tenent of antiquity is again examined ; my judgement of their doctrine vindicated : master marshals new allegations answered , and my diligence to find out their tenets manifested . pag . sect. . of my opinion about excommunication , church-government , the admission unto all ordinances , my former conformity alleaged to allenate mens minds from me and my writings . pag. . sect. . of the vanity of master leyes vaunt concerning the deadly wound given to my cause , and the contrary demonstrated by a briefe going through the principall points about this argument , as they have hitherto been disputed . as about acts . . rom. . . colos . . . mat. . . acts . . mat. . &c. pag. . baptisme and the rite of eating bread and drinking wine at the passeover , though old rites among the iewes , yet used to another end and after another rule by christians . pag. . the command confessed to be the formall reason of circumcision by mr marshall . circumcision a priviledge proper to the jewish church-state . pag. . no command about the jewes sacraments now in force . pag. . infants not disciples as mat. . is meant . baptizing housholds inferres not infant-baptisme . pag. . we have no evidence for judgement of charity concerning infants , nor is a judgment of charity to be our rule in administring baptisme . pag. . sect. . of master hussey his pretended satisfactory answer to my exercitation . pag. . sect. the epilogue of this apology concerning the reason of the enlargeing of it , the authours present estate and future intentions . the contents of the postscript . page . sect. . the occasion of this postscript . ● . sect. . of m. calamy , and mr. v●nes . their wrong judgement of the dispute , mast . blakes book and my discussing the point . p. . sect . . of master blakes charge of defect of charity , and some other imputations . pag. . sect . . they that deny infant-baptisme need not teach that infants perish . pag . sect . of my censure of master blakes producing gal. . for the birth-priviledge pag. . sect . . of the necessity of my taking p●ins in my examen to find out the meaning of master marshals second conclusion by reason of the ambiguity of his expressions . pag. . sect . . of the corinthians doubt , cor. . . . . pag. . sect . . cor. . . is not meant of instrumental sanctification , & federal holines . p. . sect . . of mast . blakes misallegation of gal. . . which was the text he chose for his birth-priviledge . pag. . sect . . that pet. . . is meant of the church invisible . pag. . sect . . of precedents for womens receiving the lords supper . p. . sect . . to say that god hath promised to be the god of every beleever and his naturall seed is a new gospell . p. . sect . . of master rutherfurds and m. blakes opinion about holinesse of a chosen nation , and mediate ancestours profession intitling to infantbaptisme , and the independents advantage in this point . pag. . sect . . of the word [ nations ] matth . ● . . how to be taken . pag. . sect . . of master ruthersfurds and master blakes , and mine opinion concerning the rule to know who are baptizable . pag. . sect . . about two suppositions a●criby me to master marshall and master blake in my examen , page . pag. . sect . . about arguments draw●● from analogy in positive rites and their invalidity , and the insufficiency of master blakes rules . pag. . sect . . that master blake hath not proved that infants are disciples from matth. . . nor pertinently alleaged , isai . , ● . pag. . sect . . of baptizing ●ous●olds and 〈◊〉 censure of mr blakes speech concerning it . pag. . sect . . about matth. . that by the kingdome of heaven is meant the kingdome of glory . pag. . sect . . that god seales not to every person that is rightly , baptized , that his covenant of grace belongs only to the elect , that his covenant is effectuall , and leaves it not to mans liberty to include or exclude himselfe . pag. . sect . of mr blakes unjust crimination of 〈◊〉 as putting the children of beleevers out of the covenant of grace , and the epilogue of this postscript . an apology for the two treatises , and appendix to them concerning infant-baptisme , against the unjust charges , complaints and censures of d. nathanael homes , m. john geree , and m. steven marshall , and m. john ley. december , ● . were published with my consent two treatises , and an appendix to them concerning infant-baptisme . the writing that could not in nineteene moneths before obtaine a few lines , hath now gained foure answers in foure moneths . in january came forth : treatise of one thomas bakewell , in which the title pretends a briefe answer to my twelve doubtfull arguments ( as he stiles them ) against infant-baptism in my exercitation about it . this treatise i think hath honour enough done it that it is named . if any man shew me any thing worth the answering in it , it may in time gain a reply , otherwise for me it may take it's rest . the next moneth was published doctor homes his vindication of baptizing beleevers infants in some animadversions on my exercitation and examen . the next moneth i received from master iohn geree his vindic●ae paedobaptisms in a full answer ( as is asserted ) to my twelve arguments in my exercitation , and whatsoever is rationall or materiall in my answer to master marshals sermon . the next moneth i received master stephen marshall his defence of infant-baptisme in answer to my two treatises and appendix , in which also i am informed of two peices at least from new-england in which i am concerned . and unto all , or some of these , master iohn ley in his epistle to master iohn sal●marsh addes his acclamation in these words . there be divers● davids who are ready for a single encounter with that braving goliah , and some have given his cause such a wound already , as ( though he may play the montebanke with it and skin it over ) will never be cured at the bottom . thus farre they have spoken : i presume they will allow me now liberty to speake for my selfe , and for the truth . my cause ( as master ley cals it ) containes either the manner , or the matter of my treatises . the defence of the matter of them is the chiefest thing , and is first in my intention . but the clearing of my selfe from some complaints or charges in the manner of handling the whole businesse , is so necessary for the removing of prejudices , which would prevent reading and entertaining my writings , and do undermine my present station , that i am constrained , first to plead for my selfe , before i engage further in the controversie : wherefore i shall answer those charges by themselves apart that so the main question may be discussed by it selfe . first , doctor homes in his epistle to the reader hath these words . meane while i could not but lament the untimely birth of master t. his exercitation , and his unnecessary falling intravell with it , after at least sixe able brethren , and above so many daies by nervous disputation had given him so much cause to doubt of his ten●t , or at least a while to suspend it . and this hath been by sundry persons objected to me , that the publishing my booke was extreamly unseasonable . two reasons are implyed in doctor homes his words to insinuate that it was untimely , because it was unnecessary . secondly , because it was after such a nervous disputation as he mentions . to that of needlesnesse i answer . if it were necessary to maintaine truth though generally opposed , when few or none were willing to appeare for it , and speciall providence called me out to do it , if it were necessary to endeavour the preventing of unjust persecution for holding a truth , to which in sermons and other waies law-makers , and magistrates were every where instigated , if it were necessary when the people of god were perplexed about a poynt of conscience that pertaines to their continuall practice , and disputation in publike was declined , to endeavour the bringing of truth to light , if it were necessary for a man to keep the solemne covenant he hath by oath bound himselfe to , though it were to his great hazzard , if it were necessary in a time of reformation for a minister of the gospell to do what belonged to him to further it , if it be necessary for a minister of the gospell to provide for the giving of his account at the day of jesus christ , then it was necessary for me to fall in travell with my exercitation and examen ; for all these ends and ties concurred in the writing and publishing of my treatises . and therefore i am assured that what i did was so necessary , that had i not done what i did , i should neither have been faithfull to christ , nor to his people , nor to the state , nor to my own soule . i confesse my book was untimely published in reference to my own preferment , and outward peace . i saw few or none regarded for clearing of truth : but popular orators , such as relate to great men , or are usefull to uphold a party , are the men esteemed . i could not expect any other then opposition to my opinion , being against such a stream of men . but i feared that of our lord christ , he that is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinfull generation , of him shall the son of man be ashamed when he shall come in his glory with his holy angels . how nervous the disputation he mentions was , i suppose the doctor knowes not but by report , forasmuch as i never perceived him present at it . the strength , and substance of all the arguments , as well as my memory ( who was then the respondent ) could beare them away , was faithfully digested by me in my exercitation , which was composed not long after in part upon occasion of that disputation . in which disputation i was so farre from finding cause to doubt of my tenet , that i professe sincerely both that disputation , and the severall answers of my learned antagonists , and reverend brethren doctor homes , and master geree , and master marshall have giuen me lesse cause to doubt of my tenet , especially sith master marshall pag. . of his defence saies , it was never asserted by him , that the c●venant of saving grace is made to beleevers and their naturall seed , and pag. . the command is the cause of the existence of the duty , but the covenant of grace is the motive to it , and pag. . he grants , that the formall reason ( which is the adequate reason ) of the iewes being circumcised was the command of god , the covenant of grace , or their church-state he only makes the motive to it , and the thing it related to : which with many more concessions in his defence , and the others answers i doubt not , but if the lord vouchi●ase me time and liberty to improve to the overthrow of his first and maine argument , and the inference he makes from the texts of scripture he brings to confirme it , and consequently his whole cause , as he himselfe confesseth in his sermon . pag. . and for giving me cause to suspend my 〈◊〉 ; if he mean by suspension , stifling my doubts in mine own bosome , and never imparting them to learned men for resolution , it had been in my apprehension extreame imprudence , if not stupidity , to have let slip the opportunity of making known the reasons of my doubts in this juncture of time , in which by covenant the state was engaged to settle worship , catechizing , confession of faith , discipline according to gods word , to each of which this point is of no small moment : if he meane by suspending my tenet the not printing my writings , neither am i justly to be blamed therein considering how long i waited and yet never received any resolution , and after i say not , a moneth only , but ten moneths at least waiting for an answer about my motion to master marshall in the epilogue of my examen , it was plainly rejected . and though master marshall excuseth himselfe by relating that i declared to him , that i could , and that i intimated to him i would keep the opinion private to my selfe ( in which either his memory or his apprehension were defective ) and therefore took no further thought of examining my treatises , yet i suppose it concerned master marshall for many reasons to have contrived some course for my satisfaction , or the abatement of height of pride , and confidence which the perturbation of his mind , rather then the true intelligence of my spirit in that businesse made him imagine in my writings . as for the unseasonablenesse in politicke respects ( though i do not take upon me in●ight therein ) yet so farre as my reason is able to discerne , it could never have come more seasonably , to have a matter of such moment discussed , while reformation , and lawes confirming it were yet in fieri , all men knowing , that it is too late to speake , when the legislative power hath fully enacted a law. and whereas master marshall saies , he verily thought i would have 〈◊〉 q●iet by down , preached , kept my opinion to my self , and not have any further appeared ( especially at this time ) to encrease the flame of 〈…〉 , i answer . for my quiet sitting down , and preaching christ , i can boldly and cheerefully appeale to my auditors of these honourable societies whereof not a few are eminent persons in the honourable house of commons . for my app●●ring at this time i have given reasons , which i suppose conscientious men will conceive weighty , yea and preponderating 〈◊〉 divisions that may happen if that of augustine be true , 〈…〉 . nor do i know that any such divisions or confusions have happened by reason of my te●●ises , or are likely to happen , but rather the contrary . and if any divisions be now about that opinion they were afore my treatises were published , and if they encrease they are rather to be imputed to the violence of those preachers , who instigate the magistrate to ex●●pate such as heretickes , who hold the opinion , then to me , who by practice and profession do hold communion with them , that differ from me , and abhorse separation from my 〈…〉 this regard . nor do i doubt but that if it were not for the rigous of many preachers , a way might be found for reformation in this matter without such a flame of division and confusion , as master marshall apprehends . but i wish that as in germany the rigidnesse of some men was the destruction of the protestants there , so it happen not in like manner in england . another objection i meet with is , that i have printed my treatises contrary to the int●mation , or ( as some alleage ) promise i made to master marshall : which master marshall writing to me thus expresseth ▪ pag. , . of his defence . but when after some friendly conference with you , you declared to me , that if you might enjoy liberty to exercise your minist●ry in some place , where you should not be put upon the practice of baptizing of infants , you could ( yea and intimated to 〈◊〉 that you would ) keep this opinion privat● to your selfe , provided only , that of any should preach in your pulpit for the baptizing of them , you should take your selfe bound in the same place to preach against it ; otherwise m●ns preaching or printing abroad should be no provocation to you . and pag. . master marshall faith thus . for even to new england have some sent your writings , and sufficiently in them showed your scorne of master thomas goodwin , master vines and my selfe , as our friends do from thence write unto us . that i may clearely and fully answer this charge , and the former , and state my selfe , and proceedings right in the thoughts of men , i think it necessary to make this following declaration . it hapned that in the yeare . reading the catechisme lecture at magdalen hall in oxford , and having occasion in one of my lectures to examine whether there be such a priviledge to the children of beleevers , that they should be accounted to belong to the covenant , and church of god , i found not sufficient ground either from gen. . . or from the institution of circumcision for the affirmative in that question . the substance of my reasons then against the argument drawn from circumcision to baptisme , i have compacted in that short discourse , which is part . , § . . pag. . of my examen , and begins at those words , i dare not assent &c. which being the chiefe thing i stand upon . i wonder master marshall so lightly passeth over calling it a tedious discourse , altering my words , and saying nothing to the reason i bring . wherefore then , and since i declined the urging of those reasons for it , and wholly rested on cor. . . conceiving that those words [ but now are they holy ] did import that priviledge to the children of a beleeving parent . and accordingly practised baptizing of infants upon the warrant of that text only , as i often told my auditors at lemster in hereford-shire , which some now about the city can witnesse . it happened after i was necessitated to leave my place through the violence of the kings party , after much wandring up and down with much danger to me and mine i came to the city of bristoll , and there preached for halfe a yeare , in which time in dispute with an antipaedobaptist , i urged that text cor. . . which he answered with so much evidence , as that although i did not fully assent unto him , yet as one that durst not oppose truth who ever brought it , i resolved with my selfe to consider that matter more full , and to that end being enfeebled with labour in preaching , and griefe by reason of the publike losses at that time , and advised by my physitian to remove out of bristoll , understanding the assembly was to sit in iuly . i resolved to adventure a journey to london through wiltshire , to conferre with my brethren of the assembly , and by the advantage of books in london to make further search into that point . it pleased god to stop my journey then by that sad , and unexpected overthrow neere devizes , which necessitated me to get away from bristoll by sea into pembrokeshire . while i was there i chanced to meet with vessius his theses de poedobaptismo , and therin reading cyprians and others of the ancients testimonies , i suspected that in point of antiquity the matter was not so cleare as i had taken it , but weighing those passages , i conceived that the ancients held only baptizing of infants in the case of supposed necessity , conceiving that by baptisme grace was given , and that all are to be saved from perishing and after in processe of time it became ordinary . wherefore i resolved if ever i came to london , to search further into those two points of the meaning of cor. . . and the history of paedobaptisme , and accordingly god having brought my wife and children with much difficulty to me after a second plunder , and by remarkable providence turning the wind against the ships when they went without us bringing us out of pembrokshire the day before it was appointed by the kings forces to send to apprehend me , making the wind serve for a speedy voyage in foure dayes from milford haven to the downes , presently upon the receiving us into the ship ( which i hope i shall ever remember to the praise of our god ) being come to london september . . i applied my selfe to enquire into the points forenamed . it happened that whereas i had this prejudice against the interpreting of the holinesse of the children cor. . . of legitimation that no learned protestant had so expounded it , meeting with 〈◊〉 his notes not long before printed at cambridge , i found him of that opinion , and after him musculus and melancthon ; and finding that the sanctification in the forepart of the verse , must be understood of lawfull copulation , expressed by beza thus , fidelis uxor potest cum infideli marito bona conscientia consuescere , which sense only was sutable to the case resolved by the apostle whether they might still continue together , i observed that the apostle speaking of the unbeleeving party mentions his unbeliefe , but when he mentions the beleever , expresseth only the relation of husband and wife , and that the reason of the apostle to prove their lawfull copulation is an argument ab absurdo and including this proposition . all those children whereof one of the parents is not sanctified to the other by lawfull cepulaetion are ●nclea●e , which being expounded of federall uncleanesse were false , and is only true of bastardy , i concluded , that it was the meaning of the apostle , and could be no other . whereupon when in a meeting of ministers in the city of london , the question was propounded what scripture there was for infant-baptisme , i told my breth●●n plainly , that i doubted there was none . this occasioned the dispute doctor homes speakes of which happened about january . concerning which though some gave out i was satisfied by it , others that i was so convinced , that i had nothing to say , yet the truth is , this was all the ground of those reports , that having at first stood upon it that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of such matth. . . ] was meant only of such like , it being urged that then it could not be a reason , why they should suffer those children to be brought to christ , i yeelded that it was to be expounded as beza expounded it , horum & similium ut supra , as i expresse in my exercitation , and further granted that if when christ saith [ of these is the kingdom of god ] he meant of their present state of regeneration they might be baptized , but that our saviour meant it of their present state i did not grant : and i further yeelded that i should not sticke at the baptisme of an infant concerning whom i should be certified from god that it was actually regenerate , and beleeving , meaning no more but this , that such a certificate would warrant me in such a case to baptize , it being all one with a profession of faith , as signes made by a dumbe person that he was a christian would warrant his baptisme . this concession being made meerely upon a supposition of an extraordinary revelation , first ma●ter b●●ke , and after him master marshall have often urged , though they have been often tould , that a common rule cannot be drawn from an extraordinary case . not long after that conference , my most loving and reverend father in law master henry scudder fearing the event of this matter , after some writing that past betweene us , advised me to draw up the reasons of my doubts , and he undertook to present them to the committee chosen ( as i conceived it ) to give satisfaction about that point , which i conceived might well be by the leave of the parliament , as the appointing the assembly to give satisfaction about some doubts in taking the covenant . and if the committee as a committe could not do it ( which i suppose they might have done by communicating what after debate was prepared for the assembly , which i presume was , certainly it should have been accurately done with examination of what could be objected , afore those articles in the directory about this matter were passed ) yet particular members might have done somewhat to satisfie me , who would have been then , and shall be yet satisfied with one convincing argument , that it was christs appointment , that the infants of beleevers , because they are borne of beleever are to be baptized . according to the advise given in a short space , i first drew up the nine first arguments in my exercitation , which were delivered as i relate in my examen in february and march . and after in iuly following , the other three . which i said in my examen were delivered to master tuckney , but master marshall tels me he doth deny it , yet i conceive my father scudder told me so , who i am sure would speake truth , and when i read that to him he did not correct me in it , and master thomas goodwin still saies he had them after master tuckney had perused them . besides these papers , that satisfaction might more compendiously be given me at the motion of my reverend father in law , i set down in one page of a paper in quarto , the maine ground of my doubt , and delivered it to him , whether he communicated it to any else i know not : my end was that satisfaction to me might more easily be procured . this short thing i after put in my examen , part. . § . . as i said above , which master marshall calls a tedious discourse , though it containes lesse then forty lines , and if it had been well answered , might have eased master marshall of the rest of his labour . now the papers before named , i perceived were tossed up and down from one to another , and it seemes master edwards the controversie lecturer at christ-church got them , and picking out some passages , but concealing others that would have cleared them under pretence of refuting them , with the writing of another which he joyned with mine , meerly abused me in the pulpit at christ-church : which i immediately charged him with after his sermon in the vestry , and he only excused it by telling me he named me not , though there were sundry ministers there that knew he meant me . but this it seemes is like master edwards his justice to other men . in this time i attended master thomas goodwins lectures about that argument , had the patience to heare master edwards his discourse at christ church , and read many treatises and sermons , in many of which i found rather invectives than arguments . it happened that the parishioners of fanchurch became disaffected to me , and refused to heare me , though i medled not at all with that matter in the pulpit , and i perceived my maintenance was likely to be withdrawn at the end of the yeare . hereupon one of the assembly my loving friend , understanding that the honourable societies of the temples wanted a preacher , sollicited the bringing of me thither . but the matter was by the honourable house of commons referred to the assembly , who chose a committee to nominate a preacher for them , of which committee master marshall was one , by whom i was rejected . presently after which rejection , having occasion of businesse in the behalfe of some godly pembrokeshire ministers , with that worthy gentleman master iohn w●i●e chaire-man of the committee for plundered ministers , he would needs argue with me about that point of infant-baptisme , and after some dispute , he desired to have my answer to his argument in writing . which occasion i tooke to lay open my condition to him in a letter , which begot no other fruit but a little treatise intituled , infants baptisme proved lawfull by scripture . shortly after in august . i met with master marshal's sermon , and finding the vehemency of his spirit against antipaedobaptists , and having had experience both of his , and master whites inflexiblenesse by my former writings , and seeing no likelihood of imploiment and maintenance for me and mine , except i would gather a separated church , which i durst not do ▪ as not knowing how to justifie such a practice , i resolved to make a full answer to master marshals sermon , and finished it november . and having with much difficulty transcribed one copy , and gotten another written for me , i sent my own to master marshall , who received it december . about a fortnight after master marshall sent me word , that he would find a time to speake with me : i sent him word , that for the returning answer to my writing , i would not straiten him ; but forasmuch as by his rejecting me i missed being nominated to the temple , and i was then brought to great straights , i requested that he would declare as occasion should offer it selfe , whether he held me fit for the ministery or not , notwithstanding my dissent from him in that point . his answer was , he desired to know first whether i would keep my opinion to my selfe . i returned this answer in writing by my father scudder . i request you to returne this answer to master marshall , that whereas i requested him to declare whether he thought me fit for the ministery or not , notwithstanding my dissent abo●t poedobaptism , and he demands of me a promise of silence in that point , i conceive he is bound by the rules of justice , mercy , and prudence to do it without requiring that condition , and that he hath no reason to be jealous of me considering my carriage in this matter . neverthelesse when i shall understand what promise he would have from me , and what is intended to be done by him for the discussing the point , and clearing of truth , to which i ought not be wanting , and what advantage i may have by his agency for my imployment and maintenance , i shall give him a punctuall answer , and am resolved for peace sake to yeeld as farre as i may without v●●lating the solemne covenant i have taken , and betraying truth and innocency . decem. . this begat the friendly conference mentioned by master marshall , which was decem. . . in the morning afore the assembly sate . at the very beginning of that conference , master marshall having this last written message in his hand , & reading those words , [ and he demands of me a promise of silence in that point ] told me that he did not demand of me a promise of silence in that point ; for that was beyond his line : this was his very expression . as soon as ever i heard those words , i conceived my selfe freed from the snare i most feared of making a promise , which as the case might stand , i could not keep with a good conscience . then master marshall spake to this effect , that yet for the satisfaction of those who should enquire of him concerning me , he desired to know my intentions . whereupon i dealt freely , that i intended not to publish my opinion in the pulpit , if i might be where i should not be put to baptize : for i conceived it not likely , that there would be a reformation of that thing in this age , there having been so long a practise of infant-baptisme , and such a prejudice in men against the opposers of it : yet i told him that if any should preach to that people i had charge of , that which i conceived to be an errour , i did resolve to oppose it there , otherwise other mens preaching abroad should be no provocation to me : so that it is cleare , i made no promise , and that intimation of mine intentions which i made was only , that i intended not to preach my opinion in that place unlesse provoked there . and this any man may perceive was my meaning by master marshals owne relation , in which the prov●● is rightly expressed ; that if any should preach in my pulpit for baptizing infants , i tooke my selfe bound in the same place to preach against it , otherwise mens preaching or printing abroad should be no provocation to me ; to wit , to preach that opinion in that place . and whereas master marshall alleadgeth this for his quietus est , he might have remembred , that i told him in expresse termes , that it lawes were likely to be enacted to make the deniall of infant-baptisme penall , i held my selfe bound in conscience to appeare in publique about that matter : yea , and master marshall told me he intended me some animadversions on my examen ; whence it may be collected , that neither master marshall nor my selfe had agreed to lay aside the dispute it selfe . it is true , master marshall did endeavour to possesse me with this , that reformation of congregations might be without altering the use of infant-baptisme . to which i answered , that though much might be done other wayes , yet it would never be right , till christs way of baptizing were restored . about two houres after , master marshall comming to me , in the presence of master obadiah sedgwicke , repeating the intimation of my intention aforenamed , with the proviso , told me , he would give testimony in my behalfe as i desired . upon this i parted with master marshall , and master sedgewicke walking with me , commended my proceeding in that matter , and made a notion to me , which came to nothing . upon this i went home very chearfull , not only because i prized amity with master marshall , and there was a likely way of my imploiment and maintenance ; but chiefly because i was freed from that i feared , as a snare , the promise of silence , and there were great hopes that my brethren in the ministery would not be rigid in ejecting out of the ministery and communion , those that dissented from them in that point , and so separation and mutuall persecution might be prevented ( which was and is still the great feare that possesseth my spirit ) and liberty might in time be given for the shining forth of the light in this thing , and by degrees reformation might be perfected , which i conceived the only safe and happy way . upon these considerations i acquainted sundry of my near friends with this mercy of god to me , and being requested to joyne in keeping a day of thanksgiving at anth●l●● , i 〈◊〉 . following for publique mercies , i made a speciall memento in my booke of speciall passages of my life , to blesse god that day for the conference i had with master marshall in peace and amity : what master marshall did after for me i do not well know , i beleeve he did as he promised , and after a triall of me three lords-daies at the temple , i was in the end of ianuary chosen by the treasurers , and and sundry others of the members of both the honourable societies of the temples to be their preacher for a yeare . after these things , being acquainted with a law made in new-england , and proceedings against those that denied baptizing of infants , i yeelded to the sending of my examen thither , though not so large as it is now printed ( for the dissertation about a speech of master cotton part. . sect. . pag , . and some other things were added since ) meerly to occasion the study of this matter more exactly , and to allay the vehemency of their spirits , and proceedings against those that dissented from them , and therewith i sent this short epistle . to all the elders of the churches of christ in new-england , and to each in particular , by name to the pastor and teacher of the church of god at boston there these present . reverend brethren , vnderstanding that there is some disquiet in your churches about poedobaptisme , and being moved by some that honour you much in the lord , and desire your comfortable account at the day of christ , that i would yeeld that a copy of my examen of master marshall his sermon of infant-baptisme might be transcribed to be sent to you i have consented thereto , and do commend it to your examination in like manner , as you may perceive by the reading of it i did to master marshals ; not doubting but that you will as in gods presence ; and accountable to christ iesus weigh the thing , remembring that of our lord christ , ioh. . . iudge not according to the appearance , but judge righteous judgement . to the blessing of him who is your god , and our god , your iudge , and our iudge i leave you , and the flocke of god over which the holy ghost hath made you overseers , and rest , from my study at the temple in london , may . . your brother and fellow servant in the worke of christ , iohn tombes . the accounting of this act a shewing of my scorne of master thomas goodwin , master vines , and master marshall , i take rather to be the effect of a distempered palat , than a right-discerning taste . after this , sundry things happened which did induce me to yeeld to the importunity of those that sollicited earnestly the publishing of my writings for the publike good . i had sent to master marshall after his returne from scotland , to know what he would do about the motions i made in the epilogue of my examen , for the discussing of the point in difference between him and me . the best of the answer i received was , that sith i had now a place for my ministery without baptizing infants , he expected i would be quiet . about that time i had occasion to make triall of the assemblies approbation of me . the examiner told me , that there were many of the assembly that did scruple in conscience , the giving approbation to me because of my opinion . the directory had been published , and an ordinance of parliament to make the not using it penall . preparations were to send bills to the king , among which i assured my selfe that would be one , which if once past , it would be too late to make an afterplea . the sermons in publique were still as earnest against this tenet as ever . the people of the city much enquired into this matter . a publique disputation was once allowed about it to which i was earnestly solicited but for weighty reasons refused it . sundry came to me to request the perusall of my papers for their satisfaction many learned , godly , and prudent persons , both of them that differed in judgement , as well as those that agreed with me , moved me to have them printed , for the bringing of truth to light . i saw not wherein any danger to the state or church might be created by the printing of them , and which was beyond all to me ▪ i was confirmed it was a truth i held , had tried all fit meanes to have it examined , had been guided in the searching of it , and preserved for this businesse by many remarkeable providences , and thereupon after prayer to god by my selfe , and with others for his direction , i yeelded to the printing of them , not out of a restlesse spirit to vent my selfe , as master marshall imagined , nor out of any mind to encrease the divisions and confusions of the time ( then which there is nothing my spirit and waies more abhorre ) but to vindicate truth , performe my duty to which i was bound by solemne covenant , to do my best for the preventing of that sad evill of removing out of the ministery , and out of communion , and out of the state also them that could not yeeld to infant-baptisme , which is more likely then any thing to encrease our divisions , and make tumults , especially if the relations , and instigations of some fiery spirits prevaile . and in this , i doubt not but i have dealt faithfully to god and to the state , and charitably to other men , without violating any engagement , what ever i suffer in mine owne person . i must confesse had i seen any inclination in the assembly , or master marshall , or other leading-men to examine my writings in a faire scholastike way , and had i had meanes to be able to beare the charges of an impression , and no lawes likely to be established to make the holding of my opinion penall , i had resolved not to publish my writings in english , but in latine , and therefore i first framed my exercitation in latine , conceiving the assembly would have apprehended my aime and intention , to be to deale only with schollars in this matter : but all things falling out crosse to my expectation , i conceived it was the will of god it should be printed as it was . thus much for the justifying the publishing of my treatises . the next charge against me is my abusing my antagonists . and in this master geree in his epistle to the lord mountague speakes thus . the author whom i answer , hath used his opponents more coursly then was conventent to their worth , and places . but all men count his ●leightings of opponents a blemish to his worke . master marshall in his defence , pag. . for even thither have some sent your writings , and sufficiently in them shewed your scorne of m. thomas goodwin , master vines , and my selfe , as our friends do from thence write to us . and pag. . i alleadge all this to shew , you should not thus vilifie and scorne their ( meaning the ancients ) practice and grounds , as if the century writers , and generally all protestant writers , yea master marshals owne friend , if i mistake not , the●philus philokyrtaces lon●ardiensis in his dies dominica , when they note the naevi quisquiliae blemishes , and errors of fathers and councils did vilifie and scorne them : which if it be an uncharitable imputation to them , it is so to me , unlesse it be thought that men cannot conceive bad enough of an antipaedobaptist . pag. . throughout your whole treatise you strive to make an ostentation of reading , and put abundance of scoffes and jeeres upon them who are of contrary mind to you . pag. . you powre out such abundance of scorne upon them , who think otherwise then you do . i answer , . that the words interpreted as scoffing & scorning , and jeering are not such , but usuall school-expressions frequent in schooles , and in the most temperate writings of the most moderate men of the same profession , towards them that dissent from them , so that i assure my selfe , had not my antagonists before distasted my worke , and consequently the author , they would not have been so construed . how ever master geree say all men count my sleighting opponents a blemish to my worke , yet one i am sure commended my writing for the contrary , that i had discovered the weaknesse of the opponents by such expressions , nor did my father scudder except against those passages as offensive which master marshall doth , though more then halfe was read to him , and observed by him of purpose to avoid offence , afore it was sent to master marshall . . that there were many reasons why master marshall should have otherwise conceived of me in those expressions , as namely my declaration of my intention , and petition thereupon in the prologue of the examen , part. . sect. . my respective speeches of master marshall in the same place , pag. . and part ▪ . sect . pag. . and also in the epilogue , part. . sect. . and if master marshall had remembred it , when in our friendly conference he had told me , he did not expect so high expressions from me , which i conceived he meant of my downright censuring of his arguments , not contemning his abilities , and i told him i conceived it necessary to do so , because he called his arguments undeniable , and had charged the anabaptists with a bloudy sentence , i desired an instance of such an expression as was offensive , which being given by master marshall , i left those words out in the printed book , and would have dealt so with any other , had i conceived it would have been so construed . i might adde further , that when master geree came to me the day he published his ▪ booke , a moneth afore master marshals defence came forth , i told him he did not conceive aright of me in that charge in his epistle dedicatory , and gave him my reason , and told him that i might have much wrong by it , and desired that intimation might be given to master marshall thereof . which whether he did or no i know not , but i supposed it might have occasioned master marshall if he could not alter his copy , yet to have added something in the beginning or end of his book , to have allayed the asperity of that charge . but what are those passage in which i powre out such abundance of scorne on . master vines , master thomas goodwin , and master marshall ? all the passage of master vines thus interpreted is examen , part . sect. . but how knowes master vines this ? i do not take master vines for a prophet , and to inferre this by reason , the anabaptist u●geth matth. . . against paedobaptisme , ergo he will urge rom. . . against magistracy , is in my slender apprehension a baculo ad angulum . he had said , the anabaptists which urged matth . against padobaptisme when we shall ●e thriven to his full stature , will undermine magistracy by rom. . . which words seeme to imply , that an anti-paedobaptist is but a young anti-magistrate , and that the same vegetative faculty , that is the same reason that did nourish the one would beget the other . this inference being unreasonable , yet spoken to such an auditory by a man of such eminency at such a time , and therefore tending to the suppression of truth , and them that held it , i conceived it necessary to blunt the edge of it , without any scorne of him , whom i respect as my loving neighbour , but for necessary defence of truth , in a schoole expression used by many protestant writers , and among others , by master gataker in his rejoynder to can in defence of master bradsha● , pag. . as for master thomas goodwin it is true , part. . sect. . pag. . of my examen i said thus . i remember master thomas goodwin , who hath handled this matter of poedobaptisme , by spinning out similitudes and conjectures ( fit indeed for the common people that are more taken with resemblances then syllogismes ) rather then with close arguments . in this passage saies master marshall , pag. . i stept out of the way to reproach master thomas goodwin , that i vilifie him as a man who by spinning out similitudes , and conjectures deludes his a●ditory with such things rather then with satisfactory arguments , that why like ishmael my sword should be against every man he cannot tell , that he knowes him to be a learned godly divine , and an eminent preacher of the gospell of christ , and his worth not to be blasted by my scornfull speeches , that i have set down his notions otherwise then he preached . to all which i answer . that passage of mine was not to vilifie master goodwin , but to passe a right censure on his sermons , as i did in like manner on doctor featlies treatise , pag. . without any vilifying of his learning , because i saw the esteem of them held men in errour . which is so frequent , and just a thing , that it was held meet that an advertisement should be added to the new annotations on the bible , to prevent the danger of some passages in favour of the prelacy and liturgie . hanc veniam petimusque damusque vicissim . and this fact of mine is most injuriously construed , as if i did this like an ishmael that loved to have my sword against every man , as if i affected contention : then which there could not be a thing more falsly charged on me , though in pursuance of truth i held my selfe bound to examine every mans sayings , which i tell master marshall in the epilogue of my examen , to be for exact disquisition of it . doctor twisse in his vindiciae gratiae against arminius often makes digressions , and doth vocare ad partes molinaeus , piscator , lubbertus , alvarez , &c. he writes against doctor iackson , master cotton , &c. master gataker against doctor ames , voetius , balmford , lucius , gomarus , master walker &c. doth any man therefore make them like ishmael whose sword is against every man ? master marshall saies that i vilifie master thomas goodwin as a man who by spinning out similitudes and coniectures deludes his auditors , and then gives him an e●●omium , in which he would have it believed that i charged master thomas goodwin as a man wont to do thus , whereas my words 〈◊〉 only concerning that matter of paedobaptisme , which doth nothing prejudice him in his other workes , of which i have in my examen , pag. . given an encomium . and for my censure , it was grounded partly on his own expressions , that in sundry points pertaining to that matter we must be content with hints , which is all one with conjectures , and partly on the maine principles of his dispute ; which were , that forasmuch as the promises to beleevers children are indefinite , as acts . . luke . . god hath so cast the order of his election , that multitudes come out of the loynes of his people , that administration of the lords supper and baptisme is to be by a judgement , that we are to judge any infant-children of beleevers to be holy by parcels , though not all in the lumpe , that they are therefore to be accounted holy with a reall saving holinesse , cor. , . matth. . . and therefore to be baptized according to the rule implyed , act. . . concerning which i say still that i expected arguments , but counted my selfe deluded with these conjectures , as finding nothing to his purpose in any of these texts , which were the maine he alleadged , they neither proving that god had ordered his election so as for the most part to run through the loynes of beleevers , nor that we are to judge any of the infants of beleevers to be in the covenant , or elect by parcels , though not all in the lumpe , nor that baptisme is to be administred by such a conjecturall or uncertaine judgement . but forasmuch as i have disputed at large in my examen , part. . sect. . part . sect. . . about the promises to beleevers children , and examined all the texts forementioned , and shewed that we are not to administer ordinances by our conjecturall judgement , concerning gods election , or inward holinesse , god having not made that the condition of his servants applying his ordinances , which can be infallibly known to none but himselfe , as master marshall rightly in his sermon of baptizing infants , page . but according to the certaine judgement of a persons profession of the faith , i shall not examine this thing here at large : only i thought it necessary to say thus much , not to vilifie mr g●odwin , but to shew the weakenesse of the cause , for which no better proofes could be brought , then such uncertaine guesses even by a man so able as master thomas goodwin , who hath in other things shewed his sufficiency beyond other men . and though i deny not but i might mistake him in some passages , or not exactly reci●● his words ; yet i do not conceive i have misreported his sermons , and however , and whenever they shall be printed , i hope i shall be able to produce the written notes of others to verifie my setting down his notions ; yet if i should mistake passages in sermons not printed , it were excusable , in comparison of the usage i have met with from doctor homes , and master marshall himselfe , who in not a few places , yea i may truly say all along , do in their framing answers to my written speeches , crook my words where they are streight , and they might have discerned them so to be , had their hast in publishing their answers permitted them to ponder my writings . as for instance : master marshall had averred that the christian church hath been in possession of infant-baptisme for the space of . yeares and upwards , i replyed , that if it were true , yet it is not so much as may be said for episcopacy , &c. and after , for antiquity not apostolicall there are plaine testimonies of episcopacy , &c. being in use before any of the testimonies you or any other can produce for baptizing of infants . now m. marshall in his d●fe●c● , pag. ▪ . first sets down my words thus , as much may be said for episcopacy , &c. that there are plaine testimonies , for episcopacy &c. before any testimonies can be produced for the baptizing of infants , and then tels me , that the ancients testifie that the baptizing infants was received in all ages , and from the very apostles as a divine institution , no such thing of episcopacy , if i can make it good , i shall do a very acceptable service to the papists , anabaptists , and prelaticall party , if i cannot , i should do well to revoke that bold assertron . in which master marshall deales not candidly with me , when i had said , if it were tru● , yet it is not so much as may be said for episcopacy , ( meaning that which he had said ) the church hath been in possession of infant-baptisme . yeares and upwards , master marshall sets down my words , as if i had said , as much may be said for episcopacy , and in the latter passage leaves out the words [ antiqu●ty not apostolicall ] and [ being in use ] and then insinnates , as if i had asserted , that the ancients say as much for the divine institution of episcopacy as for infant-baptisme . whereas i only spake of the possession and being in use , nothing of the divine institution , and my assertion is so manifest , that even the advertisement at the end of the new annot : on the bible , confesseth it a custome very ancient , and neere the apostles time , as chamier truly acknowledgeth , lib. . c. . de oecumenico pontifice , tom. . pag. mol●n in his epistle to bishop andrewes , ( if my memory deceive me not ) confessed it to have been ab ipsis apostolorum temporibus . and i conceive master marshals leaving out in his proposition of the first part , [ as n●w ta●ght ] which was in mine , and framing it thus , in opposition to mine [ infant-baptisme no late innovation ] may occasion an unwary reader to conceive i had simply asserted it to be a late innovation . now this course , though it may perhaps not prejudice my writings with those that are able and willing to take paines to compare together writing with writing , yet the greatest part either through want of leasure or skill , or through disaffection to me or mine opinion , or through a secure resting on ▪ master marshals word neglecting it , it is a great injury to me , and to the truth , as for master thomas goodwins sermons of infant-baptisme , whether my censure of them , or master robert bayly one of the scottish commissioners charge in his dissuasive , cha. . pag. . do more disparage them or him , i leave it to master marshal's , master goodwin's and their friends consideration . it hath been excepted against me that i say , pag. . of my examen , which if he can apply to infants , erit mihi magnus apollo , which is no worse then what master gataker hath animadv . in luci : part. . sect. . pag. . inter iustum & insontem qui distinctionem iustam dederit . erit is mihi magnus apollo : and that i have said master goodwin dictated at bow , which is so harmelesse an expression , that even the preface to the new annot : and the advertisement call their writings , their dictates . let us consider the scorns put upon mr. marshall . when i urged mr. geree in private conference to instance in particulars , wherein i had dealt coursely or sleighted my opponents , expecting he would have shewed me where i had falsified their words , or belyed , or derided their persons ; instead of any such matter he alleadgeth that passage , part . of my examination , pag. . of which mr. marshall , pag. of his defence sayes , this you cast away with scorne , affirming it to be an easie answer , because it is easie to be answered ; which possibly may be thought to have some lepidity ( which is sure but a veniall sin in one tired , as i was with hewing at such a knotty piece as mr. marshalls sermon ) but how it should be a casting of scorne i see not . in the same place mr. marshall sayes , i make my selfe merry with the word virtuall , as if the examining the sense of a distinction , were making merry with it , pag. . he sayes , i wonder you should seeke to cast an odium upon my expression ( as you doe here , and severall other times ) by saying it is a joyning with arminius . i answer , where i said he joynes with arminius , i conceive still i said right ; not to east an odium upon his expressions , but to shew the errour of them . and for that particular i charged mr. marshall with , in calling proselytes , who sought justification by the works of the law abrahams seed , he joyns with arminius in his analysis , c. . ad rom. and opposeth bayne , it was right . for arminius saith , ratio est à duplice semine abrahami , quorum unum tantum verbo isto & proposito comprehendatur . and this double seed of abraham he calls the sons of promise , whom he defines , sunt illi qui fide in christum justitiam & salutem quaerunt , and the children of the flesh , whom he defines ; qui per opera legis justittam , & salutem consectantur . ( i confesse it was in my copy through an easie , but not materiall oversight ; consequuntur , yet in the english i render it , follow : but why this should puzzle mr. marshall i know not ) and to this calling some abrahams seed , who no otherwise were abrahams seed , but in that they professing judaisme , sought righteousnesse by the law , bayne rightly opposeth that speech , that those that conceive carnally of the law seeking righteousnesse by it without something else adjoyned , to wit naturall generation ; are never called abrahams seed . yet mr. marshall in his sermon , and again in his defence , pag. . calls those abrahams seed , who are not so by naturall generation , or by faith ; but are proselytes , seeking iustification by the works of the law : which is the very ground of arminius his perverting the ninth of the romans to maintain his opinion of respective predestination . as for master marshall's vindication of himselfe , it goes upon this mistake , as if i had charged him with agreeing with arminius in the expounding the ninth to the romans , and in his opinion of election upon foreseen faith , whereas i only charged him with joyning with arminius in this particular , to call the proselytes that were jewes by profession , but sought righteousnesse by the law , abrahams seed ; pag. . mr. marshall sayes , that i try all my wits and artifices to shake the strength of his second conclusion by scornfull speeches , &c. the truth is , i was put to the triall of all my wits to find out the meaning of his second conclusion ; but as for the strength of it , it is so small , that he that can but shew the ambiguity in it , may refute it without much adoe . as for the scornfull speeches mr. marshall can find but one , which was the calling of his second conclusion , a cothurnus ; which i never dream't would have been taken for an expression of scorne , but a proverbiall phrase signifying an ambiguous speech used by david pareus in his judgement on the articles sent to the synod of dort , and by others the most grave , and solid divines , i said , pag. . that mr. marshall did very carnally imagine the church of god to be like civill corporations , this he calls pag. . a scornfull puffe , but why he should call it so , i am yet to seek . pag. . he sayes , that i sleight and scorn that which i know nor how to answer , but it would be hard for mr. marshall to verify this in any particular ; pag. . he calls the use of the word coccysme very frequent among schollars , and of the same meaning with crambe used by mr. marshall , pag. . a scornfull expression ; and because i say , pag. . of my examen , your argument needs a swimmer of delos to bring it out of the deep , this he calls pag. . my method to cast a scorn upon an argument , which is only the using a proverbiall speech used by spanheimius in his dubia evangelica , and others concerning a thing that there is need of skill to find it out , pag. . . in answering the argument brought to prove that holinesse , cor. . . is not federall mr. marshall sayes . all the reply you make to 〈◊〉 , pag. . is to bestow a few scoffes upon it ; that my answer is to deny the conclusion , that i shew no faultinesse either in the matter , or the forme of the argument , that the scope that i mention is but a meer figment ; that i doe as good as say that the objectour can make no argument out of it , and that therefore i need make no answer . and that in one place i grant the minor , then the major ; and thus you most gallantly vapour upon me : and after , i durst leave all schollers to judge , whether my answer deserves all this scorne ; and after , you thought to carry it with more advantage to you by scoffing , then by solemn refuting ; and after . truly sir , i am perswaded all learned men either laugh at , or pity this vanity of your disputing ; and pag. not once suspecting i should have met with an adversary so uningenious to say no worse , who would have said the balking of this question , had been the yeelding of the cause . to all this i reply , that my words are misrecited by mr. marshall . i did not say , his answer is to deny the conclusion , but thus , i find no answer to the argument here , except it be an answer to an argument to deny the conclusion . nor doe i say , that the baulking of the question , whether the beleever , when he commits fornication with an infidell , remove the barre in the unbeleeving party , as that the child is ( in the beleeving parents right ) to be reckoned to belong to the covenant of grace , and church of god , had been the yeelding of the cause , which he makes my uningenuity . . the passages only taxe a defect in logick in mr. marshall in that place , but doe indeed containe neither matter of scorn , nor gallant vapouring . . and however learned men pitty or laugh at the vanity of my disputing , i doubt not to make it appeare ; that neither mr. marshall nor mr. geree have yet made an answer to that argument , which doth overthrow his exposition of federall holinesse , that though mr. geree sayes there was ignoratio elenchi , yet indeed there is no ignoratio elenchi , the thing being concluded that was to be concluded ; and whereas mr. marshall first new makes the major , and then denies it , he deales not rightly in putting in words to anothers argument , and yet the major is rather true with his addition , and then mr. marshall puts a minor of his owne ; and denies it . but the truth is , the argument should be thus framed : that holinesse which might be though one of the parents , were not sanctified to the other , is not here meant ; but faederall holinesse might be , though one of the parents were not sanctified to the other . ergo , federall holinesse is not here meant ; or thus , that uncleanesse wh●ch doth not agree to all the children of those whose parents are not sanctified one in or to another is not here meant : but federall uncleanesse doth not agree to all the children of those whose parents are not sanctified one in or to another ; ergo , federall uncleannesse is not here meant . but these things i reserve till i review the dispute about the meaning of ▪ cor. . concerning which i doubt not , but if god spare me life and liberty i shall make good my argument , and answer mr. marshalls exceptions , yea and further shew , that if the sanctification and bolinesse be taken from the faith of one party , and not from the relation of husband and wife ; the apostles reason as they expound it , would have served to resolve two fornicatours whereof one is a beleever , the other remaining in infidelity ; that they may live together as well as two married persons . pag. . i said , surely this is a s●●nd signe that you are not likely to make good your ground , when you have yeelded so much : this he calls pag. . an idle scoffe , enough in it there is nothing like a scoffe . pag. . i say . but your fe●●hing such a compasse about , makes me imagine your attempt will prove but a parturiunt montes , the mountai●es bring forth . this mr marshall calls a jeere , and a confident scoffe , and i confesse this carries the shew of a jeere , when the other part of the verse is ●●●ed ; but i left it out of purpose , that it might not be so taken ; conceiving mr. marshall would have construed it ( as even grave scholars use it ) to signify an attempt that is faire in shew , but vaine in the issue . pag. . i say of mr. marshall's consequence which he called undeniable and clear , thus : if you apprehend clear consequence in it , you may enjoy your conceii ; nos non sumus adeò sagaces , we are not so quick witted ; this mr. marshall sayes , pag. . is to seek to render an adversary ridi●ulous , by jeeres and scoffes . but the truth is that was not mine intent , but the griefe of my spirit when i wrote this , being then rejected by mr. marshall in the busines of the temple , being told that it was the assemblies rule not to nominate any to a place in the ministery that questioned the baptizing of infants , pinched with the sadnesse of my condition , and considering how the magistrate was incited against such as could not subscribe to mr. marshalls judgement , upon his reasons which he called undeniable , an indignation that men should be undone for not assenting to so poore proofes , made me after i saw my exercitation stirred not to use that quicknesse in those expressions ; which i am perswaded , had i not done , the point would not have been examined by them to this day : p. . mr marshall sayes , your answer is a scoffe out of horace , amph●ra coepit institui , &c. which is no scoffe , but a speech often in the writings of scholars , used to signify , that one fals short of that he should prove . pag. . i speak of mr. marshalls discourse about gods sealing conditionally to infants , & their after agnizing thus . and therefore this that you make an objection i looke on as a frivolous supposing a chimaera , and then disputing about it . this mr marshalls calls a scoffe . but what is more usuall with schollars , then to call a fiction a chimaera , without the imputation of scoffing ? and these are all the supposed scoffes against mr marshall , that i find noted by him . now that it may appeare how unequally mr marshall deales with me , ( that i mention no other ) that most accurate and grave writer mr gatak●r in a little thing containing but pages , in a full letter intituled antithesis , in answer to two protestants godly men , and as eminent as mr marshall ; doctor ames an english-man professor of divinity at franiker in westfriesland , and gisbert voetius professour of virecht , about lusory lots : hath these passages , pag. . sibyllae qod fertur folium : sed qod nisi sibylla nobis explicuerit interpretaturum alium credo autore dempto neminem , pag. . cum absurdit as illius detecta a plane jam fuerit & reverà defensoribus suis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , pag. . quam invovoluta tandem ista ? &c , de sensu si ambigimus , condonabit nobis spero , amesius ; neqe enim hebettoris paulò ingenii qi sumus ista facilè asseq●imur , pag. . verum ista prout & superiora ploeraque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , pag. . nam qae s●quntur mihi aenigmata sunt mera , & sphinge vel oedipo opus habent , pag. . nam qae sequntur non sunt nauci , pag. . neqè enim perspicuè loqi amat amesius ; sed anguillarum in morem ambiguae locutionis coeno sua involvere & occultare solenne habet , pag. . nam in testimonii illius , qod plurimum in hac causa , ponderis obtinet interpretatione , meras agis praestigias ; eaqe proponis , qae sibi invicem adversantur , &c. pag. . verum pronuntiata ista qae ex hic positis tamen profluunt , sunt ab omni sensu humano prorsus aliena . ita levior deprehenditur ratiuncula ista , qae pro argumento tamen achillaeo ac palmario proponitur , qàm sunt ipsa farfari folia , pag. . qàm imbelle 〈◊〉 elumbe planè argumentum , & viro tanto prorsus indignum . ecqis tam vecors ut ista admittat ? pag. . qo teneam vultus mutantem protea modo , pag. . vanitatis illos potius incuset amesius , qi tam vana nobis aggesserunt , seqe etiam qi adversus istud objecta tanqam adversus illud opposita proponit ; tum consecutionibus è suo cerebro confictis elidendis negot●um sibi frustra facessit , pag. . cum aliorum , tum & amesis etiam ipsius dogma futile , pag. . qarum ille q●●sdam tanqam cramben toties recoctam reponit , pag ▪ . affirmatur non probatur , quasi pythagoricum illud 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . sufficeret . which passages as i conceive no men ever charged with scoffing so neither doe i conceive justly might mine , which shew no more sleighting or contempt of my opponents then his doe . but pag. . of my examen i say , the misunderstanding of colos . . . . hath been the ignis fatuus , foolish fire , which h●th led men out of the way in this matter into bogs . upon this mr marshall pag. . thus speaks to me . truly sir , were these scorns of being led by foolish fire into bogs &c. cast upon my selfe only , it were nothing ; but when they are thus cast in the faces of all divines , ancient and modern ; all harmonies and confessions ( except onely a handfull of upstart anabaptists ) as if they were all such simple ones that an ●gnis fatuus , a fools fire might lead them into any bogs ; i can hardly forbeare to tell you : it is an argument of an arrogant spirit . i pitty mr marshall's distemper , that occasioned this passage , to speak of casting scornes in the faces of all divines ancient and modern , as if all divines did expound that text , in that misunderstood way i mention ; to talke of all harmonies and confessions , instead of the harmony of confessions , which containes not many ; and one i am sure it is not against , to wit the english confession : to speak disdainfully of them that are his opponents under the term of upstart anabaptists to make the using of the term ignis fatuus , to resemble a misunderstanding a scoffe ; to impute it to me as if i had accused all divines ancient and mod●rn all harmonies and confessions of simplicity : as if a misunderstanding might not be in all men out of common infirmity ▪ to impute it to me as if i had said into any bogs , whereas i said , hath led men out of the way in this matter into b●gs meaning the opinions ; that baptisme succeeds into the place , room ▪ and use of circumcision : and therefore that the command to circumcise male infants at the eighth day , is a command to baptize any infants of beleivers at any time ; which errours i call bogs , as being indeed anti-evangelicall errours : though all the divines on earth should avouch them , yet this i may say without arrogance of spirit , in just and necessary avouching of the truth . that reverend and learned divine mr gataker in his answer to mr george walkers vindication , pag. . sayes thus . howsoever i suppose it no such hainour matter in something to depart from all writers knowne to 〈◊〉 that have gone before us . sure i am that junius and tremellius in translating and expounding some passages of scripture , departed from all known interpreters than had gone before them as in that place , mal. . . that in all , even the best translations ever before ran ; if thou , hate her , put her away ▪ pareus comment : in cor. . . miror verò hoc loco omnes ferè● interpretes fictionem statuere . i might fill a volume with interpretations different from all foregoing ; yea , what interpreter of note is there who doth not differ from all others , and yet it is not counted arrogance ? besides , if this be not allowed upon cogent reason , how shall scriptures and truths be cleared ? how shall we avoyd idolizing of them that goe before us , and subjecting our judgments to them ? and that i spake right , it may appeare in that ▪ in the principall thing of my exposition of colos . . . to wit , that baptisme is mentioned not to shew that it succeeds circumcision , but because it is one of the means whereby we have communion with christ , and are comple 〈◊〉 in him , and therefore faith is joyned with baptisme , and alleaged to prove it ; gal. . , , . ( not as in mr marshall's defence , gal. . , . ) and rom. . , ▪ . which plainly shewes that here baptisme is not mentioned to that end mr marshall expresseth , & upon which the misunderstanding of this place was occasioned , but to another ; and therefore it proves not that which mr marshall would gather from it ; if it did , it would prove that faith succeeds into the roome place , and use of circumcision as well as baptisme . to this mr marshall plainly sayes , but is not this the same , sense with mine . but he after spends a great many words to no purpose ( as he is wont to doe when he mistakes my reason ) imagining i had reasoned thus . baptisme is named as one of the meanes whereby we come to be compleat in christ , therefore i● d●th not succeed in the room of circumcision , whereas my re●son is t●us . baptisme is alleaged as one of the meanes whereby we come to bee compleat in christ , therefore there was another reason besides the succession of it into the place of circumcision , why the apos●● there me●tions it , which mr marshall denied ; which reason is good , except it were true , that every meanes whereby we are compleat in christ , succeeds circumcision , the contrary whereof is confessed by mr marshall in acknowledging faith to bee one of the means whereby we are compleat in christ , which yet succeeds not circumcision : many more such mistakes in doctor homes , mr. geree , and mr marshall , i may hereafter shew ; i thought it best however god deale with me to cleare my selfe in this , and to take notice of this concession , which with others i may improve to overthrow all mr marshall's dispute . but it is arrogance to deny that which all reformed churches reach , that our baptisme succeede into the plane , roome , and use of the jewes circumcision . to this i answer : . i know not that all the reformed churches teach this , i remember not where this doctrine is determined in the church of 〈◊〉 publique doctrinals . . master gataker in his postcript to master wo●ns defence , saith thus , that justification 〈◊〉 remission of 〈◊〉 , for my part i deem erro●●us , and suppose that elsewhere i have evidently shewed 〈◊〉 so to be ; how be it calvin , b●●● , olev●● , 〈◊〉 , piscator , parens , ●●sculus , bullinger , fox , and divers 〈◊〉 of great 〈◊〉 , and name , yea whole synods of ours are 〈◊〉 so to say , and yet i never heard this charged for arrogancy on him . and for the assertions i impugne , that baptisme comes in the place , roome , and use of circumcision , and that this may be proved from colos . . , . though master marshall hold his rod over me , saying , i can hardly forbeare to tell you it is an argument of an arrogant spirit , i feare not yet to call them an iguis 〈…〉 of the way in this matter into begs . to conclude my answer to this charge of scoffing , i do the lesse marvaile that it is my lot to be thus charged , when mr geree in his vindiciae paedob●ptes●● , pag. , . cals one free speech very necessary of master ralph 〈◊〉 a man so approved , as by ordinance of parliament constituted master of a house in cambridge , a quipping 〈…〉 of a satyricall spirit against our reverend divines , 〈…〉 checked , abhorred , not countenanced . and i say further that if my memory do not deceive me , there are passages in 〈…〉 , that carry as much shew of irony as mine do , towards a man for age , and learning not inferiour to master marshall , and therefore i suppose my words , which are usuall among scholars , might have had a more favourable construction . i am bold to make use of master gatakers words to lucius , part. ult . sect. . pag , . stomach● nimium q●m indulget vir cl : superciliumq● nim is alte attollit , qi tam aegre fert placita su● citra uliam vel censoria magistralitatis , vel censurae magistralis volam aut vestigium eis formnlis qibus apud in scholis disceptantes nihil est vsitatius negari , idq : cum negationis rationes adiectas aut videt aut videre si velit qeat . neverthelesse i professe freely , that had i dreamed such expressions so usuall in scholastick disputes would have been so taken , i would for avoyding of offence have abstained from them . there is another charge against me that sticks deeper then the former , and it is this : master marshall in his sermon had mentioned the anabaptists as a dangerous and turbulen● sect , working a world of mischiefe about munster , and other parts of germany . this relation i conceived to be used , not only to magistrates to make them wary to prevent the like , b●t also in all sorts of auditories , with much ingemination to make the persons that question the baptizing of infants odious , and unsufferable in a christian commonwealth , and to stop mens eares against such evidence as may cleare the truth in this matter . to this therefore , as being an objection in the mouth of all sorts of men against the ant●paedobaptists , i thought it best to answer : . by granting much of the relation to be true , though perhaps vehemency of opposition ●ath made matters more , or worse then they were , as it is wont to be in such cases . to this master marshall saies , that he is confident i shew more good will to the anabaptists , then intend ill will against those worthy men who have written those stories . i do take with the right hand this charitable opinion in master marshall of my intentions , and i plainly reply , that the truth is , that i did use those words , neither out of partiall good will to the one , nor partiall ill will to the other , but out of a desire to remove that prejudice , which hindered men from examining the truth . as for the men i abhorre the wicked practises of the one , yea so much the more i abhorre he practises of them that would so solemnly by baptisme engage themselves to be christ disciples , and yet act such monstrous villanies , as having learned that the more profession a man makes of holinesse , the more accursed is his wickednesse ; and for the other , i beare as much good will to the memory of them , as if they had agreed with me in opinion . i hope i shall never make agreement with me in opinion , the reason or rule of my love , but relation to jesus christ , appearing in holinesse of life . master marshall saies , that the things are not to be questioned , and that he thinks that i am the first of our divines who have suspected them to overlash in their relations . to this i say , my words are plaine , that much of this is true i make no question , meaning the maine of the relations , that the men denied baptizing of infants , and that they brake out into such turbulent practises as are related of them . that which i added though perhaps vehemency of opposition hath made matters more , or worse then they were , as it is wont to be i● such cases , meaning this , of some particular circumstances in some persons , was not because i suspected the overlashing of the historians , as if they wanted fidelity , but because many things were brought to the publike knowledge by the bishop and canons of munster , their partisans who were papists , and would aggravate all things to the most to make the lutheran reformation become odious ; as studley did in the accident of euoch ap evan killing his mother and brother , or else by captives or desertors , who for favour or mercy would frame their tales , as they conceived might further their ends and because experience of the uncertainty of the manner of carrying things in our times , hath made me speake warily concerning things past . and to speake plainly , when i consider what hooker relates out of guy de bres of the seeming holinesse of the generality of them , their orthodox confession at first mentioned by master marshall from master dury his knowledge , the proceedings and parts of bernardus rotmannus and some others , the things mentioned by my examen , part , . sect. . the testimonies of gualter , and cassander , that the commotions in germany began from oppression in the state , that luther wrot to the germane princes against their opressions , the strange spirit of lutherans ever since , and the wofull tragedies of germany in this last age , i do count the story of the anabaptists to containe in it many things , the true reasons of which , and the true knowledge of the circumstances concerning them will not appeare till the day of the revelation of the righteous judgement of god. . i assigned some possible meanes of the turbulent carriages , and errours of the anabaptists , beside their opinion of antipaedobaptisme . to which master marshall saies , he can hardly guesse whether i int●●ded to excuse the anabaptists in part , or to blame the reformed churches for not hearing them , or to hint it as a warning to our selves . i answer , i did it to shew there might be other reasons of those tumults and divisions that the anabaptists fell into , then the opinion of antipaedobaptisme ; sundry of which , if not all i think happened in their case . master marshall saies , he never read that they sought reformation in a regular way , or were denied it , before they fell into those furies . how farre they sought it i cannot tell , it is plaine that carolostadius and pelargus and some say melancthon would have reformed it in saxony , had not luthers pertinacy in that as well as consubstantiation , and images withstood it ; and how baltazar huebmer sought it at zurich , and was denied , it , is known . i thinke the reformed churches have been to blame , and so may be our present reformers , that they have never yeelded to reforme it in a regular way ; and if anabaptists have never sought it afore me , it hath been it's likely , because they saw mens spirits so bent against them , that they thought it in vaine , yea they have beene rather forced to conceale themselves , it having beene accounted criminall , justly deserving excomunication , deprivation , and sometimes death , so much as to question it . and that the anabaptists have been so cast out and rendered odious as they have been hath been the reason why they have been forced to become a sect ( which i do not justifie ) and by reason thereof , factious spirits have joyned with them , and perverted them with other errours , which perhaps had not happened , had th●y been more tenderly and considerately handled at first . . i said , but have not the like ▪ of not the same things happened in other matters ? did not the like troubles happen in queen elizabeths daies in seeking to remove episcopacy and ●eremoni●s ? to this master marshall saith , the rest of that section , is to me extreamely scandalous , when i read your odious compar●●●●s between the non-conformists in queene elizabeths daies , and the anabaptists in germany ; it even grieves me to consider , whether affection to your cause doth carry you and master geree not only pag. . of his vina●●c●● paedobapt●smi , wonders at me that i should compare the troubles of the non-conformists , and the anabaptists , and marva●les such an uncharitable and unjust thought should arise in me , that divisions or other miscarriages of the non-conformists should bring them low in england : and beside all this , master geree publisheth a single sheet in print , and it came to my knowledge first by one that carried it about with other news books , and this paper he styles the character of an old pur●tan 〈◊〉 non-conformist , and in the end saith thus : r●ader s●ing a passage 〈◊〉 master tombes his book against p●dob ●pt●sme , where in he compares the non-conformists in england , to the anabaptists in germany , in regard of their miscarr●ages and ill successe in them endeavours till of late yeares , i was moved for the vind●cation of those faithfull , and reverend witnesses of christ ▪ to publish this character . in which mr geree plainly insinuates , that i acculed those faithfull witnesses of christ , whom he cals elsewhere the grave , godly , learned and unblameable non-conformists in england . i o answer this objection , i say that i never had a thought by those words did not divisions and other miscarriages and persecutions , bring the non-conformists of england as low as the anabaptists in germany ? to accuse those men he names of such miscarriages . i honour the memory of cartwright , brightman , hildersham parker , dod ▪ bradshaw , and the rest of the same stampe as godly , learned , unblameable and faithfull servants of christ . but i said some there were tha● in seeking to remove episcopacy and ceremonies did by their divisions , meaning those of browne ▪ barrow , and others , and other miscarriages , meaning of the writers of the books called martin m●rprelate , and the like , the miscarriages of hacket and his companions , the prelates taking hold thereof to accuse them as seditious ▪ and to incense the queen and state against them with per●ec●tion bring them as low as the anabaptists in germany . and i said that the like if not the same troubles happened here in england as in germany , meaning not in the degree , out in the kind , not in the fruit , but in the seed , which if the prudence of the state here had not timely prevented ( which could not be so well done in germany , by reason of so many petty free states ) might have broken out into as great a flame as those combustions in germany . in which my intent was not to discredit bullinger , sl●id●n , calvin , &c. no● to justifie in the least manner the anabaptists wicked practices , but only to shew that in seeking to reforme an abuse , there may happen such miscarriages ▪ and divisions , by the devils stirrring up some ●actious and by pocriticall spirits of those that joyne with the seekers of reformation , to breake out into hainous enormities of 〈◊〉 to stop mens mouthes from speaking for , and mens eares 〈◊〉 ●●aring of truth . and therefore all that love the truth , 〈◊〉 they have reason to suppresse those turbulent spirits , and 〈◊〉 heed of mens heady advises though for a good end , yet they should not yeeld to the devill so much as to permit him by the clamours against those factious spirits , to cheat them of the truth , or to make them lesse , but rather morezealous for it . and that this was my meaning , had my words been either well heeded , or candidly construed , might have been perceived by them . here i wish master geree to consider whether it were agreeable to that friendship he acknowledgeth to have been between us , without any violating of it on my part , to publish such an unjust charge against me , and so to lay more burdens on my backe , after i told him he had not dealt kindly nor rightly with me in his epistle dedicatory to a peere of the realme in aspersing me , whereby i might suffer much and never be heard speak for my self , & yet never once aske me though he had twice conference with me , once a little before his book was published , the other , the same day it was put forth , whom i meant in those passages . i may well take up that speech of absolom to hushai , is this thy kindnesse to thy friend ? now from that which hath been said , it will be easie to answer master marshal's quaeres . the anabaptists in germany rose up , and with fire ●nd sword pulled down magistracy , scholes , &c. did the like , if not the same things happen here ? t is true the bores 〈◊〉 countrey people over all germany did such things , and among them were those that they called anabaptists , but these things were done by others then anabaptists , and in some places where it doth not appeare to me that any such were : the cause of which was pr●tended the oppressions of the people by the princes , but in truth ▪ their desire to plunder , and spoyle . now though the seekers of the removall of episcopacy , and ceremonies did not the same things in degree , yet they did such seditious things as were of the same kind , and tended to them , as inciting against the magistrates ; such invectives against schooles , as had they not been withstood , might have produced the same effects , of which you may see passages out of barrow ▪ in master 〈…〉 , chap. ▪ and i pray god we never ▪ find by experience , that discontented i presbyterians can act the like things for their presbytery , that anabaptists did for their anabaptism ▪ mr marshall saith , what did the non-conformists ever endeavour to do beyond prayers and teares ? if m. marshall mean by non-conformists such as m. geree describes in his character , i have nothing to accuse them , but if he mean by non-conformists those that ●ought to remove episcopacy and ceremonies ( which was my phrase , knowing that in processe of time the terme non-conformists was contradistinguished to separat●sts ) some of them used railing against men in place & authority , witnesse the libels of martin marprelate , and such like in too great abundance , some of them , if cam●en relate true in his anuals of elizabeth ad annum . either conspired with , or some way animated hacket , upon conceite that he was an extraordinary person raised by god to bring in the discipline . master marshall saies what turbulent sect was ever among them , my words were , did not some of them that ●ought to remove episcopacy and ceremonies ▪ grow a dangerous and turloulent sect ? which words of mine are true in the followers of browne , barrow , &c. whom i thinke mr marshall will not deny to have been a dangerous and turbulent sect , and they were at first a part of them that sought to remove episcopacy and ceremonies . he askes , what were those divisions and miscarriages which brought them so low ? 〈◊〉 had said , did not divisions and other miscarriages and persecutions bring the non-conformists of england as l●w as the anabaptists ? the divisions i meant , were those that were between the separatists and other non-conformists , the miscarriages i meant , were those of martin marprelate , barrow , hacket , and others which did meite queene elizabeth and the s●ate against them , to arme the bishops with their power , by which they did persecute them . dr iohn burges rejoynder , chap. . sect. . pag. ● . ●or my part i thinke that the violence of some meaner ●en against those things , hath caused the sharper execution of lawes against some other men of worth . crudelem medicum intemperans ager facit . master marshall toucheth the story of hacke● and his companions and then saith : but what is this to your purpose 〈◊〉 had hacket to do with the non-conformists , who you know ( 〈◊〉 fever you read the story ) abominated him , and would have nothing to do with him 〈◊〉 before he 〈◊〉 into those p●ankes he plaid in london ? i answer , i have read the story of hacket in camdens annals of queen elizabeth ad annum . in saravia against beza de diver●●s ministrorum gradibus , in stow and howe , and i do not find by these that the seekers to remove e●iscopacy did abominate him as you say , but that wiggi●ton a minister , and others of that party did either conspire with him , or otherwise encourage him upon the hope they had , that by him the discipline should be p●omoted , and i find many practises like those of iohn of leyden at munster , as the pretending of revelations , affecting anointing as a king , commanding his prophets arthington and coppinger to go into the citty and preach , exciting the people against the archbishop and lord chancelour yea i find hacke●'s end to have been worse in a more horrible manner than that of ●ohn of leyden : nor do i doubt had london been in the same state as mu●ster was , but the tragedy would have been as bad in the seeking to remove episcopacy and ceremonies , as it was in seeking to remove paedobaptisme . and if the non-conformists did abominate hackes , so did the anabaptists that followed mennon , the munster , and batenburgick , furies . and as for the parallel i brought out of whitg●ft and hooker , i did it not to justifie their charges against the non-conformists , but to shew that they deprehended a likenesse of spirit & waies in some of the one , as well as the other . and my end in the whole was to shew , that in seeking to remove a reall errour , and abuse , fa●●ious persons may fall into such miscarriages , and yet their miscarriages ought not to hinder the reformation of the errour or abuse , though these things may well be urged for caveats to magistrates and people , to suppresse & take heed of the seditious practises of such agents : which warning being rightly taken , is good and necessary , yea perhaps more necessary for these times then i at first imagined , and so needs not a del●a ur , but a right construction . another charge master ley , and master marshall fasten upon me that i wrote my treatises as a braving goliah , so master ley , ub● supra : master marshall in his defence , pag. . and came into the field so bravingly and gyantlike . pag. . truly sir , thu smels a little too ranckely , thus confidently to challenge all men , not contented with goliah to say , give me a man that i may fight with him , but to defie a whole host , argues a little too much selfe confidence : to which i answer if master ley , or master marshall either had allowed me so charitable an opinion , as my forepast life and actions might have induced them to have of me , or heeded my words in the prologue and epilog●e in my examen , they would never have fastned this charge of a braving goliah , or c●●fident challenging or defying a whole host on me . ●or my bygone actions , they rather speake me a man willing to gratifie others , and to serve the common good , then to make estentation of my selfe out of selfe confidence . there are many that can make report of my labours in the places where god hath disposed of me , there are none that can give one instance , wherein i have put my selfe forward to shew my parts either in preaching the publike sermons in the university , or at pauls , or in great meetings in the countrey ▪ or before great men , or the parliament , or the armies , out what ever i have done upon any such occasions , necessity or conscience have induced me to it . and for my writings such as they are , setting aside the examen and exercitation , they carry their plea for them in their forehead . infirmities i have , and those many , but sure the whole course of my actions are a plea for me against this imputation of a braving , challenging , vaunting humour : yea did not the mindfulnesse of my account in god , love to the soules of men , and the discharge of my duty , lead me into publique actions , i should rather embrace that advise , be●● qui latuit , benè vixit . certainly in this businesse , i was so farre from the braving humour , that , as may be perceived by the relation above , necessity engaged me to it , not selfe confidence , and an humour of ostentation . the truth is , there were other arguments that i had entered upon , before i was engaged in this matter , as namely against the mortality of the soule , universall grace , the antinomian errours about justification , and justifying faith ▪ and some since , as about the matter and forme of a particular visible church , about the nature of schisme and heresie , in which i might safely have exercised such abilities as i have , if selfe ostentation had been my motive , and not have put my finger in this fire , durst i desert the truth . but how uncharitably mater ley , and master marshall do construe my action , i thinke it will presently appeare to him that shall read the prologue , and e●●logue of my examen , especially those speeches , wherein i declared my intentions to be either to rectifie master marshall , or to be ractified by him , that we might give one another the right hand of fellowship ▪ and i pray that the lord would vouchsafe to frame our spirits to seeke the truth in humility and love , which might have given them cause to have conceived otherwise of my disposition , then they have done , except they judged my speech hypocritical , which i am sure would have been beyond their line to do . in the epilog●e i tell master marshall , that i examined his sermon in the middest of many wants , distractions , discouragements , and temptations , which were indeed very many , so many that nothing but gods assistance , and the thought of my account to god could , as then the case was with me , have carried me thorough the worke . i said that i kn●w no reason , why master marshall should conceive , that i had taken the paines to examine his sermon for any ends crosse to the finding of truth , i tell him plainly , my reall mention in this worke is to discover truth , and to do what is m●et for me in my calling , towards the reformation of these churches , according to gods word , ●●ts which we have both bound our selves by solemne covenant . these words should have acquitted me from this charge of braving out of selfe confidence , if master marshall , or master ley knew nothing to the contrary , as i am sure they did not , and i thinke they have no prospective glasse to look into my brest . and for the words mr marshall saies , smell a●lutle too rankely of challenging and difying a whole host , had he considered or recited the whole period , and not cut off my words in the middest , he had seen that my words were not a braving challenge , but a fai●e and most reasonable motion , to have some one treatise framed by those that had appeared in publike , and whose writings or sermons , i had endeavoured to answer , that i might know what they would stand to , and save my selfe the labour and charge of buying and reading every indigested pamphlet : and after i made another motion , in case this was not liked , to have a meeting to consult about a way of brotherly and peaceable ventilating this point . the rejecting of both these motions by master marshall if they make him not inexcusable , yet i presume make my preceedings excusable , and his so p●lpable a misconstruction of my spirit in this matter , doth strongly argue that he looked on my writing with a ●loudshot eye , however he protest the contrary in his epistle dedicatory to the assembly . and i think he should not shoote very wide from the marke , that should imagine that these exceptions against the author , are for want of a cleare answer to the booke . there is yet another charge against me that flies higher , and comes ●earer to the matter , if it were true , and it is indeed ( though they do not call it so ) the deceit of sophistry in my writing , which if it were so , were a damnable sin to pervert the truth of god by such prophane handling . but let us consider what is said : master marshall pag. . of his defence , saith thus : wherein i shall not ( as you have done ) carpe at every phrase or expression ▪ nor digresse into imp●rtinent discourses , thereby to swell up a volume , nor amuse the reader with multitudes of quotations of latin and greeke authors , and then turne them into english ; nor frame as many sense of an expression as is possible , and then confute them , and so fight with men of straw , of mine own set●ing up : nor spend a whole sheet of paper together , in confuting what was never intended by my adversary , as the reader shall clearly perceive you have dealt with me . in answer hereto , i say : the first charge is so ranke , that unlesse he meane by carp●●g something else then i conceive , to wit a wanton , unnecessary , quarrelling , or excepting without cause , it is so palpable an untruth , that i wonder he would let it fall from his 〈…〉 he wrote at adventure . i do sometimes ( and yet not so frequently as there was occasion ) declare the ambig●ity and unfitnesse of some expressions ▪ but never without reason our of a carping humour ▪ much lesse carpe at every phrase or expression . and for the second , it is true ▪ i do make some digressions , and so did doctor 〈◊〉 white in his 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 church , doctor twiss● 〈…〉 arminiu● , but these digressions i am 〈◊〉 a reall 〈◊〉 pertinent , and necessary to a full discussion of the argument in hand , 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 a volume , but to cleare the 〈◊〉 ▪ the third ch●●ge is as va●●e , for the quotations are not multitudes , 〈◊〉 so many as that praise worthy writer master gat●●er 〈◊〉 of them 〈…〉 not for amusing the reader but for 〈…〉 speakes it of himselfe , and i there through mistake of memory put [ ar●es ] for [ orange ] a city neare it . and these i thanke doctor homes for advertising me of : and shall be willing to confesse any other oversights , that no reader may be deceived by me : though for the present i know no other . doctor homes names some other , yet i conceive wrongfully . as for the framing of as many senses of an expression as is possible , and then confuting them , this i thought had been a vertue in disputing to find out the many senses of an expression , and to confute them . i ever tooke this good arguing ▪ if the conclusion be true , then in this or that sense , but in none of all these it is true , ergo it is not true ▪ and that this had not been fighting with men of straw , but fighting with the strongest enemy that was in the field . the last charge is , that i spend a whole sheet of paper in confuting what was never intended by him : be it so ; yet if the reader were likely to take it so , it was fit it should be refuted , and himselfe blamed for speaking no plainer , but leading his reader and answerer out of the way , by the ambiguity of his expression . but to examine this charge more fully : he meanes i assure my selfe the refuting of this conclusion exam part. . sect. . from pag. . to . ( which comes short of a whole sheet ) that the cov●nant 〈◊〉 saving grace in christ . expressed in gen. . . in these words [ i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed ] is made to beleevers and their naturall ●eede . this saith master marshall pag. . of his defence was never asserted by him . for my part , though i conceived still that master marshall would never stand to this assertion , and i acknowledged in expresse termes , that sometimes ▪ master marshall spake mo●● warily , yet i gave many reasons why in his second conclusion his words were to be so taken , as if he had asserted that , which master marshall neither hath ▪ nor i thinke can clearly take off ▪ nor did i herein fasten any thing upon him against 〈…〉 as he 〈◊〉 to suspect , pag. . of his defence , and master geree pag. ▪ of his vindiciae paedobaptisms . for the passage be brings out of my book is not contradictory , s●th i might suppose he held not all the infants of beleevers to be actually ▪ regenerate , and yet might suppose he held that the covenant of saving gr●●● was made to them all , sith all the elect persons have the covenan● made to them as the apostle supposeth , rom. . . and yet are not actually regenerate . besides master marshall in his answer to the fourth and fifth objection , speakes as if he held the covenant of grace conditionall ▪ and so might hold that all the children of beleevers have the covenant of saving grace made to them conditionally , though not absolutely . i will adde what doctor homes pag. . . of his animadversions tels me . master t. kn●w learned master p. ( i thinke he meanes master william pemble of magdalen h●ll in oxford , a famous worthy writer , whose memory is very pretious to me , in whose time doctor homes , master geree and my selfe , lived together in that house to the benefit of us all ) who would say , can any meere man write much , and not in any thing contradict himselfe ? why then should it be thought strange that i should conceive master marshall would contradict that in one place , which he had avouched elsewhere , especially sith i find it frequent for protestant divines in this very thing , to unsay in dispute against arminians about perseverance , what they avow in dispute against anabaptists : sure i am master cottons words which i examine in a digression , meane plainly the covenant of saving grace , and therefore he interprets gen. . . of the covenant of saving grace , and master philips , that the covenant is made to them because offered , and master thomas goodwin in his lectures about infant-baptisme , meant it of the covenant of saving grace and therefore limited it so , as that for the most part election did run through the loynes of beleevers , and master herle at bow-church for master goodwin on heb. . . tooke upon him to refute anabaptists from thence , because the covenant there was made with the house of judah , and gal. . , the blessing of abraham was to come upon the gentiles ▪ and that was the covenant of saving grace . and for my part , i know not how to construe those words of the directory , that the promise is made to beleevers and their seed , any otherwise then of the promise of saving grace , which i conceived plaine by the expression following , make this baptisme to the infant a seale of adoption , remission of sins , regeneration and eternall life , and of all other promises of the covenant of grace . the directory doth in my apprehension plainly appoint the begging for the child the accomplishment of the promise before asserted to beleevers and their seed , and therefore as in the petition it is meant of saving graces , so in the assertion , or else the words are so ambiguous , as they may be a cothurnus , which were more fit for a canon of the coun●s of trent , then for the directory of a protestant church . besides the same promise is said to be made to beleevers seed , which is made to beleevers , but that they will not d●ny to to be meant of the promise of saving grace , therefore neither the other . to this master marshall pag. , . of his defence answers thus ▪ . he leaves out the words which were for my purpose [ and of all other promises of the covenant of grace ] which is not right dealing : . he makes me to conclude from that i cite out of the directory , that if there be not a promise of these saving graces to infants , in vaine are they baptized , and the seal ▪ is put to a blanke . and this consequence he denies , but saith nothing to that which was indeed my reason , which was this , master marshal's second conclusion is to be understood as the words in the directory , this master marshall grants , but the words of the directory speake of a promise of saving grace . this i prove , . because the same promise is said to be made to the beleevers seed , which is made to beleevers , for it were a strange equivocation to understand the same terme in the same proposition in two different senses , but the promise made to beleevers there meant , is the promise of saving grace , ergo so is the promise to their seed . . because the words speake of the same promise before , in the direction concerning doctrine , which they meane after in the direction for petition , else there would be a cathurnus , which were absurd , but in the petition they mean the promises of saving grace , therefore also in the doctrine . as for that which master marshall makes my conclusion from the words of the directory , that in vaine are they baptized , the seale is put to a blanke : it is no inference from the words of the directory , but comes in in another period , at least fourteene lines after , and among other reasons it is a medi●m to prove that the second conclusion must be so understood , because that is the plea they make for infant-baptisme , and therfore unlesse it be so understood , they must revoke that plea. m. g●ree pag. . ( if i understand him aright ) makes this the sense of the director● , the promise is made to beleevers and their seed , that is , it is to be presumed in charity of all the infants of beleevers , that they enjoy the inward graces of the promise till they discover the contrary . wherein , though he grant that which i contend for , that in the directory the promise is meant of saving grace , yet he hath invented another shift to save the credit of the assertion of master marshall and the directory , which he confesseth , if it be taken as i conceive it is , is so manifestly against protestant principles and experience that none can hold it . but who would ever construe those words , the promise is made to beleevers and their seed ; that is , it is to be presumed in charity of all the infams of beleevers , that they enjoy the inward graces of the promise , till they discover the contrary , but he that would make mens words like a nose of waxe , to turne them which way he is willing they should be taken ? would any man construe the words [ 〈…〉 to beleevers ] any otherwise then thus , the promise of saving grace is made by god to beleevers ? and must the same phrase in the same proposition in the other part be construed thus [ the promise is made to the seed of beleevers ] that is , it is to be presumed by men in charity till they discover the contrary , that all the infants of beleevers have the inward graces of the covenant . as if the making of a covenant were all one with a charitable presumption , or the seed of beleevers were all one with infants , or when they are adulti they are not their seed . the apostle rom. . , , . when he expounded the promise , gen. . . of the spirituall , not the naturall seed , did not imagine , that the making the promise was mans act of presumption , but gods act , and acts . . ( to which and gen. . . it's likely the directory alludes ) the promise ▪ as master marshall expounds it , is of christ and his saving benefits , and the making of it is meant of gods act , not mans presumption . adde hereunto that the whole series of the direction in the directory carries the meaning thus . for having said , that baptisme is a seale of the covenant of grace , of our ingrafting into christ , and of our union with him , of remission of sins , regeneration , adoption , and life eternall , it followes after , that the ●eed and posterity of the faithfull borne within the church , have by their birth interest in the covenant , and right to the seale of it , and to the outward priviledges of the church , &c. where the directory makes a threefold interest : first interest in the covenant . secondly , right to the seale of it . thirdly , right to the outward priviledges of the church , the covenant , seale , and outward priviledges of the church are put as distinct things , and the covenant they have interest in , is the same covenant of which baptisme is a seale , as is plaine by the pronoune [ it ] which imports the same thing : now baptisme is before said to be the seale of the covenant of saving graces , therefore the covenant that the seed of beleevers have interest in by their birth according to the directory , is the covenant of saving graces . which sith master marshall dares not assert , and mr geree saith is manifestly against protestant principles , i wish it were as it ought to be laid to heart , and that the assembly would remember that which they say pag . of the answer to the remonstrance of the seven dissenting brethren . and it was further declared , that even in those things which the assembly had voted , and transmitted to both houses of parliament ; yet we did not so leane to our own understandings , nor so prize our v●tes ; but that if these brethren should hold forth such light unto us as might convince us of an errour : we should not only desire the parliament to give us leave to revise our votes , but to revoke them , if there should be caus● . which would indeed bring much honour to the assembly , and knit the hearts of the godly to them : whereas through their silence at this time , this and some other things in the directory about baptism passing uncorrected , & standing confirmed by law , great disquiet to the church of god , and the undoing or molesting of many godly persons , may follow when they cannot yeeld without sin to the doctrine and practise of baptisme as it is there set downe . this by the way . but mr. marshalls tells me pag. ● . of his defence , you cannot be ignorant how our divines owne the outward administration of the covenant under the notion of foedus externum and the spirituall grace of it under the notion of foedus internum : and that still i restraine the covenant to the spirituall part onely ; and would perswade my reader , that they who speake of the covenant of grace , must meane it thus strictly ; and yet i bring not arguments to disprove a true visible membership upon a visible profession , whether the inward saving grace be known or not . to this i answer . i confesse i have met with that distinction of foedus externum & internum , in some protestant writers , but not meeting with it in mr marshals sermon , i had no occasion in my e●a●en to meddle with it but now i will declare my thoughts of it . i confesse that circumcision is called the covenant , gen. ● ▪ by a me●onymy of the thing signified for the signe , as the text it selfe expounds it ; and i confesse that the apostle rom. . . distinguisheth of circumcision outward in the flesh , and circumcision of the heart : but no where in scripture doe i meet with the distinction of the outward and inward covenant , nor doe i conceive the expression right . for if the distinction be only distinctio nominis , it should be thus , covenant is taken either properly or improperly by a trope , and not covenant is either outward or inward , if the distinction be distinctio rei : then there is some common notion of a covenant thus distributed , and so the sense must be ; some covenants , that is , promises ( for the nature of a covenant is a mutuall or single promise ) are either externall or internall , and this may be understood either in respect of the making of the promise , and so it is not right for all promises in that sense are externall , none internall for afore it be declared by some transeunt act it is not a promise , but an intention or else it may be understood in respect of the thing promised , and it is confessed that god promiseth inward , and outward good things , and if this were the meaning i should not much except against it , though i should like it better to expresse it thus . the things covenanted are outward or inward , which is plain and easie to be understood , then to say , the covenant is outward , or inward . but mr marshall by the outward covenant means the outward administration of it , and by the inward covenant the spirituall grace of it . according to which explication the distinction is not agreeable to logick rules , nor can stand mr marshall in any stead , but to convince him of trifling and equivocating in his first argument , and two first conclusions . trifling i say in his first argument . for the first argument was this . the infants of beleeving parents are foederati , therefore they must be signati . now mr marshall will not have the antecedent understood of the inward covenant , that is the spirituall grace ; he blames me for that , and he himselfe rejects it in that sense ; then the sense must be , the infants of beleeving parents are foederat● , that is in the outward covenant of grace , that is according to mr marshall in the outward administration of the covenant . now what is the outward administration he expresseth pag. . of his sermon , calling baptisme the new administration , and circumcision the old . this then is mr marshals argument . the infants of beleevers are in the outward covenant , that is , in the outward administration , meaning baptisme or circumcision ; this is the antecedent , the consequent or conclusion is , therefore they must be signati ; that is , baptized or circumcised . but is not this a meer inept tautology ; all one as to prove they must bebaptized , because they must be baptized ; all one as to argue , he must have ensem , because he must have gladium ; this is pauls epistle , because this is pauls letter . i said equivocating . for by the covenant mr marshall makes shew of one thing in the first conclusion , but meanes another in the second . for he had said conclusion the first , the covenant of grace for substance hath been alwayes the same , and pag. . he shewes wherein lies the substance of it ; to wit , the spirituall part ; now who would not have expected that the second conclusion should be meant of the same covenant to wit the inward ; sith he sayes , pag. . the proving the two first conclusions gains the whole cause , if the covenant be the same , and children belong to it , then they are to be owned as covenanters ? yea , and his first text to prove the second conclusion , acts . . he himselfe expounds it of christ and saving benefits by him . but it seems mr marshal's heart failes him , he found that assertion too hot for him , though that be the ordinary assertion , in the directory , in books and sermons , insomuch that it is an usuall expression to say infants are confederates with their beleeving parents in the covenant of grace ; and therefore now , the second conclusion , that the children of beleevers belong to the covenant of grace , must be understood in another sense then as the covenant of grace is taken in the first conclusion , which is to equivocate . yea further by reading mr marshalls defence , pag. . and elsewhere i suspect there is a farther equivocation in mr marshalls argument , which mr marshall it seems doth not perceive , divers expressions being by him taken as the same , which are not the same ; nor to be confounded . for , pag. . mr marshall speaks thus ; i concluded therefore that by gods own will , such as enter into covenant ought to receive the seale , which seems to be the proposition by which the sequele of mr marshalls first argument is to be proved , so that he seems to frame the syllogisme entirely thus . they that enter into covenant ought to receive the seale , but the children of beleevers enter into covenant , therefore they ought to receive the seale ; so that the minor seems to him to be all one with this proposition : the children are foederati , which is elsewhere expounded of the outward covenant , or the right to be baptized , but to have right to be baptized , is not all one with entring into covenant . entring into covenant is some act farther then having of right ; for a person may have right to baptism before he enters into covenant . mr marshall should have heedfully distinguished the covenant of grace , which is gods act in his promise of grace ; and belongs to none but those he hath made that promise to , and the outward administration , which is the administratours act ; and not have called it the covenant , and the entring into covenant with god , which is the act of the baptized , and cannot be done ordinarily by an infant , who is onely passive , and makes no promise at baptisme ; and therefore cannot be rightly said to enter into covenant with god. the want of such distinctnesse in expression serves for no other purpose but to puzzle a reader , and the very truth is , the argument which mr marshall , mr geree , doctor homes , &c. bring from the covenant to the seale for the baptizing infants , if it be well sifted , is either a tautology , or an equivocation ; as i may more abundantly shew , if ever i have liberty to examine their intangled discour●es . now from hence he may know the reason why i still rest●aine the covenant to the spirituall part only , which is , because i love to speake plainly without equivocation , and as the scripture doth , and why i would perswade the reader , that they who speake of the covenant of grace must meant it thus strictly , because i would have it thought they do not equivocate , but speake plainly . and for bringing arguments to disprove a true visible membership upon a visible profession , whether the inward grace be known or not , i marvell master marshall should expect this of me , who never denied a true visible membership upon a visible profession , whether the inward grace be known or not , but in expresse termes granted it ; and therefore master marshall doth untruely charge me , when he saies pag. . this mistake runs through your whole booke , that none are to be repu●●● to have a visible right to the covenant of grace , but only such as partake of the saving graces of it . and yet mr marshall acknowledgeth pag. ● . of his defence the contrary , when he saith , to all this you assent , and consequently that there is nothing needfull according to the word , but a visible right . but master marshall addes ; and then what will become of all your pleading , that because we cannot know that all infants of beleevers have the inward grace , we may not therefore baptize them . this master marshall makes all my pleading , but master marshall neither doth nor can shew that this is all or any part of my pleading . master marshall pag. . hath these words : and as for that you adde , that baptisme is to be administred , not to them who may have grace , but to them who have it . then it seemes they are all wrongly baptized who have not inward grace . but how doth this follow from my words , with any shew of right deduction ? that because i say , it is not enough that baptism be administred to persons , in that they may have grace , but it is to be administred to them that have it , that therefore it seemes they are all wrongly baptized who have not inward grace , unlesse my speech had been , that it is to be administred to none but them that have it , which cannot be drawne from my words , till it be proved that every affirmative proposition is exclusive , which true logick will disclaime . he that saith , a coate is not a mans because he may buy it , but because he hath bought it ▪ doth not affirme that he only hath a coate by right that hath bought it , for he may have right to it another way , viz. by legacy my pleading is , because we have no command , we cannot baptize infants without will-worship according to ordinary rule , sith the command is only to baptize disciples , or such as professe faith . i grant that if any be a reall actuall beleever that cannot speake , yet if he professe the faith by other signes , or god do reveale it for him he may be baptized by the force of philips rule , acts . and peters speech , acts . but he that saith , reall actuall beleevers may be baptized , doth not thereby affirme that they only are to bee baptized . a proprio primo modo ad proprium secundo modo non valet argumentum . all crowes are black , therefore only crowes are black , is no good argument . master marshall tels me pag . that he is confident , that i who durst baptize an infant known to be regenerate , durst not give the other sacrament to it ; because more is required to make them capable of that sacrament , then is required to make them capable of baptisme : a regenerate infant i thin● is capable of thus : but besides regeneration , he is sure i will grant , that an examination of a m●ns selfe , and an ability to discerne the lords body , is required to 〈…〉 capable of that . to put him out of doubt , i say ; upon the same supposition that god should regenerate , and make an infant an actuall believer i should as soone give the lords supper as baptisme to it , as conceiving that the same actuall faith that makes capable of the one makes capable of the other , and the same supernaturall extraordinary power that begets actuall faith can beget selfe examination and discerning the lords body . and thus i have answered that accusation of spending a whole sheet of paper together in confuting what was never intended by my adversary , and have retorted this point of sophistry as more justly chargeable on himselfe . but mr marshall hath yet more of sophistry to charge me with , and thus he speakes pag. . of his defence . but first give me leave to observe your destructive artifice . it is the socinians way to clude all texts of scripture , which are urged against them , if they have been differently expounded by learned and godly men , ancient or moderne : to question all conclusions infer'd by consequence from scriptu●e : to deride the testimonies of any of the ancients by discovering the nakednesse , errour , and oversight of those reverend men : and by making themselves merry by turning the orations , epistles , or allusions of the fathers into syllogismes , and by inserting of ergo now and then , to make all their rhetoricall passages seeme ridiculous . i appeal to the judicious reader , whither this plot be not carried through your examen and exercitation . it is a very sad thing that brethren should thus yeeld either to their passion , or zeale of god but not according to knowledge ▪ so as to paint out their opponents in as ougly a forme as they can without cause . mr marshall appeales to the judisious reader , and i am very willing to accept of the appeale , provided that under the terme , judicious reader , he do not meane one that is resolved to gainsay whatsoever is contrary to the streame of other reformed churches ▪ or the present synod , or that may endanger his present station , or carried away with prejudice , and passion . he desires le●ve to observe my destructive artifice . if he meane my skill to overthrow his arguments i confesse it , it was my businesse , if he meanes something else when he names it he may have an answer . he tels me what the socinians way is , and would have it thought that is my way . for the socinians way , i have read mr cheyuels discourse , but remember not that their way is described as mr marshall sets it downe . i have read very little either in socinus , or any socin●●n . in that which i have read i confesse i finde much shifting and impudence in eluding the scriptures urged against them , christ●●nus bermanus ex●rcit . theolog . . hath collected examples hereof . i finde that they make little account of the testimonies of the ancients , since the first nicene council in the point of christs deity , yet they alleage those afore the nicene council in that point , and sometimes others of the ancients . but it is more easy for mr marshall to affirme then to prove any such so●man plot in my examen or exercitation , though mr marshall could not but know , that an adversary could hardly shew more malice , and do more mischiefe to a man then by bringing him into suspicion as if he were of a socinian spirit . he saies , it is the socinian way to ●lude all texts of scripture which are urged against them if they have been differently expounded by learned and godly men , ancient or modern . the truth is , though socinians do use this art , yet their proper devise is , so farre as i have observed , to elude by new interpretations of their owne . but what one text have i eluded in an , such manner ? if there be any , it is either cor. . . or coloss . ▪ , . i or the first , though it is true i alleage eleven authors expounding as i do , and might make a further addition , and there was great reason i should do it , because of the prejudice that was against my interpretation , yet that was not it which i rested upon , but the analysis of the words , which being rightly stated , i found upon reason , to which neither mr marshall nor mr geree have yet answered , that the sense i gave must needs be right . and it was confessed to me by a learned man of the assembly , that he thought matrimonial holines was not all that was meant there , yet that i had sufficiently overthrowne that of federal holines ▪ mr marshall though he have altered my method and forme in clearing that text , and so obscured my elucidations of it , yet could finde eight arguments there against his opinion . and for the other text it hath been shewed before that mr marshall confesseth my sense to be his sense . the truth is , my expositions of texts are in most of them so 〈◊〉 that mr marshal himselfe doth grant them , though he differ from me in the inferences from them . he saies further , it is the socinians way to question all conclusions inf●rred by consequence from scripture . this is the first time that ever i heard them to be charged with this ▪ but rather finde them by mr cheynel and others charged with assenting to nothing but what they could conceive rationall . i remember docter chalo●er in his credo ecclesiam catholicam mentions this as the artifice of the jesuites in france to stop the mouthes of protestants by rejecting consequences , and requiring expresse texts , which being invented by veron ▪ was called methodus v●roniana , the vanity of which is refuted by vedelins in a treatise of his . i remember i saw a printed paper taken as it is sayd from the mouth of captaine paul hobson against infant baptisme , wherein was somewhat spoken against consequences , which i disclaime . yea , i expresly say pag. . of my ex●men , but i grant , that if you make it good , by good consequence , you may recover all . i confesse i do reject the consequence drawne from the command of circumcision to baptisme by reason of analogy , and all such anologies as being vaine yet too much postering 〈◊〉 , and former writings and sermons . it is the speech of mr rutherf●rd , due right of presbyteries , ch. . sect . . pag. . proportions are weake probations . but it is an overlashing to purpose in mr marshal to say , that i carry this socinian plot through my examen and exercitation to question all conclusions infer'd by consequence from scripture . though mr marshal in this matter appeares not to be the man i tooke him to be , yet i hope he is not come to calumn●are ●●d●cter . i presume the judicious reader will judge , that mr marshal is bound to give me satisfaction for wronging my credit , of which he should be more tender , by so deep , & yet so palpable a false accusation . mr marshal makes this the socinian way to deride the testimonies of the ancients . of what they do i can say little . but i challenge mr marshall to give one instance wherein i make my selfe meerly by turning the orations , epistles , or allusions of the fathers into syllogismes , and by inferting of ergo now and then to make all their rhet●ricall passages seem ridiculous . as for derid●●g the testimonies of any of the ancients by discovering the ●akednesse , &c. i do it no otherwise then the most approved protestant writers rivet , perkins , cooke , jannes , century-writers ▪ chamire , jewel , reynolds , &c. yea and many of the papists themselves , sixtus s●●●sis , bellarmine , &c. who usually disclaime some writings of the ancients as spurious , and many speeches of the most approved as absurd and erroneous : yea , mr marshall himselfe in the points of infant communion , rebaptization , necessity of baptisme and communion in his defence , derides cyprian and augustine as much as i doe in my examen in the point of infant-baptisme . mr marshall sayes my ma●ne faculty lies in the anascenasticall part , but that i bring not satisfying arguments to settle men in that i would have . but mr marshall might remember my businesse in my exercitation , and examen is to discover the nullity of the pleas that are made for infant-baptisme , in which if i had done no more but overthrowne the proofes that are brought out of scripture , it had been enough . whereas i have further shewed upon erroneous grounds it was taught of old , and what abuses haue followed it : which surely smect●mnuus , and dawlphintramis in their pleading against ep●sc●pacy and liturgy thought sufficient ; however in this point mr marshall censures my exercitation and examen as insufficient . when smectymnuus had disputed down episcopacy and liturgy , they conceived they had done their part , though they referred it to the synod to consult how to setle church government and worship . and why should not my disputing be thought edifying to the church of god by overthrowing an errour and abuse , which will in time be found worse then episcopacy and liturgy , though i take not upon me to direct how baptisme is to be reduced to the right way , neverthelesse when i am duly required to declare my opinion either about the nullity of poedobaptisme as it is used , or the way of reducing baptisme to its right use , whether according to conscience or prudence which i doubt not but may be done in time without necessity of separation , turning seekers , or popular tumult , though for the present generation by reason of preingage-ments , mens spirits are very averse from it , ) i shall be willing to doe it , as being resolved ; notwithstanding the unkind usage i have found , yet to remember my covenant and account to god. and as i have not hitherto , so neither i hope in god ever shall foster any crypticall divinity , of which i need be ashamed to bring it into light , or which should justly cause men to be jealous of me as a dangerous person likely to trouble the church , though unbrother-like mr marshall pag. . endeavours to represent me as if i were one that had need to be watched . he talkes not in a letter to me in private , but in print , of my high and scornfull spirit , but how justly may appeare by this apology . he tells me , i magisterially tread down under foot the arguments and reasons which others conceive strong . but it will be hard for mr marshall to shew where i tread down any thing magisterially , that is without cogent reasons ; and such , as were it not for his mistakes of my reasons , he himselfe would be forced to subscribe to them . as for questioning so boldly some doctrines which have never been q●●stioned before , i suppose he meanes it of that which i said pag. . of my examen about rebaptization , which master marshall saies doth clearly discover my itch after new opinions , pag. . of his defence , and that which i say pag . of my examen , concerning the question , whether an unbaptized person may in no case ea●● the lords supper , this master marshall pag. . of his defence , numbers amongst my freakes and out-leapes , and saies is a spice of my itch after singular opinions . but master marshall might have observed , that in the former , i gave the reason of what i said , because it goes so curr●n , that rebaptization is not only an errour , but also an heresie ; plainly shewing there was a necessity that cryed out against the anabaptists as heretikes , to bring a demonstrative reason to prove it unlawfull to baptize againe him that had been rightly baptized . for i presume , hat as king iames censured cardinall peron for making a kind of problematicall martyrs , calling them martyres that dyed in maintenance of a point not certain whether it were de ●ide , so it is as absurd for our preachers to make problematicall hereticks , by declaiming and exciting the magistrate against those as hereticks , of whom it is uncertaine whether they hold an errour or no. as for master marshals reasons , they are not convincing to me , nor is the holding rebaptization such a new opinion as he would make it . and for the other it is no out-leape , but a question that lay in my way by reason of master marshals words , and exceeding necessary to be resolved , considering that otherwise those ministers and people that cannot agree about the validity of infant-baptisme , or adult-baptisme , supposed not to be rightly done , for want of a right ministery , or power to give the spirit , or the manner of it's administration , must of necessity separate from communion in the lords supper for this reason , because none is to be admitted to the lords supper till he be rightly baptized : which i professe is to be stood upon in point of prudence for right order ; yet if it be stood upon in point of conscience , so as in no case the contrary is to be permitted , it will of necessity make many superstitious perplexities in ministers , and inferre many an unnecessary schisme , this being not a sufficient reason for a refusall of communion , because a godly person takes his baptisme to be right , though i know the contrary . nor do i thinke the thing either such a new opinion or practise . for besides , that it may be doubted whether all the apostles were baptized , as suppose matthew ( which is as probable for the negative as the affirmative ) yet were admitted to the lords supper by christ himselfe : when constantine the great and others did differre their baptisme so long , it is not likely they never received the lords supper afore their baptisme . nor is it inconsistent with my grants : for what though i grant that baptisme is the way and manner of solemne admission into the church , meaning the regular way , yet it followes not that none may receive in any case afore baptized . mr marshall holds ordinatination by a presbytery is the regular way of solemne admission into the office of publike preaching , and it may be fit by an ecclesiasticall canon to order it so ; yet i thinke it will not be denied , but that there may be cases , wherein a person may lawfully be a publike preacher without such ordination . the other grant which master marshall saies is mine , was never expressed by me so rawly as he laies it downe . it is not as he puts it downe , that nothing is to be doue about the sacraments , whereof we have not either institution or example : but as master marshall might have perceived if he had heeded my words , examen , pag. . pag. . pag. . that no positive worship , or essentiall , or substantiall part of it , is to be done without institution by precept , or apostolicall example , i never denied , that many things pertaining to circumstance and order may be done about the sacraments without either , and of this kind i conceive baptizing afore eating the lords supper to be . as for itch after new opinions , why are not doctor twisse , and master gataker , and indeed all that cleere truth more fully then others , censured in the like manner ? i wish if my words would take any impression on him , that master marshall would forbeare thus judging least he be judged . i thinke i know my selfe better then master marshall , and i told him , my reall intention was to discover truth , yea all my wayes shew me free from this itch after new opinions , though i professe my selfe an impartiall searcher of truth , ●●llius addictū jurare in verba ●agistri , no not to the determinations of the assembly . may it not with better reason be said , they have an itch after new opinions , who hold that without power to suspend all scandalous persons from the lords supper , a man cannot with a good conscience be a pastour , that without this power the church of christ is to be suspended from the lords supper many yeares , &c. and for fleighting of authors , i have answered it already . there is yet another charge , as if i should alleadge authors against their mind . as first master daniel rogers . i said master daniel rogers in his treatise of the sacrament of baptisme , part. . pag. . confessed himselfe unconvinced by demonstration of scripture for it . master marshall writes to master daniel rogers , he answers in these words : if i were to answer that anabaptist , i should answer 〈◊〉 silen●io , & contemptu : for why should i not ? since in that very place of my sacrament , part. . pag. . . where i confute thos● schosmaticks , he 〈◊〉 my words from their own defence : my words are , i confesse my self unconvinced by any demonstration of scripture for ●●●dabaptisme , meaning by any positive text ; what is that to helpe him ? except i thought there were no other arguments to ●vince it : now what i thinke of that , my next words shew , pag. . line , , , . i need 〈◊〉 transcribe them . in a word , this i say , though i know 〈◊〉 , yet that is no argument for the non-baptizing of infants , since so many scriptures are sufficiently convincing for it . therefore this want of a 〈◊〉 text must no more exclude infants , &c. then the like reason should disa●ull a christian sabbath , or women kind not to be partakers of the supper : the quoting of mine owne text were enough . i will set down his words as i find them , that the reader may judge whether there be truth in it , that i have snatched his word● from their own defence , and whether he did not oppose demonstration of scripture to ●●●ritt●n tradition . the words are thus : i say this for the setling of such as are not wilful , that 〈◊〉 take the baptism of infants to be one of the most reverend , generall and uncontrouled traditions which the church ha●h , and which i would no losse doubt of then the creed to be apostolicall . and although i confesse my selfe yet unconvinced by demonstration of scripture for it , yet first sithence circumcision was applied to the infants the eighth day in the old testament : secondly there is no words in the new testament to infringe the liberty of the church in it , nor speciall reason why we should bereave her of it . thirdly , sundry scriptures affoord some friendly proofes by consequent of it . fourthly , the holinesse of the child ( externall and visible ) is from their parents , who are ( or ought to be ) chatechised confessors , penitents , and protestants in truth ( which priviledge only open revolt disables them from ) therefore i say , the seed being holy , and belonging to the covenant , the lord graciously admits them also to the seale of it in baptisme . if master marshall please he may write backe to his reverend and learned friend , that the supposed anabaptist thinks his plaister too narrow for the sore , that he seems to eate his own words , that his words help me to shew that he once thought it indeed one of the most reverend , generall , and uncontroled traditions which the church hath , and which he would no lesse doubt of , then the creed to be apostolicall , which if he meane it of the creed called the apostles as it is now , parker in his booke de descensu ad inferos , and others have shewed to have been made long after the apostles dayes , and the tale of their meeting to compose it , in the exposition on the creed , attributed to ruffinus , or some other to be of no credit . and for scripture , master rogers findes but friendly proofes , somewhat like bellarm●nes pie & probabiliter credi potest , and that there is no word in the new testament to infringe the liberty of the church in it : which if master rogers can satisfie himself with , he may , i professe i dare not so play with my own conscience , and i thought this was fit to be told master marshall , to shew that i was not the only man that questioned , whether his proofes for infant-baptisme were so undeniable as he would have them ; and that 's enough to shew the unreasonablenes of the violence of his spirit against those that differ from him . and for his quaere why he should not answer me , silentio & contemptu : i presume master marshall hath long since done that office of a friend to tell him it is written rom. . . why doest thou set at at naught thy brother ? i had said not as mr marshall repeats it , master ba●l cuts the sinewes of the argument from circumcision , but , me thinkes mr balls words cut the sinewes of that argument . and so they do plainly . for if however circumcision and baptisme agree or differ wee must looke to the institution , and the agreement is not enough to conclude , that baptisme belongs onely to members in church-covenant , and their children , because it was so in circumcision without an institution , as the new england elders reason , by the same reason however baptisme and circumcision agree or differ : yet baptisme will not belong to infants , because circumcision did so by vertue of proportion , without an institution , which if mr ball or mr marshall could shew , they needed not trouble us with the command about circumcision of male infants , to prove infant-baptisme , which is indeed to maintain that the ceremoniall saw still binds , which is plain judaisme . but what sayes mr marshall to this ? if mr marshall cut the sinewes of the argument from circumcision to baptisme , himselfe was very much mistaken in his his own meaning and intention , because in the same place he makes them parallell in this , and i might have done well to have informed the reader so much . i was told , there was a very intelligent man that said he was sorry that i had mr marshall for my antagonist , as knowing him to be apt to mistake , which he conceived would be a vexation to me , and indeed i find his words true . for whereas i said only mr ball 's words , cut the sinewes of that argument ; m. mar. mistakes it as if i had said , mr ball intends to cut the sinews of that argument , and that then he was mistaken in his own meaning and intentions . i confesse it were a very strange thing to charge so understanding a man as mr ball with such a mistake of his owne meaning and intention : but it is no such strange thing for a learned man to speak that which may be brought to inferre the contrary to that he intended , and if this be to abuse men , then all arguments by retortion are abuses . bellarmin l. de justificatione c. prop. . had said , propter incertitudinem propria justitiae & periculum inanis gloriae tutissimum est totam fiduciam in sola dei misericordiae & benignitate repouere . this king james in his apologie for the oath of allegiance brings to prove that he overthrowes thereby all his former dispute about inherent righteousnesse , though bellarmine had put in a speciall caution in the next words to prevent that inference , and king james left out that caution in the recitall , yet bishop andrewes in his torturae torti , and many other learned men justified king james , and that rightly . mr marshall , pag , . saith thus . and i am sure you must agree with me . sixthly , that of all these testimonies you have cited out of chamier , there is not one word against my interpretation , or for the justification of yours ; yea and i kn●w also that you will agree with me seventhly that the learned chamier in a large dispute doth confute your interpretation and vindicate my interpretation , as the onely true and proper meaning of this text even in that very pla●e , where you quote him . and therefore i know the reader will agree with mee ( whether you doe cr●● ) that you doe but abuse your authour and reader both , in making a flourish with chamiers name nothing to the purpose , and thereby would m●ke the reader to conceive chamier to be of your side , when he is point-blanke against you . and in the same page . first you severall times 〈◊〉 the learned beza as if he were of your m●nd in the interpretation of this text , to construe it of matrimoniall holinesse . i confesse the cause depends not upon beza's judgement , but your reputation depends much upon ●●king this good , that you should dare to 〈◊〉 authour as interpreting it for you , who interprets it exprofesso against you . p. . i perswade my self you are by this time ashamed of your impertinent quotation , i assure my selfe if you be not , your friends are p. . but sir why do you thus frequently abuse your readers with the names of learned men , inserting some one sentence of theirs into your booke , and thereby insinuating to your reader , th● they are of your opinion in the point wherein you cite them ? i assure you , it concernes your conscience as well as your cause , to be thus often taken tardy . mr geree vindic . poedobaptism . pag. . which you expresse in beza's words , but against beza's mind . pag. . and therefore i wonder you should so of 〈◊〉 alle●ge an author impertinently especially such an one as is punctually and 〈◊〉 against you . to all this i answer . if mr marshall could have shewed that i had either falsified the words or wrested their meaning , he had said something : but to tell me , because i alleage the words of authors according to their meaning , to prove the contrary to that they ho●d , therefore i ab●●se them ; and inf●● 〈◊〉 ●o the reader that they art of my mind , or side , when they are point blanke against me , or that my allegation is ●●pertinent 〈…〉 is so frivolous a charge , that it deserves no other answer , then mr. 〈◊〉 own words out of horace , pag. . 〈…〉 ashamed of my impertinent quotation● , it is because mr marshall and mr geree have misrepresented them , otherwise those my quotations are every one of them pertinent to the particular point i alleage them for , and not yet answered by mr geree or mr marshall . and i confesse i cannot but smile at mr marshalls conceit of me , when he sayes . and i am sure you must agree with me . sixthly , that 〈◊〉 all these testimonies you have cited out of chamier , there is not one word against my interpretation or for the justification of yours ; as if i were another claudi● to subscribe to my own condemnation : which if i doe in this thing , he may well beg me for a foole . it is untruly ascribed to me that i cite beza , as if he were of my mind in the interpretation of cor. . . to construe it of matrimoniall holinesse . for whereas i did distinctly explain first the term sanctified in the forepart of the verse & then the terms unclean & holy in the later ( which m. marshall confounding in his defence ; & to putting all my arguments together to the number of eight , as he multiplies them , & not sorting them as i did , hath made his answers colourable , but indeed misleads the unwary reader ) and though i knew beza to disagree from me in expounding the term [ holy ] which i had expressely set down , pag. . of my exercitation ; and therefore never intended to abuse the reader , or to insinuate that he was of my side , in the expounding the latter part of the verse , yet he expounds the first part with me of matrimoniall sanctification , and so i said , pag. , of my examen , not that beza did construe it of matrimoniall holines , but matrimoniall sanctification ; which i should wonder mr marshall did not consider being so plainly and necessarily distinguished by me , but that distemper of body or mind , or hast to prevent the studying of my book by crying it down ( the like whereto may be said of doctor homes and mr geree ) made him compose his answer a●ore hee had well studied my book . as for chamier i did , pag. ● . expressely say his opinion was for federall holinesse . do federal● illa sanctitate quid decom●verit 〈◊〉 mentem chemiro calvino , &c. and yet i need not be ashamed to bring his own words against his own tenet , no more then king james to bring bellarmines words against him , or bishop morton to bring the bapists words against them , or mr marshall himselfe to bring my words against me , but rather indeed it is most commendable to bring an authors words to refute his own opinion as being a most cogent and pertinent way of disputing . and for aretius pag. . of my examen , i used this very expression [ sayes rightly in this ] intimating that though he agree with m. marshall in his inference from col. . . . yet those words which i cited , and that rightly , served to overthrow mr marshall's reason , from whence their inference is gathered . and therefore it concernes mr marshall's conscience as well as his cause to be thus often taken tardy in false accusations , & insinuations against me . as for that he tells me of aretius his opinion there and elsewhere , it is indeed a meer impertinency ; sith i never denied aretius to be of his opinion , and therefore if i may use his own phrase , pag. . he doth but bumbast his booke to no purpose . and here i cannot but take notice , that whereas master marshall had charged in the first use of his sermon the anabaptists with a rash and bloudy sentence condemning all the infants of the whole church of christ , as having nothing to doe with the covenant of grace or the seale of it , and then aggravates it as like hazaels act , i said , pag. . of my examen , till you produce some testimonies of those you call anabaptists so determining , i shall take it to be but a false accusation , and a fruit of passion , not of holy zeale . mr marshall both pag. . and pag. . of his defence , saith thus . i compared not their intentions with his , but the fruits of their principles casting all beleevers children , as much out of the covenant of grace as they doe the children of turks and pagans ; and this i am sure they doe , and your selfe joyne with them who acknowledge no more promise for the children of beleevers , then for the child●en of the turkes , and leave them to have their actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the devill . in this reply mr marshall brings no testimony out of the anabaptists writings to prove them guilty of that rash , and bloody sentence he doth in expresse termes charge them with ; suppose mr marshall should be able ( which i am assured he cannot do ) to prove by consequence that by their principles , they condemne all the infants of the whole church of christ , as having nothing to doe with the covenant of grace , or the seale of it ( which were the words of his sermon pag. . though in his defence he alter the words to mince the matter ) yet davenan●● exhorts to brotherly communion , ch. . gataker vindication against walker , and many other cry out against it as most unreasonable to accuse men of that sentence which themselves disclaime , because it followes from their principles by remote consequence , much more in downright termes to say , they passe a bloody sentence , and condemn all the infants of beleevers . if it should follow from their principles , yet m. marshall were not acquitted from rashnes , false accusation and passion in those his speeches . i have proved from mr marshall's principle , pag. . of his sermon that all gods commands and institutions about the sacraments of the jewes bind us as well as they did them in all things which belong to the substance of the covenant , and were not accident all to them , that it inferres an obligation to all the mosaicall ceremonies , and consequently judaisme ; yet mr marshall would not think it equall i should charge him with judaisme , and then make a declamation against him as turned jew , and preaching judaisme , and to be abandoned by christians as going about to make them jewes . why then doth mr marshall deale so with others ? i know mr. marshall pag. . of his defence , endeavours to justifie his principle : he tells me , that his meaning never was to assert the practise of the rituall part in the least particle , but that there is a generall nature , end and use in which they are agree ; which is to answer just nothing . for the question was concerning the commands of the jewes whither they bind , and particularly whither the command of circumcising infants bind us virtually ; now all the commands are about the practise of the rituals , and if they bind they are still in force : the generall nature is conteined in the definition , which is aeternae v●ritatis , and expressed in an enunciation , and is not commanded but declared , and so is the generall end and use to be known and beleeved , not to be practised : but commands are orationes non enunciativ● , never of the generall nature , but of particular acts . who did ever talke of a command that a man should be animal rationale , or of a sacrament that it should be a seale of the covenant ? . mr. marshall tells us he did not compare the anabaptists and hazaels intentions , but the fruit of their principles . the truth is , mr marshall did not compare their intentions , nor the fruit of their principles , with hazaels act ; but their bloud● sentence with his act . as for ●●sting out of the covenant of grace , indeed and before god , no promise or errour of ours can doe it , were our intentions never so malicious , the malice of men cannot nullifie the faith of god. as for casting out in their sentence , i conceive it suspends any judgement of them ; we can neither say they are in or out : yea , i say again if all be examined , mr marshall puts them as much out as we , unlesse mr marshall understand no more by the covenant of grace then baptisme , which though mr marshall may doe in a popular auditory , which cannot discern between chalke and cheese , yet me thinks he should forbeare to doe it in print , in a treatise dedicated to the assembly of divines . but i wonder the lesse at mr marshalls rashnesse in accusing the anabaptists , when he is not ashamed to tell me thus , pag. of his defence . it is your judgement that all infants , even of beleevers as well as pagans , though they may potentially belong to the kingdome of christ , yet actually they belong to the kingdome of the devill ; which i am sure he no where findes in my writings , but to the contrary in divers passages , as exercit . pag. . but saith mr marshall , you acknowledge no more promise for the children of beleevers , then for the children of turks . this matter i had disputed at large , part . . § . of my examen , and to mitigate the odium which popular preachers cast on us by this allegation i had said , so doth the opinion of cyprian with his bishops that would have gods grace denied to none : and therefore his opinion puts all the infants of beleevers in the same condition with turks children . to this saith mr marshal pag. . of his def●●ce , which i have shewed , will not follow out of the words of the epistle . now that i conceive he means he had formerly shewed is pag. in these words , though he layes it downe in generall termes that none are to be hindred from comming to christ : yet what he sayes ought to be understood of the church , because he speakes of such as god hath cleansed or purified , who were common : which passage i should sooner have expected from a jesuit then mr marshal , to say that cyprian ought to be understood of the church , when the words nulli hominum nato misericordiam dei & gratium denegandam , & nulla anima perdenda est ; are as expresse as may be , that he means it of any that are born of mankind , that the grace of god is not to be denied them . and after , omnem omnino hominem ad 〈◊〉 christi admittendum esse , and the reason he useth is not from a cleansing proper to the church , but because all men are equall , quando 〈◊〉 deo semel facti saint , as he that reades the epistle , will presently perceive i alleaged also the words of the grave confutation of the brownists published by mr rathband , to shew not that which mr marshall it seems intended , which was to charge all the anabaptists of putting all the children of beleevers out of the covenant of grace as the turks children , but to shew that the opinion of paedobaptisme as some assert it , doth put all the infants of beleeve●s into the selfe-same condition with the infants of turkes and indians ( which were mr marshal●s words ) by putting all of them alike into the covenant of grace . for if they may be lawfully accounted within gods covenant , if any of their ancestours in any generation were faithfull , and that because of gods promise ; exod. . . then the children of turks are lawfully accounted within the covenant , yea all the infants in the world , for it is not beyond the thousandth generation to noah . mr marshal tells me that hee supposeth i do not think those words , exod . . were intended to intimate that all the children in the world ; who came from ad●m 〈◊〉 noa● were intended in the covenant of grace , nor that i beleeve mr rathband thought so . what mr rath . thought i know not but his words import so much , and if that was not intended , the text was impertinently alleaged ; and though it is true i do not think with them , yet i might 〈◊〉 alleage their words which i approve not , to shew this is no such 〈◊〉 , which mr marshall called 〈◊〉 great mischiefe , that by the anti-p●dobaptists opinion , all the children of beleevers should be put into the some condition with the children of tarkes ; sith the same followes on the 〈…〉 doctrine also . i had also examen , part . . § . . set down my opinion freely in propositions about the parity of condition of the turks and our infants , and told mr marshall thus possibly if you open your selfe plainly , there will be no difference between us . mr marshal in his defence neither plainly opens himselfe , wherein he puts the difference , nor sets down my answer justly , but leaves out wholly the the fourth proposition , or confounds it with the third ; and other wise mangles and alters my words in his abridgement , that they are much unlike what i delivered . for instance , pag. he sets down this for my second proposition . that i know no more promise for beleevers children , then for the children of 〈…〉 whereas my words 〈◊〉 the●e . for the covenant or promise of grace , that is righteousnesse and life as christ , though i acknowledge a peculiar promise to abrahams naturall posterity mentioned , rom. . . yet i know not that god hath made such a covenant to any , much lesse to all the naturall beleeving seed of any beleeving gentile ; and propos . . i say , they have some promises , though generall indefinite and conditionall . and i mean by generall and indefinite , such as determine not the kind of good promised , nor the particular person ; and therefore are true , if performed to any persons in any sort of good . and conditionall upon condition of faith and obedience , as , when it is said the generation of the righteous shall be blessed , his righteousnesse to childrens children , to such as keep his covenant . ps . . . . ps . . . &c. i tell mr marshall if he can shew any more promises then i doe , i shall count them a treasure , if not , why doth he endeavour to make me and my opinion odious to the people , as if i put all the children of the whole church out of the covenant of grace , as i doe the children of the turkes ; and acknowledge no more promise for the one , then for the other : whereas when he hath said as much as he can for them , he can bring no more promise for them then i doe , nor dares reject the limitations i restraine them by ? but sayes mr marshall , you leave them to have their actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the devill . i ask whither the children have actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the devill afore they are baptized or not ? if he say they have not , then by not baptizing , i leave them not in the visible kingdome of the devill , they are out of the visible kingdome of the devill , though they be not baptized : if he say they have their actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the devill afore they are baptized , then how is it true which the protestants disputing against bellarmin alleage against the necessity of baptizing infants to salvation , that the children of beleevers are holy afore baptisme . the truth is , i neither leave infants in the devills , nor gods visible kingdome : for i conceive they are in neither kingdom visibly till they declare by their profession to whom they belong visibly . mr marshall used often this expression of belonging to the visible kingdom of the devill , and i told him examen pag. . i feared he did it ad faciendum populum , to move the people , by affrighting them by a bug-beare word , if they keep their children from baptisme , then they leave them to have an actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the devill , or to please them by making them beleeve that by baptisme their children are put out of the visible kingdome of the devill . this i said not judging his heart , but being jealous least it was so ; and i confesse i am still suspicious he doth so , because he still useth it after he hath been told it , and it is a meer engine to stirre popular affections . for how hath the unbaptized infant an actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the devill ; unlesse it be true that all unbaptized persons have an actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the devill , which is false in the catechumeni of old , the converted theefe on the crosse , constantine the great , and many others who were in the visible kingdom of the christ afore they were baptized . on the other side , thousands of people in america baptized by the spaniards , had as visible standing in the devills kingdome as before . i confesse when the baptized professeth the faith of christ , then baptisme is a note of a visible member , and a distinguishing badge between the people of god and the devill , and so by baptisme a person is exhibited a member of the church , but otherwise i see no reason why an infant that makes no profession of christ , should be counted after baptisme a visible member of the church more then before . let a child of a christian be baptized , and after being an infant , and taken by a turke , be circumcised , wherein is that child more a visible member of the church of christ then a turkes child , or is hee not rather a member of the church of mahomet , then of christ ? are the janizaries any whit the more christians because they were baptized infants of christian greekes ? protestant writers are wont to define the visible church of christians a number of persons that professe the faith of christ . so art. of the church of england , and all sorts of protestant writers . now that which makes the visible church , makes each member a visible member , and that is profession . baptisme and the lords supper ; and hearing , are notes as they signify profession , otherwise if a person be baptized , if he should heare or receive the lords supper , and did not professe the faith , he should not be a visible member for all that . i confesse i have met with some writings which put baptisme into the definition of the church , as necessary to the being of a visible church , and the words in the confession of faith of the churches of anabaptists about london [ being baptized into that faith ] artic. . are somewhat doubtfull , though they seem rather to import that baptisme is necessary to the right order of a christian church , then to the being of a church ; and i confesse they that hold that members are added to the church by baptisme and not otherwise , and hold a nullity of paedo baptisme , must needs say the churches that have no other then infant-baptisme , are no true churches ; nor their members church-members , as master ma●shall sayes pag. . of his defence ; and so voluntary separation necessary . but these points of the necessity of right baptisme , not onely to the right order , but also to the being of a visible church and church-member , and so voluntary separation barely for the defect of it , i have ever disclaimed ; as considering the many errours and ill consequences that would follow thereupon , and though provocations still increase , yet i have in my practise shunned separation from my disenting brethren , and i presume though mr marshall count right baptisme a necessary duty , yet he will be more advised then to make it essentiall , either constitutivè or consecutivè to the being of a church or christian either visible or invisible , for feare of giving too much advantage to separatists , and seekers . i suppose in reference to the present point this is the truth , that however every infant is either in the invisible kingdome of god or satan , that is , elect or reprobate ; yet no child till hee make profession doth visibly belong either to the one , or to the other . i acknowledge that in the visible church of the jewes , the infants were reckoned to the church , and the reason was from the peculiar church-state of the jewes . for then god took the whole family of abraham together in one day , and after the whole nation of the jewes , were but one church or congregation : acts . . and accordingly appointed one tabernacle and altar , and one high priest , and solemne feasts for all to meet as and one nation all ●●adge , circumcision ; and hee erected them into one policy , because he would have one fixed people among , and 〈◊〉 whom the massiah should come ; and therefo●● he so provided , that their tribes should be distinguished , their inheritance divided , and many 〈…〉 which he did not either then 〈◊〉 appoint to any other people . and this church-state circumcision was applyed to , so that if master marshall and master geree will conclude from rom. . . &c. that we must have our children baptized , because they had theirs circumcised we being ingraffed into their room , they must not only prove that the gentile-beleevers are grafted into the invisible church in place of the jewes ( which is the apostles sense there notwithstanding , that which m. geree , or master marshall have said ) nor that the gentile visible churches are graffed into the visible church in the place of the jewes : but they must also prove that the gentiles are taken into the same outward church state which the jewes ●ad . but that is most false . for now god gathers not a whole nation together , nor hath appointed one temple altar , priest , &c. as he did to the jews : but he gathers now by preaching , some here , some there , and the visible church hath now no such policy or outward government as the jewes had then : and therefore there is not the same reason of infants belonging to the visible church of the gentiles as they did to the jewes , except one can prove that we are to have the same outward face and constitution of the church which they had , which papists and others imagining have corrupted the church , and baptizing of infants ariseth out of the same jewish conceit . master marshall had alleaged in his sermon rom. . . &c. to prove his second conclusion . i complained in my examen of the obscurity of his inference , shewed him how ambiguous his words were . he takes this as if it were done in scorne , and as an artifice to darken an argument , but doth not mend the matter in his defence . for . pag. . whereas i distinguished of graffing in , that it may be either by faith , or profession of faith ; or by some outward ordinance : master marshall in the repetition leaves out this last member , which is not right dealing . . whereas i had said ; the thing that is to be proved is , that all the infants of every beleever are in the covenant of free grace in christ , and by veriue thereof to be baptised . master marshall pag. . of his d●fence denies this , though it seemed plaine to me , that this text was brought to prove his second conclusion , which i took to bee the same with the antecedent of his enthymeme , or first argument ; and that i did conceive had this sense , that all the infants of every beleever are in the covenant of free grace in christ , otherwise his first argument is but nugatory , the antecedent and conclusion being the same ; and he equivocates in his two first conclusions , understanding the first conclusion of the covenant of saving grace in christ , the other of the outward covenant as hee calls it , as i shewed above : which serves for no better end then to delude a reader . but pag. . he saith thus ; the thing to be proved from this text is , that our infants have the same right which the infants of the jewes had , pag. the thing to be proved was , our infants have the same priviledge with theirs ; yet in the same page he thus formeth the conclusion , and therefore we and they making up the same body are taken in upon the same ground , our children with us , as well as theirs with them : which last conclusion i do not take to be the same with the former , nor any one of them the same , with the other or with the antecedent of mr mar. second argument , or his second conclusion , . it is yet uncertain to me what is the medium he would prove his conclusion by out of that text . in his defence in three places he calls his confused heap of dictates his argument to wit , pag. . the apostles scope was to shew that we gentiles have now the same graffing into the true olive which the jewes formerly had ; and our present graffing in is answerable to their present casting out , and their taking in at the latter end of the world , shall be the same graffing [ though more gloriously ] as ours is now ; and it is apparent that at their first taking in , they and their children were taken in , at their casting out they and their children were broken off ; and when they shall be taken in againe at the end of the world , they and their children shall be taken in together , and all by vertue of the covenant , ero deus tuus , &c. which is the same to us , and to them ; we and they making up the church of god. in the same page in these words . looke how the jewes children were graffed in , so are our children , we are taken instead of them who were cast out , and becom on visible kingdom of christ with the rest of them who kept their station , pag. . we as they , were tak●n in ; they and their children shall be at the last taken in again , as they were at the first : and therefore we and they making up the same body are taken in upon the same ground , our children with us as well as theirs with them . which though hee calls his argument , and sayes it hath a plaine sense , yet i see so many ambiguities still in his words , his speeches so informe or shapelesse , that i know not well whither he would make many syllogismes or one , nor which to call the major , which the minor proposition or terme , or which the medium ; and i must professe i find mr marshall still so confused a disputer , that i know not to what purpose his manner of writing in this point should tend , but to puzzle his reader , and weary his respondent . and sith he was told of this , p. . of my examen , and desired to mend it in his next writing ; yet instead of mending it , he puts it off lightly , pag. . of his defence , a person may suspect it is done on purpose to puzzle , rather then to satisfy . for why should a man that would clear truth in a point of dispute , though in a sermon ad populum ; especially when his auditory is such as it was at westminster abby , be unwilling to make a syllogisme in mood and figure ? did not master marshall make sundry syllogismes in the same sermon ? and would not a short syllogisme after a distinct short paraphrase , have better cleared the truth then such a confused heap of words he useth in his alleaging , rom. . . &c. and acts . . however what reason or excuse he can pretend for not doing it in his defence , i see not . mr geree in his vindiciae paedo-baptismi , ch . . sect . . goes somewhat more distinctly to work , yet neither doth he frame a syllogisme from rom. . . . . . &c. nor doe i know how he would have it framed . he saith , the conclusion to be proved is , that the ch●ldren of christians have the same priviledge with children of jewes , as they were comprehended so under the covenant with their parents as to be reputed members of the same visible kingdome , and to be sealed with them . this conclusion i deny if it be understood of the outward priviledge belonging to the jewish church in that state it was afore christs comming . to prove it he layes down four proprositions , and deduceth four con●ectaries , but how he shews not . the third is ambiguous , and if he mean by [ into the place of the iewes cut off ] the same church-state , and by [ partaking of their priviledge● ] the priviledges belonging to their church - 〈◊〉 as i think he doth , it is to denied , and so likewise his second and third consectary in that sense . nor doth either rom. . . prove it as shall be presently shewed , nor is a beleeving jew a looser by the coming of christ in regard of his seed , sith this was a peculiar priviledge in the time of that church state , which now ceaseth to be a priviledge , christ being come ; as in like manner the temple , high priest , &c. doe , which i have more largely discussed examen , part . . § . . and for the fourth consectary , if it be understood of pristine church-state , i likewise deny it . i grant the promise will bee extended to them and their seed , but how ? not by an outward ordinance or initiall scale , as it is called , applyed to infants , but by the communicating the spirit and word of god to them and their seed ; as the text he alleageth imports , isai . . . nor by holding that neither jewes nor gentiles now are to have their infants sealed wil follow , that there will be two distinctestates in the christian churches : one of the jews holy fathers and children , another of the gentiles who have only personall priviledges , none for their seed ; for neither doth baptisme belong to the one or the other , because they the are seed of beleevers : and for regeneration and saving benefits , the lord bestowes to the seed of either as pleaseth him . nor would this conceit of mine set up or keep up a partition wall still contrary to the apostle , ephes . . . for then a partition wall is kept up when the gentiles as gentiles are excluded from accesse to god which is not done by my doctrine , they that hold that the command about circumcision still binds virtually , come nearer to the setting up a partition wall in the apostles ser se . i return to mr marshall . mr marshall in his sermon as i conceived made this the thing he would prove , that we and our children are graffed in together ; this i granted in some sense to be true , that god doth usually call and adopt the children with the fathers , but i denyed it to be so perpetually ; so as that a rule for an outward ordinance may be flamed thence . and so farre as i can collect the chiefe medium master marshall and master geree take hence to prove it is ▪ that we gentiles have the same ingrassing into the true olive which the jewes formerly had . this master marshall made the apostles scope , though the truth is it is so farre from being the apostles scope , that it agrees not with his words , who makes the ancient jewes naturall branches , not ingraffed , and the scope of the apostle is otherwise , as hath been shewed : examen , pag. . but the thie●e difference is about the ingraffing what that is , as i had said . the ingraffing to me is meant of the invisible church by election and faith . to this master marshall pag. . sayes , i reply , if it be meant of the invisible church onely and that all who are ingraffed in the apostles sense whether jews or gentiles are only elect ones , i will promise you never to plead this scripture more for any inf●nts ; and after if you please let us try it out . i agree to this motion , and determine that the graffing in rom. . . &c. is meant of the ingraffing into the invisible church by election and giving faith , with this caution ; that i doe not deny that the same people might or were ingraffed into the visible church by profession of faith , and baptisme ; but hold that this ingraffing is more then that which is into the visible church by outward profession and ordinances . to prove my determination , i thus argue . . that ingraffing which is gods act by his sole power , is into the invisible church by election and giving faith . for graffing into the invisible church is as mr marshall saith , pag. . admission into visible membership , which if it be by an outward ordinance , is the easie act of the administratour ; if by profession of faith , the easie act of the professour . but the ingraffing meant rom. . is gods act from his sole power , as is proved from verse . where the reason is rendred why the jewes should be again grassed in , is , because god is able to graffe them in again ; ergo , the graffing here is into the invisible church . . that ingraffing which is called reconciliation opposite to casting away , that is by election and giving faith ; for no other acts can reconcile : but the ingraffing here is called reconciliation opposite to casting away v. . as may appeare in that v. . is a reason of the clause about the reception of the jewes , v. . and the verse , is an admonition from the supposition , v. . that the jewes were cast away : which is called breaking off , v. . now if breaking off , v. . be the same with casting away , v. . then ingraffing is the same with reconciliation ; erg● , ingraffing is by election and giving of faith . . the ingraffing must bee meant of that act whereby the branch stand in the tree as a branch this will none deny , it being the very terminus of ingraffing , as hea● the terminus of calefaction . but that is by giving faith . ergo , the minor is proved from v. . where it is said , by ●mbeleefe they were broken off but thou standest by faith , whence i argue . that act whereby the branch stands in the tree as a branch , must be the giving that meanes whereby the branch thus stands , but that is faith , v. . erg● , the act of ingraffing is by giving of faith . . that ingraffing is meant v. . whereby the wild olive is copartaker of the root and fatnesse of the olive tree , as is asserted there . but such is only election and giving of faith . ergo , the minor i prove by considering who the root is , and what the fatnesse of the olive tree is . . negatively , the root is not as master marshall and master blake , every beleeving pa●ent . for then all the branches should be naturall ; the child of every beleeving parent is a naturall branch from his father : but here the apostle makes the gentiles branches and a wild olive graffed in besides nature , and the jewes only naturall branches growing from the root , v. . . nor is it of any moment which is objected , that other parents are called roots as jesse , isai . . . for here only the root notes such a father as is holy and from whom the branches are holy ; which agrees not to every beleeving father . . positively . the root is no other then abraham . i said twice in my examen , pag. . . abraham only is a holy root , or at most abraham isaac and iacob ; which i said only by concession : that if it were so , yet every godly parent was not a holy root , and therefore it served my turn there , if it were so . this mr marshall pag. . calls ; saying , and unsaying . but mr marshall might have considered that i did in that addition only mention the judgement of others , and not contradicted it there where it was not against my purpose if it were granted ; but otherwise , where i expresse my owne judgement , i mention only abraham as the root , exercit. pag. . examen , pag. , . and soe doe deodate annot . on v. ▪ . the new annot. on v. . beza on v. . neque dubium est , quin radicis nomine intelligatur , abraham credentium pater . which contains the reason of this opinion . for he must be the root who is a father both to jewes and gentiles , who are also branches in this root , the root is said to beare them , v. . but we read not this of any other then of abraham called the father of the faithfull , rom. . . and the gentile beleevers his seed , rom. . . . gal. . . no where are these things said of isaac , and iacob . it is said indeed that the jewes are beloved , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for the fathers either because of the covenant made with them , or because of the favour god bare them ; as often he is said to reserve a lamp in judah for davids sake , but this speech hath speciall respect to the jewes , whereas the benefit of the root , v. . . is common to gentiles and jews . as for the fatnes of the olive tree deodate saith truly , it is the blessing and promise made to abraham & his seed & so the apostle expres●eth it , gal. . . and it would be too frigid , and washy an exposition to expound it of outward priviledges , & ordinances . yea it were false , for the gentiles were not partaker of the outward priviledges and ordinances of abraham and the jewes they being taken away . now these things being put it must needs be , that this ingraffing must be by giving faith sith by faith only the gentiles are partakers of the root abraham , and the fatnesse of the olive tree the beleeving church , not by naturall generation of beleeving parents , nor by outward administrations . ergo , the ingraffing here into the invisible church is by election and giving of faith . . from verse . if the breaking off the jewes be by blinding , then the ingraffing is by giving faith , but the former is true , verse . ergo , the latter . . if reingraffing of the jewes produceth salvation , is by turning them from iniquity , taking away their sins according to gods covenant , then it is into the invisible church by giving faith , but the former is true , verse , . ergo , the latter . . if the reingraffing be by vertue of gods election and love , his gifts of calling then it is into the invisible church by election and giving faith , but the former is true v. , . ergo , the latter . . if the ingraffing both of jewes and gentiles be the fruit of gods mercy , the breaking off by shutting up in unbeleefe , then the ingraffing is into the invisible church by election and giving faith , but the former is true , verse , , . ergo , the latter . what should i say more ? it is so plaine from the whole scope and tenour of the apostles words , that the ingraffing there spoken of is into the invisible church by election and giving faith , that from the first verse of the chapter to verse . there is scarce a verse but speaks of ●●jecting ▪ foreknowing , election , grace , hardning , giving a spirit of slumber , d●●kning the eyes , stumbling , falling or some equipollent terme to these , and the apostle doth plainly signify his intention in all that discourse to be the shewing the mystery of gods counsell in elcting , reprobating , blinding , converting one while the jewes , another while the gentiles ; so that i cannot but admire , that mr marshall should interpret the ingraffing of bare admission into visible church-membership . . adde hereto . the places which i conceive answer to rom. . . must be understood of the invisible church as eph. . . cor. , . gal. . . . . . lastly for testimonies of interpreters i find but two in marlorats cathol . exposition on rom. . . and they have these words . hyperius . neque enim hic amplius docet , sed orationem totam ad gentes convertens sapienter monet , ne propter electionem suam efferantur , aut judaeos quia rejecti sunt contemnant : maxime quum & judaeorum plurimi salutem sint adhuc per evangelium conseq●uturi , gentes verò iterum possent , si deo ita visum foret reprobari . bucer insitus fuisti illis ] hoc beneficium est quod gen●ibus per iudaeos contigit . gentes enim per fidem christi factae sunt semen abrahae gal. . . ergo , insitae iudaeis , ut grati sanctis patribus promissa , & fruantur , & spiritu illorum vivant : id quod apostolus per communionem radicis & pinguedinis significat ▪ ut namque filii dei omnes eadem dei benevolentia nituntur , ita eorum spiritu aguntur , etiamsi hic donetur grandior post revelatum christum . hic verò ex praecipuis locis est ex quibus probatur eodem spiritu verae justitiae donatos fuisse iudaeos ante incarnatum christum . calvin ad vers . . nam erectio iud●orum , si ob incredulitatem facta est , gentium insitio per fidem , quid restat nisi ut dei gratiam recognoscendo inde ad modestiam ac submissi●uem formentur . and this i thought so plain , that i conceived mr marshall himselfe so expounded it in his sermon pag. . in these words . it being the primary intention of the covenant of grace , in it's first work , to shew what free grace can and will doe to miserable nothing , to cut miserable man of from the wild olive , and graffe him into the true olive , to take away the heart of stone , to create in them a heart of flesh , &c. which thing hee saith nothing to in his defence , though i alleaged it pag. . of my examen , except it be that he meant the words he useth pag. of his defence ▪ alleaging that i say , insition ( not inc●●on as it is printed in mr marshalls defence ) may be either into the visible or invisible church , grassing in , may be either by faith or by profession of faith , and therefore i say the same with him , should be to tell me that he can bring as much from my words for him as i bring from his words for me , which conceit is but vain ; for my words are nothing but the opening the distinction of the various kind of ingraffing ; no assertion in those words what insition is meant , rom. . . and for the words mr marshall alleageth out of my examen , pag. . of which he saith . and truly sir , in these words to my understanding , you grant not only my interpretation of this place , but even the question controverted betwixt us . i shall shew to be a mistake in answering his objection against the interpretation i give of the ingraffing into the invisible church , having first observed that master gerees words in his vindic . paedob●aptsmi confirme my interpretation against his owne in the chapter next before , when he saith , chap. . sect. . pag. . the holines there is meant not actuall holinesse , but potentiall in regard of gods election . and mr blake , pag. . we by faith are graffed in for them , rom. . the onely objection of waight is , that then some branches of the invisible church may be broken off , and so election made revocable , and apos●asy from grace maintained : and hereupon mr marshall accuseth me as symbolizing with arminius , and puts this in the margine of his book , pag. . and in the index : and thereby thinks to cut scores with me for accusing him as symbolizing with arminius , pag. . of my examen . to which i answer . . that there is a wide difference between mr ma●shals case and mine . i shew that mr marshals tenet agrees with arminius his tenet , and i quote arminius his words in the margine ; and therein i did justly . for arminius also understood his speech of outward administrations , to wit the preaching of the gospell , in the end of his anti-perkins , and both mr marshall and arminius agree , that the infants of the wicked for these outward dispensations are comprehended in their parents according to the tenour of gods justice . but i expressely rejected the tenet of arminius about revocable election , and apostasy from grace ; which if they should follow from my interpretation , i conceiving otherwise , yet were not i to be charged with symbolizing with arminius , as mr marshall doth in his professed tenet . but i conceived i had prevented this objection , pag. . of my examen , at those words . the meaning is not that some of the bra●ches in the invisible church may be broken off , but only such as were so in appearance ; and i alleaged iohn . . as an instance of the like expression : shewing in that very similitude , that the word branch in christ is sometimes meant of that which is so in appearance , & sometimes of that which is so in truth ; and so in like manner it may be used , rom. . . and thus chamier , ●om . . paustrat . cathol . l. . c. . answers bellarmin ; urging iohn . . . for falling away from faith . but mr marshall tells me , i professe i understand not how this distinction gives you the least help . i reply , that it plainly avoyds the consequence objected against my interpretation ; for though the branches in one passage be meant of the branches in appearance , and the breaking off that which was so in appearance , yet , other places , as in the same verse in the ingraffing may be meant of true ingraffing into the invisible church in like manner , as it is iohn . . but because upon more accurate examination i conceive that is not the genuine answer , i shall therefore let it passe . . i say , when the apostle saith the branches were broken off , he meanes it of the branches that were truly such , and of the ingraffing that was truly such into the invisible church , but that by the branches are not meant singular persons ; but the people , or as m. mar. speaks p. . the body of them were the branches spoken of ●n this place , & m geree p. . nor is it either the arminians tenet , or any errour to say that the body of a people which were once the elect people of god , and ingraffed into the invisible church , because the generality or a greater number were such among that people , are broken off from election , and the invisible church . for a people or nation is not a consistent being , but a fluent being as a river , which is the same river still , though not the same water ; and therefore as when cyrus turned euphrates from it's own channell , hee may bee said to have turned away the same river euphrates that was created at first though it were not the same numericall water ; so when god rejected the jews from being his elect , beleeving people he broke off the same people that were the true branches of abraham the true root in the invisible church , and yet no one particular person , who was elect or in the invi●●ble church by faith broken off , which is the arminian doctrine . and this i find observed by each of the three authours alleaged before from marlorat . hyperius at v. ● . is thus alleaged ; speaking . quemadmodum nunc rejectus est populus iudaicus , qui tamen electus fuerat : ita potest adhuc fieri , ut a●●quando rejiciatur populus gentilis , qui nunc electus est ; alioqu singul●s electos de populo iudaico , vel de populo gentili reprobari impossibile planè est . ad hunc ( inquam ) modum si quicquid de ruina metuenda electis sequitur , non de singulis electis , sed de populo ex quo descendunt interpreteris , multis te molest●is liberaveris . calvin ad verse . praecipuè verò notandum pauli sermonem non tam ad singulos homines , quàm ad totum gentium corpus dirigi . bucer ad verse . de gentibus loquitur universim non de singulis hominbus . and indeed the text leads me to this interpretation . for when it is said , verse , . that they shall be graffed in , god is able to graffe them in again ; these which are according to nature ; shall be graffed in their own olive ; which cannot be understood of the same person , but of the same people . thus have i besides my first purpose put into this apology this large dissertation about rom. . , . &c. partly because by mr gerees conference with me and another , and his words to me ; ●indic . paedobap . pag. . i commend this scripture to your serious consideration , for i conceive it gives clear evidence to what i affirm ; i perceive this text is his chiefe hold for infant-baptism , and in mr blakes new answer to my examen , pag. . i find these words ; your examination , rom. . . hath been under examination , and if there be strength in those exceptions , there is weaknesse no where . mr blake in his answer to my letter , pag. . saith thus . if the ingraffing bee by saving faith onely , to derive saving grace personally inherent as a fruit of election from abraham ; then it must be that we are elect in abraham , abraham may say without me yee can doe nothing , &c. i answer , if i made abraham a root as communicating faith by infusion , or impetration mediatory as christ , this would follow ; but i make abraham onely a root as he is called the father of all them that beleeve , rom. . . not by begetting faith in them , but as an exemplary cause of beleeving , as i gather from the expression . verse . that he is a ●ather to them that walk in the steps of our father abraham , which he had yet being uncircumcised . mr blake ibid. pag. . what made abraham , isaac and jacob roots ( as in nature , so holy roots ) but the covenant ? and was not the covenant made as well with david , as with abraham , isaac , and jacob. i answer , i make abraham onely the root , as hee is only the father of beleeevers exemplarily , and that which made him the father of beleevers was not the covenant , but his exemplary faith , as i gather from the words of the apostle , rom. . , , , . . and this is all the accession of strength i find him opposing to my so manifest weaknesse . the rest is answered already . mr marshall pag. . sayes , i raise a dust about his argument , because i tell him he doth not distinctly expresse what the promise is , acts . . and i require of him to forme his proofes into an argument , as if it were unreasonable to require him to make a syllogisme in mood and figure in a sermon . and yet hee did make diverse in that sermon , as pag. , . but it seems neither then nor since is he willing to tell what promise that is , acts . and then conclude syllogistically ; for then it would plainly appear that that text serves not his purpose , who in his second conclusion will not assert that the promise of saving grace is made to the naturall seed of beleevers ; and yet that text speaks of the promise of christ , and saving grace by him . however i remember this was doctor prideaux his manner in oxford , to require the disputant when he urged a text to read it , and then to gather his argument from it ; and this i ever took to be a bringing of light , and not raising a dust about an argument . and i shall still professe it to be a very irksome thing to me to answer an authour that will not doe so , and till mr marshall doe it , shall censure him as one that takes not the way to clear truth , but to darken it with multitude of wo●ds , among which a man shall have much adoe to find the medium and the conclusion . mr marshall , pag. . accuseth me of slurring , plundering , darkning the ●rguments of my adversaries . if he had told me wherein he had done me a pleasure , that i might know how to amend it , but if he mean ( as his words pag . [ to bring in so many imaginary senses , thereby to darken an argument ] import ) in that i tell h●m his conclusions and speeches may have many senses , and desire him to set down what sense he means , it is a conceit scarce sober , sith it is plaine that distinction and distinct expression is rightly called by logicians lumen rationis , and is the onely way to enlighten , not to darken speeches . and therefore all that are able in dispute , make this their chiefe businesse to distinguish termes , or things that differ ; and then set down their conclusions , and frame their arguments and answers , which is the thing i would have mr marshall doe : nor is my pretending obscurity in marshall a kind of art to evad● what cannot plainly be answered , as mr geree conceives , vind . paedobap . ch . . sect . . but a means to find out the force of the argument , that i might give it a plain answer . whereas i had framed the fifth argument in my exercitation thus . that which in succeeding ages in which it was in use , was in force . . as a tradition not written . . out of imitation of jewish circumcision . . without universall practise . together with the errour of giving infants the lords supper ; and many other humane inventions under the name of apostolicall traditions that is deservedly doubtfull , but such is infant-baptisme ; ergo , mr marshall pag. . . tells me , this is a poor argument . and yet such arguments have been accounted after other arguments from scripture of great moment against papists and prelates , in rejecting of ceremonies . but how doth mr mar. answer this ? he denies the major , which hath been accounted good in other points . and then because i make a severall proofe of the severall parts of the minor : he repeats my words as if i had made a severall argument from each branch , and to make a shew of their weaknesse , puts in another argument and conclusion then mine , as like , with this inference . ergo , we are not bound to observe it , ergo , it was not a duty , which were none of my conclusions . and then sayes , this kind of arguing is almost as wild as that which the schooles call à baculo ad angulum , and the boyes in the schooles would stamp and hisse at such an inference . i professe if i should in schooles repeat my opponents arguments as mr marshall doth mine , i should allow the boyes in the schooles to stamp and hisse at such a practise . mr marshall pag. . hath these words . you still goe on in your wonted equivocation of the word covenant of grace , taking it onely of the covenant of saving grace , not including the externall way of administration with it . i this i said above i did because i love to speak plainly without equivocation , but it seems to mr marshall that which i count plain speech without equivocation , is equivocating with him . but what a ridiculous charge is this ? it 's equivocation when a word is taken in various senses . is it equivocation in me to take the word covenant of grace onely of the covenant of saving grace ? this is like as if a man should be charged with speaking nonsense , because he speakes good reason in right language . but i hope by this time the reader doth understand who hath used sophistry in disputing , i or master marshall . what i said of the assembly , pag. . of my examen , i did it not to cast filth in their face , as master marshall construed it ; but as a brotherly intimation of my feares and apprehensions to make them cautelous , whose wise and faithfull deportment in that great trust reposed in them is of great moment to the whole christian church . of whom i professe i am still jealous out of love to them , that especially in this matter they are not so sensible as they should be of the truth of god , and the good of the church . for which jealousie , and for what i said about wasting of time about inconsiderable things comparatively , i suppose i am able to give a sufficient account . and this i speake meerly to awaken them , and to prevent that inconsideratenes through an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 passion , or such like cause usually befals such meetings , and is the cause of much woe to the church of god. be it well or ill taken liberavi animam meam meam , i have freed my owne soule . there are some other things wherewith mr marshal endeavors to render me a suspected person ▪ pag. . of his defence . i cannot but wonder , why you ( who pretend to be familiarly acquainted with the secrets of antiquity ) should have so much correspondency with them who are not likely to helpe you with any certaine intelligence . hugo grotius is the strongest stake to support your tottering hedge ; and sure i am grotius was a friend to the socinians , and it is well knowne what they thinke of baptisme . to this i answer , it is untrue that i any where pretend to be familia●ly acquainted with the secrets of antiquity , i say , so farre as i can by search find it is thus and thus , but never did take upon me familiar acquaintance with the secrets of antiquity . it seemes master marshal had the helpe of his friend , and so there was a colledge to answer my booke , yet after he and his friend have done all they could in this point , it doth not yet appeare but that i was in the right , to wit that infant baptisme is not so ancient as is pretended . for he hath not yet acquitted the treatise of questions ad orthodoxos from bastardy ; nor hath he answered that which i said that the words and whole scope of irenaeus , lib. , c. . shew that the place is not meant of baptisme : but with a new device , such as it concernes the authors conscience to looke to , when he is told the words and whole scope shew that the place is not meant of baptisme ; in which i chiefely alleaged the words , the answerer saies nothing to that , but maimedly sets downe my words thus ▪ in the last place you labour to prove that it is not meant of baptisme from iren●●us his scope in that place . and then sayes that though the scope be so , yet the words prove the question in debate before us . which is a manifest abusing the reader , never answering the reason i gave from the very words and whole scope , that they could not be understood of the rite of baptisme . and for origen all that is yet brought cannot acquit the passages alleaged from suspicion of being supposititious , considering that origen is taxed for pelagianizing , whereas those words are point-blanke against them , which being observed by me , the answerer thought it wisedome to say nothing to it . and for the rest of the testimonies master marshall brought , i did confesse nazianzen , cyprian , augustin , hierom , ambrose mention paedobaptisme , but never upon mr marshal's ground federal holines , but upon 〈◊〉 supposed necessity to save the infant from perishing . master marshall it seems rests much on augustines words , that he saith . hoc ecclesia semper habuit , semper tenuit , hoc a majorum fide accepit , hoc usque in finem perseveranter custodit ; he puts it therefore in the title , pag. . of his defence , and pag. . quotes for these wordes augustin . serm. . de verbis apost . i have read over that sermon tom . of his workes againe and againe and find not those wordes there , nor any to that purpose , i have also read sermon . de verbis apostoli , which hath the title de baptisme parvulorum adversus p●lagianos , and i find not there those words ; onely these i find there . sanctus cyprianus est quem in manus sumpsi antiquus episcopus sedis hujus , quid senserit de baptismo parvulorum , immo quid semper ecclesiam sensisse monstraver●● p●ululum acc●pit● , i deny not but that those wordes may be in 〈◊〉 but if master marshall had given me more certaine direction where to find them , i might then perhaps have given a more direct answer . however for these reasons i conceive litle cause to be moved with those words . first , because i find not that augustin tooke it to be the tenet of the church from any other ground , then the epistle of cyprian , . ad fidum , concerning which he saith that cyprian hath shewed how the church hath alwayes held it , both in the words above cited tom . . serm. . de verbis apost . & tom . . lib. . de peccat merit● & remiss . c. . &c. and yet he that reads that epistle of cyprian shall find cyprian onely declaring the determination of the councill of bishops there mentioned , but nothing of the churches alwayes holding it . secondly , the famous story of the likelihood of cheating augustine and the rest of the african bishops with a supposititious canon of the nicen council by three roman bishops to confirme appeales to rome from africa in the case of apiarius doth me thinkes shew , that augustin might easily be mistaken about the tenet of the church . thirdly , the many speeches in augustin , as epist . . and elswhere , and others of the ancients , about easter , lent-fast , episcopacy , infant communion and other traditions which are not credited by protestant , nor some of them by some popish writers doe cleare him from arrogance , or impudence that should say there is ▪ no great reason to give so much credit to that large assertion of augustin ( if it be his ) as master marshal and some others seem to give to it . fourthly those words of augustin tom . . de peccat : merito & remissione , lib. . c. . optime punici christiani baptismum nihil aliud quam salutem & sacramentum corporis christi nihil aliud quam vitam vocant . unde nisi ex antiquant existimo , & ● apostolica traditione , qua ecclesia christi i●situm tenent pr●ter baptismum , & participationem dominicae me●s● , non solum non ad regnum dei sed nec ad salutem , & vitam aeternam posse quenquam hominum pervenire , do me thinkes evidence that augustin sometimes called that the churches tenet , which he gathered by conjecture from the practice of the african christians knowne to him . but it will be said the pelagians did not deny infant baptisme to have been the practise of the church . i answer , nor do i deny that it was in augustines time the practise of the latin and greek churches to baptize infants in case of necessity , but that it was so from the beginning , and alwayes in the church we do not find the pelagians yeelded , yet did they not perhaps question it , either because they were carried away with that erroneous rule that what they saw every where practised , and found not when it began to take that for an apostolicall tradition , or because of the tyranny of the present custome , which augustine himselfe somewhere confesseth , that though he misliked , yet liberius improbare non andeo . but saith master marshal pag. . i cannot but conceive it likely , that augustines ecclesia semper habuit , semper tenuit , should sway as much with the intelligent impartial reader , as master tombes his non semper habuit , non semper tenuit i grant it should and much more , yet the authorityes , and reasons i bring should be i account sufficient to weigh downe augustines testimony . i had said the determination mentioned by cyprian epist . . ad fidum , a● farre as i can by search find , is the spring head of infant baptisme . master blake in his answer to my letter , pag. . i desire to know what colour of truth you can put upon these words . i answer , the words are true without any colour put upon them , for i did not deny that i found infant baptisme practised before , but that the determination of that council was the spring head , that is as examen ▪ pag. . the first determined rule , or canon , by force of which it hath since continued in a streame , and this is true . having formerly searched for austines words so often alleaged for the practise of infant baptisme , upon the publishing master blakes booke i found them , not as master marshal quotes it , serm. . de verbis apostoli , but as master blake cites it , ser. . and upon reading of them , the thing that augustine saith the church alwayes had , held and keeps , seems not to me to be the practise of infant baptisme , unlesse by consequence ( which in matter of history is not so cleare a proofe ) but the doctrine of originall sin in infants , which pelagians denyed , not the practise of baptizing infants . for the words immediately before are nemo ergo vobis susurret doctrinas alienas . and these words are onely a passage in a sermon ad populum , in which usually there is not such exactnes , as in other workes ; & among those sermons , which are not out of all question whether genuine . but that the reader may judge of this testimony , i wil set down the words as i find thē . nullus hominum in ista quae ex ▪ adam defluit massa mortalium nullus omnino hominum non aegrotus , nullus sine gratia christi sanatus . quid de parvulis pueris , si ex adam aegroti ? nam et ipsi portantur ad ecclesiam . et si pedibus illuc currere non possunt , alienis pedibus currunt ut sanentur accommodat illis mater ecclesia aliorum pedes ut ven●ant , aliorum cor ut credant , aliorum linguam ut fateantur : ut quoniam , quod aegri sunt alio peccante praegravantur , sic cum hi sani sunt , alio pro eis confitente salventur . nemo ergo vobis susurret doctrinas alienas . hoc ecclesia semper habuit , semper tenuit : hoc a majorum fide percepit : hoc usque in finem perseveranter custodit . quoniam non est opus sanis me dicus sed aegrot antibus . quid necessarium ergo habuit infans christum , si non aegrotat ? si sanus est qu●re per eos qui eum diligunt medicum quaerit ? si quando portantur infantes , dicuntur omnino nullum propaginis habere peccatum , & veniunt ad christum : quare non eis dicitur in ecclesia , qui eos opportant ad ecclesiam . auferte hinc innocentes istos non est opus sanis medicus , sed male habentibus : non venit christus vocare justos sed pecca●●res ? nunquam dictum est sed nec aliquando dicetur . which last words shew that augustine spake these things not as an historian from good records , but as in popular sermons is wont , out of conjecture from common practise in his time . certainly the last words augustin could deliver on no other ground : this testimony then hath a weake basis . and me thinkes the testimony of chamier panstrat : cathol . tom . . lib. . c. . § . denique hunc morem quis non videt ejus temporis esse , cum vix millesimus quisque baptizabatur non adultus , & in catechumenis diligenter exercitus might serve to ballance augustines testimony inconsistent with so many likelihoods to the contrary . which testimony of chamier master marshall might have vouchsa●●d to have taken notice of , though it was but in the margin of my booke . nor hath master marshall or his friend yet it proved baptizing of infants of beleevers , by reason of federall holinesse taught by the ancients ▪ master geree puts a passage of t●rtullian de anima , cap. . ex seminis praerogativa procreari sanctos in his frontispeece , and master marshall conceives me sick of it . i answer , i blesse god no truth makes me sicke , it would make me well to see paedobaptisme proved either of scripture , or primitive antiquity . but for this testimony of tertullian my stomacke was quickly eased of it , as finding not onely by reading , delacerda his note on it , but also by considering the occasion and words going before that ex seminis praerogativa imports not federal holines , but holinesse , by reason of the freedom from that unholinesse in their procreation , which the infidels children had from the many grosse idolatrous superstitions , by which they were defiled , and as it were dedicated to the devill . and i conceive hieromes words to paulinus , epist . . cited by master blake in his answer to my letter , pag. . expounding thus tertullian , assereas sanctos dici fidelium filios , quod quasi candidati sunt fidei & nullis idololatriae sordibus polluantur , shew that in tertullian the praerogative of seed , notes onely freedome from pollutions of idolatry , at or before their birth , not covenant holinesse , and the word candidatos fides , the same with designatos sanctitatis prove that they were holy in expectation , because in hope and intention believers , and so to be baptized . and though i find tertullians words some-what obscure , as all his writings are ; yet in that he cals them designatos sanctitatis ( which seems to be meant of baptisme ) not onely ex seminis praerogativa , but also ex institution is disciplina , which master marshall himselfe interprets of their education , pag. . of his defence , it seems plaine to me , that this place proves that tertullian makes their christian education the antecedent to the baptisme of beleevers children in his daies : and so this place makes against master marshals tenet not for it . it is true , the ancients doe allusively call baptisme circumcision . as they do the lords table the altar , the lords supper the sacrifice , the presbyters priests , the deacons levites ; nor do i deny that they say circumcision was a type of baptisme , ( which protestant writers grant not ) and that they thereupon make baptisus succeed circumcision , and they argue for baptizing of infants from circumcision , this i granted in my exercitation and examen . but yet i thinke neither master marshall nor his friend can shew that they argued thus , the children of abraham were circumcised by vertue of the covenant , i will be thy god and the god of thy seed , therefore the children of beleevers onely are to be baptized by vertue of the covenant i find that they argued thus from circumcision , circumcision was the remedy against originall sinne , and the male that is not circumcised , shall be cut off from his people , so baptisme is the remedy of originall sin , and by reason of it , the unbaptized infant dying , shall bee damned . but i thinke if master marshals friend could , he would have shewed that they argued from federall holinesse of infants of beleeving parents , to the capacity of baptisme ; this i yet think is a late device , no elder then zuinglius as i said in my examen . and so my hedge is not yet tottering , but rather mr marshal's hedge , whereby hee fenceth infant-baptisme either from antiquity or scripture is already so broken down , that a mean scholler may goe through it ; and if any truth-searching scholler bee satisfied by mr marshals writing , it is to me an amazement . . as for that which he saith , that grotius is the strongest stake in my hedge , meaning in point of antiquity , therein master marshall is much deceived . for , . the chiefe stake in my hedge in point of antiquity is the observation upon what ground the ancients taught infant-baptisme , which was not covenant-holines , but supposed necessity to save the child from perishing ; and the supposed power that baptisme hath to give grace , which i gathered from cyprian , augustin , and others , but do not remember that i received it from any but by my own observation . . my hedge was in some sort made in my exercitation before i ever took notice of any thing in grotius about paedobaptisme , which was about the time i began to frame my examen upon occasion of mr thomas goodwin his citing his annotation upon matth. . . where grotius is so farre from being a stake in my hedge , that doctor homes , pag. . saith , that for grotius his own opinion it is clear and full for infant-baptisme upon that of matthew v. . and therefore i suppose his testimony is the lesse to be suspected in this matter . i confesse that grotius put me in mind of that of gregory nazianzen , which i find in the relation of his life , that though his father were a greeke bishop , yet he remained unbaptized , till being sent to athens to study ; being at sea he was in danger of drowning : and being perplexed , that he was likely to dye being unbaptized ; he resolved to be baptized when he came to shore . mr marshall askes how i prove his father was a christian when he was born ? to this i answer , that i had thought mr marshall had not been ignorant , that this instance of gregory nazianzen's father is brought by many protestant writers against the papists that deny marriage to the clergy , to prove that then bishops were married , and did use their wives . if mr marshall please , he may read what chamier panstrat : cathol . tom . . lib. . c. . § . . sayes of his father and mother . i also found in grotius the instance of chrysostome , which i confesse i took upon his word as wanting books and time to read so much as was necessary to examine the matter , grotius not directing whence he had it . but if that instance do not hold , the instance of hierome is plain , whom erasmus in his life proves out of his own writings to have been born of christian parents in pannonia , yet was baptized at rome , whither he was sent to be taught the learning of that age . the testimony of the councill of neocaesarea i did not remember till grotius put me in mind of it ; but i trusted not to his quotation only , but found the same in o s●●nder his epit. eccles . hist . cent. . lib. . c. . at the yeare . with this note ; non intelligo quid sibi posterior hujus canonis pars velit . as for the words they are so plain , that mr marshals evasions are but shifts . for though it be true that the canon was only about children in the womb , yet the reason of their not baptizing , is not either because they were not yet born , or suretres could not undertake for them , but because in the confession in baptism , every ones free choice is shewed . which plainly declares that councill held that none were to be baptized , but such as shewed their own free choice by confession . as for balsamon and zona●as it is true that i have not read them but taken their testimony from grotius , because the testimony of the councill of neoc●sarea , ancienter then the first nicene was the thing alleaged , balsamon and zoharas were only glo●●ers ; yet mr marshall sayes nothing to zonaras , and what he brings in answer to balsamous glosse is nothing to the purpose . for neither did grotius nor i say that balsamon denied infant-baptisme according to his own opinion , but that from that canon balsamon and zonaras , do infer that an infant cannot be baptized because it hath not power to choose the confession of divine baptisme , which is all one with that which mr marshall himselfe saith , pag. . there is required of him that would professe himselfe a follower of christ ( 〈…〉 the last words of the canon ) a free election : or ( as balsamon hath it ) there is required of everyone in baptisme his own promise , which an infant in its mothers wombe cannot doe . and can an infant out of the mothers womb do it ? so that it is plain even by mr marshals own explication of the canon , that that council held that those were only to be baptized , that could make a promise themselves . i doubt not but that this councill allowed baptisme of infants , as nazianzen did in case of danger of death , but i think it is plain that out of that case they allowed not the baptisme of an infant , no not though a beleevers infant ; till the child could make its own confession : as appeares from their scrupling the baptizing of the mother converted now with child , lest it should be taken to reach to the child in the womb , and from the generall reason , that every one manifests his own free choice in confession . and i am peswaded that this was the true state of baptisme in those dayes , in the greek and latin church ▪ that they did baptize all sorts of infants whether of beleevers or unbeleevers , in case of danger of death , least they should perish for want of it ; in which case lay-persons did baptize : and augustine contra epist . parmeniani , cap. . lib. . saith , si autem necessitas urgeat , aut nullum , aut veniale delictum est . but otherwise they baptized not ordinarily , till they came to years to make their own confession . the cases of nazianzen , augustine , and hierome , constantine the great , and others ; and their solemn baptizing onely at easter and whitsuntide , which is observed in the rubrick of the english liturgy , me thinke should abundantly satisfie men concerning this truth . i cited likewise grotius his speech of many of the greekes , who in every age even to this day , doe keep the custome of deferring the baptisme of little ones , till they could themselves make a confession of their faith . for which words though he cite no authour , yet i presume grotius , who is even by spanheimius , often stiled vir summus ; would not have said it , unlesse he had some ground for it . mr marshall sayes , i might blush for justifying the anabaptists , in saying that the ancients , especially the greeke church have rejected the baptisme of infants for many hundred yeares ; meaning in the first ages after christ . but as yet , neither mr marshall nor his friend have shewed me sufficient reason why i should retract it . for what he brings out of photius and balsamon , men of much later standing about the later canons , and imperiall lawes of the greekes ; and one of the canons concluded in carthage against the pelagians , requiring infants to be baptized : proves not , but that the greeke church rejected baptizing of infants many hundred of years in the first ages ; nor doth it overthrow that of grotius , that many of the greekes ( he doth not say the greeke church ) in every age to this day doe keep the custome of deferring the baptizing of little ones , till they could themselves make a confession of their faith . yea , the lawes brought by mr marshall rather prove it . for why should lawes be made for it , but because many did neglect it ? and the story out of balsamon about captives of christians , rather shewes that some were not baptized , when little ones even among ch●ristians , because they determine if there were no witnesses to prove their baptisme , though children of christians ; they should bee baptized . as for grotius his being a friend to the socinians , it is nothing to me , who knew not grotius nor his wayes ; nor ever pleaded for him . yet i remember i have read that though he was accused thereof long agoe by ravenspergerus , hee was justified by vossius , and what ever rivet , maresius , laurentius , charge him with , yet his works have a place among the learned , and may be read and made use of cum judicio , at least as the works of papists , lutherans , prelatists , &c. who yet may be tainted with errours . even theophilus philokyriaces , loncardie usis ; if i mistake not master marshals friend , doth in the very title page of his dies dominica , and in the book make use of barenius his testimony in his annals ; an authour and work as much excepted against ●● grotius . nor doe i find that in that wherein i made use of grotius , he hath deceived me ; or i or he wronged the truth , or our reader . mr marshall pag. . of his defence saith , that he perceived i have made great use in this controversy of an arminian booke commonly known by the names of censura censurae whereas i never read the book or made any use of it , till i read this passage in mr marshals defence . but since i confesse i have read chapter of it , and am by that i find there the more confirmed in that truth , wherein i concurre with that authour : though the truth is the chiefe light i had for antiquity in this matter , was some little reading of my own , and that which i read in vossius his theses theol : de paedobaptisme . but because mr. marshall hath accused me as having correspondencie with them who are not likely to help me with any certain intelligence , that it may appeare that i used what diligence i could to get most certain intelligence when i applyed my selfe to answer mr marshals sermon , i presumed to write this ensuing letter , to that famous learned gentleman , mr john selden , of the inner temple . clarissime vir , inter theologorum placita haec obtinent , baptismum ioannis & christs circumcisioni judaicae succedere , ejusque locum occupare : atque inde paedobaptismi ri●um deduci . mihi verò cum de paedobaptismi origine , tum de successione baptismi in locum circumcisionis an vera tradant theologi isti , gravis diu insedit dubitatio baptismi enim institutum longè aliud esse à circumcisione , & paedobaptismum in ecclesiis christianis nonnisi in seculo post apostolos secundo obtinuisse plurima suadent . inter alia vero istud urget , quod legerim alicubi ( quanquam libris jam spoliatus locum judicare ▪ nequeam ) baptismi ritum fuisse satis notum ante joannis baptistae tempora in admissione proselytorum aut discipulorum apud judaeos , & interrogatio pharisaeorum non de novitate ritus sed de authoritate baptizantis quaerentium , joannis evangelii cap. . co● . . idem innuere videtur . et forsan 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , apud eundem cap. . com. . ad usurpationem istius ritus spectabat . paedobaptismum verò ignotum fuisse primaevis ecclesiarum christianarum temporibus asserit ludovicus vives comment in augustini de civitate dei , lib. . cap. . quapropter vir ornatissime , super istis apicibus doctrinae successione scilicet baptismi●● lecum circumcisionis , & paedobaptismi origin● , te ( cujus periti● in rebus & scriptis hebraicis & ecclesiasticis , veritatis amor animique candor satis spectantur , & latè praedicantur ) consulendum duxi . pla●eat itaque claritudini tu● mihi quanquam obscure 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tamen , tanquam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , super ●stare animi sententiam tui impertire . et quoniam sat scio te plurimis iisque gravissimis negotits occupari responsum tuum , se● pluribus , seu pa●cioribus verbis tempore à ●eipso posite expect abit . dignitatis vestrae observantissi●● , joannes tombes . londini ●●dibus recto●is ecclesiae 〈◊〉 church , 〈…〉 august●●● . . though the answer was no other then a reference of me to the books i might meet with in stationers shops , yet i conceived this advantage i had by it , that what i found in books extant might be the more safely relyed on , and that my diligence to discover the truth would be the more apparent , for which i denied my selfe rest ; and without recompense from men , layd out more then my estate could beare . but m. mar. seems ready to catch at any thing that may make me suspected , and so bring my writing out of credit ; & p. . of his defence , thus he speaks . i am misinformed by good friends who know & love you very well if your self incline not this way to baptize any , whether turks or heathens , who onely would make a profession of their faith in iesus christ , & then admit them to al other ordinances , & not have them excommunicated à sacris , but onely à privato consortio ; though their lives should prove scandalous . to which i say , that i deny not , but that in private conferēce lamenting the sad condition of these nations , that are likely to cut one anothers throats about the differences between presbyterians & independents ; i have said that i doubted whether ever excommunication à sacris , or the presbyterian or independent ecclesiasticall government , would be proved to be jure divino by christs appointment . and i confesse that i take it to be but a matter of prudence , whether each congregation have it's compleat power and order within it selfe , or that it bee ordered in some things by an assembly of select persons out of divers congregations , and whether congregations and pastours be fixed , or unfixed . and i doubt whether the power of the keyes , matth. . . be any other then doctrinall ; whether matth. , , , . contain any other direction then about particular injuries between brother and brother , or let him be to thee a heathen and a publican ; be any other then shunning familiar converse : whether cor. . . the mourning that the incestuous person might be taken away from among them , was any other then upon solemn fasting and prayer by the whole church of corinth , out of a holy zeale to gods glory by anathema curse or imprecation , to imprecate the vengeance of god upon him for the injury hee had done to god , and the christian profession ; that he might be taken away from them by god , and whether the delivery to satan were any other then an act of apostolicall power , or such as like them had power over unclean spirits tending to the taking away his naturall life , as molinaeus in his vate● . and i conceive the apostle verse , , , . of that chapter ; proceeds from that particular occasion to generall directions concerning the d●●lining society with them that are vitious : which directions are manifestly concerning arbitrary and voluntary society in civill things , such as in a sort in some case they might afford to infidels , and then concludes . and ye shall put away from among your selves that wicked one , which as ainsworth observeth on deut. . . are the same words that the greeke useth , deut. . . and in like manner , deut. . . . . noting the event of executing judgement by killing , whereby the guilty person and the guilt of his transgression was removed from them . and in reference to the incestuous person if notes the consequent of their mourning that he might be taken away from them , v. ● . not by such a processe as is either used in episcopall courts , or presbyteriall consistories ; or congregationall meetings ( though i think this last way comes nearest to it of any of the three ) by conventing , trying , hearing w●nesses , and then pronouncing a judiciall sentence according to the determination of one or more by plurality of votes , but by a solemn detestation of the fact , mourning for it , and with joint commotion and concurrence of spirit complaining of it to god , and imploring his vengeance to cut him off , and so to vindicate his own name and people . which i conceive the lord did then in an extraordinary way , when they had no christian magistrate or other power to avenge that injury to god and his people , in that ch●rch which was endued abundantly with speciall gifts , cor. . . cor. . cor. . which fact , i for my part doubt how it can be made the foundation of an ordinary meer ecclesiasticall judgement , with jurisdiction as superiours that claime authority without speciall gift ; in the time wherein a christian magistrate is ready to execute judgement on such offendors , any more then the fact ; judg. . of the whole congregation of israel , in avenging the fact of the men of gibeah , when there was no king in israel , might be drawn into example for an ordi●nary practise when they had judges , m●ch lesse how hence may be concluded any such thing , as power of suspension from the lords supper for every emergent scandall so judged by a congregation , or congregationall presbytery . nor doth the church loose by having a christian magistrate , if that jurisdiction be wanting ; sith i suppose it is better provided for by the constant care of a christian magistrate , if conscientious in executing judgement : if not , such censures have been seldome executed with conscience , or good effect . and though it be , that many magnifie the vertue and benefite of their juridical excommunication yet the best intelligence i have , makes me question whether it hath not been rather an engine of much harme , as being used rather against dissenters in opinion , and opposers of profit , then men openly vitious , mannagers of that cen●ure generally shewing themselves irreconcileable to them that dissent from them , but favourable enough to vitious living . neverthelesse i deny not , but that there is a discipline proper to the church , as namely in case of erroneous doctrine , and superstitious pra●tise , contrary to the christian faith or worship according to the practise . acts . and command , tit. . . rev. ● . . . and in case of vitious life according to the scriptures , tim. . . thess . . . , . cor. . , , . and if any assembly of ministers and rulers bee set up for the better discovery of such , that a person be not charged with those evills upon uncertain reports ; i think it agreeable to gods will , tim. . . and if it happen that any such facts be perpetrated as are like to that of the incestuous person : i doubt not but the whole church may and ought to disclaime the person so offending , and to exclude him from all brotherly communion , because i conceive so much was done to the incestuous person , as i gather from cor. . , . yet herein they did not act as judges that had power of jurisdiction over him , but as physicians out of charity seeking to cure him . and i suppose in the manner of doing these things , we have not certain precise direction from gods word , but that we are left free by god to order such things though pertaining to christians as christians by alterable rules of prudence . and thus farre i have thought good to expresse my selfe in this matter , because of mr marshals words tending to render me suspected as if i did monstri aliquid alere , nourse some monster . as for my opinion about baptizing , i have publiquely declared when i examined whether to visible church membership were necessary reall sanctity in the judgement of church-officers , that by profession sufficient to it , i mean a profession of repentance and faith in christ , which is serious , sober , free , and understanding ; but denied that it is necessary there should be a further probation by trying mens spirits , so as to satisfie the particular congregation or church-officers ; that a person be admitted to church-membership , and the lords supper . i confesse such triall is requisite in admitting into speciall function ▪ or intimate society ; but not to communion in worship . and my opinion is , that as much is required to make capable of baptisme , as of the lords supper ; and that being admitted to the one , if rightly performed , they are not to be debarred of the other , for want of a further triall of their spirits . and though i never said that by rectifying baptisme , all the abuses i mention following padobaptisme would be removed ( for i did not make paedobaptisme the sole or principall cause of them , that is mans corruption , which will fall into those or the like in some measure , if paedobaptisme were removed ) yet it is true which i said in my examen , part . . § . . the onely way to further reformation , is to begin in a regular way at the purging of that ordinance of jesus christ , to wit baptisme . even as though all ignorance and superstition were not removed by removing latin service , yet that was the onely regular way to begin at the removing it . and it is easie to conceive , that forasmuch as the grosse ignorance of people is much occasioned by their baptizing afore they know , that if they were not baptized till they knew christian religion , as it was in the first ages , grosse ignorance in christian professours would be almost wholly reformed , and for christian walking , if baptisme were administred with a solemn abrenunciation , profession and promise by the baptized in his own person , & upon that were baptized , i doubt not but it would have more aw on mens consciences then many other means used or devised , considering how in the primitive times men differred baptisme for feare they might not enjoy their lusts , and they were counted by some as guilty of inexpiable crime that fell away after baptisme : and on the other side , infant-baptisme is the ground upon which innumerable people ignorant and profane harden themselves as if they were good christians , regenerate , and should be saved without holinesse of life , never owning or considering any profession or promise made for them as theirs . there have been other suggestions hinted by mr geree , but amplified in clancular whisperings concerning my former conformity to ceremonies and episcopall government , which are carried about in private to render me a person suspected , and to lessen the credit of my writing , the chiefe part of which i have answered in my sermon intituled fermentum pharisaeorum ; and the time , end , necessity , manner , and circumstances in doing what i did , being pleas sufficient to acquit me , and the things not belonging to the present cause , but being fitter for private audience . i will trouble the reader no further with my apology , assuring my selfe that setting aside this opinion of paedobaptisme and common infirmities , my life , labours doctrine even in the judgement of those that dissent from me , and knew me , will abundantly answer for me against all clancular whisperings whatsoever . and concerning my two treatises notwithstanding mr ley's censure passed perhaps afore he had compared mine and my antagonists writings together ; i may rather say , that by my two treatises , there is such a wound given already to infant-baptisme , that however men may play the mountebanks and skin it over , it will never be cured at the bottome . for in point of antiquity it still stands good which i asserted ; that infant-baptisme is not so ancient as is pretended , as now taught , is a late innovation ; that a great number of those that sought reformation in the thirteenth century , opposed infant-baptisme ; that the doctrine of anti-paedobaptisme neither undermines magistracy , ministery , lords day , nor any true interest of the infants of beleevers , that the argument from the covenant to the seale , is either a tautology , or invalid without a command , that the covenant made with abraham , gen. . was a mixed covenant having in it not onely promises of spirituall benefits common to all beleevers , but also peculiar promises concerning things temporall ; that acts . . being meant of christ and saving benefits by him ; as master marshall confesseth cannot serve master marshals turn to prove his second conclusion which he denies to be meant of the promise of saving grace , as if it were made to beleevers and their naturall seed . as for master marshals paraphrase , which he calls argument , pag. . . of his defenc● ; i think it to bee most absurd in that it makes the promise , acts . . when applyed to the fathers to be meant of justification , when to the children , of outward administrations ; nor so expounded are the words true : there being no such promise . that rom. . . &c. proves not that there is the same church state in the churches of the gentiles , that was in the jewes , so as that the infants of beleevers should by vertue of naturall generation be reckoned as visible members , forasmuch as now the church is not nationall as it was then , nor gathered as god did the jewish church by taking the whole nation for his people in one day , but now the church of god is gathered by preaching up and down , some in one place and some in another in succession of time ; that cor. . . speakes not of federall holinesse , but matrimoniall ; yea if the reason of the lawfulnesse of the living of two persons together in disparity of religion , be taken from the vertue of faith in the one party , not from the relation of husband and wife , as mr marshals exposition makes it , the medium of the apostle to prove the lawfulnesse of the living of a beleeving wife with an unbeleeving husband , will as well prove the lawfulnes of the living of a beleeving forni●atrix with an unbeleeving fornicator ; as may appeare by a syllogisticall analysis of the apostles argument : the major whereof is this , according to mr marshals exposition . that man and wo●an may lawfully dwell together , notwithstanding the unbeleefe of the one party whereof one is sanctified by the faith of the other for begetting of a holy seed ; this is manifestly the force of the apostles reason after his exposition . nor is it necessary to insert [ being husband and wife ] sith the sanctification is not ascribed by him to the relation of husband and wife , but to the faith of the one party , as the proper cause of it . and by mr blake birth . priviledge , pag. . holinesse in the text , is a fruit or result of faith in the parent . now the assumption ; the unbeleeving form catour is sanctified by the faith of the ●eleeving whore for the begetting a holy seed master marshall denies not , but salkes only ; telling me pag. of his defence , he could name divines who are no whit infer●●ur to my selfe , who conceive that a beleever even then when he commits fornication with an infidell , doth so remove the barre in the unbeleeving party , as that the child is ( in the beleeving parents right ) to be r●ckoned to belong to the covenant of grace , and the church of god , which is in his sense to be sanctified ; and it must needs be granted , for 〈◊〉 causa ponitur effectus , if the quality of faith be the cause of that sanctification , the sanctification followes in one , as well as the other . the conclusion then followes from mr marshals exposition , that the beleeving fornicatrix may still live after conversion , with her unbeleeving fornicator ; for they are still sanctified for the begetting of a holy seed ; and the children so begotten are federally holy , it being gods rule in this case : if mr marshall say true , partus sequitur meliorem partem . but this is so absurd a thing that i beleeve mr marshall himselfe will when he understands it ▪ quit his chiefe hold , and the judicious reader explode the exposition of cor. . . of federall holinesse . and for the third conclusion of mr marshall , he hath not yet proved that the rite of baptisme was appointed by christ to succeed into the room , place , and use of circumcision ; or that a command concerning circumcision , should be a command concerning baptisme : yea my exposition of colos . . , . is acknowledged right by mr marshall , and consequently his inference overthrowne , as i said above . as for that which i alleaged that baptisme was an old rite among the jewes in initiating proselytes , to shew that baptisme in exact speech doth not succeed circumcision , but is a continuation of an old rite to an●ther purpose ; as in exact speech the lord doth not succed the pas●●over , but is an old rite used at the paschall supper among the jewes , and contin●ed by christ to another purpose ; mr marshal catcheth at as a proof for infant-baptisme , because then the proselytes children were baptized : pag. . but the answer to it is easie . for though the rite of baptisme was an old use continued by iohn baptist and christ . yet i say it was to another purpose or use ; as i shew , pag. . . of my examen , clean of another nature ; as mr lightfoot harmony , part . . pag. . and was used according to another rule then among the jewes . for they did not baptize jewes either elder or younger as the same learned men i cited confesse , but onely the gentiles because they were uncleane ; and they were initiated by sacrifice as well as baptisme , with many other differences : but iohn the baptist and christs disciples baptized jews as well as gentiles , without sacrifice . as for mr marshals fourth conclusion , he confesseth pag. . that the formall reason of the iewes being circum●●sed was the command , which if true ; it is the distinguishing and constituting reason , qua posita ponitur res , non posita non ponitur ; so that the jewes ought to be circumcised because of the command , without a command what ever were their interest in the covenant or church-state , they were not to be circumcised . now this is as much as need be to overthrow mr marshals argument , which is to prove that infants are to be baptized precisely by vertue of interest in the covenant without a command , because as hee supposeth the jewes infants were circumcised meerly by vertue of the covenant ; for so the analogy or proportion in his reasoning must hold . the jews infants were in the covenant , and therefore were to be circumcised ; ergo , it must be so with beleevers children now in baptisme ; where the formall reason is supposed to be the covenant : but mr marshall both pag. . & pag . confesseth the formall reason is the command ; and therefore though the covenant be pu● , yet if the command were not put , circumcision of infants ●ad been no duty , but a will-worship ; and by parity of reason it is so in baptisme : infants are not to be baptized barely by vertue of covenant-holinesse without a command ; which is the main thing i contend for . as for the fifth conclusion of mr marshall , that which i answered continues still , that circumc●sion though it were a priviledge to the iewish church , as the arke , ●abernacle , high priest , temple were , b●longing to that nationall church-state , to have themselves and infants circumcised ; yet it was a priviledge proper to that time not now to continue : as the apostle , gal. . & . heb. . & . shewes , it did not belong to the substance of the covenant of grace common to jewes and gentiles ; and so neither is it or any thing in the room of it any more a priviledge to us now then some house the room of the temple : some chief bishop in the room of the high priest , &c. and therefore i say still , that this argument is indeed of no weight , but among vulgar and non-syllogizing capacities ; and that divines that use it do but flatter the people by it ; and that if the reason be good , it overthrowes our compleatnesse in christ , in whom we have circumcision , arke , temple , priest , all ; and as i said in my exercitation it is the very egge out of which most of the popish ●eremonies were hatched ; to wit , because they thought wee must have priviledges as the jewes , and therefore must have something like that they had . mr marshall , pag. . of his defence , speaketh thus . first for the point of will-worship i shall desire you to prove this conclusion . that all things belonging to christian worship even in the circumstances of it , even the ages and sexes of the persons to whom the ordinances are to be applyed , must be expressely set downe in the new testament ; if you prove not this , you say nothing to the purpose , for this is our very case . to which i reply . that i owe not m. marshall such service , as to prove what he shall like another eurystheus injoyn me : i have pag. ● . pag. of my examen syllogistically set down my argument to prove infant-baptisme will-worship , it belongs to him to tell me what he denies in my syllogisme , that i may prove it , though i have already done it , and sha●l doe more fully when he tells me what he doth deny : but it is a meer shift for him to impose on me the proofe of a proposition i owne not , and not tell me what he denies in my own syllogisme . this is contrary to the rules of disputation i have been acquainted with ; yet if mr marshall shall declare that he holds the subject of baptisme to be but a circumstance , i shall be ready to oppose him therein further ; and shew that the point in difference is not the bare age or sexe , but qualification of persons to be baptized ; yea the reason and main use of baptisme . as for mr marshals principle for his virtuall command i have shewed above ; that when he should have brought all protestant divines averring this maxime , that all the commands and institutions of god about the sacraments of the jewes ; bind us as much as they did them in all things which belong to the substance of the covenant , and were not accidentall to them : in stead of this he alleageth another thing , that protestant divines make the same generall nature , end and use of our sacraments , and the iewes sacraments , and argue thereupon from one to the other , which is quite beside the businesse . for the maxime is of commands about the sacraments , and they are all about the rituals or administrations , and concerning commands about the sacraments , binding us as the jewes , he produceth not one command binding us , or one protestant avowing it . as for the command , matth. . . when i said , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to make disciples , but no where are infants said to be discipled , mr marshall tels me that some learned criticks say that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , answers to an hebrew phrase among the rabbins , of admission of schollers that they may be taught ; which though i beleeve not , yet if it were granted serves not mr marshals turn , unlesse he can shew that infants were said by them to be thus admitted-schollars . then mr marshall referres me with a blind direction to spanheimius , whom i have consulted , and i find many absurdities in that learned authours words dub . evang. part . . dub . . this in effect he sayes that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 containes not the act the disciples were to doe , but the end of their sending , which i think is so absurd that it needs no other refutation then the mention , and then that they might 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without teaching them ; whereas he himselfe sayes , non significat solum docere sed & discipulos facere , so that according to him it includes teaching and somewhat more , and aequipollet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 io : . . which was by teaching , and the parallell place , mark . . is , preach the gospell to every creature . i had said in my examen , that the speech of baptizing lydia's houshold , acts . . must be understood by other places which when they expresse the baptizing of the houshold , they expresse also the beleeving or receiving of the word by the whole houshold , and by the frequent [ mr marshall alters it into sometimes ] use of the word , which is to put the house for the people of growth in it . mr marshall saith , who taught you it must be so interpreted ? i answer , augustin lib. . de doct . christ . c. . ubi autem ap●rtius ponu●tur ibi discendum est qummodo in locis intelligantur obscuris : cha●●ier panstrat , cathol . tom . . lib. . c. . and all those divines among which i think mr marshall is one , that say we must expound one text by comparing it with others that are like . to that i said , that [ house ] is frequently taken for the grown persons in it ; mr marshall sai●● , it may very well be granted , and hurts not me , unlesse you can prove it must be so meant . though i think i proved it must be so meant , yet it is enough to shew that mr marshall cannot prove from the baptizing of housholds an example of baptizing an infant , sith , the word house may be taken ( as mr. mar. saith , may very wel be granted ) for the grown persons in that house . as for mr marshals second argument , because there was an equivocation in it ▪ and in one sense the major must be denied , in another the minor ; and if the major be understood in one sense , the minor in another ; there bee foure termes , and the syllogisme is naught . to this mr marshall makes no reply in a logicall form , but tells us in a loose discourse , that forasmuch as there is no infallible ground of certainty , but onely of charity , that any growne person to be baptized hath actually the inward grace ; and so in charity ●ee are to conceive of beleevers infants , because christ said , mark . . of such is the kingdome of god , they are to be baptized so that in his defence mr marshall alters his argument which he set down in his sermon , concluding not from a capacity of inward grace to baptisme as he did then ; but from the judgement of charity that they have actually the inward grace , which he seems to count sufficient for baptisme . mr geree his reasoning is to the same effect : vindic . paedobapt . ch . . sect . . and is thus formed by him into a syllogism , where we have evidence for judgement of charity , that there is the grace of the covenant , there we may s●e the seal of the covenant . but we have evidence for the judgement of charity , that in infants of beleevers there is the grace of the covenant . ergo , of this syllogism i deny both major & minor . acts . . doth not provethe major . for the apostle there did not baptize upon a judgment of charity of what was latent , but from a certaine sense of their magnifying god , and the gift of the holy ghost ; nor was simon magus baptized because in the judgement of charity hee had the grace of the covenant , but because he professed the faith , which was certain to philip. and this was master marshals doctrine in his sermon , pag. . where he confesseth that the apostles charity or charitable conjecture was not the ground of their admitting them to the ordinance , but the profession and confession of the party made according to the word , which they were bound to rest in . and therefore i see not how mr marshall can count a judgement of charity sufficient for infant-baptisme , without crossing himselfe in his first sermon . for my part i doe not think a minister ought to be ruled in baptizing by his own judgement of charity ( which is ofttimes very uncharitable to those that deserve best ) but by certain knowledge of true sanctification by extraordinary revelation , or of the parties profession of the faith by other meanes , either of which is sufficient , not both necessary . nor do i require of infants more assurance then of grown men , but shewes of repentance and faith in either . yet , as when one being required to bring no more then a servants testimony for the grant of a thing , if he bring the masters hand and seale without the servants testimony and the thing be granted ; he that grants it doth require no more then the servants testimony : so when i say , if shewes of repentance and faith be exhibited i will baptize , and i will baptize upon extraordinary revelation , that an infant is a beleever : i doe not require more assurance of an infant then of a growne person , when i say , if the infant professe the faith , i will baptize , if god witnesse for it that it is a beleever i will baptize , in neither goe i by judgement of charity , but certainty either of revelation or profession , which neither master geree nor master marshall can make good of all the infants of beleevers . but saith master geree there 's evidence in charity to judge that the children of beleevers have the grace of the covenant . to this i answer , the evidence for judgement of charity is to be taken from a persons own deeds according to the rule , cor. . . charity beleeveth all things , capacity of grace is common to all persons on earth , and therefore is no ground to baptize one more then another . that some infants have been actually partakers of inward grace , as mat. . . luke . . ierem. . . yeelds nothing to prove any judgement to be right that it is so in any other , but onely that it may be so . infants of beleevers are not under the covenant of grace or within the externall administration of it , by vertue of gen. . . deut. . . they speak of more then externall administration ▪ and must be understood of the elect which the apostle denies to have bin ever by god assured to the natural seed , rom. . . . no judgements of charity that the infants of beleevers are under the covenant of grace can be deducted from these texts , the most is conjecturall hope that it shall be so , which experience shewes to miscarry often , therefore these things yeeld not a warrant for infant-baptisme . doctor homes argues from matth. . . that baptizing did in nature antecede imposition of hands , which is false ; nor doth heb. . . prove it . nor is his argument good , infants had the greater christs blessing , therefore they had or might have the lesse , to wit baptisme ; which reason if good , it would follow they might have the lords supper , be ordained ministers : for these are lesse then chris●s blessing . afore the printing of this apology , i met with and read a book of one mr william hussey a man unknown to me saving by a former treatise of his which i have seen , and he intitles it satisfaction to master tombes his scepticall exercitation : and in his epistle to the reader he saith , and here i will turn sceptique with master tombes . if i should give him the title of fantasticke in requitall of the title of scepticke he pins upon me , i could give better reason for it then he brings for his imposition of that new title on me : but it is enough for me to clear my self . gel. l. . c. . noct . attic. sayes , the ●y●honian philosophers were called sceptickes ; that is , seekers and considerers , because they determined nothing , but were alwayes in considering and seeking ; but master marshall thinks me guilty rather of too much selfe-confidence . yea in this point though i did as i conceived befitting me then , propound my thoughts in the disputation with my brethren in the ministery , and in my exercitation to the committee of the assembly under the term of doubts ; yet in my examen i assert them as positions , and therefore that authour doth unworthily intitle my exercitation scepticall , or me a scepticke : which is in effect if he understood what he sayes , to accuse me as adhering to nothing as certain in matters of sense , reason , or faith . but concerning the book though he intitle it satisf●action ▪ and the licenser sayes [ finding it to be in his judgement solid and judicious ] and i am pretty well acquainted with the humour of men , who are ready to cry up any thing as satisfactory , which they affect ; yet i beleive the assembly will not conceive his book satisfactory , nor these passages following to be solid and judicious . as that in his epistle to the reader he calls baptisme the seale of the proffer of grace . pag. . i answer , that was an especiall priviledge of the iewes that they had their civill lawes from god , but what lieth upon a nation as a duty that it may require of all , and cuts off them that refuse ! and this is implyed in the commission , when nations shall covenant to be discip●●s , which may be done by a part for the whole , then are such ● are in commission from christ commanded to baptize and teach the whole nation , such as are in authority may covenant in a nationall 〈◊〉 for the inferiour sort , and justly require all externall performances from them , such as baptisme and submission to b●e taught 〈◊〉 , pag. . and what a parent can doe over his child in matter of 〈◊〉 duty , ● that may the parents of the country , the magistrates require of the nations . god requireth it of them , they may put all nations to schoole to christ , now , what if some of them be too young to learne , yet if they be under the discipline of the master they are schollers ? as may appeare in many litle children that are set to schoole to keepe them safe , and from wantonesse , before they be of capacity to learne , many have a hornbooke given , more for a play-game then a booke , yet are they schollers , because under the discipline and correction of the master ; is it not therefore great reason , that a christian should dedicate his child●● to christ , to be partaker of the blessing and discipline of christ ? pag. . and certainly words could not have been invented that could have required the ministers to baptize all the world , infants and all , willing or unwilling ; so that any would see they might be taught , and submit to the precepts and discipline of christ , then to expresse it by the word nation and d●sciple . pag. . abrahams seed must be divided into equivocall and univocall ; equivocall seed christ , for that he was not like abraham , he was of abraham , but ex parte according to the flesh . rom. . . he was the promised seed , not the seed unto whom the promise did belong , as the seed of abraham . pag. . that which we argue from receiving of families , and from the apostles commission to baptize nations is , that nations may make lawes for their whole nations to be baptized ; and if the major part of a nation do according to their duty receive baptisme , and undertake for the whole nation to submit themselves to become schollers of christ , they may justly compell by any penalty to joyne with them in the externall worship of god. this therefore is it which is drawn from the commission directed to the disciples for the baptizing of nations , that nations may act as nations , and families as families ; that is , that the more organ●all parts must act for the residue ▪ the magistrates for the nation , the master of the family for the residue , the magistrates for the nation , the master of the family for the family ; otherwise it cannot be said to be the act of the nation , or of the family , though a post factum may be historically related to overspread a nation that is done without a nationall consent , to shew the universality of a spreading evill : yet , where a duty is charged upon a nation , it cannot be orderly received without a nation ●ll consent . pag. . he that keepeth any servant that will not be baptized , is not a good christian : it is true , all men of discretion ought to consent sent to every duty ; baptisme 〈…〉 precepts 〈◊〉 , it is pactum impositum pag. . the parties to be baptized are all nations , withoutany restriction 〈…〉 . if they that claime their interest in baptisme can undertake for whole nations , the commissioner : must not refuse them : the nation bel●eveth by the magistrate , by whose authority the whole nation is put to schoole to christ , pag. . men may require of him that is of years to consent to his baptisme . 〈…〉 a sinne , and punishing him for it as for adult●ry formation or any other publique offence . pag. . if any will bring turkes children , and infidels to baptisme , and 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 of them in the doctrine of the gospel , i know not but they may : and if 〈◊〉 would 〈◊〉 with their children to christians , i thinke it were a very charitable thing so to do : for the promise was ●ever so tyed to abrahams loyns , neither for ought i know , to any beleevers , but to education in the family of abraham , or any other beleeving family . pag. . they that beleeve , and they that beleeve not heare the word , and 〈◊〉 is no 〈◊〉 of the work●● preach it to 〈◊〉 infidel , neither 〈◊〉 it any 〈◊〉 of baptisme , to baptize an infidel . pag. . and indeed , 〈◊〉 were a very strange thing for the sacrament of baptisme to be tendered to 〈…〉 , and approved , declared and 〈◊〉 to be 〈◊〉 ; it is true , it may be tendered to men this professe them faith , because man cannot judge them faithfull , notwithstanding any profession , and therefore baptize them ; but if they could know and judge them faithfull , they might give them the lords supper , in which all christ is communicated , and baptisme should not be 〈◊〉 , baptisme is the seale of the tender of christ , 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 power of his blo●d , 〈◊〉 of our communion , or partaking of christ ; that is sealed in the other sacrament . pag. . it is true , adultus must have faith , such as it is , naturall , human : before he can be baptized , he must be willing by some inclination or other : it were barbarous to baptize a grown man àgainst his will , which could not be gotten but by some kind of 〈◊〉 , though it might be just with man to punish him with death that should refuse , as it is with god , to punish with eternall death such as despise baptisme . nor do i thinke the principal ground of his new conceit pag. s. will satisfie , which is , that matt. . . is thus to be expounded , make all nations disciples by baptizing them , and teaching : whereas he himselfe sundry times reads it better , make disciples of all nations baptizing them , and it is vainely alleaged that [ by ] is implyed in the participiall expression , any more then verse . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must be expounded hee met them by saying , or matth. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they followed by ministring unto him ; and i said justly , examen pag. . this conceit is so absurd , that i presume none that hath any wit will entertain it , though master hussey say page i thinke if ever a man were out of his wit , it was here : but i shall be willing the assembly judge whether of us two need sayle to anticyra to purge our braines . as for his answer to my book though i conceive it lettice fit for some lips , yet in my apprehension it containes a fardell of mistakes , in logick , divinity ; and sometimes in grammar , but most of all of my meaning , and the scope of my words , and for●e of my reasons , which being diligently compared with his book , are a sufficient reply to it . and therefore though hee conclude with a challenge to me , yet he must pardon me if i make more account of my time then to cast it away in refusing such wild notions as he hath vented , except i shall have so much spare time as to write a booke to make sport with ; wishing nevertheless that master hussey had some schoole of divinity as he desires , that he might be either better fitted to write , or learn to be silent . i have been larger in this matter then i intended at this time , that i might shew the vanity of mr leyes vaunt , and however god dispose of me , doe my indeavour to cleare the truth in this thing , and to prevent persecution of it through the provocation and exasperation of spirit towards anti-paedobaptists , which since these writings have been published , hath many wayes discovered it selfe . if the lord spare me life , liberty , and meanes , and it bee found necessary ; i may either more briefly or more largely rescue my treatises from their hands , who have ill handled them and perverted the truth . in the mean time this which is already said might serve a judicious reader to answer the writing of my antagonists though no more should follow . mr mar. book it appears from pag. . . . was contrived by divers : i beleeve the ablest of the assembly , i wish it were declared whether the paedobaptists would stick to that work or any other . i heare there are more yet to be printed , if the aime be to oppresse me with number , or to have this evasion ; that when one is answered , yet some other is not answered ; and so to uphold the errour still ( which is a way of jesuites ) i doubt not but god will defend his truth . what hitherto is objected against my two treatises and appendix , i doubt not but with gods assistance to answer . afore i could finish this apology , i have tasted the fruits of mr marshals , and mr gerees accusation in a message from the benchers of both houses of the temple ; that though they acknowledge my life and labours among them unreproveable , yet by reason of the publishing of my treatises they cannot continue me here . it was foretold me , that some of the assembly would not give over till they had outed me hence . if any of them have disswaded the people from hearing me , though they cannot shew that i have preached any other thing then gospell truth ; if they use any arts to withdraw the people from me , i wish them to consider how they can acquit such actions from the sin of making schisme , and stopping the course of the gospell for their own ends , not permitting any to preach the gospell without concurrence in opinion with them , when as paul rejoiced that christ was preached ; though it added affliction to his bonds , phil. . . what my desire was in the prologue of my examen , is still , that we may give one another the right hand of fellowship , and stand fast in one mind in the truth of the gospell , and cleare the truth of god to the people whose eyes are upon us . i may call god to witnesse that my ayme in making and publishing my treatises , was the benefit of the assembly by making knowne to them reasons why the doctrine of the directory should be better examined , which would be their honour : if they disclaim me , reject me , repay evill for good , i hope god will help me to bear it , and to love them still , and joyn with them in promoting the work of christ ; notwithstanding i meet with discouragements where i assured my selfe greatest encouragement . to conclude ; as the case now stands , i know not into what corner of the 〈…〉 world god may carry me , nor how i may be accommodated to publish any thing more either in this of infant-baptisme , or any other point of sacred knowledge ; it is not a little comfort to me that i have framed this apology , it shal be my witnesse in time to come that i have sought unity with truth ; and as i have made it my busines to preserve purity of doctrine , so i shal stil though i have neither found recompence nor help considerable from men , but rather am likely to meet with a consumption of estate , & a shortning of my dayes . however things succeed , i shall request that they that can pray , would beg for me that i may doe nothing against the truth , but for the truth ; and for the churches of christ , that the pastors and teachers in them may take heed of bending their wits to maintaine what the prime reformers , and churches ordered by them have avouched , rather then impartially and throughly to examine their doctrine , which as it is a great sin of making other masters then christ , so it is a cause of most mischievous rents and contentions . finis . a postscript , wherein is a reply to mr. blakes answer to my letter . reader . be pleased to take notice , that whereas i say p. . of this apology . molin in his epistle to bishop andr●w●● ( if my memory deceive me not ) confessed is to have been 〈◊〉 ipsis apostorum temporib●● , meeting since the printing of that passage , with the booke i find that in that epistle he only confessed it to have been a secule apostolis proximo , but bishop andrewes saith , he had put out that which elswhere he said ab apostolorum sicul● . whence my mistake of memory conceiving he had said it there , which he said elswhere , but altered it in that epistle . . that though i had seen most of the latter part of mr. blakes answer to my letter have dayes before , yet i had not the whole booke till aug. . , at which time the tenth s●eet of this apology was printing off ; and therefore i cannot give thee so large 〈◊〉 on it , as i desired to doe ; yet i have thought it 〈◊〉 say thus much in this streight of time , as not knowing how i may be here●● fitted to write any more . the book is ●hered with a preface of mr. calmys and mr. 〈◊〉 , in which they say . the right of infants to baptisme is ear●● strongly by 〈◊〉 arguments , if leg it 〈◊〉 couse quener can make a 〈◊〉 evidence . to which i say , that master marshals first argument is accounted the strongest , and that is far from being 〈◊〉 , as hath been shewed above . they say the 〈◊〉 of the church in all ages in baptizing them is 〈◊〉 by such unde●● testimonies of credible witnesses , that he that doth not see it may well be called strabo , that is , goggle eyed . how true this is the reader may perceive by the examen of master marshals sermon , and this apology . the best or rather only witnesse of ancients for such a practise is august●n concerning whom how litle reason there is to count his speech and undiable hath been before declared here , and in the examen . they say of the birth-priviledge of master blake : where thou shalt find the question so truely stated , and set upon the right basis , and so well fortified , that though there hath been a dust raised ( by some who have a better faculty to raffle and intricate an argument than to wind it off ) yet there is not the least wing of it routed . to this i say , the state of the question hath small difficulty , litle or no disagreement between me and master marshall , and master geree , and i thinke the like of others . if by the basi● is meant master blakes observation pag. . of the birth-priviledge , a people that enjoy gods ordinances convey to their issue a 〈◊〉 to be reputed of a society that is holy , to be numbred amongst not ●ncleane , but holy . this observation is ambiguous , it may be true in a sense , that it so happens frequently ; but if it be meant in this sense , that they convey by their generation of them a right of visible church-membership , and title to the initiall seale , as it is usually called it is not true : which onely serves for the purpose . now the wings by which that observation is fortifyed out of the new testament , ( wherein the strength lyes ) are acts . . . rom. . , . pet. . . gal. . . gal. . . cor. . . now for three of these to wit pet. . . gal. . . gal. . . they flye of themselves , the first expressely being spoken of them onely that beleeve , v. . the second to wit , being born after the flesh , cannot be understood as importing a priviledge or benefit , it being spoken of persons to the worser sense , and causing a casting , out of the inheritance : the third is meant not of a jew allusively so called , but of a jew by naturall generation , opposed to a gentile , and so cannot be said of the children of believing gentiles ; nor can all master blakes words keep them from running out of the field . the text acts . . if it be understood ( as it must ) of the promise of saving graces by christ cannot be verified of any but those that are called , which it being confessed to limit the first , branch of the propposition , and the last , you , and as many as are afarre off ; it is to mee against reason and truth that it should be left out in the middle , that is , that when it is said the promise is to you , and to all that are afarre off being called , it should be asserted in that branch that is between , the promise is to your children whether called or not . of rom. . , . i have said sufficiently before . of cor. . . somewhat also before : and intend more in this postscript . if mr calamy and mr. vines accuse me of raising a dust , and raffling and intricating an argument ( which i imagine they doe because the raising of a dust is master marshals phrase ) they are answered in this apology . my entring into the lists with mr marshall was not out of choice as valuing my self , as they mistake ; but out of necessity lead thereto by providence of god. how well i have acquitted my selfe may appeare by the bringing of master marshall to many concessions which overthrow his first argument . whether this answer of master blake be sinewy for argument , i hope in time to examine . i conceive that to put the question upon the right basis , is to examine whether the formall reason why the jewes were circumcised , were their interest in the covenant ? whether there be the same church-state now that was then ? whether any command about the jewes sacraments now bind us ? but i passe to mr blakes answer . mr blake chargeth me with defect and neglect of charity . for the former i doe not take my writing to discover it , what i shall deprehend i have failed in , i shall i hope confesse to god , and to master blake when we meet . my not speaking to master blake was , because i presumed master marshall had acquainted him with the thing , and the reason of printing my treatises as they were is declared above . why i would not take upon me the place of opponent in the dispute with my brethren i gave the reason , because the argument would presently lead them to oppose ; this being al my argument against infant-baptism that i could wel urge in dispute , that it is not appointed by god , and so presently upon one or two syllogismes they must become opponents again , sith affirmanti incumbit probatio ; i sent not my exercitation to my opponents because i was advised to send to the committee , named in the prologue of my examen ; the rest is answered in the apology . to the point of antiquity in ch. . i thinke not needfull to adde any more here . to the third chapter sect . c. master blake because i said examen pag. . these i mention , that you may see what stuffe paedobaptists do feed the people with , doth the●● against reason , and charity inferre , that i branded therein all the ministers of christ that ever held infant-baptisme , whereas my speech being indefinite should in such a contingent matter have been interpreted only as equipollent to a particular proposition , 〈◊〉 the words were used onely of that author , and such as delivered like doctrine , with particular exception of master marshall , and many others there named . passion i confesse was in me sometimes in writing my examen , a mixt passion of griefe , and indignation , that preachers of the gospell should be so hard , as then i found , and saw likely would be more ; to their dissenting brethren upon such weake reasons . but such contu●●licus consurer and practises as master blakes sinister conceits p●t upon me i deny . to the second section i answer , that i still conceive , they that deny infant-baptisme , and grant originall sinne , are 〈◊〉 necessitated to say that infants perish in their births●● . it is true as master blake sayes , they that will hold a certainty of the salvation of such infants , they must maintain a promise or covenant to them ; but such a covenant i deny to be made as assures salvation to the infants of beleevers : and i have proved at large , examen part . . § . . there is not such a covenant . if that gen. . . be produceed i have proved that it was particularly spoken of abrahams feed , expounded rom. . . not to be meant of his naturall feed , but spirituall , and therefore till it be proved that all infants of believers dying in infancy , are abrahams spirituall feed ; that promise will not inferre the certainty of their salvation . therefore , this is my judgement : that god will have us to suspend our judgement of this matter , & to rest on the apostles determination . rom. . . but they that hold that there is no certainty of their salvation , are not necessitated to hold a certainty of their perdition , for there is a medium between both , a hope though not certain , yet probable , and comfortable , that the children of believers dying in their infancy are saved ; taken from some generall indefinite promises : the favour of god to the parents , and the experience that in all ages hath been had of his mercifull dealing with the children of his servants ; all which cannot be said of the infants of infidels , though on the other side we must not so exclude the infants of infidels , as to affirme that none of them are saved . for though the gentiles were without hope ephes . . . in respect of the body of them , yet now and then god called some , as rab●● out of the visible ch●●ch , and therefore we may not determine universally that out of the visible church there is no sal●●tion at all : but leave this to gods free-will . it doth not 〈◊〉 follow , tha● beathens have equall hopes of sal●●●ion with infants of 〈…〉 . for though they have not hopes from their innocency in themselves , or certaine interest in christ ; yet they have more probable hopes of interest in christ upon the g●●●ds 〈…〉 . and thus is that section answered . the fourth chapter is about my censure of his argument from gal. ▪ . as containing very grosse passages . he ace●seth me as one that intended not any 〈…〉 , because i bring but one branch of the 〈◊〉 in his argument , and yet call it his medium , but ●ith i intended not a full answer to him but to master marshall it was enough that i onely reci●ed that in which was indeed the strength of his argument , which was that birth after the flesh , ascribed to some now , gal. . . imports a priviledge , 〈…〉 church int●●st to 〈…〉 the bos●● of the church of christians . in saying this was very grosse , i sayed no more then that which was right : the apostle opposing persons borne after the flesh , to them that are borne after the spirit , to be cast out , and not to inherit . but sayes master bl●ke , you shut out the literall sense of birth after the flesh , both from the history , and parallel , and bring a● allagericall 〈◊〉 in both , when the 〈◊〉 in the text is evident . i answer , i shut not out the literall sense from the history , but from the parallel ; and that i● so farre from being contrary to the text , that it is expresly said , these things are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . but he further objects : you make birth after the flesh , and birth of the spirit , two contradistinct species of births , that both cannot be incident 〈…〉 it is the distribution of a subject 〈…〉 i answer , i make them not onely contradistinct , but also contra●● ; and i deny that it is a distribution 〈…〉 for them the same person should be both borne after the flesh and after the spirit . which i would tell master blake to be very absurd , but that i would give him no more occasion to say i do insult , whoop , and jeere , which he unjustly chargeth on me . and for that he saith , that isaack was borne after the flesh , ( though it be true , he was so in the two senses master blake mentions which are nothing to this place of the apostle ) it is untrue in the apostles sense , for then he should be the child of the bondmayd ; not by promise , a persecutor to be cast out not to inherit , and a type of legall justiciaries belonging to the covenant in mount sinai , for all these things are true of him that is borne after the flesh , gal. , , &c. but the apostle doth not say , that they are cast out , but mentions a command of casting them out . as if gods dictum were not factum : if they were not cast out , why doth the apostle alleage that text ? but they are in the church , otherwise they could not be cast out . i answer , i deny not but legall institiaries may be in the visible church , as ishmael in abrahams house ; though the apostle make the parallel only in the casting out that they might not inherit , but if master blake would gather any thing hence for his purpose , he must prove that the apostle makes some to be in the visible church , by vertue of being borne after the flesh as their prerogative , which is as wide from the apostles meaning , as east & west . but saith master blake where i pray you , do i make suoh abrahams seed ? it is no grosse errour of mine , but a grosse device or calumny of yours . i answer , his words [ if there yet remaine in the bosome of the church children borne after the flesh , so that distinction of births ( as applied to abrahams seed ) still hath place amongst beleeving christians ] shew that he applied birth of the flesh to abrahams seed , else why are those words put in [ at applied to abrahams seed ] but to shew a double seed of abraham , one borne after the flesh , which is all one with the apostle as legall institiaries , another borne after the spirit , which is all one as bebeleevers ? so that this is master blakes tergiversation , not my calumny . in the fifth chapter mr blake complaines , that i take more paines then needs to find out master marshals meaning in his second conclusion , and after . and indeed i never saw a learned man so run himselfe into a maze needlesly , as you in this discourse do ; being at a stand ; you say , whether master marshall meanes a covenant of grace , or outward ordinances , as though these two were opposite , and priviledge of ordinances were not of grace , or that saving grace could be had , in gods ordinary way , without this priviledge . to acquit my selfe of this imputation , i say , that it was very necessary to take that paines i did , to bring my selfe out of that maze which i had not run my selfe into ; but the confusednesse and ambiguity of master marshals expressions lead me into . master marshall had made this the anteceedent in his first argument , the infants of beleeving parents are faederati , or within the covenant of grace ; this i conceived to be the same with his second conclusion , though against the rule of dispute he varies the terme [ faederati , or within the covenant of grace ] into this , [ he would have to be accounted his , to belong to him , to his church and family , and not to the devils ] which i do not take to be equipollent . this necessitated me to shew the many senses of his words , and to take paines to find out his meaning ; else i , knew not what to deny , or what to grant . now , to clear the matter : when it is said , infants of beleevers are faederati , or in the covenant of grace , this may be understood three wayes . they are in the covenant of grace by their owne act of covenanting , because they promise the performance of the condition on their part , and this sense is manifestly false ; and yet when master marshall sayes they are to be accounted covenanters , he speakes as if he meant so : for what is a covenanter but he that makes a promise ? they are in the covenant of grace by the administratours act , because he gives them the seale of the covenant ; but then the second conclusion should be , they are baptized or to be baptized , now this being the same with the antecedent of master marshals first argument , his argument must be thus ; infants of beleevers are baptized , or to be baptized , ergo they are to be baptized , which is meerly to trifle : and yet as i shewed above , this is the effect of master marshals arguing , who will have his second conclusion , and antecedent understood of the outward covenant , as he cals it . they are in the covenant of grace by gods act of promise , and this is that which master marshall should have said , if he would have spoken plainly without equivocation , god by his promise to the infants of beleevers puts them in the covenant of grace , or he accounts them in the covenant of grace , because he hath promised grace 〈◊〉 them , and not have said god would have them accounted his by us , by giving them the outward covenant , as he calls it . now , if he affirme this , that god hath promised grace to infants of beleevers , this grace is either saving grace , or outward ordinances . but saith master blake these are not opposite , but sub●●dinate . be it so , yet they are distinct , and the promise of the one is not a promise of the other : the promise of the word and sacraments , is not a promise of the spirit . now here was the doubt , whether master marshall affirme a promise of saving grace to beleevers infants , or of outward ordinances . i said neither was true , yet the former was more agreeable to his meaning . to prove this i alleaged , that though sometimes master marshall , master blake and others spake more warily , ( in which i dealt candidly with master blake , reciting his expresse words full enough for the purpose ) yet i said most of mr. marshals and others expressions , and one expression of master blake spake as if they meant that god had made a covenant , or promise of saving grace . and to prove it to be their meaning : produced their allegation of these textes , acts . . gen. . . matt. . . which are to be understood of saving grace , and that otherwise the seale would be put to a blanke , and that master blake saith , god promiseth to be a god in covenant to his and their seed , which people in covenant have also a promise from him of the spirit . now what sayes master blake to this , he denyes not that these texts speake of a promise of saving grace , but askes me how 's they are meant , whether absolutely or immediately ? and then fastens upon me an assertion that is none of mine , and i beleeve wrongs master blackwood too . but herein master blake goes from the businesse , and instead of a respondent becomes a poser●● proved these texts alleaged by them for infants being in the covenant of grace speake of a promise of saving grace , and therefore if master marshall meane not that the covenant of saving grace is made to a beleevers child , these texts are alleged to no purpose by him . this is no place to answer mr. blakes unpertinent questions ; which he propounds to me as supposing that because i said , the texts are plainely meant of saving graces , therefore i had affirmed the jewes and all their seed had an absolute , promise of a saving grace : let master blake tell us whether in alleaging gen. . . acts . . for infants of beleevers being in the covenant , he understand not those texts of a promise of saving grace , which is all i there contend for . as for mat. . . it is pl●●●ly meant of the kingdome of glory ; luk. , . mark. . , . and for the speech of sealing to a blanke , &c. whether it be true or false it was not materiall to my purpose ; but whether it shew that he users of it assert a promise of saving grace to beleevers . mr blake upon a mistake , that i had set down sundry things as my assertions chargeth 〈◊〉 as using bellarmines argument , and s●ts down his own answer out of amesius , besides the b●sines who onely alleaged other mens speeches to shew their meaning . as for his own speech he endeavours to make it good , which for present was not excepted against , but onely alleaged to to shew that even mr blake asserts a promise of saving grace to 〈◊〉 of beleevers , for a promise of the spirit is such . but saith mr blake , some promises 〈◊〉 suppose a condition : such is the promise of the spirit 〈◊〉 here i understand it , and you may see in christs words john . . in the apostle 〈◊〉 ; ephes . . . to which i say that it is true of the speciall gifts of the spirit , or the increase , or comforts , or assurance of the spirit ; as john . . ephes . . . they suppose a condition , but if hee meane it of the regenerating work of the spirit , ( as the words lead me to conceive he meant ) then the promise of the spirit hath no condition , as doctor 〈◊〉 proves in many places particularly . the synod of dort ●●d arl● , &c. part . . sect. . and it is cleare , for if god have promised regenerating grace upon condition , that condition must be performed either by himselfe or by the person to whom it is ●●●ised ; if the condition he to be performed by himselfe . it is all one with an absolute promise ; if by the person to whom it is promised , then something may be done by a man that may procure gods grace , and so gratia dei datur secundum merita nostra , which is palagi●●sme . now they that say the covenant of grace in respect of saving graces is made to a beleevers seed ; must either exclude the 〈◊〉 promise in the covenant of grace , heb. . of 〈◊〉 god 〈◊〉 their hearts , without which he is not their god ; or else hold that promise absolute , & so al infants of beleivers 〈◊〉 be 〈…〉 saved . yet that this is the common doctrine , 〈◊〉 beleevers children have a promise of saving graces , is manifest in that from hence they assert the certainty of their salvation if they dye in infancy , not considering that if god have made such a promise to a beleevers seed , it will as well assure the salvation of a beleevers seed in old age as infancy ; sith in old age they are their seed , and the promise in respect of regenerating grace , which brings with it all the rest , must needs be absolute . and therefore the promises deut. . . isai . . . and such like must be restrained to the elect as our saviour doth ; john . . & gen. . . is expounded by paul , rom . . i had said mr marshals words must be understood as the words of the directory , the promise is made to beleevers and their seed ; which is to be meant of the promise of saving grace . mr blake conceives the meaning to be of the promises mentioned , that they are the grace promised , but i perceive he did not or would not understand my words : i did not speak of the word [ promises ] in the direction for petition , that mr marshals conclusion must interpreted by it ; but of the word [ promise ] in that assertion in the doctrinall part [ the promise is made to beleevers and their seed ] which cannot be interpreted of the thing promised ; but gods act of promise , which is said to be made , to wit by him : afore the promised is obtained . so that this new devise will not serve the words of the directory . i had said . and that in that covenant ( gen. . . ) should be a promise to us beleeving gentiles ( which words mr blake leaves out in the repetition ) that to our seed should be conferred visible church-priviledges , &c. is but a dream , &c. to this saith m. bl. this objection riseth up against god himselfe , rather then any one of your adversaries . but how this should rise up against god , mr blake neither doth nor can shew : mr blake seems to runne to his old shift , that god promiseth church-priviledges upon condition . if so , cede conditionem . let mr blake set down that condition , and i doubt not but either to force him to confesse that the reason of the preaching the gospell to some & their being visible members , is something in man which will be pelagianisme , or else gods promise is absolute ; and so god not keeping it shall be guilty of faith-breaking . master marshall , pag. . of his defence accuseth me that i sometimes say that gen. . . was a promise peculiar to abraham , at other times it was at the utmost to be extended no further then to abraham isaac and jacob , to have their posterity ( as born of them ) to belong to the visible church . but master marshall wrongs me , i have neither of these propositions in either of my treatises ; what i conceive of it i have set down plainly , exercit. pag. . . but master marshall would have the promise , i will be the god of thy seed as promising visible church-membership to belong to the naturall seed of every beleever . . because the covenant was made to him for his faiths sake . ans . if that were the motive , yet it followes not the promise belongs to every beleever as abraham ; no more then it followes , the promise , matth. . , . was made to peter by reason of his confession , verse . therefore it was made to every one that confesseth as peter did , . how else should proselytes children have church-membership . answ . not by vertue of that promise , but by vertue of gods command . exod. . to his third reason i have often answered and proved , that deut. . . isai . , . isai . . must be meant of the elect , else how did god keep that promise when he did not circumcise the heart of davids and josiahs children . master marshall pag. . puts this upon me ; that i say god made this promise to abraham isaac and jacob , to be the god of them , and their seed . but i doe not remember that i say so any where , nor that the scriptures sayes so though i meet with promises somewhat like it , gen. . gen. . . . but these promises so farre as they pertain to their naturall seed , were peculiar to them ; and pertain not to every beleever , and his naturall seed . for none of the gentiles are abrahams seed , but by faith. from all which i conclude , there is not a promise either of saving grace or church-priviledge made to the seed of beleevers , and so they are not certainly in the covenant of grace ; in respect of gods act of promising . master blake sayes , what will you say of those that remembred that god was their rocke and the high god their redeemer ; yet were not stedfast in his covenant : psalm . . . . these were a people within covenant . i say this to it , that by his covenant is not meant gods covenant or promise to them , but their covenant to god ; or rather gods commands called metonymically his covenant . master blake saith , and where i pray you doe you find those words that christianity is hereditary ? these are no words of mine but a supplement of yours . i answer , these words are master blakes birth-previledge , pag. . the priviledges which in 〈◊〉 or nation are hereditary are conveyed from 〈◊〉 to posterity , the the child of a noble man is noble , so the child of a christian is a christian , and this is all one as to say christianity is 〈◊〉 . i passe by the vindicating of two speeches of mine in this chapter , because i must hasten . to the sixth chapter i have spoken so much as is needfull before . in the seventh master blake accuseth me for abusing master thomas goodwin , but there is no abuse all ; for my words onely make use of master goodwins expression , which master blake denies not to have been his , but that he altered it , which may be unwitting to me . but for the thing i still say that the cerinthians doubt was not about their children . for that which is the doubt is to be the conclusion of his argument that resolves it , but that which the apostle speaks of the corinthians children , it is plain by the argumentative particles [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 else ware ] is a medium of a syllogism , as mr blake page . denies not ; now 〈◊〉 prob●● est per notiora therefore it was not the thing ●● doubt . besides ver . , . following pertain to the resolution of the doubt vers● , . which shewes that they are all a continued resolution of the same doubt , without any such immethodicall interposition of the resolution of another doubt ; as mr blake imagines . as for the occasion of the scruple , sith neither of our opinion● is any other then a conjecture , i let it passe . one passage of mr blakes in these words . and i pray you speake what how you doe beleeve , that the corinthiane tooke it , for a common received principle ; that if a man had as adulterous wife , that his children were legitimate , and not bastards ; so it must be if you opinion passe for a reason . i know not how he collects from my words ; i say that the corinthians took it for certain that their owne children were holy , that is legitimate ; and i say the force of the apostles argument lies in this proposition , that all the children of those parents , whereof one is not sanctified to the other , that is , doe not lawfully couple together are unclean , that is illegitimate ; and that the apostle saith , the unbeleeving husband is sanctified to the wife , that is , is lawfully used by his wife because hee is her husband , as if he had been holy : out of which , all the engines of mr blakes wit cannot extort the inference he puts on my opinion . in the second section mr blake sayes , that i heard before mr goodwins lectures of instrumentall sanctification . if it were so , yet i professe i did never heed or know it so as to take notice of it till i heard mr thomas goodwin use the phrase . mr blake to my first argument against instrumentall sanctification , saith ; and is not this argument of yours of as great force against your interpretation of a matrimoniall , as ours of an instrument all sanctification ? i answer no : for they that cannot beget children may be said to be sanctified matrimonially , that is , may lawfully come together ; but not instrumentally so as to beget a holy seed , which is master blakes sense . for they that by age or accidentall inabilities cannot be sanctified for generation , cannot beget children either by covenant or legitimate . mr blake addes . the sanctifying by the beleeving party here mentioned , respects the issue which you confesse in grounding a legitimation of issue upon it . i grant where there is issue , the holinesse of it depends on the sanctification ; but where there is sanctification , it is not alwayes supposed there is issue , or that there may be issue : to the begetting of which , they are instrumentally sanctified . mr blake . this sanctifying ( whether instrumentall or matremoniall ) hath its influence upon the seed ; such a brand lying upon all the issue , where there is issue ( be it bastardy or gentilisme ) were enough to conclude against such marriages , one principal end of marriage being posterity . he supposeth it seems , that uncleanenes is here meant , which is such a brand on the issue as is enough to conclude against all such marriages . this is very right , but i subsume that brand in all the issue where there is issue ; which were enough to conclude against all such marriages is bastardy , not gentilism . for bastardy in the issue proves the supposed marriage not to be right , but gentilisme in the issue concludes nothing against the marriage : ergo , the uncleanenesse here is bastardy , not gentilism . and thus he hath unawares given the medium of an argument against himself . to my second argument for matrimoniall sanctification , he saith . i know you cannot ignorantly , and therefore i feare you wilfully mistake , the meaning is , you may live together : for all the seed you beg at are ●oly , infallibly , and necessarily holy , as the seed of infidels ( neither parent beleeving ) are necessarily & infallibly unclean ; so that here is a future certainty , and not a contingency ; & it is not possible to imagine a morefull and 〈◊〉 answer 〈◊〉 which i say i am sure mr blake is mistaken , whether ignorantly or wilfully , i determine not ; for he speakes of certainty of the holinesse of the children in the latter part of the verse , whereas the question is whether instrumentall sanctification for the begetting a holy issue ; of which the sanctification in the fore part of the verse is expounded , be contingent or no : and this i am sure is true , and therefore their lawfull living together for present according to mr blakes exposition should be taken from a future contingent , which chamier truly counted absurd , though as happy a logician as he was , he foresaw not how it served against himselfe . bernardus non vider omnia . to my third argument he saith . here you beg the question and reason flat against the apostle . that sanctifying which the apostle mentions is aresult of the faith of the beleeving yoke-fellow , the unbeleever is twice said to be sanctified , but not the beleever ; the beleever doth sanctify , if any sense can be made of the apostles argument . i answer . he begs the question , who supposeth what he should prove : mr blake doth not , nor can shew i doe so ; nor doe i reason flat against the apostle ; the apostle no where saith the sinctifying is the result of the faith of the beleeving yoke-fellow , if it were so , an unbeleeving fornicatour might be said to be sanctified by his beleeving whore , as well as a husband by his beleeving wife . the unbeleever is said twice to be sanctified , because the doubt arose from his unbeleefe ; but the saith of the beleever is not at all expressed , to shew that the faith did not sanctifie , but the relation . but if it were meant of instrumentall sanctification , it would come from gods designation , not the faith of the one party . for whose instrument should he be that is sanctified for begetting a holy seed but gods ? now to this nothing is answered , and so this argument stands good against mr blake . to my fourth argument he saith . understanding the apostle of instrumentall sanctification and of federall holinesse , the proposition [ their children could not be holy without that sanctification ] is most true , necessarily and universally true , as the issue of such a birth , they are federally unclean and unholy ; if afterwards by grace they are changed , this is no finit of their birth , of which the question is in this place , but of the gospell work in their soules , to which i say the question is not here what is the fruit of birth , not how the proposition can be true understood of federall holinesse , and instrumentall sanctification . and i say it is most certainly false , for many a child of both unbeleeving parents are federally holy . but saith mr blake , they are not so at their birth . but this is nothing to the purpose , sith the proposition hath not those words in it , no● the apostle . the apostles reason supposeth it cannot be at any time . and yet it may bee certaine that the child of two unbeleevers may be federally holy at birth whether it be understood of election , inherent holinesse , or outward holinesse , if god please to work and declare it . but the issue of them that are not lawfully conjoyned as husband and wife , cannot be made legitimate by god because it is contrary to the definition of legitimation , which is a state consequent upon birth by the lawfull copulation of lawfull husband and wife . to my analysis of the apostle● argument , mr blake saith the last words , else were , &c. may be a m●d●● , and a resolution of another doub● 〈◊〉 : but that cannot be , 〈◊〉 it is an argument and that is 〈◊〉 drawn from the thing in doubt , 〈◊〉 à 〈◊〉 ; and that 〈…〉 which they would not yeeld , but the contrary was certain to them . mr blake mislikes not my forming the apostles argument , but he excepts against the proposition i conceive the apostles sequele p●supposeth ; which is , all the children of those parents whereof the one is not sa●ctified to the other , are 〈…〉 . to this faith mr blake , i appeale to your selfe , whether the truth of that sequel , by you rightly laid down , doe depend upon tha● proposition which you draw from them● i answer , it doth . mr blake . is the apostle : 〈◊〉 proposition of parents in generall , 〈◊〉 of 〈…〉 beleeving , and another unbeleeving in particular ? i answer , it is of an unbeleeving husband and a wise . and yet the proposition must be 〈◊〉 be of all parents which must prove it ; as he that will prove , if an englishman be noble he is honourable , must prove it by this universall or 〈◊〉 . all noble men are honourable , and not put in , all english 〈◊〉 noble ; for then the antecedent and conclusion would be al●ong : whereas the proposition proving must be larger then the proposition proved ; else we might conclud● , ex meris 〈◊〉 . to 〈◊〉 if the unbeleeving ●●●band were not sanctified by the wife your children were unclean , is all one with this . all the children of the unbeleeving husband not sanctified to the wife , are uncleane . mr blake saith , the truth of the apostles sequele depends on this proposition ; all the children of an nobeleever are unclean , unlesse for generation , he or shee be sanctified by a beleever . i deny it , for the termes for generation by a beleever are added by him , not in the apostle ; and so he changeth the terms . yet it is to be noted that though the apostles major be of husband and wife in particular , mr blake makes the proposition on which it depends of unbeleevers in generall , and so by his own practife justifies me against his owne exception . . the proposition mr blake layes down as upon which the major in the apostle syllogisme depends . all the children of an unbeleever are unclean , unlesse for generation be or shee be sanct fied by a beleever , is false ; and so is that which he saith after . all those that are borne of unbeleeving parents , and one of them not sanctified in the other , are out of the covenant of grace , yea the other is false too , according to mr blakes opinion ; unbeleeving parents never beget children by birth-priviledge holy . for children born of infidels brought into abrahams family had right to circumcision , and so were by birth-priviledge holy in mr blakes sense . mr blake tels me , the apostles proposition according to my interpretation is this . all the children of an unbeleever are bastards , except in generation he or shee be sanctified by a beleever . but this i deny : i have set down the proposition according to my interpretation plainly enough already . my alleaging chamiers words against his opinion was no jeare , but a right way of using an authors reasons against another , against his own opinion . and that i did rightly , for these propositions according to chamiers explication are included in the apostles reason . omnes nati ex tis parentibus quorum al●ur non sanctificatur in al ero sunt extra foedus gratiae . nunquam parentes infideles gignunt liberos intra foedus gratiae fusuros . the adding [ futuros ] was necessary , because their being in the covenant of grace is after their begetting ; if i had said , qui fuerunt nut sunt intra foedus gratiae , m. blake would justly then have had exception against me as not righly setting down chamiers conceit : now those propositions of ●hamier are false ; and consequently his explication according to his own grounds . the putting in [ aut fornicantes ] was , because i would include both explications of the forepart of the verse , both that of matrimoniall , which i conceive was beza's and that of instrumentall sanctification . the using of the term rid●ca●lam , was no more a jear of chamier then his using of it a jeare of augustin . but my an agonists are so touchy , that expressions that are not so much as motes in other mens eyes are beames in mine . to the exceptions of master blake . pag. . i say , though i did not keep his words , yet i keep the effect of them . if he use not the term covenant of grace , yet i suppose he will not deny he meant that which usually divines expresse by it in this point , though master blake thinkes the word covenant of grace cannot be found in his treatise for baptism , yet if he please he may find the word covenant of free grace , pag. . of his birth-priviledge used to that purpose i ascribe to him where he saith , the holinesse he maintaines is from the covmam of free grace to all in the faith , and their seed . my explication of 〈◊〉 meaning of the apostles words master blake sayes is almost the same with his in terminis . then i have not wronged the apostle , and it followes the apostle cals himselfe a jewe by nature , as tied to keep the law of moses . now i called it a dreame to make gal , . . cor. . . every way p●● allel , they neither agreeing in scope , occasion , words , nor matter , which are dissimilitudes enough . i grant his sense of the word nature , and that the apostle there speakes of himselfe and other . jewes as in reputation more holy then the gentiles , because of their interest in circumcision and observance of moses law , but this was proper to the jewes in that church-state , who had prerogatives peculiar to them . master rutherford due right of presbyteries . chap. . sect . . pag . that they had prerogatives above us is cleare , rom. . , , . rom. . . but i deny that , a holinesse of birth flowing from a parent beleeving , and in covenant is asserted , cor. . . the term sin●●● of the gentiles is not all one with uncleane , cor. . . b●●●ne chiefe thing he brings that text for , is to prove that our children have a covenant holinesse because they are to be comprehended under the first member of the distinction jewes by natu●●● . i wondered at this his collection , but it seems master blake takes the term jewes not properly for people so called because borns in judes , or of jewish descent , but allusively as rom. . . . but master blaks doth not observe that the terme jewe allusively taken is a term common to all godly people , or beleevers , whereas here jew is taken as opposite to them that are of the gentiles ; and the denomination of a jew allusively taken is not from nature or birth , as here master blake rightly expounds the word nature , but from faith , as the term seed of abraham , and the israel of god , and the term circumcision philip. . . so that master blakes owne exposition overthrowes his owne inference . but then saith master blake , our children must be under [ sinners of the gentiles ] and so they are aliens dogs without hope , &c. ephes . . . i answer , our children are of the gentiles , who were sinners , and as the apostle spea●●s ephes . . . at that time that went before their calling strangers from the covenant of promise , &c. but it doth not follow that he that saith our children are of the gentiles , who were once strangers from god , and so called sinners according to their condition then , must hold that they 〈◊〉 now . the most godly beleever now is under the second mother of the distinction , being born of gentile parents , and yet not as the gentiles were then , stranger from christ . master blake is most vaine in saying , that by my t●not there were ne more hope of the salvation of a christians inf●●● then of numa , i acknowledge no such matter , nor doth any such thing follow from my words , which are plaine and true ; master blake should , if he would have dealt fairly ; have showed 〈◊〉 of which words , and how that followes which he obtand 〈◊〉 me . when i said the iewes birth priviledge did not 〈◊〉 them to the covenant of grace , i meant the same with the apostle , 〈◊〉 yet they had this benefit by their birth that they were among the people of god , had the priviledge of 〈◊〉 according to the church-state then , were to eat the 〈◊〉 ; come into the court of the temple , had the law , christ was to come of them , rom. . , . rom. . 〈◊〉 and yet many of them not children of the promise . the 〈◊〉 of grace being made by god doth promise to all and every person to whom that covenant is made , that he shall be effectually wrought upon . i said , the common priviledge of cir●●●sion belonging to the jewes , did not arise from the covenant of gr●● , recording to the substance , of it ; but according to the administration that then was . my meaning was circumcision was common to them which had no part in the covenant made with abraham , gen. . neither an interest in the evangelicall , nor houshold promises made to abraham , as for instance ismael : and therefor i say it did not arise from the covenant of grace , or parents faith as the formal reason why infants were circumcised , but from gods command according to that church-state that then he thought good to appoint . this being clear from gal. & . master blake interprets it , as if i had said circumcision was not a signe of the substance of the covenant , and runs out in a large discourse to prove the contrary ; which toucheth not me who have expressely granted it exercit : pag. . examen pag. , &c. and it is a meer calumny in master blake , to to tell me that i close with the jesuites , and with high disdaine shake off the doctrine of the protestants . but saith master blake , pag. . you say in your exercitation , pag. . the covenant made with abraham is not a p●●e gospell covenant , but mixt . in the same place i explaine my meaning , and prove it so fully , that i wonder that master marshall , master blake and others are not ashamed to except against it . what the jesuites say in this matter , or what the protestants say against them , i have not time to examine . the thing , as i deliver it , is plaine according to scripture : that there were some peculiar promises made to abraham , ge. . which are not made to every beleever . to tell us that godlinesse hath the promise of the life that now is , tim. . . is nothing to the present purpose , for it doth not follow therefore that godlinesse hath the promise of the land of canaan or that christ should be every godly mans seed , &c. mr blake saith , circumcision was a fruit of the faith of the parents , but this is false ; for then all , & none but children of beleevers were to be circumcised , which is not true : whose children soever they were , if in abrahams house , if bought with money of any stranger , they were to be circumcised , i had said , circumcision was a priviledge in that time of the churches minority , and this the apostle delivers , gal. . & . mr blake takes it as if i had said , the fruition of the promises in such a latitude , were onely a priviledge during the time of the churches minority , and would have me give some scripture or colour of reason for it , which is to impose on me the proving of that i affirme not . i said , he that will prove the birth priviledge of our children from the jewes , must make our case as theirs , and so bring us under the ceremoniall law . this master blake puts into a formall proposition of his owne , a man of straw and then denies it , the reason of my words is plaine , circumcision of infants was from the paedagogy , , or peculiar church-state of the jewes , as may be proved from gal. . . gal. . , , . and obliged to the ceremoniall law , gal. . . therefore , they that from hence would draw the birth priviledge of our children , must make our case the same with the jewes , and so bring us under the ceremoniall law . the rest of that section is vaine , and not worth a line in answer . i said truely , that the interpetation of cor. , . of legitimation is no more to be called a singular opinion then master blakes , and that i have proved by alleaging eleven authors for it , and can do more . to the th chapter , what he sayes of doctor wilmot i assent to : he was a precious man , and my dear friend ; when master blake shall demonstrate to me what passages in my booke of scandals are inexcusable , i shall endeavour some way or other to retract them . why i did not alter one or two passages , that doctor wilmot excepted against , i shall be willing to give master blake the reason . master blake is mistaken in that he saith , that my friend of the assembly that delivered my letter to master marshal , was the man that told me of the committee of the assembly , and advised me to present the reasons of my doubts to them ; it was not he , but my reverend and deare father in law . and that friend of mine of the assembly , that delivered my letter to mr marshall , tels me that though he was desirous to have master blakes book printed , that the point might be disputed ; yet he did not approve many of his proofes : but by his speech with me lately , i conceive he did except at sundry of the same things which i did . but to the matter of that chapter . letting passe the conference , and the occurrence therein , which was promised should not be divulged by any hearers , nor was there any exact record kept of it ; the dispute is now brought to writing , the question is whether i pet. . prove a birth priviledge of christians , equall to the nation of the fewes . i deny it , and say the words there are meant of the church as it is invisible . and to prove this . i argue from the termes , chosen generatior , royall priest-hood , holy nation , peculiar people , or a purchased people , that is by christs death , tit. . . which cannot be affirmed of any other then elect and true beleevers , ergo . from that which is said of them that were called by god , by his power or vertue into his marvailous light , and v. . that now had obtained mercy which they had not before , which cannot be affirmed of any but elect persons , and true beleevers ergo . it is said , v. . that these persons did beleeve , contradistinguished to them that were disobedient and stumbled at the word , to which they were appointed , but such are onely the elect , ergo . v. . they are said to be built as living stones on christ , a spirituall house , a holy priesthood , to offer up spirituall sacrifice acceptable to god by jesus christ , which can agree to none but elect persons , and true beleevers , ergo . but the terme nation comprehends fathers and children . answ . the word nation , taken in these passages must be understood restrainedly of a spirituall people , as is plaine by considering that the apostle gal. . sayes this is the gospell , in thee shall all nations be blessed ; that is , beleevers of all nations : else the apostles collection v. . were not right . and so the word kinred is used acts . . compared with ephes . . the word houshold , ephes . . . but they may be said to beleeve with a dogmaticall faith . answ . those that do so never come to christ as living stones ; nor are built a spirituall house , which is proper to them that are made an habitation of god through the spirit , ephes . . . but the calling of a people is spoken of the ten tribes revolted hos . . . hos . . . deut. . . answ . however it be in the places to which the allusion is , it is certaine that here is meant such a calling , as is from darkenesse to his marvailous light by his vertues or powers ; which therefor deserve to be shewed forth , and which they do shew forth that are thus called . and this is confirmed from rom. . . . . which is manifestly said of them who were called v. . vessels of mercy ; nor is this a denomination a parte prast antigri , for it is expressely said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were the same whom he called vessels of mercy . and i still say that i wonder master blake would persist in maintaining so grosse an abuse of this scripture ; in which i hardly beleeve any approved writer joynes with him . master blake had said no particular president for womens receiving the lords supper , more then for this of infants . baptisme . i alleaged cor. . . where i said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 comprehends both sexes , to this master blake sayes ch . . if arguments from the grammer use be of force , then circumcision of femal● may be proved from john . . i reply , the subject matter of the command as well as the grammer use of the word prove femals to be included . master coleman an assembly man , and an able linguist in his malè dicis , pag. . hath these words . but that i confesse is something harsh , that he should aske me where there is the institution for women to receive the sacrament : when as cor. . . is as cleare for women as men . mr martin blake in his answer to master benjamin coxe ch . . sect . . pag. . produceth many places where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is as much quisque any one , matth. . . joh. . . & . . gal. . . &c. i alleaged for an expresse example of women receiving the lords supper , cor. . . & . cor. . . and this i did in the pulpit at gabriel fench-church , as mr blake tels me ; and i had fit occasion sith cor. . . was my text then , and that text is expresse without consequence for womens receiving the lords supper , if [ we ] comprehend women as well as men , which master blake will not deny . and yet mr marshals allegation to prove women virtually to be circumcised in the males serves not for his purpose , i alleaged acts . . master blake doubts whether it be meant of the lords supper , and if it b meant so he knoweth not how to avoid the pepish argument for communion in one kinde ; and that this yeelds a proofe onely by conseqvence . i answer , if women be comprehended under the terme disciples , and breaking bread be meant of the lords supper , as to me it seems certaine ; because it was the end of their custo●● meeting on the first day of the weeke , and therefore could not be any other breaking bread ; then the example is expresse without consequence , for womens receiving the lords supper . it mr blake know not how to answer the papists , i wish him to read chamier panstrat . cathol . tom . . de ench. lib. . c. . § . . &c. master blake would bring acts . . for example farre more formall and expresse then mine of infant-baptisme , and he tels me of a syllogisme . the lord added to the church dayly such as should be saved , infants are saved , therefore are to he baptized . a strange syllogisme , where in the major permi●● is not in the major proposition at all , consisting of four termes ; and so farre as i can gather in secunda figura ex omnibus affirmantibus : for the medium [ saved ] is the predicate in both premises , or else the major is particular , and so it consists ex meris particularibus . i go on to the th chapter . i said , that it is a new gospell to affirme that this is one of the promises of the covenant of grace , that god will be the god of beleevers and their seed . to this mr blake saith . a very high charge from that mouth which very lately , preached it as a gospell truth ; and now being suddenly otherwise perswaded , can bring no other arguments then those that are harrowed from antichristian ●●●aries , who are confessed sub verters of the gospell . i answer , master blake cannot prove that i ever preached that doctrine , i scarce thinke i did ever preach it : forasmuch as i conceived , that doctrine directly contradictory to the apostle , rom. ● . ever since in oxford i examined arminius his a●dysis of rom. ● . suddenly i was not perswaded as i shew in my apology before . i knowe not what antichristian sectaries he means who are confessed subverters of the gospell from whom i borro●ed my arguments ; i neither had them from anabaptists , ●o called , nor papists : master blake gives way to his passion in this charge . my arguments i have from scripture , from the most learned protestants , as he may see part . . . and though it be an old gospell , that god hath promised to be the god of abraham and his seed , yet i still averre it to be a new gospell , to say that god hath promised to be the god of beleevers and their seed . the cove●●●t with abraham and his seed i find 〈◊〉 . . and the urging of this covenant i deny not exod. . . deut. . . levit , . . exod. . . and though i say not that it contained onely the promise of 〈◊〉 , but grant it contained the promise of 〈◊〉 by christ , 〈◊〉 . . yet i like not cha●iors saying , to call the promise of can●● an app●●●● to the coven●● , sith the holy ghost me thinkes speakes otherwise , ps . . . . . . that 〈◊〉 cap. . speak not of 〈◊〉 his faederall holinesse hath been shewed before ; and 〈…〉 which master blake cites pag. . saying that 〈…〉 biunt & expectant baptismum , do me thinkes prove that infants were not ordinarily baptized in his time . nor do i thinke master blake can prove the doctrine of covenant-holinesse , out of justin martyr , epiphanius , augustin , isidor pelusiota . i had said , that i guesse by some words of master marshall , mr blake and master rutherfurd , that to maintaine the baptizing of all sorts of persons in the kingdome , as foundlings infants of papists , whores excommunicat persons ; which is the ordinary practise ; excepted against by independents , that this assertion was upon the anvil : that when a nation shall receive the faith , that is a great or eminent part ; the governours and chiefe cities and representative bodyes shall receive the faith , that nation shall in like manner have all their litle ones capable of baptisme , and counted visible members of the church , as the posterity of the jewes were in the time of that church administration . mr blake askes me , in which of these words i pray you , can you find one word of that businesse which you say is on the a●vill . i answer , to let master blakes words alone for the present , me thinkes master rutherfurds sound plainly as much ; for if notwithstanding the father and mother were as wicked as the jewes , who slew the lord of glory , who did obstinately deny christ ; the children were holy by the holinesse of the chosen nation , which i conceive when the ancestors are not included , must meane the body , or generality of the nation ; then the assertion i set downe as theirs must follow : but this i did deliver but as my guesse , yet so as that i thought necessary to oppose it ; and i say , it opposeth their owne grounds , who derive the title to infant-baptisme from the covenant , to a beleever and his seed ; but these are not the seed of beleevers , but the seed of them that deny and impugne the faith ; and from cor. . . of which master blake himselfe faith pag. . of his answer so my letter , the truth of the apostles sequel depends on this proposition , all the children of the unbeleever are uncleane , ( that is out of the covenant in his sense ) unl●esse for generation he or she be sanctifyed by a beleever . which speech of master blake i conceive plainly overthrowes master blakes position in the birth priviledge , pag. . &c. and master rutherfurds in the words before named . for if all the children of an unbeleever are uncleane , unesse for generation he or she be sanctifyed by a beleever , it will not be enough to say the nation is holy , or the mediate ancestors were holy , sith the apostles position is of the immediate parents , about whose living together the question was , and therefore saith , else were your children unclean . mr blakes answer here is a mistake of the force of my reason , which was not from the term [ beleever ] in cor. . . but from this that by their own expo●ition , they are unclean who are not borne of a beleever , therefore they cannot be holy either by holinesse of remote ancestours or the chosen nation , when the immediate pare●ts are as wicked as the jewes who crucified christ . i said the independents had the advantage in this , and i am sure they have against mr blake and mr rutherfurd , and i guesse that the assembly were sensible of it , when they appointed in the directory the child to be presented by the father , though i conceive that remedy will little or nothing rectify the abuse . mr. blake saith it were worth enquiry whom i mean by officiating priests . i tel him , non-preaching priests made by the bishops . mr blake saith , your selfe were well aware , that every weapon that you left up against this protestant doctrine was forged on the jesuitas a●vill , and that in the whole conflict you were necessitated to borrow help from the philisten artists , when you were put upon it to say page . this is no undeniable axiome , that , what all the protestant divines defend against the papists , must be truth undeniable . to this i say , i am well aware that this is a loud calumny , the contrary whereof is manifest by the many and best protestant divines i quote all along my examen , and very seldome make use of a jesuite throughout my treatise . nor was i put upon that speech i used , because i borrowed help from papists ; but because mr marshall spake of his virtuall consequence as undeniable , as if he had been doctor irrefragabilis , and it is necessary when men goe about to bind men to the consent of divines in some churches , that we freely claime our liberty , and not become the servants of men . mr blake saith i doe not know one protestant writer that hath declared himselfe in this thing , but hath declared himself to be your adversary . i answer , none of the antipaedopaptists are my adversaries in this ; yet some of them are protestant writers : in the point of expounding gen. . . which is the chiefe hold for covenant holinesse , twisse , bayne , ames , downame , and many others are for me , in the point of expounding ; cor. . . camerarius , melanchthon , musculus , o siander , are for me . mr blake saith but a little before , pag. . zuinglius in this hand went right , in which luther his contemporary and opposite in this thing , is charged to be defective . but saith mr blake , i and you have entred into covenant to the extirpation of popery ; and i would learn of you by what character or marke it may be now discerned . i answer , not by this , that that is to be accounted popery which all protestant divines oppose the papists in ; for then many things would not be counted popery which are , nor any thing to be counted popery till we knew all protestant divines oppose it an endles , impossible busines . but there is a shorter way then that , and it is that is to be counted popery which is commonly known by that name , as the doctrine of the popes supremacy infallibility , the doctrine of the masse , transubstantiation , bread-worship , crosse-worship , invocation of saints , &c. or if you will have a more fixed way , you may take that to be popery which either the articles of the church of england condemn in opposition to papists , or is renounced in the scottish negative covenant , or confession in the yeare as i remember , or what the present parliament of england in their late propositions to the king , propos . . would have papists abjure . mr blake saith , may we not require one other instance of a popish truth standing up against an orthodox errour , besides this incontroversie ? that from gen. . . cor. . . or any other scripture covenant-holines of beleevers infants cannot be proved is as well a protestant truth , as a popish ; an orthodox errour is , opposition in ●ppos●●● be it that we cannot assign any one thing for truth in which pretestants generally oppose papists ; yet my speech is good , that that is no undeniable axiome , that what all the protestant divines defend against the papists , must be truth undeniable . he that will not subscribe to this , must make the protestant divines doctrines against papists , equall to the holy scripture . in the th chapter sect. . mr. blake subscribes to my interpretation , and conclusion , but doubts the premises on which i build it to be scarce sound , the reason he gives is , because i thus expound make disciples out of all nations , whereas the verb is transitive , and the noune in the accusative ; and therefore it is boldnesse in me to change it , that in stood of nations i may understand as many or as few as i l●st of nations , whereas mr blake conceivet agreeable to prophecies , psal . . . &c. that the whole of the nation is appointed to be discipled , and to be baptized , and so infants to be comprehended . i answer , my boldnesse was no other then beza's , annot . on mat. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , idest discipulos mihi facite ex omnibus gentibus . the new 〈◊〉 on the bible annot . on matth. . . ●each ] gr. make disciples of as john . . all nations ] not jewes alone , but gentiles also ; acts . . . . nor do i any thing contrary to grammar , as the 〈◊〉 in transitive , so it is used transitively by me , and it hath an accusative case after it , to wit the noune confessedly included in the verb that is made from it , and which i think none will deny to be the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 used john . . and then all nations must either be put by apposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or with the praeposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i stand not upon it whether be taken but i conceive it more agreeable to the sense , and to the language to expresse it in the latter way , bee then the whole of the nation , and so infants will not be included . i answer , it is true , nor can they be included . for the making disciples all nations is by teaching them , or by preaching the gospell to them ; as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is expressed , markes . ●● . ( which no man i think will have the face to deny to bee the same with this ) not onely master marshall himselfe that expresseth it in his sermon pag. . that they should teach the heathen and the iewes and make them discicles , and then baptize them ; but mr blake subscribes to this my intrepretation , by preaching the gospell to all nations , make them disciples . pag. . so that mr blake must needs exclude infants , except he can make them disciples by teaching or preaching the gospell to them . and for the prophecies he brings , i marvaile he is not ashamed to produce , psal . . . psal . . . to prove that that the whole of the nation even infants must be included , mat. . . as if it were foretold that the whole of the nations even infants should come and worship before god. pareus in his commentary on matth. . . saith truly , tertium mandatum est de baptizandis omnibus gentibus , hoc est sacramento baptismi initi●●dis & consecrandis omnibus is qui christo nomen darent . in the second fiction of chapter . master blake saith , i had thought no man had equal ● bellarmin in taking paines to find a knot in a bull-rush . but i have shewed above that mr rutherfurd hath made a knot , needfull to be untyed . i say , there can no rule be assigned whereby to know when a nation is a beleeving , chosen , or discipled nation , giving right to baptize infants of that nation when not . mr blake askes , doe you mean rules so cleare and plaine that 〈◊〉 difficulty or case of conscience can occurre ; that needs enquiry in observation of it . i answer no , but such rules as are so cleare that a case of conscience may be resolved by them . m. blake acouseth me as not rightly setting down his arg●●ent , because i set not down the conclusion right : i put the conclusion thus ; and therefore the infants to be baptized , whereas i should have added : and the nations being discipled , then infants as part of the nation are to be baptized : to shew the causlesnesse of this exception , mr blake pag. of his birth-priviledge had said thus , the infants of any nation make up a part of the nation , and the nation , where they came was to bee discipled ; but set not down his conclusion , and therefore i conceiving he meant to infer thence that infants were comprized in those words , baptizing them , matth. . . put down his conclusion thus , and therefore the infants : to be baptized . mr blake would have discipled put into the conclusion . but i conceive still discipled should not be put in the conclusion , and the premises were set down by himselfe , and therefore i did him no wrong . for his argument in form must be thus . they who are part of a discipled nation are to be baptized , infants are part of a discipled nation , therefore infants are to be baptized ; any man may see that discipled should not be put in the conclusion , sith it is in the medium , quod non ingreditur conclusionem . now let his major proposition stand , and i will subsume upon mr blakes ground ; infidels of growne yeares are part of a discipled nation , for they are part of the nation ; and if the nation be discipled , they are part of the discipled nation : therefore by mr blakes reason , infidels of growne yeares are to be baptized . mr blake at last pag. . sets downe his rule , in these words they are baptized by vertue of a priviledge from their parent , not from the nation : which is plainely to renounce mr rutherfurds assertion . i confesse if my first argument against the assertion i conceive mr rutherfurds may be answered , then the d . will be easily answered as m. blake truly observes , p. . in answering my d. mr blake askes , how is it that wicked parents are now brought in this dispute ? i answer because it was the term mr rutherfurd used in his assertion : not to shew my allowance of the baptisme of infants of parents not wicked , nor out of agreement with mr thomas goodwin in this . mr blake page . indeavours to prove by my tenet there can be no rule set down to know that any man is baptizable , because he conceives i hold onely true beleevers before god , members of the invisible church , vessels of mercy , redeemed ones are the men discipled to be baptized ; but who are such , cannot be known . ergo , by my opinion none are to be baptized . m. blake indeavours to gather that to be my opinion out of my words , which are brought in obtorto cello , against their intent , nothing to his purpose . i say that mr marshals words in this sense are good , beleevers of every nation are the peculiar people meant ; pet. . . and this is meant of the invisible church ; and that god hath not chosen simply the nation of the gentiles , but a people out of them : revel . . . but doe i thereby expound matth. . . as if [ nations ] there comprehended only such elect persons and true beleevers ? or doe i any where say , that such only are disciples and to be baptized ? why then doth mr blake not onely here , but after in another chapter to wit the of his book pag. , . endeavour to fasten so absurdly that upon me , when he himselfe twice in this very book p. . . acknowledgeth , that he hath heard it from my own mouth , that baptisme is rightly administr●●●● every professour of christ . i say pag. of my examen , th●●●●nfants being sanctified are beleevers , and discipled of christ ; but i no where say , a sanctified person a beleever , and a disciple to be the same , as mr blake untruly chargeth me , pag. . for i doe not make the termes reciprocall . nor is that the advantage which i say the independents have in this point , that the holinesse that is the ground for the administratour to baptize , must be reall either indeed or charitably beleeved ; but this is the advantage i conceive the independents have , that whereas some will have children baptized though the parents be never so wicked : if they be a part of a beleeving nation , or their mediate ancestours professed the faith , the independents have advantage against them by their own plea ; from gen. . . cor. . . as i shewed above . in like manner master blake chapter . page . because i said that infants may by extraordinary power be made disciples , as god made iohn baptist leap in his mothers womb , and balaame asse speak , inferres against all reason and candor , thus . you hold this is done by the omnipotent power of god , as usually as actuall faith and profession of it is wrought in them ; as asses are made to speake with mans voice , and children in the womb leap for joy at the sensible prefence of one that speakes to their mother . these you joyn together , so that this is the comfort that you leave to parents when infants beleive , make profession of their faith , asses speak , and infants in the womb know a voyce and rejoyce upon hearing it , then their children may be sanctified and dying in infancy saved . but what spirit is mr blake possessed with that he so unbrotherlike perverts my words to make me odious ? i say that infants are sanctified by extraordinary power , not by ordinary means as hearing the word , doe i therefore make this unusual ? it may be done in every infant of a beleever for ought i say to the contrary . but you make it an extraordinary accident when you use this passage , both p. , & . extraordinary accidents make not an ordinary rule . 't is true i use the passage in both places , but do not in either make the extraordinary accident to be an infants sanctification , but in the one an infants profession of faith , as the very words shew , pag. . and in the other the extraordinary revelation , as is easie to be perceived by him that reads , pag. . of my examen . and thus have i answered with sect . . ch . . the fourteenth chapter ●●so of mr blakes book . sect. . chap. . mr. blake ●hargeth me of imposing this supposition on him , that he should strongly conceit this , that christ bid the apostles baptize all nations after the manner that the iewes did circumcise one nation , my meaning was that he conceived that as god appointed the jewes to circumcise parents professing faith and their infants ; so he bid the apostles baptize beleeving parents , and their infants : i did not intend to charge him with this conceit , as if he conceived that christ bid the apostles set up circumcision , as he seems pag. . to imagine , but that he conceived they were to baptize all nations . fathers and infants in like manner as the jewes circumcised fathers and their infants . and this i conceive still must bee his meaning , not knowing what other covenant , and covenant-initiating sacrament he could meane restrained to one nation , besides the covenant , gen. . and circumcision appointed to the jewes . but mr. blake tels me this was my calumny to say he would have the commission , mat. . . to be expounded by the precept of circumcision , gen. . hee mea●t the precept or commission ; matth. . . i answer , mr blake would have the word nations matth. . . to comprehend infants , and his reason is , because the word nation was so taken , when the covenant , and covenant-initiating sacrament was restrained to that our nation . now i appeale to any one whether in the commission . matth. . . yea or in the whole 〈…〉 word nation be taken as restrained to that one natio●● 〈…〉 commission was first limited , nor is there any menti●● 〈…〉 of covenant or covenant-initiating sacrament in 〈◊〉 whole chapter , nor a word that shewes that the word nation in the apostles commission comprehended infants . and therefore i could not divine more fairely then i did what mr blakes meaning should be in that obscure expression . but saith mr blake you are not at the paines to make it appea●● how the words of christ were to the apostles in elligible , if the word nation in this enlarged commission , must bee taken in my other sense , and latitude then it was in their former limited commission when the covenant and covenant-initiating sacrament was restrained to one nation . to this i answer , i took paines i think sufficient to shew how it must be understood in my examen , § . . and therefore i shew how it was intelligible to the apostles . many interpreters have expounded the word , 〈◊〉 that i know of expounded it by mat. . . the commission mar. . . is the same with mat. . . and so expo●●●● without running to mat. . . the other supposition 〈…〉 ●●ceived mr marshals argument relied on is , that the nation 〈…〉 jewes were discipled when circumcised . this mr blake saith , i put on him , but he disclaimes it . the truth is , i did not put it on mr blake , but mr marshall ; though the next words speak of mr blake : but not imputing to him the second , but the first supposition . as for mr mar. i do not find him disclaiming it . and for that inference that m. blake makes from my words , as if i conceived low thoughts of mr blake and mr marshall , because i say the conceit that making disciples , mat. . . is to be done by baptizing them , is so absurd that i presume none that hath any wit will entertain it , now it is as absurd to say , that the jewes were discipled when they were circumcised , and therefore i conceive mr blake and mr marshall have not any wit. but for this inference it is a farre fetched thing : i did not conceive the one so absurd as the other , nor doe yet , and therefore i might impute defect of wit to the entertainer of the one conceit , and yet not impute it to mr marshal and mr blake , for entertaining another conceit like it . mr blake excepts against me for saying these points had strong hold in his mind , that baptisme succeeds into the room , place , and use of circumcision ; and that the covenant of the gospell is all one with the covenant made with abraham : 〈…〉 used those words , that baptisme so succeeds circum●● 〈◊〉 therefore how could i know it to bee in his mind i answ●● 〈◊〉 it by words equipollent which hee useth as birth-priviledge , page . what is objected against one , concludes against both : circumcision and baptisme are therefore by the apostle promiscuously taken ; there being the same principall and maine end of both . and this is evidence enough for what i said . the other proposition he denies not to be in his mind . sect. . ch . . mr blake makes a digression concerning arguments drawn from analogy . and first whereas i had allowed for that which is naturall or morall in worship , an institution or command in the old testament as obligatory to christians : upon this mr blake tels me , there is the same reason and like liberty in arguing by analogy in positive as in morall precepts . to this i reply , if the meaning bee that there is like reason of proving morall precepts from the old testament as positive rites , it is most false and contrary to the th article of the church of england , but if it be 〈◊〉 ●●tood of the manner of proofe by analogy or resembla●● then i deny that wee have any liberty at all to argue from analogy or resemblance , to prove or make a dutie or command in morals or ceremonials , though i grant we may use analogy to inforce a duty before proved . for an argument to prove a thing to bee a morall dutie from the old testament , must bee by proving the same thing , then to have been morall as master cawdray and master palmer endeavour to prove one day in seven for a sabbath to bee morall and perpetuall , but an argument from analogy is from one thing to another , as like , for analogy or proportion is betweene , not the same but more things as like . as for the apostles arguing , cor. . . tim. . . the apostle doth not by ●are analogy conclude ministers maintenance , but from the lords ordinance , cor. . v. . which ordinance i take to be that matth. . . which ordinanc the apostle confirmes from common equity , which he proves b● diverse instances , from v. . to v. . so that the apostle doth no prove a morall duty by analogy between two different things , bu● from a generall maxime that the labourer is worthy of his reward proved by sundy instances , inferres a particular truth concerning ministers . the argument cor. . . . is to prove . that they which professe c●●t , may not partake of the things of idols , from this generall truth that they which joyn in the seruice of any god they hold communion with that god , and are one with those that worship that god this the apostle proves by instances in the christian , and jewish services . so that this argument is from a generall truth proved by an induction of instances . that matth. . . . is onely an instance to prove that sacrifice must give place to mercy : a ceremoniall to a moralll duty ; not an argument from meer analogy or resemblance of things different . but what ever arguing there be in morals , certaine it is that no argument is good from bare analogy in ceremonials , or meer positives of the jewes ; to prove , thus it was in such a rite of the jewes , therefore it must be so in such a rite of the christians , there 's no example of such arguing in the scriptures , and therefore i said rightly examen pag. . to me it is a dangerous principle upon which they goe that so argue , to wit , that in meer positive things ( such as circumcision and baptisme are ) we may frame an addition to gods worship , from analogy , or resemblance conceived by us betweene two ordinances ; whereof one is quite taken away without any institution gathered by precept or apostolicall example . master blake would knowe who they be that do so , i answer , mr marshall in his first argument , and five first conclusions , and virtuall command from circumcision ; master blake birth-priviledge pag. . and generally all that prove infant-baptisme , by infant-circumcision . for circumcision and baptisme , are meer positive things ; baptizing of infants is confessed not to have expresse institution gathered by expresse precept , or example in the new test : and that which is alleaged , is either expresse , or no precept , or example at all : and if it were to be gathered by consequence from institution , or example apostolicall in the new testament , without the helpe of the precept of circumcision there would be , for as much as it concernes my part , an end of the controversie : therefore it is clear , they that argue from circumcision to baptisme , doe frame an addition to gods worship , from analogy or resemblance conceived by them , between two ordinances : whereof one is quite taken away , without any institution gathered by precept , or apostolicall example . but saith master blake . it is not barely the analogy between circumcision and baptisme , by which we inforce the baptisme of infants , but the grounds of both circumcision and baptism . this is said , but when the grounds are required , what are they but the analogy between baptisme and circumcision , that they are like ; what 's the reason of the one , is the reason of the other : and therefore what is done in the one , is to be done in the other ? now whence is this arguing but barely from the likenesse , which makes an argument meerly from analogy . if the argument were drawn from some thing proper to baptisme it were another case , but being drawne from circumcision to baptisme , it is an argument meerly from analogy . if they rest not on this , let them lay aside this argument , and sticke to precept or apostolicall example in the new testament . to shew the danger of this way of arguing , i thus reasoned examen pag , . for if we may do it in one thing , why not in another ? where shall we stay ? they that read the popish expositors of their rituals do know , that this principle hath brought in surplice , purification of women , &c. that i mention not greater matters . i desire any learned man to set me downe a rule from gods word , how farre i may go in my conceived parity of reason , equity or analogy , where i must stay ; when it will be superstition and will-worship when not ; when my conscience may be satisfyed , when not . master blake in answer hereto , layes downe three rules . . when parity of reason or analogy , doth not institute any peece of worship , or the least part of the service of god but onely helpes to a right understanding of the nature , use , end , extent of that which is instituted . . when in our reasoning from analogy , from the right understanding of any inctitution , or ordinance , 〈◊〉 do not rest soly on the analogy that we find with other commands , but have our further reason for confirmation . . when the analogy holds full proportion in that for which it is brought , so that nothing can fairely be brought against the one , but may be also concluded against the other . to this i answer . that never a one of these rules is brought out of gods word . not the first , for there is neither declaration of such a rule , nor example to prove that rule . the proving of excommunicating of women from miriams shutting out of the camp , numb . . . is not a scripture collection , but a meer devise of men ; the argument against nonresidence from ezek. . . is good after other arguments , but without other proofe is not convincing : and it is not in meer positive things but morall . the argument of the apostle , cor. . . . is not from one positive rite to another , but from an ordinance of god agreeable to common equity in the old testament , to illustrate an ordinance in the new testament , about a morall duty of righteousnesse . the second and third rules are not set downe from any declaration or example in the scripture . i say these rules are very uncertaine , for no reason is given why they may not make a new worship , who may by their analogy extend it beyond the institution in the new testament yea , it will be alleaged by papists , and others , that when they appoint surplice , purification , organs , &c. they do not make a new worship , but adde circumstances to the ordinances of christ . yea , the second rule overthrowes all , for if we may not soly rest on the analogy ; why at all ? this is enough to shew that analogy hath no strength , that indeed it doth onely illustrate cannot prove ; what is an argument by analogy , but an argument a similt ? if analogy could prove , we might rest soly on it , without any other confirmation . it is true , many desire more arguments , but in truth if it be an argument that proves , we may rely on it soly though there be no other . the third rule likewise is uncertaine and vaine . for how shall we knowe when the analogy holds full propo●tion ? when nothing can be fairely brought against the one , but may be also concluded on the other ? when is the proportion full , if onely when omnia sunt paria ; this can never happen in analogies between the rites of moses and rites of christ ? if when there is a parity in many things , it will be uncertaine how many parityes will serve turne to make the proportion full ; what force there is in an analogy when there are more disparities : and so for a rule to knowe when a thing is fairly brought , whether the rule be to be taken from logicke , or the judgement of the learned . so that these rules are very uncertain . it is also uncertaine whether these rules be sufficient , whether there be no need of any more . for these rules will not exclude proofe of imparity of ministers , infant commuuion , &c by analogy . or if they do the same aberration from these rules that disproves the analogy for these ; will be incident to the analogy for infant-baptisme . we may say infant-communion , or imparity in the ministery is no more a new instituted worship , then infant baptisme ; they that alleage analogy for imparity of the clergy , and infant-communion rest not soly on it : it seems to be brought as fairely with as full proportion in the one as the other . so that i conclude , not onely with master rutherfurd proportions are weake proportions , but also that in these positive rites , and institutions they are no probations at all , but meer illustrations , and consequently the argument for infant-baptisme from the analogy of infant-circumcision is a meer nullity . the rest of the section containes nothing but wrong inferences from my words ; i distinguish between evangelicall promises and promises domesticall specially respecting abrahams family , if this distinction may passe then abrahams family had no evangelicall promises saith master blake , you make saith he , an opposition between them . but what ridiculous arguing is this ? it 's all one as to say , if gifts of grace and nature are distinguished , then they that have gifts of grace , can have no gifts of nature . those things that are not idem formaliter , or realiter , may be in eodem subjecto . i oppose them , he saith , but how ? not as contraries , but as disparata , which is rather a distinction then an opposition . because i say , circumcision signified that moses law was to be observed , gal. . . master blake excepts . you are ( it seems ) of mr blackwoods opinion , that saith , circumcision did not bring any grace to the jewes , but was rather a yoke or a curse . master blackwood hath or may answer for himself . mr. blakes inference from my words is a meer cavil . and that which he addes , that i make frequent use of bellarmines sophistry is a meer slaunder . that circumcision signified the promise of the land of canaan , i had it not from bellarmine , but if from any , rather from cameron cited by me exercit : pag. . or rather from gen. . . psal . . . this is enough in answer to that section . sect. . ch . . master blake accuseth me as not setting down his argument rightly , but the truth is , i set not downe the argument as it is in master blake , but as it was in master marshall , whose very words i alleadge , and that rightly . but master blake thinkes he formed it to better advantage ; from matth. . . mar. . . compared , i onely gather to that belong to christ , and to beare the name of christ , and to be a disciple of christ is one and the same thing . but by his leave , if he should meet with a punctuall respondent , he would and might deny his proofe . for all that he can prove from thence is , that the same persons that belong to christ , are disciples of christ ; but it is not true alwayes , quae eidem subjecto conveniunt sunt eadem formaliter . he that should say , he that receives my servant receives me ; he that receives one that belongs to me receives me ; though he speak both these of the same person , yet a servant , and one that belongs to him are not all one and the same thing : for there are other that belong to him , as wife , children , friends , besides servants . and indeed to belong to christ , and to be a disciple of christ , are not one and the same thing . to be a disciple of christ in all the places in the four evangelists and acts of the apostles , signifyes no other then one that professed christ to be his master , and followed his doctrine , as the disciples of john , the pharisees , and others did follow their doctrine ; but many belong to christ , yet uncalled , all that his father hath given unto him , the angels that are his ministers belong to him , and yet cannot in the scripture acception be termed christs disciples . but i assume saith master blake , that infants are of the number of those who as disciples in christs account do belong to him . matth. ●● . . i said the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes not alwayes an infant , for i●●rus daughter , though twelve yeare old is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 marke . . . and yet that age might be a patterne of humility ▪ seldome are children of that age ambitious as the disciples , though they be oft impatient . i said further that matth. . . is not meant of a little child in age , and that 〈◊〉 proved from v. . ● . . but saith master blake , he is indeed a child in understanding that doth not see that your ●●●ference to v. . . is wholly against you for little child v. . . is taken for such a one as in age is a little child , else the speech would be ●●ept . but mr blake should have ●●●●ded my words better , i did not parallel the word [ little child ] v. . with [ little child ] v. but the phrase [ one such little child ] with the phrases , v. . one that is converted , and made as a little child . v. . one that humbles himselfe as a little child v. . one of those little ones that beleeve in him . but saith master blake , luke . . it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is true , it is so . neverthelesse beza notes thus , sed & pro 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hunc puerulum , fortassis legendum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hujusmodi puerulum : & grotius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ut apud matthaeum , quomodo & hic syrus interpretatur . tale est : amor omnibus idem . that in matth. . . a little child must be meant of a little child in affection , seems plaine to me by the terme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 such a one , that it is not limited to that little child , the term . shews which is as much as quempiam any one . and me thinkes the meaning of the words should be thus , whosoever should receive such a one as is as meane and low as a little child receiveth me , as that which followes makes me conceive . for he that is lesse among you , that is , though he were as meane as a little child , shall be great . but were it granted that it were meant of a little child in age , how doth it follow that such a one is there a disciple ? this , if any must be the proofe : he that is received in christs name , is a disciple . a little child may be received in christs name ergo a little child is a disciple ▪ but of this argument , i deny the major ; a person might be received in christs name , who was not a disciple , as those that did miracles in christs name ▪ and yet followed not christ , luke . . but if it were so that it could be proved , that the terme disciple is any where given to an infant , ( which neither master blake from matth. . . nor master marshall from acts . . can ever do ) yet it is certaine that a disciple matth. . . is such a one as is made by preaching the gospell , as is manifest from mar. . . john . ● . and i wonder that those very men that do in effect sometime confesse this is not meant of infants , when they answer the antipaedobaptists objection from matth. . . as mr marshall pag. of his sermon , it is said indeed , that they taught and baptized , and no expresse ●●ntion of any other , that yet they should by such strained and forced inferences go about to draw a command from matth. . . for baptizing infants , as if they might be called there disciples , contrary to the constant use of the word throughout the new testament , and their own confessionels where . sect. ch . . master blake blames me for putting his reason from isai . as an argument by it selfe in my exercitation . but he might know my exercitation set downe most of the arguments as they were urged in the conference with me , and so was the reason from isai . . urged in that conference as an argument by it selfe , to my best remembrance , however it were after disposed in the birth-priviledge . but saith master blake , the question here is not ( as after your manner you mistake it ) whether this text proves infant-baptisme , but whether it gives any intimation , that infants in the dayes of the gospell be any members of the church-visible , or intitled to any priviledges of the covenant , as christs disciples . i reply , the proving of that intimation tended to prove infant-baptisme , and therefore those words were alleaged for infant-baptisme ; which was that i said , not a whit mistaking the question . now sith master blake confesseth that the words must needs be allegoricall , why doth he expound the terme sons and daughters of infants , and tell us that their carriage of their little ones must be understood no otherwise then of the accesse of the gentiles with their infants to the church of christ . for if the carriage , and noursing v. . be allegoricall meant of perswasions , exhortations , and such like acts , infants could not be thus carried and so mr blakes allegationis but an empty sound . ch. . master blake goes about to justifie his speech that he used in his birth-priviledge , pag. . that the precedant is an household . he that followeth the precedent , must baptize housholds . this speech i said , i marvaile much at it , and that it is very absurd , that i say no worse of it . master blake tels me . i expresse not the reason of so much marvaile . i answer the terme wherefore , with the words following expresse this reason plainely , sith as i said before in housholds were infidels , if an houshold be the precedent to be followed ; and he that followeth the precedent must baptize housholds without any other qualification ; then when he baptizeth the beleeving master , he must baptize the unbeleeving servant , wife , &c. for they are of the houshold . master blake . if you had any worse to say , i wonder that you had not spoke it , your best friends i beleeve will say that you have sufficiently shewed your selfe absurd in language . sure master blake knowes that a speech may be worse censured then by terming it very absurd , i might have called it sophisticall , deceitfull , and that had beene worse . my best friends can finde no abusive language of any mans person , their speeches or arguments i censure in no more absurd language then usually schollers do , and particularly master gataker doth doctor ames , and voetius as i have shewed in this apology above § . . master blake addes , i onely say some more learned then i , as learned as you have denied my words to be either absurd or heterodox . be it so ; yet affection may blinde their eyes . but let us examine the speech . i reasoned thus , if the precedent to be followed be a houshold , then those of the houshold are to be baptized either because of the houshold ; if this be said , then the infidell wife is to be baptized because of the houshold , or because they professe the faith ; and then the precedent is not a houshold , but a professor of faith . to this master blake , for full answer i say , that wife and servant , as wife and servant , are in a capacity for baptisme : if any wife and servant were in those housholds they were baptized ; else the scripture would not have said the whole family was baptized . it is sufficient that scripture mentioning baptisme of whole housholds , excepts none from a capacity of baptisme . i reply , in that which he cals a full answer , there is no answer at all to my reason ; for he neither denyes my distinction to be sufficient , nor doth he tell us which member he will choose in the dilemma , nor how he will avoid the consequent upon his choice . and therefore his learned friends , though they were ten times learneder then my selfe , yet in this are mistaken in acquitting either the former speech , of this answer , from absurdity . but let us consider what he sayes . it is sufficient , that scripture mentioning baptisme of whole housholds , excepts none from a capacity of baptisme . i reply : is this sufficient to make the baptizing of housholds the precedent , that is the pattern by which we may now baptize infants , because infants are not excepted ? then neither are infidels excepted there ; nor naturall fooles or idiots of ripe yeares , and so are to be the precedent of baptizing . but wife and servant as wife and servant , are in a capacity for baptisme . answer . it is not true , that wife and servant as wife and servant are in a capacity for baptisme , if [ ●s ] betaken with reduplication , and [ capacity ] of actuall right , but as they are professors of faith . but if it be understood that , 〈◊〉 wife , that is though wife , and capacity in respect of future possibility , then it is true of an infidell , of any man shall we therefore make an infidell , or a man simply the precedent of baptizing ? i said there 's no reason why it should not be laid as well , that baptizing samaria , acts . . the . acts . . all judea matth. . ; should be the precedent as baptizing of housholds , acts . true saith master blake , if semaria be converted , all judaea is taken for some considerable numbers out of every part of judaea . so say i , the terme houshold is taken acts . for those of the house that being of growne yeares professed the faith . and so there 's no precedent there for baptizing an infant . chapt. . mr blake passing over all that i say to mr marshals second argument , till pag. . concerning it tels me , that i might have given mr marshal leave to explain his own argument . and and i tell mr blake that so i did , and then did my part to shew what was faulty in it , so effectually that i conceive in his defence he hath quitted it , and put another in its room , as weak as it ; as i shewed above . but mr blake thinkes it is sufficient to make the argument good , that infants of beleevers have an accesse in gods ordinary way of dispensation , whilst infants : here is a new phraseology , which serves for nothing but to puzzle ; there is no face of an argument in it , and therefore i let it passe . to shew , how uncertaine the argument is from from matth. . . for infant-baptisme i produced pis●a●ors reasons to prove that it is not cleare they were infants that were brought to christ . these reasons i did not stick to , and so need not own what is contradictory to my exposition of matth. . . before . the second exception i took to the argument from matth. . . i delivered onely doubtfully , and yet i conceived mr marshals reason not cogent , for somewhat that christ meant to reach by that embleme of a little child could not be well resembled by a sheep , for though meeknesse might , yet not d●ciblenesse : i might have added that the similitude or embleme of a sheep , had not so much decorum in it . but i stick not to that exposition of not including those infants , as conceiving not from mr marshals or mr blakes reason , but from the circumstances of the thing , that christ intended some extraordinary blessing to them , and declaration concerning them . as for mr blakes glosse he puts upon me , i disclaimed it ; it is his owne mistake , not my conceit : that those infants , or infants of beleevers in infancy have no interest in christ , but are without covenant of promise , without god , without hope . but for that i said ; thirdly , that there is no certainty , onely conjecture that they were infants of beleevers , i avow it . mr blake averres a certainty beyond conjecture , because christ was minister of the circumcision , rom. . . sent to the lost sheep of the house of israel , mat. . . carried himselfe otherwise to the canaanitish woman in behalfe of her daughter , verse . . if these had had no other interest , christ would have been as facile to others as to them . i reply , christ was minister of the ci●●●mcision , was sent to the lost sheep of the house of israel , yet cured the servant of the centurion , the samaritan leper , the daughter of the syrophenician . he carried himselfe strangely at first to that woman , to provoke her faith , and he pleaded against her not that shee was not a beleever , but that shee was a canaanite ; if this reason prove any thing it is , that the childrens parents were jewes , but that proves not they were beleevers ; few of them beleeving on christ , iohn . . against the fourth thing i say of those children that were brought to christ , that the speech [ of such is the kingdome of heaven ] is meant of the kingdome of glory , and that this is not common to all infants of beleevers ; mr blake excepts that it is meant of the visible church , and and of all infants of beleevers as such : now on this hinge turns the fifth exception also , and so the answer to the whole argument i determine the kingdome of heaven to be meant of the kingdome of glory , and i thus prove it . the kingdome of god must be understood marke . , as it is verse . and lu. . . as verse and matth. . . as it is in both those , this i prove , because our saviour from their estate inferres a likenesse to them in others for the same estate ; but marke . , luke . . can be understood of no other then the kingdome of glory , the proposition being false , being understood of the visible church ; many proud men entering therein ▪ as simon magus , diotrephes , &c. ergo it must be understood of the kingdome of glory . from this that our saviour directs the speech marke . . luke . . to his disciples who were already in the visible church , therefore the requiring a further condition to the kingdome of god shewes he meant it of the kingdome of glory . the speech marke . . luke . . is like mat. . , . but there it is meant of the kingdome of glory , ergo so here . deodate on matth. . so farre are you deceived in thinking that children , by reason of their weakenesse and contemptible qualitie ; are unworthy to be presented unto me : that contrariwise no body is capable of my kingdom unles he be first by the spirit of regeneration brought into a spirituall estate to be like a little child in the order of nature . the new annot : on the bible on matth. . . yee have no reason to blame them for bringing children to me ; for they may be such as have interest to the kingdome of heaven , as well as others of ripe yeares : and , unlesse yee be like them , ye shall never come there , ch . . . but saith master blake , christ had never been so much displeased with his disciples for forbidding them , seeing their election and justification was to the disciples wholly unknown , they had a present visible title , such as the apostles ought to have knowne . i answer , the reason of christs anger was their hindering him in his designe , not the knowledge they had of their present visible title : this is but a dreame . i added further , that christs action in this was extraordinary , and so no ordinary rule for baptizing by the publike ministery . mr blake would have me consider how this can stand with that i said before , that they that brought the infants might do it without faith in christ , as the messiah upon the fame of his miracles , and account that he was a prophet . i answer , there is no opposition , they might conceive him to be but a prophet , not the messiah : and yet christ might act as an extraordinary prophet , and as the messiah , mr blake sayes , this act of christ is no direct preced●● for baptisme , but for church-priviledges of which infants are capable . marke this speech , if [ but ] be adversative , then master blake grants that infants are capable of church-priviledges , not of baptisme , which overthrowes all his dispute ; but the truth is , this thing was done to these infants , not by reason of any 〈◊〉 title they had , or to enter them into any outward church-priviledge , but to accomplish by his blessing , their interest in the invisible kingdome of god by election . master blake in the close of this chapter sayes , if it were true , that padobaptisme had no more warrant then i conceive , yet 〈◊〉 not will-worship , but a misapplication of an instituted ordinance to a person . but i aske master blake , whether infant-communion were not will worship ? whether baptizing of bells were not will-worship ? and yet these are but misapplications of an instituted ordinance to a wrong subject . we have the word will-worship but once , col. . . and if it be taken in the worser sense , as protestant divines hitherto have done ( though lately doctor hammond at oxford hath written a booke to prove it to be taken in the better part for a commendable thing as a free-well offering ) and have made it the sinne of the pharises matth. . . and especially non-conformists , who have made every invented ceremony will-worship , then much more infant-baptisme being worship it selfe , if it be not instituted , must be will worship . chapt. . master blake examines what i say , examen pag. . about gods sealing . master marshall spake of gods sealing the baptized ; i said , god seales not to every one that is baptized , but onely to true beleevers : for his sealing , is the confirming of his promise ; but god promiseth righteousnesse to none but true beleevers . master blake answers . you acknowledge baptisme to be is its nature a seale of the righteousnesse of faith , and to be of god , therefore in it god must seale to every baptized person , or else you must say they are not baptized . i reply : i acknowledge baptisme of professours of faith to be of god , though they be not true beleevers : and i acknowledge baptisme in its nature to be a seale of the covenant of god , but not a seale actuall , but aptitudinall ; that is , all right baptism is in its nature apt to seale , as a garland hung out is to signify wine to be ●old , yet actually the one signifies so onely to the intelligent , and the other onely to true beleevers . and god never seales actually till a person be a beleever . i said ; as for the sealing by god upon condition persons ag●ize the covenant , it is but a notion ; the scripture makes not gods promise in the covenant of grace conditionall in that sense . for gods promise is for those he enters into covenant with , that he will put his lawes in their 〈◊〉 and in their mindes will 〈◊〉 them , heb. . . master blake answers . if you 〈◊〉 this of the sacraments as the words beare , then according to your opinion none ought to be baptized , but 〈◊〉 in whose heart the law in wrote . i answer him , by gods sealing i doe not meane every right administration of baptisme ; for though that be in its nature apt to seale the graces of the covenant , yet actually gods seales not but when it is administred to a beleever . it may be called a right act of the administratour according to gods appointment , but not gods sealing . i call gods sealing onely when either by his spirit or oath , or outward rite , he assures his grace , as by circumcision to abraham , rom. . . he appointed ismael to be circumcised , but did not seale to him righteousnesse by faith . the inference mr blake makes from my words , as if i held none baptizable , but those in whose heart gods law is written , hath no colour , for i do not make the administratours baptizing , or , sith they will have it so called , sealing , , to be gods sealing . god appoints the word to be preached to many hypocrites , and the preacher that assures them of the promises doth it by gods appointment , yet god doth not assure the promises to them . i do not make him onely baptizable to whom god seales , but him whom christ appoints to be baptized , whether god seales to him or no. master blake urgeth me with bellarmines argument ; of the sacraments be seales of grace , they are often false , and god should beare witnesse to a lye , and tels of the speech of some that have said , that this argument is unanswerable ; unlesse we confesse that the seale of the sacrament is conditionall . i like not to call the sacrament a conditionall seale , for that which seales doth assure , and supposeth the condition : in my apprehension , that which is called conditionall sealing is not sealing but offering , or propounding , or representing : but about this i will not contend . yet in that sense i yeeld it to be a seale actually , i yeeld it to be a seale onely to beleevers , but i deny that because the sacrament is in its nature a seale of grace , god doth seale alwayes when it is rightly administred . the nature of it is to be a seale aptitudinall , not actuall ; and so it is easie to answer bellarmines argument , without crossing my speeches . but be the sacraments s●ales conditionall or absolute , actuall or aptitudinall , what is this to prove that god seales conditionally in this sense , as if god left it to mans liberty , to whom he had sealed , to agnize or recognize that sealing , or to free themselves , if they please , and so nullify all ; yet so as to afford them a while the favour , and priviledge of being in covenant with him , which master marshall i conceived meant by his conditionall sealing , and i find not in his answer a deniall of it to be his meaning . master blake excepts against a speech of mine , in which i say , that all the sacraments of the jewes are abrogated circumstance , and substance in whole and in part : and askes me . is circumcision of heart abrogated ? is all spirituall meat and drinke in sacraments abrogated ? is christ himselfe abrogated ? i answer , no : but withall say , these are idle questions as not crossing my speech , unlesse he can prove circumcision of the heart , spirituall meat and drinke , and christ himselfe to be sacraments . sect. . master blake would acquit this speech , gods covenant of grace is common to elect and reprobates from symbolizing with arminians , by producing the speeches of pareus , and mr ball who onely say reprobates are in covenant with god externally , or god externally contracts with them , which is another thing . gods covenant of grace , is his promise of grace ; and of this truly , master marshall in his defence page . multitudes were baptized , to whom god yet never gave saving graces , and therefore never promised them ; for had he made a promise , he would have performed it . master blake makes the nature of a covenant an agreement betweene two parties , and sayes , a promise or tender without consent , is no covenant . how then do children covenant at baptisme , or enter into covenant who yeeld no consent ? he saith , gods tender of himselfe to his people is called his covenant . gen. . . . but he doth not rightly call that a tender , which was more then a tender to wit a promise . then he objects against himselfe , that if gods covenant be such as he will not breake , jerem. . . and he hath promised to put his lawes in their inward parts , then they all to whom he makes covenant must be elect . i answer saith he , if we take the words exactly , as in the letter of the prophecy they run . then all ministery is beaten downe , and all edification ceases . but this is litem lite resolvere . the contraremon strantes when they urge this place for effectuall grace , understand the words exactly . but how will master blake understand them ? i have looked over almost two leaves in answer to this in master blake , and cannot tell how he will understand them ; nor finde i that he gives any direct answer to the objection , but wanders in impertinences . nor knowe i how he can answer the objection without evervating the argument for effectuall grace and perseverance in it . and the not teaching one another there spoken of is meant of that obscure teaching which was under the law. sect. . he intimates that i have misreported master marshall , but master marshall hath not himselfe denyed the sense i conceived of his conditionall sealing by god to infants , the words are plaine enough in his sermon , pag. . where he talkes of gods covenant , and sealing , and christs suretiship , more like corvinus , or the arminans , then the scripture or contraremonstrants . master blake accuseth me of joyning with independents , and that they will have none church members , but elect , and i no church but that which is invisible . but i beleeve he wrongs both me and them ; me i am sure , for i alwayes teach a visible profession sufficient for chuch-membership , though i deny that every visible professour is in the covenant of grace ; and when they will have reall saints church members , they meane not onely such as are so before god , but such as are so in the judgement of the church though i thinke they are more rigid then they should be in their tenet , yet i thinke master blake wrongs them in this imputation . ch. . i told mr marshall that his speech of anabaptists as condemning infants as out of the state of grace , condemning all the infants of the whole church of christ as having nothing to doe with the covenant of grace , till proved by some of their testimonies i should take to be but a false accusation . mr blake tel●me master marshall for a testimony needs look no further then th●●op of your leafe , where you say infant-baptisme is a corruption of the ordinance of baptisme ; if infants be not only held from baptisme , but their baptisme is also a corruption of that ordinance , and there is no such thing as covenant-holinesse to give them any ti●le or interest , then they are out of covenant , strangers to the promises of god , and so the doom eph. . . lyes heavy upon them . how frivolous a justification is this of an expresse and deep accusation of men of a rash and bloody sentence as condemning all the infants of the whole church of christ , as having nothing to do with the covenant of grace ; me thinks a man that would accuse so expressely so many persons , and those christian brethren not to be contemned of so deep , so passion-provoking a charge enough to stirre up magistrates and parents to expell and destroy such men , should produce better evidence for such a crimination , then such a farre fetcht consequence as mr blake here brings , to make it good is neither my name nor peace more tenderly regarded by master blake then upon such light inference to accuse me so deeply ? i had said to mr marshall that if the covenant of grace bee rightly understood , mr marshall excludes infants as much from the covenant of grace as i doe . as for mr blake not only page of his birth-priviledge , but also page of his answer to my letter , he expressely maintaines that the birth-right he maintaines as a fruit from the covenant of free-grace to all in the faith , and their seed only entitles to outward priviledges . how doth this stand with that which he asserts chap. . sect . . of his answer to my letter , page . that infants of beleevers have salvation if they dye in their infancy , by vertue of the covenant ? for if the covenant onely entitle to outward priviledges how doth it entitle to salvation ? so that to speak plainly , mr blake doth but play fast and loose , sometimes asserting a certainty of salvation from the covenant , sometimes onely a right to outward priviledges ; and yet he and mr marshall stick not to declaim against anabaptists , for not assuring salvation to the deceasing infants of beleevers from that covenant which mr marshall will not assert , pag. . as it is a covenant of saving grace to be made to beleevers and their naturall seed , and mr blake saith , onely entitles to outward priviledges . but we say , saith master blake that all infants and men of yeers for ought that we can find from any scripture grounds are utterly lost that want all right of baptisme . he might say they are in danger to be lost by reason of originall corruption , not for want of right to baptisme ; but to say they are utterly lost is more then mr blake hath ground to affirme . i have often shewed that a right to baptism is from the command of christ , not from such covenant holinesse as mr blake asserts : salvation comes from gods election and christs redemption . it is a meer slander , and a groundlesse crimination , wherewith mr blake chargeth me , that the position he produceth out of my book , or any other he can produce doth inferre , that all the infants of the whole church of christ have nothing to doe with the covenant of grace . i challenge him , with mr marshall and mr blakes seconds mr calamy and mr vines , if they can to make that charge good ; or else let mr blake and mr marshall retract it . as for mr blakes conclusion , i conceive his prot●station makes him deservedly the object of pitty , his motions carry a sting in the tayl , to wit a false accusation , from which i doubt not but i have acquitted my selfe by this writing . the elogy the worthy member of the house of commons bestowes on me , and the unrighteous censure of my learned namelesse acquaintance i value not ; books as meats relish differently with different palates , pro captu lectoris habent sua fata libelli : this apollogy will state me , and my writing better in their thoughts ▪ if they can & will understand the truth . if not , the same spirit that hath enabled me to beare greater burthens , i trust will enable me to bear these hard censures . i hope that i shall not be wanting to the overthrow of any errors , according to my ability ; paedobaptisme i am more assured then ever is a great corruption , founded as now it is taught on very great errours , and of any service i suppose i can doe to god it is one of the chiefe which i ought to apply my selfe to , that it may be cleared to be an errour . i bear as much love and reverence to m. blake as ever , he is not despised by me though his errours be freely censured . i aimed not either in the former or in this latter writing at any grievance to him , and should be sorry this controversie should make a separation between us ▪ though i find by experience much estrangednes in many of my former acquaintance from me . and for encountring with mr blake for the truths sake i held my selfe necessitated to it by reason of mr vines and m. calamy their former , and latter , as i still conceive , inconsiderate plaudite . finis . errata . page . line . above , read about . p. . l. . sticks , r. strikes . p. . l. . and , r. but. p. . l. . gen. . r. gen. . p. . l. . berma●aus , r. be●mannus . l. . . r. . p. . l. . meerly , r. merry . l. . iannes , . iames. l. . r. upon what . p. . l. . r. that they who . l. . to , r. doe . p. . l. . marshall , r. ball. p. . l. . . r. . p. . l. . artificer , r. artifice . mind , r. mend . p. . l r. will be . l. . r. are the. p. . l. . r. examen . p. . . . p. . l. dele and m. blake . &c. p. . l. . which , r. this . p. . l. . r. inconsideretenes which . p. . l. . dele it . p. . l. . r. either out . p. . l. . . r. . l. . . l. . p. . l. . r. ho●se in . p. co . l. them , . infants . p. . l. . see , r. set . l. . dele first . p. . l. . cuts , r. cut . p. . l. . r. the thing . p. . l . r. that they . p. . l. . r. positive rites as morall precepts . p. . l. ● . dele it . p. . l. . margine . . r. . p. . l. . p. . l. . precedent , r. subject . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e §. . of the occasion of writing this apology . §. . of the intention of the author upon that occasion . §. . of the necessity and seasonablenes of publishing the two treatises about infant-baptisme . §. . of freedome from publishing the two treatises contra●y to engagement , with a declaration of the authors proceedings therein . §. . o● the clearing the author of the two treatises from scornfulnesse in writing them : of my censure of m. thomas goodwins handling this point , and of all writers about col●s . ▪ . of the exposition i give of colos ▪ . confessed to be right by mr marshall himselfe . §. . of the clearing the author of the examen from either justifying the anabaptists in 〈◊〉 , or condemning the godly , and grave nonconformists in england . §. . of t●e clearing of the author of the two treatises from va●nting and challenging in the composing and publishing the treatises . §. . of the clearing the author o● the two treatises from sophistry in them , whereby occasion is taken to vindicate the treatises in many of the chie●e things contained in them . §. . of the meaning of master marshals second conclasion , the words in the d●rect●ry . [ the promise is made to beleevers and their seed ] and the doctrine therein delivered , disavowed by mr marshall and mr. geree . §. . of the distinction of inward and outward covenant , and that it can stand master marshall in no stead , but to shew his tr●f●ing , and equivocating in his first argument , and two first conclusions , and of m. marshal● mistake of my opinion . . of master marshal● false and most unjust charge that i carry the socinian plot through my examen and exercitation . §. . of m. marshals unjust charge of me as itching after new opinions , and particularly about rebaptization and receiving the lords supper afore baptism . §. . of alleadging authors against their mind , particular mr daniel rogers , m. b●ll , chamter , aretius , and beza . cor. . . §. . of master marshal's unjust charging anabaptists , with a bloody sentence , concondemning all the infants of beleevers as having nothing to doe with the covevenant of grace ; his imputing to me as if i held that they all belong actually to the kingdome of the devill , no more promise for them then for children of turks , their actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the devill . a large disq●●isition of rom. . . &c. wherein is shewed that the ingraffing there is into the invisible church by election and giving faith , and that it p●ove● not intant-baptisme . §. . of m. marshals unjust charge against me as ●arkning his arguments , and casting fi●th in the face of the assembly . § . of mr marshals untrue charge against me , as if i rested on grotius in setting down the tenent of antiquity upon occasion of which the tenent of antiquity is again examined , my judgment of their doctrine vindicated , mr. marshals new all●gations answered , and my diligence to find out their tenets manifested . § . of my opinion about excommunication , church-government , the admission unto all ordinances , my former conformity , alleaged to alienate mens minds from me and my writings . § . of the vanity of mr ley's vaunt concerning the deadly wound given to my cause , and the contrary demonstrated by a briefe going through the principall points about this argument , as they have hitherto been disputed . as about acts . . rom. . . cor. . . colos . . . matth. . . acts , . matth. . . &c. baptisme and the rite of eating bread and drinking wine through old ●ites among the iewes yet used to another end , and after another rule by christians . the command confessed to be the formal reason of circumcision by mr marshall . circumcision a priviledge proper to the jewish church state . no command about the iewes sacraments now in force . infants not disciples , as matth. . . is meant . baptizing housholds inferres not infant-baptisme . we have no evidence for judgement of charity concerning infants , nor is a judgement of charity to be our rule in adminstering baptisme . § . of master hassey his pretended satisfactory answer to my exerci●ation . § . the epilogue of this apology concerning the reason of the enlargement of it , the authors present estate and future intentions . notes for div a -e § , . the occasion of this postscript . § . of mr. calamys and m. vines their wrong judgement of the dispute , mr. blakes book , and my discussing the point . §. . they that deny infant-baptisme need not teach that infants perish . § . of my censure of master blakes producing gal , . for the birth priviledge . §. . or the necessity of my taking paines in my examen to find out the meaning of mr. marshals second conclusion by reason of the ambig●ity of his expressions . §. . of the corinthians doubt . cor. , . cor . . is not meant of instrumentall sanctification and federall holinesse . §. . of m blak●s m●sallegation of gal. . . which was the text he chose for his birth-priviledge . § . that p● . . is meant of the church invisible . §. . of precedents for womens receiving the lords supper . §. . to say that god hath promised to be the god of every believer and his uncurall seed is a new gospell . §. . or mr ruthersurds & mr blakes opinion about holinesse of a chosen nation , & mediate an cestors profession intitling to infant-baptisine , & the independents advantage in this point . §. . of the word [ nations ] mat. . . how to be taken . §. . of m. rutherfurds and mr blakes and mine opinion concerning the rule to know who are baptizable . §. . about two suppositions ascribed by m● to mr marshal and mr blake in my examen page . §. . about arguments drawn from analogy in positive rites and their invalidity : and the insufficiency of m. blakes rules . §. . that mr blake hath not proved that infants are disciples from mat. . . nor pertinently alleaged . isai . . §. . of baptizing housholds & my censure of mr blakes speech concerning it . §. . about mat. . that by the kingdome of heaven is meant the kingdome of glory . §. . that god seales not to every person that is rightly baptized , that his covenant of grace belongs onely to the elect , that his covenant is effectuall , and leaves it not to mans liberty to include or exclude himself . of mr blakes unjust crimmination of me as putting the children of beleevers out of the covenant of grace , and the epilogue of this postscript . a serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy wherein these six propositions are asserted. . that some swearing is lawful. . that some promissory oaths are lawful. . that a promissory oath of allegiance and due obedience to a king is lawful. . that the king in his realm, is the onely supreme governour over all persons. . that the king is the governour of the realm, as well in all spiritual or ecclesiastical things, or causes, as temporal. . that the jurisdictions, priviledges, preeminences, and authorities in that oath, may be assisted and defended. by john tombes b.d. tombes, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing t ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy wherein these six propositions are asserted. . that some swearing is lawful. . that some promissory oaths are lawful. . that a promissory oath of allegiance and due obedience to a king is lawful. . that the king in his realm, is the onely supreme governour over all persons. . that the king is the governour of the realm, as well in all spiritual or ecclesiastical things, or causes, as temporal. . that the jurisdictions, priviledges, preeminences, and authorities in that oath, may be assisted and defended. by john tombes b.d. tombes, john, ?- . , [ ] p. printed by henry hills, living in aldersgate-street next door to the sign of the peacock, london : [ ] publication date from wing. caption title on p. reads: the oath of supremacy as it is in the statute i. eliz. cap. i. reproduction of the original in the harvard university library. eng loyalty oaths -- england -- early works to . allegiance -- early works to . great britain -- kings and rulers -- early works to . a r (wing t ). civilwar no a serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy: wherein these six propositions are asserted. . that some swearing is lawful. . tombes, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - andrew kuster sampled and proofread - andrew kuster text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a serious consideration of the oath of the kings supremacy : wherein these six propositions are asserted . . that some swearing is lawful . . that some promissory oaths are lawful . . that a promissory oath of allegiance and due obedience to a king is lawful . . that the king is his realm , is the onely supreme governour over all persons . . that the king is the governour of the realm , as well in all spiritual or ecclesiastical things , or causes , as temporal . . that the jurisdictions , priviledges , preeminences , and authorities in that oath , may be assisted and defended . by john tombes b. d. prov. . . my son fear thou the lord , and the king : and meddle not with them that are given to change . london , printed by henry hills , living in aldersgate-street next door to the sign of the peacock . to the christian readers . being by special providence brought hither upon some occasions of mine own , and finding many persons of different perswasions scrupling the taking of the oath of supremacy now beginning to be urged , by reason of their unacquaintance with it through the long disuse of it ; by various conferences i convinced sundry of them , that the end and matter of the oath was not such as they imagined : whereupon some persons tender of the publique peace , and the liberties of those doubting persons , who still remained unsatisfied , earnestly pressed me to draw up something in writing , tending to the elucidation of this doubt : which i was unwilling to do , being absent from mine own books and collections , and hoping to have staid here less time then i am now necessitated to do : yet the instant pressure hath drawn from me this writing , though short and indigested , it being conceived useful in this juncture of time , wherein if i be offered on the sacrifice and service of your faith , i joy and rejoyce with you all , as being studious not how to have dominion over your faith , but to be a helper of your joy . for which and i crave your prayers , who am , london oct. . . your brother and servant in christ , john tombes , the oath of supremacy as it is in the statute . eliz. cap. . i a. b. do utterly testifie and declare in my conscience , that the queens highness is the only supreme governor of this realm , and of all other her highness dominions and countreys , as well in all spiritual or ecclesiastical things or causes , as temporal ; and that no forreign prince , person , prelate , state or potentate hath , or ought to have any iurisdiction , power , superiority , preheminence , or authority ecclesiastical or spiritual , within this realm ; and therefore i do utterly renounce and forsake all foreign iurisdictions . powers , superiorities and authorities , and do promise that from henceforth i shall bear faith and true allegiance to the queens highness , her heirs and lawful successors , and to my power shall assist and defend all iurisdictions , priviledges , preheminencies and authorities , granted or belonging to the queens highness , her heirs and successors , or united and annexed to the imperial crown of this realm . so help me god , and by the contents of this book . the proviso in the statute of . eliz. cap. . provided also , that the oath expressed in the said act , made in the said first year , shall be taken and expounded in such form as is set forth in an admonition annexed to the queens majesties injunctions , published in the first year of her majesties reign ; that is to say , to confess and acknowledge in her majesty , her heirs and successors , none other authority than that was challenged , and lately used by the noble king henry the eighth , and king edward the sixth , as in the said admonition more plainly may appear . the admonition annexed to the queens injunctions . the queens majesty being informed , that in certain places of this realm , sundry of her native subjects , being called to ecclesiastical ministery in the church , be by sinister perswasion , and perverse construction induced to finde some scruple in the form of an othe which by an act of the last parliament , is prescribed to be required of divers persons , for the recognition of their allegiance to her majesty , which certainly neither was ever ment , ne by any equity of words or good sence , can be thereof gathered : would that all her lovyng subjects should understand , that nothing was , is , or shall be ment or intended by the same othe , to have any other duty , allegiance , or bonde required by the same othe , then was acknowledged to be due to the most noble kynges of famous memory , kyng henry the viii . her majesties father , or kyng edward the sixth , her majesties brother . and further her majesty forbyddeth all manner her subjects to give ear or credit to suche perverse and maliciouse persons , which most sinifferly and maliciously labour to notify to her loving subjects , how by the words of the sayde othe , it may be collected the kings or queens of this realm , possessours of the crowne , may challenge aucthority and power of ministrie of divine offices in the churche , wherein her said subjectes be much abused by such evyl disposed persons . for certainly her majesty neither doth : ne ever wyll challenge any other aucthority , than that was challenged and lately used by the sayde noble kinges of famous memorye , king henry the eight , and kynge edward the sixt , which is and was of ancient time due to the imperial crowne of this realm . that is under god , to have the soverainty and rule over all maner persons born within these her realms , dominions , and countries , of what estate , either ecclesiastical or temporal soever they be , so as no other forrain power shall or ought to have any superioritie over them . and if anye person that hath conceived anye other sence of the fourm of the sayde othe , shall accept the same othe with this interpretation , sence , or meaning , her majestie is well pleased to accept every such in that behalf , as her good and obedient subjects , and shall acquit them of all maner penalties conteyned in the said act against such as shall peremptorily , or obstinately refuse to take the same othe . the . article professed in the church of england . the kings majesty hath the chief power in his realm of england , and other his dominions , unto whom the chief government of all estates of this realm , whether they he ecclesiastical or civil , in all causes doth appetain , and is not , nor ought to be subject to any forrain jurisdiction : where we attribute to the kings majesty the chief government , by which titles we understand the mindes of some standerous folks to be offended , we give not to our prince the ministring either of gods word , or of the sacraments : the which thing , the injunctions also , sometime set forth by elizabeth our ( late ) queen , do most plainly testifie , but that onely prerogative , which we see to have been given to all godly princes in holy scriptures by god himself , that is that they should rule all estates and degrees committed to their charge by god , whether they be ecclesiastical or temporal , and restrain with the civil sword the stubborn , and evil doers . the oath of supremacy briefly considered , and the lawfulness of taking it asserted . it is questioned , whether the oath of the kings being acknowledged supreme governour in all causes , according to the statute . eliz. may be lawfully taken ? to which i answer affirmatively , and thus argue , if it may not be lawfully taken , it is either because no oath may be taken , or no promissory oath , or no promissory oath to a king , or the matter of this oath is not to be acknowledged or promised . but none of these make it unlawful . ergo . the consequence is proved , because there is a sufficient enumeration made of things that seem to prohibit the taking of it : if not , let what else may make it unlawful be named . the minor is proved by parts , in confirming these six propositions . i. that some swearing is lawful . ii. that promissory oaths may be lawful . iii. that to swear to a king or governour may be lawful . iv. that the king is supreme governour over all persons in his dominions . v. that he is governour in ecclesiastical causes . vi . that the iurisdictions , preeminences , and priviledges meant in that oath may be lawfully acknowledge and defended . the first is proved thus . i. that which is not de toto genere , in it's whole kind evil , may be lawful : but swearing is not de toto genere , or in its whole kind evil . therefore some swearing may be lawful . the major is manifest of it self . the minor is thus proved . that is not wholly evil about the use of which some directions are given by god . god doth not give directions about the use of blasphemy , witchcraft , idolatry , &c. which are in their whole kind evil . but god giveth directions about the use of swearing , as in the third commandment ( which is undoubtedly moral ) jer. . . where he saith , and thou shalt swear , the lord liveth , in truth , in judgement , and in righteousness . ergo . . that which is approved by god , is lawful . but some swearing is approved by god . psal. . . every one that sweareth by god shall glory . ergo . the major is of it self manifest , the minor the text evidenceth , sith the swearing by god is made part of glorying in god , or of the swearers glory . . if it were unlawful to use any oath , then it were unlawful to put any oath on any . but this is not to be said . ergo . the consequence is manifest , sith we cannot lawfully urge any to that which is of it self sinful : now that it is lawful to put an oath on some persons at some times is manifest by gods own appointment , levit. . . . his ratifying solomons petition concerning this thing , king. . . chr. . . and the practise of abraham in the old testament , gen. . , . putting an oath on his servant , and pauls in the new , putting an oath on the thessalonians , thes. . . for so the greek word translated , i charge you by the lord , or adjre you , as it is in the margin , by the lord , is , i put the lords oath on you , or swear you that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren . alike charges are , tim. . . tim. . . . that which hath been the practise of the godly before , under the law , and in the times of the gospel without reproof is lawful , for in all these times , and by such men moved as they were by gods spirit , even in their holy speeches and writings , it would not have been done had it been sinful . but some swearing hath been the practise of the godly , before , under the law and in the times of the gospel , as is proved by instances , as of abraham that lift up his hand to the most high god , gen. . . of isaac , gen. . . of jacob , gen. . . under the law , of the people of israel , josh. . , . of david and jonathan , sam. . . . david to saul , sam . of urijah , sam. . . of ittai , . sam. . . of david , kings . , & . . of solomon , vers. . of elijah , kings . . of michajah , kings . . of elisha , king. . , . and . . and . . and the woman of shunem , king. . . in the times of the gospel , of paul , . cor. . . using this oath , as god is true , verse . . i call god to record upon my soul , and . . and . . cor. . . this is a form of swearing , by your rejoycing which i have in christ jesus , it being in the greek {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} which is a particle of swearing , not {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which are prepositions noting the means or instrument of the effect ; of the angel , revel. . . who sware by him that liveth for ever . the like are rom. . . & . . gal. . . philip . . . ergo . that which hath a necessary use for the benefit of humane society , is not unlawful . but some swearing hath a necessary use for the benefit of humane society . ergo . the major is plain , it agreeing with the law of nature and nations , which is of necessary use for the benefit of humane society , which laws god the author of nature hath imprinted in all , and indeed hath made all his laws for men one towards another subservient thereto . the minor is plain from the words of the author to the hebrews , chap. . . an oath to men is an end of strife , which is a necessary use for humane benefit . . that which hath been counted by all nations as a sacred thing , a principal part of the acknowledgement and worship of god , is not unlawful of it self . but so hath some swearing been counted . ergo . the minor is proved by gods own words , deut. . . thou shalt fear the lord thy god , him shalt thou serve , and to him shalt thou cleave and swear by his name . the second [ that promissory oaths may be lawful ] is thus proved . . that is not altogether of it self evil or unlawful , which god makes a bond of the soul to be kept and performed to the lord . but some promissory oaths god makes a bond of the soul to be kept and performed to the lord . ergo . some promissory othes may be lawful . the major is proved , because that which is altogether unlawful cannot bind the soul to god , nor is to be kept and performed to the lord . the minor is proved from numb. . . if a man vow a vow unto the lord , or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond , he shall not break or profane his word , he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth . matth. . . again ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time , thou shalt not forswear thy self , but shalt perform unto the lord thine oathes , where a promissory oath is made a bond to bind the soul with , to be kept and performed to the lord . . if holy men afore the law , under the law , in gospel times have put promissory oaths on others , then they are not altogether unlawful . this is proved by the same reason by which the like consequence is proved before , in proving the fourth argument of the former proposition . but holy men afore the law , as abraham , gen. . . . under the law , as moses , deut. . . jonathan , sam. . . asa and the people of israel , chron. . , , , . ezra , ezra . . in gospel times , paul , thes. . . adjuring the thessalonians by the lord , that that epistle be read to all the holy brethren , have put promissory oaths on others . ergo . . that which godly men have practised and still counted as well done that is lawful . but some promissory oaths godly men have practised and still counted as well done . ergo . the major is probable , and in this case , considering the persons , and the holy ghosts recording as he hath done , certain . the minor is proved by instances , of david , psal. . . i have sworn and will perform it , that i will keep thy righteous judgements . sam. . . and jonathan said to david , go in peace , forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the lord , saying , the lord be between me and thee , and between my seed and thy seed for ever . nehem. . . they clave to their brethren , their nobles , and entred into a curse , and into an oath to walk in gods law . king. . , . and the king sware and said , as the lord liveth , that hath redeemed my soul out of all distress , even as i sware unto thee , that by the lord god of israel assuredly solomon thy son shall reign after me , and he shall reproof is lawful , for in all these times , and by such men moved as they were by gods spirit , even in their holy speeches and writings , it would not have been done , had it been sinful . but some swearing hath been the practise of the godly , before , under the law and in the times of the gospel , as is proved by instances , as of abraham that lift up his hand to the most high god , gen. . . of isaac , gen. . . of jacob , gen. . . under the law , of the people of israel , josh. . . . of david and jonathan , sam. . . . david to saul sam. . . of urijah sam. . . of ittai , sam. . . of david , kings . , . & . . of solomon , vers. . of elijah , kings . . of michajah , king. . . of elisha , king. . . . and . . and . . and the woman of shunem , king. . . in the times of the gospel , of paul , cor. . . using this oath , as god is true , vers. . i call god to record upon my soul , and . . and . . cor. . . this is a form of swearing , by your rejoycing which i have in christ jesus , it being in greek {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} which is a particle of swearing , not {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which are prepositions noting the means or instrument of the effect ; of the angel , revel. . . who sware by him that liveth for ever . the like are rom. . . & . . gal. . . philip . . . ergo . . that which hath a necessary use for the benefit of humane society is not unlawful . but some swearing hath a necessary use for the benefit of humane society . ergo . the major is plain , it agreeing with the law of nature and nations , which is of necessary use for the benefit of humane society , which lawes god the author of nature hath imprinted in all , and indeed hath made all his laws for men one towards another subservient thereto . the minor is plain from the words of the author to the hebrews chap. . . an oath to men is an end of all strife , which is a necessary use for humane benefit . . that which hath been counted by all nations as a sacred thing , a principal part of the acknowledgment and worship of god , is not unlawful of it self . but so hath some swearing been counted . ergo . the minor is proved by gods own words , deut. . . thou shalt fear the lord thy god , him shalt thou serve , and to him shalt thou cleave , and swear by his name , the second [ that promissory oaths may be lawful ] is thus proved . . that is not altogether of it self evil or unlawful , which god makes a bond of the soul to be kept and performed to the lord . but some promissory oaths god makes a bond of the soul to be kept and performed to the lord . ergo . some promissory oaths may be lawful . the major is proved , because that which is altogether unlawful cannot binde the soul to god , nor is to be kept and performed to the lord . the minor is proved from numb. . . if a man vow a vow unto the lord , or swear an oath to binde his soul with a bond , he shall not break or profane his word , he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth , matth. . . again ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time , thou shalt not forswear thy self , but shalt perform unto the lord thine oaths , where a promissory oath is made a bond to binde the soul with , to be kept and performed to the lord . . if holy men afore the law , under the law , in gospel times have put promissory oaths on others , then they are not altogether unlawful . this is proved by the same reason by which the like consequence is proved before , in proving the fourth argument of the former proposition . but holy men afore the law , as abraham , gen. . . . under the law , as moses , deut. . . jonathan , sam. . . asa and the people of israel , chron. . , , , . ezra , ezra . . in gospel times , paul , thes. . . adjuring the thessalonians by the lord , that that epistle be read to all the holy brethren , have put promissory oaths on others . ergo . that which godly men have practised and still counted as well done that is lawful . but some promissory oaths godly men have practised and still counted as well done . ergo . the major is probable , and in this case , considering the persons , and the holy ghosts recording as he hath done , certain . the minor is proved by instances of david , psal. . . i have sworn and will perform it , that i will keep thy righteous judgements , sam. . . and jonathan said to david , go in peace , forasomuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the lord , saying , the lord be between me and thee , and between my seed and thy seed for ever . nehem. . . they clave to their brethren , their nobles , and entred into a curse , and into an oath to walk in gods law . king. . , . and the king sware and said , as the lord liveth , that hath redeemed my soul out of all distress , even as i sware unto thee that by the lord god of israel assuredly solomon thy son shall reign after me , and he shall sit upon my throne in my stead ; even so will i certainly do this day . . that which is made a qualification of one that shall dwell in gods holy hill , is not unlawful : but to swear to his hurt and not to change , that is , to take a promissory oath , and not to change , though it be to his dammage is made a qualification of one that shall dwell in gods holy hill , psal. . . ergo . some promissory oaths are lawful . the third proposition [ that to swear to a king or governour is lawful ] is proved , . from approved examples , which prove either a duty , or at least lawfulness of the thing . that which hath been practised by holy men without reproof is lawful . but swearing to kings and governours allegiance and obedience hath been practised by holy men . ergo . the minor is proved by instances of the people to david , sam. . . so all the elders came to the king to hebron , and king david made a league with them in hebron before the lord : and they anointed david king over israel , chron. . . then came all the elders of israel to the king to hebron , and david made a covenant with them in hebron before the lord , and they anointed david king over israel according to the word of the lord by samuel . a covenant before the lord was an oath , but the people of israel , a holy people made a covenant before the lord with david their king , therefore they entred into an oath of allegiance and due obedience . the other is more plain , king. . . and in the seventh year jehojada sent and fet the rulers over hundreds with the captains and the guard , and brought them to him in the house of the lord , and made a covenant with them , and took an oath of them in the house of the lord , and shewed them the kings son , vers. . and jehojada made a covenant between the lord and the king , and the people , that they should be the lords people : between the king also and the people , chron. . . and all the congregation made a covenant with the king in the hosue of god : and he said unto them , behold the kings son shall reign , as the lord hath said of the sons of david , vers. . then jehojada made a covenant between him and all the people , and between the king , that they should be the lords people . these are express examples of swearing allegiance to kings , which is consonant to what our lord christ teacheth , that we should render to caesar the things that are caesars , as to god the things that are gods , matth. . . besides we finde david swearing to saul , sam. . . the people conceiving themselves bound by sauls adjuration , sam , . , . shimei was bound by the oath which solomon imposed on him , where solomon speaks thus to him , why hast thou not kept the oath of the lord , and the commandment that i have charged thee with ? abrahams servant sware obedience to abraham , and counted himself bound to keep it , gen. . , . then arose ezra , and made the chief priests , the levites , and all israel to swear , that they should do according to this word , and they sware , ezra . . nehemiah made them swear by god , saying , ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons , nor take their daughters unto your sons , or for your selves , nehem. . . . from gods dealing with zedekiah , that kept not the oath made to the king of babylon , ezek. . , . where god doth not except against the oath , but the breaking of it calling it his oath , which he had despised , and his covenant that he had broken ; whence i argue , that which god calls his oath , the despising of which he avengeth , may be lawfully taken . but an oath of subjection even to the king of babylon , god calls his oath , the despising of which he avengeth , therefore some oath of subjection to a king , may be lawfull . . from the words of solomon , eccles. . . i counsel thee to keep the kings commandment , and that in regard of the oath of god . the oath of god seemeth to be an oath by god to the king , being made the reason of keeping the kings commandment , as the oath of shemei , king. . . is termed the oath of the lord , zedechiah's oath to the king of babylon , gods oath and covenant , ezek. . . prov. . . the wives covenant with her husband , is called the covenant of her god ; whence i argue , that which is gods oath , and is urged as the reason of keeping the kings command is lawful . but an oath of subjection to a king is gods oath , and urged as the reason of keeping his commandment , as the text shews , therefore it is lawful . if by the oath of god be meant , not a particular oath to a king , but the general oath or covenant to obey god ( which seems not so likely , because it is the special reason of keeping the kings commandment ) yet thus also the argument holds : if it be lawful to make a general oath to god of keeping his laws , and this be one of gods laws to keep the kings commandment , and that the particular oath of subjection to the king is comprehended in the general oath of keeping gods commands , a particular oath of obedience to the king is not unlawful . . that is lawful which is of necessary use for the publique good . but some swearing to a king or other governors is of necessary use for the publique good , therefore it is lawful . the major is confirmed in proving the major of the fifth argument of the first proposition , the minor is proved by experience , even jehojada and david conceived so , and the reason is , because the common peace and good government cannot be kept but by good correspondence between prince and people : therefore if mutual oaths tend thereto , as often they do , they are of necessary use for the publique good . the grand objection is from the words of our saviour , math. . , , , . but i say unto you , swear not all , neither by heaven for it is gods throne : nor by the earth , for it is his footstool : neither by jerusalem , for it is the city of the great king . neither shalt thou swear by thy head , because thou canst not make one hair white or black . but let your communication be yea , yea , nay , nay , for whatsover is more then these cometh of evil : and of the apostles , jam. . . but above all things my brethren , swear not , neither by heaven , neither by the earth , neither by any other oath : but let your yea be yea , and your nay , nay ; lest ye fall into condemnation : which words do seem expresly and fully to forbid any swearing at all , excluding some sorts of oaths by name , and the rest by general terms , with prescription that our communication be yea , yea , nay , nay , and determination , that what is more then these cometh of evil , or the evil one , which made some of the ancients and later godly persons conclude all oaths of any sort prohibited now to christians , though they were not to the jews . but the reasons foregiven are so cogent to the contrary , that we must of necessity finde out a limitation of the speeches , as we do , and rightly , for the next words of our saviour following , vers. , , , , . which are as full in shew for not resisting of evil , but offering our selves to receive further injury , and permitting more dammage and profuse vain casting away our estates , contrary to the law of nature , in our necessary defence , to that necessary moderate providence , which belongs to every man , that due respect which each is to have to the rules of mercy , bounty , and our own imployment and family , so that without good caution we shall make christs precept in stead of being useful to become pernicious . that we may then consider how to understand our lords precept about swearing , we are to take this as certain , that christs precept forbids somewhat which the pharisaical teachers allowed , though they forbad perjury ; now one thing seems to be forbidden by our lord christ , to wit , the making of such distinction of oaths as the pharisees did , and accordingly used them , which seems to have consisted in two things . . in conceiving they might use oaths by some creatures , as if in such use there were no relation to god , and so no profaning of his name , or taking it in vain . the reason of this seems to be christs and james his instances onely in such sorts of oaths as were by creatures , and the refutation of their conceit , by shewing , that all referred to god , as the oath by the heaven , was by god , sith it was his throne ; by the earth , sith it is his footstool ; by jerusalem , sith it was his city ; by the head sith he makes the hair white or black . . that some of these oaths made them debtors to perform what they sware and not other , which appears from christs own charge upon them , matth. . , , , , , , . where he terms them fools and blinde guides for such decision , concluding that all those oaths had respect to god , and did binde . and accordingly christ is not to be understood as forbidding simply all oaths , but such differencing of oaths in their meaning and obligation , as the pharisees , and other jews , either superstitiously or otherwise erroneously used , yet i do not conceive this is all . for the words , swear not at all , neither by heaven nor earth , nor any other oath , but prescribing yea , yea , nay , nay , censuring more to be from evil , or the evil one , seems to forbid all oaths in some cases or manner , which some conceive as if he forbad a promissory oath universally , or a vow with an oath : but these opinions stand not with the second proposition before proved , nor do i finde any thing in the text leading to them . and therefore i conceive , that the prohibition is of that frequent , vain , light , profane , unnecessary , customary passionate swearing , or in secular matters of no importance , without any dread of an oath , or consideration of the holiness of god , upon a provocation to anger , as david , sam. . . or deceifully as those , psal. . . all who take gods name in vain , which i gather from the text . . in that he prescribeth their yea , yea , nay , nay , to be in their speech or communication , which seems to be meant of their familiar speech one with another , in their answers to each other . . because james saying , let your yea be yea , and your nay nay , doth exlude inconstancy and lightness , and prescribes such considerateness as that they need not unsay what they have said , that to use the apostles speech , cor. . . our words may not be yea , and nay , off and on , but yea and amen , that is , firm and ratified , so as that deeds answer to words , as becomes men , that consider what they say , and still say that taught the good knowledge of the lord , chron. . , , , . removed the high places , and brake the images , and cut down the groves , and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that moses had made : for unto those days the children of israel did burn incense to it , king. . . appointed the courses of the priests and levites , with the portion to be given to the priests and the levites , . chron. . , . josiah purged the land of idols , repaired the lords house , gathered all the people to hear the law read , and to make them to stand to the covenant he made before the lord , to walk after the lord . and in the doing of these things the kings are said to do that which was right in the eyes of the lord , and to walk before the lord with a perfect heart . . on the contrary , the not removing the high places , and permitting idols , and neglecting the setting up of gods true worship and service , is charged upon some of the kings as their sin , king. . . and . . king. . . and . . . god gives a special charge to the king to have a copy of the law , and to read therein , that he may learn to fear the lord , and to keep all the words of the law , deut. . , . and therefore when jehojada crowned king jehoash he gave him the testimony , king. . . that he might be minded , that he was , as a king , to know and to see to the keeping of the whole law . . the open practice of idolatry is imputed to the want of a king in israel , judg. . , . and . . which proves , that the king in israel ought to restrain from idolatry , and not to permit every man to do what was right in his own eyes . the ma●or is manifest , because the office of the kings of israel was no ceremonial function , as the priests , but moral , and of perpetual use , and therefore belongs to other kings as well as the kings of israel ; nor doth the gospel deprive them , or any other of their state and authority , by their becoming christians : for then suppose king agrippa had become a christian , he must have ceased to be a king , and have had his kingly power diminished : but as the apostle resolves concerning servants and persons of other conditions , cor. . . brethren , let every man wherein he is called therein abide with god , that is , his christian calling doth not bind him to leave the state and condition of life in which he was , nor diminish his authority which he had when he was called to be a christian , as not consisting with christianity ; so is it true concerning kings and other magistrates , they have greater obligation to god , and the lord christ , no less authority and power as kings by their christianity : but they may abide in their office , and exercise the lawful authority they had before . perhaps it will be said , the kings of israel were types of christ , and therefore their power and authority did cease in things spiritual and ecclesiastical , when christ was come . . but to the contrary , this is said without proof , and so is rejected as easily as it is alledged . . it is true , christ is often termed david , and it is said , he shall sit on davids throne , luk. . , . but this power of reforming religion was not appropriate to david , or the race of the kings of judah , but belonged also to the kings of israel , ( who were not types of christ ) who are charged with the permission or promoting of idolatry , as their sin , as on jeroboam , ahab , &c. and jehu is in some measure rewarded for the partial reformation he made , king. . , , . and therefore it belonged not to the kings of israel to reform religion , onely as types of christ , but even as kings . . this is proved , and the proposition it self . that is to be ascribed to the king , which was with approbation ascribed to kings out of the church . but the government in things and causes spiritual or belonging to religion , is ascribed with approbation to kings out of the church . ergo . the major is proved , because what of this kind is with approbation ascribed to kings out of the church , is to be taken as belonging to kings as kings , and not as typical kings or rulers . the minor is proved by instances . the first of cyrus king of persia of whom we read that the lord stirred up his spirit to make a proclamation for building of gods house , . chron. . , . ezra . . , . in doing this he is called gods shepherd , isa . . and anointed by god , isa. . . and the same was continued by decrees of darius , ezra . , , , , , . and artaxerxes , ezra . , , , . now these things belonging to the building of gods house , furthering his service , were spiritual things , and therefore government in spiritual things belonging to religion , is ascribed to kings out of the church . to these may be added the decree of nebuchadnezzar against them that should speak any thing amiss against the god of shadrach , meshach and abednego . dan. . . and of darius , dan. . . that in every dominion of his kingdom , men tremble and , fear before the god of daniel , which are undoubtedly about spiritual causes or matters of religion : and the king of nineveh his proclamation by the decree of the king and his nobles , that all should fast covered with sackcloth , and cry mightily to god , jonah . , . which is approved by god , in that he defer'd his judgement thereupon : in all which government in matters of religion was exercised and approved . . that which agrees to other rulers besides kings , agrees much more to kings , but to govern in causes spiritual or things of religion , belongs to governours below kings , therefore much more to kings . . the major is proved from the title given to the king , pet. . . where he is called the supreme or excelling , and of those that are in authority or excelling , tim. . , . the king is reckoned as chief ; therefore if inferiour governours are to govern in matters of religion , much more kings . now that they are to do so , appears by the practice of nehemiah , who being not king , nor priest , but governour under the king of persia , reformed the priests , excluding aliens from the priests chambers , giving the levites their portion , and chiefly by restraining the profanation of the sabbath , nehem. . , , , . reckoning it among the works for which he would have god remember him . jacob reforms his houshold by requiring them to put away the strange gods that were among them , and bury them , gen. . , . parents are required to bring up their children in the nurture , in greek discipline or government and admonition of the lord , ephes. . . servants are to be obedient to their masters as to christ , vers. . as the servants of christ doing the will of god from the heart , vers. . with good will doing service as to the lord and not to men : therefore parents and masters have government in matters of religion , much more the father and master of the common-wealth , having a more ample authority . . this is further confirmed in that the apostle where he speaks of the powers , he saith without limitation , that rulers are not a terrour to good works but to evil : wilt thou not be afraid of the power ? do that which is good , and thou shalt have praise of the same , he is the minister of god , a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil , rom. . . . kings and governours sent by them are for the punishment of evil doers , and for the praise of them that do well , without limitation and distinction of civil and spiritual things , pet. . . now where the law doth not distinguish , neither are we , and therefore are to understand the governing in the text to be in religious things as well as civil . . which is further confirmed from the titles given to them : they are termed gods , psal. . , . john . , . ministers of god , rom. . . that judge not for man but for the lord , chron. . . therefore they are to be ministers in a political way , and to judge in things of the lord . . paul did not refuse to apologize for himself about the accusations of the jews against him for his profession and preaching of christian religion , but did justifie himself before felix , festus and king agrippa , and appealed to caesar , act. . . and . , , , . and . , , , , and . , . therefore he denied not , but acknowledged the kings government , even in the things and causes that concern christian religion , and consequently we may in like manner acknowledge it . . paul exhorts us to pray and give thanks for kings and all that are in authority or excellency , that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty , tim. . , . therefore he supposeth that kings have some government in matters of godliness , as well as honesty , and therefore are governours in causes spiritual , or of religion . . from the absurdities which follow if this be not granted . . if the king be not governour in ecclesiastical things and causes , then his kingly power is of no use in matters of religion , for if he have no government in them he is to be a looker on , and in effect a meer cipher in respect of such things ; but this is not to be said , sith matters of religion do as much concern him to govern in , as any causes , all experience shewing that no government can be well ordered without some regard had to religion . . all the actions which kings have been commended for by godly persons were unjustifiable : the pulling down of idols , restraining the importation and vending of popes pardons , and consecrated ware , the causing the holy bible to be translated , and publiquely to be read , proclaimnig fasts , and days of thanksgiving , with many of the like acts of kingly authority have been unwarrantable . . kings should have no way of expressing their zeal for gods worship and true religion more then other men , if they were not governours in spiritual things and causes , nor be more accountable to god for neglect thereof , then other men , nor this sin of theirs of more guilt then the like sin of others , which are all absurd . . all the holy martyrs who have owned their authority , and submitted to it when they suffered under it , all those who have petitioned for reformation of religion to kings , have giventhanks to god for it , have advised that it should be sought from them , should be censured as foolish , if not sinfully countenancing an unrighteous usurpation , and the best christian kings who have done most for the settling the affairs of the church censured {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} busie in other mens matters , and the like is to be said of parliaments , and so all matters of religion must be left wholly to bishops , the evil and miserable effects of which are discernible in the records of former and later times , to be intolerable ; as it fell out in the troubles by thomas becket in the time of henry the second , of stephen langton in king johns days , the persecution in queen maries days by bishops , whose disowning the kings supremacy and asserting the popes , occasioned the making and the imposing of this oath . . those titles which have been given them for their care in ordering the things of the church , that they were nursing fathers and nursing mothers to it , according to isaiahs prophecy , isa. . . should be recalled : all the exhortations and charges given to them by preachers to take care of the church of god , should be retracted , they should be no longer minded , that they are to be keepers of both tables of the law ; in a word , it should be their virtue to be as gallio was , that cared for none of these things , acts . . which are all absurd . against this many things are objected . . that to acknowledge the king the onely supreme governour is to make him god . to this i answer : not so , sith he is acknowledged governour in his dominions , and supreme therein under god , and the exclusive term [ onely ] excludes foraign jurisdiction of the pope and other princes and states , ( which by the oath is renounced ) not gods government . object . if kings are governours in all causes , then they may appoint what religion , and worship of god they please , and it is evil to disobey or gainsay what they impose . answer . though in temporal things they be governours , yet are they to govern according to laws . so in spiritual and ecclesiastical things they are to govern according to the laws of christ , and such rules as agree with them , and not in either , in a meerly arbitrary way after their own will : nor are we necessitated to obey or own what they require , if inconsistent with the laws of christ , and such rules as agree with them . object . . if kings be governours in all causes over all persons , then may they dissolve churches and their government , and mould and order them as they will . answ. so far as church constitution , government , and ordering is by christs appointment , or such example which hath the force of an institution of christ , it may not be altered by a king ; but in such things as are left to humane prudence , and there is a concernment of the weal publique ; kings have authority to order them so , as that they tend to the real good and advantage of the churches of christ , and the glory of god , which is the highest and ultimate end of all . object . . this will make the use of synods , and assemblies of pastors to determine things of religion , and to order government unnecessary , sith the determination of all will lye in the kings breast . answ. though statute-laws require the kings assent , and the government is to be exercised in his name , by his commission , yet are not debates in parliament , and passing bills by both houses , nor consultations with judges , nor their decisions of cases unnecessary : the like is to be said of the use of synods and assemblies of pastors and learned men , though the calling of them , and validity of their canons , that is rules , in respect of the imposing them on others with civil penalties , require the kings concurrence . object . . this hath occasioned great evils in so much that persecution hath been raised against godly persons as heretiques and schismatiques , when princes have been misled ; so as to burn , banish , imprison , and otherwise to afflict persons , judged by prelates and others to be such . answ. 't is true this hath fallen out , when princes ignorant of the true religion , corrupted in their education , perverted by seducers and ungodly guides in their judgements have yielded too much to the misinformation of others , and so have been unhappy in the abuse of their government to the great hurt in life , liberty , and estate of innocent persons : and the like hath been in mal-administration of civil affairs , through the like causes : yet the power and authority in neither is to be denied for some abuse : for that would introduce a worse evil of anarchy and mischievous confusions . on the other side when princes have been good , and have used such good counsellours , as jehojada was to joash ; their government in religion hath been of great advantage to the church of christ . and , as things have stood in england , it was the means under god whereby popery was expelled , and the protestant reformation was established . object . . by allowing so much power in ecclesiastical things , religion is often changed with the king , and thereby peoples minds are at much uncertainty what religion to be of , which tends to irreligion and atheisme . answ. so it fell out in the kingdom of judah , yet the power of the kings of judah in matters of religion was not for this cause denied . and the like happens upon change of teachers , as in the churches of galatia : and paul , acts . , . foretels the like would be in the church of ephesus , yet is not therefore the use and government of pastors to be denied , but more diligence to be in using such holy means as prayer for kings , tim. . , . &c. which by gods blessing may prevent these evils . object . . no man is to govern in that whereof he is no sit judge , nor is any man a fit judge but he that is skilful in the things he judgeth : which seldom happened to kings in matters of religion , and therefore government therein is ill ascribed to them . ans. as a king may be fit to govern in temporal causes ( whereto is required skill in the laws of the land , of which perhaps he hath little or no knowledge , not so much as a judge is to have , who passeth sentence ) if he choose and use them that are skilful and upright therein : so it may be in ecclesiastical causes , if he choose and use the help of them that are skilful and faithful in religion . but in this thing there is need of the greatest circumspection , vigilancy and wariness , on the one side by reason of the cunning and diligence of seducers , and the violence of spirit in profane persons against the most holy and harmless christians , and on the other side by reason of the weakness in the faith of many upright souls , whose consciences are very tender , and their wounds hardly cured : of whom our lord christ was very tender , matth. . . and gentle toward them , as the great shepherd of the sheep , through the blood of the everlasting covenant , heb. . . as was foretold , isai. . . and the apostle paul requires much indulgence to be given them , rom. . , . object . . the acknowledgement of this supremacy of the king hath been opposed by sundry godly protestants , who have in their writings excepted against it , as calvin , and the century writers of magdeburg . answ. t is true , they excepted against the title of head of the church given to king henry the eighth , as stephen gardiner , and such like persons misreported it , as if it gave to the king an uncontrollable authentique power , to determine of faith , and worship of god : but when those learned protestants better understood what was meant by it , they withdrew their exceptions , as doctor rainold shews in his conference with hart in the tower , chap. . object . . many godly persons are offended with the taking , and defending the lawfulness of the taking of this oath , as fearing it many tend to the taking away those liberties of their consciences in religion , which are dearer to them then their lives : and being jealous of those who take it , least they betray those liberties . ans. it is to be considered by those conscientious persons , who make this objection , that the takers , and defenders of the taking of this oath do apprehend , that the imposing this oath was for the excluding the popes jurisdiction , and other forreign power , as the admonition of queen elizabeth here prefixed shews , and therefore there is nothing done by such takers or defenders in prejudice of their brethrens liberties , or imposition on the consciences of others : but they that have taken it , or conceive they may take it , if imposed , do it , as being satisfied in their consciences by the foregoing arguments , or such like , that they do but what they may do lawfully without offence , and hope that it will fall out as it did in the business of the altar of ed , josh. . that a right intelligence of their fact will prevent any breach between them and others , and unite them more closely . object . . this acknowledgement of the kings supremacy in causes ecclesiastical hath been but of late , not before king henry the eighth and edward the sixth . answer . the title of head of the church of england , ( now altered into supreme governour over all persons ) though it were not assumed by the kings of england before henry the eighth , yet the power of supreme government in causes ecclesiastical , as saith bishop bramhal in his answer to militiere , pag. . the ancient kings of england ever exercised , not onely before the reformation , but before the norman conquest , as appeared by the acts of their great councils , by their statutes , and articles of the clergy , by so many laws of provision against the bishop of romes conferring ecclesiastical dignities and benefices upon foreigners , by so many sharp oppositions against the exactions and usurpations of the court of rome , by so many laws concerning the patronage of bishopricks , and investitures of bishops , by so many examples of churchmen punished by the civil magistrate . this power , though not this name , the christian emperors of old assumed to themselves , to convocate synods , to preside in synods , to confirm synods , to establish ecclesiastical laws , to receive appeals , to nominate bishops , to eject bishops , to suppress heresies , to compose ecclesiastical differences , in councils , out of councils , by themselves , by their delegates . all which is as clear in the history of the church , as if it were written with a beam of the sun . the sixth proposition is [ the jurisdictions , preeminences , priviledges , and authorities in that oath may be assisted and defended ] the jurisdictions , &c. meant i conceive to be expressed a little before the form of the oath in the statute of eliz. cap. . of which the queens admonition saith , no other authority is challenged , than that was challenged and lately used by king henry the eighth , and edward the sixth , that is , under god , to have the soveraignty and rule over all manner of persons , born within her realms , dominions and countreys , of what estate either ecclesiastical or temporal soever they be , so as no other foreign power shall or ought to have any superiority over them . what was used in the days of henry the eighth , and edward the sixth , appears by the book of acts and monumens and statutes in their days , to wit , the rejecting the popes jurisdiction , appointing visitors , judging and deposing some bishops , commands to take down images , causing divine service to be in the english tongue , the bible in the english tongue to be in churches , with many other things of the like kinde . the promise to defend them is [ to our power ] whether by opposing the bringers in of a forreign power , especially the popes or by aiding the king in the right use of this authority , neither is the power granted which may not be lawfully used or exercised , nor is the abuse of it required to be defended . with this explication , the proposition is thus proved . that we may lawfully swear to assist and defend , which may lawfully be exercised , and may be of necessary use . this proposition needs not any further proof being of it self manifest . but all the jurisdictions , priviledges , preeminences and authorities meant in the oath according to the queens explication in her admonition , ratified in the proviso of the statute . eliz. may be lawfully exercised , and may be of necessary use , as appears by the recital of them and their use before specified : therefore we may lawfully swear to assist and defend them . the objection that is made against this is , that these jurisdictions , preeminences , priviledges , and authorities were the same that were taken from the pope and given to the king , and thereby papal power was conferred on him . to which i answer , the power ( saith hart conference with rainold , chap. . division . ) which we mean to the pope by this title of the supreme head is , that the government of the whole church throughout the world doth depend of him : in him doth lie the power of judging and determining all causes of faith , of ruling councils as president , and ratifying their decrees ; of ordering and confirming bishops and pastours ; of deciding causes brought him by appeals from all the coasts of the earth , of reconciling any that are excommunicate , of excommunicating , suspending or inflicting other censures and penalties on any that offend , yea , on princes and nations ; finally of all things of the like sort , for governing of the church , even whatsoever toucheth either preaching of doctrine or practising of discipline in the church of christ . now this immense power , as too heavy for the shoulders of a mortal man , and as not belonging to the kingly office at all in many parts of it , is disclaimed by the kings of england , as is before shewed , and not meant to be acknowledged in the oath . therefore , saith dr. john rainold confer. with hart , chap. . that which we take from the pope we give not to any mortal creature , and having by the reading of dr. nowels reproof of dormans proof of certain articles convinced hart the jesuite , that no more is meant by it then what august . saith epist. . that kings do serve gods as kings , if in their own realm they command good things , and forbid evil , not onely concerning the civil state of men , but the religion of god also : thus much he did subscribe to . out of all which i infer , that it was very presumptuously and unjustly made by mounsier de la militiere the crime of the kings of england , which god chastised by the late tragedy , that the authority which god gave the king in temporal matters was used by him for governing spiritual , in his tempting epistle to his majesty that now is , whom the lord preserve and direct in the mannaging of this power of so great concernment to so many millions of precious souls as are within his dominions . amen . finis . christs commination against scandalizers, or, a treatise wherein the necessitie, nature, sorts, and evils of scandalizing are clearly and fully handled with resolution of many questions, especially touching the abuse of christian liberty, shewing that vengeance is awarded against such as use it to the grievance of their weake brethren / by iohn tombes ... tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) christs commination against scandalizers, or, a treatise wherein the necessitie, nature, sorts, and evils of scandalizing are clearly and fully handled with resolution of many questions, especially touching the abuse of christian liberty, shewing that vengeance is awarded against such as use it to the grievance of their weake brethren / by iohn tombes ... tombes, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed for e. forrest, and are to be sold by richard royston ..., london : . errata: prelim. p. 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such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng sin. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion christs commination against scandalizers : or , a treatise wherein the necessitie , nature , sorts , and evils of scandalizing are clearly and fully handled . with resolution of many questions , especially touching the abuse of christian liberty : shewing that vengeance is awarded against such as use it to the grievance of their weake brethren . by iohn tombes . minister of gods word . cor. . . vvhen ye sinne so against the brethren , and wound their weake conscience , ye sinne against christ. printed at london for e. forrest , and are to be sold by richard royston at the signe of the angell in ivy-lane . . to the right honourable iohn lord viscovnt scudamore . right honourable , it is necessary that christians should bee warned of sin against god , lest they incurre his wrath . and withall it is as necessary that the sins of which men are warned should be plainely , and distinctly declared . without the one mens consciences will sinne without feare : without the other they will feare where no feare is : the defect of the former will make conscien●es secure : the want of the la●ter perpetually unquiet , o● setled in errour . and errours in conscience produce many great evills not onely ad intra in mens owne soules , but also ad extra in humane affaires . the endeavouring then t● direct mens consciences in practique cases cannot but be a needfull and charitable worke . and surely as it is usefull in other arguments , so very needfull in this of scandals . few there bee that heed the terrible commination of our saviour against scandalizers , and therefore are affected as if by transmigration they had cains spirit , when he said nunquid ego fratris mei custos ? whence it is that offences are multiplyed dayly , many soules perish , alienations of minde , schismes , jarres and warres too arise . wee wish , wee pray , i would wee might say we hope for a true union and consolidation of mens minds . certainly it is not to be hoped without removeall of scandals . on the other side the greivous threatning of our lord christ doth so affright many consciences , that they are almost irresolute in every thing they doe before men , as fearing least there be anguis in herba , some scandall in it . in my small reading and experience i find few doubts of conscience , concerning mens patent actions , in the resolving of which the difficulty hath not most of all rested on this point of scandals . which considerations moved me to apply some part of my studies to cleare this argument , and to remove this evill . and having in this forme fashioned a treatise , i cannot say polished , it is now produced into the light for publique good by discovery of truth . such as it is i humbly present to your lordship , as to a person made honourable not only by your high dignities , but also by your noble vertues , manifested abroade in your employments of state , and in this your native countrey ( wherein as in your proper orbe you shined many yeares tanquam stella primae magnitudinis ) by your eminent prudence and integrity in government , and by your rare , pious , and large munificence in restoring tithes , and bestowing lands and building on the church , and indeared to my selfe by reason of that noble favour by which your honour hath beene pleased to cheare me in this very great , and very poore cure , in and under which i now labour . which i beseech your honour to accept of as from him that rejoyceth in the prosperity of your honour and your noble house , and studies to acquite himselfe your honours in most humble observance iohn tombes . to the reader . christian reader . for preventing of mistakes i intreat thee to take notice . . that whereas i finde the word [ scandall ] in common speech & some writings used as if it did signify a slander or evill report , i conceive that such use of the word [ scandall ] in that sense is different from the proper notation and use thereof : and therefore is omitted by me in this treatise . for though a slander may be a scandall , yet ratio nominis , or the notion and conceit of them is different ; the one signifying a false report of another in respect of the speaker whether the party slandered know of it or not , be offended or not : the other generally signifies all such acts whereby mens minds are harmed in reference to the person harmed , as i have declared chap : . and . of this treatise . . that whereas i use the tearme [ regard ] sundry times , especially chap. . in such a sense as it carries rom. . . where our last translatours by it render [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] used there by the apostle , and i say such a scandall is not to be regarded or not regardeable , my meaning is not as if it were not simply to be regarded , but in every respect to bee neglected , so as that we should not at all be bound to be greived for anothers harme caused by his owne wilfullnesse or ill disposition , nor to pray or use other christian meanes to redresse it , but onely this , that we are not so to regard it as to conceive our selves bound in conscience to omit our action , or to charge our selves with sinne if we doe that thing upon which scandall followes in the cases there mentioned . . that there are in the print sundry faults escaped in the few hebrew and greeke and latin words , in the running title , in the numbers of sections in the margint , in the interpunctions , and letters , which because i conceive the learned will easily amend , and they are not likely either to hinder or pervert the understanding of the rest , i have thought best not to burden the table of errata with them , but have collected these few that follow as the most materiall . errata . page . line . for bastes read beastes . p. . l. . for sandalls r. scandalls . p. . l. . for and r. are . p. . l. . dele then . p. . l. . for due it r. due to it . p. . l. . for occasion r. occasion of . p. . l. . for it that r. in that . p. . l. . for wise r. wife . p. . l. . for they r. there . p. . l. . for changeth r. chargeth . p. . l. . for intrence r. entrench . the contents . cap. . of the meaning of the text , and the necessity of scandalls . parag : . the speaker and occasion of the words . parag. . the partition of the text. parag. . the explication of the word scandall in the proper acception . parag. . scandall in the scripture use . parag. . of the sorts of effective scandall . parag. . the necessity of scandalls . parag. . in respect of scandalizers . parag. . of persons scandalized . parag. . of satan . parag. . of god. parag. . for what ends ordered by him . parag. . the application . . to justify religion notwithstanding the scandals of the professors of it . parag. . to magnify the providence of god. parag. . to teach men to walke circumspectly . parag. . to waite for christs comming . cap. . of the woe belonging to scandalizers in generall . parag. . the explication of the words of the second proposition of the text. parag. . that a woe belongs to scandalizers . parag. . who are scandalizers , and to what scandalizing woe belongs . parag. . what woe belongs to them . parag. . . why a woe belongs to them . parag. . application . to manifest the danger of scandalizers . parag. . to admonish them of their sinne . parag. . directions to avoyd it . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by sinfull example . parag. . scandalizing distributed into foure wayes . parag. . a woe belongs to them that scandalize by sinfull example . parag. . what actions of sinfull example doe scandalize . parag. . how they doe scandalize . parag. . why a woe belongs to such . parag. . application . to move them to mourne that scandalize by sinfull example . parag. . . to move men to take heed of scandalizing by sinfull example . parag. . . and others that they be not scandalized by sinfull example . parag. . directions to prevent it . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by abuse of liberty in things lawfull . parag. . a woe belongs to scandalizers by abuse of liberty in things lawfull . parag. . reasons thereof out of s. paules epistles . parag. . the difficulty of this point , and quaeres propounded to cleare it . parag. . answer of the first quaere , what are things lawfull and indifferent , and what is our liberty in their use . parag. . what wayes our liberty in things indifferent may be restrained . parag. . the summary of the apostles resolutions about scandall in the use of things indifferent delivered rom. . parag. . and . cor. . . . chapters . parag. . quest. . who are to avoyde scandalizing by abuse of liberty in things indifferent . parag. . quest. . scandalizing of whom by such abuse is to be avoyded . parag. . quest. . whether strong ones are obnoxious to such scandall . parag. . quest. . who are to be accounted weake ones not to be thus scandalized . parag. . quest. . what evill consequent on our actiō makes scandalizing of this sort . parag. . quest. . how long we are to forbeare our liberty for feare of scandall . parag. . quest. . what foresight of scandall consequent is necessary to make a man capable of scandalizing this way . parag. . quest. . whether the restraint of our liberty for feare of scandall be universall . parag. . quest. . whether scandall may be by omission of the use of our liberty . parag. . quest. . whether a community or a magistrate may be scandalized . parag. . quest. . what we are to doe when there is danger of scandall one way , and of disobedience to the magistrate another way . parag. . quest. . what we are to doe in case of scandall either by using or not using our liberty . parag. . quest. . what we are to doe when the forbearing of our liberty indangers the losse of it . parag. . quest. . what wee are to doe when there is danger of life by not using our liberty , of scandall by using it . parag. . quest. . what we are to doe when there is feare of scandall to some , and hope of good to others by use of our liberty . parag. . quest. . how farre we are to regard the scandall that ariseth from meer fancy without any probable reason . parag. . application . to manifest the uncharitablenesse of scandalizers by abuse of their liberty . parag. . . to disswade them from this sinne , with directions against it . parag. . . to admonish men that they be not scandalized by anothers use of his liberty , and directions to that end . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by enticing practises . parag. . a woe belongs to scandalizers by enticing practises . parag. . how men scandalize by enticing practises . parag. . difference of scandalizers by enticing practises in respect of the part they act therein . parag. . difference of scandalizers by enticing practises in respect of the motives which incite them . parag. . difference of scandalizers by enticing practises in respect of the matter wherein they scandalize . parag. . the reasons of the woe due to this scandalizing . parag. . application . to manifest the great guilt of scandalizers in this kind . parag. . . to admonish men to take heed of scandalizing this way . parag. . . and those that are apt to be scandalized . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by persecution . parag. . a woe belongs to scandalizers by persecution . parag. . how beleivers are persecuted . parag. . how persecutions doe scandalize . parag. . what woe belongs to scandalizers by persecution . parag. . application . to discover the danger of such scandalizers . parag. . . to deterre them from it . parag. . . to advise them that are in danger of being scandalized by persecutions . cap. . of the aggravation of the woe belonging to scandalizers . parag. . the explication of the third proposition in the text . parag . . those that believe in christ are little ones . parag. . some lesse then others in spirituall gifts and graces . parag. . in power and dignity . parag. . beleivers commonly lesse then others in the world . parag. . little in their owne eyes . parag. . application . to advertise us of the estate of beleivers in this world . parag. . . to teach beleivers contentednesse in a low condition . parag. . . to quicken their hope after heaven . parag. . . to aggravate the sinne of scandalizing beleivers . parag. . that the woe due to scandalizers of beleivers is greater then any temporall death . parag. . who are to be accounted beleivers in christ. parag. . why so great vengeance is awarded to scandalizers of beleivers in christ. parag. . application . to manifest christs tender care over his people . parag. . . to teach us to commit our cause to him when we suffer for him . parag. . . to advertise scandalizers of the greatnesse of their sinne and punishment . parag. . . to deterre them from their sinne . vae scandalizantium . luke . . . . then said he to the disciples , it is impossible but that offences will come , but woe unto him through whom they come . it were better for him that a milstone were hanged about his neck , and he cast into the sea than that he should offend one of these litle ones . cap. . of the meaning of the text , and the necessity of scandalls . the wordes of the wise ( saith solomon ) are as goades , and as nailes fastned by the masters of assemblies : which are given from one shepheard : such words are these : the words of the wise , even of him who is wisdome it selfe , given from one shepheard , even him who is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the chiefe & only shepheard , and bishop of soules to the masters of assemblies , the holy apostles , to be , as goades to provoke unto love , and as nailes to fasten men in unity . all the words of this preacher were acceptable words , and although all are not written , yet all that are written are upright , even words of truth . this present speech was conceived so usefull , that two of the evangelists have preserved the first part : s. luke here , and saint mathew ch. . . and three the latter part ▪ s. luke here , s. matthew with some inversion of the order used by s. luke , and saint marke , ch . . . the occasion of this speech is distinctly related by s. matthew , to wit , the disciples disceptation about preeminence ; to decide which controversie our saviour sets before them a litle child , as an embleme of humility , and upon this text reads a lecture to them , of which these words are part , s. marke ch . . . inserts another accident , to wit , s. iohns forbidding some that were not in christs retinue , to cast out divels in his name , togither with our saviours reply . saint luke ch . . v. . &c. relates the same accidents , but not this part of his course in this place . in which it is in vaine to seeke for connexion . that which maldonate hath observed is right , that the occasion is plainly set downe , and the order right in s. matthew ; here in s. luke the words are put loco alieno in another place . these two verses in s. luke doe containe three categorical propositions : in s. matthew there is a fourth put before two other , which is , woe to the world because of offences : which because my text omitteth i shall let it passe . of the three propositions in s. luke , the first is modall , and declareth the necessity of scandalls : it is impossible but that offences will come : the second foretells the wofull condition of scandalizers : woe unto them through whom they come : the third v. . aggravates that woe to them that scandalize one sort of persons called little ones , by an uneven comparison of their woe with a lesse , but a very grievous one : it were better &c. to begin with the first proposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in saint matthew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 often used by aristotle as equivalent to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : and it doth here void an unavoidable necessity . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to be or happen . that which most requires explication is the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated offences : which word is originally a greek word , but by use taken into our english language , as it is into the latine & other tongues : it is very frequent in the new testament : greek grammarians tell us that originally 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signified some part of a trap made to kill or catch wild beasts : hesychius in his lexicon , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , scandall , a part of mouse-traps . the greek scholiast on aristophanes his acharn : and suidas after him tell us that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , were certain crooked peeces of wood , unto which wild beasts coming ( because the bait was thereunto fastned , say some ) did cast downe on themselves , or cast themselves upon some frame of wood , by which they were hurt , killed , maimed , or made halte and so caught : and therefore they derive these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from halting which hapned to the basts that dashed on them . such accidents the prophet isaiah intimates to follow on the putting of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 isay. . v. . where foretelling that christ should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated by s. peter . pet. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he tells us that many shall stumble and fall , and be broken and be snared , and be taken : but what ever the originall of the word be , certain it is , that in the new testament it is synonymous to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that at which a man dasheth his foot , as rom. . . s. paul puts these two words as of the same sense , rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used as equivalent to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which signify a snare or toyle , by which in hunting wild beasts are taken . by which words the hebrew words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to fall ( to which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 most aptly answers ) and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 used psal. . . isai. . . . which signify a gin , or snare , are rendred by the apostle . out of that which hath bin said , we may easily perceive that a scandall in the notatiō of the word signifies such a block , piece of wood , stone or the like , at which a beast or man dashing or hiting themselves fall or otherwise catch harme , as by bruising maining , halting or the like . scandall then properly is applied to that wherby the body is hurt the laying of which is forbidden levit. . . and therefore a woe belongs to him that laies it . but here doubtlesse our saviour means not such a stumbling-block as hurts the body , but ( as it is commonly translated to signify ) such a one as whereby the mind or soule is harmed . now the harming of the mind is by causing griefe , and so rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is grieved , is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is scandalized , or stirring up anger , displeasure , enmity , as whē our saviour saith math. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that we may not scandalize them , that is , we may not provoke them to anger or enmity against us . but chiefly the mind or soule is harmed by committing sin , as the action of him that sate at meat in the idols temple became a scandall in emboldning others to cōmunicate with idolaters in idol-service . cor. . . . and balaam is said to teach balac to lay a stumbling block before the children of israel to eat things sacrificed to idols , and to commit fornication , revel . . . which hurt of the soule is by laying it open to gods wrath , and by defiling and wounding the conscience : and here is to be noted , that whereas in common use to offend is as much as to displease , in the scripture use he is said to be offended who is induced to sin , though he be pleased thereby : so that to offend , is not onely to displease , but also to harme the soule even by pleasing . now this laesio animi , hurting of the minde is sometimes by a meere object without , at which the person offended dasheth himselfe , and hurteth his soule , the thing which is the scandall acting nothing to move the person to harme himselfe , which therefore may not unfitly bee called an objective scandall . thus images , silver and gold are termed , ezek. . . the stumbling block of mens iniquity . so was the babylonish garment to achan , bathsheba's nakednesse to david , the altar of damascus to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; &c. such are to many others a glasse of wine , a wanton picture , a book of magick , and the like . now in this sort of scandall it is the person hurt that scandalizeth himselfe , as being active therein : and therefore most truly the scandall is in himselfe . in which respect s. iohn . epist. ch. . v. . tels us that hee that loveth his brother abideth in the light , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and a scandall is not in him , that is , hee doth not make his neighbours prosperity his brothers preferment , &c. to be a stumbling block to him to make him covetous , envious , &c. for the antithesis , v. . and the coherence of the text shew it to be meant not of scādall , whereby through defect of love a mā causeth another to stumble , but of scandall whereby a man may cause himself to fall for want of light in himselfe . and to the same purpose it is said in that parallel place , psal. . . great peace have they which love thy law , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and there is no stumbling blocke to them , that is , by reason of their adhering to gods law , outward objects become not scandall to them . sometimes the hurting of the soule is by the action of another , which i therefore call effective scandall , as ieroboams setting up the golden calves was a scādall to israel : davids sin a scandall in causing the enimies of the lord to blaspheme . now such actions may bee scandall three waies . . in potentia , in possibility onely , when the action is in it's nature scandalous , or in the intention of the agent , but not so in the event , because of the stedfastnesse and uprightnes of the person tempted . so was the action of iosephs mistris to ioseph . peters persuasion to our lord christ , mat. . . and this is termed scandalum datum , sed non acceptum , given but not taken . . in actu , actually . in the event , but not frō the nature of the action , or intent of the agent , but by accident by reason of the erroneous judgement , or evill disposition of the person scandalized , as christ's preaching of eating his flesh , and drinking his blood was a scandall , iohn . . . and the preaching of christ crucified is to carnall men . . cor. . . and is termed scandalum acceptū sed non datum , a scandall taken though not given . . in actu & per se , actually in the event , and of it selfe , that is from the nature of the action , as in davids sinne , . sam. . . or intent of the agent , as in balaams fact , rev. . . in ieroboam's fact , . kings . . . and this is termed , scandalum datum & acceptū : a scandall both taken and given . now although i conceive our saviour intended specially this last sort of sandalls in this place , they being the scandals by which a woe comes to the world , and a woe belongs to the authors of thē , yet i know no absurdity in it to extend this proposition in the handling of it to all those sorts of scandalls , by which the soules or minds of men are hurt . according to which the sense is this . it is impossible or it cannot bee otherwise , but that mens minds or soules will bee hurt with displicency , griefe , anger , enmities , sinns occasioned by outward objects & actions of men , which either by accident , or of themselves become scandalls to them . so that our saviours assertion is in briefe this : that while men live on earth there will certainly be offences and scandalls to the harm of mens soules . when our saviour tels us , mat. . . that in the consummation or end of the world , the sonne of man shall send his angells , and they shall gather out of his kingdome 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all scandalls , hee doth plainely intimate that till then there will bee scandals even in his church ; that the church in it's present condition on earth is but as a field in which wheat and tares grow together , scandals and good example : that it is a mixt company of good and bad ; wise , and foolish ▪ weake , & strong ; and therefore scandalls will arise . this necessitie of scandalls is . . in respect of the second causes . . in respect of the first & supreme cause of al things . the second causes are , . the persons scandalizing . . scandalized . . satan , who hath ever a finger in all mischievous things . . a necessity of scandalls is from scandalizers ; first , in generall from vitiousnesse of life which every where abounding makes scandals to abound . all sin against god is venemous : it being the very poyson of the old serpent . and all open sins are like the basilisk infecting those that come within the sight of them , unlesse well fenced with antidotes . it is so connatural to men , that they are ready not onely to take , but even to suck in the infection . faciles imitandis turpibus ac pravis omnes sumus . in opē sins scarse any man sins alone : specially if their persons bee eminent either in authoritie , dignitie , or any other reputed excellencie : one ieroboam is sufficient to make a whole kingdome to sin : the prophanenesse of one hophni is enough to cause a whole church to abhorre the offerings of the lord. and if persons be not scandalized with infectiou of open sinnes ; yet doubtlesse they will be with griefe of minde ; so that one way or another all open sins sinnes will beget scandalls , and therefore such sins being so many and so certaine , it cannot bee but that there should bee an innumerous brood of scandalls . . but besides vitiousnesse of life in generall , there are some speciall evills by which scandalls are multiplied . as . by malice . there are that doe data opera of set purpose lay snares for their brethren . it is the delight of some to be satans agents to harm the soules of their brethren , they sleep not except they have done mischiefe , and their sleepe is taken away unlesse they cause some to fall ▪ prov. . . balak hires balaam , balaam deviseth and teacheth balak to lay a stūbling block before the children of israel , rev. . . ionadab the sonne of shimeah directs ammon how to commit incest with his sister , . sam. . and these promoters of scandalls are likely none of the dullest , but the most active and subtill : satan hath wit enough to choose the ablest instruments for his purpose . they use craft , eloquence , diligence usque ad extremum virium , to the utmost of their power to further evill . so devoted they are to the divells service that he can have them ready to serue his turne at small wages , magna merces quieta movere . it 's wages enough for thē to doe hurt . their own disposition makes them active of their own accord . and this cause must needs be a fruitfull mother of scandalls . secondly , proud contempt of their brethren causeth many scandalls : while men sleight the harme of their brethren , that they may have their own wills : as those , rom. . . that despised thē that did not eat as themselves & those whose knowledge puffed up , as the apostle speakes , cor. . . thirdly , imprudence in many causeth scandalls : for so it may bee that men may by their speech and actions scandalize through ignorance , as s. peter did mat. . . nor are scandalls more avoidable , if wee consider the qualities of persons scandalized . for as some are prone to lay stumbling blocks , so others are as apt to stumble at them . first , generally unmortified , or prevalent corruptions dispose men to fall by scandals . silly women laden with sinne , led away with divers lusts , are easily deceived by those that have a forme of godlinesse but deny the power of it . . tim. . . and those that receive not the love of the truth , that they might be saved , but have pleasure in unrighteousnesse , are not onely by gods just judgement , but also by their owne propensitie ensnared by signes , lying wonders , deceaveablenesse of unrighteousnesse and strong delusions to believe lies . . thessal . . . . . . corrupt qualities make men like straw or tinder , the least sparke of evill example or counsell will set them on fire . yea bare objects if seen or heard of will overthrow them . a voluptuous man shall not need to be invited to sports , merriments &c. sponte sua properat , he runnes of his own accord , he will smell them out himselfe as a vultur doth a carcase . even as sores of the body will draw corrupt humors to them , so will vitious hearts make scandals to themselves . secondly . in speciall some particular sinnes make some accidents to become a stumbling block to them . enmity against our lord christ his person , impatience to be rebuked , false opinions from example of others , common conceit , weaknesse from ignorance , dulnesse to conceive , mistakes of his speeches , caused the pharises and others to stumble at christ and his words . math. . . mat. . . ioh. . . ioh. . . . spirituall pride made the iewes rom. . . to stumble at christ : ignorance of their brethrens liberty made those weake ones mentioned rom. . to stumble at their brethrens lawfull practise , & fearfulnesse of heart caused peter and the disciples to be offended upon christs apprehension . mat. . . even as a mist afore the eyes , mistake of the unevenesse of the way , hasty going , a sudden weaknesse , and many more such accidents may cause the body to stumble , that otherwise hath not any setled debilitating sicknesse : so in the minde many scandals may arise from alienations of minde , mis-reportes , mistakes &c. both of them that are habitually depraved by a corrupt lust , and also of them that are otherwise right hearted . nor may we forget the agency or working of satan , in assigning the causes of scandalls . for he is the primus motor , the first mover , the incendiary in all these mischievous things . it is his imployment to walke about seeking whom he may overthrow and devoure . he hath a trap for a iudas , a snare for a simon magus , a gin for ananias and sapphira . and he wants not a stumbling block for a david , a peter , or any of the best of gods saints . and these he laies thick , with much art and cunning , baiting each with his peculiar baite , that were it not for the wonderfull care of the almighty , by his preventing and sustaining grace , no man could escape overthrow by them : so that if we consider the second causes we see reason enough of the multitude of scandalls . let us raise our thoughts higher , from earth to heaven , from second to the first , from the subordinate to the supreme cause , and from thence we shall see a reason of the necessity of scandalls . the prediction of them by god proves the necessity of them , for gods prescience cannot be deceived . but these following texts of scripture doe import more then a necessity by prescience , to wit , a necessity by appointment or ordinance of gods will : and voluntas dei est rerum necessitas , it 's an axiom in the schooles , gods will is the necessity of things : christ is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence , even to them which stumble at the word being disobedient , whereunto also they are appointed , saith s. peter . . ep. ch . . . behold i lay in sion a stumbling stone and rock of offence . rom. . . god hath given them the spirit of slumber , &c. rom. . . . and for this cause god shall send them strong delusions , that they should believe a lye . . thes. . . so that what ever be the way , it is from god that scandalls fall out : and therefore there is a necessity of them . but we may here aske with the apostle , rom. . . have they stumbled that they should fall ? are scandals ordered by god onely for the ruine of men ? doubtlesse no : there are other ends aimed at by god in the event of scandals , both in respect of him selfe , & of men . in respect of himselfe he orders the happening of scandals to become subservient to the fulfilling of his owne counsell . pharoahs stumbling was made an occasion to shew gods power , exod. . . and the disobedience of hophni and phinchas for the inflicting of gods just vengeance , . sam. . . & the unbeliefe of the iewes , the shewing mercy to the gentiles , rom. . . . in all of them there is a depth of wisdome , riches of knowledge in god , who by unsearchable judgements and undiscernable paths , brings his owne counsells to passe , v. . though wee know not how , nor why god doth permit such pernicious evils as scandals in thēselves be , yet the almighty whose thoughts are above our thoughts , whose waies are higher then our waies doth know . this wee are to hold as certaine . god lets nothing , no not scandals to fall out without excellent , though unsearchable wisdome , for righteous and good , though undiscernable ends ? and yet god doth not so conceale this matter , but that wee so far know his minde , that hee intends scandals , as for the intrapping of false hearted disobedient persons , so for the probation of thē that are sincere : the wōders and signes of false prophets , and dreamers of dreames were permitted sometimes to come to passe , to try whether wee love the lord our god with all our heart , & with all our soule . deut. . . and oportet esse haereses , there must be also heresies that they which are approved may be made manifest , . cor. . . and in the businesse of the embassadours of the princes of babylon , who sent unto hezekiah to inquire of the wonder that was done in the land , god left him to try him , that he might know all that was in his heart , . chron. . . so that one while god discovers a secret hypocrite ; another while manifests the hidden corruption or weaknesse that is evē in a godly person . here he lets a stumbling block be the destruction of an obdurate sinner , there it becomes to bee the witnesse of the faith , obedience , patience aud constancy of an upright believer . s. augustines saying is received in schooles , nisi esset hoc bonum ut essent & mala , nullo modo esse sinerentur ab omnipotente bono : unlesse this were good that there should be evills , they would by no means be suffered to be by the omnipotent good . nor is the laying of scandals lesse evill in man , because god permits them to be for righteous & good ends . for however they bee ordered by good intendmēts in god , yet they proceed from evill principles in men : and therefore are no whit the lesse vitious in men , because by accident to their intentions good is willed by god. as when it is said of iosephs brethren , gen. . . they thought evill against him , though god meant it unto good , their sin was not the lesse because gods goodnesse was the greater . for application of this truth . . from hence we may frame some answer to those that accuse religion by reason of the scandalls that are given by them that professe it . if scandals fall out among protestants , presently the papists inferre , that we are not the true church , the separatist that we are but an antichristian synagogue , the libertine , and carnall worldling , that those that professe more piety , then themselves affect , are but a sort of hypocrites . as if where there fall out any dissentions between the teachers , any evill practises in the schollers , there could be no true doctrine , nor good men , nor holy society . but these inferences are indeed nothing else but the unjust accusations of malitious minds . for if malice did not blind them , they might by the same medium conclude against themselves , there being no sort of men among whom evill practises doe not happen . even among the disciples of christ there was a theefe , in the first church of christians there were a paire of sacrilegious hypocrites , in the best churches there were dissentions , variances , and corruptions . the worst that can be hence inferred is that no church on earth is pure without mixture of drosse , that wheat and tares grow together untill the harvest . they that imagine a church on earth without scandalls in life , without corruption in discipline doe but fancy an vtopia , an idea of a church in their braines , which neither is nor ever will be in rerum naturâ . we have wherewith abundantly to justify our religion and church notwithstanding the accidents of scandalls , in that they are condemned in our doctrine , punished in our governement , disclaimed by most , practised by few . but that they are necessary by reason of mens corruptions , and satans working even where there is true religion , true church , true godlinesse , it 's enough to answer them , that from the event of scandals would argue , that our religion is not true , or our church false , or our piety hypocrisy . a better use of this point is to take occasion to acknowledge & magnify the wise and gratious providence of god in ordering of scandalls . that there should be multitudes and multiplicities of scandals in the world , that every where satan should , i say not lay , but sow , and that thick too , snares and gins to catch the saints by the heeles , that over and besides the world , both good and bad should cast stumbling-blocks in our way , either wittingly or by imprudence , & withall naturall corruption be so apt to be busy with them , and yet the saints escape hell , get to heaven , sometimes without any dangerous falls , sometimes without any wounds , this is the admirable and gratious providence of god alone . it 's a thousand times more then to passe by the mouth of a hundred pieces of ordinance discharged against a man , and yet be unhurte , to break through the host of philistins with safety , to walk on high pinacles & not to fall downe headlong , to saile in the most rough and dangerous seas , to shoote the most perilous gulfs , and yet arrive in safety at the haven . the psalmist psal. . extolles the immense goodnesse of god in his preservation of men from many dangers : but none of them all is equall to this of the delivery of his people from scandalls , & therefore none deserves greater thanks : on the other side , that the almighty so orders it , that the obdurate sinner is insnared by scandalls to his perdition , yet no injustice , no fault in god , this is the wonder of gods providence , to be entertained by us with the apostles exclamation . o altitudo ! o the depth of the riches both of the wisdome and knowledge of god. rom. . . but then though it be the ever-vigilant providence of god , that preserves the saints from ruine by scandalls , and his just judgemēt that leaves the wicked to his own perdition to be caught by them ; yet this excludes not , but requires care in the godly to take heed of them , and condemnes the impiety of the wicked in yeelding themselves to stumble at thē . for it is the vitiousnesse of the one , that makes scandalls to be actually such to him , & the holy wisdome of the other , whereby god keeps him from being overthrown by them : wherefore it behoves them to learne to walke circumspectly , not as fooles but as wise . ephe. . . and to this end , . to get as much spirituall prudence as they can to discerne them , to be acquainted with their own hearts by frequent examination , by through-knowledge of their naturall corruption , to be well seen in the wils and methods , and artifices of satan , whereby he seekes to deceive and devoure , to know the dispositions of wicked men , and weaknesse of good men whom satan may work by . . to be ever sober , and watchfull , not laid a sleep by any lust of our hearts , any pride & selfe-confidence , or the like , as david , hezekiah , peter , &c. were , when they were scandalized . . that we study constantly in gods law , and cleave to it with upright hearts , which is a sure antidote against this poison of scandalls ; for great peace have they which love thy law , and nothing shall offend them . psal. . . that as we have one eye still to our way that we stūble not , so the other still on god in fervent praier to him , who alone can , and will keep us when we seek him . lastly , sith notwithstanding all the vigilancy and warinesse of a christian , scandals will be till the sonne of man shall send forth his angels , and they shall gather out of his kingdome all things that offend , and them which doe iniquity . mat. . . the righteous must learne with patience and longing desire , to expect the comming of the son of man. even as the husband-man waiteth for the pretious fruit of the earth , so must they be patient unto the comming of the lord. iames . . till then there will be cause for them to be exercised , in humbling themselves , and mourning for the dishonour of god by scandalls ; as lot vexed his righteous soule with hearing and seeing the deeds of the sodomites , & to possesse their soules in hope and assurance that christ will come , and bind up satan , & remove all scandalls , and perfect his church , that they may follow the lambe whither soever he goeth . cap. . of the woe belonging to scandalizers in generall . having handled the first proposition concerning the necessity of scandalls , the second followes concerning the woefull condition of scandalizers , which is delivered elleiptically by s. luke , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by saint matthew fully , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , woe be to that man by whom the scandall cometh , or is ; for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : which proposition the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 neverthelesse , shews to be added in manner of a prolepsis : for whereas it might be urged , if there be a necessity of offences , then they are no faults , nor punishable ; our saviour seems to deny this consequence by telling us , that though they be necessary , yet they be voluntary in the scandalizers , who are therefore culpable , and punishable , woe unto him through whom they come . saint hierome in his commentary on math. . conceives that in this speech our saviour specially pointed at iudas . t is true that christ doth pronounce a woe to iudas mat. . . but that these words in my text should either aime at iudas his particular fact , or be restrained to his scandalous action , agrees not with the words , which speak of woe or evill redundant 〈…〉 to the world by offences : not one offence , and of scandalizing indefinitely any of those litle ones that believe in him . wherefore the meaning is , woe , that is misery or evill shall befall him by whom the offence cometh , who ever he be . and the conclusion that it affords is this , that misery belongs to him that is the cause of scandalls , or as in s. mathew in that paralel place mat. . . woe shall be to that man by whom the offence commeth . to declare which truth we are distinctly to expresse . . what scandalizers this woe belongs to . . what the woe is which is pronoūced against thē . . why it is that they incur this woe . in answer to the first , we are to consider , that that by which scandall comes is not a bare object , but a person , ( woe be to that man , as it is in s. mathew ) and that as an agent in causing scandall . . that sometimes a mā may be a scandalizer in overthrowing himselfe . as is manifest by that speech of our saviour , mat. . . if thy hand or thy foot scandalize , or offend thee , cut them off . that is as interpreters conceive , if thy lust , or will cause thee to sin , deny them . for mens own carnall reason , the lusts of their own hearts doe ofttimes cause them to fall , or to goe away . an instance is the example of the psalmist , ps. . . whose feet were almost gone , his foot-steps had wellnigh slipt . for he was envious at the foolish , whē he saw the prosperity of the wicked : his own understanding had in a sort tripped up his heeles , or scandalized him . and this sort of scandalizing may not unfitly be called internall ▪ or immanent , and is so far from being excluded here , that our saviour by subjoyning to the words , mat. . . woe to that man by whom the offence commeth , presently in the . ver . if thy hand scandalize thee cut it off , ( which is meant of this inward scandall ) seemes to have plainely intended it : and therefore s. chrysostome in his homily on math. . calls the scandals here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all hinderances of the right way , whether from within or without . and indeed a woe doth undoubtedly belong to all such , as by their own vaine imagination , their own evill affections doe overthrow themselves ; when as s. iames speaks , a man is drawn away of his own lust and entised : for as it followes , then when lust hath conceived it bringeth forth sinne , and sinne when it is finished bringeth forth death . accordingly occasion might be taken hence to consider the waies of selfe-scandalizing , which are in a manner infinite , and to shew the woe consequent to them , and to give directions to prevent this danger . but this is besides my purpose in handling this text , and an immense taske : it must be to shew the deceites of every sinne , its manner of working &c. and therefore letting this thing passe only with this admonition , that it behooves every christian to be jealous of his own heart , and to watch it narrowly , lest it prove a iudas to him , and how deare so ever his lust , or imagination be to him , yet it must be cut off , that it scandalize him not , remembring the counsell of our saviour , that it is better without them to enter into heaven , then with them to be cast into hell fire . . that sometimes and that most commonly , scandalizing is a transeunt action , and he is said to cause offence , that harmes another by his action , and this may be called externall or transeunt scandall . and this is undoubtedly here meant , for he speaks here of scandalizing one of these litle ones that believe in him , and of such scandall as whereby a woe comes to the world , that is to the societies & rankes of men . and this sort of scandalizing is it which i intend to treat of . . that of this sort of scandalizing diverse definitions are given . there is this definition or description in tertullian his book de velandis virginibus , where he defines scandall , exemplum rei non bonae aedificans ad delictum , an example of a thing not good building to sin : which description though it doe not unfitly expresse what is the scandall which is by evill example , yet doth it not sufficiently comprize all sorts of scandalizing another , v. g. not the scandalizing by abuse of our liberty in things indifferent , nor that which is by persecution . that definition which the schoole-men as aqu. a. ae . q. . art . . doe cōmōly follow taken from s. hierome comment . in math. . is more fit to comprize all sorts of scandall to another . scandalum est dictum vel factum minùs rectum , praebens alteri occasionem ruinae ; that is , scandall is a saying or deed , lesse or not right , occasioning ruine to another . this definition is good enough , saving that the terme of ruine being a metaphor ( and according to aristotles rule in his topicks 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all metaphors are obscure ) is unfit for a definition till explained : wherefore it is needfull we should shew more plainly what is meant by ruine in this definition . by ruine , or falling , is doubtlesse meant here not corporall ruine or falling of the body , but spirituall ruine or the falling of the minde . now this spirituall ruine is primarily understood of falling into sinne , whether it be greater , as apostacy from the faith , heresy , infidelity , idolatry or the like ; or lesser as by causing a slower progresse in religion , unchearfulnesse therein , impediment to any other duty a christian or an unbeliever should doe . if any be asked whether any griefe or displicency of mind , or anger , which are the effects of scandall , as is before shewed may be called ruine of another , according to this definition ? whereto i answer : the griefe displicency or anger that ariseeth from another mans saying or deed , is sometimes just and necessary , when the words or deeds be manifestly evill ; such was the griefe of the corinthians for the scandall of the incestuous person ; our saviours indignation at the hardnesse of the pharisees hearts : such was the griefe or vexation of righteous lot , in hearing and seeing the ungodly deeds of the sodomites , davids griefe because men kept not gods law. and this griefe is a necessary duty in them that mourne , but a sinne and scandall in them that cause it . a ruine therefore it cannot be said to be in the primary sense , as ruine imports falling into sin , but ruine it may be said to be in a secondary sense , as ruine imports any affliction of the soule ; and with this explication the terme [ ruine ] may fitly enough expresse the effect of this scandall . sometimes the sorrow , displicencie , and anger that ariseth in the person offended , from the sayings and deeds of another are unjust , both in him that is offended , and in him that offends : this is when a man is grieved at the use of another mās lawfull liberty in things indifferent by reason of his owne weaknesse of faith , thinking that to be unlawfull which is not ; as those that were offended at their brethrens neglect of daies , and difference of meats , rom. which thing is unjust in him that is thus offended , and it is also unjust in him that offends , when without charity to his brother he heeds not , as he ought , the avoiding of grieving his brother contrary minded . and this griefe may be called , ruine of the person offended , not only in the secondary sense , but also in the primary sense , occasioning not only griefe , but also uncharitable judging , dis-union , or diminution of affections , & sometimes further sins . sometimes the griefe is unjust in the person offended , but not in the person offending . as many were offended at our saviours , and the apostles preaching , which yet were their necessary duties ; such persons were not only angred , but sometimes forsook them and their fellowship , by reason of such preaching , and so the preaching was a scandall to them , and a ruine , both in the primary and secondary sense , but through their own default ; and therefore unjustly on their part . with this explication i conceive the definition given to be sufficient , and right enough . . that sinnes of thought are not scandalls , unlesse they break out into acts , whether of wordes or deeds . if smothered or stayed within they are sinnes , but not scandals . that then an offence is said to come by a man , either when his intention is to harme his brother by his fact , as balaam did revel . . . or the nature and quality of the fact is apt to harme others , as in s. peters advice , math. . . in either of these two cases it is scandalum datum , or active scandall , and the man that is the agent in such facts or words , is one by whom the offence cōmeth . but if a man doe his duty and men are scandalized , if the offence were neither intended by the agent of the fact , nor come from the nature of the action , but from the ill disposition of him that is offended , it is to be conceived to be only ex accidente , accidentally , to him whose action did offend , and therefore it is in relation to him only scandalum passivum , a passive scandall , non datum sed acceptum , not given by him , but taken by the offended party , who is thereby the scandalizer of himselfe , or he by whom the offence cometh . our saviours discourse concerning the eating of his flesh , offended the capernaites iohn . . . but this was not by reason of christs sermon , which was of a necessary truth : but from their own perverse ignorance . in like manner the pharisees were offended at christs doctrine concerning the cause of defilement . math. . . but of this scandall not our saviours doctrine , but their owne malice was the proper cause . the fact of the reubenites offended the other tribes iosh. . . . . but this was through their own mistake . now the woe here denounced belongs not to those through whose actions scandall comes by accident : but those that give , or cause scandall , either in their intention , or according to the nature , quality , or manner of their action . so that , that to which this woe belongs , is not an object , but an agent , not only as scandalizing himselfe , but another , not by an action of the imagination , but of word or deed , bringing ruine to another , either in a primary or secondary sense , not by accident , but eyther by direct intention , or by reason of the nature , quality , or manner of the action . in answer to the second quaere . the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or woe is used in our saviours sayings to signifie some grievous judgement or calamity , both temporall , as mat. . . the woe denounced to the pharisees is expressed v. . to bee the damnation of hell . and that this woe is here denounced to scandalizers appeares by the aggravation in the . verse , where to have a milstone hanged about his necke , and to be cast into the sea , is made lesse than the woe here denounced to the scandalizer , and mat. . . when our saviour had said , woe ' to the man by whom the offēce commeth , he addes immediatly v. . that the hand offending should be cut off , that the scandalizer by retaining his two hands , be not cast into hell fire . hell fire or the damnation of hell is the chiefe and greatest woe due to the scandalizer . but besides it there 's a woe also of temporall death awarded sometimes to scandalizers . for this reason was balaam the sonne of peor slaine with the sword num. . . that god might be avenged of him for his practise in teaching balaak to lay a stumbling block before the children of israel . elies sons sinned greatly in their scandalous facts : for men abhorred the offering of the lord , . sam. . . the issue was , they were both slaine by the philistins in one day . likewise other temporall woes on their soules , bodies , names , estates , posterity , &c. are inflicted by god on scandalizers . thus was david filled with trouble of soule for his sin in the matter of vriah , by which he caused the enemies of the lord to blaspheame , so that hee was faine to beg hard for restitution of joy & comfort , psal. . . . and the incestuous corinthian was so plunged over head and eares in sorrow that hee was almost drown'd with it . . cor. . . hee was cast out of the church , delivered over to satan . david for the fore-named sin was haunted with griefes in his children almost to his dying day , and it stil lies as a blot upon his name . the priests that make others stumble at the law , and threatned with contemptiblenesse , malac. . . . no active scandall scapes scot-free , there 's none veniall , every one hath it's measure of woe ; yet not all alike . for some of these scandalls are more heinous then others , and therefore incurre a greater woe . as for instance , some scandalls consist in facts in their kind evill , and these are worse than other scandalls which arise onely from the abuse of our liberty , in things lawfull . the scandall of elies sonnes in respect of the foule nature of their facts was worse then than the scandall of the strong in faith by the eating of meats with offence , mentioned . rom. . . some scandalls are worse than other , ratione causae , in respect of the cause from whence they arise . as scandalls from malice , and subdolous intents are worse than those that arise from ignorance and imprudence ; balaams scandall by devising and counselling balak how to intrap the israelites was worse than peters advising of christ to desist from his purpose of going to hierusalem to suffer . some scandalls are worse then others in regard of the eminency of the person offending ; because they bring a greater staine to the profession , and become a greater danger to men , apt to stumble : thus davids sinne in the matter of vriah the hittite was greater then the sinne of the adulteresse mentioned io. . the scandalous fact of a clergy-man worse then of the people , of a magistrate than a subject , of a noble person than one of the commons . vbi sublimior praerogativa ibi major culpa . saith salvian , where the dignity is higher , the fault is the greater . . in respect of the issue and event of the scandall , some scandals are worse than others , as when the event with a litle heed might have bin foreseen , when the issue is not only the alienation or grieving of another , but also apostasy of some , hardening of others , occasioning others to blaspheame the name of god , to inveigh against the truth , gospell , religion , &c. thus the incestuous corinthians fact was worse than the fact of those that eat with offence to their brethren things offered to the idols . . in respect of the number and quality of persons scandaliz'd , the scandals of some are worse then of others . for it is worse to scandalize many than few , weake christians than stronger &c. so that these and such like considerations vary much the degree of the sinne of scandalizing , and consequently of the woe due it . yet so that none , but hath it's woe allotted to it . in answer to the third question . the reasons of this woe awarded to scandalizers are taken . from the nature of the sinne . for all scandalizing though but by abuse of our liberty in things indifferent is against charity , as the apostle teacheth . rom. . . for true charity should move us to serve , and helpe , and sustaine one another , gal. . . not to harme deject and grieve one another . now the law of charity is a fundamentall law , the law of christ , gal. . . and therefore in this respect scandalizing is a sinne against our brother , and against christ , . cor. . . wherefore according to the rules of equity he that regards not to shew love to others , deserves to be deprived of favour and love himselfe ; there being no rule more equall than that of our saviour , mat. . . with what measure yee meet it shall be measured to you againe . but when the scandalizing is not by ignorance , but wittingly and willingly , then it is much more against charity , and therefore justly deserves a greater woe . as when men scandalize of set purpose either as the pharisees that under pretence of long prayers and fasting devoure widdow●s houses , by their shew of devotion gayned proselytes , and made them two-fold more the children of hell than themselves . mat. . . . or as our saviour sayes of false prophets that put on sheeps cloathing , but inwardly are ravening wolves . mat. . . or foxes in the deserts . ezek. . . they shall receive the greater damnation , in that not only virtually , but formally , not only privatively , but also positively they sinne against charity . adde hereunto that if the scandalous fact be such an act as is in it's nature an enormous sinne , which though it were done never so secretly , yet it would highly provoke god : then it is to speake with the apostle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 excessively sinfull , in that it is both a grievous transgression , and a grievous scandall , and consequently compound iniquity . in which respect the sin of hophni and phinehas in their violent profanations , & their outragious abusing of women even before the tabernacle of the congregation , was very great before the lord , for men abhorred the offering of the lord. . sam. . . and davids deed in defileing bathsheba , and murdering her husband was exceeding greivous , in that he gave occasion to the enemies of the lord to blaspheame . . sam. . . . from the effects of it . the immediate and principall effect of scandalls is the harme of our brothers soule , by wounding their conscience , as the apostle speaks . cor. . . and quantum ad scandalizantem , as much as pertaines to the scandalizer the destruction of him , for whom christ dyed , as the same apostle speaks . . cor. . . rom. . . i say not that every soule that is scandalized doth eventually perish , nor doe i meddle with the dispute concerning christs intention in dying for them that perish : but this i say that he that scandalizeth a soule , for w ch , for ought he knowes christ dyed , and for which hee is to conceive christ died , and thereby moves him to turne into the way of perdition , doeth for so much as concerns his action , cause his brother to perish for whom christ died , although hee neither in the event perish not , nor christ in his intention offered up himselfe as a sacrifice to his father to appease his wrath for him . for it is meerely ex accidenti by accident to the scandalizers action , that either his brother perished not , or christ died not for him . even as he that maliciously intending to wound iason , phaeraeus did by accident cure him of an apostem , his fortune was admirable , but his malice nothing lesse in his wound by that accident . surely every man ought to bee tender of his brothers soule that it perish not by his action . and if notwithstanding his scandalous fact yet hee perish not , this cōmends gods goodnesse , but lessens not his naughtinesse . every man ought to bee tender of the soule of his brother , as if he were certain christ died for him , when in appearance to him christ died for him , and hee that is not so , is injurious to christ , whether christ intended to dye for the person scandalized or no : even as he that does a thing lawfull , which his owne conscience judgeth unlawfull , sinnes damnably , as if the thing were in it selfe unlawfull rom. . . now doeth not he that cares not to destroy anothers soule deserve to have his owne soule lost ? should his soule bee regarded by god , that makes no account of his brothers ? if a cain or iudas betray or destroy anothers life , who is aggrieved that they loose theirs ? if a monstrous caligula be so minded that he hee care not though all mens heads were off so that his might stay on , who can except against god for letting vengeance loose upon him ? adde hereunto that besides the principall and immediate effect of scandals many other evills by breach of charity , contentions , schismes &c. follow upon them , which as they bring woe to the world , so doth the woe brought on others justly rebound on the head of him that casts it . for application of this truth . . that which hath been said manifests unto us both the sinfulnesse and the danger of those that heed not their wayes to avoyde scandalizing of others , that watch not over their words or actions least they cause others to stumble . it is not to bee denied but that there are some who through overfearfullnesse of giving scandall , doe omit things fit for them to doe , which ariseth through want of knowing in what cases scandall is to bee feared , in what not , out of imprudence in not discernning the difference of persons . this errour is the more pardonable in that it likely comes not out of an evil disposition , but out of a tender conscience , joyned with a weak understanding . nor likely doth it procure other hurt than the lessening of the esteem of the person scrupulous , & the exposing him to contempt and derision , in some , to pitty in others ; excepting when such scrupulosity causeth disobedience to the necessary commands of governours , or breeds superstition , or the like evils . yet this is an evill in that it is an errror , and somewhat intrencheth on gods prerogative , in making that to bee sin , which he hath not made sin : and therefore is to bee shunned , not to be cherished . but such likely are but few . the most of people mind and prosecute their pleasure , profit , credit , preferment , content , &c. but litle or nothing regard what scandall followes thereon , many are of that impetuous resolutiō that they will have their sports not unlawfull in themselves , though they will certainly occasion drunkennesse , quarrelling , blood-shed , idlenes , undoing of families , and such like evils . so that in a sort they resolve like unto that pope , who said that hee would have his dish of meat in spight of god , so these are bent to have their sports in spight of their brethren ; yea and of god too , that commands them not to offend their brethren . and as men are affected to their pleasure , so they are to their profits , preferments , credit , ends , yea their vaine customes . so violent is the streame of their wills , that they will have their course , although they not only overthrow many lives , and states , but also drowne many soules in perdition . too too many are of cains mind , who when he was demanded of god , where his brother was answered angerly gen. . . am i my brothers keeper ? they care not whether they sinke or swimme , their consciences be whole or wounded , they stumble or goe upright , they perish or be saved , would it could be truely said that there were no ministers of the gospell , no magistrates , no parents , no masters , that by their courses shew that they make light account of the stumbling of mens soules , so they may have their will ? surely there should bee ( if there were any sparke of true charity in men ) a zeale to the good of their brethrens soules , and accordingly of some to have compassion , putting a difference , and others to save with feare , pulling them out of the fire : hating even the garment spotted by the slesh , that it may not infect others . iude . . knowing that hee which converts a sinner from the errour of his way shall save a soule from death , and shall hide a multitude of sinnes . iames . . but alas : so great is the vitious selfe-love of men that for their owne pleasures , profit , preferment , vaine glory , and such like ends , they draw innumerable soules into hell with them , sometimes by perverting their faith , sometimes by corrupting their devotions , sometimes by vitiating their manners , and yet as if they were all popes no man must say unto them what doest thou ? to omit other instances of lesse account . to maintaine the great idoll of latter ages the papall monarchy . what grosse superstitions have been maintained , what practises have been devised , and used to the seducing of whole nations of people , holding them in blindnesse and superstition to their perdition , yea to the reproach of the religion of christ even by iewes , turks , and infidels ; it were infinite to relate . how carelesse many others are to scandalize milions of soules that they may attaine to , or maintain secular greatnesse , i forbeare to speak it being too manifest to the world . all which dispositions and practises , how damnable they be , oh that men would consider , that they may prevent the woe here denounced by our saviour , and take heed how they slight their brothers spirit , lest they draw downe eternall vengeance on themselves from the father of spirits , and by valuing at so low a rate their brothers soule , make the market cheap for their owne . wherefore in the second place we are to be admonished , that as we are to look to our feet that we stumble not our selves , so to take heed to our actions that they overthrow not others . the almighty hath forbidden in his law to curse the deafe , and to put a stumbling block before the blind . levit. . . it being an unworthy , and injurious thing to take advantage from weaknesse , to hurt those whom humanity , & reason should cause us to helpe . but it is a thousand times more injurious and cruell , to lay a stumbling block before mens soules , in as much as the danger of a soules falling is incomparably greater then the ruine of the body . surely he that hath any estimation of the preciousnes of a soule , any love to it , any compassion , any sense of the evill of a soules perdition , ought to be most tender of doing it any hurt , ready to doe it any good . wherefore it concernes us to be watchfull over our words and actions appearing to men , that they become not scandalls . we are to look heedily to our thoughts , that we be not found hypocrites before god , and to every action we doe that we may keep our peace with god : but for a farther reason we are to look to those that are in the view of the world , as it were on the stage . we are to be carefull of our privy thoughts , as knowing that god sees us ; and hates all uncleannesse , in the inward parts . but of our open actions we are to be carefull for a double reason , because god sees them , and men too ; so that we may not only grieve gods spirit , but also hurt mens soules , if they be not right . for as there be likely some who as ieremiah speaks of himselfe , ierem. . . will waite for our halting if in any thing we stumble , that they may reproach us : so there are others , whom we shall probably make to halt to their ruine , if we cast any stumbling block before them . besides we may safely conceive , that they are carelesse of their own soules , that are not carefull to prevent the scandall of other mens soules : and that in foveam incident , quam foderint , they shall by divine justice fall into the pit themselves , who have digged it for others . wherefore that we may not scandalize others , let us learne , . to feare god as we are commanded levit. . . thou shalt not put a stumbling block before the blind , but shalt feare thy god : i am the lord. for he that feares god will not put a stumbling block before his brother , sith he is sure thereby to incurre woe , and displeasure of god. scandalizing consists not with gods feare . . to love our brethren , with which scandalizing consists not . for how can he be said to love his brother , who spreads a net for his feet : especially when he insnares his soule ? and this is sure , that he which loves not his brother loves not god but walkes in darknesse . . iohn . . . . . to get uprightnesse of heart , that thou maist walk uprightly , and this will prevent both stumbling in thy selfe , and scandalizing of others . for he that is not right-hearted , though he may in some things for a time doe well , as iehu did , yet sooner or later he will stumble or fall . even as a lame horse while he is heated will goe well enough , but when he cooles will halt downe-right : even so an hypocrite though for a time he may goe on fairely in his way ; yet in the conclusion likely , when he hath attained his ends , he falls foulely . as iehu that seemed to be zealous for the lord , untill he had gotten the kingdome of israel , but in the end shewed his hypocrisy by serving ieroboams golden calves . now such a one will surely become a stumbling block and that a permanent one . wherefore as it is necessary for our appearing before god with boldnesse , that we get upright hearts , so likewise for our living unblameably , and inoffensively to our neighbours . lastly to get wisdome and prudence to consider the dispositions of men , who are apt to be scandalized , and the due circumstances and consequences of our actions , that they may be none occasion offence . in all our dealings that are obvious to men we must shew our selves innocent as doves , wise as serpents , in malice children , in understanding men . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by sinfull example . how grievous an evill active scandalizing is in the generall hath bin declared . but because things that are more confuse in the genus , appeare more distinct in the species , my purpose is to consider the severall brāches of active scandalizing , that we may the better discerne the sinne and danger of scandalizing . active scandalizing is two waies ; one , when a man in his actions , intending only to have his own will or lust , regards not the ruine of another by his action , & this may be called exemplary scandalizing , or scandall by example , and of this kind of scandall there are two sorts . the first is when the example is in a thing in its nature evill , and this may not unfitly be called scandall by sinfull example . the second is when the scandall is in a thing lawfull otherwise , as being in its nature indifferent , but by want of charity abused so , as that harme comes to another , and this may be called scandalizing , in the abuse of things indifferent . the other way of scandalizing is when an action is done for this particular intent , that other mens soules may be harmed , chiefly in drawing them to sinne . and this may be called scandalizing by devised practise : which likewise is of two sorts : one when by inticeing means , as by coūsells , perswasions , placing objects before men , and the like , men are overthrowne ; and this may be called , scandall by enticing practises . the other when by terrifying wayes men are scandalized , and this may be called , scandall by persecution . according to this distribution in this method i shall speake . . of scandalizing by evill example . . of scandalizing by abuse of our liberty in things indifferēt . . of scandalizing by enticing practises , . of scandalizing by persecution . that sinfull example begets scandall needs not proofe ; experience of all times proves it too abundantly . and that position of solomon is plaine , prov. . . in the transgression of an evill man there is a snare , or scandall . for these two words are equivalent , as was declared before . a snare whereby to insnare himselfe and to harme others . whereupon it is that solomon adviseth prov. . . that we should make no friendship with an angry man nor goe with a furious man , lest we learne his wayes , and get a snare to our soule . so that the evill example of angry and furious men becomes a snare or scandall to mens soules , who goe with them . wherefore we may safely apply the woe of my text to this scandalizing , and conclude . that misery belongs to those that scandalize others by sinfull example . the wages of sinne indefinitely is death rom. . . even that death which is opposite to eternall life to wit eternall death of body & soule in hell fire . which is much more due when it is not onely a sin but also a sinfull example , & a scandal by sinfull example . but besides this eternall woe , that temporal woe belongs to it also , the story of the misery of hophni and phinehas , of david & others for their scandalls by sinfull example doth plentifully shew . to explaine this point more fully we are to consider , . what actions of sinful exāple doe scandalize . . how they doe scandalize . . why a woe belongs to such . to give answer to the first quaere , i say . that in this sort of scandalizing , the action scandalizing is that which is of it selfe sinfull , that is such as is prohibited by god to be done . for this is the difference betweene this and the next sort of scandalizing , that this sort of scandalizing would bee sinfull in gods sight , though no man were offended by it , and therefore when it becomes a scandall it is a double sin , . as it is such a kind of act as is forbidden by god. . as it occasions the ruine of another , as davids murther had been a sin if never knowne , but scandalizng others , it became a double iniquity . the next sort of scādalizing is in an action not evill of it selfe , but by reason of scandall , so that were it no scandall it would bee no sin , as the sin of the strong in faith mentioned rom. . in eating indifferently any sort of meat had beene no sin , the thing being in it selfe indifferent , had not the weake in faith been thereby offended . . it is requisite that the action scandalizing bee knowne . for privy actions doe not scandalize . actions doe scandalize tanquam objectum à quo , as an outward motive , that provokes the mind ; now such provocation cannot be but by the knowledge of it ; i meane knowledge of the act , though perhaps the person scandalized know not the sinfulnesse of it , but rather the ignorance of the sinfulnesse of it , may be the cause that it doth insnare him . perhaps it may be asked whether the living may be scandalized by the actions of them that are dead ? i answere , yes doubtlesse , though they were dead many ages before . solomons sin in hearkning to his wives , and furthering their idolatry , became a scandall to the succeeding kings of iudah ; and ieroboams setting up the golden calves , was the scandall of the kings of israel that followed him in many generations . as the remembrance of the vertues of ancestours , may provoke posterity to doe worthily , and thereby their memory be blessed as it is , prov. . . so the remembrance of the cruelty , tyranny , and such like vices of ancestours doth oft times revive their sinnes in their children , & cause their names to rot , and to stinke above ground , when their bodies are low enough in the ground . as the valour of miltiades at marathon stories report , provoked themistocles to doe great exploits , and the relation of achilles his prowesse inflamed the mind of alexander the great , so the memoriall of sylla taught caesar to oppresse his countrey . for which reason it concernes all that desire to doe good to those that come after them , to leave a good name behind thē , least the evill savour of their bad example infect the world in many generations . possibly it may be yet farther asked , whether sinfull omissions of things wee should doe , may become scandalls ? i answere , yes ; experience shewes that the remissenes of great schollers in duties of godlinesse , is often the cause of coldnesse & lukewarmenesse in religion in others that leane much on their example : the negligence of governours in frequenting gods service , causeth many times the subjects to think there 's no necessity of constancy and diligence therein . so that he that would not scandalize his brother , must not only be free from open sins of commission , but also from sinnes of omission . for answer to the second quaere i say , that scandalizing by evill example doth harme the minds of others unto their ruine many waies . . because it provokes men to the imitation of that particular sinne in which the scandall is , whereby their soules are harmed . thus s. peter by not communicating with the gentiles , drew barnabas in like manner to iudaïze with him . gal. . . the example of an eminent person is never single , if such a one doe evill he carries with him others , as the stream doth that which floats upon it . iter efficax per exempla , saith seneca , the most prevalent way of drawing men is by examples , by which men are guided more than by lawes or reasons . in evill things examples are most forcible , sith they agree with our naturall lusts : men need not to be urged to them , they learne them of thēselves at the first sight , ut vident , pereunt . . the sinfull example of men becomes a scandall to others , it that it hardens them in the sins they have committed . for the deceitfulnesse of sin , so infatuats mens hearts as that they are ready to imagine the sinne of another man to be a good excuse or plea for their owne . as it is said by the prophet ezek . . . that iudah had by her abominations justified samaria in all her sinnes . not as if the sinne of one man could be in truth a sufficient plea to acquit another that commits the same sinne . but it is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the opinion of men , who doe alleage nothing more commōly for defence of their facts , and consequently for hardning them in their evills , then this that others have their faults , all are sinners : good men have bin overtaken with the same sins , eminent men in profession of religion have done as themselves , and therefore they hope they have done no great hurt , there 's no such cause of others reproving them , or that their own consciences should be much troubled . . there is another way of scandalizing which comes by evil practises , in that it makes men to stumble and fall one upon another , by jarres , variance fightings . what was it which set the benjamites , and the other tribes in such a combustion , but the horrible sin committed on the levites concubine . iudg. . . the treacherous murder of the sechemites by simeon & levi made iacob to stink among the inhabitants of the land , aud to combine against him . gen. . . so true is that of s. iames that warres and fightings come from mens lusts that warre in their members , and set men one against another iames . . . besides sinfull examples create griefe to the good , and thereby scandalize them . to this purpose speaks david psal. . . i beheld the transgressors , and was grieved , because they kept not thy word . and s. paul feared that when he came to the corinthians god would humble him , and that he should bewaile the uncleannesse wherein they had sinned . . cor. . . righteous lot , dwelling among the sodomites , in seeing and hearing vexed his righteous soule from day to day with their unlawfull deeds . . pet. . . as by stumbling sometimes there 's fraction of a member , alwaies anguish , so by scandals sometimes there 's perverting of men from the right way , alwaies dolor and paine even in the best and soundest . . adde here unto that sinfull examples doe most grievously scandalize , in that they cause men ill affected to blaspheme god , to reproach his waies , religion , service . through the sins of the iewes the name of god was blasphemed among the gentiles . rom. . . david by his foule crime in the matter of bathsheba , had given occasion to the enimies of the lord to blaspheme . . sam. . . it is a frequent thing for evill men to set their tongues against heaven , against god , his word , true religion , as if they were none of them good , when any that seemed to follow thē fall into grosse transgressions . wherein however they foolishly impute that to god , which he condemnes and punisheth , and charge religion & godlinesse with that which is the fruit of mens corrupt lusts , contrary to godlinesse : yet it serves satan as an engine to stirre up mens enmity against god & his waies , and an occasion for evill men to vent their venemous hatred of gods word , his people and religion . salvian at large relates how frequent in his daies , such speeches as these were in the mouths of pagans , when they beheld the evill lives of christians ; christians would surely doe holy things if christ had taught them holinesse , look into the lives of christians and you may know what is christs doctrine . in like manner by reason of the lewdnesse of gnosticks , nicolaitanes and such like damnable teachers . christian religion was much reproached by the heathen , and as s. peter foretold . pet. . . the way of truth blaspheamed . and so it is still the vitiousnesse of a protestant in his life opēs the mouth of a papist , to diffame the reformed religion , and the falling of any that seemed to be zealous of gods word , causeth the impure mouthes of licentious persons , to speak evill of the truth which is according to godlinesse . . lastly the sinfull examples of men that have the name of gods people doe scandalize , in making men to loath and to be averse from gods service , and the way of his feare . the sinne of hophni and phinehas caused men to abhorre the offerings of the lord. . sam. . . . the cruelty and coveteousnesse of the spaniards in the west indies , caused the miserable americanes to abhorre christian religion . as a holy life in the professors is a great attractive , & inducement to draw mens hearts to the love of it ; so an ungodly and unrighteous conversation is a certaine impediment and disswasive from it . partly because as seneca saith plus oculis quam auribus credunt , men are guided by their eyes more then their eares , partly because good religion and vertue of men that doe evill things is taken to be , either non-ens or nullius pretii , either nothing or of no worth , even as a pearle or gold covered with dirt is passed by as if it were not , or of no value . for the third quaere . the reason why such woe as hath been said belongs to this scandalizing by sinfull example is . because in every scandall by sinfull example there is a double iniquity , one in that it is against the precept of cleaveing onely to that which is good . rom. . . an other in that it is against the precept of good example , in which wee are enjoyned that our light should so shine before men , that they may see our good workes and glorify our father which is in heaven mat. . vers . . . because it produceth two great evills , one in that thereby the name of god is dishonoured , & so is against the love that is due to god , the other in that it becomes the ruine of his brother , and so is against the love that is due to him . yet for as much as all sinfull example is not alike grievous , but some sinfull examples crosse the precept of love to god more , some lesse , some dishonour god more , some lesse , nor alike scandall , some being more against the love we owe to men , some lesse , some harming them more , some lesse ; therefore the same degree of misery is not awarded to all scandalizers by sinfull example . there are some that by a continued evill practise doe scandalize others , who are accustomed to doe evill , as if it were their occupation , others that scandalize by a foule sinne , but into which they were brought by infirmity , as noah when he was overtaken with drūkennesse . whose woe is doubtlesse lesse then the formers . some there be that scandalize by totall and finall apostasy ; others by a grievous fall , but so as they recover by repentance , as s. peter , and their woe is lesse . some break out into sinfull example after warning given them to take heed of it : others because they wanted a monitour to warne them , and their woe is lesse . some there be , whose scandalls by reason of their eminency of place , gifts , or profession are more notorious , and more heinous ▪ others whose evill exāple reacheth not farre , and their woe is lesse . some that overthrow many by their evill example , some but few , & their woe is lesse . some that overthrow by their evill example their own children , their own naturall brethren , their own flocks of whom they ought to be most tender ; others overthrow strangers only , and their woe is lesse . thus by variety of circumstāces the scandalls of some may bee worse then others , and their woe greater ; however there be a woe allotted to every one that scādalizeth by sinfull example . for application of this truth . . hence men are to bee advertised , what reason there is , they should bewaile , & mourn for such scandalls as they have caused by sinfull example . the greatnesse of the sinne , and the greatnesse of the danger , should both cause this humiliation . if s. paul saw cause to mourne , & to be humbled for the uncleannesse , fornication , and lasciviousnesse of the corinthians ; how much more cause had the corinthians to mourne for themselves ! every one that tenders gods honour , & his own peace , is to shew his hatred of sinne by mourning for the abominations he sees acted by others : such are marked and observed by god , ezek. . . greater cause there is that the actors themselves should mourn who have harmed others , and destroyed themselves suo gladio , by their own sword . t is true there are no small number of men , that make a sport of sinne , that rejoyce to doe evill , and that they cause some to fall . it were fitter for them to learne s. iames his lesson ch. . . to weep and howle for their miseries that shall come upon them : for as all sinnes are mischievous , so doubtlesse scandalls by evill example , will be very mischievous to the layers of them . you then that by your evill example , have made others dissolute , debaucht , quarrelsome , brawlers , fighters , murderers , lascivious , prodigall gamesters , drunkards , lyers , common prophaners of gods holy name and time , deriders of gods word , holy services , & servants , idle , undutifull to superiors , froward , factious , cōtentious , deceitfull , injurious , superstitious &c. oh goe & bewaile these sins as a double evill dishonouring god , & destroying men , overthrowing them , and bringing woe on your selves , and therefore requiring double & treble mourning for such mischiefes . it concernes likewise all persons for the same reasons , to take heed of giving evill example , to the scandall of others , specially of those that should be neare and deare to them . it much imports every christian for the comfort of his owne soule , the glory of god , the good of others , to have his conversation honest among men , that they which speak against him as an evill doer , may by his good works which they shall behold , glorify god in the day of their visitation . . pet. . . it is exacted even of women the weaker sexe , that their conversation should be such in their subjectiō to their husbands , that their lives should have the effect of a sermon to win others to godlines . pet. . . . the reaping of such fruite by well doeing should be a great motive to make christians abundant in good works , much more should the certainty of eternall life , assured to those that patiently continue in well doing . rom. . . provoke them to love , and to good works . however humane commiseration should move us to take heed of destroying our brethren by our evill life . should it not bee a griefe to thee to destroy him whō thou art bound to help ? can a man take delight to damne his child , his friend to enjoy his lust ? should it not be a joy to a man to lead others towards heaven , to keep them from hell ? oh what a blessed condition would it be to every man , that of him it may be said as the apostle of the corinthians , . cor. . . that his zeale had provoked very many , his life had been a light to guide others into the way of peace ! and as it concernes all men to take heed of scandalizing others by evill example , so likewise to take heed of being scandalized by such example . it is their sin that scandalize ; it may be also their ruine that are provoked by them . they shall receive more punishment that lead into evill : they also shall have misery that follow , marke our saviours words mat. . . if the blind lead the blind , both fall into the ditch . when we see evill examples , it were wisedome to conceive , that these are but for triall , as it is said of false prophets , deut. . . the lord proveth us to know whether we love the lord our god with all our heart , and with all our soule . though singularity be counted a reproach , yet undoubtedly it is a greater honour , and a surer happinesse rather to be singular with noah , then to bee corrupt with a world of ungodly persons , to swimme against the streame towards the shore , then to be carried downe the current into perdition , to contend with the wicked for heaven , then to goe downe quietly to hell . for this purpose learn we , . not to glory in any mans holinesse or learning , as if they were absolute , for if such fall thou wilt stumble too . it is an heavenly counsell of the apostle . . cor. . . that no man glory in men . remember so to follow other mens example as they follow christ to stick to their judgement , as they stick to his word . blinde obedience to men is a certaine cause of stumbling . conceive we the best may fall , and then the falling of some will not move us to reproach all , their lapse will not be our ruine . endeavour to be rooted in knowledge , to be of a sound judgement , that thou maist not need to leane on others judgement , or to make their example thy rule : weaknesse makes men easily to stumble , strong walls stand though the butteresse fall : a strong man can goe though his staffe breake , a weake one falls presently , so a man weake in knowledge that leanes on anothers judgement or example if he erre , erres with him , if he falls , falls with him . . avoyde the company of evill men as much as thou maist . make no friendship with an angry man , and with a furious man thou shalt not goe , lest thou learne his wayes , and get a snare to thy soule . prov. . . . evill company wil either infect or weary a man , one way or another scandalize him . favour , not any particular sin , such a one as favours a sin is like tinder , the least sparke sets it on fire : he that loves sin will make any example , any shadow of reason a scandall to himselfe . an upright heart when hee sees others fall , becomes more jealous of himselfe . a corrupt heart is secretly glad at other mens sins , as if they did patronize his owne . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by abuse of liberty in things lawfull . the next way of scandalizing is by abuse of our liberty in things lawfull concerning which we affirme , that a woe belongs to them that scandalize others by abuse of their liberty in things lawfull against charity . it is frequently forbidden by the apostle , and therefore undoubtedly a woe appertaines to the doing of it . rom. . . the apostles precept is , let us not judge one another any more : but judge this rather that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brothers way : which precept though it bee delivered in termes appliable to scandall in generall , yet the series of the apostles discourse shewes it was specially intended to admonish them , that they lay not a stumbling block in their brothers way in their use of meats and dayes , things indifferent , which is more plainly expressed . . cor. . . take heed least by any means this liberty [ about meates ] of yours , become a stumbling block to them that are weake . and gal. . . brethren yee have beene called unto liberty , onely use not your liberty for an occasion to the flesh . but by love serve one another . and there are many reasons of this precept , expressed in those scriptures . as , . it is a corruption of our good , when it becomes anothers harme . our good will be as no good to us , when it is thus perverted . plus aloes quam mellis habet . as wine mixed with gall and wormewood ; so is the use of a christians liberty in things lawfull tending to the ruine of his brother . wherefore the apostle warnes us that our good be not thereby evill spoken of . rom. . . all things indeed are pure , but it is evill to him that eateth with offence . v. . . it is a depraving of our knowledge of our liberty . our knowledge of our liberty should serve us to direct our selves in our way : but not be made an ignis fatuus to leade others out of the way . but rather as a mercury , or hand to direct them in it , as a candle to enlighten us how to remove stones and stumbling blocks out of the way of gods people , that the weake be not cast downe by them . we know saith the apostle , . cor. . . that we all have knowledge , yet we are to take heed that through our knowledge our weake brother perish not for whom christ died . v. . . it is an unreasonable , and unequall thing , and so against justice , that the priviledge of one should be the undoing of another , that the benefit of one should become the detriment of another , that one christians liberty should be enjoyed so as to harme others . our liberty is not res tanti , a thing of that value , that it should at all times bee used even to the ruine of our brother . the pleasing of our own wills should not bee so accounted of , as to have them , what ever mischief ensue to our brother . 't is true if the use of our liberty did make us accepted with god , then it were equall wee should please him , though we displease all men . but the kingdome of god is not meat and drink : but righteousnesse and peace and joy in the holy ghost . rom. . . meat commendeth us not to god : for neither if we eat are we the better , neither if we eat not are we the worse . . cor. . . and the like may bee said of other indifferent things , wherefore the good of enjoying our liberty is not such as may countervaile the evill of scandalizing our brother . iustice in the embleme waighes with even skales : so should we in the use of our liberty , not account our liberty so waighty , as that our brothers good be accounted light . . to abuse our liberty to the scandalizing of another , is against the charity wee owe to him . if thy brother bee grieved with thy meat : now walkest thou not charitably , saith the apostle rom. . . the property of true charity is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . cor. . . to be kind and beneficiall to others , not to bee hurtfull , and unkind : it seekes not her owne . v. . when it may wrong another . he then that shall be so settled on this resolution , as that hee will not abate an inch of his conveniency for the preventing of a mischiefe , or at least a vexation to his brother shewes that he loves himselfe much , his brother litle or nothing at all . . and as this offensive use of our liberty discovers want of charity , so it doth also want of mercy . for it is a kind of spirituall slaying or wounding of our brother . the apostle . cor. . . . saith that by such offences the scandalizers doe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , beate and wound the weak conscience of their brother , as a man that doth kill another with a destructive weapon , and that consequently the offended person 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , perisheth , that is quantum per ipsum stat , as much as pertaines to him . and to the like purpose disswading from using our liberty in meates with offence hee forbids it in this phrase , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . rom. . . destroy not him with thy meat , and againe , v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . for meat destroy not , or dissolve not the work of god , that is the soule of thy brother . as if scandalizing were a destroying or murther , such as a soule is capable of . for what is the murther of the soule but grieving it , perverting it , causing it to sin , to feele gods anger ? this is that which the scripture calleth death , as being indeed the onely death of an immortall spirit , so that to cause this by using of our liberty is against the mercy wee are to shew to our brothers soule , which is also aggravated in that it is a destroying of gods worke , that is , the soule , which is divinae particula aurae , that particle as it were of gods breath . gen. . . that image of the invisible god , farre surpassing in worth the whole masse of corporeall beings , and therefore the destruction of it much exceeding the destruction of the body . . adde hereunto , that this scandalizing must needes hinder the peace , the sweet peace that should bee betweene christians that are members of the same body . for whereas they should follow after the things that make for peace . rom. . . this course is opposite thereto . peace is to be followed by yielding somewhat to other mens desires , by being indulgent to their weakenesse , by relaxation of that rigour we may stand upon . but in this way of scandalizing another by the use of our liberty there 's no yielding to the desires of others , no indulgence to their weaknesse , no remission of rigour , yea besides it causeth a jealousy in the offended person of his enmity towards him , who would doe that which hee is so much offended with . which apprehension will assuredly cause him to look obliquo oculo , awry on him , that offends , and instead of imbracing him , flye off farther from him . . and indeed whether there bee enmity or evill will or no in the scandalizer , surely there is some pride , and contempt of his brother in this sin . for the apostle when hee speakes of the fountaine of this evill , derives it from the swelling of knowledge , that his knowledge puffeth him up . . cor. . . and againe when he forbids the cause of scandalizing in the use of things indifferent hee chargeth thus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . let him not despise or set at nought his brother . intimating that if he were not puffed up , with his knowledge , nor set at nought his brother , but esteemed him as hee should , hee would prize him above his owne conveniences , and remit his use of them for his sake . now pride whereby a man despiseth another as it is a great evill in it selfe , so is it the greater in that by it commeth contention . prov. . . . furthermore the obligation of christians bindes them to the utmost of their power to further the kingdome of god in men ; his glory , and their salvation . the mercy we have our selves received should move us to endeavour to make others partakers of the same , we being called should call others , as philip having found the messiah invites nathaniel to come to him iohn . . peter being converted was bound to strengthen his brethren . luke . . . wherefore for such a one not onely not to strengthen , but even for unnecessary things , in which the kingdome of god consists not , to weaken them is very contrary to to the heavenly calling wherewith we are called , to the unspeakable grace we have received : doubtlesse the apostles rule is most equall for such , that whether they eat or drink , or whatsoever they doe , they doe all to the glory of god , giving none offence neither to the iewes , nor the gentiles , nor to the church of god ; but as he himselfe did , who pleased all men in all things , not seeking his owne profit , but the profit of many that they may be saved . . cor. . . . . . vnto which the example of our lord christ should yet more forcibly urge us , as the same apostle presseth it . rom. . . . . we that are strong ought to beare with the infirmities of the weak , and not to please our selves . let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification . for even christ pleased not himselfe , but as it is written , the reproaches of them , that reproached thee , fell on me . how much doe they degenerate from christs example , whom they ought to follow , who are unwilling to suspend the use of their liberty for their pleasure , whereas the lord christ laid aside his glory , emptied himselfe , and became of no reputation for their sake . . finally what is scandalizing our brethren for our liberties sake , but a forgetting what love christ vouchsafed them and us in that hee dyed for them and us ? christ dyed for them that hee might save them , wee let them perish for our pleasure . such practise is doubtlesse not onely a sin against the brethren , but against christ much more . . cor. . . all these reasons put together declare how great a sin this kind of scandal is , and therefore , how justly a woe belongs to it . and so much the greater a woe is awarded to such scandalizers as it is committed with , and so much the greater pride , wilfulnes , or wantones : when it is done data opera , of set purpose , or with evident foresight of the grievance & harme ensuing thereby to their brother . for these things make it the more voluntary , and therefore the more sinfull . but then it is a very hard and knotty point in many cases to know when a christian doeth thus abuse his liberty in things indifferent , when not : it being a hard thing to understand , when men are weak , when wilfull : a hard thing to determin what to doe when the harme of another by our use of our liberty is only suspected or feared it may be , but on the other side probably may not be : what is to be done when it is likely that there may be scandall either way in using or not using our liberty ; what regard is to be had to our brethren in case the magistrate interposeth his authority . from these and sundry more such difficulties arise many doubts to the disquiet of tender consciences , and sinfull presumptions in some , superstitious feares in others , which beget no small evill , which points neverthelesse i finde handled ex professo by few : onely incidentally to other arguments here and there writers cleare some of the doubts belonging to this argument : wherefore i have conceived it may be of good use to endeavour the clearing of such difficulties incident to this argument as i have either by reading , meditation or conference met with , not discouraged by the conscience of mine owne insufficience , but trusting in gods assistance , & with all assureing my selfe that among readers there will bee some , that conceive esse aliquid prodire tenus . and that the order i use may appeare , . i shall briefly say somewhat of things lawful and indifferent , and our liberty in their use . . of the waies whereby a christians conscience may be restrained from using this liberty . . because the fourteenth chapter of the epistle of s. paul to the romans , and the eighth , ninth , and tenth , of the first epistle to the corinthians , are the seat of this argument , i shall deliver as rightly as i can a summe or the apostles resolutions concerning this point in those chapters . . out of these things premised , and such other passages of holy scripture and reasons as i finde pertinent thereto , i shall endeavour to resolve sundry questions or cases of this matter needfull to bee cleared : yet not magisterially obtruding these resolutions on others , but submitting them to examination , as remembring that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets . . cor. . . in answering the first of these points , wee are to take notice that there are some things lawful , which are in themselves duties , and commanded by god to be done , which yet are to bee omitted at sometimes , for the avoyding of scandall . as for instance , reproving of our neighbour is a duty enjoyned by god , yet to bee omitted at some times , when the person to be reproved would bee likely rather hardened , then amended by reproofe . in like manner may it bee said also of excommunication , when there is danger of schisme ; of punishing malefactors , when the issue would bee the overthrow of the common wealth . pro vitando scandalo cessat rigor dissiplinae , is an old rule and a good one , to avoyde scandall the rigour of discipline ceaseth . this truth is grounded . on that rule , which is among divines received , that praecepta negativa obligant semper , & ad semper , they alwaies binde and to alwaies , that is , what is forbidden by god may at no time bee done : no man may sinne to avoyde scandall ; their damnation is just , saith the apostle , rom. . . that say , let us doe evill that good may come . but on the other side affirmative precepts obligant semper , sed non ad semper , they alwayes bind , but not to alwaies , that is though they stand in force alwaies , yet not so as to tye us to doe the things required at all times . as for instance though gods command alwaies bindes a christian to pray , to give almes &c. yet not to doe these alwaies : but when the glory of god , and the good of our brethren require it . the knowledge of which time is partly to bee taken from rules and examples in holy scripture , partly from godly prudence and reason , which every man should have as a light to guide him in discerning the circumstances , which make such actions necessary . . on this consideration , that those actions of reproofe , punishing vice , and the like to them are commanded principally to this end , that they may doe good to men for the curing of their evills , the furthering of vertue in them . wherefore when prudence shewes that such actions would bee either fruitles in respect of their end , or contrariwise harmfull , they are to bee forborne : in this case there is libertas non faciendi , a liberty not to doe them , or rather hee ought not to doe them . concerning this sort of things lawfull , wherein our liberty is to bee restrained to avoyde scandall , there needs not much more to be said , but that when according to true prudence they appeare to bee necessary for gods glory , our owne salvation , or our brethrens good , then they are to bee done without regard of scandall consequent ; if to the contrary to bee omitted . few scruples there are in men about these things , and such as bee , may find some satisfaction from the resolutions of the cases concerning things indifferent . the second sort of things in w ch we may abuse our liberty to the scandall of our brethren are things indifferēt . now by things indifferent i understand not according to the vulgar acception of actions indifferent , such actions as are neither much praise worthy , nor much to be reproved ; because there is no speciall matter of goodnesse or hurt in them ; as for a man to eat when he is hungry , to drinke when he is thirsty , to keepe due houres for meales , or on the contrary to omit these : which though they may bee in common acception called indifferent , yet according to exact speaking they are not indifferent , but either right or sinfull as they are clothed with circumstances . but by things indifferent i mean such actions as in their nature , in se , of themselvs , are neither right nor sinfull , neither commanded nor forbidden , as to eat or not to eat such meats , to eat sweet meats or sowre , to goe or not to goe on foot , to goe on foot or to ride , to weare such cloathes or not to wear them , to wear linnen or woollen , to expresse our mind by word of mouth or writing , to write on paper or parchment , to speake in latin or english. in which , and a thousand such like , a christian hath both the liberty which is called libertas contradictionis , liberty in contradictories , to doe or not to doe , as to eat egges , or not to eat them , to weare a cloake , or not to weare one ; and also the liberty which is called libert as contrarietatis , liberty in contraries , as in eating sweet or bitter food , ; in wearing white or black in which there is a greater liberty than there is about duties . for though wee are not bound to doe all duties at all times , yet wee may not at any time doe the contrary : as , though wee are not at all times bound to reprove , yet at no time to flatter . but in things indifferent there is libertas ad utrumlibet , liberty in either of which we like , to doe this or not to doe it , to doe this , or the contrary to it . that there are actions of men that are in se , of themselves abstracted from particularizing circumstances in their nature indifferent as hath bin said , i take it as a certaine truth , grounded on the speech of the apostle . . cor. . . neither if wee eat are wee the better , neither if we eat not are we the worse ; like unto which are those rom. . . . . . and on plaine reason . for the contrary assertion must needes suppose that gods lawes doe command or forbid every action in speciall , which is not so , as may appeare by induction , in the particulars before mentioned , and thousands of the like ; i have read of some that have gone about to maintaine , that there is nothing indifferent : but this opinion either hath beene retracted by the author , or conceived so absurd that it hath had either none or very few followers . in the manner that i have declared i take it as certain , that there are indifferent things . it is granted that all humane actions in individuo , in the particular or singular , that flowe from deliberate reason are either morally good , or evill , as agreeing to , or disgreeing from gods law . i said signantèr to bee marked , that flow from deliberate reason , to exclude such particular actions of men as being naturall actions from naturall instinct , or force of imagination , are not of morall consideration ; such as are the handling of the beard , rubbing the nose , shaking the legge when a man thinks not of them , talking or walking in sleepe . these as not comming from reason , nor having any end are accounted not as rationall actions , but as animal only , though they be done by men , and therfore neither good nor bad . but for all singular actions which are not of morall consideration , that come under a law , being clothed with circumstances specificating and singularizing them , as they come from reason , as aquin. a. ae . q. . art . . or as paraeus in rom. . dub . . ratione principij , hoc est ratione electionis & intentionis quâ fiunt , in regard of their principle , that is the election and intention by which they are done , are either good or bad , agreeing or disagreeing from gods law . thus every act of eating , or wearing apparrell , or going a journey with this or that intent , in this or that manner , is either good or bad , right or sinfull . but then it is as certaine that many actions of men in the generall , or in specie , in the kind of them considered without restraint of particularizing circumstances afore they are in actu exercito , that is , actually done are indifferent , as i have declared . and it is further to bee observed , that in these indifferent or middle things , as they are called , the christian church hath greater liberty then the iewish synagogue . for many things were not indifferent to them , which are indifferent to us : it was not indifferent to them to eat swines flesh or not , to weare a garment of linsey-woolsey or not , with many more . but it is to us indifferent to eate swines flesh or not , to wear a garment of linsey-woolsey or not . the ordinances whereby the iews were restrained in their liberty , were a yoake which they were not able to beare . acts. . . but it is removed from our necks by christs death , who hath abolished the law of commandements contained in ordinances ephes. . . and in this liberty wee are commanded to stand fast that wee bee not intangled again with the yoak of bondage . gal. . . a liberty then we have in things indifferent , & to renege and deny , it is to put on our neckes that yoake that christ hath freed us from . neverthelesse though god hath not made these indifferent things intrinsecally , or in their own nature good or evill , yet extrinsecally they may be made good or evill : and that sundry wayes . . by the command or prohibiting of the magistrate . for though the magistrates authority cannot make , ( for examples sake ) the eating of flesh , or the wearing of a weapon unlawfull to me , as a thing prohibited by god , and thereby intrinsecally evill : yet if hee forbid them , who is the lawfull governour , and hath power to make lawes , or ordinances , it is sin against god to doe these things : because he contemnes the law of the magistrate , against the common good , which is the ground of it , and the authority , concerning which god hath commanded . rom. . . let every soule be subject to the higher powers : for there is no power but of god : the powers that be , are ordained of god. whosoever therfore resisteth the power resisteth the ordināce of god : & they that resist shall receive to themselves damnatiō . the same is to be conceived of the commands of ecclesiasticall governors according to their authority , of naturall parents , of tutors , teachers & masters according to the flesh , to the which god hath commanded us to be subject . ephes. . and elsewhere . whence it was that the rechabites would drinke no wine because of ionadab the sonne of rechab his command not to drinke wine . ierem. . . for though by such mandates they cannot take away our originall liberty , yet they can restraine the use : the liberty we have in things indifferent being the proper matter for the magistrate or governour to shew his authority of making lawes in . . by a vow whereby a man bindes himselfe to doe or not to doe , to use or not to use his liberty in such or such an indifferent thing . for by vowes and promissory oathes , a man may make that necessary or sinfull to himselfe , which neither is intrinsecally good nor evil , necessary nor sinful nor would be to him such , but for the vow he made : because god hath enjoyned deuter. . . when thou shalt vow a vow unto the lord thy god : thou shalt not slack to pay it , for the lord thy god wil surely require it of thee , & it would be sinne in thee . but if thou shalt forbeare to vow , it shall be no sinne in thee . and psal. . . it is made a requisite condition of him that shall dwell in gods tabernacle , that though hee sweare to his owne hurt , he change not . . likewise a man may by his owne opiniō make that extrinsecally evill which is not so intrinsecally . for though a mans opinion cannot make that to bee duty which is not so : yet it may make that to be sin which otherwise would not bee so , according to the apostles resolution . rom. . . to him that esteemeth any thing to be uncleane , to him it is uncleane . ver . . and hee that doubteth is damned if he eat : because he eateth not of faith : for whatsoever is not of faith is sinne . . the good or evill of our neighbour binds us to use or not to use our liberty , as it may further their good , or be a scandall to them . for though wee are called to liberty , yet wee may not use our liberty as an occasion to the flesh , but by love serve one another . gal. . . now it is to be observed that which is intrinsecally good by vertue of gods command , is intrinsecally good to all , to whom that command is given ( who are the whole world ) and that which is intrinsecally evil , is evil to all to whom gods commandement forbids it , ( who are the whole world ) and therefore it is sin to any to doe that which hee forbids , as to lye , blaspheam &c. but that which is extrinsecally good , is not good to all , but only to those to whom the obligation reacheth , and for the time it lasteth ; nor that which is extrinsecally evill as being contrary to the governours commandement or to the restrained parties vow , or the verdict of his owne conscience , or being scandalous and hurtfull to his neighbour , is extrinsecally evill to all , but only those who are under that government , that vow , that opinion , to whom it happens that their use of their liberty may become the harme of their neighbour . that which is evil for a subject of the king of england to doe , may not bee evill to the subject of the king of spaine , who hath made no such law as the king of england : and that vow that binds him that made it , bindes not another which hath made no such vow ; and that opinion which one man hath , and that harme of our brother which restraines one man from the use of his liberty , restraines not another , whose action would cause no such harme : in whose mind is no such opinion . having premised these things i am next to enquire into the apostles resolutions delivered , rom. . . cor. . . . chapters concerning the forbearing of the use of our liberty in case of scandall , which was then in agitation , and determined by the apostle in those chapters . which that wee may the better understand , we are to take notice , that , as appeares by s. lukes history of the acts of the apostles , and likewise by other histories of iosephus , suetonius , tacitus , and others , the nation of the iewes was , in those dayes wherein s. paul wrote his epistle to the romans , dispersed over many countries of the world , in asia , aegypt , greece , italy : and particularly that many of that nation dwelt in rome . in which citty at that time , the great city , which had dominion over a great part of the earth , the iewes retained the religion and rites of their nation prescribed by moses , and were for their sabbaths , circumcision , abstaining from swines flesh , and such like rites derided by the satyrists of those times famous at rome , horace , iuvenall , persius and the rest . now of these iewes at rome it pleased god to convert some to the christian faith , as well as some of the gentiles . wee are likewise to remember that while the ceremoniall law of moses was in force , the iewes conceived themselves as strictly bounde to the observances of meates and dayes , and other ordinances of moses , as of the decalogue , unlesse in such cases as wherein the observing of them was against a morall duty . for then that of the prophet took place , i will have mercy and not sacrifice , as our saviour determines mat. . . whereupon the godly iewes made conscience of obedience to the ceremoniall lawes , as to other morall precepts . when in a vision all manner of foure footed beasts of the earth , & wild beasts , and creeping things and foules of the aire were presented to peter to kill and eate , he replyed , not so lord , for i have never eatē any thing that is common or unclean acts. . . hence they thought thēselves bound rather to suffer any torment , than to eat so much as a bit of swines flesh , as appears in the example of eleazar , and the mother and her seaven sons , in the historie of the maccabees . . maccab. ch . . & . wherefore when the gospell began to bee preached , and the ceremonies of moses his law to bee disclaimed , and neglected , much contention arose betweene the christians that were of the circumcision , and those of the gentiles , concerning the necessity of observing moses law : in so much that it was thought necessary to call a counsell of the apostles and elders at hierusalem to decide this difference . acts. . so that although by christs death the necessity of observing them was taken away : and the gospell being promulgated , their observation became dangerous , as we read gal. . yet such esteem had the ceremonies of the law gotten , partly by their originall institution , and partly tractu temporis , by a long tract of time in which they had stood in force , that many christians not sufficiently instructed in their liberty feared to neglect or break them after their initiation into christianity : as on the other side those that were well instructed in their liberty did neglect them securely , they made no scruple of eating meates , of neglecting new moones , and the like festivalls . and thus was it among the romans when s. paul wrot this epistle to them . there were some that would not eat meats prohibited by moses law , but rather eat hearbes ; nor would they omit the observation of dayes , as not knowing their liberty therein , so that if it happened they did eat such meats , or neglect such dayes it was with doubting and regrete of conscience . these the apostle calleth weake brethren , weake in the faith . others there were among the romans , who made no question of eating any sort of meats , nor regarded dayes as knowing they had lawfull liberty therein . and these are called strong in the faith by the apostle : now if this diversity had been onely in practise , or opinion , it had been somewhat tollerable . but the difference in opinion , and deformity in practise bred among them ( as usually it doth ) discord and division . for whereas christian charity and holy wisdome should have prevented all quarrell between them , all harming each other , contrariwise it so fell out that the strong despised the weak as more scrupulous then needed , and the weak with an aggrieved mind judged the strong as licentious , and unholy ; and whereas sometimes the weake by the example of the strong might bee induced to doe that w ch , though lawfull , they doubted whether it were so or not , their consciences were thereby wounded . to ease the christians of this grievance the apostle as an equall arbitrator thus decides the controversy . in this case , the strong should take to them the weake in faith , shewing kindnesse & love to them , but not imprudently intangle them with disputes which bred more doubts in them , while they sought to cure their errour about meats and dayes : that they should not despise or sleight them for their weaknesse , but shew them all respect as believers : that they should enjoy their knowledge to themselves , but not use their liberty to the grievance of their brethrē : that they should not so looke to their own much content in the use of their priviledge as to damnifie their brethren , and to wound their conscience . on the other side the apostle admonisheth the weake , that they neither censure nor judge their brethren , in the use of their liberty , nor yet venture upon the use of their lawfull liberty , with doubting consciences , but bee sure that they bee well resoved in their judgements afore they enter on the practise . concerning the other scripture in which the apostle sets downe his resolutions in point of scandals the case was thus , corinth was an eminent beautifull citty called by tully lumen graeciae , the eye of greece , but a pagan citty . in which the people were wont to worship idols of iupiter , mars , minerva &c. to these they built temples , and offered sacrifices of oxen and other beasts , as wee read they would have done at lystra . acts. . . of these oxen and other sacrifices some part of the flesh the priests of the idols had for their share : some part was eaten by the people that offered , at the feasts called lectisterma in the idols temple , some part was perhaps sold in the shambles , and bought by any that would , and eaten in private houses . concerning idolothytes or things sacrificed to idols : it was the sin of the israelites in shittim , numb . . . psal. . . that they did eat the sacrifices of the dead . and revel . . . in the epistle to the church of pergamus the angell of that church is accused that there were some that held the doctrine of balaam to eat things sacrificed to idols , and in the apostles decree it was given in charge to christians . acts. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . to abstaine from things sacrificed to idols , called v : . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the pollutions of idols . now it pleased god to gather to himselfe in corinth much people by the ministery of s. paul , acts. . . although in that , as in other citties where christians were a part remained infidels . the converted christians were for the most part of the meaner sort of people , as the apostle tells them , . cor. . . yee see your calling brethren , how that not many wise men after the flesh , not many mighty , not many noble are called . in this calling it happened that sometime the wife was converted to the christian faith , the husband remaining in unbeliefe ; sometime the husband converted , the wife unconverted , sometime the servant converted , and not the master , the child and not the father , this man a christian , his next neighbour a pagan , as appears by the apostles suppositions . . cor. . . &c. insomuch that christians were mingled with pagans , as in some countries , turks and christians , iewes & christians , or as in england protestants & papists , excepting that the pagans were the greater number , & more potent party . this vicinity , and these relations caused a necessity of civill converse betweene them : for otherwise the christians must needes goe out of the world . . cor. . . these things likewise occasioned the pagans sometimes to invite the christians to goe with them to their feasts at the idols temple : sometimes to their owne tables . the meat that was dressed at their feasts and other meales sometimes happened to be such meat as had beene offered before in sacrifice to the idoll , either bought in the shambles , or sent by a neighbour as a gift . the christians were of divers sorts , some that had knowledge . cor. . . some that had not the same measure of knowledge , but were weak , had weak consciences v. . . the case standing thus , the doubt was how the christians in the citty of corinth were to carry themselves upon these occasions . the resolution of the apostle is this . that they might by no meanes eat idolothytes or things sacrificed to idols , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the idols temple . for that is to partake of the table of devils . . cor. . . an idoll service , and likewise a scandall to a weake brother to embolden him to eat those things which are offered to idols . . cor. . . and so this scandalizing is by evill example , in a thing manifestly evill . but if christians were invited to a private house by an unbeleever , they might goe , and eat the meat that had been offered to idols , either wittingly , or unwittingly , or if the meat offered to the idoll were to bee sold in the shambles they might buy it , dresse it , eat it asking no question for conscience sake . for the earth being the lords , and the fulnesse thereof , the flesh by the offering to the idoll could not bee so alienated from him , but that gods people might eat it as gods creature given them for foode . neverthelesse if any were present , that being weake in knowledge should think it unlawfull to eat such meat , and by saying , this is offered in sacrifice to idols , should intimate to thee his opinion of unlawfullnesse to eat it , and his griefe to see thee partake of it , in this case the christian were to forbeare eating to avoyde offence , which might bee taken by his brother , being grieved , or else by his example in eating that meat which hee knew to be offered to an idol , emboldened to thinke that in some sort he might communicate with an idolater in idol-service , that there is no unreconcileable difference betweene paganisme and christianity . which might easily happen to a weak christian not fully instructed in the truth of his christian liberty , how farre it extendeth , and where it endeth . in this briefe manner i have as rightly and clearly as i could , gathered the matters of those chapters : from whence wee may draw sundry things usefull for the resolving of questions incident to this point , to which i now hasten ; where first it may be asked , who are bound to avoyde scandalizing of others by their use of their liberty in things lawfull ? answ. whereto the answere is : all christians as christians : for this is a fruit of christian charity which all are bound to have . they that are called to liberty are not to use their liberty for an occasion to the flesh , but by love to serve one another . gal. . . the same god that hath by his letters patents given his people so ample a priviledge , as leave to use all indifferent things , hath thought good neverthelesse to limit it by the law of charity . a second question may be , whether a christian be bound to avoyde scandalizing of evill , or unbelieving persons by the use of this liberty ? answ. whereto i answer : that although the apostle in the places rom. . and cor. . which i called the seat of this argument , speak only of not scandalizing our weake brother by the use of our liberty , that being sufficient for the present occasion : yet in the conclusion of his dispute . . cor. . . hee chargeth christians to give none offence neither to the iewes , nor to the gentiles , nor to the church of god , but as he himselfe did , who pleased all men in all things , not seeking his owne profit , but the profit of many that they might bee saved . which rule of s. paul is conformable to the practise of our lord christ who payd tribute money to the collectors who were neither themselves , nor their masters any of christs disciples , but evill persons , and that for this end least he should offend them . mat. . . and if the scripture require ( as it doth . pet. . . and that of women ) good conversation that those who obey not the word may without the word bee wonne by good conversation , undoubtedly for the same reason it requires we should not scandalize them by abuse of our liberty , least they bee farther off , from being wonn , there is a kind of charity or love due to them , and consequently some care of not offending them . there 's not due the same tendernesse of offending an unbeliever or evill person as of a christian brother ; but as there is due to a christian brother a more affectionate love , so likewise a more tender regard of not scandalizing him . servants are to bee carefull of not hurting their masters cattle , but most carefull of their children : so ought christians to bee carefull of not offending evill men , who are gods creatures , but most carefull not to offend the godly , who are his children . yet that the resolution of this question may be more full , i conceive , that unbelievers or evill persons are differently considerable in this matter of not scandalizing them , according to the diversity of their estrangednesse from the true faith , or obedience . for , . there are some who though they yet professe not the truth , nor shew themselves to be regenerate , have yet some beginnings of affection to the truth we professe , and the obedience we practise : that are lesse vitious , more inclinable to hearken to the truth then some others that begin to perceive some part of the truth . as our saviour said of the scribe that answered him discreetly , telling him , that to love the lord with all the heart , and with all the understanding , and with all the soule , and with all the strength , and to love our neighbour as our selves is more then all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices ( whereby hee shewed that he had not the dreggs of pharisaisme in him , which was to conceive themselves righteous by observing the outward ceremonies , and duties of the law ) that hee was not farre from the kingdome of god : mark. . . now of such we are to bee tender that we scandalize not them by intempestive use of our liberty . if a nicodemus among the pharisees be but a listner to his doctrine , our saviour thinks good not to reject him , but to draw him on further : if a papist yet remaining in the roman church begin to mislike the idolatry of that church , their magnifying their owne merits &c. and yet out of a reverend esteem though erroneous of the church of romes orders mislikes the eating of flesh on a friday , charity should make me rather forbeare in such a ones presence to eat flesh at such a time then to give occasion to such a one to count our religion licentious , and thereby estrange him the further from the truth . for sith a principall end of not offending our brother by the abuse of our liberty , is that wee may seeke his profit , that he may bee saved , if in true judgement , or our opinion , the not scandalizing him would tend to that end , we ought to forbeare out liberty , that wee may not offend him . it being a sure rule , finis dat mediis ordinem , mensuram , & amabilitatem . the end gives order , measure , and desireablenesse to the meanes thereto tending . . some unbelieving , evill , or unregenerate persons are further off from the kingdome of god being plaine , and professed adversaries to the way of truth , and righteousnesse , but yet not out of wilfull malice , but blinde zeale . as the iewes of whom the apostle speaks , that they had a zeale of god , though not according to knowledge . rom. . . now the scandalizing of such men is not so much to bee regarded as of the former : because there is lesse likelyhood that our forbearing our liberty should alter their judgements , or practise , yet for as much as according to the nature of vehement persons out of ignorance though they bee impetuously carried in that they doe , yet if they discover their errour they are as soone turned : therefore it is probable that some yielding to them may win upon their affections , and make way for such insinuation as may give opportunity to discover to them the truth , we ought so far to abstain from our liberty as not to confirm them in hard conceits of the truth , and so farre to please them in the use of our lawfull liberty , as may serve to make way for the recovering of them out of errour . as for example sake : if wee should meet with a zealous papist that never understood the truth of our profession : but is an adversary to it upon misinformation of his priest , his parents , acquaintance , as that our religion is meere novellisme , carnall , licentious &c. we ought so farre to abstaine from our lawfull liberty , or to please him in a thing lawfull which he affects , as in our apprehension we conceive may make way to our reducing him into the right way . and this i find agreable to the apostles resolution . . cor. . . . . . though i bee free from all men , yet have i made my selfe servant unto all , that i might gaine the more . and unto the iewes i became as a iew , that i might gain the iewes ; to them that are under the the law as under the law , that i might gaine them that are under the law . to them that are without law , as without law ( being not without law to god , but under the law to christ ) that i might gaine them that are without law : to the weak became i as weak , that i might gain the weak . i am made all things to all men , that i might by all means save some . lively exemplifications of which professions were his practise of taking a vow on him related act. . of his forbearing his power , . cor. . . . thess. . . . wherein he did not shew hypocriticall policy , like those that proteus-like can transform themselves into any shape for evill purposes : but serpentine wisdome joyned with dove-like innocency , commended by our saviour mat. . . the end being not his own advantage but the salvation of others . . some are adversaries to the truth out of malice , being setled therein , by love of unrighteousnesse , and hatred of righteousnesse . the converting of these being in a sort desperate , the scandalizing of them by the use of our liberty is not to bee regarded . our saviours example mat. . . is a sufficient rule to direct us in this case . when the pharisees were offended because of his doctrine , that that which goeth into the mouth defiles not a man , our saviour bids let them alone ; sith they are wilfull , and incurable , let them fall into the ditch . t is true wee are bound by gods law not willingly to provoke any to anger , much lesse to provoke any greater sinne in him : but rather to avoyde such things as may cause these evills . but when we meet with such enemies as being wholly possessed by satan , are setled in their enmity against us , and the truth we professe : wee then are to be carelesse of offending them by enjoying our conveniency , as knowing that our restraint may be uncomfortable to us and unprofitable to them . a third question may be : whether strong ones may bee scandalized by the use of christian liberty ? aquin. a , ae , q. . art . . propoundes this question , whether passive scandall may befall the perfect , and hee denies it , alleaging a sayng of s. hierome , majores scandala non patiuntur : those that are stronger suffer not scādals . but i conceive ther 's need of a fuller answer . that the strongest may bee tempted by scandall is no question . our saviour was tempted by a scandalous advice of peter to forsake the worke which he had received from his father , and for which he came into the world . that men of great strength for knowledge , and godlines , may bee overcome by scandall , the falls of david , solomon , and others shew . the best strength of a christian is but weakenesse without a continued supply of strength from above . but concerning a scandall from the use of christian liberty it may either arise from an evill will , jealousie , prejudice , whereby the mind prepossessed is offended with that w ch another doth : or else it may arise from ignorance of the lawfulnes of such liberty . scandall proceeding from the former motives may bee in them that are strong in knowledge , or in the faith . evill will or evill prejudice may cause such a one to misinterpret another mans action , and to take offence thereat . but this offence comes à malo ingenio , from an ill mind in him , wanting charity and wisdome , & therefore he is in true estimation the scandalizer of himselfe . as for scandall of the latter sort from ignorance the strong are not liable to it . for if a man bestrong he is sufficiently instructed in the truth of our liberty , and therefore mistakes it not , nor excepts against it . a fourth question may be : who are to be accounted weak brethren whom we may not scandalize by the use of our christian liberty ? i answer : in the apostles reasonings in the chapters before abridged , those are reputed weake brethren who either because of their late conversion had not time to learn the doctrine of christian liberty , or otherwise for want of right information knew it not . it is the speech of d r ames l. . de consci . c. . § . . pusilli habendi sunt illi qui non sunt sufficienter instituti circa libertatem nostram : they are to be accounted little or weak-ones , who are not sufficiently instructed about our liberty . and for this hee cites . cor. . . and indeed in that place the apostle opposeth the strong to them that have not knowledge . whence it followes that those that have been taught the doctrine of christian liberty , and yet are offended are not the weake ones of whom the apostle speaks . for if after instruction they still stumble it hath more of wilfulnes in it thē of weaknesse , if they may be said to be weak , yet not meerly weak , because their ignorance is either from negligence , or aversnesse of minde , and so is ignorance affected , or weaknes ex prava dispositione , out of an ill disposition . d r ames , ubi supra , § . . tels us they may be accounted weake to whom the reason of our liberty hath bin rendred . for they may be not capeable of conceiving . which speech of his hath need of further consideration . for the incapacity he speakes of may bee conceived to be either from weaknesse of naturall parts of understanding : and indeed such incapacity may make men weake notwithstanding instruction : but then it is not to bee imagined , but that they which have naturall parts sufficient to conceive the mysteries of faith , have naturall parts sufficient to conceive the doctrine of the lawfulnesse of christian liberty : if they can understand the one , they may understand the other : if they understand neither , they may bee termed more rightly infidels , then weake in faith ; blind , then dimme-sighted : or else such incapacity as he speaks of may arise out of preconceived opinions , alienation of mind , prejudice against the teacher , è studio partium , from an addictednes to some peculiar party , or frō such other cause . for such motes or beames rather in mens eyes will marre their sight of that which they should perceive , and so make them uncapeable for the time of discerning that which is right . but then it is to bee considered , that this incapacity is vitious and voluntary , at least ratione causae : in respect of the cause of it , and therefore such persons are not to be reputed such weak ones as the apostle speakes of , who were simple hearted , not wilfull , whereas these are rather wilfull then weake , and have more in them of evill will , than of little wit. and this may bee knowne by sundry signes of their perversenesse . as namely by unwillingnes to be taught in the truth of christian liberty contrary to their opinions : despising all that is said or written to cleare that truth , which is against their minds : declining the hearing or reading of that which is said for it , or hearing and reading unequally , not weighing or considering the one , but with rashnesse continuing in the former , perverting , misconstruing , misreporting , that which is written or spoken , keeping in the same time after such declaration as might convince , wrangling , and censuring , & quarrelling with those that vary from them , zeale for their own opinion , resolution even to suffering for their way . by which and such like signes mens wilfull weaknesse may bee discerned from simple ignorance . a fift question may be , what effect upon the use of our liberty , either consequent or likely to be consequent , is necessary to make the use of our liberty a scandalizing of our brother ? in answer whereto it is needfull that that be remēbred which i declared before ch. . § . in the explication of the definition of scandall , to wit , that ruine or falling which is made the adequate effect of scandall , must be understood both in a primary , and a secondary sense , and that the action causing either sorte of ruine may be called scandall ; so that if by the use of our liberty , we either draw our brother to speciall sinne , as by eating meats offered to idolls , to be partakers of idoll-service , or hinder them in their progresse of grace , or cause them to fall away , or cause discords , schismes , alienation of affections , it is scandall . for any of these effects are sufficient to make our brother stumble , offend or be weake , which are forbidden by the apostle as the effects of scandalizing rom. . . whereto we are to adde , that it is plaine by the . verse , that the grieving of our brother by our eating is a scandalizing , though as i said before , in a secondary acception . in that speech of abigail to david , . sam. . . that which our translators read [ griefe of heart ] is if the heb. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , scandal or stūbling of heart . but if there be any other effect unpleasing , as simple dislike by dissent in opiniō without griefe i finde not that such effect is sufficient for the denomination of a scandall . for the apostle doth not speak of that effect in the places where he treats of scandalizing : nor doth it produce any hurt to our brother , unlesse it proceed to some further evill . so that if a christian should doe that , as suppose weare such fashion of cloaths , which his brother hath an opinion that it is not convenient or lawfull , and therefore dislikes it , yet because the thing is doubtfull , wisely keeps himselfe from mourning for it , censuring him , with drawing affection and communion from him , i think such a christian should not by wearing of that fashion be said to scandalize his brother . but if through weaknesse he be grieved at it , then it is scandalizing of him that is so grieved . a sixth question may be : how long we are to forbeare the use of our liberty for feare of scandall ? answ. aqu. a ae qu. . art . . resolves that the scandall of weak ones is to be avoided quousque reddita ratione scandalum cesset . si autem post redditam rationem hujusmodi scandalum duret jam videtur ex malitia esse , that is , untill a reason being rendred the scandall may cease . but if after a reason given such a scandall continue , it then seemes to be of malice . peter martyr loc . com . class . . c. . imo neque semper in ipsis mediis rebus &c. yet we may not alwaies yeeld unto the weak in things indifferent , but only untill they be more perfectly taught : but when they have understood , and yet still stand in doubt , their infirmity is not to be borne . bucan . loc . com . . quaest . . rerum mediarum usum ad proximi adhuc ex ignorantia infirmi , & in christi schola pusilli , captum moderemur , idque tantisper dum rudes isti possunt erudiri : we ought to moderate our use of things indifferent to the capacity of our neighbour as yet weak by ignorance , and a litle one in the schoole of christ , and that so long untill such ignorant persons may be instructed . the reason of which resolution is , because after instruction in true interpretation of reason , as i said before in answer to the fourth question , they that are scandalized are accounted rather wilfull then weake , and therefore not to bee regarded . whereto i adde that unlesse wee pitch here , there can be no certain rule given when men are weake , when froward : when we must forbeare our liberty , when we may use it . yet by instruction , or giving a reason , i mean not a meere magisteriall avowing of our liberty , much lesse a jesting at the weaknesse of him that doubts of it , but an humble , loving , and solid manifestation of it , to the understanding of the weake . a seaventh question may be : whether that a man may be guilty of sinfull scandall in the use of his liberty , it be not requisite that he should have some foresight , or preconceite of it , or at least such particular advertisement of the scandall consequent , as if he had heeded it he might have prevented the scandall ? ans. whereto i answere , that if a man use his liberty , and such scandall follow as he did neither foresee , nor imagine would follow , nor had any advertisement of it fit to foremind him of it , sin is not to be laid to his charge in respect of such unexpected and unthought of scandall . in this case it may be infortunium non peccatum , his mishap that his action should occasion anothers hurt , but not his sinne , to whom the scandall was by no default of his , no defect of charity , but by meere nescience in a sort unavoidable . this answer may be gathered from the apostles resolution , . cor. . . . in which the apostle tells the corinthians , that if any of thē that believe not should bid them to a feast , and they were disposed to goe , they might eate whatsoever was set before them , asking no question for conscience sake . but if any man should say to them . this is offered in sacrifice to idols , they were not to eate , for his sake that shewed it , and for conscience sake , yet not his owne conscience , for he might use his liberty in respect of his own conscience , who knew the meat offered to the idoll , to bee still neverthelesse gods creature , whose the earth is and the fulnesse thereof ; but the others conscience , who was ready to conceive some honour given to the idoll by eating the idolothyte . now from hence it is plain , that if there had bin none to give notice of the exception of the weake , there would have been no sin in him that had eaten though offence had followed , which argues that then a man onely is guilty of sin in the scandall consequent on the use of his liberty , when he hath had fore-notice thereof . adde hereto that the scandalizing of weak brethren reprehēded ro. . is called a despising , or setting at nought of a brother , ver . . . which implies manifest knowledge , that the weake were apt to bee grieved by the strong ones eating of meats : yea in reason , and agreeably to the cases resolved . rom. . . cor. . & . ch . it 's not a mans sin unlesse he know the futurition of the scandall with some morall certainty , so that if it fall out though we conceive it not likely it would , our consciences need not to be troubled for that accident : because however factes done by ignorance of those precepts which god hath enjoyned are sinnes : yet contingent events not foreseene by us , cannot make those facts of ours which are otherwise lawfull , to become sinfull though the event be harmefull . god who hath tied us to know his will which he hath enjoyned us , hath not tied us to know these accidents , which caliginosa nocte premit , he reserves in his own breast . as it is in slaying by meere chance mentioned deut. . . the killing of a man is a grievous misfortune , and in that respect to be lamented , but not a sinne , nor in that respect be repented : so in like manner such casuall scandall ( as i may so call it ) is to be bewailed as a mishap , but not to be mourned for as a sinne . an eight question may be : whether the restraint of using our liberty by reason of scandall be universall ? ans. no : scandall upon the use of our liberty , restraines us only hic & nunc : in this place at this time : it doeth not take away , but suspend the use of our liberty . so that though a man may not use his liberty where and when there are persons apt to be scandalized : yet he may where & when there are none , or he knowes of none that are apt to be scandalized . in such cases the reason of the restraint ceasing , the restraint ceaseth . and this is agreeable to the apostles determination . cor. . . . resolving that a man that might not eate meate offered to an idoll , when it was shewed him by another that it was an idolothyte , had yet his liberty of his own conscience entire : which were not true if he might eate at no time such meat , because he might not eate it at that time . to conceive otherwise inferres this absurdity , that the likelyhood , or accident of one scandall utterly extinguisheth his gratious charter of christian liberty in that thing by which he was or might be once a scandalizer . a ninth question may be : whether there may be scandall by omission of the use of our liberty in a thing indifferent ? ans. omission i oppose here to positive action : as for instance , eating meats allowed by god is a positive action , and the use of our liberty : not eating that which we might is a privation and omission of the use of our liberty . now that a man may be guilty of sinfull scandall by the omission of a duty i determined before , c. . § . . to which i adde that sith the lawfull magistrate hath power about indifferent things to restraine , or require our use of our liberty for the publique good , and we are bound to make conscience of obeying such cōmands , not for the things sake so commanded , for that is in it selfe indifferent , but by reason of the authority to which god hath made us subject , and the end for which such orders are established , which all members of a common-wealth ought to seeke : therefore the omission of doing such things commanded is an omission of a duty ( rebus sic positis ) and the scandall consequent upon it , a scandall of the first sort , to wit of sinfull example . moreover for a punctuall answer to the present question , i conceive that there may be scandall by the forbearing the use of our liberty , when that forbearing though otherwise lawfull , occasions men to conceive some alienation of affection , some evill intentions , some superstition , or the like evill in them who doe forbeare it , our saviour math. . . would have tribute mony paid for himselfe , & peter , though he were free , and that because the not-paying would offend them . s. peters not-eating with the gentiles was a scandall to barnabas gal. . . frequent experience confirmes it that the forbearing of some actions which are in their kind indifferent , at some times doth grieve weak brethren , and offend others , when they are apt to conceive such forbearance to arise out of a malevolent minde , superstitious opinion , humour of singularity , contempt of others , or the like cause . a tenth question may be : whether a community , a nation , the publique magistrate may be scandalized ? ans. the use of excommunicatiō presupposeth that scandall may be of the whole church by sinfull actions of one member . yea further it is determined art . . of the church of england . whosoever through his private judgement willingly and purposely doth openly breake the traditions , and ceremonies of the church , which bee not repugnant to the word of god , and be approved , and ordained by common authority ought to be rebuked openly ( that other may feare to doe the like ) as he that offendeth against the common order of the church , and woundeth the conscienees of the weak brethren . moreover experience shewes that whole nations or societies are sometimes offended with those who observe not their customes , or orders , which are in their use indifferent , and not confirmed by any publique ordinance , but by use only received : and that such varying from them occasions anger , enmity , and such like evills . an eleventh question may be : whether sith the magistrates authority is one way of restraining or requiring the use of our liberty , and the danger of scandall another , upon supposition , that the lawfull magistrate cōmands the doing or omitting of that which is indifferent , & on the other side there is danger of scandalizing , the question is which of these respects i am to be ruled by ? ans. there is no doubt , but that a good and wise magistrate will remit in many cases the rigour of discipline to avoide scandall , as i said before § . . as the love-feasts , kisse of peace , vigils at the tombes of martyrs , and other orders of the church were in processe of time evacuated , when they occasioned scandall . but if the magistrate doe not suspend his cōmands , then it is a hard case . for either on the one side there is danger of nullifying the power of the magistrate , or on the other side of wounding or destroying our brother : possibly it may so fall out that a mans cōscience may without much difficulty winde it selfe out of this streight , by finding some circumstances prepōderating either one way or other . as for ininstance , if the magistrats command bee about a matter of great consequence , for the safety of the common-wealth , to avoid a present evill : or if it be in a smaller matter if urged peremptorily , & vehemently , on the other side the effect of the scandall be not likely to bee plain apostacy , or the like great sinne , but some grievance of mind , or discontent of the party scandalized , it is without doubt that then the magistrates command is to be performed . on the contrary , if the magistrates command be in a smaller matter , not bringing any great evil , nor likely to infringe the power of authority though the command be not followed , if it be not peremptorily , and strictly , but remissely urged : on the other side , the effect of scandall of the greatest sort of evills , very probable , and in a manner present , giving no time to finde a way to redresse it , then in this case the danger of scandall may prevaile for that time . but if we make the scales even : and propound the case thns : what if the danger of scandall be great , and manifest , on the one side , and the magistrate peremptory in his command , and the thing commanded of great moment on the other side , the doubt is , whether of these two is to bee regarded ? i determine that the magistrates command should in this case sway our consciences : and that for these reasons following . . because by the magistrates command the thing required is made a necessary duty though in it selfe indifferent . for the command that ties every soule to be subject to the higher powers , rom. . . requires obedience to them , which is the chiefest part of subjection . and this obligation of obedience is antecedent to the consideration of the scandall . for the sanction of the law precedes the accident of scandall . now in things that are our duties wee must not omit them , or neglect them for feare of scandals . therefore the magistrates command in the case propounded is not to be neglected for feare of scandall . against this argument d r ames . lib. . de consci . c. . § . . seems to except in these words : nulla authorit as humana &c. no authority of man can either take away the nature of scandall from that which otherwise should bee scandall , or the nature of sinne from scandall given . for no man can command our charity and consciences . vel periculum scandali dati praestare , which i render thus , or counter vaile , or be preferred before the danger of scandall given . whereto i reply that it is not true that the lawfull authority of the magistrate may not in things indifferēt make the doing of that action not to bee a scandall given , which otherwise might bee . for if it may make the thing commanded a duty by vertue of the command , the scandall consequent will bee passive , or taken ; not active , or given . as we determine of preaching , and many other duties that they are to bee done though scandall follow : so we are to say of obedience to the magistrate in that wherein god hath made us subject to him wee are to obey him , though scandall follow . if it bee said that preaching is a duty immediately enjoyned by god , the doing of that which the magistrate commands only mediately : i answer . though it bee true that for this reason the thing which the magistrate commands is not so strictly our duty , as that which god commands : the magistrates commands belonging only to his owne subjects , gods commands to all : the magistrates constitutions binding us only in reference to a superiour authority , and a superiour end , the publique good , and therefore when they are contrary to the law of god , or nature , when there is some pressing necessity that cannot bee avoyded by reason of which wee cannot doe the thing commanded , if the necessity bee true , and not fained , and the not-doing of the magistrates command be without contempt of authority , or ill example to others , or if the thing commanded should be in truth plainely contrary to the publique good , as it may happen sometimes some commands may , if strictly urged , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to the letter , but gods commands binde absolutely , without limitation . i say though for these reasons the thing which the magistrate commands be not our duty so strictly as that which god immediately commands : yet when it is a duty ( as it is when it opposeth not gods law , the law of nature , or the publique safety ) there is a necessity of obeying the command of the magistrate , as of obeying gods immediate precepts : nor may the one bee omitted to avoyde scandall any more then the other . as for that which is said that the magistrate cannot restraine our charity . 't is true : for charity is an inward affection of the soule , which none but god can command , as none but hee can search , and punish , yet the magistrate may restraine the shewing of our charity somewayes , as in forbidding to relieve malefactors , rebels , vagrants &c. so that hee should sin that should preferre such a worke of charity , before a worke of obedience to the governour , which is a worke of piety to a publique person , and the father of the countrey : whereas the other is to a private person of common respect . but the magistrate cannot command our consciences . answ. that the commands of men doe in no sort bind the conscience , cannot bee said without contradicting of s. paul. rom. . . ye must needes bee subject not onely for wrath , but also for conscience sake : they that say least for governours , say they may by their lawes binde the conscience mediately , and by vertue of gods precept , although not immediately and of themselves . now this is enough to prove that it is the duty of christians to doe the lawful commands of the magistrate . as for that which is said that the danger of scandall is before the disobedience to the commands of men . i suppose not : for the evill by disobeying of the magistrate is as certaine , if not more certaine then the evill of scandall , the evill of scandall more remediable then the evill that followes on the disobeying the magistrates command : for the one is likely onely some transeunt harme in the mind or conscience of the scandalized person , the other a constant permanent harme in the common wealth , such as many times overthrowes government , and in fine dissolveth a commonwealth : the one usually extends to few , the other to the whole community . and it is taken for a plain truth . praestat ut pereat unus , quam unitas . or as caiaphas once said , it is expedient that one should dye for the people , and that the whole nation perish not . . . . adde hereto that there is a scandalizing of the publique magistrate and others by disobedience , as § . . was determined , which is as regardable as well as the scandalizing of private persons , unlesse too much partiall respect sway men , that they will not judge righteous judgement . . i argue thus , if it be not determined that the obeying of the magistrates command were to bee preferred before the declining of scandall , that may happen by such obedience , then it will follow that both the magistrate is bound to revoke or suspend his lawes , when there is likely-hood of scandall to follow . for he is not to urge men to doe that which is evill ; now this would make all governours that make conscience of their commands almost perpetually uncertaine , whether they may command any thing or no : or make their constitutions invalid , sith they can seldome make any orders , but that scandals will arise , as experience in all ages hath proved . and subjects also shall have power to neglect such constitutions , and so to make them as no lawes in the same case . the consequent of which being granted , i suppose can bee no lesse then anarchy , and confusion . the mischiefe of which is greater then i can expresse , and such as the avoyding of scandalizing of some soules cannot countervaile : wherefore as it is said in the case of exacting an oath of a persō , that ( it's likely ) will forsweare himselfe . fiat justitia & ruat coelum . let justice proceed , though the heaven fall : so say i , let goverment stand though subjects bee scandalized . . lastly , if a man in doing any lawfull thing make it knowne that hee must doe it by reason of the command of authority , or it bee otherwise manifest that that is indeed the reason of his doing , surely he that is offended is rather unrighteous , and evill minded , then weake , that will think that lawes must bee broken to please him : and therefore the scandalizing of such not regardable . a twelfth question may be : if it fall out that in the doing or omitting of a thing indifferent some will bee scandalized if it be done , others if omitted , some offended if it be done this way , some offēded if not done this way , so that there is apparent danger of scandall either way , what is to be done in such a case ? ans. d. ames . l. . de conscientia . c. . § . . denies the case and sayes , nulla datur talis perplexitas , ut necessarium sit pio homini sive hoc vel illud faciat , sive non faciat scandalum alicui dare : there can bee no such perplexity , that it should bee necessary for a godly man , whether he doe this or that or not doe it to scandalize some one . which assertion of his is both against experience , and reason . against experience : for the contrary fell out in s. peters case , gal. . . in which it is plaine in the carriage of that matter , that if he did eat with the gentiles he was in danger of scandalizing the iewes , if hee did not eate with them to scandalize the gentiles . and it falls out too frequently in our own dayes , that in the use of some rites in themselves indifferent , some are offended with the use of them as popish , some with the not using them as arguing the affectation of novellisme and singularity : against reason . for sith scandall ariseth from the opinion that is had of a thing indifferent , when the action of him that offendeth dasheth against it , and it is undoubted that even godly men , may have opposite opinions of things indifferent , one thinking them fit , another unfit : one thinking them needfull , another evill , it is plaine in reason that it may so fall out that the doing or not doing of somthing indifferent may crosse the one or the other of the opposite opinions , and so scandalize either the one or the other . the resolution of calvin , epist. . is right and good , that a scandall of a few must not sway us in a thing not repugnant to gods word . vbi major numerus pervincit , where the greater part is on the cōtrary , no not though it draw an evil consequence after it . and in like manner may it be said , ubi potior numerus pervincit , where the better part is on the contrary , as the governor , the most wise , learned , and faithfull christians . likewise consideration should be had to offend those rather whose offence is easier remedied , or the consequēce of their scandall lesse pernitious , then those whose offence is more hardly redressed , or the consequence of their scandall more pernitious . for in such cases prudence must rule our consciences to respect primarily the more considerable par , & to avoyd the more dangerous consequence . a thirteenth question may be : it may so fall out that either by the frequent , or incommodious forbearing of the use of our liberty at some time , our lawfull liberty may be so indangered , that an opinion may thereby be setled as if it were unlawfull simply , which we forbeare onely by reason of the feare of scandall , or as if it were necessary which wee onely doe to avoyde scandall , what is a christian to doe in this case ? answ. the example of s. paul is commonly by divines produced as a resolution of this question . we read acts. . . that paul tooke and circumcised timothy to avoyd the offence of the iewes though the law of circumcision , and other legall ceremonies were then abolished : and hee had liberty to omit it . but hee tells us gal. . . . that titus was not compelled to be circumcised , and that because of false brethren unawares brought in , who came in privily to spye out our liberty , which we have in christ iesus , that they might bring us into bondage . to whom saith he : v. . we gave place by subjection no not for an houre , that the truth of the gospell might continue with them . while the liberty of uncircumcision was unchallenged he did with security circumcise timothy to avoyde offence : but when the truth of christian liberty was challenged and endangered he would not yeild to doe the same to titus . from which practise avouched by s. paul , and therefore propounded by the holy ghost as imitable by us , this rule may bee safely inferred : that when by use or disuse of our liberty , the truth of our liberty is in danger to be impeached , wee are then rather to put our selves on the hazard of scandall , then to loose our liberty it selfe . for it is a more pretious thing not to have our consciences in bondage or the truth impaired , then can be countervailed by the pleasing of some men . truth is an unvalluble iewell , which wee are not to forfeit to win mens affections . praestat ut scandalum admittatur , quam veritas amittatur : is the approved rule of s. augustine . better admit scandall then loose truth . a fourteenth question may be : whether if on the one side our life should be indangered by forbearing the use of our liberty , and on the other side there be likely-hood of scandall if we use it , is our liberty to bee used to save our lives , or to be forborn to avoyd scandall ? answ. it is a rule received , which aqu. a , ae , qu. . art . . cites as out of s. hierome , that that which may be omitted , salvà triplici veritatescil . vitae , justitiae , & doctrinae , a threefold truth of life , righteousnesse and doctrine being preserved , ought to be omitted to avoyde scandall . according to which exception it followes that wee are not to omit our liberty when our life is endangered . and there is plain reason for it , from the precedency of our selves among the objects of charity before others : wee are to love others as ourselves , not afore our selves . . in respect of the greatnesse of the danger of loosing our life above the danger of scandall . for , . the danger of loosing life may be more certain in forbearing our liberty , when naturall necessity requires us to use it , then the event of scandall can be , depending on the changeable mind and will of man. . the evill of loosing life is plainely remedilesse : life lost cannot be recovered by man : but the evill of scandall is not simpliciter irremediabile , simply remedilesse , but that instruction , advise , example , prayers may by gods blessing restore the person scandalized . if it were so that it were revealed by god that by using my liberty to save my naturall life , i should inevitably cast my brother into everlasting fire , surely charity bindes mee to loose my life rather then to damne my brother . but this no man doth by using his liberty , at least god reveales no such thing . but what means the apostle then . cor. . . when hee saith ; if meat make my brother to offend , i will eat no flesh while the world standeth , least i make my brother to offend ? i answer : the apostles resolution is not to abandon all meat and dye to avoyd offence : but to eat no flesh , without which he might live . and accordingly wee are to forbeare our conveniences , and priviledges which serve us ad benè esse to our well-being : but not our lives or lively-hood that is necessary ad esse , simpliciter , that wee may have a being . a fifteenth question may be : whether if there appear danger of scandal to some in using our liberty , and likely-hood of opposite good to others by using it , we are to forbeare it ? ans. no : for in this case the use of our liberty to that end is a duty , as being a greater exercise of charity , the scandall being not remedilesse , unlesse by reason of a perverse mind : which kind of scandall is not to be regarded . a sixteenth question may be : whether wee are bound to forbeare the use of our liberty to avoyde the scandall of our weake brother offended with our action as conceiving it evill without any probable ground ? answ. i thinke not . for there was probable ground of the evill of eating the idolothytes . cor. . and of the eating of the meates and neglect of dayes mentioned rom. . and in reason , if a mans conceit without shew of reason on meere fancy shall hinder me in the use of my liberty , my liberty is no liberty in effect . besides if hee conceive ill of my action without some probable reasons moving him therto , his conceit is rather to be interpreted an effect of selfe-will , or ill will then of weaknesse , and so not to be regarded : if it be objected , as frequently it is , that the apostle . thes. . . chargeth christians thus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . abstaine from all appearance of evill , and therefore wee are not to doe that which seemes to bee evill to another , whether upon probable reason or fancy though it be not in it selfe evill . i answere , . that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies the sort or kind of things , answering to genus and species , as cicero renders it , and that tremellius out of the syriak translates it ab omni voluntate malâ fugite , fly from all evill will , that is , as he interprets it in the marginall note , negotio malo , sive re malâ , evill businesse , or evill thing , so that it might be translated , abstaine from every evill thing , or every sort of evill . . that though beza with others read ab omni specie mali , from every appearance of evill : and expound it not only of that which is evill in it selfe , but also of that which though not evill in it selfe , yet seems so to others : yet more plainly according to the originall it is translated by the vulgar and tigurine translators , ab omni specie mala , from every shew which is evill . according to either of which readings this text will prove only that we are to avoide that which is an evill thing or appearance it selfe evill , and makes nothing to prove that we ought to abstaine from a thing or appearance not evill but indifferent . . that chrysostome , the greeke scholiast , and others apply it onely to false doctrines , or lies of false prophets . as if the apostle had said , though you are not to quench the spirit , yet you are to try all doctrines , and to abstaine from that which appears evill : which would be nothing to the abstaining from the use of things indifferent , when they seem evill to another . . but let it be granted , that it is meant of evill appearance in respect of practise , yet it may be doubted whether the apostle means it of that which appears evill to another or to a mans selfe ? surely the series of the text doth best suite with this interpretation . abstaine from that which appears to your selves to be evill : for having said , try all things , whether doctrines or practises , to direct thē what to doe he addes , holde that wich is good , that is what you finde upon triall to be good , and abstaine from all evill appearance , or appearance of evill , which so appears to you upon your triall . which exposition besides that the words of calvin in his commentary imply he so conceived it , hath other learned men that approve it , and so farre as i see into the text seems to be most genuine . now if this exposition stand , it makes nothing for the abstaining from the use of our lawfull liberty which appears evill to another , but from that doctrine or practise which appears to be evill to our selves , that we may not sinne against the light of our own conscience . lastly , if it were granted that the apostle forbiddes us to abstaine from all that which appears to be evill to another , yet no interpreter that i meet with understands it of such appearance of evill , as is conceited to be such upon some erroneous principles in him that conceives it to be such , or by reason of the meere fancy , or rigid austerity , or evill will , or such like cause of him that thinkes it evill : but they usually apply it to such causes or signes of manifest evil as are means of drawing to some notorious sinne , as going to heare a masse , which is a cause and signe of idolatry , or wanton dalliance which is a cause or signe of whoredome . and they apply hereto that saying of iulius caesar , that caesars wife should be free not only from evill , but also from the suspition of it . so that even in their intent , this scripture is not appliable to this purpose , as if the apostle did prohibite a christian to use any thing that another thought evill , whether he thought so upon probable reason , or no reason , upon some ground or none . and to speak truth , the application of this text in that manner as it is by some , as if the apostle did forbid us the use of any thing though indifferent in it selfe , when it appears as evill to another , without farther restraint , is very absurd and so unreasonable as that it will bring a yoake upon mens consciences impossible to be borne , sith there is scarce any thing a man can doe , but some or other , infidell or christian , weake or strong in the faith , orthodoxe or superstitious will think it to be evil , that saying by experience being found true , quot homines , tot sententiae , so many men , so many mindes : nor shall a mans own conscience only make a thing evill to him , but the conscience of any other man in the world . these are the most material questions which have occurred to mee . which having finished , i passe on to application & so to the concluding of this point . first then wee may hence perceive how evill and uncharitable their dispositions are , who use their liberty in things lawfull without heeding of scandall , surely there are every where a great number of men of this temper , that will eate and drinke and play , & cloath themselves , and doe innumerable other acts without the least thought , or regard whether others be pleased or displeased , scādalized , perverted by their actions . alas ! said i they will doe these things without respect of avoiding scandall ? i might have added , there be not a few that make but a jest of scruples concerning scandall , yea that of set-purpose with delight doe such things as they know will offend , that they may provoke and offend their brethren . all such persons doe undoubtedly walke after their owne lusts , who neither for god nor for mans sake deny themselves any thing . it is manifest that it is their lust that rules them , not obedience to god , not charity to men , not advised reason : and it shewes a heart in them ready to doe unlawfull things for their lust , who will doe lawfull things so unlawfully . my brethren we are most apt to offend in things indifferent : it 's easie to slip from the meane to some extreame or other ; and so much the rather because in such things men usually walke not with much warinesse ; in things plainly evill , mens consciences will easily checke and correct themselves , because the evill is so apparent : but in things indifferent , men fall into evill afore they are aware . wherefore those that are wise-hearted , and right-hearted christians , will so much the more watch themselves in the use of such things : they are carefull neither to offend god , nor men , neither to abuse their priviledges against gods glory , nor their brethrens good ; only men whose lust is their law , will have their sports , feasts , fashions , and the like things in themselves lawfull , after their owne wills , though god be provoked , or their brethren damnified . wherefore it concerns us all to take heed of scandall in the use of our liberty in things indifferent : i meane of scandall both active and passive : and therefore this admonition is to be conceived as pertaining both to them that use their liberty , and them that may be offended with it . . those that are to use their liberty are to take heed that they marre not their good by evill-handling , to wit by using it to destruction , and not to edification of their brethren . our liberty is a great blessing of god : it is no small benefit that we may have his creatures to use , that he hath made us under himselfe lords over the works of his hands : and though he require obedience of us , yet he hath given us a large scope in things after our owne wills , enough to satisfy us if we have any reason : we may eat this or that , weare this or that , dwell here or there , and a thousand more such things are left to our owne choice : but what then ? shall we grow petulant and wanton ? shall we be like an ungracious sonne , who when his father hath put an estate in his hand , followes his owne pleasure , regarding neither parents nor brethren ? god forbid we should thus requite the lord ! nay rather it becomes us , as wee have all our priviledges from god , so to doe as a good child to a kinde father , a generous favorite to a munificent prince , even to lay all our gifts at the donours feet , to devote them all to his honour that gave them freely : to spend that for his service which he hath so frankly endowed us with . it 's to bee remembred that we are not proprietaries , but vsufructuaries of gods creatures : they are his goods still , though put into our hands , to occupy : the earth is still the lords and the fulnes thereof : we may not say of it , wee may doe with our owne as we list . that wee ought to doe which the apostle inferres hereupon , whether wee eat or drinke , or whatsoever we doe , doe all to the glory of god. . cor. . . not forgetting our brethren , but as it is added v. . giving none offence , neither to the iewes , nor to the gentiles , nor to the church of god : or as we are admonished . gal. . . though we are called to liberty , yet not to use our liberty for an occasion to the flesh : but by love to serve one another . it will be but a miserable advantage to vs to vse our liberty , so as to spurn at gods honour , and to trample our brethrens good vnder our feete : to obscure the lustre of gods glory , or to make gashes in our brothers conscience . shall a man because he is strong , kicke the weake under his feet ? shall a man use his owne happines no better , but to make others miserable ? no , no , ( brethren ) : mercy , iustice , charity , our calling , christs example , all these and more then these should teach us better , to seeke not our owne , but one anothers wealth , to use our owne good , so as not to spoyle anothers peace . we are to remember , that as our saviour said , we should have the poore alwayes with us , so it is true also , that we shall have the weake in faith alwayes with us , and therefore it will be a perpetuall duty , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 acts . . to support , not to supplant the weake . — to this end , . get a tender , and compassionate love of thy brother in thy heart : thou art bound to love all men : but thy christian brother chiefly . let the love of christ to thee , and him be thy patterne : he would not breake a bruised reed , nor quench smoaking flaxe : isai. . . he fed his flock like a sheepheard : hee gathered the lambes with his arme and carried them in his bosome , and gently led those that were with young . isai. . . oh get such a tender love , that yee may be as the apostle requires , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rom. . . inclined to tender affectionate kindnesse one to another in brotherly love , that thou maist communicate to them the warmth of thy bosome , that they may have heate by thee , and the kissing of thy mouth , that they may have delight by thee , and the strength of thy armes , that they may have safety by thee , not be exposed by thee to dangers , much lesse bitten and devoured by thee : you are not borne for your selves : you have not your goods only to serve your owne turnes . they are thy bone , and thy flesh , yea thy spirit too , if a christian . if there be any excellency in thee : yet both are of the same kind : if thou differest from him , yet who made thee to differ from him ? or what hast thou that thou hast not received ? love him therefore and despise him not : bee tender over him , and not contemne him : . get much prudence also to know the condition , inclination , minde of thy brother . much charity may make us willing , but there must be much prudence also to make us able to avoyde scandalizing . there 's such variety of dispositions , opinions , and conditions of men that it is no small difficulty to avoyde scandalizing of some one or other . neverthelesse if we doe what lyes in us , the almighty will accept of the integrity of our hearts , and not impute to us our defects of imprudence . and here i could heartily wish that all christians , especially those that are set apart for the ministery of the word , would take heed of one evill to which in these times men are very prone . i meane the teaching of many things to be evill , whose abuse only is evill , not the things themselves , for what ever bee the cause whether it bee facility of sliding into extreames , or unskilfullnesse to distinguish betweene the use and abuse of things indifferent , or the debility that is in many to reason , and to gather right consequences , or the preoccupating of mens minds with erroneous principles , or that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as s t basill calls it , the immoderate drawing things to a contrary way , as to think that to be most right which seemes most contrary to popery , prophanesse , or the vitiousnesse of the times , or the addictednesse that is in men to hold that which their affected teachers doe vent , or studium partium , a desire to promote some party , or to have , and to entertaine opinions peculiar to such a party as a cognizance for them to be discerned by from others , or an affectation of singular opinions , i say what ever bee the cause the great charter of christian liberty is too much inlarged by the licentious , who make that indifferent which is evill , or necessary , to the confirming of themselves in sin : and on the other side is too much straitned by others , in making things evill which are not so , expunging that out of this gracious charter , which god hath indulgently granted us therein . both which are contrary to gods precepts , which require us neither to cal good evill , nor evill good . isai. . . to turne neither to the right hand nor to the left . deut. . . and therefore as the one is a transgression against god , plainely violating his precepts : so the other is an intollerable presumption against the soveraigne authority of the great law-maker to impose lawes on mens consciences which god hath not made : and in the effects of it , it is dangerous . for it is in truth a seminary of superstitions , which doe alwayes attend errours of conscience , and the great nursery of scandalls , in intangling mens consciences with unnecessary scruples , disquieting and discomforting men thereby , occasioning the neglect of necessary duties whilst zeale is bent on things unnecessary , raising many jealousies , alienation of affections from others , rash judging , seperation from communion , and a world of other evils , which according to the fruitfullnesse of errour arise from this one roote . wherefore i beseech all christians , specially ministers of the word in the bowells of iesus christ , to bee very well advised either how they allow of that as lawfull which is indeed sinfull , or condemne that as sinfull which is indeed lawfull , and in their invectives against sinne , so to attemperate their speeches , that the abuse and use of things bee distinguished , that corne bee not pulled up for the weeds sake . . as for those that are apt to be scandalized , it concernes them to consider that their taking offence at their brothers liberty is their owne weaknesse , and danger . it 's sure thy weaknesse of judgement , or affection that thou art so apt to stumble at thy brothers actions . and is not weaknesse burden enough to thy selfe , but that it must also become thy brothers burden ? wilt thou make thy ignorance his punishment ? learne better that most necessary lesson , descendere in teipsum , to look into thy selfe , and to know thy selfe : to take a right measure of thy knowledge , and to submit thy selfe to the reasons and judgements of the stronger . it concernes the father to bee indulgent to his childs weakenesse : but the child should learne to submit to the fathers judgement . the stronger should favour the weaker , but the weaker should preferre the stronger before themselves . . it 's thy danger also : how dost thou by such stumbling incommodate thy selfe ! thou mightest learne good by thy stronger brother , thou takest harme : hee might bee a staffe to stay thee , thou makest him a stumbling-block to overthrow thee : he might ease thy conscience , so as to walke more comfortably : thou makest use of him onely to fetter thy conscience that it may walke more heavily : he might heale thy sores : hee doth but would : ther 's disagreement from that which should promote charity , a breach where there should bee strongest affection . doe not thy selfe so much harme , thy brother so much wrong . to this end receive from me these directions . . acquaint thy selfe with the difference that is to bee made between superstructures and fundamentalls of christian doctrine , whether of faith or practice : know this , that though hee is no true beleever , that beleeves not all gods truth which hee knowes to bee gods truth , nor truly obedient that obeyes not all gods precepts , which hee knowes to be such , yet he may bee a true beleever , and truly obedient , who beleeving and practising fundamentals , things necessary to be knowne and practised by all , yet beleeves not , or practiseth not sundry superstructures , not out of unbeleife of god or enmity to his will , but simple ignorance . bee not then hardly conceited of him that knowes not , or practiseth not through ignorance things not fundamentall , especially if they be remote from the foundation . let not thy zeale be equall for the smaller and the greater matters of the law , as our saviour distinguisheth them , mat. . . . bee not rash or too stiffe in thy opinion , when it is circa disput abilia , about disputable points , such as honest and learned men doe vary in , so that it can bee hardly discerned , who is in the right . let thy conceits of thy selfe be modest : and bee willing to learne from a-any one that which is truth . . be not apt to suspect anothers unsoundnes : iudge not that thou be not judged . mat. . . who art thou that judgest anothers servant ? rom. . . why dost thou judge thy brother ? wee shall all stand before the judgement seat of christ. vers . . . lastly wherein thou agreest with thy brother , what thou hast learned as he hath done , professe that ; practise that with concord , and waite till god shall joyne you together in one mind , and one way for the rest . remember that golden rule of the apostle . philip. . , . let us therefore as many as be perfect bee thus minded : and if in any thing yee bee otherwise minded , god shall reveale even this unto you . neverthelesse whereto wee have already attained , let us walke by the same rule , let us mind the same thing . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by enticing practises . the next way of scandalizing is by devised practises intended to beguile mens soules , and to harme their consciences : to which also the generall assertion is to be applyed , and a woe is to bee pronounced as belonging to them that by cunning and subtle devices , by counsels , perswasions , laying before men alluring objects , doe scandalize others . such a one was balaam , revel . . . who taught balaak to cast a stumbling-block before the children of israel , to eat things sacrificed to idols , and to commit fornication . but gods vengeance followed him , he was slaine with the sword by the israelites , num. . . and s t iude vers . . tells us , a woe is to them that runne greedily after the errour of balaam for reward . of the same stamp was ieroboam the sonne of nebat , who caused israel to sin , by setting up two calves of gold , one in bethel , and the other in dan , instituting high places , and priests of those calves , offering sacrifices , and keeping a feast to them . . kings . . &c. the issue of which was the cutting off his house , and destroying it from off the face of the earth . . kings . . . and he his still stiled by the holy ghost ieroboam the sonne of nebat which caused israel to sinne . the like woe in some one way or another belongs to all those that tread in the same steps . to conceive more fully of this sort of scandalizing , we are to consider that this kinde of scandalizing hath diverse acts . the first and principall is in the braine , that contrives some pernitious device to ensnare mens soules by , for the most part intended to that end : but if it stay there , and shew not it●selfe in outward act , it is only a scandall inchoate or begun . the outward acts by which it shewes it selfe , are either of words , or of deeds . we may see it in the scandall of balaam & balak : balaam deviseth a way to scandalize the israelites by sending the whoorish daughters of moab among them , thereby enticing them to commit whoredome , and to joyne with them in their idol-feasts : balaam deviseth this , he imparts it to balak , and he puts it in practise : in this balaam was the principall , balak the ac●essary : balaam began the scandall , balak perfected it . ionadab the son of shimeah deviseth a way for amnon to practise his incestuous lust with his sister tamar , & adviseth him to execute it , by which he committed a foule sin . . sam. . . this counsell of ionadab was a scandall to amnon by a subtil way . iulian the apostata abstaines from the shedding the blood of christiās which diocletian , & other emperours before had shed : he saw that it did but encrease christianity , men being ambitious of death that they might have the honour and crowne of martyrdome . but hee useth sly and cunning devices to insnare men in paganisme , he promotes the most zealous pagans , makes the schooles free only for them , countenances them , ieeres at the doctrine of christ , scoffs at the rites of christians , foments their contentions , and thereby drawes many to apostasie ; many to a love of paganisme , and thereby scandalizeth them . innumerable of the like subtil devices are used in every age to insnare mens souls by enticing them to doe evill . and this sort of scandalizing differs from that scandall which is by sinfull example , in that the action of such scandall is intended onely for to satisfie the doers lust , though it becomes scandalous by it's venomous nature : the scandall by an enticing practise is sinfull , and intended also to further sin , though sometimes the scandalizer know not the thing hee perswades to , to be sin . it differs also from scandall by persecutiō in that that scandall is by force , the other by fraud . now all such kinde of scandalizing by enticeing practises in sinfull and deserves woe , but all is not alike sinfull : nor hath the same degree of woe awarded to it : for difference is to bee made between scandalizers according to the part they act in this tragoedy , or mischiefe of scandals . for there are some that are the contrivers , & counsellours of such divellish machinations : others only moti movent , being set on worke they execute . the inventer & perswader in this thing is deeper in the guilt of the scandal then the meere actor . for it is more voluntary in him that contrives , more of his own motion , than it is in him that acts what another suggests . he that leads and rules the other is the principall , hee that consents and followes is but a second . wherefore the scandalizing of the children of israel by the daughters of moab is rather in scripture imputed to balaam , who taught that wicked device , then to balak who put it into execution : and ieroboam that devised the golden calves is rather said to cause israel to sinne , then the workman that made and set them up . secondly , difference is to be made between scādalizers of this kinde in respect of the several motives which lead them to offend others . for first , some doe scandalize others out of craft for their ungodly and unrighteous ends . thus balaam the sonne of peor devised a way to scandalize the israelites that hee might gaine the wages of unrighteousnesse . . pet. . . ieroboam the sonne of nebat sets up two golden calves at dan & bethel , which became a snare to the people of israel , & this was done to maintaine his rebellion against his prince , and confirme the kingdome to himselfe , . kings . . . . jonadab the son of shimeah perswades amnon to ravish his sister , & this was done that hee might the more ingratiate himselfe to amnon his friend . . sam. . . the pharisees devised waies of superstition and hypocrisie that they might devoure widowes houses . mat. . . . elymas the sorcerer with subtilty seeks to turn away the deputy from the faith , that hee might retain his power with him . acts. . . . the false apostles sought to corrupt the faith of the galathians concerning iustification by the law that s. paul being excluded , themselves might be affected . gal. . . those of whom the apostle saies , . tim. . . that crept into houses , and lead away silly women laden with sins led away with divers lusts , did it no doubt to make a prey of them . and with the same spirit at this day doe many seducing iesuites and seminary priests bred of the smoke of the bottomlesse pit scandalize many ignorant or corrupt soules by drawing them to their impious idolatry , & superstition , their antichristian errors and deceits , that they may maintaine the unrighteous tyranny of the roman bishops , maintaine thēselves , their colledges , and fraternities in a rich and plentifull manner by drurifying ( as the secular priests call it ) that is by cheating their proselytes . and no better are the ends of many other heretiques , as socinians , anabaptists , familists , separatists and the rest of the litter of grievous wolves , as s. paul calls them , acts . . that enter among christians and spare not the flock . cosin-germanes to which are all that for wicked ends corrupt mens consciences : as the harlot that enticeth lovers to her for gaine : that corrupt young heires in their manners by humouring them , pleasing them in their vaine lusts of swaggering and gallantry ( as they call it ) that they may in fine cheate them of their lands or money by gameing with them , or some such practise : that make their neighbours drinke , put the bottle to them , and make them drunken , that they may see their nakednesse ; an use in habakkuks times . hab : . . that they may discover their secrets , robbe their pockets , draw them to suretiship for them , and such other evill purposes . now all these doe scandalize plenâ voluntate , with full will , wittingly & deliberately , and thereby shew themselves to bee full of satan , throughly diabolized professours of his art , which is to make it his businesse , to goe about seeking whom he may devoure : they are as s. paul called elymas , acts . . children of the divell , enemies to righteousnesse , that cease not to pervert the right wayes of the lord. . some doe scandalize others by enticing practises not out of any oblique or indirect ends contrary to their pretences : but out of love and zeale to their errours , or other things wherein they scandalize them . of this sort are many heretiques and scismatiques , and idolaters that sollicite men to embrace the errours they hold , or the superstitions they practise out of meer zeale to their errours and superstitions . iezabel was zealous for the worship of baal , and therefore shee entertaines and promotes the priests of baal at her owne table , that shee might further her superstition , out of the mad affection shee had to the idol . saint paul sayes of the iewes that went about to establish their owne righteousnesse that they did it out of a zeale of god , though not according to knowledge , ro : . . there are not a few that corrupt others by enticing them to drunkennesse , idlenesse &c. for no other end but because they love their sin , and would have as many companions with them in their sin as they can infect , to build up the divells kingdome . the adulteresse with much faire speech drawes the simple young man to cōmit lewdnes with her , only to satisfy her immoderate lust , pr. . . these are very grievous scandalizers harming and destroying their brethrens soules to further their sin , and to make others children of hell like themselves . and it shewes in them a wicked disposition that loves and delights in evill . yet because it is out of some ignorance ( though it bee such as is pravae dispositionis , of an evill disposition ) it is therefore lesse voluntary then the former , and thereby lesse evill , and lesse obnoxious to woe . . some doe scandalize others by faire words out of misguided love to the persons they scandalize : so that the motive hereof is an affection of love compounded with ignorance , and imprudence . thus peter advised christ to decline his sufferings , out of love as he thought : but ignorantly , and therefore our saviour rejected counsell as savouring of a meere carnall and humane affection . mat. . . telling him that hee was a scandall to him . in this manner many carnall parents have disswaded their children from martyrdome , from zeale , and forwardnesse in religion , least they should bee lost , as they thinke , become melancholy , unfashionable , misse their preferment , be mocked by men of the world &c. wherein they thinke they shew much love to thē , but do indeed scandalize , or harme their soules , as peter did christ. but the woe due to this is lesse then the former , because it is lesse voluntary , as being not out of a love to the evill , but to the persons they perswade through simple ignorance of the evill to which they perswade . thirdly difference is to be made of scandalizeing in this kind according to the matter or thing wherein they scandalize them . for sometimes men doe lay a stumbling block by seducing men from the truth , in credendis , in matters of faith . as those of whom s. peter speakes , . pet. . . that brought in damnable heresies , or heresies of perdition : and those of whom s. paul speaks , that sought to deprive christians of their liberty in christ , that they might bring them into bondage , gal. . . those that corrupted mens minds from the simplicity that is in christ. . cor. . . some doe scandalize others in agendis , in matters of practise , whether pertaining to religion , or to civill conversation . as balaam that corrupted the israelites in both : and all others that draw men to superstition , intemperance and the like sinnes . now the former are ( caeteris paribus , other things being alike ) the worse sort of scandalizers : for as much as a pernitious errour in matters of faith is more dangerous , as more easily spreading and infecting the minds , then a corrupt practise that hath lesse colour for it , and likely more resistance . the reasons why a woe belongs to such scandalizers are . because they are plaine and manifest agents and factors for satan and his kingdome . our lord christ called peter satan , when he was a scandall to him , though but out of imprudence . mat. . . much more justly may the title be fastened on him that scandalizeth out of craft , who is ingeniosè nequam , wittily wicked . for this reason s. paule styled elymas the sorcerer a child of the divell , because he did not cease to pervert the right waies of the lord , act. . . for what doe such but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with open face declare themselves for satan , and associate themselves to him in promoting his worke , which is the devouring of soules : and therefore may expect his pay , to whose service they have addicted themselves . . because they are direct enemies to god. s. paul stiled elymas , an enimy to all righteousnesse . acts . . and what is an enemy to righteousnesse , but an enemy to god , who loveth righteousnesse and hateth iniquity ? what doe such scandalizers but apply themselves to seduce men from their subjection to gods kingdome : and as much as in them lies , overthrow his dominion ? now such as shew enmity against god may justly expect hostility from him against them , wrath in requitall of their unrighteousnesse , and that in proportionable measure , answerable to the measure of their iniquity . for application of this truth . . we may hereby discover the great guilt that lies on them , that by this way scandalize others , and the great misery that belongs to them . surely there are every where many , who at least through imprudence doe scandalize men to their ruine by insinuating practises : many carnall parents that relish not the word of life themselves , out of prejudice against godlinesse , and holy zeale disswade their children from diligence in duties of godlinesse , prayer , reading , hearing , meditating on gods word , as conceiving that these things will make them silly , unfashionable , unsociable , dejected , melancholick , opinionative , that it will hinder their credit and preferment . and therefore divert the current of their minds to the reading of poems , play-bookes , amorous writings , acquaint them with merry company , pregnant wits , that they may learne gallantry of behaviour , whet their wits , erect their spirits . but instead of learning these things , they learne for the most part the damnable arts of swearing , whoring , sighting , drinking , riot , scoffing at religion , and the rest of those hellish courses , which are in these daies vailed under the name of bravery of spirit , and gallantry of carriage . and this falls out by gods just judgement , that while parents are enemies to that noble service which their children by their godlinesse , and holy zeale might doe for god the soveraigne lord ; to that heroicall fortitude of minde , in contemning the world , and bearing the extreamest evills for christs sake , which faith produceth ; that incomparable joy , that true liberty which a holy life begetteth , that surpassing wisdome , and usefull worth that attend the knowledge of god , and an upright heart towards him : their children should fall into the basest services of their own lusts , & of satans will : enslave themselves to whores , and drinke , and such like effaeminating things , be filled with meere vanity , empty of reall worth , and prove a griefe to their parents , a burden to their countrey , the ruine of their houses , and which is yet worst , children of hell . and as this is the course of too many ill-advised parents , so it is the manner of too many unfaithfull friends , and misguided masters , who being led by the same spirit endeavour to quench the beginnings of new birth in their friends , and servants , by their counsells : if they perceive in them any sense of sin , any degree of humiliation , any application of their minds to religion , any alienation of their minds from the prophanenes & vanity of the world , they set their wits on worke how to prevent them , conceiving they shall doe them a pleasure , when as their counsells tend to their perdition . and thus they doe as they say apes doe to their young ones , amplexando strangulant , by hugging them , they kill them . unhappy men ! that thinking to doe good , destroy those whō they love , and procure a woe to their own soules in recompence of their counsells , that under the covert of friendship act satans part : and precipitate themselves and their followers into perdition : but besides these there are not a few , who are zealous for corrupt opinions , for superstitious traditions , for drunken usages , for prophane libertinisme &c. and others who out of craftie reaches , and subdolous intentions , for worldly advantages apply themselves to seduce others . of which sort are no doubt many emissaries out of popish seminaries , agents for separation , and other seedesmen of tares . shall i take up the apostles wish , gal. . . i would they were cut off that trouble us ? so indeed we wish , but my text puts me out of hope of attaining it in this life , & therefore i can doe no more but only read their doome , that a heavy direfull woe hangs over their heads , which will as surely fall on them , as god is true . for how can it be otherwise , but that gods wrath should break forth against those that continue practises against him as his enimies ? can any prince brook the sowers of sedition , the seducers of his subjects from their allegiance , the underminers of his authority ? if claudius caesar were so blockish , we shall seldome meet with such another . certaine it is , god will not so put it up , he hath proclaimed himselfe to be a god that will by no means cleare the guilty . exod. . . that he will repay them that hate him to their face : let no man deceive himselfe , god is not mocked . there is a treasure of wrath reserved for all such factors for hell . the same cup that balaam and ieroboam , and iannes and iambres and elymas dranke of shall all seducing iesuits & inveigling sectaries and promoters of licentiousnesse drinke of . the same judgement abides them : the same hell must hold them . wherefore in the next place admonitiō is needfull . . to those that out of imprudence doe scandalize , that they consider what they doe . thou that disswadest frō that which is good , out of ill-advised love , consider better what thou doest . wilt thou disswade that which god commands ? wilt thou goe about to crosse his worke ? gamaliels saying should lesson us better : that which is of god we cannot overthrow , least haply we be found even to fight against god. acts . . wilt thou destroy thy brothers soule whom thou thinkest to benefit ? wilt thou doe the divell service under shew of a good office to thy friend ? s. peters case should be a memento to thee , that thou maist deserve the title of satan by such officiousnesse . . to those that out of zeale to their opinions and affection to their waies doe scandalize , that they look well what it is they are zealous for , it is good alwaies to be zealous in a good thing , gal. . . but in evill the more zeale the worse . nothing worse then iezabels zeale for baal ; nothing better then elijahs zeale for god. in a wrong way , the faster a man runnes , the worse ; in a right way , the better . it is mischievous enough to scandalize others ignorantly ; it is more mischievous when it is done with zeale : for that is done with more activity , and after a more pernitious manner . it is pitty good mettall should be ill placed . it might doe much good were it rightly used , use thy zeale for god , it will be thy happinesse ; if thou use it for evill , it will be thy madnesse . . to those that scandalize others out of crafty and evill intendments , that they doe but weave a net to catch themselves . thou that art willingly the divels agent , take this with thee , that the divell will over-reach in the end . what wages have witches , the divels covenant servants , but confusion ? and what reward canst thou that art the divels hired servant expect but destruction ? thou hast sold thy self to worke wickednesse : and iniquity shall bee thy ruine : while thou doest destroy thy brothers soule , thou doest by the same labour damne thine own . oh take this wholesome counsell : repent of this thy wickednesse : and pray god , if perhaps the thoughts of thine heart may be forgiven thee : acts . . use thy wit and zeale for god who will doe thee good : debase not thy selfe to doe the divell service , who loves thee onely as a salvage doth , that hee may devoure thee . § . . lastly for those that are in danger of being scandalized by such practises , it concernes them . to walke by the light of gods word . for it is light that must keepe us from stumbling : if a man walke in the day hee stumbleth not , because hee seeth the light of this world . but if a man walke in the night he stumbleth , because there is no light in him . iohn . . . so it is concerning the soule , if there be ignorance and errour in it , it is easily scandalized , but light and understanding preserve a man safe . . to look well to thy goings , without which thou maist stumble though thou have light before thee . remember then that of solomon , prov. . . the simple beleiveth every word : but the prudent man looketh well to his goings . bee not easily credulous then of mens counsells : trust not lightly to their judgements : try their spirits , examine their counsels , & opiniōs afore thou embrace them . forget not s. pauls rule , rom. . . to marke them which cause divisions , and offences contrary to the doctrine which is delivered to us , and avoyd them . for they that are such serve not our lord iesus christ , but their owne belly , and by good words and faire speeches deceive the hearts of the simple cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by persecution . the fourth way of scandalizing in the distribution before made is scandalizing by injuring or persecuting . this way maldonate conceives our saviour specially intended vers . . and he gathers it from the antithesis as it is set down by s. mat. ch : . . . for having said v. . who so shall receive one such little one in my name , receiveth me . addes immediately v. . but who so shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me &c. where scandalizing vers . . is opposed to receiving , that is entertaining with kindnesse , and therefore imports injuring or persecuting . and indeed scandalizing is an effect of persecution , even such scandalizing as causeth apopostasie . our saviour saies of the stony ground which resembles such hearers as have no roote in themselves , when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word , by and by they are offended , mat. . . and that when many shall be delivered up to be afflicted , many shall be offended . mat. . . wherefore we conclude , that misery or woe belongs to those that scandalize others , by afflicting , injuring , or persecuting them . which woe belongs to all that shall cause enmities , griefes , and other harmings of mens minds , by terrifiing them with threats , by wronging them in spoiling their goods , by giving them blowes , or other wayes , whoever the persons thus harmed be . for such workes being the works of unrighteousnesse shall have their due vengeance . vnto them that are contentious , that obey unrighteousnesse shall bee indignation and wrath , tribulation & anguish upon the soule of every man that doth evill . ro. . . . but yet in a higher degree the woe belongs to them that offend beleivers in christ , who are the chiefe object of persecution , which are chiefly meant in this place . of whom the apostle saies , . thess. . . it is a righteous thing with god to recompense tribulation to them that trouble such . to cleare this truth i shall distinctly ▪ answer these questions . . wherein persecution is exercised , and how believers are persecuted , . how scandalized by persecution . . what woe belongs to such as thus scandalize them . for an answer to the first of these questions ; persecution in greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth most properly signify an eager swist motion , as in running a race , or in the chasing of an enemy flying , with an hostile mind : by translation it signifies any eager pursuit , or seeking after a thing which wee would obtaine , as when we are commanded heb. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , follow after peace , & the apostle phil. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i pursue if i may comprehend or attaine to , hee meanes the knowlgdge and grace of christ. but in the ecclesiasticall use of this word it is appropriated to those afflictions which unbeleiving and ungodly men doe set themselves to inflict on the godly and believers . in this sense it is used mark. . . where our saviour sayes that the losse of things left for him shall bee recompenced with an hundred fold in this time , yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not without persecutions , that is afflictions and hard usages from evill men . and s. paul . tim. . . they that live godly in christ iesus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shall be persecuted , that is , be ill handled by the ungodly which thing they doe many wayes . sometimes by seeking after their lives ; so that nothing will satisfy them but the shedding of their blood , as if nothing else could quench their thirst , but a draught of a godly christians blood . yet not all in the like cruell manner : to some it 's enough that they can destroy them : to others it 's not sufficient unlesse they can cause them sensim mori , to dye a lingring death by torture , so as to be long a dying , or that if it be shorter for the time , it may be with the extreamest paine , or with the extreamest ignominy . nor are the impulsive causes the same in all : it 's in all hatred of the godly , but not for the same reason : and therefore the bitternesse of this hatred is in some greater and more lasting : in others lesse , and sooner removed : s. paul persecuted the church of god : but he did it out of ignorance and unbeliefe , and therefore was the more capeable of repentance and mercy , . tim. . . iezabel persecuted the prophet elijah out of zeale for her idolatry , . kings . . herodias , because iohn baptist had preached against her companying with herod , mark. . herod persecuted iames and peter that hee might please the people . acts . in all there 's malice , but upon different reasons . and for the kind of death which they inflict on them , it is different according to the divers degrees of their malice , wit and power , some they stone , others they saw in two , others they slay with the sword . heb. . . some they hang on a crosse , some they cast to wild beasts , some they drowne in the sea , some they boyle in oyle to death , some they broyle on a greediron , some they burne at a stake , some they make away in secret , as the histories of the church doe abundantly testify . sometimes persecution reacheth not to the taking away the life , but to bonds and imprisonment , as it befell paul and silas acts . to banishment , losse of goods , as it befell the saints , heb. . . to excommunications , and casting out of the synagogue , as our saviour foretold , ioh. . . to threatnings and hard speeches , iude . to slanders , and false accusations , mat. . . to scoffes , insulting sarcasmes , which are called cruell mockings , heb. . . and with which it is said ismael persecuted isaak . gal. . . in a word all those wayes of inflicting evill , whereby the malignant spirits of wicked men doe harme the godly in their bodies , outward estates , & name , are acts of persecution . such kind of evills sometimes happen to the godly by voluntary vndertakings , as death , and danger , and wants by reason of travaile to promote the gospell , or the like cause : but then they are acts of persecution when they are by others inflicted on them to doe them mischiefe . it falls out sometimes that believers and godly persons doe molest and practise one against another , by reason of private discord , and grudges from corruption prevayling although they agree in the worship of the same lord. sometimes such kinde of practises are betweene unbeleivers themselves , who seekes one anothers lives , vexe , spoyle , expell one another , by reason of private enmities : sometimes they doe the like to beleevers upon private quarrells arising from ambition , covetousnesse or the like cause . by all which there may harming and scandalizing come ; but it is then in the usuall ecclesiasticall acception of the word , persecution , when ungodly men inflict those evills on godly and beleiving persons , quâ tales , as they are such , for their piety or faiths sake , for righteousnesse sake . mat. . . . pet. . . for christs sake and the gospells , mark. . . more distinctly when men inflict evill on others for their profession of christ , and his gospell , for not serving idols , as when the emperour did put to death christians for refusing to offer incense to their heathen gods. and nebuchadnezzar cast into a fiery fornace , three iewes for not bowing downe to his golden image , or when they bring evill on them for doing their duty , the reproving of sin , delivering gods message , as when ahab and iesabel made elijah to fly , micajah to lye in prison , herod cast iohn baptist in prison for declaring their sins to them , and foretelling ther judgment , when the princes of darius procured daniel to bee cast into a den of lions for praying to god three times aday , when the iewes drave the apostles from one citty to another for preaching the gospell , then it is persecution ; and thus even at this day those that have power doe persecute christians in some places by cruell torments , in some by expulsion from their dwellings , spoyling their goods , in some by tauntes , mockes , threates , disgracings , slanders &c. for their embracing the word of life , rejection of idolatry , publishing of the truth , non-conformity to the vices of the world . for it is the lot of gods people which our saviour requires us to remember , iohn . . the servant is no greater then the lord , if they have persecuted me , they will also persecute you . now these persecutions doe scandalize , as our saviour tells us mat. . . and the reason of their scandalizing may be gathered from our saviours words , who tells us that the good hearers persevere , because they bring forth fruit with patience . wherefore on the contrary the scandall of the temporary beleivers is for want of patience : defect of patience to beare the assaults of persecution is that which causeth the persecuted beleiver or hearer of gods word to be scandalized . for the heart of man is swayed by paines and delights . arist. lib : . ethic : ad nicom : makes voluptatem & dolorem , pleasure and griefe , the generall objects , or matter about which vertues , and vices are conversant . the reason of which is because in all morall things pleasure and griefe doe move and sway men to or from a thing . hereupon it is that when men have not roote of faith , and strength of patience , their resolutions are altered , their courses changed , their minds broken by suffering hard things : so that rather then undergoe them , they will yeild to that sin which is their ruine . the spirits of strong men are apt to be broken with calamities , even as a strong oake by a mighty wind , yea the feare of things grievous doth oft prevaile ●o scandalize men . s. peter who was a man of great resolutions , was dashed by the charge of a weake mayd , when it tended to bring him into danger , and all the disciples were offended because of christ , as soone as he was apprehended , mat. . . as for the woe that belongs to such scandalizing , it is the same which is awarded unto other sorts of scandalizing ; if not greater : forasmuch as this kind of scandalizing hath more of malice in it then the rest . for all persecutors are moved by bitter malice towards the godly to injure and molest them . 't is true , sometimes their malice is pure malice , sometimes mixt : but alwayes malice . the pharisees who persecuted our lord christ out of pure malice , they said , hee had an uncleane spirit : mark. . . they called him a samaritane , a wine-bibber , a friend of publicans and sinners . they sought to intangle him , to destroy him though his miracles convinced them , that he was a teacher sent from god , and that god was with him , iohn . . but others persecuted out of malice compounded with ignorance . luk. . . saith our saviour , father forgive them , for they know not what they doe ; compounded with blind zeale ; the time cometh saith our saviour iohn . . that who soever killeth you will thinke that hee doth god service . s. paul sayes that out of zeale hee persecuted the church , philip. . . this malice is lesse then pure malice , and the woe due to this scandalizing by persecution , lesse then to the former ; . persecution out of blind malice is the more pardonable , and the lesse punishable , then that which is done out of pure malice , which may perhaps be utterly unpardonable , when it is the sinne against the holy ghost . whereas s. paul alleadgeth for himselfe , that though he were a persecutor , and a blaspheamer , yet hee obtained mercy , because hee did it ignorantly in unbeleife , . tim. . . neverthelesse all persecution of the godly , all scandalizing by evill handling of men , without repentance , hath eternall death for its wages . it is a righteous thing with god to recompence tribulation to them that trouble you , saith s. paul. . thes. . . & what is the tribulation ? he tells them v. . they shall be punished with everlasting destruction frō the presence of the lord , and from the glory of his power . and though god suffer such enemies of his church to prevaile for a time , yet few of them in the end escape his hand , but by some exemplary death , or other grievous judgment they beare the punishment of their iniquity . neither pharaoh , nor saul , nor herod , nor nero , nor domitian , nor any of the chaldaean , syrian , roman persecutors have escaped without deserved vengeance . as it is just with god to recomdence tribulation to them that trouble his people . so he doth undoubtedly inflict it seriùs aut citiùs , sooner or latter , unles his revēging hand be held up by the repentance of the persecutor . for application of this truth , first wee may hereby discerne the danger of those that this way scandalize others . the impetuous malice of persecutors carries them violently with rage against beleivers , so that they neither perceive their sin , nor the woe due to it . even like a horse that runs furiously and violently , observes not into what precipices , pits , down-falls it casts it selfe ; so a persecutor that is driven by malice and blind zeale to breath out threatnings and slaughter against the disciples of christ , and to spoyle the church runs ( as we use to so say ) without feare or wit , neither considering whom he persecutes , nor how hard a thing it is for him to kick against the pricks : they see not what a tempest hangs over their heads , what a pit they are falling into . for even then when they study cruelty , devise mischiefe on their beds , while they act it with their tongue cutting like a sharp rasour , weigh the violence of their hands in the earth , use their strength , authority , power , as men that know not the way of peace , but destruction & unhappines are in their wayes , while they hire souldiers , arme executioners , invent torments for the saints , even thē & all that while god is whetting his sword and bending his bow and making it ready , hee is preparing for him the instruments of death ; he ordaineth his arrowes against the persecutors , that their mischiefe may returne upon their owne head , and their violent dealing may come downe upon their pate . ps. . . , . god is diging up a pit for the wicked , psal. . . and as sure as pharoah , saul , iezabel , herod , nero , domitian , and the rest of persecutors have suffered divine vengeance : so surely shall all cruell inquisitors , barbarous turks , unjust oppressours , ungodly scoffers , divellish belyers of gods people perish . it is determined in heaven : upon the wicked hee shall raine snares , fire and brimstone , and an horrible tempest : this shall bee the portion of their cup. for the lord tryeth the righteous : but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soule hateth , psal. . , . . this may justly deterre men from this way of scandalizing by persecution . a way of scandalizing it is that satan , who vseth all practises to stumble men , vi & dolo , by force and craft , hath set on foote in all times , in all churches . where princes are infidels or heretiques he seeks to raise them vp to waste the church to vexe the godly . where they have professed , and countenanced the gospell , and godlynes , there hee sets on worke some or other as secret vnderminers of their peace , such as may reach at them with their tongues , if they cannot with their hands . and it is so still : as in some places there are persecuting souldiers , and persecuting iudges , so there are in other places persecuting scoffers , persecuting accusers , whose busines is to discourage beleevers , to affright the godly . not only infidell princes , and hereticall prelates , but also the whole rabble of vitious men , riotous livers , sons of belial will bee out of their malignity practising against the saints that are opposite to their wayes . and the divell knowes this to be a prevailing way by reason of the love men have to their lives , goods , ease , and quietnesse . but for such as thus doe scandalize , it behoves them take notice of the woe following , to remember what our saviour said to saul , act. . , . it is hard for thee to kicke against the pricks . if they be able to fight with god , let them goe on : if not , let them remember iulians end betimes , that they may not be forced to confesse as he did , vicisti galilaee ; christ hath overcome them , though to their perdition . . lastly for those that are apt to be scandalized by persecutions it concernes them to get roote in themselves , strength of faith , stability of patience to stand in the time of triall , that they be not overthrowne in their goings by violent scandalls . the fiery triall must not be , as if some strange thing had happened to us ; but as men prepared for such a combate , we are wisely to foresee the assaults of such temptations , that we be not surprised by them , and to fortifie our selves with faith and courage , that we be not forced by them . we must watch , stand fast , quit our selves like men , be strong . . cor. . . remembring that the favour of god , the peace of our consciences , & salvation of our soules , depends upon our victory : that the fearfull shall be without : to him that overcometh shall be given to eate of the tree of life , which is in the middest of of the paradise of god. we must breake through terrours ; looke beyond death ; and by faith overcomming the world , and the prince of it , as christ and the saints have done , enter into glory . chap. . of the aggravation of the woe belonging to scandalizers . having finished the two first propositions contained in the first verse , there remaines only the third and last proposition containing an aggravation of the woe due to scandalizers by comparing it with a lesser though very grievous affliction , it were better for him &c. for the reading & meaning of which , much needs not be said , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( in english it is profitable , to which answers in s. mat. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is behovefull ) is translated by our translators according to the phrase in saint marke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is better for him . now in the aggravation it selfe wee are to consider the persons whose offence is spoken of , and the grievous punishment with which the woe due to such offenders is compared . the persons of whose offence our saviour speaks are these little ones . now by little ones are not meant little ones in age : for although our lord christ tooke occasion from the presence of little infants to use this phrase ; yet chiefly by the addition of saint matthew which adds 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that beleive in me , by the condition of these little ones , that they are converted and become humble as little children ; and because not litle children in age , but litle ones in disposition are apt to be scandalized in that manner our saviour here speaks of , it is plaine that our saviour meanes by ( these little ones ) believers in him , who are called little ones , not from their age , or quantity of body , but from their disposition or condition , because they are little in their owne eyes , or in the esteeme of the world , or because some of them that beleeve on him are lesse then others : the greivous punishmēt with which the woe due to such offenders is compared , is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 t , o be drowned in the deep of the sea , as it is in s. matthew ; in s. marke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , throwne into the sea , in s. luke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , cast into the sea , & that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that an asse-milstone be hanged about his necke , in s. mark. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a milstone be put about his necke , in s. luk. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that an asse-milstone bee about his necke . criticks busy themselves about this asse-milstone , what it was , and why so called ; some conceive it to be the lower milstone , because that is the greater , and our saviour would expresse the weight of the fall by the greatnesse of the stone : therefore they say the lower milstone was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or the asse , either because in manner of an asse it bare the burden , or from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to move , or bring about , because the upper milstone is turned about it , as iansenius conceives . but suidas in his greek lexicon in voce 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saies the upper milstone was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or the asse , and this is more likely , and that the reason why it was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was because it was turned about with an asse , and thereby distinguished from mola trusatilis , that milstone that was wont to be turned about with the strength of mens armes : which is the opinion generally of interpreters , ambrose , hilary , erasmus , iansenius , maldonate &c. however wee conceive of this milstone , the intent of our saviour was to shew by this addition the certainty of his perishing , the weight of his fall , and the irrecoverablenesse of it ; for a man that is cast into the sea , and hath a milstone hanged about his necke , is sure to perish , there being no possibility for him to use his armes or body to stay himselfe from sinking , and he hath a most heavy downfall , the weight of the milstone carrying him most violently into the bottome of the deepe , and his fall is irrecoverable , no man being able to prevent his fall , or to recover him thence . for this reason in the revelation of saint iohn ch . . . where the irrecoverable destruction of babylon is signified , the resemblance is the same with that in my text , and a mighty angel tooke up a stone like a great milstone , and cast it into the sea , saying , thus with violence shall that great citty babylon be throwne downe : and shall be found no more at all . hierome in his comment : on math : . . saies this manner of casting men into the sea was secundùm ritum provinciae quo majorum criminum ista apud veteres iudaeos paena fuerit , ut in profundum ligato saxo demergerentur : according to the manner of that province , in which that was among the ancient iewes the punishment of greater crimes , that they should be drowned in the deepe with a stone bound about their neckes . but this punishment we finde no mention of in the old testament , though of stoning often . what other writers relate i cannot speake , nor upon what evidence s. hierome found this to be the manner of the ancient iewes to punish great crimes by drowning the malefactors in the deepe of the sea , with a milstone hanged about their necke . casaubon in his notes on matthew . . proves by a passage or two which he cites out of diodorus siculus , and athenaeus , that the greekes used 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 drowning in the sea , as a punishment among them , but he finds not that it was by tying a stone to their necke , but rather by putting the malefactor into leade . and it may seeme by a passage which he cites out of polybius , that it was rather reckoned among the easier , then more grievous sorts of punishment . maldonate conceives it might bee that our saviour in using this resemblance did allude unto the pride which hee here censures , as he did math : . . when hee said ; and thou capernaum which art exalted to heaven , shalt be brought down to hell . what ever the allusion be , saint hierome rightly notes , that our saviour meant hereby to let us understand that it were better for scandalizers to receive a short punishment here , then eternall torments . or that though to be cast into the sea with a milstone about the necke , be a certaine , grievous , irrecoverable destruction , yet the woe of scandalizers is more certaine , more grievous , more irrecoverable . and it is considerable that the emphasis of our saviours words in averring this , seemes to intimate that he spake this with some vehemency , as if he had said to this purpose : though it bee that those that beleive in me are litle ones in their owne and others eyes ; yet i tell you it will be more tolerable for a man to bee thus dolefully cast into the sea , then for him to incurre the punishment of offending these litle ones , as little as they be , yea though hee offend but one of these little ones . now from this speech of our saviour , wee may observe that those that beleive in christ , are litle ones ; which is true , whether we compare them among themselves , or with others ; for magnum & parvum are relatives , as aristotle observes in his categories in the chapter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . now compared among themselves , they are some lesse then others . our saviour math : , . by saying , in as much as yee have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren , yee have done it unto mee : intimates that some of his brethren are lesse then others : and indeed so it is . in respect of spirituall gifts and graces some are lesse then others . our saviour in his charge to peter concerning his pastorall office distinguisheth betweene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his little lambes , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his sheepe , ioh. . , . and requires peter to doe as it was foretold of himselfe , isay . . that he should feed his flocke like a shepheard , that hee should gather the lambes with his armes , and carry them in his bosome and should gently leade those that are with young . the apostle distinguisheth between the strong in faith and the weak in faith , rom. . . and . . thus it hath beene , and it is still . some are christians , come to maturity , others are in the blossome and bud : some are novices , catechumeni , yongling in christ ; some are confirmed christians & strong men in christ. which thing happens , first because of the sutablenesse of it to the condition of a body : for as it is in the naturall body , all members are not of equall growth , so it is in the mysticall body of christ , it is fitly joyned together and compacted by that which every joynt supplieth according to the effectuall working in the measure of each part . ephes. . . there is a different measure of each part , that there may be a meete symmetry in the whole . secōdly besides all members have not the same office : and therefore gods spirit gives not to all a like measure of knowledge and other gifts , rom. . , . thirdly , againe all parts have not a like meanes for growth , not a like instruction and nurture , not a like time for growth : there is a different working in the severall parts , and accordingly a different growth , ephes. . . fourthly , if all christians were of equall strength , faith , wisdome , and other graces , there would be a subtraction of the matter of sundry principall duties ; there would be no need one christian should edifie one another , beare with one another , avoyd the offence of another , give helpe to another , restore one another , &c. wheras god hath so tempered the parts of the mysticall body as well as the naturall , that the members should have the same care one of another , . cor. . . . in power , dignity , authority , wealth &c. both in the church , and in the world , some believers in christ exceed others . among many meane christians , some are noble in birth and dignity : among many christian subjects there are some soveraigne kings and princes that are christians : among many illiterate believers there are some learned believers . in which thing god hath admirably ordered that as there should be some nobles , some princes , some learned among his people , that they may help & defend his church : so there are not many nobles , not many mighty , not many wise after the flesh , that the support and raising of his church may appeare not to be by an arme of flesh , not by might , but by his spirit , that no flesh should glory in his presence . . cor. . , . if wee compare them with others they are but little , i meane in dignity , secular honour , power , strength among men . except a david or a constantine , and some other christian kings , how few of gods people have injoyed any eminent degree of worldy glory ? the triumphant cōquerors , the mighty monarchs of the world have been most of them infidels . the almighty ( that intends a better inheritance for his saints even a kingdome that cannot be shaken , heb. . . ) bestowes not on them the great monarchies , dominions , and dignities of this world , which are meaner gifts . and accordingly the world makes small account of beleivers , as if they were but contemptible persons : for the men of this world have eyes of flesh , and fleshly minds : they magnify and admire the world and the pompe thereof , sumptuous palaces , gorgeous attire , great command , great observance and attendance : but the worth of spirituall excellencies , the glorious priviledges and endowments of gods sons they know not : even as christ was unknowne in the world , so are his members , . iohn . , . lastly those that believe in christ are little in their owne eyes , that is humble , which ( it's likely ) was chiefly here meant by our saviour . for to this christ specially applyes the embleme of a little child , math. . . and in this sense saul is said to have been little in his own eyes , . sam. . . thus certainly are all the saints : david was as great in the eye of others as any man in the world in his age : yet he was not so great in the eyes of others , but he was as small in his owne . who am i ( saith he to god ) . sam. . . and what is my house , that thou hast brought me hitherto ? and psal. . . &c. lord my heart is not haughty , nor mine eyes lofty : neither doe i exercise my selfe in great matters , or in things too high for me . surely i have behaved and quieted my selfe as a child that is weaned of his mother : my soule is even as a weaned child . the reasons hereof are . because by faith they behold gods infinite greatnesse , and then comparing themselves with him , they cannot but thinke themselves as nothing . abraham was a great man in his time : he had great wealth , and was so potent that by the forces of his owne houshold hee overthrew foure conquering kings : yet when he comes to speake with god , hee doth in most humble manner acknowledge his owne meane condition : behold now , i have taken upon mee to speake unto the lord , who am but dust and ashes , gen. . . when a man surveyes the earth by it self , it is a great and vast body ▪ but when it is compared with the heavens , it is instar puncti , but as a small point that hath no quantity . so for those men that looke on themselves , or compare themselves with other men , or inferiour creatures , they are apt to imagine themselves to bee some great ones , as simon magus vaunted himselfe , acts , . . but those that acquaint themselves with god , walke and converse with him , they find such an infinite disproportion betweene god and themselves , that they conceive themselves as nothing , even lighter then vanity it selfe . . as by faith they behold gods infinite greatnesse , and thereby find themselves as nothing : so by faith they behold gods infinite power , riches and soveraignty , and thereby see that they have nothing , that the things they have are not their owne but gods : that they have them from him , not by any merit of their owne , but ex dono , of free gift : nebuchadnezzar he swels when hee lookes on his greatnesse as his owne , is not this great babylon that i have built for the house of the kingdome , by the might of my power , and for the honour of my majesty ? dan. . . but holy david is in another tune , thine o lord is the greatnesse , and the power , and the glory , and the victory , and the majesty : for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine : thine is the kingdome ( o lord ) and thou art exalted as head above all . both riches and honour come of thee , and thou reignest over all , and in thine hand is power and might , and in thine hand it is to make great , and to give strength unto all . but who am i , and what is my people &c. . chron : . , , . and godly iacob , gen : . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i am little ( the phrase of my text ) in respect of all the mercies , & all the truth which thou hast done to thy servant . all was mercy and all the truth of god which he had , and therefore he was but little : the apprehension of this that all was to bee ascribed to gods truth and mercy , caused him to see nothing hee had that might puffe him up , though hee had much to be thankfull for : he doth not say , this is my house , my land , my dignity , my wit , &c. but these are the lands , the children &c. which god hath given , that hee hath lent me . he doth not take himselfe to bee a proprietary , but a borrower , not a gayner of them , but a receiver . and therefore as a borrower thinks not himselfe rich because hee hath much substance in his hands of other mens , so neither doe beleivers thinke themselves to bee great , because that which they have , they know it is but borrowed . for application of this truth , . we may hereby bee advertised what is the estate of beleivers in this life : some are lesse then others , and all little in this world : so accounted by others , and by themselves . the present condition in which they are is not the estate of men come to ripe yeares , but of children in their minority : of whom the apostle sayes , gal. . . that though they be heyres , yet as long as they are children they differ nothing from a servant , though they be lords of all : it is so with the saints in this life , all things are theirs , they are christs , & christ is gods , . cor. . , . yet they have command of nothing : nor perhaps the use of so much as wicked men . as it is with the heire of all his fathers goods , while he is young , he is set to schoole , there corrected , fares harder and hath lesse money in his purse , lesse to mannage then many of his fathers servants : and yet all is his , and for him ; so it is with gods children , they are held hard to it , they have little in hand , they are low in the eyes of men , and in their owne , and yet this is no impediment to their future glory : it 's a preparative to their receiving their inheritance . the men of this world doe grossely mistake the case of gods people : they imagine god neglects thē , because they are not in high places , and great power on earth : but this is their folly , while they measure gods love , and care of his people by their owne affections , not by gods judgement , they imagine those unhappy who are most blessed , and themselves happy who are most accursed . . christs little ones should bee wiser , they should know that their present condition is to be little , and accordingly to bee contented with small things , not mind great things in this world , as if they could not be happy without them ; it was the end wherefore our saviour used the embleme of a little child , mat. . . ( to which the phrase of little ones in my text alludeth ) that he might admonish his disciples not to strive for dignities , and precedencies , in this world . and s. paul rom. . . changeth christians not to mind high things , but to condescend to men of low estate . excellent was the advice of ieremiah to baruch , jerem. . . seekest thou great things for thy selfe ? seek them not . wee must remember for the present our condition is to have our allowance , and to bee stinted by god : and therefore ought to bee contented with it , though it seeme little , sith wee know god is our father , and though now wee bee little , yet hereafter hee will make us great , though now we be humbled , yet hereafter wee shall bee exalted : though wee bee now poore in this world , yet wee are rich in god : and heyres of all things . . answerably hereto it concernes them to quicken their hope , and to excite their endeavours after those great things which god hath prepared for them : the lesse beleivers in christ are now , the more should they long for , and pant after their greatnesse in heaven . by this they must comfort and support their soules in their present condition : if they looke for great things on earth , they shall bee sure to misse them , if they look for great things hereafter they shall bee sure to have them . heaven is their countrey , there is their preferment . on it they must fixe their hopes , by it they must sustaine their soules . lastly this consideration that scandalizing of them that beleive in christ is the offending of little ones aggravateth much the sinne of scandalizers . to trample little ones under foot , to injure , and harme little children , argues much pride and much unmercifullnesse . smallnesse should be the object of mercy , not of insolency . and therefore in this respect the sinne of persecutors is great who scandalize christs little ones , and accordingly their woe is great , which is the principall point of this verse , and is now to be handled . the second observation and that which is the maine point in these words , is this : that the punishment due to them that scandalize believers in christ is greater then any temporall death though never so greivous . this assertion needs no other confirmation then the words of the text rightly understood according to the explication before made . to which neverthelesse may bee added this argument : the punishment due to scandalizers of believers in christ is eternall punishment in hell . for that such is due to this sinne , hath been proved before in declaring the woe due to scandalizing in generall , and to each particular branch thereof . but it is certaine that no temporall death is or can be so grievous as eternall punishment in hell ; none so sharpe , and tormenting ; none so constant and lasting : the bitterest paines of the most lingring temporall death , being sufferable , and finite , the other being intolerable , eternall , and so in a sort infinite ; now finiti ad infinitū nulla proportio , there 's no proportion between a thing finite , and a thing infinite . therefore no temporall death can be equall to the punishment of scandalizers of beleivers in christ. but that i may distinctly handle the conclusion , it will be needfull to consider , . who are to bee accounted beleivers in christ. . why to the scandalizing of them there is so great vengeance allotted . to believe in christ is to acknowledge in heart that he is the messias that was to come into the world , to assent to the doctrine of the gospell which hee published , and to trust in him for remission of sinnes and salvation : from hence men are denominated beleivers in christ. so that they are indeed beleivers in christ , who doe acknowledge in heart that he is the christ , the son , the living god , that assent to his doctrine , and trust in him for righteousnes & salvation . my purpose is not to take occasion to cōsider exactly the nature and sorts of faith in christ , nor the signes whereby that which is true and genuine is distinguished from counterfeit , imperfect , or defective . for at this time we are onely to consider whom another man is to take for a beleiver in christ , whom hee ought to take heed of scandalizing . onely thus much may be fit to be considered , that beleivers in christ may bee so called either according to gods estimation , as they are in his sight ; and in this acception they onely are beleivers in christ , who have the most excellent grace of faith planted in their hearts , by gods spirit , by which they are united to christ , dwell in him , live by and to him : which all that acknowledge the truth of the gospell in their profession of it , or that yeild to it in mind a light and uneffectuall credulity to it , doe not . but these are only knowne by god , who alone searcheth the heart and reines . or else beleivers in christ are called such according to that estimation man may make : and thus wee are to account all those as beleivers in christ , who knowing what they professe doe without compulsion professe themselves beleivers in christ , and doe not openly renounce either by speech or practice the truth of christian faith , though they have much weakenesse of knowledge , many errours in opinion , and many sinnes in their practice . in generall the number of those who professe freely their assent to the articles of the creed , that joyne in the worship of christ , and professe subjection to his precepts are to bee accounted by men as beleivers in christ , the scandalizing of whom is so woefull . the reasons why so great a degree of punishment belongs to such as scandalize beleivers in christ , are . because christ doth love them dearely , and they are of neare relation to him . the love of christ to them is abundantly manifest in that superlative expression of it , his dying for them : hee loved us , saith the apostle , eph. . . and hath given himselfe for us an offering and a sacrifice to god for a sweet smelling savour . and in like sort are they most tenderly beloved of his father , who so loved them , that he gave his only begotten sonne , that whosoever beleiveth on him , should not perish , but have everlasting life , iohn . . and for their relation there is no relation of dearenesse by which their indearednesse to god the father , and the lord jesus christ is not expressed . they are his little flock , luke . . and a good sheepheard is tender over his flocke : they are his servants , iohn . . and of these , good masters are carefull : they are his friends , iohn . . and true friends are very mindefull of their friends : they are his peculiar people , tit. . . . pet. . . and a good prince is very tender of his peoples safety : they are his brethren , heb. . . and true-hearted brethren are very regardfull of their brethrens good : they are his children , v. . the sonnes of god , . iohn . . heires of god , joynt heires with christ , rom. . . and strong is the affection of a father to his child , his sonne , his heire : they are the spouse of christ , eph. . . . and what is a man more zealously affected to , then to his beloved spouse ? they are his members , v. . and what is it that a man will not give or doe to save his members ? whence it is that he that sheweth kindnesse to them doth it to christ , math. . . the neglecting of shewing mercy to them is a deniall of it to christ , v. . and an offence to them a sinnne againg christ , . cor. . . their sufferings christs sufferings , coloss. . . this was the reason why christ when he spake to saul from heaven , going about the persecuting of beleivers at damascus , said thus to him , saul , saul why persecutest thou me , acts . , . saul thought that hee had bent himselfe onely against a company of peevish refractary people , whom hee thought worthy of all punishment for their obstinate adhering to their profession , by him conceived impious superstition , and heresy : but it was indeed christ himselfe who was persecuted , and strucke at in their persecutions . and so it is in all the persecutions of beleivers for their faith and obedience . now then christ must needs be provoked greatly by the scandalizing of them whom hee loves so dearely , accounts so neare to him : doubtlesse what was said of the iewes , zech. . . hee that toucheth you , toucheth the apple of his eye , is truely verified of all true beleivers , hee that toucheth them toucheth the apple ( if i may so speake ) of gods eye , which he will not let passe unrevenged . . the sinne of scandalizing beleivers in christ as it is against those whom christ loves , and are neare and deare to him , so it tends directly to the overthrow of christs kingdome . for to what end are they persecuted for the faith and service of christ , to what end are they tempted to sinne , harmed in their consciences , but that they may be alienated from christ , withdrawen from subjection to him , hindred in his service ? sauls persecuting of david is construed as if hee had bid him goe serve other gods , they have driven me , saith david , out this day from abiding in the inheritance of the lord , saying goe serve other gods. . sam. . . nor can it be otherwise interpreted but that they which scandalize little ones that beleive in christ for their faith and obedience sake , doe as good as say , beleive not , obey not christ. now all such cannot but fall heavily under the wrath of god , and of christ iesus the universall iudge . what he said , luk. . . will be verified of them : as for those mine enemies that would not that i should raigne over them , bring them hither , and slay them before me . for loe thine enemies o lord , loe thine enemies shall perish , and all the workers of iniquity shall bee scattered . psal. . . . as it tends to the overthrow of christs kingdome , so especially in the last sorts of scandalizing it ariseth out of hatred of christ , his people , kingdome , and gospell ; which shewes a most wicked heart , and causeth intollerable provocation to anger . . in the practise of this sinne , especially by persecution , what are scandalizers but as satans hands to execute what hee instigates them to ? our saviour in his epistle to the church of smyrna , revel . . . tells that church that the divell should cast some of them into prison that they might bee tryed , and they should have tribulation ten dayes . are wee to thinke that the divell did in his owne person lay hands on any of the beleivers of that church , and by might hale them to prison , as saul intended to doe at damascus ? nay , wee find no record for any such thing , nor is it agreeable to the course of gods providence whereby hee rules the world . but rather we are to thinke that the divell is said to cast them into prison , because he excited the infidell rulers of those times to doe it , who therein tooke on them the person of the divell as iudas did , when he betrayed christ , and peter ( though in another manner ) when hee disswaded christ from his willingnesse to suffer . now that which is promoted by satan , who is the father of all evill , and the grand enemy of christ cannot but bee most odious to him , and procure his wrath , specially when men suffer themselves to be made satans professed agents and servants to doe his will. for application of this truth . . wee may hereby perceive the tender care which christ hath over his people . he takes their scandals as if he himselfe were scandalized , their injuries as his owne injuries , the persecuting of them as the persecuting of himselfe , which hee will not suffer to escape unpunished . pretious in the sight of the lord is the death of the saints , saith the psalmist , psal. . . their lives are pretious , and their death is pretious . i may adde , even their reproaches , their injuries , their false accusations , their scandalls are pretious , not sold for nought , nor valued as no losse . albeit sometimes it may seeme so , yet it is not in truth so as the psalmist complaines , psal. . . thou sellest thy people for nought , and dost not increase by their price . nay rather their haires are numbred , luke . . hee that valewes sparrowes , doth not account his childrē as nought worth : doubtlesse the meanest of his saints hath his teares bottled ; and his flittings numbred , and all his injuries booked . psal. . . and that to some end , even that they may be recompensed in them , revenged on their adversaries . a great cordiall this should be to christs little ones , to persist in the faith notwithstanding their scandalls , sith this light affliction , which is but for a moment , worketh for them a farre more exceeding , & eternall weight of glory : . cor. . . and as it hath been some content to some spirits dying , that they knew their death should not be unrevenged ; so it may bee a comfort to beleivers , that their persecutions shall be required , hee will doe right to them , justice on their enemies . . it should further direct us when wee are scandalized to commit our cause to god , to our lord christ. thus did zechariah when they stoned him with stones , hee said , the lord looke upon it , and require it . . chr : . . and thus did our lord christ . pet. . . when he suffered he threatned not , but committed himselfe to him that judgeth righteously . so should we : else wee intrence on gods prerogative , who hath said , vengeance is mine and i will repay . rom ▪ . . wee disadvantage our selves by hindering the recompence of our patience , wee marre our cause by making it evill , which otherwise would be good , wee harme our selves by moving god to anger for our miscarriage . it s our wisdome to forbeare avenging our selvs , else we shall shew that we remember not christs love to us , nor trust his care over us . . from hence scandalizers may take the right measure of their sinne : and the greatnesse of their punishment . they thinke commonly when they persecute beleivers , godly preachers , faithfull christians , they doe but speake against , and vexe , and oppose a company of peevish , precise , silly weak folke . thus did paul imagine when he persecuted the church of god. but christ told him otherwise , i am iesus whom thou persecutest . acts. . . and so doe all that are moved by the same spirit , and walke the same way . for wherefore are beleivers hated ? is it not for their constancy in the faith , their profession of the truth , their zeale to christs kingdome , their obedience to his precepts ? the scandalizing of them then can bee no other but an offence of christ. there may bee some that may thinke they love christ , and yet scandalize his little ones . but this cannot bee : the love of christ and of the brethren goe together , as s. iohn strongly proves , in his first epistle . know then , that scandalizing of christs members is no lesse then the offending of christ , and will be punished , as if his person were directly struck at . behold the lord commeth with ten thousands of his saints to execute iudgement upon all , and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds , and of all their hard speeches , which ungodly sinners have spoken against him . iude . . lastly this may startle those that practise this course of scandalizing : those that beleive in christ are in appearance little ones , of small power , contemptible , and therefore they are ready to think they may harme them with impunity . but it were good for them to remember solomons caveat prov. . , . robbe not the poore because he is poore : neither oppresse the afflicted in the gate . for the lord will pleade their cause , and spoyle the soule of them that spoyled them . consider what a doome is here threatned to scandalizers of beleivers . bee assured that gods righteousnesse , his love to his people , his owne cause requires this severity at his hands . know that ther 's no escaping unlesse they could fight against god , and were stronger then hee . provoke not then a couragious lion , stirre not up the wrath of the omnipotent god. touch not his annointed , doe his prophets no harme . shew them all kindnesses on earth , that what they cannot , their saviour may recompense in heaven : that when yee faile they may receive you into everlasting habitations . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e § . eccl. . the speaker and occasion of the words . § the partition of the text . § . the explication of the word scandall in the proper acception . lexic . in voce 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . § scandall in the scripture use . ps. . . rom. . §. of the sorts of effective scandall . §. . the necessity of scādals . §. . in respect of scandalizers . § . of persons scandalized . §. . of satan . § . of god. ezek. . . § . for what ends ordered by him . enchir. ad laur c. . §. . the application ▪ . to iustifie religion notwithstanding the scandals of the professors of it . §. . to magnify the providence of god. § . to teach men to walk circumspectly . §. . . to waite for christs comming . §. . the explication of the words of the second proposition of the text. § . that a woe belongs to scandalizers . § . §. . who are scandalizers , and to what scandalizing woe belongs iames . qu. ans. lib. . de gubernat ▪ dei. § why a woe belongs to them . rom. . . §. . § . application . to manifest the danger ●f scandalizers . §. . to admonish them of their sin . § . directions to avoide it . § . scandalizing distributed into foure waies § . a woe belongs to them that scandalize by sinfull example . § . what actions of sinfull example doe scādalize . qu. ans. qu. ans. §. . how they doe scandalize . lib. . de guber . dei. §. . why a woe belongs to such . §. . application . to move them to mourne that scandalize by sinfull example . §. . . to move men to take heed of scandalizeing by sinfull example . §. . . and others that they be not scandalized by sinfull example . §. . directions to prevent it . §. . a woe belongs to scandalizers by abuse of liberty in things lawfull . §. . reasons thereof out of s. paules epistles . §. . the difficulty of this point , and quaeres propounded to cleare it . §. . answere of the first quaere what are things lawfull & indifferent , and what is our liberty in their use . §. . what waies our liberty in things indifferent may be restrained . § . the summary of the apostles resolutions about scandall in the use of things indifferent delivered . rom. . § . and . cor. . . . chapters . §. . que. . who are to avoyde scandalizing by abuse of liberty in things indifferent . §. . que. . scandalizing of whom by such abuse is to be avoyded . §. . que. . whether strong ones are obnoxious to such scandall . § . que. . who are to be accounted weake ones nec to be thus scandalized ? § . qu. . what evill consequent on our action makes scandalizing of this sort . §. . que. . how long we are to forbear our liberty for feare of scandall . §. . que. . what foresight of scandall consequent is necessary to make a man culpabie of scandalizing this way . §. . que. . whether the restraint of our liberty for feare of scandall be universall . §. . que. . whether scandall may be by omission of the use of our liberty . §. . que. . whether a community or a magistrate may be scandalized . § . que. . what we are to doe where there is danger of scandall one way and of disobedience to the magistrate another way . §. . que. . what we are to doe in case of scandall , either by using or not using our liberty ? §. . que. . what we are to doe , when the forbearing of our liberty endangers the losse of it . §. . que. . what are we to doe when there is danger of life by not using our liberty , of scandall by using it . §. . que. . what we are to doe when there is feare of scandall to some and hope and hope of good to others by use of our liberty . § . que. . how farre we are to regarde the scandal that ariseth from fancy without any probable reason ? §. . application . to manifest the uncharitablenes of scandalizers by abuse of their liberty . §. . . to disswade them from this sin , with directions against it . §. . . to admonish men of being scandalized by anothers use of his liberty , and directions to that end . §. . a woe belongs to scandalizers by enticing practises . §. . how men scandalize by enticing practises . §. . difference of scandalizers by enticing practises in respect of the part they act therein . §. . difference of scandalizers by enticing practises in respect of the motives which incite them . §. . difference of scandalizers by enticing practises according to the matter wherein they scandalize . §. . the reasons of the woe due to this scandalizing . §. . application ▪ to manifest the great guilt of scandalizers in this kind . §. . . to admonish men to take heed of scandalizing this way . §. . and those that are apt to be scandalized . a woe belongs to scandalizers by persecution . §. . how beleivers are persecuted . § . how persecutions doe scandalize . § . what woe belongs to scandalizers by persecution . § . application . . to discover the danger of such scandalizers . § . . to deterre them from it . § . . to advise them that are in danger of being scandalized by persecutions . § . the explication of the third proposition in the text . § . those that believe in christ are little ones . § . some lesse then others in spiritual gifts and graces . § . in power and dignity §. . beleivers commonly lesse then others in the world . § . little in their owne eyes . §. . application . to advertise us of the estate of beleievrs in this world . §. . . to teach beleivers contentednesse in a low condition . §. . . to quicken their hope after heaven . §. . . to aggravate the sin of scandalizing beleivers . §. . that the woe due to scandalizers of beleivers is greater then any temporall death . §. . who are to be accounted beleivers in christ. §. . why so great vengeance is awarded to scandalizers of beleivers in christ. §. . application . to manifest christs tender care over his people . § . . to teach us to commit our cause to him when we suffer for him . § . . to advertise scandalizers of the greatnesse of their sin , and punishment . § . . to deterre them from their sin . emmanuel, or, god-man a treatise wherein the doctrine of the first nicene and chalcedon councels, concerning the two natures in christ, is asserted against the lately vented socinian doctrine / by john tombes ... tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) emmanuel, or, god-man a treatise wherein the doctrine of the first nicene and chalcedon councels, concerning the two natures in christ, is asserted against the lately vented socinian doctrine / by john tombes ... tombes, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed for f. smith ..., london : . reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. table of contents: p. [ ]-[ ] errata: p. 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ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng jesus christ -- divinity. nicene creed. socinianism -- controversial literature. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - andrew kuster sampled and proofread - andrew kuster text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion emmanuel ; or , god-man . a treatise wherein the doctrine of the first nicene and chalcedon councels , concerning the two natures in christ , is asserted against the lately vented socinian doctrine . by john tombes , b. d. isa. . . for unto us a child is born , unto us a son is given , and the government shall be upon his shoulder : and his name shall be called wonderful , counsellour , the mighty god , the everlasting father , the prince of peace . london , printed for f. smith at the sign of the elephant and castle without temple-bar . . imprimatur , ex aed . lambethanis martii . . tho. tomkyns r. r in christo patri ac domino domino gilber ▪ to archi-ep . cant. a sacris domesticis . to the reader . whereas this treatise begins with mention of christs words , mat. ● . , . which carry a shew of impertinency , i think it fit to advertise thee that indeed this is but a s●red of a treatise concerning the kingdom of god , and licensed under the title of theocracy , and because of a writing against the divine nature of christ not long afore vented ( which i was not aware of when i composed it ) i yielded to the motion of publishing this by it self , it being suggested to me , that so printed it would be useful and seasonable , which having told th●e of , i crave thy prayers for him who is thine in the service of our lord christ. john tombes . the contents . sect. . the god whose kingdom is to be sought is the father of our lord jesus christ. sect. . jesus christ is the son of god in the sense professed in the nicene creed . sect. . christs being god in the sense of the nicene creed , is proved from john . , , , , , . , , , . sect. . the exceptions against the proof of christs god-head , from john . , &c. are set down . sect. . the sense of john . , , , , , , , , , . given by the adversaries , is reselled . sect. . the reasons of the adversaries exposition of john . , &c. are shewed to be insufficient . sect. . christs generation before the world was is proved , from john . . sect. . christs being before the world was , is proved from john . . sect. . col. . , , , , , . is urged to prove the god-head of christ. sect. . the proof of christs god-head , from col. . , , , , , . is vindicated from exceptions . sect. . heb. . , , , , , , , , , , . are urged to prove the assertion of christs god-head . sect. . the argument from heb. . , , , , , , , , , . is vindicated from exceptions . sect. . heb. . . is urged to prove the eternal son-ship of christ. sect. . christs kingdom is the kingdom of the son of man , so termed according to his excellency above all men . sect. . christs consubstantiality with the father , according to his deity , with us , according to his humanity , as the chalcedon councel determined , is asserted and proved from john . . acts . . rom. . , . and . . sect. . the exception against the argument , from acts . . rom. . , . rom. . . is set down . sect. this exception against the argument is refuted . sect. . the consubstantiality of christ with the father and us , is proved from tim. . . sect. . the exceptions against this proof . sect. . these exceptions are refelled . sect. . the same consubstantiality of christ is confirmed , from pet. . , , . gal. . . rom. . . john . . heb. . . and . . john . . sect. . christs consubstantiality with the father and us , is proved from philip. . , , , . sect. . the exception against this argument is recited . sect. . the text is explained in order to the refelling of the exception . sect. . some objections against the proof , from philip. . , , , . are answered , particularly objections against expounding the form of god , philip. . . of the state of empire . sect . i. the god whose kingdom is to be sought is the father of our lord jesus christ. being taught by christ to pray , mat. . . thy kingdom come , and ver . . to seek first the kingdom of god ; it is necessary we know what is meant by the terms [ god the father , the son. ] for explaining whereof we are to consider that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated god answering to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as i shew in my oath-book lect . . sect . . ) in its common notion , notes any numen , divine power , which is worshipped , whether real or nominal : agreably to which st. paul tells us , cor. . , , . as concerning therefore the eating of th●se things that are offered to idols , we know that an idol ( though worshipped as god by deluded gentiles ) is nothing in the world ( hath no power to do good or hurt ) and that there is none other god but ons : for though there be that are called gods , whether in heaven or upon earth ( as there be gods many and lords many ) but to us there is but one god the father , of whom are all things , and we in or for him , and one lord jesus christ , by whom are all things , and we by him : where it is observable that the term [ one god ] is attributed to the father , to wit of christ , who as he is stiled ephes. . . our father , so v. . the god , and father of our lord jesus christ ; who is therefore frequently termed in the writings of the evangelists , especially st. john by our lord christ the father and his father , and distinction is made between one god and one lord , as in this place , so also cor. . , . ephes. . , . ( it is tim. . . one god , and one mediatour between god and men ) and accordingly the apostolical salutations , benedictions , prayers , and valedictions run thus , rom. . . cor. . . cor. . . ephes. . . philip. . . col. . . thes. . . . thes. . . grace to you , and peace from god our father , and the lord jesus christ with addition of mercy , tim. . . tim. . . tit. . . from god the father . cor. . . blessed be god even the father of our lord jesus christ. cor. . . the grace of our lord jesus christ , and the love of god , ephes. . . blessed be the god and father of our lord jesus christ. ephes. . . for this cause i bow my knees unto the father of our lord jesus christ. col. . . we give thanks to god and the father of our lord jesus christ , praying alwaies for you . thes. . , . we give thanks to god alwaies for you all making mention of you in our prayers , remembring without ceasing your work of faith ; and labour of love , and patience of hope , in our lord jesus christ , in the sight of god and our father . james . . james a servant of god , and of the lord jesus christ. pet. . . grace and peace be multiplied unto you , through the knowledge of god , and of jesus our lord. john . grace be with you , mercy and peace from god the father , and from the lord jesus christ the son of the father in truth and love . and accordingly where the word [ god ] or [ father ] is put simply it is distinctly applyed to the father of our lord christ , rom. . , , , , , and . , . and . , . . , , . and , , , . and . . . and . . . , , . and . . and . , . and . , , , , . . , , . and . . , , cor. . , , . , . and . . with many more both in the epistles and other writings of the new testament in which god is distinguished from the lord christ , and is therefore meant of the person of the father , concerning whom the apostle doth expresly say , cor. . . i would have you know , that the head of every man is christ , and the head of the woman is the man , and the head of christ is god. in like manner arch-bishop usher in his diatriba about the ancient apostolical creed of the roman church , and other forms of faith wont to be propounded in catechism and baptism both by the western and eastern christians tells us , pag. . out of rufinus , that almost all the eastern churches do thus deliver their faith : i believe in one god the father almighty , and in the following speech , whereas we say , and in jesus christ his only son our lord , they deliver it thus , and in one lord our lord jesus christ his only son , which he shews in the shorter and larger cre●ds hierosolymitan , alexandrian , that of eusebius caesariensis recited at the first nicene councel , and with some addition assented to as their creed dr. pearson exposition of the th . article , we have already shewn that the father is originally that one god , which is deried by none . hereby we may understand who is meant by [ the father ] to wit , the father of christ , and therefore the kingdom is termed by christ the kingdom of his father , matth. . . because it is appointed or delivered to christ by the father , luke . . matth. . . and . . john . . and . , , , , , , . and . . act● . . . pet. . . and in all his administrations christ expresseth his aim not to be his own , but his fathers glory , john . . . and . . sometimes it is termed the kingdom of their father , mat. . . because god appoints it to the saints , luke . . and . . and therefore christ saith , mat. . . to sit on my right hand , and on my left is not mine to give , but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my father , mat. . . then shall the king say to them on his right hand , come ye blessed of my father , inherit the kingdom prepared for you , from the foundation of the world . acts . . it is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the father hath put in his own power : for which reason it is said . cor. . . of him are all things , and believers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for or to him , in the sense in which it is said , rom. . . for of him , and through him , and to him are all things ; to him be glory for ever , amen : and concerning christ it is aid , phil. . , , , . because he humbled himself and became obedient unto death , even the death of the cross , therefore god also hath highly exalted him , and given him a name , which is above every name , that at the name of jesus every knee should bow , of things in heaven and things in earth , and things under the earth , and that every tongue should confess that jesus is the lord , ( that is ) god's king , king of kings , and lord of lords , at his appearance and in his kingdom , and this shall be ) to the glory of god the pather : and more fully st. paul expresseth it , cor. . , , , , . then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to god even the father , when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power : for he must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet : the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death : for he hath put all things under his feet ; but when he saith , all things are put under him , it is manifest that he is , excepted which did put all things under him , that god may be all in all ; whence you may observe that the term [ god ] is distinctly put for the person of the father , in contradistinction to the son , and that it is the father who appoints the kingdom to the son , that he puts his enemies under his feet , that the son shall deliver up the kingdom to the father , that the issue or end is , that god to wit the father , may be all in all , that is , in all the management of this kingdom from the begining to the end the father may be glorified by the son , and by all others to whom the kingdom is given . sect . . jesus christ is the son of god in the sense professed in the nicene creed . this leads us to enquire concerning the terms [ son of god , of man , christ , the lord jesus christ ] which are the titles by which he is expressed , whose the kingdom is said to be , and therefore we cannot rightly conceive of this kingdom without understanding these terms : that the title the son of the living god , given to jesus christ the son of man is a fundamental article of the christian faith , is manifest from christs approbation of peters answer to christs question to his disciples matth. . . whom do men say that i the son of man am ? to which st. peter answered , verse . thou art the christ the son of the living god , whereto it is said jesus answered and said unto him , blessed art thou simon bar-jona , for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee , but my father which is in heaven : and again , when jesus said to the twelve , will ye also go away ? simon peter answered him , lord , to whom shall we go ? thou hast the words of eternal life , and we believe and are sure that thou art that christ the son of the living god , john . , . and when the eunuch said to philip , acts . . see here is water , what doth hinder me to be baptized ? philip said , if thou believest with all thine heart thou maist , and he answered and said , i believe that jesus christ is the son of god , verse . st. paul acts . . preached christ in the synagogues at dimascus , that he is the son of god. and john . . nathanael said to christ , rabbi . thou art the son of god , thou are the king of israel . john . . he is antichrist that denieth the father and the son. verse . whosoever denieth the son , the same hath not the father . john . . whosoever shall confess that jesus is the son of god , god dwelleth in him , and he in god. john . . who is he that overcometh the world but he that believeth that jesus is the son of god ? verse , . and this is the record ▪ that god hath given to us eternal life , and this life is in his son : he that hath the son hath life , he that hath not the son hath not life . nevertheless there is great difference about this appellation [ the son of god ] whether it import divine nature distinct from humane , or humane nature , yet by divine operation , not by the ordinary way of natural generation as other men are begotten , but by the supernatural operation of the holy ghost according to that of the angel to mary , luke . . the holy ghost shall come upon thee , and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee ; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee , shall be called the son of god. whence the samosatenians and photinians of old , so the socinians in this last age deny that jesus christ had being afore his conception by the holy ghost in the virgins womb , but the arians granting him to have a divine nature , say , that he was created by god the first creature out of nothing , and then that by him god the father made all things else : in opposition to whom the creed of the first nicene councel , as it is in eusebius his epistle to the church of caesarea set down by arch-bishop usher in his diatriba de symbolis pag. . out of at hanasius operum tom . . pag. . edit . commelinian socrates lib. . hist. c. . theodoret. lib. . c. . and gelasius cyricenus in act. concil . nic. part . c. . is thus : we believe also in one lord jesus christ born the only begotten of the father , that is of the substance of the father , god of god , light of light , very god of very god , begotten not made , of the same substance with the father , by whom all things were made , both the things in heaven , and the things in the earth : in which there are these propositions included , . that jesus christ was before any creature was made . . that he was begotten of the substance of the father , not made of nothing , as the arians held . . that he was very god of very god , of the same substance with the father . . that by him all things were made , whether in heaven or in earth , which propositions are proved by these texts of scripture . sect . . christ's being the son of god in the sense of the nicene cre●d is proved from john . , , , , , , , , . the first text of holy scripture which i shall produce to prove them is , john . , , , , , , , , , . where it is thus said , in the begining was the word , and the word was with god , and the word was god , the same was in the begining with god : all things were made by him , and without him was not made any thing that was made , in him was life and the life was the light of men : and the light shineth in darkness , and the darkness comprehended it not : verse . he was the true light which enlightneth every man that cometh into the world , vers . . he was in the world , and the world was made by him , and the world knew him not , verse . and the word was made flesh , and dwelt among us , and we beheld his glory , the glory as of the only begotten of the father , full of grace and truth . verse . john bare witness of him , and cried , saying , this is he of whom i spake , he that cometh after me is preferred before me , for he was before me . verse . no man hath seen god at any time ; the only begotten son which is in the bosom of the father , he hath declared him . it is agreed on , that by [ the word ] is meant jesus christ , as appears from verse , . and other passages in the text , and therefore thence i argue : he who was in the beginning of the creation with god , was god , by whom all things were made , whose life was the light of men , the true light inlightning every man that cometh into the world , by whom the world was made , who was made flesh , was the only begotten of the father , in the bosom of the father , before john the baptist was , before any creature was made , begotten of the substance of the father , not made of nothing , very god of very god , of the same substance with the father , by whom all things were made : but such was jesus christ , therefore he was , before any creature was made , begotten of the substance of the father , not made of nothing very god of very god , of the same substance with the father , by whom all things were made : the minor is almost the express words of the text , the major is evident from the equivolence of terms , it being all one to be god in the beginning by whom all things were made , the world was made , the only begotten of the father in his bosom before john baptist as to be before any creature was made , begotten of the substance of the father , not made of nothing , very god of very god , of the same substance with the father , by whom all things were made . sect . . the exceptions against the proof of christs god-head from john . . &c. are set down . nevertheless the major proposition of the argument is denied , and for a reason of the denial it is said . . that the scope of the apostle , is to set forth by whom the gospel began , as appeareth by the very appellation of [ the word ] here given to christ in regard of his prophetical office in publishing the gospel . . that by [ in the beginning ] is not meant the creation of heaven and earth at first , but of the preaching the gospel and the new creation , as is meant mark . . luke . . john . . and . . and . . and . . acts . . heb. . . john . . and . , , . john . . which note a special term of beginning , which was the time of christs preaching , in respect of which he is said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beginning , luke . . to wit to preach the gospel when he was about thirty years of age , not as it is translated , began to be about thirty years of age . . that he was with god in heaven about that time , being taken up into the third heaven , as paul was , cor. . . and so was in the bosom of god , as is gathered from iohn . , , . and iohn . . . that he was a god as moses is said to be exod. . . because of the power he had to work miracles , and therefore iohn . , the word is said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without the article 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and should be rendred [ a god ] not [ god or the god. ] . that by [ all things made by him ] is not meant the heaven and earth at the first creation , but the things or persons belonging to the new creation by iesus christ expressed in these places , cor. . , , . ephes. . . ephes. . . . that when it is said , the world was made by him ] the meaning is , the church was reformed by him , or life eternal was revealed by him , called heb. . . the world to come . . that his life was the light of men by his preaching : or that in him was life upon his resurrection , and that this life was the light of men by saving them , and raising them up from the dead . . that it should not be read iohn . . he was made flesh ; but the word was flesh , that is , a man of humane weakness after he was a man , and so not meant of his humane nature at his incarnation , but his after condition in his life . . that as isaack is termed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 heb. . . by reason of his being abraham's heir , and extraordinary birth , not because he was the only begotten of the substance of abraham : so iesus christ is termed the only begotten of the father , not from his peculiar generation of the substance of the father before the heaven and earth were made , but so other peculiarities , . because he was by peculiar operation of the holy ghost generated in the virgins womb , which is the reason of this title of the son of god given to christ by the angel himself , luke . . . because of his special sanctification and mission , which is the reason given by christ himself , iohn . . . because of his resurrection from the dead , which is the reason given by st. paul acts . . and therefore termed the first begotten from , or of the dead , col. . . rev. . . . because of his singular exaltation and office , which is agreeable to what is said , psal. . . and whereby he is termed the first born among many brethren , rom. . . and by reason of his calling to the office of chief-priest-hood that is applied to him , heb. . . which is written , psal. . . thou art my son , this day have i begotten thee . . that he was before iohn baptist , not in him , but in power 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mightier , or stronger than him , which is the word used concerning the same speech in the other three evangelists , matth. , . mark . . luke . . sect . . the sense of john . , , , , , , , , , . given by the adversaries , is refelled . i reply , . that irenaeus lib. . adv. heresies , c. . and others near the apostles time , say , that the scope of the evangelist iohn in writing this gospel was to oppose the heresies of the gnosticks , ebion , cerinthus , marcion , valentinus , and such others , as whether from platonick philosophy , or other fancies , corrupted the doctrine of the god-head , made christ a meer man , contrary to which st. iohn asserts his divinity in the beginning , and thence got the name of the divine , and his gospel to be that part of scripture which doth most plainly deliver theology or speech of god , and thereby as also in relating many acts and sermons of christ omitted by other evangelists which makes a supplement to their histories . . that the series of the apostles words , the expressions compared with gen. . , , , , . of [ in the beginning was the word with god , all things were made by him , the life was the light of men , the light shineth in darkness , and the darkness comprehended it not ] are so correspondent to each other , that none but will say , that at least st. john did allude to moses his description of the first creation , and that he did use moses his expressions , and therefore meant the same thing , hath been conceived not only by christians , but also by a●relius the platonist , as eusebius , in his book of evangelical preparation , lib. . c. . relates ; nor is it to be slightly passed over , which john cameron observes in his answers to questions on the epistle to the hebrews , ch . . v. . concerning gods manner of delivering mysteries in the old testament , that it was to be but dusky , as in the twi-light , until the messias his time , who should fully discover the things of god as the sun , when it is risen , doth things before obscured , and that the apostle knew christs creating the world in the beginning even from gen. . for wherefore , saith he , i beseech you , should moses ( which no where else is done in the whole scripture ) so often bring in god speaking , let this and that be made , and after it was made ? for certainly god then used no speech as when he spake to the prophets . it is but a cold answer , that moses did so write , that it might be signified after a humane manner , that god made all things by his beck . for who doubts of that , or doth not indeed know , that to make the frame of the world god used no tools or engines ? besides , if that were the intent , why is not also else-where god brought in using like speech , when he did some great work or miracle ? i do no whit doubt but john had an eye on that place , when he termed christ the word , as if he had said , that christ was pointed out by those expressions ; he said , and it was made , although obscurely indeed , as befitted those times , even as also obscurely mention is made of the holy spirit , in the same chapter , when moses said , and the spirit of god moved upon the waters . for indeed at first view he seems to speak of some wind and so the chaldee paraphrast expounded that place . but because no reason can be given whence that wind should arise , or fit cause why it should move upon the waters , men might be inclined to conjecture that moses in that place had respect to another thing . in the same manner plainly , sith no reason of so diligent and heedful an observation fit enough can be given , that god spake of each thing severally , let it be made and it was made , there must be some mystery couched under those expressions : when therefore in the new testament we are taught , that all things were made by christ , let the jews either open and explain to us that mystery , or let them not shew themselves stiff in this matter . i confess indeed , that without the light of the gospel , we should be hesitant here with the jews ; but sith christ is called the word , and said to be he by whom god made all things , no man hath any more cause of doubting left , but that moses would intimate it by that diligent observation which the words of the psalmist , [ psal. . . . by the word of the lord were the heavens made , and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth : he spake and it was done , besides those word● psal. . . to him that by wisdom ( which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies as well as speech ) made the heavens , psal. . . he commanded and they were created , did so far intimate that the chaldee paraphrast , isa. . . reads ; i in my word have made the earth , and created man upon it and isa. . . by my word i have founded the earth , and philo the jew besides other sayings in his book of allegories shewing his inklings of his knowledge of this mystery , though dark saith , the word or reason , ( for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies both ) made the world : these with many other allegations , which might be produced out of jewish writers , and others do evince , that the evangelist means the same creation , when he saith all things were made by him , and the same beginning when he saith , in the beginning was the word , as moses meant , when he said , in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth . gen. . . . the sense of the words in which the force of the argument consists is according to the plain and obvious use of the words and phrases ; the other for the most part without example , and so streined , as that it may easily be perceived , they studied rather to wrest , than to interpret them ; as will appear by comparing the allegations and senses on both sides given in the particulars as they are in order examined in the next section . . the adversaries acknowledge , that the intent of the evangelist in that which is said of christ , was to set out christ in what he was singular , and was excellent in him : but to expound his words as they do , is to make the evangelist deliver things common to him with others , as to say , in the beginning was the word , that is , preaching the gospel , or in the beginning of the preaching of the gospel the word christ was , that is , had a being , that he was with god , that is , was known of god , is to say no more than might be said of john baptist ; to say he was with god to learn mysteries is the same which st. paul saith of himself , when he was rapt into paradise , or is true of moses when he conferred with god in the mount ; to say all things were made by him , that is , by his preaching the gentiles were become new creatures , is no more than might be said of peter , paul , and other apostles ; to say he was a god in office , that he had divine power to work miracles , is to say no more of him than might be said of moses , of the apostles , nor do they or can they give any good reason , which may agree with the majesty and wisdom of so divine a writing and writer as this of john , to deliver things so obvious in so obscure phrases , as are not congruous to a divine historian , when the same might be , and were by other evangelists delivered in plainer expressions ; nor why he should prefix those sacred aphorisms before his history , if they contained no mystery , but things easily perceivable by sense ; nor is such an end , as is imagined by some , to shew that john baptist was not the messias , any thing probable to have been propounded by john the evangelist , who wrote long after john baptist was dead ; nor could be , or was by any conceived to be the christ : such things as these can hardly be imputed to the evangelist without some note of dotage . . to expound the words [ in the beginning was the word ] that is , in the beginning of the preaching of the gospel was the word , that is , christ was preaching of the gospel , or the preaching of the gospel was , is more like an inept tautology of a trifler , than the holy , wise saying of a divine writer . . the sense given by the adversaries is in sundry things not true ; for in the beginning of the preaching of the gospel christ was not with god in heaven , as they expound , verse . . his being with god , but was come from heaven , and conversed familiarly with men ; nor is it true , that in the beginning of the preaching of the gospel ( be the beginning at john's beginning to preach , or christs , or his apostles , or the continuing of it in the daies of his flesh ) all things belonging to the new creation , the new covenant , the reconciling the world , the preaching and propagating of the gospel were done by him . for the many miracles of christ were not done in the beginning of the preaching of the gospel , nor was his dying for us , nor the sending his apostles , and their impowering by the coming of the holy ghost to them till after his resurrection and ascention : yea those men who expound the words , john . . all things were done by him of divine and marvelous works , yet many divine marvelous works , as , the opening of the heavens , the descent of the spirit in the form of a dove , the transfiguration and glory in the mount , the rending the veil of the temple , the earthquake , cleaving the rocks , opening the graves , darkening of the sun at his death , his resurrection from the dead , they deny to have been done by christ or the concurrence of his power or operation ; nor is it true in their sense , that without him was nothing done that was done ; for in the business of the preaching of the gospel afore christs manifestation to israel , iohn did preach and baptize , and in the working of miracles there were some that did cast out devils in christs name , who followed not christ , luk. . . nor is it true , that in their sense the world was made by christ , that is the gentiles reconciled by christs preaching or the world reformed ; for that was done by the apostles after his ascention : and if it be said , that after christs ascention all things were done by him , that the world was made by him , that was not in the beginning , in which they say , he was the word , that is , did preach the gospel , was a god , that is , did work miracles , was with god , that is , was taken up into heaven , and therefore the making of all things , john . . cannot be understood according to their own exposition of [ in the beginning ] of christs care in ordering and moderating all things belonging to his church after his ascention , nor had any more been said of him as then done than may be said now , which is contrary to the adversaries grant , that some more than ordinary remarkable things is related of christ by st. john in the first verses of his gospel : whence may be justly inferred that the exposition given by them neither is consistent with the truth of things , nor the evangelists words , nor their own sayings . sect . . the reasons of the adversaries exposition of john . , &c. are shewed to be insufficient . but besides other absurdities , which are in the exposition of the adversaries , the reasons they give are mistakes and insufficient for what they produce them : for in the first there is a great mistake , as if the evangelist used the term [ word ] to intimate by whom the preaching of the gospel began ; for christ is not termed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which we translate [ the word ] because he was gods messenger to declare gods mind to us in the gospel ; the term [ word ] is not fit to expresse a deputy , but the term [ ambassador , lega●e ] but because it signifies reason , and wisdom , and therefore fitly expresseth christ , who was the wisdom of god , by whom he made all things at the beginning of the creation , psal. . . prov. . . with whom he was when he prepared the heavens , prov. . . to which the evangelist alludes , when he saith , john . . the same was in the beginning with god , and the authour of the book of wisdom , ch . . . alluding to that , gen. . . let us make man in our image , saith , who hast framed man in thy wisdom , or , because all things are said to be made by the word of god , as in the places before alledged , psal. . . . psal. . . alluding without doubt to the expressions , gen. . , , , , , , , , . and accordingly the holy writers in the new testament , expresse the first creation , as done by the word of god. st. paul cor. . . god who commanded the light to shine out of darkness . heb. . . through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of god. pet. . . for this they willingly are ignorant of , that by the word of god , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the heavens were of old , and the earth standing out of the water , and in the water , or as it may be read , consisting of water , and by water ; for which reason the chaldee paraphrast in abundance of places , especially where gods creating of heaven and earth is signified , useth this expression , i have done it by my word , as isa. . . and . . hos. . . whence it is apparent that st. john used the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the word as a title known to the jews , answering to the chaldee , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and that , as heinsius arist. sac . exercit . in non . c. . observes , it undoubtedly comes from the east , not from the greeks , and that by reason of his relating gods acts , especially the creation , as done by the word , it is not given by the evangelist to christ , to signifie his preaching of the gospel , but his creation of the world at first , and consequently to be understood of his divine nature , in which he created all things in the beginning of the world ; nor doth the speech , john . , . that what was from the beginning which he and other apostles had seen with their eyes , and their hands handled of the word of life , prove , that the term [ word of life ] imports only christs humane nature , or that he is so termed from preaching the gospel : for it is not said , that they handled or saw the word of life , but they heard , saw , handled , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 concerning the word of life , that is as verse . and the life was manifested and we have seen , and witness , and shew unto you that eternal life which was with the father , and was manifested unto us , that is , as is expressed , tim. . . god was manifested in the flesh ; so that what they heard , saw , handled , concerning the word of life , or divine nature was manifested in the flesh by his words of command to unclean spirits to depart , to the winds and seas to be still , by his miracles which they saw , felt , tasted , whereby he manifested his glory , joh. . . and . . and . . whence christ argues , john , , . if i do not the works of my father believe me not , but if i do , though ye believe not me , believe the works , that ye may know and believe that the father is in me , and i in him . john . , . the words that i speak unto you i speak not of my self , but the father that dwelleth in me , he doth the works : believe me that i am in the father and the father in me ; or else believe me for the very works sake ; nor is christ described , rev. . . where he is called [ the word of god ] as a prophet to shew that the title [ word of god ] imported his preaching , but as a warriour to shew his power ; not as the essay on rev. . . because he came immediately from the divine majesty in heaven to publish the gospel to the world , and had full power to do whatsoever miracles he pleased . . it is true that [ in the beginning ] is wont to be restrained to the matter in hand , nor is it denied but that in many of the places alledged in the second exception [ in the beginning ] is meant of the preaching of christ , nor is it material in this point , whether [ beginning ] luke . . be referred to christs age , or the preaching of the gospel , though the latter be lesse probable , because then when christ was baptized of john he had not begun to preach the gospel till after his temptation in the wilderness . but the thing to be proved is , that the preaching of the gospel is the matter in hand , joh. . , . the word [ the beginning ] is used john . . john . . mat. . , ▪ and . . mark. . . and . . heb. . . pet. . . for the beginning of the creation , and the very expressions , john . , , , 〈◊〉 , , . and other evidences before alledged shew it , answers to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gen. . . gr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as john . . and in both places are delivered with the like agreableness to gods majesty in creating , that even as longinus the philosopher magnified moses his description of the creation , so franciscus junius that eminent divine was taken with the reading of john . . &c. and from his inclinations to atheism was by it brought to the knowledge of christ , as he relates in the narration of his own life . as for the sense the adversaries give , in the beginning was the word , that is , in the beginning of the gospel was the word , that is , the man christ jesus called the word , in that he was the immediate interpreter of god , by whom he revealed his counsel touching our salvation , as we are wont to disclose our secrets by our words , which reason , it is said , may not obscurely be collected from the . v. of the same chapter , and the word was with god , being taken up into heaven , that so he might talk with god , and be indeed his word , or the immediate interpreter of his will , and receive the most certain and absolute knowledge of the kingdom of heaven which he was to propound to men , it hath no colour from the text ; for neither is it said , in the beginning of the gospel , nor the appellation of [ the word ] is given to christ in regard of his prophetical office , nor is it said in the beginning the word was preaching , but simply was , noting his existence , not his acting ; nor will the order of the apostles propositions consist with the sense they give , for then st. john should have said thus : in the beginning the word was with god , and after he had been with god , he came down from heaven and was the word , that is , preached the gospel , and then he was a god , as being endued with divine power and empire , to cast out devils , and to do great works , as moses did ; whereas the first thing he sets down in the being of christ in the beginning , and then his being with god , and his being god , and the making of all things by him , which can be applied in this order to no beginning , but that of the creation , and therefore [ in the beginning ] must be understood of the first creation of all things , and not of the publishing the gospel , as they would have it . . this consideration also overthrows their sense of the words [ was with god ] of his being taken up into heaven , that so he might talk with god , and be indeed his word . for if it were meant of his taking up into heaven in a humane body ( as cor. . . is said of paul ) then it should have been put first , whereas it is the second and fourth proposition , john . , . and being repeated , v. . and then it following , verse . all things were made by him , and without him not one thing was made that was made , it plainly shews that the meaning is , that he was with god in the work of creation of the heaven and earth , so as that all things were made by him as the son of god , or god with the father : as for the words , verse . of his being in the bosom of his father , they do not shew his receiving instructions from god , as a messenger , taken up into heaven , that he might be sent down again to deliver his message perfectly and amply , but the love ▪ and intimacy and nearness to his father , in that he was his only begotten son , and therefore was perfectly acquainted with him , and his mind : and it seems to me that the evangelist alluded , john . , , . to the passages which are prov. . , . when he gave to the sea his decree , that the waters should not passe his commandement , when he appointed the foundations of the earth , then i was by him as one brought up with him , ( hebr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a foster child , aquila , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nursed as a child in the bosom ) and i was daily his delight , rejoycing alwaies before him , which is the opinion of grotius annot . ad j● . . . prov. . . and many others , and shews , that the being in the bosom was not as a servant to be imployed , but as a son , in whom he delighted , as is said , matth. . . and . . as for that which hath been immagined concerning the meaning of the words , the word was with god , john . , . as if it were thus , he was known to god , though unknown to men till he was manifested by john , as it is partly false , sith he was known to mary his mother , zecharias , elizabeth , simeon , anna , joseph , to the wise men of the east , as the son of god , king of the jews , a horn of salvation out of the house of david , the lord , the rising from on high , the light of the gentiles , the glory of the people israel , the lords christ , as may be perceived by reading luke . and . ch . mat. . and . so is it frivolous , as being without any example of such use of the expressions , and contrary to the use of the phrase , which still notes presence of being , or subsist●nce , or cohab●●ation , as mat. . , . mark . . and . . luke . . cor. . . &c. and signifies joh. . , . his being with god in the beginning of the creation , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with thee , joh. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , prov. . . which the chaldee paraphrast reads , at his side , and exod. . . let not the lord speak with us by the word which is before the lord , and the wisdom of solomon as it is stiled , ch . . . saith thus : and wisdom was with thee which knoweth thy works , and was presen● when thou madest the world , where the translators in the margin not unfitly place prov. . . joh. . , , , . as parallel texts to shew the presence and co-operation of the word in the making of the world ; which shew the jews had some ●nkling of the words subsistence at the creation , though the writing be apocryphal , nor doth his being with the father john . , . signifie objective presence , but essential . as for the device of christs being taken up into heaven in his humane body , as it is a late invention , so it is improbable , sith no certain time or other circumstance is expressed in the evangelists , in which it should be , which in so remarkable a thing it 's not likely would have been omitted any more than in paul's narration of himself , cor. . . if such an ascention had been ; nor is the reason given that he should be taken up to heaven that he might talk with god , and receive the most certain and absolute knowledge of the kingdom of heaven , which he was to propose to men , probable , sith another reason is given of his knowledge , john. . . for he whom god hath sent , speaketh the words of god : for god giveth not the spirit by measure to him ; nor is he any where said to go from the earth , and to return thither ; and when christ speaks of his going to heaven , he saith , luke . . ought not christ to suffer these things , and to enter into his glory ? which intimates his going to heaven , to have followed his sufferings , and heb. . . the authour of that epistle saith , by his own blood he entred in once into the holy place , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whether it be read once , or for once , or at once , it notes but one time entring into heaven with his blood , as his offering was but once , heb. . . and not often as the high-priest aaronical did . as for what is alledged , [ that john . , , , . christ affirmeth that he came down from heaven , and had seen god , and that he was the living bread which came down from heaven , whereof whosoever did eat should live for ever ; so the bread which he would give was his flesh , which he would give for the life of the world : and afterwards asketh the jews , what if they should see the son of man ascending up where he was before ? namely , before he began to preach the gospel , as he himself intimateth , john . . where he saith , if god were your father , you would love me , for i went out from god , and came : for neither came i of my self , but he sent me : and john . . where he saith , i came out from the father , and came into the world : again ( or rather on the contrary ) i leave the world , and go to the father : which going forth from the father , every one may easily perceive , by the opposition of the following clause , is meant of a local procession of christ from god , and that before the discharge of his embassy : for to come , or to come into the world signifieth to treat with men in the name of god , and to perform a publick office among men , see iohn . . , . and iohn . , . mat. . , , . ioh. . . compared with chap. . . and chap. . . ] it evinceth not a bodily ascent into heaven of christ to learn of god afore his publishing the gospel , for it is not said whither he ascended before , but was before , which notes presence there , but not local motion ; nor is it said in his humane body ; though it be said , the son of man was there before ; yet this may be understood by the figure of communication of properties very frequent in speeches of christ , according to his divine nature ; nor is he said to be there before his preaching the gospel , restraining the time to it ; it may be meant of his being in heaven afore the world was , as it is said , iohn . . nor is it said , christs flesh came from heaven , or that he came from heaven by local motion , or saw god by his eyes of flesh ; his coming and seeing god , may be understood of his divine nature in respect of which he was of heavenly original , though his being bread be meant of his flesh and humane nature in which he suffered , and his coming out from god , and coming john . . is expounded of his receiving commission from god , as the words shew , neither came i of my self , that is , i have not taken upon me this office , i now administer of mine own motion only , but he sent me ; nor is coming out from the father necessarily understood , of coming out from the father , and coming into the world by local procession ; but the coming out from the father may be meant of receiving commission from his father , or his original being , and his coming into the world either of his humane birth , or as the allegation expresseth it , his treating with men in the name of god , and performing a publick office among men , unto one of which , the texts produced lead us , and not to the sense of local procession in his humane body , nor doth the opposition prove it , for the sense may be right thus : i came out from the father by generation , and taking my commission from him , and came into the world by humane birth , or as it is , iohn . . a light into the world by my preaching the gospel , and again , or on the contrary , i leave the world by death , or removing from the earth , and go by my bodily ascent to the father : as for iohn . . neither is the coming down from heaven , nor his being in heaven necessarily understood of removal from earth to heaven , and back again by bodily motion , but may be meant of his being in heaven in his divine nature , and coming down from heaven by being made flesh , or receiving his commission from god , in respect of one or both of which he is said , verse . to come from heaven , from above , in opposition to being of the earth by humane generation , or authority . and verse . he is said to have seen and heard by his intimacy with his father , and the communication of the spirit . verse . not by his bodily eyes or ears upon a supposed personal humane presence and conference with god in heaven . . the apellation of god given to the word , job . . . is not from his office as altogether divine , as being above prophets , whose office , if compared with christs , was humane ; for moses was a prophet of whom god said , numb . . . with him will i speak mouth to mouth , even apparently , and not in dark speeches , and the similitude of the lord shall he behold : and st. paul was rapt into the third heaven , and heard words unspeakable , cor. . . and yet neither of them termed god ; yea , st. paul abhorred it with indignation , acts . , . such persons may be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divine men , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gods : nor is the word termed god , as endued with divine power : for then moses might be so termed , for he was a prophet endued with divine power and empire , so as to controul pharaoh and to work miracles : but moses is not termed god , though god said to him , i have made thee a god to pharaoh , exod. . . and thou shalt be to aaron 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for or instead of god , that is , as a prince or master to command or direct him exod. . . but the word , it 's said , iohn . . was god absolutely , noting what he was in himself , not relatively what he was to another , shewing what he was in nature and power , not what he was designed for , or what his imployment or work should be , or what he was in office , no whit expressing from whom , to whom , for what he was sent , or what he did , but what he was : and his being god is said to be in the beginning , not in the progress of his preaching in which he did miracles , nor after his resurrection when all power was given him in heaven and in earth , mat. . . nor after his ascention , when he was exalted by the right hand of god , acts . . god made him both lord and christ , verse . but in the beginning of the creation , when he made all things , and therefore was god the creatour , as the authour to the hebrews ch . . . asserts , he that built , or framed all things is god : where it may be observed , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 god is put without the article 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and yet by god is there meant not a substituted god by office , but god the creatour , and iohn . , , , . and in a great number of other places it is likewise used ; and therefore notwithstanding this exception the word is to be believed to have been god creatour , very god of very god in the beginning of the creation at first , as v. . is asserted . . that the making of all things by the word is not meant of the new creation is proved before sect. . and that the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 used iohn . ; . translated by us made , are used of the first creation is manifest from the use , heb. . . and . . cor. . . as gen. . . and gen. . , , , , , , , . and . . and therefore the creation of all things of the world at first , is fi●ly expressed by those words , iohn . , . and so the universal creation at first ascribed to the word : nor is it any deminution to christ , that it is said , all things were made by him , and without him was nothing made which was made , and the world was made by him . for the expressions by him , not without him do not note alwaies an instrument , even rom. . . it is said , all things are of him , and by him , and for him , who is the lord , to whom glory belongs for ever ; but shews the order and co-operation of the father and the word in the creation . as for the passage , cor. . . it is granted to be meant of the new state of things by christs reconciling the world to god , verse . but it is not like the words , iohn . , . where all things are said , to be made , not made new by him , and old things past away , and all things are said to be made by him in the beginning ; whereas the making all things new by reconciling the world to god , was by christs being made sin for them , ver . . by his death , and therefore not in the beginning of his preaching the gospel , and therefore cannot be meant of the same creation , ephes. . . the ephesians are said to be created in christ iesus unto good works , not by christ jesus , but to be gods work. the words ephes. . . may be more rightly understood of the first creation , in which christ was co-worker , which the words from the beginning of the world seem to intimate ; however they are not like iohn . . in expressions , and therefore evince not , that they are to be both understood of the same thing . . the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 can signifie no other than either the frame of heaven and earth , or the inhabitants in it , as iohn . , . iohn . , . and . . and many more places , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 can have no other signification , than was made by him , at the first creation . for the world was made by him afore he was in it , and it knew him not , it being put as an aggravation of their perverseness , that the world that was made by him , knew him not , which can be verified of no time , but the first creation ; which is confirmed by the two next verses : for verse . coming into the world is meant , of appearing among men , whether by birth or other manifestation , and therefore the world must signifie , verse . the earth or men , and so , verse . which is apparent in that , when it is said , the world knew him not , it must be expounded , men knew him not , and the words following , he came unto his own , and his own received him not , verse . must be understood of men , whether his own be meant of men simply , or men that he had special relation to as country men , or kinsmen . and for the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we translate [ was made ] as here put , it never signifies any other thing than was , or was made , or was begotten , not revealing , preaching , or renewing . nor does the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the world ] signifie , being put without any further addition or expression , heaven , or immortality , or eternal life . the place , rom. . . that abraham should be heir of the world , if meant of his own natural posterity inheriting , is to be conceived meant of the promised land ; if of christ , of the empire of the world , as psal. . . is foretold ; if of his seed by faith , to be co-heirs with christ , rom. . . if ( as it is most likely from the connexion with the th . and th . verse ) of the world of believers jews , and gentiles of whom he is father , still it is meant of mens persons , not their meer state and condition , heb. . . the coming into the world , is coming among men , and that to offer himself in sacrifice , and the preparing of his body is not making it immortal , but fitting it for death , as verse , . do plainly shew ; neither of the places , heb. . . or , . . have the word translated world , john . . in the one the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 opposed to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 desart , in the other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and notes the course of time , place , or generation future ; neither the state it self of eternal life , which is distinct from the world to come , luke . . and cannot be meant of the world made by christ , john . . which is not future , but was existent when christ was in it . for the same reasons , by the world made by christ , cannot be meant the church reformed by him ; for if by the world be elsewhere meant the church of the elect , or world of believers reconciled to god ( as is conceived to be meant , iohn . . cor. . . &c. ) yet here it cannot be meant , because it is said , the world knew him not , received him not , even that world which was made by him ; but the church of the elect , or , believers reconciled to god , knew him , and received him : nor doth any where the word [ was made ] put as here , signifie was renewed , enlightned , reformed ; nor if it were so used , could it be here , sith the world knew him not , nor received him , which is said to be made by him : and to say that the meaning is , the world was made by him , that is , the world was so far as concerned his action , as much as in him lay , enlightned , renewed , reformed , though not in the event , so as to note christs study and endeavour , not the effect , is without all example ; sith the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth note being , and effect of the thing , not intention or action of the agent , and so the church of elect would be no more made by him than others , and it would be clean contrary to the apostles intention to shew the event of his being in the world , that notwithstanding the world was made by him , yet they were so averse from him , as not to know him , and so perverse as not to receive him ; understanding synecdochically , the greater part ( as pet. . . and elsewhere the world is put for the multitude , or greatest part ) distinct from them that received him , verse , . . the life which is said was in the word , was in him in the beginning , not restored to him at his resurrection , and it is said was in him , not as john . . and . . he was the life causally and relatively to others , but in him , that is in himself , and so notes what he had in respect of his essence , and natural being , not by his office , or communicated power in that respect . and when it is said , the life was the light of men , it is not said , the life shall be the light of men , but was so in the beginning ; nor is it said , it was the light of men as dead or fallen , but of men simply as men , and so cannot be understood of the light infused by regeneration , or restored by raising from the dead , but communicated by creation , and notes the natural light of reason and understanding wherewith christ inlightens every man which cometh into the world , verse . of which more may be seen in my book of the true old light exalted , serm. . on joh. . . nor is it to the contrary , that ver . . it is said , and the light shineth in the darkness , and the darkness comprehended it not : for taking the shining by enallage of tense ( as it must be , whether it be meant of shining by creation or preaching ) for the time past , and the sense be , and the light shined in the darkness ; it may be meant of the beginning of the creation allusively to gen. . , , , , . and in the sense of the apostle , cor. . . god spake , to wit , by the word , that the light should shine out of darkness , and the darkness did not comprehend it ; or if the sense be , christ the true light when he came into the world , shined among dark men , and they did not comprehend him , or his doctrine which he taught ; it proves not that verse . is not meant of christs life by nature , and his life being the light of men , by creation of them with understanding in the beginning . for as ver . , , . the stupidity and perversness of men is shewed , that notwithstanding christ made the world , and enlightens all men , yet when he was in the world , and preached to them , they knew not , nor received him ; so in like manner , v. . . to the same purpose with good congruity of sense and reason the evangelist , to shew the great alienation of men from their creatour , saith , that though in the word was life in the beginning , and his life was the cause of mens natural light in the creation of adam , and eve the mother of all living , yet when he the true light shined by his preaching among men , who were by sin and ignorance in darkness , and the shadow of death , the dark spirits of men did not comprehend , understand , and receive him and his doctrine . . that flesh is as much as a man simply as man , is obvious out of many passages in holy scripture , and particularly , john . , &c. and that it notes christs humane nature or humane body as such is manifest from john . , , , , , , &c. and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to be rendred was made , as john . , . and the sense , as in rom. . . gal. . . heb. . . and such places , is , that he was incarnate or made a man , and that this was a voluntary act in taking a humane nature , not a part of his sufferings is manifest from what is added , he was made flesh , and dwelt among us , which notes an act of his will or choice , and imports his assumption of a humane body , that it might be an everlasting habitation for his divine majesty , and therein converse with man ; and that he was made flesh , not under the notion of weakness but humane nature , is evident from the words following , and we beheld his glory , the glory as of the only begotten of the father , which shews that in his flesh , which he was made , his glory , that is , his divine majesty was beheld in the great works he did in his humane body , and that he dwelt in or among us , full of grace & truth ; which shew [ that he was made flesh ] notes not his weakness but humane nature having power and excellency . adde hereto that the being of the word was expressed before , john . , , , , . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he was , therefore 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , verse . must be meant of his being made a man besides his being the word . and to say the word , who was a man , was a man ; had been to trifle , to say nothing but what might be said of every man ; yea , and that which was discernable by sense , and so needless to be testified by john , who intended to express divine mysteries concerning christ in things that were singular and excellent , and could be known but by revelation from god : and this reason overthrows this sense , the word that is the interpreter of gods will , was flesh , that is , a man of infirmities ; for then no more had been said of him , than might have been said of john baptist , and other prophets ; the sense then must be this and no other , the word which was in the beginning , was with god , was god , by whom all things were made , and without whom nothing was made that was made , in whom was life , and the life was the light of men , enlightning every man that someth into the world , by whom the world was made , was in the fulness of time made a man in a humane body having his divine majesty dwelling in him full of grace and truth , so that we beheld his glory in his miracles , his grace and truth in his holy and wise doctrine such as manifested him to be the only begotten of the father . . the terms , john . . the only begotten of the father , verse . the only begotten which is in the bosom of the father , must be understood of generation , before the world was made , of the substance of the father . for the term notes generation , and so subsistence from his substance , not creation out of nothing , or created matter as adam , nor can he be said to be the only begotten son of the father , from his peculiar forming as man , expressed luke . . for adam who was formed without the help of man , and called the son of god , luke . . was so , as much the only begotten son of god , as the word , or jesus christ. nor is he said to be the only begotten of the father by reason of his peculiar love : for the peculiar love is from his peculiar sonship , not that the form or cause of it : nor is he said to be the son of god by regeneration , as they that believe in christ are the sons of god , john . . for so many are sons of god ; nor from his peculiar mission , resurrection or exaltation . for though these proved him the only begotten of the father as evidences thereof , yet not as causes of his son-ship . but he is intituled the only begotten son of the father from his proper generation and sonship , whence he is stiled his son , rom. . . his own proper son , verse . not adopted but natural , otherwise adam might be from his original as well stiled his own proper son. that christ jesus is in respect of his natural generation , before the world was , the only begotten son of god may be evinced , . from mat. . , , . christ asking , whom do men say that i the son of man am , it being answered , verse . some say john the baptist , others elias , others jeremias , or one of the prophets ; our lord christ further presseth them to tell him , whom they said him to be , verse . plainly intimating , that these opinions of him were short of what they were to esteem him , whereupon simon peter answered and said , verse . thou art the christ the son of the living god , to whom christ replies , verse . blessed art thou simon bar-jona , for flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee , but my father which is in the heavens . which plainly shews , . that the confessing him to be the son of god , was more than to be the son of man , john baptist , elias , jeremiah or one of the prophets . . that this being the son of god , was such a thing as was not to be revealed by flesh and blood , but by his father in heaven , therefore it was not his being gods son , by the supernatural conception of the blessed virgin , for that she could tell , both by her own knowledge of her virginity , and the angels revelation ; nor by special mission , for that had been , but as one of the prophets , as moses , and had been discernable by flesh and blood upon the sight of his great works , to which he often appealed , as demonstrating him to be sent of his father as the messiah , john . , . nor as mediatour only ; for then there had been no more acknowledged by peters confessing him to be the son of the living god , than by confessing him to be the christ , therefore he was the son of the living god by generation of his fathers substance before the world was , which his father onely could reveal . . this is further proved from these texts of scripture which make it the demonstration of the greatest love of god in giving his only begotten son , john . . not sparing his own son , but giving him up for us all , rom. . . but this had not been such a commendation of his love , if christ had been only a supernaturally conceived man specially commissionated as mediatour , if he had not been the son of god by generation before the world was , of his fathers substance , it had not been more than the not sparing holy angels but giving them for us ; therefore he must be the son of god , by such generation of the fathers substance , as he had before the world was . . heb. . , , . our lord christ is preferred before moses , as being a son over his own house , and this house built by himself , who built all things , and therefore god , whereas moses was but faithful as a servant in gods house , not his ow● , therefore christ is the son of god , as he is god with his father , building or framing all things , and consequently the son of god by generation of his fathers substance , before the world was . . it is said heb. . . though he were a son , yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered , which shewed a singular demission of himself in his obedience ; but if he had been only a son by creation as the angels , or as a meer man , by supernatural conception in the virgins womb , there had been ▪ no such demission of himself by agreement or accord as here , and heb. . . is set forth ; his subjection had not been free but necessary as being gods creature , if he had not been the son of god by natural generation of his substance before the world was . if he had been the son of god , only as sent by god , to be mediatour , there had been a tautology , to say , although he was sent by god to be me●ia●our , yet he did obey as mediatour , and being consecrated or perfected became authour of salvation to them that obey him ; which is as if he had said , though he were mediatour , yet he was mediatour , which had been ●ugatory . as for that which is chiefly objected , that the reason of this title [ the son of god ] given to christ is from the peculiar generation he had by the operation of the holy ghost : besides that which is already said , that such a forming was of adam at first , who was not the son of god in that singular manner that christ was , and if there were no other reason of his being the son of god , but this , he should be termed peculiarly the son of the spirit , whereas he is stiled the only begotten of the father , it is said , that holy thing which shall be born of thee , intimates that what should be born of her was holy , and had being before that birth of the virgin , and that his being called the son of god , was not for that as the cause , at least not the sole cause , and that his being called the son of god , was a consequent of being that holy thing , god with us , as it is mat. . . the other texts , john . . acts . . heb. . . &c. do only prove , that his singular mission , resurrection , and priest-hood demonstrated him to be the son of god , not made him such ; for then he had not been the son of god before these , whereas the angels words shew , luke . . and the adversaries yeild , he was the son of god from his generation and birth of the blessed virgin . . it is true the speech john . , , . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being translated , is prefered before me , may be well conceived to be the same , or to answer to that which is mat. . . mark . . euke . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is stronger than i , or is more prevalent , or more powerful than i : but the words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for he was before me , must note priority of time : for . the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was , notes his actual existence , what he was in being , not what he was to be in gods intention . . though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 first , note not only priority of order , but also of rule and power , and is sometimes as much as the chief , yet it cannot be so meant , john . , , . for . that was before expressed by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , rendred well , was preferred before me , noting chiefdom , preheminence or power , and therefore must note something distinct from it , otherwise it would be a tri●ling tautology , and therefore it must be understood of priority of essence , in duration and excellency of being before him , which alone may well be conceived as the cause of his praelation . . if christ had not being before john baptist , it could not be well said as it is , v. . by him including himself , and of his fulness we all have received , and grace for grace , sith john had his being as man before christ , and was filled with the holy ghost from his mothers womb , luke . . . sect . . christs generation before the world was , is proved from john. . . christs being the son of god afore his incarnation is proved from his words , john . . verily , verily i say unto you , before abraham was i am . the occasion of which words was from that which our lord christ in the temple , spake to the jews , ver . . verily , verily , i say unto you , if a man keep my saying he shall never see death : which the jews conceived so notorious an untruth , that they inferred he must be possessed by the devil , sith abraham , was dead , and other holy men . to which our lord christ replied , that he honoured , not himself , but his father honoured him , that abraham rejoyced to see his day and saw it and was glad , which did intimate that he had seen abraham , and abraham him , else how could he say , he rejoyced to see his day and saw it , and was glad ? this was accounted by the jews for a greater untruth , so that they reply to him , thou art not yet fifty years old , and hast thou seen abraham , dead near two thousand years before ? to whom christ returns this constant asseveration no whit revoking or mincing his former speech , verily , verily , i say unto you , before abraham was , i am ; which both the occasion , the manner of expression , and the words plainly shew to have this sense , before abraham was a man in rerum naturâ , before abraham was conceived in the womb , or born , i am , that is , have and had a being ; which can be understood of no other than his divine nature , far exceeding the time of abraham's being ; which the jews conceived , he meant as they did , when he said , john . . my father worketh hitherto and i work ; that he said also that god was his father , making himself equal with god , ver . . and when he said john . . i and my father are one , that being a man he made himself god , ver . . which they accounted blasphemy , and would have stoned him for these sayings : yet did not christ revoke his speech , but hid himself , and after went out of the temple , going through the midst of them , and so passed by , verse . and therefore his words have this assertion , that he had a being before abraham , which can be no other than his divine nature by generation , of the substance of his father before the world was . the exceptions against this inference , are . that it should be read , being in the aorist . before abraham , is to be , or shall be , or is made abraham , that is , the father of many nations by the calling and graffing in the gentiles , into the true olive : i am as it is ver . . the light of the world , or the messiah ; as when he said , verse . if ye believe not that i am , that is , the messiah , ye shall dye in your sins ; and verse . when ye have lift up the son of man ye shall know that i am , that is , the messiah . . that jesus was before abraham by divine constitution , which grotius annot . on john . . makes the sense as john . . apocal. . . . pet. . . and dr. hammond in his paraphrase of john . . thus expounds it : jesus answered that objection of theirs ; you are much mistaken in my age . for . i have a being from all eternity , and so before abraham was born , and therefore as young as you take me to be , in respect of my age here , i may well have seen and known abraham . but then . in respect of my present appearance here on earth , though that be but a little above thirty years duration , yet long before abraham ' s time , it was decreed by my father , and in kindness to abraham revealed to him , while he lived ; in which respect it is true that he knew me also . to which i reply . . that the words either way expounded had been impertinent , as not answering the objection , verse . of christs age not exceeding fifty , and therefore he could not see abraham ; for his being a man before the gentiles were called , gods constitution and decree , and the revelation of it to abraham , that in his seed all the nations of the earth should be blessed , was altogether besides the thing christ was to do , to wit , the verifying of this , that he had seen abraham , abraham being a person , not signifying any where the calling of the gentiles , and christs seeing him , an action , which presupposeth an existent substance , in which it must be . and therefore if christs words had imported no more than this , that before the gentiles should be called , christ was the messiah , or god had decreed and revealed his being the messiah to abraham , christs speech might have been false , that he had seen abraham : yea , it had been nugatory , for christ had said no more of himself than might be said by any of the jews , that he was in gods decree before the calling of the gentiles ; and it had been also false , that before abraham was father of many nations , christ had a being , or was the light of the world , if he had no being afore his incarnation , sith abraham was father of many nations , israelites , ishmaeli●es , edomites , and in some sort a spiritual father of many nations , by the adjoyning themselves to the people of the god of abraham , psal. . , . afore christ was born . and it had been delusory , and aenigmatical to understand the words before abraham's being of the future time , when the objection was of his being long before ; and to make the answer to be of abraham under a spiritual consideration , when the objection was of him as the natural progenitour of the jews , and of christ in respect of his office or imployment , when the objection was of his natural duration , which had been contrary to christs manner of teaching , averring and vindicating his speeches : for though sometimes he answer obliquely , and teach by consequences , leaving his auditors to consider his words , yet still his replies are solid , pertinent and convincing . and though the exposition of some of them have no small difficulty , yet his speeches are not in such an aenigmatical and dark manner as this , by allusion to the etymology or derivation of a name , when other expressions were obvious : besides , if christ did at any time use such dark expressions or manner of answering , yet he cannot be conceived rightly to have done so in this answer , in which his preface , verily , verily i say unto you , shews his answer to have been direct and plain , and was taken by the jews in the sense importing his priority of being , which christ gainsaid not , and all interpreters till this last age , have so expounded them . . the words cannot by any instance of the like use of them be shewed to have the sense put on them . for however the aorist may signifie the future time , yet as the occasion , so also christ's averring his own being , antecedent to abraham's , shews it must be understood here of the time past , and be read before abraham was , not abraham shall be . and if he had alluded to abrahams name changed , he should have said , before abraham , shall be abraham : and the objection being about christs age , and so the impossibility of his seeing abraham , the answer is an assertion of his existence , without any thing added : it is granted , that the words , verse , . need a supply , yet neither there , nor ver . . can the supplement be conceived to be taken from , vers . . so as that the meaning should be , unless ye believe that i am the light of the world , ye shall know that i am the light of the world ; before abraham was , i am the light of the world . for the words , v. . do shew that the speech he made before was interrupted , and he began a new conference with them , verse . and therefore the supplement to be added , v. , . is more likely to be from verse . unless ye believe that i am from above , ye shall know that i am from above , in which verses the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that shews it to be an object of faith , which requires something to be known and believed besides his being , which was obvious to their senses ; but ver . . the particle is not , nor any thing required of them ; but there 's a plain and direct assertion of his being without any other supplement ; nor is there any difficulty in expounding i am , by i was , the present tense being like manner used for the time past , john . . and . . and . . and , as grotius well observes , there is the like expression in the greek , psal. . . before the mountains were brought forth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thou art , that is , thou wast , noting time past continued , and therefore by the syriack interpreter , and no●●us his paraphrase , rightly it is rendered john . . before abraham was born i was ; nor is it unlikely that he used this expression in the sense in which it is said by god , isa. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i am he , to which john . . is consonant : the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is neither joh. . . nor revel . . . and that neither are understood of gods decre● , is shewed in the next section , vide plac. disp . . § . . &c. sect . . christs being before the world was , is proved from john . . to these passages in the gospel of st. john for confirmation of the same thing , i shall adde the words of christ in his prayer to his father , john . . and now , o father , glorifie thou me with thine own self , with the glory which i had before the world was with thee ; which words do evince , that christ had glory with his father before the world was , which is the description of eternity , psal. . . prov. . , . whence it follows , that before the world was , christ had a being in glory with his father , which could be no other than his divine nature , as he was son of god , and therefore is to be acknowledged to be begotten of the substance of the father before the world was . to this it is answered , that the glory here is not divine majesty , but glory of immortality and honour to him as man , such glory as was given to him , verse . and which he saith he had given to his disciples , ver . . as it is said , tim. . . that god had saved them , and called them with an holy calling , not according to their works , but according to his own purpose and grace , which was given them in christ jesus , before the world began ; to wit in gods predestination . and in the same respect the apostle saith , cor. . . we have a building of god , an house not made with hands eternal in the heavens , heb. . . that they had in heaven a better and enduring substance , in the sense in which christ is said to be fore-ordained before the foundation of the world , pet. . . to be the lamb s●ain from the beginning of the world ; so believers are said to have everlasting life , john . . & . . john . , . not in possession but predestination . to which i reply that it is somewhat difficult to explain what the glory is with which christ prayes his father to glorifie him , and how he would have him glorifie him , by reason of the various meanings of the term glory and waies of gods glorifying . the petition implies it was such glory as he had before the world was , now had not : this may be best understood by considering how he had it with the father before the world was ? two waies are conceived , one by actual possession , the other by predestination or fore-ordaining : for the former , and against the latter are these reasons . . from the tense , [ which i had ] in the preterimperfect tense , which if meant of having in purpose only it should be , which i have with thee , sith gods purpose or fore-appointment was still the same . . which reason is strengthened from the time , now glorifie me , which intimates he had it not then ; but he was then glorified in purpose . . before the world was , which shews when he had it , and how he would have it again , but he doth not petition to have it again only in purpose , but in actual possession . . he desires that he may have that glory with his father 's own self . which he had with him : now with his father 's own self , in the one part must be meant of his presence , and that in heaven , as when it is said , john . . we have an advocate with the father , that is , in his presence in heaven , therefore also in the other part , with thee , cannot be meant , in thy purpose , but in thy presence in heaven . . christ had the glory with his father before the world was in a peculiar manner , such ●s none of the elect have , with such love before the foundation of the world , as was singular , verse . but , if it were no more than in purpose had by him , it was no otherwise , then all the elect had it before the world was , therefore he had it in actual possession with peculiar imbracing and delight , as john . . and . . prov. . . . there is no place of scripture , wherein such an expression of our having , as here , is meant of having only by gods purpose for the future in predestination . the giving , john . . is not to be understood of an intention for the future , but a present actual collation . the giving , tim. . . of grace is not meant of gods purpose but donation according to his purpose , which donation was by grant , or promise as it is expressed , tit. . . where and tim. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not well rendered before the world began , but before the times of ages , noting the times of the ages following the creation , and should be so rendered , rom. . . as the parallel places , ephes. . . col. . . do shew , and so the giving of the grace , tim. . . is most likely meant of the promise made , gen. . . as dr. twisse conceives vindic. grat . l. . part . . sect . . digress . . c. . however though the grace of god might be said to be given in gods purpose , yet not christ be said to have had glory in gods purpose , because giving notes only the act of the donor , but having the act of the possessour , cor. . . the having a building not made with hands , cannot be meant of having in gods purpose , for it is consequent on the dissolving of the earthly house of this tabernacle , to which , having in gods purpose is antecedent , and therefore notes actual possession , the present tense being put for the future , as grotius rightly notes , heb. . . the having , cannot be meant of having in god's purpose , it being having in your selves , or your selves , and therefore must be understood of possession for the future , by the same enallage , or of right , or assurance for the present , or of present possession , though not full possession , john . . & . . john . , . believers are said to have eternal life , not by predestination only , afore the person is in being , but by real actual possession , inchoate and continued , though not consummate , as appears by the expressions iohn . . and cometh not into condemnation , but is passed from death into life , john . . we know that we have passed from death to life , opposite to verse . we know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him , and john . . shall not see life , but the wrath of god abideth on him , pet. . . shews not what christ had , but how he was fore-known , revel . . . from the beginning of the world may as well or better be joyned to written as it is revel . . . than to s●ain , iohn . . doth not prove , that christ had the glory mentioned , verse . only in purpose before the foundation of the world , but rather the contrary . for the love there is a love not onely of benevolence , but also of complacency and delight , as iohn . . and . . prov. . . and so supposeth his being before the world was , and the possession of his glory , which he now desires to repossess ; which cannot be his divine essence , for that he was never emptied of , nor his humane excellency , for that he had not in being before the world was ; but the state and condition of a son , of which he emptied himself , taking the form of a servant , phil. . . that riches which he had before he became poor for our sake , cor. . . which was not the relation of sonship to god , for that he still had in his lowest debasement , but the enjoyment of the pleasure he had with his father in his presence , which was in some sort with-held from his person while he was on earth , and the exercise of command and empire over angels afore the world was compleated ( if the angels were created in any of the former daies of the first creation ) and which he now laid aside , and was to pray to his father for the angels ministry ; either of which , or any other ( which we know not of ) communicable in its proportion to our condition with him , according to the words , iohn . , may be the glory which he prayes for , iohn . . to repossesse , and enjoy with his father after the finishing of the work he gave him to do on earth , verse . into which he came to glorifie his father , humbling himself therein really , and therefore would be really re-glorified with his father 's own self ; and not only in manifestation to men , as he had it really with him before the world was . sect . . col. . , , , , , . is urged to prove the god-head of christ. to those foregoing texts in the gospel of st. iohn , i shall next adjoyn the words of the apostle paul , colos. . , , . , , . where he mentions his thanksgiving to the father , who had translated the colossians into the kingdom of his dear son , or of his love , who is the image of the invisible god , the first-born of every creature . for in or by him were all things created that are in heaven , and that are in earth , visible and invisible , whether they be thrones , or dominions , or principalities , or powers ; all things were created by him , and for him , and he is before all things , and by him all things consist . whence i thus argue : he who is the son of the fathers love , the image of the invisible god , the first-born of every creature , in or by whom all things were created that are in heaven , and that are in earth visible and invisible , whether they be thrones or dominions , or principalities or powers , by whom , and for whom all things were created , who is before all things , and by whom all things consist , was before any creature , was made , begotten of the substance of his father , not made of nothing ; very god of very god , of the same substance with the father , by whom all things were made . but such was jesus christ : therefore , &c. the minor is the express words of the text : but the major proposition is denied : and for a reason of the denial , it is said ; . that he is termed the image of the invisible god , not as a child that is begotten by natural generation is the substantial image of his father of the same substance ; but as he resembles god in his wisdom and power , and excellent holiness of life ; wonderful revelation of the mysteries of his counsel , and the great works he did , as the man , in respect of his superiority and authority over the woman , is said to be the image and glory of god , cor. . . or as dr. hammond's paraphrase is , in whom god who is invisible is to be seen , and his will clearly declared by the gospel ( so that ●e that seeth him , seeth the father , joh. . . ) which is confirmed by the words following , ver . , . believest thou not that i am in the father , and the father in me ? the words that i speak unto you , i speak not of my self , but the father that dwelleth in me , he doth the works : believe me that i am in the father , and the father in me ; or else believe me for the very works sake : which words make christ to be in the father , and the father in him , whereby the father is to be seen , and so he is his image , in his words and works . conformable to the same sense are the words of christ , iohn . , , , &c. . that he is termed the first-born of every creature , and therefore is of the rank of creatures , as the first-born is taken , heb. . . as man , the first-born among many brethren , rom. . . or as it is rev. . . the first-born from the dead , and the prince of the kings of the earth . the first ( saith grotius annot . on the place ) in the creation , to wit , the new , of which , cor. . . rev. . . heb. . . more amply dr. hammond in his annot . on col. . . saith thus : the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , beside the ordinary notion of first-born ( which cannot so well here refer to christs eternal generation , because of that which is added to it , the first-born of every greature , which only gives him a precedence before all other creatures , and doth not attribute eternity to him ) is used sometimes for a lord , or person in power , who hath the priviledge of the first-born , dominion over all his brethren , and according to this notion ' ●is used commonly in scripture , for a prince , or principal person , so psal. . . david is called the first-born of the kings of the earth , i. e. the most glorious among them ; and job . . we have the first-born of death . and so among the civilians , haeres , heir , signifies dominus , lord , justinian instit. l. . tit . . de hae●●d . qualit . & diffe . § . ult . and thus may it fitly be a title of christ in●arnate , in respect of his power over his church , the key of the house of david is laid upon him : but it is possible it may peculiarly refer to his resurrection , in which he was the first-born from the dead , verse . the first which from the grave was raised and exalted to heaven , and being so risen , all power was given unto him , in heaven and in earth . . that thrones and dominions , principalities and powers , th●ngs visible and invisible , in heaven and earth ; all things may be meant of jews and gentiles : these several titles here rehearsed , saith dr. hammond annot. on col. . . may possibly be no more but the expressions of several degrees of dignity among men ; so thrones may denote kings , or monarchs and princes , dominions ( or lordships ) may be the reguli , the honours ( whether of dukes or earls ) next under princes ; principalities , the praefects of provinces and cities ; and powers , inferiour magistrates ; and if so , then may they be here set down to denote all sorts and conditions of men in the gentile world , by the chief dignities among them here on earth . and annot. on col. . . and in the like phrase verse . all things that are in the heavens , and on the earth , shall signifie no more than what is in other places expressed by the world , as cor. . . the creation , the whole creation , or all creatures , the whole world of creation , or the whole world without restriction , which signifie all the gentile world in opposition to the jewish enclosure ; not all the creatures absolutely , but all men of all nations . . that verse . is to be understood of the new creation mentioned , cor. . . ephes. . , . and . . and . . jam. . . the things which go before , saith grotius annot. ad col. . . shew these things meant of christ , which is the name of a man ; more rightly is [ were created ] here interpreted were ordained , go● a certain new state ; angels to men , men among themselves were reconciled under christ ; others that angels were reformed as being brought to a new state of acknowledging the lord jesus christ as their lord , and acting at his beck as being gods instrument for the bringing of that reformation to pass , and therefore it is said they were all created in him and by him , as the mediate cause . . that christ is said to be before all things , is meant of the new creation , and that in respect of dignity , not of time. . that in him all the new creation consists , or are reformed . sect . . the proof of christs god-head from col. . , , , , , . is vindicated from exceptions . . i reply , it is true that in respect of other resemblances than of his father's person according to his d●vine nature christ might be termed the image of the invisible god , yet in this place he is not said to be the image of the invisible god in respect of his office as declaring his counsel , or representing his power and holy qualities by his conversation and works ; but as adam's son is said to be begotten in his own likeness after his image , gen. . . may be proved by these reasons . . because his being the image of god is an●ecedent to the creation ; verse . therefore he was the image of the invisible ▪ god before it , and consequently , in respect of his divine nature . . what christ was to his church is expressed after ver . , . therefore v. . , . what he was and did in respect of his divine nature , it being not to be conceived that he would repeat that ver . , , . which he had said before , ver . , , . . an embassadour , though he represents his princes counsels , yet is not said to be his image , an image being a resemblance of a person , not of his counsels . . it is not said , that christ was the image of the invisible god to us , but is the image of the invisible god absolutely and simply even then when he was not on earth to declare gods will , and therefore shews what he is in himself throughout all generations . no● is it of any force which is urged : that because he is said to be the image of the invisible god , therefore he must be a visible image ; fo● man that was made after the image of the invisible god , and is renewed after his image , as ephes. . . col. , . is not after gods image in respect of any visible resemblance , but in respect of wisdom , holiness and righteousness of truth , which are invisible qualities . . if the reading which isidor pelusiota insists on epist. l. , epist. . be right , that it should be read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the first bringer forth of every creature , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the first-born of every creature , which may seem probable , because it is said verse . for by him were all things created , and so it should note not passively his birth , but actively his causality , in which he is said to be the beginning of the creation of god , rev. . . where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 princip●um , or the beginning notes not termination of time , or initiation , but signifies ●fficiency ; as when we say from the latins , the principle of a thing . as col. . . the word is used ( of which more may be seen in sixtin●s amama antibarb . biblic . l. . ) the answer were easie , that though he be said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet he is not in the rank of creatures , which the arians did object from this place . but however erasmus like it , yet beza rejects it , for reasons set down by him , annot. ad col. . . which though they be not all allowed by heinsius exercit. sacr . l. . c. . yet the reading not agreeing with most copies , nor necessary , that answer is not to be insisted on . that other sense which beza and others embrace , [ he is said to be the first-born of every creature ; that is , he that was born before any creature , conceiving in answer to the hebrew verb , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it may be as well applied to the fathers generation as the mothers bearing , and so it be all one , as the begotten before all th● creatures ] would pass for current , if there were an example of so using the word as including the preposition governing the genitive case , and referring to the fathers act of generation : in which methinks there should not be much difficulty , sith james ▪ . . the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we render hath begotten , and is the act of the father of lights , verse . and so notes the fathers act of generation usually , and most properly signifies the act of the mother bringing forth , who is said therefore to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , luke . . when she is great with child , and is used james . . as of the same sense with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , bringeth forth and so rendered . and when christ is said , col. . . to be the first-born from the dead , or revel . . . the first-begotten of , or from the dead , the act of the father in raising him from the dead is implied , to which his resurrection is ascribed , acts . , . and . . and . . and . . and . . rom. . . cor. . . ephes. . . gal. . . and herein st. paul doth in some sort place his ●egetting of christ , when he said , acts. . , . god hath fulfilled the promise made unto the fathers unto us their children , in that he hath raised up jesus again ; as it is also written in the second psalm , thou ar● my son , this day have i begotten thee . and although the preposition from , be in those places because of the change or translation from the dead , yet the term first noting priority must needs include also the preposition before , as it doth manifestly , john . . so that it is easie to conceive this to be the meaning , he was the first begotten before all the creation , or every creature , and therefore the image of the invisible god , and he by whom , and for whom all things were created ; which cannot be meant of his rising from the dead , sith that is mentioned ver . . and this title is put before his creating of all things , ver . . and as the reason of it : but must be meant of his generation before all times out of the substance of the father , by which eternity is given to him , the precedency in being before all the creation , being in scripture language all one with eternity . and so christ will not be put in the rank of creatures made out of nothing , but the word is to be taken negatively , as the word first applied to god , revel . . . which is expounded , isa. . . i am the first , and i am the last , and besides me there is no god , or isa. . . before me there was no god formed , neither shall there be after me . and when the law appointed the first-born male to be gods , exod. . . numb . . . by the first-born was understood that which opened the womb though no other were born after , as the mother of christ understood the law , luke . , . who is called her first-born , notwithstanding she had-no other , mat. . . but if this exposition of the title [ the first born of every creature ] be not received , but that it note only christs dominion or inheritance of every creature , yet will this sense prove his generation before all creatures , and his being exempt from the rank of creatures , sith the reason of his being the first-born of every creature , and so lord or heir of them , is ver . . because by him and for him they were all created , which must needs prove that he is not one of the creatures , sith he created all things , therefore not himself created , and he must needs have a being before every creature by whom , all were created , and confequently was begotten before all time . nor can this title be applied to christ as man or incarnate as if it , noted that he was first in the new creation or ▪ in respect of his power over his church : for ▪ john baptist , luke . . was before him in the new creation in time , and it is no● said he was designed or appointed to be the first-born of every creature , but that he is the first-born , not made the first-born of them , but he by whom all were created ; nor can the church peculiarly be meant by every creature , or the new creation , sith it is not said of the creation , or of the new creation , but of every creature , even those that are invisible , as verse . shews ; and therefore he cannot be said to be the first-born of every creature as the first-born of man is , because the angels are some of the creatures , verse . but not of the same kind with man. . that by thrones , and dominions , and principalities and powers , verse . are not meant several degrees of dignity among men , and no more , may appear , not only as dr. hammond saith , because they may also signifie the several degrees of angels , and because there follows mention of visible and invisible , and the angels may most probably be contained by the latter of them , as this lower world of men by the former , and because it is the creation that is here referred t● , and the creating of angels as well as men , &c. belongs truely to christ as god , therefore it will be most reasonable in this place to interpret it in the greater extent to comprehend angels and men too , the highest and most eminent of both sorts : but also because it is necessary for these reasons . . because these terms do elsewhere signifie in the same apostles writings , invisible beings , powers of the world to come , ephes. . . principal●ties and powers in heavenly places , ephes. . . spiritual beings in high or heavenly places , opposed to flesh and blood , ephes. . . angels , principalities and powers , are reckoned among the most potent beings of most force to separate us from the love of god , rom. . . angels , and authorities and powers are said to be subject to christ now on the right-hand of god , pet. . . nor can the spoiling of principalities and powers be understood otherwise than as dr. hammond's own paraphrase of col. . . explains it , of devesting the evil spirits of their power , grotius annot. ad eph. . . intelligunt quidam de imperiis terrenis . sed locus col. . . & quod in his infra est , . . evincit agi hic de eximiis angelorum clasibus . similis ordinum distinctio etiam in satanae regn● infra , . . cor. . . rom. . . . if by them angels were not meant , there should be no invisible beings said to be created , col. . . whereas the distributive particle [ whether ] is put next after invisible , to shew the thrones , dominions , principalities , powers to be invisible beings . . several degrees of dignity and rule among men , neither in this epistle , nor elsewhere , are said to be things in heaven , or invisible . . angels may be said to be reconciled , col. . . and gathered together into one with the church , ephes. . . christs blood reconciling the gentiles to god by expiating their idolatry , and so reducing them to god , and thereby to the good angels , who rejoyce at their conversion , luke . , , observe their order in their church meetings , cor. . . are their angels , mat. . . but it could not be said in s. paul's time , when he wrote to the colossians , that the rulers on earth were created by , and for christ , that is , reformed and made new creatures in christ , they were not brought to the obedience of the gospel by christ , but were enemies to it , acts . . cor. . . james . , ▪ nor were they ordered by christ according to the meaning of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by us translated ordinance , heb. . . pet. . . that is , constituted or appointed by christ as mediatour in order to his church for their help , in st. paul's time ; and therefore cannot be said to be created in the sense some would expound creation , col. . . and meant by thrones , dominions , principalities and powers . . hence also may appear that no other sense but of the creation at first out of nothing , can be rightly meant by the creating , col. . . for the words are general , including all things simply , and that twice expressed , which shews it comprehends all things universally that were created ; and left any thing should be excepted , there 's a threefold division . . of things in heaven , and things on the earth . . of visible and invisible . . of the invisible thrones , dominions , principalities , and powers . of which principalities , the unclean spirits are a part , col. . . ephes. . . who cannot be said to be reformed , or constituted , or appointed by christ in the sense , in which creation is taken , either eph. . . jam. . . 〈◊〉 cor. . , gal. . . or heb. . . pet. . . in the good angels nothing was to be reformed , or new created ; in the evil nothing was , nor were they , o● other things constituted , or ordained by christ as man ; nor is it true , that all things in earth were reformed , or constituted for the church . and for the new creation , which consists in renovation of mind , it was done in many before christs incarnation , ezek. . . psal. . . and therefore that creation cannot be meant , when it is said , all things were created by jesus christ , by them who suppose him not to have been afore his incarnation . lastly , neither is there any place brought by them , by which it may be proved , that the work of creation absolutely put is meant of renovation , or reformation , meant by the new creation : nor do the particles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated by him , prove christ only a mediate or instrumental cause of the creation . for it is said of him , who is the principal cause , rom. . . all things are of him , and by him , and for him , as col. . . and therefore the particles note a principal concurrent or consociate cause : and the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by or through is applied to god the father , gal. . . heb. . . and in is used as by , heb. . . and applied to god , acts . . yet it is not to be denied , that there is a priority in the father to the son in respect of being , not of time , but original , as bishop davenant saith , com. on col. . . christ hath principium originis , a beginning of original , to wit , his father from whom he was begotten , but not a beginning of time , or to use dr. pearsons words in his exposition of the first article of the creed , p. . of the second edition , the father hath that essence of himself , the son by communication from the father . from whence he acknowledgeth that he is from him , john . . that he liveth by him , john . . that the father gave him to have life in himself , and generally referreth all things as received from him ; so as that the father is by the antients termed the fountain , root , authour , origin , head , cause of the son and the whole divinity , p. . whence the son is termed in the nicene creed ; god of god , very god of very god , light of light , and this origination in the divine paternity , hath antiently been looked upon as the assertion of the unity : and therefore the son and holy ghost have been believed to be but one god with the father , because both from the father , who is one , and so the union of them . for if there were more than one , which were from none it could not be denied , but there were more gods than one , p. . and answerably here●o there is an order in the operations of the father and the son , so as that there is a priority , if not in some sense a majority in the father , whom some of the antients , cited by dr. pearson , p. . understand to be greater than christ as the son of god , john . . with reference not unto his essence , but his generation , by which he is understood to have his being from his father , who only hath it of himself , and is the original of all power and essence in the son , and consequently some preheminence in working ▪ whence christ saith , i can of mine own self do nothing ; the son can do nothing of himself , but what he seeth the father do : for what things soever he doth , these also doth the son likewise , which intimate a priority of order in the fathers operation , if not a dependance of the son on him therein . and so as mr. gataker in his advers . mis●el . c. . saith from col. . . christ both in making the world , as also in instructing his church is said to exhibit ministery to god the father , and the father by him to have performed and to perform both those things , heb. . . in which place he is said to have spoken to his people 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by his son , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by whom also he made the worlds . . christs priority in dignity is expressed before verse . where he is said to be the first-born of every creature , and in respect of the church , vers . . where he is termed the head of the body the church , that in a 〈…〉 things he might have the preheminence : therefore he is said to be before all things , ver . . in time , and that not only before angels , but all things created , it being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the same latitude with all things , v. . and that not only in the new creation , for so he was not in time before david , psal. . . john baptist , who was filled with the holy ghost even from his mothers womb , luke . . but in respect of the first creation . . the consistence of all things by christ , is to be understood of all things created , ver . . and not only things belonging to the new creation , and of a consistence by sustaining and preserving all things simply by his power and providence , as it is said , pet. . 〈◊〉 . by the word of god the heavens were of old , and the earth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 consisting , which is no where meant of evangelical reformation , but of powerful sustentation , as heb. . , . to which i pass sect . heb. . , , , , , , , , , , , are urged to prove the assertion of christs god-head . the same articles of faith concerning christ are confirmed from heb. . where christ distinct from the prophets , is termed the son of god , whom he appointed heir of all things , by whom also he made the worlds , verse . . being the brightness of his glory , and the express image of his person , and upholding all things by the word of his power , verse . by so much being more excellent , or better than the angels , by how much he inherited a more excellent name than they , verse . of whom god said that which he said not of the angels , thou art my son , this day have i begotten thee ; and again , i will be to him a father , and he shalt be to me a son ; and again , when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world , he saith , and let all the angels of god worship him , verse , . unto the son , or of the son he saith , thy throne o god is for ever and ever : a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom , thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity ; therefore god even thy god hath annointed thee with the oyl of gladness above thy follows : and thou lord , in the beginnings hast laid the foundation of the earth ; and the heavens are the work of thy hands : they shall perish , but thou remainest , they all shall wax old as doth a garment , and as a vesture shalt thou sold them up , and they shall be changed , but thou art the same , and thy years shall not fail . but to which of the angels said he at any time , sit on my right hand , until i make thine enemies thy foot-stool ? verse , , , , , . whence i argue , he , of whom all these things are said , was before any creature was made , begotten of the substance of the father , not made of nothing , very god , of the same substance with the father , by whom all things were made : but of jesus christ all these things are said , therefore , &c. the minor proposition is the express words of the text , but the major is denied ; and as a reason of the denial , it is said . . that christ is said to be the son , the first-begotten , this day begotten in respect of his incarnation , resurrection , exaltation as before . . that he was the brightness of his glory , ray or beam of gods majesty , that in christ men might have a kind of sight of gods majesty , that he was the express image of his person in respect of his qualities resembling his father , the latter words interpreting the former . for god did as it were imprint his person on christ , that christ might be his substitute upon earth to personate , represen● and resemble the person of god ; to be in wisdom as god , by publishing the mysteries and secrets of god , and by knowing the thoughts of men , and discovering them ; to be in holiness as god without all stain of sin , to be in power as god , having dominion over all gods creatures , over winds , seas , devils . . that he was brought into the world , not as being before the world , but being in the world was sent as the great prophet of the church among men , or at his resurection he was raised from the dead , and brought into the world , or it is to be applied to his great exaltation at the last day , when he shall be brought into the world to come , as it is termed , heb. . . which refers to heb. . . and so without trajection the word [ again ] shall be read as it stands in the greek text , and the verb of the second aorist of [ bringing into ] be read as of the future time , not as the vulgar , beza , our translation , of the time past , and [ again ] noting another citation out of the psalms : and therefore mr. mede in his opus●ula latina in answer to ludovicus de dieu , would have our english version corrected thus [ and when he bringeth again the first-begotten into the world ] or shall bring , &c. for what things are from thence cited out of the book of psalms to the end of the chapter [ concerning the adoration of angels , the scepter of the rectitude of god , the changing the world , the treading of enemies under his feet ] all , if we believe the apostle , are to be referred to the second coming of christ. to which agree cameron resp . ad quaest . in heb. . . heinsius exercit . sac . l. . c. . dr. homes resur . revealed . l. . c. . &c. . that he inherited or possessed a more excellent name than the angels by grant from his father , being appointed heir of all things , not by vertue of his generation before the world , but because of his office , by reason of which the angels were to worship him , as peter did christ as man , luke . . and all the disciples , luke . . . that he was god by office , and not by nature ; as it appears in that god is said to be his god , he to be annointed by god with the oyl of gladness , and others his fellows , ver . , . . grotius would have , ver . . read , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for whom , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by whom ; but if it be to be read by whom , it is meant of the new world , not of the heavens and earth , or ages , or times of this world : and v. , , . are but accommodated to him in respect of his dissolving the world , and duration of his kingdom , not in respect of the eternity of his person , or operation in the first creation . . that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is translated upholding is to be translated ruling with the word , that is at the command of his father , mannaging all things as personating his father , and following his command . gr 〈…〉 in his annotation on the place , saith thus : the manuscripts in which those grammatical spirits are distinguished , have also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( his , the fathers , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his own , as we read it ) and so reads cyril in his th . against julian ; the sense is , christ governs all things by the word of his fathers power ( that is command ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is often to govern , and which chrysostom here adds , with some easiness . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 appears to be put for command , luke . . and heb. . . so also kings . . more to the same purpose hath heinsius exercit. sacr . l. . c. . and dr. hammond in his annot . on heb. . . the hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies two things , fero to bear , and rego to rule , and from the latter of them it is , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the ordinary word for a prince ; agreeably to this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] which is sometimes the rendering of the hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as numb . . . deut. . . may accordingly signifie , to rule , to govern , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to administer , as a commander , or governour , or procurator of a province , and so 't is here taken , to denote the regal power of christ , to which he is advanced by his resurrection . . that verse . is spoken of christ as man exalted to sit on gods ●igh●-hand . sect . . the argument from heb. . , , , , , , , , , , . is vindicated from exceptions . to the first i reply , that none of those reasons are sufficient to verifie the titles given to christ , rom. . . where he is termed gods own son 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 proper or peculiar to him . john . . his only begotten son , and here the son , verse . as is before shewed sect. in reply to the th . exception : by the same arguments the reasons also of the nameless authour of the commentary on the epistle to the hebrews , intituled the expiation of a sinner are shewed to be short of what the appellation of the first-born or first-begotten , heb. . . imports , whereof the first is , christ is the first-begotten son of god , because god begot him before all his other sons , who are called the brethren of christ ; for god first begot christ , in that manner wherein god is said to beget sons ; for those he begets whom he assimilates and makes like unto himself , and so christ was the first that was assimilated , or made like unto god in holiness ; in such holiness as he require in the new covenant . i reply . . this reason is given without proof , and if allusion be to rom. . . neither is it said there that christ is the first-born by reason of his assimilation to god in holiness before others , nor is the image of christ , to which others are conformed , expressed to be in qualities , it is more likely to be in estate and condition , to wit , of glory . . nor is it true , that christ in this respect is the first-begotten , john baptist was before him made like unto god in such holiness as he requires in the new covenant , he was great in the sight of the lord , and filled with the holy ghost , even from his mothers womb , luke . . that i omit to say any thing of abraham , david , mary , simeon , anna , &c. . secondly , saith he , christ is the first-begotten of god by his resurrection , because by the power of god he was raised and brought in again from death to an immortal life ; for which he is called the first begotten from the dead , and the first fruits of them that slept , cor. . . i reply . . it is true , christ is said to ●e the first-born , or begotten from the dead , col. . . revel . . . but heb. . . he is termed the first-begotten simply without relation to the dead , and col. . . the first-born of every creature , and the reason thereof is , because all things were created by him , verse . . if this reason were sufficient , enoch might as well be termed the first-begotten , of whom the scripture saith , heb. . . by faith enoch was translated that he should not see death , and was not found , because god had translated him ; for before his translation he had this testimony that he pleased god. lastly , saith he , he is the first-begotten in all things , whereby the faithful of christ become the sons of god : for christ hath preceded them all , that ( as st. paul speaks ) he in all things might have the preheminence , col. . . i reply . . what those all things are , in which christ preceded all the faithful , whereby they become the sons of god , is not expressed , not do i think he can give an instance distinct from his holiness , and resurrection , except his preaching or fulness of the spirit ; wherein and in other things it is true , christ exceeded all the faithful of christ ; but no where is he said to be begotten , or the first-begotten by reason hereof , or any other thing besides his generation before the world : sure col. . . there is no such thing said ; though it be true that he is said to be the head of the body the church , who is the beginning , the first-born from the dead , that in all things , or among all he might have the preheminence ; yet not that therefore he is the first-begotten , but he is termed ver . . the first-born of every creature ; and the reason is given , ver . , . because all things were created by him and for him , and he is before all things , and by him all things consist ; which she 〈…〉 s his generation before the creation , and so no time wherein he was not . the reasons of christs son-ship from the begetting him the day of his incarnation , luke . . his sanctification , john . . his resurrection , acts . . his having all power in heaven and earth given him , mat. . . his exaltation to be an immortal and universal potentate ; though they may be reasons of his appellation [ the son of god ] as shewing it , and being consequent on it , yet there is an higher reason shewed before , and confirmed from the titles given him , heb. . . . the term [ the brightness of glory ] doth not express what christ was to others as a looking-glass ; that had been better expressed by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , than 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but what he was in himself , and from whom , to wit , his father , as the beam from the sun. and in the same term wisdom is termed in the book intituled the wisdom of solomon , ch . . . the brightness of the everlasting light , the unspotted myrror of the power of god , and the image of his goodness : and thence it is to be conceived that in the nicene creed christ is termed light of light : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , saith sr. norton kna●chbul in his animad version on heb. . . is as it were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in phavorinus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the shining out brightness , or splendor , relucency , or as it were beam of gods glory , that is his substance , nature , or being , who is light , john. . . and glory is often put for light , cor. . . mat. . . compared with luke . . pet. . . which shews that he is said to be the brightness passively as receiving it from his father , and brightness of his glory , as having his glory communicated to him ; not actively , as shining to others : and the same is to be conceived of his being the character of his person passively , as having it engraven on him , not ingraving it on others . the metaphor is most likely to be from a seal of a ring or some other thing by which there is an ingraving of a figure . now we shall best understand what is meant here by it , if we know what it is that is meant by his hypostasis , and when it was that he was the character of it : the word comes from a verb that signifies to stand under , or to be settled , and so notes some settled thing , that doth not flinch or vanish , opposed to emphasis or appearance , as aristotle in his book of the world ( if it be his ) so the cloud is said to be an hypostasis , the bow in the cloud but an appearance . physitians use it for the sediment , or that which settles in the bottom , as in urine , for the consistence , state or concretion of humours that should be purged . in the greek of the old testament it hath many significations , as deut. . . your burden is your hypostasis . deut. . . job . . that which we read substance , that is goods , is in greek hypostasis : a military station , rendered by us a garrison , is in aquila's translation , saith grot. annot. ad ▪ reg. . . hypostasis . in the psalms it hath various acceptions , as psal. . . my age , verse . my hope . psal. . . there is no standing . gr. hypostasis . psal. . . remember how short my time is , gr. what my hypostasis is . ps. . . the lxx . reading as it is likely , instead of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which we render was curiously wrought , the word signifying to be wrought with a needle , either , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as grotius conceives , or as to me seems likely , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , have rendered it by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . nahum . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . latin et substantia mea , and my substance . in the new testament it is onely cor. . . and . . where it is rendered by this confidence , that is , subsistence , settledness , or fi●mitude , which being applied to the mind , notes confidence , unshaken boldness , or security , heb. . . where we read the beginning of our confidence , used as it is likely , as in the greek , psalm . . . heb. . . where it is rendered the substance of things hoped for , by others , the ground , or confidence , i conceive , the assurance or security meant by it : and here , heb. . . in none of which places , or any other that i can find , hypostasis signifies wisdom , power , and holiness , of a person ; and therefore i see not how it can be expounded the character of his hypostasis , that is the resemblance of his fathers attributes , or his supremacy or soveraign majesty ; but that he is as it were the print , impression , stamp , or as we translate it , express image of his person , or subsistence , or substance , which comes nearest to the use of the word , as it is in the greek version , psal. . . and that by reason of his being his son by whom he made the worlds ; which will be better understood by considering when he was the brightness of his glory , and the express ▪ image of his person : the participle we translate [ being ] cannot be expounded of being such consequently to his sitting on the right hand of the majesty in the heights , but antecedently thereunto , and to his bearing or upholding all things by the word of his power in order of nature at least , and to his purging our sins in time ; which appears , . from the order of the words , he is first said to be the brightness of glory , the character of his person , next to bear all things by the word of his power , than to have purged our sins by himself , and then to have sate on the right hand of the majesty on high , therefore he was a●●ecedently to all the rest the brightness of glory , and character of his person . . the connexion between being the character of his person , and up-holding all things by the copulative particle shews these were together , but the up-holding all things was before his sitting on the right hand , therefore also the being the character of his person . . then he was the character of his person when he purged our sins , but that was before his sitting on the right hand , therefore also was his being the character of his person . . from the use of the participle which is to be interpreted , either of the present or past time , as heb. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 although he were , philem. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being such with many more : whence it follows that these things cannot be said of christ as man , ●ith as such he up-held not all things by the word of his power , but of his divin● excellency in which he is a radiature from god , and is the character or print of his person , before his ascention , or executing his office on earth : besides the titles are so transcendent as exceed the excellency of the angels , and therefore express the divine nature : and the emphasis is put in them that being so excellent he purged our sins ; and if he had been termed the brightness of glory , and character of his fathers person , only in executing the office of mediatour , and representing god to us by his preaching , no more had been said , than was verse . that god had spoken to us by his son , and might be said of some of the prophets , specially moses who did reveal gods mind to the people of israel , with whom god spake face to face , his face did shine and was glorious , represented gods majesty , power , wisdom , goodness in bringing israel out of egypt , doing miracles , whence he is said to be made a god to pharaoh , exod. . . . notwithstanding the opinion of so learned men , yet i conceive the bringing into the world is not a thing fu●ure to be done at the last day for these reasons . . because if the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 migh be expounded as of the future time ( the contrary whereof seems true to me ) yet the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith must be expounded of a time past , and the sense be this , when he did bring his first-begotten into the world he said ; and let all the angels of god worship him . . because a determination or purpose concerning a thing future had not been a fit argument to prove his present meliority or superiority above angels . . if it had been meant of a future bringing into the world i conceive he would have said , into the world to come , as he speaks , heb. . . and . . . because where he u●eth the like expression , though not the same words , to wit , heb. . . when he cometh into the world he saith , it is meant of the time when he had a body prepared for him , which was at his birth : for which reason , and because we find not any mention of the angels of god worshipping after his resurrection , as we find done , luke . . it is ●o be applied to the time of his birth ; and if it be objected that he was not to be worshipped by the angels till his exalting at the right hand of god , as rev. . , . the contrary is to be held , ●ith the wise-men , mat. . . peter , luke . . the apostles , mat. . . luke . . worshipped christ ; and no doubt but the angels did and were to do the like . as for the words heb. . . that they referre to heb. . . and so heb. . . meant of the world to come , because no where else had he spoken of the world to come , i conceive they do not evince what is gathered from them . . because he doth not say , heb. . . of which we have , but of which we do speak . . if he did say , of which we have spoken , it might very well refer to heb. . . which mentions the change of the heavens and earth , which are the same thing with the world to come , though the same word be not used in both places : for which reasons i conceive it better to make a transposition in the word again , and to expound the words thus ; again he saith , when he did bring his first-begotten into the world , using again as he did verse . to express another citation ; nevertheless , were mr. medes reading yielded , it must shew a former bringing into the vvorld , and so a being of christ afore his coming into the world , and consequently his being the son of god begotten before the world began . . it is true christ had a more excellent name by grant as appointed heir of all things , yet was not the son of god because heir of all things , but heir of all things because his son , by whom he made the worlds , v. . . which is the reason also given , col. 〈◊〉 . , . as the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because shews : it is true the angels were to worship christ , because of his office , and his exaltation , yet not barely because of his office and exaltation , but also because of his generation , as the son of god , and the union of his two natures in one person , by reason of which he was worshipped afore his resurrection , mat. . . in his minority . . jesus christ is not termed god in respect of his office , but nature , as being the son of god the creatour , by whom he made the worlds , ver . . and in respect of his generation , god the father is said to be his god , and he god of god , as in the nicene creed . and being made a man was anointed , and other men were his fellows , or partakers with him , though not in the same measure as he , who had the spirit without measure , job . ● . . grotius his change is without any warrant of copy or example , and therefore is too bold an alteration to be allowed ; nor had the apostles assertion of christ , that for him he made the worlds , been so full to his purpose to set out christs excellency , as to say , that by him he made the worlds : besides , sith col. . . it is said , by him were all things created , and for him , and that made the reason of his being the first-born of every creature , ver . . it is in like manner to be conceived , heb. . . that 〈◊〉 appointed his son heir of all things , because by him he made the worlds : by the worlds is not meant the future world , or blessed immortality , not the making them , the renewing of them ; but the worlds signifie either the frame of heaven and earth at first creation , or the times and generations of men , and their making the creating at the beginning of time , or the forming and continuing of them in their successions . the former sense of making heaven and earth , and their inhabitants , as it is confirmed by the parallel place , col. . . so it is put out of doubt by the words of the same authour , heb. . . by faith we understand that the worlds ( the word used , heb. . . ) were framed by the word of god , so that things which are seen were not made of things appearing , which doth evidently refer to gen. . , . and heb. . . the end of the worlds , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is opposed to the foundation of the world ; and in conformity to this sense 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 john . . is as much as from the beginning of the world : nor can it be meant of a future world , sith the word of making notes a thing already done , and to say he made that which was not yet in being , or which was not yet made , had been to say , that he made that which he did not make , and to say , he made by him the worlds , if he were not then existent had been to say he made the worlds by a not being ; nor can it be shewed that making , that it have various senses , is put for revealing , or that said to be made , which is only made known . heb. . , , . are a testimony cited concerning christ , as verse . the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 unto , or of the son , shew as v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he saith of the angels , and the copulative conjunction 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 verse . shews it to be a distinct testimony from the former , and the words cited together shew all meant of christ ▪ ifs the latter part of them belong to christ it follows , that also the former belongs to him : for it belongs to the same person and power which dissolves or changeth the heavens to lay the foundation of them : nor is there an instance produced either , mat. . , , , , . or acts . , , , , . in which words are cited , whereof part only belong to the matter for which they are cited , although mat. . . alone had fitted the occasion ; nor are there , or any where else words cited as spoken part of one person , part of another , as they would have them , who use this evasion : nor are the words , heb. . , , . cited only to prove ver . . that christ was made so much better tha● the angels , as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they ; but to prove , that by him god made the worlds , verse . nor can there be good sense in making the first part , verse . to be directed to god , and the other ver . , . of christ , when it is the same lord who is spoken to ver . , , . nor can that which is spoken of an eternal duration , à parte antè , on the part before , as well as à parte post , the part after , be applied only to the duration of his kingdom which is only eternal à parte post , on the part after , and which is also to be resigned to the father , cor. . . . grotius is still too bold to put 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his meaning the fathers word or power , instead of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his own , me●ning the son without any extant copies named by him , and clean against the apostles scope to set out christs excellency : now to rule at his fathers command had noted his obedience , and subserviency , not his excellency ; for so do all holy angels and good magistrates , they rule at gods command : nor is the expression , suitable to his sense : if he had meant , as grotius conceives the sense , he should have said , ruling all things at the command of his fathers authority 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , rather than 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 power , and not have said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the word ; which notes the means of effecting , as heb. . . but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to his word , as the rule of administration , or as it is luke . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at thy command : besides , heb. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the word of god , notes not a command to the son to do it , but the powerful word to the world , by which it was made , gen. . and the all things he upholds , heb. . . comprehend not only the church , but the world 's made by him , or all creatures , as heb. . , . col. . , must be understood . it is true , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies a prince , nor will i deny that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as grotius , dr. hammond , heinsius exercit . sacr . l. . c. . conceive ) signifies to rule or govern , numb . . . deut. . . yet it signifies not only to govern , or order them , but also to sustain them by provision , as both the occasion of the peoples desire of flesh , and the words of moses , ver . , . [ wherefore host thou affl●cted thy servant ? and wherefore have i not f●und favour in thy sight , that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me ? have i conceived all this people ? have i begotten ( or born , as the greek hath it ) them , that thou shouldest say unto me , carry them in thy bosome ( as a nursing father beareth the sucking child ) unto the land which thou swarest ●●to their fathers ? ] shew ; it is true , deut. . . bearing notes rule , but not it only , but also provision and sustentation , as the words verse . shew ; how can i my self alone bear your ●●mbrance , or wearisom molestation , trouble , as isa. . . and your burden ; greek , and your hypostasis , that is your subsistence or sustentation by provision , and your ●trif● , in greek , your antilogies , gain-sayings or contradictions . and v. . in the wilderness the lord thy god bare thee , as a man doth bear his son , in all the way that ye went until ye came to this place : where saith ainsworth , in his annotation , this word meaneth not the bearing of the body only , but bearing of their infirmities , and suffering the evils and troubles in the education of them , as a father doth in his children which the greek explaineth by etrophophorese a word that paul useth in acts . . where the syriak expoundeth it nourished : or , as some copies have it , etropophorese , he suffered their manners : dr. hammond ann●t ▪ on acts . . carried as a nurse : whence i infer , that if heb. . . the word bearing be used as numb . . . deut. . . yet it doth not signifie meer ruling or ordering the church by wisdom and authority , but up-holding , sustaining , maintaining the worlds , or ages which he made , or all things created by the word of his almighty power , by which they were framed at first , heb. . . which bearing or upholding all things is not limited to the time after christs resurrection , but is antecedent to his death : for so the words are , he by whom god made the worlds , being the brightness of his glory , the character of his subsistence , and bearing all things by the word of his power , having by himself made purgation of our sins , sate at the right ●and of the majesty in the heights : this order of words shews that he was the brightness of glory , and character of gods subsistence , and bare a 〈…〉 things by the word of his power , and made purgation of our sins by himself afore ●e sa●● at the right hand of the majesty or greatness in the heights . . it is true that heb. . . is spoken of christ as man exalted ; yet as christ argued against the pharisees from the same passage of psal. . . ( which the chaldee renders , the lord said unto his word , meaning christ , saith ainsworth annot. ) mat. . , , , . that christ must be a greater person than david's son , because david in spirit calls him lord , and therefore to have an higher nature than himself being then his lord ; so we may argue from heb. . . the scripture proves christ to be lord of angels , because god said , sit thou on my right hand till i make thine enemies thy footstool , therefore he had a nature above angels , and consequently divine : for christ supposeth in that place , that christ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be david's lord , which was not denied , and thereby p●oveth that he must be denied than david , and of another nature than his ▪ ●orasmuch as he that was no more than his son , could not be his lord , the father being superiour to the son in nature , who hath no other nature than what he derive● from himself . sect . . heb ▪ . . is urged to prove the eternal son-ship of christ. to what is said , heb. . i shall add what is said heb. . . concerning me●chizede● , that he is mentioned without father , without mother , without genealogy , that is without speech of his descent or pedigree , neither having beginning of daies , nor end of life ; but made like unto the son of god , remaineth a priest for ever : which intimates , that the son of god , was without father , without mother , without genealogy , neither having beginning of daies , nor end of life , that is , as he was the son of god he was father or mother among me● ▪ in which respect there is no genealogy of him , that he is without beginning of daies , or end of life , therefore he was before any creature was made , begotten of the substance of his father , not made of nothing , very god of the same substance of the father , by whom all things were made : for as the son of man and according to his office he had beginning of daies , and had a mother : nor can the sense be right , that the beginning of daies is meant of the priest-hood of melchizedec , for the other part , nor end of life , is to be expounded of his being , not of his priest-hood ; and therefore also his not having beginning of daies must be meant of his being , as the son of god , not of his priesthood . sect . . christs kingdom is the kingdom of the son of man so termed , according to his excellency above all men . the kingdom we are to seek is termed sometimes the kingdom of the son of man , mat. . . verily i say unto you , there be some standing here , which shall not taste of death , till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom : which title christ often takes to himself , mat. . . whom do men say , that i the son of man am ? and upon this consideration , he hath the kingdom given to him , according to what our lord christ saith , john . . that the father hath given him authority , and to do judgment , because he is the son of man : accordingly , where christ fore-tells his chief act of reg●lity he useth this title , mat. . . when the son of man shall come in his glory , and all the holy angels with him , then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory , and ver . . . terms this son of man the king. whence it is apparent that this title of the son of man is to be considered , that we may have right intelligence of this kingdom . now this title of the son of man may be understood . . as noting him to be a man of the same kind with other men : and in this sense ●he son of man is no more than a man , as numb . . . psal. . . & . . & . . eph. . . &c. in which sense it is conceived , that ezekiel is often spoken to by the title of the son of man , as ezek. . , , , . not importing any excellency above other men , but nature and infirmities common to other men : mr. gataker in his cinnus , l. . c. . whereas it was said by nebuchadnezzar , dan. . . as we read it ; lo●● see four men loose walking in the 〈…〉 idst of the fire , and they have no hurt , and the form of the fourth is like the son of god , it ▪ being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 some will have it translated a son of the gods , as meaning by it an angel , as vers . . or a man of excellency and dignity , who were usually stiled sons of the gods , as psal. . . according to p●gni● , concludes , that according to the profa●e kings mind in our language , if we would rightly render it , we should say , not like the son of god , but like a son of the gods , that is , a person of a most beautiful , and as it were divine form : also in like manner when it is said , daniel . . behold one came with the clouds like the son of man , it is no more than a certain person indued with human● form , and should be termed like a son of man ; not as it is commonly rendered , like the son of man : as if christ were designed man as well as god , as junius in explaining hath noted ; because he is in the new testiment most frequently named the son of man : for how ●ould the form of the son of god , to be represented in our flesh be then set before daniels eyes , that whom he had seen descending from heaven , he should declare him seen as like to him , whom it is not probable that himself foresaw of what shape ●e should be ? for although it may seem in very deed that he was the son of god , whom the prophet had beheld in that vision to have approached to god the father , the ancient of dayes ; yet nevertheless it should not be therefore said he was like to the son of man , to wit christ ; for this had been as if it were said he was like to himself , but like to a son of man , that is to a man , as ezekiel is often termed son of man , and sons of men for men , then which nothing is more frequent . so also the apostle , made in the likeness of men , and found in fashion as a man , philip. . . saving that these things are said of him according to what he was , that according to what was represented . in like sort that of the evangelist john is to be taken , which is rev. . . like to the son of man ; which also the most famous man theodore beza saw , when he turned it , i saw ( some one ) like to a son of man , and in his notes , to a son of man , that is to a man , or who resembled a man ; after the hebrew idiotism . for although he was christ , yet that this is to be taken in general concerning the shape of a man , appears from hence , that the article is not added : also from daniel . . where a vision altogether like is described : so ●e : to which may be added the parallel place respecting the same person in the same book , c● . . ver . one sitting on a cloud like to a son of man , that is a man ▪ . he may be said to be stiled the son of man by excellency , as when the philosopher a common name to many is by excellency appropriated to aristotle , or the orator to cic●ro , or the poet to homer ; in which sense christ is termed the seed of the woman , gen. . . the son of david , mat. . . and . , and in this sense he is termed the second adam , because as the first earthly adam was a common person , comprehending all that from him are propagated by natural generation ; so christ is the second , heavenly adam , cor. . . the second man , verse . because all are comprehended in him , , that are by spiritual regeneration the sons of god. and in this respect it is said , that adam was the type , or figure of him that was to come , rom. . . and hereupon the parallelism of one to the other is made by the apostle , ver . , , , , , . and cor. . , . and all the members of the mystical body termed christ , cor. . . and of christ it is said , ephes. . . that he might make , or create in himself two unto one new man making peace ; which new man is said to be put on , ephes. . . col. . . as elsewhere christ is to be put on , rom. . . gal. . . and christ is said to be all things , and in all , col. . . without discrimination of greek , and jew , circumcision and uncircum●●sion , barbarian , scythian , bond and free , and all the members of christ , when they meet together are a perfect man , according to the measure of the stature of th● fulness of christ , ephes. . . which is expressed to be his body , verse . and this is called the church , which is his body , the f●lness of him that filleth all in all , ephes. . , . in like manner christ is termed the seed of abraham , gal. . . now to abraham and his seed were the promises made ; he saith not , and to his seeds , as concerning many , but as of one ; and to thy seed , who is christ : which is meant of christ personal primarily , and secondarily of christ mystical ; to wit , all believers , who are termed , verse . abraham's children , and verse , , , . ye are all the sons of god through faith in christ jesus : for as many as have been baptized into christ have put on christ : there is neither jew , nor greek , nor is there s●rvant , nor free , nor is there male and female , for ye are all 〈◊〉 one man in christ jesus , and if ye be christs then are ye abraham's seed , and heirs according to the promise . and thus it is more probable to me , that daniel . . is not to be read a son of the gods , to note only a person of a more excellent visage , as the gentiles called men of rare beauty and majesty ; but the son of god , whom he calls the angel , verse . who was known in the church of god by the title of the angel of the covenant , mal. . . the angel of gods presence , isa. . . on which mr. gataker in the annotations of sundry divines in english hath this note : certain it is that this angel here spoken of , is that angel , of whom god spake unto moses , exod. . , . termed both jehovah , exod. . . and . , . and his face or presence , exod. . , . and an angel , exod. . . who that he was no other , than the messias jesus christ , the conducter of them in the wilderness , holy stephen informeth us , acts . . the eternal son of god , the resplendency of his fathers majesty , and exact image of his person , heb. . . in whom therefore his name is said to be , exod. . . he that appeared unto moses in the bush , exod. . . styled jehovah there , verse . and by jacob , the angel that delivered , or rescued him out of all evil , gen. . . and by malachy lastly , jehovah , the angel of the covenant , mal. . . termed an angel , or messenger , in regard of his mediatourship , heb. . . of gods face ; either because he doth exactly resemble god his father , john . , . col. . . or , because he appeareth before the face , or in the presence of god , for us , heb. . . see rom. . . revel . . . this angel secured and safeguarded them all the way thorow the wilderness , from egypt to canaan , deut. . , . and . , . which it 's not unlikely nebuchadnezzar somewhat understood , as well as that god sent an angel to deliver his servants that trusted in him , verse . by daniel , whom god used to reveal to nebuchadnezzar the succession of the four monarchies , whereupon he acknowledged daniels god to be a god of gods , and a lord of kings , and a revealer of secrets , dan. . . and i judg the opinion of cameron in his praelection on mat. . . to be right , that the term son of man , dan. . . notes the messiah , and that the title of son of man is given to him , not as importing any diminution , but his excellency , and that in allusion to that place in daniel , christ , when he speaks of himself , mat. . . mat. . . john . . useth that title of the son of man to shew , that he was meant therein , and that we need not either alter the pointing , as some of the antients , nor make that the reason of committing judgement to him , john . . because he only of the three persons in the holy trinity is man ; as dr. pearson conceives in his exposition of the seventh article of the creed , but that christ intimates , that all judgment was committed to him , because he was the son of man meant dan. . . which is also the opinion of grotius annot. ad johan . evang. c. . . because he is that son of man , of whom daniel foretold , that to him should be given dominion and a kingdom over all nations without end . dan. . , . nor is it of force to enervate this opinion , that it is said , that he who came before the antient of daies , was as the son of man : for the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies not only the likeness of a thing , but also the verity of it , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth , john . . cor. . . and if it should note only likeness and not identity , both there , and revel . . . and . . it should intimate as if he whom daniel and john saw were not christ , but one like him , and so the person to vvhom dominion was given , and the person described should not be christ : but the words being conceived aright , daniel saw christ the son of man in the apparition ; nor is it absurd to say so of daniel , though christ were not then incarnate . for he had by the spirit christ represented to him , as he was to david when in spirit he called him lord , mat. . . and abraham rejoyced to see his day , and saw it , and was glad , john . . and if in the apparations of the angel , that spake to abraham about sodom , to joshua about jericho it were christ that appeared , and so at other times christ appeared in humane shape , as sundry arguments evince ; then daniel could not be ignorant , who the son of man was ▪ nor is the defect of the article , rev. . . and . . a sufficient reason to shew the son of man there to be no more than a man ; for the article is also wanting , john . . and yet the son of man is meant peculiarly of christ : and so is dan. . . though it be only read a man. it is to be considered that the term son of man is still given by christ to himself , not as maldonat the jesuite conceived , as debasing himself , or speaking of himself diminutively , as psal. . . but i am a worm , and no man : a reproach of men and despised of the people : for he doth give himself the title of the son of man not in his prayer to god , as psal. . . but in his speeches to the people , and then when he expresseth his power , mat. . . mat. . . mat. . & . , . nor do the places alledged prove that the title of son of man is taken by christ to himself , to shew his debasement by it , but to imply , that though he were that son of man to whom dominion over all nations did belong , yet he had not then where to lay his head : and the like is to be said of that mat. . . that even he who was the son of man by excellency , should be three daies and three nights in the heart of the earth : nor is there mat. . . a lessening of christs person below the holy spirit implied by the title son of man ; the sin is less which is against the son of man , than the blasphemy against the holy spirit , not because of the excellency of the spirits person above the person of the son of man , but because of the property of that sin , being against the conviction of the spirit by his operation , john . . the jews enquire , who is this son of man ? not meaning , that the son of man was a diminitive term , but doubting how that son of man should be the messiah , of whom he had said that he should be lifted up , verse . and for that place , psal. . . heb. . . the son of man doth not express an abject condition , though an inferiour low nature in comparison of gods , but rather christs high dignity ; the authour of that epistle proving , that to no other man were all things made subject , but to him , who being made little lower than the angels , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for a little time ; to wit , the time of his suffering , verse . ( as cameron expounds it , praelect . in mat. . . ) was made superiour to angels , and had all things subjected to him . sect . . christ's consubstantiality with the father according to his deity , with us according to his humanity , as the chalcedon councel determined , is asserted and proved from john . . acts . . rom. . , . and . . however , whether the reason of the appellation be this latter or no , it is certain , that thereby is signified , that christ hath an humane as well as a divine nature ; and according to the doctrine of the councel of chalcedon i determine , that the son of god our lord jesus christ , is truely god , and truely man , the same , of a reasonable soul and body , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , consubstantial with the father , touching the god-head , and consubstantial , or of one essence or substance with us , according to the man-hood : which it were unnecessary to prove , sith his composition of body , birth , growth , properties , actions , sufferings , and what ever else prove a person to be a man , as we are , as plainly are related , and were as fully manifested to have been in christ jesus , as in any other man ; but that as of old valentinus , marcion , and some others denied his body to have been of humane seed as the matter ; holding it to have been imaginary , not real , or coelestial , and to have passed through the virgins womb : so others of late have denied the truth of christs incarnation , and the reason of his being termed the son of man , contrary to the holy scriptures , as shall be shewed by these texts following , which ascribe both a divine and humane nature to one and the same person , the lord jesus christ , both while he was on earth , and as he is now in heaven , and shall appear at his future coming to judgement . to this purpose are the words alledged before , out of john . . which shew that the same person who is the word , was flesh ; which , because i have before vindicated sect. . i shall not insist on here , nor on such proofs as may be made from col. . . or heb. . . in which that is ascribed to the son ( whom i before proved , sect. , , , . from those chapters to be god ) which proves him a man , to wit his being head of the body the church , the first-born from the dead , who by himself purged our sins , and is sate down on the right hand of the majesty in the heights : but consider other places , where both natures in one person are declared : among which i shall chuse to insist on first , those places , which speak of christ as descending from the fathers according to the flesh , as acts . . therefore david being a prophet , and knowing that god had sworn with an oath to him , that of the fruit of his loins , according to the flesh , he would raise up christ to sit on his throne . rom. . , . concerning his son jesus christ our lord , which was made of the seed of david according to the flesh , who was declared or determined the son of god , in , or with power according to the spirit of holiness by the resurrection of , or from the dead . rom. . . whose are the fathers , and of whom christ according to the flesh , who is over all , god blessed for ever . which texts do expresly teach , that jesus christ had a humane nature , which is termed the flesh , as it is frequent by [ flesh ] to understand a man or humane nature , rom. . . and . . isa. . . gal. . . for he was of the fruit of davids loins ▪ according to the flesh , which being a restriction cannot limit [ raising up ] but [ christ ] and so notes another part , according to which christ was not raised up out of the loins of david , which must be understood of his divine nature ; according to which he was davids lord , mat. . , . he was of the seed of david , and of the fathers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as to that which was according to the flesh ; restrictively after it , implying another nature , according to which , he is of an higher original , even the son of god , rom. . , . god over all , blessed for ever , rom. . . whence it is inferred : he who is so davids son according to the flesh , raised up out of the fruit of his loins according to the flesh , made of the seed of david according to the flesh , of the fathers according to the flesh , as that he is also davids lord , the son of god , god over all blessed for ever ; is consubstantial with the father as touching the god-head , and consubstantial with us as touching his man-hood : but such is jesus christ. therefore , &c. sect . . the exception against the argument from acts . . rom. . , . rom. . . is set down . against this it is thus excepted : when the apostle saith , that christ came of the fathers according to the flesh , who is over all a god blessed for ever ; the opposition is not entire and exact as wanting the other member : what that member is , another passage of the apostle , wherein you have the same opposition in describing christ , will inform you ; it is rom. . , . concerning his son jesus christ our lord , who was made ( or rather born ) of the seed of david according to the flesh , and declared to be the son of god with power ( gr. determined , or ordained son of god in power ) according to the spirit of holiness , by the resurrection from the dead : here you see that to those words , according to the flesh , are opposed these , according to the spirit of holiness : again , what this spirit of holiness is , will be no hard matter to find out , if we consider that as the flesh signifyeth a constituting part of christ , namely his fleshly body ; so also must the spirit of holiness , opposed thereunto , signifie a constituting part : if so , then it is not the holy spirit , as every one will confesse , nor the reasonable soul of christ , because he is intimated to have had this spirit by means of the resurrection from the dead , whereas he had a reasonable soul before his death : nor the divine nature , for that is no where in scripture designed by the name of spirit , or spirit of holiness : besides , the adversaries hold , that christ had the divine ▪ nature , whilst he was yet cloathed with flesh . it remains therefore that by the spirit of holiness , which christ had by means of the resurrection of the dead , and is a constituting part of him , is to be understood his holy , spiritual body , whereby he is excepted from other men , being the first-born from the dead , or the first that so rose from the dead , as that he never dyed again , but was cloathed with a spiritual body , and made like to god , who is a spirit . and now the sense of that passage beginneth to appear , heb. . . how much more shall the blood of christ , who through the eternal spirit ( gr. through an eternal spirit , for no article is prefixed ) offered himself without spot to god ; purge your consciences from dead works to serve the living god ? by eternal spirit is here meant the spiritual body of christ , which lasteth to all eternity ; and this expression is opposed to what the same divine authour speaketh of christ , heb. . . who in the daies of his flesh , &c. for eternal is contrary to dayes , and spirit to flesh : neither will that which we have here spoken seem strange to him , who having penetrated into that profound epistle to the hebrews , knoweth ( what is there frequently intimated ) that christ then made his offering for our sins ; when , after his resurrection , he entered into heaven , and being endued with a spiritual and immortal body , presented himself before god : for so the type of the levitical high-priest making the yearly atonement for the si●s of the people ( levit. . ) did require : for as the atonement was not then made , when he slew the beasts , but when having put on his linnen robes , he brought their blood into the sanctuary before the mercy-seat : so neither did christ offer his sacrifice for our sins upon the cross , but when after his resurrection , being cloathed with robes of immortality and glory , he entered into heaven , the true sanctuary , and presented himself to god. ( wherefore to return to the foresaid passage , rom. . . ) when it is there said , of whom according to the flesh ( for so the greek hath it ) christ came , who is over all a god to be blessed for ever ; we ought ( by the authority of the apostle himself ) to supply in our mind the other member of the opposition , and to understand the place , as if it had been said ; who according to the spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead , is over all a god blessed for ever : but if christ be according to the spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead ( that is ) according to his spiritual body , which he received by means of the resurrection from the dead the son of god in power , and accordingly a god over all ; he is not the son of god in power , and accordingly a god over all , by having the divine nature personally united to his humane nature , but by the glorification and exaltation of his v●ry humane nature . sect . . this exception against the argument is refuted . i reply , that in this passage there are many errours . . that rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to be rendered [ born ] rather than made : for though i deny not that the participle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may signifie [ born ] yet here it is not so fitly thus rendered , as [ made ] because it is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 commonly used for birth or generation , as mat. . . luke . . . & . . joh. . . & . . rom. . . but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as gal. . . nor is it said born of the mother , or woman , as in expressions of birth is usual , job . . mat. . . luke . . and the preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth note , not the womb from whence he came , but the matter out of which he was formed : for doubtless [ of the seed of david according to the flesh , rom. . . ] is the same with [ of the fruit of his loins according to the flesh , acts . . ] now [ of the fruit of his loins according to the flesh ] notes the matter out of which he had flesh or a humane body ; and therefore the father or antient progenitour david is mentioned , and his seed , and the fruit of his loins ; as the jew is said to come out of the loins of abraham , and levi to be in his loins , heb. . , . in respect of the matter out of which they came , not the mother or her womb , as the place from whence : and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes the act of god answerable to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 acts . . raise up , not the act of the mother in bringing forth , and therefore rom. . . it is rightly translated [ made ] or as piscator [ orti raised ] answerably to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sprang up , heb. . . . it is granted , that [ according to the flesh ] notes a constituting part , but that it notes a constituting part , which christ had only afore his resurrection , and not after his resurrection , is not to be granted : for as it is now , the humane body of christ , or humane nature is made of the seed of david , and raised of the fruit of his loins according to the flesh , sith it is the same numerical body , and christ is still the same man which was made , or descended , or sprang out of david , notwithstanding any alteration in the outward estate , or inherent qualities in his humanity or humane body ; it doth not become a constituting part in its humiliation , and not a constituting part in his exaltation : that very being which was made of the seed of david according to the flesh , which was raised of the fruit of his loins according to the flesh , was to sit on his throne , acts . . and to reign , luke . , . and therefore as the exceptor argues , that by the spirit of holiness cannot be meant the soul or divinity of christ , because he had both ( in our opinion at least ) in the daies of his flesh , though the soul were not then glorified ; i may argue , by the spirit of holiness is not meant his glorified body , because he had it , though not then glorified , even in the daies of his flesh . . which is more amply confirmed by shewing , that [ according to the flesh ] notes not his fleshly body as he speaks , that is christs humane body in its debasement only , but his humane nature : for according to the flesh , rom. . . signifies by the same authours opinion , and the evidence arising from comparing the place , the same that it doth , rom. . . now it signifies rom , . . the same which it doth ver . . where paul calls the israelites his brethren , kinsmen , according to the flesh , but he means not , they were his brethren or kinsmen according to the flesh , that is restrictively to their weakness , debasement , or mortality , in opposition to their glorification , and excluding that as inconsistent with their being his brethren or ki●smen according to the flesh : but he means by according to the flesh , their humane nature as men , and as men descended from the same ancestors , and so in like manner , when it is said , christ was from the fathers according to the flesh ; the meaning is not , according to his weak , or inglorious condition precisely , and exclusively to his glorified condition , but simply according to his humane nature , as descended from them , whether in the daies of his flesh , or exaltation , without any discrimination : which is confirmed by our saviours own speech to his disciples , luke . . behold my hands and my feet , that it is i my self ; handle me and see , for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have ; therefore christ supposed atter his re●urrection that he had flesh , that his humane body was a fleshly body , the same according to the flesh that it was before ; which is also strengthened by the expressions , acts . 〈◊〉 . that god raised him ●p of the fruit of davids loins according to the flesh bu● god did not raise him up of the fruit of dav●ds loins according to the flesh , barely ●s weak , mortal , and deb●sed , but simply as man descended from him , therefore [ according to the flesh ] imports christs humanity or humane body as from david without restriction to his low estate : and v. . when it is said , his flesh did not see corruption ; his body is still termed flesh , the same flesh , and not considered as weak , for as such it saw a change ( which may be termed in some sort a corruption , to wit , a change from that weakness it had to a better form , but as the constituting part of his humane nature . . by [ the spirit of holiness rom. . . ] whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 note a constituting part , or an efficient cause , cannot be meant christs holy spiritual body in the exceptors sense . for . it would imply that his spiritual body were another constituting part than his fleshly ▪ body , which is already refuted . . it would imply that his fleshly body were not his holy body ; whereas that which was born of mary was that holy thing , which should be called the son of god , luke . . . no where is the body of christ termed a spirit , or the spirit of holiness in any estate : for though it be true , that cor. . . mentions a spiritual body ; yet . that is there contradistinguished not to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fleshly , but to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 natural , or ●oulary . . no where termed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a spirit . . nor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the spirit of holiness . . after his resurrection christ denies his body to be a spirit , as having flesh and bones , luke . . and he is said to enter into the holy place by his own blood , heb. . . and to have consecrated for us a new and living way to enter into the holiest by his blood , through the veil , that is to say his flesh , heb. . , . it is an errour , that by the eternal spirit , heb. . . is meant christs eternal spiritual body ; for [ the eternal spirit ] there must be of something distinct from himself ; else the meaning should be , he offered himself by himself , which is tautological and absurd ; but by himself must be meant his body , as heb. . . having purged our sins by himself , is by his own body : for the thing offered was his own body , or his life or soul , isa. . . in the type , the thing offered is some body , gift or sacrifice heb. . . and . . and . . . and . . and . , . whence the body offered is termed the oblation , heb. . , . in the antitype christ is said to offer himself , that is , his body called his oblation , heb. . . and this offering is termed , heb. . , . the sacrifice of himself for the putting away of sin , and this to be not often , but once in the end of the world , ver . . he was once offered to bear the sins of many ; verse . he needed not daily , as those high-priests , to offer up sacrifice first for his own sins , and then for the peoples : for this he did once when he offered up himself , heb. . . by the which will we are sanctified , by the offering of the body of jesus christ once for all . heb. . . but this man after he had offered one sacrifice for sins , for ever sate down on the right hand of god , verse . which must be afore he sate down on the right hand of god , and therefore on earth , and this was by his suffering or dying , heb. . , , . and therefore cannot be referred to his appearing in heaven , but to his blood-shedding , heb. . . in the daies of his flesh : whereby it appears to be false , that christ did not offer his sacrifice for our sins , on the cross , there being no other time meant by that once when he offered up himself for the sins of the people , heb. . . and whereas it is sa●d , heb. . christ was once offered to bear the sins of many . st. peter tells us , epistle . . who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree , that we being dead to sin should live unto righteousness ; by whose stripes ye were healed : which doth evidently refer to isa. . , , . whence the last clause is taken , and shews the bearing of our sins by the offering of himself to have been on the cross or at the time of his suffering on earth . and hereby it appears to be false , that christ made not atonement till he came to heaven : for col. . . it is said , and having made peace through the blood of his cross he reconciled all things to his father , ver . , . now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death . rom. . . god sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh , and for sin ( or by a sacrifice for sin , as heb. . . ) condemned sin in the flesh , which is all one with making atonement . that which is alledged , that the atonement was not then made , when the high-priest slew the beasts , but when having put on his linnen robes , he brought their blood into the sanctuary before the mercy-seat , is partly false , there being atonement made for himself and his house , levit. . , . before he entered into the holy place ; and partly impertinent , sith the point in question is not where the atonement was made , but where christ offered himself , heb. . . though both the offering and the atonement are resolved to have been afore his sitting at the right hand of god , heb. . . and . . nor doth it appear , that [ eternal spirit , heb. . . ] is put in opposition to the daies of his flesh , heb. . . for it is not said , heb. . . flesh that hath daies , as if it noted a distinction of his body mortal , from his spiritual immortal body ▪ but daies of his flesh , only to note the time of his offering prayers , not the quality or adjunct of his body : nor is it said , he offered by the daies of his flesh , as here by the eternal spirit , but in the daies of his fl●sh , to note the time , which is not intimated , heb. . . by that term , by the eternal spirit , for then it should rather have been said , by or in the eternity of the spirit : the offering being an act of christ on earth , is no other than the act of his deed and will , whereby he did present himself as a sacrifice to god , as the phrase is , rom. . . or as it is eph. . . gave himself for us , an offering and a sacrifice to god for a sweet-smelling savour ; by reason of such acts abraham is said to offer up isaac , heb. . . and we are said to offer the sacrifice of praise , heb. . . spiritual sacrifices , pet. . . which is plainly expressed , heb. . . by which will we are sanct●fied by the offering of the body of jesus christ once , or for once ; which was no other than that which he expressed in that prayer , which armi●●●● termed rightly the canon or rule of christs sacrifice , john . . and for them i sanctifie my self , that they also may be sanctified in truth : which being considered , i see not what good sense can be made of it , as many divines expound it , of the divinity of christ making the sacrifice of christ of value to satisfie for sins : for the words [ through the eternal spirit ] have not respect to himself , who was offered , as enhauncing the price of the thing offered , by reason of the union of it to himself , neither the place of it before himself , nor the preposition used , being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through or by , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with or in conjunction , do sute with such a sense ; but it is in construction annexed and referred to the offering , and notes the cause and means of offering : besides the reason of piscator is good in his scholie on the text , that it belongs not to the deity to offer sacrifice , but that is it to which it is offered by a man as a man : and indeed it is not good sense to say , christ offered himself by his god-head to god , it being not easily conceivable what notion the god-head should have in such a speech , which is not absurd or inept : nor do i think piscators opinion good , that by the eternal spirit is meant christs immortal soul , partly because no where is christs humane soul called the eternal spirit , partly because i think it should rather be said in than through the eternal spirit , if christs immortal soul were meant by it , the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 noting the efficient cause , not the subject in which the act of offering was : and therefore i rather pitch upon it to understand by [ the eternal spirit ] the holy spirit answering to the fire , which kindled the sacrifice , and moving or inflaming the heart of christ with love to us and obedience to god , to give himself an offering and a sacrifice to god for us , ephes. . . the holy spirit is fitly resembled by fire , mat. . . and he well termed the eternal spi●it in opposition to the temporary fire kindling the legal sacrifices : but if the allusion be not thereto , yet the sense is good and right : for as it is said that christ had not the spirit by measure , john . . and that he was full of the holy ghost , luke . . that the spirit of the lord was upon him , that it anointed him , verse . so it is said , that he was moved by the spirit to be tempted to preach , in the same places , and to cast out devils by the spirit of god , god putting his spirit on him he shewed judgment to the gentiles , sent forth judgement to victory , ma● . . , , . gave commandements through the holy ghost , acts . . and accordingly here is said to offer himself to god by the holy eternal spirit : nor is the want of the article any more against the expounding the eternal spirit , of the holy ghost , than against the expounding it of christs spiritual immortal body , it being as requisite in respect of use to design the one as the other ; but the truth is , it is not requisite , that it should be prefixed to shew it to be meant of the holy spirit , sith it is omitted rom. . . and . . &c. and even in this e●●stl● h●b . . . and . . so that the sense may be , notwithstanding any thing i find to the contrary that christ willingly , obediently offered , or yielded , through the holy spirits incitation or operation in him , himself a sacrifice without spot or blemish to god : and as executing the function of priest-hood to which he was anointed above others , heb. . . and this sense is most agreable to the apostles intent , which is to set forth the efficacy and validity of christs sacrifice above the legal ; which he doth here from the obedience and readiness of will to offer himself as he doth . heb. . . and the holiness of his person , or his being without spot or blemish , as he doth heb. . , . pet. . . no where that i find from the hypostatical union , or the spirituality , immortality , and glory of his humane body , or the immortality of his soul. . the term [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rom. . . ] is not rightly rendered [ determined or ordained son of god in power ] for though it be true , that the verb signifies appointment , ordination , or predestination , and that this last is used by the latin vulgar translation , and by sundry of the antients , and the verb is used so in the new testament , luk● . . acts . . and . . and . , . in which places the appointment , or determination is by god of a thing future : yet that cannot be the meaning , rom. . . for then the sense should be , that christ should be appointed , or ordained , or determined by god , either that by power , according to his spiritual body by the resurrection of the dead he should be the son of god ; or else that his appointment , ordination or determination that he should be the son of god , was by power according to the spirit of holiness , that is his holy spirituall body , by the resurrection from the dead . this latter sense is most absurd ; it would intimate , as if gods determination were in power according to christs spiritual body by the resurrection of the dead ; whereas the determination of gods purpose , or his ordaining of things future , hath no cause but his will , his ordaining is not an act of power , though the execution of it be ; nor is the former sense true : for then the meaning should be , that christs being the son of god was consequent on the power , the spirit of holiness , and resurrection of the dead , sith ordaining or fore-appointing his sonship to be thereby supposeth them to be before , as the cause is before the effect , and his sonship to be future to them , or after them : but this is contrary to what is confessed by the adversaries , that he was the son of god before his resurrection , and is proved from , luke . . mat. . . john . . and heb. . . although he were a son yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered , which shews he was a son afore he learned obedience by the things which he suffered : for which reasons i like not to say as dr. pearson doth in his exposition on the second article of the creed , that he was defined , or constituted , and appointed the son of god in power by the resurrection from the dead ; nor that of grotius , that he was made a celestial king after his resurrection , and also before destinated to that kingdom by so many miracles done by divine power proper to him and dwelling in him , where the term son of god standing in contradistinction , to being of the seed of david , according to the flesh , is as much as a celestial king , and the participle determined is expounded by two other , made , and before destinated , the one noting a thing past , the other a thing future , so as that the same word in the same place shall signifie being made a celestial king after christs resurrection , and being aestinated before to that kingdom , and in power according to the spirit of holiness , shall be divine power proper to him ▪ and inhabiting in him by that spirit of holiness , that is force of divinity by which from the beginning of his conception he was sanctified , and by which he did miracles , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , shall be after the resurrect on from the dead : none of which are made good by heb. . . acts . . or acts ● . . or any other which he produ●eth in his annot. on rom. . . nor do i conceive can be ; nor do i think d● . hammond his paraphr●se right [ but according to the spirit of holiness , or in respect of that other nature in him , called his eternal spirit , heb. . . ] ( far above all that is flesh and blood ) that , i say which shone in him most perfectly , after , and through , and by his resurrection from the dead , cor. . . was set at gods right hand , the son of god in power , to whom accordingly as to a son , all power was given by the father ] for besides what before and after is , or will be said about the spirit of holiness , and eternal spirit , there is nothing of gods right hand in the text , nor doth [ set at gods right hand the son of god in power ] well explain [ determined the son of god in power ] nor is he rightly said to be set at gods right hand according to the spirit of holiness , or in respect of that other nature in him , called his eternal spirit , heb. . . for his being set at the right hand of god is not precisely according to that other nature , but rather according to that which he had of the seed of david according the flesh : nor is it fitly said that other nature did shine most perfectly after , through or by his resurrection from the dead , cor. . . for though his being the son of god was proved by it , yet how the divine nature did shine in him through , by , after his resurrection from the dead is hard to understand , nor do any words in the text countenance such a paraphrase : wherefore not mis-liking dr. hammond's translation ▪ demonstrated or defined the son of god i● power ; nor that of the syriak interpreter who turns 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by , who was known ; i stick to that sense , which our translators have chosen , declared , or as chrysostom , in 〈…〉 t s it [ shewed , demo●strated or manifested to be the son of god over and above what he was of the seed of david according to the flesh ] and sundry others with him : and so [ determined ] notes not an act of the will of god concerning the futurity of a thing , but gods sentence as it were , setling the understanding by way of certification of what was surely so , or evidence of it as of a thing already , being to take away doubting , in the sense in which in the schools their resolutions concerning things in question , are called their determinations : in which sense i conceive it taken , heb. . . where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by our translators rendered [ limiteth ] is the same which he expresseth , verse . he had not spoken of another day : and likewise that which declareth what a thing is , in logick is termed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or a definition of it , and the mood which is indicative , is termed by grammarians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the boundaries of lands are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , because they shew what is belonging to a person , and in composition hyppocrates his determinations , or declarations about medicines are entituled his aphorisms , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a distinct explication of a thing : according to which exposition the meaning is , rom. . . that god had determined as it were by sentence in the resurrection of him from the dead , that christ jesus had another nature above that he had of the seed of david , to wit , that he was the son of god. . the resurrection of the dead cannot be meant of the general resurrection , as if the sense were , he is predestinated or fore-appointed that he shall be the son of god in power when he shall raise the dead , but of christs particular resurrection : for though the general resurrection shall most fully demonstrate the glory of christ , yet the determination being of a thing past , must be understood of his own resurrection : nor is it a sufficient exception against this , that the apostle saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the resurrection of the dead not from the dead , and that it is not by his resurrection from the dead , but the resurrection of the dead : for acts . . there is in st. paul's speech the same expression , where speaking of what the prophers fore-told of christs resurrection , he useth this expression 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , word by word , that he the first by rising of the dead , that is as he should suffer , so he should be the first or chief risen from the dead , who should shew or publish light to the people and the gentiles . . in power , rom. . . cannot be referred to the power of christ , whereby he did miracles , but to the power of god by which he was raised from the dead , of which the same apostle speaketh , cor. . . for though he was crucified 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through , or by reason of weakness , yet he liveth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because of , or by the power of god , cor. . . and god hath both raised up the lord , and will also raise up us by his own power , rom. . . like as christ was raised from the dead by the glory ( that is the power ) of the father : which is confirmed in that he is said to be determined the son of god in power , which determination is referred to the fathers , and therefore the power is the fathers by which he is determined to be the son of god. . i confess the divine nature of christ is no where that i find , termed the spirit of holiness , or the holy spirit , nor the glorified body of christ , although god be termed a spirit , john . . and cor. . . the lord is that spirit , which to me seems most likely to be meant of christ , who is in the epistles of paul most commonly meant by this title [ the lord ] and in the verse before meant , where it is said [ nevertheless when it shall turn to the lord ] that is christ ; and the next verse following [ but we all with open face beholding the glory of the lord ] that is jesus christ distinguished in the same verse from the holy spirit , termed the spirit of the lord , if it be not to be read , as from the lord the spirit , and so applied to christ : it is said that christ knew in his spirit , mark. . . that he grew , and waxed strong in spirit , or was strengthened by the spirit , luke . . that he groaned in spirit , joh. . . which may , or are to be understood otherwise than of his divine nature , john . . it is the spirit that quickneth , the flesh profiteth nothing , the words which i speak unto you are spirit , and are life , are meant otherwise than of christs divine nature , and tim. . . justified in spirit , or in the spirit may be meant otherwise than of his divine nature , and so may quickened by the spirit , pet. . . of which in that which follows : the spirit of christ is , rom. . . termed the spirit of god , and if the holy ghost , cor. . , . and . . and that which was born of mary is said to be that holy thing , which shall be called the son of god , luke . . and dan. . . he is termed the holy of holies , or as we read , the most holy , but no where the spirit of holiness . and therefore if the spirit of holiness note not the divine nature of christ , because it is no where in the scripture designed by the name of spirit , or spirit of holiness , the reason is as good against the interpretation of [ the spirit of holiness ] by [ the holy spiritual body of christ : ] nor is there likelehood that by [ spirit ] should be meant [ body ] sith spirit and body are opposed , or contradistinguished , cor. . . and . . james . . thes. . . &c. as well as flesh and spirit : and if by [ spirit of holiness ] be meant a constituting part of christ distinct from flesh , which he had by means of the resurrection , it cannot be meant of his body , which is the same in substance it was in the daies of his flesh , and so the same constituting part , differing only in quality and external condition , as having an alteration , not another generation or creation , and therefore cannot be rightly termed another constituting part : and this reason with the texts alledged do better countenance the understanding the deity of christ by [ the spirit of holiness ] than his holy spiritual body : yet for my part , i incline to neither , but rather to the opinion , that conceives by [ the spirit of holiness ] is meant the holy ghost , or third person of the sacred trinity , and that for these reasons . . because the term [ spirit of holiness ] is all one in sense with [ the holy spirit ] which is the usual title given to that person , mat. . . cor. . . john . . and is according to usual manner of expressing the adjective by the genitive case of the substantive , as the children of wisdom are wise children , children of obedience , pet. . . obedient children , the children of l 〈…〉 , enlightned children , eph. . . . because the resurrection is ascribed to the spirit , rom. . . if the spirit of him that raised jesus from the dead , dwell in you , be that raised christ from the dead , shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his spirit that dwelleth in you , pet. . . being put to death in the flesh , but quickened by the spirit . . because the sense thus seems to be easiest , and most agreeable to the apostles scope , who having said , that the son of god was made of the seed of david according to the flesh , noting a being beyond this , adds , that he was declared , determined , defined or resolved to be the son of god beyond his being the son of david with power , by his rising from the dead , which was by power , according to the spirit of holiness , that is the holy spirit , to whom acts of power are usually ascribed , as luke . . mat. . . which was an undoubted evidence of his being the son of god , or having a divine nature , sith he foretold it as a thing to be done by himself , john . . and . , . and . , . nor is it necessary that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should note a constituting part , rom. . . for it may note an efficient cause mediate , as when it is said mark. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with authority he commandeth the unclean spirits , which is , luke . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with authority and power , so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is by might , or mightily , heb. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to the power , is by vertue or reason of the power or proportion and congruity to the agent , as when it is said , rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as much as in me lies , and the sense be , in power according to the spirit of holiness , that is , with or through the holy spirit , or congruously , proportionably to the holy spirit ; which if it do not so fully answer the use of the preposition , yet we may say as dr. hammond in a like case , annot on mark. . . though the preposition do not favour this interpretation , yet the promiscuous uncertain use of prepositions among sacred writers is so observable , that it may take off much of that one objection . so far as my observation hath hitherto attained in the apostles and other writers greek expressions , if the apostle had intended that the spirit of holiness should note another constituting part , he should have put next to [ the son of god ] according to the spirit of holiness , as he did ver . . according to the flesh next to of the seed of david , but being put between with power and the resurrection of the dead , it seems not to note a constituting part , but the efficient cause of the resurrection , or subject of that power , by which christ was raised . . the distinct mention rom. . . of christs being of the fathers according to the flesh , that is his humane nature , and then adding , who is over all god blessed for ever , shews that he is over all god blessed for ever , according to his divine nature or deity : nor is the defect of the article a sufficient reason to the contrary , sith it is very frequent to put 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without the article , where it is meant of god in nature , as cor. . . . and . . and . . . &c. . in that god said to christ , psal. . . and he was then davids lord , acts . . when he knew , verse . that god had sworn with an oath to him , that of the fruit of his loins he would raise up christ to sit on his throne , it proves that christ was in being and was his lord afore he was his son , and so had a divine nature , though he was his son according to the flesh . sect . . the consubstantiality of christ with the father and us , is proved from tim. . . the next text of scripture i shall insist on to prove the consubstantiality of christ to god and us , is tim. . . where st. paul saith , and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness ; god was manifested in the flesh , justified in the spirit , seen of angels , preached unto the gentiles , believed on in the world , received up into glory : this passage is undoubtedly meant of the lord jesus , sith of no other are these things true , that ●e was manifested in the flesh , &c. and they are true of him : he was manifested in the flesh being made flesh , justified in , or by the spirit at his baptism , by his miracles , and at his resurrection to be , that which he said himself to be , the son of god , against the false accusations of the pharisees as a deceiver , confederate with satan ; seen of angels at his birth , temptation in the wilderness , agony in the garden , resurrection from the grave , and ascension into heaven , preached to the gentiles by his apostles , believed on in the world even by the gentiles , and received up in , or into glory at his ascension into heaven : now he of whom these things are said is god , therefore the same person , christ jesus is both god and man ; or consubstantial to the father in respect of his god-head , to us in respect of his man-hood . sect . . the exceptions against this proof . the exception against this argument is : . that the reading god was manifested in the flesh , is suspected to have been altered by nestorians , because the vulgar latin , the syriak , arabian interpreters , and ambrose all read [ which was manifested ] and refer it to the mystery of godliness , and so this sense is given of it , that the gospel was first made known not by angels , but by mortal men , and according to their outward appearance weak , christ and his apostles , as flesh , col. . . notes a mortal man , cor. . . john . . was justified in spirit ] that is , that truth was approved by many miracles , for spirit is miracles by a metonymy , which is , cor. . . and elsewhere . and to be justified here is to be approved , as mat. . . so he is said to be justified , who in a contention is a conquerour , because his cause is approved , deut. . . add psal. . . ( i imagine grotius means , psal. . . ) [ seen of angels ] to wit , wi●h greatest admiration : angels le●rned this secret by mortal men , ephes. . . pet. . . to see with the hebrews is translated to all manner of knowing : was preached to the gentiles ] that truth was not only declared to the jews , but also to the gentiles , who were most estranged from god , eph. . . col. . . believed in the world ] that is in a great part of the world , rom. . . col. . . received up in glory ] it was very gloriously exalted , to wit , because it brought much more holiness than any doctrines formerly : to be taken up is to be lifted up on high , and answers to the hebrew verbs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in glory gloriously , phil. . . col. . . see al●●o , cor. . . so they glorified the word of the lord , acts . . . others thus : god the father was manifested , that is , his will made known in the flesh , that is , with or by the infirmity of christ and his apostles , justified in spirit , taken or acknowledged for true by divine vertue which shined in christ as well as his apostles , or put forth it self powerfully by them ; was seen of angels , the good will of god towards men , was revealed to angels , received up in glory , the will of god was by many chearfully received and constantly retained , or the holy religion of christ was gloriously admitted and received . sect . . these exceptions are refelled . to which i reply : . that the reading of [ which ] instead of [ god ] should be followed against all copies of the original now extant is unreasonable , and not to be yielded to : the syriak , arabian , and latin are not to be put in the ballance with the greek copies : the latin translation is found and confessed even by romanists to be so faulty , as that it is not of itself to be rested on , much less are ambrose and hin 〈…〉 arus , who were mis-led by it : that nestoria●s should foyst in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 god is not likely , sith it is against their opinion , and was used by chrysostom before nestorius , and by cyril against the nestorians , as dr. pearson shews in his exposition of the creed , artic. . page . of the second edition . . by [ god ] cannot be meant , either god the father , or his will , or the gospel , or the truth of it . . because the words cannot be expounded so in either of the senses given : neither is god the father any where said to be manifested in the flesh , justified in the spirit , received up in glory : nor doth god manifested in the flesh signifie god , or his will , or gospel , or truth manifested in infirmity , or christ and his apostles in their infirmity , nor justified in , or by the spirit approved by miracles , nor seen of angels , learned by them from mortal men , nor received up in glory , admitted or received in mens minds : none of all the texts alledged countenance these expositions ; though flesh sometimes signifies mortal weak man , it being a word of very various acceptions , and the gospel is said to be manifested as col. . . and cor. . . and gal. . . st. paul saith , he preached the gospel at first to the galatians through the infirmity of the flesh , yet no where is the gospel said to be manifested in the flesh , or flesh put simply for infirmity . that joh. . . that jesus christ is come in the flesh , is against his sense of preaching the gospel in infirmity , it plainly noting his coming into the world in a humane nature , in the sense in which he said , john. . . the word was made flesh , and dwelt among us . though i deny not , that words of sense do often note other knowledge than by sense , yet these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are scarce ever found to be applied to any thing but that which is descernable by sight : however if they were , yet the sense imagined hath no colour , sith it is not said , seen of angels by the church : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies not receiving by men that glorifie it , but the glory of the person or thing manifested , phil. . . col. . . are not meant of such glory , or alacrity , or rejoycing , as is made the meaning of glory , tim. . . nor do we find in the greek bibles such language as answers to the pretended exposition of it in that place : and for receiving the gospel , the usual word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , thes. . . and . . acts . . not the word there used . . according to that exposition it would be an in●pt tautology to say , he was believed on in the world , and received up in glory if meant of receiving in mens hearts : for what is it to be believed on , but to be received in mens hearts ? which is not to be conceived of the apostle in these concise aphorismes . . there would be no mystery much less a great mystery without contradiction in that which the apostle saith , if the meaning were as it is made , sith gods will was often manifested by mortal men , even by all the prophets , who testified before-hand the sufferings of christ , and the glory that should follow , pet. . . and approved by miracles done by moses , elias , elisha , known by angels who brought messages to daniel and others , preached to the gentiles by jonah at niniveh , believed in the world by the ninivites , received with alacrity ; as by david and others . . the words in the plain obvious sense , are truely and rightly expounded of jesus christ who is said to be god , john . , . to come in the flesh in his humane nature , to be made flesh , john . . to be manifested in his works , john . . and his preaching , mark . . luke . , . justified in the spirit , or by the spirit , either by the spirits descent on him at his baptisme john . , . whereby he was proclaimed and proved to be the son of god , or by his miracles , as mat. . . against the accu 〈…〉 on of colluding with the devil , or at his resurrection as i conceive , rom. . , . or by giving the holy ghost , acts . . seen of angels , luke . , . mat. . . luke ● . . and . , . acts . . preached to the gentiles , cor. . . cor. . . believed on in the world , rom. . . t 〈…〉 . . , . received up , the word used tim. . . in glory , acts . , , . mark . . luke . and . . . it being said god was manifested in the flesh and this meant of jesus christ proves he was ( before ) god , and then he had flesh , and therefore a humane and divine nature , and consubstantial to the father and to us sect . . the samething is confirmed from pet. . , , . gal. . . rom. . . john . . heb. . . and . . john . . to this i shall subjoyn for confirmation and explication , pet. . , , . where christ is said to be put to death in the flesh , but quickened by the spirit : where flesh must note a constituting part , and yet the spirit note the efficient : for quickened noting his resurrection , cannot note his eternal holy spiritual body , as was conceived meant by the eternal spirit , heb. . . and the spirit of holiness , rom. . . for that was not till he was quickened , and therefore he not quickened in or by it ; nor his humane soul , for that dyed not , and therefore the spirit must note an efficient , and that must be either the divine nature of christ , or , as i conceive , the holy spirit , to whom his resurrection is ascribed , rom. . . called the power of god , cor. . . as what is done by the spirit ; is said to be done by the power of god , luke . . mat. . . luke . . and he was quickened by the spirit by which he preached , verse . which was the holy spirit , gen. . . in the preaching of noah , pet. . . and this was the spirit of christ , pet. . . the holy ghost , pet. . . in that spirit he went and preached to the spirits in prison , which were sometimes disobedient in the daies of noah , which those that deny christs divine nature , will not say to have been done in the th●ee daies of his death afore his resurrection , therefore in the da●es of noah , and consequently he had then a being , to wit a divine nature , otherwise he could not be said then to go and preach by the spirit by which he was quickened , nor the spirits in prison to have been disobedient , when once the long-suffering of god waited in the daies of noah , while the ark was a preparing . to these scriptures i add , gal. . . rom. . . the sending his son supposeth the sons being before , and so his divine nature , made of a woman , in the likeness of sinful flesh his humane , therefore he had both . to the same effect are those texts which speak of his coming in the flesh , as john . . his taking part of flesh and blood , heb. . . where he that was superiour to angels antecedently , was made little lower than the angels , or debased below the angels , partaking flesh and blood , not ashamed to call them brethren , ver . , . whom in respect of his native greatness he might have been ashamed to own as such , and therefore is supposed to have a being above man , afore he was a man : his coming into the world with a body prepared for him , out of obedience and compliance of will to his fathers , heb. . . john . . shews his being with his father before he was a man , and so a divine nature antecedent to his humane . sect . . christs consubstantiality with the father and us , is proved from philip. . , , , . there yet remains that text , which is , philip. . , , , . where the apostle speaks thus : let this mind be in you , which was also in christ jesus , who being in the form of god , thought , or counted it not robbery , or a spoil , or prey to be equal to god , or as god : but made himself of no reputation , or emptied himself , and took upon him the form of a servant , and was made in the likeness of men , or when he had been made like to men ( as meric . casaubon diatriba de usu verborum p. . ) and being found in fashion , or habit as man or a man , and became obedient , or rather being or becoming obedient unto death , even the death of the cross : in which i confess are sundry unusual expressions needful to be cleared , yet sufficient to prove him to have a divine and humane nature , sith he is said to have been in the ●orm of god first , and then to empty himself , to take on him the form of a servant , to be made in the likeness of men , to be found in fashion as a man , to humble himself to death , whence i may argue : he who be●ng in the form of god , counted it no robbery or prey that he was as god , emptied himself , taking the form of a servant when he was made in the likeness of men , and being found in fashion as a man , humbled himself , becoming obedient unt● death , had a divine and humane nature ; but this is true of jesus chr●st , therefore he had both natures . sect . . the exception against this argument is recited . to this argument the exception is thus made : the words and sense being thus : let this mind be in you , which was in christ jesus ; who being in the form of god ( for the exercise and demonstration of divine power , whereby he wrought miracles in as free and uncontrouled a manner as if god himself had been on the earth ) thought it not robbery ( or a prey ) to be equal with god ( that is did not esteem this equality of his with god , consisting in the free exercise of divine power , to be a prey , by holding it fast , and refusing to let it go , as robers are want to do when they have got a prey or booty ) but ( gr. ) emptied himself ( in making no use of the divine power within him to rescue himself out of the hands of the officers sent to apprehend him ) and took upon him the form of a servant ( in suffering himself to be apprehended , bound and whipt as servants are wont to be ) being made in the likeness of men ( that is ordinary and vulgar men , who are endued with no d●vine power ) and being found in fashion ( or habit ) as a man ( that is , in outward quality , condition and acting , no whit differing from a common man ) he humbled himself , and became obedient unto death , even the death of the cross. sect . . the text is explained in order to the refelling of the exception . to clear this text , and argument , and so to refel the exception , it will be necessary to enquire what is meant : . by the form of god. . by being in the form of god. . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . by found . . by humbled himself . . by becoming obedient . . when he was in the form of god. . when he emptied himself ▪ . when he took the form of a servant . . it is true that form 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is most commonly applied to signific something outward which is the object of sight , and therefore grotius conceives , that by the form of god is meant the glory of his miracles . but as dr. casa●bon in the place before cited , rightly observed , where it is used for something which appears to the sight , it is never used for excellent power , or divine power in working miracles , but for the outward visage , when it hath splendour , beauty and excellent lustre , attractive of the eyes , and moving desire or lust , or giving occasion to conceive in the person majesty , or an heroical spirit within , and so awing others , or procuring dread or reverence of him . now it is certain christ had not in the daies of his flesh such a form , but as the prophet foretold , isa. . . he grew up before god as a tender plant , and as a root out of a dry ground : he had no form nor comeliness : and when he was seen there was no beauty that they should desire him , but in outward appearance he was poor and despicable ; nevertheless the verbs simple and compound do signifie something inward and not conspicuous to the eyes . thus it is meant when st. paul saith gal. . . my little children of whom i travail in birth until christ be formed in you , rom. . . be ye transformed in the renewing of your mind , cor. . . we are transformed after the same image . and if in the holy scripture the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 form signifie not that which is inward and hidden , yet in aristotle and other authours , the word signifies the essence or that constitutive essential part of a substance , which differenceth one substance from another , which is defined by aristotle d . physick . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the reason of its being such a thing : and indeed many understand by the form of god , the essence or nature of god. but to the contrary is . . that form hath the same notion , phil. . . in the term form of god , as it hath verse . in the term form of a servant ; but in that notion of the essence or nature of a servant , it cannot be said christ took the form of a servant , for that is a m●er relation , and if he had taken the essence of a servant by being incarnate it had been the same with being made in likeness of men , and so he could not have put off the essence of a servant , no more than the essence of a man , if his taking the form of a servant had been by being made a man : besides the nature of man is not the essence of a servant ; man may be lord as christ man is lord of all , acts . . and yet hath the essence of man , and angels are servants and yet have not the essence of man. . it is said , christ emptied himself , to wit , of the form of god in which he was , which notes some lessening or laying aside of the form of god , in wh●ch he was ; but that could not be the divine essence , therefore it is not here meant . nor is it to be conceived , that by the form of god is meant the power of doing miracles : for neither is the power of miracles any where termed the form of god , and if that were all that is meant , it might be said of moses and elias that they were in the form of god : besides he did not empty himself of the power or exercise of it whereby he did miracles at any time , no not when he was apprehended , for even then the souldiers at his word went backward and fell to the earth , john . . and he restored malch●s his ear cut off by peter , luke . ● . although he did not use his power to rescue himself . therefore it is more likely that by form of god is meant the state or majesty of god , that glory which he had with his father before the world was , john . . the exercise of his empire , which he had opposite to the state of a servant which he took , and to the obedience which he yielded to his father , ver . , . for the estate of god is an estate of empire and command exercising power and dominion , giving of gifts to friends , helping subjects , subduing enemies , which christ did with the father before he took flesh , but emptied himself of it in his humiliation : which is the more confirmed in that his superexaltation , verse . restored that which he emptied himself of : now that was his glory and majesty , all things being made subject to him . and this seems best to agree with the use of the term form , as here it seems to be used : for as the form of a servant notes that which made him appear to others to be under the command of another , to wit , of his father , which was that he should lay down his life and take it again , john . . which was undoubtedly conspicuous to the angels , and also to those who knew him to be the son of god ; so the form of god notes that majesty , glory , exercise of empire which he had with his father , which was apparent to the holy angels , and to abraham who saw his day , and to jacob and other holy persons afore his incarnation , and is the same with his being as god , or equal to god. . from hence then we may understand what is meant by his being in the form of god , to wit his possession and enjoyment of that glory he had with his father before the world was , john . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes the subsistence or being of his person , and the form of god notes his estate of glory and majesty , which i conceive expressed by that of the apostle , cor. , . ye know the grace of our lord jesus christ , that though he were rich , yet for your sakes he became poor , that ye through his poverty might be rich . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be expounded either as an adjective as our translatours render it , equal with god , or as an adverb , and so it is used twelve times in the greek ve●sion of the book of job , wisdome . . in homer , and else-where , and answers to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the hebrew , and notes likeness , and may be translated , as god : now whether of these two waies it is to be read , is in my apprehension difficult : i incline to the latter . . because nothing is expressed that may be as a substantive to it , whereas if it were an adjective , either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 himself , used ver . ▪ or as came●arius in his note observes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his things , should be added : as for that which is by pasor in his lexicon voce 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from zanch. de incarnatione filii dei , lib. . c. . imagined , as if there were an ellipsis of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the sense were , that he was equally god , as god , that is the father ; it is a bold supplement , that hath not any thing to countenance it in the text , and gives much advantage to them that say , he is not the same god. in that which he mentions out of posselius his syntaxis , p. . [ that it is an hellen●sm , and it is put for the noun substantive equality , as if by the article 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the infinitive mood were turned into a noun , and the sense were as in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he gives it , he did not snatch , or catch by rapine equality with god ] the interpretation doth suppose , that he counted it not rapine , is all one with , he did not take by rapine , and the verb substantive of the infinitive mood , to be turned into a noun , whereas it is drowned in his sense , and if it were made a noun , it should be thus read , he did not take by rapine being equality with god , whi●h hath no good sense , and the adjective or adverb is made a noun substantive , not the infinitive mood , and the noun of equality is made to govern a d●tive case without any example , when according to that sense by rule god should be in the genitive : i confess where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used adverbially it doth most commonly note simili●ude of action , yet similitude of being is sometimes expressed by it , as job . . in the greek , and elsewhere , and though it note equality , yet also it notes likeness ; and in the same chapter , v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is translated like minded , and this doth best answer to the use of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ver . , , . which note likeness of estate or condition , yet comprehending withall reality of nature . . if it were to be read to be equal with god , it would intimate , that he emptied himself of it as the adversative ; but verse . shews , and the phrase , he counted it not a prey , do evince ; but equality with god he could not empty himself of , but must hold it as a prey not to be let go , the contrary whereof the text doth propound for our imitation . . whence it seems most likely , that the thing he means by his being as god , was his commanding as god , his like doing with his father mentioned , john . , . which he did in his presence , and such glory as he had then , and now had not as before , but prayes for its restitution , john . . of which see what is said before , sect. . zanchius parte secunda de tribus elo●im , l. . c. . § . . quasi filius hominis cum nubibus c●li venit , hoc est christus pervenit ad gloriam de●tatis post resurrectionem , sicut ego cum m●gnis viris intelligo . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a rare word , yet seems to have the same sense with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. and notes either rapinam or raptum , the act of taking or carrying away , or the thing taken , or ca 〈…〉 d away , both which are expressed by the greek word , and by the word [ robbery ] which our t●anslators use to answer it , yet i rather render it prey , or spoil , as expressing only the thing gotten , not the act of getting . . because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cannot be meant of the acquisition , but the thing possessed . . it is more agreable to the phrase of emptying himself , which presupposeth a thing had or possessed , which was the form of god , and being as god , and the thing possessed as robbers or beasts of prey get what they have . . the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is so used by the greek interpreters , job . . isa. . . isa. . , &c. for the thing gotten , although in the latter place it be translated robbery , and the term robbed is as well meant of the person from whom , as the thing gotten by robbery : so also it is used levit. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that which he took violently away , ezek. . . ezek. . , , , . ezek. . , . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated by the vulgar latine arbitratus est , by beza duxit , by ours thought , may either note an act of judgement , or affection , or purpose , or use : in the first sense to think it not a prey is as much as he did not judge , that the being as god was a thing stoln or gotten by any force or fraud , usurped , or plundered from another , but his own whether by inheritance or free donation : but this is not likely , partly because the inward act of judgement or cogitation is not here propounded to be imitated , but some act of will or affection manifested by outward action or patent fact , which is apparent by the exhortation , verse . where the apostle saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , let the same mind be in you which was also in christ jesus , that is have the same will , purpose , resolution , action as he had , who was so far from doing any thing through st●●fe and vain-glory , that he preferred others before himself , not looking at his own things , but the things of others , which he shewed by his not holding fast his excellency , but emptying himself ; partly also because the act of thinking here denied must be opposite to his emptying himself : for the particle [ but ] being adversative shews the thinking it robbery to be equal with god , or to be as god to be contrary to the emptying ; now if the not thinking were as much as not judging , then the emptying must be an alteration of his thoughts , or a privation of it , which hath no congruous sense : for the emptying was of himself , or that which he was in being , not of his thoughts of himself , or having other thoughts of himself : besides the not thinking it robbery or a prey is not an act of sentence determining what was his own or right he had to a thing , but an act of purpose , that notwithstanding his right or possession , yet his resolution was not to retain it , but ( as the emptying , verse . shews ) tending to a dereliction of it for a time in obedience to his father whom he would glorifie on earth , by finishing the work he gave him to do , though by abasing himself , as he saith in his prayer to his father , john . . where he relates the event of his errand and business for which he came into the world , and for which he took on him the form of a servant : which ●eason evacuates that sense which is given by grotius , heinsius , and if there be any other , that imagine the sense to be according to a speech of john baptist in the syriak liturgy , that he would not assumere rapinam , that is , do such an injurious thing as to pretend to have greater authority than christ , that christ did not think it a wrong to his father that he was equal to him , or had power of miracles , and was beheld as god , as grotius his phrase is : for his act did suppose his ●ight , but expresseth his intent notwithstanding his right , and this antecedent to his emptying himself , taking the form of a servant , being made in the likeness of men , and ●ending thereto removendo prohibens by removing that which might hinder his emptying himself , not disclaiming his right , but relinquishing his possession of what he had , not doing as robbers or others , who hold what they have gotten by violence as long as they have any power to keep it , but freely and voluntarily in dutiful subjection to his father , yielding it up to his hands from whom he received it , in order to the accomplishment of his will , as it is expressed , heb. . . and this also helps to shew that piscator and those who follow him do mistake in the notion of this phrase , as if it were , as if the apostle had said , he did not as men that have gotten a spoil by victory , triumphantly make shew of it , but did rather conceal , or hide it at least , for the greatest part of his life forbidding the divulging his miracles , and that confession which peter made , mat. . . and the vision in the mount at his transfiguration , mat. . . for then his not thinking it a spoil should be after his emptying , which was when he took the form of a servant , being made in the likeness of men , whereas it was before , and in his not thinking should be no act of obedience , whereby he took the form of a servant , nor can be rightly made as tending to the act of emptying himself , which was not in the opinion of others , but in his own diminution , nor did he conceal or hide himself , but both by miracles and expresse speeches shew himself to be the son of god , john . . and . . and . , , , &c. although for some time he inhibited his disciples to divulge some peculiar revelations , that no impediment might be to the great design of his suffering and rising from the dead , which he should accomplish at jerusalem , according to moses and elias their conference with him , luke . . nor could these inhibitions to some persons be indeed his emptying himself , or making himself of no reputation , or not thinking it robbery or spoil gotten by conquest that he was as god , by not triumphantly boasting of it , but concealing it : for in the event notwithstanding those prohibitions his glory was so known , that immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about galilee , mark . . and he who was forbidden to speak of his curing him , yet went out and began to publish it much , and to blaze abroad the matter , insomuch that jesus could no more openly enter into the city , but was without in desart places , and they came to him from every quarter , mark . . wherefore i conceive , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes a denial of an act elicite of the mind and affections , in esteeming , valuing , affecting , or making account of his being as god , as men do of a prey gotten by violence , which they do so affect or rejoyce in it that they cannot part with it . . of an act imperate of the members in retaining it by claiming or asserting of it , and contending to keep it as a thing which they will not yield up but by force ; and the sense is , christ being in the form of god , that is the glory of his father as associate with him in his empire , did not esteem or hold that his being as god , as if it had been a prey gotten by violence , which he would not relinquish without force ; but &c. which importance of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is agreable to the use of it in this epistle , philip. . . and . . . where his accounting all things as loss and dung notes his esteem and dereliction of them as such , and the like use is elsewhere , thes. . . thes. . . tim. . . and . . heb. . . and . . james . . besides what occurs in other authours . and hereunto i may accommodate some of the words which dr. merick casaubon cites in his diatriba de usu verborum p. . out of cornelius a lapide the jesuite , as chrysostom and vatablus observe , rapere to catch or take by violence signifies by a metalepsis studiously and contentiously to retain something as if it were snatcht or caught by violence 〈◊〉 rapine , as if he said , christ did not catch , nor ambitiously sought , as lucifer , isa. . . the equality of god , not as robbers are wont ( while they being guilty of their evil doing , fear least they should lose it ) studiously ke●p and ambitiously defend the thing caught by them ; but rather of his own accord as a lawful lord deposed it , or let it go and emptied himself : for the adversative particle [ but ] which follows , when he saith , but he emptied himself requires this : otherwise it will not be so much an adversative as an explicative , and will be taken improperly , sed , pro , veruntamen , but , for , nevertheless : which leads us to the consideration of verse . . where i take 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as an adversative rightly rendered [ but ] not [ yet ] or [ nevertheless ] to which answers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the greek , and it notes something contrary to what it is said he did not , verse . which being the holding of his being as god , that which he did is to be conceived contrary to it , expressed by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which our translators render made himself of no reputation , and that is by many conceived to have been by concealing or hiding from men his being as god ; but this , as i shewed before , is not right , sith christ did manifest his glory so as that they beheld his glory as of the only begotten son of god full of grace and truth , john . . and by his words and works did indeed what did , and might make him of great reputation , so that he was a prophet mighty in deed and word before god and all the people , luke . . and is contrary to what is said , john . , . tim. . . god was manifested in the flesh ; and also must restrain this act to the time of his converse with men , whereas the text makes it to have been either antecedent or coincident with his taking the form of a servant , being made in the likeness of men : nor is it said , he diminished his esteem , or begat in others a low opinion of him , but he emptied or evacuated himself , that is , became less full than he was ; which is not rightly referred by grotius , to his living a poor life , but notes some act antecedent to his conversing with men : heinsius likes it better to render it humbled , than emptied himself , alledging chrysostom exercit. saer . l. . c. . but sith the apostle useth that word , verse . as a further act of christs submission of himself beyond that of emptying , verse . they are not rightly confounded , but the emptying is to be taken as an act of privation in some sort of somewhat he had , and the humbling to subjection to what was appointed him to suffer . rightly saith dr hammond in his annotation on philip. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to lessen , diminish ; so pharorinus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to suffer or undergo diminution , so the hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which jerem. . . ( it should be . ) and . . is ●rendered 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to empty , is joel . , . nehem. . . ( mis-printed for nahum . . ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to diminish , and hos. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to make little : a diminution then or lessening , or priva 〈…〉 is expressed by it , which is to be conceived to be the form of god , his being as god , the glory he had in possession with his father , when he commanded with him , but now in respect of use and enjoyment laid it aside , lessened himself from the condition of being lord of all , to that of a subject and ordinary man , as dr. hammond speaks in his paraphrase , which is confirmed in that it is expressed in the words following , taking the form of a servant , being made in the likeness of men , wherein this emptying of himself did consist . . the form of a servant cannot be interpreted merely of christs v●sage or outward aspectable form : for . there is no such outward form which doth distinguish a freeman from a servant or slave , but that the one is often as comely and beautiful as the other . . though it be true that by reason of his suffering , his visage was so marred more than any man , and his form more than the sons of men , as the prophet fore-told , isa. . . yet he took not this form , but it was put on him by his enemies : his whipping , binding and leading away was not the form of a servant , but of a prisoner , and he took not these , but under-went them when they were inflicted on him : his crucifying it is true , was servile supplicium , the punishment of slaves , but it was inflicted on others also ; even then when he was crucified others were crucified with him , not as servants , but as thieves and robbers , and upon him it was inflicted as on a malefactor , so that it was written in the title of his condemnation , the king of the jews , and he was numbered with the transgressors , mark . , . and he was made a curse for us , as it is written , cursed is every one that ●angeth on a tree , gal. . . nor is taking of the form of a servant referred only to his outward poverty , as grotius conceives , that he took on him the form of a servant , in that he had nothing of his own , as he said of himself , mat. . . for that is not the form of a servant , it may be the estate of a son in minority , gal. . . and though it were true , that he had no certain dwelling place , yet he had a bag kept by judas , out of which distribution might be made to the poor , john . . nor is it his humane nature , for then it had been the same with being made in the likeness of men : nor are all mens servants , and he by his super-exaltation , verse . left the form of a servant , not his humane nature : besides the form of a servant which he took was not to men , but to god , as appears , from verse . where it is said , he became obedient unto death : his obedience was to god his father , as appears from verse . therefore god , that is god the father , verse . highly exalted him , for his obedience to him , heb. . . though he were a son , yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered , now rom. . . his servant any one is to whom he obeys : and therefore christ obeying his father is often stiled his servant , isa. . . and . . mat. . . . his taking then the form of a servant was his submission of himself to his fathers command , according to that which he saith , john . . i came down from heaven , not to do mine own will , but the will of him that sent me , and this was his emptying himself : for it is rightly observed by dr. pearson explic. of the creed , art . . p. . of the second edition , that the apostle explains the emptying of himself , by adding the taking the form of a servant , not by way of conjunction , but by way of apposition , though i do not conceive , that signifies a clear identity , as he speaks : but that which follows is right , that it is necessary to observe , that our translation of that verse is not only not exact , but very dis-advantagious to that truth which is contained in it : for we read it thus : he made himself of no reputation , and took upon him the form of a servant , and was made in the likeness of men : where we have two copulative conjunctions , neither of which is in the original text , and three propositions without dependance of one upon the other ; whereas all the words together , are but an expression of christs exinanition , with an explication shewing in what it consisteth : and this also sheweth what was the form of god , and his being as god , like , or equal to god , to wit his dominion and empire with his father , that fulness which he emptyed himself of by taking the form of a servant , which was restored to him when he was highly exalted , made universal head over all , ephes. . , , , . pet. . . heb. . , . and by his being made universal judge , philip. . , , . compared with rom. . , , . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by us translated of men , is without ground conceived to note , not the nature of man simply considered , but the state of men in an abject condition : for , . there is no example in the apostles writings of the use of it in that notion . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the likeness of men , is the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the likeness of flesh , rom. . . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , fashion or shape as a man , which notes humane nature or feature simply considered : nor do the two texts alledged for the interpreting of men as noting an abject condition , serve for that purpose : psal. . . where it is said , ye shall dye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as men , is so far from noting an abject condition that it plainly notes the condition of mortality common to all ; and the emphasis is , that though god said , verse . they were gods , and all the sons of the most high , in respect of their office and dignity , yet they should dye as common men , and fast as one of the princes ; ainsworth's note is [ as earthly men ] as adam ; that is as any other mortal man : so after , as one of the princes , that is , of the other princes of the world : see the like , judges . , , . which also shews us how to understand the expression , judges . , . that sampson said of himself , that he should be weak and be as one of men , where men notes not the state of abject serv●le men , debassd below other men , or peculiar to some men in such a rank or estate , but a state common to other men , not elevated above ordinary men by an heroical spirit , and excellent strength , which is apparent from the expressions , verse . i shall be weak as one of men , and verse . i shall be weak and be as all men , or as tremellius reads it , sicut unus aliquis homo , as some one man , and so notes this , that then he should have but the strength of one man : nor is that conceit of grot●us in his note on philip. . . any better , made in the likeness of men ] when he was like to men , to wit , those first men , that is without sin , cor. . . which hath no example of using [ men ] for [ the first men ] and the apostles expression like to that here , rom. . . rather ins●nuates the contrary , that he was like to sinful men , when he said , god sending his own son , is the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin condemned sin in the flesh : therefore in the likeness of men is to be expounded of them as men according to their humane nature . . likeness of men notes not a bare image or representation , or resemblance as in a vision or picture , but as a child is said to be begotten in his fathers likeness , gen. . . and so the authour to the hebrews , ch . . . saith , in all things it behoved christ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be made li●e unto his brethren , that is , to have the same humane nature in all parts that they have : thus it is said , rom. . . and as esaias said before , except the lord of sabboth had left us a seed , we had been as sodom , and been made like as gomorrah , from isa. . . where to be , and to be like are the same : more to the same purpose may be seen in heinsius aristar . sac . in nonnum c. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is well rendered made in the likeness of men , but it is without example or reason referred to an act of men , as if they by their injurious usage had thus made him to be as ordinary and vulgar men , who are endued with no divine power , or he had by an act of will made himself in his sufferings as such , but it was by the act of gods power , that he was made in the likeness of men , and it was when he assumed a humane nature , or to use the same apostles words , gal. . but when the fulness of time was come , god sent forth his son , made or born of a woman made ( the same word which is used , philip. . . ) under the law , or as it is luke . . the holy ghost shall come upon the● , and the power of the most high shall over-shadow thee : and therefore it is expounded as expressing the time of his taking the form of a servant , and to be read , when he was made in the likeness of men , or as dr. pearson's exposition hath it , he took the form of a servant by being made in the likeness of men , that is as he after expresseth it , when christs body first was framed , even then did he assume the form of a servant : in which expression he doth rightly make this place parallel to that of heb. . . a body hast thou prepared me , which answers to psal. . . concerning which i shall use the words of mr. gataker in his cinnus l. . c. . junius , and after him pis●ator would have the kingly prophet to have had respect to that right of boaring the servants ear , and fastning it to his masters post , who was willing to be still a servant , mentioned exod. . . when under the person of the lord christ , he said , psal. . . thou hast boared mine ears , as if he had said , thou hast addicted me to service and perpetual ministry : whence isa. c. . verse . behold my servant , &c. for which the greeks , and the apostle following them , heb. . . but a body hast thou made up for me , because to wit , then he put on the form of a servant , when he assumed humane flesh , and even the likeness of sinful flesh , rom. . . philip. . . so that the apostle shews not the identity ▪ but the coincidency of these , the taking the form of a servant , being made in the likeness of men : nor can the taking the form of a servant be referred either to the servile or mean condition he had , when he conversed among men ; or his being made in the likeness of men to any subjection of himself consequent on his apprehension , binding and scourging . . the word we translate in fashion , signifies the outward habit of the body , in aristotles categories the shape or figure of it , in geom 〈…〉 the various sc 〈…〉 uations of lines and angles , in rhetorick the various modes or manners of expressions in speech , the gestures of the body , the affections of the mind , the accidents , occurrences , order of things subl●nary , cor . here it notes the shape or fea●ure of a man , and that with reality of humane nature , as form and likeness were also used . . a man notes not either a man in his dejected 〈◊〉 , so as that the sense should be , being found in fashion ( or habite ) as a man ( that is in outward quality , condition , and acting , no whi● differing from a common man ) it being the same with the likeness of men , verse . nor as grotius in his note , schema is here axioma , conspicuous dignity , as often with the greeks , which word also the syriak interpreter here used : and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was seen , as a man , as adam , that is with dominion over all the creatures , the sea , winds , bread , water : for which cause that which was said of adam in psal. . is applied mystically to christ : for neither is [ man ] put any where in the new testament that i find , for [ adam ] but still either adam , or the first man , nor is it here put with the article 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as if it noted a special or singular man by excellency , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a man , that is a man simply considered according to humane nature : nor is the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as here used as noting only likeness without reality of nature , but as sect. . is shewed it to be used , john . . and elsewhere , as a confirming and assuring particle noting certainty : and surely where that in psal. . is applied to christ mystically , heb. . . it notes not man in conspicuous dignity , but rather as contemptible , as the words , what is man that thou art mindful of him ? and thou hast lessened him for a little time below angels shew , nor is it peculiarly meant of adam , but of men , as men , as the word son of man shews , although it be mystically fulfilled in christ alone , and he be by excellency stiled man , or the son of man. . found notes not apprehension of him , when he was betrayed by judas , and laid hold on by the souldiers ; for it was afore his humbling himself and obedience to death , and if the form of a servant did note his whipping , and servile usage which was after his apprehension , and yet is set down by the apostle as antecedent to being found in fashion as a man ; his finding cannot be referred to his apprehension : nor is his being found appropriated to the time of his conspicuity in the exercise of his dominion over the creatures , but the fashion as a man being the same with the likeness of men , it notes only his appearing or being as a man , simply considered among men , the word found frequently noting only being or appearing to be , phil. . . gal. . . cor. . . and . . pet. . . rom. . . luke . , &c. . that of grotius , he humbled himself ] he did not behave himself according to that dignity , but very humbly , so as to wash his disciples feet , john . , . as he emptied , so he humbled , are of the form hiphil , but signifie to exhibit or shew himself such : so also the latins say , to make himself courteous ] is not right , the humbling noting not an exercise of the vertue of humility , but patient subjection to affliction , and that not by shewing humility only but by patient undergoing of it : and thus is it used , phil. . . i know how 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be abased or humbled , as appears by the oposite term to abound , and by other places , where he useth the same of himself , cor. . . and . . and is apparent in that the humbling himself is in the text opposite to his superexaltation , verse . now that doth not oppose the vertue of humility and the exercise of it , which consists with his exaltation but the state of a person debased , which is removed by his super-exaltation : besides this very place is parallel with that , acts . . out of isa. . . where of christ , philip expounds the words of that prophet , he was led as a sheep to the slaughter , and like a lamb dumb before the shearer , so he opened not his mouth ▪ in his humiliation ( the noun in the greek derived from the verb phil. . . and so explains it ) his judgment ( or right ) was taken away , and who shall declare his generation ? for his life is taken away from the earth . lastly , the text shews wherein his humiliation consists , which was in his being obedient unto death , even the death of the crosse , which is not rightly translated by our translators , and became obedient , putting a conjunction copulative without cause as they did , verse . and so obscure the meaning of the apost●e , but it is to be read by apposition , becoming obedient , and so shewing wherein the humbling of himself was . . grotius his note here is not right : he was made obedient to wit to men , jews as well as romans : he opposed not that divine power to them that took him , condemned him , slew him : so great injuries he patiently underwent for the good of men ; for it was shewed before that the obedience was to his father , otherwise there had not been such reason of his super-exaliation , as is expressed , vers . , , . . by this which hath been said , it may appear , that christs being in the form of god ; and not accounting it as a prey to bb equal or as god was afore his being a man , and consequently , that he had a divine being as god afore he was incarnate , and therefore consubstantial to the father as touching his god-head . . it may appear that then christ emptied himself , when he took the form of a servant , who was antecedently in the form of god , when he came not to be ministred to but to minister , and to give his life a ransom for many , mat. . . . that then he did this when he was made in the likeness of men , had a body prepared for him , which proves him to be consubstantial to us according to his man-hood , which thing was to be demonstrated . sect . . some objections against the proof from philip. . , , , . are answered . nevertheless i meet with some arguments to the contrary , which i think fit to set down in the authours words . . he setteth before them christs example exhorting to humility , and therefore the act of christ which he doth exemplify must be manifest : but to whom was , or could that incarnation , which christians commonly talk of , be manifest , when they themselves say it passeth the understanding of angels to comprehend it ? to which i answer : it was manifest by the angels and others revelation , and the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that it was so was comprehensible , as is proved before , although the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or manner how it was be incomprehensible , we are to imitate god in many of his works , the manner of which is incomprehensible by us , as being performed immediately , or by invisible agents , in secret manner ; as magistrates are to imitate god in his righteous judgement , though it be unsearchable in respect of the manner ; parents are to imitate god in his providence for his creatures , though the manner of doing it be indiscernible , and therefore the incomprehensibleness of the incarnation hinders not , but that it being revealed may be propounded as an imitable pattern : yet in this of our apostle it is to be observed that he propounds not only christs incarnation , but also his humiliation in becoming obedient unto death , as an example to be imitated by the philippians . . the apostle speaketh of our lord as a man , in that he giveth him the titles of christ jesus , both which agree to him onely as a man : for he is called jesus as he was a child conceived of the holy spirit in the virgins womb , and brought forth by her , luke . , , , . and christ signifieth the anointed , john . . and accordingly jesus is expressly called the christ of god , luke . . but he was anointed ( as the adversaries themselves will confesse ) as a man , and not as god ; see acts . . whereto i answer , the title philip. . . is given to him , who being in the form of god , took on him the form of a servant , being made in the likeness of men , and therefore as god-man : and though the name jesus was given to him upon his conception , or birth , yet it follows not , therefore only as a man : yea the exposition of the appellation as the same with immanuel , mat. . . the son of god , luke . . doth intimate the title given to him as god , rather than only as man : it is true , his anointing was as man , and that it may be gathered from acts . . yet he who was anointed had a divine nature , and under both these is considered , philip. . . where he is propounded for an example , to wit , in that being in the form of god , he emptied himself , being made in the likeness of men : he who is propounded as an example , was a saviour , and anointed , but yet not to be imitated in his saving and anoi●ting , but in his obedience to his father and condescension to us , by laying aside his glory and maj●sty , and becoming as a servant to his father for us , in which god was with him , and he also god with us , consubstantial with his father afore , with us at his incarnation . . had the apostle here spoken of an assumption of the humane nature , he would not have said , that christ became in the likeness of men , and was found in fashion as a man : for if men ( as the adversaries must hold , when they alledge this place to prove that christ assumed a humane na●ure , and became man ) be here considered according to their essence and nature , this would imply that christ had not the essence and nature , but only the likeness and fashion of a man , and so was not a true and real man : by men therefore are here meant vulgar and ordinary men ; for so this word is elsewhere taken in the scriptures , as psal. . . i have said , ye are gods ; and all of you are children of the most high : but ye shall dye like men , and fall like one of the princes : and judges . . then shall i be weak , and be as one of men ( so the hebrew ekadh haadam signifieth ; ) see also ver . . of the same chapter . i answer hereto , that likeness agrees to substance or essence , and not only to quality or condition , and that in neither of the places alledged men is taken for men as abject , is shewed before : if this objection were of force it would prove christ was made not a really weak man , but in the likeness or fashion of weak men , if [ men ] be considered not as men , but as weak and abject men , philip. . , . which it concern'd the objector to have heeded as well as the adversaries : notwithstanding then this objection men and man , phil. . , . may and must be understood of humane essence and nature , not restrainedly as applied only to men of a vulgar , ordinary , low or weak condition , and christ hence proved to be incarnate , and to have both natures , divine and humane . other arguments against the understanding by the form of god the condition or state of empire , which christ had with his father before his incarnation are in the first part of the disputation of josue placeus of saumur concerning the arguments by which it is evinced christ to have been before his conception , disp . th . out of philip. . . § . . in these words , yet in very deed the form of god seems not to us to be placed in commanding : for we dare not affirm that god was not in that infinite time , in which he lived blessed before any creature was made , in the form of god ; but neither also dare we deny that he shall be in the form of god after the last day , in which time perhaps there will be no need , that he command the creatures : he is no less in the form of god when he ceaseth from commanding , then when he commands as a king sitting on his throne attended by his guard , crowned with majesty and glory , is in the form of a king , even when he commands nothing . to which i answer , if [ the form of god ] noted only the essence of god , not the state and appearance , it might as well be said of christ , when he did not rule as well as when he did , when he shall not as well as when he shall , that he was in the form of god : but sith the term emptying himself notes a diminution in something of what he was , and this is expressed ●o be the form of god , in which he lessened or emptied himself , and that was by taking the form of a servant , and that as a servant to his father , to whom he was obedient , it seems plainly to be intimated , that his being in the form of god , or as god , was his commanding as god with his father : now as the form of a servant notes not the essence of a man , but the state and appearance of a servant , though it presuppose the being of a man , he taking the form of a servant being made in the likeness of men : so the form of god also is to be conceived to note not the essence of god , but the state and appearance of being god as god , or equal to god in his rule , though it presuppose the essence of god which he had ; and he might empty himself of the form of god in this sense , it being only a relative condition supervenient to his essence from the respect to subjects to be ruled , which might be taken or laid aside without alteration in essence : as the assumption of an humane body , contract with his father , heb. . . are ascribed to the second person in the god-head peculiarly without subtraction from , or addition to his essence as god : so we say , that christ is mediatour according to both natures , so as to interceed with his father according to his divine nature , and this had a beginning and shall have an end , and yet his divine essence invariable . as for the similitude of a king as it is used , it is not apposite to the point : the king on his throne that is guarded hath some to command ; yet if he do not rule , but only be in the gesture , and wear the habit , and hold the ensigns of a ruler , may be said to be in the habit , not in the form of a king ; as he that hath the place and cloaths of a servant doth not take the form of a servant , without taking the work of a servant , although he be in the habit of à servant . it is added § . . it is indeed divine to command , not to command simply , but effectually to rule all things : for masters , and lords , and magistrates command also : yea to command seems not to belong to god as god , but as he is lord : there is some difference between god and lord ; for from all eternity god was actually god , but he seems not to have been actually lord , but when he had servants or subjects , to wit creatures : for it is known that a lord and a servant are relatives , whose nature is that they exist together in time ; but although it be a divine thing to command , yet not whatsoever is divine is the form of god. § . . for form is conceived as some permanent thing to command as a transe●nt action : form as something absolute inherent in the thing informed , to command as an action passing from the commander to another : form as that by which the thing is that which it is ; inward indeed as that by which the th●ng is such essentially , but outward as that by which the thing is what outwardly appears : but to command neither is that by which god is god , neither as that by which he is such as he appears to bé . lastly , a form is conceived as that which is before action , for the inward produceth action , the outward the manner of the action : for each thing acts according to its form , and the actions of a king are wont to be agreeable to the form of a king , of a servant to the form of a servant , of a merchant to the form of a merchant , and so in others : to command therefore is an action agreeing to the form of god , not the form of god it self : otherwise christ had in like sort taken and deposed the form of god ; taken it as oft as he commanded either diseases or devils , or the sea , deposed it as often as he ceased from commanding : to end , is it not manifest , that the apostles words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 existing or when he was in the form of god , signifies a state or condition , not action ; a state i say in which he then was when he emtied himself , and which by emtying himself either he deposed or hid , the form of a servant being taken ? to which i answer , if the word [ form ] note a state or condition , as it is granted , and the term [ form of a servant ] also implies ; and it be a divine thing to command or rule all things , then by these grants it may well be expounded [ he was in the form of god ] that is , in the state or condition of an emperour , or co-ruler with his father ; which being a relative state , he might empty himself of , as he may of the state of mediatour ( which yet belongs to his divine nature ) as being a distinct person from the father , although consubstantial or co-essential ; and this state and condition he actually had as soon as any creature was made , the divine essence he had afore any creature was , but the form of god , when there was ; and it might be termed the form by which he appeared to be god , by whom and for whom all things visible and invisible were created , col. . . though not a permanent or absolute form , as the form of a servant is so termed though not a permanent , or absolute state , or the form of a king or merchant , as he speaks : which being rightly understood answers the four things , by which § . . he takes it that he hath proved the form of god to be the divine essence . for , . saith he , in what form of god could he be lord afore he was made a man , but in the very nature and divine essence ? to which i answer , in none , yet the form notes not the essence of god but the state or condition of a lord or commander , as the form of a servant notes not the essence or nature of a man , but the state or condition of a servant , although he were so in no other nature , than that of a man. . saith he , in the nature of god it self sith he is most simple , the external form cannot be separated from the internal . answ. this i suppose is not true , he had the internal form or essence of god afore he was creatour , and shall have it when he shall cease to be actual judge of all . . saith he , the truth of this form proves it : for that form of god in which christ was , was either the true form of god , or the false : if the false , christ was a false god , which even to pronounce my mind abhors : if true , it was not severed from the internal , and essential form of god : for what the external form of any thing as of gold or silver without the inward , that is commonly called false . to which i answer ; it was the true form of god , and yet might be severed , as the form of a mediatour or actual judge of all : nor is his proof right ; for though that which hath the outward form without the inward be alse , yet that which hath the inward without the outward may be true , as gold and silver covered with dirt or drosse , as it is in mines afore it is refinened , is true gold or silver , though the outward form be wanting . . saith he , the equality of christ with god proves it : for the external form of god separated from the internal , if any can be , makes him not equal to god , as neither the outward and appearing form of a king alone , makes one equal to a king. answ. that being in the form of god , christ was equal to god , or as god , may be gathered from the text , philip. . . but not , that the form of god makes him equal to god , which therefore may be though the form of god be laid afide for a time . plaeceus himself in the same place , sect. . saith , when therefore christ was in the form of god , equal to god , ●e emptied himself by taking the form not of an inferiour simply , but of a servant ; so as that whether you look on his humane nature , or his condition , or manner of living , or his office , or obedience , he plainly se●med not equal to god ; not the son of god , but the servant , no otherwise than if as heretofore , when there were two emperours at the same time , one the garment of a servant being taken , and commands being reco●ved from the other , should apply all his endeavour in executing th●m , it might be al●owable to say , that he when he was in the form of an emperour emptied himself , the form of a servant being taken ; which is the same with the sense i give : more to the same purpose he wri●es in his second book , disp. . sect. , . where he makes his obedience mentioned philip. . . to have been in his divine nature voluntary and undue , and his superexaltation answerable . by this explication the form of god , phil. . , . and christs exi●an●tion , and the glory he had with his father before the world was , john . , . may be understood without that imaginary pre-existence of christs soul united with the word and resplendent with celestial glory and beauty among the angels in heaven , fancied by dr. henry moor in his mystery of godliness , first book , chap. . p. . which would infer that christ was not made an entire man at his incarnation , but only imbod●ed or cloathed with flesh , which is inconsistent with that which is said in the same place , 〈◊〉 emptied himself , being made in the likeness of men , so that he was the second adam , or second man , or son of man , the man christ jesus . and how those expressions of christs coming down from heaven , john . , . john . . where he was before , ver . . coming forth from the father , and coming into the world , john . . may be understood without a bo●ily descen● afore his publick preaching , or pre-existence and descent of the soul of the messiah from heaven into an earthly body is shewed before sect. . finis . errata . page . line . read said . p. . l. . r. c●zicenus , p. . l. . r. eq●ivalence , p. . l. . . of , i. ult . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p. l. . dele which , p. . l. ult . r. being , p . l. . r. am●tius , p. . l. ● . read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p. . l. . r. christ , l. . r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p. . l. . r. is the being , p. . l. ul● r. imagined , p. . l. . . subsistence , p. . l. . r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. . . . r. asser — p ▪ . l. . r. ●lassibus , 〈◊〉 . . l. . r. without , p. . l. . dele or . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e psal. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . isa. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes priority of duration . notes for div a -e isa. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . notes for div a -e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , deut. , . is spoken of a servant cohabiting . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , numb . . . sam. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ver . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . grot. annot. ad rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est longissimo tempore , ut tim. . . notes for div a -e athanasius , bazil , nazianzen , epiphanius , chrysostom , hilary , augustin , &c. john . . . notes for div a -e acts . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . sam. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 verse . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 jud. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sustenanc● . so eze 〈…〉 . . the greek hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 o●rs ; thy strong garrisons . wisd. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , substantia tua , grot. natura mannae junius , s●●stantia man a te crea●● : sic m●lim ac●iper● quàm referre ad naturam dei. r 〈…〉 th . 〈…〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hope , 〈◊〉 . . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ●e● . . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , junius ▪ in consiliò meo . ezek. ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , her hope . job . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ezek. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes for div a -e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . chrysost. hom . . in jo. . . annot . on job . . ( as ) sometimes in scripture language sets not out the similitude , but the thing it self , hos. . . and . . john . . notes for div a -e rom. . . the offering of the gentiles is sa d to be accepted being sanctified by the holy ghost . job . . additions to esther ch . . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , numb . . . exod. . . mac. . . prov. . . epiphan . panar . l. . tom . . impress . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 petav. istud diserte significat . grot. in rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hic idem est quod 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . solent enim ist● particulae permisceri , ut cor. . . ubi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 habetur . ephes . . & alibi in . cor. . . idem ●i● valet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quod 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in sequentibus . notes for div a -e vide danielis heinsij arist sac . in non. c. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ●ob . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ●sa . . . job . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 job . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . psal. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ez●k . . a. . hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . gr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ezek. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 isa. . . vide gatakeri cinnum l. . c. . p. , &c. vide gataker ad antonin . l. . sect. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 philip. ch . . ver . , . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 idem valent . tvvo treatises and an appendix to them concerning infant-baptisme. the former treatise being an exercitation presented to the chair-man of a committee of the assembly of divines. the later an examen of the sermon of mr stephen marshall, about infant-baptisme, in a letter sent to him. / by john tombes. b.d. tombes, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t thomason e _ thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]; :e [ ]) tvvo treatises and an appendix to them concerning infant-baptisme. the former treatise being an exercitation presented to the chair-man of a committee of the assembly of divines. the later an examen of the sermon of mr stephen marshall, about infant-baptisme, in a letter sent to him. / by john tombes. b.d. tombes, john, ?- . tombes, john, ?- . excercitation about infant-baptisme. [ ], , [ ], , ( )-( ), - , [ ] p. printed for george whittington, and are to be sold at the signe of the blackmore in bishopsgate-streete., london, : december . . a reply to: marshall, stephen. a sermon of the baptizing of infants (wing m ). the first leaf bears the permission to print. "an excercitation about infant-baptisme" has separate register and t.p. dated , and was also issued separately (wing t ). "an examen of the sermon of mr. stephen marshal, about infant-baptisme" (thomason e. [ ]) has separate dated t.p. and pagination; register is continuous. d is blank. the last four leaves (quire e) contain: latin passages englished in the second treatise. quire (p) (p. ( )-( )) inserted between quire p and q. annotation on thomason copy: "decemb. ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng marshall, stephen, ?- . -- sermon of the baptizing of infants. infant baptism -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ e _ ). civilwar no tvvo treatises and an appendix to them concerning infant-baptisme.: the former treatise being an exercitation presented to the chair-man of tombes, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - pip willcox sampled and proofread - pip willcox text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion tvvo treatises and an appendix to them concerning infant-baptisme . the former treatise being an exercitation presented to the chair-man of a committee of the assembly of divines . the later an examen of the sermon of mr stephen marshall , about infant-baptisme , in a letter sent to him . by john tombes . b. d. prov. . . buy the truth , and sell it not . acts . , , . and the eunuch said , see here is water , what doth hinder me to be baptized ? and philip said , if thou believest with all thine heart , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , thou maist , or it is lawfull . and he answered , and said , i believe that jesus christ is the son of god . and he commanded the charet to stand still , and they went down both into the water , both philip and the eunuch , and he baptized him . bernard . serm. . in cantica . irrident nos quia baptizamus infantes , quòd oramus pro mortuis , quòd sanctorum suffragia postulamus . joan. lodovic . vives comment in augustin . tom. . de civit . dei . lib. . cap. . nemo olim sacro admovebatur baptisterio , nisi adulta jam aetate , & cum idem ipse & sciret quid sibi mystica illa vellet aqua , & se ablui illa peteret , nec semel peteret . cujus rei imaginem adhuc in nostris infantium baptismis videmus . nam rogatur etiam , num infans eo die natus , vel pridie , velitne baptizari , idque ter : pro quo susceptores respondent , velle . audio in quibusdā italiae urbibus morē veterē magna ex parte adhuc conservari . london , printed for george whittington , and are to be sold at the signe of the blackmore in bishopsgate-streete . december . . the author of this examen being ( as i heare ) a godly man , and of the presbyterian judgement , though i am not of opinion with him ( notwithstanding any thing i have here read ) viz. that infants are not the subject of baptisme ; yet the end of his writing , as i conceive , being the provoking of others to write , that so his arguments being answered , himselfe and those that are of his minde may receive satisfaction , i permit it to passe the presse : not doubting but since now ( according to the desire of many ) it is knowne where the chiefe strength of the catapaedobaptists lies , some will be found out in due time to encounter with it . john bachiler . the contents of the first treatise . pag. . sect. . the first argument for infant-baptisme from the interest in the promise , gen. . . examined . pag. . sect. . the second argument for infant-baptisme , from the succession of baptisme to circumcision , examined . pag. . sect. . the third argument from the parity of grace in the new testament to that in the old , examined . pag. . sect. . the argument from acts. . , . for infant-baptisme , examined . pag. . sect. . the argument from cor. . . for infant-baptisme , examined . pag. . sect. . the arguments from matth. . . for infant-baptisme , examined . pag. . sect. . the argument from acts . . &c. for infant-baptisme , examined . sect. . the argument from generall promises for infant-baptisme , examined . sect. . the argument from isai. . . for infant-baptisme , examined . sect. . the argument from cor. . . for infant-baptisme , examined . pag. . sect. . the argument from ephes. . . for infant-baptisme , examined . sect. . the argument from pet. . . for infant-baptisme , examined . sect. . the argument from the churches failing , if infant-baptisme , be not lawfull , examined . pag. . sect. . the argument from heb. . . for infant-baptisme , examined . pag. . sect. . the argument from the institution of christ , matth. . . against infant-baptisme confirmed . pag. . sect. . the argument from john baptist and the apostles practise against infant-baptisme , confirmed . pag. . sect. . the argument from the practise in the age next the apostles against infant-baptisme , confirmed . pag. . sect. . the argument from the wrong originall of infant-baptisme , confirmed against it . pag. . sect. . the argument against infant-baptisme , from humane inventions , occasioned by it , confirmed . pag. . sect. . the argument against infant-baptisme , from the errors occasioned by it , confirmed . sect. . the argument against infant-baptisme from many abuses caused by it , confirmed . pag. . sect. . the argument from unnecessary disputes caused by it against infant-baptisme , confirmed . sect. . the argument against infant-baptisme , from the opposition to it in the middest of popery , confirmed . pag. . sect. . the argument against infant-baptisme , from assertors difference about the ground of it , confirmed . sect. . the argument against infant-baptisme , from it 's voyding the chiefe end of baptisme , confirmed . the contents of the second treatise . part. . concerning the antiquitie of infant-baptisme . pag. . sect. . the prologue of the occasion and end of this writing . pag. . sect. . of the stating the question , partition of the treatise , summe of the answer to the testimonies of antiquitie for infant-baptisme . pag. . sect. . of the pretended testimony of justin martyr . pag. . sect. . of irenaeus his testimony . pag. . sect. . of the supposed testimony of origen . pag. . sect. . of the testimonies of gregory nazianzen , and the greeke church . pag. . sect. . of the testimony of cyprian . pag. . sect. . of the testimony of augustine . pag. . sect. . of the testimonies of hierome , and ambrose . sect. . of the validitie of proofe by these testimonies , and of the evidences that infant-baptisme is an innovation . part. . concerning the prejudices against antipaedobaptists , from their miscarriages . pag. . sect. . of the fitnesse of placing the ●●●●ation of miscarriages of opposers of paedobaptisme . pag. . sect. . of the opposers of infant-baptisme afore baltazar . pag. . sect. . of baltazar pacimontanus . pag. . sect. . of rebaptizing . sect. . of the anabaptists in germany , and antiprelatists in england . pag. . sect. . of anabaptists opposing magistracy . pag. . sect. . of the hindering of reformation by anabaptisme . pag. . sect. . the antipaedobaptists principle overthrows not the lords day , the paedobaptists principle reduceth judaisme , and popish ceremonies , and addes to the gospel . pag. . sect. . of the evill of separating from the ministery and communion of christians , by reason of this opinion . pag. . sect. . of the condition into which the opinion of antipaedobaptisme puts the infants of believers , of originall sin , salvation out of the church and covenant of grace . part. . concerning the arguments from scripture for infant-baptisme . pag. . sect. . of the connexion between the covenant and the seale . pag. . sect. . of the first conclusion concerning the identity of the covenant of grace , for substance to jews and gentiles . pag. . sect. . of the meaning of the second conclusion . pag. . sect. . that the covenant of grace is not made to believers and their seede . pag. . sect. . it is not in gods church like other kingdomes . pag. . sect. . of the texts , which are acts . , . luk. . . pag. . sect. . of the text , rom. . . pag. . sect. . of the text , cor. . . pag. . sect. . of the succession of baptisme , into the place , roome and use of circumcision . pag. . sect. . of the notion under which and the reason for which persons were circumcised , shewing that all persons that were circumcised were not in the covenant of grace . pag. . sect. . of the priviledges of believers under the gospel , and whether the want of infant-baptisme , be want of a priviledge of the covenant of grace , which the jewes had . pag. . sect. . that the command to circumcise male infants , is not virtually a command to baptize infants . pag. . sect. . that matth. . . is not a command to baptize infants , but contrary to it . pag. . sect. . of examples in scripture of baptizing infants , particularly of baptizing housholds . pag. . sect. . of an infants capacitie of inward grace , the text , matth. . and of the inconsequence of paedobaptisme thereon . part. . concerning the objections against infant-baptisme . pag. . sect. . of the first objection from institution , matth. . . and the practise of john baptist , and the apostles . pag. . sect. . of the second objection , and therein of the condition prerequisite to baptisme . pag. . sect. . of the third so called objection , and therein of the knowledge requisite concerning the person to be baptized . pag. . sect. . of the fourth objection , and therein of the stipulation as baptisme . pag. . sect. . of the fifth objection , and therein of the benefit that comes by infant-baptisme . pag. . sect. . of the sixth objection , and therein of infant-communion by vertue of their being in the covenant , and the lords supper succeeding the passeover . pag. . sect. . of the first use , and the anabaptists supposed blouds sentence . pag. . sect. . the epilogue , containing some expressions and motions of the author . the content of the appendix . pag. . that colos. . , . proves not infant-baptisme . errata . treatise . pag. . line . rationals , read rationale , p. . l. . . r. . p. . l . minor , r. major . p. . l. . put such back . r. put back such p. . l. . dele ( ) p. . margin r. . p. . l. . baptisme , r. baptisme , may be supplied p. . l. . as well , r. as well as . treatise . p. . l. . lived anno , r. lived about anno p. . l. . differing , r. differring . p. . their , r. them , p. . l . th r. cth p. . l. . r. . l. . arian , r. aerian p l. . character , r. charter . p. . l. . sectare , r sect p. . in the margin , sminati , r. seminati . l. words , r. word . p. . l. . . r. . p. . l. . thee , r. bee . p. . in the margin , . r. . p. l. . invsible , r. invisible l. . visible , r. invisible , p. ( . ) l. . believers , r. unbelievers . p. . l. . anology , r. analogy in some other thing p . l . sort of , r sort dele of p. . l. . second , r. first . p . l. , . . r. . p. . l. . opposition , r. opposition p. . l. . which now r. which is now . p. . l. . . r. . p. . l. . due . r. the l . vented , r. vented a conceit p. . l . a rule , r a title p. in the margin , baley , r. baylie p. . l. r. . l. . r. . p. , l. . doth here , r. doth not here . p. . l. . . r. . p. . l. . . r. p. . l. . this r. the p. . l. . l. . r. . an exercitation about infant-baptisme ; presented in certaine papers , to the chair-man of a committee of the assembly of divines , selected to consider of that argument , in the yeers , , and . with some few emendations , additions , and an answer to one new objection . translated out of latine , by the author . published according to order . london , printed by m. s. for george whittington , . an exercitation concerning infant-baptisme . the present tenent , according to which infant-baptisme is practised , is , that the infants born of a believer , are universally to be baptized . this doctrine and practice conformable , is made doubtfull to me , by these arguments . arg. . that which hath no testimony of scripture for it , is doubtfull . but this doctrine of infant-baptisme , hath no testimony of scripture for it ; ergo , it is doubtfull . the minor is proved by examining the places that are brought for it , which are these : gen. . , &c. acts . , . cor. . . mark . . . . acts . . . cor. . . the argument from gen. . , &c. is almost the first and last in this businesse ; and therefore is the more accurately to be examined ; but it hath so many shapes , that i may here take up that speech , with what knot shall i hold shape-changing proteus ? but in the issue , it falls into one or other of these forms : the first thus ; to whom the gospel-covenant agrees , to them the sign of the gospel-covenant agrees also . but to the infants of believers the gospel-covenant agrees ; therefore to them the sign of the gospel-covenant agrees , and consequently baptisme . the minor is proved from gen. . . where god promiseth to abraham , i will be a god to thee , and to thy seed after thee . i answer , that we may meet with this argument , divers things are to be examined , which are taken for granted : first , whether the gospel-covenant , and the covenant made with abraham be the same : secondly , what seed of abraham it is , of which it is said , i will be a god to thee and to thy seed : thirdly , whether there be the same reason of circumcision and of baptisme in signing the gospel-covenant : fourthly , whether these terms be convertible [ federate , and to be signed ] . of these , i say ; . the covenant made with abraham , is not a pure gospel-covenant , but mixt , which i prove ; the covenant takes its denomination from the promises ; but the promises are mixt , some euangelicall , belonging to those to whom the gospel belongeth , some are domestique , or civill promises , specially respecting the house of abraham , and policy of israel ; ergo . that was euangelicall which we reade , gen. . . i have made thee a father of many nations ; and that which we find , gen. . . so shall thy seed be ; in which it is promised , that there shall be of the nations innumerable that shall be abrahams children by believing , rom. . , . it was euangelicall , which we find , gen. . . & gen. . . and in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed ; for in these is promised blessing to believers , of whom abraham is father , gal. . , . and by christ , who is the seed of abraham , gal. . . acts . . domestique and civill promises were many ; of the multiplying the seed of abraham , the birth of isaac ; of the continuation of the covenant with isaac ; of the coming of christ out of isaac ; the bondage of the israelites in egypt , and deliverance thence ; of possessing the land of canaan , gen. . . . gen. . , . . . act. . , , , , . and many other places . yea , it is to be noted , that those promises which were euangelicall , according to the more inward sense of the holy ghost , do point at the priviledges of abrahams house , in the outward face of the words ; whence it may be well doubted , whether this covenant made with abraham , may be called simply euangelicall , and so pertain to believers , as such , although there be euangelicall promises in that covenant , pertaining to all believers , as believers . there were annexed to the covenant on mount sinai , sacrifices pointing at the sacrifice of christ , and yet we call not that covenant simply euangelicall , but in some respect . secondly , the seed of abraham is many wayes so called : first , christ is called the seed of abraham , by excellency , gal. . . secondly , all the elect , rom. . . all believers , rom. . , . . , . are called the seed of abraham , that is , the spirituall seed . thirdly , there was a naturall seed of abraham , to whom the inheritance did accrue ; this was isaac , gen. . . fourthly , a naturall seed , whether lawfull , as the sons of keturah , or base , as ishmael , to whom the inheritance belonged not , gen. . . but no where do i find , that the infants of believers of the gentiles are called abrahams seed , of the three former kinds of abrahams seed , the promise recited , is meant , but in a different manner thus : that god promiseth , he will be a god to christ , imparting in him blessing to all nations of the earth , to the spirituall seed of abraham in euangelicall benefits , to the naturall seed inheriting , in domestick and politicall benefits . . that the promise of the gospel , or gospel-covenant , was the same in all ages , in respect of the thing promised , and condition of the covenant , which we may call the substantiall and essentiall part of that covenant , to wit , christ , faith , sanctification , remission of sins , eternall life ; yet this euangelicall covenant had divers forms in which these things were signified , and various sanctions , by which it was confirmed : to adam , the promise was made under the name of the seed of the woman , bruising the head of the serpent ; to enoch , noah , in other forms ; otherwise to abraham , under the name of his seed , in whom all nations should be blessed ; otherwise to moses , under the obscure shadows of the law ; otherwise to david , under the name of a successor in the kingdome ; otherwise in the new testament , in plain words , cor. . . heb. . . it had likewise divers sanctions . the promise of the gospel was confirmed to abraham by the sign of circumcision , and by the birth of isaac ; to moses by the paschall lamb , and the sprinkling of blood on the book , the rain of mannah , and other signs ; to david by an oath ; in the new testament , by christs blood , cor. . . therefore circumcision signified and confirmed the promise of the gospel , according to the form and sanction of the covenant with abraham , baptisme signifies and confirms the same promise according to the form , sanction and accomplishment of the new testament : now these forms and sanctions differ many wayes , as much as concerns our present purpose in these : first , circumcision confirmed not only euangelicall promises , but also politicall ; and if we may believe mr. cameron , in his theses of the threefold covenant of god , thesi . . circumcision did primarily separate the seed of abraham from other nations , sealed unto them the earthly promise ; secondarily , it did signifie sanctification : but baptisme signifies only euangelicall benefits . secondly , circumcision did confirm the promise concerning christ to come out of isaac ; baptisme assures christ to be already come , to have been dead , and to have risen again , thirdly , circumcision belonged to the church , constituted in the house of abraham , baptisme to the church gathered out of all nations ; whence i gather , that there is not the same reason of circumcision and baptisme , in signing the euangelicall covenant ; nor may there be an argument drawn from the administration of the one to the like manner of administring the other . . that some there were circumcised , to whom no promise in the covenant made with abraham did belong ; of ishmael , god had said , that his covenant was not to be established with him , but with isaac ; and yet he was circumcised , gen. . , . . rom. . , , . gal. . , . the same may be said of esau : all that were in abrahams house , whether strangers , or born in his house , were circumcised , gen. . , . of whom neverthelesse , it may be doubted , whether any promises of the covenant made with abraham , did belong to them ; there were other persons , to whom all , or most of the promises in the covenant pertained , that were not circumcised ; this may be affirmed of the females , coming from abraham , the infants dying before the eighth day , of just men , living out of abrahams house , as melchisedech , lot , job . if any say , that the females were circumcised in the circumcision of the males , he saith it without proof ; and by like , perhaps greater , reason it may be said , that the children of believers are baptized in the persons of their parents , and therefore are not to be baptized in their own persons . but it is manifest that the jewes comprehended in the covenant made with abraham , and circumcised , were neverthelesse not admitted to baptisme by john baptist , and christs disciples , till they professed repentance , and faith in christ . hence i gather , first , that the right to euangelicall promises , was not the adequate reason of crrcumcising these or those , but gods precept , as is expressed , gen. . . gen. . . secondly , that those terms are not convertible , [ federate and to be signed ] . whereupon i answer to the argument : first , either by denying the major , if it be universally taken , otherwise it concludes nothing : or by granting it with this limitation ; it is true of that sign of the covenant which agrees universally in respect of form and sanction , to them that receive the gospel , but it is not true of that sign of the covenant , which is of a particular form or sanctior of which sort is circumcision . secondly , i answer by denying the minor , universally taken , the reason is , because those children only of believing gentiles , are abrahams children , who are his spirituall seed , according to the election of grace by faith , which are not known to us , but by profession , or speciall revelation . the second argument is thus formed : to whom circumcision did agree , to them baptisme doth agree , but to infants circumcision did agree , therefore also baptisme . the major is thus proved : if the baptisme of christ succeed into the place of circumcision , then baptisme belongs to them that circumcision belonged to ; but the antecedent is true , therefore also the consequent . the minor is proved to be true , because , colos. . , . it is said the colossians were circumcised , because they were buried with christ in baptisme . for answer : this argument supposeth baptisme to succeed in the place of circumcision , which may be understood many wayes . . so as that the sense be , that those persons be to be baptized , which heretofore by gods command were to be circumcised , and in this sense the argument must proceed , if it conclude to the purpose ; but in this sense it is false , for no females were to be circumcised , which yet are to be baptized , acts . , . and believers out of abrahams house , as lot , melchisedech , job , were not to be circumcised , but believing gentiles are universally to be baptized . . it may be so understood , as if the rite of baptisme then began , when the rite of circumcision did , or was of right to end ; but this is not to be said : for john baptist and the disciples of christ baptized , joh. . , . before circumcision of right ceased , and they who first were circumcised , were after baptized , being converted to the faith , as is manifest concerning paul , phil. . . acts . . . it may be understood , as if baptisme did succeed into the place of circumcision , in respect of its signification , which is true in some things : first , it is true that both signified the righteousnesse of faith , rom. . . rom. . . gal. . . pet. . . secondly , it is true , both signified sanctification of the heart , and this is all that may be concluded out of the place alledged , col. . , . to which i think meet to adde ; that if the text be looked into , that place speaks not of any circumcision , but of christs circumcision in whom we are compleat , and by whose circumcision we are said to put off the body of the sins of the flesh ; nor doth the text say , we are circumcised , because we are baptized ; but we are compleat in christ , because we are circumcised in him , and buried with him in baptisme , in which , or in whom , ye are also risen together , through the faith of the operation of god that raised him from the dead . in some things baptisme doth not succeed into the place of circumcision , in respect of signification : for , first circumcision did signifie christ to come of isaac , according to the flesh , gen. . . . but baptisme doth not signifie this , but points at the incarnation , death , and resurrection of christ . secondly , circumcision was a sign that the israelites were a people separated from all nations , rom. . . but baptisme signifieth , that all are one in christ , gal. . . thirdly , circumcision signified that moses law was to be observed , gal. . . but baptisme doth signifie that moses his law is made voyd , and the doctrine of christ to be retained , acts . . fourthly , circumcision did sign the promise of the land of canaan , baptisme eternall life by christ . from hence i answer to the argument : first , by denying the major of the fore syllogisme . secondly , to the conditionall syllogisme , by denying the consequence of the major , if the antecedent be understood of succession , in the third sense , in respect of some signification granted ; but if the succession be understood in the first , second , or third sense , in respect of other significations , the minor is denied ; the proof from col. . , . is already answered . and indeed , if this argument be not warily , and restrainedly understood , an egge is laid , out of which manifest judaisme may be hatched , but if it be taken restrainedly , no more follows thence , but that baptisme and circumcision in some things , signifie the same , which is more plainly said of noahs flood , pet. . . of the red sea , and the cloud that guided , cor. . . and yet we say not that baptisme succeeded into their place , much lesse do we inferre any rite to be instituted in their stead , respecting the same persons ; yea verily it is to be seriously thought on . . that by such arguments drawn from analogies , not conceived by the holy spirit , but drawn out of our wit , a new kinde of instituting rites , to wit , from analogies , is brought in , besides our lords precepts and the apostles examples . . this being once laid , by like manner of argumentation , it will be lawfull to bring into the christian church , under other names and forms , the whole burthen of jewish rites ; yea , almost , out of what you will , to conclude what you will ; for who shall put a bound to mens wits faining analogie , when they go beyond the lords precepts , and the apostles examples ? it is well known , that the divine appointment of tythes to be paid , and many other things , in the writings of divines , are asserted by this kinde of argument , besides the rule of the lords precept and the apostles example . . hereby will the opinion of papists be confirmed , who affirm from cor. . . the sacraments of the jewes , to be types of the sacraments of christians , which is rejected by divines that dispute against bellarmine . . this manner of arguing will countenance the arguments of the papists for an universall bishop , because there was an high priest amongst the jews ; for sacrificing priests , because the jews had such ; for a linen garment at masse , because there was such among the jews ; for holy water , purification of women , easter , pentecost , and many more such ceremonies , for which the papist do in like manner argue , as appears out of durandus rationals , and other interpreters of rituals among the papists ; yea , what hindreth , but we may give children the lords supper , if we argue this way , sith samuel , jesus christ under age , were partakers of the passeover , and of right , all the males were to appeare thrice in the yeer , before the lord ; and therefore it is certain they did eat the passeover ; and it shall be after shewed , that the place , cor. . . will not avoyd this inconvenience , if the text , matth. . . may be shifted off , as paedo-baptists use to do . lest any man take this for a light suggestion , i will adde , that grave , godly and learned men , have often warned , that we are to take heed , that we do not rashly frame arguments from analogie : among others in their late writings , in the english tongue , john paget , in his defence of church-government , part . . chap. . pag. . and elsewhere , john ball in his reply to the answer of the new-england elders , unto the . positions , posit . . pag. . lastly , it is to be considered again and again , how by these argumentations , consciences may be freed from the danger of wil-worship and polluting so remarkable an ordinance of christ as baptisme is , specially this care lies on them , who by prayers , sermons , writings , covenants and oaths , do deterre christians from humane inventions , in gods worship diligently , and as is to be hoped sincerely . the third argument is thus framed . if baptisme be not granted to the infants of believers , then the grace of god will be more restrained in the new testament then in the old : but this is not to be affirmed ; therefore baptisme is to be granted to infants of believers . answ. . if this argument be of any weight , it will prove that the grace of god is straitened , because we give not the lords supper to children , to whom the passeover was given , as appears by that which was above said . . the grace of god is not tied to sacraments , neither do sacraments give grace by the work done , and therefore grace is not restrained , though sacraments be never granted , grace is not denyed to an excommunicated person , who is inhibited the lords supper , the grace of god is free , whether we understand it of the divine affection , or the effects of it ; nor can be made larger or narrower by our act . . yet it is not absurd to say , that in respect of some priviledges , the grace of god is more contracted in the new testament then in the old : for instance , no family hath now the priviledge that was granted to abrahams family , that out of it christ should be born ; no man besides abraham is called the father of the faithfull ; no woman besides one , the mother of christ ; neverthelesse , simply the grace of god is said to be larger in the new testament , by reason of the revelation of the gospel imparted to all nations , the more abundant communication of the holy spirit , and more plain manifestation of the mysterie of the gospel : i would have it weighed , whether those phrases of the apostle , rom. . . as the naturall branches , ver. . the wilde olive by nature , were 't graffed contrary to nature . these which be naturall branches , do not sufficiently imply , that the jewes children by their birth had a priviledge beyond the gentiles children . thereupon i answer to the argument : first , by denying the consequence of the major , for the reason given : secondly , by denying the minor , if it be understood of straitning the grace of god , in respect of some priviledge , although the assumption may be granted , if understood of the straitning gods grace simply . the summe of the answer to the arguments , drawn from gen. . . is this : the sacraments are not to be administred according to rules taken from our reasonings , but gods appointment . rightly doth mr. ball forenamed , in the book forenamed , posit. . & . pag. . say , but in whatsoever circumcision and baptisme , do agree or differ , we must look to the institution , and neither stretch it wider , nor draw it narrower then the lord hath made it , for he is the institutor of the sacraments according to his own good pleasure ; and it is our part to learn of him , both to whom , how , and for what end the sacraments are to be administred , how they agree , and wherein they differ , in all which we must affirm nothing , but what god hath taught us , and as he hath taught us . the argument from acts . , . may be thus formed : to whom the promise is made , they may be baptized ; but to the infants of believers the promise is made , therefore they may be baptized . the minor is proved from the words of vers . . for the promise is made to you and to your children . that an answer may be fitted to this argument : . it is to be observed , that the promise made , is the sending of jesus christ , and blessing by him , as it is expounded , acts . , . acts . , . rom. . , . . that the text saith , the promise was made to them he spake to , and their children , then to them that are afarre off , who , whether they be gentiles , who are said to be afarre of , ephes. . . or jewes , in future ages and generations , as beza thinks , are limited by the words closing the verse , as many as the lord our god shall call , which limitation plainly enough shewes the promise to appertain to them not simply as jewes , but as called of god , which is more expresly affirmed , acts . . to you , god having raised up his son jesus , sent him to blesse you , in turning away every one of you from his iniquity : or as beza , every one of you turning your selves from your iniquities ; therefore the promise here is not said to be made but with condition of calling , and faith , which may be confirmed aboundantly from rom. . , . . gal. . . . . . that peter , vers. . doth exhort to repentance and baptisme together , and in the first place perswades to repentance , then baptisme , which shewes repentance to be in order before baptisme . . that mention is made of the promise , not as of it self , yeelding right to baptisme without repentance , but as a motive , inciting together , to repentance and baptisme . whereupon it is answered : . that the major is to be limited , to whom the promise is made , they may be baptized , to wit , when they are called , and have shewed signes of repentance ; if it be taken without limitation , it is to be denied . . by denying the minor , if it be universally taken of all infants of believers , of whose baptisme the question is ; as for the text , it speaks not expresly of infants , but of children indefinitely ; nor of the children of the gentiles at all , ( of whom we are ) but of the children of the jews , and therefore , if that promise be extended to infants , which doth not appear , the promise is to be expounded so , as to note something peculiar to the jews infants . the argument from the place , cor. . . may be thus formed : they who are holy with covenant-holinesse , may be baptized : but the infants of a believer are holy , with a covenant-holinesse ; for it is said in the text , but now they are holy ; therefore they may be baptized . i answer : . the minor is not true , universally understood , as is manifest from rom. . . where it is said , if the first fruits be holy , so is the lump : if the root be holy , so are the branches . the sense is , that abraham is the first fruits , and holy root ; the elect israelites are the branches and lump ; so that it followes , that the elect of the israelites not yet called , are holy in respect of the covenant , and are not yet therefore to be baptized ; for although they may be said to be holy in regard of the covenant , of old entred into with abraham , and the gracious respect of god to them , to be manifested in opportune time , yet in their present state , before calling , they denying christ , neither infants nor grown men are to be baptized , unlesse we would have the branches broken off to be graffed into the church ; and therefore , although the sense were in the place of cor. . . your children are holy with covenant-holinesse , by reason of gods gracious favour to be manifested in due time , yet it will not follow , that they are to be baptized , who have not yet yeelded any shewes of divine grace . . the minor is not proved from the place alledged : for it doth not speak of federall holinesse , but of holinesse , that i may so call it , matrimoniall , so that the sense is , your children are holy , that is , legitimate . whether any in the ages before , the age last past , expounded it , of federall holinesse , as they call it , i am not yet certain : as for the exposition of that place , of that holinesse , i called matrimoniall , of it the place is expounded by aquinas , in his commentary upon the place , and perhaps by others , whom i have not yet had time to look into , but i think best to set down the words of joachimus camerarius , about this matter , in his commentary on the new testament , lately printed at cambridge ; [ for the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified ] an usuall change of the tense , that is , is sanctified , in the lawfull use of marriage , for without this ( he saith ) it would be , that their children should be unclean , that is , infamous , and not legitimate , who so are holy , that is , during the marriage are without all blot of ignominy : moreover , melancthon in his commentary on the place , therefore paul answers , that the marriages are not to be pulled asunder , for their unlike opinions of god , if the impious person do not cast away the other ; and for comfort he addes as a reason , the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife , of which speech divers interpretations are made , but the true and naturall is this , as elsewhere , he saith , meat is sanctified , for that which is holy in use , that is granted to believers from god , so here he speaks the use of marriage to be holy , and to be granted of god , [ else were ] the interpretation of the sept. so speaks unclean , it calls unclean that which is prohibited ; as wee say swines flesh was unclean by the law of moses , that is , prohibited , or a woman brought to bed , is unclean , that is , whose touching is forbidden . the connexion of the argument is this : if the use of marriage should not please god , your children would be bastards , and so unclean ; but your children are not bastards , therefore the use of marriage pleaseth god : how bastards were unclean in a peculiar manner , the law shewes , deut. . let not a bastard enter into the congregation of the lord , to the tenth generation , that is , let him be admitted to no function in the church ; therefore this is the most plain meaning , children are not bastards , nor to be kept away , as the law of moses kept them away ; therefore also the use of marriage pleaseth god . musculus comment . on cor. . . hath these words ; [ is sanctified ] this expresseth the reason of that which he saith , let him not put her away ; perhaps , the more unskilfull christians thought such dwelling together to be unclean and unlawfull ; and they did fear , lest they should be made one body with the yoak-fellow that was an idolater , as he that is joyned to an harlot , is made one body with the harlot , and so of the members of christ , should make them members of an idolater , which hath more sin then if they should make them the members of an harlot ; for this cause , he saith , for the unbeliever is sanctified , &c. that is , for the unbelieving husband in the wife , that is , in the conjunction of the wife , which is by marriage , even long ago hath been cleansed by vertue of marriage ; so that his conjunction and copulation , hath nothing unclean : so in like manner also , the unbelieving wife , by reason of lawfull wedlock , in which shee is joyned to the man , even long ago is cleansed , that the believer is not defiled , if she live together with him ; for the word holinesse here , is taken for the cleannesse of the marriage-bed which he hath by the tradition of god , therefore he saith , else your children should be unclean , but now they are holy ; he should have said , but now they are clean , if to be holy , and clean , in this place were not the same . therefore the most plain understanding of this place is , first , in that we understand not the word holinesse , of that holinesse which is by the covenant of god , or the spirit of faith , by which believers are sanctified , as a people of god , but of the holinesse of the conjugall bed , otherwise it will bring forth a troublesome dispute , how an unbelieving husband may be said to be sanctified . then , that we attribute this sanctification that is cleannesse , not to the faith of the believing yoak-fellow , but to the marriage , by reason of the appointment of god ; with hierome , who saith , because by gods appointment , marriage is holy ; and ambrose , who hath it thus , the children are holy , because they are born of lawfull marriage ; therefore , that in the wife and in the husband , is not to be read with the addition of believer , as the old interpreter hath it , but simply , as the greek hath it ; if any thing be to be added , it is better to be added , the lawfull wife or husband , that we may understand , that the unbelieving husband is cleansed in his lawfull wife , that is , by vertue of their lawfull marriage , is not unclean , but clean , as far as appertains to the law of cohabitation of marriage , although he be impure so far as appertains to the commerce of religion , of which the word of deacons in the church was , let the prophane depart , the holy draw neer . [ else your children ] ambrose so expounds this particle [ else ] that is , if thou the believing husband shouldst put away thy unbelieving wife , and marry another , your children should be unclean , because you should be made adulterers , but [ now ] that is , if thou retain thy unbelieving wife , they are holy , because they are born of a lawfull marriage . but it is more plain , that we understand the apostle , to have respect to the sanctimony of marriage , even of them who without the faith of christ , are conjoyned in marriage , as if he had said , unlesse marriage were holy and clean , even between unbelievers , what other thing would follow , then that all the children of infidels are bastards , and unclean ? but far be it from us to say so ; they are holy , for they are born of lawfull marriage . ambrose looks to that which he said , let him not put her away ; the other exposition to that which he said , the unbelieving husband is sanctified in the wife . i have sometimes abused the present place against the error of anabaptists , keeping back infants of christians from baptisme , thinking that speech , but now are they holy , to be the same , as , they are the people of god , by reason of the believing parents ; but although it be sure in it self , that the children of believers , are both holy , and pertaining to the people of god , by reason of the participation of the covenant , and so are partakers of baptisme , as the sign of the covenant , yet the present place makes nothing to this cause , in which the sanctimony of the covenant and people is not meddled with ; but the cleannesse of lawfull marriage even of infidels : for not only to children , to whom perhaps , the holinesse of a believing parent , may so appertain , that for it they may be partakers of the covenant , but also to unbelieving husbands and wives is sanctimony ascribed , although they oppose the christian faith ; nor is any other holinesse or cleannesse of children meddled with , then that which agrees also to unbelieving parents , for to them , no other agrees , then that which is by lawfull marriage . there 's other testimonies out of scripture , from whence the anabaptists may be convinced of error ; so that there is no need to use this place against them . thus far camerarius , melancthon , musculus . perhaps some one will object , that no where is holy , the same with legitimate : to which i answer , that holinesse is put for chastity , is manifested from thes. . . . . and the word [ sanctified ] in this place , what doth it found else , then [ is lawfully coupled ] and [ is sanctified ] tim. . . what else doth it signifie , then [ is lawfully used ] ? at which place beza hath these words , therefore meats are said to be sanctified , which we use lawfully , and with gods good leave ; he alludes to legall purifications , and the difference between clean and unclean meats : and why may not by a like allusion , unclean , be put for bastards , and holy for legitimate ? for the bastard is among the unclean , deut. . . to which i may adde what john calvin hath on mal. . . wherefore hath god made one ? to wit , seeking a seed of god ; a seed of god is here taken for legitimate , as the hebrewes do name that divine whatsoever doth excell , yea , they call that divine which is pure from any fault and spot : therefore he sought a seed of god , that is , appointed marriage ; from whence should be born a legitimate and clean off-spring . secretly therefore doth the prophet here shew , that they are all bastards , that shall be born by polygamy , because they neither can , nor ought to be counted legitimate sons , but they who are begotten according to gods institution , but where the husband violates the faith given to the wife , and takes to himself another , as he perverts the order of marriage , so also he cannot be a lawfull father . thus calvin , and in like manner cameron praelect. in mat. . . interprets that text . lastly , if the words of the text be weighed , this will seem the only and genuine sense ; for the question which the apostle resolves was , whether the conjunction was to be retained of the believing yoak-fellow , with the unbelieving ? the reason of doubting was , because that conjunction seems impure , by reason of the impurity of the unbelieving yoak-fellow ; the apostle answers , not so : for the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified in the wife . to draw out the sense of this place , it is to be noted , that [ the unbelieving husband ] sounds the same , as if he had said , [ the husband , though he be an unbeliever ] ; for the scope requires that this be the sense , the husband , though he be an unbeliever , yet is sanctified in the wife . . that it is not said , in the believing wife , nor in the believing husband ( though i deny not beza observed some such thing in the clermont copy , and elsewhere ) : for the copies do not so reade , and it seems the apostle of purpose so spake , that the reason of sanctification may be intimated to be taken , not from the faith of the yoak-fellow , but conjugall relation . . [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] is not rightly rendred , [ by ] in the vulgar and our english translation , as if the sense were , that the faith of the wife , were the cause of sanctifying the unbelieving husband , for this sense cannot be fastened to this place ; for no man will say , the faith of the unbelieving wife , sanctifies the unbelieving husband federally ; so that the unbelieving husband should be capable of baptisme by his wifes faith , ( which yet , by the good leave of such men be it said , doth as well follow from this place , as that the son is federally holy , and capable of baptisme , for the faith of the parent ) neither can it be said , that the parent is sanctified with spirituall sanctification by the faith of the wife ; for how ever it be determined that faith is the cause of inward sanctification , yet it is certain that the faith of one is not the cause of the sanctification of another , i mean , the next and effectuall cause . nor doth this sense pertain hither , the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife , that is , is renued in the spirit of his mind , by the diligence of his wife , instructing him in the faith , as she is said to save , vers. . for this sanctification being put , the children may remain impure , and not holy ; the contrary whereof is here asserted : and this sanctification is contingent , it may be , or it may not be , as is manifest from vers . . for how knowest thou ? but in this place the sanctification is certain and necessary , else it should not take away the doubt , about the retaining the conjunction ; nor doth the sense pertain hither , the unbelieving husband is sanctified in the wife , that is , the wife , because she hath faith , hath used the unbelieving husband without all scruple of conscience ; for the contrary was the occasion of this discourse ; nor doth this belong a whit to the impurity or holinesse of the children ; therefore more rightly [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] is rendred in latine in the dative , [ to the wife ] for the particle {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , is often so used , as gal. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to me , pet. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to faith , acts . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to men ; and cor. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , is rendred by beza unto peace : the sense then is , that the unbelieving husband is sanctified to the wife , that is , is not coupled as an unclean fornicator , but as a lawfull husband , and that copulation is holy , that is , remains chast , the unbeliever remaining a husband ; for an unbeliever is a husband , and therefore the use of him is chast , [ else ] the apostle proves what he had said , of the sanctification of the unbelieving husband , to the wife , and the order being turned , by an argument from an absurdity , which may be reduced unto this form : if the unbelieving husband be not sanctified to the wife , and the order turned , then your children should be unclean ; but your children are not unclean , but holy ; ergo . [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , else ] plainly shewes , that absurdity would follow , if this were not granted , that the unbelieving husband is sanctified to the wife , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , otherwise certainly , as beza renders it , your children are unclean , that is , your children which you have have hitherto begotten , should be unclean , that is , bastards , but now they are holy : [ but now ] beza rightly notes it , is not an adverb of time , but a conjunction , that is wont to be used in the assumptions of arguments , and the sense is , [ but now ] that is , but for as much as the unbelieving husband is sanctified to the wife , that is , in respect of the use of the wife , your children are holy , that is , lawfully begotten and born ; but if it be granted the sanctification is understood of lawfull and chast use , ( which is necessarily to be yeelded ) and yet the uncleannesse and holinesse be understood of that which they call federall , then this will follow , that the children born of wives superadded to the first , incestuous , concubines and harlots are not within the covenant , neither to be circumcised nor baptized , whereas not only ishmael by abraham , but also many sons of jacob , the sons of judah , pharez and zarah by thamar , were circumcised ; nor doth custome or canon put such back children from baptism ; but in very deed , this cannot be the sense , for only holines , which i call matrimoniall , of the children , followeth from matrimoniall lawfull copulation , which is here asserted , and only uncleannesse opposite to legitimation , follows illegitimate , and polluted copulation , and of these alone there was doubt amongst the corinthian christians , and therfore the apostles resolution . nor yet , as beza inferres , if this sense be put , should the apostle draw an argument from civill laws , to pacifie conscience , but he using his apostolicall authority , resolves the doubts in this chapter , and teacheth , that according to gods law , and christs precept , the marriage is not dissolved by the infidelity of either yoak-fellow , but that they may lawfully dwell together , and couple , according to gods institution of marriage . as for that which beza saith , no man hath ever said truly , that marriage is holy between two unbelievers , and that their children are holy , sith their meats are unclean to them , as being to be sanctified by the word , and giving of thanks ; it is true , if we speak of the sanctification of the heart , but it is manifest from that which is before said , that the apostle speaks of the sanctification and sanctity , that is in chastity , and legitimation , and in respect of it beza grants the marriage of infidels not to be accounted before god for fornication ; for marriage is honourable among all , even unbelievers , and the bed undefiled , but whoremongers and adulerers god will judge , heb. . . but honour and holinesse sound the same , thes. . . the argument from mat. . . mar. . . . luke . , , . may be formed in divers manners : first thus ; they are to be baptized , whom christ commands to be brought to him , being moved with indignation towards his disciples , that repelled them . but christ commands infants to be brought to him . ergo . that this argument may be examined , it is to be considered : . who they were that brought these children . . what little children they were that were brought . . upon what motives . . to what end . . what time . . in what place they brought them . . for what cause the apostles did repell them . . for what cause christ being angry with the apostles , com - in many of these , we have scarce any thing beside conjectures , which we may follow , neither have i leisure or books to look into all things which commentators have discoursed concerning these heads . as for the first , it it is supposed that the bringers were either parents , or other believers , who at least wished well to the little children ; which is probable from the end for which they brought them , to wit , that he might blesse them , and pray for them , for this shewed faith and love . as for the second , it is probable they were children of jews , because this was done in the coasts of judea , mat. . . mar. . . but whether the parents of the children believed in christ or otherwise , is not manifest . as for the third , concerning the motive , there is little certain , whether it were upon the sight , or hearing of that which christ did , mat. . . or from a custome among the jews , of seeking the blessing of prophets and holy men , for their little ones , as rebecca for jacob , joseph for his sons ; or from the fame of things done upon the praiers of christ ; or an instinct from god , that occasion might be given of teaching the things that christ taught upon this matter ; or some other motive . as for the fourth , the end is expressed by matthew , that he might put on hands and pray ; by mark and luke , tha the might touch them , which tends to impart a blessing . as for the fifth , matthew points at the time , by the particle [ then ] and both mark and matthew , put it after the dissertation , with the pharisees concerning divorce , and the answer to the disciples exception , which mark testifies was made in the house ; luke puts it after the parable of the publican and the pharisee , but he is wont to relate things out of their right place . but what the holy spirit doth intimate , by noting the time precisely , i guesse not , unlesse perhaps he would have it noted , that an occasion was opportunely ministred , of amplifying the argument concerning making a mans self an eunuch for the kingdome of heaven , though this reason doth not very much like me . as for the sixth , the place is intimated , mat. . . mar. . . in the coasts of judea , beyond jordan , in matthew ; by the farther side of jordan , in mark ; about which it availeth not to our present purpose to inquire . as for the seventh , the reason of repelling , is not known , but by conjecture , it is probable this bringing of little children , was troublesom to them , either because it did interrupt christs speech about marriage , and fitness to the kingdom of heaven , or because they sought rest in the house , or because they did think this bringing would be in vain . as for the eighth , christ without doubt , was angry with the disciple , because they hindred the occasion of doing good to men , whereas christ went about doing good , act. . . and in this business the faith of the bringers was to be cherished , and the power of blessing in christ was to be manifested , & the excellent doctrine to be delivered , concerning little childrens being capable of the kingdome of heaven , of the quality of them who receive the kingdome of heaven ; but whether christ would that this fact should remain , as a perpetuall rule for baptizing the infants of believers , is yet a question . it seems , scarce probable it should be so . . because baptisme of infants , being meerly positive , so obscure and doubtfull an institution , is without example and reason . . because we find no practice or hint in scripture , which may expound this fact to this sense . . because , if he had given a command to the apostles of baptizing infants , he had rather said , bring the little children to me , then suffer them to be brought to me . . he had declared whose infants he would have baptized , and not have spoken so indefinitely , it is certain , before the command , mat. . , . there is no precept extant , concerning baptizing gentiles , much lesse concerning baptizing the infants of the gentiles . . the words , suffer & forbid not , and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , these little children , as beza reads , shew that christs words are meant only of those children . . if this fact pertain to baptisme , then we must say , that christ baptized , the contrary whereof is said , joh. . . as for that which is objected , that three euangelists rehearse this fact , that thence a perpetuall rule may be drawn , of bringing infants to christ by an outward ordinance , which is not done but by baptisme , it is weak : for , . three euangelists rehearse the bringing of the palsie man to christ , the accesse of the leprous person to christ , and many other things , from which yet no perpetuall rule is formed . . if any rule be hence to be formed , that is to be perpetually observed , this relation will serve more fitly to establish episcopall confirmation , by laying on hands , and praying , then presbyteriall baptisme . secondly , we must distinguish , concerning bringing to christ ; there is a bringing to christ , by locall admotion , there is another bringing to christ by spirituall instruction ; this bringing to christ , is the cause of baptisme , not the other : for many were brought by the command of christ , to christ , as the blind son of timaeus , and others , of whose baptisme , or conversion we reade not ; for not all that were corporally healed by christ , were also spiritually healed , as we are to say of the nine lepers . malchus and others . . the argument supposeth they may be baptized , whom christ commands to be brought , but neither is this true of spirituall bringing ; for not those whom he commands to be brought spiritually , are to be baptized , but those whom he hath brought ; as for that which is said , they are repelled from christ , that are repelled from baptisme , it is a light thing , for baptisme doth not bring men to christ , unlesse the persons be first in christ ; neither is therefore any man repelled from christ , because he is not baptized , but when he is kept back , being fit for baptism . to the argument therefore answer is made , by denying the major universally taken . secondly , the argument is thus formed : arg. those whom christ imbraced , laid his hands on , blessed , may be baptized ; but christ imbraced infants , &c. ergo . answ. i answer , this argument supposeth these acts of christ , to have been all one , as if he had baptized , but this is said without proof , in very deed , that act of blessing was more then baptisme , and yet it had not the same reason with baptisme ; it is manifest out of joh. . . that baptisme was an act of ministry , which christ did not exercise by himself , but his disciples , but that blessing was an act , by which he obtained some singular gift from god by prayers for those infants , upon whom he had laid his hands ; nor is this benefit said to be bestowed on them for the faith of their parents , but out of singular favour which christ bestowed upon many , as lazarus , with his sisters , john the apostle and others , therefore the major proposition is to be denied ; for there is no connexion between this act , which is extraordinary , and the act of ordinary ministery , which is to be fulfilled according to the lords prescription . the third argument is thus formed . arg. they may be baptized , whose is the kingdome of heaven ; but of infants is the kingdome of heaven ; ergo . answ. i answer , the major proposition is true , if it be understood of those whose is the kingdome of heaven , when it appears that the kingdome of heaven belongs to them , otherwise it is not true . secondly , it is not said in the text [ of infants is the kingdom of heaven ] but , of such is the kingdome of heaven ; and christ expounds what he means , mar. . . luke . . to wit , of them who in humility of mind , are like little children , as it is mat. . , . but if [ of such ] be to be expounded , as beza would , annot. in mat. . . of these and the like , as above , . it is not proved from thence , that the kingdome of heaven pertains to all infants of believers , but to them whom he then blessed , and to those persons who either are so blessed , or are converted and humble as little children . whence it is answered ; first by denying the major , if it be expounded universally and unrestrainedly : secondly , by denying the minor , as it is put indefinitely , for the reasons above put . the argument from the place , act. . . . . act. . . cor. . . is thus formed : if the apostle baptized whole housholds , then infants ; but the apostle baptized whole housholds , ergo . answ. this argument rests on a sleight conjecture , that there were infants in those houses , and that those infants were baptized , whereas the words of the text evince not these things , yea , those things which are said , acts . . he spake the word of the lord to him , and to all in his house ; and vers. . he rejoyced , believing god with all his house . act. . . crispus believed the lord with his whole house , do plainly prove , that under the name of the whole house , are understood those only that heard the word of god and believed . whence it is answered by denying the consequence of the major proposition . some other arguments occur , which make a number without strength . first , it is argued from generall promises , made to the godly and their seed , exod. . . psal. . , &c. whence it is gathered , that god makes a difference betwixt the children of the godly and the wicked , that he promiseth blessing to those , not to these , therefore the children of the godly are to be baptized , not the other . answ. the promises recited , are first generall and indefinite ; secondly , for the most part concerning corporall good things ; thirdly , with the exception of free election ; fourthly , to be understood with the implyed condition of faith and repentance , and so they serve not to this purpose . secondly , from isai. . . it is foretold that gentiles should bring their sons in their arms , and their daughters on their shoulders , therfore the prophet foresaw in spirit , the baptisme of the little ones of the gentiles . answ. first , little ones might be brought for other ends then baptisme , as mat. . . secondly , i will use the words of francis junius in his annot. on the place , all these things are said allegorically , of the spirituall amplification of the kingdome of christ , as the prophets are wont , they are fulfilled in the perswasions in which the gentiles exhorted their children to imbrace christ . thirdly , from cor. . . all our fathers were baptized , therefore also infants . i answer , first , if this verse prove that infants were baptized , the verses following will prove that they received the lords supper . . the sense is not that they were formally baptized , with the rite of baptisme , begun by john baptist , and ordained by christ ; but that by a like representation , the sea and the cloud signified salvation to them by christ as baptisme doth to us , and that they were in a like condition , as if they had been baptized . fourthly , from ephes. . . where it is said , that christ cleansed the church with the washing of water through the word , therefore infants either belong not to the church , and so are excluded from the benefit of christs death , or they are to be baptized . answ. if this argument be of force , the thief crucified with christ , and repenting on the crosse , infants , catechumeni , martyrs , and others , dying before baptisme , are excluded out of the church , and from the benefit of christs death ; we are therefore to say , that either the church is taken for the more famous part of the church , or that purification is to be understood of that , which is for the most part . fifthly , from pet. . . believers are called a chosen generation , a holy nation , which things are said of the israelites , exo. . , . therefore believers of the nations obtain the same birth-priviledges , which the israelites had , and therefore their children are within the covenant , and to be baptized as the children of the israelites were to be circumcised . answ. . if this argument proceed , it will follow , that there is some nationall-church among the gentiles , as of old among the jews , which is not to be granted , which i would have understood in this sense , there is now no such nationall-church , as amongst the israelites , so as that a person should be accounted a member of a church , in that he is an englishman , scot , dutchman , &c. in this speech i oppose not them which affirm the outward government of the church should be subject to nationall synods . . exod. . , . god speaks not of a priviledge flowing from birth , but obedience . . the epistle was written to the dispersed jewes , and therefore the argument lies liable to exception , when it is drawn from that which is said of the jews , as if it were said of the gentiles . . but letting these things passe , the sense is , ye which believe , as it is vers. . whom god hath called out of darknesse , are a holy nation , whether jews or gentiles , by spirituall regeneration , as believers are called a family or kindred , ephes. . . the houshold of faith , gal. . . the house of god , tim. . . a people , pet. . . wherefore in this family , kindred , house , people , are only believers , whom not carnall birth , but spirituall causeth to be reckoned in that number . sixthly , the church of god fails not , but we must say , the church of god hath failed , if baptisme of infants be not lawfull , ergo . answ . . the church of god may consist without baptisme , as in the crucified converted thief , &c. secondly , neither perhaps , is it necessary to be said , that the baptisme of infants , because not lawfull , is therefore nall . thirdly , there was in the church baptisme of persons grown , in all ages . ludov. vives in his comment . upon aug. de civit. dei . lib. . cap. . hath these words , no man of old was brought unto * the place of holy baptisme unlesse he were of grown age already , and when the same person knew what that mysticall water meant , and desired to be washed in it , and that more then once , an image of which thing we see yet , in our baptisme of infants ; for as yet the infant , though born the same day , or the day before , is asked , whether he would be baptized , and that thrice ; for whom the sureties answer , that he would . i hear in some cities in italy , that the old custome , for a great part is yet preserved . seventhly , heb. . . the apostle speaks of the doctrine of baptismes , and laying on of hands ; now this is not likely to be understood of laying on of hands in healing sick persons , or bestowing the holy ghost , for these were extraordinary or miraculous , and therefore not to be put in the number of the principles of the oracles of god , the foundation , milk for babes , nor of imposition of hands for ordination to special function in the church , for that , though ordinary , yet not likely to be put among the principles , the foundation , milk for babes , therefore it remains , that it was the laying on of hands on children formerly baptized in infancy , which though corruptly made a sacrament by papists , and superstitiously abused , yet being freed from the abuse were very usefull , as being an apostolicall ordinance , from this text , and manifests that there was infant-baptisme in the apostles dayes , which is confirmed , because it is coupled with baptisme , and therefore seems to be a consequent upon it . answ. . there is great incertainty , what this imposition of hands mentioned , heb. . . served for , the reason to prove that it could not be either for healing , or giving the holy ghost , because they were miraculous or extraordinary , is not cogent ; for though they were by more then ordinary power , yet were they frequent in those times , and might well be put among the elements to be in those days first learned : nor is the reason cogent to prove it could not be the imposition of hands in ordination , for speciall function in the church ; for it is more likely that it should be meant , which it is certain was still in use , and to continue to be used , and therefore it was needfull to be taught younglings , as well as the doctrine of baptismes : then laying on of hands for confirmation of baptisme , of which there is no certainty ( though pretended examples ) in scripture , be brought to give some colour to it ; nor is imposition of hands in ordination unfitly coupled to baptisme , both being ordinances for initiation , the one into the pro - . but if it were supposed that this imposition of hands , meant heb. . . were on the baptized ; yet this proves not the baptisme of infants in the apostles dayes , unlesse it could be proved that it was used after the baptisme of infants only , for a confirmation either of the baptisme , or baptized . or the contrary , it is apparent out of tertul. de corona militis , c. . that in the primitive times the baptisied did make his confession at baptisme , sub manu antistitis , that is , the minister laying hands on him . and to save labour in reciting testimonies , chamier may be seen , who in his pans . catholica , tom. . l. . c. . sec . . at large proves out of the ancients , that the imposition of hands , which after was made a distinct sacrament , called confirmation , was either a part or appendix of baptisme : and many passages he cites to shew , that it was when the baptized was to confesse the faith , and to renounce satan : and if hierom , tom . . in his dialogue against the luciferians , do assert that use of imposition of hands from scripture , yet he alleadgeth not heb. . . for it , but the examples of giving the holy ghost by laying on of hands , in the acts of the apostles . the second argument followeth : that which agreeth not with the lords institution of baptisme , that is deservedly doubtfull . but the rite of infant-baptisme agrees not with the lords institution of baptisme , ergo . the major is proved , because institution is the rule of exhibiting worship to god . the minor is proved from the words of insti●ution , mat. . . going therefore , disciple ye all nations , baptizing them . whence i gather thus : that rite agrees not with the lords institution of baptisme , according to which they are baptized , whom the lord appointed not to be baptized . but after the rite of infant-baptisme , they are baptized whom the lord appointed not to be baptized , ergo . the major is manifest of it self . the minor is proved : the lord appointed not infants to be baptized , ergo . the antecedent is proved ; those , and no other , the lord appointed to be baptized , who have been made disciples . but this cannot be said of infants . ergo . the argument is confirmed from john . . where it is said that jesus made more disciples , then , that he baptized : first it is said that he made disciples , then baptized . some one perhaps will say that baptisme of infants is elsewhere instituted , although not here . to which is answered , let he that can , bring forth that institution , and the doubt will be loosed . but infants may be disciples , for they may be sanctified by the spirit ? answ. it is true , infants may be sanctified by the spirit of god , purged by the blood of christ , saved by the grace of god , my minde abhorrs from the doctrine of them that assert , that infants not baptized , necessarily perish , or are deprived of the kingdome of god , nor do i doubt , but that the elect infants dying in infancy are sanctified , yea if it should be made known to us that they are sanctified , i should not doubt that they are to be baptized , remembring the saying of peter , act. . . can any man forbid water , that these should not be baptized , who have received the holy ghost as we ? then you will say [ make disciples ] in that place , may be so expounded , as that it may include infants ? answ. it follows not ; but this only follows , that in ease extraordinary , we may depart from the ordinary rule : but the ordinary rule is , make disciples , that is , by preaching the gospell , make disciples , as appears from mark . . . and baptize them , to wit , whom you have made disciples , and in the ordinary course of ministry , we must follow the ordinary rule . perhaps some one will except , that christ teacheth that such disciples should be baptized , but that the speech is not exclusive . refut . but it is meet he remember , who shall thus except , if institution be the rule of worship , it is necessary that he that shall administer the worship , binde himself to the rule , otherwise he will devise will-worship , and arrogate the lords authority to himself : surely the apostle in the businesse of the lords supper , insinuates this , when being about to correct the aberrations of the corinthians , concerning the lords supper he brings forth these words , cor. . . for i have received of the lord , that which i also have delivered unto you . besides as christ mat. . . . argues from the institution of marriage , against divorce for a light cause , and polygamie , because it is said , two , not more then two shall be one flesh ; so in like manner it may be here argued , christ said baptizing them , and not others , therefore these and not others are to be baptized . but as for him who gathers from this place , infants are to be baptized , because christ commands all nations to be baptized , verily he is faulty . . in casting away that restriction that christ hath put . . by determining that all men whatsoever are to be baptized , so that this is not a priviledge of believers and their children , but common with them , to all infidels and their children . and in very deed , however assertors of infant-baptisme , crack of a priviledge of believers and their offespring , not only the usuall practise of baptising any little children offered , but also sayings prove , that men have gone far , not only from christs institution , but also from the principles , upon which , men at this day are busie to establish infant-baptisme . i shall prove this by some instances . in the . epistle of cyprian to fidus , from which augustine is wont in his disputations against the pelagians , to take his proof for infant-baptisme , and to which writers attribute much , although that i may say no worse , without cause , this reason is put , why it was not assented to bishop fidus , who thought that an infant was not to be baptized , afore the eighth day , according to the law of ancient circumcision , we all rather judged , that the mercy and grace of god is to be denied to none , that is born of men . by the answer of augustine to bonifacius , tom. . epist. . enquiring concerning the truth of sureties , in affirming the unknowne faith of little ones , and promising for them , it will appeare to the reader , that the baptisme of any little ones offered to baptisme , is defended by him , although they were not brought , that they might be regenerated to eternall life , by spirituall grace , but because they thinke by this remedy ( i use the words of augustine ) to retain or receive temporall health : john gerhard , loc. theolog. tom. . de cap. . sect. . defends the practise of the ancients baptizing the children of unbeleevers : and the words of mr. samuell rutherford , scot , in his booke lately put forth in the english tongue , intituled a peaceable and temperate plea , c. . arg. . seems to me to propend too much to this opinion , the words are these , if then the jewes in pauls time were holy by covenant , howbeit for the present the sons were branches broken off , for unbelief , much more seeing god hath chosen the race and nation of the gentiles , and is become a god to us and to our seed , the seed must be holy , with holinesse of the chosen nation , and holinesse externall of the covenant , notwithstanding the father and mother were as wicked as the jews , who slow the lord of glory . and the grave confutation of brownists , by rathband , part. . pag. . fourthly , children may be lawfully admitted to baptisme , though both their parents be profane , if those who are instead of parents to them do require baptisme for them , and give their promise to the church for their religious education , seeing they may lawfully be accounted within gods covenant , if any of their ancestors in any generation were faithfull . exod. . . lastly , if this argument be not of force , christ commandeth first to disciple , and then to baptize those that are discipuled ; to exclude infants from baptisme ; neither will the argument be of force , from cor. . . let a man examine himself , and so let him eat , to exclude infants from the lords supper , for by the like clusion this argument may be rejected by saying , that the speech of the apostle is not exclusive , and is to be understood of receiving the lords supper by persons grown only , yea , verily , neither will the argument be of force from the institution of the supper , mat. . , . therefore only believers are to be admitted to the lords supper . if any reply . but the apostle cor. . & . hath declared , that the institution is exclusive , the same may be said of the institution of baptism , from the following argument . the third argument is taken from the practise of the apostles and john baptist , which is the best interpreter of our lords institution , from whence the argument is thus formed : that tenet and practise , which being put : baptisme cannot be administred as john baptist and the apostles did administer it , agrees not with the practise of john baptist and the apostles . but the tenet and practise of infant-baptisme being put ; baptism cannot be administred , as john baptist and the apostles administred it , ergo . the major is of it self manifest . the minor is proved ; before the baptisme of john even the jews did confesse sins , the apostles before baptisme did require shews of faith and repentance , but this cannot be done in the baptisme of infants : the major is proved by looking on these places , mat. . . luk. . . act. . . act. . , . and ver. . when the eunuch had said to philip , what letteth me to be baptized ? philip answered , if thou believest with thy whole heart thou maist ; he implies the defect of faith to be an impediment of baptisme , act. . . act. . . act. . . . act. . , , , . act. . . act. . . act. . . this argument is confirmed , for if it be rightly argued from cor. . that the lords supper is not to be granted to infants , because self-examination is pre-required , by like reason we may say baptisme is not to be yeelded to infants , because repentance and faith are pre-required , act. . . act. . . and that of those who are descended from abraham , and to whom the promise was . the fourth argument is taken from the practise of the next age after the apostles . that tenet and practise is doubtfull of which it cannot be proved that it was in force or use , in the next age after the apostles . but it cannot be proved that the tenet or practise of infant-baptisme was in force or use in the age next after the apostles , ergo . the major is of it self manifest . the minor is proved by the testimony of lodovicus vives above recited , to which vossius in thesibus historico theologicis , of infant-baptisme , joynes the testimony of vvalafridus strabo , and by the examining of places brought to that purpose , and by the continuation of questions propounded to the baptized in ages following , and other tokens from councils and ecclesiasticall writers , which in historicall businesse are wont to beget credit . the words of walafridus strabo , who lived about the year . in his book de rebus ecclesiasticis , chap. . are these , we are also to note , that in the first times the grace of baptisme was wont only to be given to them , who by integrity both of body and minde were already come to this , that they could know and understand what profit is to be obtained in baptisme , what is to be confessed and believed , what lastly , is to be observed of them that are born again in christ . the fifth argument : that which in succeeding ages , in which it was in use , was in force , . as a tradition not written ; . out of imitation of jewish circumcision ; . without universall practise ; . together with the error of giving infants the lords supper , and many other humane inventions , under the name of apostolicall traditions ; that is deservedly doubtfull . but in some ages after the first from the apostles , the tenet and practise of infant-baptisme was in use , . as a tradition not written , as appears from origen , hom. on rom. . of which book neverthelesse let me add the censure of erasmus on the homilies of origen upon leviticus , but he that reads this work , and the enarration of the epistle to the romans is uncertain whether he read origen or ruffinus . and the testimony fetched from these books for infant-baptisme , is so much the more to be suspected , because augustine , hierom , &c. rely ( so far as yet is manifest to me ) on no other testimony , then of cyprian and his fellow-bishops in the councel , of which mention is made epist. . ad fidum . secondly , out of imitation of jewish circumcision , as the doubt of fidus , in the . epistle of cyprian to fidus , intimates , though there were also other reasons of infant-baptisme ; as the opinion of the necessity of baptisme to salvation , and the greedinesse to increase the number of christians , and perhaps the imitation of heathenish lustration of little ones ; and some other . thirdly , without universall practise : for it is manifest that constantine , although born of helena his mother , a christian , was not baptized till aged , as eusebius in the life of constantine written by him . the same is manifest from the book of confessions of augustine , concerning augustine hmself , whose mother monica was a christian . the things which may be drawn out of theodoret , augustine , and others , concerning theodosius , alipius , adeodatus , and many others ( although my books , and notes out of them are wanting to me , by reason of the injury of the times ) unlesse i be deceived will evince that ( though in the churches of those times , little ones were baptized , yet ) many were not baptized , whose baptism its likely the church would sooner have dispatched , if the opinion of baptism that now obtains , had then obtained . fourthly , together with the error of giving the lords supper to infants , as is manifest out of the book of cyprian de lapsis , and others . and that many other inventions of men under the name of apostolicall tradition , out of a wrong liking of judaisme , did then prevaile , as the paschall solemnity , &c. is so obvious to him that reads fathers and ecclesiasticall writers , that no man will need proofe , ergo . and in very deed , as of old , because the rite of infant-baptisme seemed to be of so great moment against the pelagian heresie , and for the authority of the councell under cyprian , the councel of milevis , augustine , hierom , and others , rather then from any solid argument out of scripture , in former ages , infant-baptisme prevailed ; so in this last age , some modern men seem to imbrace this tenet of infant-baptism , out of horror of mind , lest they should go headlong into the pernicious errors of former anabaptists , and their mad furies , or lest they should seem to desert the leading men of the reformed churches , or move troubles in the church ; rather then from perspicuous foundation in the scriptures . which they will think that i have not said as one that dreams , who shall read what robert lord brook hath in the end of his treatise concerning episcopacie , daniel rogers in his treatise of baptisme , and others elswhere . the sixth argument follows : that which hath occasioned many humane inventions , partly by which infant-baptisme it self may be under-propped , partly the defect in the policy of the church , which in very deed is to be supplied by the lawfull use of baptisme , of that it is deservedly doubtfull whether it be not in it self weak and insufficient for its proper work . but the matter is so in the businesse of infant-baptisme , ergo . the minor is proved by instances : they are , . the use of sureties in baptisme , which is an humane invention , for a shadowy supplement , and i had almost said sporting , of that profession of faith which at first was made by the baptized in his own person . . episcopall confirmation , in which the bishop layes hands or anoints the catechized , that baptisme , or the baptized may be confirmed , and they made capable of the lords supper . . the reformed union , by examination , confession , subscription , of the received doctrine in the church , before the communion of the eucharist , of which parker of eccles. policie , l. . c. . . the church-covenant , as they call it , afore the admission of members into church-fellowship , of which the new-england elders in the little book in english , called church-covenant , which in very deed are devised to supply the place of baptisme ; for by baptisme , according to christs institution , a person is exhibited a member of christ and the church , cor. . . gal. . . ephes. . . the seventh argument : that which hath occasioned many errors , that is deservedly doubtfull , whether it be right . but the practise of infant-baptisme hath occasioned either the birth or fostering of many errors , ergo . it is proved by instances : . that baptisme conferres grace by the work done . . that baptisme is regeneration . . that infants dying , are saved by the faith of their parents , faith of sureties , of the church receiving into her lap : which is to be ascribed alone to the grace of god by christ . . that some regenerate persons may utterly fall from grace . the eighth argument : that which hath caused many abuses and faults in discipline , and divine worship , and conversation of men , that is deservedly doubtfull . but infant-baptisme is such , ergo . it is proved by enumeration . . private baptisme . . baptisme by women . . baptisme of infants not yet brought into light . . baptisme of infants of uncertain progeny , whom we call children of the earth and world . . they are baptized in the name of the lord , who know not the lord , nor have ever consented , or perhaps will consent to the confession of the name of our lord . . it hath brought in the admission of ignorant and profane men into the communion of the church , and to the lords supper : for who can deny rightly , the right of the church to the baptized ? . it perverts the order of discipline , that first a man be baptized and after among the catechized . . the sacrament of baptisme is turned into a meer ceremony , yea into a profane meeting to feast together . . men forget baptisme , as if they were never baptized , so that it hath the force of a carnall rite , not of a spirituall institution . . it takes away , or at least diminisheth zoale , and industry in knowing the gospel . the ninth argument . that is deservedly doubtfull , that yeeldeth occasion to many unnecessary disputes , f●stering only contention , and which cannot be determined by any certain rule . but the tenet or rite of infant-baptisme is such , ergo . it is proved by instances . . of baptizing the infants of excommunicated persons . . of baptizing the infants of apostates . . of baptizing the infants of such parents as are not members in a gathered church . . of baptizing the infants of those , whose ancestors were believers , the next parents remaining in unbelief ; these things shew that men have departed from the rule , when they know not where to stay . the tenth reason of doubting is , that in the midst of the darknesse under the papacythe same men opposed infant-baptisme , who opposed invocation of saints , prayer for the dead , adoration of the crosse , and such like ; this is manifest out of the . sermon of bernard , on the canticles , where of the heretiques ( as he cals them ) who he said boasted themselves to be successors of the apostles , and name themselves apostolique , he hath these words , they deride us , because we baptize infants , because we pray for the dead , because we ask the suffrages of the saints , and in his . epistle to hildefonsus , earl of saint giles , he complains of henricus the heretique , formerly a monke , that he tooke away holy-dayes , sacraments , churches , priests , that the life of christ is stopped to the little ones of christians , while the grace of baptisme is denied , and they are not suffered to draw neer to salvation . from the epistle of peter abbat . cluniacensis , to three bishops of france , against peter de bruis , and henricus , holding errors , digested into five heads . . that little ones are not to be baptized . . that churches or altars ought not to be made . . that the crosse of our lord is not to be adored or worshipped , but rather to be broken and trodden under feet . . that the masse is nothing , nor ought to be celebrated . . that the good deeds of the living , nothing profit the dead ; that we are not to chaunt to god . he saith , that the heresie of the petrobrusians was received in the cities of gallia narbonensis . and from lucas osiander his epitome of the ecclesiasticall history , cent. . l. . c. . at the year . where he accuseth the albigenses as consenting with the anabaptists . to which i adde , that in the ages neer the apostles , tertullian and gregory nazianzen disswade the baptisme of infants , unlesse the danger of death happen . the words of tertullian are in his book of baptisme , c. . therefore for the condition and disposition , also age of each person , the delaying of baptisme is more profitable : yet chiefly about little ones ; for what need that the sureties be also cast on danger , who themselves may by mortality be wanting to their promises , and be deceived by the comming forth of an evill disposition . the lord saith indeed , do not prohibite them to come to me ; let them come when they are grown , let them come when they learn , let them be taught when they come , let them be made christians when they can know christ . why doth innocent age hasten to the remission of sinnes ? shall it be done more warily in things secular , that to whom earthly substance is not committed , divine should ? let them know how to ask safety , that thou maist know to give to him that asketh . gregory nazianzen , in his . oration of holy baptisme : for which we are to use all diligence , that we misse not the common grace . some one will say , let these things be concerning them that seek baptisme : but what may you say concerning them that are yet babes , and neither perceive losse , nor grace ? shall we also baptize them ? yes by all means , if any danger urge ; for it is better that they be sanctified without perceiving it , then to go away unsealed or unaccomplished . and the reason of this , to us , is circumcision on the eighth day , being a certain typical seal , & offered to them that had not yet the use of reason ; as also the anointing of the posts , which by things without feeling preserved the first born . but for others , i give my opinion that they stay three yeares , or a little within this , or beyond it , when they may be able to heare and answer some mysticall points , if they cannot understand perfectly , yet being thus stamped , they shall sanctifie both soules and bodies with the great mystery of consecration . the eleventh reason of doubting , is , because the assertors of infant-baptisme little agree among themselves , upon what foundation they may build infant-baptisme . cyprian and others of the ancients draw it from the universality of divine grace , and the necessity of baptisme to salvation . augustine , bernard , and others , bring the faith of the church as the reason of baptizing infants : others , among whom is the catechisme in the english liturgie , put as the reason of infant-baptisme , the promise of the sureties , in the place of the faith and repentance of the baptized . the lutherans , the faith of the infant ; others , the holinesse of a believing nation ; others , the faith of the next parent ; others , the faith of the next parent in covenant in a gathered church . this difference of the maintainers of infant-baptism , deservedly causeth doubt concerning the thing it self . the last , and that a weighty reason of doubting is , because infant-baptisme seemes to take away one , perhaps the primary end of baptism ; for many things argue that it was one end of baptism , that it should be a signe that the baptized shews himself a disciple , and confesseth the faith in which he hath been instructed . . the requiring of confession by john baptist and the apostles , was wont to be before baptisme , luk. . . act. . . act. . . . the frequent manner of speaking in the new testament , which puts baptism for doctrine , act. . . act. . . shews this . beza in his annot. on act. . . the answer is most apposite , in which they signifie that they professed in baptism the doctrine propounded by john , and confirmed by use of baptisme with which they had been baptized , whereby they had acknowledged christ but very slenderly . . the form of christs institution , mat. . . compared with the phrase as it is used cor. . . or , were you baptized into the name of paul ? implies the same . on which place beza , the third reason is taken from the form and end of baptisme , in which we give our name to christ , being called upon , with the father and holy spirit . . that which is said , joh. . . he made and baptized more disciples . and mat. . . going , make disciples in all nations , baptizing them ; intimate this . and if , as some affirme , baptism was in use with the jews , in the initiating of proselytes into the profession of judaisme ; this opinion is the more confirmed . but in infant-baptisme the matter is so carried , that baptisme serves to confirm a benefit , not to signifie a profession made : and so one , perhaps the chief end of baptisme is voyded . and here i think it is to be minded , that the usuall description of a sacrament , and such as are like to it , that it is a visible signe of invisible grace ; hath occasioned the misunderstanding of both sacraments , as if they signed a divine benefit , not our duty , to which in the first place the institution had respect . it seems to some , that infant-baptisme should be good , because the devil requires witches to renounce it . which reason , if ought worth , might as well prove baptisme of any infants , baptisme by a midwife , good ; because these the devil requires them to renounce , as well that which is of the infants of believers , by a lawfull minister . but the true reason why he requires the baptisme of witches to be renounced by them , is not because the baptisme is good in respect of the administration of it , but because the faith mentioned in the form of baptisme , is good ; and they that renounce not their baptisme , do shew their adherence to that faith in some sort , which cannot stand with an explicite covenant with the devil . nor is the assuming of baptisme in ripe yeares by those who were washed in infancy , a renouncing of baptisme , as some in their grosse ignorance conceit ; but indeed a firmer avouching of baptisme according to christs mind . this more likely might , be inferred from the devils practise in requiring . witches to renounce their baptisme ; that the profession of faith is the main businesse in baptisme , which should be before baptisme , if it were rightly administred after the first pattern . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- §. . the first argument for infant-baptisme , examined from the interest in the promise , gen. . . §. . the second argument for infant baptisme from the succession of baptisme to circumcision , examined . §. . the third argument from the parity of grace in the new testament to that in the old examined . §. . the argument from act. . , . for infant-baptisme examined . §. . the argument from cor. . . for infant-baptisme , examined . mat. . . acts . . §. . the arguments from mat. . . for infant-baptisme exmined . §. . the argument from acts . . &c. for infant-baptisme examined . §. . the argument from generall promises for infant-baptisme examined . § . the argument from isa. . . for infant-baptisme examined . §. . the argument from cor. . . for infant-baptisme ex §. . the argument from eph. . . for infant-baptisme examined . §. . the argument from pet. . . for infant-baptisme examined . §. . the argument churches failing , if infant-baptisme be not lawfull examined . * sacro baptisterio admovebatur . §. . the argument from heb. . for infant-baptisme examined . arg. . §. . the argument from the institution of christ , mat. . . against infant-baptisme , confirmed . arg. . § . the argument from john baptist and the apostles practise against insant-baptism confirmed . arg. . §. . the argument from the practise in the age next the apostles against infant-baptism confirmed . arg. . §. . the argument from the wrong originall of infant-baptism , confirmed against it . arg. . §. . the argument against infant-baptisme , from humane inventions occasioned by it confirmed . arg. . §. . the argument against infant-baptism , from the errors occasioned by it , confirmed . arg. . §. . the argument against infant-baptism , from many abuses caused by it , confirmed . arg. . §. . the argument from unnecessary disputes caused by it against infant-baptisme , confirmed . arg. . § . the argument against infant-baptism from the opposition to it in the middest of popery , confirmed . arg. . §. the argument against infant-baptism , from assertors difference about the ground of it , confirmed . arg. . anti-pædobaptism, or, the third part being a full review of the dispute concerning infant baptism : in which the arguments for infant baptism from the covenant and initial seal, infants visible church membership, antiquity of infant baptism are refelled [sic] : and the writings of mr. stephen marshal, mr. richard baxter ... and others are examined, and many points about the covenants, and seals and other truths of weight are handled / by john tombes. tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) anti-pædobaptism, or, the third part being a full review of the dispute concerning infant baptism : in which the arguments for infant baptism from the covenant and initial seal, infants visible church membership, antiquity of infant baptism are refelled [sic] : and the writings of mr. stephen marshal, mr. richard baxter ... and others are examined, and many points about the covenants, and seals and other truths of weight are handled / by john tombes. tombes, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by e. alsop, london : . imperfect: signature mmmmm faded. pages - of defective union theological seminary library spliced at end. reproduction of original in the bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng infant baptism -- early works to . baptists -- controversial literature. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion anti-paedobaptism : or the third part . being , a full review of the dispute concerning infant-baptism . in which , the arguments for infant-baptism from the covenant and initial seal , infants visible church-membership , antiquity of infant-baptism , are refelled . and the writings of mr. stephen marshal , mr. richard baxter , mr. john geree , mr. thomas blake , mr. thomas cobbet , dr. nathaniel homes , mr. john drew , mr. josiah church , mr. william lyford , dr. daniel featley , mr. john brinsley , mr. cuthbert sidenham , mr. william carter , mr. samuel rutherford , mr. john crag , dr. henry hammond , mr. john cotton , mr. thomas fuller , mr. john stalham , mr. thomas hall , and others , are examined ; and many points about the covenants , and seals , and other truths of weight , are handled : by john tombes . b d. isa. . . wo unto them that call evill good and good evill , that put darkness for light and light for darkness , that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter . london , printed by e. aisop , over against the upper pump in grubstreet . . to the parliament of the commonwealth of england , scotland , and ireland . having presented the two former parts of this review to his highness , and his council ; i take boldness to tender this to your honours , as those who are intrusted with the affairs of these nations ( in which are many churches of christ , whose safety , and welfare doth much depend under christ on your wisedome , and uprightness ) that it may serve to justifie your honours in allowing those who agree with me in the ●oint herein discussed liberty , employment , and maintainance alike with dissenters . wherein your equity and wisedome is very conspicuous and laudable , notwithstanding the clamours and practises of those our opposites , who would have the ship of this commonwealth so ordered , that the power of it should all incline to one side to the endangering of the whole . 't is true the asserting of this truth hath heretofore been unhappily managed , partly by reason of the conjunction of some errours very dangerous in the assertors of this truth , and partly by reason of the violence of spirit in them and their opposites , which have occasioned hard lawes against them , and great hatred towards them . nor do i know any likelihood but that still not onely about this , but also about any other point in difference , when one party seeks to oppress the other there will be much unquietness , unless governours become moderatours between them . in the declaration of the lords and commons assembled in parliament , ordered to be printed . martii . i read these words . the name of anabaptism hath indeed contracted much odium , by reason of the extravagant opinions and practises of some of that name in germany , tending to the disturbance of the government and peace of all states : which opinions and practices we abhor and detest . but for their opinion against the baptism of infants , it is onely a difference about a circumstance of time in the administration of an ordinance , wherein in former ages as well as this , learned men have differed both in opinion and practice : and though wee could wish that all men could satisfie themselves , and joyn with us in our judgment and practise in this point : yet herein wee held it fit that men should bee convinced by the word of god with gentleness and reason , and not beaten out of it by force and violence : and yet may . . there was an ordinance which made it punishable with imprisonment , to affirm that the baptism of infants is unlawfull , or that infants baptism is void , and that such persons are to be baptized again . notwithstanding which , it is to be acknowledged with all thankfulness to his higness and your honours , that we enjoy our peace and liberty as dissenters do ; which they who value not , forget the goodness of god , and make forfeiture of their own good . for those who so do , i plead not , but for that truth and practise which is delivered and appointed by christ , which should be encouraged not suppressed by governours . for this i am moved to appear out of conscience of my duty to christ , commiseration of them who have been condemned and injured for avouching my position , and my engagement by solemn covenant enjoyned by parliament , to endeavour reformation in doctrine and worship according to gods word ; and do humbly present it to your honours , craving that if any lawes do remain in force against it they may be repealed ; and that while we walk according to the rule of christ , liberty , peace , encouragement may be granted to us as to others who have joyned in the common cause , which will be a motive to us the more affectionately to pray for your honours prosperous and happy proceedings in repairing the breaches , and building up this commonwealth whereto you are advanced , and for which i am your honours humble and devoted servant : john tombes . to the christian reader . though all personal pleas and narrations are suspected to be partial , and are usually judged to have something of ostentation , or dissembling , o● some such inordinate affection which may abate their credit and esteem , yet the practises of opponents in controversies , and the great prejudice to the truth , and person opposed they create thereby , and the difficulty for persons who are not actors in such contentions to understand the truth without them make them necessary . doubtless if such pleas were not necessary , the apostle paul would not have thought his course justifiable , who hath written one epistle , to wit , the second to the corinthians , almost wholly apologetical for himself , that the misunderstanding of himself and wayes might not be advantage to seducers for hindering the success of his preaching . it is true my credit and esteem is nothing comparable to the apostles , the church and truth of god may stand , though i be buried in perpetual silence : yet sith i am a preacher of the gospel as paul was ( absit verbo invidia ) and my labours therein as i hope not altogether without fruit , and sith the lord seems to me to have set me , though in a lower sphere , for defence of that one baptism which paul mentions ephes. . . as one of the chief points of christianity , and heb. . . is counted as a foundation point . i assure my self paul's practise doth justifie mine , and that i should be wanting not onely to mine own credit , but also to that truth which is dearer then my credit , if i should pass by with silence those misrepresentations whereby both are abused , and the mindes of men alienated from them . which is the more necessary , because of the great repute which my antagonists have in this generation , and their confident speeches , and their incessant endeavours upon all occasions in pulpits , presses , disputes , conferences , to represent the way i avouch as dangerous , my self as instrumental to an evil designe of perverting and dividing the churches of god , unto which the proneness of men to uphold an errour inveterate , and speciously pretended to be approved and blessed by god , and the contrary opinion accursed , besides the advantages it hath for their carnal ease , and for the begetting of a favourable opinion of themselves and their children ( which are more to most then demonstrations out of gods word ) do gain an easie assent . and though i am not out of hope that those who have opposed the truth i assert with impetuous zeal , will be ( especially the most tender conscienced , who examine their wayes , and review their doctrines ) awakened and see and confess their errour , yet i fear the obloquy , and perhaps detriment in repute and outward estate and peace , which m●n either are likely or doubt they may incur by owning the truth i hold forth , or the seeming inconsistency of the reformation i seek to promote , with the peace of the churches of god , will divert the thoughts of many from an exact consideration , and an equall judgement of what i shall write , either of my self or the matter under debate . what was wont to be opposed against the reformation of popish and prelatical corruptions , shall we go against all antiquity ? be wiser then our fathers ? condemn all the churches ? make rents in the church ? and such like objections , though they be upon examination but vain , yet like gorgons head they are apt to turn men into stones , and to make men not see what they do or might see , and to be insensible of the evil of that practise , which otherwise their consciences would be affrighted with . and truely though it be the wise and just contrivance of divine prov●dence , and congruous to his end , that the vanity of all things under the sun might appear , yet is it an humane irregularity , that not onely for evil labour , but also for all travel and every right work a man is envied , malign●d , or disliked of his neighbour , eccl. . . chiefly when it crosseth self ends and conceits . nor is it incident onely to the prophane and unbelievers , to dislike and oppose such acts as are rightly done , but also to the godly , until their mistakes are discovered to them . the building of the altar of ed , josh. . . was likely to have been an occasion of war beetween the rest of the congregation of israel and some tribes ▪ till the intention of the builders was cleared to phinehas ; and peter's going in to cornelius , act. . . occasioned contention with him , though it were from god , till his warrant was shewed . paul knew that his promoting the collection for the poor saints at jerusalem might be distasted of the best , and therefore he prayes that his service which he had for jerusalem might be accepted of the saints , rom. . . even holy upright men have their weaknesses , passions , mis-prisions , prejudices , which oft times hinder a right understanding of tenents and actions of christian brethren , and thereby no small contentions arise . god would have us discern thereby humane imperfection , and keep our spirits humble and heedfull how we manage the rightest actions . surely no action is more necessary then the discovery of truth in the things of god , nor should any endeavours be more acceptable to holy persons , then such as tend thereto , yea though there should be imperfection in actings and defect in the success . yet too much experience hath shewed that such attempts meet with much opposition , and are ill entertained even by those who are or seem friends to truth . it is unnecessary to give instances : in the scripture acts . , &c. in the ecclesiastical story there are so many as verifie it beyond all contradiction . if there were no other example but what hath befaln me about the point in this writing discussed , yet it were sufficient to verifie what i said of the difficulty to gain entertainment of that truth against which men are prepossessed , and of the ill usage of them that in a due manner endeavour to cleer it . that infant baptism was not according to gods will , i thought might be made manifest by the silence of it in scripture , and the writings of the two first ages , and by shewing how it was counted but an ecclesiastical humane tradition unwritten , induced upon such reasons by the leaders of the churches in after ages as are now judged erroneous ; and how false and dangerous the grounds are on which it is made a divine institution , to wit , an imagined covenant of grace to a believer and his seed natural , the nature of sacraments to be seals of the covenant of grace , the inference of duties about positive rites of the new testament from analogy with abrogated ceremonies of the old , the command of circumcision to have been in the extent of it commensurate to and derived from the covenant with abraham gen. . as the adequate reason , the succession of baptism into the room and use of circumcision ; all which or most of them , are so contrary to the scripture and protestant doctrine , as that i presumed they would quickly have been discerned by those who are acquainted with the controversies of divines , and sought reformation in discipline , and removal of humane inventions in gods worship , and had entered into a solemn oath and covenant to that end . and for my way of manifesting my doubts first to the ministers of london , and then to the committee of the assembly then sitting at westminster , and after to a prime man in it in the years , . and what opposition i found is so manifest in my two treatises and apology published , . as that it were but actum agere to say any more thereof . which i hoped would have taken off such prejudices , as my antagonists writings had raised against my writings and person , that i might securely apply my self to review the dispute , w●thout hearing of any more personal objections . but when i found the like usage continued by mr. robert baily of glasgow in scotland , i published an addition to the apology . though it were framed before , and sent in a letter manuscript to him . yet the hottest charge was behinde . after my necessitated removal from the temple in london to bewdley in worcestershire , anno . it happened that a publike dispute was between mr. richard baxter of kidderminster near to bewdley and my self , at bewdley jan. . . which how it was occasioned , managed , injuriously divulged , may be perceived by the writings on both sides ; his epistle before the first edition of the saints everlasting rest , his book of baptism , praefestinantis morator , and my antidote printed . and pr●cursor , anno . by mr. baxters book of baptism , my self , doctrine , answers , practise have been so unwo●thily dealt with , as that they have been painted out in deformed shapes quite besides their true feature , and thereby exposed to the unrighteous censures and contempt of so many , that mr. blake in his preface to his vind. faederis thought he might without controul say , mr. tombes is generally lookt upon low enough under hatches . it is indeed too manifest that upon the publishing of mr. baxters book of baptism , which was often printed and very much dispersed , floods of reproaches were cast on me and those who are of my judgement in that point , triumphant boastings of that book as the mawl of anabaptism , a most excellent piece , a lasting monument , &c. which had laid me flat on my back , with many the like vaunts in print and colloquies . nor did mens loose tongues and pens stay here , but many insolent speeches were vented , trampling upon me and the cause with me as captives subdued by that mighty hand ; my actions were censured , my abilities disparaged , yea people possessed with conceits as if i and those of my judgement were accursed of god , left over to a spirit of delusion , a hardened heart ; magistrates were provoked to make lawes against us , as intollerable authors and fomentors of the errors , heresies , and divisions now in the land ; the rage and violence of common people shewed it self against the practise of baptism enjoyned by christ , people were deterred from hearing us , schollers from reading our writings , ancient acquaintance alienated , liberty formerly allowed to preach in publike places restrained , those that by baptism were added to communion withdrawn from society , yea violent cours●s taken to hinder wives , children , servants from associating with them that were baptized , and that which was in former ages the onely baptism , and highly honoured by the ancient writers with titles of dignity exceedingly debased and derided , insomuch that in many parts of this land , i have been taken at best for a self-conceited man , affecting novelty and singularity , of a dangerous spirit , a ring leader of a sect of giddy men adversaries to unity , discipline , opening a door to all fanatique conceits , whose end would prove wicked , with many more imputations , which neither my books nor known conversation afore and since the wars , my labours and imployment in places not obscure , the confessed holiness , orth●doxy , unblameableness of those churches over which i had any inspection , or with whom i associated could so acquit us ▪ but that either our wound is uncured or a skar rem●ins . mr. blake in his preface to his vind. faed . saith thus of me . and indeed i think it a special providence that he should thus appear with a shew of learning , a volumn of words , a rhapsody of authors ▪ getting a name to be the strongest sword and buckler that was ever left up in this cause , to draw the eyes of his party towards him , and then fall so flat , able to make good nothing ; so that men far from censorious vanity well able to judge ( upon serious perusal of his works and converse with him ) do conclude , that it is not possible but he goes against the dictates of his own conscience ; so that these it seems count me for an autocri● or self-condemned heretick . what other imputations mr. blake casts on me , may be seen here sect. . and what mr. firmin , mr. gattaker , and mr. s●mon ford , sect. . besides what mr. john goodwin , mr. wood , and many more have judged of mine and mr. baxters writings . after mr. baxter mr. john crag would needs take up the cudgels and play his part in this matter , which how he hath done may be seen by our writings , compared chiefly here sect . , &c. books after books have been published from england and scotland , by dr. hammond , mr. carter , mr. rutherford , mr. fuller , dr. savage in latin , and others for infant-baptism ; besides sermons in the pulpit , and determinations in the universities at most solemn times . yea upon occasion of a meer accident at oxford in july . i have been baited in the weekly news●books , and i have just cause to conceive that by clancular letters , conferences , consultations , not onely my doctrine hath been decried , my writings vilified , my way represented as pernicious that people might not know the truth , but also my station undermined , and my silencing endeavoured ; and which is of all other the most grievous to me , the fruit of my labours in the gospel of christ not a little hindered : so that whereas mr. baxter would have in his gildas silvianus all ministers tied to confer with the people in private ▪ by his misrepresenting of me , the people ( whom i would gladly teach ) are deterred from hearing me in publike , and conferring with me in private . yea notwithstanding the quakers have been so often opposed by me , and my doctrine as contrary to theirs as light to darkness , by reason of mr. baxters imputing the rise of quakerism to anabaptism , as he terms it ( which how ●ar he chargeth on me may be seen by his questions to me set down here sect . . ) one blashfield a bookseller in lempster hath openly reviled me at the close of my sermon while i was in the pulpit decemb. . . though i then refuted the quakers , and told me , if there were no anabaptist there would be no quaker ; and somewhat afore mr. farmer a preacher in bristol making a relation of james naylors riding into bristol , prints a passage in a private letter , which he with much ado signifies to mee was written by mr. robert breton of pembridge in herefordshire but four miles from me , in which i am charged to say , that in a sermon which i disavow in my writings upon the report at table of a man of this town , who ( what ever his qualities be ) being pressed twice by me , once before some of the most intelligent and indifferent men here , another time before all or the most part of the governours of this town , to deal plainly whether i did speak those words which mr. farmer hath printed doth refuse to do it , shuffles in his answers , and will neither affirm nor deny it . such dealings as these from men reputed godly , preachers of the gospel , some of them fellow-sufferers for the common cause of reformation , and by the same covenant engaged to it , do make me amazed to see what strange courses the intemperate zeal of paedobaptists carries them , discerning thereby what a malignity of spirit they have towards me , who have so far as i can remember done no such thing to them , nor have been wanting in any good office i could do for them with a good conscience , but willing to joyn with godly dissenters in the common cause of christ. nor do i finde any relenting in mr. baxter , but as he shews his spirit in his letters printed here sect . , . so by his preaching at bowdley may ▪ . in which he gave ten frivolous reasons for his practise of infant-baptism , for the confirming of his party who opposed my preaching there at that time , and since , and by the late passages in most of his writings , and in his last book of conversion p. . i finde him still the same he was . no doubt ( saith he ) but god doth pardon original sin to multitude of infants by the bloud of christ , through the covenant of grace which is made to the faithfull and their seed , and this pardon bestowed by the covenant is sealed by baptism which more solemnly conferreth it . it is most probable that god doth also make some change on the hearts of infants , secretly giving some seed of inward grace before or in their baptism . and p. . he hath this fool●sh passage . others withdraw upon pretence we are unbaptized , to which end they must coin a new baptism , or else they are at a loss . and their arguing with 〈◊〉 will be much like the papists , in the point of transubstantiation , which requireth that men renounce their sense and say , that they see not that which they se● , and feel not or tast not that which indeed they feel and tast , and then they may come to be in the right ; and so we must beleeve that we see none baptized in our churches , nor hear it , nor know of any such thing , and then we may come to be a church : as if the arguing were that there is nothing which paedobaptists call baptism in their churches , not , there is nothing that may bee truely called christian baptism according to christs institution , and then p. . after his fashion when he wants arguments , he adds . oh if it were the will of god that we could have as clear light in some other weighty points as we have in scripture for the baptism of the children of beleevers , how much would it do to quiet the understandings of many that are willing to know ! i dare not say it is a wonder to me to finde such passages in mr. baxter , but having examined his book of baptism , his ten reasons for his practise of infant baptism delivered in bewdley chappel may . . his letters to me . set down here sect . , &c. i cannot but bemoan the sad condition , first of ministers and people who are carried away with such shallow disputings , and confident speeches as mr. baxter hath used in these writings . . of my self , and all who go about to cleer truth , that they be necessi●ated to stir up such a nest of wasps and hornets ▪ as these have shewed themselves to be who have opposed me , if th●y do never so brotherly and fairly and regularly declare their judgments contrary to the common received tenents . yet i must confess two things have somewhat refreshed mee against the hard censures of those whom mr. blake mentions and the rest , the one that his highness , and council and the parliament since ( as i am informed ) confirming the ordinance for approbation of publique preachers seem to have better though●s of me in putting that trust on me , th● other that ( to mention no other ) two of the ablest acutest and well read divines and accurate dispu●an●s , which i have known the university of oxford in my time to have bred , and who have been thought sit for the divinity chair , have had far other conceits of my writings then these have had , the one not long after the publishing of my examen , expressing his rejoycing to see so accurate and scholastical a discussing of the point , which he found not in the assembly , wishing he had known of it afore the publishing of it that he might have prefixed an epistle , yet wishing it had been written in latin , as foreseeing that the publishing it in english was likely to beget me more trouble , then it would have done if printed in latin ; the other who since that wrote thus to me . i am a friend to your person ( whom i have known ( though not known to you ) this . years ) and to your opinion too ( as to the main of it ) for i beleeve and know , that there is neither precept nor practise in scripture for paedobaptism ▪ nor any just evidence for it for about two hundred years after christ. the first who bears witness to infant baptism prastised in the church is tertullian ▪ but so as he expres●●d slik●s and condemnes it as an unwarrantable and irrational custom● : and naxianzen a good while after him ( in his oration 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) dislikes it too , and would not have infants brought to baptism till they were of some age and able to answer for themselves . sure i am that in the primitive times they were first to be catechumini , ●f then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 illuminati , or baptizati , and that not onely children 〈◊〉 pagans ▪ or pagans converted , but children of christian parents , na●ianzen ( though a bishops son ) being not baptized till he was about . years of age , as appears in his life , and the like is evident of some others· the truth is , i beleeve p●dobaptism did ( how or by whom i know not ) come in in the d . century and in the d. and th . began to be practised ( though not generally ) and defended as lawfull from that text ( grosly misunderstood ) jo. . . vpon the like gross mistake of jo. . . they did for many centuries ( both in the greek and latin church ) communicate infants and give them the lords supper , and i confess they might do both as well as either : but although they baptized some infants and thought it lawfull so to do , yet augustin was the first that ever said it was necessary inde durus pater infantum . i have read what my learned and worthy friend dr. hammond , mr. baxter and others say in defence of it , and ( i confess ) i wonder not a little that men of such great parts should say so much to so little purpose , for i have not yet seen any thing like an argument for it . nor is it a small case to me that i finde after all mr. baxters shamefull and vain arguings against the truth , and injurious dealings with me and the baptized christians , with whom i hold communion , that yet at last , though quite besides his intentions , he hath so befriended our cause as to lend us twenty good arguments against infant baptism , in his d . disputation of right to sacraments , in the close of the th . saying thus p. . i conclude that all examples of baptism in scripture do mention onely the administration of it to the professors of saving faith : and the precepts give us no other direction . and i provoke mr. blake ( as far as is seemly for me to do ) to name one precept for baptizing any other , and make it good if he can . i know what he will pretend , that he intended th●s onely against mr. blakes opinion of baptizing upon a dogmatical faith and he means what he argues onely in the case of adult persons . but that doth not avoid his own arguments against himself , though he otherwise intended ; nor will his evasion serve till he prove , that there is a different precept or example for baptizing infants from that of baptizing adult persons , or that any are to be accounted beleevers or disciples by their parents o● , as his term is , proparents profession , which will never be done by him . i will not say as mr. blake saith some have said of me , that it is not possible but he goes against the dictates of his own conscience : but this i dare boldly say , that mr. baxter hath strongly disputed against inf●nt baptism in the place forenamed , pag. . asserting and proving arg. . we must not baptize any who profess not true repentance , pag. . arg. . we must baptize no man that first professeth not to bel●eve in god , ● . . argum. . it 's the very nature or appointed use of the external part of baptism it self ( yea essential to it ) to signifie and profess the saving faith and repentance of the baptized , pag. . arg . . we must baptize none that profess not their consent to enter themselves presently into the covenant of grace with god in christ , p. . arg . . we must not baptize any without the profession of that faith and repentance which are made the condition of remission of sins ; the rest have speeches to like purpose , in which though he puts in sometimes [ and their seed ] yet his proofs do all overthrow that his own addition , and tear off his patch which he hath printed to his argumen● , and as fully militate against his book of baptism as mr. blakes tenet ; so that to me it seems that by divine providence without his intention , una eademque manus vulnus opemque tulit : nor do i think but that if conscientious christians chiefly schollers , would read over that second disputation , they would be satisfied that infants ought not to be baptized but themselves , and that mr. baxter hath cheated the world by his book of baptism , and shewed himself therein an inconsiderate writer . but however this fall out , it is a great rejoycing to my soul , that god hath so long preserved my life and strength though now declining , to finish this part of the review also , and to see that part of it printed which is in answer to mr. baxters second main argument in his book of baptism , about his pretended ordinance of infants visible church-membership and its repeal , which some have given out as unanswerable , because this answer hath been so long in publishing ; not considering that besides the not knowing of his minde about it till . i have been necessitated to answer many others , and together with my constant labours , some other employments extraordinary with domestick distractions , necessity of respect to my bodily strength , want of help of books in some points , of learned men to whom i might have recourse , of an amanuensis , and chiefly the difficulty of getting it printed by reason of the great charge , which this book amounts to , and yet is not so readily put off as other smaller writings , and such as sute more with the minde of readers , of whom few seem to search after truth impartially , especially in controversies of this kinde . in this which is done my witness is in heaven how faithfully and sincerely i have dealt , which makes me slight the unrighteous censures of those mr. blake mentions , of mr. baxter , mr. firmin mr. gattaker , mr. ford , mr. crag and the rest . and for mr. john goodwin who so much magnifies mr. baxters book , i wish he and mr. horn his second would read this writing , which i take to be a sufficient answer , with the two fore-parts of this review , to what is said by mr. baxter and themselves in the point of infant-baptism . as for the point of schism or separation which mr. baxter , and he charge anabaptists with , i take my self no further concerned then mine own fact , which if they can prove to have been unbrotherly or unrighteous , i hope god wil so frame my heart as to testifie my repentance : if not , i advise them to take heed of rash judging , and all their followers of following them in that sin . if the objection be still set on foot , that those that are , as they term us , anabaptists , do fall into many false opinions , prove quake●s &c. i wish them better to examine reports of us , then mr. farmer , mr. breton , and others have done of me afore they spread them , and to look into the state of the societies of their own judgement , who if they be not guilty of such fallings , i shall rejoyce with them , and hope they will learn to pitty and endeavour to restore those who are fallen in the spirit of meekness ; if they be , that they will remember that it should be no more objected to us then to themselves . for my own part , i hope i shall not abet any such errour , nor do i know of any such errours or miscarriages in the churches to which i have associated which are not opposed and censured by us : nor do i think it equal we should be charged with that errour or miscarriage which we condemn . and i make bold to admonish paedobaptists in the lord , that they take heed of those practises which tend to the disquieting , defaming , hindering their brethren in the work of christ because of the supposed errour , as they term it , of anabaptism , lest they happily fight against god , and wrong their brethren , remembring that he that doth wrong shall receive for , the wrong he hath done , and there is no respect of persons with god , col. . . and to the end they may search their own consciences , and rightly judge of themselves , i presume they may do well to lay to heart th●se following qu●stions . . whether it be not a manifest perverting of the gospel of christ , to maintain that the covenant of gospel grace is made to each beleever and his seed . . whether it be not against the gospel to maintain , that the command of circumcision gen. . doth any way bind christian beleevers now in their practise ? . whether it be nor against the gospel to entitle p●rsons to the church visible christian by their natural generation of beleevers ? . whether it be not a manifest will-worship to practise the positive rite of infant-baptism as gods worship , which is confest to have neither precept nor example in the new testament ? . whether it be not a profanation of baptism to use it otherwise then christ appointed ? . whether by justifying infant baptism , the relinquish●ng of many popish and prelatical ceremonies which have as much of reason , tradition , authority of the church as it , be not condemned ? . whether it be not an oppression , and exercising of dominion over mens consciences , to tie them to acknowledge sacraments to be in their nature seals of the covenant of grace which the scripture terms not so , nor can be proved plainly from it , and to impose on them the practise of infant baptism under pain of guilt of sin which christ never appo●nt●d ? . whether it be not manifest hypocrisie to oppose the cross , surplice , &c. and to be zealous for infant baptism ? . whether they who justifie infant baptism and oppose baptism of believers at age confessed to be according to the institution of christ and primitive practise , are not partial in gods law and may expect to be made contemptible before all the people ? . whether they who do so , do not break the solemn covenant of endeavouring reformation according to gods word ? . how they that say they baptize infants into the name of christ , who sprinkle or powr onely some water on them , without any profession of the infant can be acquitted from saying falsly ? . by what rule those who are acknowledged visible church-members in infancy c●n be denied the lords supper ? . whether it be not a signe that paedobaptism is not according to rule , when there are so many differences about the title to it between papists and protestants , and the ablest protestants themselves ? . how they can make good the regularity of church-consti●ution , and the ordination of elders , who have no other baptism but that in infancy ? . how they can be free from the guilt of hardening souls in deadly presumption , who avouch the christianity of infants by natural birth , and infant baptism which is the great plea of ignorant and profane persons on which they rest ? . whether it be not a signe of injustice and want of love to truth , or adherence to a party , in them that will read and hear what one party saith for infant baptism , and refuse to read or he●r what the oppos●●s say , though they bring the plain institution of christ and his apostles practise for them ? . whether it be not an unrighteous course to charge the miscariages of persons either dead or strangers , on that doctrine or practise which countenanceth not them , or to persons who are no way abettors of them becaus of agreement in one opinion ? . whether division or schism is not chiefly to be imputed to those who violently oppose & inveigh against their brethren for holding & practising that which they conceive themselves bound to do by the plain command of christ which their opposites do acknowledge ? . whether such as impose infan baptism on their brethren who hold the faith and baptism confess●d to be from christ , and deal rigorously with them for not owning i● , do not as the papists , who impose with cruelty their own addi●ions o● those who otherwise are not denied to hold th● true faith a●d pract●s● ? . whether such pretenc●s as are made for infant baptism , and the imagined evil of anabaptism , can be a sufficient plea for baptism , and the imagined evil of anabaptism can be a su●f●cient plea for any truly godly person to neglect that baptism which christ hath so strictly commanded mat. . . mar. . . & the apostles constantly practised ? and sith mr. baxter hath with so much earnestness ministred so many interrogatories to me , i shall take the boldness to advise him to consider his own ways . . in giving such a title to his book of pl●in scripture proof of infants baptism , when there is not one text in all his book which speaks plainly or obscurely for it , yea it 's confessed by himself , that it is not plainly determined in scripture , p. . and is so dark in scripture that the controversie is become hard p. . . in his abusing so many texts of scripture as he ha●h done , chiefly the institution of bap●ism matth. . for infant baptism , as if they were disciples appointed there to be baptized , which is sufficiently refuted by himself in many places of baptism , p. , . of the right to sacraments from p. , to . . in coyning a new title to baptism by the profession of parents or pro parents , of which the scripture is altogether silent . . in his devising ●n ordinanc● of infants visible membership in the christian church , of which there is no foot step in all the bible . . in his many years clamorous abuses , and some kind of violent persecutions of my self and others of my judgement for not acknowledging these figments of his , but promoting reformation of baptism according to our duty . . in his unbrotherly printing my answers i made in the dispute at bewdley jan. . . without so much as acquainting me with it though living near him . . in blazing it abroad that he had driven me to gross absurdities , which yet he hath not in his answer to the . sect . of of my praecursor or elsewhere shewed to be so . . in his light passing over my urging his own words against infant baptism , about christs institution mat. . . in my praecurs . p. . in his praefest . morat . sect . . which is noted in the d . part of the review , p. , . which sure being from christs institution , deserved better consideration . . in condemning our rejection of infant baptism , though but an humane tradition , on no better grounds then papists build many of their ceremonies which he condemns , in asserting the covenant of grace to the faithfull and their seed , which in disputes against arminians is commonly denied by contraremonstrants . ▪ in his many false accusations of me as a sect master disturber of the church , which he cannot prove , in his scornfull expressions in the dispute and his books , in his injurious insinuations of me , as if i were blinded or hardened , occasioned the rise of quakerism and other errours , thereby indirectly creating odium to me and to the truth , and which is worst of all , weakning my hands in the work of christ , and particularly in taking off my quondam hearers at bewdley from hearing me , or permitting me there to preach in publike . none of which , nor any of the rest of his evil suggestions of me or the people baptized there or elsewhere , i pray god may be laid to his charge . i have no more to add , but to commend the reading of this and the other parts of the review to thy care , hoping that as the differences between the cis-jordan and trans-jordan israelites , and peter and the circumcised christians were composed by right in●elligence of their actions , so it may be in this , and that god will awaken the eyes of those who have opposed the truth i assert , with devices of an anti-evangelical covenant of grace to believers and their seed , a law and ord●nance of infants visible church membership no where extant , of baptizing infants according to the jewish pattern of baptizing proselytes , of an additional promise of casting elect children on elect parents ordinarily , of a command in force now , gen. . . of baptisms succession to circumcision and fetching a rule from it , of baptisms confer●ing grace , &c. will discern their errour , and embrace that light which they have hitherto shut out , and laying aside their vain disputes about the baptizing of infants of not churchmembers , profane , excommunicate parents , or proparents and such like , endeavour to restore that one baptism which with that one faith once delivered to the saints , may bring the churches of god to a right constitution and holy unity and order , and without which a right reformation covenanted will not be , and that go●ly pa●ents of tender consciences will take heed of bringing infants to baptism whereby it is profaned , and discern that it is their own duty to be baptized in the name of christ , and that the use of baptism is , as mr. baxter confesseth p. of right to sacraments , yea essential to it to signifie and profess the saving faith and repentance of the baptized ( which sh●ws infants are not baptized , sith th●y do not that which is essential to baptism and that which is essential must be in all ) and not to look upon it as their childrens priviledge , but as it was by christ appointed , by it engage themselves to follow the lord jesus ; which is the prayer of thy loving brother and real servant in christ ; john tombes . the contents . sect. . the second argument against infant baptism that it is will worship is confirmed . sect. . dr. homes his arguments to prove infant baptism from gen . are examined . sect. . mr. drews argument for infant baptism from gen. . is examined , and it is shewed that there is not the same reason of infant baptism as of infant circumcision . sect. . the covenant gen. . , , , , . was a mixt covenant . sect. . acts . , . proves not either the identity of covenant now with that to abraham gen. . . as it comprehends his natural seed , nor the connexion between i● and ●aptizability . sect. . the argument of mr. josia● church in his divine warrant for infant baptism , ●om their being judged in the promise of propriety in god is answered . sect. . bare judgement of charity concerning a persons interest in the promise is not a warrant to baptize . sect. . acts . , . proves that interest in the promise intitles not to baptism without repentance . sect. . infants are not proved by mr. church to bee of the visible church christian. sect. . infants capacity of some respects different from discipleship intitles them not to baptism . sect. . the agreements between circumcision and baptism do not justifie infant baptism , and the validity of sealing infants with an initial seal is shewed to be null . sect. . dr. featley his argument for infant baptism from the covenant is examined . sect. . the arguments of mr. william lyford from the covenant for infant baptism are answered . sect. . the arguments of mr. stalham , mr. brinsley , mr. hall , and a nameless author from the covenant for infant baptism are examined . sect. . the dispute of mr. john geree about the extent of the gospel covenant to prove thence infant baptism is examined , and it is shewed that interest in the covenant did not intitle to circumcision ; nor is it proved it doth now to baptism . sect. . that the gospel covenant is not extended to infants of believers as such . sect. . mr. cottons , the assembly's , and london ministers way of arguing for infant baptism from the covenant and circumcision is recited , and the method of the future progress in the review expressed . sect. . mr. marshals reply to the first section of the d. part of my examen about the connexion between the covenant and seal is reviewed . sect. . mr. blakes exceptions against my speeches in the point about the connexion between the covenant and initial seal are refelled . sect. the exceptions which in the first part of my review or antipaedobaptism sect . . are made against the proof of connexion between the covenant and initial seal , are confirmed against mr. blake vind . faed . ch . . sect . . sect. . the ten exceptions of the first part of my review●gainst ●gainst paedobaptists exposition and allegation of acts . , . for the connexion between the covenant and seal , are vindicated from mr. blakes answer vindic . f●d . ch . , . sect. . animadversions on ch . . part . ▪ of mr. thomas cobbet his just vindication touching the explication of acts . , . in which his exposition is shewed to be vain , and mine justified . sect. . the arguments drawn from acts . , . against the connexion between covenant interest , and baptism right , and infant baptism are vindicated from mr. cobbets answers . sect. . mr. sidenham's notes on acts . . in his exercitation ch . . are considered . sect. . mr. marshals reply to my examen about his first connclusion is reviewed , and the covenant gen. . still maintained to be mixt , and that gentile self-justitiaries , though reputed christians , are not termed abraham's seed , nor gal. . . proves it , and that the distinction of outward and inward covenant is not right . sect. . the mixture of the covenant as by me asserted , is vindicated from mr. blakes exceptions vind . faed . ch . . sect. . the four first chapters of mr. sidenham's exercitation are examined , and his vanity in his conceits about consequences proving infant baptism , the purity of the covenant gen. . infants of believers being abrahams seed and in covenant is shewed . sect. . it is proved from luk. . , . & . . joh . . rom. . , , , , , , . gal. . , ● , . & . . rom . , , . matth . . that the seed of abraham to whom the pro●ise as evangelical is made gen. . are onely true believers o● elect persons . sect. . the allega●ion of rom. . , . matth. . , , . to prove that the seed to which the promise gen. . . as evangelical belong● are true believers or the elect onely is vindicated from mr. blakes answer vindic faed . ch . . and mr. sidenhams e●ercitation ch . . sect. . of the meaning of mr. marshals second conclusion , the ambiguity of which is shewed . sect. . of the novelty and vanity of mr. marshals and others doctrine about sacraments being seals of the covenant of grace , and the several sealings of them . sect. . the exceptions in my examen part . . sect . . against mr. marshals speeches about the covenant and conditional sealing , are made good against mr. marshal and m● blake . sect. . that it is no error , as mr. baxter calls it ; but a truth , that the covenant of grace is made onely to the elect . sect. . mr. baxter hath not proved that the absolute promise or covenant is not it that is sealed in baptism . sect. . my speech about gods sealing to none but believers , is cleered from mr. baxters objections . sect. . christianity is not by birth , nor the church as civil corporations , mr. marshals equivocation in the use of the term [ covenant of grace . ] sect. ● . that the promise gen. . . proves not an external priviledge of visible churchmembership and initial seal to infants of gentile believers , as mr. marshal asserts . sect. . animadversions on the d. ch . of the first part of mr. thomas cobbets just vindic . sect . , , . about gen. . whereby his positions about church covenant and external priviledges of the covenant of grace are refe●led . sect. . animadversions on sect . th . of the same chapter , whereby the conceits of mr. cobbet about external being in the covenant of grace , are shewed to be vain . sect. . animadversions on sect . . of the same ch . shewing that mr. cobbets supposed visible interest in gods covenant is not the rule of baptizing . sect. . animadversions on the th . sect . of the same ch . shewing that christ is not head of any unsound members , nor parents profession unites children to christ so as to entitle them to baptism . sect. . animadversions on sect . ●h . of the same ch . shewing that the body of the jewish church , even the worst of them , was not under the covenant of grace in respect of external interest therein . sect. . that the covenant at mount sinai was a covenant of works and not of evangelical grace , and that the jewish church and state were but one body . sect. . animadversions on the th . sect . of the same ch . in which the covenant interest external and ecclesiastical of infan●s of inchurched believers , is pretended not proved to be gospel , and his allegations of deut. . , &c. gen. . . luk. . . deut. . , &c. ezek. . , &c. gen. . , . and other places are examined . sect. . mr. cobbets answers to objections against his th . concl . part . . c. . sect . . of his just vindic . are considered , and mr. blakes tener concerning the general nature of a covenant that it i● a mutual agreement . sect. . the , , . chapters of mr. blakes vind . faed . are examined , and it is shewed that he hath not proved the covenant of grace in gospel times to admit or to be made to any but the elect regenerate . sect. . mr. blakes vindic . faed . ch . . concerning the stating the question of the birth ▪ privil●●ge of the issue of believers is examined , and his objections against my stating it removed . sect. . the th , and th . chapters of mr. blakes vindic . faed . are examined , and his arguments concluding the natural issue of believers to be taken into covenant are answered . sect. . the th . ch . of mr. baxters part . . of plain script . proof , &c. is examined , his conceits about infants visible churchmembership and their admission considered , and sundry animadversions made on that chapter . sect. . the . ch . of mr. brs. plain scrip &c. p. . is examined , and the texts gal. . , &c. mat. . . cleered so as to prove infants now no visible churchmembers . sect. . the arguments from altering of the jewish church constitution and call , the ceasing of the high priest , &c. to prove infants now no visible churchmembers , are made good against mr. baxters . ch . plain , &c. part . . sect. . it is proved that infants were not reckoned to the visible church christian in the primitive times , nor are now . sect. . letters between me and mr. baxter are set down , concerning the law and ordinance of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed , which he as●●rt● , whereby the point is stated . sect. . infants were visible churchmembers onely in the congregation of israel . sect. . infants of the jews were not visible churchmembers by promise or precept , as mr. baxter teacheth . sect. . that the people and thereby the infants of the hebrews were made visible churchmembers by a transeunt fact , is made good against mr. baxters exceptions . sect. . mr baxters law of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed is not proved from gen. . , , . or gen. . . sect. . infants visible churchmembership is not proved by the law of nature . sect. . the sayings of adam , eve , noah , concerning cain , seth , shem , the term [ sons of god , gen. . . ] prove not mr. baxters law of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed . sect. . mr. baxters law of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed , is not proved from gen. . or . or . sect. . covenants , promises and speeches in the old testament of israel , the righteous , prove not mr baxters law of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed . sect. . mr. baxters th . and th . questions about the repealableness and repeal of his imagined law of infants visible churchmembership , and his . additionals are answered sect. . mr. baxters ten calumniatory questions and the conclusion of his letter are answered . §ect . . my answer in the dispute and sermon to the argument of mr. baxter of baptism part . . ch . . about the nonrepeal of infants churchmembership because neither in justice nor in mercy is vindicated . §ect . . mr. baxters arguments from matth. . . revel . . . for infants visible churchmembership ch , , . are answered . §ect . . mr baxters th , th , th , concerning infants better condition in the n. t. in his th , , th , chapters part . . of baptism , to prove their visible churchmembership are answered . §ect . . mr. baxters argument ch . . part . . of baptism , from deut. . , , . is answered , and my answers vindicated . §ect . . neither from rom. . . nor by other teason , hath mr. baxter proved ch . . . part . . of baptism , that infant churchmembership was partly na●ural , partly grounded on the law of grace and faith . §ect . . mr. baxter ch . . by his th . argument from infants being once members of the universal visible church , hath not proved their visible churchmembership unrepealed . §ect . . mr. baxters th . and th . arguments from the promise of mercy exod . . . and of blessing psal. . . are answered . sect. . mr. baxters th . argument from the priori●y of infants church-membership before circumcision , his th . from gods mercy , his ● th . from blessing and cursing deut. . are answered . sect. . mr. baxters . argument from the absurdity of my doctrine making all infants members of the devils visible kingdome is answered . sect. . mr. baxters . argument ch . ● . that my doctrine leaves no ground of hope of salvation of infants dying is answered . sect. . mr. baxters allega●ions p. , , . shew not a stronger ground of hope of infants salvation so dying then mine , his d . argument ch . . his th . ch . . are answered . §ect . . my arguments to prove the ingraffing rom. . . ●o be into the invisible church by giving faith , are vindicated from mr. blakes exceptions vindic . faed . ch . . and mr. sidenhams exercit. ch . , . sect. . my sense of matrimonial holiness cor. . . is vindicated from mr. blakes exceptions vindic . faed . ch . and mr. sidenhams exercit. ch . . sect. . mr. william carters attempt of proving the christian sabbath from heb. . , , . is shewed to be successeless , and so useless for proof of infant baptism . sect. . mr. carters exposition of gen. . , , . as if god promised to make every believer a blessing , so as to cast ordinarily elect children on elect parents is refuted . sect. . neither did circumcision seal mr. carters additional promise , nor was abraham thence termed father of believers . §ect . . mr. carters conceit as if gen. . . were a command in force to abrahams spiritual seed in the n. t. is shewed to be vain . §ect . . the succession of baptism to circumcision , and their identity for substance to us is shewed to be unproved by mr. carter , mr. marshal , mr. church , dr. homes , mr. cotton , mr. fuller , mr. cobbet , from col. . , . or elsewhere . §ect . . notwithstanding mr. carters allegations of acts . , . cor. . . rom. . , . mark . . acts . . matth. . . the n. t. appears to be silent about mr. carters additional promise and infants baptism . §ect . ● . interest in the covenant gave not title to circumcision as mr. marshal in his th . concl would have it . §ect . . the enlargement of our priviledges proves not infant baptism as mr. marshal in his th . concl . would have it . §ect . . mr. cobbets dictates just. vindic . part . . ch . . touching childrens baptismal right are examined and refelled . §ect . the th . and th . chapters of the first part of mr. rutherfords book of the covenant are examined , and found to make nothing for infant baptism . §ect . . the disasters in germany and our present distractions sprung not from anabaptism as mr. crag saith . §ect . . austins saying about apostolical traditions is not to be rested upon , nor his testimony about the antiquity of infant baptism . §ect . . the testimonies of the ancient writers of the greek church concerning infant baptism are examined and my exception● made good against mr. crag , dr. hammond , dr. homes , mr. marshal . sect. . the arguments to prove infant baptism an innovation in the greek churches exam. p. . are made good against mr. marshal , and dr. homes . sect. . the testimonies of tertullian for infant baptism , and dr. hammonds interpretation of ch . . de animâ , are examined with cor. . . sect. . dr. hammonds imagined evidence from [ hath been sanctified ] for his sense of the forepart of cor. . . nullified , and my opinion of enallage of tense vindicated . sect. . dr. hammonds rendring [ by cor. . ▪ ] is refelled , and my ●endring 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ to ] justified . sect. . it is shewed that dr. hammond hath no proof from cor. . . for his sense of the forepart of v. . nor will his sense of holy for baptized agree with the apostles argument , though his sense of the forepart of the verse were granted . sect. . dr. hammonds reasons from the terms holy and unclean for his sense of baptized or not baptized are refelled . sect. . the jewish custome of baptism for initiation was not the pattern of christian baptism , as dr. hammond would have it . sect. . matth. . . infants are excluded from being subjects of baptism notwithstanding dr. hammonds pretensions . sect. . the testimonies of cy●rian , augustin , and other latin fathers for infant baptism , are shewed to have come from their mist●kes , and the evidences why the antiquity of infant baptism should not be deemed such as is pretended , are vindicated . sect. . mr. crags objections about my nine untruths , his discourse about rebaptizing are refelled . sect. . the arguments of mr. crag for infant baptism are re-examined . errata . pag ; . l , . r , he premiseth . p , . l , . r , . p , . l , . r , nor is ; l , . r , . p , . l , . r , mere . p , . l , . r , motive ; l , . r , they are vain . p , . l , . r , not onely . p , . l , . r , yea ▪ p , . l , . r , commenders ; l , . r , opinion ; l , . r , probability ; l , . r , disputation ; l , . r , external . p , . l , . r , . l , . r , . l , . r , speci . p , . l. . r. . . p , . l , . r , peculiar ; l , . r , . p , . l , . r , seal . p , . l , . r , conveys . p , . l , . r , ejection . p , . l , . r , not sealed . p , . l , , . the lines are misplaced p , . l , . r , and not still be admitted to the like initiating sacrament . p , . l , . r , erant . p , . l. ● . r , own . p , . l , . r , persecuted ; l , . r , some . p , . l , . r. p , . l , . r find . p , . l , . r , fiction ; l , . r , wont . p . l , . r , invisible : p , . l , . r swerved . p , . l , . r , then ; l , , . r , apposite . p , . l , . r , par . p , . l , . r , he tels . p , . l , . r , baxter . p , . l , . r , app●site . p , . l , . r , remission of sins . p , . l , . r , incognitum , p , . l , ● . r , number . p , . l , . r , eyed . p , . l , r , mislike ; l , . r apposite . p , . l , . r , meant by ; l , . r , comprehended . p , ● . l , . r , dichotomie . p , . l , . r , branches , d ▪ and. p , . l , . d , or the inward . p , . l , . d , not . p , . l , . r , they , l , . r , unbaptizable . p , . l , . r , belong . p , . l , . r , of this . p , . l , . r , seed , which ; l , . r , because and as . p , . l , . r , that knows . p , . l , , . r , doth not agree : p , . l , . r , regenerate : p , . l , . r , rom. . . p , . l , . r , now : p , . l , . r , visible : p , . l , . r , type : p , . l , ● . r , is not : p , . l , ▪ r , abrohamites antecedently : p , . l. . r , pentance neither have ours ; l , , r , nor is : p , . l , . r , l. c. l , . r , e.g. p , . l , . r , mediation : p , . l , . r , revelation ; l , . r , of science or : l , , r ▪ an act ; l , , r , contenting : p , . l , . r , types of christ ; l , . r , hath not ; l , . r , in this ; l , . r , alluded : p , . l. . r , me to : p , . l , . d ▪ not : p , . l , . r , vent ; l , , . r , syncretism : p , . l , . d , not ; l , . r , derive ; l , . r , to be a seal be : p , . l , . r , term ; l , . r , jews : p , . r. l , . r , he had : r , . l , . r , our ; l , . r , passing ; l , . r , if it ▪ p , . l , . r , . p , . l , . r , p ▪ p , . l , . r , in my ; l , . r , reviewed : p , ● . l , . r. flings : p , . l , . d , not ; l , . r , and seals ; l , . r , cerning : p , . l , . r , first grace ; l , . r , what sense : p , . l , ● . r , contradistinguisheth : p , ● . l , . d , not ▪ l , . r , asserting : p , . l , . r , as . p , . l , . r , there , l , . r , and not : p , . l , . r , charged : p , . l , . r , & ward . p , , l , . r , 〈◊〉 : p , . l , . r , . l , , . r , all at age p , . l , . r , my ; l , . r , instance , l , ● . r , stony : p , . l , . r , futility : p , . l , . r , it were ; l , . d , to ; l , . r , sealing : p , . l , . r , ly ; l , . r , that ▪ l , . d , i : p , ● . l , . r , reason i● ; l , ● . r , and the : p , . l , . r , art : p , ● . l , . r , external : p , l , . d , not : p , . l , . r , during the ; l , , . d , in the right administration of it : p , . l , . r , no where ; l , . r , elect allusive : p , . l , . r , afore . l , . r , contain ; l , . r , it proper to israel : p , . l , . r , but that such are to be ; l , . r , act is a ; l , . r , they are : p , . l , r , were : p , . l . r , without that ; l , . r , john : p , . l , . r , professor : p , ● . l , . r. or : p , l. . d , and ; l , . r , yea under yet were : p , . l . r , was ; l , r , that which , l , . r , visible interest : p , . l , ult . r , noting p , . l , . r , unto : p , . l , . r , winding : p , . l , . r , expected : p , . l , . r , no transgressors : p , . l , . r , know not : p , . l , . r , of grace : p , . l , . r , come : p ▪ . l , . r , meer professor : p , . l , ▪ r , is a seal to the gentiles that believe of the righteousness of faith though they be never circumcised ; l , . r , were such ; l , . d , were : p , . l , . r , are : p , . l , . r , inference ; l , . r , exilia : p , . l , . r , assert ; l , . r , whence ; l , . r , tenet : p , , l , . r , condition . at yy the figures are wrong by reason of the use of two pres●es ; for after . sect . . is p , . ag●in : p , . l. . r , of which ▪ p , . l , . r , vasorum : p , ● . l , . r , desert : p , . l , . r , ever : p , . l , . r , to : p , . l , . r , nor : p , . mis●printed . l , . r , unto what : p , . l , . r , indefinitely : p , . l , . r , special : p , . l , . r , desertion : p , . l , . r , mere : p , . l , . r , cause : p , . l , . r , of all : p , . l , . r , he is : p , . l , . r , many : p , . l , . r , use no : p. . l , . r , churchmembers : p , . l , . r , on condition : p , . l , penult . r , righteousness : p , . l , . r , can : p , . l , . r , not : p. . l , . r , it was . p , . l , . r. who hath . p , . l , . r , is not . p , . l , . r , sarcastical . p , . l , . r , an . p , . l , . r , might well . p , . l , . r , there . p , . l , . r , import . p , . l , . r , concrete . p , . l , . r , deny . p , . l , . r , sanction . p , . l. . r , did not . p , . l , . r , were not . p , . l , . r ▪ benefit . p , . l , . d , not . p , . l , . r , the time . p , . l , . r , is . p , . l , . r , there . p , . l , . r , formally . p , . l , . r , there . p , ▪ l , . r , janua . p , . l , . r , there were . p , . l , . r , ambigua . p , . l , . d , of . p , . l , . r , not . p , . l , . r , one parent was . p , . l , . d , be . p , . l , . r , which it was ; l , . r , na●i . p , . l , . r , and also . p , . l , . r , inference which . p , . l , . r , of the chair . p , ● . l , ● . r , . p , . l , . r , ca●achresis . p , . l , . d , in ; l , . r , form ▪ p , . l , . r , pu● . p , . l , . r , comprehend . p , . l , . r , or not . p , . l , . r , not ●s . p , . l , . r , denegandam . p , . l , . r , desert . p , . l , . r , conten● . books published by the author . christs commination against scandalizers , on luk. . , . printed for richard royston , at the sign of the angel in ivy lane , london . jehovah ●ireh , o● , gods providence in delivering the godly ; in two sermons on pet. . . on occasion of preserving bristol from a plot to deliver it to prince rupert , march . . printed for michael sparks at the blew bible in green arbour , london . fermentum pharis●orum , or , the leaven of pharisaical will-worship ; in a sermon on matth. . . printed for andrew crook at the green dragon in pauls church-yard , london . anthropolatria , or the sin of glorying in men ; on cor. . . printed for john bellamy , at the three golden lions in cornhil , london . two treatis●s concerning infant baptism , to wit ▪ an exercitation , and examen of mr. stephen marshals sermon ; printed for george whittington , and to be sold at the blackmore at fleet-b●idge london by w. larnar . an apology for the two treatises , printed for g. calvert at the black spread eagle at the west end of pauls , london . an antidote against the venome of a passage of mr. richard baxter , printed for thomas brewster at the three bibles at the west end of pauls , london . an addition to the apology in a letter to mr. robert baillee of scotland : printed by henry hills , next door to the sign of the peacock in aldersgate-street , london . pracursor , or a fore-runner to the review : printed for the same . antipaedobaptism , or the first part of the full review of the dispute concerning infan● baptism : printed for henry crips and lodowick lloyd in popes-head alley near lumbard-street , london . a plea for antipaedobaptists , against mr. john craggs dispute and sermon at abergavenny : printed for henry hills above named . antipaedobaptism , or the second part of the full review of the dispute concerning infant baptism : printed for the same . joannis tombes be●dleiensis refutatio positionis dris . henrici savage londini : typi● henrici hills . antipaedobaptism , or the the third part of the full review of the dispute concerning infant baptism : london , printed for henry hills above named . finis . anti-paedobaptism : or , the third part of the full review of the dispute concerning infant-baptism , refuting the proof of it from circumcision and the covenant . sect . i. the second argument against infant-baptism , that it is will-worship , is confirmed . having proceeded so far in the review of the dispute concerning infant-baptism , as to vindicate the texts , rom. . . act. , . cor. . . from such glosses as tend to wrest them to the maintenance of it , and to make good my first argument against it , from the institution of christ , mat. . . mark. . . the apostles and primitive evangelists practice and sayings , in two parts of the review already printed , i go on to the finishing of the rest of the forementioned review . my second argument against infant-baptism is thus formed , that which is will-worship is not agreeable to the will of god , nor according to the rule of baptizing : but the ordinary baptizing of infants , though by a lawful minister , is will-worship . ergo. the major is proved , . from col. . . where will-worship is disallowed by the apostle , and so generally commentators and other authors account will-worship a sin . doctor lakes defence about the sabbath , thes. . ye know that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did never please god ; yet doctor hammond in his treatise of will-worship , will have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or will-worship , to be understood in the better sense . but against it are the fra●● of the apostles words , and the drift of them , which is to blame them for being subject to ordinances after the doctrines and commandments of men , as not agreeing with a christians co-dying with christ ; and he saith , such things have a shew of wisdom : and verse . he that promiseth that none do beguile them of thei● reward 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , willing in humility , or as our translators , in a voluntary humility . i may not now divert from the present business to examine doctor hammonds allegations , there being enough in that text to prove , service as done to god , invented by men , and practised after their commands , without gods appointment , not to be after gods will : and i take doctor hammond to be well answered by mr. cawdrey . . however the major is plainly proved from christs words , mat. . . in vain do they worship me , teaching for doctrine mens precepts ; which proves that worship which is taught after mens precepts ( which is the same with will-worship in my proposition ) is in vain , and therefore not agreeable to the will of god. but i need not say any more about it , sith my antagonists do most of them except against will-worship as a sin . the minor is proved thus , that which is worship not appointed by god , is will-worship : but the ordinary baptizing of infants of believers , churched or unchurched , though by a lawful minister , is worship not appointed by god. ergo. the major is confirmed from the very definition of will-worship , which is , a worship of god nor appointed by him , but taken up according to the command of man , out of mat. . . the minor is proved , by demanding a scripture wherein god appointed infant-baptism . in answer hereto , in conference with me , it was once denied that infant-baptism was used as a worship of god : but if so , then it is no holy thing , no sacrament , no profaneness to contemn it , no matter if a midwife do it , with many more of the like absurdities . master blake in his answer to my letter ch . . pag. . vindic. foed . ch . . denies infant-communion , bell-baptism , to be will-worship , he makes will-worship then when men devise an ordinance , but not when it is onely an abuse , profanation , misapplication of an instituted worship to a wrong subject . and master marshall page . of his defence , would put me to prove , that all things belonging to christian worship , even in the circumstances of it , even the ages and sexes of the persons to whom the ordinances are to be applyed , must be expressely set down in the n. t. pag. . there is no absolute necessity , that every circumstance of an ordinance , or the several sexes or ages to whom an ordinance ought to be applied , must be set down in precept , or apostolical example equivalent to a precept , found in the n.t. pag. . the point about infant-baptism toucheth but a circumstance of age . in which speeches mr. m. seems to make infant-baptism but an arbitrary circumstance ; and if so , then much injury was in the first use of his sermon , in which he made the denial of infant-baptism , odious , as if it were as bad or worse than the facts of herod , and hazael in slaying infants ; then much guilt of oppression lies on them that have denied place in the ministery , scourged , imprisoned , fined , banished , put to death men for opposing , or not owning infant-baptism ; and very unrighteous have been their declamations , who in pulpits and elsewhere have inveighed against them as hereticks , sectaries , &c. censured their opinion as intolerable , as maresius qu. . their practice as sacrilege , as master blake vindic . foed . ch . . if master m. do indeed think the point of infant-baptism to touch but a circumstance of age , and that it needs no divine institution , then it is an indifferent ceremony with him , such as the power of the church may appoint , and if so , it is no otherwise blameable to omit it , than it is to omit any other church-constitution . but the truth is , it is false which he saith , that the matter toucheth onely a circumstance of age : for indeed it toucheth the qualification of the person to be baptized ; and the very end and use of baptism ( which are the essentials of it , as it is a sacrament ) which is , that the person baptized , do thereby testifie his profession of repentance and faith in christ , and covenant to be his , as appears by the very phrase used , of being baptized into the name of the trinity , mat. . . compared with cor. . . as i have proved before , part . sect. . and were it a circumstance onely of age , yet it being determined by christ , who are to be baptized , to wit , disciples and belie●●●s , it is an arrogant presumption to alter it . rightly saith chamie● panstr . tom . ● lib. . c. . sect. . quae non sunt institutae circumstantiae habeto sane sibi ecclesia , ut tempus locumque celebrandi , & si quae sunt similia . at quae instituta sunt ea ne moveto . as for m. blakes speech , that a misapplication of 〈◊〉 instituted ordinance to a wrong subject , is an abuse or profanation of it , but not will-worship , . it is not right . for though every misapplication to a wrong subject of an instituted ordinance be not will-worship , yet a misapplication to a wrong subject of an instituted ordinance is a will-worship , when not onely the rite it self is made worship of god , but also the application of it to that subject , though it be but mens invention , yea and such a one as alters the end and use of the ordinance ▪ as is in infant baptism , bell-baptism , altar-baptism , infant-communion , prayer , sacrifice , vows , keeping solemn feasts , offering incense , building altars , were instituted ordinances , yet jeroboams sacrificing and keeping a feast at another time than god appointed , ahaz his forming an altar after the pattern of that at damascus , nadab and abihu their offering strange fire , prayer to saints , for the dead , vowes to saints , monastick profession after such a rule , keeping of holy dayes to saints , and many other things among pagans , and papists , are : condemned as will-worship . generally protestants , even the assembly in their conffession of faith , chap. . art . . make the lifting up , reserving the elements in the eucharist , contrary to matth. . . and chap. . they say , the acceptable way of worshiping the true god is instituted by himself , and so limited to his own revealed will , that he may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men , or suggestions of satan , under any visible representations , or any other way not prescribed in the holy●scripture ; yea the non-conformists have gone further in so censuring the three ceremonies , cross at baptism , kneeling at the lords supper , the wearing the surplice in holy ministrations , to be will-worship , as the abridgement of the lincolnshire ministers petition , and other writings shew , and d. morton in his defence , and d. burges in his rejoynder to the reply , chap. . and elsewhere , acquit them onely from will-worship , in that they placed not holiness in them , made them not necessary parts of worship , which i presume m. blake will not say of infant-baptism , the denial of which he counts , though vainly , to be sacrilege , vindic. foed . chap. . and sure baptisms were instituted ordinances among the jews , heb. . . yet our lord christ applies the prophets censure of will-worship , isai. . . against the pharises placing holiness and fear of god in their washings of hands and other things so often and in the manner they used . mark. . , , , , , , . secondly , were it granted , that it is not properly will-worship to misapply an instituted ordinance to a wrong subject , yet if it be an abuse or profanation , the matter is no whit mended with m. blake , if i put in my argument instead of the term ( will-worship ) the term ( profanation or abuse ) i presume paedobaptists will not justify a profanation or abuse , which infant-baptism is acknowledged to be if it be not after gods appointment or christs institution . wherefore m. m. and the most of the paedobaptists , not trusting to these evasions seek for an appointment of infant-baptism in the institution of infant-circumcision , gen. . yet m. baxter in his p●●in scripture proof , part . . chap. . &c. declines the command of circumcision for proof of infant-baptism , and imagins an ordinance of their visible church-membership , distinct from the ordinance of circumcision , unrepealed , out of which he endeavours to prove infant-baptism , though he no where that i know shew us where that ordinance is , notwithstanding in my praecursor and elsewhere he hath been often pressed to shew it , which book of m. b. taking so much , that a third edition is printed , i had hoped paedobaptists would have stuck to his way , and declined the other way of analogy of the command of circumcision . but i see latter books , as m. sidenham , m. fuller , and others , still insisting on the hypothesis concerning the covenants and the seal , and baptisms succession to circumcision , &c. m. gataker in his latin treatise against d. ward about the force and efficacy of infant-baptism , though by his epistle ▪ it appears he had seen m. baxters books , yet p. . he speaks thus to d. ward . i would you had specially designed the command concerning the baptizing the infants of believers , which you mean. for although from the analogy of circumcision , and the nature of this very sacrament , as it is destined to initiation , the comprehension of infants in the covenant of grace &c. i deservedly believe both the antient church to have used , and the church at this day justly to use infant-baptism , yet hitherto i have found no speciall command concerning this thing . i wish he had formed and confirmed his proof for infant-baptism from the analogy of circumcision , &c. so antient , learned a man , and so accurate in controversies , me thinks should have yielded some better proof for infant-baptism than others have don , or have forborn calling them novel sectaries who with so much endeavour oppugn infant-baptism ( which is the expression in his epistle to the reader ) and with-held his hand from subscribing to that attestation wherein the four positions of my examen were censured as erroneous and pernicious . but not meeting with any other proof than this , i shall keep on in the review of the dispute , and examine the pretended institution of infant-baptism out of the old testament , taking in some texts of the new , and first examine the way of proof by analogy of circumcision , which seems to have been the assemblies way , and then m. bs. more refined way , as is imagined , desiring the reader to take notice of what was before disputed in the second section of the second part of this review , to prove that consequences drawn from analogy between meer positive rites of the old and new testament to prove a duty in the use of them , without particular institution , are not good . sect . ii. dr. homes his arguments to prove infant-baptism from gen. . are examined . two wayes i finde consequences framed , one in arguments formed syllogistically , the other in certain conclusions or hypotheses from whence it is conceived they may deduce infant-baptism . i begin with the former way . i had formed the argument from gen. . . &c. three wayes , in my exercit. sect. , , . and that without disadvantage to my antagonists , notwithstanding d. homes his exceptions . but i am content to view the forms d. homes sets down , as more agreeable to their minde . in his animadversion on my exerc. chap. . pag. . he saith , our first form of argument from gen. . . &c. is this . where there is a command for a thing never remanded on contramanded , there the thing is still in force . but there is a command for signing the infants of a believer with the sign of the covenant of grace , gen. . , . never yet remanded or contramanded : therefore the signing believers children with the sign of the covenant of grace ( namely baptism now ) is still in force . to which i answer , . the conclusion is not of the thing in question , which is not of the children of believers , but of the infant-children of believers , as it was in the minor , now a person of . years of age is a believers child , as well as one of two dayes old . . in the minor ( the sign of the covenant of grace commanded ) is understood , either of the sign of the covenant of grace expressed in the conclusion , to wit , baptism , and if so , it is denied that there is any such command , gen. . , . to sign with the sign of the covenant of grace believers infants , there 's no command but of circumcising the manchild of eight dayes old , not a tittle of baptism : or else of a sign of the covenant of grace there expressed , and if so , the minor is denied , that the command for signing the infants of a believer with the sign of the covenant of grace , gen. . , . was never yet remanded or contramanded . it was expressely contramanded acts . . gal. . , , . if in the conclusion by ( the sign of the covenant of grace ) be meant as the words ( namely baptism now ) import , the rite of christian baptism , and in the minor it be meant of the command of circumcision , then there is a fault of the syllogism in the form , it consisting of four terms . if in the minor i● be meant of the sign of the covenant indefinite , which is neither baptism nor circumcision , i deny there is such a command , gen. . , . and the syllogism hath also fourth terms . two other forms he hath pag. . . form of argument from gen. . is this . to whom the covenant in force runs in the same tenour in the new testament as in the old , to them the application of the first sign or seal of the new testament may be applied ▪ as well as the first of the old testament : but this tenour of the covenant of grace still in force , is as true , and doth as truely run to a believing gentile , i am thy god and the god of thy seed , as it did to abraham the father of believing gentiles , rom. . gal. . ergo , the first seal of the covenant may be applied to believers children , now in the new testament as well as in the old to abrahams . the major is plain in gen. . the tenor of the covenant , and the application of the first seal , are knit into a dependence one upon another . i am the god of thee , and thy seed , v. , . therefore thou shalt circumcise every male , v. . &c. the minor is unquestioned of any that i know . answer . the thing to be concluded was , that baptism may be applied , but baptism and the first seal of the covenant i do not take to be all one . baptism or circumcision i do no where finde in scripture called the seal of the covenant , much less the first seal , and why the blood of christ , or the spirit of christ , or the oath of god may not be called the first seal of the covenant as well as these , i know not ; again the conclusion was to be ( may be applied to infant-children of believers ) where as the conclusion is ( may be applyed to believers children ) and the thing to be concluded was simply ( baptism may be applied to infants of believers ) whereas it is propounded comparatively ( now in the new testament as well as in the old to abraham ) now baptism was not applied to abraham , and therefore the conclusion may be granted ( baptism may be applied to infants of believers now as well as to abraham ) that is , just never a whit , sith it was never applied to abraham . . but besides , if the phrases ( to whom the covenant in force runs &c. ) in the major , and in the minor , ( doth as truely run to a believing gentile ) ( as the words carry it ) be meant onely of the believer , and in the major ( the application to them ) be meant onely of the believing gentile as in the minor , then there are more than three term● in the syllogism , ( applied to believers children ) beeing not at all in either of the premises . but if it be put in the major ( may be applied to them and their infants ) and in the minor ( to a believing gentile and his infant children ) i deny both major and minor. nor the major proved from gen. . , , . as in my answer to m. bailee , sect. . in my ample disquisition sect . is made manifest , by shewing the nullity of the pretended connexion between the covenant and the seal ; the term ( therefore ) gen. . . ) may be read ( and ) and it hath not reference to the promise onely , v. . but to the rest of the promises , v , , , , . or rather to the whole covenant , and the making of it , and it imports not a right by vertue of the covenant , but a motive inforcing a command , and this command being of circumcising the male onely of . dayes old , shewes there is not a connexion between the covenant and seal , sith then it would belong to the female and male of the seventh day , they being in covenant as well as the male of the eighth . the minor he takes as unquestioned , but i deny it , till i finde it better proved than yet i have done . i omit the uncoutheness of the phrase ( to them the application of the first sign may be applied ) and leave the d. to make good sense of it , which i cannot do . his . form of argument from gen. . is , where there is the same reason of a precept , there may be the same practice : but the promise which is the reason of the precept runs in the new testament ( as flowing from gen. . ) to believers and their children , the promise is to you and your children , acts. . . ergo. answer . what is the conclusion he would prove he leavs to be gathered . it should be , infants of believers are to be baptized . but then the predicate in the conclusion would be found in neither of the premisses . for the precept gen. . . is onely that male infants of . days old of abrahams house should be circumcised . but a little after he puts this as the conclusion , that the same reason on which the administration of circumcision was grounded , the administration of baptism was grounded . which i grant true in this sense , that as the reason why circumcision was administred to infants was the command of god , so the reason why baptism is to be administred to believers , is the command of christ. but the d. would have it thus , that as infants were to be circumcised by vertue of the promise , gen. . . so infants of believers are to be baptized by vertue of the same promise repeated acts . . concerning which , to omit the monstrosity of his syllogism , in which there are more than terms , and neither the predicate nor subject in the conclusion , major or minor , his speeches are without proof or trueth . for . it is not true , where there is the same reason of a precept there may be the same practice . for levit. . , , , , , , , , , . are precepts concerning mosaical ceremonies or observances , as of offering a sacrifice , of peace offerings , not reaping the corners of the field , not sowing the field with mingled seed , not wearing a garment of linnen and woollen , not eating fruit of trees planted till the fourth yeer , not eating any thing with the blood , not rounding the corners of the head , reverencing the sanctuary , to wit , the tabernacle or temple , and these with other moral precepts mixed among them in the same chapter , have in sundry of those verses , and the beginning and end of the chapter , this as the common reason , i am the lord , and yet we are not by the same reason tied to all the practices . . he doth not prove that the promise , acts . . is the same with the promise , gen. . . it is more likely to be either the promise , act. . , , . or act. . . or act. . . which were eminent promises , and related to the covenant of grace . . he doth not prove that ( to you , act. . . ) is ( to you believers and to your children ) that is , the infants of believers as such : it doth not appear they were then believers when these words were spoken . . nor is there a word that shews the promise was to them or their children , whether called or no. . nor is it proved that the promise to abraham and his seed , gen. . . was the onely reason of the precept , vers . , . . if it were so proved , it is not proved , nor ever can be , that it was the formal adequate reason , why an infant was circumcised . . nor is there the least hint in the words , act. . , . that the reason why a person hath right to be baptized , is barely the being of the promise to that person , or gen. . , , . any hint that the promise barely of it self , did either give right to circumcision , or oblige to the duty , but in both places it is brought as a motive to excite to that duty , which the precept alone was the formal reason of , and in the former as well of repentance as of being baptized . so that when the doctor hath formed his arguments , they are but mishapen things , having many ambiguities of speech , little or no proof for what he saith . and notwithstanding the doctors cavils , i yet think the arguments from gen. . were better formed by me in my exercitation for paedobaptists advantage , than by the doctor in his animadversions : but perhaps we may finde the arguments better formed elsewhere . sect . iii. master drew's argument for infant-baptism from gen. . is examined , and it is shewed , there is not the same reason of infant-baptism , as of infant-circumcision . master john drew is one of those to whose writings master baxter refers me , and is said by the author of the lawfulness of obeying the present government , to have written with sharp reasons and mild language . let 's see how he hath disputed pag. . of his serious address ; where there is the same reason of a precept or command enjoyning any practice continued , there may and must be the same practice continued : but the reason of the command for signing infants of covenanters with the first signe or seal of the covenant under the old testament continues still in force for that practice under the new testament . therefore now that command is in force to all persons in covenant , as it was then . answ. the command in force then to all persons in covenant , is expressed by himself in the words before , pag. . . the command of circumcision , gen. . , . when he saith ( all the infants of those in covenant with god were signed with the first signe or seal of the covenant then instituted and commanded by the lord , which was circumcision ) so that if he mean , as his words are , this is his meaning in his conclusion ( that command which is gen. . , ● . to circumcise the flesh of the foreskin of abrahams males of eight dayes old , is now in force to all persons in covenant , as well as it was then ) which neither hath nor can have any other sense ( taking words as they are used by other men ) but that still all in covenant with god , are bound by th● command , gen. . , . to circumcise their male children of eight dayes old ; which is to maintain that which the apostles have abro●●ted , act. . to intangle us with the yoak of bondage , which the apost●e saith , would make christ unprofitable to us , gal. . , , . but it will be said , he means not the command of circumcision , but the command of signing with the first sign or seal of the covenant . ans. if he means so , he rather juggles than disputes . for the words speak of the command , which is gen. . , . and that is no other than of circumcision ; no such command of signing infants of covenanters with the first signe or seal of the covenant in the old testament , besides that of circumcision , is either there or any where else that i know of ; if there be let it be shewed . but this is the manner of paedobaptists , in their disputes to imagine a command of sealing , as they call it , with the first seal , the infants of covenanters abstractively or distinctly from circumcision in the old testament , gen. . which is indeed a meer fiction , with which they mock their auditors and readers , who unwarily take what they say without examination . now this were an answer sufficient to this argument ; yet because this mans reasoning is so commended , let 's view his proofes . for proof of the major thus he writes . for when god giveth the reason of any command , that reason is the ground of the command ; and till that reason ceaseth , he is very bold with god , that dare exempt himself from the practice . and again , if the first proposition be denied , viz , where there is the same reason of a precept continued , there must be the same practice , then every man may set himself free from any command of god , and who can say unto him , what doest thou ? for the lord commands nothing without a reason , if there be no reason exprest , the reason of his will is implyed , which is as cogent and binding as all reasons in the world , till he makes it appear that it ceaseth . this is very clear . answ. the reason of a command may be understood , either of the reason why cod commands a thing , or the reason why we are bound to observe that command . the reason why god commands is various , sometimes one thing , sometimes another , sometimes expressed , sometimes concealed . and sometimes the same reason is given of very various commands , as i said before ( i am the lord your god ) is levit. . the promiscuous reason of moral and ceremonial and judicial commands ; yea that the very reason which pet. . , , . is given for the command to be obedient children , not fashioning themselves according to their lusts in their ignorance , but to be holy in all manner of conversation , is cit●d from levit. . , . and is the very reason why he forbids the israelits to eat certain meats , or to touch certain things unclean by the law. and therefore by master drew's reasoning ( the reason of the precept not ceasing ) we are bound still to the precept , levit. . of abstaining from meats unclean by the law , and from touching things legally defiling . but though there may be many motives to do it the rather , yet the onely formal adequate reciprocal reason why we are bound to observe any thing , is the command of our lord revealed to us . besides which , we are to look no further , nor are we to neglect it , till by some declaration of his will , it appears we are discharged . thus abraham was bound to offer his son isaac on the altar , because of gods command , without knowing any other reason ; yea though he had known the reason from the end to be fulfilled , yet he had not been discharged till god signified it by the angel , that he should not slay him . now then to master drews argument . i● he understand the reason of the precept in the first sense his major is false ; the reason why god gave a precept may continue , and yet the practice is not to continue , as levit. ▪ , . on the otherside the reason of a precept may not reach , and yet the precept reach ; as though god brought not us out of egypt , which is the reason of the command , deut. . , . yet the command pertains to us , and vers . . it is said , remember that thou wast a bondman in egypt , therefore the lord thy god commanded thee to keep the sabbath day . where i presume master drew will say the command reacheth us , though the reason of it do not . and as for his inference , that if it be denied , where there is the same reason of a precept there must be the same practice , then every man may set himself free from any command of god , it is true , if by the same reason of a precept , he understand the reason of a precept in the second sense , for the reason why we are bound to observe his precept , to wit , the declaration of gods will it should continue : but if he understand it in the first sense , for that reason which god gives , why he declared his will , and bound us to observe it , though it continue . yet the precepr may not be in force , nor on the other side doth the precept alwayes cease to binde , though that reason cease , as is proved before . now that reason of the precept gen. . , . which is vers . , , , , . is a reason of the first sort , and not of the latter . and indeed in more positive rites which are by institution the precept continues not in force , however rhe reason god used to inforce it , remaine , except the institution be continued . rightly pareus comm . in gen. . . to an objection , that sacrifices are to be continued , because the cause is perpetual , answereth , the perpetual cause of a thing necessarily co-hering with the thing , as a cause continued with its effect , makes the same perpetual . but the said causes or ends do not so co-here with the sacrifies of the ancients , but onely by appointment , that is divine ordination , which was that those sacrifices should be the confirmation of the faith of the fathers , and a signification of gratitude , unto the coming of the messiah , &c. the like may be said of the ends of circumcision , and the occasion of appointing it . but let us view master drew's proof of the minor , the reason ( saith he ) of the command for signing infants of believers under the law , with the first signe or seal of the covenant , was this promise , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , as is evident , gen. . , . compared with the . . and . verses , where this promise of god , and the application of the first seal are knit into a dependence one upon another : i will establish my covenant between me and thee , &c. to be a god unto thee and thy seed after thee ; therefore thou shalt circumcise every male , as a token of the covenant , vers . but this same reason of the command continues in force under the gospel ; god doth as truely say to every believing gentile now , i am thy god and the god of thy seed , as he did to abraham the father of believing gentiles , so he is called rom. . . therefore i may conclude , that believers under the gospel , have the same command for signing their infants with the first seal of the covenant of promise ( which now is baptism ) as abraham had to signe his under the law with the first signe , &c. which then was circumcision ; and now sirs , if the blessing of abraham be come upon you , and if you be heirs according to the promise , you may easily finde a command for baptizing your infant seed . answ. if master drew would prove what is to be proved , he should prove that the proper formal reason obliging to the duty of circumcision , gen. . , , . was the promise , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed after thee . but that is false . for the formal reason being put , the thing is put without any other thing , and it being not put , the thing is not put , though other things be put . but if the promise had been put , yet abraham had not been obliged to circumcise , unless a command were put , and the command being put , abraham was bound to circumcise , though god had made no promise . therefore , though the promise might be a motive to do it , yet as master mars●all truely confesseth , defence of his sermon pag. . the formal reason of the jews being circumcised was the command ; and therefore till master drew shew we have the same command to baptize infants , as abraham had to circumcise infants , he can never shew we have the same or equal reason for infant-baptism , as was for infant-circumcision . but master drew thinks to prove his minor from gen. . , . compared with the , , . vers . where it is evident ( saith he ) this promise of god , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , and the application of the first seal , are knit into a dependence one upon another . but he doth but dictate without any cleer explication , or thorough consideration of what he saith . for . he doth not plainly tell us , that the dependence he imagines to be one upon another of the application of the first seal and the promise , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , is upon that promise alone , and not upon the other promises , vers . , , , . and if he do so mean , yet he brings nothing to p●ove it , and it ●s unequal he should expect we should take it on his word , sith if we gather any thing from the placing of the words , the reason of the command , vers . , , , . may as well be from the promise of giving him and his seed the land o● canaan , vers . . as the promise , vers . . . whereas the promise vers . . hath diverse senses , one , so as to be meant of abraham as a natural father , and his seed according to the flesh , another , of abraham as a spiritual father , and his spiritual seed , he neither brings a word , nor do i think can , why the reason of the command , vers . , , , . should be from the promise made to abraham as a spiritual father , and to his spiritual seed ( which alone is for his purpose to bring gentile-believers children to be in the promise ) rather than to abraham as a natural father and to his natural seed , especially those of them that were to inherit the land of canaan : yea it is manifest , that if the dependence were , as he saith , it is to be interpreted of abrahams seed by nature , sith the command there was given to the natural seed of abraham only , and them that joyned to them . . nor doth mr. drew shew what dependence one upon another they are knit into , whether contingent or necessary , or if necessary , in what degree of necessity , whether , de omni per se or quatenus ipsum . this last seems to be most likely , and the dependence this , to whomsoever that promise is made , that person is to have the first seal ; and whosoever is to have the first seal , to that person the promise is made . but this were evidently false . for it appears from v. . that the promise was not made to ishmael , and yet he was to have the first seal , & others of abrahams house had not the promise who were to be signed with circumcision , and the females had the promise made to them , and yet were not to be signed . if it be said they were vertually signed , it serves not master drew's turn , who asserts a dependence of the promise and actual signing in the person federate . . nor doth he shew from what term or words his imagined dependence is evident . the onely term i know , he or any other gathers the supposed dependence from , is vers . . ( therefore ) but in the hebrew it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which in the most usual sense is , and thou , noting a further addition to his speech , not an illation of one thing from another . and so the tigurines read & tu , and thou , pareus tu autum , but thou , piscator , tu vero , thou verily . so that the evidence is very small , which is from so uncertain a light . . nor doth he nor can he shew from the comparing gen. . , . with , , . any dependence of application of any other first signe , than circumcision upon the promise there . the command of an indfinite first seal , there or elswhere to believers infants , is a meer figment . . that dependence which is implyed by the term ( therfore ) is not at all such as intimates a right competent to infants , but a duty enjoyned to parents , which infants are nor capable of . and therefore if any see a command for baptizing of infants in that place , it is but a parallax , or decep●io visus , a mistake of sight , as in him that thinks he sees two suns or two moons at once . the minor also in his argument is to be proved . sect . iv. the covenant , genesis . , , , , . was a mixt covenant . but afore ●e comes to prove it , he brings in an objection , gods covenant with abraham , was not a pure gospel-covenant , as appears , say they , by his promising abraham temporal things , gen. . . therefore we may not argue from thence to the covenant of grace . it is true , both in my exercitation , and in my examen , part . sect. . and else where , i deny the covenant made with ahraham , gen. . to be a pure gospel-covenant , and aver it to be mixt , and shew how it is mixt , to wit , of promises not belonging to every one with whom the new covenant of the gospel is made , but respecting peculiarly abrahams house , and the policy of israel , and that the promises evangelical are delivered , gen. . in words expressing proper benefits to abraham and his natural seed , though in the more inward sense of the holy ghost , evangelical promises were meant , and therefore it may be well doubted , whether that covenant may be termed simply evangelical : yea the scripture where it speaks of this covenant , often mentions no other promise , but of the land of canaan , as exod. . . psal. . , , , . chron. . , . act. . . where stephen mentions gods promise to abraham , he mentions that of the land of canaan ; and vers . . calls the promise of canaan , the covenant of circumsion . wherefore cameron in his thescs of the threefold covenant of god , thesi. . saith , that circumcision did primarily separate abrahams seed from other nations , sealed the earthly promise , it signified sanctification secondarily . whence i inferre , that when paedobaptists speak of circumcision as if it were a seal of the covenant of grace onely , and from it gather rules and conclusions concerning the ordinance of baptism , in the new testament , as if the reason of circumcising infants were from nothing proper to the policy or nation of israel , but onely out of the respect it had to the promise of evangelical grace , they do but mislead the people , and speak their own conceits , and not the language and minde of the scripture . to this master drew saith , i answer , the scripture no where calls that covenant a mixt covenant , but on the contrary , notwithstanding any civil promises of temporal things , it is held forth as pure a covenant of grace as may be ; the apostle tells us plainly that this covenant was confirmed of god in christ , gal. . . which i think is enough to make it a pure gospel-covenant . christ was never the testator of any covenant , but that of grace : outward things as appurtenances altered not the covenant , nor made it mixt at all , unless that covenant we live under be mixt too , for outward things are promised to believers under the gospel , rom. . . cor. . , . tim. . . besides , this covenant with abraham is called a covenant of justification , rom. . , . of grace , vers . . of faith , vers . . and i am perswaded , that abraham had not been called the father of the faithful , if believers had stood in a different covenant towards god , with that in which he stood ; as for differences in the manner of administring and dispensing that covenant , they matter nothing , if there be no difference in those evangelical promises , which make it a covenant of grace ; but no man is able to make this appear ; therefore this exception weakens not our proposition , nor the argument at all . i reply , if it be true which i allege , that the covenant , gen. . , , , , , was a mixt covenant , as i shew in the places forecited , and that circumcision injoyned , vers . , , , . had reference as a signe or token not onely to that promise ( i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed ) but also to the promises which peculiarly respect the house of abraham , and policy of israel , which cannot be understood to belong to every believer , as vers . . to be the father of many nations , to be exceeding fruitful , that god would make nations of him , and kings should come out of him ; that he would give unto him and his seed after him the land wherein he was a stranger , all the land of canaan for an everlasting possession ; then it follows , that the reason of the command , vers . , , , . is not onely from the promise vers . . but those other promises , and the application of the first seal are knit into a dependence one upon another , as well as that vers . . and then if the argument be good , the infants of those to whom the promise is , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , are to have the first seal , because of the dependence there , it will follow , he to whom god gives the land of canaan for a possession , he out of whom god brings nations and kings , he is likewise to be sealed with the first seal , sith there is as much dependence in the text , of circumcision on the promises vers . , , , . as on the promise vers . . so that if this reasoning of master drew's be good ; for my part i see not but that the turk , possessour now of canaan , may be intitled to baptism by the same reason he produceth for infant-baptism of believers children . now whereas he saith , that the scripture no where calls that covenant mixt , i grant it , and it is true also , that it no where calls it a pure gospel-covenant , nor circumcision a seal of the covenant of grace , or the first seal ; yet , the thing i mean by it being proved out of those texts forenamed , there is no reason to except against the expression . nor can it be true , that the covenant gen. . , , , , . is held forth as pure a covenant of grace as may be , if the promises are of sundry things not assured to believers in the covenant of the new testament . which is most evident : for no believer hath now a promise of the possession of the land of canaan , but rather an assurance of persecution , no promise of such greatness , as to be the progenitor of kings and nations , but rather of obscurity and debasement . a pure gospel covenant containing many promises , is rare in the old testament , except where he foretells us he would make a new covenant . god made a covenant with david , psal. . , &c. nor do i deny it was a gospel-covenant , yet therein are promises peculiar to his house , as vers . , , , . yea the promises which were evangelical in the furthest intent and aim , were domestical in the first place , and the most open expressions . nor is it a whit against the mixture of abrahams covenant which i avouch , that the apostle tells us plainly that this covenant was confirmed of god in christ , gal. . . and that christ was never the testator of any covenant but that of grace . for the word is in greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rendered in christum by the tigurines , into or unto christ , or as master dickson renders it , respectu christi , in respect of christ , that is , as in his paraphrase , with relation to christ , or as diodati , whose foundation was christ , not as the testator , but as the party concerning whom the testament was made , or as the executor by whom the things promised were performed . now in either of these senses it is easie to conceive how the pro●ise might be in christ , or unto christ , and yet the covenant not a pure gospel-covenant . he might be either a legatee , or an executor in that testament which contained not onely evangelical blessings of justification , &c. which were common to all true believers , but also outward blessings , which few or no believers had in the new testament . i see not any inconvenience in it to say that the testament was confirmed in christ , in respect of the promises , so far as they were evangelical , and yet to say there were promises in the same which were not such , nor they 〈◊〉 in christ , though in the same covenant . and whereas he calls outward things appertenances , i conceive the promises of outward things , gen. . , , , . are as truely parts of the covenant as the promise , vers . . yea in the p●●ces foretold , the promise of canaan hath the title of the covenant . and those promises , though they alter not the covenant , yet they must needs make a mixture in the covenant , for by reason of them the covenant contains promises of diverse sorts . and for that which is said , that now under the gospel , outward things are promised to believers : i grant it , yet it is nothing against the mixture in the covenant , gen. . which i assert : for those promises are not the p●omise of canaan , to be progenitor of kings , which are not made to every believer , but of a different sort . whence i infer , that there was a mixture in the covenant , gen. . which is not in the new testament , and the reference of circumcision to that covenant , might be and was in respect of those domestick promises , as well or more then of the gospel promises as such . nor do i finde rom. . , , . any mention of the covenant , gen , . much less is it there , which master drew saith , that it is called the covenant of justification and of grace . it is true abraham is there said to be justified by grace , yet no mention of the covenant , and the text there cited , is gen. . . not gen. . and though rom. . . it be said , the promise to abraham and his seed , that he should be heir of the world , was not by the law , but by the righteousness of saith ; yet it neither calls the covenant the covenant of faith ; nor doth it assert that the covenant , gen. . contained no other promise but what was evangelical or common to all believers of jews and gentiles . neither do i , nor need i say , that believers stood in a different covenant towards god with that in which abraham stood . i am perswaded as mr. drew , that believers now are justified by the same covenant that abraham was justified by , to wit , that in abraham all nations of the earth should be blessed , gal. . . & rom. . . a father of many nations have i made thee . i onely say , that the covenant gen. . contained promises which were proper to the jews , together with the evangelical promises . and to make those promises no parts of the covenant , but onely the manner of administring and dispensing the covenant , because the holy ghost alludes to them as figures and types of spiritual things , is not right . for even the promise , vers . . was in the like manner typical , abrahams natural seed inheriting , shadowing the israel of god , true believers , and then by this reason the promise , i will be a god to thy seed , should be no part of the covenant , but belong to the manner of administring and dispensing the covenant . the like may be said of the rest of the promises , they all shadowed out spiritual benefits , and so there should be no parts of the covenant , and consequently no covenant at all , but a manner of administring and dispensing of i know not what covenant . but the speeches vers . , , , . do contain promises , as well as vers . . and either i am uncapable to understand the meaning of terms , or else promises are parts , yea substantial or essential , or integral parts of a covenant , the description of a covenant , being a collective of promises , and the scripture , what gal. . . is called a covenant or testament , calls vers . . promises . and therefore ro make the promises gen. . , , , . not to be parts , but appurtenances to the covenant , or the manner of administring and dispensing it , hath in my apprehension , neither truth nor congruous sense . now if they be part of the covenant , as hath been made appear , and circumcision had its appointment by reason of them , as well as the promise , vers . . it matters much to weaken master drew's proposition and argument , though there be no difference in those evangelical promises which make it a covenant of grace between abrahams covenant and ours . master drew proceeds . sect . v. acts . , . proves not either the identity of covenant now with that to abraham , gen. . . as it comprehends his natural seed , nor the connexion between it and baptizability . now to go on to the proof of our second proposition in the argument , which is , that the reason of the command for signing , &c. even this promise i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , continues in full force under the gospel , i refer you to that scripture acts . . to make it good . the promise is unto you and to your children . what promise ? why this must needs relate to a former engagement , yea and too made unto them to whom the apostle peter spake , viz. jews , and i know not to what engagement this can have reference , if not unto gods promise made to abraham , of being his god and the god of his seed after him . certainly he is one of those that are blinde , and yet have eyes , who sees not from this text , that this very promise is in force and appliable to believers under the gospel , and if this stand good , then the command for signing our infants with the first signe of the covenant of grace , viz. baptism , stands good too , for this promise is the reason which god gives of his precept ; god will own a believers children , therefore he will have them markt for his . answ. i grant the promise i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , doth still continue in force , god is still the god of abrahams seed , that is his spiritual seed , elect persons , and true believers ; and he will be again the god of abrahams natural seed when the natural branches or posterity of abraham , the root , shall be grafted in again . but i deny that which master drew means , and in the page before expressed , that god doth as truely say to every believing gentile now , i am thy god , and the god of thy seed , as he did to abraham the father of the faithful ; yea or that ever god meant by that promise to assure spiritual or evangelical blessings to all and every of abrahams natural posterity , the apostle determining and proving the contrary , rom. , , &c. and restraining that promise in the evangelical sense onely to the children of abraham , which were elect by god. nor is there a word , act. . . to make it good in master drew's sense . for , . master drew proves not that the promise act. . . must needs be the promise gen. . . i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed . his argument is , it must needs relate to a former engagement to the jews , and therefore to that gen. . . but this is to argue a genere ad speciem affirmative , it relats to a former engagement therfore to this , which logicians deny to be good proof . but saith he , i know not what engagement this can have reference to , if not unto the promise gen. . . i answer , though he know not , and so may be one of those , that are blind and yet have eyes , ( which he chargeth on his opposits ) yet others see other promises , namely that to david of raising up christ to sit on his throne mentioned acts . . or the promise of the holy gost mentioned v. . or the promise of blessing mentioned acts . . any of which may be the promise meant acts . . more probably then that gen. . . . where it is said ( the promise is to you ) if we either consider the scope of the apostle or other parrallel texts acts . . acts . , . ( the promise is ) is as much as to say , the promise made to david acts . . or to abarham acts . . is fulfilled in raising up christ , or the promise of the spirit is fulfilled in the shedding forth of its gifts , ( of which promise mentioned v. . . piscator and others understand it ) and that for you , that is for your good blessing , and your children and all that are afarr off as many as the lord our god shall call , not as m. drew means , there is a promise of being a god to you and every one of your children continually to be fulfilled as soon as ever they are in being . . it is false which m. drew presupposeth as if the meaning were ( the promise is to you ) that is ( the promise of being your god is to you believers and to your children ) that is to all your infant children , as children of believers whether jews or gentiles . for . that speech is made to the jews ( as m. drews own words seem to import ( onely and their children , and not to gentiles and their children . it is false that when it is said ( the promise is to you ) the meaning is to you as believers . for neither were they then believers , as i prove in my ample disquisit : sect . nor is it certain whether some of them were ever believers , the occasion and scope seems to intimate rather that they were considered there as persons who had crucified christ . neither is it true that the promise is to their children , that is to their infant children as their children , m. gataker discept : de bapt : infant : vi . & 〈◊〉 . pag. . saith thus , to the obtaining the promise as well repentance as partaking of baptism at least in this place is exacted ; so that hence the promise of remission of sins cannot be proved to be made to infants when they are entered by baptism , unless also they repent . nor do i know how it can be true , which m. drew sayes , in any sense for his purpose , that god hath promised to every believing gentile now to be the god of his seed as he did to abraham , by which he would expound the words acts . . the promise is to your children . for in respect of spiritual blessings accompanying salvation it is not true , every believers child is not elect , in the covenant of saving grace , a child of the resurrection , nor in respect of outward ecclesiastical privileges . neither did god promise circumcision to every child of abraham , not to the males under . dayes old nor to the females , nor hath it any colour to interpret i will be the god of thy seed , that is they shall be circumcised , much less that god promised to every gentile believers child he should be baptized or have right to baptism , sure not to professed unbelievers , to abortives or still born infants . for my part with all m. drews light i cannot understand how according to m. drews exposition the promise gen. . . is inforce and applyable to believers under the gospel as he saith . nor do i conceive it true which he ads . if this stand good then the command for signing our infants with the first sign of the covenant of grace viz. baptism stands good to ; for were it granted that it were true , that god doth as truly say to every believing gentile now , i am thy god and the god of thy seed as he did to abraham the father of believing gentiles , yet there is not a word in that text or any other to prove that therefore every believers infant child is to be baptized , it being false that the covenant of grace doth of it selfe intitle to baptism as i have proved in my examen part . . s. . in my letter to m. baile or additions to my appology sect. . in the ample disquisition sect. . where also it is proved that though the promise acts . . be alleged why they should be baptized v. . yet not as the reason of their right to baptism as m. drew makes it , but as a motive encouraging them to it as their duty , and in performing of it first to move then to repent and then to be baptized . the reason , is not as m. drew makes it . the promise is to you and and your children therefore it is their and your right to be baptized , and the minister ought to do it to you and your infants ; but this , the promise is to you and your children , therefore you and they ought and may be encouraged to repent and be baptized in the name of the lord jesus for remission of sins : nor is there a word in the text or elsewhere to prove that dictate of m. drew , god will own believers children , therefore he will have them markt for his , even in infancy by baptism , more truely saith m. gataker discept : infant . de bapt ▪ infant . vi . & e●f●c . pag. . acts . , . is nothing found concerning infants to be baptized , in that they are commanded to repent and to be baptized unto the remission of sins , it is altogether like to that saying of the lord christ , he that believeth and shall be baptized shall attain salvation matth. . . but m. drew thinks to take off the exceptions that are laid against the witness which this place brings to prove the birth priviledge of believers children under the gospel . the first exception is that the promise is of extraordinary gifts of the spirit , and he answers . this doth not sute with the promise made gen. . : which was to be performed to abrahams children , and yet they had not those gifts . but . this answer goes upon his mistake that the promise acts . . must be that gen. . . . he supposeth that the promise acts . . must be understood so as to be made good to abrahams seed afore christ : but if so , it were false in his sense , for all abrahams seed had not the birth priviledge of the first seale not the females any of them , nor any of the males till the eight day . . he saith , it cannot be true of extrao●dinary gifts , sith then all believing jews must have those gifts , which they had not , and all believers might pray for them . to which i say if the promise be so understood , you shall all have sueh gifts . i acknowledg it were not true exam. part . . sect . but in this sense it may be true even of those gifts , the promise of sending the spirit in extraordinary gifts is fulfilled to you and your children and all that are afarr off even as many as the lord our god shall call , that is for their and your benefit , in that by those gifts the apostles were inabled to publish and propagate the gospel , which is a benefit to all that are called . the second exception is that the words ( as many as the lord our god shall call ) expound the apostle meaning , which is this , their children should receive the promise if the lord called them , to it he answers . that this particle ( even ) with that which follows ( whom the lord our god shall call ) has relation to the next foregoing sentence viz. those that are afarr off for the explanation of that not unto this sentence ( to you and your children ) so that the apostle speaks thus , the promise is made to you and your children for the present , and when the lord shall call those that are a far off and strangers to the covenant of promise , they and their children shall be heirs to the promise as well as you and your children are now . to which i reply , m. drew gives no reason , why the limitation should be ment onely of those afar off , and not also of them and their children . nor doth he answer the reason given to the contrary , that the speech were not true , if it be so expounded as that the sense be , that god would be a god to those jews he then spake to , though they were not called to the knowledge and belief of christ , and so salvation by another then christ contrary to the same apostles words acts . to me saith m. gataker discept . debapt . inf. viz. and e●fic . pag. . the covenant of grace act· . . seems onely to be with them that have embraced the gospel . now if the words ( as many as the lord our god shall call ) must limit the words ( to you and all that are afar off ) it is incongruous to the use of speaking not to apply it to ( your children ) in the middle . yea without the limitation it would not be true that god hath promised to be a god to their or any others children . for god is not a god to any but those he calls either outwardly or inwardly at least . . his paraphrase ( when the lord our god shall call those that are afar off , they and their children shall be heirs to the promise as well as your children are now ) is an intolerable abuse of adding that of which there is not a word in the text , which doth not mention at all the children of them that are afar off though called . . saith m. drew if the appostle had meant to apply the promise onely to those who should be called of god to believe , then it had been needless to have made any mention at all of children . to which i reply there was great reason why he should mention their children with them , because they had wished matth. . . christs blood on them and their children . to take away the horrour of soule , and fear of the curse on them and their children caused by the conscience of their crucifying christ and imprecation to them and their children , and not to assure them of such a poor empty eclesiastical outward priviledge as paedobaptists imagine to belong to believers infants , was that speech of the apostle intended in like fort as joseph did in the like gen. . , . &c. gen. . . for this end was sutable to the occasion of their question ver. . . and to the apostles answer , and it seems probable tthe apostle saith ( to you and your children ) but not , to all that are afar off and their children , because those afar off had not wished christs blood on them and theirs as the other had done . . saith m. drew , it utterly overthrows the apostles scope which is to shew the jews shall be bettered rather then worsted by believing in christ , which they would hardly believe should he have left their children ( who were alwayes till now reckoned in covenant with them ) in as poor a condition as the most barbarous heathens in the world , which had been a bad argument to bring in the jews , cold comfort to hear that their children should be made as much aliens to the common-wealth of israel by their fathes embracing the gospel , as the very pagans . surely this would stave off the jews from christ rather then bring them on . to which i reply , the apostles scope is plain to direct them what to do being oppressed with the horrour of their sin in crucifying christ and wishing his blood on them and their children , and ver. . is a notice to them to repent and be baptized in the name of christ. to imagine the jews then either thought of a priviledge for their children answerable to circumcision , or that peters scope was to satisfy them about it , is such a toy as is fit for children rather then men of understanding . it had been alike comfort unto the jews at that time to tell them of their infants right to baptism as for a man to tell an arraigned malefactor , expecting to be condemned and hanged , that his little child had a new coat given him , vain words and bug-bears fit to affright children with , of a childs being out of the covenant for defect of tittle to baptism , of being in worse case then the jews , in as poor a condition as the most barbarous heathens in the world , aliens to the common-wealth of israel , debarred a priviledge the deprivation of which would have staved off the jews from christ. children may be in covenant as much as the jews , no whit worsted in their condition in a better condition , then barbarious heathen infidels , though title to baptism be not aserted to their infants . if by ( the commonwealth of israel ) the jewish civil or eclesiastical estate , be understood those that peter spake to , must expect to be alienated from it if they would be christians . they knew christ was cast out , and might know he had told them it would be so with his disciples . if by ( the common-wealth of israel ) be meant ( the true christian church ) the defect of infant-baptism neither expressly nor by consequence made them aliens from the common-wealth of israel . such conceits arise from paedobaptists mistaken suppositions . nor can i imagine but that had the jews understood that their children were in that condition , worsted for want of a priviledge equal to their circumcision they would have been glad to accept of christ to take away that horrour that then lay on their spirits . the third exception is , that it is not said the promise is to the gentiles and their children ; now if this be not made good the argument fals , because we are gentiles by nature . to which he answers . if believing gentils live under the same covenant that abraham and his seed did ( which has been proved ) then though they were none of his seed , t is safer to apply the whole promise to them , i am thy god and the god of thy seed , then to cut off and circumcise the tenor of the covenant , and to say unto believers now , god onely is your god , not the god of your children ; is not this to make a main and substantial alteration in the covenant ? and to rob believers of one of the most precious comforts they have by promise , even gods owning their seed . which they cannot be assured of as the jews were , without the children be admitted to the first sign or seal of the covenant , which is baptism now under the gospel , as i shall prove by its succeeding circumcision by and by . to which i reply , the covenant gen. . , , , , . is mixt and in respect of the temporal promises believing gentiles live not under the covenant made to abraham gen. . . but in respect of the spiritual part , that is , they are justified and saved now , or god is a god to them as they are abrahams seed gal. . . but neither did god promise to be a god in respect of gospel grace , to abrahams natural seed as such , the contrary is delivered rom. . , . nor now to any believers seed as such , but the elect whether believers or unbelievers children , as is proved at large by me exam. part . . sect. . not by denying the covenant of grace to be made with a believer & his natural seed do we cut off or circumcise the tenor of the covenant , or make any alteration , much less a main and substantial alteration in the covenant , the apostle expressly determining , and whole juries of the ablest protestant writers even paedobaptists expounding rom. . . as resolving , that the covenant gen. . . to be a god to abraham and his seed , was not made to all abrahams natural seed , no not to the circumcised , not to ishmael and esau , but to the elect onely , and therefore there is no safety to apply the whole promise , i am thy god and the god of thy seed , to every sincere believer and his child , it being expressly contradictory to rom. . . which determines some onely to be children of the promise . and yet we need not say as m. drew injuriously makes us say , god onely is your god , not the god of your children , but onely this : you may assure your selves that he is your god , for ye are believers and so abrahams seed ; and ye may hope by reason of general indefinite promises and frequent experiences that god will be a god to your children . but god hath not promised that he will be certainly a god to every , or any one of your children definitely , but is at liberty to shew mercy to your children , or to an infidels , as it shall please him . and this you must be contented with , sith god afforded no more to abraham himself , when he had made isaac the child of the promise and not ishmael , nor to isaac when he loved iacob and hated esau. it is fit you should remember god to be no debtor to you , that he is the potter , ye and yours are the clay , and accordingly acquiess in his will blessing him for his love to you which is the most precious comfort you have by promise , and not being anxious concerning your children . nor is there any truth in it that either the jews were assured that god would own their seed , that is , be their god , nor that by being admitted to circumcision they had that assurance , nor that without admission to baptism we cannot be assured of our children that god owns them , nor that baptism succeeds circumcision , or if it did , such assurance as mr. drew speaks of cannot be inferred thence . so that all this passage is but a fardel of mistakes . le ts consider the next . . saith m. drew , are not gentiles the seed of abraham ? then i would fain be resolved in this whether christ took upon him onely the nature of the jews , or of the jews and gentiles both ? if only of jews , how must the gentiles be saved ? if of both , then how you will construe this text heb. . . he took upon him the seed of abraham , if you will not allow the gentiles by any means to be abrahams seed . answer . i grant believing gentils are abrahams spiritual seed descending from him as the father of the faithfull by imitating his faith . and as for m. drews frivolus or captious question , which goes upon a supposition as if christ might take on him the nature of the jews only , & that the nature of the jews were one and the gentils another , i tell him ( though i think such a dr. might have resolved himself ) for his resolution that christ took on him the nature of both , that is the same specifical essence or kinde of being , that both had , to wit the being of a man common a like to jews and gentiles , meaning by nature his individual , and numerical existence , which is all one with that , our lord sprang out of judah heb. . . not from levi , or from lot , and yet the gentils are saved by his name , he dying and arising again both for jews and gentils . and for the construction of heb. . . thought there are learned men that expound 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thus , he takes hold or helpeth the seed of abraham , that is believers of gentils as well as jews , yet i think the meaning there to be no more but this , that he took on him or received the nature of man by a natural descent from abraham . because the seed of abraham is opposed to angels , and therefore abrahams seed signifies the nature of man contradistinct to angels . . because the author saith ver . . thence he ought to be like to his brethren , to be a mercifull high priest , which comes not from his helping believers , but his assumption of the humane nature , whith fits him to be like to men and to be a mercifull high priest. and therefore i like best the reading of our transtators in the text , not that in margin . and thus haye i answered m. drews douty question in which he would so fain be resolved . but what is this to prove that acts . . the promise is not yet to the gentils , that are called but also to their children i see not , it being neither proved that acts . . the promise is the promise gen. . . i will be a god to thee and thy seed , ot that the children of gentils called , are in that respect abrahams seed . m. drew adds , but yet further . t is plain in the gospel that faith maketh a believer the child of abraham ; yea and a surer heir to the promise , i will be thy god and the god of thy seed , then carnal descent from abrahams loyns doth . abraham had . seeds one descending from ishmael and onother from isaac ; all that came from abraham were not children rom. . . but in isaac shall thy seed be called . isaac was his special seed , and typed out his believing seed under the gospel , for ver . . they which are the children of the flesh , these are not ( that is not in so peculiar a manner ) the children of god as the believing seed , for the children of the promise are the seed , the seed by way of eminencie , that is the prime seed . and mark i pray you how the same apostle explaines and applyes this to our purpose gal. . , . the galatians were gentils , but being believers , we saith the apostle , as isaac was , are the children of promise , and so the special seed of abraham : the galatians were no more of abrahams natural seed then we are , but by faith they became his prime seed , and heirs apparent to all the promises as isaac was , who is said in the next ver . to be born after the spirit as well as gospel believers are . and , sirs , shall we make the covenant curtail and narrow to abrahams prime seed and halve the promises to them when they are full and large to his worser seed ? the appostle will not suffer this gal. . . if ye be christs then are ye abrahams seed , and heirs according to the promise , which surely must needs be according to the full extent of that promise made unto our father abraham ; for if it be not ours so fully as it was his , then we are not heirs according to the promise ; if our seed be exempted it fals much short of what was said to him , i will be thy god and the god of thy seed . and mark , friends , i beseech you , that was gospel which was preached to abraham gal. . . in thee shall all nations be blessed ; not onely his natural seed , that was but one nation ; but all that were of the faith shall be blessed , as children of what nation soever ver . . for faith was imputed to abraham in uncircumcision rom. . , . to this end that he might be the father of all them that believe though not circumcised . and truely i wonder since the g●spel is so clear that believers are abrahams children that any man dare rob them of any comfort or priviledge wherewithall he was invested by that promise to which they are more sure heirs then any of his natural seed , as i think is made plain to the easiest of your capacities . answer . the thing to be proved is that to the natural seed of gentile believers god hath promised to be a god. to prove which divers places are brought which do manifestly refute it . that of ro. . , . determines that all the natural children of abraham were not the seed to whom god had promised to be god , but that in isaac his seed should be called . and the same is determined gal. . . that isaac was the child of the promise and not the son of the bondwoman , and that no child of any man is a child of the promise but he that is born after the spirit . and gal. . . is meant of those onely that are the sons of god by faith in christ ver . . and from the gospel mentioned gal. . . in thee shall all nations be blessed , he infers ver . . onely of believers , so then they that are of faith are blessed with faithfull abraham . and rom. . . . abraham is said to be the father of believers , or as it is ver . . those that walk in the steps of the faith of our father abraham which he had yet being uncircumcised . wherefore i may much more justly wonder that learned protestants who so commonly say , that elect persons onely are in the covenant of grace from rom. . , . when they dispute against arminians , should yet have the face to avouch that every believers yea though but by profession a believers natural child whether elect or a believer or not , is in the covenant of grace made to abraham gen. . . when they dispute for paedobaptism , though by such doctrine they make the word of god to fall , it being not true of ishmael , esau , and thousands of others of both of abrahams and other believers seed , god hath not nor will be a god to them . t is true believing gentils are heirs of the promise made to abraham of blessing or justification by faith as he had , but it is false , every believer is heir of every priviledg . abraham had ; none besides him is father of the faithfull as abraham , or hath gods promise to his natural seed as abraham had to his spiritual , yea or to his natural . none hath the promise that in his seed all nations of the earth should be blessed acts . . nor any that his posterity should be graffed in again as it is assured to abrahams seed rom. . , . the imagined priviledge that god would be the god of his naturall seed was never promised to abrahams natural posterity , as such . yet it is false , that a believers child is a more sure heir of the promise then any of abrahams natural seed . for though god hath not promised to be a god to all abrahams posterity , yet he hath to some , which i know not that he hath done to any believing gentils natural child . m. d. doth but calumniate by insinuating as if we curtaild the promise , robbed believing parents of any comfort or privilege wherewith abraham was invested by that promise gen. . . perverting the text as if when god said he would be a god to abraham , by abraham were meant every believer , and when he saith he will be a god to abrahams seed , it were meant of every belivers natural seed whether believers or not . about which he and other paedobaptists , particularly the assembly at westminster in the directory about baptism do but abuse people , and lead fond parents , who swallow down preachers sayings without scripture proof into a fools paradise , by telling them that the promise is made to a believer and his seed , that god will be a god to a believer , and his child , and that infants of believers dying in their infancy , are saved by the parents faith , and by this there is assurance of their salvation . but master drew once more urgheth rom. , . that the term graffing , shews believing gentils come in with their seed , or twigs that grow from them , else surely they cannot be said to be graffed in as the jews were cut off , but i have so fully proved the ingraffing to be by giving faith according to election , and that none but elect persons are ingraffed according to the apostles meaning , and that ingraffing is into the invisible church in my ample disquisition , being the first part of this review in the ten first sections , that i think it unnecessary to say any more to what master drew here speaks . and for what he saith , if believers infants were taken in under the legal administration , and left out in the gospel-administration , the covenant dispensation under the gospel is more uncomfortable th●n that under the law , it is but a vain speech , as if the circumcision of infants were such a matter of comfort , that the having of no priveledge under the gospel did recompense the loss of it without infant-baptism , as if infant-baptism were of so great comfort to parents , that without it other comfort concerning their children were nullified , whereas these things arise upon mistakes , as if baptism were administred according to a persons interest in the covenant , and circumcision was so , and that the denying infants baptism , is putting them out of covenant , which is but ungrounded talk , as shall be further shewed in that which follows . yea when the paedobaptists answer the papists , who would have the work of outward baptism to take away original sin from the infant-baptized , they say onely that it seals the covenant , but doth not seal the fruit of the covenant , but upon condition of faith and repentance ; so that the infant hath no benefit by the covenant , or the seal without faith or election ; and so much benefit hath any unbeliever or his infant ; yea the unbeliever hath more advantage then the infant , for the unbeliever hath the moral use of the sealing of any baptized person , which the infant hath not . when they talk of the covenant to infants of believers they say it is but condicionally that they do believe that god will be their god , and in the same manner the covenant belongs to all men in the world , to unbelievers and their infants , and when they speak of the benefit of baptism , they say it onely seals the covenant , not the persons partaking the fruit of it ( excepting he be an elect person dying in infancy ) which yet he may have without the seal ) till he believe , yet he hath not the moral use and comfort of it till he understand and believe , at which time the baptism in infancy is altogether unknown to him . so that indeed the comfort which paedobaptists give to parents , is either the same i give , without infant-baptism , or , if parents did examin it , it would be found delusory . what master drew speaks about baptisms succession to circumsion , and his imagined full proof from thence for infant-baptism , i shall put off till i review the dispute about master ms. third concl. this is enough to satisfie that master drew's reasons are blunt and not sharp as was supposed . sect . vi. the arguments of master josias church in his divine warrant for infant-baptism , from their being judged in the promise , is answered . there is another writing of master josiah church , intituled , the divine warrant of infant-baptism , of which i passed a censure in the first part of this review sect. . and i might let it pass , being as the commanders of it say , dogmatical rather then polemical , and leave it to those that affect such superficial writings . yet because master roberts and master geree have commended it , and master baxter pag. . of his plain scripture proof , puts it among the chief books , of which he saith , if any of the men of bewdly have taken up the union of antipaedobaptism , and have not read and studied him with others , and been able to confute them , he hath discovered a seared conscience ( which is a most unreasonable and uncharitable censure ) to shew the folly and vanity of master baxters and others conceit , i shall give the reader some taste of his overly handling the point . his first argument is thus , the infants of christians are righty judged in the promise of propriety in god , therefore they may be baptized . to it i answer , . the antecedent is ambiguous , not expressing what propriety in god he means , whether of justification , regeneration , and salvation , or of outward protection & prosperity among men or ecclesiastical privilege , nor where that promise is which he calls promise of propriety in god , nor whether he means it of all infants of christians , or some , and if of some of which he means it , and of which not ; nor of what sort of christians , whether such as are christians onely by profession , or really such in gods account ; nor with what judgement he means , whether of charity or verity , probably or certainty ; nor upon what evidence they are with any of these sorts of judgement rightly judged in the promise of propriety in god. so that i finde nothing but sophistry in this dispensation , the antecedent being perhaps true in some sense , in some false : and therefore it is but wast labour to refute it , or answer his proofs , till that he distinctly set down what he asserts , and how his proofs suite with his assertion . yet i shall cast away some animadversions on this writing , least my silence be disadvantage to the cause i maintain . that which i conceive he means , is this , all the infants of christians by visible profession , are rightly judged by a judgement of charity , though not of certainty to be included in the promise of propriety in god , in regard of eternal adoption and priviledge expressed in those words ▪ gen. . . i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , therefore they may be baptized . of which argument , i deny both the antecedent and the consequence . the antecedent he takes upon him to prove by ten arguments . . the infants of the jews ( so long as they continued visible professors ) were rightly judged to be in the promise of propriety in god , for it was sealed to them by the initial sacrament no less then to actual professors , gen. . , . ergo answ. did not master church affect new phrasifying , which serves onely to puzzle in plain words , he had said , to the jews infants· the promise was made of being god to them , therefore the infants of christians are rightly to be in that promise : of which , neither is the antecedent true universally taken , but contradicted by paul , rom. . , . where he expresly denies the promise ( i will be the god of thy seed ) to be true of abrahams natural seed universally taken : nor if it had been true , doth it follow that what was promised to abrahams seed , is true of every true believers , muchless of the seed of every meer visible professor of christian faith , who are neithet themselves , nor their children in any scripture sense abrahams seed : nor is the proof of any weight , that the promise of propriety in god was sealed to the jews infants by the initial sacrament , no less then to actual professors , therefore the jews infant were rightly judged to be in the promise of propriety in god. for this reason in plain terms is no more then this , the jews infants were to be circumcised , ergo they were rightly judged to be in the promise of propriety in god , that is that god would be their god , which rests upon these false suppositions , that god had promised to be god to those whom he commanded to be circumcised , and that the promise of being their god was the formal reason of their being circumcised , that when god promised to be a god of to gentiles , he meant it of external adoption and priviledges . the consequence he would prove by four argument . . the promise of propriety in god was not a specialty , therefore the infaints of christians being certainly no less in the promise then were the infants of jews aforetime , they are rightly judged to be in it as they were . where the conclusion is altered , which was to be proved ( therefore if the infants of the jews were rightly judged to be in the promise of propriety in god , then the infants of christians are rightly judged to be in that promise ) and instead thereof , that which should have been the antecedent ( the infants of christians are certainly no less in the promise then were the jews infants aforetime ) is made the chief part of the conclusion , and in stead of the right antecedent , this ambiguous antecedent is put ( that promise of proriety in god was not a specialty ) which he says he would prove by seven arguments , but sets not down which branch of the promise was not a specialty , whether that ( i will be thy god ) or that ( i will be the god of thy seed ) nor in what sense it was not a specialty , nor doth his speech ( that it was not a specialty ) appear equipollent to that he should have proved ( the infants of christians are certainly no less in the promise then were the jews dnfants aforetime ) but he dictates so ambiguously and indistinctly , that more labour will be necessary to understand him then to refute him . he tells us , the promise of propriety in god , was not peculiar to abraham , and visible professors , and abrahams natural seed ; where he supposeth , that the promise ( i will he thy god , and the god of thy seed ) was true of meer visible professors , and abrahams natural seed ; which is most false and contrary to rom. . , , . luk. . , , . he brings the words exod. . , the stranger was as our home-born , and there was one law for both ( which are spoken meerly of allowance for them to eat the passeover with them ) to prove a like propriety of the infants of visible professors of the gentiles in the promise of propriety in god , gen. . . he brings gal. . . which was spoken onely of true believers born after the spirit , to prove visible professors and their infants to be judged in the promise of propriety in god. he saith , isaac was in the promise as an infant of believing parent , whereas paul saith no , for then ishmael and esau had been in the promise , but by special calling or election , rom. . , , , . he applies those texts gal. . . rom. . . rom. . , . gen. ▪ , . to prove a promise to every gentile visible professour of faith and their infants , which are onely verified in the sense the apostle useth them , of true believers as abraham was , who are justified as he was . he allegeth that which the apostle rom. . . saith , the children are beloved for the fathers , as it were meant of infants of every gentile visible professor , which is spoken onely of the elect israelites , and the ancient patriarchs abraham , &c. that which is said , psal. . , . of children of him that fears god , sitting round about his table like olive plants ▪ to prove visible professors and their partaking in the promise of propriety in god. he saith , the former part of that promise ( i will be a god to thee , gen. . . is undeniably common to all believers , which in truth is undeniably proper t abraham , not simply as a believer , but either as a natural father , or father o believers according to the spiritual part of the promise . he saith , christians are in this dispensation as jews were in the former , they are called as they were , an holy nation , a peculiar people , a royal priesthood , pet. . tit , . . and every nation receiving the faith as the nation of the jews did , and in which there is a national agreement in doctrine , worship , and discipline , as was in the nation of the jews , is to be accounted to the lord in every age , psal. . . even egypt and assyria with israel , isa. . . and many call abraham father ( who obtained the fatherhood of many nations , gen. . . ) and may be accounted a national church no less hen that nation was , whereby those speeches pet. . . t it . . gen. . . as expounded , rom. . . which are meant onely of the elect and true believers of every nation are applied to a national church like the jews consisting of a great part of either ignorant persons that know little or nothing of christianity , or persecutors of godliness , profanely despising the word , and hating the godly . he applies that mat. . . little ones , who are said vers . . to believe in christ , and the offending of whom hath so great a penalty , to little one in age . he applies jer. . . which is spoken of the jews upon their return from captivity , as appears vers . . . concerning their prosperity in canaan to the restitution of their infants to an initial seal at the calling of them to the christian faith whereas if it were so meant , the prophet should foretell that the jews children at their calling to christ should be as a foretime , that is , should be circumcised as they were before the prophets time , not ba●tized . more things there are liable to exception in his arguments whereof what pertains to the text , act. . . rom. . . . cor. . . is sufficiently discussed in ●y ample dsquisition of those texts . that which concerns the reasons that god promiseth mercy to thousands , and such like arguments , being urged more fully by master b. i shall answer when i meet with them in his book . his arguments pag. . to prove his consequence , the infants of chaistians are rightly judged in the promise of propriety in god , therefore they are to be baptized , are insufficient . the first is from circumcision of infants , to which hath been often answered , that was done by vertue of the command , not by vertue of the promise and therefore without the like command the like promise ( if it were granted ) would not prove the like , practice . what is said of john baptists , and the apostles , not denying baptism to any whom they judged to be in the promise , seems to intimate , that they baptized men because they judged them to be in the promise : but there is not a word thereof in any of the evangelists , but their comming to john confessing their sins , glorifying god in embracing his counsel , professing faith , as the reason of their admission to baptism . to his second reason , being in the promise , is the reason rendered by the apostles for the receiving of baptism , acts . , . therefore they that are rightly judged in it may be baptized , i answer . he says not truely , that being in the promise is the onely reason mentioned by the apostle for baptism ; for repentance is put as a prerequisite . . the apostle doth not speak of the promise as master church means that he judged that they and their children were rightly judged as visible professors in the promise of propriety in god , for they were not then such : but that the promise of raising up christ was fulfilled for them upon their repentance and baptism , or their calling , and this is made not the reason of right to receive , or warrant to the minister to baptize them , but as a motive to their duty of repenting and being baptized , and encouragement to hope for remission notwithstanding their crucifying christ and imprecation on themselvs , and theirs , matth. . . sect . vii . bare judgement of charity concerning a persons interest in the promise is not a warrant to baptize . pag. . mr. church brings in an objection thus , the judgement of charity that any are in promise is not a sufficient reason for administring baptism to them : there must be shews of grace for more certainty , to which he thus answers : shews of grace and actual profession are a reason for baptizing only as they are ground for the judgment of charity , that the parties to be baptized are in the promise ; for else if the devil should take a humane shape , and make a verbal profession ( though he were known to be a devil ) he must be baptized . i reply , mr. church here starts a question , by what judgment a minister is to proceed in admitting a person to baptism . concerning which i suppose it will not be denied . . that a minister being but as an officer under christ in baptizing , is to baptize according to his lords will. for that is the property of a servant . . that the will of the lord is most manifest in the institution or appointment of christ ; which is without question declared by the words of christ , matth. . . mark. . , . explained by the apostles and other approved ministers thereof , command and practice mentioned in the acts of the apostles . . that true believers and disciples of christ are appointed to be baptized , and that they have true right before god. . that such believers and disciples as are appointed to be baptized , are disciples of all nations , not of angelical but humane nature ; and therefore we have no warrant to baptize either good angels or devils taking humane shape and making shews of repentance or faith if known to be divils or angels . all the difference is , with what judgment and upon what evidence a minister is to baptize , i conceive . upon extraordinary revelation from god a minister is to baptize an infant declared to be a disciple , as i say in my examen p. . s. . . according to ordinary rule he ought to baptize none but disciples by profession , which profession ought to be free , sober , serious and intelligent . for discerning of which he is to use ministerial prudence , though he be not able to search the heart , and after the use of ministeral prudence therein , he is prudently to judge of the truth of his faith and discipleship . wherein he ought to judge according to the rule of charity cor. . . which believeth all things , hopeth all things , and yet heed what solomon saith prov. . . the simple believeth every word : but the prudent man looketh well to his going . and our lord christ luke . . having said as it was conceived of a minister , who then is that faithfull and wise steward , whom his lord shall make ruler over his houshold , to give them their portion of meat in due season ? it is requisite that the judgment of a minister upon which he baptizeth should have both ingredients , prudents & charity , charity alone is not sufficient . for . if charity be used without prudence , there may be a mockery of the ordinance , and it profaned . . if the rule be a judgment of charity alone , then supposing the minister be defective in his charity the person is to be debarred , who is otherwise fit to be baptized . but about this i conceive there is little or no difference between me and the paedobaptists . mr. m. in one place , to wit , in his defence pag. . intimates that i am conceived to incline to the looser way of baptizing any that would make a profession of faith in jesus christ. and in another place pag. . he maks it all my pleading that because we cannot know that all infants of believers have the inward grace , we may not therefore baptize them . from the former i vindicated my self in my apology sect. . and from the latter sect. . but the difference is what qualification it is that may be evidence to a minister , whereby to judge prudently a person to be capable of baptism . they that hold all infants are to be baptized that are offered , they make no scruple , nor do they make much scruple that hold all infants that are in a chosen nation , which i have refuted exam. part . . sect. . others baptize onely the children of inchurched members , of which i shall speake in examining mr. cobbets conclusions . there are , that from the generality of promises and election running through the loyns of believers , will have all the children of believers to be in covenant and elect in the parcels though not in the lump , and m● . church his opinion comes near it , that we have ground from a judgment of charity that the parties to be baptized are in the promise to baptize them . but against this i argue . . that is to be the rule of judging a persons baptizability which is made the condition of a person to be baptized in the holy scripture . but no where in it is this made the condition of being baptized , that he be elect and in the covenant . . the scripture doth no where say that the election of god runs for the most part through the loyns of believers . and though there are promise , of blessing to the righteous and their seed , yet these are indefinite both for the kinde of blessing , and the person , and these promises are made onely to the truly righteous , and not to them , who are only such in appearance . wherfore there can be no certainty for a judgment of prudence to rest upon , to determin of any whether they are elect or not , in the covenant of grace or not , spiritually considering that god hath declared rom. . , , , , . that he ties not himself to believers children . now all judgment is to be suspended of that which is not revealed , the secret things belong to the lord our god , deut. . . . for infants of believers there is no ground for a judgment of charity , because they do nothing to shew whether they are in the covenant or no. and if it be revealed by god that they are all or some in covenant then we know it by a judgment of faith believing gods revelation , and so it is not a probable judgment of charity , but a certain judgment of verity , which directs in this . . if a probable judgment of charity that a person is elect and in covenant be the rule to direct in baptizing , then suppose a salvage in new england or elsewhere seeming to be affected in the the time of preaching should be judged in charity to an elect person in covenant he ought to be baptized by the minister so judging afore he owns christ by profession . it is promised that the israelits shall be graffed in again , and all israel saved , rom. . , , , , . and we may charitably judg it will be shortly , shall we baptize any of them or their infants upon this charitable judgment of their election and being in covenant afore profession ? . if a charitable judgement of election and being in covenant had been the rule to baptize , then sure john the baptist , and the baptizers appointed , had somewhere propounded that question , or made inquiry into that thing , but it was not so , they required repentance acts . . inquired into the faith of the baptized . . if this had been the direction ( baptize those that are elect or in covenant ) had been a blind derection unfit for men to follow , and so our lord should have imperfectly instructed his apostls and others , or rather have mocked them , putting them to do a business not feasiable by them . but this is not to be said of christ , especially the rule being so plain to baptize believers and disciples by profession . as for mr. chuch his conceit , that shews of grace and actual profession are a reason for baptizing onely as they are a ground for the judgment of charity that the paties to be baptized are in the promise ▪ i deny it . for the rule is not ( baptize persons in the covenant ) but ( disciples or believers of all nations . ) to that of the devils making a verbal profession , i have answered before . that which he saith that the judgment of charity ( meaning that they were in covenant ) was the rule by which john baptist and the apostles walked in baptizing is not true , for they baptized upon their profession which they certainly knew . and though they had no infallable knowledge of the individuals election or being in covenant , but baptized hypocrits not a few , yet they had an infallible knowledge of individuals confessing sins , brofessing repentancc and faith , for they heard them , and this was their rule , not the conjectural knowledg of a persons interest in the covenant or election of grace . sect . viii . acts . , . proves that interest in the promise intitles not to baptism without repentance . mr. church brings in a second objection , which is in effect what i allege exam. pag. . a right to evangelical promises is not the adequat reason of baptism , for the jews were in the promise acts . , . yet not baptized without preceeding repentance . to which he answers thus , a visible right to the promise either by shews of grace ( as in those of riper years ) or by the meaning a species in the promise without restriction , of which the parties to be baptized are individuals ( as the infants of visible professors are ) is a sufficient reason for baptism . to which i reply . if visible right ro the promise by shews of grace be a sufficient reason for baptism , then the rule i set down for admitting to baptism is yeilded to be aright . but for the new made rule of mr. church it is but an humane ivention without scripture warrans . he supposeth the infants of visible professors to be in the promise without restruction , and the promise i conceive he means is ( i will be thy god and the god of thy seed gen. . . ) but it is most false that that promise is made to any meer visible professors , but to abraham , not to any true believers natural seed , much less to any meer visible professors natural seed , but onely to a●rahams seed , who are onely elect and true believers of the gentils according to the spiritual part of it , as is proved before . yet were it granted that not onely the species , but also the individuals were named expressly in the covenant , i should deny they were to be baptized according to ordinary rule till they were known disciples and believers . the jewish people are in covenant rom. . , , , , . and yet not to be baptized till they believe , and peter acts . , . requires repentance for baptism , of whom he sayth , the promise is to you . but he tels me , the learned and rational of the anabaptists confess that if it could appear to them that an infant is in the covenant they would not doubt of the baptism of it , i answer , whatever others do , yet i disclaim that confession . i have granted sundry times as examen part . sect . part . . sect. . that regenerate , justified , adopted persons born into the world who have the inward grace are not to be debarred baptism , if it be known by special revelation , for they are then known disciples and believers . but i never said this of an infant in covenant . for an infant may be in covenant even then when he is unregenerate ( being in covenant ) nothing no more then having the promise made to him , which may be afore he is born , and therefore i should not yeld that of being in covenant , which i would do of actual regeneration . but mr. church makes some shew of answering the argument from acts . , . he tels us those jews rejecting and crucifying christ and atheistically mocking ●at gospel truths , ceased to have a visible right to the promise , untill they regained it by repentance . answer mr. church pag. . saith being in the promise is the reason rendred by the appostle for the receiving of baptism acts . , . therefore they that are rightly judged in it may be baptized . pag. . being in the promise is the onely reason mentioned by the apostle for baptism . doth not thus plainly assert that the jews then were righly judged by peter to be in the promise , and their right thereby to batism ? how then is it true which here he saith they ceased to have a visible right to the promise till they raigned repentance ? but it is not once onely that this author is off and on , saying and unsaying at a little distance . here he requires a visible right in the promise regained by repentance , a little before he saith the species being named without restriction in the promise as a sufficient reason of baptism . however i take his confession that notwithstanding what he said pag. . , . from acts . . . of the promise to them and their children , and thence inferring their infants tittle to baptism , as being the children of visible professors , to whom god had promised to be a god and to their seed , yet here he saith they ceased to have a visible right to the promise until they regained it by repentance , which the apostle supposeth they then had not , even then when he said , the promise is to you and your children : for he exhorteth to it as a thing to be done . but mr. church flutters like a bird in a net , seeking some evation from this objection , though all in vain . he tels us they were a mixt company to whom the apostles spake acts . , . and not all jews , for they were of divers languages ; and that they were adulti . but what is this to the avoyding the objection , that notwithstanding it is said the promise is to you , yet they were not intitled to baptism without repentance . he then discourseth , that repentance was in them onely in fieri before their baptism ▪ and that the apostle accepted of probabilities of it and baptized them ; for in that distance from his preaching , and their baptizing , so many could not have repentance visible by its fruits and discernable , and thence would gather , if such hainous sinners were baptized upon probability of repentance , therefore infants of christians guilty of no actual sin may be baptized unto repentance . to which i reply , . it is expressly said ver . . they that gladly received the word were baptized , therefore there were visible fruits of repentance and faith discerned by the apostles and other disciples , who were many and could confer with them in that space of time , and baptize them in that day , though their conversion was easily discernable without distinct conference with each . . his argument is not worth a rush , notwithstanding cyprians words to back it , to prove infant-baptism . for it goes upon this frivolous supposition , that infants because they have no actual sin may be baptized , though they shew no repentance , much rather then hainous and great transgressors upon probability of repentance . as if lesser sinners might be baptized upon no testimony of repentance , because greater sinners are baptized upon probability of repentance , which if true , the more civil and orderly persons , though pharisaically minded , as if they needed no repentance , have much more right to baptism , then publicans confessing their sins because but probably penitent . . all this is nothing to answer the objection , but to strengthen it , that notwithstanding the promise was to them , yet they were not to be baptized till their repentance , either in facto esse , or in fieri , either visible in fruits or at least probably conceived , of which neither is to be said of infants . yet mr. church is not ashamed to conclude thus . being in the promise is the onely reason mentioned by the appostle for baptism , ( whereas repentance is undeniably prerequired ) and that if any disable the reason he imputes not a little weakness to the apostles and their converts ; wheras he that disables the inference from being rightly judged in the promise to right of baptism , doth vindicate the apostle from weakness , which paedobaptists do by their exposition and inference thence blemish him with , and cast the blame of weakness onely on mr. church and such inconsiderate expounders and disputers as he is . i had not thought to have said so much of so poor a piece as that book is ; yet lest any say it is not answered i add . sect . ix . infants are not proved by mr. church , to be of the visible church christian. his second argument is , infants of christians are rightly judged to be of the church with christians of riper years , therefore they may be baptized . to which i say , his words are ambiguous , it being uncertain whether he means the antecedent of the visible or invisible church , of all infants of christians , or some ; but conceiving it meant of all , and of the visible church of christians , i deny the antecedent . and for his ten arguments , not one proveth it . the medium of the first is the antecedent of the former argument , to which i have answered before , denying that all the infants of christians are rightly judged to be in the promise of propriety in god , expressed gen. . . in those words , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed . but i deny the consequence also , that if it were true , that all the infants of christians are rightly judged in the promise of propriety in god , therefore they are rightly judged to be of the visible church : nor is it proved by that which he allegeth , ( for they onely are aliens from the common-wealth of israel , which are strangers from the covenant , ephes. . . ) for if it did prove , that all that are strangers from the covenant of promise are aliens from the visible church of christians , yet it proves not , that all who are in the covenant are in the visible church ; but the very truth is , neither the one nor the other is proved from that place ; for this only is asserted there , that the ephesians who were gentiles in the flesh , who are called uncircumcision , by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made with hands , no proselytes were in the time of their infidelity & idol-service , then without the policy of israel and the covenants of promise : but it doth not follow that every one that was then uncircumcised in the flesh , and out of the policy of israel , meaning the outward policy , was stranger from the promise of propriety in god , meaning of it of saving propriety ; for cornelius , acts . was a stranger from the policy of israel , being no citizen , but unclean , as being a gentile , uncircumcised , yet then he feared god , god heard his prayers , accepted his alms , &c. much less now that every one that is rightly judged to be in the promise of propriety in god is of the visible church , or every one that is rightly judged of the visible church , is rightly judged to have the promise of propriety in god. his next argument is , infants of christians are rightly called the lords children , for his manner hath been to call the children of his people his children . in the old world some were called the sons of god , as children of his people , gen. . , . and the infants of the israelites were called by him , his children born to him , ezek. . , . and their lawfull seed , a seed of god. and the jews were accounted to him great and small in every age untill the breaking off ; and the same was prophesied of the gentiles , when they shall be converted , and of the jews when they shall be grafted in again : and the psalmist calls himself the lords servant , as he was the son of his handmaid : therefore such infants are rightly judged to be of the church , which is the house of god. answ. not one of these texts proves the church-membership of christians infants . the term sons of god , gen. . , . is attributed to persons before the floud , and those not infants , but such as took them wives of all that they chose , which could not be said of infants ; nor are they said to be sons of god , because children of believers , but because they professed the true worship of god , dei filios professione christ. cartwright eborac . annot. in locum , such as descending from seth and enoch professed the true worship of the true god , new annot. i omit the opinions of josephus , aquila , and many of the ancients , recited by mr. gataker against pfochenius , cap. . and the other of the chaldee paraphrase , r. solomon , symmachus , that they are called sons of god , because sons of potentates or judges , of which mr. cartwright ubi supra , and that of others sons of god , that is , eminent men , because i think the other is more right : however they are not called sons of god , that is , visible church-members by their descent , but by their profession , which is not to be said of infants . it is true ezek. . , . the children of israel are said to be born to god , that is , of right as their land was the lords land , hos. . . and this did aggravate their sin , that those that were of right his were sacrificed to idols : now this was by reason of that peculiar interest which god had in that people , vers . . but that what is said of the sons of the jews is true of all the infants of believers , or that this is enough to entitle the infants of christians to visible church-membership , and the initial seal , as they call it , is yet to be proved . of mal. . , . i have spoken sufficiently in the first part of this review , sect. . . of the ample disquisition : to which i add that in the second edition of the new annot. these words are added suitable to my exposition of a legitimate seed ; all other seed is spurious , not a lawfull seed ; nor such fathers are lawfull fathers , who so pervert the order and ordinance of matrimony , god puts his mark of infamy upon the seed it self , deut. . . which shews that with calvin that authour understood , by a seed of god , a legitimate seed . that which is said psalm . . a seed shall serve him , it shall be accounted to the lord for a generation , hath no shew of any thing for infants visible church-membership : it cannot be expounded of infants while such : for how can it be said , they shall serve the lord ? but it notes onely a continuance of the church promised in a people , who should when some decease , stand up after them to serve the lord. the impertinency of that jer. . . is shewed before . as little to the purpose is that psalm . . he doth not say , he was the lords servant as he was the son of his handmaid ; and it was to express his mean condition or humility , as mary , luke . . not his privilege , and his subjection to god , not his right he could clame from god ; yet if there were any privilege imported in this title ( son of thine hand-maid ) mr. church must prove it to be church-membership , and that not proper to him as a jew , but common to all christians ere it will serve his turn , which he cannot do . enough is said before in the ample disquition , to prove that cor. . . children are not denominated holy , because they appertain to the church . the remnant to be called holy , isai . . are either such jews as in the captivity escaped alive , who should be holy in respect of their worship , not serving idols , but the living god , or such converted believers in the christian church as should be written in the book of life , which makes nothing to infants church-membership . the church is not called the circumcision , rom. . . & . . but the jewish people . the christians infants are not rightly judged to be of the church christian , because the hebrews children were of the church jewish , god now not taking one whole nation for his church , but disciples of christ in all nations . abraham is said , rom. . . to have received the sign of circumsion a seal of the righteousness of faith , which he had yet being uncircumcised ; but that any other mans circumcision was so to him , much less that every infants circumcision was such to them , i reade not : sure the tenour of the words imports no more than this , that abrahams circumcision in his own person was an assurance to all believers though themselves uncircumcised of righteousness by faith to be imputed to them also . what divines though of never so great esteem thence infer of the nature of circumcision , that it is a seal of the righteousness of faith , of all sacraments , that it is their nature to be seals of the covenant of grace , that to whom the covenant belongs to them the seal belongs , and consequently to infants , are but their mistakes , not the doctrine of the text. of mark . enough is said before . of infants may be the kingdom of god , yet they not in the visible church . the speech ( out of the church is no salvation ) is true of the invisible church of the elect , and is so expounded by dr. morton apol. cath. and others ; of the visible it is not true ; rahab had been saved though she had never been joyned to the visible church of the jews . what i said , that it is uncertain whether the infants brought to christ , mark . . were the infants of christian disciples or believers , is true ; for it is not said , their parents brought them , and though it be probable they that brought them believed on christ , yet it is uncertain whether they believed him to be the christ , or some eminent prophet , as matth. . . luke . . the daughter of the syrophoenician was called a dog , matth. . . not because she was not a believers childe , but because a gentiles childe , not an israelitess . though di●t . . . isai . . circumcision of the heart and the spirit be promised to the seed of the godly , yet it is not promised to any but the elect , as the fuller promise , isai. . . is expounded by christ himself , john . . and therefore not as mr. church saith , to children , as they are the children of gods people , if ( as ) be taken reduplicatively ; for then all the children of gods people should have the spirit promised . nor is the spirit promised to them in their infancy , and yet if it were , till they shew it , we have no warrant to take them for visible church-members , or to baptize them without special revelation . it is largely proved above that acts . . no infant is called a disciple . there may be hope of infants salvation , they may be of the body of christ , though they be not of the visible church . our infants and our selves though believers are yet heathens , that is , of the nations by birth , and had been reputed dogs as well as the woman of canaans childe , matth. . . if we had then lived : but in the sense as it is now used , and as it was a title of infamy and rejection , matth. . we are not to be called heathens , that is , infidels , and whose society is to be shunned ; nor our infants , who are neither infidels nor believers , they being not capable of faith in that state ordinarily : as in logick they say , a whelp till the ninth day is neither blinde nor seeing , there being a middle of abnegation of either extreme , by reason of the incapacity of the subjects , so we may say our infants are neither infidels nor believers . what mr. church allegeth out of rev. . . serves onely to beget hatred towards antipaedobaptists : for ( without ) there is meant of being without the city or heavenly jerusalem , vers . . and dogs , there are ranked with sorcerers , and whoremongers , and murderers , and idolaters , and such like ; neither of which needs be said of infants ; though we say , they are not visible members in the christian church , and that they are not yet believers . christ an infant was head of the church , yet visibly he appeared not the head of the church , till he was manifested to be so . infants may be members of christ the head invisibly , but not visibly till they shew faith . sect . x. infants capacity of some respects different from discipleship , entitles them not to baptism . in the third argument is not much more than was said before , and is answered . jews infants were meet for circumcision , because of the command to them ; ours not meet for baptism , because we have no command or example : it is true matth. . . a little childe is made a pattern to those that are saved , in respect of humility or freedom from ambition : but it doth not thence follow that this meer negation of ambition doth qualifie them for baptism , unto which , actual discipleship or profession is ordinarily necessary . christ admittted to him , and blessed little children , mark . . but did not appoint to baptize them , which it is likely he would , if he had judged them meet for it . if parents may enter into covenant for their children , and dedicate them by solemn vow , as hannah did , ( of which there is cause of doubt whether now it is to be done as then ) yet it follows not they are to be baptized , sith baptism is to be the persons own engagement , not anothers for him : yea if this reason be good each parent may baptize its own childe , though a woman , sith hannah could dedicate her childe by vow to god : if israel be holiness to the lord , jer. . . yet it follows not believing gentiles infants are meet for baptism , joel . . the children that suck the breast are required to fast : if this prove them meet for baptism , by like reason should the ninivites children and cattle be meet too , jonah . , , . the psalmist was cast on god from his mothers belly , psal. . . not by dedication to god , but by special providence , as vers . . shews . infants of christians , it is rightly judged may have in them the principal things signified by baptism , but not that they have them till they shew it . if mr. church could make it good that god undertakes for what is wanting in the infants of his people through infancy , as he doth for what is wanting in his people through infirmity , he should say somewhat to purpose : but i am out of hope to finde any good proofs from him , but trifling dictates and impertinent allegations , psalm . . is a prayer , wherein the psalmist prays god , to be surety for him for good , that is , says the new annot. to put himself between him and his enemies , as if he were his pledg : it is no undertaking he will , and if it be , it is nothing for his infants , surely not to supply what is wanting in them by reason of infancy for baptism ; he will circumcise the hearts of his peoples children , deut. . . but this is meant of their elect children onely , and not necessarily to be performed in infancy . christs promise matth. . . is upon condition of agreement by two or three to ask in his name , nor is it said for them and theirs , however not without subordination to his secret purpose , and other limitations . that of isai . , is rightly expounded in the new annot. by learned mr. gataker , all his kindred and allies with their issue as well small as great shall partake of eliakims honour , in one imployment or other : so that this with the other texts , might as well prove a man in the moon , as that which mr. church infers , therefore such infants are judged meet for baptism . his next , that christians infants have righteousness by imputation , rom. . . as they have guilt by imputation , is true onely of the elect , but makes them not meet for baptism till they are called . what he says , shews of grace are not necessary to the judging infants of christians meet for baptism , is said without proof ; the contrary is proved before . all his reasons he brings to prove it , serve as well to prove them not necessary that a person be judged meet for the lords supper . infants may be rightly judged to have original sin in them without shews , because the scripture says so , but tells us of none meet for baptism , but disciples and believers . the israelites infants did as much eat the lords supper , as were baptized , cor. . , , , . if the text proves the one , it proves the other . baptism is called baptism unto repentance , matth. . . as well as baptism of repentance , it is well it is confessed that johns baptism was called the baptism of repentance ; but it is true also that it is often so called mark . . luke . . acts . . & . . and but once unto repentance : and it might have been observed which beza notes on matth. . . that it might be there read ( at repentance , or when they repent ) as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , matth. . . is rendered , ( at the preaching of jonah ) however if it be read ( unto repentance ) the meaning is to the same effect , that when he baptized them they professed repentance for the present , and for the future . in answer to the objection , infants by like reason should have the lords supper , he tells us , that the ceremonies are different , in the one the person is to be active , in the other passive : but the scripture says not so , but requires baptism as a duty , and thereto profession of faith as a prerequisite . he saith , baptism is the sacrament of entrance into the church , the other of progress ; but this proves the rather that infants should have the lords supper , sith they are to grow and make progress after their entrance . what he saith , it cannot be given to infants , is false : for they can take bread and wine , and it was given them six hundred years together , as many both protestants and papists confess . what he saith argument . pag. . sealing the covenant by an initial sacrament to infants of gods people aforetime was not peculiar to that church-state , is manifestly false : for that sealing was no other than circumcision , which if it were not proper to the jewish church-state , nothing was . it is frivolous which mr. church says , the commission to baptize must be expounded by the command to circumcise . what is said about the antiquity of infant-baptism is elsewhere answered , exam. part . . apol. sect. , . praecursor sect. . dionysius areopagita is a spurious authour , as whole juries of protestants and papists confess . salmasius saith in his letter to colvius , pag. . that he is no elder than the fith age , pag. . it is certain that he wrote about the fith age . there 's plainer proof for episcopacy being in use nearer the apostles days than for paedobaptism : it is no intolerable presumption but a certain truth in them that assert , that infant-baptism is not so ancient as is pretended , as now taught is a late innovation . in his fifth arg. he undertakes to shew , infants have great profit by baptism , but either asserts a meer title , or a profit which they have not by their baptism , or that which they may have without it . it is not true , that there is the like profit to infants by baptism as by circumcision ; for the one is appointed and not the other , and there is no penalty for omitting infant-baptism as for neglecting infant-circumcision , nor any promise or privilege assigned to infant-baptism as to infant-circumcision . sect . xi . the agreements between circumcision and baptism , do not justifie infant-baptism , and the validity of sealing infants with an initial seal now , is shewed to be null . his sixth and last argument runs thus , the promise was sealed by the initial sacrament aforetime to infants of visible professors , seeking it for them both jews and gentile , therefore it may be sealed to the infants of christians by the initial sacrament . the antecedent he proves not , it is in effect no more than the infants of jews and proselytes were circumcised , onely mr. church useth the affected phraseology of paedobaptists to call that sealing the promise by the initial sacrament , which is no more than circumcision , which it is false did seal , or assure to every circumcised person the promise of propriety in god , or any other promise made in the covenant with abraham , gen. . and he says , it was sealed to infants of visible professors ; intimating it was done to them by reason of their profession , and not to others ; whereas the infants of any in his house , whether born in abrahams house , or bought with his money , who were not of his seed , but a strangers children , were by command to be circumcised . he puts in his conclusion ( our baptism ) for ( sealing by the initial sacrament ) but to let pass these stale paralogisms ; he takes on him to prove the consequence by six arguments . the first is , the principal promise is not made void . he means that gen. . . but gives no reason why that should be the principal promise , and not that v. . but i grant that promise gen. . . meant of abrahams seed by faith is not made void . he thence concludes , therefore it may be sealed to the infants of christians by the initial sacrament in this dispensation ; which is not a proof of the consequence , but of the conclusion of the former argument ; nor is there any force in this inference : for though the promise were still in force as then , yet it is not a sufficient reason to baptize an infant , the command being not to baptize persons in covenant , but disciples of christ. in his second he tells us , sealing that promise by an initial sacrament to infants of gods people ( which was the substance of circumcision , and a distinct thing from it ) did not of right cease with the jewish church-state ; for it was not peculiar to that church as a national church ; for that promise was sealed to infants by the initial sacrament long before the existence of a national church , and to infants of strangers which were not of that nation gen. . . sealing the promise by an initial sacrament is principally in reference to the catholik church . for shews of grace are sufficient to it , though● the parties have not joyned themselves to any particulor church acts . , . and . and one that cannot be rightly judged to be of the catholick church cannot have the promise sealed to him by an initial sacrament , though he be a member of a particular church . answer . that which mr. church saith ( sealing that promise by an initial sacrament to infants of gods people was the substance of circumcision and a distinct thing from it ▪ ) is many waies faulty in respect of falsehood , and obscurity . for . the substance of circumcision as a type or shadow is christ exhibited , as the apostle col. . . not the promise of god to every infant of a believer by profession . as circumcision was asign or taken of the covenant made with abraham ; and it is true the promise gen. . . was the thing signified by it , but not onely that part , i will be the god of thy seed , but also the other , i will be thy god , yea and all the rest of the promises as ver . . thou shalt be a father of many nations , fruitfulness , descent of kings ver . . inheritance of canaan ver . . yet how the promises or the sealing of them should be the substance of circumcision i do not understand . circumcision was a ceremony consisting of an action and a relation . circumcision as an action hath no other substance or essence but the cutting off the little skin , as a relation , the signifying , or sealing is the very relation , but it is a trifling speech to say , paternity is the substance of paternity , if the promises sealed be meant to be the substance yet no logicians i know so speak , to call the object of sight the substance of sight , the thing signified the substance of the sign . faith is heb. . . said to be the substance of things hoped for , but there the act is said to be the substance of the object , not the object the substance of the act , & so the covenant should not be the substance of circumcision , but circumcision , the substance of the covenant . . it is more unintelligible to me , how sealing the promise by an initial sacrament to infants of gods people was the substance of circumcision and yet a distinct thing . for , first , if he mean that it was the substance of circumcision as a relation , that is the essence of it ( in which sense only i know how to understand his speech ) then sure it was the very same and no distinct thing , the essence being not a distinct thing from the essentiate , the thing defined and definition are not two distinct things , though the notion be formally distinct ; if he mean that sealing that promise by an initial sacrament should be the genus to circumcision , yet so it should not be a distinct thing , the genus and species are not distinct really but formally , quae formaliter distinguunter non habent se ut res et . res kick. ●ist . log . lib. . part . . cap , . nor was there any other sealing that promise by an initial sacrament then by circumcision , and therefore no real distinction , all the distinction was meerly notional or verbal , circumcision being one word , and sealing with the initial seal at that time another , yet both expressing the same thing . if any imagine a sealing with an initial seal then that was not circumcision let him shew what it is and were commanded : mr. church himself pag. . calls circumcision the initial sacrament aforetime . . sealing the promise by an initial sacramment is said to be the substance of circumcision , yet pag. . he saith it was a distinct thing from sealing the promise , and only a ceremony for that time . wherin sundry inconsistences seem to be . that sealing the promise by an initial seal should be the substance of circumcision , & yet circumcision a distinct thing from it . is the substance of a being a distinct thing from it ? the substance of a man a distinct thing from a man ? . that sealing the promise should be the substance of circumcision , and yet circumcision onely a ceremony for that time . is that a ceremony to a thing which is the substance of it ? . that circumcision doth cease yet not that sealing the promise by that initial sacrament which was no other then circumcision . let him that can read these riddles , i am no such ocdipus as to unfold them . but let mr. church use what gibberish he please i know no other initial sacrament then that of circumcision mentioned in the old testament , nor any sealing then commanded but it , and if it cease , then all the ruls about it cease to bind , and so are no rule to us now . but saith he pag. . the sealing of promise is not ceased , far seals are added in dispensation to the covenant . to which i reply . a thing is said to cease either of right or of fact which was of right to be or had being before but not now . there was no sealing by an initial seal aforetime that had being of right or of fact aforetime but circumcision , which mr. church saith was the initial seal aforetime , therefore circumcision ceasing , sealing with the initial seal aforetime ceased , there being no other foretime . but saith mr. church it is not ceased , for seals are added in this dispensation to the covenant , he means doubtless baptism and the lords supper , and by seals other seals , and so his reason is sealing of the promise by an initial sacrament which was aforetime is not ceased , because other seals are added , which is as if one should say , the night is not past because the sun is risen , the reason is good to the contrary , there are other seals added , therefore the sealing with the initial seal , aforetime is ceased . but , saith he , it did not of right cease with the jewish church state : for it was not peculiar too that church as a national church . answer . if circumcision were not perticular to the jewish church-state i know nothing peculiar to it . and if it were not peculiar to that church as a national church why was the nation peculiarly called the circumcision , and other people the uncircumcision rom. . . and for that which is alledged , that promise was scaled to infants by the initial sacrament long before the existence of a national church and to infants of strangers which were not of that nation , i conceive neither is true . for circumcision was not till abrahams nation were a church . for he had before that time taught them the way of the lord gen. . ● . and they worshipped the true god , as appears by the many altars he built to jehovah ▪ and though abrahams house was but a small nation , yet it was a nation . and though infants of strangers were circumcised , yet it was not without in corporation into that nation , so that they were of that nation if not by birth , yet as proselytes added thereto ; nevertheless if it had been before the existence of the national church of the jews , it might cease with that church-state , as the distinction of clean and unclean beasts was before abrahams dayes , as appears by gen. . . and yet that distinction ceased with the jewish church state . as for his second reason it is of no force . for when he saith , sealing the promise by an initial sacrament is principally in reference to the catholike church ▪ he means it , i conceive , of baptism , else acts . , . & . . are cited to no purpose . but there is no colour of consequence in mr. churches reason , thus framed , baptism joined men to the universal church , therefore circumcision was not peculiar to the jewish church-state , or that it ceased not with the jewish church-state . as for his other assertion , that [ one that cannot be rightly judged to be of the catholick church , cannot have the promise rightly sealed to him by an initial sacrament , though he be a member of a particular church , ] it being of no weight to the present argument , i shall not so fitly meddle with it till i come to answer the . ch . of mr. bs. first part of plain scripture proof , &c. as for his third argument , it proves not the consequence . [ for though faith and repentance be required of some afore circumcision ] yet it was not required of infants afore circumcision . but afore baptism it is required of all mat. . . mark . . acts . . & . , , . to the fourth , i say though [ infants now are capable of the promise as the jews infants were , ] and that [ they could bear baptism as well as the jews infants could circumcision , yet without a like command ( which cannot be found ) they are not to be baptized as the other were to be circumcised . as for the fifth argument , it is false , that [ baptism is as appliable to infants as circumcision was ; for there is not the like command , without which though it were , that no more action were required in the subject to be baptized then in the subject to be circumcised ( which is false , as appears from matt. . . mark . acts . . acts . , , . ) and though it were that the parities were more between them then they are , yet they make no rule for baptism without a command or institution . but it is false which he saith , that baptism is the same sacrament with circumcision and as for the twelve parities , brought by mr. church , some are doubtful , as the first [ that they are both initial sacraments of the covenant of grace ] in some sense with some limitations it may be true , but in other , even in that sense it is commonly taken , it is not true ; to wit , that the essence of them consists therein , and that they are so to all rightly circumcised or baptized . the second is likewise ambiguous , in some sense true , in some false . those that might not be rightly judged to be in the promise might be circumcised , however it be concerning baptism . and those that may be rightly accounted to be of the church , meaning the invisible , yet are not therefore to be baptized . the third likewise is doubtful by reason of the different waies of being accounted to the church , and the doubt whether a person be to be accounted of the church afore baptism or after . the words acts . . . seem to prove that they are added to the church after baptism . neither is the fourth or fifth certain . for women ordinarily entred into the church aforetime without circumcision , and did eat the passeover . the eighth is not true of every circumcised persons circumcision , nor of every baptized persons baptism , that it is an external seat of the righteousness of faith . in the tenth something is untrue . for in the new dispensation ( as the phrase is ) are not both temporal and spiritual promises sealed as well as in the former , if he mean it of the same temporal promises , we have better promises heb. . but not the ●ame , not the promise of the land of canaan , of greatness , prosperity , &c. but rather a prediction of persecution , if we will live godly in christ jesus . christians have christ , and all other things by that part of the covenant made with abraham , which is spiritual , but not by that part which is proper to the israelites . in the eleventh mr. church seems to be out in his computation about the beginning of baptism , and end of circumcision . he saith [ circumcision of right ended when baptism began to be an initial sacrament , and that was not surely till iohn began to baptize , which was not till the fifteenth year of tiberius , as is plain from luke . , . now mark his reason , for christs circumcision was the period of it . now if christs circumcision was the period of it , then it did cease almost thirty years before baptism began to be an initial sacrament , christ being circumcised in the reign of augustus . but whence doth he gather that circumcision of right ended , when baptism began to be an initial sacrament ? for my part i find no such thing in scripture . if our lords words iohn . , . do not prove it was then in force , yet those speeches of the apostle ephes. . , , . of abolishing the law of commandments in ordinances , and slaying the enmity by his cross , and col. . . of blotting out the hand-writing of ordinances , which was against us , and took it away nailing it to his cross , do determine that circumcision did of right continue until christs death , and so some years after , baptism began to be a sacrament initial . the usual doctrine is , that the ceremonies of the law became dead with christ , deadly after the open promulgation of the gospel , and calling of the gentiles , diodati annot . on matth. . . and this breach was a sign that by the death of christ all mosaical ceremonies were annihilated . but mr. church tells us , circumcision ceased to be needful when iohn began to baptize , for the law is said to continue but untill john , luke . . to which i answer , i know not why circumcision should not be as needful as the pass over , which our saviour himself observed luke . . and offering the gift to the priest that moses commanded , matth. . . i presume the command of circumcision was in force till after christs death as well as the command of the passeover , seventh day sabbath and other things . as for mr. church his reason if it were good , that circumcision was needless when iohn began to baptise , because it is said the law was untill iohn , by the same reason he might say ▪ all the rest of the law , yea and the prophets were needless , when iohn began to baptize . but the meaning is , the ministery of the law and prophets continued , till iohn , or as it is matth. . . all the prophets and the law prophecied until iohn , that is , declared christs comming as future , and when iohn began then the kingdom of god began to be preached , and therefore mark . , . the beginning of the gospel of iesus christ the son of god is said to be upon iohns preaching ; for then the messiah was named as present , behold the lamb of god which taketh away the sin of the world , john. . . lastly saith mr. church [ the apostle plainly teacheth that baptism is the same sacrament to christians that circumcision was to gods people aforetime col. . . . arguing against the continuance of circumcision : in this dispensation he uses two arguments , which argue no less . for . christ being come ( who was the body of the old shadows ) they of right ceased . . that baptism was now the sign of our mortification , for which circumcision served aforetime . ] to which i answer , neither doth the apostle plainly , that is , in express terms , teach col. . , . what ever mr. church , or mr. calvin say , that baptism is the same sacrament to christians that circumcision was to gods people aforetime , nor do his reasons prove it . for by the same reason we might say it of putting away of leaven out of their houses , and keeping the passeover with unleavened bread : baptism is the same sacrament to christians that the feast of unleavened bread was to gods people aforetime . for . christ being come ( who was the body of the old shadows ) they of right ceased . . that baptism is now the sign of mortification , for which keeping the feast with unleavened bread served aforetime , cor. . , . but were all these parities between circumcision and baptism , which master church mentions , right , yet they prove not his conclusion , that the initial sacrament in this dispensation is as appliable to infants of christians as the initial sacrament aforetime was to infants of gods people . for if not all these , yet as many other parities may be reckoned , at least according to paedobaptists hypotheses , between baptism and the passeover , as , that they are both sacraments of the covenant of grace , both ceremonies to be used about those that might rightly be judged in the promise , and accounted of the church , the ordinary way of communion in the church , not allowed to those without , engaging to observancy of the covenant according to the several administrations , signs of mortification , external seals of the righteousness of faith distinguishing gods people from infidels , to cease at christs comming , &c. and yet i suppose mr. church will not have them the same sacrament . yea as many disparities between circumcision and baptism may be reckoned as mr. church reckons parities , as that the one was a shadow of christ to come , not the other ; the one a token of the mixt covenant made to abraham , which was of promises peculiar to the jews , not the other ; the one a domestick action to be done in the house , the other an ecclesiastick belonging to the church ; the one to be done by the parents in that respect , not so the other ; the one with cutting off a part , not the other ; the one with drawing blood , not the other ; the one to males onely , the other to females also ; the one to be on the eighth day whatever it were , the other not limitted to any precise day ; the one made a visible impression on the body , and that permanent , not so the other ; the one to be done with an artificial and sharp , the other with a natural and not wounding instrument ; the one to all males belonging to the house of abraham even infants , but not to others though godly , except they joined themselves to that family : the other to believers or disciples of all nations ; the one engaging to keep moses his law , not so the other . but be the disparities or parities what they will , the only rule in these meer positive rites is the institution or command : so that were the sacraments ( as they are called ) the same in kind , use , analogy , or what other way they may be deemed the same , yet without a rule of command or example intimating such a command , we are not bound to do the like in the one , as we do in the other . as for the sixth argument , that nothing can be soundly collected from the scriptures against infant-baptism ; the contrary hath appeared above in the second part of this review sect . &c. what he grants that it may be soundly gathered that all of riper years should be discipled before baptism from the commission matth. . . doth also prove , that they had no commission to baptize any but discipled persons , and so none but those of riper years , not infants unless there be shewed some other commission : which is not to be found in the scripture , but only in corrupt tradition of antiquity , and the jewish arguings of latter divines , and is not yet found any other then will-worship . to all which mr. church further brings answer is made before , the vindicating of my objections will most fitly come in the reply to masters marshalls defence , to which i shall hasten after the dispatch of some few other authors . sect . xii . doctor featley his argument for infant-baptism from the covenant , is examined . mr. rutherford is another of the authors , whose writing mr. baxter tells , yet remains to be answered . but i know not any writing of his in which he doth directly dispute against anti-paedobaptists . i confess i have met with a dispute against those of the congregational way of discipline in his peaceable and temperate plea , c. . q. . for denying baptism to those infants whose next parent is not a known believer in some gathered church , who yet do hold and practise baptism of such infants , whose next parent is a church-member . but that dispute going only against them , and upon his grounds denied and refuted by me elsewhere , it were out of my way to answer what he saith there . if there be any other writing of his , i presume some one or other of the antagonists i refute , have the strength of it : yet i intend if such a one do occurre to me , to give account of it as i shall find meet . mr. robert baillee is another to whose writing mr. b. points me . but his first argument i have already enervated in the addition to my apology in my letter to him , and answering his three first criminations , especially the third , and have shewed , sect . . that he doth but calumniate , when he charges us to affirm , that no infants have any place in the covenant of grace , or any gospel promises till they be called by the word , and by an actual faith have embraced the gospel . what other arguments he brings are answered either in answering others that bring the same , or it s intended shall be answered in fit place . there are many others who have written of this argument in the english tongue , each of which forms his argument from the covenant to the initial seal , from infant circumcision to infant-baptism , with some difference in terms , or phrasifying , though in effect all of them are reduced into the three forms in the , , . sect . of my exercitation , and rest on these false principles , that interest in the covenant of grace was the adequate reason of a persons title to circumcision , and is the adequate reason of a persons title to baptism , and that there is the like reason of baptizing infants of believers , as of circumcising infants of abraham by virtue of the like interest in the covenant , though there be not the like command for the one as for the other , nevertheless that it may not be said i have neglected any thing conceived worth answering , or to have slighted any of their labours , i shall briefly answer the arguments of such as have come to my hands , and then more largely answer mr. geree , mr. marshall , mr. cobbet , mr. blake , mr. baxter , who have opposed my writings , taking in others by the way , as i see fit . dr. featley is one that hath been a leader of the prelatical party , and is judged by them to have proved paedobaptism learnedly . his dispute is in his dipper d●pt , p. . arg . . thus . [ all they who are comprized within the covenant , and are no where prohibited to receive the seal thereof , may and ought to receive it : but children are comprized within the covenant of faith , whereof circumcision was a seal , rom. . . and now baptism is , ergo children may and ought to receive baptism . of the major or first proposition there can be no doubt ; for it is unjust to deprive a man of the confirmation of that to which he hath a true right or title . and for the minor or assumption , it is as cleer , for so are the words of the covenant gen. . . i will establish my covenant between me and thee , and thy seed after thee . ] against which i except , first , that the syllogism is many waies faulty ; . that he puts in the conclusion [ children ] as all one with infants . . that in the conclusion there is this term not exprest in the major [ may and ought to receive baptism ] for that which is in the major [ may and ought to receive the seal of the covenant ] is not all one with [ may and ought to receive baptism ] baptism and seal of the covenant being not equipollent , besides circumcision , passeover , lords supper , the ephesians are said to be sealed with the holy spirit of promise ephes. . . nor is the term [ seal of the covenant ] applyed to sacraments any other than a novel expression , neither used in scripture , nor the antients . rom. . . doth not term circumcision ( much less other sacraments as they are called ) a seal of the covenant of faith , as the doctor misallegeth it , but a seal of the righteousness of faith , which he had being yet uncircumcised . whence it appears that it was a seal of what he had , not of a covenant concerning what he was to have : and this is said onely of abrahams circumcision , with such an observing of particularizing circumstances , as shew it to be appropriated to abrahams circumcision , what ever is said of circumcisions being a seal of the righteousness of faith , however divines dictate to the contrary , and therefore what the doctor addes in the minor ( which multiplies the terms in the syllogism ) [ and now baptism is ] asserting thereby baptism to be a seal of the covenant of faith , is said without proof , though i should not stick to grant it in this sense , that to the true believer his baptism assures righteousness according to gods covenant , and the true believer by baptism gives testimony or assurance of his faith according to his covenant , as being unwilling to wrangle about terms if we agree in the meaning . but in the sense paedobaptists use it , as containing the nature of a sacrament , i shall reject it in that which followes . . against the doctors omission of some words in the minor , [ and are no where prohibited to receive the seal therof ] which were in the major . . that the term [ and are no where prohibited to receive the seal thereof ] is ambiguous . for it may be understood either of an express prohibition in forbidding terms , or a prohibition by consequence . it is granted in so many express words , infants are not prohibited to receive baptism , no nor the lords supper , yet they are by good consequence to be denied both , in as much as both are disagreeing from the institution and practice of those rites in the new testament . wherefore to the doctors argument , i except against the form of it , as containing more then three terms , the predicate in the conclusion not being in the major , part of the medium in the major being left out in the minor. and if it be thus formed [ all they who are comprized within the covenant of faith , and are no where prohibited to receive the seal thereof , may and ought to be baptized : but infants of believers are comprized , &c. ergo. ] i deny the major if meant of gods covenant to us , or promise either of faith or righteousness to infants by it , as the alleging gen. . . imports the doctor meant . but grant it of those who are comprized within the covenant of faith by their covenanting to be believers , in which sense i deny the minor , that children , that is infant-children are comprized in the covenant of faith by their covenanting to be believers ; yea and if the proposition be universal , all children , or all infant-children of believers are comprized in gods covenant of faith or promise that he will give them faith or righteousness by faith , i deny it . nor is the major proved by the doctor . for it is no unjust thing to deny baptism to a person to whom it is not appointed ; now baptism is appointed to disciples or believers , not to whom god promiseth to give faith or righteousness by faith . besides were it true that god had so promised it and confirmation of it were due ; yet without institution confirmation by baptism were not due ; god hath other waies to confirm it , as by his oath heb. . . the blood of his son , cor. . . his spirit , cor. . . a man that is bound to pass an estate , and to seal it , may not be bound to a further confirmation by fine and recovery . besides its no injustice not to confirm ones right who doth not claim and prove it . but this infants do not . and for the minor , the words gen. . have nothing about the second part of the proposition , nor do indeed prove any to be comprized in that promise , but abraham and his seed , of which sort none of gentile-believers children are , but those that are true believers as he was , or elect by god to adoption of children . the objection the doctor brings in is not rightly framed , nor do i deny the answer the doctor gives is sufficient to overthrow it as so formed . but what the doctor dictates , that all true believers and their children are to be reckoned among children of the promise , is contradictory to the apostles determination rom. . , . as the apostle is expounded by dr. featly himself in the new annot. on rom. . . in which he thus speaks , not all they who are carnally born of abraham by the course of nature are the children of god to whom the promise of grace was made ; but the children of promise , that is , those who were born by vertue of the promise , those who by gods special grace were adopted ( as isaac by a special , and singular promise was begot by abraham ) they only are accounted for that seed mentioned in the covenant , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed . sect . xiii . the arguments of mr. william lyford , from the covenant for infant-baptism are examined . mr. william lyford in his apology for infant-baptism page . thus disputes . all that are taken into the covenant of grace ought to receive the initial sign [ what ever the sign be that god shall chuse ] and that according to the commandment of god , and our lord jesus christ. but infants are taken into covenant with their parents , as is proved ; therefore by the commandment of the lord they ought to receive the sign which god hath enjoined to be used , and that sign is baptism . to which i answer , by denying the major , and for his proof out of gen. . , . i deny , . that there is any command for any other initial sign but circumcision . . that circumcision is there appointed to all who are taken into the covenant of grace , not to lot , melchisedeck , job or their children , not to the females of abrahams house , not to the males under eight daies old , not to the proselytes of the gate as cornelius was . . that the adequate reason why any was to be circumcised was interest in the covenant , gen. . . but the command only . for both ishmael who was not in the covenant was to be circumcised because of the command , and as hath been shewed , others in the covenant were not to be circumcised through defect of the command . nor is the minor true , if understood of all the infants of believers , or any of them as their infants , nor is there a word to prove it gen. . . which is onely a promise to abrahams seed , and they of the gentiles are only true believers or elect persons . but perhaps mr. lyford mends the matter in the next form , which is this pag. . if infants have a right to the covenant and the initial sign therof , then it is a wrong to deny it to them . but infants have a right to the covenant and the initial sign thereof , both by gods original grant , gen. . . . and by christs confirmation of that covenant made to their fathers , rom. . therefore it is a wrong to deny it them . the covenant under which we are , is the gospel covenant , made long since with us englishmen and our infant-seed , with a command of giving them the sign , which at first was circumcision , and now baptism by the same divine authority enjoined and commanded to be given without any exception of any within the covenant . i answer by denying the minor , and to the proof by denying that gen. . , . there is command of any other initial sign than circumcision , or that circumcision is commanded to all that had a right to the covenant , or that the gospel covenant was made long since with us englishmen , and our seed as our seed , or that there was in that of circumcision any command to us to baptize infants , or that divine authority hath commanded baptism to be given without any exception of any within the covenant . but i affirm he hath commanded only to baptize those in the covenant who are disciples or believers . but mr. lyford adds further p. . all those to whom the blessings and promises in the covenant do belong , t them also belongs baptism , the sign thereof ( by the doctrine of st. peter , and of jesus christ himself ) but to infants of believing parents , the blessings and promises of the covenant do belong before actual faith , therefore by the doctrine of the holy ghost in scripture , such infants ought to be baptized before actual faith . the major or first part of this argument is the very reason of the text. the minor proposition , viz. that the blessings and promises of the covenant do belong to infants before actual faith is proved by these reasons . . by the express words of peter , which say , the promise is to your children . . by the express words of our saviour , of such is the kingdom of heaven . . by example of isaac and jacob , they were children of the promise before actuall faith , and had applied unto them the seal of the righteousness of faith . . some infants dying are saved , they are members of christs kingdom , therefore the blessing of the covenant , viz. regeneration and remission of sins through the blood of christ do also belong to them . to which i answer , blessings of the covenant are of sundry sorts , such as certainly accompanie salvation , regeneration , justification , adoption , or such as are common to reprobates , as to have teachers , example , and acquaintance with the godly , &c. both these may belong to them in present possession or assurance for the future : when they belong to them in present possession , it is either discernibly or indiscernibly . actual faith may be in the exercise or habit . infants of believers are elect or non-elect . it is true all those to whom the blessings of the covenant which accompany salvation belong in present possession discernibly , to them also belongs baptism : but so the minor is false , understood of all infants of believers : they belong not to all , but only to the elect , nor them certainly in present possession , much less discernibly during infancy : or if it be discernible , then they have actual faith , and so the minor is not true , that to infants of believing parents the saving blessings of the covenant do belong in possession discernibly before actual faith . if it be meant of the blessings of the covenant in future assurance only the major is false . nor is it true that the major is the very reason of the text act. . , . it is false that this is peters reasoning , therefore does the sign belong to peters hearers because the promise did first belong to them . for the term [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for ] does not infer a right which they might claim , but imports a motive to duties , and of these duties first to repentance , and then baptism : so that if from thence a right be concluded , they must conclude as well a right to repentance in the first place , and then to baptism . nor is it true that acts . , . the apostles discourse is reduced to m. lyfords form of argument , or saies as he saies , they that receive the same grace are capable , yea have right to the same sign , but infants are capable of the same grace , therefore of right they are to have the same sign , i. e. the sacrament of baptism . for although the major be granted of actual possession of the spirit and magnifying god , yet it is not true only of the promise thereof . but the minor [ infants are capable of the same grace ] alters the term , which is in the major thus [ they have received the same grace ] and so mr. lyford syllogism hath four terms . nor doth the apostle say , they that are capable of the same grace are to be baptized as well as we , but , none can forbid water to baptize them that had received the holy ghost , and so were manifestly actual believers as well as themselves , though they were of the gentiles : which when it appears in infants i should yield they are to be baptized , but not meerly because of the promise or capacity of grace , for the promise agrees to jews children elect , and capacity of grace to turks children , and therfore if either or both these did intitle to baptism , the infant-children of such might be baptized . and for his proofs of the minor , it is false , that to infants of believing parents the blessings and promises of the covenant do belong before actual faith , is proved by the express words of peter . for though he say , the promise is to your children , yet he doth not say , to you as believers , or to your children in infancy as the children of believers , nor before actual faith , yea the words [ as many as the lord our god shall call ] do require actual faith afore the possession of the blessings of the promise : nor is this any miserable shift : nor is it true , that those words are quite a new thing clearly relating to another sort of people , than his present hearers , and not to them , for that expression limits all the subjects , and is put after all joined by copulative particles , and therefore is to be conceived to limit all of them . nor is the speech true of any of them without that limitation . nor is it true which mr. lyford saies , that the words do not exegetically expound to which of his hearers children the promise did belong . for they are a manifest limitation excluding some and including others . and what he saith , that peter saies [ this promise does belong to them that are afar off , and their children , as well as to you and your children ] is manifestly false . but of this text i have spoken in the first part of this review , sect . . more fully . to his second proof , i say it is false , that the express words of our saviour ( of such is the kingdome of heaven ) prove his minor. for [ of such ] is not all one with [ infants of believing parents ] nor when it is said [ of such is the kingdome of heaven ] is it all one with this [ the blessings and promises of the covenant do belong to them afore actual faith ] the kingdom of heaven is not said to be of them , because their parents were believers , its uncertain whether they were so or no ; and if they were , another reason may and ought to be conceived of their interest in the kingdome of heaven , to wit christs special and effectual blessing : nor is it said the kingdom of heaven belongs to them in actual possession ; and if it were so meant , and yet they were not appointed to be baptized ( as it appears by the evangelists they were not ) it is a good presumption , christ would not have infants , notwithstanding their interest in the kingdom of heaven , to be baptized till they became believers by profession , and knew what their engagement is th●●eby . to his third , it is true , isaac and jacob were children of the promise before actual faith , yea before they were born , and therefore if the interest in the covenant had been a sufficient reason of circumcision , they should have been circumcised afore the eighth day , which because they were not , it is an argument , that not the covenant , but the command intitled them to circumcision . to the fourth , i never denied , that to some infants the covenant belongs ; nor that they are saved , regenerated in infancy , but i deny , that this is true of all infants of believers . for the very instances brought prove the contrary , that though isaac and jacob were children of the promise , yet ishmael and esau begotten by believing parents were not , who yet were to be circumcised : nor is any a childe of the promise because he is the child of a believer , but because he is elect of god. as for mr. lyfords answer to the objection in conference with him , it is indeed no answer . for he that objects that the blessings of the covenant , belong to elect infants , not to all , and therefore under that pretence all in general are not to be baptized , doth not by that speech grant , that baptism belongs to one infant , or to any because elect , but only shews the insufficiency of the adversaries proof for that practice : as for those who deny baptism to all because they are infants , i know not who they be , the reason why it is denyed them is not because they are infants , but because in infancy they appear not to be disciples , or believers in christ , who only by the command are appointed to be baptized ; and i agree with mr. lyford , that the sacraments do belong to the elect not as elect , but as visible members and professors ( and that upon this account simon magus was baptized , though mr. lyford is mistaken in saying peter baptized simon magus , which was done by philip ) whereby mr. lyford doth indeed overthrow his dispute . for if the sacraments belong to the elect as visible members and professors , then to all and onely visible members and professours . for what belongs to any quatenus ipsum as such , belongs to all and onely such universally and reciprocally , and so if he will stand to his own words , though children be in the covenant or elect , yet till they be visible members and professors they are not to be baptized , which doth plainly refute his own argument , viz. the major of his own syllogism : nor need we by our reason know whether a person be elected that we may baptize him , but whether he be a visible member and professor . sect . xiv . the arguments of mr. stalham , mr. brinsley , mr. hall , and a nameless author , from the covenant for infant-baptism , are examined . mr. stalham in the conference at terling page . argued thus , they who are included in the substance of the gospel covenant are not to be excluded from the seal of the covenant . but infants are included in the substance of the gospel covenant , and therefore not to be excluded from the seal of the gospel covenant . but in this argument the conclusion is not of baptism in particular , and so concludes not what was to be concluded , and sith circumcision according to him was a seal of the gospel covenant , it might be true of it and so granted . yet the major if universal is not true , no not of circumcision . for women and infant-males afore the eigth day were excluded from the seal of the covenant , though they were included in the substance of the gospel covenant , s his phrasiology is , nor hath he a word in all the conference to prove his maor ; and for his minor , setting aside his phrasifying , if this be his meaning ; all the infants of believers , or the infants of believers , in as much as they are their children , have the substance of the gospel-covenant , that is the promise , gen. . . as it is a gospel promise made to them , it is false and contrary to romans . , . nor is there any thing in the conference there brought that proves it . mr. john brinsley of paedobapt . page . . makes this his first and grand argument for the baptism of infants . if children of believing parents be within the covenant , then they may be baptized , but they are within the covenant , ergo. the major he takes as granted , though i deny it as being most false . the minor he would prove , . from acts . . where he makes the promise to be of remission of sins , but that belongs only to the penitent believer , and therefore proves not that it belongs to the infant of a believer , without repentance and faith . . in that they were in the old testament in the covenant . but he himself page . saith , all infants of believing parents are in the outward visible covenant . as for the covenant it self , to speak properly and strictly , it depends upon gods election . neither doth it belong to any but those who are elected . what juggling then doth he use to tell us that they are in covenant , and that the promise belongeth to them without any difference of elect and non-elect ; and p. . he saith , to whomsoever the covenant it self belongeth , to them belongeth this seal of the covenant . and so his minor must be , but the covenant it self belongs to infants of believers : and yet to say , the covenant it self , doth not belong to any but those who are elected , but the outward visible covenant to all . but what this outward visible covenant is , he tells us not . i cannot understand any other than circumcision , for that was the outward visible covenant in the old testament , and then his minor asserts infants are in covenant as they were in covenant in the old testament , that is , they are to be circumcised . besides what interfering is there in paedobaptists ? mr. stalham saith , they are included in the substance of the gospel covenant , mr ▪ brinsley saith , the covenant it self ( and then surely not the substance of the gospel covenant ) belongs not to any but elect , but the outward visible covenant , that is a new nothing , belongs to them all . and thus people are cheated by these doctors . . in that they are federally holy , . cor. . . but of it enough already in the first part of the review . so much for mr. brinsley , one of mr. halls champions . let us see what master thomas hall himself in his font guarded page . argues ; to whomsoever the covenant it self belongs , to them also belongs the seal of the covenant ; but the covenant belongs to believers and their children : ergo the seal of the covenant belongs to them also . answ. if mr. hall mean in the minor , that the covenant it self belongs to all the children of believers , then he contradicts mr. brinsley ( out of whom he saith in his epistle to him and mr. blake he gathered his weeds ) who saith , it belongs only to the elect , and if he mean it only of the elect , then he can conclude onely concerning the elect ; if he mean the outward visible covenant , than it is either circumcision , and then he asserts circumcision to belong still to infants ; or he means baptism , and then his minor and conclusion is all one , and his argument a meer inept tautology , unless he mean some other new nothing . and indeed this argument of mr. hall is like the rest concluding of the seal of the covenant indefinitely when he should conclude of baptism , using in the major and minor the term [ the covenant belongs ] but not explaining what covenant , to whom or how it belongs , using children for infants , so that there is nothing but equivocation in his speeches . and for his propositions in the sense they are commonly taken , neither major nor minor is true , nor is the major proved though he say it is clear . for though he that hath right to a temporal inheritance hath right likewise to the seal● and deeds that do convey that inheritance to him , yet in law it is not necessary that there be a sealing to each inheritour by himself . a man may have a deed sealed for him to another as a feoffee in trust , as is usual in the case of young orphans , to one man is conveyed the estate of many . so that besides the frivolousness of this conceit to make the term [ seal of the covenant ] of the essence of baptism , though it be but a metaphor not found in scripture , and thence , and the use in civil negotiations , to make a rule for the service of god ; yet were this kind of proof allowed , the major is not true , that to whomsoever the covenant it self belongs to them als● belongs the seal of the covenant , meaning it in their own persons . for a feoffee in trust may have the estates of many conveyed to him , and so the parent by this reason may be baptized for the child . and for the other reason it is also insufficient , abrahams posterity being in covenant receive the sign of circumcision the seal of the covenant , for the seal of the covenant is as large as the covenant it self . but neither is it true that the seal of the covenant in abrahams posterity was as large as the covenant it self , the women being in covenant and yet not to be sealed in their own persons : nor if it were true doth it prove the proposition . for if it were so by vertue of a particular command , then it follows not that if it were so then it must be so now without the like command . nor is the minor proved from gen. . , , . acts . , . for in the one is affirmed only that god will be a god to abraham and his seed , which is not all one with every believer and his seed ; in the other , whatever the promise be and howsoever peter meant it was to them and their children , yet it is not said to you believers , and to your children as the children of believers , for then he had spoken false they being not then believers , and therefore it proves not that the covenant belongs to believers and their children . this is enough to shew the vanity of mr. halls disputing . for the rest of his book , he being a gatherer out of others , as he saith , and in most things he should argue , referring us as an index to their writings , i think it best to rid my hands of him , and to deal with his authors he points to . there were sent to me by some friends these two following arguments in manuscript , as judged by some unanswerable . the first thus . what privilege the proselyted gentiles had who joined themselves to abrahams family in reference to their infant seed in the ordinance of circumcision , the like privilege the christian gentiles in the new testament have in reference to their infant-seed in the ordinance of baptism . but the proselyted gentiles had this privilege , that when they were circumcised their children were circumcised in their infancy . ergo the christian gentiles have the same privilege that their children should be baptized in their infancy . to which i answer , letting pass the exception to the quaternity of terms , and conceiving [ what privilege ] is put for [ whatsoever privilege universally ] without which the argument would be all of particulars , and so the syllogism naught ; i deny the major , and my reason is , because were it a privilege or not , what was done in the use of circumcision by vertue of an express command , is not to be done in the use of baptism , without the like command . if it were , the apostles did ill in not baptizing a whole nation old and young together , and we do ill in keeping away the young ones of believers baptized from the lords supper , when being circumcised they were not debarred from the passover . the other argument is in these words . to whom the outward visible covenant of god manifestly belongs , to them in the daies of the gospel , the initiating ordinance , viz. baptism belongs . but unto the infant-seed of believers the external visible covenant of god doth manifestly belong . ergo to the infant-seed of believers in the daies of the gospel the initiating ordinance , viz. baptism belongs . to which i answer , what outward visible covenant he means , except baptism , i know not . if he speak as mr. m. speaks , and some others , i have shewed in my apology sect . . that by it is meant the outward administration of the covenant , which is no other now but baptism . now if this be the meaning of the author , the major contains a trifling tautology , in effect this , they that are to be baptized , are to be baptized , and the minor and conclusion being all one , the minor is to be denied , and the argument hissed out of schools as a ridiculous foppery . sect . xv. the dispute of mr. john geree about the extent of the gospel covenant to prove thence infant-baptism , is examined , and it is shewed , that interest in the covenant did not intitle to circumcision , nor is it proved it doth now to baptism . but mr. john geree vindic. paedobap . p. . would seem to dispute more accurately and after a syllogism which doth but repeat the conclusion in a new phrase , he disputes thus . to whom the gospel covenant is extended in the churches of christians to them the sacrament of initiation appointed for that administration of the covenant doth belong . to children of believing christians , the gospel covenant is extended in the christian churches , ergo , to them the sacrament of initiation doth belong . to which i answer , mr. geree in this syllogism hath altered the term in his prosyllogism , it was in that [ the sacrament of initiation instituted for christian churches ] here it is [ the sacrament of initiation appointed for that administration of the covenant ] and wherein he supposeth ; . the sacrament appointed for that administration of the covenant . . the sacrament of initiation appointed for the administration of the covenant all one with the sacrament of initiation instituted for the christian churches , and from thence would derive a rule for baptism . but that being a phrase not used in scripture , nor perhaps deducible from it , and at best ambiguous , it serves for no proof , and therefore serves only to mislead those understandings which are apt to be caught with such chaff . that the phrase is not used in scripture , will not i suppose be denied , no where is baptism called either a sacrament or a sacrament of initiation , or said to be appointed for that administration of the covenant , nor is it deducible from thence . for there is no place that i find , that makes this the proper and immediate use of baptism to be the administration of the covenant , so that thereby either the making of the covenant , or the conferring or assuring to the baptized the benefits of the covenant should be the next end of it self intended therein . the immediate and proper use of it is to be a sign that the person baptized repents of his sins , and renounceth specially his gentile defilements , communion with satan , and engageth himself to be christs disciple ; yet i deny not but that by consequent in the manner of doing it by dipping or plunging under water , it minds us of christs death ▪ burial and rising again , and testifyeth our salvation by him , and so in a remote manner assures to us the benefits of the covenant of grace . but in this manner it is the administration of election as well as the covenant , and is an administration of the covenant only to elect persons , and true believers , for it assures salvation onely to them , not to all that are baptized , and therefore in this respect none but they can have title to it . so that if from hence , that baptism is the administration of the covenant , a title be derived for infants to be baptized , it can intitle none but those to whom it administers the covenant , which are only the elect or true believers . but the ambiguity of the expression is much more fallacious . for . when it is said , it is appointed for the administration of the covenant , the expressions sometimes are , as if it were the administration it self , calling it the new administration , as i shew in my apology , sect . . mr. geree here p. . baptism is a seal of a new administration , and then it is all one as to say the administration of the covenant is appointed for the administration of the covenant , which is either non-sense , or at least in●ptly spoken . . when they say [ it is the administration of the covenant ] do they mean the outward or inward covenant ? the latter i presume they will not say , for then baptism should be an administration of the things promised therin , regenerarion , remission of sins , and if so , then it administers them in a natural way , and so it should in manner of a natural agent regenerate , &c. which is to confer grace ex opere operato , or in a moral way ; but baptism can administer regeneration , remission of sins , &c. no other moral way but by assuring , or perswading , or the like , what ever way it be conceived it administers not the covenant to an infant in infancy , nor to any but the elect : now if it do not administer the covenant to any but such , then it is not baptism but to such , if baptism be in its nature the administration of the covenant of grace . if they mean baptism is the administration of the outward covenant , i am yet to learn what the outward covenant is , except they mean the outward administration , which is no other then baptism , as i shew apology s. . and what is this then but to say , that baptism is the administration , or appointed for the administration of baptism ? . when they say , it is the administration of the covenant , do they mean the covenant or promise of the baptized to god , or gods promise to the baptized ? if the former , then it is no more but this , that baptism is the administration , that is the signification of the baptized his engagement to be christs disciple , which is indeed the best sense of it , but then it will not fit them , for so it is not in infants , for they signifie no profession or engagement of theirs by it . if the later , then by baptism god doth promise man ; but that 's not true , his promise is in the word before baptism , or he signifies his promise formerly made , & this can derive no title to the persons to whom the promise is made , for the signifying that promise as past is as useful for others , either baptized or unbaptized , as the then baptized , and not at all of use or avail to infants , who cannot apprehend the signification ; or he assures the benefits of the covenant , and that can be only to elect or true believers ; or that he contains them by it , and so it gives grace , ex opere operato . . the covenant of grace is , i take it the covenant of saving grace , opposite to the covenant of works , the promise of justification by faith in contradistinction to the law , gal . . this covenant was made mixtly , gen. . , , , , . purely heb. . , , . they should tell us whether they mean the one , or the other , or both . the former they seem to mean when they make baptism to succeed circumcision , and to seal the same covenant that it did . but then baptism should not be the new administration but belong to the old . and if it seal that covenant then it assures the land of canaan , and greatness in it . but it seems they mean that it seals only the promise , i will be thy god and the god of thy seed , so mr. geree here , we find in the administration of the gospel covenant to abraham and his seed . but if so , . then it seals only a part of the covenant that circumcision did , and so succeeds not in it's use , nor is there a reason given , but their own conceit , why it should seal one part , and not another . . if it seal or administer the gospel-covenant , then it administers not this promise [ that god will be a god to a believer , and his natural seed as such ] for that is neither gospel nor at all to be found , gen. . . . in that promise was foretold christ to come of abraham , and this was gospel gal. . . but this is not administred by baptism , which signifies christ already come . . in the spiritual sense it was made to abrahams seed by faith , gal. . . rom. . , . but they are only the elect ; rom. . , . and then it is an administration of that gospel covenant onely to elect persons , and true believers . . there 's ambiguity also in the term [ the gospel covenant is extended ] the gospel covenant is , the just shall live by faith , that god will be a god to abrahams seed by faith . but mr. geree imagines a gospel covenant , which is but a fiction , that god hath promised to be a god to the natural posterity of every believing gentile . . for the extent of it how it is extended is ambiguous . for he cannot say it is extended in respect of the gospel promise of righteousness and life to all the children of believers , it was not extended ishmael to and esau. therefore he acknowledgeth it to be extended in the reality of it onely to the elect , onely it is to be charitably presumed that they are elect , and therefore they are to be taken for persons in covenant till they discover the contrary . but he shews no rule of scripture for such a construction of the promise : sure such a construction was unknown to paul , rom. . , , . when he expounded that very promise , gen. . . nor doth such a construction agree with the words , sith when god saith , i will be a god to thee and thy seed , the meaning according to m. geree should then be [ i will be a god to thee , that is , every believer , and to thy seed , that is every believers natural seed which are elect in reality , and to those that are not elect in charitable presumption of the minister of baptism , till comming to years they discover the contrary ] now what a non-sence exposition is this , to expound [ thee ] meant of abraham by [ every believing gentile ] and by [ thy seed ] which is meant of abrahams seed onely either natural or spiritual by faith to understand [ every believers natural seed ] and when it is said , god will be a god to them , that he will be a god only to some in reality , which is to make god to promise what he doth not perform , and to others , that men shall think he will be a god to them , which would be too poor a matter to be meant in that expression , and therein god should not promise what he will be or do , but what men shall think , which would be false , for it is not made good , or that they may charitably so presume of them , but in this sense it is not a promise at all , but a meer permission to men to think charitably of them , which i suppose they are as well bound to do of unbelievers children till they discover the contrary , and so no privilege to the believers children . and yet this too must be limitted to a certain time till they come to years and discover the contrary , and therefore by seed must be understood onely the infant-seed , when they came to years , there 's neither promise nor permission for men to think so charitably of them . and yet herein there is nothing but abuse of terms . for charitable presumption must have some ground , which is to be from some thing we perceive done to judge well of what we see not according to the rule cor. . . charity believeth all things , but in infants acts there 's nothing that may be such a ground , but to the contrary they opposing their baptism by their crying , &c. if it be said , the promise is a ground , i answer , mr. geree confesseth the promise is not in reality but to the elect , nor to the elect till they believe , and therefore there is no ground from the promise till it be known the persons be elect or believers . but it will be said , we know nothing to the contrary . to which i reply , nor do we know any thing to the contrary , but that unbelieving jews children are elect , and in the covenant , and yet it s not charitably presumed of them , so as to count them in the covenant , and to judge them admissible to baptism . i think sith we perceive nothing of believers infants acts that may distinguish them from unbelievers , that we should rather suspend our thoughts of gods election and covenant to them till they shew of what spirit they are , which is meet for an administrator of baptism , who as a wise steward should give to every one his portion in due season , luke . . rather then have such a fond imagination of what god hath concealed . and if it be true which mr. geree saith in his vindic. vindic. p. . that many of the assembly intended the words in the directory for baptism [ the promise is made to believers and their seed ] in master gerees sense , they have reason to be ashamed that they have so much abused the world with such a toy . yea but have they not a promise on which to ground this charitable presumption ? i answer , surely the jews have a more express promise , ro. . , . for their posterity then any believer now living hath for his children , and therefore if that be all the ground of baptizing believers infants , there 's a like ground for baptizing jews infants though parents be unbelieving , and they have wrong that it is not done , where it may . but shall we make no difference between the children of believers and unbelievers ? i answer , we are to conceive with a judgement of probability for the present that they are elect , and with a quieting hope for the future that they will be believers . . because of gods general indefinite promises . . because by reason of the means of the knowledge of the gospel which they have in their education , and living where the gospel is taught , they are in a nearer possibility then others to be believers . . because experience shews that god often doth continue godliness in religious families , though it often fall out otherwise . but that such an extension of the gospel-covenant as mr. geree makes to the children of believing christians , should entitle to baptism , is without all rule . and to his syllogism , though it might be denied in respect of the form , by reason of the ambiguity of terms ; yet i answer , by denying the major in his sense , which i conceive is this , they to whom the gospel covenant is extended according to the charitable presumption of the minister without the persons shewing by any act that he is in covenant , to them the sacrament of initiation to wit baptism doth belong , and shall examine his proof both of major and minor. the major , saith he , i prove by that of peter acts . . when they had received the holy ghost , which was but an evidence of gods receiving them into the gospel covenant , peter saith , can any forbid water that these should not be baptized , who are in covenant with god as well as we ? they have the word or promise , which is the greater ; who can inhibite the sign which is the less ? to this i answer , the proof rests on this , that the allegation of peter that they had received the holy ghost , was brought for an evidence that god had received them into the gospel covenant , and so it may be said to the same purpose , who can forbid water that these should not be baptized who are in covenant with god as well as we ? but this is false . for their receiving the holy ghost is brought not to prove only that god had made his covenant of grace to them , but to prove that they were actual believers , as their works did shew upon hearing the word of faith , for saith he v. . they heard them speak with tongues and magnify god , & ch . . . if god hath given them the like gift as unto us that believe on the lord j●sus christ , who was i that i could forbid god ? and v. . it is said , when they heard these things they held their peace and glorifyed god , saying , then hath god also granted to the gentiles repentance unto life . whence it appears that they were penitent believers , and this is proved by their acts ; and therefore to be admitted to baptism , and not barely because the gospel covenant was extended to them , much less because the gospel covenant was extended to some of that sort , and to those particular persons onely upon a charitable presumption , that gods promise did belong to them for the future without any shew of repentance or faith at the present . it is false that we may say , that when by any other principle in scripture any are demonstrated to be in the gospel covenant , who can forbid water that these should not be baptized , who are in covenant with god as well as we ? for though god should reveal that this or that person were elect , and that his covenant did belong to him for the future , yet he were not to be baptized , till god revealed that he were a believer or disciple . for if so , than if god did reveal concerning any , as he did of isaac and jacob , that he were a child of the promise , though yet unborn in the mothers womb , he were to be baptized , which is absurd . none are to be baptized afore born , therefore any principle whatsoever in scripture demonstrating a person to be in the gospel covenant is not sufficient to intitle to baptism , much less such an uncertain doubtful guess , called charitable presumption , that he is in the covenant , as is without any particular declaration of scripture , or other revelation from god concerning the person , or any shew of his that he is gods child , which yet mr geree makes a sufficient warrant to baptize , nor is his reason of any force , for we might in like manner say , they have the election of god , which is the greater , who can inhibit the sign which is the less ? it is not whether that which they have is greater , much less that which is conjectured , or hoped they have , which is the rule to baptize , but the manifest having of that qualification of faith or discipleship , which is prerequired to baptism according to the institution and primitive practice of it . but mr. geree hath more to prove his major . besides , saith he , we find in the administration of the gospel covenant to abraham and his seed , whom god had thereby separated then to be his church , and evidenced it by an outward seal : there was so near a relation between the covenant and circumcision the sacrament of initiation , whereby men were externally separated from the world , that circumcision was called the covenant , and the token of the covenant , gen. . , . to shew us how the seal did follow the covenant ; and therefore when any were aggregated into the jewish church and taken into the communion of the covenant made with abraham , they were initiated into that administration of the covenant by the sacrament of circumcision . to which i answer , letting pass his phraseology , this reason goes upon these suppositions . . that by circumcision god had administred his covenant to abraham and his seed , and separated them to be his church , and evidenced it by circumcision , and that the seal did follow the covenant , when any were taken into covenant they were circumcised , and therefore it must be so in baptism but if he mean that to as many as god appointed to be circumcised he administred the covenant of grace ( which sense alone serves his turn ) it is not true . ishmael was circumcised , yet the covenant not administred to him , nor he separated to be of his church , not this evidenced by an outward seal , but the contrary declared concerning him afore his circumcision , gen. . , , , . and he in the event cast out , and so the seal did not follow so the covenant , but that it was imparted to them to whom the covenant was not made , and not imparted to them to whom it did belong , as v. g to the females , nor were the pros●lytes all taken into communion of the covenant made with abraham , though they were taken into the communion of the policy of israel : nor 〈◊〉 the calling circumcision the covenant or a token of the covenant ( which are all one ) gen. . , . prove that all that were circumcised had the covenant made to them : but this that circumcision was a memorial that such a covenant was made with abraham , and god would perform it . . that it must be in baptism as it was in circumcision . but for proof of that there 's not a word brought by mr. g. and what others bring is examined in its place . m. g. goes on thus . now for your exceptions against the connexion which we put between the gospel-covenant , and the sacrament of initiation annext to it , in any administration they will cleerly be wiped away ; for what though ( as you say ) the covenant made with abraham were not a pure gospel covenant , but had some external additaments ? yet a gospel covenant it was , and for substance the same with ours gal. . . the gospel was preached before to abraham ; and as circumcision was the seal of initiation under that administration ; so is baptism under the christian administration ; neither is the gospel covenant now so pure as to exclude all temporal promises . for godliness even under the gosspel , hath the promises of this life , and that which is to come , tim. . . answ. the distinction of a pure and a mixt covenant was brought in by me to shew that paedobaptists do but mislead people when in their writings and sermons they express themselves as if they would have men conceive that the covenant with abraham , gen. . is all one with the covenant of grace , and so that there is the same reason of baptizing infants because of the gospel covenant , as there was of circumcising infants , because of the covenant made with abraham , gen. . now how doth mr. geree wipe this away ? he tells his reader , that i say , the covenant made with abraham was not a pure gospel covenant , but had some external additaments . but neither do i so speak in my exercit. pag. . nor exam. part . . s. . nor any where else i know . i say the promises were mixt exercit. pag. . exam. part . . s. . now promises are not external additaments to the covenant , but integral parts , the covenant being nothing but a promise , or an aggregate of promises : yea i prove that the peculiar promise to abrahams natural posterity inheriting of the land of canaan , &c. is frequently called by the name of the covenant , psal. . , , , . nehem. . , &c. and for what he saith , that the covenant made with abraham was a gospel covenant ; this is true according to the more infolded and hidden sense of the spirit , but not according to the outward face and obvious construction of the words , which in the first meaning spake of things proper to abrahams natural posterity , though the holy ghost had a further aim in those expressions . and whereas , he saith , the covenant made with abraham was for substance the same with ours , gal. . . though that promise mentioned gal. . . be no in the covenant gen. . to which circumcision was annexed , but that gent . . and the term [ substance ] be ambiguous , yet i grant the covenant made with abraham according to those gospel promises , which in the hidden meaning declared justification by faith , as the new covenant sealed with christs blood doth , is the same in substance , meaning by it , the intent , purport and meaning of the holy ghost , though not in words or expressions ; yet i deny that it was every way or in every respect in substance the same . for the promise , according to that sense in which they contain domestique or civil promises proper to abrahams natural posterity were of the substance of the covenant , and for the confirming of them , circumcision was instituted of god , as well as for them in priority of order before the assuring of those evangelical benefits . and for what mr. geree saith , that the gospel is not so pure now as to exclude all temporal promises , it is true ; yet the gospel doth not promise as the covenan● gen. . the inheritance of the land of canaan with rest , plenty , prosperity and greatness therein , but on the contrary such temporal blessings as are with persecution mark . . and do rather consist in inward comfort and content than in outward enjoyment of any earthly commodity : which proves that the gospel promise for temporal things is clean different from that made to abraham gen. . concerning temporal benefits to his posterity . mr. geree addes . neither are the differences mentioned by you ( page . of your exercit. or elsewhere ) to be between circumcision and baptism any whit material to put a difference between the parties to be sealed by them in reference to our present controversy ; sith notwithstanding these differences they agree in this main general ; that the one was the sacrament of initiation to all that were to be sealed under one administration of the covenant , the other in the other , which is enough to my purpose . to which i say , the disparities between circumcision and baptism , are brought by me to invalidate the argument made by paedobaptists to prove the succession of the one , into the place , room and use of the other , from the parities between them , which allegation to that end is made good before against mr. church , sect . . those differences which i allege exercit. p. . tend to demonstrate that there is not the same reason of circumcision and baptism in signing the evangelical covenant , nor may there be an argument drawn from the administration of the one to the like administring of the other : which differences are very material to that end the different end and use of a thing , being the most apt reason for altering the application of it , as mr. rutherford , divine right of church government , ch . q. . page , , . answering era●tus , saith of the sea , cloud , mannah , water , because they had a mixt use , they were appointed to all , yet it follows not now the sacrament of the lords supper must be given to wicked men . so by the very same reason , sith circumcision had a mixt use to signify political as well as evangelical promises , to confirm the promise of christ to come , and did belong to the church , not oecumenical , but oeconomical or national , which baptism did not , therefore circumcision might belong to infants , and yet not baptism . and letting pass his phrase of administration of the covenant , of which is enough said before , though the agreement , which he calls , the main general , be yielded him ; that they are both sacraments of initiation , yet unless the same special rule of command , or example primitive be brought for the one as the other , infant-baptism cannot be proved from infant-circumcision . mr. geree further tells me . but you add further p. . of your exercit. that some were circumcised to whom no promise in the covenant made with abraham did belong ; as ishmael , of whom god had said his covenant was not to be established with him . i answer , it is said indeed gen. . . my covenant will i establish with isaac . but by covenant there is not meant that covenant , which we stand in to god , in regard of our persons , for our own personal benefit : but the covenant of special prerogative , that christ should come of , and the church should remain in his posterity . therefore notwithstanding that exception , ishmael when circumcised , might be , and was a member of the visible church in abrahams family , and in regard of his person within the external administration of the covenant with abraham , and so in the judgement of charity no alien from the covenant of grace , but under it . this i might confirm by the opinion of some hebrew doctors , wherein they are followed by many , that the petition of abraham for ishmael gen. . . was not onely for natural , but for spiritual blessings , and what he begged god granted , v. . but i clear it thus ; god establisht his covenant with abraham and isaac , not with melchisedeck nor lot ; shall we therefore expunge them out of the covenant of grace ? how absurd were that ? we only see their posterity enjoied not that privilege which god vouchsafed abraham in isaac and his seed . and therefore no more can be truly or rationally gathered from that place of genesi touching ishmael . answ. that which in my exercit. page . i gathered from the instances of ishmael , esau , the strangers and others of abrahams house their circumcision , and the non-circumcision of females , males under eight daies old , melchisedeck , lot , job , the non-admission to baptism of circumcised jews in covenant till they professed repentance and faith in christ were . that the right to evangelical promises , was not the adequate reason of circumcising these or those , but gods precept , as is exprest gen. . . gen. . . . that those terms are not convertible [ federate and to be signed ] which overthrows the chief hypotheses , upon which the paedobaptists argument from infant-circumcision for infant-baptism rests . for they all conclude thus , the reason why infants were circumcised , was that they were in covenant , therefore by like reason infants being in covenant should be baptized . now if the reason of infants being circumcised , were not their being in covenant , but only the command , then there is not a like reason for infant-baptism , though they were in the covenant , unless there were the like command . now let us see what mr. geree saith to my first i●stance of ishmael . i alleged that ishmael was circumcised , though no promise in the covenant made with abraham , did belong to him , and that abraham knew , therefore the reason of his circumcision ( and the same is the reason of others ) was not his being in covenant , but only gods command to abraham . the antecedent is proved from the words gen. . . which are exclusive . and besides i alleged rom. . , , , . gal. . , . where expresly ishmael is denied to be a child of the promise , or to be born after the promise . and i might have added heb. . . where isaac and jacob are distinguishingly reckoned as heirs of the same promise with abraham , not ishmael and esau. now what saith mr. geree to this ? he ●aith , the covenant there is not meant that covenant which we stand in to god in regard of our persons for our own personal benefit : but the covenant of special prerogative to isaac , that christ should come of , and the church should remain in his posterity . but this is false , . for it was that covenant that made isaac heir of the promise , which the apostle rom. . , , . reckons as much as to be an elect person , it was the same covenant which was mentioned v. , , , , , . which mr. geree , and other paedobaptists call the covenant of grace , and usually make the interest in it the reason of circumcision , and was sealed by it , and that it was the same covenant is apparent from v. . now then it was a covenant of personal benefit , if it derive grace to the person , or any other personal benefit . if it were only the covenant containing the special prerogative mentioned , then it was not the covenant sealed to any but isaac , not to any of the rest of abrahams house that were circumcised . . it is insufficient . for it shews not that to ishmael any promise , either evangelical or political in the covenant made with abraham , did belong , though he were circumcised , which he should have done , if he would have answered to the objection , and have vindicated his argument from it : as for his inference , therefore notwithstanding that exception , ishmael when circumcised might be , and was a member of the visible church in abrahams family and in regard of his person , within the external administration of the covenant with abraham , and so in the judgement of charity no alien from the covenant of grace , but under it . i answer . i know not what it is to be under the external administration of the covenant with abraham , except it be to be circumcised ; and therefore i count this speech , that ishmael when circumcised might be within the external administration of the covenant with abraham , to be an inept tautology , as if he had said , ishmael when circumcised might be circumcised . but were his speaking right , yet it is impertinent . for the thing he should have shewed was not , that ishmael notwithstanding that exception was a visible church-member , within the external administration of the covenant with abraham , or in the judgement of charity no alien from the covenant of grace , but that any of the promises in the covenant made with abraham gen. . did belong to him , and so that he was circumcised because of his interest in the covenant . yet how abraham could in judgement of charity judge him no alien from the covenant of grace , but under it , whom god so plainly excepted out of that covenant , which paedobaptists themselves take to be the covenant of grace , i see not . it is true that god heard the petition of abraham for ishmael gen. . . but that god granted him spiritual blessings doth not appear , but the contrary v. . where the blessings granted upon abrahams petition for him are recited . however it is clear that he did exempt him from the covenant v. . and therefore he was not circumcised by vertue of his interest in the covenant , nor did his circumcision seal that interest . as for what mr. geree saith , no more can be truly gathered from thence then what may be said of melchisedec , or lot , it is not true . for though it s not said expressely that god established his covenant with them , yet they are reckoned among the righteous ; and so in the covenant of grace . but for ishmael when abraham begged for him , god answers how far he would grant for him , and then addes adversatively . but my covenant will i establish with isaac , that is not with ishmael , which can be no other then the covenant before mentioned , v. , , , , , . which thing was further manifested by gods ratifying sarahs desire of ishmaels election gen. . , . where he is excluded from abrahams seed , from which the apostle argueth ishmael not to have been a child of the promise , nor elect , nor born after the spirit ; but reprobate , a persecutor , born after the flesh . and therefore in my exercit. i cited those texts , which mr. geree did ill to omit , sith they served for my purpose to prove that ishmael had no part in the covenant made with abraham . to the instance of esau , mr. geree tels me , the case of esau was but as that of ishmael , and others that were of israel , but were not israel : they were under the external administration of the covenant , though not really within the covenant of grace . this distinction you your self acknowledge in the fourscore and sixteenth page of your answer , when you say , it is one thing to be under the outward administration , another thing to be under the covenant of grace . it s true these are distinct , but those that are under the outward administration are to be reputed under the covenant of grace , and thence were to be sealed ; thus was it with esau ; for that sentence , the elder shall serve the younger , gen. . . could sound no higher in isaac's apprehension then that difference which was put between ishmael and isaac . to which i reply , if ishmael were not really within the covenant of grace then mr. geree yields what i proved before , that the promise of the covenant of grace did not belong to him ; and if it were so , then ishmael and esau were circumcised , though no promise in the covenant gen. . , , , , , . did belong to them , and because this was revealed to abraham and isaac they were not reputed under the covenant of grace and thence to be sealed as mr. geree saith . nor is it likely but isaac did apprehend concerning esau by the oracle gen. . . that none of the promises in the covenant made with abraham , gen. . , , , , , . did belong to him . however god appointing circumcision to these to whom he intended no interest in the covenant it follows , he made not interest in the covenant the adequate reason of each persons circumcision , but his own institution . to the instance of strangers in abrahams family , he answers ; by gods own testimony abraham would keep none in his family , but such as were outwardly conformable to the waies of god , gen. . . and so were in the state of proselytes and interessed in the gospel covenant . answ. whether abraham did or might keep any infidel in his family was considered by me in the first part of this review , s. . but for the text , gen. . . it doth not testify , that abraham would keep none in his family , but such as were outwardly conformable to gods waies , but that he would command them to keep gods waies , and shall keep the way of jehovah ; but this being spoken indefinitely is equipollent onely to a particular , as appears in ishmael and esau and others . but were this granted they were so conformable and were so proselytes and were in some sort interessed in the benefit of the gospel covenant , yet it follows not that any promise in that covenant did belong to them , much less that such interest was the reason of their being circumcised . as for mr. gs. useful observation , that circumcision was not annext to the covenant only because it was a mixt covenant , sith it was appliable to the proselyte gentiles , and their seed , that were not onely without , but uncapable of interest in the land of canaan ; i know not what use there is of it for his purpose ; it goes upon a mistake that circumcision was to be to none , but who had interest in the covenant gen. . which i have refuted . the gentile proselytes were to be circumcised because of the command , though it were not known that each , or any proselyte , or his seed , had interest in the covenant . as for mr. gs. reason of his obsevation , it should seem by it he meant otherwise than he expressed , to wit , circumcision was not annext to the covenant only because of the temporal promises , which i grant , and yet hold the covenant , gen. . , , , , . a mixt covenant , and that persons were to be circumcised to whom no promise in the covenant made with abraham did belong . mr. g. go●s on . to the other part of my exception against the connexion between the seal and covenant , as they speak , that many were not to be circumcised , to whom all or most of the promises of the covenant did belong , as the females comming from abraham , he saith . for females we answer , that god under that administration was pleased ( in reference to some things pointed at by the seal ) to appoint a sign of which women were not capable ; so were they particularly excluded from being sealed with the sacrament of initiation under that administration . to which i reply , . that women are not capable of circumcision is contradicted by those that say , that at this day in some parts of the world women are circumcised . aethiopes christiani mares octavo ab ortu die circumcidunt , & feminis etiam aliquid amputatur , ut abrahami et aliorum sanctorum patrum exemplo ardentius in similis sanctitatis studium incitentur . quarto deinde a circumcisione die mares , octavo autem foeminae salutaribus aquis expiantur , & eucharistiam ●o die infantes initiati in mica panis assumunt . osorius lib. . rerum ab emmanuele gest . zuinger . theat . vit . hum. vol. . l . tit . bapt . pag. . osiander epit. hist. eccl. cent. . l. . c. . anno christi . jacobitae baptismo & ciriumcisione utuntur circumcidentes masculos & femellas . hornbeck . append. ad disp . de bap . ve . thes . . solebant aethiopes cum baptismo etiam circumcidere baptizatum , mas an femina esset circumcidebatur . doctor field of the church . book chap. . speaking of the jacobites in syria , sixtly , they use circumcision even of both sexes , and of the habassines , they are also circumcised both male and female . the same hath heylin in his geography , describing syria and ethiopia , and before him ( if my memory deceive me not ) brerewood in his enquiry of religions . so that it is but a just of mr. blake , that women could no more be circumcised than barb'd , if these authors be of any credit . but were it true that women were not circumcised because uncapable , yet would god doubtless have appointed such a sign as they were capable of , if it were true that all that were in covenant must be signed . but if it be true which mr. g. confesseth , that the females , though in covenant were particularly excluded from being sealed with the sacrament of initiation under that administration , then the connexion between the seal initial and the covenant , is not proved from circumcision . and as for that he saies , that in reference to some things pointed at by the seal ▪ god under that administration was pleased to appoint a sign of which women were not capable ; it is a plain confession , that god appointed circumcision for an end not common to believers at all times , or to such as were in the covenant of grace , but proper to the posterity of abraham ; and therefore though the covenant were granted to be the reason of circumcision , yet it follows not all must be baptized barely from the covenant of grace , because they were circumcised by reason of interest in it , sith this was not true , and as mr. geree confesseth , circumcision was appointed in reference to some things proper to that time . but he hopes to salve the matter thus : so , actually they were not circumcised , yet were they reputed as circumcised , as appears both by the place alleged by mr. m. exod. . . and where the house of israel is said to be circumcised , and also by that of samsons parents , being displeased that he should take a wife of the uncircumcised philistines judges . . for unless the israelitish women were reputedly circumcised in the males , circumcision could make no difference between wife and wife ; yea our saviour should be born of the uncircumcised . to which i answer : to be reputed as circumcised , may be understood thus , they were mentioned as circumcised , and this sense is false ; for then it should be an errour , sith they were not circumcised : nor is in the text exod. . . any thing to that purpose ; for the speech , no uncircumcised person shall eat the passeover , is to be limitted by the matter , of them that ought to be circumcised , and that judge . . of taking a wife of or from the philistines uncircumcised , as if thereby were intimated that an israelitess woman was reputed as circumcised , or that our saviour should be born of the uncircumcised , if women were not reputed as uncircumcised , proves it not . for the terms [ ciecumcised and uncircumcised ] are spoken of the people , who are said to be circumcised from the chief part , not from all parts . i remember not where the whole house of israel is said to be circumcised , but to be uncircumcised in heart , jeremy . . yet were there such a place , it must be understood of all that were to be circumcised . or else the meaning is , they were reputed as circumcised , that is , they were admitted to the passeover if their males were circumcised , notwithstanding they were not in their proper persons circumcised , which sense is true . but then it serves not the turn to avoid the force of the instance brought to shew there is not a necessary connexion between interest in the covenant , and the persons right to the initial seal , in his own person , which mr. g : must prove to make good his major . for he would have infant-females actually baptized , because in covenant ; and his proof is , they that were in covenant were circumcised , which must be meant of all in covenant , and of actual circumcision in their own persons , or else it can prove but a particular of some , and their virtual baptism , to wit , female infants . but mr. g. thinks to prevent this objection . and whereas you object , that you may as well say , that children are virtually baptized in their parents , i deny it , because you have not the like proof for the one , as we have for the other . besides women that are said to be virtually and reputatively circumcised in the males , were not actually to be circumcised at all : they were excluded , which you do not , nor cannot say of infants ; when they are grown up you confess they may and ought to be baptized . answ. that which i said , was only by way of inference upon paedobaptists suppositions ; if virtual circumcision were all that might be claimed by virtue of the covenant it would not help paedobaptists who would from the covenant prove a right of actual circumcision to infants , whereas by their own confession it onely proves necessarily a virtual ; and if so , how can it prove necessarily by their own principles any more than a virtual baptizing of infants ? the same medium that doth not prove as necessary actual circumcision in the one , cannot prove as necessary actual baptism in the other . now the force of this objection is not at all weakned by his reply . for my words were not concerning the fitness of the expression , that the one was as fit as the other , but that i might grant a virtual baptism to infants without detriment to my cause , if they assert no more from the covenant , but a virtual circumcision . but had i said [ you may as well say ] ( which yet i find not in my writings , but , we might grant , we may say examen page . by like , perhaps greater reason it may be said exercit. p. . ) the speech might have been right notwithstanding mr. gerees exceptions , for there is no more proof for the use of this speech , that females may be said to be virtually circumcised in the males , then for this , infants may be said to be virtually baptized in their parents , neither being used in scripture , and reason being as much for the one as the other . and though those that were infants when grown , being believers , are to be baptized , yet infants during their infancy are by more full evidence excluded from actual baptism , then females were from actual circumcision . mr. g. proceeds thus . for your second instance of infants dying afore they were eight daies old ; i answer that they were particularly tyed to that day , whether for the theological reason levit. . , . or for the physical reason , that god would not suffer an incision to be made on the flesh of a tender infant ; or till the seventh , that is ▪ the critical day was over ; or whether to typifie the resurrection , we cannot determine ; but till that day they were expresly excluded ; yet therefore it remains clear that all that were within that administration of the covenant , that were not expresly excluded , were circumcised , which is enough for my purpose . and so unless you can bring a rule that no infant of christians shall have the sacrament of initiation till years or so , that instance of infants not being circumcised dying before the . day , is too short to reach up . answ. it is not enough for mr. gs. purpose , which was to prove , the seal did follow the covenant , and when any were aggregated into the jewish church and taken into the communion of the covenant made with abraham they were initiated into that administration of the covenant by the sacrament of circumcision , unless he can prove that all that were in covenant , and in the jewish church were circumcised . but his own grant , that some in the covenant , and jewish church , as females and males under eight daies old , were expresly excluded , overthrows his own position , and is enough for my purpose to prove , that all in the covenant were not circumcised . the reason why males afore the eighth day were not circumcised , whatever it were , is nothing for mr. gs. advantage , but against him , sith it doth more fully shew that god would not have them circumcised . nor need i bring a rule that no infant of christians shall have the sacrament of initiation till eighteen years , or so , which goes upon his mistake , as if the instance i gave were as a proof of the time of baptism , it being brought only to shew a reason of my denial of his assertion , that the seal did follow the covenant . it is enough for me , that i prove ( as i have done in the second part of the review s. . &c. ) that the rule is , that persons are not to be baptized till they be disciples or believers , and that infants are not such . mr. g. addes . your third instances are of adam , abel , noah page . of your answer , and melchisedec , lot , job , pag. . exercit. i answer either those were before the administration begun with abraham , and so before the institution of seals , or such of them that were with or after him , either they join not themselves to that administration , and so were not to be sealed no more then the proselytes of the gate , or if they did unite to the church in abrahams family , then it is apparent they might lay claim to circumcision , as other proselytes did . and so indeed it is averred of iob , that he was circumcised , by the author of the book of true circumcision ▪ which is ascrrbed to hierom , cited by iunius in his animadversion on bellarmine , controv. . l. . cap. . not. . answ. master geree doth make shew of answering my allegation , but doth indeed confirm my proof , that sith abel , noah , melchisedec , lot , and many proselytes of the gate were in the covenant of grace , yet had not any initial sign or seal , as m. geree calls it , to seal the covenant , and some sealed after an initial seal was instituted though in the covenant of grace , therefore there is not such a connexion between the covenant , and the initial seal , that therefore a man must have the seal initial because he is in the covenant of grace , and that it was not from interest in the covenant of grace , that persons were circumcised , but gods special command upon such reasons as seemed best to him , but is not a reason for us to imitate in another ordinance without the like command . if one author conceive iob was circumcised , many do conceive otherwise , and there are more probable reasons he was not ; sith there 's no mention of his circumcision , or his observing any of the rites of the law , or of any acquaintance he had with israel , or any thing else that might induce us to believe he had communion with the policy of israel . master geree saith further ; and wheras you say , lastly , that the jews comprehended in covenant and circumcised could not be baptized without faith and repentance . i answer , the reason is evident ; because baptism was a seal of a new administration ; and therefore they must join to that administration of the covenant as well as be in covenant , before they could be baptized . answ. i am beholding to mr. geree , who as before had given the reason why melchisedeck , lot , iob , were not circumcised , though in covenant because of their not joining themselves to that administration , or their not uniting to the church in abrahams family : so here again he doth not only grant what i allege , but gives a reason of it also , and such as quite overthrows his dispute . for if it were true that the jews that were in covenant were not to be ●aptiz●d without faith and repentance , then being in covenant is not a sufficient reason of an infants being baptized without faith and repentance , and if baptism were a seal of a new administration , then it must have a new rule , and so the old rule of circumcision is no direction to us about baptism , if lot , the proselytes of the gate , though in covenant , were not to be circumcised without joining to that administration , or the church in abrahams family , then right to circumcision was not from interest in the covenant common to all believers , but something proper to that church-state , or administration , which is now voided : if therefore the jews in covenant and circumcised must profess repentance and faith afore they were baptized , because they must join to the new administration of the covenant , then according to mr. gerees own confession , according to the new administration of the covenant , faith and repentance are required of them that join to that administration of the covenant . and therefore whereas mr. geree addes , we may therefore conclude , that those that are under the gospel-covenant in any administration of it , have right to the seal of initiation under that administration ; unless they be particularly excluded by god himself , and so the major is firmly proved ; i may truly say , it is firmly proved that they that are under the gospel-covenant in any administration of it , yet have not right to the seal of initiation under that administration , barely from the covenant without a command , and that god himself hath excluded infants from baptism by mr. gerees own concession , without faith and repentance , and that in all this arguing mr. g. hath dictated much and proved nothing . let 's see whether he speed better about proving the minor. sect . xvi . that the gospel-covenant is not extended to infants of believers , as such . now the minor , saith he , that children are under the gospel-covenant in the christian administration of it , that we prove by the scriptures mentioned , as first , gen. . . i will establish my covenant between me and thee , and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant to be a god unto thee and thy seed after thee . to comprehend the meaning of this place we are to consider . what the privilege is that is here promised : . what the extent of it is . first for the privilege it self , as calvin hath well observed by vertue of this promise , the church was settled in abrahams family , and it was separated from the rest of the world , as light from darkness . and the people of israel ( abrahams posterity ) was the house and sheepfold of god ; and other nations like wild beasts ranging about without in the wilderness of the world. and by this privilege the dignity of adoption-belonged to all the israelites in common , rom. . . to whom pertaineth the adoption . and so , though by nature they were no better than others ; yet by reason of this promise they had a birth-privilege , whereby they were separated from others , which is apparently held forth , gal. . . we who are jews by nature , not sinners of the gentiles ; as mr. blake hath truly observed ; and sith you grant the jews a birth-privilege , as p. . and p. . of your answer , you needed not have quarrelled with this plain proof . but now among those that had this outward privilege of common adoption ( to be reputed children when the gentiles were reputed as dogs , matth. . . ) there were some that were separated by the secret election of god , and really made partakers of sanctifying and saving grace , and so not only adopted outwardly , and reputatively , but also really ; in comparison of whom the other israelites are sometimes spoken of , as no sons of abraham , rom. . , . though externally they were the children of the kingdom , and in reference to the gentiles they are so stiled , matthew . , . so then the privilege is , that he would be a god to all in regard of external denomination , and external privileges of a church , and to the elect in regard of spiritual adoption , grace and glory . answ. it is true , i granted page . of my examen , that the jews had a birth-privilege ; yet denyed it to be from the covenant of grace according to the substance of it , as mr. m. speaks , but that special love god bare to abrahams posterity . nor do i deny that the people of israel , till broken off , were in common estimation gods children , children of the kingdom , nor dogs , nor unclean as the gentiles , and that these titles did belong to all by external denomination , really to the elect . nor do i much gainsay that by vertue of the promise , i will be a god to the seed of abraham , the church was settled in abrahams family , though it doth not appear to me that the apostle did so expound this promise , but expresly contradistinguisheth the children of the promise , to the children of the flesh , rom. . . and his doctrine there is plain , that the elect are they only to whom the promise , i will be the god of thy seed , gen. . . was made : yea exercit. page , . i expound the promise , as in respect of some peculiar blessings , belonging to abrahams natural seed . nor did i quarrel with mr. blake for proving from gal. , . a birth-privilege belonging to the jews , but excepted against him for that he contended to have the seed of believing gentile-parents under the gospel to be under the first member of the division in the text , to wit , jews by nature : which exception i have made good in my postscript to my apology s. . which i intend to vindicate from master blakes reply , vindic. foed . cha . . in that which followes . but then what doth this advantage to prove mr. gs. minor. to children ( meaning all or else his conclusion can be but particular ) of believing christians the gospel-covenant is extended in the christian churches ? is this the gospel-covenant to make a people only reputatively and outwardly , but not really adopted : is this that which circumcision did seal ? is this the covenant of grace which the seal is to follow ? what kind of juggling is there with these men ? they contend the covenant gen. . . to be the same with the covenant of grace for substance , and that they make to consist in saving graces , the temporal benefits they refer to the administration that then was , they will not have it called a mixt covenant , and this covenant of grace they will have to be sealed by circumcision out of rom. . . and they say this was made to believers and their seed , and thence they have salvation if they die in infancy , and without this there is no ground of hope of the salvation of any infant deceased ; and they argue they are to have the seal , because they are in covenant , which if they understand not of that covenant , of which that ordinance is the seal , what colour is there to derive thence a title unto that seal on them who have interest in another covenant , which it doth not seal ? their argument is , he hath right to the conveyance , who hath right to the land : but these men who dare not assert that the covenant of saving grace belongs to all believers natural children , yet will have them all to have right to baptism which seals saving graces , though perhaps a very few , and those all unknown persons have right to that covenant , onely because a promise of outward and reputative adoption , though not saving graces belongs to all . besides what ground hath mr. g. to call this promise the gospel-covenant ? rom. . , . gal. . , , &c. the gospel-covenant is , the just shall live by faith : it is that which contains promise of sanctification , remission of sins , &c. hebrews , ▪ , , . & . , . matthew . . the everlasting covenant that hath the sure mercies of david , isaiah . . acts . , , . hebrews . . and of which jesus is the surety or mediator , hebrews . . & . . what a mockage then is this of people to tell them the covenant of grace is made to their children , and the cospel-covenant is extended to them : and that god hath promised to be their god ▪ and that they are confederate with their parents , and yet in fine all that they dare assert is , god hath promised to the seed of believers an external , reputative adoption , though not real : such chaff they catch their auditors with . but is this promise that god will settle his church in abrahams family , and separate them from the rest of the world , as light from darkness , as mr. g. expresly makes it , indeed the gospel-covenant ? i dare freely say , it is jewish , anti-evangelical , directly opposite to the gospel-covenant . for the gospel-covenant is , that god would bless all nations in abraham through faith , gal. . , . gentiles as well as jews , yea the gentile-believers instead of the jews broken off by unbelief . if then this be the gospel covenant , i will be the god of thy seed ; that is , in mr. gs. sense , i will separate abrahams family from the rest of the world to be my church , then the church under the gospel covenant is not catholick contrary to the article of the creed , and so the gospel-covenant continues the middle wall of partition . but perhaps master geree , helps the matter in that which followeth . for the second thing , saith he , the extent of this privilege ( though there were something in it peculiar to abraham ) yet was it not limitted to him alone , but those that were of abraham inherited his promise to have god their god , and the god of their seed . as what was said to joshua , josh. . i will not leave thee nor forsake thee , was not bounded to his person , but applicable to all conscientious israelites ; yea to all christians in gods way and work , as the apostle applieth it heb. . . so this privilege or the covenant to have god the god of their seed , is to be applyed to all israelites , yea to all of any nation that have his faith and tread in his steps : they that do the work of abraham may claim the promises of abraham , that be ordinary and essential parts of the covenant . answ. mr. g. will have the promise [ i will be a god to thy seed ] to promise the settling of the church in abrahams family separated from the rest of the world as light from darkness ; if this be so , how can it be a promise to another nation , that their children should be adopted outwardly and reputatively ? for ▪ if by this promise abrahams natural posterity have a privilege whereby they are sethis promise is common to other nations with them . but saith he , the promise parated from all other nations , surely it s no better than a contradiction to say to joshua , iosh. . . was not bounded to his person , heb. . . which i grant ; nor do i doubt , but promises made to abraham , david , joshua , &c do belong to all true believers , where the holy ghost doth so expound them , and where the promise is of a thing which other scriptures do clear to belong to them . but there is no such thing in the promise of gen. . . master geree brings nothing but his own assertion to prove it , nor do i know any thing brought by any else , but what the author of the little book , intitled , infants baptism proved lawful by scripture , printed anno . hath , who thus argued , that which was promised to abraham , as a believer , is promised to every believer . but god promised to be a god to abraham , and his seed as a believer : ergo : to which i answered , if [ as ] be taken reduplicatively so as that the meaning be under that formal consideration , to him being a believer , and to every one being a believer , as to him , i deny the major ; it was not made to him as a believer , simply under that consideration , but though it were made upon his faith , as a motive of making that covenant with him , yet not under that formal consideration simply as a believer , so as that the covenant should be said to be made to every believer , as to him . as in like manner , though peter matthew had the promise of building the church , and the keys of the kingdom of heaven , and of binding and loosing , conferred on him by reason of his confession of christ , verse , yet every one that confesseth christ as he did , hath not that that promise : if any ask how it was made to abraham ? i answer , so far as concerns the spiritual part , it is cleer from romans , that it was made to him as father of believers , and in that construction , though it belong to gentiles , yet it belongs onely to believing elect gentiles , romans galatians , or to christ , whether personal or mystical , verse . but that it belongs not in that sense , no not to all or any , either of jews or gentiles , who are not elect , is apparent from romans , no meer formal professor can lay claim to it . as for the promise of outward privileges , as to be of the visible church , to have the ordinances of gods worship , so the promise is made to abraham as a natural father of his inheriting posterity by isaac , and to that seed by isaac which was to inherit in abrahams family : and to that natural seed which god would bring out of egypt , and settle in canaan , and this was but unto the time of reformation , as it is termed , heb. chap. . vers . . now that those words , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , should be expounded thus , i will be the god of every gentile believer , either in profession or reality , that his natural posterity should be gods visible church , or visible church-members , hath not the least intimation in scripture , but much against it , nor can be brought by any shew of right construction to be the meaning . for i would know under which term of these [ thee , or thy seed ] every such natural childe , even an infant shauld be meant ; under [ thy seed ] they must say , but the scripture placeth believers themselves , and those only reall believers under that term , as is proved before , and other places speak to like purpose , john . . matth. . . luke . . therefore without addition to the text , believers natural seed are not there placed . nor were the promise true in mr. gerees sense . for god doth not make good the promise in that sense to every believer and his natural seed , many gentile believers have had their children persecutors , not visible church-members , and may have still ; yea in that sense which mr. geree himself expounds it , it was only verified of the natural posterity of abraham , yet not of every particular child of his , but of the nation till christs comming . as for the dictate of mr. g. they that do the works of abraham , may claim the promises of abraham , that be ordinary and essential parts of the covenant , it intimates some promises of the covenant to be essential , some not , some ordinary , some extraordinary parts of the covenant . but these are new distinctions , with which i meet not elsewhere , nor know i how to understand what promises he makes ordinary , nor what extraordinary , what essential parts of the covenant , what not . that covenant being but once made in my conceit , therefore had all the promises of the same sort , whether ordinary or extraordinary , and a covenant being an aggregate of promises , contains the promises as the matter , and the making together as the form , which are the essential parts of the covenant , there 's no promise but being the matter of the covenant is an essential part , or rather all the promises together are the matter , and each promise is an integral part of the whole number of promises . and therfore his speech is not easie to be understood . i grant that they who are of the faith of abraham , may claim the promise of justification , and other saving blessings . but for visible church-membership of natural posterity , or other domestique promises made to abraham , neither the natural posterity of abraham , nor the truest believing gentile , can lay a just claim to them , but that notwithstanding that promise , god is free to make their children or the children of gentile , or jew infidels his people , his visible church , and to settle his worship with them . mr. geree writes thus , and that this privilege of having god to be the god of our seed , was not personal , and peculiar to abraham , but propagated to his seed , may hence appear , because the same in effect is promised to other godly jews , which is here promised to abraham , deut. . . and the lord thy god will circumcise thy heart , and the heart of thy seed . answ. the promise to abraham , according to mr. gs. exposition , was , that he would be a god to all in regard of external denomination , and external privilege of a church , and to the elect in regard of spiritual adoption grace and glory . sure this is not the same in effect with that , deut. . . which is nothing of external privileges of a church , but of circumcising their hearts , and the heart of their seed , to love the lord their god with all their heart , and with all their soul , that they might live : which can be true only of the elect . besides , it is promised to them at their return from captivity , and upon their returning to the lord , and obeying his voice according to all that he commanded them that day , they and their children , with all their heart , and all their soul , v. . which sure cannot be ordinarily applied to them in their infancy , and therefore this text is very impertinently alleged to prove an external privilege to infants of meer reputed believers , even in their infancy . mr. baxter himself in his friendly accommodation with mr. bedford p. . hath these words . the text seems plainly to speak of [ their seed ] not in their infant-state , but in their adult , deut. . for first , verse . the condition of the promise is expresly required , not only of the parent , but of the children themselves by name . . and that condition is the personal performance of the same acts , which are required of the parents , viz. to return to the lord , and obey his voice with all their heart and soul. . the circumcision of the heart promised , is so annexed to the act , that it appeareth to be meant only of those that were capable of the act , ver . . the lord thy god will circumcise thine heart , and the heart of thy seed , to love the lord thy god ; so that it is not meant of those that are uncapable of so loving . mr. g. yet adds . and thus much that place , act. . . doth hold forth and contribute to infant-baptism , to shew that children are comprehended in the covenant with their fathers , and both these last promises being of evangelical privileges they must needs be communicable to all under the gospel-covenant ; so then it remains that god still is in covenant with every believer , and his seed . answ. that acts . . neither shews that children ( of believers ) are comprehended ( universally and necessarily ) with their parents , nor contributes ought to infant-baptism , is shewed in the forepart of this review s. . and notwithstanding any thing said by mr. geree it yet remains to be proved , that god is in covenant with every believer and his seed . the rest of that section of mr. geree , is about my expounding mr. ms. second conclusion , which i shall review as far as is meet when i come to it . i have dispatched at last the answering those that argue syllogistically from the covenant , and seal for infant-baptism . but most go another way by laying down conclusions , and framing hypotheses , and i proceed to take a view of their writings . sect . xvii . mr. cottons , the assemblies , and london ministers way of arguing for infant-baptism from the covenant and circumcision , is recited , and the methode of the future progress in the review , expressed . mr. john cotton in his dialogue , ch . . goes this way , and expresseth himself in four things , that . god made a covenant of grace with abraham , and his seed , gen. . . . gave him a commandment to receive the sign of circumcision the seal of the covenant of grace , to him and his seed , gen. ● . , . . the lord hath given that covenant of grace which was then to abraham and his seed , now to believers and our seed . . and hath given us baptism in the room of circumcision . the assembly at westminster in their confession of faith , chap . art . . assert , that the visible church consists of all the children of those that profess the true religion , and cite to prove it , cor. . . acts . . ezekiel . , . rom. . . gen. . . and . . of these , one of the texts , to wit , gen. . . i meet not with in the writings of the defenders of infant-baptism , to my remembrance , except once in mr. baxter to prove a conditional covenant made with all adams posterity . i do not imagine what use that text is of to prove infants of those that profess the true religion to be visible church-members . whether the seed of the woman be meant of all men , or by excellency of christ , or of true believers ( which are all the senses i conceive ) yet how from any of these should be gathered that infants of professours of the true religion , as such , and not as of humane kinde , should be meant by the seed of the woman , or that the bruising of the serpents head should prove , infants of them that profess the true religion to be visible church-members is a riddle , which i cannot yet resolve . ch. . art . . they say , infants of one or both believing parents are to be baptized , and in the margin cite , gen. . . . with gal. . . . col. . , . & a●ts . . . & rom. . , . cor. . . mat. . . mark . , , , . luke . . what they would gather from these texts may be ghessed from the directory about baptism , where they direct the minister to teach the people , that baptism is a seal of the covenant of grace , of our ingrafting into christ , &c. that the promise is made to believers and their seed , and that the seed and posterity of the faithful , born within the church , have by their birth-interest in the covenant , and right to the seal of it , and to the outward privileges of the church under the gospel , no less then the children of abraham in the time of the old testament , the covenant of grace for substance being the same , and the grace of god , and consolation of believers more plentiful then before , that the son of god admitted little children into his presence , embracing them , and blessing them , saying , for of such is the kingdom of god ; that children by baptism , are solemnly received into the bosome of the visible church , that they are christians , and federally holy before baptism , and therefore are they baptized . most of which propositions are ambiguous , few of them true , or have any proof from the texts alleged in the confession ; and if they were all true ( setting aside one or two which express the conclusion in a different phrase ) they would not infer the conclusion . the first proposition is ambiguous , it being doubtful in what sense baptism is said to be a seal of the covenant of grace , whether in a borrowed or proper sense , so as it be the definition or genus of it , or onely an adjunct of it , or whether it seal the making of the covenant , or the performing of it , or the thing covenanted , what they mean by the covenant of grace , which is that covenant ; whether it seal all or a part of it , whether it seal gods covenanting to us , or our covenanting to god. nor is there any proof for it from rom. . . which neither speaks of baptism , nor of any ones circumcision but abrahams , nor saith of his circumcision , that it was the seal of the covenant of grace , as they , it is likely , mean. the next proposition is so ambiguous , that mr. m. and mr. g. are driven to devise senses which the words will not bear to make it true , as i shew in my apology , s. . the words seem to bear this sense , that the promise of justification , adoption , &c. is made to believers and their seed . but so it is apparently false , contradicted by the apostle rom. . , . and by other texts , nor is it proved from gen. . . compared with gal. . . . acts . . or any other of their texts , yea in that sense it is disclaimed by master marshall , and master geree . the next is ambiguous also . for how the seed of the faithful may be said to be born within the church , or what interest in the covenant , and right to the seal of it , and what outward privileges they have by their birth , or what outward privileges they have in like measure as the children of abraham , is as uncertain as the rest , and how any of the texts prove it , is uncertain . surely gal. . . . speaks only of the privileges of justification and sanctification , which abrahams children by faith , and no other , not every believers posterity or natural seed have , nor is there a word gen. . . of any privilege to our natural seed as such . the next too is doubtful , it being uncertain what they mean by the substance of the covenant , what they make accidental in it , and what substantial ; nor is it easie to conceive what they mean when they say , the grace of god and consolation of believers is more plentiful then before , or how any of the texts prove it , or what this is to their purpose , that the enlargement of a believers comfort intitles his child to baptism , nor what is meant when it is said , that children by baptism are received into the bosom of the visible church , and yet after withheld from the lords supper without any ecclesiastical censure , nor do i know how they mean or prove them to be christians , or federally holy afore baptism . for my part , in those propositions i deprehend little truth or plain sense ; but that the directory in that part is a meer riddle , fitter for schollars to study than for teaching of the people . the london ministers ( of whom it is likely a considerable part were of the assembly ) in their jus divinum regim . eccl. page . speak thus . so infants of christian parents under the new testament are commanded to be baptized by consequence , for that the infants of gods people in the old testament were commanded to be circumcised , gen. . for the privileges of believers under the new testament , are as large as the privileges of believers under the old testament , and the children of believers under the new testament are federally holy , and within the covenant of god as well as the children of believers under the old testament , gen. . compared with rom. . . cor. . . and what objections can be made from infants incapacity now against their baptism , might as well then have been made against their being circumcised . and why children should once be admitted to the like initiating sacrament ( the lord of the covenant , and sacrament no where forbidding them ) there can be no just ground . and baptism succeeds in the room of circumcision , col. . , . concerning which i say , there 's no proof from gen. . compared with rom. . . cor. . . to prove the children of believers federaly holy as they would , nor is there any proof from col. . , . to prove the succession of baptism in the room of circumcision . and though infants have not a natural incapacity to be dipped in water , yet they have a natural incapacity to profess faith in christ , which is now required to baptism though not required to circumcision . and there is an objection that may be made against infant-baptism , to wit , the want of a command , which could not be objected against infant male circumcision : and this is a just ground to exclude infants from baptism , yea the very same ground they give for excluding them the communion , and the very same ground which paedobaptists do continually , in books and sermons urge against popish and prelatical ceremonies . but forasmuch as mr. m. did direct his defence of infant-baptism to the assembly , and mr. pryn in his suspension suspended , p. . seems to have taken his book to be approved by the assembly , and he is of any i meet with in print likeliest to have produced their strength , and for other reasons , therefore i conceive my self bound to examine his defence in the third part of it , referring the reader to what of that or any other is already dispatched , taking in somewhat of master blakes , and some others by the way , and then to examine such parts of mr. cobbets iust vindication , as are not yet examined so far as i find necessary , and at last examine so much of mr. bs. dispute about his second argument as is not yet dispatched . sect . xviii . mr. marshalls reply to the first section of the third part of my examen about the connexion between the covenant , and seal , is reviewed . mr. m. in his sermon page . thus disputed , my first argument is this ; the infants of believing parents are foederati , therefore they must be signati . they are within the covenant of grace ; therefore are to partake of the seal of the covenant . to this i answered by denying both the antecedent and the consequence : and first i disputed against the consequence , exam. part . . s. . mr. m. in his reply would have the reader to consider my advantage from the much silence in the scripture to make my work have a specious probability , that the like specious plea might be made against the justification of infants , especially if his dispute should be carried as mine is , altogether in the way of making exceptions against arguments , but not positively affirming any thing . thus what others have counted my vertue , and have commended , beyond what it is fit for me to express , mr. m. unjustly seeks to draw into suspition , as if there were sophistry and guile in it , as he did in other things , as i shew in my apology . but me thinks a considerate reader should take this to be the course of a diffident man. if there be much silence in scripture about infants , why do mr. m. and others avouch their baptism ; with so much peremptoriness . if their justification could be no better proved then their baptism , it would be no article of my faith . my disputation is carried in that way which is used by disputants that examine writings scholastically , wherein it is defective mr. m. should shew . that i made exceptions against arguments was agreeable to my work , being to answer as mr. m. was to prove : no man is to expect regularly any more of a respondent . yet that i positively affirm nothing is an untruth with a witness : yea in many points where it was not necessary i positively set down my tenet and my proofs , and answer objections to the contrary . the resolving questions about baptism how it should be , could not reasonably be expected in my examen . . mr. m. takes on him to prove his consequence by mine own principles , to wit , that i yield that such as are regenerate , sanctified , &c. may be baptized , which he saith is in plain english , that such as are covenanters ought not to be denyed the initial seal of the covenant . but i do not think the speeches the same , either in plain english , or mr. ms. own english , or mine . not in plain english. in plain english a covenanter is one that makes a promise . is a scottish covenanter any other then one that makes a promise or subscribes to the covenant ? but a person regenerate or sanctified may make no promise , nor do i think when mr. m. calls infants federate , or in the covenant of grace , he means they make a promise , but that a promise is made to them . nor in mr. ms. own english. for when he saith , they are in covenant , he means , infants are in some sense under the covenant of grace in respect of the outward administration and church privileges , which is not all one as to be regenerate , sanctifyed , &c. nor in my english. for the being in covenant which i grant , gives a title to baptism , is meant of their present state , so as that not only the promise is made to them , what god will do for them afterwards , but for the present they are actually sanctified , regenerate , believers , disciples , as mine own words , cited by mr. m. shew ; so that mr. m. doth but abuse me , and the reader , endeavouring to possesse him with this conceit , as if his consequence were proved by mine own principles . but master marshall not trusting to this , answers , more particularly : . i grant with you that there is no necessary dependance between a promise and a seal , the addition of a seal to a promise is of free grace as well as the promise it self . which if true , then there 's no necessary connexion between the covenant and seal , and so this proposition is not true . all that have the promise are to be sealed . for if it be true it is in some degree of necessity , to wit , de omni . as for his reason , it is frivolous ; there is no necessary dependance , because both are of free grace . for those things that are of free grace have a necessary dependence as , to be predestinate , called , justified , glorifyed . but he means , the nature of the terms makes not a necessary connexion between them . if that be his meaning , mr. baillee his collegue is deserted , who would infer a necessary connexion from the nature of the terms , which i have refuted in my addition to my apology , s. . but mr. m. addes . nor . did i ever think , that by gods revealed will this proposition was true in all ages of the church . all covenanters must be sealed , i carried it no higher than abrahams time , when god first added this new mercy to his church , vouchsafing a seal to the covenant . answ. if this be true , then there is nothing moral and perpetual in seals , as they call them , of the covenant . for such thing are from the beginning , and belong to gentiles as well as jews , and therefore it is in vain to derive infants sealing barely from the covenant of grace . for sith that , as mr. ms. first conclusion speaks , for substance hath alwaies been one , and the same both to the jews and gentiles , if there were a connexion between it , and the seal it should have been as well before abrahams time as since . but he thinks in his third answer to make good the connexion , when he saith , and . from abrahams time , and so forward i say it was gods will , that such as are in covenant should be sealed with the initial seal of the covenant , supposing them only capable of the seal , and no special bar put in against them by god himself . to which i answer . he saith after , if you please to state the general proposition as you needs must , that all who since abrahams time are foederati , or covenanters with god , must by gods own appointment receive the seal of admission into covenant , unless they be either uncapable of it , or are exempted by a particular dispensation . so that one of these two propositions is that which makes up his enthymeme an entire syllogism , and his syllogism must stand in one or other of these forms . from abrahams time all such as are in covenant should be sealed with the initial seal of the covenant , supposing them onely capable of the seal , and no special bar put in against them by god himself . but all the infants of believing parents are in covenant , and they are capable of the seal , and there is no special bar put in against them by god himself . ergo , they should be sealed . or thus ; all who since abrahams time are foederati , or covenanters with god , must , by gods own appointment receive the seal of admission into covenant , unless they be either uncapable of it , or are exempted by a particular dispensation . all infants of believers since abrahams time , are foederati or covenanters with god , neither uncapable of the seal , nor exempted by a particular dispensation : ergo , all infants of believers since abrahams time , must , by gods own appointment , receive the seal of admission into covenant . to which i answer , mr. m. tells me , i must needs state thus the general proposition . but it is a pretty art he hath , as elsewhere to call that my minor which was his own not mine ; so here to say , i must needs state the general proposition thus , which is of his own framing . however , he is not wronged , that it is thus framed . let us then view it , and try whether ( except in that of circumcision ) there be any truth , sense or consideratenesse in it . as for circumcision , if it be meant onely of it , then the conclusion can be of it only , and as the truth is , his argument concludes only that infants of believers are to be circumcised . . i had in my examen noted a fault in his argument in his sermon , in that his conclusion was of a sign of the covenant indefinite , and not of baptism only , whereas the lords supper is also a sign of the covenant , which he would not have delivered to infants . and to it he answers , that he clearly in his sermon shewed this proposition to be only meant of the initial sign , and not of the other . but this doth not excuse his fault , who taking upon him to prove infant-baptism , concludes another thing in the argument , though he might perhaps , some pages of , where the reader looks not for an explication of his argument , limit his speech to the initial seal . and for what he tells me , he is sure that i who durst baptize an infant known to me to be regenerate , durst not give the other sacrament to it , there being self examination and ability to discern the lords body prerequired to the one , not to the other ; i told him in my apology s. . i durst do the one as i durst do the other , and that self examination and ability to discern the lords body is as well required to baptism , as the lords supper , acts . . & . . rom. . , . but were it , that i durst not do the one as the other , yet this would not help mr. m. who would prove the title to the initial seal , by that proof of interest in the covenant , which will conclude as well title to the after , as the initial seal . for the proof is usually the seal must follow the covenant ; which if true , then not only the initial , but also the after-seal must follow it . but waving this , is the fault mended in his defence ? doth he conclude definitely of baptism here ? nay notwithstanding he was warned , yet chorda semper oberrat eadem , he still runs into the same fault , concluding in both forms of an initial seal indefinitely , not definitely of baptism , and therefore may be interpreted to conclude of circumcision as well as of baptism , yea rather his assertion ( if there be any good sense of it ) is of the circumcising then baptizing of infants , sith all his proof is about the initial sign of circumcision , and the limitations he puts into the major are , that it may be true of circumcision . but this is not all the fault in his new forms : notwithstanding i complained in my examen sect . . of his ambiguities , which i shewed in my apology s. , . and postscript s. . yet as if either he could not , or would not , speak distinctly , he retains the same fault in his defence . whereas i conceive the covenant of grace now contains only the promise of saving grace , he saith p . the covenant of grace contains not onely saving grace , but the administration of it also in outward ordinances and church privileges ; but shews not where , nor in which covenant of grace there are promises of the administration of saving grace in outward ordinances and church privileges . it is true , circumcision is called the covenant , gen. . . by a metonymia as mr. m. confesseth page but not because it was contained in the covenant : it is not metonymia continentis pro contento , but signati pro signo : now that the sign should be said to be contained in the covenant , is scarse good sense ; sure it is not meet to be used in disputes . and therefore whoever useth the covenant of grace for any other than the covenant of saving grace , or saith it contains any other than promises of saving grace , seems to affect ambiguities unmeet for dispute , as not willing to be understood . again page . he expresseth the covenant of grace he means to be that gen. . . and he cannot but know it to have diverse meanings ; one that god will be a god to abraham , and his spiritual seed , which he confesseth pag. . to be the elect , when he saith , secondly by the word [ seed ] was meant the children of the promise the elect , rom. . . and in this sense it is denyed by him , that god hath made a promise of saving grace to the natural seed of believers , and so they are not in this covenant in this sense . yet the directory when it speaks of baptism , as the seal of the covenant , means it in this sense , as the words before recited shew , for what else can be meant when they distinguish between interest in the covenant , and right to the seal of it , and the ou●ward privileges of the church under the gospel . and rom. . . is alleged in the confession of faith , for the proof of this , that it is the seal of the covenant of grace ; now that text speaks of being a seal of the righteousness of faith , which is a saving grace , and in the confession of faith , ch . . art . . and in the greater catechism , they make the covenant of grace to offer life and salvation by christ , to promise faith , and to be made with christ , and in him with all the elect , as his seed ; and so the argument from the covenant of grace to the seal , must mean it thus , or else it is frivolous . for if the seal must follow the covenant ; it must follow the covenant which is sealed by it , which is only the promise of saving grace , there being no shew of consequence in it , infants of believers have not the covenant of saving grace , but of outward ordinances and church privileges , therefore they are to be sealed with that seal , which seals only saving graces . and yet methinks they should not have avouched as the directory doth , that the posterity of the faithful have by their birth interest in that covenant , considering how the ap●stle determines rom. . . the children of the flesh may not be the children of god , nor the seed , nor children of the promise . another ense of the promise , gen. . . is , i will be a god to abraham , and his natural seed by isaac and jacob : but in this sense it is proper only to the jewes , and the argument is as frivolous : god promised to be a god to the jews , therefore infant-gentiles who have nothing to do with that promise , must have baptism , which is no seal or token of that promise at all . if mr. m. would have done something to his purpose , he should have shewed , not as he doth p. , , &c. in many words quite besides the business , how the covenant is taken strictly and largely , and how they may be said to be in covenant in some sense , who have a visible right , without saving grace , but have shewed in which words there is any promise that may infer right to gentile-believers infants to be baptized , gen. . . or how he can prove what he saith , page . that baptism seals that promise in which god engageth himself to be the god of believing christians , and their seed ? i would fain know in what words , in respect of what blessings and gifts , and in what manner or upon what terms god thus engageth himself . the apostle saith gal. . . to abraham and his seed were the promises made . i no where find they were made to a gentile believer and his seed . the like playing with ambiguities is in the use of the phrases , foederate , in covenant , being under the covenant , being in covenant ▪ covenanters . when he saith , infants of believers are foederati or covenanters with god , or enter into covenant , according to the plain meaning of the word , they should be asserted to be such as make a promise to god. for what is a covenanter but one that makes a promise ? how do men enter into covenant , but by some act testifying assent to a promise ? now in this sense i should grant his major , and deny his minor , which in this sense is against sense . for when did any hear or see , or otherwise perceive an infant of a believer make a promise to god , or by any act of his , shew his assent to own god for his god. in the other form he saith , all such as are in the covenant should be sealed , and that expression seems to have this sense , that god by his act of promise as his words are page . engageth himself to be the god of believing christians , and their seed , which his words import , page . where having said , all such as are in the covenant should be sealed , to prove it he allegeth , gen. . , , , . where the very ground why god would have them sealed is because of the covenant , i will establish my covenant between me and thee , and thy seed after thee , &c. so that the sense of his argument should be thus , all they who are in covenant , that is , to whom god hath promised to be their god , they should be sealed , &c. but all infants of believing , even gentile parents , are in covenant , that is , god hath promised to be their god : ergo. of which i would deny both major and minor the minor being expresly contrary to ro. . . though it were understood of true believers , and most certainly false of believers only in profession , to whom , especially th●se of the g●ntiles , god never promised to be god , much less to their natural seed ; yet the minor must be true of them , or else this argument proves not they are to be baptized , which is their practise . but seeing the argument for infant-baptism will not hold in these senses of the promise , gen. . . ( though the first sense be that which they give of that promise , when they dispute against arminians , and apply it to the elect onely , as the words of many shew , cited in my examen part . . s. . in my praecursor s. . mr. m. himself so expounds it with mr. bayn pag. . of his defence ) therefore mr. m. hath another sense to which he flies . he talks of an outward and an inward covenant , page . and page . he tells us , that he means all the infants of believers are in the outward covenant , that is , they are to be reputed as in the covenant , in respect of the outward administration , outward ordinances and church-privileges , which when it comes to application is meant of no other than baptism now , and circumcision heretofore , and therefore as i shew in my apology s. . the major proposition is meerly nugatory in this sense ; all that are in the covenant , that is , that are to have the initial seal should be sealed with the initial seal , which were true , but ridiculous . and in truth i may ( how ever it be censured ) apply to the discourse in this argument , be it mr. ms. or the assemblies , the poets words , parturiunt montes , nasc●tur ridiculus mus . and yet there is more shuffling in this thing . mr. m. to make some shew of answering my instances of women and males under eight daies old , not being circumcised , though in covenant , limits his major in the first form thus [ supposing them onely capable of the seal , and no special bar put in against them ] in the other form thus [ unless they be either uncapable of it , or are exempted by particular dispensation ] by the bar , he means gods prohibition , as these words , page . shew , god forbad them to have the seal till they were eight daies old . but a prohibition and a dispensation are not all one : a prohibition is of a thing , that may not be done ; a dispensation supposeth the thing is to be done , yet frees the person from doing it in some cases for some time . but letting pass this exception against the expressions , i would know how god put a bar , or forbad infants under eight daies old to be circumcised . i know no other but this , that god appointed the eighth day for them to be circumcised . now if this be a forbidding to circumcise before ( as i acknowledge it is , and so do many protestant divines , as parcus comment . in gen. . . errant masculi in foedere abjutero , &c. anticipare vero signum nec licebat , nec opus erat ) then that is forbidden , which is otherwise than god appointed : and sith our lord christ hath not appointed any to be baptized till they be disciples , he hath prohibited any to be baptized till they be disciples , and so , what ever the london ministers say in their words above recited , there is just ground even a prohibition , against baptizing infants . and so the minor of mr. ms. argument is not true . upon all this debate i profess i find so much inconsiderateness , or confusedness , or non-sense , or untruth , or trifling , if not juggling in mr. ms. arguing , that i must vary my answer , as i find his meaning sometimes denying the syllogism as being tautological , and not having three terms , or which is all one , any medium to prove his conclusion by , but only repeating the conclusion in different phrases , and those some of them new minted gibberish or non-sense , sometimes the major , sometimes the minor , sometimes both . however , sith it is my task , i shall view what he saith . page . he saith thus , which is apparent in the very first institution of an initial seal gen. . , , , . where the very ground why god would have them sealed is because of the covenant , i will establish my covenant between me and thee , and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant to be a god unto thee , and thy seed after thee : thou shalt keep my covenant therefore : and this is my covenant which ye shall keep ; every man-child among you shall be circumcised , and afterward in the fourteenth , the seal is by a metonymia called the covenant , for that it is apparent , not only that god commanded them who were in covenant to be circumcised , but that they should therefore be circumcised because of the covenant , or in token of the covenant between god and them ; and he that rejected or neglected the seal , is said not only to break gods commandment , but his covenant . so that because the initial seal was added to the covenant , and such as received it received it as an evidence of the covenant , or because they were in covenant ▪ i therefore concluded , that by gods own will , such as enter into covenant ought to receive the seal , supposing still they were capable of it . so that to lay circumcision upon gods command , and the covenant of grace too , are well consistent together ; for the command is the cause of the existence of the duty , but the covenant of grace is the motive to it . answ. here is all mr. ms. strength to prove his major , that it was gods will that such as are in covenant from abrahams time , and so forward , should be sealed with the initial seal of the covenant , which he after alters thus . such as enter into covenant ought to receive the seal . but there is nothing but confusedness and impertinency in all this passage . . he tells us , there is the institution of an initial seal gen. . , , , . which he must understand of an initial seal in general or indefinite , or else it reacheth not to baptism , and so it is impertinently alleged . but it is palpably false that there is in those words any other initial seal instituted then circumcision , and i dare boldly say , it is a meer dotage to maintain that in those words there is any rule about baptism or any other ordinance of god then circumcision . the very words are , thou shalt keep my covenant , and this covenant is demonstrated to be male-circumcision and no other , of which the time and part are precisely set down . . he should prove that all that were in covenant had title to the initial seal or right ; but his conclusion is of their duty , not of their title . now it cannot be said to be infants duty ; the command was not given to them , nor doth mr. m. i think , assert it as their duty , but as their privilege ; and yet all that the text inferreth , or mr. m. concludes from it , concerns the connexion between the duty of circumcising , which belongs not to infants , and the covenant , not between the privilege of circumcision passively taken , which belongs to infants and the covenant , which is another impertinency . . be it granted that the proposition to be proved is of duty in parents or ministers , yet he is necessitated to grant the command was the cause of the existence of the duty , and more plainly page . the formal reason of their being circumcised , was the command of god : which if true , there 's no duty without the command , whatever interest there might be in the covenant : and therefore the proposition is true , all that enter into covenant ought to receive the seal if it be commanded , not otherwise : and so neither infant-circumcision nor infant-baptism can be proved from the bare interest in the covenant , without a particular command for each of them . . he saith , the covenant of grace was the motive , page . the covenant of grace , or their church-state was the motive to it , and the thing it related to . but he tells us not to whom it was a motive . a motive is an impulsive cause , whereby a person is perswaded or induced to do a thing . but it was not the motive to infants , for they conceived not of it . his words [ the very ground why god would have them sealed , is because of the covenant ] do intimate , that he means the covenant was the motive to god to give the command . but what it makes to his purpose i do not conceive . for though that were the motive to god , yet gods motive is not the rule of the duty , but his command to us ; nor the evidence of our privilege , but his declaration of his will. but be it a motive to abraham , yet it was but a motive for the more full engagement of him to that which without that motive he had been to do by reason of the command , nor any further evidence of privilege then was imported by other declaration of gods will. . though circumcision did relate to the covenant , and it was received as an evidence of the covenant , yet this proves not that it was received by each person , because he was in covenant , nor that the being in covenant was the rule of the using that rite , that they which were in covenant should have it , and they that were not in covenant , should not have it , which is the thing to be proved , but is certainly false , as i have by many instances shewed . . if all this were granted , yet that this rule did reach further then the use of circumcision is not proved here : and what is brought elsewhere shall be shewed in it's place to be much short of proving any such general rule about an initial seal , as is here by mr. m. averred . but let us see what his proof amounts to about circumcision . . he urgeth , that circumcision is called a token of the covenant ; but this proves no more then this , that the use of circumcision was to be a sign god made such a covenant , and would fulfill it : not that every one that was in covenant was to be circumcised , or that every one that was to be circumcised was in covenant . . that it is termed the covenant . but this proves no more than the former , sith it is acknowledged to be so called only by a metonymia , of putting the thing signifyed for the sign . . the particle [ therfore ] is thus urged : god not only commanded them who were in covenant , 〈◊〉 b● circumcised , but that they should [ therfore ] be circumcised because of the covenant , or in token of the covenant between god & them ; but . the particle [ therfore ] though it be in our last translation , yet in the hebrew it is only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and may be rendered , and thou , or , but thou , as by the tig●● : it is & 〈◊〉 , by parcus , tu autem , piscator , tu verò . . let it be read [ therefore ] and the inference be from the covenant ; yet that the inference is from the promise in the seventh verse onely , and not from the eighth verse , which is next , or the rest of the promises , v. , , , cannot be shewed . . let these things be granted : yet that it imports this rule to be taken from the covenant , those who are in covenant are to be circumcised , not others , hath no colour of proof , nor any shew of truth in it , sith it is clear in the case of ishmael to whom that promise di● not belong nor any in that covenant , yet he was to be circumcised , and others were not to be circumcised , to whom the promises were made . . he urgeth thus : and he that rejected or neglected the seal is said not only to break gods commandment , but his covenant : so that because the initial seal was added to the covenant , and such as received it , received it as an evidence of the covenant , or because they were in covenant . to which i reply . two waies a man may be said to break gods covenant : one by breaking the command , which was in reference to the covenant , or enjoyned in testimony of it ; and if this be his sense , then mr. ms. speech is trifling , when he saith , he that rejected or neglected the seal , is said not only to break gods commandment , but his covenant , sit being all one to break the command and the covenant . the other sense is ; he hath broken my covenant , that is , as piscat . sch . on gen. . as much as is in him , by depriving himself of the grace of god , promised in the covenant . for otherwise the incredulity of man doth not make void the faith of god , rom. . . but take it either way , it proves not that which was to be proved , that the rule about circumcising persons was their interest in the covenant . all that follows on this is , that the observance of circumcision was strictly enjoined under this penalty , that otherwise they should be cut off from gods people , and so deprived of the benefit of the covenant signified ; but this doth not prove that every one circumcised was in the covenant , and should have the benefit of the covenant . so that though it be granted which mr. m. saies , that to lay circumcision upon gods command , and the covenant of grace too , are well consistent together ; yet his major is not proved , that it was gods will that such as are in covenant from abrahams time , and so forward , should be sealed with the initial seal of the covenant , supposing them only capable of the seal , and no special bar put in against them by god himself . nor is mr. m. more happy in answering my exceptions . whereas you allege , saith he , concerning melchisedec , lot , job ; we find no such thing , that they either received this seal of circumcision or were tyed to it . i reply , it s very hard for you to prove that melchisedeck was then alive : and had he been alive , he was of an higher order , and above that paedagogy . answ. i grant it cannot be demonstratively proved , that he was alive : yet it being probable he was , who not many years before met abraham , though he were in covenant , yet being not appointed to be circumcised , it overthrows the proposition by which mr. ms. enthymeme was to be proved , that all that are foederati , must be signati . yea mr. ms. answer here , that he was above that paedagogy , doth plainly intimate that circumcision was peculiar to that paedagogy , and so the rule about circumcision not obligatory to christian gentiles , to whom that paedagogy is abolished , and who have a priest of an higher order , to wit , that of melchisedec . as for lot , he denies not that he then lived , but saith , that no scripture saith he was not circumcised , which he saith of job also , whose time is uncertain , by reason of th● scripture-silence , though probably he was of esaus posterity . but in matters of fact , à non scripto ad non factum non valet consequentia . nevertheless for lot , it seems to me very unlikely he should be circumcised living then in sodom , not in abrahams house , and no mention made of him , when abraham circumcised his own house , and lots posterity being after uncircumcised jerem. . . and for job , what time soever he lived , it is likely he was an edomite ; who are reckoned for uncircumcised ier. . . and there are no passages that give any intimation of his acquaintance with israel . but if these serve not the turn , the example of cornelius undeniably uncircumcised , and not blamed for want of it , though undoubtedly in the covenant of grace , being one that feared god with all his house , and his prayers and alms heard , therefore he was not to be circumcised though in the covenant of grace , nor all that enter into covenant ought to be sealed with the initial seal , though capable , and no bar put in against them by god. i instanced in male infants of jews under eight daies old , who were not to be circumcised , though in covenant . mr. m. answers , to that of infants there was a peculiar exemption of them by god himself ; whether for any typical reason , or in regard they were not fit in nature to undergo so sharp a pain , as was to be endured in circumcision before the seventh and critical day was past , or whether for any other cause , i dispute not ; it is sufficient , god forbad them to have the seal till they were eight daies old . answ. this is a grant of the objection , and overthrows the proposition of mr. m. in his sermon ; all that are in covenant are to be sealed . and the forbidding , being onely by not appointing it , the proposition can be t●ue onely in this sense ; all those in covenant are to be circumcised , to whom it is appointed , and no other ; but infants are in covenant , and to them it is appointed to be sealed with the initial seal in the new testament : ergo. wherein i should grant the major , and deny the minor , and infer that without appointment interest in the covenant did not make capable , no not of circumcision , though it 's likely infants might have born it in the end of the seventh day as well as on the eighth . i alleged that no females in abrahams family , though in covenant , were to be circumcised . to this mr. m. answers . for the women , they were not subjectum capax circumcisionis , there was in them a natural impediment against it , therefore could it not be enjoined them : and suppose some men amongst them , or some who turned proselytes to them , had not had a praep●tium ( as some sort of eunuchs ) this ordinance had not reached them ; whether the wisdom of god purposely chose a sign that women might not be capable of receiving it , for some typical use , as some conjecture , it is sufficient they were not capable of it , and were exempted from it by god himself . answ. if it be true , which many authors relate , that the habassines , and iacobites do at this day , circumcise females ; then it is not true , they were uncapable of it by reason of natural impediment . but if it be true which mr. m. saith , yet gods chosing a sign of which they were not capable , and that for a typical use , when he might have chosen one as baptism , of which both s●xes were capable , it is an evidence , that it was not the will of god since abrahams time , and so forward , that all in covenant should be sealed with the initial seal , which was mr. ms. proposition . nor do his two limitations added in his defence help him . for if incapacity and non-appointment be a sufficient exemption from the initial seal , yea a prohibition of it , then his proposition is but what i contend for , that those in covenant to whom god appoints it and no other , are to have the initial seal ; which is as much as i would evince , that it is not bare interest in the covenant without institution or appointment that gives right to a person to claim either circumcision or baptism , nor warrants a baptizer to admit a person to baptism . and therefore though it were yielded that all infants of believers were in covenant , yet they have not right to either initial seal without a command , or institution concerning each rite . as for mr. ms. general proposition as he states it , as it advantageth it him not for the reason last given , so it may be granted , if he mean by exemption or particular dispensation the non-appointment of it . for then i am sure infants of believers are exempted from baptism till they be proved disciples of christ , or believers by profession ; which if it could be proved , we need not fetch it from circumcision and the covenant . from which they that deduce infant-baptism , do but in vain weary themselves and others , as they that seek to draw water out of a pumice stone . but there is some more in mr. m. about womens circumcision , which i must not omit . mr. m. in his sermon had answered , that women were circumcised virtually in the m●les . to which i answered , that a virtual circumcision was not enough to make good his argument : for then his syllogism must have four terms , thus . they that are in covenant must be sealed actually in their now persons , or virtually in others . but infants of believers are in the covenant , therefore they are to be sealed . if the conclusion be meant of actual sealing in their own persons then there are four terms , and more in the conclusion then in the premisses . but if it be meant disjunctively , they are to be sealed actually or virtually : then it is less than is to be proved , his business being to prove that they were to be sealed actually . for a virtual sealing is less than mr. m. would have , and might be granted without any detriment to the cause of anti-paedobaptism . to this mr m. makes no answer at all , but chargeth me with a scoff where there was none , tells me it is like refuting bellarmine with , thou liest : whereas i did shew wherein his answer was insufficient , and that by putting his syllogism into form , according to his own meaning , and then shewing how it would not conclude what he should prove . and to this in his defence he makes no answer , but tells us , what his plain meaning was , which is nothing to the present point : he should have shewed how , with that exposition or limitation his argument would prove actual sealing of infants in their own persons . but to slight a reason and speak nothing to it , is not to answer , but to shift . but i also said , to speak exactly , women were not circumcised virtually in the males : for that supposeth they might receive it in their own persons , wheras it had been a sin in them to be circumcised , god not appointing it : which is confirmed by the like , it would be sin for the male to be circumcised afore the eighth day , sith it was not appointed : which may now be confirmed by mr. ms. words , that god forbad them to have the seal till they were eight daies old . to this saith mr. m. but first give me leave to observe by the way how you pinch me with a point of law , that no man can be said virtually to have that by his proxy or atturney , which he might not actually receive himself in his own person . i question whether this be good law ; but i am confident it is bad divinity ; sure we sinned virtually in adam , yet we could not actually , though the sin of adam be ours by imputation . the sun is virtually hot , yet philosophers say , it 's not actually . and the jews of old offered to god such things by the hands of the priests , who were their proxies in that work , which they might not offer in their own persons , yea and received such things by the hand of the high priest ( who bare their names in the most holy place ) which they might not receive in their own persons immediately : and the saints now in this world do virtually and quoad effectum juris , receive some such privileges in christ their advocate , who in their right is at gods right hand , which here they are not capable of receiving immediatrly in their own persons . answ. my words were not as mr. m. recited them , but thus . he is said virtually to have a thing by another , as by a proxy or atturney , that might receive it by himself ; yet quoad effectum juris , according to the effect of law another's receiving it is , as if he had received it . in which i understand by [ having a thing ] that having a thing which is by possession of it , as a benefit , privilege , commodity , and by [ might receive it ] without any prohibition in law , and that he receives it not in his own person , is onely from some temporary impediment , as minority , absence or the like . and this according to that skill i have in such terms , i conceive still to be the meaning of them . nor do mr. ms. instances take me any whit off from it , being without fear of being chargeable with bad law or divinity . for our sinning in adam is not receiving something as a benefit : the suns heat is natural , not by vertue of any political law , it is not having as a proxy or atturney for another ; the high priests offering for the people was an action in their stead , not receiving a benefit for them , and what they received for the people which they might not receive in their own persons immediately was not by reason of any prohibition , but from some other cause , nor were they in imparting it , the peoples proxies or atturneys , but gods : were it an answer from god or any other thing they received for them , if god had immediately communicated it to them , it had not been their sin . and the like may be said of what christ receives for us as our advocate . but the circumcising of women had been a sin forbidden , according to mr. marshalls and others doctrine before recited , they were prohibited to be circumcised , it being limitted to the males on the . day . mr. m. addes . i also obiter desire you to remember this expression of yours , that it had been a sin for a child to have been circumcised after the eight day was past , and try how you will reconcile this with another opinion of yours delivered elsewhere ; viz. that circumcision might be administred oftner then once ; surely those other times must be after the . day . answ. where i deliver this , that circumcision might be administred oftner than once , i remember not , except in my examen , page . however i conceive no necessity of circumcision or baptism above once , yet i profess my self unsatisfyed in this , that there is either a command that a person be but once circumcised , or a person once onely baptized . and my reason of the speech is from hence . cor. . . the apostle saith , is one called circumcised , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , let him not be drawn up , that is , let him not draw up his foreskin : we translate it , let him not become uncircumcised . whence it may be perceived , that some jews had an art to draw up their fore-skin . now in such a case , while the law stood in force , i conceive he was bound to be circumcised again , because it was to abide in his flesh , gen. . . nor do my words at all contradict this , when i say more fully then mr. m. recites them ; it had been a sin for a child to be circumcised afore , or after the eigth day in them that altered or swerved from the appointment of god : where i make the sin not to be the doing of it , on the eighth day , and then doing it again ( though i deny not but unnecessarily to do it after the eight day had been sin , that day being determined for it ) but not doing it that day which god appointed by those that altered or swerved from that appointment unnecessarily : which in the case mentioned , and any other of the like , might be done after the eighth day . but m. m. will confirm his proofs , that the women were circumcised in the men . my first , saith he to me , was , that the whole house of israel are in the scripture said to be circumcised . you answer , that by the whole house of israel must not be meant all , but the major part . but sir do you imagine that any of your judicious readers can be satisfyed with this answer , when ( you know well enough ) that the circumcision is put for the church and people of god in opposition to the uncircumcised , that is , all the rest of the world who were not the people of god. when peter was to go to the circumcision , and paul to the gentiles to preach the gospel ; does not circumcision include the women jews as much as the men , in opposition to gentiles , as well as the word gentiles includes women gentiles as well as the men , to whom paul was sent ? gal. . , . surely it must needs be granted , that not only the major or nobler part , but the whole nation of the jews both men and women , are there meant by circumcision , which could not have been , if in some sense they were not to be accounted circumcised . answ. my answer might satisfie any judicious reader , specially if the texts had been fairly set down by mr. m. wherein i shew all israel , and all the house of israel must be understood synecdochically , sam. . . acts . . acts . . and if in the term [ circumcision ] be not a synecdoche of the whole for the part ; not onely every individual in israel must be in some sense accounted circumcised , but be actually circumcised also in their own persons . nor against such a synecdoche doth it make , that circumcision stands in opposition to the uncircumcised , which is meant of every individual . for neither is it true , when the uncircumcised are mentioned , it is meant of every individual , there being many of those nations that were circumcised ; and if it were true , yet the opposition doth not prove every individual jew circumcised , any more then when they are called the holy nation in opposition to the gentiles : as when it was said , israel was holiness to the lord , jerem. . . every israelite or jew must be counted holy in some sense : but the terms are attributed synecdochically . and for the other instance , i grant circumcision must include gal. . . women as well as men , because peter was to go to them : but this proves not that women were in some sense accounted circumcised in the males , but that they are part of the nation which were called the circumcision synecdochically , because of the males . and for the term gentiles , there must be in like manner a synecdoche conceived of the whole for a part , else he should be sent to preach to infant males as well as women of years . secondly , saith mr. m. i argued thus , no uncircumcised might eat the passoever ; ergo their women might not have eaten it , if in some sense they had not been circumcised . your answer is , this is to be limitted pro subjecta ma●eria , none that ought to be circumcised might eat the passeover , unless they were circumcised . but this answer is altogether insufficient . for where is this distinction of yours found or founded in the word of god ? other distinctions about eating the passeover are cleerly found : the clean might eat it , the unclean might not eat it , the circumcised might , the uncircumcised might not : but of your limitation there is altum silentium . answ. mr. ms. conclusion is , that in some sense women were circumcised , and before in some sense they were counted circumcised , neither of which is the same with this [ they were circumcised virtually in the males , or the males were circumcised in their stead as their proxy or atturney . ] . my answer was right , and to his demand , where it is found in the word of god ? i answer by another demand , where is his limitation found in gods word , that women might eat the passeover , because they were in some sense accounted circumcised ? sure the words are , exod. . . no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof , not as mr. m. none but those that are counted in some sense circumcised may eat thereof : if there be in scripture that which doth necessitate to a limitation of that speech , my limitation is as well in scripture as his is : yea my limitation is plain and easie , whereas his limitation is liable to this objection , that when gods law requires persons to be circumcised that they might eat the passeover , if mr , ms. limitation or explication be good , it should require no more but this , that persons in some sense should be accounted circumcised . for so mr. m. understands the law , and then , though the males were not actually circumcised , but virtually , in some sense , so accounted they might eat it , without breach of the law , which absurdity doth not follow on my limitation , but follows inevitably on mr. ms. . saith mr. m. i demand further , where is there any command or institution for women to eat the passeover ( more than for women now to eat the lords supper ) unless it be founded upon circumcision ? yet in practice we know they did eat it ? and if they eat it not as circumcised persons , tell me by what right they did it . answ. i have proved examen part . . s. . pag. . postscript to my apology s. . that cor. . . & . . and . . acts . . are express precept and example for womens receiving the lords supper . and for eating the paseover , there is an expresse precept , that all the congregation of israel shall keep it , exod . . in which women were meant , and they were to eat according to the number of the souls v. . and no leaven was to be in their habitation , v. . therfore either women must eat the passeover , or else they must not eat bread : so that we need not go to circumcision for womens eating the passeover . yea , if we use no other way than that of mr. m. it will not be proved that women ought to eat it . for exodus . . no mention is made of any circumcised who are to eat it , but males ; and though it be said , no uncircumcised might eat , yet it is not said , all circumcised must eat , much less they that are only in some sense counted circumcised . but mr. m. seeks to make his advantage of this point thus . if you say they were included in the houshold exod. . , . every houshold was to eat the paschal lamb , and there was no exception of women ; i reply , first grant but the same consequence , that when we read so frequently in the new t. that whole housholds were baptized , and no exception of children , that therefore all the children in those housholds were baptized , and this controversy is quickly ended . answ. if it were granted that we had no other way to prove women were to eat the paschal lamb ( which yet we need not , as i have shewed ) but from exod. . , . in that every houshold was to eat the lamb , and there was no exception of women , yet the consequence were not good ; whole housholds were baptized , therefore infants , because not expresly excepted . for as exod. . , infants are excepted from being required to eat the lamb , though not in express words , yet because the thing to be done was not such as could agree to infants of a few daies old , suppose eight or nine . so where act. . , . and . . cor. . . the houshold is said to be baptized , besides this , that no infants are expressed , in the same chapter or elsewhere , the speech is plainly interpreted to be meant of those that heard the word , and believed , as acts the eleventh chapter , and fourteenth verse , and ch . . v. , . and . . cor. . . as if the holy ghost had of purpose prevented this misconstruction and frivolous consequence of paedobaptists . but saith mr. m. i add further , it is not said the whole houshold shall eat it , for all uncircumcised persons were forbidden to eat it , and none but circumcised persons had warrant to eat it . answ. it is said , exod. . . they shall eat the lamb according to the number of souls , i. e. hominum pisc. schol. in locum , every man according to his eating , which is a plain precept for women to eat who could eat . yea further , saith mr. m. suppose some words in the institution should reach the jewish women , yet how doth it reach the women gentiles who should prove proselytes to them ? for exodus chapter . verse , . there is order taken for the male stranger , let all his males be circumcised , and then let him come near and keep it , but there is not any word that takes order for the strangers females . answer . it is said verse fourty seven , that all the congregation of israel shall keep it , and the proselytes of righteousnesse , women as well as men were of that congregation , and verse fourty nine , it is said , one law shall be to him that is homeborn , and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you : if then the law appointed the israelitish women to eat , the same law appointed the proselyte women to eat . so that notwithstanding mr. ms. vain hope , my exception against the consequence of his argument , they are foederati ; therefore they are to be signati , stand good and it is not yet proved , that bare interest in the covenant genesis . or the covenant of grace did intitle to circumcision , much less to baptism , which were enough to overthrow his first argument . but sith it is my task , i will now go on to the rest of his dispute , taking in by the way master blakes third section of the . chapter of his vindic . foederis . sect . xix . mr. blakes exceptions against my speeches in the point about the connexion between the covenant , and initial seal , are refelled . mr. blake asserts a reality of connexion between the covenant and initial seal , and first he meddles with my examen , and then with my anti-paedobaptism . to my objection that the proposition is not true , that all that were federate in abrahams family , were to be signed , for neither males afore the eighth day , nor females were to be circumcised , besides his avouching master marshall● answer as sufficient , which is reviewed before , he saith , is there no connexion between them , because he that receives into covenant and appoints the seal , hath prescribed a time when it shall be applyed ? to which i say , it proves that there is not a connexion between being federate , and to be signed , to make this proposition true , all that are federate are to be signed , barely in that they are federate . for they are federate the first , second , third , fourth , fifth , sixth , seventh day , as well as the eighth , yet not to be signed , whereas if there was such a connexion between them according to gods will , that the one being put , the other is to be put , they would be to be signed as soon as ever they are federate . and if it be gods will that they should be signed , but not till the appointed time after , i might say that though infants were federate , yet they were not to be signed with baptism till gods appointed time , which is not till they be disciples , and so infant baptism is not proved from their being in covenant , the major proposition , all that are in covenant are to be signed , being true only with this limitation , in the appointed time , which is not for baptism till they be disciples . and whereas in answer to my objection , that if infants have right to the seal by being in covenant , then they have right to the lords supper , he answers . . that in baptism there is no more of necessity than to be passive . this is false , for baptism is enjoined as a duty , and such as is to have repentance and faith antecedent mark chap. . . acts the . chap. . acts chap. . verse . . he grants that infants have true title to the lords supper , jus ad rem , not jus in re , a right to it , yet by reason of infancy have their actual interest suspended . but . still mr. blake speaks of the lords supper , and of baptism , as of privileges meerly , whereas the scripture speaks of each as a duty as well as a privilege . . by the same distinction an answer is given to him concerning infants baptism , that though they have the right to it , yet by reason of infancy , the actual interest of it is to be suspended , they being no more able to profess the faith , till they be grown to some riper age then a cradle king to rule a kingdome . so that mr. blakes answers yield more exceptions against mr. ms. argument , confirm it not at al , but shew how we may grant his major , and yet so limit it that it will be too short of proving baptism of federate persons in infancy : and these passages of master blake appear to be cavils and not an●wers . he next sets upon the fifth section of the first part of my review , and excepts , . that i shew not where to find mr. baillees words . but if he had looked into my letter mentioned , he had found them quickly in the third section . . that i denyed the metaphor of a seal to be rightly made , the genus of a rite , as of baptism , to which he replies in his flirting fashion . we shall expect another letter to shew saint pauls definition , rom. . . to be alike light ( who runs upon the same errour , if an errour ) when he saies that circumcision is a sign and seal , there is the genus and the differentia lies in these words to distinguish it from other signs , and seals of the righteousness of faith . the nature of a sacrament stands in a figure , and the whole efficacy of it in the use . and how else then should the nature and use of it be held out ? to which i answer , paul doth not give a definition , rom. . . of circumcision , much less doth he define a sacrament in general . every definition is reciprocal with the thing defined , but mr. bl. i presume will not say ; every circumcision is a seal of the righteousness of faith , and every seal of the righteousness of faith is circumcision . besides individuals are not wont to be defined , but what is there said is said of the singular circumcision of abraham , and no other . the title given to abrahams circumcision doth but shew what the use of it was to him , not what was the constant nature , and use of it on and to others . which appears from the particularizing circumstances so exactly noted by the apostle , to wit , the times of his justification and circumcision , which do shew that it was appropriated to abrahams circumcision , on his own body , what he there said of circumcision . there is no more reason to make this the definition of circumcision [ the seal of the righteousness of faith ] then to make that [ tim . . the root of all evil ] the definition of the love of money , or that [ heb. . . the end of all strife ] the definition of an oath , or that [ v. . the anchor of the soul firm and stable ] the definition of hope , or that [ heb. . . the evidence of things not seen ] the definition of faith a seal cannot be the genus of it , being a metaphor , for a metaphor shews not what it is , but what it is like . circumcision is an action as it is from the agent , as in the subject a passion . the relation that comes to it is not from its nature , but by institution , and is the end of it , rather than the genus , rather for what it is , than what it is . a seal is an artificial body compound of a substance and figure , which cannot be said of circumcision . what mr. bl. saith , that the nature of a sacrament stands in a figure , cannot be true of such a figure as is in a seal , for so baptism , the passeover , the lords supper should be no sacrament sith they do not make any figure on the body , nor of figure of speech , for so a sacrament should not be a visible sign , but an audible . i grant the use of it is to resemble by a visible sign some other thing , as the breaking bread , christs body broken , and in that sense it may be called a figure as augustine called the bread the figure of christs body . but the use belongs to the difference to distinguish it from the same action or passion used to another purpose , not to the genus . and yet sign and seal of the righteousnesse of faith , cannot be the difference to distinguish a sacrament from the preaching of the gospel , for the preaching of the gospel by word or writing is a sign or seal of the righteousness of faith . what is said rom. . . that abraham received the sign of circumcision , the seal of the righteousness of faith , is not all one with this [ a seal of the covenant of grace ] for it is added [ which he had yet , being uncircumcised ] and therefore was a sign not of a promise or covenant , concerning a thing to be done , but of a thing accomplished or already done . i see not how rom. . . either the general nature of a sacrament , or the special nature of circumcision may be said to be defined . nor do i conceive it true which mr. bl. saith , the whole efficacy of a sacrament is in the use : i suppose baptism , and the lords supper have their efficacy in comforting , moving to holiness , love , &c. after the use . the nature and use of a sacrament may be otherwise held out then mr. bl. doth , which i now omit . it is sufficient at present to shew the emptiness of mr. bls. dictates . and for my rejecting of the common use of the terms of seals of the covenant , and initial seals as synonymous to sacraments and baptism , especially in disputes wherein proper terms should be used , i have given sufficient reason from the abuses of paedobaptists inferring errours from a late devised term , and imposing on mens consciences : yet i profess , if baptism were granted to be a seal or initial seal , that i think that it would not follow , that it hath that relation to the covenant ; that infants in covenant must not be denied it , but that it is a frivolous argument , infants are in covenant , therefore they must have the initial seal of the covenant : for which if i had no other reason , yet that one of mr. bl. that though a person be in covenant , and have right to the seal , yet he is not to have it till the appointed time , it were sufficient to justifie my censure . mr. bl. excepts against my speech , that to have the promise , and to be a disciple or believer , are not all one , for he conceives to have a promise in scripture phrase is to possesse it , as those jews after the flesh did possess , rom. . ▪ and how to possesse a promise without faith , he doth not yet understand . whereto i reply , that i find the term [ promise ] used in scripture sometimes metonymically for the thing promised , , as luke● ● . . when christ saith , i send the promise of the father upon you , he means the holy ghost promised , and it is true in this sense , to have a promise is to possesse it . but in proper acception the term [ promise ] notes the act of the person promising , as gal. . . to abraham and his seed were the promises made , or spoken . so likewise v. , . and in this sense he hath a promise , who hath not possession of the thing promised , and thus we usually say , i have not yet such an office , revenue , estate , &c. but i have a promise of it . in which sense i took it , and so it is true , that in this sense , a man may have the promise , and not be a believer or disciple as yet . and thus i conceive it taken in all the three places in the new testament cor. . . tim. . . heb. . . and in this sense a person may have a promise afore he is a believer . mr. blake further excepts against me : that . i make these terms all one , to have a promise , and to be a child of the promise . . that i make a child of the promise , rom. . . to be all one with to be an elect person , as isaac and jacob , v. , , . were children of the promise , to whom the promise was made before they were born . but mr. blake saith , that to have a promise , and to be a child of promise , are two different things in scripture ; yet shews not the difference between them . in that expression rom. . . the child of the promise ( according to the usuall hebraisms , child of light , child of wrath , son of perdition , which note the person who is the subject or object of those several terms attributed ) is a person of whom , or for whom , the promise is made , and so it is all one with [ to have the promise . ] but saith m. bl. if the child of the promise were all one with to be elect , then ( according to me ) all the jews according to the flesh were elect persons ; they had the promises , yea those that were actors in christs death acts . . which he must needs yield to be an absurdity . to which i reply , i do not conceive how this is true according to me , that if children of the promise be all elect , all the jews according to the flesh were elect persons . sure i no where make all the jews according to the flesh children of the promise . yea the text rom. . . is so express against it , that the children of the flesh , are denied to be children of gods , that is , children of the promise , which the words shew to be equipollent . yea it is the express determination , v. . that all that are of israel , to wit , by natural generation , are not israel , to whom the promise was made ; nor all children ( that is , of god , and of the promise ) who are the seed of abraham , v. . but that no other were children of the promise , though the seed natural of abraham and isaac : but elect persons , the apostle doth not onely assert , but prove it in esau and jacob , v. , , , . it is true , rom. . . it is said the promises were the israelites : but whatever the promises there meant were , whether of spiritual or corporal good things , yet it follows not that of every israelite were the promises any more than that of every israelite , v. . was christ according to the flesh . nor acts . . is it said that all the jews according to the flesh had the promises . but that the promise was to them , their children and all afar off , whom god should call : the promise is attributed to none but the called of god. the generality of anti-arminian protestants make children of the promise to be all one with the elect , rom. . . some i allege in my exam. part . . sect . . some more in my praecursor , and more i meet with in my reading . it is not true which mr. bl. saith , that isaac being born by promise , all his posterity originally were of the same birth , for the apostle concludes the contrary of esau , rom. . , , . the text gal. . . is rightly brought to shew that all jews according to the flesh , are not the children of the promise , but as mr. dioson , we , that is believing christians , who were born after the spirit , and presented by them that were born after the flesh , v. . that is , by the unbelieving jew , who stuck to the legal covenant . nor need we say , that all the visible churches of galatia were born after the spirit , but onely that the true believers in them were so . nor is there a word of any privileges inferiour to justification , as the series of the text shews , and many learned protestants cleerly express . that which master blake saith , he will maintain , that every one in covenant is a believer , a disciple , that believers are same formally , such as in act assent to gospel revelations ; some virtually , such as have the privileges of professing believers , that infants in covenant are virtually believers , in that they are honoured with the privileges of believers , and that this distinction the scripture warrants , are all vain dictates , there being not one scripture that ever calls any a believer from a privilege , but from the act of assent or profession of faith , nor is there the least colour for it out of scripture to call infants in covenant believers without their own act of assent or profession of faith , and therefore i let pass these speeches of m. bl. as idle unproved talk , of which his book is full . mr. bl. excepts against my speech , some not yet born , some not yet called are in the covenant , have the promise of grace made to them . i have read ( saith he ) of a covenant entered with those that at the instant time of the making of the covenant were present , and with those that were not present , deut. . . with men of years , and them with their little ones , deut. . . but i read not of a covenant actually made with any unborn . answ. my expression [ are in covenant ] i confess that i remember not used in the scripture , yet it is usual in the writings of paedobaptists , who usually say , infants are in the covenant of grace with their parents . the assemblies larger catechism avoucheth infants of parents , professing faith in christ within the covenant . mr. m. in his sermon p. . , &c. and this expression of theirs i knew not how to conceive they meant otherwise then thus , infants have gods promise of grace made to them , or for them , as in the directory , the promise is made to believers and their seed . for infants said to be in the covenant must be so by some act either their own , or the administrators , or gods. not by any act of their own , for they do nothing to that effect ; not by the administrator of baptisms act , for he doth nothing but baptize , and if his act be bringing into covenant then bringing into covenant is all one with baptizing , and if an infidels child be baptized it is in covenant . besides paedobaptists assert they are within the covenant afore they are baptized , as the directory saith , they are foederally holy before baptism it remains then that it is by gods promise . now surely gods promise to abraham , and his seed gen. . . which is usually made the promise whereby infants of believers are in covenant , was many thousand years since , . years before the law , gal. . . . therefore even according to the usual language of paedobaptists infants of believers are in covenant afore they are born : which mr. bl. had no cause to carp at ( as he doth ) but that it is almost all his art , especially when i had to prevent it , so distinctly added to shew my meaning [ have the promise of grace made to them ] if mr. bl. have any other way whereby infants are in the covenant , as the parents vow , or profession , or suretie for them , according to it ; i suppose , infants may be said to be in covenant afore they are born , sith such vows , profession and promises may be made for them afore they are born let 's consider what m. b saith . he tels us , he reads not of a covenant actually made with any unborn . and as i conceive by his appendix to his vindic. foederis , as an addition to his first chapter , his reason is , because he conceives that it is of the general nature of a covenant properly so called , that there be a mutual contract and agreement , which i shall examine when i consider mr. cobbers part . . c. . sect . . of his iust vindic. for present , if this be true , neither can a covenant be actually made with an infant born , sith an infant born can no more contract , or agree , or consent , then one unborn . nevertheless i conceive , there is a covenant actually made with persons unborn gen. . . where god saith , this is the token of the covenant which i make between me and you , and every living creature , that is , with you , for perpetual generations : which doth express a covenant actually made with every living creature of all flesh for perpetual generations , therefore for thousands of persons unborn . yea where he saith , he readeth of a covenant entered into with those that were not present , deut. . . he reads of a covenant made with persons unborn , as piscator , ainsworth , iackson , grotius , the new annot. the notes out of the arch-bishop of yorks library , &c. do conceive , and reason proves it : sith that covenant was made only with israel , not with any other people then existent , but there was none of all israel then born , which was not there that day , as appears from v. . therfore those that were not there with them that day , can be no other then persons unborn , and so mr. blake saith not true , that he hath not read of a covenant actually made with any unborn . but were it granted that by them that were not present were meant persons existent then , there is no reason why a covenant may not as well be said to be actually made with the unborn as with the absent , who do not express any actual consent or agreement . surely if it be true that the covenant of grace was made with christ afore the world for all the elect , or in the beginning of time , gen. . . or at his death or resurrection , as many divines speak , and sundry texts seem to intimate , gal. . . cor. . . tit. . . tim. . . joh. . , , . iohn . , , , , . iob. . , , , . isa. . , . psal. . , . heb. . , . heb. . , , . heb. . . heb. . . it must of necessity be made with many persons unborn . but mr. blake adds . mr. tombs seems here to make the covenant and election to be one and the same , as by this passage , so by that which follows ; but these scripture still distinguishes . to which i say , it is true that i make the elect and those that are in the covenant of grace one and the same , but neither in that passage or any other , do i make the covenant and election to be one and the same , as mr. blake mistakes me . he saith further ; we find promises and prophecies , as to the taking into covenant in time to come , ezek. . . but not any such respective to election . to which i say , the prophecy of taking into covenant , ierem. . , . is respective to election , or else god promises to write his laws in their hearts , and not to remember their sins who are not elect . he goes on . all the promises of call of the gentiles is to bring them into the privileges of glory , formerly proper to the jews . to be in covenant was their great privilege : and this is not conferred on the gentiles before all time , but done in time , isaiah . . when he brings them light , then he brings them into covenant . to which i say , the jews privileges were some of them ( as those rom. . , . ) such as god never promised to the gentiles to bring them to , he never promised to make any entire nation little ones , servants , &c. to be his visible church . but god promised to the gentiles the saving privileges of justification , adoption , regeneration , eternal life , ephes. . , . and this was onely to true believers or elect persons , verse . , . and these were in covenant in respect of gods act of promise before they were in being , in which sense alone infants may be said to be in the covenant of grace ; but in respect of the conferring of the things promised and the possession of them by faith , so neither they then were in covenant ephes. . . nor are infants now . he adds , that text rom. . , , is too notoriously abused ; a prophecy of their future call into covenant , is made a proof that they are already in covenant , upon that account we may make the resurrection ( if not past , as the antient hereticks hymen●us and phile●us affirmed , tim. . . yet ) at least present . there is like promise of the resurrection of the dead , as there is of the call of the jews into covenant , and resembled to the resurrection , as ezek. . so also rom. . . if by vertue of the text alleged they be already in covenant , by virtue of like texts the dead are already raised . answ. had mr. bl. either heeded my words , or been willing to give them any fair interpretation , he had forborn this censure , in which he doth too notoriously abuse me . i said , the jews , rom. . , . not yet born , or not yet called are in the covenant , have the promise of grace made to them , which later words i put in on purpose to shew in what sense i said they were in covenant , to wit , in that they had the promise of grace made to them ( in which sense i took the paedobaptists to mean , that infants are in the covenant of grace , nor do i yet know how they can mean otherwise ) and this is proved plainly from rom. . , . that god hath promised to save all israel , to turn away ungodliness from iacob , and saith , this is his covenant unto them , when he shall take away their sins . i say not they are in covenant in respect of the things promised as already possessed , but that they are in covenant in respect of gods act of promise , they have promise of that which they shall have when they are called , as i often express my self : which being rightly understood , the cavil of mr. bl. vanisheth of it self , for though the resurrection be not past , because of a promise of it , yet the term covenant being the same with a promise they may be said to be in covenant in respect of a promise made to them , who yet enjoy not the thing promised . which is confirmed even from the common allegation of paedobaptists , who say , that by virtue of the promise , gen. . . to be a god to abraham and his seed , infants of believers are in the covenant , which can be true only in respect of the promise made , which is as much before they are born as after . to this mr. bl. answers , . that this can be an argument barely ad hominem ; seeing though we affirm , yet he denies any such covenant . i reply : . that it is true that i deny that gen. . . there is a covenant made to believers and their seed , but i deny not the covenant to be to abraham and his seed , nor do i deny elect infants to be therein comprehended , and that afore they are born . . if it be only an argument barely ad hominem , yet it is sufficient , till the tenet on which it proceeds be disclaimed by them , which mr. bl. hath not yet the heart to do . but he answers , . i say , as they were in being , so they were also in covenant , not actually , but potentially , which is nothing to master tombes his purpose . i reply . to be potentially in covenant may be meant either in respect of possession of the things promised , and so i grant they were in covenant onely potentially , or in respect of the making of the covenant , and so they were in covenant actually , that is , the promise was made to them , and this is enough for my purpose to prove a person may be in covenant unborn , in which sense onely infants are in covenant , and therefore if infants thus being in covenant make them visible church-members , and give right to their baptism , by the same reason unborn or uncalled infidels have right to baptism . mr. bl. page . saith , he willingly closeth with me , where i say , that the judgement of charity is no rule to a minister whom to baptize ; nor do i dissent from what he saith , if his meaning be as the words seem , i as well know when any man is in covenant , as he knows when he is a believer : when any man doth avouch himself to be one of the people of god , as he knows when they professe to believe . i do confesse that by the same knowledge whereby any man is known , and so far as he is known to be a believer , he is known so far to be in covenant ; he that avoucheth himself to be one of gods people , and that professeth to believe is in appearance , and to be taken as in covenant , and a believer . but how doth mr. bl. know that this or that infant is in covenant and to be baptized ? not by gods promise , for there is no such promise of any gentile believer , that all his infants , or any one in particular shall be his people , either by regenerating grace , or outward ordinance : not by profession of believing or avouching himself to be one of the people of god , for no infant doth , or can without miracle do it ; therefore it must be by a judgement of charity ( which mr. bl. agrees with me to be no rule to a minister whom to baptize ) or no way . and consequently were it granted ( which is not ) that being in covenant in respect of gods promise of being a god to some infants of believers did give a title to baptism , yet no minister could upon this ground baptize this or that particular infant , nor any infant now existent , sith he neither doth nor can know without special revelation , that god hath made this promise or covenant to it . what he addes , and it appears when it is brought home , this is all his ground of challenge of baptism of persons in covenant , because their interest in covenant is not manifest , is not right . for i assert first , that bare interest in the covenant , that is , as i have often said , this thing , that god hath promised to be his god , doth not of it self intitle a person to baptism , sith god hath made this promise to thousands yet unborn , and of those that are born to thousands yet uncalled , perhaps jews , yet professed unbelievers , whom no man can say rightly to have title to baptism . . that if it were granted this interest in the covenant did intitle to baptism , yet no minister can by this rule justify his baptizing of an infant , sith he neither hath , nor can have , ordinarily , knowledge , that the infant he baptizeth hath this interest in the covenant . what he saith of me , that i seem to make election and interest in covenant commensurate ; all elect are interessed in covenant , and all interessed in covenant are elect ; i do grant it , being understood of the covenant of evangelical grace , of regeneration , justification , &c. in respect of gods promise of it , and i have often shewed that both paul , rom. . . and many of the soundest protestant divines say the same . but what he addes of me ; and elect infants ( as he hath more then once acknowledged ) might be baptized in case their election were known , is mr. bls. mistake of me , who do no where say , that they may be baptized in case their election were made known , but that infants born might be baptized in case their regeneration , faith , sanctification were made known . whereas a person not yet begotten , may be known to be elect , but not to be regenerated , or made a believer . and by my tenet there is a bar against baptizing of infants , in that they want title to baptism ; and if they have title , we want knowledge of it . as for paedobaptists tenent i profess , i do not know what they count a bar against baptizing of infants according to their tenent , there being such uncertainty in their tenents , some holding all are to be baptized in case of danger of death , some all born in a christian nation , some , all who are in families of persons professing the christian faith , though the parents were infidels ; some , onely the children of church-members after the way they call congregational ; some judging of the interest in the covenant by a judgement of charity ; some by a judgement of certainty . what my tenet is , i have shewed already . though i conceive that christs words , mat. . . did import that the infants were elect , yet i do not say , that christ was displeased with the disciples for being ignorant of their election and justification , and for that reason not admitting them to be blessed by him , but for that knowing christ was the great prophet , who was sent to bless , they did hinder those that were brought to be blessed from access to him . as for mr. bls. question , who say that the covenant of grace without any other command is a command to baptize infants , i think mr. stephens said it when he made a convertibility between the word of promise , and the word of command ; and whereas mr. bl. saith , if christ had never given a command for it , neither old nor young ought to have been baptized , it is true ; nor in my speech of his , and mr. stephens tenet did i mean when i said [ without any other command ] to exclude the institution of baptism , but it being supposed to be instituted by christ , paedobaptists do frequently prove a command to baptise infants by vertue of being in covenant , without any particular command of baptizing them , or any other description that comprehends them , as mr. marshalls first argument in his sermon , mr. bls. second argument , vindic. foed . chap. . sect . . s●●w . mr. geree calls denying infant-baptism , a defalking the covenant , and mr. bl. himself maintains the third speech , that the command to baptize disciples is all one as to command to baptize persons in covenant , when he saith , p. . every disciple is in covenant , and everyone in covenant is a disciple and for his arguments asserting that infants are of christs disciples what i have met with either are answered already in the second part of this review , or will be answered in this part ( i● god permit ) my conceit being still more confirmed by fuller examination of them , that they are very frivolous . sect . xx. the exceptions which in the first part of my review , sect . . are made against the proof of connexion between the covenant and initial seal , are confirmed against mr. blake , vindic . foed . . ch . sect . . mr. bl. proceeds to vindicate the proofs for the reality of connexion between the covenant and initial seal from gen. . and acts . , . from my answers . and to my answer that the particle rendered [ therefore gen. . . ] may be rendered [ and , or , but thou ] he saith , . we have no reason but that it may be an illative as well as a copulative ; and being an illative particle , he hath no exception against the strength of it . whereto i reply : there need be no reason given , why it should be read [ and or but ] and not [ therefore ] but this , that either of those are the usual acceptions of the particle , that [ and ] is the most frequent use of it , that it may well be so in that place , and that learned interpreters do so render it . which being not denyed , there is no strength in that proof which is made barely from the term [ therefore gen. . . ] to infer that to them belongeth the initial seal , whether of the jewish or the christian church , who have interest or title to the covenant of grace . for he that will prove from it , must assert that it must be rendered [ therefore ] for a certain conclusion cannot be inferred from an uncertain medium . whereas mr : bl. only asserts , it may be an illative as well as a copulative particle , and not that it must be , he intimates a grant of what i answer , that it may be a copulative as well as an illative particle , what he adds , that it being an illative particle , i have no exception against the strength of it , is manifestly untrue , sith i added three more exceptions against the proof of that proposition from thence . but master blake proves the same from verse . taking in acts . . and would have me at more leisure find answer to this argument . that which god himself calls by the name of a covenant ought not to be separated from it : but god calls circumcision by the name of a covenant ; ergo they ought not to be separated . to which i answer , first , if the conclusion be good , then circumcision and the covenant ought not to be separated ; but the covenant according to master marshall , master blake , &c. remains the same ; therfore according to master blake circumcision ought to remain still to our children , they being in covenant . secondly , if the conclusion were good , then the females and males afore the eight day being in covenant must be circumcised : thirdly , the conclusion is neither of those propositions , which were to be proved , to wit , . that the reason why abrahams infants were to be circumcised , was their interest in the covenant ▪ for though it were granted that circumcision and the covenant ought not to be separated , yet it proves not the reason of this conjunction to be from interest in the covenant , sith it may be , yea , is indeed to be deduced from the command . . to them belongeth the initial seal , whether of the jewish or christian church , who have interest or title to the covenant of grace . for the conclusion of mr. bl. doth not say any thing at all concerning the initial seal of the christian church , but only of circumcision . fourthly , to his syllogism i answer , . that god calls circumcision the covenant only by a metonymia of the thing signified for the sign . . that [ ought not to be separated from it ] may be understood of every person that hath interest in the covenant , or of every person to whom it is commanded , and when it is not dispensed with : in the former sense i deny the major , it is not true , that what god himself calls by the name of a covenant ought not to be separated from it , or that gods calling any sign the covenant , proves that all in covenant are to have that sign on them . for neither was it true of circumcision , sith neither were males afore the eight day or females in covenant , nor any in the wilderness to be circumcised , god either not commanding it , or dispensing with the observation of it ; nor is it true of any other sign called the covenant ( if there be any ) without gods command undispensed with . mr. blake saith further , . let him consider the relation in which the apostle puts this sacrament of circumcision to the covenant rom. . . an instituted appointed sign and seal is not to be divided from that which it signifies , and seal is not to be divided from that which it signifies and seals ; circumcision was an instituted appointed sign and seal of the covenant ; therefore it is not to be divided from it . answ. . neither doth the apostle , rom. . . make circumcision the sign and seal of the covenant mentioned gen. . nor of any covenant to be kept for the time to come , but of a benefit abraham had before obtained gen. . . to wit , righteousness by faith , being yet uncircumcised , nor is any ones circumcision besides abrahams , on his own person , called , the seal of the righteousness of faith . . the conclusion is , neither of the propositions to be proved , that the reason why abrahams infants were to be circumcised , was their interest in the covenant , that to them belongeth the initial seal , whether of the jewish , or the christian church , who have interest or title to the covenant of grace . . the major proposition is true in this sense , an instituted appointed sign and seal , is not to be divided in our conceit of it , from that object or thing which it signifies or seals . but in this sense the conclusion would be true only of an intellectual division from the object , which is nothing to the purpose . that sense in which it would be to his purpose is this , an instituted appointed sign and seal , is not to be divided , that is , not to be withheld or denied to any person or subject , who hath by promise or possession interest in the thing signifyed and sealed by that sign . but in this sense it is false , for circumcision was not to be to any female , to whom yet the promise of canaan signified by it , belonged ; nor indeed doth any such sign belong to any person meerly from interest in the thing signified , but from the command and will of the appointer . i said if [ therefore gen. . . ] were allowed to be the best reading , yet that the inference , v. . should be made from the promise only , v. . and not as well , if not rather from the promise , verse . i find no sufficient reason given . to this master blake replies , this reference engageth me , . in a contradiction to my self , exercit. page . the promise of the gospel was confirmed to abraham by the sign of circumcision , and that the covenant made with abraham gen. . was a mixt covenant . . in a contradiction to the apostle , who makes circumcision a sign and seal , not alone of the land of canaan , but of the righteousness of faith . answ. either i have lost all my skill in logick , or else there is not the least colour of this charge , but mr. blake writes as one that scribles any thing that comes first into his fancy . a contradiction is of two propositions opposite in quantity and quality , the one universal , the other particular ; the one affirmative , the other negative , my propositions are . if it were granted that [ therfore gen. . . ] is the best reading ; yet that the inference verse . should be made from the promise onely , verse . and not as well , if not rather from the promise verse . i find no sufficient reason given ; the promise of the gospel was confirmed to abraham by the sign of circumcision , the covenant gen. . was a mixt covenant made up of spiritual and temporal mercies : the apostle rom. . . saith abraham received the sign of circumcision a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised . if master blake shew in these propositions i will not say contradiction onely the greatest of oppositions , but any contrariety at all , let me be taken for a heedless scribler ; if not , let master blake bear the blame . his other words [ all that know the nature of covenants , and use of seals know that the seal ratifies all that the covenant contains . but the covenant ( master tombs being judge ) contained not barely the promise of the land of canaan , and therefore the reference must carry it further than the land of canaan ] what are they but a grant of my exception , that the reference gen. . . must be not onely to the promise verse . as if infants were circumcised meerly because of the promise , i will be a god to thee , and to thy seed , but also to the promise verse . and that they were circumcised also because of that promise of the land of canaan , which belongs not to us , and therefore the reason of circumcision of infants from the covenant gen. . can be no rule to us to whom some of those promises belong not . if the seal ratifies all that the covenant contains , then it ratifies the promise of the land of canaan , and in respect of that it was to abrahams infants , which not belonging to our infants the reason of circumcising infants , if it be taken from the covenant , it will not pertain to our infants to whom that promise belongs not . i said , if it were yielded that the inference were made peculiarly from the promise , verse . to be a god to abraham and his seed ; it must be proved , that every believers infant-child is abrahams seed , afore it be proved the promise belongs to them . to this master blake saith , it must either be proved that they are abrahams children , or ●ave the privilege of the children of abraham , which from genesis . . rom. . . is sufficiently proved , especially being confirmed by those texts that carry the covenant in gospel times to the issue . answ. what privilege of the children of abraham he should mean , except the promise , i will be a god to them , which should belong to every believers infant child , i understand not . the privilege of circumcision , or visible church-membership in the christian church is neither inferred from the promise gen. . . nor from genesis . . rom. . . nor is there one text that carries the covenant in gospel times , i mean that covenant of which christ is mediator , mentioned heb. . . heb. . . ( besides which i know no covenant in gospel times ) to the issue , that is , all the natural infant-issue of every believer , and that neither those texts mentioned , nor any other produced by mr. bl. mr. m. mr. cobbet , or any other prove it , will be shewed in that which follows . for present my speech is right , the promise is not , i will be a god to thee , and to thy seed , and to him that hath the privilege of thy children . this is master blakes addition to the text. and therefore no man can prove the promise belongs to the infant-child of a believer , till he be proved to be abrahams seed : whatsoever privilege of abrahams children , any child may have , yet from that promise none can claim privilege , but abraham and his seed , sith the promise is made to no other , and therefore no child of ours can claim an interest in that promise till he be abrahams seed , which master blakes shift doth no whit avoid . to my exception , that the covenant was not made to every child of abraham , he saith , though it were true , yet it would nor serve my purpose , provided , that we in gospel times are under the same covenant as was isaac ; if some of abrahams children were left out , that concerns not us , so that we are taken in . but i reply , sure if it were true , it were much to my purpose to shew the insufficiency of the paedobaptists inference , from gen. . . that every child of a gentile believer is not in covenant by vertue of that promise , if it be true that the covenant was not made to every child of abraham . no paedobaptist hitherto that i know hath had the face to avouch that our children by vertue of that promise are more in covenant than abraham children ; master bl. himself saith , to make the inference good from gen. . . that believers children by virtue of that promise have title to the initial seal , it must either be proved that they are abrahams children , or have the privilege of abrahams children ; if then the covenant was not made to every child of abraham , then every child of abraham had not the privilege by the covenant , and then if it were granted that our children by that covenant had the privilege of abrahams child , yet it could not be proved thence , that every child of ours hath the privilege of the covenant , sith every child of abraham had it not . nor doth mr. bls. proviso at all help him . for . it being granted , that we in gospel-times are under the same covenant as was isaac , and that we are taken in , ( though without the limitations , first of the covenant onely , as it contains promises of saving grace ; secondly , onely of true believers before god , i deny it ) yet it follows not that our children are taken in . . nor if it were true , that our children are taken in , doth it follow that all our children are taken in , by vertue of that promise gen. . . sith neither all abrahams children , nor all isaacs children were taken in by it , esau being expressly excluded , rom. , , , . and elsewhere , nor doth god stile himself the god of esau as he did of jacob. but mr. blake saith , my instance from gen. . . heb. . . is very weak to prove , that the covenant was not made to every child of abraham , ishmael himself was in covenant , though not established in covenant ( as god there , and verse . promised concerning isaac ) nor his seed never received , appears not alone by the sign and seal which he received vers . . which yet is sufficient ( for god to seal to a blank is very strange ; to sign a covenant to a man never in covenant ) but also from gal. . . what saith the scripture ? cast out the bond-woman , and her son , for the son of the bond woman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman a man cast out of covenant , was before casting out in covenant ; ejection supposes admission , unless we will give way to mr tombs his dream of ejection by non-admission . he was cast out after the time of the solemnity of his admission by circumcision , as may be seen , gen. . answ. the apostle rom. . answering the objection , that if the jews were rejected from being the children of god then the promise falls , or takes not effect , which god made to abraham and his seed to be a god to them , answers verse , , , in these express words , neither because they are the seed of abraham are they all children , but in isaac shall thy seed be called , that is , they which are children of the flesh , these are not the children of god : but the children of the promise , are counted for the seed : for this ●is the word of promise , at this time will i come , and sarah shall have a son. which words if they do not affirm , that the promise or covenant , gen. . . was not made to all abrahams seed , and particularly that it was not made to ishmael , i cannot perceive any pertinency in the apostles speech to the answering the objection made , nor know how to understand his words , nor do i remember that i ever met with an interpreter , which did not thence conceive , that the apostle in those words did assert , that the promise or covenant was not made to ishmael . some i have produced exam. part . s. . so conceiving , and many more might be alleged if it were necessary . but the words of god to abraham , gen. . , , . do sufficiently prove , that the covenant gen. . . was not made to ishmael , and therefore he was not in covenant by gods act of promise . for when abraham upon gods promise concerning sarah and her son , ver . , . had laughed verse . and petitioned for ishmael , verse . god answers verse . by repeating his promise concerning isaac , and saith , he would establish his covenant with him for an everlasting covenant , and with his seed after him , verse . then tells him he heard him concerning ishmael , and recites what he would do for him ; which expresseth how far he had heard his petition . and then follows verse . but my covenant will i establish with isaac , which b●ing adversative hath this plain sense , that he would do that for ishmael which he had expressed , verse . but he would establish his covenant , that is , confirm and perform what he had promised before verse , . in isaac not in ishmael ; he promised not to be a god to abraham and his seed , by ishmael in their generations , nor to give them the land of canaan . as for what master blake saith , that ishmael himself was in covenant , though not established in covenant ; it seems to intimate that he conceives , that god made the covenant to him , but did not establish it . but sure god makes no covenant with any which he doth not establish ; if he did , he should not be true . nor is there any such emphasis in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i will establish , which doth intimate , that the covenant was made to ishmael , but established , that is , confirmed , and to be certainly performed onely to isaac , for the phrase used elsewhere , gen. . , . doth express no more than is meant v. . this is the token of the covenant i make between , me and you . as for master blakes proof that ishmael was in covenant , because he was circumcised , gen. . . it rests upon these unproved false suppositions . . that circumcision was appointed to men because they were in covenant with god. . that god did by circumcision sign the covenant to him that was circumcised· . that every one that was appointed by god to be circumcised was in covenant . as for the speech that god doth not seal to a blank , it is a speech the scripture useth not , and it having various senses may be true in some sense , in other false . a blank is such a paper as hath no writing in it , or wherein there is some empty space left to write more in , whether persons names , or promises , or other matter . by gods sealing mr. bl. means the using of circumcision , baptism , the passeover , the lords supper , according to gods appointment . that which he conceives to be sealed thereby is the covenant , gen. . . which he makes all one with the covenant of grace , and by proving every sacrament to be a seal of the covenant of grace , from rom. . . his meaning should be , that god seals in the administrators right use of every sacrament to every person , that he is in covenant , that he hath the righteousness of faith , else god should seal to a blank . but in that sense i do aver it to be most true , that god doth seal to a blank , that is , that many thousands had circumcision , the passeover , baptism , and the lords supper , according to gods institution and appointment , who were never in covenant with god , nor did god seal , that is , assure to them their interest in the covenant , genesis . or the covenant of grace in gospel times , or the righteousness of faith . but in this sense i grant it to be true that god doth not seal to a blank , that is , when he appoints any sign or seal of a covenant , he doth not appoint it a sign and seal of a covenant that hath no promises , or wherein the persons to whom , and the promises are not sufficiently exprest , yet he doth command that sign to be used upon persons to whom is no promise in that covenant , as well as those to whom it is made , yea the using it on one person may seal to thousands , who are not to have it on their own persons , as the circumcising of abraham himself was a seal of the righteousness of faith to all believers of the gentiles , who were not to be circumcised . and if every ones circumcision should seal to him , the righteousness of faith , then circumcision should by gods appointment seal that which is not true , which is not to be said of god. nor doth mr. blake prove from galatians . . that ishmael was first in covenant , because he was after cast out ; for the casting out is not appointed to be out of the covenant , for that abraham could not do , to whom this speech is directed , it is god that puts in and out of his covenant , but the casting out is out of abrahams family , which was to be done by abraham . if it be replyed , that this was a sign of casting out of covenant , and therefore supposed he was in covenant , i answer so it was a sign of casting out of the inheritance , out of the righteousness of faith , out of the kingdom of heaven , which yet neither he , nor those whom he typified , and so were cast out with him , ever had . what he calls my dream of ejection by non-admission , doth but shew mr. blakes own oscitancy . for matthew . . it is said , the children of the kingdome , that is , the jews shall be cast out , to wit , of the kingdom of heaven , where abraham , and isaac , and jacob sit down , into outer darknesse ; and yet those children of the kingdom , were never in the kingdom of heaven , nor ever should be . ishmaels casting out after the time of the solemnity of his admission by circumcision , doth not prove he was in covenant before . neither circumcision , nor baptism , doth admit men into covenant with god. if they did , then administrators could put men in and out of covenant with god ; but that is gods prerogative , not in mans power . even according to paedobaptists suppositions , persons are first to be in covenant afore they are to be baptized , therfore baptism doth not admit them into covenant . master blake addes ; for that of hebrews . . it is a mystery , what he will make of it , unlesse he will conclude , that because abraham sojourned in the land of promise , that therefore none were in covenant , that were not taken into that land , so moses and aaron will be found out of covenant . to which i reply . the mystery might have been unveiled , if mr. blake had heeded that the author of that epistle calls onely isaac and jacob of those that dwelt with abraham in tents , heirs with him of the same promise , therefore ishmael and esau were not heirs with him of the same promise , though he dwelt in tents with them , and consequently were not in the covenant , or had not the covenant or promise of abraham made to them . upon those words of mine ; as for a visible church-seed of abraham , that is neither his seed by nature , nor by saving faith , nor by excellency , in whom the nations of the earth should be blessed , to wit , christ , i know none such in scripture , though some men have fancied such a kind of church-seed , as it is called . master blake thus animadverts . i know not how saving faith comes in , when a faith of profession will serve the turn . abrahams seed had circumcision as a seal of the righteousness of faith , when their parents had no more than a faith of profession . to which i reply , a meer faith of profession will not serve turn to make any gentile to be rightly according to the scripture termed abrahams seed . none of them in scripture are counted abrahams seed , but either true believers before god , or elect persons . no where doth the scripture say , that the circumcision which any of abrahams seed had was as a seal of the righteousness of faith to them , when their parents were true believers , much less when their parents had no more than a faith of profession . mr. blakes talk , that all that which my three former exceptions gainsaid is made good , is but vain , as the rest of his arguing . let us here see what he addes further . i had said , lastly , were all these things yielded , yet the proposition could not be made good from hence , sith the inference is not concerning title or right of infants to the initial seal , as if the covenant or promise of it self , did give that , but the inference is concerning abrahams duty , that therefore he should be the more ingaged to circumcise his posterity . hereupon mr. blake tells me , i should rather have left this to my adversaries for the strengthening of their proposition , than have made use of it my self for refutation of it . it was abrahams duty to give them according to gods command the initial seal ▪ in this master tombs and we are agreed ; whether it will thence follow that they had right and title to it , or without right , let the reader determine . answ. the adversaries propositions to be refuted were , first , that the reason why abrahams infants were to be circumcised , was their interest in the covenant , which they would gather from gen. . , and . put together ; secondly , that to them belongeth the initial seal , whether of the jewish or christian church , who have interest or title to the covenant of grace . but if the inference be not of title or right in the persons to be circumcised , but of duty in the administrator , and the propositions be of title or right from the covenant , and not of duty , the adversaries propositions are not rightly gathered from that inference , which is not concerning right or title but duty . as for master blakes jeer rather than answer , it is unworthy a serious sober man. for my speech did not intimate that the infants were circumcised without right or title , but that the inference , gen. . . was of duty , not of title or right , and that what title the infants had to circumcision it was not , as paedobaptists suppose , from the interest in the covenant which the circumcised had , but the command of god to the circumciser , and therefore there is not any connexion between interest in the covenant and title or right to the initial seal without the command , nor this proposition true . all they who are in covenant are to be sealed with the initial seal , unless this limitation be added , when it is commanded . now if this limitation be put , then , though the infants of believers were granted to be in covenant , yet they are not to be baptized , till over and besides their being in covenant a command for their baptism be shewed , which hath not been yet , nor i think ever will be . there are some more of mr. blakes jeers or flirts rather than sober and serlous answers yet remaining . to what i said , that abraham was engaged to circumcise only those that are males , and not afore eight daies , and not onely those that were from himself , but also all in his house , whose children soever they were , which apparently shews that the giving circumcision was not commensurate to the persons interest in the covenant , but it was to be given to persons as well out of covenant as in , if of abrahams house , and not to all that were in the covenant , to wit , females : which doth cleerly prove that right to the initial seal , as it is called , of circumcision did not belong to persons by vertue of the covenant , but by force of the command , mr. blake in his flirting fashion thus speaks . if he can prove that abraham kept idolaters in his house , professedly worshipping a false god , and gave circumcision to them in that faith and way of worship ; it would prove that a man might have the seal , and not be in covenant . and it will prove a man might have the seal , and not be in covenant , though i cannot prove any idolater in abrahams house , if i can prove there were or might be infants or young persons who were children of idolaters , for such were not in covenant as the seed of believers , or by their own profession . but , saith he , it would not prove that he might be in covenant , and be denied the seal . true , but this that infant-males under eight daies old , and females in covenant might be denyed the seal , would prove it . and then , saith mr. bl. infant-baptism might be of easier proof . though they were not in covenant , though they were not holy , yet they might be baptized . i reply , i grant that persons in covenant might be denyed circumcision , but think infant-baptism never a whit the easier proved . i ft-circumcision is commanded of all in abrahams house , whether in covenant or no , but baptism to none because he is in covenant , or holy , but because a disciple , which is not true of any infant ordinarily . but , saith master blake , i will not yield so much ; i do not believe that abraham carried circumcision beyond the line of the covenant , and that he had those in his house which were aliens from god ; seeing i find that testimony of the lord concerning him , genesis chap. . verse . and find that resolution of joshua , joshua chap. . verse , . i believe abraham catechized all he took in as heathens , and did not circumcise them as heathens . answ. i believe he did not circumcise them as heathens , but as his own bought with his money , and of his house , and if he bought any infants , or young children ( which was then , and hath been since usual , where men and women are sold as slaves ) he did circumcise infant or young males of heathen idolaters . for the command of god was he should , and yet those infant or young males of heathen idolaters could not be catechized , nor were in covenant , either by their own profession , or their parents right , or any promise of god to them ; and therefore circumcision in that case must be carried beyond the line of the covenant . to what i added of master marshalls confession , that he granted the formal reason of the jews , being circumcised , was the command , and the covenant he makes only a motive , defence page . master blake speaks thus . i wonder what need there is of an argument to force such a confession . the reason i say , why jews were circumcised , and christians baptized , is the command ; were there a thousand covenants and no institution of a sign or seal , such a sign or seal , there could have been no circumcision , no baptism . the command is the ground , and the covenant is the directory to whom application is to be made : we say , all in covenant are entituled to the seal for admission ; but we presuppose an institution . i reply , if the formal reason why the jews were circumcised were the command , and the covenant onely the motive , then the command was the differencing reason ; for the form distinguisheth , and the formal reason is the reason which differenceth . motives are not directions what to do , but commands , the same motive may be to contrary commands . the command is the directory to whom application is to be made both of circumcision and baptism . the command doth express not only the act to be done , but also the persons to whom . the covenant is no directory to whom circumcision , or baptism is to be applyed . the whole covenant of circumcision is expressed , genesis . , , , , . but there is not a word who are to be circumcised , but after . there is not the least hint in the institution of baptism , matthew chap. . verse . mark chap. . verse . of any covenant god makes to man. to imagine god commanded circumcision and baptism , and yet not to tell who are to be baptized or circumcised but from the covenant , which no man knoweth to whom it belongs , is to imagine god gives a blind command , which no wise master would do . it is not true , all in covenant are entitled to the seal for admission , for then females , males under eight daies old , believers out of abrahams house , proselytes of the gate had been entitled to circumcision , for they were in covenant as well as those who were to be circumcised . and it is as certain on the other side that ishmael , esau , the infants of strangers bought by abraham , with his money , were to be circumcised , though they were not in covenant , and therefore i inferre it as certain , that being in covenant or interest in the covenant , or having the promises of the covenant , genesis . , , , , . or the new covenant in christs blood heb. . , , . and . , . or any other evangelical covenant , all , or some of them made to a person did not intitle a person to circumcision , nor doth now to baptism , nor can be without the command or institution of christ , or primitive example , a rule , directory or sufficient warrant for any to baptize a person , nor acquit him from profaning and abusing baptism , and therefore there is no such reality of connexion between the covenant and seal , that this proposition is thereby proved true , all in covenant are intitled to the seal for admission : or this false , some of those who are not in covenant are intitled to the seal ( as they call it ) for admission : and master blakes censure of my exceptions as frivolous trifles shews his weaknesse in disputes , there being very little in his arguings or answers but flirts , quips , dictates and impertinencies . what he addes of my grants discovers the like vanity ; for though i say that believers , and disciples are to be baptized , not barely on their faith and knowledge , but upon the command to baptize such , yet how it follows which mr. blake saith , so that the command is with reference to the covenant , with reference to the interest in the covenant , is to me a meer inconsequence , unless he imagine the command and covenant all one , which to assert were ridiculous . and who will believe that i attribute as much to the covenant respective to this seal , when i say examen page the seventieth eight , that the common privilege of circumcision belonging to the jews , did not arise from the covenant of grace , according to the substance of it , but according to the administration that then was , as master marshall to the command , when he said , the command was the formal reason of the jews being circumcised . when i do not at all make circumcision to arise from the covenant as any reason of the duty , much less the formal reason of it , but as from the occasion of it , whereas master m. makes the command , the very formal reason of the existence of the duty . sect . xxi . the ten exceptions of the first part of my review against paedobaptists exposition and allegation of acts . , . for the connexion between covenant and seal are vindicated from master blakes answer , vindic. foederis , ch . , . mr. blake addes some snatches against my ten exceptions to paedobaptists exposition of acts . , . to the first which was , that the promise is not proved to be that genesis . . and acts . . acts . . lead us to some other , he saith , when a promise is mentioned and a seal , any man but he will presently understand that promise , which is ratified by such a seal . to which i reply . where is there mention of a seal ? or of a promise sealed or to be sealed as he speaks ? if there were , is there no other promise to be ratified by such a seal but that ? did circumcision seal no other promise but that ? doth the scripture give the least hint of sealing that promise , gen. . . understood as paedobaptists expound it , that god would be a god to every believer , and to his seed , in respect at least of visible church-membership , yea though he be a believer onely by profession ? they use to tell us that circumcision seals the righteousness of faith , from rom. . . but to seal this and to seal the promise , gen. . . ( as paedobaptists do rack rather than expound the words ) are as much different as are the payment of gold , and lead . have not learned men expounded the promise , some of that mentioned , ver . . of the gift of the holy ghost , some of other promises ? why then doth master blake so ineptly intimate me to be singular in my conceit ? why doth he so falsely insinuate that no more than bare words can be found for my exposition ; when i bring two texts to confirm it , and mr. bl. saith not a word to infirm my alleging them ? what he refers me to in his . ch . and mr. cobbet shall be examined in its place . to the second , which was that [ the promise is acts . ] is expounded , . of a promise of a thing to come , whereas it may seem rather from acts . , . to be meant of a promise already fulfilled . . that the thing to come promised was some outward privilege to be conferred on them and their children . mr. blake saith , yet he quotes no man for this exposition of a thing to come , but on the contrary quotes mr. cobbet in the margin against it . it is meant of a present right ; for as yet they were not broken off from the olive , nor gentiles graffed in . answ. . that paedobaptists do understand the words acts . . of a promise of some thing to come appears , . in that many of them make it the same with this , i will be a god to a believer , and his seed . so master marshall defence page . mr. drew ubi supra , mr. blake out of calvin , vindic. foederis page . and others . now a promise that he will be a god to them is a promise of a thing to come . . in that they disclaim the supplement [ is fulfilled ] as mr. cobbet just. vindic. part . ch . . sect . . and usually , as beza , the english directory , mr. blake and others expound it , the promise is made , which proves it is , according to them , meant of something to come , not of a thing past , for if it were it should be a promise fulfilled . mr. cobbet , it is true , saith , the promise in praesenti is to you in respect of external right ; but then he must needs mean it , that the promise was in praesenti made of external right to come , or else he must mean it of a promise fulfilled , which he denies . and for the other , that paedobaptists do expound it of outward privilege to be conferred on them , and their children , besides mr. cobbets words cited , and other in the same section ; mr. hudson vindic. page . saith , this promise acts . . is that external covenant to which baptism doth belong , and the ashford disputants for infants-baptism , grant , that the promise of the eternal inheritance , life and salvation is not made , much less made good to any upon terms of the parents faith , but upon our own personal belief , and obedience , but the promise of outward privileges , and of right to participation of ordinances as to be baptized , and inchurcht , this belongs to children upon their parents faith , and in this last sense it is , that peter saies the promise is to you and your children , &c. i. e. you and yours have the privilege of right to baptism . to my third exception , that [ to you ] is taken , as if it were meant of those persons to whom he spake , as then believers , and under that formal consideration , mr. blake saith , i do not interprete it of any present explicit faith in christ as the messiah ; but now this conviction , that so evidently appeared , did evidence them to be in an hopeful way , and with that scribe not to be far from the kingdom of god , and therefore he takes his opportunity , and presseth it on to come into the way of believers in christ jesus . answ. this grant is sufficient , first , to justify my exception , secondly , to overthrow mr. blakes , and other paedobaptists inference from this text , . that in this text the covenant in new testament times is held out in this latitude to believers and their seed , vindic. foed . chap. . for if they had not any present , explicit faith in christ as the messiah , then they were not believers . . that this speech [ the promise is to you , and to your children ] is equipollent to this promise [ i will be a god to believers and their seed ] for if they were not then believers , it had been false if the apostle had said as they would have him , the promise that god will be a god to believers and their seed , is in praesenti to you and your children , when they were not believers . to my fourth exception , that [ your children ] is expounded of their infant-children ; yea it is carried as if of them onely , he saith , to this is sufficient spoken , ch . . i shall therefore look back to that chapter , page . he saith , acts . . an effectual call cannot be mean● ( which the apostle calls a call according to purpose ) proper onely to the elect , so the visible seal would be limitted to invisible members . but this is not true , for then the being of the promise would be limitted to them , not baptism . it is false which master blake supposeth , that baptism is limitted to them to whom the promise is , and that the being of the promise to a person intitles to his baptism . he saith ; it is a call unto such a church-state as the whole ●●tion of the jews did then enjoy as the first-born in the family . to which i reply , the whole nation of the jews enjoyed a church-state , by which they were joyned in one national society under an high priest , and other priest offering sacrifice ; at the temple , whither the church-members were to bring their gifts , and to observe the levitical rites . it is a dotage with a witness to conceive that peter meant acts . . that the promise was to them or those afar off , whom god should call to this church-state . it is certain that the calling of the jewes and gentiles , by the gospel was to remove them out of that society , and church-state , as appears by v. . nor did the apostles ever associate the christians to the jews as proselytes to them , nor did they ever draw them into any such church-state , as the jews had to take in a whole nation , city , or family , comprehending infants into the christian church , but onely so many as believed as v. . , &c. shew : yea to call them to such a church-state as the jewes had , had been to call them not to baptism , but to circumcision and the observation of moses law. the call of god , acts . . is no other then what is mentioned in the new testament to be saints , to his kingdom and glory , to the fellowship of his sonne by his word and spirit , or one of them at least , yea the promise being meant of christ , which master blake doth not deny , as will appear in that which followes , it can be expounded onely of those that are effectually called , sith to them onely christ belongs : on the other side to understand it of a call unto such a church-state as the whole nation of the jewes did then enjoy , is to limit the promise to jewish proselytes , or to national christian churches , which is a wild conceit , unfit for a serious and sober divine . but master blake goeth on from whence this argument may be drawn , those to whom the covenant of promise appertains have a right to baptism , but the covenant of promise appertains to men in a church-state and condition and to their children . the major cannot be denied by any that will not make themselves the apostles opposites . the minor proposition is now onely to be considered , that the covenant of promise to men in a church-state and condition is in that latitude as to comprize their children , for which the words of the apostle are full and clear . to you is the promise made , and to your children , on which calvin rightly comments . peter observes ( saith he ) a due order when he assignes the first place of honour to the jewes , that it takes in children , it depends on the word of promise gen. . . i will be thy god and the god of thy seed , where god joynes children with their parents in the priviledge of adoption , where adoption is taken in the apostles sense , rom. . . to the inheritance of privileges belonging to all church-members , as he after explains himself . ans. the major is ambiguous , and in some sense it is true , and in some sense false . it is true in this sense , those to whom the covenant of promise by their beleiving , and covenanting to be christs disciples , appertains , have a right to baptism . but in this sense ( in which master blake seems to understand it , for he comprehends infants in the covenant ) those to whom the covenant of promise by gods acts of promise , whether of saving grace or church-privileges , appertains without their personal believing or covenanting , have a right to baptism , it is false . nor is the contradictory thereto opposit to any thing the apostle saith , who doth indeed exhort to repentance and baptism , but doth not from the promise without each persons repentance ascribe a right to baptism to any parent or child , the promise is not urged by him to declare a right to baptism of it self without repentance , but to encourage to repentance and baptism into the name of christ as their duty . the minor also is ambiguous , it being uncertain what he means by the covenant of promise , whether the covenant whereby the persons promise to god , or god to them ; and if of this latter , whether the covenant wherein god promiseth to them , be of saving-graces , or of church-priviledges ; if he mean it of the former , & understand it universally , it is manifestly false , contrary to scripture and experience ; whether the church-state be in respect of the visible or invisible church , there is no such promise of god , that if the parent be in a church-state or condition , so as to be elect , or true beleiver , much less if he be onely in the visible church , that his child , as his child , shall be in the covenant of saving grace , have christ , his spirit , remission of sins , and life everlasting by him . nor is it true of the promise of church-priviledges , that god will take the child of him who is in a church-state and condition for a visible church-member , capable of the initial seat , ( because he is his child ) without the childs personal faith and repentance . nor do i know of any covenant of promise now under the gospel of such outward church-priviledges , but take it to be a faction of paedobaptists ; nor is there in the apostles words any thing to prove the minor. for neither doth the text say , the promise is that , gen. . . nor that it is made , but onely [ is ] nor doth say , it is to you as in a church-state and condition , and to your children as the children of men in a church-state and condition . and for calvins words neither are they plain for mr. bls. purpose , nor if they were , should i take them for an oracle , but should expect better proof then his or master bls. sayings . as for the adoption , rom. . . it is clear from the text , and confessed by master rutherford , due right of presbytery ch . . sect. . pag. . to have been a prerogative of the jewes , as was the giving of the law , the descent of christ , &c. and therefore it is untruly suggested by master blake to be an inheritance of priviledges belonging to all church-members , or that the apostle doth after so explain himself ; and master blake continues his want of dictating without proofe . he next takes on him to answer objections . one is , that the children are the same with sons and daughters mentioned , v. . from joel . . and consequently the promise is of the spirit of prophecy , and appertaining to none but those of age and capacity for prophecy . to which he answers , . that the promise cannot be that extraordinary gift of the holy ghost in that visibie way , because it is enlarged to all the lord shall call : but all these have not the holy ghost in that extraordinary way , nor any promise of it . i confess , this answer is good against those that expound the words thus , the promise of the gift of prophecy , joel . . is to you and your children , and to all afar off , as the subjects to whom this gift is promised ; for then it would not be true , sith all had not that gift , cor. . . yet it may be true in this sense . the promise of the gift of the spirit in that visible way , is fulfilled to you and your children , and all afar off called by god , as the persons who had benefit by it , and so were the finis cui of those gifts promised as having the benefit of them , though not the subjects in whom they were . . saith master blake , however the promise be extended , yet that promise is on condition of their baptism , and is an encouragement to baptism , and in that latitude as they had formerly known the command of circumcision . to which i say , . if the promise be interpreted so as to belong to all that are believers , and call on the name of the lord , as here followes , then the promise is to the elect onely , and the call into the visible church , which master blake before denied . . though extraordinary gifts were given after baptism often , yet they were given also before , acts . , &c. and therefore i doubt it is not true which master blake saith , that promise of extraordinary gifts is on condition of their baptism , nor doth the text assert it . , as the promise is an encouragement to baptism , so it is to repentance , which is first required afore baptism by the apostle . . there is not a word in the text , acts . , . which yields a proofe of any of those positions which master bl. so importunely obtrudes , . that baptism is there urged as a sign and seal of the promise . . that they were encouraged to baptism in that latitude as they had formerly known the command of circumcision . , that the scripture delivereth , and the apostle urgeth the promise as to men and their posterity , to them and theirs , so as that god promiseth to be a god in covenant to his and their seed . . that the apostle holds this out to draw them on to this seal of the covenant , to accept baptism on the same terms that abraham did circumcision . but master blake his chiefest opposition about this text is against me , and therefore he bends himself against the fourth section of my exercit. and first . he excepts against my words , that the promise made ( which reading i then followed , but since like rather the supplement [ fulfilled ] is the sending of jesus christ and blessing by him , as is expounded , acts . , . acts . . rom. . , . thus i answer , it is true that jesus christ is the most eminent mercy promised , and may be called the promise virtualiter , being the ground of all promises , and therefore some interpreters have mentioned the gift of christ on this occasion . but it is plain that gods covenant and this gift are to be distinguished ; christ is promised in priority to the jew , before the gentile ; the jew then is taken into covenant before this gift of christ can be of them expected : it is therefore the covenant it self ( entred with parent and child , root and branch ) that is here meant , as calvin in the words before observes , from which the giving of christ in the flesh followes . and therefore diodati fully pitches upon the true sense of it , seeing as you are abrahams children , you are within the covenant , you ought to acknowledge christ to be the head and foundation of the covenant . the covenant i will be thy god and the god of thy seed is here meant , which from abraham had been the jewes priviledge , rom. . to which i reply , if christ may be called the promise virtually , then it is no obscuring the text , to interpret the being of the promise to them of the sending of jesus christ and blessing by him , nor doth this hinder the distinguishing of gods covenant and this gift , or the promising of christ to the jew before the gentile , or the jewes taking into covenant before this gift of christ can be expected of them , or that the giving of christ in the flesh followed the covenant it self entered with parent and child , root and branch , meaning abraham and his seed , as the apostle , gal. . . understands it ; and therefore in all this there is nothing brought by master blake , which makes void my interpretation , but confirms it rather . but for such a covenant as master blake imagines of gods being god to every believer and his infant child , in respect of church-membership in the church visible of christians , and other outward church-priviledges , i find no word in all the scripture . and for diodati his words , if he so meant what he speaks of their being in covenant , because they were abrahams children by natural descent , he answered from the sense of the place ; but master blake hath more to say to me . i had said , the limitation , as many as the lord our god shall call , shewes that the promise belongs to them , not simply as jewes , but as called of god , which is more expresly affirmed , acts . . to this master blake answers , i wonder how it came into master t. his head to call this application a limitation ; it plainly enough speaks his boldness in dealing with the scriptures ; had the apostle said , to you is the promise made , and to your seed , in case god shall give you a call , he had spoke to master t. his purpose : but saying , to you and to as many as the lord your god shall call , it plainly shewes that he does not limit , but amplifie the mercy , extending it not barely to the jewes ( who in present by reason of fruition of ordinances were a people near to the lord , psal. . . but also to the gentiles , who , ephes. . . were afarre off . to which i reply , a limitation of a proposition is the determining of it according to what the predicate agrees to the subject , or doth not agree , as keckerm . syst . log. l. . sect . . c. . and thus do the words [ as many as the lord ( not as master blake , your , but ) our god shall call ] limit the copulative proposition [ the promise is to you and to your children , and to all that are afar off ] determining to which of each of these , and in what respect the promise is to them . and to take away master blakes wonderment ( the fruit of ignorance , and often of folly ) which he and his brother baxter do often express about me , that they may describe me as some strange example of gods judgment in blasting my intellectuals , i will tell him how it came into my head to call those words a limitation of the proposition . first , the placing of the words at the end of the proposition , did give me occasion to take them for a limitation . secondly , the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as many as ] is a limitting term , appropriating the thing said to those subjects forenamed , who were so qualified as to be called by the lord. thirdly , ( which was the prime inducement ) i conceived the speech of peter had not been true without that limitation , and this i long since told master m. in my exam. part . . sect. . pag. . if the promise be of saving graces , if of christ sent , if of the outward ordinances of baptism , &c. if of the holy ghost in extraordinary gifts , it is none of these wayes true without that limitation . for neither god promised saving graces , nor outward ordinances , nor extraordinary gifts , nor sent christ to them , their children , or all that are afar off without calling them , and every of them . and but that master bls. master bs. and such like wonderers heedlesness and peevishness are no strange thing to me , i should wonder that master blake should no better heed my words in my examen , nor diodati his words ( who , he saith , fully pitches upon the true sense of it ) which in his annot. on acts. . . are these , shall call , namely by his gospel . so he doth restrain the israelites to whom the promises are directed onely to those , who by gods gift believe in christ ; see rom. . . gal. . . which had master blake faithfully set down in stead of some other words i find in him , his reader might have discerned how false it is , that the promise is to an infant child of a believer , as his child , without calling ; and have discerned that it is not my device onely , but that which others before me apprehended , and so no more boldness in my dealing with the scriptures then was meet , and the apostles words to have this plain sense , the promise is to you , being called of god ; and to your children , being called of god ; and to all afar off , being called of god ; and to no other , and to requite master blake , i may more truly say , it 's a wonder how it came into master blakes head to call this limitation an amplification . for though the words [ to all that are afar off ] contain an amplification of the mercy either to the posterity of the jewes , or to those in the dispersion , or to the gentiles ( of which i will not now dispute ) yet the words [ as many as the lord our god shall call ] are a plain limitation of his speech , as i have proved . but master blake addes of me , . in that he saith , this promise belongs to them not simply as jewes , but as called , is a full contradiction ; a jew uncalled ( at this time before the kingdome was taken from them ) is as much as a convert unconverted , or a gentile disciple undiscipled : in case he think to come off by limiting it to an effectuall call , the scripture by himself quoted doth evidently contradict it ; christ came to give them that effectuall calling , and not onely to those that were thus called . ans. master blakes charge of contradictions is as frivolous as his wonderment . master blakes conceit of a calling into such a church-state , as the whole nation of the jewes did then enjoy , is but a dream of his own , for which he hath not one scripture nor other proofe . the calling is to communion with christ , and an effectuall calling , else the proposition were not true ; nor is there any contradiction in any of the places by me quoted , to this exposition , the promise of christ is fulfilled for the remission of your sins , and your childrens , and all that are afar off , as many as the lord our god shall effectually call , and no other ; nor hath master blake shewed any . for though christ came to give effectual calling , yet it is true also , he came to give remission onely to those that were thus called ; nor is there any opposition , much less contradiction in those speeches . master blake goes on . he yet said , peter doth exhort to repentance and baptism together , and in the first place perswades to repentance , then to baptism , which shewes repentance to be in order before baptism . to which he answers , not by denying it , but by giving a reason of it , because they had crucified christ , &c. to which i reply , this grant shewes that they had not right to baptism without repentance , though the promise were to them , they were in the church-state of the jewes , &c. and consequently master blakes proposition false . those to whom the covenant of promise appertains ( in his sense ) have a right to baptism . what he addes , and yet he shewes that they and their seed are under the promise of god , and puts them into a way in acceptation of christ in the gospel-tender , in his present way of administration , to be continued his people still in covenant , and that ( as is plainly enough signified ) that they might enjoy it in their former latitude to them and to their children ; that the jewes ( even those that had not yet embraced christ ) were not yet dispossest of the promise , but stood as a people of god in visible covenant , and their children , in the sense in which master blake means is false ; and yet were it true , it is against master blakes proposition , sith notwithstanding this being in covenant , yet were they not admitted or to be admitted to baptism without repentance . he addes , master t. hath yet this evasion , and saith , the text speak● not expresly of infants , but of children indefinitely ; and if infants be not children , we will be content that they be cast out of covenant , and will hold no plea for their church-membership and baptism . ans. as infants are children , so are men and women of twenty , or more years old , and therefore the term ( children ) unless it be proved to be taken universally or particularly of infants , the covenant-state ( as they call it ) though we should grant such an estate there meant , would not be thence concluded . and yet infants were to be circumcised not simply because they were abrahams seed , nor because in covenant , but by reason of gods command . and though a woman and disciple be not synonyma , yet women being numbred among disciples , it is an express example of womens coming together to break bread , which mentions the disciples breaking bread ; nor was i at all put to it , much less hard put to it , when this came in for an answer . for without this an answer was given before to the argument , and this was added as an over-plus , and so was that which master blake nibbles at in that which followes . i had said the text speaks not of the children of the gentiles at all , ( of whom we are ) but of the children of the jews ; and therefore if that promise be extended to infants , which doth not appear , the promise is to be expounded so as to note something peculiar to the jewes infants . to this master blake thus saith , if the gospel held out any such transcending priviledges appertaining to the seed of the jewes above the gentiles , master t. may do well to produce a text for it , otherwise we shall take it for granted from saint paul , that there is none at all , that there is neither greek , nor jew , circumcision nor uncircumcision , barbarian nor scythian , bond nor free . to which i reply , there is no need i should shew any such priviledge held out in the gospel to the jewes seed above the gentiles , but that master blake should shew such priviledge as he speaks of , to the jewes seed held out in the gospel . but this i say , if he will have the text , acts. . . to be for his purpose , he must shew that the children of the gentiles ( of whom there is not a word ) are mentioned as those to whom the promise is as well as the children of the jewes , which he thus attempts . and when the apostle addes , to those that are afar off , even as many as the lord shall call , he plainly means the gentiles , as appears , comparing ephes. . and though i take not the boldness to adde to the words , and to their children , as master t. challenges doctor h. yet it is clear , that the same is understood there in reference to the children of the gentiles , that is exprest before to the children of the jewes . if any shall grant an inheritance to titius and his heirs for ever , and to caius , every one will understand that the heirs of caius are meant as well as the heirs of titius , especially if it can be proved out of the grant it self , that the priviledge conveyed to caius , is as ample as that to titius . we can prove the priviledges granted to the gentiles in the gospel to be equal to those granted to the jewes ; when the jewes children are under the promise with their parents , the children of believing gentiles cannot be excluded . to which i reply , that it appeared not plainly to beza , annot. in locum , that by those afar off , acts . . are meant the gentiles , but rather the posterity of the jewes , which should be in after generations , or those in the dispersion , among the gentiles . for it seemes unlikely that peter did then consider or declare the calling of the gentiles , who was so averse from preaching to cornelius , asts . or that it would have been born with them , when even the brethren expostulated with him for that fact , acts. . . nor do i think 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 acts. . . the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ephes. . . this latter noting manifestly remoteness from god in respect of knowledge and communion , the former remoteness from them to whom he spake , either in descent or distance of place . however were it resolved that the gentiles are meant , acts. . . as many interpreters conceive , yet it is too much boldness to adde to the text [ and to their children ] and not much less in master bl. that it is understood , when there is neither word in the text , nor defect of sense without it , nor any ancient copy , which necessitate that addition or supplement . and for master blakes case in law , it is not opposite . for , acts . . there is no mention of a grant to them and their heirs for ever , but only a promise to them and their children , which there is no necessity , nor i think intention in peter in those words to extend to any other then were then existent . but if it were opposite , yet so far as i know their mindes , either by such experience in law-cases , o● converse with lawyers , ( with whom i sometimes lived ) i presume they would say otherwise then master blake , that a grant of an inheritance to titius and his heirs for ever , and to caius , without mentioning his heirs , is not a grant to the heirs of caius , no not though it could be proved the priviledge conveyed to caius is as ample as that to titius . as for what master blake tells us , he and others can prove of the priviledges of the gentiles granted in the gospel equal to the jewes , i yield it , if meant of believing jewes and gentiles , and saving spititual blessings in christ , according to that , ephes. . . but meant ( as master blake would have it ) of visible church-membership , and the initial seal , i take it to be a vain brag , neither he nor any other having yet proved it , or that the jewes or gentiles children are or were universally under the pronise of the covenant of grace , which is evangelical , with their believing parents , and by reason of their faith , i know no more about acts . , . in that ch . to be answered . i return to his answer to my exceptions ch . . pag. . he thus dictates after his fashion , children as theirs whether they be called or no , is ( he knowes with us ) a contradiction ; children are called in their parents call , and we say they are in covenant , the promise is made to them , they are visible church-members till they reject the covenant , and deny their membership . to which i say , i know many things to be taken for truths and contradictions with paedobaptists , which were neither truths , nor contradictions : but this conceit that [ jewes children uncalled , as calling is meant , acts . . ] is a contradiction . i had not so mean an opinion of master blakes and other paedobaptists intellectuals , as to imagine they would own it , till master blake vented this foppery , which how vain it is was shewed above . in like manner i was secure of ever meeting with such a foolery as this of master blake , children are called in their parents call , till i read the like in his brother baxters vain-mocktitled-book plain script . proof , &c. ch . . that he that converteth the parent , maketh both him and his infants disciples : to which i have said somewhat in my review , part . . sect . . and for the other speech that they are in covenant , the promise is made to them , they are visible church-members till they reject the covenant , and deny their membership , it contains sundry inconsistencies with paedobaptists hypotheses . for first , they say , the children of believers are in covenant , and visible church-members as theirs ▪ children as theirs , whether they be called or no is ( he knowes with us ) a contradiction , saith master blake here . if so , then they are in ●ovenant , and visible church-members while theirs , quatenus ipsum includes de omni & semper . but they are so when they reject the covenant , the relation to their parents ceaseth not then ; therefore neither their church-membership , if the hypothesis be true . secondly , they suppose the visible church-membership of believers children , is by vertue of gods promise to be their god , gen. . . and this promise requires no other condition but the parents faith , no condition from the 〈◊〉 for then it could not agree to infants ; therefore if the parent be a believer 〈◊〉 the child be not a visible church-member , god keeps not his promise which he hath made , according to their hypotheses , and so they do make god a lyar , which is blasphemy . thirdly , they magnifie the priviledge of infants visible churchmembership , they enveigh against anti-paedobaptists , as robbing them thereof , and parents of their comforts , though they grant the parents as much ground of hope for them , as the paedobaptists grounds can truly give them ; and for reality of priviledge , setting aside an empty title and rite as to them in infancy , they grant them visible church-membership , when they profess the faith , which in respect of church-communion paedobaptists themselves grant them , not before ; but mock both parents and children , telling them they are in covenant , and visible church-members by their parents faith without their own , yet denying them church-communion , which is due to every visible church-member , without their own personal avouching the faith ; besides , their injurious dealing with them in their mock-baptism of them , when it is not due , nor does them any good , and denying baptism to them , yea , persecuting them for seeking it after when it is due , and might do them much good by engaging them to christ , and thereupon assure christ to be theirs . my fifth exception master blake passeth over as fore-spoken to , ch . . which hath answer before , and my sixth as falling in with my tenth , where i shall overtake him . to my seventh , wherein i excepted against master stephens for holding the command [ be baptized every one of you ] in a covenant-sense as he calls it to be , as if he had said , be baptized you and your children , which i said to be a new devised non-sense , such as we have no dictionary yet to interpret words by . to this saith master blake , i am sure here is a non-sense device , to talk of dictionaries ; does calepin or scapula , rider or thomasius help us to compare covenant and seal , promises and sacraments ? i reply , that speech is non-sense , in which the words used to signifie that which the speaker would signifie by them , do not in the use of them so signifie . but this speech [ be baptized every one of you ] doth not in the use of the words signifie [ be baptized you and your children ] therefore that speech so used in that which master stephens calls covenant-sense is non-sense . this appears by dictionaries , in none of which [ every one of you ] is as much as [ you and your children ] therefore that speech in that sense is a new devised non-sense . as for master blakes words , either they are non-sense , or as bad . for first , to talk of dictionaries is not a device , an action of the mind ; but a speech , an action of the tongue or hand ; and therefore it is non-sense to call it so . secondly , to talk of dictionaries is not non-sense ; for then all speech of dictionaries should be non-sense , and so all the verses before . r●ders and others dictionaries should be non-sense . but to speak of dictonaries otherwise then the words signifie , so as the meaning cannot be perceived by them , which he cannot say of my speech of dictionaries . as for master blakes question , it is frivolous , as much of the rest of his writing here is . for though dictionaries do not help us to compare covenant and seal , promises and sacraments , yet they do help us to know the sense of words , and discover to us the non-sense of words used otherwise then their signification is . master blake himself in the . ch . sect . . refers me to the dictionary about the word pax. to my eighth exception that there is not a word of any scruple in the text , as some have imagined , if we be baptized our selves , and not our children , they will be in worse case then in the former dispensation , in which they had the seal of the covenant ; nor is it likely that they were sollicitous about such an imaginary poor priviledge of their children . he saith , i am of his minde , that there was no such scruple in their heads . master t. his unhappy conceit of casting the seed out of the covenant was not then in being , though i think the reason he gives is little to purpose , yet i say , this scruple raised by anti-paedobaptists , and heightened by master t. as in many other , so in this text is removed . ans. my exception then stands good against those who make that scruple the occasion of peters mentioning their children . and for my reason , master blake had done better to give a reason of his censure , then barely to say he thinks it to little purpose . it is his calumny that i have any conceit of casting the seed out of the covenant , and his conceit that the scruple mentioned is in this text removed , hath been shewed to be but his dream . my ninth exception was that paedobaptists make [ for v. . ] to infer a right to baptism , whereas it infers onely a duty , which is proved in that [ v. . baptized ] is in the imperative mood . to this saith master blake , master t. does grossely abuse his judgment in this way of refutation , as though the right in which they stood , could be no topick , from which in a moral way the apostle might perswade them to baptism ; when shecaniah perswaded ezra to the reformation of the marriage of strange wives in these words : arise , for the matter belongeth to thee , ezra . . here was a motive in the moral way to call upon him to do it , and an argument inferred , that it lay upon ezra as a duty by command from god to set upon it . and to my reason he saith , he hath quite forgotten , that the words holding out their right are in the indicative mood . for the promise is to you and your children . and here is a notable correction of the apostle , he should have said , if this had been his meaning , you must be baptized ; and he sai●s , arise , and be baptized . ans. sure i am master blake doth most grossely abuse me , in insinuating as if by my refutation , the right in which they stood could be no topick , from which in a moral way the apostle might perswade them to baptism , when i proved that the apostle did not from v. . infer a right to baptism , which in a legal way they might claim , but a duty , to which in a moral way he perswades . and therefore he shootes wide from the mark , when he goes about to prove that a right may be a motive in a moral way to a duty . and yet as if he could write nothing to the point , his own allegation , ezra . . is not to his own purpose , the motive as himself alledgeth , it being not a right to a privilege ; but a command from god. the like roving talk is in his answer to my reason . for whereas i alleged that verse . a right is not inferred from verse . but a duty , because [ be baptized , v. . ] is not in the indicative , but the imperative mood , tels me the term [ is v. . ] is in the indicative mood , which is nothing to my objection , but like as in the contention between two deaf men in sir thomas mores epigram , he that was charged with theft answered , his mother was at home . the like random talk is in his insinuation of my notable correction of the apostle , who corrected not the apostle , but shewed the paedobaptists conceit incongruous to the apostles words ; he himself seems ( i think out of heedlesness ) to correct the apostle , when he speaks thus , and he ●aies , arise and be baptized , which are not peters words , acts. . . but the words of ananias to saul , acts. . . my tenth exception was , usually paedobaptists in their paraphrases put not in any thing to answer [ repent , v. . ] which is true , though master stephens be alleged in my sixth exception , as paraphrasing it by covenant , for your selves and your children , master blake grants the apostle presseth to a duty , and such as was to have repentance precedent in his then hearers : if so , then he doth not infer a right to bap●ism barely from their interest in the promise . what he saith , right and duty very well stand together , and that the apostle fitly makes use of their interest as a motive , i deny not . it is true , the apostle mentioned more to whom the promise was then , he then perswaded to repent , for he mentions the promise as pertaining to the absent , or unborn ; but he perswades none to be baptized but the penitent , nor mentions any to whom the promise was , but the called of god. to my argument from the precedency of repentance to baptism , acts. . . against infant-baptism , he answers as before , ch . . to which i have replyed before . as for master stephens his paraphrase avowed by master blake as the apostles meaning , that if the jewes who had crucified christ , would receive him as the particular messiah , the same promise should still continue to them and their children in the new dispensation , it is far from the apostles minde . for the apostle doth not make the eontinuance of the promise as the benefit consequent on their receiving christ , and the receiving of christ the condition of continuance of the promise : but the being of the promise is alleged as a thing already existent , nor is there any likelyhood that the apostle peter would urge them to so hard duties as repentance , receiving christ by so slender a reason as the continuance of the promise of visible church-membership and baptism to them and their infant children , yea , the text it self shewes that the things by which he would perswade them to receive christ , were the assurance of remission of sins , and receiving the gift of the holy ghost , and the alleging the promise , v is to take away the great objection against these great benefits from their crucifying of christ ▪ and their imprecation on them and their children , matth. . . if then master stephens build his word of command to baptize father and child , on that paraphrase , he builds on a foundation which will not hold . master blake addes ; to this the word repent refers , as may be made plain . but what he means by this assertion i do not well understand , it being ambiguous , what he means by [ this ] whether the paraphrase of master stephens , that the same promise should still continue to them and their children in the new dispensation , if they would receive jesus as the particular messiah , or the word of command to baptize father and child , and in like manner what kind of reference he means , whether as a medium to prove it , or as a motive to it . if he mean the same with that which his allegations seem to tend to , his meaning is , that the promise of visible church-state , was to the jewes as they had been formerly , if they did receive christ , and the term [ repent ] refers to it as the motive . now though i grant that the promise , acts. . . is alleged as a motive in a moral way to repentance v ▪ . yet i deny such a promise to be meant , v. . as mr. bl. and mr. stephens fancy . nor do any of mr. blakes allegatione prove it . for acts . . doth not speak of such a covenant as master blake means , but of that evangelical covenant wherein god promised christ and saving blessings by him . nor are the jews there termed children of the covenant onely , but also of the prophets . now the prophets there are the same with all the prophets , v. . and those jewes to whom , peter spake , were no otherwise their children , then in that they had been raised up of , and sent to that nation in their predecessors times , and they are in like manner called children of the covenant , because they were the posterity of those ancestors , specially abraham , to whom that covenant was made . but this doth not prove that they were then gods visible people , that the covenant of visible church-state did belong to them and their children , or that such a covenant is meant , acts . . what master blake allegeth from matth. . . matth. . . that they were in danger to be cast off , doth prove rather the contrary , thet the nation or body of the jewish people who had rejected christ , were not in covenant with god ; and although those particular persons , acts . . to whom peter spake , v. , . were more awakened then others , yet they could not be then said to be in the covenant of visible church-state , being not then believers in christ. what master blake allegeth and infers from matth. . , . luke . , . i assent to , but know not what it make● for his purpose . yea , me thinks his calling baptism to which peter exhorted , entrance into a new covenant-way , crosseth master stephens paraphrase of continuing the same promise to them and their children . in his third allegation he misreports me , as if i excluded all consideration of right in the jewes and their children from those words which are , acts . . whereas that which i said was this , that from the promise , acts . . ( what ever right be imported by it ) peter doth not infer their being baptized as a right or privilege , accruing to them in manner of a legal title and claim , but as a duty to which he perswades in a moral way . what good interpretation i give of those words , v. . suitable to peters exhortation ; i have set down , exam. pag. . review part . . pag. . and elsewhere master blake , if he could , should have overthrown it . master cobbets exception is answered in the next section . mr. bl. hath been oft told that the children are mentioned acts . . because of the imprecation , matth. . . that the words , acts . , . are carried in that way , that interest in covenant and covenant-seals in mr. bls sense formerly ran , is supposed , but not proved by him . that the jews yet persisting in their adherence to moses , not embracing christ , should be in covenant and have thereby a right to baptism , is such a dotage as me thinks master blake should disclaim . that the words of the text , acts . . hold out such a covenant-right , as master blake imagins , in scripture-language , according to the grand charter of heaven , i will be thy god and the god of thy seed , is said , but not proved by master blake . whether my exceptions against the paedobaptists exposition of acts . , . or master blakes answers are frivolous shifts the intelligent reader will perceive . my antipaedobaptism is enough to refute master john goodwins charge , and my censure of his interpretations others have made good . as for the text master blake mindes me of , job . . it may appear from my writings to be more pertinently applyable to himself , then me . had ever any man shewed me so much confused scribling , so many irrational unproved dictates , so many impertinent allegations in my w●itings as i and master blake have shewed in his , i would have silenced my self from writing any more , except a retractation of my former bookes . sect . xxii . animadversions on ch . . part . . of master thomas cobbet his just vindication touching the explication of acts . , . in which his exposition is shewed to be vain and mine justified . two points the paedobaptists do endeavour to confirm from acts . , . . that the children of believers are in the covenant . . that this being in covenant gives them right to baptism . this latter point is that which i am yet upon , for which how insufficient that text is hath been shewed in answer to master blake . my intent was in this place to have said no more of this text till i came to examine master ms. . concl. but sith master blake tels me master cobbet hath , p. . said that which utterly overthrowes my exposition , i shall examine what he saith , just vindic . ch . . , part . . sect. . he argues thus against my exposition . first , the promise is to you , that is , fulfilled to you accordingly as made to abraham , for sending of christ , &c. there wants scripture-proof , to make this sense of the promise , is to you , ( i. e. ) is fulfilled to you , nor yet doth that in acts . , . ye are the children of the promise , &c. prove this sense . ans ▪ my sense of the words is this . the promise of raising up of christ is now fulfilled to you , that is , for your benefit in the remission of your sins and blessing you , being called of god , and in like manner to your childeen , and to all that are afar off this to be the sense i gather , . from scriptures which seem to me to speak suitably thereto . the first is peters speech in the same ch . v. . of david . therefore being a prophet , and knowing that god had sworn with an oath to him , that of the fruit of his loynes he would raise up christ to sit on his throne , &c. hence i argue . it is most likely that peter ; v. . meant a promise mentioned before , and known to them to whom he spake . not the promise of the miraculous gift of the holy ghost , for reasons to be presently expressed ; therefore the promise mentioned , v. , , . the second is acts . , , , , , , . whence i argue . it is most likely that sense is best which hath most consonancy with the speech of the same author to the same persons , to the same purpose , on the like occasion . but the words , acts . , , , , , , . are such , and my sense of acts . , . hath most consonancy with those words . for in that speech he exhorts to repentance , v. . because that was fulfilled which was foretold by the prophets , to wit , christs resurrection ; and v. . the covenant mentioned is that of blessing all the kinreds of the earth in abrahams seed , that is , christ. and that this was fulfilled , v. . in raising up christ , and this was first to them , to wit , for their benefit , by blessing and converting them : which hath much consonancy with my sense of acts . , . therefore my sense is most likely . a third is acts . , , &c. which though it were spoken by another , to wit , paul , and to other company , yet by one endued by the same spirit , to persons in respect of their nation , and estate like , alleging v. . , . the same text and almost in the same words which peter used , acts . , , . now in that place paul makes the promise to the fathers to be the raising up of christ , and speaks of it as to them , in that it was fulfilled , and that for their benefit , the forgiveness of sins , v. . and thereupon exhorteth to repentance and embracing of christ v. . somewhat to like purpose might be alleged from rom. . , &c. but this is enough to shew that my exposition doth not want scripture-proof . . i gather my sense thus . the term [ is ] is in the present tense . this master cobbet takes notice of when he saith , that the apostle doth not say , the promise was to you . the proposition must be understood either as a proposition secundi adjecti , as logicians speak , the promise is to you , that is , the promise exists to you , so as that the verb substantive should note meer existence : but this construction [ the promise existes or hath existence to you ] seems to me to be defective in sense or truth . for the promise being a trans●unt act , was not then existent . nor were it true , do i conceive to what purpose he should mention the bare existence of the promise , which could be neither comfort to them , nor motive to the duty he pressed . or else the proposition must be tertii adjecti ; and if so , there must be a supplement either of the term [ made ] or the term [ fulfilled ] for i know no third . but not the term [ made ] for then the sense should be [ the promise is now made to you , &c. ] but this is not true , the promise was not then made to them , but to their fathers , acts . . therefore the supplement [ fulf●illed ] is most probable , it being the term used , acts . . and . . . this exposition of mine seems to me to be right , because it is opposite to the apostles scope , which was to direct ane erect those affrighted jewes to whom he spake . now the sense that i give is very proper to comfort them against the horrour of their fact in crucifying christ , and wishing his blood to be on them and their children , matth. . . by telling them as peter did , acts . , , , , , . that though they did unwittingly kill christ , yet god had thereby fulfilled his promise , even for their good and their children , even as joseph when he told his brethren , gen. . . gen. . , , that though they thought evil against him ▪ yet god meant it unto good , to bring to pass ; as it is this day to save much people alive . and this sense is a very fit motive to move them to repent and be baptized in the name of christ for remission of sins , by testifying that the promise of sending christ was fulfilled in the raising of christ from the dead ▪ . my exposition is confirmed , because all other expositions have less evidence , and are more liable to exceptions . the most likely exposition after that which i give , seems to be that which expounds the promise to be that of giving the holy ghost in the miraculous gifts , which is called , v. . the promise , luke . . and was mentioned in the next words before , acts . . and of this i confess the sense may be good thus understood . the promise of giving the holy ghost , joel . . is fulfilled in that which ye see and heare , acts . . to you , and your children , and all that are afar off , that is , for their benefit , by moving them to own christ. but me thinks if the promise were meant of that gift , it should be meant thus , the promise is to you , that is , god hath promised to give to each of you , &c. this gift of the holy ghost , because the words immediately before , v. . are , and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost . but thus the proposition should not be true ; for all afar off who were called of god , had not that gift , and therefore it was not promised them . nor had this sense been so fit as to comfort them sith that gift might be given ▪ and was to persons whom god rejected . as for the other exposition , that the promise is , that god will be a god to them and their children , as to abraham and his seed , gen. . . it cannot be the promise meant , acts . . for , . there is not the least intimation in the text of that promise . . there was no such promise in all the scripture , that god would be a god to those to whom peter then spake , and to their children as their children , no nor such a promise as this , i will be a god to a believer and his seed . for if this promise were made to the seed of every believer , then either god keepes it , or not . if not , then he breaks his word ; if he do , then he is a god to them . but that is not true : for neither in saving graces , nor in ecclesiastical priviledges , v.g. church-membership and baptism , is god a god to every one that is the seed or natural child of a believer . yet if it were true , it had been false , being spoken to those jewes , who were not then believers , nor perhaps many of them evet believers in christ. and it is most false , that the christian church-membership and baptism did belong to the jews as jews , by vertue of any covenant made with that nation . for then john baptist did ill to expostulate with them for coming to his baptism , matth. . . and to disswade them from alleging they had abraham to their father , v. . and to tell them of another sort of children of abraham that had more right to it then they . yea , john the baptist and the apostles did ill to require personal repentance and believing , if they had right to such priviledges by a promise without them . nor is the promise said to be to any children , but those that are called of god , and therefore not to infants uncalled , and consequently this scripture is very ill applyed to prove federall holyness of believers infants . master cobbet addes , secondly , it is sending of christ or of christ sent . but let it be considered , . that the apostle doth not say , the promise was to you , as in reference to the time of making it to the fathers , with respect unto them , or in reference to christ , who was not now to come , but already come , as the apostle proveth from v. , to . nor is it the use of the scripture , when mentioning promises as fulfilled , to express it thus in the present tense : the promise is to you , or to such and such , but rather to annex some expression that way , which evinceth the same , for which let rom. . . john . . ephes. . . nehe. . , . chron. . . kings . . acts . , , . and . , . josh. . . and . . matth. . , . and . . luke . , , , . and psal. . . rom. . , . be considered . ans. . how the verb substantive [ is ] in the present tense , and the promise referred to christ , who was now come , agrees with the words and scope of the apostle , is already shewed . and my sense is like or the same with master ms. when he said in his sermon , pa. . the plain strength of the argument , is god hath now remembred his covenant to abraham in sending that blessed seed , and the new annot. in locum ; the promise is to you , christ is promised both to jewes and gentiles : but the jewes had the first place . which is agreeable to the speeches of , mary , luke . , . and of zacharias , v. , , ▪ , , , . . it is true , that the expression in that manner is not usual , and it is confessed that in the places cited and many more the fulfilling of a promise is otherwise expressed . but what then ? doth it follow that is not the meaning which i give ? if it did , by the same reason , neither master cobbets is right . for it is usual to express a promise belonging to some of a thing yet to be done in some other expressions , as john . . pet. . . yea , in the place rom. . . of which master cobbet pa. . saith , for the promise i● to you or belongs to you , as rom. . . hath it , the expression is not in the dative case , as acts . . but in the genitive . but it is needfull to consider how master cobbet himself expounds the words , sect. . he saith thus , the promise is to your children : not , was to you , &c. as intending any legal blessing , but , a promise then in force after christs ascension , to effect some promised blessing [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] used to signify the free promise , or covenant of grace , to which they had visible right . sect. . remission of sins may not be excluded , but must be one principal thing intended . it is that promise to which baptism the seal is annexed . sect. . nor was abrahams charter less then what here avowed by the apostle , scil. that the promise even of sins , did belong to the jewes , and to their children in respect of external right and administration , and no more is pleaded for . but repent and be baptized de futuro ; for the promise in praesenti is to you , scil. in respect of external right . sect. . and this promise here mentioned , acts . , . containing in it remission of sins , and so the righteousness of faith . the promise of remission of sins is or belongeth to you ; scil. in the external right and administration of it . so then according to master cobbets exposition the promise meant is remission of sins , and of this it is said that it is , not , it was to them , and the manner how is , that it is to them , or it belongs to them in ●he external right and administration of it . the promise or covenant he means here belonging to them to be abrahams charter , gen. . . jerem. . ▪ . holding out at least an external interest therein to them being jewes , not yet believing fathers , or repenting : for that is rather mentioned as exerted after many words besides , v. , . yea , rather they were offensive members of the jewish church ( which was then a true visible gospel-church ) they were as persons under censure , though they had jus ad baptismum , yet not jus in baptismo without repentance , yet they were covenant-fathers , and dispensers of the external right of it to their children , though their children were not called . and herein is the difference between them and those afar off ; the gentiles ; it is to the jews actually , to the gentiles de praesenti , onely intentionally , till they be called of god , which he understands not of an effectual saving call , but calling into visible covenant and church-estate , and then it belongs to their children as to the jewes . this i gather to be his meaning out of scattered passages , sect. , , . i shall , . observe some things concerning the exposition in general . . clear my own exposition from objections . . make some animadversions on several passages in the latter sections of this ch . of master cobbet . i observe that he brings no proof but his own saying , that the promise is that , gen. . . or that it belongs to any in external right or administration , or that the apostle meant the belonging of the promise to them in respect of external right and administration . for to say , it is the promise to which baptism seals , is to prove an unknown thing by a more unknown , sith baptism neither there nor elsewhere is termed the seal of the promise or covenant , nor doth the apostle mention baptism as sealing or administring the promise , nor do i understand that there is any such thing as an external right and administration of the promise , or by vertue of the promise , but by vertue of the command . and therefore i judge all this talk to be a parcel of gibberish , which the scripture yields no hint of , but paedobaptists have formed it from those leading errors , that the nature of sacraments is to be seals of the covenant , that the reason of a person being circumcised , was interest in the covenant , gen. . . that there is the same reason of baptism as of circumcision besides , i would know to what the right is , and of what the administration is which he cals external , and in what sense it is called external . external he seems to make all one with quoad homines , & in foro ecclesiae , and the promise is of remission of sins ; the sense then is , you have a right and administration of remission of sins in respect of men , and in the court of the church . a right is a title to a thing which a man may claim , an administration is a serving or bringing in , as when a deacon gives money to the poor , g●hazi reacheth water to elishah . if there be sense in master cobbets exposition , this should be the meaning . you jewes who crucified christ , and your children , though neither yet believers , nor repenting persons , have a right and administration of the promise of remission of sins , gen. . . though not in respect of god or the court of heaven or your own consciences , yet before or by men or in the court of the church , so that you may claim absolu●ion from them , and they do or ought to administer it to you by a sentence or baptism or some other way . which were to make the apostles speak non-sense , and impious falshood : non-sense , the words bearing no such meaning according to the scripture-use or other approved authors : falshood , in that he should tell them they had such a right and administration as they had not , and this impious , sith it tends to harden them in impenitency and unbelief , and to justify preachers or churches in an unrighteous sentence , wherein remission of sins is pronounced to belong to persons impenitent and unbelieving in sensu composito while such . the like may be said if the right be meant to visible church-membership , and baptism and administration of them , the speech would be non-sense ; neither scripture , nor any author at that time expressing these things by that which peter spake , acts . . and the speech were false , they then having no right or administration of either , and it had been impious to say so to them ; for it had tended to move them to assume that to them , and to justify the yielding it to them , which had been injuriously and profanely both arrogated and yielded to them . yet further , what a ridiculous salve had this been to consciences so tortured with the sense of that most horrid act of killing christ , to tell them , the promise of remission of sins was to them in respect of external right and administration before men or in the face of the church , though not before god or in their own consciences , or that they had outward right and administration of visible church-membership and baptism , i may use his own words , mutatis mutandis ? sect. . they were not troubled for want of externall right and administration , and to tell them of such right and administration was both impertinent and unsatisfactory , and it could minister but little comfort to sin-sick soules to promise them such things , which they might have , and yet die in their sins , matth. . . besides , it seems to be a contradiction to say , the promise is to you de praesenti , in respect of external right and administration , and yet you have not jus in re , and in like manner to say that the promise is to all afar off de praesenti , in respect of external right and administration , and yet it belongs not to them actually , but intentionaly . and whence hath master cobbet warrant to say that the promise belongs one way to the jewes , and another way to the gentiles ? or that the promise belonged to the jew and his child in respect of external right and administ●ation , though uncalled ? lastly , that i not grate any further on this soare , where doth master cobbet find in scripture any mention of gods calling into visible covenant , and church-estate ? or how can it be true that the church to which those jewes who crucifyed christ joyned , containing the unbelieving scribes and pharisees and high priests , and the people of the jewes consenting with them , was a gospel-church , visibly interested in the covenant o● grace , the subject of the gospel , and the same essentially with that gospel or christian church , and that there was no other visible church , then that of the jewes ▪ credat judaeus apella , non ego . but of these somewhat in the animadversions following . master cobbet against my exposition writes further thus . . they knew already to their cost , that christ indeed was sent amongst them , and to be that jesus or saviour of his people from their sins , acts . , . compared with matth . . and this was cold comfort to them , to tell them of that which wounded them , unless there be withall some promise annexed and supposed in his being come . the promise meerly of christs coming could not comfort them , unless also in and by christ come in the flesh , there be some promise made to them touching the removall of those burdens of guilt which lay upon them . the blessing principally propounded to them , for their reviving , healing , succour , and support , it was not christs sending , nor his being sent , but emission of sins , v. . wherefore unless the apostle argue impertinently , this may not be excluded , but must be one principall thing intended . . it is that promise to which baptism the seal is annexed , now the seal is ever to the covenant , which is not barely to christs being sent in the flesh , but to benefits contained in promises by his coming . ans. had master cobbet heeded my words in my exam. pag. . and was it not a comfortable argument for men in that case to be told , that notwithstanding all this the promise of christ and remission of sins by him , was yet to them and their children , &c. and pag. . the promise which is made to abraham is now fulfilled in sending christ to you and your children , and to all that are afar off as many as the lord our god shall call , that they might be turned from their iniquity , and baptized in his name for the remission of their sins , these objections had been spared , they proceeding all against me upon this mistake ( which my words heeded might have rectifyed ) as if i had expounded the promise , acts . . of christs being sent and coming without some promise annexed , and particularly that of remission of sins by christ ▪ whereas i did expresly include it in my paraphrase ( as my words recited shew ) gathering it from the mention of it , v. . and conceiving it to be implyed in the expression [ to you , v. . ] that is , for your benefit by remission of your sins . and therefore these three objections are answered by shewing how according to my exposition the promise of christ sent includes also the benefit of remission of sins . but on the contrary all these objections are against master cobbets own exposition . for , . it had been but cold comfort to tell them of a promise of remission of sins onely in external right and administration . . it had not been available for their reviving , healing , succour , and support . . according to paedobaptists suppositions , baptism is not a seal of that covenant in which remission of sins in external right and administration onely is promised , but , as it is in the directory , it is a seal of the covenant of grace , of our ingrafting into christ , and of our union with him , of remission of sins , regeneration ; adoption , and life eternal . therefore the promise , acts . . according to master cobbets own arguments , and paedobaptists hypotheses is not of remission of sins onely in ex●●rnal right and administration . master cobbets third exception , sect. . about those afar off , whether israelites in the disp●rsion , or in after ages , or the gentiles be meant , hath been considered before . but whereas he saith , the apostles afore peter ▪ sermon , acts . knew by christs declaration of his minde to all his apostles touching the discipling and inchu●ching of the gentiles the conversion of them , onely they knew not whether it might be by joyning them first by way of addition , as proselytes to the jewes , rather then by gathering them into other distinct churches ; his speech is not right . for , . though it is true , christ had declared his minde , matth. . . mark . . about conversion of the gentiles , yet either peter understood not christs minde , or did not remember it afore the vision , acts . . it is apparent from acts . . that the exception against peter was not for that he had gathered cornelius and his company into a distinct church , and not joyned them as proselytes to the jewes , but that he went in to men uncircumcised , and did eat with them , which sh●wes they held it unlawfull so much as to preach and converse with any uncircumcised , though he were a proselyte of the gate , as cornelius appears to have been . as for not joyning the gentiles as proselytes to the jewes , they knew that well enough , that they were not to be so joyned , sith neither john the baptist , nor christ or his disciples did ever by baptism joyn any as proselytes to the jewes , but did take even the jewes themselves ( who embraced their doctrine ) into distinct churches or schooles , though they did not erect any new political states or common-wealths , as the nation of the jewes was . master cobbet further excepts against me in these words . . it 's affirmed , that this promised of sending christ was to them , their children , and those afar off , as many as our god should call , that they may be turned from their iniquity , and be baptized for remission of sins , and yet also that the promise , what ever it be supposed to be , was to them all , with that limitation , that they repent , or that they be called . what ? is it to as many as the lord shall call , or convert , or cause to repent ? and yet is it , that they may be turned from their iniquity ? is it to persons called , and yet also to uncalled persons ? is it to them that they may be called , yet the persons to whom the promise is , are as many as are supposed to be called ? how can these two be right ? yea , it is to them all , upon condition that they be called , and yet also , that it is to them , that they may be called . why , if it be to them , that by christ they may be called , then is that promise to persons as yet uncalled , and their calling is an effect following their interest in that promise as a cause , and not preceding their interest in the promise as a condition . ans. the promise is of sending of christ for remission of sins , their calling is a consequent of christs being sent , who was sent to turn them from iniquity , that is , to call them ; and this calling was for a further benefit , remission of sins through christ sent , and so their calling is a condition of the remission of sins by christ sent , nor is the promise of remission of sins by christ sent to any but those who are called . the calling is a consequent to christs sending as a prior benefit , and an antecedent to remission of sins as a subsequent . and thus the knot master cobbet conceives is easily loosed . sect . xxiii . the arguments drawn from acts . , . against the connexion between covenant-interest and baptism-right , and infant-baptism are vindicated from master cobbets answers . there are other passages in the following sections , on which i animadvert , sect. . he saith , acts . he doth not intend it thus , your children ( i. e. ) abrahams children ; for abraham is considered rather by him as a patern , having the precedential copy of the covenant mentioned . and it had been incongruous to have said ; it is to your children , that is , to abrahams children . concerning which passage i say , that though i conceive it a mistake to understand by [ your children ] abrahams children , yet master cobbets words intimate sundry things which are liable to animadversions . . the promise , acts . . is supposed by others , and by master cobbet , sect. . to be that , gen . . i will be a god to thee and thy seed after thee , but this was the covenant it self , and not a precedential copy of the covenant mentioned . i think master cobbet cannot shew any other after copy , in which god promised to be the god of a believer and his seed , which it is confessed he did to abraham . . that abraham should be considered rather as a pattern to fathers , then as a particular person is said without any proof ; nor is it true , . because it is understood in scripture as meant of abraham as a particular person , gal. . , &c. . because if he were considered as a pattern , the promise should be to others as to him , gen. , . but that is not true , the promise is made to none besides as to abraham , gen. . . and whereas master cobbet observes that the promise to them and their children cannot be meant of the children as their children after the spirit , because they could not be such spiritual fathers to any children of theirs , themselves being not yet such relates , as believing fathers , nor having such correlates as children after the spirit ; this doth plainly shew that the promise to them and their children is not all one with a promise to believers and their children , and the mention of the children , acts . . is not to intimate any priviledge arising to the child from the faith of the parent . for , as master cobbet saith truly , as yet they acted not faith and repentance , nor doth peter say , the promise is or belongs to you , for you have repented , and consequently believed . as for master cobbets inference that if th● imprecation of the jewes , matth. . . were the occasion of peters words acts . . then the promise must be also to their babes , on whom they wished christs blood , else the plaister were too narrow for their wounds rising from the guilt of bloud wished upon their children , including , and not excluding their babes ; it followes not . for , . though babes be children , yet children indefinitely put without any universal sign may be meant of others then babes or infants . . the wish may be meant of infants , and the promise also , yet not to take place or to be accomplished on them or to them in their infancy . that curse and that promise which is made to a mans children being for present infant● is verifyed if it happen to them at twenty years old , they being then th●●●me persons , which they were when they were but a day old . . will master cobbet assert , the promise must be as large as the curse ? if so , then the promise must belong to their children , elder or younger , whether believing or unbelieving ▪ p●nitent or impenitent , for the wish was on all absolutely . but master cobbet ( i presume ) will not assert the promise of remission of sins was in praesenti to all the children of the jewes to whom peter spake , elder and younger , believing and unbelieving , penitent and impenitent in respect of external right and administration . therefore he must limit the term [ your children ] if he will have his own exposition to hold good , and consequently the children , acts . . must be fewer then those the imprecation lighted on , mat. . . sect. . that which master cobbet saith , that those who say the promise made to abraham of sending christ and now fulfilled , is to them , in effect say as those that expound [ the promise is to you ] that is , is offered to you , is not right . for the fulfilling notes something past , the offer is of something to be yet done or attained , yet it is true that the speech of peter did contain not onely an offer , but also an assurance of remission of sins to the called by vertue of the promise fulfilled in christs coming . of the sense of the words , acts . . i have spoken somewhat before . the terms [ children of the prophets and of the covenant ] are appropriated to the jewes , as rom. , . they being the onely people to whom the prophets were sent , as beza annot ▪ in locum , id est , ●i ●stis quibus peculiariter destinati fuerunt prophetae , & quibuscum foedus est sancitum , ex hebraeorum idiotismo , qu●m supra aliquoties annotavimus . huc pertinet quod ait paulus , rom. . . and when he saith , they were children of the covenant made with the fathers , and not of the fathers with whom the covenant is made , the intent is not to shew that it 's meant of church and federal interest in them , as covenant-fathers and dispensers , or to shew that the covenant was as seed , by vertue whereof they considered as foederally and ecclesiastically priviledged , did spring in master cobbets sense of outward church-membership and initiating ordinance : but the plain meaning is , that they were the people to whom the first exhibition and tender of the gospel did belong , in that they were the posterity of the fathers with whom the covenant was made : and so the jewes had a priority of not onely external interest in the covenant , but also internal , though when the gentiles were called , the priviledges of the covenant were equal to the gentiles with the jewes , and the condition of the promise , that is , the obtaining remission of sins by the fulfilling of the promise , is equally to jew and gentile savingly believing , sect. . master cobbets conceit of the term [ afar off , acts . . ] that it is , meant of their being strangers from actual interests in the covenants of promise , and common-wealth of israel , or the visible political church , ephes. . , , . supposeth , . the terms 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those afar off , acts . . to be the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 who were sometimes afar off , ephes. . . but the phrases are not the same , and it is for reasons formerly given more likely that the remoteness , acts . . is meant of place or descent . . that the remoteness , ephes. . . was in respect of external church interest , and so in like manner , acts . . but ephes. . . the remoteness was such as was taken away by the blood of christ , which is more then external church-interest , and the nearness such as [ you and your children , acts . . ] had not then attained to , but were then afar off from god , or as it is , v. . had not access by one spirit unto the father . and therefore master cobbets sayings that the jewes and their children , acts . . were not then when peter spake afar off , as the t●rm is meant , ephes. , . but rather nigh in that sense , and that the promise is to them actually , & quoad hominem , and to the other , that is , the genteles , afar off intentionally , & quoad deum , even whilest afar off , and uncalled , are but conceits arising from the mistakes of peters speech , acts . . and pauls , ephes. . . it is true , to the jewes indefinitely , that is , to that nation or people did the adoption and promises belong , yet not to every particular person of that nation ; for as it is said , rom. . . to whom pertaineth the adoption , and the promises ; so it is said . v. , . to whom pertain the service of god , of whom as concerning the flesh christ came : and yet these things not true of every israelite . it is true , moses made a covenant , deut. . . with the unborn which were not actually existent in church-estate and humane being , but that this was a covenant wherein covenant-grace is expressed , and that it is verified intentionally , & quoad deum , is besides the text , which speaks not of gods making a covenant , but of moses , v. . and this covenant was obliging to duty , not expressing covenant-grace . that which master cobbet saith , that the righteousness of faith according to the covenant , gen. . . which containeth the promise of justification , was by circumcision visibly sealed unto the jewes & their children by gods own appointment , circumcision being in the sacramental nature of it , a visible seal of the righteousness of faith it self , and not meerly in a personal respect to abraham , as applyed by his faith to justification , hath either none or very little truth . for though it be true that the promise , gen. . . was of the righteousness of faith according to the more hidden sense of the words , yet it was so onely to the spiritual seed of abraham by faith , rom. . , . gal. . , , . nor was circumcision appointed by god to seal it to jewes and their children , nor circumcision in the sacramental nature of it , a visible seal of the righteousness of faith , nor is any mans circumcision termed in the scripture a seal of the righteousness of faith , but abrahams , which was not a seal as applyed by his faith to his justification , but as a seal to him that he had the righteousness of faith before he was circumcised , and that all that believe as he did shall be justified , as he was , rom. . , . master cobbet addes , nor will it suffice to say , that covenant was a mixt covenant . it held forth temporal things indeed , but by vertue of a covenant of grace , psal. . . as doth the promise now , tim. . . but it holds forth also spiritual things in the external right and administration thereof to all , albeit in the internal operation , as to some . the promises are to them all , rom. . . scil. in the former sense ; and yet , ver . . some onely are the children of the promise , and the choice seed in that general covenant , scil. in respect of the saving efficacy of the covenant upon them , v. . and the same distinction is now held out in such sort , amongst persons in church-estate . ans. it sufficeth against those that make the covenant , gen. . to be a covenant of evangelical grace onely , and make other promises of temporal things to be onely administrations of it , and make circumcision a seal of the covenant of grace , because it was the t●ken of that covenant , to say , that 〈◊〉 covenant , gen. . . was a mixt covenant containing promises proper to abrahams natural posterity as well as evangelical to his spiritual , and 〈◊〉 the covenant is rather to be denominated from the former , which are more manifestly held forth in it then the latter , and that the reason why circumcision was appointed , was the signifying and assuring the former rather then the latter , and so the circumcising of infants was not from interest evangelical , but national or proper to the people of abraham . nor is master cobbets exception of any validity , that because there is a promise of the life that now is , tim. . . therefore the covenant now is mixt . for the promise of the life that now is , is not of any outward inheritance peculiar to the godly and their children , as abraham had of the land of canaan for him and his , but of fatherly care , and sanctified use of outward things . nor doth psal. . . prove that the inheriting canaan , being great and prosperous , gen. . , , , , . were by vertue of a covenant of grace , but it rather appears from many places , deut. . &c. heb. . . that they were by the covenant of works in keeping the law of moses , unto which circumcision did oblige , gal. . . the promises gen. . so far as they were evangelical did belong to abrahams seed by faith onely , nor doth the apostle any where interpret that promise , gen. . . as holding forth spiritual things in the external ▪ right and administration of it , and the spiritual things assured therein are by the apostle determined , rom. . . to belong onely to the elect , not to all . nor doth rom. . . say , the promises pertained to all the jewes , nor to any in respect of external right and administration . and though i deny ▪ not but that persons may be said to be outwardly in the covenant of grace in appearance to m●n , when they make a profession of faith , though not in reality , yet i deny that god hath made the covenant or promise of grace to any other then the elect & true believers , nor appointed any way of sealing it to any other . nor is it true that baptism as a covenant-seal presupposeth a covenant-right , or that the jewes , acts . , . had any covenant or church-right to baptism , jus ad r●m , though not jus in re , afore they were believers on christ , nor had they any right to baptism in that they were members of the church of the jewes , nor was the commission of baptism first given by god to john baptist in reference to that church of the jewes , as a seal of their membership therein , but of their owning johns doctrine , becoming his disciples , and joyned into a school or church distinct from the pharasees , and other jewish church-rulers , though they adhered till after christs death to the law of moses and temple-service . nor is there any truth in it that peter required of the jewes repentance afore baptism , acts . . because though they had covenant or church-right thereto , yet being adult members under offence , and admonished thereof by peter : they might for their obstinacy against such an admonition notwithstanding church or covenant-right have been debarred that seal . for , . the christian church and the jewish church of which those jewes were members were in their profession not onely distinct , but also opposite ; therefore there was no church-right from being members in the one to be members of the other . . for their fact of which they were admonishde by peter , they were so far from being in danger of being cast out of the jewish church in which they were members , that they were more sure of being cast out for repenting of their sin , and being baptized into the name of christ , john . . . peter doth not act in his speech , acts . , ● . as an elder in the jewish church , for he was none , but as an apostle of christ : nor was their fact objected to them as an offence to the church of which ●●ey were , but confessed by themselves as an heavy burden that lay on their conscience : nor was peters advice given to remove a church-censure for re-admission to a seal , but to ease their consciences , and to bring them to the faith of christ and communion of that church into which they had never been admitted . but master cobbet against my first exception saith , those jewes were offensive members of that jewish church , which was a true visible church , and not yet dischurched and divorced by the lord ; they were then in the church of the gospel , and so externally in covenant and church-estate also , as being yet in the olive and kingdom of god , and not cast out , untill their unbelief , or total and final rejection of the covenant as ratified in jesus as that promised messiah , rom. . . to which the jewes had not as yet come . ans. a church of the gospel is such a company as avoucheth the gospel , the gospel was that jesus was the christ ; to the being in the church of the gospel , it is not sufficient that there hath not been a total or final rejection of the covenant , but it is necessary there be an explicit believing and owning of christ , john . . to be a people so cast off as to have the offer of grace taken from them , presupposeth such a rejection , acts . . mat. . . but to be a gospel-church or member of a gospel-church , requires more then a non-rejection , to wit , an express avouching of the gospel . non-rejection doth not make a gospel-church or church-member ; if it did , the salvage americans that never heard of the gospel , and so have not rejected it , should be a gospel-church and church-members . yet that jewish church of which the jewes , acts . . were of , and those jewes themselves had rejected christ with much violence , john . . acts . , , . and therefore they could have no covenant or church-right , no not externally quoad homines from their standing in that church , by which they might have claimed admission into the christian church by baptism without repentance , and faith in christ , no not though they were supposed to have been without any scandalous sin deserving excommunication or suspense from the seal . but master cobbet is bold to avouch , that this church was a gospel-church visibly interessed in the covenant of grace , the subject of the gospel , and the same essentially with that gospel , or christian church : which to me is such a paradox , as is by no means to be received . for then that church should be a gospel-church , which did obstinately adhere to the law , and they interessed in the covenant of grace , who sought righteousness by the works of the law , and they a christian church who denyed , persecuted , killed christ , and avouched themselves moses his disciples , john . . not christs . and if that church and the christian be the same essentially ▪ he that was admitted to the jewish church was admitted to the christian , then baptism was needless , yea , irrigular for the entering and admission of a believing jew into the christian church , contrary to that , cor. . . for they were in the christian church before , in that they were in the jewish church essentially the same , then did peter ill to exhort them to save themselves from them , acts . . then was luke mistaken in saying v. . the lord added them daily to the church after they were converted and baptized , for they were in the same church before ; all which are in my apprehension palpable absurdities . but master cobbet thus backs his assertion ; unless , whilst the jewish church stood , any will say , there was no evangelical visible church in the world , but a legal church ; for there was no other visible church , then that of the jewes . ans. the perpetual visibility of the true church is a point in which papists and protestants differ . the papists assert a perpetual visibility of the church in pastors and people , as sensible as any other society of men ; so that at any time one may point with his finger and say , this is the church , the protestants , that though it abide always upon the earth , holding the whole faith without change , and containing a certain number that constantly profess it , yet this number may be very small , and their profession so secret among themselves , that the world and such as love not the truth , shall not see them , they remaining so hidden as if they were not at all . thus doctor john white in his way to the true church , sect . . digress . . sets down the difference . if master cobbet mean ( as he seems to do ) a visible political church in the former sense , then it is no absurdity to say , at some time while the jewish church stood there was no evangelical visible church in the world . for at the time of christs passion when the disciples were scattered , the shepherd being smitten , matth. . . there was no such visible evangelical church ; yea , some of the papists themselves quoted by doctor white in the same place , hold that about the time of christs passion , the true faith remained in none but onely the virgin mary . alsted . suppl . panstr . cath . chami . de eccl . l. . c. . s. . d●in●e tempore passionis christi ecclesia non erat visibilis , talis scilicet , in qua erant praela●i & subditi , pastores & oves . nam ecclesia visibilis non erat apud pharisaeos & scribas ▪ illi enim impudenter , & sceleratè errarunt . but in the latter sense which the protestants follow , we can assign an evangelical visible church in the world , distinct from the jewish , while the jewish church stood . alsted . ubi supra . ergo ecclesia externa etiam tota deficere potest , remanentibus occultis fidelibus ; quales tum temporis erant simeon , anna , nicodemus , &c. at the time of christs incarnation and before there was in the protestant sense a true visible evangelical church in simeon , anna , and those to whom she spake , who looked for redemption in jerusalem , luke . . in the time of john baptists and christs ministery , many baptized by john and christs disciples , john . , . in the time of christs passion , besides the apostles , and those women who professed , joseph of ari●●th●a and nicodemus are expressed , john . , . to have owned christ. and these were a distinct church from the j●wish , i mean the priests , scribes , pharisees and people who denyed christ , though not in their political government , yet in their profession of faith , which is necessary according to protestants to make a company to be a visible evangelical church , and essentially the same with the church christian , ames . medul . th. l. . c. . ecalesia est societus fidelium ; quia idem illud in professione constituit ecclesiam visibilem , quod interna & reali sua natura constituit ecclesiam mystica●● , id est , fides . but master cobbet from his erroneous dictates would frame an answer to the argument brought from peters words , acts . , . to prove that the imagined covenant-right is not sufficient to intitle to baptism , without repentance and faith , sith even of those jewes to whom he said the promise is , he pre-required repentance to baptism , and thus he writes . that then something further was required by peter , of the adult jewes , to actual participation of baptism , and it was not because their church of which they were members was no true visible evangelical church , since it was gods onely visible church , in the time of christs incarnation , of which he lived and died a member ; and none will say , he was no member of any evangelical church , but of a legal ; nor was it because the seal of baptism was not administrable , in , or by , or to that church of the jewes . ans. the true reason , why we conceive peter required repentance of the adult jewes to baptism , is because christ appointed none to be baptized , but his disciples ▪ such as did repent & believe in him as the messiah , matth. . . mark . . and so peter here , and philip , acts . , . understood christs minde . the other reasons that the jewish church was no true visible evangelical church , and that the seal of baptism was not administrable , in , or by , o● to that church of the jewes , i know not who assignes them as the cause why peter required of adult jewes repentance to baptism , so that if master cobbet did make void these reasons , and not the genuine reason assigned by us , his answer is insufficient to the argument . however i shall examine what he saith , sith his writing hath been crackt of as unanswerable . . by removing the first reason , he intimates that the objectour conceived it necessary that a person to be baptized be a member of a true visible evangelical church and this he denies not , yea he seems to conceive that it is needfull he be a member of such a particular church visible in respect of outward order , and government by elders and people united in covenant . but this i conceive not true . . because no more is needfull then is required in the institution . but in the institution to be a disciple of christ , a penitent believer on him is required and no more , matth. . . mark . . acts . . not to be a member of a particular visible evangelical church . ergo. . no more is needfull to baptism then what philip required of the eunuch , acts . , . peter of cornelius , acts . , . acts . , . paul of the jaylour and others , acts . . but they required no more but to be a disciple of christ , or a penitent believer . ergo. . if it were requisite to be a member of a particular church , cornelius was not rightly baptized : but this is not true : ergo. the consequence of the major is proved , because cornelius afore his baptism was not a member of any particular church ▪ not of the jewish , for he was uncircumcised ; and counted unclean by them , acts . . not of the christian ; for they excepted against peter for going in to him , acts . , . regularly a man is not a member of a particular church till he is baptized , baptism going before joyning to the church , acts . , . therefore it is not necessary a person be a member of a particular visible church afore baptism . . master cobbet takes on him to prove that the church of which the adult jewes , acts . . were members was a true evangelical church . . because so in the time of christs incornation . but this followeth not , it might be so at christs incarnation , and yet not be so at the time of peters speech , acts . , . they having expresly denyed christ. . because he lived and dyed a member of that church , and none will say , he was no member of any evangelical church , but of a legal . to which i say , . christ lived & dyed the head of the evangelical church of jewes and gentiles , but not as a subordinate member in it , though he were subject to the law of moses , and did yield obedience to it while it was his fathers will it should stand in force . . but that he died as a member of the jewish church , to wit , that party of which the jewes , acts . . were a part , is not true , he being an out-cast from them , and made a curse for us . . if it should be granted he were a member of that church , he had been a member not of an evangelical church , but legal , or rather manifestly antichristian . . by removing the second reason of peters requiring repentance afore baptism of the adult jewes , he intimates that this objectour conceived it necessary that baptism be administred in or by or to a church , such as the jewes was not , and he grants the former , and denies the latter . but how or whence it is deduced that baptism must be administrable in or by or to a church i understand not . baptism hath been and may be lawfully administred without the presence of any church , as in the baptism of the eunuch by philip , acts . . to a person who is member of no particular church , as in cornelius his baptism , and by a minister without consent of any church , as in the same cases , and to a single person , though no church were baptized , as in the eunuchs case . then he asserts the seal of baptism administrable in , or by , or to the church of the jewes , that he may maintain a title to baptism , though suspended by reason of their sin in the jewes from an imagined covenant-right , and church-membership antecedent to their repentance , which are wild fancies . but let us view what he writes . for it 's evident ( saith master cobbet ) that the commission of baptism was first given by god , to john baptist , in reference to that church of the jewes as a seal of their membership therein ; the same god that told him , who should , baptize with the holy ghost , he sent him to baptize , john . . the pharisees themselves could not deny johns baptism to be from heavens authority , mat. . , . and baptism being a church-ordinance , to be in ordinary dispensation or administred onely in and by a church of christ , that baptism was at that time the jewish church-ordinance , so far forth , there was no other floor , wherein all sorts which john baptized , whether they proved chaffy hypocrites , or solid grain upright ones , were in his and christs time interessed , matth. . , . this was then the onely floor , or visible church of christ ( for in the invisible church is no chaffe ) [ his ] floor ; he shall purge [ his ] floor . ans. it is granted , john was sent by god to baptize , and that the people or church of the jewes were christs floor , and that in that floor or people were chaffe and wheat , bad and good , reprobate and elect ones . but this proves not the commission of baptism first given by god to john baptist in reference to that church of the jewes , as a seal of their membership therein . for what consequence is there in this , god sent john to the jewes , he had his authority to baptize those of the jewes , who repented , therefore he sealed their membership in the church of the jewes , and baptism was administrable in , or by , or to that church of the jewes ? it seems to me that the contrary followes , john was sent ●o baptize , he preacheth repentance , tells them that it availed not them to say abraham was their father gathers them into a distinct school or society from the pharisees and lawyers , luke . , . directs them to christ , who should sever chaffe and wheat ; therefore he was not given by god in reference to that church of the jewes as a seal of their membership therein , but severed a people from them by repentance and baptism , and that baptism was not administrable in , or by , or to that church of the jewes , but in a distinct company , by a select officer , to a severed people from that church . nor do i know it to be true that baptism is a church-ordinance , to be in ordinary dispensation administred onely in and by a church of christ , but conceive it a ministerial ordinance to be administred by one single minister without the presence or consent of a church of christ : nor do i think baptism was at that time the jewish ordinance being neither appointed in their law , nor by ministers chosen by them , nor by their authority , nor according to their direction ▪ nor for the setling of their church-discipline , or authority , but in these and all other respects opposite or distinct from the jewish church . and although i grant the jewish people or church ( though pareus com in locum saith , dominus areae suae , h. e. ecclesiae . imo totius mundi ) christs floor , yet from hence it followes not they were christs visible church , there being other reason why they are called christs floor , because christ imployed his fanne , to wit , his preaching among them , being minister of the circumcision , rom. . . though they were not christs visible church , that is , a company or people professing themselves to be his disciples . nor is it true that in john baptists and christs time , all sorts which john baptized , hypocrites , or upright ones , were interessed in the jewish church as christs floor , nor any such thing proved from matth. . , . the being in the floor importing onely their position , no benefit or interest accruing to them thereby . but master cobbet goes on . into this church-fellowship also did christs own disciples by that new way of initiation , visibly seal persons , which were the reformed part of that jewish church , continuing still their relation to those officers of the jewish church , and their fellowship in the church-ordinances , then dispensed , and not separating from the same , either gathering into distinct churches , or calling to them other ordinary church-officers , which yet were not actually given by christ , untill upon his ascension , ephes. . , , . ans. the disciples of christ did not visibly seal persons by that new way of initiation into the jewish church-fellowship ; the fellowship they had in the jewish church , was by their birth and circumcision and the law they were under , which they submitted to , while it was in force , and observed such legal ordinances as were appointed them , acknowledging the priests and other officers of the jewes according to their place : yet in respect of profession of doctrine they were by baptism separated from the jewes , and were gathered into a distinct church , had christ and his apostles and the . as their officers in ordinary afore the ascension of christ : nor is there one jot of scripture that doth in the least countenance this fond conceit of master cobbet , that jewish church-membership gave title to baptism , or baptism visibly sealed persons into jewish church-fellowship . master cobbet having cashiered the spurious reasons ( as he imagins ) why peter required of the jews , to whom he said , the promise is repentance afore baptism , he takes on him to assigne the genuine reasons thus . but the reason rather was , partly because ( as was said ) they were under such offence . ans. he required repentance , because they had sinned in crucifying christ , but repentance was not required to take away the offence of the church the jewes were of , nor for the removing of a suspension from the seal . for peter was no jewish church-officer , neither did any of the jewish church in way of discipline deal with those jewes by any church-act , tending to their correction for that sin , yea , the rulers of the jewes with the people did generally avow that act as well done : nor was any thing more offensive to them then the profession of christ , and repentance for the killing of him . but peter requires repentance as a necessary prerequisite universally to baptism , and as the way to remission of sins , which their perplexed soules needed . master cobbet addes : and partly because , albeit their church were a true evangelical church , yet it was not so pure and perfect , but had many gross mixtures both of ceremonial administrations , which were now to be laid aside , and of most palpably and openly corrupt , and rotten members . ans. neither doth master cobbet offer any proof for this his speech , neither is there any likelyhood that peter ever intended to urge repentance by reason of these things , sith in none of his speeches he doth take exceptions at their church by reason of them , nor had this been a sufficient reason to urge them to repentance afore baptism , because though they had covenant and church-right to baptism , yet their right was to be suspended to the seal without repentance , because they had gross ceremonial mixtures , and openly corrupt members , the jewish church of which they were members being a gospel-church & essentially the same with the christian , if master cobbet say true ; for if this were a reason , the new-engl●●● elders do ill to admit godly persons to the seal with them , which came from ● pa●ish-church in england , in which were the like mixtures , and corrupt members without like repentance ▪ nor doth it appear that those jewes had any hand in those ceremonial administrations ; and though they sinned a great sin in crucifying christ , yet it wa● through ignorance , acts . . in a word , were it granted master cobbet that peter did require repentance for any of these reasons , yet the argument is no whit infringed thereby , that bare interest in the covenant doth not give title to baptism without repentance , sith it did not give title to these jewes , even then when notwithstanding their offence , and the corruptions in their church , yet the promise was asserted to belong to them de praesenti in respect of external right and administration , if master cobbets exposition hold good , which is directly opposite to the requiring of repentance to baptism by reason of a suspension of their right to the seal by reason of offence and corrupt mixtures . but let 's hear master cobbet a little further . and partly , saith he , because it was now requisite , not onely to acknowledg the promised m●ssiah of abrahams loynes , to be he alone , which by his bloud should come actually , as well as virtually , to ratifie the covenant of grace , visibly made with them , as they did in receiving the seal of circumcision , but that they own the lord jesus , who was crucified by , and among them , as he which alone did thus : which amongst other testimonies baptism witnesseth , therefore more was now required of the adult jews than formerly , which yet was not required of their unripe children . ans. i deny not circumcision to have had this use , that it might signify , that the promised messiah should come out of abrahams loynes , and i take it as certain that baptism was appointed , that thereby the baptized should own the lord jesus , and witness that he was the messiah , and that this was the reason why even the jewes circumcised , what ever their interest in the promise should be , were bound to witness by baptism christ to be come : but this though true , and such as shewes a manif●st difference between ci●cumcision and baptism in their use ; and confirmes the necessity of faith or owning of christ by the baptized at his baptism , yet is not pertinent to the intent of master cobbet ▪ sith thereby neither is the argument from peters requiring repentance to baptism infringed , which argues that therefore covenant-interest is not sufficient title to baptism without repentance , nor is thereby any reason given of r●pentance being required by peter afore baptism : nor is there any proof in master cobbet why more should be required to baptism of the adult jewes , then of their unripe children , onely he tels of their practice in new england , that when any are received to fellowship with them , though they being as transient members by vertue of communion of churches , are admitted upon their former church-ingagement , yet desirous to be fixed members , they require testimony of their repentance of their former church-sins and personal scandals therein committed , not so of their children not sui juris , nor capable of personal satisfaction , so it was with them , acts . being to be incorporated into a purer company , exhibiting the ordinances of christ in a more perfect evangelical way . but setting aside the question , whether this course in new england be justifiable and by what rule they require more of the fixed member then of the transient , the defilement being alike in both . . it is not true that it was so with the jewes and their children as with fixed and transient members in n. e. for neither was the church of the jewes then an evangelical church less perfect then that of the apostles , but openly opposite to christ and the christian church : nor was that which those jewes perplexed did propound , that they might be of their church as a purer church , but what peter and the apostles would advise them to do to free them from the guilt of crucifying christ. nor doth peter at all as an elder assign repentance to them for admission to outward church-priviledges , but as an apostle preacheth to them repentance for remission of sins and easing their consciences , which was an act of doctrine , not of jurisdiction . . if it had been so , yet neither doth this prove that the apostle required more of the aged jewes to baptism then formerly , nor that he did it because they were to be inco●porated into a purer company exhibiting the ordinances of christ in a more perfect evangelical way , nor that he did require more of the fathers then the children to baptism ; nor is the argument infringed , that if covenant-interest intitle to baptism of it self without repentance the father to whom the promise is as well as the child , yea , in priority to the child , who derives his title from the fathers covenant-interest , then it should much more intitle the father to baptism without repentance : idem qua idem semper facit idem , so that after so many shifts , absurdities , unproved dictates , vain dreames of making the case of the jewes like persons received into fellowship in n. e. and the overweening conceit of the purity of their church , and exhibition of the ordinances of christ in a more perfect evangelical way , there is nothing yet produced to invalidate the argument from peters requiring repentance of the jewes afore baptism , against the connexion between covenant-interest and right to baptism . master cobbet goes on thus : nor must that needs follow , that because it 's said , they were added to the church , that therefore they were not of the church before , but after peter spake those words , v. . the promise is to you , &c. for this is as well spoken after that expression that they were baptized , as after that mentioned , of their receiving the word gladly , and yet will our opposites conclude , that therefore they were not of the church , nor in the covenant before they were baptized , but came into that estate by baptism . if baptism were the form of the church , or that which they so much urge wholly failed , that a person must be first discipled , and so in covenant and church-estate before he be baptized . ans. either i understand not the force of words . or else it is a cleer argument , acts . . and there were added in that day souls about three thousand , v. . and the lord added the saved daily to the church , and these were of the jewes , therefore jewes were not of the church before that day , and that addition . for what is addition to a company but a joyning or bringing one more to them then was before ? even as in arithmetick addition is putting to another member then was before reckoned . and this argument seems so plain to me , that i count the denial of it as the denial of a common notion . that which master cobbet answers is to the argument framed thus , they are not said to be added till after peters speech , v. . therefore they were not of the church before ; and i confess the argument so framed is not so cogent , sith historians do not alwaies relate things in order as they were done . yet supposing lukes relation orderly ( of which there is no cause to doubt , sith the particles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 then v. . shew it ) the argument is good , after peters words it is said , then , and that day were added , therefore they were not before of the church . nor do i know any absurdity in it to say they were added by baptism to the church , it being one means of addition to the church , and though i say not that baptism is the form of the church , but that there may be a church without baptism , nor the onely way of adding to the church , for the preaching of the word is also a means of adding to it , yet this i say , that neither is a church regular , nor the addition as it should be without baptism . and though i say a person is to be discipled afore he be baptized , yet he may be baptized afore he is in some sense in covenant and church-estate , meaning in covenant by gods promise to him , and in church-estate , that is , so as to be reckoned a member of a visible church in compleat fellowship of other ordinances with it . master cobbet proceeds thus . nor is that cogent , which is urged against the childrens right in the promise , and unto baptism , that they should be so priviledged , when they came to be effectually called , and to be turned from their sins , as if this were quoad homines , their onely rule of judging of persons visible interest in the covenant of grace , or visible right to the initiatory seal thereof : or at least the onely way of having such a visible interest in the visible churches cour● . for besides that it was not so of old , in applying of circumcision , as gods appointed seal of the parties visible covenant-estate and right : even with us also it is not the rule in foro ecclesia ; for then none are by the church to be by rule admitted to baptism , but such as are effectually called , and then john which knew , that the most of them , which he baptized , would be as chaffe in the floor , he kept not rule in baptizing of them . or if calling be taken for external inviting in the word preached ; and offer of christ , that i suppose will not be pleaded ; for then every hearer should be forthwith baptized , albeit an indian or black●more ; but calling as taken in reference to baptizing unto remission of sins , seemeth to be rather calling into visible covenant , and church-estate ; unto which some , whose was the promise intentionally , yet were afar off from that estate actually at present , but when called to it , they were then to be baptized . ans. the objection answered here by master cobbet ( if this passage here relate to my examen , as it 's likely it doth ) was thus formed , exam. pag. , , . exercit. sect . . the promise , acts . . is neither to fathers , nor their children , nor those afar off without calling , therefore nor to infants , who are not called by the lord , and this calling i conceive an effectual calling to the fellowship of his son jesus christ , as the apostle speaks , cor. . . master cobbet doting on his own frivolous exposition of the being of the promise in respect of external right and administration , propounds the objection as if the objectour agreed with him therein , and then the absurdities i confess would follow , which master cobbet drawes from the objection as thus interpreted [ the promise is in respect of external right and administration , to none but the effectually called ] that the onely rule to judg a persons visible right to baptism , and the onely way of having such a right is effectual calling . but master cobbet might have understood that i still disclaimed this , that right to baptism is from interest in gods promise or covenant , and have asserted ; that is onely from the persons own profession of christ and covenanting to be his disciple , and for the promise , acts . . i understand it of christ sent for remission of sins , and thus it is most true , that the promise is neither to father nor child uncalled ; what therefore master cobbet refutes is not owned by me , yet his refutation i count not valid . for that which he allegeth , it was not so in circumcision , therefore it must not be so in baptism , proceeds on this mistake that the rule of circumcision is a rule about baptism . and for that which he saith , that john knew that the most of them which he baptized , would be as chaffe in the floor , i conceive not true , nor doth it appear that john did admit to baptism those he knew were hypocrites and reprobates . pareus , comm. in matth. . . non ad baptismum indignos admisi● , and of all others me thinks a new england teacher should not alledge that , which , if it were true , would condemn their strictness in admission of members into their churches , excluding them whom they are not satisfied to be truly regenerate , so far as they can discern . for doubtless whom john baptized they may and ought admit to church-membership . and this plea is made by master norton , resp. ad apollon . c. . propos . . for the new england strictness that john baptist repelled hypocrites from baptism . now to the objection as i conceive it in the answer is insufficient , master cobbet denies that the words [ as many as the lord our god shall call ] do circumscribe [ to you and your children ] as well as [ all that are afar off , acts . . ] but then he would have it to be meant of calling into visible covenant , and church-estate , in which he would have infants included : but the scripture speaks of no such calling , and both that conceit , and master cobbets exposition conformable to it , have been so fully refuted before , that i shall add no more . onely whereas he saith , that if calling were taken for external inviting in the word preached , and offer of christ , then every hearer should be baptized forthwith , albeit an indian or blackamore . i conceive it will not follow , sith they that would have all outwardly called by the offer of christ baptized , it 's likely do mean it of such a calling as is with effect , so as that the person called be brought to outward profession at least of the faith of christ. master cobbet addes three considerations to prove , that infants not capable of actual repentance . were not in defect of that repentance , excluded from the promise mentioned , acts . , . which i might grant understanding it of the promise of remission of sins before god and of elect infants , and yet no proof thence for infant-baptism . but because master cobbet takes the promise to be in respect of external right and administration , and that from it there 's a title derived for infant-baptism . i shall consider what he saies . . such a supposed exclusion of their babes had been , to lay an occasion , and addition of more cumbers and trouble to the darkened disquieted spirits of his hearers , then to clear and ease them , supposing , as is undeniably evident that their wish against their poor children , pressed them sore , as well as other guilt . it was all along thitherto , a received truth , that god was a god to their seed externally , by vertue of abrahams covenant they were his adopted children , ezek. . . and the churches children , which she ba●e to the lord , v. . see deut. . . and it was evident , by gods own appointment of circumcision , to be the initiatory seal , not to a blanck , but to his covenant of being a god to them whilest babes , and before circumcised in heart , so as actually to repent , deut. . . this their babes had external right unto whilest these their parents were convinced or unwrought upon , remaining uncut off by censures from the church , as of old , ezek. . , . is mentioned of those idolaters . now if not so when their parents are wrought upon by peters sermon , as the parents were thus far losers , by christ and his gospel , and the efficacy thereof , losing that precious parental priviledge which they had before this of their childrens federal in●erest , and priviledge of abrahams covenant , so also their children are losers too , by their parents coming so far on to christ , coming now thus to be excluded their former covenant-right and neither parents nor children to have any covenant-right and priviledge in lieu hereof . how such doctrine might well stumble , and trouble such parents , let any sober and judicious mind judg ; to be sure they have a load of guilt , and given a deadly wound unto their poor babes , by that curse of theirs : now if they are as pagans , strangers from the covenant , then there is no hope , in reference to ordinary and revealed grounds and wayes of hope and life , ephes. . , , . ans , this long tale hath more of childish affection then manly reason , setting aside the new language of initiory seal set to a blanck , childrens federal interest , precious parental priviledge , cavenant right , and such like gibberish according to the paedobaptists supositions about the imagined covenant to father and child , right of infants to the first seal thereby , and this a great priviledge without which no revealed grounds ordinary of hope and life , this is the substance of the tale , that if peter had told them their infants were not to be baptized , who before were circumcised he had added more grief to the spirits of the jewes pressed with the sense of their wish against their children , matth. . . and therefore he is to be conceived , acts . . to have told them of their infants right to baptism . now surely in my apprehension if peter had told them such a tale , as master cobbet imagins he did ; even then when so great perplexity of spirit was upon them by reason of the horrid sin of crucifying christ , and their imprecation on them and their children , they being then indisposed to laughter , must in all likelyhood have been much moved either with grief , or anger against such a doctor , as would mock them with such a receipt , as was no more to their disease then the promise of a feather to weare is to revive a man almost dead with the pain of the collick . for what comfort could this be to them concerning themselves , who expected the heaviest wrath due to them for their sin , or concerning their children on whom they wished a most heavy curse , to be told of a priviledge for them and their children , which as it was to them before , was painfull in the use , so was it a heavy yoke in the obligation , to be continued in an other rite which of it self was but washing with cold water , and in the fruit of it before god yielded no benefit without faith and repentance , and in the church yielded at best but a title of church-membership , by which they had no benefit , but what they might have without it , no● would stand them in any stead for church-communion without their actual believing ? it is clear , acts . . is an encouragement to the duties , and expectation of the good mentioned , v. . now what encouragement is it to repent , to be told that the promise was already to them in external right and administration , and to their infants , though not as yet penitent or believers ? such a motive might rather have tended to keep them in impenitency being in so good case already in the estate they were in . and for baptism into the name of christ , such a motive tended rather to disswade them from it , as might fill their mindes with high conceits of their and their childrens covenant-right , even by vertue of their being in the jewish church without faith in christ , or joyning to the christian church . and for the good of remission of sins before god which they needed , what assurance could they have of it by telling them of their and their childrens having the promise already as jews , without personal faith and repentance in external right and administration before men ? as for the falsity of the speech as expounded by master cobbet , it is shewed before , what he would burden his opposites with , as if denyeng infant-baptism , they counted them as pagans , strangers from the covenant , without hope , in reference to ordinary and revealed grounds and ways of hope and life , ephes. . , . . is a meer calumny . for setting aside their talk of initiatory seal , and external covenant ( which they cannot say assure life to the infants of believers without election ) we assure as much by the covenant of grace , justification by christs bloud , and sanctification by his spirit , which is effectual calling , and they can in trueth assure no more , nor any other way , though to uphold their credit , and to win the affections of credulous parents , they befool them with idle talk of a covenant which the scripture never mentions , and of sealing that covenant by baptism , which the scripture is silent of . the texts ezek. . , . deut : . . will be examined afterwards . why he bids see deut. . . i know not . unless it be that we may discern his weakness in alledging the scriptures impertinently , sith it cannot be meant of infants to whom the revealed things do not belong , that they may heare them and do them in infancy . the second consideration is in brief this , that the apostles who as yet preached not for the abolishing of mosaical rites , but were indulgent to the jewes , acts . , , , . would not give such manifest and just offence to them as to hold forth an exclusion of their babes from right in that covenant of abraham it self , whereof circumcision was a visible seal , as the places quoted in gen. . , . and acts . . declare . to which i answer , by my exposition there is no exclusion of babes from the promise , acts . . though it be restrained to those who are effectually called , sith babes may be said to be effectually called by the spirit of god according to election : nor doth my exposition exclude the jewes infants from the covenant , gen. . . or circumcision , or in the least manner meddle with that point . nor do i think the promise , gen. . . to be the same with that , acts . . if it were , yet how it may be understood otherwise then master cobbet conceives is shewed above . the third consideration , setting aside his phraseology is this , that if peter should intend to exclude infants from baptism , it were to be cross to pauls doctrine , rom. . . who makes it christs end not to evacuate , undermine , or abolish by his coming , [ the promises ] indefinitely made to the fathers whether in , gen. . . or deut. . . or the like , or respecting parents or children , but to confirm the same , ibid. but how this consequence is made good i cannot conceive , but do deny it , and expect a proof of it ad graecas calendas . master cobbet concludes the chapter with an answer to the objection , that if this were granted of those jewish children , what is this to our childrens federal interest in the daies of the gospel ? and he answers , . that it proveth that by the apostles since christs ascension , this tenent of the children of visible members of the church are visibly interessed in the covenant of grace is of divine authority , and i● no humane invention . ans. . in the objection , the concession was that those jewish children were never before denyed to be visibly in abrahams covenant , which master cobbet alters , thus [ are visibly interessed in the covenant of grace ] now it may be granted those jewish children were visibly in abrahams covenant , and yet denyed , that they are visibly interessed in the covenant of grace , the covenants being not the same every way , and it being certain , as in the case of saul and others , a person may be visibly interessed in the covenant of abraham , and yet not in the covenant of grace . . infants visible interest in the covenant of abraham i know no otherwise , then by circumcision , and this sure the apostles taught of no other then the jewish children . . the text , acts . . speaks not of visible interest in the covenant of grace by external administration . . if it did , yet it speaks of none other children , but jewish , and so not of ours , and therefore the tenent may be an humane invention notwithstanding this text and the concession of the objectour . . saith master cobbet , these jewes are eyed by the apostles , as persons to partake of priviledges of a church of christians , as was baptism ; and therefore what extent of federal right and priviledge is granted by the apostles to them and theirs in that way is equally belonging to gentiles in a like way . ans. the jewes were not tyed by the apostles to partake of baptism without the repentance of each person to be baptized , nor is it by the apostle made a federal right and priviledge , but a duty to which the promise did encourage , nor is the promise said to be to them or any of their children , but the effectually called , so that were the conclusion granted master cobbet , yet his purpose is not gained that the gentiles infants are to be baptized . . saith he , to suppose god by apostolical ratification , to allow to children of jewish parents coming on to christ , &c. a larger priviledge then to gentile parents , as came on to christ , &c. is to make god a respector of persons . ans. . it is not yet proved that the apostle allowes to children of jewish parents the priviledge master cobbet means . . the jewes , acts . . were not considered as coming on to christ , but as guilty of crucifying him , and under horrour of conscience for it . . the priviledge of baptism or the promise in respect of external right and administration ( as master cobbets phrase is ) could not belong to the jewes at that present , & therefore the apostles speech had been false in master cobbets sense . for he cannot assert they were then come to christ , but coming on to christ , nor is it certain that many of them ever came to christ. but [ the promise is de praesenti in respect of external right and administration , which is master cobbets sense ] is false of persons which were not come to christ , except he will have the apostle assert a right of baptism to them without faith . . the jewish parents children had then a larger priviledge then the gentiles in the first offer of the gospel , as they had larger priviledges before , rom. . , , . and they shall have larger priviledges at their calling hereafter if i understand the apostle , rom. . , , , , . and herein god is not such a respector of persons as peter , acts . . denies him to be so , as not to accept a gentile who feareth him and worketh righteousness as well as a jew . acts of special grace undue to some persons , not to others , argue not unjust respect of persons in god , but acts of judgment awarding good to one that fears him and works righteousness , because of such a nation , and not to another , who doeth the same , because he is not of that nation , contrary to his declarations , promises , lawes , by which he hath bound himself ; would argue unjust prosopolepsy , his declarations , promises , and lawes being general , and so the being of that nation extirnsecal to the cause . saith he , the force of the words seem to carry it , that the same promise which was to those jewes actually in church and covenant-estate , was intentionally to these afar off , which were strangers actually from a like estate , whether those of the ten tribes , or rather those of the gentiles , and should be actually to them , when they came to be called actually into the fellowship of that covenant and church-estate . now what promise was that ? verily a promise which carried with it a partial reference unto their children : the promise is to you , and to your children : and the same is unto them afar off , whom god shall call , scil. in reference to their children also . ans. there is no colour from the words that , acts . . the promise is meant to be actually to those jewes , and intentionally to those afar off , nor doth this conceit agree with master cobbets exposition , who will have it to be de praesenti to belong to the persons recited , and consequently actually to all there named ; nor do i know how to make true sense of this his speech . for the promise is either said to be in respect of the act of the promiser , or of the thing promised . in the former sense the meaning of master cobbet should be this , that god had made the promise to the jewes already actually , but he had not made the promise to those afar off , but intended to do it afterwards . but this sense agrees not with master cobbets and other paedobaptists conceit , who would have the promise to be that to abraham , gen. . . but that promise was made almost years before , not made to those jewes then , nor to any afar off afterwards that can be shewed . in respect of the thing promised , whether it be ( as i say ) christ manifested in the flesh for the remission of sins before god , it is not true that it was actually then to the jewes mentioned , acts . . for they were not yet repenting believing persons , or it be meant of remission of sins in respect of external right and administration , it is not true that the promise was actually then to them , in external right , they had no right then to claim baptism , being not then believers , neither had they the promise in external administration de praesenti , for they were not actually baptized ( which i think is the external administration meant , i cannot imagine master cobbet would be so vain as to conceive peter told them , they were circumcised ) but peter exhorts them to be baptized , and therefore the promise was no more actually to the jewes then present , then to those afar off . nor is it true that the jewes present were then actually in church and covenant-estate , if it be meant of the christian church , and covenant of grace in christ , for they were not repenting believers ; and if it be meant of the jewish church , and covenant-estate which they had as descended from abraham by natural descent , and by reason of circumcision , so the gentiles were never ealled or to be called actually into that fellowship of that covenant , and church-estate , but rather out of it : nor if they had been called into it , had that church and covenant-estate at all conduced to their interest into the christian church and covenant of grace , but rather to the contrary . and for the promise it is true , there is a reference to their children , but not because they were believers children or their children , but by vertue of gods call , and it is true the promise is to gentiles child●en and jewes when called of god , and no otherwise , and consequently no birth-priviledge to either intitling to baptism . and thus is that magnified chapter of master cobbet abundantly answered . sect . xxiii . master sidenhams notes on acts . . in his exercitation ch . . are considered . i shall adde a consideration of what master sidenham notes on acts . . that i may at once shew the impertinency of its allegation for connexion between the covenant and baptism , and infants of believe●s covenant-interest upon that consideration ▪ i agree with him that the promise is of remission of sins and so of salvation . nor do i deny it to be suitable to what is promised , gen. . . understanding it not , as paedobaptists and among them master sidenham conceives , as a promise to each believer and his natural seed , but as a promise to abraham as the ●ather of believers , and his spiritual seed by the following of his faith of righteousness before god repeated at large , jerem. . . nor do i mistake his making it the same with the promise of christ , and the spirit , as , gal. . . is meant including justification , sanctification , and all graces . and his words i conceive very opposite to overthrow master cobbets and others conceit of external right and administration , when he saith , it would be but a poor comfort to a wounded soul for to tell him of a promise of gifts , not of spiritual grace , and the holy ghost is a better physician then to imply such a raw improper plaister to a wounded heart , which would hardly heal the skin , this promise is brought in as a cordial to keep them from fainting , and to give them spirits to believe , and lay hold on jesus christ. and truly no other promise but that of free-grace , in order to salvation , can be imagined to give them comfort in that condition . and after , and it must needs have been a mighty low , and disproportionable way of perswasion , to put them upon such high things in the former verse , and to encourage them onely by the narration of some temporary gifts in the following , when their eye and heart was set on remission of sins , and salvation by jesus christ ; and nothing but a promise holding forth these mercies could have been considerable to them . nor do i deny that the children as well as the parents are included in this promise , nor do i deny but that the children are invited to baptism by the promise as well as the parents . but i deny , . that the mention of the promise to them and their children was allusive to the expressions in the old testament , when god said to abraham i will be the god of thee and thy seed , gen. . . or that , isai . . and such like , nor hath mr. sidenham proved it , and there is this reason against it . for in those expressions the fathers are mentioned as righteous persons , and believers ▪ but here the parents could not be considered as righteous and believing persons , for they were not such , but then charged by peter , and at that time under the sense of the great sin of killing christ , and admonished to repent of it , and therefore the words have clearly this sense , the promise is to you , and your children as bad as you have been , and the mention of their children is not allusive to gods expressions in the old testament , but to their own curse on them and their children , matth. . . and so cannot note a priviledge to them and their children as persons better then others , but an assurance to them of that good which they feared their sin debarred them of , by telling them of gods inrent for good according to his promise , though they meant it for evil , as the same apostle doth , acts . , , . and joseph did , gen. . . and . . . i deny that the children are invited to baptism by the promise as giving title to baptism of it self , for the promise is urged as a motive to a duty , not as a plea whereby they might claim , nor was their interest in the promise the antecedent to baptism , but the consequent on it . for the promise whether it be of remission of sins , or of the saving gift of the holy ghost allowing master . sidenhams observation that it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is certain that peter did assure them of it not as yet already attained , but as attainable , not before , but upon their repentance and baptism , neither to them , nor to their children as their children ; but to them and their children , and all afar off as many as the lord should call . . he doth not invite them to baptism , but so as that he first puts them in minde of repentance . now if the promise had been alledged as giving title of it self to baptism , he had left out repentance : but putting it in first , he plainly shewes , that the alledging of the promise was as well to move them to repentance as to baptism , and first to repentance , then to baptism ; nor is any other course taken with the children then the parents , the promise and duty are declared in like manner to both . and therefore master sidenhams talk of peters speaking in the known dialect of the old testament , that if he had not meant upon their believing and baptism without any other consideration of gods calling or their repentance the children to be in the promise , he had deceived them , and that there was no other intent in mentioning the promise but to intimate that as the jewes and their infant males were circumcised by vertue of the promise , so it should be to them in baptism , is but vai● without proof , and without truth . but master sidenham asserts that the words [ as many as the lord shall call ] can in no sense be referred to the former part of the verse , either to parents or children ; which if true , then according to his own interpretation of the promise the apostle asserts , that the promise of remission of sins and of the spirit including justification , sanctification , and all graces , was to them and their children , whether called or no. but let 's view his reasons for this audacious assertion . for , saith he , . he changes the sense in both parts of the verse ; in the first part unto the jewes , he speaks de praesenti , of the present application of the promise ; repent you and be baptized — ; for the promise is to you and your children : even now the promise is offered to you ; and they were then under the call of god ; but when he speaks of the gentiles , because they were yet afar off , and not at all called , he speak de futuro , as many as god shall call , even of them also ; which is the first hint of the calling of the gentiles in all the acts of the apostles . ans. the apostle changeth not the tense of the same ve●b in either part of , v. . for there are but two verbs in the verse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and neither used above once , so that he might have said , he useth two verbs in two tenses , but neither change●h in one or both parts of the verse the same verb or the same tense of the same verb. but what if he had changed the tense , and had said , the promise is to you and your children whom he now calls , and the promise shall be to all that are afar off as many as god shall call even of them also , did it follow that in no sense the words ( as many as the lord shall call ) can be referred to the former part of the verse , either to parents or children ? surely if i have any understanding , the contrary followes , that if the meaning were ▪ the promise even now is offered to you , and they were then under the call of god , but not yet called , the words may be referred to the former part of the verse to parents and children , thus the promise of remission of sins is now offered to you and your children under the call of god to be attained by as many as the lord our god shall effectually call at this time , and hereafter . but how stands it with other paedobaptists applications of this seripture , as if the promise did de praesenti belong to the children in external right and administration , and a covenant-right in them , and title to the initial seal , and yet the promise onely offered to them , and they not called , but under the call of god. if the offer of the promise , and a call in fieri which is not in facto esse be sufficient to intitle men to the promise in external right , and to the initial ieal , then had those jewes which believed not , acts . . and the athenians , acts . . such right and title . master sidenham will have infants by the words [ your children ] will he say the promise was then offered to them , and they then under the call of god ? if he did , he should tell how that we might understand it . and there is need he should shew some reason and proof of that his paraphrase , which is not yet done , ere his reader ( if he be wise ) will receive it . and for what he saith that in that verse there is an exact distribution of the world into jew and gentile , the gentiles being usually those afar off , it requires better proof then this , sith neither is the term jew expressed , nor the term [ afar off ] used of the gentiles that i know but , ephes. . . where it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which may be questioned whether it be the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the text . but master sidenham addes . . how unequal would the distribution ●e of this verse , not suitable to the lawes of expression among rational men ? if as many as the lord shall call , should be a limitation to the former part of the verse , the word children , must needs be redundant and superfluous ; for jewes and gentiles comprehend all the world . now children must either be one part of the world , or comprehend under one or both names , or be a distinct world by themselves , neither jewes nor gentiles : and this must needs follow on such a reading of the words ; for the design of the apostle is to hold forth the freeness of the promise to jew and gentile , and their children , to these jewes at present , to the gentiles and their children when god shall call the parents , as he did these jewes . ans. master sidenham hath printed here such a toy as might please himself , but is fit for nothing but to be slighted . for , . he supposeth that [ you and those afar off ] is as much as jewes and gentiles , which is not proved . . he supposeth consequently [ you and those afar off ] to comprehend all the world , because jewes and gantiles comprehend all the world . but this followes not , though the term [ you ] note jewes , if it note onely some jewes , to wit , those to whom peter then spake . . that if [ as the lord shall call ] should be a limitation to the former part of the verse , the word children , must needs be redundant and superfluous , for jewes and gentiles comprehend all the world . which indeed followes on his conceit that here is an exact distribution of the world into jew and genrile . but this is manifestly false , for though [ they afar off ] should be the gentiles , yet all the gentiles are not therein comprehended , but those that are called ; and if the term [ you ] note the jewes , yet in notes not all the jewes , but such as were parents , and therefore the term [ children ] is necessary being not comprehended under the term [ you ] and it is alike necessary to express them distinctly , whether the limitation [ as many as the lord shall call ] be applyed to the former part of the verse or to the latter onely , so that i can yet see no reason of master sidenhams conceit , that such a referring of the limitation [ as many as the lord our god shall call ] to the first part of the v. as i make , would cause the distribution of this v. to be so unequal as not to be suitable to the lawes of expression among rational men . and to what he addes further i say [ children ] were one part of the world , and comprehended under jewes , but how this must needs follow on such a reading of the words as puts [ as many as the lord shall call ] to the first part of the verse any more then to the latter onely i see not ? nor if it did , do i know any absurdity in it , no nor any opposition to what he makes the apostles designes . but let 's see what he makes of all this to his purpose . he tels us , now put children by themselves a third party , and add , whom the lord shall call , and you exclude them from being etiher jewes or gentiles , and so excommunicate them from any hopes of calling , or being saved . to which i say , if i doated like master sidenham , making [ you and those afar off ] synonymous to jewes , and gentiles in general , when the terms note onely some in particular , and put [ children ] by themselves as a third party , i should exclude them from being jewes or gentiles , whether i added to the first part of the v. the words [ as many as the lord shall call ] or did otherwise . and if i made all that are called and saved to be comprehended under [ you and those afar off ] as synonymous to jewes and gentilas in general , and excluded [ children ] as neither i should excommunicate them a● he saith . but that either any such thing followes on the limiting of the former part of the v. by those words [ as many as the lord our god shall call ] or any other of my sayings , is neither proved by master sidenham nor any other , nor ever will. but master sidenham goes on : now this is , . contrary to that known rule in logick , that omnis bona distributio debet esse bimembris ; onely of two members , and those opposite one to another ; to bring in a third marres all . this then he imagines that if [ your children ] be a third party , and not either [ you or those afar off ] a logick rule would be broken . but whose logick rule is that he mentions ? i confess there have been logicians who have affected dichotonie , but when they have tyed themselves to it , they have been censured as guilty of accurate vanity by burgersdicius inst. log . l. . c. . keck . syst. log. l. . part . . c. . and others . scheibler top. c. . n. . bounds it with sundry cautions . and indeed we must cashier many received divisions if that rule hold as e. g. in morality of good into honest , pleasant and profitable , in divinity of the law into moral , ceremonial and judicial , of the divine persons into the father , son and holy ghost , of the bookes of the old testament into moses , the prophets and the psalmes and so blame christ himself . what master sidenham infers , so that it is most clear the words must be understood , as they are translated , is not denyed by me , and yet the words , [ acts . . as many as the lord our god shall call ] limit the first part of the v. nor do i deny the promise is to you jewes , and your children at present , to express the apostles meaning in the sense i have given , nor do i gainsay what he addes , and to those afar off also and their children , when god shall call them , if he mean it of the calling the chileren as well as the parents ; though withall it is to be noted , that in the text there is no mention of the children of those afar off . but what he saith further , else ( that is , if the promise be not to the children of those afar off when god shall call the parents ) calling can with no sense be applyed to any tittle of the former part of the verse , without you make it monstrous , and unlike it self , is either false or unintelligible by me . for though the promise should not be to the children of those afar off , when god called the parents , yet this is in my apprehension good sense , the promise is to you being called , and to your children being called , nor is any monstrosity or unlikeness to it self more in this sense then if the term [ called ] were applyed only to the latter part : but there would be non-sense , if the distribution were reduced to dichotomie as master sidenham would have it , and the proposition would be false , that the promise ( which master sidenham makes to be of remission of sins , christ and his spirit , justification , sanctification , and all graces ) is to them or their children without calling , or though god should not call them . there is some more of the like stuff in that which followes . . it 's against another rule about distribution which is , that partes divisionis ambulent equali passu , that the parts of a distribution should be equally set together . now here will be a mighty inequality , as to the communication of the promise ; if the words should be taken in their sense , the jewes will have a greater priviledge then the gentiles , if children be not equally added to both , the jewes had the promise made to them , and their children at present , these afar off shall onely have the promise to themselves , but not their children . ans. it is one of the vexations that befals men that write bookes that they are necessitated to answer such silly scriblings : but so we must do or else the world will be befooled with that which is most vain . the objection to which this author answers is , that the latter clause , as many as the lord shall call , is a limitation of the verse , and no more are under the promise , and so children , if god shall call them , shall also enjoy the promise ; now that which he contends for is , that [ children ] is to be added equally to both parts of the v. ( which was not in question ) but shewes not the promise to be to the children if god call them not , which is the thing in question . and as he shootes besides the mark , proving what was not to be proved , so his argument is nothing to that he takes on him to prove . he sets down a rule in logick , which i find in scheibler , ●op . c. . n. . with this explication , hoc est , sumantur ex eodem genere . but in this sense it seemes this author meant it , that the thing divided be communicated equally to the parts of the division , it is not true . for then the division of being into substance and accident , god and the creature , with many more , were not right divisions . but were his rule right , as he means it , ( as it is not ) yet it is nothing to his purpose . he would prove , if children be not equally added to both parts of the v. acts . . then the jewes will have a greater priviledge then the gentiles ( which might be granted without absurdity ) for there would be a mighty inequality , as to the communication of the promise , which is against the rule of logick he mentions , as if the promise or the communication of the promise were a whole divided into parts , and one part were the jewes and their children , and the other were the gentiles and their children , which were ridiculous ; nor do i know any other way he can understand his arguing from this logick rule , but that it will appear alike frivolous . but the reader ( i doubt ) will think i insist too much in answering such trifles . i go on therefore . . saith he , consider , how comes this word ( your children ) to be kept in , for what end and use , if it were not to shew some spiritual priviledge they have with their parents , when god calls or converts the parents ? what stands it for but a stone of offence to consciencious hearts ? ans. . he asserts in this passage that ( your children ) is kept in to shew some spiritual priviledge they have with their parents , when god calls or converts the parent ? but a little before he observed a change in the tense in both parts of the verse ; in the first part unto the jewes , he speaks de praeseuti , of the present application of the promise , and supposeth under the call of god already ; here ( your children ) is to shew a speciall priviledge , when god calls or converts the parent , which intimates that he had not then called or converted the parent . and therefore the one passage crosseth the other . . he had said before , that ( as many as the lord shall call ) can in no sense be referred to the former part of the verse either to parents or children , and yet here he refers it in a necessary sense , as he conceives , to the parent . . if the special priviledge to the children doth suppose the parents call , why not also the childrens call ? . yea the special priviledge in the text to the father and child is the promise , and that master sidenham makes to be of justification , sanctification , and all graces , and can he imagine this promise to be to a child barely on the parents call without his own personal calling by god ? i think he durst not assert it : if he did , i am sure it is false as being contrary to rom. . . and therefore of necessity to make his own exposition good , we must limit the former part of the verse , in what is said both of parent and child by the words [ as many as the lord our god shall call ] . as for his questions , why [ your children ] is in the verse , it hath been answered , because of their imprecation , matth. . . to which he replies thus : to see the sad shift of errour is wonderful : can any man imagine , that the parents could doubt more , or so much of their childrens being accepted , and saved , when god should call them who were innocent , and only under the sudden rash curse of their parents , when they saw that the promise was to themselves , who were the actual murtherers of the lord jesus . answ. to me who am so well acquainted with the shifts of paedobaptists , it is not wonderful to see the shifts of errour . this very reply what is it but a vain shift ? for he supposeth the children were innocent , which he cannot prove , and that the curse was sudden and rash , which seems rather to have been deliberate , and that they saw the promise was to themselves , and christ offered pardon to themselves , when there was nothing but horrour on their consciences for crucifying christ till after peters speech to them , and that if the parents were not imagined to doubt more or so much of their childrens being accepted and saved as themselves , then there was no reason to insert [ your children ] by occasion of the imprecation , matth. . . whereas if they doubted any whit , yea if for the present they did not think on that curse , yet might afterwards as there was cause they should , there was reason enough for peter to insert those words whether they tended to take away a present , or possible fear in them concerning their children . but there is more of his trifling yet behind . . saith he , such a consideration would rather sadden them then refresh them , to mention the calling of their children : for they might more doubt of that , then of any thing , whether god would call them or no , and be as far to seek as ever they were , that they would have but cold comfort upon this account ; this was enough to break their hearts if that were in their eye . answ. the phrase [ and be as far to seek as ever they were ] intimates the jews had attained some comfort before this speech of peter ( which is manifestly false from the text ) and that telling them that the promise was to their children if called by god would rather sadden them then refresh them , it was cold comfort , enough to break their hearts if that were in their eye : which is in effect all one as if a man should say , when a man is in a swoon hot water will rather sadden him then refresh him , or when a man is sad , it is cold comfort enough to break his heart to give him a cup of sack. but mr. sidenham will not be thought sine ratione delirare . for , saith he , they might doubt more of that , then of any thing , whether god would call them or no. what ? was it likely they should doubt more of their childrens calling and pardon , if they were called , then of their own pardon , who were then under horrour of soul for their own grand crime of killing christ ? or if they did thus doubt , would it break their heart to be told that there was a possibility and hope that the promise was to their children , who might be called ? i have heard that if it were not for hope the heart would break : but i never heard that the telling of a person of a thing of which there was hope , though he might doubt of it , would break his heart . but master sidenham addes . the old way of conveying the promise is cut off , no promise but to called ones : our poor children are uncalled , and god knows whether ever they may be called of god : thus might they reason . ans. it s true , they might thus reason : but that they did , or by peters words , as expounded by me , were likely to reason thus , is against reason to imagine . the old way of conveying the promise i imagine he means the giving the initial seal to their infants , that is , circumcision . now will any sober man think that in that perplexity they were in through conscience of their guilt , and danger of wrath impending on their children by reason of their impious curse , when peter tells them to stay them from despair , that yet in christ sent the promise was fulfilled for remission of sins to them and their children , if each of them were called of god , that is , did repent and believe , that they would repel this comfort by questioning the losse of circumcision , and bemoaning the want of it to their infants ? i know the jews were zealous after for circumcision and the law , even those who became christians , yet sure in that perplexity there was not the least thought of such a poor priviledg as an initial seal , but of the freedome of themselves and children from their guilt and curse . but i would know where this doctrine is , that circumcision conveys the promises , or is the old way of conveying them , and what scripture saith the promise ( of remission of sins here meant , as master sidenham himself expounds it ) is to any but called ones . paul saith , rom. . . whom he hath called , them he hath justified . hos & non alios , saith augustine , and orthodox protestants , as from the text may be evinced , sith all these agree to the same persons to be predestinate , called , justified , glorified . is this such doctrine as were enough to break their hearts ? but let 's hear him out . but when he includes them in the same promise with parents , and exhorts the parents to repent upon this ground , that the promise is to them and their children ; this savours like a gospel comforting-exhortation , and could not be but of great efficacy upon their spirits . answ. me thinks it should be comfortable to them , that the promise was to them and their children upon condition of calling , that is , sanctification , repentance , believing : it is antinomian doctrine , not gospel , to say , justification is to a person uncalled , that afore he believes he is justified actually before god , even while he lives in the height of sin . it is true the promises of the land of canaan and other benefits were to abrahams natural seed : but the gospel-promises of remission of sins and everlasting life in christ , were never to abrahams or any believing parents natural seed as such , but only to abrahams spiritual seed elect and true believers . master sidenham addes . . what strange mysterious tautologies would be in this one verse ? if that last sentence should refer to all the former expressions , we must read it thus to make out their sense . the promise is to you parents of the jews , when god shall call you , ( and they were then under call ) and to your grown children , when god shall call them ; and to all which are afar off , when god shall call them : can any man with his understanding about him think the holy ghost should faulter so much in common expression of his minde , when there was no need of adding of calling to any part , but to those that are afar off , who never were yet under gods gospel call ? answ. there 's neither tautology , nor mystery in limiting the promise to the called of the jew parents and children , nor doth any thing make it seem strange , but ignorance . tautology is not , sith the propositions are three distinct ones in words and sense , it is not the same to say , the promise is to you called , the promise is to your children called , the promise is to all that are afar off called ▪ you , your children , all that are afar off being different tearms . mystery is no more , if it be added to the former part of the verse then to the latter . the calling in the latter part of the verse can be understood of no other than effectual calling , whether inward onely , or both inward , and outward , for to none other of the gentiles is the promise of remission of sins . and for the same reason the limitation is necessary to be added to the former part of the verse ; nor can any good reason be given why the promise should be to the jews and their children without calling by god , and not to those afar off without it ; the jews were then under call , but were not then called , nor doth mr. sidenham say they were , and therefore peter might aptly enough say to them , the promise is to ●s many of you as the lord our god shall call . the manner of expression is usual to put after a distribution of persons the limitation in common . there is the like , acts . , where as many as have spoken limits the prophets from samuel , and those that follow after . had mr. sidenham understanding in him of these things , he had not charged my exposition with making the holy ghost faulter in common expression of his mind . such censures ill become such a smattering scribler . but who so bold as blinde bayard ? it follows lastly , saith he , the word , children , may and must he understood of little ones , infants , not of adult and grown persons , for these reasons . answ. boldly said like a young hotspur . belike then when persons are ten , twelve , or more years old , they cease to be their parents children and seed . but i am willing to hear reason : . saith he , the word here ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) properly signifies an off-spring , any thing brought forth , though it be but of a day , of a moment old : thus when a woman is said to be in pain , and to bring forth , this word is used , john . . luke . . matth. . . luke . . answ. how heedlesly did this authour scribble when he said , this word ( which can be no other then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) is used , john . . luke . . matth. , . luke . . when it is used in none of those places , though the verb whence it comes is used in them . but were it used there , yet the reason is frivolous : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies a thing brought forth , ergo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 children , acts . . may not , must not be understood of adult and grown persons . he might as well have said , it must be understood but of those that are in this moment brought forth , not of an infant of a day old , and that the person brought forth is only the mothers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or child , because she only brought him forth , not the father . i did think till i met with this new master , that the holy ghost spake properly when he called persons grown to ripe age their fathers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or children , ephes. . . col. . . &c. . saith he , it s an indefinite word , and therefore may not be restrained to grown children , except god had exprest it in a peculiar phrase . answ. mr. sidenham alters the conclusion he undertook to prove , and concludes that which he findes not denied : his reason is as well against his own conclusion : it s an indefinite word , and therefore may not be restrained to infant-children except god had exprest it in a peculiar phrase . and indeed the reason is good only thus . it s an indefinite word , therefore it s to be restrained as the subject matter directs . but mr. sidenham shifts as it may serve his turn . his conclusion set down at first excluded adult children , because he knew the promise had not then been to them without calling , and so his project of drawing thence a priviledge for infants intituling them to baptisme had failed , but here his proof coming short he alters the conclusion into that which might be granted him without detriment to the cause . . saith he , it must needs be especially meant of little ones , because they are distinguished from themselves , who were men of years . now when we distinguish between men and children , we suppose the one adult , the other under age , and not grown up ; and it is contrary to all ways of expression to think otherwise . answ. belike then we must think that where it is said , matth. . . the fathers shall deliver the children to death , and the children shall rise up against the parents , and luke . . to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children , it must be especially meant of little ones , because they are distinguished from themselves who were men of years , and to think otherwise if the dr. of new-castle say true , is contrary to all ways of expression , which you may imagine he knew . . saith he , it cannot be rationally conjectured otherwise , because the apostle doth join them with their parents in the same promise , and not leave them to stand by themselves , as grown persons must . answ. belike then if any understand the promises to abraham , and his seed , to david and his seed of any other then infants it is not rationally conjectured . i have done with this writer about this text , of which he vainly talks , as he doth in the rest ; so that all things weighed , this text of scripture if there were no more , holds forth ( not to be seen ) the sameness of the promise to believers of the gospel , both jew and gentile and their children , as ever it was to abraham and his natural seed . sect . xxv . mr. marshal's reply to my examen about his first conclusion is reviewed , and the covenant gen. . still maintained to be mixt , and that gentile self justiciaries though reputed christians are not termed abraham's seed , nor gal. . . proves it , and that the distinction of outward and inward covenant is not right . i now reassume the review of mr. ms. reply to my examen of his sermon ; next , saith he , come we to examine the truth of the antecedent , which i manifested in those five conclusions opened in my sermon . but i supposed he had intended to prove by his five conclusions not onely his antecedent , but also his consequence . if i apprehend him rightly , there are none of his five conclusions but the two first that are for proving of the antecedent . but let 's view what he writes . the first whereof is this , that the covenant of grace for substance hath always been one and the same both to jews and gentiles . the first conclusion you grant , and therefore there were no need to have stayed the reader any further about it , were it not that some of your exceptions do almost recall your grant . if it be in substance the same , though you should reckon up a thousand accidental and local differences , it were nothing to the purpose . answer . it is true , i granted this conclusion understanding it according to the explication in his sermon , pag. , . in these words , that the new and living way to life was first revealed to adam immediately after his fall , and that blessed promise concerning the seed of the woman often renewed , and the patriarchs faith therein , and salvation thereby plentifully recorded in scripture : but the first time that ever it was revealed under the express name of a league or covenant was with abraham ; who because he was the first explicite covenanter is called the father of the faithfull ; and ever since clearly hath all the world been divided into two distinct bodies and families , the one called the kingdom , city , houshold of god , to which all who own the way of life were to joyn themselves ; and th●se were called the children of god , the sons of abraham , the children of the kingdom ; all the rest of the world , the kingdom of the devil , the seed of the serpent , strangers from the covenant of grace , without god in the world , &c. the substance of this covenant of grace on gods part was to be abraham's god , and the god of his seed , to be an all-sufficient portion , an all-sufficient reward for him , to give jesus christ to him , and righteousness with him both of justification , and sanctification and everlasting life , gen. . , &c. gal. . . rom. . . john . . on abraham's part the substance of the covenant was to believe the promised messiah , to walk before god with a perfect heart , to serve god according to his revealed will , to instruct his family , &c. gal. . . gen. . . & . . gal. . , . in which passage i did conceive that mr. m. meant by the substance of the covenant of grace the promise as it is purely evangelical , which i conceived to be the same with the new covenant mentioned heb. . , ▪ , . & . , . and this i was sure was not made with all abrahams natural posterity , much less with any believing gentiles natural posterity as such , but onely so many of either as are elect and believe , as rom. . , , . gal. . . is determined , and so none of a believing gentiles children are in this covenant , but they that are believers , or elected to faith in christ. but then this would not serve mr. ms. turn . and therefore notwithstanding those words in his sermon , yet in his defence pag. . he saith , the covenant of grace contains not onely saving grace , but the administration of it also in outward ordinances and church-privileges : but in what sense he means it contains them he declares not . that which is contained in a covenant is either the promise or the condition . the seal , writing , writer , pen , and such like adjuncts are never called the covenant , nor contained in it , though they be instrumental to hold forth the covenant . now where any promise is of outward ordinances and church-privileges , or how they should be a condition of the promises i understand not . he distinguisheth pag . of the covenant of grace thus , the covenant of grace is sometimes taken strictly , sometimes largely : as it is considered strictly , it is a covenant in which the spiritual benefits of justifi-fication , regeneration , perseverance , and glorification are freely promised in christ. secondly , as the covenant of grace is taken largely , it comprehends all evangelical administrations , which do wholly depend upon the free and gracious appointment of god , and this administration is fulfilled according to the counsel of gods will ; sometimes it was administred by his appointment in types , shadows , and other legal ordinances ; this covenant of administration god said zachary . . he did break with the people of the jews , and at the death of christ he did wholly evacuate and abolish , and in stead thereof brought in the administration we live under , where also he rejected the jews , or broke them off from being his people in covenant , and called the gentiles and graffed them in ramorum defractorum locum , into the place of the branch , and broken off as your self , pag. . do with beza rightly express it . but herein mr. m. confounds what in his sermon he distinguished the covenant of grace and the administration of it . he saith , the covenant of grace largely taken comprehends all evangelical administrations ; and saith , this administration is fulfilled . by the evangelical administrations he means the old legal ordinances afore christs death , and the administration we live under which is baptism and the lords supper , pag. . he saith , our divines own the outward administration of the covenant under the notion of foedus externum , the outward covenant . now if there be sense in these passages , i must needs charge my self with dulness , who cannot discern it . is it sense to call that a covenant without a trope , which is neither a promise nor a condition of a covenant ? to say that the covenant contains or comprehends evangelical administrations , and yet to call it the administration it self ? to say , this administration was administred , and not something by the administration administred ? but let us considee what others make of this distinction of covenant strictly and largely taken , or which is all one , the inward and outward covenant . i have met with none that speaks more distinctly than mr. anthony burges in his book entituled spiritual refining , sect. . serm. . pag. . who was one of the assembly . the external covenant is that whereby in an outward visible manner god doth own a people , add they externally profess their owning of him ; but yet in their hearts and souls they do not stedfastly cleave unto god , and faithfully keep this covenant in the conditions thereof . the internal or inward covenant is that whereby god doth in a spiritual powerfull manner take a people to him working in their hearts all those gifts and graces promised in the covenant as regeneration , remission of sins , adoption , and the like . and in this sense onely the truly godly are in the covenant , and they are onely gods people , and he their god. this distinction of a covenant into outward and inward is not a distinction of a genus into its species , so much as a distinction of a thing into the several administrations and dispensations of it . in this passage there is want of clearness as well as in m. marshals . he tels us negatively , that it is not a distinction of a genus into its species , yet with some mincing of the matter ( so much ) as if it might be the distinction of a genus into its species , though not so much , which is an expression of a man who would say somewhat but cannot well tell what to say . but if it be not a distinction of a genus into its species , what distinction is it ? is any man the wiser for a meer negative ? it is , saith he , a distinction of a thing into the several administrations and dispensations of it . but this tells us not what sort of distinction this is , whether nominis of the word or rei of the thing . if he had meant to be a distinction of the word he should have shewed where the word is so taken , if of the thing , what kinde of division or distribution it is . to me it seems against all rules of logick to divide thus . a covenant is either the outward or the inward administration and dispensation of it or the inward , which without trope of speech ( which should be absent from men that should rationally explain things ) is non-sense , affirming one covenant to be one administration and another another , whereas the covenant is one thing and the administration another thing . but his meaning is this , one covenant is outward being outwardly administred , or administring outward things , another inward administring inwardly or inward things . but neither is this right sith the covenant doth not administer but the covenanter , nor doth he do it by the covenant but by some other act according to the covenant , the covenant is onely an ag●eement and promise to do it , the administring is the keeping of the covenant , not the covenant it self . but let that be yielded that the covenant doth administer , yet the description of the external covenant as made by mr. burges doth not include administration . for god may in an outward visible manner own a people , and they externally profess their owning of him , and yet neither administer one to another any thing promised , or if the owning be administration , the people administer to god as well as god administers to them . besides his description makes an external profession of owning god requisite to the external covenant . if that be right , no infant is in the external covenant till it profess owning god , and in what outward visible manner god doth own infants except by baptizing them ( which god doth not but the minister , nor ever commanded or declared his approbation of i● ) i know not , and then the outward covenant is nothing else but baptizing , and an infants being in covenant is his being baptized or to be baptized , and the argument from the covenant comes to this ridiculous tautology , all infants of believers are in the outward covenant ( for they dare not say they are all in the inward ) that is , they are in the outward administration , which is no other than baptism , and so the antecedent is equipollent to this , they are or are to be baptized ; and the conclusion is , ergo , they are to be baptized . but mr. marshal it seems conceives the outward covenant , as he describes it , meant zach. . . where the prophet saith , and i took my staff even beauty , and cut it asunder , that i might break my covenant which i had made with all the people . and he interprets it thus , that at the death of christ god brake his covenant with the jews , wholly evacuating and abolishing the legal ordinances , and bringing in the administration we live under . but if this be the sense , then this prophesie doth not foretell any thing penal to the jews ; for the abolishing of legal ordinances was a mercy to them , they being a yoke intolerable , acts . . whereas the text speaks of it as an evil that should befall them . piscator in his analysis , eventus fuit desertio judaeorum , v. , , , & . diodati and after him the new annotations in zech. . . my covenant ] the peace which i had granted to my church , that she should not be assaulted no more , nor be molested by any strange nation , which was verified from the maccabees time , untill a little before the coming of christ. grot. annot. in locum . abstuli protectionem illam specialem . irritum facere foedus suum deus dicitur , cum ruptis a populo foederis conditionibus , ipse quoque a sua par●e promissa non implet . mr. ms. conceit is , as if by the covenant were meant legal ordinances , and so the breaking off is meant either de jure onely , and then it is not a prophesie of what should happen ; or else de facto , in the event , but then it is not true ; for the jews retained the legal ordinances of the covenant he made with them , and do still at this day even circumcision , and as many other of the legal rites as they can in their present dispersion . it is true , god brake o● the jews from being his people in covenant , and called the gentiles and graffed them in ramorum defractorum locum , and how this is to be understood i have shewed before at large in the first part of this review . but without a trope to call outward ordinances gods covenant is without example of scripture ( the covenants rom. . . say beza , piscator , new annot. &c. are the tables of the covenant ) and can hardly be acquitted from non-sense . onely perhaps it seems mr. m. for a shift , as v. g. pag. . he saith , god makes good his promise sealed in baptism in which he engageth himself to be the god of believing christians and their seed ; which in his sermon pag. . he makes the promise of saving grace , yet when it is proved that cannot be true of gentile believers and their children he runs to this vain shift , that the outward covenant belongs to them ( which is nothing to the promise gen. . . in which outward administrations are not promised ) though not the inward . nor is it mr. ms. manner alone but the common course of paedobaptists in their writings to play fast and loose with the ambiguity of the term covenant and covenant of grace , as hath been formerly shewed , and may appear more in that which follows . but to keep to mr. m. he tells me , if the covenant of grace be in substance the same , though you should reckon up a thousand accidental and local differences it were nothing to the purpose . to which i reply ; though i grant the covenant of grace be always the same in substance , meaning thereby that the elect are saved in all ages by the same promises of evangelical grace , that is righteousness , regeneration , adoption in christ , and the promise gen. . . hath an evangelical sense , which is this , that god will be a god to abraham and his spiritual seed by election and faith , and am unjustly charged of spoiling all infants of all interest in the covenant of grace , and confining the jews promises to earthly and temporal blessings , of which i have acqui●ted my self in my letter to mr. baily , sect. . . yet i never granted that the covenant with abraham did contain no other than evangelical promises of grace in christ , nor that these very promises gen. , , , , . were all evangelical promises , nor any of them in that sense , which is obvious to the understanding , according to common rules of grammar , but onely according to the apostles exposition , who never so expounded the promise , gen. . . as if it were made to any mans seed but abrahams , not to every believing gentile and his natural seed . and certainly this difference between the covenant gen. . and the covenant of grace will be much to the purpose to shew the covenant , gen. not to be to a believing christian and his seed ; and that though circumcision of male infants should have its reason barely from the interest of the circumcised in that covenant ; yet such a covenant-interest not belonging to our children who are of the gentiles cannot be a reason to entitle them to baptism though it should be granted ( which is not ) that our baptism succeeds their circumcision , and seals the covenant of grace as theirs did that made with abraham . this mixture of the covenant , and the inference thence , that circumcision did not belong to all believers and their children , but as in abrahams family is observed by mr. allen and mr. sheppard in their defence of the answer to the nine positions , chap. . and because their words are apposite to my purpose , though otherwise applied by them , i shall recite them . now that we hold the right proportion in the persons may appear , first , in that ( as was granted ) circumcision sealed the entrance into the covenant , but this covenant was not simply , and onely the covenant of grace ; but that whole covenant that was made with abraham , whereby on gods part they were assured of many special blessings ( whereof lot and others not in this covenant with abraham were not capable ) and whereby abraham and his seed , and family were bound for their part to be a people to god , and to observe this sign of the covenant , which others in the covenant of grace were not bound to . secondly , ( as is granted ) it was abraham and his houshold and the seed of believing jews that were to be circumcised , and therefore not visible believers , ( as such ) for then lot had been included ; so by right proportion not all visible believers as such , but such as with abraham and his family are in visible covenant to be the people of god , according to the institution of churches when and to which the seal of baptism is given ; and therefore as all family-churches but abrahams being in a new form of a church were excluded , so much more such a● are in no visible constituted church at all . in which it is expresly yielded , that the covenant with abraham was mixt in my sense , that circumcision did not belong to all visibly in the covenant of grace , that it belonged peculiarly to the church in abrahams family , that baptism follows the christian church constitution ( which sure is much different from the jewish ) and therefore not the covenant made with abraham . but mr. m. seems to be sensible of this , and endeavours to p●event it in that which follows . but , saith he , the first doth almost recall it , wherein you charge me to carry the narration of the covenant made with abraham , gen. . as if it did onely contain the covenant of grace in christ ; whereas it is apparent ( say you ) out of the text , that the covenant was a mixt covenant consisting of temporal benefits , the multiplying of abrahams seed , possession of canaan , the birth of isaac , besides the spiritual blessings . to which i reply , i meant so indeed , and so i plainly expressed my self , that all the difference betwixt the covenant then made with abraham , and the covenant made with us , lies onely in the manner of administration of the covenant ; and not in the covenant it self . the covenant it self in the substance of it holds out the same mercies both spiritual and temporal to them and to us . answer . by mixt covenant i mean a covenant consisting of some temporal blessings proper onely to abrahams natural posterity and some spiritual blessings common with him to all believers whether jews or gentiles . and i say , those promises of temporal blessings were of the substance of the covenant made with abraham , that they cannot in any fit sense be called the manner of the administration of the covenant , that the covenant it self in the substance doth not hold out the same mercies both spiritual and temporal to them , and to us . and all these things i thus prove . . those promises were of the substance of the covenant , which are in scripture called the covenant it self , without mention of the spiritual promises ; but this is true of the promise of the land of canaan , &c. psalm . , , , . nehem. . . gen. . . & . , , , . chron. . , , , , &c. in which places the text expresly saith , god made a covenant with abraham ; and then recites the covenant , that it was to give the land of the canaanites , &c. which were temporal mercies not now promised or performed to us . ergo , to deny those promises to be of the substance of the covenant , and to call them administrations , which the scripture calls the covenant it self so often , if it be not to thwart the scripture , sure it is unwarrantably to alter its expressions : god himself so expresly calling the giving of canaan his covenant , exod. . . . refutes this conceit . . those promises are of the substance of the covenant made with abraham , which are integral parts of the covenant . but those promises of temporal blessings are integral parts of the covenant made with abraham . ergo , the major is in it self manifest , for the covenant is nothing but a promise or an aggregate of promises ; and so if a covenant have any substance in it , it must be the integral parts . the minor is apparant from the very words , gen. . , &c. where god having in general terms told abraham , my covenant is with thee , he expresseth to the . verse , wherein his covenant was with him , and that is set down in those peculiar blessings to abrahams natural posterity , verse . . . the promise of canaan can be called no other way the administration of the covenant of grace than in that in the hidden sense under that promise spiritual good was intended to be shadowed . but this very thing shews that the promise of an earthly inheritance was in the first place thereby intended to abrahams natural posterity , and the other onely as an additament or appendix to the promise in its first meaning . now then if the promise of canaan in the first sense be not of the substance of the covenant , neither is the promise onely implied mysteriously in the more hidden sense , which is but an appendix to it , of the substance of the covenant . . the covenant made with abraham , holds not out the same mercies both spiritual and temporal to abrahams natural posterity and to us . ergo , there is more difference than in the administration . the antecedent is apparant ; for the promise of the land of canaan , the birth of isaac , christ to come of him according to the flesh , &c. are not made to us . ergo , but mr. m. thinks to prevent this by telling us , godliness having all the promises both of this life and that which is to come ; and that they and we have our right to all these promises upon the self same condition . answer . thess things are manifestly false ; for though godliness have the promise of this life and that which is to come , tim. . . yet the promises , levit. . , &c. are not made to every godly man , that he shall ly down and none shall make him afraid , that he shall chase his enemies , &c. but rather assurance is given that he shall be persecuted , tim. . . mark . , . nor have they promises upon the same condition ; for exod. . . it is promised , that none should desire the israelites land while they did appear thrice in the year before the lord , but to us there is not that promise nor upon that condition . but , saith he ▪ earthly things indeed were to them promised more distinctly and fully , heavenly things more generally and sparingly than they are now to us ; and on the contrary , spiritual things are more fully and clearly promised to us than to them ; and earthly promises more generally and sparingly . answ. this is not all the difference ; for i have shewed that to us an earthly rest is not promised at all , but the contrary assured to us , to wit , suffering persecution . mr. m. adds , and that these temporal benefits which you mention , viz. multiplying of abrahams seed , the bitth of isaac , and possession of canaan , were all of them administrations of the covenant of grace , they were figures , signs , and types of spiritual things to be enjoyed both by them and us . these things i not onely asserted , ●ut proved in my sermon . if you mean no more than this , that all these temporal blessings were promised and given as flowing from the promise of christ , and were subservient to it , or were types and shadows of it , you mean no more than what we all grant , who yet deny any more mixture in the covenant made with abraham for the substance of it , than there is in that made with us ; and that the difference lies onely in the manner of administration . answer . i deny not but that the possession of canaan , birth of isaac . multiplying abrahams seed were figures , signs , and types of spiritual things to be enjoyed by elect ▪ jews and gentiles according to the mystical hidden●sense of the words ; nor do i deny that they were subservient to the promise of christ , whether it be to be said they flowed from the promise of christ , or tended to the fore-signifying of christ to come , the grace of the gospel , and the heavenly inheritance and rest is a doubt . surely they flowed from gods special love to israel above any other people , deut. . , , . and i grant that circumcision ratified spiritual blessings chiefly , that is as the chief thing promised ; yet in the sense in which i think gameron meant it , thesi . de triplici foedere primarily , that is according to the first and manifest sense of the words it sealed earthly promises peculiar to abrahams natural posterity , and that ciacumcision of infants was specially for that reason , to wit , the peculiar promises to abrahams natural posterity ; nor do i see cause to mislike grotius his speech annot. in luc. . . infantium autem circumcisio ostendebat foedus esse gentilium . and this mixture of the covenant with abraham , to wit , that it contained not onely promises common to all believers , but also promises so peculiar to abrahams natural posterity , that all of them were not according to the law to be made good to any gentile though a proselyte circumcised , namely , the inheritance of the land of canaan , of which none but the natural progeny of israel were to be inheritours , is so manifest , that the denial of it i can hardly impute to any thing but dulness or meer pertinacy . yet why these promises so peculiar to them should be denied to be of the substance of the covenant made with abraham , i see no reason they being integral parts . christ it is true is the substance of the things promised as they were types ; yet the things promised in respect of their natural being had a substance besides , and in relation to the covenant were as much the substance or substantial parts of it as the spiritual promises ; yea , sith those spiritual promises ( if i may so speak ) did subsist in the expressions of temporal blessings , it follows in my apprehension , that if the promises of the spiritual blessings were of the substance of the covenant , then surely the promises of temporal blessings , which those very promises did express , and under the shadow of which they were made should be much more of the substance of the covenant . nor do i conceive any grosness in it to imagine of god , that he should in a covenant of grace founded in christ intend in the seal of it to ratifie temporal blessings , when he intended to assure spiritual blessings under the covert of words in the first sense importing onely temporal . as for the terming of the administration of the covenant of grace it is neither according to scripture , nor is it very handsom sense , specially according to mr. ms. doctrine , who calls circumcision the old administration of the covenant , and if it were an administration of the promises , which were administrations of the covenant of grace , then circumcision was an administration of an administration . but mr m. speaks to me thus . i desire to know of you what scripture ever made circumcision a seal of canaan ; we have express scripture that it sealed the righteousness of faith whereby he was justified , but i no where reade that it ●ealed the land of canaan . answer . to gratifie him i tell him , that i read circumcision called a token of the covenant , gen. . . which covenant was the covenant mentioned before in that chapter , and in that v. . the promise of the land of canaan is made , and acts . . stephen calls it the covenant of circumcision , which he shews not how it was otherwise fulfilled in that speech but by bringing them out of egypt , and placing them in canaan , in which he fulfilled his promise to abraham , vers . , , . it is true , the apostle calls abrahams circumcision a seal of the righteousness of faith which he had yet being uncircumcised , rom . . but i finde not this said of any ones circumcision but abrahams : surely it cannot be said truly of any ones circumcision but a believers . as for what he saith , that we have now carnal promises , and therefore our covenant may be as well mixt as that with abraham . i answer it is true , we have promise of the life that now is and that which is to come ; and so our covenant is in a sort mixt of spiritual and temporal promises : but these promises are common to all godly persons both jews and gentiles , not proper onely to abrahams natural posterity inheriting , in which sense i called it a mixt covenant , exercit. pag. . sect. . i grant , we have outward privileges and ordinances , as baptism and the lords supper , and that many now are members of the visible church , and partake of them who are not elect nor true believers . but none but elect persons have the promises of the new covenant made to them ; none but an elect person hath the promise , that god will write his laws in his heart , be his god , &c. and therefore none but such in truth are in the covenant of grace , though others may be in shew in it and accounted so by us . mr. josiah church in his book forenamed pag. . interposeth thus , . spiritual and temporal promises may be said to make a mixt covenant , but not a mixt evangelical covenant ; for a mixt gospel covenant is a covenant partly of works , and partly of grace , and the covenant of which circumcision was the initial sacrament was not mixed after that manner ; for the law was not given untill four hun●red and thirty years after i● , and then it was not mixed with it , but onely annexed to it , gal. . . answer . mr. church his confession , that spiritual and temporal promises may be said to make a mixt covenant , is as much as i need to justifie my speech exercit. pag . who did not call the covenant made with abraham mixt in any other sense . but , saith he , ● ▪ the difference was onely in the dispensation , and not in the substance of the covenant : the covenant of which circumcision was the initial sacrament was as p●rely evangelical as this , whereof baptism is the initial sacrament : for the gospel is said to be preached unto them as well as to us , and the temporal promises were evangelical and belonged to believers , as such ; for because of unbelief many obtained them not , heb. . . also there are temporal promises in this dispensation , and the people of god have christ and all other things by the same charter , matth. . . & . . rom. . . ezek. . , . answer . if there were difference in the promises , there was difference in the substance of the covenant made with abraham and ours . it is proved from gal. . . that the covenant made with abraham was evangelical , but not purely evangelical . it is not true , that the temporal promises gen. . , , , , . belonged to believers as such . for though many through unbelief entered not into c●naan , heb. . . yet neither all nor onely believers entered in . the gospel was preached to them as well as to us , heb. . . but not either by so purely evangelical a covenant , nor in so perspicuous a way . we have temporal promises now , but not the same , nor by the same charter . as for what he adds , that the promises sealed in the former dispensation were principally spiritual . i grant it , but deny it any absurdity , to say , that no promise was sealed to many circumcised infants , that their souls were not profited , nor any benefit to them by circumcision , though there was profit by it attainable and attained by many ; more than which to the present purpose is not gathered from rom . , . i return to mr. m. i take his grants pag. . that circumcision was comprehended in his , &c. as belonging to the manner of administration af the covenant together with sacrifice● , and that the covenant of grace was administred by sacrifices and other types before circumcision was instituted ; and so blot out my second exception against his first conclusion ▪ onely it is to be observed that pag. . he doth cross himself . for whereas here he grants it to belong to the manner of administration , not to the substance of the covenant , there he will have it to belong to the substance of the covenant not as a part of it , but as a means of applying it . and this is in effect all one as in his language to say , it belongs not to the substance of the covenant , for of it onely are the parts , but to the administration . for how doth it administer it but as a means of applying it ? but my third exception requires more reviewing . mr. m. in his sermon pag. . had mentioned besides christ and true believers a third sort of abrahams seed not born jews , but made proselytes , who were abrahams seed by profession who sought justification by the works of the law did not submit themselves to the righteousness of god ; and alleged ●al . . for it . against this i excepted . that i thought he could not shew where in scripture such are called abrahams seed . to this he replies , . that he named not proselytes to add any strength to the argument , it had been enough for his purpose to have said , some in the church of the jews were visible members , yet not inwardly godly , and these were called abraham's seed as well as others . answ. i should have yielded to call such , if they were jews by birth or nature , abrahams seed ; but not so of any proselyte , and so mr. m. had not his purpose , of applying the term [ abrahams seed ] to gentiles who were believers onely in profession , much less to gentiles who did not so much as profess faith in christ , but sought righteousness by the works of the law. . he saith , he never expected to have met with a quarrel for calling them , who joyned to the church by that cowmon name whereby the church-members were called , viz. the seed of abraham or the children of israel . answer . there was no quarrel in my words : but if mr. m. did not expect that , his sayings in that sermon would be sifted to the bran ; it was his oversight . they that doubted of the divine warrant of paedobaptism had very great cause to discuss that sermon being preached and printed at that time by such a man , and taken to be the sense of the assembly of divines then ●itting at westminster . he says , the seed of abraham or the children of israel were the common name by which church-members joyned to the church of israel were called : but he proves it not , and till he do prove it , i reject it . . saith he , and could no place of scripture be produced where proselytes are expresly called by this name , the matter were no● tanti . answer . it would follow then that the promise gen. . . of being god to abraham 's seed is not meant of gentile proselytes , who were onely by profession gods people , not in reality ; much less of their natural seed , and this would make most of the infants baptized unbaptizable by paedobaptists own p●inciples ; for sure the do not take the natural infant children of them that are not abrahams seed to be in the covenant , gen. . . and therefore must confess them unbaptized . . saith he , but if it were a thing of any m●men● , it would be no hard matter to produce evidence sufficient to prove that proselytes were called israelites and the seed of abraham , as acts . . & . compared acts . . compared with v. . but i forbear . ans. of what moment it is , hath been said . i think it would be a very hard matter out of those texts to prove any proselytes , much less such as were onely visible church-members of the jews , seeking justification by works , not submitting to gods righteousness , abrahams seed . in the former of the texts is not the term abrahams seed , which was the term in question , nor do the verses compared prove that the proselytes mentioned v. . are called v. . men of israel , any more than men of judea and dwellers at jerusalem , v. . nor doth it appear they were called men of israel , v. . in any other sense than as israelite by generation . the later text mentions the children of the stock of abraham , v. . but so called by natural generation opposite to the gentiles , as v. . shews , not proselytes called abrahams seed , though self-justiciaries and gods people onely , so far as outward profession , yea , children of the stock of abraham are there distinguished from those among them that feared god , that is , proselytes . i told mr. m. that he joyned with arminius , in calling self-justiciary proselytes abraham 's seed : which mr. bayn denied . he saith , he joyned not with arminius , that i mis-allege arminius , joyn with servetus . to which i reply no more than i have done in my apology , pag. . sect. . to acquit himself from what i charge him with , that mr. bayn opposeth him , he brings words six lines before of mr. bayns , that say [ children of the flesh ] in some other scripture doth note out justiciaries , and that these words clear him , and that i was guilty of negligence or falshood . but sure i must continue still this charge against mr. m. and add further an imputation of negligence at least , if not of falshood , who heeded not that the words of mr. bayn which i alleged say as much , that the term [ children of the flesh ] elswhere signified self-justiciaries though not there ; yet the seed of abraham without any adjoyned is never so t●ken . now i did not charge with this that he had no scripture to prove self-justiciaries to be called children of the flesh ; but that he had no scripture to prove self-justiciary proselytes called abrahams seed , which m● bayn saith , is never so taken , and therefore mr. bayns words clear him not but condemn him . mr. m. says , i speak of abraham 's seed by calling , and that the promise [ i will be the god of thy seed ] was made good in the calling the gentiles , all which were not partakers of an inward calling , and therefore yield a seed of abraham onely by profession . but that which i say i mean not of a meer outward calling , nor of all the gentiles who are outwardly called . i excepted also against mr. blake for making some abraham 's seed in the bosom of the church now , who are born after the flesh , and thereby have a church-interest or a birth-right to church-privileges : and that he grosly alleged for this gal. . . and mr. m. in his sermon pag. . saith , we have also some ( meaning in the church ) who are onely a holy seed by external profession , gal. . what mr. blake replied hereto in his answer to my letter is answered in the postscript to my apology , sect. . what he hath said in his vindic. foed . cap. . is answered in the second part of this review sect. . mr. m. wonders at my calling those passages very gross , and tells me , . that it is apparant ishmael and the civil justiciaries , of which he was type , had a visible standing in the jewish church , and were the same of whom paul speaks , rom. . . and that in the same place paul himself saith , even so it is now ( even in the church of galatia it was so ) and paul by his doctrine laboured to make them better ) i see not why mr. blake might not use this as an argument , that some have a visible church-membership , and ought to partake of outward church-privileges , notwithstanding they will not have the inheritance of children unless they repent . answer . if this had been all mr. blake inferred from gal. . . i should have granted the conclusion , though i deny his exposition , and the proposition he raiseth from the text. but it is another thing that mr. blake and mr. m. in his sermon pag. . would have . mr. m. that gal . . there is mention of some who are onely a holy seed by external profession , and here expounds [ even so it is now ] in the church of galatia , there is a different seed of abraham , one which is holy onely by external profession , seeking righteousness by the works of the law , and have thereby a visible church-membership , and ought to partake of outward church-privileges , which is clean besides the meaning of the apostle , who doth not say , even so it is now in the church of galatia , but simply [ even so it is now ] that is , it so happens in the world , they that seek the righteousness by the works of the law persecute them that are born after the spirit , that is , who through the spirit do wait for the hope of the righteousness which is by faith ! which was true in the jews , who persecuted the apostles and other christians out of zeal for the law. now these had no visible standing in the christian church , nor is the term [ born after the flesh ] taken in the better part so as to import a privilege a holy seed by external profession , but in the worser part , for an unholy seed by external profession and practice persecuting the christian faith and hope . mr. blake exponds [ being born aft●r the flesh ] as if it imported a privilege , whereas it imports a cursed estate opposite to [ being born after the spirit ] and would have derived a title to church-interest of some in the bosome of the christian church , particularly believers infants : whereas to be horn after the flesh is applied there to persecuting unbelievers , who were not in the church , but cast out , nor had any church-interest by virtue of being born after the flesh , but had an opposing enmity to it thereby . nor is it said of infants that they were born after the flesh , but of such as persecuted them that were born after the spirit ; nor is there a word intitling them that were born after the flesh in that respect abrahams seed , though ishmael their type , and the jews his antitype were abrahams natural seed . so that m m. is mistaken in conceiving that which offends me in mr. blakes expression is , that he thinks there is a fleshly seed of abraham ; for i grant the jewish self-justiciaries were such . but i conceive a gross absurdity in mr. blake , that he takes [ being born after the flesh ] in the better part , as importing the privilege of church-interest to infants of believers , and calling such as are born after the flesh abrahams seed by way of privilege derived from that birth , importing the seed of such to be visible members in the christian church , of which i still conceive i passed a right censure in my examen for the reasons given , however mr. blake and his seconds take it . sect . xxvi . the mixture of the covenant gen. . as by me asserted is vindicated from mr. blake's exceptions , vind. foed . c. . but i am necessitated to have mo●e work with mr. blake , of whom i may say , ( whatever his worth be , and how excellent soever his treatise be accounted of by those who have commended it in their epistle , and others in other respects ) that not onely in his preface to the reader he doth unchristianly accuse me of scorn , and disrespect , of falsifica●ions such as a man might th●nk i had at once cast off all regard either of conscience or reputation without either cause or shew of proof , but also of a high spirit , of bloudy revenge , of uttering reviling words against the church of christ , having the same spirit with the jesuits , from those things which were innocent of any such spirit , and one grain of charitable candour with a little heed of my carriages and speeches might have freed me from , who do not any where charge him or my antagonists with such kinde of accusations , though i censure their arguings somewhat more freely than they think meet , who are not to be judges in their own cause . and for the book throughout there are so many misconstructions of my words , and so many satyrical quips and taunts instead of any clear disputing , that i can discern little or nothing of any brotherly affection to me , or study of truth in that part of his vind. foed . wherein he opposeth me . in his preface to the reader after those hard speeches of me forementioned , after his venting his conceit , as if that wherein he opposeth me were of least use in regard that point to great satisfaction hath been spoken to at large : of which i wish he had told in what part , and by whom such satisfaction is given , that i might have found it in his , mr. bs. or others writings , who yet finde no cause to recede from this opinion , that they have perverted the truth , and insufficiently handled the argument of infant-baptism ) and having contemptuously mentioned me ; as one generally lookt upon low enough under hatches , saith thus , i must assert the spirituality of the old covenant , and maintain that the gospel was preached as well to them as to us , that they a●e the same spiritual meat and drank the same spiritual drink , and here by him i am opposed . to which i answer , in this charge i may say truly in words of meekness , having answered this very crimination in my addition to my apology in answer to mr. baily , sect. . that i am impudently belied , supposing that by the old covenant he means the covenant made with abraham , gen. . which is termed the promises , the covenant that was confirmed of god in christ before the law four hundred and thirty years after , and distinguished from it gal. , , , , , , . and this mr. blake might have discerned , yea , i conceive did discern , when he from my words exercit. pag. . conceived my meaning to be that abraham had promises of bliss and in reference to eternal salvation , vind. foed . cap. . pag. . but that i may vindicate my self and the truth more fully from mr. blakes injurious dealings i shall take a view of that chapter . first , mr. blake saith falsly of me , that i am loth to yield to so much truth as to confess the old covenant ( meaning that gen. . ) to be a covenant evangelical , when as i grant exercit. pag. . some of the promises were evangelical , and that the covenant hath denomination from the promises . then he calumniates me in his spitefull fashion to make me odious and my writing suspected , as if i went in company with jesuits , whom he calls my old friends , and saith untruly i glean so much from them in this controversie ; and adds tha● i cast infants out of the covenant and church-membership , and so exclude them from baptism : whereas i have often acknowledged they are many of them in the covenant of grace truly so called , and the invisible church of the elect , which protestants assert against papists to be most properly termed the church of christ ; nor do i exclude infants from baptism because they are cast out of the covenant and church-membership , but because they are not disciple● whom christ appointed to be baptized , matth. . . next he excepts against me for saying , the covenant made with abraham is not a pure gospel-covenant , but mixt ; concerning which , . mr. blake saith , this expression of mr. t. is very untoward , and such that will bear no fai● sense without the utter overthrow , even of that difference between the covenants , which he would build on this distinction . the untowardness is in denying purity of gospel the first covenant and affirming a mixture . that which is not pure but mixt , is a compound of pure and impure ; such that hath some ingredients such as they ought , and others such that make all adulterate ; as silver mingled with dross , or wine with water , isai . . answer . mr. blake me thinks should know that there are mixtures which do not adulterate . there 's a natural mixture defined by aristotle , the union of bodies miscible altered , as in mixt bodies compound of the four elements reduced to a just temperament , without adultetating all . there 's an artificial mixture in medicines , of wine and sugar , of divers metalls in bells cast , in which and many more there 's no such impurity as that there are some ingredients , such as they ought , and others such as make all adulterate ; and therefore there 's no untowardness in the expression ; yea , the expression is so usual in morality , as when voluntary is divided into purely voluntary and mixt , in divinity the state of grace is either pure or mixt , &c. that i presumed none would have quarrelled with it , if my meaning be right . let 's see what mr. blake saith of my meaning . he tells us , that the false teachers ( st. paul 's adversaries ) preach such a mixt gospel , a compound of that which was pure and impure ; when they urged with such vehemency a mixture of works . but do i call any where the gospel mixt ? or do i preach any such mixture ? mr. blake himself acquits me , when he saith , this sure is not his meaning . what then doth mr. blake take my meaning to be ? i will set down his own words , that the reader may judg of his dealing with me . what then can be his meaning but that abraham had promises , not onely of bliss , and in reference to eternal salvation ; but he had premises also of earthly concernment , as that of the land of canaan , and his plantation there ? this seems to be his meaning by the words that presently follow : the covenant takes it●s denomination from the promises , but the promises are mixt ; some evangelical , belonging to those to whom the gospel belongeth ; some are domestick or civil promise● , specially respecting the house of abraham , and the policy of israel , to this i readily agree . answer . if mr. blake readily agree to that which in his own conceit seemed to be my meaning , with what conscience or with what face could he so falsly charge me , as opposing him in these things , that spirituality of the old covenant , the preaching of the gospel as well to them as to us , their eating the same spiritual meat , and drinking the same spiritual drink , as he doth in his preface , and here of untowardness in my expression , and such as will bear no fair sense without the overthrow , even of that difference between the covenants which i would build on this distinction . but let 's consider his reason of this last speech . to this , saith he , i readily agree , and then his distinction falls to nothing . answer . i should rather have imagined that the contrary follows , that if mr. blake do readily agree to my explication of the mixture of the covenant , that my distinction comes to something , being confirmed by mr. blakes suffrage , unless he take it for nothing . but let 's follow mr. blake , seeing in gospel-times , in new testament days , this will denominate not a pure but mixt gospel , we are under such a gosp●l . answer . . mr. blake alters the term distinguished . i did not distinguish of a pure gospel and a mixt gospel , as he intimates i did , but of a pure covenant and a mixt covenant , and asserted not the gospel preached to abraham to be mixt , but the covenant made with abraham . . it is false , that we are under such a mixt gospel , as he imagined i asserted ; but mr. blake confirms his assertion thus . i know not how we could pray in faith , give us this day our daily bread ; in case we were without a promise of these things , or how man could live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of god , in case we had no word from god. answer . a believer may pray for daily bread in faith trusting on gods goodness , as he is a creatour , as our saviour argues matth. . . as he is a father in christ , matth . . as he hath made general promises , mark . matth. . , . as he hath made special promises , prov. . . psalm . . confirmed by constant experience , psalm . . by the great assurance of the gift of christ , rom. . . though the special promises domestick or civil specially respecting the house of abraham and the policy of israel , belonging not to him the word , de●t . . . i take to be his word of power or command , such as that psalm . . not his word of promise ; yet if it be meant of his word of promise , there are other promises by which the patriarchs afore abraham , and the believers since have lived without the domestick or civil promises specially respecting the house of abraham , and the policy of israel . but mr. blake adds , the apostle tells us , godliness hath the promise of this life , and that which is to come , tim. . . it would trouble many a perplexed man in case he could not make good , that those words , verily thou shalt be fed , psalm . . did not at all belong to him . there is no believing man in any relation but he hath gospel-promises in concernment to that relation , as appears in that speech of paul 's encouragement of servants , ephes. . . it were ill with all sorts , had not they their domestick relation-promises . answer . all this is true , and yet it is true also that the special promises domestick or civil specially respecting the house of abraham and policy of israel belong not to every believer . mr. bl. saith , i place great confidence in my proof this mixture of the covenant . and sets down my words apolog. . averring my proof so full as that i wonder mr. m. mr. blake , and others , are not ashamed to except against it , that what i deliver is plain according to scripture , that there were some peculiar promises made to abraham , gen. . which are not made to every believer , that the words tim. . . is not to the present purpose , for it doth not follow therefore that godliness hath the promise of the land of canaan , or that christ should be every godly mans seed . and then adds , i think i shall more gratifie the reader in leaving this to his smile , than in giving any refutation of it ; if he could assume that there is no earth but that of canaan , or at least that no other promise of earth but that will serve to make a mixture , then he spake somewhat to the purpose ; otherwise it will be believed , that our promises under the gospel of things of earth as well serve to make up a mixture as abraham 's promise of the land of canaan . answer . whether mr. blakes talk or mine be ridiculous the reader may judg . my speech is to purposes aimed at by me , to wit , the enervating the arguings from abrahams covenant and circumcision for infant-baptism , by shewing that the covenant gen. . was not a pure gospel-covenant , that is , having no promises but what belongs to every believer , and consequently baptism not sealing the same covenant every way which circumcision did , and therefore there is not the same reason from the covenant why infants should be baptized though they were circumcised . and this purpose i doubt not to attain though i grant there is other earth than that of canaan , and that there may be other promises of earth besides ▪ that which will serve to make a mixture , and yet the promises of things of earth as now extant under the gospel do not as well serve to make up the mixture i assert in abrahams covenant , promising the land of canaan to be in the covenant of pure evangelical grace as now it stands , sith those promises of earth and this life are made to every believer or godly man now , whereas the promises of canaan and other things specially respecting the house of abraham and policy of israel gen. . and elsewhere were not made to l●t and other godly believers it is likely then living , nor to gentile-believers now under the gospel . mr. bl. goes on thus . . as his expression is untoward , so taking him at the best his proof is weak , that the covenant takes its denomination from the promises ; but the promises are mixt . the most eminent promises ( which contain the m●rrow of all ) give the denomination , and not such that are annext as appendants to them . answ. though the most eminent promises may give the denomination of the covenant to be an evangelical covenant , yet to denominate it a pure evangelical covenant it is necessary that not onely the most eminent , but also that all the promises be evangelical : as though a man may be termed a saint from the habitual purpose and bent of his heart , and the constant course of his actions , yet he is not denominated purely a saint but from the entire and universal purpose , bent , inclination of his heart , and entireness of holiness in his actions without the least inconformity to it . mr. bl. proceeds thus , such as is the promise of the land of canaan , an appendant to the great covenant made of god with abraham , as chamier with good warrant from the text gen . , . calls it lib. de baptis . cap. sect. the covenant being made of god to be a god of abraham and his seed ( which might have been made good wheresoever they had inhabited or sojourned ) the promise of canaan is over and above added to it . the reason given by m. t. for his dislike of chamier 's expression , calling it an appendix to the covenant , is little to purpose , psalm . , . the gift of the land of canaan is called a covenant , and therefore not an appendant to it . by the same reason circumcision must be the covenant , and not a seal appendant to it ; seeing circumcision is called a covenant , gen. ▪ . mr. t. is not ignorant of th●se scripture metonymies ▪ answ. i finde chamier lib. de baptis . cap. . sect. . saying , that the promise of canaan is not the covenant , but an appendix to the covenant . but i finde not that he produceth any warrant from the text gen. . , . to call it so , nor that he doth any other way go about to prove it , but that the words gen. . . i will be thy god and of thy seed . which he calls the covenant , is ill explained of earthly happiness , either as the chief or onely happiness , there meant which he proves from matth ▪ . . nor is there any force in this reason , the promise of canaan is added , v. . over and above the promise v. . therefore it was an appendix and not the covenant . for if this reason be good , it might be said , the promise v. . is not the covenant , but an appendix to it , cause it is added over and above the promise , v. . add as for me , behold my covenant is with thee , and thou shalt be a father of many nations , which is termed gods covenant with him , gen. . . yea , me thinks the argument is good to the contrary , the promise gen. . . was added over and above the promise v. . and closed with this epiphoneme , and i will be their god ; therefore it was a part of the covenant , yea a main part of it . nor because the promise v. . might have been made good wheresoever they had inhabited or sojourned . doth it follow that the promise v. . was not a part of the covenant , for by the same reason neither the promise v. . that abraham should be a father of many nations , had been a part of the covenant , sith the promise v. . might have been made good though he had been father of one nation onely . mr. blake doth not rightly form my reason from psalm . , , , . thus , the gift of the land of canaan is called a covenant , and therefore not an appendant to it , but thus it is in my examen part . sect. . the psalmist calls the promise of canaan the covenant made with abraham , psalm . , , , . therefore it is a part of the covenant , and not onely an appendix . nor doth it follow that then circumcision must be the covenant , for it is confessedly called the covenant gen. . . by a metonimy , and v. . shews it where it is said , and it shall be the token of the covenant between me and you . but it cannor be expounded by a metonimy psalm . , , , . for , . the gift of the land of canaan was not a sign of the covenant , nor can with any good sense be called the covenant according to any other sort of metonimy besides that of the thing signified for the sign . . if it could , yet the phrases used shew it cannot be understood metonimically ; for it is called as well , the word which he commanded to a thousand generations , the covenant which he made with abraham , the oath unto isaac , which he confirmed to jacob for a law , and to israel for an everlasting covenant ; and when it is recited the psalmist prefixeth v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which our translation reade , saying , junius , piscator , dicendo , which doth directly tell us wherein it was that the covenant he made did formally consist , which he is said to remember v. . which thing is so clearly expressed nehem. . . gen. . . & . , , , , &c. that i should wonder mr. bl. should persist in this wrangling course to question a thing so plain , but that i see him tenacious of absurdities he vents though never so gross , as from his exposition and inference from gal. . , and other passages hath been made appear . mr. bl. adds , . as his proof is weak , to make the covenant not a pure gospel-covenant , but mixt ; so in the third place , he is not constant to himself , pointing that out which he makes pure gospel , ( gen. . . gen. . . gen. . illustrated by some new testament scriptures rom. . , . gal. ▪ , , . acts . . ) he observes yea it is to be noted , that those promises which were evangelical according to the more inward sense of the holy ghost , do point at the privileges of abrahams house in the outward face of the words , and thereupon raises a doubt , whether any covenant made with abraham be simply evangelical ? and so he can finde out evangelical promises in the inwards of that covenant , which is non-evangelical in the outward face ; so bellarmine , with whom he so much ( to speak in his own language ) symbolizeth , can finde out spiritual evangelical promises in that which he concluded to be of another nature ; denying that the promise made to abraham in the letter , was any promise of forgiveness of sins , but of special protection and government , and earthly happiness ; yet confesseth that in a mystical sense they were spiritual promises , both of pardon of sin and life eternal , and that they belong to us , bellar. de sacram. bapt. lib. . cap. . whereof chamier observes , that which is promised mystically god in covenant doth promise ; but heaven is here promised mystically ; therefore in this covenant here is a promise of heaven ; so the inward and outward face will be all evangelical . answ. mr. bl. mis-recites my words ; . in saying , that i point out in the texts gen. . . & . . & . . & . . that which i make pure gospel ; for my words are , that was evangelical which we reade gen. . , &c. not that it was pure gospel . . that i raise a doubt whether [ any ] covenant made with abraham be simply evangelical ? whereas my words are , whence it may be well doubted , whether [ this ] covenant made with abraham may be called simply evangelical , not whether [ any ] which is the same with that speech forecited sect . of mr. all●n , this covenant was not simply and one●y the covenant of grace . but what inconstancy to my self giving and taking , not knowing what to determine , is in those speeches , or in that other which he most excepts against : yea , it is to be noted , &c. i am yet to learn. do i ei●her by saying that the promises were evangelical say that they were purely ev●ngelical not mixt ) or by doubting whether they may be called simply evanglical revoke what i said , that they were evangelical ? i think mr. blak● will as soon extract water out of a flint as such inferences from my words . young legicians do know that to argue a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter is ●allacious . as for my speech which he saith symbolizeth with bellarmine , if it be true , it is not the worse for that : nor did i blame mr. m. for symbolizing with arminius in a truth , but for agreeing with him in that explication which doth undermine the true explication of rom. . . which the contraremonstrants prove from the text. if bellarmine did by mystical sense mean the same which i did by the more inward sense of the holy ghost , and by the letter what i express by the outward face of the words , i see not that either chamier or mr. bl. have or can prove it false . the sense in the outward face of the words i call that which a linguist who knows what words signifie would conceive upon reading without any other revelation from the holy ghost . but i cannot believe that any linguist without other revelation than what the bare words hold forth would ever have understood these promises , a father of many nations have i made thee , i will be a god to thee and thy seed . thus gentiles as well as jews shall believe in christ , i will justifie , raise thee up , and all that are my elect , or who believe as thou dost to eternal life . i grant chamiers conclusion , in this covenant here is a promise of heaven , and yet deny that the outward face of the covenant gen. . is all evangelical , nor is there a word in mr. blakes that proves it . mr. blake proceeds thus , lastly , mr. t. yet knows not how to bring any thing home ( were all granted ) to serve his interest . and then sets down what he conceives to be my meaning , which he thus opposeth . first , that orthodox divines both ancient and modern have made circumcision to be of the same signification and use as baptism , and till anabaptists closed they had no adversaries , but papists , who to advance their opus operatum in the sacraments of the new testament will have them as far to exceed the old , as heaven doth earth , and the substance doth the shadow ; and then cites a speech of chamier panst. ca●h . tom . . lib. . cap. . sect . . and prosecutes his calumnies of my borrowing my weapons i use against infant-baptism from the jesuits , to all which i answer . . that i grant that circumcision and baptism are in part of the same signification and use , nor did i ever deny it ; but in as many and more things they differ , which i have shewed exercit. sect. . examen part . . sect. . in this part of the review , sect. . and those disparities i prove out of scripture and the best learned and approved protestant writers . nor do i agree with the jesuits in holding baptism to confer grace ex op●re operato , nor do i undervalue the covenant with abraham and his seed as no gospel-covenant , nor do i deny circumcision to have been the seal of a gospel-promise . as mr. blake doth calumniate me , and to make odious doth fa●sly and injuriously suggest i took from the jesuits . but this i confess i hold exercit. sect. . that there is not the same reason of circumcision and baptism , in signing the evangelical covenant ; nor may there be an argument drawn from the administration of the one to the like manner of administring the other , of both which speeches i have given an account in that place which i finde not yet invalidated ; and if they hold , the analogy between infant-circumcision and infant-baptism is evacuated , there being difference between the covenant made with abraham and the new covenant though both be in some sort evangelical ; and therefore the mixture of the covenant will serve my interest in this point . . it is false which mr. blake saith , that my conformity with the jesuits about the difference between circumcision and baptism to maintain the opus operatum of the one to the disparagement of the other , as if baptism exceeded circumcision as far as the substance the shadow , did put me upon it to affirm , that what all protestant divines defend against the papists must be truth undeniable is no undeniable axiome : for neither do i conform to jesuits in● that point , nor was such conformity any reason of that speech , but the words of mr. m. in his sermon , as the reading of the words of my examen pag. . shew . and i say still that speech is a truth , and necessary to be avouched by all those who ascribe onely authentick authority to the holy scripture . nor is it reasonable to require that i should shew any such errour as is maintained by all protestant divines against papists . for , . it is not possible for me to shew what all protestant divines hold against papists . . nor is it necessary to verifie my speech which avoucheth not any such errour in act , but onely the possibility of it , which is sufficiently made good by p●oving them not infallible . and to the demand how popery should be known if that be no : popery which all protestant divines defend against the papists . i answer . . it may be counted popery and yet perhaps a truth which all protestant divines oppose . . what is popery which we have engaged our selves to extirpate is better known in the ways i set down ap. p. , . sect. . than in mr. blakes way . for , . it is not possible for any man no not the greatest reader in controversies to know what all protestant divines defend against papists . . if that be the rule to know popery by , many things will not be taken for popery which are , there being many tenents which are counted popery which protestants divines and those of good note have not opposed , but have granted many things favourably to them , as not onely the collections of brerely and such like papists , but also the treatises of the cassandrian writers , and late episcopal protestant do shew , which yet i do not approve of . i agree with mr. blake that there is less likelihood that the truth should be with the papists than with the protestants , and yet there may be some truth which some papists may discern which many protestants do not . it is the saying of doctor twisse vind. grat. lib. . part . . sect . . digress . . num . . but i would not that those things should be rejected of us , because the schoolmen hold them ; for neither do the cretians fain all things . augustines judgment was esteemed better than the pelagians as being the oracle of his time , yet he is censured as the hard father of infants for maintaining their damnation if they died unbaptized . calvin was in high esteem as the great light of the protestant churches , who have many of them followed him in the point about usury , yet the popish and prelatical divines are generally counted by our most zealous preachers more right in that point than the transmarine calvinists . it is a wicked calumny which mr. blake vents whe he saith of me , that i 〈◊〉 in upon the party of these sons of anak , meaning the jesuits . had he any other than a malignant spirit towards me , he would have judged that not to side with jesuits , but to keep my oath which i took in the solemn covenant i did oppose infant-baptism , in maintaining of which he and the rest of the paedobaptists have broken the covenant , whereby they bound themselves to reform the worship of god after the word of god. and for what he chargeth me with , that i borrow my weapons from the jesuits , though my denial is enough to acquit me from it , there being none but knows my actions better than my self , and with men not malevolent to me i think my words at least deserve as much credit concerning my own actions as mr. blakes , yet as i said so i repeat it , it appears to be a loud calum●y in that all along in my examen , and now in my other writings almost in every point i produce protestants of good note concurring with me , not onely in the point about the extent of the covenant examen sect . . part . . and the holiness of children , cor. . . exam. part . . sect . . exerc. sect . . review part . . sect . . but also about the institution , mat. . . review part . . sect . . even in this point of the mixture of the covenant in the section next before this . yea , the principle upon which i found all my dispute is that which mr. cotton in his preface to his dialogue for infant-baptism confesseth to be a main principle of purity and reformation . and though protestant writers do many of them oppose my conclusion , yet they do agree with me in the premisses on which i build it , to wit , that baptism is to be after the institution , and that neither the institution nor practice in the new testament was of paedobaptism , and all paedobaptists whether presbyterians or independents who do hold that inf●nts belong to the visible church as the posterity of abraham to the jewish church ●o injuriously keep them whose baptism they avouch to be good , and to be vi●●ble church-members , from the lords supper for want of knowl●dg ; as for what he tells me , he can trace me out of some jesuit in what i de●●●er ●bout the covenant and seal , though i do not yet believe it , yet there is no reason therefore to reject it , as doctor 〈◊〉 saith truly . bishop morton in his apology hath produced popish writers and many of them jesuits who deliver the same things which the protestants do ; yet this is so f●r from discrediting their cause that it is justly counted a good plea for them , and why should not the like plea be good on my behalf , sith jesuits are adversaries to me , as well as others ? but enough if not too much in answer to these calumnies sufficiently answered before , postscript sect. . mr. blake proceeds thus , secondly , if circumcision have respect to those promises that were no gospel-mercies , but civil , domestical , restrained to jews , and not appertaining to christians ; how could it be a distinction between jew and gentile respective to religion , it might have made a civil distinction , and the want of it have been an evidence against other nations , that they had been none of the multiplied seed of abraham according to the flesh , and that their interest had not been in canaan . but how could it have concluded them to have been without christ , strangers from the covenant of promise , having no hope and without god in the world , as the apostle determines upon their uncircumcision ▪ ephes. . , . cannot be imagined . ans. . circumcision did not make such a distinction between jew and gentile respective to religion , as that every circumcised person was of the jewish religion : for if the posterity of ishmael and esau were not circumcised as mahometans at this day ( which some historians say of them at least for a time that they were ) yet ahab and other worshiperps of baal were of the posterity of jacob , and the samaritans , as mr. mede in his discourse on john . . were circumcised , yet were not of the jewsh religion , or at least there was a distinction in religion between them john . . no● every one that worshipped the same god with the jews was circumcised . cornelius and many other proselytes of the gate owned the god and spiritual worship , and moral law of the jews , though they were not circumcised , as mr. mede proves in his discourse on acts . . nor doth the apostle ephes. . , . determine upon their uncircumcision , that is , conclude them without hope , without god , barely from their uncircumcision , as if he held all uncircumcised were without hope , without god : but he onely sets those things down as concurrent , not one the certain cause or sign of the other . . circumcision did distinguish between jew and gentile respective to religion , not because it sealed gospel-mercies , nor because it sealed promises of civil or domestick benefits ▪ but because it bound to the observance of the law of moses , in respect of the observation of which the distinction in religion was known by circumcision not by its sealing the covenant-promises , either evangelical , or civil and domestick . . if the distinction between jew and gentile respective to religion were made by circumcision as sealing the covenant , gen. . it might have made a religious distinction by my tenet , who hold it signed the spiritual promises , though not them onely , as wel : as by mr. blakes . the next thing which mr. blake urgeth against me from jerem. . . rom. . . deut. . . deut. . . ezek. . . is that circumcision had relation to promises spiritual , which is not denied , nor any thing against the mixture i hold in the covenant , nor to evacuate any inference i make from it . in like manner the fourth tends to prove that circumcision did not respect alone the civil interest of the jews , which i grant . but the fifth thing urged by mr. blake needs some examination . fifthly , saith he , how is it that the apostle giving a definition of circumcision refers it to nothing rational , civil or domestick , but onely to that which is purely spiritual , speaking of abraham , he saith , he received the sign of circumcision , a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had , yet being uncircumcised ? the righteousness of faith is a promise purely evangelical , rom. . . & . . & . . phil. . . and this circumcision sealed , the self-same thing that our sacraments seal . answer . the apostle doth not give a definition of circumcision , rom. . , . for , . that which is to be defined is , say logicians , a common term , but circumcision rom. . . is not a common term , but a singular , or individual , to wit , that which abraham had in his own person , it is that which he received , and the time is noted to be after he had righteousness by faith , which he had yet being uncircumcised , for a singular privilege to be the father of believers . ergo . there is no genus , nor difference of circumcision from other things , therefore no definition . no genus , for the term [ seal ] cannot be the genus , it being a meer metaphor , and so not declaring what it is , but what it is like , in respect of the use . besides , circumcision is an action , but seal is in the predicament of relation , as being a sign , or a figure in the predicament of quality , or an aggregate compound of a material substance , having a figure for signification . but the genus is in the same predicament with the species , and so is not [ seal ] with [ circumcision ] ergo. for doth seal of the righteousness of faith agree to all circumcision , nor difference it from the spirit of god ; nor according to the paedobaptists hypothesis , from the pass-over , baptism , or the lords supper . mr. blake adds , so that their extraordinary sacraments are expresly affirmed to be the same with ours by the apostle , cor. . . they eat all the same spiritual meat , and did all drink the same spiritual drink , so are their appointed established sacraments , circumcision and the pass-over . answer . . the extraordinary sacraments are said to note the same thing with ours , not expresly affirmed to be the same with ours . ▪ it is no where said in scripture that circumcision and the pass-over did note the same thing with our sacraments , much less that they are the same sacraments with ours . mr. blake adds , will mr. t. with his old friend bellarmine lib. . cap. . de saramentis in genere , and mr. blackwood in his reply to the tenth objection , deny that circumcision was an universal seal of faith , but was onely an individual seal of the undividual faith of abraham , and so all falls to the ground which is spoken from that text of the use of circumcision to the jews . all that is there spoken , having reference onely to abraham in person . answer . mr. blake tells me of an old friend of mine whom i never knew , and have hitherto made him mine adversary , although perhaps we may agree in some things , and i think mr. blake and he agree in more than i do with him . it seems not to me to be bellar. opinion , or mr. blackwoods that circumcision was onely an individual seal of the faith of abraham , but bellarmines opinion is , that his circumcision did testifie not his individual faith , but his individual privilege to be father of the faithfull , which mr. blake agrees with him in , when he saith , this priority of receiving the faith and the sign and seal , is proper to abraham· and then he is as much his old friend as mine . mr. blackwood in his reply to the second part of the vind. of the birth-privilege , pag. . saith thus , so that circumcision was a seal of the righteousness which abraham had , not in persona propria , but in persona relativa , it sealed unto him not his own personal righteousness , which he had long before , but the righteousness of all believers . in which i dissent from him , conceiving it sealed both : however his opinion seems to be otherwise than mr. blake represents it . for my self i do not make it any seal of faith either universal or individual , nor know i well what sense to make of either , but this is my opinion , that abrahams individual circumcision , and no others is made rom. . , . the seal of the righteousness of faith to abraham as the father of believers , and to all believers of all nations as his seed . now to this opinion of mine i finde nothing opposite , but against another point that abrahams circumcision was a seal of the righteousness of faith and of the covenant to him onely , which i disclaim , and therefore let his arguments pass without gain-saying , onely i request the reader to take notice that mr. blake hath many ways mis-represented my opinion in this ch. but hath not at all overthrown the mixture in the covenant gen. . which i assert ; but where he sets down my opinion rightly saith pag. . to this i readily agree , nor hath at all so much as brought one reason to shew that my distinction shews not my turn for which i bring it , which he undertook to do , but leaves that thing and runs out in calumnies of me , and proving that which i deny not . sect . xxvii . the four first chapters of mr. sidenham's exercitation are examined , and his vanity in his conceits about consequences proving infant-baptism , the purity of the covenant gen. . infants of believers being abraham's seed and in covenant , is shewed . i think it necessary for many reasons afore i review the dispute about mr. ms. second conclusion to consider what mr. cuthbert sidenham hath said in the four first chapters of his exercitation . . he forestalls his reader with things palpably false , that there is nothing in all the new testament against the baptizing of infants , not one hint from any express word dropt from christ or his apostles ; not one phrase , which though never so much strained doth forbid such an act . the contrary whereof is abundantly proved in the second part of this review , sect. . &c. nor can any paedobaptist finde so much against infant-communion , bell-baptism , baptizing of dead persons , baptism of midwives , the cross in baptism , and many other prelatical and popish usages as there is in the new testament against infant-baptism . . that all his opposites have onely this to say , that they can finde no syllabical precept or word of command in terms , saying , go baptize infants , or any positive example where it is said in so many words infants were baptized , all that they say besides is to quarrel with and evade their arguments , and that this argument is built on this false principle , that no direct consequences from scripture are mandatory : the contrary whereof is so manifest out of my examen part . . sect . . apol. sect . . ( which mr. sidenham often quotes , and therefore cannot be ignorant of unless wilfully ) and throughout all my writings , that a man can hardly conceive but that he shamelesly vented these things against his own knowledg . and therefore i need not answer his reasons to prove the use of consequence . let any paedobaptist give me one good consequence whereby infant-baptism is proved , and i shall yield ▪ the consequences of mr. baxter and others i finde to be meer fallacies , and have , and doubt not with divine assistance to shew them to be so . that which he saith , pag. . that where we have a promise laid as the foundation of a duty that is equivalent to any express command ; for as commands in the gospel do suppose promises , to encourage us to act ●●em , and help us in them ; so promises made to persons do include commands , especially when the duties commanded are annexed to the promises , as all new testament ordinances are as well as old ; is ambiguous , and in what sense , it is true it serves not mr. sidenhams turn to prove infant-baptism . by foundation of a duty may be understood either a motive to encourage to a duty named , as when it is said , him that honoureth me i will honour , this promise doth suppose it a duty to honour god , and is a motive to encourage to it , and so is a foundation in that sense of the duty : o● by foundation of a duty may be understood the rule according to which that duty is to be performed , and this may be understood either thus , to whomsoever there is a promise of that thing by which a duty is urged on others they are bound to do that duty , and then it is false : for christ promised matth. . , . to the apostles whom he bid preach the gospel and baptize , that he would be with them , and matth. . . to two or three gathered together to be in the midst of them , doth it therefore follow that every two or three gathered together in his name are commanded to preach and baptize ? or it may be understood thus , that he to whom the promise is upon the doing of that duty is bound to do it ; and this i grant to be true : but this will not serve mr. sidenhams turn : for there is no promise to infants that upon their baptizing themselves they should have remission of sins , nor is mr. sidenham so absurd as to make baptism infants duty , but their right : now as mr. sidenham would have it , that because there 's a promise to infants , therefore others are in duty bound to baptize them , as having right to it , it is false , sith the institution of baptism is not to whom god hath promised to be a god , for that is according to his election which is unknown , rom. . , , . but to them who are disciples or believers in christ , matth. . . mark . , . there are ambiguities in the speeches that commands in the gospel do suppose promises , that promises made to persons do include commands , that all the new testament ordinances are annexed to promises , which would be too tedious and unnecessary to unfold , it is sufficient to shew they will not serve mr. sidenhams turn in the sense they are true , and will as well serve to prove infants right to the lords supper , as to baptism . that which he saith , we have as much in the new testament to prove infant-baptism , from the true principles of right to ordinances , as they have for those whom they baptize ; for they baptize grown persons on such and such considerations ; and we shall hereafter shew we baptize on as strong and equivalent grounds , is notoriously false : for we baptize according to the qualification required in the institution of christ , and the apostles and other preachers baptizing and directing the use of baptism in the new testament which are acknowledged the true principles of right to ordinances , and it is acknowledged even by paedobaptists that they have neither precept nor example in the new testament of infant-baptism , and therefore cannot have as strong and warrantable grounds as we who are pistobaptists , that is , baptizers of believers . nor is it true that it is requisite we should shew them express●command against infant-baptism , it is enough that they cannot prove in its institution . infants never by divine warrant enjoyed baptism , and for circumcision it was more unlike than like to baptism , and of it an authentique repeal is easily shewed acts . and elsewhere . in the rest mr. sidenham shews not why infants should not have been baptized at first , as well as grown men if it had been christs minde ; ishmael and all abrahams males were circumcised the self same day in which abraham was , gen. . , . and therefore if paedobaptists hypothesis were right , infants as well as persons of years should have been baptized by the apostles ▪ which they did not , for in that it is not exprest , it is enough to shew it was not done , unless we make the spirit of god defective in what was needfull to have been set down , and to say as mr. sidenham doth , there is enough to shew it was done though not written , is with the papists to maintain unwritten traditions ▪ rule ●f manners . there is no hint left by christ or the apostles to deduce as a infant-baptism from . and it is false which he saith , god hath always ordained some ordinances in the administration● of which , for the most part , the subject hath been purely passive . he names nor can name any till the institution of circumcision , which was not till after the world had been above two thousand years . the rest of his speech savours of this corrupt principle , that what we conceive fit in gods worship is to be accounted his minde . this is enough in answer to the first chapter . in the second he saith untruly , that the covenant gen. . was first made with abraham and his seed in the name of all believers and their seed , both jews and gentiles ; nor is it true that if he should finde the same covenant reaching gentile believers and their children as abraham and his they cannot be denied the new external sign and seal of the same covenant , that is , baptism . and for what he saith , the covenant gen. . was a covenant of pure grace , i grant it so far as it was evangelical , but deny it to be a pure gospel-covenant , nor do any of his reasons prove any more than i grant , that there were gospel-promises meant by god under promises of temporal mercies proper to abraham and his natural posterity , and those that joyned with them in their policy ; which i have proved before , out of scripture to be termed the covenant it self without a metonymy , and god is said to keep that covenant by establishing the israelites in canaan , and therefore it is but vain talk that the promise of canaan was but an additional , appendix , added ex super abundanti , if he mean it of the covenant gen. . if he mean it of the gospel-covenant it is more true that was added to the other as a more hidden sense under the promises of civil and domestick privileges . i do not make a mixture in the gospel-covenant , but in the covenant made with abraham , gen. . nor by mixture do i understand any other than a composition of various parts , not a mixture in the nature of it , or substance or circumstances : but that the covenant made with abraham had promises of two sorts , some promises in the first obvious sense of the words proper to abrahams natural posterity , some spiritual common to all believers in the more hidden sense of the words , which with what hath been said before is enough to answer that chapter a●so , proceeding upon mistakes of my meaning in the term [ mixt ] in many passages , and the rest if not answered before , i let pass , because dictates without proof . in the third , after he hath allowed the distinctions of abrahams seed into carnal and spiritual , natural and believing , he sets down six considerations . . that abraham 's spiritual seed were as much his fleshly seed also , isaac as ishmael except proselytes and servants : which may be granted with these limitations . . that it be not understood universally , for christian believing gentiles● neither proselytes to israel , nor servants to them , are abrahams spiritual seed , yet not at all abrahams fleshly seed . . that isaac was as much abrahams fleshly seed as ishmael according to the meaning rom. . . as fleshly seed is called from natural generation simply considered : but not as gal. . . it is meant of fleshly seed called so from natural generation in some respect , to wit , as begotten in a baser way . the second consideration of mr. sidenham is this , [ the covenant was administred to all abrahams natural and fleshly children , as if they had been spiritual , and before they knew what faith was , or could actually profess abrahams faith . ] if he mean by the covenant onely circumcision i grant it of all abrahams natural male children : if he mean the covenant of grace which is evangelical , though i deny not that it was administred by the mediation of christ , and the work of the spirit , to many elect infants afore believing , yet i deny that it ever was or shall be administred to any but the elect of god , who have the denomination of abrahams spiritual seed . for i know not how the covenant which promiseth remission of sins , justification , regeneration , adoption ▪ eternal life is said to be administred but by giving these , which are given onely to the elect , not to abrahams meer natural or fleshly seed . meer outward ordidances and outward gifts and privileges as they are not promised in the gospel-covenant , which we call the covenant of grace , either as made to abraham , or confirmed by christs bloud , so neither are they administrations of it , but arise from gods command or providence without the covenant as evangelical . his third consideration is , it 's no contradiction in different respects to be a seed of the flesh by natural generation , and a childe under the same promise made with the parent ; for they both agreed in abraham 's case : which i grant , if meant of isaac and jacob , and such other heirs of the promise , as the scriptures term them . but i reject that which follows , that none was a childe of promise , but as he came of abraham 's flesh : for believing gentiles are children of the promise though they come not of abrahams flesh , yea it is not onely true to the contrary , but expresly avowed rom. . . that none are children of the promise as they come of abraham 's flesh . nor is it true , that as he came from abraham 's flesh , so every one had the seal of gods covenant on his flesh ▪ for this is not true of males under eight days old , or females , and therefore this inference is vain : thus a spiritual promise was made with abraham and his carnal seed . his fourth consideration is , there was no distinction of abraham 's fleshly seed and his spiritual seed in the old testament , but all comprehended under the same covenant , untill they degenerated from abraham 's faith , and proved themselves to be meer carnal , and rejected the promise . but this is manifestly false , esau was abrahams fleshly seed , but never his spiritual seed . the apostle determines rom . . afore he had done good or evil he was rejected , and with the apostle a childe of the promise , and an elect person are the same . no man is abrahams spiritual seed but an elect person , or true believer : scripture makes none else his seed spiritual rom. . , . & . , . gal. . . john . . this very authour makes the distinctions of fleshly and spiritual , believing and natural taken out of rom. . , gal. . . & . . most true . and if a person may be abrahams spiritual seed a while , then the degenerate the elect , and true believers may fall away finally and totally , and if they that be abrahams fleshly seed be under the same covenant with the spiritual till they degenerate , then a person may be in the covenant of grace , and be meerly carnal , having not the spirit of god , then a man may be in the covenant of grace and not abide in it , then the covenant of grace may be defective , mutable , and if there be no distinction of abrahams fleshly seed and his spiritual in the old testament , untill they rejected the promise , then there is no distinction of elect and reprobate till in time they embrace or reject the promise contrary to rom. . . he that holds this position must become an arminian . his fifth is , there is a carnal and spiritual seed of abraham , even under the new testament , as our opposites must acknowledg , as well as infants ; so are the most visible professours which they baptize ; which may have no grace ; and many prove carnal indeed , through the predominancy of their lusts and corruptions . answer . it is ackdowledged that there is a carnal seed of abraham under the new testament in the jewish nation : but visible professours of the gentiles which are baptized although they be many of them carnal men ( and so are many of the congregational churches not baptized ) yet they cannot be termed the carnal seed of abraham , being not his seed either by nature or by believing as he did . his sixth is , when there is mention of abraham 's carnal seed in opp●sition to spiritual seed , it cannot be meant primarily or solely of those that descended from abraham 's flesh ; for then isaac and jacob were the carnal seed , yea christ himself , who as concerning the flesh came of abraham ; it must be therefore of those of abraham 's seed which degenerated and slighted the covenant of the gospel , and these were properly the carnal seed . answer . the distinction of abrahams carnal and spiritual seed is as the distinction of the church into visible and invisible , in which the members may agree to the same persons , though on the other side also they may not agree . the same persons may be of the church visible and invisible , and yet some persons may be of the church visible who are not of the invisible , and some of the invisible who are not of the invisible : so some are abrahams carnal seed who are also his spiritual , as isaac , jacob , christ ; some ●re his spiritual seed but not his carnal , as gentile believers ; some his carnal seed but not his spiritual , as unbelieving jews ; some neither his carnal nor spiritual seed , as unsound professours of faith of the gentiles , who are no way abrahams seed , nor ever called his carnal seed in scripture . there are but two places i know in which the term of abrahams fleshly seed or childe is used rom. . . gal. . . in both which is meant of his seed by natural generation , though in the later in a worse way . in the former way , those that embraced the covenant without degenerating from abrahams faith , being descended from abraham by natural generation , are as properly termed abrahams carnal seed as those israelites that did backslide . i grant , abraham was a natural father to many of th●se to whom he was a spiritual father , as to isaac and jacob and the godly of their posterity , but not to all . he was a spiritual father to believing galatians , though not a natural , gal. . . but what mr. sidenham saith , that all to whom abraham was a natural father were under the covenant , and had the seal untill they rejected themselves , is in no part true : not the former , for ishmael was never under the covenant , whether it be meant of the spiritual promises or temporal , unless mr. sidenham means by b●i●ng under the covenant being circumcised , which is all one with having the seal , and then he useth an inept tautology in his speech without good sense . nor is the later true of females and males under eight days old . i grant that both abr●hams natural and spiritual children were circumcised , which mr. sidenham means when in the paedobaptists gibberish he saith , the promise took in both relations , as to outward administration : but rom. . , , , . speak●●●●●ing of the spiritual childe of abraham but the natural . and for what mr. sidenham saith , and if men truly state things , you may argue as much against abraham 's natural seed from enjoying these privileges , as believers natural seed now , and with as much evidence of truth . i know not what he means by truly stating things , the privileges mentioned rom. . , , , . are circumcision , and the commission of the oracles of god to them , and this later is reckoned as the jews advantage ; and though it be true , that we have the benefit of the oracles of god , yet it is not true of our children in infancy , nor of any of us or our children , that to them were the oracles of god committed as to the jews . and for circumcision it is true , we may argue as much against abrahams natural seed from enjoying it as believers natural seed now , and with as much evidence of truth , since christ is come , circumcision the shadow is to cease , both to jews and gentiles : and me thinks mr. sidenhams arguing should be the same with ours if he were a christian ( as i doubt not he was ) and not a jew . but that which mr. sidenham would have is , that a believers natural childe should be abrahams seed , and this is the true stating of things , which perhaps he means . but afore i state things after mr. sidenhams minde , i must see some proof , as yet i see no one proof to make good any of his ( inconsiderate ) considerations . he takes upon him to weigh the scriptures brought by his opposites to prove , that they onely are abrahams seed meant in the covenant as it was evangelical gen , . . to be true believers or elect persons . the first is rom. . , , . in the setting down of the occasion of which words he saith , here ( rom. . , . ) is a catalogue of high privileges which belonged to the jews , which they acre to be cut off from , which l●y on paul ' s heart , and was like to sink him . but this is a frivolous conceit , for the privileges there reckoned are all or most of them of things already past , such as they could not be deprived of , for that which is already done cannot no not by god himself be not done , for it would imply a contradiction : so those that were israelites , whose were the fathers , who had the giving of the law , of whom as concerning the flesh christ came , could not be cut off from these privileges which were things past , yea to imagine that the jews should be deprived of those privileges is to overthrow the faith of the christians , who believe that christ came of the fathers of the israelites according to the flesh , of which the jews could not be deprived but by making it false . and for the rest of the privileges though our translators reade [ to whom pertains the adop●ion and the glory , not as mr. sidenham , the adoption of glory ] yet the greek being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which leaves out the verb to be supplied , it is clear that it should be read whose were the adoption and glory , and the covenants and the giving the law , and the service and the promises , and v. . whose were the fathers , as well as it is read from whom christ came , though the verb be not expressed , sith otherwise the speech were not true . for to the present israelites did not pertain the adoption , as if they then living were adopted or to be adopted children of god : for the apostle bemoans their rejection and cutting off . and the glory being meant of the ark , sam. . . or the cloud that covered it ezek. . . long before lost , and the covenants meant of the two tables of the law , being lost , and the giving the law , to wit , the judicial laws being an act cannot be expounded but of the time past , and so the service , to wit , the ceremonial worship now christ was come was no privilege to the present jews , but a heavy yoke , yet it was a great privilege to their ancestours , and the verb is to be read in the praeter-tense , and in like manner the promises were the israelites , that is , they had them first given to them , and had the benefit of them , and accordingly it is to be expounded thus , whose , that is , to which israelites were the promises fi●st made , and they injoyed the benefit of them the thing then that afflicted paul was , not that the present jews were to be cut off from those privileges , but that the people who had formerly so great tokens of gods peculiar respect to them should not be broken off from the olive-tree , rejected from being gods people , and hardned in unbelief . mr. sidenham thinks this text a weapon whose edg● is turned against these that count it their own . . saith he , the apostle is sadly troubled for his kinsmen after the flesh , for their rejection ; his reason is , because of the covenant and the promises made to them , because they were the natural seed of abraham ; which holds forth that the promises and privileges of the covenant were indefinitely to all the israelites . answer . it is true , the apostle was sadly troubled for the jews rejection , but rhe reason given is such as is scarce competent to a sober minde . for the reason , as he makes it , must either refer to his trouble or their rejection . if it refer to pauls trouble , the sense is , that paul was troubled because of the covenant , &c. but this should be a matter of rejoycing to him , not of trouble , unless he were troubled that god brake his covenant with them , because they were the natural seed of abraham ; but sure god never brake his covenant with them for that reason , nor is it to be imputed to god without imputing unfaithfulness to him , which were blasphemy to affirm . if it be referred to the jews rejection , then the sense is , they were rejected because of the covenant , &c. but sure they were not rejected because of the covenant made to them , but because of their unbelief in not being stedfast in the covenant , rom. . . there 's the like wit in the illation . for , . how were the promises made indefinitely , and yet to all the israelites ? [ all ] is not an indefinite note but an universal . . what is the meaning of that expression , the privileges of the covenant were made to all ? the making of privileges is somewhat an uncouth phrase . . what were the promises and privileges made to all the israelites , he tells us not , and so the reader is left to guess . . how pauls trouble or the reason given should hold that forth is another riddle which needs an oedipus , if such nonsense scribbling be counted worth ones study to unfold it . . saith he , that it 's a most sad thing to be excluded from the outward and general administration of the covenant . why should paul thus break out in his affections , for the loss of outward privileges , if it were not such a mercy to be under them ? answer . it is i confess a sad thing to be excluded from any mercy of god , much more to be excluded from though but an outward administration of the covenant of grace . but it is a sad thing to me that i finde a teacher of a church pretending so much zeal for truth to vent in print such a ridiculous conceit , as if pauls great sorrow and continual pain in his heart , by reason of that , for the remedy whereof he could wish himself accursed from christ , were for the exclusion from outward privileges , which they might have and yet be damned , and might want and yet be saved . if the outward privilege were circumcision they had it , if baptism they might have it , and yet be damned . and shall we think the apostle so foolish as to be thus troubled for such a loss ? . saith he , the apostle holds forth , that persons may be under the outward administration of the covenant , and yet not get the efficacy of it , vers . . they are not all israel that are of israel ; the covenant was with abraham and his seed , all that were of him ; and yet all were not israel , that is , partakers of the inward life and efficacy of the covenant . an. that which the apostle holds forth is not , as this man dotingly scribles , that persons may be under the outward administration of the covenant , that is , circumcised , &c. and yet no● get the efficacy of it , that is , have the circumcision of the heart , justification and eternal life : for though this be a truth , yet there 's not a word in the apostles answer v. , , . which gives any colour for such a paraphrase , there being no mention of circumcision or any such rite as they call the outward administration of the covenant , nor any words equipollent thereto . for to be of israel is to be descended of jacob by natural generation , as in like manner v. . to be the seed of abraham , and v. . the children of the flesh : nor could such an answer have met with the objection , which was not , if the jews were deprived of the outward administration , how could gods word stand to be a god to abraham and his seed ? but thus , if they were not his people to be justified and saved by christ , how could the word of god stand , gen. . . jer. . , . which seemed to promise they should be his people to be justified and saved by christ ? and therefore to answer , they had the outward administration , though not the inward efficacy is to confirm the objection , which is , that they had not that inward efficacy which the covenant promised : nor doth the apostle deny that those saving mercies were in the promises , nor think the promises salved by alleging that all had outward privileges though not saving mercies ; but by shewing that the saving mercies in those promises were not assured to every natural childe of abraham , or of israel , but to the choice seed distinguished from the rest by promise , and peculiar calling according to election , whether of jews or gentiles , and thereby made the israel of god , v. , , , . and so gods words of promise stands firm to that seed of abraham and israel to whom it was made , though the natural seed of abraham , and israel be rejected from being gods people . it is therefore expresly cross to what the apostle saith v. . which mr. sidenham saith , that the covenant was with abraham and his seed , all that were of him . and that which he saith , and so though they were under the outward dispensation of the covenant , yet god was not mutable , nor his promise , though he rejected them because of their own degeneration ; is directly contrary to the apostles determination that they were rejected meerly out of the absolute liberty of gods will , v. . which the apostle proves in the rejection of esau vers . , , . afore he had done good or evil , yea , afore he was born , and the speech to moses , v. . and the hardening of pharaoh , v. . and indeed if this paraphrase of mr. sidenham were good then the arminian doctrine of conditional reprobation were here expresly taught , that their rejection was because of their own degeneration , and consequently the election of the other , to wit , the gentiles must be , because of their own believing , and gods promise to be a god to them must presuppose their believing as the reason of his promise to them , which is the very dregs of pelagianism founding the difference between the called and rejected in mans will and not gods. what mr. sidenha● saith , that the covenant was made in general with abraham 's seed , to all that came from him , meaning by natural generation , is contrary to the apostles resolution v. , ▪ . and would make god a breaker of his promise , ( which was not of outward privileges , but of saving grace ) and supposes the covenant and the election not commensurate , contrary to the apostle , yea , to mr. sidenhams own words where he summs up the apostles resolution , when he saith , that none are the children of the promise ( to whom the covenant was made ) real saints but those that have the true effects of the covenant in their hearts . and what he saith , to all children of believers the promise visibly belongs to them ●s to abraham and his seed , it 's a piece of non-sense gibberish , such as paedobaptists use , according to their false hypotheses , no whit agreeing either with the promise gen. . , or the apostles determination rom. . , , . so often refelled by me , that it is superfluous to say of it any more now . as for what he adds , but here is nothing at all to demonstrate that infants , because children of the flesh , are not under the promise . i g●ant it , but say , there is enough to demonstrate that the promise of being a god gen. . . is not made to every believers childe , sith it was not made to all abrahams natural seed , but to the elect of them , which is enough for our purpose . mr. sidenhams proceeds to the text gal. . . which he grants not to be meant barely of christ personal , if , saith he , the promises were to christ mystical , then to all the elect as in him , and so to infants as well as grown persons , [ which i grant ] but thus the promise is conveyed under ground as it were , none knows the veins of it , which i also grant , untill the calling shews who were elect , nor do i count it any absurdity to yield it . but , saith he , take the promise to be made to christ , the seed , as the head of a visible church , then still it speaks for us . answer . this is doughty disputing , likely to turn the edg of our weapons against our selves , when the antagonist must yield him what he would have ; and me thinks he should have brought some expositour or some argument for him , and not so pitifully beg what he should prove . to the contrary i urge that by [ christ gal. . . ] is meant either christ personal or christ mystical , or both , and not as the head of a visible church . . that the promises said to be made to abraham 's seed , that is , christ are of the blessing of abraham , which is righteousness and the spirit , gal. . , , . the inheritance v. . life v. . not bare outward privileges . but these things belong onely to christ and his mystical body , not his meer visible church . ergo , they are not the seed there meant . . from the condition or means by which the promise is made good , and that is faith , v. , . but the meer visible church may be without faith , therefore the promise is not made to it . . by the express determination of the apostle v. . know ye therefore , that they which are of faith are the children of abraham , vers . . and if ye be christs ( that is by faith , v. , . ) then are ye abraham 's seed and heirs according to the promise : which a man would think were enough to silence th●se that make the promises to belong to unbelievers as abrahams seed . . the current protestant interpreters of note , such as beza , piscator , perkins , &c. go this way . but mr. sidenham thinks to evince his purpose from v. . where the blessing of abraham is said to come on the gentiles through christ , and this blessing of abraham was not personal , but to him and his seed , this very blessing is come on gentile believers , as on abraham ; therefore it must come on believers of the gentiles and their seed . for it cannot be called abraham , s blessing , except it come on the gentiles according to the substantial terms of abraham 's covenant : now this was the absolute form of abraham 's blessing , i will be a god of th●e and thy seed ; and this very blessing is come on the gentiles through christ , as it came on abraham ; and therefore it must be to believing g●ntiles and their seed ; else it will neither ●e abraham 's bl●ssing in the form nor fa●ness of it ; abraham 's blessing will descend on the gentiles clip● half off , not like it self : and it must needs be a very uncouth saying to all judicious ears , to say , that abraham 's blessing is come on the gentiles by christ , as it was on the jews by abraham , and to exclude half the subjects at once from any right to it ; for so you must , if you cast out the seed of gentile believers . to which i answered , that had not the assembly at westminster , confession of faith , chap. . art . . cited gal. . , . with gen. . , . to prove infant-baptism of a believing parent , i should not have transcribed so much of this arguing . the blessing of abraham must come on the gentiles , saith he , according to the substantial terms of the covenant , gen. . . ergo , on gentile believers and their seed . now what is the blessing of abraham ? and what the substantial terms of the covenant ? and what seed of abraham did it come on ? and how ? . the blessing is plainly expressed v. . . to be justification v. . to be the receiving the promise of the spirit . the same apostle rom. ▪ , . placeth the blessedness of abraham in the imputation of righteousness through faith , beza annot. in gal. . . et spiritus nomine benedictionem aeternae spiritualis vitae intelligo . perkins comment . on gal. . . that the blessing of abraham , that is , righteousness and life everlasting , piscat . schol. in gal. . . ut benedictio ill● abrahae promissa ( de qua supra v. . ) ad gentes perveniret in christo ; quatenus nimirum illae christo inseruntur per fidem , di●son in gal. . . benedictio abrahae , id est , justitia & vita aeterna . . the substantial terms of the covenant gen. . . are thus set down by mr. m. in his sermon , pag. . the substance of the covenant on gods part was to be abraham 's god , and the god of his seed , to be an all-sufficient portion , an all-sufficient reward for him , to give jesus christ to him , and righteousness with him , both of justification , and of sanctification , and of everlasting life . on abraham 's part the substance of the covenant was , to believe in the promised messiah , to walk before god with a perfect heart , to serve god according to his revealed will , to instruct his family , &c. not one that i know that makes the blessing or the substance of the covenant to be an initial seal , visible church-membership and such like meer ecclesiastical privileges . . the seed of abraham to whom the blessing is promised is his spiritual seed , and it onely . diodati annot. on gal. . . of abraham ] namely , promised to abraham , and to his spiritual posterity onely . trapp . comment on gal. . . v. . the promise of the spirit ] that is , the spiritual promise made to abraham , and his spiritual posterity . the text it self ●al . . . know ye therefore that they which are of faith , the same are the children of abraham . . the means is through faith , gal. . . so then they which be of faith are blessed with faithfull abraham , vers . . from which i infer , that he that would conclude from hence that the blessing of abraham comes upon the g●ntiles , fathers and infant-children , and that this is according to the substantial terms of the covenant , gen. . . must hold that all children of gentile believers are elect and believers , and that they are justified as abraham was , which mr. m. and mr. g. disclaim , and indeed is manifestly false being contrary to scripture and experience . but mr. sidenham thinks to infer hence a meer ecclesiastical privilege of right to an initial seal , which is not at all meant gal. . . by the blessing of abraham , nor ever meant by the covenant gen. . . nor would the promise be true , if meant of it ; for many of abrahams seed had no right to circumcision or visible church-membership . surely according to paedobaptists hypotheses all the posterity of abraham by ishmael , the sons of ▪ keturah , esaus were excluded ; and therefore the word of gods promise so expounded had been false . as for mr. sidenhams reasons , there 's no force in them . the first may be retorted , the first is come on gentile believers , as on abraham ; therefore it must not come on believers of the gentiles and their seed also universally , for it came not on abraham and his natural seed universally , nor is it true this very blessing is come on gentile believers as on abraham , for it is come on abraham not simply as a believer , but as a father of believers , not as father of men , but it comes on no gentile as father of believers , but as abrahams childe by faith . the next also may be retorted , if the blessing come on the gentiles according to the substantial terms of abraham 's covenant , then not in a meer outward ecclesiastical privilege , for that is no part of the covenant , gen. . . much less the substantial term of it , it is neither abraham 's blessing in the form nor fatness of it ; yea , if it be meant by abrahams blessing it , is clipt half off not like it self , it 's made an empty thing , a meer outward privilege without salvation , and so is in a manner reduced to nothing , and half the seed of abraham , all the females and many more are excluded from any right to it . for they had no right to the initial seal , to wit , circumcision . and to his question , and to what end should the apostle say , the blessing of abraham , and not the promise or covenant is come to the gentiles , but that he intended it to the gentile believers and their seed , as formerly it came to abraham and his seed ? i answer , he saith , the blessing of abraham ( not the promise or covenant of abraham ) because he in the chapter before mentioned it , and it was the proper eff●ct of christs being made a curse for us , though he after mention the covenant and promise according to which it is bestowed . but that the use of that term of [ the blessing of abraham ] should intimate an outward privilege of an initial seal to gentile believers and their natural seed is such a reason a● i am out of hope ever to understand . me thinks the use of that term vers . . compared with v. , , . doth overthrow the fond conceit of the assembly and mr. sidenham , and is so plain a determination , that the promise of being god to abraham 's seed , is meant onely of true believers of the gentiles , and not their natural seed , that if there were no more texts , it seems enough to me to overthrow their interpretation of gen. . . and the inference they make thence . and in this i commend mr. sidenha●s wit and the assemblies , that they let pass gal. . . without mentioning , finding perhaps that it is expresly contrary to their conceit of gentile believers children being reckoned for abrahams seed . i think it not amiss to add the word of mr. stalham vindic. redempt . against otes , gal. . ▪ . behold here a gospel-blessing comes upon all those who are freed from the legal curse , and if then ▪ the non-elected by this mans doctrine have the one , he must yield the other also ; if freed from the curse they are blessed , justified , and saved ones ; this is worse than non-sense , even impure blasphemy against the truth ▪ which shews all these to be connex to be freed from the curse , to be blessed with abrahams blessing , to be justified and saved , and therefore cannot be interpreted of a meer outward privilege belonging even to believers children who may be , as esau was , non-elect . there 's another text which mr. sidenham takes upon him to turn the edg of it against antipaedobaptists who produce it against paedobaptists , and he speaks thus , but in ga● . . . the apostle ( say they ) describes who are the seed ; if you be christ 's , then you are abraham 's seed , and heirs according to promise ; so that now no children born of believing parents can be the seed ; for they must be christ 's , according to that in v. . we are all the children of god through faith in christ jesus . answer . this text is clear not to prove ( as mr. sidenham represents ou● conclusion ) that now no children born of believing parents can be the seed , but that none of the gentiles are abrahams seed but those who are christs by their ●aith or election , and adoption to be the children of god , for such are all that are christs , and heirs according to the promise . but the children of believing gentiles are many of them not such , nor any of them in that he is the childe of a believing gentile ▪ therefore all the children born of believing parents are not abrahams seed , as paedobaptists suppose . to this mr. sidenham opposeth , . that the claromont bible hath it , if ye be one in christ , then are ye abraham 's seed , and that the apostles endeavour is to take away all difference between jew and gentile , and to hold forth their unity in christ , where there is no distinction as formerly : but now the gentiles being one in christ are abraham 's seed as well as the natural and believing jews . answer . it is granted , that the apostle takes away the difference between gentiles and jews who are in christ , and asserts that now the believing gentiles being one in christ arc abraham 's seed as well as the natural and beli●ving jews . but this makes for our purpose ; for as none of the natural iews but the elect and believing were abrahams spiritual seed , so it is concerning the gentiles , none of them either of their children are abrahams seed in the sense in which the gentiles may be termed abrahams seed but the elect and believing . . saith mr. sidenham , the apostle here hath no intent to shew the distinction of abraham 's seed as the subject of the outward privileges , and administrations of ordinances , but to shew that none are spiritually and really abraham 's seed and heirs of promise , but such as are christ 's , one in him with abraham : for if this should be the distinction of seed as the subject of outward ordinances , it would be as much against professing believers as infants ; for there is a carnal profession as well as a fleshly generation , the former more abominable . answer . i confess it is not the apostles intent to shew the distinction of abraham 's seed as the subject of the outward privileges and administration of ordinances : for neither doth he make there any distinction of abrahams seed , there being in that passage no seed of abraham mentioned but such as are spiritual , nor doth he mention abrahams seed as the subject , meaning the adequate subject of outward ordinances and privileges , there being many that were not abrahams spiritual seed , who might be circumcised , baptized , admitted to the pass-over and lords supper , and at least in some of these many who were might not , though v. , . compared together shew who were wont then to be baptized , to wit , believers , and such as at least in profession put on christ. and i conceive pauls intent was to shew , that none are spiritually and really abraham 's seed and heirs of promise , but such as are christ 's , one in him with abraham ▪ now this manifestly proves the thing we would have , that none of our children are abrahams seed in the gospel-sense according to which the promise gen. . . is to be understood , but elect and true believers , and so not in that covenant , and consequently not by virtue of interest in that covenant baptizable , as paedobaptists would have it . but i know not any who reason thus , none but these who are christ 's are abraham 's seed ; and none are chiist 's but real believers , and therefore none but they must be baptized . for though it is true , that before god none have right to baptism but such , yet sith the minister of baptism cannot distinguish between a believer in reality and one in profession he is without fault in baptizing a believer onely in profession , whom he takes to be a believer in reality . if any say , baptism knows no flesh , the meaning likely is that baptism is not alotted to any for its natural birth though of a believer . so that i need not answer mr. sidenhams arguments to the contrary , sith i do not assert that none but abrahams seed may be baptized . nor is it true , that we have the same ground of charity to act on infants of believers as on grown men . for though infants may be christs , yet we have not the same evidence that they are christs which we have of grown persons , whose words and actions shew that the spirit of god dwels in them . nor would god have us cor. . . to account the children to be holy as visible professours are for the parents faith , but to be legitimate from the lawfulness of their generation . nor can it be proved that any one infant of the most godly person is taken into the same covenant with the parent : nor doth christ 's respect to infants when brought to him give warrant to any to judg better of a believers infant than of a visible professour , or to account of such an infant as baptizable . nor is it true , that a general scripture-assertion , and the ground of an indefinite promise , is more than all our reasons to judg a visible professour christ 's or abraham 's seed , or a subject of baptism ▪ sith the words and actions of such a one do shew more of christs spirit and faith than any speeches of god or promises do of infants now existent , and he that baptizeth a visible professor of faith , proceedeth uppon certain knowledge according to a certain rule of baptizing disciples , which is more to assure the conscience in the doing the will of god , then any charitable judgement or any probable likelyhood of an infants being christs , or in covenant for the present , or certain revelation of the infants election and being in covenant , and so will be a believer hereafter can be to warrant a man to baptize it at this instant . nor is it true that he that baptizeth a visible professor , goes by the purblind eye of his probable judgment . for he baptizeth upon an unerring rule of baptizing manifest disciples , according to an unerring knowledge , that those he baptizeth are such under the gospel ; the jewes are abrahams fleshly seed , though they be not visible professors of faith in christ , no meer gentile visible professor is abrahams seed , nor any true believers natural seed as such , nor doth the covenant make every believer in reallity , or any , except abraham , much less every visible believer a spiritual father . i confess , the spiritual seed of abraham takes its denomination from the covenant ; i mean the future seed , and from their believing the actual , but the natural seed takes not its denomination from the covenant , but abrahams begetting , nor is it true the covenant made with abraham and his natural seed , is renewed in the new testament with believers and their seed , neither formerly nor now are infants of believers non-elect abrahams seed , nor is there in the word of god one passage either in the old or new testament either of those alleaged by master sidenham or any other , i know , wherein infants of believers are visibly owned as we own visible professors . there will be found visible subjects of baptism . though neither infants of believers , nor meer visible professors be abrahams seed . i conclude my animadversions on this chapter of mr. sidenhams with these considerations , that none but elect or true believers of the gentiles are the seed of abraham with whom the covenant gen. . . is made , nor are persons to be baptized for their interest in that covenant , except it be made manifest by their profession of faith , and therefore neither can we say of any infant of a believing gentile that he is in that covenant , nor if we could , were it to be baptized till by profession or other waies , its faith did manifest it to be a disciple of christ. in the . chapter mr. sidenham tells us of a being in covenant according to the purpose of election in gods heart , which i allow , and of being in covenant in the face of the visible church by the persons own visible profession , which i deny not , but for the other sort of being in covenant with god as in a political moral consideration , as in the right of another through a free promise to him and his heirs , it 's a meer figment , there being no such kind of being in covenant in the time of the new testament , nor doth mr. sidenham bring one text of scripture to prove it : and for his reasons they prove it not , . saith he , if men deny an external as well as internal being in covenant , none can administer an external ordinance an outward sign to any , for we must go by external rules in these actings . but this reason is nothing to prove a political moral being in covenant without any act of covenanting by either of the parties in covenant . i deny not , but that all the elect are in covenant with god in his purpose and so infants are in covenant with god by gods promise , eiher to his son when he gave them to him , or at some other time . and i grant that visible professors of faith in christ are in covenant externally by their own act of covenanting , and such may be baptized they being disciples of christ. . nor did i ever say that no ordinance must be administred to these ▪ which are not internally in covenant . . nor do i count it any absurdity to say we may set a seal to a blank ( though i like not the expression ) in this sense a man may lawfully be baptized to whom god hath not promised to be his god. . and i have shewed we have certain evidence of visible professors being in covenant , for we hear their profession and see thei● actions , and their rule by which baptism is to be administred , but of infants we have no evidence of their being in covenant by profession of faith , according to which we are to be baptized , yea we have evidence to the contrary , and their being in covenant according to election is uncertain , and if it were certain , yet till they be actual believers or disciples of christ we have no rule to baptize them by , nor is there a jot brought by mr. sidenham to prove they are in covenant by their parents faith onely in gospel times . nor doth any thing mr. sidenham hath said answer that which he saith is the great question i and we all urge , that if god made the covenant with believers and their seed , they must be all saved , &c. but in stead of answering me poseth me thus , doth god make the covenant of salvation with every visible professor whom they baptize● or with every visible saint . answ. no ; or do they baptize them out of covenant ? answ. yea ; if by being out of covenant be meant , that the covenant of salvation is not made by god to them ; then how come any to fall off and be damned ? answ. none of those god made the covenant of salvation with fall off and be damned , others though baptized rightly and were visible professors , yet fall off and are damned , because the covenant of salvation was never made ●y god to them , or what rule have they to baptize by ? answ. that which is , mat. . . mark . , . acts . , . and . , , . why should it be thought more hanious to set a seal on ( i. e. baptize ) infants , as in the covenant , then on these professors which afterwards prove not to be in covenant . ans. because infants are not disciples of christ , when visible professors are , though they be not in covenant with god by his promise of saving-grace . the being or not being in covenant is not the reason of the baptizing or not baptizing of them , but their being or not being disciples of christ , or do they baptize because that persons are in the covenant ? answ. not because they are in the covenant that is gods covenant to them , but because they covenant to be christs by their own declaration and promise , which is certainly known upon hearing their words and seing their actions , nor is it any trick to evade , but a clear truth , that it is not being in covenant ( by gods promise of saving grace to us ) but being an actual believer , gives right to baptism ; nor doth it follow if the covenant be the ground ( i. e. the object ) of faith , it may well be the ground ( i. e. adequate reason on the baptizer and the baptizeds part ) of an outward privilege i. e. baptism , for the institution is not to baptize men in covenant by gods act of promise , but disciples or persons in covenant by their professing of faith . nor is there danger of separating the covenant from the conveyance of actual priviledge ; for the covenant of it self , till it is fulfilled by the making a person a known disciple of christ , doth not give right to baptism any more then to the lords supper . nor is there reason why infants without faith should now be baptized because they were circumcised , the institution of the one being different from the other , neither do we account simon magus , &c. abrahams spiritual seed , nor deny elect infants to be so , if god doth administer all his graces by covenant , yet not all outward ordinances by the persons interest in it , and if he did , then infants by this reason should have the lords supper as well as baptism . the invisible design of god may be known to us , and is carried on secretly in an outward visible dispensation ▪ and some may be condemned by an outward rule , and yet persons not admitted into or ejected out of the church by their being or not being in covenant through gods act of promise to them , but by their profession and practise we say not , none are to be baptized but real believers , the spiritual seed , nor that none are the spiritual seed but visible believers , nor do we conceive infants no spiritual seed of abraham because no visible believers ; but we deny that an infant of a believer is as visible by promise as a believer by profession . for on the one side no infant is of the visible church barely by gods promise of regeneration , justification , salvation . . because that promise is according to gods election , which is secret , so as that no man can know who are they to whom the promise pertaines , till it appear by some others declaration then the promise or act , an infant can ordinarily perform . . that which makes a thing or person visibly must be something existent in act , for then a thing or person is visibly when it is the object of sense , but sense is onely of singular things actually existent . but persons may have a ptomise afore they are in being , as isaac was in covenant afore he was begotten or born , yet not a visible church-member , therefore an infant is not visible by promise . . on the other side profession makes a person manifestly visible , and therefore mr. sidenhams speech is palpably false , that an infant is as visible by promise , as a believer by profession . sect . xxviii . it is proued from luke . , . and . . john . . rom. . , , , , , , . gal. . , , . and . . rom. . , , . mat. . . that the seed of abraham to whom the promise as evangelical is made , gen. . . are onely true believers or elect persons . to those texts in the foregoing section alleaged to prove that the seed of abraham to whom the promise , gen. . . as it is evangelical belongs , are only true believers or elect persons , which have been vindicated from mr. sidenhams answers , i shall adde some more in the new testament . . in maries song , luke . . it is said , he hath holpen his servant israel , in remembrance of his mercy as he spake to our fathers , to abraham , and to his seed for ever . that seed of abraham is onely meant in the promise , gen. . . as it was evangelical which he hath holpen by christ in remembrance of his mercy ; this is manifest from the text . but they are onely true believers or elect persons . pisc. schol. in luk. . . semini . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est posteritati nempe spirituali , id est electis ; sive sint ex judeis , sive ex gentibus , ut docet apostolas rom. . v. . and ch . . v. . new annot on luke . . to his seed for ever , that is to the faithfull and holy . see gal. . . , , . they only are holpen by christ in remembrance of his mercy , which is confirmed from the words of zacharias , luke . , , , , . , , . wherein the holy covenant and oath god sware to abraham was , that he would grant them that is ( abrahoms seed ) salvation , deliverance , to serve god in holyness and righteousness before him all the daies of their life , the salvation is expressed to be by remission of sins , through the tender mercy of god , whereby the day spring from on high visited them , which shewes , the covenant as it was evangelical , promised not outward privileges but saving graces , which are not promised to any but elect persons , therefore by abrahams seed in the promise , gen. . . as it was evangelical are , meant onely elect or true believers . . it is said of zaccheus , luke . . this day is salvation come to this house , for so much as he also is the son of abraham , for the son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost ; in which words the term [ son of abraham ] is made to infer salvation , and zaccheus in that he was the son of abraham , proved to be one that the son of man came to seek and save which can agree onely to elect persons , therefore the term [ seed of abraham ] equipollent to [ son of abraham ] as evangelically such notes onely elect persons or true believers . piscat . analys . luc. . . electio dei patris significatur v. . his verbis , eo quod ipse quoque filius abrahae est , ubi intelligitur non simpliciter filius secundum carnem , sed filius secumdum promissionem dei , qua promiserat ipsum futurum patrem credentium , schol . filius abrahae , nempe filius secundum promissionem , id est electus , vide , rom. . v. . and . new annot on luke . . is the son of abraham , to be a son of abraham is to be chosen freely , rom. . . to walk in the steps and faith of abraham . rom. . , . and generally to do the good works of abraham , john . . whereby we moy be assured of election to eternal life , rom. . , . pet. . . trap com , in luke . . he also is a son of abraham that is freely elected , rom. . a follower of abrahams faith , rom. . . and a doer of his works , john . . . it is said by our lord christ , john . . if ye were abrahams children ye would do the works of abraham , he granted them ver . . to be abrahams seed by nature , but not the seed of abraham according to the covenant evangelical , because their practise was unlike abrahams . whence i inferre , they onely evangellically are abrahams children or seed even of those who descended from abraham by generation who are like unto abraham in their actions . but such onely are true believers or elect persons , therefore true believers or elect persons onely are abrahams children or seed evangelical . diodati . annot. on john . . children , namely true and lawfull imitators ●f abrahams faith : father of all believers ; wherein consists the true meaning of this name of children of abraham , rom. . . and . , . gal. . . . with our lord christs words accord the words of paul , who doth plainly determine that the seed of abraham to whom the promise , gen. . . that god would be the god of abrahams seed , as it was eavngelical belongs , are believers or elect persons and no other , rom. . , , , , , , . is so plain to prove it that the very reading the words is enough to clear it to a heedfull reader . for therein the apostle doth shew how the promises , gen. . . are true of the gentiles as well as the jewes . in that abraham is considered therein as the father of believers , v. . and the father of circumcision , that is as beza of the circumcised , yet not a father to all of them , nor to them onely , but to those circumcised ones onely , and with them to all other that believe , or walk in the steps of that faith , which our father ( of us believing gentiles ) abraham had being yet uncircumcised , v. . ▪ now if abraham be considered in the promises as evangelical onely as the father of believers of either sort circumcised , or uncircumcised , then the seed of abraham are onely believers or elect persons . and to this purpose doth master dickson paraphrase the words thus . abraham received from god the sign of circumcision to seal the covenant of grace , or the righteousness of faith , which ●e had uncircumcised to that end , that he might be father of uncircumcised believers ▪ and in like manner of circumcised , to wit , who are both sons of the flesh , and sons of the faith of abraham . therefore the righteousness of faith is common to the circumcised , and uncircumcised believers , or them that follow the steps of the faith of abraham not yet circumcised . but abraham is said to be the father of believers , in that he is the first eminent example of faith , and of righteousness imputed by faith , and by his example an author to all that they may believe . beza in his note on rom. . . for as speaking of the uncircumcised , he said not simply that abraham was the father of them all , but of them onely who should believe , he also hath deservedly kept the same distinction in the jewes , because ( as i said before ) it is not simply the apostles purpose to teach abraham to be the father of both the uncircumcised and the circumcised , but also especially by what reason he is the father of both , which is his scope . for to be a child of abraham before god , and to be justifyed by faith cohere , again v. . shewes the same . for the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to abraham , or to his seed through the law , but through the righteousness of faith . i shall use the words of the same authors . dickson thus paraphraseth , v. . he proves abraham to be father not but of believers onely , uncircumcised alike and circumcised , and together addes a third argument . the promise made to abraham and his seed , that he should be heir of the land of canaan in time , and of the world and heaven in truth , came not to him by the law , or by the condition of works , but happened to him by an absolute promise to him already justified by faith , and having the righteousness of faith . therefore his sons are not they which are of the law seeking to wit righteousness by works , but they onely who are by faith , seeking righteousness by faith , that is all and onely believers , circumcised alike and uncircumcised , to whom equally the common righteousness of faith and the inheritance is promised . the argument is of force , for if father abraham be not the heir of the world , nor have righteousness but by faith , certainly none are his sons but believers , who have righteousness by faith , and by righteousness the inheritance . beza annot. ad rom. . . but in these words there is a continuation of the former conclusion , the application of the example of abraham neither to the circumcised , neither to the uncircumcised , otherwise not availing unless two things be shewed : to wit that god made that covenant not with abraham alone , but with his heirs also , and that under the name of his posterity , any who shall believe that covenant like abraham are understood . therefore paul conjoynes the promises of god made to abraham , as it were into one body , and when he had taught all believers whether cicrumcised , or uncircumcised to be abrahams sons , he verily deservedly calls abraham the heir of the world , by the term world understanding all nations , and therein following the lords st●ps . for when the lord had said to abraham that he would be the god of him and his seed , after he expounded what he understood by the term seed ; to wit all the nations of the earth , when he said that it should be , that in him he would vouchsafe them all his grace . the next v. also confirms it , v. . for if they which are of the law be heirs , faith is made void , and the promise made of none effect , which mr. dickson thus paraphraseth , if they which are of the law , or which seek righteousness by works , were the sons of abraham , and heirs of life , and partakers of righteousness , then faith should be made void , and the promise vain : but this is absurd . therefore they which are of the law are not heirs , but alone believers are sons of abraham , and heirs of life and righteousness . the . v. doth yet more plainly express that the seed of abraham to whom the promise , gen. . . as evangelical is made are believers onely . therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace , to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed , not to that onely which is of the law , but to that also which is of the faith of abraham , who is the father of us all . upon which saith mr. dickson with that uery counsel god appointed that the inheritance should be of faith ; that it might agpear to be of grace or by grace . therefore onely and all believers uncircumcised , and circumcised alike , are heirs . the inheritance is of faith and by grace by the counsel of god , that the promise might be sure to all the ●eed , not onely to that which is the seed of abraham by the law of nature and hath faith also , that is the circumcised jewes believing ▪ but also to that seed which is not by the law of nature or the flesh , but onely by the faith of abraham , that is the uncircumcised believing gentiles . therefore , unless suspending the promise of righteousness , and the inheritance upon the condition of the law to be performed , we would make it unsure and uncertain , the whole seed of abraham , or all and onely believers circumcised and uncircumcised , are heirs by faith with father abraham , who according to faith is father of all us believers of jewes and gentiles . beza annot. ad rom. . . paul manifestly devides into two members that which in general he had said of the whole seed of abraham , that is believers both circumcised and uncircumcised , pisc. sch. to all the seed ] that is of abraham , to wit all believers , diodati ▪ to all , namely to the spiritual seed according to the faith , of which god intended to speak in that excellent promise , i will be thy god and of thy seed after the , gen. . , lastly the apostle interprets the promise , gen. . . that abraham should be the father of many nations , thus that the gentiles should be his seed by faith , v. . as it is written , i have made thee a father of many nations , on which master dickson . by force of the divine promise , promising that he should be the father of many nations . abraham embraced for sons all believers to be ingrafted into his seed , and so in vertue of the promise , as it were begat or conceived believers to himself as sons promised . the new annot on rom. . . i have made thee a father , see gen. . . not of those only that should issue from him according to the flesh , but also of those among all nations that by faith should be adopted and received into his spiritual family . . the texts also which are ; gal. . , , ● , and , . are very pregnant to the same purpose , that the seed of abraham to which the promise , gen. . . as evangelical is made , are only true believers , or elect persons . the first of these places is that which is asserted in terms . know ye therefore that they which are of faith the same are the children of abraham , where the speech is equipollent to an exclusive . for having , v. . . told them they must have the spirit , and be abrahams children either by the works of the law or by faith , and determined that they had not the spirit by the works of the law , but by faith , supposing that they who are children have received the spirit as it is , v. . it plainly followes that they only are the children of abraham which are of faith , even as protestant divines conclude from gal. . . that justification is by faith only , because the disjunction being sufficient , justifycation is either by faith , or by works , and works excluded , it followes , we are justified by faith onely . and so mr. dickson conceives that the apostles argument is , gal. . . they onely who are of the faith , or who seek to be justified by faith , and not by works , are the children of abraham , therefore the only reason of justification is by faith . diodati annot. on gal. . . yet you know ( that is to say ) this doctrine is clear and resolved upon amongst christians , that the true children of abraham comprehended in the covenant which god made with him and his posterity are not the carnal jewes , which are borne of him , or joined to him by circumcision , and by professing of their ceremonies ; but all such as according to abrahams example do renounce all confidence in their own proper works , and put it wholly in gods promises and grace in christ ▪ as abraham was made a father , example and paragon of faith , to all those to whom the covenant made with him was to appertain . the like is the determination of mr. perkins ( that i may omit others ) who in his com . on gal. . . saith the promise and election of god makes properly children of abraham , and that the true mark of the child of abraham is to be of the faith of abraham , and that profession of abrahams faith , and descent from isaac are not sufficient to prove men children of abraham without following of his faith . the texts , gal . , . have been considered before , and our inferences vindicated from mr. sidenhams evasions . the other to wit , gal. . . speaks to the same purpose to which the fore alleaged texts do . now we brethren as isa●c was , are children of the promise , that is we of whom the jerusalem which is above is mother , that is as beza annot. adde v. . we who embraced christ , adde v. . he shewes the true sons of abraham are born spiritually by the gospel , adde v. . are children of the promise , that is that seed to which pertaineth that promise , i will be a god to thee and thy seed , out of all which it appears that as the promise , gen. . . i will be a god to thee , and to thy seed after thee was evangelical , it was made only to the elect of god and true believers , and they only are abrahams seed there meant . . i shall next adde the consideration of that text , rom. . ; , . wh●re the apostle speaks thus ; not as though the word of god hath taken none effect . for they are not all israel which are of israel ; neither because they are the seed of abraham are they all children ; but in isaac shall thy seed be called , that is , they which are the children of the flesh , these are not the children of god , but the children of the promise are counted for the seed . i suppose it will not be denyed , that this passage is an answer to an objection occasioned by the intimating of the rejection of the jewes from being gods people , v. . , , , . if any should deny it yet the matter and form of expression , v. . shewes it to be opposed to something which might be objected against what was before implyed . for the speech , the word of god hath not fallen , or not taken effect ; intimates that there was some word of god which seemed to be without effect , or to fall if the jewes were cast off from being gods people . and it appears by the answer that the word of god was some promise concerning israel as , v. . shewes , and abrahams seed as v. . , . shewes . the word of god concerning abrahams seed which might be conceived to fall , appears upon inquisition to have been that , gen. . . either only or chiefly piscat . sch. in rom. . . that word of god , to wit that promise made to abraham , i will be thy god and of thy seed after thee . dickson expos . annaly● . rom. . . the word of god hath fallen , when he said to abraham , i will be thy god and of thy seed , i conceive it needless to adde any more , it being so manifest and so conceived by interpreters of note . hence it appears also that the objection answered by the apostle is this , god promised to be a god to abraham and his seed after him in their generations in an everlasting covenant , therefore if the jewes who are abrahams seed are rejected , the word of god falls . to this the apostle answers . . by denying that every jew who was descended from abraham by natural generation , and so a child of the flesh is meant by the seed there named , who should be the child of god , and so the promise of being god to them is not meant of all abrahams natural posterity . . by asserting that they who are counted for the seed and were children of the p●omise , that is those to whom that evangelical promise , gen. . . belonged , were a peculiar number whether of jews , or gentiles , according to gods own choice and calling distinguished by no other discriminating reason but gods will , as he proves in isaac and ishmael , v. . esau and jacob , v. ▪ , , . and otherwise in that which followes . whence it appears . that the promise , gen. . . was not made to abrahams natural posterity as such , and if so , then it is not made to every child of a believer . . that only the elect whether of jews or gentiles are the seed of abraham to whom the promise , gen. . . is made , and consequently to no other of a beleivers children , but the elect : nor any other in covenant with god by vertue of that promise but they . this to be the apostles determination i confirmed , exam. part . . sect . . by the speeches of beza , twisse , ames , bayn , walaeus , dounam , new annot , ainsworth , pareus , estius ( who though a papist , yet is reputed more solid and right about the the point of grace , then the jesuits are ) and added in my praecursor pag. . the words of mr. rutherford of scotland , and mr. no●ton of new england . to which i have added more testimonies of beza , chamier , and the belgick professors at the synod of dort●n ●n my refutation of dr. savage his position in latin , sect . and because mr. blake seeks so much to possesse people as if i drew this from the jesuits , i will add mr dicsons words on rom. . , . neither doth it follow b●cause the jewes are the seed of abraham according to the flesh , that therefore they are all sons in the scripture sense or the seed promised . for so even the issmaelites should be accounted for ab●ahams seed contrary to scripture , which hath restrained the right of sons to isaac and his family , by saying , in isaac shall thy seed be called . the sons of the flesh are to be distinguished from the elect sons of god , for this god would , when ismael being secluded , he called isaac the seed of abraham , that not all are the elect sons of god , but onely the children of promise ( or whom god determined of grace to make with isaac sons of the faith of abraham ) are the children of god , and that seed to whom the promise is made . dr. owen of perseverance , chap. . sect. . the apostle , rom . calleth the elect the children of the promises , or those to whom the promises to abraham and his seed were made . chap. . sect. the persons to whom this promise ( isai. ● ▪ . ) is made , are called thee and thy seed , that is all those and onely those , with whom god is a god in covenant . god here minds them of his first making of this covenant with abraham & his seed , gen. . . now who are this seed of abrhaam ? not all his carnall posterity , not the whole nation of the jewes . our saviour not onely denies , but also proves by many arguments , that the pharisees and their followers , who doubtless were of the nation of the jewes , and the carnall seed of abraham , were not the children of abraham in this sense , nor his seed , but rather the devils , john. . . , . and the apostle disputes and argues the same case , rom. . , , . and proves undeniably that it is believers only ( whether circumcised or uncircumcised , whether jewes or gentiles ) that are this seed of abraham and heirs of the promise . so plainly , gal. . . know yee therefore that they which are of the faith , are the children of abraham , and then concludes again as the issue of his debate , verse so then they which be of faith , are blessed with faithfull abraham . mr. marshal himselfe in his defence , pag. . saith , secondly by the word [ seed ] was meant the children of the promise , the elect , rom. . ●s mr. bayne , nay arminius himselfe confesses : onely arminius saith , that they were elected upon foresight of their faith . and indeed so far as i discern in the reading of arminius his analysis of the ninth of the romanes the cited remonstrants defence of their opinion at the synod of dort on the first article , mr. john goodwin his late exposition of the ninth to the romans it is agreed , that in the mystical sense the promise gen , . . is determined by the apostle , rom. , , , to belong onely to the elect , though the remonstrants would have them elected upon consideration of believing , and the contra-remonstrants , according to the apostles determination , verse &c. assign no other reason of the election of some & rejection of others , but gods will. all do agree that the apostle determines , that every child of abraham , much lesse of every believer , is not a child of the promse , or the seed of ahraham to whom the promise is made , gen. . . but the elect or true believers , whether jewes or gentiles . . it is proved that the promise gen. . . as it was evangelicall , or as the apostle speaks , gal. . . the covenant 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , fore-confirmed of god unto christ , was not to every believers naturall seed , but to the true believers or elect persons , who are meant by abrahams seed , because it can be true onely of them . for in the evangelical sense to whom god promiseth to be god he promiseth to justifie them , to regenerate them , to raise them up to eternall life , as appears by our saviours own reasoning , luke . , . where he infers from gods avouching himselfe to be the god of abraham , his living to god , & rising from the dead to eternal life , by the apostles inference rom. . . from thence that righteousness is by faith , rom. . , . determining them to be elect people of god , to whom he hath promised to be god , heb. , ▪ &c. but god doth not promise to every believers child , to justifie , regenerate , and raise him to eternal life for if he did promise it he would perform it , to say he makes a promise to any , and to say they have not the efficacie of it , is to make god a lyar , whereas many children of believers are never justified , regenerated , nor shall be raised to eternall life . he performs it to all true believers and elect persons , and to none other , therefore none others are meant there by abrahams seed in the evangelical sense . lastly , the words of john baptist matth . . when he saw many of the pharisees and sadduces come to his baptism saying to them , and think not so say within your selves , we have abraham to our father : for i say unto you that god is able of these stones to raise up children unto abraham , do evince ● that repenting and believing persons though raised by god of stones without naturall generation , are the children of abraham to whom the promise is made , gen. . . . that it was not their naturall descent from abraham without repentance and gospel faith , which did entitle them to gods favour , or to his baptism , and therefore it follows thence , that the children of abraham to whom the promise is , gen . . are onely the elect or true believers . . that to be the child of a believer is not a sufficient title to gods favour , or baptism . to this purpose paraeus com. in matth. . he teacheth also that the promises of god are not tied to fleshly birth , but pertain only to believing & spiritual posterity . for they are not sons of abraham who according to the flesh are of abraham , but who are according to the spirit . piscat . sch. in mat●h . . . his sentence is , although ye come from abraham according to the flesh , yet ye are not therfore those sons of abraham to whom pertains the promise of eternall life made to abraham and his seed : for this belongs to them who imitate abrahams faith and piety . diodati annot. on matth. . and think not , do not dally with your selves to think that because you are issued from abraham according to the flesh , you are in gods favour and free from his judgement : for with him the imitation of abrahams faith and piety is the on●ly thing which demonstrates and causeth to be the children of abraham , and not the corporall generation , rom . . now such children may be brought forth of all nations , yea and out of these stones . neither do you perswade your selves , that by your perdition gods people shall perish : for gods people shall always subsist in these spiritual children of abraham towards whom gods covenant and promises shall be verified . this then is the constant doctrine of the new testament , that the promise gen. . . as evangelicall , is made onely to the elect and true believers , that they onely are abrahams seed spirituall , and so onely in the covenant of grace by gods promise , and therefore if it be true that they onely who are in covenant , which paedobaptists say when they say the seal follows the covenant , are to be baptized , not any one because he is the child of a believer , but the elect and true believers are to be baptized , and so their own argument for infant-baptism overthroweth it . sect . xxix . the allegation of rom. . , , , matth. . , , . to prove that the seed to which the promise gen. . . as evangelicall belongs , are true believers , or the elect onely , is vindicated from mr. blakes answer vindic. foed ▪ ch . . and mr. sidenhams exercit. ch . . to my allegation of rom , . , , . in my examen , part . sect . . mr. blake undertakes to give an answer , vindic. foed , ch . . and first having belied me as borrowing from stapleton the jesuit , and learning to a ●air to follow him , though to my remembrance i never read that passage in him , which he allegeth , nor made any use of his exposition of the epistle to the romans , or any other of his works in that book of mine , he proceeds thus in his scoffing calumniating fashion , like a satyrist rather than a disputant . we have drunk up the protestants poyson , and mr. t. his great care is , to preserve his party by the jesuits antido●● ; be is wholly beholding to them for the receipt . which is mr. blakes manifest calumny , as the quotations in my examen part sect . . in which he might see that i received it from the most eminent protestants , and alleged but one papist , and he no jesuit , but one of the better note , and since , the quotations in the foregoing section do fully prove , and it were easie to produce treble the number if need were . but i find it in vain to endeavour the satis●ying of such eager and through prejudice selfe-blinding antagonists , as mr. blake is , i could ( if i liked such arts as mr. blake useth ) tell mr blake he borrows from the jesuit bellarmin , who against peter martyr saying the promise gen. . , is not universall concerning the children of beleivers , but hath place onely in the predestinate , replies , this is said without proof , for the words of the scripture are absolute , nor is there any mention of predestination in that whole chapter . but mr blake promiseth me square dealing in the examining my argument , and sets down my words at length , and then in stead of answering it , puts divers quaere's to me , yeelding first to me , that the text gen. . . was in that place rom. . , , , brought into question by the apostle . saith he , how bain and ame● come to the name of remonstrants ? i had thought they had been on the party that are called contra-remonstrants ? answer . and so a●so did i , and therefore called them the answerers of arminius , and the cited remonstrants , not remonstrants , as mr. blake not heeding my words suggests , as one not willing to omit any thing whether right or wrong which may render me odious or contemptible . . saith he , where it appears that arminius conceived that the covenant there spoken to was the word of the law and not of promise , i am sure in his analysis on this chapter to the romans ( of which mr. t. should not be ignorant , little lesse than vapouring of his examination of it in oxford apolog. page . ) he spake in another manner , even in mr. t. his own dialect , as though the ones comment had been spit out of the mouth of the other . the sons of the flesh with the apostle ( saith he ) are those who by the works of the law follow after righteousness and salvation . the so●s of the promise are those that seek after righteousness and salvation by faith in christ , and he thus frames the principall syllogism of the apostle for confutation of the jewes arguing from the rejection of the jew●s , gods failing in his promise . if the word of god comprehend onely the sons of the promise , shutting out the sons of the flesh , then it follows that the word of god doth not fail , ●hough the sons of the flesh be rejected : but the word of god comprehends onely the sons of the promise , shutting out the sons of the flesh : therefore the word of god doth not fail though the sons of the flesh be rejected . armin. anal. cap . ad rom. pag. , let any now judge whether he can interpret this of the law and not of the promise . answer . the mention of my examining of arminius his analysis of rom. . is little less than vapouring , as mr blake in his spitefull fashion terms it , but a necessary allegation with modesty to clear my self from his false charge , that i had lately preached this as a gospel ●ruth , that this is one of the promises of the covenant of grace , that god will be the god of beleivers and their seed , and that now i was suddenly otherwise perswaded . if the reader view my words , he wil discern a spirit of malice or waywardness in mr blakes misrepresenting of my actions , . to his quaere i answer , that i have not now arminius his book , to discern whether it was arminius his conceit or not , nor need i prove it was , not alleging it as of my own search , but upon the credit of bain and ames . and i find in that edition i have of bain on ephes . anno . pag. . on vers . . that he saith , that arminius was deceived in this among other things , that the objectors whose objection paul preventeth vers . . do by the word of god conceive the word of the covenant legall , which he refutes as one of those mistakes which did mislead arminius : nor doth mr. blake at all acquit arminius from this mistake which mr. bain charged him with . for mr. bain did not charge him with that mistake in the framing of the apostles principal syllogism for confutation of the jewes arguing from the rejection of the jewes gods failing in his promise , but in the framing the objection v. . as if the jewes objection , that if they were rejected who by the works of the law sought righteousness , then gods word in the legall covenant to take them to be his people who kept the law , did fail : which mr. bain refutes , and shewes , that the objection did arise concerning gods word about their naturall descent , as being israel and abrahams seed , which is the same which i alleged . and the same is the observation of ames concerning the cited remonstrants , animadv . in remonstr . script synod . de praedest . ch . . sect . . where he hath these words , remonstr . autem pro confesso & concesso habent , agi hic de sermone legis , sicut apparet ex illis verbis : si legem moses non violarint ; qui legem sequuntur . sed in textu agitur de sermone promissionis , qui efficax est in populo praecognito ▪ de quo praecip●e glori●bantur judaei , semetipsos abrahae filios , & haer●des promissionis ipsi factae jactitantes , sicut ex pauli responso patet . so that if the reader do conceive that arminius in the words cited by mr. blake , meant by the word of god the word of promise not of the law , yet arminius might conceive the word of god in the objection of the jewes to be the legall covenant or word of the law , in which mr. bain , and i after him , took him to be deceived . . whereas he saith , that arminius speaks in mine own dialect , as though the ones comment had been spit out of the mouth of the other , alleging arminius his words , and af●er his third quaere is , when he affirms , that to be born after the flesh is all one with the apostle with legal justiciaries , apolog. pag. . ( which is arminius his interpretation ) how then can he by that distinction of children of the flesh , and children of the promise , shut out the naturall seed of abraham ? are the n●●urall seed of abraham and legall justiciaries one and the same ? he continues his spitefull language and calumniating course . for . though it is true that apol. pag. . i s●y one born after the flesh●s all one with the apostle as legal justiciaries , yet i limit this speech to the apostles speech , gal. . , &c. and therefore it is a meer calumny that in the explication of rom. , , , i sp●ke in arminius his dialect , as if my comment had been spit out of his mouth . yea it might easily have been deprehended by mr. blake , that i rejected arminius his explication of children of the flesh , and children of the promise , rom. . in that i excepted exam. part . sect . . against this very thing in arminius his exposition , & did recite mr. bains words , who grants , that elsewhere sons of the flesh are put for legal justiciaries , yet denies it of the phrase rom. . . where he proves it notes barely natural descent from abraham , page , . . to this question i answer , . i shut not out the naturall seed of abraham universally from the promise , but only do not include them universally & this i do from the apostles distinction not understood in arminius his sense . to his second question , are the naturall seed of abraham and legall justiciaries one and the same ? i answer , no. for saith mr. blake , if the apostle exclude all the naturall seed of abram from this covenant of god with abraham , ( as mr. t. from stapleton argues ) and take in onely his spiritual seed , how can he be reconciled to himself ? answ. there are divers untruths in this passage : first , it is untrue that i do argue that the apostle excludes all the natural seed of abraham from this covenant of god with abraham . . that i argue this from stapleton , which i am sure is most false , nor would have been said by mr , blake if he had any care to refrain from calumniating me . . nor do i think by mr. blakes own allegation of stapletons wor●s in this chapter , from whence he imagines i borrowed my arguing that stapleton himself did so argue , but mr. blake misreports him also . my assertion is , and if stapleton do agree with me , i like it not the worse , that in the promise gen. . . as it is evangelical assuring regeneration , justification , and life eternall , all the naturall seed of abraham are not included , but grant that many have been and shall be included , yet say , that as they are his naturall seed so they are his spirituall seed by believing or election , and that to the elect onely that promise as evangelicall is made by god , and that this the apostle determines and proves , and no where gainsays . but saith mr. blake , in the words immediatly before this objection , he speaks of the jewes ( as his kinsmen according to the flesh ▪ which were the naturall seed of abraham ) and saith , to them pertain the adoption , the glory , and the covenants , &c. how then can his distinction be interpreted to throw them out of covenant , when in express terms he had affirmed that they were in covenant ? how can he deny that these are children , v. , when he had affirmed that to them pertaineth the adoption v. . answer . if the apostle had affirmed those jewes his kinsmen after the flesh , that they were in covenant , gen. . . and adopted , for whom he sorrowed so much , v. . he had plaid the hypocrite , expressing his sorrow for them as not included in the covenant , who he knew were in it , he had trifled in raising an objection from thence and answering it , yea he had contradicted himself , who v. . saith , all are not israel that are of israel , and v . that because they were the seed of abraham , they were not all children , v. . that the children of the flesh are not the children of god , opposing the children of the promise to the children of the flesh . and it will concern mr. blake to reconcile the apostle to himselfe , if he should mean as mr blake expounds him , nor do i know how he could with any shew of truth affirm these men to be in covenant with god , to be his children who did obstinately oppose christ , being ignorant of the righteousness of god , and seeking to establish their own righteousness , were not subject to the righteousness of god , rom. . . but were broken off for unbelief , rom. . . it is true it is said , whose or of whom are the adoption and the covenants . but doth he say this of the israelites then living whose case he bewailed ? i conceive not , but of their ancestors . for the speeches were not true of them , that of them was christ according to the flesh , , or theirs the giving of the law , yet i deny not it was their honour and priviledge in some sort , that god vouchsafed these things to their ancestors and nation , and it did affect paul much , that the people which were so much dignified by god , should now be rejected . but were it that of those persons it were said , that to them pertained the covenants , and the adoption , yet were it not true which mr. bl. saith , that paul in express terms affirmed that they were in covenant , or were children of god. for if it be true that by the covenants were meant the tables of the covenant , as beza conceives , or the covenants of adoption , in respect of outward legall priviledges , which are onely there mentioned as proper to the jewes , the adoption and covenants might be said to pertain to them , and they neither in covenant , nor children of god evangelically . but of this text i have before spoken , sect. , &c. mt bl adds , wh●ch may be confirmed by abundant other texts of scripture ; ye are the children of the lord your god , deut. . . out of egypt have i called my son , hos. . . it is not meet to take the childrens bread and cast it unto doggs , mat. . : where all that were no● gentiles , all to whom christ was sent are called children : ye are the children of the prophets , and of the covenant which god made with your fathers , acts . . doth the covenant appertain to them , and they stiled the children of the covenant , and yet are they out of covenant ? are they children to whom the adoption pertains , and yet no children ? when mr. t. hath given any fair answer to these quaere's , especially the two last , we shall conceive some probability of truth in his gloss on the apostles words ; in the mean time we cannot but look upon it in full opposition and contradiction to that which the apostle expressly delivers . answ● . non● of all the passages call those brethren of paul whose case he bewaileth verse . children of god , his son , children , children of the prophets and of the covenant . . the speeches being of a people mixt of good and bad , and the speeches being indefinite , may be true if meant of some onely of those people : yea in the apostles sense they cannot be true of all that were not gen●iles , all to whom christ was sent , that they were the children of god. for many are termed by the prophet isai. . the sons of the sorceresse , the seed of the adultresse and the whore , by john baptist , matth. . . generation of vipers , by our lord christ matth. ● . children of hell . . sometimes the term of children is meant as the term righteous is , luke . . of one that is so in reputation though not in truth , as the children of the kingdom , mat. . . must be meant of them that were so in reputation , though not in truth : for had h●y been so in truth they should not be cast out into utter darkness . . by the children of the covenant acts . . is not meant that they were then in the evangelicall covenant as made to th●m : for at that time they had not repented , but were exhorted thereto , v. but they are called the children of the covenant , because they were the posteri●y of those fathers with whom first the covenant was made , as they are called children of the prophets , because th●y were the posteri●y of that people to whom the prophets were first raised and sent , as is shewed before sect. ● . out of which there is a fair answer to mr. blakes riddles without an oedipus , that first the covenants and adoption , rom. . . are not said to pertain to those israelites for whom paul mourned . v. . but to their ancestors . . if they did , yet not in mr. blakes sense , , but in the sense fore-given . . that those israelites for whom paul mourned , rom. . . are not stiled children of the covenant . acts . . nor though i● be true of those for whom paul mourned , is it any thing to mr. blakes purpose , but hath another meaning foregiven . and thus there is a sweet harmony be●ween my gloss and the apostles expressions . mr. bl. next gives his analysis of the apostles words , in which he grants v. . a numerous company by ishmael to be excluded ( who were abrahams seed after the flesh ) which evinceth what i contend for , that gods promise gen. ● . . was not made in any sort to ishmael though he were the child of a beleiver and circumcised , therefore that covenant is not made to every believers naturall child , nor was the reason of circumcising this or that person , taken from the persons interest in the covenant , for ishmael was circumcised though not in covenant . then mr. bl. adds , as then there was a distinction of seed , so also now , one member he had laid down before , viz. israelites according to the flesh rested in all those priviledges there reckoned up , v. , , these they pleaded , the apostle yelds them : and mr. t , ( according to the discovery of these times ) denies them , the second member he after falls upon ; the eternally beloved and chosen of god , and largely amplifies . in these abrahams seed may continue ; though the other be cast off , , to whom yet god hath continued ( in successive generations ) a god in covenant , and continued to them the priviledges of being his people , though now he was upon the rejection of them . answer . i should hardly have thought a sober minded man , much less a man reputed an ancient grave divine , would so slightly have handled such a scripture in which he saith is my triumphing argument , but that i meet with this passage defective in what was to be done , and made up of flirts , falshoods , impertinencies , 〈…〉 opposite to the apostle ▪ it is defective 〈…〉 main things , first , in applying the distinction of the apostle to the 〈◊〉 of the objection ▪ by shewing how the word fa●ls no● , if ●he one sort of seed of abraham be rejected . . in not shewing any invalidity in my deduction of my conclusion thence , that the seed of abraham to whom the promise gen. ● . . as evangelical is made , are onely the elect . his ●●irts are at me , 〈◊〉 denying the israelites according to the discovery of these times , what the apostle yeeld● . falshoods , that the israelites according to the flesh pleaded all those priviledges reckoned up , v , . for they were so far from pleading it as a priviledge , that christ came of them according to the flesh , that they abhorred and accursed him . . that i deny the priviledges which the apostle yeeldeth them . which also are meer impertinenc●es to the solution of the objection , and to the distinction of the apostle , who doth not at all in the expression af children of the flesh mention those priviledges , nor mentions children of the flesh , as importing an investiture into those priviledges , as mr. bl. seems to have conceived , but barely by that term notes their naturall descent from abraham , insomuch that ishmael is meant as a child of the flesh , who was no way vested in those priviledges v. , in stead of telling whether the eternally chosen and beloved of god were the seed meant gen. . . and ●o the word of god f●iled not , he onely tels us , in these the seed of abraham may continue though the other he cast off , which is impertinently and doubtfully exprest , as if there were not a certainty but onely a possibility of the seed of abraham continuing in the eternally beloved and chosen of god. it is in like manner impertinent to the business , to tell what god hath done in successive generations , when the objection is of the inconsiste●cy with his doings and his promises concerning the present generation . lastly , it is directly against the apostle , who opposeth the children of the promise to the cast off , to say , that he hath continued a god in covenant to them whom he hath cast off , and continueth ●o them the priviledges of his pepole though he was upon the rejecting of them . and it is a strange expr●ssion , when there is speech of rejection opposite to eternall love and choice of god , to say , god is now upon the rejection of them , which intimates a beginning of a rejection . but mr. bl. thinks to satisfie all by the words of gomarus , which having set down at large , he then saith , in which we have these three things , . mr. t. his objection wholly solved . . the apostle reconciled to himself . and . the doctrine of covenant holinesse from the apostle fully established , which when mr. t. hath well considered with that which was spoke before ( having the whole current of the scripture against him ) he will have little list to make this one scripture his asylum . to which i answer , first there are many things in the words of gomar●s liable to exception , as ● , that ●e saith , the jewes great priviledges mentioned 〈…〉 objected . but the thing that was objected was not those priviledges , but the word of god concerning israel and abrahams●●ed ●●ed . . that 〈…〉 . that th●se priviledges are attributed by the apostle to the unbelieving jewes . which is not true in the sense he 〈…〉 present unbelie●ing 〈…〉 〈◊〉 attributed by the apostle to the unbelieving jewes by vertue of their outward ●all , because salvation is revealed and offered to them under condition of obedience , and that offer sealed with circumcision ▪ wherein . he saith , the offer of salvation under condition of obedience , was sealed with circumcision but i had thought the thing pedobaptists would have sealed with circumcision ; had not been the offer of savation upon condition of obedience , but the covenant of god , gen. ▪ which is another thing than the offer of salvation which is by men indeed according to the covenant : but it is not the covenant , for that is gods act , and is presupposed to the other . besides , there are some promises at least in the covenant absolute , not upon condition , as the promise of regeneration , in respect of which the covenant cannot be conditional , and therefore the offer and the covenant are not to be confounded , nor do i think pedobaptists will like this , that that offer was sealed with circumcision . besides , there was no offer made to the jewes of salvation under condition of obedience . an offer is made by pre●ching , circumcision was on the eighth day : was there any that pre●ched at circumcision salvation under the condition of obedience to the circumcised , and then circumcised the child to seal that off●r ? nor did the iewes use circumcision to seal the off●r of s●lvation under condition of obedience to christ , but to bind them to keep the law of moses in expectation of righteousness , as appears from acts . . . , . gal. . . rom. , , &c. . nor do i see any truth in that which he saith , that those priviledges are attributed by the apostle to the unbelieving jewes by vertue of their outward call , because salvation is ●●●ealed and offered to them under condition of obedience , and that offer sealed with circumcision . for neither do church-priviledges belong to persons barely by re●son of an outward call , which is but an offer of salvation , no man is accounted a church-member , having right to the seal , as they term it , because salvation is offered without some consent , nor did those priviledges in any sort accrue to the iewes upon an outward call by which salvation was offered to them upon condition of obedience , the proceeding of christ from them , their having abraham , isaac , jacob , for their fathers , their having the law given them , &c. were not upon such an outward call , but gods respect to them , deut . . . it is not true that from thence all israelites are promiscuously called children of the covenant , as acts . . for it is true onely of them that were after the prophets as well as the covenant , sith they are called children of the prophets as well as of the covenant , and neither title is given to them because of the outward call alleaged , but because they were the posterity of those to whom the prophets were sent , and the covenant exhibited . . it is not true that the apostle affirmes that the unbelieving iewes are abrahamites and israelites ; not onely by reason of their birth after the flesh , but also by reason of acceptance of the covenants and promises : for neither is it true they did accept of the covenants and promises , sith they rejected christ to whom the promises were made , gal. . . nor doth the apostle say , they accepted of them , nor at all give that as a reason of their being abrahamites or israelites . yea , they were israelites or adamites antecedentally to some of those recited priviledges . . nor doth the apostle s●y , the fathers and adoption , and covenants , and promises , belong to all the israelites : yea he denies the promises to israel and abrahams seed to belong to every one that is of israel and abrahams seed , v. , , . . nor doth he make any such distinction of promise in respect of the efficacie of it , and collation belonging to some , and tender or offering of the covenant of grace : for neither doth the apostle at all mention the offer of the covenant of grace with condition of duty to be performed , nor doth he make the promise to belong to any who have not the efficacie of it : yea , to say the promise belongs to any , and yet he not have the efficacie , is to make the word of god fall , which the apostle disclaims as a thing by no means to be imputed to god , for thereby he should be charged of unfaithfulness in not keeping his promise . . neither doth the apostle make that answer which gomarus sets down , that though the priviledges v. , , belong to all the israelites , yet all are not therefore true children beca●se the priviledges are attributed to them by reason of their outward call , not by reason of their inward . for the objection was not thu● , to the jewes belong those priviledges , therefore they must be true children and heirs of salvation : but thus , gods promise or covenant was with abraham and his seed to be a god , therefore either god must be a god of the jewes who are abrahams seed , and they his people contrary to what your sorrow intimates , v. or else the word of god hath fallen , now gomarus sets down another objection than that which the apostle answers , and another than that which the apostle makes , as may appear by what i have said before . and for the three things mr blake gathers from gomarus , the first is not true , that my objection is wholy solved : for there is not a word in gomarus that answers this objection , every child of abraham was not a child of the promise gen , , , as the apostle determines , rom. , , . none were his seed to whom the promise as evangelical belongs , but the elect , therefore neither was the covenant gen. , . as evangelical , made to all the naturall children of abraham , not they circumcised because the covenant was made to them , nor is the covenant made with every beleiver by profession , nor hath he right to baptisme by vertue of that title , nor is the covenant made to every true beleivers infant or naturall child , there are none of them abrahams seed but the elect , and therefore all the plea of the paedobaptists from gen. . . to prove the right of every beleivers naturall child to baptism , is manifestly false , going on that supposition which the apostle plainly contradicts . the second thing is frivolous : for there was no contradiction in appearance in the apostles words , which need reconciliation , and therefore gomarus and mr blake have taken upon them an unnecessary task : but the seeming opposition to be reconciled , is between gods performing his word to abrahams seed to be a god to them , and his rejection of them from being his people , which the apostlee doth indeed reconcile righ●ly , but mr blake and gomarus are both mistaken in the thing as hath been d●monstrated . yet this i find , that gomarus with the other four professors of the united belgick provinces ( of whom gomarus is first ) set down the same that i conclude in their iudgement at the synod of dor● about the second article of the remonstrants , in which they say , that to the elect onely the promises are made , is professedly proved by paul rom. , , ▪ for onely the sons of promise are counted for the seed to whom that word of the everlasting possession of the inheritance appertains . so that i have five more suffrages together for me . and for the doctrine of covenant holiness , i confess the apostle establisheth this doctrine , that all the spirituall seed of abraham ▪ to wit , true beleivers , or elect persons , are holy federally as being those to whom god hath covenanted to be god : but mr blakes doctrine of covenant holiness , that gods covenant is to be a god to every beleiver and his seed , which is no other than his naturall seed ( for infants are no otherwayes his seed ) is so far from being established by the apostle , that he determines the contrary , denying that all abrahams children were children of the promise , and proving the elect onely to be his seed to whom the promise gen. . , as it was evangelicall was made by the state of ishmael and isaac , esau and jacob. and for this i am assured that i have the whole current of the scripture for me , and feare not to make this text my asylum , still having considered what mr blake produceth both here and before : the frivolousness of which i hope by divine assistance to shew in that which follows . there is somewhat which mr. blake adds in that chapter in answer to the allegation of matth. . . in which as i shewed before , john baptist rejects their claim to baptism , though abrahams naturall children without repentance and faith , and asserts the onely seed of abraham in covenant to be his spirituall . here to saith mr. blake , i answer , first ▪ when those that were no better then th●se make the same plea , john . ● . we be abrahams seed , and were never in bondage to any , christ yeilds it , v. . i know that ye are abrahams seed ; he allowes all that upon this account they can claim . and for pharisees he doth not barely yeld them to be church members , but also church teachers , matth. . . i reply , christs yeilds they were abrahams naturall seed , but denies them to be abrahams children , verse . that is , to whom the promise evangelicall belongs . the pharisees were not yeilded to be church-members in the christian church , nor were admitted by iohn baptist or christs disciples to baptisme without repentance and faith , nor were they teachers in the christian church , though among the jewes they are said to fit in moses chair . . saith mr. blake , iohn baptist doth not deny what christ yeilds , but lets them know that this place wil not serve to avoyd wrath whilst they live in impenitencie ; notwithstanding that this plea holds , they may perish , and yet gods covenant with abraham hold ; being able of stones to raise up children unto abraham , to make good what in covenant he had said . he no where sayes that they are not intituled to priviledges of ordinances , and thereby interessed in the prerogatives of gods visible people . what paul rom. . , . so largely yelds them , iohn baptist doth not deny them , which also now they had in visible possession . answer . neither iohn baptist , nor christ , nor paul , y●ilded them either to be in the covenant with abraham ( mr. blakes own words : notwithstanding this plea holds , &c. do plainly imply , that gods covenant did not hold with them , and that by them god should not make good what in covenant ●e had said ) or to be gods visible people , or to have right to the priviledge of baptism : but the contrary is declared by them . what mr. blake concludes the chapter with , ●s either but a dictate , that priviledg of ordinance ( meaning of baptism ) is a birth-inheritance , without either proof or shew of proof from prov. . . rom. . . so that i shall trouble the reader with no more of the fopperies of this chapter ▪ onely i desire the reader to observe , that whereas usually paedobaptists grant that by birth a grown man is not intituled to the initial seal without his own profession , mr. blake denies that iohn saith , the viperous pharisees and sadduces , and unbelieving jewes are not in●ituled to priviledges of ordinances and thereby interessed in the prerogatives of gods visible people . but mr. sidenham in his exercit. ch . . takes upon him to refell the plea from matth. . , . gathering that the pretence of being abrahams children , could not give them a right to baptisme ; and if john denied abrahams naturall seed on that account , much more would he the adopted children . but herein i conceive he doth not rightly set down his adversaries collection : for the adopted children of abraham i conceive are no other than beleivers , and surely mr sidenhams adversaries do not imagine that john denied th●m baptism . i for my part remember not my allegation of this text afore the writing of this book . but i find mr. william kay in his baptism without bason thus averring , . that matth. . , . is directly against infant-baptism , in that none but such as have faith and repentance , must think to be baptized . . that the pretence or consequence from circumcision , and being abrahams naturall children , to prove their title to baptism . i add to the covenant evangelicall gen. . . is also condemned , in that he allows them not to think within themselves , we have abraham to our father , which is not meant simply as if they might not in any sort think abraham to be their father ; for christ acknowledgeth it , john . and they might lawfully think that to be so which was so but in some respect , and the respects are intimated in the text , , in respect of baptism to which they come , but as par●us comment . in matth. . . john did not admit them as being unworthy . . in reference to the covenant ▪ gen. . which appears in that he adds , for i say unto you that god is able even of these stones to raise up children to abraham , which can be understood no otherwise than of spirituall children , who are children of the promise , rom. . . which the pharisees are not , . in respect of that which they imagined , that they should be s●cured from wrath to come , v. , in that they had abraham to th●ir father . now what saith mr. sidenham to this ? . that they were of age , and men degenerated from abrahams saith , that he did not refuse them because abraham was their father , or upon that account that abrahams seed had not right to the promise , b●t as onely pretending abraham to be their father , when they walkt contrary to the principles of abrahams faith . answer . 't is true , he did not refuse them because abraham was their father , nor as onely pretending abraham to be their father : nor doth he deny that it was true that they had abraham to their father in respect of naturall generation , but because though they had abraham to their father in respect of naturall generation , yet they did not believe as abraham , nor had right to the promise , which is enough to shew that the children of believers are to be refused and not admitted to baptism till they become believers themselves . . saith mr. sidenham , this is the same as to grown men professing faith , baptized , and then not admitted to the lords supper because carnall and apostate , it ●e said , you have cut off your own right by your contrary actings , which impeach not the truth of this position , that believers and their infants are in covenant , and ought to be judged so untill they manifest the contrary ; or that if they belieued themselves afterwards the promise should not be to them and their children : and that the text holds out no more than this , that when persons are grown up to years , and come to understanding , they must then stand on their right , and looke to make out personall qualifications for new ordinances . answer . , it is not the same : for such a speech should imply a former right now cut off , but john baptists speech disclaims any right they ever had to baptism . . john baptists speech proves , believers children as such are not in the covenant , for abrahams children were not , and that they ought not to be judged so until they manifest faith and repentance , for iohn baptist denied them to be abrahams children in covenant without them , and that the promise is not to their children because they believe ; for the promise was not to abrahams children by naturall generation though he were father of believers , and it proves that none of abrahams children have right to baptisme without fai●h and repentance , and consequently infants no more than grown men . but mr. sidenham yet thinkes to avoid the inference from this text , thus . . this was at the first institution of the ordinance , when baptism was was newly administred : now new institutions require grown persons , and actuall visible bilievers to be the first subjects of them : they could not baptize their children first , for then the parents would be neglected : and the bringing in of a new ordinance requires renewing of speciall acts in those which partake of it . now in the new testament god renewes the covenant of abraham , adds a new initiating seal to it : it was before entail'd in such a line which is cut off , i●'s now of the same nature , onely every one must come in his own person first , as abraham , and enter his own name , and then the promise to him and his seed . thus it was in the former place , where when the jewes came to be baptized , they were exhorted first to repent and be baptized themselves , then the promise is to you and your children . answer . all this scr●bling is at random , and wi●hout any proof , or answer to the objection : it is quite beside the objection , which was not barely from john baptists not baptizing their children , but from the reason of iohn baptists refusing to admit themselves to baptism . so that mr. sidenhams answer is onely to the consectary , infer'd from the conclusion deduced , not to the premises , no nor the first conclusion it self . for the argument is this , if abrahams natural children had not right to baptism without their own faith and repentance . but the antecedent is true , ergo the consequent , and consequently no● infants to be baptized . again , if abrahams children were not in the covenant without fai●h and repentance , neither are ours , for we have no more priviledge for our children then abrahams had : but the antecedent is true , ergo the consequent , and consequently a believers child is not in covenant because a believers child . yet once more , if persons circumcised and descendended from abraham , were not therefore admitted to baptism , then the same thing doth not intitle to baptism which did intitle to circum●ision , nor the command of circumcision a command concerning baptism . but the antecedent is true , ergo the consequent , and consequently infants are not to be baptized because they were to be circumcised . now mr sidenhams answer is to the allegation of john baptists not baptizing infants , not at all to any of these arguments drawn from his refusing the pharisees , though coming to his baptism , and conceiving they might , having abraham to their father . yet what mr. sidenham faith takes away the force of the argument if it had been thus made : those we are not to baptize whom john did not baptize : but iohn did not baptize infants , ergo. yea his answer strengthens the argument : for if johns baptism were at the first institution of baptism , and infants were not baptized , then neither are they to be now . for the first institution is the rule of observing it , as the lord christ himself urgeth concerning marriage , matth. . . and paul concerning the lords supper , cor. ● , . if baptism were a new institution , and did require actuall visible believers as the first subject of it , then it is not all one with circumcision , which admitted infants at the first institution , then such onely are to be baptiz●d except some further institution can be shewed , the institution for infan-circumcision is not sufficient for infant-baptism● , for that was in force as much at the first institution of baptism as after . it is false that they could not baptize their children first , that is , at the first institution , john baptist and the d●sciples of christ might have baptized infants at first as well as abraham circumcis●d them , yea ought to have done it , if paedobaptists say true , that the command of circumcision was the rule in force concerning baptism : nor need the parents be neglected , no not though they had baptized the children first in order of time ; yea the right of the child being contemporary with the paren●s faith , if they say true , they should have been baptized as soon as ever ●he parent was a believer , or the child in covenant . gods covenant with abraham was to him and his seed ; but his covenant was never made to every believer and his seed . in the new testament god renews the covenant wi●h abraham in respect of spirituall blessings , but for the promises domestick or civill ▪ he doth not renew it . he adds to the new covenant the s●al of christs death , whose blood confirmed it , and the initiating seal of his spirit , i know no other initiating seal added to it . it is not true that the ●n●w covenant , or covenent of grace was entail'd before to a certain line , though the covenant with abraham in respect of the civill domistick promises were entail'd to abrahams naturall posterity , and is now cut off : nor is the covenant every way of the same nature with abrahams covenant , nor upon a believers entering his name is the promise to him and his seed , nor is it acts . , . said , that upon their repenting and being baptized themselves , that the promise is to them and their children , but the being of the promise to them and their children , is urged as a consideration fit to move them to repent and be baptizd . he next sets down affirmations , . that no man must be baptized , or receive an ordinance by any fleshly prerogative . answer . then no infant is to be baptized by vertue of birth from a believer , for that is a fleshly prerogative , as the birth of christ was but a fleshly prerogative to david , the virgin mary , though there were an entail of a promise to them of this thing , so is the imagined birth-priviledge of believers infants , and yet there is no promise to retain it to a believers child . . that no person grown up to years of udderstanding , hath right to a sealing ordinance , but upon his own personall qualification . answer . then mr. blake did erre in intituling unbelieving jewes to priviledges of ordinances ▪ and thereby interessing them in the prerogatives of gods visible people . . there is no other right to an infant to baptism , than what a grown person hath . the third affirmation i grant , and the fourth too , if there were any such old priviledges of the promise to be conveyed to those which do really embrace the gospel and their seed . and this grant that those pharisees and sadduces had demonstrated themselves to be onely the children of the flesh , and not of the promise , and that they were excluded , shews the covenant as evangelical not to be made to a believers naturall seed , nor they thereby have right to baptism . sect . xxx . of the meaning of mr. m. his second conclusion , the ambiguitie of which is shewed . i now return to mr. m. whose second conclusion was thus expressed , ever since god gathered a distinct select number out of the world to be his kingdome , citie , houshold in opposition to the rest of the world , which is the kingdome , citie , houshold of satan , he would have the i●fants of all who are taken into covenant with him , to be accounted his , to belong to him , to his church and family , and not to the devils . this conclusion b●ing the main pillar upon which he settles infant-baptism , the antecedent of his euthymem i examined with great di●igence after the exact manner of scholastick writers in their disputes . which dealing of mine being indeed the one●y way to clear truth , and approved by a learned member of the assembly [ mr r.c. of p.c.o. ] and known to be one of the most accurate disputants in his time in oxford , yet mr m. pag. . of his defence , in a most inj●rious though frivolous way , traduce●h as an indirect artifice . to which some answer is given in my apologie sect . . pag ▪ i shall now view the reply he makes : first , he compares my dealing with an unnam'd person in cambridge , whose faculty was to make a clear text dark by his interpretation : whereas my way was the true and onely way to clear his meanin● by distinction , which is by logicians called the light of speech , and in all consideration of things to be first , as keckerm . log syst , part . . lib. . c. sp●aks : no● h●●h mr m. shewed in his defence , that any of those senses of his words which i set down , might not be conceived to be his meaning ; and therefore his complaint of me is ridiculous , and i shall have cause to censure him as a confused dict●t●r rather than an accurate disputer , who doth so indistinctly set down his main conclusion , that an adversary cannot determinely resolve what is the meaning , and so nei●her easily examine his proofs , nor know what to oppose . b●● he tells me he meant it of a visible priviledge , in facie ec●lesiae visibilis , yet he doth not tell what that visible priviledge is . he tells me , that they have their share in foedus externum ; but sets not down what share they have , nor what he means by foedus externum , in which they have share . and after he saith , god would have the children of them who by externall vocation and profession joyn to the church of god even while they are children , to enjoy the same priviledge wi●h them , which hath also ambiguity in it . for whereas there are many priviledges which the parents enjoy , as r. g. to be baptized , to be admitted to the lords supper , perhaps the father to be an elder teaching or ruling , or a deacon in the church , and by ( children ) may be meant persons of ten or twenty years old , and while ▪ they are children may be understood either during their infancy , or during their relation as children to their parents ( which is as long as they are men ) the words may be understood either that they have the same priviledge of admission to the lords supper or church-government , while they are infants , or that they have even in infancy the same priviledge to be baptized that the parent had upon his profession . which last if it were his meanng ( as most likely it was ) then his second conclusion being the same with his antecedent in his euthymem , his argument is an inapt tautology , infants of professors have the same priviledge with the parents to be baptized : ergo they are to be baptized , which is to prove the same by the same : yet this i must needs take to be his meaning , till he shew what other priviledge wi●h their parents children of vi-sible professors have in infancy . then he distinguisheth of the covenant of grace taken largely and strictly , which distinction is shewed before sect. , to have no footing in scripture , and to be inaptly used by mr m. he distinguisheth of jewes some abrahams seed according to the promise , some onely in the face of the visible church , and of being in christ by the mysticall union , and by visible and externall profession which distinction i mislike not though they be not of use here , sith they were not the terms used in his conclusion . he distinguisheth of seals belonging to the covenant , the seal of the spirit , and externall seals . but he nei●her shew●s where the externall seals ( as he calls them ) are tearmed seals of the covenant : nor was the term ( seal of the covenant ) at all used in his conclusion . yea to shew how unskilfully he handles the matter in all these distinctions , he doth not distinguish any of those terms that were in question , and were the predicate in his proposition , to wit , to be accounted gods , to belong to him , to his church and family , and not to the devils . and this piece of unskilfulness is in that which followeth . when therefore i say they are visibly to be reckoned to belong to the covenant with their parents , i mean , look what right a visible professor hath to be received and reputed to belong to the visible church , quà visi●le professor , that right hath his child so to be esteemed . but first , this speech here explained was not in his conclusion in his sermon , these words were not there , they are visibly to be reckoned to belong to the covenant with their parents , but this , they are to be accounted gods , to belong to him , to his church and family , and not to the devils . . were the sense here given the meaning of his conclusion , it would not be true . for if the right belong to the visible professors , quà visible professors , the same right cannot belong to the child except he be a visible professor . for what agrees to any quà talis , as such , agrees universaliter & reciproce , and therefore by this expression , every visible professor is to be received and esteemed , and every one to be so received and esteemed , is a visible professor , which cannot be said with any truth or shew of truth of the infant child of a believer . besides , if this conclusion were good , an infant should have right to be admitted to the lords supper sith the parent hath right thereto as a visible professor . but mr. m. makes a large discourse to prove , that to those to whom the spiritual part of the covenant belongs not , yet there are outward church-privileges which belong to them as they are visible professors . and to prove this he cites , gen. . . deut. . . gal. . . matth. , . acts . . rom. . . rom. . . . iohn . psal. . , . deut. . . iohn . . in answer to which i say , ● , that i grant this speech to be true . . i deny that the texts are pertinent to the purpose of mr. m. who intends this speech of gentile visible professors , whereas the texts are most of them of the privileges peculiar to the jewish people , namely , deut. . . matth. . . acts . . rom. . . rom. . . iohn . . psal. , . deut. . . iohn . . of the other two the former is of those before the flood , who whether they were called sons of god by descent , or profession , or some other way , it is uncertain . the other gal. . . is to be understood of being the sons of god really , and the term [ all ] is to be limited , as v. . by [ ye that are believers ] as the very words shew . for when he saith ye are all the sons of god by faith in christ iesus , it is plain this is meant onely of those who had faith in christ iesus . in all this discourse he doth not shew a text proving the privileges he mentions to belong to the infants of gentile visible professors . certainly some of them cannot be applied ; no , not to the infants of the jewish nation , as v. . that to them were committed the oracles of god , that to them god shewed his word , &c. nor doth mr m. distinctly tell us , which of these , ●or what other outward priviledge it is that belongs to the infants of visible professors , which is the onely thing pertinent to the present business . after this he asserts , that there are some rightly admitted by the church to visible membership who onely partake of the visible priviledges , and undertakes to prove it from rom. . but i have in the first p●rt of this review shewed mr ms , and others mistakes about the ingraffing , rom. . . and proved that it is meant of giving faith according ●o election . yet i grant it true which mr m. asserts in those word , and do take notice that pag. . he acknowledgeth that i grant in my examen pag. . a lawfulness of admitting men into a visible communion upon a visible profession , and that rightly even by a judgement of faith , though their inward holiness be unknown to us . and yet in the next pag. . he tells me , this mistake runs through your whole book , that none are to be reputed to have a visible right to the covenant of grace , but onily such as partake of the saving graces of it . but of this calumny more may be seen in my apologie , sect. . pag. . after all these expressions of his meaning in his conclusion he adds , pag. . this then was and is my meaning when i say , that infants of believers are confederates with their parents , that they have the same visible right to be reputed church-members , as their parents have by being visible professors , and are therefore to be admitted to all such externall priviledges as their infant-age is capable of ; and that the visible church is made up of such visible professors and their children ; that the invisible takes in neither all of the one , nor the other , but some of both . in answer whereto i say , . neither mr m. in his pretended explication keeps the terms of his second conclusion in which the words were not as mr. m. sets them down , that infants of believers are confederates with their parents . nor ( ) do any of the words explain that proposition . far would any that knowes the meaning of words , take this for a right paraphrase ? infants of believers are confederate with their parents , that is ; they have the same visible right , &c. is [ confederate ] all one with [ to have visible right , to be reputed church-members , to be admitted to externall church-priviledges , to be of the visible church ? ] yea would not a grammarian count such a paraphrase to be quite besides the words paraphrased , and the words paraphrased plainer than the paraphrase it self ? sure [ confederate ] is [ being in covenamt together ] and yet in all this paraphrase there is not so much as the term covenant mentioned , much lesse any explication in what covenant , and in what manner , by what act believing parents are in covenant together with their infants . . by this paraphrase we have propositions of one , like so many hydra's heads rising up in the place of one ▪ the first is , that infants of believers have the same visible right to be reputed church-members as their parents have by being visible professors . but this is manifestly false : for if the visible right be by being visible professors , infants cannot have the same visible right but by being visible professors , which to assert of them is all one as to say , the snow is black . the second , [ and are therefore to be admitted to all such externall church-priviledges as their infant age is capable of ] is ambiguous : for the capacity of their infant-age may be understood of capacity from the institution of god ; and so infants of gentile-believers are to be admitted to no externall priviledges sacramentall , for none are appointed for them : or naturall capacity in respect of receiving the sacrament , and then if by the sacrament be meant not onely the outward element , but also the use or signification by it , they have not a naturall capacity of receiving the sacrament of baptism : if onely of the elements they are capable also of the lords supper , as well as baptism . for they may eat and drink bread and wine as well as be washed by baptism . the third proposition is , that the visible church is made up of such visible professors and their children . this is indeed the conclusion of the assembly in their confession of faith , ch . . art . . and they cite to prove it , cor. . . acts . . ezek. . , . rom. . . the impertinency of which is shewed before in the first part of this review , and in that which goes before in this part of this review : of the impertinency of two other texts , to wit , gen. . . gen. . . somewhat is said also before , and more is intended to be decla-in the remainder of this review . the fourth proposition , that the invisible neither takes in all of the one nor the other , but some of both , i grant to be true . after all these mr m adds , i beseech you stand no longer doubtfull of my meaning : i mean of them as i mean of other visible professors , they are taken into covenant both wayes respectively , according as they are elect or not elect ; all of them are in covenant in respect of out-ward priviledges , the elect over & above the outward priviledges , are in covenant with respect to saving graces ; and the same is to be said of visible members both parents and infants under the n. t. in this point of being in covenant as was to be said of visible members in the former administration , whether jewes and their children , or proselytes and their children . answer . here again mr m. explains the term of infants being taken into covenant , which was not in his second conclusion ▪ however i note first , that in respect of saving grace , all the infants of believers are not taken into covenant , but onely the elect . . that when he asserts , that all the infants of visibls professors are taken into covenant in respect of outward priviledges . , he never shewes what those outward priviledges are . . nor any where ●lse that i know , instanceth in any but the initiall seal , which is now no other than baptism , and this then being the antecedent in his enthymeme , his argument is this , all infants of believers are taken into covenant in respect of the outward priviledge of baptism , ergo , they are to be baptized ; which is all one as to say , they are to be baptized , ergo they are to be baptized , unlesse he mean they are taken into covenant de facto , and so his assertion should be , they are already baptized ( wich is false ) and if his inference be , ergo they are to be baptized , his argument is , they are already baptized , ergo they are to be baptised , which were to assert anabaptism . . nor doth mr. m. tell where that covenant is that promiseth the outward church-priviledge of an initiaall seal , nor by whose act they are taken into●covenant , or who takes them into covenant . . if he understand it of the outward covenant , meaning thereby the outward administration , he useth , the word improperly by a trope , and so speaks obscurely in his main conclusion on which his whole dispute r●sts , which is contrary to logick rules , and ●ll right disputation . besides , he doth but trifle thus in his arguings , i●fants of believers are taken into covenan● , that is the outward covenant , that is the outward administration , that is ( now ) baptism , ergo they are to be baptized , which is to prove the same ●y the same . lastly , if that speech of his be true , that in respect of outward priviledges the same is to be said of visible members both parents and infants under the new testament , in this poynt of being in covenant , as was to be said of visible members in the former administration ▪ whether jewes and their children , or proselytes and their children , it is apparent to me that he makes the covenant now and then not onely the same for substance , but also in respect of administrations contrary to his first conclusion . for what are those outward priviledges in respect of which they are the same but outward administrations ? and if so , his speech is in my apprehension professed judaism opposite to the apostles determination in the synod acts . and yet mr. m. tells me he endevours in all this to speak as clearly as he can possibly , which makes me hopeless of any thing but confusedness in his writing , when after i had distinctly opened the various senses of his terms , yet he wilfully declines making answer in which of those senses i should take his words , and when he takes on him to explain his meaning , he takes on him to explain other terms then were in his conclusion , and yet his explications are as dark as his terms which he would explain , and in the upshot his second conclusion can have no other sense consistent with his own hypothesis but such as asserts judaism , or being cōceived to be the antecedent of his enthymeme , is the same with the conclusion of it , which is meerly to trifle , proving the same by the same : which course how unfit it is for him who is to dispute , i leave it to them to judge who know what belongs to scolastick exercise . mr. m. next chargeth me with holding no more promises for believers children in reference to the covenant , then to the children of turks . and yet page . he doth in these words maintain the same which i do . i joyn with you that it is an error to say , that all infants of believers indefinitely are under the saving graces of the covenant , for although i find abundance of promises in the scripture of gods giving saving graces unto the posterity of his people , and that experience teacheth us , that god uses to continue the church in their posterity , and that gods election lies more among their seed then others , yet neither to iew nor gentile was the covenant so made at any time , that the spirituall part and grace of the covenant should be conferred upon them all , which is directly to contradict the usuall plea of pedobaptists , that the covenant of grace is made to every believer and his seed , and particularly the words of the directory , the p●omise is made to believers and their seed ▪ seeing the covenant of grace is made to none but those on whom the spirituall part is conferred , nor can ( without wresting the words from the plain meaning according to the grammar sense ) the spech of the directory be understood of any other promise than saving grace . mr. m. and with him mr. g. vindic. paedob , pag. . charge me , that in my judgement believers children are not actually belonging to the covenant or kingdom of god , but onely in possibility ; that they belong to the kingdome of the devil actually , which calumnies are re●u●ed in my apologie , sect. . next , he speaks thus to me : but say you , to make them actually members of the visible church , is to overthrow the definitions of the visible church , which protestant writers use to give , because they must be all christians by profession . i reply , it overthrowes it not at all , for they all include the infants of such professors , as the visible church among the iewes did include their infants male ( and female too , lest you say that circumcision made them members . ) answer . though protestant divines do hold many of them , that infants belong to the visile church , yet they put them not in their definitions . there are many definitions cited by me in the first part of this review sect. . in which infants are not included , not in that definition of the church ( visible ) which baxter plain scripture proofe , page saith , certainly all divines are agreed , that it is a society of persons separated from the world to god , or called out of the world , &c , not in that of dr. featly dipper dipped , pag. . a true particular visible church is a particular congregation of men professing the true faith , known by the two markes above mentioned , the sincere preaching of the word , and the due administration of the sacraments . norton resp. ad appollon ▪ pag. . immota thesis . idem illud in professione constituit eccl●si●m visibilem , quod internâ suâ naturâ constituit ecclesiam mysticam : i. e. fides usque adeo luculenta est haec veritas ut vel invito bellarmino lib. de eccles ▪ milit . etiam à praecipuorum inter pontificos calamis excidisse videatur . the assembly answer to the reasons of the seven dissenting brethren , pag. . precog . the whole church of christ is but one made up of the collection and aggregation of all who are called by the preaching of the word to professe the faith of christ. mr. m. himself in his sermon at the spittle april ▪ . pag. . ▪ secondly , that part of the church which is upon earth in regard that the very life and being of it , and of all the members of it , lye in internall graces , which cannot be seen , in that respect the church of christ is called an invisible church : but now as the said church and members doe make a profession of their faith and obedience sensibly to the eyes and ears of others , in that respect it is called a visible church : but the visible is not one church and the invisible another , but meerly the same church under severall denominations , the one from their constituting graces , the other from the external profession of them . the church visible of the jewes consisted of the whole nation , and was visible otherwise than the christian , and therefore the definition of the christian church visible is different from that of the jewish church visible , and infants included in the definition of the one are not included in the definition of the other . mr. m. saith , i add also baptisme now ( as well as circumcision of old ) is a re● all though implicite profession of the christian faith . answer . baptism of it self ( i mean dipping in water ) is no reall explicite or implicite profession of faith , but onely when it is done with consent of the baptized to that end : otherwise the indians driven into the water by the spaniards against their wills , should be prof●ssors of the christian faith . the like may be said of circumcision . mr m omitting my next reason , [ that to make infants [ visible church-members , is to make a member of the visible church , to whom the note of a member of the visible church doth not agree ] saith thus to me : but say you , infants are onely passive , and do nothing whereby they may be denominated visible christians . i answer , even as much as the infants of the iewes could do of old , who yet in their dayes were visible members . i reply , it is so ; yet that which made a visible church member in the jewish church , is not enough to make a visible church member in the christian church , which consists not of a whole nation known by circumcision , genealogies , outward policy , national meetings , family dwelling , &c. but of so many persons as are called out of the world by the preaching of the word to professe the faith of christ. mr. m. adds , yea ( say you ) further it will follow , that there may be a v●sible church which consists onely of infants of believers . i answer , no more now than in the time of the iewish church ; it 's possible , but very im●roble , that all the men and women should die and leave onely infants behind them , and it 's far more probable that a church in the anabaptists way may consist onely of hypocrites . answer . it is somewhat more possible , or more probable , there should be onely infants left in a church of a house , town , or village ; than in the church which consists of a numerous nation , as the iewish church did : nor is it unlikely ; ●uch things h●ve happened in sweeping plagues . and if it be farre more probable that a church in the anabaptists way may consist onely of hypocrites , the s●me with more probability may be said of a church gathered in the pedob●●pists way , in which there is of necessi●y so much ignorance in matters of religion , all being admitted church-members afore they know or can know anything of christ. jam sumus ergo pares . but if it be possible , as it is granted , that a church visible of christians may consist only of infants , it wil follow that there may be a visible church of christians in which there is no one professor of the faith , contrary ro the defini●ion of a visible church , that it is a company of professors of faith , and they shal be visible church-members , who neither by themselves or any for them , do any thing which is apparent to the understanding by the meditation of sense , whereby christianity is expressed . the case is not the same of the iewish church and the christian ; for the christian church is any company though but of two or three gathered together in christs name , matth. . . but the iewish church was the whole congregation of israel known otherwise , as h●th been said , than the christian. next , mr m. against these words of mine [ it is also true that we are not to account infants [ of believers ] ( which he omits in repetition ) to belong to god [ before god ] ( which he likewise omits in repetition ) in respect of election [ from eternity ] ( omitted by him ) or promise of grace [ in christ ] ( omitted also ) of present estate of in-being in christ , or future estate by any act of science , or faith without a particular relation : for there is no generall declaration of god , that the infants of present believers indefinitely all or some either are elected to life , or are in the covenant of grace in christ , either in respect of present in-being or future estate , excepts two things - . this makes nothing against that visible church-membership be pleads for . answer . if that visible church-membership he pleads for , arise from the covenant of grace in christ ( as hitherto hath been the plea ) nor can they shew any other ) then they are not visible church-members who have not an estate in that covenant which is the cause of it : for take away the cause and ●he effect ceaseth , and then the visible church-membership of existing infants of present believers is overthrown , sith the cause of it appears not . and if they are not to be accounted by act of faith to belong to god in respect of promise of grace in christ , and the minister is to dispense the seals by a judgment of faith , as mr m. holds in his sermon , pag. , in his defence , pag. . then there being no act of faith concerning existing infants of present believers , they are not to be baptized . . saith mr. m. i retort rhe argument upon your self , and dare boldly affirm , that by this argument no visible church , or all the visible professors of any church , are to be accounted to belong to god either in respect of election from eternity , or promise of grace , or present state of in-being in christ , &c. w●thout a paricular revelation , because there is no declaration of god , that present visible professors are indefinitely all or some either elected to life , or are in the covenant of grace in christ either in respect of present in-being or future estate : look by what distinction you will answer this : for visible professors who are grown men , the same will serve for infants of believers . answ. if mr. m. had put in these words of mine , by any act or science of faith , i should have granted the same might be said of visible professors grown men , which i had said of infants . but this no whit hur●s our tene●t or practice who do not baptize grown persons because by no act of faith , or science we know them to be in the covenant of grace in christ , but because by an act of faith we know christ hath appointed disciples appearing such by heir profession of faith , to be baptized by us , and by an act of science or experience by sense , we know them to be such whom we baptize . concerning whom though we cannot account them elect and in the covenant by an act of science , or faith without a particular revelation , yet we may by an act of certain knowledge mixt of science and prudence from sense of their visible profession know them to be serious , sober , understanding and free professors of christianity , and by an act of faith from christs institution of bapttizing professing disciples , know we ought to baptize them , and upon their profession out of charity , which believeth all things , hopeth all things , cor. . . judge them by an act of opinion elect , and in the covenant of grace in christ. none of all which can be said of existing infants of present believrs , and therfore we ought to pass no judgement on them in this thing , but suspend our judgmen●t , and act of baptizing concerning our selves with that comfortable hope which we have from indefinite promises . next mr m. takes upon him to excuse some speeches of mr. cottons , against which i excepted in my examen , pag ▪ . ● . one was , that the covenant of grace is given to every godly man in his seed . concerning which mr m. tels me , that he takes m. cottons meaning to be , that look as abraham , isaac , and jacob , and the other godly jewes were to their seed in respect of the covenant , that is every godly man to his seed now , except onely in such things wherein these patriarks were of christ , in all other things wherein god promised to be the god of them and types their seed , godly parents may plead it as much for their seed now as , they could then , and what ever in●onveniences or absurdity you can seem to fasten upon mr. cotton , will equally reach to them also . as for example ▪ suppose an israelite should plead this promise for his seed , you 'l demand if he plead it to his seed universally , that 's false , add so of the rest of your inferences , look what satisfying answer an israelite would give you the same would mr. cotton give , and as satisfyingly . answ. mr ms paraphrase of mr. cottons words , is such as no rule of crammar will warrant , the words being so expresse , it ( the covenant of grace ) was given to christ , and in christ to every godly man , gen. . . and in every godly man to his seed : where the same covenant of grace , not an uncertain promise of any thing whatsoever , is said to be given to every godly mans seed , which is said to be given to christ , and to every godly man , and in every godly man , using the same pronounce which was used concerning christ : no● is it said , that it might be pleaded by every godly man , but it was given , which in plain construction is mean● of the same grant which was made to christ , and to a godly man. . nor perhaps would mr cotton have owned this explication of his words . . if he had , they had not been true , for every ▪ godly gentile now cannot plead the same for his seed now , which abraham , isaac and jacob , and some other is●aelites could then , ( because god made such peculiar promises to them , particularly to abraham , g●n . , , , , . in respect of their seed ) ●s he hath made to any be●ieving genti●e now . for much of that he promised then was out of respect , to the future comming of christ from them , which being accomplished , the reason of those promises , and of circumcision and other rites ceaseth . and yet the promises were not then so universally to them and their seed , but that god took himself not ingaged to be the god of many of them , nor ar● gentile-believers seed now abrahams seed till they believe as he did , and therfore in explic●tion of mr. m. there can be no good sa●i●faction so as to verifie mr cottons words . the other speech of mr cotton , that god will have some of every god●y mans seed stand before him for ever , he confesseth is not to be justified , if it be meant in reference to election and everlasting life , tha● every godly man shall have some of his seed infallibly saved , nor doth he think mr cotton meant so : but for his part he thinks he only added to that promise made to jonadabs children , jerem . that god would always beare a mercifull respect unto the posterity of his servants , according to that promise , exo. . . i wil shew mercy to thousands of them that love me and keep my commandements . and that being his scope ( as he thinks it was ) i need not to have kept such a stir about it . ans. the words in the plainest sense they bare , had that sense which mr. m. counts unjustifiable , nor can they be construed in such an indefinite manner as mr. m. conceives , the good promised being no lesse than standing before god for ever : which how ever it allude to ionadabs promise , yet is not to be understood in the sense made to him , nor in any other sense now than that of eternall salvation , that i know , and by his declaration should belong to some of every godly mans seed determinately . so that what ever his scope were , his words were likely to be a stumbling-block to many who are too much taken with his dictates , and the place in which i examined them leading me to it , and both mr. cottons letter to me , acquainting me with his dialogue of the grounds of infant-baptism , of which the supposed interest in the covenant is the chief , and the desire i have to make learned men more cautelous in venting such passages as may occasion error , knowing how luthers unwary speeches were the seed of antinomianism , and other learned mens writings have misled , most divines adhering pertinaciously to leading men , provoking me thereto , i did and still do think it was necessary i should say what i said about those speeches . mr. m. tells me , pag , , you doe but lose time and waste paper in endeavouring to confute what was never asserted by me , viz. that the covenant of saving grace is made to believers and their naturall seede that the infants of believers are so within the covenant of grace as to be elected , and to have all the spirituall privileges of the covenant belong to them . but this he suspects to fasten on him against my own light : from which i cleared my self , apolog. sect. . he then interprets his own words of infants being within the covenant of grace as visible professors are quà visible ( which speech is shewed false before ) they are to be accounted to belong to god as well as their parents , viz. by a visible profession they are made free according to abrahams copy , viz. in a visible priviledge for their posterity but he leaves out those passages which i alledged , saying , the covenant of s●lvation is com● to his hous , that in the first cōclusion it 's said , the covenant is the same , which he means of saving graces , and then saith , and children belong to it , which can demonstrate no other than the same covenant , that is made a part of the gospel preached to abraham . to which i might add , that in his sermon , page . he saith the text not onely shewing that they are within the covenant , but also that a right to baptism is the consequence of being within the covenant , which covenant is made by him the covenant of salvation , pag. and in his defence pag. . we are enquiring after the salvation of them to whom a promise of salvation is made . , and hence infers the salvation of infants ; of believers dying in infancy , which were frivolous if he did not conceive , gen. . . to promise salvation to believers infants : and page . counts it absurd that in a covenant of grace temporall blessings should be ratified by the seal of it . so that either m. m. heeded not his own speeches , or confounded things much different , or said and unsaid the same thing , if that were not his meaning which i conceived . and i must still professe that his setting down first distinctly the identity of the covenant consisting in saving graces , and then affirming infants of believers to belong to it , and not understanding it of the same covenant , hath the shew of juggling tending to deceive not to instruct the reader . there are more speeches produced by me to shew , that if he did speak consonantly to other writers and sayings , he meant as i interpreted his words , two of which he chuseth to vindicate , one the proposition of the directory ; ( the promise is made to belivers and their seed , ) which how frivolously it is interpreted by mr. g. and mr. m. is shewd in my apol. sect. . in my addition to my apol. to mr. bailee , sect. . to which i add , that in the assemblies confession of faith it is said , ch . . art that in the covenant of grace god promiseth to give unto all those that are ordained unto life , his holy spirit , ch . . art . . the principall acts of saving faith are , accepting , receiving , and resting upon christ alone for justification , sanctification , and eternall life , by vertue of the covenant of grace , ch . . art . . the perseverance of the saints depends upon the nature of the covenant of grace . the other speech he would clear , is thus by me expressed ▪ baptism seals onely the promise of saving grace , remission of sins , &c. so in the directory of baptism , that it is the seal of the covenant of grace , of our ingrafting into christ , and of our union with him , of remission of sins , regeneration , adoption , and life eternall : and after , and that the seed and posterity of the faithfull born within the church have by their birth interest in the covenant , and right to the seal of it in the rules of direction in the ordinance octob. . . that the sacraments are seals of the covenant of grace in the blood of christ. and therefore if there be not a promise of saving grace to infants , in vain are they baptized , the seal is put to a blank , as some use to speak . to this saith mr. m. i utterly deny your consequence , that unlesse there be absolute promises of saving grace to infants , the seal is set to a blank : for give me leave but to put the same case ; first for the ●nfants of the jewes , was the seal put to a blank with them , or had they all promises of saving graces ? secondly , let me put the same case in grown men , who make an external visible profession , and thereupon are admit●ed to baptism , can any man say , that all the saving graces of the covenant , or the spirituall part of it is promised to all visible professors ? is it not abundantly known , that in all ages even in the best times , even in the apostles times multitudes were baptized , to whom god yet never gave saving graces , and therefore never promised them ? for had he made a promise , he would have performed it . answer . to the words in my examen ( the seal is put to a blank ) was added , as some speak , which i did to intimate that it was paedobaptists phraseology , not mine , and that they counted this an absurdity , not that i did so . so that my consequence was , it being counted frequently in their writings an absurdity that the seal should be put to a blank , that is , that baptism should be administred to them that had not the promise , and it seals onely the promise of saving grace , if the promise of saving grace belong not to the infants baptized , then in vain are they baptized according to paedobaptists hypothesis , for the seal of the promise is put to them to whom it is confessed the promise is not made . mr. m himselfe in his sermon , pag. . infants are capable of receiving the holy ghost , of union with christ , of adoption , of forgivenesse of sins , of regeneration , of everlasting life , all which things are signified and sealed in the sacrament of baptisme . the covenant then sealed is the covenant of these saving graces , which if it belong not to infants baptized , but another outward covenant , in vain are they baptized , for they have not the covenant which baptisme seals . and that this is the sense of other writers , appeares by the words of ampsing . diolog . eontra anabapt . p. . dico ergo : omnibus fidelibus baptismum competere cum ipsorum semine tam mulieribus quam viris tam infantibus quam adulti● : horum omnium enim se deum fore declarat . deus , his remissionem peccatorum in christi sanguine ; his mentis renovatio●ē per spiritum sanctum ; his vitā aeternam promittit ac regnum coelorum : quare quoque ipsis obsignabitur hac dei gratia . ames . bellarm. enervat . tom . . l. . c. . ch . . protest . circu●cisio à primâ su● institutione habuit promissionem illam annexam quâ nulla est major : ero deus tuus & seminis tui post te . gen. . quam christus ita interpretatur , matth. . ut vitam aeternam illa doceat contineri , & paulus ephes. . . ostendit spem vivam ex illâ pendere . i wil add the words of calvin , epist. . which are in stead of many othe●s , both because of the great eminency of the man , being accounted almost an oracle by many of my antagonists , and because they are full to the present purpose : they are thus in english. this principle is still to be held , that baptism is not conferred on infants that they may be made sons and heirs of god : but because they are already with god reckoned in that place and degree ; he grace of adoption is sealed in their flesh otherwise the anabaptists should rightly keep them from baptism : for unlesse there should agree to them the truth of the outward sign , it would be a meer profanation to call them to the participation of the sign it selfe . moreover , if any deny baptism to them , our answer is ready , that they are already of the flock of christ , and of the family of god , because the covenant of salvation which god maketh with believers , is common also to the sons , as also the words sound , i will be thy god and of thy seed after thee , gen . . unlesse this promse went before , by which god adopteth the children of believers not yet born ▪ it is certain baptism is ill bestowed on them . which words do plainly express the covenant of salvation which is made by god with believers , is common to the sons , that so it is meant , gen. . , that with god they are afore baptism reckoned in the place and degree of sons and heirs of god , who adopteth them not yet born , that unlesse the truth of the outward sign ( that is according to mr. ms. adoption , regeneration , remission of sins , &c. ) did agree to them , it were profanation to call infants of believers to the participation of the sign , and anabaptists should rightly keep them from baptism . therefore calvin thought the covenant of saving grace gen. . . made by god to believers infan●s ( which mr. m. disclaism ) and otherwise infant-baptism is profanation , and it is rightly opposed . yea , the shifts that are used to free their doctrine of infants interest in the covenant , and the sealing of it from the difficulty of verefying it against the exceptions before alledged , do all seem to suppose the covenant in which infants have interest , is the covenant of saving grace . as when mr. baxters plain scripture , &c. pag. . will have baptisme seal onely the conditionall promise mr. philips vind . pag. . expresseth the sealing by offering . mr. davenport's confess . of faith , p . maketh the benefits of the covenant not to be offered in the sacraments , but to be exhibited onely to true believers . mr. cotton's grounds of bapt. pag. , the covenant of grace doth not give them saving grace at all , but onely offereth it , and seals what it offereth . dr homes , that the administration of the covenant of grace , belongs to believers children though not the efficacie . dr. twisse , that infants are in the covenant of grace in the judgement of charity , and that baptism seals regeneration , &c. not conferred , but to be conferred . dr. th goodwin , that they are to be judged in the covenant of grace by parcels though not all in the lump , yet all make the promise , i will be the god of thy seed , applied to infants of believers● contain the promise of saving grace , and therefore i had great reason to conceive mr. m. so meant his second conclusion . as for the two cases he puts , i neither grant all the infants of the jewes , nor visible christian professors adult had all saving graces who were circumcised or rightly baptized by the apostles , nor do i say they were sealed with the seal of the covenant , it 's the pedobaptists expression not mine , except where i use the term to express their mind ▪ nor do i count it an absurdity to say the seal was and is to be put to a blank , that is , that those should be baptized to whom the promise of saving grace is not made , when i speak after mine own mind . but in the place of my examen pag. . in which i alleged that as an absurdity , that the seal should be put to a blank , it was not because i took it so to be , but because the paedobaptists so count it , as mr. calvins words before recited shew . sect . xxxi , of the novelty and vanity of mr. marshals and others doctrine about sacraments , being seals of the covenant , and the severall sealings of them . but mr. m. desires me a little to consider the nature of a sacrament in what sense it is a seal , and he te●s me , that in every sacrament the truth of the covenant in it self , and all the promises of it are sealed to be yea and amen ; iesus christ became a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made unto the fathers , and so to every one who is admitted to partake of baptism according to the rule which god hath given to his church to administer the sacrament , there is sealed the truth of all the promises of the gospel , that they are all true in christ , and that whoever partakes of christ , shall partake of all these saving promises , this is sealed absolutely in bapiism . answer . mr m. would have me to consider the nature of a sacrament , in what sense it is a seal , and i am very willing so to do , as knowing that as mr. m. imagines that i am mislead for want of considering thereof , so i am sure mr. m. and other paedobaptists are both mistaken , and do abuse others in this point , by reason of their inconsideratenass , or superficial consideration of this thing . the word sacrament is a latin word in profane authors signifying an oath made by a souldier to his generall ; in ecclesiastick writers it is applied to all the mysteries of religion , and it is used most by the african writers , tertullian , augustine &c. as the word mystery is by the greeks , chrysostome cyril , &c. chamier paustrat . cath tom , . l. . c. . sect. . saepe jam dictum latissimam fuisse olim saramenti significationem : serò tandem contractam in angustos istos terminos quos hodie vix migrat : quod diligenter attendendum . certè sacramenti definitionem nullam est invenire ante augustinum , qui suo exemplo posteris praiit , deinde augustini definitione , &c. whence i inferre , that as the term sacrament , so the definition of a sacrament is but a novelty , and possibly the great contentions about the number of the sacraments , some making seven , some three , most protestants two onely , would be lessened , if moderate learned men had the handling of it . i confesse that sundry texts of scripture do plainly shew the two rites of baptism and the lords supper to be the chief rites of the church , as cor. , , , , . & , . eph. , . mark . . cor. . , . & . , &c. yet that the scripture either calls these sacraments , or sets down one generall nature of them in a certain definition of them , cannot be demonstrated . they are certain rites appointed for certain vses according to certain rules ; but such a nature or essence genericall as distinguisheth them from all other rites , as laying on of hands , &c. denied to be sacraments i find not in scripture . divines elder and later , have framed their definitions according to their own conceits . after augustines time that definition was commonly received in schools , that a sacrament is a visible sign of an invisible grace : yet the ancients did rent such speeches as occasioned the opinion commonly received in schools afore the reformation by luther and zuinglius , that they did conferre gratiam ex opere operato , give grace by the ●a●e outward use of them . zuinglius denying them to be any more than signs , the lutherans denying that they give grace by the bare use of them without the concurrence of faith , to which the lutherans ascribe all the efficacie ; the papists object the baptizing of infants who did not believe , used by them all : whereupon the opposers of infant-baptisme , falsly termed anabaptists , proved infant-baptism inconsistent with their own doctrine . i wil set down mr. bedfords words in his epistle to mr. baxter , printed in the friendly accommodation between them , pag. . the anabaptists took occasion from that position of luther , no faith no baptism . coetaneous with him was zuinglius and others , who to overthrow the reall presence , insisted upon it ●hat sacraments were but signs for representation ; and when that doctrin was once broached ▪ the anabaptists could easily make their advantage of it . to answer whom the lutherans maintain , that by baptism , or before they are made believers , as the words of the lutherans in the conference at mont●elgard , cited by me in my examen part . sect . , p. . shew , osiander epist. histor. eccl. cent. . l. . c. . pag· . cum autem baptismus ●it lavacrum regenerationis ( teste paulo ) sentimus nos deum dare fidem infantibus vel ante baptismum ad preces parentum & ecclesiae , vel in ipso actu baptismi & regenerationis , quae si●e fide esse non potest . and to this opinion did many in england warp , when the face of the church of england became ceremonious , and tended to symbolizing with the lutheran protestants , or with the more moderate not jesuited papists in the time of the late prelates potency , as may be seen by the passages cited by me in examen part . ● ▪ sect. . pag. . and by the printed writings of dr. davenant , dr. ward , mr , thomas bedford , which have been refuted by mr. gataker and mr. baxter , nor is it likely but still the same mind is in mr. bedford , notwithstanding the late synectism , or rather clawing of one another which hath been between him and mr. baxter in their painted frindly accommodation . in which mr. cranfords epistle hath these words to mr. bedford , brother you know my mind , that i conceive the ground of anabaptisme to have been the erroneus doctrine , de nudis signis , as is ●leare in the ecclesiasticall stories of old , and most arguings of anabaptists . which shewes they fear infants baptim will not be maintained without this doctrine of giving by baptism to the elect at least initiall seminall regerating grace reall or relative . but mr. baxter thinks otherrwise , that that doctrine will increase anabaptism , leaving them to their severall fancies , i proceed . mr. calvin , and w●th him many others ▪ take another course to avoyd extreams , neither making baptism a naked sign , which is imputed to zuinglius , nor ascribing to it the giving of grace by the work wrought , with the papists , nor holding such initiall seminall regeneration or seed of faith at baptism , given at least to the elect , as lutherans and others ( which perhaps will be found as much as the papists ascribe to it ) but ascribing to baptism and the lords supper , not onely signification , but also obsignation , and so making this the generall nature of sacraments to be seals of the covenant of grace , which they say is made to infants of believers , though they want not faith at or before baptism ; and from this promise they desire a title to the baptism of infants of believers , as is shewed out of calvin above . but . there is much ambiguity in their determinations about the covenant of grace what it is , and what it contains , and in what sense it belongs ●o infants of believers as such , and what believers infants it belongs ●o , and how baptism seals it . so that in their speeches there is much equivocation , and frequent saying and unsaying , as chiefly about the promise , gen. . . i will be thy god and the god of thy seed after thee : which is one way expounded in their commentaries on rom. . , , and elsewhere , as meant of saving graces , and applied onely to the elect and true believers in their disputes against arminius : but elsewhere expounded of every gentile visible professor of faith in christ , and his naturall seed , as if thereby the outward privileges of visible church membership , and initiall seal were promised and applied to all infants of believers , whether elect or not in their disputes against anabaptists , as may be perceived by this and other writings published by me . . the objection still holds , how can baptism seal to an infant ? every seal is a sign , though every sign be not a seal ; but baptism is no sign to an infant , sith it signifies nothing to it at the time of baptism , because the infant hath not understanding to perceive the use of it ; and when the infant comes to understanding there 's no print of baptism to represent anything to the person baptized some years before . if the person know anything of it , it is by report , which is no visible sign , but audible to the baptized . . a a seal is an assuring sign to the eye of what is promised to the eare : but baptism assures nothing to an infant without faith , therefore it seals nothing without faith ▪ and thus in mr perkins his exposition of the fifth principle of his catechism . heretofore we were taught , a sacrament is a sign to represent , a seal to confirm , an instrument to convey christ and all his benefits to them that do believe in him . faith therefore was a necessary prerequisite in the person to whom the sacrament was a seal of the covenant of grace , which infants wanting it is no seal to them , and consequently no sacrament , as mr. gataker argues in another case , discep . de bapt . inf . vi & effic . pag. . ●f it be a seal of the essence of a sacrament . the main if not the onely texts whence they ●etch this doctrine of making the nature of sacraments to be seals of the covenant of grace ▪ are rom. . . gen. . , , . in the former it is said , abraham received the sign of circumcision a seal of the righteousness of faith which he had yet being uncircumcised ; and in the other circumcision is termed the covenant ▪ and token of the covenant . whence [ the seal of the covenant of grace ] is either made the definition of a sacrament in generall , or at least the genus of it , and in the writings of paedobaptists ●●●ls of the covenant and sacraments are used as terms of the same signification . i● the confession of faith of the assembly , chap. . art . . sacraments are holy signs and seals of the covenant of grace , and they cite but two texts for it , rom. . . gen. . . yea , in the ordinance of parliament octob. ▪ . about rules concerning examining persons to be admited to the lords supper , this is one principle which every one who is admitted to the lords supper , is required to give account of , that sacraments are seals of the covenant of grace in the blood of christ : so that in effect it is made as one of the first credenda , or articles of faith necessary for all to know . on the contrary , i have seen a little book in english of one mr. jackson , in which are nineteen arguments to prove circumcision no seal of the covenant of grace . for my part , as i express my self in my examen , pag. . i should not st●ck to yeild that the rites of the new testament called sacraments , may be called seals of the covenant of grace , being ●ightly expounded in this sense , that they sh●w forth christs death , and thereby to the true believer , the benefits of the covenant of grace are assured : yet considering how writers make this the very genus in the definition of them , and of their nature and essence , and thence inferre duties and draw arguments to determine cases of conscience about the use of sacraments as they are called , and make it a necessary point to be acknowledged by all , i reject it , and except against this use of that term for these reasons . first , because this use of that term is not in or from the holy scripture , that term seal of the covenant of grace , is not expressly in the holy scripture , i suppose will not be denied : if it be , let it be shewed where . though the term seal , and the true token of the covenant , be ascribed to circumcision , rom. . gen. . . yet is not the term seal of the covenant of grace , applied to any sacrament , no not to circumcision . nor is the term seal of the righteousness of faith , rom. . . of the same sense with the term seal of the covenant of grace . for the seale of the covenant of grace in the ordinary acception , is as much as an assuring sign or mean of the grace of the covenant to be bestowed , rom. . . it is said , that abraham received the sign of circumcision , a seal of the righteousness of faith , which he had being yet uncircumcised , and therefore it was rather a seal of certification of what he had , than a prediction or promise what he should have . mr. baxter against mr. blake , pag. . saith truly , that circumcision was the seal of the righteousness of faith , even a justifying faith already in being , rom. . , . the new england elders in their answer to the third and fourth of the nine positions , pag. . say truly thus , the scope of the apostle in that place , rom. , is not to def●ne a sacrament , nor to shew what is the adequate subject of the sacrament , but to prove by the example of abraham that a sinner is justified before god , not by works but by faith ( thus ) as abraham the father of the faitfull was justified before god , so must his seed be , that in all believers whether iewes or gentiles , circumcised or uncircumcised , for therefore abraham received circumcision which belonged to the iewes , to confirm the righteousness which he had before , even whilst he was uncircumcised , that he might be the father of both . and to speak truth , to conceive that circumcision there is made the seal of the covenant of grace , that is , that god would be the god of abraham and his seed for the future , sanctifying , justifying , saving him and them , ●is indeed to evacuate the force of the apostles argument , which is , that righteousness is not appropriated to the lawes by the law , but common to the gentiles with them by faith , because abrahams circumcision sealed to him the righteousness of faith , which he had before he was circumcised . nor do i see that which camier . paust . cath. tom . . l. . c. . sect. . saith , doth prove that circumcision rom. . . is meant of a seal of a promise , because gen. . in the institution it was termed a token of the covenant , for the apostle , rom. . mentions not what god appointed circumcision to be to every circumcised person , but what peculiar use abrahrms circumcision had to him and all believers though uncircumcised . and though it is true , that righteousness of faith supposeth a word of god , or a promise or covenant of grace , yet ro . . the citcumcision there mentioned is said to seal not a promise of something future , but something past and already had many years before , gen. . . but were it granted , that ci●cumcision there sealed the promise to come , to wit , that part of the covenant , gen. . . thou shalt be a father of many nations , and that v . and i will establish my covenant between me and thee , and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant to bee a god unto thee and thy seed after thee , or that gen. . . so shall thy seed be , mentioned rom. . , . and so did assure a future estate to others as well as an estate already ob●ained to abraham , yet this is ascribed in that place to no ones circumcision but abrahams . for . the occasion and scope of the passage shew it is meant of abrahams circumcision , it being alleged to prove , that gentiles were to be justified by faith though uncircumcised , because abraham was justified by faith afore circumcision , and his circumcision after did but seal ( not convey ) the righteousness of faith we had before . . the expression [ he received ] standing in opposition to [ yet being uncircumcised ] shewes that the receiving of the seal of circumcision was in his own person . . the end of receiving it sh●wes it more plainly : for it was , that he might be the father of them that believe . but this was the end onely of abrahams personall circumcision : neither ishmaels , nor isaacks , nor any others personall circumcision were , that abraham might be the father of them that believe , but onely abrahams . . the time exactly noted of his believing , and imputation of right●ousness to him , distinguished from the time of his receiving circumcision shew plainly that it was the same person who had the one and the other , and the receiving it not as a command to execute it upon others , but as a sign and seal to himself , and all believers whether circumcised or uncircumcised , evidently shew it is spoken rom . . of abrahams personall circumcision and of no others . as for gen. . . it is true circumcision is termed the covenant , and a token of the covenant : but it is not said of that promise onely , v ▪ . nor of that promise in the gospel sense , and therefore it cannot there be proved to be a token or seal of the covenant of grace ; but it followeth that rom. . . gen. , . , are impertinently alledged by the assembly to prove this proposition , sacraments are holy signs and seals of the covenant of grace . yea the end of circumcision was conceived generally by the jewes , and so used to bind men to observe the law of moses for righteousness . and thus they taught who are mentioned acts . . except ye be circumcised after the manne● of moses yee cannot be saved . and v. . that it was needfull to circumcise them , and to command them to keep the law of moses , acts . ▪ . thou seest brother how many thousands of jewes there are which believe , and they are all zealous of the law , and they are informed of thee , that thou teachest all the jewes which are among the gentiles , to forsake moses , saying , that they ought not to circumcise their children , neither to walk after the customes , and the apostle gal. . , , saith , behold i paul say to you , that if any of you be circumeised christ shall profit you nothing . for i testifie again to every man that is circumcised , that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. so that circumcision in the ordinary use may seem to have been a seal of the law rather than of the gospel or covenant of grace ; and if your baptism be of the same nature with circumcision , it is so far from being a rite of the gospel , that it rather binds us to observe the law. but fourthly , were it granted that it was in the use of it according to the institutton a seal of the covenant of grace , how doth it follow from thence , that this is the nature of every sacrament ? whence will it be evinced that that is the genus of every sacrament which is not so much as once attributed to them . the passover is counted a sacrament , and we find that it signified the passover over the isralites houses , and sparing their first born , and that it typified christ , cor ▪ . . but this doth not prove that it was a seal of the covenant of grace any more than jon●hs being in the whales belly , which was a type of christs buriall , was a seal of the covenant of grace . i grant we are said to be baptized into christs death , to be buried by baptism into death , rom ▪ ▪ to be buried with him in baptism , and therein to be raised up through the faith of the operation of god who raised him from the dead , col. . , and that they who are baptized into christ , have put on christ , gal. . . and the cup is called the new testament in his blood , cor. . . and therefore i should yelld to call both th●se ordinances signes memorative of christs death in the first place , and by consequence seals of the new testament and its benefit●s , specially the cup in the lords supper . but this doth not prove this is the genus of sacraments , much less of all sacraments . nor doth it any whit justifie the determining of doubts of conscience , and so binding duties on mens consciences concerning meer positive rites without any institution of christ , or apostolicall example , meerly from this devised term , the seal of the covenant , and mal●ing it so necessary to be acknowledged , that it is pressed on persons to be admitted to the lords supper , as it were a necessary article of faith. . this term seal of the covenant , applied to these sacraments , as being of their nature is , so farre as my reading and memory reach , but a novell term , not used till the . century , & in that not used among the learned romanists and lutherans , at least not frequently . i grant the ancients say , men are sealed by baptism , and sometimes by laying on of hands or anointing after baptism . and this sealing is attributed to infant baptism by nazianzen in his fortieth oration . but this sealing was not a confirmation of the covenant of grace , but a confirmation of their faith received in baptism . the ancient greeks call it the seal of faith , as the latins call it the seal of repentance , and the sacrament of faith , in respect of the profession of faith , as grotius annot. on mat. . . observes when he saith , and such were the interrogations of faith either in the first times , or those next the first in respect of which by basil and others , it is called the seal of faith , sealing of faith , of repentance , by tertul. in his book of repentance , and this sealing was not to assure a promise , but to strengthen and keep their faith or vertues . whence as mr. gataker observes in his strictures on dr. davenants epistle , pag. , . they accounted baptism to some not as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a pardoning of sins , but a seal of vertues ; and where nazianzen calls ●t a seal , he expresseth it thus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a seal as keeping and noting dominion . no where do i find any of them use the term seal of the covenant of grace , applied either to sacraments in generall , or to baptism in special . . but were the use of the term seal of the covenant of grace in the scripture , or the writings of the ancients , yet it is against logick to define a sacrament by a seal of the covenant as the genus , and so to make it of its essence . for it is a rule in logick , definitio non fit ex verbis metaphoricis , scheibler top. cap. num . . ita aristot , topic. lib. . c. . sect . . keckerm . syst. logic . lib. . sect . cap. . aristotle saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , every translated speech is doubtfull till reduced to proper , for it may have divers senses . besides , metaphors , or borrowed speeches , may be many , as in this point we may call a sacrament a pledge , as in the common prayer book catechism , or a pawn , earnest , as well as a seal chamier . paust . cath. tom . . l. . c. . sect . . you have also the similitude of a pledge somewhat divers from seals , but nevertheless tending to the same , which we also doe most willingly use . and if we should define a sacrament by a pledge , and from that metaphor infer , that an infant must contract afore it receive the sacrament as a pledge , we might do it with as good reason as they who infer they are to be sealed because the seal followes the covenant . well doth chamier call a seal a similitude , which cannot shew what a sacrament is , but what it is like ; and therefore all metaphors are unfit to shew the quid●●tative conceit of a thing , nor are to be used in definitions except there be want of proper terms , of which there is not in this case . now to define a sacrament by a seale of the covenant , is to define it by a metaphor , neither baptism nor the lords supper are seals in proper acceptation , they make no visible figure or impression on the body , therefore to use the term thus is an abuse , much more when positions and duties are urged on mens consciences from it . i will subjoyn mr. baxters words in his apologie against mr blake , sect. . pag , . some sober men no way inclined to anabaptism , do think that we ought not to call the sacraments seals ; as being a thing not to be proved from the word ; ( for all rom. . ) but i am not of their mind , yet i think it is a metaphor , and to make it the subject of tedious disputations , and to lay too great a stress upon a metaphoricall notion , is the way not to edifie , but to lose our selves . lastly , were all this yielded to mr m. that the term seal of the covenant were the language of the scripture and ancients , and fit enough to express the generall nature of sacraments , yet i conceive it of little moment to the ends to which it is applied . for what is it to seal and not to confer grace , but onely to assure ? and so the use of it is to represent to the mind as a morall instrument . but that is not done to infants , who are not naturally capable to understand the meaning , therefore this term [ seal of the covenant ] beyond . [ sign of grace ] doth not take away the objection of papists , lutherans , or anti-paedobaptists that without giving grace or faith by baptism , it is in vain or without effect to baptize infants . and in like manner the deriving from it paedobaptism is very frivolous . these things will appear by considering what mr m. and others say of the covenant which they say is sealed , and of the sealing , there being little agreement among paedobaptists , whether the inward or outward covenant , the absolute or conditionall be sealed , whether the sealing be absolute or conditionall , to the major , minor , or conclusion . i will examine what i find said by mr m. first , whose words are commended by mr. pry●●● in his suspension suspended , pag. , & c. ●e saith , in every sacrament the truth of the covenant it self , and all the promises of it are sealed to be yea and amen , and this is sealed absolutely in baptism to all that partake of it . but . there 's no scripture that saith so : that rom. . is impertinent : for christ is not called the minister of circumcision because he did administer circumcision to others , that were not true , he circumcised none , but he was a circumcised minister for the truth , he was of the circumcision , that is , a jew not a gentile . nor is it said his circumcision was to confirm the promises of the fathers that they were true ; but that therefore he was a circumcised minister for the truth of god , that the promises of the fathers might be confirmed by his ministring the truth of god in his preaching , or in his accomplishment of what the promises foretold . . nor do i know any act in baptism that hath any aptnesse of it self , or by institution to seal this position , that the covenant of grace and all the promises of it are yea and amen . . yet were it so , this sealing is not to infants , who have no intelligence thereof , and so no confirmation thereof by baptism . . nor doth this sealing any more pertain to the children of believers , than unbelievers , it is but of the truth of the covenant in it self , not of any persons interest in it . . this is as well sealed by the baptism of others , yea by the baptism of any one deceased , most of all by christs baptism , as by each persons own baptism . . this sealing may be not onely to them that are baptized , but to them that deny baptism , yea to infidels , yea to devils , who may and do believe the truth of the covenant it self , and all the promises of it to be yea and amen , and have it sealed as well to them by the baptism of a person as to the baptized , and better than to an infant . but perhaps mr m. helps the matter in the second or third . but as to the second ( saith he ) which is interesse meum , or the receivers interest in that spirituall part of the covenant , that is sealed to no receiver absolutely , but conditionally ; in this particular all sacraments are but signa conditionalia , conditionall seals sealing the spirituall part of the covenant to the receivers upon condition that they perform the spirituall part of the covenant . thus our divines use to answer the papists , thus dr. ames answers to bellarmine , when bellarmine disputing against our doctrines , that sacraments are seals , alledges then they are falsly applied oftentimes ; he answers to bellarmin , sacraments are conditionall seals , and therefore not seals to us but upon condition . answer . the spirituall condition is faith , so ames bell. enerv . tom . . l. . ● . . q. . th . . sacramenta non sunt testimonia completa & absoluta , nisi credentibus . sacraments are not compleat and absolute testimonies but to the believing . now if the sacraments seal onely conditionally , they seal onely this proposition , that he that believeth shall be justified , saved , &c. but this is all one with sealing the truth of the covenant in it self : nor doth this seal the baptized persons interest in the covenant any more than the unbaptizeds ; no more to the infants of believers than of unbelievers , not at all to any till they believe , and so to no infants ordinarily , and if then the baptizing of them must be derived from this interest and sealing of the covenant , either none are to be baptized till they do believe , or all alike are to be baptized . besides , if sacraments be but conditionall signes , or testimonies incompleat , and conditionall till persons believe , then they are but conditionall incompleat sacraments till a person believes , sith to be a sign & seal is of the nature of a sacrament ; and if so , then infants have not a compleat sacrament or absolute , but an incompleat and conditionall baptism , and consequently though the baptizer begin to baptize the infants , yet he cannot say he doth baptize them , but must wait till they be believers , and then he may say he baptizeth them , and gives them a compleat sacrament , and is bound to baptize them when they come to years whom he did wash in infancy , or else he mocks them , which is the mind of christ indeed , that he that believeth should be baptized , and no other , mark . . besides , whether there be any conditionall sealing may be a uqestion . mr. baxter apologie against mr blake , sect. . pag. . speaks of it as a strange thing useless and vain . but this i shall leave till i examine mr. baxters exceptions against me about the condirional covenant and sealing , onely i take notice of his words sect. . pag. , a conditional seal is not a seal till the condition be performed , and infers , that if baptism be a conditionall seal , it is no seal , and consequently no sacrament to an infant untill he doth perform the condition . mr m. adds , now for the third thing the obligation which is put upon the receiver , a bond or tie for him to perform , who is admitted to receive the sacrament , this third i say is also absolute , all circumcised and baptized persons did or do stand absolutely ingaged to perform the conditions required on their part , and therefore all circumcised persons were by the circumcision obliged to keep the law , that is , the legall and typicall administration of the covenant which was then in force , and infants among the rest , are bound to this though they had no understanding of the covenant , or that administration of the covenant when this seal was administred to them . answer . it is true , god required that his covenant should be kept , which is expressed to be , that every man child among the hebrewes should be circumcised , gen , . , . but this was the duty of the parents , not of the infants , who were to be circumcised not to circumcise . and it is true , that all circumcised persons were by the eircumcision obliged to keep the law. and if circumcision sealed this , its sealing of this was the sealing of a command not a promise of god , for they are not obliged to keep gods promise ( that is the work of god alone ) but his precept , so that this sealing is not of the covenant of grace at all : yea by this sealing obliging to keep the whole law , the covenant of works is sealed rather than the covenant of grace , as the apostles speech shews , gal. ▪ , , , and this sealing belongs to all infants and elder persons , for all are tied to perform the condition of the covenant , that is to repent and believe . and if hence be derived a title to baptism , either all are to be baptized because all are obliged to the condition of repentance and faith , or none are to be baptized but penitent & believing persons . to speak the plain truth , the right use of baptism is first to seal to god , testifying our repentance and faith by it , afore god seals to us by it any benefit of the covenant of grace . to conclude , mr. m. hath not yet acquitted himself from putting a seal to a blank , which mr calvin counts a profanation of the sacrament when he baptizeth an infant , who hath neither a promise of spiritual grace from god , nor doth perform the condition of the covenant , nor understand by baptism any thing of the covenant , nor professe any accptance of the covenant , nor is or can be known to have any part in the covenant of grace , nor is there indeed any thing but vanity in this discourse of mr. m. or the paedobaptists doctrine about sacraments being seals of the covenant of grace , and the interest of believers infants therein . sect . xxxii . the exceptions in my examen , part . sect. . against mr ms speeches about the covenant and conditionall sealing , are made good against mr. m. and mr. blake . but that we may the better discern the vanity of paedobaptists conceits about the seal and covenant , i shall enquire a little more into this point , in which i find much jangling and uncertainty among them . to which i conceive my self the more ingaged , because some words of mine in my examen , part . sect. . gave some overture to mr m. and after to mr bl. and mr b. to except much against me about this point . two things which i said in that passage , it seems , are not relished ▪ one , that i said that god seals not to every one that is baptized , but onely to true believers ; the other , that making gods promise in the covenant of grace conditional in this sense , that persons after agnize the covenant , and that to speak of it so as if it were common to the elect and reprobates , and conditionall in this sense , as if god left it to mens liberty to whom he had sealed , to agn●ze or recognize that sealing , or to free themselves if they please , and so nullifie all ; yet so , as to afford them a while the favour and priviledge of being in covenant with him , ●s symbolizing with arminians . to this mr m. replied but little , yet what he saith in his defence , pag. , i shall briefly answer . first , saith he , was not circumcision gods sign and seal , which by his own appointment was applied to all the jewes and proselytes , and their children ? ans. circumcision was appointed by god to be applied to all the jews , & proselytes and their children being males of eight dayes old , and was by his institution a sign of the covenant made with abraham , gen. . abrahams own circumcision in his own person , was , a seal of the righteousness of faith , which he had yet being uncircum●ised , but that god did by circumcision seal ●o every one the righteousness of faith who was rightly circumcised , i find not , nor if i did , should i think it were any thing to prove that god seals the righteousness of faith to every one that is baptized rightly , sith i doe not take circumcision and baptism to be all one , or to have the same use , or that baptism seals in the same manner as circumcision . mr. m. adds , did it ingage god absolutely to every one of them to write his law in their hearts , &c. answer . no. and are not the sacraments signa conditionalia , conditionall signes and seals ? answer . i conceive baptism , according to christs institution , to be a sign of the faith of the baptized , and so it is a sign absolute , and not conditionall , and because the object of that faith is christ dead and risen again , whereby we are justified , and baptisme as fitted to mind the baptized of christs death , but all and resurrection , rom. . , , . col. . . it is in its nature , that is in its right use ▪ apt to seal ▪ that is to assure justification and salvation , pet. . . and so may be termed in its nature a seal aptitudinall , but yet it seals actually to none but those who truly believe , which it doth absolutely in respect of justification , and coditionally in respect of glorification , which is not yet attained , nor to be attained but upon conditition of perseverance : yet it doth not seal that as an uncertain thing because conditionall , for even the condition also is assured by vertue of the death of christ confirming the covenant of grace , or the new testament in his blood . but when i say these things are actually assured by baptism , i do not conceive they are actually sealed by god , not to the true believer without the inward testimony or seal of the spirit , without which god never sealed actually by his word or sacraments these promises of the covenant of grace or the persons interest in them , although both the word of god , the oath of god , the death of christ , the ordinances of baptism and the lords supper , are in themselves , or in their nature aptitudinall seals , that is , apt signs to assure them . the like i say of the lords supper , both which are alike signes and seals , neither to an infant without extraordinary operation . mr m. adds , and did any orthodox divines before your self , charge this to be arminianism , to say that the gospel runs upon conditions ? i confesse it is arminianism to say any thing is conditionall to god , this i never asserted● , but that the gospel is both preached , and by the sacraments sealed to us upon condition of faith , will passe for orthodox doctrine when you and i are dead and gone . answer . i never charged this to be arminianism , that the gospel runs upon conditions , that it is both preached and by the sacraments sealed to us upon condition of faith , according to the explication given . what i count symbolizing with the arminians , i have before declared , to wit , gods conditionall sealing and covenant common to elect and reprobates , as mr m. in his sermon seemed to conceive . to what i said that i did not well understand that god required of the jewes infants to seal in their infancy , i reply saith mr m. but i hope you understand , that the infants were sealed in their infancy , and by this they received not only a priviledge to be accounted as belonging to gods family , but it also obliged them to the severall duties of the covenant , as they grew up to be capable of performing them . answer . i understand the iewes were circumcised in their infancy , but that god did seal to every circumcised infant , either the truth of the promises , or his interest in them , or that they did in infancy seal to god , i do not yet understand . for though they had the priviledge mentioned , yet not by vertue of gods sealing to them , and though they were obliged to the duties mentioned , yet not by vertue of their sealing to god. but mr. bl. and mr , b. are more earnest in this point , and in opposition to what i said in my examen , part . sect. . in his answer to my letter mr. bl. ch . . asserts , sect. . the seals of the sacrament are conditionall , not absolute , sect. . the entrance into covenant and acceptation of the terms of it , is common to the elect and reprobate , a heart stedfast in the covenant , and the mercies of the conenant , are proper onely to the elect and regenerate , sect. . to say that the seals of the sacraments are conditionall , and that the reprobate are within the verge of the covenant , as tendered in the gospel ; and accepted , is not to symbolize with arminians . to which i replied in my postscript , sect. . concerning which mr. bl. in his plain scripture proof , &c. pag. . of the first edition , saith , but to these mr. bl. hath fully answered mr t. though in his apology he passeth over much , and is not able to discern his meaning . for my part i speak impartially according to my judgement , i think there is more true worth in those two or three leaves of mr. blakes book , in opening the nature of the covenant , than in all mr t s book that ever he wrote about baptism . and pag. . he chargeth me with two errors in apologie , and saith of them , i conceive these dangerous errors of mr t. about the nature of the covenant and seals in generall , are the root of his error about baptism , or at least much strengthen it , and there he takes upon him to refute them . since that time mr. bl hath renewed his exceptions , vindic grat . ch . . to which as touching upon mr b. about the thing sealed , and manner of sealing , mr b. hath replied in his apologie against mr. blakes exceptions , sect. , &c. pag. . because of mr bs censure i have received the passages in mr blakes answer to my letter , ch . . & in my postscript sect. . and leaving mr. b. ( who is no competent judge of my writings , by reason of his prejudice against me and the cause i maintain ) and others to conceive of my books as they please , i am not ashamed to profess , . that i discern no such true worth in mr blakes mentioned passages which open the nature of the covenant , but rather sundry that darken it , the shewing of which now would be but a digression . . that there is not one of the three positions set down by mr blake , which doth contradict anything i said in my examen , part . sect . for i said not the sacraments are seals absolute , not conditionall ; but that god seals not upon condition persons agnize the covenant , as mr m. said in his sermon , pag. , nor did i deny , that the entrance into covenant and acceptation of i● , is common to elect and reprobate , but that gods covenant of grace , or as i said before , his promise in the covenant of grace , is common to the elect and reprobates , and this was it which i termed symbolizing with arminians , not that which mr. blake sets down . . that i do not find that i have need to make any further reply to mr. blake therein , nor to the six arguments he brings , vindic. foed . ch . . to prove sacraments sealing conditionally . and for the flings mr blake hath at some spe●ches of mine , i shall briefly return answer . those words of mine , i like not to call the sacrament a conditionall seal , for that which seals doth assure , and supposeth the condition ▪ in my apprehension , that which is called conditionall sealing , is not sealing , but offering or propounding , or representing : but about this i will not contend , mr. bl. leaving out the later words , thus oppose●h , then our lawyers have a long time decived us , who have given us presidents ( as they call them ) for obligations under seal , to run in these words ; the condition of this obligation is such , and after an indication of the condition , to conclude and close up all : then this present obligation to be void and of none effect , or else to stand in full force and vertue : seals we see leave the condition to me doubtfull . whereto i reply . neither i nor the lawyers do deceive mr blake , but he deceives himself , the words of the president do intimate that the validity of the obligation is conditionall , and is left doubtfull , not that the seal is conditionall , which doth absolutely assure or testifie the obligation : or , as the lawyers speak , the act and deed of him that seals , which is not future , but present , and so not conditionall . mr baxter apol. against mr blake sect. . i never heard of nor knew a conditionall sealing in the world , though i have oft heard of the effects of obligation and collation of right to be conditionall , which are not onely separate from the terminus proximus of sealing , but also are directly the effects of the covenant , promise , testament , &c. onely , and but remotely of the seals , inasmuch as that seal is a full owning of the testament of conveyance : yet such a thing as a conditionall sealing may be imagined . in a word , a conditionall engagement , or obligation , is one thing , and frequent ; a conditionall seal , or sealing , is another thing but unknown . there are other things at me as calumniating mr. m. concerning his words , as symbolizing with the arminians , which i shall acqui● my self from in answering mr b. and that mr bs questionist and my self are both of one pitch both for knowledge and ignorance , and stand equally affected to mr. bl. both in respect of his person and opinions ; which intimate as if he were perswaded i were that questionist , whom i profess to be unknown to me , and were disaffected to mr. blakes person , though i knew not wherein i have shewed any disaffection to him , and for my knowledge or ignorance be it more or lesse , i hope it will appear in the conclusion , that god hath given me so much knowledge as to shew the vanity of mr blakes and mr bs pleas for infant-baptism . and for his flirt or scoff at the wide standing open of the door in my night sacraments , i think my actions justifiable in celebrating the lords supper at night as christ did , with such notes as the apostle made thereon in calling it the lords supper , cor. . . and relating it so distinctly , v. , . my admitting none but bap●●zed persons after profession of faith , is justified by mr blakes own words , though somewhat misrepresenting my tenent , vindic. foed . ch . . nor do i admit any one other profession to baptism than was done in the first times by men who had the spirit of god to guide them ; and if any be baptized in the night , it 's justifiable by pauls action , acts . . his flings also which he hath , vindic. foed . ch . . p. . shew the same satyricall vein , when he saith , i establish a new conditionall covenant against the new testament light , which i shall shew i establish in that sense , i do it according to plain new testament light , and censures these words , the not teaching one another spoken of , heb. , . is meant of that obscure teaching which was under the law , apol. pag. . said somewhat magisterially after my manner , whereas neither could i well dilate then being straitned in time , and the exposition of that place there was but on the by , and enough was said by me in those words answerably to the occasion , and i conceived understanding men would gather the reason of my interpretation from those few words , which is , that the new covenant being there declared cōtradistinct to that in horeb , as the writing the laws in the heart is mentioned to distinguish it from the writing in stone , so the teaching is mentioned to distinguish it f●ō that obscure teaching which was under the law , which i said not magisterially , nor any thing else , as mr. bl. mis-censures me . this is enough , if not too much to answer these flirts of mr. bl. fourthly , i add , that i find sundry passages in mr. bl. which seem to me to speak to the same purpose with my words , as answer to my letter , pag. . that baptism assures actually when men doe believe , pag. . out of mr. ball , they that be truly in covenant obtained the highest blessings , p. . this covenant of jeremies is no more than that promise , deut. . . the lord thy god will circumcise thy heart , and the heart of thy seed , that thou mayst love the lord , &c. and his words vindic. foed . ch . . pag. . that the sacrament doth actually seal to believers and penitent ones , are answered by mr b. apol. against mr bl. sect . . thus , i perceive mr. t. and you are more of a mind than i was aware off . sect . xxxiii . that it is no error as mr baxter calls it , but a truth , that the covenant of grace is made onely to the elect . but that i may acquit my self of mr. bs charge of errors in these points , i shall answer first what he saith about my fifth imagined error , because as mr. b. saith , appendix to his aphorisms , pag. . it is in vain to enquire whether the sacraments do seal absolutely or conditionally , till you first know well what it is that they seal . and here i think it needfull to set down mr bs words against mr , bl. in his apol. p. . sect. . arg. . that doctrine which signifieth an unsealed covenant for giving right to the covenant of grace , is unsound . but such is mr. blakes , therefore no scripture can be brought to prove such an outward covenant of gods : and it is against the common reason and custome of men , that a second covenant should not be drawn to convey right to the seal of the first covenant , seeing right to covenants seals go together , and if there must be another covenant to give right to that , then by the same reason there must be another to give right to that , and another to that , and so in infinitum . to the antecedent it is apparent that mr. bl. distinguisheth ex parte dei between the outward and inward covenant . it is probable that he thus distributes them from the blessings promised , whereof some are inward , and some outward : for though he explain not himself fully , yet i know no other sense that it will bear . it is evident that his outward covenant hath no seal . for it is a covenant de conferendis ●igillis . if therefore it have a seal , it is either the same which is promised , or some other : other i never heard of . they no where tell us what is the seal of their outward covenant : the same it cannot be , for the same thing cannot be the materia foederis , or the legacie it self , or the benefit given , and the seal too of that covenant whereby it is given . and pag. ● . mr bls common phrase is , that they are [ in the outward covenant ] and what that is , i cannot tell , and then proves , that god makes no such outward covenant . from whence i inferr , , that mr. b. had not cause to blame me for not disdaining mr blakes meaning when he understands him no better , , nor to magnifie his writing so much , in which he finds so many flawes . . nor to rest so much upon an imagined ground of mens right to baptism by gods promise or covenant grant which the che●fest assertors of paedobaptism cannot well tell what it is . . that by mr bs judgment there is no such outward covenant of god , as mr bl. and other paedobaptists infer infant-baptism from ▪ and for the inward covenant , or covenant of saving grace , mr m. mr g. and others , disclaim it as made to all the infants of believers . let us view what mr b. saith about the covenant sealed by baptism and its sealing . in his confut. of my six imagined errors plain scripture proof , &c. pag. , he thus speaks , error● . mr t. holdeth that the covenant whereof baptism is the seal , is the absolute covenant of grace made onely to the elect . confutation . many more mistakes he utters in the way to this about the covenant . this he publickly pleaded for in his dispute , and alledged dr. twisse as affirming the covenant of grace to be absolute . to which i then answered , . that to thrust in mens names and words , when in disputation we are enquiring what the scripture saith , was unseasonable and diverting . . that dr. twisse doth constantly in all his writings affirm , that the promises of remission of sin and salvation are conditionall , though the promise of the grace [ i will take the hard heart out of their bodies &c ] is absolute . this i dare affirm as having read six of dr twisse his books again and again . and then he adds somewhat of dr. twisse , which i leave to others to answer as they shall see cause . answer . that baptism is the seal of the covenant is not my expression , except when i speak in answer to paedobaptists according to their mind , and in what seal and manner i allow it , i have said before . what i said of dr twisse in the disputation , was neither unseasonable nor diverting , nor untrue . the dispute was ( so far as i can gather from my memory and the notes i have of the dispute ) whe●her the words deut. . . did prove that god did make the covenant ●here with all that are said to enter into covenant , which i ●enied , and mr. b. endeavoured to prove from the words [ and that he may be to thee a god ] and from deut. . ▪ where he promiseth to circumcise the heart of them and of their seed ; which i proved could not be , sith the covenant of grace is made only to the elect , and it is absolute in that promise , i will write my lawes in their hearts , which is the same with circumcising the heart , and so could not be meant of all that entred into covenant , deut. . , , ( which mr b. since acknowledge●h in his letter to mr. bedford when he saith thus , the text seemes plainly to speak of their seed not in their infant estate but in their adult , deut. . ) but of the elect onely , and in respect of that promise the covenant of grace is absolute , which i thought seasonable , no way diverting from the business to confirm by dr. twisse his authority , whose tenent mr b. confesseth was , that the promise of the first grace [ i will take the hard heart out of their bodies , &c. ] is absolute . and to shew that i did dr. twisse no wrong , i shall alledge some words of his which i find in his animadversions on corvinus his defence of arminius against tilenus , p. negamus deum pacisci foedus gra●iae cum omnibus & singulis : dicimus hoc fieri solum cum electis : that is , we deny that god makes the covenant of peace with all and each , we say it to be made onely with the elect . pag. . at foedus gratiae absolutum est ; quod & nube testimoniorm divinorum comprobatum damus : that is , but the covenant of grace is absolute , which also we prove by a cloud of testimonies . but mr. b. having given dr twisse a lash , on the by falls thus on me . but mr. t. his answer to me was , that the promise of saving grace is not conditional , and that though some parts of the covenant be conditionall , yet it is all together that is called the covenant , the leading promise being not conditionall , therefore the covenant is not conditionall , and that it was a grosse palpable error of me to say , that the promise of saving benefits was made to infants that were not ●lest . answer . my answer is the same now that it was then , and having upon occasion of this charge , reviewed the notes of the dispute , which though very imperfect , i have yet by me , i find not but that in the greatest part of the dispute , i answered mr. b. rightly , though he have most shamefully and unbrotherlike misrepresented me to the world , and made a noyse in the world as if he had driven me to gross absurdities , which having acquitted my self from in my pr●cursor , sect. . he replies nothing to that section , which i take to be a tacite confession of his unworthy abusing of me , and i do think it necessary to tell the world , that i find so little of brotherly love to me , or common ingenuity in his insolent carriages towards me at the dispute , and his relations of me and of the dispute in print , that i think i should have found better dealing from a jesuite than from him . and though i take him to be a godly man , and an excellent preacher and writer in practicall points , yet i find him to be but a superficiall disputer , and a slight interpreter of scripture . but to the point . four things mr. b. it seems mislikes in my answer , . that i said , that the promise of saving grace is not conditionall . to declare my self more fully , it is requisite i should shew what promise of saving grace i make not conditionall . there is the saving grace of redemption , regeneration , justification , remission of sins , adoption , glorification . the condition imagined as presupposed to the promise of saving grace , that is , to the fulfilling of it , is either the well using naturall abilities , as foregoing the promise of conversion and regeneration ; or faith and repentance as foregoing justification , remission of sins , adoption , glorification . the promise of saving grace may be said to be conditionall in respect of these later saving graces , and the conditions mentioned , yet in respect of the promisers intention and act in the event , certain , necessary , and infallibly to be performed by the person to whom the promise is made , and in this sense i grant the promise of saving graces conditionall , that is , that god hath promised to none the saving graces of justification , remission of sins , adoption , but on condition of true repentance and faith ; nor glorification but on condition of perseverance therein : yet that these conditions are not uncertain in the event , or left to the persons to whom the promise is made , to do by themselves , but by gods intention and actings certainly to be accomplished ; or it may be said to be conditionall , that is , ●o as that the condition of any of these graces is made the well using naturall abilities , or that the conditions of these later saving graces are uncertain in the event notwithstanding the promisers intention and acting , and thus i deny the promise of saving grace to be conditionall . more briefly , i deny the promise of regeneration and conversion , to presuppose some well using our naturall abilities , or that justification , remission of sins , adoption , glorification , are promised upon condition of our repentance , faith , obedience , perseverance , left by god to be performed by us , and not promised as certain in the event , which is the arminian sense , yet deny that the promise of justification , remission of sins , is absolute , so as that god promiseth that an elect person shall be justified , or have remission of sins without a fore faith , which is charged on the antinomians . the second thing which mr. b. mislikes in my answer is , that though some parts of the covenant be conditional , yet it is all together that is called the covenant . but this speech if it be liable to exception , mr. b. must except against the holy ghost , who doth expresly call all together the covenant , heb. . . saying , this is the covenant which i will make , and having recited all together , he adds , v. . in that he saith a new covenant . and the like is heb. . . the third thing misliked in my answer is , and the leading promise being no● conditionall , therefore the covenant is not conditional ▪ but there is no just cause of excepting against this , sith ●t is usuall , and that according to a logick rule to determinate from the more famous part , or chief part , as a visible church is called holy , or of saints , even in scripture , cor. . . from the better part , a field of corn where is much tare . do not paedobaptists usually call the covenant gen. . the eovenant of grace , though there be other promises than of saving grace , and what promise is made of saving grace there ▪ is made under the covert of words expressing other things . and to shew that there is reason for what i said , i urge , . that the promise of writing the lawes of god in the heart , heb. . ▪ is not onely the leading promise , but also it is the comprehensive promise , including or inferring all the rest , for therefore god will be a god to them , be mercifull to their unrighteousness , because he will write his lawes in their heart ; to those and those onely he promiseth the later to whom he promised the former . yea , it seemeth to be the principall thing god aimed at in the new covenant , to assure that he would not write his lawes in stone as he did before , but write them in their heart . . that where luke● . , . he puts it to be in this ( which i take to be absolute ) that he would give to us , that being delivered from the hand of our enemies , without fear we should serve him in holiness and righteousness before him all the dayes of our life , v. , . the fourth thing misliked in my answer is , that i said , that it was a gross palpable error of mr. b. to say that the promise of saving benefits was made to infants that were not elect . if i understand mr. m. he counted it a gross error , when he disclaimed this asser●ion , that the covenant of saving grace is made to believers and their naturall seed . defence of his sermon , pag. . and mr. g. when in his vindic. p●●dob p. . he said of this conclusion , that infants are taken into covenant with their parents in respect of saving graces , you know the conclusion in that sense is so manifestly against protestants principles and experience , that no protestant can hold it but mr. b. it 's like will not be convinced by mens sayings , let us try what we can do by arguments . the promise of saving benefits is made onely to those to whom saving benefits are bestowed : but to elect infants onely they are bestowed . ergo. the major is manifest to them that acknowledge god to be true and faithfull , it being manifest falshood and unfaithfulness to promise and not to perform . but it is certain by experience and scripture that god saves none but the elect . therefore it is a gross and palpable error as charging god with lying to say , that his promise of saving benefits is made to infants not elect . . this is proved directly from the apostles words , rom. . , , . which also strengthens the former argument , where he concludes that the promises of god must be understood as made to them only to whom they were performed , otherwise the word of god should fall , which he abhorres as blasphemy . but i argue further thus . to them onely is the promise of saving benefits made , who are children of that promise , that god would be a god to them in respect of saving benefits , for to be the children of the promise there is manifestly meant of those to whom the promise of being god is meant , gen. . . as is proved before , sect. , . which the apostle in that chapter understands of saving benefits , which i think will not be denied ; if it were , it might be proved from v. , &c. but the elect onely are children of the promise , this is proved before , sect. , , and might be proved from v. . ergo. . i further argue from the same place ; if any other than the elect infants had the promise of saving benefits made to them ; then all the naturall seed of abraham , for no infants besides the elect , had more promises of saving benefits than they : but they all had not the promise of saving benefits made to them , the apostle determines , that the promise was to ishmael not esau , but onely to isaac and jacob , that the purpose of god according to election might stand , or be of him that calleth , whom he will for the seed , v. . therefore the promise of saving benefits is made onely to elect infants . to the allegation of this text , i find something said by mr. b. in his plain scripture proof . & . part. . chap. . . there is no strong appearance of contradiction in this to what we have taught . for i willingly acknowledge , that they are not therefore the children of god , because they are the seed of abraham , or others that were godly , but because they are the children of the promise . but mr. b. c●ean mistakes the apostles speech , for he conceives that all the naturall seed of abraham were yeelded to be the children of god , but not because children of the flesh , bu● because children of the promise , as if he granted the thing , but denied the reason , whereas the apostle denies the thing it self , affirming , that all the seed of abraham , were not the children of god , rom. . , , and contradisting the children of the promise to the children of the flesh , which were non-sense if they were the same , and no distinction or opposition between them . as if a man say , not all natives but free-men are citizens , he supposeth all natives are not freemen , and denies all natives who are not free-men , to be citizens mr b. adds , i pray you observe , . that which the apostle here pleadeth , is , that salvation was not by the covenant tied to all abrahams seed . to which i reply , this grants what i would evi●ce , that the promise of saving benefites was not to all abrahams seed , but only to the elect of them . but yet sa●th mr. b. he denieth not but church-membership did for the time past belong to the generallity of them . now it is not the certain salvation , but the church-membership of infants that we are disputing for ( in regard of the individuals answer . though it be the church-membership of infants which paedobaptists dispute for , and not the certain salvation , yet they would inferre their church-membership from that covenant which was a covenant of salvation as it was evangelicall . and this mr. b. must yeild , who in the words forecited against mr. bl. denies an outward covenant giving right to the seals , and asserts , a right to baptism as it is a benefit given directly by god from his promise , or covenant apol. against mr bl. p. ▪ which is no other than of saving grace , by which if salvation be not tied to all abrahams seed , then that covenant is not the ground of their church-membership , and right to the initiall seal , and consequently not to our infants , for take away the cause , the effect is removed , & so this text is directly against infant-baptism and church-membership . mr. b. adds , . the apostle disputeth not against the salvation or church-membership of every one of abrahams seed ; ( for many of his seed were after this saved ) but against the salvation of the whole seed or posterity conjunctim . but now anabaptists dispute against the church-membership visible of any infants . answer . if the church-membership visible of the whole seed or posterity conjunctim of abraham be asserted ( as it is by mr. b. ) from that covenant which the apostle denies to belong to the whole seed or posterity conjunctim ( which mr b. grants ) he disputeth for the anabaptists against the imagined visible church-membership of all infants of true believers . . saith mr. b. that which the apostle mainly drives at , is , that men are not therefore saved because they are abrahams carnall seed ( and consequently not because they are the carnall seed of any other . and i say so too with all my heart . but the apostle doth not say , or mean , that abrahams seed should not be saved : for they shall again be called , and so all israel shall be saved , rom. ) but onely that they are saved , not because they are his seed , bu● because they are children of the promise : and so say we , that the seed of the faithfull are church-members , and disciples and subjects of christ , not properly or directly because they are their seed ( for so they are no better than others : but because they are children of the promise ; god having been pleased to make the promise to the faithfull and their seed ; and having promised that the seed of the righteous shall be blessed : and that he will be mercifull to them , and will take thm to be a people to him , and he will be to them a god , and he hath pronounced them holy . isaac was abrahams seed , and jacob his , and yet not saved because his seed directly and properly ( yet remotely they were : ) but because children of the promise . answer . mr. b. in his pass●ge shewes , he neither understood the apostles scope nor answer , but according to his overly manner of handling texts , perverts both . i grant that from the apostles words it followeth , that men are not therefore saved because they are abrahams seed , and consequently not because they are the carnall seed of any other . but it is manifest , and acknowledged by all interpreters almost i m●et with , that the apostles scope is to answer an objection as the words v. . shew , that if the jewes were rejected the word of god to israel and abrahams seed falls ; which shews , that the objectors did not conceive god by covenant tied to save all abrahams seed , and israel , because he had by covenant tied himself to be a god to abraham and his seed , gen. . . and therefore paul did not rightly suggest , rom. , , . as if they should be rejected . the clearing of ●he consistency of these two things , the truth of gods promise , gen. . . , and the apostles intimation that the jewes should be cast away , was his scope , not that which mr. b. imagines the apostle mainly drives at , to shew why the jewes are saved , for the apostle supposeth that they should not be saved , and to maintain it , answers the objection . whence also it may be perceived , that mr. b. quite perverts the apostles answer : for he makes it to be this , . that the apostle doth not say , or mean , abrahams seed should not be saved , whereas it 's the very occasion of the objection , that he determined that a great part , or the body or people of the jewes , who were abrahams seed , were then rejected , as his words shew , rom. . , , , , , ▪ & , , , , . & . . . . , &c. and the gentiles taken for gods people in their stead : the searching of which was the great quarrell the jewes had against paul ▪ so that mr b. makes paul not to say that which he did teach , and plainly intimated in that very place . . that he onely sayes , that abrahams carnall seed were saved , not because they are his seed , but because they are children of the promise , which is both contrary to the apostles suppositions , which is , that they are not saved , and that because they are not children of god , nor children of the promise , though children of the flesh , and impertinent to the removing of the objection concerning the rejection of the jewes , how it could stand with gods promise . for the answer as mr. b. makes it , had no way justified gods truth , but strengthened the objection , if it were supposed they were children of the promise , whom yet paul counted for castawayes . nor do the apostles words say the children of the flesh are saved though not because they are abrahams seed , but that they are not the children of god , who were onely children of the flesh , not children of the promise , nor counted for the seed to whom the promise gen. . . was made at all , as it was evangelicall . as for what mr. b. alledgeth , that the jewes shall be again called , and so all israel be saved , rom. . and therefore the apostle doth not say , or mean , that abrahams seed should not be saved , it is inconsequent , si●h the apostle might and did suppose the present should not be saved though hereafter the jewes shall ; it followes on the contrary , he supposed the present jewes should be rejected , because he speaks of the calling and salvation of the jewes , was a thing future , yet not till the fulness of the gentiles be come in , in the mean time he saith , blindness happened to them in part . and what he saith , that god hath been pleased to make the promise to the faithfull and their seed , he neither sheweth where that promise is , nor do i know where to find it , nor where he promiseth to take them to be a people to him , and that he will be to them a god , and for what he alledgeth , that the seed of the righteous shall be blessed , and that god will be mercifull to them , how little they make for the visible church-membership of g●ntile believers infants , will be shewed in answering chap. , , , of the first part of his book . and for gods pronouncing them holy , he is fully answered , antipoedob , part . sect. ● &c. it followes in mr. b. and observe further , that paul here speaks not a word against the priviledge of the infants whose parents deny not god , nor violate his covenant , and fall not away . if any man should affirm , that all the infants of the faithfull so dying , are certainly saved , there is not a syllable in this text against him . for paul onely pleads , that if men fall away and prove unbelievers , god will not save them because ahraham ( or any other remote progenitor ) was faithful . the covenant never intended this : but yet children of those that fall not away , or be not broken off for unbelief , do lose none of their priviledges , but may belong to the visible or invisible church if any man should deny christ , and yet think to be saved because they are englishmen , or because their progenitors long since were faithfull ; i should use to them pauls words here . but what is this to those who do not deny christ , and therefore are both children of the flesh , and of the-promise ? besides , those the apostle here excludeth , were aged unbelievers , so that this text hath not any colour either against baptism , or their church membership . answer . there is little truth in this passage , paul speaks , rom. , . , , &c. against the being in the covenant , gen. . . of abrahams and isaacs naturall seed , and therefore by consequence against the church membership and baptism of believers children by vertue of that covenant being made to them , and he excludes esau before he was born , and therefore other than aged believers , and if esau the son of isaac , no apostate , were out of the covenant , and declared so afore he was born , then had he died in infancy , he had not bin saved , and so there is more than a syllable in this text against him , who should affirm , that all the infants of the faithfull so dying , are certainly saved ; for this text affirms some infants of the most holy believers , are not in covenant , and if not in covenant , not certainly saved , but certainly reprobate . the children of those who fall not away , have no such priviledge , that they do certainly belong either to the invisible or visible church . if there may be infant-children of believers who may be children of the flesh and not children of the promise , then the promise of saving benefits is not made to any other than the elect , for sure it is made to none other of other believers , if it be made onely to the elect ones of abraham and isaac . i go on . . the promise which is in christ yea and amen , is made onely to the elect , for it is not yea and amen to any other , sith it is not ratified & accomplished to any other . but the promise of saving benefits is in christ yea and amen , for so are as many promises as are in christ , cor. . . and such is the promise of saving benefits . ergo. . those promises which were made to christ , were made onely to the elect , for whether christ personall be meant the promises were made to him onely for those whom he represents , and they are onely the elect , or christs mysticall body that is his church they are the elect onely : but the promise of saving benefits made to christ , gal. . . ergo. . the promise which is of the covenant confirmed unto christ , is onely to the elect : but such is the promise of saving benefits , gal . . ergo. . the promise which is of eternall life ▪ is made onely to the elect : but such is the promise of saving benefits , tit. . . ergo. . to whom the promise of saving benefits is made , are heirs of the promise : but they are only to the elect , for to the heirs of promise gods counsell is shewed to be immutable for their salvation , heb. . . but so it is onely to the elect . ergo. . those promises by which we are made partakers of the divine nature , are made onely to the elect : but such are the promises of saving benefits , pet. . . ergo. . the promise of that covenant is made onely to the elect , of which christ is surety , for christs sureti●hip engageth him to perform it , and he performs it onely to the elect , therefore he is surety of the covenant onely for the elect : but the promise of saving benefits is of that covenant of which christ is surety , heb. . . ergo. . that covenant which is confirmed by christs blood , is made onely with the elect , for it was shed for them onely . but such is the new covenant , or covenant of grace , matth . ergo. . that covenant which is different from the first covenant in that it is not an occasion of complaint in that it was broken , and they continued not in it , is made onely to the elect : but such is the new covenant , or covenant of grace , heb. . , , . ergo. . the covenant which ingageth god to write his lawes in the hearts of those to whom it is made , ●s made onely to the elect , for god doth this onely to them : but such is the new covenant , or covenant of grace , heb. . . & . . ergo. . the covenant of which christ is mediator , is made onely to the elect . for he is mediator for them onely , sith he prayes for them onely , john . , and he is mediator of the new covenant , that by means of death they which are called might receive the promise of eternall inheritance , heb. . . but such is the new covenant or covenant of grace , heb. . ergo. . that covenant which is an everlasting covenant , is made onely to the elect , for the covenant with reprobates is not everlasting . but such is the new covenant , or covenant of grace , heb. . . ergo that in which are given the sure mercies of david , is made onely to the elect , for no other have them given to them : but such is the new covenant , or covenant of grace , isa. . . ergo. . that covenant which engageth god to give to them to whom it is made , deliverance from all enemies , and to serve god in holiness and righteousness before him all the dayes of their life without fear , is made onely to the elect , for to them onely god performs it : but such is the covenant of grace , luke . , , . ergo that covenant which assures perseverance to them to whom it was made , is made onely to the elect , for they onely persevere : but such is the new covenant of grace , isa. ▪ , . jer. ▪ . ergo. . if the covenant of grace be made with other than the elect , then it is the absolute or condi●ionall covenant , as mr b. distinguisheth ; but neither : not the first , as mr b. confesse●h ; nor the conditionall , for it is made onely with believers , and they are onely the elect . i grant it is propounded , as dr twisse speaks , animad . in corinth . defens . pag. ▪ or as others say , offered or tendered to others , but made with the elect . ergo. if the covenant of grace be made to any other than to the elect , then with all , which seems to be mr. bs opinion , when he saith , plain scripture proof , &c. pag : , the new covenant is conditionall and universall . but it is not made withall . that covenant which was made with all , had adam for the common head , but the new covenant was not made with adam as the common head , but with christ who is given for a covenant of the people , isai. . . and therefore rhe promise was , that the seed of the woman should break the serpents head , gen. . . which mr b most corruptly interprets , of the whole seed of the woman , infants as well as others . plain scripture proof , &c. part . . chap. . pag. , but it is true primarily or onely of christ , heb. . . but christ is not a common head to all , but onely to the elect , who are chosen in him , eph. . , . ergo i omit the arguments which doctor twisse urgeth in his animadversions on corinus , pag. . answer to m. hoard , pag. . . doctor kendall , vindic. part . ch . ▪ pag. , , and hasten to consider what mr b. saith further against me . and he saith in his examen and apology , that mr m. speakes like corinus and the arminians , in his asserting the conditional sealing , and when he talks of the covenant , christs suretiship , &c. to which i answer , a great many hotspurs of this age do make any thing arminianism , which is but contradictory to antinomianism . i will not say mr t. is an antinomian , for i think he is not ; but this opinion , that the covenant of grace , which baptism sealeth , is onely to the elect , and is not conditionall , is one of the two master-pillars in the antinomian fabrick ▪ answer . . if any antinomian or antipaedobaptist hath been in this age a verier hot-spur than mr b. let him be disciplin'd at bedlem : for my part i know none that hath in his writings shewed so much heat ( call it fury or zeal as you please ) with so much confidence and peremptoriness , and so many mistakes against antinomians , antipaedobaptists , and others , as he ha●h don . and surely they want not considerate men that fear lest the esteem he ●a●h gotten by his practical writings , and for infant-baptism , and the ministery , may occasion the swallowing down of some things he vents about univers●ll redemption , universall covenant of grace , uncertainty of perseverance , and salvation , the condition of justification , which with●ut more than a grain of salt will turn to a●miniani●m and popery if received by such understandings as are not of good concoction . nor do i know any man who under so great a shew of se●king truth and peace in the church , hath more hindred both . for tha● wh●ch he saith , that this opinion that the covenant of grace is onely to elect , and is n●t conditionall , is one of the pillars of antinomianism . i have made some search into my books , and made use of my memory , and though i find that in the synod at new town in new england , august , , this is made the error of the antinomians , that where faith is held forth by the ministery as the condition of the ●ovenant of grace on mans part , as also evidencing justification by sanctification and the activity of faith , in that church there is not sufficien● bread and in other books they are charged wi●h error in holding the covenant of grace absolute , so as if by it men were exempted from duty , they were justified without faith , &c. yet i never to my remembrance heard th●s charged with antinomianism , that the covenant of grace is made onely to the elect , but find it avouched by many of their best antagonists ; and the covenant of grace is held by able anti-arminians unconditionall in th●se two senses , . that god requires no condition from us to be performed by our power , but what he requires of us to do , he promiseth to works in those to whom he makes promise in that covenant . that in the covenant of grace god requires no condition which is of an uncertain event , but to those to whom he makes his promises of righteousness , forgiveness , eternall life , he also by covenant assures repentance , faith , and perseverance : and therefore though some proposals of the covenant of grace be conditionall , yet no promise as it stands in the entire covenant , is conditionall : and therefore the covenant and all the promises to be termed absolute and conditionall . mr. b. adds , . but to these mr b. hath fully answered mr. t. and fully cleared mr m. and himself from the charge of symbolizing with the arminians ; and hath fully proved , that the entrance into covenant , and acceptation of the term of it ( though not sincerely and unreservedly ) is common to the elect and reprobate ; and that the reprobate are within the verge of the covenant , as tendered in the gospel , and accepted ( as beforesaid with a half heart . ) and if any that are run into the other extream , shall think that this affirming that [ christ hath brought the reprobate also into the covenant of grace conditionall ] be any part of the arminian errors , as the whole scripture is against them , so mr. blake hath said enough to satisfie . answer . what mr blake asserted and took upon him to prove , did neither contradict what i said , nor vindicate mr m. who said in his sermon pag. . . that god did seal to infants presently , and put their name into the deed. . that in the mean time untill they come to years of discretion , jesus christ who is the surety of the covenant , heb. . . and the surety of all the covenanters , is pleased to be their surety . . that god accepts of such a seal on their parts as they are able to give in their infant age , expecting a future ratification on their part , when they are come to riper years . . that in the mean time he affords them the favour and priviledge of being in covenant with him . . when they are grown men , they may refuse to stand to this covenant , and nullifie all . these things i count symbolizing with arminians , to say that infants who may and do when they come to age , refuse to stand to this covenant , are for a while afforded by god the favour and priviledge of being in covenant with him , even in that covenant of which jesus christ is their surety , and that for a while jesus christ is their surety which contains three points of arminianism , . that god affords them the favour of being in covenant with him in that covenant of which christ is surety , who are reprobates . . that christ is their sure●y . . that they may be thus in covenant for a time onely . to say that any is afforded the favour of being in covenant with god who may be so for a time , and that christ is surety for such covenanters , is to hold that god makes this new covenant with other than the elect , and that christ is surety for them , is to hold that the new covenant is made with all , and that it doth not assure effectuall calling and perseverance , but is upon an uncertain condition left to mans will , which are condemned as the arminians errors on the second and fifth articles , by the deputies of gelderland act synod . dordr . judic . theol. prov. pag. . of south-holland pag. , . of north-holland ▪ pag . of zealand , pag. . of virecht , pag. , , . of friesland , pag. , &c. profess . belg ▪ pag. ● ▪ disput. g●ld . pag. . transisul . pag. , and others . and whereas mr. bl. vindic foed . pag. . chargeth me with misci●ing corvinus , i confesse i have not now his book by me , having lost it , yet such remaining notes as i have by me , do give me cause to think there is somewhat to that purpose in or neer the place , and however it is carried on , corvinus by the deputies at the synod of dort , in his defence of arminius against tilenus , and by dr. twisse in his animad ▪ pag. . and generally charged on the arminians by other authors forecited : and though i count mr m. far from arminianism , yet i again say , the speeches he used do symbolize with their language . mr. b. adds , he that will deny reprobates to be so far within the covenant of grace , must not onely deny infant-baptism , but all sacraments , till he be able infallibly to discern a man to be elect . and doubtless this interest in the covenant is ● fruit of christs death . answer . i deny not but reprobates may be in the covenant of grace in this sense , they may have it tendred to them by the preachers of the gospel , they may accept of that tender with half an heart , they may think themselves to be in it , they may by baptism engage themselves to believe unto the death , they may be received into the church , deemed to be really in the covenant of grace ▪ but it is not true that god ever made the new covenant to or with them , or that christ as a mediator brought them into the covenant of grace● or was surety of them , or that god afforded them for a time the favour of being in covenant with him . and though i deny not that it is a fruit of christs death , that whosoever believeth on him should live , yet that this is not obtained for the reprobate , but the elect ; nor a part by it self , but together with this , that he should gather into one the children of god that were scattered abroad , john , . and that they which are called might receive the promise of eternall inheritance , heb. . . nor need i by these assertions of mine deny baptism or the lords supper to any man till i be able to discern him infallibly to be a man elect . for i have warrant to baptize him if he shew by his profession that he is a disciple of christ , and though i knew infallibly he were one of those whom god would save , and had promised saving grace to him , and in that sense were in the covenant of grace , yet for the present not a d●sciple , i should justifiably refuse to baptize him . and this is a sufficient plea why we baptize not infants of believers , because they are not then disciples , no not though it could be proved god had promised to be their god. mr. b. adds , mr t. one day in the pulpit in pleading that the covenant belonged onely to the elect , was pleased to bring me in as witnessing thereto , in the append . of my aphor. pag. . because i there say , that the absolute promise , or prophesie there mentioned is made onely to the elect ; when yet onely the very scope of the place is to prove that it is not the absolute promise that is most fitly called the covenant of grace . answer . my alledging mr bs words was right and pertinent : for they acknowledged the promise heb. . , to be absolute , and to the elect onely , which was enough for my purpose , and this the author of that episte calls the new covenant or testament , and however , mr bs conceit is i have proved before the holy ghost doth make it to be the covenant of god , and therefore i deem it fitly be called the covenant of grace , chusing to speak as the scripture speaks , rather than as mr b. conceives sittest . sect . xxxix . mr baxter hath not proved that the absolute promise or covenant is not it that i● sealed in baptism and the lords supper . he adds , but that this absolute promise , or covenant ( if you will call it so ) is not it that is sealed in baptism and the lords supper , i prove against mr t. thus , clearly . answer . he should prove nothing against me though he should prove neither the absolute nor conditional promise to be sealed in baptism and the lords supper . for though it be true , that in some sense i grant baptism and the lords supper to seal the covenant of grace , yet in the sense and to the purposes paedobaptists use to say the covenant is sealed by them , i reject it , and can freely yeild that the use uf baptism and the lords supper is not to seal gods covenant either absolute or conditionall to us , except by remote consequence , but to signifie our duty of engaging our selves to be christs disciples in baptism , and to remember his death in the lords supper . but mr bs dispute in this is against himself , in that his arguments will overthrow his own assertion of infant-baptism , and against his fellow paedobaptists , who make baptisme to seal the promise of regeneration from titus . , and the promise of being a god to abraham and his seed from gen. . . which the apostle rom. . , , . makes absolute , and appropriates to the elect . i need not cite again paedobaptists speeches , making baptism the seal of regeneration , and of the covenant , gen. . . having cited before , sect. , sundry , to wit , the assembly in the directory , mr m &c. in the assembly at westminster their confession of faith , chap. . baptism is ordained by jesus christ to be to the baptized a sign and seal of the covenant of grace , of his ingrafting into christ , of regeneration , of remission of sins , and of his giving up unto god through jesus christ to walk in newness of life . artic. of the church of england . baptism is a sign of regeneration or newness , whereby as by an instrument they that receive baptism rightly are graffed into the church , the promises of forgiveness of sin , and of our adoption to be the sons of god , by the holy ghost , are visibly signed and sealed . in the french confess . artic , . by baptism , as by a certain and stable seal , this promise is sealed , that chri●t will be to us sanctification and justification . in mr gatakers two books against dr davenant , there are so many passages out of the chiefest protestant writers which do make baptism the sign and seal of regeneration , and of the promise of it , that it would be tedious to transcribe them , i shall poynt at some pages wherein they may be found . discept . de vi bapt . infant . pag. , , , , ● . strict . in daven . ep. pag. , , . there is one passage which he cites often out of vorstius , that the gospel preachers are wont to acknowledge one onely generall effect of baptism , to wit , the sealing of a double saving grace promised in the gospel concerning the remission together and the purging out of sins by the blood and spirit of christ , which is by inward renovation , which is absolutely promised . yea mr gataker , a man deservedly much valued by mr b. discept . de bapt . infant . saith , that baptism doth equally if not primarily design internall renewing , regeneration , mortification , quickning , which in that sign are not onely most clearly shadowed , but also painted , both the thing it self doth lowdly speak , and the holy scripture doth most expressly , rom. . , . col. . , . t it . . eph. . and though all express not the sealing of regeneration alike by baptism , some placing it in the assuring to the conscience , some in the giving of title , some of regeneration already given , some of regeneration to be attained in time , yet all make i● the seal of that covenant wherein god promiseth it , and do commonly distinguish it from the lords supper , which they make the seal of growth as they do baptism , of new-birth and entrance into the church . so mr m. in his sermon , p. , . but let us hear what mr b. opposeth , ▪ that which is sealed to by the sacrament , is a proper covenant , having a restipulation on our parts as well as a promise on gods part . but an absolute promise is not a proper covenant with such a mutuall engagement , but properly a meer promise or prophesie , therefore it is not this absolute promise which is sealed by the sacraments . the major m. t. cannot deny ; for he pleaded it himself ●n the pulpit as a reason to prove that infants might not be baptized , because they could not engage themselves . and he brought that passage in my foresaid appendix , pag. . as attesting it , where i say it is a mutuall engaging sign or seal : as it is given it is gods seal , as it is accepted it is ours . and indeed the very definition of a proper covenant ( of which grotius de jure belli , and other lawyers , will inform you ) sheweth as much that it must be a mutuall engagement . now in that absolute promise [ i will take the hard heart out of their bodies &c. ] there is no such matter , but onely god telleth what he will do . answer . according to my own judgement i use not to te●m sacraments seals of the covenant , nor did i urge mr bs words otherwise than as an argument ad homin●m , to prove from his own words , that infants have not baptism rightly according to his own grants . . because there is no restipulation on infants part , therefore there is no covenant properly so called between god and them , and so baptism of infants is not a seal of a covenant , and consequently according to the supposition of paedobaptists , no sacrament . ▪ baptism is saith mr b. a mutuall engaging sign or seal , as it is given it is gods seal , as i● is accepted it is our : but in infant-baptism there is no mutuall engagement or signing . infants promise nothing , nor sign or accept of any thing , ergo infant-baptism is not , according to mr bs own grants , right ; nor are these objections avoided by saying the parents covenant for them : for neither is there any the least ground o● hint in scripture that for baptismall covenanting the parents covenant should go for the childs covenant , nor do in the practice of baptizing the parents restipulate though they declare their faith , and if they should promise or engage for the child , they should sin , and so should and have those that have promised as sureties the infant should believe and obey christ , which they have not been able to perform , but have taken on them christs prerogative , heb. . . nor is the baptism of the infant his sign or seal , he being meerly passive , as they say , and so doing no act , nor engaging thereby , and if the parent do engage for the child , the parent should be baptized for the child , if baptism be the baptized party his seal . but as i said , i do not call baptism a seal of the covenant , and therefore am not tied at all to answer this argument , except to shew the fuci●ity of it . for which end , . the mann●r of speech is liable to exception in the use of the term proper covenant ] which i imagine mr. b. useth unskilfully for properly so called . . there is no proof of the major , from this , that baptism or the sacrament is a mutuall engaging sign or seal . for that proves rather that baptism or the sacrament it self is a proper covenant , than that , that which is sealed by the sacraments is a proper covenant . . nor doth it follow , that if the very definition of a proper covenant be , that it must be a mutuall engagement , that which is sealed by the sacraments must be a proper covenant , but onely proves that upon supposition , that the covenant sealed to by the sacraments , must be a proper covenant , that then it must be with restipulation or mutuall engaging . . though lawyers do determine that a covenant properly so called , is a mutuall engagement , yet this proves not that which in scripture is termed the covenant which they say baptism seals , is such . yea , in all the places ( that i know ) where the covenant of grace is mentioned , there is no restipulation at all mentioned , neither gen. . nor jer. . nor luke . nor heb. & . but where there is a restipulation , it is rather the covenant of the law than of the gospel . . that which is a meer prophesie or promise , is as properly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which we translate covenant , as a mutuall engagement , as i shall shew hereafter against mr. bl. . nor do i know why that may not be a mutuall engagement if the absolute promise were sealed to by the sacrament as well as if the conditionall . for if the engagement in the conditionall covenant on gods part is , that if he believe he shall be justified ; and on mans part , that he will believe : or rather in baptism he testifies , he doth believe . the absolute promise is to give faith : is not god and man in like manner engaged by baptism in sealing this as well as the other ? . i know not how it can be truly said , that baptism as given is gods seal , and as accepted mans seal . for neither doth god give baptism to be accepted but his promise , nor is the baptized said to accept baptism , but the promise . nor is there any act of god which may be called his seal , but he covenants , and i presume they will not confound covenant and seal . . nor doth the infant accept , or seal , or engage , and therefore in infant-baptism there is no covenant or seal . by this description of mr. b. there should be a mutuall seal , and so a severall seal , and not baptism gods and mans seal too . for according to the manner of sealing covenants which are mutuall as the one party seals with his own seal , so the other party seals with his own distinct seal ; and so if baptism be gods seal , the party bap●ized should have another seal to signifie his engagement . . mr. b. tells me , that grotius de jure belli , and other lawyers will inform me , that the very definition of a proper covenant is , that it must be a mutuall engagement . but he doth not tell me where it is in grotius , nor in what other lawyer . i have lightly looked over the ● . chapter of the second book of grot. de jure belli ac pacis , which is , de promissis , and some other following , and find not that which mr. b. saith , but find ch . . sect . . that he determines that of an infant is no promise , because the use of reason is required to a promise , and therefore in infant-baptism there is no restipulation or mutuall engagement , and so no proper covenant by mr b. his doctrine . but what ever other lawyers say , i am mistaken if it be not usuall with the lawyers in conveyances to use this expression , that the seller is said to covenant to and with such a person , who makes no restipulation or reciprocall engagement . and both in the scottish covenant , and in our solemn league and covenant , i find covenanters engaged to do many things without any restipulation or reciprocall engagement , and therefore do not conceive it necessary to a covenant that it be a mutual engagement , or with restipulation . mr. b. adds , . if it were the absolute promise of the first grace that is sealed by the sacraments , then the sacraments must be given to no man , or to all men : but that is absurd , therefore so is the former . the consequent is manifest , because that absolute promise or prophesie is onely of the elect , and that before regeneration . now no man hath any sign given him , so much as probable by which to judge of the unregenerate elect , so that it must either be given to all or none . answer . the whole frame of this argument depends on these mistakes , . that a person hath title to baptism by vertue of its interest in gods covenant of grace , and that accordingly a minister is to baptize . . that a probable sign of such interest warrants the baptism of the party so interessed , which i have often proved to be false , and that nothing but manifest discipleship certainly known to the baptizer , warrants him to do it . and indeed if we must baptize according to that rule of persons interest in the covenant , probably signified . salvages in new england are to be baptized upon the probable signes they give of being wrought upon by a sermon afore they know and profess the faith of christ , and few or no infants are baptized , there being either no sign given to any man of their being in covenant , or at most but of very few of the baptized . mr. b. ap. to his aphor. p. . if a minister adventure to administer it upon probability , then should he be guilty of proph●ning the ordinance . . saith mr b. or we may argue thus : it may be known to whom that covenant belongs which is sealed by the sacraments . but it cannot be known ( before the fulfilling , no not at all ) to whom ( particularly ) that absolute promise doth belong ; therefore that abs●lut promise is not it which is sealed by the sacraments . answer . . by denying the major . . by retorting the argument thus , it may be known to whom that covenant belongs which is sealed by the sacraments : but it cannot be known ordinarily in this to whom ( particularly ) the conditionall promise of the covenant of grace belongs , for to none ( particularly ) besides the elect belongs the promise of justification , adoption and glorification . therefore the conditionall promise is not it which is sealed by the sacraments . . sai●h mr. b. if ( according to mr t. his judgement ) that absolute promise must be fulfilled to a man before he be capable of receiving the sacraments which are seals of the covenant of grace , then is it not that absolute promise which is the covenant of grace sealed to by the sacraments : but according to mr. t. his judgment ) that absolute promise must be fulfilled to a man before he be capable of ( a right ) receiving the sacraments , which are seals of the covenant of grace : therefore it is not that absolute promise which is the covenant so sealed to . the antecedent is evident , ●f you consider , . that it is the promise of the first renewing grace which we speak of ( for all after grace is promised conditionally ) . that mr. t. pleadeth that believers onely are disciples , and such disciples onely must be baptized . . that faith is a part of this first grace abs●lutely promised ( as is commonly judged ) the giving of a new soft heart , is the giving the seed of all graces , and so of faith . the consequence is evident , because the mercy promised in the covenant which is sealed , is not given before the first sealing : but the mercy promised in that absolute promise is ( according to mr. t. and in part the truth ) given before the first sealing of the covenant of grace ; therefore , &c. god doth not promise a seal to a man that hath a new heart to give him a new heart , or to a man that is a believer , that he will give him to be a believer ; except we speak of the continuance or increase of faith and newnesse which is not the thing in question . answer . the consequence of this argument may be denied , and the reason of it also : for according to the apostle , abraham received the sign of circumcision , a seal of the righteousnesse of faith , which he had yet being uncircumcised ; rom ▪ . if then the sealing of the covenant of grace by baptism be the same with the sealing of the righteousness of faith by circumcision , rom. . ( which is the common tenent of many paedobaptists , who from this text draw a definition of sacraments , though falsly , as is shewed before ) then the mercy promised in the covenant which is sealed , is given before the first sealing . yea , if the conditionall covenant be sealed to believers now , justification which is the mercy promised in the covenant which is sealed ▪ is given before the first sealing . for a man is justified actually as soon as ever he believes , as i am confident mr. b will grant : bu● he is not regularly baptized till after his believing , therefore a believer is justified , and consequently the mercy promised in the first covenant which is sealed , is given before the first sealing , that all after grace is promised conditionally , is said by mr. b. without proof , and how inconsistent it is with the promises of perseverance , how much it undermines the doctrine of the saints perseverance , how it disables the godly to plead the promises , and takes away their comforts when they are sensible of their f●i●ings , if the after graces of recove●y after fal●s , and perseverance to the end , be promised condi●ionally , i need no● shew it here , ●i●h dr. owen hath done it amply in his treatise of perseverace , ch . ▪ , &c. dr. kendall in his sancti sanciti , ch . . and wou●d be here a digressi●n ▪ . saith mr. b. the benefits of the covenant of grace which are sealed by the sacraments , are ( by those of age ) to be received by faith . but the benefits of the absolute promise of the first grace are not to be received by faith : therefore this is not the covenant of grace so sealed . the major is evident : mr. t. saith , onely believers must be baptized as disciples : the minor is proved before . faith is part of the thing promised , and we do not by faith receive our first faith , or our power to believe . answer . it is not i onely , but mr. b. himself , who speaks in effect what i say , plain script . pr●of , &c. pag. , ● . of the first edition when he saith , that in the insti●ution , and every example of baptism through all the bible , the first grace is prerequisite as a condition , is undeniable , as might be manifest by a recitall of the particular texts could we stay so long upon it . john required a profession of repentance in those he baptized . jesus first made them disciples , and then by his apostles baptized them , john . . the solemn institution of it as a standing ordinance to the church , which tells us fully the end is in matth . , . go and disciple me all nations , baptizing them ; &c. now for the aged , a disciple and a believer are all one , mark . he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved , acts . . repent and be bap●ized every one , &c. they that gladly received his word were baptized , acts . , . the samaritans believed and were baptized both men and women . simon himself believed and was baptized , acts . , . if thou believest with all thy heart thou maist ( be baptized ) and he answered , i believe , &c. paul believed upon ananias instruction , and then was bapt●zed , acts . , . & . , . & . . & . , , &c. you see it is still required , that at all age do first believe and then be baptized . i acknowledge he puts in these words [ for the aged at all age ] by which he would prevent the inference from his own words against infants baptism , intimating that there are an institution and examples of infant baptism elsewhere . but this is but a vain caution , when his own proposition is , that in the institution & every example of baptism through all the bible , the first grace ( to wit faith ) is prerequisite as a condition , is undeniable . so that which he intimates in his caution , is contradictory to himself , and a palpable falshood , there being no other institution or example of baptism to any but disciples or believers in all the bible ; and therefore baptism of infants who are not believers or disciples , is a manifest abuse , deviation from christ and his apostles appointment and practice , by mr. b. his own words , and consequently will-worship and profanation of that ordinance . as for the present objection , i deny the major if it be universall , though mr. b. saith , it is evident , but proves it not , nor doth any concession prove i● . for though i grant persons are to be believers afore baptism , yet it doth not follow that the benefits of the covenant of grace , which is sealed by the sacraments , are to be receiv●d by fa●th , and not before . it is mr. b. his mistake , that the promise to which there is sealing , must be fulfilled af●er and not before . the contrary is manifest in abrahams circumcision , in baptism as i shewed before , and in the lords supper . for even in that very instant of mr. b. plain script proof , &c. pag. . to prove the sacrament to be a mutuall engaging sign , when he saith , receiving the elements is ●ur engaging sign , that we receive jesus christ to be our onely saviour and lord ; as giving is gods si●n that he giveth us christ : the sealing on the part of the receiver is to a thing fulfi●led , that he receives christ , and of the giver that he gives him . . saith mr. t. the covenant sealed by the sacrament , is a plainly propounded unquestion●ble covenant : but this absolute promise of the first grace is not such but very dark and doubtfull ( and the most learned cannot agree whether there be any such thing : ) ●herefore , &c. i have spoken my judgment of this in the appendix of my aphorisms . the places alledged to prove an absolute promise of the first grace , some learned divines i say do not prove it ; because he new and soft heart there mentioned , may be a further degree of newness and sof●ness , or though there be no condition there expressed , yet it is in other places , and therefore to be so understood there : to which end they cite deut. ● ▪ where god promiseth the very same blessing ( to circumcise their hearts that they may love the lord , &c. ) on a condition which is here thought to be promised absolutely . mr. t. could not understand mr. blake about this . answer . if mr ▪ b. mean by unquestionable covenant , that which no learned man hath questioned , the major is false , and must be revoked by mr. b. if he will maintain the conditionall covenant to be sealed to by the sacrament , for that hath been questioned by learned men ; who have denied the covenant of grace to be conditionall , and they think this to be a very good proof , that the holy scripture where it speakes of the new covenant , mentions the promises without condition . if he mean unquestionable de jure , which ought not to have been questioned , and which though it seem dark and doubtfull to some , yet is plainly propounded by god , and is in it self perspicuous ; the minor is false . as for what divines say , it little moves , when the scripture opposeth the new spirit and soft heart to a strong heart , as being in them before , and to which the new spirit , new heart of flesh , succeed . ezek. . . & ● , ▪ not to a lesse new or fleshly heart . and if elsewhere conditions be put and not there , the promises in those places are not proved conditionall , though to me the coditions deut. . ; , seem not to be of the promise , v. . but of the promise v. . i do not value mr. b. his judgement so much as to be drawn by it any farther than his reasons carry me , which , i take it , are the same in his appendix , with these in his mock-titled book which i have answered . i give mr baxter our new doctor sub●ilis , leave to quip me with my dulness in being grown such an old superannuated dotard , as that i could not understand mr blake , time was when i thought i could have understood as profound a doctor , but now i am content not to understand such deep notions , i should say non-sense as these ▪ disciple all , covenant all , &c : i hope i shall have by divine assistance , so much understanding as to demonstrate the frivolousness of those dictates in mr blakes and mr baxters writings , whereby they have befooled the men of this age , and my strange and wild doctrine , as mr b. calls it , will supplant mr b. his familiar and tame doctrine , without speaking like mr sal●marsh and the antinomians , and my speech about mr m , will be justified after the clearing my self from the fourth imagined error , to which i now hast . sect . xxxv . my speeeh about gods sealing to none but believers , is cleared from mr baxters objections . mr b. plain scripture , &c. pag . calls it my fourth error that i affirm in my apolog. pag. , . that every right administration of baptism is not gods sealing . actually it sealeth not but when it is administred to a believer . it may be called a right act of the administrator according to gods appointment , but not gods sealing , &c. and for confutation saith thus . it must be understood that our question is not about the internall seal of the spirit , but onely the externall seal of the sacrament , which are two distinct things . the nature of this seal , and whether it seal conditionally or absolutely , i have fully opened in the appendix of my aphorisms of justification , whither i must desire the reader to turn and read it , ●o save me the labor of doing it here . answer . that these imagined errors of mine about the nature of the covenant and seals are not the root of my pretended error about baptism , is abundantly shewed before ; and it hath been often affirmed by me , that the reason of my opposing infant-baptism is , because it agrees not with the institution and e●amples of baptism ( which mr b : his words cited in the next section before verifie ) in the holy scripture , and the arguments from the covenant and seal , and the pretended law of visible church-membership , no way extant unrepealed , of which the apostles practice shewes they were ignorant , though many godly and learned men have embraced them , are meerly an humane invention ▪ that there is no error of mine in what i hold about the covenant , much lesse dangeeous error , is already shew ; i shall now shew the subtilty of mr b : his arguings against my speech about gods sealing . according to his direction i have read over his sayings in his appendix in answer to the ninth question , and what mr blake excepted against him , and his reply to mr blake in his apologie , sect , &c. and the issue of my thoughts in this , . that there is nothing but jangling and uncertainty in their debates about the imaginary sealing by the sacrament , it being not agreed what is sealed , the outward or inward covenant , what is the syllogism , whose parts are to be sealed , or what part thereof is to be sealed , the major , minor , or conclusion , nor how ●t is sealed conditionally or absolutely , actually or aptitudinally , nor to whom the sealing is , whether to every communicant or onely to penitent believers . and in my reading of other authors● i find much uncertainty in their determinations about this pretended sealing , and the thing sealed , which i have briefly touched before . mr. humphrey in his rejoynder to dr. drake , part . . sect. , . part . . sect. , . tells us , that in the nature of it the sacrament is gods seal onely , not metaphorically or tropically , but formally , not a seal of our faith but of gods assuring the tenor of it , not onely mans particular interest absolutly , but conditionally to all , and that as well the threatning of condemnation in c●se of unbelief , as the promise of righteousness in case of faith , the receiver of the sacrament seals not by way of assuring , or conveying , but engagement ●o the condition on his part yet not in esse , but in fieri agreeing to the terms of christ pr●posed , expecting salvation if ever he have grace to perform his engagements , and yeildeth to be damned if not . . that the dig●adiations of pae●obaptists one against another , are by gods just judgement usefull to shew their iniquity in ●ressing o●hers to subscribe to their dictates , which they oppose one anoth●r in . . that they do evidently prove that the argument is not good which th●y b●ing for infant-baptism to prove their covenant-right to the seal . for if infants be onely in the outward covenant , and baptism seal another covenant , then title to this seal comes not by bare interest in that . if it be a mutuall engaging seal , then it is no seal of an infant who doth not ingage ; if it seal the condi●ional covenant , and it belongs to all , then all may be sea●ed , if covenant interest intitle to the seal , if baptism seal absolutely to none till he beli●ve , then baptism is no compleat seal , and so no sacrament to a man till he believe ; if it seal the threatning as well as the promise , th●n those sh●uld have the sacrament to whom the threatning belongs , as well as those to whom the promise ; if it seal absolutely onely gods generall truth , then it seals nones particular interest , and then none can claim title to it . . that most of their speeches are meer dictates without shew of proof , and that from the metaphor of the seal of the covenant , which the scripture no where useth , and mr b. thinks it the way to lose our selves and not to edifie , to make it the subject of tedious disputations , and to lay too great a stress on it . as for what he wisheth me in his apol. against mr. bl. sect. . to take notice of it , i reply to what he saith against my distinction of actuall & aptitudinal seal , i think it not worth while to reply to it , si●h i used that distinction onely to shew how bellarmin might be answered without mr bl●kes way of conditionall seal : it is little material whether the sacrament be called a seal actuall or aptitudinall , or no seal at all , the explication of my meaning before given is enough to justifie my words against any thing mr b. hath or can object . as for that which he saith , that the question is not about the internall seal of the spirit , but onely the externall seal of the sacrament , which are two distinct things , i answer , the question is about my words whether they be true , which deny that god sealeth in every right administration of baptism , and affirm that he sealeth not but when it is admistred to a believer : and though it be true the seal of baptism and the spirit be two distinct things , yet i say god never sealeth by baptism without the spirit , nor can baptizing without the sealing of the spirit be rightly according to scripture language and truth , called gods sealing . let 's see what mr. b. opposeth . his opinion i prove unsound , thus , . if the sacrament rightly administred to an hypocrite , have all in it that is essentiall to gods actuall sealing , then it is his actuall sealing , &c. but , &c. therefore , &c. a seal is an engaging or obliging sign , or at least a testifying . he that actually useth a sign to such an end , doth actually seal . now . god useth this sign . . and to this end . he useth the sign while his ministers use it in his name at his command ; for immediatly he never useth or applyeth it to any . . he commandeth it to be used to this end , to engage himselfe to make good his promises . for . to what other end should god command them ? else he should command them to be used to one end to one , and to another end to another , which cannot be shewed that he hath done , ( i speake of the end of the ordinance , not of the event which god hath decreed shall follow . ) answer . the minor of this argument is denied . and to the proof i say , . that it is not alwayes true , that he that actually useth a sign to such an end , doth actually seal . for if actuall sea●ing be actuall assuring ●as it is conceived to be 〈◊〉 rom. . . whence this phrase is taken ) the actuall sealing must be denominated , not onely from the end but also from the event , as if god use a sign to comfort , he doth not actually comfort except the person be comforted . . that it is not universally true , that god useth the sign while his ministers use it in his name at his command , but then when they represent his person . as for instance , when aaron offered sacrifice , burned incense , &c. which were to signifie christ , they did these things in gods name , that is , to his honor , at his command , yet i do not conceive it can be said that god did offer sacrifice or burn incense . and for baptism , though i confesse it is commanded by god to be done by his ministers , and that it is to be done into his name , yet it is no where intimated as if they did it in stead of god , or christ , as their act . . but let it be granted that baptism done right●y according to gods command by his ministers , is his act ; how is it proved that it is used by god to this end ▪ to engage himself to make good his promises ? for my part i read not any where in scripture , that god used baptism for this end , to engage himself to make good his promises , nor doth mr. b. prove that end by any passage of scripture . and to his reasons i answer , . to the first , though neither i nor mr. b. know any orher end , yet doth not this prove , that that is the end . besids , if i should assign no other end , yet it were enough to answer mr. b. his question to say , it is to try obedience , as in abrahams offering his son . but mr. b. might easily know if he would heed the scripture , that there are other ends of god in commanding baptism ; to wit , the owning of christ as our lord , cor. . . gal. . joyning all christians into one body , cor. . . ephes. . · the , and atricle of the curch of england acknowledge this to be one end of baptism , to be a sign of profession , and to be a mark of difference of christians from others . to the second , though it were granted to be absurd , that god should command the sacraments to be used to one end to one , and to another end to another , yet this doth no whit prove that this is the end which mr. b ▪ assigns for the fore-going reasons . yet sure if infant-baptism were granted , baptism must needs be to one end , to wit , a sign of profession to the aged , which it is not , nor can be to an infant . lastly if it yeelded that the end of baptism were to engage god to make good his promisses , it is a good argument against mr. b. t●at god seals not actually to an hyppocrite , sith he doth not promise , and co●sequently not to engage himselfe , by the s●crament to make good his promise unto them . but mr. b. adds thus . . if the promise be to o●hers besides believers , then so is the seal ( for to whom god promiseth , to them he engage●h himselfe to performe , but the promise is to others therefore &c. this will be evident if it be once understood that it is only the conditional promise which sealeth by the sacraments [ if thou believe in the lord iesus thou shalt be saved ] ▪ for this promise is made to unbelievers , though the good promised is not to be enjoyed by any ●hat performe not the condition . thus i have fully proved in the foresaid appendix to my aphorisms : and will fall under the next question . answer : i read , tha● to abraham & his seed were the promises made or said , gal. . . that the promise through the faith of christ might be given to them that believe v. . jf ye be christs then are ye abrahams seed & heires according to the promise v. . whereby are given unto us exceeding great & pretious promises pet. ▪ . the children of the promise are counted for the seed rom. . . strangers from the covenants of promise ephes. . . but this is to use mr. b. his own words of my doctrine , str●ng and wild dostrine to say that god promises to unbelievers , the promise of salvation is made to unbelievers , that to them he engageth himselfe to performe : nor do i see how he can avoid antinomianism , which he so much abhors , to wit the justification of infidels , if i● be true , that this promise is made to unbelievers . nor is he relieved by saying , the promise is made to them though the good promised is not to be enjoyed , for what is this but to say the promise is made to them by god , but not performed , which is to make god false ? nor is he relieved by saying it is made conditionally only to unbelievers ( if thou believe thou shalt be justified . ) for this is equivalent to this he that bel●eveth shall be justified , and so the promise is made only to the believer : though it may be said to be offered , tendered , propounded as a law , or ordinance of god to unbelievers . yet neither scripture language , nor any other approved au●hors speech , will i concieve warrant this speech , god promiseth , engageth himself to performe , this pormise ( of salvation , justification , ) is made to unbelievers . as for his dictates in his appendix , and the next question , the futility of them is already shewed . he goes on thus . . if god do no more in his actual calling to believers , than he doth when the sacrament is rightly applied to hypocrites , then he actually sealeth to hypocrites . the major is proved by the enumeration on the severall acts . . god maketh the promise . . he commandeth ministers to publish it . . he hath instituted the sacraments as mutual engaging signes or seals . he commandeth ministers to deliver or apply them to those that profess their consent , and desire to enter or renew the covenant , ( this i need not stand to prove , beeing mr. t. here yeildeth that the giving of the sacrament is the right act of the administrator , which it could not be except it were commanded ) as also the initiating seal to the children of those believing parents that will enter him into the covenant , as is proved before . now what act more than these doth god performe to the elect or believers . answ. it was assayed to be proved before , but not proved that god commandeth ministers to deliver or apply the lords supper to them that desire to renew their covenant , or baptism to believers infant children ; what i said of the right act of the administrator i spake perticularly of baptism . nor is it true that god maketh promise to hypocrits , or commandeth ministers to publish it , and how is it from scripture speech , or truths to say , god hath instituted the sacraments as mutual engaging signs or seals , and how destructive this is to infant baptism is shewed before . to this puestion , i answer , the witness of the spirit is a further act of god necessary to his sealing as i meant my words , and express my self in my postscript . sest : . pag . what saith mr. b. to this ? jf it be said that he add the seal of his spirit ; that is nothing to the question , seeing we are speaking only of the outward seal . answ. though mr. b. spake only of the outward seal , yet he should have spoken of the inward also . if he would have opposed my saying , he should have proved that god actually seals by the outward sacrament without the inward testimony of the spirit , till then , he spake nothing to the question . but saith he . jf it be said that he assureth the conscience of the truth of the promise , and maketh the outward seal effectual . i answ. . that is still the inward seal , and so nothing to this . answ. he should rather have said it is all in all to this , sith my words denie gods actual sealing withou● ▪ . that is the making of the seal successful , which is nothing to the sealing : if you seal a deed of gift to three men and one believeth it , and another doth not believe it , and another doth half believe it , yet this doth not make it no sealing to him that believeth not ; you seal equally to them all . answ. . however it be in mens sealing , yet gods actual sealing is still effectual , they seal only to the eye , he to the heart , cor. . , . . he makes no deed of gift but to believers , nor seals to any but them ephes. . . and ● . . rom. . . and . , . . and god doth not alwayee assure the elect or believers , but they oft conclude hardlyer against themselves than others do that have . so that i desire mr. t to produce any one act which god performes to believers , and not to others , which may appropriate the name of sealing to them . answ. though god do not alwayes actually seal to believers , yet this doth neither prove that his actually sealing is uneffectual , nor to any others . mr. b. hath answere to his demand , and were it not that i much pitty the souls of many ministers and poeple who are by this notion of [ seal of the covenant of grace ] partly perverted to uphold and continue as manifest a corruption as ever was in the christian church , i mean infant-baptism , being by all , most by mr. b. confessed to be without institution and example in bible , parly perplexed about delivering and recieving the lords-supper , it would much trouble me that i have spent so much time de lanâ caprinâ , a new devised notion ▪ but overshooes over boots , i must needs add few lines more in answer to mr. b. whose page ● saith thus . and by this the former question about sealing conditionally may be decided : which mr. t. darkneth with a m●ze of words ; and addeth [ that god seals not conditionally in this sense , as if he left it to a mans liberty to whome he had sealed to agnize or recognize that sealing or to free themselves if they please , and so nullifie all : yet so as to afford them awhile the favour and privileige of being in covenant with him , which mr. m. he concieves meant by his conditional sealing ] heare are more things heapt up , then will be satisfied in one answer : therefore i say . it is improperly called liberty of the will which consists in an indifferency to good or evils as gibeouf and bradwardin &c. will teach you . . more improp●rly is the nullif●ing of the covenant called a freeing themselves which is an enslaving themselves . . and the violating of the covenant is not fitly called a nullifying of it . . yet if you will needs use those terms ; i say that god sealeth the conditional promise to thousands that shall perish , and le●veth it to their own choise , whether they will recognize and continue , and be faithfull to the covenant ( giving them onely the common grace : ) which men do prove unfaithful to , & break the covenant , and so p●rish for treading the blood of the covenant under foot . and doth mr. t. thinke that no wicked men perish as covenant-breake●s with christ ? answer . i am so used to mr. b. his snarling at me , that i think it not worth while to take notice of all the noise he makes , and methinks a wise reader should be no whit moved with these frivolous accusations of me , as darkning the thing with a maze of words ( which is a pretty phrase ) which are very few and very plain , intimating as if ▪ i would needs use those terms though improperly , which were used of necessity when i was to set down m m. his meaning , not as mine , but his , even his very expressions , except it be to observe the quarrelsom vein he was in when he wrot that book against me . if the expression be not proper , let him blame mr. m. yet let it be observed , that the speech of the nullifying the covenant , was neither mine nor mr. ms , but nullifying all , which is to be understood of the sealing and priviledge mentioned . as for his reference of me to gibeo●f and bradwardin to shew the impropriety of the use of the term [ liberty ] i am not likely to be taught by them , except i had the books ( one of which i have lost by the plunder of above three hundred bookes never recovered ) and mr. b. had given me better directions where to find my lesson . i conceive it liberty of will properly so called , whereby men are moved to chuse evill , though the persons be in a state of servitude , john . . else it were not penall to chuse evill . and for what mr. b asserts , i have shewed before that gods covenant of grace is neither made nor sealed by god to any but the elect ; and i say , that though wicked men may perish as covenant-breakers with christ , that is , as breaking their own covenant or promise with christ , yet no man ever breaks the covenant of grace , that is gods new covenant or promise of saving grace in christ , it being the very end of the making of the new covenant , that whereas the old occasioned god to complain of israel as not continuing in it , there might be another covenant established or made a law on better promises , that it might be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which we read faultless , but more rightly plaintless , that is , not occasioning god to complain by reason of the breach of it , as the author to the hebrews plainly shews , heb. . , , , , , &c. and this is expressly called gods covenant to turn away ungodliness from jacob , rom. . , . so that to deny the promise of the first grace of regeneration , conversion , or effectuall calling to be properly gods covenant of grace , and to make a conditionall after to be gods covenant of grace , and to say gods covenant of grace may be broken , and persons with whom it is made not continue therein , is to alter or deny the new covenant , and to make voyd the grace of god and the comfort of his people , and to my understanding to symbolize with arminians . mr. b. adds , . it is unworthily said , that god affordeth these but a while the favour and priviledge of being in covenant with him , seeing it is their own wilfull act to cast themselves out of this priviledge ; they might have continued it , and proceeded further in it if they would . answer . i agree that it is unworthily said ; but by this censure though he aim at me , yet heedlesly he hits mr. m , whose speech this was . but whoever be in the fault , it seems while the rod is in mr. b. his hand , i must be lashed . yet mr. b. his reason is so far from proving it unworthily said , that it seems rather to be worthily said , that god affords them but a while the favour of being in covenant with him , sith it is their own wilfull act to cast themselves out i rather think it unworthily said , because god should fail them to perform his covenant of putting his fear into their heart , so as that they shall not depart from him ; nor his covenant be everlasting contrary to jer. . . . saith mr. b. yet withall we affirm , that to his elect god freely giveth , as leave , so a will to enter sincerely into covenant with him , and faithfully to keep covenant , and so the continuance of the priviledges of the covenant answer . if mr. b. had as the scripture doth , ascribed this to gods covenant , and understood the difference between the covenant of grace under the gospel , and the nationall covenant made with the people of israel , much of the opposition between us had been saved . but sith things are as they are , i am resolved with gods assistance to try his strength in what is yet unanswered of his second main argument , after i have examined the remainder of what paedobaptists say after the old way of arguing from covenant and seal . sect . xxxvi . christianity is not by birth , or the church , nor the church at civill corporations , as mr. m. his equivocation in the use of the term covenant of grace . i return now to mr. m. whom i meet in his defence , pag . passing over my six arguments , and thus answering me , i joyn with you that it is an error to say , that all infants of believers indefinitely are under the saving graces of the covenant , for although i find abundance of promises in the scripture , of gods giving saving grace unto the posterity of his people , and that experience teacheth us , that god uses to continue his church in their posterity , and that gods election is more among their seed than others , yet neither to jew nor gentile was the covenant so made at any time , that the spirituall part and grace of the covenant should be conferred upon them all . which if true , then all have not interest in the saving grace of the covenant , but so many as are elect , and then the baptisme of them all cannot be deduced thence : and for the conditionall covenant , it is either to all , or believers onely , and baptism by it must be of all men or onely believers . and for a third covenant , which they call outward , mr. baxter against mr. blake , pag. , , and elsewhere before cited , hath proved it to be a signment , and consequently there is no such to be sealed by baptism which may justifie baptizing of believers infants , as their priviledge . nor , if the covenant of saving grace be not made to all believers seed , can the certainty of their salvation , dying in infancy , be thence gathered , nor is the promise of salvation made to a believer and his seed universally , then is the anabaptists sentence no more bloody than mr. ms , then do mr bailee and others , in pri , nt and pulpit clamorously abuse them , accusing them of cruelty to infants of believers , & robbing parents of comfort concerning them , when in truth we are as favourable in our sentence of infants as they , and do give as much comfort as we truly can . as for the visible membership which he ascribes to infants of believers in the christian church , it will appear to be but a fancy in the examining what mr. b. brings for it . i objected , that if the child of a christian be a christian , then christians are born christians , not made christians ; whereas it was wont to be a current saying , christiani non nascuntur sed fiunt . and if the covenant of grace be a birth-priviledge , how are they children of wrath by nature ? to this mr. m. answers , it is his birth-right to be so esteemed , to be reputed within the covenant of grace , or a member of the visible church , and alledgeth , gal. . . rom. . . naturall branches , that is visible church-members . to which i say , were i to write as a geographer , i should reckon the people of england old and young for christians , but as a divine i should not so speak : forasmuch as the scripture no where calls any other christians than disciples and professors of christianity , acts , . & , . pet. . . the term [ jew by nature , gal. . . ] is not as much as visible church-member by nature , but by natural birth of that nation : nor is the term [ naturall branch , rom. . . ] as much as visible church-members by nature , but onely descendents as branches from abraham the root , that is the father by naturall generation . to be a visible church-member i never took to be all one with ; to be in the covenant of grace , but to be in the covenant of grace to be the same with a child of the promise , which is expressly contra-distinguished to a child of the flesh , rom. . . the distinction of the outward and inward covenant is shewed before to be vain , and to serve onely for a shift . i said in my examen christianity is no mans birth-right , and this i proved in that no where in scripture is a person called christian , but he that is so made by preaching . i said , it is a carnall imagination , that the church of god is like to civill corporations , as if persons were admitted to it by birth , which my words shew to be meant of the church of christians invisible , as well as visible : nor is it to the purpose to prove the contrary that mr. m. tells me , the jewish church was in that like civil corporations . for i grant it was , the whole nation being the same politick and ecclesiastick body , but this church-state was carnall as their ordinances ▪ whereas the christian church hath another constitution by preaching the gospel . mr. m. his cavill at my words , [ in this all is done by free election of grace ] had been prevented , if the following words had been recited and according to gods appointment : nor is god tied , or doth tie himself in the erecting and propagating his church to any such carnall respects , as discent from men , christianity is no mans birth right . ] mr. m. shews not that god hath made it so in his christian church by any ordinance , that the child should be baptized with the parent , and therefore the objection still stands good . the speech of mr. rutherf●rd ▪ are mr. cotton . and not to be reconc●led without making contradictories true . my answer bea●s not against the reason of the holy ghost gen. . . nor is it true but that the holy-ghost makes this his argument why he would have the male children circumcised , and thereby reckon'd to be in covenant with him , because their parents are in covenant with him , but it is refused by m's . own concession pag. . that the command was the formal reason of their being circumcised . yet this was not it which i called a carnal imagination , but the speech that it is in the church of god as in civil corporations . mr. m. pag. takes upon him to defend his speech , that in the time of the jewes , if god did reject the parents out of the covenant , the children were cast out with them . against which i excepted that parents might be idolatries , apostates from iudaism , draw up the foreskin again , and yet the children were to be circumcised , which he denies not but saith , is it not evident in the iewes at this day , that they and their children are cast out together . i grant this , but this doth not make good his own assertion or overthrow mine . then he tels me , if i would shew the falsity of it i should have given some instance ; not of parents , who remain gods people in external profession , though their lives might possibly be very wicked , but of some who were cast off from being visible professors , and yet their infants remain in the visible society of the church , or of some who were visibly thus taken in , and their infants left out . answ. if he meanes this of the christian church it is easie to give instances of infants of those who have turned papists ▪ mahometans , excommunicate persons , who are accounted baptiz●ble by vertue of their ancestors faith , or for defect thereof because nation●s ●s mr. rutherfurd affirms in his temperate plea ch . . concl . . arg . · but mr. m. his speech was of the time of the iewes , and of their times before christ he must needs say the same ●●less he will acknowledg idolaters such as ahab , ahaz , &c. to have remained still gods people in external profession . he concluds the reply to the fift section of my examen thus , but instead of this you still go on in your wonted equivocation of the word covenant of grace taking it only of the covenant of saving grace , not including the external way of administration with it . answ. i do confess i do so take the word covenant of grace , not knowing any other covenant of grace under the gospel ▪ but that which is of saving grace and concieving i should speak false , and nonsense if i should include in the covenant of grace the external way of administration . but to charge me with wanted equivocation whom he accuseth elswhere for destinguishing so much , and equivocating in the use of a terme only one way ●s a ridiculous charge , it being all one as to accuse a man of nonsense because he speaks good sense , to say i do equivocate because i do not equivocate . for he that useth a word onely in one sense doth not aquivocate , equivocation being when a word is used in more senses than one . falla●ia aquivocationis est quando ex unius vocis multiplici fignificatione sophisticè concluditur . dr. prideaux hypomn . log : tract : . c. . sect. . arist : sophist : ele●ch . l. . c. . reckons 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or equivocation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when with the same names and vowels we signifie not the same thing . which evidently proves mr ▪ m. guilty of equivocating from his own words . for in the first conclusion of his sermon he distinguisheth the covenant of grace for substance ( which he makes the covenant of saving grace ) from the externall way of administration , and yet blames me for not including it . and if he by covenant of grace include the way of externall administra●ion , how could he say in his sermon , pag. . in the recapitulation of his two first conclusions , if the covenant be the same , and the children belong to it . sure he will not say the way , of externall administration is the same : wherefore from his own words he is deprehended to equivocate in the term covenant of grace , in the first conclusion meaning by it the covenant of saving graces , and distinguishing it from the externall administration , but in the second conclusion when he saith , children belong to it , he understands not the inward but the outward covenant , not the covenant of saving grace , bu● the way of externall administration . and yet he dare not say , the ●nfant children of gentile christian believers belong to it , that is the same way of externall administration , for that is in the jewish legall rites . asemblys confess . of faith , chap. . art. . therefore he sophistically equivocates in the use of that term , which is his frequent manner , and yet he is not ashamed to accuse me of that , of which his own words acquit me , as if he had learned the artifice in scolding to call another that first of which himself might be detected . nor is mr. m. clear from equivocating in what follows , in which i find mu●h confusednesse and ambiguity . chap. xxxvii . that the promise gen. . . proves not an externall priviledge of visible church-membership , and initiall seal to infants of gentile believers , as mr. m. asserts after twenty pages spent about the explication of his second conclusion , having varied it five or six times , and as i have shewed in every of them still speaking ambiguously even then when he tells us , he speaks as plain as he can possibly , i pitch upon this which is pag. . as his second conclusion , having said , infants of believers are made free according to abrahams copy , he thus expounds himself , true , according to the promise made to abraham , i will be a god to thee and thy seed , that look as abraham , the proselytes and their seed upon their visible owning of god and his covenant , had this visible priviledge for their posterity that they should be accounted to belong to gods kingdom and houshold with their parents , so it is here . by which words it appears , thar mr. m. took this to be abrahams copy ( as he calls it , that according to the promise made to abraham , i will be a god to thee and thy seed , abraham and his seed , the proselytes and their seed upon their ( the parents ) visible owning of god and his covenant , had this visible priviledge for their posterity , that they should be accounted to belong to godt kingdom and houshold with their parents . . that so it is in the christian church by vertue of that promise i will be thy god and the god of thy seed , gen. . ▪ gentile believers upon their visibly owning of god and his covenant , have this visible priviledge for their posterity , that they should be accounted to belong to gods kingdom and houshold with their parents . concerning which conclusion i say still mr. m. useth ambiguities of speech , there being divers covenants of god , to wit , the old and the new , and divers wayes of visibly owning god , as by sacrificing , circumcision , &c. by baptism , the lords supper , frequenting the church meetings of christians , &c. divers kingdoms and housholds of god , as the whole world , and his church , the visible or invisible , which might occasion various senses of mr. m. his words . but i ghesse his meaning to be thus ; as the jewes and proselytes being circumcised , their children were to be so also : so gentile-believers being baptized , their children are to be baptized as visible church-members ; which being the same with the antecedent of mr. m. his enthymeme , and the consequent , it is evident mr. m. his argument is a meer trifling tau●ology , as i have often said . but i shall not insist on it , having in my apologie , sect. . and elswhere shewed it , that which i shall consider chiefly in his glosse on gen. ● . . which to me seems as ( or more ) absurd than the glosse of papists , thou art peter , and on this rock will i build my church : i. e. the bishop of rome shall be my vicar generall of the oecumenicall church . for . according to mr. m. his glosse , [ thee , that is , abraham , to whom the words were spoken ] is put for without all rule of grammar or divinity , or as they speak in logick supponit by [ every jew , or proselyte , and every believer or christian jew or gentile , who doth not visibly own god and his covenant . ] . according to this glosse the naturall seed of proselytes though but visibly owning god and his covenant , are called abrahams seed , without any use of scripture , which speak of no other seed of abraham but . christ , gal. . . by excellency so called , . by grace the elect , rom. . . . believers , rom. . ● , , , . gal. . . by nature , gen. ▪ . psal ▪ ● . . gen. . . . neither o● which are proselytes who do onely own god and his covenant . . the promise of god to be a god to abrahams seed is thus expounded , the naturall seed of abraham and the naturall seed of proselytes , and of gentile christians visibly owning god and his covenant , shall have this visible priviledge , that they should be accounted to belong to gods kingdom and houshold with their parents . in which paraphrase i note what he calls to be accounted to belong to gods kingdom a visible priviledge . now [ to be accounted ] i must refer to some person who doth so account , and the accounting must be either an act of opinion , or science , or faith , and then to be accounted to belong to gods kingdom , is not a visible priviledg , but invisible , it being in the thoughts of anonother , and the sense should be , i will be a god to thy seed , that is men as v. . administrators shall in their thoughts take proselytes and their children to belong to my kingdom , or it is some outward trans●unt act , and then it is an initial seal , or i cannot conceive what it should be : if an initial seal either of circumcision or baptism , if either of these , then this promise [ i will be thy god and the god of thy seed ] hath this sense , i will bring it to passe that thou , thy seed , proselytes , believers of the gentiles and their seed , even infants , shall be circumcised or baptized . if any can make any other sense of the words , i shall be his debtor . and if this be the sense , then the promise is made a pre●iction of infant-circumcision and baptism , which whether it be not a ridiculous exposition , i leave it to any considerate man to judge . the apostle , rom . , , . where he expounds this very scripture , understands being a god , of saving grace according to election , and by abrahams seed the elect onely . rom. , . , justifying of believers by faith , gal. . . . inheritance and blessing to believers thro●gh christ jesus . our lord christ , luke , , , . of being the children of god and of the resurrection . mr. m. his self in his sermon , pag. . makes these words a promise of salvation to the infants of believers dying in their infancy . pag. . he saith , the substance of the covenant on god● part was to be abrahams god , and the god of his seed , to be an all-sufficient portion , to be an all-sufficient reward for him , to give jesus christ to him , and righteousness with him , both of justification and sanctification , and everlasting life : and this he distinguisheth from the administration of the covenant . yea in his defence of his sermon , pag. . he conceives the right allegation of an expression of cameron , that circumcision did seale primarily the temporall promise , sanctification secondarily , to have an untoward look , as being inc●ngruous to a covenant of grace in christ to ratifie temporall blessings , which they may have that shall have no portion in christ. hath it not then a more untoward look to make this pretended visible privilege to proselytes children though but visibly owning god and his covenan● , of having an initiall seal circumcision and baptism communicated to them , meant by the promise , i will be thy god and the god of thy seed ▪ gen. . . much more to call this the copy of abraham the father of believers ? not that i deny temporall promises in that covenant , which i have proved to be mixt , but i allege these passages onely to show the inconsistency of mr. m. his speeches . besi●es , the promise were not true so expounded ; for if this were the sense ; i will be the god of the posterity of proselytes owning god and his covenant , that they shall be accounted to belong to gods kingdom and his houshold with their parents , then god doth promise that visible privilege to them ( for the words are a promise of an event , not a declaration of a right , and show what god would do , not what they might claim ) which in many he performs not , there being may of the seed of proselytes , that never had the privilege , and many of the children of christian gentile believers , who never had the visible privilege of being accounted to belong to gods kingdom , whereas the word of god must be so expounded that it do not fall , as about this very text the apostle resolves , rom. . . mr. m. defence part , . pag. . saith , it was not a personall privilege to abraham , no nor to abraham , isaac , and jacob to have their posterity taken into covenant by vertue of that promise , i will be the god of thee and thy seed , and p. . this i add to make it more clear , that that promise gen. . i will be the god of thee and of thy seed , is a gospel promise , which from age to age holds forth some benefits even to the naturall seed of believers . answer . . what mr. m. means by taking into covenant , is somewhat doubtfull to me by reason of his using the term covenant sometimes for the outward covenant or administration , sometimes for the promise of god , and confounding these terms [ taking into covenant , being in covenant , belonging to the covenant , being covenanters , entring into covenant ] sometimes meaning these terms of the promise of grace , sometimes of the initiall seal termed by him the covenant , and taking into covenant , being in covenant , belonging to the covenant , sometimes being understood , ( as they should always be ) in order to gods act , who alone takes into covenant , and puts a man into covenant with himself ; but frequently , though abusively , by another mans act , a● the administrators act of circumcision and baptism , very seldom of being in covenant , or belonging to the covenant by the circumcised or baptized persons own act of promise , though in respect of it onely , in right speech , a person is said to be a covenant●● , or to enter into covenant . of which thing i have often , though in vain complained , it causing obscurity which a man who is a teacher of others should avoid . but concerning the promise , gen. . i will be a god to thee and thy seed after thee in their generations . . i deny that abrahams naturall posterity were taken into covenant , that is , circumcised , ( as i conceive he means ) by vertue of that promise , as i have often proved , and is in effect confessed by mr. m. defence pag . when he saith , the formall reason of their being circumcised , was the command of god. . i deny that under the term [ thee ] is meant any other than abrahams individual person . . i deny that under the term thy seed , is ever ●eant in scripture the naturall seed of proselytes , or christian believing gentiles . . i deny that by the promise , i wil be the god of thy seed , can be concluded that which mr m. asserts , that th●s promise gen. . . i will be the god of thee and of thy seed , is a gospel promise , w●i●h from age to age holds forth some benefits even to the natural seed of believer , or that this was abrahams copy , that upon his and the proselytes visibly owning god and his covenant , their posterity should have this visible privilege , that they should be accounted to belong visibly to gods kingdom and his houshold with their parents . nor doth mr. m. prove this sense of that promise , gen . . either from the words , or their coherence , or by comparing it with any other scripture as yeelding that exposition of it elswhere : but saith something pag. , . of his defence , to which ( though i have answered it sufficiently in my postscript to mr. blake , sest . . pag. . ) yet i repeat it with addition , because much of pleading of paedobaptists is hence . first , saith he , though abraham was the father of the faithful , and so in some sense [ the root as you elsewhere call him ] yet the covenant was made with him for his faiths sake , and believers are his children , and heires , and pertake of those priviledges and promises which were made to him : and therefore look as abrahams faith justified him before god , and gave him interest in the spiritual graces of the covenant , and none but himself , yer it was so beneficial and advantagious to his children , that for his sake they should be accounted to belong to gods kingdome and houshold , and partake of the external priviledges of it , and thereby be trained up under the discipline of it , and so be fitted for spiritual privledges and graces which god doth ordinarily confer upon them , who are thus tra●ned up , so shall it be with them who become followers of abrahams faith , ans. . privileges of abraham in that promise [ i will be thy god and the god of thy seed ] are either evangelical belonging to abrahams spiritual seed , that is elect persons or true believers ; or domestick and political , as that of multiplying his seed , the birth of jsaac , continuation of his church in and from him in his inhereting posterity till christs comming . the birth of christ , deliverance out of egypt , possession of canaan , these belong to abrahams natural seed , yet not to all but to the inheriting , not to jshmael , nor the sons of keturah . the former all are partakers of it who follow the faith of abraham whether iews or gentiles , but none are in refference to these promises reckoned abrahams seed , but those who are real believers in christ. a proselyte owning barely god and his covenant vissibly is not either abrahams seed or partaker of the spiritual priviledges of sanctification , justification , salvation . the latter sort of promises belonged to abrahams natural posterity , yet not to all but to the ●eed inheriting , nor to all of them , but to the iewes , and in them for one of them to the line from whence after the flesh christ came . none of these were made to the bare vissible proselites and their children , though i grant their children where taken into the polli●y of israel , and were to be circumcised and to eat the passover , yet neither did this priviledge belong to them by vertue of the covenant , but the command , nor for their faiths sake as the immediate adequate reason ( for then these shou●d have belonged to pr●selites of the gate who beleived in god as cornelius the centurion , who was a believer , but they did not , for he was not circu●cised , nor to be circumcised with his children if , he had any , nor blamed for defect of it ) but meerly ( so far as is exprest in scripture ) because it was go●s w●l● to have it so . now mr. m. brings not a word to prove either that the children of prosylites vissibly owning god and his covenant , or the natural post●ri●y of christian pro●essors of the gentiles are either abrahams seed , or have such an interest in ex●ernal church privileges as mr. m. asser●s by vertue of that promise , or tha● wha● agrees to abraham in respect of ex●ernal church privileges for his faiths sake must agree either to only vissible prosylites , or christians , or real believers , but speaks like a dictator not a disputer . nor is there any good consequence in this , what , agreed to abraham for his faith's sake agrees to every believer , for then every believer should be father of the faithful as abraham was for his faith's sake . it is true that if the truth of abraham's f●ith were the immediate adequate reason of external privileges as i● was of justification , it would follow them , what ex●ernal privileges agree to abraham for his faith's sake should agree to every believer , but such believers then must be true real believers as abraham was , not bare vissible prosy●i●s or christian professors . but surly mr. m. means no more by [ for abraham's faiths sake ] but this , that abrahams faith was the motive or occasion god took to enter into covenant with him , nor was it simply his real true faith , but his remarkeable exemplary faith described rom. . , . which was the motive or occasion of gods entring into covenant with him , which is not verefied of every true believer , and the motive or occasion was not barely the truth , but the eminent degree of his faith . in my postscript pag. . i gave a like instance matth. . , . the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , binding and loosing were given to peter for his confession sake , yet it follows not the keyes are given to every one that makes the same confession as he did . and the reason because the confession was eminent and exemplary at a special time , and it was but the occasion , not the immediate adequate reason of that gift to him ▪ for that was onely the special grace and purpose of gods will. ly , saith mr. m. abraham's natural seed prosilites of other nations could never by vertue of their becomming followers of abraham's faith have brought their children into covenant with them so as to have a visible church-member-ship , as we know they did . answ. i do not know that the proselytes natural seed had the visible church-member-ship mr. m. mentions by vertue of the promise gen. . . and their parents faith , but of gods command exod . ly saith he , and we know also that this promise of being the god of believers and their seed was frequently renewed many hundreds of years after abraham , jsaac , and jacob , were dead and rotten , as deut. . . so esa : . , . so likewise esay . . and this last promise your self acknowledg pag. . to be intended chiefly of the nation of the iewes , at their last calling in : and whereas you use to elude these texts by saying these things belong onely to the elect . when they come to believe , and reach not to any privilege which is external ; i reply , by the same answer you might cut off the seed of abraham , jsaac , and jacob , for to believers then as well as believers now were these promises made . answ : that which i say is no elusion of the texts , but so plain and evident , that paedo-baptists of note do concur with me . mr. rich. baxter . in his letter to mr. bedford in the friendly accommodation between them . to this and that which followeth i answer ; . these following arguments perswade me that you erre ; . no such promise ( tha● give●h certainly cornovum or the first effectual grace to all the rightly baptized or to all the children of believers ) can be shewed in scripture ; i will circumcise thy heart and of thy seed , seems to me to be none such . because els it should not be the same circumcision that is promised to the parent of the child : but there is no intimation of two circumcisions in the texr : one to the father , being only an increase or actuating of grace ; and the other to the child being the giving the first renuing grace : . the text seems plainly to speak of [ their seed ] not in their infant state but in their adult deut. . for. . v. . the conditon of the promise is expressly required , not onely of the parents , but of the child●en themselves by name . . and that condition is the personal performance of the sam acts which are tequired of the parents viz : to returne to the lord and obey his voice with all their heart and soul. . the circumcision of heart promised is so annexed to the act that it appeareth to be meant onely of those that were capable of the act v. . the lord thy god will circumcise thine heart and the heart of thy seed to love the lord thy god so that it is not ment of those that are uncapable of so loving , and after , a new heart is given to the elect onely . by this doctrin you feign a new heart not to be proper to the elect , which is contrary to all the anti-arminians that i know of . out of which it plainly appears that deut. . . speaks not of an external privilege , but a spiritual grace proper to the elect , nor can be meant of the seed of believers in their infant sta●e , but in their adult . in the text jsai . . , . speaking of gods pouring his spirit on the seed of jacob his servant . and ieshrim whom he had chosen ( whom he bids not to fear ) and his blessing on his off-spring and that they shall spring up as amongst the grass &c. the terms jacob and jeshurim are taken not personally ( for it were in vain to bid jacob dead long before not to fear ) but collectively either for the nation of israel , or the church of god called the jsrael of god. gal. . . in the former acception the seed and off-spring must be ment of the children of israel , that is the israelites by natural generation , and then the sense is ( as mr. gataker in his annot. on that text ) my spirit , that is my blessing ( the one expoundeth the other ) whereby they and their state should thrive and flourish , and mul●iply , and increase , that had been almost clean exhaust and exceedingly impaired in a manner beyond al hopes of recovery before ch . . ezek. . . , . so of their land ch . . . and of their ●eed ch . . he followeth still the comparison taken from grounds well watered as ch . . . and the seed sown in soil ch . . ▪ in the latter 〈◊〉 he , it is a type o● that spiritual growth and increase of gods church , and the members 〈◊〉 under the messiah , by the graces and comfort● o● his spirit acts. . . e●hes . . . . col. . . ●et . . . s●e ch . ● . . and . ● . and . . . take it either way it makes no●hi●g for a● external vissible privilege from age to age belonging to the natural seed even o● 〈◊〉 believers : but in the first acception it n●●es a future multiplying of the jewes then much wast●d , in the la●ter spiritual graces and comforts to 〈…〉 . and for the last t●xt ames . coro● ▪ acts. c. ● versum vicesimum , quem in hanc partem remonstrantes trahunt , in alteran part●m accipit apostolus paulus rom. . . promissionem absolut●m & electorum propriam in eo contineri manifestis verbis confirmans : exterm●n nihil son●t spiritus meus qui est in 〈◊〉 . ●eminis etiam inculcatio solos electos & ●●●caciter vocatos notari docet apostolo sic hunc citulum interpretante rom. . ● . gal . . & . . mr. gataker annot : on esai . . thy seed ] the faithful the seed according to the promise deut. . ▪ rom. . , gal. . . . se dr. owen of perseverance ch . . sect. . ch . . sect. . ch . . sect. . ch . . sect. . and for what mr m counts absurd i yeild i● that my answer cuts off isaac's and iacob's natural posterity from these promises except they be elect . and as for mr. m. deprehending me in absurdity and trifling such as i cenceive in mr. cottons● words , i tell him that his discourse runs upon a mistake of my words and meaning ( which he doth almost in every thing he repea●s of m●n● and censu●es out of hast to frame his book as i am willing to conceive . ) for where do i say that which he ascribes to me , and from which he would infer like triflin● and absurdity as was in mr. cottons speech , that god made this promise to abraham , isaac , and jacob to be the god of them and their seed in all generations ? and yet if i had said it , such trif●ing as mr. cotton used , would not have follow●d on those words ascribed to me , unless i had said also , that abraham , isaac , and jacob were put for every believer and [ ●heir seed ] had been meant in ●hat proposition ascribed to me , of their spirituall seed by faith . and for the close of that discourse in which he tells me , thus by your own argument you cut off all the jewes but such as were elect and inwardly holy , as much as you do the gentiles from having any visible communion in externall privileges , i say mr. m. fathers on me his own brats , first a proposition i deliver not , then an argument which was none of mine as he makes it , and then a conclusion i never owned , nor would follow on that proposition or that argument he would father on me . for if it were granted that i asserted that god promised to abrahaham , isaac , and jacob , to be the god of them and their seed in all generations , and that my reasoning on mr. cottons words would prove this proposition must be meant onely of the elect , and inwardly holy ( as mr. m. falsly imagines ) i do not cut off the gentiles from having any visible communion in externall privileges , unless i had said the elect jewes or gentiles onely had visible communion in externall privileges by vertue of that promise , gen. . . whereas i never said that externall privileges , as v. . of the initiall seal of circumcision was proper to the elect , and inwardly holy , or derived it from the promise , gen. . , but onely from the command , v. . . sect . xxxviii . animadversions on the third chapter of the first part of mr. t. cobbe●s jus●● vindic. sect. , , . about gen. . whereby his positions about church-covenant and externall privileges of the covenant of grace are refelled . to how little purpose mr. m. hath alleged the promise , gen. , . hath been considered ▪ i shall now view what mr , cobbe● just. vindic. part . ●hap . . brings for his doctrine of federal holiness of church-members children from thence . first he begins , sect. . with certain distinctions , the covenant of grace , saith he , is considered either nakedly or as invested with a visile politicall church covenant , if not explicite , yet implicite . we are to consider this place , gen. . not so much in the former as the later sense ; god making of it with ference to the church , which was to remain in the posterity of isaac , v. , , , . albeit at present it be to be contained in abrahams own family , whence also he ordaineth an initiatory seal , and way of restipulation , to which they submitting together as one selected body collectively , and as members thereof distributively , they did implicitly make confession and promise to god and bind themselves in a nearer religious tie one unto another . hence then renewed deut. . chron. . & . & . nehem. . ezek. , . answer . it had been well if mr. c. had defined the covenant of grace in this sense , and how it is fe●cht from gen. . . that i might have known whether he takes it in the same notion which i do , whose examen mr. cotton in his letter to me certified me that he was to examine . a covenant in the proper acception is a promise single or mutuall , the covenant of grace is gods covenant or promise of grace , a term not used in scripture , though agreeably enough to it . every covenant of god may be well enough termed a covenant of grace . it was of his grace , that is , free favour , that god made any covenant with man in innocency , that he entred into covenant with the israelites at the giving the law at mount sinai : yet commonly divines oppose the covenant of grace to either of these covenants . it is true there are who make the covenant at mount sinai the covenant of grace with a different administration , which to be a mistake , is shewed in that which follows . usually difference is made between the covenant of grace and the covenant of works , or of the law , which is agreeable to the apostles expressions , gal. . . & . . the one promiseth justification by keeping the law , the other by believing in christ. i for my part take the covenant of grace for gods promise of evangelicall saving grace , to wit , regeneration , justification by christ , &c. according to the doctrine of the author to the hebrews , chap. , , , ● ▪ . & , , . which our lord christ calls the new testament , matth. . . i acknowledge also , that gen. . . and elsewhere , this covenant was made to abraham under c●vert expressions , which in their first and most obvious sense held forth other things . but i am put to ghesse what mr cobbet means by the covenant of grace , and in which words , gen. . and in what sense he placeth the covenant of grace there . he speaks of a visible politicall church-covenant , and conceives the covenant of grace , gen. . to be invested with it either explici . or implicit . the visible poli●icall church-covenant ( as i conceive from sundry writings of the new england elders ) is , that promise of members in a particular church gathered in a congregationall way wherein over and besides the promise they make of faith in god , and in the lord christ , they explicitly or implicitly promise to each other to walk in holy communion of gods ordinances , and subjection to those that are over them with the members of the congregation to which they adj in themse●ves as members . mr. c. supposeth this covenant as elsewhere so here , gen. . to be included , i wi●h many others see no clear ground for such a covenant there or elswhere . besides , what he means by the covenant of grace considered as invested with a visible politicall church-covenant , if not explicit , yet implicit , is obscure ▪ [ invested ] is as much as clothed , and it is used as a term of law , as in the great question about investures into bishopricks in former ages , and so it notes a legall admission . but in what sense the covenant of grace is said to be invested , is somewhat dark . this i conceive is the meaning , that the covenant of grace , gen. . . is made to abraham and his seed considered as joyned by a visible politicall church-covenant . but i conceive such a position nei●her true nor safe : not true , for no mention either explicit or implicit of such a church covenant is here or in any of the places he cites . none ●here : for though god made the promise in reference to the church which was to remain in the posterity of isaac , v. , ▪ , yet that church might be joyned by common profession of the same god , without a promise explicit or implicit of walking toge●her in communion under an eternall politie . god ordained circumcision as a sign of the covenant made with abraham : but in what words or f●ct there 's any implied way of rest●pulation , confession , or promise to god , i am yet to seek , much m●re wherein they did bind themselves in a nearer religious●ie one to another . for though god intended by circumcision to bind them to leave sin and keep his precepts , and to direct them to look for the messi●h ▪ yet that they by any word or act of theirs , did promise to do so , i find not there , nor is it likely that ishmael did make any such profession or promise to god or to others of the family , considering his after carriage to isaac , and his expulsion from abrahams house . as for the other texts , deut. . , , there 's mention of entring into covenant with the lord , not a word of entring into covenant one with another , much less of submitting to any outward ecclesiastical governors or government . the same may be said of the covenant , chron. . , . chron. , , . there 's a covenant to god mentioned , but not a covenant to each other called a church-covenant . chron. there 's no mention of any covenant , but of keeping the passover . nehem. . , . it is said , they clave to their brethren , their nobles , and entred into an oath to walk in gods law : but that they entred into a covenant one with another , i find not . if the words , they clave to their brethren their nobles , be meant of a promise to them , yet a promise of subjection to them as ecclesiasticall superiors , of holding communion with them in ordinances for admission to church-membership , i find not there , but an engagement with them to re●orm certain abuses : and then ordinances ( not a covenant ) were made to charge themselves with for the service of the lord , ezek. . . there 's no mention of mans promise to god , or to one another , but the promise of god to them , that he sware to israel , and entred into covenant with them , and they became his . nor is the position safe , that the covenant of grace , gen. . . is made to abraham and his seed considered as joyned by a visible politicall church-covenant : for then should not the proselytes of the gate , as for instance , cornelius the centurion be included in the promise of being a god to him , because it is certain he was not j●yned by a visible politicall church-covenant to the jewish church , sith he was uncircumcised , and counted unclean , insomuch as that peters going in to him , a●ts . . was conceived as unwarrantable for that reason . and what can be the issue of this doctrine , if received , but perplexing superstitious fears of their salvation in some , if they be not in church-covenant , for without the promise of being god to a person , no man is s●ved , and injurious censures of those not in church-covenant , as out of the way of salvation , which will make it like the grand imposture ( ●s dr. morton calls it ) of the romish ●hurch that out of communion with it is no salvation . i do not make such a church-covenant unlawfull , for what we are bound to do , we may lawfully promise to do , nor do i deny its expediency and usefulness , especi●lly if it be not in too strict and intangling a form . but i think there 's no suffici●nt proof that it is of divine institution , or the form of a particular church ei●her in resp●ct of its tru●h or purity , much less that it is a condition of interest in the covenant of grace , as if the promises thereof were m●de under that condition . but i conceive this speech of mr. c. he●e together wi●h ●hat other excepted against m● by me in the first part of this review ▪ pag. are very dangerous . i go on . again , saith mr. c. that covenant of grace is considered either in it self , or its administration ; to which purpose circumcision is called the covenant , partly because it was the sign and seal of the covenant of grace , gen. , ▪ ▪ partly too , because it was the covenant of grace in the administration of it , ier. . . & isai. . & zach. ● . . hath reference to the covenant of grace , both as invested with the church covenant , and in respect of church administration thereof . answer . the administration of the covenant of grace is to me no way intelligible but thus , that by it is meant the administring the promise it self , which i know not how it should not be done but by making or writing , or some other way representing or recording it , or the things promised in the covenant of grace , to wit , justification , &c. which may be done either by divine authority & power conferring or bestowing , and this none can do but the eternal father , son and spirit , or by way of signification , revelation or assurance of them , so i confess the preaching of the gospel , and in some sense the sacraments ( as they are called ) may be termed church-administrations of the covenant of grace . but this seems not to be mr. c. his meaning , for he saith , circumcision is called the covenant , partly because it was the sign and seal of the covenant of grace , gen. . , , . partly too because it was the covenant of grace in the administration of it which words are an in●pt tautology , if to be the covenant of grace in the administration of it , be not somewhat beyond being a sign and a seal of it ; and sith circumcision is said to be both , circumcision must not onely sign and seal the covenant of grace , but must be the administration of it , which how it should do but by conferring the grace of it , i know not . if it be that way , it must do it either ex opere operato , or ex opere operantis : if this later way , then how do infants receive grace by it , who believe not , nor do any other act pre-required ? if the former , it is the same with the tenent of popish doctors . and for the text , gen ▪ . , . his own words , pag. . refu●e him when he s●i●h , every one that ha●h read catecheticall doctrine will say ▪ that when in one verse it 's said of circumcision in their flesh , that it was his covenant in their flesh : it is an usu●ll metonymy in speaking of sacraments to call the outword sacramenntall sign and seal by the name of the thing signified and scaled , pag . circumcision is b●t a branch of the covenant , or condition of the covenant on their part . as for the tex● jer. . . there 's not a word of ci●cumcision in 〈◊〉 , onely it is said that god had caused to cleave to him the whole house of israel , as the girdle cleav●th to the ●yns of a man , but to refer this to circumcision is frivolous ▪ god had by his covenant , providence and actings for them in wonderfull ma●er made them to cleave to hi● , that ●hey might be unto him for a people , as i● follows in the v●rse . in the other text , isai. it is said the iews had broken the everlasting covenant ▪ which if it be und●rstood of the covenant of grace , then may it be br●ken , a●d persons may fa●l from grace ; if of circumcision , as mr. c. seems to und●rstand it ▪ then it is no more but they had uncircumcised ●hemselves , which were both fa●se : for at that time and after , even unto this day , ●he iewes keep the ordinance of circumcisioon very strictly , ●nd frivol●s as if this h●d been the great ma●ter for which the earth mourned , did fade away , languished , was utterly emptied and spoiled . but ●the covenant here is meant of the covenant of ●he law a 〈…〉 ▪ which was everlasting , that is , to continue as long as their p●●i●y stood , exod . , . as ex●n . , , & . . & . , chron. . . . & . . the word [ for ever ] is used for a long time , or the continuance of the iewish s●ate . so jer : , , , jer : , , they are accused to break the covenant at m●un● sinai by disobedience , chiefly by idolatry , and therefore neither of the t●x●s yeild any thing to prove circumcision to be the covenant of grace in the administration of it . that gods breaking of his covenant , zach . : hath no reference to the covenant of grace , either as invested wi●● church-covenant or church-administration thereof , is shewed above , sect , in the right administration of it . the distinction he makes of being in the covenant intentionally and 〈◊〉 i allow , nor do i deny the distinction o● being in covenant internally and savingly , and onely externally in respect , of men , though i find not ishmael any where said to be in the covenant , and the promises rom. . . are meant of the peculiar promises to the nation of israel , by the covenants are meant the tables of the covenant as beza in his annot. on that place , however all there said is meant of the israelites only as is shewed before sect. . and therefore this place makes nothing for christian gentile professors being externally in the covenant of grace as mr. c. imagines . nor do i know any text in the scripture wherein that phrase is used of being in covenant or having the covenant belong to them externally only . the distinction of being in covenant externally in their own or their parents right hath no proof in the new testament , however it have in the old . the seed of abraham by proportion is a new invented sort of abrahams seed , no where proselytes of old ( not true believers ) in their generations ▪ and ( were ) visible inchurched beleivers in their generations scil . parents & children together are terms abrahams seed in scriptue . that deut. . notes the sorts of persons , not the individuats cannot be true ▪ for [ him that is here and him that is not here ] note individual persons distinguished according to their present and future existence . that gen. . is meant of a church seed indefinite or by proportion , is said , not proved by mr. c. and denied by me . i pass on to his conclusions . sect. . i grant the first conclusion according to the explication i give in my exercit. pag. . in my examen part . . sect. . that the covenant gen. ▪ was a covenant ●f grace , and the same in nature with that covenant of grace n●w h●ld ●orth to us . but mr. c. hath a further meaning to wit that the covenant as it is a covenant of evangelical grace contains a promise to a gentile believere of the external privilege of an initial seal or external ●ight to outward ordinances to them and their natural seed , and accordingly saith pag. the covenant then of the gospel hath outward privileges of gods tabernacle annexed as wel as abrahams covenant , yea in that it 's the same with it . which conclusion in this sense were manifestly false , for the lord hath of purpose taken away such a tabernacle according to christs prediction iohn . . that there might be no distinction of iewes and gentiles all having one access by one spirit to the father eph. . . as for his proofs i intend not to construe every speech of mr c. there being many of them if they be good sense yet very darke , but onely shew the impertinency of his texts to this purpose . le●i . . , ● . containes a promise proper to the isralites obeying god v , as v &c. and shewes , and it is a promise of that which is not now to be performed to us or setling his tabernacle among us , the tabernacle and temple being now taken away since christs incarnation . god hath setled no tabernacle now among us but christs body or heavens iohn . . . heb. . . and . or the c●urch of god. cor. . , . and . and his setling this tabernacle or temple is by saving grace , hath no reference to ou●w●rd church privileges , such as mr. c. means . revel . . . is a promise of something to be performed in the last time whether at the calling of the jewes , or after the judgment . whatever it be it notes another thing than external right to outward ordinances common to elect and reprobate , though it be expressed by a terme illusive to the material tabernacle of the jews . ephes. . , . it is said the gentiles were without god in the world after their conversion ; not because their children wanted an external right to an initial seal , for cornelius the centurions children and such proselytes of the gate wanted such a right , and yet were not without god in the world ; but because they knew not the true god , and his will concerning them that believe in christ , piscat : analys : loci , or or worshiped not the true god after , his will as the new annot. even as galat. . the galatians before their conversion are said not to have known god , but to do service to them that by nature were not gods. exod. . is a promise to the israelites whom he brought out of egypt v. . and from whom he had sanctified a●ron and his sons . revel . . . as v. . is neither m●●nt of ou●ward ordinances , nor of an esta●e which is yet pertaining to the godly who are still under persecutions . levit : . , , . certain promises of restoring the israelites from captivity and bringing them back to canaan as v. , . shew . zech. . . whether meant of temporal deliverance or spiritual it is another thing than outward ordinances , in the former sense it is proper to the jewes carried to babylon , in the latter to the elect onely . the like may be ●aid of gen. . . . psal. . . ierem. . , . ( likely v. . . ) cor. . ▪ . exod. . . compared with levi● . , . heb : ● . . in none of wh●ch their 's a word of a right of infants or meer professing parents to the visible administration by vertue of gods covenant gen : . . to be abraham and his seed ; nor doth it follow because god saith my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant gen : . . therefore ou●ward ordinances and right to them as then are to be perpetual , for then circumcision of which those wods are spoken must con●inue still , but ra●her as mr : l●y in his annot : on gen : . . the covenant may be said to be everlasting in respect of the spiritual part for which circumcision was ordained , and in respect of the long continuance of the outward ceremony . if ezek : . , . be meant of the jewes calling in the time yet to come , and the same phrases be used , yet that ei●h●r the promise should be meant v : . of their childrens having ●n in●●ial seal , v : . their having a material tabernacle or temple and outward ordinances as in the former time is but a vain conceit : for then they must by the same reason have david the son of iesse to be their king . wherefore as by david is meant christ typified by david , so circumcision is continued in the mortifying of sins col. . and gods placing his tabernacle is as piscat : sch . in ez●h : . . the gratious inhabiting of god in the hearts of the elect cor : . . and if because in the new testament such allusive phrases are found as are in the same language with those used in the old , therefore such outward things are imported by them as were in the law , then outward privileges , offices , rites should be meant by presenting our bodies as sacrifices , being preists to god &c. it is in my apprehension a manifest anti-evangelical and iudaizing assertion which mr : c. hath , that the covenant of the gospel hath outward privileges of gods tabernacle annexed as well as abrahams covenant , yea itn that it is the same with it . sect : ●● when he saith conc : . that the covenant of grace gen : . is to be considered as invested with church covenant , it is such an ambiguous expression as i know not well how to understand what i imagine to be the meaning i have refuted before in this section . nor doth that which is here said , that there is mention of this covenant to be kept by them v : . and further expressed in one particular thereof v : . and that this was required as an initiatory sign incorporating them into one instituted church body , wherby they were made capable of further church-ordinances and other duties which lay upon them virtually by it , prove the church-covenant he speaks of , unless it be proved ( which i think he cannot do ) they did tie themselves thereby to walk with one another in holy communion with subjection to their superiors as a distinct visible political church . sect . xxxix . animadversions on sect : . of the same chapter : whereby the co●ceits of mr. c about external being in the covenant of grace are shewed to be vain . sect : mr. c. sets down this conclusion , that there is a bare external being in the covenant of grace of persons who possibly never shall be saved . but he no where shewed in scripture either the term covena● of grace , or the phrase of being in the covenant of grace externally or in●ernally . did mr : c. and other paedobaptists distinctly set down . what th●y mean by [ the covenant of grace ] . what they mean by [ being ex●ernally in the covenant of grace ] whether it be any o●her thing than to be baptized or circumcised , and what it is distinct from one of these or title to one of them . . by what act ●t is that a person is externally in the covenant of grace , whether gods or his owne , or others as v. . the administra●ors , parents , or the churches , we might more easily judg of his position . if he mean no more than this , that there is a being in the covenant of grace in respect of men , that is , men as administrators and others do think or judg some to be in the covenant of grace , that is , that god hath promised saving grace to some to whom he hath not , i grant it , and i might say in the like manner , some are excernally elected , regenerated , justified , adopted who are not so savingly . and i should grant that such as are taken to be in the covenant of grace by reason of th●ir own profession of faith in christ are rightly judged by us to be in the covenant of grace and may be baptized , though perhaps they shall not be saved . but such as are taken by us to be in the covenant of grace without gods promise or act of their own profession of faith , by an administrators of baptism and others mistake . concerning the promise gen : . as if it were made to every believing gentile by profession inchurched , and his natural seed as abrahams church seed ( as mr. c. calls them ) are not therefore rightly judged to be in the covenant of grace , nor rightly judged to be fit subjects of baptism which appears to be mr : c's . meaning by his words pag. . when he saith , the covenant is theirs externally and quoad homines considered as invested with church covenant , and in reference to covenant-ordinances whereof they are capable as of old they were of circumcision and are now of baptism . let us consider what mr. c. brings to this purpose . what he saith the promise is said to belong to those jewes rom : . . on whom yet the word took no saving effect v : . is not right . for v : . is not meant by [ the promises ] he promise by excellency called the promise of the spirit gal : . . given to abraham v : . distinct from the law v : . but the peculiar promises which are made to the israelites upon the obeying of the law that they should possess canaan , liue long in it , and prosperously as deut , . . and . , &c. for all that which is said rom : . . is meant of what was proper co the israelites after the flesh . but the covenant of grace is established or made a law on better promises heb : . . and the phrase rom : . . [ not as if the wo●d of god had taken none effect , which is word by word , not as if or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it may not be , that is : it is not possible , or it may not be yeelded that the word of god fell or was not verified ] is meant not of the promises , v : , but of the promises mentioned v : . to wit that gen : . . which he doth not say did belong to any exte●nally on whom it had no saving effect : but supp●se it to have been verefied and made good to all to whom it was made , who in go●s intention were only the elect , ca●led therefore children of the promise v : ● that is those that were bego●t●n by the promise , not to every child of abraham by natural generation , in particular not to ishmael , nor esau. nor is it right which he adds , hence rom : . . by opposition to the gentiles , hey ( the jewes meant v : . ) where those which were not strangers to the church , but of it , if he mean it of the christian church . i grant the jewes were not strangers to the covenants of promise , but in the same , eph. : , . but that all the gentile believers and their children were then that which they were not before , is not a ●ight collection . for as they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , uncircumcised in the flesh , so th●y were still ; nor were they ever of the polity of israel . and if the covenants of promise be meant of the tables of the covenants , and if the word [ promise ] be placed thus ( as some place it ) not having hope of the promise , they might be still said to be strangers from the covenants . however , if then they were acquainted with , and partakers of the covenants of promise , this can be understood of none but true believers and the covenant as it was spiritual , which is nothing to the being externally in the covenant of graces . mr. c. adds , hence god makes his covenant with them all , deut. : , , , , . speaking there of that solemn renewall of the covenant of grace , as deut. : , , , ▪ . compared with rom. , , , . evinceth . answer . the more ample discussing this place , and vindicating my exceptions from what mr. b. replies , i reserve till i answer his plain scripture proof , &c. part . c. and his corrective , sect. . for present i say , if god did make his covenant with them all , and it appears to have been the covenant of grace , as deut : . , , , , . compared with rom. . , , . evinceth , then all must be not onely externally in the covenant of grace , but also internally : for the promise deut. . . is to circumcise the heart to love the lord , cannot be expounded of the external being in the covenant of grace , but internal . mr b. in his friendly accommodation , a new heart is given to the elect onely , which is all one with the circumcised heart . he goes on , so ezek . . he made a covenant with that church and people , many whereof proved very base , as that chapter sheweth . now this was a covenant of grace , albeit invested with church-covenant , as appears in that v. . that god for that his covenants sake considered as his , will deal so graciously with them after all their provocations , as v. , . albeit he did not thus properly for the sake of that investure of his covenant annexed , scil . thy covenant , the churches covenant abractively considered , v. . see more ezek. . from v. . to the chapters end . answer . the thing that mr. c. should prove is an externall being in the covenant of grace quoad homines . but ezek. . . neither speaks of the covenant of grace , but the covenant of the law , which was made in mount sinai junius the new annot : refer to exod. . & . piscat . schol. in locum , visitari te per mosen , educendo te ex aegypto , & pangendo tecum fedus , atque ita ducendo te in uxorem : nor is this meant of externall being in covenant in respect of men , but of gods promise to them , as the words plainly import , , i sware unto thee and entred into covenant with thee , saith the lord. as for the reason why the covenant v. must be the covenant of grace , because he will deal graciously with them for that his covenant , v. . it goes on this supposition , that the covenant v. , is the same with the covenant v. . but piscat . schol. on the place reckons that v. , to be the covenant made in the times of araham , isaac , and jacob , and levit. . , leads to it . but were it granted to be the covenant by moses , it follows not that the covenant must be the covenant of evangelicall grace . for in moses his renewing the covenant in the land of moab , there 's a promise of reduction of them , deut. . . which being upon condition of their returning to god , and obeying his voyce according to all that moses commanded that day , must be understood of the covenant of the law , which had its promises of such temporall favours , and not of the covenant of evangelical grace . that which mr. c. saith , that he did not thus properly , for the sake of that investure of his covenant annexed , scil . this covenant , the churches covenant abstractively considered , v. . i know not what sense to make of it . there 's not a word of church-covenant , or investure with it . the plain meaning is either this , not by that covenant of the law which thou hast broken , but by the new covenant of the gospel , as junius in his annot. in locum , diodati , the new annot. or this as piscat . schol. in locum , not because thou art worthy of this aggregation of the nations , as if thou hadst kept covenant with me , as if he had said , but of my grace or free favour , or as grotius ▪ it is a metonymy as if it were said , not because on thy part thou hast stood to the covenant . i have seen ezek . from v. . to the chapters end , and i see nothing there to mr c. his purpose to prove a bare externall being in the covenant of grace ▪ there 's not the word covenant in all the passage : but on the contrary , there are promises , v. , , . of a new heart giving his spirit , which as mr. b. saith truly , is proper to the elect , and notes an internall being in the covenant of grace . there 's little but muddiness and impertinency in the rest . he speaks of an externall being in christ , john . . ( which is not denied in respect of profession of those that are so ) and of an externall partaking of christ , for which it's likely he cites ( not as it is printed , heb. . . ) but heb. . . but sure that partaking is a saving partaking to which is required the holding fast to the end the beginning of our confidence . for an external partaking may be without condition . the jewish refusers , ios. . . are called christs own , either by kindred or right to them from the old engagements of them to be his by their ancestors , or by vertue of this redeeming them from aegypt , the land of the north , or some other way . surely not because they did externally belong to christ , or were externally in the covenant of grace & were to be baptized . for they expresly denied christ , and rejected the counsell of god against themselves being not baptized by iohn , luke : . i grant there is an externall being called , matth : . , but this not competent to infants : i doubt whether heb : , , be to be interpreted of an externall being sanctified quoad homines in respect of others by the blo●d of the covenant . the new annot : say thus , in regard of the meritorious sufficient satisfaction purchased by it . piscat : schol. in locum per quem vide batur esse sanctificatus quamdiu , scil . christum confitebatur . dictum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i think it is meant of the same sanctification of which he speaks in the same chapter , v. . . ch . , , to wit , an effectuall sanctification by remission of sins , and purging their consciences from dead works , chap : , , ( which alone , and not an externall sanctificacion i find ascribed to the blood of the covenant ) and the person there said to be sanctified with this sanctification not in reality but according to his profession and opinion of himself , as luke . . some are said to be just persons that need no repentance , that is , according to their own profession and opinion . the purging from sin , pet. . . was externall i grant , not inward in the heart , yet it was not a mere purging by the outward ordinance of baptism , but their own profession , and partiall reformation of themselves not competent to infants . pet : . ● it 's doubt●ful whether it note an external being purchased by christ , or a purchase by christ onely sufficient , or an effectuall purchase , yet said of them onely according to what they professed and conceived of themselves , as luke , , heb : , , or others conceived of them . that deut : , , should be meant of an externall saintship , is supposed , not proved , though it it were applied to the body of israel , yet it might be understood in respect of the better part , that the people were called gods saints . psa : , , the saints of god , and those that had made a covenant with him by sacrifice were israel . vers , & it is true there were many hypocrites ; but as the new annot : god in respect of his elect calleth the whole body holy , saints , and his people , not meerly from an externall saintship . to which i add , if it be referred to the covenant , exod : . . to which mr ainsworth in his note on the place directs ▪ it was the covenant of the law , not the covenant of grace which is meant , psal : , , it is true , there are invisible churches , which are as isaac was , children of the promise , gal : , , children of the gospel-church , v. , & . but that this should be verefied in all the members of the galatian churches , unto whom paul wrot that episte , gal : , , is not true , nor is it proved by mr c , that the apos●●e spake what he saith , v ▪ , , of every member of the churches of galatia . it is true that ierusalem above is the mother of us all : but that [ us all ] should signifie every profession of the faith in the churches of galatia , is false : for then every one of them should be born after the spirit , v : . and inherit , v. ● . the new annot : on gal : . . . therefore say , the christian church is the mother of all the faithfull who are heirs of the kingdom of heaven whether they be i●wes or gentiles . so that to be mother of us all , gal. . . is not to be mother of every professed christian in galatia , but of so many as held the right faith with paul , and were born after the spirit . thus in like maner rom : , , when it is said , who spared not his own son , but gave him up for us all , it is not meant of every professor of faith in rome , but all the elect and true believers , as that which follows in the same verse and verse shewes : so that we need not assert ei●her that every professor of faith in the galatian churches was a child of the jerusalem above effectually and savingly , or that there were some particular visible churches in which were no hypocrites ( which yet may be true notwithstanding the parables matth : and . or tim : , . compared with tim : , ) o● that such as are savingly interessed in the covenant of grace , should fall from grace , or that all were externally and according to men children of the promise , as mr c ▪ speaks . heb : , , , proves not that the promise of grace and glory may be to one as his legacy or portion externally and according to men , of the saving good whereof it is possible one may fall short . for though there be mention of a promise left , yet not of a promise left to any that come short of it , unless by being left be meant propounded or tendered onely . antipaedobaptists do grant they admit false brethren to baptism and the lords supper , called by mr cobbet seals of church and covenant fellowship , but it is not in them to admit them into the fellowship of covenant , meaning the covenant of grace ; for that is gods peculiar . we admit them to baptism on this ground , not because to us they are in covenant ( we suspend any judgement about their interest in the covenant , as being out of our cognizance , and no rule for us to admit or keep back from baptism ) but because we know them to be professors of faith in christ. if by blanks be meant such as to whom the promise of the covenant of grace is not made , and by seals , baptism and the lords supper , we think we do ordinarily put seals to a blank , nor do we make scruple thereof , or think it true that the seal must follow the covenant , or that gen : . , , . acts , . cor : , prove it . that it is not taught gen : . , , , , ast : , , is shewed in the fore part of this review , sect ▪ and in this part , sect , , , , , , , and elswhere , cor. , ▪ the cup in the lords supper is called the new testament in christs blood ; but that all , or onely those who are in the covenant of grace must have the the cup , is not proved thence , and the falshood of it is shewed above often . we do not say when we admitted persons to baptism , we judged them to be in the covenant of grace , else we had not admitted them ; but we knew they professed faith in christ , and so were disciples of christ , and thereupon admitted them according to our rule , matth. , leaving it to the lord whether they be in the covenant of grace or no , we being not directed to enquire whether they were in the covenant of grace , but whether believers and disciples by profession . i for my part agree not to it , that either according to scripture , or the best protestants any are said to be children of the promise , or that the covenant of evangelicall grace in the n. t. confirmed by christs blood , is made to them , or belongs to them besides the elect . such doctrine gives great advantage to the arminians , undermines perseverance in grace , and the polemicall doctrine of our choice divines , as i shewed ex●men part . sect. . and elswhere in this part of the review . mr. norton , mr c. his colleague , commended by mr cotton with mr cobbet , as a prime writer in the new english churches , resp. ad syl . quaest . apollon . p. . saith , objectum faederis gratiae sunt soli electi , objectum faederis ecclesiastici sunt tum electi tum reprobi my own tertulli●n in his book de anima , chap. , , when he urgeth that tex● , cor : ▪ , for a peculiar cleanness of believers children by privilege of seed , means not the federall holiness mr c. teacheth , but holiness by reason of the freedom from that unholiness in their procreation , which the infidels children had from the many gross idolatrous superstitions , by which they were defiled , and as it were ded●cated to the divell , as i shew in my apologie , sect , page . paraeus , peter martyr , bucer , melancthon , mr. philpot , are all neotericks . cyprian , gregory , nazianzen , jerom , austin , though they did plead for paedobaptism from the argument of circumcision , yet did not m●in●ain infants covenant-estate , as mr. c. but a necessity of baptism to infants ready to die , because of the text , the soul that is not circumcised shall be cut off from his people , gen : , ● , instances whereof in augustine and others are many cited by chamier pausir . tom : , l : , c. , sect , . and they thought the infant dying baptized was infallibly saved , whether believers child or not : as for others , they denied their entring into the kingdom of heaven , as i shew you in my examen , part . sect , , , . i have often considered zech : , , and i conceive the sense as mr c. makes it of the covenant of grace in respect , at least , of the externall administration thereof amongst them , as verse , and their externall right in that his covevenant , to be very vain : for if it be meant of the covenant of grace , then it is as much as to say , that i might not write my lawes in their heart , forgive their sins , &c. as i ●romised them , jer. . . and then god should break his promise , the●e should be falling from the covenant of grace , &c. if the sense be of the covenant of grace in respect of externall administration thereof amongst them , and their externall right in that his covenan● , then it is as if he had said , that i might take away circumcision , the passover , and the rest of the temple-service , and the peoples right to them . ( for what is the externall administration of the covenant of grace ; but the seals , as they call them , and the rest of the service of the sanctuary ? ) now this neither agrees to the phrase ; for circumcision is never called gods covenant with all the people , and to break circumcision , what is it but either to draw up the fore-skin , and to forbid circumcision ? if this be referred to the time of christs coming , this had not been a prediction of an evill to them , but of a benefit to be eased of that yoak , verse , mentions not externall administration of the covenant of grace , or externall right there o. but whenever it was accomplished , whether at the siege of jerusalem , or at some other time , it was the taking away of some who might be their protectors , whereby they were exposed to destruction ; which whether they were the maccabees or some others , may be doubted . however , it is so frigid an interpretation to interpert it as mr c. doth , that methinks he should be ashamed to blot paper with it . the covenant ch . whether it were that gen. . or that exod. . or . or deut. . ●t is certain it is meant not of the covenant of grace common to all believers gentiles or jews , but of the covenant which he made with the israelitish nation , which he brake by taking away their leaders whether governors or teachers maccabees or some other , and so exposing them to ruin by the grecian or roman lords or some other . psal. . . dan. . , , , . to deal falsly in gods covenant , and to forsake the holy covenant , and to do wickedly against the covenant , do not intimate that mr. c. would infer that there are some said to be in the covenant of grace only externally . for to deal falsly in gods covenant is no more than not to keep gods commands , as the term covenant is oft put synecdochically psal. . . and . . to forsake the holy covenant , is to forsake the law , to do against it , is to do against the law , as anticohus had imagination against the holy covenant , that is the law of the jews . and that this is the meaning is apparent psal. . . where v. . is thus explained , our heart is not turned back , nor our steps declined from thy way . this covenant then was no other than the law of moses , the covenant made in horeb , specially the decalogue , whence the ark called the ark of the covenant kings . . the decalogue the words of the covenant exod. . . and it is apparent in that antiochus endeavored to compel them to break that law , as to sacrafice to idols , to eat swines flesh and now this covenant was not the covenant of grace . for the apostle plainly distinguisheth the law from the promise years before gal. . . and the covenant at sinai is opposed to that of grace called the jerusalem above gal . nor is there any difficulty in that which mr. c. objects , that believers then might be in a free covenant of grace , and at the same time under the contrary covenant of bondage . for the believing jews to wit david and the rest of those that believed heb. . were under the command of the covenant in sinai . yet under the ceremonial part , yea were not under the sentence or judgment of the covenant of the law so as to be justified or condemned by it . the everlasting covenant isai. . . is no other than the law as is proved above . it is said rom . . ( not . as it is printed ) if some believed not , shall their unbelief make the faith of god without effect ? but the inference of mr. c. is frivolous , the faith of god was plighted to them , and they were externally in the covenant , though the faith of god took saving effect only in the elect and in the believing . for i would know what the faith of god was whether it were the covenant of saving grace , or the outward covenant ? if it were only the outward , how did it take saving effect in the elect ? did the faith of god take effect in that which was never promised ? the outward covenant me thinks mr. c. should not say did promise saving grace , but externall right and administrations , therefore saving grace is not the effect of that covenant . and indeed the outward covenant is but a meer notion ( except understood metonymically as circumcision is called the covenant as being the sign of it ) there being no faith of god plighted to any gentile believer and his seed , wherein god promiseth that they shall be accounted visible church members , and as having external right or enjoyment of church administrations . if he should it would be false , many of them never attaining them or having right to them . if it were the inward covenant in which god plighted his faith , then it took effect only in the elect and they only were in covenant . nor doth rom. . . intimate what mr. c. dreames ; that the word , or covenant of grace , took effect in all the jews , in some externally , in the elect savingly . but as the stream of protestant writers ( whereof some are alleged in my examen part . , sest . . and others before in this part of the review ) and the very words shew it took effect only in the elect , who are therefore call●d v. , the children of the promise distinguishingly from others , and the apostle plainly resolves that the seed gen. . . as not ishmael but isaac , not esau but jacob , and consequently no believers natural seed , except elected . as for rom. . . it is often shewed that the covenants there are meant of the tables of the covenant and the promises , the special promises made to the israelites after the flesh , as is manifest v. . . expressing peculiar privileges to them distinct from what the gentiles , though believers , have . which mr. c. saith , the covenant of grace and an outward covenant are not two distinct covenants : but the covenant of grace made with the elect in respect of their saving interest in that , i wil be a god to them , the same is made with others in respect both of visible interest and the visible administration of it , i see no truth in it . for there is no scripture that ever expounds , i will be a god to them , that is , they shall have visible interest , and the visible administration of it , that is , they shall be circumcised &c. many have the promise of saving intrest who neither have , nor ever had visible or visible administration as their language is of the covenant of grace , and on the contrary many have no saving interest , yet have the visible intrest and administration mr. c. speaks of which in truth follows the command , not the covenant . nor is it consistent with mr. c's . own suppositions , that a man may be in the external covenan● who is not in the covenant of grace savingly , that the one is only the visible interest and administration , the other the promise of saving grace , if they be not two distinct covenants , for they must needs be distinct covenants which are made to different persons of different things , as these are supposed to be by mr. c ▪ himself . nor doth mr. c. prove by any text that there is any other w●y of entring into the covenant of grace ordinarily , but by a true and lively faith . it is true ezek. . , , . the children of the israelites were gods children by special right as his servants levit. . . because he redeemed them out of egypt , and he had entred a special covenant with them , and they the whole nation had also engaged themselves in a special covenant to be his , and it is true the covenants and promises were theirs rom. . and they were the children of the prophets , and the children of the covenant which god made to abraham act. . . that is , the people among whom and out of whom christ came , to whom he was at first made known , to whom the prophets were sent ▪ but this doth not prove that they were all internally or externally in the covenant of grace . they had no right to be babtized , yea the greatest part of them ( for this is spooken of the people of the jews whether believers or not , even of them that offered their sons and daughters to divils ▪ ) denied christ , and were broken off by unbelief rom. . . gal. . . is impertinently brought to prove a bare external being in the covenant of grace . for it is meant only of believers born after the spirit v. . who by the spirit do wait for the hope of the righteousness which is by faith gal. . . it is not true that any of the 〈◊〉 members from the churh of ephesus acts . . are said to be purchased by the blood of christ. it was judged an abuse in stapleton by dr. rainold , apol. thess. sect : . to interpret the flock of god redeemed by his blood , of any reprobates . of pet. . . i have spoken before . an externall being in the covenant of grace , quoad homines , by the parties profession , i never denied , but an externall being in the covenant of grace of believers infants by vertue of the parents faith in the new testament , i still deny . mr c. takes upon him to answer my dilemma , examen pag. . and tells me , the covenant is theirs externally and quoad homines , considered as invested with church-covenant , and in reference to covenant-ordinances ▪ whereof they are capable , as of old they were of circumcision , and are now of baptism . thus it is theirs at present in respect of the visible faith and interest of the parent or parents in the covenant , and for the future it 's theirs in the further grace of the covenant upon condition of their believing if they do live to years of discretion . answer . the position i intended to prove by the dilemma , was set down page . that the covenant of saving grace in christ expressed gen . in these words , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , is not made to a believer and his na●urall seed , to which mr c. his answer is , by telling me ▪ the covenant is theirs externally &c. which is to answer nothing to the argument which proceeded against the asserting gods covenant , gen. . . as a promise of saving grace to belong to a believers naturall seed . nor doth he prove , but dictate that gen. . . ther 's a promise concerning the externall covenant , or to any gentile believers naturall seed , or that there is any mention of church-covenant , or that ●itle to church-ordin●nces , as baptism and circumcision is derived from interest in the promise gen ▪ . . or that the parents visible faith or interest in the covenant , makes it the childrens : or that the covenant is such an ambulatory or revocable contract , as to be the infants for the present in respect of the parents faith ▪ but for the future it 's theirs in the further grace of the the covenant upon condition of believing if they live to years of discretion . these dictates are hatched in mr. c. his nest , but have nothing in the text for them , nor doth he attempt to prove them in that chapter which is termed , the explication of gen. . , &c. in like manner he dictates in that which follows . i had said , if the covenant of grace to believers seed be absolute , then either god keeps it or not : ●f he do not keep it , then he breaks his word , which is blasphemy ; if he do keep it , then it follows , that all the posterity of believers are saved , contrary to rom. . . or if some are not saved though they be in the covenant of grace , there may be apostasie of persons in the covenant of grace . in answer to which he tels me , god may be said absolutely to covenant with believers seed collectively and specifically considered , and yet all the individuall children not saved . it is absolutelely made , and made good that , that sort of persons shall be and are saved by virtue of gods covenant , for some of them are infallibly saved : the covenant is to the indefinite collective seed or children in respect of internall saving interest : else none of them dying infants should be saved . whereto i reply , the promise is to abrahams seed , gen. . ● . but that the promise is to be a god to any gentile believers naturall indefinite collective seed in respect of the internall saving interest , as such , is not true . the promise is not made indefinitely but definitely to ahrahams seed , under whom none but believers of the gentiles , or elect persons are meant , nor is it made specifically to a sort of men , but to such and such numericall persons as were abrahams seed by nature or grace : nor is it made collectively to any of them as part of the whole number of gentile-believers naturall seed , but as abrahams seed by grace , and if any of them be elect , it is made also to gentile unbelievers naturall seed under the same consideration . it is true , some of the believing gentiles seed dying infants are saved ; nor can we say that none of the unbelievers infants , dying in infancy , are saved , notwithstanding the arguments brought to prove their perishing . but none of them are saved by virtue of a promise made to that sort of persons , that is , believers naturall children ( for there is no such promise ) but by vertue of gods election , conformable to which is the promise of saving grace , gen. . . as the apostle expresly determines , rom. . , . , and consequently as election is of individuall persons ( not of a collective indefinite specificall seed as mr. c. speaks ) so is the covenant . m. c. goes on thus . supposing they are the israel of god , a part of the elect seed , yet the means of saving effect in and upon them , is the word of the covenant , rom. . . it 's through the effectuall word and engaged truth of god that that part of the church are savingly purged , eph. . , . answ. i grant this to be true , yet conceive that eph. . , . speaks of the word of promise , not barely as made , but also as accomplished in christs performance , and published by preaching , whereupon baptism follows , by both which christ sanctifies and purgeth his church savingly by the one as the means , by the other as the sign . he adds , the covenant is to the individual seed of all and each of them in respect of externall interest , and yet many of them not saved . answer . this is an exposition which is without proof , or example of the like , . that where god saith , i will be a god to abrahams seed , he means other believers , even gentiles naturall seed . that he means this in respect of externall interest onely to some . . that some of those to whom he promiseth to be a god according to the covenant of grace in christ , may not be saved . that by abrahams seed he meaneth in respect of saving effects , the indefinite collective seed of gent●le-believers , so as that it is onely made good to that sort of persons ( which were true if none but isaac and iacob were saved ; for if the promise of salvation be onely to the sort of persons , it is made good in one or two of believers seed ) but in respect of externall interest to the individual seed all and each of them , yea though the parents be but hypocrites , and not savingly in the covenant of grace themselves . he goes on . nor yet is gods faithfulness impeached or impaired , nor need the faith of believers be shaken , if this or that child should prove , live and die wicked , the force of the covenant is not to be measured by the fatall miscarriage of many of abrahams church-seed . answer . neither is gods faithfulness impeached , nor need the faith of believers be shaken , though all their chidren die wicked . it is not true , that the apostles reasoning , rom. . , . compared mentions any such church-seed of abraham , or takes them in as such , but onely the elect . mr c. doth falsly charge his adversaries doctrine , as denying any interest at all to any believers infants in the covenant . i have often granted it to the elect , but to none as believers infants . mr baillee charged me with this thing , to which i answered in my letter to him , sect. . our doctrine is as comfortable as theirs when they speak truth . it is no gospel but a dream to affirm what mr. c. doth of abrahams fancied church-seed , though it be gospel to say , god will be a god to abrahams spirituall seed elect and true believers . sect . xl. animadversions on sect. . of the same chapter , shewing that mr. c. his supposed visible interest in gods covenant is not the rule in baptizing . sect. , mr. c. sets down this conclusion , that the church in dispensing an enjoyned initiatory seal of the covenant of grace , looketh unto visibility of interest in the covenant , to guide her in the application thereof . nor is the saving interest of persons in view , which is her rule by which she is therin to proceed . concerning which i say , that i grant it if the terms be altered into plainer expressions as thus : the baptizer in the admitting a person to baptism , is not bound to stay baptism till he know a person hath saving interest in gods covenant of grace ; but it is sufficient , if he be a visible disciple or believer to admit him to baptism . and that m. c. may cease his wonder , he who confessed that it 's not to be denied that god would hav● infants of believers in some sense to be counted his , to belong to his church and family , & not to the divels as true in facie ecclesiae visibilis , &c. doth not oppose his fourth conclusion reduced to the plain terms i have set it down 〈◊〉 . yet there are sundry things in which i oppose him . . that he makes it the churches business to dispense the initiatory seale ( as he calls it ) of the covenant of grace , which i ●ake to belong to him that is sent or used to make disciples by preaching the gospel , not to the church . . that he maketh the rule of baptizing to be visible interest in the covenant , which according to the institution is visible discipleship , or faith . . that he takes that person to have visible interest in the covenant of grace , so as to have right therby to baptism , who neither by extraordinary revelation from god , nor by any act of his own , but barely by his parents profession hath a pretended visible interest in the covenant . but let 's examine what he saith , because he seems to be the selected man in new england to plead for infant-baptism . whether john the baptist did admit to baptism those which he knew would prove false and frothy , is doubtfull . mr norton mr cs. colleague . resp. ad ▪ appollon . c. prop ▪ . seems to hold the negative , and cites to that purpose , paraus and aretius . i agree with mr. c. in his position , that person● may be bapti●ed upon visible profession without knowledge of the saving state of the party , yet i do not think ananias and sapphira , or simon magus were known hypo●●ites when ●hey were b●ptized , nor do i think the texts mr c. allegeth , acts . , &c , or , , &c. or , , , prove , that any of those baptized , acts . , or . , . ; . were of the number of them that opposed paul , or proved false . if christ did say to iudas that his body was broken or given f●r him , and his blood shed , it will be hard to avoid thence the proof of universall redemption . i think it the safest and most likely tenent that judas went out afore the lords supper . for the passover it was not administred to judas by christ , nor do i know what warrant we have to make it a seal of the covenant , or to belong to a minister of the seals , as they speak . it was a rite instituted to remember the delivery out of egypt , ond appointed to be used by each family without any other administration than the providing , slaying , dressing and bringing to the table : if the prist did any thing in it , it was at the temple not at the table , each person was to take himself according to his eating , abraeham and isaac did circumcise ishmael & esau rightly according to gods command , which is the rule in administring ordinances , not covenant-in●erest . but that they did circumcise as prophets or priests at that time , to the church in their families , it is said without proof . the business of circumcising was not the work of a person as a prophet or priest to his family , but did belong to the parent or some other in his stead , though no prophet nor priest. chamier paustr . cath . tom . l c. . sect , , saith , we read of no certain minister of circumcision either in the institution or elswhere , so that there 's no obstacle but that zipporah , and the woman in the second of maccabees , c. . might circumcise . so there is nothing read by which the immolation of the paschal lamb was wont to be done in each family , is prohibited , though no priests were used . ishmael and esau , and iudas , were not visibly interessed in the covenant ; being discovered by god and christ to be such as had no interest in it . that a minister cannot of himself admit to baptism , or reject from it regularly , but by and with the churches consent , is dictated without proof . i grant that if particular persons saving interest in gods covenant and promise of grace , were the rule to baptize by , administrators could not observe the rule in faith , but doubtingly . but that such visible interest in the covenant as mr c. means , is therefore the rule to baptize by , follows not . what or where a. r. suggests to the contrary i find not , nor doth mr c. tell us . what he adds , i say visibility of the parties interest in the covenant , i say not meer visibility of faith and repentance , is quite besides the scripture , which never appoints persons to be baptized because of their visible interest in the covenant , but their visible faith and repentance . he tells us , the initiatory seal is not primarily and properly the seal of mens faith and repentance , or obedience , but of gods covenant rather ; the seal is to the covenant , even abrahams circumcision , was not primarily a seal to his faith , of righteousness , but to the righteousness of faith exhibited and offered in the covenant : yea to the covenant it self , or promise which he had believed unto righteousness . hence the covenant of grace is called the righteousness of faith , rom. . , , . the righteousness of faith speaketh on this wise , v. . and the word of faith . hence albeit abraham must walk before god , who is now about to enlarge the covenant to his as well as to make it to him in a church-reference , gen. . , &c. yet the initiatory seal in his as as well as their flesh , is gods covenant , v. . or a sacramentall sign firstly and expresly of gods covenant , v. . & . compared ; albeit it implicitly oblige him and them to other duties formerly mentioned . hence acts . , , the seal of baptism is put to the promise as the choice matter and foundation in view , and as that was a ground of repentance it self ; repent and be baptized for the promise is to you , not , for you have repented as if that were the thing to be firstly sealed by baptism , but the promise rather . answ. the inititory seal is a late devised term not found in scripture and it is used upon an erroneous conceit as if the nature of sacraments were to be seals of the covenant , and baptism were the initiatory seal . but the term [ initiatory seal ] is chosen rather than the word [ baptism ] ( though it be the scripture term ) by mr. c. and others , that they may shuffle what they say in and out under the term of ininitiatory seal , sometimes understanding by it circumcision sometimes baptism as if they were the same and what is said of the one were meant of the other , which is meer fallacious arguing . but setting aside mr. c's lately devised term , the end of christian baptism is in the first place , that thereby the party baptiz●d may testifie his repentance , faith and hope in christ , love to the people of god , and resolution to follow christ to the death . and this is proved in my exercit : in the twelfth reason of my doubting about pedobaptism pag. . in the part of this review sect. . from these scriptures rom. . ▪ . . cor. . . gal. . , . ephe. . . col. . pet. . . where the phrase of the answer of a good conscience , as beza rightly observes in his annot. on that place , alludes to the manner of the primitive baptizing after the answer to the questions propounded concerning the parties repentance , faith and obedience : which were held so necessary to baptism in the first ages of the christian church that none was baptized without it ; yea and when infant baptism came up even till our dayes , and in some places according to the common prayer book even to the infants the same questions are propounded , yea the lutherans confesse that without faith in infants it is in vain to baptize them . the continuance of which questions , as lud : vives comment : in augustin : de civit : dei l. . c. . rightly saith , proves the original use of baptism to be of those only that could answer those questions . in respect of which basil and others call baptism the seal of faith , tertullian of repen●ance , the sealing of faith , chamier : paustr : cath. tom . . l. . c. . cites the treatise of the spirit under the name of bazil ch . . saying , confession goes before bringing to salvation , baptism followes sealing our consent . whence he infers thus manifestly salvation is ascribed to confession , but baptism is the seal of confession . no where that ever i could find among the ancients is baptism termed the seal of the covenant . bucer on acts. . . to be baptized in the name of the lord jesus christ ▪ is by the sign of baptism to testifie that were the believers in christ for remission of sins . grot : annot : on mark. . . [ and is baptized ] he that believeth , and by baptism maketh profession of his faith . so that the profession of faith by it is the primary end and use of baptism nor is there any place of scripture that i know which doth make the end of baptism to be the sealing of gods covenant to us ▪ and here by the way it is to be noted what shifting is used in this matter by pedobaptist . they say the seal follows the covenant and the parties interest in it , and this covenant they make the righteousness of faith as mr. c. here , but when they are pressed that then in vain are infants non-elect and non-believers baptized , who are not in that covenant , they fly to an imaginary external covenant , and visible interest in that as sealed by it , and there by a right to be baptized ; which yet by their own confession is not the covenant of grace , nor by sealing that interest is the covenant of grace sealed , for that is gods covenant of righteousness by faith , not the baptized persons covenant , or his right . as for mr. c's . observations here they are false and slighty . for neither is it true that it is hence ( because baptism is not primarily the seal of mans faith and repentance , but of gods covenant rather ) abrahams circumcision was called a seal of the righteousness of faith : but the contrary rather is true . for if it were a seal of the righteousness of faith which he had yet being uncircumcised , it sealed rather his own faith , and the righteousness by it already obtained , than gods covenant to him of something to come . and if circumcision be called gods covenant , yet it follows not that baptism is rather a seal of gods covenant , than of mans faith and repentance . that which he saith of acts. . . . is as vain : for the promise is not alledged there as sealed in baptism , or giving any right to baptism , but meerly as a motive to them to repent and to be baptized in the sense i give antipaedobapt . part . . sect. . in this part of the review sect. . . , , ▪ wherein mr· c's frivolous interpretation is examined . and though the apostle do not bid them be baptized because they had repented , yet he bids them first to repent and then be baptized . infants have no visible title to baptism because they make no visible personal profession . parental faith in the covenant made to them and their children is but a delusion . what ever may be said of the texts deuteronomy . . . deuteronomy . . , , . &c. concerning taking it of children ( of which in the examining of mr. b's remainder ) there is no visibility of infants church-membership in the christian churches mentioned in scripture . i know not how the believing gods testimony is the assent of charity . i still say there is no judgment of charity concerning infants who do nothing which may be interpreted to the better or the worse . mr. c. if he had recited my words fully in my examen pag. . might have found my words to yeeld him no help for his fourth conclusion . i pass on to the fifth . sect . xli . sect. . animadversions on the sixth sect . of the same ch : shewing that christ is not head of any unsound members , no● parents profession of faith unites children to christ so as to entitle them to baptism . sect. sixthly he sets down this conclusion , that christ is in scripture considered as head of the visible church in which are many members of christ the ●ead in that respect , which prove unsound , as well as in other respects he is considered as head of the visible church , wherein are none but elect ones . concerning which i say , that part of the invisible church which is on earth professing faith , being both visible and invisible , visible in respect of their profession , invisible in respect of their sincere believing ▪ ●t must needs follow that christ is head of the visible , being head of the invisible church in respect of those persons which are of both . and i grant that christs headship being a metaphor and nothing , sundry things as superiority , goverment , direction , union , participation● of the same life , sense , motion &c. in respect of some of these christ may be said to be head of that part which is only visible , as in giving them officers , outward order , direction , help against persecutors &c. but that in scripture christ is made head to any unsound members i find not . mr. c. urgeth gal. . . that to abraham and his seed were the promises made ; that is to christ , yet not to christ personally , for the promise of pardon of sin did not belong to him , and to christ personall were not the promises made , but in him confirmed , gal. . . with . but rather of christ collectively head and members , gentiles and iewes , v. . . as gen. . . the seed of eve is christ , with his members in and with him . answer . i stick not to grant gal. . , by [ christ ] to be meant not onely christ personally considered , but also collectively , as beza , ●iseator , & others conceive ; yet i do not think the arguments brought by them so cogent for that sense , but that it may be understood of christ personall as a common person receiving promises for all his members . for the scope of the apostle to prove gen●iles and jewes to have one manner of justification , is obtained by understanding the promises made to his person as a common person in behalf of all as well as to them as in him , and eternal life is promised to all the members of christ if it be promised to christ as a common person standing in their stead as the second adam . as for mr c. his reasons , the former is against his own opinion . for if by christ be meant christ collectively , that is , christ and his church , then the promises be made to christs person with his church ; for what is christ collectively but christs person with his church . and if the pardon of sin be a promise , then it must be made known to christs person included in christ collective : therfore either it must be said , that the promises were made to christ collective respectively , to wit , some to his person , as that he would uphold him , raise him from the dead , give him glory , others to his church , to pardon their sins , renew their nature , &c. or that christs person had the promise of pardon of sin made to himself as a common person , but not for himself as needing it , but for his church or in their stead , as cor. . . the promises might be said to be given to christs person as a common person , gal. . and yet confirmed in christ as a surety of them , v . yet in this place the term [ head ] is not used , and therefore not apposite to mr. c. his purpose . but mr c. propounds a question , whether this in gal. . & cor. . , . be spoken of the visible or invisible church , and answers it , that it seems the places admit of the consideration of the church as visible . first , in that the apostle speaketh of all the galatian church-members as well as others as one in christ , gal. . . now were all these members elected will any say ? i suppose not yet all are one in christ their head . answer . mr. c. a little before said , gal● ● . , could not be made to christs person , because the promise of the pardon of sin is not made to christ personall , which goes upon this supposition , that the pardon of sin is promised to the seed , gal. . . but sure this promise is made onely to the elect , not to all galatian visible church-members : yea the very scope and coherence of what goes before and after , shew that the promises v. . were of the spirit , v. ● . of the inheritance , v. . of life , v. . which are proper to the elect . and therefore to apply the speech , gal. . . to the unfound members of the visible church , sheweth meer oscitancy . nor is it necessary that because it is said , gal. . . ye are all one in christ iesus , that this must be understood of every galatian church-member , but of all those of whom he had said , v. . that they were all the sons of god by faith in christ jesus . and after , v. . that they were heirs according to the promise , which is true onely of the elect of them . and for what he adds , secondly in that he speaks of them all as sacramentally one with christ in baptism , gal. . , . compared , so cor. , , as if because he saith , they were all baptized , he meant it of all that are baptized , it is refuted from the very words [ by one spirit made to drink into one spirit , put on christ ] which , if there were no more , do shew that these speeches though indefinite , yet pro subjecta materia , must be limited to those visible baptized persons , who were sincere believers , and united to christ by his spirit , and so those words , ephes. . & . . col. . . and many more are to be understood . and to the other reasons , that christ hath headlike influences into the officers and members , many whereof are not savingly joyned to him , and that it is the church wherein he hath set diversity of officers , which is the visible church , not the invisible . i answer , christ as a superior , and in some other respects , may have headlike influences of command , governing , &c. on some not savingly joyned to him , but not the influence of union by his spirit , which is that which makes any members of christ , of his flesh and of his bones , ephes. . . & . . nor is it true , that christ doth not set officers in the invisible church , though it be true that he sets no officers in the church that is onely invisible , but indeed he sets officers in the church invisible , and chiefly to and for them , while they are visible . and therfore the apostle , tim. . . said , he endured all things for the elects sake . hence , saith mr. c. profession of faith unites a man to christ as head of the visible church without sincerity . but the scripture saith not so , that any is united to christ as head without the inhabitation of the spirit . mr. c. adds . hence also a pa●ent , making profession of faith in the covenant of grace as invested with church-covenant in reference to his children , it doth unite them also to christ as head of the visible church so far as to give right to solemn initiation of them into the fellowship of the church in circumcision as of old , or baptism , as now . parents acts in this case being in the face of the visible church , their childrens acts ; ●s the places quoted , deut. . , , & . , , , , , & , , , declared . answer . mr. c. tells us , hence , &c. and this is the consectary he would infer from his fifth conclusion , and minding discourse about it : but how from any thing said before [ that christ is the head of the visible church , that visible professors , though not sincere , are united to christ as visible head ] this follows , that parents profession unites the child to christ , so as to give him right to baptism , is a riddle to me . if it were formed into an argument thus , if the visible professors confession of faith unites him to christ as visible head , then it unites the child so far as to give him right to baptism : but the visible professors , &c. ergo. i should deny the consequence of the major , and expect it to be proved ad graecas calendas , nor is there any proof in that which follows : for were it granted that the parents act were the childs act , yet it follows not that it is the childs act to give a right or title to baptism without an institution . none of the texts produced , no nor any other do shew , that the parents act of professing faith , did entitle the child to circumcision , much less to baptism . cornelius his child was not entitled to circumcision , though he and his house feared god , was a devout man , gave much alms to the poor , and prayed to god alway , acts. . . even in circumcisi on the use of it had its rule onely from the command , as i have often poved . not one of mr. c. his texts mentions the parents acts as entitling the child to fellowship of the church , but obliging to duty , deut. . , , there 's an injunction , that all the males should thrice a year appear before god ; but this was enjoyned not to parents onely , but also to children married or unmarried . and if it prove any thing like what mr. c. would , it proves rather the males act to stand for the females , than the parents for the children . more likely in this the younger males did appear insteed of the aged weak , & so the childs act went for the parents . however here 's nothing of the parents act giving right to initiation into fellowship of the church , there was nothing required to that in the national church of israel but their descent . deut. . , . there 's no mention of a parents act for his child intitling him to solemn initiation into fellowship of the church . what is said [ thou hast avouched this day the lord to be thy god ] is not said to be done by the parents for the children , nor to be done to entitle them to solemn initiation into the fellowship of the church . deut. . , , , , . whose act soever is mentioned whether of the parents , or captains , elders , officers , or men of israel . it was an act done in behalf of the nation both those born already and those to be born after , not to entitle them to initiation into fellowship of the church , but to bind them the more firmly to their duty , and therefore none of these instances are to the point of parents acts in the face of the visible church taken as the childrens acts for solemn initiation in church fellowship . yet if they had , that this had been enough for baptism and church-membership in the christian gentile churches will not be proved , till the rule about circumcision , and the constitution of the jewish church be a rule to us about baptism , and the church-membership of the christian church , which neither agrees with christs or his apostles appointment or the practise in the n. t. nor with the new english principles of church constitution & goverment , but judiazing notions opposi●e to the gospel . what he saith the parents omission to circumcise his child is counted the childs act of breaking gods conant gen. . . depends on this that the parents omission of circumcision is the childs act of breaking covenant . but many protestant divines and others understand it of persons of years as piscat . schol. in locum . diodati , new annot. grotius &c. and though chamier counted it to be understood of the infant tom paustrat : cath. l. . c. . sect. . &c. yet he expounds the verse passively thus , the male , the flesh of whose foreskin is not circumcised that soul shall be cut off from his people : my covenant is broken . either way expounded it is inpertinent to mr. cs. purpose . they that expound it ( as aben ezrae , apud christoph. cartwright on the place ) of the parent understand both the fault and the punishment to be his . it is true iohn . . , . matth. . , to . mark. . , to . parents believing is accepted for the cure of children , and so mark. . . the faith of the bringers of the palsy man was accepted , but this doth not prove a title to baptism by the parents confession any more than by the midwives or gossips bringing to the fo●● ▪ nor was it the confession of faith , but reality ; though not known to men , which christ lookd on , so that if this be a good reason ▪ the fathers praying in secret though not in the face of the visible church should give title to baptism . after many dictates without proof he tels us , as the covenant laid hold on by the lively faith of gratious parents as made with respect to their elect children hath mighty force to effect very gratious things in the elect feed , yea albeit dying young , as sundry of those elect ones of abrahams race did rom. . . yea so as to make their outward washings to become effectual in christ to an inward cleansing ephes. . . . yea so as to bring in and bring home many of such covenant-children . whence those revolters beloved for their covenant-fathers sake as such , rom. . . and hence made as a ground of their return ▪ v. , . so is there such validity in the covenant invested with church covenant , albeit but unworthily oft-times held forth by the parents , which doth beget upon the children an externall filiall relation unto god and to his spouse the visible church , whence that respect of children of god and his church , by vertue of that espousall covenant , ezek. . . even in the children of idolatrous members , v. : . great is the force of this way of the covenant so cloathed . albeit many unworthy members are gi●t up in it , to hold them and theirs in externall communion , jer. . . untill either the church be divorced from god , or the particular members be disfranchised by some church-censure of such a covenant-privilege . answer . though this reasoning contain nothing but dictates unproved , and incoherent , yet sith it carries some shew of an argument à comparatis , i shal say somwhat to it . . there 's not aword in the texts alleged , that shews what mr c. here asserts , that the covenant laid hold upon by the lively faith of gracious parents as made with respect to their children , hath mighty force to effect very gracious things in the elect seed : nor is there a word in those texts to prove such a covnnant made to any gracious parent concerning his naturall children . it is true , rom. . it is said , the word took effect ; and this i deny not to be the word of promise to abraham , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed . but then it is expresly said , v. , . that this seed of abraham is not his children by natural generation , but the speciall choice seed whether they were his seed according to nature , or ingraffed : there 's not a word of the efficacy of this covenant by the lively faith of the parents , but by vertue of gods election , v. . the text , ephes. . . seems to me to contain not onely the word of promise , as sanctifying or purifying the church , but also the word of narration contained in the gospel , as luke . acts . . & . . . joh. . . . rom. . . preached and believed , not by the parents but the parties purified , acts . . who as they hear the word and believe , so are baptized upon their believing . it is true that the jewes hereafter to be ingraffed again , are said , according to the election to be beloved for the fathers , rom. . . but this is meant of the jewes onely , and it is not at all meant of the immediate parents of those jewes reingraffed ( for they doubtless will be infidels ) but of the ancient fathers , abraham , isaac , jacob , out of the remembrance of their following god , and gods covenant to them , which were both singular , and therefore cannot be verrified of every believers natural children as it is there meant and shall be verified of them . . there 's not a proof for the other part of the comparison , that there is any such validity in the covenant invested with church-covenant albeit unworthyly oftentimes held forth by the parents to beget upon the children an external filial relation unto god and to his spouse the church visible . for ezek. . mentions gods covenant which he swear , not their's , by which they became his , and those whose sons and daughters were born to him v. . are said to sacrafice them to be devoured , had caused them to be slain , and deliverd them to pass through the fire for them . mr. c. confesseth they were idolatrous members , and the text mentions their idolatry to be of the highest kind , even the sacraficing their children , and if these were in the covenant of grace and in church-covenanant , and did thereby beget an external filial relation to god , and to his spouse the visible church , then may the worst of men even open idolatrers that offer their children to moloch and sacrafice them to the devil be in the covenant of grace , and in church-covenant , and therby in those whom god hates and who go a whoring after idols , yea the devils in a most horrid manner , there may be validity in this horrid estate to beget an external filial relation unto god & to his spouse , the visible church for their children . horrendum dictu ! the meaning of the text , and the impertinency of its allegation by the assembly , by mr. c. and others hath been often shewed . jerem. . . makes nothing to the purpose . god in the wilderness had made the whole house of israel to cleave to him in the covenant at mount sinai , and by his special deliverances and providences for them . what is this to prove that the idolatrous posterity of that people are by the covenant clothed with church-covenant held to god they and theirs in external church-communion until either that church be devorced from god , o● the particular members disfranchised by some church censure of a church covenant privilege ? . were the first part of the comparison proved , that the covenant laid hold on 〈◊〉 the lively faith of the parents as made with respect to their elect children hath mighty force to effect very gratious things in the elect seed , yet there is not any liklyhood that the other part should be true , that a bare dissembled profession should make such an external relation to god and his church , as if because peters faith and confession obtains from god a special privilege , judas his profession must obtain something of god for his children though he were a devil . if there be strength in these dictates of mr. c. their 's weakness is nothing . the answers to the objections of i. s. proceed upon a conceit of a relative grace , and implicit calling , and of in-being in christ without either christs spirit , or faith , or profession of faith , which are things that have no scripture grounds . the absurdity objected against his opinion that it entails grace to generation , that it upholds a national church , ●e puts off only thus , he knowes we in n. e. which hold the one , yet do not maintain the other in the usual sence of a national church . but this shewes not how he will acquit his doctrine from maintaining that by consequence , which is disavowed by those of n. e. for if there be such a covenant and church covenant now as there was deut. . , , . and ezek . . . . of validity to beget an external filial relation to god and to his visible spouse the church , it cannot be denied , but that the worst idolaters even papists are visible church-members , and by consequent the whole nation elder and ●onger are in the church . which what it makes less than such a national church as was of the jews i understand not . sect . xlii . animadversions on sect. : of the same chap. shewing that the body of the jewish church even the worst of them was not under the covenant of grace in respect of external interest therein . in the seaventh sect. mr. c ▪ sets down this conclusion , that the body of the jewish church was under the covenant of grace as invested with church covenant , in respect of external interest therein . in which as almost in all his writings about this point , there 's much ambiguity . he neither sheweth whom he means by the body of the jewish church whether every jew or some only , and if some who those are whether the most part or the chiefest ; nor what he means by the covenant of grace , what promise they are under nor how they are under it : nor doth explain what he means by church-covenant or investing with it , nor what is the external interest therein which they have , nor how they are under the covenant of grace as invested with church covant in respect of external interest therein , and not with respect to internal interest . for my part so far as i am able to discern his meaning this is it , that all the jews from the promise made to abraham i wil be thy god & the god of thy seed gen. . . have this privilege ; that all should be accounted members of that church and the males circumcised . but i know not how it comes to pass , this author either affects , or it is his vein to use ambiguous expressions when he might use plain , and to talk in a new phrases hard to be understood of the covenant , seal , church-seed &c. and not to explain his conclusions afore he proves , nor to shew how he proves out of the text he allegeth , but leaves his reader to fish out his meaning as he can from scattered passages . however i shall view his dictates . he denies that the jewes had only a covenant of grace among them which was made to some choice ones among them . and yet the apostle directly teacheth that the promise i will be a god to thee and thy seed as a promise of saving grace was not made to all israel , but the elect only rom. . , , . and clear it is that the covenant made with the body of the israelites at mount sinai was the covenant of workes , as is plain from rom. . . cor. . , , . gal. . , and . , . heb. ▪ , , . &c. and . , , . it is false that he hath any where proved that the external & ecclesiastical right to circumcision came from the circumcised persons interest in the covenant of grace invested with church-covenant . neither did god appoint all them to receive the visible seal thereof meaning circumcision : for he did not appoint the females or males under eight dayes old to be circumcised though in the covenant as well as the infant male of eight dayes old . he bids us see gen. . , , , , , , . and . , , . and . , , . but i can see none of his dictates in those texts . i find there that god made a covenant with abraham . after renewed it to isaac and jacob assuring to their inheriting posterity the inheritance of canaan , the multiplying of them &c. that god injoyned circumcision to them for a memorial and assurance of that covenant . this covenant as , containing the promise of canaan &c. to the natural postority of abraham , isaac and jacob ▪ is expressed to be by reason of abrahams obedience gen. . . circumcision is required gen. . and exod. . levit. . obedience is required to the laws given by moses . they that term the covenant exo. . a covenant of works speak sutable to the apostle rom. . . gal. . . yet i deny not but in covert expressions gen. . and elswere god promised christ to the elect whether jews or gentiles and blessing that is righteousness and eternal life by faith in him gal. . . &c. which abraham and all the ancient saints expressed by faith iohn . . . and elswhere . now it is not true , that those covenant fathers abraham , isaac and iacob recieved the covenant evaneglical in referrence to their natural children : nor in respect of justification before god and external life had a contrary covenant of life and death , grace and workes made with them . for though the jews succeding were under the whole law of moses because of transgressions , yet not so as to have life by it gal. . , , , . no● is it any absurdity to say that the legal justitiaries who rested in the law were at one and the same time externally under the blessing of god in respect of their outward prosperity in canaan , and yet internally under the curse of god gal. . . as seeking righteousness before god by their observing the law. it is , no where said that any other than abraham is the root or first fruits to his seed rom . . nor they termed his seed , lump , branches any other way than either naturally or spiritually , that is by natural generation or by following his faith by vertue of election rom. . doth not say , abraham was the root as recieving the covenant for the branches , but as propagating the branches . nor need we say that he either received a covenant o● works alone , in referrence to them all elected , or that he recieved the covenant of grace with ecclesiastical respect to them all . the plain doctrine of the scripture is set down above , mr. c's . dictates are meer phantasms without scripture . the substance of the covenan● is a novel expression , and ambiguous . i deny not the covenant gen. . to be evangelical . yet i concieve it not purely such , but as i say in my exercit. pag. . mixt , that is containing political and evangelical promises . i deny not but it was the jews covenant-right to have the tabernacle of god or their ordinances as their privilege , yea and his presence therein until the messiah came , yet so as that when thay set up idols the glory of god departed from them ezek. . , . they had also gods oracles with them , deliverance from egypt , christ to be with them in the wilderness : nor do i deny these to have bin by vertue of christs mediation , yet so far as these were national mercies they were proper to the jews . what ever be meant by the covenant & the promise rom . they do not agree to gentile believers . and though i say they were by vertue of christs mediation , yet i concieve the mediation of christ was directly for the elect only , for others only obliquely , by consequent , and by accident by reason of the cohabitation of them on earth . i deny not that filling the temple with smoake rev. . . allusively to that which was kings . . , . isai. . , , , . might restifie the presence of god in the churches after christs ascension in a way of mercy to his people , and for their sakes in a way of justice against his and their enemies . i neither do , nor need say that canaan was all which god promised the jews i grant it was promised to them as an everlasting possession gen. . . but the ▪ wrod 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which the gr : translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , everlasting , notes freequently but a duration of some age or ages as chron. . . &c. i deny not but the patriarchs looked futher than canaan heb. . , . i deny not that the promise of canaan was in some sense ratified in christ , and all other temporal blessings to the elect now cor. . , , . that christ is said to drive out their enemies exod. . , . and that the land they possessed was called immanuel● land es●i . that sundry were excluded from thence for unbelief heb. ▪ la●● compared with ch . . though if it be not warily explained moses and aaron should be guilty of the gospel sin of unbelief . if god promised to be a god to them , and as one branch thereof instanceth in giving them canaan gen. , , . then the promise of canaan is a branch of the promise , i wil be a god to them ▪ if the proselyted strangers were to have abrahams covenant sealed to them and theirs by circumcision , yet had no lots in can●an , then persons were to be circumcised to whom the promise belonged not . i grant that christ was mediator of the covenant with abraham so far as it contains evangelical promises , but deny that it was held out to all the jews by the sacrafices . for though the typical sacr●fices in respect of purif●ing the flesh did purge the whole congregation , yet none were pur●ed by christs blood , but the elect . the high preist bare the names of the . tribes and these represented the elect for whom christ made intercession , and atonement not every i●raelite rom. . . what mr. c. saith , the covenant of works holds out pardon or mercy to transgress i do much question . it seems to me that a●ab , though under a covenant of works yet , had some mercy kings . . and whether the offence against some of the laws were not in some respect forgiven levit. . to them , who had not faith in christ , for the sacrafice they offered ( which were all offered according to the law heb. . . ) i do make question . nor do i think but that by the covenant of the law in respect of temporal evils there was some pardon by vertue of obedience to legal prescriptions , though some sins as of presumption num . were not , no not to them that were in the covenant of grace , as its li●ely in eli. his case sam. . . see gethard . ioh. voss. resp . ad judic . ravensp . c. . . concerning the covenant of the law though it require no faith in christ , or repentance for justification , yet whether according to the covenant of the law some repentance were not accepted for revoking some temporal evils contrary to the promises of the covenant with the iews at mount sinai may be doubted from deut. . . and . , , , , . but of these chapters . more hereafter in answer to m. b. i grant no salvation but by christ , but denies that therefore al the iews best & worst had salvation & external covenant-right : nor though al the iews best , & worst , had the same dispensers of the covenant mentioned exod. . . . & . . . wil it follow they had all right at least externally in the covenant of grace . for that speaks of the covenant of the law . i grant that the first covenant of works was made withal in adam , and that the covenant gen. . was a particular covenant made with the seed of abraham , yet the covenant at mount sinai was not made with all men , without distinction , but only with israel , whom he brought out of egypt ▪ the jews ro. . . were broken off from the invisible church of true believers , which was in that nation in their progenitors , as i shew in the first part of this review sect. . &c. i agree with mr. c. that the covenant in horeb deut. . . . with deut. . . had the stipulation of , do this and live , and that the covenant of the law was differnt from the promise , gen. . that it held out temporals , this externals . how the gentiles were ingraffed in the room of the iewes , and not into the externall right & privilege , as by mr c. imagines is shewed in the review , ubi supra , that the covenant of sinai was without mercy , i question as above . and methinks , ezek. . . proves , that god would remember his covenant with israel in the dayes of their youth , and shew them mercy for it . now the covenant made with israel in the dayes of its youth , is meant of the covenant made with them when they came out of egypt : for so the whole description of their pitiful estate ( which can be referred to no other than the time of their bondage in egypt , v. , , , . after which was his covenant in the dayes of their youth , v. ) shews the covenant in the dayes of their youth to have been the covenant at mount sinai . and so the new annot. on ezek. , , [ i sware unto thee ] i made a solemn covenant with thee that i would take thee to be my people , exod. & chapters , ier. . . piscat . s ▪ hol : in v. ▪ nudissima ] i. e. destituta omni ope pressa , sc : servitute in aegypto , in v : , visitari te per mosen educendo te ex aegypto & pangendo tecum fedus atque ita ducendo te in uxorem . grot. in ezek ▪ . , populus enim in aegypto natus est in v. . & sic exprimitur miseria ge●tis in aegypto in v. , & ingressus sum pactum tecum ] in sinai . as for mr c. his paraphrase on ezek. . . i will remember my covenant with [ thee ] not with this or that particular jew , but with them all in an ecclesiastical way , and in respect of externall right : albeit some onely had the saving benefits thereof , as being the select covenanters mainly intended , he therein supposeth that some had the saving benefit of that covenant , which is contrary to rom. . that by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in gods sight . and he supposeth the covenant was made with them all in an ecclesiasticall way , and in respect of externall right . which what it is else but this , that they should all have a right to circumcision , and other ecclesiastical privileges , i know not : whereas the covenant was of prosperity in canaan , continuance of long life , &c. to them upon obedience to the law he gave them by moses , which notwithstanding they had broken , & were carried captive ; yet he would remember his covenant made with that people when he brought them out of aegypt , and upon the prayers of daniel , &c. restore them to their own land , esay , , , &c. teacheth the jewes , that notwithstanding they were evill , yet he would for his names sake , that the heathens might not say that god could not deliver them and bring them from the north , v. , , . the like is , ezek. , . the objection from rom. , , is ill framed , and as ill answered : . it is proved from the text , that the promise of ful●●lling , of which the apostle speaks , was the promise to abraham , i will be the god of thy seed , gen. . . from the terms used rom. . , . which shews that the question was , how gods word could be true concerning abrahams seed , if the jewes were rejected , as the apostle supposeth , v. ● . . that the answer is directly this , that this promise was not made to all israel , or to all the children of the flesh , that is , begotten of abraham by naturall generation , for it was not promised to ishmael and esau , but to the elect as isaac and jacob , whence this proposition ariseth , they onely are children of the promise ( that is by an usuall hebra●sm ) subjects of the promise to whom it belong , as children of wrath to whom wrath belongs , a son of perdition to whom perdition belongs ) who are elect , therefore not all the naturall seed of abraham . and consequently the promise . gen. . . belonged not in the evangelicall sense to the body of the jewes , even the worst . now what doth mr. c. answer ? he distinguisheth between children of the promise , in respect of externall filiation , and externall salvation , and applies it thus , in the later they were not , but if you take it of the church-seed of the promise , and such as were externally adopted of god , and instated in the covenant of grace as invested with church covenant , so they were children even of the free covenant of blessing in christ , acts , , , and had the promise indefinitly , as deut : . , jerem : . , gen. . . in which answer . . he makes a distinction to include them in the promise whom the apostle excludes from it . . whereas the apostle determines the elect onely to be included in the promise taken in an evangelicall sense , mr. c. includes the elect and non-elect , even the worst of the iewes whom the apostle excludes . . he abuseth acts . , , deut : . , by interpreting them as belonging to the worst of the jewes in respect of externall right , which are express about turning from iniquities and circumcising the heart , the second objection is better framed , yet not so fully as had been requisite : mr c. his conclusion is , that the covenant of grace as invested with church-covena●nt , belonged to all the iewes even the worst of them , in respect of externall right to outward ordinances . but that is false : for it did not belong to the children after the flesh , to the jerusalem that then was , which was in bondage with her children , they were to be cast out being of the bond●woman , gal. . , , , , . ergo , the covenant of grace , &c. again , they to whom belongs the covenant of grace as invested with church-covenant in respect of externall right , are children of the promise , gen. . . but many of the iewes were not children of the promise , gen. . . as is proved from gal. . , , rom. . ergo , now what doth mr. c. answer ? he tells us , that they are called children of the flesh , not begotten by naturall generation , for then isaac also should be a child of the flesh . but he is called a child of the flesh , who though born by naturall generation of abraham , yet sought righteousness by the law , which was not ierusalem of old , but ierusalem which was when paul wrote this , long after christs time . res. but was not it true also of the ierusalem that was when christ was ? did not our lord christ deny them to be abrahams childrē , & told them they were the divels children , iohn . , . though he granted them to be abrahams seed by natural generation , v. . and yet mr c calls them abrahams church-seed , or church-seed of the promise instated in the covenant of grace , as invested also with church-cavenant , children even of that free covenant of blessing in christ , acts . , , and had the promises indefinitly , as deut. , . jer. , . gen. . . &c. beloaging to them , rom. . . and were children of god , christs , matth. , . i deny not but iohn . . those that rejected christ are called christs own , but not because of their right in him , or promise to them to own them as in the covenant of grace , but as they were ingaged to him in respect of his deliverance out of aegypt , and other mercies to them , and their nearness of consanguinity to him , as paul calls israel his flesh , rom. . , christ being from them according to the flesh , rom. , . but to say that even then they were in the covenant of grace when they received not christ , is to conceive they were in the olive when they were broken off . and yet i deny not that they had in christs time a right to circumcision , but no externall right to the covenant of grace , as mr c. dreams . sect . lxiii . that the covenant at mount sinai was a covenant of works , and not of evangelical grace , and that the iewish church and state were but one body . a third objection against mr c. his sixth conclusion is , they were under the old and first covenant which was formerly , &c. and not under the new , or in the covenant of grace . to this he answers , that even sinai covenant could not disanull that covenant formerly made with them in abraham , and being much later than it , gal : . , . and after , when the covenant is said to be new and old , it is not divisio generis in species , but subjecti in adjuncta . so the phrases [ first and second ] heb. , note not two testaments specifically different , but numerically . besides , it 's called a first and second testament , scil ▪ in order of succession : so the former is said to be faulty comparatively , not absolutely . in a word , in way and manner of dispensation , that was different from the covenant now dispensed in respect of ceremony of administration , not in the essentials . reply , the answer of mr c. i conceive is reduced to these two points , . that the jewes were under both covenants , that of sinai , and that of abraham : . that these two covenants the first and the second , the new and old , mentioned heb : , & . differ in the way and manner of dispensation , in respect of ceremony of administration , not in the essentials . to which i reply , that this is contrary to the apostles supposition , that the same men which were under the covenant of mount sinai , should be under the promise : for he supposeth them to be cast out , gal : . , , and saith , v. , we are not children of the bondwoman , that is , under the law , v : , but of the free , that is , the promise . yea , cha : . , if yee be led by the spirit ye are not under the law. the like whereto is said , rom : : , gal : , , , , i deny not but that the iews who were under the covenant of grace , that is , believers in christ were both under the obedience of the law , and the hope of the gospel , and under the covenant of the law so far as concerned their prosperity in canaan , but not in respect of righteousness and life , or any other ecclesiasticall privilege . as for the other part of the answer , i find mr perkins on gal : , , , saying it is a main pillar in popish religion , that the law of moses and the gospel are all one in substance , &c. which i know not well how to distinguish from mr c. his position , that the new and old covenant differ not in essentials . but let 's examine it , the essentials of a thing are the genus and difference : it is granted that the new and old , first and second covenant differ not in the genus , no more doth the covenant with adam in innocency with noah after the flood , they are all covenants of god : but that there is no essentiall difference distinguishing between the covenant at mount sinai , and the new covenan● ; and that they differ in way and manner of dispensation , in respect of ceremony of administration , not in the essentials , ●s i am assured , a manifest error both against scripture , and i think the authors themselves , though not only mr c. here , but also the assembly confession of faith , c. . art. . saith , the covenant of grace was administred , &c. and is called the old testament , which to be meant of the covenant of mount sinai , i conceive from these words of mr m : d●f●nce page . alas sir , why do you run into this needless and erroneous digression ? i said in my sermon that the morall law was added years after the covenant with abraham , not as a part of that covenant , but as a school-master to whip them to christ , that they finding the impossibility of keeping the law , might more earnestly long after christ , exhibited in those shadowes of rites and sacrifices , &c. but to say that this covenant mentioned in the eighth of the hebrews , was the covenant of works , is a most erroneous doctrine : look into the text and you shall find that the covenant which is there mentioned ( which god finds fault with , and calls the first covenant , in opposition to this better covenant ) had ordinances of divine worship , had a sanctuary , a tabernacle , , priests and high-priests , sacrifices and other rites belonging to the administration of it . sir , was this the covenant of works ? i hope you will not own it in your next . mr anthony burgess , another assembly man , vindic. legis , lect. , maintains with a distinction , the law at mount sinai to be a covenant of grace , like whereto are the opinions of mr john ball of the covenant of grace . ch . , page , dr. samuel boulton , true bounds of christian freedom , page ▪ &c. mr thomas blake , vindic. foeder . c. , &c. but as in other things there is much dictating besides the scriptures , in the received writings of men , so in this . mr c. saith , the difference between the old and new covenant , is in the way and manner of dispensation in respect of ceremony of administration , not in the essentials . concerning which it is to be observed , that to dispense is to lay out as a steward doth lay out money . to dispense a covenant may be understood either by making it known , or performing the things promised on either side ; the same may be conceived to be meant by administration . the ceremony of administration i understand not what it is , unless by it be meant the rites of the old and new testament . this then seems to be either all or the main difference mr c. makes between the covenant made with israel at mount sinai , and the new covenant confirmed in the blood of christ with jewes and gentiles ; that the former had circumcision , the passover , sacrifices , &c. by which the covenant of grace was made , or the things promised conferred , the new covenent had baptism and the lords supper . a covenant is a promise , and so an action ; and when mutuall there 's a reciprocall action . i know not what other predicament to place it in . the essentials of a thing are in corporeall substances , matter and forme , in other beings those things which in proportion to them shew what it is , and wherein it is differenced from others under the same genus , which essentials the logicians call the genus and difference . the essentiall difference of one action from another , is the terminus or effect , as heating from cooling , in the object , subject , end . a covenant being essentially a promise , differs essetntially from another promise , when the things promised are different , as the promise of land differs essentially from the promise of life ; and when the conditions are different , though the things promised be the same , as the promise of land to one for so much money is essentially different from the promise of land upon the condition of thanks . the covenant of works and of grace , are terms not used in scripture . but rom. . , , election by grace and of works , rom , , it is said , to him that worketh the reward is reckoned not according to grace , but according to debt , ephes. . , , yee are saved by grace , not of works , tim : . , who hath saved us , and called us with an holy calling , not according to our works , but according to his own purpose and grace , titus . . he saved us not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his own mercy . yet i think the distinction right and good of the covenant of grace and the covenant of works . and the difference between them is , . in the thing promised , the one promiseth life upon obedience to the law given , but not strength to do it ; the other promiseth the spirit to inable for doing . . in the condition the one promiseth life upon perfect obedience , the other upon faith in christ. these differences are confirmed from sundry texts , rom : . . cor. . , , gal. . , , , &c. i think in a promise the different end of the promiser makes not an essential difference . i think it is the same promise essentially when one promiseth land upon condition of giving thanks , to shew his bounty ; and another to engage him to his party , though the ends be different . my determination in this writing is as it was in the former exam. page . that the new covenant is not the old renewed , but that they differ specifically in the essentials , and not onely in rites , and that the covenant at mount sinai was a covenant of works : and this i prove , . from that text which here mr. c. mr m. the assembly and others stand so much upon , to wit , heb , , . & . the old covenant there meant , is the covenant made with israel at mount sinai , which appears in that it was the covenant which god made with the fathers of the iewes in the day that he took them by their hand to bring them out of the land of aegypt . now that covenant differs essentially more than in rites from the new covenant ; yea , as a covenant of works is diffrent from the covenant of evangelical grace , ● . because the new covenant is said to be established or setled as a law ●n better promises , heb : . . now if the promises be better promises , it is because they be of better things ▪ and if of better things then of different things , and so the difference is more than in rites , yea it is in essentials : for promises of different things essentially , make different covenants essentially . and that the difference is in the meliority of promises : and that these promises be of better things , is apparent from the recitall of the promises , heb : ● . , , . & . ●● . ● , where also by the offering of christ , that testament is said to be of force . by this also the covenant at mount sinai is proved not to be the covenant of gospel-grace : for then it had had as good promises , yea the same promises . . if it had been the covenant of grace , they had abode in it . for that is a covenant , which they that are in continue in . but in the old covenant , or that at mount sinai they abode not , v. . ergo , &c. . that is not the covenant of grace which is faulty , or ( which is the meaning of ●t ) occasioning god to complain , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which we translate faultless , is that which is without complaint , and the meaning is , the first covenant occasioned complaint of the israelites , as it is v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , complaining of them ( he doth not say it , as mr. m. seems to have understood it , as if god had found fault with the covenant ; that 's a mistake , he should then have found fault with his own act ) he saith , therefore for remedy of such complaint and jarring , a second covenant was established , which should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , plaintless , and therefore the covenant of grace takes away occasion of complaint , or finding fault , because it provides for them to whom it was made , that they should not occasion god to complain by their breaking of it , as the first covenant had done , which was faulty , occasioning god to complain in that it was broken . mr. c. saith , it was faulty comparatively , not absolutely , and his meaning seems to be that the first covenant was faulty because of its imperfect manner of teaching the gospel . but he is therein mistaken : for , as i shewed from the words , the first covenant is said to be faulty , because of the complaint of god against the israelites , as not keeping ●t , as the holy ghost expounds the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , v. . by the expression v. . proving it not to have been faultless , that is , without complaint , because he complained of them , v. , to wit , that they abode not in it . v. . which if it had been the covenant of evangelical grace , they should certainly have done , because that provides for the keeping and perseverance in it , by writing the lawes in their hearts , and forgiving their sins . . the same is further proved from chap. . , &c. where . the covenant at mount sinai is set down as given with horror , to shew that it begat nothing but affrightments even in the best moses himself , whereas the covenant of grace begets joy and gladness before god. . it is said the hebrew christians were not come to , therefore it was not the covenant of grace . . that they were come to jesus the mediator of the new covenant , v. . in opposition to moses the mediator of the old . . from ch . , . where the blood of the new covenant is said to sanctifie . and ch . . . christ brings back the sheep by the blood of he everlasting covenant . this everlasting covenant is that which was confirmed by the blood of christ oppositly , or in contradistinction to that which was confirmed by the blood of calves and goats , heb. . . therefore that covenant was not everlasting , nor confirmed by christs blood , and consequen●y not the covenant of grace . the same is the express doctrine of paul , gal. . . where he saith , agar and sara are two covenants , and he saith , agar , or one covenant , was ▪ from mount sinai , and that this genders to bondage , and is in bondage with her children , v. . calls them that are under it such as are begotten according to the flesh , v. . to be cast out , v. . and opposeth it to sarah , that is , the promise , the jerusalem above who is free , mother of all believers , begetting children of the promise , born after the spirit , children of the free woman . now what is this but the covenant of grace , and the other of works . for the covenant of grace never genders to bondage , nor is in bondage with her children , who are not according to the flesh to be cast out , but free , the mother of believers , bringing forth children of the promise born after the spirit , children of the free woman . therefore the covenant at mount sinai , was not the same with the covenant of gospel-grace , but a covenant of works . . in the same epistle , chap. . . he saith , the law is not of faith , that is the covenant of the law doth not promise righteousness before god upon faith , but by works ▪ v. . therefore the covenant of the law was not the covenant of gospel-grace . . the same is expressed v. , , , , where the law is opposed to the promises , the inheritance is denied to be by it , or that it could give life , or righteousness by it , therefore it is not the covenant of grace , for life , righteousness and inheritance is by it . the like is gal : . . rom : . , , , , & , , . . from rom . . where the apostle expresly saith , that moses described the righteousness of the law that the man that doth them shall live in them , and this he makes opposite to the word of faith : whence it follows it was the covenant of works , which was the law : for what is the covenant of workes but that which promiseth life by doing the law ? nor doth it make against it to say , the apostle , v. . saith , christ was the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth : for in whatsoever sense that be meant , yet it is certain the denomination of a covenant of grace or of works , is not taken from the end of the covenanter , or the consequent on the covenant or command , but the promise and condition ; therefore what ever end god had in giving the law , or what event soever fell out upon it , yet the covenant of the law promising righteousness upon perfect obedience to the law , and not otherwise , it is to be termed a covenant of works , not of gospel-grace . . from rom. . . where the apostle saith , sin shall not have dominion ●ver you , for ye are not under the law , but under grace , which supposeth that they who are under the law , are not under grace ; which cannot be understood of the command of the law , for men may be and are under the command of it , and yet under grace : therefore by the law is meant the covenant of the law , and then they which are under the covenant of the law , are not under grace , which they should be , i● the covenant of the law were generally the same with the covenant of grace . . from rom : . . we are dead to the law by the body of christ , v. , we are delivered , or as i would read it , we are discharged ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) from the law , even the moral law , v. . not as a rule of obedience , but as a husband , or covenant , on which we depend for maintenance , help , supply , sentence , countenance , reward . but if the law were the covenant of grace , we should not be dead to it , or delivered from it : ergo. . from cor. , , the covenant of the law is called the letter which killeth , opposite to the new covenant in which the spirit which quickneth is ministred , and v . he expresly calls it the ministration of death graven in stones , the ministration of condemnation , v. , opposite to the ministration of righteousness , of which paul denies himself to be a minister , therefore it was not the covenant 〈◊〉 evangelical grace , but of works . yea mr cobbet himself , page . the covenant in horeb had the stipulation of . do so and live , not so in the covenant of grace that was imbondaging , shewed the way of worship , gave not grace to act it , was against us , &c. the assembly confess . of faith , c. . art. . ch . , art. ● , cite gal : . , rom. ▪ , gal. , , which speak of the covenant of the law to shew the covenant of workes made with adam , which shews they take them , to be the same , or heed not what they cite , chap. . art. . true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works , not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works . greater catech : page . the regenerate are delivered from the morall law as a covenant of works . yea mr m. his words denying the law to be part of the covenant made to abraham , but as a schoolmaster to whip them to christ , impossible to be kept ( which are not to be ●rid of the covenant of grace ) doth in effect make it the covenant of works . mr anthony burgess when he distinguisheth vindic . legis , lect . . pag. , saith the law considered more largly , as that whole doctrine delivered on mount sinai with the preface and promises adjoyned , and all things that may be reduced to it , was a covenant of grace , but more strictly , as it is an abstracted rule of righteousness holding forth life upon no terms but perfect obedience abstracted from moses his administration of it ; was not of grace but of works . in which words , he denies not that it held forth life upon no terms but perfect obedience , and so it was a covenant not of grace but of works . he shews not that it was given as a covenant upon any other terms , or that it did propound or promise righteousness before god upon condition of faith in christ : but only tels us , take the law for the whole doctrine &c. which is in effect all one as to say , the covenant god made was of works , yet withal he delivered many things , which shewed he would also have them look at christ , ( which we grant true ) but no where that he promised righteousness through christ in that covenant mr. blake vindic. faed c . pag. . the law is taken sometimes in that strict sense as containing a covenant of works and holding forth life upon condition of perfect obedience . so rom. . , . and . , . gal . . it were no hard matter to shew many of protestant writers who call the covenant of the law at mount sinai the covenant of works , but these suffice . what is objected to the contrary is not from the tenor of the cov●nant , but from some adjuncts of it . as because there were sacrafices & other rites appointed , it must be a covenant of grace . answer ▪ the sacrafices as they were commanded , so they did belong to the covenant of works . but as god used them as shadows and types of christ to come , so they signifie gods purpose o● gospel-grace in christ , but by another covenant , not that at mount sinai . gods end was not to give life by the law , but to direct to christ. answer i grant the first and thence it appears he intended it not for a covenant of grace . . it directed not to christ as it was propounded covenant-wise , but by accident in that it made known sin , and so made christ appear necessary , and this also proves that it was of it self as propounded a covenant of workes . god could not enter into a covenant of works with man fallen . answer : true , so as to justifie him by it , yet for other ends he may , as to discover sin , shew mans impotency . as christ said to the young man matth. ● . if thou wilt enter into life keepe the commandements though he knew he could not have life that way , and v . commands him to sel all , though it did but shew his covetousness , not make him perfect . the covenant of grace is to be judged such , from the tenor of the promise and condition , not from gods ends . for if so , then the gospel it self , being sent to some to harden them , should be a covenant of works , because the end was to to condemn them by it , that god begins the decalogue with i am the lord thy god &c. answ , he is said to be the god of the spirits of all flesh : numb . . . yet thereby is not proved all are in the covenant of grace . it may be understood , that he was their god de jure , that he had right to command them , because he brough them out of egypt . the plain answer is that he was their god according to the covenant of grace made with abraham antecedently to the giving of the law , not by the covenant of the law. and for that which is often objected that in the second commandement god promised mercy to thousands , but he promiseth no mercy but in a covenant of grace , i know how that can be proved , i concieve that god did and doth shew temporall mercies out of his long patience , by the covenant of the law , though no man be justified by it before god. neither psal. . . nor any other prove that the covenant at mount sinai was the same with that to abraham , though the promise of canaan was to a generations , yet on condition of obedience dan. . ierem. . , , , . when they brake gods laws they were expelled , and so when they slew the heir of the lord of the vic●ard he took his kingdome from them and gave it to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it , matth. . . i do not say that a naturall covenant ex natura rei , is a covenant of works , but it is undoubted , that the covenant on mount sinai was a covenant made with the whole nation of the jewes , and it is proved before to have been a covenant of works . it is untruly said , that the gospel●covenant , gal. . . was of a national nature . for that is a national covenant , which is made with a whole nation , that is all the people descended from such a st●●k , whereas v. . the apostle by saying , so then they that are of the faith of abraham are blessed with faithful abraham , plainly expounds who he means by all nations v. . to wit not whole nations , but believers of all nations . the covenant of works at mount sinai though it did not justifie before god ; yet it held that nation in canaan till they set up other gods and revolted from the true god , and upon their forsaking idols , they might plead it for the restoring of them to their own land , or continuance in it . yea god did condescend so far that if there had been in ierusalem a man that had executed judgment and sought truth he would have pardoned it , and not brought the chaldeans upon it to burn it ierem , . . it is true the gospel threatens and executes corporal punishments , and promiseth rewards to the disobeying or obeying of it , but not an expulsion out of or setling in any one country of an entire nation , but personal evils or rewards upon personal disobedience or obedience . the covenant of grace admits of no carnal hypocrites , nor is it so said gal . , , . though it 's not denied but many who are admitted into the visible church are such . to the eight objection , that was in the flesh , this in the heart , mr. c. speaks thus . answ. was that only in their flesh ? was not the word of covenant as well in their heart as moses judging ecclesiastically avoweth of israel deut. . , . &c with . , , , . so isai. . . gods covenant now is to write his law in our hearts heb. . but is not all that included in this , i will be your god ? whence all is inclosed up in that phrase ibid. or was not the first made to the iews after their return from captivity more expresly , ier. ● ▪ as before more implicitely gen. . reply . the objection i concieve ( though i do not well know whose it is ) is this , that the covenant at mount sinai with the iewish nation , or the covenant with abraham . gen. . were not the same with the covenant , for that was in the flesh in circumcision , or with the fleshly iew in that at mount sinai , this is the heart by writing gods law there and comprehends onely them in whose hearts gods laws are written . and indeed this difference the apostle makes between the covenant of the law and the go●pel , the one was of the letter , the other of the spirit cor. . . the promise of the spirit is said to be by faith gal. . . and in the new covenant this is made the promise different from what was in the first which was faulty for want of it heb. . . ● that god would write his laws in their hearts . now what mr. c. speaks seems to me no whit to infring this . for though it is true , the word of covenant was in their hearts , yet it is true , if meant of sanctifying implantation , only of the elect , not all abrahams natural seed , or the whole body of israel . how moses is said to judg ecclesiastically i understand not . deut. . , . &c. with . , , , . do not prove that moses avowed of every isralite that the word of covenant was in their heart . in some places doubtless the promise [ i will be your god ] includs also the writing of gods laws in our hearts , nor will i deny it included in the promise gen. . . but i do then not understand it of every israelite in that sense : for if so then i must make gods word fal , sith he doth not perform it to al. and for that which mr. c. seems to hold , that they had the promise dispensed unto them with execution of the covenant , it is in my apprehension to charg god with falshood . if any say i wrong mr. c. let him construe this passage otherwise if he can [ yea but god did not actually write such holy dispositions in them : suppose he did not : that is the execution of the covenant , as for the very ●erith or covenant itself , it is the promise whereof dispensed to them , and this they had both gen. . and deut. . . to circumcise the heart to love god is ▪ to imprint gracious dispositions ; to promise the same to them is a covenant to imprint it and so he did covenant with them and theirs ibid ] in which words he seems plainly to make god promise to imprint in some the gratious disposions he doth not actually imprint , which is to make god not keepe his word ; nor is the matter mended by asking , is not gods covenant now also sacramentally on our bodies too , and in many no further ? for i grant many are baptized , who are not regenerate , yet i do not believe gods covenant of grace is to any such , or as mr. c. speaks gods covenant to write his laws in their hearts is to any such . nor do i think that either ierem. · . or deut. . . god promiseth to all israelits to write holy dispositions in their hearts , but only to the elect ; nor to these in his covenant at mount sinai , though he made these promises to some of the natural seed of israel . neither rom. . from . to . nor gen. . , . compared with gen. . , . nor gen. . . , , . compared with gen. . , , , . and gal. . nor heb. ▪ , . . prove that either cain or ishmael or esau were ever in the covenant of evangelical grace , nor is there any text that proves that he new covenant is intailed to natural generations of the most godly men . mr. c. in answer to the tenth objection saith thus . but it 's false to say the commandement gave right to covenant interest ▪ since covenant right was first promised and declared to be the ground of that commanded service of the init●atory seal gen. , , , , . &c. thou shalt therefore keep my covenant . he doth not say you must be or are circumcised , and therefare i will be your god : but i will be a god to thee and thy seed , therefore thou and they shall be circumcised ; the nature of a seal supposeth a covenant to be sealed . to which i reply , i confess it were ridiculous for any to say the commandement gave right to covenant-interest , or covenant-right . for what is covenant-interest , but interest in the covenant , and covenant-right , but right from the covenant ? but setting aside mr c. his inept phrasifyings , ( which i count to be paedobaptists-gibberish ) it is not false , but manifest truth , that it is the command of god onely that gave title to persons to be circumcised , and is the rule to know who are to be circumcised and who not , as i have often proved and shewed to be in effect confessed by mr m. as for mr. c. his inference from [ thou therefore , gen , . . ] it is answered often before in the first part of this review , sect. . and elswhere , that neither is the reading certain [ thou therefore ] nor doth the inference arise meerly from the promise , v. . nor is the inference at all of a right to circumcision , but of a duty , nor is this duty urged from each circumcised persons interest in the covenant but gods making it with abraham . nor is it true , that the nature of a seal supposeth a covenant to be sealed , sith other things are to be sealed , as letters , books , stones , men , fountains , &c. besides covenants , abrahams circumcision , rom. . . was a seal not of a covenant of some things to be done , but of the righteousness of faith which he had yet being uncircumcised , & if it were true , yet is it as little to the purpose , sith there may be a covenant sealed to a person that hath no interest in the promise , as when ones name is used onely as a trustee for others . and for what is said , that the commandment required only a male of eight dayes old to be circumcised , ( which mr. c. seems to conceive false ) meaning not before the eighth day , is so plain by reading the chapter , that i should make question of his wit or his forehead that should deny it . and the reason thus exprest is as frivolous , the promise heing made indefinitely to the seed whether male or female , and not to the eighth day old seed , but to the seed albeit but a day old . for though the promise be to the child of one day old , yet the command is not to him , nor is he to be circumcised , and therefore the seal follows not the covenant , but the command even where the promise goes before . what he adds , else what had become of them if they had died then , in respect of the ordinary covenant means of their good , rom. . : methinks mr. c. might have as easily answered himself as he would do a papist pleading this very plea for the necessity of infants baptism to salvation , or about the case of famales , or still-born infants . surely he would say , god supplies that without means , which he bestowes on others by ordinary means , and so infants of a day old may speed well without circumcision . to what purpose rom. . . comes in here i know not : this and some other passages seem to be the inconsiderate speeches of a man dreaming . to the objection , with the jews , the church and state were the same , but not so now . mr. c. thus writes . answ. god never confounded church and civill state either then or now . who dare make god the author of confusion which is the god of order ? he then kept them severall , paling in the civill state with the judicials , with which the church as such dealt not , but as civil cases came under a church consideration . she had her ceremonials and morals to regulate her kings and princes , priests levits , and elders had their proper work , and word , onely in their own sphears . the elders of the assemblies knew and acted in their places ecclesiastically without interruption from civill officers , or intruding upon civil officers as such , as josh. . & . , , acts . luke . the matters of the king and of the lord were carefully bounded and sundred , chron. . . answ. according to the constitution of the jewish people by god , the church was not one body and the state another , but all the same persons were of the church , who were members of the common-wealth , he that had the right of a iew , had the right of a church-member , nor were any taken in or cast out of the one , but withall he was taken in or cast out of the other . nor hereby is god made the author of confusion , but good order was setled & kept in this way of coincidency of state civil and ecclesiastical . nor is it true that god kept the church and civill state severall , or paled in the civill state with judicials , by which it was divided from the church . in the church the priest dealt as well in judicials as in ceremonials , the priest and the levite as well as the iudge gave sentence in matters of blood and plea , as well as between stroak and stroak , deut. . , . eli , samuel , iehoiadah judged israel , managed state-affairs as wel as temple service . nor do i know any such iudicials , but that they did belong to the church or priests ( who were iudges ) as well as to the civill state , that is , the princes . as there were ceremonials and morals to regulate kings and princes , so there were also lawes to regulate the priests . but no where do we read of any court kept by the church , or officers of the church , that is , priests and levits , wherein to censure kings and princes for meer morall sins called now ( somewhat besides the scripture use of the word ) scandals ) though we find princes deposing priests . it is true , priests , levits and elders had their proper work and moved onely in their own sphears . and so had princes and souldiers , but not so as to make two distinct corporations in israel . if by elders of the assemblies which knew & acted ecclesiastically in their places , he mean any other than the priests , and by their ecelesiasticall knowing and acting , the taking cognizance of moral evils , and proceeding against them by ecclesiasticall censure in a court distinct from the civill , i must confess i find not either such assembly , or such proceedings in the texts brought by mr c. or any other . i grant there was a dististinction between the matters of the king and of the lord , chro. . . & that amaziah the chief priest was over the iudges whom iohoshaphat sent forth in all matters of the lord , and zebadiah the ruler of the house of iudah , for all the kings matters . but this doth not prove that these men did keep severall courts , but that in the same synedrium these persons were best fitted to direct , the one in one sort of matters , the other in the other ; as in a parliament , senate , or council of lords , bishops , lawyers , souldiers , though they sit and act together , yet one may be more specially for one business and another for the other . nor doth it appear that iehoshaphat assigned in the cities some iudges for one kind of causes , and others for others but because there was occasion to have recourse in many difficult cases to the synedrum at ierusalem , he instructs them whom they should have there for their help , according to the law , deut. , , , &c. but i leave the reader to mr seldens books de synedrijs etraeorum , to resolve him in this point . what mr c. gathereth out of the words of i. s. that he saith , that god made a covenant of grace in generall and so with the body of the jewes infants and all , serves not mr c , his turn , unless he meant his naturall seed in-generall , which that he did grant in respect of evangelicall grace , i do not believe ▪ what he saith touching baptism , that it sealeth the covenant indefinitely to all sorts , and that it sealeth an infants present , federall grace , and unto future grace : likewise unto grown ones it sealeth personall grace less principally , covenant-grace principally , is meer fancy without any scripture , which makes no such distinctions of federall grace and personall , of the sealing one grace principally , another less principally , of sealing an infants present federall grace , and unto future grace , of baptism , sealing the covenant indefinitly to all sorts , which the scripture makes the act of the person baptized only to testifie his own repentance and faith . i proceed to examine the ninth section of that chapter . sect. mr c. sets down this conclusion , that the covenant-interest , at least externall and ecclesiasticall of infants of inchurched believers is gospel as well as such covenant-interest of grown persons . sect . xliv . animadversions on the ninth section of the same chapter , in which the covenant-interest externall and ecclesiastical of infants of inchurched believers is pretended , not proved to be gospel , in which his allegations of deut. . , &c. gen. . . luke . deut. . , &c. ezek. . , &c. gen. . . . and other places are examined . answ : in my examen page . i said , they that say the covenant of grace belongs not onely to believers , but also to their naturall children , whether believing or not , these add to the gospel , and the apostle saith of such , gal. . , . let him be accursed . and page . it is no wrong to say it , that it is a new gospel to affirm that this is one of the promises of the covenant of grace , that god wil be the god of believers and of their seed ; that the seed of believers are taken into covenant with their parents , i cannot derive its pedigree higher than zuinglius . to this mr c. opposeth his seventh conclusion with ambiguity and seeming hesitancy . for what else can be the reason of those terms [ at least as well ] which are not like the expressions of a man that is well resolved what to hold ? but that we may rip up this conclusion , . he supposeth that right to outward ordinances , or more particularly to an initiall seal , is covenant-interest from the covenant of grace , which is a mistake , as i have often shewed . . that such externall covenant interest of grown persons is gospel without scripture , which mentions onely justification by faith and life by christ to be the gospel , not such a covenant interest ( as they call it ) which may be to reprobates as well as to elect persons . . he speaks to believers inchurched by such a covenant as the scripture mentions not . . he annexeth the covenant interest he speakes of to this church-covenant as well as to the covenant of grace without any warrant but his own conceit , nor shewes how far it is annexed to the one with or without the other , . he asserts the covenant interest at least externall and ecclesiasticall of infants of inchurched believers . . that this is gospel . the first place he brings for his conclusion is deut. , , , , , , compared with rom. . , , , and saith , the matter of the promise , scil : inward power of grace sheweth it was a gospel-promise like that heb. . , , . ans. this is enough to shew the impertinency of this text to prove the meer externall ecclesiasticall interest of infants of inchurched believers . for it contains that promise of inward grace , which mr. b. saith , belongs onely to the elect . friendly accom . pag. . saith he , now this was made to the seed or children of these church members , as ch . . , . here is not any evasion as is usuall in mentioning abrahams seed , &c. this people to whom this was made , being not so spiritual themselves . answ. i grant that the promise deut. . . of circumcising thine heart and the heart of thy seed , is meant of the seed of those then assembled , but not of all their seed , but onely such as were elect , nor at all times , but a speciall time , upon their return to god when they were in captivity , nor at all to their infant-seed but to their grown seed , as mr b. proves in the words and place above cited , friendly accom . page . and whereas mr. c. conceives the people to whom this promise was made , not so spiritual , he is mistaken . for if god promised to circumcise their heart , they must be spiritual . that it was not a bare tender , which i grant . . saith he , lest any doubt should arise how this should be ratified and made good , moses prophetically setteth out christ as dead and risen in wh●m this covenant was ratified , v. , . all ▪ which the apostle further explaineth , rom. . , , ▪ answ. i do not conceive that either moses , deut. . , , . useth the words there to shew how the promise , v. . . should be ratified , or that he prophetically setteth out christ as dead and risen , deut. . , , . or that the apostle , rom. . , , . so explains it . he that reads the chapter may perceive , that deut. . v , , , . are brought to this end , that moses might prevent the excuse which might be made for their disobedience by alleaging that gods lawes were at such a distance from them as that they could not come to them . and though it is true that the apostle appli●s those words to the word of faith , rom. . , , . yet it is manifest that it was not a prediction of christs resurrection , as there the words stand , . from deu. . . where the commandment mentioned v. . is said expresly to be [ gods commandment and statute which are written in this book of the law. ] . that it was that which was nigh to them that they might hear it and do it . v. which is meant of the law , not of the word of faith concerning christ dead and risen , which was not to be done by us , but to be believed . rightly saith beza , annot. ad rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hebr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 baddabar , quo vocabulo moses intelligit legem quam dominus voce sua promulgavit , audiente universo populo suo , ita ut nullam ignorantiam possit ●raetexere , eum ejus tabulas baberet , descriptas , tanquam adeo singuli ex re citare possent , & intus haberent quasi in cognitio●e & animo insculptam : sed quod moses dixit de lege , hoc totum paulus ad evangelium acommodat per allusionem . pisc : analys . alludit apostolus ad verba mosis , deut. . . diodati annot. on rom. . . [ speaketh on this wise ] s. paul makes use of this passage , though spoken in another sense . the like to which he doth in the same chapter : v. . alledging the words psalm . . . concerning the preaching the gospel in all the world , which is undeniably meant of the course of the heavens . nor is it of force to overthrow this exposition , to say , that the word deut. . . is said to be in their heart , for to be in their heart is there no more than to be understood by them though they were ●isobedient , and might be true of the law ●s wel as the gospel . no● is it any disparagement to the holy writings , to say that sometimes holy writers accommodate to their purpose words that have o●her meaning in the places where they stand . whence i infer that the words v. ● . [ he commandement which i command thee this day ] do not prove that thereby is meant the very gospel-covenant ratified in christ , but the commandment given in horeb deut. . . nor is there any shew of likelihood that the words deut. . , , , . should be meant of the promise v. . of circumcising the heart of their seed , for that was not to be done by them , but god. and though it be true that moses had that day propounded the commandments as a mutual covenant betwixt them and god , as wel as god and them the parents or rulers stipulating therein in behalf of themselves and chidren ( or rather in the behalfe of the whole nation in present being and unborn posterity ) and so in reference to them also a conditional covenant that day in the plains of moab , deut. . . , , , , , , , , and . , , , , , , , , . yet the covenant was on their part to keep the commandments of the law for their prosperity deut. . . not to believe in christ ( which few of them understood ) . and when it is said deut. . . that it was that god might establish them that day for a people to himself , and that he might be unto them a god , it is not meant that they should be all believers , and god to them a justifying and saving god in christ , mr. b's . words in his friendly accommodation , pag. . and for that which you urge [ ero deus tui & seminis ] i doubt you will not prove that it reacheth so far as you speak . it sufficeth that god will be to them a god of mercy and do for them all that is necessary to put them in statum salutis pro conditione parvulorum , and mr. c's own exposition , i will be a god to some in respect of external interest , shew that to be a god to some doth not necessarily infer they shall be regenerate and so the covenant of saving grace in christ be gathered thence . and therefore i deny that deut. . . , , , . compared wi●h rom. , , . do evidently or obscurely prove , that the covenant-interest ( external as he cals it ) of inchurched stipulating parents children is gospel , or that the apostles preached this doctrine , or that believers are to eye the covenant in such a latitude as to their children with them by faith , or that the essentials of the covenant of grace in the latitude of the extent thereof to covenant parents with their children held forth in the old testament was delivered and held forth as valid to the faith of the saints in the new and after christs incarnation . nor doth peter propound the word of true faith in such a latitude as with reference to their children , ( in mr. c's sence ) acts. . , . and though paul hold forth rom. . , . the abounding of christs grace ( to them that are christs ) in the gift of righteousness , yet that any such thing as external ecclesiastical covenant interest to the natural seed of believers is held forth rom. . , . is mr. c's , palpable dotage . and how acts. . , . rom. . , , , . cor. , . are mistaken is shewed in the first part of this review and in this third part . but mr. c. fa●ls to disputing thus , that which believers , as such , have , do , and ought to believe as a branch of the covenant of grace , that is gospel ; but this is of that in nature , ergo . the major needs no proof : the former text also clearing the same : the major de jure is evident : they ought to believe the whole covenant made with them , as is evident , faith must be as large as the object , the covenant is the word of faith . and so he proceedes in more words . whereunto i answer , i grant his major , but mr. c. seems not to heed his own syllogism . for he tels us the minor de jure is evident , they ought to believe and by which words he seems to have concieved , that this was the minor , that they ought to believe the wh●le covenant : whereas his minor to be proved was this [ the external , ecclesiastical interest of infants of inchurched believers is that which believers , as such , have , do and ought to believe as a branch of the covenant of grace ] . but mr. c. as a man weary of disputing fals to his dictating way again after his confused manner leaving his reader to aim at what he would prove , and how . that which he should prove is , that the external ecclesiastical interest of infants of inchurched believers is that which believers , as such , have , do and ought to believe as a branch of the covenant of grace : surely if they ought to believe it he should produce some promise or declaration that avowes it as a constant and certain thing . but instead thereof he fals to gen. . . and tels us , god in making a covenant in a church reference especially , as was that with abraham gen. . he taketh in their seed or children as joint covenanters but what he means by gods making a covenant in a church reference , or in which words he takes believers seed as joint covenanters with their parents , or in which words the external ecclesiastical interest of every believers natural child may be proved , he shews not , nor can shew , there being no mans seed : but abrahams there mentioned . he goes on thus ; hence the phrase of seed in their generations taking in parents generating and children begotten as those in and by whom churches , are like to be continued . answ. it is true it is said gen. . . to abraham [ thou shalt keep my covenant ; therefore thou and thy seed after thee in their generations ] and this covenant is v. . every man-child among you shal be circumcised . but that this phrase [ seed after abraham in their generations ] should infer that god taketh in believeng parents generating and children begotten even of the gentiles in the covenant of grace at least in respect of external ecclesiastical interest is yet to me a riddle , i know no more to be inferred thence but this , that not only abraham , but also the israelites his posterity were bound to circumcise their males in their generations . but we have more of this stuffe . whence ( saith he ) god , when to speak in reference to the church-seed as well as to the choise elect-seed of isaac's line in which the visible , and not meerly the invisible church was to be continued , he saith , he will establish his covenant with isaac , not with ishmael , ishmael was abrahams seed too , and therefore externally in the covenant , and therefore sealed ; but god knowing that ishmael would reject this , he warneth abraham of it a little before that it might not trouble him afterwards : it is not to be with him in his generations for that cause gen. . ▪ compared with gen. . , , , , . but with isaac in his generations ; god not opposing therein isaac to his church-seed , who by rejecting the covenant will and did love , he and his to be cast out . answ. mr. c. in this passage speaks so obscurely that it is hard to say what he drives at , and i may take up the saying , reed me a riddle what 's this ? he makes a difference between gods speech of ishmael and isaac , that god saith he will establish his covenant with isaac not wi●h ishmael , it was not to be with him in his generations , who was to be cast out : all which i grant true , and thence infer , that god never made his covenant with , to , or for ishmael , and yet he was to be circumcised , and therefore the initial seal ( as it is called ) was given to him to whom the covenant belonged not . but mr. c. using this blind index [ whence ] leaves us to ghess , what he drives at . [ whence ] importes it is from somewhat before that god said this of ishmael , but that before was that god takes in parents generating and children begotten . but me thinks it is from the contrary ( as the apostle conceived rom. . , , , . ) that god speaks this of ishmael , who was abrahams seed , and yet not taken into the covenant , who yet should be taken in , if yet mr. c's . principles were good , that the covenant was made to abraham and his seed in their generations . and how mr. c. reckons ishmaels as not abrahams church-seed i know not , nor do i understand how ishmaels posterity should be cut off from external right to the covenant he being a church member according to mr. c's dictates . mr. c. then tels us , that god saith in reference to our times he will be a god to the families throughout the earth , and pag. . he cites for this purpose the prophecy ierem. . . but there it is , the families of israel : but were it , the families throughout the earth , this proves not that it is gospel , that infants of inchurched believers have external ecclesiastical covenant-interest . if it did , it may as well infer infants of inchurched believers , yea servants ( who are part of the families of the earth ) to have the same interest , yea all in the world , if we must understand it without limitation , and if with limitation then it is most rightly expounded as the apostle doth gal. . . the promise of blessing all nations , of believers v. . and so all the families of the earth ; to whom god will be god shall be only believers of all the families of the earth gentile believers as mr. c. truly saith , without infants . as ●or what mr. c. observes , that god said to abrahaham to be a god to him and his seed in their generations not in their regeneration , it is frivolous . for none of the gentiles seed are abrahams seed but by regeneration , and so to be abrahams seed in their generations applied to abrahams spiritual or church-seed among the gentiles is all one as to be abrahams seed by regeneration . and for the prophecy of being a god to all the families of the earth , it is meant not of every member of the family , but the meaning is that god would not restrain his gospel and church to the jews , but take in any of the families of the earth , who would embrace it , as when it is said mark. . . preach the gospel to every creature , ( that is ) to any gentile as wel as jews , yet infants not meant . this is proved from the event because parents did believe when children did hate them for it mat. . , . and the husband was often a believ●r the wife an infidel . but saith mr c. it was usually otherwise , and god speaks of things as they usually prove : extraordinary occurrences cross not such a rule . to which i say , if the prophecy were as mr. c. would , that it should be gospel that god will be a god of children with parents , because he will be god of all the families of the earth , than it must be true of the children of all and every of the families of the earth which recieve the gospel . nor are prophecies to be expounded at , if they foretold onely contingents what may be , and what may not be , but what shall certainly be ▪ nor can ther be a rule , much less gospel , made of that which is uncertain , somtimes it is somtimes it is not , a rule being , as they say in logick , a determinate & known thing ▪ nor is it true that the occurrent of the families being divided in religion was extraordinary . for our lord christ speaks of it rather as ordinary & commonly to be expected matth. . , . but mr. c. would have i● a rule from acts. . . acts. . luke . . to this may be answered that three instances mak not up an induction of particulars whence a rule may be made . . the first instance is not meant of infants , for none are th●re said to be saved but those that heard the words which peter spake . the next includes not infants . for the very next v . shews that by the house were meant those to whom the word of the lord was spoken . nor is there any intimation of an infant meant luke . . and it is certain that none of the texts speaks of that which they are produced for , a bare external interest : for they expresly speak of salvation , and therefore if they prove it to be a rule that parents and children are joint covenanters , or are taken in together they will prove they are saved together , which mr. c. i suppose will not assert . but some other answers are in my examen which i must vindicate with these . i had said examen part . there is a necessity to make 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a restrinctive particle and to expound this house luke . . of zach●us his family only in reference to his person . against this mr. c. speaks thus . nor by salvation come to his house , is meant the comming of salvation to himselfe : as if he and his house were all one : nor do i know any parallel scripture speaking in such language , that when the scope and intent is to mention the comming of such or such a mercy to such a person , that phrase is used to denote the same ; that such or such a mercy is come to his house . what need such a circumlocution ? if so intended , the word might more plainly have been set down , this day is salvation come to this publican , this person , this man or the like , in as much as he also is become a son of abraham . and what though the greek word be used in acts . . and . . for secundum according as , yet not for quatenus , or in quantum : forasmuch as the text and sense thereof are cleare , that it noteth proportion of such administration , not meerly the cause or reason thereof . or if it be supposed to imply the cause or reason thereof its evident it noteth the proportion also . they gave to every one as , or according as they needed scil : proportionably to their need : it being regular as to give to the needy , so to give them according to the measure of their present necessity . but how that sense will here be fitly applicable i see not , to say that salvation is come to his house or to him according as he is a believer , but rather as our translators render it , it 's to be taken as a reason of the former , salvation is come to this house , forasmuch as he is a son of abraham . answ. by restraining the salvation come to zacheus his house to his person , i do not make zacheus and his house all one ; but salvation is come to his house that is , to this place , inasmuch , or in that zacheus is also become a son of abraham . but whereas mr. c. thinks no scripture using such language , i will use grotius his words shewing the contrary even in luke , because they are full to answer this passage of mr. c. annot. in luc. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , synecdoche . domus enim pro patre familias dicitur : ita supra . . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . domum autem ideo nominâsse videtur christus , ut ostendat rel●tam hospitii gratiam . dixerat enim zachaeo christus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . quare quae ad hunc locum afferri solent de beneficiis dei in familiam pii patris familias , quanquam vera sunt rectè accepta , tamen huc pertinere non arbitror . as for what he saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not signifie quatenùs , he may know that scapula puts quatenùs for the first signification of it . what i said , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was not only a causal particle , but also a restrictive is not denied by mr. c. but he thinks it is not good sense to say , according as he is a believer , but rather it is to be taken as a reason of the former . i confess it would not be good sense to say [ according , that is after the proportion that he is a believer ] but thus it is good sense to make it to note the reason with restriction , and so our translators do when they render it [ for so much . ] and this is confirmed in that , if it be expounded that salvation did come to his house , that is his wife , children , servants for this only reason , or cause , because he was a son of abraham , in that he was a believer , it may be gathered thence that a mans whole house , or posterity , may be saved barely by his believing : to this mr. c. saith , no : but as acts . . upon his believing they shall come in the gospel-way , in the covenant road , and ordinary means of salvation . but that this is a false exposition both places shew . that luke . . must needs be meant otherwise than of the means of salvation with which zach●us might not have been saved . for besides that to his being a son of abraham ( not a son of abrahams covenant as mr. c. speaks ( though that be true also ) but a follower of abrahams faith ) salvation is certainly annexed ; nor had it been so joyous if he had not meant salvation it self : it is put out of all doubt that he means salvation it self by verse . where he gives this reason why he said salvation was come to him , though some murmured at his going in to him ; for ( saith he ) the son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost ; therefore he had both sought , and did save zachaeus who was lost . and for the other place it is as frivolous to expound acts . . of the means of salvation . for , . pauls answer is of that of which the jaylour asked him , else he had deluded him by his answer ; but the question was not , what may i do to be put in the road , ordinary means of salvation , the gospel way ? but , what may i do to escape the wrath due to me ? . that salvation is meant which was consequent on his believing , but the ordinary means of salvation was not consequent , but antecedent , that which followed on his believing in christ was the certainty of salvation . yea to interpret thus , believe in the lord jesus , and thou shalt be saved , that is thou shalt hear the word , be baptized , &c. is so frigid and sapless and interpretation as no considerate man , sure no interpreter besides mr. c. that i know , did ever give a sense of it . but mr. c. tells me : nor is this sense of salvation for covenant means of salvation , or the covenant and promise it self unusuall in scripture . the salvation which christ and his apostles preached , and those heb. . . neglected , was not barely salvation it self , but the promises holding the same forth , this was that mercy , and riches , and salvation also which came to the gentiles , as rejected by the jewes , rom. . , , , , verses compared . so esay , , , , gods salvation is his promise or covenant on which their salvation did depend , calvin in locum . sam. . . david speaking of his house or posterity , which albeit it were not so orient then , yet god had made a covenant with him , scil . in reference to his house , ordered in all things and sure ; and this , scil . this covenant with me and my house , is all my salvation and all my desire , albeit he maketh my house not to grow or flourish in such a sort : this covenant then was his salvation objectivè , causaliter , or instrumentaliter . answ. if this sense of salvation for covenant means of salvation , or the covenant and promise it self were usuall in scripture , yet it could not be the sense , luke . . or acts . . whether we understand it of the outward means of salvation , the word and sacraments , or of the promise of salvation : but must be understood of saving by justification , as tit. . , , . for neither is the outward means of salvation , nor the promise of salvation consequent upon being a son of abraham , and believing as salvation is in those places . . yet in none of the places alleged by mr c. is salvation put for being in the gospel way the ordinary means of salvation competent to infants . and for the covenant or promise of salvation it self , he dares not avoch it to be gospel , that all the infants of inchurched believers have interest in it , and therefore if salvation luke . . were put for the covenant or promise of salvation , yet it would not prove that it belongs to every son of abrahams whole house , but mr c. must limit it to the elect , as i do . yet let us consider his texts , that it may appear with how little heed he brings texts , as if he never examined their pertinency , but heaped them together whether to the purpose or not . they are said to neglect salvation , heb. . . ergo , salvation is taken for the outward means of salvation competent to infants or the covenant of salvation . nay rather salvation is taken for salvation as it was preached and offered , not for the means of salvation competent to infants , nor for the promise of salvation , but for salvation it self neglected in that they did not take hold of it by believing and obeying the doctrine of the gospel . acts . , salvation is said to be sent to the gentiles , and that they would not hear it . but salvation there is the doctrine of salvation , not competent to infants who could not hear it . rom. . , , , , , is not meant either of the bare outward means of salvation , or the covenant of salvation only , much less the outward means competent to infants , es●y . , , the term salvation is not taken for the bare outward means of salvation competent to infants of inchurched believers . if salvation sam. . , did note outward means of salvation , because it is said , this covenant is all my salvation , desire should note outward means of desire , because it is said , this covenant is all my desire . i grant the convenant is termed his salvation causaliter , or instrumentaliter , and his desire objestivè . the covenant everlasting in all things ordered and sure , was made with david in reference to his house , not in respect of outward covenant interest to the infants of his house ( it 's a wonder to me that such a man as mr c. should ●o dote , especially after the publishing of mr cottons book of the covenant on that text ) but in respect of the great promise of raising christ out of his loins , acts . . or as it is luke . . raising up a horn of salvation for his people in the house of his servant david , and this ( that is the accomplishment of this promise ) was all his salvation and all his desire , although he did not make his house to grow in secular greatness . i deny not but parents faith may be an occasionall means to stave off destruction from , and to further the salvation of their children , as heb. . . , , , , jonah , & . but this i deny , that barely in this respect , in that the parent is such , the infant of an inchurched believer , whether professing or reall , is a visible member of the christian gentile church , and capable thereby of baptism , or that this is any part of the gospel . but mr c. tells us , shall it then be yielded that such benefit should come as was before spoken of to adult servants of the house , &c. and is here no reference to the poore babes by reason of their tender age ? hath the mercfull god revealed no ordinary help for them ? answer . it is yeilded that benefit came to the servant of the jaylors house , acts . . but not the benefit there mentioned barely by the jaylors faith without their own . though we conceive infants not meant acts . . because the texts , v. , , lead us to understand by [ the house ] the persons who heard the word , believed and rejoyced , yet we exclude not infants from salvation , nor do we deny to the elect the ordinary help of the spirit regenerating them , and christs mediation for them ▪ if they die in infancy , although they have not the ordinary outward means of the word and sacraments . and therefore he might have spared his pathetick interrogation sitter for an orator than a disputant , and for a papist than a protestant . nor need we exclude them from salvation for want of actuall faith because of the words mark . ▪ heb. . . for either those places may be understood of the act of faith in those to whom the word is preached , or else if it be understood of all infants , they may have faith in seed and act by immediate operation of the spirit , and yet they not to be baptized , because it is undiscerned by the minister of baptism . the jaylor might have encouragement to hope for his infants salvation , though they were not meant in those words , acts . . if the election of god be not any thing visibly to comfort him concerning his children , no more is the covenant of salvation , which is comensurtae with election , rom . . nor is discernable any more than election , both are alike discerned by the fruits of repenting and believing . as for baptism , it could not assure salvation , nor the want of it deba● from it . if it be not said , that the jaylors house believed before they were baptized , yet it is said in the next verse , and in the verse before , that paul spake the word to all that were in his house . as for that he saith , it follows not that what is applicable to the adult persons in the house , scil . that joy of faith must exclude children from baptism whereof they were capable , no more than when it is said , deut. . . that they and their housholds were to eat before the lord , and to rejoyce in all they put their hands to , &c. because therefore their little children could not so actually express joy in what they put their hands unto , therefore they were none of the houshould which did eat before the lord ▪ anabaptists would not like this arguing , which urge the joynt communion of the jewish children in all sorts of church-ordinances . i answer , ●f by little children be meant infants of a day or two , or some months old ( at which age they baptize infants ) i affirm that they are not mean● by the housholds , deut. . . and that for the reason given , because they could not 〈◊〉 before the lord , and rejoyce in all that they put their hands unto . nor do i know any whom he calls anabaptists , but would like of this arguing : the jewish housholds were to eat before the lord , and rejoyce in all that they put their hand to ; therefore little children of a day or two , or some months old , are not any part of the housholds to whom that precept is given , or of whom that which is there said , 〈◊〉 there meant . for though we all grant that ●nfants were circumcised , and in my examnen , page . i say the males that could eat , though not come to years of discretion fit to receive the lords supper , were to eat the passover , yet i know none of the so called anabaptists which urge the joynt communion of the iewish children ( infants of a few dayes or months old ) in all sorts of church-ordinances . what mr c. saith further , suppose a mans houshold , men , women and children , all diseased and cured at the bath , and afterwards the houshold expresseth their joy for it by leaping & dancing for joy ; and it be said such a man , he and all his were washed at such a bath , and he & his whole houshold afterwards even danced for joy : none will say , that because little ones could not so leap for joy , and are excluded from the notion of the [ whole houshold ] in this later , therefore they were not in the account of [ all his ] in the former , if it were granted him , yet the arguing from acts . where it is said , that p●ul spake the word of the lord to all that were of the jaylors house : and v. , he rejoyced believing in god with all his house , with the constant narration of the evangelist in the acts of the apostles , mentioning baptizing of none but believers , do evidently shew , that by [ all his , v. ] were meant onely those that heard the word and believed . it is true more or fewer of this or that sort of persons or things born or unborn are meant by the terms [ house or houshold ] as the matters and circumstances of the speech lead to , nor need i say that gen . . under the term house are not meant little children , because of the words gen. . , , , . nor need i deny that infants are often intended by the term house and houshold , an gen. , , &c. or that they are chiefly meant thereby , as sam. . , &c. or that they are intended when some parts of the family are expresly instanced in , and children not withall mentioned , as gen. . . or that children are ordinary instruments to build or hold up a house in naturall , civill , religious and church-respects too , as exod. ▪ . or that the covenant-expressions of seed and seed in their generations , do more directly reach them as such , than either wives or servants , as such , as gen. . , &c. yet all this doth neither take away the force of the reasons before given why under [ all his , acts . . ] infants are not meant , much less prove that which mr c. should prove ( which he must do if he will prove his covenant-interest ecclesiastical of believers seed thence ) that in the iaylors house were infants , and they baptized . ezek. . , , , , , , , . hath been often shewed to be impertinently alledged being meant of the israelites when brought out of egypt and then god said [ live ] to them when they had been ready to perish in canaan first , and then in egypt by oppression and after brought them to mount sinai and entered into the covenant of the law , which mr. c. ●ndeavoring to apply to an ecclesiastical external priviledge of gentile believers infants in the time of the gospel doth toto coelo errare . it is neither said there to jerusal●m then live , nor micah . . . that the same mercy and truth engaged to abraham and jacob god did both swear to other jew fathers of families , or that there is mention of pardon of sins externally made over to them or pleaded there for that end v. , and though i deny not that in respect of the covenant made with iacob at bethel gen. . , , , , , , . god is said there to speake with israel in hoseah his dayes hos. . . yet i deny there is a word that saith that external church interest of inchurched gentile believers infants is gospel . nor is there any thing sam. . , ▪ about external covenant-church-interest , but of the peculiar promise made to david of the continuing the kingdome to his posterity , which having its full accomplishment in christ acts. . . was indeed in that respect the covenant of grace , and was so believed both by david and all believers before christ , that it should be done , and now by all believers that it is done . but this promise was made of davids house only not of every particular believers , and therefore it is impertinently brought to prove that it is gospel that to every believers house god hath made such a covenant , or that the children of every believer have an external covenant interest with the parent . as for the instances of eve and lamech concerning seth and noah gen. . . and . . ther 's no mention of any covenant , nor that these were covenant babes , much less of a covenant belonging to all believing parents with their children , but an acknowledgment in the former that god had appointed eve another seed insteed of abel whom cain slew in respect of the preisthood say some , others in respect of propogating mankind , others because of christ to come from him : in the other a prophesy of noah that he should comfort them concerning their worke and toil of their hands , because of the ground which the lord had cursed , which is concieved by some as meant of the invention of plowing ▪ vide christoph. cartwright in locum : the new annot. follow that sense . but were it true eve had respect in that speech gen. . . to the promise gen. . . and that she believed god would continue the church in seth's posterity , and that thence came the distinctions of the sons of god and daughters of men gen. . , . and lamech believed that noah should be a root , as it were to the church albeit that corrupt world should be destroyed : yet all this is note●ing to the point mr. c. should prove , that it is gospel that the children of every inchurched gentile-believer have an externall covenant church-interest , there being in those texts not a word of such an externall covenant church-interest , nor of any generall promise to them , but onely a mention of speeches which had their rise from particular revelations about those persons which are there mentioned , psalm . . , , , there 's not a word of the externall federall church state of inchurched gentile church-believers . but if the psalm were made towards the later end of the captivity of babylon , and were the prayer of the iews ▪ as v. , , makes it probable , then it seems to be meant , as the new annotations on psa. . , thus ▪ the children of thy servants shal continue ] this is the literal ( as i may call it ) immortality proposed in the law to them that fear of god , their surviving in their posterity : if of the saints prophecying of the calling of the gentiles , or , as some would , of the reingraffing of the iewes , that paraphrase of junius may be right : ● . vera & germana ecclesiae tuae membra conservabuntur in aeternum virtute tua & tibi curae futura sunt . take i● of whomsoever the words may be verified , it mentions no such thing as externall federall church-interest , but continuance and establishment before god , that is , as ainsworth notes , as much as so long as god doth dure , meaning for ever . for assurance whereof they had a word of faith , to wit , some revelation of god , though no such covenant as mr c. imagines , int●tuling children of inchurched gentile-believers to externall church-interest . mr c. urgeth a second argument to prove the federall interest of believers infants to be gospel because from the beginning , and he begins with gen. . . to prove that it was held as gospel , that the species of the infants of believers in church-estate were taken into the verge of the covenant of grace ; as if infants of believers were a species , and not individuals , or that it were denied that some infants were taken into the verge of the covenant of grace . and then he dictates without proof , that adam and eve were eyed by god as a seminall visible church ; whereas in that promise they were eyed either as the root of mankind ; or if as a church , more likely as the seminall invisible , than as the visible church . he interprets the seed of the woman , not onely of the principall seed christ , in , and by whom it was ratified and fulfilled , but her church-seed also whom the same promise did comprehend . but i would know of mr c. whether cain were not her church-seed , who by mr c. his dictates was the infant of inchurched believers . for adam and eve were eyed , saith mr c. as a seminall visible church ? if so , then it is true of cain , that he should bruize the serpens head as eves church-seed : which how he did , unless being of the wicked one , and slaying his brother , as is said of him , john . . be bruising the serpents head , i understand not . many interpreters comprehend cain under the serpents seed ; but none i have met with , comprehend him , or any reprobate , under the womans seed mystically understood . there are interpreters that understand the promise , gen. . . as made to mankind in respect of the naturall serpent , and the best of christs destroying the works of the divel , as john speaks , epist. . . and others of the elect overcoming satan , and treading him under their feet , rom. . . but none do i find who understand it of infants of believers externall covenant church-interest . believers , it is true , are called abrahams seed , but no where true believers , as such , are called eves church-seed , nor doth eve by faith from thence thus interpret the scope of the promise , gen. . , . and if infants be meant by the womans seed , gen. . . in a spirituall sense of overcoming the divel , yet no infants but elect can be meant thereby , sith no other overcome the divell . so that it is so far from being true , that this gospel of infants of believers externall covenant church-interest , was held in the beginning of the world , gen. . . that i rather conceive that it is no elder than mr c. and am sure is a meer figment . but there is more of this rubbish to be removed . he tells us , the same doctrine is implicitly held forth , gen. in the opposition of the servile condition of canaan , v. , . to the future church state of japhet , v. . the one accursed parent and child to servitude , so that chams babes as soon as born , were to be slaves : but japhet parent & child , are prophetically voted to church-estate in sems tents , so that inchurched japhets babes are actually within sems tents so soon as born . as god would accurse collective canaan , noah prophesieth that god would enlarge , or cause collective japhet to turn into the tents of sem ; which interpreters expound of the joyning of the gentiles unto the visible church . now visible church-estate supposeth visible covenant-estate , as is evident . answ. if mr. c. may be allowed to make gospel of doctrine so implicitely held forth as his new gospel is here ; i see not why we should so much blame , as we do , popes for making new articles of faith out of places clearer for their purpose , than this is for mr. c's . the servil condition of canaan is refered generally by interpreters to the bondage they were in when joshua subdued them , and the gibeonites were made slaves : which though it did extend to their children , yet was not such , but that even they were proselytes many of them to israel , as araunah the jebusite , and after the woman of canaan is commended for her fa●●h , matth. . . and therefore not excluded from the visible church . and for the blessing of japhet , whether we read it , god shall enlarge japhet , as some , or perswade japhet , as others , i see not how it is well cleared , that the accomplishment of it is in the calling of the gentiles descended from ja●het , as the greeks , and others into the visible church , because it is said that canaan should be servant to japhet , whereas the tyrians , and sidonians , and carthaginians , and others descended of canaan were in the visible church as well , if not as soon , as many of the posterity of japhet , as is apparent by the histories of the church mentioning bishops and synods held among them , and famous writers . and therefore for my part i encline to think it a prophecy of the civil condition rather than ecclesiastical , whether it were fulfilled in alexander the great , and the greek kings of asia after him subduing tyre and sidon , and possessing palaestina , of which judaea was a part , or of the romans subduing carthage and poss●ssi●g judaea : but ●e it taken as a prophecy of the ecclesiastick state of these people , with what argument will mr. c. prove , that the dwelling in the tents of sem , is refered rather to the visible , than the invisible church ? they who will have it accomplished when the gentiles were fellow-heirs of the same body , and partakers of gods promise in christ by the gospel , ephes. ▪ . or when the gentiles were grafted in the stead of the jewes rom. . . have more reason to understand it only of true believers converted by the gospel , and so of the invisible church , than to understand it of the visible church as visible , as i have shewed in the first part of this review : yet were it meant of the visible church , there is no argument to prove it meant of the babes of japhet as soon as they are born . for what though it be that canaan , and sem , and japhet ●e all collectively taken , yet mr. c. himself , pag. . hath taught us , that speeches of the whole body of the jewes , collectively taken , are true , in respect of the choice or refuse part ; and so may , or rather must be the speeches here necessarily understood , canaan collective neither comprehending every canaanite in their greatest servitude , nor collective sem , or japhet , comprehending every israelite or descendent from japhet , but a notable part . and if those of japhet that dwelt in the tents of sem , that is according to the exposition of mr. c. were of the visible church , were brought in by perswasion , and this perswasion was by the preaching of the gospel according to the opinion of many interpreters , the argument is forcible to the contrary , that babes are not here meant among the inhabitants in the tents of sem ecclesiastically expounded , but only such as could hear and understand , and were perswaded by the gospel to joyn themselves to the visible church of christ. after this mr. c. dictates out of gal. . , . gen. . . that even as ishmael and hi● were cast out of abrahams family , and the legal jerusalem and her children even the body of the jewes adult and infant were dis-churched , so ecclesiastical isaac , abrahams church-seed with their children should be instated in the visible politi●al gospel-church . but the apostle doth not speak of ●asting out of the visible church as such , but out of the inheritance of sons , that is justification and salvation , and jerusalem that now is and her children is not j●ws as jewes or the body of iewes or adult and infants as mr. c. speaks : for then many myriads of jewes believing should be cast out : but ierusalem that now is , notes the legal covenant , and her children not infants born at the city ierusalem , bu● so many whether of jews or gentiles , as sought righteousness by the law , and not by christ , as hagar signifies the legal covenant , & her son ishmael such as were born of the flesh , that is , trusted in the flesh , as the apostle speaks , phil . . that is , in their legal righteousness , and carnal privileges . and on the other side , sarah and ierusalem above , signifie the gospel-covenant , vers . , . which begets children by promise , that is , ●●cording to the doctrine of fai●h in christ typified by isaac , and these that believe are born after the spirit , and do inherit life , righteousness , salvation . there 's not a word of abrahams church-seed there , or any where else in mr. c. his sense ; and [ ecclesiastick isaac ] is a new notion , and a meer figment of mr. c. in his sense ; and [ the casting out ] is meant of the invisible church of the saved , such as do rej●ct christ , and adhere to the law ; and the taking in is meant of the taking into the invisible church of the justified and saved , them that believe in christ , or a●e united to him , and not of an in-churching of meer visible professors , paren●s , and children into the visible church by an outward ri●e . the three texts next alleged by mr. c. are all mis●alleged to prove an external covenant church interest of the infants of in-churched-believers , to wit , esay . . the impertinency of which to this end , is shewed in the second part of this review sect. . the impertinency of isa. . and ezek . . in this part of the review before mr. c. proceeds to a third argument . in answer to which i deny , . the major , or sequele , that [ if infants and little ones of visibly believing parents in their church estate , before they can make any personall confession or profession of faith in the covenant , yet then are abrahams church-seed , then is it gospel that the promises belong to them . ] nor is it in substance or circumstance the apostles , gal. . . to abraham and his seed are the promises made . for though it is granted , that it is gospel that to abraham and his seed the promises are made , yet it is utterly false that the●e is meant a seed of abraham , who are neither elect nor true believers , but onely the naturall children of gentile inchurched believers , yea of gentile visible inchurched professors of faith , whom mr c. in a new language of his own without scripture , calls abrahams church-seed ; yea , the text is so manifestly against it , that i wonder mr c. could imagine any reader would receive his dictates about this text. for the apostle expresly limits the promises to christ as the seed of abraham , and whether christ be understood personally or mystically , as beza and others , yet by the seed are not meant the fictitious church-seed of abraham , to wit , the naturall children even of infants o● visible inchurched gentile-believers , or visible professors of faith ▪ but true believers , or elect persons , who alone are members of christ mysticall . and the promises are of the spirit through faith , v. . the inheritance , v. . life and righteousness , v. , , which are made to none but true believers , or elect persons . to which i add that externall covenant-interest ( if there were such ) is never in scripture termed the gospel , no not in those who rightly have it , as true believers , but christs dying for our sins , and justification by faith in him . . i also deny the minor [ that the infants and little ones of visibly believing parents in church-estate before they can make any personal confession or profession of faith in the covenant , yet then are abrahams church-seed ] mr. c. takes upon him to prove the minor ; . in those of abrahams loins in the elect seed . i should think ( saith he ) it should not be questioned , but yet it hath by some ; that infants while infants and till believers are not in the covenant &c. and by such other speeches of our adversaries in this point , the covenant-right not only of the individual infants of believers , but the covenant estates of that species and sort of persons is wholly denyed , and so since it 's evident and acknowledged that some are elected of that sort , yet it 's denied that they have part in the word of gods covenants , so that if they die in infancy , as many of the choise seed of abraham and isaac and jacob did &c. yet that ordinary means of saving efficacy in all the saved elect is denied , contrary to that principle rom ▪ . . but more hereof anon : but rom. , , , , . is so clear for it i wonder any deny it . isaac and jacob are made precedential instances of interest not only of election , but of gods calling unto the fellowship of his free covenant without respect either to their desire or indeavour of it personally v. . answ. there are sundry reasons which make me conceive that in this and many other passages in this argument mr. c. aimed at my self . mr. robert baillee minister of glasgow in scotland had in the . part of his diswasive intituled anabaptism ch . . pag. . charged me with spoiling all infants of all interest in the covenant of grace , and denying all right to the new covenant to iewish infants till in their ripe years they became actuall believers . from which false criminations i have vindicated my self in the addition to my apology printed at london . mr. c. here tels of some who speak as if they held that infants while infants , and till believers are not in the covenant , that wholly deny the covenant estate of that sort of persons , though they acknowledg some of them are elected of that sort , yet it 's denied they have part in the word of gods covenant , and if they die in infancy that ordinary means of saving efficacy in all the saved elect is denied them . i have reason to conceive that these are calumnies of others , sure i am if theyrae meant of my self they are calumnies , and so shewed in my books before cited and in other of my writings . from which that i may stand free i further express my self distinctly thus . . that by [ in the covenant of grace ] i mean the promise of righteousness and external life by christ jesus . . that i mean by [ being in the covenant of grace or belonging to it ] the having this promise made to them by god whether gen. . . or gen. . . according to the speech of the apostle tit. . . that god promiseth eternal life 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before the times of the ages , that is afore any age of man was past ▪ . that all the elect of god whether children of believers or unbelievers dying in infancy , or at the riper age are in this covenant of grace , that is , god hath promised eternal life to them by christ , they are given to christ to save , are children of the promise rom. . . . that all these are abrahams seed meant in the promise gen. . . though not actual believers . . that all these have christs me●●●s and the spirits inbeing in them afore they dye as ordinary means of salvation . . that none but these elect persons have the said covenant of grace or promise of righteousness and life by ch●ist made to them . . that no where visible prof●ssers of faith is in the covenant of grace . . that the natural child of a believer , no not the naturall child of abraham the father of believers was or is in the covenant of grace , as their child , or barely by vertue of their faith , but onely the elect of them by vertue of their election by god. . that these elect persons , though elected , and having the promise made to them , yet have not the things promised ( if of years of understanding ) till they do believe , they are not justified till then , and so are not actuall partakers of the covenant of grace , or not actually therein . . that no where in scripture is the naturall child of a gentile-believer , or a visible professor of christian faith , termed abrahams seed , and the term of abrahams church-seed , applied to such is a novel expression , not grounded on scripture . . that the formall , proper , and adequate reason why any was to be circumcised , was , not his being in the covenant made with abraham , nor is the reason why any should be baptized , bare●ly his interest in the covenant of grace , but the command of god , in the one , appointing males of eight dayes old of abraahms house , and proselytes thereto to be circumcised ; in the other , discip●es by their own profession of fai●h in ch●ist to be baptized . . that the use of the terms , being in the outward covenant , externall covenant-interest of infants , and such like are mista●es upon the im●gined connexion between the covenant of grace and the initiall seal , as hey call it . now to mr c. his proof . his proof is from rom. . , ● , , , , . that elect infants were abrahams seed in covenant , which i deny not , but say that rom. . . proves not only , that all the elect seed be included in the promise , gen. . . but also that the apostle expresly affirms , that onely the elect are the children of the promise understood spiritually , and they only abrahams seed ▪ acta synod . dordrac judi● . profess . belgic ▪ de . art. pag. . haec propositio [ solis electis hoe promissiones sunt factae ] ex professo probatur à paulo , rom. . . . ames . coron . art. . c. . seminis in●ulcatio solos electos & efficaciter vocatos notari docet apostolo sic hunc locum interpretante , rom. . gal. . . & . . , mr. rutherford exercit. apolog. c. . num . . soli electi dicuntur in scripturis faederati , filii & hoeredes promssionis , rom. . mr norton , mr c. his colleague , commended by mr. co●ton with him , respons . ad apollon . c. . pag. . objectum faederis gratiae sunt soli electi . dr. twiss animadv . in corvin . pag. . negamus deum pacisci faedus gratiae cum omnibus & singulis : dicimus h●c fieri solum cum electis . more may be seen to this purpose in my examen ▪ part . sect. , in this part of the review , sect. . and almost in every pr●t●stant wr●●er of note wh● opposeth the remonstrants of belgia , and other patrons of universall grace , freewill , and falling away from grace . but what mr c. saith and i grant , proves not that infants and little ones of visibly believing parents in church estate , before the infants can make any personal confession or profession of faith in the eovenant , are abrahams church seed to whom the promise , gen. . . belongs , but the con●rary : nor is it he●eby proved , that such infants are covenanters ingaged , or as ifants of abraham and isaac , children of the promise , as if 〈◊〉 formalis ratio of their childrens being children of the promise , w●re abrahams and isaacs believing and inchurching , as mr. c. seems to conceive , it being contrary to the express determination of the apostle , rom . . which excludes ishmael and esau from being children of the promise . nor is it true , that the change of abrahams name , gen. . , , , , &c. compared proves that the children of believers inchurched are abrahams seed , but onely th●t believers of all nations are such , rom. . . mr c. glanceth at a passage in my examen , page . wherein i say , that the apostle , rom. . makes circumcision , a seal of the righteousness of faith , but not to all , or only circumcised persons , but to all believers whether jews or gentiles ; so that according to the apstles doctrine , circumcision in as much as it sealed to abraham the righteousness of faith , which he had yet being uncircumcised , so that it is so far from being true that persons have the promise , therefore they must have the seal in their persons ; that it follows , persons have the promise , therfore they have the seal in abraham , ●hough they never are nor may be sealed in their own persons . to this mr. c. saith , the apostles discourse cleareth it to be otherwise , his scope being not to infringe any gospel-right to the gospel-se●l , but to take off any reasoning in point of justification from any work of the law considered apart from christ : as for the sealing of abrahams believing children the gentiles in abrah●ms sealing , if that were intended , as much might have been affirm●d of the b●lieving children of abraham , as they such , and so the circumcising of such iewes at least had been more than were needed ●o far forth . i reply , i grant the scope to be ●o prove iustification by faith ; but i say ▪ in respect of the present point the words prove no more , but that abrahams personall ci●cumcision was to him and all that belive as he did , whether jewes or gentiles , the seal of the righ●eousness of faith. and i do acknowledge , that if that were all the use of ci●cumcision , there was no simple necessity of any iew believer to be circumcised in their own persons , yet god might think good ex abundanti more ab●ndantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his councell , as the words are , heb. . and therefore would have them also circumcised in th●ir own persons to that end . but however there wer● other ends of circumcision , as ●he prefiguring of christ to come , the distinguishing the israelites from o●her people , &c. and therefore notwithstan●ing abrahams circumcision sealed to jew-believers the righteousness of fai●h , yet it was not needless that they should themselves be circumcised in their own persons for the ends to which god appointed it . and the command being express for their circumcision , they could plead no exemption from their personall circumcision upon that pretence that quatenu● believers they were circumcised in the circumcision of t●eir father abraham while the command stood in force , no not though all the ends had ceased , as that christ were come , all other nations were circumcised as well as they , &c. i say , had these ends and all other ceased , yet without gods releasing of the command , they were to be circumcised . how little that act of christ , luke● ● ▪ ● , , . with mark . . makes for mr c. his purpose , is shewed in the second part of the review before , and so likewise how impertinently esay● . . & , . are alleged , is shewed before in this part of the review . i neither grant that inchurched gentile visible believers are any other where called abrahams spirituall seed : nor do i think anabaptists wil grant , that if they were , then are their children also . but , saith he , the parents being not meerly abstractively considered the covenant-seed , gen. . . ●ut as in reference to their childen with them . for the seed of abraham to whom the covenant gen. . . is made , is the seed in their ge●erations , which necessarily imply and supp●se as the parents generating , so th● children begotten of them , the parents make not the generation alone , nor the children alone , but ●oyntly considered together . answer . no person is the covenant-seed , gen. . but abrahams seed , which being meant of his naturall seed , so it includes all descended from him by isaac and jacob in their ●uture g●nerations ; if meant of his spirituall seed [ their g●nerations ] notes either the ages in which they were born by natural generation , or by spiritual regeneration by fathers in christ , who beget them by the gospel ▪ cor. . but , saith mr. c. here anabaptists sever the subject parties taken into the covenant-consideration , they agree it 's abraham & his spiritual seed , but leave out the notation of the seed , soil . seed in their generations the proselyte gentiles in abrahams house , they were not his carnall seed ; why are they then sealed , but as they were abrahams spiri●ual and church-seed . answer . we sever not the subject parties taken into covenant consideration , as mr. c. speaks , but distinguish them : nor do we leave out that no●ation of seed , scil . in their generations ; but take it in , as i have said ▪ the proselytes , if believers , as abraham , they are his seed by faith , if no● , they are not 〈◊〉 seed according to scripture abrahams church-seed is a new-devised term without scripture : yet the proselytes and their chi●dren were to be circumcised by vertue of the command , whether they had any part in the covenant or not , as being in his house , though not of his seed . and if by gods solemnly enjoyning a seal to a blank , or a seal to no covenant of his , ●e meant , that circumcision of the proselytes was a token of that covenant which was no covenant of gods , i deny it ; it was a covenant of gods , in which he made many promises , it was not a token of a covenant that assured nothing , as a paper in which no●hing is written ( which we call a blank ) there were promises and persons specified in the covenant . but if the meaning be this , that god solemnly enjoyned that such should be circumcised to whom no promise was made in that covenant , i grant it true ishmael , &c. and count it no absurdity to say , god in that sense did solemnly enjoyn the seal to be put to a blank . circumcision , in the institution of it , was a token or signe of the covenant made with abraham , rom. . . to be a seal of the righteousness of faith , is said of no ones circumcision but abrahams . what mr. c. means , that it was a seal of the righteousness of faith , not so much subjectivè as objectivè , rom. . i understand not , except this be his meaning , that it did seal not so much the righteousness of faith to the persons circumcised , as this truth , that righteousness is by faith . being understood of abrahams personall circumcision , i conc●ive it sealed both wayes , of any other mans circumcision ; i find not the apostle calling it the seal of the righteousness of faith. but of seals and sealing i have spoken sufficiently in sundry sections before . i shall not contend about that passage , that the baptism of simon magus was in the nature of it , and gods institution , a visible seal of the most spirituall part of the covenant , and yet did not iscariot and magus partake of the spirituall part of the covenant , my former explication being remembred . and i take it as true which next followes , it is peculiar to the elect to be in the covenant in respect of the participation of the saving efficacy of it , rom. . , , . and hence observe ▪ that none but the elect are rightly said to be in the covenant of grace : for none are in the covenant of grace but they to whom it is made ( for what is it to be in the covenant , but to have it made to him ? so the directory , so rom. . . ) but they to whom the covenant of grace is made , are the elect onely . the covenant of grace is the covenant of saving grace , heb. . , , & . . rom. . . cor. . . heb. . . of regeneration , iustification , &c. but that is made onely to the elect : ergo. the minor is proved thus , they to whom it is made , they have the saving efficacy , otherwise god should make it and not perform it , and so his word fall , which is not to be granted : but the elect onely have the saving efficacie , as mr. c. con●esseth . ergo. i deny not , reprobates may in respect of their own profession , be said to be externally in the covenant of grace , in appearance to me● , in the face of the visible church , but not in respect of gods promise and before him , which they say is sealed in the sacrament . nor do i deny the appointment of god to be to circumcise or baptize reprobates as well as elect , and that the nature of these ordinances is the same on both sorts , though the use and efficacy in part be various . nor do i deny the covenant with abraham one , yet hold it is mixt , which is proved from the words of mr c. here in that it holds forth variety of covenant-blessings ; some more common to all , and some more peculiar to a few . but i deny the gospel doth hold forth blessing , common to any other than the godly . it is true , there are promises of this life , tim. . . cor. . . mark . . and reprobates have some such outward things as the elect , as cloaths , ai●e , life , but not as blessings from the gospel , neither sanctified in the same manner , nor upon the s●me tenure . as for circumcision , it was the covenant metonymically onely , and did confirm the whole covenant sacramentally to elect and reprobate . mr. c. yet adds , that if that sort of persons , to wit , infants , or abrahams spirituall seed without personall actuall faith by which it 's said onely persons come to be abrahams seed , it 's enough to prove , that gentile inchurched believers infants are the the seed of abraham . but that is fully proved from gal. . . . . . , , . where , by christ , is meant christ mysticall , that is , christ with his body the church , as cor. . . if then infants be not abrahams seed , then are they not members of christ , nor of the invisible church , and so are without salvati●n . to which i answer , that i never denied that elect infants were abrahams spirituall seed , nor said onely by actuall faith persons are abrahams spiritual seed ▪ but grant that some infants are abrahams spirituall seed , whether by election onely , or by seed of fai●h , or by such a special secret work as is unknown to us , like jacobs struggling in the womb , and taking hold on his brothers heel , or john baptists leaping in the womb of his mother for joy , and so are of the body of christ , and members of the invisible church , and thereby saved . but i deny that infants of gentile believers , whether elect or not , are abrahams spiritual seed , and in that respect in the covenant of grace or promise of god being their god , and thereby admitted to baptism . but mr. c. adds . i say to exclude that sort of persons scil . believers infants from being a part of the visible-church in genera● is to exclude them from any ordinary state and way of salvation . nay i will go further and say , that for any to suppose all the individual infants and each of them which came of such inchurched parents , not to be also par●s of this body of christ the visible church , and consequently not to be abrahams spiritual seed , is to exclude them from a state and way of salvation . in respect to the ordinary course thereo● , and so to leave them all under the consideration of such a way to be saved in as is only extraordinary : ordinarily they are not to be supposed to be saved , or at least it is not to be supposed , that ordinarily , or that in an ordinary way any pagans , or turkes out of the visible church , or any in and of rome as tridentine and antichristian should be saved : yet god may and somtimes doth , and will have some souls brought on to him thence , and even from amongst mahometans &c. but all will yeild i suppose that this is an extraordinary case : and so crosseth not that rule , that without even the visi●le church there is no salvation ; scil . taking the maxime in reference to ordinary times , and with all to the ordinary course and w●y of attaining unto salvation . ans. mr. c. his drift i conceive is to prove , that if infants of believers be not visible church-members they have no ordinary state and way of salvation , and that the maxime is true , that out of the visible church in reference to ordinary times and withal to the ordinary course and way of attainining unto salvation there is no salvation . against which i oppose that if the maxim out of the church there is no sal●a●ion , be understood of the visible church , & the ordinary state & way of salvation , it will as well concern mr. c. to shew how children of believ●rs endued with a reasonable soul and humane body , yet still-born or dying in their mothers womb with her and never born are provided for an ordinary way of salvation as wel as for us concerning infants born alive . i suppose they will not say infants dying in their mothers womb and there buried , and never brought to light , are visible members of the church , who were never visible men , nor that they are to be baptized . what ordinary way & state of salvation external have they more than mahometanes ? if it be said they have election , the vertue of christs death the promise of god according to election , the secret work of the spirit i grant it , and the same may be said of infants living , nor can it be certainly and without doubt denied of papists and m●home●a●s infants . though i confess it is far more probable that oridnarily god gives these means to infants of believers whether churched or unchurched than to the infants of others , and rather to the infants of true believers , than 〈◊〉 professors of faith . yet i dare not determine certainly thereof because of the express resolution of the apostle rom. . concerning ishmael and esau , and his reference thence v. , , , , , . and if he count ●e certain there is no salvation out of the visible church in an ordinary way there being no ordinary way to estate infants in the visible church ( which i grant not as well as he ) but baptism , then he doth as good as affirm , that ordinarily no infant is saved without baptism , which is either the popish tenent or not much shor● of it . this will the more urge m. c. because he limits the promise to abrahams visible church-seed in reference to church-covenant , and i supp●se they of n. e. baptize not infants of parents not inchurched ; what ordinary way of salvation have children of believers not inchurched , who are not accounted visible church members when their parents were not ? and the like must be said of the children of excommunicate persons , of uncertain originall apostates , who are with them , or some of them no visible church-members : how are they in the visible church , and what provision is for them ? for my part i conceive that if the matter be impartially considered , i think their doctrine is pressed with the like difficulty that mine is . i affirm that believers infants , and infants of unbelievers , if elect , are certainly saved ordinarily , that is , according to the constant course of gods purpose by vertue of gods p●omise , christs death , and the spirits secret working , though they be neither baptized , nor are visible church-members and i think they can say no more concerning infants of believers dying with the mother in the womb , and never brought to light , which is no unu●uall thing . i say that it is very probable because of generall indefinite promises and frequent experience that the infants of believing parents are e●ect , when the infants of infidels are not . yet i cannot affirm they are elect , because the promises are not universall to every believers infants ; yea , if they were , as pedobaptists would have them , universall in respect of externall privileges ( which is not true ) yet rhere could be no certainty of election and salvation inferred thence . and therefore though there be a better ground of hope of the salvation of a believers infant than others ; yet in a question concerning ●he certain●y of the event whether they are saved or no , i must suspend my judgement , and leave it to gods secret will , having no rule revealed whereby to determine it . if mr. c. assure any more , i conceive he wiil deceive himself and others . dr. twiss . animadvers . in corvin . pag. . saith thus : ad h●c fortè in ea sententia sunt nostri theologi ut propositum dei de salvandis fidelium liberis in infantili aetate morientibus haud liquido satis demonstrari in sacris literis . et sanè non diffiteor exitia hujus rei suppeditari nobis ex sacris li●eris indi●i● , quibus tamen acquiescimus . but mr c. adds , such then as exclude all infants of believers one or other from the notion of abrahams spiritual seed , from covenant and church-estate , they put them in the pagans , genti●es estate , 〈◊〉 of which paul speakes , who being they and others strangers from the promise and covenants , and from the visible church : they place them in that respect in an estate of persons that are without god in the world , and so under the divel the god of the world ; and in an hopeless estate , neither they nor any for them can have any grounded hope of them , they are without hope , in regard at least of any ordinary way or mean of salvation , eph. . , . answ. i exclude not all infants of believers one or other from the notion of abrahams spirituall seed , from covenant and church-estate , meaning this of being abrahams spiritual seed , and included in the covenant of grace and invisible church , which alone can make god to be their god , estate them in christ , be the ground of a certain hope of their salvation , and that according to an ordinary way . they that teach them to be visible church-members and baptize them , cannot give parents a grounded certain infallible hope of salvation without this ordinary way ; i assen , nor can they give more assurance of that way of baptism , than may be given without it , baptism not saving without the answer of a good conscience towards god , pet. . . neither that nor their imaginary visible church-membership assuring that they are not under the divel , nor without god in the world . and if they do , they do it without scipture , and experience doth too often refute them . mr c go●s on . nor let it seem grievous that our friends and brethren in the lord of ●ame and worth in the church , have , as it seemeth , urged that in case of such an exclusion of believers children , they are made as turks or indians , so far forth in regard that not being in covenant nor church-estate , the apostle truly states such persons cases , they are without hope , and without god in the world : he maketh no distinction of potentia remota and propinqua in that case . answ. it is a grievance to us their brethren in the faith , that mr m. and such men of name and worth in the church , should so misrepresent our tenet as they do , with whom mr c. seems to concur . mr. m. his calumny in misrepresenting my words in his defence , part . sect . as if i had said , that i know no warrant to think election to reach believers children more than unbelievers children , that i know no more promise for them than for the children of unbelievers , is answered in my apologie , sect . . i have shewed here and in my examen , part sect. . and in my apologie sect. . that i put the elect of them into the covenant of grace , and in the invisible church , and this onely is the ground of a sure hope of their interest in god , and christ ; and salvation . and that they are elect i give probable reasons which are not competent to the infants of turks and pagans , . generall indefinite promises not made to turkes and pagans , . the payers of parents and godly for them , . their education and breeding among the godly , whereby they are in a neerer possibility to be godly , than others . . the ●requent experience that the children of the godly prove such ; which yet because those promises are not particular and definite , that is , determining this particular go●d of salvation to each particular person , & prayers are made and heard with limitation of gods will & the education may fa●l in its effect , and experience is not so constant , but that it falls out otherwise in many , therfore there 's no sufficient ground for certain hope but only probable . mr m. mr c. and others , assign ● more , to wit being in covenant & church-estate . but mr c. pag. . confesseth , it is peculiar to the elect to be in covenant in respect of the saving effi●acy of it , rom. . , , . and that being in covenant and church-estate , which he makes common to all , elect and reprobate , cannot assure them certainly of salvation ; therefore were it granted that there were such a covenant of church-privileges and that they were visible church-m●●bers and to be baptized which i conceive to be fictitious ) yet this c●uld 〈◊〉 m●ke the h●pe of their salvation more than probable , no no●●o probable as the reasons i give , where i infer that they do us wrong to instil into peoples 〈◊〉 tha● which tends to make us odious , that our doctrin takes aw●y all 〈…〉 hope of infants salvation , dying in infancy , whē in truth the promise of salvation as we assign it is the same wth●he promise as they assign it , & the grounds we give of the hope of the infants interest , are as sufficient to make it probable as th●i●s , ●f they were supposed true , which yet notwithstanding all they say , we know a●e fictitious . now hereby is a plain answer to mr. c. if infants of tur●s be any of them elected , which mr. c. seems to grant when he saith , god may and sometimes doth and will have some souls brought on to him from rome , and even amongst the mohometans , &c. we do grant they are really and before god in as good a condition as believers children , though not in appearance to us and in respect of their present estate , nor can they be said to be without christ , without god in the world in all respects . but in respect of present state and appearance to us , neither infidels nor their children are in any condi●ion so hopefull as believers and their children , because of the generall indefinite promises they have , the benefit of prayers , which are not with a like a●dency : for infidels though we pray for them also in a more generall manner , the benefit of their education , which if it be to indians children , yet not with a like care . and if it be , we should not think it absurd to say , that if they be brought into godly families , their salva●ion is hopefull as well as believers children . else why doth mr cotton conceive in the way of the churches of new england , in the latter end they may be baptized . and the experience is very frequent concerning godly mens children proving godly , but very rare that an infidels child living among infidels , is converted . and for a word of promise for faith and hope to rest upon , as i said , it hath been shewed , that neither mr m. nor mr c. nor any other can produce any promise in scripture that assures the salvation of an infant of a reall believer , much lesse of a meer professor dying in infancy ; yea , to retort mr c. his argument , we are not to sorrow without hope , concerning our brethren that dye at age : yet we have no certain word of faith to relye on , but that go ● will be the god of elect and true believers , luke . , . but tha● this promise reacheth to our brother deceased at age , we know onely probably , though the probability is greater by reason of his profession and conversation , yet at most but probable , notwithstanding those signes , we are not certain he is elect , he may live and dye an hypocrite . many are canonized for saints in ●eaven who perhaps are among unclean spirits in hell . we therefore in this case are fain to suspend our judgment about the certainty , and to content our selves with a likely hope upon probable grounds . and so we may do concerning our children according to my doctrine , though i confesse the hope is more probable of such a one than of an infant ; yet sometimes also there appears as much cause of ●ear . how ever this i say , that were it not to make our doctrine of antipaedobap●ism odious to parents , who being indulgent to their children , are easily moved to passion towards them , th●t say any thing of them that seems harsh , and are very much inclined to them and their words that tend to feed ●hem with such conceits as occasion their hopes , though but fond , of good to them , our doctrine would be free from this exception . but such courses should be far from men of worth , who should present truth nakedly , without respect to mens affections . as mr c. tells us , he hath been the longer in proof of this seventh conclusion , in that it is the very hinge of the controversie : so i have answered it more fully , though it have been very tedious to me by reason of mr. c. his confused and impertinent dictates . and i do declare that i do not see reason from that which mr. c. hath said to unsay what i said , that the children of believers covenant-estate , at least ecclsiasticall , as asserted by paedobaptists , is a new gospel , not elder than zuinglius , and therefore rejecting it , i shall hold that to be gospel which i find so called , cor . , , , , &c. rom. . , . gal. . . tim , . . rom. . . and such like places and wish mr. c & others of his mind , who upon such uncertain and impertinent allegations , impose their gospel upon mens consciences , to ponder with more seriousness the apostles words● , gal. . . if any man preach any other gospel than that ye have received , let him be accursed . sect . xlv . mr c. his answers to objections against his seventh conclusion , part . . c. . sect. . of his just vindic. are considered , and mr. bl. his tenent concerning the generall term of a covenant , that it is a mutuall agreement . i wave the first objection here , and for my speeches about pharez , zara , and others , and that of the jewes being branches of the olive by their birth , that i forget not my self , and how far i own them and wherein i correct them , or explain them , may be seen in the first part of the review , sect. . ● , . the second objection is thus , if infants be in the covenant of grace , and born so , then such infants were born in the covenant , and never out . and besides , gods covenant of saving grace bi●g absolute , and undertaking to give saving grace to such as are in covenant with him , all such must be saved , unless god fail of his truth . to this mr. c. answers , . that covenant of grace , as i. s. acknowledgeth it to be mentioned , deu. . it was made with little ones then unborn intentionally , v. , . as well as with those then present actually : so that when they were born ▪ they were born in the covenant and never out . as much may be said of the infant elect seed , or children of the promise dying infants , they were born so , and never out of that estate after they were actually existent : yea they were all girded in the covenant , jer. . answ. the passage deut. . . is not meant of gods covenant or promise to them , but their promise or covenant to god , as appears in that v. . moses is said to make the covenant with them , that is , to engage them in their own persons for themselves and little ones to own god and his lawes , and v. . it is said , before the lord our god , which shewes that the person making that covenant , v. . was distinct from the lord , and this covenant he made with him that was not there with them that day , to wit , the unborn posterity , as rightly m. c. and others eonceive , and this covenant moses made with them by engaging them by an oath of their p●inces and progenitors , in the same sense as saul and the israelites were bound to the oath made by joshuah and the princes of israelites to the gibeonites ▪ so that those unborn are not said to be in gods covenant of grace as made by him , and so intentionally onely because not existent ; but they were in covenant with god virtually , because of the obliga●ion which lay on them by their progenitors and princes engagement for them to take the lord for their god , and upon their obedience god engaged himself to establ●sh them to be a people unto himself . and this , i confess , did ever oblige them ; but it is nothing to the objection which speaks of gods covenant as made to infants , not of infants covenant as made to god. nevertheless i confess what ever were the authors meaning in that objection , it is no absurdity to grant , that elect infants dying so , were born in the covenant and never out , that is , they had the promise of god made to them at , yea and before their birth , and in respect of the actuall possession of the benefits of the covenant , they were in the covenant before their death and never out . but so are not elect infants dying in respect of outward church-privileges , they are not born visible church-members , nor subject to be baptized . . saith mr c. gods covenant did not barely offer , or promise to covenant ; but made a covenant , a covenant and an oath with them that day , deut. . , , , . and amongst other promises engaged himself to circumcise their hearts chap. . . yet were not all in heart circumcised , and yet the promise of god failed not , being in the generall propounded to them conditionally , and not as it is said here absolutely , at least it had reference to them all in common . the word of the promise took not effect in as many of the jewes to whom the covenant promises externally belonged , yet it followed not , that therefore it took no effect at all , and that god was unfaithfull , for it took effect in others , rom. . . and . , , . and so here . answ. what this is to the objection which is here answered , i do not well understand . gods covenant of saving grace , whether expressed gen. . . to a●raham and his spirituall seed , or heb. . or elswhere , is absolute in respect of the persons to whom , god takes into covenant persons of his own good pleasure without any previous disposition moving him to promise to this rather than that , though some benefits of that covenant are promised upon condition , and all those to whom it is made , must be saved , unless god fail of his truth . but for the covenant , deut . , , , . it was their covenant to god , as well as gods covenant to them , nor was it the covenant of grace according to the gospell made to gentile-believers , but a nationall engagement of the israelites to observe the lawes of god which moses made with them at gods command in the land of moab , besides the covenant which he made with them in hor●b , and gods engagement thereupon to take them for a people while they observed his laws in which covenant first moses tells them what god hath done for them , notwithstanding their dulness to perceive it ; and then ejoyns them , v. to keep the words of the covenant and do them , that they might prosper in all that they did : and then tells them , that they all stood there in a full assembly , that they might be engaged for themselves , their little ones , strangers within their camp , and posterity to observe gods commands , and then tells them that god would establish them for a people unto himself , that is , that he would continue them to be a distinct people to him from other nations , and be a god to them according to his oath to abraham , isaac and jacob , that is , to drive out ●he canaanites , to give them their land , to make them great and prosperous , which is manifestly a covenant proper to israel , and it is not denied to be propounded to them conditionally , and to have reference to them all in common , and was of the same sort with the covenant at mount sinai ▪ not the covenant of regenerating and saving grace made to the gentiles , called the new covenant confirmed by christs blood , deut. . . god promised to circumcise their heart and the heart of their seed : which promise i do not now conceive to be conditionall : for though v. . there be a condition expressed , yet i think it is not a condition of the promise v. . but of the promise v. . to wit , of restoring from captivity upon their seeking of god. but if it be made a condition of the promise v. . yet it is not a condition competent to infants , nor is it there made to any but the israelites , and to them onely at the time of their return from captivity in reference to their re-establishing in the land of canaan , and so was not common to them all , much less to all believing gentiles at all times . it is untrue that the promise of saving grace is made to any onely externally , or that it takes not effect in all to whom it is made , or that any such thing is meant rom. . . & . , , . though i deny not that there were many promises to israel after the flesh , which being indefinite in respect of persons , and conditionall upon obedience to the lawes given by moses , took not effect in all the israelites , though in generall propounded , and therefore notwithstanding some attained them not , yet the faith of god was not without effect . but all this is nothing to the objection concerning gods covenant of saving grace in christ , which is not shewed to be made to any but the saved , nor shewed to be in respect of the persons taken into covenant conditional . saith mr. c. this argument supposeth that one cannot be within the covenant of saving grace externally , but they must be in a saving estate , the contrary whereunto appeareth , concl. . and it is said of sundry illegitimate jewish children , that they were within the covenant of saving grace , namely externally : for the author cannot mean other . and yet of all such who will say , they were all in a saving estate ? even esau's birthright was more than right to isaac's temporall estate as born of isaac , it was a church blessing as well as a naturall and civill . ans. that any one is in the covenant of saving grace onely externally , is not proved before . my words examen pag. . which m● c. seems to mean , [ ●h●t pharez and zarah of judah and tamar , jephie of gilead , and many others were within the covenant of saving graces and church-privileges ] are not meant of the covenant of saving grace ex●ernally onely , but also internally . esau's birth-right was more than right to isaac's temporall estate as born of isaac , it is that which jacob was not born to , for it was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the right of the first born , which jacob had not but by purchase and blessing , nor is it denied to be a church-blessing , but that it was the spirituall blessing promised to abrahams seed , to wit justification and salvation from the covenant of saving grace i do not conceive : for that was not limited to the first born as the birth-right was , and therefore it se●ms to have been either the superiority , or the inh●ritance of canaan , or the descent of christ and the chuch of god from him ( to which i most incline ) the losse of wh●ch being a great losse , and having with it the privation of interest in the covenant of saving grace , he being h●ted of god , made isaac tremble and esau cry , and were a 〈◊〉 instance to set before the cristian hebrews , lest th●y through prophane under●●●●ing christ , fail of the grace of god. mr. c. adds . object but saith ● . s. the covenant of grace being a covenant , there must be a mutuall agreement betwixt the covenanters , and so knowledge and consideration of the terms thereof , and restipulation as in mens covenants . henry den a little differently maketh a necessity of the persons entering into covenant with god , scil . by faith unto covenant-right , and not meerly gods entering into covenant with the creature , for so he entered into covenant with the beasts , &c. gen. . answer . to which i answer , the covenant of grace is as well a testament , cor. . heb . now a testament may be , and useth to be made in reference to little ones without their knowledge , nor do any us● to deny a childs right in the testators will because it was taken in amongst other legacies in the bequeathed legacies before it understood the same . nor will it be denied in the case of the elect seed , the choice parties in gods covenant , gen. . that they , many of them , dying infants , without actuall knowledge , were not therefore children of the promise , or that that solemn covenant deut. . , , , , , , , & . , , , , , &c. with that people , wherein conditions also were propounded on their parts , that therefore the covenant was not made betwixt the little ones there present because they neither understood ▪ nor could actually subscribe to the conditions , the contrary being there expressed : no , rather it sufficed , that the childrens covenant-estate being the parents privilege , whence the encouragements to abraham to walk with god , gen. . , &c. from that amongst other encouragements , that god would become his seeds god also , & , . v. . and so deut. and . amoongst other encouragements to the parents that is one , v. . that god will do so for their seed also : yea the children being reckoned as in their parents , as levi paid tythes in abraham , &c. yea , the externall avouching a covenant may be of god , being owned as the children● , deut. ● . , . yea the childrens circumcision being as well the parents covenant duty : whence called the covenant , or the covenant parties covenant part or duty as well as the token of gods covenant , gen. . , , , . they restipulate in their parents knowing acceptance of the covenant and professed owning of it upon the covenant terms , as well upon their childrens part as their own & they restipulate in a passive reception of the cvenant-condition and bond too after imitation of their father abrahams purpose● . s. confessed circumcision was annexed to the covenan● : yea , the bastard children of judah and gilead , and others , are acknowledged to be in the covenant of saving grace , which yet could not personally restipulate in a way of actuall knowledge , or faith , or the like . answ. the objection , as it is not mine , so i might let it and the answer passe , but that there are some things in the answer to it , that do requi●e consideration . in the first part of this review ▪ sect. . answering mr. stephens his argumen●s for the convertibility , as he ca●ls i● , of a word of promise and a word of command , from the general nature of covenants between men and men , i had said , the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●o not alwayes note a mutuall covenant , and mutuall performanc●s ▪ and instanced in gen. . . and said , , there is a single covenant as well as mu●uall , and further added , that if it be true , that such a convertibility must needs be between those persons that do contract according to the generall nature of covenants , then there can be no covenant between god and inf●nt 〈◊〉 infant cannot contract . if any say the parents do 〈◊〉 act for them to : i say , be it so ; then according to this arguing , they should also seal o● be sealed for them hereup●n mr bl. vindic f●d . append. pag. . taks occasion to answer part of this , maintaining pag. . that there is a mutuall contract , and mutual performances , to which persons are engaged , not onely usually in covenants , but in all covenants , and that i● is of the general nature of covenants , that there should be such a convertibility as that both must , if not seal , yet contrast or perform , and where a seal is vouchsafed , must accept of it . and to the allegation of gen. . , . answers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is taken improperly , as job . . whereto i reply , that it must needs be confessed , that covenant , job . . must needs be understood improperly , for the stones of the field cannot properly covenant , that is , promise any thing , who are there said to be in covenant with man , but gen. . , . where god is said to establish his covenant with all living . i see not why it should be taken improperly , sith covenanting doth properly agree to god , who doth in proper sense promise , and in improper sense it would not be rightly said of god , that he did not make a conant , but as it were make a covenant , or do some other thing which is resembled by making a covenant , which must be the explication of that phrase if god be conceived to speak improperly . if mr bl. do conceive any tropicall impropriety of speech in that expression , i suppose he cannot reduce it to any trope in rhetorick , but that he will ma● the sense of the words . and if gods covenant with noah and his sons , be properly understood v. . i see not any reason why the same term wi●hout repetition applied to beasts , as the object of the covenant , c●n be taken any otherwise than properly . besides , this covenant gen. . seems to be called gods oath , isa. . . and therefore is properly taken . nor do i know any interpreter who understands it improperly . paraeus hence gathers , foedus hoc est universale dei cum omnibus creaturis terrestribus . & est absolutum non conditiona●um . and the new annotations of mr. l●y ▪ on gen. have it thus : some allege this place against the anabaptists , and thus it may serve to refute this fancy , viz. that the covenant of god may be made with , and the seal of the covenant applied to creatures that have not the use of reason , which they deny , in denying the administration of baptism to them . which pass●ge although it have this falshood , that we deny that the covenant of god may be ma●e with or to infants : yet it appears that they who speak thus , understand gods covenant gen. . ▪ properly . the promise heb. . . of writing gods lawes in their hearts , is called the covenant , unto which no covenant is prerequired , and to take away the evasion , as if it were not a covenant properly so called , but a prophecy , or but a part of the covenant , there being other promises which prerequire conditions , it is to be observed , that it is not onely called the better covenant , v. . as being made a law upon better promises , and having a better priesthood to execute it , but also it is opposed to the old covenan● , and as coming in its stead , and therefore if in the one it be properly meant , it is so in the other : and jerem. . ● . the promise , that he will not turn away from them to do them good , but will put his fear in their hearts , that they shall not depart from him ▪ is his covenant . the covenant to abraham and his se●d is called promises , gal . . which shews that promis●s on one part may b● called ● covenant . and though in de●ds indented there are mutuall promises , yet in deeds poll as the lawyers call them , i think a person is said to covenant to another , though there be no condition or promise required of him to whom the deed is made . as for that which mr. bl. saith , where there is a seal vouchsafed , the party to whom the promise is , must accept of it : it is true if it be required , but it is expected that it should be shewed , that god ever required the infants of believers to be baptized in their own persons . to return to mr. c. most of the things he answers are granted , or else examined before ; but the chiefest thing in the answer is denied , to wit , that parents knowing acceptance of the covenant , and their passive reception of the covenant-condition and bond to after imitation of their father abrahams faith and obedience , is or may be termed the infants restipulation intituling to baptism . in the answer to the next objection , mr. c seems to charge us rather than himself , to block up the ordinary way to regeneration , and to debar believers children from the ordinary means of their chief good , by denying them interest in the word of promise , the which is such a means , &c. but therin mr c. his charge is but vain : for the word of promise , which is the means of regeneration , is not the covenant of externall privileges , but the promise of saving grace in christ , which we debar them of no more than mr. c. doth . and when he denies that he makes every believer to be abraham , sure he must do so if he expound gen. . . i will be a god to thee abraham , that is , to every believer , and to thy seed , that is , every believers seed . and when he grants that god doth not promise such a particular land now as to abraham , and that the multiplying of abrahams , &c. was of peculiar consideration , he must grant that the covenant made with abraham had peculiar domestick promises not common to all believers , which is all one as to say , it was a mixt covenant , and that circumcision had some reason from the promises in the covenant , which were p●culiar to abrams naturall posterity , which is sufficient to prove there is not par ratio ▪ or the same reason of bapt●zing infants , as for circumcising them . i find no where any but abraham a covenant-father , as mr. c. would have it , no where doth god say he would be a god to isaac , and jacob , and to their seed : nor is it said , rom. . . , that they were covenant fathers to their posterity , nor jesse a covenant-root to david , isai. . . and by mr c. his doctrine , inchurched believers are made abrahams , sith it makes the prom●ses to be to them and their seed , which is ascribed to abraham onely , gal . . luke . . but mr. c. objects , that the apostle calls all those inchurched jewes of old , our fathers , fathers to him and to the gentiles , corinthian members , corinth : . , &c. to which i answer , they could not be called the corinthians naturall parents , being not descended from them ; nor their covenant-fathers , for they were many of them such , as god was not well pleased with , v. . and the corin●hians desce●ded not from them , and therefore derived no ex●ernall church-privilege from them : therefore either it must be understood that they were called ancestors of the corinthian christians , who are called idolaters , chap. . . either in the sense we call any in foregoing generations our fathers though we are not descended from them by naturall generation , or else by the figure of communication , wherein that is spoken as common to others with the persons mentioned , which is not common indeed , but either ou● of familiarity , indulgence , desire to ingratiate , or such like reason we attribute it to them to whom it is not to be attributed , as paul , ephes. . , . peter pet. . . which was not true of them . philip. . . acts . . but meant of the gentiles to whom they wrot , col. . . gal. . . and so our fathers is not of you corinthians , but of me and softheues , cor. . , or by an enallage of persons , as when paul saith , thess. . . we which are alive , it is not to be conceived to be true of himself , or of any of the thessalonians to whom he then wrot , but it is [ we ] for [ they ] the first for the third person . but saith mr. c. if isaac and jacob were not such fathers to their seed also , as was abraham in covenant and church-respects , how then are the jewes said to be beloved for their [ fathers ] sakes ? surely it was not for their sakes as men , and naturall fathers , but as spirituall and covenant-fathers , rom. . , . compared ; yea the covenant is expresly made in those terms to isaac & to his seed , to jacob and to his seed , gen. . , , , & , . and so though they were abrahams church and covenant seed , yet covenant fathers to others , and so gentile inchurched believers are abrahams church-seed , yet covenant-fathers to their children . the term root , and first fruits , and the term fathers , rom. . . . are not proved to be the same . the fathers , it 's not denied to comprehend isaac and jacob , as well as abraham : but they are called fathers there in respect of the naturall genera●ion of the israelites to be re-ingraffed , not as covenant-fathers propagating externall church privileges even to gentile inchurched believers : for they are there reckoned as the israelites progenitors , not the gentile inchurched believers progenitors . yet i deny not that god hath reference in that passage to his covenant made with them , and his love to them ▪ and so the jewes now broken off , yet are beloved by god , with an intention to restore their posterity out of remembrance of his ancient amity and covenant with their forefathers , which cannot be verified of the gentile inchurched believers in respect of their children . neither gen. . , , , nor gen. . , , is either of the evangelicall promises made to abraham , gen. . , a father of many nations have i made thee , or that v. . to be a god to him and his seed , made either to isaac , gen. . , , , or jacob , gen. . , . though the promises of multiplying their seed , blessing them , giving them the land of canaan in their seed , blessing all the nations or families of the earth , be there mentioned , which , with sundry passages , of the apostle rom. . , , , . rom. . , , . gal. , , , and other places assure me those evangelicall promises , gen. . . . were made to abraham peculiarly , neither as a patriarch out of a reason common to him with other patriarks , nor as a believer ●ut of a reason common to him wi●h other believers , but out of a peculiar consideration of ●im , either as father of believers by his exemplary faith , or as a person elected by god to have the covenant instated in him and his seed . as for mr. c. his answer to the objection from rom. . . if that text prove not that all that are abrahams seed are actuall believers , yet i● proves that the promise is sure to all that are abrahams seed by actuall believing as he did , and consequently are saved . to his qustion , if all members of the visible church be not abrahams seed , what right have they to the seal of the covenant made to abrahams seed ? i answer ▪ right to circumcision ●nd baptism is not from the covenant , but according to gods appointment to some , whether they be in covenant or not , abrahams seed or not . gal. . , , . gal. . . i have formerly shewed that by [ vs all ] are not meant every galatian christian professor , but true believers , as rom. . cor. , . cor. . . & therefore thence it cannot be gathered , that any meer professor of faith is abrahams seed , much less his infants . none but true believers are said gal. . , to be baptized into christ , and to put on christ , though others were baptized into his name : which appears verse . where they are said to be the sons of god through faith in christ jesus , and yet there were other than elect persons in that church , and they baptized . mr. c. methinks should not be ignorant that what is said of persons in the churches indefinitely , is sometimes verified onely of the choyce party , cor. . . thess. . . pet. . . & . . by a synecdoche of the whole for a part nor doth mr c. his distinction of baptizing into christ , putting on christ , being children of the promise , being by one spirit baptized into one body , attributing these to all sacramentally , and in facie ecclesiae , suit well to these places , in which the predicate cannot be attributed in truth to those that are meerly such . as for the last objection , mr. c. must needs be guilty of making three parties in the covenant , abraham , his seed believers , and their infants . for believers are not comprehended under abraham , but under his seed , nor believers naturall infants comprehended under abrahams seed , except they be true believers , or elect persons , nor in the covenant made to abraham and his seed doth abraham sustain the person of all believers , jewes and genti●es , but of the father of them , and therefore as yet mr. c. his conclusion remains unproved , that the covenant interest at least externall and ecclesiasticall of infants of inchurched believers , is gospel , but a figment of mr. c. not found in scripture . sect . xlvi . the , , chapters of mr. blakes vindic. faeder is are examined , and it is shewed , that he hath not proved the covenant of grace in gospel times to admit or to be made to any but the elect regenerate . sith mr. bl. is accounted one of the chief patrons of infant baptism , my purpose is to examine the remainder of that which he hath written in his vindic. foed . against me for infant baptism , and may be conceiv●d to be yet unanswered . ch. ▪ pag. , . he heaps up many texts to prove that in old testament times the covenant was made with israel in the vttermost latitude and extent with all that bore the name of israel , which i grant , understanding it of the national covenant , deut. . and of the covenant of the law , exod . &c. but deny it being meant of the covenant o● evangelical grace , which is the onely covenant the people of god are now under , and which alone is the question now , who are in this covenant ? or to whom is this covenant or the promise● of it made by god ? i assert as before , sect. . that it is made onely to the elect ▪ and m. bl. pag. . yeelds that many orthodox writers seemingly restrain the covenant one●y to the elect and regenerate . but he addes some distinctions , whereby he thinks what they say may be salve● from self contradictions . . of a two fold covenant , a single , ▪ a double to perform both parts , to save upon repentance , and to give a new heart : but he doth not shew that there is any evangelical covenant now which is not double , nor that either the double or single is made with any but the elect . . of an inward covenant , which ●e grants to be made onely to the elect ; and an outward , which , he saith , is a covenant properly so called , and which scripture holds out for the covenant of god with his people , in which all professed christians so called are , which puts them into a capacity of sacraments , and their children of the initial sacrament : but what this outward covenant is , or where it is to be found i know not ; what i find about it ●s shewed to be vain , sect. . and mr. bs. refutation of it in his apology against mr. bl. pag. , , ● ▪ saves me any further labour to shew it to be a figment . of being in covenant according to title to the covenant , or to the benefits of the covenant ; and saith , the right of covenant belongs to all that externally mak● profession , the benefit onely to the elect . but i know no right of covenant , but what is by gods promise , and surely all to whom god promiseth have the benefit of the covenant ; and to imagine , that the covenant of grace is to any to whom the grace following the covenant is not , is to make gods covenant and word to fall , which the apostle abhorred , rom. . . and to make the covenant of grace as liable to complaint ●s the first covenant , contrary to heb. ▪ , , , , ▪ . of entring into covenant , which all visible professors do , and stedfastness in it , which do onely the elect and faithfull , psal. . ● . but this text speaks not of the covenant of evangelical grace as if any were entred into it who were not stedfast in it : but of the covenant of the law with the jewish people , which is not the covenant in which the gentiles are under the gospel . and to mr. bls. confused talk i again say , . that the covenant of evangelical grace is made by god onely to the elect , and that in respect of gods promise none but they are in the covenant , nor is there to any right to sacraments or capacity of an initial seal barely by that being in covenant . . that profession of faith may cause a man to be taken to be in the covenant by the guides and brethren of the visible church , in the face of which he may have title to sacraments , but his infant children have no title thereby to baptism . . that from the beginning none but the elect had the covenant of grace made to them . . that from the beginning it is not proved the children with their parents to have been no not in the imaginary outward covenant . but let●s v●ew what mr. bl. saith ▪ . he alledgeth matth. . . and takes it as freely con●est , that a disciple of christ is in covenant with god , and tels us that the covenant matth. . . is committed to man to work , and to judge of it being wrought , to put a seal for ratification and confirmation of it ; which cannot be restrained to the elect , for they onely are known to god ; an elect person and a church member should be termini convertibiles , the seal of the spirit , and the seal of the sacrament are in equal latitude ; to baptize an unregenerate person is to put a seal to a blank , as high an abuse of that sacred ordinance as the circumcision of the sichemites , gen. ▪ . answ. it is not confest by me that a disci●le of christ , that is every disciple of christ is in covenant with god , meaning it in respect of gods covenant or promise of evangelical grace made to him , nor do i know of any covenant , matth. . . committed to man to work , and to judge of it being wrought , and to put a seal for ratification and confirmation , though i grant every disciple professing christ is in some sense in covenant with god , that is , by his act of profession doth engage himself to follow christ , and so in that respect is in covenant with god , and that matth. . . the apostles are injoyned to make disciples by preaching the gospel , and baptize them , which may be done without working a covenant between god and man , ( which phrase doth imply that a minister can work god into covenant , which is in my apprehension an absurd conceit ) or judging of a covenant being wrought , or putting to a seal for confirmation of it . and for the absurdities mr. bl. infers from the denial of restraining the covenant to the elect , i count the first not to follow upon my tenet , sith i conceive a man may be a church-member who is not in the covenant of grace ; and for the second , i count it no absurdity according to my explicat●on before given , sect. ▪ . though i do withal declare , that the seal of the sacrament is a term i reject for the reasons given before , sect. . and for the third , i count it no abuse to put a seal to a blank , that is , to baptize a person who is not in the covenant of evangelical grace . as for the d . argument mr. bl. would draw from matth. . . to prove that the covenant of god is onely a covenant professed , because matth. ▪ . a whole nation is in gods ordinary way of administration in a capacity to attain and enter into it , it is answered in the d . part of this review , sect . . where it is shewed that matth. ● . . there is no such command as to make disciples , and bap●ize the whole of a nation , even the infants . mr. bl. adds a d . text , matth , . . & . . whence he argues thus ; if there be a call from god in the times of the n. t. in a far greater latitude then the grace of election , that of many called few onely are elected , then the covenant in the n.t. times is not to be restrained to the elect and regenerate , but contains all that professedly accept the terms of the covenant , and visibly appear a people of god. this is evident , seeing the call is into covenant ; all at the feast were called ones , all the hired labourers were covenant-servants . to conceive men to be called of god , and not to be in covenant with god , is a full contradiction . the call hath its terminus a quo and its terminus ad quem ; a state which upon call they leave , and a new state on which they enter . they are upon this call in a nearer relation to god then the rest of the world , otherwise they were the same as ever , and not called at all . but there is a call in n. t. times , &c. ergo. answ. the consequence of the major is denied , and to the proof of it i say , . the call is not into covenant with god in the sense which 〈◊〉 n●w in question : for now the question is , whether there be a covenant in the n. t. wherein god engageth himself to be god , and to account for his people any besides the elect ? now no man is called into covenant in this sense , for no man is called to engage god to be god , &c. it were an arrogant act to call or invite men to engage god , it is god onely who is to do this , and therefore if any were to be called to this , it were god himself . . it is not true , that to conceive men to be called of god , and not to be in covenant with him is a full contradiction . for though the calling mentioned rom. . . do always bring men into an estate of being in covenant with god , yet not the calling matth. . . & . . for though the calling there have a terminus a quo & ad quem , in the one resembled by calling to work in the vineyard , in the other by calling to a wedding feast ; yet that every one that was called had a new state on which he did enter , is not true : for even those who refused to come were called , matth. . , . and the m●n who came in without a wedding garment , though he sate down , yet was not in a state of covenant , or acceptance , but was thrust out . nor is mr. bls. arguing of any force . men are called into covenant with god , therefore they are in covenant with god : for by the same reason it might be inferred , the same men are called into the fellowship of christ , cor. . . into the kingdome and glory of god , thes. . . therefore some non●elect persons are in the fellowship of christ , in the kingdom and glory of god , which is false . mr. bl. adds mat. . , , . & . . & tim. . . whence he argues thus . a man in the kingdome of heaven is a man that is in covenant with god ; unless he stood in a covenant relation he could have no standing there ; and the comparison were very strangely drawn , if this kingdome thus set out had all that were good , none bad in it . answ. it is granted that good and bad , elect and non-elect are in the visible church , and so in the kingdome of heaven , if by it be meant the visible church : but that a man in the kingdome of heaven is a man that is in covenant with god , that is a man in the visible church is a man that is in covenant wi●h god , so as that god hath made a covenant or promise of evangelical grace to or with him , is denied , nor is ; or ever will be proved by mr. bl. a th . text is heb. . . whence he saith , these must needs be granted to be wicked , yet cannot be denied to be in covenant , being sanctified with the bloud of the covenant . and then sets down three interpretations ; one of the arminians , that say they were sanctified internally and in covenant , but fall from both , which he lets pass ▪ another , that christ is said to be sanic●fied , which seems to him to be very much strained . a third , by external separation for god and dedication to him , which he embraceth . answ. neither do i conceive tha● it is christ who is said to be sanctified by the bloud of the covenant : for though i grant he is said to be sanctified , joh. . . and to sanctifie himself , joh. . . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to consecrate or make perfect , heb. . . & . . & . . yet i do not find 〈◊〉 phrase applied to christ any where , that he is said to be sanctified by the bloud of the covenant ; but still applied to those that a●e bought by christ , heb. . , . & . . nor doth it so well suit with the apostles aim of aggravating the s●n o● apostacy from christianity , to mean it of christs being sanctified , as of the apostates being sanctified heretofore by that bloud of the covenant which he now counted common , or unclean : nor do i conceive it can be meant of such a meer external sanctification , whether by baptism , or external profession , as mr. bl. and others conceive . for . the sanctification here is the same with the sanctification meant , ver . , . & . . but that sanctification i● more then such an external sanctification , e●en such as perfects for ever them that are sanctified , v. . and hath with it the writing and remission of sins according to the covenant which is set down v. , , . . no where is such an external sanctification ascribed to the bloud of the covenant ; but to ascribe to it such a meer external sanctification in any sanctified by it , is to d●minish the vertue of it , as if it did no more then the legal sacrifices , contrary to the apostles arguing , heb. . , , . . nor thirdly , had it aggravated the apostates sin to say that he had counted the bloud of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified onely externally , a common thing : for this had shewed no more evil in the disestee● of christs doat● , then if the bloud of the legal sacrifices which did san●●ifie externally , heb. ● . . had been counted unclean . therefore i conceive the sanctifying heb. . . meant of the effectual sanctifying before god , meant heb. . . & . ▪ . & ● . . but yet understand the sanctifying , heb ▪ . not of what was so really , but of what was according to their own opinion , and profession embracing the christian doctrine . even as gal. . . whosoever are justified by the law , that is , whosoever of you do avouch that you are justified by the law. luke . . some are said to be just persons needing no repentance ; that is , in their own opinion and profession , as those luke . . and thus i conceive is that speech also to be understood , pet. . . and hereby the arminian argument from both places for universal redemption , and apostacy of saints is avoided . now these may be denied to have been in covenant , that is , to have been of those to whom god promised gospel grace , sith they were onely sanctified according to their own opinion and profession ▪ yea though the sanctification were meant of being sanctified externally , and this were from the bloud of the covenant , yet it follows not that those who are sanctified thus are in covenant with god , as the meaning of those is who say the elect onely are in covenant , that is , the covenant of evangelical grace is made by god onely to the elect . mr. bl. adds neither can all the noise which mr. t. hath made about pet. . . take off that text , but that it speaks fully to hold up a covenant in this latitude ; and from thence i thus argue . if those phrases , a chosen generation , a royal priesthood , an holy nation , a peculiar people , be applied to christians as to jews in an equal latitude to one ●s to other ; then it must needs follow that there is a covenant in gospel times in like latitude as in the time of the law , including all that accept the terms of the covenant , and visibly appear as t●e people of god , and is not restrained onely to the elect regenerate . the consequence is evident , seeing the terms plainly imply a covenant . here is a covenant people or no where : but these terms , a chosen generation , a royal priesthood , an holy nation , a peculiar people , are applied to christians as well as to jews , to one in as great a latitude as to the other . that which god speaks to israel in the wilderness , that peter speaketh to the church to which he writes ▪ all israelites in moses days , all christians professing , in peters time , had those titles , when onely those that kept covenant were at any time worthy of them , and had the comforts of them . answ. the noise i make is not a meer sound without reason , nor is any one of my reasons made void by mr. bls. answers . to him i reply ▪ . that his speech is inconsiderate when he saith the text speaks fully to hold up a covenant in this latitude , which comprehends non-elect persons , when there is not a word of any covenant , and the terms he onely saith plainly imply a covenant . and though i deny not that the people there mentioned were a covenant people , yet i deny any one of the terms doth imply a covenant ; for a chosen generation doth not imply a covenant , sith both electi●n and generation may be without a covenant ; and the like may be said of the other terms , a royal priesthood , an holy nation , a peculiar , or purchased people : ●o that in this respect the consequence may be denied . nor is the consequence good for another reason . for it is not true that all israelites in moses days had those titles , which i find exod. ▪ , . yet there onely three of them , and those not said of all the israelites in m●ses days , but a promise of being to god such as these titles import , upon condition they did hearken to his voice , and kept his covenant , which was neither verified of all israelites in moses days , nor in after times . and therefore though those terms were applied to christians as to jews , yet it doth not necessarily follow that there is a covenant in gospel times in like latitude as under the law , sith those titles were not verified of all the jews at any time , but of them and then onely when they were obedient but i deny the minor also of mr. bls. argument , that the terms are applied by peter in an equal latitude to christians as by moses to jews , and assert as in my postscri●t , sect . . pag. . that they are applied onely to those who are members of the invisible church . whereupon mr. bl. speaks thus to me . but i would wish mr. t. to take into more serious consideration . first , whether the first verse of this second chapter be meant onely of invisible members ? whether the apostle pe●swades regene●ate men , and onely regenerate men , to lay aside all malice , and all guile , and hypocrisies , and evil speakings ? answ. to the first question i say affirmatively , that by new born babes , v ▪ ▪ are meant onely members of the invisible ch●rch ; for they are said , ch . . . to be born again , not of corruptible seed , but incorruptible , by the word of god which liveth and abideth for ever ▪ ver. . to be elect according to the fore-knowledge of god the father , begotten again unto a lively hope , ver . . and to the d . that he mentions onely regenerate persons , whom he perswades , though the duty is incumbent on others . ly . whether the d. v. be to be thus limited ; whether the apostle makes doubt in that manner , whether they had tasted that the lord is gracious ? and yet those words in both those verses must needs be understood of the same men , and under the same notion as these , ver . . the apostle brings his speech to no full period till v. . those that must lay aside all malice , guile , &c. of whom he makes question , whether they had tasted that the lord were gracious ; they are this chosen generation , this royal priesthood . answ. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pet. . . is translated [ if ] and may seem to import doubt or uncertainty , but it may be as well translated [ seeing ] as it is thes. . . and so it imports certainty that they had tasted how gracious the lord is , without making question of it . and this reading is more apposite to their condtiion , and more suitable to the exhortation ; for it is more agreable to the nature of a motive to the duty , ver . . to conceive it thus , desire the word to grow by it , sith or seeing you have tasted how gracious the lord is . . but if it were read [ if ] yet in such pass●ges as these [ if ] doth not import doubt , but onely is as a rational particle , noting the connexion between the terms , as joh. . . ephes. . , . and so the sense is here , if you have tasted ( which he supposeth , not questioneth ) then you ought to desire the milk of the word , that you may grow by it . . were it the apostle had doubt whether they had tasted how good the lord is ( which is not to be conceived , considering what he saith of them , c. . v. , . c. . , . &c. ) yet this doubt might be of a more full tast , which every regenerate elect person might not have . . the exhortation to lay aside malice , &c. doth not intimate they were any of them whom he calls new born babes , v. . a chosen generation , an holy nation , v. . unregenerate or non-elect ; for such exhortations are necessary for the most holy saints , in whom are reliques of corruption , and liableness to temptation . ly . saith mr. bl. let him seriously consider the apostles further enlargement of this honour of these christians , which in times past were not a people of god ; words borrowed from hos. . . hos. . . and spoken of the call of the ten revolted tribes : and in deut. . . of the call of the gentiles into a visible church state and profession , and so applied by the apostle , rom. . , , . whence i argue . the call of the ten revolted tribes , and of the gentiles into a visible church way , is not to be meant of the church as it is invisible onely . this mr. t. hath taken into consideration , and answered . however it be in the p●aces to which the allusion is , yet it is certain that here it is meant of such a calling as is from darkness to marvellous light ; taking it , it seems , for granted , that there is no marvellous light in visible churches ; that in the land of zebulon and nephthali where they saw a great light , there were onely invisible members . matth. . , . answ. my answer to this objection was in two things . . that terms appli●d to christians in the new testament with allusion to passages in the old , yet are not always to be applied to christians in the same latitude they were to jews . . that in that place such a calling is meant as is from darkness to his marvellous light by his vertues or powers ; which therefore deserve to be shewed forth , and which they do shew forth that are thus called . and both these i confirmed from rom. . , , . which is manifestly said of them who were called v. . vessels of mercy ; nor is this a denomination a parte praestantiori , for it is expresly said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were the same whom he called vessels of mercy . and the same place of hos. . . is alluded to in rom. . . and pet. . . and can be understood of no other then the elect . and therefore if the places hos. . . hos. . . deut. . . should be understood ( which i grant not ) of any other then the elect or members of the invisible church ; yet pet. . . can be understood of no other , sith no other have such a calling as is there meant , v. . nor any other obtain mercy as there is meant . that which mr. bl. replies after his flirting fashion , goes on this false insinuation , that i took it for granted , that there is no marvellous light in visible churches , which he would refute from matth. . , . and that this was the force of my reason ; whereas my reason did not suppose that at all , but that none are so called from darkness to light in that manner the apostle there describes the calling , but onely the elect , which is true ; though there be marvellous light in visible churches , yea , and in meer visible professors , yet none so called as peter describes pet. . . but onely members of the invisible church . ly . saith mr. bl. as honourable titles as these are frequently given in scripture , as shall be shewen , to visible professors , why should then these be limited to invisible members ? answ. . no titles so expresly noting elect persons as those pet. . . are given any where to mee● visible professors . . if they should be in any pl●ce given to the visible church , yet they are to be restrained to the elect onely ; as when a heap of corn is so called , whic● hath much chaff● or a fie●d of corn , which hath m●ch tares ; the denominatio● is from the better part , and is to be applied ●s verified onely of it . ly . saith mr ▪ bl. mr. t. in his letter made this text to be parallel with those texts , gal. . . tim. . ▪ pet. . . and those texts i have demonstrated to be meant of visible churches , to which mr. t. ●eplies nothing . answ. i do not find that in my letter i made pet. . ● . parallel with those texts , gal. . . tim. . . pet. . . but in my exercit ▪ § . i do alledge to ●rove that onel● bel●evers may be meant by a holy nation , as they are by a family or kindred , ephes. . . the housh●ld of faith , gal. . . the house of god , ●im . . a people , pet. . . now saith mr. bl. these texts i have demonstrated to be meant of visible churches . but he hath not demonstrated them to be meant of meer visi●le churches , or meer visible professors in them , who are not also of the invisible church ; and therefore i thought in my postscript , and think still i need make no further reply . mr. bl. considers my arguments to prove pet. . . meant of the invisible church . . i argue ( saith mr. t. ) from the terms , chosen generation , royal priesthood , an holy nation , a peculiar people , that is by christs death , tit. . . which cannot be affirmed of any other then elect and true beleevers ▪ ergo. answ. . such a way of arguing would not pass with mr. t ▪ in his adversary ; as peculiar people is tak●n in one place of scriptur● , so it must be taken in all places ; but in one place it is taken for the elect regenerate if this would ●old , much labour might be spared in finding out the various acceptation of words in sc●ipture . reply . m. bl. it seems hath such a spirit of divination , as to foresee what i would do in a contingent thing . but thi●●olly of his i impute to his satyrical vein ▪ which makes him that he can neither relate nor answer any t●ing of mine candidly . my argument was not drawn onely from the term [ peculiar people ] but also from the terms [ chosen generation , royal priesthood , an holy nation ] which with th● o●her term [ a peculiar people ] or as in the margin of our last translation [ a purchased people ] have been applied to the elect onely by these interpreters , whose words i here set down . beza analys . loci oppositum membram , electorum videlicet summam excelien●tiam describit , &c. piscat analys ▪ hortatur commemoratione duorum maximorum beneficiorum dei , electionis ad vitam aeternam , & vocationis efficacis . electionem indicat his verbis : vos autem estis genus electum , vocationem vero illis regale sacerdotium gens sancta , &c. dicson . vocantur autem regale sacerdotium quia sunt & regni christi & sacerdotii participes , imo per christum sacerdotes & reges constitut● vocantur , genus electum , quia deus eos prae aliis populis sibi adoptaverat . gens sancta , quia eos sibi dicaverat deus in vitae puritatem . populus in acquisitionem , quia deus eos redemerat , & sibi in thesaurum & haeredita●em asciverat , diodati . v. . a royal ] that is to say , a company of priests who are likewise kings , exod. . . priests to godward , to whom believers do yield spiritual worship . v. . and kings over the creatures , over which christ their head hath given them the dominion , which they had lost in adam , and hath made them fellows in the glory of his kingdome , matth. . . cor. . , . revel . . . & . , . & . . & . . & . . a peculiar ] which he hath purchased with a price and made his , by a sove●aign title to hold them for his own people . new annot v. . a chosen ] that is , whom god hath effectually called out of the would , see chap. . . deut. . . royal ] that is kings and priests , see exod. . . revel ▪ ● . . & . . kings , beeause of that power which they have , through christ , over their lust , see ph●l . . . priests , because separated to the service of god , see v. . holy nation ] see exod. . . & deut. . , &c. a peculiar people ] or a purchased people peculiar ] or a people for possession : that is , a people 〈…〉 god hath purchased to be his own . see exod. . . deut. . . & . . & . . psal. . . tit. . . act. . . ephes. . . thes. . . dr. john rainold apolog. ●hes . § . . nam prim● nomen populi sanctorum dan. . . ex daniele satis clarè indicat significari electos , pet. . . gentem sanctam & populum dei peculiarem , exo. . ▪ mal. . . tit. . . eximiè nuncupatos quandoquidem hic est populus cui soli regnum amplissimum in christo , & cum christo , ut ibidem dan. . . promissum est , ita da u●iri testantur sacrae iterae apoc. . . & . . & . . § . . ad designandum populum electum , pet ▪ . . qui deo cedit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in possessionem seu peculium . by which allegations it may be perceived , . that the interpretation i give is the common interpretation of most learned protestants : . that it is proved no by one title onely but by four titles , whereof not one of them can be applied in the sense peter useth them to any but the elect : . that this interpretation and application is confirmed not by one only place of scripture , but by many : . that though i alledged but one place , to wit tit. . . yet being so manifestly paralel , and so clearly pregnant for my purpose it was enough , and such as i would allow the like in any adversary for good proof , though ] do not take it that in all places the sense is proved by the alledging one scripture in the sense conceived , nor do i think it unnecessary to finde ou● the various acceptation of words in scripture . . saith mr. bl these termes and others equivolent to these are given to the israelites deut. . , . deut. . . deut. . . not as a church invisible , but as visible members . their qualifications are often a low , as their appellations by reason of their relation to god raise them high . and setting apart christs death , i would know how they came to this honour . answ. these termes are given in the places cited to israelites , yet that they are given to them as visible members , and not as a church invisible , or as i would say to the church visible of israel , in respect of and with limitation to the elect or members of the invisible church , as a field of corn in respect of the good grain , is not proved . yet if it were the titles pet. . . spoken of christians , cannot be verified of them but in a sense appropriate to the elect . they are no way a royal priesthood , but as priests that offer spiritual sacrifices to god , acceptable to god through jesus christ , v. . which none but the elect and true beleevers can do ; no other way royal but in that they are kings to god , r●ign ov●r sin , satan , &c. through christ , which none but the elect do ; a chosen generation , but by gods election to life eternal ; a holy nation , but by regeneration of the spirit ; a peculiar people , but by christs purchas● ; which can be verified of none but true believers , and elect persons . and to mr. bls. demand i answer , setting apart christs death , i know not how christ●ans should come to this honour which is expressed pet. . . . saith mr. bl. the gift of apostles , prophets , evangelists , pastours , and teachers , were the gift of christ , and purchase of his death . these are for constitution of ●●sible churches , visible members enjoy these priviledges in common with regenerate persons , to which more is already spoken . answ. though i finde apostles , prophets , evangelists , pastours , and teachers , termed ephes. . . the gift of christ ; yet i do not finde them said to be the purchase of christs death as such : nor do i know how they can be truely said to be the purchase christs death , as is meant , pet. . . tit. . . so as that every apostle , &c. should be redeemed from iniquity , be of the people of gods possession , to shew forth the vertues of god , &c. nor do i conceive to what purpose this is brought in here by mr. bl. except he mean that the titles pet. . . are given to the visible church in respect of the ministers , which is so frivolous that i am unwilling to imagine it of him . . saith mr. bl. mr. t. objects from that which is said of them , they are called by god , by his power and vertue into his marvellous light , and v. . that now had obtained mercy which they had not before ; which cannot be affirmed of any but true believ●rs and elect persons . answ. men brought into a visible church-state , are brought into a marvellous light . the seven golden candlesticks rev. . . had a marvellous light in their lamps , and yet in some of those there were onely a few names , that had not defiled their garments ; and this light is a mercy , the fruition of it a great mercy , psal. . , . yea , it is applied by the prophet , hos. ● . . ( whence the apostle gathers it ) unto the mercy enjoyed in a visible church communion , as is not denied by mr. t. himself . reply . where it is that i deny not that hos. . . is applied unto the mercy enjoyed in a visible church communion , i remember not , yet if i did grant it any where , i might understand it of saving mercy , proper to the elect , for that is mercy enjoyed in a visible church communion . but mr. bls. answer is not to the argument as by me urged ; for i did not form it thus , they who have marvellous light , who have obtained a great mercy are elect : but thus ; they who are called by gods power or vertue , which therefore they are to shew forth , out of darkness , into his marvellous light , which in time past were not a people , but are now the people of god : which had not obtained mercy , but now have obtained mercy , are the elect , which i confirmed from rom. . , , . where the same place of hos. . . is alledged and applied onely to the elect . but these things are said of those pet. . . ergo. which argument is confirmed by the words of piscator above cited , and of beza in the place cited , where he saith , simulque ne quis ambigat sit electus necne revocat nos apostolus ad vocationem efficacem , ex qua aeternum illud alioqui occultissimum electionis nostrae decretum certò intelligamu● , idque ex una dei gratuit● eligentis & vocantis misere●ordia . the new annot ▪ praises ] or vertues . that is , that we might glorifie god in our conversations , thereby shewing forth the abundant mercy and great power of god in calling us . isa. . . darkness ] that is ignorance , ch . . . whereby is meant our sinfull and miserable estate by nature , under which men are kept , through ignorance of the gospel , eph. ▪ . & . . col. ▪ . his marvellous ] hereby is meant our estate of grace , through the effectual calling of god by the knowledge of the truth . see cor. . . acts . . & . . called marvellous , because of the great mystery of godliness , which is revealed in the gospel ; and called his , because god revealeth it . dr. john rainold apol. thes· § . neque soluni è tenebris in admirabi●em dei lucem vocati , pet. . . sed & electi , pet. . . nuncupantur , atque genus electum , pet. ▪ . now though meer visible church-members may have marvellous light , and obtain great mercy , yet they cannot be said to be thus called , to be a people of god , and to obtain mercy , as peter there describes . . saith mr. bl. it is said that those persons did beleeve contradistinguished to them that were disobedient and stumbled at the word : but such are onely the elect , ergo. answ. so did all they that made shipwrack of the faith , tim. . . so did simon magus , act. . . so did the hearers compared to the rocky ground , luk. . . and whereas it is said , these believers are contradistinguished to them that were disobedient and stumbled at the word , it fully makes against him ; those disobedient ones , are those that disallow christ , as we see v. . that reject christ upon tender , that persist in judaism or gentilism . all others no● professed jews nor gentiles , are in that place beleevers ( and in all other scriptures respective to visible prerogatives ) which are all visible church-members . reply . it is true some●imes they are termed believers , who are meer visible professors , but here the believers are such as to whom christ is pretious , and are contradistinguished to them that were disobedient and stumbled ●t the word , unto which also they were appointed ( which mr. bl. did ill to leave out ) which shews they were reprobates appointed to perish , and consequently the contradistinguished believers are such as are saved , which cannot be said of them that ma●e shipwrack of the faith , or simon magus . which is confirmed from v. , . which mr. bl. confesseth is understood of the same men , v. . and under the same notion a● these , v. . the apostle brings his speech to no full period till v. . which reasons are confirmed by the note of diodat● on pet. . . it is that precious thing , namely , that precious foundation whereof isaiah speaks , which the text leads to , and is verified onely of the elect , to whom alone christ i● the precious foundation . and the other by the note of beza on v. . preterea particula 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 adjuncta & quod mox subjicit , vos autem genu● electum nonne manifestam antithesin ostendit rosorum ad d●cus & ad d●deeus conditorum , sicut credentes & immorigeros ante opposuerat ? nor is what is said , that they disallowed christ , v. . any thing against this ▪ that they that beleeved , v . were true beleevers and elect , any more then it follows all that are meer visible professors are termed beleevers ordained to eternal life , acts . . because they are contradistinguished to those who re●ected the word of god , and judged themselves unworthy of eternal life , v. ▪ . saith mr. bl. they are said to be built as living stones , &c which can agree to none , but elect persons and true beleevers . answ. that is left out in the quotation of this t●xt , which would wholly spoil the argument , and carry it on the other h●nd ; namely those words , to whom comming as unto a living stone . the apostle shews them the way , and points out the condition called for ; which being done , they are then built as living stones : and this implies that it was so with some , but not with others . here is that which is done by some and and neglected by others , and their happiness upon discharge of their duty ; so that if mr. t. his confidences were not far higher then his arguments , he might well sit down , and fairly acknowledge that these titles are giv●n to visible church-members . repl. mr. t. his confidences are strengthened by mr. bls. slight answers to his arguments . his argument was , they who are said to be built as living sto●es on christ the living stone , a spiritual house , a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to god by jesus christ , they are true beleevers and elect persons . but such are those v. . who are termed a holy nation , v. . ergo. the major is proved from this , that these things can agree to no other ; the minor from mr. bls. own words cited be●ore , that they are the same , v. . & . the apostle not bringing his speech to a full period till v. . thus dr. john rainold , the●● . § . ap●lies this passage onely to the elect . and mr. john geree , vindic. vind. calls it a misapplication of pet . . to the visible kingdome , which expresly note the spiritual house , ch . . pag. , new annot. on v. . lively stones ] that is , as having life from him . see v. . diodati annot . on pet. . . lively stones ] namely participating of that foresaid life of christ ; and therefore opposite to the dead stones of the material temple . are built up ] or be ye built up . an holy priesthood ] that is to say , a multitude and company of priests . by jesus ] whose perfect righteousness and intercession gaineth all gods grace to beleevers and to their works . now what saith mr. bl to this ? he neither denies major nor minor ; but tels us , that those words , to whom comming as unto a living-stone , if they had been cited would wholly spoil the argument , and carry it on the other hand ; which is very strange to me , who find those words thus intepreted by the new ●nnot . v. . comming ] that is by faith ▪ see joh. . . & . , , . heb. . . by diodati , v. . to whom ] that is to say , being united to the lord jesus , and made his members by a lively faith , that they should prove that the titles pet . . are given to meer visib●e church members , as i● any meer visible church-member did come to christ as a living stone by a lively faith , and were a living stone , built up a spiritual house , &c. but let 's view mr. ils reasons . . the apostle shews them the way , and points out the condition called for ; which being done , they are then built as living stones . but . it is plain that the apostle speaks of them as built up already , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ye are built up , as our translation best reads it , not as of a thing to be done : and this is confirmed in that v . they are said to ●e new born babes , ver . . to have tasted how gracious the lord is , ch . . . to have purified their souls , v. . to be born again . and for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it may be as well read unto whom being comen , as unto whom comming . and so piscal . in anal . loci . argumentorum unum est a pari , videl a vocationis initio , quod significat qu●m ait , eos jam ad dominum accessisse , id est fide eum recepisse , atque it a super eum adificari caepisse , and therefore notes more then the way and condition called for , even the thing already begun . . but had the apostle shewed onely the way and coodition called for , what had this been to prove that the titles , v. . are given to meer visible church members ? sure nothing at all ; for were they comen , or comming , or to come , their comming must have been by faith , and they had not been living stones , built up a spiritual house , nor a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to god by jesus christ , without a lively faith and election : and therefore neither mr. ils. concei● being granted , i● it proved that any oth●r then elect and true beleevers are meant pet. . ● . . saith mr. bl. and this implies that it was so with some , who did their duty and were happy , but not with others who neglected . but . how those words , unto whom comming as unto a living stone , implies the neglect of duty , i am yet to learn : if they did note a condition , yet they could imply onely a possibility of neglect , not that some did neglect . . if some did neglect , yet this is nothing to prove that ver . . which is said onely of those that did come and so were happy , the titles are given to meer visible professors . the rest of the chapter is to vindicate himself from what i said , that i ha●dly beleeve any approved writer joyns with him in his interpretation . to which he saith , . it is not like my confidence , who dare affront the body of protestant divines 〈◊〉 tenents that ex professo they have handled against the papists . answ. that i do so is not shewed ; that i dare do so when i have truth on my side , is no vice . if mr. bls. reasons had been good , his singularity had not been culpable . . he would insinuate that in my interpretation i follow escius and gerhard , whom i neither have , nor ever made use of about this text . . that he hath mr. ball , whose book i now have not , and his words cited by mr. bl. seem not to speak any thing of pet. . . . . that a lapide , is wholly for him , to whom he saith i use to be beholding . but i think the words of a lapide cited by him , are not clear for him ; nor do i use to be beholding to a lapide , he being an author i have not , nor do i remember that i have made use of him but in the first part of the review , § . onely about cor. , . . that gerhard mentions others that understand pet. . . of common and general ele●●ion . but whether approved writers or not , he doth not say , so that my words stand good , notwithstanding mr. bls. vindication of himself , his injurious insinuations of me , and his futile arguments and answers about pet. . . mr. bl. ch . . proceeds in proving . that the covenant of grace in gospel times admits christians in profession , in a state of unregeneration , and is not limited in the bounds of it to the elect regenerate ▪ and . he argues from four terms , beleevers , saints , disciples , christans , which he proves out of scripture to be g●ven to persons not elect ( which is not denied ) and they imply a covenant undeniably : and this he proves from my confession , that the titles men ioned by peter pet . . from moses , argue a people in covenant , and therefore i am so shie to confess them to belong to visible professors : but those titles are as high as these , and as undeniably implying a covenant are given to visible professors ; those then even according to me are on this account in covenant with god. answ. mr. bl. doth but mock the reader , and abuse me , by speaking of a confession which he doth not shew , and by assigning a reason of my not confessing the titles , pet. . . not to belong to visible professors , which is never given by me , but imagined by himself . as i said before , so i say again , though i hold those who are ( as pet. . . the the terms are used ) a chosen generation , a royal priesthood , a holy nation , a peculiar people , are in covenant with god , as having gods covenant of evangelical grace made with them ; yet i deny that the terms imply a covenant . and as for the other four terms mr. bl ▪ alledgeth to prove meer visible professors being in covenant , he doth in like manner mock his reader , . not telling what covenant those terms imply , . nor how they imply it , . nor on whose part they imply it , whether on the persons part thus intituled , or on gods , which is the onely thing in question , whether god have made his covynant of grace in gospel times with any non-elect ? which sure those terms imply not , sith they imply either the act ; as beleevers and disciples ; or the state , as saints and christians , of the persons intitled ; not any act of god , covenanting or promising to them gospel grace . . the proof likewise from my confession ( if it were so ) is as vain : for the terms christ , holy angels , onely begotten son of god &c ▪ are as high as those pet. . . yet they do not imply a covenant by my confession ; and therefore i may well deny his inference to be my confession , though i should have yeelded that which he saith i confess to be mine . . mr. bl. argues from some absurdities . . this restriction of the covenant makes an utter confusion between the covenant it self and the conditions of it ; or the covenant it self , and the duties required in it ; between our entrance into covenant , and our observation of it , or walking up in faithfulness to it : for there are that enter and keep covenant with god , psal. . , . psal. . , . and there are those that break covenant , psal. . , . jer. . , , . levit. . ● . isa. . . now according to this opinion , regeneration is our entrance into covenant , and regeneration is our keeping of covenant ; before regeneration we make no covenant , after regeneration we break no covenant , there is no such thing as covenant breaking : all this makes an utter confusion in the covenant . answ. they that hold , that the covenant of grace in gospel times is limited to the elect regenerate , do not think either regeneration our entrance into covenant , or our keeping of covenant , or that before regeneration we make no covenant , or after regeneration we break no covenant , or that there is no such thing as covenant breaking ; all these are mr. bls , fictions , and so is his imputation of making an utter confusion in the covenant . but this they hold , that god enters none into his covenant of evangelical grace but regenerate persons , and that they do all keep covenant ; and that though many before regeneration make covenant with god , and break that covenant they make , and so there is covenant breaking on their part , yet that god keeps the covenant of evangelical grace with those he makes it , and that no reg●nerate person doth so break it as to be ever cast out of gods covenant . and for mr. bls. texts , they are impertinent to prove that after regeneration any do break the covenant of evangelical grace god hath made . for psal. . , . levit. . . isa , . . do speak expresly of breaking the covenant of the law made with the people of israel in mount sinai , which is another covenant then the new or evangelical covenant , heb. . , . but our question is of the covenant of grace in gospel times ▪ and jer. . , , ▪ is ridiculously alledged , sith it speaks not of the covenant evangelical , but of the particular covenant which zedekiah and the princes of judah made to let their hebrew servants go free , which they brake contrary to the law. yet to shew mr. bls. futility in arguing there is no consequence in this reasoning . in mens covenants there are that enter covenant and keep it , and others that in like manner do enter into covenant and not keep it , and so men enter into covenant with god , and some keep it , and some not , therefore they that hold that god makes his covenant of evangelical grace onely with the elect regenerate , do confound the covenant it self and the conditions of it , or the duties required in it , or the entrance into covenant and our observation of it , or walking up in faithfulness to it . for the distinction remains still between all these , though they be eonjoyned in the same persons , as heat and light are distinct though together in flame , and justification and sanctification though conjoyned in the same persons . yea , sith mr. bl. holds some that enter into covenant are stedfast in it , he makes according to his own superficial arguing the same confusion we do , and so falls into the same imagined absurdity . the d . absurdity mr. bl. would fasten on the tenet that the covenant of grace in gospel times is limited to the elect , is ; that then there is no such thing as an hypocrite in the world , as in reference towards god ; for an hypocrite is one that personates the man that he is not , an hypocrite respective to religion and in scripture use of the phrase , is one that pretends for god , and is not gods ; now according to this opinion , that onely regenerate men are in covenant , there is no such thing as an hypocrite , no such sin as hypocrisi ; where the gospel is preached , god makes tender of himself in covenant , and in case none but regenerate persons enter covenant , then onely they take upon them the persons of people in relation to him . answ. if mr. bl. and other paedobaptists had any will to deal ●onestly , as men that sought to clear truth , and not to pervert read●rs , they would , being so often particularly in my postscript § . admonished , distinguish of being in covenant by their own a●t of covenanting , and g●ds act of promising . i never den●ed , that in respect of their own act of ●ovenanting , mere visible professors may b● said to be in covenant with god , but denied that in resp●ct of gods act of promising ( which alone was in question , sith the question being of infants , they cannot be said to be in covenant with god by their ow● act of covenanting , but only by gods act of promising ) any other ●hen elect persons are in covenant with god ▪ now i grant it , that of them to whom the gospel-covenant is made by god , there is none an hypocrite ; but there be hypocrites of those that enter into covenant with god ; that is , of those that promise to be gods and are no● ; to whom , though god tenders himself in covenant , yet he makes no covenant or promise to them of evangelical grace , and therfore notwithstanding this imagined absurdity , yet the position is true , that the covenant of grace in gospel times , as made by god to men , is limited to the elect . the d. absurdity is , then no minister in any church may baptize any person , for none can now discern inf●llibly whether a person be regenerate , and mr. bl. findes christ giving charge to disciple nations , and to baptise them , but findes him not giving commission , that when in the judgement of charity men have cause to conceive them to be disciples , then to baptize them . the apostles staid not for observation of those signes , that might in a well-grounded chari●y perswade that they were regenerate persons . and these that fix it here , ●oo ordinarily make interests the chief ground to carry their charity to a more favourable construction . they that are most like to make a party with them , or drive on interest their way , must be ●udged persons meet for baptism ; of this in a shor● time we have large experience . those that gather up churches , and initiate them by baptism ( the way of the apostles i confess , in case that they would make good that they have to deal with heathens , and therefore a way of more colour then theirs , that set up new churches , and retain the old baptism ) we see what manner of saints are received among them , such that civil persons ( respective to sobriety , chastity , or upright dealing with men ) cannot without stain of their reputation ▪ make their companions . answ. paedobaptists do usually plead , that infants are in the covenant of grace , therefore they are to be baptized . the antecedent can be meant of being in the covenant of grace no otherwise then by gods act of promise , to be the god of a believers seed ; therefore they make the being in covenant by gods act of promise to be a persons god , the rule of baptizing . now i assert , that god hath not promised to be a god to any man or his seed in respect of evangelical grace , but the elect . therefore this absurdity is justly charged on the paedobaptists , that according to their hypotheses , no minister can baptize any infant in fait● . fo● he must ●aptize according to them , onely those infants that are in covenant , and whom he knowes to be in covenant ; but those infants onely are in covenant who are elect , and no minister can know which infant is elect , or in covenant with god , which not , all infants are not , no not of believers , not all abrahams , or isaacs , rom. . , , , , , , , . therefore according to this rule no paedobaptist can baptize any infant in faith , and a judgement of charity mr. m. mr. bl. and others agree and that according to truth , is not it we are to baptize by . so that this absurdity doth unavoidably follow on paedobaptists opinion , which mr. bl. endeavours , but in vain , to fasten on us , who do often disclaim baptizing persons upon their being in covenant with god by his act of promise to be their god , as our rule ; and do continually assert our baptizing persons , because disciples by profession , and by reason of their own covenanting to follow christ ( which mr. bl. confesseth to be according to christs commission , and the apostles way in dealing with heathens ) and therefore the absurdity follows not our opinion , but the paedobaptists , who can baptize no infant by their rule , because they cannot know any infant whom they are to baptize to be in the covenant of grace . as for mr. bls. confession , that our practise is the way of the apostles in case we would make good that we have to deal with heathens , i wonder mr. bl. a learned man , should require us to make good that which of it self is so manifest . for sure we have to deal with heathens or with jews , si●h all the men in the world are either heathens , that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the nations , or jewes : but me thinks he should not say we have to de●l wi●h jews , therefore we have to deal with heathens , and consequently our practise is the way of the apostles , by mr. bls. own confession . to confine the term [ heathens ] onely to them that are not christians in name , is indeed according to the vulgar speech , but besides the scripture use , which mr. bl. me thinks in his writing should have followed . but if mr. bl. mean i● in the vulgar sense , it is easie to make it good that no englishman or his child is a christian till he be made a disciple by preaching the gospel ▪ sith to be a disciple of chr●st and a christian are terms of the same sense , acts. . . yet in b●ptizing by christs commission and the apostles practise , th●re is no difference made between jews and heathens , bo●h are to be baptized upon their believing , mark. . . neither the one nor the other were , or were to be bap●ized by the apostles , without their own personal profession of faith . our way then by mr. bls. own confession is the way of the apostles . his co●fession also is true , that our way is of more colour then theirs that set up new churches , and retain the old baptism , for acknowledging them church members at bap●ism , and not admitting them as church-members though without scandal , is after their own principles to contradict themselves ; and to set up churches in a congregational way , disclaiming the national and parochial , and yet to admit infants to baptism by vertue of circumcision , and abrahams covenant and church-gathering , what is it but to dissert that in practise which they plead in dispute , and to make the frame of the national church jewish , the rule of the christ an church catholick nor have presbyterians any colour for their reformation of baptism or the lords supper , if they will stick to their allegations of taking a rule for baptism from circumcision , or of the lords supper from the passeover ; for , to them all sorts whether ignorant or scandalous were admitted ; and if we must retain whom the jewish church re●ained as visible church-members , there will be no ecclesiastical juridica● excommunicat●on for moral miscarriages , there being 〈◊〉 ●uch among them . as for what mr. bl. chargeth the baptized c●urches with , of the unholin●ss of their members ▪ though i can say litt●e of those near mr. bl. ( if there be an ) yet i am able to say of some and mr. baxter himself hath in print said somewhat of one of the churches , which might refute this calumny , and i think there are many able to testifie of the holy conversation of many of the churches of baptized persons , however mr. baxter imagines they in the end prove wicked . however , we do neither in practise nor opinion maintain such impure churches of ignorant and vicious persons as mr. bl. vindic. faed . ch . . doth , and presbyterians commonly do : nor is it likely , the worst of the baptized churches should be worse then the ordinary sort of the paedobaptists churches of mr. bls. way . chap . mr. bl. answers to some objections against his assertion . . that regenerate persons onely are in new testament times honoured with the name of the people of god , they therefore onely are in covenant ▪ to which he answers , . that there are terms equivalent , beleevers , saints , disciples , and christians , which are given to the unregenerate . to which i reply , that though this argument be not mine , yet it may be said , that the term gods people doth rather imply being in covenant wi●h god then the other terms . but i think the argument not cogent , sith the term [ my people ] doth not in the force of the word necessarily import a covenant of god , and men ma● be conceived his people by election , or purchase , without a covenant , and therefore own it not . ly . saith he , it is not often that that phrase is found in new testament scriptures , with such restriction onely to regenerate persons . he denies not tit. . . is taken for a people separate by grace out of the state of nature : but he is not resolved whether revel . . . serve to purpose , it being in dispute whether to be fulfilled on earth or in heaven ; if on earth , then it sets out a singular glory in the church through ordinances in purity , yet with a mixture of close hypocrites . ●nd for christs personal reign on earth , that he lets go as the opinion of others , of a considerable part of whom he is not very well conceited it seems . answ. his not denying tit. . . to 〈◊〉 pregnant ▪ and being alledged by me as the parallel place to pet. . . confirms m● restriction of the titles there used ●o ●he regenerate . and ●e thin●s the promises , revel . . , . that god would be their god with them , that he would wipe away all tears from their eys , there should be no more death , nor crying , nor labour , should be sufficient to prove the people of god there meant to be onely the regenerate . and me thinks matth. . . & . ▪ luke . , , . & . . & . . acts . . & . . rom. . . & . ▪ & . ▪ cor. . . heb. , ▪ & . . pet. . . revel . . . the term [ my people or gods people ] should be restrained to the elect . ly . saith he , my people , or people of god , is us●d more frequently in the n. t. without restriction to the elect regenerate . he alledgeth three places , cor. . ● . which with him is plain quoted from levit. . . where it is a national promise , to be understood of gods visible abode in ordinances , being tendered to those that were over bu●●e w●●h idols , from which he disswades with this argument , that they were the temple of the lord , separate of god for his worship and servic● , and the promise is no more then is made good to visible churches , revel . . . whereof some members were not regenerate . answ. to dwell in them to walk in them , to be their god , and they to be his people , the temple of the living god , cor . . whom he receives , to whom he is a father , and they his sons and daughters , cannot be meant of any other then the elect : for they onely are the temple of god in which he dwels , who have h●s ●pirit , cor. , . & . . ( a bare separation by outward cal●ing to his worship & service is not enough ) which is the most fo●cible argument to diss●ade fr●m medling with idols . however it be levit. . . here i● is not a national promise , but a promise to particula● persons , separate from the rest of the nation , v. . nor can it be understood of gods visible abode in ordinances , but in persons who were holy ; nor is it made to every visible church , in r●spect of every visible member : nor is the promise of chrst , walking , revel . . . so much as this of gods dwelling in them . the d . he alledgeth is rom. . . which is to be understood no otherwise , where the call of the ten tribes , from hos , ▪ . & . . is applied to the call of the gentiles into a church state and condition . and to the objection from rom. . . he saith , god sets up visible ●rd●nances , and calls to a church state as is there prophesied , that he may there work to himself a people of invisible relation , that thereby he may make them vessels of mercy , having a sore prepared them to glory . answ. the call , rom . . is not as mr. bl seems to conceive , an outwa●d refusable calling into a visible church state by visible ordinances ; but as v. , , , , . calling is effectual calling , which gives being to the called , and is never refused , but proper to t●e elect onel● : which is apparent from v. . where he saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whom also , which can have reference to ●one but vessels of mercy mentioned v. ▪ who are also sons of the living god , v. . wh●ch being ●rged by me ●n my postscript . sect . . and not refelled , stands as a firm 〈◊〉 that the people of god there are onely elect ones , or as mr. bl. speaks , a ●eople of invisible relation , vessels of mercy ●so●e prepared to glory . the d he all●dgeth is revel . . . where all professors of faith are included in that exhortation , and so all ministers are to press it ▪ b●t though it wer● the duty of all , yea of them that were n●t professors of f●ith , to qui● babylon ; yet the invitation is a fruit of gods special care by a voice from heaven , and therefore is more ●hen an exhortation to a commoh duty , to wit , a special effectual call , whereby gods people , that is his elect ones ; shall be brought out of babylon as lot out of sodom , and is to be conceived of the elect onely , not of hypocritical professors of faith . so that mr. bl. hath not brought one text out of the new testament , in which [ god 's people ] is applied to meer visible professors ; and yet if these had served his turn , his assertion had been false , as is shewed by the number of places wherein [ god 's people ] is limited to the elect . another objection is out of jer. . , , . which he saith is set up against all new testament light , to prove that none must be of the called of god in●o covenant , for fruition of church priviledges , but those ●hat are r●generate : men in old testament covenan● broke covenant , as is there exprest ; men in th● new covenant shall keep covenanant , and these are onely the elect and regenerate . answ. the text joyned with heb . , , , , . proves that god makes his new covenant with none but those who keep it , who are the elect onely . i prod●ce it not to prove ( as mr. bl. suggests of some ) that none must be of the called of god into covenant , for fruition of church priviledges , but those that are regenerate ; nor to prove ●hat none shall enter covenant and transgress it ▪ that the covenant that now is , is not in any possibility to be transgrest : but to prove , that no●e to whom god makes his new covenant do break it ; which the author to the hebrews doth affirm , in that he differences this from the former covenant , that the former was faulty , or occasioned god to complain that it was broken ; but this is such as that to take away occasion of complaint for breach of it , god makes provision by better promises , that it shall not be broken by those to whom it is made . nor doth it hence follow , as mr. bl. speaks ( this being the characteristical difference ) that as none in new testament times enter covenant , but they keep coven●nt ; so none in old testament times were in covenant , but did transgress it : for we do not say as he perverts the position , that none in new testament times enter covenant but they keep covenant ; we know many have by their profession and baptism entred into covenant , and have no● kept i● : but this we say , that god mak●s with none his new covenant , whether in new testament times , or in old testament times , but they do keep it ; and that this is the characteristi●al difference between the old and new covenant ( not old and new testament times ) which are in the epistle to the romanes and galatians called the law and the promises ; that the one might be and was broken , yet the other is and shall be kept by those to whom it is made , because of gods undertaking to write his laws in their hearts . as for an outward covenant made by god distinct from these and yet in force , it is mr. bls. figment as mr. b. hath proved in his apol. against mr. bl. pag. , , ● , &c. as for the answers , . that the covenant , jer. ● . , , . is not a covenant ●roperly so called , it is refuted before , sect. . as i remember . . that it is not the whole of the covenant . but if it be but a part , it is made onely to the elect , the other part whatever it be being made to none other . . if the new covenant be another covenant , then there must be two distinct gospel covenants . but this is said upon ●he mi●take refuted sect. . that the covenant at mount sinai with the jews was the gospel covenant . i have again viewed pag. , , . of mr. bls. answer to my letter , and do not find any explication of the promises jer. . , , . which may sh●w that the promises there are made to any but the elect ; nor do i find an explication of them , whereby to know how he would have them understood , but of the term [ new covenant ] which he would have understood as if it were meant onely of a clearer explication of the old covenant not well understood before , as joh. . . the new commandment is a clearer explication then was formerly . but neither is true : for the new commandment joh. . . is not so called from a new explication , but a new motive , his own example , as the very words shew : and the new covenant is so called , jer. . , , . not from a clearer explic●tion , bu● better promises , heb. . . and i still profess , that i find not that mr. bls. answer is quit from enervating the argument for effectual grace and perseverance in it , sith he makes the covenant to be to the non-elect ; nor doth he demonstrate , that i cannot bui●d effectual grace and perseverance on that text , making it a distinct covenant from the first , without the o●erthrow of effectual g●ace and perseverance in old testam●nt times . thus much for answer to those three chapters of mr. bl. he that would see more of mr. bls. mistakes about the covenant , may read mr. baxters book afore quoted . sect . xlvii . mr. bls. vindic. f●ed . ch. . concerning the stating the question of the birth-priviledge of the issue of ●elievers , is examined ; and his objections against my stating it removed . mr. bl. ch . . complains , that my confusion hath mudded the way , that my mixture brings a cloud upon all ] he might as well say light is darkness . he saith , i undertake a full comment upon these words of the covenant , gen. . . exercit. pag. . in which the reader will not find this undertaking . he sets down my distinction of abrahams seed exercit pag. . and then saith , here by the way mr. t. mistakes himself . . in casting ishmael out of covenant in that manner , that all the time of his circumcision he had not title to it , to that end that he might make ( were it possible ) the covenant and the seal distinct of themselves , without any relation one to the other , conceiving some to be sealed that were never in covenant , and some to be in covenant that were never sealed . ishmael was in covenant , as was esau at his circumcision , and his circumcision doth w●tness i● , gen. . . answ. i do assert , that ●he covenant gen. ▪ was not made with ishmael , for none of the promi●es there did belong to him , and i have further prov●d it f●o● v. ● , . heb. . , &c. though not to make the covenant and seal distinct of themselve● , without any relation one to another ; yet conceiving some were to be circumcised that were never in covenant , and viceversa . but mr. bl. thinks it proved that ishmael was in covenant , because he was circumcised , for it is said , circumcision shall be a token of the covenant between me and you , gen. . . to which ● said , the covenant was between god and abraham and his seed in their generations , v. . and this seed is declared exc●●sively of ishmael to be ●saac , v. ● . and them that sh●uld be of him , gen. . . rom. . , . though every persons circumcision af●er gods appointment was a token of the covenant god made , yet not of the covenant god made between himself and the circumcised : for the covenant of god with abraham was not to ev●ry circumcis●d stranger , nor to every circumcised child , but between god , and ●braham and ●is seed in their generations which should be called in ●saac , and accordingly the covenant to be kept , v. ● . is said to be between god and abraham and sarah , and abrahams seed . ●areus com . on gen. . . two heads there are of the covenant , god and abraham ; on abrahams part also his seed or posterity are comprehended . but the seed is understood according to the limitations of scripture here , and in other places , gen. . . & ● . . rom. . , . what therefore is here added in their generations ▪ extends not the covenant to ishmaelites , idumaeans , and keturaeans . there is no truth in that which mr. bl. adds , men in covenant were the ●dequate subject of circumcision , and are of baptism . for the females and the males of the seventh day were in coven●nt , yet not subjects of circumcision ; many proselytes and others were the subjects of circumcision , though not in covenant . nor is the reason why either this or that person was to be circumcised , and is now to be baptized his being in covenant , but the command of god concerning them whether they be in covenant with god or no ▪ in that sense in which paedobaptists mean when they say infants are in covenant , because of gods covenant made to them without th●ir own covenant , as hath been often proved . the casting out which i observe apol. . of ishmael doth not sufficiently argue ( as mr. bl. saith ) that ishmael was once in covenant , but that he was once in abrahams house , from whence he was cast out . ly . saith mr. bl. mr. t. does i●l in laying upon ishmael the brand of bastardy , as though he were a son of whoredomes to faithful abraham ; co●cubines in scripture have the name of wives , and their seed was ever accounted legitimate ▪ neither will this serve his p●rpose at all to argue ishmael out of covenant . answ. i ter●ed ishmael abrahams base natural seed , but not to argue him out of covenant , nor b● terming him base did i term him the son of whoredomes , but of an unlawful bed . and though concubines in scripture have the name of wives , and whores are usually called those that are common to more then one , and the sons of concubines counted le●itimate in respect of inheritances , yet be that should say tha● concubines were lawful wives , and their children legitimate before god , must maintain the lawfulness of concubinate and polygamy in the p●triarchs , which our lord christs words g●insay , matth. . , , . m. bl. having recited my words exercit. pag. . concerning the different seed of abraham , and the different manner of gods promise to be god ●o them , he 〈◊〉 after his calumniating manner infers : so that it evidently appears , that he casts out all the natural seed of abraham ( legitimate or base , as he cals them , inheriting or not inheriting ) from any ●itle to that covenant ▪ save in domestick and political benefits . which if true , i should cast ou● isaac , jacob , david , christ jesus himself from any title to ●hat covenant gen. . . save in domestick and political benefits : which is so gross a thing , and so manifest a falshood , that i wonder mr. bl. hath the face to write such a thing of me , and to pervert my words so palpably ; but that i perceive he cares little how he hazards his own credit , so he may impair mine . i say , that god promiseth he will be a god to christ , impartin● in him blessing to all nations of the earth , to the spiritual seed of ●braham in evangelical benefits ; to the natural seed inheriting in domestick and political benefits . how doth it sufficiently appear hence , that i cast out all the natural seed of abraham from any title to th●t covenant , save in domestick and political b●nefits ? doth it follow , that because i assigne ev●ngelical benefits to abrahams spiritua● seed , i deny any of his natural seed to be his spiritual ? to this loud calu●ny , he adjoyns his own gross p●sition in these words . here i shall undertake a position in full opposition , i will establish my covenant , &c. gen. . . in their fullest latitude as they are there spoken ▪ in the largest comprehension ( which according to scripture they can be taken ) are entred with all the natural seed of abraham , by isaac and jacob. which if true , then god breaks his word if he be not a god in spiritual , and all other bl●ssings comprehended under the phrase , will be a god to thee and thy seed ; to judas , ahab , the pharises that said christ ca●● out devils by the help of devils , and so blasphemed the holy ghost , the jews that rejected christ , in effectual calling , justifying , raising to eternal life , which the scripture comprehends under that phrase of being a god to a person , rom. . . gal. . . luk. . , . he saith , the confirmation of this position , is a matter of ease if any . which i acknowledge , if by [ confirmation ] be meant such as mr. bl. in his dictating and flirting fashion useth to ●onfirm things ; not distinctly opening terms , nor the meaning of the texts he brings , nor shewing by any logical deduction the pertinency of them to prove his position . but i shall as soon expe●● a new world in the moon proved as that position , by any true logical deduction out of scripture . he talks of my trifling circumstances in my examen , and foul miscarriage in my stating of the question , even in that whic● was most necessary according to the rule of all logicians , that in ever consideration of things , distinction of ambiguous terms should be used 〈◊〉 afore any definition , proposition , proof , or answer be made , as keche●m . syst . log. l. . sect post . c . out of cicero , boetius , aristotle , galen , &c shews ; and for endeavouring to bring mr. m. to state his ●wn proposition without ambiguity , that i might know what to de●y or gra●t , which mr. bl. terms ineptly my soul miscarriage in my stating of the question , when i stated not a question at all , but onely so●ght to finde out how mr , m. meant his d . concl . in his sermon . but mr. bl. will have his position limited . an● he speaks thus . . we take not in all the natural seed of abraham , as the position plainly expresseth , but the seed by promise , which i understand not of the elect or regenerate seed : but of that seed which g●d by miracle according to promise ) gave to abraham by ●arah , when she was past years of child bearing . answ. . if he take not in all the natural seed of abraham , as comprehended in that promise gen. . . but the seed by promise , then the covenant gen. . . was never made to ishmael , which was signified by circumcision , and consequently though ishmael was circumcised , yet he was never in covenant , and mr. bls position is false , men in covenan● are the adequate subject of circumcision . . if he understand not by [ the children of the promise rom. . . ] the elect or regenerate , then he doth not understand as the apostle doth , who declares v. that the seed v. . who are children of the promise v ▪ . are such as are by gods calling according to gods purpose of election , v. . whom ●e loveth , v. , hath mercy and compassion on , v. . and deserts the contra●●monstrants , as i have often shewed in this and other writings . . if he understand the seed by promise onely of that which god by miracle ( according to promise ) gave to abraham by sarah , when she was past years of child-●earing , then h● asserts the covenant gen. . . in the fullest latitude to be made wholly to isaac , no to jacob , or any other , for no other but isaac individually taken was that seed which god by miracle ( according to promise ) gave to abraham by sarah , when she was past years of child bearing . mr. bl. adds , the natural posterity ( which was the birth by promise ) we onely understand ; and so the apostle explains it ▪ rom. . , . neither , &c. answ. if mr. bl. understand onely gen. . . by [ the seed of abraham ] the natural posterity ( which was the birth by promise ) and that according to mr. bls. description in the words immediately precedent is no other then individual isaac , then he takes in no other then ●saac into the covenant gen. ▪ . as meant by abrahams seed . now the a●ostle is so far from explaining it so , that the contrary is most true ▪ fo● . the apostle expresly saith , that is they which are the children of the flesh , that is begotten by m●er natural generation of abraham which is all one with the natural posterity of ab●aham , thes● are not the children of god , that is those to whom the promise is made gen. . . as the contradistinction to the children of the promise in the latter part of v ▪ . shews ▪ and that by [ children of the flesh ] are me●nt meer natural posterity appears in that v. . which is explained v. . the term [ the seed of abraham ] is put as equipolent to [ children of the flesh , ] which understood any otherwise then thus [ ●he seed or children of abraham by meer n●tural generation ] should exclude isaac also , who was the natural posterity of abraham , and so the seed of abraham , but not by meer natural generation . . if the apostle had explained the seed , gen. . . of the natural posterity onely , which was the birth by promise ( which according to mr. bls. description can be no more then individual isaac ) then he had said rom. . . but the child of the promise is counted for the seed , not as he doth in the plural number , the children of the promise , ( by whom are meant all elect persons , who are by su●ernatural calling counted by god for the seed of the gentiles as well as the jews , as he affirms v. . ) are counted for the seed to whom the promise gen. . . is made . but mr. bl. ●oes on thus . where children of god is taken in the same latitude as adoption , v. . comprizing all the visible body of the jews , as it is also taken , deut. . . answ. ●he right reading ( as i have before proved ) of rom. . should be [ whose was the adoption ] and this is meant indeed of the visible body of israelites in former generations , excluding the pres●nt ; nor do i deny it to be so me●nt , deut. . . but not so as either then or at any time comprizing every particular jew , but as mr. bl. himself rightly explaineth such passages in his answer to my letter pag. . ( though 〈◊〉 applied to rom. . , . ) the denomination being a praestantiori parte , as we call it , a heap of corn , where yet there is a mixture of chaff , and a corn field , where there is a mixture of tares and other weeds ; and as the apostle ( writing to the church of the thessalonians ) saith , knowing brethren your election of god , and yet i suppose you do not believe that each particular man was a vessel of glory . but i go after mr. bl. onely , saith he , those that are born by promise are included , and so all the sons of ishmael and keturah , though the●r parents were once in covenant , are by gods special command shut ou● . answ . there are no more born by promise according to mr. bls. description but isaac , and so no more according to him included ; not jacob , mu●h less all the visible body of the jews . . if those that are born by promise onely are included , then ishmael , and the sons of keturah who were not born by pro●ise , are not in●luded in the covenant gen. . . then they were never in cov●nant , for none were never in that covenant , who were not included in the promise . . the scripture doth not mention out●shmael ●shmael out of the covenant he was once in , but to 〈◊〉 out of abrahams hous● . nor do i see in what sense abraham cou●d be said to cast him out of covenant . surely not by revoking 〈◊〉 promise , that were little less then blasphemy , to ascribe to abraham the evacuating of gods word : not by uncircumcising him for 〈◊〉 was any such thing done , though abraham obeyed god , nor perhaps could be done . what other way he might shut him out of ●ovenant i do not understand . . if ishmael were once in the coven●nt , as it comprehends the promise of evangelical grace , then ●od promised to be his god in respect of regeneration justification , adoption , sanctification and raising up to eternal li●e , and he was in that esta●e , and if h● were shut out again , ●hen a man may be in the covenant of evangelical grace and shut out again , which is contrary to the very end of the new c●venant , as it is expressed heb. . , , , , . and infers falling away from gospel grace . mr. bl. proceeds thus . neither are all these included ; for as god cast off ishmael and his seed , so also esau and his posterity ; therefore the apostle having brought the former distinction of seeds , rests not there but adds v. , , , . and ther●fore the denomination of the seed is in jacob , sirnamed israel ; therefore when the head , or if you will , root of the covenant is mentioned ; usually in scripture it is not barely abraham , but abraham and isaac , to exclude all abrahams seed of any other line ; not barely abraham and isaac , but abraham , isaac , and jacob. the natural seed of jacob then ( not according to ours , but gods own limits ) is included in that covenant in the full latitude and extent of it . answ. . the terms head or root of the covenant , are not scripture expressions . i finde gal. . . that to abraham and his seed were the promises made , and rom. . . if the root be holy so are the branches , v. . thou bearest not the root , ●ut the root thee ; but this root is i conceive , no other then abraham , who is ●ot termed either head or root of the covenant singly or jointly , but of the olive or branches in respect of their propagation from him partly as a natural father , and a spiritual father in respect of is●aelite believers , an● partly as a spiritual father onely in respect of gentile believers . but if any be to be termed the head and root of the covenant , i think it is most fit to give that title to christ , the surety and mediatour , heb. . . & . . to whom the promises were made , gal. . , . . when god is stiled the god of abraham , i●saac , and jacob , that it is to exclude all abrahams seed of any other line , and to say that god cast off esau and his posterity from the covenant , is more then the apostle saith , or is according to truth . for the apostle doth onely say , that therefore the oracle was delivered concerning esau and jacob , and the words of the prophet concerning jacob and esau are alledged , that he might shew that god confined not his covenant to abrahams natural posterity , nor included them all ; not to shew that he cast off or excluded all abrahams seed of any other line then ●saac and jacob from the covenant . for then jo● , jethro , and all other proselytes of abrahams seed by keturah , of esau●s posterity had been excluded from the covenant of grace in christ , which is contrary to scripture ; and in like sort , all the gentile from ishmael , keturah , esau , ●ad been excluded from being called christian believers . for none are called by god who are excluded out of the covenant of grace . . that the natural seed of jacob is included in that covenant . gen. . . in the full latitude and ex●ent of it , as it comprehends a promise of evangelical grace , is so far from being the apostles determination , tha● he resolves in the contrary in those words rom. . . all are not israel , that are of israel . secondly , saith mr. bl. we d● not say that this covenant was entred with abraham as a n●tural father , nor his seed comprehended as natural children ; but a● a p●ofessour of the faith ●ccepting the conant , taking god for his god he accepts it for himself , and f●r his seed , his natural p●sterity . and all that profess the faith hold in the like ten●re , are in covenant , and have the covenant ; not vested in their own persons , but enlarged to their posterity . answ. i do not remember that i did any where say that paedobaptists said , that covenant gen. . . w● entred with abraham as a natural ●ather , but the authour of the little treatise intituled infants baptism proved lawful by scripture , asserted the covenant was made with abraham as a believer ; to which i replied ▪ that as it was evangelical it was not made with abraham simply as a believer , for then it had been made to every believer as to abraham , but with abraham as the father of believers , and with his seed as believers as he was . but that ever any paedo●aptist did afore mr. bl ▪ assert that the covenant gen. . . as it was a covenant of evangelical grace , was entred by god with him as a professour of the faith , accepting the covenant taking god for his god , accepting it for himself and for his seed , his natural posterity , i do not reme●ber . if they should , yet i take it to be false , and without likelihood of truth . for if the covenant of evangelical grace were made with abraham under that formal consideration , then god had promised evangelical grace , justication , adoption , to him as a professour of faith onely , so that if it were supposed he had been an hopocrite , yet he should have been justified , adopted in that he was a professour of faith , or else it is to be conceived justification and adoption were not to abraham by this covenant , contrary to gal. . , , . nor hath it any likelihood of truth , that god would single out so exemplary a believer as abraham was , rom. . , . and enter so solemn a covenant with him barely as a professour of faith , which was competent to an hypocrite . nor do i well know in what sense god entred the covenant with him as ● professour of the faith accepting the covenant for himself and his s●ed . for gods entring the covenant is no other then his making of it : but god did not make it on this condition that abraham should accept it f●r him and his seed , but as knowing abrahams integrity , b● way of testification of his love and grace to him being so eminent and tried a believer afore this c●venant was made with him . nor is it true that all that profess the faith hold in the like tenure , are in covenant , and have the coven●nt ; not vested in their own persons , but enlarged to their posterity , there being none in the covenant gen. . . but abraham and his seed , of whom no meer professour of faith , much le●s his seed , except elect or true believer is either . nor was the covenant ever made to abrahams or israels mere natural posterity as it is evangelical ; much less enlarged to the posterity natural of every professour of faith . thirdly , saith mr. bl. we entitle the seed o● abraham , as before , to spiritual mercies ( and so the seed of all that hold in the tenure of abraham ) to saving grace , and justification to life eternal ; not by an absolute conveyance infallibly to inherit ( we know though israel be as the sand of the sea , yet a remnant onely shall be saved , rom. . . ) but upon gods terms , and conditions in the gospel of god , held out of god to his pe●ple ; salvation is made over by vertue of covenant , to all thus in covenant in that sense as christ speaks joh. . . salvation is of the jews . in that sense as christ us●th it of zacheus family ; this day is salvation come to this house , luk. . . in that sense as the apostle to the hebrews speaks of it , where he sets out the danger of neglecting so great salvation , heb. . . in that sense ( as i conceive ) the apostle speaks of it , where he saith , that upon the call of the jews all israel shall be saved , rom. . . answ. that by [ salvation luk. . . heb. . . rom. . . ] is not meant outward priviledges , in which salvation upon gods terms may be obtained , hath been shewed before sect. . and though i grant that salvation is said to be of the jews , in that from them was the doctrine of salvation , yet i see no necessity to expound the term [ salvation ] metonymically , as if by [ salvation ] were meant barely the doctrine of salvation , but the sense may be truely conceived thus , salvation , remission of sins , justification , adoption , eternal life , is of the jews , as instruments by preaching the gospel of converting , and so saving men . but that god when he promised gen. . . i will be thy god and the god of thy seed ( as this promise is evangelical ) meant this , all the professors of faith and their seed shall enjoy those priviledges , in which salvation upon gods terms may be obtained , is proved false . . in that the writers of the new testament never so explain it , but where the promise is mentioned as evangelical , they declare it imports a further thing proper to the elect and true believers . that they never by abrahams seed as evangelically understood , mean any other then elect persons and true believers : both which are proved largely before sect. . . that in this sense the promise were not made good , for god doth not make good to every professour of faith that he shall have ●hose priviledges , as to be baptized , be in church-communion , have the the lords supper , have a pastour to preach the gospel , much less to every one of his natural seed , as frequent experience shews . . by this exposition nothing is assured to the infant of a believer , or to a professour of faith , which is not also to an unbelievers child , yea to an unbeliever , who as well as they have title to saving grace , and justification to eternal life , upon termes and conditions in the gospel of god , held out of god to his people . mr. bl. adds , and this [ that professors of faith or believers upon their call shall enjoy those priviledges , in which salvation upon gods terms may be obtained ] is all that c●n by any means be squeezed out of their words , that say , the covenant of grace was made of god , with abraham and hi● natural seed , or with believers and their seed . it is even irksome to read the large business that mr. t. makes of it , to finde out mr. ms. meaning , about the covenant of god made with abraham and his se●d ; and both mr. m. and my self must per force confess that we mean ●t of a covenant , infallibly absolutely to confer grace , and cons●quently salvation . answ. . that more may be squeezed out , is proved in my exam. part . sect . . in this par● of the review sect . . , &c. and if no more be m●ant by them , these things w●ll follow . . that they mean by the covenant of grace , a covenant of outward priviledges , of viable c●urch-membership . baptism , the lords supper , to every beleever by prof●ssion , though a gentile , and his natural seed , under the pretence of the covenant , gen. . . which pretended outward covenant of outward priviledges is a meer counterfeit , neither gen , . . nor any where else to be found in the holy scripture . . they do most grosly abuse the text , gen. . . for proving such a covenant , quite besides the expositions given of it throughout the new testament , as is proved in this part of the revew , sect . . and quite besides the expositions even of the reformed divines , though paedobaptists , in their commentaries on the n. t. and writings against arminians . . they do mock readers most palpably ▪ . in telling them the covenant of grace cen●ains the promise of remission of sins , &c. is for substance the same in all ages , and say it belongs to all the infants of beleevers , that they are in it , that is that covenant of grace , they are confederate with parents , as the words of the directory , mr , m. and others cited by me , exam part . sect . shew ; and yet deny this covenant of saving grace is made to them all , but upon such conditions as upon which it is made to unbeleevers children , yea , to every man in the world . . in that they when they make the sacraments to be seals of the covenant of grace , and attempt to prove it from rom. . . which mentions onely a seal of the righteousness of faith ▪ they make them seals of the righteousne●s of faith , and say infants are in the covenant , and the seal must follow the covenant , and yet nevertheless deny all the infants they baptize by vertue of being in the covenant ( of which baptism is a seal ) to be in that covenant of which baptism is a seal ; but say they are in a meer imaginary covenant , which they call an outward covenant , of which baptism is no seal , but rather according to their conceits , the thing it self covenanted or promised . . they mock parents , by telling them in wr●tings and sermons , that they are to be comforted concerning their children , that if they be beleevers their children are saved by vertue of the promise gen. . . that they are bound to beleeve it ; and yet when they are pressed with the apostles determination . rom. . , . and other arguments , they deny that they understand it of the ●ovenant of saving grace , which alone can infer salvation ) infallibly and absolutely to confer grace ; but either they make it onely conditional if they repent and beleeve , which no man is sure any infant doth ; or they say in the judgement of charity ( which is fallible , and is no object of faith ) we are to take them to be in covenant and to b● saved , or else they say ( which is now the common shif● ) they are in the outward covenant , which is a figment , and of which they cannot say but that a person may be in it and not saved . . that sith it is commonly conceived by readers and hearers that they mean that which mr. m. mr g. mr. bl. &c. do disclaim , paedobaptists are bound to ●each the people at their baby sprinklings , and at other ti●es when they avouch the infants of beleevers and of meer visible professors of faith to be in the covenant of grace , gen● . and thereupon derive their title to baptism that they mean but as mr. m. mr. bl. say , that they may acquit themselves from deceiving the people , and being judged impostors . . it is no marvel that the d. section of the d. part of my examen is irksome to mr. bl. to read , sith it doth so fully lay open the fallacy of paedobap●ists in their speeches concerning the ●nfants of beleevers being in covenant . not did i set down the position i conceived mr. ms. d .. concl . any otherwise then in fair candid way , giving my reasons thereof ; and not as mr. bl. faith , per force imposing any thing on him . and for mr. m. it is shewed above § . . that mr. m. in his defence hath rather hidd●n then explained the m●aning of his d conclusion . as for m. bl. [ did acknowledge , exam. p. . that he spake most warily , and therefore was far from obtruding upon him . but yet mr. bl. for want of other exceptions against me , chargeth me with wronging him in a passag● in my apology , pag. . where i say , how doth this stand with tha● which he asserts , ch . . sect . . of his answer to my letter , pag. . that infants of beleevers have salvation , if they die in their infancy , by ver●ue of the covenant ? these words , he saith , were none of his , and that i could not but know it , when i published them ; and that the meaning was not his , i knew also , seeing he ex●ressed it in these words , that they are in the ordinary way of gods dispensation saveable . ●o w●ich i reply . the assertio● i co●ceived his , i gathered from those words in the place cited by me , that scrirture therefore , cor. . in this controversie is still brought in by our divines , as evidently holding out a covenant holiness , and consequently salvation of infants . and truly i must confess ▪ i thought his words so plain , that i never dream't he would have denied it to be his meaning , conceiving he alledged the protestant divines as con●onant to his own opinion ; and that if salvation of infants be inferred consequently from covenant holiness ( which mr. bl. asserts from cor. . . ) then it is mr. bls. meaning , that infants of beleevers have salvation in their infancy , if they die in their infancy , by vertue of the covenant , and that he asserts a certainty of salvation from the covenant . that which he saith . i knew that the meaning i impute to him was not his because of the words he sets down , and therefore a calumny tending to make a brother odious , is i am sure false , and a calumny which i never expect to have fairly answered by him , nor almost any thing else he is charged with by me to have dealt fouly in his opposing ●e about this point . the words he mentions were in the period before th●s . this papists deny , as not knowing how to avoid the salvation of infants , but that they are in the ordinary way of gods dispensation saveable , when they are thus admitted within the verge of gods promise . which being spoken of the papists , i did not conceive so likely to explain the speech of the period following , as that other a little before , protestants affirm that infants without actual admission to baptism are saved the main argument wherewith protestants assert it , is the covenant ▪ in which with the parents , infants are included : and i conceived [ are saved ] is as much as are actually saved . nor am i yet so well indoctrinated by mr. bl. as not to think it had been non-sense ( which i would not impute to mr. bl. ) to expound salvation of infants , by saveab●eness in the ordinary way of gods dispensation . nor did i imagine that by m● . bl. muc● less by protestant divines , a saveableness onely in gods ordinary way of dispensation , should be made the consequent of covenant holiness , but a certainty of salvation . for the covenant or prumise do●h not assure onely ● possibility , but a certainty ; yea , possibilities are not the things which men ever assure , they are antecedent to covenants and promises , but certain events ; an● to imagine gods covenant to assure onely a possibility , a saveableness , and not a certainty of salvation , is to make god to promis● nothing , b●t what is without such a covenant , which is to make it a blank . and if the covenant holiness infer onely a conditional salvation , it infers no more salvation then damnation : yea , if infants have no more by their covenant holiness then a saveableness in gods ordinary way of dispensation , then they have onely a saveableness if they be baptized , hear th● gospel preached , beleeve it , profess it ( which is the ordinary way whereby god dispenseth salvation . ) but if this were mr. bls. meaning , he ha● made baptism &c. a necessary condition of their salvation , and so he had tied their salvation with the papists to baptism , or rather been more rigid then they , durior pater infantum augustino , requiring the hearing the word , actual faith , and profession of them to salvation . so that i hope by this time mr. bl. will forgive me this wrong , in setting down his opinion better then he meant it , and that he will let fa●l hi● suit against me for this thing : and if so , i will forgive him for his next insinuation of my setting up a man of straw and then beating it down ( though it be indeed the common saying of paedobap●ists , who usually say , the covenant of grace sealed by baptism , ( which is that of justification ) is made to beleevers and their seed , the promise is to them and their children , a●●s . . which is meant by them of remission of sins ) and for his frivolous charge of my using the arguments of jesuits , and making use of protestants names , when i do bring not onely the names , but the very words and arguments of the most approved protestant writers in great number , and produce one papist , estius alone , no jesuite , but , though a papist , of the better sort ; and do , and may safely protest , that some of those mr. bl. chargeth me with i did not read ; and for one , what i read in him came not into my mind when i wrote that examen of mr. ms. sermon . so that what mr. bl. doth so often insinuate , as tending to make me suspected as if my arguments against infant baptism were borrowed from papists even then when i avouch protestants , is a most unworthy calumny , though i still say i am glad when i find truth , that i meet with i● in any authors , whether protestants or papists , and think it not the worse for their owning it . mr. bl a●ter his false accusations of me , and limitations of his own tenet , speaks thus . to draw all up towards a conclusion . all that is necessaril● included in gods entrance of covenant with a people , engaging to be their god , and taking them for his people ; is here by this grand charter of heaven made over to abraham , and his natural issue by ●saac and jacob. all their posteri●y are branches of this root by nature simply considered , and they are holy branches by vertue of this covenant , which necessarily implies priviledges of ordinances , the fruition of gods oracles , which are his covenant draughts ▪ without which no people are in covenant , but all are strangers : and this priviledge of ordinances implies also all priviledges , leading to , and accompanying salvation , and salvation it se●f upon gods terms in his word revealed . and so before the disputation , the reader hath my supposition . answ. the reader hath a supposition indeed , but such a one , as if he examine it , he will be more to seek concerning mr. bls. mind , then if he had omitted it . but i sh●ll as fairly as the ambiguity of his expr●ssions will permit , search out his meaning . there are no fewer then nine propositions thrust together in these words of his , that all that is necessarily included in gods entrance of covenant with a people , engaging to be their god , and taking them for his people ; is here by this grand charter of heaven made over to abraham , and his natural issue by isaac and jacob. in which , . he asserts the promise gen . . to be the grand charter of heaven : and i grant it to be so in the sense in which the apostle means , it , gal. . , , rom. . . and elsewhere , to wit ▪ as it is a promise of regeneration , justification , eternal life , which i call evangelical grace . . he speaks of gods entrance of covenant with a people , engaging to be their god , and taking them for his people , and of things necessarily encluded in this entrance of ●ovenant . but there are many ambiguities in these expr●ssions the term entrance into covenant is ambiguous : he may be said to enter into covenant who offers it , or who makes and concludes it . the term people of god is ambiguous ; it may be meant either of his people by special right , as the ten tribes were when they fell off to idolatry ; or his people by outward profession onely , or his people by effectual saving calling . the terms engaging to be their god , and taking them for his people , may be understood in respect of temporary protection , advancement , rule , &c. or righteousness and eternal life . the word people may note either singular persons , or the collective body of a nation which may not include every sing●lar person . he supposeth things necessarily included in gods entrance of covenant with a people : but i am not yet convinced that any things are necessarily included in gods entrance of covenant with a people engaging to be the●r god , and taking them f●r his people ; but that all things therein included are arbitrary , or of his free-will . and if there be any things necessarily included , sure they are not priviledges of ordinances , i mean initial and after seals , visible church-membership of infants ; for god entred into covenant wit● abraham long b●fore , and never promised those things ; so he did with noah ; and with adam . and that which agreeably to the scripture was promised gen . . was to the natural seed of abraham by isaac and jacob , peculiar protection , provision , rule , sam. . . by giving laws to them , appointing them judges , directing t●em by oracles in war and peace , &c. to the spiritual seed of abraham the promise was of christ , righteousness , adoption , and the inheritance of eternal life ; not those petty things which mr bl. doth frivolously imagine to have been contained in that grand charter of heaven , as he calls it , which is the thing that mr. bl. would fain squeeze out of that text , though there be not the least colour in all the holy scripture for it . his second proposition is , that all isaac's and jacobs posterity are branches of this root by nature simply considered ; which if he understand of abraham , and isaac , and jacob , as a natural root , propagating them by natural generation , i grant it ; if he mean it of a covenant root , as he calls it , as deriving from them evangelical grace by the covenant gen. . . i deny it . his d. is , and they are holy branches by vertue of this covenant ; which if he mean they were holy in respect of gods special rule , setting up his tabernacle among them and such like prerogatives as are mentioned rom. . , . i grant it : but if he mean it of holiness according to election of grace , as rom. . . is meant , it is not true . his th . is , that this covenant necessarily implies priviledge of ordinances , the fruition of gods oracles : which if he mean in this sens● , that gods worship should be among them , that the laws of god , and his word should be to the collective body of israel , i grant it ; but if he mean it of visible church-membership of infants , initial and after seals , which is the thing he aims at , ) i deny it . the th . that priviledge of ordinances , and fruition of gods oracles , are gods covenant draughts , hath the same answer . the th . and th . that without this priviledges of ordinances and fruition of gods oracles , no people are in covenant , but all are strangers ; if it be meant of the covenant of evangelical grace , and of particular persons , the propositions are manifestly false ; for then no infants dying afore they have an initial seal , hear the word , &c. should be in covenant : if it be meant of the priviledges of ordinances , and fruition of gods ordinances in any sort , i grant , that if there be no worship of god among them , no fruition of gods word written or unwritten , no people of ripe age , whether families , or nations , or single persons , can be said to be in covenant , but are strangers from it ; but if they be understood of such peculiar o●dinances and oracles as the jews had , rom. . , . i deny it ; for adam , seth , enoch , noah , &c. were in covenant with god without them . his th . and this priviledge of ordinances implies also all priviledges leading to , and accompanying salvation ; if meant of in-being in christ , having his spirit to dwell in them , which are the chief priviledges leading to , and accompanying salvation , and of all that have the priviledge of ordinances . i deny it ; unless he mean it as he doth the th . proposition , that this priviledge of ordinances implies salvation it self upon gods terms in his word revealed , which are repentance and faith in christ , and then both propositions are granted , the th . and the th ▪ that the priviledge of ordinances doth imply both in-being in christ , and his spirits in dwelling , and salvation it self to them that repent and believe in christ. which is true also of them that have not this priviledge of ordinances , as cornelius , and many more . and thus mr. bl. also hath my exposition and answer concerning his position and supposition : let 's now see what he proves . sect . xlviii . the th . and th . chapters of mr. bls. vind. faed . are examined , and his arguments concluding the natural issue of believers to be taken into covenant , are answered . he intitles thus ch . . arguments concluding the natural issue of abraham , isaac , and jacob to be taken into covenant ; which he may prove and not oppse me , who grant , that god promiset● gen. . ▪ to be a god to the natural seed of abraham , inheriting in domestick and political benefits : from whence he falsly infers ▪ that i cast out all the natural seed of abraham from any title to that covenant , save in domes●ick and political benefits ; and then undertakes this position in full opposition , that covenant ▪ in those words exprest gen. . . in their fullest latitude , as they are spoken in the largest comprehension ( which according to scripture they can be taken , ) are entred with all the natural seed of abraham by isaac and jacob. so that if to be a god , gen. . . to abraham and his seed , comprehend evangelical benefits of regeneration , justification , eternal life , his position is , that the covenant is entred in respect of these benefits , with all the natural seed of abraham by isaac and jacob ; which can be meant no otherwise then thus , god had promised , gen. . . these benefits to th●m all : for the covenant could be no otherwise entred with them , isaac and jacob being not then begotten , nor in being , and therefore the entry into covenant could not be mutual . here then the question between us is not , whether the natural issue of abraham by isaac and jacob were taken into covenant ? gen. . . for i grant that god there promised to be a god to them by domestick and political benefits , to wit , by setting up his worship more peculiarly in that nation , by raising up the messiah out of them , by giving them peculiar laws himself , raising up judges and governours for them , vouchsafing them peculiar protection which he vouchsafed not to other p●ople , directing them by his oracle when they enquired of him , &c. and these benefits he promised to them all conditionally if they adhered to god : but the question between us is ; whether gen. . . god have promised to all the natural issue of abraham by isaac and jacob , the evangelical benefits of regeneration , justification , and eternal life , supposed to be meant in the words , to be a god to thy seed ? this i deny , and mr. bl ▪ should prove , if he dispute in opposition to me . however let 's view what he writes . my first argument ( saith he ) is taken from the addition annexed to this covenant in the words immediately following v. . that seed of abraham ▪ that had possession of the land of canaan through the gift and by vertue of the promise of god , is the seed here taken into covenant to have the lord for their god. this is so plain , that nothing can be plainer to any that read the words ; but the natural seed of abraham , all the seed of jacob in their several tribes ( according as god set them their bounds ) inherited the land of canaan , which is called the land of their inheritance , and not onely the spiritual seed regenerate , they that onely sojourned in canaan , heb. . . and were never possessed of it , had title to it : it was theirs in reversion , though they never came into actual possession . answ. . the major is not true , if the subject of the proposition be understood exclusively , or universally , and the phrase in the predicate [ to have the lord for their god ] be meant in respect of the evangelical benefits of regeneration , justification , and eternal life . it is not true , that god hath covenanted to be a god in respect of these benefits to all , or onely to that seed of abraham that had possession of the land of canaan through the gift , and by vertue of the promise of god : nor doth the text at all make it plain . for though it prove that the seed of abraham meant in the fore-part of gen. . v. . were also meant v. . yet it doth not prove that all , or they onely that had the promise of canaan , had the promise of being a god to them in gospel grace . the minor is granted , [ all ] being meant , as they speak in logick , distributively in genera singulorum , that is , of any sorts of them , but not in singulos generum ; and with limitation to certain times fore-appointed of god , not in all times . all sorts inherited , but some were not to inherit till a certain time , and for a certain time ; a bastard , mamzer , deut. . . was not to enter into the congregation of the lord , and so not to inherit regularly till the tenth generrtion . but were mr. bls. conclusion granted , it proves not what i deny , that to all , and every israelite god promised evangelical benefits , gen. . . or visible church membership and initial seal at all to any in that promise , gen. . . my next argument , saith he , is drawn from the seal that is annexed in the words immediately following this additional promise , v. , , . they that had the sign and seal of the covenant , that had it by divine appointment they were a people in covenant . this is so plain , that nothing can be more plain ; god doth not enter covenant with one and give the sign and seal to another : but all the natural seed of abraham by isaac and jacob had the seal , viz all the males , those that were in a c●pacity of it ; it was not limited to the spiritual seed . there had been no place for that distinction , of circumcision in the flesh , and circumcision of the heart ; if none must be circumcised in the flesh , but those that are circumcised in heart . answ. . waving my exception against the title of seal of the covenant , not given to circumcision , or any other rite in the scripture , and inconvenient as is before proved , and putting in [ circumcision ] instead of it ; i deny the major , if understood universally : nor is the major plainly true , but plainly false , it being manifest in that very covenant , that god entred it not with ishmael and others whom he appointed to be circumcised . nor is any thing more plain then the contrary to what mr. bl. asserts . for god did enter into covenant with th● natural seed female inheriting of abraham by isaac and jacob , according to mr. bl. himself ; the daughters of zelophehad were in covenant , and yet he did give the sign of the covenan● to others , and not to them . nor is the minor true ; for the males of seven days old were in a capacity of circumcision , yet they had it not . i grant that circumcision was not limited to the spiritual seed ▪ yet conceive mr. bls. proof of no force : for though it had been so limited , yet there had been place for the distinction of circumcision in the flesh , and of the heart , sith things may be distinguished ▪ which are not separate . but were the conclusion granted , it fails as the former in proving what i deny . my d. argument , saith he , is drawn from the comment that god himself makes of th●s covenant , holding it e●ery where out in this way of tenure to abraham and his natural issue , as before , exod. . . deut . . all that whole people he owned as his , all of them being abrahams natural issue ; yet all of them were not spiritual . exod. . . deut. . , . amos . , . is very full to our purpose . every one that descended from jacob , the whole of the family that came out of aegypt , were a select people to god in covenant ; he was according to the terms of that covenant , their god. there is not a place where god calls them by the name of his people ( which are almost endless ) but there we have this confirmed , t●at that people were the lords by vertue of this grant made to abraham and his seed . answ. this last speech might be granted , and what else mr. bl. infers from the text ; yet he attains not his end , unless he prove that by vertue of that covenant all the israelits by natural discent we●e god● regenerate , j●stified people ; for the thing he should prove against me , is , that gen. . . god promiseth to be a god in respect of gospel benefits to all abrahams natural issue by isaac and jacob. yet i conceive there are places wherein the israeli●es were termed gods by vertue of the covenant of the law ezek. . & . . &c. without mentioning the covenant gen. . which the apostle conceives differently of , gal. . , . and the spee●hes exod. . . deut. . . exod. . . deut. . , . though spoken of the body of israel , yet may and are to be understood , at least in some senses of them , not of every individual : surely he was not god evangelically to those that believed not , nor were they his people , nor legally , so as to afford them that protection , and tem●oral blessings which are promised in the la● , deut. . &c. to ahab , achan , korah , and such like . but in the evangelical sense the denomination is from the better part , the people he fore knew , as the apostle himself expounds it , rom. . , . and in respect of political blessings according to the covenant of the law , to the obedient to the law , as of long life to dutifull children ▪ safety ▪ whi●e they kept the solemn feasts . exod. . . & . . nor doth amos . , . which he saith , is full to his purpose , say , that god was a god to that whole family which he brought out of aegypt by vertue of the covenant , gen. . . much less to every one of them evangelically , nor doth he say he had known them ●ll evangelically , but had known them onely , that is , had distinguished them from other people by giving them his laws , &c. which makes nothing to prove according to gen. . . god took every descendent from jacob into covenant in respect of gospel benefi●s . in the th place , saith he , i argue from the practise of the people of god , making this covenant of god entred with abraham and his seed , a plea to obtain mercy from god for all israel , the worst of isra●l , in their lowest state and condition , deut. . , . if this divinity had been th●n known , moses might have been sent away with this answer ; that he spake for dogs , and not for children ; not for israel but for aliens and strangers to the common-wealth of israel . but as this an● the like requests of the people of god were made in faith , so they prevailed with god ; moses there urgeth , they are thy people and thine ineritance , v. . as doth the church , isa. . . and moses petition takes , as the history shews , exod. . . yea , when god vouchsafes mercy to his people thus in covenant , levit. . . it is upon this account of the covenant . and appearing for the deliverance of israel out of their hard and pressing bondage , he saith to mose● , exod. . . and that to stay up his faith in confidence of deliverance . ●nsw . tha● which mr. bl. should prove , is , that covenant exprest in those words gen. . . in their fullest latitude as they are spoken , in the largest comprehension ( which according to scripture they can be taken ) are entred with all the natural seed of abraham by isaac and jacob. and in his answer to my letter , ch . . pag. , . he urgeth exod. . . deut. . , levit . . exod. . . to prove that gen ▪ . . was a promise of grace and mercy to jacobs posterity , such as of which circumcision was a seal , rom. . . which he saith is no other then a covenant of grace , and saith circumcision did seal that covenant , to be the god of believers , and their seed , gen , . , . but not one of the petitions or speeches alledged do prove either the former , or this last assertion . the petition of moses , exod. . . was upon occasion of the making of the golden calf , & gods speech to moses concerning the consuming of them for it , and making moses a great nation : moses to divert god from this thing , alledgeth , . that they were his people which he brought out of aegypt with great power , and a mighty hand ; and if he should consume them , the aegyptians would reproach him , as intending mischief to them when he brought them out of aegypt . where it is true , god calls the body of them his people : but this must be understood , if evangelically , in respect of the better part onely ; if legally , either de jure because they ought to have been his people , being delivered from aegypt , and having engaged themselves exod. . . to obey god ; or de facto , because he had done so great things for them , and thereby owned them in respect of his actings for them above other people . . he presseth god with his oath to abraham , isaac , and jacob. but the oath he mentions is concerning the multiplying the seed of abraham , isaac ▪ and jacob as the stars of heaven , and giving the land of canaan to them , and that they shall inherit it for ever ▪ not a word of being god to all the natural issue of abraham by isaac and jacob in respect of evangelical blessings , nor a word tending to shew the extent of th● promise gen. . . in respect of gospel grace . the same answer i give to his allegation of deut. . , , , . and to mr. bls. flirt i answer , this divinity was then known to god , and god might have sent away moses with this answer , that he spake for some who were dogs , or reprobates , and not children of god according to the election of grace , which is the apostles divinity , rom. . , , . cor. . . heb. . , , , , , . and that they were strangers from the co●monwealth of israel , that is , of the israel of god , gal ▪ . . and t●is is also the apostles divinity , rom. . . and therefore i count this no absur●ity . but i grant they , even the worst of them were not dogs , but children , and of the commonwealth of israel political , in respect of their outward state , and in that respect holy , and different from other people . to the other i answer , it is true , moses prayed in faith , and was heard ; but there is no mention in the places alledged of his praying for spiritual evangelical grace for every particular israelite , but for the preventing an utter destruction of them : nor doth he at all express any such faith , whereby he believed god had promised to be a god to all the natural issue of abraham by isaac and jacob in respect of evangelical benefits . but that god would not destroy them , in which respect he was heard . and in like manner the covenant upon the account of which god did vouchsafe mercy , is that of giving them canaan , which mr. bl. will not have the covenant it self , but an appendix to it ; and yet exod . . that is it which is pleaded , and levit. . , the covenant it is plain is that he made concerning their seating in canaan , for it expresly saith , and i will remember the land , and v. . i will not utterly destroy them . the church it is true , saith , isa. . . we are all thy people ; but if this church be meant of all and every israelite by natural descent , then all and every of them were a praying people , which is not to be said , and therefore is to be understood of the believing remnant onely , or else that they were gods people in the sense before given of exod. . , . deut. . . exod. . . it is true , god saith to moses , to stay up his faith in confidence of the deliverance of israel from egypt , that he was the god of his father , the god of abraham , of isaac , and jacob , and it is ●rue , our lord christ hence proves the resurrection of the dead , luke , , . and therefore it proves eternal life included in the promise , gen. . . but this is so far from proving god to be a god in respect of evangelical blessings meant gen. . . to every israelitte , or to be a god to believers and their natural seed , that it is a good argument to the contrary ; for this absurdity would follow , that every one of them are certainly saved , if he were a god to every of them in the sense , luke . , . mr. bl. next excepts against me for censuring of chamiers calling the promise of the land of canaan an apenpendant to the covenant , gen. . . and saith , the thing is so clear in the narrative of it , gen. , that nothing can be more evident . the covenant is full , v. . to be a god to abraham and his seed ; and this he might have been , had he pleased , in the land of ur of the caldees , or in any l●nd whatsoever that his seed had been planted● : but when the covenant is thus made , there is added ; v. . and i will give unto thee , &c. answ. my censure of chamier was no more then this , i like not , and i say the same still , that the promise of the land of canaan gen. . . is not a meer appendant , but as truly a part of the covenant god made with abraham gen. . as v. . and to mr. bls. strong conceit i oppose my strong conceit of the evidence to the contrary ( being backed by the scripture ) as sufficient of countervail his saying ; and for his reasons . . god might have been a god to them in vr ▪ ergo , the promise of canaan is but an appendix , not a part of the covenant . i answer , . by the like reason it might be said , thou shalt be a father of many nations , is but an appendant to the covenant , contrary to gen. . . because god might be a god to him , though father of one nation onely . . by denying the consequence , which is in my slender conceit a baculo ad angulum ▪ the other ( if it be a reason and not a dictate ) is , the covenant is full , v. . but when the covenant is made there is added , v. . i answer . . by like reason it might be said , the covenant is full ▪ v. , , . but when the covenant is made v. , , ▪ there is add●d v. . ergo , v. . is n● part of the covenant , but an appendant to it . . it is not proved that at v. . the covenant is full , yea v. . being as mr. bl. himself stiles it , an additional promise , it is proved , that the covenant is not full without it being added as a promise , and so a part of ●he conant . i said the holy ghost me thinks speaks otherwise postscript . § . . mr. bl opposeth . the force of this argument must needs be this . that which is any where called a covenant , that is not an appendant to a covenant . but the giving of the land of canaan to the seed of abraham is there called by the name of a covenant . mr. t. sure will not say that circumcision is the covenant between god and his people , he will not deny but it is a signe and seal annext to the covenant ; and yet gen. . . it is called a covenant . mr. t. well enough knowes a metonymy of the adjunct and the common use of it in scripture ; but that it is his wisedome for his advantage to conceal it . answ. mr. t. well knows , that mr. bl. useth artifices to elude , when he should answer . the words of the psalmist were alledged as a plain testimony , which need not be formed into an argumen● , but if it need forming , i should not form it as mr. bl. forms it ( that he may the eas●er slight what he cannot answer ) but thus . that promise which is called gods covenant for ever , the word which he commanded to a thousand generations , which he made , was his oath , confirmed for a law and everlasting covenant , decl●red by saying in words what god would do , that is a covenant , at least in part , and not a meer appendant . but such is the promise of the land of canaan , gen. . . and elsewhere , ergo . the major might be proved from the definition of a covenant , which is either a promise or an aggregate of promises single or mutual . the minor is the very text . and to mr. bls. shift i reply . i knew well enough a metonymy of the adjunct or signe to beuied gen . . but i withal knew it would have been my folly to have expounded the term [ covenant ] psal. . , . by a metonymy like that gen. . . for i should have made the psalmist speak non-sense , and perverted his plain meaning if i had thus expounded , he hath remembred his covenant , that is not his promise it self ▪ but the signe and seal of it , which he made , sware , said and i think it had been mr. bls. wisedome to have concealed this shift , and rather have let it pass without saying any thing to the objection . mr. bl. adds his fifth and last argument , from texts in the n. t. which interpret this covenant thus en●ered with abraham in that latitude as extending to his natural issue , and not with limit to his spiritual seed ; and that not barely in domestick civil , but in spiritual promises ; so that this one hath many in the bowels of it . answ. abrahams spiritual seed are true believers as he was and elect persons , spiritual promises are so called from th● things promised , called ephes. . . spiritual blessings in heavenly things in christ , such are regeneration or circumcision of the heart , remission of sins , justification , adoption , eternal life . if mr. bl. holds the covenant with abraham extending to his natural issue , and not with limit to his spiritual seed in spiritual promises , he holds r●generation , remission of sins , justification , adoption , eternal life , to them who are neither true believers nor elect persons . let 's view his proofs . first , saith he rom. . , , , , . the apostle aggravating his sorrow for israel , not respective to civil or domestick but higher concernments for the whole body of israel , he reckons up their priviledges , the priviledges of all that according to the flesh were israe●ites ; priviledges formerly enjoyed , but now lost , nine ●n number . here sure is enough to conclude them of the seed thus in covenant t● be of gods adopted seed under the promises . answ. he might more truely have said , here sure is nothing ( as it was printed ) to conclude all the natural issue of abraham , isaac , and jacob , to be of gods ad●pted seed under the promise of spiritval blessings in the covenant gen. . . as it contained gospel grace . the priviledges could not be o● all that according to the flesh were israelites , for of them all as concerning the flesh christ could not come , now were all ( if any of them ) priviledges evangelical from spiritual promises in the covenant of grace , but rather all of them domestick or civil priviledges which believers of the nations had not . nor were the priviledges to the israelites at all times , but at some times . and therefore this text is impertinent to mr. bls , purpose , yea this scripture and that wh●ch followes put together , are an antithesis to his thesis . secondly , saith he , rom. . the apostle speaks of the casting off of gods people . those that are cast off from being a people of god , were once his people ; those that are put out of covenant , were a people in covenant : but the natural issue of abraham ( called natural branches , v . being by right of birth of that olive ) are there broken off , cast off ; therefore the natural issue were the seed in covenant . answ. the conclusion is granted , the natural issue of abr●ham who were also the spiritual seed were the seed in covenant , and such were a great part of the jews in former ages , but those broken off , were never in the covenant of grace ; nor is it said they were put out of the covenant of grace , or broken off from the olive in which they were in their persons , but in which their progenitors were ; nor are they said to be natural branches v. . because by right of birth of that olive , but by reason of their descent from abraham they are natural branches of that olive which at first was by natural as well as spiritual descent from him , but never by right of birth . it is false if meant of casting off from being his people , as it is meant rom. . , ▪ that those that are cast off from being a people of god were once his people , understanding it in their own persons . but of this text , and this argument , more hath been said in the first part of this review , and more will be , if the lord permit , in that which follows . thirdly , saith he , matth. . , . whence he thus argues . children of the kingdome that are to be cast out , are in the kingdome onely upon an in●erest of birth , for the fruition of the priviledges of ordinances , and not upon any spiritual title , infallibly giving interest in salvation : but the children of the kingdome were upon our saviours sentence to be cast out , therefore they were in the kingdome onely on an interest of birth . answ. this argument concludes not mr. bls. position , that the covenant exprest gen. . . in the fullest latitude of the words as they are there spoken , in the largest comprehension ( which according to scripture they can be taken ) are entered with all the natural seed of abraham , by isaac and jacob. . it contradicts his own position , for if it bee as , he here saith , tha● they were not children of the kingdome ( though the natural seed of abraham by isaac and jacob ) upon any spiritual title infallibly giving interest in salvation , and yet the covenant gen. . . wherein god saith , he will be a god to abrahams seed , comprehends such saving grace as creates a spiritual title , infallibly giving interest in salvation , as the apostle gal. . , , , &c. expounds it , then the covenant gen. . . is not entred with all the natural seed of abraham by isaac and jacob , in the fullest latitude of the words as they are there spoken , in the largest comprehension ( which according to scrip●ure they can be taken ) therefore this argument overthrowes his own positi●n . . if by [ being in the kingdome ] be meant being visible members of the visible church jewish , the conclusion is granted , but withal it is proved from the same text , that they were never in the visible church christian , but were opposite to it , in that they embraced not the christian faith , but opposed the lord jesus christ , and so had no right to baptism , though they had circumcision , and did eat the passeover . it is manifest from the text , and agreed upon by interpreters , that the kingdome of heaven in that place notes the kingdome of glory , or the state of eternal life and blessedness in heaven , and not the visible church onely , or a being in it for the fruition of the priviledges of ordinances . for the kingdome of heaven is that wherein abraham and isaac and jacob were then sate down , for it is said v. ▪ . they shall sit down with abraham isaac and jacob , in the kingdome of heaven . but they were then sate down not in the visible church onely , nor had being in it for the fruition of ●he priviledges of ordinances , but in the state of eternal life and blessedness in heaven , ergo ▪ . the kingdome of heaven there is directly opposed to the outer darkness , where is weeping and gnashing of teeth v. . but that which is directly opposed to the outer darkness in which is weeping and gnashing of teeth , is the kingdome of glory , or the state of eternal life and blessedness in hea●en , and not the visible church onely , or a being in it for the fruition of the priviledges of ordinances , ergo . . the scope of the speech of our saviour is conceived by most interpreters , to be to abate the insolency and pride of the jews , who contemned the gentiles . upon occasion of the centurions faith v. . he tels them , though they now despised the gentiles as not worthy to eat with them , yet they should come from east and west and should sit down with the best of their ancestors , in the best , highest , and happiest place and condition . . ex●ounding it of the visible church it were not true which our saviour speaks ; for the gentiles did never sit down with them in the visible church for the fruition of the privi●edges of ordinances , such as c●rcumcision , the passeover , baptism , the lords supper , for some of these abraham , isaac , and jacob , did never partake of , nor ever shall , nor may the gentiles with them , partake of circumcision , and the passeover , for that had been to have foretold that the gentiles should have been circumcised with those fathers , which had been to establish judai●m , contrary to the apostles decree acts . to pauls determination gal. . & . , , , , , , . yea , if it had been foretold that the gentiles should come and joyn themselves to the visible church jewish , which began in abraham , isaac , and jacob , our lord christ had foretold that conjunction , which was so far from proving true in the event , that they who did come to christ were persecuted and cast out of that church gal. . . thes. . . . hence it follows , that the children of the kingdome are not so called because they were in that ▪ kingdome of heaven which is there meant , for then they had never been cast out : but they are called children of the kingdome , because as diodati notes , by the prerogative of gods covenant the jews seemed to be heirs of this kingdome , or as the new annot . as ch . . . who were born of those parents to wh●m the kingdome was promised , and by vertue of the covenant rom. ● . . it had still belonged to them , had they not forfeited it by their unbelief and wickedness . pisch . sch . filios verò regni ] id est , judaeos qui hacteni●s per aliquot saecula ad regnum illud coelorum vocati sunt & vocantur . beza annot. filios regni , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , id est , indigenas , quos vocant vulgò naturales subjectos . intelligit autem dei regnum , ad quod pertinebant in gener● quicunque erant ex abrahae genere , cum longè alia sit ratio coram deo censendi filios abrahae , nimirùm ex fide . so that they were children of the kingdome not before god in actual title or possession , but onely in appearance to men , and likelihood , considering their descent and the first manifestation of christ , and the gospel to that people . . out of this it appears that a man may be said to be ●ast out of the kingdome of heaven , who was never in actually , but onely in possibility , according to what was apparent to men , and consequently mr. bls. propositions are not true in his precedent argument , those that are cast off from being a people of god , were once his people ; those that are put out of covenant , were a people in covenant ; nor the argument good , ishmael was cast out of covenant , therefore once in . nor is it seldome , that men are said to be brought up from the grave , as psal. . . and to be redeemed from the grave and hell , who were never in , but onely in danger of it . but mr. bl. hath yet a fourth text , which was his text in his birth-priviledge , it is gal . . from whence after some explication given of the text he t●us argues , that which is a priviledge of nature or birth , belongs to the natural issue , that cannot be denied . but to be in covenant with god as a people holy and exceeding others that are without as sinners , is a priviledge of nature or birth , therefore this priviledge belongs to the natural issue . ans. to be in covenant with god may be understood either in respect of the covenant with abraham gen . or the covenant at mount sinai exod. . to be in the covenant gen . may be in respect of evangelical benefits , or of domestick and political benefits or priviledges , as , to bee accounted members of the israelitish nation and so of that church , to have the service of god among them , the law among them , education under it , freedome from idolatry , and other pollutions of the gentiles . to be as a people holy , may be understood either of holiness by inward sanctification , called circumcision of the heart , or of outward holiness in being distinguished from other people , as set apart visibly for god , whether in reputation or truth , either by gods distinction or by an outward signe , or by their own profession . i grant the minor of being in covenant either exod. . or gen. . in respect of the domestick and political benefits , at least some of them , and to be a holy people exceeding others that are without as sinners , if understood of outward holiness in reputation or truth , by gods distinction , and by the outward signe of circumcision , was ( i do not grant is ) a privil●dge of nature or birth , and accordingly grant the conclusion , that this priviledge did ( i do not say doth ) belong to the natural issue ( i do not say to all ) of abraham by isaac and jacob , and was proper to the jews , and no more can be gathered from gal. . . there 's not a word of the same priviledge as belonging to the natural poste●ity of believing gentiles . but the minor is denied , if understood of evangelical benefits and of holiness inward ( of which alone the question should have been formed , his position being in full opposition to my words ) nor is it proved out of the text , himself expounding jews by nature , that is by birth and off spring of a nation that is holy though in themselves sinners , reputed an holy people , a people by covenant holy to the lord , which they might be though to be in covenant with god gen. . . and as a people holy and exceeding others that are without as sinners by inward holiness be not a priviledge of nature or birth . but mr. bl. thinks my grant involves me in not a few contradictions . . to what i say exercit. pag. . the natural seed inherit onely domestick and civil benefits . but mr. bl. falsly chargeth me , the word [ onely ] is mr. bls. addition not mine , as the reader that shall read the words may perceive . . to what i am wont to deny , that birth entitles any to such priviledges as interest in circumcision , and observance of moses law . but this is another of mr. bls. forged calumnies : let him shew if he can that i say so any where , and he deserves some credit , if not let him suffer as a calumniator . . that i deny the natural seed any promise of spiritual mercies , which is another forgery of his like the former . . that i say this was proper to the jews in that church state , who had prerogatives peculiar to them . and then saith thus . and here we urge it no further , and it fully concludes mr. t. in a contradiction , that will have the natural seed of abraham , and no other then his spiritual seed to be entituled to such priviledges . here 's more of his forgery , that i say no other then abrahams spirit●ul seed are entituled to such priviledges as were proper to the jews in that church state , who had prerogatives peculiar to them . let him shew any such thing in my writing , or let him , as he and his fellow paedobaptist mr. robert baillee ( who hath in like sort wronged me ) as they ought , testifie their repentance by righting me . otherwise the lord will to their shame discover their evil dealing , i● their own conscience be so blinde or so hard as to slight such a sin . he concludes thus , any one of these arguments severally , much more all ●ointly , make good this position , that all the natural seed of abraham by isaac and jacob , are in that great charter ( vouchsafed of god ) taken into covenant so as to be the people of god , and to enjoy all priviledges of his people in order ( upon gods termes ) to everlasting salvation . but . not one nor all prove that god did promise to all gen. . . or any such outward priviledges as he means , to wit , to be circumcised , or right to it and the passeover , nor that all enjoy them . . the promises of justification , adoption , eternal life , upon gods termes , without the promise of regeneration and effectual calling , make no● a person to be in the covenant , nor a people holy to the lord evangeli●ally . now this promise mr. bl. hath not proved to be made to all the natural seed of abraham , by isaac and jacob , and till he doth so , he proves nothing against my assertion exercit. pag. which he pretended fully to oppose , but hath failed to do it . his . ch . is answered before sect . . i pass on to ch . . which is thus entituled , the covenant in new testament times takes in parents with their children ; this he sets himself to make good first by interrogatories , and then by peters words acts . , . which is answered before sect . . a little o● his interrogatories . to his first , if by the grant he mean the covenant of grace evangelical , i deny it to have been ever made to a beli●ver and all his seed , nor is it proved by mr. bl. if a covenant of visible church-membership and initial seal , i deny any such covenant ever made by god to a believer and his seed , or the grant thereof to have been held by the church of god in fee from abraham to this present hour , and therefore need shew no reverse of such a grant . to his d . demand , i grant a whole nation may enter into covenant as deut . nor do i restrain any from engagement of their infants and posterity unborn by an oath and curse to own god but i finde there no promise or grant of visible church-membership and initial seal to believers and their seed , by vertue of such a covenant . his other frivolous questions in that demand are answered often , that the difference ariseth f●om the different institution of circumcision which is the rule of administring them , not interest in the covenant if there were such . to his d. demand , i know no scandal ever given or likely to be given to the jews by not baptizing infants . his random talk of s●riking out of the covenant infants , is shewed often before to be vain , as going on suppositions not proved . to his alleg●tions of gen. . . ezek . . . cor. . . i have often answered before . to his th . that the reason why in the apostles dayes and the next age to them ▪ no question was moved about the baptizing of infants , though infants were circumcised by the jews is manifest , to wit , christ had not appointed infants to be bap●ized , the apostles and primitive christians did not at all use it , it was contrary to the end and use of baptism as appointed by christ , they knew not of the paedobaptists doctrine , about the title to baptism from the covenant , and its succession to circumcision . but mr. bl. further refers me to mr. baxters treatise of infants church-membership , proving that infants were sometimes church members , pag , . that there is no repeal of this grant vouchsafed of god pag. , . waiting for some fair answer to the former demands whereto i shall address my self , as being very desirous wi●h the assistance of the lord to do my endeavour for the freeing of men from the delusion of that book , wherewith a great number of paedobaptists have been gulled . sect . xlix . the th ▪ ch. of mr. baxters , part . of plain scripture-proof , &c. is examined , his conceits about infants visible church membership and their admission considered ; and sundry animadversions made on that chapter . mr. b. part . ch . . of his plain scripture-proof , &c. writes thus . my d . argument , and the chief i shall make use of is this . all that ought to be admitted visible church-members , ordinarily ought to be baptized : but some infants ought to be admitted visibl● church-members ; therefore some infants ordinarily ought to be baptized . mr. t. hath gone over and over the terms of this argument ; so oft ▪ as if he could not possibly find out my meaning in them : when they are as plain as i well know how to express my self . a great while he fain would have denied the major proposition ; but at last he is content to deny onely the minor : and indeed that is the very heart of the controversie . the question between us is no● so mu●h whether infants may be baptized ? as whether they are in the number of christians , and to be added as members to the visible church ? if mr. t. did grant the minor , and not deny our children christianity , and to be members of the church , i should for my part , think his errour ( though foul ) yet of less consequence in denying of baptism . but it is their church-membership that he denieth , and yeeldeth that all that ought to be admi●ted members should be baptized . answ. that i did often in the dispu●e at bewdly go over and over the terms of this argument , need not seem st●a●ge , when mr. thomas hooker having the book he was to examine before him in print , in a like point , saith thus , survey of the summe of church discipline , part . ch . . when i had read over mr. rutherford once and again , i was at a stand in mine own thoughts , to determine certainly what was his proper intendment by the catholick and visible church . i might well doubt what he meant by the visible church , how he defined i● , ( wherein his notion is different from what others have , as is shewed before in the d . part of this review , sect . . ) whether he meant the visible church catholick , or particular ; and if particular , whether jewish , or christian. and for the admission , what he meant by it , how , and by whom it ought to be , was doubtfull . i perceived in the very entrance of the dispute , by his preface , and his propounding the question about our baptizing , representing it as odious , as if it were murder and adultery ; and after by his denying liberty of repeating to mee , refusing to explain his own terms , scoffingly putting if off as if it were catechizing of him , when i desired him to open some terms to me which he used ; and when i told him that it was needfull the people should understand us , he replyed , he came to dispute with me , not to instruct them : nor would clear them , except i could by distinction force him to it . i deprehended that he was , as i found him , bent to catch advantages to insult over me , and carry away the same of a victory , and not in a brotherly candid way to discuss the point , that truth might appear to all the hearers , which i hoped from a man so seemingly godly . upon which reasons i confess i was hesitant , both about the answering of this , and other arguments all along the dispute , finding that mr. b. had studied arguments in unusual expressions , that he might the more easily entangle me , having no time to weigh his words , but being required presently to give answer . for which reason i was also necessitated sometimes to vary my answers as i deprehended his meaning to be . now presuming i shall better understand mr. b. then i could do before , i shall give a more determinante answer to his argument . which that i may do , i conceive it necessary , that in the entrance i do enquire into his opinion concerning the visible church , and admissi●n into it , and the meaning of his expression [ ought to be admitted visible church-members . ] . mr. b supposeth that the reason of the appellation given to the visible body , is its seeming ( to the judgement of man ) to be the same with the mystical . praefestin : morator sect . . . that to be a member of the church visible , is but to be one that in seeming , or appearance , or to the judgement of man doth belong to the invisible church or the kingdome of heaven , if a man be known ( or any sort of men ) to belong to the church invisible , then they visibly belong to it ; and then they are visible members of the church . plain script . proof , &c. part . ch . . pag . ch . . pag. . he saith , to be member of the visible church , or of the church as visible , or a visible member of the church are all one , and is no more but to seem to be a true member of the church of christ , ( commonly called invisible ) or of the true mystical body of christ. answ. to my valedict . orat. pag. . you say you dispute them not out of the invisible church . answ. . but will you yeeld that they are so much as seeming probable members of the invisible church ? if you do , then they are members of the visible , which you deny : for to be a visible member of the church , or a member of the visible church as such , is no more th●n to be a seeming member of the invisible church , or one that we ought to take in probability to be of the invisible church . wherein how mr. b. is mistaken , is shewed in the d . part of this review , sect . . pag. , &c. . ch. . he imag●nes an universal visible church existent , not dissolved ; which is all one as to say , there is or was an universal visible church , consisting of indivi●ual members immortal , or perpetually visible : which mistake of his will come under consideration in that which follows . . ch. . & ch . . he imagines having infants to have been of the essentials of the jewish church . but therein he is mistaken : for though they may be termed substantial parts , yet not essential , ( the jewish church had ben a visible church though there had been no infant in it ) but integral . . ch. . that the nature of the jews church was not repealed , that the jews church was not repealed , ch . . that the law or covenant on which the species or essential form of their church ( and many of its accidents ) was grounded , is not changed or repealed . though the jews are cast off , yet the law and nature of churches is still the same ▪ which speeches , with other more of the like kind , shall be ( god willing ) examin●d in that which follows , and the non-sence and vanity of them shewed . . ch. . that infants visible church-membership did not begin at the institution of circumcision , but rather with the first infant of faithfull adam , though he after fell off . . that this is grounded on a law and covenant of god , which is made higher then that , gen. . . even that gen. . . ch. . yea , he makes it to antecede the fall of adam . ch. . it is said to be of the law of nature to have infants to be a part of a kingdome : and ch . . therefore infants to be church-members . pag. . that infants must be church-members , is partly natural , and partly grounded on the law of grace and faith : as if church constitution were natural , and not by meer institution . . animadv . on mr. bedfords treatise of baptismal regeneration . plain script . proof pag. ● . pag. . and elsewhere he makes the condition of the infants church membership and justification to be wholly without him in the faith of the parent . the falsity of which conceit is shewed by me in the d . part of this review , sect . , . and elsewhere . . that this visible church-membership , notwithstanding the continuance of the parents faith the imagined law and covenant , yet endures not but til they , when they come to years , do themselves make profession . so plain scrip. proof , part . ch . . pag. . he is not to be taken for a christian , who will not visibly by himself when he comes to age ( as he did by his parents in infancy ) publickly profess both his assent to to the fundamental articles of faith , and his consent that the lord onely shall be his god , and christ onely his redeemer , and so his saviour and lord , and promise in heart and life to be true to him accordingly : and i deliver the sacrament to none that will not thus profess and promise . and pag. . he saith , he will not contradict this proposition of davenant , those who in baptism were truly justified , regenerated , and adopted suitable to their infant state ; when they come to the use of reason , are not justified , regenerated , and adopted suitable to the special state of the aged , unless by repenting , believing , and abrenunciation , they fulfil their vow made in baptism . . that there is no other way of admitting visible members now into the church , but by baptism , pag. . . but they are visible members afore baptism according to his tenet , pag. . we and infants are church-members before baptism . . i presume that when he saith , all that ought to be admmitted visible church members , ordinarily ought to be baptized , he means this of christian churches , church members , and admitting into them , not the jewish : for though i find him speak as if the jews church were not repealed , ( as in his non-sence he speaks , ch . . ) that is , as i imagine , in the nature or essence the jewish church visible and the christian were the same , and so they that were admitted into the jewish , are to be admitted into the christian ; which caused me to suspect at the dispute an ambiguity in that expression [ ought to be admitted visible church-members . ] yet i do not imagine that he holds the proposition in this sense , all that ought heretofore to be admitted visible church members in the jewish church distinct from the christian , ordinarily ought then to be baptized afore christs coming ▪ while the jewish church stood : if he should , i should deny it . . that this admission which infants are to have is , as he often speaks , into the visible church : but what this admission into the visible church is , by whom , and unto whom it ought to be , according to mr. bs. judgment , is yet to me uncertain . admission is , according to the common use of i● , the taking in of a person into an office , army , or family , or the like , to perform the work , enjoy the benefit , profit , &c. of such an officer , member , &c. and it is usually done by some officer to whom that business is committed ; and the person upon his admission , and by vertue of it , takes his place , work , benefit , or what else he is admitted to , as his right and due . but i know no such thing in the baptizing of infants . indeed by baptism regularly , a man is admitted to the communion of the church in prayer , hearing , receiving the lords supper , and such other acts of christian communion as belong to visible church-members . but an infant by baptism is not admitted to these prayer and hearing are in some sort allowed to unbaptized persons , and they are admitted to them who are infidels , when infants baptized are sent away as uncapable of them , and disturbers by their crying and playing . the lords supper they are not admitted to by their baptism , till they themselves profess , as mr. b. and other paedobaptists agree ; the being , name , repute of chur●h-members is antecedent to baptism , and therefore they are not admitted to it by baptism . i must confess therefore i do not well know what this admission of infants i● which is by baptism , and i think the proposition in mr. bs. argument to be void of truth or sense , if it be not thus construed : all that ought to be admitted visible church-members are baptized , or , which is all one , ordinarily ought to be baptized afore they are admitted , unless the admission and baptism be one and the same , and then the speech is an inept tautologie , as if he had said : all visible church members that ought to be baptized , ordinarily ought to be baptized . so that now mr. b. may see some reason of my demur about his major proposition , which though it were as plain as he well knew how to express himself , yet there is so much ambiguity in it , that in the sense which the words in any good construction will bear , it is to be denied : but if he understand it in the later sense , the syllogism is nugatory , the minor and the conclusion being the same . nevertheless , as in the dispute i let the major pass , so i shall do in this answer , onely taking notice of some things in his proof of it , and insist upon my denial of the minor . the first argument of mr. b. to prove admission into the visible church is to be by baptism , i approve , and thence conclude against infant baptism thus . if we have neither precept nor example in scripture since christ ordained baptism , of admitting any by baptism as visible members but believer● by profession , then all that must be admitted visible members ordinarily by baptism , must be believ●rs by profession . but since baptism was instituted ( or established ) we have no precept or example in scri●ture of admitting any a● visible members by baptism , but believers by profession . ergo , all that must be admitted visible members must be believers by profession . i know not what in shew of reason can be said to this . for what man ( yet mr. b. and paedobaptists dare ) dare go in a way which hath neither precept nor example to warrant it , from a way that hath full current of both ? yet they that will admit infants into the visible church by baptism do so . if he say there 's precept before , i answer , his own major requires precept or example since christ ordained baptism , and therefore that shift avoids not the retortion of his argument . to what he replies to this argument in his praefestin . morator , sect . . besides what i have said in the d . part of this review , sect . . pag. . . there is enough in the same book , sect . , , &c. to manifest , that infants are not in any scripture disciples appointed to be baptized , matth. . . nevertheless , i find alstedius in his supplement to chamier de natura ecclesiae , cap. . § . . thus writing . baptismus admittit in ecclesiam particularem : sed in ecclesiam catholicam potest aliquis admitti sine baptismo ; quia hanc ad rem sufficit vera fides . and whereas mr. ball in his reply to the answer of the new-ergland elders about the nine positions , pag. . had said , baptism is the seal of our admission into the congregation or flock of christ ; but not evermore of our receiving into this or that particular society as set members thereof : mr. allin rejoyns in his defence , pag. . baptism doth not admit actually into the church , and your own expression secrety implieth as much , when you say , baptism is a seal of our admission into the church or flock of christ : if baptism be the seal of our admission , then there is admission thereunto before baptism : but who doth admit , and where and when is any admitted to the church , but in particular congregations ? ●an any be admitted into a charch , that whole church being ignorant thereof ? fulwood serm . of the church , &c. p ▪ . the children of believers , born in the church are not ( though virtual ) actual members of the visible church before baptism . this i produce , to shew the uncertainty among paedobaptists about admission into the church by baptism , and membership before baptism . like also what mr. b. saith in his d . arg . to be above ordinances is to be above obedience to god , and so gods : and when he saith in his d. the nature and end of baptism , is to be christs listing , engaging sign ; it is a good argument to prove that infant baptism hath not the nature and end of baptism , ●ith it is not christs ( that is , according to his appointment ) listing , engaging sign , the infant neither lists nor engageth himself by it as christ appointed : and when he saith , if it be the use of baptism to engraff and enter us into the body or church , cor. . . and into christ , as rom. . . then sure it must be used at our engraffing and entrance , it rather follows , it is before , sith the means is to be before the end in execution . to what he saith about church-members , disciples , christians , enough hath been said in the d . part of this review , sect . . &c. in his th . argument , having formed an argument from ephes. . . he saith of me . mr. t. in his exercit. objecteth , . that then the thief on the cross , &c. were no church members . answ. it followes not from [ he that is baptized shall be saved ] that therefore he that is not baptized shall not be saved : so here , for the former speaks but ad debitum , and the later de eventu ; it will follow , that it is a duty to baptize all members where it may be done ; but not that it shall certainly come to pass . refut . what i said exercit. pag. . of that text , ephes. . . was not an objection against what mr. b. would evince from the text , but in answer to an argument urged for infant baptism from that text by a london minister , in a conference anno . which argument being drawn from an act or end of christ , which was not onely duty ▪ but his performance : it was urged , that if infants were not baptized , and to be baptized , they belonged not to the church : to which i answered , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by an answerable illation , by the same reason the thief on the cross should not belong to the church because not baptized . that which mr. b. answers is not true , that mark . . the former part speaks but ad debitum , and the later de eventu . for though a duty may be gathered from the subject of the proposition , it being clear , that salvation being promised to the believer baptized , faith and baptism are required duties to that end ; yet the former part of the proposition doth as fully speak of an event as the later part doth . and though ephes. . . it is proved a duty to baptize , as a●so to preach the word , because it is christs way ( in which we are to concur with him ) of clensing his church : yet the clensing of the church with or in the washing of water by the word , doth not note a duty , but an end intended , and event to follow by christs action . mr. b. proceeds . . he objecteth , that therefore it must be understood of the more famous part of the church , or that purification is to be understood of that which is for the most part . answ. the apostle speaks plainly of the whole church ; and to take it for part , is to cross the text , except you shew a necessity for it . . it speaks of all quoad debitum , in regard of the means of it , which they are capable of . . and usually quoad eventum of the said means too . refut . . it cannot be understood of the whole visible church , in which are many reprobates ; for it is that church which christ loved with that peculiar love which is the husbands pattern to love his wife by , for whom he gave himself , that he might sanctifie it , that he might present it to himself glorious , and a church not having spot or wrinkle , or any of such things ; but that it might be holy , and without blemish : which are true onely of that part of the visible , which is also of the invisible church of the elect . . whomsoever it speaks of , [ that he might purifie it in or with the washing of water by the word ] it speaks of the intention of christ ; which being supposed that it is not frustrated , it follows , that those who are said to be purified in or with the washing of water by the word , are all in the event converted by preaching , and baptized with water . which sith it cannot be said of all elect infants , for they are not purified by the word , it must be understood as i say , either by a synocdoche of the whole for the more famous or apparent part ; or else the act is meant of that which is usually done , or for the most part , not what is universally and perpetually . . it is granted , that we may gather thence the duty of preaching the word , and baptizing with water , and that they who are sanctified by preaching are to be purified by baptism , and that this was usual in the event , a known use in the primitive times : but expresly it notes onely christs act , not the ministers duty , which is onely implied , and follows from this , that christ doth it by them ; and it supposeth , that they who are capable of the one , to wit● baptism , are capable of the other , the hearing of the word ▪ for these two are conjunctively put , not dis-junctively either the one or the other , as if some were purified in the washing of water onely , others by the word ; but the same who are purified by the one , are purified by the other . mr. b. adds . object . but some may say , that [ by the word ] is here added , which infants are not capable of ▪ answ. . infants are sanctified by the word of promise and precept to parents to dedicate them to god , though not by the word preached to infants . . the means is to each member as they are capable . washing by water to those that are capable of that , and by the word to those that are capable of that , which blind and deaf men are not any more then infants . ref. there is no word of precept to parents to dedicate infants to god by baptism , though there be to pray for them ; nor do i think m. ● . would allow every parent to dedicate his or her infant to god by baptism , which they must do if there were a precept to them to do it . that there is no such word of promise as entitles every infant of a believer , or any definitely to baptism , much less that appoints parents to dedicate their infants to god by baptism , is amply shewed in this book before . nor can the meaning be , ephes. . of such a sanctification . for . no word of promise , and precept to parents to dedicate them to god , is that which christ doth sanctifie or clense them by , partly because there is none such , partly because the word of precept to parents ( if there were such ) to dedicate them to god , would not clense or sanctifie the infants , it hath no effect on them , nor notes their duty : nor doth the precept sanctifie or clense , but the observing of it ; nor was the parents dedication ever made by god a means to clense or sanctifie the child , as there is meant . nor , were there such a word of promise to a parent , would that of it self sanctifie and clense . . the word there meant , is the word of the gospei preached to those who are said to be clensed by christ. for . all along the n. t. and particularly in that epistle , by [ the word ] is meant the word of the gospel , as it is preached or published . acts . , , . rom. . , , . ephes. . , heb. . . pet. . . luke . . john . . & . , . & . · & . , . & . . & . . acts . . matth . , , , . mark . . & . , , , , , . & . . luke . . & . . & . , , , ; . & . . & . . john . , . & . , , . & . , . & , , , . acts . , . & . , , . & . , , . & . , . & . . & . , , , , , , . & . . & . , , . & . , . & . , . & . . & . . cor. . . & . . & . . cor. . . & . . & . . gal. . . ephes. . . phillip . . . & . . col. . , . & . . & . . thes. . , . & . . thes. . . tim. . . tim. . , . & . . tit. . , & . . heb. . . jam. . , , . pet. . . & . . revel . . & . . & . . & . . . it is the word of the gospel preached or published , by which persons are said to be purified , converted , regenerate , sanctified , john . . & . . acts . . & . . . rom. . . gal. . . ephes. . . jam. . . pet . . not any where by the word of promise barely as made by god , but as it was fulfilled and preached , is christ said to sanctifie or clense his church . and by this , all said to be purified , ephes. . . are clensed , and therefore no infants , who are not at all capable of understanding it , and therefore not so capable of being clensed by it as the blind and deaf . mr. b. yet adds . object . but it is the invisible church that christ is said thus to clense , answ. . certainly those that are washed with water , or hearing the word , or either , are all visible members . . the visible church hath the outward priviledges and titles of the invisible , because as to us they must in prohability be judged to belong to both . therefore paul freq●ently calls them all saints and sons of god by faith , &c. ref. though they be of the visible who are so washed , yet the church ephes. . , , . cannot be meant of the meerly visible ; but onely of them who are so of the visible , that they are also of the invisible , as is proved before from the things said of the church , which agree to none other . and thus mr. b. hath my answer to that ch. and my apprehension of his major ; let 's now view his minor , and try his achilles which he is so confident of . sect . l. the fifth chapter of mr. bs. plain scripture proof &c. part. . is examiand the texts gal. . , &c. matth. . . cleered so as to prove infants now no visible church-members . ch. . he begins thus . though i have many and clear a●guments from the new testament , to prove infants to be members of the visible church , as i shall let you see , god willing , when i come to them ; yet because i think it most orderly to take them before us from the beginning , i wi●l first fetch one from the old testament , and that such as is fully confirmed from the new : for i hope you are none of those who have wiped out all the old testament from your bibles , or that presently look upon a text as no text , if you hear it come from the old testament . answ. i know none at bewdley so erroneous or foolish . but mr. b. may see ( if his high soaring meditations and studies will allow him time to descend to view such a low argument , as hee oft disdainfully speaks ) something written in the d . part of this review , sect. , . which tends to prove that no good argument can be drawn from the old testament for his admission of infants visible church members . and for his many and clear arguments from the new testament to prove infants to be members of the visible church ; he did wisely put in the caution , god willing when i come to them i shall let you see them , to save his credit , though he never shew them . for my part i despair of ever seeing them . as for those i have found brought by him , the chief have been examined in the first and second part of this review , and found impertinent . the dispute that remains to be viewed is so immethodical , that had mr. b. ever been bred up in schools , i am confident he would have been ashamed of it . but i must now follow him in his own track . i therefore , saith he , argue thus ; first , if by the merciful gift and appointment of god , not yet repealed , some infants were once to be admitted members of the visible church , then some infants are to be so admitted still : but by the merciful gift and appointment of god not yet repealed , some infants were once to be admitted members of the visible church : therefore they are so to be admitted still . answ. mr. b. pag. . plainly saith , that by [ admitting ] he means solemn admitting , that since baptism was instituted ( or established ) we have no precept or example of admitting visible members any other way , that as a souldier before listing , and as a king before crowning and taking his oath , so are we and infants church-members before baptism : he saith pag. . of this argument , i will first fetch you one from the old testament . whence . it is apparent that his visible church membership and admitting visible church-members , are not the same . . that a merciful gift and appointment of god of visible church-membership is not a●l one with the merciful gift and appointment of god of admission of visible church-members . . that a merciful gift and appointment of god of admitting visible church-members , is by some solemn rite . which is confirmed in that he speaks of admitting visible church-members , as a duty to be performed by some persons , as when he saith ch . . ought to be admitted visible church members , and in this place were once to be admitted visible church-members . visible church-membership might be and was a gift of god , not a duty , ( which is some action to be done by man ) but a state or relation resulting from the foundation , or cause , or reason of it . now if mr. b. cannot shew ( as i am confident he cannot ) any other gift or appointment of god of admitting infants visible church members in the old testament unrepealed , besides that of circumcision , then either his antecedent ( as hee terms it ) must be meant of it , or else he mocks the people of god with a pretended merciful gift and appointment of god of admitting infants visible church-members unrepealed , which is no where extant , but is fained by himself to delude them : and if it be that of ci●cumcision , then his minor asserts the appointment of circumcision , and h●s conclusion is , that our infants are still to be circumcised . nor can i , with all my enquiry and study , conceive ( if he had understood himself ) he could mean any other . for by his making admission solemn , comparing it with listing of a souldier , crowning of a king , it is manifest that he understood it of a solemn rite ; and speaking of it as a thing that ought to be , he must mean it of an act to be performed by man ; and limiting it now to baptism , he intimates it was by some rite answerable to baptism heretofore , which i hardly think any learned man but would conceive must be meant of circumcision and no other , sith no o●her was appointed by god to infants for admission of them as visible church-members . it is true , he often , when i pressed him in the dispute to speak plainly whether he meant by his appointment or law unrepealed that of circumcision , did deny it , and distinguished between the law of infants visible church-membership and that of circumcision ; but he never shewed me a law of infants admission as visible church members besides it . and in his arguments whereby he proves the not repealing , he concludes about the not repealing of the law of infants visible church-membership , not of their admission . of which fallacy i had in the dispute some obscure apprehension , and therefore pressed him so often to speak plainly , and told him he must mean it of circumcision , ( which fact of mine mr. b. did in the dispute , and doth here ch . . represent as defective in tenderness of conscience , fear of god , love of truth , charity to a brother , common modesty , after his usual fashion of making out-cries without cause , ) but could not then c●ear it , having not then so well understood his opinion , nor his shifting of the terms , nor being able to shew it for want of a notary , and time to view his arguments , he being also very quick in urging and pressing me to answer , without allowing time to weigh his arguments : and therefore after much altercation concerning his meaning , gave way to his proof of the law of visible church-membership unrepealed , and neglected to keep him to the proof of the law of admission unrepealed , to mine and the causes great disadvantage . whether mr. b. did fraudulently or ignorantly manage the dispute , belongs to god to judge ; though i must needs say , that i did then , and do still suspect he was not free from deceit , or dolus malus in it : finding in a copy i have of the dispute , that he distinguished then between visible church membership and admission . as for my self , had i perceived so clearly as now i do , his mind about the kind of visible church-membership and admission of infants he asserts , i should have stuck to this , that though infants could have been proved visible church members , according to the law he pretends unrepealed ; yet were they not to be admitted by baptism , which is appointed onely for visible church-members by profession of faith : and therefore whereas he saith he contends more for infants visible church membership then baptism , and makes tha● the very heart of the controversie , i conceive otherwise , and do let him understand , that were it not that i know that he hath very much abused me and others in that which follows , i should think my tenet not overthrown , nor much regard it , though his law of infants visible church-membership were yeelded , and my answer to his arguments omitted . but sith things are as they are , i resolve to go on . the antecedent ( saith he ) hath two parts . . that by gods merciful gift and appointment some infants were once to be admitted members of the visible church : this is as far beyond all doubt as you can expect . . mr. t. granted it in his publick dispute : and so he doth in his apology , pag. . where he saith [ i acknowledge that in the visible church of the jews , the infants were reckoned to the church ] yet lest any should be so impudent as to deny it , i briefly prove it thus . . if infants were part of them that entred into covenant with the lord god , and into his oath , that he might stablish them for a people to himself , and he might be to them a god ; then infants were part of the church : but the former is plain , in deut. . , , . to any that will read it . therefore infants were part of the church . answ. what i did i still grant , that infants were part of the jewish church , and were circumcised ; but the conclusion mr. b. infers from deut. . , , . is not that which mr. b. should prove . for it is not all one to say , infants were part of the church , and by gods mercifull gift and appointment some infants were once to be admitted members of the visible church . nor doth deut. . , , . prove either infants were part of the church , or their admission . their entring into covenant was not by any act of their own , but by the elders or parents , who in like manner covenanted for the unborn , v. . who could not thereby be visible church-members , being not then existent ; and therefore the covenant there made them not vis●ble church-members . nor is there any proof of their admission thence , they were admitted either after or before , the covenanting was not their admission , for admission is the act of some person that hath that trust or office commited to him ; but their covenanting was the p●rsons own act , and if it did admit the infants , then it did admit the parents , elders , captains , and so they did admit themselves , which is absurd ; and the establishing them for a people to himself , is no more then as piscator rightly schol. in deut. . . that he might require from thee the worship of himself by obedience towards his precepts , and so may binde thee to himself . so the obligation of the people precedes , and he might be to thee a god , that is may in like manner promise to thee that he will follow thee with his grace , and do thee good and so make thee happy . so gods promise followes . it was a covenant neither to make nor admit them visible church members , but to engage them to obedience , and to assure them thereupon of protection and blessing : and this extended to their posterity v. . who could not be then visible church-members , or admitted then as being not existent . . saith mr. b. if infants were engaged to god by the seal of his covenant ( circumcision ) then they were members of his church : but some infants were so engaged : therefore they were church members ; this is all undeniable . i never yet met with any that denied either . answ circumcision is not stiled in scripture the seal of the covenant , but i grant that infants were members in the jewish church visible , admitted by circumcision , and engaged thereby though not by their own act , yet according to gods injunction and severe exaction to keep the law , and t●is is the onely proof of their admission mr. b. brings out of the old testament . he adds , if infants were part of those that were baptized to moses in the cloud and sea , and drank the spiritual drink , even of that rock which was christ , then sure they were part of the visible church : but the antecedent is plain cor. . , , . they were all baptized , &c. answ. i deny the antecedent to be plain , cor. . , , . and have proved the contrary to be true , in the d . part of this review sect. . whither i refer the reader : . saith he , the martyr stephen calleth that assembly , whereof they were members [ the church in the wilderness ] acts . . therefore they were church members . answ. the conclusion and proof is granted , but i observe that the conclusion to be proved is altered from this [ by gods merciful gift and appointment , some infants were once to be admitted members of the visible church ] into this [ infants were church members , part of the visible church . ] the d . part of his antecedent , which he saith is the onely thing i deny , and which the whole weight of this argument lieth on , is [ that this merciful gift of god to infants , and ordinance of church membership is not repealed ] and he saith he hath here the negative , and the proof lies not on him yet he will examine my proofs , and then prove the negative by a multitude of evident arguments from the scripture , that he hath shewed scripture not questioned for it , and that he may justly expect plain scripture or argument to prove the repeal of that law. answ. he hath shewed no plain scripture , nor any argument for a law or ordinance that infants are , were or shall be visible church-members of which i need prove a repeal , though i grant he hath proved a law or ordinance for the admission of infants by circumcision , which is the onely law or ordinance i finde in him , either for infants visible church-membership or their admission , and if he hold it unrepealed , i can quickly prove the contrary . nevertheless i follow him in his wild goose race . and first , saith he , i expected some plain scripture . . because it must be a plain word of god onely that can prove the repeal of any part of his word , and mens reasonings may as likely prove vain in this as any thing , if they be not grounded upon plain scripture . and . because i deal with those men that call for plain scripture proof of infant baptism from us : therefore did i over , and over , and over , desire mr. t. to bring some word of god to prove the repeal of infants church-membership . but what text do you think he brought ? in his publike dispute he never offered to name one text : nay , in his sermon which he preached after upon deliberation , he never offered to name one text in all the bible , to prove that god hath repealed infants church-membership . is not this enough to make his cause suspicious ? nay , i am confident he cannot bring one text for it . answ. and i have long expected from mr. b. some plain scripture in which i might see any such law or ordinance distinct from circumcision for infants visible church-membership and admiss●on , which i might consider wh●ther it be repealed or no● , or capable of a repeal or not . . because it must be a plain word of god onely that can prove such a law , and mens reasonings ( as it will appear in the examining them mr. bs. are ) may as likely prove as vain in this as any thing , if they be not grounded upon plain scripture . and . because i deal with those men , particularly mr. b. that pretend plain scripture proof for infants church membership and baptism , but to those that justly call for such , bring no express precep● or example of infants baptism in the n. t. ( which alone can be counted plain scripture p●oof in this thing ) but consequences from circumcision and the jewish church-state , which have no validity but on the grant of such suppositions as are false ; yea in these mens disputes against papists , and prelates , and others , are rejected ; and yet they are so extreme blinde as to think , and so impudent as to bear the people in hand , these are plain scripture proofs of infants church-membership and baptism . and therefore did i over and over and over desire mr. b. to bring me some word of god for such a law . but what text do you think he brought ? in his publike dispute he never once offered to name one text : nay , in his praesest . morator sect . . printed some few years after upon deliberation he brings none , though pressed by me in my praecursor . nevertheless , sith m. b. forceth me to it , i determine , as i have done to others , so to si●● mr. bs. allegations 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . he goes on in his venemous way thus . what if mr. t. should use magistrates as he doth infants ( as former anabaptists have done ) hath he not as good ground ? and would they take it well ? may he not as well say , when i shew him scripture in the old testament for magistrates in the church , and being gods people [ that it was from the peculiar state of the jews : god hath set up no magistrates of christians in the church now ] would not our magistrates bid him bring some scripture to prove the repeal , or else they shall take their old testament commission for currant ? and let him bring me any more scripture to prove the repeal of infants visible church-membership , then is brought to prove the repeal of magistrates in the church if he can : ( o how just is it with god , that those magistrates who favour , countenance and cherish those men , that would keep all christians infants out of the church , should by the same men be put out themselves , both of church and state ? ) answ. what anabaptists in former times did or held , it is hard to say , sith we have the narration of their facts and tenents onely from their adversaries . notwithstanding augustines reckoning jovinian among heretiques , and hieromes invectives against vigilantius , yet learned protestants have excused or defended both . dr. reynold conference with hart , ch . . div . . jewels defence of the apol. field of the church book ch . , . cracanthorp vindic . eccl. anglic. contra spalat . andr. revet . sum . contr . tom . . quest . . &c. mr. b. himself would not pass without a deep censure , if the writings of mr. crandon , mr. eyre , dr. kendal , &c. should bee taken for good proof of his tenets . it is much harder , and indeed a most injurious thing , that the conceived opinions and practises of men of former times , should be charged on antipaedobaptists now who do disclaim them . and as for this spiteful passage of mr. b. though i have said enough to answer it in the d . part of this review sect . . yet i add . that i have not so good ground to deny christian magistracy as infants visible church-membership , that i have scripture to prove the repeal ( if it must bee so called ) of the pretended visible church-membership of infants , which was onely in the jewish national church now dissolved , and another frame erected by christ : but not so of the magistracy which was not proper to the jewish people . melchisedech was a king , job was a magistrate job , &c. civil magistracy as the power of parents , and masters , are of the law of nature and nations , christ and his apostles did not alter the state of magistracy , but left them as they found them , and confirmed them ; sundry converted governours kept their place after conversion : bu● the visible church-membership of infants was onely in the jewish church , the frame of which is quite altered by christ and his apostles , and not the least hint given of any infants being in or solemn admission into the christian visible church , but much to the contrary in the new testament . we keep infants out of the church no otherwise then christ and his apostles did , and if magistrates do favour , countenance and cherish us in this , they do but cherish us in the doing of what the apostles of christ did , and m. b. that doth animate the magistrates to molest us , and in his th . humble advice to the parliament decemb. . . would have us deprived of all pastoral cure having the publique maintenance , doth shew his minde to persecute us , and by his grounds had conceived himself bound in conscience to have dealt so with the apostles , if hee had been in their dayes . but o how good is god to us , and just to him and such as he is , that the madness of such a balaam is rebuked , his advice rejected as injurious , and pernicious , tending to take away that liberty of examining things rece●ved , and to impose on mens consciences new subscriptions and conformities , as intollerable as those the prelates urged , and consequently shutting out light from shining , and inducing persecution afresh ; and that he and such as he is , who are partial in gods law , prophaning , yea quite changing or dissolving the prime solemn ordinance of christ , and opposing ( contrary to their solemn covenant ) the reformation of that abuse , should be made contemptible before all the people ! mal. . . mr. b. adds , yet in private i confess he cited two texts to prove the repeal of gods ordinance and merciful gift , that infants should be church-members : and i will read the two places to you ( which private conference i would not mention , but lest it should be thought a wrong to him to overpass his onely proofs ) the first was gal. . , , , , . when i considered that such a man should deny all infants church-membership , and affirm that god hath repealed that his ordinance , and merciful gift , and have no more scripture for it then such as this , and yet be so confident , it maketh me amazed . hath he not a good wit , that can prove that christ hath repealed his merciful gift , because he hath redeemed us from under our bondage and tutorage ? or that he hath shut out all infants from his church , because he hath delivered them from the inconveniences of their minority ? if i had no better proof then this for infant baptism , i should be ashamed once to open my mouth for it . answ. had mr. b. any true love , or justice towards me , as he seems to have by his pretended loathness to mention my private conference , he had not so often and with such false calu●niatory inferences mentioned in his writings what past in private conference concerning my censure of mens not receiving the doctrine of antipaedobaptism , my plea for plurality of places , &c. whereby he hath done what in him lay , to defame me as proud covetous , schismatical , and given over by god to a reprobate minde , though there was no necessity of such divulgings . but much experience hath taught me to expect no better usage from an intemperate zelot for his opinion , though a pretended friend and seeming godly , then from an open enemy . mr. b. is amazed that i alledged gal. . , , , , . as i did , and but that i have learned nil admirari of such passages , i should be amazed at his dealing with me , in setting down my proofs , though they were but in a private conference without study . the thing of which he urged me to prove the repeal , i remember not whether it were of the visible church-membership of infants , or of their admission . the latter was it , the repeal of which he denied ; for so was his antecedent [ by the merciful gift and appointment of god not yet repealed , some infants were once to be admitted members of the visible church ] and this is proved plainly from gal. . , &c. that the ordinance of admission ( which was no other then circumcision ) of infants is repealed ; yea , if that explication of beza , legem enim ( id est totam illam legalem oeconomiam ) dicit fuisse instar tutoris sive curatoris ad certum tempus dati , thus englished in the new annot. for hee saith that the law , that is the whole government of gods house according to the law , was as it were a kinde of tutorship or office of an overseer appointed for a time , be right , the church-membership visible of infants ( which was peculiar to the jews , and belonged to the legal church-state ) is plainly limited in that place to a certain time now expired , and consequently the ordinance of such church-membership ( if there had been such ) repealed . and i say , that if he had so good proof for his infant baptism , as this is for the repeal of his pretended ordinance of infants admission and visible church-membership unrepealed , i would plead for it as he doth . but mr. b. as one that ha●h a good wit , can by his chymistry prove hence his non repeal . nay , saith he , i pray you do but consider , whether his own proof be not sufficient against him ● doth not this text plainly tell us , that the heir in his minority is lord of all ? and so approve of the natural birth priviledge of our children in civil things ? and will god then deny children to be heirs of any thing , and bereave them of their spiritual or church-priviledge , and neither tell us why he doth it , nor that he doth it . answ. gods heirs are but co-heirs with christ ▪ rom. . true believers or elect persons , who are not deprived by me of any truely so called spiritual church priviledge . the priviledge of infants visible church-membership as it came with the spiri●ual church-state of abrahams family , so it ceased with the dissolution thereof , of which god hath given us reason in that it was but for an appointed time by god , which as it began with gods special love to abraham ; so it ended upon his loathing his unbelieving posterity , and setting his love on the gentiles . again , saith he , more plainly : if christ came to free the heir from his bondage and tutorage onely , and from the servitude of his minority ; is it likely that he came to free them from their church-membership ? can any man think that this was any part of the ●ondage ? require those whose consciences are not wholly enslaved to their fancies and conceits , to judge of this soberly , whether they can possibly think it a bondage to be a member both of the universal church and of a particular ! let them not here tell me that circumcision was a bondage ▪ or that the law was a tutor ; for i speak of none of these , but of their being members of the church of god. answ. whom mr. b. means by person whose consciences are wholly enslaved to their fancies and conceits i cannot determine , i know few men who give me more cause of fear that they are such then mr. b. who seems to me to have more conceits and ●ancies then one , and those with so much pertinacy and violent zeal promoted , as ( me thinks ) searce agree to a sober man. for my self i say , that such a visible church-membership as the infants of the jews had , in my soberest judgement , i not onely can possibly think ( which mr. b. himself also may do , sith it implies no contradiction ) but do verily think to have been a part of the imperfect state of the church , and in some respect of the bondage . for though churchmembership be a priviledge of it self , yet comparatively , and in respect of some consequents attending it , as namely subjection to the whole law of moses , it is a manifest imperfection and bondage . as the state of the apostles was a state of minority , bondage , imperfection , while christ was on earth in comparison of the estate after his ascension , when the spirit was powred out upon them john , . and i doubt not to affirm that christ came to free his whole church from that visible church-membership it had then , by natural descent , and consequently to alter the visible , church membership of infants into a more perfect way , by setting up a church throughout the world , not by carnal descent in one nation , but in a spiritual way by faith in christ , through the pre●ching of the gospel . and i must tell mr. b. of circumcision and the law , it 's bondage and tutorage ( whether it like him or not ) sith infants had no where else visible church-membership then in the jewish church , whereby they were in bondage to circumcision and the law. nor can i tell what ordinance of admitting visible church-members unrepealed he means , besides that of circumcision , and therefore he must speak of these if he speak of the visible church-membership in the jewish church which had these annexed . . yet further , saith he , when this text tels us that christ came to redeem us from under the law , and the bondage of minority , is it not a clear proof that he hath brought us into a far better state then we were in before ? and hath advanced us in his family , as the heir at age is advanced ? and can any man of common sence and conscience expound this of his casting all their infants out of his family ? christs church is his family ; and doth the heir use to be freed by being cast out of the family ? why may he not as well say , that all the body of the jewish nation are now delivered by being cast out of the church or family of christ ? is it not more agreeable to the scope of the apostle here to affirm , that certainly they are so far from being turned out of the family or church of christ , that by christ they are now brought into a far higher state , and made members of a far better church , then that particular church of the jews was . answ. it is true , christ hath advanced his church into a far better state then it was in before , and that is the reason why infants are left out ( i say not cast out ) of his visible church . for whereas the particular church of the jews ( in which alone infants were visible church-members ) was as well a civil commonwealth as a church of god , and was by descent of birth , and by proselytism made up of all in the commonwealth ; it seemed good to god to make his church more spiritual , consisting onely of them who owned christ as their lord ; and therefore till infants do so , they are no parts of the visible church christian. and thus men of common sence and tender consciences may and must expound the apostle , it being agreeable to his scope , if they will speak rightly : and the body of the jewish nation , i mean the greatest or most considerable part , if embracing the gospel they had been baptized , their children being not baptized till they professed , had been rightly said to be delivered from the minority and bondage they were in before in the sense before declared . mr. b. adds . . and if any yet say , that it is not the infants , but onely the parents that are thus advanced by christ to a better state , is not this text plain against him ? for the apostle extendeth redemption here to those that were under the law ; and who knoweth not that infants were under the law ? and if it did not belong to each individual under the law , yet it cannot in any tolerable sence be denied to belong to each species or age ; ( yet i can prove , that conditionally this deliverance was to each individual person in the sense as god sent his son jesus to turn every one of them from their iniquity , act. . last . ) and now judge i pray , whether this be not a pittifull ground for men to prove the repeal of gods mercifull gift and ordinance of infants church-membership . answ. that which i say is , that the particular church of the jews being dissolved , a church of a better constitution is by god erected , and so the church of god is advanced by christ into a better state , that is , from carnal to spiritual , which necessitates the leaving infants out of the visible church christian , till they be disciples or believers : and this is a better estate to infants as well as parents , sith that church-state did engage them to circumcision and the law , which were their bondage . nevertheless mr. bs. proof is not to be allowed : for it follows not , redemption is extended to those that were under the law , therefore to each individual , or to each species or age , the term being indefinite , and the speech true if any under the law , and those of one species or age be redeemed ; as in like sort , when god is said to choose the poor , the weak things of this world , this proves not universal election of the poor , or weak , sith the terms being indefinite , they need not be understood universally except in necessary matter . i remember once in a dispute it was urged thus for universal redemption , christ came to redeem them that were under the law , all are under the law , ergo . to which i answered by denying the minor , producing gal. . . rom. . , &c. though i might h●ve answered also by denying the indefinite term to contain all . but if mr. bs. reasoning be good that it cannot in any tolerable sence he denied to belong to each species or age because they were under the law , it will follow , that it cannot be denied in any tolerable sence to each jew , for they were under the law , and then it will follow tha● the jews were universally redeemed that they might re●eive the adoption of sons . and it seems by his words in his parenthesis , mr. b. holds a conditional deliverance for each individual person meant gal. . . concerning which , besides what i have said before , sect. , , . i adde this censure of mr. john collings , provoc . provocatus in answer to boatman , ch . . pag. . universal redemption ; conditional covenant . two covenants , one absolute , another conditional , are notions in divinity i do not understand , and think them hardly reconcilable to truth , ( if to sense , ) they are the canting language of those that would supply franciscus de sancta clara's pla●e , as to reconciling us and arminians , and are no better then arminianism minced for the better digestion . but those words of mr. b. that god sent his son jesus to turn every one of them from their iniquities , acts . last , in the sense he can prove ( as he thinks ) that conditionally this deliverance was for each individual person , do import that he holds that christ was sent not onely for universal redemption conditionally , but also for universal conversion conditionally . which if true , then christ blesseth all by turning every one from his iniquity , acts . . conditionally ; and then unless he can assign another condition then the act of a mans free-will , he must hold universal grace of conversion , and conversion by christs blessing conditional upon the concurrence of mans free-will , which is indeed the venome of arminianism . which if mr. b. hold ( as his words import ) i may well say he stands on pitifull ground , a very quagmire , however men judge of my proof from gal. . . &c. of the repeal of the pretended ordinance of infants church-membership . mr. b. proceeds . but one text more was named , and that is my text , matth. . , . go disciple all nations , &c. is not this brave proving the repeal before mentioned ? what saith this text to any such matter ? answ. the first question hath so much insolent folly , that i think fit to give no answer to it . to the second i say , . this text compared with mark . . proves , that christ appointed after his resurrection , that his church should be gathered in all nations by preaching the gospel , and baptizing , and no otherwise ; and consequently , the church not gathered this way is not agreeable to christs institution . the forepart of the antecedent is plain ; for as pareus rightly paraphraseth the words , com. in mat. . . christs words have this sense , make to me disciples , gather to me a church among all nations by your preaching bringing them to the faith of the gospel . and piscat . observ . matth. . . by the coherence of the sentences it is signified , first by the doctrine of the gospel the nations were to be brought into the church , then to be baptized when they should enter into the church and profess the faith . and that neither the institution of christ , nor practise of the n. t. allows any other way of gathering the church , is proved in the d . part of this review , sect . . &c. . i say this text excludes infants from being baptized , as is proved in the same place , and consequently from being visible members of the christian church . the antecedent is confirmed from mr. bs. words , plain scrip. proof , &c. against mr bed. pag. , . where he proves from mat. . . mark . . &c. that in the institution and every example of baptism through all the bible , the first grace is pre-requisite as a condition , which he makes to be faith included in the term [ disciple . ] the consequence is also proved from mr. bs. assertion , plain scrip. proof , &c. par. . ch . . pag. , . and elsewhere , proved from mat. . . all visible ch●rch members are to be baptized . whence i infer , all visible members of the christian church are to be baptized . no infant is to be baptized . therefore no infant is a visible member of the christian church . now if no infants are now visible members of the christian church , and the church which is gathered without making disciples by preaching the gospel first to them , and then baptizing them , is not agreeable to christs institution , then christ hath repealed the gift and ordinance of visible church-membership of infants . i expect now some brave answer from mr. b. to these plain arguments without any bravery . but what do i meet with . nay , saith he , i am confident the contrary will be proved from this text also : for if it be nations that must be discipled and baptized , certainly all infants can never be excluded , but must needs some of them at least be included . i do not believe that men were to be made disciples by force ; nor that all were disciples when the king or greater part were so : but that the apostles commission was to disciple nations ; this is their work which they should endeavour to accomplish : and therefore this was a thing both possible and desirable : therefore when the parents are by teaching made disciples , the children are thereby discipled also : as if a woman escape drowning , the child in her body escapes thereby , yet this is not by any natural cause , but by force of gods grant or covenant . answ. though mr. bs. confidence , and his foolish admirations and exclamations have taken much with the shallow and heedless both ministers and people of this age , yet they appear ridiculous to me . his speeches in this place are but dictates , that if nations be to be discipled , infants cannot be excluded ; that because they were to endeavour the discipling all nations , therefore infants ; that when the parents are by teaching made disciples , the children are discipled also : all which i deny , and have demonstrated to be false so fully in the d . part of this review , sect . . &c. that i shall as soon expect the snow be proved black , as any of them proved by mr. b. or any other . his similitude is frivolous , no child being included in the parent in respect of discipling , as the child in the womb is in respect of drowning . if it were , then also in respect of baptizing , so that if the mother with child be baptized , the child also is baptized as wel as discipled , and then baptism of such infants after would be rebaptization . such a grant or covenant , by force of which infants are made disciples is a meer figment . if infants were made disciples by a covenant , it must be of god to them , wherein he promiseth it to them upon their parents bei●g discipled ; and if so , then they are discipled ere they be born , and consequently not made disciples by the apostles , and so no part of the nation to be discipled by them , nor they to endeavour their discipling unless they should actum agere , do what is already done ; whence it will follow , that they had no commission to disciple or baptize infants , for they had no commission to disciple by gods covenant , or to baptize such disciples , but those who were made by their preaching disciples ; and as mr collings saith truly in his provoc . provoc . ch . . pag. . the apostles notwithstanding that precept , matth. . , . did not think themselves obliged to baptize any , but such as believed and confessed their sins mr. b. adds . when all that dwelt at lydda and saron were turned to the lord , the whole cities , infants and all , were discipled . answ. though our last translation read acts . . and all that dwelt at lydda and saron saw him , and turned to the lord ; yet in the greek , and agreeably the vulgar , beza , &c. and all that dwelt at lydda and saron saw him , who turned to the lord ; which seems to import , that all they who turned to the lord saw him , and so [ they that saw him ] is limited by [ them turned to the lord , ] which is not to be said of infants . but were the reading retained as it is in our last translation , yet it is a gross conceit of mr. b. to apply this to infants . for it is said of these , . that they saw aeneas cure . . that they were converted to the lord. . that by seeing the cure of aeneas they were moved to turn to the lo●d , as piscator in his sch●lie saith , to wit , moved by t●e miraculous healing of aeneas by peter . now to affirm these thing● of infants , is in my apprehension ( however it be in mr. bs. ) against common sense . besides me thinks mr. b. should not be ignorant that fre●uently in the scripture such expressions wherein the word [ all ] is used ; are limited to a greater part , and those of years the matter so requiring it , as matth. . . & . . acts . , &c. mr. b. adds . how can christ bid them , go and disciple all nations , if infants and so all the nation are utterly uncapable of being disciples ? or how will mr. t. expound the word all nations ? answ. had mr. b. heeded the words of the . section of the first part of my examen , or the th . section of the postscript to my apology in answer to mr. bl. he might have found answer to these questions . but i conceive upon very probable signes mr. b. never studied my writings , but lightly read them , and i finde he hath dealt with me in like manner concerning my answers in the dispute at bewdley , and such passages as he excepts against which fell from me in private conference , and that this is the reason of these and many more unnecessary questions he puts me to answer . but if the reader please to read the d . part of t●is review sect . , &c. he may see a full answer to these questions , the sum whereof is this ; that christ bids them go , and by preaching the gospel mark. . . make disciples of or out of all nations , and then baptize them , who by believing the gospel became disciples , mark. . . which may and must be understood with exclusion of infants , as when he bids them preach the gospel to every creature mark. . . & col . . it was preached to every creature under heaven , yet no infant meant . and by way of retortion , i do s●riously ask mr. b. how he will expound the word all nations ? and how christ can bid them disciple infants without making christ a fool and a tyrant in commanding that which is ridiculous and impossible ? mr b saith of me further . he oft saith , it is here one and there one out of a city or nation that god will call : i shall say more to the shame of this speech afterwards : yet let me say this much at present . if it bee but some few ▪ or here and there one , yea or but the most that christ commandeth to disciple , then we must endeavour to make but those few or most disciples ( for our endeavour must not go beyond our command and commission ) but this is most horrid doctrine , and notoriously false , [ that apostles and ministers ought not to endeavour the discipling of all , but of some . ] ( for paul oft professeth his longing and endeavour to the contrary : ) therefore it is as false that the command is not for the discipling all . answ. what mr. b. hath said to the shame of my speech plain scripture proof , &c. pag. , . ( which is i think the place hee means ) is to the shame of so impudent an affronting of plain scripture proof refelled in my praecursor sect . . which shame is not at all covered by hi● reply in his praefestinis morator sect . . in which he doth not at all answer my proof out of scripture for my speech , but onely seeks to acquit himself from that which i charge him with as not rightly setting down my words , which is his frequent fault . two parts of my speech he excepts against , . that god will not call nor ever did , a whole nation so as that every individual should be within the visible church . against this he refers to his addition pag. . . and there he turns me over to mr. hudson , and refers me to the answering of him when i answer the th . chapter of the first part of his plain script . &c. but many of the texts , and consequently the rest are shewed to bee impertinently alledged , in the d . part of this review sect . . ( where pag. . i was mistaken in what i said , i know not what is in mr. bs. addition pag. , . thinking then it had been some addition which was not in his first edition , which now i finde otherwise ) and therefore if i say no more of that , the reader will not want an answer to the allegations in his addition pag. , . . he excepts against what he conceives i say [ that apostles and ministers ought not to endeavour the discipling of all , but of some ] which he terms horrid doctrine and notoriously false . on the otherside if my meaning be rightly understood , to wit , of persons that have not the use of reason , such as in●ants , natural fools , &c. i aver the contrary doctrine to be horrid and notoriously false , for the reasons fore-given . if he charge me with it , that because i say god will not call a whole nation ( which i mean of effectuall call alluding to cor. . , , &c. ) therefore i mean that we should endeavour to disciple none but such , his charge is but a calumny . no words of mine either in pulpit w●iting , or private speech , tended to such a sense . as for what he saith , paul oft professeth his longing endeavour to the contrary , if he mean contrary to my assertion , it is most false . he no where professeth his longing and endeavour to disciple the whole of a nation , even the infants . the profession he makes philip. . . is the fullest and likeliest to be meant by mr. b. that comes to my thoughts , which it were ridiculous to apply to infants , [ they all ] being the same to whom he wrote entituled , saints in christ v. . with whom he had fellowship in the gospel v. . in whom god had begun a good work v. . who in his bonds and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel were partakers of his grace v. . whose love he mentions v. . thus much for the proof of which mr. b. was confident . to his words . if this [ my alleaging gal. . , &c. matth. ● . . as before ] be not to feign god to say what we would have him ; yea contrary to what he doth say , then i am quite mistaken . i answer , i grant it , and add that i do not call to minde that ever i found a man of so much fame , and confidence , so fouly mistaken as mr. b. is in this point . i proceed as fast as i can after m. b. who hath made the way foul by his scribling . sect . li. the arguments from the altering of the jewish church constitution and call , the ceasing of the high priest , &c. to prove infants now no visible church-members are made good against mr. bs. th . ch. plain , &c. part . . but let us hear , saith he , whether his arguments be any clearer then these texts for him . the sum of all his arguments , that i can hear , is this : if the church constitution whereof they were members be taken down , then their membership is taken down : but the church &c. therefore &c. to prove the antecedent this is added : if their church call be altered , then their church constitution is altered : but their church call i● altered , therefore , &c. to prove the minor , he shews the different calls then and now . . then they were called by moses or abraham ▪ ●he magistrate ; but now by ministers . . then all the nation was called in one way , even servants and all ; but now god cal● here one and there one . besides he shews , that the temple priesthood , sacrifices are taken down and therefore the church constitution . this is the very strength of all that mr. t. hath to say , to prove the repeal of gods merciful ordina●ce of infants church membership . and i cannot chuse but say , they are silly souls , and tractable to novel●y , and easily seduced from the truth of god and far from the stability of judicious tender conscienc't christians , who will be drawn by such misty , cloudy arguing , without any scripture proof ; yea and against so much scripture . answ. and i cannot chuse but say that mr. bs. dealing is dis●ingenuous and sop●istical ▪ in sore ●a●ling readers by such censures , which are the mere evaporations of his own ignoranc● and confidence , and i might add arrogance . but to the argument . i deny that this is the very strength of all that i have to say to prove the repeal , or that it is cloudy , misty arguing , against any scripture , but from it . the argument is ta●en from the notation of the word church , put into the definition of it by the generality of divines , yea by mr. b. himself plain scrip. proof , &c. pag. , ● , that the greek word for church is from calling out , and that the church is a peo●le or a society of persons called out of the world . whence it follows , that they who are not called out of the world are not of the church , they that have not an outward call , are not of the visible church : but infants have not the outward call of the christian church , therefore are not visible members in the christian church . the minor is proved from the proper call of the christian church , which is proved negatively not to be as the jewish church , . by authority , . of a whole people together . . affirmatively by assigning . the onely way of outward call in the christian church to be by preaching the gospel , . that this call is of single pe●sons severed in their habitations , relations , &c. the former is proved by story . two remarkable outward calls there were of the church of israel , one by abraham , and that was gen. . ( perhap● there was some other , but no other occurs to me ) and that was according to gods direction by authority , taking in all his house together , not by preaching as the apostles did . the other of moses exod. &c. which was done in like manner . the later is proved by institution and practise to be seen in these and many more scriptures , ephes. . , , &c. acts . , . act. . , &c. but of this which is the onely outward churchcal infants are not the subjects , therefore neither of visible churchmembership , which is always this way and no other in the christian churches . this is further confirmed from those scriptures which deny the new-birth necessary to admission into the christian church to be by humane generation ( which it must bee if it bee as the jewish church-membership was ) as joh. . . and ascribe it even in jews themselves to the word jam. . . pet. . . it is further confirmed in that the distinction of the church visible and invisible , is from their different calling . they are not of the invisible who are not inwardly called , they are not of the visible who have not the outward call . primum illud quod actu ecclesiam constituit , est vocatio : unde etiam & nomen suu● accipit & definitionem . hudson vindic . p. . exte●nal vocation and submission gave right in foro ecclesiae to be admitted members of the church . ecclesia enim est caetus hominum vocatorum cor. . . cum . . ames medul ▪ th. l. . c. . § . . . but infants have not the outward call , they are not brought into the church by the word . therefore they are not visible church-members . what saith mr. b. now ? you must distinguish between the particular church of the jews , and the universal visible church . and here i lay down these three propos●tions . . the jews church was not the whole universal visible church that god had then in the world . and this he alleageth as my opinion with others and confirms it by sundry arguments . answ. though the assembly at westminster say confess . of faith ch . . art . . the visible church , which is also catholick or universal under the gospel ( not confined to one nation , as before under the law ) consists , &c. yet i agree with mr. b in his proposition though not in all his proofs . for the text gen. . . proves not the continuance of the church in any of abrahams posteri●y but those by isaac , nor do , the instances of bethuel , hiram , the ninivites , candace queen of the ethiopians , evince a church of god distinct from the jewish . his d . proposition is , if the jewish church had been the whole visible church , yet it would have been con●●derable in both respects ; both as the jewish church and as the universal , whic● 〈◊〉 pass . his third is . there is no member of any particular church , who is not also a member of the universal church : therefore infants were members of the universal visible church as well as of the jews particular church ; so that if it could be proved that their membership in that particular church is overthrown , yet that is nothing to prove that they have lost their standing in the universal church . but this shall fullier improve and vindicate her after . answ. it is much to prove they have lost their standing in the universal , if they had no standing in the universal distinct from that in the particular : as an excommunicate , apostate , &c. hath lost his standing in the universal visible church , if he have no standing therein distinct from that in the particular church , which he hath lost . and this was the case of infants , they had no standing in the universal distinct from that which they had in the jewish church ; and therefore if that particular church-state or frame be dissolved in which alone infants are reckoned as members , ( as it is , ) and another erected in which they are not reckoned , infants are not any longer to be reckoned as visible church-members . and ●his i shall make good when i come to mr. bs. fuller improvement of this . . sa●th mr. b. you must distinguish between the essentials , and some accidentals of the jewish church : the priesthood , temple , sacrifice , &c. were meerly accidental , and might be repealed without the re●eal of the essentials , or the ordinance establishing the church it self . answ. i grant the distinction , but find it of no use , till it be shewed what are the essentials ▪ and what not ; what the ordinance is that established that church , that it is of the essentials of that church , that infants be visible members is of the essentials of that church : which to assert were all one as to say , the jewish church had been no church visible without infants , which i take to be absurd . . saith mr. b. you must distinguish between their church conside●ed in it self , and considered comparatively as to othe●s . the jews were a peculiar people and church of god , no other had the like priviledges . now if they had b●lieved , they should have kept all their priviledges absolutely considered : ( except it be a losing them to change them for greater . ) but comparatively co●sidered , they should not have kept some relative priviledges : for they should no longer have been a singular peculiar people , seeing others should have enjoyed as great priviledges as they ; yet this would have been without any loss of theirs , much more without wholly unchurching them or their children . when a man hath but one son , he hath the priviledge of being his fathers onely son : but when his father hath many more , he hath lost that priviledge ; and yet is not therefore turned out of the family ; nay , the adding of more brethren in our case , is an increase of the happiness of each p●rticular : for this is the very case of the jews . the adding of the gentiles would have made the jews no more to be so peculiar as to be singular in their priviledges ; and yet they should have enjoyed never t●e less . therefore mark i● , the scripture speaking of taking in the gentiles , it exp●esseth it as by taking down the partition wall , and making of both one church ; but it speaks not of unchurching the jews first , and their children , or bereaving them of their priviledges . and when in his vision peter was taught the doctrine of the gentiles reception into the church , acts . it was not by making the jews unclean , but by clensing the gentiles to be clean as the jews . so that if the jews would have believed , they should have lost only their comparative priviledges consisting in the singularity of their enjoyments , which is no loss to them , to have the gentiles enjoy them as well as they ; but their priviledges in themselves considered , would not have been diminished , but some lesser turned into greater : and therefore certainly god would never have turned their children all out of the visible church . answ. the distinction is of the ●ewish church considered in it self , and comparatively as to others ; but the application is ( as if mr. b. had forgotten his distinction ) of their privile●ges considered absolutely , and compara●ive , and t●en he saith if the jews had believed , they had lost onely their comparative priviledges , not in themselves considered . concerning which conceits , it had been requisit , if he would be understood , that either he should have given a catalogue of each sort of priviledges , or such a description of them as whereby we mi●ht understand which are of the one sort , which of the other . my opinion is , that had the jews believed , that is every individu●l jew of age , or the greatest part ●ad received the gospel , they should have enjoyed with the gentiles all the priviledges of the covenant of saving graces ; the jewish people should have enjoyed their possessions in their own land , which me thinks christs words import , luke . ● , , . but deny that they should have this as a priviledge to them , that their children should be accounted visible members of the christian churches . for gods purpose was to erect a church universal uniformly by preaching the gospel , and not by birth ; and it appeared plainly by the practise of john baptist , christ and his apostles , who never took in any believing paren●s infant to baptism and the christian church , no● admitted any jew without his own personal profession of faith in christ. nor is the contrary proved by ephes. . . but that very thing i assert . for the taking down the partition wall was by taking away the jewish rites , and church-state , that none could be joyn●d to them without conformi●y to the law , now one church is made of both by faith through the gospel , ephes. . . and in like ma●ner when peter took in cornelius , acts . he declared gods mind in his vision . v. . that in every nation he that feareth god and worketh righteousness is accepted with him ; but he doth not say that every one of their infant children are taken into the church , nor did he any act whereby to shew that to be gods mind . nor are mr. bs. observations of any force , for they suppose that if the church state of the jews were altered , paul would have spoken of their unchurching , ephes. . . and acts● . of their making unclean which implies as if there were no other way then these to alter their church-state , and to leave the infants out of the visible church christian ; whereas i have often shewed the contrary , th●t it was done by taking in onely to bap●ism b●lievers , releasing from the burden of circumcision and the law , which might have been though all the jews of age had been believers . . saith mr. b. so when we call the jews [ a national church ] and when mr. t. saith god to●k the whole nation to be his church , it may be meant either in regard of the appropriation and restriction to that nation onely , as if god had not called any other whole nation : and so it may be true , that the jews onely were a national church ( though yet it is doubtfull , as what is said of melchizedek before sheweth : ) and also in regard of their national and church unity ( which yet is the excellency and strength of all other churches ; ) or else by a national church may be meant , as if all were church members that were of that nation , and no more were required to the being a church member but to be of that nation : and thus i perceive it is by many understood . but this is notoriously false . answ. it is in this last s●nse i mean it , and i think it manifestly true with these explications . . that they were of that nation by birth property , or proselytism . . that they were church-members while they continued to be of that nation any of these way● . . that they were church-members with some dis●uiparance or inequality of priviledges . let 's view mr. bs. proofs . for it was then as well as now , the covenant of god ( wherein he took them for his peculiar people , and they took him for their onely god , the parents engagiag for themselves and their children ) which made them members of the church for . no aged person , no not servants , much less ordinary proselites were members , except they entred the covenant ; though they are commanded to circumcise all in their house , yet it is supposed , that by their interest and authority , they caused them first to enter the covenant : therefore they were to circumcise the servants bought with money , as being absolutely their own , whom they had most interest in ; but not the hired servants , whom they had no such authority over ( except they became proselytes voluntarily ) answ. a mutual covenant , such as that at mount sinai , i deny not to have made the people of israel the church of god , and consequently the infants then born visible church-members . but i d●ny that it was then by reason of the parents engaging for themselves and their children , sith it appears plainly by exod. . , . & . . that the elders of the people onely engaged for the whole nation . and the same i conceive of the covenant deut. . , , . the covenant gen. . if it were mutual , it doth not appear that any other then abraham himself engaged for his house . nor do i deny such a mutual covenant , if the lord should enter into it , or declare his mind concerning it , would make a nation , and consequently infan●s church members . but according to the constitution of the christian visible church i deny god makes any such covenant or declares his mind that by such covenant he will gather his church . yet were it yeelded that the covenant made them members of the church , the propositions are true nevertheless with my explications , that all were church-members that were of that nation , and no more is required to the being a church-member but to be of that nation . and to what he alledgeth , i acknowledge that ordinary proselytes at first admission were not members without their covenant engaging them and theirs in their power to the observance of the law of moses , and the s●me reason i conceive of hired servants , and that thereby they became of that nation , or as the jewish doctors say were regenerated , and lost their former kindred , and became jews . but it was not enough to make them of that church , though they covenanted or professed to take je●ovah for their onely god , except they took on them to observe moses law. therefore cornelius was no visible member of the jewish church , though he feared god with all his house , but was shunned by them , acts . . & . . as an unclean , uncircumcised person of another nation . nor do i find any proof of that which mr b. suppose●h , that all aged persons , as servants bought were before they were circumcised ●aused by their masters interest and authority to enter the covenant fi●st . but this doth no whit overthrow the positions , that all were c●urch-members that were of that nation , and that no more was re●uired to the being a church-member but to be of that nation . nor is there any more force in what mr. b. adds . . and though they were taken into the church in infancy yet if they afterward forsook or renounced the covenant , they were to be cut off from the church , yea to be put to death . . and in many cases their children were to be put to death with them . and therefore their chu●ch was not so national as that any in the nation should be a member of it who forsook the covenant . which i grant : for t●en they ceased to be of that nation , that is in that policy or commonwealth de jure at least , if not de facto . what he adds , indeed god chose the seed of abraham ●n a special manner ? but not to be church members immediately , but first to enter into his covenant , and take him for their god , and so to be church mem●ers , is not true . for immediately upon their birth , the seed of abraham were church-members visible , though neither they nor their parents , or any other entred into covenant for them : and if this speech of mr. b. were true , neither had jews infants been visible church members , and so not to be circumcised ( contrary to the command ) nor according to mr. bs. and other paedobaptists principles our infants visible church-members , nor to be baptized without such entring in to covenant going before , which will nullifie the infant baptism of many , and overthrow the argument from the covenant , gen. . . produced as sufficient for infant baptism by most paedobaptists without any other entring the covenant . . saith mr. b. you must distinguish betwixt breaking off that particular individual church or some members of it , and the repealing or breaking off the species or essential nature of the church . answ. the breaking off the particular individual church of the jews is a term i meet with rom. . . but the term of repealing or breaking off the species or essential nature of the church is a new term not used that i know of any where , but , if i may use dr. kendals phrase , in the schola illustris of kederminster a repeal of a law is an obvious wo●d ; but this term of repealin● of the species or essential nature of the church is like the speech of a man doting . i have heretofore learned that the essences of things are invariable , eternal , definitions are of eternal verity , conformable to the idea in gods mind , though existences be mutable : and therefore to expect a proof of a repeal or breaking off the species or essential nature of the church , is to expect a proof of an impossibility . . saith mr. b. and so you must distinguish betwe●n the repealing of the law or grant upon which the very species or nature of the church is grounded ; and the execution of the threatning of law upon particular persons or churches offending . the repeal of the law or ordinance doth take away all right to the mercy granted by that law or ordinance even the remote conditional right , and that from all men , one as well as another to whom that law gave that right . but the punative execution of the threatening doth onely take away the absolute right to the mercy and the right in it , and that from none but the particular offenders . this punitive execution of the law ( or the curse of the covenant , as it is called deut. . , . ) is so far from being a repeal of the law , that it certainly proveth it is not repealed : for a repealed law is of no force , and so cannot be executed . and upon these two last distinctions , i add this for application of them : the individual jewish church is ( for the most part ) broke off , and so they that are so broke off are now no church , and consequently have lost th●ir priviledges : but the law or covenant on which the species or essential form of their church ( and many of its accidents ) was grounded , is not changed or repealed . so the church of smyrna , thyatira , laodicea , and the rest of asia ( for the most part ) are now unchurched : but this is but by a punitive execution of the law for their sin , and no change in the law , or in the nature of the church ; and so it is with the jews also in their unchurching . though they are cast off , yet the law and nature of churches is still the same ; and onely the laws about ceremonial worship ▪ and some other accidents of the church are repealed . so that the casting off of them and their children , is no proof that the whole species of infants is cast out of the church visible . answ. the nature , species , essential form of the church is that which is exprest in the definition of it , in which mr. b. himself pag. . saith , certainly all divines are agreed , that it is a society of persons separated from the world , to god , or called out of the world , &c. now a law on which this might be said to be grounded liable to repeal is in my apprehension a dream : laws repealeable determine not of essences , but things to be existent , to wit , particular actions to bee done or omitted . nor do i conceive that the essential form of the church is grounded upon a covenant . for though god separate or call a people to himself by a covenant single or mutual , and so may bee of the existence of a church , yet if god do separate or call by authority , preaching , power , or any other way , without a covenant , they will have the essence of a church . the jewish church i never conceived to be a species , but an individual , and of it i grant that it might be and was dissolved without the change of the nature , species or essential form of the church , unto which the having of infants visible church-members did not belong . for if so , without infants and that as visible church-members it could not have been a church . what the priviledges jewish infants had as visible church-members except preservation , as part of that people , such inheritance , and other benefits in part which their parents had , which they must needs lose with their parents breaking off , i do not well understand : nor do i know any priviledge , which the believing jews infants did lose by being left out of the christian church visible , which they should have had if they had been taken in . for the priviledges of the jewish infants by being visible church-members , were , as i conceive , to cease upon the comming of christ , and the erection of the christian church , not by any punitive execution of a law , but a wise dispensation of god , as he conceived fittest for his own glory , and the enlarging of the kingdome of his son. the species , as mr. b. speaks , that is , the whole order , rank , series or sort of men in infancy was never in the visible church , but onely the infants of the jewish nation . nor were they cast out of the church visible by any judiciary sentence , but by altering the church-state from jewish into ch●istian as god thought best . . saith mr. b. again , you must distinguish betwixt breaking off primarily and morally onely by covenant breaking and merit , ( as an adulterous woman doth break the marriage bond , and so cast out her self ; ) or else breaking off in a following act by punishment ( both morally and physically ) as a man that putteth away his adulterous wife : ) in the former sence all the jews that were unchurched did unchurch themselves and their children ; and god onely unchurched them in the later sence : and therefore the children of believing jews ( who did not adulterously violate the covenant ) were never unchurched ; god casteth out none but those that first cast out themselves . answ. if this last speech were true , absolute reprobation should be an errour . but perhaps he means it of casting out by judiciary sentence , and so i grant it true of persons of age . but in the present business , the leaving out infants out of the visible church was neither by any sinfull voluntary dissertion or transgression of gods law , morally deserving it ; nor by any act of judiciary sentence legally , or punitive act executing or physically ejecting : but by a free act of his soveraignty , altering the church-state from a more carnal to a more spiritual , without any detriment to believers or theit children . mr. b. applies his distinctions thus , let us now review mr. ts. arguments . . he saith , their church constitution is taken down ; and therefore their membership . to which i answer : . by [ constitution ] is meant either the essential nature , or some ceremonial accident : and by [ taking down ] is meant either [ by repealing the law , which takes down the whole●species , ] or [ by meer punitive execution taking down that individual church ▪ ] in the first sence of [ constitution and taking down ] i utterly deny the antecedent , and may stay long enough i perceive before he prove it . . by [ their membership ] either he means the individual infants of unbelievers , unchurched jews ( which i grant , ) or else the whole species of infants ( which i deny . ) . besides , the argument concludeth not for what he should bring it : that which it should conclude , is [ that the mercifull gift and ordinance of god , that some infants should be church-members is repealed : ] this is another thing from what he concludeth . answ. . by [ constitution ] i neither mean the essential nature , nor some ceremonial accident , but the composing of the integral parts which make up a church an entire whole or totum integrale . i do not find by such notes as i have of the dispute at bewdley , january . . that i used the term of [ taking down , ] but rather the term [ altered , ] which even mr. bs. setting down my argument shews to have been the term i used . and this alteration i conceive was made neither by repealing the law which takes down the whole species , nor by meer punitive execution taking down that individual church ; but by a free act of his soveraignty as rector or lord , who may at his pleasure alter the frame of his church as he pleaseth : as when a lord or governour one while takes in●o his house men , and their wives , and children , another while onely single men , he neither perhaps repeals a law which made the whole species members of his house , nor punisheth the individual persons that were in his house , but because it likes him better to have his house onely of strong able men , alters the state of his house in respect of the members ; so it is in this case . . by [ their church-membership ] i mean not either the individual infants of unbelievers , unchurched jews , nor the whole species of infants ; but the individual infants of the jewish church-members , whether believing or unbelieving . . if i conclude ( as i did ) that the church-membership of infants was altered in the visible church christian from what it was in the visible church jewish , i prove the pretended gift and ordinance of god that some infants should be church-members is repealed . let 's view his answer to my proof . he proveth , saith mr. b. that [ their church constitution is altered , because their church call is altered . ] to which i answer , . here is still nothing but the darkness of ambiguity and troubled waters to fish in . as we know not what he means by [ constitution ] as is said before ; so who knows what he meaneth by [ their church call ? ] is it meant first of gods law or covenant enacting ▪ making , and constituting them a church ? . and , if so , then is it meant of the essential parts of that covenant or law giving them the essence of a church [ i will be to thee a god , and thou shalt be to me a people , deut. . , . ] . or is it meant of the lesser additional parts of the law or covenant giving them some accidentals of their church , as the land of canaan , the priesthood , the sacrifice , &c. . or is it meant of gods immediate call from heaven to abraham or any others to bring them into the covenant ? . and if so , whether of abraham onely ? or moses onely ? or both ? or whether aaron and all other be excluded or not ? and what he means by a church call to infants that cannot understand , i know not ; except by a call he meaneth circumcising them ? and . whether he mean that call by which particularly they were at first made a church ? or that also by which in every generation their posterity were so made , or entred members ? . and if so , whether that which was proper to the jews posterity ? or that which was proper to converted proselyted members ? or some call common to both ? and what th●t was ? when i can possibly understand which of all these calls he means that is altered , then it may be worth labour to answer him . answ. the speeches are inept of the essential parts of the covenant and the accidental , the essential parts of that covenant or law , giving them the essence of a church , [ i will be to thee a god , and thou shalt be to me a people , deut. . , . which suppose either god could not make a covenant without that promise , or that a church could not be without that promise , or that covenant might be without the promise of the land of canaan , which was as essential to that covenant as the other , they being both but integral parts , of which each is essential to the integrity of the whole . and for the essence of a church , which consists in the association , or union of the members , it is not given by a coven●nt of god , promising what he will be to them , and they to him for the future , ( for that assures them onely of continuance , doth not give their present essence , ) but by such transeunt fact as whereby he separates them from others , and unites or incorporates them together , which i call , as usually divines do , the church call ; agreeably to the scripture , rom . , , . cor. . , . &c. which church call is either inward by his spirit , and is still the same ; or outward , and was , tho●gh by various acts of his providence , yet most manifestly by the authority of abraham and moses , not by meer perswasion and begetting of faith , as in the christian church , when the preachers of the gospel called the christian church : but the authority and power of rulers , who did as well by coercive power as by perswasive words , draw all in the compass of their jurisdiction into a policy or commonwealth , which was called the congregation or church of israel , in which the infants were included , and by vertue of the settlement by abraham and moses it so continued to the time of the dissolution . this mr. b. might have understood easily to be my meaning , by my instances which he sets down , that the way , means , or manner of outward church call into the christian visible church is altered from what it was in the jewish : for the christian church outward call was onely according to institution and primitive practise by the preaching the gospel to each member of the visible church christian , and by that means perswading persons to receive christ , and not by any coercive power of rulers , whereas the jewish was otherwise . mr. b. proceeds . in the mean time briefly thus i answer . . the additional lesser parts of the covenant giving them the ceremonial accidents of their church is ceased , and so are the ceremonies built thereon . . the essential part of the law or covenant is not ceased ; god yet offers the jews to be their god , and them to be his people . if they heartily consent it may be done , onely the world is taken into this covenant with them , and neither jew nor gentile excluded , that exclude not themselves . . gods immediate call of abraham and moses did quickly cease , when yet the church ceased not . . and for the ministerial call , . that which was by the person of abraham and moses numerically did cease when their act was performed ; yet the effect ceased not : nor did the jews cease being a church when abraham and moses were dead and gone . . if he mean it of that species or sort of ministerial call , then what sort is that ? and indeed for ought i can possibly learn by his speeches , this is that he drives at : [ god then called by magistrates , but now by ministers : and secondly , then he called all the nation in one day , but now he calls he●e one and there one . ] answ. the reader may hence easily perceive , that mr. b. might have understood , or rather did understand me well enough , that i meant it of the sort of ministerial call , which he could learn by my speeches , that drive at it . but whether he heeded not my words at first when he wrote the questions , or whether he thought it best to make shew of not understanding , what he could not well answer , he hath chosen to pretend ambiguity where all was plain . but for what he sai●h , that the essential part of the law or covenant is not ceased , because god yet offers the jews to be their god and them to be his people , he therein shews two mistakes : . that he makes that promise to be the essential part of the covenant , as if god could not make a covenant without it , which is false , the covenant gen. . , . with phinehas , numb . . , . with the rechabites , jer. ● . . being without it . . that the covenant did not cease because god still offers , which implies either the covenant to be all on● with an offer , or that there is a covenant when there is an offer , whereas there may be an offer yet no covenant , and there may be a covenant and yet no offer upon condition of consent , as mr. b. means . but mr. b. proceeds thus let us therefore see what strength lies in these words . . what if all this were true ? is there the least colour for the consequence from hence ? it is as good a consequence to say , that when god judged israel by debora a woman , which before was judged by men , that then israel ceased to be a commonwealth , or the constitution of the commonwealth was altered . o● when the government was changed from judges to kings , that then the essential constitution of the commonwealth was changed , and so all infants lost their standing in the commonwealth ? what if the king inviting the guests to the marriage feast did first send one kind of officer , and then another ; first a man , and then a child , and then a woman , doth it follow that the feast is therefore altered ? if first a man , and then a child , and then a woman be sent to call you to dinner , or to any imployment , or company , doth this change the nature of the company or imployment ? what if a bishop call one man to the ministery , and a presbytery another , and the people a third , is not the ministerial work and office still the same ? what if a magistrate convert one man now , and a minister another , and a woman a third , doth it follow that the church or state that they are converted to is therefore not the same ? what a powerfull argument is here for a man to venture upon to unchurch all the infants in the world ? the efficient cause enters not the essence : or if it did , yet not every less principal inferiour cause , such as the messenger or minister of our call is : if you had proved that god had repealed his law which is the charter of church membership , then you had said something , else you say nothing to the purpose . answ. i neither attempted nor needed to prove the essence , nature , or essential constitution of the jewish church to be altered , and therefore if the different call i assign prove it not , yet what i was to prove , that the church constitution in respect of the integral parts , and consequently of infants being included , is alt●red , might be , and indeed is firmly concluded from thence . for as alsted . suppl . chamier . de naturae eccl. ch . . § . . the matter of the church are men called , mat. . . the form is the call it self , and that is either simple , that is , either extern●l onely , or internal onely ; or conjunct , that is , external and internal together . § . . the inward call is that in which god calls inwardly by his spirit : the outward , in which he calls outwardly by the ministery of the church . and this is the call of the church , which as it is the action of god calling , is in god himself ; but as it is received of the church , is it's form : or as ames med . th. l. . c. . § . , . that first thing which in act constitutes the church , is calling ; whence also it receives it's name and definition . for the church is a company of men called , cor. . . with . . and cameron in his praeiect . of the church , in his definition of the church , makes it to be a society of men called by the ministery of the word , and saith , called and believers are the same in scripture . mr. b. confes . of faith , pag. . the church is , caetus vocatorum vel fidelium . if then infants be not called by the word , which is the onely way of calling into the christian visible church , nor believers , then they are no part of the visible church christian , and consequently the church constitution is altered , and the law of visible church membership of infants ( if there were such a law ) is repealed . and this argument is powerfull enough ( if there were no more ) to venture upon to unchurch ( though i like not the expression ) all the infants of the world , that is , to prove none of them to be members of the visible church christian. that which mr. b. objects , doth not invalidate the consequence . for the consequence is not grounded on this onely , that the magistrate called then , and the minister now ; then all together , now here one and there another : but on this , the magistrate did it then by his authority , though without perswading one after another ; but in the christian church the minister doth it by preaching the word , teaching and perswading one after another , as the word takes , and not by any commanding power , or outward force , or legislative , or coercive vertue . and this is sufficient to alter the constitution of the church in this respect ; because if none be called but those that receive the word , and none be members of the church but the called , and infants be uncapable thereof , they are not members of the visible church christian. and therefore mr. bs. frivolous questions all run upon the mistake which out of negligence he runs into , as his own words shew , as if i had argued onely from the different persons , and their different office , and not also from the different way , manner , or sort of call , whereas he acknowledgeth that my speeches do drive at this , that my meaning was of the species or sort of ministerial call ; and so i might answer them all negatively , and gra●t what he would have me , and yet my proof stands good . and for what he saith , that the ●fficient cause enters not the essence , i find to the contrary in keckerm . syst . log . l. . par . . c. . that in the definition of accidents , the notion of distinction , or the difference is taken from the subject , efficient , end , and object . yet this , if true , were nothing against me , who do not make the messenger or minister of our call of the essence of the church , no nor of the existence , though the apostles wo●ds ▪ rom. . . speak near to it : but this is that which i hold , no person is ordinarily a member of the visible church christian , but who is called by the outward preaching of the word , who ever be the messenger or minister of the call ; and sith infants are not so called , they are not members of the visible church christian. mr. b. adds , . i utterly deny that there is any more truth in the antecedent then in the consequent ▪ god hath not altered the nature of the call in any substantial point , but in meer circumstances . answ. what mr. b. means by the nature of the call , and what points he makes in the call substantial , what near circumstances is not easie to tell , but that god hath so altered the jewish ch●rch call , as to exclude infants from the christian visible church is so apparent , that i know not how to conceive of the denial of it . but as a fruit of oppositeness without reason . for all the way that john baptist , christ , the apostles and other teachers took and appointed to be taken for gathering the christian visible church , was by preaching the gospel to all that would hear it , to make them disciples or believers , and so by baptism to joyn them to the church . but that the jewish church call was different is apparent , in that there were no such teachers sent out to unite them , but that by the authority of the magistrates , whether houshold or national they were imbodied . rightly saith mr. hudson vindic . ch . . sect . . pag. . gods method of conveying church-priviledges used in the national church of the jews , being in populo israelitico , must needs differ from the method in populo catholico . and the same is true of gods call . but what need we any other to shew the proper call of the christian church visible then mr. b. himself , in his saints everlasting rest , part . . ch . . sect . . edit . . pag. , . he is so ample , and his words so plain , that i think if there were no more to shew his perverse stiffness in this thing it were enough . i will transcribe some passages . consider in what way christ spreads his gospel : to bring men in from the world into his church from paganism , turcism or judaism to christianity , he never gave the sword any such commission ; he never levied an army to advance his dominion ; nor sent forth his followers as so many commanders to subdue the nations to him by force , and spare none that will not become christians : he will have none but those that voluntarily list themselves under him : he sent out ministers , and not magistrates or commanders to bring in the world . can he say this of the jewish church , and their call ? but let 's view his wincings against the plain truth , and in some sort against his own light , though perhaps forgotten when he wrote this later book . it is , saith mr. b. said , it was then by magistrates and now by ministers . i answer ; . what was by magistrates ? the first call ? or all after ? for the first i know not which or when it was , let him that can tell , see that be prove it . i finde when circumcision was first instituted in abraham's family ; but nev●r when their church-membership begun ; shall i dare to think that either abraham or his family were no church-members till they were circumcised ? rom. . would confute me . answ. mr. b. saith he answers , but indeed puts questions to me to answer , and those impertinent . for though i could not tell him which was the first call , nor when the church-membership of abrahams family begah , yet it might be true and proved , that the call of the jewish church was by the magistrate . but yet for clearing of the truth , i shall make some answer . . that i find god calling abraham out of ur of the chaldees , gen. . . acts . . isa. . . and sundry times i find abraham sacrificing to god , and god covenanting with him : nor would i deny abraham , sarah , and those of his family who worshipped the true god , to have been visible church members before circumcision . . but yet i finde not the whole family of abraham men women and children made a visible church , by any act or ri●e which might be termed a chur●h-call , whereby they were separated from all o●her people and united in a little nation unto god till the appointment of circumcision by god , and the performing of it by abrahams authority . now if mr. b. could not tell which and when the jewish church call was , or the jews childrens church-membership began , i think he is very unreasonable to require of me to shew a repeal of a thing which hee findes not when it began . but there is more of this wilde posing sc●ibling to be answered . . saith he , suppose it were true that abrahams family began then to be a church ; ( which will never be proved ) yet did not god call them to circumcision immediately ? what is this to a ministerial call ? answ. . it will never be proved that any whole family , infants , servants , &c. were joyned in a little national church as the jewish before that time , there being no such covenant , and token of it till then . . god did immediately make his covenant with abraham then and appoint circumcision , but the call of the church was medlate , the revealing of the covenant , and the administring the token of it , whereby they were separated to be a people to god , being done by abraham himself as the minister of this call . yet we have more questions to answer . . are you sure that which abraham did in it was as a magistrate ? and not as a prophet ? nor priest ? nor master of family ? prove that if you can . answ. it is easie to prove that what abraham did was done not as a prophet , nor priest : for then it should have been the work of prophets and of priests to have circumcised : but as the master of the family , or parent , and consequently as the magistrate of that house . for i count a parent or master of a family to be a magistrate in a little compass . yet more . . what was it that abraham did ? he circumcised them when god had commanded ; and was circumcising the call ? then the infants in the wilderness , nor the whole camp almost had no church call ; and then the women had never any church call . answ. circumcising was part of the call ; the declaration of god concerning abrahams posterity , and his other providences separating the israelites in the wilderness and with them the women , as bringing them out of aegypt , bringing them into covenant , giving them laws by moses , &c. which reached to women and males uncircumcised , were also a part of the church call . yet again , what was it then that abraham did more then now may be done ? if you say , he compelled them to be circumcised by violence without their consent , i deny it as a forgery ; and if he had done so by those at age , it had been no making them church-members ; for their consent is absolutely necessary therto . if you say , abraham by his interest and authority perswasion did win all at age in his family to consent ; dare you say , that every master of a family and magistrate ought not to do so now ? so that i cannot finde any more that abraham did in this call then may now be done . answ. i do not think abraham did compel them by violence to be circumcised , i think it could hardly have been so done ; nor do i think abraham did it as preachers do now , by reasons and proofs of thei● duty perswading them to it , and leaving it free to them to consent or not ; ( perhaps the time was too little to do it in , and not unlikely , ishmael would have then refused , being a scoffer , and then thirteen years old : ) but he did it by his command , authority , and interest ; which if magistrates and masters of families do use with perswasion to win persons to consent to the gospel , they do what is commendable , and in some cases their duty : and if they win any , so they make them visible church-members by their preaching to them , not meerly by authority as abraham , who i think was bound to have circumcised by force if any had not yeilded to it , or else to have cut him off by that law which is gen. . . and i hardly think mr. b. will yield a magistrate or master of a family to do what abrah●m did , to administer as they call it , the initial seal , whether it be circumcision or baptism . yet were his conclusion yielded him , neither it nor any thing he hath s●id doth at all overthrow my position , which was , that the christian church call is by preaching , the jewish , by the mag●strates authority , and so different . mr. b. goes on thus . and then for moses what more did he ? did he make them members without their consent ? no , he sets before them life , and dea●h , blessing and cursing ; and bids them chuse which they would . deut. , , & , chapters . doth he circumcise them ? no , not his own son. nor the infants forty years , nor the women at all . doth he command them to obey the commands of god ? and should not every king and magistrate do the like ? d●th he perswade them ? why , you know he was a prophet ; and if he had not , yet sure he must do it as a king , and as a servant of god. where then lies this peculiar call by the magistrate ? i think by that time we have search● this to the quick , we shall finde the magistracy less beholding to mr. t. then was imagined . no wonder that he told the people in his pu●pit that it was doctrine of a dangerous consequence which i delivered [ that magistrates had their power from christ the mediat●u● , and not onely from god as creatour ] i doubt by this arguing of his , that he will not allow the magistrate to call all his people together ▪ and propound the covenant of god to them , and command them to obey god. you finde not moses by prison or fire forcing any man to consent : and if he had , you must have a little further work to prove that it was that which made them a church , or that the magistrates may not still do as much as was done herein then . answ. mr. b. herein doth most shamefully wrest my words and meaning : for whereas to shew the different call of the jewish and christian church , i alledged onely matter of fact , that the one was by the magistrates authority , the other by ministers preaching the gospel , which could not take in infants ; mr. b. wrests my speech as if i had said , magistrates might not do what moses then did , and goes about to insinuate , as if the magistracy were less beholding to me then were meet ; and endeavours to encrease the suspicion of my lessening his power by my doctrine in the pulpit at bewdley . but of my judgement in this thing , i ha●e given account in the same pulpit on occasion of the swearing of the magistrate there on rom. . . in these positions . . that all power is committed to christ to manage as mediator , mat. . . joh. . , . cor. . . and consequently , what they do for or against the church , it is from christ enabling or permitting even as mediator . . that magistrates as well as others are subject to , and are to yeeld obedience to christs commands as he is mediator , mat. . . act. . . . that they have power & authority in many things which concern the church of god , and are bound to use their power for christ , and his church , so far as their power extends , tim. . , . and in this sence it is that christ exerciseth some of his government by magistracy under him , as also by parents and husbands , ephes. . . but i conceive it a business of much difficulty , to set the right bounds of their power many things few or none but papists restrain them in , as the calling of assemblies , judging of ecclesiastical persons for civil crimes , ordering the maintenance , and estates of such persons , with many more such things as are to be done circa ecclesiam , not in ecclesia : on the other side , few or none but erastians allow them power in the church , so as to act as civil magistrates in that which is by special commission appointed to proper officers , viz. the preaching of the gospel , administring the peculiar rites of the christian church , ordination of elders , government by ecclesiastick censures , and such like things . the chiefest difficulty hath been , how far they are to use their power for making men profess christianity , accept of teachers , punishing of hereticks and excommunicate persons , and such like acts , in which f●r the most part magistrates by instigation of popish priests , prelates , and others , have much miscarried , and been unhappy instruments of much oppression . yet for my part i do not deny altogether their power about such things as these , especially if they go no further then what mr. b. here speaks of , the commanding them to obey gods commands , propounding the covenant of god to them , restraining pernicious ▪ teachers , and go upon very sure grounds , that they urge nothing but what is certainly gods command , or agreeable to it , nor punish or restrain men for that which is questionable whether it be an errour , or pernicious . but this i hold , should a magistrate as moses did , by his authority , upon fears or hopes , or other compliance , draw all the people of the land into a covenant , to engage themselves and posterity to be christians , yet this would not make the whole nation to be a christian church , the infants visible church-members , capable of baptism , sith christ hath not appointed this way , but another , to wit , by preaching the gospel to call his church , and the preachers of it to baptize believers so called . . i say , that a civil magistrate is not an officer of christ as mediator , sith he hath no new commission from him as the apostles , john . . and others , ephes . . and i conceive to hold the affirmative is of dangerous consequence : it will follow , . that a civil magistrate is bound to produce a further commission from christ as mediator , besides the appointmen of god as creatour , which i neither think mr. b. hath shewed , nor can shew . . that he who shews commission from christ as mediator to rule , hath the authority of a civil magistrate , which puts both swords into elders hands . . that if a civil magistrate be an officer of christ as mediator , he is in the church , in which alone christ as mediator sets officers ; and then he must be a christian or no magistrate , yea , a church member , and then he hath rule in the church , and power to do ecclesiastical acts . . then dominion is founded in grace , which it seems mr. b. holds . praefestin . mor. sect . . as most certain that it is founded in the grace of redemption and universal ; and brings for it plain scrip. proof , &c. pag. . rom. . . which v. . shews plainly to be meant onely of those that live and die to him , and are his own peculiar people ; and the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes not such a lordship as is over enemies , as devils , and children of perdition by power and force ; but such a lordship as is with property over them as his possession , to whom he hath right as his own , cor. . ● . such as a wife , an obedient child , or servant . the other texts prove ●ut my first position . the reader i presume will pardon this excursion , being necessitated by mr. bs. frequent and continued mal●gnant suggestions , tending to make me accounted an adversary to magistracy . i now return to the point in hand . and in answer to mr. bs. demand , i say , the peculiar call of the church of the jews by moses the magistrate was , in his bringing them out of aegypt , into the covenant at mount sinai , setling them under laws , priesthod , government , whereby they were fashioned or established as a national church . but in the christian church , the apostles and other holy teachers did gather , and fashion , and establish the church christan by preaching of the word , without such a way of authority and power as moses exercised . it is true he did as we read , deut. . . but not so as the apostles , who when the gospel was refused exercised no power over the refusers ; for moses would suffer none to live in the commonwealth of israel who did not own the god of israel , and if they worshipped an idol he put them to death . mr. b. adds . . this argument , if good , would help the seekers to prove that we have no church on earth , because not called by apostles , and so the church . constitution taken down , and none by god substituted . let them that have better eys then i find out this peculiar church-making call ▪ for i cannot . answ. my argument , the church call is altered from the way of making the jewish church by abra●ams and moses authority , into the perswasive way of begetting faith by ministers preaching the gospel , therefore the church constitution is altered , doth not help seekers , except it be acknowledged , there is no church now by ministers preaching the gospel , but by meer authority of magistrates , which was heretofore the objection of papists against the english churches , b●t refelled by protestants , jewel , &c. for i do not appropriate the church call to the apostles , or men who could speak that which was meerly , wholly , undoubtedly , insite , implantedly the word of god , as borelius spake ; but to the preaching of the gospel by any minister of christ , or other instrument , whereby faith is begotten , and whereby a●one the christian visible church and all its members were called , in a different way from the jewish church call ; which if mr. b. do not see to have been the christian peculiar church making call , after his wr●ting in his saints everl . rest , par . . ch . . sect . . it seems he will not see i● , and then wee may apply to him the proverb , who so blinde as hee that will not see ? mr. b. passeth on thus . well , but may it not yet lie in the second point [ that they were all taken in to be a church in one day ? ] answ. . what day was that ? i would mr. t. could tell me he saith moses did it : but that 's no truer then the rest . for sure they were a church before moses time . did they begin to be a church in the wilderness ? or did moses onely express the covenant to them more fully , and cause them oft to renew the covenant , and so onely confirm them a church ? was not the circumcised seed of abraham a church in aegypt ? and was the uncircumcised host onely in the wilderness the church ? this is excellent arguing . answ. this is excellent answering , not to deny what is objected , but to propound cross interrogatories . suppose i could not assign the day , is not the thing true ? but that mr. b. may not lose his longing , i tell him it was when abraham circumcised his house , gen. . . when moses made a covenant with them in horeb , deut. . . if i say moses did it , i say but what the scripture doth , deut. . , . nor doth it want of tru●h if it be no truer then the rest . it is not true israel had their church call from moses , for sure they were a church before moses time ; this is mr. bs. excellent arguing . as if the seed of abraham , a fluent being , consisting of a succession of people , might not have one church call in one age , another in another ; one by abraham , another by isaac , another by jacob , another by moses . doth not mr. b. himself , pag. . tell us , that moses did cause them oft to enter and renew the covenant ? i do not say they began to be a church in the wilderness , or that the seed of abraham was not a church in aegypt , or onely in the wilderness : but this i say , the church call of that people was oft in several ages by the authority of the several patriarchs and rulers , as god saw it needfull to bring them into covenant , for better fashioning , establishing , or recovering the church fallen , but for the most part by the authority of rulers ; or if by a prophet , in an extraordinary manner , as elijahs days , kin. . and that not by the way used in the christian church , by a daily adding to the church , and multiplying it by preaching , as acts . . & . . but by authority calling the whole nation and people together into covenant at once . again saith mr. b. but abraham took all his family to be a church in one day , you will say . i answer . first , it is not proved when they began to be a church . repl. nor needs it . ly . and would not mr. t. now have a whole family made a church in a day ? is that his charity ? repl. yes , and the whole world , if it seemed good to god : but we find not that he doth so , or gives us any rule or president for us to do so , in the constitution of the visible church christian , any otherwise then by preaching the gospel to them , and baptizing disciples or believers , mat. . . mark . , . and sure my charity must not be my rule about the use of gods ordinances , but my lord and masters appointment . ly . saith mr. b. and what of it had been true if the whole kingdome ? either it was with their c●nsent , or without : without their consent they could not be made church-members ; for they could not enter into covenant with g●d . answ. if this be true , then no infants are church-members . and though it were true , that none could enter into covenant with god who is of age without his consent , ( which seems to me otherwise , ) yet the consent obtained meerly by the authority of masters or governours , through fear or hopes without teaching , and free acceptance of christ upon the preaching of the gosp●l , doth not make a visible member of the christian church , however it did in the jewish . i do not think the americans forced to be baptized by spaniards , or other people by the conquests of charls the great , and other christian princes , afore they knew christ by teaching made christians , were such , though there was some consent out of fear of loss of life or liberty if they were not . mr. b. adds . and never was any such thing attempted . even joshua treads in moses steps , and bids them chuse whether they will serve the lord or not . jos. . answ. whether abraham had the free consent of all his house to enter into covenant with the lord , or whether he did circumcise some and take them to his family church without their consent , is uncertain : however , if abraham had a slave refractory , which he was loath to lose , yet he must circumcise him against his will , because of the command with the penalty , gen. . , , . and in the circumcising the sichemites what was done and attempted is known . neither moses , nor joshua did so leave it to the jews liberty , but that they would have cut off from the people by death any that refused to acknowledge god ; or that set up an idol . asa's covenant was of putting to death whosever would not seek the lord god of israel , chron. . . whereas there is no such law in the christian church , that whoever shall not believe in christ shall be put to death . yet further saith mr. b. and it being with their consent that the nation were church members , may not the like be done now ? what , may not any or all the nations of the world be added to the church , if they will consent , and enter the covenant ? answ. yes , they may , so many as upon knowledge of christ do freely consent to receive him in all nations : but infants , natural fools , mad-men in their fits , are neither fit to consent , nor to be members in the christian visible church , no nor such ignorant people as do not competently know the christian faith . mr. b. adds . what then is this making them a church in one day that mr. t. so cloudily talks of ? if he say , it is that then the infants were taken in : i answer , that is to prove the same by the same , or else to argue circularly : as to say , their church call did take in infants , therefore the taking in of infants was peculiar to their church call ; this begs the question : or to say , their church constitution is ceased , because their church call is ceased ; or , their church call consisting in the taking in of infants is ceased , therefore their church constitution is ceased ; and that church constitution is ceased , therefore the taking in of infants is ceased . this arguing is like their cause . answ. i have sundry times told mr. b. that the call in one day of the whole nation was by abrahams authori●y , gen. . and by moses , exod. &c. otherwise then in the christian visible church , which was by a daily addition of believers out of several families , cities , and nations , by preaching to them the gospel . and how my arguing is framed without begging the question , or any circle , is before shewed . and the [ call in one day ] i mean● of abrahams and moses act , whether the hearts of the whole nation were bowed to consent to take the lord for their god , or no. i neither envy nor deny the enlarging of the church by christ , nor do i think the converting or taking in more or less makes an alteration in the nature of the church call or constitution ; but a call by preaching the gospel makes an alteration in the christian visible church call and constitution from the jewish , sufficient to exclude infants from christian visible church-membership . but mr. b. clamours thus against me . and what means mr. t. to talk of here one and there one ? to speak so contemptuously in such disparaging language of the kingdome and gospel of christ ? is not the wonderfull success of the gospel one of our strong arguments for the truth of the gospel and our christian religion ? and it seems mr. t. will give this away to the pagans , rather then admit infants to be members of the church . answ. i mean to speak as , the holy ghost speaks , cor. . , , . james . , . rev. . . and as by the histories ecclesiastical may be made apparent , which rashly mr. b calls speaking contemptuously in disparaging language of the kingdome and gospel of christ , as he formerly did my denial of infant baptism accusing of my own children . nor by my saying is the argument for the truth of the gospel and christian religion a whit infringed . for the force of the argument is not from hence , that whole nations , cities , houses were converted by the gospel ; but that though the persons were contemptible who preached , their doctrine likely to affright men , without arms ▪ against opposition of great ones , there was so great success over the world as to conv●●t so great numbers , though few in comparison of the rest , even in most barbarous countreys , from their long accustomed idolatry to embrace a crucified lord. yet saith mr. b. was it but here one and there one when three thousand were converted at once , and five thousand afterwards ? and many myriads or ten thousands even of the jews that continued zealous of the law did believe ? acts . . & . . & . . besides all gentiles ? was it but here one and there one , when all that dwelt at lydda and saron turned to the lord , both men and women , acts . and all that dwelt at samaria , acts . answ. it was but here one and there one as i meant it . . it was not any whole nation or city , and perhaps few whole housholds , sure i am not one infant in any of the places . for in acts . . they who were baptized gladly received the word ; and acts . . they heard the word and believed ; and acts . . they believed and were zealous of the law ; acts . . they saw it , and turned to the lord ; acts . . they believed philip. . these three thousand , five thousand , ten thousands inhabitants might , and li●ely were but one out of one house , and another out of another house : as god had much people in corinth , acts . . yet but few housholds , the husband a believer , the wife an unbeliever ; the servant a believer , not the master , cor. . , , , . so many miriads might be , yet but here one and there one , considering that jerusalem , especially at the feasts , was full of people ; an● that the myriads are not restrained to jerusalem , but ●ight be in judaea , or perhaps in remoter parts . it is evident that the number of christians was not able to match the persecuters , and that even in jerusalem : yea , it is said , acts . . that all the city was moved against paul , and the people ran together , all jerusalem was in an uproar , v. . much ado the souldiers had to rescue him from the multitude , v. . even at that time when the myriads are said to have been of believing jews , v. . the texts acts . & . . say not as mr. b. that all that dwelt at samaria believed , nor all that dwelt at lydda and saron both men and women , but those that turned to the lord , as is shewed sect. . before . yet more . let him shew me when three thousand jews were made church-members in a day , if he can , before christs time : i say , if he can , let him shew it me . sure ever since abrahams time ( and i doubt not but before too ) they were added to the church by one and one as they were born . answ. if i cannot shew it mr. b. gains nothing , my assertion , that the jewish nation were a church together in one day by magistrates authority , the christian church was gathered by apostles a●d others preaching whereby one was made here one day , another there a believer another day , not a na●ion , city , nor always a house together , stands good . but sith m. b. wil allow me so much favour as to shew him any thing , me thinks he should not deny that more then three thousand were made church-members in one day , deut. . , , , , , . and if in the time of solomons reign , when judah and israel were many as the sand which is by the sea in multitude kin. . . three thousand were born in one day , by mr. bs. own grant there were three thousand added to the church in one day . yet again saith mr. b. and i have shewed you before , that christ sendeth his messengers to disciple all nations : it is a base exposition that shall say he means onely , go and disciple me here one and there one out of all nations , and no more . answ. and what childish vanity , if not worse , he hath shewed in his ridiculous including infants to be discipled in that commission , is shewed before in the second part of this review , sect. . &c. if it be a base exposition which he sets down , it is base dealing if he set it down as mine exposition : who yeeld that their commission was to disciple all of a nation who could be discipled , though it is true that they could not do it to a whole nation in a day as moses did ; and in the event they discipled but here one and there one in a house for the most part . yet more saith mr. b. and what means that in revel . . . are not these kingdomes added to the church as well as israel ? i answer , that it means not as mr. b. imagines , that the whole people of kingdomes shall become christs visible church , but the rule or dominion of them shall be his , as the close of the v. and ch . . shew , which makes nothing for mr. b. as will appear by ex●minining his frivolous arguing , ch . . yet again saith mr. b. like a brave goliath , and are not all professors of christianity in england , as truly in the church as all in israel were ? i challen●e any to answer me herein , and undertake to make it good against them ( as far as will stand with modesty to challenge ) whatsoever any separatist ( commonly called independents ) or anabaptists may say to the contrary ; ( for i have pretty well tried the strength of their arguing in this . ) and i have pretty well tried mr. bs. strength in disputes , and find it small though his words be big . i do not answer to the name of a separatist or anabaptist , they are mr. bs. abusive language of me . let independent paedobaptists answer it as they please . i th●nk if they will baptize infan●s from the rule of circumcision and the jewish-church-state , they must assert a national church , admit all that avo●ch themselves christians to breaking of bread , and their infant males to baptism . and i conceive presbyterians by the grounds they maintain paedobaptism are debarred from keeping the ignorant and scandalous from the lords supper ; and though i challenge not as mr. b. yet presume i shall make both good in their season . as for the present question of mr. b. i grant it , and then i hope we shall not fight about it . yet i t●ll mr. b. i do not take all for professors of christ●anity whom perhaps mr. b. doth , nor do i think mr. b. can find me one professor of christianity among all the infants in england . yet a little further , s●ith mr. b. either mr. t. by [ church call ] means that which was the means of entring infants , or men at a●e or somewhat common to both . the jews did all enter into the church as members in infancy , even they that deferred circumcision till forty years old , and the women that were not circumcised . and what call had these infants that cannot understand a call ? answ. the church call of the jewish nation or family of ●braham , was by his authority , in a way common to men of age and infants : abraham and his house were by circumcision and declaring gods covenant formed into a visible church , and accordingly all that were born of abraham , and all that were taken into his house while they continued in that family or nation , were of that church . and this way of church call , by bringing into the bond of the covenant the whole nation , infants , servants , men and women together , was by the authority of moses renewed at mount horeb , and in the land of moab , deut. . . though circumcision were deferred for a time . and this call was of the infants , though not by themselves apart , yet conjunctly with the whole nation , the chief representing the rest , exod. . . deut. . . and among them the infants , who might as well understand a call as a covenant , into which mr. b. contends they did enter . mr. b. adds . the proselytes , who were made church-members at age , were first converted to god , and professed the true religion , and so brought in their children with them : they were converted not all in a day , but by times ; not onely by moses , or succeeding magistrates , but chiefly by priests or levites , or zealous people , or by what way or means god was pleas●d to use for that end . i did int●eat mr. t. to shew me any material difference between the call of these prosely●es into the church in all ages till christ , and the call of us gentiles into the church : and truly he gave me an answer of meer words for a put off , ( wherein he hath a notable faculty , ) which i can find no weight nor sence in , nor am i able to tell what he would say to it ; nor can i conceive what possibly can be said of any moment . and as camero well noteth , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is now used in the church as it were in the place of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : discipling new to us , is as proselyting was to them . so that you see now what this church call is which he layeth so great a weight on , and how much in the main it differeth from ours . answ. when that time was that mr. b. made this request to me , and what imperfect answer it was which i gave him , i do not well remember : i guess it was when i had conference with him alone , jan. . . in his chamber , when he drew me to a conference with him , pretendi●g friendliness ; but ( as the event shewed , having jan. . before , when i suspe●●ed no such dealing , written his abusive epistle before his saints everlasting rest , in which he falsly accused me and proclaimed his driving me to absurdities in the dispute , jan. . ) drew from me what he could ●or his advantage , and then printed it in this book , without my revising my answers , or his acquainting me with his printing them , or rightly according as they were printing them , as may be perceived by this review ; and mocking me with this fraudulent trick , when i expected according to his promise to see his arguments written from some of his own or my auditors to whom he would communicate them . but leaving him to the lord , i shall now give a plain answer to his demand . proselytes were of two sorts , . of the gate , as cornelius , ow●ing the god of israel , but not joyning to the church and policy of israel . these were not of the jewish church visible , though they were of the church invisible of true believers , and of the church visible universal of professors of the true god : for they were accounted unclean , and shunned by the jews , acts . . & . , . their calling i conceive was as ours is , by the word of god made known to them ; nor do i find that infants were any part of the church of them , whether domestick as in cornelius house , acts . . or congregational , of which i find not an instance , nor of any rites or discipline they had . . of righteousness , who were made such partly by perswasion as mat. . . and so far their call agrees with our call , and the other sort of proselytes , partly by entring them into the jewish church , by baptism , circumcision , and an offering , and with them wives and children ; and this was done by authority of elders imposing on them the precepts of moses law , and acting according to rules of their own . in which how much their church call differs from ours is shewed in the d . part of this review , sect . . in answer to dr. hammond . now though they were joyned to the jewish church one after-another , and the infants of the jews as they were born ; yet the jewish-church , whether at the first erection , or after estab●ishing , were constituted of the whole family and nation together by the authority of abraham and moses differently from the call of the christian church visible in so material a point as excludes infants from church-membership , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which thing i was to demonstrate . mr. b. goes on thus . but yet one other argument mr. t. ha●h to prove the church constitution altered , and consequently infants now cast out , or their church membership repealed : and that is this ; they were to go up three times a year to the temple ; they had their sanedrim , and high priest : now he appealeth to all , whether these be not altered : and therefore the church constitution must needs be altered ; and so infants put out . answ. my argument is this , if that which had the same reason with infants church-membership be altered , then infants church membership is altered : but that which had the same reason with infants visible church-membership is altered , ergo. the consequence is made good by the rule of logick , where there is the same reason of things , there is to be the same judgement . de paribus idem est judicium . the minor is proved thus . the high priest , sanhedrim , repair to their feasts , had the same reason with infants visible church membership : but they are altered , ergo. the major is proved thus . infants church membership was no where but in the jewish church , we read of it no where else , nor upon any other reason but their being part of the nation , which god had made his church ; they were visible church members upon no profession of their own , nor from any general determination of god , law or ordinance that the children should be reckoned of his church with the parents in any countrey whatsoever , there being no such law ; but meerly from hence , because he would have the nation of israel to be his fixed people out of whom the messiah should come , and so a national church till then . and for the same reason he would have one high priest , temple , repair thither at solemn feasts , a sanhedrim , their genealogies kept , their possessions by lot , &c. but all these are altered now , the church is not national , no one high priest , temple , sanhedrim , &c. therefore neither infants visible church-membership , which had the same reason and no other . what saith mr. b. alas , miserable cause that hath no better arguments ! are any of these essential to their church constitution ? how came there to be so strict a conjunction between priesthood , temple , sanhedrim , &c. as that the church must needs fall when they fall ? may it not be a church without these ? answ. alas miserable cause that hath no better answers ! is infants church-membership essential to church constitution ? how came there to be so strict a conjunction between the church and their membership , as that the church must needs fall when they fall ? may●it not be a church without these ? if the temple , &c. might be altered , and and were , because no● essential to the church ; infants church-membership did cease too , which was no more essential then those , and which hath been proved to have the same reason with these , to wit , gods making his church national out of which the messiah was to come . hitherto nothing is indeed answered , and what is said is retorted . the rest is according to mr. bs. vein of frivolous putting impertinent questions to me . i would intreat mr. t. or any christian who hath the least good will to truth lest in him , considerately to answer me to these . . was not the jewish people a church before they had either a temple , or sanhedrim , or high priest , or any of the ceremonies of the law of moses ? ans. i think not : there was no time they were a church , but they had a priest , an altar , sacrifices , distinction of clean and unclean beasts , &c. were they not a church in aegypt , and in the families of abraham , isaac , and jacob ? ans. they were . . did the adding of these laws and ceremonies take down any former part of the church ? ans. no. or did every new ceremony that was added make a new church , or constitution of the church ? ans. no. . if the adding of all these ceremonies did not make a new church , or overthrow the old , why should the taking of them away overthrow it ? ans. who saith it doth ? . if the jews church constitution before moses time was such as took in infants , why not after moses time ? ans. who denies it ? or if infants were church-members long before either temple , or sanedrim , or high priest , &c. why may they not be so when these are down ? why must they needs fall with them when they did not rise with them ? ans. because if they did not rise with them at the same time , yet they were erected upon the same foundation , the jewish national church , as the walls fall with the roof , though they rise not together , because they rest on the same foundation . . and if the very specifical nature of their church be taken down , then men are cast out , and women too , as well as children . ans. i say not the specifical nature of their church was taken down , but the particular church constitution jewish altered ; and i grant it , that men and women under the consideration as they were in the jewish church , are left out ( i will not say cast out , for they were never in ) of the christian visible church as well as children . if it be said that christ hath appointed men and women to be church members anew , i answer , what man can imagine that christ first repealed the ordinance that men and women should be members of the church , and then set it up anew ? ans. and what man can imagine otherwise who reads the new testament , but that ( if there were such an ordinance that men and women being jews by birth should be members of the jewish church ) christ repealed it , when neither john baptist , nor christ , nor his apostles admitted any jew because a jew into the christian church by baptism , without his personal faith and repentance ? mr. b. saith . i will wast no more time in confuting such slender arguments , but shall willingly leave it to the judgement of any understanding unbyassed man , whether mr. t. have well proved that god repealed his ordinance , and revoked his mercifull gift , that some infants shall be church members . answ. it is my burthen that i must waste more time in refuting such empty scriblings as these , containing questions , and those not touching the argument , instead of answers ; and i leave it to the students of divinity in the universities , and else-where , who are understanding unbyassed men ( if there be any ) yea to any that have studied logick , to judge whether i have not proved a repeal of his pretended ordinance , after i have added some more proof out of the new testament in the next section , and answered his letters to me , to which i hasten . sect . lii . it is proved , that infants were not reckoned to the visible church christian in the primitive times , nor are now . . i thus argue , if no infants were part of the visible church christian in the primitive times , then what-ever ordinance there were of their visible church membership before , must needs be repealed . but the antecedent is true , ergo the consequent . the consequent of the major i think will not be denied : for supposing there were infants even of christians , and an ord●nance before , that the infants of the godly should be visible church members , and yet no part or members ; then it must needs be from the revocation of that ordinance , if there were such a one . now that the antecedent is true , i prove thus . if in all the days of christ on earth , and the apostles , no infant was a part or member of the visible church christian , then not in the primitive times : for the primitive times of the christian church go no further , though i think i might extend my proof somewhat further . but the antecedent is true , ergo. that no infant was a part or member of the visible church christian in the dayes of christ and his apostles on earth , is proved by these arguments . all visible members of the church christian were to be baptised . this is often asserted by mr. b. plain scrip. proof , &c. pag. . the whole church must be sanctified by the washing of water , pag ▪ . as the whole church is one body , and hath one lord , and one faith , so it hath one common baptism . and he alledgeth cor. . ▪ eph. . , . eph. . . out of which this proposition may be proved . but no infants were to be baptised . this is proved at large in the d . part of this review sect. , &c. therefore no infants were visible members of the christian church . . they were not visible members of the church christian who were not of the visible body of christ. this is proved from mr. bs. words plain script . &c. pag. . the body cor. . . is the visible church . pag. . as the whole church is one body &c. pag . what is the church ? is it not the body of christ ? the same he confirms pag. . . from cor. . . which he proves to be meant of the visible church , and it is affirmed by the apostle col. . . ephes. . , . that the church is the body of christ , and so the visible church is his visible body . but no infant was of the visible body of christ. this is proved . from cor. . . all that were of the body were made to drink into one spirit , namely in the cup of the l●rds supper . diodati annot . in locum hanc rationem confirmat testimonio baptismi & caenae dominicae piscat . analys . cor. . . arg. . sacramento baptismi & caenae dominicae omnes fideles connectuntur . dicson expos . anal. cor. . . ut utri usque sacramenti unus scopus & idem etiam esse intelligatur , beza annot . in cor. . . calicem quoq●e domini in hanc spem bibimus . grot. annot . in locum . but no infant was made to drink into one spirit , for none of them did drink the cup in the lords supper , ergo. . from cor. . . all that were one body and one bread , did partake of that one bread which was broken v. . but no infant did partake of that one bread , if they did they must do so still & ▪ be admitted to the lords supper , ergo. . from ephes. . . the whole church is one body , and hath one lord and one faith . mr. b. plain script . &c. pag. . but no infant hath one faith , ergo. . they were no members of the visible church , who were left out of the number of the whole church , all the believers , the multitude of the disciples in all the places where there is an enumeration of the members of the church , or mention of the whole church , the number of believers or disciples in the new testament . but infants are left out of that number in all places in the new testament , ergo. the major is evident of it self . for as we know who was in the church by their mention , so we know who were not by their being left out in those passages , which make an enumeration or reckoning of all , there being no other way to know who were in or out ; and if this be not true , the speeches are false which mention all , the whole , the multitude , as the full number if they were not so . the minor is also proved from those texts where such enumeration is mentioned . acts . . peter is said to stand up in the mids of the disciples , and that the number of the names together were about an hundred and twenty ▪ and in the verses before are reckoned the apostles with the women , mary the mother of jesus and his brethren , and they are said to continue in one accord in prayer and supplication . here i conceive is an enumeration of the disciples or church that then was at jerusalem visible . dr. lightfoot in his com. on acts . saith , the believers at jerusalem no doubt were many hundreds if not thousands at this time ; though we read of no converts in this book till the next chapter . for what fruit or accompt can else be given of all christs preaching and pains bestowed in that city ? let but joh. . . & . . & . . & mar. . . & joh. . . & . . & . , . & . , . and divers other places be well weighed , and it will be utterly unimaginable that there should be less believers in jerusalem now then many hundreds , much more unimaginable that these one hundred and twenty were all , who were all galileans , and no inhabitants of jerusalem at all . the like is the arguing of the assembly in their answer to the dissenters , pag. . nevertheless it seems not improbable to me , considering the narration all along ●he chapter , that v. , . they are said to come together , go to mount olivet , and then to return to jerusalem , and their action noted with special notice of some , v. , . and then next , v . that peter stood up in the mids of the disciples , that this enumeration of is not an enumeration onely of men of note , but of all the disciples of christ then at jerusalem , me thinks the terming of peter a galilean , mark . . doth intimate few of the hierosolymitans were disciples of christ ; christs preaching most in galilee , his directing them to go into galilee where they should see him , matth. . . mark . . the disciples shut●in● the doors and assembling at evening for fear of the jews , joh. . . do shew that most of ●he disciples were galileans , few of jerusalem ; specially when all the disciples forsook christ and fled , matth. . . the shepheard being smitten and the sheep scattered , v. . h●wever the enumeration being of disciples , and the women being reckoned with them , and not their children , nor the actions of prayer , &c. such as are to bee ascribed ●o infants , it is evident that infants were not then countted among the disciples , and consequen●ly not counted for visible members of the christian church . acts . . they are said to be all with one accord in one place . the assembly ubi suprà alledgeth reasons why they all should be meant of the apostles onely , but not cogent . for . the narration doth not any more limit the words act. . . by acts . then by v. . . not onely the apostles , but o●hers were filled with the holy ghost women as well as men , v. . acts . . & . . . though they were galile●ns that spake v. . yet it proves not the [ all ] v. . to be galileans . . the mention is of the apostles v. , , . not to shew that it was a meeting of the apost●es onely , but because they were the leaders and chief actors in that church . and that the meeting was of the whole church at jerusalem then , is proved from v. . th●s , the meeting was of them to whom the three thousand souls were added ; but they were added to the church v. . not onely to the apostles , or teachers . for then the sense should be , that that should be added to the teachers , and so many more teachers added : whereas they are said to continue in the apostles doctrine v. . by their profession of it , the apostles teaching an● not the● . and hence i gather , that not one infant was reckoned to the church , because the [ all ] v. . are said to bee together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with one accord , or one minde and consent , which is not to be said of infants . from acts . . i further argue , the church did then consist of such persons onely as were of like sort with those who were added to it , which must be granted except it be said , the added and those who were added were of different sorts . but of those who were added there was no one infant . this is proved from the words v. , . that they continued stedfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship , and in breaking of bread and in prayers , and fear came upon every soul , v. . they gladly received the word , which cannot be said of infants ; therefore no infant was reckoned then a● a part or member of the visible church christian. again v. ● . the whole church is meant by all that believed , who are said to be together ▪ to have all things●common , sold and imparted their possessions , continued with one accord in the temple , brake bread from house to house , eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart , praised god , had ●avour with all the people , v. , , . which cannot be said of infants , therefore no infants were then reckoned as parts or members of the christian visible church . again acts . . it is said , many of them which heard the word believed , and the number of the men was about five thousand . that this is an enumeration of the whole church then at jerusalem , is more probable the● that it is an enumeration onely of the newly added ; however the addition being of the same sort of persons with those to whom they were added , and no one infant reckoned to the church , but all men , that heard the word and believed , it is clear that in the number of the christians or disciples infants were not reckoned , and consequently no visible church members then . v. , . peter and john are said to go to their own company , and to report to them the speech of the chief priests and elders , and then upon hearing they lift vp their voice with one accord to god , v. . to pray , to be assembled together , to be filled with the holy ghost , to speak the word god with boldness ; and the church is called v. ● . the multitude of them who believed , to be of one heart and one soul. all which shew , that the church consisted of a company of praying people , of a multitude of believers , which is not to be said of infants , therefore they were no visible church members then . acts . . it is said , and great fear came upon all the church , and upon as many as heard these things . here the whole church is mentioned as contradistinguished fr●m the many that heard these things . but no one infant was a member of the church , sith none was capable of the great fear that came upon all the church from the notice of ananias and saphira's death , therefore they were not then church-members . v. ▪ . they who were magnified by the people , who were joyned to the lord , who were of the same sort with believers , who were the more added to the lord , multitudes both of men and women , were not infants : but such were the church then , therefore it did not consist of infants then . acts . . the church is expressed by the number of disciples , by the multitude of disciples , v. . the whole multitude , v. . the number of the disciples obedient to the faith , v. . but none of these were infants , as their conventing , the speeches to them , and other acts shew ; therefore infants then were not reckoned christian visible church-members . acts . . the church at jerusalem are said to be all scattered abroad except the apostles , v. . to consist of men and women haled to prison , which is not to be conceived of infants , therefore they were not then reckoned as visible church members . acts . . the whole church is said to send chosen men of their own company . but this doth not agree to infants , therefore infants were not reckoned as part of the whole church . cor. . . the whole church is supposed to come togeter into one place . but this is not to be said of infants , they were no part of the company that met , they were not capable of the end and actions of the meeting , therefore they were no part of the whole church , the same may be said of all other like places . . they were no part of the christian church visible , to whom the things ascribed to the whole christian church did not agree . but the things ascribed to the whole christian church visible did not agree to infants . ergo. the major is of it self evident , as in like manner this is a plain truth , that they are no souldiers to whom what is said of the whole army doth not agree . the minor is proved from many places of scripture . matth. . . christ saith he will build his church on this rock , this is meant of the whole church , and the building is meant of building by preaching , ephes. . . & . , . but infants are not built by preaching , therefore they are not parts of the church visible . cor. ▪ the church is of them who are called to be saints which is by preaching the gospel , v. , . but infants are not so called , ergo , they are not of the visible church christian. acts . , . & . . they who were added to the church did all hear the word and believe : but infants did not so , therefore they were not added to the church , and consequently were not visible church-members . they were not parts of the church who did not come together , were not gathered together ; for all the church did come together with one accord in solomons porch , acts . , . were gathered together by the apostle , acts . . but infants were no part of them , they were not with one accord any of those to whom the apostle told what god had done with them , therefore they were not part of the visible church . they were no part of the church of god , who were none of the flock of god to whom the elders were to attend as made overseers over them by the holy ghost to feed them . for all these things are attributed to all the flock or church of god at ephesus , acts . . but infants were none of the flock to whom the elders were to attend as made overseers by the holy ghost to feed them , nurses were to attend and feed infants , not teaching and ruling elders , whose work was in the word and doctrine , tim. . . therfore infants were none of the flock or church of god visible at that time . they were no part of the church of god , who were not in duty to be sanctified by the word . for the whole church was in duty to be sanctified by the word , as mr. b. plain script . &c. pag. . gathers from ephs. . . concerning baptism . but no infant is in duty to be so sanctified , it were a ridiculous thing to t●e preachers to sanctifie or wash infants by preaching the word to them , therefore they were no part of the church . the churches had rest , and were edified ; walked , were multiplied , acts . . acts . . prayer was made of the church unto god for peter . the church at hierusalem , acts , . is said to hear tidings , to send barnabas , who with paul assemble with the church , v. . fit persons to convene , acts . . to receive orders , cor. . . with many more such attributes , which neither are , nor can ordinarily be said of infants , no nor any attribute in all the new testament , which is said of the visible church christian is said of infants , therefore they were not accounted visible members in the first christian churches , nor are rightly now so taken . . they who were not reckoned as christs disciples , were not visible church-members ; for as mr. b. rightly saith , plain script ▪ &c. all church-members are christs disciples . but infants are no where reckoned as christs disciples . this is proved , . from the places in all the acts of the apostles , and elsewhere , where there is mention of christs disciples , there are such things declared of them as do exclude infants from the number of them . i omit acts . . & . , , , . before mentioned . acts . , . it is said that barnabas and saul a whole year assembled themselves with the church , and taught much people , and the disciples were called christians first in antioch : and upon the prediction of a dearth it is said , then the disciples , every man according to his ability , determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in judaea , which they also did , and sent it to the elders by the hands of barnabas and saul . from whence this is apparent , that the church , the disciples , the christians were then synonyma , or terms importing the same p●●sons , so that he who was not a disciple was not of the church , nor a christian. but no infant was then reckoned as a disciple . this is proved from what is said of every disciple , v. . they determined to send and did send , which none will say infants did . ergo , infants were not then reckoned among disciples , christians , or members of the visible church christian. acts . , , . it is said , that the disciples stood round about paul , that he and barnabas taught many , or made many disciples , and that they confirmed the souls of the disciples , exhorting them to continue in the faith . from whence it is manifest , that the disciples then were such as stood round about paul , that they were taught , or made disciples by teaching or preaching the gospel , that they were in the faith , capable of confirmation , and exhortation . but such were not infants , ergo , they were not then reckoned as disciples , and consequen●●y not church-members . acts . . made havock of the church . acts . . against the disciples , v. . the saints at hierusalem , v. . the disciples at damascus , v. . the disciples , v. . joyning to the church is joyning to the disciples , v. . the brethren , v. . the churches , v. . the disciples heard , v. . called the saints . acts. . . it is said they taught the brethren , v. . being brought on their way by the church , they caused great joy unto all the brethren ; v. . they were received of the church . v. . the disciples are they whose hearts were purified by faith ; the whole church v. . are the brethren , v. . who send greeting to the brethren . v. . they were the multitude gathered together , v. . they exhorted the brethren , v. . were let go in peace from the brethren , v. . let us visit our brethren , v. . recommended by the brethren . v. . confirming the churches . acts . . well reported of by the brethren , v. . and so were the churches established in the faith , and increased in number daily , v. . and when they had seen the brethren they comforted them . acts . , . the brethren sent away paul. which passages do shew , that these terms were then of the same extent , and synonymous , the church , the disciples , the brethren , the believers , the saints : but infants were none of the church , the disciples , the brethren , the believers , the saints as all the passages where they are mentioned shew , therefore infants were not then visible church members acts . . paul took leave of the brethren , v. . he saluted the church , v. . strengthened all the disciples , which strengthening was by teaching and exhorting , as acts . ● . shews : which infants were not capable of , therefore they were not disciples ▪ v. . the brethren wrote , exhorting the disciples to receive apollos ▪ who helped them much who believed through grace . acts . , . paul finds certain disciples who were believers , v. . separates the disciples , v. . the disciples would not suffer paul to enter in unto the people . acts . . upon the first day of the week , when the disciples came together to break bread , paul preached unto them at troas . which shews plainly , that the disciples did use to break bread on the first day of the week , and that those who were disciples did break bread ; which cannot be said of infants , therefore they were not disciples , and consequently not visible church-members . . the same is proved by those arguments which are in the second part of this review , sect . . to prove infants not disciples appointed to be baptized , matth. . . and by the answers to the allegat●ons of mr. cotton , mr. b. and others , sect. , , &c. to prove them disciples . . if in the distributions of the members of the church then , infants are not comprehended , then infants were not visible church-members , this must needs be granted , or exception must be taken to those distributions . but in the distributions of the church , where all sorts of members are expressed , infants are not comprehended ; ergo. the minor is proved from the distributions according to the sex , acts . . & . . men and women , among whom was no infant , for in the former place they are termed believers , in the latter they are said to believe philip preaching the things concerning the kingdome of god , and the name of jesus christ ; which is not to be said of infants . cor. . . they are distributed into jews or gentiles or greeks , bond or free , but none an infant , as is proved before , in that all were baptized , and did drink the lords cup. the like is gal. . . there is neither jew nor greek , there is neither bond nor free , there is neither male nor female ; for ye are all one in christ jesus : and that is by faith , v. . and therefore no infant meant . col. . . where there is neither greek nor jew , circumcision nor uncircumcision , barbarian , scythian bond nor free ; but christ is all and in all , that is by faith , which is not to be said of infants . to which i may adde , that in tertullians time the children of believers were not accounted actually members of the visible church , because he terms them in his book de anima ▪ c. . designatos sanctitatis , intended to be holy ; that is , to be bred up to profess the faith , and so to be baptized . which is the more apparent , in that hierome expresseth the same as from tertullians bo●k de monogamia , in his epistle to paulinus , tom . d. edit . basil. that the children of believers are termed holy , because they are as it were candidates of the faith . and erasmus in his scholie on that epistle saith , therefore they which are born of christians , are called holy also before baptism , because they do as it were seek and expect baptism . which shews they were not counted actually church-members , but such as were designed to be believers , and so as it were seekers for faith and baptism , and consequently church-members onely in expectation . . i argue from the common received definitions of the visible church . artic. . of the church of england , the visible church of christ is a congregation of faithfull men . in the answer of the assembly to the reasons of the seven dissenting br●thren , p . of the edition . the first praecognitum is this ; the whole church of christ is but one , made up of the collection and aggregation of all who are called out of the world by the preaching of the word , to profess the saith of christ , unto the unity thereof : from which union there ariseth unto every one such a relation unto , and dependance upon the catholick church , as parts have to the whole . dr. john rainold d. concl . the church of christ betokeneth a company called out from among the multitude of other men , to life everlasting through faith in christ jesus . ball , trial of separ . pag. . ch . . the church is a society of the faithfull . hudson , vindic . c. . p. . the universal church is the whole company of visible believers throughout the whole world . ch . . sect . , . the church visible is called entitive , not because of the inward grace , which is essential to an invisible member ; but from the reception and embracing the christian catholick faith , which is essential to a visible believer . mr. b. himself , plain script . &c. part . ch . . the common definition of the church , affirmeth them to be a people called 〈◊〉 of the world . hence i argue , all that are of the visible church christian are faithfull , called out of the world by the preaching of the word to profess the faith of christ , visible believers receiving and embracing the christian catholick faith . this is proved from the definitions of the church ▪ and positions received . and it is clear in reason , the church being an aggregate , as a flock of sheep , a heap of stones ; as it follows therefore every part of the flock is a sheep , every part of the heap a stone , so every part of the church a believer . but no infant is such . ergo. in this very manner doth guliel . apollonii . considerat . controv . cap. . pag. . argue . thus almost all the famous reformed divines do affir● the matter of a visible church to be men outwardly called , professing the faith of christ. for they define it a company of men called out by an outward calling , or preaching of the word , and communication of sacraments , to the worship of god , and to celebrate ecclesiastical society among themselves . to this mr. m. in his defence , part . sect . pag. . saith . i reply , it overthrows it not at all ; for they all include the infants of such professors , as the visible church among the jews did include their infants , male ( and female too , lest you say that circumcision made them members . ) answ. mr. m. should have shewed who , and in what words of their definitions protestant writers include the infants of professors . that some of them , especially of late , have asserted infants of believers to be a part of the visible church , i grant : but i think mr. m. cannot make it good , that the elder protestant writers did include them in their definitions of the visible church . i have produced some of the later , who have so framed their definitions as that infants must be excluded . and if any do include them , they erre from the scripture , which never accounted them visible christian church members , as is proved before . and sect. . of this part of the review doth sufficiently shew the christian church visible to have another call and constitution from the jewish , and that no person is a member of the christian church visible by natural generation of a believer , but by profession of faith . wherefore mr. m. saith . i adde also , baptism now ( as well as circumcision of old ) is a real , though implicite profession of the christian faith . answ. that circumcision was a profession of the christian faith either explicite in elder proselites , or implicit in infants circumcision , doth not appear . the apostles speech gal. . , . and the tenet of the jewish doctors acts . , . is to the contrary . baptism after a verbal profession of faith by the baptised being his act is a real , though implicit profession of the christian faith , it being used by the baptised to declare his putting on christ , and so a signe of his assent to his verbal profession . but infants baptism is no profession of any faith either explicit or implicit , there being no act done by them tending to make any shew of faith , which they neither understand , nor take ●o bee true upon the trust of their teachers , as papists do in their implicit faith ( which yet we d●ny to be christian faith ) but are every way passive , both in respect of the act of the baptisers , and the reason and end of it , they neither do any thing towards their baptism , nor understand any thing of it . yea were it true that such an implicit profession of faith were in infants baptism , yet were it not enough to make them visible members of the christian church , no not according to the definition of protestant writers , who when they define the church to be a company of professors of faith , do mean more then an implicit profession , to wit , an intelligent and free profession ; and do blame the baptising of the indians by the spaniards , forcing them to own the christian faith afore they understand it , though there bee more implicite profession of the faith by them , then is or can be by an infant . . i argue . they are no visible members of the christian church , to whom no note whereby a visible christian church , or church-membership is discernible doth agree . for that which is visible , is discernable to the understanding , by some sensible note or signe by which it is known : but to infants of believers no note whereby a visible church , or church-member is discernable doth agree , ergo. the minor is proved by shewing the right notes of the visible church and church-members not to agree to infants . the right notes of the christian church and church-members are the profession of the whole christian faith , the preaching and hearing of the word , administration and communion in the sacramen●s , joyning in prayer , discipline , &c. with believers . hudson . vindic . pag. . but none of these agree to infants . not profession of of the whole christian faith , for they neither understand nor shew by any thing they do that they assent to the christian faith . not the preaching or hearing of the word : for infants can neither preach nor hear the word . i mean as it is speech or significative language , though they may hear it as a sound , much less as yeilding assent to it , which hearing alone is a mark of a visible church-member . nor do they administer or have communion in the sacraments : none will say they administer , nor though they should be baptised in water by a minister , or eat bread or drink wine at the lords supper , can it be said they have communion in the sacrament . for he onely hath communion in a sacrament , who useth it as a signe of that for which it is appointed , and this use onely is a note of a visible church-member , otherwise a spaniards forcible baptising of an indian without knowledge of christ should make him partaker of the sacrament , or doing it in sport or jest should make a visible church-member . see mr. b. himself correct . sect . . pag. . but infants neither use baptism nor the lords supper as a signe engaging to christ , with acknowledgement or remembrance of him , therefore they have no communion in the sacraments , no not in baptism , nor is their pretended baptism any note of visible church membership . nor do they joyn in prayer ▪ discipline , or any part of christian worship or service , which might shew they own christ as their lord , and therefore they are not discernable to be of the visible church christian by any right note . . by shewing that the notes whereby they are conceived to bee discernable as visible church-members , are not notes of their visible church-membership . two notes are usually alledged , the one the covenant of god , the other the parents profession of faith ; neither shew them visible christian church-members , nor both together . not the covenant or promise of god : for there is no such covenant that promiseth to every believers childe , much less to every professor of faith's childe saving grace , or visible church-membership , and a promise to save indefinitely , not expressing definitely who , is not a note whereby by this or that person is discernable to be the person to whom it belongs . besides , if there were such a promise to every childe of a believer , yet unless it were a promise of it to them in their infancy , it would not prove they were actually visible church members , but onely that in the future they should be . nor is the parents faith a note of the infants visible church membership . for whether it be a note of it self , or conjunctly with the covenant , it is a note of the infants visible church-membership because it is his child , and if so , then it is a note of his child 's visible church-membership at twenty years of age , though he should be then a professed infidel , as well as a day old , a note of an embryo's visible church-membership in the mothers womb , as well as a childe born , which are absurd . other reason then this i know not . but sure i am there is not the least hint in scripture of a childes being discernable to be a visible christian church-member by the parents faith or profession , but to the contrary . to this argument briefly propounded in my examen of his sermon part . sect . mr. m. replies not in his defence , and therefore i see not but it stands good . . i argue . they who have not the form constituting and denominating a visible christian church-member , are not visible christian church-members . this proposition is most sure according to logick rules , take away the form , the thing formed is not ; if the form denominating agree not the denomination agrees not ; scheibler top. c. . de forma stieri . praec . doct . log tract . . c. . but the form constituting and denominating a visible christian church-member , infants have not : ergo. the minor is proved thus . they which have not the outward profession of faith within , have not the form constituting and denominating a visible christian church-member . for profession of faith , is the form constituting and denominating a visible church-member , as is proved from the constant sayings of divines . ames marrow of divinity , first book c. . § . . faith is the form of the church . § . . visibility is the affection or manner of the church , according to its accidental and outward form . § . . the accidental form is visible , because it is no other thing then the outward profession of inward faith , which may easily be perceived by sense . c. . § . . it is a society of believers , for that same thing in profession constitutes the vis●ble church , which in its inward and real nature makes a mystical church , that is faith. ball trial of separat ▪ c. . p. . a lively operative faith maketh a man a true member of the church invisible ; and the profession of faith and holiness a member of the church visible . norton answer to apollon . ● . prop. . pag. an unmoved position . that same thing in profession constitutes the church visible , which in its inward nature constitutes the mystical church , that is faith ▪ hudson . vindic . ch . p. . every visible believer is called a christian , and a member of christs visible kingdom , because ●he form ( viz. visible believing ) common to all christians and all members is found in him . and this may be proved out of scripture , which denominates visible christian church-members from their own profession of fa●th , in respect of which they are termed believers , tim. . . acts . . & . &c. nor is there any such denomination in scripture , or hint of such a form constituting a visible christian church-member or believer as the faith of another , of the parent , church , &c. it is a meer novel device of papists , who count men believers from an implicit assent to what the church holds ; and paedobaptists , who ascribe unto infants faith and repentance implicit in their sureties , the church , their owners , the nation believing , their parents next or remote faith . which is a gross and absurd conceit . for that in profession alone makes visible believers , which makes in reality true believers . but that 's a mans own faith hab. . . not anothers ; therefore a mans own and not anothers profession of faith makes a visible believer . again , the form denominating must be inherent , or in or belong to the person denominated , so as that there is some union of i● to him , but there is no inherence , or union of anothers faith to an infant , ergo. naturally there is none , nor legally ; if there be , ●et him that can , shew by what grant of god it is . infants may have civil right to their parents goods , a natural interest in their mothers milk , parents , and masters may have power over the bodies , labour , &c. of their children and servants , they have no power to convey faith , or ecclesiastical right without their own consent . but this conceit is so ridiculous , that i need spend no more words to refute i● i subsume . infants make no profession of faith , they are onely passive , and do nothing by which they may bee denominated visible christi●ns as experience shews , yea at the font while the faith is confessed by the parent or surety , and the water sprinkled on their faces they cry , and as they are able oppose it , ergo. to this faith mr. m. i answer , even as much as the infants of the jews could do of old , who yet in their dayes were visible members . answ. the infants of the jews were never christian visible church-members , though they were visible members of the jewish church : but mr. m. neither hath proved nor can , that the same thing , to wit natural birth , and jewish descent and dwelling , which denominated the jewish infants visible members of that church , doth denominate a christian visible church-member . and till he do this , the force of the argument remains . . i argue . if infants bee visible christian church-members , then there may be a visible church christian , which consists onely of infants of believers ; for a number of visible members makes a visible church entitive , though not organical . but this is absurd . ergo , infants of believers have not the form of a visible church-member . to this mr. m , saith , i answer , no more now then in the time of the jewish church ; it 's possible , but very improbable , that all the men and women should die , and leave onely infants behinde them . answ. . it is no absurdity to say that of the jewish church which it is absurd to say of the christian : for the jewish church was the people of god of abrahams , or israels house , which they might be , though but infants . but the christian visible church is a people or company that profess faith in christ , which infants cannot do , and therefore it is absurd to imagine that a christian church visible may bee onely of infants of believers , whereof not one is a believer by profes●ion , not so of ths jewish church . . the possibility acknowledged by mr. m. is enough for my purpose , though it never were or should bee so in the event , sith the absurdity followes upon that grant , as well as the actual event . . i argue . if infants be visible christian church-members , then there is some cause thereof . but there is none , ergo. the major is of it self evident , every thing that is hath some cause by which it is . the minor is proved thus . if infants be visible-christian church members , by some cause , then that is the cause of all infants christian visible church-membership or of some onely . but of neither , ergo. i presume it will be said of some , sith they account it a priviledge of believers infants . but to the conttary , there is no such cause by which infants of believers are christian visible church-members . mr. b. plain script . &c. part . . c. . pag. denies that the parents faith is any cause ( not so much as instrumental properly ) of the childes holiness , by which he means visible church-membership , but he makes it a condition ( which is an antecedent or causa sine qua non ) of childrens holiness . i answer , saith he , fully : if this be the question , what is the condition on which god in scripture bestoweth this infant holiness ? it is the actual believing of the parent : for what it is that hath the promise of personal blessings , it is the same that hath the promise of this priviledge to infants : therefore the promise to us being on condition of believing , or of actual faith , it were vain to say , that the promise to our infants is one●y to faith in the habit : the habit is for the act , yet is the habit of necessity for producing of the act : therefore it is both faith in the habit ( or potentia proxima ) and in the act that is necessary . but yet there is no necessity that the act must be presently at the time performed : either in actu procreandi , vel tempore nativitatis , vel baptismatis . it is sufficient that the parent be virtually and dispositively at present a believer , and one that stands in that relation to christ as believers do : to which end it is requisite that he have actually believed formerly ( or else he hath no habit of faith ) and hath not fallen away from christ , but be still in the disposition of his heart a believer , and then the said act will follow in season ; and the relation is permanent which ariseth from the act , and ceaseth not when the act of faith intermitteth . it is not therefore the meer bare profession of faith which god hath made the condition of this gift , but the former act and present disposition . ch. . pag. . the parents faith is the condition for himself and his infants . the causes of this condition of discipleship or churchmembership may improperly be called the causes of our discipleship it self : but properly christ by his law or covenant grant is the onely cause efficient . pag. . all these church mercies are bestowed on the standing gospel grounds of the covenant of grace entred with our first parents presently upon the fall . pag . the seed of the faithful are church members & disciples , and subjects of christ , because they are children of the promise ; god having been pleased to make the promise to the faithfull and their seed . pag. it is of the very law of nature to to have infants to be part of a kingdome , and therefore infants must bee part of christs kingdome . pag. . that infants must be church members is partly natural and partly grounded on the law of grace and faith. so that mr. bs. opinion is , christ by his law of nature , or nations , or covenant grant on the standing gospel grounds of the covenant of grace , the promise to the faithful and their seed not without actual faith , formerly and present disposition , beyond the meer bare profession of faith , is properly the onely cause efficient of infants membership in the visible church christian. against this i argue . . if there be no such covenant of grace to the faithful and their seed , nor any such promise upon condition of the parents actual faith the childe shall be a visible christian churchmember , nor any such law either of nature or nations , or positive , which makes the childe without his consent a visible christian church-member , then mr. bs. opinion of the cause of infants of believers visible christian churchmembership is false . but the antecedent is true , ergo , the consequent . the minor i shall prove by answering all mr. b. hath brought for it , in that which followes . . the covenant of grace according to mr. b. is either absolute or conditional ; the absolute , according to mr. b. is rather a prediction then a covenant , and it is granted to be onely to the elect , in his appendix answer to the th ▪ and th . object . and elsewhere , and by this covenant god promiseth faith to the person , not visible churchmembership upon the faith of another . the conditional covenant is of justification , salvation on condition of faith , and this p●omiseth not visible churchmembership , but saving graces , it promiseth unto all upon condition , and so belongs to all according to mr. b. therefore by it visible churchmembership christian is not conferred as a priviledge peculiar to believers infants on condition of their faith . . if there were a covenant to the faithful and their seed to be their god , yet this would not prove their infants christian visible church membership ; because god may be their god , and yet they not be visible churchmembers , as he is the god of abraham , of infants dying in the womb , of believers at the hour of death , y●t they not now visible churchmembers . . the promise if it did infer visible church membership , yet being to the seed simply , may be true of them though not in infancy , and to the seed indefinitely may be true if any of them be visible church members , especially considering that it cannot be true of the seed universally and at all times , it being certain that many are never visible churchmembers , as ●ll still-born infants of believers ; many that are visible churchmembers for a time , yet fall away ; and therefore if that promise were gran●ed , and the condition and law put , yet infants might not be visible christian churchmembers . . if all these which mr. b. makes the cause , or condition of infants visible church membership may be in act , and the effect not be , then the cause which mr. b. assignes is not sufficient . but the antececedent is true . for the promise , the parents actual believing , the law of nature , of nations , any particular precept of dedicating the childe to god , the act of dedication as in hannahs vow may be afore the childe is born , and yet then the childe is no visible church member , ergo. the consequence rests on that maxime in logick , that the cause being put , the effect is put . to this mr. b. plain script . proof , &c. pag. . moral causes ( and so remote causes ) might have all their being long before the effect , so that when the effect was produced there should bee no alteration in the cause , though yet it hath not produced the effect by the act of causing . i reply this answer deserved a smile . . for mr. b. as his words shew before cited , makes christ by his law or covenant-g●ant , the onely cause efficient , therefore it is the next cause , according to him , and not onely a remote cause . . if the covenant or law bee as much in being or acting , and the parents faith and dedication afore the childe is born as after , and there is no alteration in the cause , though yet it have not produced the effect , then it is made by m. b. a cause in act , and consequently if the effect be not produced then it is not the cause , or the adequate sufficient cause is not assigned by assigning it . . though moral causes may have their absolute being long before the effect , yet not the relative being of causes , for so they are together . so though the covenant and law might be a covenant and law , yet they are not the cause adequate , and in act ( which mr. b. makes them ) without the being of the effect : nor is there in this any difference between moral and physical causes . and for the instances of mr. b. they are not to the purpose . it is true , election , christs death , the covenant , &c. are causes of remission of sins , imputation of righteousness , salvation , before these be , but they are not the adequate causes in act : for there must be a further act of god , forgiving , justifying , delivering , afore these are actually . they are causes of the justificab●lity , the certainty , futurity of justification of themselves , but not of actual justification without mans faith , and gods sentence , which is the next cause . a deed before one's born , gives him title to an inheritance , but not an actual estate without pleading entering upon it , &c. . i think mr. b. is mistaken in making visible churchmembership , the effect of a moral or legal cause . he imagines it to bee a right or priviledge by vertue of a grant or legal donation . but in this he is mistaken , confounding visible church membership with the benefit or right consequent upon it . whereas the churchmembership and it's visibility are states arising from a physical cause rather then a moral , to wit , the call whereby they are made churchmembers , and that act or signe what ever it be , whereby they may appear to bee churchmembers to the understanding of others by mediation of sense . the priviledge or benefit consequent is by a law , covenant , or some donation legal or moral ; not the state it self of visible churchmembership . which i further prove thus . . if visible churchmembership bee antecedent to the interest a person hath in the covenant , then the covenant is not the cause of it ; for if the covenant be the cause it is by the persons interest in it . but visible churchmembership is immediately upon the persons believing professed , which is a condition of his being in covenant ; therefore it is before the covenant , and consequently the covenant not the cause . , if the covenant or law upon condition of the parents faith as the antecedent or cause without which the thing is not , be ( as mr. b. saith ) the cause of infants visible church membership the sole efficient , then infants bought , orphans of turks , &c. wholly at our dispose , are not visible church members : for they have no covenant made to their parents , nor do their parents believe . but by mr. bs. doctrine pag. . where he would have them baptised , they are visible churchmembers , for such onely are to be baptised , ergo , the covenant is not the sole efficient , there may bee visible church membership without it . the same may be said of foundlings , persons of unknown progeny , &c. . if the covenant or law with the parents actual faith without profession , make not the parent a visible churchmember , neither doth it the childe ; for the childe who is by vertue of the parents being a visible churchmember onely , a visible churchmember , cannot be such without his being such . but the parent by the law or covenant is not made upon his faith a visible churchmember without profession , ergo , the parents faith is not the condition on which god bestoweth the infant holiness , nor is it true that the actual believing which hath the promise of personal blessings , is the same that hath the promise of this priviledge to infants . . if persons are visible church members and not by the covenant of grace , then it is not true , that christ by his law , or covenant of grace is the sole efficient of visible churchmembership . the consequence is plain , and needs no further proof . but the antecedent is true , ergo. the minor is proved by instances of judas and other hypocrites , who are visible churchmembers , but not by the covenant of grace , for that promiseth nothing to them . . if infants be visible churchmembers by the covenant on the condition of the parents actual believing ▪ then either the next parents , or any in any generations precedent . if the next onely , let it be shewed , why the visible churchmembership should be limited to it : if in any near g●nerations , let it be shewed where we must stick , and go no further ; why , suppose the visible churchmembership be stopped at the grandfathers faith so as that we must go no further in our count , the great grandfathers faith should not infer the infants visible . church-membership as well as the grandfathers : if there be no limit ; why this visible churchmembership should not be common to all the infants of the jews , yea to ●ll the world . if the succession be broken off upon the jews unbelief , why not upon the unbelief of each ancestor ? . if an infants visible churchmembership be by the covenant , upon the parents actual believing , and not a meer bare profession , then it is a thing that cannot be known , because the parents actual believing is a thing unknown . but that is absurd . ergo. the major i have confirmed more fully in the first part of this review , sect . . . if other christian priviledges be not conveyed by a covenant upon the parents faith without the persons own act or consent , then neither this . but the antecedent is true , the child is not a believer , a disciple , a minister , a son of god , &c. without his own consent , ergo. the consequence of the major is confirmed in that there is like reason for them as for this . . if there be no law or ordinance of god unrepealed , by which either this infant visible christian churchmembership is granted , or the listing of infants , or entring into the visible church christian is made a duty , then that is not a cause of infants visible churchmembership which mr. b. assigns . but there is no such law or ordinance unrepealed , ergo. if there be it is either by precept or other declaration , but by neither ; ergo. if by precept , in the new testament , or the old : not in the new , there is no precept to minister , or paren●s , or any other , to take infants for visible churchmembers , or to list them as such : nor in the old , there is no such precept i know but that of circumcision , which is repealed ; vowing , praying , &c. did neither then , nor now of themselves make visible churchmembers , although upon the prayers and faith , not onely of parents , but of others , god granted remission of sins , conversion , cure of plagues , yet did not these make any visible churchmembers of themselves . if there be any other declaration of god , it is either a positive law , or law of nations , or of nature : not any positive law , if there be , let it be produced , not any law of nations . this mr. b. sometimes alledgeth , that as it is in kingdomes and civil states the children are subjects and citizens as well as the parents , so in the church : but if this were a rule in the church of god , then not onely ●hildren must be visible churchmembers , but also all the inhabitants where the church is servants , and their children , as all in the territories and dominions of a king are his subjects ; and sith christs kingdome is over all the world , yea if mr. bs. doctrine were right in his sermon of judgement , pag. , . all are bought by christs death , and are his own , every man in the world should be a visible churchmember . nor any law of nature : for though mr. b. sometimes pleads this , yet the vanity of it appears , . in that since the fall of man , the nature of man being corrupt , the call and frame of the church is altogether by grace , and free counsel of god. . churches if they should be fashioned after the way or law of nature , where the husband is , there the wife should be a visible churchmember , as well as where the paaent is a churchmember , there the child should be so too . for the law of nature makes them more nearly in one condition then father and child . but that is false , ergo. . if the law of nature should form churchmembers , then churches should be by natural discent : but that is false , it is by calling , as is above proved . . churches are by institution , therefore not by the law of nature . this is proved from mr. bs. own hypothesis , that they are made churchmembers by grant , covenant , gift on condition . . if they were by the law of nature , all churches should be domestical , not congregational or parochial ; for they are not by nature , but by institution . . if churches should be by the law of nature , they should be formed by an invariable uniform way and model : but they are not so ; they are called sometimes by preachers , sometimes immediately by god , sometimes by authority ; sometimes they are national , sometimes catholick ; sometimes under one form of service and discipline , sometimes under another ; sometimes the son is the means of making the father a visible churchmember , sometimes the father the son ; sometimes the wife of the husband , sometimes the husband of the wife , by which the order of nature is inverted . to all these arguments against infants visible christian-churchmembership , this one may be added , that there is neither example , rule , nor hint in all the new testament , of their admission into the church , or ordering in it , or care of the elders and officers of the church for them as members , nor any other sign that christ would have them reckoned as visible members in the christian church : which is a strong presumption against it . i know none that hath disputed for it , so much as mr. b. i will therefore go on to examine what he saith . sect . liii . letters between me and mr. b. are set down concerning the law and ordinance of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed , which he asserts , whereby the point is stated . that the reader may understand the true state of the dispute between me and mr. b. he is to take notice , that when at first in the dispute at bewdley , jan. . . mr. b. urged for infant baptism his argument of the ordinance or law or appointment of god , whereby infants were once to be admitted members of the visible church , now printed in his book of baptism , ch . . part . i not knowing what other it might be , and he denying it was that of circumcision , urged him often to tell me what it was , which he would not , which occasioned the dispute to be more confused then otherwise it might have been . after , in my praecursor , i again told him , i found it not but in the peculiar national policy of the jews , no universal law or ordinance for it . to which what elusory reply he made , is shewed in the second part o● this review ▪ sect . . pag , . which moved me , being then upon the examining of his th . and th . ch . from bewdley within two miles of kidderminster ▪ to write and send april d. . this letter to him . sir , not finding yet that law or ordinance of infants visible churchmembership which you assert in your book of baptism to be unrepealed , i do request you to set down the particular text or texts of holy scripture where you conceive that law or ordinance is written , and to transmit it to me by this bearer , that your allegations may be considered by him who is yours as is meet ; april . . john tombes . the next morning i received from him this letter , directed to me . sir , i mean to see more said against what i have already written , before i will write any more about infant baptism , without a more pressing call than i yet discern . i have discharged my conscience , and shall leave you and yours to take your course . and indeed i do not understand the sence of your letter , because you so joyn two questions in one , that i know not which of the two it is that you would have me answer to . whether there were any ordinance or law of god that infants should be churchmembers ? is one question : whether this be repealed is another : you joyn both into one . for the first , that infants were churchmembers , as you have not yet denied that i know of , so will i not be so uncharitable as to imagine that you are now about it : and much less that you should have the least doubt whether it were by gods ordination . there are two things considerable in the matter . first , the benefit of churchmembership , with all the consequent priviledges . it is the work of a grant or promise to confer these , and not directly of a precept . secondly , the duty of devoting and dedicating the child to god , and entring it into the covenant which confers the benefit ; and this is the work of a law or precept to constitute this duty i am past doubt that you doubt not of either of these : for you cannot imagine , that any infant had the blessing without a grant or promise , ( that 's impossible ; ) nor that any parents lay under a duty without an obliging law , ( for that 's as impossible . ) taking it therefore for granted that you are resol●ed in both these , and so yeeld that such a grant and precept there was , there remains no question but whether it be repealed : which i have long expected that you should prove . for citing the particular texts in which the ordination is contained , though more may be said then is said , yet i shall think it needless , till i see the ordination contained in those texts which i have already mentioned to you , proved to be reversed . nor do i know that it is of so great use to stand to cite the particular texts , while you confess in general , that such a promise and preeept there is , by vertue of which , infants were till christs time duly members of christs church ( for christs church it was ) even his unive●sal visible church . still remember that i take the word [ law ] not strictly for a precept onely , but largely , as comprehending ●oth promise and precept , and i have already shewed you both and so have others . so much of your endeavour as hath any tendency to the advancement of holiness , i am willing to second yo● in ; viz. that at the age yo● desire people might solemnly profess their acceptance of christ , and their resolution to be 〈◊〉 : but i hope god will find me better work while i must stay here , then to spend my time to prove that no infants of believers are within christs visible church , that is , are no infant disciples , infant christians , infant churchmembers . i know no glory it will bring to christ , nor comfort to man , nor see i now any appearance of truth in it . i bless the lord for the benefits of the baptismal covenant that i enjoyed in infancy , and that i was dedicated so soon to god , and not left wholly in the kingdome and power of the devil . they that despise this mercy , or account it none , or not worth the accepting , may go without it , and take that which they get by their ingratitude . and i once hoped , that much less then such an inundation of direful consequents as our eyes have seen , would have done more for the bringing of you back to stop the doleful breach that you have made . i am fain to spend my time now to endeavour the recovery of some of your opinion who are lately turned quakers , or at least the preventing of others apostacy : which is indeed to prevent the emptying of your churches . which i suppose will be a more acceptable work with you , then again to write against rebaptizing , or for infant-baptism . sir , i remain your imperfect brother , knowing but in part , yet loving the truth ; rich. baxter . being the same day to return home , yet loth to be put off thus , i wrote immediately upon the reading of his letter , this also to him . sir , i confess infants were by gods fact of taking the whole people of the jews for his people , in that estate of the jewish paedagogy ( not by any promise or precept ) visible church members , that is of the congregation of israel . i do not confess that there was any law or ordinance determining it should be so , but onely a fact of god , which is a transeunt thing , and i think it were a foolish undertaking for mee to prove the repeal of a fact . wherefore still i press you that you would shew me where that law , ordinance , statute or decree of god is that is repealeable , that is , which may in congruous sence bee either by a later act said to be repealed , or else to be established as a law for ever . this i never found in your books , nor do i conceive that law is implied in any thing i grant ; and therefore i yet pray you to set me down the particular text or texts of holy scripture where that law is . which need not hinder you from opposing the quakers ( in which i have not and hope shall not be wanting ) of whom i think that you are misinformed that they are anabaptists , i think there are very few of them that were ever baptised , and have good evidence that they have been formerly seekers , as you call them . and i think you do unjustly impute the direfull consequences you speak of to the denial of infant baptism , and to the practise of adult bap●ism , and that as your self are deceived so you mislead others . i yet expect your texts , knowing none in any of your books that mention that law of infants visible churchmembership which you assert either explicitly or implicitly , and am yours as is meet ; bewdley this th . of april . . john tombes . about a fortnight after i received this letter to me from him . sir , if you will needs recall me to this ungrateful work , let me request you to tell me fully , exactly and plainly , what transient fact you mean , which you conceive without law or promise did make church members : that so i may know where the competition lieth . when i know your meaning , i intend , god willing , to send you a speedy answer to your last . your fellow-servant , april . . rich. baxter . upon the receipt whereof , i speedily returned to him , on the day of the date of it , being then at bewdley , this following letter . sir , the transeunt fact of god , whereby infants were visible churchmembers , was plainly exprest in my last to you , to be the taking of the whole people of the jews for his people , which is the expression of moses , deut. . . exod. . . and by it i mean that which is expressed levit. . . . when god said , i have severed you from other people , that you should be mine . the same thing is expressed kings . . isai , . this i term [ fact ] as conceiving it most comprehensive of the many particular acts in many generations , whereby he did accomplish it . following herein stephen , acts . . and nehem ▪ . . i conceive it began when he called abraham out of ur , gen. . . to which succeeded in their times the enlarging of his family , removing of lot , ishmael , the sons of keturah , esau , distinction by circumcision , the birth of isaac , jacob , his leading to padan aram , increase there , removal to canaan , to aegypt , placing , preserving there , and chiefly the bringing of them thence , to which principally the scripture refers this fact , exod. . . levit. . . nehem. . . hos. . . the bringing them into the bond of the covenant at mount sinai , giving them laws , settling their priesthood , tabernacle , army , government , inheritance . by which fact the infants of the israelites were visible churchmembers as being part of the congregation of israel , and in like manner though not with equal right ( for they might be sold away ) were the bought servants or captives , whether infants or of age , though their parents were professed idolaters . and this i said was without promise or precept , meaning such promise or precept as you in your letter say i confess , and you describe , a promise conferring to infants the benefit of churchmembership with all the consequent priviledges , a precept constituting the duty of devoting and dedicating the childe to god , and entering into covenant , which confers the benefit . for though i grant the promises to the natural posterity of abraham , gen. . , , , , . and the covenant made with israel at mount sinai , and deut. . wherein israel avouched god , and a precept of circumcision , and precepts of god by moses of calling the people , and requiring them to enter into covenant , exod. . and deut. . yet no such particular promise concerning infants visible churchmembership , or precept for parents or others , concerning the solemn admission of infants as visible churchmembers , besides circumcision , as in your book of baptism you assert . nor do i conceive that infants of israel were made visible church members by the promises in the covenants or the precepts forenamed , but by gods transeunt fact which i have described . which i therefore term [ transeunt ] because done in time , and so not eternal , and past , and so not in congruous sense repealeable as a law , ordinance , statute , decree , which determines such a thing shall bee for the future , though capable of continuance in the same or the like acts , or of interruption . which continuance or interruption is known by narration of what god hath done , not by any legal revocation , or renewing , or continuance of a promise or precept concerning that thing . now as the churchmembership of the israelites began as i conceive with abrahams call , and was completed when they were brought out of aegypt to god , exod. . . so i conceive it ceased when upon their rejection of christ as was fore●told matth. . . they were broken off from being gods people , which was completed at the destruction of jerusalem , when the temple was destroyed , as christ fore-told luke . , . and instead of the jewish people by the preaching of the gospel confirmed by mighty signes , god gathered to himself a church of another frame in a spiritual way , according to the institution of christ , matth. . , . mark . , . in which he included not infants , the jews themselves were no part of the christian church without repentance and faith in christ professed at least . having now fully , exactly ▪ and plainly told you my meaning as you request , i do now expect your speedy answer to my last , and therein to fulfill my request of setting down the particular texts of holy scripture wherein that law largely taken comprehending promise and precept of infants visible churchmembership , which you assert to be unrepealed , is contained . if you shall in your answer set down wherein the blessing , benefit , and priviledges of infants visible churchmembership , which you assert unrepealed , did consist ; i may better understand you then i do : but i shall press you no further then you shall be willing in this thing . i am , yours as is meet , bewdley , april . . john tombes . on may . . i received this following answer . sir , a probability of doing or receiving good , is to me a call to action . seeing no such probability , i told you at first my purposes to forbear any further debates with you , till you had better answered what is said . in your next you seemed to deal so plainly , as if some small probability of good did yet appear : but in your d. you fly off again and eat your own words , and jumble things in much confusion , so that i now return again to my former thoughts . for you that expresly say and unsay , and contradict your self , are not likely to be brought to a candid management or fair issue of the dispute . you 'l sure think it no great matter to be driven to a self contradiction ( which with others is to lose the cause ) who so easily and expresly run it upon it your self . answ. it was a call sufficient to mr. b. to do what i requested in my first letter , in that a brother and fellow servant ( as he takes me to be ) desired it of him . if he love the truth ▪ as he saith , he should be willing to let us know his scriptures he alledgeth for that which he asserts as a truth . if he conceive himself imperfect , knowing but in part , why should he not be jealous of his own opinion , especially resting on remote consequences , rather then violently oppose mine , which his own acknowledgements do make plainly agreeing with the new testament ? if i were a sophistical adversary , yet i should think it were meet mr. b. should debate that with me which he hath so clamourously and confidently opposed me in . what better answer i need make to what is said then i have done , so far as i have gone ( which is if not the greatest part , yet the chiefest , and indeed for scripture texts all that requires an answer ) i see not . i have set down almost all my antagonists words , in mr. bs. book , at least all that is argumentative and pertinent , with my answers distinctly , fully , and plainly , in the two foregoing parts of this review : and what way any man could take , more candid and agreeing to logick rules , then i have gone in my answers , is yet to me undiscernable . mr. firmin , in his separation examined , pag. . saith thus , i can easily discern mr. tombes to dispute more like a sophister , then a christian , that did desire to see truth : and he cites the words of mr. m. in his defence , pag. . which i have answered so fully in my apology , pag. , . and shewed that very way which mr. m. chargeth me with , to be as contrary to sophistical disputing as light is to darkness , that i had thought impudence it self would not have charged me with that , in a book printed six years after the edition of my apology . mr. simon ford , in his epistle dedicatory to his frivolous scribbled dialogue , chargeth me with railing down rather then disputing , even in that which as he sets it down hath no shew of reviling , but a plain calling a straw a straw . and for my heavy censure , i still profess i know not how to conceive more favourably of paedobaptists , but wish they would search their own hearts impartially . mr. gataker in his letter printed by mr. b. to whom it was written , doubts in part it to be my disposition to braze my forehead , not regarding at all what men deem or say of me , so i may seem to say somewhat , and have the last word ; then which , a more unrighteous conceit could hardly have been entertained by him . mr. bs. printing it , together with other passages , makes me almost hopeless of ever meeting with any just , or candid dealing from paedobaptists . mr. b. here saith , i jumble things in much conf●sion , that i contradict my self , eat my own words ; none of which is true : but he takes on him to prove it thus . in your d. you say [ i confess infants were by gods fact of taking the whole people of the jews for his people , in that estate of the jewish paedagogy , not by any promise or precept , then visible churc●-members , that is , of the congregation of israel ; i do not confess , that there was any law or ordinance determining it should be so , but onely a fact of god , which is a transeunt thing , &c. ] in your d. you say [ for though i grant the promises to the natural posterity of abraham gen. . , , , . and the covenants made with israel at mount sinai , and deut , . wherein israel avouched god , and a precept of circumcision , and precepts of god by moses of calling the people , and requiring of them to enter into covenant , exod. . & deut. . yet no such particular promise concerning infants visible churchmembership , or precept for paren●s or others concerning the solemn admission of infants as visible churchmembers besides circumcision , as in your book of bapt. you assert ] before there was no [ law or ordinance determining it should be so , but onely a fact ] now there are laws or precepts and promises that it should be so , but [ not such as i assert in my book ] and if i should shew you never so many , you may reply , they are not such as i assert in my book , and waste the time in that trial , when it is better for me to see first what you say to that book : for this is but to lead us about to trifling . answ. . there is not a shadow of self contradiction in the latter words to the former . for though the latter acknowledge promises to israel , yet not that by them they were visible churchmembers ; and laws and ordinances , yet not determining they should be visible churchmembers . had mr. b. heeded my words , he had forborn this accusation , if he were not bent to find a knot in a bulrush . . if i should answer as he forebodes , i should answer rightly . and it is certain , that if mr. b. should bring never so many promises , and not shew that they made infants visible churchmembers , as he asserts in his book , he would waste time , and lead us about to trifling ; and therefore it is just i should tie him to that , and his excepting against my so doing would shew his wrangling , and will be taken for a losing of his cause . but i am resolved to follow him , even in his vagaries , and to examine whether it be true which he saith , that i jumble things in much confusion . to make any clear work , saith mr. b. upon the things in question we must necessarily speak to the questions distinctly , many of which you too much confound . the first question in order fit to be resolved is [ whether infants before christs incarnation were churchmembers ? or not ? ] you grant they were : and therefore this is past dispute with us . the d. qu. and tho first unresolved , is [ what church it is that infants were members of ? ] this you give me occasion to take in the way , because you twice explain your meaning , when you confess them churchmembers , by an [ i. e. of the congregation of israel . ] by which you seem to imply two things : first , that none but the infants of the congregation of israel were churchmembers : secondly , that the infants of israel were members of no church but what is convertible with the congregation of israel . ] the d. qu. is ▪ what it is that gives the israelites that denomination of [ the congregation of israel ] of which infants were members . for you jumble both together , both causes civil , and ecclesiastical , and of both those that make to the being and well-being . so that our enquiry must be whether the congregation and the commonwealth be the same thing in your sense ? ] and what constituteth it formally ? for in this you speak in dark ambiguities . the th . qu ▪ is ▪ [ whether there was any law , ordinance , or precept of god concerning mans duty herein , or obliging him to the covenant acceptance and engagement , and so to membership and any promise , grant , or covenant , conferring the right of churchmembership and the consequent priviledges to infants ? ] to this you say both yea and nay , if i can understand you , or at least as to much of the qu. concerning the being , and part of the effect of the precept and promise . yet you conclude , that you [ do not conceive that infants of israel were made ●isible churchmembers by the promises in the covenants , or the precepts fore named , but by gods transeunt fact . ] i will not suspect that you imagine any other promise doth it besides that in the covenant , because your tying the effect to the transeunt fact doth exclude them . here we are cast upon these qus . next . th . qu. [ whether there be such precepts and promises as you grant ( or as i shall prove ) which yet make not infants churchmembers ? ] th . qu. [ whether there be any transeunt fact of god , which without the efficiency of precept or promise did make the infants of israel churchmembers ? ] th . qu. [ whether those which you have assigned be such facts ? ] th . [ which are the texts of scripture that contain or express the said laws , precepts , or grants which i maintain ? ] this you insist upon . th . [ whether such laws , preceps , or grants as i shall prove , are capable of a repeal or revocation ? ] th . qu. [ whether they are actually revoked or repealed ? ] answ. the th . qu. is the onely qu. needfull to be resolved ▪ all the rest are brought in to clog the dispute , to weary me , and the reader , in an indirect way most of them raised out of my words ; in which if i should be mistaken , yet were it not thereby proved , that there is such a law or ordinance of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed , as mr. b. asserts . nor by waving of these questions did i jumble things in much confusion , but decline drawing in things impertinent . nevertheless , sith mr. b. hath used these shifts to clog the dispute , i am resolved to prosecute it in his method , having first premon shed the reader , that many things here said are not true , as that i seem to imply that the infants of israel were members of no church but what is convertible with the congregation of israel ; that i jumble both causes civil and ecclesiastical , and of both those that make to the being and well being ; that i say yea and nay to the th . qu. that i tie the effect to the transeunt fact . he adds . before all these qs. are well handled , we should easily be convinced that it had been better either have let all alone , or else , if we must needs have the other bout , at least to have agreed on our terms , and the stating of the questions better before we had begun . and i think that even that is not easie to do . for when i desired your plain exact and full explication of one word [ transeunt fact ] and you tell me you have plainly , fully , and exactly told me your meaning : it falls out , either through the unhappy darkness of my own understanding , or yours , that i know but little more of your mind then i did before , and that you seem to me to have raised more doubts and darkness then you have resolved and dissipated . yet being thus far drawn in , i shall briefly say somewhat to the several qs. not following your desires to answer one alone : which cannot be done to any purpose while the foregoing are unresolved , because it is the clearing up of truth , and not the serving of your present ends in your writings now in hand that i must intend . answ. i affect no more bouts with such a captious wrangler , nor know i any need to dispute so many questions , or to agree on terms ; i shall answer him as i see meet . what he desired i gave him , not onely an explication of one word , but also of the thing , which that it raiseth so many doubts , seems not to be from the darkness of the understanding , but either from the lightness of the fancy , or the bent of the will to find a way to blunt the readers attention ere he comes to the th . qu. which it was just mr. b. should have answered alone , sith otherwise it were an unjust thing for him to put me to prove a repeal of i know not what . his serving me hereby in my present ends of writing had been equal , my ends and writing being onely for the truth : his appear to be for a shift to uphold a while by indirect courses a tottering corruption , which must fall . i follow him . sect . liv. infants were visible churchmembers onely in the congregation of israel . the first question ( saith mr. b. ) being resolved that infants were once churchmembers , to the resolving of the second question , i shall prove these two propositions . . that it was not onely the infants of the congregation of israel that were churchmembers . . the infants of israel were members of the universal visible church , and not onely of that particular congregation . the first i have proved already in my book . and . isaac was a churchmember , yet none of the congregation of israel ; it was not israel till jacobs days . if you say that by the [ congregation of israel ] you mean [ the seed of abraham which had the promise of canaan ] yet . i say , that ishmael and abrahams seed by keturah and esau had none of the promise , and yet were churchmembers in their infancy . [ in isaac shall thy seed be called ] that is that seed which hid the promise of canaan . and so it was confined to jacob , who got the blessing and the birthright , which esau lost , and was excluded , yet was of the church from his infancy . the son of the bond woman was not to be heir with the son of the free-woman , yet was ishmael an infant member . if you say , that by [ the congregation of israel ] you mean all the natural seed of abraham : i add . the children of his bond men born in his family , or bought with money , were none of abrahams natural seed , and yet were churchmembers in their infancy . if you go yet further , and say , that by [ the congregation of israel ] you mean all that were at the absolute dispose of abraham or his successors , and so were his own : i add . the i●fants of free proselyt●s were none such , and yet were churchmembers . if you yet go further , and say , that you mean by [ the congregation of israel ] any that came under the government of abraham or his successors : then i add . that the sichemites , gen. . were not to come under jacobs government , but to be his allies and neighbours , being so many more in number then jacob , that they concluded rather that his cattel and substance should be theirs ; yet were they circumcised every male , and so were made members of the visible professing church . for it was not the bare external sign that jacob or his sons would perswade them to , without the thing signified : for the reproach that they mentioned of giving their daughter to the uncircumcised ; was not in the defect of the external abcision ; for so moses own son , and all the israelites in the wilderness should have been under the same reproach , and all the females continually : but it was in that they were not in covenant with the same god , and did not profess to worship the same god in his true way of worship as they did . and therefore as baptizing is not indeed and in scripture sence baptizing , if it be not used for engagement to god , even into his name ; so circumcision is not indeed and in scripture sence circumcision , unless it be used as an engaging sign , and they be circumcised to god. answ. by [ the congregation of israel ] i meant the same with the hebrew people , or house of abraham ▪ which i termed the congregation of israel by an anticipation usual in scripture ; as when , gen. . . it is said that abraham removed unto a mountain on the east of bethel , though it were not so named till jacobs time , gen. . . which term i the rather chose , because it is most frequent in scripture ; and i remember not the phrase any where [ the church or congregation of abraham , but of israel ] in scripture , the phrase of which i thought best to use . now taking the congregation of israel for the hebrew people or the house of abraham , i say , the infants onely of the congregation of israel , as i say here , sect. . by birth property , or proselytism were visible churchmembers . nor is it any thing against this my tenet , that the sichemites infants , gen. . were visible churchmembers ; for they were circumcised as consenting to become one people with them as is expressed v. , . and therefore of the congregation of israel . so that what ever were the reason of the reproach , v. . what ever were the ends of jacobs sons or the sichemites , how ever the fact is to be construed , or it be to be judged that they were circumcised or not , yet that instance proves not visible churchmembership of infants any where but in the congregation of israel , sith the sichemites if they were truly circumcised , and so visible churchmembers , it was because they were by agreement one people , and so of the congregation of israel . mr. b. adds . . it was then the duty of all the nations round about ( if not of all the nations on earth , that could have information of the jewish religion ) to engage themselves and their children to god by circumcision . that all that would have any alliance and commerce with the jewes must do it , is commonly confessed : that it must extend to infants , the case of the sichemites ( though deceitfully drawn to it by some of jacobs sons ) doth shew , and so doth the jewish practice which they were to imitate : that the same engagement to the same god is the duty of all the world , is commonly acknowledged , though divines are not agreed whether the distant nations were obliged to use circumcision the jewish sign . the best of the jews were zealous to make proselytes , and no doubt but the very law of nature did teach them to do their best for the salvation of others . to think such charitable and holy works unlawfull , is to think it evil to do the greatest good . and if they must perswade the neighbour nations to come in to god by coven●nt engagement , they must perswade them to bring their children with them , and to devote ●hem to god as well as th●mselves . for the jews knew no other covenanting or engaging to god. as the sichemites must do , so other nations must do : for what priviledge had the children of the sichemites above the rest of the world ? answ. this argument in form would be thus . if it were the duty of all the nations round about to engage themselves and their children to god by circumcision , then it was not onely the infants of the congregation of israel that were church members . but the antecedent is true , ergo the consequent . of this argument i deny the consequence of the major , and the minor also . i deny the consequence , because they that did engage themselves and children to god by circumcision , did thereby ingraff themselves and children into the congregation of israel . i deny also the minor . for though i acknowledge it was the duty of all the world to engage themselves to god by covenanting to take him for their god , yet i do not conceive that they were all bound to do it by circumcision . for i conceive that precept given onely to the hebrews or house of abraham . in whi●h i am confirmed , in that i finde not that sem , melchisedeck , lot , job , ever did so or are blamed for not doing it . it is most certain that cornelius , though a man that feared god with all his house , yet was neither he nor his house circumcised , acts . . & . . and yet accepted of god. it is true , if any would keep the passeover , and be admitted to the rites of the tabernacle , he was to be circumcised with his males : but they might devote and engage themselves and children to god without it , nor was it necessary that god should be their god in covenant or to their salvation that they were circumcised , or joyned to the people of the jews . i confess it was of much moment to reduce the nations , and to preserve them from the idolatry that defi●ed the world , to be of that people : for generally the uncircumcised who were aliens from the commonwealth of israel , were without god in the world , without christ , without hope aliens from the covenants of promise ; and therefore it was a good office to endeavour to bring the nations to god by circumcision , and a desirable advantagious thing , as it is now to be in a well ordered fixed church , yet i cannot say it is or was necessary for all , either as a duty or means of salvation to do either . mr. b. goes on . . ●n hesters time many of the people became jews hest. . . who yet were not under their government . and to be jewes is to be of the jewish profession . and it ●s well known that this was to be circumcised , they and their little ones ( as the proselytes were ) and so to keep the law of moses . answ. though they were not under the jewes government in respect of all power and command , yet they were incorporated into the jewish people , and were under their government as far as other jews by birth were , having some exercise and liberty of using their own lawes , though with subjection also to the persian princes . i confess their being jews was by circumcising of them and their males , but hereby is not proved that any infants were visible churchmembers but in the congregation of israel , but rather the contrary . sith they were become jews , that is of the congregation of israel . . saith mr. b. the scattered and captivated jews themselves were from under the government of abrahams successors , and yet were to circumcise their children as churchmembers . answ. though they were from under the government of abrahams successor in respect of all power and command , yet they were under their government so far , as they were permitted the exercise of the mosaick lawes , and were of the congregation of israel , and were circumcised as members thereof ; and therefore no infants yet proved visible church-members out of that congregation . . saith mr. b. when jonas preached to ninive , it was all the race of man among them , without exception , from the greatest to the least , that was to fast and joyn in the humiliation : ergo , all , even infants as well as others , were to partake of the remission . if you say , the beasts were to fast too : i answer , as they were capable in their kinde of part of the curse , so were they of part of the benefit , but their capacity was not as mans : they fasted to manifest mans humiliation . and if by the humiliation of the aged the beasts sped the better in their kinde , no wonder if infants sped the better in theirs , and according to their capacities , and that was to have a remission suitable to their sin . answ. all this is quite from the business , for it proves not that either the aged or the infants were visible churchmembers out of the congregation of israel . if the fasting prove the visible churchmembership , it proves the visible churchmembership of the beasts as well as the infant-men . if the repentance bee alledged to prove it , i hardly think such a sudden quickly past repentance will prove any of them visible churchmembers of christ , any more then the mariners prayer , fear , sacrificing , making vowes , jonah . . . if it do , yet it proves onely the aged who turned from their evil way , jonah . . to be visible churchmembers ; there 's no proof yet of an infants visible churchmembership out of the congregation of israel . . saith mr. b. what i have said of sem and many others , and their posterity already ▪ i shall not here again repeat : and more will be said anon to the following questions . answ. what is said shall be answered in its place . mr. b. goes on thus . the d . proposition to be proved is , that [ the israelites children were members of the universal visible church of christ as well as of the congregation of israel ] but this you did heretofore acknowledge , and therefore i suppose will not now deny . i suppose it past controversie between us ; . that christ had then a church on earth . as abraham saw christs day and rejoyced , and moses suffered the reproach of christ , heb. . . and the prophets enquired of the salvation by christ , and searched diligently , and prophesied of the grace to come , and it was the spirit of christ which was in those prophets signifying the time , and testifying before hand the sufferings of christ , and the glory that should follow , pet. . , . so were they part of the church of christ , and members of the body of christ ▪ and given for the edification of that body : though it was revealed to them that the higher privigledes of the church after the comming of christ , were not for them but for us , pet. . . . i suppose it agreed on also between us , that there was no true church or ecclesiastical worshipping society appointed by god in all the world since the fall , but the church of christ , and therefore either infants were members of christs church , or of no church of gods institution . moses church and christs church according to gods institution were not two , but one church . for moses was christs usher , and his ceremonies were an obscurer gospel to lead men to christ : and though the foolish jewes by mis-understanding them made a separation , and made moses disciples to bee separate from christs disciples , and so set up the alone [ shadowes of things to come , yet the body is all of christ ] col. . . and by so doing they violated gods institution , and unchurcht themselves . . i suppose it agreed also , that christs church is but one , and that even those of all ages that are not at once visible , yet make up one body . . and that therefore whoever is a member of any particular church is a member of the universal . ( though the church was more eminently called catholike , when the wall of separation was taken down . ) but i remember i have proved this in my book , part . . chap. . and therefore shall say no more now . answ. i grant as i did heretofore , that the israelites children were members of the universal visible church of christ , as well as of the congregation of israel , or rather in that they were of the congregation of israel , nor do i deny that christ had then a church on earth , nor that there was no true church , or ecclesiastical worshipping society appointed by god in all the world since the fall but the church of christ. but as for the third , though i grant that christs invisible church is but one by unity of the same spirit and faith , and that the visible church is but one in some respect , namely in respect of the profession o● the same faith and hope in christ : yet they are not so one , as that whoever is a visible member of one particular church , is a member of each particular church ; and though i yeild that whoever is a member of any particular church is a member of the universal , yet it follows not , which is it that mr. b. drives at , and vainly talks of his proving it elsewhere , as will be shewed hereafter ) that every one who was a member of the universal church , in that he was a member of the jewish church particular , was a visible member of every particular visible church of christ ; nor that every one that was a member of the universal church , in that hee was a member of a visible particular church of christ , was a visible member of the jewish particular church . as for instance , cornelius and his house who feared god , acts . . were visible members of that particular church of his house , and so of the universal , yet were not visible members of the particular church jewish , as may bee proved from their uncircumcision and shunning as unclean by the jews , acts . & . . the reason is manifest : for the universal hath not a distinct existence from the parts , nor is any part existing in another part , because it is part of the whole , as the finger is not in every part of the body because it is in the body , in that it is in the hand , which is a part . and therefore mr. bs. arguing ( which he confides so much in , part . . ch . . of plain script . &c. ) will appear to be vain ; that because infants were visible members of the church universal , in that they were of the church jewish , therefore they are in the christian , properly so called , contradistinct to the jewish . which speech i use , as commonly divines do , because though the jewish church were christs church , yet the appellation of christians being not afore the dayes of the apostles acts . . we may fitly say the church in the wilderness was not the christian properly so called , that is , which is gathered out of the nations by the apostles preaching , nor moses in the christian church , nor cornelius in the jewish church , as aegypt though in africa , and persia though in asia , yet are not said to be in asia the less , or africa propria . mr. b. proceeds . concerning the matter of the third qu. i assert that [ it was not onely of the jewes commonwealth that infants were members of , but of the church distinct from it . ] this is proved sufficiently in what is said before . ] answ. as yet i do not finde it proved , that the jewish church was distinct from the commonwealth , or that there was any member of the church who was not of the commonwealth . what is said about it , sect . . may be there seen by the reader . moreover , saith mr. b. . infants were churchmembers in abrahams family before circumcision , and after when it was no commonwealth . so they were in isaacs , jacobs , &c. answ. abrahams family , and isaacs , and jacobs , were a common-wealth , although they were but small ; they had government within themselves . abraham had his trained servants and made war of himself , gen. . . isaac made a league as a prince co●ordinate , gen. . . so did jacob , gen. . . these with other acts shew they were an independent commonwealth . . saith mr. b. the banished , captivated , scattered jews , that ceased to bee members of their commonwealth , yet ceased not to bee of the church . answ. they were then of the commonwealth of the jews , as they were of the church , both de jure , and de facto , they acknowledging themselves to be of that people , and to a●here to their laws , although somewhat restrained of their liberty , as a captivated , imprisoned king or subject is head or member of that republique to which he hath not access . . saith mr. b. the people of the land , that became jews in hesters time , joyned not themselves to their commonwealth : nor the sichemites . answ. the contrary is true ▪ as concerning the sichemites is shewed before . . saith he , many proselytes never joyned themselves to their commonwealth . answ. those proselytes were not of the jewish church visible members . . saith he , the children of abraham by keturah , when they were removed from his family were not unchurched ; and yet were no members of the jewes commonwealth . but i shall take up with what is said for this already , undertaking more largely to manifest it , when i perceive it necessary and useful . answ. abrahams children by keturah , when out of the common-wealth of the hebrews were unchurched , at least , in respect of the church of the hebrews ; nor do i conceive mr. bs. larger manifestation of the contrary , will be any thing but more words without proof . sect . lv. infants of the jewes were not visible churchmembers , by promise , or precept ; as mr. b. teacheth . mr. b. proceeds . to the th . qu. i assert that [ . there was a law or precept of god obliging the parents to enter their children into covenant with god , by accepting his favour , and re-engaging and devoting them to god , and so entering them solemnly churchmembers . ] and [ . there was a covenant , promise or grant of god , by which he offered the church-membership of some infants and actually conferred it , where his offer was accepted . ] i should have mentioned this first , and therefore will begin with the proof of this . by these terme ▪ covenant , promise , grant , or deed of gift , &c. we understand that which is common to all these , viz. [ a s●gne of gods will conferring or confirming a right to or in some benefit ] such as we commonly call a civil act of collation as distinct from a mere physical act of disposal . i call it [ a signe of gods will de jure ] because that is the general nature of all his legal moral acts ▪ they are all signal determinations de debiro ▪ of some due . . i say conferring or confirming right to some benefit ] to d●fference it from precepts which onely determine what shall be due from us to god , and from threatnings , which determine what punishment shall be due from god to us . answ. that which mr. b. asserts here , is in opposition to what i said in my d . le●ter ; i confess infants were by gods fact of taki●g the whole people of the jews for his people , in that estate of the jewish paedagogy ( not by any promise or precept ) visible churchmembers , that is of the congregation of israel ▪ and in my d. i explai● my self , a promise conferri●g infants the benefit of churchmembership , with all the consequent priviledges , a precept constituting the duty of devoting and dedicating the child to god , and entring into covenant , which confers the benefit ( which were his own words in his first letter ) so that if we prove by any other gr●nt or deed of gift , physical or moral , which is not a promise of it , by which it is conferred , or by any law which is not such a pr●cept , he contradicts not my speech , and so disputes not ad idem . which whether he do or no , will be perceived by examining what follows . having thus , saith he , explained the terms , i prove the proposition . if infants churchmembership with the priviledges thereof were a benefit conferred , which some had right to or in , then was there some grant , covenant , or promise , by which this right was conferred : but the antecedent is most certain : ergo , so is the consequent . i suppose you will not deny that it was a benefit to be the covenanted people of god ▪ to have the lord engaged to bee their god , and to take them for his people ▪ to bee brought so near him , and to bee separated from the common and unclean , from the world , and from the strangers to the covenant of promises , that live as without god in the world , and without hope . answ. i do not deny it , but i deny that this is to be visible church-members formally , or connexively . for men may be visible church-members , and yet not have all this benefit , and they may have all this benefit who are not visible churchmembers . hypocrites may be visible churchmembers , yet not be gods covenanted people to have the lord engaged to be their god , and to take them for his people , to be brought so near him , &c. and some believing saints that are dumb , may have all this , and yet not be visible churchmembers . mr. b. adds , if it were asked what benefit had the circumcision ? i suppose you would say , much every way . answ. i should , but i would add ; that to bee the circumcision is not all one as to be visible churchmembers : cornelius and his house were visible churchmembers yet not the circumcision : nor were the benefits mentioned rom. . . conferred to them as visible church-members , ( for then all visible churchmembers had been partakers of the same benefits , they had had the oracles of god committed to them , the giving the law , christ from them after the flesh , &c. rom. . , . which is raise ) but as to a people specially loved and gratified with these priviledges . he adds . if infant-churchmembership were no benefit , then they that had it , were not ( when they came to age or their parents in the mean time ) obliged to any thankfulness for it . but they were obliged to be thankful for it . ergo , it was a benefit . answ. visible churchmembership simply notes onely a state , by which was a benefit . by the infant visible jewish churchmembership was a benefit of honour and special dignity above other people , which god then vouchsafed to the jews , and do●h not so now to infants of believing christians as such , and for it the jew parents and children were to be thankful . he goes on . the next thing in the antecedent to be proved is , that there was a right conferred to this benefit , and some had a right in it . and . if any had the benefit , then had they right to or in that benefit : but some had the benefit , ergo. the consequence of the major is certain . . because the very nature of the benefit consisteth in a right to further benefits . . if any had the benefit of church-membership , covenant-interest , &c. without right ; then they had it with gods consent and approbation or without it . not with it : for hee is just , and consenteth not that any have that which hee hath not some right to or in , not without it : for no man can have a benefit from god against his will , or without it . . if no infants had duely and rightfully received this benefit , god would have somewhere reprehended the usurpation and abuse of his ordinances or benefits . but that hee doth not as to this case , ergo. . god hath expressed this right in many texts of scripture , of which more afterward . answ. mr. b. is guilty of that which he chargeth me with unjustly , jumbling things together which are to be distinguished , visible churchmembership , right to or of visible churchmembership , to the benefits of it , duly and rightfully receiving of it . the infants of the jews were visible churchmembers , not by a legal right to it , antecedent to their being such visible churchmembers , which they or any for them might claim as due ; nor was it capable of duly and rightfully being received or usurped : for it was nothing but a state of appearing to be part of that people , who were in appearance from things sensible , gods people ; and this they had by gods fact of making them to be a part of that people visibly , to wit , his forming them and bringing them into the world , and placing them so as to be ranked among his visible people , and known by things obvious to sense to be of this people , from which this state results without any such receiving as may be denominated duly or rightfully done or usurped . yet i grant they had a right in it , that is , they had it by gods donation , without any usurpation by them or any other ; and they had right to the benefit consequent , as to the honour and esteem and dignity absolutely , and to other benefits , if there were any other annexed to it , whether absolutely or conditionally . yet to the proofs of mr. b. i say , . that it seems to me not true , that the nature of the benefit of infants visible churchmembership consisteth in a right to further benefits . . that if it were true , yet i see not how it proves this consequence , if any had the benefit , then they had ri●ht to or in that benefit . a man may have a benefit without right , though the nature , or as i would speak , the condition of it be such as to draw with it a right to further benefits ; as a man may have a lordship without right , which gives him a right to further benefits . . that mr. b. jumbles together churchmembershi● , covenant interest , &c. whereas a person may have no interest in gods covenant , who is a visible churchmember ; and he ma● have interest in gods covenant , who is no visible churchmember . . his speech , god is just , and consenteth not that any have that which he hath not some right to or in , as the words seem to import , is not right . for . they intimate a● if visible church-membership were given out of distributive justice , which gives to every man his own . but this i conceive to be very erroneous . for as regeneration , so also visible churchmembership are of bounty by god as soveraign lord , nor of distributive justice by god as a judge . . that all that any man hath from god , he hath of debt , contrary to the apostle , rom. . . . that visible churchmembership is conceived as a thing offered , and to be duly and rightfully received , or to be attained by usurpation and abuse of gods ordinances or benefits . but this i understand not how it is according to mr. bs. doctrine . . he conceives visible churchmembership distinct from circumcision . what ordinance is there then which may be abused by receiving visible church-membership ? . the visible churchmembership of infants among the jews , doth not to me appear to be a thing tendered or offered by god upon condition of parents faith , and to be accepted or refused : but to be a state resu●ting from gods fact forementioned without such offer . . what is in the scriptures after expressed , shall be viewed in it's place . mr. b. adds ▪ i am next to prove the consequence , that [ this right was coferred by some grant , promise , or covenant of god. ] and this is as easie as to prove that the world was made by gods power and efficiency or will ; or to prove that god is the owner of all things , and no man can receive them but by his gift . . if there be no other way possible for right to be conveyed from god to us , but onely by his grant , promise , or covenamt , ( which we call donation , and is a moral civil action , ) then it is by this means that it is conveyed . but there is no other possible way of such conveyance : ergo. we have no right till god give us right . his will signified createth our right no man can have right to that which is wholly and absolutely anothers , but by his consent or will. this will is no way known ▪ but by some signs of it . these signs of such a will for conveyance of right to a benefit , are a civil moral action , called a donation or gift simply . if the sign be in writing , we commonly call it a deed of gift . if it be by word of mouth , conferring a present right , we call it a verbal grant or gift . if it confer onely a future right ▪ we call it a promise , and sometimes a covenant ; and sometimes the word covenant signifieth both , that act which gives a present right , and promiseth the continuance of it . right being a moral or civil thing , can be no way conveyed but by a moral or civil action . a gift that was never given , is a contradiction . so that this part of our controversie is as easie as whether two and two be four . answ. visible churchmembership is not a right , but a state of being ; as to be healthy , strong , rich , &c. which are not given by a civil moral action , but by providence of god acting physically , as the soveraign disposer of all . it is certain , that it is by gods will , as all things are ; but this will is no otherways signified then by the event , as conversion and many other gifts of god are . my meaning is , though these things are by vertue of gods will , and are signified in the general by some declaration of gods purpose and order by which he acts , which may b● called his covenant ; yet in the particulars , i mean for the persons , time , &c. there is not any covenant that assures these persons conversion or visible churchmembership , or that estates infants in either of those benefits as their right by vertue of gods promise as the sole efficient of it , upon that condition mr. b. asserts , that is , the parents faith , as i have proved before , sect. . i deny therefore that there is such a promise of god as conferred infants visible churchmembership upon ●he parents faith . and to mr. bs. argument i say , that though it be easie to prove that visible churchmembership is by gods donation , or grant ; yet to argue therefore it must be by a promise , such as mr. b. asserts , follows not , it being no good argument which is drawn affirmatively from the genus to the species , it must be by gods gift or grant , ergo b● promise . yea , according to mr. b. here a promise confers onely a future right , and therefore it doth not make actually visible church-members without some further act , and therefore not the promise or covenant of god is the next adequate cause of it , but some other act of god , and consequently there is another poss●ble yea manifest way , without the promise of it upon condition of parents faith , which mr. b. asserts . but mr. b. saith . . god hath expresly called that act a covenant or promise by which he conveyeth this right : which we shall more fully manifest anon when we come to it . answ. these a●e but words , as will appear by that which followes . the d . proposition , saith mr. b. to be proved , is , that [ there was a law or precept of god ob●iging the parents to enter their children into covenant and churchmembership , by accepting of his offer , and re-engaging them to god. ] and this is as obvious and easie as the former . but first i shall in a word here also explain the terms . the word [ law ] is sometimes taken more largely , and unfitly , as comprehending the very immanent acts or the nature of god , considered without any sign to represent it to the creature . so many call gods nature or purposes the eternal law : which indeed is no law , nor can be fitly so called . . it is taken properly for [ an authoritative determination de debito constituendo vel confirmando . ] and so it comprehendeth all that may fitly be called a law . some define it , [ jussum ma●estatis obligan● aut ad obedientiam aut ad paenam . ] but this leaves out the praemiant part , and some others : so that of grotius doth , est regula actionum moralium obligans ad id quod rectum est . i acquiesce in the first , or rather in this , which is more full and exact ; [ a law is a sign of the rectors will constituting or confirming right or dueness . ] that it be a sign of the rectors will de debito constituendo vel confirmando , is the general nature of all laws . some quarrel at the word [ sign ] because it is logical and not political : as if politicians should not speak logically as well as other men ! there is a two-fold due ; . what is due from us to god ( or any rector ; ) and this is signified in the precept and prohibition , ( or in the precept de agendo & non agendo . ) . what shall be due to us ; and this is signified by promises , or the praemiant part of the law , and by laws for distribution and determination of proprieties . all benefits are given us by god in a double relation , both as rector and benefactor : or as benefactor regens ; or as rector benefaciens : though among men that stand not in such a subordination to one another as we do to god , they may be received from a meer benefactor without any regent interest therein . the first laws do ever constitute the debitum or right : afterward there may be renewed laws and precepts to urge men to obey the former , or to do the same thing : and the end of these is either fullier to acquaint the subject with the former , or to revive the memory of them , or to excite to the obedience of them : and these do not properly constitute duty , because it was constituted before ; but the nature and power of the act is the same with that which doth constitute it , and therefore doth confirm the constitution , and again oblige us to what we were obliged to before . for obligations to one and the same duty may be mul●iplied . . some take the word [ law ] in so restrained a sence as to exclude verbal or particular precepts , especially directed but to one ; or a few men ; and will onely call that a law which is witten , or at least a well known custome obliging a whole society in a stated way . these be the most eminent sort of laws : but to say that the rest are no laws , is vain and groundless , against the true general definition of a law , and justly rejected by the wisest politicians . that which we are now to enquire after , is a precept , or the commanding part of a law , which is [ a sign of gods will obliging us to duty , ] of which signs there are materially several sorts , as . by a voice , that 's evidently of god : . by writing : . by visible works or effects : . by secret impresses , as by inspiration , which is a law onely to him that hath them . answ. mr. b. undertook to explain the terms , and he onely , and that unnecessarily and tediously , explains one term , to wit [ law , ] which was not the term in my letter , to which his proposition was to be opposed , but the word [ precept ; ] whereas he should have explained what he meant by the parents entring their children into covenant and churchmembership , and what offer he meant they were to accept , and how , and how they were to engage them to god , and how this entring , accepting , re-engaging did confer the benefit of visible church-membership to their children , and what precept it is that is unrepealed distinct from the precept of circvmcision , which i presume he doth not hold unrepealed . all these were necessary to have been distinctly set down , that i might have known his meaning , and thereby have known whether his assertion opposeth my position , and whether he prove it or not . but that the reader may the better perceive where the point to be proved lies , i shall set down distinctly what i conceive mr. b. means , and then what i assert , and what mr. b. should prove in opposition to my assertion . . i conceive he imagines an offer of god to parents , which he calls a promise or covenant , that upon their taking him to be their god , he would be a god to their children , even their infants . . that parents are and were bound to accept of this offer for their children . . that by it they do enter them into covenant , that is , they do covenant for them that they shall be gods people , and consequently they partake of the covenant that god is their god. . that by vertue of this entring into covenant , accepting , and re-engaging them to god , they are visible churchmenbers . i assert . there is no such offer , promise , or covenant . . that though there are precepts for parents to pray for their children , to breed them up for god by example , teaching , &c. yet they are not bound to believe this ; that upon their own faith god will take their infant children to be his , and he will be a god to them , nor to accept of this pretended offer , sith there is no such promise or offer . . that though parents may enter into covenant for their children , that is , they may do it as those , deut. . . either by charge and adjuration , or by wishing a curse to them if they did not cleave to god , as nehem. . . josh. . . and this may have an obligation on them beyond the precept , and influence on them as a motive , as the oath to the gibeonites , josh. . . yet by this their entring into covenant for them , they do not make them partakers of the covenant or promise that god wil be their god. . that if there were such a promise , and such a duty of accepting the pretended offer , and re-engaging ; yet this neither did then , nor doth now make infants visible churchmembers . so that the point between us is , whether there be such a precept to parents besides circumcision , of entring into covenant , accepting an offer of god to be their god for their children according to a promise that he will be so , and re-engaging them to god , whereby they become actually visible churchmembers ? this mr. b. affirms , i deny . he speaks thus . having thus opened the terms [ law and precept , ] i prove the proposition thus . . if it was the duty of the israelites to accept gods offered mercy for their children , to engage and devote them to him in covenant , then there was a law or precept which made this their duty , and obliged them to it . but it was a duty : ergo , there was such a law or precept . for the antecedent , . if it were not a duty , then it was either a sin , or a neutral indifferent action : but it was not a sin , ( for . it was against no law , . it is not reprehended ; ) nor was it indifferent , for it was of a moral nature , and ergo either good or evil , yea sin or duty : for properly permittere is no act of law , ( though many say it is , ) but a suspension of an act : and so licitum is not moraliter bonum , but onely non malum ; and ergo is not properly within the verge of morality . . if there be a penalty ( and a most terrible penalty ) annexed for the non-performance , then it was a duty : but such a penalty was annexed ( as shall anon be particularly shewed ) even to be cut off from his people , to be put to death , &c. if it oblige ad panam , it did first oblige ad obedientiam : for no law obligeth ad paenam , but for disobedience , which presupposeth an obligation to obedience . . if it were not the israelites duty to enter their children into gods covenant and church , then it would have been none of their sin to have omitted or refused so to do : but it would have been their great and hainous sin to have omitted or refused it ; ergo. now to the consequence of the major . there is no duty but what is made by some law or precept as it 's proper efficient cause or foundation : ergo , if it be a duty , there was certainly some law or precept that made it such . among men we say , that a benefit obligeth to gratitude , though there were no law : but the meaning is , if there were no humane law , and that is because the law of god in nature requireth man to be just and thankfull . if there were no law of god natural or positive that did constitute it or oblige us to it , there could be no duty . . there is no duty but what is made such by gods signified will , ergo , no duty but what is made such by a law or precept . for a precept is the sign of gods will obliging to duty . . where there is no law there is no transgression , rom. . . ergo , where there is no law there is no duty ; for these are contraries : it is a duty not to transgress the law , and a transgression not to perform the duty which it requireth of us . there is no apparent ground of exception , but in case of covenants . whether a man may not oblige himself to a duty meerly by his consent ? i answer , . he may oblige himself to an act , which he must perform , or else prove unfaithfull and dishonest : but his own obligation makes it not strictly a duty : ergo , when god makes a covenant with man , he is as it were obliged in point of fidelity , but not of duty . . he that obligeth himself to an act by promise , doth occasion an obligation to duty from god , because god hath obliged men to keep their promises . . so far as a man may be said to be his own ruler , so far may he be said to oblige himself to duty , ( that is duty to himself , though the act be for the benefit of another : ) but then he may as fitly be said to make a law to himself , or command himself : so that still the duty ( such as it is ) hath an answerable command . so that i may well conclude , that there is a law , because there is a duty . for nothing but a law could cause that duty , nor make that omission of it a sin . where there is no law , sin is not imputed , rom. . . but the omission of entring infan●s into covenant with god before christs incarnation would have been a sin imputed ; ergo , there was a law commanding it . . if it was a duty to dedicate infants to god , or enter them into covenant with him , then either by gods will , or without it : certainly not without it . if by gods will , then either by his will revealed , or unrevealed . his unrevealed will cannot oblige ; for there wants promulgation , which is necessary to obligation : and no man can be bound to know gods unrevealed will , unless remotely , as it may be long of himself that it is not to him revealed . if it be gods revealed will that must thus oblige , then there was some sign by which it was revealed . and if there were a sign revealing gods will obliging us to duty , then there was a law , for this is the very nature of the preceptive part of a law , ( which is the principal part , ) so that you may as well say , that you are a reasonable creature , but not a man , as say that men were obliged to duty by gods revealed will , but yet not by a law or precept . . we shall anon produce the law or precept , and put it out of doubt that there was such a thing . in the mean time i must confess , i do not remember that ever i was put to dispute a point that carrieth more of it 's own evidence to shame the gain-sayer . and if you can gather disciples even among the godly , by perswading them that there were duties without precepts or laws , and benefits without donations , covenants , or promise confirming them , then despair of nothing for the time to come : you may perswade them that there is a son without a father , or any relation without it's foundation , or effect without it's cause , and never doubt but the same men will believe you , while you have the same interest in them , and use the same artifice in putting off your conceits . answ. this tedious unnecessary discourse i have set together , lest it should be said i omitted it because i could not answer it , though i might have well done it , and granted him his conclusion without any revocation of what i had written to him . for his conclusion is , that there was a law or precept to the israelites to accept of gods offered mercy for their children to engage and devote them to him in covenant , which i never denied , onely i denied that this was any other then circumcision , or that this conferred the benefit , that is , made them visible church-members , or that this mercy , as he calls it , was offered by a covenant to be a god to believers and their seed , or that parents did by their act enter the children into covenant , that is , gods covenant to be their god , or covenant to god , in proper speech whereby they covenanted to be his people . and for the first , it seems to me , . that mr. b. can produce no other law or precept binding the israelites to this duty besides that of circumcision , because he neither here nor elsewhere that i know of produceth any other . . that he means no other by two passages in this discourse ; . because he saith there was a most terrible penalty annexed to this law obliging israelites for non-performance ( as shall be anon particularly shewed ) even to be cut off from his people , to be put to death , &c. which he neither shews to be any other , nor do i think he could mean any other then that of circumcision : . he saith , the omission of entring infants into covenant with god before christs incarnation , would have been a sin imputed ; his limiting it to the time before christs incarnation , intimates he meant it of circumcision . . that he deals like as if he meant deceitfully , in putting off the naming the law or precept to another place , which it had been requisite for the answerer and reader to have found here , that it might be discerned what law he meant . and for the d . i say , if he could prove or produce that or any other law or precept ; yet if he did not prove that thereby the infants were made visible churchmembers , he proves not the contradictory to my writing . the other two points belong to the two foregoing and following questions . as for his confession , though his injurious insinuations of me are so frequent and so frivolous , that i could pass by them as the hissing of a goose , or the snarling of a curre ; yet because his speeches do much wrong the truth and way of god through my sides , i judge it fit to reply , . that i see not reason to be ashamed of my assertion , but mr. b. hath cause to be ashamed of his own heedlesness , and misrepresentation of my assertion , and roving from the point he should prove . . that i gather no disciples to my self ; but endeavour to reform the abuse of infant baptism , and to restore the right use of christian baptism , according to the plain appointment of christ in scripture , and practice of his apostles . . that he that will be perswaded by mr. b. that infants are disciples meant matth. . . and that in gen. . . & . . is a law or ordinance of god for infants visible churchmembership , will believe any thing that he saith . . that were it not for the opinion he hath obtained of godliness by his book of rest , the esteem he hath gained by his writings for the ministery , and the advantage they have by his book of baptism to maintain their practice and station , it were not likely so vain a book would be esteemed among schollers . . that were it not for the affrightments of mr. b. through his calumnies and slanders , as if ranters , quakers , and all sorts of errours and sects sprang from antipaedobaptism , godly tender conscienc'd persons durst not maintain as they do so gross a corruption as their baby sprinkling is , nor neglect so great and fundamental a duty as baptism is according to the scripture . but the lord will judge betweene us . i proceede . the th qu. saith mr. b. requireth me to lay down this assertion , that [ there is no law or precept of god which doth not oblige to duty ; and no actual promise or donation , which doth not confer the benefit . ] this i aver on occasion of your last letter , where in contradiction to the former , you confess [ the promises to the na●ural posterity of abraham , gen. . and the covenants made with israel at mount sinai , and deut. . and a precept of c●rcumcision , and precepts of god by moses , of calli●g the people , and requiring them to enter into covenant , exod. . deut. . ] yet you [ do not conceive that the infants of israel were made visible churchmemb●rs by the promises in the covenants , o● the precepts forenamed . ] if so , then either you imagine that among all those precepts and promises there was yet no promise or covenant that gave them the benefit of churchmembership , or precept concerning their entrance into that state ; or else you imagine that such promises were made , but did not actually confer the benefit , and such precepts were made , but did not actually oblige . your words are so ambiguous in this , that they signifie nothing of your mind to any that knows it not some other way . for when you say [ there is no such particular promise concerning in●an●s visible church-membership , or precept , &c. besides circumcision , as in my book of baptism i assert , ] who knows whether that exception of [ circumcision ] be a concession of such a precept or promise in the case of circumcision ? or if not , what sense it hath ? and what you imagine that precept or promise to be which i assert ? and before the sence of y●ur one syllable [ such ] is discerned by trying it by a whole volume , i doubt you will make what your list of it . however , if you should mean , that such precepts there are as have for their subject [ the avouching god to be their god , the entring into covenant circumcision ] of infants , but not their churchmembership ; then . i have proved the contrary to the negative before ; . and more shall do anon ; . and it 's a palpable contradiction to the precedent affirmative . but if you mean that churchmembership of infants as well as others is the subject or part of the subject of those promises or precepts and yet that infants were not made or confirmed thereby ; it is the contrary that i am asserting , and i have no further need to prove , then by shewing the contradiction of your opinion to it self for an actual covenant or promise that doth not give right to the benefit promised ( according to it●s tenour and terms , ) is like a cause that hath no effect , a father that did never generate , and it 's all one as to say , a gift or covenant which is no gift or covenant , seeing the name is denied , when the thing named and defined is granted . so a precept or law to enter infants solemnly into churchmembership , which yet obligeth none so to enter them , is as gross a contradiction as to say , the sun hath not heat or light , and yet is truly a sun. answ. i grant his assertion , that there is no precept of god which doth not oblige to duty , nor donation which doth not confer the benefit ; though sundry things which have the title of gods lawes oblige not to duty , and an actual promise doth not put the thing promised in present being as the next cause , but the thing promised is thereby onely made future , yea a promise that it shall be doth suppose it not to be , and that there is something else the next and immediate cause of its actual being . the imagined contradiction in my later to my former letter , is before cleared not to be so sect. . though i have said enough before in this and other fore going sections , yet to take away all colour of charging me with ambiguity , . i acknowledge that the covenant at mount sinai ▪ and the covenant deut. . did declare the people of the jews to be gods people , or his visible church , in that the covenant was mutual , and open between them and god. . that they were gods visible church not barely by gods promise to them to be their god , but by their promise to god : gods call of them made them his church , their promise to god with o●her acts made them visibly so . . the promises of god gen. . did not of themselves make the house of abraham gods visible church . . the call of god , and such acts as whereby he separated them from others to bee his ( which were many ) made the house of abraham gods church . the infants were members of that church , in that they were part of that peop●e . . such things as whereby they were visibly of that people , their birth , cohabitation , &c. did make them visible churchmembers . . circumcision was one sign not by its●lf but with other things , whereby the male infants and adult were known to be of gods visible church . . no promise of god , nor duty of parents did make the infants actually visible churchmembers , as the next cause in act either formal or efficient . if mr. b. or any reader will heed these passages , with what goes before , hee may easily discern my minde , and acquit me from self-contradiction , if not i think it in vain for me to use more words . i pass on to that which follows . sect . lvi . that the people , and thereby the infants of the hebrews , were made visible churchmembers by a transeunt fact , is made good against mr : bs. exceptions . i come next ( saith mr. b. ) to the th . qu. whether indeed there be any transeunt fact , which without the causation of any promise or precept , did make the israelites infants churchmembers . this you affirm ( if you would be understood ; ) whether this your ground of infants churchmembership or mine be righter , i hope will be no hard matter for another man ( of common capacity ) to discern . by a [ transeunt fact ] thus set as contradistinct to a law , precept , or promise , either you mean the act of legislation and promise making , or some other merely physical act . if the former , it is too ridiculous to be used in a serious business : for you should not put things in competition excluding the one , where they both must necessarily concur , the one standing in a subordination to the other . was there ever a law or covenant made in the world any other way ●hen by a transeunt fact ? sure all legislation is by some signification of the soveraigns will. and the making of that sign is a transeunt fact . if it be by voice is not that transient ? if by writing is not the act transeunt ? if by creation it self , the act is transeunt though the effect bee permament . and certainly if legislation or promising be your transeunt fact , you do very absurdly put it in opposition to a law ( or promise ) it being the making of such a law . and the legislation doth no way oblige the subject , but by the law so made : nor doth the making of a promise , grant or covenant , confer right to the benefit which is the subject of of it , any otherwise then as it is the making of that grant which shall so conferre it . as the making of a knife doth not cut , but the knife made : and so of other instruments . so that if the law oblige not , or the grant confer not , certainly the legislation or promise-making cannot do it . i cannot therefore imagine that this is your sense , without charging you with too great absurdity . as if you should say , it is not the will of the testator , i. e. his testament , that enti●leth the legatary to the legacy , but it is the rranseunt fact of the testator in making that will : or it is not the soveraigns commission that authorizeth a judge , souldier , &c. but it is the transeunt fact of writing or making that commission . it is not the sign that signifieth , but the transeunt fact of making that sign . were not this a contemptible arguing ? to charge you with this were to make you tantùm non ununreasonable . and yet i know not what to say to you , that is , how to understand you . for if you mean a mere physical transient fact , which is no such legislation or promise-making , then it is far more absurd then the former . for if it be not a signe of gods will obliging to duty , or conferring benefit , then can it not so oblige to duty , nor confer benefits . it is no other transeunt fact but legislation that can oblige a subject to duty , nor any other transeunt fact but promise , or other donation , that can convey right to a benefit , or oblige the promiser . a moral or civil effect must bee produced by a moral or civil action , and not by a mere physical action ; which is unfit to produce such an alien effect , and can go no higher then it●s own kinde . what sense therefore i should put on your words , without making them appear unreasonable , even much below the rates of ordinary rational peoples discourse , i cannot tell . for to say , it is not a law but legislation , is all one as to say , it is not the fundamentum , but the laying of that foundation that causeth the relation , or from which it doth result . and to say it is an alien physical act , which hath no such thing as right for us subject or terminus , is to confound physick and morals , and to speak the grossest absurdities ; as to say that the transient fact of eating , drinking , going , building , &c. do adopt such an one to be your heir . i must needs think therefore , till you have better cleared your self , that you have here quit your self as ill , and forsaken and delivered up your cause , as palpably as ever i knew man do , without an express confession that it is naught . when men must bee taught by this obtuse subtilty to prove that infants churchmembership needed no revocation , forsooth [ because their churchmembership was not caused by a law , precept , promise or covenant , but by a transeunt fact ] then which as you leave it , the world hath scarce heard a more incoherent dream . but i pray you remember in your reply that you being the affirmer of this , must prove it . which i shall expect , when you can prove that you can generate a man by spitting or blowing your nose , or by plowing and sowing can produce kings and emperours . answ. i make not the jews infants visible churchmembers by bare legislation or promise-making , but by the transeunt fact described in my letters , which was without promise or precept , that is promise of it on condition of the parents faith , or precept of accepting that offered mercy , entering into covenant , and re-ingaging them to god , which are the promise and precept mr. b , derives their visible church-membership from . infants were visible churchmembers among the jewes , in that they were visibly a part of that people , who were gods church . so that to visible churchmembership was requisite , . that god should make that people h●s church , this he did by the transeunt fact described . . that the infants should be visibly a part of that people , this he did by their bringing into the world , ranking them among his people , so as that they were discernable by their birth , nursing , circumcision , habitation , genealogy , and such other signes , to bee part of that church . their visible churchmembership imports a state of visibility in the relations , . of a part to the whole , . of a people that are gods , that is . separated from other people , . called and taken or brought to god. these things are done by various acts , which i conceive i did fitly call a transeunt fact . a physical and moral cause are thus described by scheibler , metaphys . lib. . c. . tit . . topic. c. . tit . . stierius part . gen metaph. c. . a physical or natural cause , is that which truly flows into the effect , and nextly reacheth it by its activity . a moral cause , is that which doth not flow into the effect so as to reach to it , yet so behaves himself , that the effect may be imputed to him to praise or dispraise , reward or punishment . such are causes applying the agent to the patient , counselling , commanding , perswading exhorting , instigating , meriting , permitting when they might and should binder , &c. visible churchmembership is not as mr. b. conceives it , formally a right to a benefit , or a benefit , though it may be so consecutively , or they may follow on it . but it is a complex term , noting a state with a dou●le relation and imports a natural effect or term of action , as well , if not more then a moral , and is from physical as well as moral causes ; and in infants visible churchmembership , i judge it altogether an effect of a physical cause , as not knowing any moral action of god or man that makes them such ; though to the visible churchmembership of the people or body of which they are a part acts physical and moral do concur : which i shall clear in answering mr. bs. exceptions to my last letter to him . as for his outcries of grossest absurdities , incoherent dreams , unreasonable even much below the rates of ordinary rational peoples discourse , contemptible arguing , obtuse subtility , contradictions , palpable forsaking and delivering up my cause , generating a man by spitting or blowing my nose , with the rest of his canine scoptical rhetorick , i pass by it as being of ill savour , hoping mr. b. will in time come to better consideration of his writings , and either shew me my errour , or discern his own . mr. b. goes on thus . in consideration of the th . qu. i shall consider the nature and effect of the transient fact which you here describe . and first of the reason of that name . you say that you call it [ transeunt ] [ because done in time and so not eternal , and past and so not in congruous sense repealeable as a law , ordinance , statute , decree , which determines such a thing shall be for the future . ] and do you think this the common sense of the word ? or a fit reason of your application of it to the thing in hand . answ. i do . . saith mr. b. i think your intellection and volition are immanent acts , and yet not eternal . answ. yet all gods immanent acts ( of whom i spake ) are eternal . we use , saith he , to contradistinguish transient acts from immanent , and that because they do transire in subjectum extraneum . answ. so do i. but it seems you take them here as distinct from permanent . answ. yea and immanent too . but use your sence as long as we understand it . answ. with your good leave then i may use this term , if you understand it , if not i must alter it . . saith mr. b. if it be onely [ past ] actions which you call [ transeunt ] it seems your long fact which was so many hundred years in doing , was no transeunt fact till the end of all those years ▪ and so did not ( by your own doctrine ) make any churchmembers till the end of those years . answ. it doth but seem so : the truth is , in this long fact each particular act was a transeunt fact in each year , and in each age and space of time in which those acts were done , churchmembers were made by one or more of those and other acts used by god to that end , and yet the transeunt fact not so fully accomplished , but that there was an addition till that people came to thei● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or full stature , in which respect i comprehended all those many acts which i set down under the name of a transeunt fact , which i hope when he understands it , mr. b. will give me leave to do . . saith he ▪ but sir the question is not , whether it were a transeunt fact that laid the foundation by legislation or promise making ; but whether the effect were trasient , or the act as it is in patien●e : whether the law were transeunt which was made by a transeunt fact ? and whether the moral action of that law were permanent or transient ? it being most certainly such a moral act that must produce a title , or constitute a duty . gods writing the ten commandements in stone was a fact soon past , but the law was not soon past , nor the moral act of that law , viz. obligation . there are verbal laws , that have no real permanent sign : and yet the law may be permanent , and the obligation permanent , because the sign may have a permanency in esse cognito , and so the signifying vertue may remain by the help of memory , though the word did vanish in the speaking . answ. the question between us is , whether the infants of the jews were made visible churchmembers by a promise of god to be the god of believers and their seed , and a precept obliging the parents to accept of this mercy offered for their children , and to enter them into covenant ; or by the transeunt fact i describe . the questions which mr. b. here sets down , so far as i understand them , are no questions between us : and therefore this exception is but roving from the matter in hand . . saith he , when you come to point out this transient fact individually , you say [ it is gods taking the whole people of the jews for his people , ] which you term [ fact ] as conceiving it most comprehensive of the many particular acts in many generations whereby he did accomplish it . ] . i did not well understand before that [ a fact ] did so vastly differ from on [ act , ] as to contain the acts ( rather then the facts ) of many generations . answ. though i think in use there is some difference , that act is applied to the particular actions , fact to them as they amount to some thing brought to pass by them ; yet if there were no such difference , me thinks if mr. b. had not been minded to multiply exceptions unnecessarily , he might have allowed me to use a term ( which in disputes is frequent ) for my purpose especially sith he understands it . . saith he , this is a long fact according to your measure , even from abrahams call out of ur : but how long it seems you are not well agreed with your self . for in the first part of your letter you enumerate to the other acts that compose this fact [ the bringing them into the bond of the covenant at mount sinai , giving them laws , setling their priesthood , tabernacle , army , government inheritance : ] but before you end , you change yo●r mind , and say [ the churchmembership of the israelites began as i conceive with abrahams call , and was compleated when they were brought out of aegypt to god. exod. . . ] but sure that was long before the setling their inheritance . your fact according to your last account was about yeares in doing ; but according to your first opinion , it was about years long . answ. in my first and last account there is no change of my mind . i did conceive , that the taking the whole people of the jews for his people was compleated when they were brought out of aegypt to god , exod. . . as christ said it is finished , john . . and yet more was to be done , because the chief or hardest thing then was done which would draw after it all the rest . as after the great battel at arbella , alexanders conquest might be said to be finished , though more were after to be done . i never meant to limit the fact to the time of their bringing out of aegypt to god , but included all other additionals , though it were the main , and which brought along with it the rest . . saith mr. b. if it were one individual fact of about years long that made infants churchmembers , then they could not be churchmembers till that fact was past : for the effect is not before the cause , or causality of the efficient ; the relation cannot be before the fundamentum be laid : and it seems this long fact was the laying of the fundamentum : but the consequent is certainly false ; for infants were churchmembers before the end or compleating of your long fact : for they were churchmembers ( you 'l grant ) when ishmael and isaac were circumcised . ergo , it was not this long fact that made them churchmembers . answ. i said i termed gods taking the people of the jews a fact , as a collective term , comprehensive of the many particular acts in many generations whereby he did accomplish it . by which it may easily be perceived , that i did not make the fact an individual action , for i called it many acts , nor did mean that the churchmembership was not till all the acts were past , but that it was accomplished by them , that is , they were brought to full stature and growth as a formed people and commonwealth : as we say a child is a man accomplished when he is brought to the years of a man , and yet he is a man before . and i answer to mr. bs. argument taken from my words ; that when i drew out the fact so long , and said , by it the infants were visible churchmembers as a part of the congregation of israel , my meaning was , that respectively as the congregation of israel were made a church by that fact , so were the infants members . by the call out of ur , whereby god separated abraham and his house from other people , the congregation of israel began to be gods church , and if there had been infants they had been visible churchmembers ; but they were not a compleated church till they were brought out of aegypt to god , exod. . . nor infants members of a church compleated till then when they were become a great nation , and were formed into a theocratical commonwealth . and being thus rightly understood ( as my words imported ) i said nothing which infers the absurdity of putting the effect afore the case , nor the putting off infants visible churchmembership till the end of years . . saith he , if you mean that it was not the whole , but some part of this long fact that actually made infants churchmembers , then you would have assigned that part , when that was the thing desired , and which you pretended exactly to perform ; or at least you would not have told us it comprehended all these acts . answ. i did exactly tell mr. b. in my letter , it began with the call of abraham out of ur ; and when i told him that the fact comprehended all those acts , yet i added for explication , [ whereby it was accomplished or compleated . ] . saith he , and if each particular act did make infants church-members , or lay a sufficient ground of it , then it seems that it was done before the institution of circumcision . for gods calling abraham out of ur was before it . so that the children born in his house must be churchmembers upon that ; and a sufficient ground laid for his own to have been such , if he had then had a natural issue : and it seems then that ishmael was born a churchmember many years before circumcision . answ. i grant all this , . saith he , if this be your meaning , i pray you be so just and impartial as to accept of the proof which i shall give you of infants churchmembership before abrahams days , if i make it appear to be as strong as this call of abraham from ur. answ. i shall . . saith he , if you should mean that some one of these comprehended acts should of it self make any infants churchmembers , then it must be any one ; for you no more assign it to one of them then to another , ( onely say [ chiefly the bringing them from aegypt : ] but surely some of these acts particularly ●annot do it , as the leading to padan aram , the removal to canaan , to aegypt , placing , preserving ther● , setling their army , &c. did any one of these make infants to become churchmembers ? answ. no : but i did assign it to one of them more then to another , to wit , the beginning to abrams call , the accomplishing to the bringing of them out of aegypt to god , exod. . . saith he , nay , suppose you mean that all these acts must concur to make them members , ( and so that they were no members till many hundred years after the institution of circumcision , ) yet could not your doctrine hold good : for some of these acts are of an alien nature , and no more apt to cause infant churchmembership , then a bull to generate a bird ▪ what aptitude hath the setling of an army to be any part of the causation of infants church-membership ? none , i think ; at least if it be such an army as ours : for surely the setling of ours caused no such thing , as you well know . what aptitude hath the leading to padan aram , or removal to aegypt , to make infants churchmembers ? nay , how strange is it , that the removing of churchmembers , and such as had been infant churchmembers , as ishmael , keturahs children , esau , must cause infant churchmembership ? sure it was no cause of their own . keturahs children were churchmembers in infancy : i enquire of you by what act they were made such ? you say [ by gods fact of taking the whole people of the jews for his people ] whereof the act of removing keturahs children was a part . very good . it seems then that removing from the congregation of israel a people of the jews , is a taking of the removed to be of that people : or else it is not onely the taking that people , but also the removal from that people that maketh churchmembers , even the removed as well as the taken , both which are alike absurd . answ. . i mean not as mr. b. supposeth i might . . the setling of the army had remotely causation of infants churchmembership , for by it the israelites were a well formed congregation , church , or commonwealth , and by which the infants were a part , which is their church-membership . . i know that our army hath done so much for the setling of the church , as that the antiprelatists congregations had been either none , or much oppressed , i● they had not broken the force of the opposite party . nor dare i be so unthankfull to god , or them , as not to acknowledge the great mercy and benefit we at this day enjoy thereby , however mr. b. fret at our liberty , and jibe at the instruments . . the leading to padan aram , removal to aegypt , were acts of providence wherby jacobs house were encreased and preserved , which i conceive were some of those acts whereby he made them a people to himself . . ishmaels , keturahs children's , esau's removal , were some acts whereby the congregation of israel became gods severed , or a peculiar people . . keturahs children were visible churchmembers while they were part of abrahams house , called after the people of the jews , by gods taking of the people of the jews , and consequently them as a part ; and yet the removal of them was after one act whereby the people of the jews were made to god a severed people from them ; and consequently their infants churchmembers . distinguish the times and the different state of things and intentions of god in his providences , and these seeming incoherences will be found consistent . . saith he , and i pray you tell me yet a little better , how an act can make a man a churchmember that was one long before that was done ? you cannot here say , that it was before in esse morali , and had a moral causation . how then could your chiefest act ▪ the bringing out of aegypt , make those infants churchmembers that were born in aegypt , and were churchmembers before ? or how could it be any part of the cause ? did the bringing out of aegypt concur to make moses a churchmember when he was in the basket on the waters ? and when you answer this , you may do well to go a little f●r●her , and tell me , how such an act concurreth to make him an infant church-member that was dead an hunded or two hundred years before that act was done . for example , how did the setling of the israelites army , or inheritance , or the covenant on mount sinai , make ishmael , or esau , or isaac , or jacob churchmembers ? answ. the infants of israel were churchmembers in that they were a part of the congregation or people af israel , which was a fluent body , and was taken to be gods church by a succession of acts , whereof some were causes which began , some continued , some compleated , and the several acts made the churchmembers of that age , yet all by vertue of the first call of abraham , whereby god declared his intention to make his house a nation , and his church , first more obscurely , then more clearly . the bringing out of aegypt tended to make the israelites a severed people , and consequently all that were churchmembers were by that act such ; the setling of the army , inheritance , covenant at mount sinai , tended to make them a well formed people , and to the accomplishment of the taking the jews to be gods people , and consequently the infan●s to be churchmembers which came after them . which if so understood , there is nothing in my conceit which infers the making that a cause which is after the effect . . saith mr. b. i desire you also to tell me by the next , what be the nerves and ligaments that tie all these acts of years at least together , so as to make them one fact ? and whether i may not as groundedly make a fact sufficient for this purpose of the acts of an hundred or two hundred years onely ? and whether you may not as well make all the acts from abrahams call till christ to be one fact , and assign it to this office ? answ. . these acts are knit together into one fact by the unity of end designed and work accomplished , as the many acts of several ages did make one fact , of which the poet speaks , tantae molis erat romanam condere gentem , to raise the roman empire . . you might , if god had so contrived it , and brought the thing to pass in that time which he did in a longer . . i may make all the acts from abrahams call till christs towards the hebrews , one fact of making the jews his people , and assign it to this office rightly , onely using the word fact or making , as it comprehends not onely the beginning , and increasing , and compleating of that people ; but also the continuation , recovery from captivity , and preservation of that people . . saith mr. b. you say that you call this fact [ transeunt ] because it's [ past , ] ( and so till it 's [ past ] it seems isaac and jacob that were dead before ; are no churchmembers ; ) i would then fain know whether it be this same transeunt fact , or some other , that makes infants churchmembers five hundred years after it is past ? if it be this same , then how comes a meer transeunt fact to work effectually so many hundred years after it is past ? unless it made a law or covenant which doth the deed ? if it be a new transeunt fact that must make infants churchmembers after the compleating of this ( the setling their inheritances ; ) then i pray you let me know , whether it be one fact exercised on the whole nation in gross , or must it be a fact upon every infant member individually ? if on the nation , remember to tell us what it was ; and do not onely tell us the cause of the membership of former infants . and seeing it must be such as the membership of every infant till christs time at least must be caused by , i pray you remember to make your work s●uare and full , and be sure to assign us no other kind of fact , then what you will prove to have been so frequently repeated in every age , and so fully extensive to every infant among the jews , as that it have no gaps but may make all members that were so in each age . and remember , that it is no law , precept , promise , or covenant that you must assign for the cause ; for that 's it you are engaged against : but a constant succession of transeunt facts extending to each individual member . o what work have you made your self ? and what a sort of new political doctrine shall we have from you , when these things are accomplished according to the frame you have begun ? such as i believe the sun never saw , nor the wisest lawyer in england ever read before ? which makes me the less marvel that so many of your opinion are so m●ch against the lawyers ; for i dare say they will be but few of them for you , if these be your grounds , or at least not for these your grounds . answ. i call the whole transeunt fact past , because it consists of many transeunt acts , which are past being done : but i do not limit the being of churchmembers to the entire transeunt fact , as if none were churchmembers till each act was past which i set down ; but the accomplishing or compleating the congregation of israel to either all or the chief of the later acts . that which made isaac and jacob churchmembers , was the transeunt fact or acts of gods providence in their age , whereby they became to be part of abrahams house , which god by his call of abram , setting up his worship in it , and other ways had made his church . the same transeunt fact in kind , though not individual , which made isaac and jacob churchmembers in their age , made infants visible churchmembers in the several ages till christs time ; to wit , the continuance of the jews to be gods people , in the continuing his ordinances , laws , worship , &c. among them : and each infant was made a visible churchmember by such transeunt fact in each age renewed and repeated , by which the infant was made and known to be a part of that people , which what it is hath been often before said , and shewed not to be by such covenant and precept as mr. b. asserts . all which was plainly expressed in my letter , ( and is such work as i need not be ashamed of , ) without any new political doctrine or law , as mr. b. imagines , it being cleared by the history of the bible , and other histories which set down this fact of god : and if mr. b. or any lawyer gainsay this , they gainsay the plain narration of the bible . his foolish exclamations i let pass , as shewing nothing but his own inconsiderateness and vanity . that many of my opinion are against the lawyers , is more then i know ; they know well that i honour their profession and study , though i do no whit flatter them in their injurious and covetous practises : nor do i doubt but conscionable and understanding lawyers will be for me upon my grounds , as soon as other men , if they peruse my writings with love to the truth ; and so would all godly learned divines also , if it were not for prejudice , and some other partial affection . but i must attend on mr. b. . saith he , but all this yet is but a light velitation : the principal thing that i would enquire into , is , what your great comprehensive fact is in the true nature of it , which you call [ gods taking the whole people of the jews to be his people . ] doth the word [ taking ] signifie a meer physical taking or fact ; or a moral ; such as among men we call , a civil action ? if it be a meer physical taking , then . it cannot produce a moral effect , such as that in question is . . and then it must have an answerable object , which must be individual existent persons . . and then you cannot call it one fact , but many thousand : even as many as there were persons taken in to the jews in above four hundred years . . and then what was the physical act which is called gods taking ? was it such a taking as the angel used to lot , that carried him out of sodome ; or as the apocryphal author mentions of habakkuk , that was taken by the hair of the head , and carried by the angel into another countrey , to bring daniel a mess of pottage ? if god must by a physical apprehension take hold of them that he makes churchmembers , we shall be at a loss for our proof of their churchmembership . but i cannot imagine that this is your sence . but what is it then ? is it a physical action though a moral causation of some physical effect ? that it cannot be : for it is a political or moral effect that we enquire a●●er . it necessarily remains therefore that this be a political-moral taking that you here speak of . and if so , then the transeunt fact you speak of must needs be a civil or political action . and what that can be , which is no law , promise , or covenant in this case , i pray you bestow some more diligence to inform us , and not put us off with the raw name of a transeunt fact opposed to these ▪ certainly , if it be a civil or legal action , the product or effect of it is jus or debitum , some due or right : and that is either . a dueness of somewhat from us , ( which is either somewhat to be done , or somewhat to be given ; ) . or a dueness of something to us , which is either of good or evil : if good , it is either by contract or donation ( whether by a testament praemiant law , or the like : ) if evil , it is either by some penal law , or voluntary agreement : now which of these is it that your transeunt fact produceth ? to be a member of the church , is to be a member of a society taking god in christ to be their god , and taken by him for his special people . the act which makes each member , is of the same nature with that which makes the society . the relation then essentially containe●h . a right to the great benefits of gods soveraignty over men , christs headship , and that favour , protection , provision , and other blessings , which are due from such a powerfull and gracious soveraign to such subjects , and from such a head to his members : as also a right to to my station in the body , and to the inseparable benefits thereof . . it containeth my debt of obedience to god in christ , acknowledged and promised actually or virtually , really or reputatively . now for the first , how can god be related to me as my god , or christ as my saviour , and i to him as one that have such right to him and his blessings , by any other way then his own free gift ? this gift must be some signification of his will : for his secret will is not a gift , but a purpose of giving . this way of giving therefore is by a civil or moral action , which is a signifying of the donors will ; and can be by no way , but either pure donation , contract , testament , or law . in our case it must needs partake of the nature all these . it is not from one in any equality , nor capable of any obliging compensation or retribution from us . being therefore from an absolute dis-engaged benefactor , it must needs be by pure donation , or it cannot be ours . yet as he is pleased as it were to oblige himself by promise , or by his word , and also to call us to a voluntary acceptance , and engagement to certain fidelity , gratitude and duty , and so is the stipulator , and we the promisers in the latter part of the action : it is therefore justly called a contract or covenant , though indeed the word [ covenant ] frequently signifieth gods own promise alone . as it proceedeth from the death of the testator ( in natural moral-reputative being , ) so it is called a testament . and as it is an act of a ruling benefactor ▪ giving this benefit to the governed , to promote the ends of government , and obliging to duty thereby , so it partaketh of the nature of a law . the commonest scripture name for this act , is gods covenant or promise , and sometimes his gift ; which all signifie the same thing here . it follows therefore , that either by gods [ taking israel to be his people ] you mean some civil political action , as a covenant , promise , or the like collation of the benefit , ( and then you assert the thing which you deny , ) or else you know not what you mean , nor can make another know it , without the discovery of the grossest absurdity . and as for the other thing which is contained in churchmembership , the professed duty of man to god , it is most certain . that gods law obligeth us to that duty : . and obligeth all according to their capacities to consent to the obligation , and so to re-engage themselves : . that this actual consent professed doth therefore double the obligation . and thus by a mutual contract , covenant or consent ( whereof our part is first required by a law , ) is the relation of churchmembership contracted . now to lay by and deny all this , and give us the general naked name of [ taking for gods people , ] is meerly delusory , seeing that [ taking ] means this which you exclude , or it means nothing that 's true and reasonable . and therefore tell us better what it means . answ. all before being but a velitation or light skirmish , i looked here for some great battel : but i find it nothing but a rallying together the forces scattered before , there being not one thing i know of in this passage , but what was set down before , and is answered . i have distinctly shewed how moral and physical acts concur to the visible churchmembership of the people , of which infants are a part , and natural to that visible churchmembership which the jews infants had , and what they were , both in my letter , and in this answer . what m. b. replies , is vain . . it is not true that the effect in question is a moral , it is at least in infants meerly a physical effect ; their churchmembership is not by any act which reacheth not to the effect . . the taking is of individual p●rsons existent . . by many particular acts , yet in a good sence before given , summed up into one transeunt fact . . the physical acts are none of those m. b. frivolously imagines , but such as are mentioned in the scripture , and declared in my letter . it is not true that a meer physical taking cannot produce a moral effect : for supposing the spirit should inspire faith immediately without any preaching , the eff●ct would be moral , though produced by a meer physical taking or act . . the transeunt fact i set down doth not exclude , but did expresly include in my letter both covenants single and mutual , and laws , and precepts ; yet ( as i have said before ) it doth exclude that promise of mr. bs. of gods being a god to believers and their seed , and a precept of believing or accepting this for their children , which confer the benefit of visible churchmembership . yea , it is fully proved before , that if there were such a promise and precept , yet these would not actually make infants visible church-members . . it is not true that the relation of visible churchmembership essentially containeth a right to the great benefit of gods soveraignty over men , christs headship , and that favour , protection , provision , and other blessings , which are due from such a powerful and gracious soveraign to such subjects , and from such a head to his members . for ( to omit the unfi●ness of the expression of [ right to the great benefits of gods soveraignty over men ] which contains these two fond conceits . . that great benefits are included in gods soveraignty over men , whereas the soveraignty of god includes not any benefit but his own greatness , he is soveraign over the reprobate men and angels as well as the elect , and yet they have no benefit , yea his soveraignty is shewed in their reprobation as well as the election of the other . . that visible churchmembers have a right to the great benefit of gods soveraignty over men , whereas what benefit soever it be yet right is not to us by visible church-membership ) it is most false that that relation either constitutivè or consecutivè , doth essentially contain that right . for neither doth the term formally import any right at all , but a manner of being or state with relation as i have before distinctly declared ; nor doth that right inseparably accrue to such visible churchmembers . there are and may be visible churchmembers , who have not that right ; and there are who have that right , and are not visible churchmembers . . nor is it true that the relation essentially includeth a right to the members station , and to the inseparable benefits thereof . for though the station in the body be included , yet not a right to it , yea the actual station is oft times without right , which i think is sufficiently proved by mr. b. himself in his dispute against mr. blake sect. . asserting a dogmatical faith entitling to baptism . . that though visible membership bee by gods gift , and this is to be by signification of gods will , yet it is not necessary it should be by any promise or declaration which may be termed moral or political , sith the event it self is a signification of gods will and of his gift . . that if churchmembership be contracted by a mutual consent and covenant as mr. b. sets down , . onely the elect can be visible churchmembers , for to them onely god hath covenanted to be their god , or christ their saviour . . infants are not visible churchmembers , for they neither covenant , nor by any intimation in scripture is it shewed or can bee , that the parents or others obedience to god in christ acknowledged or promised , is virtually or reputatively by any law of god taken for the infants covenant or consent . lastly , this law which mr. b. here sets down concerning the duty of the parents , is not that law or ordinance of infants visible churchmembership , which mr. b. asserts to be unrepealed for the law and ordinance of infants visible churchmembership is not a precept of what another shall do , but what they shall have , not of what in duty a person is bound to , but of what god doth give and grant . and therefore all this tedious discourse of mr. b. is but delusory , sith instead of a law and ordinance determining that infants shall be visible churchmembers , he assignes another thing a precept of a duty , and thinks if i prove not it repealed ▪ i prove not the law and ordinance of another thing repealed . mr b. adds . as for the texts you cite , deut. . . & levit. . , . king. . . isai. . . in deut. . is mentioned not the moral act of god by which he made them his people or took them for his own , and founded the relation : but the natural a●●ions whereby he rescued them from the egyptian bondage and took them to himself or for his use , service , and honour out of that land . but i think sure they were his people , and all their infants were churchmembers before that taking by vertue of a former covenant-taking . answ. the text expresseth that act of god whereby hee took the jews for his people , and consequently whereby he founded the relation of churchmembers , and if this act were a natural act , then it follows ( contrary to mr. bs. conceits ) that a natural act may be it by which god takes a people to him , which is the scripture phrase whereby is signified his making them his church . if they were his people before , and all their infants churchmembers , yet they might be made his people by repeated , continued , or new acts making or taking , noting a beginning or continuance or completing of the estate they had formerly . if they were by vertue of a former covenant-taking , yet i think mr. b. cannot shew before that time a mutual covenant-taking , such as he said before the relation of churchmembership is contracted by . he adds . as to levit. . god did perform a twofold work of separation for israel . . by his covenant and their entring covenant with him . . by local separation of their bodies from others . it was the first that made them his people , and churchmembers , and not the last : the last was onely a favourable dealing with them as his beloved . the same i say to the other two texts . sure you cannot think that corporal separation makes a church-member . what if an egyptian that had no part in the covenant had past out with the israelites , and got with them through the red sea , do you think he had been therefore a churchmember ? suppose god had made no promise or covenant with abraham or his seed , but onely taken them out of chaldea into canaan , and thence into egypt , and thence into the wilderness , and thence into canaan again : do you think this much had made them church-members ? then if the turks conquer greece , or the tartarians conquer china , they are become churchmembers , because this seems as great a temporal prosperity at least . and i think it●s past doubt , that lot was a church-member in the midst of sodom , and the israelites in egypt before they were brought out , as truly as after . answ. i grant that they were , though not so completed , when they had not liberty to sacrifice to god , nor to keep any feast , and perform other worship to god as when they were brought out , unto which the texts refer the severing of the israelites from other people that they should be gods , although i did not in my letter restrain it to that local separation ( which yet the scripture with me chiefly refers it to ) but also to the bringing them into the bond of the covenant at mount sinai , giving them laws , setling their priesthood , tabernacle , army , government , inheritance . if the turks or tartars had such a local separation as i describe , they had been churchmembers . the egyptians that came out of egypt with the israelites , were churchmembers with the israelites they becomming proselytes . if god had made no promise or covenant with abraham or his seed , but onely taken them out of chaldea into canaan , and withall made known his will concerning his grace in christ , given them lawes , and set up his worship among them , they had been churchmembers . according to mr. bs. own arguings , the promise or covenant with abraham and his seed made them not churchmembers , for they were churchmembers before . the covenant gen. . was not a mutual covenant , which is that by which according to mr. b. visible churchmembership is contracted . the texts that i allege , do sufficiently prove the people of israel were taken to be gods people by such a transeunt fact as i describe , and consequently the infants visible church-members , as part of that people , without the promise to believers and their seed to bee their god , on condition of the parents accepting the mercy offered , and re-engaging them to god , which mr. b makes the sole efficient of their holiness or visible churchmembership , as is shewed before . he proceeds . as to gen. . . acts . . nehem. . . which you also cite , as there is not one of them that gives the least intimation that infant-church-membership then began , so i shall farther enquire anon , whether they contain any covenant or promise . answ. they do each of them plainly shew the beginning of the taking of the hebrews for gods people , by severing them from idolaters , and forming them into a chruch , and consequently of the churchmembership which infants had in that people or nation . for the texts do all expresly tell how god severed abram from the chaldees , how he made his house his church , promising to encrease and to settle it , and neither moses , nor the levites , nor stephan , do go higher in the narration of gods calling of the hebrews to be his people and i think it safest to go no higher then the scripture . what mr. b. adds after , shall have answer in its place . he adds . so exod. . , . hath no word that gives the least intimation that god by that act of taking them out of egypt , did make israel a church , or the infants or any others , members of it : but onely that by fulfilling a former promise in the deliverance of a people formerly his own , he layeth further obligations to duty on them by redoubling his mercies . the same i say of levit. . . nehem. . . i will not believe yet , but that you believe your self , that the israelites and their infants were as truly churchmembers before , as after their deliverance out of egypt . and mee thinks the texts you cite might put it out of doubt . what if god say , hos. . . [ when israel was a childe i loved him , and called my son out of egypt . ] is it easie hence to prove , that calling him out of egypt did make him his son that was none before : or to prove that israel was gods son before he called him out of aegypt . if you should maintain the former , i might expect that you should say the like of christ himself , to whom the evangelist applieth this text , and so you may prove as fairly , that christ was none of gods son till he was called out of egypt , but was made his son by that call . certainly the text termeth him gods son that was called , as being so before that call . by this time i am well content that any waking man do compare your doctrine and mine , and try whether it be a transeunt fact , or a law and covenant , that made infants and all others churchmembers : and if they do not admire , that ever a learned man should harbour such a conceit as yours , and that ever a godly man should build such a weight on it , and go so far on such a ground , yea and that ever ordinary godly people should be so blinded with such palpable non sense or absurdities , then let them still follow you in the dark ; for i expect not that reason should recover them . answ. my conceits were and are still , that infants were onely visible churchmembers in the church of the hebrews or congregation of israel , and that they were such not apart by themselves , but as they were a part of that people which god took for his church , which made a peculiar commonwealth and chureh to god consisting of the same persons . this god did not by a promise to be god to the faithful and their seed as the sole efficient , and a precept of the parents to accept of this offered mercy , and to dedicate them , and re-engage them to god , as mr. b. conceives , but by a transeunt fact containing many acts of gods providence whereby they were severed from other people , and appropriate to god. the prime act of gods providence whereby god brought this to pass , was gods calling of abram out of u● , whereby he severed them from idolaters , and by degrees establ●shed his worship in abrahams house , upon which followed a long tract of providences , which i mentioned as tending to the same end : and this calling of abram i refer the beginning of that people and church to , and i think i follow therein the scriptures . the other chief act of providence was gods calling of israel out of egypt , wherein i comprehend all the acts mentioned by me in my letter which followed , by which i said it was completed , and to that end i alleged many ( as i conc●i●e ) express texts , not to prove that they then began to be gods people ( as mr. b. contrary to my plain words insinuates ) but to prove that then they were completed , that is , completely severed from other people ▪ and formed into a church or commonwealth , with lawes , distribution of offices , order , and other things requisite thereunto , which they had not before . and thus i interpret their bringing to god , exod. . . the bringing them up out of the land of egypt to bee their god levit. . . their redeeming to bee his people nehem. . . their calling out of egypt hos. . . that is , from a miserable state among idolatrous oppressors , to be a people of themselves in a complete state of liberty under gods rule , which i conceive described by ezech. ch . . under the similitude of a childe cast out , relieved and educated . if mr. b. can shew any non-sense , or absurdity herein , it is surely that which the plain scripture affords , or else i am in a dream ; and if mr. b. bee awake , i think hee may espie non-sense and absurdity manifold in his conceit of visible churchmembership as a right to a benefit , of such a covenant , and condition , and precept , which hee imagines to confer it . i am willing mr. bs. doctrine and mine bee compared , though i lay so little weight on this point , that i think if i bee mistaken , neither is mr. bs. cause gained , nor mine lost . i would have none follow me in the dark , nor would i have men befooled by mr. bs. misrepresentations of me , and others , much less by his frivolous rhetorick , in which hee discovers a great deal of prejudice , rashness , confidence , and intemperate zeal , with which i think him so drunken , that i doubt whether reason will recover him , till some providence of god bring him to see his folly ; which i think will much appear in that which followes , on which nevertheless i conceive hee builds the main or whole of his cause of infants visible churchmembership . sect . lvii . mr. bs. law of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed , is not proved from gen. . , , . or gen. . . i come now , saith mr. b. to the th . qu. that is to speak to the point which you propounded . you urge me to cite to you the particular texts that contain this law , ordinance , precept , or covenant . to which i answer thus . . there are two sorts of laws ; one which fir●● make a duty ; the other which suppose it so made , and do onely call for obedience ▪ and excite thereto , or prescribe somewhat as a means in order thereunto . if i could she● you no written law or promise as first constituting the duty , or granting the priviledg of churchmembership , it were no● the least disparagement to my cause , as long as i can shew you those following laws which presuppose this . you know the church of god did live about . years without any written law that we know of : where then was gods will manif●sted about such things as this , but in tradition and nature ? if moses then at the end of this . years did find this tradition and find all the infants of church-members in possession of this benefit , then what need he make a new law about it ? or why should god pr●●ise it as a new thing ? i confess if i should find by any new law or promise that it did begin but in moses days , i should think it some abatement of the strength of my cause ( though yet i think there would enough remain . ) . there are ( yet higher ) two sorts of laws : the one for the constitution of the commonwealth it self , the other for the administration or government of it when it is so constituted . the former are called by some , fundamental laws as laying the frame and form of the commonwealth , and the quality of the materials , &c. i think indeed , that as constitutive of the form of the commonwealth , these are scarce preperly called laws ; though as they look forward , obliging to duty , and prohibiting alteration , they may . but if they be not laws , they are somewhat higher , and lay the ground of all laws and obedience , and so are laws eminenter & vi●●ualiter , though not actually and formally : and in our case , as this constitution did subject us to god , making it our duty ever after to obey him ; so doth it oblige us to acknowledge that subjection . and the very constitution of the church is an act of high beneficence , and performed by the fundamental grant or covenant ▪ now if this covenant and constitution could not expresly be shewed in writing , it were no diminution of the authority of it , seeing among men fundamentals are seldome written , and when they are , it is onely as laws obliging the subject to maintain and adhere to the first constitution . as long therefore as we can prove that it is gods will that successively infants should be churchmembers , it no whit invalidates the cause if we could not shew the original constitution in writing . yet somewhat we shall attempt . . we have full proof of infants churchmembership by laws and covenants concerning it , ever since the time that there was a written word of god : and that is sufficient , if we could fetch it no higher . having premised this , i come nearer to the question . answ. had mr. b. meant fairly , and not either to prepossess the reader with prejudice against me , or weary him afore he should come to the point , he had begun with this question : in the entrance to which he tediously sets down some postulata , which do shew , that we are not to expect any plain scripture proof of a law or ordinance of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed , which he so cracks of as to intitle his book as if he would bring such . but i shall let pass his postulata , and attend to his proofs . the first institution , saith mr. b. of infants churchmembership de jure upon supposition of their existence , was in gods first constitution of the republick of the world , when he became mans governour , and determined of his subjects , and members of the commonwealth : which republick being sacred , and devoted to gods worship and service , was truly a church of which god was head . this was performed by the first law and covenant made either in or upon mans creation , that such a covenant or promise of felicity was made by god to innocent man , almost all divines agree : but because it is rather implied then expressed in moses brief history , some few cavillers do therefore contradict us . but . the threatning of death for sin , seems to imply a promise of life if he sinned not . . and the new testament affordeth us divers passages that yet plainlier prove it , which to you i need not recite . but whether this promise of life were natural ( as the threatning of death was , ) or onely positive and more arbitrary , divines are not agreed among themselves , those that say it was free and positive , give this reason , that god could not naturally be obliged to bless or felicitate the most innocent or perfect creature , nor any creature merit of god. those that think it natural as the threatning was , say , it 's true that god could not be properly be obliged , because he is under no law , no more is he obliged to punish ▪ but onely man obliged to suffer if he inflict it : and it 's true that man cannot strictly merit of god. but yet , say they , as man may have a natural aptitude for such felicity , so god hath a natural propensity to do good according to the capacity of the subject , and his works do oblige him ( improperly ) in point of fidelity and immutability as well as his word . so that their reasons are these following . . because god is as naturally prone to do good to the good , as to do evil to the evil , that is , to reward as to punishment , as his name proclaimed to moses , exod. . shews . . because god making man capable of a higher felicity , and principling him with inclinations thereto , and giving him desires , love , and other affections for that blessed end , even the everlasting fruition of god , therefore they say , god did in this frame of his nature give him ground to expect such a felicity ; if he sinned not . for else all these inclinations and affections should have been in vain : but god made not so noble a creature with vain inclinations and affections to act fallaciously and falsly . also gods works would not be harmonical : so that as gods promise is but a sign of his will obliging him improperly in point of fidelity and immutability , so , say they , the nature of man was a sign of gods will so far engaging him : so that as he could not let sin go unpunished without some breach in the harmony of his sapiential frame of administration , no more could he deny to perfect man the object of those desires which he formed in him . so that although he might have made man such a creature as should not necessary be punished for evil , or rewarded for good , that is , he might have made him not a man ; yet having so made him , it is necessary that he be governed as a man in regard of felicity as well as penalty . . our philosophers and divines do commonly prove the immortality of the soul from it's natural inclinations to god and eternal felicity . and if the immortality may be so proved from it●s nature , then also it 's felicity in case of righteousness . i interpose not my self as a judge in this controversie of divines , but i have mentioned it to the end which i shall now express . . it is most certain , whether the reward or promise be natural or positive , that such a state of felicity man was either in or in the way to , or in part and the way to more . and i●'s most certain , that man was made holy , devoted to god , and fit for his service , and that in this estate according to the law of his creation , he was to increase and multiply : it 's most certain therefore , that accor - to the first law of nature , infants should have been churchmembers . . but if their opinion hold , that make the reward grounded on the law of nature , and not on a meer positive law , ( and you see the reasons are not contemptible , ) then the argument would be yet more advantagious . . but how ever it be of the title to glory or eternity , it 's most certain , that according to the very law of nature infants were to have been churchmembers if man had stood . the first text therefore that i cite for infants churchmembership , as expressing its original de jure , is gen. . , , . [ so god created man in his own image — and god blessed them , and god said unto them , be fruitfull , and multiply , and replenish the earth . ] here you see by the law of n●ture infants were to have been born in gods image and in innocency , and so churchmembers . and note , that the first blessing that god pronounceth on mankind , is , that they propagate children in their owne estate , to bee as the parents were , even in gods image . answ. . if this prove their churchmembership , it proves not their visible churchmembership , of which onely is the question . . if it prove a law or ordinance , yet it proves not such a law or ordinance as is in question , which is not a law or ordinance de jure , but de eventu , that so it shall be , or they shall be so accounted . for such a law or ordinance of their visible churchmembership onely can infer their admission as visible churchmembers , they being to be actually visible churchmembers afore admission , according to mr. bs. own dictates , and therefore not de jure onely ▪ such . . if it did prove such a law or ordinance , yet it proves it not to be by such a promise and precept as mr. b ▪ asserts . . if it did , yet it onely proves it of the church by nature , which hath a great difference from the church by grace , this being onely by election and calling , not by birth . . if this law or ordinance be unrepealed , then it is in force , and according to the law of nature invariable that man be born without sin . for man is born according to the law of procreation , gen. . . and if this were the law of nature , that the first blessing that god pronounceth on mankind , is , that they propagate children in their own estate to be as the parents were , even in gods image ; then still the law of nature continues , and so there is no original sin ; or it is repealed , and so it is not such a law as mr. b. asserts . . the words [ god created , blessed , ] do note onely a transeunt fact ; and therefore , what ever divines imagine about gods covenant with man , this passage onely tells what god did , but mentions no such law or ordinance by promise or precept as mr. b. conceives , and therefore it is manifestly impertinent to his purpose . let 's view the next and main text. the next institution , saith mr. b. of infants churchmembership , was at the first proclamation of grace to faln man , or in the first promise of redemption to sinners , in gen. . . [ and i will put enmity between thee and the woman , and between thy seed and her seed : it shall bruise thy head , and thou shalt bruise his heel . ] i will prove that this fundamental covenant of grace or promise doth declare it to be the will of god that infants should be churchmembers : and to this end , let us first consider what the words expresly contain , and then what light may be fetcht from other texts to illustrate them . it being a known rule , that an expositor must not turn universals into singulars or particulars , nor restrain and limit the scripture generals , where the word it self or the nature of the subject doth not limit them . i may well conclude that these things following are comprehended in this fundamental promise . . that the devil having played the enemy to mankind , and brought them into this sin and misery , god would not leave them remediless , nor to that total voluntary subjection to him as he ●●ght have done : but in grace 〈◊〉 undeserved mercy would engage them in a war against him , in which they that con●uered should bruise his head . . that in this war the lord jesus christ , the principal seed , is promised to be our general , whose perfect nature should contain , and his perfect life express a perfect enmity against satan , and who should make a perfect co●quest over him . . the lord jesus is promised to do this work as the wom●ns seed , and so as conceived of her , and born by her , and so as an infant first , before he comes to ripeness of age . so that here an infant of the woman is promised to be the general of this army , and head of the church . this is most evident : by which god doth sanctifie the humane birth , and the infant state , and assure us that he doth not exclude now that age from the redeemed church , which he admitted into the church by the laws of creation . for the first promise is of an infant born of the woman to be the head of the church , and growing up to maturity , to do the works of a head. had god excluded the infant state from the visible church , he would not have made the head first an infant . where note , . that christ is the great exemplar of his church ; and in things which he was capable o● , he did that first in his own body , which he would after do in theirs . . that the head is a member , even the principal member , one of the two parts which constitute the whole . as the pars imp●rans and pars subdita do constitute each commonwealth . so that it an infant must be a member eminently so called , then infants are not excluded from membership , but are hereby clearly warranted to be members of a lower nature . if an infant may be soveraign , no doubt he may be a subject . if an infant may be the chief prophet of the church , then no doubt but infants may be disciples . if you still harp on the old str●ng , and say , they are no disciples that learn not ; you may as well say , he is no prophet that teacheth not . and if you will openly deny christ in infancy to have been the prophet of the church , i will undertake to prove the falshood and vileness of that opinion , as soon as i know you own it . the promise then of an infant head , doth declare gods mind that he will have infants members , because the head is the principal member . answ. the thing to be proved by mr. b. is that there is a law or ordinance of god unrepealed , that not onely in the church jewish , but in the christian properly so called , the infants of believers , by vertue of gods promise to be the god of the faithfull and their seed , and a precept to parents to accept of the mercy offered and re-engage them to god , should be , and be taken to be visible members . but that he takes upon him to prove , is , that it is the will of god that infants should be churchmembers , that he doth not exclude now that age from the redeemed church , that he excluded not the infant state from the visible church , that it is his mind that he will have infant members ; all which we might grant , and yet mr. bs. law and ordinance not thereby proved . for infants may be churchmembers of the redeemed church , and yet not of the visible church ; and the infant state may be not excluded from the visible church , and yet there may be no law or ordinance for the inclusion of them ; yea , there may be a law or ordinance for inclusion of them , and yet none for including them in the visible church christian. nor is his proof of any validity : for the conse●uence holds not , christ was by gods promise head of the church in infancy , therefore infants were by gods will to be churchmembers , or the infant state is not excluded from the visible church . it must rest upon some such positions as these ▪ in what age god promised christ to bee head of the church , in that age his will was that persons should be visible churchmembers ; the ordering of christs age is an exemplar to the church , or rather rule for the being and accounting of visible churchmembers . which are manifestly false , . because there is no such thing declared in scripture , and therefore it is to be taken as a meer fancy . . because if these positions were true , . then an infant in the mothers womb should be a visible churchmember , because then christ was head of the church ▪ and as mr ▪ b. saith , the lord jesus is promised to do this work as the womans seed , and so as conceived of her : . then an old man sho●ld not be a member of the visible church , because christ in the days of his flesh was not an old man ; which are both absurd . and for the antecedent of mr. bs. enthymeme , though i deny not that christ in infancy was head of the church , nor that he was the prophet of his church in infancy , understanding it of his being the prophet habitually and by designation , nor that he in some respect , to wit , of rule and protection , the head of the visible church , even of that part which is not elect : yet . i deny that in respect of that union which makes any members of his body in the scripture acception , which is by his spirit , he is head of that part of the visible church which is not elect ; nor can he be said in this respect and after the scripture speech to be head of the visible church as visible , but onely in respect of that part which is invisible , to wit , the true believers ▪ or elect p●rsons , who alone are univocally members of christ the head , as the doctrine of protestant writers a voweth . dr. rainold , thes . . § . . mali nulla corporis christi pars sunt . dr. field , of the church , book . ch . the wicked are neither parts nor members of the mystical body of christ. bellarmin himself de eccl milit . c. . makes them members not living , nor true according to the essence of members , but dead , and as ill humours in the body , and in respect of some outward use christ makes of them . . nor do i well know how to make a construction of this speech of mr. b. [ that the lord jesus is promised , gen . . to do this work of bruising the serpents head , or conquering the devil as the womans seed , and so as conceived of her , and born by her , and so as an infant first before he comes to ripeness of age ; ] according to which it may be true . for though i grant the man christ jesus who did this work to have been an infant first , yet i do not think it true that he did it as the womans seed , according to humane nature onely , but also according to his divine , heb . . nor what he did was done in infancy , but at ripe age : for he bruised the serpents head and conquered the devil by his death , heb. . which was not in infancy , but at ripe age . . nor do i understand how it is true that [ by christs birth and infancy god doth sanctifie the humane birth and the infant state : ] for though i grant children born and infants are sanctified by god through christ , who was born and an infant ; yet that the humane birth and the infant state should be sanctified thereby , seems not true ▪ for then humane birth and infancy should be holy in any infants o● persons born , and so the birth of a bastard should be holy , and his infancy holy , which i need not shew how absurd it is . . nor do i conceive any truth , but gross falshood in that speech , [ had god excluded the infant state from the visible church , he would not have made the head first an infant : ] for this doth suppose , that either this was the onely end or chief end without which god had not made christ an infant , and consequently this was more in gods eye then the saving of sinners for which christ came into the world , or the fulfilling of his promise , that a child should be born , a son should be given to us ; and would infer , that they which hold infants not visible churchmembers , must deny christ to have been an infant . . nor do i know that to be true , [ that in things which christ was capable of , he did that first in his own body , which he would after do in the bodies of his church : ] for he would and did innumerable things in the bodies of his church , as to marry , beget children , &c. which he did not in his own body first , though he was capable of them . . i deny that christ as man was in infancy the prophet of his church visibly , and in actu exercito . let mr. b. when he will assault it , there will appear in his contradiction vileness and manifold falshood , none in this opinion . and for his inference , if an infant may be the chief prophet of the church then no doubt but infants may be disciples , i grant both , and yet deny that christ was visibly , audibly , in actu exercito in his infancy in his humane nature the prophet of his church , or that any infants are actually disciples visibly , till they hear the gospel and profess the faith ; nor am i ashamed to aver , that he is no prophet that prophesieth not , that they are no disciples that learn not . but mr. b. proceeds . . saith he , as the war is here proclaimed , and the general or chief commander constituted , so next here is a natural enmity put into the whole seed of the woman , or humane race , against the whole seed of the serpent that then was , or the diabolical nature . this is plain both in the text , and in the experience of the fulfilling of it as in the instrumental serpent , it is the whole serpentine nature , that hath an enmity to the humane nature , and the whole humane nature to the serpentine nature ; they being venemous to us , and wee abhorring them as venemous , and as such as our lives are in danger of : so is it the whole humane nature that is at enmity to the diabolical nature ▪ vide muscul. calvin . luther . in locum . all men have naturally as great an abhorrence of the devil , as of a serpent , they apprehend him to be their enemy , they abhor the very name and remembrance of him : if they do but dream of him it terrifieth them , they are afraid of seeing him in any apparition . if they know any temptation to be from him , so far they dislike it and abhor it , though for the thing presented they may cherish it . this is not special saving grace , but this is a great advantage to the work of special grace , and to our more effectual resisting of temptations , and entertaining the help t●at is offered us against them , when our very natures have an enmity to the diabolical nature : we now look on him as having the power of death as gods executioner and our destroyer and malicious adversary . and if there be any witch or other wicked person that hath contracted such familiarity & amity with him , as that this natural enmity is thereby overcome , that proveth not that it was not naturally there , but that they by greater wickedness are grown so far unnatural . . as this enmity is established in the nature of mankinde against the diabolical nature , so is there a further enmity legally proclaimed against the diabolical pravity , malignity , and works . vide pareum in locum . god will put an enmity by his laws ( both natural and positive ) making it the duty of mankinde to take satan for their enemy ; to resist , and use him as an enemy , and fight against him and abhor his works , and so to list themselves under the general that fighteth against him , to take his colours , and to be of his army : and this being spoken of the common world of mankinde , and not onely of the elect ( for it is not they onely that are obliged to this hostility and warfare ) belongeth to each one according to their capacities : and therefore infants being at the parents dis●ose , it is they that are to list them in this army against the enemy of mankinde , of which more anon . . a third and hig●er enmity is yet here comprehended , and that is an habitual or dispositive enmity against the diabolical malignity pravity and works , which may bee called [ natural ] as it is the bent or bias of our new nature . this god giveth onely to his chosen , and not to all . and it containeth not onely their consent to list themselves in his army against satan , but specially and properly a hatred to him as the prince of unrighteousness , and a cordial resolution to fight against him and his wor●s universally , to the death , with a complacency in god and his service and souldiers . h●re take a short prospect of the mysterious blessed trinity . as god is one in three , and in his entity hath unity , verity , and goodness , and in his blessed nature hath posse , scire , velle , power , wisdome , and love , so as from these is he related both to his created and redeemed rational creatures , as absolute proprietary , as soveraign ruler , and as most gracious benefactour : as lord of our nature he hath put the foresaid enmity between the humane nature and the diabolical : as soveraign ruler , he hath by legislation imposed on us a further enmity as our duty , that we should be listed in his army , profess open hostility against satan , and fight against him to the death . as benefactor , he giveth special grace to do this , to his chosen . as he is lord of all , so the first is done on the natures of all : as he is rector of all , but not by the same laws ( as to positives ) so he obligeth all to this hostility , but not all as he doth those that hear the gospel . as he is benefactor he doth with his own as he list , and makes a difference . if any say that it is the same enmity that is here said to bee put in all , and therefore the same persons in which it is put . i answer . there 's no proof of either . a general command or promise to a community , may signifie a difference of duties or gifts to that community , though that difference be not expressed : for the nature of the subject may prove it . and . experience of the fulfilling of this promise or covenant , proves the difference before mentioned . and it 's well known , . that moses is so concise in the history of these matters . . and that the mystery of grace was to bee opened by degrees , and so but darkly at the first , that it is no wonder if we find the whole sum of the gospel here coucht-up in so narrow a room , and if each particular be not largely laid open before our eyes . . that wee may certainly know that this promise speaks not onely of the enmity that christ himself should have to satan , and doth not engage a general without an army , god doth here expresly mention the woman her self , saying [ i will put enmity between thee and the woman ▪ ] so that as shee stood in a threefold respect ; she is here her self possessed with this threefold enmity . . as she is the root of humane nature , from whence all mankinde must spring , she is possest with the natural enmity to the diabolical nature , and this to bee naturally convayed or propagated ▪ . as she was the root of the great republick of the world , or that rational society which god as rector would sapientially govern , and her self with her husband ( who no doubt was also included in the promise ) were the whole then existent race of mankinde , so did she receive a legal enmity of obligation , which she was traditionally to deliver down to all her posterity , being her self hereby obliged to list her self and all her infant progeny in the redeemers army , against the proclaimed enemy , and to teach her posterity to do the like : for thus obligatory precepts must be brought down . . as she was one of the chosen favourites of god , she received the habitual enmity of sanctification : and this is not in her power to propagate , though sh●e may use some means that are appointed thereto , and whether a promise of any such thing be made to her seed on the use of such means , i will not now stand to discuss . . it is not all that are possessed with the nat●ra● enmity against the divel himself that are the church of christ : for this is but a common preparative which is in all : nor is it all that are obliged to the further enmity against the works of satan : but all that on that obligation are duely listed in christs army against satan ( by the obliged person ) are visible members : and all that are by sanctification at a hearty enmity ( habitual or actual ) with the kingdome of satan , are members of the church called mystical or invisible . this i put as granted . . those that violate this fundamental obligation , and to their natural pravity shall add a fighting against christ and his kingdome for satan and his kingdome , are become themselves the seed of the serpent . and though they had the natural enmity with the rest of mankind in general against satan , yet have they therewithal the habitual enmity against christ. this much i suppose as out of controversie . but whether also the first original corrupted nature it selfe ( before any sin against recovering grace ) did contain an habitual enmity against the kingdome of the redeemer ? or whether the sins of later parents may propaga●e this as an addi●ional corruption in our nature , i will not now stand to discuss . onely as to our present business , it ▪ s certain that the general natural enmity to satan , may consist with an habitual friendship ▪ to his ways and cause . and though as men they may have the first common advantage of nature , and as subjects de jure may be under the common obligation , yea , and as listed in christs army may have man of its priviledges ; yet for the enmity of disposition to christ , they may be under a greater curse . . as it is certain , that it is not onely christ himself that is here made the object of this promise , and is here called [ the seed of the woman , ] ( as is before proved , and may be more , and is commonly granted ; ) so it is to be noted , that those others in whom this enmity are put , are called here [ the seed of the woman , ] and not the seed of christ ( though the chief of them are his seed . ) and so though the promise is made to none but the the womans seed , and no exception put in against infants , or any age of all her seed : till you can prove that infants are none of her seed , we must take this fundamental promise to extend to infants , and that very plainly , without using any violence with the text. answ. this tedious discourse of mr. b. is indeed serpenti●e with winding in and out , wrigling and wresting the text ; one while it is a promise , another while a precept ; sometimes meant of one sort of enmity , sometimes of another ; sometimes the woman under one consideration , sometimes under another ; sometimes the seed of the woman comprehend ▪ all the natural seed , sometime onely one kind : with so many ambiguous speeches , and unproved dictates , and inconsequent inferences , that i know not what better to term it then the way of a serpent on a rock , which the wise man said was too wonderfull for him , and one of the things he knew not , prov. . , . and sure when i yeeld to acknowledge this discourse as a convincing proof of the law and ordinance of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed , which mr. b. asserts , i shall deliver my self as a pupil to him , take him for an infallible oracle , and profess blind obedience . but let me see what i can make of this ridd●e . the sum of it , so far as i can collect , is this : here is an enmity proclaimed legally , against the devils pravity , malignity , and works ; h●reby all the seed natural of the woman are obliged to list themselves in christs army , or the woman as a believer is to list all her infant progeny in the redeemers army ; infants being part of her seed , and no exception put in against infants , or any age of all her seed , this fundamental promise extends to them , and all duly listed are visible churchmembers : ergo , here is the fundamental law or ordinance for infants visible churchmembership by promise and precept unrepealed . to discern how silly and insipid these arguings are ( if i may use ●r . bs. own phrase ) let us grant him here is a promise and precept implied , and inquire what listing is here enjoyned , of whom , by whom , and how far this makes the listed visible churchmembers . the listing is not here exprest , but in his book of baptism , p. . he saith , they are first made disciples , and then solemnly admitted , e●tred , or listed by baptism . p. as every one that must be admitted solemnly into the army , must be admitted by listing , as the solemn engaging s●gne ; so every one that hath right to be solemly admitted into the visible church , must ordinarily bee admitted by baptism , christs listing engaging signe . the persons to be listed , are according to mr. b. mankinde , the woman and her seed , even infants , no exception being put in against infants , or any age of her seed . the persons that are to list are each man , for he saith , it is the duty of mankinde to list themselves , infants being at the parents dispose it is they that are to list them in christs army , and this listing ( which he counts duely done ) makes infants visible churchmembers . concerning which , i grant that god doth proclaim here an enmity against the diabolical pravi●y , malignity and works , and that it is the duty of mankinde to fight against satan , to joyn with christ : for this is no more but that god forbids sin , and it 's our duty to resist ●t , and to believe and follow christ , and here is a fundamen●al promise , that they who do so shall bruise the serpents head , or prevail against satan . nor do i deny that it is the duty of parents , yea of all men to do what lies in them to engage persons , even i●fants to this war , provided they do it by wayes allowed and appointed , as by their prayers , vowes to god , or the like . but it is utterly false , . that there is any precept of listing by baptism here , for baptism is a mere positive rite of the new testament , not enjoyned here . . that it is the duty of all mankinde to list themselves ▪ for then it is their duty to baptise themselves . . that it is the duty of the woman to list her self and all her seed , for then she had been bound to baptise her self , and the children of unbelievers as well as believers , cains seed as well as abels , and if it were supposed that she had lived to this day , she had been bound to list all the infants at least of the professed infidels at this day ; for if it were a precept unrepealed , it must have bound her still . . that such a listing as mr. bs. words import , is either duly done , or that the listed in that manner are all visible churchmembers . . that here is any fundamental promise made to persons so listed . . that as listed in christs army in the manner mr. b conceives , infants have the priviledge of christs soldiers . none of these things denied by me , have a word of proof in all this p●olix discourse , nor do i imagine any proof for them can be from this text , and therefore conceive his discourse without proof , and like the dream of a sick man , or the dotage of a phantastick . he adds . . some learned men do use contemptible arguments to prove further , that the sanctifying enmity is here promised ▪ to the seed of the woman as her seed ( i mean those that go the way of dr. ward , mr. bedford , &c. ) that is , that as the two former sorts of enmity are put into all the seed of the woman ( as is explained ) so the spiritual holy enmity promised to her seed as she is a believer . . and some learned men do accordingly conclude , that the impiety of parents may do much to hinder their children from that blessing more then by original sin they were hindered , and therefore their faith may further them . of which though much may be said , i shall say no more , because i will not stand on things so much questioned . answ. i might then well have omitted this as of no validity , but to shew the multiplicity of paedobaptists errours . he g●es on thus . i come next to prove from other parts of scripture , that the fundamental promise of grace is thus to ●e interpreted as including infants . . if the same covenant of grace when it is more fully and clearly opened , do expresly comprehend infants as to be churchmembers , then is this fundamental promise so to be understood ( or then doth this also comprehend them . ) but the antecedent is certain , therefore so is the consequent . the antecedent i prove from the covenant of grace made to abraham the father of the faithful , which comprehended infants for churchmembers : the covenant made with abraham comprehending infants , was the same with this in gen. . but in some things clearlier opened . which is proved thus : both these were the covenant of grace and free justification by faith in the redeemer , therefore they were the same . for there is but one such . if abraham had some special promises additional to the main covenant , that makes not the covenant of free justification by faith to be divers . that this in gen. . is the promise or covenant of grace and free justification is not denied , that i know of . that the promise to abraham was the same , is evident from rom. . , , , , . . it is there expresly manifest , that the covenant whereof circumcision was to abraham the seal , was the covenant of free justification by faith ; circumcision it self being a seal of the righteousness of faith which abraham had , yet being uncircumcised , that he might be the father of believers , &c. . yea the promise that he should be heir of the world was not made to abraham or to his seed through the law , bu● through the righteousness of faith . now it 's certain that this covenant sealed by circumcision and made to abraham and his seed ▪ did comprehend infants ▪ the consequence of the m●jor then i● evident , that the same promise expressed more concisely , is to bee expounded by the same expressed more fully : and it 's acknowledged that the gospel light and grace was to be manifest by certain degrees . answ. that the fundamental promise of grace , gen. . . did include infants , was never denied by me , and therefore mr. b. doth but waste paper , and abuse me and his readers by going about to prove it . this i deny , that it includes all infants , or all infants of believers , and that any infant is made a visible churchmember by that promise as the next cause , or the sole efficient , which is mr. bs. term : neither of these is proved by him . i grant that the covenant to abraham was the covenant of evangelical grace , though mixt , as i have often shewed , and that it did include infants , and that they were churchmembers , to wit , of the invisible church of the elect , i mean so many as the covenant of evangelical grace was made to . i grant also that abrahams infants in his house were visible churchmembers , but not by vertue of the covenant barely as evangelical ▪ but by vertue of the transeunt fact before asserted by me ; and if in any respect by vertue of the covenant ▪ it was by it as containing houshold or civil promises , rather th●n evangelical . so that although i deny that from rom. . , , , , . it is proved that circumcision was a seal of the covenant , gen . and that the promises , gen. . . , , . were additional to the main covenant , and not as well the main covenant as v. yet i grant mr. bs. conclusions which he here infers , that the promises , gen. . . & . . did comprehend infants , that there is but one covenant of free justification by faith in both places , that the one may explain the other that infants were from the beginning churchmembers , that is , members of the invisible church of the ●lect ▪ but this i deny , that this is true of all , or perha●s onely of the infants of believers , or that because they are of the invisible therefore they are members of the visible church , there being more required to make visible church-members , then election , the covenant of grace , and parents faith . but mr. b. adds . ● . that the first fundamental promise is thus to be interpreted , i further prove by gods constant administration in the performance of it . concerning which i do make this challenge to you ( with modesty and submission , ) to prove if you can , that there was ever one churchmember that had infants born to him while he was in that estate , from the beginning of the world to this day , whose infants also were not churchmembers ? except onely the anabaptists , who refuse or deny the mercy , and so refuse to dedicate their infants in baptism unto christ. and whether their infants be churchmembers , i will not determine affirmatively or negatively at this time . i do again urge you to it , that you may not forget it ; to prove to me , that ever there was one infant of a churchmember in the world , since the creation to this day , that was not a churchmember , ( except the anabaptists that refuse the mercy or deny it . ) answ. mr. b. undertakes to prove gods constant administration , but instead of proving sends me a challenge , and ho●ly urgeth me to answer it ; which course indeed is ridiculous to the intelligent , yet subdolous , as taking much with shallow heads who know not the laws of dispute , as if he got the better of me if i did not answer it . but let such know , that it is mr. bs. part now to prove , mine onely to answer . . that if i could not answer , either through def●ct of reading , memory , histories in such matters , or such like cause ; yet this is no proof of mr. bs. assertion . . that i have no reason to answer mr. bs. questions and challenges , but his arguments : . because i find a meer captious spirit in him , seeking advantage to himself from my words ( which he very seldome doth rightly represent to the reader ) when he wants proof of his assertions ; as appears most evidently in this his answer to my letter , in which he hath gathered almost half his answer ( besides the business propounded ) from my writing to him . . that the understandings of men , even of scholiers and learned men are so superficial , or so partial , that without ever examining , yea or reading my writings , upon mr. bs. exclamations , and vile suggestions of me and mine answers , they do most unrighteously , and like men that seek not the truth , conclude on his side , scorn and speak evil of me and the cause i assert ( which is indeed the cause of christ ) of which i have much experience . . nevertheless i answer his challenge categorically thus ▪ . no infant born of a churchmember was a visible churchmember in the christian church , or any other besides that of the nation of the hebrews , as i have proved before : and if we must needs take up a fashion of disputing by challenges , i challenge mr. b. to shew me one infant who was a visible churchmember out of the nation of the hebrews . ● . i conceive from acts. . . tim. . . that timothy was born of a churchmember , yet no churchmember visible in infancy . anabaptists refuse not the mercy of visible churchmembership , if god had offered it to their infants ; nor would they refuse to dedicate their infants in baptism , if god had commanded it : but they dare not challenge what god hath not granted , nor profane the ordinance of christ , by their altering it into that which he hath not appointed . mr. b. goes on thus . sect . lviii . infants visible churchmembership is not proved by the law of nature before i proceed to any more texts of scripture , i will a little enquire into the light or law of nature it self , and see what that ●aith to the point in hand . and first we shall consider of the duty of dedicating infants to god in christ , and next of gods acceptance of them , and entertaining them into that estate . and the first is most evidently contained in the law of nature it self ( at least upon supposition that there be any hopes of gods entertaining them ; ) which i prove thus . . the law of nature bindeth us to give to every one his own due : but infants are gods own due ; ergo , the law of nature bindeth parents to give them up to god. by [ giving ] here i mean not an alienation of propriety , to make that to be gods that was not so before ; but an acknowledgement of his right , with a free res●gnation and dedication of the infant to god , as his own ; for his use and service , when he is capable there●f . if you say , infants being not capable of doing service , should not be devoted to it till they can do it ; i answer , they are capable at present of a legal obligation to future duty , and also of the relation which followeth that obligation , together with the honour of a churchmember ( as the child of a noble man is of his honours and title to his inheritance ) and many other mercies of the covenant . and though christ according to his humanity was not capable of doing the works of a mediatour or head of the church in his infancy , yet for all that he must be head of the church then , and not ( according to this arguing ) stay till he were capable of doing those works . and so is it with his members . answ. it is a bold attempt to undertake to prove a law or ordinance of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed from the law of nature , when churches are onely instituted , not by any law of nature , and consequently there can be no direction in the law of nature who shall be visible churchmembers , who not . nor could both those things mr. b. considers be proved , to wit , the duty of dedicating infants to god in christ , and gods acceptance of them , and entertaining of them into that estate , i. e. of dedicated persons , prove them visible churchmembers : there 's more required thereto , to wit , something discernable by sense , by which they may be said to be part of gods people . yet i shall examine his proofs the conclusion may be understood of giving up , devoting , dedicating to god by prayer or vow ; or else by an outward sign , such as circumcision or baptism . this latter is not of the law of nature , being meer instituted worship ; the former may be granted , without any hurt to my cause . nevertheless i shall say something to the argument : which hath at least four terms , and so is faulty in the form ; and for the matter of it , the major is not true without limitation . for the law of nature doth not bind every man to give to every one his own due , except it be that due which is due from the giver , or it belongs to him to give . a private man is bound to pay his own debt , not to pay every other mans debt to him to whom it is due . now infants may be said to be gods due , either in respect of their persons , or their service . infants in infancy can do no service , nor doth god require any service of them , and therefore there is none due , and therefore no parents do or are bound by any act of theirs for their infants service to give god his due of their infants service . and for their persons , they are gods due in that he may of right dispose of them as he wil , in life and death , health or sickness ; and in this respect parents have no way of giving god his due , but by acknowledging his soveraignty , and submitting to his will. dedication to god for the future i●●o giving of god his due from infants ; it is neither the giving of god the due of their persons , or their service : they are bound themselves when they come to understanding to do it by themselves ; and if they do it not , the parents dedication cannot do it . i object not , that infants should not be devoted to to god till they can do service ; but that what ever it be , it is not the giving god his own due from infants , nor doth make them visible churchmakers . mr. b. adds . . the law of nature bindeth all parents to do their best to secure gods right , and their childrens good , and to prevent their sin and misery : but to engage them betimes to god by such a dedication , doth tend to secure gods right , and their childrens good , and to prevent their sin and misery : for they are under a double obligation , which they may be minded of betimes , and which may hold them the more strongly to their duty , and disadvantage the tempter that would draw them off from god. answ. to dedicate them by prayer , and thanksgiving , and vows to god , may tend to these end● : but to do it by baptism not required of god , secures not gods right , but abuseth his name ; nor doth it tend to the childrens good , or prevent their sin and misery . for neither is there promise of god that the parents dedicating the child by baptism shall have these effects , nor do these effects follow ex opere operato , nor is there any obligation real put by infant-baptism on the person , though there may be a putative obligation thereby : but really infant-baptism is a disadvantage , . in that it is the occasion whereby they take themselves to be christians afore they know what christianity is , by which means they are kept in vain presumption of their safe condition ; and this constant experience , and the acknowledgement of observing men doth witness . . they are kept back thereby from the true baptism of christ , which hath had , and would have a strong tie on mens consciences , if it were solemnly and in a right manner performed as it should be . surely a mans own engagement by himself , in all probability must have a stronger operation then an engagement by another for him , notwithstanding the fond conceits of mr. simon ford , and mr. john goodwin , of edification by infant baptism . he is a very rare bird that makes any fruitfull use of infant baptism , which neither hath institution from god , nor promise of blessing , and was never known by the infant , nor perhaps any person living can tell him there was any such thing . nor is there in this respect the same reason of it and circumcision , for circumcision makes such an impression on the body as keeps the memory of it , but by baptism there is no print on the body by which it and the obligation by it may be remembred . . saith he , the law of nature bindeth parents in love to their children to enter them into the most honourable and profitable society , if they have but leave so to do : but here parents have leave to enter them into the church , which i● the most honourable and profitable society ▪ ergo. that they have leave , is proved , . god never forbad any man in the world to do this sincerely , ( the wicked and unbelievers cannot do it sincerely ▪ ) and a not forbidding is to be interpreted as leave in case of such partic●pation of benefits : as all laws of men in doubtfull cases are to be interpreted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the most favourable sence . so hath christ taught us to interpret his own : when they speak of duty to god , they m●st be interpreted in the strictest sence : when they speak of benefits to man , they must be interpreted in the most favourable sence that they will hear . answ. entering into the church invisible is gods onely wo●k : entering into the church visible christian is by bapti●m , plain scripture proof , &c. pag. . ●e have neither precept nor example in scripture , since christ ordained baptism , of any other way of admitting visible members , but onely by baptism . mr. bs. minor then here is this , that parents have leave to enter ( which is all one with admission ) their children into the visible church by baptism , that is , to baptize them . but this is false . for god hath forbidden parents to bring their infants to baptism , in that he hath not appointed baptism for th●m ( as is proved at large in the d . part of this review ) much more to baptize them in their own persons , according to mr. bs. hypotheses , plain scrip proof , &c. pag. ● . except they be ministers . a not forbidding is not to be interpreted as leave in this case : but a not commanding is a plain forbidding . mr. collings , provoc . prov . ch . . no thing is lawfull in the worship of god , but what we have precept or president for ; which who so denies , opens a door to all idolatry , and superstition , and will worship in the world . if the law of nature bind parents to enter their children into the church , then it is a law that speaks of duty to god , not of benefit to man ; for such laws contain grants of something from god , not of what man is to do : now if it be a law of duty , it must according to mr. bs. own rule be interpreted in the strictest sence , which is the right sence ; they are bound to it as god appoints , and no otherwise . so mr. b. against mr. bl. pag. . i take gods precept to be the ground of baptism , as it is officium , a duty , both as to the baptizer ; and the baptized . mr. ball reply ab●ut nine positions , p. . the sacraments are of god , and we must learn of god for what end and use they were ordained . but by the institution of , baptism recorded in scripture , we have learned it belongeth to the faithfull , to disciples , to them that are called . mr. b. mistakes when he conceives of baptism as a benefit to which a man hath right by promise or covenant grant : for though a benefit do follow to them that rightly do it , yet it self is onely a duty ; and such a one as is onely by institution , not by the law of nature , nor belongs to pa●ents for children , but to each person for himself . but mr. b. goes on . . it is the more evident , that a not forbidding in such cases is to be taken for leave , because god hath put the principle of sell preservation , and desiring our own welfare , and the welfare of our children so deeply in humane nature , that he can no more lay it by then he can cease to be a reasonable creature . and therefore he may lawfully actuate or exercise this natural necessary principle of seeking his own or childrens real happiness , where-ever god doth not restrain or prohibit him . we need no positive command to seek our own or childrens happiness , but what is in the law of nature it self , and to use this where god forbiddeth not , if good be then to be found , cannot be unlawfull . answ. . infant baptism tends not to the preservation , good , welfare , real happiness of them ; but to their hurt . . it requires a positive command , sith it is not of the law of nature . . it is forbidden , in that it is not commanded . . there can be expected no blessing of god on it , sith he hath promised none to it . . saith he , it is evident from what is said before ( and elsewhere ) that it is more then a silent leave of infants churchmembership that god hath vouchsafed us . for in the forementioned fundamental promise , explained more fully in after times , god signified his will that so it should be . it cannot be denied , but there is some hope at least given to them in the first promise , and that in the general promise to the seed of the woman they are not excluded , there be no excluding term . upon so much encouragement and h●pe then it is the duty of parents by the law of nature to enter their infants into the covenant , and into that society that partake of these hopes , and to list them into the army of christ. answ. the point to be proved was , that parents have leave to enter their children into the church ; but a leave of infa●ts churchmembership vouchsafed of god ( if there be good sense in the expression ) is another thing . infants churchmembership is the infants state , not the parents act , and leave of it intimates a willingness in the infant to be a churchmember , to which god vouchsafes leave . but whether there be sense or not in the expression , it is not true that in the forementioned fundamental promise , explained more fully in after times , god signified his will that infants should be visible churchmembers ; nor is it true , that upon hope given in the first promise that they are not excluded , is it the duty of parents ( without a positive command ) by the law of nature to enter their infants into the covenant , and into that society that partake of those hopes , and to list them ( by baptism ) into the army of christ. hopes of what may be , is not a sufficient reason of baptizing a person . nor by these hopes is any more duty put on the parent , then an other , who hath the same hopes and may do it , as viz. a midwife : yea , by this argument midwives should be bound to baptize not only believe●s infants , but also all infants , if it be so much for their good , welfare , preservation , real happiness , and the law of nature ties them as well as parents to do what lies in them to do them good upon such hopes and encouragement ; and sith they are in their power as well as parents , yea before them , and they may list them into christs army , enter them into covenant and the church , they are bound to do it . yea , considering that mr. b. of baptism part . ch . holds , that by christs commission , mat. . . disciples should immediately without delay be baptized as soon as they are disciples , and believers infants are disciples as soon as they are born , and none can do it so soon as midwives , they ought to do it , according to mr. bs. hypotheses , immediately upon their birth . which will go very far in justifying the papists about their hasty baptism by midwives . yet again saith mr. b. . it is the duty of parents by the law of nature , to accept of any allowed or offered benefit for their children . but the relation of a member of christs church or army , is an allowed or offered benefit to them , ergo , &c. for the major , these principles in the law of nature do contain it . . that the infant is not sui juris , but is at his parents dispose in all things that are for his good . that the parents have power to oblige their children to any future duty or suffering , that is certainly to their own good : and so may enter them into covenants accordingly : and so far the will of the father is as it were the will of the childe . . that it is unnaturally sinful for a parent to refuse to do such a thing , when it is to the great benefit of his own childe . as if a prince would offer honours , and lordships , and immunities to him and his heirs : if he will not accept this for his heirs , but onely for himself it is unnatural . yea , if he will not oblige his heirs to some small and reasonable conditions for the enjoying such benefits . for the minor , that this relation is an allowed or offered benefit to infants is manifested already , and more shall be . answ. i meant of visible members in the christian church properly so called , this last speech is denied . he goes on thus . and this leads me up to the second point , which i propounded to consider of ; whether by the light or law of nature we can prove that infants should have the benefit of being church-members , supposing it first known by supernatural revelation , that parents are of that society , and how general the promise is , and how gracious god is . and . it is certain to us by nature that infants are capable of this benefit , if god deny it not , but will give it them as well as the aged . . it is certain that they are actually members of all the commonwealths in the world ( perfectè sed imperfecta membra ) being secured from violence by the lawes , and capable of honors and right to inheritances , and of being real subjects under obligations to future duties , if they survive . and this shews that they are also capable of being churchmembers , and that nature revealeth to us , that the infants case much followeth the case of the parents , especially in benefits . . nature hath actually taught most people on earth , so far as i can learn , to repute their infants in the same religious society with themselves , as well as in the same civil society . . under the covenant of works ( commonly so called ) or the perfect rigorous law that god made with man in his pure nature , the infants should have been in the church , and a people holy to god , if the parents had so continued themselves . and consider . that holiness and righteousness were then the same things as now , and that in the establishing of the way of propagation , god was no more obliged to order it so , that the children of righteous parents should have been born with all the perfections of their parents and enjoyed the same priviledges , then he was obliged in making the covenant of grace to grant that infants should be of the same society with their parents , and have the immun●ties of that society . . we have no reason when the designe of redemption is the magnifying of love and grace , to think that love and grace are so much les● under the gospel to the members of christ , then under the law to the members or seed of adam , as that then all the seed should have partaked with the same blessings with the righteous parents , and now they shall all be turned out of the society , whereof the parents were members . . god gives us himself the reasons of his gracious dealing with the children of the just from his gracious nature , proclaiming even pardoning mercy to flow thence , exod. . and in the d . com. . god doth yet shew us that in many great and weighty respects he dealeth well or ill with children for their parents sakes : as many tex●s of scripture shew ( and i have lately proved at large in one of our private disputes , that the sins of nearer parents are imputed as part of our original or natur●l guilt . ) so much of that . answ. . all these considerations , if they were yeelded to be true , would as well prove that by the light of nature infants should be invisible churchmembers as visible ( which would contradict the scripture , rom . , , , , , , , . ) yea rather , sith the th . consideration upon which the inference rests chiefly , is from the state in which persons were put by creation and redemption , which is into the invisible rather then the visible . now then if these considerations are not sufficient to assure parents who are in the invisible church that their infants are in the same society , neither are they sufficient to assure them they are visible churchmembers . . it is a calumny of mr. b. which is insinuated as if i held that all the seed of believers shall be turned out of the society whereof the parents were members . . it is a gross conceit , and contrary to the plain doctrine of the scripture , concerning election and reprobation of jacob and esau , which is intimated , as if the designe of redemption under the gospel to the members of christ should be , that as the members or seed of adam , so all the seed should partake of the same blessings with the righteous parents . . what hee saith he hath largely proved in one of the private disputes at kederminster among the associate ministers in worcestershire ( as i conjecture ) i do not contradict peremptorily , as not knowing how he stated the question , nor what his proofs were , yet it seems to mee to be an errour , nor am i very apt to give assent to mr. bs. determinations , however the associate ministers may perhaps take him for a pythagoras , whose ipse dixit must not be gainsaid . once more saith he , yet before i cite any more particular texts , i will add this one argument from the tenour of the covenant of grace as expressed in many texts of scripture . according to the tenour of the covenant of grace , god will not refuse to be their god and take them for his people , that are ( in a natural or law sense ) willing to be his people , and to take him for their god. but the infants of believing parents are thus willing , ergo. the major is unquestionable . the minor is proved from the very law of nature before expressed ▪ infants cannot be actually willing themselves in natural sence , ergo , the reason and will of another must be theirs in law sence , and that is of the parents , who have the full dispose of them , and are warranted by the law of nature to choose for them ( for their good ) ●ill they come to use of reason themselves . the parents therefore by the light and law o● nature choosing the better part for their children , and offering and devoting them to god , by the obligation of his own natural law , he cannot in consistency with the ●●ee grace revealed in the gospel , refuse those that are so offered and those that thus come to him in the way that nature it self prescribeth , he wi●l in no wise cast out , ... . and he will be offended with those that would keep them from him , that are offered by those that have the power to do it , though they cannot offer themselves . for legally this act is taken for their own . thus i have shewed you ●ome of the fundamental title that infants of believers have to churchmembership , and our obligation to dedicate them to god. answ. they are ( as i conceive mr. b. ) willing to be gods people in a natural sence , who do in their own persons actually will this ; in a law sence , who having not use of reason themselves , do will by another who hath the dispose of them , as v. g. a parent . that some acts of a parent are legally taken for the childs , it 's not denied . but in this argument of mr. b. i deny the major . and whereas mr. b. saith , it is unquestionable , i say , it is manifestly false , there is no such thing in the tenour of the covenant of grace ; yea , god did refuse ishmael , and esau , though abraham and isaac prayed for them , and dedicated them ( in mr. bs. sense ) to god. what mr. b. dictates by way of proof , whether of the major or minor ( which i think he did not well heed ) is not true ▪ infants cannot will of themselves , therefore the reason and will of another must be theirs in law sence . for it follows n●t , unless the law-giver do ordain it so . nor doth it follow , that if the infants cannot will , and anothers will must be theirs in law sence , it must in church matters be the will of the natural parents . for in such things it may be as well conceived that the will of the mother the church ( as it is termed , ) the church-governours , or as some will the gossips should be their will in the law sence , and that they have the power to dispose of them , and are warranted by the law of nature to choose for them ( for their good ) as the natural parents . the speeches [ the parents by the ●ight and law of nature choosing the better part for their children , and offering them , and devoting them to god by the obligation of his own natural law , he cannot in consistency with the free grace revealed in the gospel , refuse those that are so offered , ] is false , the gospel no where ●ssuring grace to those that are offered by anothers will , but to those who repent and believe themselves . the speech [ and those that thus come to him in the way that nature it self prescribeth , he will in no wise cast out , joh. .. ] is false , it being certain god hath cast out many so comming , as esau , ishmael , &c. and hath a tincture of p●●agianism ; and the text , joh. . . to which mr. b. alludes , is grosly abused by him , sith it speaks onely of th●se that come to christ by their own faith , and of not casting out from the invisible church , and everlasting life , as v. , . shew , not meerly from the visible church . and the speech [ and he will be offended with those that would keep them from him that are offered by those who have the power to do it , though they cannot offer themselves , ] being meant of not baptizing them , is also false ; and the contrary is true , that he will be offended with those who baptize infants which he never appointed , but profane the ordinance , being appointed onely for them who are themselves disciples and believers . and thus mr. bs. fundamental title to infants visible churchmembership is blown up . mr. b. adds . you must now in reason expect , that infants church-membership being thus established , partly in the law of nature , and partly in the fundamental promise , what is after this spoken of it should not be any new establishment , but confirmations and intimations of what was before done , rather giving us the proof that such a law and promise there is that did so establish it , then being such first establishing laws or promises themselves . and from hence i may well add this further argument . if there be certain proof in scripture of infants churchmembership , but none except this before alledged that makes any mention of the beginning of it , but all speaking of it as no new thing , then we have great reason upon the forementioned evidence , to assign this beginning which from gen. . we have exprest . but the former is true , ergo the later . you confess that infant●s were churchmembers once . you onely conceive it began when abraham was called out of ur. your con●●t hath not a word to support it in the text. the right to such a blessing was then new to abrahams seed , when ab●aham first believed : but when it began to belong to infants of believers in general , no text except this before cited doth mention . nor doth that promise to abraham intimate any inception then as to the churchmembership of infants , but onely an application of a priviledge to him that in the general was no new thing . answ. mr. b. mistakes in conceiving visible churchmembership to belong to infants of believers in general , and therefore it must be derived from gen. . . i retort his argument . if there be certain proof in scripture of infants churchmembership , but none except in the nation of the hebrews , and that had its beginning at the call of abraham out of ur , and ended at the rejection of the jews , then infants visible churchmembership began with abrahams call , and now ceaseth . but the antecedent is true . ergo , also the consequent . the consequence is in effect mr. bs. in the minor the first and third propositions are proved by the dispute before : for the second [ that the nation of the hebrews began with abraham , ] besides the allegation before of nehem . . acts . . where he is called their father , and the story of the hebrews begun from abrahams call , the words of the prophet , isa. . , . are express to this purpose ; calling abraham and sarah the rock whence they were hewen , and the hole of the pit whence they were digged , abraham their father and sarah that bare them , and mentioning gods calling him alone , blessing him and increasing him as the cause of it ( which doth prove that it was by the transeunt fact which i described , not by mr. bs promise and precept that they were churchmembers ) and this as a new thing , god having chosen no other people of the earth as he did the jews , deut. . . and therefore i deny mr. bs. minor , and conclude , that visible church-membership of infants was onely in the nation of the hebrews ; not by a promise to be a god to believers and their seed , and a precept to parents to dedicate them to god , and list them in christs army ; but by the transeunt fact of calling abraham , blessing , multiplying him , bringing them out of aegypt to himself , which was to be demonstrated . l●t●s yet view mr bs. confirmations , whether they be any better then his primitive establishments . sect . lix . the sayings of adam , eve , noah , concerning cain , seth , shem , the term sons of god , gen. . . prove not mr. bs. law of infants visible church-membership unrepealed . now for the texts , saith he , that further intimate such a foregoing establishment . . there seems to be some believing intimation of this in adams naming his wife the mother of the living : for it is to be noted what bp , usher saith , annal vol. . p. . unde tum primum ( post semen promissum ) mulieri evae nomen a marito est impositum , gen. . . quod mater esset omnium viventium non naturalem tantum vitam , sed illud quoque quod est per fidem in semen ipsius , messiam promissum : quomodo & post eam sara fidelium mater est habita . pet. . . gal. . . ] he put this name on her after the promise , because she was to be the mother of all the living , not onely that live the life of nature , but that which is by faith in the messiah her seed . so that as she was the root of our nature , we are her natural seed ; and as she was a believer , and we the seed of her a believer , so is she the mother of a holy seed , and we that are her seed are holy , as a people visibly dedicated to god. answ. though the exposition were allowed , and the inference thereon , that we that are her seed , that is by faith in the messiah , are holy ; yet it follows not that we are so as a people visibly dedicated to god , much less that our infants are so without their own faith by vertue of their parents dedication : and therefore this text , according to mr. bs. exposition ( which yet may be questioned ) yeelds no confirmation of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed . . saith he , when cain was born , his mother called him [ possession ] because she had obtained a man of the lord , that is , saith ainsworth , [ with his favour , and of his good will , ] and so a son of promise , and of the church . and therefore it is to be noted , that when cain had sinned by killing his brother , god did curse him , and cast him out of his presence , gen. . , . so that he was excommunicate and separated from the church of god , saith ainsworth , [ that is , from the place of gods word and worship which in likelihood was held by adam the father , who being a prophet , had taught his children how to sacrifice and serve the lord. so on the contrary , to come into gods presence or before him , chron. . . is explained in psal. . to be the comming into his courts . ] very many learned men give the same exposi●ion of it . now if cain were now excommunicate , then was he before of the church : nay it 's certain by his sacrificing , and other proof , however this text be interpreted : but no man can give the least reason from scripture to make it so probable 〈◊〉 he entred into the church at any other time , as we give of his entrance at his nativity . answ. eve doth not say , that she possessed a son of god , member of the church from the lord , but a man , by vertue of the power given to the parents for procreation , gen. . . notwithstanding the curse , gen. . . which was from the lord , psal . . gen. . . that is , by his providence , and in some respect with his favour and good will , considering her desert , and danger it was that she possessed him when both their lives were in so great hazard . that cain was a churchmember visible from his infancy hath no probability , there being no hint of it in that text , or any other . the proofs that infant visible church-membership was onely in the hebrew nation , have beene shewed before . also , saith mr. b. when eve bare seth , she so named him as a son of mercy in faith , as appointed her by the lord to be in abels room , faithfull as abel , and the father of our lord afte● the flesh , as ainsworth on gen. . . and is there no intimation in this that seth was an infant member of the visible church ? i confess he that shall excommunicate this appointed seed , or saith , that seth was without the church in his infancy , doth speak in my ears so improbably , and so unlike the scripture , that i am very confident i shall never believe him . answ. nor should i , meaning as mr. ainsworth , seed ] that is another son : that as abrahams seed was called in isaac ( ishmael being excluded ) gen. . . so eves seed should be in seth , tha● is the elect seed , and so he a member of the invisible church in infancy ; and yet there 's no in●imation that ●e was an infant member of the visible church , from which ishmael was not excluded . in which though i p●ace not seth , yet i do not thereby excommunicate seth , or say that he was without the church in his infancy . mr. b. adds . note also , that as god had thus cast out cain , and supplied abels room by seth and had given each of them posterity ; so we find him in a special manner registring the successors of the righteous , and putting two titles on these two distinct generations , calling some the sons of god , and others the daughters of men , gen. . . supposing that you reject the old conceits that these sons of god were angels that fell in love with women , the current ordinary exposition i think will stand , that these were the progeny of seth , and other members of the church , who are called the sons of god ; and that it was the progeny of cain , and other wicked ones , that are called the daughters of men . where note that they are not themselves denominated wicked , but the children of men , as being a generation separated from the church from the birth . and the other are not themselves affirmed to be truly godly ones , but son● of god , as being the seed of the saints not cast out , but members of the church , or the sons of those who were devoted to god ▪ and so devo●ed to him themselves : a separated generation belonging to god as his visible church . where note , that these that are called the sons of god , even the line of seth and other godly parents , were yet so wicked that god repented that he made them , and destroyed them in the floud , sparing onely noah and his family . so that it was not their own godliness that made them called the sons of god , but their relation , churchstate , and visible separation from open unchurched idolaters . compare this phrase with the like , deut. . . cor. . . in the former it 's said [ ye are the children of the lord your god , ye shall not cut your selvs , &c. ] where the whole people , infants and all are called gods children , as being a people separated to him from the idolatrous world ; and so in the next v. called a holy people unto god , peculiar to him , &c. and cor. . . come out from among them , and be ye seperate , &c. and i will be a father to you , and you shall be my sons and daughters , saith the lord almighty . ] so that gods sons and daughters are that society that are separated from idolaters unto the worship of god as the visible church is . and then it appears that the generation of the righteous , even from the womb , were ennumerated to the rest , in that they are not mentioned as a people called out here and there , and initiated at age ( here 's no mention of any such thing : ) but as a stock or generation opposed to the daughters of men , or of the unchurched , who were such from their infancy as all will grant . for it was not the same men that were the parents of those here called the daughters of men and the sons of go● ( though some of the later might be excommunicate when they fell : ) but it plainly intimates , that it was another sort of men that these were the daughters of , then those that were parents to the sons of god. so ainsworth in loc . [ the sons of god , i. e. the men of the church of god , for to such moses saith , deut. . . &c. joh. . . daughters of men , meaning of cains posterity that were out of gods church , gen. . . ] so our annotations , and many more . answ. . there is not sufficient evidence in the text to prove it , that the sons of god were of seths , and the daughters of men of cains posterity : they might be some of the daughters of men of seths , and some of the sons of god of cains progeny , notwithstanding what is in the text . and there is this reason against it , that sith gen. . . it is said , that cain went out from the presence of the lord , and dwel● in the land of nod on the east of eden , and that he built a city called enoch , that the posterity of cain and seth dwelt so far one from another , that they had not occasion to see one another so as to fall in love with their beauty . and whereas it is clear that adam after he begat seth begat sons and daughters gen. . living years , and that the great change in religion was about the time of enos birth gen. . . the sons of god and daughters of men might be of other races then cain and seth. but i shall not contend about this . . nor is it manifest that either sort of persons are ca●led so from their descent , or church-state by birth . for the one are not called the sons of god from their birth , but practise or profession , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , saith chrysostom hom . on genes . because until then they did imitate their progenitors vertue , piscat . analys . gen. per filios dei intelligendi sunt i● qui re●igionem puram profitebantur , praesertim ex sethi & enoskhi posteris ▪ gatak . adv . p●ochen . c. . apud quos religionis verae professio hactenus perstiterat . usher annal. vol. . p. . ad an . m. . sethus annos natus filium genuit cui enoshi nomen imposuit : quod conditionis humanae deplorandam denotat miseriam , tunc enim a camitis cultus divinus miserè corruptus fuit : unde ea inter homines distinctio fa●●a ; ut qui in verò dei cultu permanserunt fil●i dei ; qui autem ab eo desciverunt filii hominum sint appellati . gen , . . cum . , . christoph. cartwright annot ▪ ad gen. . . at ex textu apparet hosce dei filios professione po●iùs quàm reipsa s●nctos fuisse . the new annot. on gen. . . sons of god ] rational creatures and of humane kinde ; yet in this place distinguished from the daughters of men , not onely by their sex , but by their qualities or relati●ns ; by their qualities , as persons of some eminent endowments or estimation above others as ( what is excellent is in the scripture phrase especially entituled unto god , as the garden of eden , ezek. . . & ch . . v. , . the hill of god , ps. . . ) or by their relations , as such as descending from seth and enosh professed the true worship of the true god , and so became capable of the title of the sons of god , deut. . . cor. . . whence i infer , that in the judgement of these authors they are termed the sons of god not from their churchmembership by bi●th , but their profession and practise . on the other side , the parents of the daughters are termed men not from their discent by birth , or exclusion out of the church by birth , but as the term [ man ] is taken for corrupt unregenerate men as ainsworth , so paul cor. . . piscat . sch . in gen. . . nisi potius est ut nomine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 adam hîc intelligatur primus ille generis humani parens : ut significetur illas ge●●isse imaginem illam secundùm quam adamus genuit liberos , non autem ●uisse regineratos spiritu dei. which exposition is very likely that they are termed daughters of adam , not daughters of men , because they were corrupt as adam , a● gen. . . adam is said to beget a son in his own image corruptus corruptum , as pisc. sch . in locum , in opposition to gods image . v. . so hos. . . and then daughters of adam doth not note their discent but qualities and practise , as daughters of sara pet. . . that is , that they revolted from the true worship of god , as adam from god. which things premised , i deny . that it is true that the women are not themselves denominated wicked , but the children of men , as being a generation separated from the church from the birth . for there is nothing in the text that proves the men were the posterity of cain , nor that all the posterity of cain were out of the church , nor that these men were out of the church , though they were corrupt persons or degenerate members , and therefore nothing to prove they were excluded from the church from the birth , by reason of their discent . and it may bee well conceived that the term [ daughters of adam ] doth note th●ir wickedness as treacherously departing from god as he did . i deny they are termed [ sons of god ] who chose the daughters of adam for their beauty , as being the seed of the saints , &c. but as being at least in appearance holy and true worshippers and chosen by god , they are so denominated no● from their discent from the godly , for then they had been called the sons of the saints rather then of god , but from their profession and pract●se , if the interpretation of aben ezra that they were the sons elohim of the judges or mighty or that other that they were eminent persons , hold not . . i deny that it can be proved that these sons of ●od were not truly godly , or that that they were so wicked that god repen●ed that he made them , and destroyed them in the flood . for neither doth their love of women prove they were not truly godly , solomon is judged truly godly nehem. . . though hee fell perhaps more deeply into the same sin . sampson was a believer heb. . . yet sinned this way . nor doth that which is said gen. . , , . prove it , for that is rather to be understood of the nephilim or giants , or the posterity of the the sons of god mentioned v. . rather then of the sons of god themse●ves ▪ v. . and therefore it is not proved that it was not their own godliness that made them called the sons of god , but their church state . nor is the●e any thing deut. . . that proves the sons of god gen. . . were such from their infancy as born of churchmembers for they are the sons of gods there either by profession or special choice v. ● . not from their parentage . much less is there any thing cor. . . to that purpose , for the promise of son-ship there is not from birth but obedience v. . and as gen. . . their being made sons of god is not exprest to be by calling , so neither is it said to be by humane generation , nor doth it follow if the daughters of men were such from their birth , the sons of god must be so from their birth , no not though sons of god noted a generation or stock , as it doth not follow that because that which is born of the flesh is flesh from the birth , that that which is born of the spirit is spirit from the birth , joh. ● . . also , saith mr. b. an intimation of this priviledge , and that they were sons of mercy and of the promise , appeareth in the very names of many of the children of the righteous , both before and after the flood , which i will not stand on particularly . answ. this is granted , but proves not their visible churchmembership from their birth . he adds ▪ and when all the world had so defiled themselves , that god was resolved to cut them off ▪ he spared noah and his family or sons . though cham was to be cursed , yet was hee of the church which worshipped the true god , and spared as a son of noah , and one of that society . and if god so far spared him then for his fathers sake as to house him in the ark ( the type of the church ) hee sure took him to be of the same society in his infancy , and then bare him the same favour on the same account . answ that the ark was a type of the church is not said in scripture , it is rather made a type of baptism pet. . . but let it bee granted the ark was a type of the church , and that cham was in the ark for his fathers sake and a memb●r of the church , yet it followes not he was so in infancy , he might be so as a worshipper of the true god , though himself in other things corrupt . again saith mr. b. as soon as noah came out of the ark god blessed himself in his issue ▪ as he did adam , with an [ increase and multiply ] and made a covenant with him and his seed after him . which covenant though the expressed part of it be that the earth should bee drowned no more , and so it was made with the wickedst of noahs seed , and even with the beasts of the field , yet doth it import a special favour to noah and his seed , as one whom god would shew a more special respect to , as he had done in his deliverance , and upon this special favour to him the creatures fare the better . for though the word [ covenant ] be the same to man and beast , yet the diversity of the promissary and his capacity may put a different sense on the same word , as applied to each . and indeed it should seem but a sad blessing to noah to hear an [ increase and multiply ] if all his infant posterity must be cast or left out of the visible church , and so left as common or unclean . this were to encrease and multiply the kingdome of the devil . if he that was so mercifully housed in the ark with all his children , must now bee so blest as to have all their issue to be out of the church , it were a strange change in god , and a strange blessing on noah ! and an uncomfortable stablishing of a covenant with his seed , if all that seed must bee so thrust from god and dealt with as the seed of cursed cain . answ. though the covenant gen. . . should import a special favour to noah and his seed more then to the beasts ( which yet the text expresseth not ) yet that this should be infants visible churchmembership followes not , nor is it likely , sith then all the infant posterity ▪ yea all the seed of noah , and consequently all the men of the world since then should be visible churchmembers . nor was th● blessing of multiplying sad to noah , reduced to such a paucity , though his infant posterity were not of the visible church , nor were they any more common and unclean thereby , then they should have been if so taken , nor had this been to increase and multiply the kingdome of the devil , they that are not visible churchmembers may be of the kingdome of christ and not of the kingdome of the devil . i say not all noahs issue was out of the church , yet the leaving out infants from the visible church , shewed no change in god from what hee was to them when he housed the sons of noah in the ark , nor doth it any whit lessen the blessing expressed gen. . . nor doth it infer that all that seed must be thrust from god and dealt with as the seed of cursed cain . these are but frivolous inferences fit onely to scare weak heads . moreover , saith he , it is certain that noah did prophetically , or at least truly pronounce the blessing on sem and japhet . and in shems blessing he blesseth the lord his god , shewing that god was his god and so in covenant with him . and it is plain that it is not onely the persons , but the posterities of his three sons that noah here intended . it was not cham himself so much as canaan and his succeeding posterity that were to be servants to shem and japhet , that is to their posterity . and the blessing must be to the issue of shem , as well as the curse to the issue of cham. and indeed a hebrew doctor would take it ill at that expositor or divine whatsoever that should presume to exclude the infant seed of them out of gods church . and wel they may , if in the blessing god be pronounced to be their god. saith ainsworth in loc . [ under this sem also himself receiveth a blessing : for blessed is the people , whose god jehovah is , psal. . . and eternal life is implied herein , for god hath prepared for them a city of whom he is not ashamed to be called their god , heb. . . and sem is the first man in scripture that hath expresly this honour . answ. i grant that not onely the person of shem , but his posterity were blessed ; nor do i deny god was their god , nor that their infant seed was in gods church : but this doth not prove their visible churchmembership in infancy , but rather their invisible churchmemship , for that is imported by the phrase of being their god , as mr. ainsworths exposition intimates . god was god to jacob in his mothers womb , yet he was not then a visible , but an invisible church-member . moreover ( saith mr. b. ) in gen. . . in japhets blessing there is much , though in few words , to this purpose intimat●● . first , note that the jewish church is called [ the tents of sem. ] from whence it appeareth , that the church priviledges of that p●ople begun not with or from abraham , but were before : and that it is the same church that was of shem and of abraham , and after all the additional promises to abraham , the jewish church is still denominated [ the tents of sem : ] now they were the tents of sem before abrahams days . and therefore it is clear , that it being the same church , must be supposed to have t●e same sort of members or materials : and therefore infants must be members before abrahams days as well as after . that church which was sems tents had infant churchmembers ( for the jewes church is so called , into which japhet was to pass : ) but the church both before and after abraham was sems tents . ergo. answ. that the tents of sem note the jewish people , is not improbable : but then it is as certain that they are so called , not from what they were in sems days , at least not what they were when noah prophesied , but what they were to be afterwards when they were formed to be a peculiar people ; and they are sems tents , because they descended from him . and this is clear even from what mr. b. and all grant , that what is here said was accomplished in the posterity of sem , japhet and cham. and therefore it followes not that if the jewish people had infants churchmembers visible , it must be so in sems dayes , because they are termed sems tents , sith they are so termed from their discent , not from the state of the church in sems time . nevertheless if it bee granted that sems tents are the church of god in sems family in his days , it will rather prove it to note the invisible church then the visible . for the dwelling in the tents of sem in mr. bs. and their sense whom he follows , is by faith , and so the tents of sem must note the invisible church of true believers , of whom god is god as he was of sem , the israel of god , as they are termed gal. . . not the jewish church visible , and they were joyned by perswasion , and therefore not infants , who were to dwell in sems tents , and consequently infants visible churchmembership is not hence proved . and to mr. bs. argument i answer by granting the conclusion , if by sems tents be meant the invisible church , if the jewish people , the minor is denied . he goes on thus . yet further let it here bee noted , that it is into shems tents that japhet must pass . i suppose that the evidence is better here for that exposition that applieth the word [ dwell ] to japhet then to god , and so that this is spoken of the conversion of the gentiles , as many expositors have cleered at large . and so , as ainsworth saith , the sense is that japhet shall be [ united with the churches of the jews , the posterity of sem , which was fulfilled when the gentiles became joint heyr● , and of the same body , and joint partakers of gods promise in christ , the stop of the partition wall being broken down , &c. eph. . . & . , . although it may further imply the graffing of japhets children into the stock of the church , when sems posterity should bee cut off , &c. ] vid. ult . now if it be sems tents even the same church that japhets children must dwell in , then as sems infants were church-members , so must japhets , and not all his infant seed bee cast or left out . so that here is a promise of infant churchmembership unto the gentiles in these words . answ. for my part , for ought i yet discern , mr. nicholas fuller his exposition in his ●d . book of his miscellanies theological ch . . seems more right then that which mr. b. and many other expositors follow , to wit thus , god shall enla●ge the coasts of the posterity of japhet in asia , europe , and america , and god shall dwell in the tents of sem , that is , christ or god manifested in the flesh , shall dwell in the tents of sem ; that is among the jews , being of their stock , as it is john . . and canaan shall be servant to the israelites , and the posterity of japhet , as the canaanites , egyptians , carthaginians and other people of cham have been , being conquered by joshua , alexander the great , the romans , and other people . nor do i see how mr. bs. interpretation can be right , sith when japhet was perswaded to dwell in sems tents , chams posterity also were perswaded , and canaan was no more a servant in a spiritual sense , no nor so much as sems tents the jewish people ; nor were the gentiles perswaded to dwell in sems tents , that is , in the jewish church visible ; but it was quite dissolved , and they a separate church from them . and therefore it is most manifestly false , that the children of japhet must dwell in sems tents , that is , the same visible church jewish , and therefore the inference is wrong , there are infant visible members in the gentile church christian : yea sith according to mr. bs. own exposition , the gentiles were by the perswasion of the gospel , as it is ephes. . . of the same body , none of the gentiles were of the same body but those who were perswaded by the gospel , which cannot be said of infants , and therefore the contrary follow , from mr. bs. own exposition , that infants were not to be visible christian churchmembers . sect . lx. mr. bs. law of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed , is not proved from gen. . or . or . we come next , saith mr. b. to the promise made to abraham , which i shall say the less to , because you confess it . but again note , that whereas your self make the beginning of gods taking the jews to be his people , and so of infants to be members of the church , to be at abrahams●all ●all from ur. . there is no one word of that in the text . . lot came out of ur with abraham , yea and from haran , and lived with him : were not lot and his infants churchmembers then ? answ. . i confess a promise to abraham , but not that abraham or his infants were visible churchmembers by it , as the so●e or next efficient cause . . what word is in the text for the beginning of the jewish people to be gods church at abrahams call out of ur , is shewed above , from isai . , . nehem. . . acts . , . . lot came along with abram to canaan , but was there parted from him , and all along they were severed , and therefore lot though a righteous man , yet was not of the same church with abrams house , nor his infants if he had any , visible churchmembers , because god intended not to make his house and posterity his church visible . . saith mr. b. the chief note i intend is this , that there is no more said then to prove infants churchmembers , then what wee have shewed was said long before , and is said after the gentiles infants , no nor so much . if therefore the passage of abraham out of ur , yea or the promise made to him in haran , gen. . , . will prove infants churchmembership , then have we as good proof of it to the gentile church as to the jews . answ. i neither make abrahams passage out of ur , nor the promise in haran ( or rather in ur. gen. . , . ) to be that which made infants visible churchmembers in the hebrew nation , but gods special call , or taking the house of abraham entirely to bee his people , which mr. b hath not nor can shew to have been done to any other people . and here , saith he , i note further , that in the beginning before the command for circumcision , you plainly yeild that infants church-membership is a thing separable from circumcision , and begun not with it , but before . and indeed i think i have evinced that to you in my book of baptism . abraham himself was not made a member by circumcision , but circumcised because a member of christs church by faith ▪ ishmael was a member before , and so was isaac , and the infants born in abrahams house . answ. i grant visible churchmembership was before circumcision in abrahams house , but not that abraham was circumcised under this formal consideration , as a member of christs church by faith , but as one to whom it was commanded by god. mr. b. goes on . whether there were any promise or precept of this ( but a meer transeunt fact ) let the text last mentioned , and the following bear witness . gen. . , . [ in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed ] and gen. . , , . [ and i will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee — and i will be their god. and god said to abraham : thou shalt keep my covenant therefore , thou and thy seed after thee in their genera●ions . this is my covenant which you shall keep between me and you , &c. ] to vers . . in all this let these things be noted . . that here is an expres promise or covenant to abraham and his seed after him . . that it is not onely de praesenti , but for the future , called an everlasting covenant . . that this promise or covenant doth manifestly imply and include infants churchmembership ( as you confess . ) . that yet here is not the least word that intimates an institution of it de novo , but rather the contrary plainly intimated . the promises before gen. . are mainly about the multiplication of abrahams seed . what is that to churchmembership ? ( except what intimates the promised seed , of which anon . ) hagar hath a promise also of the multiplication of ishmaels seed . and the very precept of circumcision is onely one part of the infant members , viz. the males , and therefore it cannot be foundation of their churchmembership , which leaves out half the members . . note that the promise that god will be their god , doth expresly contain the churchmembership of the seed . . note that this is more then a transeunt fact , ergo being an everlasting covenant . had it been a natural transeunt fact , that had left no permanent title behind it in the obligation of the covenant , then it had been null and void as soon as spoken : then the word of god is but a bare sound and of no further force . . note that the apostle ( as is said ) rom. . , , , . doth fully manifest to us , that this promise was made to abraham as a believer , and that circumcision was a seal of the righteousness of faith which hee had , yet being uncircumcised : and therefore that the chief part of the covenant of having god for our god , and his taking us as his peculiar people , belongs to the gentiles as well as to the jews . . and he oft sheweth that the faithful are abrahams seed , and therefore the chief blessings of the promise belong to all the faithful . but one of the blessings was , that their infants should be comprehended in the same church and covenant , ergo , the infants of the faithful who are the heirs of the same promise , must be comprehended in it too . answ. . i deny not the promise gen. . . to include infants church-membership , but that i confess that it doth manifestly imply and include infants visible churchmembership mr. b. cannot shew . . the promise that god will bee their god , doth not expresly contain the visible churchmembership of infants . for god may be god to them who are not visible churchmembers , and he may not be god to them who are . . if in the promises gen. . , . gen. . . and the precept gen. . , . there be no institution de novo , nor foundation of infants church-membership , then in ants churchmembership visible ( which was not before abrahams dayes ) hath not foundation in the promises and precept , but the transeunt fact i have mentioned . . though i conceive that a transeunt fact may create a permanent title , as a gift , a delivery into our hands without a promise for future , may create a permanent title , nor do i deny that the covenant gen. . . did leave a permanent title behinde it ; yet i deny that the visible churchmembership of infants in abrahams house was by a title to be legally claimed , or by the covenant gen. . . as the causa procreans of it , though it might bee the causa conservans of it , in that it assured some of those acts whereby it was continued . . i deny that the apostle rom. . , , , . doth at all , much less fully manifest to us , that the promise gen. . . was made to abraham as a believer , though i grant what mr. b. infers from it in his th . note . the apostle doth plainly manifest , that in the gospel sense it was made to abraham as father of believers . . it is denied as most certainly false , that one of the blessings of the promise gen. . . to the faithful gentiles was , that their infants should be comprehended in the same church and covenant , yea the apostle concludes , and proves rom. . , , , , , , , . that all the posterity of abraham , isaac , and jacob , were not comprehended in that promise , and therefore the visible churchmembership christian of infants of gentile believers , c●n have no shew of proof from the promise gen. . . and precept v. . . . saith mr. b. i think it is not to bee made light of as to this ma●ter , that in the great promise gen. . . the blessing from abraham in christ is promised to all the families or tribes on earth [ all the families of the earth shall be blessed ] as the heb. samar . arabic . or [ all the kindreds ] as the vulgar lat. and chald. paraph. or [ all the tribes ] as the sept. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and doubtless it is by christ that this blessing is promised , and so a gospel blessing ( ergo the syriac . adds [ and in thy seed ] and the arab. hath [ by thee . ] ) and the apostle fully testifieth that . so that as tribes , kindreds , families , do most certainly comprehend the infants , and as it was to such families that the promise was made before christ as to the jewish church , so is it expresly to such families or tribes that the promise is made as to the gentiles since christ. answ. the blessing gen. . . is not visible churchmembership ( which may be without justification ) but justification , as the apostle expresly expounds it , gal. . . ( which may be without visible church-membership : ) nations there doth not comprehend every member of a nation , nor every one of a tribe or kindred , as it is acts . . but the elect , and believers of each nation , tribe , or kindred , as the apostle doth both v. . & . shew , terming them that are blessed those that are of faith . therefore though the scripture be not to be made light of , yet mr. bs. inference from thence is most vain , the promise being not of visible churchmembership , nor to nations , families , kindreds entirely , nor to infants of unbelievers or believers as such ; but to so many of all nations , kindreds , and families , as are believers or elect . whereby mr. b. may see how infants can be excluded these families , and this promise , without apparent violence to the text. . saith he , note that as infant churchmembership is here clearly implied in infant circumcision , so they are two distinct things ; and as the sign is here commanded de novo , so the thing signified ( i mean the duty of engaging and devoting to god as their god in covenant ) is commanded with it , though not de novo , as a thing now beginning as the sign did . so that here is in circumcision not onely a command to do the circumcising outward act , but also to do it as a sign of the covenant , and so withal for the parents to engage their children to god in covenant as their god , and devote them to him as his separated peculiar people . so that here are two distinct duties concurrent . ●he one external newly instituted , the other internal not newly instituted . and therefore the former may cease , and yet the later stand : and it 's no proof that the later ( covenant engagement of infants to god ) is ceased , because the sign of circumcision is ceased ; no more then it proves that such covenant engagement did then begin when circumcision did begin ; or that women were not churchmembers separated , engaged , dedicated to god in infancy , because they were not circumcised . and no more then you can prove that all israel was unchurched in the wilderness when they were uncircumcised for years . so that here you have a a command for entring infants as churchmembers . and so you see both promise and precept in gen. . & gen. . answ. i do indeed , but not such as mr. b. should produce , a promise of infants visible churchmembership , and a precept of their entring unrepealed ; there being no such promise of believers infants visible churchmembership , or precept of admission as visible churchmembers besides circumcision , which mr. b. will not sure say is unrepealed . as for his discourse of a duty of engaging , separating to god , and dedicating , which is internal , and not instituted de novo , it is neither in gen. . nor gen. . nor if it were , is it any thing to the purpose . for neither doth such an internal duty make or admit or enter an infant into the visible church , either jewish or christian. according to mr. b. himself , infants are visible churchmembers afore it , yea without it ; nor is the admission or entering into the church visible by it , but by an outward sign , as he himself determines , part . . ch . . of baptism : and this sure is now baptism , which mr. b. i presume will not now allow to parents , for then they should be ministers of the seals , which he counts one of my six errours . i never denied an internal duty of faith , prayer , vowing , &c. for the engaging and dedicating infants to god , prayer for them is practised by me in publick , but i deny that this makes them visible churchmembers , or admissable by baptism . he adds . and when i consider the parents , breeding , and manners of rebe●kah , i think it far more probable that she was a churchmember from her infancy , then that she was entred afterwards at age , or that she was a heathen or infidel when isaac married her . answ. what in the parents ; breeding , and manners of rebe●kah mr. b. observes , which should make it in any degree probable that she was a churchmember from her infancy , i know not : there are such things related gen. . of laban her brother , and rachel his daughters idols , as me thinks should move mr. b. to conceive , that either in that house there was no church of god , or at best a very impure one , though it is likely their idolatry and wickedness was not so great as that of the the canaanites , which made them more desirable and eligible wives for isaac and jacob , then the daughters of the canaanites , whom esau chose . mr. b. adds . and as here are before mentioned standing covenants , so it is to be noted how god intimateth the extent of the main blessing of them to be further then to abrahams natural seed , not onely in the express promise of the blessing to all the nations or families on earth ( of which before ) but in the assigned reason of the blessing which is common to abraham with other true believers . for gen. . , , . it 's thus alledged [ because thou hast done this thing , &c. and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed , because thou hast obeyed my voice . ] and gen. . , , . the covenant is renewed with isaac , and the same reason assigned , [ because that abraham obeyed my voice , and kept my charge , my commandments , my statutes and my laws . ] how mans obedience is said to be a cause of gods blessing , i am not determining ; but taking the words as i find them in general , i may conclude , that they are here given as a cause or reason of it some way or other . and though a special mercy may be given on a common ground or reason , yet where there is no apparent proof of the restriction , we are to judge the blessing common where the reason is common : at least , if a special blessing be superadded to abrahams seed ( upon the freeness of gods grace , or the eminency of abrahams obedience , ) yet there goes with it a mercy common to all where the reason of the mercy is found it being therefore the case of every true believer to be faithfull and obedient , yea , to prefer that before his own life , and not a son onely , it may be hence gathered , that god who blessed abrahams seed on that account , will bless theirs on the same , with the same blessings in the main ( as to his favour and acceptance of them ) though not with the same in the variable superadditionals or overplus of external things . answ. mr. b. like another procrustes ( though in vain ) would fain rack the texts gen . , , . & . , , . to his purpose . though i deny not but a common mercy may be granted on a special reas●n , and a special mercy on a common reason , god being a free agent ; yet in this business , the reason of abrahams mercy and the mercy it self are both so special and proper , that it is extream violence to the texts , to apply abrahams singular obedience in offering his son , so signally eminent , heb . . jam. . . to every believers obedience ; and the blessing granted to his seed , that it should be as the stars of heaven , as the sand on the sea shore , that in it all nations should bless themselves or be blessed , to every believers natural seed , and their visible churchmembership . this kind of arguing is too ridiculous to deserve a serious refutation . yet he hath not done . in exod. . . saith he , there is a law for the circumcising of all the males of strangers that sojourn in the land , that will keep the passover : which comprehendeth their churchmembership , as is shewed . answ. i grant there is , but not a law unrepealed . sect . lxi . covenants , promises , and speeches in the old testament , of israel , the righteous , prove not mr. bs. law of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed . the promise ( saith mr. b. ) to the whole people of israel , infants and all , that they should be [ a peculiar people , a kingdome of priests , and a holy nation , ] exod. . , . you cannot deny . this is a promise , and not a transeunt fact which made no promise . and the people are called to keep gods covenant , that they might have this promise fulfilled to them ▪ yea , if you had said , that it was a meer transeunt covenant or promise , reaching but to the persons then existent , and dying with them , though you had spoken more sence , yet no more truth then when you denied the law and promise , and substituted a transeunt fact . for . it is expresly a promise de futuro to a nation . . yea , and the apostle peter giveth the same titles to believers under the gospel , intimating the fulfilling of the promise even to them , as the promise to abraham was to the faithfull who were his uncircumcised seed . however , here is a covenant granting by way of confirmation the blessing of churchmembership to infants with the rest of israel : for certainly , this peculiarity , and holiness , and priesthood here mentioned , containeth their churchmembership : it is undeniable therefore , that such churchmembership is here granted by promise or covenant , not as a thing then beginning , but by way of confirmation of the like former grants . and it 's to be noted , that though this promise is made to all israel , yet not to be fulfilled to any of them , but on condition that they [ obey gods voice , and keep his covenant , ] ver . . on which conditions also any other might have then enjoyed the same blessing , and therefore so may do now , answ. i never denied promises to be to the whole people of israel ; but deny that they were by a promise , as the sole efficient cause , gods visible church , and their infants members . the promise exod. . , . presupposed their churchmembership , and promiseth continuance of it in an eminent manner . the israelites were churchmembers without the condition of obedience before the law was given ; yea , ahaz , manasseh , &c. were visible churchmembers though they were idolaters , but they lost that peculiarity , holiness , priesthood , upon their disobedience , which was there promised ; and so did the people , they lost the dominion , temple , priesthood , urim , and thummim , and other priviledges which are meant thereby , and should have been continued if they had not broken gods covenant by idolatry . yet no other nation could have had that state though they had been obedient and kept the laws , god having given those laws peculiarly to that nation , and confined that honour to that people till the messiah came . and though peter , pet. . , . apply these to believers , yet not in the same manner as they are meant exod. . , . nor is any infant now of a believer a visible churchmember by vertue of that promise . in deut. . , . the infants ( saith mr. b. ) with the rest are called the children of god , and a holy and peculiar people to the lord their god. answ. be it so , yet this is not ascribed to a promise or precept , but to gods choise of them . and ( saith mr. b. ) deut. . , . the covenant is expressed [ thou hast avouched the lord this day to be thy god , and to walk in his ways , and keep his statutes , and his commandments , and his judgements , and to hearken to his voice . and the lord hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people , as he hath promised thee , &c. [ and that thou mayest be an holy people , &c. ] is here no promise when the promise is exprest ? and is here no covenant , where the mutual covenant is described ? and i think you grant that infants are included . answ. there is a promise of god to them , but that did not make their infants visible churchmembers , though i deny not their avouching the lord for their god ( which was a transeunt fact ) did shew them to be visible churchmembers , nor do i any where deny that our covenant or promise to god doth make us visible churchmembers , but gods covenant or promise to infants upon the parents faith , as mr. b. asserts . mr. b. adds . so deut. . , . where the promise to the nation is , that if they hearken to gods voice and observe his commandements , they shall be blessed in the fruit of their bodies , and the lord will establish them a holy people to himself , as hee had sworn unto them . ] here is not only a covenant and promise for the future , but also an oath confirming it , as annexed to the same before . is this establishing covenant or promise but a transeunt fact ? or doth not this confirm their right to the benefit promised , which was received before by the same means ? answ. it doth , but the benefit promised v. . is not infants visible churchmembership , but encrease , health , strength , such a blessing as they had in their cattel as well as their children , as psal. . , , . & . , , , . and many more places is expressed . and v. . though their churchmembership was established according to gods covenant and oath , yet the establishing was not the covenant , oath , or promise of god , but a transeunt fact of providence in preserving , teaching them , continuing his worship among them , and such like acts . and , saith mr. b. ezra . . they are called the holy seed . answ. not all the seed of israel are called the holy seed , but those onely who were legitimate , that is , begotten by lawfull marriage according to moses law : the rest were termed the mixed multitude , neh. . . whom they separated from the rest , ezra . . as being no churchmembers , that is , part of the congregation of israel according to the law , neh. . . deut. . . & . . exod. . . of which more is to be seen in the first part of this review , sect . . so that those ezr. . . are termed the holy seed , not barely by covenant upon the parents faith , nor as all visible professors , as dr. hammond , in his defence of infant baptism , pag. . but as begotten by an ●sraelite on an allowed wife by the law of moses . mr. b. proceeds ▪ of that in deut. . i have formerly spoke enough . it is called a covenant . all israel with their little ones did enter the covenant and the oath with god , and which he made to them . it was a covenant [ to establish them for a people to himself , and that he may be to them a god , as he had before said and sworn . ] it is a covenant made even with them that stood not there , whether it be meant onely of the successive israelites ( and then it 's not a transeunt covenant ) or of all people whoever that will accept of the same terms ( and then it 's not proper to israel . ) it 's a covenant not made to them as meer israelites : but as obedient to the covenant terms , and covenant breaking would cut them off , v. , , , , , . is not churchmembership contained in [ god 's being their god , and taking them for his people thus in covenant ? ] doth not the promise give them an established right in this blessing ? is all this then no promise , but a transeunt fact ? answ. what hath been spoken of deut. . by mr. b. in the dispute at bewdley , and in his book of baptism , part . ch . & . and his corrective , sect . . will be examined in that which follows . for present , . it is sufficient to shew the impertinency of this text , to prove that there the covenant or promise of god upon condition of parents faith is the sole efficient of infants visible churchmembership , in that the covenant being then put , even with the children unborn , v. . yea and the parents then believing , yet the children unborn could not be then visible churchmembers , as mr. b. himself grants of baptism , pag. . they that were not , could not be members visible or invisible . for the sole efficient cause being actually put ( as the covenant and the parents believing are , deut. . even according to mr. b. ) the effect must be in act : but it is not so in the unborn , therefore the covenant and parents faith are not the sole efficient . . the oath or covenant of god is a distinct act from his establishing them for a people unto himself , and being a god to them , which are the consequent upon it , and are by transeunt acts consequent upon the covenant . so that though the covenant give a right to a blessing , yet it doth not make actually visible churchmembers without some other transeunt fact consequent upon it . the covenant assures a future existence , but suppposeth a present absence of the thing covenanted , and consequently without a further act consequent on it makes not any in present being visible church-members . so that as yet i find no text of scripture setting down the law and ordinance of infants visible churchmembership by gods promise upon parents faith or dedication commanded as the sole efficient unrepealed . l●t's view the rest . deut. . . saith he , there is a law and promise [ choose life , that thou and thy seed may live . ] this is the same covenant which asa caused the people to enter , chron. . and if there had been no law for it , there would have been no penalty , and then he would not have made it death to withdraw . it is the same covenant which josiah caused the people to enter , kin. . , . chron. . , . of levit. . , , . i have spoken elsewhere , and of some other texts . answ. . there is a law and promise deut. . but not such as mr. b. asserts as the sole efficient of infants visible churchmembership . the life there is not visible churchmembership , but a prosperous being in canaan , v. . and the distinction between [ thou and thy seed ] proves that deut. . . [ thou ] notes the captains , elders , officers , men of israel , v. . distinct from the little ones , wives , strangers , v. . though represented by them , and that my speech so much exagitated by mr. b. of baptism , p. , . was justifiable . . the covenants , chron. . & . , . kin. . , . of asa and josiah were covenants of israel to god , there 's no mention of gods promise or covenant to them as then made , and therefore it is not that whereby infants are made visible churchmembers according to mr. b. and so is impertinent to the point in hand . . the futility of mr. bs. argument from levit. . , , . is shewed in the d . part of this review , sect . it follows in mr. b. the second commandment , exod. . , . deut. . , . i think is a law , and containeth a promise or praemiant part , wherein he promiseth to shew mercy to the generations or children of them that love him and keep his commandments : of which i have also spoken elsewhere , to which i refer you . i see no reason to doubt but here is a standing promise , and discovery of gods resolution , concerning the children of all that love him , whether jews or gentiles , to whom this commandment belongs : nor to doubt whether this mercy imply churchmembership : and that this is fetcht from the very gracious nature of god , i find in his proclaiming his name to moses , exod. . , . answ. if this mercy here imply churchmembership to the infants of them that love him to a thousand generations , then it implies it to all the infants in the world , which cannot be true without such limitations as take away the certainty of any infants churchmembership existent . but there is nothing to prove that this mercy must be church-membership , or that it must be to all the children of them that love god , and are obedient , or that it must be to them in infancy , sith it may be true of other mercies , as preservation , provision , &c. to some onely , sith the speech is indefinite in a matter not necessary , and those persons at age , and loving god as their ancestors , without which the promise is not made good ; and therefore mr. b. had occasion enough to doubt whether this mercy implies visible churchmembership of all infants of visible professors or true believers , yea , he had cause to assure himself that it doth not , sith then it were not true in thousands of noahs , abrahams , and other holy mens posterity . wherefore all things considered , i incline to conceive this a promise of temporal blessings , chiefly to the israelites , to whom god intailed mercies more then to other people ; and if it be extended to higher mercies , and to other people , yet with reservation to himself of his free election , not without conditions and limitations as the event and other scriptures make necessary to be included , which will make it unserviceable for mr. bs. purpose . he adds . in psal. . . it is a general promise [ the children of thy servants shall continue , and their seed shall be established before thee ▪ ] it s usual in the old testament to express gods favour by temporal blessings , more then in the gospel ; but yet still they secure us of his favour . as [ i will not sail thee , nor forsake thee , ] might secure joshua more then us of temporal successes , and yet not more of gods never failing favour . answ. the words are not a promise of god , for they are directed to god , as the expressions [ thy servants , before thee , ] besides what is said before , v. , , , . shew , and therefore are not of the same rank with gods words to joshua , josh. . . yet they express such assurance as came either from a promise or a prophe●ical instinct . but whether the promise were general , or particular to some ; whether of temporal , or eternal blessings , is uncertain . the occasion seems to intimate this sense , from thy continuance , though we be now very low , yet we assure our selves that thou wilt not utterly cut off our children , but that thou wilt raise them up , notwithstanding our present desolations and captivity , or thou wilt re-ingraff them ( if meant of the conversion of the jews to christ , as hath been conceived ) and they shall continue either here as thy people a long time , or be thine for ever upon their calling again . either way , though they may intimate gods favour , yet not general to all his servants children , but to the jews ; nor to them do they intimate infant visible churchmembership , or to any other , but such a stability of their posterity in gods favour , and their obedience as is quite different from meer infant visible churchmembership , and may be without it . yet again saith mr. b. there is a stable promise to all gods people in general that have children , psal. . . [ but the mercy of the lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him , and his righteousness unto childrens children . ] and to be secured by promise of gods mercy and righteousness is the state of none without the church . answ. the promise must be understood of so many a●d such mercy and righteousness as that it may be true . but it is not true of all the children of them that fears god , that they are visible churchmembers , surely not of abortives and still-born children ; nor that they are partakers of saving mercy and righteousness , for ishmael , esau , &c. were not so : and therefore it must be understood of such temporal mercies , and so indefinitely as may agree to some out of the church , to whom god often shews mercy and righteousness of performing promises of preservation , increase , &c. which he shews not to others for their parents sake . and , saith mr. b. if they were all to be kept out of the church , i scarce think that [ children would be called an heritage of the lord , and the fruit of the womb his reward , ] psal. . . nor the man happy that hath his quiver full of them . nor would the sucking children be called as part of the solemn assembly to the humiliation , joel . . chron. . . answ. children may be an heritage of the lord , and his reward , though they be not visible churchmembers , as the land of canaan was an heritage , psal. . . and he may be happy that hath many of them , with that happiness which is mentioned in the forepart of the th . v. of psal. . though they be no churchmembers : and yet the infants of the israelites i acknowledge were members of that church or people , and that the psalmist speaks of them . and so do the texts , joel . . chron. . . though the assembling of them do no more prove them visible churchmembers , then the cloathing of beasts with sackcloth , jonah . , . doth prove the beasts churchmembers , it being usual in such national fears and humiliations to have all whatsoever to be among the mourners , whether churchmembers or not ; as the men of tyre were forced by nehemiah , ch . . . to rest on the sabbath . mr. b. adds . there is a standing promise to all the just , prov. . . [ the just man walketh in his integrity , his children are blessed after him . ] there is no sort of men without the church that is pronounced blessed in scripture . a blessed people are gods people , and those are the church separated from the cursed world . one lower blessing will not denominate a man or society , a blessed man or society . answ. it is a standing promise or observation : but that all his children are blessed , or that they are visible churchmembers , much less that there is a promise or law that all visible churchmembers infants should be visible churchmembers cannot be thence inferred . that without the church a person is pronounced blessed is apparent from ishmaels blessing , gen. . , . when he was excluded the covenant and cast out . yet more saith mr. b. if it were a good argument then , deut. . . [ because he loved thy fathers , therefore he chose their seed after them , ] then it is good still as to favour in general . so deut. . . psal. . . prov. . . the seed of the righteous shall be delivered . answ. it is no good argument , because god loving the fathers of the israelites chose their seed after them , therefore he chooseth the seed of every righteous man to be his people , or that he sheweth favour to them . the contrary is manifest in lot , job , and others , whose posterity god shewed not favour as he did to the posterity of abraham , isaac , and jacob , whereof the former is termed gods friend , james . . and it is certain from rom. . , . & . . that god did and will shew them that favour that he never did nor will shew to the posterity of any the most godly persons of other nations . what is said , psal. . . is said onely of the obedient israelites ; and if it be extended to others , it can be meant onely of those tha● love the name of god , and therefore makes nothing for the visible churchmembership of infants of believers either by profession or real . whether it be read , delivereth himself , as junius , or shall be delivered , it is neither universally true , as is manifest in the posterity of david , josiah , and others ; nor is any whit to the point of infants visible churchmembership , which may be without it , and that may be without it . nor is mr. bs. inference good , in psal. . . there is a general promise to , or declaration of the righteous , that [ his seed is blessed , ] and then they are churchmembers : for the text neither speaks generally of any righteous man , but of him that is mercifull and lendeth , and the v. before sheweth it plainly to be meant of outward blessing , as in freedome from extream want of bread , and the like , which must have its limitations that it may be true ; there 's not a word of their infant visible churchmembership . there 's yet a reserve of mr. b. which he thus marshals . in isa. . , . it is promised i think of gospel times [ i will make an everlasting covenant with them , and their seed shall be known among the gentiles , and their off●spring among the people : all that see them shall acknowledge them , that they are the seed which the lord hath blessed . and cap. . . they shall call them the holy people , the redeemed of the lord : and thou shalt be called , sought out , a city not forsaken . ] gospel promises then extend to [ people and cities , ] whereof infants are a part . isa. . . [ they are the seed of the blessed of the lord , and their off-spring with them . ] this is plain , and full , and durable . answ. be it so , yet is it all impertinent to mr. bs. purpose . if isai . , . be a promise of a thing to be fulfilled in gospel times , yet it cannot be meant of infants , sith it is affirmed that the seed shall be known among the gentiles , that is , saith mr. gattaker in his annot. they shall so grow and multiply , thrive and prosper , that they shall become very conspicuous , matth. . , . and that it shall evidently appear to all that see them , that there goeth a blessing of god along with them , acts . . which are spoken of the apostles and their preaching , not of infants and their churchmembership , isai . . is said of zion and jerusalem , v. . . and is thus by mr. gattaker in his annot. paraphrased . and men shall call them ( to wit sions sons or those that belong to her , and shall now again people her , vers . . ) the holy people , the redeemed of the lord ] such as god by rescuing and delivering them out of the hands of so powerful adversaries , in so strange a manner , hath shewed that he owneth for his . sought out ] or , sought unto , or sought after , as one had in high estimation and regard ; whom out of respect and regard men repair and resort unto . see psal. . . contrary to that which was formerly said of thee in the time of thy low and dejected estate , jer. . . a city not forsaken ] as she seemed to be formerly in the time of her captivity . see v. . which shews these things are meant of the jews safety and honour after their return from captivity , not of infants visible churchmembership under the gospel . yet if it were a prophesie of the gospel times , it followes not infants shall be visible churchmembers because cities comprehend infants . for in the gospel sense , nation , house , city , comprehend onely believers , and not infants of believers , as such , as appears from these and other texts . gal. . . ephes. . , . pet. . , . isa. . . is a prophesie of the welfare of the jews after their return from captivity , as v. , . before shew , and the meaning is as mr. gataker , diodati and others expound it , they shall not bring forth children as formerly to be consumed by war , pestilence and such evils , because gods blessing , which makes rich , healthy , safe , prosperous , is with them and their children : which sense is quite wide from mr. bs. conceit of a law of infants visible churchmembership in the time of the gospel . he yet adds , what is necessary to be said in answer to the common objections , as [ that experience tels us all the seed of the righteous are not blessed ] with the like , i suppose already done in my book of baptism . all the seed of the righteous are blessed , though not all with that blessing which cannot be lost and cast away by themselves when they come to age . answ. what is said in his book of baptism , will be examined when i come to it . for present it is but mr. bs. dictate that all the seed of the righteous are blessed , the indefiniteness of the scripture expressions the matter being contingent , experience and the apostles exposition of the promise gen. . . rom. . , , . are against it ; yet if it were true , ●t followes not it must be visible churchmembership , it might be some other blessing , of which god hath store , yea it is certain it canno● be visible churchmembership , sith abortives and still born infants , though the seed of the righteous , are never so blessed , and the children of the holy seed ezra . . begotten on prohibited women were to bee cast out of the jewish church . mr : b. adds , if you say that the word [ seed ] doth not necessarily include infants . i answer , infants are part of the seed of the righteous , yea all their seed are first infants . if therefore god have made general promises as to age and person , who is he that dare limit it , without just proof that indeed god hath limited it ? doth god say , that the seed of the righteous are not blessed till they come to age ? if he pronounce the seed blessed they must be blessed , when they are first such a seed : and if any one age might be more included then another , one would think it must bee that wherein they are so meerly the seed of such as that they stand not on any distinct account of their own actual faith or unbelief . for the seed of the righteous , as such , have a promised blessing : but the seed of the righteous turning themselves to unrighteousness , do turn from that blessing , and become accursed . answ. mr. b. not holding children in the womb unborn to be visible churchmembers all this may be retorted , they are part of the seed of the righteous , all their seed are such , how dare then mr. b. limit the general promises to infants born ? the seed is blessed , and so must be visible churchmembers when they are first such a seed , which is as soon as they are conceived in the womb , then they stand not on any distinct account of their own actual faith or unbelief . what mr. b. replies to this will answer himself . however i deny that without just proof it is to be so limited i limit the promises , that if god pronounce the seed blessed , they must be blessed when they are first such a seed , for then if the blessing be justification , glorification , they must be justified , glorified , afore they believe , or are obedient , which mr. b. condemns in antinomians . and if infants stand not on any distinct account of their own actual faith , they are not christian visible churchmembers , for all such are in their own persons first believers . nor is it true that the seed of the righteous as such ( taking it reduplicatively ) have a promised blessing . for then all and onely such should have it , and at all times , the contrary is manifest in cham , esau , &c. mr. b. concludes . i suppose i have already been more tedious then you expected : i will therefore add no more of these passages of scripture , having said that which satisfieth me formerly to the same purpose , and having yet seen nothing that leaves me unsatisfied . and also because one text either containing such a law or covenant as you call for , or declaring to us that god did make such a law or covenant , is as good as a thousand in point of authority . answ. it is true mr. b. hath been more tedious then was fit , considering the impertinencie of his allegations , yet not much more then i expected , knowing it to be his course especially in this controversie , to heap many texts impertinently . that he is satisfied with his former writings , especially after the answering of the chief parts by me and others , shews either his injudiciousness or his heedlesness , or unwillingness through prejudice to see his errour . that there is not one text for his purpose brought in his letter to me , is made manifest by this answer , the rest shall be examined after the answer to the remainder of his letter if god permit . sect . lxii . m● . bs. th . and th . qu. about the repealableness and repeal of his imagined law of infants visible churchmembership , and his eight additionals are answered . the next qu. saith he , that i should speak to is , whether these laws , or covenants , or promises , are capable of a revocation , or repeal ? and i shall take this for a question that needs no further debate , among men that know what a law or promise is . gods immutability and perfection may make some ●aws unrepealable , while the subject remains : but otherwise the thing it selfe is capable of it . onely where a promise or law is but for a limited time , when the time is expired it ceaseth , and the cessation is as to the nulling of it , equal to a revocation or abrogation . i put in this question , lest you should hereafter change your minde and say , that indeed it is a law , or promise , or covenant , by which the right of churchmembership is conferred , and infants dedicated to god : but it is but a transeunt law or covenant . ] answ. if so then it is either immediately or presently transeunt , or at a certain limited time onely , when it will cease . the former is certainly false and intollerable . for . they are promises and laws for the future , and therefore cease not immediately . . that were to make god the most unfaithful promiser and mutable law-maker in the world , if his promise and his lawes cease as soon as they are made . nay it makes them to be no lawes or promises . . it was one standing law and promise that belonged to the nation of the jewes successively . and god did not make his promise anew to every infant that was made a churchmember , nor renew his law to every parent to enter their children into his covenant by the signe of circumcision . were not the circumcised israelites in the wilderness made members by the efficacy of the former covenant of god remaining in force . and did former laws oblige to circumcision till christ ? else there were but few members , nor but few that circumcised warrantably , if the promise and precept did extend but to the person that it was first delivered to , and every one else must likewise have a personal promise and precept . the mother of christ cannot then be proved to have been a churchmember in infancy . if it be said that these promises were limited in the making of them , to a certain time when they were to cease , i say when that 's proved we shall believe it , which i have not yet seen done . answ. the occasion of this question i conceive to have been the words in my second letter , [ wherefore i still press you that you would shew me where that law , ordinance , statute or decree of god is , that is repealable , that is , which may in congruous sense be either by a later act said to be repealed or else to be established as a law for ever . ] the reason of my speech was , because i perceived by his former letter , mr. b. made his law unrepealed to be by promise and precept . now though i conceived a precept might in congruous sense be said to be repealed , yet i conceived a promise ( which it seems is the law he means ) not in congruous sense repealable . for though a promise be a law to the promiser , yet i know not how congruously it should be repealed . 't is true , the act of promising being transeunt ceaseth , but that cannot be repealed ; that which is done , cannot be infectum , not done . the obligation of the promise may cease , if it were limited to a certain time , and that expired ; or if it were upon condition , and that fails ; or to a person not existent , or of a thing not feasible , or unlawfull : the former is not by repeal , but by expiration , which mr. cawdrey doth distinguish from re●eal and substitution , of the sabbath , part . ch . . & part . ch . . the later are not by repeal of the promise ( for it stands in force as much as ever , ( but by accident through intervenient impediments there is for present an intermission of the obligation . repeal properly is by an after declaration , which cannot be congruously said of god , that he did promise indeed such a thing , but now he will not promise it , or will not stand to his promise , it were to make god fickle , and unfaithful . and therefore i expected a law of precept to make infants visible churchmembers , to bee assigned by mr. b. for mee to prove repealed , and not a law of promise , which is not in congruous sense repealable , and therefore a repeal properly so called not to be expected of me . which being rightly conceived answers this question , and saves me the reply to what he saith , to prevent an imaginary change of my minde and assertion not yet delivered . he adds . and it falls in with the last question , which is , whether these promises be indeed revoked and ceased , and these laws repealed or ceased . and here it is that i have long expected your solid proof , together with the satisfactory answer to my arguments to the contrary . and so i shall leave this task in your hands . sure i am that christ never came to cast out of the church , but to gather more in : much less to cast out all the infants , even all of that age in which himself was head of that church : but to gather together in one the children of god that were scattered , joh . . and therefore he would of● have gathered all jerusalem and judaea , even the national church that then was unto himself , as the true head , even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings , and they would not . it was not because he would not ( as intending a new frame , where infants could have no place ) but because they would not , and so cast out themselves and their infants . certainly it is the joy of the formerly desolate gentiles , that they shall have many more children then she that had an husband , and not fewer , gal. . , , . and we as isaac are children of the promise , even that promise which extended to the infants with the parents . gal. . . answ. i have examined all that mr. b. saith in his answer to the th . question , and do profess that i finde no promise , no not in gen. . . of infants visible churchmembership , or any precept but that of circumcision , gen. . which mr. b. confesseth to be repealed in respect of the outward act , and for the dedicating of a childe to god by prayer to god to sanctifie it , or vow to bring it up for god if god give life , &c. or adjuration that they should cleave to god left in writing , or any other way upon record , i still allow it , and so need prove no repeal . so that in truth i see no reason mr. b. should expect that i should perform his task , of proving a repeal of that which is not , but that he should make good the task i impose on him to prove such a law or ordinance of infants visible churchmembership by promise or precept unrepealed , which i expect to be done at latter lammas ; and to his confident speeches i reply . sure i am from luk. . . joh. . . that jesus christ came that many of the jewish church might be left or cast out of his church , from matth. . . and other places before alledged , that he intended to leave all infants out of his visible church since his comming in the flesh , though he were an infant head of the church , that though he died to gather together in one the children of god that were scattered abroad , joh. . . yet hee intended not to gather them into a visible church national comprehending infants , that he preached not to any infants , nor by his disciples baptised any of them , that it is false which mr. b. saith , that he would oft have gathered all jerusalem and judaea , even the national church that then was , unto himself as the true head , as his visible church , from matth. . . mark● ● . , . and the course he , john ba●tist , and the apostles followed , that he did intend a new frame of his church visible , where infants could have no place , that hierusalem which is above , the covenant of the gospel had more children in the gentile churches then the covenant of the law in the jewish church , though infants were not visible members in the christian church as they were in the jewish ; that the promise meant gal . . is not a pro●ise to a believer and his natural seed of visible church-membership , much less to every visible professour and his seed , but a promise of righteousness and blessing , and the spirit through the faith of jesus christ upon all them that believe , as is plain from gal. . , , , , , , , , , . but mr. b. hath yet more work for me . before i end , saith he , i shall be bo●d to put two or three questions to you out of your last letter . qu . did●o ●o nomine cease to be churchmembers , though they forsook not god ? ●nd so of the infants if they were sold in infancy ? if you affirm it , then prove it . if you deny it , then infants might bee churchmembers that we●e not of the commonwealth . answ. such servants and infants were members of the jewish commonwealth , as they were of the church , in right undoubtedly , in fact if they owned the jews god and moses laws , and submitted to the senate of elders , so far as they knew and could be permitted , if they did not , though they forsook not god , yet they were neither of the jewish church , nor commonwealth , as cornelius , acts th , was not of the jewish church or policy . none was of right of the jewish church , who was not of the commonwealth ; even then when they were violently held under a forraign power ( as when they were under the chaldean persian , greek and roman empires ) they did submit to both though with much reluctancy . qu. . if ( as you say ) it was on the jews rejection of christ that they were broken off from being gods people , were those thousands of jews that believed in christ so broken off , or not , who continued successively a famous church at hierusalem , which came to be a patriarchal seat . whether then were not the children of the disciples and all believing jewes churchmembers in infancy ? if no , then it was somewhat else then unbelief that broke them off . answ. the believing jews were not broken off from the people of god , but from the jewish people or church national which rejected christ : these believing jews continued a famous church after some time of publishing the gospel and the jews presecuting the faith , sepated from the jewish church , not having infants churchmembers , and they were broken off from the jewish church national not by unbelief , but by faith in christ to which they did adhere , and could not bee conjoyned to the jewish church without rejection of christ. mr. b. addes . if yea , then qu. . whether it be credible that he who came not to cast out jews , but to bring in gentiles , breaking down the partition wall , and making of two one church , would have such a linsey woolsy church of party colours , or several forms : so as that the church at hierusalem should have infant members , and the church at rome should have none . jews infants should be members and not gentiles . answ. christ came to cast out the unbelieving jews , not from the jewish church national , they continued still in it , but from the invisible church of true believers which was in that nation , to which was joyned the gentile church of true believers , which were all of one sort , whether at rome or hierusalem , to wit , all that had one spirit , one faith , one baptism ; not one infant in the visible church christian either at rome or hierusalem . qu. . if unbelief brake them , will not repentance graff them in ? and so should every repenting believing jews infants be churchmembers ? answ. faith and repentance will ingraff every penitent believer into the church invisible , the profession thereof will ingraff them into the visible church , but not their infants , though the believer bee a jew . qu ▪ . was not christs church before his incarnation spiritual , and gathered in a spiritual way ? answ. the invisible was , the visible jewish national was not . qu. . how prove you that it was a blemish to the old frame , that infants were members ? or that christs church then and now are of two frames in regard of the subjects age ? answ. i say not that it was a blemish , but that it was a more imperfect state of the church then in that and other re●ards . the later question is answered sect. , , . before . qu. . in what regard is the new frame better●d by casting out infants which were in the old ? answ. by leaving out infants and taking in onely believers , the church is more spiritual . qu. . whether any jew at age was a member of the old church without professing faith ( in the articles necessary to salvation ) repentance and obedience ? and wherein the supposed new call and frame doth in this differ from the old ; save onely that a more full and express revelation of christ , requireth a more full ex●ress faith ? answ. the former question is somewhat difficult , it being hard to determine what articl●s were necessary to salvation , which is a question so hard , that i should not be unwilling to learn of mr. b. this i can onely say , that i know not what profession each jew did make , or was to make . i find a confession injoyned deut. . and imprecation ch . . i finde idolaters , blasphemers , and some others adjudged to death , yet i finde not in the times of mal-administration of moses laws , that idolaters , and such great sinners were cast out of the church , but were members of it . the later is answered before often enough . mr. b. tels me . you may see the words near the end of your letter that occasion the . last questions , and towards the middle that occasioneth the first . as for your motion of my fully describing the priviledges of churchmembers , i shall add no more at this time to what is already elsewhere said of it . answ. i knew mr. b. so well , that i expected i should have questions enow , though i desired onely a few texts , it s his vain to multiply questions which might be omitted , and serve to weary the reader and respondent , and for advantage to himself to insult on his antagonist , though without cause . but how ill he deals with me in writing so many sheets about questions taken from my words , when i desired onely a line or two about his texts , and how ill he deals with me and the reader ▪ who will not distinctly shew me the priviledges of his visible church-membership , the denial of which he makes so hainous , and from which he argues so much , i leave to the considerable reader to judge . but mr. b. is yet more severe to me , after all my work in answering him , i must be corrected ere i be dismissed . sect . lxiii . mr. bs. ten calumniatory questions , and conclusion of his letter , are answered . and now ( saith he ) i have gone thus far with you , in an enquiry into the truth , i entreat you be not too much offended with me , if i conclude with a few applicatory questions to your self ▪ q. . is it not an undertaking as palpably absurd as most ever any learned sober divine in the world was guilty of , to maintain that [ infants were visible churchmembers not by any promise or precept , but by a transeunt fact , and that there was no law or ordinance determining it should be so , but onely a fact of god , which is a transeunt thing not repealable ? ] answ. i am resolved not to be angry with mr. bs. interrogatories he ministers to me , imagining he doth it like an ordinary in salutem animae , though i pitty him that takes so much on him as thus magisterially to censure what he does not , or will not understand , presuming perhaps he may take on him to determine as an irrefragable doctor , after so much magnifying of his writings by learned and unlearned ones . but to his question i answer negatively , and return it back to him : is it not an undertaking palpably absurd , to make visible churchmembership to be a right to a benefit by gods promise as the sole efficient , and anothers faith as the condition ? but , saith he , either by this fact you mean legislation and covenant making , or not : if you do : what a saying is it that infants were made churchmembers not by covenant , but by a covenant making , not by a law , but by a law making . if not : either you must say , that god makes duty without any law , and gives right to the benefit without any promise , or covenant-grant as the cause ; or else , that it is no benefit to have right to churchmembership , and no duty to enter into that relation , and to accept of that benefit , and to bee devoted to god. which ever of these wayes you chuse ( and one you must chuse , or change your opinion ) hath the world heard of any more unreasonable and ridiculous , or else more unbeseeming a divine , from a learned sober man of that profession ? pardon the high charge : let the indifferent ju●ge . answ. that i need chuse none of the wayes hee mentions , nor change my opinion , is amply shewed sect. . this high charge would have been le●t out had he more sobriety and humility . i look upon it and overlook it as ridiculous and contemptible , and go on . qu. . is it not a great disgrace to all your followers , that they will be led so far into such ways of schism , and be so confident that they are righter and wiser then others , and that by such unreasonable arguings and shifts as these , which one would think any man should laugh at that knows what a law , promise , or covenant is ? and do you not prove , that it is not because of the evidence of truth , but by your meer interest or confident words , these people are changed and held to your opinion ? do they know what [ a trans●unt fact is , that without law or covenant makes churchmembers ? ] i say , do they know this ? which no man that ever breathed till now , ner ever man will know again ? and do you not proclaim them men of d●stempered consciences , that dare go on in such a schism , on the encouragement of such fancies as were hatcht so long after their perversion , and never waking man i think did before so solemnly maintain . ] answ , ne saevi magne sacerdos . the followers of me in the point of baptism are not led by shifts , but the plain word of god , matth. . . mark . . acts . . & . . from which mr. bs. dream of a law or ordinance of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed , his conceit of infants discipleship mediate by the faith of the parent , is too silly a conceit to draw an intelligent man that will examine it , specially when they have so plain scripture proof for their warrant , as the institution of christ and practise of the apostles , which they follow without schism , endeavouring a reformation of that great corruption of infant baptism , which hath been very pernicious to the church of god. if any schism have been , a great cause hath been in mr. bs. virulent charges of the truth , as if it were a damnable errour accursed of god , and his followers violent opposition ( of which bewdley hath had sad experience ) of men for doing their duty in being baptized after profession of faith , and breaking bread together , though convinced by mt. bs. own arguing in his book of baptism , pag. . that it should be so . and if in this point they conceive themselves righter and wiser then others , they are not to be blamed , having the plain word of god as interpreted even by paedobaptists themselves , yea almost all commentaries , for their warrant . and truly though i delight not in recriminations , yet i may justly retort mr. bs. words . is it not a great disgrace to all mr. bs. followers , that they will be led so far into such ways of schism as mr. b. leads them into , who would have none to have pastoral charge with publick pay , that will not admit to the lords supper the baby sprinkled , that inveighs against baptism of believers now used as if it were murther and adultery , that represents them that deny infant baptism in the most odious way he can to the world , and is so confident that he is wiser and righter then others , and that by such unreasonable arguings and shifts as these , a law and ordinance of infants visible churchmembership by promise and precept unrepealed no where extant , a discipleship by the parents faith mediately without any learning of their own , which one would think any man should laugh at that knows what visible churchmembership , or discipleship is ? and doth he not prove , that it is not because of the evidence of truth , but by his meer interest or confident word● , the people of kederminster , bewdley , and elsewhere , are changed from the truth of the scripture made known to them , and held to his opinion ? do they know wh●t an ordinance or law of infants visible churchmembership and mediate discipleship is , which i find not any man vented afore mr. b. and doth he not proclaim them men of distempered consciences , that dare go on i● such a schism as mr. b. and with him many persons are brought into by him from me , and the baptized in bewdley and elsewhere , on the encouragement of such fancies as were hatcht so lately , and never waking man i think did before mr. b. so solemnly maintain ? qu. . is it not a desperate undertaking , and dare you adventure on it , to justifie all the world before christs incarnation except the jews , from the guilt of not dedicating their children to god , to take him to be their god , and themselves to be his people ? yea , to justifie all jews against this charge , that should neglect or refuse to engage their children to god in covenant as members of his church ? and doth not he that saith there is no law , say there is no transgression ? answ. he doth : but mr. b. should remember there is a law against bea●ing false witness against his neighbour , which he much urgeth against mr. eyre and others ; but himself is deeply guilty of it in his high charges , and particularly in this ▪ that i justifie all jews neglecting to engage their children to god in covenant as members of his church , and all the world not dedicating their children to god. let him prove either , if he can ; if not , let him tremble at his desperate undertaking to uphold his lie of infant churchmembership and baptism by such lies as these , and fear the fate of liars . what i hold , may be seen in that which goes before . qu. dare you yet justifie also at the bar of god , all the world since christs incarn●tion from the guilt of sin , in not dedicating their children to christ and entering them into his covenant as members of his church ? dare you maintain that all the world is sinlesse in this respect ? answ. i dare justifie the non-baptizing them , and am assured mr. b. cannot justifie the baptizing of infant children . qu. . have you well considered of the fruit of your way● apparent in england and ireland at this day ? or have you not seen enough to make you suspect and fear whether indeed god own your way or not ? and is it any wonder if posterity be left in controversie about the history of former times , when you can venture , even in these times when the persons are living in our company , to tell me that [ you think i am mis-informed that they are anabaptists , and you think that there are very few of them that were ever baptized , ] when of many that we know , and multitudes that we hear of , there are so few that were not before against infant baptism , and the se●kers first such , and when the quakers themselves commonly cry down infant baptism ; and it is one of the questions that they send to ●e , and others to answer , [ how we can prove it by express scripture without consequences , or else confess ou● selves false prophets . answ. my ways in opposing infant baptism , and endeavouring to restore believers baptism , are such ( setting aside my infirmities ) as upon conside●ation i find cause not to be ashamed of , but to rejoyce in , and conceive by many evidenc●s that god own● them . what fruit of them in england and ireland they have had , i do not very well know ; if they that are termed anabaptists do hold unjustifiable positions or practises , they are not the fruit of my ways , any more then the nicola●●ans , gnosticks , and others ways , were the fruits of the apostles preaching . my conscience beareth me witness , and so will the people where i have taught , the brethren with whom i have walked yea , i think some of my antagonists , with whom i have acted in the publick imployment of approving preachers , and perhaps the most eminent persons in england , that i have opposed the errours risen , and have sought reformation without separation , have joyned upon all occasions in the common cause with dissenters ; insomuch that i had hoped impudence it self would never have dared so to belie me , as to make schism , quakerism , and such like evils the fruit of my ways . if many rents and errours have sprung up by accident after my writings , they are no more to be charged on me , then antinomianism , swenekfieldianism , &c. were to be charged on luther ; or brownism , familism , &c. on the antiprelatists . what i wrote to mr. b. i think still , yea , mr. bs. own relations confirm me , they are not anabaptists , though they be against infant baptism . those very persons , or some of that society which sent to mr. b. ( if my intelligence do not deceive ) though they they were against infant baptism , yet neglected baptism when convinced of it as their duty , and they might have been baptized ; and as it was foretold them they were likely to be without the opportunity , so it came to pass , for they were after carried away with the delusion of the quakers . it is not my observation alone , but it is the authors conceit who wrote the book against them termed the quakers blazing star , who was carried away once by them , that the living above ordinances and as seekers hath been one of the chief ways which hath brought it in , god justly leaving them to be deluded by satan who would not submit to the way of gods ordinances ; and he adviseth persons , as to labour to be well grounded in faith and repentance , so to joyn in church communion ( of which he takes the churches of the baptized to be most right , and accordingly hath himself been joyned by baptism to them ) as the best preservative against it . for my part , i think mr. bs. and other ministers maintaining infant baptism do give most advantage and encouragement to them , both to inveigh against them as men that will not yeeld to truth , but teach a manifest errour , and therefore not to be heard ; and then mr. saltmarsh and others delusions about water baptism as now ceased , living in the spirit , expectation of it , no true ministry now without the spirit as the apostles had , and such like conceits driving them off from the churches of the baptized , they are caught by those emissaries from rome , and other agents of satan , with that divelish delusion , god justly suffering satan to delude them with lies , because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved , thes. . . so that i have as much cause to think quakerism the fruit of mr. bs. ways as of mine own . nor will it be any wonder if posterity be left in controversie about the history of former times , when such a one as mr. b. shall continue to load me with false accusations , with which i have many wayes shewed my self not chargeable ; and not onely he , but also mr. robert baillee in his dissuasives , mr. edwards in his gangrena's , and others shall in english and latine heap so many untruths on godly persons because dissenters , while they lived to shew the falsity of them . qu . have you felt the guilt which we too strongly fear you have incurred of the perverting of so many souls , opening them such a gap to schism , contempt of the ministry and apostacy , destroying a hopefull reformation that cost so dear : or weakening our hands in the work , and filling the adversaries mouths with scorn , enticing the jesuites and friars to seem your proselytes , and list themselves among you , as the hopefull party to befriend their cause , hardning thousands both of the papists and profane , and setling them again on their dr●gs , when many once began to shake ! o what a church might we have had , and were likely to have had ? had it not been for the separatists and you ? and what a lamentable confusion are we now brought into by these ? have these things toucht your heart . answ. how far these things have toucht my heart , i must give an account to god my judge , and not to mr. b. who with his fraternity i perceive would pass a heavy doom on mee , and scarce award me a place in earth or heaven : and no marvel , if i were so pernicious an instrument as he describes me . but may i not require mr. b. to shew me by what actions i have done any of these things ? is mr. b. allowed to accuse in generals , and not to instance in particulars ? may he without control accuse and not prove ? may he have liberty , as in a chancery bill hath been wont , to put in all he can imagine , whether true or false ? is not this the manner of quakers and scolds ? are my answers often made of no avail to clear my self , but that mr , b. will still be imputing that to me , which my writings and courses do absolve me from ? no marvel dr. owen said of him , appendix to his vindic evang. pag. . a man that doth not know him as i do , would by his writings take him to be immitis & immisericors , a very achilles , that will not pardon a man in his grave , but will take him up and cut him in a thousand pieces . i tell mr. b. plainly , it is not my doctrine but mr. bs. which perverts souls , i mean his doctrine of baptism and churchmembership , besides his other errours ; that neither my doctrine nor practise open a gap to schism , but tend to the contrary , unity of baptism being one of the bonds of christians , ephes. . . the restoring of which is the regular way to union ▪ mr. b. by his violent opposing it and the assertors of it , doth really open a gap to schism , i open no gap to contempt of the ministry , but they themselves do it by opposing truth , and other wayes , apostacy from christ or godliness is no fruit of my doing , but is rather caused by those that urge persons to renounce the right baptism and communion of the baptised , of which i fear mr. b. is guilty . a right reformation according to gods word , cannot be while infant baptism continues , in seeking to destroy it i promote reformation , mr. b. by maintaining it destroyes reformation , and by proposals shews his inclination to persecution , which if i hinder i rejoyce . i weaken not mr. bs. hands in preaching the gospel , but strengthen them , if i enervate his errour i am glad ; he hath most unbrotherlike endeavoured to weaken my hands , and to stop my mouth . i fill not adversaries mouths with scorn ▪ of him , but he hath thrown as much dirt as hee could on me , in his writings ▪ i entice not jesuites and friers , and if they creep in among those of our judgement , is it any more then jude v. . speaks of in his time ? can mr. b. say they are not among his party ? i harden no papists , but shew their bottome errour , nor prophane persons , but take the right way to undeceive them ; they that maintain their infant baptism , settle them on their dregs , i mean their carnal presumption ; by which they take themselves to bee christians without knowledge of christ. the church that was likely to have been mr. bs. way , may be discerned by the elders , by the scottish church , mr. bs. church at kederminster , the associated ministers in wocestershire and their churches . confusion is too great , for want of restoring christs order , more would be if mr. bs. way were imposed , and no small oppression on tender consciences and dissenting brethren . i may say , oh what a church might wee have had , if it had not been for mr. b. and other such violent paedobaptists as he is , opposing christs way . qu. . is [ a transeunt fact , making infants churchmembers without law , promise , or covenant ] a sufficient medium to encourage you to venture on all these horrid things , and run such hazards as you have done ? or is it possible that an humble sober man , and a tender conscience , durst make all this havock , and stand out in it , so many years considerately as you have done , and this upon such a palpably unreasonable pretence : when you should prove to us the revocation of infants churchmembership , to tell us that they ●ad it onely by a transeunt fact ? is this a safe ground to build so great a weight on ? sir , my conscience witnesseth , that it is not your reproach that is the end of speaking these unpleasing words to you , but some compassion on you ( do not scorn it ) and more on your poor followers ; and most on the church of god which you have so much injured and troubled . answ. i venture on no such horrid things , nor run such hazards as mr. b. imagines , nor is the transeunt fact that i build on , but christs institution matth. . . though that transeunt fact i assigne is sufficient for the purpose i alledge it , and i cross interrogate mr. b. is it possible that an humble sober man , and a tender conscience , should make such foul work as he hath done by his writings , upon such a p●lpably unreasonable pretence , as a law of infants visible churchmembership , by promise and precept unrepealed , no where extant , and a mediate discipleship hatch't in his brain ? my reproach is a small matter , did it not tend to darken the truth i should neglect it , nor should i have answered these questions so fully , had not these things been impar●ed to the preacher and others at bewdley , ere they came to my hands . though my reproach were not finis operantis , yet must it needs be finis operis . i thank mr. b. for his compassion on me and my followers , i have the like on him and his followers . i do not scorn his compassion , but pitty his prejudice and pertinacy . if i have injured and troubled the church my antagonists have compelled me , the lord knowes i had not a resolution to print , till the assembly neglected the matter , and determined against me and the truth unheard . that i have injured the church by printing i believe not , it is certain mr. b. hath extreamly injured me and the truth , and troubled the church of god , by printing his book of baptism . i should not have peace in my conscience did i not endeavour to detect his a●d other paedobaptists fallacies , which i crave liberty to do , and shall easily pass by personal reproaches . qu. . can you prove that ever there was one age , or church ( particular ) on earth since adam till about . years ago , that the anabaptists rose , wherein infants were not de facto taken for members of the church ? if you can do it : let 's hear your proof answ. i can , and for proof look back to sect. , , , . besides constantin , augustin , mentioned by mr. b. p . nazianzen , hierom , &c. unbaptized though of christian parents till adult . qu. . can you bring us proof of any one infant of true church-members , that was not rightfully a churchmember himself from the creation till christs dayes ? or from the creation till this day ? except the anabaptists , who reject the benefit ; whose case ( as i said before ) i will not presume to determine ? answ. i can , for proof look back to sect. , , , . qu. . seing that infants have been de facto churchmembers from the creation to this day ( as far as any records can lead us ) is it likely that the lord , and head and all-sufficient governour of his church , would have permitted his church till now to be actually made up of such subjects , as in regard of age he disallowed ? and suffer his church to be wrong framed till now ? or is it a reasonable , modest and lawful undertaking , to go about now in the end of the world to make god a new framed church , as to the age of the subjects ? and is it not more modest and safe , to live quietly in a church of that frame as all the saints in heaven lived in , till the other day , as a few anabaptists with vile and sinful means , and miserable success , did attempt an alteration ? answ. this question ariseth from these suppositions , . that infants have been de facto churchmembers from the creation to this day . . that all the saints in heaven lived in a church that had infants visible churchmembers till less then . years ago . . that the anabaptists in germany in less then . years attempted the alteration first of of leaving infants out of the visible church . . that they did it with vile and sinful meanes and miserable success . the first of these is not true , as is shewed in the fore-going sections , chiefly those in which the th . question of this letter of mr. b. is answered , the second is shewed to be false sect. . wherein it is proved the apostles lived in a church that had not infants . the third is false , for both christ altered it , and when the corruption of infant baptism had overspread the western churches , many besides the late anabaptists , as petrus de bruis and many other saints in heaven did alter it . the fourth is in part false , for i think the anabaptists so called , did not alter infant visible churchmembership with vile and sinful means , but some of them ( not all ) did by vile and sinful means seek to set up a temporal dominion of the saints ( as i fear some now called quinto-monarchians do ) which is not to be imputed to all that are of the same way in point of discipline and ordinances , and that though this thing of erecting a temporal dominion had miserable success , yet the restoring of baptism hath had success as other reformations , as of the waldenses , hussites , non-conformists and others , who though by clamours of preachers , and violence of princes , they have been for a time suppressed , yet a remnant have been preserved , who have in time revived , and we hope notwithstanding all the clamours , accusations , and practises , used to corrupt & suppress them , will spread & grow up through the blesing of god. and to mr. bs. questions i answer ▪ my aim is not to erect a new framed church to god , but to reduce it to the frame christ and his apostles left it in , though it were after some ages altered by the corruption of infant baptism , which had its original from the gross errour that by it gods grace was given , and otherwise the infants should perish . and though in that church , who were for infant baptism many were saints now in heaven , yet it is not safe to continue that errour , any more then to continue the errour of infant communion now by papists and protestants rejected , though it were many hundreds of yeares practised in the same churches . and sure i wonder if he condemn mee for seeking reformation of infant baptism , how mr. b. could justifie himself for not living quietly in the church of england , as it was under the prelates , though there were among them in that church saints now living in heaven , but seeking the reformation of discipline and ceremonies of humane invention , though greater troubles followed thereon , then i think hath followed this reformation i endeavour , and then i hope ever will. surely if the way i take , and propound , and prosecute were followed , the reformation would be easie and safe , and that it is not followed , will be laid to the charge of mr. b. and other paedobaptists as their sin , nor can all his or their wit bee able to cleer them from it , nor from the guilt of breaking their solemn covenant to endeavour the reformation of these churches according to gods word . hee concludes , sir pardon the weakness , and bear with the plainness and freeness of your faithful brother ( though not as is meet ) rich. baxter . may . . answ. i pray the lord to pardon mr. bs. violent and clamourou● , though i hope not wilful opposing of the truth , and i love him not the worse for his plain dealing , yet cannot patiently bear his falshoods , wherein he accuseth the truth and servants of the living god , and by shewing him his errours , and evil dealing , have endeavoured to acquit my self as his faithful brother , as was meet , however he hath been , or shall be towards me affected . he adds after , sir , if you have any thing of moment to say , in reply to these , which you have not yet in your writings brought forth , i shall bee willing to consider of it : but if you have not , i pray you tell me so in two words , and spare the rest of your pains ( as for me ) and trouble mee no more with matters of this nature . for truly i have no sufficient vacancy from greater works . yea , i am constrained to forbear much greater then these . r. b. after this , he tels me , that whereas i preached a sermon at bewdley , in which i refuted by many arguments infants visible churchmembership , i must be either mutable or hypocritical , if i deny such a law and ordinance which i took on me then to refute , and desires a copy of that sermon , that hee may shew the sad mistakes and vanity of those my arguments . to which i answer , . i refuted mr. bs. law of infants visible church-membership , as a thing pretended , not as a thing real , and so am neither mutable nor hypocritical , in denying such a law . . i have no delight in mr. bs. writings of this subject , unless there were more ingenuity and solidity in them , then i yet finde , and therefore am willing to gratifie him with no more of my manuscripts in this kinde . . as for the copy of my sermon he hath the matter of it with enlargement in the , , and . section of this book , which when he answers , fragili querens illidere dentem offendet solido . . what i had more to say then i have printed , he may perceive by my books , and however mr. b. conceives , yet i conceive that the reformation or confirmation of infant baptism , is a matter of as great moment as the things mr. b. is intentive on . however , hee might have answered my letter without any of this trouble hee hath put himself to : but sith hee chose this way , i have thought it necessary to make this reply , and so to go on to the examining the rest of his book , not yet examined by me at large , though there be little which is not answered in this and other parts before . sect . lxiiii. my answer in the dispute and sermon to the argument of mr. b. of baptism , part . ch . . about the non-repeal of infants churchmembership , because neither in justice nor mercy , is vindicated . plain scripture proof , &c. part . ch . . mr b. speaks thus . my first argument is this . if god have repealed this ordinance , and revoked this mercifull gift of infants churchmembership , then it is either in mercy , or in justice ; either for their good , or for their hurt . but he hath neither repealed it in mercy for their good , nor in justice for their hurt : therefore he hath not at all repealed it . i will hide nothing from you that mr. t. hath said against this argument , either in our publick dispute , or in his sermon . the sufficiency of the enumeration in the major proposition , he never offered to deny : nor indeed is there any ground to deny it . it must needs be for the good or hurt of infants that they are put out ; and so must needs be in mercy or justice , for god maketh not such great alterations in his church and laws , to no end , and of no moment , but in meer indifferency . answ. in the dispute at bewdley , jan. . . and the sermon shortly after , i did not understand mr. bs. opinion as i do now ; nor did afore the writing of his last letter , conceive of his law and ordinance of visible churchmembership what it was , and where it was to be found ; nor do i yet conceive clearly what the benefit and priviledge is to infants by their visible churchmembership which he asserts . and therefore if i gave not so clear an answer to this argument as were requisite , it is to be imputed partly to the unacquaintedness with it at that time , partly to mr. bs. artifice , who carried himself close in the dispute for indirect advantage , and still is unwilling to shew his mind fully , though desired by me in the letter before set down . what is his opinion about the law unrepealed , is considered before ; what he imagines are the priviledges and benefit of his infants visible churchmembers , seems to be intimated in these passages of his letter in the th . qu. set down here , sect . . when he saith , i suppose you will not deny that it was a benefit to be the covenanted people of god , to have the lord engaged to be their god , and to take them for his people , to be brought so near him , and to be separated from the common and unclean , from the world , and from the strangers to the covenant of promises , that live as without god in the world , and without hope . in another passage , set down sect. . to be a member of the church , is to be a member of a society taking god in christ to be their god , and taken by him for his special people . the act which makes each member is of the same nature with that which makes the society . the relation then essentially containeth . a right to the great benefits of gods soveraignty over men , christs headship , and that favour , protection , provision , and other blessings which are due from such a powerfull and gracious a soveraign to such subjects , and from such a head to his members : as also a right to my station in the body , and to the inseparable benefits thereof . which how false they are , is in part shewed above . he likewise expresseth the leaving infants out of the visible church christian , as if it were a casting out , excommunicating , by a punitive execution of a curse or law on them , ch . . part . of plain scripture proof , &c. wherein how he is mistaken is shewed above . these things being premised , i say , that if mr. b. understand by [ mercy ] remunerative mercy , and by [ justice ] punitive justice ( as he seems to do , ) i deny the major . and to his reasons i answer , . simply , and of it self , the non●visible churchmembership of infants imports neither hurt nor good to them : but by accident , in that their visible church-membership in the church of the hebrews obliged them to circumcision and the yoke of the law , so it imports hurt to them . . if it did import hurt or good to them , yet it might be neither by an act of remunerative mercy , nor punitive justice , that they are left out o● the church ; but by an act of meer soveraignty , as it is in election and reprobation , and in the disposing of the gospel where god pl●aseth . . god hath his ends in this alteration , as to shew his freeness , his intent to have his visible church more spiritual then the jewish , &c. though not to shew his remunerative mercy or avenging justice . . it is not in meer indifferency , but of moment to these ends that hee doth so . mr. b. proceeds thus . the minor i prove in both parts . that god hath not repealed this to their hurt in justice ▪ i prove thus : if god never revoke his mercies , nor repeal his ordinances in justice to the parties hurt , till they first break covenant with him , and so procure it by their own desert ▪ then he hath not in justice revoked this mercy to the hurt of those that never broke covenant with him : but it is certain that god never revoketh a mercy in justice to the hurt of any that never broke covenant with him ▪ therefore to such he hath not so revoked it . answ. gods revoking mercies in justice to the parties hurt , is sometimes without the particular persons breaking covenant with him , or his desert . are not the infants of adam deprived of life in justice to their hurt , without their breaking covenant with god , or their personal desert ? are not many infants and others deprived of the preaching of the gospel , who yet are descended from faithfull ancestors who never brake covenant with god , onely for that the nation of which they are a part , are over-run by barbarous people , they carried away captive , they and their children made slaves ? do not these things happen to the most godly saints ? doth not solomon tell us , eccles. . . that all things come alike to all ? doth not the apostle tell us , rom. . , . for the children being not yet born , neither having done any good or evil , that the purpose of god according to the cle●ion might stand , not of works , but of him that calleth , it was said to rebecca , the elder shall serve the younger ; as it 〈◊〉 written , jacob have i loved , but esau have i hated : whence v. . he infers , therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardeneth ? and again , rom. . . after he had considered the various ways of gods dealing with jews and gentiles , he thus concludes , o the depth of the riches both of the wisdome and knowledge of god! how unsearchable are his judgements , and his paths past finding out ! from whence , and from innumerable experiments of thousands of godly greeks whose children are taken from them and made turks , and others , i may safely deny the minor of mr. bs. argument , which he saith is certain , as being most certainly false , and like the arguing of the disciples , john . which christ refuted v. . concerning the man who was born blind . but mr. b. goes on to prove it thus . that this is a mercy , and of the covenant , is plain , deut. . , , . and frequently past denial . answ. that the visible churchmembership of infants in the jewish national church was a mercy , it s not denied ; but that it was such a mercy as mr. b. makes it above , to contain essentially a right to the great benefits of gods soveraignty over men , christs headship , and that favour , prote●tion , provision , and other blessings , which are due from so powerfull and gracious a soveraign to such subjects , and from such a head to his members , is neither true , nor proved from deut. . , , , . where the being a god to them doth not necessarily include all these benefits ; nor if it did , doth it ascribe them to their visible church-membership , but to their obedience to his laws , implied in the phrase that he may establish thee for a people to himself ; that is , saith piscator in his scholie on the place , that he may require worship from thee by obedience towards his precepts , and so may bind thee to himself : which sense the rest of moses his speech in that and the following chapter shew , and consequently they presuppose not onely their covenant with god , and their visible churchmembership but also their keeping the law so far as the blessings were legal , and their belief and obedience to the gospel so far as they are evangelical . . saith mr. b. that god doth not in justice revoke such to any but covenant breakers , i prove briefly thus . . from the mercifull nature and constant dealings of god , who never casteth off those that cast not off him . answ. . mr. b. doth most vainly intimate them to be cast off by god who are not visible churchmembers , which if true , it would prove that all infants dying in the womb are cast off by god , with many more , who are not visible churchmembers , and yet are blessed persons . . for gods mercifull nature , it doth not hinder but that god may cast off them who cast not off him , sith his mercifull nature doth not act as a natural agent , but as a free agent ; and he hath resolved us , exod. . . rom. . . i will have mercy on whom i will have mercy , i will have compassion on whom i will have compassion , even then when he proclaimed his name to be gracious and mercifull . . ●t is false , as hath been before proved , that the constant dealing● of god are such , as that he never casteth off those that cast not him off . . saith mr. b. from his truth and faithfulne●● ▪ for else we should make god the covenant breaker , and not man ; which is horrid blasphemy . answ. this argument indeed were good if god had made this covenant with men , that whoever of them believe in christ , their infant children should be churchmembers visible in his church jewish or catholick . but there was never such a covenant made by god , and therefore though he alters the frame of the church , so as to leave out infants of beleivers from being visible members , he breaks no covenant . . saith he , from the immutability and constancy of god : his gifts and calling are without repentance . answ. god is indeed immutable and constant in his being and promises , and his gifts of election , foreknowledge , effectual calling , meant rom. . . as v. , , , , , , shew , are without repentance , rom. . . rom. . . but the gift of visible churchmembership is not such , even according to mr. b. cain was a visible churchmember , yet cast off , with many more . many a believers child is in infancy taken from him and made a mahometan , so as that he never is a visible christian , and yet god is unchangeable , and his gifts meant rom. . . without repentance . . saith he , scripture frequently layeth all the cause of all evil of suffering upon mans sinning , mic. . . hos. . . answ. . he supposeth , but proveth not , that the non-visible churchmembership christian of infants is an evil of suffering , which i deny . . it is false that the scripture ever layeth all the cause of all the evil of suffering upon the mans sinning , who suffereth ; the contrary is manifest in the death of infants by adams sin , rom. . . . some sufferings our lord christ denies to be from the special sin of children or parents , john . , . the texts alledged prove not mr. bs. proposition ; the former proves onely the destruction of samaria and jerusalem to be for their idolatry , the other proves the same to have been the fate of israel for the same sin , but neither mr. bs. universal proposition . so that hitherto mr. b. hath proved nothing . he applies his unproved dictates thus . now you know there were many jews that did believe ▪ and did not forsake the covenant of god , even most of the apostles themselves , and many thousands more : now how then can th●se or their infants be put out of the church in justice to their hurt , who did not first break covenant with god ? answ. . god may in justice do it , because he is a soveraign lord who is no debtor to any , rom. . , , . . god may in justice do it for the parents sins some ages before , or the national sin of the jews in rejecting christ might be a just cause for god to break off all infants churchmembership , being onely a consequent of the taking the hebrew nation for his people , though some parents believed , in common punishments and changes the obedience of some few not exempting them and theirs from them ; as in the babylonish captivity , it happened for manasseh his sin , notwithstanding josiahs reformation , kings . . mr. b. goes ●n . i am brief in this , because mr. t. doth not deny it . but that which he answereth is , that [ it is in mercy for their good . ] i prove the contrary plainly thus . it can be no mercy to take away a mercy , except it be to give a greater in the stead of it : but here is no greater mercy given to infants in the stead of churchmembership ; therefore it can be no mercy to them that it be revoked . the major mr. t. doth not deny , and i will fully tell you all that he saith to the minor . . in his dispute he answered , that churchmembership of infants was revoked in mercy for their good ; and that they had a greater mercy in stead of it : and what do you think is that greater mercy ? why , it is christ come in the flesh . i confess it amazeth me to see the power of errour , how it can both at once bereave the understanding of ordinary light , and the conscience of tenderness ; or one of these at least . is it possible that the judgement of such a man as mr. t. can take this for a satisfactory answer , or his conscience give him leave to deny churchmembership to all infants in the world , and to raise a schisme in a poor distressed church ; and to charge their own bloud on the heads of his people that yeeld not to him , and all upon such lamentable grounds as these ? answ. . i deny that now which i did not deny in the dispute , neither understanding whereto mr. bs. argument tended , nor what his opinion was in the matter of his argument , nor having competent time to consider his words . . i was somewhat amazed at first reading at mr. bs. dealing with me who had so good an opinion of his godliness and tenderness of consciences , and his pretences of friendliness , that if a man had sworn to me , before he printed , that he would have thus abused and accused me so falsly , i should not have believed it . but i see no hopes of any justice from such an intemperate zelot for his opinion , nor any right understanding of me , or any thing i say or do , from one so prejudiced , superficial , in his consideration of things , yet peremptory , and rash in his determinations , as mr. b. is . suppose i had answered them as weakly as mr. b. imagines i did , yet a litt●e experience might have told him , that it might have commen from other causes then the power of errour , bereaving at once my understanding of ordinary light , and my conscience of tenderness . such censures , if there were no more , shew mr. b. was carried with intemperate heat in his writing , a thing which certainly corrupts a mans judgement , and ma●è verum examinat omnis corruptus judex . to his accusations i answer , it is false that i deny churchmembership to all the infants in the world , that i raise a schism in a poor distressed church , that i thretaen those that yeeld not to me and all upon the grounds he mentions , which yet are not lamentable any otherwise then because they are no better heeded . but to the argument . the major i shall consider anon ; the minor is that which is under present consideration , which i deny , and avow what i then answered , with this explication and amplification . infants visible churchmembership was onely in the hebrew nation . the end of god was in taking that nation to be his visible people , that there might be a fixed nation among whom and from whom christ should be born . to that end he would have them distinguished from other people by circumcision , by laws ▪ &c. he would have their tribes distinguished , their inheritances fixed , their genealogie certain ; this was the benefit of that nation , the honour and mercy to the infants and others , and god took it away after christs comming as being useless , it being to usher it in , i mean the whole ordering of the hebrew church-membership ; and it was a greater mercy to the church of god , and thereby to the infants , who had their churchmembership onely a mercy before by consequence as a part of that people , without any feeling or enjoyment of it till they came to riper age : and this was a greater mercy then their former membership , . in that they were freed from the yoke of the law ; . christ who was promised was a known person , and revealed and accomplished the will of god concerning the salvation of h●s people . let 's view mr. bs. refutation . . saith he . was it ever heard before from the mouth of man , that christ succeeded churchmembership , as a thing that was to give place for him ? doth christ cast any out of the church , onely that he may succeed them ? can he prove that their churchmembership was a type of christ , that must cease when he was come ? why doth he not prove it then from some scripture or reason ? cannot we have a room in the body without being cast out at the comming of the head ? are the head and members at such odds , that one must give place , and be gone when the other comes ? why then is not the churchmembership of men and women to give place to christs comming in the flesh ? sure the nature of churchmembership is the same in both . why did the apostles never speak of this among the types of christ that did cease , that all infants are put out of the church or family of god , that christ may succeed as a greater mercy to them then their room in his church and family ? is not here comfort ( but by a silly comforter ) to all the jewes themselves ? though they are broken off from the church , yet christ is a greater mercy to them in stead of it . answ. mr. b. keeps his wont of refuting me by frivolous questions and foolish scoffs , in stead of solid arguments . to them as they are , i return these answers . he himself ch . . saith , the dedication of the first●born was evidently a type of christ and the church under him , and yet he can give no more scripture or reason for it , then i can for this , that the churchmembership of infants was but to endure till christs comming in the flesh . to omit what i have already argued in the , , . sections before , in my apprehension the apostle doth plainly teach , gal. . . to the end , that the churchmembership that was by the descent by natural birth from abraham , continued onely till faith came , that is , till christ was exhibited , and believed on as already come in the flesh , that now all are children of god , abrahams seed by faith , that there is now no difference between jew and gentile , the jews natural birth brings not him in the church , nor the gentiles uncircumcision excludes him ; that so many as are admitted into the church by baptism do put on christ , and consequently the churchmembership by birth into the jewish church national now ceaseth , and there is no churchmembership , but by faith in christ. and this i might further confirm from gal. . . col. . , . & . . and to these scriptures i add this reason , the course that god took in severing the jewish nation from other people , circumcising the males , keeping the distinction of tribes , and the inheritances in the families , and the genealogies so exactly till christ came , ordering the tax of augustus at the time of christs birth , and after his ascension scattering the jews out of their land , overturning their commonwealth , confounding their pedigrees , taking to himself another church in another way , by preaching the gospel , and baptizing believers , and none else ; doth plainly evidence to me , that infants churchmembership was but an introduction , type , shadow , fore-runner to christs manifestation in the flesh , and to cease as john baptists office did when christ was exhibited and fully manifested to the world . and accordingly mr. bs. questions are answered ; the first , that it was heard of before , that upon the comming of christ believers church-membership was to succeed to birth-churchmembership : to the second , that though christ cast not any out of the church that he may succeed them , yet by his comming he alters churchmembership by birth into churchmembership by faith : the third and fourth are answered by setting down my apprehension , and the scriptures and reason of it . the fifth i answer affirmatively , the sixth negatively : the seventh , that men and women are not churchmembers now by birth any more then infants , and in that respect the nature of churchmembership is the same in both : to the eighth , the apostle did speak of it , in the places before cited : to the ninth , the silly comforter knows no reason why the jews broken off should be comforted ; but thinks it was matter of comfort to the believing jews , that in stead of infants visible churchmembership and their own standing in the national church jewish , they had christ manifested in the flesh as a greater mercy , the body in stead of the shadow , the sun risen in stead of the day-star . mr. b. goes on thus . but let us consider a little what is the church ? is it not the body of christ ? even all the church since adams fall , and the making of a new covenant is one body of christ : even the visible church is his visible body , as cor. . and many scriptures fully shew ; therefore even the branches not bearing fruit are said to be in him , that is , in his visible body , joh. . , , . now doth christ break off all infants from his body , that he may come in the flesh to be a greater mercy to them ? what 's that , but to be a greater mercy then himself , who is the life , and welfare of the body ? answ. the invisible church is all one body of christ ; the visible hath had such differences , that one part , to wit , those who feared god , and prayed continually , acts . yet had no communion with the other , but were counted unclean , and shunned because uncircumcised , acts ▪ , . the church of the circumcised , which was by natural birth , is now broken off upon christs comming ; and another church by faith of all nations is raised ; acts . , . in which infants are not till they believe ; who though they are of the invisible church or body of christ by election , and invisible operation of the spirit , yet are not of the visible till they profess faith in christ as already come in the flesh , who was the great mercy promised to abraham , joh. . . in which he rejoyced although a great part of his natural seed were broken off ▪ and this was a greater mercy then was before exhibited , although then christ was the life and welfare of the body . again , saith mr. b ▪ it seems by this , mr. t. thinks that excommunication is a great mercy : if all the jews infants had been excommunicate or cast out of the church by god himself , it were no more then christ did in mercy , never bringing them into any other church in stead . answ. nothing said by me gives any occasion to this imputation : excommunication , if just , i count a curse ; but the non taking of infants into the visible church christian hath nothing of a curse in it , it being onely an act of god according to his soveraignty , who had liberty to appoint who should be of his church , who not . against this strange fiction , saith mr. b. i argued thus : if ordinarily god shew not so great mercy to those out of the church as to those in it , then it is not a greater mercy , or for the parties greater good to be put out , then to be in : but ordinarily god sheweth not so great mercy to those out of the church as to those in it : therefore it is not for their greater good , nor in greater mercy ▪ to be put out . to this mr. t. answered nothing . answ. what need i , when i grant the conclusion ? mr. b. makes a strange fiction of his own , as if i thought excommunication , to be cast out or put out of the church , a great mercy ; and held infants were excommunicated , cast or put out of the church : which is far from me , or any thing i say , who do not ▪ assert them put out by any judicial sentence , but by a free act of gods soveraignty left out , for reasons best known to himself , but in part revealed to us . mr. b. adds . i argued also thus : ●f those that are out of the church since christ , have no such promise or assurance of mercy from him , as those in the church had before christ , then it is not to them a great mercy to be out of the church : but those out of the church since christ , have no such promise or assurance of mercy from him , as those in the church had before christ : therefore it cannot be to them a greater mercy . to this mr. t. answered , that it is a greater mercy to infants since christ to be out of the church , then before to be in it ; and that they have as much assurance of mercy from christ now , as then , ( he should say more . ) answ. this answer was right ; infants now are in a better case , though not visible christian churchmembers , then they were when in the jewish church , in which they were circumcised and obliged to moses law ; and they have as much assurance of mercy from christ , to wit , righteousness and life as then ; yea , more ( though i need not say so in contradiction to mr. bs. minor ) then before , sith christs exhibition in the flesh is a greater assurance of saving mercy then was before . to which , saith mr. b. i replied thus , if those infants which were in the church before christ , had god engaged in an oath and covenant to be their god , and to take them for his peculiar people , and those infants out of the church since christ have no such thing ; then they before christ in the church had more assurance of mercy then those out of the church since christ : but the former is true , as i proved out of deut. . , , . upon which text , what vain altercations there were , and what words were used against the express letter of the text , you shall see in the relation of the dispute , if ● be called to publish it . answ. for my part i shall not consent that mr. b. publish the relation of the dispute ▪ having found his dealing so injurious to me in that which he hath already done , and his partiality towards his opinion and party . i have looked over two such relations of the dispute as i could get , and i finde in them that i did deny the minor , and when mr. b. alledged deut. . , , . to prove it , i did distinguish of being god in respect of saving benefits , and thus god is engaged in covenant to be god to infants now no visible churchmembers as he was then , to wit to the elect onely , or in respect of outward advantages , such as were peculiar to the nation of the jews , as that they should possess canaan , have gods worship and presence with them in a more special manner then other people , christ to come out of that people , &c. as rom. . , . the apostle reckons them , and in this respect it was granted that infants in the church before christ had god so engaged , and that neither infants out of the church christian , no nor believers in it , no nor all believers afore christ , such as cornelius had god so engaged , and that in this respect the oath of god was meant , appeared from v. . which saith thus , that he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself , and that he may be unto thee a god as he hath said unto thee , and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers , to abraham , to isaac , and to jacob , which appears to be meant of their setling in canaan and their prosperous state there , as many places evince , where it is mentioned particularly gen. . . & . . & . . & . . & . . & . . & . , . deut. . , &c. besides many other passages in the same speech of moses , deut. . , , , , . deut. . , . , , , . and most evidently the conclusion of it deut. . . from which passages it is as evident as the light , that the meaning deut. . , , . was this , that god did bring into covenant by moses ( the chief standing for the rest ) the whole nation of israel , that they might for themselves and their posterity unborn binde them to observe the lawes of moses given in horeb , and thereby be established a people to god , and he might be a god to them in setling , keeping and prospering them in canaan , if they did obey . now mr. b. asserted that god did covenant with all the little ones and others there present , to be their god , and that in respect of spiritual benefits , and to that end , urged deut. . . which he made conditional , and to other then the elect . against which i urged , that [ to circumcise the heart ] is the same with writing gods lawes in the heart heb. . . which dr. twiss ▪ rightly concludes to be absolute and to the ●lect onely , and that to assert it to be conditional is pelagianism , and i desired the auditors to take notice of mr. bs. assertion in that thing : i confess i had not time to collect and to produce the texts here mentioned ( which was one reason why i was still averse from extemporary verbal disputes ) but this was the substance of that ●●●rcation which mr. b. cals vain , and saith , words were used against the express letter of the text . concerning which , although i will not undertake to justifie all i then said , yet the answer i then gave i stil avouch as right , and conceive mr. bs. assertion of circumcising the heart , to love the lord , to belong to other then the elect , and to be conditional to be very erroneous , and refer the reader to mr. bs. own words in answer to mr. bedford in the friendly accommodation pag. , . to discern the errour of it . mr. b. saith , i further add out of ephes. . . those that were aliens to the commonwealth of israel , were strangers to the covenant of promises , and without hope , and without god : and there is no scripture speaketh of delivering any from this sad state but churchmembers ; therefore sure it can be no mercy to be put out of the church . answ. though the conclusion were granted it hurts not me , who do not asserr the putting infants out of the church , who were in , but the not taking of them into the visible church christian. however the text speaks of the ephesians who were uncircumcised in the flesh v. . but doth not say that all that were uncircumcised , or aliens from the commonwealth of israel , were without god in the world . for it is certain that cornelius and many other proselytes uncircumcised , were not without god in the world , and therefore persons might then have christ , though not be visible churchmembers ; and if mr. b. say , that none but visible members in the christian church have christ , god , hope , he must damn all abortives and still born children of believers , and all those that are converted , ( and shew it not as dumb persons ) on their death-bed , or any other way , in articulo mortis . again , saith he , god added to the church such as should bee saved : therefore to be cast or put out of the church is no known way of mercy . answ. the conclusion is granted , and yet the text proves not that all who are added to the church shall be saved , or that all that shall be saved , are or shall be added to the church visible . again , saith hee , the church is the family of christ ( even the visible church is called the house of god tim. . . ) but it is no known way of mercy to be out of gods house and family . answ. i grant it , and yet a person may be in christs house , and a temple to him ▪ and not a visible churchmember . again , saith he , the church is the pillar and ground of truth ; therefore no mercy to be taken off it . answ. i grant it , yet doubt whether the church be termed so , tim. . . and not rather either the mystery of godliness v. . as cameron de eccles. c. de eccles. durati , & de eccl. const. or timothy as gataker cinni lib. . c. . again , saith mr. b. the church visible , is the visible body of christ ; but it is no mercy to be separated from christs body . answ. true , yet it may be a mercy in respect of the yoke of the law not to be in the visible church jewish , yea by accident it may be a mercy to be separated from a visible church christian as when the church is tyrannous in its rule , or unsound in the doctrine taught to it . again , saith he , the church visible is christs visible kingdome : but it is no mercy to be out of christs kingdome ; therefore it is no mercy to be out of the church . answ. the same which was made to the former objection is to this . lastly , saith mr. b. do but read all those hundred glorious things that are spoken of the city of god , all those high praises that are given to the jewish church , in deut. and the psalms , and all the scriptures ( who is like unto thee o israel , &c. ) and then read all the far more glorious things , that are spoken of the gospel church since christ : and if after this you can still believe , that god did in mercy cast infants out of one church and never take them into the other , and that christ came in the flesh to put them out of the church in mercy , as if he could fi●lier save them out of his church then in it ; i say , if after reading the foresaid passages ▪ you can believe this , for my part i give you up as forlorn , and look upon your understandings in this as forsaken by god , and not onely void of spiritual illumination , but common reason : and pray the lord to save the understandings of all his people from such a plague , and to rescue yours before you go further . answ. i say not that god did in mercy cast infants out of one church , nor that christ came in the flesh to put them out of the church in mercy , as if he could fitlier save them out of his church then in it ; but that god never took them into his visible church christian , and that christs comming in the flesh is a mercy recompensing the visible churchmembership jewish by birth , when god bra●e off that people from the olive for their unbelief , and that christ can and doth as fitly save infants , though not in the visible church christian , as he did when they were in the visible church jewish , and yet fear not mr. bs. direful omen and sad despair of my understanding , but have as good hopes of mine and my followers understandings in this thing , as of mr. bs. and his followers , and leave it to the intelligent to judge , whether we are void not onely of spiritual illumination , but common reason . i have read what is said of israel , and yet think it a mercy now not to bee a vi●●ble churchmember in it , no not though it were now as it was in the best state under david , solomon , &c. and i conceive mr. b. hath read many hundreds of as glorious things spoken of moses law as of the church , and yet i think mr. b. counts it a mercy now not to be under it . i finde the glorious things spoken of the gospel church since christ , meant all or most of it , as it contains that part which is the invisible church of true believers or elect persons . and i judge god hath dealt mercifully with infants , if he put them into the invisible church , though hee put them not into the visible , if not , either their being in the visible benefits them not or aggravates their condemnation . mr. b. proceeds thus . but let us see what mr. t. answers to this in his sermon , which upon deliberation hee afterward preached to confute my arguments , and therefore ●anno● lay the blame upon his unpreparedness . and truly in my judgement he doth here plainly throw down his weapons , and give up the whole cause ( though not directly confessing his errour : he is not yet so happy : ) i were best give you his own words , lest i be thought to wrong him : they are these ; [ as for those petty reasons , if it be done , it must bee in mercy or judgement , i say in mercy in respect of the whole catholike church now christ being come , and wee ha●ing a more spiritual churchstate then they had ; their churchstate was more carnal and fleshly , and agreeable to their time of minority : it is in mercy that it is taken away . and as for that exception , it cannot be taken away in mercy , unless some priviledge be to them in stead of it ▪ we answer , it is in mercy to the whole church , though no priviledge be to them ] so far mr. ts. words . i confess i never heard a cause more plainly forsaken , except a man should say flatly , i have erred , or i recant ▪ . he much altereth the terms of my argument , as you may see by it before . the argument is thus ; it can be no mercy to any to have a mercy taken away from them , except it be to give a greater in its stead . but here is no greater mercy given to infants in stead of churchmembership ; therefore it can be no mercy to them , that it be revoked , or taken away . to call these [ petty reasons ] is the onely strength of mr. t. his answer . for i pray you mark . . hee never den●ed the major proposition [ that it can be no mercy to any to have a mercy taken from them , except they may have a greater in stead : ] he could not deny this with any shew of reason : for otherwise , if it be a mercy meerly to deprive the creature of mercy , then wee shall turn hell into heaven , and make it the greatest place of mercies , because none are deprived of mercy so much as they , no nor of this particular mercy : for none are further removed from being members of the church then the damned . answ. it is true finding the boastings concerning mr. bs. dispute janu. . . to be many , after my return from leimster ( to which place i was then designed and where i was janu. . ) i did though without any copy of the disputation or arguments in writing ( which i could not obtain from mr. b. ) as well as my memory could bear them away , in the close of my afternoons sermon , jan. . at bewdley , recite and refute his arguments in the disputation . wherein it is true i was somewhat more deliberate then in the dispute , yet for want of the arguments in writing , i could not then give so full and exact an answer to his arguments as had been requisite , nor perhaps shall now to this , because mr. b. doth not plainly set down though requested by me , what that benefit , priviledge , or mercy is , which he conceives annexed to infants visible churchmembership unrepealed . but that either i throw down my weapons or forsake my cause by my answer then to this argument , is but mr. bs. dream . of what alteration there was of the terms of his argument he must bear the blame , who would not give me his arguments in writing under his own hand ; nor am i to be blamed for drawing it so short , being fearful to wrong him by a fuller reciting , and i perceive i had great cause so to do , when i finde mr. b. himself altering the terms of his own major in a few lines , in the former it is [ except it be to give a greater in its stead ] in the later [ except that they may have a greater in stead ] which are not the same . and for my answer ▪ if my terming his arguments [ petty reasonings ] had been mine onely answer , yet it had been a good and sufficient answer , if this be granted ( which i conceive an evident truth ) that of divine institution , ( and such is this of visible churchmembership ) there is no reason can be right but what is from gods own appointment , though it may seem right to us it should be so . papists argue that if god did not make one oecumenical bishop ( as there was one high priest among the jews ) to preserve unity , non satis discretu● esset , he should not be discreet enough . now this seems to our reason plausible , and yet we justly say , that in things positive our reason is deceivable , and gods appointment onely is to be attended . and so it is in this ; though this reason of mr. b. seem plausible , yet it were no forsaking the cause though i could not answer it any otherwise then thus , it is mr. bs. petty reasoning from his own conceits of what he imagines fi● in a matter of meer institution , concerning which it is nevertheless manifest from the history of the new testament , that god hath appointed otherwise then is gods way according to his reason ; which indeed is but arrogant presumption , when it prescribes to god. but i shall answer his argument more amply : and though i did not deny his major i● the dispute or sermon , i say , if it be understood o● a greater mercy in the same kind , and to the same persons , it is not true ; the believing jews were deprived of their possessions in judea in mercy , yet had not a greater me●cy in the same kind but another in the gifts of the spirit ; it was in mercy that the priests converted to the faith were deprived of their office in the temple , and their children of the portion of the offerings there , which were mercies to them , and yet no such office or portion provided for them and their children , but the benefit redound●d to the gentiles converted , whose conversion was prayed for by david , isaiah &c. and was a mercy to them , though their posterity might be broken off , and the national church dissolved . i conceive that gods ways are so free and various in this kind , that mr bs. ma●or cannot be universally true , not is mr. bs. reason cogent . for suppose god annihilate in mercy , there is no greater mercy given , yet hell is not turned into heaven , and made the greatest place of mercies , in this case there is a meer deprivation of mercy in mercy : but the thing is more apparent in deprivations of some temporal benefits . god may deprive in mercy , that is , not in judgement of some temporal benefit meerly because he will , out of his freedome to dispose of his own , yet give no greater mercy in stead of it then he should have had if that had not been taken away ; and that god doth not do so , who can say ? me thinks the apostles determination , rom. . . should satisfie that he doth . and yet hell should not be the greatest place of mercies , for there is not onely a privation of temporal , but also of spiritual and eternal mercies , and that too with accumulation of torments , which is otherwise in the case proposed . and for the particular mercy of church-membership , the infant visible jewish churchmembership was but a temporal mercy , and a comparative mercy in respect of the nations , it neither certainly assured their eternal , nor present welfare ; yea , when christ came , considering how the nation of the jews was against christ , it was then rather their danger then their mercy , and was a recompenced sufficiently in being out of that church , which consisted of a rebellious and gainsaying people ▪ and being , though not visible churchmembers in the christian society , yet in the families where the spirit of god was given , and christ known . mr. b. adds . . and observe next , that as mr t. denieth not the major , so here be plainly grants the minor , and so yeelds the whole cause . for the minor was , [ that here is no greater mercy given to infants in stead of churchmembership : ] doth not mr. t. acknowledge this ? when be saith twice over : . that it is a mercy to the whole catholick church ( to have their infants put out of the church : ) and so if the mercy be onely to the catholick church , that they be none of the church ( visible , ) then it is not to them a mercy : so that he taketh it to be a mercy onely to others , but none to them , according to this answer . . yea , he saith it more plainly the second time , that it is in mercy to the whole church , though no priviledge ( much less a greater mercy ) be to them ( to the infants themselves : ) so that for my part , i think i may well break off here , and take the whole cause as yeelded . for if it be no mercy to any to be deprived of mercy , except that they may have a greater : and if infants have no greater in stead of this , but onely their parents have a greater : and both these be confessed : then it must follow , that it is no mercy to infants to be deprived of this mercy of their churchmembership ; and consequently , god hath not taken it from them in mercy for their good ( which is the thing i am proving : ) and mr. t. yeeldeth that it is not taken from them in justice to their hurt : and therefore it is not taken from them at all . and thus you see what is become of the cause that hath been driven on with such confidence . answ. however i onely denied the minor in the dispute and sermon , yet mr. b. may see by the answer before , that here i deny his major in the first argument in this chapter , yea , and that he can prove that it is not in justice that the churchmembership visible jewish ceased , though i stil adhere to it , that it was in mercy ; and of this argument i have here denied the major , though i did not so before , and am ready to shew that i have not yeelded the minor , nor any whit of the cause , and therefore suppose mr. b. hath need to manage his weapons better ere he gain this cause ; yea ▪ though he should have this argument yeelded , yet the cause is not gained , for the reason before given . but let us view his minor , and my answer . his minor is [ that here is no greater mercy given to infants in stead of churchmembership , ] my answer was , that in mercy to the whole catholick church the jewish infant church-membership ceased , and therefore the infant visible churchmembership jewish in mercy ceased . to understand his minor , it is to be observed that mr. b. asserts . a law or ordinance of infants visible church-membership antecedent to that of circumcision . . that this is by promise and precept . . that this infant visible churchmembership essentially contains a right to gods soveraignty , christs headship , favour , protection , provision , and other blessings due from such a soveraign and head to his members . . that this belonged not onely to the infants of the jewish nation , but also of believers in all ages . . that this mercy belonged to the infants of the believers of the jewish nation when they were made christians , and so could not be in justice taken from them , though the nation of the jews were broken off for unbelief . . that in mercy it cannot be said to be taken away , without a greater mercy to the infants of believrs in stead of it . . that the comming of christ in the flesh , the extent of the church over the world through faith , the changing of churchmembership by birth into that by faith , and so making the church more spiritual , is not a greater mercy to the infants of jew believers in stead of that visible church-membership . . that without visible churchmembership in the christian church catholick , the infants of jew believers are in worse case then they were in the jewish church national . on the contrary , i deny . such a law or ordinance . . that the hebrew infant visible churchmembership was by promise and precept . . that this visible churchmembership contained essentially such a right as mr. b. asserts ; though it was a mercy in comparison of the state of other nations , yet thereto was annexed a heavy yoke of legal impositions , the deliverance from which was a mercy , and in this respect it was in mercy not continued to believers infants of the jewish nation . . that it belonged to any other infants then of the hebrew people . . i assert that when the jewish nation or hebrew people were broken off for unbelief in christ ; visible churchmembership of infants was in justice taken away from the whole people , and consequently from the infants of jew believers , who were onely visible churchmembers as a part of that nation , yet in mercy to them sith their visible churchmembership in that nation was dangerous to them , yea inconsistent with christianity , the jewish nation being a rebellious and gainsaying people : as it was a mercy for lot to be in sodom , and he was in justice to the place outed ; and yet in mercy to himself , when it was to be destroyed . . i assert , that it might be truly said that the infant jewish visible churchmembership may be said to be taken away in mercy ●rom the infants of believers of that nation , though no greater mercy were given to those particular infants of the same kind barely in stead of it . . i assert , that it cannot be said to be taken away in justice from infants of believing gentiles , sith it was never granted to any gentile nation to be gods visible church , nor were their infants visible churchmembers , except by proselytism they were incorporated into the jewish people . . i assert , that the not taking in of believing gentiles infants into the visible church christian was not an act judiciary of god as a judge , but gods free act of soveraignty changing churchmembership by birth into churchmembership by faith . . i assert , that the comming of christ in the flesh , and the consequents thereof , the breaking down the partition wall , taking in the gentiles by faith , &c. without taking in infants into the visible church christian , were greater me●cies then the jewish infant churchmembership ( which was clogged with legal burdens , and was an imperfect state ) and did abundantly countervail the jewish infant visible churchmembership in the best state of that , and did bring as much benefit to infants as that relation did . . that the infants of believing gentiles no members of the visible church christian are not in worse but be●ter condition , in respect of any real evangelical blessing , then the hebrew infants were with their churchmembership . . because the spiritual blessings of regeneration , in dwelling of the spirit ▪ justification , remission of sins , adoption , gods favour , protection , provision , eternal life , are as much assured to them in infancy without visible churchmembership , as they were with it . . they do actually enjoy sooner these mercies , if in the invisible church ( without which none ever enjoyed them ) and in more ample m●nner without jewish visible churchmembership , then they did with it , the spirit being now more powred out , the g●spel cleared , the ch●rch enl●rged , onely legal ceremonies , and rest in canaan wit● prosperity therein being taken away . mr. b. and the reader hereby may fully understand what i deny , and what i grant , and how i answer this his petty reasoning without yeelding the cause , and when he hath refuted these ass●rtions , le● him sing his triumph , and not as he vainly and insolently doth afore the victory . he adds . but yet let us follow it further . and . what means mr. t. to talk of mercy to others , when our question is , whether it be a mercy to themselves to be unchurched ? . ●y this arguing be may prove any thing almost in the world a mercy : for all shall work together for good to them that love god , rom. . . and therefore if i should ask him , whether it be in mercy to wicked men , that god giveth them over to themselves , and at last damneth them ▪ mr. t. may thus answer that it is ▪ for it is a mercy to the whole catholick church , that is , to other men : but what is this to the damned ? so mr. t. saith , it is a mercy to the whole catholicke church : but what is that to infants who are unchurched ? answ. . what i mean , he may if he please discern by what is here said , and in what sense infants may be said to be unchurched , and how it may be a mercy to them and others . . the damnation of themselves cannot be a mercy to wicked men when it is a benefit to the elect , because it never produceth them good : but the mercy to the catholick church is a mercy to believers infants , . in that it frees them from legal burthens ; . in that there is a near capacity and probability of the best good for them remaining in their parents or others godly families . he adds . and what a strange reason is that of mr. t. to say , it is a mercy , because their churchstate was carnal ▪ fleshly and agreeable to their minority ; but ours is spiritual . ] what is this to them that are put out of that carnal churchstate , and kept out of this spiritual churchstate too ? if they had been admitted into this better state ( as no doubt they are ) then he had said somewhat . else is not this as great a mercy to the poor off cast jews ? they are put out of the carnal churchstate too . but did god give so many admirable elogies of the jews church ; and can mr. t. yet think that it is better to be of no visible church , then to be of theirs ? answ. i alledge the more spiritual churchstate as one reason of gods changing of churchmembership by birth into churchmembership by faith , and as a mercy to the catholick church ; for thereby they are free from the bondage they were in under carnal ordinances , which infants are partakers of in actual possession , and capable of the spirit , though they be not actually visible churchmembers ; and therefore it is not true that by my doctrine they are kept out of the spiritual church-state . and mr. b. doth much mistake , as if the carnal churchstate the jew had when christ was come was a priviledge or benefit : for though many admirable elogies were given by god of the jews church , yet none of them were given of it in christs time , they were a rebebellious and gainsaying peo●le , a generation of vipers , denied the holy one , and the just , and desired a murtherer , made the temple a den of theeves , &c. and therefore i verily think it was better then to be of no visible church , then to be of theirs . as for the jews who believed not , they were justly put out of gods favour , their temple was destroyed , and they cast out of their land for denying christ : yet they were not put out of their carnal churchstate actually ; for they adhere to it unto this day , and it is their curse . . saith mr. b. and where did mr. t. learn in scripture to call the jews churchstate carnal ? answ. from cor. . . where the nation of the jews are called israel after the flesh , in contradistinct●on to the israel of god or in the spirit , rom. . . gal. . . from rom. . , . where there is distinction of the jew outwardly from the jew inwardly , of circumcision , which is outward in the flesh , from circumcision that is of the heart in the spirit , not in the letter . from gal. . , , , . where hierusalem that then was is contradistingued to hierusalem above , and the former is in bondage with her children , the later free , the children of the former born after the flesh , the later after the spirit . from gal. . . where to be of faith is to begin in the spirit , to be of the works of the law is to be perfect by the flesh . from ephes. . . where their circumcision is termed circumcision in the flesh made by hands . from philip. . , , . where hebrew discent , and churchmembership thereby are termed the flesh . from heb. . . where their ordinances are termed carnal ordinances . i had thought this had been so well known to mr. b. that it needed not proof . but he further demands , or what doth he mean by churchstate ? whether the essential nature of the church it self ? or any carnal ordinances of worship which were accidental to it ? is not this word [ churchstate ] like his former of [ church call ] devised terms to darken the matter with ambiguities , and signifying what pleaseth the speaker . answ. neither the term [ church state ] nor [ church call ] were devised by me , but are terms ordinary in the writings of divines . i have shewed the use of the later before , and proved that the church hath its denomination and definition from it , and that according to mr. b. himself : and for the former , me thinks mr. b. should not be ignorant of it , who its likely knows a book of learned dr. usher , intituled , de visibilis ecclesiae successient & statu . and to imagine it to be devised to darken the matter with ambiguities is one of mr. bs. evil surmises , when the word is as apposite for its use as any term i think mr. b. can give in stead of it ; and if it signifie what pleases the speaker , it is so much the better , for that is the use of words ; and this later accusation acquits it from darkening the matter with ambiguities , if it signifie ; for that which signifies the speakers mind doth give light , and not darken with ambiguities : so ridiculous is mr. bs. accusation , that his later words cross his former . and to help mr. bs. understanding if i can , i tell him i mean by it neither the essential nature of the church it self , nor any carnal ordinances of worship which were accidental to it ; but the manner of being or qualification incident to it from providence , whereby it is denominated flourishing or decaying , numerous or small , rich in knowledge or poor , carnal or spiritual by reason of the way of entry into it as natural descent or faith , more or less of the spirit , the promises , ministery , rites , &c. it hath . which term [ state ] comprehends innumerable terms , such as are rich and poor , noble or ignoble , fat or lean , and many more ; which whether they are to be reduced to the predicaments of quality , relation , or passion , or to be called modi entis i leave it to logicians to determine , i hope this will serve to indoctrinate mr. b. in the meaning of my speech . but mr. b. is resolved to follow me with more questions , which he must not expect i will answer , as i have done , after this bout . . saith he , and how long might i wait before mr. t. would prove from scripture , that it is a mercy to the whole catholick church to have all infants put out or unchurched ? these are the men that make their followers believe that we have no scripture for our cause , when themselves give us but their magiste●ial dictates . but i wonder whence he should fetch such a dream . what ? are infants such ●●ads or vipers in comparison of men of years , that it is a mercy to the whole catholicke church to have them cast out ? are not the aged worse then they ? and were we not once all infants ? answ. i say not that all infants are put out of the catholick church , and so need not prove it ; nor had i asserted it was it either in the dispute or sermon my work to prove what i said by way of answer , but for mr. b. to disprove it . yet what i assert is distinctly before set down , not without some proof from scripture ; and i may wait long afore either i shall finde his pretended ordinance of infant visible churchmembership unrepealed proved from scripture , or my assertions disproved by any solid arguments without idle questions , and vain exclamations , which i resolve to neglect . and of the former sort are the questions here , which insinuate as if i conceived it were a mercy to the catholick church that infants are not in the visible church christian as members , because they are toads , vipers , worse then the aged ; whereas i onely say , that the dissolving of the jewish church national ( in which and by reason of which infants were visible churchmembers , and no otherwise ) was in mercy to the catholick church : which is the very doctrine of the apostle , rom. . , . that through their fall salvation is come to the gentiles , the fall of them is the riches of the world , the diminishing , decay or loss of them the riches of the gentiles . which happened not through the wickedness of infants above other men ; but partly through the wickedness of the jewish people ( of which the infants were a part , and onely churchmembers there , and while that nation were gods church ; ) partly through gods contrivance , which was , that the gentiles should have their course of mercy while the jews were broken off , and at last both have mercy in their season . mr. b. goes on in his cavilling vein . if this doctrine be true , why may we not expect to be taught , that infants must also be cast out of heaven , in mercy to the whole catholick church ? answ. beca●se we find no such taught by the apostle as the other doctrine of mine concerning the mercy to the catholick church is by breaking off ●he jewish church . if i● be ( saith he ) no carnal churchstate to have infants in heaven , why is it a carnal churchstate which containeth infants in it on earth ? answ. that any are infants in heaven it s not likely . . if there should be , yet being fully sanctified , they should not be carnal , but spiritual , and the church there onely consist of spiritual persons by spiritual regeneration ; whereas if the church christian should consist of infant visible churchmembers by carnal generation , the state of it would be carnal as the jewish was , and not spiritual by faith , as the scripture makes it , joh. . , . & . , . gal. . , . again , saith mr. b. and if it be no benefit to the catholike church to have infants kept out of heaven , nor no hurt to the church to see them there ; why should it be a benefit to the whole church to have them kept on earth ? or any hurt to the church to see them here members ? answ. it were no hurt if god had so ordered it ; their non-visible christian churchmembership is a benefit to the catholike church in the manner before said , because god hath so ordered it . but yet ( saith mr. b. ) let us come a little nearer ; what ever it may be to enemies or to man-haters ( of which sort the church hath none ) yet me thinks to those that are love as god is love , and that are merciful as their heavenly fa●her is merciful , and who are bound to receive little children in christs name , and who are become as children themselves ; to such it should seem no such mercy to have all infants unchurched . but such are all true members of the church ; and therefore to the church it can be no such mercy . answ. i wish it were true that the visible church ( of which we are speaking ) hath no enemies or man-haters . it is not true that wee are bound to receive little children in christs name ; nor do i say that it is a mercy to have all infants unchurched ▪ or that they are all unchurched ; nor do i think it true th●t all true members of the church visible , are such as mr. b. describes . but this i say , the non-visible church-membership christian of infants is such a mercy as i describe , however it seem to the church . but yet nearer ; saith mr. b. whatsoever it may be to strangers , yet me thinks to the parents it should seem no such mercy to have their children put out of the church : hath god naturally planted such tender affections in parents to their children ? and doth grace increase it ? and the scripture encourage it ? and yet must they take it for a mercy , that their children are put out ? when mr. t. will not say it is a mercy to the children . answ. to the parents notwithstanding their natural affection , it is a mercy , and ought to seem a mercy , that god hath dissolved the jewish national visible churchmembership , and by consequent their infant visible churchmembership , and hath freed them and their infants from the legal bondage , and hath out of all nations gathered his church by preaching the gospel , without admission of infants into the visible church christian. and surely if this reason were good , parents might complain that their children are not admitted to the lords supper as the jews children were to the passeover . yet further , saith he , why then hath god made such promises to the parents for their seed ? as if much of the parents comfort lay in the welfare of the children ; if it be a mercy to them that they are kept out of the church ▪ may not this doctrine teach parents to give their children such a blessing as the jews did ? his bloud be on us and our children . for their curse is to be broken off from the church ; and if that be a mercy , the jews are then happier then i take them to be : and how can we then pray , that they may be graffed in again ? answ. i find no promises in all the new testament , much less evangelical promises , made to believing parents for their seed , nor any whit of the comforts of parents in the new testament in the welfare of their children , but in christ and in the fellowship of the spirit , phil. . . yea , whereas in the old testament most of the promises were of increase of children , their prosper●●y , rest and peace in their dwellings , &c. in the new testament an unmarried estate , if without sin , is rather preferred as more happy , cor . . and the poor and persecuted rather adj●dged blessed then the rich and those that live in p●ace , matth . , . however parents have as much comfort by my doctrine rightly understood , as they can have by mr. bs. nor doth it teach parents to curse their children as the jews did . the curse of the jews was not in being broken off from the jewish church national , but in being not in the olive , that is the church of true believers , but in the national church jewish ; and that they were not broken off from it , was their unhappiness : and we are to pray , not that they may be graffed in again into the national church jewish , but into the invisible church of true believers and elect persons . . saith mr. b. but what if all this were true ? suppose it were a mercy to the whole church to have infants put out ; yet it doth not follow that god would do it . he is the god of infants , as well as of the aged ; and is mercifull to them as well as others ; all souls are his : he can shew mercy to the whole church in an easier way then by casting out all their infants : and his mercy is over all his works . answ. god is the god of the spirits of all flesh , yet he hath not mercy on all flesh ; all souls are his , yet he did not take any one nation for his people besides the jewish ; his mercy is over all his works , yet he hath broken off the jews from being his people ; he is naturally mercifull , yet sheweth mercy freely as he will. i say not , he casteth out all infants of the church out of the church ; yet sure if it were supposed a mercy to the whole church to have infants put out , it seems to follow that god would do it , sith all things work for their good , and with his son he gives them all things , rom. . , . cor. . , . i will tell you , saith mr. b. how mr. t. followeth this with examples . he saith , [ that the release of the jews servants , and the consecration of the nazarites and first born , and the land of canaan , were all priviledges , and yet these are taken away . ] to which i answer : there are abundance far greater given in their stead : and what is that then to those that have nothing in their stead ? besides , if mr. t. think that the mercy of churchmembership is of as low a nature as to be nazarites , or to have canaan , he is much mistaken . answ. not onely these , but other examples , as namely of the priests and levites children , who were by inheritance to attend at the tabernacle , and to be nourished by the offerings , and to be priests ; instead of which , ministers infants have now no particular mercy , they are not visibly in the order of priests , as the infants of aarons house were : of the poor , who had tythes and corners of fields , and sheaves fallen , and other provision , and so had the stranger ; do shew , that a mercy was taken aw●y from infants of israel , and no particular mercy in the same or the like kind given to infants of christian people or ministers in their stead . when mr. b. sh●ws what those abundance for greater mercies are , which are given in the stead of the release of the hebrew servants even infants , the restoring their inheritances at the year of jubilee , the consecration of nazarites and first born even infants , the reckoning the children of the priests as heirs to the priesthood , provision for them ▪ the poor , the strangers ; it is likely the same he alledgeth will serve to sh●w how infants visible churchmembership is recompensed by the mercies now given to the whole church and them . nor do i think i am mistaken in counting the mercy of infants visible churchmembership to be of as low a nature as to be consecrated as nazarites , or ●he first born male which was to be presented to god , or to be reck●ned by discent priests ; but am sure mr. b. doth over-value the jew●sh infant visible churchmembership , and thereby misleads himself and others : and therefore i desired him in my letter to set down distinctly what was the benefit and priviledge of infant visible church-membership which he asserted ; the refusal whereof ( when he desired to have a copy of my sermon , that he might ( as his fashion is ) cavil , rather then answer it ) shews his unwillingness to have his tenet examined , that truth might appear . he adds . but he saith [ that it was a priviledge to the jews to be owned as gods people distinct from the rest of the world , while others were passed by , yet this is repealed in mercy to us gentiles . ] answ. in my distinctions before you may find this answered . . then it was no mercy to the jews you think , but to us gentiles : but our question is , whether it be a mercy to the unchurched infants ? . the jews being a church and people of god , was a mercy ; and this god took not from any of them , but those that cast it away : but the restraction of this to them , and the exclu●●on of the gentiles , was no mercy to them , and this onely ( with the ceremonial accidents ) did god take away by the charge of his laws . it would have been rather an ad●i●ion to the happiness of the believing jews , to have the gentiles taken in , by taking down the partition wall : and so it will be when the jews are graffed in again , and both made one body . why else doth the jewish church pray for her little sister that had no breasts ? and noah pray , that god would perswade japhet to dwell in the tents of sem ? though the restriction therefo●e and the exclusion ( which are no mercies to the jews ) be taken away , yet no mercy i● taken from them , but what is supplied with a far grea●er in christ : and though they partake not of these , yet that is because of their o●n unbelief , who reject it , and not because the new law doth exclude them : for god hath in his new law or covenant made a deed of gift of chri●● and all his benefits , to all that will receive him , whether jew or gentile , without excluding or excepting any . and for his denying to particular persons the grace of conversion , that is nothing to our present business , as belonging to decree , and not to any change in the laws : and it was denied to many before christ , and granted to many thousands jews since christ ; and shall be at last to far more . answ. the vanity of his distinctions is shewed before ; the repeal of the priviledge of the jews mentioned was in mercy to the jew believer , though chiefly to the gentiles , and the infants of both , but in justice to the jewish nation . the jews being a church and people of god , was a mercy , an● to be the onely nation that were gods people , was an agravation of it : and this god took away from believers , they were put out of the jewish church national , joh. . . it was a mercy that the jews were the onely nation god took for his people , and this god did take away , not by change of his laws , though that followed , but by his severity , r●m . . . breaking off that nation from the olive . it would have been a happiness to the believing jews , to have had the gentiles taken in without dissolving the national church jewish , if god had thought it good ; but he otherwise determining , it was a mercy to the catholick church , that they were dissolved . if no mercy be taken from them , but what is supplied with a far greater in christ ; then christ in the flesh is , instead of the jewish church national , and consequently of the infants visible churchmembership therein , a far greater mercy , which i said before , and mr. b. gainsaid . that in gods new covenant there 's no deed of gift of christ but to the elect , is proved before . mr. b. ends thus . and thus you have heard all that mr. t. upon deliberation hath said to this argument . and yet ( would any man think it ? ) he concludeth that [ that this abundant clear answer to all alledged from the visible churchmembership of the children of the jews . ] o never let my soul be tainted with this errour , which so strangely bereaves men of common ingenuity ! answ. let my answer and mr. bs. argument be compared , and the reader judge of our ingenuity . i for my part hope and pray that god will never leave me to be carried away with such frivolous reasonings as these of mr. b. are . sect . lxv . mr. bs. argum. from matth. . . revel . . . for infants visible churchmembership ch. , . are answered . i have answered mr. bs. th , th , th , th , th . chapters of the first part of his book of baptism in this review , part. . sect. , , , . i think it not needful as yet to make reply to the exceptions against my answers , and therefore go on to answer mr. bs. th . chapt. which begins thus . my th . arg. shall be drawn from matth. . , , . from whence i argue thus ; if christ were so tender over jerusalem that he would have gathered them as a hen gathereth her chickens , then surely he would not have put them or their infants out of the church ( or repealed the merciful gift and ordinance of their churchmembership . but christ was so tender of them , that he would have so gathered jerusalem , &c. therefore sure hee would not have unchurched their infants . the antecedent is the words of the lord jesus : the reason and strength of the consequence lieth here . . it is not some particular jews that christ would have gathered to himself ( and so into his church as accomplished with higher priviledges then before : ) but it was jerusalem , whole jerusalem ( which is usually put for all judea and the jewish nation ) now if jerusalem were gathered , then infants must needs be gathered . i know nothing of any moment that can be said against this ; but leave it to any tender conscience to judge , whether it be likely that christ should have unchurched all their infants , when he would have gathered to himself the whole nation , or whole jerusalem . if that contemptible answer should here bee again returned [ that christ would have gathered them onely into the invisible church ] i have answered it before ; they that are visibly or apparently gathered into the invisible church , are gathered also thereby into the visible : and if all jerusalem had been gathered , it had been doubtless a visible gathering : o that i could see as clear evidence for many other controverted truths , as i see in these words of the lord jesus , to convince me , that hee would have gathered all jerusalem into his visible church , and cons●quently not have unchurched all their infants : i should tremble to think of resisting so plain testimonies of god. if christs own words will not serve , i know not what will. if any say , that by jerusalem is meant onely the aged of jerusalem ; i answer : it is vain to call for scripture if they dare contradict it at pleasure ; or so make it speak onely what they list . it is not fully a nation or city without the infants . besides , jerusalem had inchurched infants when christ so spake ; therefore how could his words be otherwise understood by them , unless hee had excepted infants . . yet further , christ doth not in vain use the similitude of a hen gathering her chickens ; the hen gathereth the youngest most tenderly : yea how long will she sit the very egs ? now who dare expound thi● thus ? as a hen gathereth her young ones under her wings , so i would have gathered the aged of you , but none of your young ones visibly . . and doth not their leaving of their house desolate , mean the temple , and so the unchurching them , till they say , blessed i● hee that commeth in the name of the lord : and ●he● jerusalem ( and therefore infants ) shall bee inchurched again ? so christ jesus himself hath made me believe that he would have gathered all jerusalem , but unchurched none of them . answ. it is not christ jesus , but mr. bs. own shall●wness or prejudice that makes him believe that here is a●y thing for infants visible churchmembership . that jerusalem is usually put for all judea and the jewish nation , is more then i finde . but that by jerusalem and her children are not meant infants , is apparent from the text . . they are meant by jerusalem who killed and stoned them that were sent , but they were not infants , ergo. . becau●e the way whereby christ would have gathered jerusalem was by preaching the gospel to them , as is manifest . in that hee used no other way . . this was the way which he often attempted , which is implied in the phrase , how often would i ? . this is the way they refused , implied in the phrase [ and ye would not ] that is , yee would not obey my admonitions of repentance nor believe the gospel ; and so piscator annal ▪ loci saepissimè & benignissimè à me admoniti , non tamen obtemporare voluistis . . from vers . . . where the way by which hee would have gathered them , seems to bee by sending prophets , and wise men , and scribes or apostles luk. . . to them , which were not sent to infants . how oft would i have g●thered ? that is ( say some ) by the external ministery of the prophets sent unto thee , vers . , . trap● on matth. . . . the often attempt of gathering here , is the same with the visitation , or over sight luke . . as the agreement of the expressions and matter in both places compared e●idently shews , now that was by teaching , luke . , . and thus the new annot. of thy visitation ] as if he had said in thy visitation , in which god manifested himself in my person offering thee mercy . . thus protestant divines often expound it , answering arminians and others , inferring hence resistability of converting grace by mans free●will ; as diodati in his annot . on matth. . . expresseth their minde , wee must of necessity understand this to bee meant of the dispensation of outward means by the word ▪ exhortations , commandments , &c. now it cannot be said that christ would have this way gathered the infants of jerusalem , for hee had said he often by his own , and prophets and apostles preaching would or attempted to do it . but this he would nor nor attempted to do to infants , ergo , they are not meant under the term [ jerusalem . ] . this is proved also from the end of his gathering , which was , that they might bee his disciples , but hee never would or did gather any infants to him as his disciples , ergo. . it is proved also thus . those onely are meant by jerusalem , whom christ would have gathered but they would not : but this cannot be said of infants , that they would not , there was no nilling of conversion in them , ergo. . they are mea●t by jerusalem who are meant by the city luk. . . and there they are meant , who v. . might have known in that their day the things belonging to their peace , but then they were hid from their eyes . who knew not the time of their visitation , v. . but this is not meant of infants , ergo. in answer therefore to mr. bs. argument altering the termes [ put out , unchurch , which my doctrine doth not assert ] into [ repeal the ordinance of infants visible churchmembership ▪ or leave out of his visible church ] i deny the consequence of his major , and deny that which he alledgeth for proof of it , that by jerusalem is mean● all the people of jerusalem , even the infants . and to his wish , i return a wish ▪ o that i could see as clear evidence for many other controverted tru●hs , as i see in these words to convince me that christ means no● infants by those he would have gathered unto him , and though i would not have mr. b. of any man to turn quaker , yet i think he should rather tremble at the allegation of this text so impertinent to his purpose , and not understand by [ jerusalem ] synecdochically the persons of years . nor would this be any more to contradict the scripture at pleasure , or to make it speak onely what we list , then for him to understand by [ jerusalem ] synecdochically ( as he doth ) the jewish nation , or by [ jerusalem ] to understand metonymically the people , even the infants of the city . to make the interpreting of speeches by tropes a contradicting them , or making them speak what they list is such a ●oolery , as i should rather have imagined to have come from some woman or lay-preacher , then from a man of such magnified learning as mr. b. is , had i not found it printed in his book . as for what he saith , it is not fully a nation or city without infants , though it were true ( as it is not ) yet that proves not that infants are meant in every speech of a nation or city , any more then math. . . infants shall rise against infants , because nation shall rise against nation , or matt. . . infants were moved saying , who is this ? because the whole city was moved , saying , who is this ? and hereby it may he seen how easily christ might be understood without including infants , and so much the more easily , because though infants were in the jewish church , yet christ who spa●e not of gathering into the jews church , but to himself ( in whose visible church were no infants ) might be the more readily conceived to except infant● , yea if he had meant infants could not be well understood by them . and for his challenge , i answer , i dare thus expound his gathering , of gathering onely the aged into his visible church , if mr. b. imagine ( as he doth ) the similitude of a hen to be used in vain if infants be not meant , because the hen gathereth the youngest , by this reason christ should use the similitude in vain if he would gather any other then infants , sith the hen gathereth not hens and old cocks under her wings , but onely little chickens . me thinks by leaving their house desolate , mr. b. should not mean the unchurching them . for then it will follow , that all the jewish nation were unchurched ( for so he will have meant by jerusalem ) which will overthrow many of his conceits about making jewish and gentile churches one body , the same ▪ the church not broken off , &c. and prove afore he is aware the repeal of his pretended ordinance of infants visible churchmembership . but enough of the silly insipid arguings ( if i may use his language ) of this chapter , let 's see whether the next have any better . ch. . my th . arg . saith mr. b. is from rev. . . if the kingdoms of this world , either are or shal be the kingdoms of the lord and his christ ; then infants also must be members of his kingdom : ( and consequently the gift and ordinance for their churchmembership is not repealed . ) but the antecedent is the words of the text . what can be said against this that is sense or reason ? if they say , that by [ kingdoms ] is meant [ some part of the kingdoms ] excluding all infants : i say such men need not look into the scripture for their faith : they may make their own creed on these terms , let scripture say what it will : i know some places of scripture may be produced , where the word kingdom and jerusalem , &c. is taken for a part : but if wee must take words always improperly , because they are so taken sometime , then wee shall not know how to unde●stand any scripture , and humane language will become useless ; and by this any man may put by any testimony of scripture , though it were to prove the most fundamental truth : as the arrians put off all testimonies for the godhead of christ , because magistrates are called gods. but the circumstances of this text do evince to us , that christ speaketh properly of whole jerusalem and whole kingdoms , and not improperly of any part onely . . if they say , that [ by kingdom of christ ] is not meant the church of christ , they then speak against the constant phrase of the scripture ; which cals christs kingdom his church and conversim : christ is king and saviour of the same society . what is christs kingdom but his church ? i know the kingdome of christ is more large and more special : but here it cannot be meant of his kingdom in the larger sense , as he is de jure , onely king ( in regard of voluntary obedient subjects ) nor as hee over ruleth common societies and things : for so the kingdoms of the world were ever the kingdoms of the lord and his christ , and it could not be said that now they are become so . so that for any thing i can see , this text alone were sufficient to decide the controversie , whether infants must b●e church-members . answ. . i think this may bee said with sense and reason , yea and clear evidence out of the text , that by [ kingdoms of the world , kingdoms of our lord and his ch●ist , or as some copies have it , the kingdom of the world is become ] is not meant the men or members of either kingdoms , and so neither infant , nor adult persons , but the dominion , power , rule it self which the men of the world had usurped , chiefly antichrist , which was christs before of right , but not till then become his by actual ▪ full , and peaceable possession , his enemies or the chief of them being no● till then subdued , but tyranizing over his subjects . and though i confess the term connotes men over whom christ should have rule , yet the persons ov●r whom christ should rule then , were not onely the church , but also his enemies , whom he should subdue , and keep under , and judge , revel ▪ , . that by [ kingdome ] is meant rule , is manifest from many places , m●tth . . , . john . . heb. . . so revel . . , . and that this is the meaning here , seems to me to be manifest , . from that which is added , and he shall reign for ever and ever ; which being the consequent of the kingdome or kingdomes of the world becomming our lords and his christ , it shews , that the kingdomes note the rule or dominion whereby he reigns , not the persons over whom he reigns . . the same is confirmed from v. . where the same thing is expressed in those words , we give thee thanks , o lord god almighty , which art , and wast , and art to come , because thou hast taken to thee thy great power , and hast reigned : and wh●rein that is , is expressed v. , in judging all , rewarding his servants , destroying the corrupters of the earth . . from ch . . . where again the same or like thing is expressed thus , now is come salvation and strength or power and the kingdome of our god , and the power or authority of his christ ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down : where kingdome and power are put together , to shew , that by the kingdome is not meant the persons over whom the rule is , but the rule it self . . it is so to be understood where it is mentioned as i conceive in the sense meant revel . ● . . as namely cor. . . tim. . . and other places . . thus diodati in his annot. on revel . . . the kingdomes ] that is to say , now god reigneth with his son , and that absolutely having subdued all his enemies . cor. . . that i omit others . . this sense is the more confirmed , if it be read as some copies have it , the kingdome of this world is become . on the other side mr. bs. interpretation seems to me either not sense , or not true . for then it should be thus , all the kingdomes of the world , that is every person in the world , should be christs church , that is , a society of persons separated from the world to god , or called out of the world , &c. as he defines the church , of baptism , pag. . now can this be good sense to be all the world , the kingdomes of the world , and to be called or separated from or out of the world ? can all the world be separated from the world ! and there is no truth in this interpretation , sith it never was nor shall be , that the kingdomes of the world , that is , every person old and young in all the kingdomes of the world , shall become christs church . for then christ should have no enemies to remove out of his kingdome , contrary to the parable , matth. . . expounded v. . , , , . now if this be the sense , then it makes nothing for infants visible churchmembership , nor by [ kingdomes ] is all the members of a kingdome meant , and so infants , but both the consequence of mr. bs. major is justly denied , and the inference from the consequent of it . for if it be meant of christs rule ( as the texts shew ) though it connote the persons over whom the rule is , yet they are not thereby proved churchmembers ; for in the sense there meant , the rule or reign is over enemies as well as subjects : yea , if the reign were over subjects , and infants comprehended , yet sith the reign over them is onely invisible , this cannot prove infants visible churchmembers . nor are mr. bs. reasons of any force to prove that revel . . . by the kingdome of christ must be meant the church . for it is not true , that the constant phrase of scripture calls christs kingdome his church and conversim . for though i deny not that ●he church is termed the kingdome of christ , yet i deny this is the constant phrase of scripture to call the kingdome of christ the church , much less conversim . ●he places alledged before , with many more , do evince the contrary ; yea , there appear to me but few places wherein the church is termed the kingdome of christ. i am not yet fully resolved , that it is any where so meant , except in that matth. . . though i deny not the fitness of the expression . nor doth his reason hold , that here it cannot be meant of christs kingdome in the largest sense , as he over-ruleth common soci●ties and things ; for though it be true , that in some sort so the kingdomes of the world were ever his , that is , he did always so order them , that they passively did his will ; yet it is certain , that in the reign of antichrist the kingdomes of the world , that is , the rule which was exercised was not actively for god or christ , but as it is expresly said , revel . . ●hey worshipped the dragon who gave power to the beast , blasphemed god , made war with the saints , overcame them ; the beast had power over all kindreds and tongues and nations , so that all that dwelt on the earth should worship him , whose names were not written in the lambs book of life : and so they gave their kingdome to the beast , revel . . , , , . though they did gods will but after the lamb overcame them , v. . and the kingdomes of the world were his , when the kings did bate the whore , and make her des●lite , &c. so that this may well be expounded thus , the kingdomes of the world , that is , the rule which the kings of the world have exercised for the whore shall be so changed , that whether out of revenge of the mischiefs the whore hath done them , or out of love to christ , they shall hate her , and execute christs doom upon her , which was not always done . and it seems a piece of inconstancy in mr. b. who would not have the kingdomes of the world taken for a part in the forepart of this chapter , and yet denies it to be taken in the largest sense in the later part . and how the infant churchmembership of christians can be gathered from the terme , kingdomes of the world becomming christs , more then any others , i see not . but i proceed . . suppose it were granted , that by the kingdomes of christ were meant men , and the church of christ , revel . . . yet sure it is far more likely that by the kingdome of christ should be meant the invisible , then the visible church . for the invisible church either solely or chiefly is called the kingdome of christ , and he is stiled the king of saints , rev. . . and mr. b. saith here , christ is king and saviour of the same society . but in this sense i should grant the conclusion , that infants must be members of christs kingdome . and sure●y the visible church-members who are not true believers , have not christ to rule over them , but are enemies to christ , and satans subjects , and therefore not truly but putatively onely in christs kingdome , nor they any part of it . they are not children of the kingdome , matth. . . . but were it granted that revel . . . is meant the visible church , yet that therefore infants must bee a part of it , because they are a part of a kingdome follows not , for mr. b. saith , i know some places of scripture may be produced where the word kingdome and jerusalem , &c. is taken for a part . which is enough to shew that the argument is not good which he useth , for it must rest on this proposition , where jerusalem is mentioned there all jerusalem is meant , where kingdomes are mea●t whole kingdomes are meant , and therefore infants : which propositions are co●tradicted by mr. b. himself , and therefore it the whole controversie were referred to these two texts matth. . . rev. . . to decide , mr. bs. cause would be lost for want of proof , even from his own confession . nor doth mr. b. produce any thing to prove that by [ kingdoms revel . . . ) is meant the whole o● a kingdome even the infants , but onely prattles that which me thinks a learned man should be a●●amed of . for there is no colour of reason to charge them who expound [ kingdom ] by a synecdoche of the whole for a part , with making their own creed without scripture , taking words alwayes in an improper sense , making humane language useless , putting by any scripture such as are produced for christs godhead , when he himself saith it is sometimes in scripture so taken , and gives no proof of its being taken otherwise here . yea , by rejecting such exposition without rea●on mr. b. may be m●re truely said to make his own creed without scripture , to make the scripture unintelligible , humane language useless , to fortifie biddle a●d other deceivers , in their gross opinions of the anthropomorphites , and others , insomuch that i think if the arians were refuted no better then mr. b. doth here the expounding of kingdoms and jerusalem synecdochically , arianism would quickly prevail , and errours easily take , especially with schollers . . lastly , were it granted that by [ kingdoms ] were meant the visible church ; and that infants were a part of the kingdom thus meant , yet this very text , and that according to mr bs. own reasoning ▪ would prove the repeal o● their churchmembership till the accomplishment of the thing meant rev. . . which whether it be yet , or shall be till the day of judg●ment is very uncertain , for mr. b. here reasons thus , it cannot be meant of christs kingdom in the larger sense ▪ for so the kingdoms of the world were ever the kin●doms of the lord and his christ , and it could not be said that now they are become so in like ●anner i may say , if the visible churchmembership of infants were meant rev. . . then it was not so before the th . trumpet sounded ; for it is said , then the kingdoms of the world were become the kingdoms of christ , if they were then become they were not before , and consequently infants visible churchmembership not before . now when the th . trumpet sounded is uncertain ; mr. brightman makes it to begin at qu. elizabeths reign , the new annotations when antichrist is weakened , mr. mede at the imperial reign of christ in the great day of judgement , which v. , . do favour . and if infants be not visible churchmembers till then , when perhaps there shall be no infants at all , mr. b. will have but a very cold suit of it , if the deciding of the whole controversie , whethe● infants must be churchmembers , be referred to this text alone . but enough , if not too much of these ridiculous though confident allegations of mr. b. sect . lxvi . mr. bs. th , th , . arg. concerning infants better condition in the n. t. in his th , th , th , chapters part . . of bapt. to prove their visible churchmembership , are answered . chap. . saith mr. b. my th . arg . is this : if the beli●ving jews children ( and cons●quently the parents in point of comfort ) be not in a worse condition since christ , then they were before , then their children ought still to be churchmembers . ( and consequently the gift and ordinance is not repealed . ) but certainly the believing jewes children ( and consequently the parents in point of comfort ) are not in a worse condition since christ then they were before : therefore their children ought still to bee churchmembers . the antecedent i scarce take him for a christian that will deny . christ did not come to make believers or their children miserable , or to undo them , or to bring them into a worse condition . this were to make christ a destroyer , and not a saviour . hee that came not to destroy mens lives but to save them , came not destroy mens happiness but to recover them . he that would not accuse the adulterous woman , will not cast out all infants without accusation . . the consequence a man would think should be out of doubt : if it be not , i prove it thus : it is a far worse condition to be out of the visible church then to be in it : therefore if the believing jews children be cast out of the church then they are in a far worse condition then they were before : ( and so christ and faith should do them a mischief , which were blasphemy to imagine . ) answ. if mr. b. had set down , as i desired him in my letter , what the benefit , or priviledge is of infant visible churchmembership which he asserts unrepealed , and what infants lose by not being in the christian church visible , the reader with my self might have considered this argument more exactly : but till that be done , no man can exactly tell how to compare their former and later conditions wherein they are better or worse , nor how from the equall goodness of their condition their churchmembership is inferred . and for my part , i think such kind of arguings as these , to infer things that onely are by divine institution , are meer devices of mens wit , and mr. b. in using them ( as indeed they are his onely strength he hath in this point , for all the texts hee brings are quite from the matter , and some so manifestly impertinent , that a good text man would bee ashamed ever to produce them as hee doth ) doth but shew that he rests more on popular arguments which moves mens affections then scripture proofs , though most deceitfully like an impostor he entitle his book , plain scripture proof of infants churchmembership and baptism , when there is not a text that is plain for it , scarce any that hath any shew of it . but lest this argument be thought unanswerable , i shall examine it . a worse or a better condition are comparative terms , and as aristotle saith in his categ . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nothing is said to bee great or small by it self , but as compared with another , so nothing is better or worse by it self , but as compared with another . it is necessary then that we examine the estate of b●lieving jewes children before and since christs comming : the estate of the believing jewes children before christ , may be conceived to bee either in actual possessions or in promises . in actual possessions they had this priviledge , that they were a part of that nation which was then gods people , separated from other people by circumcision , lawes , temple , inheritance in canaan , priesthood , and the children of the priests had this priviledge , that the males were to succeed in the priesthood , and their children to be nourished of the tithes , offerings , first fruits , the poor by a tithe and other wayes . the promises were either of special priviledge , as that christ should come out of that nation , or of temporal blessings , as that while they kept gods laws they should dwell in canaan and prosper there , or of saving blessings . these did belong onely to some believing hebrews children , not to all , to isaac not to ishmael , to jacob not to esau , the rest were onely temporal benefits , and were accompanied with a yoke of lawes and rites intollerable . the children of believing jewes condition since christ , is either in respect of saving blessings , and so it is either the same which was before , or better in respect of the easier way of comming to the knowledge of christ , in respect of the temporals . so it is in some respect worse , they are liable more to persecution with their parents , in some respects better , in that they with th●ir parents a●e exempt from the legal bon●age , which they and their parents as pa●● of that nation o● visible church were obnoxious to . so that in some sense the antecedent or minor is granted , in some sense denied , without fear of forfeiting my christianity . and to mr. bs. proofs i answer , christ did come to make jew believers children in some respect , that is , of their temporal enjoyments in canaan miserable , or under persecution , and so in a worse condition , and yet he is thereby no destroyer of mans happiness , but a saviour of them , this worse condition working for their eternal good . nor is it any absurdity to say , he that would not accuse the adulterous woman , would leave out of his visible church christian all infants without accusation , sith this leaving out was onely an act of soveraignty as a rector , not of punitive justice as a judge . but the consequence is that which i denied before and now also , and to his proof i give the same answer , which he thus exagitates . can you imagine what shift is left against this plain truth ? i will tell you all that mr. t. could say ( before many thousand witnesses i think ) and that is this , he saith plainly , that it is a better condition to infants to be out of the church now , then in it then . which ● thought a christian could scarse have believed . . are all those glorious things spoken of the city of god , and is it now better to be out of any church then in it ? answ. it is no shift but a plain truth , which if there had been many more witnesses , i should sti●l avouch as part of my faith , and mee thinks if mr. b. be a chri●●ian , and not a jew , hee should believe it too . for were not the jews infan●s by their visible churchmembership bound to be circumcised , and to keep moses law ? was not thi● an heavie and intollerable yoke ? i● it not a mercy to be freed from it ? what real evangelical promise or blessing do infan●s of believing jews now lose , by not being christian visible churchmembers ? i challenge mr. b. to shew me any one particular real evangelical blessing , which doth not a● well come to an infant of a believer unbaptiz●d , or non-admitted to visible churchmembership as to the baptized , or admitted , or any true cause of discomfort to parents by my doctrine , which is not by his own . dare he say , that the promises of savi●g grace , or protection , or other blessings , are not belonging to them because unbaptized , not admitted visible churchmembers ? if he dare not , let him forbear to calumniate my doctrine as unchristian , and tragically to represent it as cruel , and uncomfortable to parents , and so not like a solid disputant or judicious divine cleer truth , but like an oratour raise passion without judgement , and end●avour to make me and that which is a plain truth odious , which course will at last redound to his shame , if it do not pierce his conscie●ce . i said not as mr. bs. question intimates , that it is now better to be out of any church then it , but that it is a better condition to infants to bee out of the church now , then to be in it then , meaning that nonvisible churchmembership to infants now is a better condition then visible churchmembership was to them then . and for that passage , that glorious things are spoken of the city of god , to prove the contrary it is ridiculously alledged ; for that speech is meant of jerusalem , or sion preferred before all the dwellings of jacob , psal. . , , . not of all the jewish church , and to it may be well opposed that of the apostle gal. . . hierusalem which is now in bondage with her children , which proves my position . mr. b. adds . . then the gentiles , pagans infants now , are happier then the jews were then ; for the pagans and their infants are out of the church ? answ. it follows not from my position , which was of christian believers infants with those promises and probabilities they have , and from thence followes not that pagans infants out of the church without those promises and probabilities christian believers infants have , are happier then the jews were then . but , saith he , i were best to argue it a little further . . if it be a better condition to be in that covenant with god wherein he bindeth himself to be their god , and taketh them to be his peculiar people , then to be out of that covenant , then it is a better condition to be in the church as it was then , then to be out of that and this too : but it is a better condition to be in the aforesaid covenant with god , then out of it : therefore it is better to be in the church as then to be in neither . the antecedent is undeniable ▪ the consequence is clear in these two conclusions ; . that the inchurched jews were then all in such a covenant with god : this i proved , deut. . , . what mr. t. vainly saith against the plain words of this text , you may see in the end . . there is to those that are now out of the church no such covenant assurance , or mercy answerable . if there be , let some body shew it : which i could never get mr. t. to do nay he seemeth to confess in his sermon , that infants now have no priviledge at all in stead of their churchmembership . answ. if the covenant be meant ( as i have proved before , sect . . it is ) of the covenant of the law concerning setling them in canaan if they kept the law of moses , then the antecedent is not undeniable ; but it is most true , that the condition of believers and their children now with the exhibition of christ , the promises and probabilities they have of saving knowledge of christ and salvation by him , is bet●er out of the aforesaid covenant with god then in it . but the consequence was also denied , because mr. b. means the covenant of grace : and if it be meant of the covenant of evangelical grace , neither of his conclusions are true ; nor is the former proved from deut. . , . for if it were true , that all that did stand there before the lord did enter into covenant , yet they were not therefore in the covenant wherein god bindeth himself to be their god. their entring into covenant was by their promise to obey god , which they might do , and yet not be in the covenant wherein god bindeth himself to be their god , si●h gods promise is not to them that enter into covenant , but to them that keep it ; yea , if it were that they were in that covenant , yet that covenant did not put any into a happy condition but those that kept gods laws , it being made conditionally , and so not all the inchurched jews were in that covenant wherein god bindeth himself to be their god. yea , if it were as mr. b. would have it , that the promise of being their god were meant of evangelical grace ; yet according to his doctrine it is upon condition of faith , and so it is either universal to all in or out of the church , or to none but those who are believers , who were not all the inchurched jews . nor is the second conclusion true ; there is the same covenant of evangelical grace made to infants who are now no visible churchmembers as was then , to the elect now as was then , to whom alone it was made then and now . and as for mercy answerable to visible churchmembership of infants , enough is said here , sect. . mr. b. adds . . i argue from rom. . . what advantage hath the jew , and what profit the circumcision ? much every way , &c. if the jew circumcised inchurched infants had much advantage every way , and thos● without the church have none ; then it is better be in their church then without the church : but the former is plain in the text ; therefore the later is certain . answ. the advantage the jew had , was when they were the people of god above them who were heathen infidels , not above christian believers : now it is true , that it was better to be in their church , then to be without the church , as heathen infidels and their children were , but this doth not prove what is to be proved , that the condition of jews infants in their church visible , is better then of christian believers infants now no visible churchmembers . nevertheless the speech of the apostle is not meant of jew infants ; for the instance he gives of committing to them the oracles of god , is not true of the infants ; and therefore it is denied , that mr. bs. antecedent is plain in the text in respect of the forepart of it : and it is false also , that the infants of christians , though not christian visible churchmembership , have no such advantage as the jews had ; for in this thing the advantage of the christians infant is more then of the jews , sith the scriptures being now more common and better cleared , they may sooner know them then the jews infants could . saith he , again from rom. . . i argue thus : if then to the iews pertained the adoption , the covenants , the promises , &c. but no such thing to them without the church ; then it is worse to be out of the church , then to be in it as they were : but the former is the words of the holy ghost ; therefore the consequent is certain . answ. the consequence is denied . for if this were true , it would as well prove it to have been a better condition to be in the visible church jewish then , then to be in the christian church visible now . for now those things expressed rom. . , . belong not to them who are in the visible church christian ; yea , it is now christ is come the benefit of the church to be freed from them , i mean some of them , as the services which were in sacrifices , &c. the glory which was the ark , the covenant , to wit , the tables of stone , the adoption which excluded the gentiles from being gods people ; and concerning the other three , the giving of the law , discent from the fathers , christs consanguinity , they are such as cannot be to any other , and are all recompensed abundantly by the comming of christ , the gift of the spirit , preaching of the gospel , without infants visible churchmembership . and therefore though there be no such thing as those things mentioned , rom. . , . to them that are out or in the visible church christian , yet there are better things to christians , which make their condition , and the●r infants not actually visible churchmembers , better then the jewish churchstate at the best . . saith he , if it be better to be in gods house and family then out , and in his visible kingdome then out ; then it is better to be in the church ( though but as the jews were ) then out : but the former is evident ; therefore the later . answ. it is true , it is better to be in gods house and family then out , and so infants may be though they be not in the christian church visible ; and though they be not in christs visible kingdome , yet they may be in his invisible , which is most truly his kingdome and house , and this estate is better then to be in the jewish church visible . but it was not better with infants by vertue of their visible churchmembership , then it is with believers infants without it , sith they are freed from the yoke of bondage the jews were under , and have equal portion , if not more of evangelical grace then they had , and therefore the consequence is denied . . saith mr. b. if it be better to be a sanctified peculiar people of god , then to be none such ( but an excluded common unclean people ; ) then it is better to be in the church ( though but as the jews were ) then out of the church : but the former is most certain ; therefore the l●ter . the consequence is plain , in that all the church , both jews and gentiles are properly a peculiar people separated or sanctified to god ; and so are they still called in the old testament and new : and therefore those without the church must needs be an excluded people ( even as election of some implieth passing by or rejecting of others ; ) and therefore are called common and unclean frequently . answ. this being understood of the visible church , it is false that those without the church visible must needs be an excluded people from god ; for then all abortives , and still-born children , persons dying without signs sensible of faith and repentance though before god believers , excommunicate persons should b● excluded from god. and as for mr. bs. proof , that the church are properly a peculiar people separated or sanctified to god , this cannot be true in reality ( which must make their condition better ) but onely of those who are of the invisible also , of which infants may be , though not of the visible ; of the rest it is true onely in appearance , which makes their condition not better in the church , but worse then of those without , sith the odiousness of their hypocrisie provokes god against them the more , though cloaked from men by their fair profession . . sai●h he ▪ if god do not usually bestow so many or greater mercies out of his church , as he doth in it ; then it is worse to be out of the church , then to be in it ( though but as the jews were : ) but certainly god useth not to bestow so many or greater mercies out of the church , as in it ; therefore it is worse to be out then in ( though but as the jews . ) answ. mr. b. should prove the minor ( which i deny ) that god doth not bestow usually so many or greater mercies to infants now not visible christian churchmembers , as he did to infants in the jewish church visible ; ( for so must his minor be , if his conclusion oppose my position : ) which sith he proves not , my denial is sufficient answer . . saith he , if christ have made larger promises to his church visible , then to any in the world that are not of the church , ( nay , if there be no special promise at all , nor scarce common , to any without the church , but the conditional , upon their comming in , ) then is it worse to be out of the church then to be so in it : but the former is true , therefore the later . answ. mr. b. brings no proof for his minor , and therefore it is enough for me to deny it , as being false concerning abortives , still-born , infant children elect , and others . . saith he , if christ have promised his presence to his church to the end of the world , and to walk among his golden can●lesticks , and take pleasure in her ; but not so to those without the church : then it is better being with●n ( though but as the jews ) then without . but the former is true ; therefore the latter . did i not resolve on brevi●y , it were easier to cite multitudes of texts for all these . answ. mr. b. should prove his minor , that christ hath promised these things to infants in the visible church jewish , and not to infants of believers , who are not visible churchmembers christian ; for which , though he talk of multitudes of texts , yet i shall not believe he hath any till he produce them . he adds . but upon this much i say to the contrary minded as joshua in another case , choose you of what society you will be of ; but as for me and my houshold , we will be of the church of god. answ. and so say i , if i can prevail with them , or for them . mr. b. adds , and had i children , i should be loth god should shut th●m out . answ. so s●y i. again mr. b. for without are dogs , extortioners , liars , &c. even christ calls the woman of canaan that was without , a dog ; though when he had admitted her into his church , she became a daughter . answ. the words , revel . . . without are dogs , the verse foregoing shews to be meant of being without the city where the blessed enter ; and it being compared with rev. . . thence appears , that they that are without are cast into the lake burning with fire and brimstone , which is the second death : which if he say ( as his words intimate ) of all that are not visible churchmembers , he pronounceth a bloudy sentence against millions that are in heaven , and must be a hundred times more uncomfortable to parents concerning their abortive still-born children , then any thing i ever held . and his abuse of christs words , matth. . . mark . is yet more gross , in alledging them after that , rev . . as if dogs , matth. . . were of the same sense with dogs in the other , whereas rev. . . it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and doth note such as rend them that give holy things to them , matth. . . but matth. . . mark . . it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , little dogs and doth not note persons so called from their profane , ●ischievous , impious behaviour , but in opposition to children , that is jews , such as were of g●●tile discent , and therefore accounted unclean and the application of them is as bad , as if the not ma●ing infants christian visible churchmembers , made them dogs in either sense : whereas to make the● dogs , as rev. . . is meant , is not onely to make them non-visible churchmembers , but also of most wicked manners and damned wretches ; and the term dogs , as used matth. . might be applied as well to visible church-members not jewish , such as cornelius , acts . . as to those out of it . nor doth it appear that our lord christ either admitted the woman of canaan into his church or termed her daughter ( as mr. bs. words intimate ) but woman after her manifestation of faith . so that mr. b. as his wont is , doth prophanely abuse the scripture , to make his adversaries tene● appear odious without cause . what he adds , i say therefore as peter whither shall we go , if we forsake the church ? it is good for us to be here : those that will needs think it better to be out of the church then in it , let them go ; they need no anathema , nor excommunication , seeing they think it such a mercy to bee without the church , i will not say of it as paul of his ship , except ye abide in it , ye cannot ●ee saved , and so i conclude , christ did not come to believers hurt , by unchurching their children , doth but shew his malignant disposition to spit as much venome as hee can against his antagonists and their doctrine , calumniating it as tending to forsaking the church , thinking it better to be out of the church then in it , thinking it a mercy to bee without the church , christ did come to believers hurt by unchurching their children , none of which followes from my tenet , but the charging of them on it shewing mr. bs. spightfulness towards mee , and the truth , which the lord forgive him . in the same vein of scribling , mr. b. proceeds thus ch . . my th . arg is this from heb. . . [ jesus is the mediator of a better covenant established on better promises . heb. . . and the author of a better testament . rom. . , , . where sin abounded grace much more abounded ephes. . , . that ye may comprehend the height , and breadth , and length , and depth , and know the love of christ which passeth knowledg ] with a hundred the like places ; from whence i argue thus , if the church of christ be not in a worse state now ( in regard of their childrens happiness and their parents comfort therein ) then it was before christs comming , then our children ought to bee churchmembers : ( and consequently that ordinance and merciful gift is not repealed . ) but all the said texts and many more shew that the church of christ is not in a worse condition now then it was then ( but unconceivably better : ) therefore our children ought to bee churchmembers , as well as theirs was then . i have before proved that it is worse to bee out of ehe church then in it ; and then nothing else can bee said against this argument that i know of . answ. that mr. b. hath not proved any thing he should have proved in contradiction to my tenet is before shewed . to the argument here made i answer , . by denying the syllog●sm to be right in form for want of putting in the minor , those words ( in regard of their childrens happiness and their parents com●ort therein ) and adding in the minor those words ( but unconceivably better ) which were not in the major , whereby the syllogis● is monstrous consisting of ●our or five terms . . letting that pass i deny the consequence of the major , and aver that though our infants be not visible churchmembers now , yet the church of christ is not in a worse state now ( in regard of their childrens happiness and their parents comforts therein ) then it was before christs com●ing , but unconceivably better , in regard of the comming of christ in the flesh , the gift of the spirit , the preaching of the gospel , &c. . that none of the texts speak any thing for mr. bs. purpose , but rather against it . in the first it is said the covenant of which christ is mediator is better then that of which moses or aaron were mediators , and that it is established on better promises , the former containing for the most part promises of ear●hly blessings in canaan , and that promise which was of righteousness , was upon the condition of keeping the law , without promise of the spirit ; now the new covenant promises righteousness , forgiveness of all sins through faith in christ , with a promise of the spirit . but these promises belong not to the church as it is visible , but as it contains the elect , of which sort infants may be though they be not visible churchmembers , there 's not a word of promise that the visible church shall consist of a whole nation , of all sorts of people in a nation infants and elder , much less shall consist of more sorts of people then were in the jewish church , but of more ample mercies spiritual to the elect , who were all of the invisible church though not of the visible , and among them infants , abortives , stil born chi●dren , which could not be of the visible ; and therefore to speak truth , parents have more comfort by this covenant both for themselves and children , in that it assures more ample grace , and that to more then visible members under the new testament . the same answer is to be given to heb. . . though ●he word be not as mr. b. here reads it [ author ] but [ surety . ] the next text speaks of the abounding of grace by christ beyond the evil of sin by adams transgression , nothing at all of the enlargement of the visible church since christs comming in respect of the sorts of members , over that which the visible church jewish had . yea such a position as it hath not the least footing in the text , so would it not stand with mr. bs. and other paedobap●ists doctrine , that the visible churchmembership is a priviledge of believers children : but in respect of extent of persons , it was better with the visible church then , sith it comprehended serva●ts , and the bought children of strangers . and for the last text , to imagine that the love of christ is every whit the less if infants be not visible churchmembers , is such a conceit as i judge a meer dotage . but there is more of it in that which follows . further , saith mr. b. i might prove it out of ephes. . . they that are out of the church are said to be strangers to the covenant , and without hope , and without god in the world , in comparison with those within the church . o how little then do they apprehend that height and depth ! &c. or know that love of christ that passeth knowledge , who think that christ will unchurch all the infants of believers now , that took them in so tenderly in the time of moses ? how insensible do they appear to be of the glorious riches of the gospel , and the free abundant grace of christ , who have such unworthy thoughts of him , as if he would put all our children out of his church ? how little know they the difference between christ and moses , that think they might then be churchmembers and not now ? and yet ( oh the blindness ▪ ) these men do this under pretence of magnifying the sperituality of the gospel priviledges ▪ as if to he a member of christs church were a carnal thing● ; or as if the visible church were not the object and recipient of spiritual as well as common mercies ! answ. the apostle doth not say they that are out of the church any more then they that are uncircumcised are without hope , without god , nor doth he speak comparatively but absolutely . nor doth he speak universally of all without the church , but particularly of the ephesians , nor of them as out of the church universal but jewish , nor this as they were merely negatively or privatively out for want of not taking on them the yoke of moses law , but as they walked after the course of the world v. , . so that these things are not said of them barely as non-visible churchmembers then in the jewish church as infants are now in the christian ( for then these things might have bin said of cornelius and his house as well as of them , who were uncircumcised , not in the commonwealth of israel ) but as they were idolaters , alienated from the life of god , and so were neither members of the church visible , nor invisible of true believers at that time . therefore to charge us with making the estate of infants of believers by our doctrine as the estate of those mentioned ephes. . . is a meer calumny tending to nothing else but indirectly to create prejudice in men against the truth . and of the same kinde is that which followes , which insinuates as if by denying infants visible churchmembership , we lessened christs love , were insensible of it , and the glorious riches of the gospel , made christ less tender now of infants of believers then in moses time , and had such unworthy thoughts of christ , as if he would put all our children out of his church , and knew not the difference between christ and moses , all which are meer flams and frivolous false accusations , fit to take with shallow paedobaptists , who are caught with flourishes of rhetorick rather then solid reason . and for that which hee censures as my blindness , i may rather admire his in not discerning it . for however to be a member of christs church may be more then a carnal thing , yet to bee a visible churchmember by natural discent without faith is but a carnal thing , and in this respect the church jewish was more carnal then the christian church , as the scriptures intimate , though they were the object and recipient of spiritual as well as common mercies . the rest that follows is in the same calumniating vein , for wee say as the apostle gal. . . that is , that the new covenant or gentile church hath more children then the jewish , in that there were more believers in the world on the preaching of the gospel as is said revel . . . th●n in the national church jewish , nor do wee , as mr. b. belies us , make all or any of the children of the new covenant or gentile church cast out , for t●ey onely are those who are by promise , born after the spirit , that is , true believers v. , . and not as ignorantly and fondly mr. b. imagines all the infant children of gentile believers . nor do wee by our doctrine contradict the apostles words heb. . . which are ridiculously applied to infants visible churchmembership . for the better thing provided for us in that which the believers afore christ received not , which is by some conceived to bee heaven , but generally protestant divines understand it of the exhibition of christ in the flesh , and the clear knowledge of him , which if true , proves what i av●r ▪ that ▪ christs exhibition in the flesh , the gift of the spirit , and the revelation of the gospel , and the taking in of the gentiles , are in stead of that visible churchmembership the jewes had , and all the priviledges annexed . however it cannot bee infants visible church-membership as mr. b. makes it , for that they had as mr. b. asserts , and therefore the denying of it by me , makes not us in so much worse a condition then they . nor do wee by denying infants visible churchmembership aver the partition wall taken down ephes. . . by christ to be in part standing , for the partition wa●l ●s clearly meant of the body of ceremonies , and necessitie of repairing to the temple and taking the yoke of moses law on them , which kept the gentiles from joyning with the jewes in the worship of the same god , which i keep not up in any sort , much less pluck up the wall of the church or vineyard it self , and as for our children to lay all waste to the wilderness , but mr. b. by maintaining a national church or visible church-membership by natural discent , doth keep up the partition wall in true construction , sith the way of pulling down the parti●ion wall by god , ha●h been by making all one body through faith , the succession of which in the place of circumcision and the jewish churchmembership , is the doctrine of the apostle gal. . and elsewhere , as is shewed before . mr. b. continues the same prattle ch. . thus . my . arg . is this , if the children of believers be now put out of the church , then they are in a worse condicion then the very children of the gentiles were before the comming of christ : but that were most absurd and false ; therefore so is the antecedent . the consequent would plainly follow , if the antecedent were true , as is evident thus : before christs comming any gentile in the world without exception , if hee would might have his children to be members of the visible church : but now ( according to mr. t. ) no gentile may have his child a member of the church ; therefore according to this doctrine , the very gentiles as well as the jews , are in a worse condition now : and christ should come to be a destroyer , and do hurt to all the world , ( which is most vile doctrine . ) that the gentiles might have their children church-members before , if they would come in themselves , is not denied nor indeed can bee : for it is the express letter of gods law , that any stranger that would come in might bring his children , and all bee circumcised and admitted members of the jews church : this was the case of any that would be full proselytes ; god in providence did deny to give the knowledge of his laws to the gentiles , as he did to the jews , but he excepted no man out of the mercy of his covenant , that would come in and take it ( except some few that were destinated to wrath for the height of their wickedness , whom he commanded them presently utterly to destroy . ) if any say that the gentiles were admitted with their infants into no church , but the particular church of the jews , i shall answer him . that it is false ; for they were admitted into the visible universal church , as i shall shew more fully afterward . . if it were so , yet the church of the jewes was a happy church of god , in a thousand fold better state , then those without . so that he that will be of the faith of our opposers , you see , must believe that christ hath come to deny the very gentiles that priviledge which for their children they had before . yea , that you may see it was not tied to the jews onely , or the seed of abraham , even when abrahams own family was circumcised , ( and as mr. t. thinks , then first admitted all into the church : ) there was but one of the seed of abraham circumcised at that time ( for he had no one but ishmael ) but of servants that were not of his seed , there were admitted or circumcised . trained men-servants that fought for him ▪ gen. . . and how many hundred women and children and all he had , you may conjecture . and all these were then of the church , and but one of abrahams seed , and that one ishmael therefore certainly though the greatest priviledges were reserved for isaac and his seed , of whom christ was to come , yet not the priviledge of sole churchmembership ; for the very children of abrahams servants were churchmembers ▪ and so i think this is plain enough . answ. it is most vile doctrine , to say , christ came to be a destroyer , and to do hurt to all the world ; and it is most vile doctrine which mr. b. insinuates , as if the denying of infants visible churchmembership did infer their destruction : which is most palpably false , sith neither were all churchmembers visible saved , as v. g. ishmael , esau ; nor all non-visible churchmembers damned , as v. g. abortives , still-borns . and therefore mr. b. by these insinuations discovers nothing but his own vitulency , and i can justly deny the consequence of his argument till he shew me what benefit the infants of believers now do lose by not being christian visible churchmembers which tends to their destruction , and what is the benefit of infant visible christian churchmembership which is for their salvation , which they have not though they be not visible churchmembers , i mean real and not meer putative benefit . for my part , . i think still that infants were not admitted into any visible church but the jews , and their being of the universal was onely in that they were of the jewish . . i think it is a benefit not to be of the church jewish , in which men were entred by circumcision , and bound to keep the law ; and that cornelius , and such other as were not full proselytes , were in as good a case as the full proselytes ; and that it is but vain talk of mr. b. that the church of the jews was a happy church of god , in a thousand fold better estate then those without onely as proselytes of the gate . . that though there were in the jewish church other then abrahams seed , yet they were all of the hebrew common-wealth . . that many of those churchmembers had no part in any of the promises made to abraham . and i think this argument of mr. b. takes onely with them who superficially look into the thing , as mr. b. hath done . sect . lxvii . mr. th . arg . ch . . part . of baptism , from deut. . , , . is answered , and my answers vindicated . ch. . he proceeds thus . my th . arg. is from the forementioned text , deut. . , , . where all the jews , with all their little ones were entred into covenant with god. from whence i argue thus . if the covenant which those infants who were then church-members were entred into with god was a covenant of grace ( or a gospel covenant ) then it is not repealed , ( and consequently their churchmembership is not repealed , as being built on the covenant , or inseparably conjunct : ) but the said covenant which the infants who were then churchmembers did pass into , was a covenant of grace , ( as distinct from the law , which was repealed ; ) therefore neither it nor their churchmembership is repealed . here i shall prove , . that all the infants did pass into this covenant . . that they were churchmembers that did so . . that it was such a covenant of grace . . and then it will follow that it is not repealed . answ. the argument from this text was urged very hotly by mr. b. in the dispute at bewdley , jan. . . but in another manner , as i gather from two copies of the dispute , which though imperfect , yet both agree , that the argument then was ●his , they who solemnly entred into covenant with god were visible churchmembers : but the infants of the jews in the wilderness uncircumcis●d did so , ergo. mr. b. himself in his corrective , sect . . the text in deut. . was brought to prove that god entred into covenant with infants to take them for his people , and to be their god , and consequently made them churchmembers . the form here used doth vary the conclusion , and the medium and particularly the term [ who solemnly entred into covenant with god ] into this [ were entred into covenant with god ] and in his correct . sect . . into this [ god entred into covenant with infants to take them for his people , and to be their god ] between which there is so great a difference , that as the argument was framed in the dispute , i should not deny the major ; but as there it is framed , i should deny the consequence , it being certain god may enter into covenant with some to take them for his people , and to be their god , who neither are nor ever shall be visible churchmembers ; as elect pe●sons dying with death-bed repentance not manifested ▪ &c. but i shall keep to the form as it is here used . and . i grant that the churchmembership of the infants which did pass into covenant , deut. . , , . is not repealed : for it being an individual accident can neither in congruous sense be said to be repealed , nor it being non●ens now is it capable of repeal if the speech were right . . i grant also that gods covenant of grace , or his gospel covenant is not repealed , that is , changed into another covenant . . i grant also that invisible churchmembership is built on the covenant of grace , or the gospel covenant , or is inseparably conjunct with it . but this i deny . that any law of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed is contained in deut. . , , . . that the mutual covenant entred into there was the gospel covenant of grace . . i say , that if it were , yet it follows not that infant visible churchmembership is not ceased , or in mr. bs. dialect repealed . but let us view mr. bs. proof . . saith he , mr. t. denied long together in the face of many thousand people , that the infants were entred into any such covenant , against the plain letter of the text : yet he persisted to deny it without any reason ( as you may see in the dispute , if out . ) if plain scripture will not satisfie these men , why then do they call for scripture ? the words are , ye stand this day all of you before the lord your god , your captains of your tribes , your officers , elders , and all the men of israel , your little ones , your wives , and the stranger that is in thy camp , from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water , that thou shouldest enter into covenant with the lord thy god , and into his oath which the lord thy god maketh with thee this day , that he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself , and that he may be to thee a god , &c. he that saith infants did not pass into this covenant , i question whether he believe this to be the word of god : for how should it be spoken plainer ? answ. the thing which i denied was , that infants did visibly and solemnly enter into covenant , which mr. b. affirmed , and i gave the reason , because they did by no visible sign declare their assent to the covenant : and when mr. b. replied , that the parents did it for them , i answered , the parents act for them might bind them , but yet it is not their act , nor that which makes a visible churchmember ; and sure had i conceived his minor so meant [ that the infants did by their parents visibly and solemnly enter into covenant ] i should have granted it , and denied his major [ they who visibly and solemnly entred into covenant with god by their parents act for them , were visible churchmembers ] now this answering of mine he endeavoured then and since to represent with as much disparagement as might b● to me , though what ever imperfection there were in my answer ( which i do not deprehend to have been such as mr. b. hath made it ) it was in a great part from mr. bs. ambiguous use of words , and his captious taking advantage from my words , and not explaining his own , which made me answer somewhat perplexedly . but the matter being now in print , let 's view the dispute as i● stands in the books . i had said in my sermon , and after in my antidote , sect . . that [ thou ] v. . doth not necessa●ily comprehend the little ones ▪ to this mr. b. in his correct . pag. . replies , . that he either sets a low value on my conscience , or judgement ; which is not worth answering , . do you not know , saith he , that [ thou ] is a collective term , usually through the books of moses spoken of all the people , except any be particularly excepted ? answ. i do know it is a collective term , ye● often used with exception of infants by the matter of the speech , though not p●rticularly . and for this i need go no further then deut. . , , , . deut. . , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , . and in some of these , v. . thou and thy children , v. . thine heart and the heart of thy seed , v. . thou and thy seed , deut. . . us and our children , are so expresly distinguished , that i am much confirmed that [ thou ] deut. . . doth not comprehe●d the little ones , v. . . saith he , are not little ones here named ? and yet are they excluded ? answ. t●ey are named , v. . yet not meant by [ thou ] v. . . saith he , why should moses say , here stand your children and wives , that not they but you might enter into covenant ? answ. . why should the strangers stand there , v. . and yet abraham , isaac , and jacob not their fathers ? v. . . i conceive god would have a general appearance for the more sol●mnity of the thing , but that some should act in the name of the whole people , and therefore men●ion of all , v. . yet the act of covenanting which was personal , v. . restrained onely to the representatives . . doth not mr. t. confess that the jews infants were in covenant ? why else were they circumcised , which is the seal of the covenant ? answ. . circumcision is no where called in scripture the seal of the covenant , and how far i allow it , may be seen sect . . . infants were circumcised , not because they were in covenant , those who were not in covenant were to be circumcised . . the jews infants were in the political or domestical covenant made to abraham , all of them upon condition of their obedience to the law , some of them in the covenant or promise of saving grace made to the elect , none of them in the covenant by their own personal act of covenanting or promising , which is that alone which i deny , and which makes visible churchmembers in the christian church . . saith mr. b. i desire no means to convince any man of your strange abuse of the text , but onely that he will read it . [ ye stand this day all of you , &c. and that he may be to thee a god ] he that can considerately believe mr. t. that the word [ thou ] v. . doth not necessari●y comprehend the little ones , if i knew him , i would tell him , that i will not undertake by scripture to convince him of any thing at all . and i say again in sobriety , that if the papists had as plain scripture for their religion as it differs from ours , i would not delay a week , but would turn papist , &c. answ. mr. bs. words onely express his confidence in his conceit , which in this and many more things i conceive to come from his hasty determinations , without weighing all objections to the contrary . but i desire both him and the reader to let me know what that entring into covenant is which may be termed the infants act , afore he censure my interpretation of [ thou ] as not comprehending little ones necessarily , but as noting some instead of the rest , as a strange abuse of the text ; sure it was no act of words or sign shewing any consent or assent to the covenant or oath of god : and if , as piscator conceives in his scholie , it were by passing through ( as the word in the hebrew is ) the ●arts of the divided living creatures in testimony of the covenant , i say again , surely neither little ones , nor all the rest did pass between the parts of the the beasts divided , but some in stead of the rest . i think they will not say , it was their bare presence which was the entring into covenant ; for their standing there was before it , and the entring into covenant a consequent of it . i do not accuse him , as he knows who hath done , of being a papist ; nor dare i absolve mr. b. from yeelding too much in some of his writings for papists , arminians , and socinians advantage , in s●eking to avoid antinomianism and anabaptism . but i hope both mr. b. and his reader will be more sober and wise then to go over to the papists upon this declaration of mr. b. who if he did not suggest to the people as if it were my impudence to deny it at the dispu●e , i was mistaken , and so were others , and i intreat him to pardon my mistake . but mr. b. adds . where he saith , that [ you ] v. . is distinguished from [ them that stand , &c. ] i answer : . i think not ; but from them that were absent : q. d. not with you onely , but ( both ) with him that is here ( that is you ) and him that is not here . answ. i find no interpreter who doth not render ●● v. . by the adve●sative , and the tigurine divines render it sed et but also , which sh●ws a plain distinction of [ you , v. . ] from him that standeth here with us this day before the lord our god ; and if i understand any thing in this kind , mr. bs. exposition is not good sense , to expound not with you onely , but with him that is here with us that is you . for v. ● . him that standeth here is opposed to you , v. . and you onely being an exclusive terme , must exclude the rest , and when it is said [ with us ] meaning himselfe , and [ you ] v. . it is meere non-sense to expound it thus , him that standeth with us , if us comprehend him that standet● there , as it doth according to mr. bs. exposition . besides , the different numbers of [ him that standeth here with us ] and [ you ] do shew that they are not the same . and i thinke i may say as mr. b. i desi●e no meanes to convince any man of mr. bs. strange exposition , but onely that hee will read the text. but he saith . . were it otherwise , yet it were onely from the people of other nations that stood among them . answ. . if mr. b. mean thy stranger which is in thy camp , v. . i expect some reason why [ you onely ] v. . should exclude them more then the little ones and wives ; rather me think● [ you onely ] should include those men●ioned v. . and him that standeth with us here this day should mean those v. . and the plain sense seems to be this , that though the captains , elders , officers , men of israel who were to enter into co●enant , did by themselves onely covenant , yet moses in gods stead did make that covenant and oath not onely with them , to whom his speech was directed , but also with the rest , v. ● . . if he mean the strangers not of that congregation or church of israel , surely the covenant was not made with them , as here moses saith it was with him that standeth here with us this day . mr. b. adds of me . where he saith [ some entred into covenant in behalf of the rest ] i answer : . god entred into covenant on his part immediately , or by moses the mediatour with them all , and not with some onely . answ. be it so , yet on the other part some entred into covenant in behalf of the rest , and so [ thou ] v. . comprehends not little ones , v. . for sure if in behalf of any some entred into covenant , and [ thou ] comprehend not them , them they were the little ones . . saith he , i doubt not but the parents entred their children into covenant , and not the infants themselves , which shews , that god hath given parents this interest and authority . answ. . this is a confession of what i aver , and of which mr. b. and his followers have made such exclamations against me . for if [ thou v. . ] entred themselves into covenant , and infants entred not themselves into covenant , then infants are not comprehended under [ thou , v. . ] but so it is . ergo. the consequence is plain of it self , the minor is for the first part the words of the text , unless mr. b. will say , that thou shouldest enter into covenant is not , that ●hou shouldest enter into covenant thy self , which is a gross absurdity ; and the other pa●t is mr. bs. own : and thus mr. b. hath justified me in that which he counted so strange an abuse of the text. . for my part , i doubt whether the parents entred the children into covenant , and do rather conceive that the captains , elders , officers , v. . did enter into covenant by some solemn act of passing between the parts of a beast divided , or otherwise in stead of the children , wives , and servants , v. . and not the parents for the infants , . because the distinct mention of those , v. . under the titles there used , do intimate that they were representatives of those v. . now v. persons are not expressed under the ti●le of parents , but under other relations : . because it being a national covenanting , it seems most suitable to the end of it , that it was done by national officers : . if there were any other then those persons , the solemnity could not be likely done with decency , the number being so great as could not hear moses , nor do such acts as might signifie the covenanting : . because it was so at other times , exod. . . josh. . , . which if true , this place proves not that god had given parents the interest and authority to covenant for their children : . the wives were parents as well as the husbands , but it is not probable that the wives did covenant for the children , therefore not the parents as parents , but under some other consideration . . saith mr. b. but that any other that had the use of reason should not enter their own consent is a fiction not to be admitted : and yet mr. t. in his confutation sermon , excludeth the wives from a personal covenanting , as well as the infants ; but barely on his own authority : nay , he saith , it was onely the captains and officers , though the covenant is made with the rest . answ. i have given my reasons for what i conceive , i impose them not on others , it is sufficient for present that i have vindicated my assertion so much inveighed against by mr. b. that [ thou ] v. . doth not necessarily comprehend infants . . saith mr. b. mr. t. denied in our dispute , that these infants were visible churchmembers ; for when hee had maintained that [ none were churchmembers but those that were circumcised ] and that [ churchmembership was not then without circumcision ] i told him , that the infants for . years in the wilderness were not circumcised , and yet were churchmembers , and proved it from this covenant ; yet did he resolutely deny it , that the infants were church - members : whereupon seeing he wasted time in wrangling , i was bold to say , i did verily believe that ( contrary to our first agreement ) he disputed against his own conscience , seeing he could not believe himself , that the infants then were no churchmembers , and that none but the circumcised were churchmembers : but he took it ill , that i should so charge him to go against conscience ; and yet when i told him , that women were churchmembers , though not ●ircumcised , he confessed all , and yeelded that the infants were so too . and indeed else god had no church , or almost none in the wilderness , when all but cal●b and joshua were dead of the old stock ; and all of forty years old were uncircumcised ; yet steven calls it the church in the wilderness , acts . . but i think it vain to prove that those were church-members that entred such a covenant . he that will deny this , is scarce to be disputed with . answ. i do confess there was much time wasted in the dispute , and that my answers were varied according to my several apprehensions of mr. bs. meaning , which by reason of his ambiguities and uncertain expressions i could not be assured of , nor would he be brought to explain any thing to me , but what i could force him to by distinction , which yet hee shifted off , that i might be still at a loss what to determine . first hee asserted a law of admitting infants visible churchmembers unrepealed , which i conceived was that of circumcision , and thereupon denied infants in the wilderness to have beene visible church-members , meaning solemnly admitted , in which sense i meant that churchmembership was not then without circumcision . but when hee denied , hee meant circ●mcision , i pressed him to tell what other law there was , which hee then did not , but went to prove them church-members , which i confessed , if not understood as so admitted , but as part of that people as the women were . secondly , when i found hee used not the term visible churchmembers as it is taken by protestant writers for those that professed the christian faith , i denied infants were churchmembers visible by the way which made them such in the christian church , though they were visible churchmembers according to the way of constitution of the jewish church , which was a commonwealth , of which all that were members were church-members . this is the true summe of what past between us in that time mr. b. speakes of , in which nothing was spoken against my conscience ( as hee unbrother like charged mee , ) and such altercation as was , was necessitated on my part by his averseness from explaining his meaning , which i instantly pressed him to , but still hee put by with one flirt or another at mee , that hee might drive mee to speake something , which hee might represent ( as hee still did ) in the most odious manner hee could to the auditors , which injurious way hath been that which hath confirmed his party , though thereby they are abused by him . for present i grant the infants deut. . . were then visible churchmembers , but not by that covenant . against this mr. b. in his correct . sect . . saith thus . . he saith , moses made that covenant with him that wa● not there that day , that is , their posterity not yet born ; shall it therefore be sai● , that they were visible members ? &c. ] i answer , . it is evident the covena●t spoke de praesenti to those that were : bu● de futuro onely of those that were not in being , but future : they that were not , could not bee members visible or invisible . as they had a being , so they had a membership ; that is in posse , & in futuritione , non i● esse . by vertue of this deed of gift they should be born churchmembers . if a landlord do by lease make over any land to you , and your childrens children , paying so much rent ; doth it follow that your children ( who are born ) are none of this mans tenants , because your childrens children ( who are unborn ) are not his tenants actually , but potentially ? or , if a king be set over us , and out children , and childrens children ( by compact , ) doth it follow , that our children in being are not his subjects in being because our childrens children in posse are not subjects in esse but in posse onely ? ah here is good arguing ! answ. i find moses speaking of gods covenant , but not the covenant speaking , nor is that expression good sense ; nor was the speech to any other then were there , though it was of what should be after , and that as well what should be after to them that were present , as to them that were to be after , v. . and i think it true , that they which were not could not be members visible , though if the invisible church be so from election , a● most protestant divines say , they might be members invisible . and it is true , that as they had a being so they had membership ( visible ) not in being but possibility and futuri●ion . but this is no answer to my reason but a strengthening of it . for whereas the the reason was this , that covenant doth not make actually visible churchmembers , which is made with them who are not actually visible churchmembers : but that covenant was made with them that were not actually visible churchmembers , for it was made with the unborn , who are confessed not to be actually visible churchmembers by mr. b. himself ; ergo. the major is plain from the rule in logick , the same as the same doth always the same . and for mr. bs. instances , it is true , that it follows not , the children born are not tenants or subjects actually because the unborn are not ; but it follows , the lease and compact of themselves do not make actually tenants or subjects , because if they did they would do so the unborn as well as the born ; so in this point , though the arguing be not good , the unborn are not actually visible churchmembers , therefore the born are not ; yet this ( which was my arguing ) was good , by the covenant which was made with the unborn they were not actually visible churchmembers , therefore by the same covenant of it self , without any other cause , neither were the born infants actually visible churchmembers ; and consequently mr. b. cannot from the making of this covenant prove the jewish infants actually visible churchmembers . to my saying , that an entring into covenant by parents doth not make a visible member in the christian church however ( not as mr. b prints it though ) it did in the jewish , he saith much in the compass of a few lines , all which is answered before in several sections , chiefly , , , . but he saith , . that this was a covenant of grace is all the question . to which i say , though it be a question between us , yet it is not all the question . for both in the dispute , and in all my writings , i denied that the covenant of grace doth make visible churchmembers ; and therefore mr. b. if he would have made good his argument , he should have proved that visible churchmembership and the covenant of grace are inseparably conjunct , which mr. b. failing to do , fails in proving the chief point of his argument . but let 's view what he saith , correct . pag. . you add , saith he , [ this proves not the covenant a pure gospel-covenant , not including peculiar benefits to the jewish nation . ] i answer , if by [ pure ] you mean that it is not onely a gospel covenant , but that and more , it yeeldeth as much as i need ; for if it be a gospel covenant , no matter though there be more . but if you mean , that it is not essentially a covenant of grace , i could heap up abund●nce of arguments against you ; you may find many in mr. ba●● of the covenant . i add : that covenant wherein god taketh them to be his people , and engageth himself to be their god , is a covenant of grace : ( for since the fall god entreth himself into no such covenant with any but in christ , and upon terms of grace . ) but such is this covenant made with the israelites and their little ones ; therefore this was a covenant of grace . answ. i mean by pure gospel covenant , that gospel covenant which was without mixture of domestick or political benefits proper to abrahams seed inheriting , which is set down heb. . , , . out of j●r . . . and i say , that though there is perhaps an evangelical promise or two intermixed in the enlargement of moses his discourse , yet deut. . , , . the oath or covenant there made was no● purely evangelical ▪ or essentially a gospel covenant , but a political , legal , national covenant , such as god doth not enter into now with all those to whom he vouchsafes gospel grace . and i prove it thus . . that covenant which contains promises of the land of canaan , the inheritance of it , and prosperity therein , is not essentially a gospel covenant , or a pure gospel covenant . but so doth that , deut. . , , . ergo. the major is manifest : for the gospel covenant doth no● promise those things . the minor is plain from the words [ as he hath sworn unto thy fathers abraham , isaac , and jacob. ] but that was a promise of canaan , as appears from gen. . . & . . & . . & . . & . . & . . & . , . deut. . . and many passages in moses his speech , deut. . , , , , . deut. . , , , , . . and most evidently the conclusion of it , deut. ▪ . & . . . the covenant and oath made then , was the same which was said to them before ; deut. . . but that was the covenant of the law in horeb , deut. . . now that was not essentially the covenant of grace , as is proved before , sect . . . that oath and covenant which was of being god to them upon condition of their obedience to his laws given by moses , that is not a pure gospel covenant , but a legal , rom. . . gal. . . but such is this , deut. . , . & . , , , , , . where the judicial and ●eremonial are meant as well as the moral . . that oath and cov●nant which had the legal threatnings annexed to it , was not a pure gospel covenant , or essenti●lly the covenant of grace , gal. . . bu● such was this , as appears from deut. . , , . & . , . ergo. what mr. ball hath written to prove mr. bs. position , i omit , . because mr. b. hath not set down the place . . because i conceive mr. b. hath produ●ed the chief . to the first , i answer by denying the major , and the proof of it ; and aver , that since the fall god did enter into a covenant with the jews which was not in christ upon terms of gospel grace . the minor is true , but god covenanted to be their god upon condition of their obedience to the law of moses , as the words deut. ● . . imply , that he may establish thee to day for a people to himself by keeping the laws according to the covenant they entred into . he adds . . that covenant wherein the lord promiseth to circumcise their hearts , and the hearts of their seed to love the lord their god with all their heart , and with all their soul , that they may live , was a covenant of grace ; ( for the apostle to the hebrews , ch . ● . , . so describes it : ) but this was such a covenant , as is written deut. . . therefore this was a covenant of grace . answ. besides the exceptions following , it should be proved , that the promise , deut. . . was the oath or covenant mentioned deut. . , . and not rather an interlocutory promise on a special occasion , to erect their hearts in expectation of mercy upon their return from captivity . . saith mr. b. that which st. paul makes the words of the righteousness of faith , was the covenant of grace : but this is such , as is evident by comparing rom. . , , . with deut. . , , . but to this you give two sorry answers , being resolved to say somewhat . . [ it is s●oken of the command . ] answ. . and is it not also of the promise foregoing ? . and is not this from as great a mistake as the other , to think that gods command is no part of his covenant ? that [ he will be their god ] is his promise : but is that all the covenant ? that [ they shall be his people , and so take him for their god , and resign themselves to him ] this is both commanded by him , and covenanted by them . answ. the answer was right that the speech of moses , deut. . , , . however accommodated by paul to another purpose , is meant of the word of the law , the commandments , and statu●es which were written in that very book of the law , v. . which moses delivered , and it was nigh to them that they might hear it and do it : which cannot be meant thus , who shall ascend into heaven to bring christ from above , or who shall descend into the deep , that is to bring christ again from the dead , that we may hear christ thus brought down and up , and do it , it were not good sense , nor any way congruous to the speech of moses . and to mr. bs. reply , . i say it is not spoken of the promise , for that is not a thing for us to hear and do , but for god. . though the command may be a part of the covenant in a large sense , as it includes all that pertains to a covenant , yet in strict and exact sense , a covenan● being an aggregate of promises , the command is not part of the covenant . . however it is no part of the covenant and oath which god sw●re deut. . . for what god sware was that which he would do , not what he appointed them to do , and consequently no part of the covenant of grace , for that is of what god will do for us ; our faith , though it be the condition of the thing promised , yet i● it not the covenant o● grace . . the word , deut. . . cannot be meant of the covenant of grace , sith the condition is the hearing and doing of all the law of moses , that they might keep gods commandments , and his statutes , and his judgements , ( which reach to judicial , and c●remonial precepts , as well as moral ) that thou mayest live and multiply , and the lord thy god shall bless thee in the land , whither thou goest to possess it . locus ille indubitante● de obedien●ia totius legis loquitur . david pareus castig . bellarm. tom . . degrat . & lib. arb . l. . c. . . saith mr. b. you answer [ it is frequent with the apostle to accommodate words to his purpose that have a different sense in the places whence they were taken , from that to which the apostle applieth them , as rom. . . ] answ. a man would think here you plainly mean , that it is frequent with the apostle to wrest and pervert the scripture to his own ends from its true sense ; and you can mean no better , except you mean that he alludeth to the words , making use of the meer phrase without the sense ; and indeed that is usual in common speech : and such is that , rom. . . but that he doth not barely allude to this in deut. . is left undeniable . ● . he bringeth it in , v . as gods description of the righteousness of faith , &c. having before said , moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law , &c. . he addeth the very exposition to every sentence : [ who shall ascend into heaven ] that is , saith he , to bring christ down from above ? and who shall descend into the deep ] that is to bring christ again from the dead ? . he fully expresseth it v. . but what saith it ? the word is nigh thee , &c. that is , the word of faith which we preach , that if thou confess with thy mouth , &c. is not here a full discovery , that the apostle expoundeth , and not onely alludeth to these words ? name mee one place in the new testament , that more evidently speaks in an expository way of any text in the old ? answ. as much is said by the most godly and learned protestant interpreters of this place as by me , and therefore if i be chargeable with accusing the apostle of wresting and perverting the scripture to his own ends from its true sense , they are likewise so chargeable . beza annot . ad rom. . . by this term [ the word ] moses understandeth the law which god by his voyce published , all his people bearing , so that they might pretend no ignorance , when they had the tables of it described , and so might every one recite it out of their mouth , and might have it within as it were engraven in their knowledge and mind . but what moses spake of the law , all that paul accommodates to the goppel by allusion : that at length by the gospel he may teach us to enjoy that indeed which the law promiseth , and be f●eed from that which it threatneth . diodati anno● . on rom. . . st. paul maketh use of this passage though spoken in another sense . the new annot. on rom. . . ●y the word , deut. . , moses understood the law which the lord published with his own voice , and paul applies it to the preaching of the gospel , which was the perfection of the law. on v. . this place is taken out of psal. . . and is properly meant of that knowledge of god , which all men may have by contemplation of the heavens , and the c●eatures therein ; yet it is by the apostle very fitly applied to the sound of the word preached by the apostles . ●rapp on rom. . . moses meant it of the law , but it more fitly agreeth to the gospel piscater analys . paulus alludi● ad verba mosis , deut. . . willet on rom. . qu. . some think that moses in that place , deut. . . directly speaketh of the law according to the literal sense ; and st paul by a certain allusion applieth that unto faith , which moses uttereth of the law . so theodoret , chrysostome , occumenius . likewise tostatus upon the place , paul by a certain agree●ent hath translated this place , and applied it unto faith . vatablus also saith , that paul followeth not moses sense , but some words . yet pareus inclineth to think st. paul here useth but an allusion to that place of moses , dub . . daniel heinsius , exercit. sacr . in rom . , . e rom. . patet rerum esse quod non semel alibi ●●nuimus , sed & a magnis observatum theologis , in epistolam praesertim ad hebraos , meninimus ; novi faderis scriptores verba veteris & eleganter & venust non semel aliò tran●ferre . quod tam usitatum est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ut vi● ullus fi● homeri versus cu●us verba non mutato sensu usurpentur . in his autem quod matthaeus , c. . v. . ● jerem. . . ( quod & b. hieronymus vult ) usurpavit , neque pauca sunt in psalmis quae pro instituto suo paulus maxima cum venustate usurpat . qu●d nec mirum est , cum utrobique idem spiritus , qui tanquam propria ac sua , ante dicta usurpavit . and yet none of these authors did conceive paul to have wrested and perverted the scripture to his own ends from its true sense ; nor doth my speech infer any such accusation . nor do i mean that paul alludeth to the words , making use of the meer phrase without the sense ; but that he accommodates words to his purpose , that have a different sense in the places whence they are taken , from that to which the apostle applieth them , which is no wresting of them . to the reason of mr. b. i answer . to the first , that i do not find that the apostle v. . brings it in as gods description of the righteousness of faith , but by a prosopopeia the righteousness of faith is brought in as directing the believer . to the second , it is true paul addeth the very exposition to every sentence , bu● not an exposition of the text in deut. . , , . but an exposition of the words of the righteousness of faith as they are applied thence by the apostle to his purpose . and yet plain texts which are not so accomodated i cannot ●o put off as i will. your last answer , saith mr. b. is the worst of all . you say , if the covenant did contain promises purely evangelical , yet the covenant in respect of them cannot bee meant of all and every of the israelites , that god would bee a god to them , that is , sanctifie , justifie , adopt them to bee heirs of eternal life . ] answ. . god saith you stand all here , &c. to enter into the covenant , and oath , &c. and you say , it cannot be all , whom shall we believe god or you ? answ. both , for we say in this point the same , that some in the name of all did enter into covenant , and his oath to be a god in them , and yet he not be a god to them all that entred into the covenant , but to to them onely that kept the covenant ▪ . saith hee , you foully mis-interpret the promise , to bee to them a god , as if it were such as could bee verified to none but the elect . god hath p●omised to others to bee their god , who are not elect , as is undeniable in the text . therefore in a larger sense , as i have before in due place fully explained it . answ. it is sure foul language to tell me i foully mis interpret the promis● to be to them a god , when i interpret not at all t●e promise deut. . . but onely infer from mr. ●s . interpretation of it as purely evangelical ( which i count false ) that then it in respect of promises purely evangelical should be meant onely of the elect , which i agree with him to be absurd . nor is the matter salved by telling me that god hath promsed to others to be their god who are not elect , for however hee hath not promised to be a god in respect of promises purely evangelical to be a god by sanctifying , justifying , adopting to eternal life , to any but the elect . yet mr. b. asks me . and why may not god promise justification , adoption ( and sanctification in the sense as divines , and scripture most use it , for the work following faith ) and eternal life , and all on the condition of faith , and this to more then the elect ? and hath he not done so ? but of this and of infants condition before answ. . by sanctifying i meant the sanctifying by which faith is produced , which is the same with regeneration , writing the lawes in the heart , heb. . . and is used so cor. . . & . , &c. and thus he sanctifieth onely the elect , ephes. . thes. . . and i supposed mr. b. had meant the same by circumcision of the heart , to love the lord , deut. . . and that hee included it in the promise of being a god to them , deut. . . and this sure is proper to the elect , if mr. b. say true , friendly accommod . p. ▪ cor novum is given to the elect onely . and sure if mr. b. did not mean this , he did not mean the covenant of grace , or the gospel covenant , in which this is the first promise , heb. . . . but let after-sanctification be onely meant , and justification condition of faith , yet i think the promise is made of these to none but the elect , ●ith none are believers but they . an offer may bee made to others by men , but no promise by which god is bound , and will performe it to any other . if the covenant bee on condition of faith , then it is not made to infants , for they believe not . nor is the promise made to infants on condition of parents faith , for though mr. b. dream so , yet the scripture saith not so , nor is it true . for . the promise should then be made to esau as well as to jacob in infancy , which the apostle refutes rom. , , , ▪ . if the promise were made to infants upon their parents faith , then god is engaged to sanctifie them in infancy , and if so he doth it , and if he do , either holiness by sanctification of the spirit may bee lost , or else they must all go to heaven , for all holy ones go thither , . the promise to the father is upon condition of his own faith , therefore so is the promise to the child , for there is not a different promise to the father and the child upon different conditions . but i hasten . he adds . you would sain say somewhat too to that deut. . . but like the rest , . you confess it is a promise of spiritual grace , but to the jewes after their captivitie , . ●nd upon condition of obedience , . and not performed to all their seed , but onely to the elect . ] answ. . but did god promise spiritual grace to the jews after the captivity and not before ? repl. the promise deut. . . is to the israelites to do it for them onely after their captivity , i said not after the captivity as mr. b. speaks . was not the promise , saith he , made to them that then were ? repl. it was . were not they , saith he ; captivated oft in the time of the judges , and so it might at least be made good then ? repl. i grant it . if god , saith he would do as much for them before they forsook him , and brake the covenant by rebellion , as he would do afterward when they repented , then he would circumcise their hearts before as well as after : but the former is true , therefore the later . repl. i grant it , yet this proves not the promise as it is there deut. . . to be made to them of what god would do for them afore their captivity . . saith hee , and if it bee on condition of obedience , then you confess there are conditional promises , and then it was made to more then the elect . answ. i deny the consequence . . saith hee , if it were not performed to any but the elect , no wonder , when it was a conditional promise , and the rest performed not the condition : which god will cause the elect to perform . answ. sure it was not promised to any but to whom god performs it . for though it were on a condition of theirs , yet it was such a condition as was to be wrought and was promised by him , which hee did onely to the elect . and thus mr. b. may see my vindication or my descant on this text , and the reader perhaps will wonder at the vanity and wilfulness of mr. bs. exceptions against it . sect . lxviii . neither from rom. . . nor by other reason hath mr. b. proved , ch . , . part . . of baptism , that infant churchmembership was partly natural , partly grounded on the law of grace and faith. ch. . mr. b. writes thus . my th . arg . is from rom. . almost all the chapter , wherein the apostle fully sheweth , that the promise ( upon which his priviledges were grounded ) was not made to abraham upon legal grounds , but upon the ground of faith : from whence i might draw many ar●●ments , but for brevity , i desire you to peruse the chapter ; onely from the eleventh verse : and hee received , &c. from whence i thus argue . if infants then usually were entred and engaged churchmembers by that circumcision which was a seal of the righteousness of faith , and was not given on legal grounds ; then that churchmembership of infants is not repealed : ( as beeing built on grounds of gospel , and not law , and sealed with a durab●e seal , that is , the seal of the righteousness of faith . ) but the antecedent is plain in the text . answ it is true rom. . , , , , . there is mention of gods promise to abraham , and in particular two speeches are cited v. . gen. . . i have made thee a father of many nations ( which implies a promise ) & v. . gen. . . so shal thy seed be , & it is true the privile●ges of justification by faith , of the father of believers , of heir of the world , 〈◊〉 by faith , and the promise but that his visible churchmemhership 〈◊〉 infants was by promise is not said , nor is there a word in that chapter or elsewhere , ●o prove that churcmembership of infants was built on grounds of gospel and not law , or that it was sealed , or that the seal was durable which was termed the seal of the righteousness of faith , or that the circumcising of any person besides abraham was a seal of the righteousness of faith , and therefore i deny the minor , which hee termes the antecedent , and the consequence of the major also . for if his reason were good , i might by the same medium thus argue , if that circumcision by which infants were usually then entred and engaged churchmembers was a seal of the righteousness of faith , and was not given on legal grounds then that circumcision of infants is not repealed , but the antecedent is plain in the text , ergo. what answer mr. b. gives to this argument will also answer his own , and i presume he will not hold circumcision unrepealed , which hee must if his argument be good . mr. b. addes , i urged this on mr. t. many years ago , and all his answer was , that abrahams circumcision was a seal to others that should come after , of the unrighteousness of abrahams faith but no otherwise . a strange answer , and very bold ! i hear that since he answereth , that it was onely such a seal of abrahams righteousness by faith , but not of others afterward . answ. i am sure mr. b. in this ( as he doth almost in every thing i have spoken , written or done , which he hath had occasion to mention ) doth mis-report me , my an●wer to him and others was not as he and they represent it . this is my answer , . that rom. . . no other persons circumcision but abrahams is termed the seal of the righteousness of faith ▪ . that to abraham his circumcision was a seal of that righteousness by faith , which hee had afore bee was circumcised . . that abrahams personal circumcision is a seal of the righteousness of faith to all that believe as he did , and to no other . . that the usu●l ci●cu●cision of infants , was not a seal of the righteousness of faith , or of the covenant of grace to every circumcised person . but , saith mr. b. . the text seems to speak of the nature and use of circumcision , and the end of its institution : as being ordained at first of god to seal onely a gospel righteousness of faith , and not a legal righ●eousness of works or ceremonies . answ. . if circumcision were at first ordained of god to seal a gospel righteousness of faith , then it did not seal visible churchmembership of infants ( for that is not a gospel righteousness of faith , sith it may bee without gospel righ●eousness or faith , and these may bee without it ) as mr. b. saith in this chapter . . the nature , use and end of circumcision in others , is not at all expressed rom. . ●● . but onely of abrahams . . the use and end of circumcision was at first to signifie that covenant god entered into with abraham , gen. . after to binde the circumcised to observe the law of moses , as the apostle conceived it gal. . . . saith he , doth god institute a standing ordinance to endure till christ , to have one end for him to whom it was first given 〈◊〉 another to all others ? is not the nature , end , and use of sacram●●ts or holy engaging signs and seals , the same to all ? though the fruit be not alway the same . these are poor shifts against a manifest truth , which deserve not answer . answ. . doth not mr. b. of baptism p. . ch . . himself answer , that baptism , which he terms a sacrament or holy engaging signe and seal , hath more ends and uses then one , and that the infant is capable of some , though not of others : yea though he make the end to be in the definition of sacraments that it is of their nature to be signs , and so no sacraments but what do signifie ; yet hee will have baptism to bee a sacrament to an infant to whom it never is any signe or signifies any thing , for the baptised infant either never saw it , or never saw it as a signe of the engagem●nt mr. b. speaks of , and so it is never a signe to the baptised , the baptism leaving no visible impression on the body as circumcision did , to signifie to the infant when hee comes to age . whence i infer , . that according to mr. bs. own doctrine , the sacrament of baptism hath one end to those to whom it was first given to wit , to signifie their owning of christ as their lord , and another end to almost all others , to wit , infants , to seal them gods promise without their personal owning of christ. . that according to him , the nature , end , and use of sacraments , or holy engaging signs and seals is not the same to all ; for baptism is no holy engaging sign to an infant , who doth neither signifie by it , nor hath any thing signified to it by it , no nor is naturally capable of it , and consequently it is no sacrament to it , sith it is not either actually or potentially a sign to the infant , no not when grown up of any thing signified by it . . doth not mr. b. acknowledge , that abrahams circumcision did seal the righteousness of saith which he had being yet uncircumcised ? sure he will not deny this , which the apostle expresly teacheth . but sure it had not that end in all others , therefore he must acknowledge one end of circumcision for abraham which to all others it had not . about the nature , end , and use of sacraments , i have expressed in part my mind before , sect . nor either there or here do i use any shifts against a manifest truth , but mr. b. ha●h levied a company of poor feeble arguments , which but for the shallowness or prejudice of paedobaptists , deserved not an answer . ch. . he saith thus . my th . arg . is this : if the law of infants churchmembership were no part of the ceremonial or meerly judicial law , nor yet of the law of works , then it is not repealed . but it was no part of the ceremonial law , nor meerly judicial , nor part of the law of works ( as such . ) therefore it is not repealed . the consequence is evident , seeing no other laws are repealed . the antecedent i prove in its parts . . none will say it was part of the law of works ; for that knows no mercy to those who have once offended : but churchmembership was a mercy . answ. . mr. b. should have first proved any such law at all ( which he hath not proved yet ) distinct from the law of circumcision ; and this is my answer to this argument , that there is no such law at all , and this is enough . yet i add , . if his pre●ended law of infants visible churchmembership be no part of the law of works , then it is not of the law of nature , which before and after he asserts ; for the law and covenant of nature , is the law and covenant of works , which i think mr. b. wil not deny , surely it is not of grace in christ ; ergo. that is not of grace in christ which was afore the fall ; but such is the law of nature , ergo. . that the law of works knows no mercy to those who have once offended , is a dictate of divines , which needs proof . that the law at mount sinai was a law of works , is proved before , sect . . but that yeelded some mercy , levit. . , , , , . numb . . , , , . ergo. . how far , and in what manner visible churchmembership of infants was a mercy , and how it is otherwise now , is shewed before , sect . , . . saith mr. b. if it were part of the ceremonial law , then . let them shew what it was a type of , and what is the antitype that hath succeeded it , and prove it to be so , if they can . answ. . i do not take every thing typical to have been ceremonial ; nor every ceremonial thing to be typical : or if it be so , yet i am sure , of every thing ceremonial which was typical , mr. b. cannot shew what was the antitype in particular , at least he cannot prove it . when mr. b. hath shewed and proved what was the antitype to all the dishes , bowls , snuffers , and other utensils about the tabernacle , and of every thing appointed concerning them , their colour , fashion , mettal , &c. and of every rite prescribed israel by moses , there may be some equity in mr. bs. task . but till then it is enough to tell him , that to it with other things typified , christ , col. . . succeeded . the churchmembership by birth hath had churchmembership by faith to succeed it , as is before proved from gal . and if that be not enough , let mr. b. answer , and not slight what mr. samuel fisher writes in his baby baptism meer babism , about the ceremonial holiness of the jews infants , pag. . , , , , &c. . saith he , if the very materials of the church were a ceremony , then the church it self should be but a ceremony . and so the church in abraham● family should be more vile then the church in the family of noah , melchizedech , sem , job , lot , &c. which were more then ceremonies . answ. the levitical priesthood was ceremonial , and yet not the materials , that is the men , a ceremony ; so churchmembership might be a ceremony , yet not the churchmembers . but i do not term either the one or the other a ce●emony , it is sufficient that it was a meer positive thing alterable and that it was altered . . saith he , and that it was no part of the meerly judicial law , appears thus . . as was last said , then also the church in abrahams family should be more vile then the aforesaid ▪ for their churchmembership was not a piece of meer policy , as we call the judicials . answ. i● it we●e by any law that infants were churchmembers , it is more likely to be 〈◊〉 judicial law then any other of the ●hree sorts of the mosaical laws , which divines do so distinguish . and to the argument i say , . by making infants churchmembership to be by a mixt or meer judicial law in abrahams family , it is not made a piece of meer civil policy not eccl●siastical , for the jew● commonwealth was a holy policy , and the members of the state were members of the church and consequently , it is rather made more excellent by referring it to the meer judicial laws , as the constitution of the sanhed●in and other things are , and the admitting of the proselytes and their children was by the elders of the jews . . how to say concerning the families of noah , &c. we cannot resolve , sith we find little or nothing of them , no mention of noahs infants , or melchizedecs , sems , jobs , or lots except amm●n and moab , nothing said of their churchmembership , or of the government of the families , what it was , or by what law . . saith he , it cannot be shewn that it hath any thing of the nature of a meer judicial law in it ( except we may call the moral laws or gospel promises judicial , upon which meer judicials are built : ) why is it not as much of the judicial law to have women churchmembers as children ? yet who dare say that this is meerly judicial ? answ. it can be shewn , that if there be such a law , it is a meer judicial law , because it belonged to the ordering of the commonwealth or policy of israel , as it is termed , ephes. . . and the entring of proselytes was to be done by the eldership of the people , and not by the priests . and this we da●e say of the womens visible churchmembership as well as the infants , and that neither of them were by a moral law o● gospel promise as mr. b. fancies . . sai●h he , it is of the very law of nature to have infants to be part of a kingdome , and the kings subjects . and mr. t. hath told me his judgement ; that the jews church and commonwealth was all one : therefore according to mr. t. his grounds , it must needs be requisite even naturally that infants should then be churchmembers . i thinke this is past denial . answ. kingdomes themselves are not of the law of nature , no nor of the law of nations , if they were , all other government then of kings were against these laws , much less can it be o● the law of nature to have infants to be part of a kingdome , and the kings subjects . according to my judgment , the jews church and commonwealth were not all one naturally , but by institution ; and therefore , according to my grounds , it is not requisite even naturally that infants should then be churchmembers . so that i find none o● these things past denial . . saith he , the promise that took them in , and the seal were both grounded on the righteousness of ●aith , as is proved before ; therefore not a meer judicial . answ. neither were they taken in by a promise , nor was the promise or the seal grounded , that is , made or given by reason of the righteousness of faith , to or in those to whom they were made or given . nor is any such thing before proved by mr. b. . saith he , in●ants were churchmembers long before the time of moses , when the jews were formed into a commonwealth , and the ●udicial laws given them . and as the apostle argues , the law which was many hundred years after , could not make void the promise , and so it could not be that this was part of the meerly judicial law . answ. the jews were formed into a commonmealth , and judicial laws given , as may appear by the appointment of onan and sh●lah to take their brothers wife , gen. . and the sentence of judah concerning tamar , v. . before moses time , though then both were compleated . though the law makes not void the promise , yet the law of infants visible churchmembership , if there were any such , might be meerly judicial . . saith he , that it is neither a meer judicial , nor proper to the jews ▪ appeareth thus . that which was proper to the jews , was given to them onely ; that is , onely to isaac and his seed , on whom the jewish priviledges were intailed . but many hundreds were circumcised as churchmembers ( among them many infants ) in abrahams family , before ever isaac was born ; and all the proselytes with their infants afterward that would come in . the children of keturah and their children , and the children of ishmael , &c. were once all churchmembers ; let any shew when they were unchurched , except when they unchurched themselves by their wickedness ; or let any shew that the same sons of keturah , who must circumcise their sons as churchmembers while they were in abrahams family , must leave them uncircumcised and unchurched when they were removed from that family . did god change laws , and revoke such mercies and priviledges to the seed of abraham , meerly because of their removing from his house , and change of place ? who dare believe such fancies , without one word of scripture ? remember therefore , that it is here plainly proved , that infants churchmembership was not proper to the jews . answ. that which wa● proper to the jews was not proper to isaac onely and his seed , but common to abraham , isaac , and jacobs family , or the people that either by birth or proselytism were hebrews : when ishmael was cast out , and the sons of keturah sent away from isaac , gen. . . they were not churchmembers , nor their children , no more then the circumcised children of the jews by strange wives when they were separated from the holy seed , ezra . & nehem . which the lord did for that reason which he judged fit , however it seem to us . nor is this conceit a fancy , but plain from those scriptures named and others , which still reckon the ishmaeli●es , edomites , ketureans , and posterity of jews by prohibited women and separated from the congregation of israel , as a profane people , and so not churchmembers . nor do i think they were bound to circumcise their infants as churchmembers , or did it when separated from the hebrew people . so that mr. b. hath not yet proved , that infants churchmembership was not proper to the jews , but that it is partly natural , and partly grounded on the law of grace and faith , as he speaks . sect . lxix . mr. b. ch . . by his th . arg . from infants being once members in the universal visible church , hath not proved their visible churchmembership unreapealed . ch. . my th . arg saith he , is this : if all infants who were members of any particular church , were also members of the universal visible church ( which was never taken down ; ) then certainly their churchmembership is not repealed : but all infants , that were members of any particular church , were also members of the universal visible church ; therefore their churchmembership is not repealed . the consequence is beyond dispute , because the universal church never ceaseth here . and in my judgement , the whole argument is so clear , that were there no more it were sufficient . answ. the very conclusion , is so palpably false , that no man that understands it but will wonder that mr. b. should shew himself so besotted , as to prove so in●ustriously a thing contrary to sense , that the visible churchmembership of no infants who were members of any particular church is repealed , that is , ceaseth . for who knows not that isaac , jacob , moses , david , with million● more are dead , and are now no members in any visible church ? if it be said , that mr. b. means the species of infants , i reply , then he speaks non-sense and false . for the species is but one , and therefore to ●erm the species which is but one [ all infants ] in the plural number is non-sense and false for the species was never a member of any particular church , for members are individuals , nor is the universal visible church totum universale , which may bee thus divided into adult and infants as into two sorts of churches , but totum integrale , an integral whole consisting of parts existing , and when the parts ceased to exist then they were not members visible , and the whole church visible must needs cease when all the members existent are deceased . it is false also that the species an be termed visible : for that is visible which may be discerned by sense , but sense discerneth not species , but individuals . if it be said that mr. b. means that the universal visible church is as a fluent body , as a river whi●h con●inues the same from a succession of ether water in the same channel , neither will this ●ee for his purpose . for . in that sense the infants that were members cease , and other infants succeed ; . it is manifest that the visible church is not now among those people , to wit the jews , w●o had heretofore infants visible churchmembers , they are broken off from being gods visible church , and so the succession of churchmembers in t●at people ceaseth , and it is that which is denied t●at in the other channel , to wit the visible christian church , infants do or ought to be taken to succeed in the place of the deceased jewish infants , and if the sense be thus , the whole argument is this ; if infants visible churchmembership be and ●ught to be taken to be in the christian visible church as in the jewish , then it is not repealed . but infants visible churchmembership is and ought to be taken to be in the christian visible church as in the jewish , ergo . of which i should deny the minor . but this hath no likelihood to be mr. bs. meaning , whose words import plainly that which i count non-sense and false . and therefore i answer to his argument , if the parenthesis ( which was never taken down ) be a part of the antecedent in the major , and the sense be this [ and the universal visible church existent in the age wherein infants were members of a particular church was never taken down or ceased not ] and this be supplied in the minor , i d●ny the minor , if it be not supplied i deny the syllogism to be good , as not having the whole medium in the minor which was in the major , if it be understood in another sense ( which i count non-sense ) that the species of infants in the jewish particular church were members of the universal visible church christian , the minor is to bee proved . as for what mr. b. saith , the universal church never ceaseth here , if it be meant of the universal visible church definite of that age ( in which alone infants visible members of a particular church are members ) it is false , if of an universal church visible indefinite , so as that the sense be , some or other universal church visible never ceaseth , or an universal visible church in some age or other ceaseth not infant members in the particular church are not members in such an universal , but in the definite of one age , and the minor of mr. bs. argument in that sense is false ; or if the sense bee ( as it seemeth by what followes ) that the nature of the universal visible church ceaseth not ●heere , i deny the consequence of the major in mr. bs. syllogism ; and say , that it is non-sense to term the nature of the universal visible church the universal visible church , as it is to term humanity or manhood a man , or peter humanity or the humane nature . all know that understand the metaphysicks , that whatever the difference bee whether formal or modal or some other , yet the one is not rightly predicated or said of the other : no man saith the essence of a thing ( which is all one with the nature ) is the thing , but that by which it is . in like manner it is non-sense to say infants were members of the nature of the universal church visible . for membership hath relation to an integral whole not to an essential , no man makes infants a part of the definition of the universal visible church , but of the compleatness of it . but let 's view mr. bs. proof . . saith he , that there is a universal visible church , mr. rutherford and others have largely proved : they of new england indeed deny a unive●sal visible governing or political church ; but not this that i speak of ( as you may see in mr. shepheard and mr. allens answer to mr. ball ) but lest any should deny it , i wi●l bring one proof or rather many in one , cor. , . we are all baptised by one spiri● into one body , whether jews or gentiles . here you see it is one and the same body that all are baptised into : now that this is the visible church i prove thus . . that one body that hath distinct visible members with variety of gifts is the visible body : but this is such . . that one body which is visible in suffering and rejoycing is the visible body . but this is such v. , . . that body which is capable of schism , and must be admonished not to admit of it , is the visible body ; but this is such v. . . that body which had the visible seals of baptism and the lords supper was the visible body ; but this was such v. . . that one body which had visible universal officers was the visible universal church or body ; but this was such : therefore , &c. answ. i list not to interpose my judgement in the controversies between mr. ball and mr. rutherford , and mr. hudson on the one side , and mr. allen , mr. shepheard , and mr. hooker on the other side , which rest much on the meaning of the term [ church ] in such passages as these cor. , . & . . acts . ● . gal. . , &c. and some logick notions of an universal and integral whole , of a similar and dissimilar whole , the distinction of a church entitive and organical , and the like . nevertheless because it concerns the present point that i should say somewhat in this thing , i shall thus far express my conceits . . i think by the word church in none of the places alledged by mr. hudson vindic . ch . . a particular fixed congregation organized is meant except the last , . joh. . where i conceive the casting out could be onely out of that particular church where diotrephes did lord it , and where alone he did and could forbid those that would receive the brethren , though perhaps the effect might extend further . nor do i think on the other side , that in any one of them by [ the church ] is meant the universal visible organical political church collectively taken , which mr. hudson asserts not acts. . . gal. . ● . for saul did not make havock , persecuted or destroy the whole church so taken , nor only the particular church of jerusalem , but the word [ church ] there is taken without quantity , an● so neither notes the universal nor particular , all nor some , but indefinitely in genere confuso , the disciples of christ , or any of that way , acts . . them that believed on christ , acts . . them that called on his name , acts . . the saints , acts . . wheresoever hee could reach them . and in the same sense it is taken acts . . cor. . . tim. . . and i think the sense is the same eph. . . whether [ by the church ] be meant of what was done to or on the church , that is the believers called out of the gentiles , to whom hee gave his spirit manifestly as on cornelius , or by the teachers in the church , especially of the wonderful mysteries which were revealed in the exercise of gifts then given . matth . . it is true , is meant the visible church , but not the universal organical collectively taken , nor any particular congregation organized , but the visible in respect of the part which is invisible , against which the gates of the grave or death shall not prevail , to keep them in , but they shall be raised up again to everlasting life at the last day . nor is it said that the keyes should bee given to the church but to peter , the use of which was to bee in the calling of the church effectually . the other text cor. . . cannot be meant of the church visible universal organical collective , nor of a particular congregation , not this latter for reasons given by mr. hudson , nor the former , for the apostles , prophets , teachers , are distinct from the church there taken : but they are not so from the church universal visible organical collective , ergo. therefore i conceive apostles , &c. are not said to be set in the church collectively taken as a totum integrale organicum , but in the church distributively taken , that is , in the several churches where they were imployed , as peter among those of the circumcision , paul among the gentiles . to which the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . hath set , gives me occasion to encline , which i conceive to b●e the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gave , eph. . . and it notes not a setting , by way of law constituting such to be in the church , but a setting or disposing by way of providence in several churches for their profit , as he saw good . . i conceive the term catholike or universal church ( between which mr. bl. coven sealed pag. . saith divines distinguish ) is sometimes taken in contradistinction to the jewish national church , sometimes as comprehending both the believers before and since the incarnation of christ , and in both senses i conceive it notes the invisible church , or the church of the first born which are written in heaven , heb. . . who are fellow heirs of the same body and partakers together of the promise of christ through the gospel , ephes . . ▪ and this is the catholike church in the apostles creed , which we believe though we see it not . . i acknowledge a catholike visible church both before and after christs incarnation entitive , though i think not organical since christs ascension and the apostles decease , and that this catholike visible church consists of all the visible church-members and churches particular visible in all the world and that this is visible onely in the several parts , which exist , and because these parts are in flux as a city , army , commonwealth , there are sometimes more sometimes fewer , sometimes the same persons may be visible church-members and sometimes not , some parts may be formed after one manner some after another , the same sort of persons may be ( as infants ) in a church v●sible of one constitution and not in another , he may bee a member ( as cornelius ) in one church that is not in another . so that the church universal visible which i acknowledge is not uniform , and is onely as in numbring a total sum of many particulars cast up . . i conceive the text mr. b. alledgeth serveth not his purpose . for though i think it is meant of the church visible , yet not in respect of all the parts of the church visible , but those that are so visible as that they are also of the invisible church , to wit , true believers . . because it is said that th●y are by one spirit baptised into one body , and made to drink into one spirit , now this must be understood of that unity of spirit which unites to christ , not barely in respect of common gifts to the sanctified and unsanctified . but this cannot bee said of all the vi●ble members of the visible church , therefore it is not meant of them . . because the many members ▪ termed one body are termed christ , v. . which can bee meant of christ mystical onely , for those that are onely christ by profession are not termed christ , but those who are spiritually uni●ed to him ▪ now those are one spirit , cor. . . new creatures , cor. . . to whom there is no condemnation , rom. . . of his flesh and of his bones , ephes. . , , . and to his reasons i answer , that though they prove the body meant cor . . was visible , yet they prove not that all parts of the visible church are comprehended in that body , but onely such as were also of the invisible . . saith mr. b. that the jews infants were members of this universal visible church , i prove thus : there is but one visible universal church or body : therefore they must needs be of this one , or be unchurched . see gal. . . ephes. , cor. ● . . answ. the unity there ascribed is not visible but invisible , to wit , by the union of the same spirit , and the body though visible in respect of some parts , yet is not said to bee one in resp●ct of any but those who are invisibly also joyned to that body , or for their sake , as mr. b. pag. if christ gal. . . bee not meant of christ personal , it is certain it is meant of no more then christ mystical , or the church invisible , and so cor. . . the like is to be said . and that it is so ephes. . ● . appears from the words where these are joyned one body and one spirit . therefore i deny that those texts are meant of the universal visible church as visible , but onely of that part of the universal visible church of that time which was also of the invisible , which is one by unity of the same spirit . as for the universal visible church it cannot bee said to bee one in several ages numerically , for it is but the total of all the members then existent ( for if they bee not existent among the living they are not visible ) and they are sometimes the same , sometimes others ( hee that is now of the visible church may cease by death or apostasie to be so to morrow ) sometimes more sometime fewer , but they are one in respect of profession of the same faith , or in some other visible appearance to be of gods people . now the infants of the jews might be members of the visible church universal of a former age , but were not of the universal visible church of that age , which was not one numerically with the universal visible church of a former age , nor meant to be so , cor. . . . saith he , every one that is a mamber of the particular , must needs be a member of the universal ; else one might be a part of the part , and yet not a part of the whole . answ. it is true of the universal made up of those parts , but he may be a member of the particular church of uncircumcised , as cornelius , who is not a member of the particular church of the circumcised ; and he may be a member of the universal visible of one time , who is not a member of the universal visible of another time . a jew before the offer of christ might be a member of the jewish church national , as the pharisees , to whom john baptist , ch●ist , and his apostles preached ; yet were not members of the universal church visible when they rejected the offer of christ. infants were members of the visible universal jewish church , who were not so of the universal visible christian in another ●ge . mr. bs mistake is i conceive in this , that he thinks the universal visible church is one and the same in every age , which is a gross mistake . but he saith , this is all beyond dispute ; and mr. t. denied none of it , when i urged it on him , he confesseth , . there is a universal church visible . . that the jews church was not the whole universal . . that every one that is a member of a particular church , is also a member of the universal . . and that the jews infants were members of the universal . . and this universal church is not dissolved . answ. i have made some search whether ever i confessed that this universal church visible of which the jews infants were members is not dissolved , and do not remember or find that ever i did so ; if i sholud , i do revoke it , as being most false : and i rather think ( if i did yeeld any thing that seemed like it ) that what i confessed was , that the nature or essentials of the church are not dissolved , in stead of which ( as i ghess by what follows ) mr. b. put this as my confession . he adds . what then remains to be denied ? why this is all that he saith to the whole [ that their membership in the vniversal church was onely by reason of their membership in the particular ; and therefore ceased with it . ] and how is this proved ? why mr. t. saith it is so , and that is the best proof , and all that i could get . answ. it was enough when i was a respondent that i said so , it had been mr. bs. part to have disproved it : but i did then think , and do still think it so plain , that it needed not proof ; and ( as very a wrangler as mr. b. is ) i think mr. b. grants as much when he saith , that every one that is a member of a part is a member of the whole , and that the individual church that then was , was broken off for unbelief ; and i know no visible church but an individual . methinks it is all one as if i had said , the finger is onely a member of the whole body in that it is a part of the hand , and when the hand ceaseth to be a part of the body , the finger ceaseth to be a member . but yet m. b. will try whether hee can disprove this any better . . saith he , i think i have sufficiently proved , that even the nature of the jews church was not repealed , but onely the accidental ceremonies ; and the individual church that then was , is broken off for unbelief ; but the olive still remained . answ. the visible church jewish could be no other then the individual church jewish , which if broken off , though the nature of the jews church was not repealed , and the olive still remained , yet the infant churchmembership which came onely in with the jewish national church , might and did cease . . saith he . if the jews church were repealed , yet he that will affirm that the whole species of infants are cast out of the universal visible church , must prove it well : for if i find that they were once in it , i need no more proof that they remain in , till some one shew me where it is revoked , which is not yet done by any that i know of . answ. the repealing of the nature of the jews church , and of the jews church ( which intimate that the nature of the jews church and the jews church were a law capable of repeal ) is a piece of baxterian non-sense , which i use not . that the jewish church national is broken off , and that churchmembership by birth is altered into churchmembership by faith , is so fully proved before , sect . , , . besides what elsewhere is said by me , that i count it superfluous to add any more . if it satisfie not mr. b. it 's to be ascribed to his pertinacy in his opinion , which to be his proper temper i was told long ago , and much experience of him by my self and others find to be true . . saith he , the universal church is more excellent far then any particular , and so our standing in the universal church is a far higher priviledge then our standing or membership in any particular : therefore it will not follow , that infants lose the greater , because they lose the lesser ; and that they are cast out of the universal , because they are cast out of the particular . answ. the universal may be more excellent then any particular extensively , because the universal comprehend the most excellent part , and the rest also ; but not intensively , sith all the excellency may be from one part . christ the head is not the universal body , and yet the whole body is not more excellent intensively then christ , that is , hath not more perfection then christ ; for all the excellency in all the members is christs , and from christ. yet the standing in the universal is not a higher priviledge then in the particular church ; yea , if there be a standing in the universal besides the standing in the particular , yet the standing in the particular is a higher priviledge . else why do ministers exhort men to joyn with some particular church , and to submit to their pastors ? is it not for their advantage ? sure mr. b. who condemns seekers , and those that are separ●tists from a particular church , and those that live out of communion with any particular church as christians at large , and are so members of the universal church , should not think they have a higher priviledge then members of a particular church . if he do , he doth wrong them in condemning them , and disswading them from that state which is a higher priviledge . much less is it true concerning infants , who are not visible churchmembers , but as they stand in the particular church . for they are not by their own profession visible churchmembers , but meerly in that they are part of that nation which god takes for his people , as god did the hebrew nation , and no other before nor since . this is clear , if we suppose the whole hebrew nation destroyed except one male infant , this male infant would be no visible churchmember , there being nothing by which he is discernable to sense to be more one of gods people then another infant , though there we●e many churches of gentiles ●n other places : whereas on the other side , if a christian by profession were in no particular church , but stood alone in an island of unbelievers , remote from any particular churches , i presume mr. b. would say he were a visible member of the universal , though of no particular . whence it follows , that if infants lose their standing in the particular church jewish , they lose their standing in the universal . . saith he , persons are first ( in order of nature , or time , or both , ) members of the universal church , before they are members of any particular ▪ so was noah , lo● , abraham , and all men before christ , and so are all since christ. the eunuch in acts . was baptized into the universal visible church , and not into any particular . it is so with all others : it is the general use and nature of baptism ; they are baptized into the name of the father , son , and holy ghost , and so into the catholick church ; but not into any particular church : if any such thing be , it is secondary , and accidental and additional , and no proper end of baptism . so that it being first in order , that we are entred into the visible universal church , it is likely to be of more durable continuance . answ. avoiding unnecessary disceptations with mr. b. about the general use and nature of baptism , and about the priority in order , or time , or both , according to which persons are members of the universal visible church afore they are of the particular , i do agree , that persons who were visible churchmembers by their sensible profession of the true god , were members of the universal afore they were of the particular : but deny this concerning infants , for the reason before given . . saith he , it is no good consequence that is fetcht from the removal of a particular church , or of the jews particular church , to breaking off from the universal ; therefore this will not prove infants are broke off . if a jew had been forced into a strange countrey , yet there , both he and his children had been churchmembers of the universal church . when all the jews were scattered abroad in captivity , so that they had neither temple , nor altar , nor priest , but perhaps one live in one town , and another in another , as they do at this day ; you could not say , that these were of the visible particular church of the jews , though you might say still that they were abrahams seed , and they and their children were members of the visible universal church . answ. the consequence is good as i frame it , their churchmembership visible ceaseth , who were visible churchmembers onely in that they were part of that visible church which now ceaseth ; but so it was concerning infants visible churchmembership , ergo , it ceaseth : which is different from that which mr. b. imposeth on me . to his suppositions i say , that they were in that case members of the visible particular church of the jews , which was a particular church , and so accounted even in their captivity , though not in a flourishing estate as in their own countrey . and for the instance of keturahs children when they left the church of abrahams family , if their infants were visible church-members ( which i conceive they were not ) then it was because they joyned themselves as proselytes to the hebrew people , which i think is not true , and therefore conceive if any of keturahs children who left the church of abrahams family , professed the god of abraham , they were members of the universal , but not their infants . and ●or what mr. b. adds , ●f a jew then , or a christian now , were cast upon the coasts of america , where he should never be a member of a particular church more , yet he should be a member of the universal still ; i grant it , while they profess god in christ. and for what he adds , neither joseph , mary , nor jesus in his infancy were unchurched , because they lived in aegypt ( though i confess it is disputable whether christ were ever a churchmember property ; but i pass by that ) i grant it , for they remained members of the jewish church then when they were in aegypt ▪ as i presume mr. b. counts those of his church of kederminster members still , who may by imprisonment , traffique , service of the state in war , sickness , or otherwayes be absent thence in england , or forreigne parts against their will. . saith he , again , to lose their standing in the visible universal church , is to lose their place in the visible body ( cor. . . ) and in the house o● the living god , tim. . . the pillar and ground of truth : but to be removed from one particular church , or from every particular church , is no casting out of christs body , or gods house : therefore it will not follow upon the removal from a particular church , that they are removed from the universal ; especially when we are not speaking of individual infants , but of the whole species . so that i think this argument is unanswerable : infants were members of the universal visible church ( as mr. t. confesseth ) this is the church that we are now baptized into ; and this church constitution is not altered or taken down : therefore infants membership of this church is not taken down , what ever it be of the jews particular church . answ. the consequence is good as i framed it in the paragraph next before , yea though mr. bs. two propositions here be granted : nor can mr. b. overthrow it , ●●ll he prove that the jews infants had a standing in the universal visible church , severed from their standing in the jewish particular , for which he hath yet brought no proof . his saying that he spake of the whole species , not of individual infants , makes his speeches to appear ridiculous non-sense . for the whole species hath no standing in the visible church universal or particular , nor can be said to be admitted in , or cast out , or removed from one or every particular church . these things cannot be said of a species , but of individuals , sith a species is conceived abstractively from all individuificating circumstances of time , place , &c. which must be conceived in visible churchmembership and removal or casting out . and that we are baptised now into that universal visible church in which infants were members , is utterly false , and that the church constitution is altered in that the jewish particular church ceaseth i● proved before , therefore there is not●ing in this argument unanswerable . as for what mr. b. adds to this chapter p. . i finde not that ●e brings any more strength in it which needs further answer . he refers me to mr. hudsons vindic . but tels me not what part he would have me answer , perhaps there is not any thing in the book that opposeth mee besides what is already answered , and i am not yet so obsequious to mr. b. as to go ov●r a whole book to finde an adversary to fight with ; if mr. b. kn●w any strength in it to oppose me with , he should have himself produced it or referred me to the particular place where i might finde it . as for the texts which hee cites out of mr. hudson , an answer is fu●ly made to what hee brings them for in the d . pa●t of this rev●ew , ●ect . in which mr. b. and others may see how shamefully they abuse scripture , to prove a church national comprehending infants like the jewish in the time of the go●pel . and i add , that if mr. b. weigh mr. hudsons words in his vindic . ch . sect . . p. , . i acknowledge the jews to be a national church . but my description of the church catholike was of the church as it is now , s●nce the partitition wall is broken down , f●r then it became catholike . i conceive there were believers of the sons of keturah that d●d not partake of all the priviledges of the jewish church except they became proselytes . it is the evangelical catholike church which my question is about ; into which the jewes themselves being converted were admitted by a new initial seal , viz. baptism , and did not stand in it by their former national membership , but received a catholike membership by baptism , i conceive that a man of any nation , converted to be a visible believer is a member of the church catholike en●itive , and hereby hath right to all church priviledges that belong to the whole church , gods method us●d in the national church of the jews , b●ing in populo israelitico , m●st ●eeds differ from the method in populo catholico ; hee will finde that learned man speaking as much for my purpose as his own . they tha● boldly affirm that christs covenant , his sati●faction , his church , his sealing , extend to any more then elect , joyn with the arminians against the scripture and the most approved protestants , and the contrary contains no desperate expressions , as mr. b b●ing m●slea● speaks ▪ mr. hudsons words pag. . are not right . if any hold that the believing jews children are still churchmembers , and yet deny that the gentiles children are so hee may hold it still notwithstanding the assault made by mr. b. here . for by the taking down the partition wall , ephes. . . and the removing the enmity v. . jews and gentiles are not made one visible church after the jewish frame , but one by faith , and by it the gentiles are cl●ansed , a●●s . . not a whole nation parents and children as the jewish church , but believers repenting , acts . , . one body , one lord , one faith , one baptism , &c. eph. . . proves not the gentile and jewish church visible to be the same , but the invisible of both . gal. . . hath not a word tending to prove that there is the same reason of jews and gentiles infant visible churchmembership , but of the equal interest in christ of gentiles who are new c●eatures , as of the jews . it is no part of pauls epistles , and therefore not much of their substance to prove the taking in of the gentiles , and graffing them into the olive which the jews were of , if by it were meant the visible church jewish , but it is most palpably false . the discipling nations , the kingdoms of the world becomming christs , rev. . . prove not infant● discipleship , or churchmembership . all hitherto brought by mr. b. hath yeilded no sufficient proof , let 's view the rest . sect . lxx . mr. bs. th , and th . arg from the promise of mercy , exod. . . and of blessing , psal. . . are answered . ch. . saith mr. b. the th . arg . then is this : exod. . , . from hence i argue thus : if god have made over this mercy ( of churchmembership ) in the moral law , to the children of all that love and obey him , then it is not proper to the jews children , nor is it ceased : but god hath made over this mercy in his moral law to the children of all that love and obey him ; therefore it is not proper to the jews children , nor is it ceased . nothing but the antecedent here needeth proof . every man i think among us will confess , that the moral law was not proper to the jews , and that it is not ceased . even the most of the antinomians confess the ten commandments are in force as the law of christ , though not as the law of moses . however , if they be against the preceptive part of the law , yet sure they will not bee against the promissary part . though there be some clauses that were suted to the jews peculiarly , yet i never yet met with man that would say this was so . if the ten commandments be not currant proof , there is no disputing with them out of scripture . answ. there is need of proof of more then the antecedent to make this argument good . for . the conclusion is not that which mr. b. should prove , churchmembership and visible churchmembership , children and infant children being not all one . god may shew the mercy of churchmembership to infants , and yet not make over to them visible churchmembership , and he may make over visible churchmembership to the children of them that love him , and yet not to them in infancy . so that the conclusion may bee granted as it stands , without any impeachment to my tenet . but if it be meant of visible churchmembership of infant children , the minor is to be denied . and to the proof , . i except that this promise was proper to the jews made to back the legal covenant , and though it be a promise annexed to the observing a moral precept , yet as in the fifth commandment termed the first commandment with promise , ephes. . . so in this , the promise hath special reference to their prosperous and safe estate in canaan , in which they were continued while they kept themselves from idolatry , and on the other side expelled , captivated , enslaved , when they served idols , unto the third and fourth generation , upon which considering the time of making this promise , the usual tenour of promises in the books of moses , as deut. . , . to the same purpose , the place where this promise is put , the event which doth best expound it , and that no where under the gospel promises are made to believers children , but onely to believers themselves of evangelical mercy , yea the apostle concludes that notwithstanding the promise to abraham and his seed gen. . . and to israel , yet god hath mercy on whom hee will have mercy , and whom he will hee hardens , rom. . . i do determine ( without fear of mr. bs. censure ) that this promise was suited to the jews peculiarly . . i hence infer that if this mercy be meant of churchmembership , yet it might bee , yea was proper to the jews children . . the mercy here cannot be proved to be visible churchmembership . . that it is onely to those mens children who love him and keep his commandments , which is an invisible thing , and so whose infants are visible churchmembers by this promise cannot bee known . . that this promise is made good though it be not performed to all those that love him , nor to all their children , nor to any in infancy . . that this promise is not true without the exception of election , and the expounding of it as conditional and not absolute sith it must then follow that god exempts none yet from mercy , there being not a thousand generations from noah to this day ▪ so that till mr. b. have proved the contrary to these ( which he can never do ) his proof from hence will appear to be of no force . but let us examine what he saith . let mee try therefore whether this d . commandment in the words cited do not prove the minor : to which end i argue thus . if god have assured his mercy by promise to the children of all them that love and obey him , then he would have them be taken for members of his church . but hee hath here assured his mercy by promise to the children of them that love and obey him : therfore he would have them bee taken for churchmembers : the minor is plain in the text . the consequence of the major i prove thus : ( viz. that all those must be taken for churchmembers on whom god hath thus stated or assured his mercy by promise ) ( the word [ mercy ] i shall explain anon : ) if god have estated and assured his mercy by promise to no other society of men in the world but the church , then all those are members of the church on whom his mercy is thus estated and assured : but god hath estated and assured his mercy on no other society : therefore , &c. here let me a little explain my meaning . sometime when god promiseth mercy , it is first to some particular person or family : sometime to a whole species or sort of persons . . sometimes it is some particular named mercy , and sometime in the general naming no sort or individual mercy . . sometimes it is upon a special ground proper to some one person or to few ; and somtimes it is upon a common ground . . when the mercy is specified ▪ it is sometime meerly corporal and sometime spiritual . . and of spiritual mercies , sometime it is common to others besides the saved ; and sometime special and proper to the saved . . sometime it is mercy limi●ed to a short or certain time ; and sometime estated and assur●d for con●inuance while the law standeth . now you mu●t understand first , that god may bestow on some particular person or family , on the ground of some special service , which they or their fathers have done , or of meer mercy some special corporal blessing , especially limited to some short or certain time : and that his common preservi●g sustaining mercies are over all his works ; and and yet none of this will prove men churchmembers . . but when god doth not name any particular person or family for his mercies , but estates them on a species or sort of persons ; and when it is not a m●er corporal mercy that is so stated , but either a spiritual mercy ( common o● special ) or else mercy in the general without specification , and when this is not on any ground of any partic●lar action or service done by any particular man , but upon a ground ( or condition ) common to others not named ; and all this not li●ited to any short or certain time , but stated to continuance , and that by a legal promise assuring it , and not onely a meer offer of it , in this case it will certainely proove th●m members of the church . answ. mr. b. leav● out in the minor the term [ all ] which was in the major of the first syllogism : which if it had been put in the minor ( as it was necessary hee should do to prove the conclusion hee should prove ) it would not have been proved out of the text ; which doth not assure mercy to all the children of all that love him , but to thousan●s , that is , multitudes of the● ; and to those mercy is not assured absolutely without condition of their love of god , nor is mercy in the text promised perpetually , but as andr. rivet . on exod. . . god doth not so extend the bounds of his mercy , that hee may not also deny it to the posterity of some godly men . for these things are said of those things which for the most part happen , gods liberty beeing alwayes reserved in his judgements and the distribution of good things . so wee reade the sonnes of godly parents to have been forsaken of god and grievously punished . . the consequence of his major is denied , and to his dictates ( for proof hee brings none but his own sayings ) i answer first , by denying that all those must bee taken for visible churchmembers on whom god hath stated or assured his mercy by promise , exod. . . no not though it were stated as mr. b. would have it , no promise , no not of sanctifying grace making of it self a person a visible churchmember , as i have shewed often before . . i deny that the mercy , exod. . is stated as mr. b. imagines ; but say , . that the mercy there meant , is stated on the israelites specially . . that it is not meant of spiritual but outward mercies , not now promised to the most holy saint on earth . . that it was declared on a particular ground of gods peculiar respect to israel , whom hee brought out of egppt. . that it is limited to a certain time , while they continued to be his people , which was not to be perpetually . . i deny that the words , exod. . . deut. . . do expresly contain a promise , but onely a declaration of gods frequent dealing , which i confess , doth imply a promise , as his declaration , exod. ● . . deut. . . doth imply a threatening ; yet i think it not fit to call it a promise , sith the apostle ephes. . . termes the fifth commandment , the first commandment with promise . but mr. b. adds . now that it is the priviledge of the church onely to have god thus engaged to be mercifull to them , ( and that in a way of distinction from others , as it is in this commandment promise , ) is to me a truth beyond dispute ▪ and if any do doubt of it , i argue with them thus . . if no such promise of such mercy to any sort of men out of the church can be shewn in the scripture , then we must take it as proved that there is none : but no such promise can be shewn estating such mercy on any others ; therefore , &c. they that can shew any such promise , let them produce it . answ. the assertion is not a truth beyond dispute , but may be questioned , nor is the consequence good , there being no such declaration of god that he hath made no such promise of such mercy to any sort of men but what can be shewn in the scripture ; and if it were , yet till mr. b. hath shewed that the mercy exod . . is greater then god vouchsafes to persons out of the church visible , it may be held ( notwithstanding any thing mr. b , produceth ) that such mercy is promised to persons out of the church . however , it is most false that god hath assured his mercy on no other society then the church . if the promise , gen. . . be understood of all mankind as meant by the womans seed ( as he before in his third letter to me , and after here , ch . . expounds it ) then there is a promise of mercy stated on othe●s then the church ; and the same may be said of gen. . , , . besides what is implied in the speeches , psal. . . psal ▪ . . tim. . . till mr. b. shew a greater mercy is stated on the children of all that love god then is on cyrus , isa. . , &c. there is a promise shewn in scripture of such mercy to one out of the church . the like to nebuchadnezzar , jer. . . and the promises of calling the gentiles , of re-ingraffing the jews , rom. . , . are promises to persons out of the church , and yet of mercy , yea the chiefest mercy ; and therefore mr. bs. dictates are but vain . yet he goes on thus . . briefly consider to the contrary : . those without the church are said to be without hope , without god , strangers to the covenant of promises , ephes. . . answ. it is said of the ephesians , that they were once without hope , &c. and it is said also that they were gentiles uncircumcised ; but it doth noth not follow therefore that all gentiles uncircumcised were without christ not having hope , without god in the world : nor doth it follow , that all gentiles were out of any visible church who were uncircumcised ; nor doth it follow , they had no promises of mercy who were strangers from the covenants of promise there meant . it is true , this text proves that the estate of the gentiles afore the gospel was preached to them , was as paul describes it : yet this neither proves that there were none who were out of the commonwealth of israel , and were strangers from the covenants of promises made to israel , had no mercy assured to them equal to that , exod. ● . . . saith mr. b. the promises are all yea and amen in christ , cor. . . and christ is the head over all ( indeed but onely ) to the church , ephes. . . to his called he giveth the precious promises , pet. . . answ. the promises , cor. . . are such as were in christ , and must be understood of saving promises , which are not made to the visible church as visible , much less to the children of visible churchmembers as such , but onely to those that are of the invisible , and therefore this text proves not that no mercy such as is meant , exod. . . is assured to any society or persons but those of the visible church . the same also may be said of pet. . . where the promises are given to the effectually called , and that by them they are partakers of the divine nature . and for the other text , though there be no mention of promises in it at all , yet if any be implied , the speech is meant onely of the church of gods elect ( not the meer visible church ) which alone is his body , the fulness of him that filleth all in all ; and therefore if these texts prove no mercy promised but to the church , they prove no mercy promised but to the invisible church , which is contrary to mr. bs. purpose here . . saith he , by faith it is that promises were obtained , heb. . ▪ answ. it is said , by faith they subdued kingdomes , in the same v. and therefore after the rate of mr. bs. reasoning , none should subdue kingdomes but the church . the faith there is such a faith as the just lived by , ch . . . therefore if mr. bs. arguing be good , promises of mercy should be made to none , but those who believe with such a faith , and consequently it is not the meer visible church but the invisible onely to whom such mercy is assured . the answer is by denying the consequence , that because promises were obtained by faith , therefore mercy is not assured to any by promise but the church . . he adds . to abraham and his seed were the promises made , gal. . . both common and special : the children of the promise are accounted for the seed , rom. . . therefore if those without the church were children of the promise , then they should be the seed . the promise is sure to all the seed , rom. . . the promise is to you and your children , and as many as the lord shall call , acts . . the seed are heirs of the promise . answ. mr. bs. needlesness still appears . he should prove , that such mercy as he conceives promised exod. . . ( which he will not avouch to be saving mercy ) is assured to none but the church , and he means the visible church : but here he brings promises of saving mercy , which he dare not say to be made to the children of all that love him , exod. . . and are indeed made onely to those who are of the invisible church , and therefore impertinently alledged , the promises , gal. . . are such as are made to christ either personal for his body mystical , or to christ mystical , and the promises are those by which is the inheritance , v. . righteousness by faith , v. , ▪ which can be true onely of the elect , and so that , v. . if ye be christs , then are ye abrahams seed , and heirs according to the promise . so rom. . . is meant onely of true believers , and rom. . . of the elect onely . now it 's not denied , that the promises of righteousness and life belong onely to the church invisible ; but these promises are far different from the promise to the children of them that love god , exod. . . which mr. b. will have onely meant of the visible church , and of things much below saving benefits . the text , acts . . it as impertinently alledged , as hath been proved at large before , the promise there being not meant of any visible priviledge , nor the fathers there considered as believers , or lovers of god , but as crucifiers of christ , and the promise not said to be to any of either sort , but those who were called by god. . saith mr. b. the church is the house and family of god , and the promises are his treasure , and christs legacies , and the word of promise is his testament ; therefore not for these without . the church is the pillar and ground of truth , and the word is the truth . in the middest of the church are gods praises , heb. . . therefore in the church are his mercies and promises . it is by the church that the man●fold wisdome of god is known , eph. . ● . the church onely is that body whereof the lord of the promises is head , col. . . answ. the promises of saving benefits are gods treasure , and belong onely to the invisible church ; but it follows not therefore that god makes no promise , or the mercy exod. . . belongs to none out of the visible church . let it be yeelded , the church is the pillar of truth , and the word is the truth ; yet that god makes no promises to cyrus , nebuchadnezzar , and others out of the church , or that his promise to them is not true , or that he vouchsafes no mercy to them , follows not . god is praised in the church , and his counsel made known , and christ the head of the church onely , and yet all praise , promise , and mercy not appropriate to the church . . yet again . they that are not in covenant , are not under the promises of this mercy , or have not this mercy stated on them by promise : but those that are without the church are not in covenant . this argument is past contradiction . no man dare say but these are covenant mercies in this promise mentioned . wicked men in the church are within the covenant , as i have proved in the appendix of my aphorisms ; but those without are not in covenant , though they may have some conditional promises offered . the covenant and such promises as those go together : therefore it is called the covenant of promises , eph. . . rom. . , . so is mercy onely assured by the covenant ▪ deut. . , . and that to the church onely , kings . . neh. . . & . . mic. . . luke . , . pet. . . many more scriptures shew the conjunction between gods mercy and covenant ; and most certainly they are all out of covenant that are out of the visible church . answ. if paedobaptists had not a mind to mock rather then to teach people by their writings , me thinks being so often called upon to speak distinctly what covenant they mean , when they say infants and visible churchmembers are in covenant , and in what manner they are in covenant by gods act , their own , or the baptizers , they would still when they speak of being in covenant clear their meaning . there are divers covenants of god ; that with noah , gen. . that with abraham , gen. . that with the jews , exod. . the new covenant , heb. . , , , . being in covenant must needs come from their own act of covenanting , and then the sense is , wicked men in the church are within the covenant , that is , they promise to god : but in this sense no infant is in covenant with god ; fo● no infant promiseth to god. or being in covenant is from gods act of promising , and thus it is most certainly false that they are all out of covenant that are out of the visible church : for all men and beasts are in the covenant with noah , gen. . , . mr. b. himself saith thus in his appendix to his aphorisms , answ to the th . object . p. . there is a covenant betwixt god and every living creature . if i sho●ld instance in all the promises made to ahab , nebuchadnezzar , cyrus , darius , &c. it would be tedious . the jews not yet re-ingraffed , nor of the visible church , are certainly in covenant in this sense , rom. . , . isaac , jacob , afore they were born were in covenant , and so all elect infants in their mothers womb , and men of years yet in infidelity a●e within the covenant of evangelical grace , even the new covenant , heb. . though not in the visible church . the minor therefore of mr. bs. argument is so far from being p●st contradiction , that it is in my apprehension manifestly false . i grant all mercies mentioned in any promise are covenant mercies ; but for the mercy , exod. . . it seems mr. b cannot tell what it is , though he tell us on his word it is more then corporal , if not special . now he saith , appendix , p. ● ▪ sam. . , , , . the spirit of god and other f●vours are promised to saul . and sure as much is promised to cyrus , isa. . & . , &c. as was to saul . wicked men in the visible church , continuing so to the end , neither are , nor ever were in the covenant of evangelical grace , or new covenant , though they have been in the covenants with noah , and some other covenants , in some of which also wicked men without the visible church have been . the covenants of promise ( not as mr. b. reads it , the covenant of promises , ephes. . . ) were as it is most likely the covenants gen. . exod. . and the meaning of the apostle in saying the ephesians were strangers from them , seems to be , that they were not acquainted with them , and therefore in appearance further from god , as in like manner their uncircumcision and alienation from the policy of israel , are alledged to the same purpose . and yet when they were made believers , and were in the visible ch●rch , they were in neither covenant as there is meant , i mean , they were not in the covenant made to abraham , gen. . as it did contain special promises made to his natural seed , nor in the covenant made at horeb any more then they were circumcised or in the policy of israel . rom. . , . hath nothing of covenants or promises , but what is v. . is often before shewed to be meant of the covenants and promises peculiar to the israelites ; and therefore , though the covenant and such promises go together , yet therein is nothing which pertains to the visible churchmembership of our children , those who are now in the church being not in those covenants which were peculiar to the israelites . 't is true the mercy meant deut. . . was assured by covenant , but that covenant was v. . it which god sware to the fathers , which so far as it was evangelical , belongs onely to the elect whether of jews or gentiles , so far as political to the hebrews onely . the same i say of kings . . nehem. . . & . . mic. . ● . the texts luk. . . . pet. . . are plainly meant of saving mercy , and of the elect or invisible church onely . so that though i grant a conjunction between gods mercy and covenant , and that saving mercy is assured onely by the covenant to the church invisible onely , yet i deny that god is in covenant with none but those of the visible church , that god hath not promised such mercy as is meant exod. . . to any but in the visible church , that what continuance of mercy is assured exod. . . to posterity is assured to believers children now as it was to the israelites , that they are all visible churchmembers to whom that mercy is assured , and therefore infer that the pretended ordinance of infants visible churchmembership hath no footing in that text . mr. b takes up●n him to answer some objections , but very lamely . if any ob●ect , saith he , that this promise is to the children of them onely that love him and keep his commandments ; and wee know not who those be ; i answer , it is true , but though god make the promise onely to such , yet quoad nos , it belongeth to others ; that is , wee are bound to deal with all those that profess love and obedience by a serious probable profession , as if they were truly what they profess : this i shall prove afterwards . he that hath the face to say that god estateth here his mercy on the children of those that love , and obey him , and yet taketh them not for so much as members of the visible church , hath too hard a forehead for me to dis●ute it with any further . answ. though wee are to take such professours by a judgement of charity to have such love , and title to the promise , and are to exhibit all such offices of love as we are bound to by such a love as is due to them that truly love god , yet we are not bound to take them for visible church-members by that judgment of charity , but by a judgment of certainty sensibly perceiving their profession ; nor are we to take their children as visible churchmembers no not by paedobaptists own grounds , for they are not so but upon their parents real love , they being not visible church-members but by the covenant which belongs not to them except they do truly love god , and not in shew onely , which is to bee known by a judgement of certainty not of charity onely , and that being not attainable it is not by mr. bs. own grounds knowable that any infant is a visible churchmember . what he saith he shall prove afterwards hath been examined already in the first part of this review sect . . i am not moved by mr. bs. censure , but take it for a speech of a man who loves to talk confidently when hee disputes weakly , like those who set out weak members with much bumbast . he adds . some may object , . that they know not what mercy it is that is here promised , whether common or special : to which i answer : what if they know not ? yet it is mercy ▪ and more then corporal if not special ; what if god promise onely in general to bee to them a merciful god ? sure it affordeth us ground of confidence and comfort : as it would do to a poor man to have a prince promise to be merciful to him and his children . answ. that the mercy exod. . . is more then corporal , if not special is ●aid , but not proved by mr. b. that he dare so confidently assert infants visible churchmembership from a promise of mercy which hee cannot certainly resolve of what mercy it is , shews hee hath a bo●d face not fit for a man that seeks for truth . especially if it be considered that no promise of it self doth make a man actually a visible churchmember , no not of faith or profession , or visible churchmembership . for a promise assures a futurity , put 's not a thing in present being . 't is true a promise gives ground of confidence and comfort , that the thing shall be in its due time which is promised , but a promise of any mercy in general cannot assure the futurity of visible churchmembership , no not though it were of more then corporal or special mercy , and therefore this argument his own words do sufficiently evince to bee onely added to make a number without strength . . saith he , they may object , that it is uncertain , what is meant by a thousand generations : whether it be the remote or the nearest progeny . to which i answer : . i judge it to be onely to the immediate children of godly or ungodly parents , that the promise and threat in this commandment is made to ; else there would bee a contradiction between them . for if the third generation of a wicked man should have godly parents between , then the promise would belong to them , and consequently not the threat ; and so on the other side . the meaning seems plainly to me to be this , that god will encrease the punishment of the children of ungodly parents according as they succeed their parents , remembring the sins of the grand-fathers in punishing their children ( they being still the children onely of the wicked . ) and that he will multiply mercies on the posterity of the righteous , the more still because they had righteous progenitors , supposing still that they are the children of such . answ. to interpret a thousand generations or the third and fourth by one onely , is such a piece of arithmetick as i should conceive none but an ideot or natural fool would use . the imagined contradiction is easily avoided by conceiving , that it is not a plain promise or threat of what god will constantly do , but a declaration of what hee doth often , or in some cases ; which exposition is confirmed from hence , in that we see so much variation in gods dealings , as necessitates us so to limit it . though josiah were a godly prince , yet god would not shew mercy to his sons , and though manasseh repented , yet for his sins wrath fell on his posterity and the whole people . but let mr. bs. interpretation , or mine ▪ or any others be righter , yet the speech must needs have such limitations as wil disable it from yeilding a certain rule , whereby the children of all visible professors visible churchmembership may bee proved , and therefore it is frivolously alledged by mr. b. to that end . . saith he , but i further answer : what if this were not understood ? must wee therefore reject that which may bee understood ? there is somewhat doubtfull in the text , viz. what mercy it is particularly ? and to how many generations ? if ungodly progenitors intervene ? and there is somewhat beyond doubt in the text , that is ▪ that god estateth his mercy on the immediate off-spring of his people . now must i throw away that which is past doubt because of that which is doubtfull ? so we may throw away all the scriptures . answ. we must not reject that which may be understood , nor must we wrest the scripture to infer from it that which cannot be inferred , but omit the allegation of doubtful texts , and urge that which is certain . that which hee conceives undoubted is i conceive uncertain , that god estateth his mercy on the immediate off spring of his people . the instance of josiah●s children is sufficient to sh●w it not to bee universally true . that which he acknowledgeth doubtfull is enough to shew , that nothing can be from this text certainly inferd for mr. bs. purpose , and therefore in the close of this chapter mr. b. confesseth that which is sucifficient to shew , that the visible churchmembership of all infants of godly parents much less of meer professors , cannot bee gathered from exod. . . i pass on to the next . ch. . he saith thus . the th . arg . is drawn from psal. . . [ his seed is blessed ] that is the righteous mans seed ; whence i argue as before : if god by his unchanged law and promise , have pronounced the seed of the righteous blessed , then certainly they are members of his visible church . but hee here pronounceth them blessed ; therefore , &c. . i have proved before that hee hath so done by no society out of the church : they that say he ha●h pronounced any other society blessed , let them shew it . but it is absurd once to imagine that god should pronounce a society blessed , and yet take them for none of his visible church . . that this promise is an unchangeable promise , i take for past doubt , till mr. t. shew me where it is repealed a little better then he hath shewed mee the repeal of infants church-membership . it is made to the righteous and their seed in general , and not to the jews onely : it is writ●en in the book of psalms from whence christ and his apostles fetch many texts for confirmation of their doctrine . and if it had been spoken but to the jews , yea or to one particular person , yet if it cannot be proved to bee restrained to them as being from a reason proper to them , the scripture teacheth us to apply it to all the people of god , heb. . . the apostle applieth that to all believers , which was spoken onely to joshua , i will never leave thee nor forsake thee . so heb. . . from psal. . heb. . , . rom. . . answ. . that the speech psal. . . compared with v. . seems rather to be a narration of what the psalmist found by experience , then a promise of god. nevertheless sith there are promises to like purpose elsewhere , as psal. . . prov. . . i will not deny the speech psal. . ▪ to imply a promise , nor will i say god hath revoked ( or as mr. bs. language is ) repealed it . . nor will i say that this promise was proper to the jews , though i conceive that the promises to posterity have more reference to the israelites then other people by vertue of the national and legal covenants made to that people , and i think mr. bs. reason of no force , that it is not made to the jews onely , because it is written in the book of the psalms ; for promises proper to them are there , as psal. . , , &c. psal. . , &c. . i deny not promises to one particular person may be safely applied oft times to others . . i deny that when psal. . . it is said his seed is blessed , and psal. . . the generati●n of the righteous shall be blessed , this must be understood of every one of their seed , or at all times , as in their infancy , the speech being true onely of that which happens often , though not always . mr. b. himself , p. . saith , even as when he saith [ the seed of the righteous are blessed ] he doth not tie himself to make every one blessed with his special blessing , though he do it ordinarily . and therefore it is most frivolously alledged to prove an ordinance of every infants visible churchmembership unrepealed , though the parent be no righteous person , but a visible professour , and very vicious , even an enemy to godliness . . there 's not a word that intimates any society here pronounced blessed , much less the society of the church . nor doth the term [ blessed ] prove it must be meant of the church . for others then the church and churchmembers are sometimes blessed , as psal. . . psal. . mr. b. here ch . . they that dash the children of babylon against the stones are blessed , psal. . . luke . . . mr. b. himself tels us , p. . that he affirms onely a certa●nty of churchmembership , and a strong probability of the justification of the infants of the righteous . but if we urge the word strictly , they onely are blessed whose sins are forgiven , psal. . . rom. . , . and therefore this text may as soon prove justification of every righteous mans seed ( which mr. b. asserts not ) as visible churchmembership . yea , no where is any termed blessed by reason of his visible churchmembership , but many times for their outward prosperity , as psal. . . deut. . , &c. gen. . . & . , . and that in this respect the blessing is meant , psal. . . may be gathered . from the constant tenour of the promises made to the righteous and their seed , which either are altogether or for the most part in blessings of this life , and accordingly the performance : . because in the new testament in which spiritual blessings are assured , there i● no promise of them to a believer and his seed , but to believers onely : . the occasion and series of the text , psal. . , . leads plainly to this sense , that the righteous is not so forsaken , nor his seed , as to be destitute of bread , that though he be mercifull and lendeth , yet his seed is blessed with sufficient provision of outward things : . the texts , psal. . . psal. . , , , . psal. . . lead us to this sense . from all which i answer by denying the consequence of the major in mr. bs. argument , and to his proof say , that it is no absurdity to pronounce persons blessed , and yet ●●ne of gods visible church . sect . lxxi . mr. th . arg . from the priority of infants churchmembership before circumcision . his th . from gods proneness to mercy : his th . from blessing and cursing , deut. . are answered . mr. b. proceeds thus , ch . . the th . arg . is this : if infants were churchmembers before ever circumcision was instituted , then certainly it was not proper to the jews , and consequently not ceased according to mr. t. his own doctrine : but infants were churchmembers before circumcision was instituted ; therefore it was not proper to the jews , nor is ceased . here at our dispute mr. t. seemed to yeeld all , if i would prove infants were churchmembers before circumcision . ans. so far as i can discern by my memory and such notes i have of the dispute , this was my concession , that if mr. b. would prove admission of infants as churchmembers before circumcision , i should yeeld to what he averred , that the law and ordinance of infants as visible churchmembers was not repealed ▪ yet i confess , by reason of mr. bs. quickness of speech , his unheeded altering terms , using often [ visible churchmembers ] for [ admission as visible churchmembers ] which in that time in the conflict of dispute i did not always take notice of , or through weariness mention , it not to be unlikely i did say as mr. b. saith i did . however by my writings it app●ars this is and was my constant judgement , that infants were visible members of no church but that of the hebrews , nor such till by gods call of abraham and his house they were taken to be his separated people ; and that infants were not admitted visible churchmenbers , nor any law of admission till that of circumcision , gen. . mr. b. adds . but in his sermon since among much of the same stuff , he made the poor deluded people believe ( i mean those that will believe him ) that by infants being churchmembers , i mean nothing else but that they suck of the brests of godly parents , and are brought up in the family of godly parents ; just as in our dispute he would have faced me down , before thousands of people , that by churchmembership i meant nothing but circumcision ; i told him i did not , and he told the people still that i did . is it any intemperance or harshness upon such dealings to say , that it is sad that ( i will not say eminent holiness , but ) a very little tenderness of conscience , and fear of god , and love of truth or charity to a brother , yea or common modesty should not restrain this ! but that mr. t. durst , first , take on him to search the heart , and know a mans thoughts to be contrary to his pr●fession ; secondly , and contrary to the plain sense of his terms of speech ; thirdly , and perswades multitudes of people that it is so . what hope can i have that ever mr. t. should be brought to the truth , when he hath not ability enough to understand what is the meaning of [ a member of the visible church ] and that after i had so fully told him ! i was long before i could get him to confess , that circumcision and churchmembership were two things , and separable , till i gave him instance in women . answ. . in the dispute i confess i did conceive that mr. b. could mean nothing but the command of circumcision by his ordinance of infants visible churchmembership , not imagining that he should magnifie such a toy , as he hath in his letter to me devised from gen. . , . & . . &c. which , and not defect of truth , tenderness of conscience , modesty , or charity ( in all which whether of us be defective the lord will judge ) made me so confident he did mean as i then said . . but that i ever said in my sermon , that by infants being churchmembers he meant nothing else but that they suck the brests of godly parents , and are brought in the family of godly parents , i do not yet believe . this i might , and i think did say , and do say it again , that i knew no sign whereby infants are visible churchmembers , except those be signs which are mentioned . . that i was long in yeelding the separation of circumcision and visible churchmembership , it was because i conceived that he meant infants of o●her people besides the circumcised , were visible churchmembers ▪ but when i found he meant that they were distinct and separable in the people of the jews , i yeelded it . he proceeds thus . and now must i be fain to shew , that churchmembership is neither sucking the brest of a godly woman , nor being brought in the family ? what a hard word is this [ churchmember ? ] when i know not possibly how to speak it plainer . why , sir , where is the difficulty ? is it in the word church ? i suppose we are agreed what a church visible is ? at least you understand it ? or is it in the term [ member ? ] why , do you not know what a [ member ] is ? how understand you pauls discourse about the members and body ? do you understand what is totum aggregatum & pars totius ? do yo● understand what it is to be a member of a city , or of a family ? and why not of a church ? if i say children are members of this kingdome ( or ( to please you ) commonwealth ) or if i say children are members of every city in the land , and of every family where they are , this is all true ; and me thinks a man of your parts should understand it ▪ and why not when i say , that infants are members of the church ? but if you will not understand , there is no remedy . answ. that mr. b. and i are not agreed what a visible church is , hath appeared before in the d . part of this review , sect . . i think i understand others when they speak of a visible churchmember and i think i now understand mr. b. but in the dispute i confess i did not understand mr. b. when he termed infants visible churchmembers , not because of the difficulty of the thing , but because mr. b. had a language ( as i then imagined , and now find ) of his own , of a mediate disciple and a visible churchmember by anothers faith , without any note in their persons whereby they are discernable sensibly to be christians more then infidels children : nor did he in the dispute or since clear it to me , that anothers faith could be a form o● note whereby an infant might be denominated or discerned sensibly to be a visible christian churchmember , or a disciple of christ. this if he shall yet do , i shall not trouble him to shew that churchmembership is neither sucking of the brest , nor being brought up in a godly family , but shall ( passing by his jeer at the parliaments altering the term kingdome into commonwealth ) confess infants members of the visible church as of civil kingdomes and cities . till then , i take mr. bs. language of infants discipleship and visible churchmembership by a promise and parents faith to be frivolous gibberish and false doctrine . but mr. b. attempts to prove his minor , . from mal. . . where he would have [ a seed of god ] to be visible churchmembers . but . he no where shews this to be the sense : . this is not the sense : for here the proper end of marriage is expressed , which is common to believers and infidels . but it is not the end of the marriage of infidels to seek a seed which should be churchmembers visible or invisible , neither their nor any others marriage is to propagate godliness or the profession of it , but to propagate a legitimate posterity , who are called , a seed of god , because according to his institution . but of this interpretation i need say no more then what is said in answer to mr. m. in the first part of this review , sect . . and to mr. bs. exception against my interpretation here , in the th . section . . because infants in abrahams family were churchmembers before circumcision . which i grant after the time of abrahams call , and gods separating his house to be his people ; and therefore if limited to the space of time between abrahams call , gen. . and the institution of circumcision , gen. . i should grant the minor in mr. bs. argument , and deny the consequence of the major . nevertheless in the proof of his minor there are sundry things , which i think not meet to pass by without animadversion . . that which he saith circumcision did not not make infants churchmembers , i grant it ; yet it made them visible churchmembers , though not of it self alone , yet with other signs : so that although i deny not other signs also to have concurred , yet this sign in part made them visible members of that church . . when he saith the covenant maketh churchmembers , how far it is true is shewed above at large , and withal how mr. b. is mistaken in making it the sole efficient cause . . if it be true that circumcision is but a sign of the covenant ( as he saith ) how is it a seal ( as is commonly asserted and by mr. b. himself ) as somewhat more then a bare sign ? . if it be not a sign chiefly of that covenant which maketh churchmembers , but which promised abraham the extraordinary priviledges after his believing , then it is some other covenant which circumcision was chiefly a sign of , then the covenant which maketh churchmembers ; which being as i conceive the covenant of grace in christ , it follows , . that the covenant , gen. . according to mr. b. was not the covenant of grace . : that it promised extraordinary priviledges to abraham . . that circumcision was chiefly a sign of this promise , and consequently the use of circumcising infants was not out of a reason common to believers infants , but peculiar to abraham and his seed , which cross sundry of paedobaptists prime hypotheses . . neither doth the apostle say , rom. . that the promise went before circumcision ; nor doth it follow , if he did , that churchmembership then went before it . . it may be , and by learned men is questioned , whether the infants or the parents be termed the breakers of gods covenant , gen. . . and if they were , it follows not they were of that people and in the covenant before , the breaking the covenant being not a breaking off from being in covenant , but a breaking of gods command in that covenant ; and their cu●ting off from gods people , might be by preventing from being gods people , as well as by making them not his people who were . . though the scripture do not intimate , that abrahams family was then first made a church , yet in calling that church the circumcision , it intimates , that then when they were circumcised they were solemnly declared to be gods people : and if the scrip●ure do not intimate , that then infants were first admitted members , as mr. b. saith here , it will concern him to shew where the scripture intimates their admission before , and how . i did conceive by mr. bs. words , p. . and elsewhere , that as he now avoucheth no other way by precept or example of admission but by baptism , so he avouched formerly no other way but by circumcision ▪ i wish he had in the beginning told us his mind plainly , the concealing of which in the dis●ute , and since , hath occasioned the misleading of many , and a great part of my trouble . . mr. b. argues thus . that infants were churchmembers before circumcision , i prove most likely thus : if god had before the same tender love to the faithfull and their seed as he had after , and there be no mention in scripture when the churchmembership of infants did begin ( since the first infants ) then we are to judge that it did not begin at the institution of circumcision ( but rather with the first infant of faithfull adam , though he after fell off ) because gods love to the faithfull and their seed , was as great before as after : but the antecedent is true ▪ therefore the consequent . he that will prove a beginning of infants churchmembership since the first infants , let him bring any scripture or good reason for it , and i will believe him ( which i never ex●ect to be done ) answ. . this reason , if it were good , might as well prove the invisible as well as visible churchmembership of all infants of believers , and the visible churchmembership of the seed unborn as well as born , and of the most open profane children of believers , as well a● the youngest children born into the world . . the love of god was never to the faithfull and their seed universally , i mean the special distinguishing love of god , nor to any of them but according to his election of grace . . god might and did love the faithfull and their seed , and yet the infant seed were not visible churchmembers afore abrahams time . . the reason of that regard god had to abrahams inheriting posterity to take their infants for visible churchmembers , was from his peculiar d●sign he had on that people to make them the people from whom his sons comming should be expected , which he vouchsafed not to believers of other people , whom yet he loved and their seed in respect of gospel mercies . . the beginning of infants visible churchmembership is sufficiently shewed b●fore , in that it is not shewed to have been any where but in the hebrew nation . . if adams infants , he standing in integrity , had been visible churchmembers , yet they had been such onely in the church by nature , which is nothing to the present point of visible churchmembership in the church instituted by electing some to be of the church , and some not . from hence i answer to the argument , . by denying the antecedent , that there is no mention in the scripture when the churchmembership visible of infants did begin . . the consequence of the major , if it did not , it proves not the visible churchmembership of infants afore abrahams time , much less from adams crea●ion , sith then there was no such church to be as now we enquire ●f , and gods love might be to believers seed , and yet they no visible church-members . the last argument , whereby mr. b. would evince infants visible churchmembership before abrahams time , which he saith here he had not leisure to improve largely , he hath , in his letter to me before recited , i think to the utmost he could , urged it , and the answer thereto is fully made here , sect . , , , , , . and thereby it may appear , not onely to a man of common sense , but of acute sense , that there is likelihood that infants should be visible churchmembers in abraham● family , and yet not in the foregoing patriarchs , and that from the scripture , and yet gods love as great to noah , sem , and their seed as to others . nor is it true that all these churchmercies are bestowed upon the standing gospel grounds of the covenant of grace entred wi●● our first parents presently upon the fall , but visible churchmembership of infants was upon the special transeunt fact of god in taking the hebrew nation to bee his people . and though the promise gen. . . comprehend infants , yet not all infants ; and i wonder how mr. b. beeing a man of common sense , should not discern that if hee will have the whole seed of the woman comprized in the promise gen. . ▪ and that they are thereby churchmembers , hee must baptise all the posterity of eve , which hee makes a thing to bee avoided p. . and gives cautions against it . and it is to me a sign of his palpable inconsiderateness in this his hasty scribling , that he cites revel . . . to prove satans enmity against the whole seed of the woman , against our infants no doubt ▪ when the woman , revel . . . is not eve , as gen. . . but the woman cloathed with the sunne ▪ commonly conceived to represent the chr●stian church , and the seed are said to keep the commandments of god , and to have the testimony of jesus christ , which cannot bee said of infants . but i leave him to the lord to give him either repentance for his abuse of scripture and perverting the truth , or to let him fill up the measure of his iniquity , and proceed to the next . ch. . arg . th . if god bee not more prone to severity then to mercy , then hee will admit of infants to bee members of the visible church . but god is not more prone to severity then to mercy : therefore he will admit of infants to be visible churchmembers . all that needs proof here is the consequence of the major proposition , which is made evident thus : god hath cut off multitudes of infants of wicked men , both from the church and from life ( for the sins of their progenitors ) therefore if he should not admit some infants of faithful men , so much as into the visible church , then hee should bee more prone to severity then to mercy : ( except it bee proved that god giveth some greater mercy out of the church , which is not yet proved : ) all the children of dathan and abiram and their accomplices , were swallowed up with them for their rebellion , and so cut off both from the church and life . achans sons and daughters were all stoned and burned for his sin , and so cut off both from the church and life , jos. . , ●● ▪ yea it was the stablished law of god concerning any city that shou●d serve other gods ( by the sed●cement of whomsoever ) that is , if they should break the covenant ( for the covenant is that they take god onely for ●heir god ) then that city should wholly be destroyed , and not so much as the infants spared , deut. . , , . &c. and god concludeth it in his moral law , that he will visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate him . all the infants of amalek are slain with the parents by gods command , num. . . they that dash the children of babylon against the stones are blessed , psal. . . the children of daniels accusers are cast unto the lions , dan. . . yea god commanded israel to save the life of no one infant of all the nations that were given them for inheritance ; the hittites , amorites , canaanites , perezites , the hivites and jebusites , deut. . , . ( how all this is reconciled with that of eze. [ the son shal not bear the iniquity of the father ] is shewed by our divines that write on the d . com. ) and if god will not admit the infants of believers so much as to bee members of his visible church , or kingdom , then hee should not onely shew more severity to the seed of the wicked , then mercy to the seed of the faithful ; but should even cast out all infants in the world from being in any visible state of church mercies . and how that will stand with the tenderness of his compassions to the godly and their seed , and the many promises to them , and the enlargement of grace in gospel times i know not . answ. . the speech of gods proneness to mercy more then severity , is according to my apprehension of gods attributes not right , nor however it may pass among the vulgar is it true in exact speech , such as should be used in disputes ▪ for though i acknowledge justice vindicative to be natural in god , and goodness ; yet the term of proneness to severity , intimates an inclination or desire to it , which is stopped by a contrary inclination ; whereas gods attributes are all equally in him , nor hath he any propensity of desires to exercise one more then another , but he doth work all things according to the counsel of his own will. . it is falsly supposed , as if visible churchmembership were an act of remunerative mercy and not the taking of infants into visible church-membership , were an act of severity against the infant for the parents sin , whereas the taking or not taking into visible churchmembership i● as election to eternal life , or reprobation an act of soveraignty and liberty , which god useth as hee pleaseth without respect to any persons or parents good or bad actions . . it is also as falsly supposed that by not taking infants into visible churchmembership they are cast out from being in any visible state of churchmercies . for their being in the families of the godly though not visible churchmembers , puts them into a visible state of churchmercies , even as well as if they were taken to be visible churchmembers and baptised . . that god giveth some greater mercy then visible churchmembership , to wit , eternal life , out of the church visible is easily proved in that he saves elect infants which die in the womb , are abortives , or still born . and if mr. b. do deny it hee must hold a tenet like the papists , that without his visible churchmembersh●p infants are damned . . the grace of god in gospel times is enlarged in the extent of it to all nations , in the doctrine of the gospel concerning the messiah comen already , freedom from the bondage of the law , in the powring out of the spirit , in the new covenant ▪ &c. although infants be not visible churchmembers . . gods tenderness of compassions to the godly and their seed may and doth stand with the non-visible membership of their infants in the christian church , it being not out of any defect of mercy in god , or deprivation of mercy to them , which they may not have without it , but because it is his good pleasure that the church christian should not bee by natural descent , but by faith , not national but of believers of all nations . . how god is said to admit into visible churchmembership infants needs explication , admission , as i have hitherto conceived it , beeing the act of the administratour of baptism , according to mr. bs. doctrine pag. . and therefore his conclusion seems to have this sense , that god will baptise some infants with water , which is a fri●olous conceit . . if mr. bs. suppositions on which his argument rests should bee granted him , the conclusion should bee rather , that god will not permit the infants of the godly to bee put to death , but will keep them alive from the hands of persecutors , for otherwise hee should be more prone to severity to the wicked , then to mercy to the godly and their seed . for all the instances hee gives of gods severity to the children of wicked men is in the taking away of their natural lives ; and therefore his inference if there were any force in it , would conc●ude not the visible churchmembership of the infants of the godly , but the preservation of their liv●s in common calamities and persecutions ; which it is certain he doth not , but as the wiseman saith all things happen alike to alike to all , eccles. . . which things being premised , thoug● the minor of m. ●s . first syllogism may be well questioned , yet waving it , i de●y the consequences of the major in both the syllogisms , which rest on such futile dictates as he hath not proved , except by saying he knows not how it should be otherwise , which seems to intimate this fond conceit of himself , as if none could know what he doth not . he goes on in his frivolous arguings thus . ch . the th . arg . i draw from deut. . , , . those that keep the covenant are [ blessed in the fruit of their body ; ] and of covenant-breakers it is said [ cursed sh●lt thou be in the fruit of thy body ; thy sons and thy daughters shall be given to another people , and thy ey● shall look , and ●a●l with longing for them , &c. thou shalt beget sons and daughters , but thou shalt not enjoy them , for they shall go into captivity . the argument that i fetch hence is this . that doctrine which maketh the children of the faithful to be in a worse condition ( or as bad ) then the curse in deut. . doth make the children of covenant ▪ breakers to be in is false doctrine : but that doctrine which denieth the infants of the faithful to be visible churchmembers , doth make them to bee in as bad or a worse condition then is threatned by that curse deut. . therefore it is false doctrine . the major is undeniable . the minor i prove thus : the curse on the children deut. . is , that they go into captivity : now to bee put out of the whole visible church of christ is a sorer curse then to go into captivitie : therefore that doctrine which puts infants out of the church , doth make them in a more accursed state then those in deut. . they might bee churchmembers in captivity as their parents were ; or if they were not , yet it was no worse then this ; to bee in captivity is but a bodily judgement directly ; but to bee out of the church is directly a spiritual judgement : therefore to bee out of the church , is a greater judgement ( which i must take for granted , having before proved that it is far better to bee in the visible church then out . ) answ the minor of the first and sec●nd syllogism are both denied . for though to be put out of the whole visible church of christ , either by just excommunication or voluntary desertion is a heavie curse , yet to be put out doctrinally , that is , to teach that infants are not visible christian churchmembers is not to put them under any curse at all , neither is it to be so , any judgement spiritual or bodily , nor are they in any better case by their being accounted visible churchmembers and baptised then they are without both , nor hath mr. b. proved any such thing before , but what he hath scribled to that purpose is before shewed to bee vain . another argument , saith hee , this text would afford in that the judgement on the children is part of the curse on the parents ( cursed shalt thou bee in the fruit of thy body ) now god doth not curse the faithful ; but hath taken off the curse by christ ( though corporal afflictions are left . ) but i must haste . answ. that non-visible churchmembership of infants now is any part of judgement or curse for the parents sin hath not the least colour of proof from this text or any other . the purport of the whole chapter is quite besides the present business , it being to assure the israelites of prosperity in canaan , while they kept gods commandments and adhered to him , and curses on them and theirs , if they fell off from god ; the curses are for the most part corporal and on the israelites , and therefore the thing belongs not to the present point , nor is it true that always the judgment on the children is part of the curse on the parents neither in corporal nor spiritual evils . and though the truly faithful are not cursed with the great curse of condemnation , yet those that are onely so visibly may bee so , yea and the faithfull themselves are not altogether free from some curses both on themselves and their children , as on the other side , wicked men may have some blessings on them and their children . mr. b. himself said in the next ch . . before , they that dash the children of babylon against the stones are blessed , psal. . yet were they idolaters . christ hath taken off the curse opposite to the blessing of righteousness , gal. . , , . not every curse from the faithfull . out of all which i infer , that were it granted that the non-visible churchmembership of infants were a judgement for the parents sin , and that christ hath taken off the curse from the faithfull , yet it would not follow , that believing ▪ parents infants must be christian visible churchmembers , sith some curses still stay on the children for the parents sin : yea , mr. b. before in his letter tels me , that it was determined in one of their private disputes ( by himself no doubt , the dr. of the chair in the colledge of worcestershire ministers at kidderminster ) that the sins of nearer parents are imputed as part of our original or natural guilt . i hast after mr. b. sect . lxxii . mr. th . arg. ch . from the absurdity of my doctrine making all infants to be members of the visible kingdome of the devil , is answered . ch. . saith he , the th . arg . that doctrine which maketh all infants to be members of the visible kingdome of the devil , is false doctrine : but that doctrine which denieth any infants to be members of the visible church , doth make them all members of the visible kingdome of the ●evil : therefore it is false doctrine . mr. t. taketh the like reasoning hainously from mr. m. as if were injurious so to charge him : and he saith , . consequences remote must not be fastened on men when they deny them ▪ . many unbaptized are not in the visible kingdome of the devil ; and asketh , whether children be in or out of that kingdome before baptism : if out , then by not baptizing he leaves them not in it , &c ▪ to this i answer , . he that saith , infants are all shut out of heaven , may well be charged for teaching that they go to 〈◊〉 because the consequence is not remote , but direct , among th●se that acknowledge not a third place . . i will onely lay a true charge on the doctrine and not the persons : the doctrine sure may be charged with the consequences , though the person may not . . it is not your denial of baptism directly , that leaveth infants in the visible kingdome of the devil ; but your denial of their churchmembership : therefore to those vain passages i answer , that it 's true , that many unbaptized are in the kingdome of christ , and so many infants also ; and so not in the visible kingdome of the devil : but that no man who is known to be out of christs visible church , ordinarily can be out of satans visible kingdome , i shall now prove ; and so that your doctrine is guilty of making ( i mean not really but doctrinally making ) all infants to be members of satans visible kingdome , in that you deny any infants to be members of the visible church . answ. . that which i said about remote consequences not to be charged on men as their sentence , was spoken not from his charge of leaving all the infants to have their actual standing in the visible kingdome of the devil , but of putting them all out of the covenant of grace ; and this was made the bloudy sentence of the anabaptists , though no such thing can be proved of them by any of their sayings . and therefore the two answers here of mr. b. are impertinent , my speeches being about another point , though perhaps somewhat like it , and charged on us with it . and to mr. bs. answers i reply , . mr. b. seems to me to oppose ineptly a direct consequence to a remote , whereas a near consequence is opposed to a remote , not a direct ; for a remote consequence may be direct ▪ as well as a near . but it is frequent with mr. b. to abuse words . . if a person acknowledge a third place they that shut infants out of heaven may not be charged with it as their sentence , that they go to hell , which mr. bs. limitation intimates he acknowledgeth . and then by like reason this is not to be charged on me , for that i deny infants visible churchmembership , that i leave them in the visible kingdome of the devil , sith i leave them in a neutral state , of which more anon . . i shall examine the charge on my doctrine , which i deny by denying the minor of mr. bs. syllogism . . though mr. b. call the passages in my apology , p. . vain , yet it will appear there 's no vanity in any of them . . the argument by which i proved that unbaptized persons may be in christs visible kingdome , which ( mr. b. confesseth ) did fitly oppose mr. ms. imputation of leaving them all in the devils visible kingdome to whom we denied baptism , i think will serve against mr. bs. opinion . for if it be true that infants are admitted into the visible church by baptism ( which is his position , p. , . ) then they are out of it afore they are baptized , ( for afore admission none is in , but without , ) and if so , according to mr. bs. doctrine , infants are in the visible kingdome of the devil , sith he denies a third estate , and the horrid consequence is to be charged on mr. bs. doctrine , not on mine . . mr. bs. way of charging my doctrine is at vain as mr. ms. thus it proceeds . for if it be certain ( as you say ) that no infants are members of the vis●ble church , they are out of it : and then i argue thus . if there be no third estate on earth , but all are either in the visible church of christ , or in the visible kingdome of the devil ; then that doctrine which puts them out of the visible church of christ , doth leave them in the visible kingdome of the devil . but that there is no third state , but that all the world is in one of the two kingdomes , i prove thus . the common definition of the church affirmeth them to be a people called out of the world , and christ faith , he hath chosen them out of the world , and that they are not of the world , and in the same place divers times call's the devil [ the prince of this world , ] joh. . . & . . & . . & . . & . . & . , . and the apostle calleth him the god of the world , cor. . . so then , if the devil be the prince and god of the world as it is distinct from the church , and out of which the church is taken : then all those that are not taken out of the world with the church , are still of the world where satan is prince : but the antecedent is before proved , therefore the consequent is true . the world and the church contain all mankind according to the ordinary scripture distribution . answ. . the world and the church are not in all the places cited contradistinct . for joh. . . this world comprehends the church as well as them without , christs kingdome was not from the church by their weapons , or other procurement ; but this world is opposed to heavenly power , and gift , from whence christ had his kingdome . . nor in the rest of the places where the devil is termed the god of this world , or the prince of this world , or the disciples are said not to be of the world , can the speech be meant of infants ; for of them of whom it is said that the devil is the god of this world , by the world are meant , cor. . . those that believe not , in whom he hath blinded their minds , that the light of the glorious gospel of jesus christ should not shine unto them ; and so must the rest be understood , where he is said to be the prince of this world , according to what is said ephes. . . which is not to be said of infants ; and in other places , as john . . john . . . they are said to hate the apostles , which is not to be said of infants : and therefore from hence they are not proved to be in the devils kingdome , though they were reprobates . . the world is not in these places opposed to the visible church , so that who ever are in the visible church are not of the world , and they who are of the world are not of the visible church . for . the world out of whom the apostles were called , were the jewish church , which if mr. b. do not ( as i conceive he doth ) make the visible church of god when the apostles were called , sure mr. bl. mr. cobbet , and others do , as i have shewed before , and therefore the world is not put as contradistinct to the visible church . . the world is in the places cited so described by their actions of hating the apostles , by their exclusion out of christs prayer , joh. . . by their prince satan , by the apostles calling and choosing out of them , that the world cannot be construed onely to note non-visible churchmembers , but a party that are obstinate enemies to christ , and so reprobates , whether in the visible church , or out of it ; and if it stand in direct contradistinction to the church ( which i find not in any of the places cited ) it is to the invisible , not to the meer visible church : so that they who are without the visible church , may be no part of the world therein meant ; and they that are within the visible church , may be part of the world . . the definition , that the church are a people called out of the world , being expounded of the visible church , is meant of outward call , which infants are not capable of , and so the definition excludes infants from being a part of the church there meant , and yet they are not in the world in the sense in which it is taken in the texts mentioned ( except joh. . . ) for they are not haters of christ or his apostles , nor recusant unbelievers , nor such as obey satan as their prince . but if it be expounded of the invisible church , and the calling meant of invisible operation of the spirit , i deny not but elect infants may be so called out of the world , and be part of the invisible church . these things premised , i answer . the conclusion is not in the latter syllogism the same with the minor in the former syllogism which should have been proved . . the antecedent or minor in the later syllogism , which is this , [ the devil is the prince and god of the world as it is distinct from the church , and out of which the church is taken . ] if it be meant of the visible church i deny . for neither is the world in any of the texts distinct from the visible church , but the visible church or some members of it are the world there meant , and the devil the prince of them , and the visible church in respect at least of many perhaps most of their members not taken out of the world , but in it still ; nor is the devil the prince of them that yet are uncalled by an outward call from the world , if as infants they be not by their choice and actions conjoyned to the world , but of them that voluntarily adhere to and act with the wicked world . infants are neither in the world as it is there taken , nor without , that is , they are neither with them nor agai●st them in their present state ; but ( as they say in logick ) a whelp till the th . day is neither blind nor seeing , so an infant till it act is neither within nor without the world visibly , in which satan is prince . nor are those dictates of mr. b. true , or proved by the scriptures cited , that no man who is known to be out of christs visible church ordinarily can be out of satans visible kingdome , that the world and the church visible contain all mankind according to the ordinary scripture distribution . but if [ the world ] be taken for reprobates , and the church be taken for the invisible church of the elect , i grant it is true that infants are in one part , and that satan or god is prince of them : but this is nothing for mr. bs. purpose , though it be most agreeable to some passages , as joh. . , &c. about the world and the church . mr. b. proceeds thus . if it be said , that yet they are not visibly in satans kingdome : i answer , if no infants be of christs visible church , and this be a known thing , then they are visibly out of it ; and if they be visibly out of that church , then they are visibly of the world which is satans kingdome , seeing the world and the church contain all . answ. neither is it true , that if it be a known thing that infants be not of christs visible church , then they are visibly out of it ▪ except it be so known from their sensible action ; nor do the world , taken in the sense opposite to gods people , and the visible church contain all , as mr. b. dictates . mr. b. adds . if it be said , they may be of the invisible church , and yet not of the visible , nor of satans kingdome ; i answer , . it is visibly and not invisibly that the aforesaid distribution is to be understood . . i shall anon prove , that the visible church is wider then the invisible , and that ordinarily we may not judge any to be of the invisible church , who are not of the visible . answ. . how far the former speech is true or false , is shewed before . . as for the later , though we may not judge ord●narily these or those particular persons to be of the invisible church who are not of the visible , yet we may judge some infants at least are so , though non● be of the visible church . again ( saith mr. b. ) it appears that infants generally were of satans kingdome visibly till christ fetcheth them out : therefore those that are not fetcht out are in it still : and no man can say they are fetcht out except by some means or other it be visible or discernable , heb. . · christ destroyed by death him that had the power of death , that is the devil . satan had this power of death visibly over infants as well as others . therfore seeing mr. t. buildeth so much on this apol. p. . that infants are neither in the kingdom of christ , nor satan , visibly till profession , either be must prove that god hath left it wholly in the dark , and not revealed that any infants are of satans v●sible kingdom , or of christs ( the contrary whereof is abundantly proved ) or he must find out some d. kingdom or society , and so find out some d. king b●sides the king of the church , and the prince of this world ; and it 's like he wil bee put to finde out a third place for them hereafter , besides heaven and hell . answ. it is a weariness to the flesh to write books , it is much more when a man is to answer such scriblings as this of mr. b. which being so magnified as it hath been , and written with so much confidence and insolent provocations , is a monument of the boldness and shallowness of readers and writers in this age . what frivolous arguing are here , christ destroyed him that had the power of death , satan had this power of death visibly over infants as well as others , ergo they were of satans kingdom as it is contradistinct to christs visible church till christ by death fetcht them out ? if satans power of death visibly over infants , shew them to be in satans visible kingdome as contradistinct to the visible church , doth not the same prove all the infants of believers to be in satans visible kingdome , as well as the infants of unbelievers ? yea doth it not prove the visible church to be in satans visible kingdome ? for over them satan had this power of death as visibly as over the infants of unbelievers . yea wherein doth the power of death visibly shew a persons being in the visible kingdome of satan more then jobs smiting in his body by satan , or the womans who was a daughter of abraham and bound by satan . years , shewed them to have been then in the visible kingdome of the devil as contradistinct to the visible churth ? besides those that christ is said to have fetcht out or delivered are those who through fear of death were all their life-time sub●ect to bondage , heb. ▪ ● . doth mr. b. interpret this of infants ? besides if it appear that infants generally were of satans kingdome visibly till christ fetcheth them out , therefore those that are not fetcht out are in still : and no man can say they are fetcht out , except by some means or other it be visible or discernable , how can mr. b. say any infants of believers are fetcht out o● satans kingdome visibly ? by what means is it visible or discernable that a believers infant is fetcht out of satans visible kingdome and 〈◊〉 an unbelievers ? christs death was visible it's true , but that either christs death did destroy visibly satan , or visibly delivered those who were subject to bondage , or that by it is visible or discernable that a believers infant and not an unbelievers is fetcht out of satan's visible kingdom , is unknown to me . the ordinary meanes whereby it is visible that a person is fetcht out of satans visible kingdom is in that he hears , obeys , and professeth the gospel . surely by this means or any other it is not visible or discernable , that any infant of the most sincere believer is fetcht out of satans visible kingdome , therefore by mr. bs. own suppositions hee cannot say that any believers infant is fetcht out of the visible kingdome of the devil , and so his argument is retorted on him : that doctrine which leaveth all infants in the visible kingdome of the devil is false : but such is mr. bs. according to his own suppositions . ergo. as for what hee would impose on mee , it is false , that god hath left it in the dark , it is clear as light at noon , that infants are neither in christs nor satans visible kingdome , and yet they have christ or satan for their ●ing , and are to bee in heaven or hell , as they are elect or reprobate ; and therefore his talk of what i must finde out is but his prattle , and of what hee hath abundantly proved , is but his idle vapouring of himself . . saith hee , sure the apostle calls the world [ them that are without ] as distinct from the church visible , who are within , col. . . thes. . . and hee speaks it as the dreadfull misery of them , those that are without god judgeth , cor. . , . now infants are either within or without , and to bee without is to bee of the world which the devil is by christ said to be prince of . answ. to bee without mark . . is to bee without , not within gods election ; to bee without revel . . . is to bee without the gates of the city the new hierusalem , which i take to bee all one as to be cast into outer darkness as christ terms it . either of these ways all infants are within or without , but [ those without ] in the places cited by mr. b. cannot bee said of infants , for they are not persons towards whom wee are to walk in wisedome , col. . . or honesty , thes. . . this beeing required that our example may not harden them , but it were ridiculous to require this in respect of infants . the apostle doth not speak it as the dreadfull misery of them that are without that god judgeth them cor. . . but onely mentions it as an intimation why they belonged not to his judgement , nor doth hee in any of the places term them the world , who are without the visible church , or christ say that satan is prince of all that are not visible churchmembers , but of the world of reprobates , and such as are contrary to christ and in whom he rules nor is the term [ those that are without ] in any of those places taken for them that are without privatively for want of capacity to understand , profess , and act for christ , but for those who are positively without by the acts of their own will , not receiving christ , nor embracing the profession of him , such as were unbelievers , fornicators , idolaters , &c. cor. . , , . such as could observe and did stumble at the evil practises of the christians , col. . . thes. . . in which sense it is not true that infants are without , though they be privatively or negatively without the visible church . sect . lxxiii . mr. bs. . arg . ch. . that my doctrine leaves no ground of hope of salvation of infants dying , is answered . ch. . mr. b. goes on thus . the th . arg . that doctrine which leaveth us no sound grounded hope of the justification or salvation of any dying infants in the world , is certainly false doctrine . but that doctrine which denieth any infants to bee members of the visible church , doth leave us no sound grounded hope of the justification or salvation of any dying infants in the world ; therefore it is certainly false doctrine . no reasonable temperate christian will deny the major , i think . the minor i know will be passionately denied . mr. t. takes it hainously at mr. m. and mr. bl. that they pinch him a little in this point , as if it were but to raise an odium upon him : and yet when hee hath done all for the mitigation of the odium ( which hee saith was his end apol. pag. . ) yet he doth so little towards the vindication of his doctrine , that hee confesseth [ it suspendeth any judgement of infants , wee can neither s●y they are in ( the covenant of grace ) nor out , apol. pag. . ] hee labours to prove that there is no such promise or covenant in scripture as assures salvation to the infants of believers ; but that god would have us to suspend our judgement of this matter , and rest on the apostles determination rom. . . yet that there is a hope , though not certain , yet probable and comfortable , taken from some general indefinite promises of the favor of god to the parents , and experience that in all ages hoth been had of his merciful dealing with the children of his servants , apol. p. . ] answ. what i took hainously at mr. m. and mr. bl. i did justly ; what i said that there is no such covenant or promise in scripture as assures salvation to the infants of believers , i meant it of them as such , or universally what i said that god would have us to suspend our judgment of this matter , i meant whether this or that particular infant be in the covenant of grace . to mr. bs. arg . i say if his major be meant of such a grounded hope as is certain from faith , believing a particular promise of god concerning believers infants dying in infancy ( as mr. b. seems to understand it ) i deny the major , if very probable and likely from such declarations and promises and experiments as we have , i deny the minor , and shall follow mr. b. i will first , saith he , prosecute my argument and then consider of these words ▪ understand therefore that . i do not charge their doctrine with a positive affirmation , that all infants do certainly perish ; but with the taking away of all positive christian well grounded hope of their salvation . answ. yet by your charging us with this , that by our doctrine they are not so much as seemingly in a state of salvation , you do charge our doctrine with a positive affirmation that they all certainly perish . and it will appear by that which follows that with you no hope of their salvation is christian and well grounded , but what is cer●ain upon a promise of god apprehended by faith , in which is the chief difference between us . you add , that the question now is not of particular infants of believers , but of the species or whole sort that so die ; not whether this or that infant be certainly saved , or we have any such hope of it but the question is , whether there be a certainty or any such hope that god will just●fie and save any infants in the world or any infants of helievers at all ? answ between whom the question is , as mr. b here saith , i do not understand : the question between me and my antagonists is not as mr. b. here sets it down . i have always asserted that there is a certainty and hope that god will justifie and save some infants in the world , some infants of believers , and have often acknowledged those that christ prayed for , laying on his hands were elect ones , but the question is whether there be any such promise to a believer and his natural seed w●ich assures salvation to them as the seed of believers , and consequently whether there be a certain hope of the● all dying in their infancy that they shall be saved . this i have denied because i know no such promise in scripture , and if there were it would prove the salvation of those at age though prophane as esau : for if the promise belong to the seed as such , and it includes salvation , then it assures 〈◊〉 all the seed of belie●ers , whether dying at age prophanely or in infancy . so that it is not true , that the question is not whether this or that infant bee certainly saved , or we have any such hope of it , nor is it true that the question is of the species or whole sort that so die , or whether there be a certainty or any such hope that god will justifie and save any infants in the world , or any infants of believers at all , yea mr. b. in the words next before would not charge our doctrine with a positive affirmation that all infants do certainly perish . but the question is whether there be a certainty from a promise that he will save them all dying in infancy , nor is the question of the species or whole sort of infants , but of the particular infants of believers . now , saith he , i affirm ▪ . that there is a ground of christian hope left us in this , that god doth save some infants ( yea and that particular ones , though that be not now the question . answ. now this i affirm too , though i assert not such a certainty by promise to infants of believers , as paedobaptists do . . saith he , that they that put them all out of the visible church leave us no such hope . i will begin with the later , which is the minor in the argument . and . i take it for granted , that to be a visible member of of the church , and to be a member of the visible church , is all one . he that denieth that , will but shew his vanity ; and that the invisible church , or the sincere part is most properly and primarily called the church , and the body of christ ; and the church as visible containing also the unsincere part , is called the church ; secondarily and for the sake of the invisible , and so it is called the body , because men seem to be of the invisible church , therefore they truly are of the visible : if we were fully certain by his own external discoveries , that any man were not of the invisible church , that man should not be taken to be of the visible . therefore the properties and priviledges of the invisible church are usually given to the visible ( as to be saints , holy , all the children of god by faith , gal. . . to be christs body , cor. . . to be branches in christ , joh . , &c. because as the sincere are among them , so all visible members seem in the essentials of christianity to be sincere ; therefore if any converted jew or pagan were to be taken into the church upon his pr●fession , we ought not to admit him except his profession seem to be serious and so sincers ; for who durst admit him , if we knew he came but in jest , or to make a scorn of christ and baptism ? so that to be a member of the visible church , or of the church as visible , or a visible member of the church are all one , and is no more but to seem to be a true member of the church of christ ( commonly called invisible ) or of the true mystical body of christ. therefore even cardinal cusanus calleth the visible church , ecclesia conjecturalis , as receiving its members on conjectural signs . and our divines generally make the unsound hypocrites to be but to the church as a wooden leg to the body ▪ or at the best as the hair and nails , &c. and as the straw and chaff to the corn : and so doth bellarmine himself , and even many other whom he citeth of the papists ( aquinas , petr. a soto , joh. de turrecremata , hugo , alex ▪ alensis , canus . ) and when bellarmine feigneth calvin and others to make two militant churches , our divines reject it as a calumny and manifest fiction ; and say , that the church is not divided into two sorts , but it is a two fold respect of one and the same church ; one as to the internal essence , the other a● to the external manner of existing as ames . speaks . answ. though much of this passage be yeelded by me , yet i reject those speeches [ because men seem to be of the invisible church , therefore they truly are of the visible ; to be a visible member of the church is no more but to seem to be a true member of the church of christ ( commonly called the invisible ) of the true mystical body of christ ] for to be a visible member of the christian church is not all one as to seem to be of the invisible church . for , . a person may be of the visible church , according to mr. b. who lives alone in america , and therefore seems to no man to be of the invisible church , no man knoweth or judgeth probably or certainly him to be of christs mystical body . . a person may seem to be of the invisible church , and yet not be of the visible , as an indian while a christian preacheth , who yet professeth not christ , yet seems by his gestures to be affected with it , and sundry others . therefore it is necessary to be a visible churchmember , that his profession be visible , that is , be discernable to mens understanding through the sensibility of it . . to some a person may seem to be of the invisible church , to others not , is he of the visible church or not ? or are both true ? and if no● , how shall we know which is true , which not ? . to seem to be of 〈◊〉 invisible church is but accidental to the visibility of a churchmember , though he should seem to none to be of the invisible church , yea though through mens ignorance or uncharitableness the person should seem to be a reprobate or hypocrite , yet he might be nevertheleless a visible christian , and so a churchmember of the catholick visible , which mr. b. avoucheth . mr. bs. reasons here go upon a gross mistake , as if it were all one to be a visible churchmember , and to be received or admitted as a visible churchmember : and that a person were denominated visible from what men apprehend or what seems to them , whereas the denomination is , as ames saith truly in the place meant by mr. b. from the external form or manner of existing . though a person be not to be received as a visible member of the church because he seems not to be found , yet he may be a visible churchmember : nor is he such because they pass a judgement on him , but because his profession is such as might shew him to be a christian , if any did observe it , or would candidly interpret it . but how far mr. b. errs from the true understanding of the main point of his book , what it is to be a visible churchmember , sometimes making it the same with a seeming to be of the mystical body of christ , sometimes a right to a benefit , and how indistinctly he speaks of this thing ( which if he had minded any exact disquisition of truth , he should in the beginning of his dispute have first cleared ) is shewed in the second part of this review , sect . . at large pag. , &c. in this part , sect . , &c. and for want of observing this his mistake , i judge many learned men and others have been misled by him . he saith , again , you must understand , that to be a member of the visible church is not to be a member of any particular or political body or society , as rome would have it . and to be a visible member , doth not necessarily import that he is actually knowne to bee a member ; for hee may live among the blinde that cannot see that which is visible . but that he is one so qualified , as that hee ought to bee esteemed in the judgement of men to belong to the church of christ : therefore a man living alone in america , may yet bee a member of the visible church . for hee hath that which constituteth him a visible member , though there bee none to discern it . answ. . this passage doth overthrow mr. bs. definition of a visible churchmember , which is , that he is one that seems to the judgement of man to be of the invisible church : now he that seems such , is actually known or discerned to be such ; that seems so , which is thought to be so ; videtur quod sic , videtur quod non , in the schools are express●ons of a mans opinion ; but according to mr. b. to be a visible church-member doth not necessarily import he is actually known or discerned , therefore he may be a visible churchmember who doth not seem to the judgement of man to be of the invisible church , and then the definition is not right , as not agreeing to every thing defined . . his speeches he may live among the blind who cannot see that which is visible , that he is one qualified so as that he ought to be esteemed in the judgement of men to belong to the church of christ , a man living alone in america hath that which constituteth him a visible member though there be none to discern it , do plainly intimate that visible churchmembership is constituted by some qualification which is visible , so that he ought thereupon to be esteemed in the judgement of men to belong to the church of christ therefore visible churchmembership is from some qualification sensible , and is before the esteem in the judgement of men to belong to the church of christ ; and though such esteem should not follow , yet the person is a visible churchmember : and therefore mr. b. doth most unskilfully define a visible churchmember to be one that seems , or is esteemed to be of the invisible church . for though this be , and ought to be a consequent upon the other , yet it is not the same ; but as i have shewed , even according to mr. b. they may be severed . and if that which constituteth a visible churchmember be a qualification visible , so as that he ought to be esteemed in the judgement of men to belong to the church of christ ( which can be no other then his serious , sober , free , and intelligent profession of the faith of christ ) then my description of a visible churchmember is right , and infants that have no such qualification are not visible churchmembers . to say that their parents are visible professors , is insufficient : for there is no scripture that makes the profession of the parent the childs qualification , nor any scripture that for it makes it our duty to esteem him in our judgement to belong to the church of christ ; nor is the pa●ents profession any qualification of the child visible , neither is the relation of the child visible or sensible . ( for relations , say logicians , incur not into the sense ) nor is the fathers profession any more his own childes profession then any other mans childes profession . so that mr. bs. own words beeing well heeded , overthrow his tenet and confirm mine . i go after him in the rest . these things , saith he , explained , i proceed , and prove my minor thus . they that are not so much as seemingly ( or visibly ) in a state of salvation , of them so dying we can have no true ground of christian hope that they shall be saved : but they that are not so much as seemingly or visibly of the church , they are not so much as seemingly or visibly in a state of salvation : therefore of them so dying , we can have no true ground of christian hope that they shall bee saved . answ. . mr. b. makes here seemingly and visibly in a state of salvation , of the church to be all one , whereas there is a great difference , seemingly being in order to the understanding , visibly to the sense , he may be seemingly in the state of salvation , and of the church , who is not so visibly , there being many arguments which may make a thing seem to the understanding , besides that which is discernable by the outward sense . therefore if mr. b. mean by seemingly all one with visibly ( as his words import ) i deny his major as false ; and to the contrary assert , that we may have true ground of christian hope that they shall be saved , who yet die not visibly in a state of salvation , that is , do not any thing incurrent into the sense which may shew they are in a state of salvation , as infants born , abortives , still-born , children dying in the womb , natural fools , phrenetiques : yea we conceive hopes of the salvation of persons dying raving , cursing by reason of their disease , destroying themselves , dying excommunicate justly from the church , though visibly they are in a state of damnation ▪ the minor is also false , they that are not visibly of the church , may yet be visibly in a state of salvation , as an indian yet not professing christ , nor baptized , being affected with the preaching of christs love to man , so as to lift up his eys to heaven , knock his brest , listen to the preacher , weep , kiss the preacher , follow him , keep company with him , &c. this man is not yet visibly of the church , yet he is visibly in a state of salvation , and so dying we have ground of christian hope that he shall be saved . but mr. b. tels us , the major is evident ; and confirmed thus : . sound hope is guided by judgement , and that judgement must have some evidence to proceed on : but where there is not so much as a seeming or visibility , there is no evidence ; and therefore there can be no right judgement , and so no grounded hope . answ. . mr. b. doth still unskilfully put seeming for seemingness , and confound it and visibility . . where there is no seeming , there may be evidence ; he should rather have said , where there is no seeming , there is no judgement ; for where nothing seems to a person , he passeth no judgement or opinion . . i presume mr. b. takes evidence largely for any argument which shews a thing and not in that strict sense in which it is denied by learned men that faith hath evidence , and in the large sense there may be and is in innumerable things evidence in which is no visibility , as that corn will be sown and reaped though we see it not ▪ &c. and in this present argument , mr. b. himself a little after reckons up many reasons besides visibility of the state of salvation , and of the church , which he makes evidence for a judgement upon which there is a grounded hope of infants salvation , p●g . , . as gods declarations , promises , &c. and therefore i deny that speech ▪ where there is not so much as visibility there is no evidence . . saith he , again , to judge a thing to be what it doth not any way seem or appear to be , is ( likely actually , but alway ) virtually and interpretatively a false judgement : but such a judgement can be no ground for sound hope . answ. yet a man may truly judge that to be which doth not visibly appear to be . . saith he , the minor is as evident , viz. [ that they that are not seemingly or visibly of the church , are not seemingly or visibly in a state of salvation . ] for . if they that are not of the true church are not in a state of salvation , then they that seem not to be of that church do not so much as seem to be in a state of salvation : but the antecedent is true ; therefore the consequent the antecedent might be proved from a hundred texts of scripture . it is the body that christ is the saviour of , and his people that he redeemeth from their sins , and his sheep to whom he giveth eternal life , and those that sleep in jesus that god shall bring with him , and the dead in christ that shall rise to salvation , and those that die in the lord that rest from their labours , and the church that christ will preserve pure and unspotted , &c. he that denieth this , is scarse to be disputed with as a christian : even they that thought all should at last be brought out of hell and saved , did think they should become the church , and so be saved . the consequence is beyond questioning . answ. . seemingly and visibly are still mis confounded by mr. b. . if the antecedent bee meant of the visible church ( of which alone the conclusion is to bee ) then it is denied , and the proofs are all impertinent sith they speak not of the visible church as visible , but of the invisible . . saith hee , i next argue thus : if there bee no sure ground for faith concerning the salvation of any out of the church , then there ● no sure ground of hope ( for faith and hope are conjunct ; wee may not hope with a christian hope for that wee may not believe ) but there is no sure ground for such faith : ( they that say there is let them shew it if they can ) therefore there is no sure ground of hope . answ. . mr. b. doth ill to change the term [ well grounded hope ] in his first syllogism , into [ a sure ground of hope . ] for there may bee a well grounded hope of many things , as that god will deliver from death in a battle , provide in a siege bread , &c. though there bee no sure ground of hope cui f●ls●m subesse non potest , that god will do these things . . wee have sure ground for faith concerning the salvation of some out of the visible church , though not of all infants of believers . and this wee have from gods declaration of the election of some not visible churchmembers and consequently of their salvation , as isaac and jacob. rom. . , , , , . which is urged by mr. b. himself pag. . . saith he , again , if there be no promise in gods word for the salvation of any without the visible church , then there is no ground of our christian hope that they shall be saved : but there is no such promise ( as i think they will confess ) therefore there is no ground for any such hope . that christian hope must rest upon a word of promise , mee thinks should not bee denied : it is plain rom. . , . ephes. . . & . . col. . , , . thes. . . tim. . ▪ heb. . , . heb. . . pet. . , . & . . rom. . . & . . tit. . , . heb . , &c. ps. . , , , &c. in natural things wee may have a common natural hope upon natural grounds ▪ but in supernatural things , as are justification and salvation , we must have the ground of a divine revelation to support all true christian theological hope . answ. . i deny the consequence of the major , and to mr. bs. proofs i answer : . there is not one of all the texts that saith there is no ground of true christian hope but a promise in gods word , though there are that prove the promise of god to bee a ground of christian hope : it would bee too tedious to shew the impertinency of each of them , it is sufficient to acquaint the reader wherein the defect of proof is . . wee may have the ground of a divine revelation to support our hope , as of what god hath done , of his attributes and other declarations , although we have not a promise , which mr. b. seems too unskilfully to confound with a divine revelation which may bee the ground of christian hope . . the minor is not confessed by me to isaac and jacob god promised salvation afore they were born , therefore to them without the visible church , the like to the gentiles , to the jews , rom. . . afore they are called , or in being : to all the elect there is a covenant or promise in christ of salvation , whether they be of the visible church or not . . saith he , again , if god do add to the church such as shall bee saved , then we can have no true ground of christian hope of the salvation of any that are not added to the church : but that god doth add to the church such as shall be saved , is the plain words of scripture , acts . last . therefore we have no true ground of such hope of the salvation of those that are not so added to it . if any say that the text speaks of the invisible church . i answer : . then it would hold of the visible much more for the visible church is far larger then the invisible , and contain the invi●●ble in it . . but the text expresly speaks of the visible church : for it was such a church . . as were baptised . . and as the . souls were in one day added to ; . and as continued in the apostles doctrine , fellowship , breaking of bread , and prayers ; . and were together and had all things common ; . and sold their possessions and goods , and parted them to them that needed ; . and continued daily in the temple , and breaking bread from house to house did eat with gladness , &c. . and as did praise god and had favour with all the people . and doubtless this was the visible church : to this such as should bee saved were added ; yet not onely such : for many false teachers and others did after go out from them ; and such as simon magus were baptised ; and false brethren was one cause of their sufferings . so that i doubt not but it is clear , that they that deny any infants to be members of the visible church , do leave us no true ground for any christian hope of their salvation . answ. the consequence of the major is denied , and the reason of the denial is because the speech is not simply convertible , hee added to the church such as should bee saved , therefore all that shall bee saved are added to the visible church . yea mr. b. by confessing that they were not onely the saved that were added to the church acknowledgeth the proposition to bee particular , some were added to the church which should bee saved , and this is convertible onely thus ; ergo some that shall bee saved were added to the church , not universal , all that were added to the church should bee saved . so that wee need not betake our selves to the answer of understanding it of the invisible church . nor is there a necessity to understand it of eternal salvation . for the word being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the present tense may bee translated the saved , that is as v. . by relinquishing of that crooked or perverse generation , and if beza's conjecture hold that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is put for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the reading is to be , and some hee daily added to the church to bee saved . let the reading bee either way , it proves not that there are none to bee saved who are not added to the church visible . and indeed such a proposition were false , sith it is otherwise in the case of infants dying in the womb , still born , &c. mr. bs. inference , if acts . . bee meant of the church invisible then the speech , they that are to be saved are added to the church holds much more of the visible , is vain . and the reason is as vain . for it is uncertain whether the visible church be far larger then the invisible , considering the number of dying infants and the uncertainty how far their election and salvation extends , and though there bee many of the visible church who are not of the invisible , yet the visible doth not contain the invisible in it , there being many of the invisible church who are not in the visible , and therefore it proves not that if they that are saved are of the invisible then they are much more of the visible . so that however it bee that mr. b. doubt not of the contrary , i am assured that the denying infants visible churchmembership , leaves sufficient ground for christian hope of their salvation . next , saith hee , let us consider how far their own arguments will exclude all hope of the salvation of any infan● . if it were true which mr. t. so much standeth on , that the onely way now appointed by christ to make churchmembers , is by teaching the persons themselves ; and that none else may bee members of the visible church , but those that have learnt : then . it will much more follow that they are not of the invisible , as i have shewed ; or at least wee are not to judge them to be of the invisible church at all . . and if from matth. . . they may argue , that none but those that are taught are disciples and are to bee baptised ; why may they not as well argue from mar. . . [ whosoever believeth not shall bee damned ] that all infants are certainly damned ? wherein lieth the difference in these two arguments ? sure the later seems to mee to have more shew from scripture though but little : i dare invite mr. t. to prove to mee from scripture that any infants in the world are justified and sanctified , and try if i shall not in the same way prove that some infants are members of the visible church ? or let him answer the argument from mar. . . that is brought for their damnation , and see if it will not afford him also an answer to that from matt. . against their being disciples and to bee baptised . answ. . he hath no where made good this consequence , if infants be not of the visible church , it will follow much more they are not of the invisible , or at least that wee are not to judge them to bee of the inv●sible church at all . . it doth not follow whosoever believeth not shall bee damned therefore infants , because the text it self shews the speech to bee limited onely to those unbelievers to whom the gospel is preached , v. . yet it followes none are disciples and to bee baptised but the taught , matth. . , ● . because christ first appointed persons to bee taught by preaching the gospel , whom hee appointed to bee baptised and ●ccounted disciples . . let mr. b. take these arguments and try whether hee can prove infants visible churchmembership from them . they of whom is the kingdome of heaven are justified and sanctified . but of some infants is the kingdome of heaven , ergo. they who are elected to life , for whom christ died , are justified and sanctified are they die . but so some are infants , ergo. . the argument is answered from mark . . let m. b. try how he can answer mine from matth. . , . mark . , . &c. as it is in the second part of this review , sect . , &c. or as it is in my praecursor , sect . . pag. . out of his words , which is shewed in the d. part of the review , sect . . pag. , . not to be answered by him in his praefestinantis morator . hee that nullifi●s that argument must make reformation of humane additions to the worship of god as part of it void . mr. b. adds , but why do i expect th●● when hee suspendeth his judgement ? if hee mean it of particular infants , it is not home to the question ; for so hee must sus●end his ●udgement concerning the salvation of every particular person , as certain , seeing hee is uncertain of the sincerity of any : and yet i hope he will not conclude it uncertain whether any man hee saved ? but if hee mean it of all the species of infants , then i must say he suspendeth much of his faith , hope and charity ; and that doctrine which suspendeth our belief of god and charity to our own children , shall be none of my creed . answ. the suspension of judgement which in my postscript sect . . i said god would we should have , was concerning the certainty of salvation of all infants of believers dying in infancy , which was meant of particular infants , to wit the infants of believers , and it was home to the question between me , and mr. m. and mr. bl. whether there were such a certainty of salvation of every believers infant dying so , by vertue of the promise i will be thy god and the god of thy seed gen . ? there was no such question as mr. b. would impose on mee , as if i doubted whether any infant should bee saved ? but this i did and do still conceive , that there is no promise of salvation to every believers infants , and therefore we are to suspend our judgement concerning this or that particular infant , not of all the species of infants as hee speaks . and though i am certain of every believers salvation , yet i am not certain of this or that professour that he is a sincere believer , and therefore concerning this i am to suspend any peremptory judgment of science , yet i am not to suspend my judgment of charity , which yet i am to suspend towards infants , there being no actions of theirs which may occasion such a judgment . nor hereby do i suspend any act of faith , hope or charity which i ought to have towards god or my own children ; and if what i hold be no part of mr. bs. creed , yet it may be part of the creed of as holy and learned a man as he is . hee adds , and where hee thinks wee must take up with that rom. . . hee will have mercy on whom hee will have mercy . i answer : . this is no other ground of hope , then of any heathen in america wee may entertain . . it is no ground of hope for infants at all : for it neither directly nor indirectly promises any mercy to them , nor saith any more of mer●y then of hardning : and rather would afford such disputers an argument against mercy to any infants , because it is mercy put in opposition to hardning , which infants in that sense are not capable of . answ. i said god would have us to rest on the apostles determination rom. . . to wit concerning the salvation of all believers infants , and to this i was induced by the apostles arguing , v. , , . concerning jacob and esau. but this was not alledged by me as a ground of hope , and therefore though mr. bs. consequences be granted , there is nothing against what i said : which i think very agreeable with the words of wickliff , cited as an approved speech by mr. b. himself , p. . which if he like , he cannot gainsay my speech . but he saith , yet mr. t. tels us [ there is hope for all this , though not certain , yet probable and comfortable ] and he sheweth us three grounds for it : if this be spoken of the species of infants , as if there were no certainty , but a probability that any of them shall be saved , then i will prove it false and vile anon : if it be spoken of particular individual infants , then . it is as much as can be said of any men at age ; for no other man hath any certain , but a probable hope of their salvation . answ. i have often said , i mean it not of the species , but the individual infants of believers , and i appeal to mr. b. himself whether he do not say as i say , plain scripture , &c. pag . in those words : though yet for my own opinion , i have resolved no further then this , that we are to judge the remission , justification , and salvation of particular infants of true believers mo●● probable , till the contrary appear by them ; and for the full certainty , i leave it as to me uncertain . if we have but a probable hope of the salvation of men at age , it is no absurdity , in my apprehension , to say we have but probable hope of their salvation ; yet we have a greater degree of probability in our hopes of the salvation of such as have in appearance spent their lives in a holy course , then of infants so dying . . saith he , it is as much as i desire ; for if their salvation be probable , then they are visibly or seemingly , or to our judgement in a state of salvation , and so must needs be visible members of the church . how dare mr. t. refuse to take those for visible churchmembers , whose salvation is probable , when he hath no more but probability of the salvation of the best man in the world . answ. . i have often told mr. b. that to be seemingly , or to our judgement in a state of salvation , is not all one as to be such visibly , and that such may be no visible churchmembers whose salvation is seeming or probable to our judgement . . though i have but probability of the salvation of the best man in the world , yet i have a certainty of his profession , by which i take him to be a visible churchmember , and not by the probability of his salvation ; and this i dare do , and i wonder how mr. b. against the current of all the n. t. dare do otherwise . . but , saith he , doth not this contradict what went before ? and i wish he do not contradict it again in his proofs . his first proof of the probability , is from some general indefinite promises ; but what these promises are , he tels us , apol. pag. . by general and indefinite promises be means such as determine not the kinde of good promised , nor the particular person ; and therefore are true , if performed to any person in any sort of good ; and conditional upon condition of faith and obedience . answ. . if it determine not the kind of good formally nor virtually , nor contain it generically ; then how doth it make it probable ? . and if it neither determine the person , nor give 〈◊〉 ground to determine , how then doth it become probable to that person ? . and how then can that promise give hopes to the faithfull of the salvation of their infants , which is verified , if performed to any person in any sort of good ? as if it were but to one infant in a nation in reprieving him a day from damnation ? if it intend more then this , then it is not verified or fulfilled in this much ; if it intend no more , then how doth it make their salvation probable ? . and sure the conditional promises which he mentioneth , requiring faith and repentance , are little to the benefit of infants , if these conditions are required of themselves in their infancy . and for his other two grounds of hope , viz. the favour of god to the parents , and experience , they are comfortable helps to second the promise ; but of themselves without a word , would give us no ground of christian hope in such matters as justification and salvation are . answ. i perceive no contradiction in my words . . by putting in those words [ nor contain it generically ] he intimates as if i had denied the promises i mention to contain generically the good of justification and salvation ; whereas i termed the promises expresly general , and cited psal. . , . psal. . ● , &c. which mention gods righteousness and blessedness , and so may comprehend eternal righteousness and blessedness , and thereby the justification and salvation of infants becomes probable , though it be not certain , sith gods righteousness and blessedness may be conferred in another kind . as if a rich king promise money to a mans children , it 's probable he will give them gold , thou●h it be not certain . . though the particular person be not determined , yet sith the qualification of the person is expressed to be the generation of the righteous , it is probable that it is meant of each ▪ till the contrary appears ; as if a man promise to make such a mans children heirs , this is probable of every one till it appear otherwise , and yet not certain . . i have shewed how , especially if we consider that favours are wont to be amplified to the most . though gods intentions are not fulfilled perhaps with so litle , yet the words may be verified if no more but temporal blessedness be given . . the conditional promises i confess give us but slender hope of infants by themselves ; yet with general indefinite promises , declarations of gods favour to his people , and experience , they yeeld a strong ground of hope of the justification and salvation of infants of believers , though not certain and sure , as mr. b. would have , but how short he is in proof will appear in that which followes . sect . lxxiiii . mr. bs. allegations , p. , , . shew not a stronger ground of hope of infants salvation , so dying , then mine : his d . arg. ch . . his th . ch . . are answered . he tels us , that he hath a stronger probabilty then i mention , of the salvation of all the infants of the faithfull , so dying , and a certainty of the salvation of some , in that god admitted them visible members of his church . for christ is the saviour of his body , and he present his church clensed and unspotted to the father : and if god will have them to be visible members of his church , then he would have us take or judge them to be members of it : and withal , there is less danger of mistake in them , then in men at years ; because they do not dissemble , nor hide any hypocritical intents under the vizor of profession , as they may do . and it is certain also , that if god would have some and many to be of the true body of christ , and so be saved , then hee would not have all to bee visibly out of that body . that he would have have them churchmembers is proved , and shall be , god willing , yet more . if god add to the church such as shall be saved , then there is a strong probability of their salvation whom he addeth to the church . answ. mr. b. here , p. . in his arguments d . and d. intimated that he asserted a sure ground for faith concerning the salvation of believers infants so dying , and that to be a promise in the word of the salvation of those within the visible church ; and here he asserts a stronger probability then i mention of the salvation of all the infants of the faithfull so dying , and a certainty of the salvation of some , in that god admitteth them visible members of his church . yet pag. . he dares not say there 's a full certainty of the salvation of all believers infants so dying : yea , pag. . he saith , rom. . . the apostle pleadeth that salvation is not by the covenant tyed to all abrahams seed . out of which i infer , . that mr. b. hath no sure ground for faith , to wit , a promise in the word concerning the salvation of all the infants of believers so dying . for the apostle pleads , that salvation is not by covenant tied to all abrahams seed , and if not to abrahams , then to none else ; and the certainty of the salvation of some is acknowledged by me as well as by him . and sure if the covenant assure not salvation to all , and neither it nor any other revelation of god tell us salvation belongs to this infant of such a believer or to that , there is no certainty concerning the salvation of this or that particular infant of a believer dying , nor is there a sure ground for faith concerning it , nor is the hope of it certain , and we are to suspend our judgement concerning it , which mr. b. carp● at so much in me to make me and the truth i hold odious , which is almost all the work he does ( for he proves nothing he says in opposition to what i hold ) and though his speeches are inconsistent , yet when he sets down his opinion he agrees with me , that he dares not say there 's a full certainty of the salvation of all believers infants ; nor dare he i think say , that he is certain of any one believer on earth his infant dying , that he is saved . . that he hath a stronger probability then i mention of the salvation of all the infants of believers so dying , in that god admitteth them visible members of his church , is said by him : but . he shews not what degree of probability i deny which he asserts : . i never opposed the strongest probability mr. b. asserts , onely i declared my self unsatisfied concerning the certainty , which mr. b. dares not assert : . that god hath admi●ted them visible members of his church christian , is not yet proved by mr. b. nor ever will be : . if he had , yet this proves the certainty of the salvation of none now existent ; for the speeches , ephes. . , . must be understood of the church which is so visible , that it be also the invisible . now though it be certain , that some visible churchmembers are saved ▪ yet it is neither certain that all , or any visible churchmembers or churches now existent shall be saved , and therefore no more then a probability of the salvation of all or some infants of believers now existent can be inferred , though their visible churchmembership were granted . as for the strength of the probability , i stick not to grant it as strong as he would have it , so that he assert not a certainty . and therefore , did not mr. b. mind to pick a quarrel with me , and to affright people from my doctrine , this chapter of mr. b. might have been spared . yet mr. b. adds . and the promises to them are fuller then mr. t. expresseth , and give us stronger ground of hope . . god hath , as i have proved , assured that he will be mercifull to them in the general , and that in opposition to the seed of the wicked , on whom he will visit their fathers sins : now this giveth a strong ground of hope that he will save them . for if the judge or king say , i will hang such a traytor , but i will be mercifull to such a one , it is an intimation that he meaneth not to hang him . if your friend promise to be good to you and mercifull , you dare confidently hope he means not to destroy you . answ. this proves not gods promises any fuller then i express , for those i alledge not excluding but including in an &c. this , are as full as this , exod. . . nor doth this give a stronger ground of hope then i do , who yeeld as much as mr. b. infers , though i like not mr. bs. instance , which intimates that god should say , i will damn the children of the wicked to the d. and th . generation , v. . and save the children of them that love me to a thousand generations . he adds . . god saith ( as i have shewed ) that the seed of the righteous is blessed . now is not that a strong ground of hope , that so dying , they shall not be damned ? it is not likely that god would call them blessed whom he will damn eternally , after a few days or hours life in a state of infancy , which is capable of litle sense of blessedness here . answ. what mercy is meant , exod. . . and what blessedness , psal . . hath been considered before , and thence it may appear , that a certainty of salvation to all infants of believers , or to any definitely now existent cannot bee inferred . yet i oppose not the inferring thence a strong ground of hope . nevertheless that god should call them blessed in a sort and yet damn them , is no inconsistency , nor doth it appear much less likely then that hee should reprobate esau afore hee was born or had done good or evil , rom. . , , . . god ( saith mr. b. ) entreth covenant to be their god , and to take them for a peculiar people to himself , deut. . , , . and this giveth strong hope of their salvation . for as if the ●ing promise to bee your king , and to take you for his s●bject , it is likely hee intends all the benefits of kingly government to you : or if a man promise a woman to bee her husband , it is likely that hee intendeth to do the office of a husband : and so when god promiseth to be their god. answ. though i yeild that there is ground for a strong hope o● the salvation of infants of christian believers so dying , yet in the text cited there is nothing to that purpose . for . that covenant was made on●ly with the people of israel , and was a peculiar covenant with that nation . . for the covenant was of gods being god to them while they owned him , and kept his commandments and so w●s conditional . so that thi● covenant is not a covenant with every believer and his issue , nor did gods promise to bee their god assure the salvation of all the israelites infants so dying , much less the salvation of infants of christian believers , to whom all the promises in the new covenant are personal , none that i remember national or domestical as were to the jews . . saith hee , and paul thes. . . would not have the faithfull mourn for the dead as those that are without hope : now what dead are these ? and what hope is it ? . hee saith the dead in general , which will not stand with the exclusion of the whole species of infants . . hee speaks of those dead for whom they were apt to mourn . and will not parents mourn for their children ? and for hope , it is evidently the hope of resurrection to life . for resurrection to damnation is not a thing to be hoped for . this seems plain to me . answ. ●hough i oppose not a strong hope of the salvation of believers infants so dying , yet to shew how vainly he talks of his shewing more for it then i do , the reader may take notice , that if the apostle be interpreted of the hope of the resurrection to life of the dead in general and those they were apt to mourn for , as mr. bs. arguing intimates his mind to be , then the apostle would have them hope for the resurrection to life not onely of the infants of believers so dying , but also of their ripe aged children though infidels and profane , yea for their wives , kindred , neighbours , servants ; whereas the apostles speech is plainly meant onely of them that are believers , who as they are said v. ● . to sleep so v. . to sleep in jesus , whom god will bring with jesus , v. . dead in christ , that is for christ ▪ ● . m. mede conceivs , applying at peculiarly to the martyrs , or as most 〈◊〉 faith of christ , such as shall be for ever with the lord , v. . from 〈…〉 with many other instances in his writings it may appear how 〈…〉 superficially mr. b. opens and infers from texts of scrip●u● . saith mr. b. david comforteth himself concerning his dead child , because hee should go to the child , but the child should not return to him . to say that this was onely that hee should bee buried with it , is to make david too like a pagan rather then a christian : however it seems hee was confident that he should not bee damned : or else hee would not say , i shall go to him . and to say david knew his salvation as a prophet , is a groundless fiction that cannot be proved : prophets knew not all things , not ordinarily things of another world by such revelation . therefore what ever ground of hope david had , other faithfull parents have the like . answ . that david in those words sam. . , . did express any ground of hope of the salvation of his child , and that thereby hee comforted himself concerning his dead childe , is more then i think can bee evinced from the text . rendering a reason of his not fasting any longer , hee doth not alledge any thing concerning the happiness of the childe , but the bootlesness of h●s praying and fasting sith the childes life could not bee recovered . and the whole speech considered , the words import no more then this , can i bring him back again to life ? i shall go to him , that is to the state of the dead , as counterfeit samuel is brought in , saying sam. . . to morrow thou shalt bee with mee , that is dead as i am , and as jacob said gen. . . hee should go down to his sonne into the grave , or state of the dead . and in these speeches though no more were meant , yet there is nothing that relisheth of paganism , not so much as other speeches seem to do , psal. . . psal. . . isai. . , . job , , , , , . for though they the express not the expectation of the resurrection or the present estate of happiness , yet it was not because they believed it not , but because it was sufficient to give a reason of his present action , in which hee gives first an account of what hee did before , hee fasted and wept while the childe was alive , for hee said , who can tell whether god will bee gracious to mee that the childe may live ? in which words if wee may argue after mr. bs. mode , wee may as well say hee was too like a pagan rather then a christian , sith hee mentions no prayer for his childes happiness , but his natural life . . an account of his not fasting , because god had frustrated the end of his prayer and fasting . and yet in both hee shewed ▪ faith in god , in his prayer acknowledging god the authour of life and death , and in the other the sentence of death passed on himself , and his acquiescence in gods will concerning both . all which hee understood as one acquainted with god and his word . so that wee need not assert that david knew the happiness of his childe by special revelation , sith hee expresseth not any thing of it . and if hee did , yet hee might speak this not as an assured thing , but as probably hoped for , and yet not upon common grounds to all believers , but out of special favour to him ( of which hee had more then common experience ) and gods wont of hearing his prayers . so that yet mr. b. hath brought no stronger grounds of probability of the salvation of all believers infants so dying , then i have done notwithstanding his cracks . let 's view the rest . . saith hee , again , if there were not farre more hope of their salvation , then fear of their damnation ; it would never bee said , that children are an heritage of the lord ▪ and the fruit of the womb is his reward ; and the man blessed that hath his quiver full of them , psal. . , , . answ. . mr. b. pretended to shew a stronger probability of the salvation of the infants of believers then i have done , but wherein do●h hee exceed mee in his assertion in this place or his proof ? did i ever say there is less hope of their salvation , then fear of their damnation ? if i did not , why doth hee suggest as if in this conclusion hee asserted more then i do ? if i have said so , let him shew it , or else let him bee taken for what hee is , a calumniator . . for his proof , would any man alledge this text to prove more hope of salvation of infants of believers then their damnation , if hee had any heed to what hee writes ? when the text expresly makes the blessedness of the man hath many children to bee not at all in this place , in reference to hope of the salvation of the children ▪ but in reference to his own safety and protection by his children , who may oppose enemies , and bee as arrowes or weapons to drive them back , or as helps to right his wrongs , and to embolden him to contend with them in the gate , which was counted a great blessing then , and agreeable to the promises of the legal covenant , as deut. . psal. . , , &c. may bee seen . but this is not meant of infants but of such as were grown up and able to defend their parents , and chiefly if not onely of males , nor is the man said to bee blessed by reason of the goodliness of them , but the multitude of them , and they are said to bee an heritage as the land of canaan , psal. ● . , . and his reward whether for their observing his law , or for other reason , such as for which nebuchadnezzar was rewarded with egypt , ezek. . , , . or as psal. . , . or as reward taken catachrestically for any gift . bee it meant of true believers ( though no words in the text evince it ) yet the children are said to be their heritage and reward not gods heritage , nor is there any intimation of happiness to the childe , and therefore not a word intimating more hope o● their salvation then fear of their damnation , but of outward benefit to the parent such as may bee common to infidels with believers , and consequently not a word for a strong ground of hope of the salvation of believers infants so dying , much l●ss more then i bring to that purpose . . saith mr. b. and why should children be joyned in standing church ordinances , as prayer , fasting , &c. if there were not strong hope of the blessing of these ordinances to them ? chron. . . the children that suck the breast were to bee gathered to the solemn fast , joel , . ( this will prove them also standing churchmembers , seeing they must joyn in standing ordinances ; ) so why received they circumcision ▪ a seal of the righteousness of faith , if there were not strong probability that they had the thing sealed and signified ? god will not fail his own ordinance where men fail not . answ. there 's nothing here endeavoured to bee proved but what i have also granted , that there is a strong probability that infants of believers so dying are justified and saved , and yet i see no strength in these allegations to prove it . for though the little ones and sucking children were to bee present to shew an universal humiliation , as did the beasts also , jonah . . yet the infants did not joyn in prayer , nor was the end of their presence any special blessing of the ordinance to them , but the moving god to spare the whole people , invaded or in danger of perishing by fami●e , nor were the prayer and fasting standing church-ordinances , any more then the covenanting deut. ● . nehem. . but occasional , nor doth this presenting of infants prove them standing church-members any more then the like jonah . proves those infants , or the ninivites beasts standing churchmembers . as for cir●umcision , that infants received circumcision as a seal of the righteousness of faith , is no where in scripture affirmed ; and how much paedobaptists are mistaken in their inference of the nature of sacraments in general , or circumc●si●n in special , from rom : . . hath beene often shewed before sect. , &c. the ends of circumcising of infants , was to distinguish the hebrews from other people , and to fore-signifie from what people christ was to come , and to engage them to observe the law of moses which they were to receive by reason of gods command whether they hoped for their childrens salvation , or not , abraham was to circumcise ishmael , though hee knew hee was not a childe of the promise , and isaac esau , though hee were rejected by god. the speech god will not fail his own ordinance where men fail not , is like the popish schoolmens conceit , that sacraments confer grace where no bar is put , and intimates that circumcision was gods o●dinance to assure at least rigteousness of faith to each infant circumcised , which is a false conceit . . saith mr. b. why else doth god so oft compare his love to that of a mother or father to the childe ? thes. . . num. , . isa. . . ps●l . . . answ. though i grant a strong probality of the salvation of believers infants so dying , yet to shew the vanity of mr. bs. scriblings , as if hee brought more for it then i do , i cannot but observe the slighty dealing of mr. b. in this point . for first , whereas hee alledgeth these texts as if god did therein compare his love to that of a mother or father to the childe , in the first paul ( not god ) compares himself to a nurse ; in the second , moses speaks of himself as if god had put an impossible burthen on him , as if he could as a nursing father bears his sucking childe , carry all that people to the promised land . in the third , god saith he , would not forget sion , who had said hee had forgotten them , though a mother should forget her sucking childe ; and psal. . . the love of god as a father is spoken of them that fear him . so that the two first texts were through heedlesness mis-alledged grosly by him , the other two express gods love onely to his obedient and seeking people , mention nothing of his love to their infants . . god doth compare his love to a fathers or mothers not because he is engaged to believers infants to save them , nor because he hath natural affection as they have , but to shew his gracious care and dealing towards his elect children . . gods love is no more comp●red to a believing parents love , then to an unbelievers ; and therefore if this prove a strong probability of the salvation of a believers infant so dying , it doth prove the salvation of an unbelievers as prob●ble . . gods love and care is compared to an eagles in carrying her young ones , deut. . , . christs to an he● , matth. . . according to mr. bs. reasoning , thi● should prove then the strong probability of t●e salvation of chickens . but i am ashamed that the world should see the nakedness of these magnified reasonings , though i be necessitated to uncover it . the th . from matth. . . is no more then i have alledged often for those infants ; and what mr. b. here alledgeth to prove this a right of other infants , is answered at large in the second part of this review , sect . . . saith he , we read of some that have been sanctified from the womb , and therefore were in a state of salvation ; and jacob was loved before he was born , and therefore before he had done good or evil was in the like state of salvation . answ. have not i also granted this thing , and that upon the same reasons ? why then doth mr. b. suggest , to draw par● is hearts from me to him , as if he said more in this then my self ? yet i cannot be very confident of the reason from jerem . . to which gal. . ● . is parallel , sith the sanctification was to the office of a prophet , which is appliable to infants so dying . . we find promises of salvation to whole housholds , where it is probable there were infants , act. . . answ. . acts . . is no probability that infants should bee meant , sith in the next v. it is said , he spake the word to all that were in his house , which is not to be said of infants ; and v. . he rejoyced with all his house , believing god. . if they should , yet this can be no more then a particular promise to him , unless this were true , that god will save every believer and his house ▪ and mr. b. over l●sheth in saying , we find promises of salvation made to whole housholds ▪ when there is no more but this one . the th . is from cor. . . and it is built on mr. bs. interpretation of [ holy ] as if it noted a separation to god as a peculiar people . but i have fully answered mr ▪ bs. th ▪ ch . and have shewed his mistake in the first part of this review , sect . , &c. and need to answer no more in this place . mr. b. goes on thus . it cannot be said , that these promises are verified according to their sense , if any mercy be given to any infant : here the persons are determined , that is , all the seed of the faithfull ; and we have large ground given probably to conclude , that it is eternal mercy that is intended to all that living to age do not again reject it , but that either at age keep covenant , or die in infancy before they break it . and we have certain ground to conclude , that this salvation belongeth to some infants , and visible churchmembership to all the seed of the faithfull . and i think this is more then mr. t. doth acknowledge them . answ. it is indeed , finding the argumen●s frivolous which mr. b. hath brought for the visible churchmembership of infants , though i acknowledge salvation belongeth to some infants . it is before shewed how the promises may be verified according to the sense of the words if any sort of mercy be given to any children of the faithfull : nor is it true , that in the promises brought by mr. b. the persons are determined to be all the seed of the faithfull , and how the contrary is determined by the apostle , rom. . , . according to mr. b. himself , is shewed before , and what reason there is to understand exod. . . of temporal mercies , is shewed above ; so that here is nothing new to be answered . he adds , if that matth. . . be well considered , it may make another argument full to the point . if little ones have their angels beholding the face of god in heaven , they shall be saved : for that is a mercy proper to the people of god. and that the text speaks of infants , others have fully proved . answ. i grant the conclusion and argument , but deny that it is at all to the point in question between us , and that any one hath proved that by little ones , matth. . . are meant infants . though the contrary be proved concerning matth. . , . in the second part of this review , sect . . where mr. bl. and mr. c. are answered : yet to shew the frovolousness of mr. bs. talk , i add . that matth. . . cannot be expounded one of these little infants ; for such a speech would shew that then there were more little infants before them : but it appears from v. , . there was but one set before them . . from v. , . the little ones were such as christ came to save , and that it was gods will none should perish : but this is true onely of the elect and true believers , not simply of infants as such . . the words following , v. , &c. shew they are meant of a sinning brother , ergo , not of infants . mr. b. adds . that though he dare not say there is a full certainty of the savation of all believers infants so dying , yet he professeth to think it better grounded then mine , who ( he saith ) shut them out of the church . but this i take to be and effect of that antipathy he hath against me , who still chooseth that opinion which is most opposite to me , and prefers it ; as p. . the opinion of the old and new socinians , who take away an ordinance , and whom he censures pag. . as above obedience , and so gods ; and the opinion of baptizers in infancy and at age too , pag. . and professeth he would have nothing to do with me when i offered assistancce to him in another point , as if he were like maldovat the jesuite that could have liked an interpretation had it not been calvins . but i leave him to the lord to judge him and me , and do not despair but that he may yet live to see his errour , and perhaps wish he had been better advised then so disdainfully to have rejected a friends offer . he saith , he would urge another argument here from the universality of redemption , christ dying for all , for every man , for the sins of the whole world , as the scripture speaketh ; but that it would require more time to explain himself in it then he could then spare . however he thinks no man should deny that christ died for every sort of men , and every age , and so for some infants . to which i reply , did he ever hear me deny it ? and if he did not , why doth he talk of proving it here where he disputes against me ? but he is willing to pick what quarrels he can with me . however when he intends to urge this argument , i hope i shall be provided to answer it , if it oppose my thesis . that the scripture saith christ died for every man , for the sins of the whole world , is more then i find : if i mistake him not , his universal redemption he holds is conditional onely , which i think to be a fiction , redemption and election in scripture being absolute in respect of persons , ●nd commensurate , redemption being as well from impenitency and unbelief as damnation : yet were it granted him , that he should thence infer , not the salvation of all , but of believers infants so dying and never performing the condition , is yet a riddle to me ; and i cannot yet imagine it to be any better then a sick-mans dream in mr. b. ch. . he urgeth his d . arg . from christs being head of the visible church in infancy , that infants may be members ; whi●h i deny not : nor is it the thing in question what they may be , but what they are . but this argument is answered before , sect . . and what he saith here out of irenaeus , proves not what he would infer , that irenaeus took them for visible churchmembers , because he saith , christ by the example of his age sanctifieth them . for every one sanctified by christ is not a visible churchmember : mr. b. saith before , pag. . we read of some that have been sanctified from the womb , were they visible churchmembers in the womb ? i know no absurdity in it to assert that christ was head of the church when an infant , and worshipped as such , and yet no infants should be visible churchmembers . mr. bs. perswasion that they know not gods will that think otherwise then he doth , is but an effect of his fond affection to his own brats . and yet when he himself saith , pag. . i confess it is disputable whether christ were ever a churchmember properly , he should not be very confident in asserting christ in infancy to have been head of the visible church . and for irenaeus his speech , it is so false , that were not mr. b. willing to catch at any shadow for his purpose , he would have concealed it . mr. bs. th . ch . and th . argument , is answered at large in the first part of this review , sect . , &c. ch. . he tels us , that his th . arg . is probable at least , that the scripture doth frequently and plainly tell us of the ceasing of circumcision ; but never speaks one word of the ceasing of infants visible churchmembership , therefore we are not to judge that it is ceased . that the antecedent or minor in this argument is false , is proved at large , sect . , , . the consequence is shewed to be invalid , in that other things of which the cessation is certain , as the freeing of servants , the dedication of the first born , are ceased , and yet not expressed so much in scripture as that of churchmembership . to this saith mr. b. the year of jubile was one of their sabbaths , and so a type , col. . . but i reply , though the year of jubile were a sabbath , yet this proves not that freeing servants then is any more said to be ceased then infants visible churchmembership . . sai●h he , the dedication of the first-born was evidently a type of christ , and the church under him : of both these many scriptures are plain but let it be proved , that the admitting of infants into the visible church is a meer type , or a meer judicial law proper to the jewish common-wealth , any more then the admitting of men or women into the church . i reply , . admitting of infants into the visible church , was no other then by their circumcising or presenting at the temple ; and these are ceased , as proper to the jewish church or commonwealth . . a thing may cease though we cannot prove it a meer type , nor a meer judicial law , as the receiving tythes , and paying them ; and things may remain though they were t●pes , as mount sion , the land of canaan , the people of israel , wh●ch were types , heb. . . gal. . . &c. . that the jewish infant churchmembership was not by a law , but by a fact of providence which took in the whole people of the jews into the church visible jewish , and consequently the infants as part of that people ; which by the breaking off that people , and taking into the church onely believers , is now ceased , as is shewed before , sect , , , . what mr. b. adds , if all nations should have become churchmembers th●y should have been circumcised , and then it had not been peculiar to the jews ; and that sichemites being circumcised would not have been subje●t to jacob , and that when in esthers time the people of the land became jews , they were not of the jewish commonwealth , and under their civil government ; is answered before , sect . . that which he saith , p. . that he hath sufficiently proved that infants ought to be admitted visible churchmembers , hath so little truth , that if the reader observe it , he shall find sca●ce any of his arguments so much as to conclude the admission of infants into the visible church , much less to prove it , but that they are visible churchmembers . whereby it is evident now ( which i could not observe in the dispute ) that mr. b. did leave the point to be proved , that infants ought to be admitted visible churchmembers ; and prosecuted another point instead of it , that they are visible churchmembers . but enough is done in answer to that also , which i pray the lord to bless for the undeceiving of the people of these nations who have been so shamefully misled by mr. bs. toy of an ordinance of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed , no where extant , that were they not either willing to be deceived , o● left to errour by god for their want of love to the truth , they could hardly have been deluded by such vain arguing as he hath vented . sect . lxxv . my arguments to prove the ingraffing rom. . . to be into the invisible church by giving faith , are vindicated from mr. bls. exceptions vind. ●aed . chap. . and mr. sidenham's exercit. chap. , . although mr. bls. manner of disputing hath been shewed to bee such as requires not any full answer , and would learned men compare , as men that sought truth , mine and his writings together , they would perceive the insufficiency of his reply , yet because i perceive some learned men do yet value his writings ( without good reason ) which oppose mine , i shall add somewhat more to shew how short his writings are of weakening any thing of mine . vindic. ●aed . ch . ● . sect . . having made an analasis of part of rom. . from v. . he takes on him to ground several undeniable positions . the third is the root of this tree ( viz. the first supreme universal root ) is abraham , isaac and jacob , not abraham alone so ishmaelites would bee of the body . nor abraham with isaac alone , so the edomites from esau would have been taken in . but the apostle in this chapter ( from old testament authority ) excludes both of these , abraham , isaac and jacob are therefore joyntly the root . answ. . that abraham onely is the root meant rom. . , , . i prove from rom. . , , . where abraham onely and no other of the patriarchs is termed the father of believers . but to bee the root rom. . , , . is all one with the father of believers . that the root notes a father mr. bl yeilds , that it notes not barely a natural father , is proved in that the gentiles should not be in that root , if it not●d barely a natural father , and that believers onely are branches of that root is proved from the text . . in that their standing is by faith . . that by unbelief some were broken off , vers . . which do plainly prove that they who were branches were believers , who were unbelievers were not branches . . that the partaking of the root could bee no otherwise then by faith , nor any other way ingraffing can bee meant is manifest ▪ in that the gentiles ( who had no other relation to abraham as a father then by believing as hee did ) partake of the root and are ingraffed into the olive . secondly , to master bls. argument , i answer by denying that the apostle doth in that chapter or any other exclude the ismaelites or edomites from the body . job , and other believing edomites were in the root and olive . yea if it were meant of the visible church and natural descent , ishmael and esau must be of the body who were of abraham by natural descent and circumcised , and so visible churchmembers . if mr. bl. deny they were in the body , because they were not of abraham , isaac and jacob , by this reason isaac and jacob should be excluded . for they were not from abraham , isaac , and jacob : they were not from themselves and yet were branches , and consequently they were not the root , but abraham alone , the root noting such a father as from whom all branches have descent . his fifth position is , the fatness of this tree is the glory of ordinances , of which the whole church partakes . answ. by ordinances hee means outward ordinances , as baptism , the lords supper , preaching the word , &c. by the whole church hee means the church visible . for that is his tenet all along , that the olive tree is the church visible , not the inv●sible . this is then mr. bls. position , that when it is said rom. . . and wast partaker together of the root and fatness of the olive tree , the meaning is , thou gentile church or believer art made partaker of outward ordinances of which the whole church partakes . now under the whole visible church he undoubtedly comprehends infants , and sure there is no ordinance of which infants are partakers according to mr. bls. tenet but baptism , so that then the apostle according to mr. bls. exposition , should mean no more by the fatness of the tree , of which the whole church partakes , but baptism . which is of it self so manifestly frivolous an exposition , as that i shall not need of set purpose to refute it . though , it is true , there is a glory and beauty in the ordinances of the new testament : yet first some of them , as the preaching of the gospel ( which is the most glorious ) those that are out of the visible church may partake of , and those wh●ch mr. bl. counts within may not partake of , i mean infants and some others . secondly , that fatness which is meant rom. . . passeth from the root to the tree , and thence to the branches , and therefore he that is said to bee partaker of the fatness of the olive tree , is first said to bee partaker of the root , but be the root abraham or as mr. bl. would have it isaac and jacob with him ordinances pass not from them . it is true circumcision was first begun in abraham , but all the rest of the jewish ordinances are according to scripture rather derived from moses then abraham , and to say they were partakers of the root , that is of circumcision ( which was the onely ordinance abraham , isaac and jacob did partake of ) is both false , for they were not circumcised ; and being so empty a thing as that it 's termed with all the jewish ordinances , a shadow col. . . heb. . . it had no glory then at all . and for baptism , the lords supper , &c. they passed not from abraham , isaac and jacob ; nor were they partakers of them , but were instituted by christ in the new testament . thirdly , the partaking of the root and fatness of the olive tree was by the ingraffing and consequent of it . but the ingraffing according to mr. bl. doth not make them partakers of outward ordinances . for the chief of ordinances , to wit , the preaching of the gospel , was the instrument of their ingraffing , as his own allegation shewes pag. . from acts . . and so was antecedent to the ingraffing , nor by the ingraffing were they partakers of the other outward ordinances . for though the heart were wrought to a professed subjection to the way of god in ordinances ( which is mr. bls. ingraffing ) and so ingraffed . yet they might bee never partakers of outward ordinances such as baptism and the lords supper , if either sickness or death prevented the administration or want of an administratour , or the elements , &c. hindered . fourthly , the fatness of the olive tree makes the partakers fresh and fruitful . but that is not outward ordinances , but the spirit of god , righteousness by faith , &c. of which i shall speak more in vindicating my fourth argument . mr. bl. saith farther , that the holiness rom. . . is such as is communicable from parent to childe , that is , necessarily communicated , as a root communicates to branches . this is so plain , that if it be denied all the apostles dispute falls . answ. it is true , that if the holiness bee not communicated from abraham to all his children by faith , who are believers as he was , the apostles dispute fals , but the apostles dispute holds though it bee not communicated to every childe of every believing father , which is mr. bls. conceit , as his following words shew . yea hence is a good argument to prove the holiness not to bee meant of meer visible church-membership , nor the root of every parent professing faith , because many of their children are never christian visible churchmembers , as experience abundantly proves , and so have not this holiness communicated to them . yea , mr. bl. saith , who knowes not that holy fathers have unholy children ? regenerate parents have issue unregenerate ? i may add , abortives , natural fools , still-born , bred up in mahometanism , renegado's , unbaptised , excommunicated , and consequently not visible churchmembers or federally holy . and it is most false in this holiness of visible churchmembership , or as mr. bl. cals it federal that the proposition holds , as is the father so is the childe , the father being without the childe is without ; the father being within the childe is within in regard of church estate , covenant holiness , eo nomine , because a branch of such a root , a childe of such a father ; which mr. bl. dictates here , but proves not , and hath been often refuted by me , nor is there any thing in rom. . . for it . yea mr. bls. own interpretation overthrowes this position . for if the root bee ( as his position is ) abraham , isaac and jacob ] then it is not every believing father , and if the root bee every believing father then all the branches of the tree are natural , and they derive their holiness by descent of nature , whereas it is plain from the text ( and mr. bls. fourth position is to the same purpose ) that the jews onely are natural branches , the gentiles are all ingraffed branches . mr. cuthbert sidenham in his exercit . ch . . takes upon him to demonstrate holiness and churchmembership of the children of believing gentiles from rom. . , , . and to answer my arguments ch . . against my opinion of the ingraffing into the invisible church he urgeth , then persons may be broken off from the invisible church , and takes notice of my answer in my examen p. . but saith nothing to my answer in my apology p. . though he could not but know of it , taking on him to answer my arguments in the next pages before . the rest he brings is from mr. b. and is answered by me in my review part . . sect . . &c. i agree with him in the position , that abraham is the root meant rom . . and that he is a root exemplary onely , nor do i deny that the apostles arguing is from a special prerogative to abraham to whom the promise was given gen. . . and that the promise did comprehend the elect of his natural seed , and that god had a more special regard to his natural seed in that promise then to other men● natural seed : yet not universally to his seed , nor is it true that the apostle makes the branches holy rom. . . by a prerogative of grace grounded on the promise of god made to believing fathers and their seed ▪ which is the same in the new testament and the old , as hee urgeth out of dr willet . for there is not that promise in the new testament , or old . and therefore the argument upon this conceit can have no strength in it . pag. . he layes down this position , wee believing gentiles are ingraffed into abrahams covenant in the room of the natural branches which were broken off . concerning which i say , that though i deny not the believing gentiles to have interest in abrahams covenant gen. . . that is , god is their god , and they have righteousness by faith as abraham had : yet the apostle doth not speak of their ingraffing into abrahams covenant , that ●s mr. sidenhams mistake , but into the olive tree , that is as mr. bl. the whole body of the church , which he would have meant of the visible , i of the invisible . now to mr. sidenhams arguments to that position ; i yeeld the conclusion of the first , that believing gentiles and their children are graffed in , but not all , or any as their children , and that the ingraffing is sutable to the breaking off , that is , that as the jewes and their children were broken off from the invisible church , in which the elect jewes and their children who were elect in former ages were for the greatest part , so the gentiles believers and their children are graffed in . yet mr. sidenham himself pag. . confesseth a very great disproportion , taking it as he doth for ingraffing into the visible church . for , saith he , there is this difference between the conveyance of priviledges of the jewes as natural branches , and the engraffed gentiles ; that the whole body of the jewes good and bad , were called branches ; now onely believers of the gentiles , who are called by the gospel , with their children , are ingraffed into that root . which is enough to shew that the gentiles were not ingraffed into the root or tree , as the jews by natural descent , but by calling of the gospel , and that the body of the gentiles or any nation of the gentiles is not ingraffed , but so many as are called . the ingraffing of the infant children with their parents into the visible church by an outward ordinance is but his own dream , and is overthrown by this , that the church christian visible is not by descent but calling ; not national but congregational , by voluntary covenant ; nor can the churches called independent hold this , which master sidenham , and master cobbet , and others of their way hold , that the ingraffing of the gentiles into the visible church is sutable to that of the jewes as being in their stead , but they must hold a national church , whi●h quite overturns the frame of their churches , and the reformation they contend for . to his second argument , the some that were broken off might be parents and children , or parents and not children , or children and not parents ; and of these there might be infants broken off without their own sin , or their parents , according to gods good pleasure onely . but of this i have said enough in answer to mr. geree and mr. baxter , in the first part of this review , sect . , . the conclusion of the third argument is granted , understood of ingraffing into the church invisible , not into the visible . to the fourth , that [ the fatness of the olive ] should note priviledges and outward advantages such as this , that the child should be visible churchmember with the father in the christian church , or that any other parent then abraham should have a seminal vertue to convey such church priviledge or fatness as the root mentioned rom. . . is a meer fancy ; nor is there any thing ephes. . . or any where else in scripture for it . to the objection , that now believers are onely branches , abraham onely the roote , and therefore the argument holds not , if the parent be holy so is the childe , being understood of other then abraham and his seed ; hee answers , that yet the branches well ingraffed become natural branches , and receive as much from the roote as those which grew naturally on it , so gentile believers must have the same priviledge , and that there are sprigges which grow out of branches which may bee termed immediate rootes . but hee doth not shew that the apostle or any wise man ever termed greater boughes of trees rootes to lesser ; neither dare hee say , the apostle meant every believing father by the root , rom. . . and therefore all this is impertinent to answer the objection , which was to invalidate the inference concerning the holiness of every believers infant , because the apostle saith , if the roote bee holy so are the branches , because abraham onely is the roote there . as for mr. bls. saying , i value it not , it being without scripture . it 's sufficient for present to shew the insufficiency of mr bls. and mr. ss. proofes . i pass on to vindicate my arguments from their pretended answers . how the dispute concerning the proof from rom. . , . for infants of believing gentiles visible churchmembership and baptism , was brought to this issue , whether the ingraffing rom. . . into the olive tree , be meant of joyning a person to the invisible church of the elect by giving faith according to electon , so that none are ingraffed but true believers or elect persons as i assert , is shewed in the first part of this review ▪ sect . . mr. bl. and mr. sydenham take on them to answer my arguments . the first is , that act of ingraffing to the church which is made gods act by his sole power with such an emphasis as implies it hopeless and impossible without the intervention of his omipotency , is , and can be no other ingraffing then into the invisible church by giving of faith according to election . but such is the ingraffing rom. . . as appears from v. . ergo. mr. sydenham answers , that to argue from gods power to his will , or to election , or from his power in general to the putting it forth absolutely in such a determinate act , is strange , unsound in divinity , and reason . but this is no answer . for there is no such arguing made by me . my arguing is none of those ways he mentions , but from the ascribing the act to god as done by his sole power , without which it were hopeless and impossible , to prove that it is more then man by his ordinary power can do , which can in this business be no other then the working of faith in the heart . and this the contraremonstrants thought sound arguing in the conference at the hague , and so do generally pleaders for irresistable conversion . and mr. sydenham makes it like to the resurrection of the dead , from v. ● . which sure no act of man can perform . but admission to the visible church may be performed by men , therefore the ingraffing cannot be admission into the visible church , but an higher act of giving faith according to election . but saith he , it is a work of mighty power to take away the prejudice against christ , in jews and gentiles , to bring to outward confession . to which i reply , it is no such work but may be done by moral suasion of orators or preachers , specially backt with the encouragement and commands of kings and emperours , as experience hath often shewed , therefore this cannot be all which is meant by the ingraffing . but saith he , it will require an act of power to gather them but visibly once again , and bring them into one entire body to make a visible church , when they are so scattered up and down all nations . to which i reply , . the gathering them together into one place , is not ingraffing them into the visible church ; for ingraffing them imports joyning them to others , but this gathering is a making them a distinct body of themselves ; the gathering into one place is accidental to their ingraffing i●to their own olive , he ingraffing may be without it ; and if they go together , it is likely the ingraffing will be before that gathering , and therefore that gathering and this ingraffing cannot be the same . . that gathering may be by the power and favour of emperors and kings , as it was by cyrus his proclamation heretofore in their return to jerusalem , and therefore is not this act of ingraffing which is ascribed to god by his sole power with such an emphasis as implies it un●easable but by his omnipotency . mr. bl. saith , that i do vainly make this engraffing to be in their sense ▪ no more then baptizing . but . whether i wrong my antagonists , may be perceived from mr. ms. words in his def●nce , p. . to what i said , the jews infants were graffed in by circumcision ; therefore ours are to be ingraffed by baptism . you answer , by demanding whether in good sadness i do think the apostle here means by graffing in , baptizing , or circumcision , or insition by outward ordinances ; for if that were the meaning , then breaking off must be meant of uncircumcising , or unbaptizing . to which i reply , that in good sober sadness i do think that graffing in is admission into visible membership , or visible communion with the church of christ ; and that the external seal of their visible graffing in was circumcision , and of ours baptism . and he disputes against the ingraffing into the invisible chu●ch , therefore he can understand it of no more then baptizing . . nor can mr. bl. conformably to his tenet . for if the ingraffing be such a● is common to infants and parents , and it be admission into the visible church of both , and infants are no way else admitted then by baptizing , the ingraffing is no other . but , saith he , we understand a discipling of gentile nations , working the heart to a professed subjection to the way of god in ordinances tendered , and assent of heart unto all that is there promised , and acknowledge it a work above the power of man , and confess it to be solely in the hand of god , as gen. . . acts. . . we do not speak of the bare admission of one that stands intituled , but the working of them to such a title ; and if an outward profession bee in the power of mans will , yet to bring men or nations to such a profession cordially to embrace the gospel so farre as to assent to the truth of it , is above man , and a worke of no such ease . i reply , . if it be not bare admission , but such a work as he saith , then infants are none of the branches ingraffed , nor doth the ingraffing belong to them , sith they have onely bare admission into the visible church by baptism . . if the profession be onely from fear , or carnal hopes , this may be wrought by teachers , orators , especially the favour and power of princes concurring , and then it is no act above mans power to ingraff . but if the heart be brought to assent cordially , and so to profess christ in sincerity ( as some of mr. bls. words seem to mean ) then it is by giving faith according to election , and the ingraffing into the invisible church : and so mr. bl. while he seems to answer my argument , doth unawares confirm it , through the irrefragable force of the truth . which might have been further cleared from the text , rom. . . where it is said , they also if they abide not in unbelief shall be graffed in , for god is able to graff them in again . whence it follows , while they abide in unbelief they are not graffed in , when they believe they are ; ergo , god ingraffs by giving faith according to election . my second argument was from v. , , . where the ingraffing is termed reconciliation opposite to casting away . to this mr. sydenham answers , . if i mean reconciliation in the strictest sense , as it denotes pardon of sins , and being made friends with god by christs atonement and mediatorship , then many absurdities may follow : . that the jews and their rejection was the ground of the gentiles ? reconciliation unto god. . that no reconciliation was obtained for the gentiles before the jews were broken off . . that those which are reconciled and their sins pardoned , may be cast off ; for so were the jews and the gentiles threatned with the same misery on the same ground . answ. . if by [ ground ] be meant [ cause , ] i deny that to follow on the exposition of reconciliation in the strictest sense ; if by [ ground ] be meant onely [ occasion ] i grant it follows , but count it no absurdity , it being the plain d●claration of the apostle . . i grant the second , 〈◊〉 understood of the fulness or body of the gentiles , and count it no absurdity ; after the time of gods separating of israel to be his people , there were onely some proselytes reconciled to god , but no full and ample number , so as to make any numerous church of themselves . . the third i yeeld as no absurdity , understanding the casting off of the same people , not the same persons , from what their ancestors were , not themselves . but mr. s. answers ly . by distinction of reconciliation into ou●ward and inward , and he would have it meant of outward reconciliation , by bringing them in under the means of the gospel and the outward dispensation , of the church , which is gods common way to salvation , and is to some effectual to inward grace , unto others onely to outward privil●dges . answ. . this reconciliation would exclude infants , for they are not so reconciled and consequently not ingraffed , and so the argument for their ingraffing hence is evacuated , if the reconciliation ( which is confessed to be the same with the ingraffing ) be such as agrees not to infants . . he doth noth not so much as offer to produce one place of scripture in which reconciliation is so taken , nor one approved writer so expounding it . . nor can it be expounded so . for it is no reconciliation at all which he describes . in reconciliation there is still taking away enmity , but in the bringing under the meanes of the gospel there may be no taking away of enmity , either from them to god , for they may hate him as much , yea more then before ; or from god to them , for he may ha●e them as much or more then before . . nor in this place can it be the meaning . for the reconciliation of the world , v. . is v. ● . the riches of the world , of the gentiles . but their riches imports something opposite to their fall , diminishing , or detriment ; and their fall must be to damnation , for it is v. . opposed to salvation , their riches must needes therefore bee to salvation , so termed vers . . but , saith he , the body of the gentile world ( which i mean ) are not so reconciled as by election and saving grace , though the sound of the gospel hath gone through all the world . answ. the body of the gentiles , that is a full ample part of them incomparably greater then the number of the proselytes to the jewish church is reconciled , and hath been for many ages to god by election and saving grace . mr. bl. also answers by distinction of reconciliation gradual , either to take in , or hold a people in visible communion ; or total , to receive them with an everlasting delight in them . the former he exemplifies out of exod. . , , , , . and thus applies it . reconcilia●ion is opposite to casting away . the jews then by reconciliation are brought into that state , out of which they were once cast ; but they were not cast out of the church invisible ; not out of election and justification , but out of a visible churchstate and fellowship . breaking off , as mr. t. well saith , is the same as casting away , and reconciliation the same as ingraffing . their reconciliation or ingraffing is then into that condition from which they were broken , out of which they were cast ; now they were cast out of the church visible , not out of the church invisible ; when they were in a churchstate they were nigh unto god , deut. . . psal. . . ephes. . . their reconciliation brings them into the same churchstate , which is a reconciliation gradual not total . answ. the casting away v. . is the same with the casting away v. , . which is opposite to gods fore-knowledge v. . to the election of grace v. . which obtained , and the castaway were hardned or blinded v. , , , . which he that understands of any other casting away then from the grace of election , and effectual calling , and the invisible church seems to me to pervert the apostles meaning very grosly . nor do i conceive it any absurdity to say that the jewish people in pauls time were broken off or cast away from that election , and state in the invisible church which they never had in their own persons , but their ancestors had , and they in course had obtained but for their unbelief . as for the reconciliation in all places where he mentions it in his epistles , hee means it of that reconciliation which is by effectual conversion , and justification , through christs death , on which followes salvation , rom. . , . cor. . , , . col. . . and not of mr. bls. gradual reconciliation , of which hee hath not brought one instance for the use of the word in his sense , nor is his example any thing like to the business in hand : for it was not a reconciliation so as to bring them to the priviledges of a visible churchstate , but so to pardon the sin of worshipping the golden calf , as not utterly to destroy that people , though the sinners fell in the wilderness : which was onely an abatement of punishment , not an estating in priviledges as mr. b. would have it . but mr. bl. to my urging any one to shew mee in scripture or any approved protestant writer , such use of the word reconciliation as his is , and my alledging protestant approved writers for my exposition , thus saith . . when mr. t. pleaseth , hee can heap up phrases which are onely once used in a select sense in scripture , and that to uphold his interpretation of holy and unclean , cor. . . when the context clearly evinces the contrary . but that this is false , and that the text clearly evinceth my interpretation is fully proved in the first part of this review . section , &c. secondly , sai●h hee , master t when hee pleases , dare undertake the defence of an opinion held unanimously by all papists , and as unanimously opposed by protestants , as in that of covenant holiness . but this also is another of master bls. calumnies and unbrotherly taunts which hee frequently useth instead of answers , and if there had been in him any candour of minde towards mee he had been satisfied with my answer in my postscript , sect. . but sith hee writes against me in a cynical humour , i pass by his snarlings , and leave the cause to the lord. thirdly , saith he , gomarus , t●m . . p. . observes that world is taken in tha● sense , in rom. . , . as in no other scripture . but i think this is not true , it is taken in the same sense tim. . . and i think cor. . , . joh. . . fourthly , saith he , if recontiliation in no other place be so used , yet little is gained ; seeing as wee have seen there are paralel phrases that hold out the same thing to us . answ. . those paralel phrases were never yet seen by me . . the thing is gained which is here contended for , if reconciliation still signifie total reconciliation in the scripture when it speakes of gospel reconciliation , and there is no cogent reason to move us to recede from that sense here , and reconciliation be the same with ingraffing , surely ingraffing is by giving faith according to election , and the church into which the ingraffing is , is the invisible . mr. bl. produceth a speech of ravanelius ( which i have not ) for his sense . but the words as hee produceth th●m seem not to mee to have that sense which mr. bl. alledgeth them for , but rather my sense , and a passage in the annotations , and another in dr. featley the author of them on those epistles . but in neither doth dr. featley say by the reconciliation to god rom. . . is meant bare vouchsafing a visible churchstate ; and by c●sting away , and breaking off a loss of visible priviledges , nor do peter martyr or euc●r say so . and however i finde protestant writers do expound the ingraffing and breaking off in many of their writings of the visible church , yet those speeches which i alledged out of mr. ball and dr. ames are full to prove the reconciliation rom. . . to be saving , and they that understand by breaking off there , more then the loss of visible priviledges , may notwithstanding mr. bls. censure without any shift in that point be acquitted from arminianism . my third arg . was from v. . ingraffing must be by giving faith , because it is by faith that the branch stands in the tree . to this mr. s. and bl. both answer by granting the conclusion , that it is by giving faith . but this faith mr. s. makes profession of faith , mr. bl. a faith of profession . to which i reply . . if it were faith professed by which the branches stand in the tree , yet infants are excluded from being of the branches , for they stand not by faith professed . . that it is not profession of faith , or faith barely dogmatical which is meant rom. . . i prove . thus . that standing which is a perseverance unto salvation is not by bare profession of faith , but true justifying faith . but the standing rom. . . is that stand●ng which is a perseverance unto salvation , ergo . the major is manifest ; for it is not a bare profession of faith whereby a man perseveres to salvation , but that which is justifying . the minor is plain from the text . the standing which is opposed to falling in which god shews his severity , is standing by perseverance unto salvation . this i presume will be yeilded , direct opposite termes being according to logick rules to bee understood in a direct opposite sense . but the standing rom. ● . . is opposed to falling in which god shews his severity vers . ● . ergo. . the standing which was to bee prevented by beeing not high minded but fearing , and the losing of which was to bee feared , is not a bare standing in the visible church , nor by bare profession of faith , but the loss of the standing was to be feared , and to be prevented by not being high minded but fearing , v. . for the loss of standing in the visible church needs not bee so much feared , and a less care would serve turn to prevent it . . that standing which would not prevent gods not sparing , is not the standing meant rom. . . for that would prevent gods not sparing , v. . but the standing onely in the visible church by profession of faith , would not prevent gods not sparing , matt. . . ergo. . that faith and standing are meant here , which in o●her places in that and other epistles are meant by the apostle , when hee speakes of the same thing . but in those places standing so as to persevere to salvation , and justifying faith are meant , as rom. . . and . . cor. . . ergo. . that standing and that faith is not meant of which it may bee said the root beareth them not , verse . but of them who onely stand in the visible church by a profession of faith , it may bee said the root beareth them not . for the roo● is abraham , and hee is a root or father to none but those who have justifying faith , rom. . , . ergo. . by that faith the branches stand which is directly opposite to the unbelief by which others were broken off , vers . . but that was unbelief of heart , and not of mouth onely , ergo , the faith is in the heart , and not in the mouth onely by which the branches stand . . that ●aith the branches stand by v. . by which they are partakers of the root and fatness of the olive . but that is justifying faith , as shall be shewed in the vindication of the next argument , ergo. mr. s. takes upon him to prove it meant of the visible church by profession of faith by some of master ●s . arguments , which because they are answered already in the first part of this review , sect. , &c. i let pass : onely whereas hee saith , can any man conceive that they should boast because the branches the jewes were broken from election and true faith , that they might be graffed in by a new act of god● election , and by true and saving faith ? i answer , though they might not thus boast , yet they might boast that god having broken off the jews , had in their stead ingraffed them , by giving saving faith according to his eternal election . and to what hee saith from v. , , , . what , are they exhort●d to look least they bee cut off from gods election , & c ? will m. t. turn a downright arminian , that hee may have any plea against the baptising of poor infants ? i answer , . that i scarse think that scribler did well know what arminianism was , and that i have sufficiently acquit●ed my self from that which is indeed arminianism , and better then his magnified aurthor mr. b. . that ●e might with as good reason impeach the apostle of downright arminianism , in that he exhorts us to give all diligence that we make our calling and election sure , pet. . . mr. bl. when he cannot untie this knot , endeavours to cut it asunder by this assertion , after many words which need no answer ; that there is no such thing in all scripture as ingraffing into the church invisible by faith ; all ingraffing is into the body visible , and therefore by a faith of profession . and yet his three first arguments whereby hee would prove this proposi●ion , do conclude no ingraffing but into christ , and consequently neither into the invisible nor visible , which is directly to contradict his own saying , all ingraffing is into the body visible . but let 's view his proofs about this position con●erning which it pleaseth mr. bl. to enter into the lists with me . . saith hee , all ingraffing is into that subject , which immediately receives what is ingraffed , as the stock receives the syens , but it is christ , and not the church invisible that receives the elect believer ; christ dwels in us by faith , so wee in christ , ephes. . . answ. ●his argument is made by mr. bl as if hee on purpose meant to refute himself . for . he wou●d prove there is no ingraffing of elect believers into the invisible church but into christ , because hee onely receives the elect believers ; which if true it would follow ; first , that elect believers are not ingraffed into the visible church , but onely non-elect professours of faith who are hypocrites , and so the visible church should have no elect ones in it , but all reprobates . secondly , i● the reason were good there should bee no ingraffing of prof●ssors of faith into the visible church contrary to his assertion , that all ingraffing is into the body visible . for it is christ that immediately receives , that is owns or acknowledgeth bare professours of faith as visible churchmembers , as well as he receives , that is owns and acknowledgeth as his invisible members , them who are ingraffed into his invisible body . . if wee be ingraffed by that faith by which christ dwels in us and we in christ , ephes. . . then we are ingraffed into the olive by that ●aith which is justifying ( for by no other ●aith doth christ dwell in us nor wee in him , nor is any other meant ephes. . . as is apparent from the text , the prayer of the apostle being not for a bare dogmatical faith , which they had already , but justifying , persevering , whereby christ might dwell in their hearts by his spirit , &c. ) and the ingraffing is into christ , and consequently into the invisible church . but so it is by mr. bls. argument , ergo . . i answer ingraffing is a metaphor and it notes uniting or joyning , and this joyning is not natural but spiritual or moral , and may bee at a remote bodily distance , and without the knowledge of those to whom the person is ingraffed , and may be to christ , and to his invisible body or visible , without any act of the church visible or invisible which may bee termed receiving ; yea if mr. bs. position bee right , plain script . proof , &c. part . . ch . . that a man living alone in america may yet bee a member of the visible church . for hee hath that which constituteth him a visible member though there bee none to discern it , a man may bee ingraffed into the church visible though neither hee know any other churchmember , nor any other know him , and therefore i deny mr. bls. major proposition in his argumen● , if understood ( as it must be if it be to the purpose ) of that metaphorical ingraffing which is rom. . , &c. saith he , all ingraffin● is into that which gives sap and juyce to the ingraffed , as the stock from the root to the syens ; now christ gives sap to the elect believing , not the church ; and therefore it is not into the church , but into christ. answ. . this argument also gainsays mr. bls. proposition ▪ that all ingraffing is into the body visible ; for it is not the body visible that gives sap to the elect believing , or professors of faith , but christ ; and therefore by this argument there is no ingraffing into the body visible . . christ onely gives sap and juice effectively , abraham exemplarily ; the church doth it onely as a vessel receiving it , as the stock receives it first , then the branch ; the veins receive the bloud , then the other parts of the body : and if mr. bls. major be understoood of any other giving juice , it is denied ; if of this , the minor . . saith he , if saving faith ingraff the branch into the church invisible , then the church invisible is the proper object of such faith ; but the church is no such object of faith , but christ. answ. . the same argument holds thus , if profession of faith ingraff into the church visible then the church visible is the proper object of such profession : but the church visible is no such object , but christ ; therefore there is no ingraffing by profession of faith into the church visible , contrary to mr. bls. tenet . . to say the church invisible is the object of faith , is no more then to say , to believe the holy catholick church is an article of the creed , and this i think mr. bl. counts no absurdity . . the consequence of the major proposition is denied . fai●h that saves hath the object christ , and as it respects christ doth unite or ingraff us to him as to our head , and to the invisible church as his body . . saith he , that supposed ingraffing into the invisible church , is either known to the body invisible , or unwitting ; if known , then it is not invisible . they have no light to discern an invisible work if unknown , then there could not be such a dispute about the new ingraffing of gentiles , nor complaint of breaking off of the jewes , all being done by an invisible translation , and so the subject of the question is taken away . answ. it was known to some of the invisible , to others not ; though it were known yet it might be invisible , they had light to discern an invisible work : though the work were unknown to some , yet there might be a dispute about the new ingraffing of gentiles , and complaint of breaking off the jews , as there was acts . though all were done by an invisible translation : so that there is no truth or strength in this rope of sand mr. bl. makes , and the subject of the question still remains . there is as much futility in the rest of his dictates . scheibler saith in his topicks , a not-being cannot be a part dividing ; yet he sai●h , in case any defend that to be which yet is not , in controversies such a division is to be supposed . but how vainly mr. bl. hath disputed against an ingraffing into the invisible church , may be discerned and thereby how frivolously 〈◊〉 compares it to a mountain of ayr . and what he saith , that the access of the gentiles in the acts was an ingraffing into the church visible , may be granted , and it may be true that it was into the invisible church also ▪ one new man , ephes. . . is true onely of the invisible church ; for the gentiles were never one visible church with the jews , except some few proselytes of them . that the visible church communicates sap and juyce which is the fatness of the olive in ordinances , and that saith dogmatical looks upon the church ( meaning the visible ) as the partial object , are di●tates , which i need not refute , sith there is no proof brought for them . as i concei●e he means them , they are false ; so much for the vindication of my third argument . my fourth argument is from v. . thus , that ingraffing is meant v. . whereby the wild olive is co-partaker of the root and ●atness of the olive tree : but such is onely by giving faith according to election ; ergo. i proved the minor by shewing that abraham is there the root as the father of the faithfull , and the fatness of the olive not priviledges of outward ordinances , but righteousness . mr. sydenham answers it by referring to mr. bl. and censuring my answer to him as a poor evasion , which i shall free from this censure in my reply to mr. bl. yet mr. s. scribles somewhat besides , which i shall reply to . he begins with questions , . ●ere not the natural branches which were broken off partakers of the fatness of the root ? answ. no. and were they all elected and partakers of saving graces , or outward priviledges onely ? answ. none of the branches broken off were elected or partakers of saving graces , though some were of outward priviledges . and why then should it be thought absurd for the gentiles by ingraffing to p●rtake of the fatness of the root onely in outward priviledges , seeing it was so with the natural branches , and they all grow on the same root ? answ. the natural branches as natural did not grow on the same root with the ingraffed ; abraham was not a natural father to the ingraffed branches , they descended not from him by natural generation , nor did the natural branches which were broken off grow on the same spiritual root with the ingraffed . abraham was indeed the father of the faithfull gentiles , and they his seed spiritually ; but so he was not ●o the jews broken off ▪ nor they ever in their own persons in the olive tree , as it notes the church of true believers , or in abraham the root as is meant rom. . . nor were ever partakers of the fatness of it , but the gentiles were ; nor did the jews fall from election and saving graces which they had in their own persons , but which they had in course been partakers of if they had believed , which i have cleared more fully in my answer to mr. cobbet , in the first part of this review , sect . . he tels me further , it 's improper to call a root an exemplary cause ; there is no harmony between them ; and example conveyed nothing ; here is a conveyance of fatness . answ. it is improper to term an exemplary cause a root , for it is a metaphor ; but it is no more improper then to term an exemplary cause a father , as the apostle doth abraham the father of believers , rom. . , . when yet the text makes him only such by his exemplary believing ; and if there were harmony between a father and ●n exemplary cause , though abraham conveyed not faith or righteousness , but as an example ; there is harmony between a root and an exemplary cause , though it convey nothing but as an example : nor is it unsuitable to good language to say , the ingraffed branches are partakers of the fatness or fulness of abraham as an example . that fatness the jews had from abraham which is meant rom. . . they had not from him as a natural father , nor did god make the evangelical covenant with him and his natural seed , nor do the ingraffed branches ever become natu●al branches , though they partake of evangelical benefits as well as the believing jews , who were natural branches . what mr. s. adds in answer to my objection , that if it were meant of outward priviledges it were false ; for the gentiles were not partakers of the outward priviledges of abraham , that abraham is a root in the new testament as well as in the old , i grant ; but deny what he adds , and still stands by vertue of the covenant to believers and their children : for neither is there such a covenant , and if there were , yet abraham could be a root onely to his natural seed , not to gentiles by vertue of that covenant . and what he adds , that though old testament ordinances were taken away with the jews and that church-state , yet the root is not taken away ; but the new testament priviledges grow on the same root ; and our ingraffing in gives us to be partakers of the fatness of them , as well as it gave to the jews the participation of former priviledges until they were broken off ; letting pass the vanity of the speeches , that our ingraffing gave to the jews the participation of former priviledges , which they had not by our ingraffing , but their own propagation from the root , and that the jews had the priviledges till they were broken off , whereas the persons broken off never had the fatness meant rom. . . all this answer avoids not the objection , but plai●ly grants the argument . for if the old testament ordinances and the jewish churchstate were taken away ( which all that are against a national church-frame must aver ) then if by fatness be meant outward ordinances and churchstate , the gentiles cannot be said to partake of them , nor they be meant by the fatness , rom. . . let 's examine what mr. bl. saith to this argument . . he denies that he ever said every believing parent is the root , a root he makes them , not the root . but by his leave i charge him with nothing but what doth plainly follow from his words . for that is the root according to him which communicates covenant holiness and church-state , and of whom it is verified if the root be holy so are the branches . but this is said by him in his vindic. faed . p. . and elsewhere , of every believing parent ; therefore if mr. bl. avouch his own arguings , he makes every believing parent the root , rom. . , . what mr. bl. speaks , that other parents are roots to their posterity , is granted , and needed not to be proved by mr. bl●ut ●ut that they being holy persons are holy roots communicating covenant holiness to their children , is not pr●ved by mr. bl. that the covenant or promise of god made to abraham , gen. . . & , . did assure and ●o constitute abraham to be the root of the church of true believers , is not denied , nor that circumcision did seal to him the righteousness of faith as a believer and the father of believers , rom. . , . but the form denominating him father of believers , or root of the olive , is propagating them by his exemplary faith : nor was david by his covenant , or jesse , or any other believing parent a root or father in the sense rom. . . & . , . though they were natural roots to their posterity , and builders of the house of israel , and the fathers cor. . . by natural generation ; yet none are said to build as abraham , from whom the fatness , rom. . . is derived , and not from any other intermediate father . for abraham had been father though he had had no child by natural generation , mat. . . descending from him : nor can it be t●ue , that he is termed the root by reason of natural generation ; for then the gentiles had not been bran●hes and children , and ●ll the branches had been natural , contrary to v. , . to this saith mr. bl. he makes them wild onely at their first ingraffing , and so was all terahs race wild likewise , till that change of faith wrought in abrahams call , and the covenant god entred with him ; we now are natural as they were , and cannot be called wild , but in our first original . answ. they that were ingraffed were still branches of the wild olive , and so are we that are believers of the gentiles , for that title is by nature and natural descent , rom. . . which is not changed by grace , though the fruit and sap be changed that is the qualities and actions by ingraffing : we that are believers of the gentiles are not the branches according to nature , for that is plainly meant of the jews onely , rom. . . when it is said , they that are according to nature shall be graffed in their own olive . which shews that the term they that are according to nature i● proper to the jews : but if every believing parent should be the root , rom. . , . then every gentile believers child should be a natural branch , contrary to v. . for they are all besides nature , and no believing gentile nor his child is now or hath been a natural branch in the sense the apostle means , rom. . . but mr. bls. chief objection is this , if the ingraffing be by a saving faith onely , to derive saving graces personal●y inherent , as a fruit of election from abraham , then it must needs be that we are elect in abraham ▪ abraham may say , without me ye can do nothing , and he that believeth in me , out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water : and we may say , the life that we live in the flesh , we live by faith in the son of terah . this must necessarily follow , if abraham be the root , no● onely respective to a conditional covenant , but to the graces under condition covenanted . answ. . this objection may be thus retorted , if the ingraffing be by a faith of profession onely , to derive onely outward ordinances , outward priviledges , covenant holiness , visible churchmembership , as a fruit of the covenant from abraham , isaac , and jacob the root , then we are i● covenant in abraham , isaac , and jacob : they may say without us ye cannot be visible churchmembers , &c. he that professeth faith in us , shall have outward church priviledges ; the priviledges we have in the visible church , we have by profession of faith in the son of terah . this must necessarily follow , if abraham , isaac , and jacob be the root respective to the covenant and covenant holiness , as mr. bl. asserts . when mr. bl. hath freed himself from these absurdities , i shall have somewhat more to answer him . . in the mean time my answer in my apology is , that the absurdities follow not on my opinion , who make not abraham a roo● as communicating faith by infusion or impetration mediatory as christ , but as an exemplary cause of believing , in which sense he is stiled the father of believers , rom. , . to this mr. bl. in his flirting fashion replies thus , a root not by communication , but example ; an ingraffing not to have any thing communicated from the root , but to imitate it , is such a catachresis as may well make all rhetorick ●shamed of it ; and if the sun ever saw a more notable piece of non sense , i am to seek what sense is . a root is too low in the earth to have its examples followed , and a syens sucks in juyce , but knowes not how to imitate . answ. . mr. bl. grosly abuseth me by insinuating as if i mentioned a root not by communication , but example : and ingraffing not to have any thing from the roo● , but to imitate it : but this i said , that abraham is not termed the root as communicating faith by infusion , or impe●ration mediatory as christ , but as an exemplary cause of believing , and the ingraffing i make to bee gods act of giving faith after abrahams example , whereby righ●eousness is communicated from abraham as the precedent or pattern , according to which god gives both , though the branches do not themselves imitate abraham . now this is no more non-sense then to term him a father without any other begetting or communicating then as an exemplary cause , which the apostle doth , rom. . , . and ( as i shew in the first part of this review , sect. . pag. ● . ) dr. willet , diodati , pareus , do so expound the root and father of the faithfull ; so that if there bee non-sense , these learned men with the apostle are to bee charged with it , as well as my self , which may redound more to mr. bls. then to the shame of rhetorick . and if a root bee too low in the earth to bee as an example , so is a fathers begetting too hidden a thing to bee our example , yet abrahams believing and justification may bee gods example according to which hee gives faith and righteousness . . when mr. bl. makes abraham , isaac and jacob , the root as communicating ordinances , visible churchmembership , &c. i would know how hee makes them communicating roots of these to believing gentiles infants . sure not by natural generation , for neither mediately nor immediately are they roots to them that way : not by teaching or example , for they are not things imitable , nor are they to them teachers , or visible examples : not by communicating to them the covenant , that is , gods act . what way soever hee make them the root according to his opinion there will bee as much non-sense and shame to rhetorick , and less truth in his explication then in mine . what hee adds , that whatsoever kinde of root i make it , yet it is a communicative root , vers . . i grant it in the sense expressed , not of communication by infusion or mediatory impetration , but as an ●dea . and what hee saith further , that the term father and root are not full synonyma's , yet in the main they agree ; is as much as i need to shew that it is no more non-sense to term him a root who communicates sap onely as a pattern , then it is to term him a father who begets onely as an example . and whereas hee saith , both metaphors aptly set forth what the branches as from a root , the children as from a father receive , namely their title to the covenant from him ; and therefore as to abraham , so to all israel pertained the covenants and the adoption , rom , . , . and so to all that are become children and branches with them . i grant the metaphors set forth what the branches and children receive from the root and father : but that the thing received is title to the covenant in mr. bls. sense , that is to be partakers of outward ordinances ( which is more truly non-sense then my expression of a root by exemplarity , or that to abraham and so to all israel pertained the covenants and adoption , rom. . , . or that to the ingraffed branches or gentile children of abraham , belonged the covenants and adoption and other p●iviledges which are there appropriated to israel after the fl●sh , though not imparted to all ) there alledged , is denied . title to the covenant of grace is not communicated to gentile believers any otherwise , then in that they are made abrahams seed by faith , and this is communicated to them no otherwise from abraham then as an example , and therefore he is a root no other way ●hen i assigne , if there bee any other way it is more then yet mr. bl. hath shewed . yet hee adds , the title father is yet extended to a greater latitude , as hee doth impart to his issue ( as before ) so hee is a pat●ern and example as even natural parents are likewise according as rom. . ● . ( quoted by mr. t. ) is set forth , yet that place is too palpably abused . answ. though fathers bee examples and patterns to their children in their actions , yet not all nor onely parents are such , nor is abraham called a father there because hee was a good pattern onely , but because hee as the a●chtype or primitive pattern begat jews and gentile believers as his seed to faith , nor in this or any thing have i abused the apostle . mr. bl. tels mee . the steps of the faith of the father abraham is the doctrine of faith which abraham believed , or the profession of faith which hee made . all that were professedly jews , and all that were professedly christians , w●lk in the steps of that faith : all circumcised believers had not that faith that just●fies , nor yet all the uncircumcised ; and abraham is a father of both . hee could bee exemplary as a pattern to bee followed , onely in that which is external ; his faith quà justifying could not bee seen to bee imitated . answ. i abhor it to abuse the apostle so palpably as mr. bl. doth here . for it appears not onely from the main drift of the apostle in the whole chapter precedent , specially v. , . but also from the very words v. . that righteousness might be imputed ●o them also , that the apostle speaks of that faith onely which is justifying , which is believing with the heart , rom. . and therefore those speeches are palpably false , that the steps of the faith of the father abraham is the doctrine of faith which abraham believed ( which may be by a teacher that neither believes nor professeth ) or the profession of faith which he made ( which a judas or simon magus might have , and so should have righteousness imputed to them as abraham had ) that all professed jewes or christians walke in the steps of that faith , that abraham is father of those uncircumcised believers who had not that faith that justifies . as for mr. bls. reason , it is against himselfe ; for abrahams profession could no more bee seene to bee imitated in the apostles dayes then his faith as justifying : both might be known by gods word , and be followed as a pattern , though i conceive the apostle makes those to walk in the steps of abrahams faith , who do believe as hee did , though they never saw or heard of abrahams b●lieving , as he may be said to write after a copy who writes the same , though he never saw the copy . he adds , and the like he hath pag. . i make abraham onely the root , as he is onely the ●ather of believers exemplarily ; and that which made him the father of believers , was not the covenant , but his exemplary faith , as i gather from the words of the apostle , rom. . , , , , . did none but abraham give an example unto others of believing ? the apostle to the hebrews sets him out , chap. . as one example among many ▪ we find many that went before him , abel , enoch , noah ; and more that followed after him . and i should rather think that the text by him produced , proves without any contradiction , that the covenant made abraham the father of believers ; he is the called three father of us all , and a text quoted for it , which is gen. . . a father of many nations i have made thee : and whether that be not by vertue of covenant , let the context be consulted , together with the apostles words , rom. . . he closed with god in covenant , and accepted the seal of the covenant , that according to covenant he might be the father of all them that believe . answ. . if abel , enoch , noah , be set out as examples of believing with a faith justifying , heb. . , , , . by which noah became heir of the righteousness which is by faith , then it is not true which mr. bl. ●aith a little before , that abraham could be exemplary as a pattern to be followed onely in that which is external . . many before and after did believe as abraham , and they are examples to us , pleb . . . yet we find not any whose faith was remarkably tried and approved as abrahams , and therefore none deno●inated the fat●er of believers besides him . . it is granted the promise or covenant was the object of abrahams faith , and that it did assure that he should be the father of believers both of jews and gentiles ; yet the reason of the denomination of father of believers is made onely his eminent faith , and the form denominating him is 〈◊〉 relation to them , the foundation of which was his begetting believers exemplarily ▪ . rom. . . it is neither said abraham closed with god in covenant , nor that he accepted the seal of the covenant , nor is there in that v. any mention of the covenant , or of the seal of the covenant , but ● . ▪ the apostles having termed abraham the father of us all , v. , , , , . he sets out his faith as most eminent , and that as the reason of his fatherhood . mr. bl. to what i said , the fatness of the olive tree , diodati said truly , is the blessing and promise made to abraham and to his seed , and so the apostle expresseth , gal. . . saith . this we grant , and priviledge of ordinances contained this blessing and this promise ; we know the gospel to be the power of god to salvation . to which i reply , the blessing , gal. . . is j●stification , v. , . and the promise is of the spirit through faith , which a man may be without , though he have the outward ●riviledge of ordinances , and therefore are not contained in it : nor is the gospel the power of god to salvation without faith ; and therefore if the ingraffing be onely into the visible church ▪ and a person have onely the priviledge of ordinances , he may be without the blessing and promise made to abraham and to his seed , gal. . . which is granted by mr. bl. to be the fatness meant rom. . . and therefore the fatness is more then outward priviledges and ordinances , and i said truly it is too washy and frigid an exposition which doth so expound it , and this washes away the dust mr. bl. casts on rom. . . but he argues thus . that wherein the jews exceeded the gentiles , is the fatness whereof the gentiles partake , when they are ingraffed instead of the jews ; this none can deny , for this makes them their equals and co partners : but it is priviledges of ordinances ( how frigid and washy things soever mr. t. little better then profanely makes it ) is the priviledge wherein jews exceeded gentiles , rom. . . deut. ● . , . psal. . , . therefore this is the fatness of the olive . answ. the major is not true , if universal : and mr. bls. reason proves it . for the gentiles when ingraffed , were not made equals and co partners in many things wherein the jews before exceeded the gentiles . all those things mentioned rom . , . were prerogatives of the jewes never imparted to the gentile believers , yea that priviledge mentioned rom. . . the committing the oracles of god , the christian gentiles were never made equals and co partners with the jews in , god did never give oracles and answers to the christian gentiles , nor the tables of the covenant , and the book of the law to be kept , as hee did to the jews . but that wherein the jews and gentiles were made equals and co partners , was justification by faith , and union with christ by his spirit , as ephes. . . gal. . , , &c. and therefore this argument is rightly retorted thus on mr. bl. that wherein the gentiles ingraffed were equals and copartners with the jews is the fatness meant rom. . . but this is not the priviledges of ordinances , but justification and oneness in christ , ergo that is the fatness meant rom. . . to what i said , that the gentiles were not partakers of the outward priviledges and ordinances of abraham and the jews , they being tak● away , hee saith , if that of the apostle bee true , that the gospel was preached to abraham , gal. . . then this cannot bee false . if the rock and manna in the wilderness bee the same , as that on which w● seed , cor. . . the outward priviledges of that people may well the 〈◊〉 the same with ours . answ. . if the outward priviledges and ordinances of abraham and the jews be the same with ours , then not onely the preaching the gospel , but also circumcision , the passeover , the temple , high priest , sacrifices , &c. must be the same to us as to them . . though the gospel be preached to us which was preached to them , yet not in the same manner ; it was preached to them ●s future , to us as accomplished ; nor by the same ordinances , not by the slaying the paschal lamb , the high priests going into the most holy place with bloud once a year , &c. . no● is it true that the rock and manna in the wilderness is the same as that on which we seed , cor. . , . though it be true the same christ or spiritual meate and drinke was signified by the manna they ate , and the water out of the rocke which they dranke , which is signified by the bread and wine wee receive in the lords supper : but this doth not shew the same outward priviledges of the jewes and us , but the same spirituall benefits signified to them which are to us . he next tels me , i have taken pains for my own full refutation ; for if abraham be the root , then the natural posterity of abraham must of necessity be the natural branches which were cut off : which he endeavours to prove from rom. . , . & . , . though the conclusion be not denied , but oft asserted by me ; and then brings in paul thus disputing , pauls kinsmen after the flesh were the church visible , not invisible : but pauls kindred according to the flesh were the branches cut off ; ergo , the church visible not invisible was cut off : which conclusion doth not contradict any thing i assert , who never made the church invisible cut off , but some branches broken off from the church invisible which was formerly in that people . so that mr. bl. hitherto hath m●de no answer to my arguments , but talk●d at randome quite besides the matter urged in them . my th . argument was ▪ if the breaking off the jews were by blinding , then the ingraffing was by giving faith ; but the former is true , v. . ergo , the later . to this mr. s. saith , there is not the s●me reason , seeing ●e takes i● of giving saving faith ; their blinding was judicial , a punishment for their unbelieving rejecting of the gospel , though they had not saving faith to embrace the gospel ; the giving of faith is not on such terms ; neither is saving faith so absolutely antecedent to make a man a member of the visible church , as blinding to gods final rejection . answ. he sai●h there is not the same reason , but shews not why if the breaking off be by blinding , the ingraffing should not be by giving a saving faith . sure according to all the logick i ever learned it is as clear an a●gument as can be in this case , that where opposite effects are put , the one effect being from one cause , the other should be from the opposite cause t is true , i take the inlightning opposite to blinding to be the giving saving faith : yet do not think the blinding v. . to have bin judicial a punishment for their unbelieving , rejecting of the gospel , but as it is v. . the vety shutting up in unbelief , the antecedent to unbelief ▪ consequent on reprobation opposite to election , as v. , , , . do plainly shew , not consequent to unbelief . what he means by the giving of faith is not on such terms , i cannot readily divine ; the speech seems to me to be either non-sense , there being no terms forementioned that i can perceive to which it may be referred , or else it is impertinent to the answering the objection , and so as that which follows . for though the giving of saving faith be not on such terms as mr. s. means , or that it be not so absolutely antecedent to make a man a member of the visible church as blinding is to gods final rejection , doth it follow , that if the breaking off be by blinding , v. . the ingraffing is not by giving faith , v. ? but mr. s. adds . . blindness came but in part on israel ; it fell onely on the meer visible members , not the invisible and elect : therefore the ingraffi●g must be onely of visible members into the visible church , v. . the election hath obtained it , but the rest were blinded . answ. there is no shew of consequence that i know in it , that if blindness fall not on the elect , therefore ingraffing is not of the elect onely ; the argument is plain on the contrary even from vers . . alledged by him , the rest to wit the non-elect were blinded , therefore the ingraffed who obtained were onely the elect , and their obtaining the ingraffing was by such enlightening as wrought saving faith in them . mr. bl grants the conclusion , that the ingraffing is by giving faith , but a faith of profession into a churchstate , as he answered to the d. arg . to which i reply , . if it were giving of such a faith , yet infants would be excluded , sith they are not so ingraffed . . the ingraffing notes more then admission by an outward ordinance . . i proved from the text v. , , . that the blinding was of those who are not elect ; and therefore the inlightening by which the election obtains , or the gentiles are ingraffed is that , as dr. ames saith antisynod . animadv . in art . . c. . whereby they obtain faith and salvation from election . and i used these words , if the blinding be the effect of reprobation , and the breaking off be by blinding , then the ingraffing is by inli●htening , and that inlightening is according to election , and so is all one with giving of faith , by which i mean justifying or saving faith . at this passage mr. bl. lays about him thus , here is divinity which calls for patience in a degree above all that is christian ; which one of the contraremonstants , worthy the name of an adversary of the arminians , hath taught this doctrine ? it is that which their adversaries indeed charge upon them , but that which they unanimously do disclaim . i have heard that reprobation is the antecedent of sin , but never that it was the cause ; and that sin is a consequent of it , but never an effect . reprobation is the act of god ; and in case it be the cause of blindness , then god is the cause : so that the contraremonstran●s have got a sweet advocate to cast that upon them , that none of their adversaries ( though they have turned every stone to it ) could never prove by them . answ. . i did onely use this expression [ if the blinding be the effect of reprobation ] which causeth all this insulting , which doth not positively assert it , onely mr. bl. gathers it from the assumption which he supposeth i would have put , which is not very candid dealing . . the assumption he sets down thus , then his assumption can be no other , but that blindness is the effect of reprobation : but herein he doth grosly abuse me . for i did not say , if blindness be the effect of reprobation , but if blinding be the effect of reprobation , between which there is a great difference . for blindness is mans sin , but blinding is gods act , ascribed to god v. . when it is said , god hath given them a spirit of slumber , eys that they should not see . and job . . . he hath blinded their eys , and hardened their heart . and this act being no other then the certain permission of sin , is commonly made by protestants an effect and means executing the decree of reprobation , which is no other then blinding . potav . synt . l. . c. . reprobation is effectus est permissio lapsus . ames . med . theol. l. . c. . § . tertius reprobationis actus est intentio dirigendi media illa , quibus justitia possit in reprobas manifestari . media hujus generis maxime propria sunt permissio peccati , derelictio in peccato , rom. . thes. . , . calvin instit. l. . c. . § . . unde ( from rom. . . ) sequitur absconditum dei consilium obdu ationis esse causam . yea , § . he saith , cujus rei ( defectionis angelorum ) causa non potest alia adduci quam reprobatio , quae in arcano dei consilio abscondita est ▪ vide andr. rivet . sum . contro . tr●ct . . q. , . and piscat ▪ observ . . e rom. . , , , . erram igitur qui putant praedestinationem pendere a praevisis operibus , vel a praevisa fide , vel incredulitate . imo haec omnia praedestinationis effecta sunt : quomodo igitur possunt statui praedestinationis causae ? so that if i had taught ( as mr. bl. misreports me ) that gods reprobation causeth blindness ; yet i had authours worthy the name of adversaries to the arminians so saying : nor have i done any such high dis service to the anti-arminians as in the table at the ●nd of his book he chargeth me with . . if mr. bl. had not minded to pick a quarrel , he might have interpreted ( as indeed i meant ) the term effect not strictly or rigourously , as scheibler speaks , but in the sense in which logicians call the eclipse of the moon , the effect of the inter position of the earth between it and the sun , though it be rather a consequent , then an effect ; after which manner i explained the term cause in the same book ; review , part . sect . . p. . . let the word [ effect ] be left out , and let the word [ consequent ] be put in , my argumen hath the same force ; and therefore this was in mr. bl. a meer wrangling exception . let 's view what he saith in answer thereto . he saith , mr. t. lays all upon god , gods reprobation causes blindness , and their breaking off is by blinding ; here is no hand but gods in their destruction . and now the blasphemy of the consequence being denied , so that blindness is no effect of reprobation , breaking off being not by blinding ; what becomes of the rule of opposites here produced ? and mr. t. should not be ignorant , that election and reprobation in the work of salvation and damnation do not per omnia quadrare , otherwise as election leads to salvation without any merit of works , so reprobation should lead to destruction without any merit of sin ; which contraremonstrants unanimously deny , though mr. t. here will have them to affirm , having before quoted v. . & . of this chapter , he saith from which anti-arminians gather absolute reprobation , and then explains himself what this absolute reprobation in his sense is in the words spoken to . and then in opposition to me cites gomarus denying absolute reprobation in my sense , that god absolutely reprobates any man to destruction without subordinate means , to wit , sin ; that god doth not effect sin , or decree to effect it : and dr. prideaux , that sin follows not on reprobation as an efficient , but deficient ; is a consequent , not effect of reprobation : and mr. ball , that gods decree is not the cause of mans sin . answ. in all this there 's not a word that takes away the force of the argument ; if that word [ effect ] had been left out , as it was left out in the first framing of it , and [ consequent ] had been put in , though the argument had been as strong if that word had been used , or , as it was in the first framing , neither used . he accuseth me of blasphemy ▪ here as asserting blindness to be the effect of reprobation , that i lay all upon god , no hand but gods in mens destruction ; that i make contraremonstrants to affirm an absolute reprobation without any merit of sin ; and that i explain absolute reprobation gathered by them from rom. . , . in this sense , of all which charges there is not one true ; so that here is nothing but a fardel o● manifest calumnies . and as for what he alledgeth , that breaking off is not by blinding , because blindness was their guilt , and casting off their just sentence , and the guilt and punishment are not one , it doth no whit infringe my argument . for these may well stand together , that gods reprobation is executed by blinding , and yet blindness their guilt , and upon their unbelief or blindness god breaks them off by a just sentence ; as on the other side , election is the cause of gods enlightening , whereby the ingraffed branches believe , and through fai●h they are by gods act of grace ingraffed into the invisible church of true believers : and in this manner the rule of opposites holds evidently , although election and reprobation in the work of salvation and damnation do not per omnia quadrare , nor there be any such absolute reprobation as leads to destruction without any merit of sin . which kind of absolute rep●obation i never asserted , nor ascribed to contraremonstrants , who onely make reprobation absolute , in that the reason why god in his eternal decree or purpose did choose one to life and not another , is not the foreseen belief and obedience of one , or the foreseen unbelief or disobedience of the other , but his own will , rom. . , , , . nor do i make sin in proper or strict acception the effect of gods act ; i never said , blindness is the effect of gods reprobation , as mr. bl. misreports me , nor that god doth by any positive influx work it in man as an efficient ; but i said , blinding was the effect of reprobation in a larger sense , as effect is taken for a consequent , and that it was by blinding , which doth not at all gainsay the sayings of those learned writers alledged by mr. bl. and if gods severity in not sparing the natural branches were explicitely no more then what christ threatned , matth. . . yet my argument holds good . for the taking away of gods kingdome is not onely the taking away of the preaching of the gospel , but also the being of the church of true believers among them as heretofore ; and so the breaking off was by blinding , and the ingraffing into the invisible church of true believers by giving of faith according to election , which was to be proved . my th . arg . was , if reingraffing of the jews produceth salvation , is by turning them from iniquity , taking away their sins according to gods covenant , then it is into the invisible church by giving faith ; but the former is true v. , . ergo , the later . mr. s. saith , to which i give a fair answer , that doubtless according to those promises , when the jews shall be called in to be a visible church again , there shall bee abundance of more glory brought in with them , then ever yet the world saw ; and the new heavens , and the new earth , the coming down of the new jerusalem and all those glorious things are fitted to fall in with that time . and from these considerations many do interpret v. . litterally , and so shall all israel bee saved . but get . they shall be ingraffed in as a visible church , else abraham and the fathers would never be mentioned as roots . . they shal be ingraffed as they were broken off : now they were broken off as a visible church . . all that can be gathered is this , that the fulness of salvation , and the vertues of the promises shall more fully and universally take effect on the jews , even to the salvation of all of them ; and so the invisible & visible church be more pure and as one in the earth ; but this fulness shall be to them as a visible church and on the earth . answ. 't is a fair answer , but such as hath nothing to weaken the argument , there being neither of the premises denied , but the minor granted expresly , that the vertues of the promises shall take effect on the jews even to the salvation of all of them , which if true , then none are ingraffed but elect persons , and their ingraffing into the invisible church , now the ingraffing of the gentiles , was the same with the re-ingraffing of the jews , if then the jews re ingraffing were into the invisible church according to election , so is the ingraffing of the gentiles . what hee saith , yet they shall be ingraffed as a visible church , and this fulness shall be to them as a visible church , taking [ as ] reduplicatively cannot bee true , for then every visible church should have all in it saved , and for the reasons he brings to prove , they are answered before , the fathers are nor mentioned as roots , but abraham , who is a root not of the visible church a● such , but of the invisible of true believers , and they are ingraffed as the other were broken off from the invisible church . mr. bl. saith , this arg . well husbanded , might have made three ; to the first i say , that a churchstate in scripture phrase is salvation , job . . . seeing churchmembers are partakers of saving ordinances ; and the fruition of ordinances under gospel dispensations is a great salvation , heb. . . and so that text rom . . and so all israel shall be saved , must be understood as i told mr. t. p. . of my answer out of the last annotations , and so diodate . answ. this then is the meaning of rom. . . all israel shall bee saved , that is , they shall be in a visible churchstate partakers of saving ( outward ) ordinances under gospel dispensations . but can mr. bl. or any sober man think this to be the meaning , they shall be saved , that is , they shall be in such an estate in which they may bee damned , and in which many are damned ? or that god where hee mentions the effect of his his great covenant of the gospel , means no more but such an estate ? is this all or any part of the new covenant heb. , &c. heb. . , . to have a meer visible churchstate ? i did alwayes think the covenant of grace had promised the spirit of christ , th●t the ministery thereof was of the spirit , cor . , . of righteousness , v. . not of a meer visible churchstate . and sure if we look to the place whence these words are quoted ( as mr. ●l saith ) isai. . . jerem. . . there is an express promise of the spirits continuance upon them , which is sure much beyond a visible churchstate . as for what he brings out of scripture , it is shamefully wrested . for joh. . . a meer visible church-state is not termed salvation , but whether by it bee meant by a metonymy , the doctrine of salvation ▪ or the authour of salvation christ himself , it is certainly another thing then a meer visible churchstate , yea in that sense the speech were absurd to term a meer visible church-state salvation , and false to say tha● the visible churchstate was of the jewes . and for the other text ●eb . . it doth not term the fruition of outward ordinances under gospel d●spensations great salvation , but the great benefit purchased by christ termed eternal salvation , heb. . . declared and offered in the gospel . diodati annot . on heb. . ● . so great ] namely everlasting redemption , revealed and communicated by the gospel , and impl●citely opposed by the apostle to the temporal deliverance out of egypt , for the contemning of which the israelites were punished in the wilderness . and though the new annot. and diodati paraphrase rom. . . by [ put into the way of salvation ] yet they do not restrain this to a meer visible churchstate ; yea both add , that by [ all israel ] may be understood the israel of god , gal. . . of jews and gentiles , which is the invisible church . and di●son thus parap●raseth the words , and so all israel , that is , the multitude of jews comprehending the body of the people dispersed shall be converted . and piscator in his scholie , the fulness of israel shall be saved , to wit being effectually called by the preaching of the gospel , and justified by faith in christ. but what is said of all israel , is not to be extended to each , but to be understood of the greatest part , from which the denomination is wont to be made . mr. bl adds , and such men brought into a churchstate are turned from iniquity partially , from their former way of iniquity , their contradicting and blasp●eming ; having escaped the pollution of the world , pet. . . of the world ●hat remains out of the church of god. answ. ▪ were this the meaning , yet infants should be excluded , who are not thus turned . . that such a partial turning cannot be meant , is manifest , in that the term is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ungodlinesses , that is , all sorts of ungodliness from jacob , that is , as piscator in his scholie , by pardoning or remitting and justifying by faith , and this to be done by the redeemer which shall come out of sion who so turns from iniquity as to bless them whom he turns , acts. . . which doth not agree to mr. bls. partial turning . more rightly di●son thus paraphraseth the words . he foretelleth that so it should be , that the true redeemer should free his nation from the guilt and servitude of sin , the iniquities of that people being pardoned ; and that it should be , that he would receive them into the covenant of grace to the full abolishing of sin . but , saith mr. bl. their sin is pardoned quoad hoc : and when moses , prayed for the pardon of the sin of israel , exod. . and god promiseth it , chron. . . it is so to be understood of a national pardon . answ. a partial pardon quoad hoc of some particular sin , and releasing onely of some particular evil , cannot be meant rom. . , . sith it is a taking away of their sins , by the agency of the redeemer that comes out of sion , and according to gods covenant to them ; which . the same with that , jer. . heb. . . & . , . in which eternal redemp●ion and inheritance are assured , heb. . ▪ . i grant it shal be a nationa● pardon , understanding by nation the greatest or chiefest part of the nation , but different from the pardon obtained by moses , exod. . or prom●sed , chron. . . to what i said in answer to mr. geree , that i thought at the jews restauration there shall be some of them formalists and hypocrites , but none of the re-ingraffed , mr. bl. replies , the re-ingraffing here is in their stead that fell away by multitudes , and therefore were hypocri●es and formalists , and the ingraffed such as might fall , which is not spiritual israel , but carnal . but the text doth not say , the jews shall be re-ingraffed in their shead that sell away by multitudes ▪ but onely that the gentiles be graffed into the olive in stead of the jews broken off , v. . and the jews shall be re-ingraffed when the fulness of the gentiles shall come in , and both be ingraffed together , not the one broken off to make room for the other , as in the calling of the gentiles , v. . yet were it so as mr. bl. saith , how doth it follow , the re-ingraffing here is in their stead that fell away by multitudes , ergo the re-ingraffed were some of them formalists and hypocrites ? i conceive it follows rather on the contrary , those that fell away were hypocrites , therefore they that are ingraffed in their stead are living branches , or sincere believers . as for what he said before about the falling away of the ingraffed , is answered before . but mr. bl. yet adds , there is a national pardon , and a personal : pardon i● o●t applied to a national return , as chron. . . & jerem. . , . there it is the removal of drought , locusts , pestilence ; here their judgement was the vail of blindness , not assenting to the gospel light ; and they shall be saved from this blindness , as the text expressly hath it , v. , . answ. this blindness is no way removed but by giving of faith , as is proved before ; and therefore this proves for me , the ingraffing to be giving faith according to election , and all the ingraffed to be elect . yet once more saith mr. bl. the words quoted out of v. , . are partly from isa. . . and partly from jerem. . . as i conceive , which in the prophets are directly spoken of a national return , and national pardon , as mr. b. of one of them hath well observed : but in new testament scriptures variously applied , as all know that text of habakkuk is , ch . . . that of jeremy is applied personally : but here , as the context is clear , it , must bee applied nationally to israel according to the flesh . the vail shall be taken from them on whom it lies ; it lies on israel according to the flesh : what mystery had the apostle revealed in case he had onely shewed that all elect b●lievers should be saved ? answ. though that were no mystery , yet it was a mystery , that god shou●d contrive it so that israel gods people formerly should now be blind , and the gentiles see , and when their fulness is come in , then all israel should be saved , who were then broken off . and this salvation is to be national , and yet spiritual , there being a national effectual conversion to god , although all of the nation be not converted , as well as there is a national return from captivity , and yet not all return . the words being quoted from ●sai . . . jer. . . there being no reason to the contrary they shoul● be applied personally here , as ●hey are heb. . . & . ● , . i shall close up the vindication of this argument with the words of dr. owen of perseverance ch. . § . . the force then of this promise , isa. . ● . and the influence it hath into the establishment of the truth we have in hand , the perpetual abiding of the spirit with the saints , will not be evaded and turned aside , by affirming , that it is made to the whole people of israel . for bes●des , that the spirit of the lord could not bee said to bee in the ungodly rejected part of them , nor his word in their mouth , there is not the least in text and context , to intimate such an extent of this promise as to the object of it , and 't is very weakly attempted to bee proved from pauls accommodation , and interpretation of the v ▪ fore going in rom. . . for it is most evident , and indisputable to any one , who shall but once cast an eye upon that place , that the apostle accommodates and applies these words to none , but onely those who shall be saved , being turned away from ungodliness to christ , which are onely the seed before described . and those hee cals all israel ; either in the spiritual sense of the word , as taken for the chosen israel of god , or else indefini●ely for that nation , upon the account of those plentiful fruits , which the gospel shall finde amongst them , when they shall fear the lord and his goodness in the latter dayes . my seventh argument was , if the re-ingraffing bee by vertue of gods election and love , his gifts of calling ▪ then it is into the invisible church , by election and giving of faith ; but the former is true v. , ● ergo , the latter . mr. s. answers , . it 's said , that as touching election the jews are beloved for their fathers sake ; hence it follows , god hath a love of election to believers and their natural seed ; for so the jews were the natural seed of abraham . answ. it followes not of believing gentiles and their natural seed , for this is spoken peculiarly of the jews . nor doth it follow of all the natural seed of abraham , the contrary is determined rom. . ; , . nor of any at all times , as in the time of their great apostasie . much less doth it hence follow , as it hath been pleaded for paedobaptism , that because god loved the jews for the fathers sake , therefore wee are to take in the parcels , all the infants of inchurched believers , to bee elect and in the covenant of grace , and thereupon to baptise them , this to my apprehension hath not a shadow of consequence . but saith mr. s. . it 's granted that the calling of the jews shall be according to gods election and first love ; and that gods election shall more fully take hold of the jews at their recalling , then of any nation : but yet still the argument is of no force to prove that their re-ingraffing and so ours is onely or firstly into the invisible church ; for they are elected as well to be a visible church , as to be partakers of inward graces ; and their re-ingraffing must be specially and firstly into the visible church from which they were broken off , or else there will be no correspondence between their rejection and re-ingraffing . answ. yet the arg . is of force to prove it is into the invisible church , so as none are re-ingraffed but the elect and partakers of inward graces , though it were granted that their re-ingraffing be specially and firstly into the visible church : yea , mr. ss reason is against himself , for if their re-ingraffing be not firstly and specially into the invisible church by faith , there wil be no correspondence between their re-ingraffing and rejection , which was firstly and specially from the invisible church by unbelief . mr. bl. answers thus . his election , love , and gifts of calling , did at the first put them into a visible churchstate and condition , deut. . , . and the same love , election , and gifts of calling , now they are broken off , doth re-ingraff them ; if this argument hold , it was an invisible church that was brought out of the land of aegypt . answ. according to mr. bl. the apostle should mean that the election and love , rom. . . are meant of such election and love as may be to them that perish , and such a calling and gifts as may be lost , for such the election into a meer visible churchstate and condition , and calling , and love , and gifts are , which mr. bl. p. . will have to be the meaning of the apostle here . but this is not meant here , . because that election , love , gifts and calling are here meant , as are from the covenant of the redeemer , v , . and whereby all israel shall be saved ; this is manifest from the connexion , the words v. , . being a confirmation of the proposition all israel shall be saved , v. . from the covenant to turn away impieties from jacob , and to take away their sins , for this reason , because they are beloved according to the election and calling of god ▪ which are unchangeable . but such salvation , election , love , gifts and calling never happen to them that perish , the covenant , turning away from impieties , and taking away sins , belong onely to them who are eternally saved ; therefore they are not an election , love , gifts , and calling which put into a meer visible churchstate and condition . . such gifts and calling of god are not here meant which are revocable , or of which god repents ; for to be without repentance is to be without revocation , or change : but the gifts and calling which are into a mee● visible churchstate , are revocable and with repentance , as both the scripture and experience shews , therefore they are not here meant . . that calling and election are meant here which are ascribed to god in the passages where there is speech of gods election and calling of persons before in the th . th . and th . chapters ; for it is manifest ▪ that the dispute about election and calling of the jews and gentiles , ch . , , . arose from the words of the apostle , rom. . , , &c. but the election and calling in all the passages signifies such an election and calling as is to eternal life and righteousness , as is manifest from rom. . , , . rom. . , , , , . rom. . , . therefore not an election or calling into a meer visible churchstate . . that calling and election is meant here , which is usually , if not always , meant by the apostles in their writings . for it 's likely paul would speak here in the sense in which the word is commonly used , there being no cogent reason to the contrary . but the words election and calling in the apostles writings are taken usually , it not always , for election and calling to righteousness and eternal life , as may appear by these places , cor. . , , , , , , . & . , , . ephes. . , . & . , . gal. . , . & . , . phil. . . col. . , . thes. . & . . & . . thes. . . & . , . tim. . . & . . tim. . . & . . tit. . . heb. . . & . . james . . pet. . , . & . & . . pet. . , . jude●● ●● revel . . . therefore the meaning is in like manner , rom. . , . that which mr. bl. alledgeth from deut. . , . doth not weaken this . for though it prove that which is not denied , that there is an election of a people to a visible churchstate ; yet it proves not such an election and love to be meant rom. . . nor by my argument doth it with any colour of reason follow , that the church brought out of aegypt was the invisible church , because they are said to be chosen , deut. . , . any more then because judas is said to be chosen by christ , john . . therefore election , rom. . . is into a meer visible churchstate or apostleship . but mr. bl. after his calumny of my dis service to the anti arminians ▪ wiped away before , tels us that the apostle there delivers an universal proposition , and ap●lies it to such election , love , and gifts that belongs to bodies or nations ▪ yet it is a truth that equally holds , when it is applied to election to salvation , and with just warranty is applied by divines to that purpose . answ. it is not true that the apostle delivers , rom. . . an universal proposition concerning any election , love , calling ▪ gifts , for then it would be false , there be many gifts and callings of god which are not without repentance in the apostles sense ; but a proposition of the gifts and calling which are to salvation , according to that love and election which are to everlasting salvation according to the covenant mentioned v. . . and therefore those divines who understand it of election , love , gifts and calling to a meer visible churchstate and condition , have no warranty to apply it to prove that election and perseverance which the text , if they speak true , speaks not of ; and the argmuent from thence for that purpose is utterly enervated by that interpretation , sith the assumption is by it made confessedly false , if the argument be thus framed , that decree is immutable , and that gift and calling of god do certainly continue which the apostle saith are without repentance . but the apostle saith the decree of election to eternal life , and the gift of taking away sins ▪ and the calling which is inward are without repentance . ergo. as for pareus his forming it as from the less to the greater , it is , as for the most part such arguments are , liable to many exceptions ; and in this matter hath no strength ; for then it would follow , that if gods gift and calling to visible churchstate is without repentance , calling to the office of a presbyter , which is more , is without repentance . i deny not but commentators do speak some of them as mr. bl. alledgeth , and some doubtfully of which election and calling to understand it , and some speak disjunctively as if it were meant of either ; and some one while means it of the one , and another while of the other . but it is not worth while to search into or set down their words . it is sufficient that i have demonstrated that i● must be meant of such election , love , gifts and cal●ing as are to saving holiness , and righteousness , and eternal life . yet those which i alledged as writing against the arminians , and understanding it of the decree of election un●o life and perseverance in saving grace , mr. bl. denies not that i have ●ightly cited them , onely he will not have ames so peremptory as i am , by reason of some words of his , from which mr. bl. doth most falsely infer thus , [ so that it appears according to him that they spake truth in the denial of this to be meant of the unchangeable decree of eternal election , ] which they who read ames his words in his coronis , art . . cap. . may easily discern . i add to tho●e i cited in the first part of this review , sect . . pag. ● . dr. owen , of perseverance , c. . § . . &c. dr. kendal , of redemption , ch . . pag. ● , &c. the reason why some wil not have it meant of election and effectual calli●g to salvation is their mistake , that particular persons may not be said to fall away from such ele●●ion and cal●ing . for though it be true , that the particular persons never fall away from their personal election and calling , yet they may fall away from that election and calling to eternal life which they in their ancestor● had ; which sense i have shewed to be agreeable to the apostles meaning , in the first part of this review , sect . . and dr. twiss in his vind. grat. l. . err . . sect . . acknowledgeth that when the apostle saith , rom. . . they shall be graffed in , he means it not of those individuals in their persons , but their posterity . but mr. bl. argues thus . the fathers for whose sake they are beloved are the ancient fathers from whom after the flesh they did proceed , specially abraham , isaac , and jacob , the word is for the fathers : then election must needs be understood of an external grace of the covenant , whereby god chose this nation to himself , according to that of moses , deut. . . unless we are elect in abraham to salvation and not in christ. and abraham , isaac , and jacob are our mediators of reconciliation : and when the apostle saith , we are ●ccepted in the beloved , ephes. . . it is to be understood of acceptation in abraham : and we are to conclude our prayers , not in and through christ but abraham , isaac , and jacob ; we are not for their sakes beloved to salvation . answ. . that the election , deut. . . must be understood of an external grace of the covenant , needs bettr proof then mr. bl. brings . for god may be said to choose a nation , and yet not choose every one of the nation , it being usual , as mr cobbet observes , just. vindic . part . ch . . that things said of a people collectively are meant of the greater or better part distributively . . the absurdities will press mr. bl. as well as me . for if , as mr. bl. saith , the election and love be to a meer visible churchstate and condition , we may say by the same reason which he useth , we are elected in abraham to churchstate , and not in christ ; he is our mediator of reconciliation ; we are accepted in abraham the beloved ; we are to conclude our prayers not in and through christ , but abraham , isaac , and jacob , which are absurd : we are not beloved for their sakes in the sense in which we are beloved in christ , to visible churchstate , any more then to salvation . . though we are not for their sakes or for them beloved to salvation , yet the jews are . . we are elect in christ as the first-born among many brethren , rom. . . as the head of many members , as the mediator , the second adam , by whom the life we are elected to is conveyed , in which sense we are said to be accepted or favoured , he is the mediator of reconciliation by his bloud , we conclude our prayers in and through him as the high priest of our profession : but they that say , the jews are beloved to salvation for the fathers sakes , or for abraham , isaac , and jacob , need not , nor do mean it in these senses ; but thus , they are beloved to salvation by reason of gods covenant to them , exod. . . levit. . . their fidelity to him , nehem. . . so that abraham was called the friend of god , james . . which are no whit derogatory to the prerogative of christ , in whom alone we are elected , reconciled , favoured , heard , as the onely begotten son of god , and the alone mediator between god and man. what mr. bl. desires me to consider that moses interceded for the whole body of israel , exod. . . and that god promiseth to remember the whole nation under suffering , levit. . . is nothing for mr. bls. purpose . for if it were granted , that moses interceded for the whole nation , yet it follows not , that gods promise was to every individual of that nation , levit. . . and if it were , yet it follows not that it must be so rom. . , , , . nor if it were granted ( though the contrary is to me more probable ) doth it follow , that the election , love , gifts , calling , cannot be to salvation , but must be into a meer visible churchstate and condition , or , as mr. bl. terms it , external grace of the covenant , sith there is no absurdity , that i know of to conceive , that at the calling of the jews every individual jew shall be a true believer , and saved . nor doth my opinion impute any errour to moses or paul , but mr. bl. doth in this as in other things , egregiously triffle as one that writes without heed of what he saith . my th . argument is this . if the ingraffing both of jews and gentiles be the fruit of gods mercy , the breaking off by shutting up in unbelief , then the ingraffing is into the invisible church by election and giving faith : but the former is true , vers . , , . ergo , the later . mr. s. rather flights then answers this argument . for he takes no notice of that part of the medium , [ the breaking off by shutting up in unbelief , ] which shews what mercy it was by which they were ingraffed , to wit , converting and reconciling mercy proper to the elect , as the very opposition of the terms shews . v. . they were before shut up in unbelief by severity , now by mercy they are brought to faith and favour , but tels me , this proposition is unsound on which the argument is built , what ever is a fruit of gods mercy is from election and ingraffing into the invisible church , because that health , &c. are fruits of gods mercy . but ●t is not true , the proposition on which the argument is built is as hee ●●ith , but thus ; that mercy which doth take away the shutting up in unbelief , is converting reconciling mercy from election , whose effect is the ingraffing into the visible church by giving saving faith , ergo , if the ingraffing , &c. and this mr. s. hath not disproved , nor do i think can be disproved . mr. bl. saith , he hath answered this before , and onely desires mee to give him a comment on hos , . , . but first if he have answered this before , then his answer is also refelled , and it is shewed that the mercy here is more then the priviledge of a visible churchstate . . mr. bls. desire i shall not re●use to yeild to , when i finde any argument drawn by him from hos. . , . to make void my argument from rom. . , , . but to my additional confirmation of my arguments in my apology p. . that the whole scope and series of the chapter and the frequent mention from v. . to . of termes importing election , reprobation and their consequents , with the apostles exclamation v. . do fully shew the ingraffing to be into the invisible church , by election and giving faith ; mr. bl. replies thus . mr. t. might do well to tell us what ingraffing is by election : i take that to be an immanent act in god , which is terminated in himself , and not on the creature ; such expressions do not sute with mr. t. his high pretendings to scholastical learning . answ. where and when i made high pretendings to scholastical learning , if mr. bl. had informed mee it might have done mee good to humble mee for such folly , but this dealing of mr. bl. by ●uips to mis-represent me as an arrogant man , hath no better appearance then a shew of a malevolent minde in him towards mee . i hope i have so much scholastical learning as to vindicate my own writings , from his and others cavils , and sure i am that what ●ver my learning bee , master bl. hath shewed more of a surcostical bitter spirit in his writings against mee , then of scholastical learning , in which how much hee is defective , i had rather mr. b and such birds as are of the same feather should tell him then my self . as for this exception it 's so frivolous , as that it deserves not a reply . i did not say the ingraffing is by election alone but by election and giving faith , which sometimes i do express sutably to ephes. . . thus [ by giving faith according to election ] and even in the first part of this review , pag. . where i repeat this very thing , and do often tell what the ingraffing is which is by election , to wit effectual calling , converting , reconciling , giving saving faith , so that mr. bl. were hee not disposed to quarrel , might have omitted this exception . as for that hee takes election to bee an immanent act in god , so do i , and conceive that the will or counsel of god acts . . is an immanent act in god , and yet it is said that david having served his generation by the will or counsel of god fell asleep , and though election as the will of god be not in another subject then himself , yet it is terminated on the creature as the object , it being one of those acts of god that are ad extra though not extra , which mee thinks mr. bl. should understand , if age and disuse have not worn out his logick and theologick notions . mr. blake saith of me , to have made up his argument he should have taken in by way of assumption ; the jews in their fall from church-fellowship , cannot bee said to be rejected , hardened , given to a spirit of slumber , or that their eyes are darkened , or that they have stumbled ; and that for their call into church-fellowship , neither election or grace shall have any hand in it : this must bee his reasoning if there bee any shew of reason in his heap of words , and then all men will admire mr. ● . while he is in his admiration of mr. m. i shall say no more but that hee is very weak both in divinity and logick , that cannot presently upon the first ●ight discover the weakness , and return a satisfying answer to this flourish of words . answ. the words were as few as the matter would bear , without any flourish at all . the assumption would not have been as mr. bl. makes it , but thus , that the jewes by bare fall from visible church fellowship , cannot bee said to be rejected , hardened , given to a spirit of slumber , or that their eys are darkned , or that they have stumbled . ( for a person may fall from visible churchfellowship onely by excommunication , putting out of the synagogue , and yet bee neither rejected by god , nor hardened , nor given to a spirit of slumber , or his eys darkened , or he stumble , as in the case of the man born blinde , joh. . , . ) and that the election and grace mentioned rom. . , . are meant there or in any part of the apostles discourse of these thing● , rom. , , . ch . of election into meer visible churchfellowship , or grace that extends to no more then outward priviledges of churchstate is not likely . and if any do take this reasoning to bee weak , i must needs say that i or hee are stark blinde in divinity and logick , and omitting my admiration of mr. m. who i think after his edition of his defence gave over the dispute , i admire not that mr. bl. ( who●e superficialness i perceive plainly enough ) but that any man that accurately studies rom. . should interpret the ingraffing there meant of the bringing of persons into a meer visible churchstate by a dogmatical faith , or outward ordinance without giving saving faith according to gods election . mr. bl. proceeding to vindicate mr g. recites the words of the first part of this review pag. . and then saith , it is well that mr. t. yeilds so much , and being n●w imbarqued in this business , if hee did not not plus consulere ●amae quam conscientiae , hee would yeild more , and freely confess that the mercy here is no other , nor no more then that which is general , and that the faith here is historical and not saving ; i am sure there is enough to convince but it is god alone that must perswade . answ. if mr bl. had never known me , this censure might have been the more excusable , but his many criminations and censures , and misreports of me in his preface to his book of the covenant and throughout his book do fully assure me he hath an evill eye towards me , and that he is indisposed to put any fair construction on what i do or write . of which malignity in him i know no reason , but my opposing his da●ling of infant perfusion , for sprinkling it seems he ownes not , and baptism he useth not . as for what hee here saith o● me , if this reply of mine acquit me not , i have no remedy but to appeal to my witness in heaven . i do again protest , that i see no reason to convince me of that mr. bl. here saith , but abundant reason to the contrary , if mr. bl. or any other shall detect my errour , i am willing to be convinced and perswaded ; but such fli●ting , quipping answers as mr. bl. makes , i shall hereafter pass by as the froth and some of an angry satyrist , not the dispute of a scholastique . he saith of me , his reason to assert it to bee meant of saving faith , is worthy of consideration , being opposed to their former hardning , &c. and is there not a hardning that reaches so high to hold men from so much as faith historical 〈◊〉 dogmatical , as well as there is an hardning to hold men from that which is saving ? answ. there is , but no hardning meant rom. . or . which doth not deprive of saving faith together with historical , and consequently the shewing mercy opposite must bee not a giving an historical fai●h onely , but also a saving faith . mr. bl. adds , the va●l is ( as the apostle tels us ) on the heart of the jews to this day , when moses is read cor. . . and does not this vail so far blind their eyes that they see not so much as with faith historical ? that which the jews to this time want , is that from which they fell , let mr. t. take that into consideration ; but to this day they want even a faith historical , had they kept faith in christ so far as an assent in their whole nation , so that they had past in name and dignity for christians , and had yet wanted among them that faith that was saving , then there had been colour for what mr. t. saith . but their being as it is , and as it is here affirmed , i cannot but wonder at the vail before mr. t. his eyes , that what is thus clear , should be thus held from him . answ. i shall forbear wondering hereafter , forasmuch as i discern the reason of mr. bls. wrangling , prejudice out of his affection to his brat termed birth-priviledge , makes him imagine a vail over mine eyes , which is indeed over his own . what colour or proof rather is for my saying is shewed before . my argument is no whit infringed though the state of the jews were such as that they wanted both historical and saving faith , hardning being opposed to giving saving faith , and no person said to be hardned but he that wants saving faith , and he that wants being hardned though hee should have historical , so that if hardning be a privation of both , yet it hath its denomination onely from the privation of saving faith . and for mr bls. reason hee would have me consider , first the conclusion of it is not to the present point . for if the jewes might not bee said to fall from a saving faith , yet their unbelief mentioned rom. . . might bee and was a privation not onely of historical faith but also a saving ( else mr. bl. must say they had a saving faith though not historical , which is a palpable absurdity , for then a person may have a saving faith and not an historical , and the unbelieving jewes had a saving faith ) and consequently the shewing mercy must bee not onely a conferring an historical faith , but also a saving . . the ma●or is not true universally taken . all that which the jews to this time want is that from which they fell ; for they want their temple , sac●ifi●es , priesthood , &c. and yet they fell not from them . third the argument is thus retorted , that which the jewes to this time want , is that from which they fell , let mr. bl. take that into considera●ion . but to this day they want even a saving faith , ergo , they fell from a saving faith . such ill hap hath mr. bls. arguing : yet as one whose fingers did itch to bee dealing with mee hee scribbles further . whereas i alledged ephes. . . to prove the unbelief of the gentiles in times past mentioned rom . . was not onely a privation of historical , but also of saving faith , mr. bl. puts these frivolous questions to mee , were they not without a dogmatical ●aith ? were they not aliens and strangers so much as from the commonwealth of israel ? to which i answer , they were ; and ask him , whether they were not without a saving faith ? and if so the shewing mercy is opposed to the no● giving a saving faith , and mr. bls. position most absurd , that the faith here ( to wit rom . where alone the word faith is used in that chapter ) is historical and not saving . mr. bl. adds , and though in some sense every regenerate professing christian is without christ , without god , without hope , respective to saving fruition , and acceptable communion with him , yet that text is manifestly abused when it is applied to any of christian profession . the whole must be carried on in a due application of it , gentiles in the flesh , aliens from the common-wealth of israel . answ. though i finde no emendation of it in mr. bls. table of errata , yet i do conceive [ regenerate ] is printed for [ unregenerate ] otherwise the speech were more grosly false then i shall imagine mr. bl. would thus deliver . and it beeing so , i conceive no abuse of it to have applied it to meer visible professors of christianity among the gentiles , if the words were added to it which mr. bl. would have joyned . for they were gentiles in the flesh , aliens from the commonwealth of israel , without christ , without god , without hope . nevertheless i know not what this makes to infringe my inference from ephes. . . to prove the unbelief rom. . . to have been a privation of saving faith . master bl. denies not this sense of the words , that the ephesians in their infidelity were without christ , without god , without hope , respective to saving fruition and acceptable communion with him , and sure they that were thus were without saving faith , except mr. bl. imagine they had a saving faith , who had not so much as an historical : nor is it denied the same state to bee described rom. . . which is described ephes. . . and therefore my inference stands notwithstanding this passage of mr. bl. he further saith , and for his observation , that it occasioned the apostles exclamation , o altitudo ! o the depth , &c. v. . sure the goodness of god bringing the gentiles who were dogs , matth. . . unto the glory of children , and the severity of god in casting out the children of the kingdome , matth. . . might well occasion this exclamation in the apostle , as he had called to behold the goodness and severity of god , on them which fell severity , but towards the gentiles goodness he might well cry out upon the greatest turne of providence that ever the world saw ( which in ages past had beene hid , and the angels desired to looke into ) o the depth ! &c. answ. true : but was this goodness or severity in respect of a meer visible churchstate ? or was it not also in respect of their state in the invisible church ? sure the thing had not been so admirable , if it had not been in respect of the later as well as the former ; and writers and preachers usually apply it to silence the objection against absolute election and reprobation concerning their everlasting state , as if it imported unmercifulness and injustice incompetent to god ; and it seems so like the passage , rom. . , , , , , . that me thinks if mr. bl. did compare them , he should judge both places meant of the same thing : and which i● an irrefragable argument , it is clear rom. . . hath reference to what he said before , v. , . which is manifestly meant of their estate of salvation and reprobation , and therefore must be so meant v. . what mr. bl. adds concerning my speech about mr. g. and the assembly , is through mistake , as if i had censured mr. g. as like plautus his miles gloriosus in his disposition ; whereas i censured him onely in respect of those words there used , which was right however in other things he were without gall , from which nevertheless that in his writings against me he was not altogether free , is shewed in my apology , sect . . and for mr. bls. conceit , that where one degree of boasting is ascribed to mr. g. one hundred will be ascribed to me by them that read our writings ▪ it is not unlikely , if they see through mr. bls. spectacles , which make things seem black that are white , and make small ●illocks seem hills : but i find cause to make it part of my letany , from the unrighteous and hard censures of mr. bl. mr. b. and others of my antagonists , good lord deliver me . what i said of the assembly shewed no more boldness then was meer , it is too apparent by the dealing with mr. coleman , my selfe , and others , that the stream of voices in the assembly went to establish all after the scottish mode , without a through examination of what was alledged to the contrary , except what was objected were backed by a very considerable party in parliament , or army , or city of london . it is no more boldness in me to assault such an assembly , then it was in a particular dissenting brother . my weapons i ass●ult them with ▪ are such as the holy scriptures yeeld , and my interpretations such as my adversaries themselves give , and my arguments and answers are the very same which they use in other disputes against prelates and arminians ; and with th●se weapons which m. bl. disdainfully like a goliath , terms reeds or bulrushes , i am no more afraid to assault the assembly of divine at westminster , then to assault bakewel , hussey , and such like scriblers . to my th argument from parallel places , mr. bl. tels me , mr. hudson , pag. . hath not onely affirmed , but proved , that the text cor. . . is meant of the church as visible . answ. i have viewed the place , and find mr. hudson speaking thus in answer to the objection : but this is meant of the invisible company of believers he saith , it is true , but it is spoken of them as visible . so that mr. hudson affirms the same with me , that cor. . . must be understood of the invisible church , yet in respect of that which is there said of them , something is spoken of them as visible . to my allegation of ephes. . . that the gentiles were made fellow-heirs of the same body , and co-partakers of the promise of god in the gospel ; not by an outward ordinance , but by giving of faith according to election : ergo , the ingraffing rom. . . parallel to it , is not by an outward ordinance , b●t by giving faith according to election : mr. bl. thus in his flirting fashion answers , oh that mr. t. spake truth ; then ( as the apostle saith of israel at their restauration , all israel shall be saved , rom. . . ) all england in statu quo , should be saved in the sense that mr. t. would understand salvation , whether we be by descent brittains , saxons , or normans , we are gentiles , and consequently by his divinity partakers of the gospel by faith according to election . answ. not so , unless by gentiles were meant every gentile , which a fre●h man in the university would correct mr. bl. in , who knows an indefinite proposition not to be equipollent to an universal incontingent matter . it is said , acts . . th●n hath god given to the gentiles repentance unto life ; yet it follows nor , he hath done so to every gentile . mr. bl. adds . sure i am this text is meant of gospel glory in ordinance dispensed by the apostles ministery . answ. sure i am , that to be fellow heirs , and of the same body , and partakers together of his promise in christ by the gospel , imports more then a meer visible churchstate , even an estate of righteousness , union with christ , and inheritance of eternal life : and i doubt not but many of his auditors would correct mr. bl. if he taught otherwise at any lecture of christians of ordinary understanding . yet he he saith further , and as to the jews appertained the glory and the promises , rom. . , . so now the glory and promises belong to the gentiles : and as many jews as fell not off , still enjoy this glory with the gentiles , and so both make one new man , ephes . . . the visible state of the jews was a distinct body from the gentiles : now upon this glorious call they are one new man , or new body . answ. the glory and promises meant rom. , . did never belong to the gentile believers in the christian church , nor do the believing jews still enjoy that glory with the gentiles , though both make one new man , yet not the meer visible church is that one man , or body , but the church invisible reconciled to god by christs death , as the text it self shews , ephes. . , , , , . mr. bl ▪ tels me , the ingraffing is not by giving faith of election , nor is it an act of admission into the visible church by an outward ordinance ; but it is by gods giving of faith in and by gospel ordinances , to give assent to gospel mysteries , and make profession of them . answ. i have proved before it is more then the giving of an historical faith , however this concession in the close serves my purpose . for if this be the ingraffing , then they onely that thus do assent and make profession , are ingraffed : but infants do not thus assent and make profession ; ergo , they are not ingraffed , and consequently the text rom. . , . alledged by the assembly , mr. g. mr. m. &c. for admission of infants with parents as with the jews , is brought obtorto collo plainly against the meaning of it . what mr. bl. adds , that gal. . , , , . there is an ingraffing into christ mentioned , but none into the church , is as vain as the rest , there being no ingraffing into christ by faith , but it is also into the church invisible , who is christ mystical , cor. . the scriptures i have produced are proved to be meant of the church invisible , because the things said in those scriptures are such as agree to none other ; and they appear to be parallel by the indentity of the matter , all expressing the state of gentile believers upon their effectual cal●ing . it is mr. bls. false charge , that the reader will hereafter find me reasoning with my full strength against the force of all arguments a pari : this calumny is re●elled in the d . part of this review , sect . . as for my th . argument , whether the faith in the testimonies cited be meant of justifying , and the election to eternal life , needs no other decision then the very words , which i took from marlorat without searching into the authors own books because i had them not of my own , and i saw it needless to look further . if the words be ambiguous , the authors intended to deceive ; if elsewhere they speak against me , they gainsay themselves : neither of which mr. bl. should charge them with , if he regarded their credit . in mr. bls. arguments , sect . . the first is answered before in vindicating my th . argument . i deny the major of the d . which is answered in the d . part of this review , sect . . pag. , . in the d. the minor is false , that the priviledge of ingraffing is the priviledge of every member of the visible church : in that which is added to prove it to be the priviledge of ordinances , if the major be universal , it is false ; besides , the argument may be retorted . in the th . i deny the major , and have often answered the inference [ that then i must maintain falling away from true faith ] that by my exposition the falling away of particular persons from the true justifying faith they had in their own persons , is not maintained ; but the falling away of the people of one age from that which their predecessors in a former age had . in the th . if the minor be meant of a casting onely out of a visible churchstate , it is denied ; nor is it proved , matth . for the kingdome of god not onely notes the outward churchstate , but also the rule of christ in their hearts , and protection of them by his spirit . in the th . the conclusion is granted . that which mr. bl. saith , that the body of believing jews and christian gentiles , called by the apostle one new man , ephes. . . are capable of no other ingraffing then that which is visible , and the body of them entitled new , as the jews before , onely to priviledges of ordinances , is not true . nor is it true , that in my speech recited by him pag. . is taken for granted , . that the whole visible body of christian nations are truly ingraffed into the church invisible , i● by whole body be meant all the parts , o● every part . . nor is it true , that it is taken for granted by me , that in after ages the same body , though not the same persons , may be cast off , and yet no particular person rejected , without this explication , that no particular person who was an elect person or true believer , is rejected . but against this d . imagined grant of mine , mr. bl. thus argues . the d . must be examined ; this church thus cut off , either continues in the invisible body as before , or else is degenerate by the death of those numerical persons , that made up a body invisible , and succession of others that are no more then v●sible members . if it continue in the invisible body till the time of breaking off , then mr. t. is not holpen with his distinction of a consistent and a fluent being , nor with hi● similitude of euphrates ; for so a church invisible is still broken off and rejected , and falling away is maintained . if it be degenerate , then . they fall off themselves , and are not broken off by god ; their own sin th●n should be noted , nor gods act as their punishment : but their breaking off , or rejection is the act of god laying waste his vineyard , isa . taking away his kingdome , matth. . removing the candlestick , ephes. . . ( it should be revel . . . ) all noting the act of god punishing upon the peoples act of sinning , which is of the church , not invisible , but visible . . for the similitude of cyrus his turning of euphrates , that he turned the same river that god created , this will not serve mr. t. his purpose ; for euphrates continues a river of the same kind and nature as it was at the first creation , and the church in his expression is changed from the invisible body of christ , to a visible company of bare professors . the church had changed her own channel . . mr. t. indeed grants the question , for he confesses that the church is visible that god breaks off ; and whatsoever it had been , now it hath no more then a visible interest ; so that a visible church falls off , and gentiles are ingraffed into that which is visible . sect. . m bl. adds these words that wild assertion pag. . that the branches were broken off from election and true faith , and the invisible church in which they were , with this limitation ; understanding it not of the same singular persons , but the same people or nation , is a thread that runs through almost the whole , and enough i suppose is spoken to it : and when he shall shew me an invisible nation ( of which he speaks ) from which there may be a breach ; i will either yeeld ●p all , or he shall hear more . till then i shall look on his words as such a — unworthy the pen of such a writer ; an invisible nation it must be , a visible nation cannot be cut off from the church invisible . answ. speak out man , let me know the worst you can say , i expect no favour from you having found neither charity nor equity in your writings against mee . the assertion is such as will endure your strongest battery , what you say here is merre wrangling , like a sophister perverting my words when they are truly repeated , though thy are very plain . the argument is quite from the matter . the conclusion is , that the church cut off is not the invis●ble church but visible , which is not contradictory to my asserti●n ; who never asserted that the church cut of● was the invisible church , but often asserted the contrary , alwayes making the olive tree the invisible church to abide the same , though some branches were broken off , others were ingraffed , as in the first part of this review section . page . with this explication page . yet not as a rock that abides the same , but as a river which is in flux , and i often deny in express termes , as pag. , . that my meaning was that the church of god is broken off from the invisible church ; but this i say , that the nation of the jews , of which the body or most part in some ages were in the invisible church as branches in the olive in a continued succession , in the time of the apostle that people , to wit the most part of that nation were broken off from the invisible church or olive tree , in which that people in the individual persons of a former age did stand . which thing having been so often and so plainly expressed by mee in that book which mr. bl. takes on him to answer , it is an extremely shamefull abuse hee offers mee in going about to refute that as my assertion which is disclaimed by mee . now this being premised and the term [ this church ] ( as it should be ) being changed into [ this people or nation ] that is a great or the greatest part of them , i answer they are broken off from the invisible church , in that the numerical persons that made up the invisible church in a former age being dead , the successors degenerated from their faith , and were neither visible professors nor invisible believers in christ : which not believing was their own act from their own will , yet consequent on gods act of rep●obation , and the breaking off , to wit the deprivation of them from the membership and priviledges of his invisible church , was gods act of punitive justice for their unbelieving . and thus the similitude of cyrus his turning euphrates , serves my purpose , to shew how i am free from holding arminian apostasie , the same people like that river beeing turned from their old channel , though not the same persons ; not as mr. bl. falsly chargeth mee , that in my expression the church is changed from the invisible body of christ , to a visible company of bare professours , or that the church had changed her own channel . nor do i grant the question , or confess that the church is visible that god breaks off , and whatsoever it had been , now it hath no more then a visible interest ; so that a visible church falls off , and gentiles are ingraffed into that which is visible ; but what i say is of the jewish people , who had not so much as a visible interest when god brake them off , or they fell off , and the gentiles are ingraffed into the invisible church in their stead . nor need i shew an invisible nation broken off , it being neither true that i spake of an invisible nation , nor that a visible nation cannot bee cut off from the church invisible , but these are mr. bls. dotages for want of heeding mine and his own words ( as i conceive ) through hast to insert some thing against me in that book ere it was printed . which is so far from being enough to answer me , that a● solomon said of him that answered a matter afore he heard it , so it may be said o● mr. bl. answering me afore he had studied my writings , he hath said enough to shew his folly and to work his shame . my candour p. . is ordinary where there is the like cause : i conceive the election of bodies , societies , or nations , in the sense i have often given , may bee as well into the invisible church of true believers , as into the visible church of true professors , and that the election of the gentiles , by which they were ingraffed , was into the invisible church of true believers . of calvins and b●cers words i shall say no more having not ●he books . mr. bl. p. . adds . mr. g. syllogistically concluding that the seed of christians by a pure gospel covenant should enjoy outward church priviledges , mr. t. sect . . replies , that it is not either formally or equivalently the thing to be proved , which is , that the christian jews and their seed were in infancy to be baptised . but by his favour , he that concludes the whole ; concludes the parts of the whole . outward church-priviledges is the whole , baptism is a part of the whole ; concluding church priviledges he concludes baptism , as hee that can conclude mr. t. is at lempster or sudbury , concludes also that his head and shoulders are . and if any priviledge bee concluded , then baptism is concluded , which is the leading one among church-priviledges . answ. omitting mr. bls. snarling at my dwellings in lemster and ledbury ( for so hee means ) i observe how well he pleads for mr. g. who would have him conclude , that the seed of christians by a pure gospel covenant should enjoy in infancy outward church-priviledges as a whole , and consequently baptism as a part . which if it were mr. gs. arguing , hee should by the same reason have concluded their enjoying the lords supper , and church office . nor is the other plea much better : for some priviledge may be concluded , as laying on hands for a sign of prayer as christ did , and yet not baptism . for though baptism be the leading priviledge after a person is brought to the faith , yet afore a person is a believer , if there be any leading church-priviledg competent to infants , it must be laying on of hands , the scripture giving no hint of any other . the distinction i give in the first part of my review , sect . . p. . is handsome , being set down as it is by me there , though mr. bl. carp at it , for those priviledges which mr. g. termes gospel priviledges , and i term so in answer to him as keeping his term , i may say of them ( if they may be so called , and not rather legal . ) mr. bs. words , the breaking off from the church is an unavoidable consequence of the revoking of the gift of churchmembership , and the repealing of the ordinance : therfore where there is no breaking off from the church , there is no such revoking or repealing ; do justifie the title of the th . sect . of the first part of my review . that the breaking off rom. . . was not by repeal of an ordinance concerning infants visible churchmembership as mr. b. conceive , which mr. bl. opposeth with me . and his first reason , the deserving cause of that breaking off is unbelief ▪ now unbelief is not in infants , much less proper to infants , serves to prove that the infants of unbelievers are not broken off , for unbelief is not in them , and that infants of believers are not graffed in . for as the deserving cause of breaking off i● unbelief which is not in infants , so the means of graffing in by the rule of opposites is faith , which is not in infants . and when in his d . reason he saith , this breaking off was of the general body of the church of the jews , that is the major part . now infants were not the generality , they made not up the major part of that body , this serves to answer what mr. bl. before p. . and elsewhere would infer , that if the gentiles or the body of them be elect then all must be so , whereas the body according to himself may stand for the major part or generality , which he denies infants to be , and therefore the body and gen●rality may be ingraffed and not infants . mr. bls. exceptions against my distinctions of breaking off because breaking off implied a former union are vain , for there may be a breaking off from that union which they had not in their own persons , specially when the breaking off is of a people , nor is it usual to term th●se acts privations of habits which take not away habits that were , but might have been , as when we are said to be redeemed , delivered from hell , to be cast out into outer darkness , matth. . . though never in heaven . but were not this right but non-sense , yet mr. ●ls exceptions against the distinctions is frivolous . for in those distinctions i do not set down the wayes of breaking off that were actually , but such as are imaginable , which is necessary when we go about to argue by a disjunctive syllogism , as all logicians know . yet what mr. bl. saith , excommunication is not the breaking off meant rom. . , . for that is the act of the church on some particular member ; but this here is the act of god , which is by taking away the kingdome , by removing their candlestick , departing with his presence , is right , if understood of the subtracting of the presence of his spirit , as well as his word . which is to be conceived , for the word was offered and preached to them when they were broken off , and therefore they were not broken off barely by subtracting that . besides the ingraffing is not by bare outward ordinances , for they were vouchsafed even to the broken off , and consequently the f●tness of the olive is not the bare priviledge of outward ordinances . and if it be not the churches act , but gods by which there is ingraffing , then infants are not ingraffed , who have no act of god to ingraff them , but onely that of the church or administratour of baptism . mr. bls. talk of the ordinance of infants visible churchmembership , begun in the great charter of heaven , and continued , is but vapouring ; mr. bl. mis recites mr. bs antecedent which was not as hee repeats it , that the jews were cast off for unbelief , but that none of the jews were broken off but for unbelief , which i denied , and mr. bls. exceptions is frivolous . but the text assignes unbelief , mr. t. assignes no other cause , then that must stand . to which i reply , and so it doth by my answer , and yet i do assign another cause , gods act of executing his decree of reprobation . to what i said , that the unbelief being positive rom. . . if none were broken off but unbelievers here meant , no infants no not of infidels that never heard of christ were broken off , he saith we easily yeild his conclusion , if he frame it in a syllogism ; that the infants of infidels that never heard of christ were never broken off . they could never be broken off that were never taken in , a branch of a bramble was never broken off from a vine or olive . answ. . they may be said to be broken off who were never taken in in their own persons , sure the abortives and stil-born were never taken into the visible church of the jews , and yet if other infants were broken off so were they , and if they were broken off though they were never taken in in their own persons but their ancestors , then the infants of infidel edomites might be said to be broken off , who were in esau , isaac , and abraham taken in : but they were not positive unbelievers , therefore other then positive unbelievers are broken off , which opposeth mr. b. . if infants of infidel edomites be not broken off , then according to mr. b. the ordinance of visible churchmembership is not in respect of them revoked and repealed , and consequently they are visible churchmembers according to the tenour of mr. bs. arguing . . if god will not punish the children for the fathers sins ( as mr. b. sai●h ) much less for a strangers , then he would not break off the unbelieving jews infant children , then they are visible churchmembers if mr. bs. arg . hold . . mr. bls. reason is answered before , by shewing how there may be privations of habits not in being ; and if his reason were good , and unbelieving jews infant could not be broken off , for that it was never in the visible church christian , and is the branch of a bramble . to my words , that the breaking off is not revoking of an ordinance about visible churchmembership , but the execution of the decree of reprobation in excluding them from the invisible church , m. bl. replies . by demand ; is there any such decree as to cast out of the church invisible ? i am sure that chapter hath no such thing . answ. there is a decree of breaking off from the church invisible , and that decree is plainly exprest in that chapter , v. , , , . for what comes to pass in time that god decrees . but they were broken off in time from the invisible church of believers , v. , , , , , , , . ly . saith he , i demand did they continue in the church visible , when upon execution of such a decree they were cast out of the church invisible ? or was their station in the visible church lost , and that of the invisible church never gained , and therefore they were not broken off from it . answ. they continued in the visible church jewish in opposition to the visible church christian , which they persecuted when they were cast away and broken off from the church invisible of true believers , according to gods decree of reprobation , though they never gained a station in the invisible church in their own persons . mr. bl. adds ly . the jews adhering to circumcision , &c. though god changed the rites moses gave them , refused the way of god , rejected the counsel of god in not being baptised , doting upon elements beggerly , and so their eys are held , that they see nothing into glorious gospel mysteries ; and this their unbelief is their breaking off from that visible church station , in which they sometimes stood , upon which account they are kept out from interest in the church invisible . and when this blindness shall be removed , they shall then be saved . answ. their unbelief was the means of their breaking off , but not of their breaking off from that visible church-station in which they sometimes stood ; the visible church-station in which they stood , is , as mr. bl. himself describes it , their station in the jewish church visible in the way of church ordinances , circumcision , sacrifices , &c. changed by god ; yet , as he himself faith , the jews stuck thereto , and therefore stood still in their former visible church-station . besides , their unbelief was not their breaking off from it . for . as mr. bl. said before the breaking off was gods act , so was not their unbelief . . according to mr. bl. breaking off was gods act of punishment , but it was no punishment but a mer● to be broken off from that visible church station . nor upon the account of their breaking off from that visible church station in which they sometimes stood , were they kept out from interest in the church invisible , but for their unbelief , and their keeping that church station . however , if they were kept out from interest in the church invisible , their breaking off is more then depriving of a visible churchstate , y●a the same which i assert , a breaking off from the invisible church . if there be any mazes in my th . and th . sections of the first part of my review , mr. b. led me into them , whom i was necessitated to follow : mr. bs. arguments are answered without confusion , and with so much strength , as neither mr. bl. nor mr. b. are able to refute . mr. bl. asserts contrary to me , that the christian visible church and the jewish are one and the same , . because japhet dwels in shems tents , which are the church visible , and this he saith needs no proof . but i require proof that by shems tents are meant , gen. . . the visible church jewish or christian. . because they are one sheep-fold , joh. . . and to the objection that it 's meant of the invisible church , because christ gives notes of those that were indeed his sheep , he saith , christ speaks to those that were disciples onely according to profession , and gives notes , joh. . . of disciples indeed ; and it is against all reason , that christ should in discourse point out the invisible church with the demonstrative this , and that to those that were malignant enough in the church visible , the pharisees , as appears in the close of the former chapter . and the mention of thieves creeping into it , hirelings employed in it , doth contradict it . the visible church of the jews and gentiles in which christ hath true sheep for whom he dies , and others that thieves and hirelings do deceive , makes up one sheep-fold . answ. the text rather proves the contrary as mr. bl. expounds it ▪ for if the fold be the visible church , and the other sheep are not of that visible church , then there is not one fold or church of jews and gentiles , but some sheep are of one fold ▪ or visible church , and some of another . as for mr. bls. arguments , they are of no force . for christ might well enough in his discourse point out the invisible church with the demonstrative [ this ] it being usual to point out invisible things by it , as joh. . , &c. this god is our god : and yet i do not think [ this fold , john . . ] notes the invisible church , but the people or nation of the jews , as piscator , grotius , &c. expound it , or rather the place . for the fold , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , notes not the sheep , and therefore not the church , but the place or country where or whence they are ▪ nor were deceivers , hirelings , thieves , or wolves , in or of the church meant joh. . , . though they might get into the place and company of them . nor is it truly translated by our translatours [ there shall be one fold , ] though ( which i somewhat marvel at ) they follow therein the vulgar latine : for the tigurine divines note , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greek signifies the flock , not the fold . and beza excepts against the vulgar for it , and against the romanists , who would have that one f●ld to be rome . and grotius observes that the speech is proverbial , one flock one shepheard , to which he makes ezek. . . to be like . now that the one flock is not the meer visible church , but the invisible , it appears from many things in the text , that christ laid down his life for them , that they follow him , hear his voyce , his father and he knows them distinguishingly from others who do not believe because they are not of his sheep , that he gives them eternal life , none can pluck them out of his fathers hands , v. , , , , , , . out of which many protestant divines gather absolute election , particular redemption , effectual conversion and perseverance , against arminians . and diodati in his annot . on joh. . hath it thus . other sheep ] namely , the elect among the gentiles , who are to be called by the gospel , and incorporated into the church with the elect of the jewish nation . one body , cor. . . one new man , ephes. . . are the invisible church as is shewed before . matth. . . the kingdome of heaven is the kingdome of glory . matth. . . the kingdome of god is either the gospel by a metonymy , or the rule of god in their hearts , which was taken from them , that is that people , with whose ancestors it was , though not in those persons from whom it was taken . the visible church cannot be meant by the kingdome , for the fruits of the kingdome are not the fruits of the meer visible church , they are not bare profession , but real faith , holiness , and obedience , which are fruits of the spirit , not of the church ; or if of any church , of the invisible , not the meer visible . and though all invisible members bring forth fruit , yet that nation which had invisible members bringing forth fruit in a former age , may in an after age not bring forth fruit , and for that reason the church invisible may be taken from them , with whom it was in respect of their ancestors . to what i said , if the christian gentiles were graffed into the same visible church with the jews , then they should have been circumcised , &c. contrary to the determination acts . mr. bl replies , that is of no force , as though we may not be in the same kingdome , and yet under a new way of administration . law-givers on earth are sometimes pleased to change their laws , and so doth the law-giver of heaven ; or if he will limit his instance to circumcision , taking in no other laws . the same house may have a new door or porch . let mr. t. then know that he is in the same visible kingdome as abraham , isaac , and jacob , and their posterity after the flesh in israel were . answ. that which mr. bl. saith of the lameness of a kingdome under a new way of administration , of law givers changing their laws , of gods doing so , the identity of a house with a new door , is all granted ; but doth not take away the force of my reason , unless he could shew that any were graffed or to be graffed into the visible church jewish without circumcision , if he were a male . doth not mr. bl. maintain here in answer to my th . argument , that we are partakers of the same outward priviledges and ordinances with the jews , as he expounds rom. . . which opposeth his speech here of a new way ? doth not scripture term the jewish church or people , the circumcision , because those that were in that church , if male , were circumcised ? was not cornelius taken for unclean , and not of that church , because uncircumcised ? or was he ever in the jewish church after his baptism ? god might admit into the jewish church another way then by circumcision ; but mr. bl. cannot shew he or the jews did so . we are in the same invisible kingdome of true believers , and elect persons , with abraham , isaac , and jacob : but i do not yet know by any thing mr. bl. hath hitherto said , that i am in the same visible kingdome with abraham , isaac , and jacob , and their posterity after the flesh in israel . every one in the visible kingdome of israel after the flesh , did partake of the passeover ; the apostle saith , cor. . behold israel after the flesh : are not they which eat of the the sacrifices partakers of the altar ? which intimates that israel after the flesh did then when he wrote eat of the sacrifices , which christians did not , and therefore were not adjoyned to israel after the flesh , but in that very place , v , . distinguished from them . i take mr. bls. assertion to infer jad●ism : and if he or any other be not satisfied by my answer to mr. cobbet , i have more reason to impute it to their prejudice , then to defect in my answer . sect . lxxvi . my sense of matrimonial holiness ▪ cor. . . is vindicated from mr. blakes exceptions , vindic. faed . ch . . and mr. sydenhams exircit . ch . . mr. bl. ch . . avoucheth , still his sense of federal holiness , cor. . . i proceed to view what he saith . sect. . he sets down the apostles resolution and the reason of it rightly , which because it will tend much to the clearing of the sense which i give , i shall here transcribe it . let him not put her away , let her not leave him , unbelief breaks not the marriage bond , ●enders it not a nullity , religion being not of the substance of marriage . but what he saith , that their scruple and ground of their fear was the condition of their issue , lest that they should not be reckoned with the saints , but of the fellowship of the unclean gentiles , is fictitious . for the resolution of it rightly given before by mr. bl. himself , shews that their scruple arose not from fear of their childrens condition , but the nullity of their marriage , or unlawfulness of continuing in it by reason of the unbelief of the one party ; else the apostle had not made his resolution apposite to the removing their scruple . yea , mr. bls. own speech is against his own conceit , when he saith , reason is strong for this , for they well knew , as it is with the parent , so it is with the child for church state and condition , being a priviledge communicable and descendable from parent to child . if the parent were without , and of the gentiles , the child was ever such ; and in case they were of the people of god , their children were reckoned so in like manner : now parents being divided , the one holy , the other unclean , they feared that the issue would follow the worser part , a s●ain would lie upon them , they would be accounted unclean with the unbelieving parent . in a like case it had been so determined , ezra . . for if they well knew as it is with the parent so it is with the child for church-state , they knew that the believing parent being a churchmember , notwithstanding the yokefellows unbelief , their children were churchmembers , and so made no scruple of that , nor did paul , or need he to resolve that scrup●e about their childrens condition . yea , the very form of the apostles reasoning , else were your children unclean , doth plainly import , that they took the uncleanness of their children as an absurdity deprehended by them , and the contrary out of doubt ; as when , cor. . . the apostle saith , else what shall they do that are baptized for the dead , if the dead rise not ? he supposeth they took it for an absurdity , and the contrary out of doubt , that they that are baptized for the dead do it in vain . and though that the parents being divided they might fear that the issue would follow the worser part , a slain would lie upon them , yet that this stain should be in respect of their churchstate , could not be , if they well knew , as mr. bl. saith , as it is with the parent so it is with the child for churchstate , their own state in the church being manifest and certain . that the case of the corinthians and those , ezra . . is not like , is shewed in the first part of this review , sect . , . and will come into further consideration in that which follows . what mr. bl. adds , that the apostle tels them , that the unbelieving party doth not ( as they fear ) defile the issue , but is sanctified as to issue by the believer , is a meer fiction . for the apostle onely tels them they did not defile each other , but were sanctified to each other , by reason of their marriage state , not the faith of one party . and it is as false , that by reason of the parents faith the apostle tels them the child is not reckoned with the unbelieving parent who is a gentile , or that by unclean is meant a sinner of the gentiles , for the child of both parents gentile believers is still a gentile ; and if unclean be a sinner of the gentiles , by holy should be meant a jew by nature , which is a ridiculous conceit of mr. bls. as if the parent being a believer , the child were a jew by nature , and not a sinner of the gentiles . what he adds , that by believer in that place , cor. . . is meant a professor of the true faith , is vain , when the word believer is not used in that v. or any v. of that chapter about that matter , nor in that sense there . if to be sanctified , cor. . . be not to be set apart for god , as mr. bl. determines , then the term sanctified is not used in the common if not onely use of the word in scripture and prophane writers , and by him conceived here , as mr. b. asserts plain script . proof , &c. part . . ch . . p. . in answer to the d . sect . of the th . ch . of mr. bls. vindic faed . i say first , that i do not yeild that the corinthians had any scruple at all about their issue . . that my waving the examining of the occasion of the doubt resolved cor. . , , . was not because of any strength i found in mr. bls. allegations , but because i conceived neither of our opinions any other then a conjecture , and therefore the thing not material , nor in the framing my postscript had i time enough to do what i did after , not out of a mind to quarrel , but to shew the invalidity of mr. marshals ●h . arg . for his interpretation from his conceit of the occasion of the doubt , to have been by reading the fact mentioned ezr. . . mr. bl. here endeavors to confirm his exceptions against my allegation of cor. . . as the occasion of the doubt resolved cor. . . yet replies nothing to my answer to the two first , but to the d. saith . if their scruple was concerning conversing with their idolatrous yoke fellows , upon occasion of those words not to keep them company ; they must needs scruple their conversing with covetous , and extortioners , husbands or wives upon the same account ; and the apostle being silent in his answer , it is clear they were silent in their letter , and moving no scruple , they had no scruple ; when it is impossible for them to scruple one upon those words and not scruple all ▪ here is the wildest of fancies , when hee names four evils respective to civil social converse ; they should startle at one ( respective to their marriage society ) and question no more . to which i answer , it is neither impossible nor very unlikely , much less a wild fancy to imagine it of them , that the corinthians either did not scruple at using their covetous husbands , from cor. . , . though they did their idolatrous , if they did not heed the explanation after added v. . but onely the precept v. . and understood by fornicators idolaters , which they might easily do ; or if they did heed the explanation , yet did not conceive the like reason of relinquishing covetous yoke-fellowes as idolatrous , which they might well do , finding precepts against marriages with idolaters , none against marriages with them that were onely covetous and not idolaters , or they might not put the doubt of any other to the apostle then the idolatrous , because there were none that had covetous yokefellows who were not idolaters , and they wovld put the case onely about that which was the chief cause of their scruple , or because they could easily resolve themselves , that coveteousness and extortion from men do not so defile or are so inconsistent with marriage society as idolatry , and going a whoring from god , or they might put the case about the covetous as well as the idolaters , yet the apostle resolve the one onely expresly , because the resolving the one would resolve the other ▪ for which and for other reasons which might occur , though not discernable now , they well either startle at one onely , or not seek for resolution of any more , or if they did , yet paul resolve no more . and this being understood , the apostle needs not write to them as mr. bl. imagines he must , if my conjecture hold , and he took in every part of their scruple , though not what mr. bl. conceivs must be their scruple upon my conjecture . and hereby mr. bls. replies of wonder of my thoughts , of the apostles need of resolving both scruples , of the same evident ground of scruple concerning each , as one are plainly answered without reply to his taunting quips . the rest also is answered concerning b. howson , bunney , my uncle whately ; for it goes upon this supposition , that if the corinthians took occasion to doubt , from cor. . . then they must doubt whether they must live with fornicating yoke-fellows , and the apostle must resolve them , that if any brother have a wife that is a fornicator let him not put her away , which may not follow it by fornicators they understood onely idolaters and so doubted of them onely , or chiefly doubted of them , or resolving themselves otherwise propounded the doubt onely of them , or the apostle thought it needful onely to resolve concerning them , knowing that they might from his resolution of them be resolved of the rest , especially if the words let him not put her away , be not a prohibition forbidding him to put her away , but as a permission allowing him not to put her away , which hath its likelihood . but of this enough , if not too much about a conjecture not very material . my words in my postscript page . bare not mr. bl. in hand of any further answer then hath been given him , my censure of his absurd glosses , dictates , fl●rts incoherent , impertinent passages , little solid nervous disputing is delivered in language meet to express the truth . if mr. calamy and mr. vines in their epistle used not vain crackings of mr. marshal , and mr. bls. answer to my letter besides their misrepresentations of my examen , i never met with any . were their worth far greater then it is , and mine far less , i shall take liberty however my ingeny be questioned , as freely to censure mr. calamy and mr. vines , as i did in this , if they shall hereafter by their names and big words disparage the truth as they did in this . who of my nearest friends have told mee to my face , that they have been ashamed of that which i have written in my apology , whose honesty and judgement mr. bl. hath seeen attested under my own hand , i do not yet know , nor by ghess yet imagine . i know i have had censures hard enough of persons afore this controversie arose taken for my friends , and have laid them more to heart then i hope i shall do hereafter , finding upon the review of this dispute how unequal they have been , and if that eminently learned man who observed that i had donum impudentiae , were hee who wrote the second epistle to mr. baxter printed at the end of his confession of his faith , or any other did censure mee without well weighing my writings ( as i have many reasons to conceive they do ) as they are the more unrighteous , so they are deservedly the less regarded by mee . it was no impudence in mee to publish that men call on mee to answer mr. bl. or that his writing was commended when others had done it before . the most frivolous treatise that is , if it bee against me , yet it wants not some to magnifie it , mr. hussey's , mr. horns , dr. savages in latin and others want not applauders . i discern the spirit of paedobaptists even in those , whom i had taken to be moderate , judicious , friendly , yet in this point many of them shew neither equity to me , nor love to truth , nor judgement in according their opinion of paedobaptism with their former and later principles and practises . but i shall wait till god awake men , and specially those who have been so forward to reform discipline and ceremonies , and have by solemn covenant vowed to endeavour reformation according to gods word , that they may see from what they are fain . i go on . next mr. bl. speaks somewhat of the occasion of the doubt from ezra . . let me premise , saith he , this as an undoubted truth , that these corinthians had their scruples concerning their issue upon their marriage in this disparity . that which the apostle sati●fies in his answer , that the corinthians scrupled in their letter ; this no man can deny , for he writes to give satisfaction , as is plain v. . to their letter cases : but we see in the text that he satisfies as scruples concerning themselves , so also concerning their issue . to which i answer , the contrary is to me an undoubted truth , and so it was to dr. thomas goodwin , whose reason with mine should have had some answer from mr. bl. as for his syllogism the major is not certain , sith the apostle might give satisfaction on the by , about other things then the cases which they scrupled and wrote to him about . but the minor i do directly deny , and sith mr. bl. hath brought nothing to prove it , i slight it as a vain dictate . as for mr. bls. refusing to determine peremptorily , that the occasion of the scruple was that , ezra . & . it serves my turn to prove that no argument drawn from thence to conclude federal holiness of infants of believers is valid . i have often shewed how wee can imagine the corinthians hit upon their scruple , and were affected with it without respect to the fact , exra . & . and therefore need not again answer that question . mr. bls. not saying that the israelites and the corinthians case was wholly the same , tends to shew mr. marshals mistake , and the defect of his argument . and for what mr. bl. observes that the christian corinthians were under the moral law of moses and it was not so easie for them to determine that the command deut. . was judicial , i grant it , and thence infer that notwithstanding the words cor. . . yet they might not be so understanding in gathering consequences , or discerning the meaning of scriptures , but that they might conceive otherwise then rational men usually do , contrary to what mr. bl. suggests of them sect . . mr. bl. having censured rather then refuted dr. goodwins opinion of the childrens real holiness , cor. . . he tels me my interpretation is first childish , to tell the corinthians if their marriage society were adulterous , then their children were bastards , if their marriage were null children were illegitimate , this is too low a way of reasoning , such as every childe well knew before the apostle told them . to which i answer , if it were so easily understood it was the fitter for the apostles purpose to satisfie the tender consciences of doubting christians , who are best satisfied with that which is obvious , and easily discernable , especially when the persons are women , and men of ordinary capacities . and therefore this way of arguing shewed not childishness in the apostle but fatherly wisedome , and is a very good reason for my interpretation , not against it , sith it is acknowledged that the apostles arguing as by me framed is right , and serves his purpose . secondly , saith mr. bl. it is incongruous to bring phrases fully answering the churchstate and condition of either parents , believing and unbelieving ( which in the scripture is holy and unclean ) and yet to understand them of holiness and uncleanness of another kinde of l●gitimation and bastardy , if they may be ( as i think they never were ) so called is incongruous : that these words fully answer the churchstate of parents and the churchstate and condition which the children derive from them , is plain in that parallel text gal. . . jews by nature , that is holy by birth from believing parents , not sinners of the gentiles , not unclean by birth from unbeleeving ancestours ; so mr. cartwright on these words , in his answer to the rhemists . if you will know what this holiness of children new born is , the apostle telleth you , it is through the covenant to be a jew by nature , or birth : and if you will f●rther understand what this uncleanness of children is , the apostle in the same place telleth you , it is not to be sinners by nature as those which are born of the heathen . answ what i said before i say still , without any jeer or disregard to mr. cartwright , that the conceit that cor. . . and gal. . . are two full parallel scriptures , is but a dream , there being neither agreement in scope , matter , words or sense between them . not in scope . for cor. , , , . the apostles scope is ●o resolve a doubt about continuance of married persons in disparity of religion , gal. . . his scope is to determine by what we are justified , not in matter , for the one speaks of the sanctifying of husband and wife to each other , and the holiness or uncleanness of the children ; the other of jews and gentils acding to their different national state , nor is there one word used gal. . . which is used cor , . . nor can the sense be agreeing . for jew by nature cannot be as much as holy cor. . . because then the children of the corinthians should bee jews by nature , which was impossible , they being born of gentile parents , for such were the corinthians , cor. . . nor is mr. bls. sense jew by nature , that is holy by birth from believing parents , any where else found in scripture ; nor doth jew by nature intimate their churchstate , as if hee meant it thus ; we who are members of the visible church , or have this priviledge to bee in the covenont of grace by nature , in that wee are born of believing parents . for they are said to bee jews by nature by reason of their natural descent , without any respect to the faith or unbelief of their parents , even those whose parents were idolaters , as a●az , manasseh , or any other of that line were jews by nature , and not sinners of the gentiles , and the children of the most holy proselites , yet were not jews by nature : nor were they jews by nature through the covenant of grace , they were jews by nature without respect to the covenant of grace , for that was alwais to them who were believers , whether jewes or gentils , and the covenant whereby the jews had priviledge was not the covenant of evangelical grace , but the covenant of peculiar national blessinigs , but here the opposition to the gentiles , and the occasion shews jews to bee taken as a term appropriate to natural jews by natural descent from jacob in contradiinstction to gentiles from other roots . if any ask who are meant by [ we , ] and why here is mentioned [ jews by nature , ] and why they are opposed to the gentiles , and they termed sinners , i answer , the words seem plainly to be a part of pauls speech to peter , and that by we are meant himself with peter termed a jew , v. . and other believers of the circumcision , mentioned v. , . and the sense is , we though we are jews by nature , or even we who are jews by natural birth ; and this mentioned , because they had the law peculiarly given them , as piscator in his analysis , nos quantumvis judaei sumus , quibus nimirum lex peculiariter a deo data est . or as the opposite term [ sinners of the gentiles ] intimates , knowers and keepers of the law of moses , and therefore if any , certainly much more then sinners of the gentiles ▪ we should seek and expect to be justified by the law ; yet if we know that a man is not justified by the works of the law , but by the faith of christ , and even we have believed on christ jesus , that we might be justified by the faith of christ , and not by the works of the law , it is not equal that wee should as peter did at antioch , dissemble our liberty in christ , compel the gentiles to judaize or keep the law for righteousness , and so not walke uprightly or rightfoote it according to the truth of the gospel . now the gentiles are termed sinners in the sense , in which , in the ordinary acception among the jewes , it was taken for men that observed not the law , opposed to the righteous , matth. . . luke . , , , . & . , . and many more places : and in this sense it is taken , v. . we our selves also are sound sinners , that is , we our selves also are deprehended , convinced , or proved to be prophane breakers , or despise●s of the law : which the gentiles did , and which i think is meant ephes. . , , . and that paul doth not any more reckon himself with them ephes. . . then he doth with them that are alive at christs comming , opposite to them who are dead in christ , thes. . . though he use the first person plural in both ; for i see not how that could stand with his speeches of himself , acts , . philip. . ▪ , . and therefore do conceive a conception or an enallage of person , ephes. . . used often in speeches , whereby a speaker takes that to himself which is proper to others , whether to avoid distaste as if he upbraided them , or to insinuate into their affections , or for such like reason . out of all which i infer , . that [ jews by nature ] is not put gal. . . to intimate a birth-priviledge of the children of believers , whether jews or gentiles , concerning their ecclesiastical state even in infancy as visible churchmembers ; but it is put to note either the advantage peculiar to the jewish nation in that the law of moses was given to them , or rather the greater likelihood and meetness or congruity to seek or claim righteousness by the law then the gentiles . . that he meant not they were jews by nature through the covenant of grace . for that were clean opposite to his intention , which was to shew that their estate of being jews by nature did not confer to their justification , which doubtless it would have done if it had been by the covenant of grace , but to intimate , that the law was given to them , or rather they studious of it , and zelots for it , and therefore if any , they should be justified by it ▪ as paul in a like place , phil. . , , , , , , . so that whatever advantage or precedency is intimated by it , it is ascribed to the law , and their observing of it , not to the new covenant of grace . . the deteriority or worse condition of the gentiles is ascribed to them , not barely in respect of their birth from unbelievers , and so agreeing to their infants , much less as agreeing to infants of unbelieving jews as well as gentiles , but in respect of their manners either onely or chiefly , and so not competent to infants . and therefore notwithstanding mr. bl. thought gal. . . a fit text for his sermon , in which he asserted infants birth-priviledge of believing gentiles , though mr. calamy and mr. vines crack in their epistle before mr. bls. answer to my letter , that he hath truly stated the the question , set it upon the right basis , and well fortified it , and mr. bl. hath produced somewhat from mr. cantwright to colour his parallelling cor. . . with gal. . . yet i say still , and have such a gift of impudence as to aver , that both mr. cartwright was mistaken , and mr. calamy and mr. vines did vainly crack of mr. bls. birth priviledge , and mr bl. hath grosly abused gal. . . as he did also gal . . and there is no parallelism of cor. . . and gal. . . to interpret the one by the other . . saith mr. bl. the argument thus understood is untrue : the stress is wholly laid upon the believing party , as to the holiness of the issue , twice over ; the unbeliever is meerly passive in it , when the child hath legitimation equally from both . against his interpretation , and for mine ( which chamier affirms to be calvini & omnium nostrorum ) take these arguments . . that holiness which necessarily follows to the issue , from the sanctification of an unbelieving by a believing yokefellow , is covenant holiness , and not legitimation : but the holiness in this place of the apostle necessarily follows to the issue from the sanctification of an unbeliever by a believer ; ergo , it is covenant holiness , not legitimation . . that which is derived from the eminency of one parent above another , and not equally from both , is not legitimation : but this holiness is derived from the eminence of one parent ( viz. the believing parent ) above the other ; ergo , it is not legitimation . . the result or fruit which follows from a believers faith is not legitimation : but the holiness in the text is a result of the faith of the believing yokefellow . the minor is evident , seeing faith is twice hinted at in the believer . i know that mr. t. denies that the unbelieving husband or wife is sanctified in the believing : it is ( saith he ) in the husband , not in the believing husband ; in the wife , not in the believing wife , that is not in the text. the marriage is between a believer and an unbeliever , the unbeliever is sanctified , whether husband or wife by their yokefellow , but not by their believing yoke fellow ; the reader that puts off his reason may matter such denials . answ. the reader that puts on his reason , will easily see good reason for my denial of each of the minors in each of mr. bls. three arguments , and the vanity of mr. bls. arguings , laying the stress wholly upon the believing party , which is not expressed in the text , but onely hinte● ; and upon a translation of the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by , which is not denied but may be translated in or to . will any man of competent reason conceive , that the apostle being to give reason of his resolution of an important point of cons●ienc● , about which he was by letter consulted , would so loosely argue as to leave out the chief word from whence he inferred his conclusion , and conclude holiness as resulting from that which is not named , yea though he named the opposite term twice ; and express a causality or antecedency by a term that had ordinarily another respect , when there was a proper and usual particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to express it by ? and on the other side so precisely name the terms of husband and wife twice , and your children expresly , and yet lay no part of the stress upon the conjugal relation so often and so plainly mentioned ? yea , do we think that the apostle giving a reason why the husband and wife might live together in disparity of religion , would lay the whole stress upon that which was meerly accidental to their marriage state , to wit , the ones being a believer , and the f●deral holiness of children , without which their mrrriage might be good at first , and they lawfully continue together , and not ascribe it to that conjugal relation , continuing which alone made their living together lawfull as their comming together at first ? that chamier did overlash in saying the interpretation of federal holiness was omnium nostrorum , is manifest by the words of musculus , melancthon , and camerarius , c●ted by me in my exercitation sect . . that it was calvins and many mo●e protestants opinion , is a prejudice against our opinion , but should not be with those that determine upon evidence of reason , not the authority of men . calvin was an excellent man , but we may say of him , non videt omnia . i follow mr. bl. in his next section . whereas mr. bl saith , i put the apostles argument into this form , if the unbelieving husband were not sanctified by the wife , then were your children unclean ; but they are not unclean , but holy ; ergo , the unbelieving huusband is sanctified by the wife : had he dealt fairly with me , he would have rectified the major , and changed [ by ] into [ to , ] the conclusion of the syllogism , and the words next before and all along in that section of my examen having [ to the wife ] which i contend for in that section , and pag. , . of my exercitation , as the genuine reading , disclaiming [ by the wife , ] and of this advertise mr. m. p. . of the first part of this review . the rest of the section is spent about the proposition proving this sequel , [ if the unbelieving husband be not sanctified in or to the wife , your children were unclean , ] and so included in the apostles consequence . mr. bl. would have it to be thus , answer to my letter , p. . [ all the children of an unbeliever are unclean , unless for generation he or she be sanctified by a believer . ] i conceive this proposition to be included in the apostles consequence , [ all the children of those parents whereof one is not sanctified to the other , are unclean ; ] or [ none of the children of those parents whereof one is not sanctified to the other are holy . ] the point in difference between us , is , whether it be necessary to insert [ of an unbeliever , unless for generation he or she be sanctified by a believer . ] this i deny for these reasons . . that is not necessary to be inserted , without which the apostles conclusion is inferred : but the apostles conclusion is inferred without mr. bls. addition ; ergo. the major is of it self evident . the minor is thus proved . the apostle in his argument doth not at all mention sanctification for generation , there may be and was sanctification without generation , else no husband and wife could be sanctified one in or to another except children were begotten , and so the apostle should not resolve the lawfulness of their l●ving together who were barren ▪ which is absurd . nor is it necessary to add [ by a believer , ] sith the apostle hath omitted it , and that as it is very probable of set purpose . nor is it necessary to add [ unbeliever ] because it is false then even according to paedobaptists hypotheses . for then it would fo●low , the children of two believers are unclean , and so isaac and jacob should be unclean , or out of the covenant ; if this were added all the children of those parents , whereof one is not an unbeliever sanctified for generation by a believer , are unclean . . the second reason i form thus . that is not necessary to be added , which would make the apostles proposition false : but mr. bls. addition would make the apostles proposition false . for it is false , which he makes the apostles proposition , all the children of an unbeliever are unclean , unless for generation he or she be sanctified by a believer . for whether by uncleanness we understand non-admissibleness into the church , it is false ; for the children of unbelievers bought with money by abraham , though infants , yet were in mr. bls. sense federally holy : and me thinks mr. bl. who asserts against mr. firmin the baptizability of the infants of the generality of en●lish though the parents be openly profane , and hate godliness , should not deny it : however , the case is clear in the circumcision of professed infidels children bought with money , gen. . . and for federal real holiness , i suppose mr. bl. will not deny , but that many of them , as rahab , &c. were in the covenant of saving grace . to the first of these , mr. bl. . saith thus , pag. . i pray leave generation out , and see whether there can be any sense in it , unless it be understood ; their sanctification will confer no legitimation , without generation ; if i say not believer , i must say husband or wi●e that is a believer . asw. if generation be left out , and believer , it may be good sense according to my interpretation . an unbelieving husband may be sanctified to his wife , that is , may lawfully use her though she were an unbeliever as his wife , and may continue to live with her , and she with him , though they never had or should have children , else your children which you might beget should be unclean ; but this being put , they are legitimate . but according to mr. bls. interpretation it is not good sense in the case of the barren ; for she or he are not instrumentally sanctified for generation , there being no generation there is no being an instrument for generation , nor sanctification thereto . and an instrument is an efficient , and where there is no effect there is no efficient , nor instrument : and to be sanctified instrumentally must be as an instrument to a principal agent , which in this thing cannot be any other then god ; now no instrument of god fails to produce its effect , therefore without actual generation , no wife can bee said to bee instrumentally sanctified for generation . and for the leaving out the term [ believer ] it is good sense as i expound it without it , and if the apostle had not conceived it good sense without it , hee would not , as hee did , have left it out . but i confess it is not good sense according to mr. bls. interpretation , who saith ( though falsely ) p. . the stress is wholly laid upon the believing party , as to the holiness of the issue twice over . i confess their sanctification would confer no legitimation actual without actual generation ; yet their might bee legitimation of issue ( which is enough to shew the consequence to bee good and for the apostles purpose ) without actual generation , the legitimati●n being onely upon supposition ( as it is usual in such arguments ) and so the generati●n onely supposed . doubtless the apostle resolved the corinthians of the lawful living together of the barren as well as they that had or should beget , which wil● not agree with mr. bls. exposition of instrumental sanctification for that is not true but of actual generation past or future , as i have proved . but mr. bl. adds , the apostles major is of an unbelieving huusband and a believing wife , and i make the propo●●tion universal , according to the capacity of the subject of all believing wives joyned to unbelieving husbands , not with mr. t. of all husbands and wives . and this is the apostles included proposition , which must bee the basis of so many inferences and refutations , when yet all mens logick ( except what mr. t. hath learnt ) will utterly disclaim it . answ. that the apostles major is not of an unbelieving husband and a believing wife , is manifest by the words in which the term [ believing ] is in both speeches left out . and sure if the apostle would have ascribed any thing to the believer as such , hee could as easily have put it in as the term unbeliever , or the terms brother or sister , used v. , . and though i deny not that the wife , or huusband opposite to the infidel yoke-fellow were believers , yet i have l●arned so much logick and divinity , that what attributes do agree materially do not alwayes agree formally in each speech , as though ishmael was the son of abraham , yet what is said of him gal. , , , , , ● . is said of him n●t as abrahams sonne , but as hagars . and so it is here , though the husband or wife were a believer , yet they are not there consid●red as believers , nor the things there spoken of them ascribed to them under that consideration , but under the consideration of husband and wife : and if any disclaim this logick , he will disclaim such logick as the holy scripture useth in these and other places . i alledged in my examen part . . sect . . p. . the words of chamier : tom . . paustr. cath . l. . c. . § . . against augustines interpretation of cor. . . o● a ceremonial holiness , as apposite to refute his own of federal . for saith hee , that interpretation is ridiculous if these propositions bee not true , that all born of those ●arents whereof one is not sanctified in the other , are begotten in the time of the womans monethly courses , infidel husbands never use their wives but at such time , for so the apostle is made to speak by augustines interpretation . now the self same i shewed to follow on his own interpretation , the words being changed which should bee changed in such a retorsion . for then according to it the apostle should say , all the children born of those parents of whom one is not san●tified in the other , are out of the covenant of grace , infidel parents never beget of their wives children within the covenant of grace . both which are false , and consequently the interpretation of chamier , whence it is apparent that chamier made these pr●positions in the apostles arguing to be included , those children whereof one parent is not sanc●ified in the other are unclean , none of the children of those parents whereof one is not sanctified in the other are holy . i said also in my antidote pag. . that mr. bl. confessed these propositions included in the apostles consequence . against this mr. bl. thus riseth up . what can i i●agine but that mr. t. knowingly fastens this gross untruth upon mee ? seeing he so we i knowes that i both deny it and have argued against it ( having made such defence ●s he could in his apology of it ) y●t now in his antidote says i confess it . i am overmuch honoured to be named ( if i may say so ) the day that chamier is mentioned , but as much wronged to have such a monster of absurdities ( as is contained in that proposition ) obtruded upon mee ; my thoughts are over-high of chamier to believe any such weakness in him , when mr. t. shewes it in him ( having yet given his reader no account where it may bee found ) i shall subscribe to that proverb ; nullum magnum ingenium sine aliqua mixtura dementiae . answ. chamiers words in the place cited , making the apostles arguing with augustines exposition to include the two propositions before named , do plainly shew , that in his logick the apostle asserted these propositions , all the children whereof one parent is not sanctified in the other are unclean , none of them are holy ; and mr. bl. in his answer to my letter ch . . sect . . pag. . to my fourth argument against instrumental sanctification thus made , in this form of reasoning this proposition is included ; their children could not bee holy without that sanctification , which could not bee true of instrumental sanctification and federal holiness , replies never den●ing the proposition to bee included , but avers i● true of instrumental sanctification and federal holiness , yea most true , necessarily and universally true : now hee that saith without that sanctification ( of one parent in the other ) the children could not be holy , saith none of the children of those parents whereof one is not sanctified to the other are holy , to which is equipollent all the children of those parents whereof one is not sanctified in the other are unclean . and thus it is shewed mr. bl. where hee and chamier confessed those propositions to bee included , which indeed have no monster of absurdities in them , but are the genuine medium of the apostles argument , and chamier without any mixture of madness , did acutely discern to be included in the apostles reasoning , though hee heeded not how this very observation overthrowes his own interpretation as well as augustines . the rest of this section not answered about the reason i gave why the proposition included in the apostles sequel is to be conceived without the terms of believer and unbeliever inserted by mr. bl. and the illustration of it i shall make no further reply to here , but refer the reader to what is so largely spoken in vindication of my self in the first part of this review sect . . pag. . sect . . pag. , . i proceed to examine mr. bls. fifth sect. of the th . chapter , although there are some things in the sixth section which perhaps might bee more fitly answered first . mr. bl. sect. . having said that i alledge , that the apostles in this text brings a formal argument to prove the marriage society of these yoke-fellowes lawful , which in the two former verses hee had determined , hee then adds . and it cannot be denied but the words at the first sight , seem to carry some colour to understand them so far in mr. t. his sense , as to make them formal , concluding reasons of his former determination having said v. , . then hee adds v. . but the way of inference will as well bear it , that the apostle doth first determine in the controversie by revelation ( as mr. t. will have it ) as an apostle , then takes off their scruples which o●casioned their fears , both respective to their posterity and themselves ; mr. t. indeed challenges this way of interpretation to make the apostle immethodical , but what better method then to determine a point , and then answer reasons against it ; the apostle meeting with their fears in respect of their posterity and themselves , it must needs bee that they signified them and hee answers them ; the apostles method ( it is true ) and manner of inference indifferently favours either interpretation ; but the words themselvs clearly evince , that they are a removal of scruples against their marriage society , and not a formal concluding argument against it . answ. it is true it is a bottome i build much on , . that the apostle brings the media or middle terms of two syllogisms or formal arguments v. . to prove the lawfulness of the continuance in marriage society of the believing yoke-fellow with the unbeliever , determined by him v. , . and that they are not as v. . a rhetorical argument onely to move the affe●●ions to embrace what before their judgements were setled in , but a logical proof of the resolution by setting down the medium out of which a syllogism is to be framed to infer the conclusion . . that the apostle doth not at all resol●e any doubt about their posterity , but takes the state of their posterity as out of doubt with them , and thence infers that which was doubtful to them concerning their own marriage state . now mr. bl denies not the words at first sight seem to carry some calour to understand them so far in my sense as to make them formal , concluding reasons of the apostles former determination , and confesseth the apo●●les method and manner of inference indifferently favours either interpretation . b●t that the words are to bee analysed and conceived onely in ●he form i have resolved them , i prove , first by the particles , for , else , but now : all these particles are argumentative . [ for ] in many places , as rom. . . & . , &c. corinth . . , , &c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated else , or otherwise , or for then are argumentative , as cor. . . & . , . rom. . . in which places it notes an absurdity consequent , if the antecedent bee not granted : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but now , is used also frequently as an argumentative particle , as corinth . . , . rom. . . heb. . . & . . there are both these used , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so corinth . . . and accordingly pasor in his lexicon on the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , dici●ur etiam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , cor. . . interdum servit assumptioni syllogismi , cor ▪ ● . v. & . v. . mr. cobbet just. vindic . p●rt . . chap. . sect . . where the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 used in argumentation , as cor. . . and the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in like sort used , cor. . , . so rom. . ● . heb . , & . . & . . do declare that that sentence ( in the la●ter part of cor. . . ) is annexed in way of argumentation to the proposition immediately before . beza annot . ad cor. . . particula 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hoc in loco non est temporis adverbium , sed est conjunctio quae adhiberi solet in argumentorum assumptionibus . . this is proved from the ma●teer , i● is agreed on that the apostle determines the doubt of he corinthians v. , . and it is apparent that the first part of v. . is a reason of his determination . let us consider the det●rmination v. , . let him not put her away , let her not leave him . now this determination may be understood either as a plain prohibition forbi●ding the believer to put away or leave the unbeli●ving yoke-fellow at all , being contented to dwell with the believer . but this sense seems not to me to be the apostles intent ; . because it might then be a hard yoke , that a believer must not put away his wife which will dwell with him though she play the harlot ; or it may be understood as a determination of their liberty , let him not put her away , let her not leave him , that is , there is no necessity that he should put her away , that she should leave him , conscience and duty to god ties them not to do so , and this sense seems most probable to me , though i reject not the other , if some limitation more be added , as thus , let him not put her away , nor shee leave him , that is , i forbid them to leave each other barely for the disparity of religion . now the reasons of this later explication are these . . because the phrase v. . let him depart is not an absolute command but a permission , as the words following , a brother or sister is not under bondage in such cases , shew , and the like is to bee said of the resolution v. . so let him walk , that is , so hee may walk , and that it is the sense , i gather from the instances in the following verses , whereby the apostle illustrates his determination v. . is any man called being uncircumcised ? v . let him not become uncircumcised : is any called in uncircumcision ? let him not be circumcised . which speeches do not absolu●ely forbid the drawing up the fore-skin or the cutting it off , there might bee cases in which either might be lawful , but leave it at liberty , and so much the words ●ollowing also intimate circumcision is nothing , and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping the commandements of god , which expression intimates the i●differency of these , and the non availing to ingratiate us to god , which is not a fit reason for an absolute prohibition , but for a determination concerning the liberty of either . then the apostle v. . repeats his determination v. . let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called ; which ( though true of it ) is not meant of his ●hristian general calling , as if he had said , let every man abide in christianity wherein he was called , which the words seem at first r●ading to import ; for the words following , v. . art thou called being a servant ? do shew , that the term [ calling ] v. . notes th● state of life antecedent to his being a christian , which by an elegant ●ntanaclasis is termed by the apostle his calling : and this the apostle doth not enjoyn so as that he forbids any servant to be free ; but the meaning i● , as diodati in his annot. rightly expounds it , he may abide therein with a safe conscience , and ought not rashly to change it , neither through superstition , nor by doing another any wrong : but if he can do it for any just causes , or through any lawfull means , it is then lawfull for him to do it . the same is repeated v. . and is to be understood , not ( as oft preachers do understand it ) of a mans trade , or imployment onely , and as an absolute command , that a man should not leave his i●ployment , trade , or function in which he was bred , as of a tradesman to become a preacher ▪ &c. but the calling is any state of life in which the person was found , who was called to be a christian , as to be circu●cised or uncircu●cised , a servant or freeman , married or unmarried , subject or magistrate , and so proves that magistracy or any other state of life is consistent with christianity . and the apostles determination is not of necessi●y , as if a christian might not alter the calling or state of life he was in when he was converted , for then the servant might not become free , nor the unmarried marry ; but of liberty , that christians should not think themsel●es bound by their christian profession , to forsake these estates , but they might continue in them . and so is the resolution v. , . to be expounded . . this exposition is agree●ble to the occasion of the apostles determination , which was the corinthian christians doubt of the lawfulness of their living together , not of the inconvenience or convenience ( for in that they could have best resolved themselves ) and so the apostles resolution is of the lawfulness of living together . . this is further confirmed from the reason of his determination , v. , . in the first part of v. . which is apparently set down to meet with the reason of their doubt : they thought that they might not live with the unbeliever , because unholy . the apostle on the contrary determines though hee were unholy in himself , yet he was to his wife as if hee had been holy : and the reason is thus , the wife may live with him as her husband , who though an unbeliever , is in respe●t of marriage use as if he were sanctified : but so is the unbelieving husband ; ergo. which reason cannot be a meer rhetorical argument to move the affection , for it supposeth the unbeliever continuing such which was their vexation ; but an argument to satisfie their consciences : yet not of their duty that they must live together , for it is heterogeneous to that end , they were not bound to live together by reason of the sanctifiedness of the unbeliever , bu● gods command , which alone makes duty ; but of the lawfulness notwithstanding his infidelity , by determining against the ground of their doubt , the unlawfulness of living together with an unsanctified infidel . as for the words following , [ else were your children unclean , but now are they holy , ] they cannot be the resolution of another doubt : but . the forms of expression [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , else or otherwise , and but now , ] do plainly shew , that those words do confirm what was said next before , [ the unbelieving wife is sanctified to the husband . ] . they shew that the thing was certain even to them , that their children were not unclean , and that it was absurd in their conceits that their children should be unclean . mr. bl. himself saith , vindic. faed . pag. . else implies a certainty , that upon this account of sanctification of the parent , from whom the ground of fear arose , the children are holy ; a like certainty , that were it not that they were thus sanctified they were unclean . which words do plainly set down the two propositions i conceived in the apostles argument , which mr. bl. terms a monster of absurdity ; for [ it is certain that upon this account of sanctification of the parent from whom the ground of fear arose , the children are holy , ] is equipollent to this , [ all the children of those parents whereof one is sanctified to the other , are holy ; ] and [ it is certain , that were it not that they were thus sanctified , they were unclean , ] is equipollent to this , [ none of the children of those parents whereof one is not sanctified to the other , are clean or holy : ] and hereby their fear is confessed to have been about their own living together , and the ground of it the imagined non sanctifiedness of the parent , and that [ else ] doth imply a certainty of the childrens holiness upon this account of sanctification of the parent ; which evidently shews , that the childrens holiness is a consequent of the parents sanctification , and brought to prove it , and not to resolve another doubt of them . yea , it were ridiculous to resolve a doubt by a doubt , to resolve them their children were holy , because they were holy . rightly saith piscator in hi● scholie on the place . the argument is from the effect , to wit a consequent absurdity , and it is after this form , if the unbelieving husband were not sanctified in the wife , their children would be unclean : but they are not unclean , for they are holy ; therefore the unbelieving husband is sanctified in the wife . whence it is apparent , that the words are not a resolu●●●n of a doubt of their children , for then the childrens holines● would have been the conclusion , whereas it is the assumption , and consequently that the apostle useth formal arguments , or gives the middle-terms of them , and that he doth not resolve two doubts , but one of the lawfulness of the living together of yokefellows in disparity of relig●on , and th●t the first argument is taken from that which obviate● the ground of their fear , and the later confirms that argument from a consequent absurdity even in their apprehension , if that were not granted . t●is to be the t●u● analysis o● the apostles words , the words of chamier , beza , zegedin in his tables , and many more do shew , which i forbear to alledge as conceiving it needless . what saith mr. bl. to this ? let us look first into v. . where the [ for ] may lay as fair a claim to a formal reason as this in the ● th . and m. ● . himself says is a reason , antip●d pag. . but i would fain learn how he can make it up into a reason ; he must thus draw it up . whom a man in marria●e society may have hopes to save from idolatrous ways , with such a one he may continue in marriage society : but a believing husband in marri●ge society may have hopes to save his unbelieving wife from idolatrous ways ▪ ergo ▪ this proposition as to such a conclusion is . vain ; for though there were no such hopes , yet marriage society is to be continued , gentilism being not of the substance of marriage , which mr. t seems to yeeld , examen , pag . . this proposition is false as to this purpose ; the incestuous corinthian might ●ave had hopes to have converted his fathers wife ( if a heathen ) and yet such hopes would not conclude the lawfulness of their society together . herod might have had like hopes to have converted his brother philips wife , and yet this was not objected against john baptist , and had it b●en obje●●ed , it had be●n frivolous . we have many ●ases put about marriage , if such an argument would serve the turn , it would salv● them all . answ. though i say cor. . . is a reason to perswade to the resolution v. . yet i do not say it is a reason to conclude the lawfulness of living together , but to perswade them the rather to live together from the possibility or hopefulness of that event , which he urgeth in a rhetorical way in an interrogation , not in a logick way as he did v. . and yet it may be drawn up logically thus . they are the rather to live together , it being otherwise determined lawfull , whereof one , if they live together , may save the o●her : but so it may be if the brother or sister live with the infidel yokefellow , ergo. so that by my maintaining that v. . [ for ] notes the medium of a formal argument , and that thereby the lawfulness of the believing and infidel yokefellows continuing together in marriage society is concluded , and that [ for , v. . ] notes a reason of the resolution , v . yet it follows not the conclusion inferred v. . is the same with that inferred v. . nor the reason to be drawn as mr. bl. would , nor is there any need i should retract my analysis of v. , , . nor answer mr. bls. objections against 〈◊〉 argument which i neither ascribe to the apostle , nor is deducible out of any of my grants . mr. bl. adds . and for v. . though i cannot say , but in case i● were made up ( into mr. ts. his sense ) into a reason of the former conclusion , it would contain a truth , and so far might pass in the way of a reason : yet i have many material exceptions against it ; . from the thing it self , it would be a reason silly , childish , vain , your married condition is lawfull , else your children were bastards ▪ what child in corinth but well understood it ? . from the phrase in which it is delivered altogether unsuitable to a reason of this doctrine , . being onely to tell them , that the legitimation of their issue proved the lawfulness of their marriage society , he should attribute all ( as to either sex ) to the believer , when the child owe● his legitimation equally to either parent : : that being to give 〈◊〉 reason of the lawfulness of marriage in such a special case , he should give his reason of equal concernment to all marriages ▪ where both are unbelievers , both believers , as well as this between a believer and an unbeliever : . when he is to speak onely of legitimation and bastardy , he should phrase it in such uncouth language , and in words fit it onely suteable to their parents ecclesiastical capacity , whether title to it , as in the believer , or want of it , as in the unbeliever . now on the other hand interpret the apostles words ( as his method will equally beare ) accordingly as you have heard before , and no such inconvenience follows from the words either v. . or . answ. mr. bls. confession that my analysis and exposition would contain a truth , and that it might pass in the way of a reason , and therefore is opposite to the apostles purpose , and his exceptions though termed by him material , yet as i shall shew , having no weight , and his method and exposition neither agree with the words nor matter , is a very good evidence for me against him . as for his exceptions , they are the same which he brought before , sect . . and are answered by me in this section , that it was the fitter for the apostle to us● if the reason were so easily understood that the apostle doth not attribute all to the believer , that no reason was so fit to settle them about their special case , as that which evinced , that the marriage state was not made void by the unbelief of the parties , that the apostles phrases are not uncouth language after my sense , but very agr●eable to such language he useth in the same chapter ; as when v. by an antana●lasis he terms the civil state of the christians the calling wherein they are called , and to other expressions , as i shew in the first part of this review , sect . , , , , and that the phrases are not suitable to the parents ecclesiastical capacity ; and the apostles speeches and argument do imply falshood , and are inconsistent with the terms and matter of them , if expounded and r●solved as mr. bl. would . mr. bl. adds . and now mr. t. may easily receive answer to that odious inference , which he makes from our interpretation of covenant holiness . according to this interpretation ( saith he ) the medium of the apostle to prove the lawfulness of the living of a believing wife with an unbelieving husband , will as well prove the lawfulness of a believing fornicatrix living with an unbelieving fornicator , as may appear ( saith he ) by a syllogistical analysis of the apostles argument the major whereof is this , that man and woman may live together , notwithstanding the unbelief of one party , whereof one i● sanct●fied to the ●ther for begetting an holy seed . this is manife●●ly the apostles reason after our interpretation . but mr. t. is manifestly mistaken , not to mention the liberty that ●e will scarce allow another , to leave out husband and wife exprest in the text , and instead of it to put man and woman : the apostle doth not conclud● the lawfulness of their marriage society by the federation of their issue , but shews that t●e supposed and feared non-federation doth not conclude the unlawfulness : and i dare yeeld that any man an● woman may live together , notwithstanding any fear of the unholiness of their issue ; where one is sanctified by the faith of another to the begetting of an holy seed . and if mr. t. will apply this , which the apostle speaks , of a mans living with his wife ( ad faciendum populum ) to the living wi●h his whore , there is no danger to yeeld it ; pharez his issue had belonged to the commonweal of israel , if thamar had been an infidel , as for ought wee know , in all probability it was with jephtaes mother . if sampson had issue by the harlot of gaza judg. . . such issue had belonged to israel , such ●ssue male had right to circumcision . to gratifie mr. t. i shall put it under my hand , that if a man have no other reason from scripture to leave his harlot then the non-federation of his issue , he may still abide with her . answ. there is no mistake in my argument , nor is there any answer at all made by mr. bl. to it , which hee either wittingly or unwittingly i judge not , certain i am he doth manifestly mistake . he tels me , the apostle doth not conclude the lawfulness of their marriage society by the federation of their issue , whereby he intimates as if i said he did , and that therein was my mistake : but let my words be viewed apol. sect . . p. . postscript . sect . . p. . review part . . sect . , . and it will appear that i frame not the argument so according to the apostle ●ightly onderstood , but as mr. m. and others interpret him . i said the apostle concludes the lawfulness of their living together by the sanctification of the husband though an unbeliever to or in the wife , and that the proposition of the apostle is , they may live together whereof one is sanctified in the other , the assumption is , but the unbelieving husband is sanctified in the wife , ergo. now the major with mr. ms. and mr. bls. exposition hath this sense , they may live together whereof one is sanctified by the faith of the other for the begetting a holy seed , for so they expound the apostle . but according to them the vnbelieving fornicator is sanctified by the believing fornicatrix for the begetting a holy seed , which is confessed by them . by mr. bl. here , when he saith , the issue of tamar , jephtha's mother , the harlot at gaza were holy federally : and for the major there is no necessity of putting in [ husband and wife ] sith as mr. bl. saith p , . the stress is wholly laid upon the believing party , as to the holiness of the issue , and here , i dare yeeld , saith he , that any man and woman may live together , notwithstanding any fear of the unholiness of their issue ; where one is sanctified by the faith of another to the begetting of an holy seed . now put all these together . the apostle argues the believer may live with the unbeliever , because the one is sanctified in the other , and this sanctifying is according to mr. ms. and mr. bls. exposition for the begetting a holy seed , and this begetting of a holy seed according to mr. bl. is ascribed wholly to the faith of the one parent , it 's a result or fruit of the parents faith whether married or unmarried , therefore according to mr. bls. exposition of the apostle , ●he lawfulness of living together is deduced from th●t which doth as well ag●ee to fornicators as the married , and consequently ●he lawfulness of living together in fornication is inferred from the apostles reason as mr. bl. and mr. m. and others expound it as well as of husband and wife . it is true i would not allow another to leave [ husband and wife ] exprest in the text out of the argument framed by me according to my exposition , which is the apostles meaning as i conceive , because i lay the whole stress upon those terms , and still contend that no persons are sanctified one in or to another but the husband and wife , and that these are so sanctified , whether one or both or neither are believers . but if i frame the reason according to mr. ms. mr. bls. and others interpretation of the apostle , i am to be allowed to leave them out , sith by them no stress is laid on the husband and wife or conjugal relation , but the faith of one party . that there was any such fear of non-federation of issue , or supposition of it in the corinthians if they livid together cannot be evinced from the text , but the contrary is manifest by the arguing from the uncleanness of their children , as an absurdity in their apprehensions , and the holiness of them as a thing known and certain to them , as the particle [ else ] shews : and therefore that the apostle shews that the feared and supposed non-federation doth not conclude the unlawfulness , is but a fiction , nor doth the apostle make any such distinction between concluding the lawfulness , and the not concluding the unlawfulness , between which if there bee any distinction ( which yet i perceive not ) yet it is certain that the words v. , . let him not put her away , let her not leave him , are a positive resolution of the lawfulness of their continuing together in marriage society , and the reason shews v. . that the doubt was of the believers conjunction with the unbeliever , because he was an unsanctified person , and consequently the reason of the doubt was not the fear of the non-federation of issue but the unlawfulness of marriage society with an infidel unsanctified : and consequently it is a monstrous addition which mr. bl. seems to put either into the conclusion thus , let her not leave him if this be all the fear the non-federation of issue , or in the reason , they may live together whereof one is sanctified by the faith of the other party , so as that there is no fear of the non federation of their issue , there being nothing in the text for this addition . yet if it were put in it will justifie my odious inference as hee terms it . for let the major be thus after mr. bls. minde , they may live together whereof one is sanctified by the faith of the other , so as there is no fear of non-federation of their issue , the minor is thus expresly after mr bls. minde ; but the unbelieving fornicatrix is sanctified by the faith of the believing fornicator , so as that there is no fear of non-federation of their issue , ergo they may live together according to mr. bl. and consequently mr. bl. blasphemously by his exposition makes the apostle justifie the living together of a believer with an unbeliever in fornication ; which is enough to shew the falshood of that exposition , yea and of any other which ascribes the sanctified●ess v. . ( which is the reason of their lawful living together , v. , . ) to the faith of the one party , and not to the conjugal relation . the rest of mr. bls. talk of my willingness to have him waste his time , his falling on my sapless tree , the readiness of his axe , his pains in applying it , is vain and frivolous talk , sith the tree still stands after all his hacking and hewing at it , and his axe appears to bee very blunt , or else he strikes besides the tree . as for my sixe years space , mr. bl. might have understood that the reason of my not publishing the first part of my review till . six years after the printing of apology , was ( besides my constant labours and extraordinary publike and private employments ) from the necessity of my removing my dwelling from the temple to bewdley , from bewley to ledbury , thence to lemster , besides my frequent flittings by reason of the wars , travels to regain my plundered goods , difficulty to get my treatise printed , the variety of antagonists i had to answer , which is yet the reason of my slowness in publishing this part of the review , and comes from the venemous spirit of such as mr. bl. mr. b. and other paedobaptists , who would never comply with me in the fair motion in the epilogue of my examen to joyn together in a brotherly way of ventilating the point , but what they can bait me with calumnies tending to discredit me as covetous , arrogant , &c. with multitude of replies , and magnifying them though frivolous , vilifying my writings that men might not reade them , and discern the truth , nor book-sellers be willing to print or sell them , stirring up parliaments and rulers to remove those of our way , out of all places which have publike salary , that our hands may be weakned ; which i may truly call wicked practises , of which too many of them have been guilty , and for which god will judge them . i go on . mr. bl. sect . . to my argument against his instrumental sanctification , that barren persons cannot be said to be instrumentally sanctified for producing an holy seed pressed by me in the . part of this review p. , . sect . : saith thus , and i will appeal to any , yea the meanest christian , whether persons that have children born in wedlock bonds , in such disparity may not have their fears and scruples about them , notwithstanding others in the same condition of marriage are childless , or unable to bring forth children ? whether the seed which came of those marriages ezra . . were not unclean , notwithstanding many so married had no children ; many of the priests had herein transgrest , and it was but some of them had wives by whom they had children , ezra . . all which i grant , but there is not a jot in all this which answers my objection ▪ that the barren by accident or nature could not bee said to bee sanctified to produce an holy seed , and yet the reason of the apostle must bee conceived to reach to the proof of the lawfulness of their living together in disparity of religion as well as the fruitful , and therefore the sanctifying must be expounded in another sense then mr. bls. which agrees not to their case . but hee adds . and because this is the medium for proof of the apostles determination , v. ● . that they might live together , pag. . hee will have it to be from a future contingent ; but when this is no medium for proof of the apostles determination , as hath been sufficiently sh●wn it is not , this fals with the other . answ. that it hath been sufficiently shewn that the first part of v. . is not a medium for proof of the apostles determination , is said without any colour of truth . all the reason i finde given is , v. . is not a formal reason , ergo , neither v. . to which answer hath been given by denying both the antecedent and the consequence , it is a formal reason though not ●s mr. bl. frames it , and if it were not , yet the term [ for , else , but now ] being argumentative terms , shew there is formal reasoning v. . v. . and the producing an holy seed being a contingent event , if the apostle should , as mr. bls. exposition makes him , prove their lawful living together , because the unbeliever is sanctified instrumentally to produce an holy seed , hee should argue from an uncertain event , which chamier tom . . paustr. cath. lib. . chap. . sect . . disapproved in another case , as i shew in my examen pag. ● . to my argument against instrumental sancti●●cation , that it cannot be meant o● it , sith the barren cannot bee said to bee gods instrument , ●or that always effects , and when god sanctifies hee specially designes some , whereas this is common to all husbands and wives , and the unbeliever is said to bee sanctified , whereas it is the believer according to them who is the instrument of producing a holy seed . mr. bl. saith , i am sure they bring ●orth children unto god , ezek . . . and this they do not independently of themselves , so christ would not have warned matth. . . call no man father upon earth , for one is your father who is in heaven . all natural parents are instruments of god to produce a seed to people the world , according to that blessing of gen. . . gen. . . bee fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth ; all believing parents are instruments of god for an holy seed , it being of his free grace that the promise is to them and their seed . answ. what is said ezek. . . was said onely of israelites and those manifest idolaters as well as true believers , and the words do import no more but this , that the israelites children were born of right to him , that is , to be at his disposal for his service , levit. . . because hee brought them out of egypt , and therefore it was unjust in them to alienate them from him by offering them to idols , which is not to be said of the corinthian believers children . matth. . . is as impertinently alledged , for it speaks not of gods being a father in respect of natural generation , nor forbids calling any man a father in that respect , but in that manner in which the jews termed their teachers fathers and themselv●s their children , in respect of absolute subjection of their consciences to their dictates , as diodati rightly in his annot . this teacheth the believers not to yeeld that absolute reverence , nor power over their consciences to any living man which belongeth to god onely , as ignorant people did use to do to the pharisees . if a●l natural parents be instruments of god to people the world , yet mr. bl. will not say they are instruments to produce a holy seed to peo●le the church for the● all children and not believers onely should b●e fede●ally holy : so t●at all this is meerly impertinent . that all believing parents are instruments of god for an holy seed , is said without proof , there being no such promise to them and their seed produced , nor if there were did it follow they were all federally holy in mr. ●ls . sense : but were this g●anted , yet it is no●hing to prove the unbelieving parent to bee gods instrument to produce a holy seed , who is said , and not the believer to bee sanctified , and that signanter considered as an unbeliever , much less every unbelieving wife though b●rren who hath a believing husband , much less to bee specially designed for that end , and therefore the sanctification instrumental which master bl. conceives meant corinth . . . is quite besides the apostles meaning . mr. bl. goes on thus of me , the d . argument he hath in his apol. p. . where he says that the apostles proposition understood of federal holiness were most certainly false , giving in his reason , for many children of both unbelieving parents are federally holy ; he saith that i answer , they are not so at their birth . my answer is , if afterwards by grace they are changed ; this is no fruit of their birth ( of which the question is in this place ) but the work of the gospel through grace , mr. t. says , this is nothing to the purpose , sith the proposition hath not those words in it , nor the apostle ; the apostles reason supposeth it cannot be at any time ; it seems then that the apostles proposition hath this in it , that their children so born cannot bee clean at any time , or else mr. t. his exception is less to purpose , who does not see that the apostle speaks of uncleanness or holiness , as as a product of their birth without consideration of any thing which after by providence ( through the omnipotence and free grace of god ) might happen , as a mean woman given in marriage to a senator or peer , she is enobled by her husband , otherwise her issue were plebeians ▪ yet so as they are capable of honour by the princes munificence , or their own merit ; it seems that proposition of christs , that which is born of the flesh is flesh , joh. . . will not hold , unless it must for ever continue flesh , and no omnipotence of god shall be able to make it otherwise . answ. it is true that it seems to me the apostles proposition hath this in it , that their children born unclean cannot be clean at any time , and i grant that the apostle speaks of uncle●nness or holiness as a product of their birth or generation , without consideration of any thing which after by providence ( through the omnipotence and free grace of god ) might happen and therefore of illegitimation and legitimation by birth , and not of federal holiness which is no product of birth , and yet that proposition , that which is born of the flesh is flesh ▪ joh ▪ . . will hold , though after the person born after the flesh be made spirit or spiritual , there being no contradiction in this , that the person born after the flesh should become spiritual in his qualities , but it is impossible that that which hath been illegitimate in birth , should not be illegitimate in birth , i● be●ng a thing past , and therefore cannot by god be made not a thing past , or not done , for then it should be true that a thing hath been at birth , and hath not been , been and not been , which is a contradiction . mr. bl saith , i farther add , and yet it may be certain that the child of two unbelievers may be federally holy at birth , whether it bee understood of election , inherent holiness or outward holiness , if god please to work and declare it , i would mr t would speak , whether there were ever any such a thing a● the child of two unbelievers , at the instant of their birth , declared of god to bee of those whom hee took ●o bee federally holy , and of the number of his covenant people , let that proposition stand till god by such a miracle confute or contradict it . answ. . though i could not speak there was such a thing , yet it is enough for me to shew that and how it might be . . i doubt not but many a captive woman gotten w●th child by an infidel , and she her self an infidel , hath been delivered in abrahams house , and those children were in mr. ●ls . sense federally holy at the instant of their birth , for for they were , if males , capable of circumcision on the eighth day , according to the law , gen. . , . and this is to be federally holy according to mr. bls. doctrine , who makes all to be in the covenant at their birth who are capable by reason of their birth of the sign of the covenant . he yet saith . mr. t. adds , but the issue of them that are not lawfully conjoyned as husband and wife cannot be made legitimate by god , because it is contrary to the definition of legitimation , which is a state consequent upon birth by the lawfull copulation of lawfull husband and wife . this must conclude for his interpretation and against ours , because god by his omnipotence can make our unclean ones holy , and to make his unclean ones holy , is without the verge of omnipotence : if we should put case in mr. t. his manner , that god should appear in approbation of a mans enjoying a woman out of marriage society , then there were a legitimation of the issue , as he did the marriage of the brothers wife , deut. . . otherwise against the moral law , levit. . . answ. it concludes for me if it be true ( which mr. bl. disproves not ) that the holiness is meant cor. . . which cannot be without the sanctification there spoken of , and mr. bls. holiness may be without his sanctification , and the proposition is true of no other holiness but that which i assign . if the definition of legitimation be a state of birth from parents generating in lawfull marriage , though god should approve of a mans enjoying a woman out of marriage society , there were no legitimation of the issue , and yet the marriage deut. . . were lawfull , and the issue legitimate . i am sorry mr. bl. hath tyred himself and me with so many impertinent words , which have shaken nothing of my fabrick : i am glad i am so near an end with him , and pass from him to mr. sydenham , who in the th . ch . of his exercit. thus speaks , the scope of the apostle here is to hold forth some special gospel priviledge annexed to the state : and he frames his argument by no ordinary medium , of the lawfulness of the marriage according to a natural , moral , or positive rule ; but a majori , from an eminent advantage they had together in the gospel . for . the unbelieving husband is sanctified in , or to , or by the wife . . the children in such a state are holy , as if they had been both believers . answ. the scope of the apostle , cor. . , , . can be no other then the resolving of the doubt in the corinthians , which mr. sydenham truly saith he answered , v. , . and then gives , v. . an argument to prove it . now therein is no speeial gospel priviledge held forth ; for . if any priviledge be there assigned it is to the unbeliever remaining an unbeliever , for he is said to be sanctified ▪ but sure an unbeliever ▪ remaining an unbeliever hath no special gospel priviledge ; ergo. . the unbeliever is put there , not to shew any meliority of condition to himself , but to take away the doubt which was concerning him , as defiling their society : so that the meaning is not , the unbeliever is a gainer by his wife , but the unbeliever brings no damage to her in respect of the thing in doubt concerning the lawfulness of continuing together in marriage use by his unbelief ; there is no advantage mentioned to either of them , but a determination that there is not that disadvantage from the one as necessitated to leave the other . nor is there any thing that carries the shew of an argument a majori : the apostle doth no● say , they have an eminent advantage together in the gospel , therefore much more may live together . yea , such an argument had been far from being strong , there being no arguments usually weaker then such , if any disparity may be shewed they are quickly enervated . and in this thing the proposition would have been false upon which such an argument must turn as its hinge , to wit , they that have an eminent advantage together in the gospel may much the rather live together . for . it would have been from that which is meerly extrinsecal and accidental to marriage society , gospel priviledges neither establishing nor dissolving marriage society , which is lawfull as well among them who have no gospel priviledge as those that have . . the proposition were false , for then if the unbelieving whore have gospel advantage ( as i conceive mr. s. will not deny any more then other paedobaptists do ) by the believing fornicator , they may live together ; so that if the fornicator being a believer beget a holy child on an unbelieving whore , or what ever other gospel priviledge it is the unbeliever hath by the believer , imagine to cast out devils in christs name , though she be not joyned to the church , to prophesie in christs name , or to do wonders , by this gospel priviledge they are allowed to live together in fornication : which are monstrous absurdities following mr. ss. conceit . but he tels us . that the apostle holds out a gospel priviledge , not common to meer unbelievers in their marriage state is clear ; . so●eza ●eza affirms , that in two special copies he finds the words thus read , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : neither can it hold sense with the former words , but as thus read : and if it had not been the apostles proper meaning to shew the special priviledge the believing party hath notwithstanding the unbeliever , he would have ●nely said , the husband is sanctified to the wife , and the wife to the husband ; that would have been the plainest and least ambiguous expression of such a sentence : and the apost●e would never have made an argument of four terms ▪ when three could onely satisfie ; for all know , that an argument with four terms is most deceitfull and false . answ. the reason hath no strength in it , the apostle puts the advantage on the believers side , ergo the apostle holds out a gospel priviledge not common to meer unbelievers in their marriage state . for there may be expr●ssed an advantage on the believers side , as suppose her liberty , her quiet of conscience , &c. and yet the thing from whence it is inferred no gospel priviledge , but a thing common to unbelievers , as in case , a b●liever doubt of the lawfull eating of an infidels meat offered to an idol , and i● be resolved as the apostle doth cor. . , , . from the right god hath to all creatures , here is the advantage on the believers side , the quiet of his conscience , and yet no gospel priviledge held forth but such as is common to unbelievers , the lawfull eating of what was sold in the shamble● . . mr. ss. antecedent , that the apostle puts the advantage on the believers side , and there fixeth it , is contrary to what he said before , that the argument is from an eminent advanta●e they had together in the gospel ; for if they had the eminent advantage together , it was no mor● put or fixed on the believers side then on the unbelievers . . it is so far from being true that the apostle puts the advantage on the believers side , that it is true rather on the contrary , if any advantage be exprest it is put on the unbelievers side , for the unbeliever is said to be sanctified not the believer . . it is not true that the unbelieving wife is sanctified in the husband as believing , and that which mr. sydenham alledgeth to prove it is of no force . for the reading in two copies is not sufficient to countervail the multitude of copies which have it otherwise , it being more likely that the addition of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was made by some scribe then by the apostle at first , who v. . used 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without it . and for the sense it holds ●s good sense without it as it did v. . the unbeliever is mentioned not to shew a special priviledge to the believer , but because the occasion of the doubt was from his infidelity , and therefore that could not be omitted without omitting that in which was the force of the objection , which could not be distinctly satisfied without mentioning it ; and by putting it in there are not four terms , as unskilfully mr. s. intimates , but by omitting it there come to be four terms , the conclusion to be proved being this , the wife may live with her unbelieving husband , and the premises these , that wife may live with her husband who is sanctified to her , but so is the unbelieving husband to his wife , ergo. but of this the reader may see more at large the first part of this review , sect . . . saith mr. s. the apostle doth use higher terms and phrases in this argument , then is ever used in scripture to express a meer lawfull or common priviledge ; as to be sanctified in the wife , and the children to be holy ; expressions of another dialect then to hold forth a civil or natural , or legal conjunction : being singled out in scripture , to hold forth the best state of persons in relation to god and his use . answ. . were all this true , as it is not , yet mr. ss. conclusion is not proved thereby . for though the terms should never express a meer lawfull or common priviledge , a civil or natural , or legal conjunction , and that they are singled ●ut in scripture to hold forth the b●st sta●● of persons in relation to god and his use ; yet it follows not the apostle holds out by them a gospel priviledge , sith they may hold out a jewish priviledge , which is not a gospel , but r●ther a legal priviledge , as the term [ holy seed ] doth ezra . . . h●w fi●ly these terms sute to the exposition i give without holding forth a gospel priviledge , may be seen in my examen part . . sect . . in the first part of t●is review , sect . , , , , . mr. s. adds , . that the term unclean notes the same it doth acts . . where cornelius being a gentile without the pale of the jewish church , is called common and unclean , as all the gentiles were before they came under the promise , he was no bastard , he was without the church just in the same phrase with the apostle here ▪ when he saith that children are not unclean , he must needs mean they are not of common use or to be excluded from outward priviledges of the church . . that [ unclean ] is used for legal pollutions and uncleannesses , which made men to be separated from the congregation , and excommunic●ted from the priviledge of ordinances untill they were washed and sanctified : thus in levit . , , . ch . . . & . , . isa. ● . . hag . . with many other places , where unclean is opposed to a present suitable capacity for church priviledges . answ. in all those places , levit. . , , & . . & . , . hag. . . isa. . . the uncleanness is not opposed to a gosp●l priviledge , but a legal or jewish , nor were the unclean out of the covenant or the people of god even when they were unclean , and therefore if ● cor. . . he should tell them their children were not unclean in that sense , he should not tell them of a gospel priviledge , but a judaical legal mosaical priviledge , which had been both false for they were uncircumcised gentiles , and therefore were unclean in that sense , and vain to tell them of that as a priviledge , which was no priviledge , but which hee counts nothing of cor. . . . cornelius is not termed unclean as wanting a gospel priviledge , he was in covenant with god and accepted with him ▪ and in the visible church , sith acts● ● . . but he is termed unclean as one not mee● by reason of his uncircumcision for a jew to go into , or eat with acts . and therefore if the apostle should cor. . . mean it just in the same sense with acts . . he should tell them their children w●re not unclean , that is , were persons with whom they might ea● and converse which understood of infants were ridiculous ●f meant in the ●ense god tearmed cornelius clean , then it is as unfitly appl●ed to infants , who are not clean as cornelius , in that fearing god and working righteousness he wa● accepted with him , acts. . , . which is more th●n an ou●wa●d church priviledge and a 〈◊〉 thing then mr. s. and his ●ellow paedobaptist conceive the apostle meant cor. . . that which mr. s. brings of the use of the word holy that it ex●resseth the heb●ew word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and that it ever signif●es that which is appropriated to a divine use , and that it is the 〈◊〉 notion of holiness in the old and new testament , and never taken otherwise : and that for proof of it he hath compared a●ove ● . places in the old ●esta●ent ●ccording to the septuagint , and all the n. t. places where the word is gener●lly taken in scripture to express a separation of things to god how false or insufficient it is to his purpose , is so a●ply shewed in the first part of 〈◊〉 review sect . , ● , , , , , . that i conceiv●● 〈…〉 this time to add any more . in which place● it may be seen what i grant concerning the word generally taken , and 〈…〉 more places th●n tim. . . thes. . , , . for another use then mr. s. asserts ▪ to bee the proper notion of holy in the old and n. t. that it notes that which is appropriated to divine use , and is never taken otherwise , to shew it to bee taken otherwise , as sam. . . isai. . . ezra . , &c. but let 's view what hee saith to my allegation of tim. . . thes. . , , . for a different use from his sense . from tim. . . saith mr. t. is meant onely the lawful use of the creature in opposition to what is to be refused . it is a wonder , but that god leaves men to blindness when they leave truth , how any man of common understanding , finding the word holy and sanctified alwayes used in a religious sense , should flye to this place to make an exception answ. i have so far as i thought needful looked into my former writings , and do not finde any place where i say as mr. s. here saith i do , what i yeelded at the dispute at bewdley , and for what reason is shewed in the first part of this review sect . . p. . and if mr. s. took from mr. b. this which he here so unbrotherly chargeth me with , hee might have there found an answer , which should have been taken notice o● , if my answer printed . came to his knowledge afore the publishing his exercit. . but i never could finde in my antagonists mr. b. m. ●l &c. any such candor as to construe any thing that came from me , since this controversie arose between us , in the better part , but i think i may say almost in every thing i have done or said that th●y mention , they pervert my words and deeds , and aggravate them in the worser sense , when they might have had a good or at least excusable construction . as for this thing which mr. s. here makes an instance of gods leaving me to blindness when i left truth , the true state of it is thus . i had said in my examen part . . sect . . p. , ▪ that this may be the sense , i gather from the like use of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 used tim. . . where the creature of god is said to be sanctified , that is lawfully used in opposition to that which is to be refused ; so here the unbelieving husband is sanctified , that is lawfully enjoyed as a husband by , or to , or in respect of his wife , whether believer , or unbeliever , in this case there is no difference , and alledged some words of mr. m. in his sermon p. . to the same purpose . which when mr. m. in his defence p. . framed an argument from against me , i shewed him his mistake in the first part of this review sect . . p. . denying the sanctification cor. . . to bee such a sanctification as that place tim. . . means , but onely make them like thus far , that as tim. . . it signifies lawfully enjoyed , so here , though in a different manner , and from a different reason or cause . and for the concession in the dispute at bewdley ▪ my yeilding mr. bs. conclusion doth prove that mr. s. doth here falsely charge mee to say that tim. . . is meant onely the lawful use of the creature . nor is it true that i fled to this place to make an exception against the taking the word holy in a religious sense . for neither did i make use of tim. . . about the sense of the word holy , but the word sanctified , nor do i conceive the word sanctified used in any other then a religious sense , yea i have often said that [ sanctified ] cor. . . is taken for religiously sanctified , as cor. . . as baptised , cor. . . mother , mark . . dead , heb. . . made himself eunuch , matth. . . son , exod. . . and many more places , the words are taken in their proper notion , onely they are applied in a limited sense , or in some respect by an impropriety or abuse of speech to those to whom absolutely and in propriety or exactness of speech they do not belong , and therefore this which mr. s. here suggests of me is but his calumny which he was willing to take up that through my sides he might wound the truth . but mr. s. adds . the apostle saith first , every creature which god hath made is good in it self , and none to be refused : that is , all may be lawfully used without any legal pollution as formerly : but then he goes higher , speaking of a religious use of outward things , they are sanctified by the word and prayer ; they are all good and lawfull in their use to every man ; but they are onely sanctified by these holy means , the word and prayer . and he might have as well said , that the word and prayer are not holy means , but onely lawfull to be used ; as that the sanctification which is by the word and prayer , is to make the creatures onely lawfull to be used . if a wicked man ea● his meat without seeking a blessing on it , or giving thanks , will any one say that he hath not a lawfull use of the creature ? but any man may say , it 's not sanctified to him . the apostle in these ver . goes on gradatim by degrees , from a lawfull use to a holy use of the creatures ; all is good and may be used , but they are sanctified by the word and prayer . thus you see the nature of this priviledged place . answ. what word it is which is meant tim. : . whether the word of gods power creating them , which the words v. . which god hath created for receiving seem to lead to , or the word of gods declaration , whether by our lord christ , mark . . or to peter , acts . . or promise of blessing , it is manifest that the apostle in that place doth not make any distinction between a sanctified and a lawfull use , nor doth he say they are created for any to be received but with thanksgiving of them who believe and know the truth ; nor doth he make the creature good or not to be refused but being received with thanksgiving , nor sanctified but by the word of god and prayer : nor do i find but that interpreters take lawfull use and sanctified for the same . so beza in his annot. it is made holy , to wit , in respect of us , so as that we may use it with a good conscience ▪ as duly received from the hand of god. for other men do enjoy it no otherwise then as thieves and sacriledgious persons goods usurped . and he lawfully useth goods , who acknowledgeth and invocat●th the giver of them after his word . piscat . anal . he minds which is the lawfull and allowed use of meats , to wit , when we receive them with thanksgiving and prayer proceeding from faith ▪ diodati , dicson , and others speak to like purpose . nor is there any thing here that intimates any gradation from a lawfull use v. , . to a sanctified use v. . for v. , . to the receiving of them thanksgiving is required of them that believe and know the truth , and the creature is not said to be good and nothing to be refused but being taken with thanksgiving , which is the same with sanctified by the word and prayer , v. . and v. . is a reason of that which is said v. . and therefore no gradation or rising higher , as mr. s. imagines ▪ which i do not produce to shew that i conceive no distinction between a lawful use and a holy use of things ( which i do acknowledge in the first part of this review p. . and elsewhere ) but onely to shew how insufficiently mr. s. opposeth me , whom he so severely censures , even in that which i spake rightly enough , and his own blindness made him to judge hardly of me , as left by god to blindness . mr. s. saith further , but the main place mr. t. alledgeth for holiness to be used for what is barely civil or lawful , is that thes. . , , . here uncleanness is taken , saith he , for fornication , and holiness for chastity . to which i answer with mr. m. that chastity among the heathens is never called sanct●fication , but among believers it is , being a part of the new crea●i●n , and one branch and part of their sanctification wrought by the spirit of god. and though mr. t. sai●h this is but a shift , yet he shall see it demonstrative , if he observe the phrases in the text , and the nature of sanctification : in the and . v. the apostle beseecheth and exhorteth them to walk as they had received from him how to walk and to please god according to the rules of jesus christ ; and he urgeth it in v. with this ; it 's the will of god , even your sanctification , that is , that you should walk in all holiness , sutable to the blessed rules of the gospel , and as one part and expression of holiness , to abstain from sin : and he instanceth specially in fornication , which was the common and reigning sin among the gentiles : so that if you view the place you shall find , that . he speaks of sanctification in general , in it's full latitude v. . as sutable to all the will and mind of god ; this is the will of god , even your sanctification ; that is , it is gods command , and gods delight to see you sanctified : then he brings in abstinence from fornication ( the sin of the times ) as one part of that holiness god requires : for sanctification may be considered as it lies in vivification , or in mortification , which for distinctions sake we we may call the two parts of sanctification . now chastity in it self , as in the heathens and natural men , is not properly a part of sanctification ; some other epi●hite becomes it better : would mr. t. call all the abstinencies and actings of the heathens by the name of sanctifications , and speak like a christian and a divine ? would it be proper to say in his pulpit ( when he was speaking of the nature of holiness and chastity ) sanctified socrates , holy aristides ? and can he think the apostle would express that which is common among heathens , in such a high gospel dialect as sanctification is appropriated always in scripture to god , angels , saints , and their highest graces and workings , and to things raised above common use , dedicated to god and his service , but that he meant it according as the whole tenure of scripture defines holiness ? how much will the phrase of holiness and sanctification be debased and made common , if that sense should be admitted , contrary to the scripture use of the word ? but that is a weak cause that puts men to such extraordinary shifts to maintain . answ. it 's the property of some persons , like thersites in homer , to speak much and to performe little , and so it befals mr. s. here . he saith , . i alledge thes. . , , . as the main place for holiness to be used for what is barely civil or lawfull , whereas i alledge it not as mr. s. saith , but to shew that it is not true which mr. m. said , that holiness is always taken in a sacred sense , for a separation of persons and things from common to sacred uses . . though i say , mr. ms. answer to be but a shift , yet i shall see it demonstrative , if i observe the phrases in the text , and the nature of sanctification . but if all should be yeelded , that thes. . , ▪ . holiness were but a part of the new creation , that chastity in heathens is never called sanctification ; yet this were but a shift to avoid the proof against mr. ms. assertion , that holiness is always taken in a sacred sense for a separation of persons and things from common to sacred uses ; for the chastity of regenerate persons , confessed to be term●d holiness and a part of sanctification , is not taken in a sacred sense for separation from common to sacred uses : but of this more may be seen in the first part of this review , sect . . pag. . and as for mr. ss. reasoning , it is far from demonstrative , it being indeed against himself . for if v. , . be an exhortation to please god in general , and v . express one part and expression of holiness to abstain from sin , and no other sin be named but fornication , he doth particularly term abstaining from fornication holiness ; which is more fu●ly confirmed v. . where chastity is termed possessing our vessel in holiness and honour , opposite to possessing our vessel ( that is our body ) in the lust of concupiscence as the gentiles , among whom fornication was frequent , and this is v. . termed uncleanness , and the opposite to it holiness , that is chastity . and for the other thing , that chastity in it self as in the heathens and natural men is not properly a part of sanctification , and that sanctity is ascribed to the highest things , it is but frivolous . for though it be no part of true sanctification , yet it may be termed holiness , as there be many called gods who are not the true and everliving god , to whom though the term [ god ] do properly belong onely , yet magistrates and angels are sometimes termed gods without any debasement , and though i would not in my pulpit without distinction term magistrates , angels gods , or call an unlawfull assembly of idolaters a church , yet who knows not the term elohim , and ecclesia or church to be applied to them ? so that however mr. s. prattle of his demonstration and of the weakness of my cause and extraordinary shifts , yet this is but frivolous talk without any performance . he adds . but to go on a little further ; the same word is used by the apostle in all his salutations and inscriptions of his epistles to all the churches ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the saints or holy ones at rome , at corinth , galatia , ephesus , &c. which when appropriated to persons , always signifies a visible saint : so here when he calls children of believing parents holy , he cannot but mean , they are to be accounted as visible saints , until they do profess the contrary : and i know no reason can be given , why the meaning of the apostle in his epistles , when he writes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to the saints , should not be as well understood written onely to the legitimate , and those that are not bastards a● rome , corinth , &c. as well as for them to interpret the same word so in this place : for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when applied to grown men , must signifie visible and evangelical holiness , and must be translated saints ▪ but when applied to children , it must onely signifie legitimacy , that they are not bastards ; when all men know , that magis & minus non variant speciem ; and the word is of the same import in every place of the new testament . answ. it is not true , that the same term is used by the apostle in all his salutations and inscriptions of his epistles to all the churches , it is not used in the epistles to the galatians and thessalonians ; and in the titles where it is appropriated to persons , signifies a saint called , sanctified in christ jesus , faithfull , which rather note an invisible then a visible saint : and if they do note a visible saint , they note one by calling , sanctified in christ , believer in profession , none of which are to be ascribed to infants of believers as such , nor can be meant cor. . . where children are termed holy by birth , not by calling ; and are not said to be holy in christ , but in respect of their parents . whence apparent reason is given , why the term [ holy ] in the titles of the epistles cannot be translated legitimate in opposition to bastardy , but saints , or men who are set apart for god by the love of god , and therefore termed beloved of god , rom. . . and the sanctification of the spirit by the gospel : and on the other side , why [ holy ] cor. . . cannot be translated saints , or visible saints , not for that frivolous conceit of mr. s. as if they might not be termed saints cor. . . for want of age ; whose gross application of a logick rule , shews he was but a smatterer therein : for if visible saintship had been given to elder persons in respect of grown age , and denied to infants , yet there had been no variation of kind from more or less growth , saintship being not the species or kind of such persons , but humanity . and what he saith , that the word is of the same import in every place of the new testament , it is so false a speech , and so ill beco●ming him that said , p. . he had compared all the places in the new testament where the word is used , that no other excuse but of heedlesness or forgetfulness can acquit him from deceit . for besides the places alledged , luke . . pet. . . &c. and his own distinctions of federal and inherent holiness , together with the holiness intentional meant rom. . . shew it to be false . what he adds , by the same reason we account grown men holy , we may account infants of believers ; for these that make a profession , may have no inward and inherent holiness ; and a bare profession is not holiness ; we onely account them holy by a judicious charity ; and we are often deceived , and have cause to repent of our judgements : ●nfants may be inwardly sanctified , and god hath taken them into covenant with their parents , and would have us look on them as separated to himself , which is ground enough to build our charity on , as to esteem them holy , as grown persons . there is no difference but this in it ; that concerning the holiness of persons at age , we trust our own judgements ; and in judging of infants we trust gods word , who hath comprehended them under the promise with their parents ; there hath been as many deceits in the event in our judgement of those of riper years , as in that which is acted through a mixture of faith on infants . and gods promise , though never so indefinite , is a surer ground for hope then my probable judgement ; which is the most i can have of the generality of professors of ripe years , is much of it false , as that god hath taken infants into covenant with their parents , thay are comprehended under the promise with their parents , god would have us to look on them as separated to himself , by the same reason we account grown men holy we may account infants of believers , we onely account them holy by a judicious charity , and all impertinent , forasmuch as professors of faith are accounted visible saints not by a judgement of charity , but of certainty from their profession which is visible , and so are qualified for baptism , not from hopes of real holiness , or faith of covenant holiness , which do not entitle to baptism without certainty of profession . what he adds . that holy is a pure religious word , that in my sense it would be no considerable medium for argumentation , that else were , &c. hath force from the specialness of the priviledge to their issue to be in a peculiar state of seperation to god , visible churchmembers with the believing parent , contains nothing but unproved dictates often before refuted . what he adds of cold comfort in my sense , and of strength and sweetness in his , is alike frovolous . for the speech of the apostle was to be no otherwise consolatory , then so far as it might satisfie their consciences of the lawfulness of their continuing together , which is clearly done by my analysis and exposition of the apostle , and not done at all by his way . for what is a priviledge of the children which perhaps they shall never have ; or if they have , it is nothing to take away the defilement by the infidel for satisfaction of their consciences concerning living together in disparity of religion ? i have done with this scribler : i shall a little examine what some others have said ; with as much brevity as the maintenance of the truth will permit , and hasten to an end . sect . lxxvii . mr. william carters attempt of proving the christian sabbath from heb. . , , . is shewed to be succesless , and so useless for proof of infant baptism . there is a treatise intituled , the covenant of god with abraham opened by mr. william carter , which pretends to clear the duty of infant baptism , and in his epistle to the reader saith , the root of this matter is the covenant of god with abraham ; which because of the eminency of the author , and the publishing it in observance ( as is said ) of the commands of the lord mayor , aldermen , and sheriffs of the city of london , rather then for any shew of strength in the discourse , i shall examine , that if this review come to their hands , they also may discern their mistakes . which i think necessary to be done , because he also ( as other paedobaptists use to do ) is not afraid upon his own conjectures ( for they are no better ) to charge us who baptize not infants as breaking abrahams covenant , as small friends to christs kingdome , waving and neglecting the right way of increasing that kingdome , and of exalting his throne and power in the world , taking-up ways unnatural , unsafe and false . let●s then see what he writes . afore he meddles with the point of infant baptism ( which he saith is the thing he especially intended in his discourse ) he endeavours to deduce the christian sabbath , as it is termed , from heb. . i omit that he saith , p. . that heb. . , . the birthright vendible is their priviledges in the church , and worship of the gospel , and that p. . he expound● the holding ●ast ●he confidence or liberty and the rejoycing of the hope , heb. . . by holding fast the ordinances and priviledges of the gospel : which if he mean ( as he seems to do ) of the o●twar● priviledges and worship , it appears that he mistakes , sith the birthright not to be sold , and the confidence and rejoycing of hope are greater matters , which no hypocrite may attain to , and are plainly intimated heb. . , . to be the seeing of god , the attaining his grace , and the estate evangelical mentioned v. , , . which they might sell , though they never had it , by their apostacy from their profession of christ , through whom they were in expectation of it , at least in appearance . and in like manner the boldness , liberty , confidence , or r●joycing of their hope , must needs be of something yet attainable , and not to be attained without holding it to the end , v. , . and which no unbelievers could attain to ; which are not true of bare outward chu●ch priviledges and gospel worship , but of that salvation mentioned heb. ●● . the grace brought in the revelation of jesus christ. pet. . . whereby we are gods house , heb ▪ . . are partakers of christ , v. . but i shall insist somewhat on that he saith p. . that by to day if ye will hear his voice , in that psal. . . is meant the christian sabbath day , by whi●h he means the day which in the new testament is termed the lords day or first day in the week , which i conceive not right for these reasons . . the day , heb. . . i● a limited or definite day , and that must needs imply this meaning ; [ this is the day in which if ye hear his voyce and harden not your hearts , ye may enter into ●ods rest ; if ye do not this day , ye will come short . ] which if true , then ( as mr. c. expounds it ) though they should hear the voice of christ , and not harden their hearts on the week day , yet they should not enter into the rest promised , which i think will be counted absurd , and evacuate the hopes by all the week day lectures . . from h●b . . . i thus argue . to day , heb . . is the same with the space of time which i● called ●o day , v. . this is so evident in the text , that every one that re●ds the ●ext will easily perceive it , sith it is plain , that the calling it to day is meant ●f the calling it i● that place v. ● . and the words ▪ lest any of you be hardened ▪ shew it . but [ to day , heb. . ▪ ] is meant of any day ▪ o● every day wherein christians might exhort one another , therefore not restrained to the lords day : but either extended to t●e whole space of time they live on earth , or to any opportunity in any day whatsoever , whether week day or lords d●y , wherein they might exhort . b● comparing these plac●s with 〈◊〉 cor where it is said , [ now is the accepted time , now 〈◊〉 the d●y of salvation , ] which seem plainly to intimate the same day with that which is meant heb. . , . and that day being manifestly meant of the time wherein the embassadours for christ do beseech men to bee reconciled to god , cor. . . it is very probable or rather certain , that to day , heb. . , . & . . is not meant particularly the lords day or first day of the week , but any day of a mans life wherein the gospel of christ is preached , and reconciliation to god offered him ; and received by him . or as cameron . quaest . in epist. ad heb. . . that time which by the prophets and apostle is called the last dayes and fulness of time , which is the time of the messiah exhibited , not precisely the lords day or first day of the week . let us view mr. carters reasons for his conceit . first , it is evident that it is meant of a day of rest c●ap . , , . for if joshuah had given them rest , namely that rest of which david speaketh , then hee would not aftewards have spoken of another day , therefore of a day of rest i● must bee meant , else the apostles argument had not been concluding nor pertinent , because many other days might have afterwards been spoken off , although joshuah had given them all the rest that was ever to bee expected . answ. it is true that he authour of that epistle doth rightly gather from the word [ to day ] that there was another day of rest yet remaining for the people of god besides the seventh day rest , a●d the rest in the land o● canaan which they p●ssessed by joshuah ▪ s conduct , yet doth not imply that the day in which the word was spoken was the day of rest . but thus hee gathers it , these words were spoken by david many hundreds of years both after god sware in the wilderne●s they should not enter into his rest who believed not , and after joshuah had setled the posterity of the unbelievers in the land of canaan , and therefore the rest in the land of canaan is not that which is meant in davids speech , but there is implied a future day of rest to bee attained by believing in jesus the messiah . for david if it had been meant of the rest in canaan would not have spoken to them not to harden their hearts f●r fear of being excluded from gods rest . secondly , saith mr c. it is meant of such a rest as god can and sometimes doth swear in his wrath against his own people , who are his house , and the people of his pasture , that they shall not enter into it : this cannot bee said of what they enjoy in their personal in●erest by faith onely ; but as for the co●fort of his ordinances and sabbath . answ. to omit the unfitness of the expression , sith the comfort of gods ordinances and sabbath is a personal interest enjoyed by faith onely , it is not true , that what is said of the rest cannot bee meant of what the people of god enjoy in their personal interest by faith onely , because of gods oath . for that oath doth not imply that believers shall not enter into the rest , yea the apostles inference is to the contrary v , . sith some were not to enter in , others were to enter in , and sith god sware some should not , hee promised some should , and chap. . . sith some entred not through unbelief , others in whom the word is mixed with faith , ch . . . do enter in . and this is a good argument that the rest mentioned is not the christian sabbath day which is the first day of the week , sith they that believe not come short of it ; it 's a consequent upon the holding the boldness , confidence and rejoycing of our hope firm to the end ; it was then in promise to the hebrews , and remained to the people of god , who were to bee warned that they came not short of it ; where as the sabbath dayes rest was then in p●ssession , not to bee expected afterwards , but then in use when this epistle was written , and yet such as hypocrites , unbelievers , and apostats did in some sort enjoy as well as sincere persevering believers . thirdly , saith mr. c. that it is meant of a sabbath dayes rest , appeareth by the manner of the apostles arguing in this place , in as much as the apostle proveth it to be another day of rest , besides what was in use in the church before . another in opposition to the th . day sabbath , and that because david speaketh of it as a rest to bee entered into a long time after ; although the th . days rest was entered into from the beginning of the world , in as much as hee spake as it is heb. . , . implying a promise that some shall , though others shall not enter into it . now , sayes the apostle , this being spoken by the prophet david of a time then to come : and again , as heb. . , . over and beside the seventh dayes sabbath . now from this his manner of arguing it is evident , that he supposeth this day of which david speaketh , saying , to day if ye will hear his voice , to be a day of the same kinde as the seventh dayes sabbath was ; because else there had been no such opposition to bee made , nor would there have been place for an although , or a notwithstanding , in the case , as in v. . because any other rest might have also been entred into from the beginning of the world , as a believers personal rest by faith was ; but that which maketh the opposition is , that david speaketh of a sabbath dayes rest , to be entred into now a long time after , even in the times of the new testament , of which times that psal. . is a prophesie , as appeareth by the apostles application of it in this place , and thereupon hee concludes it to bee another day of rest remaining for us besides the seventh dayes rest . by this wee see that by to day if yee will hear his voice is not meant onely of a christians personal rest by faith , which is every days enjoyment , and was entred into from the beginning of the world , but of another sabbath dayes rest besides what was in use before . answ. it is not denied that psal . is a prophesie , nor that it speaks of a rest to be a long time after davids time , even in the times of the new testament , nor that [ although ] doth imply a distinct rest from the seventh day sabbath rest , and an opposition of that kinde which some logicians call disparato , though others will not have it called opposition but distinction ; yet the words heb. . are not as mr. c. cites them , [ although the seventh days rest was entred into from the beginning of the world ] but [ although the works were 〈◊〉 or finished from the foundation of the world . ] nevertheless , this doth not prove that either the rest is not a believers personal rest by faith , or that it is of the same kinde with a meer weekly sabbath dayes rest , but rather the contrary . it is distinguished from the seventh day sabbaths rest , and so it is also from the rest which the israelites had by joshuah's conduct in the land of canaan , which the authour mentions v. . as well as the seventh dayes rest v. . and therefore the seventh dayes rest opposed to the rest v. , . doth no more prove the day of rest to be a day of the same kinde , as the seventh day sabbath was then the day of rest in canaan by joshuahs leading . yea , sith the seventh days rest mentioned heb. . . is onely gods rest , it is apparent the day of rest is of different kinde from an ordinary sabbath dayes rest . neither doth the term [ although ] impart any such identity of kinde , but that god spake of another rest of his , athough hee had rested long ago when his works were finished from the foundation of the world . yea the words heb . . hee that is entred into his rest hath also ceased from his works as god did from his , ( which expresseth the rest for the people of god yet remaining v. . ) do shew that the day of rest is not till a mans works bee ceased , which i know not how to understand of any other works then his works of labour and sufferings , which are not till the end of this life ; and therefore the sabbatism or day of rest is not here the keeping of a weekly sabbath , but a day of rest , as is meant revel . . . which though it bee not every dayes enjoyment , yet it may bee a christians personal test by faith onely , that is that rest which by faith onely is entred into or obtained . and though it were entred into by all believers from the foundation of the world , yet it was not so conspicuously as when christ entred into the heavens ; however those hebrews and the believers to come after had not then entred into it . that the sabbath days rest was in use before , proves against mr. c. that the rest was not of the same kinde , unless in manner of a type or shadow , as one thing like that 's resembled by another may in a catachrestique manner be termed of the same kinde with that which resembles . mr. c. adds . fourthly it is meant of a day of rest to bee celebrated in gods house in his worship . so the apostle concludeth v. . there remaineth therefore a sabbatism 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the celebration of a sabbath for the people of god : a word comprehending the sabbath and worship put together as was before observed . and the coherence of the words psal. . implieth as much psal. . , , . it appeareth also from the apostles wherefore , chap. . . his house are we ; wherefore , as the holy ghost saith , to day if yee will hear his voyce , &c. so as if the question bee what voice ? or what day ? the answer from the psalm and from the apostles inference must bee this , the day of worshipping the lord our maker , and of resting with him in his house , and his voice , whose house we are , inviting us to it . answ. sabbatism in the notation of the word imports no more then rest : what it imports in the use of it i cannot discern but from this place , sith i know not where it is used in the new testament but here , nor in any other authour afore this . here it appears not to import any more then rest , sith it expresseth but what is expressed by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , v. , , . though i conceive that the matter shews it to bee meant of a holy rest , it being th● rest of gods people . but that the word comprehends rest and worship put together , i do not conceive . for the word a●ludes to the sabbath gen. . , . quo●ed heb. . , . now gods ●est imported not worship , though his appoint●ng us to rest on the sabbath , and to sanctifie it , doth import our worship of him . nor do i think the coherence of the words psal. . , , . doth imply that s●bbatism h●b . . . comprehends the s●bbath and worship put together , or tha● psal. . . to day if yee will hear his voyce , is meant of a day of rest to bee celebrated in the house of god in his wo●shi● , sith in those words there is not the word sabbatism , and the exhortation , to day if yee will hear his voyce , doth not app●ar to have been on the weekly sabbath da● , the ps●lm being not ( as the th . psalm ) intituled ▪ a psalm for the sabbath , and it is more likely that [ to day if you will hear his voyce ] intimates the day at the end of every seven years in the solemnity of the year of release in the feast of tabernacles , when all israel was come to appear before the lord in the place which he should chuse , and the law was to bee read before all israel in their hearing , deut. . , . at which time of the year every year they had gathered in their corn and wine , deut. . . and then they had no harvest , and so it was the fittest time to resem●le the rest remaining ●o gods people ; yet so far was it from being the weekly sabbath day , that as ainsworth notes on deut. . . the jewish doctors say that if the day of the assembling of the people happened to bee the sabbath day , the reading of the law was put off till after . yet were it the sabbath day , it doth not follow , that it is meant of a day of rest to be celebrated in the house of god in his worship , for the weekly sabbath was not celebrated in the house of god , that is , the tabernacle or temple ; but in their dwellings , exod. . . and therefore if the term [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wherefore , heb. . . ] did refer to whose house ye are , v. . ( though i conceive the inference is made from the words , if wee hold fast the confidence and re●oycing of the hope firm unto the end ) yet it proves it not to bee a weekly sabbath of rest to bee celebrated in the house of god in his worship . for the weekly sabbath was not celebrated in gods house , and if it were , each christian or the church were not fit to answer gods house in which it was celebrated , sith they are not the place where , that made the worship of god accepted as the tab●rnacle or temple that is proper to christ and his body , john . . heb. . but the persons by whom it is celebrated and who worship god. lastly , were all this granted , that heb. . . were meant a day of rest to bee celebrated in the house of god in his worship , yet this might be mean● of the rest in heaven often called gods house , where the elders cast down their crowns before god and worship and praise him , and not the weekly sabbath . fifthly , saith mr. c. because the apostle understands it of a day to be kept upon the same ground , in relation unto christ his ceasing from his works and entring into his rest , as the th . day sabbath was in relation to god his ceasing from his works , after his making the first crea●ion , and entring into his . so i● followeth v. . which to be meant of christ , and his entrance into his rest ( which he makes to be his passing into heaven , v. ) inferred from his entring into his rest v. . he endeavours to prove by reasons . answ. . the coherence be●ween heb. . ▪ and v. . doth rather intimate that [ he that is entred into his rest , v. . ] is a term common to all the people of god mentioned v. . and the exhortation v. . doth also import , t●at the person that enters into his rest v. is meant every believer . nor is any one of mr. cs. reasons convincing of the contrary . for . let the translation be mended as mr. c. would have it , yet it may be true of every believer , that he also hath ceased from his wor●s ▪ as god did from his own works . . seeing then , v. . may point out to what is said , heb . ● , , . . if heb . cannot be meant of ceasing from sin , yet it may be from lab●rious works and sufferings as revel . . . and such rest may be 〈◊〉 with refreshing , and looking upon them as good . . that v. . should be taken for a proof of v . is not necessary ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being not always causal or rati●nal , yet if it were , it might be thus , the rest of the people of god in heaven sha●l be a sabbatism like gods ; for such of them as shall enter into their rest , shall cease , or have ceased from their sufferings and painfull works , as god did from his in the beginning . . what he saith , that christ were not lord of the sabbath , as he saith mark . . luke . . unless he had entred into his rest , or as p. . he could not be lord of the sabbath , unless he also had a rest which he entred into as god did into his , i● without proof , and is false ; sith christ speaks of his being lord of the sabbath at that time afore he entred into his rest ; and doth imply that which some would call blasphemy , that christ as god had not been lord of the sabbath unless he had entred into his rest as man. but were it granted , that christ by reason of his entring into his rest as man , was lord of the sabbath , doth that prove that heb. . . is meant of christs entring into his rest ? or is it not rather a baculo ad angulum ? but were it granted that heb. . . were meant of christs entring into heaven , yet the rest before mentioned is rather thereby confirmed to be meant of rest in heaven with christ , then rest on earth on a weekly sabbath , sith the argument is strong thus , christ is passed into his rest in the heavens , therefore there is a rest remaining for the people of god there ; but hath no strength thus , christ is entred into the heavens to rest , therefore there remains to the people of god a weekly day of rest on earth . lastly , this very reason quite overthrows mr. cs. building . for he would ground the week day sabbath upon christs entring into his rest , and this day he would have to be the first day of the week , and the reason for inferring a week day sabbath upon christs entring into his rest is taken from the rest of god after the first creation , whereby the th . day sabbath was sanctified : now if there be the like reason of keeping a week day sabbath because of christs rest , as there was of keeping the th . day sabbbath because of gods rest , then it will not be the first day of the week which must be the sabbath , for that was not the day of his entring into his rest , but another day , to wit , the fifth day of the week , as may be gathered from acts . . mr. c. himself , p. . though he say that it is very probable that the ascension day was on the first day of the week , yet confesseth it not to be clear ; and the reason of the probability from act. . by the computation of the forty days from his resurrection , and the mention of a sabbath days journey , from mount olivet to jerusalem , occasioned ( as is likely ) from their making that journey then upon that day , v. . is so slender , that i know not that ever any learned man did conceive so with him ; and the computation of forty days from his resurrection , being on the first day of the week ( though the day of the resurrection contrary to the common computation should be excluded ) will not fix the ascention day on the first day of the week , but two days at least short of it . and for the mention of a sabbath days journey , act. . . it is clear from the words that it was onely to shew the distance of the place from jerusalem , not to shew that day to have been the sabbath day . i list not to trouble my self about the reason of using that expression rather then another , it being not material . yet were it granted it had been on the sabbath day , it had not been the first day of the week , for that is not termed in scripture , certainly not in the acts of the apostles , the sabbath day . what mr. c. adds . but albeit his rest was not compleated till he passed into the heavens , yet he first entred into it at his resurrection ▪ which being upon the first day of the week , there needeth no more to fix the command of the sabbath on that day , doth overthrow his arguing from heb. . , , , . whence he would deduce the christian sabbath because of christs entring into his rest at his passing into the heavens . which hurts not others , as mr. cawdrey , sabb. rediv. part . sect . . who confesseth the words heb. . . not to be spoken of christ , though he allude to them . i have insisted on this point by the way , because mr. c. makes use of it for infant baptism , but to how little purpose the sequel will shew . mr. c. for proof of infant baptism , p. . layes down this position , that what the lord confirmed by oath to abraham , he confirmed it to us , even to all believers after christ to the worlds end ; which i grant if understood of spiritual evangelical promises which accompany salvation , but not if meant of those peculiar blessings and priviledges which were promised to abrahams natural seed . yet in his proof of that position i conceive sundry things not right which are vented by him , as p. . that the voice of christ meant heb. . . is an inviting us to celebrate his day of rest in his house in the worship of the gospel , which he means of a weekly sabbath , and a particular congregation , and outward worship , as sundry passages following shew ; and this he makes a part of the gospel , p. . and the believer that neglects it comes short of the promise of entring into gods rest , and is a departing from the living god , heb. ● . . in tanto , though not in toto . in which speeches as there is much mistake , and wrong interpretation of the text , which speaks not of such a week day rest , or the house of god in the second capacity as he terms it , or of entrance into his rest as his house in that capacity , so that speech is very dangerous , now this entrance into his rest as his house in this second capacity , is that which the apostle chiefly speaketh to here , when he saith , take heed brethren of an evil heart of unbelief , in departing from the living god. and that in case the people of his pasture , and sheep of his hand , even his own children , will not hear his voyce , but forsake his worship , refusing his offer in this gospel rest as they did in canaan rest , he will also swear against them as he did against these , that they shall not enter into his rest . which if true , then they that are not convinced of the weekly christian sabbath , as many godly and learned divines in forreign parts , and in these nations are not , those who do not on that day joyn in the publike and solemn worship , as prayer , preaching , breaking bread , and that too in a particular gathered congregation , as se●kers , and many other persons , whereof we cannot but judge many of them to be godly , these are chiefly meant by the apostle as those that have an evil heart of unbelief , depart from the living god , god will swear they shall not enter into his rest . nor will the limitation in tanto help to free his speech from those horrid consequences , which it is liable to , if it be true ▪ which he saith , that the apostle chiefly speaketh to that entrance in his rest as his house in the second capacity , heb. . . and to expound gods swearing that they should not en●er into his rest in that sense , if they did not hear his voyce inviting to keep the sabbath , makes the speech inept thus , if ye will not keep the sabbath , i swear ye shall not keep the sabbath . nor do i conceive what he saith , p. . is right , that christ gave his saints the keys of the kingdome of heaven . matth. . . and from that gift to peter the saints do claim their church power , each according to their place and station in the church ; for they have it as peters , that is , as stones in that building , or if you will , as confessours , which makes them to be stones in the house of god : for neither by the keys is meant all church power , nor are the keys given to the saints , much less to them as stones or confessours , though such things are supposed oft times , but not proved ▪ but i hasten to the view of what follows , being the chief thing mr. c. infers his infant baptism from . sect . lxxviii . mr. carters exposition of gen. . , , . as if god promised to make every believer a blessing , so as to cast ordinarily elect children on elect parents , is refuted . that which is mr. cs. basis for his fabrick of infant-baptism , is from the covenant of god with abraham , gen , . , , . which he saith contains four things . . that god would bless abraham , and with him all believers , with all spiritual blessings in christ , rom. . . gal. . , , , . and this agrees with gen. . . ] which i yeeld . secondly ( saith he ) more particularly in gods promise to abraham is contained something peculiar unto him , and which believers are to claim particularly from his promise made to abraham ; as namely , in the second place , that god would not onely bless abraham ; and in him all believers , but also would make them blessings , and that chiefly and in the first place to their families ; and not onely so , but also to nations . gen. . , , . so gen. . . this promise peter alledgeth and explaineth to the jews , act. . the word is all the families of the earth . the same word we have , ephes. . . the covenant ma●e with ab●aham therefore , as by this place we see , that we have it in that of gen. . . where it was first made and given , so also that it respecteth families and posterity ; else he had said all the b●lievers , or all the people of the earth , not all the families of the earth shall be blessed . and he could not have said to the jews , ye are the children of the covenant , had it not respected the children of the p●ople of god. nor is it to be restrained onely to the jews ; for the promise is concerning all the fami●ies of the earth , therefore it followeth in the next words , v. . unto you first . and this blessing as it is first laid down , gen. . and here repeated by the apostle , we see is a blessing both upon the people of god themselves , and upon their families . nor is this promise to be restrained onely unto this ▪ that of abraham and his seed should christ come , ( although that also be included , because what we receive from abraham we have it all in christ , ) for so all those of the line of christ were blessings to the world as well as he . and because here is something intended applicable to all believers , namely , that they also shall be blessings in their generations ; and because a blessing upon families is intended also , for so the words run , thou shalt be a blessing , and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed ; therefore i say it must not be so restrained . but the meaning is , that in his covenant with abraham he hath thus far limited himself , and discovered his mind and purpose , that his choice shall not be proportion●bly all over the world alike , but that it shall be by families and nations ; so as he will ordinarily cast elect children upon elect parents ; and the lot of the saints in neighbourhoods and places together , and not by eq●al numbers in each part of the world alike . had not his election been so limited to families and nations , neither abraham nor believers could have been said to be blessings in spiritual things , either to their families or to any other where they live , as now they are , because god so blesseth onely his elect , ephes . . , . answ. the sum of this i conceive to be , that god promising to abraham he should be a blessing , gen. , . that in him all the families of the earth , gen. . . all the nations of the earth , gen. . . shall be blessed , in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed , gen. . . did promise that every believer should be a blessing in his generation in spiritual things to his family and neighbourhood , and thereby god ha●h limited himself to cast ordinarily elect children on elect parents , and the lot of the saints in neighbourhoods and places together , and not by equal numbers in each part of the world alike . which exposition is many wayes faulty , and the conclusion inferred from it either false or uncertain , and yet if it were true and certain , would not yeeld a sufficient reason for infant baptism , as will be shewed in the sequel . the first thing i except against this exposition , that when it is said gen. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he takes it for granted , it is to bee understood actively , as if the meaning were that abraham should be a blessing to others , whereas ( as pareus in his com saith ) it may be an amplification of the things going before , thou shalt bee altogether and very blessed : in which sense we use often the abstract for the contract , as a man very honest is called honesty . yea the lxx render it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and thou shalt be blessed . piscat . schol . vel , esto in benediction● , hoc est benedictus . diodati annot . blessed every way : as if all blessings were gathered together in thee , or a pattern of a compleat blessing . . that he takes i● as i● what is said must bee applicable to all believers , that they shall be blessings in their generations . but this is not proved from the text , which onely speaks of abraham being a blessing , and though it is true heb. . . the promise of bless●ng to abraham is made a promise of which all believers are heyrs , v. . yet is it plain from many passages in that chapter v , , , , , . that it is meant that they are heirs of the promise of blessing to themselves in enjoying salvation as abraham did , not of imparting blessing to others . . that he takes it as if it must follow , that if abraham were a blessing to others , it must bee in that spiritual blessings according to election were in some proportion entailed to the post●rity and neighbourhood of all true believers . but pareus thus ; some expound it actively , thou shalt be a blessing , that is , thou shalt bless others : my blessing shall not bee shut up in thee alone ; but out of thee it shall flow also to others . blessing shall so stick in thee wheresoever thou comest , that by thy ministry others may also come to a blessing . nor do the exposition of some hebrews seem to bee refused , that abraham shall be a publike example of all sort of blessing in the world , so that all that wish well to themselves or o●hers , may wish for the happiness of abraham : or as the new annot in gen. . . shalt be a blessing ] that is , more then thou shalt have a blessing , for in this blessing is virtually comprised the happiness of both worlds , and of all that are truely blessed in all ages ; whereof though god be the onely author , abraham is honoured to bee a principal means under him to bring it to pass in being the progenitour of the promised seed , and setting such an example of beliefe as might qualifie him to be stiled father of the faithfull , rom. . , . the world shall receive by thy seed , which is christ , the blessing which it lost in adam . mr. c. himselfe denies not to bee included in this promise , that of abraham and his seed the lord christ should come , but saith , if it bee restrained onely to this then it will follow that all those of the line of christ were blessings to the world as well as hee . to which i reply , . if the sense given be included as he grants , then his sense is not necessary , nor can any thing be proved by it . . though the speech in the sense given bee restrained , yet the absurdity followes not , sith the being a blessing by begetting christ is not so invested in any as in abraham , who is made the first trustee as it were , of this blessing by the covenant , or charter granted to him . . i except that in the promise , in thee , or in thy seed shall all the families or nations of the earth bee blessed . mr. carter conceives thee and thy seed to comprehend every believer : whereas the apostle expounds acts . . [ in thy seed ] of christ onely , and [ in thee ] galath . . , . of abraham onely , with whom as the pattern o● believing and beeing blessed , they which bee of the faith are blessed . i deny not that by abrahams seed believers are meant gen. . . and gen. . . and that the apostle rom. . . gal. . . and elsewhere so expounds it ; but no where do i finde the promises gen. ● . & . . & . . expounded so as that in thy seed should no●e every believer , and the sense in which mr. carter takes it , as if in every believer all the families of the earth should bee blessed , it is derogatory from abrahams peculiar priviledge one way understood , another from christs , and not much short of blasphemy . . that hee makes families and nations of the earth to bee different in the promises mentioned , as appears by his words [ and that chiefly and in the first place to their families ; and not onely so , but also to nations ] whereas the holy ghost makes no such difference . for as the same promise which is expressed by families , gen. . . is expressed by nations , gen. . . so in the new testament the promise gen. . . where the word is rendred families , is expressed gal. . . by nations and the term which is gen. . . all the nations of the earth is acts . . all the kindreds or families of the earth , as mr. c. would have it . . mr. c. seems by families to whom believers should be a blessing , children , as when hee saith , god will ordinarily cast children elect upon elect parents , and by nations neighbourhoods , as when hee saith , the lot of the saints in neighbourhoods and places together , whereas families in the hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whether rendred by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the lxx gen. . . that is , tribes , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 acts . . notes more then posterity or housholds , even whole tribes , and kinreds that draw their line from one great ancestour , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes a whole people of one language , though in their dwellings so remote as to have no entercourse one with another . i will not trouble my self to enquire what difference there is between the words in hebrew and greek which are translated families , tribes , kindreds , nations : this i am sure they contain greater and more ample numbers of men then those who live together under one roof or one town , and if from thence the extent of the covenant be inferred to posterity of believers and their neighbours , and so the seal of the covenant ( as mr. c. doth ) because believers are promised to bee a blessing to posterity and neighbours , it will follow from the termes families and nations , that they are blessings to whole parishes , townes , cities and nations , and they are to be baptised and parochial , city , national churches to bee set up again , against which mr. c. with his brethren have so much hitherto contended . . by mr. cs. exposition whereas the promises are that all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in a believer , this is brought to so narrow a compass , as that it is restrained to posterity and neighbourhood . . the manner how in believers their posterity is said to be blessed , and he a blessing to them is expressed to be , in that god casts elect children upon elect paients , which i know not well how to understand . it seems to bear a sense if not the same yet very near that in which we are said to be chosen in christ , ephes. . , . which mr. c. alledgeth to this purpose , and cor. . . we are of god in him , who is made to us of god wisdom , and righteousness , and sanctification , and redemption , which were near blasphemy . which to avoid it concerned mr. c. to have more clearly and distinctly expressed himself . what he saith [ that the covenant made with abraham gen. . , . respecteth families and posteritie ; else he had said all the believers , or all the people of the earth , not all the families of the earth shall bee blessed ] shews his oversight in not observing that it is gal. . . all the nations of the earth , which is equivalent to all the people of the earth , and yet v. . by all the nations of the earth , are meant no more then they that are of faith . and when he saith , that the apostle acts . . could not have said to the jewes , ye are the children of the covenant , had it not respected the children of the people of god , hee heeded not that they are said as well to bee children of the prophets , and therefore the sense is not that they were descended from the covenant or prophets by natural generation , but ye are they to whose ancestours the covenant was at first given , and the prophets sent , which are not common things to all the children of the people of god or true believers , the gentile believers children are not children of the covenant and prophets in the sense there meant , but proper to the jews . nor is the proposition true which mr. c. would gather from the covenant to abraham . for , . god hath plainly discovered his mind rom. . , , , , , , , , , , . that he chuseth at his pleasure children of unbelievers as well as believers , and of the posterity of believers , either none or which he will , arbitrarily and by no ordinary or certain rule , but as a potter doth with his clay , ac●ording to his soveraignty , not out of special grace to the children of his elect for the parents sake , and accordingly the saints praise him for their redemption out of every kinred , and tongue , and people , and nation , rev. . . without respect to their ancestours . . our lord christ foretold matt . , . that he came to divide a man against his father , and the daughter against her mother , and the daughter in law against her mother in law , and a mans enemies should be they of his own house . and in the families of the most godly , how few were found elect may appear by the posterity of david , josiah , jehoshaphat , ●li , samuel , abraham himself , with many more . as for our own experience in our own times it is so uncertain , that no good estimate can be made thereupon , concerning gods ordinary way . perhaps in some families it falls out , that the posterity , and neighbours , and servants are godly , but many complaints of degenerating , of back-sliding , shew it as often to be otherwise . i wish it were true which mr. c. writes , though i find no proof of it , that in all ages god hath cast it so in his providence , that his people are not to be found in all places alike : but we finde them together in some families and nations . now this is not faln out by chance , but because god hath so made his choise , hath been a god to believers and their seed in their generation ; and hath made them blessings for the conversion and edification of their children , neighbours and acquaintance , and that not onely by a common providence , as he blesseth the corn and grass of the field , but it is by vertue of a special word of blessing a creating word of promise , which giveth a being to the things promised , even this promise made to abraham and in him to all believers , gen. , . without which , good examples and other means of education and conversion , had not had such efficacy and power in turning sinners to god. but i do not believe it , sith neither hath the covenant such a sense as mr. c. gives it , nor is there such e●perience proved , and it is found that what good is done among children of believing parents , is done as often by servants , minister , good company , remarkable providences and other wayes , as by parents endeavours , and if without such a promise as mr. c. imagines , such means had not such efficacy , i think not onely parents who believe no such promise , but also ministers , and others who expect a blessing upon their endeavours without mr. cs. promise , would be discouraged in their work . that which is said psal. . . though it prove the perpetuity of gods covenant with abraham , yet proves not the sense mr. c. gives of the covenant . nor doth that luk. . . yeeld any clearness to i● , for salvation came to zacheus his house in respect of his person , and if it did to others in his house , yet it is not said by vertue of the covenant to abraham as mr. c. imagines , and what mr. c. saith about acts . . that it was spoken because of this promise to abraham is his own gloss without any hint from the text , and would infer this proposition , that by vertue of gods promise to abraham upon the faith of an house-keeper his house should be saved , which is contrary to constant experience of believing masters , husbands , parents having unbelieving servants , wives , children . i grant abraham to be the holy root , rom. . . and that v. . the jewes as touching the election are beloved for the fathers sake and that they shall be graffed in again because the gu●●t once given to them , god will not repent of , and though i say not the church bringeth forth children to abraham , yet i yeeld jerusalem which is above the evangelical covenant doth , and that the children of promise , or of the free-woman are abrahams seed ▪ all believers even of the gentiles , but this is so far from proving the blessing upon families and kinreds , and gods ordering in such manner his election , as mr. c. devised , and would have perpetual from psal. . . that it rather proves the contrary . for the breaking off the jews , and the ingraffing the gentiles , not of the families or kinred of the root abraham but a wild olive by nature , proves the blessing not to be to families , nor election so ordered , as that to a thousand generations , to all generations even to the worlds ●nd , god ordinarily casts elect children upon elect parents . nor doth the citing of isa. . . which is rom. . , . with the inference thereupon , prove that god entails his blessing upon families from generation to generation ; but that god hath such a special love to the family of abraham , isaac , and jacob , that after a long breaking off that nation shall be restored again and re-ingraffed for the fathers sake , which is there made the peculiar priviledge of israel after the flesh . but there is not a word in the apostle , rom. . that shews that priviledge to have been enjoyed by believing gentiles since their being graffed into the same root and olive tree from whence the jews were broken off . nor is it true . for god hath removed his candlestick from many places where there were famous churches , a●d from many kindreds , families , and people , where there were formerly godly company and society ; so that now the progeny are become profane , and apostates , and the churches replenished with plants out of families in which a little while since popery , profaneness , and viciousness did abound . no● do cor. . . acts . . make any thing for mr. cs. purpose , as shall appear in the sequel . nor doth the application of circumcis●on to the child , or abrahams title of father of all them that believe , prove the covenant with abraham in mr. cs. sense : nor is it true , the application of circumcision to the child is a necessary and essential part of that ordinance . for that is not an essential part of an ordina●ce without which it might be : but the ordinance of circumcision might be , and perhaps was at first without application to a child , if thereby be meant an infant ; however , if none but parents were circumcised , as when the circumcision was josh. . it had been the ordinance of circumcision nevertheless : when onely one proselyte a● age was circumcised it was the ordinance . ergo. as for what mr. c. answers to the objection from experience , it is indeed a pulling down of what he had spent so much time to build up . for if gods blessing do not take effect through mens sin , or defect of using means , then the promise is not to families and kindreds in that absolute manner mr. c. before described it , then the promise is to the quality and diligence of the persons , not to the relation ; then is the promise as well to any other so qualified and diligent , as to the parent ; then is it false which he said before , pag. . that the success was not from example and other means , but a special word of blessing the promise to abraham . finally , if that be true which he hath pag. . ( which is false printed ) g . that although gods promise be to carry his election so , as to cast elect children upon elect parents , yet he reserveth to himself , and also useth in this a liberty , namely , ever and anon to be still breaking of 〈…〉 graffing in others into this holy root ; then what he said before , p. . f . that god hath thus far limited himself , and discovered his mind and purpose , that he will ordinarily cast elect children upon elect parents , is false : for what god reserveth to himself , and useth a liberty in , he hath not limited himself so far ; and if he ever and anon useth this liberty , to be still breaking of● some , and graffing in others , then he doth not ordinarily cast elect children upon elect parents ▪ for what is otherwise ever and anon and still , is not so ordinarily , much less still in being to a thousand generations , to all generations , even to the worlds end , as he said pag. . g. so that mr. cs. discourse from his own words is found hitherto to contain mistakes , uncertainty , and in the main , inconsistency with it self . let 's view whether in the rest there be any thing worthy of a lord mayors imprimatur . a third thing mr. c. observes as contained in the lords promise unto abraham , is , that by thus blessing and making believers blessings , god would multiply his seed , gen. . . so gen. . , . that this is part of the gospel , and contained in the promise made to him and us , is proved from heb. . . a further proof we have gen. . . alledged rom. . , , . as belonging to believing gentiles , the increase of whose number by means of gods blessing believers so as to make them blessings as abrahams seed , was intended in that promise , and as part of that gospel , which god preached unto abraham : there 's a promise that the kingdome of christ shall fill the world , dan. . , . to this purpose is that of our saviour , matth. . , , . now the lords making believers blessings , and thereby multiplying abrahams seed , is that which makes his kingdome thus to be like leaven , whereby the whole world at last will be seasoned with the knowledge and love of christ. therefore this multiplying of believers , so as to fill the world , is made by the apostle , rom. . . to be part of abrahams promise ; then mark what follows , v. , , . this promise was made sure to all believers , as well gentiles as jews . answ. . why mr. c. makes that the d. thing in gods promise gen. . , . which is the d . and puts that as the d . thing which is after the rest v. . and so the th . i see no reason , but onely that he foresaw that otherwise there had been no colour for this which he here infers , that by thus blessing and making believers blessings god would multiply his seed , gen. . . but the right order of the promises shews this conceit to be only mr. cs. fancy . for in that the promise v. . is put last , it is shewed thereby that it is a distinct promise , and that it doth not express the manner how god would multiply abrahams seed , as mr. c. conceives . . it is true gen. . . is a gospel promise to believing gentiles , rom. . . but not in mr. cs. sense , that the increase of the number of believing gentiles , should be by means of gods blessing believers so as to make them blessings as abrahams seed , in that god would cast ordinarily elect children o● elect parents , and the lot of the saints in neighbourhoods and places together : but in this sense , that abraham should have an innumerable company of children , or his seed among the gentiles by faith , who should be faithfull●●raham ●●raham , gal. . . in their own persons , but no mention is there of their being a blessing to others . . that the church of christ should fill the world , dan. . , . that the kingdome of heaven as a grain of mustard seed , or leaven , matth. . , , . shall fill or season the world ▪ is granted ; but that it is meant in those places to be done in mr. cs. way , is denied : i do conceive it to have been meant of the apostles preaching , as me thinks christs words , matth. . . do import . that the promise of being heir of the world was to abraham and his seed believing gentiles , is granted ; but that his or their being heir of the world did import any such blessing as mr. c. imagines , as if god would ordinarily cast elect children on elect parents , or that any such thing is intimated by the apostle v. , , . is denied : nor do i yet find any interpreter afore mr. c. who hath so expounded the prom●se . in the opening of the th . promise , that the seed of abraham should possess the gates of their enemies , though his exposition be granted , i see not what advantage it gives him for proof of infant baptism , and therefore let it pass ; onely i take notice , that when p. . he makes the multiplying of the seed of abraham , and the conquest of the world to be a spiritual work to be effected by the sword of the spirit the word of god , it follows , that it is to be done by preachers rather then by parents , and consequently not in that way mr. c. imagines , but in the way which christ took , by sending his apostles to preach the gospel to every creature . what he saith p. . of the meaning of gen. . . hath been shewed before to be uncertain , and to be proved false by the history of the church , in that in affrica the posterity of cham were in the church of christ as well as shems and japhets posterity ; and how abrahams seed shall fill the world at last and rule over it , is so doubtfull , as that i conceive no certainty can be thence deduced . the conceit of the four kings gen. . as if their people became afterwards the four monarchies ▪ is such a fancy , as a waking man that knows the distance between rome , greece , and canaan , and the voyage they must take by sea , and other circumstances which the story gen. . and other histories suggest , will take onely for a dream . mr. cs. gloss , p. . on the words of christ , mark . . who soever shall not receive the kingdome of god as a little child ▪ that is , as a child receiveth it , shall not enter therein ; whether he mean i● of the visible church or kingdome of glory , it cannot be true . for let the way of entring the kingdome of god be by birth , or baptism , or any other way , yet a true believer by faith and profession may enter into the kingdome of god in a way different from that a little child receives it in who hath no understanding of christ : and though both be passive in the first work on their souls , yet believers of age are not meerly p●ssive as little children who have no understanding at all of christ. but for the true meaning of christ , i need say no more but refer the reader to christs words , matth. . . whence the meaning appears to be , that no person not endued with that qualification of self-humbling , of which a little child is a fit embleme , psal. . . shall become an inheritour of glory . nor is there any proof made by mr. c. of his dictate , that because christ would that little children also should be members of his kingdome , therefore hath he made it one branch of the gospel of this kingdome , that the families of the righteous shall be blessed . his reason he gives , p. . is no reason ; for god might have gone further then ordinarily ▪ to cast elect children upon elect parents , even to have done so universally and perpetually , and yet we might no more have been sons of god by natural generation , and as much by nature born children of wrath as now we are conceived . though god had not so far , as mr. c. imagines , confined his choice to families , kindreds , and nations , his elect had not been destitute of means of education , sith god could have provided catechists , preachers , and others to that end , in other families , kindreds , and na●ions : sure in some ages of the church there was so little provision made to that end in families , kindreds , and nations , that it appears that almost all the means of education was from monasteries in scotland and ireland , by the histories that remain , as may be seen by seldens epistle before the histories collected by twisden , ushers relation of the irish religion , and elsewhere . if it were the most natural and ready way to multiply the spiritual seed for the increase of gods kingdome , by making believers a blessing to families and nations , as mr. c. saith p. . sure god by sending apostles , and not using kings and masters of families for that end , omitted the readiest and most natural way ; and i see not why it should be judged the best way to propagate the gospel , to gather churches out of parishes , and set pastors over them , or to send itinerant preachers , but to reduce all churches to family and national churches , and to make kings and masters of families elders and rulers over them . nor do i find that either god so casts the lot of his saints together ▪ as mr. c. imagines , or that by that means the gifts of gods people are improved , and light increased ; but by raising up holy teachers and pastors , and associating of the saints from their several dwellings into a well ordered assembly . if as mr. c. saith p. . the israelites destroyed the canaanites not by common rules of righteousness among men , but by special revelation and command from god ; then either they did it not by the promise gen. . . or that promise did not assure them of the possession of canaan by common rules of justice , as mr. c. conceives . that the people of god in the times of the n. t. may not make war against antichrist or babylon and their party as an anathema , but upon a natural and civil account , for the just liberties opposed and invaded by them , may be well doubted , considering sundry passages which are rev. . , . & . , . that the dominion which the saints shall at last obtain , shall need no force either to get or maintain it ; but it shall naturally fall upon them , as from other causes , so also by reason of the●r number , according to the law of nature , and common rules of righteousness , is not proved from isa. . . and how much it may tend to denying the lawfulness of christians fighting in wars , especially if the chief or onely cause be to preserve the godly from oppressions in religion , is to be consid●red . and that power is naturally devolved upon the saints because of their numbers , ( as p. . is intimated , ) seems to me an unsafe speech , as resting on this position , that power is naturally devolved on the greatest number . it is enough that i have onely by the way noted these things , that what men preach and print may be better considered : i pass on to the examining of mr. cs. application . sect . lxxix . neither did circumcision seal mr. cs. additional promise , nor was abraham thence termed father of believers . the first thing mr. c. observes is , that in the promise to abraham there 's an addition made to the former promise to adam , gen. . . which i grant , but not such an addition as mr. c. conceivs . the next is , that to this promise of making believers blessings to families and nations , god made an addition of the seal of circumcision , and the application of this seal to infants is part of the se●l , thereby signifying and confirming that promise of such blessing . so gen. . , . had not the application of it to the infant been part of the token of the covenant the childs not being circumcised had not been a breach of the covenant ; nor could the lord have said , this is my covenant , that the manchild be circumcised , if the application of that ordinance to the child , had not in it a signification and confirmation of something in the covenant . answ. there are these things to be proved : . that circumcision was a seal of the covenant made to abraham gen. . . that circumcision was a seal of this promise of god , of making believers blessings to families and nations in order to the multiplying the seed , and encrease of the kingdome of christ. . that the application of this seal to infants is part of the seal . . that thereby was signified and confirmed that promise of such blessing . but the proof is of other things , . that the application of circumcision to the infant is part of the token of the covenant . . the application of that ordinance to the child , had in it a signification and confirmation of something in the covenant ; for neither is it all one to bee a token and to bee a seal of the covenant , there being other tokens then seals ; and signe and token being the same , though distinguished rom. . . they are unfitly confounded by mr. c. nor is it all one to signifie something in the covenant , and to signifie this thing in the covenant , that god would make believers blessings in mr. cs. sense . not doth either of mr. cs. middle terms prove either of his conclusions . for the childs not being circumcised had been a breach of the covenant , as being a breach of the command of god enjoyned then , though circumcising the child had been no part of the token of the covenant , and the lord might have said , this is my covenant that the man child bee circumcised , that is , this is my command in my covenant , if the application of that ordinance to the child , had not in it a signification and confirmation of something in the covenant . but allowing that circumcision is called the covenant by a metonimy of the thing signified for the signe , and that it signified something in the covenant beeing applied to infants , yet not one of mr. carters propositions is proved thereby ; for . it may be a signe and not a seal . . it might be a seal of the covenant gen. . yet not of that promise gen. . . which is in another covenant , not in that gen. . . if it were a seal of that promise gen. . . yet not in mr. cs. new devised sense . . ●o omit the ineptness or non sense of the speech , the application of this seal to infants is part of the seal . for what doth hee mean by the application of this seal to infants but onely circumcision , and hee before called circumcision the seal which hee meant ; so that his speech can have no other construction then this , circumcision of infants is part of circumcision , which is inept or non-sense , i say further that the speech is not true . for if it bee a part it is either essential or integral , i know no other sort of parts it can bee meant of ; but it it is not a part essential , for then without application to infants there should bee no seal , and so a proselyte had not the seal though hee were circumcised , unless hee had an infant manchild and hee circumcised , nor integral , for the circumcision of a proselyte was entire circumcision or seal ( as they speak ) without his manchilds circumcision . thence also , saith mr. c. is that in acts . . that is , he did it according to that covenant of circumcision , so as the application of the seal to the infant was part of the covenant to bee performed on the part of abraham and his seed in their generations , even by his spiritual seed to a thousand generations , in that which is the same for substance , and equivalent to circumcision , as we shall see anon . answ. that god gave abraham the covenant of circumcision , and so , or accordingly , or he ( according to the copies that have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 no● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) begate isaac , and circumcised him the eighth day is not denied , nor that he did this according to the covenant of circumcision , that is according to the command of god concerning circumcision as a signe of his covenant gen. . in which sense it is granted that the applica●ion of the seal ( meaning circumcision ) to the ( male ) infant was part of the covenant to be performed on the part of abraham and his seed in their generations , but this proves not what mr. c. undertook to prove , that it was part of the seal , or part of the token of the covenant ( it beeing not all one to bee part of the covenant and part of the seal or token of the covenant ) unless mr. c. confounds them ( as he seems to do ) nor is there any word of god for application of any seal to the infant but circumcision , the text is express for circumcision , this is my covenant which ye shall keep between me and you and thy seed after thee , every man child shall bee circumcised , which can bee understood of no other then circumcision , without making god to speak non-sense , and making god command a thing in words which they signifie not , and making god to command a thing indefinite and indeterminate , which no wise law-giver doth , and making a pronoun demonstrative to import not the definite thing expressed , but some other individuum vagum , of which it is uncertain what it is , contrary to the very exposition of the holy ghost gen. . . where it is expresly said , that abrahams circumcising was as god had said unto him , contrary to what abraham , and all interpreters jewish and christian ( that i have ever met with afore mr. c. ) have conceived , and which i● it be granted it will follow that if the male child of abrahams posterity had not been circumcised , but had another seal of the covenant applied to it , the covenant or command gen. . , , , . had not been broken , moses had kept the command if he had baptised his son , though he did not circumcise him . these and many more absurdi●ies follow on that portentous opinion , which i guessed long since by some words of mr. cawdrey and palmer in the first part of thei● sabb. rediv . ch . § . . to have been hatching to maintain the judaizing conceit of infant baptism from infant circumcision , that they might not seem therein to run on the rock of holding the law of circumcision yet in force ; yet might have some colour for a command of infant baptism , gen. . , , , , , . where infant circumcision is commanded and nothing else , but i found it not so expresly vented by any afore mr. c. now what saith he for it ? ● . that this part of the covenant was to be performed by abrahams spiritual seed . but hee doth not prove that it was to bee performed by abrahams spiritual seed of the gentiles after christs comming . hee urgeth the words of the psalmist psalm . . . hee hath remembred his covenant for ever : the word which hee commanded to a thousand generations . but first , the word is not meant of the command of a seal to bee applied to infants , but of his own promise , which hee will have firme as his command , psalm . . . & . . & . . as the new annotat . and piscat . on the place , which also appears from the words following , which terme it gods covenant hee made with abraham , and his oath unto isaac , which is expressed vers . . which cannot be understood of his command to us what we should do , but his promise of what hee himself will do . secondly , the word commanded signifieth gods decree within himself ; or as diodati in his note on the place , hee commanded ] which hee appointed by his soveraign and irrevocable decree , as the word commanded is used psalm . . . and elsewhere . thirdly , to a thousand generations , notes not just so many ; but as piscator in his scholi● on the place , it is by a synecdoche of the kinde , as if it were said unto many ages . and this must needs bee granted , sith the covenant however it bee granted to imply in the latent sense the promise of the heavenly inheritance , yet in the patent sense must bee understood ( as v. . . compared shew ) of the earthly canaan : which they had not a thousand generations , but for many ages ; as exod. . , to thousand generations is meant not precisely so many and no more , but a long time indefinite , beyond three or four generations : and thus must also bee understood the promise of the land of canaan to bee for ever , to be an everlasting possession , that is , for a long time , as frequently it is used exod. . . exod. . . sam. . . levit. . , , , , &c. what hee saith of baptism being the same for substance and equivalent to circumcision , unless hee mean it , that infant baptism and infant circumcision are one equivalent to the other , and the same for substance in this sense [ they are of no force not obliging christians nor benefiting them ] it will be found in examining that which follows , to have no truth . mr. c. adds , and that this blessing upon families and posterity was signified , held forth , and sealed by circumcising the child , appeareth further by that promise uttered in that phrase , deut. . . which kind of expression intimates , that the promise of the conversion of their children was held forth , and confirmed in that seal . as when the apostle saith wee are baptized into one body , is signified and sealed in baptism our union with christ in one body , because else those words had been in no capacity to have been so used in that sense , as they are used both by the apostle and by moses . answ. . the phrase of circumcising the heart , deut. being used to express conversion or change of the heart , doth shew indeed that there is some resemblance between them , yet that it is so by institution is not proved , no more then because by breaking up our fallow ground , together with circumcising , the same thing is si●nified jer. . , . and by washing , isa. . . therefore plowing and washing are by institution to bee used to that end , . but be it granted that circumcision was instituted to signifie the ch●nge of the heart , as baptism our union with christ in one body , yet this proves not that it was to signifie and seal a promise of something future , but rather what was already done . for if it signifie as baptism , then it signifies conversion already effected , baptism being a sign that the person was united to christ and to all his members by one spirit , as the very terms cor. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wee have been baptised , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we have been drencht , shew . and though the words deut. . . are a promise , yet the term [ circumcise ] of it self , and in like manner the use of circumcision , according to the institution , may as well note a thing done , as a thing promised to bee done . . nevertheless let it bee granted that circumcision did in the institution of it note conversion of the heart , and signified a promise of it as being a token of the covenant in which that was covertly promised , yet this proves not that it held forth a blessing upon families and posterity . for there is no mention deut. . . of families , though there be of posterity , and that mention which is of posterity , is of them not in their infant , but adult estate , and upon condition of the childs returning to god , and obeying his voice as well as the parents , as mr. baxter rightly observes in his friendly accommodation with mr. bedford p. . i may add , that the promise there is expressed onely concerning one case , to wit repentance in captivity , v. , . , . and the promise ( as appears from v. . ) is a promise peculiar to the israelites . . but were this further granted , that thence might be proved that circumcision by institution signified the promise of conversion of posterity , and that this were to gentile believers , yet this is nor that which mr. c. would evince , that the application of the seal to infants in that it was to infants sealed this promise , or that the promise was sealed in mr. cs. sense , so as that god would ordinarily cast elect children on elect parents , and make parents a blessing , so as that abrahams seed by faith should be multiplied in families and nations by them . what mr. c. adds , that the sign had not held proportion with the thing signified ; namely , there had been nothing in the sign to signifie and seal that blessing upon posterity , had the application of it to infants been left out , is but a vain dictate . for . if the sign held similitude with the thing signified , though it held not proportion so as to be applied to all whose conversion was signified it might serve for the use of a sign , as a conveyance to a father may assure the childs interest ; and therefore that which mr. c. dictates , that for this reason infants were to be circumcised , to seal that promise of believers being a blessing , added to adams covenant , is a vain conceit without proof , sith it might have been as well assured if the parents had been circumcised onely , as well as when the male infants onely were circumcised . and that which he saith further is most false , and vain , nor indeed had there been any use of the application of it to the infant , nor that made a part of the ordinance , had there not been such a branch in the covenant as a blessing upon families and posterity to be thereby signified and sealed . for besides this , that mr. c. proves neither that branch in the covenant , nor that use of infant circumcision , it is clear by stephens speech , act. . , , , . that abraham circumcised isaac in assurance of the land of canaan , and that he received the covenant of circumcision to that end : and that the circumcising of infants had this use , to signifie christ to come , seems plainly to be delivered by the apostle , col. . . and by the general consent of divines . much more vain is that which he adds , so as if that priviledge be denied unto infants , that which was given to us in abrahams covenant is rejected , as he saith gen. . the uncircumcised man-child shall be cut off from his people , he hath broken my covenant . for neither if mr. cs. sense of the promise gen. . . gen. . , . be rejected , is there any thing which was given to us in abrahams covenant rejected , nor had the denying of circumcision to infants necessarily inferred the rejecting of that which was given in abrahams covenant ; nor do the words gen. . . import , that by not circumcising the person omitting it had rejected that which was given in abrahams covenant , for so moses not circumcising his son had rejected the covenant ; but the breaking the covenant was onely meant of breaking the command of that which was the token of the covenant . much less is this true of those that deny infant baptism , that they reject the spiritual blessings given in abrahams covenant , baptism being not by christs institution a seal of gods covenant or promise to us , unless by consequence , much less the mixt covenant of abraham , as it contained domestical benefits proper to abrahams house , much more less the new conceited promise of mr. c. nor was infant baptism ever commanded by god , but invented by men in a fond imitation of jewish circumcision ; and as long as we keep close to the institution matth. . . and baptize and are baptized upon believing in testimony of our union with christ and his church , cor. . . we may securely flight mr. cs. doom of being cut off from gods people , which after mr. cotton refuted by me in the second part of this review , sect . . he hath vainly here renewed to affright silly people with . mr. c. adds , that abraham was called father of believers , . from believing this additional promise given in order to the increase of his spiritual seed , which he proves from rom. . . gen. . . . from his receiving the seal of that promise , rom. . . from which place we may observe , . that circumcision was a seal of the righteousness of faith . . that because it was a seal of that righteousness , which he had before he was circumcised , he therefore became the father of all that believe , whether circumcised or not . now had not this seal been given him that he might be the father of believers , his receiving it at this or that time , whether before , or after his believing to righteousness , had made nothing for the universality of his relation as a father of all believers . answ. i grant that abrahams believing the promise , gen. . . and his receiving circumcision a seal of that righteousness of faith he had in uncircumcision , was the reason of his title of father of believers . and i grant that abrahams personal circumcision was a seal of the righteousness of faith to all believers circumcised or uncircumcised , and therefore he had it afore his circumcision , that it might not be judged as proper to the circumcised . but . i deny , that the promise was gen. . . as mr. cs. additional promise is , that every believer should be a blessing to his family and posterity , so as that god should ordinarily cast elect children on elect parents ; but that abraham , though then childless , should have innumerable children by natural generation , though he were and his wife aged , and more by believing as he did . . the scripture doth not say , that abrahams circumcision was a seal of the promise gen. . . but a seal of the rightiousness of faith he had , gen. . . it was not a seal of a promise of a thing future , but of a benefit obtained many years before . : i find not any ones circumcision , but the circumcision which abraham had in his own person , stiled the seal of the righteousness of faith , nor to any but him that believes as he did . . that his receiving the seal is not made the reason of abrahams relation of father of all believers , but justification by faith afore he received circumcision . nor do i find that any of mr. cs. assertions is proved from rom. . , . that circumcision was a seal of the covenant , gen. . or of mr. cs. additional promise , or that the application to infants was part of the seal , or that by it mr. cs. imagined promise was confirmed , and therefore this text is impertinently alledged also mr. c. adds ▪ that it was not abrahams faith onely , nor his degree of faith above others which gave him that title , appeareth . because others were as eminent believers as he before him . . there was something given which believers had not , at least in such a way had not before , in reference to which he was so called , therefore it was not for his faith onely , nor the eminency thereof . . there is nothing in faith or the eminency thereof , that could occasion that his name to be given to him ; but it was in reference to something which he was to have as a father this additional promise and the seal thereof , he was the first father that received this blessing which was a blessing upon parents and their children ; and because at least in a great part by vertue thereof the holy seed was to be propagated and encreased . and believers are said to be his seed , because that promise and covenant made to abraham concerning the lords blessing and multiplying his seed , is so much a cause of their being brought forth unto christ ; his ordering his election so as to bestow his blessing thus by families and nations , being that which makes the kingdome of heaven like leaven , one believer ordinarily being the means of the conversion of another . answ. the title [ father of believers ] is a relative , with which abraham was denominated from his fatherhood as the form denominating , and this form denominating was from his begetting justified believers as the foundation , this begetting justified believers i know not how otherwise it should be then by his exemplary faith , and gods declaration of his justification by it ; which the apostle doth plainly intimate , rom. . . by expressing abrahams children in this phrase , walking in the steps of his faith . the object indeed of this faith was the promise gen. . . not mr. cs. imagined promise to other believers , and so the promise was the occasion , and in some sort the cause of the title , as the object may be said to be the cause of the act in somewhat an abusive expression . his personal circumcision was a sign or seal of that whence the title came , the righteousness of faith ; and a token of that covenant wherein god declared it , gen. . , ▪ but circumcision did not make him such , he was such afore circumcision was instituted , gen. . , . nor is it said rom. . . that his receiving circumcision was that he might be the father of the faithfull , but his having righteousness by faith before circumcision made him the father of justified believers of all nations . nor do mr. cs. reasons prove the contrary . for . though others faith might be as strong , yet no ones faith was so ●minently exemplary , the time and other circumstances considered ; and this is apparent from rom. . , , , . . abraham had that exemplary faith , and promise and declaration of god , which no saint had before in the manner i have explained it . . this was fit to denominate him father of believers , as sara the mother of obedient and well doing wives , pet. . . by her exemplary obedience to her husband , and we are termed children of god by following him , ephes . . . wicked men children of the devil by doing his lusts , joh. . . it is true , we are to look to other examples , chiefly christs , heb , , , . yet none of meer men so eminently believed as abraham , and therefore no meer sinfull man is propounded as a copy or pattern equal to him . as for mr. cs. reason , it is not right . for . mr. cs. additional promise in his sense is but a figment . . there is not the least hint in scripture of that as th● reason of the title . . if he were the first father that received this blessing , then it was two thousand years and more afore god ordered his ele●tion as mr. c. imagines , then believing parents had not this blessing before , whereas if there were such a blessing , it was rather before then after abrahams time ; for we find not any setled ministery by which the spiritual seed was multiplied afore abrahams time , therefore it is more likely to have been by believing parents ; but after abrahams time we read of prophets and apostles , priests and teachers appointed to that end . and if abraham were the first who received this blessing , then this was not perpetual , and so the application of the seal to infants not moral , sith the foundation of it beg●n but in abraham . sure i am , this directly crosseth mr. richard baxters conceit of infants visible churchmembership by promise gen. . . which i leave to them to contend about . what mr. c. saith of the reason of the title of abrahams seed given to believers , is quite besides the scripture , rom. . , . gal. . joh. . . and what he saith of one believers being ordinarily the means of conversion of another , is true rather of others , specially preachers of the gospel , then parents , housholders , princes : and i wish it were better considered by him , whether by his dictates all along in making the multiplying of the spiritual seed to be by every believers being a blessing to families and nations , by ascribing ordinarily conversion hereunto ; and that p. . not onely by common providence , or so much by good education and example , but by vertue of a special word of blessing , a creating word of promise to all believers , without which other means of conversion had not had such efficacy and power in turning sinners to god , do not cross the apostles speech , ephes. . . be not contrary to the experience both of the first and continued gathering of the churches of christ , and do not indeed undermine and blow up a select ministery for conversion , as being useless , without assurance of gods blessing , god having provided another way , and ordinarily working by it according to a special promise . and how much this tends to justifie that disorder of every gifted brothers pretended prophesying and teaching in the churches , which is the occasion of the jangling and schisms by which churches are torn asunder and perverted , is easily discernable . but of this onely by the way . what mr. c. hath summed up , p. . hath been examined , and found to be a fardel of mistakes : let 's view the rest . those insinuations which are p. . as if antipaedobaptists did easily part with ancient entailed priviledges , wherein the saints have rejoyced for so many ages ; wanted so much compassion on their children , as not to blot their names out of heaven , or thrust them out of the kingdome of christ into the kingdome of satan ; have been so often discovered to be false and gross abuses , as that were not men resolved to use any artifices to uphold an ill cause by creating prejudices against their adversaries , they would leave them . but mr. c. thinks to prove infant baptism from hence , and thus he argues . sect . lxxx . mr. cs. conceit , as if gen. . . were a command in force to abrahams spiritual seed in the n. t. is shewed to be vain . if this be granted , that the promise made to abraham gen. . especially that part of i● v. . concerning canaan to bee an everlasting possession to his seed bee of such extent , and made also to his spiritual seed of the new testament , it will follow that that command of god in those words next following v. . is to bee meant also of his spiritual seed even in our dayes , and as a command that now lieth upon the same spiritual seed in all generations , in as much as that command is brought in with a therefore , upon the promise made to the same seed in the words v. . answ. hitherto paedobaptists have been wont to deduce infant baptism , from the connexion between the promise gen. . . to be a god to abraham and his seed , and the command v. , , , , . . which it seems mr. c. dares not rest on , but takes another way , and yet seems not very certain what to pitch upon . for whereas p. . to clear the duty of infant baptism , he sums up his suppositions ; that god made to abraham gen. . , . & . , . an additional promise of believers being a blessing to families and nations , that for confirmation of this hee added a seal , to wit circumcision , that the application of it to infants was part of the token of the covenant , thereby that additional promise was sealed , in reference to them abraham was called the father of all them that believe ; who would not think that he would have inferred infant baptism from these suppositions , and the conn●xion between his additional promise and seal ? but in stead thereof , as if all hee had before discoursed had been out of the way hee meant to take , whether because there is a great distance between the command gen. . . and the promise gen. . , . or whether he saw his exposition would not stand good , he now goes another way to work , and thinks to deduce infant baptism from the connexion between the promise gen. . and the precept v. . and his inference is thus made ; the promise is concerning canaan to be an everlasting possession to abrahams seed , ergo to his spiritual seed in the n. t if so , then the command lieth upon the spiritual seed still v. . and this the word [ therefore ] v. . implies . that precept ties onely to keep the covenant by seal●ng with the seal of it , their children , v. ● . explains what seal should be for that time now another is come in the room of it , which is for substance the same , and equivalent to it ▪ parents are bound by the precept gen. . . the former seal ceasing and another substituted to baptise their children . this is as near as i well can gather it , the force of mr. cs. discourse . against which i except , . that the term [ everlasting possession , gen. . . ] doth not prove it to bee meant of another canaan then that part of the earth which the israelites possessed . for besides places before alledged , wherein the terms everlasting and for ever are vsed for a time of some few ages , and shorter , numb . . . god promiseth a covenant of an everlasting priesthood to phinehas and his seed after him ; and yet we know that priesthood was to cease heb. . . it is promised ier. . . that ionadab the son of rechab should not want a man to stand before god for ever , and yet this could be true onely of some ages : therefore mr. cs. reason is of no force from the term [ everlasting ] to infer the extent of that promise to the n. t. nor indeed can the reason be good . for if it were , then god should not promise at all the possession of the earthly canaan in that place : but that is manifestly false ; for the text saith , gen. . . that god would give to abraham and his seed , the land of canaan , wherein abraham was then a stranger : which can be understood of no other then that part of earth which is elsewhere called the land of the canaanites , per●zites , jebusites , &c. i deny not that in the latent sense there may be a promise of eternal life to abrahams spiritual seed , though i find no passage in the n. t. so expounding the promise gen. . . yet sure it is but bold presumption to build any doctrine on an allegory not expounded so by the holy ghost ; and it is in mine apprehension , a great usurpation of the divine prerogative , to impose duties on men consciences by arguments drawn from such devised senses . . that mr. c. builds his inference upon the conjunction [ therefore , gen. ● . ] which though it be so in the english translation , yet is it in hebr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rendred by the tigur . and thou ; by pareus , but thou ; by piscator , thou verily ; which is enough to shew there is no strength in mr. cs. inference , sith there is no firm ground on which it rests . . but were it granted that [ therefore , gen. . . ] were the onely reading , and that the command is to be meant also of abrahams spiritual seed even in our days , yet that the inference of the command , v. . should be onely from the promise v. . or v. . and not also from the promises v. , , i know no go●d reason i● or can be given . . were it that there could be good reason given thereof , yet sith the promise v. . is mixt , containing both spiritual promise ( if mr. c. be in the right ) and promise pecu●iar to the natural seed of abraham , me thinks the precept should be onely to that spiritual seed which is also natural , and not bind the gentile believers , sith they have no part of the promise as it concerns the p●ssession of the earthly canaan , from which the duty is inferred as well , if not onely , as from the promise of the heavenly canaan , . but were all that mr. c. would have here granted , that the term [ everlasting possession , v. . ] proves it meant of the times of the n. t. that [ therefore ] v. ● . proves the command extends to the spiritual seed now , that it is from the promise , v. . or . not from the rest v , , . that it is to gentile believers now , and not peculiar to israel after the flesh , yet sure if the promise b● the reason of the command , and the command● belongs to them to whom the promise belongs , it belongs to no other ▪ and therefore to none but elect persons to whom that promise is made ; no meere professours of faith are bound to keep gods covenant by vertue of the promise , sith no promise is made to them . . were this also granted , that the command is to every professour of faith to keep the covenant as is enjoyned v. . then it remains still as a duty for every professour of christian faith to circumcise his males of eight days old ( which is contrary to christianity ; ) for there is no other thing commanded there then circumcision but to prevent this , mr. c. saith . it is to be observed , that this command of god is primarily fixed upon the general duty , namely , the covenant to be kept , and not upon this or that way of keeping ▪ either by circumci●●ng or baptizing : so as the circumcising of the child came under the command onely upon this , because it was declared then to be the token of the covenant ; and by the words it is supposed , that when it should cease to be the token of the covenant , it should no longer be a duty ; and what else , by the same authority , should be made the token of the same covenant , would be the duty in stead thereof . mark the words , he doth not say , thou shalt therefore circumcise every man-child among you as a token of the covenant between me and you ; for so had that been made the token for perpetuity , to have continued so long as the covenant it self . but . in general he saith , v. . that is , they should observe and perform the token of the covenant whatever that prove to be ; and he addeth in the d. place , v. , . therefore , as i said , as for circumcision , that was a duty onely upon those words , declaring that to be then the token . circumcision is now abolished ▪ yet the command of keeping the token of abrahams covenant is still in force , and binding to abrahams spiritual seed in their generations ; therefore what is now the token of that covenant must be observed in stead thereof . answ. no wise and just law-giver would ever make such a command of a general duty concerning ceremonies or rites then undetermined , but to be determined two thousand years after , thou shalt keep my covenant , that is , what ceremony i shall now appoint thee , or what i shall hereafter appoint when i take that away : such indefinite dis-junctive commands so ambiguous , un-intelligible , to be understood at one time one way , at another time another way , are so like delphick jugling answers , as that i dare not ascribe them to the almighty . many absurdities follow on this conceit of mr. c. which i have before set down . for present these arguments from the text are against it . . there is nothing enjoyned gen. . . but what abraham was enjoyned in his own person to do as well as his seed after him in their generations ; this is proved from the express words , and god said unto abraham , thou shalt keep my covenant therefore , and again , thou and thy seed after thee in their generations , twice is this imposed on abraham distinctly named , and the term [ therefore ] spectially applied to him , and after with difference , from yet with his seed , so that to deny this , is to deny it's light when the sun shines at noon day . but to abrahams person was not enjoyned to observe and perform the token of the covenant whatever that prove to be , for then hee had been bound to baptise , which is absurd , ergo. . this precept is as well to abrahams natural seed in their generations , as to his spiritual seed , for the precept belonging to those to whom the promise belongs , and it cannot be denied the promise v. . to belong to abrahams natural seed , at least such as moses , david , afore christ , it followes they were bound to observe and perform the token of the covenant what ever that p●ove to be , and consequently to baptise , which is absurd . . if this precept be to the spiritual seed of the gentiles , then gentile believers are bound to observe and perform the token of the covenant whatever that prove to be : but circumcision the text it self makes the token of the covenant , ergo , gentile believe●s by this exposition are bound to circumcise . . from v. . that covenant was enjoyned v. . and no other , which is expressed v. . this is proved from the form of words which do plainly shew gods meaning , this is the covenant which yee shall keep , which are as express as words can bee that hee meant no other covenant to bee kept then what is set down v. ● , &c. but that is onely circumcision , therefore no other is there enjoyned v. . but what need i so fully refu●e that which hath no proof at all brought for it , but mr. cs. word ! it 's enough to tell him that it is his dream , and to let the lord mayor and aldermen of london know that they have been enamoured on a vain phantasme . and ●et were it grant●d him and them , it will never serve their turn to prove infant baptism by . for . the command gen. . . is not in these words [ thou shalt keep the token of my covenant therefore ] but [ thou shalt keep my covenant therefore ] and therefore if according to mr. cs. exposition it be a general duty not fixed upon this or that way of keeping , and there are other wayes of keeping the covenant then by keeping the token of the covenant , the words may be meant of other duties then seals , as he cals them of the covenant , as particularly what is required gen. . . to walk before god and be perfect , upon which god promiseth to make his covenant v. . and so the precept gen. . . may be observed without any seal at all . . but if it be limited to the keeping of the token of the covenant , yet it follows not it must be either baptising or circumcising , there being other tokens of the covenant besides these , as the passeover , the lords supper , and therefore i● it command them to observe the token of the covenant what ever it prove to be , it ties them to observe the lords supper , and if it must bee observed ●y this rule here , then it must be given to infants as well as bap●ism . . hence ariseth a further exception , that if it were yeelded , that a token of the covenant indefinite ●s commanded , and baptism meant after circu●cision , yet sure the command ties not to observe baptism after the rule of circumcision , bu● after the institution of baptism in the ●ew testament . and the reason is plain , the command v. . being onely of a general duty comma●●s not the particular rite , neither circumcision nor baptism ▪ therefore there is no rule how to observe baptism gen. . . then v . , ● , ● , . is by mr. cs. ●wn exposition ● rule onely about circumcisi●n , who , and whom , and when ●o circumcise , nor do i think mr. c. dares sa● , that the rule about the manner of circumstances of circumcising , is a rule about the manner of circumstances of ●●ptising , for then the hous●older should bee bound to baptise all his males of eight dayes old , servants , and children , and among them himself if unbaptized , none afore eight days old , no female , none but his own house , he should wash not the face , but the privy member . if mr. c. to serve his turn yet devise another general law about the manner of observing the ●ites of the new testament , besides the particular institutions and examples of christ and his apostles in the new testament — erit mihi magnus apollo , and if mr. c. or any o●her , find a●y institution or example of infant baptim in the new testament , i shall believe they can cut a whetstone with a rasour . . saith mr. c ▪ it is supposed by the words , that when circumcision should cease to be the token of the covenant , it should no longer be a duty , and that circumcision is now abolished . but . if v . be a command still in force , and bind to observe still the token of the covenant what ever it proved to be , and that was circumcision , then it binds still to observe circumcision . it is said , v. . he that is born in thy house , and he that is bought with thy money must needs be circumcised , and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant . now if mr. cs. reasoning be good , the promise is v. . of an everlasting possession , therefore it extends to the spiritual seed even in the new testament ; by the same reason , sith v. . it is said gods covenant shall be in their flesh ( which is by carnal circumcision ) for an everlasting covenant , gods command is in the new testament to abrahams spiritual seed , true believers of the gentiles , that they be circumcised in their flesh , contrary to gal. . . act. . . it is supposed that baptism in the new testament is the token of abra●ams covenant , which is not proved , but is m●nifestly false : for then by it every believer should be assured of the land of canaan , that k●ngs shall come of him , &c. as is promised , gen. . v. , , , , . but that is false , and a meer jewish conceit . . it is said withou● any shew of proof , that by the words it is supposed , that what else besides circumcision by the same authority should be made the token of the same covenant , would be the duty in stead thereof : but neither do the words say , or suppose , that when circumcision should cease to be a token of the covenant , it should no longer be a duty ; nor that what else by the same authority should be made the token of the same covenant , would bee the duty in stead thereof ; there 's not a word that tends to either supposal , nor can be either true . for the jews circumcision was not abolished by any words gen. . but by the apostles declaration , act. . which doth not in the least hint any colection of its ceasing from gen. . but from the calling of the gentiles : nor is the reason there or anywhere else of its ceasing , taken from its ceasing to be the token of abrahams●ovenant ●ovenant , but from the calling the gentiles , the comming of faith , &c. yea , the jewish ●ircumcision still used ceaseth not to be the token of abrahams covenant , and yet the command gen . , ● , ● , , . bind●th not . nor is the other speech true . for by the same authority , according to mr. c. the passeover , the lords supper , were made tokens of the same coven●●t , and yet ●or duties in stead of circumcision . . if when circumcision ceased there was 〈◊〉 be a duty in stead thereof by vertue of the command . gen. . . and because of the promise of an everlasting possession , v. . it must extend to the new testament to the spiritual seed , and be of a spiritual blessing ; by the same reason , circumcision being made an everlasting covenant , v. . the command gen. . . should be of a spiritual keeping of gods covenant , and the circumcision that comes in the stead of circumcision in the flesh should be circumcision of the heart and obedience , which the new testament seems to intimate , rom. . , , . cor. . . phil. . . col. . . . it is supposed , but not proved , that baptism is in stead of circumcision ▪ but mr. c. thinks to prove it , onely by the way he takes in to illustrate his conceit about gen. . . something about the sabba●h , exod. . , . of which he saith thus . the like manner of institution we have concerning the sabbath ; therefore those who deny infant baptism , oftentimes deny the sabbath ; and not without cause , for there is the same reason of both , and we may illustrate the one by the other . the lord intended in time to change the day from the th . day to the first of the week , as he intended in time to change the token of abrahams covenant : therefore in the th . commandment also , the command is not primarily fixed upon the th . or any day to be remembred and kept holy , but upon the general duty , that the rest day of the lord be remembred and kept holy , what ever that day fall to be . remember the sabbath day , that is the rest day , to keep it holy ; and the lord blessed the rest day , and sanctified it . and the remembrance and keeping of the th . day is in the commandment made a duty for this reason , because that was declared to be then the day wherein god had entred into his rest after his making of the world . and upon the same account , when after the travel of his soul , in the new creation , he entred the second time into his rest , as is declared that he did , heb. . , . because that was upon the first day of the week , when he rose from the dead ; therefore by vertue of that command , remember the rest day to keep it holy ; the first day of the week is now to be remembred and kept holy , in as much as that is now the rest day of the lord our god , as formerly the th . day . answ. that those who deny infant baptism do not , or need not deny the sabbath , is shewed in my examen , part . sect . . in my praecursor , sect . . in the second part of my review , sect . . and what mr. c. ha●h said for his opinion of inferring the lords day sabbath from heb. , & . hath been examined before , and shewed insufficient for his purpose . that which now he brings from his conceit of the command , exod . , . is to me very doubtfull , and yet were it certain , would not answer mr. cs. expectation . his conceit is doubtfull to me for these reasons , . because if his conceit were right , when it is said remember the sabbath day , and the lord blessed the sabath day , the term [ sabbath day ] should be conceived as a genus or species comprehending under it the rest day of the jews and the christians , and such other rest days as god should appoint to be observed . b●t against this are these things : . that i find not where the term [ sabbath day ] is meant or applied to any other then the th . day of the week . i grant that other days are termed [ sabbaths , sabbaths of rest , ] levit. , , , . but no where that i yet find , is any day besides the last of the week termed the sabbath day . . the blessing of the sabbath day , exod. . . was the same with the blessing , gen. . . for it is a narration of what god did in the beginning , and that day was the seventh in order after the six days in which he created his work . . me thinks the evangelist luke . ▪ when he saith , they rested on the sabbath day according to the commandment ( which commandment is that exod. . , . ) and that sabbath being by the confession of all the last day of the week , doth plainly expound the fourth commandment of that particular sabbath which was the seventh day in order from the creation , and the last day of the week . i confess there are difficulties from this exposition , concerning the evacuating of the fourth commandment , which being besides my present business , i shall not now insist on , it being sufficient for my present purpose to shew why i conceive mr. cs. exposition doubtfull . . yet were hi● interpretation granted , it would not serve his turn here . for . keeping gods covenant , gen. . . is without any example or colour of reason re●trained to seals ( as they are termed ) of the covenant , and made the genus to circumcision and baptism , as the term [ sabbath ] may be to all festivals . if it were , yet there is not the same reason of circumcision and baptism as of the sabbath and the ●orns day , the one being a moral command , and the other meerly ceremonial if the meaning were gen. . . that a duty were commanded in general to keep the token sign , or seal of the covenant , then it is a command concerning any token of the covenant , the passeover and lords supper , as well as circumcision and baptism ; and if so , then they are to be observed according to the rule there , v. , , , , . and if so , they are to be applied to male infants of eight days old as well as baptism , or according to the rules delivered in the institution of each rite ; and if so , the command gen. . , , , , , . will make nothing for infant baptism , unless it can be proved ou● of the institution and practise in the n. t. but to prevent this , mr. c. saith . sect . lxxxi . the succession of baptism to circumcision and their identity for substance to us is shewed to be unproved by mr. carter , mr. marshal , mr. church , dr. homes , mr. cotton , mr. fuller , mr. cobbet , from col. . , . or elsewhere . ly . for answer further , it is to be considered , that baptism is now in the room of circumcision , and is the very same for substance to us , as circumcision was to them before christ , namely , the token and seal of that covenant made with abraham and his seed , as appeareth gal . , . as many of you as have been baptixed into christ , have put on christ. and if ye be christs , then are ye abrahams seed , and heirs according to the promise . by which we see , that whatever we have as abrahams seed , we have it all in christ ; and what we have in christ , we have it all as abrahams seed ; and that we are baptized into christ ▪ that is our initiation into christ ; and what ever we have as abrahams seed , is sealed unto us in baptism . by which it is evident , that as circumcision was to them , so baptism now to us is the token and seal of that covenant made with abraham and his seed . answ. if this were granted , yet mr. cs. purpose were not obtained , that the application of the seal to infants were justified by the command gen. . , , , , , . for the reasons before given . but because i conceive these assertions contain errours , such as do mislead pae●obaptists , i shall examine mr. cs. allegations , and together with them mr. marshals reply to my examen about his third conclusion , and what i find material in other of my antagonists about the point of baptisms succeeding circumcision . two assertions are laid down here by mr. c. . that baptism is now in the room of circumcision . . that it is the very same for substance to us as circumcision was to jews before christ. neither of which are true , or proved by any thing brought by mr. c. or any other , though this be the chief thing they alledge for infant baptism ; and mr. church , p. . out of dr. whitaker , tels us , all the anabaptists will not be able to resist this argument from circumcision . let 's try the strength of it . the latter position seems to be this , that as circumcision was to the jews , so baptism now to us is the token and seal of the covenant made with abraham and his seed . but this is not all one as to be the very same for substance . to be the very same for substance , is an expression that is scarce capable of good sense ; neither baptism nor circumcision in proper acception being substances , or having substance , except as the subject of them , as all accidents have . as substance is put for essence , so it cannot be said they are the same for substance , sith cutting is one thing , washing another ; and other paedobaptists usually term them different administrations , circum●ision the old , baptism the new . i grant circumcision was the token of the covenant made with abraham and his seed , gen. . but that it was a seal of that covenant in the sense usually meant by paedobaptists , or that any ones circumcision was a seal but abrahams , much less that every ones circumcision was a seal of the covenant of grace to him and his seed is more then i find in scripture , and how often i have proved it false , may be seen in many of my writings , specially the d. part of this review . but that baptism is the seal of that covenant made with abraham and his seed , is not true . for . baptism seals not at all the promise of the land of canaan , gen. . . nor any other of the promises made to the natural seed of abraham . . nor doth it seal the spiritual promises of the comming of christ the calling of the gentiles , as they were made to abraham , and by circumcision assured to be accomplished . for then baptism , as circumcision was , should be a shadow and type of christ to come , and should cease as it did . the evangelical covenant , or the promise o● righ●eousness or eternal life by faith , granted to be in the latent sense comprized in that covenant , i find no where in scripture said to be sealed by circumcision , but rather that circumcision did bind persons to the keeping of the law for righteousness , gal. . , . nor by baptism but by consequent . the scripture rather makes it a seal ( if it must be so called ) of our promise to god , then of gods promise to us . nor is there any thing gal. . . . to prove either of mr. cs. conclusions , that baptism now is the seal of the covenant made to abraham and his seed ; or that it is now in the room of circumcision . for neither is it said that what wee have as abrahams seed , is sealed to us in baptism ; wee are said indeed to put on christ by baptism , but that , whether the putting on be meant of spiritual union , or outward profession it is ascribed to faith , v. ● . and our baptism rather is made our seal to christ , then gods to us : nor is there any thing spoken v. . of any seed of abraham but by faith , & so our baptism cannot seal that covenant which was made to abrahams natural seed , which was the use of circumcision , and therefore that baptism is the seal of that covenant , or in the room of circumcision , is not proved thence . but let 's view what is further said for them or either of them . that our baptism succeeds in the room , place , and use of circumcicision , is the common speech of paedobaptists ; against it , . i argued in my examen , that baptism was a concomitant to circumcision , it was among the jew long afore christ came , and it was by divine appointment , from the baptism of john till christs death , now that which succeeds comes after , is not concurrent . to this mr. m. replied , . by concession , and thence would gather an argument for infant baptism , which is enervated in the d . part of this review , sect . . . saith he , a lord major elect succeeds the old , though the old continue after his election for a time , defence p. . but this is not true , a lord major elect doth not succed till hee bee sworn , in the interim he is no lord major in being , but onely in possibility and probability which may never bee . a successour hath no place while the predecessour is present , jewel . defence of the apol. part . . c. . div . . . i argued that in no good sense can baptism be said to bee in the room and place of circumcision ; for neither in proper acception have either room or place , nor taking room and place for the subjects circumcising and ci●cumcised , baptizing and baptized , is it true ; parents though private persons might circumcise , not so in baptism , women were to be baptized , not so in circumcision . these things are answered by mr. m. either with censures of me , which are but vain , this arg●ing being necessary to clear truth , or by reference to what he had said before , which is also fully refuted in the third part of this review , sect . . i further said , if by room and place be meant the society into which the circumcised and baptised were to be initiated , it is not true . for baptism initiated into the christian , circumcision into the jewish church . to this mr. m. if you mean onely the several administrations , the church of the jewes being christs church under one administration , the christian church the same church of christ under another administration ; you speak truth , but not to the purpose ; my conclusion never said circumcision and baptism do initiate into the same administration of the covenant : but if you mean , that the church of the jews and wee are not one and the same church , you speak pure anabaptism indeed , and contradict the scripture expresly , which every where makes the church of the jewes and the gentiles one and the same church , though under divers administrations . i count it needless to annex any proofs , because i think you dare not de●y it . answ. i do not mean onely the several administrations , if i had so spoken i might have perhaps been judged to speak non-sence , from which i can hardly acquit mr. ms. speeches , that circumcision and baptism do initiate into different administrations of the covenant , and yet they are termed the divers administrations , and the church of jews and gentils by reason of them under divers administrations , which kind of expressions , though frequently used by paedobaptists , yet i can discern little in them but non-sence , or tautologies , or self-contradictings . my meaning was very obvious . that the christian church , properly so called , contradistinct from the jewish visible church is one society , and that baptism enters into the visible church christian , that the visible church jewish contradistinct to the christian is another society , and circumcision entred into it , not into the christian. and these things are so manifest that i thought it needless to bring proofs . who knowes not that circumcised proselytes were in the jewish church visible , and not in the christian , and baptised disciples of christ cast out of the jewish church , who remained among the disciples of christ & in his church ? that the jewish church visible persecuted the christian church visible ? yea this is so apparent that mr. m. both in his sermon p. . speaks to the same purpose ; none might be received into the communion of the church of the jews until they were circumcised ▪ nor in the communion of the church of the christians until they be baptised , our lord himself was circumcised as a professed member of the church of the jews , and when he set up the new christian church , hee would be initiated into it by the sacrament of baptism ; and in his des. p. . i reply that the christian church was not fully set up and compleated with all ordinances of worship , government , officers , till afterwards , is readily granted , but that it was not in fieri in erecting and framing , and that baptism was administred in reference to the christian church , and that by baptism men were initiated into this new administration or best edition of the church , i think no sound divine did ever question ▪ p. . i answer johns baptism and ministry was a praeludium to christ , and was wholly in reference to the christian church , which then began to be moulded ; and though there was not a new distinct church of christianity set up , yet all this was preparing the materials of it , and john did not admit them by baptism as members to the jewish paedagogy , which was then ready to be taken away , but into that new administration which was then in preparing . so that what mr. m. terms in me the speaking of pure anabaptism indeed , is no other then his own , and is so manifest as cannot be denied to be true , nor is at all contradicted by the scripture , which never makes the church christian visible and the jewish to be one and the same , but the church invisible by election and believing of jews and gentils to be one and the same mystical body of christ , ephes. . . now this one thing demonstrates that baptism succeeds not into the place or office of circumcision , sith they had different institutions ; were for churches , as mr. m. speaks , under divers administrations , whereof the one was national gathered by natural descent , or proselytism , the other onely by the preaching of the gospel and faith . as s●lmatius in his apparatus to his book of the primacy of the pope p. , . proves the modern bishops neither to succeed into the place of the apostles , nor the first bishops because of their different institution , name , function and ordina●ion , so in like manner i prove that baptism succeeds not in the place of circumcision , because of its different institution , name , office , and state it hath from it . which i● further proved thus . the command of circumcision was different from the command of baptism , the command of circumcision not inferring baptism ; to which mr. m. replies , now this follows that therefore baptism doth not succeed in the room of circumcis●on ● cannot guess ; the lords day succeeds the th day in being gods sabbath , but certainly the institution of it was long after the other . answ this proves that the one is not s●ated on the command of the other , baptism on the command of circumcision , they having d●fferent commands gen. . , &c. matth. . . and consequently no rule for baptizing in the command of circumcision , nor the command of circircumcising infants a virtual command for baptising , the rules of administring each of these being to be taken from their several commands and approved examples of practise , and no other . lastly , that baptism succeeds circumcision in the same use and end , is more untrue . for the uses of circumcision were so far from being the same with the use of baptism , that they are rather contrary . for the uses of circumcision were to engage men to the use of the rest of the jewish ceremonies , to signifie christ to come out of abrahams family , to be a partition wall between jew and gentile . to this mr. m. answers . these all refer to the manner of administration peculiar to the jews ; i have often granted there were some legal uses of circumcision , it obliging to that manner of administration ; and so they were part of the jewish paedagogy , which is wholly vanished , and therein circumcision hath no succession ; but baptism succeeds it as a seal of the same covenant under a better administration , as a set and constant initiating ordinance : onely i wonder that you say circumcision did initiate into the church of the jews , or rather the family of abraham . answ. mr. ms. grant , that the uses were part of the jewish padagogy , and that it is wholly vanished , and therein circumcision hath no succession , doth infer that circumcision and all its uses are vanished , and have no succession : for it had no uses but what did belong to the jewish paedagogy , the initiating was into the jewish church , or rather the family of abraham , ( which speech i used as conceiving that term more comprehensive and more proper , in as much as the family of abraham was it into which circumcision did initiate first afore the people of abrahams house were termed the church of the jews , ) and that covenant which circumcision did signifie and confirm , was peculiar to the jews , although christ were typified by circumcision and righteousness by faith in the latent sense , promised in the covenant , gen. . which yet no more proves baptism to succeed circumcision then to the cloud , sea , manna , water out of the rock , the ark of noah , the passeover , the sacrifices of the law , high priest , washings , &c. and if then this be all the use that baptism succeeds circumcision in , to confirm the covenant so far as it was spiritual , it succeeds as well to all these , and so doth the lords supper to circumcision , & from the comands of those rites , a rule might be drawn to administer baptism by , as well as from circumcision . piscator in his observat . on numb . , . makes baptism to succeed circision and the purifyings to be often iterated , but the truth is it succeeds to neither , christ is instead of all these col. . . and succeeds to them , and to say that baptism succeeds to the use of circumcision , as it signified the gospel promise to abraham , must make it to signifie christ yet to come in the flesh ; for which reason i say still boldly , though it were ( as i think it is not ) against all divines and churches since the apostles time , that to say baptism succeeds in the room and place of circision , is a proposition erroneous and very dangerous . mr. m. saith to this p. . . that hee had confuted before what i say , that the covenant with abraham is not the same with the new-covenant but in part , to which there is a full reply before , in all the sections of the third part of this review , wherein the covenant with abraham is defended to be mixt , to wit , the th , th , th , th . . that the cloud , sea , manna , water of the rock &c. were extraordinary signes , not standing sacraments to bee used in all generations , and yet so far as god hath made them parallel , what hurt is there in saying baptism succeeds them ? to which i answer , . the sacrifices and purifyings were as much standing sacraments , and that in more generations then circumcision and the passeover . . that there is this hurt to mr. ms. cause , that if he grant that baptism succeeds to them as well as circumcision , then a rule may be taken from the use of those in the administration of baptism as well as from circumcision , which is onely proved from the succession of the one to the other , nor is it wildly said by mee , if the confirming or signifying the same covenant , prove baptism to succeed circumcision , it proves the lords supper to succeed it , which according to mr. m. hath the same general state , signification and use , from which alone mr. m. and other pae●obaptists gather the succession of baptism to circumcision , from col. . , . & not from the particular use of initiating , and if so a rule from circumcision to give the lords supper as succeeding it to infants , as well as baptism may be drawn , which were absurd in mr. ms. conceit . i have hitherto shewed the falshood of paedobaptists assertion about baptisms succession to circumcision ; let 's review their proofs of it . mr. m. in his defence p. . saith , from that clear place col. . . . i made it evident , not only that we have the same thing signified by circumcision , while we are buried with christ in baptism , but also that the apostle plainly sees baptism in the same state and makes it of the same use to us as circumcision was to the jews ; christ onely to them and us also is the author of spiritual circumcision . the circumcision of the flesh was the sacrament of it to them ; and now that is abolished , we have baptism to seal the same thing . answ , though i deny not that we have the same thing which was signified by circumcision , while we are buried with christ by baptism ; yet i deny that the apostle plainly or obscurely sets baptism in the same state , or makes it of the same use to us as circumcision was to the jews : nor do i find any thing in the apostles words from whence it may be gathered , that the circumcision of the flesh was the sacrament of it to them , except it be meant onely of christs personal circumcision . for it is plain , that what is said v. . that they were circumcised with the circumcision not made with hands , in the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh , in or through the circumcision of christ , is expresly applied to christs circumcision , and not to the circumcision of any other person but christ : nor can be , sith of no mans circumcision besides christs is it true , that we are in or by it circumcised with the circumcision made without hands , in putting●off the body of the sins of the flesh : nor are we thus circumcised by christs circumcision as the sacrament , token , or seal of spiritual circumcision , as that onely which sacramentally represented it , or as a seal of the covenant in which it was promised ; but as the effectual pattern , according to which by divine predestination we are to be conformed , rom. . . in whom we are said to be buried , raised , v. . quickned , set in heavenly places , ephes. . concrucified ; gal. . . fellow sufferers , rom. . . phil. . . whence i argue , if our baptism be hence gathered to succeed in the same state and use with circumcision , then it succeeds to christs circumcision , for none other is here meant ; and if so , then each believers baptism is the effectual pattern by vertue of which we have spiritual circumcision . but this is so absurd , that it is not much short of blasphemy , therefore the inference of baptisms succession to circumcision from hence is without any ground , and i did truly say in my examen , that it was an ignis fatuus that hath mis-led men in gathering it hence . nor is it true , that there is a word in the text that intimates , that either our baptism seals any thing to us , except our union and conformity to christ , to which though circumcision of the heart be antecedent , concomitant , or consequent , yet it is not the same ; and therefore the sealing of the same thing by baptism as by circumcision , is not rightly hence inferred . as for what mr. c. saith , p. , . that there is the same spiritual fruit of circumcision and baptism , those onely who are in christ have it , because they have it by the circumcision of christ , and the like of baptism ; that the benefit and fruit of circumcision , which is the circumcision made without hands , they had by being buried and risen with christ in baptism and therefore that they were compleat in christ , is all granted , and confirms my argument against the imagined sucession of ordinary circumcision to ordinary baptism , and of their being the same in substance and use . for hereby it is plain , that what spiritual fruit is ascribed to circumcision , it is not ascribed to ordinary circumcision , no nor to abrahams , ( notwithstanding what mr. c. would deduce from rom. . , . ) but to christs : nor is the spiritual fruit , col. . , . ascribed to baptism , but to the burial and resurrection of christ represented in baptism . as for what mr. c. adds as the apostles meaning , that they were compleat in christ in the ordinances of the gospel , is his own fiction ; for the apostle is so ●ar from saying we are compleat in christ in the ordinances of ●he gospel , that as i prove , exam. p. , . out of the text , the words of beza , aretius , ( whose sayings are by mr. m. in his defence , p . owned as true , ) and mr. ms. own words , that the apostle asserts our compleatness in christ without any outward ordinance either of law or gospel . and this i think mr. c. himself dare not deny . for sith ●he compleatness is in spiritual benefits , mortification , renovation , remission of sins , as mr. c. acknowledgeth , if we have our compleatness in christ by baptism , we have these spiritual benefits by it , and we have them not without it . what mr. m. saith , p. ● . of my abuse of aretius , is answered in my apology sect . ● . p. . aretius his testimonies out of the fathers cited p. . prove nothing concerning the meaning of col. . , . though they shew that some of the ancients conceived of baptisms succession to circumcision as he did . to what i argued in my examen , p. . that by this doctrine , that baptism is in stead of circumcision , the apostles argument for the disanulling the jewish ceremonies , both here and heb. . & . . & . in the epistle to the galatians , ch . . & . and ephes. . is quite evacuated , who still useth this argument to prove the abolition of the ceremonies of the law , because they have their complement in christ , not in some new ordinance added in stead of them ; for if there be need of other ordinances ( besides christ ) in stead of the old , then christ hath not in himself fulness enough to supply the wa●t of them , and this abolition is not because of christs fulness , but other ordinances that come in stead of the abolished ; and though our ordinances may be said to imitate theirs , yet christs onely succeeds them . mr. m thus saith . i answer , it is very true ▪ that whoever should plead ( as mr. c. doth ) that we have any of our compleatness in any outward ordinance would evacuate the apostles argument , but yet they by his own appointment help us to apply this compleatness , they argue not that all our compleatness is not in christ , christ onely succeeds all the jewish ordinances as the body doth the shadow : we plead not , as the papists do , that the jewish sacraments were types of ou●s , they were types onely of christ ; but yet ours succeed them to be like signs of the covenant of grace , and so the apostle doth in this place . to which i reply . . if it be contrary to the apostle to plead that we have any of our compleatness in any ou●ward ordinance , then it is contrary to ●he apostle to make baptism and the lords supper to succeed circumcision and the passeover , sith ●hat onely col. . , &c. is made to succeed them wherein we are compleat without them . . what mr. m. means by applying the compleatness of christ , and how baptism and the lords supper help us to apply this compleatness , i do not readily understand . i conceive it applied no otherwise then by faith , nor they to help any otherwise then by exciting it , which i am sure they do not to infants , and so baptism of infants is no help to them to apply the compleatness of christ. . though baptism and the lords supper argue not that all our compleatness is not in christ , yet the doctrine of mr. m. that baptism is in the same state , and of the same use to us as circumcision was to the jews , that it succeeds into its place , doth so a●gue as i have shewed . . if christ onely succeeds all the jewish ordinances , as the body succeeds the shadow , then christ onely is made col. . , . the successour to circumcision : for there is no other succession there spoken of , as appears by the phrases of compleatness in him as the head , v. . circumcised by the circumcision of christ , v. . buried with him , risen with him , v. . quickned together with him , v. . dead with him from the rudiments of the world , v. . so as that by holding him as the head being knit together the whole body increaseth with the increase of god , v. . and chiefly that which is said v. . which are a shadow of things to come , but the body is of christ. . if the jewish sacraments were not types of ours , then the reason of their ceasing from the succession of ours is taken away , for that rests onely on this , that they were types , and ours the truth . . if ours succeed onely in that they are like signs of the covenant of grace , then they succeed all the sacrifices , washings , annointings of the law as well as these : we may conclude succession of baptism to noahs ark , &c. but in the administration of an ordinance we are not to be ruled by bare analogy framed by our selves or delivered by the spirit of god , but by the institution of god. to this mr. m. saith , defence , p. . i answer , but when those analogies framed by the spirit of god , are agreeable to the use and end of gods institution , we are to be ruled by them ; and the apostle shews that 's our case here . answ. . if this were true , then to tie baptism to the eighth day , to be of all in the family , &c. should according to mr. ms. s●ppositions be right . . there 's not a word in the apostle col . to shew that ours succeed the jewish sacraments to be like signs of the covenant of grace . yea , i urged that the apostle rather resembles burial to circumcision then baptism , and makes the analogy between circumcision and christs burial , and cited the words of chrysostome and theophilact on the place to that purpose , exam p. . to this mr. m. where i● circumcision compared to burial , and wherein i pray you lies the analogy between them ? i reply , . i said not circumcision is compared to burial , but that col. . , . burial rather resembles circumcision then bap●ism , and the analogy is between them . which is true , sith buried with him , v. . answers to circumcised by his circumcision , v. . and the analogy is , that as the one so the other is the effectual pattern of our mortification ; and not between our burial and baptism , as mr. m. and to this are the words cited by me apposite . nor are the words of chrysostome , that we put off sins in baptism , for mr. ms. purpose , to prove analogy conceived by the apostle between the jewish common circumcision , or our burial and our baptism . . i said baptism is named with faith , col. . . as the means whereby we have communion with christ , and are compleat in him . exam. p. . to this mr , m. but is not this the same sense with mine ? but your syllogism or mighty consequence i deny , baptism is named because it is one of the means of christians being exempted from the schoolmaster , and come to be ingraffed into christ , and to be compleat in him , therefore it doth not succeed in the room and place of circumcision , nay rather therefore it doth . to this is replied in my apology , sect . . p. . that mr. m. perverts my words , my arguing being no other then this , baptism is alledged as one of the means whereby we come to be compleat in christ , ( which mr. m. denies not , but avows as his sense , ) therefore there was another reason besides the succession of it into the place of circumcision , why the apostle there mentions it , which mr. m. denied . and this consequence ( however mr. m. in his flout term it ) is good , except it were true , that every means whereby we are compleat in christ succeeds circumcision , the contrary whereof is confessed by mr. m. in acknowledging faith to be one of the means whereby we are compleat in christ , col. . . which yet succeeds not circumcision , according to him . mr. ms. censure of my speech , that the misunderstanding col. . , . was an ignis fatuus , as arrogant , is shewed in my apology , sect . . p. . to be injurious : and what he saith in his defence , p. . of my position , that circumcision was not a token of the covenant to the jews children , is another injury , in that he leaves out the words [ in sone sense ] which was set down a little before in my appendix , p. . which being added , there is nothing in them contrary to the text , gen. . but enough thence to prove my speech true . what mr. c. urgeth p. , from cor. . , . of the lords supper succeeding the passeover , that the apostle could not have expressed by such phrases taken from the passeover the celebrating the lords supper , had not the passeover and the supper been the same for substance , is not right . for . that by keeping the feast is meant eating the lords supper , is not proved ; and beza , diodati , the new annot. with others , paraphrase the words thus , let us lead our life . . our obedience , gifts , doing good , are termed sacrifices , yet these phrases prove not them to be the same in substance in mr. cs. sense . . christ is expresly in the text cor . . termed our passeover , therefore the text makes the sacrifice of christ to suc●eed the passeover ; not the lords supper . but mr. drew , p. ● ▪ thinks to prove the succession of baptism to circumcision , because as he saith in my exercit. p. . &c. i readily grant that baptism is an ordinance set up by the appointment of christ to serve for the same spiritual ends that circumcision did . to which i say , that all i grant there , is , that circumcision and baptism signified and confirmed the promise of the gospel , but i added , according to different forms and function , and i ascribed no more to circumcision then to the paschal lamb , the rain of mannah , &c. but this is not the same with that which mr. drew injuriously imposeth on me . yet if it were , it would not prove baptisms succession to circumcision , as is before shewed , and if it did it would as well prove its succession to the passeover , manna , the water out of the rock , &c. which hee will not assert i think . the rest which hee saith , about col. . , . is the same with what others say , and hath been answered in my examen part . . sect . . in my appendix , and in this section and in other parts of this review . as for mr. cotton , who is one of those to whose writing mr. drew refers us for proof of baptisms succession to circumcision , from col. . , , . his conceit is grounded upon this mistake in hi● book of baptism p. . that the apostle pleadeth our compleatness in christ , notwithstanding our want of circumcision , in that wee en●oy the like fulness of benefit in our baptism as the jews did in their circumcision , which hath been often shewed to bee false . for there is no mention of a benefit to the jews , but to the colossians , and this benefit was not bare outward circumcision , or any outward church priviledge , but the inward circumcision in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh , and this not by the jews circumcision , but christs circumcision in his own person , nor is it true that the fulness of benefit there is ascribed to ordinary baptism , nor can bee rightly so conceived . and what mr. cotton saith in the same place against those who say that baptism being granted to succeed circumcision , yet it follows not infants must bee baptized , that succession is the substitution of later things for former things in the same sub●ect , if the subject be changed , so far as there is a change of the subject there is no succession , and therefore if infants be not baptized as they were circumcised , baptism succeeds not circumcision , is false and against himself . . false , for we know though there were a law made that after infant kings al should be adult , and after women queens , all should be male kings , yet they should be true successors , as king james to queen elizabeth , henry the th to edward the th or henry the th . . against himself , for thereby is proved baptism doth not succeed circumcision , sith there is a change in the subject , women being baptized , who were not circumcised , and parents or masters of families being to circumcise , but preachers of the gospel onely to baptize . as for what dr. homes ( to whom mr. drew also refers ) in his annimadvers . on my exercit. p. , . brings to prove baptisms succession to circumcision , it 's upon alike mistakes . for . it is not true that the apostles scope col. . . in mentioning baptism , is to answer the objection dr. homes imagins , and to shew that we are as compleat as the jews , because christ hath appointed another sign , to wit baptism , in stead of the jews circumcision . . nor doth the apostle affirm or intimate , that if we have not baptism in the room of circumcision to us believers and our infants , we are not so compleat as the jews , by christ. . nor is it true that the apostle doth call off the colossians from circumcision by the consideration of their baptism as in the room of circumcision . . nor doth the apostle make such analogy between baptism and circumcision as dr. homes saith he doth . . nor if hee did , would this prove such a succession of baptism to circumcision as paedobaptists would have , that the command of infant circumcision must be a command for infant baptism . mr. thomas fullers argumentation for the succession of baptism to circumcision in all the essentials of it , as he speaks in his infants advocate ▪ ch . . is alike vain . for there is no inconvenience that i know , to say no ordinance doth succeed circumcision ; his talk of sacraments being pillars of the church , is but phrasifying instead of disputing , nor do i know how it can bee true . nor do i know , that all or any graces evangelical are conferred in baptism or were in circumcision of the jewes , much less that the conferring of such grace , is essential to either of them ; nor is it true , that col. . , . christians are said by baptism to bee spiritually circumcised ; and by the same proportion the believing jews may bee said by circumcision to bee spiritually baptized : for it is not by baptism but before it , that regularly persons are spiritually circumcised , nor were the believing jewes by circumcision to be spiritually baptized but before it ; nor is there any such affinity , much less essential sameness between them , as that a command about the one should bee a command to us about the other . nor do i finde any thing in that author which needs further answer , hee having added nothing to the cause , but some peculiar words and expressions without any strength . what mr. cobbet hath about this point just. vindic part . . c. . sect . , , . i shall further examine . sect. . he sets down eight propositions , which if they were all granted , yet they do not prove that point , which is in question , that an a●gument from analogy between meer positive ceremonies , ri●es or sacraments is of validity , so as that it may be concluded thus ; so it was in a ceremony of the old testament , therefore it must be so in the new , without any other precept or example therein : concerning the insufficiency thereof , i have disputed so largely in the d . part of this review sect . , . as that i need to say no more here . nor doth any thing mr. c. brings concerning the fulness of the scripture , christ or the apostles arguing , prove such kind of arguing good in meer positive rites , however matters of faith and manners are determined and proved by them from the old testament . nor should it bee granted ( as it is not ) that there is the same main ground of circumcision and baptism , yet would it follow the rule of the one is a rule about the other , without the like institution . yet what mr. c. hath set down as the main ground that god would once have his covenant of grace ( which he means p . of the very covenant of saving grace , not of any meer outward covenant ) to be to the whole church and church seed ; and the rest of his hypotheses , pag. . are so fully shewed to bee mistakes in this review , that i think it needless actum agere . and for the tenth section in which he makes a tedious paraphrase , and dictates many things without proof , concerning col. . , , . they proceed upon the mistakes above shewed , as if the apostle answered this objection , if gentile believers have not an initiatory seal for them and their children they should not bee so compleat as the jewes in outward ordinances , and that the apostle answers that they have baptism in stead of circumcision . he● himself more truly saith , pag. . that baptism is named col. . . as an outward mean whereby bee inchurched gentiles especially , come ordinarily to have communion with christ , and to be compleat in him , and therefore not in outward ordinances ; nor by baptism can it bee said wee are compleat in outward ordinances , sith himself makes it onely the initiatory seal , but compleatness is not in the enjoyment of the initiatory onely , but of all ordinances . as for what hee saith section eleven , for the succession of baptism to circumcision , that it is sufficient to prove it that they agree in their common author , sacramental nature , and end ( which yet is false ▪ ) the answer is good that these things prove it not , sith there are the same or more parities of baptism and the passeover , and more disparities between baptism and circumcision , which are sufficient to shew that the command concerning the one is not a command concerning the other . for i● the command bind to baptize infants , it binds onely to baptize males at eight dayes old , and not afore ; nor is it any answer to say , the command of circumcision binds in the substantials of it though not in the circumstantials ; ●or first , if the command bind it binds in every point as well as in one . . the state of infancy is as much a circumstance as the eighth day . . in the command of circumcision , i know not any thing which may bee termed substantial , unless hee mean the act of cutting off the fore-skin of the flesh , which hee will not have us tied ●o , for then wee must not baptize our infants but circumcise them . as for what hee speaks of the command to seal with an initiatory seal of the covenant indefinite believers and their children , it is a meer figment , as hath been before shewed . there is nothing else that i conceive needfull to be added in this place , i go on to finish the rest . sect . lxxxii . notwithstanding mr. cs. allegations of acts . , . cor. . . rom. , ●● mark. . . acts . . matth. . . the n. t. appear● to be silent about mr. cs. additional promise , and infants baptism . having more largely noted the unproved dictates and mistakes of mr. carter hitherto . i shall be briefer in the rest ●o what he saith pag. , , , . there needs no more to bee said but this , that the blessing upon posterity which mr. c imagines , m●ght have been signified , though adult persons onely had been circumcised , we have plain scriptures which warrant us to alter circumcision wholly and abolish i● , besides which we know no other command gen● ● ▪ the texts acts . . gal. . do as plainly shew that baptism is to be of none but believers , and that but adul● persons are to 〈◊〉 bap●ized , ●s that women are to be baptized , i● circumcision were a priv●ledge acts . . we have abundant warrant to take it away ; nor doth the text rom . hinder it , which is not meant of outward priviledges , which are common to elect and reprobate ( as the priviledge of circumcision was ) but of saving grace , to wit election and effectual calling , and therefore is palpably abused by mr. c. to prove that god takes not away the outward priviledge from his people now , which was by circumcision , we justly require a precept or example in the n. t to warrant infant baptism , no command of a meer positive right of the old testament , being a rule to us about a meer positive right of the new , as is fully proved by me in the d . part of this review , sect. , . what mr. c. saith pag. , , , , . that the n. t. is not altogether silent in this matter , because of peters words , acts . , . is false . for neither is there a word acts . , . of mr. cs. imagined additional promise of making every believer a blessing , so as to cast ordinarily elect children on elect parents , nor that the application of the initial seal is to signifie this promise , nor that the application of it to infants is of the substance of this covenant nor that the command gen. . . is yet a command that lieth upon abrahams spiritual seed now in the new testament , nor that baptism is now in the room of circumcision , and is the very same in substance for us , nor if mr. cs. exposi●ion were granted , would any of these follow , but the contrary . for first , if the promise bee the same wi●h that vers . . out of joel , yet sure it is not the same with mr. cs. additional promise , the promise of receiving the holy ghost being not all one with this , that the parent believing shall bee a blessing to his posterity as mr. c. fancies , the promise of receiving the holy ghost being of a thing terminated on the receiver , but mr. cs. additional promise of a thing convayed to posterity , the promise of receiving the holy ghost beeing as well , if not chiefly to the children , acts. . , . but the additional promise of mr. c. is onely to the parent . . were the promises the same , yet this would not serve mr. cs. turn , but bee against him . for if the promise acts . . be the same with that vers . , . then it is a promise to children of dreaming dreames , seeing visions , and prophesying , but this cannot be meant of infant children , it neither was so fulfilled in the apostles days , nor in any after time , it would be a prodig● to hear an infant prophesie , much less is it true of the ordinary gifts of the spirit , v. . the limitation also is against him , for if it be true which he saith p. . that peter maketh the gentiles case parallel with the jews , and saith that the same promise did also belong to them yet with the same limitation , namely , to so many of them onely as the lord our god shall call , implying that it is an effectual call to faith and repentance , that gave to any such a priviledge , either jew or gentile , and p. . the words of the apostle cannot be meant , that the promise did belong to them and their children onely as jews , abrahams natural seed , but as believers , and upon their conversion ( which i conceive true ) then it is false that it belongs to infants as the natural seed of their parents , though believers , and therefore the promise act. . . is not mr. cs. additional promise , which is of believing parents being a blessing to posterity , nor is the promise or imagined priviledge consequent thereupon , belonging to infants until they repent and believe . . that which hee saith p. . that act. . . is an invitation to repenting and believing jews to be baptized they and their children , is so far from being for his purpose , that it is manifestly against it . for if the invitation be of every one to repent first , and then every of them so repenting to be baptized , then it is not an invitation to infants to be baptized , nor of parents to baptize them . yea , this is so apparent in the text that the very words are directed expresly to those persons who were pricked in their hearts , and said men and brethren what shall we do , that they should be every of them baptized , v. . without so much as mentioning their children in the invitation . nor doth any thing after done by them , v. . &c. shew that they understood that they were directed by peter to cause their children , whether infant or adult , to be baptized upon their repentance and believing onely . yea , if as mr. c. saith , john baptist had cleared that point , matth. . , . that to the jews as abrahams seed natural baptism did not belong , it belongs not now to a believers seed . but the truth is , mr. cs. exposition is in many things false or uncertain . it is uncertain whether the promise acts . . be the same with that which is mentioned v. , . or that v. . of which i have spoken enough before . it is false that the promise acts . , . can be meant of ordinary gifts . for the apostle saith v. . that what was spoken by the prophet was the thing they then saw performed , which was speaking with tongues v. , . the great things of god , which was extraordinary ; and if the promise v. , . had included ordinary gifts , it had been impertinently alledged to shew the fulfilling of it then in those miraculous gifts . nor doth mr. c. prove it to be so meant . for . though the last days in scripture signifie all that space of time from the comming of christ in the flesh to the end of the world , tim. . . tim. . . heb. . . & . . yet it follows not the promise is yet in fulfilling , it is sufficient to verifie the prophecy that it hath been fulfilled in any part of the last days . . nor is there any thing v. . to prove the prophesying there to be a distinct thing from the prophesying , v. . or prophesying in either to be an ordinary gift , or common to all gods servants . nor do rev. . . compared rev. . . or rev. . . prove that every believer hath the spirit of prophecy . for johns suffering for the testimony of jesus may be understood , yea being distinct from the word of god rev. . . seems to be meant of his giving testimony of jesus as an apostle or prophet extraordinary ; and the having the testimony of jesus , rev. . . being distinct from keeping the commandments of god , imports the testimony there meant to be of that which was testified by extraordinary revelation , against which the dragon warred , and a blessing is to the observers , rev. . and that rev. . . is meant of those who had extraordinary revelation , is manifest , in that rev. . . where the same thing is expressed , and there what is rev. . . thy brethren which have the testimony of jesus , is , thy brethren the prophets , and the prophets are distinct from them that keep the words of that book . besides , if every believer had the spirit of prophecy , then every believer should be a prophet , and should be set by god in the church next after apostles , afore teachers ; which doth expresly gainsay the apostle , cor. . , . and fully proves the prophesying mentioned cor. . to be no ordinary gift , which every believer hath . nor doth it follow , the testimony of jesus is the spirit of prophesie , therefore every testimony of jesus is the spirit of prophesying , the speech being indefinite , not universal ; and the words being the speech of the angel , shewing wherein he was fellow-servant to john , plainly intimate he meant it of the special testimony of jesus which he was fellow servant to john in , as the title of the book shews , rev. . . the revelation of jesus christ which god gave to him to shew to his servants what things must shortly be , and sending signified them by his angel to his servant john. i omit what piscator conceives in his scholie on the place , that the words are to be read in an inverted order thus , the spirit of prophesie is the testimony of jesus , that is , which is received from him . nor is it true , that the promise ioh. . . is to all believers , however preachers do so often misapply it , but to the apostles . and it may be doubted , whether the words ioh . , . be meant of all believers , or of those that were strong or we●l instructed by john as his li●tle children , v. . and if it be meant of all believers , yet it must be understood with limitation of all things necessary to salvation , or of all things needfull to withstand the seducers he mentions , not a word ●hat mentions their prophesying . nor doth joh. . . prove every believer a prophet ; nor may it be gathered from thes. . , . that such preaching , which we must suppose may bring us something that is not good , is called prophesying , but that something may be termed prophesying which is not ; and therefore the spirits are to be tried whether they be of god , for many false pro●hets are gone out into the world , as john speaks , epist. . . nor is it true , that peter exhorts the jews , act. . . to repent , that is , to go on as they had begun . for though they had some horrour of conscience , v. . yet not repentance , unto which peter exhorts , v. . nor doth any word used by peter intimate that they had begun to repent . and what mr. c. adds to the clause to as many as the lord our ●od shall call , not onely to them , but also to their children , is too bold dealing with the scripture , there being not a word in the text which implieth that addition , and therefore is not justified by his allegations of psal. . . prov. . . what other arguments for mr. cs. purpose have been urged from act. . , . have been largely answered already . i go on . mr. c. adds , p. , , , , , , , , , . a large discourse ▪ in whi●h . there is p. . a confession which doth invincibly prove infant baptism to be will worship , and his speech false which he used p. ● . that the new testam●nt is not altogether silent in this matter ; and it is this . whoever shall confine himself onely to the n. t. to find out the law of gods worship and service , he shall never find it , not onely as to infant baptism but also to all other ordinances whatsoever for if infant baptism be not to be found in the n. t. then the n. ● . is altogether silent about that matter : and if it be not there , then it is will worship , there being no law about a meer positive rite or ceremony in force to us christian gentiles now , which was giv●n to the jews in the old testament , as i have proved , exam. par . . sect . . pag. , . review , par . . sect . , . . there is in the same p. . a false and dangerous speech , that christ spake so little in his n. t. concerning the law which is the rule which he hath set for his service of his house ; namely , because he could look upon that , for the greatest part , to be done already , to wit , in the old testament ▪ which if true , then the laws about the ceremonies of the jews are our rule , we are still under the yoke of bondage , popish , prelatical ceremonies are still justifiable , a bishop or archbishop above presbyters and bishops , appeal to synods , their power to decide controversies , to excommunicate , a national church constitution , are still to be retained , for these , or that which was proportionable to these , was according to the rule of gods house then . nor is there a word in any of the scriptures which mr. c. alledgeth , for this his purpose . not luke . . the meaning whereof is not , as mr. c. fancies , that in the times before john was the season to instruct men in the law , since in the gospel ; but as it is mat. . . all the prophets and the law until john prophesied , that is , foretold of christs comming as future ; but the kingdome of god , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , luke . . from then is evangelized , or told as good tidings already begu● to be , a● diodati annot . on mat. . . johns prerogative above the precedent prophets is , that they have onely foretold and described things to come ▪ but he hath delivered the present salvation , and in him is begun the evangelical ministery , and the legal and figurative ministery is ceased . yet if mr. cs. exposition were allowed , it prov●s not that in the law or old testament the rule about the service or meer positive worship of god in the n. t. is set , but rather the contrary ; for if that were the season then for it , and now is the season for another thing , it follows , that it is unseasonable to take a rule for gods hou●e in meer positive worship from the old testament . the alledging psal. . . by mat. . , , . proves not that a rule for rituals is to be fe●cht from the old testament , although it may be usefull for to prove doctrines about the gospel , gods providence , moral duties , &c. though it be granted which mr. c. concludes pag. . the general nature of the law to bee one and the same to the people of god under both testaments , ( which is easily yeilded sith the general nature is invariable , and the same to all for ever ) yet it followes not that the laws about ●eremonies are the same to the people of god under both testaments , if so , we are still under the yoke of circumcision and the legal rites , and under the law. and indeed mr. c. hath in this thing vented many false and dangerous speeches , that to us in christ the law hath been as it were incorporated with the gospel , as thereby become part of the covenat of grace the law given by 〈◊〉 is called the testa●ent of christ , by●hrist ●hrist himself ▪ that the old testament , this the new , and both confirmed by his bloud ; that in the type by the bloud of bulls and goat● th●● in the answer type by his own bloud . and yet he sa●th , the apostle r●m . ● applieth deut. ● , to the gospel in opposition to the law , as in it self considered without the gospel , or as a covenant of works ; which words are contrary to his former . for if the gospel be opposed to the law by the apostle , as it is in it self considered is without the gospel , is a covenant of works , then the law is not incorporated with the gospel , or thereby become part of the covenant of grace , nor is the law given by moses called the testament of christ , nor confirmed by his bloud , but the bloud of bulls and goats , ill termed christs bloud , being opposed heb. . . in like manner it is a dangerous assertion which he hath pag. . in the covenant of workes the law was , do this and live ; but in the covenant of grace it is , do this in the strength of christ and live : which if right , we live , that is , are justified ( for so his words following explain it ) by the doing the works of the law in the strength of christ ; which ( if i do understand it ) is the very doctrine of bellarmine , tom. . de justific . l. . c. . and other papists , saying the apostle excludes not works done after grace by faith from justification , but afore faith : which protestant divines commonly refute , as ●areus in his castigations , ames in his bellarm. enerv . chamier , tom. . paustr. lib. . c. . abbots defence of perkins , p. . rivet . sum contr ▪ tract . . qu. . pemble vind . fidei , sect . . c. . sect . . c. , . alledging the apostles words concerning abraham , who had not to glory before god , nor was justified by works , rom. . , , &c. and me thinks mr. carters next words contradict his former , when he saith , our state and condition as subjects of his kingdome , dependeth not upon our keeping the law but upon free grace in christ by faith . but of this by the way . that which he alledgeth about the term gods house , tim. . . cor. . . and separate , act. . . cor. . . that we cannot understand them without the old testament , though it were true , yet proves no more but this , that in explaining the meaning of words allusive to things there described , the old testament is necessary ; but not that which is to be proved , that in observing the rites of the n. t. we are to fetch rules and commands by way of analogy from the ritual commands of the old . mr. c. adds , p , , , , , , , , , , , , . something more about the texts cor. . . rom. . . mar. . . acts . . mat. . . which having been so largely handled in the former parts of this review , i need onely to refer the reader thither . yet i add , it is but said without any proof , that cor. . . that children are termed holy , because they come under the word of blessing from god , in as much as that word was confirmed not onely unto abraham , but also to all believers , gen. . , . that which god blesseth he sanctifieth , and separateth from that which is common or unclean . for . there 's not a word brought to shew that ever any child is in scripture termed holy by reason of such an indefinite promise to believing parents . . nor that the scope , analysis , allusion in the text ▪ leads to such an exposition . . nor doth it follow , that because god blessed and sanctified the sabbath day therefore what god blesseth he sanctifieth : god blessed noah and his sons , gen. . . yet all of them were not sanctified ; yea , many texts of scripture apply blessings to unsanctified persons , psal. . . ierem. . . much less is it true , that who is termed holy or sanctified is blessed , the unbeliever is in the text sanctified as the children holy , yet not blessed . . that this exposition is farre from the apostles scope and arguing , is so largely demonstrated in the first part of this review and elsewhere , that i judge it surperfluous to refute further these unprooved dictates heere . i deny not that the jews rom. . . are termed natural branches by birth according to the covenant of god with abraham , the gentiles the wild olive by nature as neglected by god , yet it is not true that ever the gentiles ingraffed are made natural branches , sith they never descend from abraham the root by natural generation , and though it bee true they enjoy saving graces which the believing jews had , called v. . the fatness of the olive tree , yet it is not true that the gentile believers children enjoy the outward priviledges the jews had by birth , or are any of them ingraffed and partakers of the olive tree but the elect and believers , or that they are to be accounted holy by us , till god hath purified their hearts by faith , acts. . . and as we cannot say certainly any infant of a believer is inherently holy , so neither can we say they are any of them holy as separated to god and to bee received into church relation , till they profess the faith , such promise and purpose of election as mr. c. imagins being no where to be found , and if it were it is not sufficient to make them relatively holy in church relation , without profession of faith by each person so accounted , there being no rule whereby we are to baptize any but disciples , upon their own profession so judged , no not though god had made such a covenant to each believer as mr. c. imagins : but we are to baptize persons who profess the faith , though wee know not them to be inherently holy , or in the covenant of grace . mr. cs. other reason pag. . why such children are by the apostle called holy , because they are not onely within the covenant of abraham , but also are appointed of god to be a subject recipient of the seal of that covenant ▪ is another unproved dictate and refuted by the same reasons by which the former is refelled . what mr. c. urgeth against my sense of holy that is legitimate , cor. . . that it had been but affirming the thing , is shewed to be false in the first part of this review sect . . and it is false which he imagins that the apostle thus reasoned , that after my exposition except one of the married couple be believer their children are bastards , or that he ●scribed the sanctification to the faith of the believer , which and what else hee saith about the scruple from ezra . . and . . is so fully answered in the first part of this review sect . , &c. to the end of the book , that mee thinks mr. c. should afore hee had printed his sermons have viewed them , and not thus have printed these stale objections often answered , without shewing the insufficiency of the answers , if hee meant candidly , as one that endeavoured to cl●er the truth . but mr. c. takes notice of this objection against the basis of his building , that upon this account not onely children of believers , but also nations must be reputed holy , because the promise is that believers shall bee blessings also unto nations ; to this he answers , the case is not the same , for children are immediately under this word of blessing in the family relation , as the people of god in the church are immediately under that blessing , which the lord commandeth out of sion . but as for nations , they are under it in a remote capacity by means of what the saints are in their families and in the church . therefore although such as are of the church , and the children also of such families are holy , yet it followeth not that therefore the nation should be holy . ref. i reply , the objection in form stands thus ; they which come under the word of blessing from god , in as much as that word was confirmed not onely unto abraham , but also to all believers , gen. . , . & . , . must be reputed holy . this is the effect of mr. cs. words p. ● . and the main ground of all his discourse for infant baptism , i subsume . but nations , yea all nations come under the word of b●essing from god , in as much as that word was not onely confirmed unto abraham , but also to all believers , gen. . , . & . , . and if the word families bee taken ( as mr. c. seems to take it ) for housholds , and all housholds , then the same objection is concerning , all in housholds , servants , wives as well as children , they come under the ble●●ing according to mr. cs. exposition ; ergo , according to mr. cs. arguing and exposition , nations , yea all nations , families , housholds , all in them are holy and to be baptized , which being absurd his opinion is also absurd . the minor is in the texts , and gal. . . as mr. c. expounds them , ergo , the conclusion followes from his own principles . his answer is neither true nor pertinent . not true , for children are not immediately under this word of blessing in the family relation , nor the people of god in the church ( meaning the visible ) are immediately under that blessing , but onely believers in the families or church , as the apostle determines , gal. . , . nor according to mr ▪ cs. exposition are the children more immediately under the word of blessing as confirmed to abraham , then the wife , servants , sojourners , neighbours . for the children are not under the blessing but as the children of believers , and so according to his own exposition pag. . gods choise shall be by families and nations , so that he will ordinarily cast the lot of the saints in neighbourhoods and places together , and if so the blessing or choise is as immediately promised to nations , neighbourhoods , others in the same house as to children , nor are the nations in a more remote capacitie then the saints in the families and in the church . nor is the answer pertinent if it were true : for the major proposition , which is his own , is not limited to them that come under the word of blessing immediately in his sense , for then hee should exclude nations , neighbourhood● , families , contrary to the text , which mentions the blessing of all kinreds and nations , and not onely the children , and to his own exposition which extends it to neighbourhoods and places together . mr. c. not trusting to this , saith ; to this i add , that children are in the power of parents and at their disposing ; and so as when they , in their sanctification , or being made holy , give up themselves to god by faith , and obedience to his ordinances , their children are therein vertually given up also , in as much as a believer in some respect giveth up to god together with himself all in his power . now this cannot be said of any nation whatsoever . answ. but . the parents giving up all to god is not that which makes children to be holy neither according to truth , for they are made holy by gods act whither of covenant or other act of consecration or separation to himself , not by mans act of giving up by vow or otherwise to god , yea if the act of mans giving up all in his power to god , makes children holy , it makes servants , cattle holy to god , nor according to mr. c. himself , who ascribes it to gods election , and word of blessing . if this be the way of making holy , by giving up all at his disposing to god , then a believer at his first conversion makes holy to god himself , for he giveth himself to god , makes holy to god persons not yet bego●ten , and so visible churchmembers according to mr. b. subjects recipient of the seal of the covenant , according to mr. c. pag. . yea by this reason a believers horse may bee said to bee holy to to god , and baptizable . . this addition takes away his former answer . for if the giving up all to god in his power at his disposing by the believer make them holy , children are no more immediately holy then servants , wife , &c. all being together given up to god in one act whether vertually or formally . . if a believers giving up to god together with himself all in his power , and at his disposing make them holy , then a believing ●●ing and state do make the whole nation holy who are their subjects and so the objection stands good , that the whole nation is according to mr. cs. conceit to be reputed holy but mr. c. saith , it will be objected yet further , that the jews are said to be holy , even the whole people of the jews , who now are unbelievers , rom. . . yet have they no right to baptism ; and therefore that this holiness of the children , cor. . . be it from their interest in the covenant of god with abraham , is no argument for infant baptism , because the unbelieving jews also are supposed by us to be holy upon the same account , and holiness to be taken in the same sence in both places . answ. this objection is mine in my exercit. sect . . but otherwise then mr. c. here sets it down . for it is not there brought as an objection by it self , but as a reason of my denial of this proposition universally understood , they who are holy with covenant holiness may be baptized . . i did not say the whole people of the jews , who now are unbelievers , but the elect of the israelites no● yet called are holy in respect of the covenant , and are not yet therefore to be baptised . yet neither to the objection as mine , nor as framed by himself , doth mr. c. give a sufficien● answer . for he grants the two places cor. . . rom. . . are parallel , and in that sense they have been both above alledged to prove that branch of gods covenant with abraham concerning a blessing upon posterity , in order to the multiplying of believers . and yet it is as true , that there is a great difference between them . now this grant is enough to prove that persons or people may be federally holy , and yet not baptizable , which is the objection . nor doth the difference which he imagines ( if there be such a difference ) in the two places , any thing at all infringe it . for whether federal holiness in one place bee ascribed to a whole people in respect of a part or to particular persons , the connexion between federal holiness and baptizability , is shewed to be null ; and the major denied not true universally understood , and so the objection is confirmed by this grant , not infringed . yea whereas mr. c. pretends the difference to bee great between the places , the very thing bee assignes makes no difference . he saith , the apostle saith expresly cor. . . of such particular persons that they are holy , but of rom. . . the scope of the apostle is to set forth the kind or sort of people , namely jewes , not the particular persons that should bee called . but herein hee opposeth himself in the words next before , where hee thus makes the apostle to intend both ; thus wee are to understand that of the apostle rom. . when hee saith , of the people of the jewes that they are holy , namely , what properly and peculiarly belongeth to a part , even to those of them who either then were , or afterwards should bee converted , bee ascribeth to the whole , and in respect of that part hee calleth the whole body of that people holy . now if hee call a part holy which should bee called , he sets forth the particular persons . and cor. . . sets out the kinde or sort of children as well as the particular persons , whether after mr. cs. opinion , the children of believers , or after mine , the children of married persons . and that which he argues makes against him for me . for if that which is ascribed to the whole people belongeth by a synecdoche to a part , even those who are or shall be converted , then what is said either gen . , . or . , . or rom. . , , . of families , nations , branches , lump , may be understood synecdochically of a part of families , nations or people , and those believers as paul gal. . , . determines as converts as mr. c. and so not children of believers , much less infants necessarily included in the families , nations , branches ingraffed , lump that is holy , and consequently all mr. cs. arguing , made void by his own concession , which hitherto he hath framed from abrahams covenant to prove infant baptism . and what he argues , that the lump which is termed holy rom. . . and the whole people termed beloved v. . is to bee understood of the better part , and of those that were then unborn , and of such a lump as should have a being successively , and part after part , and so cannot bee actually holy then when the apostle spake , it doth all exactly agree with my explication of the ingraffing of the branches in my apol. sect . . in the first part of this review sect . , , &c. and doth well serve to answer the arguments for the ingraffing parent and child into the visible church christian against the sense i give for the ingraffing into the invisible church , by giving of faith according to election . nor did i ever say , the apostles meaning rom. . . was that th●se particular persons of the jews who pers●st ●n unbelief , or that the whole people of the jews are now in the times of the new testament holy in any sense whatever , but grant they are broken off from the holy root , vers . . are cast●away , vers . . are enemies , and so unclean and prophane , and therefore not holy , v. . yet this meant , but of some , v. . a part , v. . and all these things do well accord together , and with the perseverance of saints asserted against arminians , sith the people of the jews are not by me asserted to be broken off from the invisible church of elect and true believers in respect of what particular persons broken off were in their own persons , but in respect of what the particular persons were in a former age of the same nation or people . mr. c. p . imagines that christ saith , of little children is the kingdome of god , because of his sained additional promise : but he brings not a word to prove it , nor doth the text yeeld any proof that they were believers children ; and i have proved the kingdome of god is meant of that of glory . review , par . . sect . . and for his conceit , that christ bid suffer them to come to him because of the additional promise of mr. c. it is without proof , and not agreeable to mr. cs. own concei● . for if christ would intimate , that this is part of the gospel of the kingdome , that believers should be blessings to their children , namely , so as they should be means of their conversion , he should rather have directed the apostles to suffer them to be brought to their parents to be educ●ted , then to himself to lay hands on them . and christs anger against his disciples argues no such intimation , nor his saying that of them is the kingdome of god , proves their right to baptism as doth the receiving the holy ghost , act. . . for that shewed cornelius actually a believer , so did not christs speech of the little children , which expressed not their present but future estate , as is proved , review , par . . sect . . nor is there a word brought by mr. c. to prove that christs command was given to his disciples for a perpetual obligation to the disciples of christ , in all ages then to come , to bring infants to christ in an external way , and therefore by baptism . for though it were recorded after his ascension , yet it follows not it was recorded to learn this , to have a way of bringing infants to christ by baptism , there being something else to be learned by it , and it is rather a sure proof that christ did not teach that by his command , sith neither then nor after do we find the apostles did baptize an infant ; and the phrase of comming to him cannot import baptism , sith he did not baptize , joh. . , . and if any standing rule were intended by christs command , it should be rather laying on hands and praying for infants , then baptizing them . though it be granted , that to whom christ is a king he is also a prophet , yet it follows not , that infants being such as of whom is christs kingdome , they are his disciples as meant mat. . . much less that they are made disciples , when their parents are converted , because they are then in the way of the spirits teaching , christ being a prophet to other then disciples meant mat. . . nor is there the least hint . act. . . of infants being disciples , and the notion of disciples by the parents conversion , or by being in the way of the spirits teaching ( which yet is not shewed , but fancied by mr. c. ) are meer devised whimzies refuted by me , review , par . . sect . , , , , , . nor is any sufficient answer given hereby , or by mr. c. elsewhere , or any other , or ever will be to the argument as brought by me against infant baptism , review , par . . sect . . and elsewhere . what mr. c. saith , that more might be said about those words in answer to it , namely , that in the words baptizing them , mat. . . we have by a synecdoche , a part for the whole ( an usual form of speech in the scripture ) for we know the apostles commission did extend as well to a setting up of other ordinances as of baptism . therefore when he saith , go teach all nations baptizing them , it is as if he had said , go teach them , and enter them into the practise of the worship of the gospel ; of which among other things the application of the token of abrahams covenant to infants may be a part , any thing in that place contained notwithstanding . answ. . such a synecdoche in any institution of a rite is no where to be found as this which mr. c. dreams of , baptizing them into the name of the father , son , and holy spirit , that is , enter them into the practise of the worship of the gospel , not onely baptism , but also breaking of bread , &c. . we know the apostles commission did extend as well to the setting up of other ordinances , viz. breaking of bread , cor. . . as of baptism , but not in the word baptizing , mat. . but in the word teaching them to observe all that i have commanded you , v. . . there is this very thing which mr. c. himself saith against baptizing infants , it is as if he had said , go teach them , and enter them into the practise of the worship of the gospel : for sure christ did not bid them teach infants , nor do i think mr. c. would have them entred into the practise of the gospel worship , but onely baptized . and so mr. cs. answer is a strengthening of the argument . enough in answer to mr. c. being unwilling to make more exceptions on passages which need correction : why i have said so much , the reason is given , sect . . sect . lxxxiii . interest in the covenant gave not title to circumcision , as mr. m. in his th . conclusion would have it . in the defence of his th . and th . concl . against my examen mr. m. saith , he will contract ; and accordingly i shall be brief in my reply . he grants the order of circumcising infants is repealed , as i answered in examining his th . concl . but would have it added , that by gods order baptism succeeds in the room of it , which i have refuted . then upon my saying that circumcision was not a seal of the spiritual part of the covenant , he censures this as pure anabaptism , leaving out injuriously my limitation , to all that were circumcised , which if fairly added had cleared me ; and perhaps if the so called anabaptists had been rightly understood , they had been found as innocent as my self in this thing ; i see enough in paedobaptists dealing with me , to shew how great likelihood there is that the words of the anabaptists in germany were perverted . mr. m. p. , . excepts against me for saying that ishmael and esau had no part in the covenant , denies that ishmael had no part in it , when he himself grants that they did never partake of the spiritual graces of the covenant , which is all one with that which i say , that the covenant of grace was not made to them , they had no part in it ; for sure they to whom the covenant of grace is made , and have part in it , are all partakers of the spiritual graces of the covenant , or else god keeps not his promise ; and for this i bring gen. . , , . rom. . , , . gal. . , . ( though i needed not , having mr. ms. own confession ) and therefore it is most false he saith , i bring not one shadow of a proof for what i say . but mr. m. thinks to maintain his speech , that ishmael had part in the covenant , in that he was reckoned by circumcision to belong to the covenant , and obliged to seek after the spiritual part of it ▪ to have his heart circumcised , and to believe in the messiah that was to come of abrahams seed . answ. . it is contrary to gen. . , , . to say that ishmael by circumcision did belong to the covenant , it runs upon this palpable mistake , that every one that was circumcised had thereby the covenant sealed to him . . those that were uncircumcised , all the people of the world were obliged to seek after the spiritual graces of the covenant , to be holy , to believe ; yet this doth not prove they had a part in the covenant , and therefore this answer of mr. m. is frivolous . and so likewise is that which he saith in answer to my words ( not rightly set down , my words were not , right to evangelical promises or any other benefit ) that no benefit of the covenant was the proper reason ( i added , and adequate ) why these or those were circumcised , but onely gods precept ; though gods command was the cause of the existence of the duty of circumcision , yet the covenant of grace was the motive to it , and these two are well consistent together . in which . he shews not whose motive it was , gods or mans . if he mean it was gods to command it , it is nothing to the purpose to shew right to the covenant of grace to have been the proper adequate reason of the persons to be circumcised : if mans motive , it is false , whether we understand it of ●he circumcised , who were infants , and therefore had no motive to it , but were passive onely , or the circumciser ; for in ●brahams circumcising ishmael mr. m. saith i have given a very good instance to prove , that some may receive the outward sign of the covenant , and a v●sible ●●anding in the church , though he who administers the seal might by revelation know the inward grace is wanting ▪ were his answer gran●ed , yet it proves not the contrary to my speech , but confirms it , though this point be one of the hinges on which his first & main argument turns ▪ for i● it be true that the adequate reason o● pe●sons circumcising was not right to the evangelical promises or other benefit in the covenant , but gods prec●pt onely , then the pillar of mr. ms argument f●lls to the ground , all that are in the covenant are to be sealed , it being onely true thus , all in the covenant , whom god ha●h commanded 〈◊〉 sealed are to be sealed . what he saith after , that i grant what is in controversie , because i grant men may have a visible membership in the church though they be not elected or sanctified , it is alike frivolous , it being never in controversie ; but whether any may be said to be in or under the covenant of grace , or to have the covenant of grace made to them who are non elect , and never sanctified . that which mr. m. p. . calls a piece of odd divinity , that circumcision should seal righteousness to them who never are circumcised , nor reputed so , nor capable of being circumcised , nor might lawfully be circumcised , being understood as i express it of abrahams personal circumcision is the apostles express divinity , rom. . , . whose scope , say new england elders in answer to the d. and th . position , p. . rightly , in that place is not to define a sacrament , nor to shew what is the proper adequate subject of the sacrament ; but to prove by the example of abraham , that a sinner is justified before god not by works , but by faith , &c. nor is this any more odd divinity then mr. ms. who asserts women virtually circumcised in the males . that which he saith , that visible professours have a visible right to the spiritual part of circumcision , i conceive false : for though they had a right to circumcision or baptism , which they might receive of men , yet they had no right at all to forgiveness of sins , justification , adoption , salvation ▪ which are onely from god , and onely true believers had right to . that which he saith , p. . that circumcision was given the jews in reference to their church state , not in reference to their civil state , is not true , but said upon a mistake , as if the church state and civil were different in the jewish commonwealth . that which he confesseth , that the formal reason of their being circumcised was the command of god , is enough to shew that interest in the covenant did not give right to circumcision , but the command of god ; and therefore without shewing a command for infant baptism , this is no good argument , they are in the covenant therefore to be baptized , which enervates all mr. ms. dispute . but he adds ▪ the covenant of grace , or their church state was the motive to it , and the thing it related to ; and this fully answers the objection ; for it was commanded and observed as that which was a priviledge and duty belonging to the covenant , and they used it as being in covenant , the objection is wholly taken off . to which i reply , . the covenant of grace might be in some sense , and the church state of abrahams house in some respect , that is , to bee a sign of it , might be the end why god appointed circumcision to abrahams house ; but motive , that is , impulsive cause , i see not how the covenant of grace and the church state can be termed , there being nothing but his own will , according to the counsel of which he worketh all things , ephes. . . that can be rightly termed a motive to him to command it . . but be it in the sense i allow it termed motive , or end , and a duty belonging to the covenant as a sign of it , and the persons who used it , as abraham , isaac , and jacob used it as being in covenant ; yet neither is it true that all that used it were in the covenant of grace , nor was it appointed as a duty to be used by them to all and they onely that were in the covenant of grace ▪ nor did god by the use of it , seal , signifie , assure or confer an estate in the covenant of grace to every person whom hee appointed to bee circumcised , and therefore no part of the objection is taken off , that circumcision was not the seal of the covenant of grace to all circumcised persons , but was appointed to persons not under the covenant of grace , and denied to persons that were , and consequently mr. ms. proposition not true ; all that were in the covenant were to bee sealed . when mr. m. said , persons were bound to conform to the manner of administration , and this manner of administration he made to bee temporal blessings and punishmenst . i took it he meant they should conform to them . he tels me p. . that though i confidently asserted heretofore , that ishmael , and esau and others , were circumcised for some temporal respects , that circumcision sealed the temporal or political promises , but yet in saying they received circumcision neither in relation to outward things onely , nor at all either as temporal blessings or types , but because god commanded , i do as good as deny it ; sith if they were circumcised with respect to no●hing but the command , it sealed nothing , it was no seal at all . to which i reply , i find not that i asserted any where that ishmael and esau were circumcised for some temporal respects , and though i alledged cameron , saying , that it sealed earthly promises , yet i never said it sealed them to ishmael and esau : nor do i count it any absurdity , to say it sealed nothing to them , or it was no seal at all to them . and i conceive that baptism which is no seal of such earthly promises , nor can be a seal of spiritual and saving grace to every natural child of a believer ( of which he will not assert p. . of his defence there is a promise made to them ) when it is administred to reprobates is no seal of the covenant of grace to them , nor any seal at all , and that he must as well as i do ( if he will speak congruously to his own doctrine ) say that such persons are to bee baptized by reason of gods command and no other . yet i do not say the command of circumcision was not in reference to the covenant of grace , as mr. m. intimates : but this i say , though god commanded circumcision , that he might signifie christ to come , and evangelical grace by him , yet neither the circumciser nor the circumcised did circumcise , or were to be circumcised because of the persons interest in the covenant of grace , as the proper and adequate reason of the du●y of circumcision , but because of gods command , and yet i nothing doubt but that in the use of it , they and others that were neither circumcisers nor circumcised , as e gr . women were by faith to look on the covenant of grace through these administrations , that is to expect christ to come and blessing by him , which speeches are very easily consistent with my own words and scripture doctrine , though mr. m. did not understand it . when mr. m. alledged that circumcision could be no seal of canaan to proselites , and i answered that yet the covenant to abraham had promises of temporal blessings , and that some were to be circumcised who had no part in the covenant of grace , he tels me , . that he was proving that circumcision was no seal of the land of canaan , which i grant , if he mean it to some that were circumcised , yet if he mean it , to none , it is false . . he grants temporal blessings belong to the covenant of grace , according to that tim. . . but neither this nor any other text proves , that the promises of a setled abode in a fruitful land with peace , prosperity , and outward greatness , and dominion therein , is promised to a christian believer now , as it was to abraham and israel after the flesh , gen. . , , , , . but the promise of this life is upon the loss of outward things of a recompense in this life by receiving more , yet with persecution , mark. . . which can bee understood of no other then spiritual comforts , which may bee termed temporal blessings distinct from the everlasting life which in the world to come they shall have . . it was not his drift to prove that all that were circumcised had part in the spiritual graces of the covenant , but that they had a visible membership and right to bee reputed as belonging to the church . but this is not that whi●h hee was to prove that they were in the covenant of grace . lastly , when i excepted agai●st his speech [ that ishmael was really taken into the covenant of grace , and esau , till by their aposta●e they discovenanted themselves . ] . that hee opposed the apostle rom. . , . gal . , . gen. . , . heb. . . to this he repl●es not . . that by this speech he asserts falling from grace , this he denies because hee meant by their taking into the covenant of grace not being under the spiritual grace of the covenant , but the outward administration . but . this is but non-sense and delusory . for the outward administration is not the covenant of grace , circumcision is not the covenant of grace , nor visible profession , nor indeed could he mean it without trifling and mocking his reader when he argued , infants of believers are in the covenant of grace , therefore are to bee sealed with baptism or circumcision . for infants of believers make no visible , profession and if his argument were , they were under the outward administration , that it , to be circumcised or baptized ; and therefore they were to be sealed , that is to be circumcised or baptized , is mere trifling and delusory of the reader , who expects from his words , a proof that gods promise of righteousness and eternal life by christ ( which is and nothing else the covenant of grace ) is made to every infant child of a believer . . if this were mr. ms. meaning , ishmael and esau did not discovenant themselves , for they did uncircumcise themselves , but shewed that they regarded not the blessing of isaac . but saith mr. m. i have no doubt but that all indifferent readers well enough understand what i meant , by being taken into the covenant of grace , even such a taking in as when the gentiles were taken in , instead of the jews who were broken off , they were under the outward administration , visible professours , had an external calling , which is gods act though a common one . to which i reply , . if they were taken into the covenant of grace as the ingraffed gentiles , they were elect and true believers , if esau and ishmael fell from that state of the covenant of grace arminian apostasie is asserted . . neither the outward administration of circumcision to ishmael and esau , nor their visible profession ( whatever it were ) was gods act ( which mr. m. denies not taking into the covenant of grace to be ) therefore by neither of these can they with good sense be said to be taken really into the covenant of grace . . what external call which should be gods act distinct from the outward administration and visible profession mentioned , from which ishmael and esau fell , i understand not . . what ever external calling it be which he means and terms gods act , though a common one , sure i am mr. m. hath not shewed nor can shew that it is a real taking into the covenant of grace , which i said truly , nor hath mr. m. disproved or gain-said it , is gods act , either of election or promise , or some act executing either of these , and the objection still stands good , persons were to bee circumcised who were in the covenant of grace , ishmael was appointed to be circumcised , though it were declared gods covenant did not belong to him , and therefore the reason of circumcising persons was not the covenant of grace , but onely the will and command of god to have it so . sect . lxxxiv . the enlargement of our priviledges , proves not infant baptism as mr. m. in his th . conclusion , would have it . mr. ms. th . conclusion was , the priviledges of believers under this last and best administration of the covenant of grace are many wayes inlarged , made more honourable and comfortable then ever they were in the time of the jews administration . for examining of which i set down something about priviledges , which mr. m. grants , and saith , what 's all this to the purpose ? i reply , i told him it was to uncover the ambiguity of his speeches , in which all the strength of his conclusion lay . to what i said , that if he meant his conclusion of priviledges of the substance of the covenant of grace , it is to be denied : mr. m. confessed they were the sameboth to jews and gentiles ; but in respect of the administration i granted it , hee answers , . if this were granted it hurts not him , it 's sufficient if the administration be now more comfortable to believers and their children . to which i reply , that this grant enervates the argument to which this conclusion tends . for if the priviledges of the covenant of grace belonging to the substance of it be not enlarged , but the same in substance to jews and gentiles , then no priviledges of the covenant of grace are enlarged ; for all the priviledges of the covenant of grace belong to the substance of it , and to true believers or elect onely , the visible membership and initial seal contended for , were no priviledges of the covenant of grace , nor such as all believers could claim for their children , they were personal priviledges to the church of the jews , and belonging to that administration ( as mr. ms. phrase is ) or as i would speak to that peculiar national church state which god vouchsafed that people , out of special ends and respect to that people , of whom as concerning the flesh christ came , and consequently by denying those priviledges we deny no priviledges of the covenant of grace to believers for their children , nor ascribe less grace to them then the jews had . and if the administration be now more comfortable to believers and their children , it being in that circumcision and the yoke of the law are taken away , it follows , it is more comfortable to us , that no such thing as circumcision was is put on our children . mr. m. and paedobaptists do grosly mistake , as if circumcision did belong to jewes and their children because of their interest in the covenant of grace , which neither is nor ever will be proved . ly . saith mr. m. if there be no more honourableness in those priviledges , which belong to the substance of the covenant , how comes it to pass , that in your answers to those several texts which i and others bring to prove the enlargement of priviledges under this last administration , you interpret them of those priviledges which belong to the substance of the covenant , or the spiritual part of it ? answ. in those answers i do not so interpret those texts of those priviledges which belong to the substance of the covenant , or the spiritual part of it as more honourable then the priviledges belonging to the substance of the covenant of grace , or spiritual part of it now then to believers afore christ , but say that the promises of the new covenant , which is the covenant of grace , are better then the promises of the covenant at mount sinai , which was the covenant of works . thirdly , saith mr m. seeing that under this last administration these priviledges are communicated not onely with more clearness , but in greater abundance , i wonder you should say they are no more honourable and comfortable now then they were then , is not abundance of grace more honourable and comfortable then a little grace ? answ. it is , but yet not priviledges belonging to the substance of the covenant of grace . for this clearness and abundance comes not from the substance of the covenant of grace , but to use his phrase , from the administration , in respect of which i granted they are many wayes enlarged and made more honourable . but then saith mr. m. this will serve our turn well enough ; for this was a priviledge belonging to their administration , that their infants were under it as well as themselves ; yeild that for ours and the controversie is ended . answ. the yeilding that the priviledges of believers under the n. t. are enlarged , more honourable , and more comfortable , in respect of the administration , will not serve mr. ms. turn , except it be yeilded of this particular , that the infants of christian believers are visible christian churchmembers , and to be entred by baptism , as well as the hebrew infants of and into the church of israel by circumcision , which would indeed end the controversie if yeilded , but was not so by me , who granted priviledges of believers now more enlarged in respect of the administration , because the preaching of the gospel , which is that whereby the covenant of grace is administred , is enlarged to gentiles as well as jewes , and more honourable , because preached by christ himself , and more comfortable because in plain words without shadows . mr. m. adds . to have nothing in lieu of the administrations then as they were shadowes of the substance , which is christ , is very right : but to say , it is our priviledge to have nothing in lieu of them as they were external ordinances to apply christ , is to say , it is our priviledge to have no ordinances to apply christ to us , and thereby to make us compleat in him , which were a most absurd thing to affirm . answ. those external ordinances applied christ to them no otherwise then as shadows of the substance , which is christ , nor doth mr. m. in his sermon , p. , . express their administrations of the covenant of grace otherwise then as figures , signs , types , and sacraments of spiritual things : so that if we have nothing in lieu of them as they were shadows , but christ , we have nothing in lieu of them as external ordinances to apply christ to us ; nor did they make us compleat in christ , nor is it absurd to affirm that no external ordinances now do . but saith mr. m. circumcision was indeed a part of that administration , and obliged them to the rest of that manner of administration , as baptism doth now to ours ; but did it not also belong to the substance ? answ. no. was it not a seal of the righteousness of faith , of circumcision of heart , &c. answ. abrahams was , not every ones circumcision . doth not the seal belong to the thing sealed ? the conveyance and seal annexed to it are no part of the purchased inheritance , but do they not belong to it ? answ. they do , but not as of the substance of the thing sealed , or the inheritance purchased , or the covenant whereby it is promised : but as the sign whereby the futurity of it is confirmed . now surely he should use non sense , who should ●erm the sign or seal the substance of the covenant or thing promised , being neither essential nor integral parts of them , but onely adjuncts , without which they may be or not be entirely . to my saying , that 't is so far from being a priviledge to our children to have them baptized , to have baptism succeed in the stead of circumcision , that it is a benefit to want it , god not appointing it ; i answer ( saith mr. m. ) then belike our priviledges of the covenant of grace are so far from being enlarged by enjoying the sacrament of baptism , that it had been a priviledge to have wanted baptism if god had not appointed it ; and by as good a reason at least you might have said , that circumcision was so far from being a privilegde to the jews and their children , that it had been a benefit for them to have wanted it , if god had not commanded it : sure that is a strange kind of priviledge , of which i may truly say , that it had been a greater be - to them who have it , to have wanted it , if the donor had not commanded it . answ. mr. m. by clipping my words hath misrepresented my speech ; he hath left out , that circumcision was a priviledge belonging not to the substance of the covenant , but to the administration which then was ; a priviledge to the jews in comparison of the heathens , but a burthen in comparison of us , which was in that it signified christ to come , the obligation of the law , for which reasons i judged it a great priviledge to us and our children , that they have neither it , nor any other thing in the place and u●e of it , but christ manifested in the flesh , because if we had any thing in the use of it , christ must be expected to come in the flesh , and jesus denied to be the christ , and we debtors to keep the whole law . and then i determined absolutely , that the want of infant baptism is no loss to us and our children ; not a loss in respect of duty , god having not appointed it ; nor of priviledge , god making no promise of grace to be confirmed by it to the infants of believers ; which last words being left out by mr. m. the reason of my words is omitted , and my speech misrepresented ; but thus set down mr. ms. exceptions appear but cavils . for he supposeth our priviledges of the covenant of grace are enlarged by enjoying the sacrament of baptism ; but i know not any priviledges of the covenant of grace , but effectual calling , justification , adoption , sanctification , glorification ; and if there be any other termed saving graces , or which accompany salvation , and to say these are enlarged by enjoying the sacrament of baptism , especially when administred to infants , is as much as to say it confers grace ex opere operato . and i grant for us to have wanted baptism had been a priviledge , god not appointing it , nor promising any thing upon the use of it , nor declaring his acceptance of it , which is the case of infant baptism . sure i know none but would think it a burthen to be baptized , or be covered with water , though but for a moment , were it not god commanded it , and accepted of it as a service to him . and the like is true of circumcision , the want of which , being so painfull , was a benefit , but for the command and promise of god signified by it . such actions as are no way priviledges , but sins , without gods precept and promise , it is better to want them then have them , or act them ; such is infant baptism ; and if it be in the place and use of circumcision , it is a heavy burthen , no benefit now , but a yoke of bondage . i said mr. m. was to prove either that circumcision did belong to the substance of the covenant of grace , and he answers , that circumcision , though a part of their administration , did yet belong to the substance ; not as a part of it , but as a means of applying it : which speech how frivolous it is , is shewed before , sect . . p. , . and in this section . or that the want of circumcision , or some ordinance in the place and use of it , is a loss of priviledge of the covenant of grace to us and our children . to this he saith , and i have also proved , that though it be a priviledge to have nothing succeed circumcision , as it bound to that manner of administration , yet it is a priviledge to have somewhat succeed it as a seal of the covenant , in as much as a covenant with a seal is a greater benefit then a covenant without a seal . answ. . if it be a priviledge to have nothing succeed circumcision as it bound to that manner of administration , then it is a priviledge to have nothing succeed it in its use , which confirms my before speech carped at by m. m. . how vain the talk of paedobaptists is about sacraments being seals of the covenant of grace , is shewed before sect . . . a covenant with a seal is a greater benefit then a covenant without a seal when there is more assurance and better estate thereby procured , but if as good assurance and estate be by a covenant without a seal , it is no greater benefit to have a seal , then to have a covenant without it . . there is a seal of the covenant of grace , which succeeds circumcision as the substance the shadow , and that is christs cirumcision , col. . . and his bloudshedding , mat. . . heb. . . &c. besides the seal of gods spirit . but saith mr. m. the thing i was to prove was that our priviledges are enlarged , not extenuated ; which appears , partly , in that we have freedome in what was burdensome to them in their manner of administration : which he meant of circumcision by his alledging act. . . and thereby it is manifest that it is false which he said before , that circumcision did belong to the substance of the covenant as a means of applying it . for that speech doth imply , that the covenant of grace could not be applied without circumcision , for that which is of the substance of a thing , what way it is of the substance of it , is necessary to the being of that of which it is of the substance , otherwise it were a common accident , not of the substance of it : but without circumcision the covenant of grace might be applied , yea , according to mr. m. it is and may be better applied , for otherwise our priviledges were not enlarged in being freed from it . partly , saith mr. m. because our covenant is established upon better promises , heb. . . to this i answered , the covenant which had not so good promises was the covenant at mount sinai , v. . which was not the covenant of grace ( for then it should have the best promises , there being no better promises then are in the covenant of grace , nor could it be broken as that was , nor occasion finding f●ult as that did ; ) but it must needs be the covenant of works as the scripture doth plainly deliver , rom. . . gal. . , , & . . heb. . . &c. and for this i alledged some of mr. ms. own words in his sermon , p. . that the law was added not as a part of abrahams covenant , that in that giving the law there was something of the covenant of works made with adam in paradise . to this mr. m. returns an answer , bemoaning me as running into a needless and erroneous digression ; that he said indeed in his sermon , that the moral law was added years after the covenant was made with abraham , not as a part of that covenant , but as a schoolmaster to whip them to christ ; that they finding the impossibility of keeping the law , might more earnestly long after christ , exhibited in those shadows of rites and sacrifices , &c. but to say that this covenant mentioned heb. . was the covenant of works , is a most erroneous doctrine ; look into the text , and you shall find that the covenant which is there mentioned ( which god finds fault with , and calls the first covenant , in opposition to this better covenant ) had ordinances of divine worship , had a sanctuary a tabernacle , priests and high priests , sacrifices , and other rites belonging to the administration of it . sir , was this the covenant of works ? i hope you will not own it in your next . answ. it is , and i do still own it in the d . section of this part of my review , and do requite mr. ms. pitty of me with the like bemoaning his ignorance , and , if i mistake not , the assemblies errour about this in their confession of faith , ch . . art . . i have looked into the texts , and i find mr. m. mistaken in the meaning of gal. . . perhaps following the unnecessary supplement in our last english translation , where is added [ to bring us ] which the text hath not , but onely the law was our boy-leader unto christ , that is until christ , as v. , . shew , and the meaning is plain , that the apostle compares the law to a teacher , or guide , or overseeer of a child in his minority to which the israelites were confined , not in respect of its severity as mr. m. makes it , to whip them to christ , but as a teacher directing them though imperfectly by figures and types untill christ , and faith in him were revealed . in like manner he mistakes when he saith , god finds fault with the first covenant , the words being for complaining of them , heb. . nor complaining or finding fault with it : and when it is translated v. . if the first covenant had been faultless , it is not intimated as if it were faulty , but they were faulty , as vers . . shews , and the covenant is termed non 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not from the fault of it , but of them , which occasioned complaints of them , and therefore it were better translated without complaint or plaintless , then faultless . as for what mr. m. alledgeth from heb. . . it no more proves that the covenant at mount sinai was the covenant of gospel grace , and not of works , then because the tree of life was a symbole , type , or shadow of christ , or our blessed estate in him , therefore the covenant made with adam in paradise before his fall , was not a covenant of works , but of gospel grace ; or noahs ark typified baptism , therefore the covenant with noah , gen. . was a covenant of evangelical grace . the covenant of grace and of works are denominated from the promise and condition , not from gods intent in some things commanded . when our lord christ , mar. . . told the young man of entring into life , he propounded the covenant of works , yet he had another end therein , to wit , to try and discover him . though the commands about the sacrifices , high priest , &c. were to typyfie christ , yet the law as it was propounded covenant wise is manifestly declared to be the covenant of works , rom. . . gal. . , . yea , mr. ms. own words prove it . for . where he cites the addition of the law , gal. . . the law is not restrained to the moral law , but contains all the commands of the sacrifices , &c. as well as the moral law , which were added because of transgressions , not onely to restrain them , but also for the expiating of some offences against the law , so as to obtain a partial temporary forgiveness by them , as is manifest from levit. . &c. now the whole law as delivered years after the covenant with abraham , is contradistinct to the covenant confirmed before in christ , or the promises ; therefore as it was a covenant , exod. . , it was a covenant of works . . if it were not a part of the covenant with abraham , it was not the covenant of grace , for such was abrahams covenant ; but according to mr. m. the law was no part of that covenant , ergo. . that which was a schoolmaster to whip , was not the covenant of grace , for the covenant of grace doth not terrifie or whip , but such is the law according to mr. m. ergo. . that which was impossible to bee kept , was not the covenant of grace , for that is never broken , but such was the law or covenant at mount sinai according to mr. m. ergo. . if in the giving the law there was something of the covenant of works made with adam in paradise , then it was a covenant of works , this he must grant , unless he will have a mixt covenant , partly of grace and partly of works , which he opposeth in his answer to me about abrahams covenant ; but in the giving that law according to mr. m there was something of the covenant of workes made with adam in paradise , ergo. . that which god finds fault with is not the covenant of grace , but acc●rding to mr. m. god finds fault with it , ergo. . that which is termed the first covenant in opposition to this covenant is not the covenant of grace ; but such according to mr. m. is that at mount sinai , ergo. . the covenant of grace is the better covenant , but such was not that at mount sinai , according to mr. m. ergo. and truely i finde so many protestant divines terming the covenant at mount sinai the covenant of works , perkins on gal. . . pemble of justification sect . . c. ● . cotton in his way of congregational churches cleered p. , . however in some respect hee will have it to have been a covenant of grace , yet to the carnal seed ●aith , it was a covenant of workes , and proves it out of paul ; and adds , and so have the chiefest german divines as well as piscator and polanus , t●ken the covenant on mount sinai to bee a covenant of works . see piscator ezek. . observat . ult . in v. . and . and polanus ibidem . and synt. th. l. c. . pisc. observ . e v. . heb. . dicson paraph. gal . , , , . hebr . , . becman . th exercit. . p. de saedere operum aut legis legimus , exod . . deut. . . reg. . . jer. . . heb . , , . to whom i add my antagonists mr. geree vindic . vindic . p. . mr. baill●e in his anabaptism , pag. . and might do many more if it were necessary . this is enough to shew my doctrine to have been unjustly termed most erroneous by mr. m. beeing pauls , mr. ms. and others named , and therefore rightly owned by me . to my words exam. p. ; . the next scripture you thus express , the glory of theirs had no glory in respect of ours , cor. . . but this passage is plainly meant of the covenant at mount sinai , which is called the letter , v. the ministration of death written and ingraven in stones so glorious , that the children of israel could not stedfastly behold the face of moses for the glory of his countenance , which glory was to be done away , v. . the ministration of condemnation , v . which i suppose you do not understand of the covenant of grace , and therefore it is impertinently alledged , mr. m answers thus sir , i wonder at your confidence in it : the reader will easily discern that the whole scope of that chapter clearly holds forth the preheminence of the ministery of the gospel above the ministery of moses his vailed ceremonies : belike then with you , moses ceremonies were the covenant of works . answ. i wonder that a man of such note should wonder at that of which the reason is given , and should take upon him to defend his own sermon , and yet pass by my reason against his allegation without rehearsal or answer to it . in form it stands thus . that which was the letter which killeth , written in tables of stone opposite to the new testament , and the spirit which giveth life , the ministration of death , of condemnation by moses , was the law or covenant of works , for it is onely the covenant of works , not that of grace how darkly soever delivered , of which these things can be said . but such was the law or covenant at mount sinai , ergo. 't is true , it was the apostles scope to hold forth the preheminence of the ministry of the gospel , but not barely above the ministry of moses vailed ceremonies , for the apostle prefers it before the ministry of the letter written and ingraven in stone , v. , . which was the moral law , but above the ministry of the whole law , which comprehending all the commands mosaical promulged covenant-wise , and not singly moses ceremonies , are by me termed the covenant of works , and of this i am still confident . mr. m. skips over his impertinent allegation of gal. . , &c. and grants pet. . . the spiritual part to belong onely to the invisible church , of which he denies not the whole v. to be meant , but onely tels me , the whole nation of the jews who had the honour to be termed holy , the children of god , deut. . . to have the adoption , rom. . . were not inwardly holy , or effectually called ; which i readily grant , nor need i prove that rom. . . deut. . . were not priviledges which the visible church of the jewes enjoyed , having not denied it , but do expresly grant of rom. . . that it speaks of peculiar priviledges of the jews , and prove thence the jewes had some priviledges above us , and that the want of some priviledges they had may bee recompensed by some priviledges wee have , and thence gathered that is a feeble reason , from the jewish priviledge of infant circumcision , to prove infant baptism ; yet nothing that mr. m brings , shews pet. . . to bee meant of any other then the elect , nor that believers priviledges of the covenant of grace are enlarged . what he saith , that the comfortable manner of administration , and baptism are enlarged beyond circumcision , to females , and all nations , is granted ; but this groves not priviledges of the covenant of grace to be enlarged to each believer now , although there are more believers now and for gal . . the words [ there is neither male nor female ] are not added to shew baptism to be administred to whom circumcision was not , for then [ neither bond nor free ] should be added for the same reason , which had not been right , for bondmen were circumcised formerly , as well as then baptized ; but to shew a general equality of all believers in christ , and therefore that passage is meant onely of true believers . having shewed the impertinency of mr. ms. allegations for his th . conclusion , i answered the argument drawn thence for infant baptism thus . . it is no good argument , god gave such a priviledge to the jewes , ergo we must have such a priviledge too , without gods institution , but arrogant presumption to claim it . . that god gave many peculiar priviledges to the jewes which we have not , as that abraham was the father of the faithfull , mary the mother of christ ; no family out of which christ came but abrahams , no nation that god hath promised after many hundred years rejection to re-ingraff besides the jewes . this mr. m. endeavoured to prevent in his sermon , by saying , these were personal priviledges belonging to some particular persons , not the whole church of the jewes , nor from the covenant , but that to have infants belong to his church , and to have the initial seal are , and if that we have it not for ours , the grace of god is straitned as to our posterity , which he counts absurd , hereto many things are replied by me . . that this was never a priviledge to believers , that their children should be in the covenant of grace , god never made such a promise to every true believer , that he would be god to every believer and his natural seed , nor commanded that wee should repute the infants of believers to bee in the covenant of grace . this hath been largely handled in my review of mr. ms. second conclusion . . that the pretended priviledge of a believers infant childrens visible churchmembership and title to the initial seal was not from the covenant of gospel grace , but from the peculiar dealing of god towards the nation of the hebrews , out of peculiar reasons concerning that churchstate which that people were to have untill christ came , which is largely discussed in answer to mr. baxters second main argument section , &c. of this part of the review . . that even then when it was a priviledge to the hebrew people , yet title to the initial seal was not common to all believers children , not to those under eight dayes old , nor to females , nor to proselites of the gate , as v. g. to cornelius and his children . . that a priviledge there is to the jewes , even to the nation , and that arising from gods covenant of gospel grace , that their posterity shall after some hundred years rejection bee re-ingraffed , and yet this not to any gentile believer , prince , preacher , or martyr concerning their posterity , and therefore it is no absurdity to say , that in some respect the priviledges of the covenant of grace , even of the substance of it , were more large to some of the hebrew believers , then to the gentiles in respect of posterity . . that the personal priviledges of abraham , mary , &c. were more truely pertinent to the covenant of grace , though not common to all jews , then infants visible chvrchmembership and title to the initial seal . . that priviledges are meer arbitrary things , and that no reason why they are given to some and not to others , is needfull to be assigned besides the donors will. . that there is no more reason to say god grace is less now , because infants are not visible churchmembers and baptized ; then it is to say it is less because christ is not descended from them , they are not fathers of the faithfull . that there were many priviledges which the jews had which we have not , as those rom. . . & . . to have a temple , high-priest on earth , &c. . that the want of these is abundantly recompensed by christs comming without any particular thing of the same kinde in the stead of them , and therefore the want of churchmembership and initial seal , may in like manner bee said to bee recompensed by his comming . . that the priviledge the children of levi had , that their posterity should inherit the priesthood , be maintained by the offerings of the people , be exempt from many burthens , is not now to ministers children , nor any thing instead of it , and yet there is as much reason from the covenant of levi why ministers children should have this priviledge , or somewhat instead of it as from the covenant of abraham , that our children should have baptism in stead of circumcision . . that young children were to eat the passeover , and yet children of three or four years old are not admitted to the lords supper ; and consequently after the rate of mr. ms. reasoning , the grace of god is straitned to us in respect of our posterity . . that the grace of god is not denied by not baptizing infants , for that would infer that it did give grace . . that by denying infants visible churchmembership and baptism , wee do not put them out of the covenant of grace , or church of god. . that baptism is a duty rather then a priviviledge . that the use of it is rather for us to seal to god by it , that is , to testifie the repentance and faith of the baptized , then for god to us , as assuring by it the promise of gospel grace . . that by baptizing an infant the parent is not assured that the child is in the covonant of grace . . that through the want of infants visible churchmembership , such as the jews children had , wee have no loss of priviledge , but rather benefit , it being a state of imperfection . . that the want of the initial seal which the jewes had is a benefit it having a burthen annexed to it . . that children have no less of the grace of god by their want of christian visible churmembership and baptism then the jewes infants had . . that parents have as much cause of comfort concerning their children without these as they have by them . mr m. p. . speaks thus ; i think indeed it would take with no sober christian thus to argue : the jewes had it , therefore we must have it . but sir to argue thus , god gave such a priviledge to the whole church of the jewes , that their infants should be reputed to belong to his church , and have the initial seal . therefore if hee have not granted to christians that their infants shall also bee reputed to belong to his church , and partake of the initial seal ; then his grace to believers under the n. t. is straitned as to their posterity . this argument appears so clear to me , that i must confess my self one of those dull ones , who know not how to deny the consequence . answ. mr. m. hath ill recited my frame of the argument , which he rejects , by leaving out the chief words [ without an institution ] . yet his new frame mends not the matter , but indeed is in effect all one with that which he saith would take with no sober christian for [ the jewes ] and [ the whole church of the jewes ] are the same , and [ had it ] and [ must have it ] expressed but the same which mr. m. saith in more words : nor doth he put in any thing of gods will or institution to have it so , and therefore there is no more reason why his new frame should take with any sober christian , then the former . yet i shall view it as it is and . i deny the antecedent , god did not give the priviledge to the whole church of the jews , that their infants should have the initial seal , meaning it of all . . i deny the consequence , if by [ grace ] he mean gospel grace ; though infants of christians be not reputed to belong to the visible church , nor are baptized , yet the grace of the gospel , that is , remission of sin , sanctification , adoption , glorification ( which is that the scripture makes gospel grace ) is not straitned to christians as to their posterity . and the reasons of this denial are so plain to me , that i see no clearness in it , but should take my self dull if i should not discern its weakness . for the infant visible churchmembership being by reason of the peculiar national churchstate of the jews , and circumcision of infants by reason of that which was proper to the hebrew people , or policy , into which proselytes were admitted , not from the covenant of grace common to all believers in all ages , it is easie to perceive that notwithstanding the altering of these ( which god hath done , ) the grace of god is as much now to our children as to theirs . and here i think meet to answer mr. geree's argument as he frames it , vindic . paedobapt . pag. . i do grant the sequel of the major , if children of christian parents be excluded the covenant , then are the priviledges of the n. t. more restrained : but that we exclude them from the covenant of grace is false , we onely deny the fictitious covenant of paedobaptists , that god hath promised to be the god of believers and their seed : nor is it any harsh divinity , or derogatory from the incarnation of christ , to say , the jews converted , whose infants had the birth priviledge of membership in the jewish church by natural generation , have not the priviledge of membership in the christian , which is by spiritual regeneration . nor doth the term [ natural branches , rom. . , . ] ever agree to gentiles ingrafted , but that they are still branches of the wild olive by nature , nor any of them in the true olive without faith or election . nor doth mr. geree shew how he that denies baptism to infants denies the grace and mercy of god to us , if the grace of god be not tied to the sacraments . nor doth he shew that the priviledges of believers young children of . , or years old are not as much straitned if they who were admitted to the passeover are not admitted to the lords supper . for though the reception into the covenant and church were sufficiently done in baptism ; yet they should not have the priviledge of growth and nutrition , which the jews young children had by the passeover , if paedobaptists doctrine of the passeover , and lords supper be right . but i return to ●r m. mr. m. tels me , that though i say my instances of abrahams , the virgin mary's and jews priviledges not being now to us , do press his conclusion ; yet that i speak no word to vindicate them from his answer , and therefore he gathers that by this time ● see that now some personal priviledges ▪ which a few of the jews had , may be denied us , yet it makes nothing against his argument ; but if the common priviledges which every one of them had were denied us , our priviledges were straitned . answ. mr. m. doth not rightly say i spake not a word to vindicate my instances from his answer . for besides all or most of those twenty things either in my exercit. sect . . or in my examen , par . . sect . , , , , . and elsewhere , which do enervate his answer , i did directly reply , that neither was his priviledge of the initial seal to infants any other then personal , not a branch of the covenant of grace common to all in covenant , for which by vertue of the covenant they might rely upon god ; and for this i alledged the faithfull before abraham , melchizedek and lot in his time , job and cornelius after his time ; and therefore if the want of priviledges personal , as he terms them , doth not shew a straitning of gods grace to us now , neither doth the want of infant visible churchmembership and baptism now shew it . that of melchizedek , lot , and job , mr. m. saith , hath been often answered ; but he hath no where shewed , that they were not in the covenant of grace , or that by vertue of the covenant they and their infants had right to the initial seal . and as for cornelius , i never intended to prove , that he was a member of the church of the jews , nor that the priviledges and churchmembership of these proselytes of the gate were as honourable as those of the proselytes of the covenant , but that though he were in the covenant of grace , yet he had not the priviledge of churchmembership in the church of the jews , nor circumcision ; and therefore these priviledges , whatever they were , were not branches of the covenant of grace common to all in covenant for which by vertue of the covenant they might rely on god , as mr. m. asserted . to what i said , to be father of the faithfull , mother of christ , the priviledges rom. . . & . . do as much belong to the covenant of grace as circumcision , mr. m. answers nothing . upon the words by me used , that the phrases rom. . ● , . do seem to me to import , that the jews had this priviledge to have their children reckoned in the outward administration , as branches of the olive by their birth , which the gentiles have not , ( which speech i have altered in the first part of this review , p. , . ) mr. m. asks , but if we gentiles have it not , then are not we , i pray you , straightned in that particular ? answ. yea. and i demand further , when we are graffed in and so naturalized with them , do we not partake of all the fatness or priviledges of the olive with them ? what scripture ever denied it ? answ. that we by ingraffing are made natural branches , is denied ▪ it is granted , we are partakers of all the fatness and priviledges of the olive , to wit , spiritual graces , but not of the priviledges which the natural branches had by birth . mr. m. adds . i demand yet further , did the many ten thousands of jews who were baptized in the apostles days , by their comming under this best administration of the covenant , and thereby kept their former growing in the olive with advantage ; did they thereby deprive their children of that which you say was their natural priviledge ? if you think so , produce your evidence to prove it ; if they were not , then it seems the jews who believed in christ , and kept their station , had a greater priviledge for their children then the gentiles , who grow to together with them , have for their children . answ. the natural priviledge which i say the jews had , was , that their children were in the visible church jewish , and their males to be circumcised ; this by their baptism they were deprived of , it being then no priviledge , after christ exhibited in the flesh and preached , to be in the visible church jewish opposite to the christian , and to be circumcised . nor is it true , that the converted baptized jews were in the olive afore they believed in christ , or kept their station in the visible church jewish , but were cast out , or that they should have had greater priviledges of the covenant for their children , if they had continued in the visible church jewish , and been to be circumcised , then the gentiles , whose children were not visible christian visible churchmembers , nor to be baptized , as is abundantly proved by me from scripture and otherwise in the foreparts of this review . to mr. ms. speech , as if we expunged infants out of the covenant , it was answered , that it was a calumny , whereto he replies , but do not you avouch , that the infants of the jews had this peculiar priviledge and birth-right to be under the administration of the covenant , which ours have not ? answ. i still avouch it in the sense the phrase seems to be taken for being jewish visible churchmembers , and to be circumcised ; but what he adds , which you know is the onely thing controverted betwixt us , is manifestly false , it being never so much as questioned by me . he adds , may not i boldly say , that once the infants of all covenanters had this priviledge ? answ. no. may i not also exact of you to shew when and where this was taken away ? answ. it hath been often shewed , infant-male circumcision in the synod , act. . , . infants churchmembership matth. . . were taken away , of which there is enough said before , sect . , &c. where infant visible churchmembership is proved to be altered , and yet infants not expunged out of the covenant of the gospel , as mr. m. suggests . on the contrary , mr. ms. conceit as if the denying them visible churchmembership and baptism were putting them out of the covenant of grace , i intimated to come too near the popish opinion , of the necessity of infants baptism to their salvation , which i thought worth answering , sith it is all one in my conceit to say , that by denying baptism to them we put them out of the covenant , and to say we damn them , it being certain none are saved but those who are in the covenant of grace . to that which he saith of our doctrine bringing discomfort to parents , in that we leave their infants in the state of infidels , account them actually to belong to the visible kingdome of the devil deny them the benefit of the promise i will be the god of thee and thy seed , acknowledge no more promise for them , then for the children of turks i answer , these are meer calumnies sufficiently discovered to be so , exam. par . . sect . . apolog. sect . . sect . lxxxv . mr. cobbers dictates , just. vindic. par . . ch . . touching childrens baptismal right , are examined and refelled . mr. cobbet just. vindic . par . . sect . . sets down this as his position , that the initiatory seal follows the covenant ; but he proves it not : and whereas to the objection against it , that from adams time to abrahams , there was no initiatory seal to those who were in covenant ; nor in abrahams time to melchizedek , lot , job ; he answers , that such extraordinary cases and times are very impertinently urged by some to inf●ringe the force of ordinary rules and principles : i say , his answer is insuff●cient . for . this onely is an answer where it is proved that there is such an ordinary rule and principle from which these cases swerve : but no such rule or principle can be shewed of an initiatory seal belonging to persons in covenant , from which this should be counted an exception ; therfore this is not an extraordinary case . . besides , extraordinary cases make a just exception from an ordinary rule for some , by reason of some peculiar accident not happening to others : but to all in covenant from adam to abraham , there is not , nor can be shewed any such peculiar accident which happened not to others , which was the reason of omitting an initiatory seal by those in covenant : ergo , it was not because of extraordinary cases that it was omitted , but because there was no such rule . . extraordinary cases are few and rare , but the omission of an initiatory seal was constant , and universal by those in covenant until abrahams time , therefore it was not an extraordinary case . . extraordinary cases and times are but for a little while : but this omission was for above . years , which me thinks mr. c. should not so dote as to count an extraordinary time ; sure the time wherein circumcision was in force was shorter , and it was in that time often omitted , and therefore we may by mr. cs. dictates as well say , the initiatory seal was extraordinary , and the ordinary rule was , that those in covenant were not to have an initiatory seal , specially considering that even in abrahams time , and after , it was omitted by melehizdek , lot , job . nor is it of any weight to say that there was not a visible political church then ; for. . no doubt in their families were visible political churches as well as in abrahams . . the initiatory seale , as they call it , might and was to be to persons without a visible political church as to the eunuch acts. . to moses children in midian &c nor is it of any weight to say these churches were not to continue : for . that is not so certain as to be taken for granted . . abrahams posterity were not to continue still the church of god , though they were to continue longer then the posterity of j●b and lot. . but if this were a sufficient reason , why they should not have an initiatory seal solemnly instituted for them , because they were not sucessively to continue , then should not the churches which were not successively to continue ( of which doubtless there were many from whom the candlestick was quickly removed ) have had baptism instituted for them . . by mr. cs. reasoning , his rule the initiatory seal followes the covenant must bee thus limited , in ordinary times and cases when and where there is a visible political church which is successively to continue . which if it were granted him , yet it will never serve his turn to prove this universal proposition , from which paedobaptists infer infant baptism , all that are in the covenant are to have the initiatory seal or to be baptized . but neither is it true in ordinary times , where there is a visible political church successively to continue . for it is not true of those in covenant in abrahams house , neither the females , nor males of seven dayes old onely were to have the initiatory seal , though in covenant . to that which is said , that the females had not a superfluous fore●skin , besides what hath been said before to the contrary , i say . this however infringeth mr. cs. rule , that in ordinary times in visible political churches successively to continue , the seal initiatory follows the covenant , for it doth not so in the female hebrews . . if gods will had been as mr. c. would have it , he could have appointed an initiatory seal common to females with males . but what saith m. c. to the instance of the males of . days only to infringe his rule ? i find nothing except this be an answer , in that case of the females as in some other , that law of circumcision had something peculiar in it , albeit it had other things in common with that of baptism , which i take to be a sufficient proof against him , that the rule of circumcision is not a rule to us about baptism ; and that his proposition is not true , that in ordinary times and cases , respecting the political visible church and its administrations , such little ones as are of parents in such visible church-state , they have external right unto the injoyned initiatory visible seal , of which they are outwardly capable , and ought not to be denied the use and benefit of it . there is also an objection against the principle fore-mentioned , all that are in covenant are to have the initial seal , or as mr. c. speaks , the initiatory seal followes the covenant , that if the connexion bee between seal and covenant , it is as well besween the after seal as the initial , and so they may as well plead for infants comming to the lords supper , as in cyprians time , and as the young ones of the jews did partake of the passeover . to this mr. c. saith , male infants were not to appear at the passeover , if so , then they must appear at the feast of tabernacles & must carry boughes , from deut. . ●● , . compared with levit. . , , , , . that though persons have a covenant right in general , yet their jus in re is to be suspended and not elicited in case of incapacity , or of extream coldness of the countrey , or sickness &c. answ. . if infants were not to appear at the passeover , yet young children not to be admitted to the lords supper were , nor doth the text tie them all to carry boughs who were to appear . . the objection holds as much concerning the yong ones at jerusalem , who were to eat the passeover , and by mr. cs. reasons such yong ones should be at the lords supper , as having covenant interest and therefore jus ad rem , nor is there any such incapacity or danger to them in eating the lords supper to suspend their jus in re , as is to be baptized in greenland , or in extreme weakness and sickness ; and therefore ●y mr. cs. reasons they ought not to be denied the lords supper . . if infants covenant-right to the lords supper be su●pended because of their defect of understanding to examine themselves , their covenant-right to baptism is as justly susp●nded til they repent and believe , which are as much and more required to baptism as self examination to the lords supper . and if it be true then mr. cs. position is not right , that infants ought not to be denied the use and benefit of baptism . . if it were in cyprians time a corruption to give infants the lords supper , so it was to baptize them , being on the same reason of no greater an●iquity . but let 's view what hee saith for the clearer handling of his thesis . sect. . he saith , that mixt commands of god having some part circumstantial and vanishing , some part substantial and abiding , the later is binding to us since christs time , albeit the former be not ; and he instanceth in a th . day sabbath : but neither he nor any other have yet proved any such substantial part abiding in the command of circumcision , and how little the instance given i● to his purpose , is shewed before , § . , , . that which mr. c. saith sect . . is granted , that consequential commandements grounded on scripture are scripture commandements , but that any command o● a positive rite in the old testament is a command to us about a positive right of the new , or that in mere positive worship that should not be excluded which is not expressed , is not granted ; to the contrary somewhat is said in the d part of this review , § . , , . and elsewhere . i have often said prove infant baptism by good consequence , and i shall yeild . that federal ordinances , such as are the seals , are as well priviledges as precepts , which mr. c. sect . . asserts , when they are rightly admininistred , is granted ; but it is denied that the passeover , baptism , the lords supper , are federal ordinances or seals of the covenant of grace in mr. cs. sense , who p. ● . makes circumcision in the nature of it to bee a seal of the righteousness of faith ; and in like manner those ot●er , which he cals federal ordinances , seals of the promise of the covenant of grace , of the righteousness of faith in their nature . there ●s not a word acts . ▪ . by which it may appear that circumcision of the child was reckoned as the fathers priviledge , nor their own circumcision as their priviledge , but only of abr●ham that god g●ve him the covenant of circumcision , whereby he was assured of a son by sarah , & so he b●gate isaac and circumcised him the th . day , which priviledg was peculiar to abraham , and to none other i know , excep● zachary john baptists father be said ●o have the same priviledge , nor is rom . , , , . any whit to m cs purpose , to prove that circumcision is reckoned as the fathers priviledge . for . it is manifest that rom. . . circumcision is to be understood metonymically , as v. . for the circumcised , sith it is not sold there was much profit by circumcision but of circumcision , as before , what advantage of the jew ? nor was the priviledge v● . the committing the oracles of god to them , the priviledge of circumcision in the abstract or by circumcision as the means by which it was , but the priviledge of that people who were circumcised . . if it were granted that the priviledge were by circumcision , yet that it was the fathers pri●iledge by reason of the childs circumcision rather then his own , is a vain fancy . nor doth acts . , . yeild any more to his purpose , but is most g●osly abused by mr. c. as is shewed before § . , nor are the passages which he alledgeth p. . out of my examen , dissonant to any passages before or any after , except those words of my examen p. ● . which i alter in the first ; part of this review , p. , . and to his many questions from my words . i answer , that ●e hath not proved the covenant of grace , wherein god promiseth to be a god to them and theirs , to b●long to every jew , but onely to abraham and his seed , that is , so far as it is evangeliacl on●ly to his spiritual seed whether of jewes or gentile , and therefore i deny it was a priviledge which every jew had , to be a god to them and theirs ; and yet grant that deut. . . with ● . was a priviledge , and so i yeeld to have been what god promised ezek . from the to the end , and deut. . . and that sundry infants of the jews b●se born w●re in the covenant of saving grace and church-priviledges , and that it was a priviledge to them , and that the promises of the covenant of grace are priviledges , and the same now to believers and as large and honourable as then , and that the promises to their children mentioned deut. . . were of the substance of the covenant of grace , in respect of the thing promised , but not in respect of the persons to whom , for god doth not promise to all his elect or t●ue believers , that which he promised then in that case to the israelites for their seed , and i yeild that even base born children may bee in the covenant of saving grace , and yet these promises are not made to church children , ( as mr. c. speaks ) ●s such , but onely to the elect . nevertheless i grant the same promises now to bee made to believers , which were then , to wit , rigtheousness and life eternal by faith yea that they are larger now , no intensively in respect of the thing promised , as if a greater degree of righteousness and eternal life , were promised now then was then , but extensively in respect of the people to whom the gentiles now being cal●ed , and t●at mo●e amply th●n the jews , nor do i or any thing i say exclu●e believers children out of the covenant . but i still say , the covenant of grace was no made then universally to a believer and his natural seed nor now , but onely to the elect of them . yet this is not an ex●lusion of any in particular from the covenant of grace , nor an inclusion , but onely a suspension of any determination of either , who are elect , and who not being onely known to god. and therefore to mr. cs. question why are belie●ers children then excluded the covenant ? which injuriously insinuates and i did exclude them , i say , let him answer it that doth so . and th●ugh i grant that our priviledges now are inlarged , in respect of the administration of the covenant , in that the gospel is preached to more nations and more clearly , and confirmed by the bloud of christ &c then before ●hrists comming ( which ●s my meani●g in that speech ) yet it neith●r follows tha● i count that administration of the covenant initiatory seal ( which is mr cs●erms ●erms not mine ) as s●ch to their children was no priviledge to there must be such a like priviledge and not stra●●ned , at least not wholly excluded as that of a like , though mr. c● say not the same , but a like administration of the initiatory covenant-seal , to in-churched believers children now , as mr. c. in his gibberish speaks . and though i say we have nothing in lieu of circumcision , but christ come in the flesh ; yet i do not say , nor need i , that baptism is no priviledge to believers now : but i deny it to be a priviledge in lieu of circumcision , and say that as mr. c. grants it a priviledge to believers , that now they have not that manner of initiation by circumcision , so it is a priviledge to them that they have no manner of initiation in lieu of it . what he saith he hath shew'd before from ez. . , , . is examin'd before . sect. . mr. c. saith , baptism is a seal of the covenant , no bare badge of christianity as some have said , albeit the more judicious of our opposites yeild this , that the covenant of grace is said properly to be sealed in baptism , and that baptism since christs incarnation is the appointed seal of god to such as enter into covenant with him . answ. it is true that i said exam p. . the covenant of grace is sealed properly in baptism , but mr. c. might have taken notice , that . i used not this phrase as mine , but as mr. ms. . that i did yeild this but three lines before with this caution , baptism seals the love of god in some sense properly . . that not long after i say , that in exactness of speech it seals no grace properly , taking it for propriety of speech , but improperly , because metaphorically , as sealing is taken for assuring . . i say as properly , notes propriety of right , or title , or possession , in opposition to anothers , or that which is alien , it seals as much the second as the first grace . and indeed this is my meaning , that though in propriety of speech baptism may not be said to be the seal of the covenant of grace properly , sith it is but a metaphor or term translated from another thing , and so shews not what the thing is , but what in some respect it is like to : yet it may bee thus termed the seal of the covenant of grace properly , that is , as the seal of a deed assutes the thing conveyed in it to him that hath propriety in it , so baptism in that thereby we put on christ , doth signifie to the true believer that he hath union and communion with him , and that he hath thereby a propriety of right to righteousness and life by christ , according to the covenant of grace . but this doth no whit contradict what i have disputed before sect . . against mr. ms. and others doctrine , about sacraments being seals of the covenant of grace . nor did i use the words , that baptism since christs incarnation is the appointed seal of god to such as enter into covenant with him , exam. p. . as mine own expression , but as mr. ms. though i granted the thing meant by it . yet had i so said of my self , it had not been for mr. cs. turn , who will have it a seal of gods covenant to us , whereas those words as i yeild them , rather import it to be our seal whereby we enter into covenant with god , and engage to him , which is the most genuine use of baptism , and in that respect rightly termed a badge of christianity . but mr. c. would prove it a seal of the covenant in another sense , thus . and it appears so , saith he , . in that it agrees in the essentials with circumcision as an initiatory seal , col. , . which speech is ambiguous , and yet in no sense , i conceive , true . it is doubtfull whether he mean that to be the initiatory seal is the essentials of circumcision , and of baptism , but this sense is false : for to be a seal is not essential either to the one or the other , the circumcision of the sichemites was circumcision , though it were no seal to them of the covenant of abraham ; and simon magus his baptism was baptism , though it were no seal to him of the covenant of grace , much less is it of the essence of either to bee initiatory , for if there were or might be another initiatory seal ( as doubtless there might be if god had so appointed it ) yet circumcision and baptism had not been circumcision and baptism , now what may be or not be without the ceasing of the thing to be is but an accident to it , not of the essence of it . besides , to be the initiatory seal of the covenant of grace , doth more truly agree to the spirit of god , then to either of them . or whether he mean , that they agree in those things which are the essentials of each , but that is more palpably false , for it is essential to circumcision that the fore-skin be cut off , but that is not essential to baptism , there may bee baptism without it . nor is there a word col. . . that either expresseth this thing or yeilds any ground for proof of it , as is shewed before by me here § . . as vain is that which follows , whence baptized gentiles are said to be of the circumcision , phil. . and jews said to be baptized , cor. . for neither are gentiles , philip. . . termed the circumcision , because they were baptized , nor the jews said to be baptized , cor. . . because they were circumcised , or because of the agreement of these in the essentials . but the converted gentiles , not all that were baptized ; but onely those , who were true believers are termed the circumcision in opposition to the judaizing teachers termed befor v. . the concision by a figure of speech , termed eutelism , or slighting them in that in which they gloried ; and they are termed the circumcision , because they were truly circumcised before god in heart , and were his people . and the jews cor. . . are said to be baptized no otherwise then the gentiles who believed , who were not circumcised in the flesh , and therefore could not be termed baptized because circumcised ; but christian believers , whether jews or greeks , bond or free , are all said to be baptized , and to be made to drink , because they were baptized with water , and did partake of the lords supper , as cor. . . mr. c. adds more of these toys . hence first instituted for a seal to the circumcised jews ; to shew it was in the essentials of sealing abrahams covenant to them , but the same with circumcision in a manner ; onely as that sealed it to them visibly in christ , as to come , this did it in like sort in reference to christ as come ; that was the seal of the righteousness of abrahams faith , or that whereon his faith acted to righteousness of justification , rom. . . even the promise of grace in christ , rom. . , . with deut. . . wherein . he dictates , without any pretence of proof , that baptism was first instituted to the jews to shew that which he says ; nor is there the least intimation thereof in scripture . . he seems to me to unsay by his limitation [ in a manner ] what he said before , it was the same in the essentials . for that which is the same in the essentials is altogether the same , and not in a manner . . it is false that baptism was the same in the essentials of sealing abrahams covenant to the jews with circumcision : for it was as much in the essentials of sealing abrahams covenant to the jews ( if i may use mr. cs. gibberish ) that circumcision sealed the promise of the land of canaan , gen. . , , , &c. as that it sealed christ to come ; but surely baptism never sealed the promise of the land of canaan . that which i find of the seal of the righteousness of faith , rom. . . is meant of abrahams personal circumcision , and of no other , and therefore is inep●ly applied to prove sameness of sealing of others circumcision and baptism . . i conceive it somewhat inconsiderately said , that circumcision was the seal of the righteousness of abrahams faith , which would imp●y , that it assured that abraham faith was righteous , wherea● the meaning is , that it assured that abraham had righteousness by faith before he was circumcised , as v. . he had asserted . . the other explication is worse , for it i●timates as if the apostle meant that the righ●eou●ness of faith ascribed to abraham is to termed , as that whereon his faith a●ted to righteousness of justification , even the promise of g●ace in christ , whereas the meaning is not that it sealed the righteousness he was to obtain by acting fa●th in a promise , but that it was a seal of the righteousness of faith which he had many years before he was circumcised . mr. c. goes on in the same v●in of dictating thus . hence when christ is called the minister of circumcision , it is thus explained by the end of the sign administred , ●cil . to confirm the promises made unto the fathers , rom ▪ . . act. . . gen. . ● . which speech seems to intimate , as if christ were termed the minister of circumcision , as if he did minister circumcision to that end , to confirm the promises : but that is too absurd for such a man to vent , sith he ministr●d ●ircumcision to none ; and the meaning is plain , that he was the minister of circumcision , that is of the circumcised jews among who●●he preached and lived , as peter is said gal. . . to have had the apostlesh● of the circumcision , that is of the circum●ised jews : and in this sense ●eza , willet , diodati the new annot. dicson , piscator , &c. expound it . now this being promised , it is ea●●e to perc●ive how i●per●inently this ●ext , w●ich mentions not at all baptism , nor any use of circumcision at all , but onely the end of christs ministery among the circumcised is alledged , to prove that baptism ag●ees in the essentials with circumcision as an initiatory seal the texts , act. . . gen . ● . a●eas little t● the purpose , there b●ing no mention of baptism , and they onely proving what is not denied , that circumcision was the token of abrahams●ovenant ●ovenant as little is that w●ich follows , hence the promise premised and then baptism annexed as the seal , act. . . for neither is it proved , that the promise there is the same with abrahams covenant , and how pi●●ifully mr. c. mistakes the meaning of it is shewed before , sect . , . nor a word about baptism as a seal annex●d to the p●omise but an exhortation to repent and be baptized in the name of jesus christ for remission of sins and ●ssurance of the gift of the holy ghost , which are annexed to repentance as much as to baptism what he adds , hence that washing annexed to the word , ephes. . , . but that the word there is the word of promise , much less of abrahams covenant gen. , or that it is mentioned as sealed by baptism , or tha● therein it agrees with circumcision , is not proved . the word is the gospel preached by which men are made believers , and then baptized , and so purified , as act. . . tit. . . act. . . & . . job . . . & . . &c. nor is it any more pertinent which follows . . saith he , it●s a baptizing in the name or covenant-fellowship of god the father , son , and spirit : he having exalted his word above all his name , psal. . . wherein . he seems to expound baptizing , matth. . . into the name of the father , son , and spirit , thus , into the covenant-fellowship ; which is somewhat strange , there being neither there , nor elsewhere ( where the like phrase is used ) any mention of covenant , or covenant fellowship ; and his arguing , god hath exalted his word above all his name , psal. . . ergo , baptizing is in the name and covenant-fellowship of god the father , son , and spirit , is a baculo ad angulum . . but were his exposition allowed , yet what this is to prove that baptism is a seal of the covenant , gen. . or any other covenant , i am yet to divine . is baptizing all one with sealing ? is covenant-fellowship all one with the covenant ? . saith he , it 's a seal of the remission of sins , and therefore of the promise tendering the same , hence joyned , act. . , . act. . but neither is the promise there joyned as a thing sealed by baptism , but as a motive to the duties of repentance and baptism ; nor is the remission of sins mentioned as sealed by baptism , but as a consequent obtained by repentance and baptism as conditions pre-required thereto ; nor is a seal of remission of sins all one with a seal of the covenant . . saith he , the nature of it sheweth the same , it being a gospel sacrament , and that is a visible seal , and the seal is to the covenant ; hence called by the name , act. . . cor. ● . answ. . the term sacrament , as it is applied to the rites of baptism and the lords supper , is no scripture term , nor any other answerable to it in that use ; it 's a term , as i said rightly in my plea for antipaedobaptists , sect . ● . invented by the latine fathers meaning for that use . mr craggs reply in his pamphlet , termed the arraignment and conviction of anaba●tism , that it is used in the twelve tables , in tully pro milone , shews he had a mind to cavil rather then to answer fairly ; nor is the book throughout any other then a fardle of mistakings in logick , and meaning of scripture , and of cavils against my words , mixt with much poetical lightness , and scoffing , to which there 's no need i should return any more then the archangels words , the lord rebuke thee . . nor is there any common nature of ●acraments that i know of delivered or inti●ated in scripture ; either that of the schoolmen out of austin that they are visible signs of invisible grace ; or of the protestants who are terme calvinists , that they are seals of the covenant of grace : and therefore mr. c should first prove that to be of the nature of a gospel sacrament , as the term is used , afore he inferred so much as he doth from it . a seal it is true , is to a covenant sometimes , and sometimes it is to a decree , writ , letter , record of a thing done , and so it is taken rom. . . where abraham , circumcision is not said to be a seal of the covenant wherein something further was promised , but of the righteousness of faith which he had before attained . . act. . . the covenant of grace is not called by the name of a gospel sacrament , but the covenant made with abraham , gen. . is onely termed the covenant of circumcision , because it was signified by it , which was no gospel , but a law rite . the cup in the lords supper , cor. . . is termed the new testament in christs bloud , wherein there seems to be an hypallage and inversion by the words as they are in matth. ch . . . mar. . and by considering that of the bread he spake thus , this is my body , and therefore the words of the cup seem to be most fitly thus placed and expounded , this cup , that is the wine in it , is my bloud , that is signifies my bloud , which is the bloud of the new testament , that is by which the new testament is dedicated as the old was by the bloud of calves and goats , heb. . , , . now herein is the notion rather of a testament then of a covenant , and what is said is said of the cup onely in the lords supper , not of baptism : nor is it named the covenant , but the bloud of the new testament , or the new testament in christs bloud ; nor is the term seal there used , and therefore there is not a word to prove baptism to be in its nature a seal of the covenant of grace , in this or any other of the texts mr. c. alledgeth . i pass over that which he saith , secondly baptism is an initiatory seal , as agreeing with him in the position , that baptism is that which is to be first afore the lords supper , though his phrases be misliked . i agree with him also , that baptism being once administred , needs never be renewed , if done according to christs institution . yet what i said , exam. par . . sect . . seems to me to stand good , notwithstanding any thing here said by mr. c. nor do i think it fit to question whether it be the onely initiatory seal . the th . section contains nothing but dictates without proof , and what is said by way of proof is answered either sect . . &c. in the animadversions on the d. ch . of the first part of mr. cs. book , or in answer to mr. carter , sect . . in which it is shewed , that there is no reference made gen. . to a church covenant distinct from the covenant of grace , nor any command given gen. . , . to a gentile believer and his seed , nor any general law about an initiatory seal never repealed , as mr. c. and others fain . and for his speech he useth , that the hebrew church albeit quà such a political church and national , &c. differ from congregational churches ; yet qua visibilis ecclesia politica & ordinaria ▪ so it was essentially the same with ours ; it seems to intimate , that the church of the hebrews , though as such a political church it was national , yet not as a visible church political and ordinary , as if it were any otherwise a visible political ordinary church then as such a church : and when he saith , as a church visible political ordinary it was essentially the same with ours , he can mean it no otherwise then of the same numerical essence ; for as visible and political the essence is determined to hic & nunc , an universal generical or specifical church is not visible and political . but that is false , sith if the persons be not the same , they cannot have the same numerical essence : nor can he mean it , that it is essentially the same with ours as visible in the same form of government , for then he must make ours pontificial ; nor in the same title to church-membership , for then he must make ours national : nor can he avoid it if he will maintain this plea , that the jewish church was essentially the same with ours , and as their infants were circumcised as children of churchmembers , in a church visible , political , ordinary , which was national , so ours upon the same reason are to bee baptized , but that hee must set up a national church by natural generation , nor can they of n. e justifie their way of excluding such children from the lords supper for ignorance , if they may for scandal . the old objection , which mr. c. falsly terms cavil touching covenant females , is not yet answered , nor ever will be , it will still infringe this universal proposition , all that are in covenant with reference to church covenant are to have the initiatory seal for a time , and so will also that of jobs family , which why it should not be counted a visible political ordinary church , as well as abrahams house in his time i see not , and if none are to be baptized but such as are in an ordinary visible political church to abide , how can they of n. e. baptize the infants of such church-members , as whether in n. e. or old do not abide , but are quickly dissolved as we see by experience ? and if none but those who are in the covenant of grace in reference to church covenant are to be baptized , but though believers because in rome or india they are not a formed matter of a political visible church but they are as materia informis , they are quoad homines actually without , and not within any political visible church , how was the eunuch baptized acts ? and if the covenant of grace nakedly considered giveth a person which is actually in it , a remote right to the initiatory seal , but it doth not give an immediate right thereto ▪ for so the covenant of grace as invested with church covenant onely giveth this proximate right to that seal god being the god of order , will have that his church seal to be attained in a way of order ; as of old strangers might not be circumcised , but with some submission to that church order explicitely or implicitely , and so now , and the order be as mr. c in the th . section determines , to be observed of communion in breaking bread after they were baptized , how do those of n. e. admit to brea●ing of bread , those who who onely as born in a parish were baptized in infancy , without another baptism ? that either matth. . , . or any where else the orderly and ordinary dispensation of the seal is committed to the visible church . is more then i finde ; nor do i know it necessary to right order that believers must be of a particular visible church afore they be baptized . if catechumini in covenant and visible church estate might bee hindered from baptism for trial for a time , much more should infants of whom we have no knowledge concerning their future or present estate , be in prudence put off from baptism till there be some trial of th●m , if their right were , as mr. c. doth , though falsly imagine . sect. . mr. c. speaks thus , and because in this particular some stress of the main case is put , . i shall endeavour yet fu●ther to confi●m it , that covenan● interest carrieth a main stroak in point of application of that seal , to persons interested therein , and not uncapable thereof in any bodily respect . answ. this proposition being that in which some stress , or as i conceive , the whole stress of the main case is put , should have been delivered more clearly , and confirmed more fully , but as now it is , it is delivered ambiguously , and so is fitter to delude a reader then to instruct him . that seal which was last mentioned was baptism , but the proofs following shew that he meant it of circumcision , and as if there were the same reason of circumcision and of baptism ( which neither he nor any paedobaptist ever proved ) what is said of circumcision is by him meant of baptism , and so the reader merely mocked . the application of baptism or circumcision may either refer to gods appl●ing it by way of command , or mans by way of administration , and in this i think mr. cs. speeches are delusory , sometimes meant of gods application by way of command , and sometimes of the administrators act in circumcising or baptizing . the phrase of carrying the main stroak is likewise ambiguous , and so delusory , it being uncertain whether it carry the main stroke with god as his motive to appoint it , or with the administratour as his rule and warrant to do it . and when he terms it the main stroak , it had been requisite hee should tell whether there be not some other thing which carries a stroak if not the main , yet so great , as that without it the application of the seal is not warrantable , as profession of faith by the person to whom it is to bee applied . hee might have understood by my examen , which he had to answer , that i took it a great fault in mr. m. that hee did not more distinctly tell what hee meant by the covenant , being in covenant , which hee speaks of infants of believers . and sure if mr. c. had meant to deal rightly , as one that sought truth , and to shew my errour , he should have cleared what covenant hee meant inward or outward , the covenant of gospel grace purely delivered , or the mixt covenant made with abraham gen. . what the church covenant is , how the covenant of grace is invested with it , when a church is a political visible body , how a church covenant is the form of it , who and what persons and how they are interested in it , whether by gods promise , their own faith or profession or anothers , or by the churches admission . all which , or at least many of them , are requisite to bee distinctly declared , that a reader may clearly understand his meaning , and so examine his proof . and whether the exception of incapacity in any bodily respect , be meant onely because of the females circumcision , or thereby infants are excepted from baptism , who have not the use of their tongues to profess the faith of christ , and are not well able to brook that dipping or plunging ( which for all mr. cs. scriblings , is and will be found the onely way of baptizing appointed by christ ) is uncertain . this were a sufficient reason for me to answer no further to this proposition , but to wait till his bill be mended yet i shall examine his proofs of this , which should be his meaning , if he spake to his purpose ; that the interest which a person though an infant hath to the covenant of grace , in that he is a believers child by vertue of the promise of god to a believer and his seed , when that believer is a member of a visible political church by church covenant explicit or implicit , is a sufficient warrant to that visible political church to admit , and to the elder to baptize that infant without any other revelation of god , or profession of the infant . let 's now see what mr. c. brings for proof of this . first , saith he , then it is the ground-work given to the general law about an initiatory covenant duty , scil . application of some injoyned initiatory seal , and therefore must be of like force in the particular branches and ways of such initiatory sealing , as circumcision and baptizing . answ. such a general law is a mere fiction , and what is meant by the ground-work of it is uncertain . gen. . , . is no other law but about circumcision , the word rendred [ therefore ] may bee otherwise translated , if it were the onely reading yet the sense might be this , because i make this covenant thou shalt therefore circumcise thy males to keep it in remembrance , or to assure thee and thy posterity that i will perform it . but that there is any such intimation as if the persons circumcised were circumcised as and for their interest in that covenant is a mere dream often refuted by mee , much more is it a dotage to assert , that according to a persons interest in that covenant or a part of it , as mr. c. conceives , so they have right to baptism in the christian church . secondly , saith mr. c. the covenant in such sort invested with church covenant , now it is the form of a political visible church body ; giving therefore , both a church-being as i may say , as natural forms do a natural being , and withall the priviledge of a member of such a church-body , suitable to its memberly estate , as if this of the church initiatory seal , even to the least member thereof , although they are not yet so perfect in all actual energy of compleat members , and so neither in all actual priviledges of such compleat members . i suppose what ever others deny this way , yet our opposites do not deny , that church-covenant explicit or implicit is the form of a visible political church as such , so that till that bee , they are not so incorporated as to bee fit for church dispensations , or acts of peculiar church power over each other , more then over others , over whom they can have no power , unless they had given explicit or implicit consent thereto : as reason will evince . answ. this reason as i conceive goes upon these suppositions , which mr. c. conceives will not be denied . . that there is a church-covenant over and besides gods covenant of gospel grace , and mans believing and professing of faith in him through jesus christ , whereby the members of a visible political church do engage themselves to walk together in christian communion , and to submit to their rulers , and to each other in the lord. now such a church covenant , though i confess it may be according to prudence at some times and in some cases usefull to keep persons , who otherwise would bee unsetled , in a fixed estate of communion , yet i find not any example of such a church covenant in the old or new testament , and in some cases it may insnare mens consciences more then should be . . that the covenant of grace , whether gods promise to us or ours to god invested with church covenant , that is , as i conceive mr. cs. meaning to be , together with it , is the form of a visible political church , which gives it the being of such a church , as such , so that till that be they are not so incorporated as to be fit for church dispensations , or church power . in which i conceive are many mistakes . . that the sacraments are seals , or church dispensations are committed to the church , which are not committed to the church , which consists of men and women , but to the guides and over-seers of it . . that church power , or as mr. cotton in his treatise of the keyes of the church , the power of the keyes is committed or given to the church ; in which are mistakes that either censures ecclesiastical , or as the schoolmen and canonists term it , the power of ordination and jurisdiction ecclesiastical are meant by the keyes , matth. ● . . or that they were given to peter as representing the church : the scripture doth no where commit church dispensations or power to the church , but to the guides , and overseers and rulers of the church for the church . that till a company of believers be a visible poli●ical church , they are not fit for church dispensations or censures : which i conceive not true , there being examples in scripture of their breaking bread together , acts . who were not such a political visible church of fixed members under fixed officers united by church covenant , as mr. c. describes . nor were christ and his apostles such a church when first they did break bread . nor did christ appoint baptism matth. . . to be onely in and with such a church , nor do the exampls acts . or . or or or . intimate any such condition , but rather the contrary . . that the covenant of grace with a church covenant fore mentioned , give the being of such a visible church political . but the covenant of grace of it self doth not give any actual being , it is a promise of something future , and therefore puts nothing in actual being extra causas , but assures it shall bee by some cause in act , which in this thi●g is the calling of god , from which the church and each member have their being as from the efficient , from faith in the heart as the form of the invisible church and each member , from profession of faith as the form of the visible church and each member , as ames . med. th. lib. . cap. . sect. . that which makes it political is the union under officers and lawes , without a church covenant it is a political visible church , if there bee but at present an union or conjunction in the same profession of christian faith under officers and lawes of a number of christians they are a church visible political , though they should be dissolved the next hour , and though they enter into no covenant of church-fellowship or subjection for the future , and therefore church covenant is neither of the form of such a true church , nor ( as mr. weld in answer to mr. rathbard ) of a pure church , but it is a good means in prudence to conserve a church so constituted , that they may not divide and scatter from each other , but may continue in communion . . that by this incorporating they have peculiar church power over each other , and without tht church covenant they can have no power . but neither do i conceive this true . for the power whi●h christians have is to reprove , admonish , censure , shun society , chuse officers , reject false teachers , &c. this power they have by the laws of christ , without a church covenant . . that church dispensations and acts of peculiar church power are limited to those particular persons who joyn with us by church covenant . but this i conceive not right nor agreeable to such scriptures as these , cor. . . & . . & . . . it is supposed by mr. c. that the covenant with church covenant gives the priviledge of a member of such a church body suitable to its memberly estate , as is this of the church initiatory seal . but in this sure mr. c. is quite out and besides their own practise , who do not give the initiatory seal after they are members by church covenant , but baptize them or suppose them baptized in infancy , and then joyn them us members by church covenant ; now if church covenant did give the priviledge of the initiatory seal , then they should first enter into church covenant , and then have the initiatory seal or be baptized . . it is supposed by mr. c. that there are such little churchmembers by such a covenant as are to have the priviledge of the initiatory seal though they be not compleat members , so as to have the actual priviledge of the after seal , and other church power . but sure the scripture acknowledgeth in the christian church no members , but what partake of the lords supper as well as baptism ( as is manifest from cor. . . cor. . . ) and have church power as others of their sex and rank . now all these suppositions though they were granted ( except the last ) would not prove the thing mr. c. aims at , and that which he makes the main reason from whence he would infer the conclusion , namely , the covenant with church covenant gives being and priviledge of the initiatory seal makes against him , infants making no such church covenant , nor according to their own discipline doth their parents church covenant serve instead of the childs , sith afore the child can bee admitted to communion of breaking of bread , and other power of a member , and bee taken for a member , hee must himself enter into church covenant . thirdly , saith mr. c even in doubtfull cases , where the extent of the command is questionable , yet interest in the covenant casts the scoals . as for instance , in strangers which proved religious , albeit not of their family servants , and so under the law , gen. . , . they might be circumcised if they desired other church ordinances , &c. yet were they else free , unless in such a case of their own desire that way , exod. . end . hence cornelius a godly gentile , living near the jews yet not circumcised , acts. . , , , . compared with chap , , , . yea but if the command bound them , why were they circumcised ? suppose exod. . gave some liberty to the church guides that way , for such strangers as more usually dwelt amongst them ; yet such as kings . , , . which came from far , in a mere transient way , for some temporary religious worship at the temple , as that proselyted eunuch acts . . those were surely circumcised , else how admitted to temple worship , since that was counted an abomination , for any other so much as to come there , acts . . and if circumcised at any time by any of the godly church guides consent , what gave them right to it ? not the commandment , gen. . , , . no nor that exod. . what was that to an eunuchs case and others which never sojourned with them for any space ? were they then unlawfully circumcised ? no verily , no whisper of that in scripture ; god allowed of that passage in solomons prayer , touching the strangers temple service , kin. . & . explained . it was then their external interest in gods covenant , which gave rise to that application of the seal , and not the commandment ; contrary to what some say , that not the covenant , but the commandment of god onely , was the ground of circumcision . answ. that which i said in my exercit. p. . hence i gather , first , that the right to evangelical promises , was not the adequate reason of circumcising these or those , but gods prceept as is expressed gen. . . gen. . . secondly , that those terms are not convertible [ federate and to be signed ] and in my examen , p. . that nothing but gods will manifest in his institution can be a warrant about circumcision , p. . that the jews received circumcision as appointed them from god , under this formal reason , and no other , i have shewed before to have been acknowledged by mr. m. in his defence ; p. . when he said , the command is the cause of the existence of the duty : and p. . the formal reason of their being circumcised was the command of god. nor is it at all infringed by this reasoning of mr. c. those that were not bound without their desire to eat the passeover , and so not to be circumcised , yet if they would eat the passeover they were bound by an express command to be circumcised , exod. . , . whether their sojourning was constant , or for a time onely , which likely was the case of the eunuch , act. . who it 's probable was circumcised , because there is no mention of the baptizing any uncircumcised till cornelius , though there be no certainty whether the eunuch were a jew by birth , or a proselyte of the gentiles , or whether he formerly had his constant abode among the jews , either in palaestina , or elsewhere , or whether then he did sojourn among the jews then in aethiopia . but if he were a meer proselyte of the gate , yet he might come to the temple into the court of the gentiles to worship , as all acknowledge . dr. lightfoot of the temple service , ch . . mr. mede diatr . on act. . . &c. and therefore there is no proof from hence , that a person was circumcised by reason of the covenant , and not of the command : yea , though cornelius were in the covenant of grace , and had external covenant interest , in that he was known to worship the true god , yet was he not by reason thereof bound by god , or taken by the jews as one that was bound to be circumcised , or ever blamed for want of it ; which shews that neither was the covenant interest indeed , nor taken by the jews for the warrant or rule , or reason of circumcising , but the command of god. fourthly ( saith mr. c. ) it appears from the nature of an initiatory seal of the covenant , which must be as large as the covenant , and so reach all the parties comprehended actually by vertue of covenant , according as such children are , as before declared : especially , since it is the seal of gods people and visible church as before shewed , given first for the church , in giving of pastours and teachers onely to the church , which alone can administer the seals in ordinary dispensations , matth. . end , and giving them withall to the church , as from her to be dispensed by her officers , to such as desire the same . answ. in stead of proofs here is a heap of dictates , . that baptism is the initiatory seal of the covenant in its nature . . that it must be as large as the covenant . . that pastours and teachers given onely to the church can alone administer the seals in ordinary dispensations , matth. . , . . that the seals are given to the church , as from her to be dispensed by her officers , to such as desire the same . none of which will be yeelded by me , without better proof then i yet meet with . sure matth. . , . yeelds no proof for any of them . it proves baptism was to be administred by the apostles , not every seal by church officers . he goes on , now god people are known , either by actual profession and confession of their own , as adults are ; or by gods promise and by parents avouching god as theirs in covenant and their childrens , gen. . , . thou shalt do thus , and thus , and thy seed also ; to which he submitteth afterwards , and so his also with him and after him . answ. that gods people are known by gods promise , and by parents avouching god as theirs in covenant , and their childrens , is another dictate , which mr. c. brings not a shew of proof for out of the new testament ; nor doth that which he brings from gen. . , . prove it concerning the infants of the jewish church . for though there be a command to abraham and his posterity to circumcise , and this is termed keeping gods covenant , yet there is not a word of parents profession , or gods promise as making known who are gods people , no not in the jewish church , in which there were many to whom god made no promise , nor parents avouched for them , who were known as gods people by vertue of gods taking the whole nation for his church , even when the kings and people were idolaters . but if it were true that it were as mr. c. would , this proves nothing concerning the people of god in the christian church , in which none are known to be gods people , but by their own confession of saith . but mr. c. adds , besides the main in the initiatory seal to be firstly and properly attended , as it is a covenant and church seal is covenant and church interest . hence called by the name of covenant , when yet it is but a sacramental sign and seal of it , gen. . . act. . . that is first h●ld out and sealed , as the convoy of all other desired good , pet. . . but especially in that initiatory seal the signation of the covenant , is of more considerable weight , then the external symbole , ceremony and circumstance : either of cutting or washing absolutely or relatively considered . if washing of a person in the name of the trinity , be a clearer and easier symbole then that of cutting the flesh , yet not of such weight as is the covenant sealed both by the one and the other . and to shew that the covenant is the main thing considerable therein ; hence it is that the covenant is first propounded as the ground-work of the commandment it self , as of circumcision , so of baptism , and much more of the application of either , to any in covenant , gen. . , , . therefore , scil . because i have said i will be your god , i command you to do thus and thus ; not because i have commanded you , that i therefore promise to do this for you ; or do you thus and thus at my command , and then on , therefore i will do so and so for you . answ , after the rest of his dictates , he here tels us , the main in the initiatory seal to be attended is the covenant , which i grant ; but deny that it follows therefore , that the rule which the administrator is to observe , according to which he is to administer it , is the persons interest in the covenant , so as that he must administer it to all and onely those who are in covenant , or to whom the prom●se is made by god. for , besides the many reasons to the contrary , even concerning circumcision before given , mr. cs. own reason is against him . for if the main in the initiatory seal to be firstly and properly attended as it is a covenant and church seal , is covenant and church interest , and therefore infants in covenant to be circumcised and baptized ; by the same reason infants in covenant are to be admitted to the passeover , and to have the lords supper , sith they are seals , they are covenant and church seals , infants have covenant and church interest , in the initiatory seal these things are to be attended as it is a covenant and church seal , and therefore in every covenant and church seal as well as the initiatory . as for what he saith about gen. . , , . though i have sundry times observed that the reading [ v. . therefore ] is not necessary ; yet omitting that exception , i grant what he saith of that text , but withal note , . that the command is inferred not onely from the promise to be their god , but also from the promise of the land of canaan , v. . and therefore it might as well follow , they to whom god will give the land of canaan are to have the initiatory seal , as that they to whom he promiseth to be god. . that which is said gen. . , , . is onely of circumcision . . if it were granted that the covenant is the groundwork of the command it self , as of circumcision so of baptism , yet it follows not , much more of the application of either to any in covenant . for though the covenant were gods reason , why he would appoint circumcision , yet that 's no rule to us , but his command onely ; a reason of the will of the commander is not always a direction about the command , certainly not about each point in the command , as mat. . . it follows not , all power is given to me , therefore preach and baptize all over whom power is given to me . besides , in this very thing the covenant could be no direction whom to circumcise , ordinarily , sith ordinarily the circumciser could not know to whom in particular the promises , whether evangelical , or domestical , did belong , when they were to circumcise them . yea , though abraham knew ishmael had no covenant interest ▪ there being no promise made to him in it , but the contrary declared , gen . , , . yet he was to circumcise him and did so . the like may be said of esau and others . mr. c. adds . so the gospel prophesie and promise is prefaced and put in the preamble to that injunction of their baptism , by john , luk. . , , , , &c. answ. it is true that the prophesie of john baptists comming and work , and of christs comming , isa. . , , . ( which i acknowledge to be a gospel promise ) are set down as the warrant of johns preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins ; but this doth no● prove that this was his rule in baptizing , to baptize every one , even infants , and those onely who had this interest in the covenant of grace , that to them and each of them god promised remission of sins . yea , sith johns baptism is termed the baptism of repentance , it is clear he required repentance of the baptized as the antecedent to his baptism , and therefore not barely such covenant interest as mr. c. ascribes to all infants of believers onely in profession . he goes on thus . hence the gospel , and so the covenant of grace , held out as grounding baptism , act. . , . and childrens covenant right , was held out as one branch of that gospel , as we proved ; and from the same principle , that they were also to be sealed by baptism ; yea , albeit the apostles urged repentance , yet the seal is propounded as to the promise ; peter said , be baptized , for the promise is to you : and this was no meer moral motive , but a scriptural groundword inforcing it , as it was a scriptural groundwork virtually injoyning and requiring them to repent , for the promise is to you . answ. [ hence ] should , if there were any good sence in mr. cs. speech , refer to something precedent , from whence that which he speaks is derived , which i discern not , but a dark way of dictating , fitting such as love to puzzle , not to inform a reader . it is before largely shewed , that neither childrens covenant right external from parents faith hath been held out by mr. c. as one branch of the gospel , sect . . of this part of my review , nor that barely from this principle they were to be baptized ; but that repentance in each person to be baptized is made the antecedent to baptism , sect . , , and elsewhere . that peter said not as mr. c. sets down his words , is apparent from the text act. . , . that the promise is urged as a motive to those to whom peter spake to do their duty of repenting , and being baptized , is so plain , as that dr. thamas goodwin upon the reading the first part of my review , sect . . did acknowledge it , and it is proved so sect . . here and elsewhere : nor doth mr. c. here or elsewhere shew it to be any other scripture groundwork then as a motive to the baptized each of them first to repent , and then to be baptized , no rule by which the baptizer is to administer it , or the baptized to claim it as his right without his personal repentance , and declaration of his faith in christ into whose name he is to be baptized . he adds . so act. . peter saith , there is no let to their baptism ; and thereof he maketh the visibility of that covenant grace , although common to reprobates also in those first times , his groundwork ; gathering thereby , that they were not as formerly prophane , unclean , and outlaries from the covenant , as ephes. . , . but clean and nigh as they themselves were . ans. it is true there was no let to cornelius his baptism , and those other who were with him , yet not meerly because of their extraordinary gifts , but because those gifts were manifested by their glorifying god , and as may be gathered from act. . , . their glorifying god contained expressions of faith in christ and repentance , which whosoever should do as they did , it is without doubt they should be baptized . but mr. cs. covenant interest of infants , who make no shews of faith and repentance as they did act. . . yeelds no warrant for their baptism . he goes on , washing of regeneration is not grounded on any thing in us or without us , so much as on gods grace , and so covenant favour , tit. . . answ. it is true , this is the inward impulsive cause why god regenerates ; but gods grace , and covenant favour is no rule to a minister to baptize by , sith it is an unknown thing , which agrees not with the property of a rule . hence also ( saith mr. c. ) by baptism persons are not sealed into any thing in them so much as into the name of the father , son , and spirit , even into the covenant name of grace , whereby he is known , and into covenant fellowship with the blessed trinity , to which every baptized person , prove he elect or reprobate , yet is thus externally sealed . answ. the terming of baptizing sealing , and the name of the father , son , and spirit , the covenant name of grace , are mr. cs. new-minted phrases ; if this be his meaning , that every person rightly baptized , whether he be elect or reprobate , is sealed by god , that is in baptism assured of fellowship with the trinity according to the new covenant of gospel grace , i deny it ; if onely that he professeth his communion to be with them , i grant it ; but this proves not that covenant interest of infants , who make no such profession , intitles them to baptism . again , saith he , that fellowship with christ , as head of the visible church by the spirit in the judgement of verity or charity such ; it is all but covenant grace and blessing . answ. be it so : yet what this is to prove such fellowship to be a rule to baptize infants , i see not . of old ( saith mr. c. ) the consequent cause of the seal was grace in them and theirs ; but the antecedent cause was gods covenant grace to them and on them , gen. . , , . & deut. . . and so now , that part of abrahams covenant was not then appliable to infants , scil . walk before me , &c. but yet that was then appliable ; i will be their god , i will circumcise their hearts , and that sufficed them , as deut. . the analogy holds now . answ. what may be said to be a consequent cause , i do not yet conceive , the rule of logick i have learned is , that the cause is before the effect : yet what ever it be mr. c. means , though it might suffice for circumcision , it doth not for baptism ; nor is that to be regulated by analogy of circumcision , as is shewed in the second part of this review , sect . , . yet again , in a word , the seal is a seal not of nor to the commandment , but covenant ; this therefore is the main and principal in the application of it . answ. if baptism be a seal , it seems to me not a seal of or to the commandment or covenant , but the profession of the baptized ; and therefore this is the main and principal in the application of it . yet more , it is the covenant which hath the main instrumental force , in the fruit of the initiatory seal and the application of it , ephes. . . . and why shall not the external interest in the covenant , have chief influence into the external interest , as well of the application of the initiatory seal ? answ. i understand not what fruit of the initiatory seal he means , nor what is the external interest in the covenant ; the word , ephes. . . . is meant of the word preached , which is not instrumental to infants for any santification or cleansing their meant . the want of gods appointment is the reason of not applying baptism to infants . once more , by external interest in the covenant , persons so interested come to have external interest , at least to the final causes of baptism , as covenant mercy and blessing , the spirit , christ resurrection , &c. tit. , . and . cor , . , . . pet. . . and therefore as well so farre inrighted in the initiatory seal of it , whether they are adult or infants . answ. . external interest in the covenant , external interest in the final causes of baptism , are notions i understand not . . covenant mercy and blessing , the spirit , christs resurrection , are not final cause of baptism , for then when the end of baptism is attained , they should be effects of baptism , for the end in intention , is the effect in execution ; but this is too absurd . . an inrighting so far in the initiatory seal , which intimates a man may have an inrighting so far to such a measure and no further , is another new notion i understand not . . if mr. cs. antecedent had sense or truth , yet the consequence is to be denied , no other interest external is inrighting to baptism , but that which is according to the institution , matth. . . discipleship , or profession of faith . to the th . sect. i answer by denying that the covenant priviledge of grace evangelical , hath such distinction of principal and less principal counter parties , as mr. means c. ( unless he understand by christ the principal , and the elect and true believers the less principal , as gal. . . ) and that the covenant priviledges of grace evangelical belong to any other then the elect : yet i grant the covenant gen. . and many priviledges of divine grace which were not evangelical , did belong to many of the israelites , who made no good use thereof . the covenant evangelical was never sealed personally to ishmael . that which mr. c. dictates without proof about the everlasting covenant , and the initial seal in its generical nature , is answered here sect . . and the point about the ordinance of infants visible churchmembership unrepealed sect . , &c. and the non-inclusion of infants matth. . . under the term nation is shewed there , and in the second part of this review sect . . the position of mr. cs. sect . . may be granted , though acts . , . make nothing for it . sect. . mr. c. proves nothing but that parents were to take care that their children were circumcised ; that which he saith of the children begotten on prohibited women , ezra . . and timothy begotten on a jewish woman by a grecian husband , that they were circumcised , act. . , , . proves this , that the children , who were not of the congregation of israel , and so no visible churchmembers were to be circumcised , nor had covenant interest . the case controverted cor. . . was onely concerning the persons unequally yoked , not concerning their children . acts . , . is not a word to prove parents are to take care of the infants baptism , nor gen. . . with pet. . . there being not an infant in the ark , nor typical baptism being a rule concerning formal baptism of christians ; if it were , masters must take care to baptize their house , yea their married children though as prophane as cham , and their wives with them . how impertinently cor. . . is alledged , is shewed in the second part of this review sect . . what mr. c. observes out of exod. . , , . that a stranger was not to eate the passeover , except all his males were circumcised ; if it be right , yet it makes nothing for proof of parents duty to see their infants baptized , there being no such institution about baptism and the lords supper , as was about circumcision and the passeover . it is granted that the words [ exod. . . ] will keep the passeover to the lord ] are meant onely of an adult person , yet it is true also , which i say in my examen part . . sect . . that males not come to years of discretion fit to receive the lords supper were to eat the passeover , and consequently ( if mr. cs. dictates were of any of any validity ) parents should see they eate lords supper . i grant , that god made abraham gen. . . a common person as well in reference to us inchurched gentiles , as to the inchurched jewes and proselytes in point of evangelical covenant interest , but that hee should be so made in point of ingagement from covenant interest , unto the receiving of the initiatory seal by parents and children , gen. . , , , , . is but mr. cs. fancy sufficiently refuted by this , that if it were true , then we gentiles are bound to circumcise our infants , ( which is the onely initiatory seal there meant ) contrary to acts . . gal. . , . that which is true of abraham and his natural seed , must be applied to abrahams spiritual seed , true believers of the gentiles and their natural seed ; is but mr. cs. vain dream dictated without proof . my grant in my examen part . . sect . . pag. . ( as the words shew ) was not that children might be baptized vertually in their parents in exact speech , so as to receive it in their own persons , but onely in that sense in which mr. m. said women were circumcised vertually in the males , yet so as they might not be circumcised in their own persons : which being considered , my words yeild mr. c. no advantage . to the th . section i grant , that matth. . . ties not the baptizer to know the baptized to be internally and savingly interested in the covenant : but that it sufficeth , that that sort or species of infants , scil . such like infants are in deed and truth of christs kingdome , i utterly deny . for then any infant in the world might be baptized , because he is of that sort or species of infants , scil . such like infants are in deed and truth of christs kingdome . dare any say of no unbelievers infants is christs kingdome ? however it is true of belivers though not inchurched , and yet mr. c. denies the right of the child , if the parent be not inchurched . mr. cs. reason are vain , neither is our lord christs saying , luk. . . any rule to us about baptizing ; nor was the rule of circumcising infants that some of that sort had the internal saving interest and efficacy of this promise , i will be the god of thy seed , but the command of god , without which it is better to exclude all infants , then upon our own heads to bring on our selves the guilt of will-worship by taking them in . which must of necessity fall on infant baptizers after mr. cs. rule . for christs appointment was to baptize infants no otherwise then persons of years . there is no difference in the words matth , . . between the reason of baptizing one and the other . but persons of years were not to be baptized by mr. cs. rule , in that they are of that sort or species of persons , scil . such like persons are in deed and in truth of christs kingdome , but onely upon their own discipleship or profession of faith , as the practise thoroughout the acts of the apostles shews : therefore neither are believers children to bee baptized after any other rule . and yet infants are no more left in the wide wilderness , or any whit less folded up in the church by their non-baptizing , then they are by their baptism . if they of n. e. do fold them up in the church , why do they keep them from church-communion till they bee made members by church-covenant ? if it be better who happily have not so peculiar a title thereto , be folded up in the church , then that one of such lambs be left out in the wide wilderness , are not they guilty of too much strictness in leaving out of the church in the wide wilderness , many weak lambs who are weak in faith , because they do not satisfie the church in the declaration of their experiences ? but this is the guise of men who are strict in their own inventions , as in church-covenant , declaration of experiences for admission to church-communion , &c. to bee loose about gods commands , as this of baptizing disciples of christ is . enough in answer to these cloudy dictates of mr. c. sect . lxxxvi . the th . and th . chapters of mr. rutherfords first part of the covenant , are examined ; and found to make nothing for infant baptism . after the finishing the most of this part of the review , my learned and godly brother mr. john skynner of weston in herefordshire ( who hath written a solid treatise against infant baptism , entituled , corruption corrected , in answer to one mr. woodward ) acquainted me that mr. rutherford had written for infant baptism in a book of his of the covenant of grace part . . chap. , which having read , i found ( as he foretold me no more strength then others had brought for it , and it is written rather like a sermon then a scholastique dispute , and with so many unproved dictates , such a number of obscure expressions , ( many of which i cannot discern good sense in , so that they have need rather of construction then resur●tion ) so many incoherencies and inconsequences , as that i do not jhdge it worth while to answer him . yet because of the name of the man , and my words sect . . of the d . part of this review , i shall add some animadversions on those two chapters . ch. . he tels us , that 〈◊〉 are in covenant with god externally by visible profession , which i 〈◊〉 , if meant of their own personal profession ; but deny , . that th●● promise gen. . . i will bee thy god and the god of thy seed , is a tacit and implicit profession , or makes ( of it self ) parties in covenant externally . . that infants born of covenanted parents are in covenant with god , because they are born of such parents as are in covenant with god , gen. . . what is said deut. . . deut. . . is meant onely of the people of israel , as the very words [ brought out of egypt as it is this day ] shew ; nor is there a word in those verses , of their being in covenant with god because born of such parents , but of gods special choise of that people . it is false which he saith that the apostle acts . . speaks in the very terms and words of the covenant , gen. . . it is true rather , that hee speaks in never a term or word there used . it is as false that the apostle commanded any other to be baptized acts . . then whom he commanded to repent . did he not presume that anabaptists , as hee terms us , were very blockheads , hee would not not presume , that wee should believe his vain dictates , when the very copulative term shews the same are spoken to in one and the other command , and the words being an answer to the question v. . shew they are directed to those who spake v. . and the word [ you ] used in the precept of baptizing contains the same with those who were to receive remission of sins , and the gift of the holy ghost , and are distinct from their children , v. . and therefore cannot be meant of their children , much less of their infant children , whom it had been ridiculous for peter to have commanded to be baptized . how pertinent the answer had been as i expounded it , is often shewed before ; though their children crucified not the lord jesus , nor were concerned either in the evil of their parents , who crucified the lord of glory , nor in the good of their repentance more then stones ; yet i know no anabaptists whose grounds infer , that the jews children who crucified christ were not visibly in covenant with their parents , not capable of actual hearing the word , mourning for and repenting of their sins , as zach. . . matth. . , , . nor concerned either in the evil of their parents , nor in the good of their repentance more then stones ; nor do i conceive it true that the opposites of infant baptism say , that covenant promises are no more made to children , then to stones ; but that these are vile calumnies of mr. rutherford , unfit for such a man as he is taken to be . how isa. . , . & . , . psal. . . revel . . . isa. . , , , . mal. . . psal. . , . & . , , , . are to be understood of persons adult onely , and yet infants not cut off from the covenant , is shewed review part . . sect . . and elsewhere . it is not contrary to acts . . to say , that covenant promises are not to the children of believers , and yet it hath been fulfilled , that the gentiles and heathen are become the lords people . what he saith out of exod. . . psal. , . & . . deut. ▪ is answered here sect . . , . it is not true that paul , rom. . . saith the same of the jews root and branches , fathers and children , which he saith cor. . . of the unbelieving yoke fellowes sanctification in the yoke fellow , and their childrens holiness . nor is it true , that the same covenant which was made with abraham , gen. . . was made with the corinthians , cor. . . or any of the texts he cites , there being none of them that promise , that god would bee a god to them and their seed . his allegations from heb. . . heb. . , , , , , , . are shewed to bee frivolous here , sect . . and elsewhere . what he talks of a father having no warrant to offer the covenant of grace to one pagan more then another , if children be not in covenant , is vain , the offer of the covenant of grace being nothing else but the preaching of the gospel , which is to be to all , mark . . whether in covenant or no. the allegation that the promise gen. . . is made onely to the elect , rom. . . is a plain proof of this position , that the natural children of abraham , and consequently believers children now , except elected , have not that promise made to them , and therefore are not in covenant by gods act of promise to them , which doctrine mr. rutherford himself taught in his apologetical . exercit . . c. . p. . when he said ; the elect alone are said in scriptures federate , sons and heirs of promise , rom. . . and to christ alone the prince , and leading heir , are the promises made , gal. . . psal. . , . in him , to his seed and children given to him of the father , heb. . . nor can he here deny , that the sons of the promise are the chosen of god , in whom the word takes effect . which if true , then it is most false , that a believers seed not chosen is in covenant with god , by vertue of that promise gen. . . and his allegation of it , and acts . ● . and other places for baptism of believers infants , whether elect or not , as having that promise made by god to them ; is manifestly impertinent . nevertheless we need not say , that there are none covenanted with god but the chosen under the new testament , or that there is no such thing as an external visible covenanting with god under the new testament : but say , that no infant doth visibly externally covenant with god , so as thereby to be entitled to baptism , sith no persons are to bee baptized by christs appointment , but such as in their own persons do profess the saith . the priviledges mentioned rom. . , . & . . mr. rutherford himself appropriates to the jews , due right of presbyteries ch . . sect . . pag. . what he saith pag. , , , . is all answered before , chiefly in answer to mr. blake , review par . . sect . , or here , sect . , , . or in answer to mr. baxter and mr. marshal . and if it were not , yet the reader may discern its impertinency , sith the thing hee endeavours to prove , is an external visible covenanting in the new testament ( which can be onely on mans part ) and being in covenant thereupon , and right to baptism , and is not denied , whereas his position he should prove is , that the covenant choise on gods part is extended to the seed of believers as such in the new testament , p. . his words pag. . they cannot be baptized but as in covenant with god , are true , if meant of being in covenant by their profession externally : but so infants are excluded ; if of gods covenanting or promise , are false , and so are those other words , we are the same way in covenant as the jews were , and our visible church now , and the visible church then are of the same constitution ▪ i call not the covenant gen. . civil , but mixt , containing some promises civil , some spiritual , or rather the same promis●s , in one sense spiritual , in another civil . i doubt not to say the covenant to adam and the jews at mount sinai were two covenants of works , a third in the gospel i know not . the covenant with david , psal. . sam. . so far as it was evangelical , was the same with that to abraham , gen. . and adam gen. . . as they were evangelical , but so far as it was oeconomical , it was different from both , and another covenant then those to adam , abraham , or the jews at mount sinai : the promise of working miracles , was not the evangelical covenant of grace , but that of remission of sins and eternal life to the repenting believers , under which was john baptist as well as the apostles , was it : yet i know no absurdity to say , the apostles were both under the covenant of grace with john baptist , and another covenant mark . , . different from that john baptist and many believers were under . i find no promise of the blessings of their land , as gen. . is to abrahams seed of canaan , to all believers in any of those texts , ezek. . , , , . jer. . . compared with , , , , , . matth. . . luke . . tim. . . heb. . . . infants elect are in the same covenant evangelical with abraham , shall have a covenant resurrection and salvation , by christ , yet not in the visible church , but are saved without it . it is no new testament ordinance that ministers preach the gospel to every creature , without limitation , or explication restrictive to the intelligent of them , or baptize all nations simply , whether disciples , or believers , or not , but the disciples or believers in christ of all nations . that faith doth not sanctifie in every subject , but in subjecto capaci , and so not an unbelieving whore , cor. . . proves , that the sanctifying or holiness there , is not ascribed to the faith of the one parent , as to the formal reason , but to the conjugal relation , contrary to paedobaptists exposition of federal holiness , cor. . . which mr. baxter hath neither solidly nor learnedly vindicated , as might have been discerned by reading the first part of this review sect . , &c. which if mr. rutherford read with the rest , it 's likely ●e would no● say so unadvisedly as he do●h , that the dispute is at an end now . if god made the covenant gen. . . to abraham not as a father onely but as head of a family , and covenant holiness is of societie● and houses under the new testament as in abrahams house , then should infidels infants , yea infidels in a believers house be baptized by paedobaptists rules ; then is it no priviledge to believers and their seed , then doth the apostle after paedobaptists exposition of cor. . . say false , that the children were unclean , that is , without federal holiness ▪ if neither parent were a believer . most false is that which he saith without colour of proof pag. . not any are baptized in the new testament ( except the eunuch and saul acts . . ) who were baptized firstly , but they were baptized as publike men representing a seed ; the contrary appears from luk. . . joh. . . nor is it true , that societies as such , were baptized , nor any such thing intimated in the words , matth. . . mar. . . lu. . . but onely that a great number of people came to him and were baptized . yea in those places , as also joh. . , , . it is plain none were baptized , but such as came to hear john , and by confessing their sins shewed their repentance . no more needs be said to the stale frivolous allegations of baptizing housholds , then is said examen part . . sect . . review part . . sect . . nor to rom. . , . then in the first part of the review sect . , &c. the lord sends the gospel arbi●rarily to a city , houshold , or single person , as to the eunuch , paul , sergius paulus , as he pleaseth , and wee are to enquire whether the faith of the person be real , afore he is to be bap●ized , though the gospel be come to the nation , house , or society . nor is there any truth in it , no not according to the apostles doctrine , as cor. . . is expounded by paedobaptists , and they dispute from gen. . . if the friend , not a father , be in the house or society and profess the gospel , hee and his servants and friends obtain right to baptism . mr. rutherford pag. . enquires , what is the formal reason and ground that any hath right to baptism ? the terme● of the question seem to me to intimate , as if he with other paedobaptists , took baptism onely for a priviledge d●rived from a grant or covenant of god , which i take to be onely a duty both in the baptized and baptizer , by reason of a command of christ ( though there be also a priviledge consequent upon it ) and so the formal reason of it is the command , and the qualification which the baptized is to have , when hee is baptized , is believing with all his heart ; which if he wants he sins , yet not so as that the person , if after a dogmatical faith he become a sincere believer , is to b●e baptized again , but to repent of his former sin , as peter advised simon magus . the qualification , which the baptizer is to baptize upon , is a sober , intelligent , serious and free profession of faith in christ , upon which persons are termed disciples of christ and believers , and is the rule to the baptizer , matth. . . compared with mar. . , . which warrants his action , he being not able to look into the heart . mr. rutherfords objection from mar. . . is answered review part . sect . . p. . it is false , that none are to be baptized , but covenanted ones ; as acts . . meaning by gods promise , his promise of remission of sins and salvation to them by christ , nor doth acts . . prove it . if all infant ▪ even of pagans , and all aged are not to be baptized ▪ how is it true , that all nations are to be baptized without any other circumscription , as mr. rutherford cites the command matth. . . here pag. ? i like his words . all in covenant are not to be baptized . for such as are onely really and invisibly in covenant , and do make no profession of christ at all , are not warrantably by the church to be baptized . onely these whether old or young that are tali modo visibili federati ▪ such as professedly and visibly in covenant and called , acts . . are warrantably baptized ▪ hence they must be so in covenant , as they be called by the word of the covenant ; for they cannot be baptized against their will , luk. . , . which if mr. rutherford will stand to , the controversie may be ended ; and i promise him , that if he can prove , or shew that infants make any profession of christ , are professedly and visibly in covenant , are so in covenant , as that they be called by the word of the covenant , and that they are willing to be baptized , i shall yeild to baptize them . but this is frequent with paedobaptists ( as i have oft shewed in mr. m. mr. b. and mr. bl. ) to let fall such passages , especially in opening the institution , matth. . . in opposing papists , prelatists , antibaptists , as overthrow their disputes for infant baptism , and therefore they will not stand to them , when they are urged against them , but by some shift elude them . it is false which mr. rutherford saith , that this proposition , those to whom the promise of the covenant does belong , these should be baptized ( if universally understood ) is peters acts . , . or that this assumption , the promise of the covenant is to you and your children , is the express words of peter . the offer of christ in the preached gospel , is not the call , meant acts . ● . nor are all such as to whom the offer is made exter●ally in covenant , and such to whom the covenant is made and should be baptized ; though i grant , if they give a professed consent to the call of the gospel , they are bap●izable . calvins words are no proof , against those who yeild not what he saith of the anabaptists of his time . mr rutherfords words are too vain for a man of his name , which say , that believing children are not children , but men of age . my exposition of acts . . neither excludes sucking children , nor is the inclusion proved by him from matth. . ● . cor. . . the sense mr. rutherford makes the onely sense of acts . . the promise and word of the covenant is preached to you and your children in you , is false , for then it had been true , that it was preached then to all afar off , which is manifestly false , and vain ; for it had been no comfort to them , sith it might bee preached without their benefit , nor is this to be externally in covenant ( except in mr. rutherfords gibberish ) both under the old and new testament . in the o●d persons were so by birth , without preaching ; in the new , they onely who profess faith . the other sense mr. rutherford sets down is none of mine , nor is it needful i should answer the objections against it and the terms , the lord hath internally covenanted with you ; i take to be non-sense , no covenanting with us being an immanent , but a transeunt act . my sense is fully set down here sect. , &c. and proved . i grant no more covenant favour holden forth to their children , acts . . then to the pagans children , except in priority of tender . i make not external covenant holiness , ceremonial holiness out of da●e , nor can he cleer it , or that by any thing i say , the words acts . . must be in a contradictory way expounded , to wit , the promise is no more made to your children so long as they are infants , then to devils ; which seeing hee mentions mr. ms. words but a little before , i have reason to conceive reflect on my self ; and if so , they have too great a shew of diabolism . right to hear the preached gospel , and a covenant or gospel warrant peculiar to believers children , is such talk as i understand not . i think hearing is a duty obliging all ; pagans have not onely warrant , but also command to hear it , it is not onely lawfull but necessary . the children of the most holy christian gentile believers , are not christians till they believe , and both they and their parents when they believe are still heathens ; the term heathens , being all one with gentiles contradistinct to jews , and so used here by mr. rutherford himself pag. . in words before cited , and i sometimes admire that some learned men should suggest this to readers and hearers as a h●inous thing to term them heathens , when they must be so , if they be not jews , though most holy christians . the term pagans , if it bee all one with professed infidels positively , i grant it belongs not to our children ; yet they are infidels negatively , till they believe , and are so accounted of them that admit them not to the lords supper , as well as of those that admit them not to baptism , unto which actual profession of faith is as well required as to the lords supper . to neither hath a man any right by covenant , although by the covenant he hath right to the benefits of the gospel . baptism and the lords supper are neither of them formally benefi●s , or seals of the covenant of grace ; though by con●equent , in the right use of them , such benefit● accrue to men by them . they are hoth rites appointed by christ , the one to be the baptized his signe , whereby he professeth repentance and faith in christ , and engageth himself solemnly to adhere to christ as his disciple , the other whereby he● signifies his remembrance of christs death , both our duties , and a right to duty , sounds to mee like non-sense . i know no anabaptist that ignorantly confounds the promise and the thing promised , the covenant and benefits covenanted ; but this i aver , that when god promiseth and covenanteth they are connex , there is no man to whom cod promiseth or covenanteth , but he hath or shall have the thing promised or covenanted . and this i learn from the apostle rom. . . who makes onely the chosen sons of promise , as mr. rutherford here pag. . expounds him ; and that is , as gal. . . he expresseth himself , to abraham and his seed were the promises made or said , that is christ personal or mystical , or both , and to no other . and sure the apostle rom. . . did think it blasphemy to say , that god had promised , and those he promised to should not have the thing promised ; for then gods word should fall , and he be a liar . if gods conditional promise be a covenant ▪ yet it is made onely to them that perform the condition . he that believeth and is baptized shall bee saved , is not an universal promise to all men , whether believers or not ; but onely to so many as shall believe . 't is true we can exclude none , because we cannot exempt any from believing , and therefore we are to make an indifferent offer to any , but god in his intention excludes many , and his promise is not made to them whom he excludes , nor are they under his covenant , or in covenant with him , in respect of his act of promising ; though they may be said to bee in covenant , or under the covenant in respect of their own act of promising ; i grant the command is to persons whether they believe or not , obey or not , for that is not an enunciative speech , that signifies any thing true or false , but is in the imperative mood , and extendeth to all men whatsoever , so as whosoever doth not as the command bids , sins : but when mr. rutherford saith , the promise is to you , and so are the commands and threatnings , whether ye believe or not ; whether ye transgress or transgress not : ( if an anabaptist falsly so called may have the boldness to tell a professour in divinity in an university in scotland of ignorance ) i should tell him , he is mistaken , in saying , the promise is to you whether you believe or no , the threatning is to you whether you transgress or no. for they being enunciations in the indicative mood , if meant so , should bee false ; which to impute to god , would asperse him with falshood and injustice , which is horrendum dictu . and in my apprehension it savours of ignorance which mr. rutherford saith pag. . nor is it true , that the promise is made to the aged upon condition of believing . the promise is made to them absolutely , whether they believe or not . but the blessing of the promise and covenant of grace is given and bestowed onely conditionally if they believe . the promise is absolutely made , it 's called conditional from the thing corditionally given . for either i have lost my wits , or else a conditional promise is a conditional p●oposition , expressing something that shall be , if some other thing bee put ; and sure a conditional proposition is so termed from the words , not from the event . a promise is a promise absolute or conditional , as soon as the words are spoken , long before the thing promised is given , yea though it be never given . the giving or not giving upon performing or not performing the condition , may make the promise true or false determinately , but not conditional or absolute . i forbear to uncover any further mr. rutherfurds nakedness in this speech , and reset him to mr. baxter to correct him for that speech ; nor is it true , that the promise is not made to the aged upon condition of believing . and as for his speeches , of the saving of infants of believing parents dying in infancy , and our giving evidence thereof , there is so much said before of it , especially against mr. baxter sect. , . and elsewhere , that i need say no more here . as for what he saith , of our want of warrant to pray for them without their being in covenant ; though it hurt not me , who grant of so many as are elect that they are in covenant ; yet i think i have a warrant to pray by a general command , tim. . , , . and in faith by a general promise , matth. . , . the knowledge of gods goodness , and the goodness of the thing asked . in the rest of the chapter , mr. rutherfurd endeavours to find a way , according to which infants of believers may be said to bee within covenant , and the words acts . . meant of them , and their title to baptism thence inferred : for which end hee useth many words with distinctions , which are vain , without good sense , or good consistency , or any thing to his purpose . four ways he conceives infants of believers may be said to be in covenant . . in that god maketh the promise of a new heart to them ; but this he grants is true onely of the elect ; and not of all commanded to be baptized , acts . , . and pag. . he granted persons invisibly in covenant without profession , are not warrantably to be baptized . . in that god promiseth forgiveness of sins , and eternal life upon condition of repentance and faith . thus infants may be in the covenant of grace , but no otherwise then or rather not so much as professed unbelievers , to whom it is tendred , who yet are not to be baptized , and if the promise be meant so acts . . it proves not a right to baptism thence till the condition be performed , which when infants declare they do , i shall baptize them . . that they are in covenant because they are under the command , for thus he speaks pag. . the covenant must be considered in abstracto , and formally in the letter as a simple way of saving sinners , so they believe , so all within the visible church are in the covenant of grace , and so it contains onely the will of precept . in which he is mistaken , . in that he saith , the covenant formerly in the letter is a simple way of saving sinners , so they believe ; for such a speech is not the covenant in any sense , much less formally in the letter in abstracto : such a speech as this , men are saved if they believe , or the way of saving men is upon condition of believing , is not the covenant sith it is not a promise , but a covenant is formally a promise , or an aggregate of promises . . in that he saith , the covenant formally contains only the will of precept ; whereas the covenant formally contains not at all the will of precept , the will of precept containing onely the command of what should be done by another , but the covenant is a promise of what the covenanter will do ; the one is exprest in the imperative mood , the other in the indicative ; nor is the will of precept in the letter as a simple way of saving sinners , so they believe ; for such an expression is no command at all , but a declaration of event . . in that he saith , so all within the visible church are in the covenant of grace , which he seems to mean thus , they all and they onely . but sure either infants are not at all this way in the covenant of grace , who never hear the command propounded to them , or if they be , they are no more in it then the americans out of the visible church ▪ who never heard of christ , nor so much as professed unbelievers to whom the gospel hath been preached ; and therfore this way infants have not right to baptism ▪ so that this speech of mr. rutherfurd hath , as many of his expressions , nothing but ignorance and impertinency . . a person may be said to be in covenant , in that he is really covenanted and engaged by his consented profession , to fulfil the covenant ; as mr. rutherfurd speaks pag. . this way i grant intitles to baptism ; but sure infants are not so in covenant , nor is the meaning so acts . . where the promise is gods promise to us , not our promise to god ; nor is this the paedobaptists plea , when they argue infants are in covenant , therefore to be baptized ; for they mean by being in covenant , that god hath promised to be a god to them as the seed of believers , gen. . . and therefore mr. rutherfurd hath not yet shewed any way , according to which infants of believers are intitled to baptism , by vertue of the covenant of grace ; or from acts . , . notwithstanding all his blooding of it , to use his own term . let 's view what is in ch. . neither is it true , that god saith persons should be circumcised because of gods promise , gen. . . nor , that women were circumcised in the males ; nor was peter sent to baptize all the circumcised ; nor are infants to bee baptized by the ground of circumcision ; nor is there any thing acts . , . that saith , because the same promise is made to fathers and to children must infants bee baptised . neither do i know what mr. rutherfurd understands by theological essence , or formal effects ; nor do i conceive any truth or sense in mr. rutherfurds talk of circumcision and baptism being the same in the substance , nature , and theological essence , and in the formal effects ; much less that the lord hath any such argument , gen. . . and though i should grant all are to bee exhorted to be baptised , who are under the same covenant ; yet not without repentance and faith foregoing their baptism , wit●out which the promise warrants not baptism . there is no such command gen. . , . that all these in covenant should be marked with the initiatory seal ; nor is baptism instituted in place of circumci●●on ; and if it were , yet m●re is needful to warrant infant baptism . there is as plain precept acts . . & . , . mark. . . matth. . . against in●ant baptism , as is against infant communion cor. . . wee have good consequences out of the word against infant baptism , without arguing from the covenant of grace ; which mr. rutherfurd may see in the d . part of this review sect . and none against the holy ghost , but from him . that the promises of the covenant of grace are expresly to infants of the new testament is more then i find acts . . or elsewhere . dipping in rivers need not be onerous , and may be without danger , to women with child , virgins , some sorts of diseased persons in winter , in cold countries , and it will require more strength in dispute , then either mr. baillee , or mr. baxter , have shewed , or i finde yet in mr. rutherfurd ; to prove dipping in rivers ( though baptism be not necessary to be done in rivers ) to be against the word , the second , third , and fourth commandements . and against sprinkling , or perfusion instead of baptism , there is so much said in my addition to the apology against mr. baillee , mr. rutherfurds colleague , and delivered to mr. rutherfurd himself , and since printed with a letter to him , as is for ought i know , yet unanswered . all mr. rutherfurds talk pag. , . that now infants of believers are casten out , for no fault , of the covenant of grace , and his aggravations thereof , are to be taken for meer calumnies , and since the printing of my ex●men , there is reason to judge them to be thus wilfully vented by mr. rutherfurd , and till he name the anabaptists , and cite the place , i can take it for no other then a false accusation , which he saith of the anabaptists that they teach infants to be born without sin . mr. rutherfurd dictates without proof pag. . that they were covenanting parents and believers , that brought the little children mark . , that they were not diseased or possessed , that he would have the whole spece of infants at all time ●o come to him , and those infants might bee blessed as elect ones , though no marks were given to parents or others , whereby to discern elect children ; these being no direction for them to bring children to christ under that notion . it is false that anabaptists rebuke persons that bring children to christ as the disciples did , mar. . . or that christ instates infants of believing parents as members of the visible church . what mr. ●obbet hath said of that act of christ is refelled review part . . sect . . and that the kingdome of god is that of glory , is made good against mr. blake there , sect . and not refused by me : i know no absurdity in it , to say , christ might bless infants of pagans . what designe christ might have , or had , besides mr. rutherfurds conceived purpose to hold forth the common interest of the whole spece of infants within the visible church , is shewed there sect . . against mr. baxter . i do gran● the blessing , mark . . to be personal , and the chiefest blessing beyond visible churchmembership ; and though we finde not proof that christ blessed the whole race of infants of covenanting parents , yet it is false that we make them blessed onely as symboles of humility ; or that the blessing was some complemental salutation ; or that ( as mr r. saith of anab●ptists after hi● calumniating manner ) wee will have them without christ and the covenant , and under the curse of god ; but grant that they were blessed with the blessing of the covenant of grace , and that many other infants are so . whether they were parents , or believers in christ as the messiah , who brought the children , matth. . . is uncertain ; nor do i say , or need i , they had a saith grounded upon a possibility of election separated from the covenant ; nor do i deny , that infants have their share of salvation by the covenant ; or that a covenanted seed is prophesied to be added to the jews , under the new testament ; nor doth any thing i say infer , that the children of believers under the new testament must be a cursed seed ; yet there is none of the texts mr. rutherfurd brings , which proves a prediction , that the natural seed of believers as such , shall be blessed and in the covenant of grace , nor that their infant seed shall be visible churchmembers in the christian church : but they are all impertinently alledged , some being meant of the jews i●crease in jud●● after their return from babylon , some of the effectual calling of the gentiles ; and most of them so far cleared before , that i count it needless to make answer to each of the texts by themselves . and mr. rutherfurds discourse is so loose and full of impertinencies , and incoherencies , that i shall onely animadvert on some passages , till the whole bee brought to some distinct scholastique form . he tels us pag , . that external covenanting goes before internal covenanting , as the means before the end , and the cause before the effect : for faith comes by hearing of a sent pre●cher , rom. ● . . and the preaching of the gospel is a saving means of begetting a new heart , and of a new spirit . hence . all must be first externally in covenant , before they can be internally and really in covenant . in which speech he seem● to conceive external covenanting , to bee either preaching or hearing a preacher , else his reason had been vain . but what non-sense scribling is this , to term preaching or hearing covenanting ? a person may , and we may conceive some do , preach and hear , who never externally covenant . sure covenanting is promising , but so is not either preaching or hearing . and if mr. rutherfurds words be true , no infant can be internally and really in covenant , who doth not preach or hear . his talk is as vain , of the lord being a god simply to some , and no more but a god to them in regard of outward church-priviledges , but to others more then a god in truth and righteousness ; not to all , as if god might be a god to some not in truth and righteousness , or the being a god to his people , contained not the greatest blessings , contrary to lu. . , . heb. . . his further talk pag. . from matth. . . is without proof , and all shewed to be vain , in the places before cited . though the houshold sometimes comprehend infants , yet not so still , nor acts . as is shewed review part . . sect . . anabaptists neither do nor must grant , if infants be in covenant , they ought to receive the seal of the covenant . if rom. . . be meant of holiness onely intentionally , and not giving actual right to baptism , then the holiness there proves not infants to be baptizable . that the covenant deut. . , . should ●e made virtually radically with us gentiles , is a do●age with a witness : not onely the express words v. . but also the passages all along ch. , . shew it was the legal covenant renewed with the people of israel and their posterity , to engage them to observe all the law of god given by moses : not the covenant made to adam , abraham , david , the new , or better covenant . if the covenant may stand in one , then it is not necessary that a people , nation ▪ seed , body , should be in covenant , and consequently it may stand without infants . the apostle saith not rom. . . the fathers were the root . but mr. rutherfurd adds . hence anabaptists , without all reason , say that hee speaks not of federal and external holiness , but of real , internal , and true holiness , onely of the invisible body predestinated to life : for though invisible holiness cannot be excluded , except we exclude the holiness of abraham , isaac , and jacob , who were without doubt a part of the roo● . answ. anabaptists , if we must be so named , do say that the holiness rom. . . is meant of real , internal and true holiness ; and consequently the persons there said to be holy , are all of the invisible body predestinated to life , and no other but such there meant : yet they deny not , that the holiness of the covenant and church the●e meant were made visible by its working , the collective body of the jewes predestinate to life ; and that it is not said without all reason , might have appeared to mr. rutherfurd , if he had read my examen part . sect . . my apol. sect . . pag. . review part . . sect . , &c. part . . sect . . yea if there were nothing else said but what mr. rutherfurd here yeilds , that invisible holiness cannot be excluded , except we exclude the holiness of abraham , isaac , and jacob , who were withoue doubt part of the root , that which anabaptists say , is not said without reason , and that demonstrative . for if invisible holiness cannot be excluded , then it is included , and if included together with external visible holiness , then the holiness there meant is not external holiness alone ; nor they who have meerly external federal holiness are there said to be holy , and consequently no reprobate , but onely the predestinate to life . and if abraham , isaac and jacob , be part of the root , and therefore invisible holiness cannot bee excluded , then the rest of the root and the branches which are made in the text alike holy , must have invisible holiness also . but mr. rutherfurd ads . yet he must be taken to speak of that holiness of the covenant and church , as made visible , and of the visible collective body of the jews , not of onely real and invisible holiness . . because this was true in the days of elias , if the root be holy the branches are holy ; and it is a new testament-truth of perpetual verity , if the fathers be holy so must the sons . the fathers have church-right to circumcision , to baptism , to the passeover , and the lords supper , so have the children : but it is most false of the invisible mystical body and root onely , and of real and internal holiness ; for neither in old or new testament is it true , if the fathers be predestinated to life , justified , and sanctified , and saved , so must the children be . answ. the term [ holy , rom. . . ] notes onely real and invisible holiness in that place , though the persons said to bee holy have it made visible , and it agree to the visible collective body of the jewes . and the proposition of mr. rutherfurd to the contrary , if the fathers be holy so must the sons , is most false , not onely being understood of invisible , but also of visible holiness , of churchright to circumcision , to baptism , to the passeover , and the lords supp●r . though the father were holy visibly , by profession of the god of israel , yet had not hee nor his child right thereby to circumcision , and the passeover , without being a proselyte of righteousness , taking on him the precepts of moses to observe , and joyning to the policy of israel , and yet even then the child of age , who did not avouch the god of israel , had no right thereto . nor by paedobaptists own principles hath the child of age right to bap●ism , or the lords supper , without his own profession , though the parent● be christians ; nor the infant of a believer baptized ( as they conceive ) right to the lords supper . mr. rutherfurd is grosly mistaken in making every believing parent the root me●n● rom. . . and every natural child a branch : for then every believing parent should beare his child : v. . and every natural child shou●d derive holiness from his believing parent ; abrahams natur●l children at this day are not in the olive , nor shall be till re-ingraffed . abraham is the root , not as a natural father , but as father of believers , and ●one are branches or holy as the apostle there means , but through ●aith according to election . nor are hereby the distinctions of jew inward and outward , child of the flesh and promise taken away ; nor whole israel certainly saved . nor by the branches be meant all the visible body of the jews old and yong , which ●e mi●ht have imagined would be replied to hi● argument pag. . nor is it new divinity , but old , that none are to be baptized but such as are under actual exercise of their faith , which may be discerned , by their profession , in those that are come to age . it is neither my divinit● , nor follows ( though mr. rutherfurd c●nceives it doth ) on it , that predestination to life and glory , must bee pro●ogated and derived from the lump to the first fruits ( he meant from the first fruits to the lu●p ) from the root and parents to the branches and children ; but this i say , that faith , and righteousness are propagated and derived from ●braham as an exemplary root to all his spiritual branches or seed by conformation to him . i do not say , that the apostle rom. . speaks of an invisible body , but this i say , the apostle by branches means two sorts of people , the one jews , who were then broken off from the olive tree , which is the invisible church of the elect ; the other gentiles , then graffed in , yet not all the gentiles , nor one nation wholly and entirely , but a great part of them in comparison of what were formerly in the olive very numerous . how these branches were an elect seed and yet fell away , were preached to , had a national election and external calling , were in the room of the jewes , ●id partake of the fatness of the olive , is so fully opened in the places before cited , that i think it unnecessary to add here any more . onely whereas he makes it an absurdity , that the infants of baptized actual believers should be all heathen as well as the casten off the jewes ; it is to me and absurdity unfit for any learned man to vent , that knows that heathen in english is all one with gentiles and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to conceive otherwise , as if a jew because cast off were become a heathen , or any gentile believer or his infant , were or could bee by believing and baptism any other then an heathen , or a christian of the gentiles did not still continue a heathen notwithstanding his christianity . i do account mr. rutherfurd and my self christians , and yet heathens . there 's not a word in the text , that warrants us to say of the children of the ingraffed and called gentiles that they have right to baptism ; but what if the words be expounded as mr. rutherfurd does , of the whole visible body of the nations will allow the baptizing of infidels . abrahams children were never taken into covenant-fellowship universally . abraham was indeed a moral not a physical root , yet not as a believing father , nor as a believing head of children , of servants and strangers under him , but as father of believers after him . and in this respect , neither adam , nor any other then abraham is the root , and none of abrahams natural seed are branches or holy intentionally , but such as are elect , and shall be conformed to him in believing and justification . nor doth the apostle when he saith , the jews are beloved by reason of the fathers , make abraham , isaac , and jacob the root ; but intimate that god remembers them , because of his covenant made to them , his taking the title of their god , their obedience to him , their prayers , and his constancy to them as his ancient friends , when all the world were revolted . the conceit of mr. rutherfurd concerning holiness external federal , as if it were any cause or reason of re-ingraffing them or their infants , is so frivolous , that i wonder any sober man should once fancy it . for what is it but a state of outward church priviledges , right to the seals , &c but to imagine so great a work as the re-ingraffing , which infers salvation , should come from abrahams , isaac , and jacobs , or any other natural believing fathers visible churchmembership , circumcision , baptism , &c. is to derive title to heaven , from at best , an amissible priviledge , which may be interrupted by men . what more is to be seen in mr. cotton , blake , cobbet , baxter , mr. rutherfurd may see examined in this review ; by reading of which hee may discern , that they have neither closed the dispute ; nor managed it so , as that their learning is to be rested on . sect . lxxxvii . the distractions in germany and our present distractions , sprung not from anabaptism as mr. cragge saith . there having been a dispute a● abergavenny between me and mr. john cragge , sept. th . . and a sermon preached there ( wh●n i was gone thence ) the next lords day , in opposition to what i taught , instead of letting mee have a copy manuscript , they were printed with much injury to the truth and my person . where●ore having had experience in mr. bs. dealing , what advantage the errour of infant baptism got by such writings , i being then in london and meeting with the book , made a reply intituled , a plea for antipaedobaptists ; to which mr. john cragge hath returned an answer , and intituled it , the arraignment and conviction of anabaptism . he hath prefixed an epistle to eight ominent members of the parliament which ●ate anno . he tels them that the cause he defends is and ought to be dearer to them , then any private interests , as whereupon infallibly depends the peace of church and state. he might more truly have said , that infallibly the peace of church and state depends on the reforming of infant baptism , which hath corrupted the church and state by bringing into the christian societies a world of ignorant , loose and prophane persons , who being the major part in all churches , and commonwealths , where christianity hath been received , have persecuted the godly , domineered over the consciences and liberties of the saints , and upheld a proud and sensual clergy , to the infinite disturbance of the eastern and western churches for many ages . and though i hope better of the men to whom mr. cr. ascribes such heroick excellencies , that they have or will have more wit or more grace , then to account mr. crs. cause of infant baptism dearer to them then any private interests . yet i must confess i cannot but mourn , that not onely parliament men , but also ministers should be so ignorant , as to be taken with such silly in●●pid clamours ( i may truly say ) rather then arguings , as mr. cr. mr. b. and others , have mislead them by . that which he saith , the former sad disasters of germany and our present distractions , both took their spring and growth , in a great measure , from anabaptism , ●is most false . the disasters in germany which were in the years , . did spring from the great burthens and oppressions which were put on the rusticks by their princes , bishops , abbots . spondanus expresly in his auct . of his epit. of baron . annals ad annum . saith , that they began in suevia , by rising of the bores against their lord count lupfius , and that the beginning thence being risen , after an infinite number of rusticks being stirred up to seditions upon pretent of gospel liberty ( which spanheimius himself in his diatribe historica § . . refers to luthers book of christian liberty as the occasion taken by them ) committed great outrages . and ad annum . tels us , that in the diocess of spi●e , a conspiracy of husbandmen against the bishops and canons , which was called the rustick league , began from two rusticks : of which conspiracy the ch●ef article was that they should shake off every yo●e , and in imitation of the helvetians should recover their liberty . and lucas osiander epit. hist. eccles. cent . . l. . c. . p. . saith , these particular seditions in germany , were the praeludia or fo●e playes of that great sedition of rusticks , which was in its vigour in the year . and gnodalius in his history of the rustick tumults in germany in the year . lib. . sai●h , that in suevia , where they first began , they did openly signifie that they were not gospellers , nor did flow together for the gospel sake , but because of exactions . bp. jewel . def. of the apology of the church of england part . . chap. . divis. . to harding , saying , were the hundred thousand bores of germany consumed by the sword of the nobility there for their obecience ? answers thus , the bores of germany , of whom ye speak , for the greatest part , were adversaries unto doctour luther , and understood no part of the gospel : but conspired together , as they said , onely against the cruelty and tyranny of their lords : as they had done two and twenty years before in the same country , in the conspiracy called liga sotularia , fifteen years before doctour luther began to preach : the partners of which conspiracy had for their watchword the name of our lady , and in the honour of her , were bound to say five ave maries every day . certainly touching those later rebels , it is known that luther sharply and vehemently wrote against them . and they themselves being demanded thereof , utterly denied both the partaking , and also the knowledge of the gospel . it is true muncer was a busie man in thuringia , and stirred up the people disposed to tumults by reason of oppressions , and at munster in westphalia in the years , . were stirs and out-rages ; but even spanheimius himself sets down the beginning of them to have been upon the protestant reformation , by the preaching of rotmannus and others , afore the comming of john matthias , and john becold of leyden the bishop and canons of munster being papists opposing it . how in like manner the bishop of geneva was expelled when the protestants grew potent there , and the like was done in other places , is manifest by records extant , which acts have been repres●n●ed as alike odious with those of muncer , and at munster , and would h ave been so reputed if there had been the like success , i mean the adverse party had prevailed as they did in these . our present distractions cannot with any shew of truth be said to take their spring from anabap●ism , by any that know things from the relation of men im●loyed in publike negotiations , their being neither in the beginning nor now , either in the councel of state , or parliaments , or armies , or city of london , or universities , or countries ; any such persons or parties , as could sw●y things any further then to put some stop to the violence of the clergy against them , to which as the cause of them , though not the onely , the present distractions are to be referred : to whom how much in former ages , and at this present , the great troubles of the churches of god are to be ascribed , may be seen in part , in mr. baxters book intituled , the reformed pastour , ch . . sect . , . and in many histories . mr. cr. adds ; which reason with experience dictates ; for by their principles whole nations are unchurched and none received into communion , but by re-baptizing , all former members esteemed as publicans and heathens ; hence magistracy and ministry that dissents , are by them wholly disgusted , if not discarded . answ ... experience hath not proved either the disasters in germany or our present distractions , to have sprung from anabap●ism , but from other causes ; chiefly , the oppression of princes and prelates . . nor are mr. crs. reasons sufficient to evince anabaptism ▪ a cause of such troubles . for the first principle , that whole nations are unchurched , is as well the independent as paedobaptists principle ( among whom is mr. cradock counted a light in their goshen of monmouthshire , by the relatour of the dispute in the epistle dedicatory ) and if so , the present distractions are to be ascribed with as good reason to indepency as to anabaptism , and perhaps with greater ; it being considered that they have been and are the more potent party . as the papists imputed all the troubles to protestant principles of christian ●iber●y , the prelates to non conformists , whom it hi● gift long since compared with anabaptists , because they alledged ag●inst prelacy matth. , . so the presbyterians charge the like on independency , and perhaps independents on anabaptism ; yet none of their principles are indeed the spring of the troubles , but the violence of the leading men of each party , who by their mis-reports and clamors , stir up magistrates and people against their opposites , and will by no means allow liberty to them , nor willingly life : of which spirit mr. cr. seems by his writing to bee , and i suppose the state will discern all such as will not tolerate others , who dissent in religion , intolerable . . it is false that magistracy and ministry that dissents , is by anabaptists wholly disgusted , if not discarded . for though i cannot justifie all so called , there being violent spirits among them ( who are intolerable ) as well as o●hers : yet neither do all nor any great part that i know of , appear to be such . but if they did , yet sure it comes ●ot from those principles fore-named by mr. cr. there being no such consequ●nce included in those tenents , that they who are not churchme●bers are not to be accounted magistrates . as bp. andrews answered ▪ resp . ad bellarm apol. c. p. . bellarmine alledging the puritans did not admit the kings supremacy ▪ because they brought a parity into the church . to the kings supremacy what is parity among elders in the church ? videt ergo lector ludere hîc pa● , impar , cardinalem ; so may i say to mr cr. the baptists do not count whole nations to be churches of christ , and with them agree independents , as dr. owen of schism , ch , &c the baptists receive none into communion but the baptized , esteemed all other as not in the church visible ( though these two last are denied by many of them ) what is the non-admission into the church , to the disgusting or discarding of magistracy in the common-wealth ? the reader therefore sees mr. cr. to play here par impar , even and odd . what mr. cr. hath suffered for patronage of respect to tender consciences , i know not ; nor who are for promiscuous toleration without distinction . what he adds out of the old testam●●t of p●inces punishing idolatry and blasphemy , was done by special judicial laws of moses , which do not binde christian magistrates ; if they did it makes nothing for the punishing of errours of christians about the christian doctrine , by civil punishment . it is granted that ministers are bound to oppose errours by preaching , and ecclesiastical censures , both singly and in councils ; yet neither have councils , nor the learnedst doctours been very happy in determining of errours , and heresies . that which was heresi● in one council was orthodox in another ; under one emperor that was adjudged ●ruth , which was blasphemy under another . what strange kinds of heretiques were the quartodecimani , aerians , helvidians , and many more ? had vigilantius or jovinian ( saith mr. baxter in his reformed pastour p. ● . ) had hieromes name , some of their heresies might possibly have been articles of faith . nor was it well done ( however mr. cr. conceives ) that well-minded emperours did rely so much on the advise of synods and bishops , as to banish and destroy at the instance of them , such as they judged heretiques and schismatiques . the sad tragedies about the doctrines of the trinity , images , easter , &c. are a sufficient document to all wise rulers to bee cautelou● how they use their power for suppressing persons deemed erroneous in point of doctrine . there may bee toleration of different opinions in a commonwealth without mixture of religion , and that such toleration doth not dissolve the bond of obedience , or breed any of those evils mr. cr. reckons up ( except by accident ) the peaceable rule of the united provinces of belgia and elsewhere shews . it is the intemperate zeal of preachers and others against dissenters , which is the chief cause of such evils as mr. cr. reckons up . i remember that i have read , that the bores of germany were not subdued till . of them were slain , but sleidan reports not in his com. l. . or any other , that in germany the anabaptist grew so populous , that they could not be vanquished , till almost a hundred thousand of them were slain by the united forces of the empire . but the emperour objected to the protestants that their preachers were a great occasion of the rustical war , wherein an hundred thousand were slain . but whether it were so or not so ( what ever mr. crs. protestations be ) the writing this epistle , with some other passages at the time and to the persons to whom it was directed , shew what we are to expect from him and such as he is , if ever they have power over us . but of these things onely by the way . sect . lxxxviii . austins saying about apostolical traditions is not to be rested upon , nor his testimony about the antiquity of infant baptism . after his own epistle , and the epistle of i. t. p. and the reprinting of the conference between me and mr. vaughan , and the dispute between me and himself , mr. cr. leaving out the former epistle of i. t. p. begins with a descant on the title of my reply , which he vainly makes to imply a suit against the universal church , though it be onely an action against innovators , who have left the plain way of christ and his apostles , and ( as they have done in many other things ) brought in infant baptism , to the great corruption of the church of god : and for mr. halls inditement , it is such as is fit for boys onely to make sport with ; and were mr. hall or mr. cr. of such serious and grave spirits as they should be , they would have buried it in silence , or been humbled for handling things of god so lightly , such writings being fitter for light wits in the university , then for preachers and pastors over churches of christ. my calling mr. baxters book a cheat and mock titled book , is proved here to be right ; and that mr. ms. is no impregnable defence , is here shewed . the rest of mr. crs. light poetry in sect . . &c. par . . i let pass as the scum of his wit , and onely take notice , that he terms from stow sir john oldcastle a traitor , who was hanged on a gibbet and burned in st. gyles field , whom mr. fox in his book of martyrs in the time of henry the th . hath against alan cope vindicated , and by sundry arguments particularly by the manner of his death mentioned by mr. cr. made it probable , that he died a martyr oppressed by popish prelates . whose case is a good document how little credence is to be given to the censures of men , when the relations of them are made by their prevailing adversaries . what i think of laying on hands , may be seen part of this review , sect . . dr. featly was a man with whom i had sundry times conference when he was in his greatest esteem , but never found him such as i durst not look in the face when living , and sure his book of baptism is ( beside● what denn hath done ) shewed here and elsewhere not to be unanswerable . with what spirit mr. cr. and other paedobaptists , and my self , have written on this subject , must be left to the cognizance of our judge . if austins saying , l. . de bapt. contra donat. c. . that what the universal church holds ▪ nor was instituted in councels , but always retained , is most rightly believed to have been delivered by no other then apostolical authority , were meant as mr. cr. sect . . p. . expounds it , including the apostles , i should yeeld it . but . i do not conceive that to be austins meaning ; for . then the speech would be an inept tautology to say , that what the whole church including the apostles holds , is most rightly believed to have been delivered by no other then apostolical authority ; it were as if he had said , what the apostles held the apostles held : . the very speech shews that austin meant it of the universal church of his time , the word [ tenet ] being in the present tense , and the councels meant being such as were since the apostles , and that he counted that to be instituted in no councels , but to have been always held , of which he could not shew any beginning or any interruption : . elsewhere his speeches shew this was his mind , as epist. . ad joann . illa quae non scripta sed tradita custodimus , quae quidem toto terrarum orbe observantur dantur intelligi vel ab i●sis apostolis vel plenariis conciliis quorum est in ecclesi● saluberrima autoritas commendata atque statuta retineri , and he instanceth in the anniversary solemnities of good friday , easter day , holy thursday , and whitsunday , and adds ; and if any other thing hath occurred which is kept by the whole church where ever it spreads it self . and accordingly he makes the necessity of the communion to eternal life as of baptism to the kingdome to be from apostolical tradition , tom . . de pecc . mer. & remis . l. . c. . mr. crs. conceit is not right , as if the words , and if any man seek for divine authority in this thing , did intimate that his following rule was meant of what was held in the apostles time : for in them he means that which he after fetcheth from circumcision out of scripture , besides that which the whole church holds , not instituted in councels , yet still held . in this sense it is urged by canus , l. . loc . theol. c. . as a rule to know genuine unwritten traditions apostolical from spurious , and rejected by chamier , paustr. cath . tom . . l. . c. . § . . as impossible , sith what hath been in all ages and churches from the apostles cannot be known ; and it is urged by bellarm. de bonis oper . in part . l. . c. ● . for lent fast , and refuted by chamier , paustr. cath . tom . ● . l. c. . § . . . this rule cannot stand the epistler in any stead for proving infant baptism without the apostles writings , . because there is no way without them to know what was universally held , there being no man able to know what the church holds in all places in his own time , much less what in former ages was held ; and many things have been taken even by austin as universally observed which were not , and many councels held which are unknown , and many corruptions crept very early into the church whose original cannot be s●t down determinately , of which ushers general answer to the jesuites challenge ▪ gives reasons . . infant baptism cannot bee proved to have been universally observed , but as now it is taught and used hath been opposed by some of the ancients , and is now rejected by protestant divines , as it was by the ancients taught and used . nor is austins testi●ony se●m . de verb. apostoli ( not serm. . ) that the church always had and held infant baptism , valid for mr. crs. purpose ; . because the term [ hoc , this ] may bee rather referred to t●e doctrine of infants being born with original sin , rather then the practise of their baptism , and to this sen●e both t●e scope , words precedent , consequen● , and the terms , had , held , perceives from the faith of elders , keep to the end ( which are most fitl● appli●d to doctrine ) make more prob●ble , as i noted in my apology § . . pag. . . were the meaning of austin about infant baptism , yet there were no cause to rest on this testimony as credible , . because it is but a speech in a popular sermon , in which men speak not exactly as in other writings . . the words [ hoc ecclesia usque in finem perseveranter custodit ] could be known onely by guess and conjectural presage , it being of a contingent matter not by divine revelation fore-told , and therefore the other speeches ( as likewise other speeches , as that tom . . de pecc . mer. & remiss . l. . c. . shew was his wont ) are to bee conceived as spoken not out of any good records , but from that which he found observed in his time , where he had been . because serm . . de verbis apost . he saith , that cyprian epist. . ad fidum quid semper ecclesia sensit monstraverit ; though he onely set down what wa● determined in that council of carthage , which was in the third century . . there are so many speeches of the ancients false , uncertain , contradicting each other concerning apostolical traditions , universal observations , that many protestants have discredited them , of which some testimonies are set down by me in my p●aecursor sect . . salmasius appar . ad libr. de primatu p●pae , men●ions some other , as pag. . all the fathers with one accord make paul and peter founders of the roman church , and yet were deceived ; hierome saith , it was in all the world decreed , that one should be a bishop over others : and yet the preface of selden before twisdens collection of ancient british histories , shews it wa● otherwi●e in scotland of old . and for austin epist. . ad janu. c. , . hee makes the anniversary solemnities of easter , &c. of eating the lords supper fasting , as always universally observed , in which he was mistaken . mr. cr. doth abuse me in making my argument , as if i had said easter was always held , my words were ; if austins rule were true , then easter should be from the apostles ; not because i thought it true , but because austin thought so , and so by his rule easter must bee counted to come from the apostles , and his testimony is as good for it , as for the universal observation of in●ant baptism . . not onely protestants but papists also do now reject things observed by the ancients , as amply as infant baptism . jewel sermon at pauls cross , p. . usher answer to the jesuits challenge , p. . it was the use of the ancient church to minister the communion to infants : which is yet also practised by the christians in egypt and ethiopia . the church of rome , upon better consideration hath thought fit to do otherwise . the putting milk and honey into the mouth of th●●aptized , the standing at prayer on lords days between easter and whitsontide , the baptizing at easter persons catechised in lent , with many more are now left ; though bellarmin . l . de bonis operibus in particulari c. . tels us , abolitam esse consuetudinem baptizandi catechumenos & absolvendi p●nitentes in pascha●e verum est apud lutheranos : caeterùm apud catholicos , ac praesertim in urbe romana nullus est annus , quo non multi catichumeni in paschate baptizentur ; which i mention to shew , that there ar● some foot-steps yet remaining of the old baptizing . ●p . jewel de●ense of the apology of the church of england , part . . ch . div . . saith , there have been errours and great errours from the beginning : hee mentions there and in the sermon at pauls cross , baptizing for and of the dead , giving the communion to the dead body , and therefore there and in his reply to dr. cole , he rejects customs of the ancient church , and condemnes carrying home to the absent the communion ; mixing water with the wine , and many more things ; and still requires the lords supper and baptism to bee administred according to the institution of christ ; which if mr. cr. or any other can ever shew to have been of infant baptism , i will say as bp. jewel did concerning the . articles propounded at pauls cross , i am content to yeild and ●o subscribe : otherwise mr. cr. and other paedobaptist● by accusing mee as opposing the universal church in austins sense ( though i deny it to be true ) do but con●emn themselves , who with papists d● reject things counted by the writers of the 〈◊〉 a●es apostolical , and of universal observation near the apostles tim●s . nor is the 〈◊〉 pr●p●sition of mr. cr. p. . true , that the whole church 〈◊〉 the ●postles in all ages , collectively considered , cannot err either in do●●rine or discipl●ne . for if the wh●le church might err so in one age , it may also in all ●ges c●llectively considered , the promises being no more 〈◊〉 the church in all ages colle●●ively considered , then in each age distri●utively considered , nor an● means given to them after the apostles colle●●ively considered , to keep from errour , then to each , distributively ; yea the churches nearer the apostles , had more meanes to keep them from errour then other ages , yet they erred in doctrine and discip●ine , as many writers shew , about easter , the millenary opinion , an● many other . as for the promise matth. , . it is not true of the whole church visible , the gates of hell have and do prevail against them , but of the invisible , and yet the promise is not to the invisible that they shall not err , but that they shall not erre finally to damnation , which if they did , then indeed the gates of hell or of death should prevail against them , that is ( as cameron rightly in his pr●lection ) they should not rise to life eternal nor is there a promise joh . . to the wh●le church , but to the apostles , the promise being as well to shew them things to come , as to lead them into all truth : and yet the promise i● not so ma●e to the apostles ▪ but that they might err as peter did gal. . though when they taught the church by writing or preaching , they were so guided as that they should no● err . but of this point of the militant churches erring , i need say no more , but refer mr. cr. to his own author dr. rainold thesi . . were it granted that antiquity did universally p●actise infant baptism , yet nei●her were the present doctrine or practise justified by it , but condemned ; and mr. cr. as truly may be said to p●ea● against the universal church as my self . for it is manifest from the places wh●re there i● mention of it in the ancients , that they ●aught it and pra●●i●ed it , onely upon the opinion of the necessity of i● to save an infant from perishing , and because the very baptism did give grace , remission of original sin , made believers , heirs of the ●ingdome of heaven , and accordingly they practise● it onely in case of danger of death , very seldome , and this they did to unbelievers children , as well as believers , 〈◊〉 a work of charity , not of institution or right by their birth to either but these things mr. cr. pleads against them 〈…〉 well as my self , and both the doctrine and practise of paedobaptists now is against the ancients as well as mine : yea more , in that they had a constant course of baptizing the catechized persons upon a solemn profession of faith , and did in all baptisms , except that of the clinici , that is sick persons baptized in their beds , plunge the whole body , or dip it so as to be under water ▪ which are now clean otherwise and things unknown among paedobaptists . so that as bp. usher in his answer to the ●esuites challenge , in the article about praying for the dead , p. . proves the romanists to have rejected the ancient prayer for the dead , because they pray not for martyrs and others in bliss for their resurrection , but for persons in purgatory to be delivered thence ; so i may truly ●ay , the paedobaptists now have rejected the ancient infant baptism , sith they deny baptism necessary to salvation , or that it gives grace , and they do it onely to believers infants , by sprinkling or perfusion , without mersion , scarce to any but infants , without any solemn course of catechising ordinarily in order to future baptism , and to infants ordinarily out of the case of danger of death , upon pretence of a federal holiness by birth , and ordinance of visible churchmembership unrepealed , unknown to the ancients , and therefore their doctrine and practise hath no patronage from them . mr. cr. p. . saith , that i cunningly alter the subject of the question , when i say infant-sprinkling was not held of the whole church ; and tels me , that he and others do not say so . which intimates that hee and others desert the maintainance of sprinkling infants as ancient ; which diffidence is some argument that the late assembly have forsaken the ancient way of baptism by dipping , having in the directory determined sprinkling as sufficient , and in the practise of many of them taken away the old fonts , more agree●ble to antiquity , and brought in little stone basons near the pulpit or readers pew , like popish holy water pots ▪ fit onely for the novelty of sprinkling after the scottish mod● . n●r is mr. crs. way of powring water on the face , or dipping in part of the head , any more the baptizing christ appointed , or antiquity used , exc●pt in the case of the clinici . 't is true gods ordinances are not destructive to nature , who requires mercy and not sacrifice ; but this proves 〈…〉 baptism should be omitted altogether , and not the ordinance 〈◊〉 , and people mocked as they are by the preacher , that saith falsly , he baptizeth the person , when he doth onely sprinkle or powr water on the face , or dip in part of the head . sect . lxxxix . the testimonies of the ancient writers of the greek church concerning infant baptism are examined , and my exceptions made good against mr cragge , dr. hammond , dr. homes , mr. marshal . the alledging of pseudo . dionisius the areopagite , and clements apostolical constitutions , is but to abuse the world with counterfeit names , discovered by many learned pa●ists and pro●estants to be such , and the like is to be said of justin martyrs forged testimony qu. . ad orthodoxos : which are not rejected because questioned , as mr. cr. seems to intimate , but because they are by many strong evidences proved not to have been the authors , whose names they bear . as for the evidence to matter of fa●t they give , that infants were baptized in that age ●n which they were written , i do readily grant i● ▪ a●d before too ; yet think it no advantage ●or the present pre●ended infant baptism , which is clean otherwise , and upon other reasons : a● particularly , that the baptized infants obtained good things at the resurrection by baptism , but the unbaptized obtain not good things . nor is there a word in that to confirm the novel doctrine of the childrens right to baptism , as being in covenant with the parents . for neither are the parents there said to be believer● , but the bringers ; nor by the parents faith are they said to have right to baptism , but by the faith of the bringers to obtain good things at the resurrection : and therefore in vain doth mr. cr. thus endeavour to hide the deformity of that authors doctrine , which is no better then that which commonly protestant divines condem as popish . more honestly in this then mr. cr. doth bellarmin tom . . l. . de effectu sacram ▪ c. . say , ju●●in . in his apology to antoninus , saith , we obtain remiss●●● of afore committed ●●ns in water , &c. and before he had said , that no man was brought to ba●tism , unless he before believed . like things hee hath in his dialogue with triphon . and ch . . alwayes in the church the custome wa● , that those who would be christians should first be made catechized persons ▪ and long enough instructed , and not baptized unless instru●ted , and firm , and stable in faith , citing to thi● end justin in his apology to antoninus , as showing the manners of the church . as for irenaeus his testimony , lib. . adv . bar . c. . it proves not infant baptism . for though it be true that mr. mede in his diatribe on tit. . . say , none , i trow will deny that when the apostle speaks of saving us by washing of regeneration , and renewing of the holy ghost , hee speaks of baptism yet it follows not that that the apostle meant by regeneration , baptism ; nor is it likely , sith the word [ regeneration ] is no● to be read [ by the washing which is regeneration ] as if it were by apposition , but [ of regeneration ] as the genitive possessive , and the meaning is by the washing which signifies regeneration , which is before the washing ; yet if it were so , it proves not irenaeus meant by [ renascuntur are born again ] are baptized , sith he saith not are by washing born again , as the apostles phrase is . nor though it be granted that in justin martyr and others of the ancients [ to be regenerated ] is [ to bee baptized ] doth it appear that irenaeus meant it so in that place , unless it were proved it is so onely meant by him and the ancients . nor doth irenaeus l. . c. . term baptism regeneration as dr. homes p. . suggests , but saith thus to the denying of baptism of that generation which is into god. but that indeed the word [ renascuntur are born again ] is not meant of baptism , is proved from the words and the scope of them . for . the words are [ per eum renascun●ur , by him , that is christ , are born again ] and it is clear from the scope of the speech about the fulness of his age as a perfect master , that [ by him ] notes his person according to his humane nature . now if then [ by him are born again ] be as much as [ by him are baptized ] this should bee irenoeus his assertion , that by christ himself in his humane body infants and little ones , and boyes and young men , and elder men , are baptized unto god. but this speech is most manifestly false , for neither did christ baptize any at all in his own person , the evangelist john . , . expresly affirming , that though the pharisees heard that jesus made and baptized more disciples then john , yet jesus himself did not baptize , but his disciples did baptize , nor did the disciples baptize any infant at all as may bee gathered from the whole n. t. . the word which irenaeus expresseth , whereby persons were born again to god by christ , is applied to the example of his age , as the words and sc●pe show . omnem ▪ tatem sanctificans ●or illam quae ad i●fum erat similitudinem . ideo per omnem venit aetatem & infantibus infans factus , sanctificans infantes , in parvulis parvulus sanctificans hanc i●sam habentes aetatem , simul & exemplum illis pictatis effectus & justiti & subjectionis . juvenibu● juvenis exemplum ju●enibus siens & sanctificans domino . sic & senior in senioribus , ut sit perfe●tus magist●● in omnibu● non solum secundum expositionem veritatis , sed secundum aet●tem sanctific●ns simul & seniores , exem●lum ●●sis quoque fiens . but hee was not in his age an example of every age by his ●aptism , as if hee did by it sanctifie every age , for then he should have been baptized in every age but in respect of the holiness o● his humane nature which did rem●in in each age , and so exemplarily san●●ifie each age to god , so as that no age but was capable of holiness by conformity to his example . irenaeus his words are omne● enim venit per semetipsum salvare , omnes inquam qui ●er eum renasc●ntu● in deum , infantes & parvulo● , & pueras & ●uvenes & seniores , 〈◊〉 if the meaning were that christ came ●o 〈◊〉 all that w●re baptized by him , or by his appointment , then he came to save simon magus , and whoever are or have been baptized righ●ly , even judas iscari●t , if he were bap●ized . but in that sense the proposi●ion of irenaeus were most p●lp●bly false , and therefore that sense i● no● to be attri●u●ed to his words . . christ is by irenaeus said to san●●ifie as a perfect master ▪ not onely according to the exposition of truth , but also as an example to them of piety , justice , and subjection ; but this is to be● understood not in respect of his baptism onely , but his whole life , in which he was an example even an infant , for then he did willingly empty himself , took upon him the form of a servant ▪ was made in the likeness of men , and being in fashion a man humbled himself to death , phillip . . , . by all which reasons i presume the readers , who is willing to see truth , will perceive this passage of irenaeus to be wrested by paedobaptists against its meaning , to prove an use of paedobaptism in his time . which i have the more largely insisted on , because indeed it is the onely testimony of credit which paedobaptists have any colour from for infant baptism in ●he d . ce●tury : in the d. century it is not denied , but that infant baptism and many more corruptions were ; yet even then it was very rare , in case onely of danger of death , ●ut of that case disswaded , in that case allowed upon the conceit of giving grace by it , and saving the infant from perishing . but i shall allow mr. cr. and other paedobaptists , to say the most they can for this corruption . origen is alledged next by mr. cr. in rom. . l. . homil . th . on levitic . and . th . on luke . the exceptions against these are . . they are translations , origens greek in the original is lost . the same may be said of st. matthews gospel , which he writ in the hebrew or syriack now lost , the greek copy onely extant . and of the lxx● . translations of the old t. which our saviour followed more exactly then the hebrew original , translations agreeing with the original copy b●ing equally authentick . answ. . there is no certainty , nor probability that matthew did write in hebrew , sai●h the annotator on matth ▪ in his argument of that gospel the new annotations called by some the assemblies at westminster . pareus in his proeme to his commentary on matthew , with the leave of antiquity , eras●●● and other learned interpreters doubt not a little of that opinion that he wrote in hebrew , and the reasons of doubting seem not to be light , which may be seen there , with answer to the objections produced out of antiquity . . whether there were such a translation by lxx . jews , as josephus relates of aristeas , l. . antiq . judaic . c. . i do not so much question , as the particularities of the relation , but the authority of it is much qu●stioned , of which much may be seen in chamier . paustr. cath . tom . . l. . and it is much doubted whether that we have be it , of which i am told learned usher hath written , which i have not seen . but sure our saviour who spake in hebrew or syriack followed it not , nor do i think it safe or right to say that the evang●lists or other holy writers followed it more exactly then the hebrew original . but sure the translation of ruffinus of origens homiles is nothing like to either of these , in which he confesseth he did not exactly follow the original ▪ and it is likely for this reason voss. thes . theol. de paedobap . part . thesi . . said , but we shall the less care for origen , because the things we cited are not extant in greek . but mr. cr. adds . but ly . it is said that the translation is censured by erasmus and perkins , as in something contracting ▪ adding , or altering . what is added is ingeniously confessed by ruffinus the translator himself ; neither does acu●e erasmus , nor judicious perkins , nor any of the ancients most critical , impeach him in the forequoted testimonies ; therefore thi● exception is blank . answ. this exception is good notwithstanding this answer . for . perkins doth not onely censure ruffinus his translation , as in something contracting , adding , or altering ; but also puts origens commentaries on the epistle to the romanes not faithfully translated by ruffinus , among his counte●feit works . and erasmus in his censure of the homilies on leviticus , saith , that a man cannot be certain whether he reads ruffinus , or origen . and because dr. homes saith i make no exception against the translation of the homilie on luke , he may take notice that erasmus in his luke● . . speaks much against the paraphrase of origen on luke and in ●is annot. on luke . . sic enim visus est sentir● quisqui● i● suit cujus extant i● lucam commentarii adamantii titulo , which sh●ws that erasmus took not those commentaries for origens , or at least d●ubted thereof . and i shall add the words of scul●etus , in his medulla patrum , l. . c . jam ruffinu● plurium librorum origenis interpre ●a●t●m ●●surpavit lic●ntiam : ut ademerit , adjecerit , mut●rit , quae sibi viderentur adim●nda , adjicienda , mutanda : ut s●p● incertus sit lector , utrum origenem legat an ruffinum : cum graeca origenis opera non extent ho●●e , ● quibus latina versio ●orrigi possit & emend●ri . and i find cited erasmus his preface on hillary , a● charging ruffinus with this practise of adding and ch●nging be ●nd an interpreter in all his translations , as of eusebius hi● history ▪ but chiefly of origens writings . grot. annot . in matth. . . ●uid o●igenes senserit ex ipsius scriptis difficile est dictu , adeo omnia a ruffi●o sun● interpolata . hieronymus apol. adv . ruff. l. . speaks thus to ruffi●●● concerning some of his translations of origen , novit conscientia ●ua 〈◊〉 addiderris , quae subtra●eris , qu● in utranque partem , ut ●ibi v●sum suerit immut●ris . whereas therefore mr. ms. fr●en● , defence part p . tels me . you call the author of them supposed o●igen : it had been your part before you had so branded them , fi●st to ha●● made it manifest by some undeniable ev●dence or other that they were not o●●gens : i tell him , that being but a respondent , it was enough that i sh●wed suc● evidences a●● did to prove the passages doubtfull , an uncertain witness being no g●od proof . and to dr homes his saying in his animadv● on my exerci● p . truly a man can hardly with patience enoug● look upon mr. 〈◊〉 ●is dealing in this : when we urge origen , he is not origen wi●h him ; but if he do it , then origen must be received ▪ i answer , if the dr. had had 〈…〉 e●ough to have considered my words , he might have observed , that i onely named origen h●m on rom. . but did neither assig● the 〈…〉 for the time in which thos● words were written , no● did 〈…〉 that they were to be received 〈◊〉 his , but added two reasons to 〈◊〉 this imagination , ●s i● by alledging thos● words under the 〈…〉 homil . on rom. . ( by which onely it is known ) i did 〈…〉 his , whereof the one was th● cen●ur● of erasmus , the 〈…〉 austin , nor hierom men●i●● origen as ●vouching 〈…〉 which is enough to sh●w it to be likely , that the passag●● 〈…〉 by ruffinus , though hierom and others mention not these in particular , sith neither doth he mention all the particulars of his dealings in this kind , but chargeth them upon his conscience . nor is it true , that what is added is ingeniously confessed by ruffinus the translator himself : for though the words cited by mr. ms. friend , defence , p. . shew that ruffinus acknowledged of what sort his addi●ions were to his translation of his homilies on leviticus , yet they shew not what in particular they were ; nor is any thing produced to shew the words cited for infant baptism were not one . nor is there any good answer made to my allegation to prove that passage likely to be one , . from the bringing of them in ( as it seemed to me when i read them ) in a patcht manner , not as if they were woven at first with the whole cloth , that is the rest of the writing before and after , but as sewed to it by a botcher , without any handsome coherence ; which neither mr. ms. friend , p. . nor dr. homes p. . deny , and therefore i count worth the observing by the judicious reader , when he shall examine the places , as being of some moment to discern whether they were origens words at first , or ruffinus his assument . . because they are the very words which are frequently used by the refuters of pelagians in the th . century , who denied original sin , whereas origen is taxed as the very father of pelagianism , by hieron . praesat . ad lib. . in hierem. and elsewhere , as teaching 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 perfection or freedome from sin , contrary to the express words of those cited passages ; and when august . tom . . l . adv . julian . c. , . alledgeth ancients avouching original sin , he never mentions origen ; and therefore these passages , being so express against pelagians , and in the very words used by the refuters of them in augustines time , are to be judged to be added either by ruffinus , whose words to the same purpose on the th . psalm are cited by chamier , pa●str . cath . tom . . l. . c. . § . . and of whom the same author , tom . . l. . c. . § . . saith , sciunt omnes docti exiguam fuisse ruffini in vertendis authoribus religionem , or by some other . nor are these passages in origen onely hints against some piece of pelagianism , which might be conceived by some few in his time , as dr. homes minceth the matter , p. ● . but express arguing against the main point of pelagianism , denying original corruption , and that in the chief arguments used by augustine and others . nor did origen pelagianize a little onely , but is supposed to have first brought in pelagianism into the church , hieron . adv . ruffin . saith dr. owen ▪ display of arminianism , ch . . and though it 's not ●enied that origen did deliver contraries , yet i think it 's hard to find him so often , and so directly arguing against his own tenet . nor do i conceive , however dr. homes , mr. blake , mr. m. and others imagine contradictions in my words which are not so , that ever dr. homes hath found in my writings such clashings against my self . nor do i make such an argument as m. ms friend defence , ● . . answers , ●hat the passages make against the pelagians , and therefore necessarily they were written after the pelagian heresie was broached ( which is a meer shifting fashion in that author who ever he were , used before in answering my argument from irenaeus words and scope , which he answers as if i made it from the scope and not the words ) but thus , these passages are plainly and directly against the pelagians chief point of impeccability , which origen is charged to bee the author of ; therefore according to rivets rule tractat . de patrum autoritate c. . it 's not likely they were origens , to which he answers not . i will add only the words of vossius hist. pelag. l. . part . . th . . p. . idem origines t. . p. . nisi is potius rufinus interpres ( quis enim , quae vel origenis , vel paraphrastae adeò liberi suerint , hodii discern●t ) in cap. ix . ( rectiùs vi. ) ad rom. ubi ait , ab sorde p●ccati m●ndus non est quisquam , etiamsi unius diei fuêrit vita ejus super terram . sed fuse clareque imprimis ●oc de peccato scribit lib. viii . & xii . in levit. nisi isti in leviticum commentarii cyrilli potiùs sint , quando etiam in hujus operibus inveniun●u● , ac , ut in origenianis libri sexdecim , ita inter cyrilliana sexdecim homiliae appellantur , which shews , that that learned writer for paedobaptism , did distrust those very passages cited for infant baptism to have been none of origens . mr. c. a●ds . the third thing objected is , that he calls it a tradition ; so does the apostle things contained in scripture , thes. . . epiphanius calls baptism and other divine truths 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 traditions , and yet quotes scripture for them . bellarmin calls infant baptism a tradition , and yet brings ten places of scripture to prove it . austin affirms lib. . c. . de genes . that the custome of our mother the church in baptising of little ones i● in no wise to be despised , nor to be thought superfluous , nor at all to be believed , unless it were an apostolick tradition , and yet proves the necessity of it from joh. . . unless one be born again of water and the spirit , &c. answ. it was granted in my examen that the greatest points of faith though written , were by the ancients called apostolical traditions , but in this point that the words ascribed to origen meant an unwritten tradition , i alledged . that the phraie● pro hoc & ecclesia ab apostolis traditionem suscepit , and secundum ecclesiae observantiam , are sufficient proof to them who are acquainted with the ancients writings of those times . to this is nothing replied by mr. ms. friend ▪ dr. homes , or m. cr. to shew that these phrases are applied to any other then unwritten traditions , when they are used of ri●es , for the use or institution of which they alledge no text of scripture . . that there is no text of scripture cited for the use or insti●●●ion of infant baptism . to this it is replied , that origen layes the ground on the scriptures . but those scriptures are brought for the proof of origi●al sin , and the necessit● of infant baptism , which were reasons of the churches observance , not proofs of the use and institution of it . and that the scriptures do not give any proof of the use or ●nstitution of infant baptism , but onely grounds of the reasonableness , and why the church took it up , is shewed to have been the judgement of many learned papist● and protestants of later and elder time , in my praecursor sect which may bee easily observed , because they alledge nothing out of scripture about ●nsti●u●ion or practise of it , but of nece●●●ty to save th● infant ; which being a mistake , it appears ●he tradition wa● not from the apostles . besides , as augustin alledged joh. . . for inf●nt baptism , so he also alledged joh ▪ for infant communio● which hee and the ancients observed a● an apostolick tradition , 〈◊〉 many churches observe even to this day ; yet we conclude it is but an unwritten tradition , and so judged by the ancients : all the places of the fathers which cite scripture for infant baptism , infant communion , easter , lent●●ast , and many other things which the ancients observed , shewing rather the reason of their observation , then the institution , as mr. cawdrey speaks in another case , sabb. rediv. part . . chap. . § . . to the th . section of my praecursor , mr. baxter in his praefestinantis morator saith , the ancients took infant baptism , as you say , for an apostolical tradition , but not unwritten . the warrant they supposed written : but not the history de facto . answ. the ancients must needs take infant baptism for an unwritten tradition when they supposed the history neither de facto no● of the institution to be written , though they ●ook the custome of the church ( as austin tom . . l. . de genes . ad litteram c terms i● , having su●h reason from the necessity of it to save them perishing upon the mistake of joh. . . for their warrant . but how poor a mat●●r was taken by the church for a reason to co●tinue a custome , may ●ppear even by those words of austin in that place , which shew also it was taken onely for a custome of the church taken up by them , and not app●inted by th● apostles . for having spoken as doubtfull and uncertain what to say about the question before agitated by him , concerning the creation of the souls of the children from the parents bec●us● of th● objection fro● 〈◊〉 baptism of little ones , he ●hen adds ; yet the custome of ou● mother the church in baptising little one● , is not to be d●sp●sed nor by any mean● to be accounted superfluous , nor a● all to be believed unless it were an apostolical tradition for that little age hath great weight of testimony , which first me●ited to shed bloud for christ. whereby it may appear , . that austin●ook ●ook i● for a custome of the church , without example or institution written . . that he took such a frivolou● p●●●ence as the death of the children of bethlehem slain b● herod , matth. . to have great weight of testimony for the believing of infant bap●ism to have been an apostolical tradition . it would be counted arrogance in me to censure the fathers , yet when i find such silly reasons as austin here and elsewhere , and cyprian epist. ad fid●m , g●ve a● warrant for infant bap●ism , so slightly passed over by mr. b. and ot●ers , a●d thei● testimonies still urged for the credit of infant bap●ism ▪ which do wi●h any that is willing to see the we●kness of them discredit it , i cannot but for the truths sake say , that as in many other things so in this of infa●t baptism the fathers speeches are so vain , as th●t there is more need to bewail the errour they have led pe●ple into , then to the continuance of th● deceiving of people by them , to alledge them for proofs , or to magnifie , justifie or excuse them . mr. b. adds . you might have spared all the . page , where you prove that papists take it for an unwritten tradition . we know they are desirous of any pretence to set tradition above scripture ▪ yet you know bellarmin and others commonly prove it by scripture . the words of becan●s ( not § . . as you say , but § . . ) yeeld , the 〈◊〉 rightly interpre●ed to prove infant baptism , and that 's all that i desire . i had thought that chamiers answer to this might have satisfied you . if you have forgot it , peruse it again tom . . lib. . c. . § . , &c. and tom . . l. . c. . § . . answ. i could not well have spared any part of that page . not onely later papists engaged in the modern controversies , but also elder and disingaged papists and others , were alledged by me , of whom it is not meet to suspect that they did acknowledge that infant baptism is an unwritten tradition , out of a de●re to set tradition above scrip●u●e , but out of cleer evidence of the t●u●h of what they say . nor do i think mr. b. can shew one author until luthers day , who made infant baptism any other then an unwritten tradition , although they produce many of them scriptures for the necessity , reasonableness , and lawfulness of the church to use it , to whose authority they ascribed too much in the appointing such rites , and interpreting ●criptures to that end . i do not finde that the engaged papists cited by me , did set tradition above scripture , b●t that they make it equall i grant . i know bellarmin tom . . l. . de sacram . bapt . c. . brings three arguments from scrip●ure for infant baptism , and c. . saith , deducitur evidenter ex scripturis , u● di●imus , but how he means it hee 〈◊〉 us thus in the same chapter ; that though the argument of the anabaptists from defect of command or example have g●eat force against lutherans , for as much as they use that principle every where , that the ●ite which is not in scripture having no command nor example there , is to be rejected , yet it is of no force against catholicks . for alt●ough we find no command expresly , that we should baptize infants , yet that also is openly enough gathered out of scriptures , as we have shewed above : and besides the tradition of the apostles is of no less authority with us , then scripture , for the apostles spake with the same spirit with which they did write . but that this is an apostolick tradition , wee thence know whence we know the apostolick scripture to be the apostolick scripture ; to wit , from the testimonies of the ancient church . the words of becanus were cited rightly by me out of his manual of controversies l. . c. . § . . ( not § . . as mr. b. corrects me without cause ) and they plainly shew the meaning of those men to be , that the scripture onely proves infant baptism by that sense of it , which is not manifest but by the tradition , and practise of the church i have perused chamier paustr. cath. ( not tom . . as mr. b. directs , i know none such ) but tom . . l. . c. . § . , &c. and tom . . l . c. . § . . but i am not thereby satisfied , that either the ancients took infant baptism for any other then an unwritten tradition or that it ought to be taken . mr. b. proceds . mr. rogers hath made you know he is of another judgement . mr bedford tels me he hath corrected his word● in a later edition . how could you allege dr. field without considering how you wrong'd your self ? is nothing written in scripture but expresly ? yea is not that scripture proof , and plain proof , which shews plainly from scripture the grounds reasons and causes of the necessity of the practise ? dr prideaux thought episcopacy provable from scripture : and therefore if hee thought that infant baptism must bee proved the same way , he is sure against you . for dr. taylour , if you have read all his books , i hope you will no more reckon him amongst protestants , having so much of the body of popery in them . mr. youngs words ( if they be his ) are against you in the thing you cite them for . there are testimonia minùs aperta : and there are testimonia aperta pro fundamto & praemissis , quae sunt minùs aperta direct● pro conclusione . my audaciousness in asserting plain scripture proof must bee b●tter repressed then thus , if you will satisfie men of reason and conscience . answ. i have made known in my apology sect . . how mr. rogers shifts but answers not the allegation i made of his words . and if m. bedford have corrected his words , i wish it have not been f●r the cause sake , against his conscience . if he and mr. rogers can so easily say and unsay , who can give credit to men that can thus blow hot and cold wi●h the same breath ? i know no wrong to my self done , by alleging dr. field . though things be written in scripture which are not so expresly , yet is not that scripture proof , nor plain proof for infant baptism , any more then infant communion , which shews plainly from scripture , pauls conclusion of original sin , rom . . and christs joh. . . which ancients took falsly for grou●ds , reasons and causes of the necessity o● infant baptism , as they did joh. . . of infant communion , yet took the use to bee a custome ●f the church , countenanced from scripture without institution of christ , or practise of the apostles and that this was dr. fields meaning , is plain from his words ; and this seems to have been the common opinion of the prelates of the church of england , by th● words by way of preface used at the solemnity of ba●tism , and in sundry places of the common prayer book , catechism , art . . of the church of england . and after this manner thought dr. prideaux infant baptism and episcopacy proveable by scripture . i have not read all dr. taylors works , nor do i know but that hee is to bee reckoned among protestants . dr. youngs words are much for me , . in that he produceth no precept but that of circumcision for infant baptism . . th●t hee confesseth the practise apostolical to be somewhat obscurer , and therefore addes the cust me of the church from the times of the first ages , which is in effect all one as to resolve the proof of infant baptism finally into the custome of the whole church , especially when he saith ; we cannot smite the anabaptists with plain testimonies . nor can mr. bs. distinction of more or less open testimonies help him , sith dr. young denies , that paedobaptists can smite with open or plain ●estimonies , the anabaptists barking against infant baptism . if mr. bs. audaciousness in asserting plain scripture proof for infant baptism be not yet repressed , nor men of reason and conscience satisfied , i must leave them to the lord. enough i think is said about origens words . i go on . dr. hammond in his defence of infants baptism , pag. . saith thus ; about the same time ( the d. century ) or without question soon after wrote the author ( under the name of dionysius areopagita ) de eccl. hierarch . for as by photius it appears , theodorus presbyter about the year . debated the question , whether that writer were dionysius mentioned in the acts or no. and of this no doubt hath been made ; but that he was a very ancient and learned authour . he therefore in his th . ch . of eccles. hierarch . edit . morel . p. . proposeth the question , as that which may seem to prophane persons ( i. e. heathens ) ridiculous , why children which cannot yet understand divine things , are made partakers of the sacred birth from god , i. e. evidently of baptism ( concerning the baptizing of infants saith maximu● his scholiast ) adding to the same head also , that others in their stead p●onounce the abrenunciations and divine confessions . and his answer is , . that many things which are unknown by us why they are done , have yet causes worthy of god . that we affirm of this the same things which our divine officers of the church being instructed by divine tradition have brought down unto us , and again , our divine guides ( i. e. the apostles saith maximus ) considering this , appointed that infants should thus be admitted according to the sacred manner , nothing can bee more clear then that the apostolical tradition is by this ancient and elegant writer avouched for the baptizing of infants , as a sufficient account of that matter , against the reproaches and scoff● of prophane or heathen men , who deemed it unreasonable . and so there is a most convincing testimony for that time , wherein that author wrote , which must needs be in the th . century , before theodorus presbyters debating the question concerning him , but most probably more ancient , and so to be placed in this d. age . answ. . it is to be noted by the reader , that dr. hammond doth not so much as pretend the antiqui●y of that author to be afore the d. century , and consequently not that dionysius the ar●opagite mentioned act . as some papists would have it , but are by learned men both papists and protestants refuted , whereof may be seen magdeb. centur . . l. . c. . scultet . med . patrum , l. . c ▪ . perkins prepar . to the demonstr of the probleme . . though dr. hammond conceive , that that author is to be placed in the d age by reason of some words of photius , ( which for want of books i cannot examine ) yet salmasius ad col●ium saith p ▪ ● . quamvis subdititius ille ( diony●●us areopagita ) sit auctor nec antiquior quinto seculo . p. . quem certa fides est scripsisse circa finem quinti seculi . and that which scultetus ubi supra observ●s , that in his book of ecclesiastical hierarchy he writes many things of temples , of ●ltars , of holy places , of a qui●e , of consecration of monks , of the tonsure and shaving of heads , i● me thinks a good argument , that the author was som● idle dreaming monk no elder then the th . century , and is so far from being acc●unted a w●iter of esteem among divines , that he is rather censured as one who by his curiosities hath corrupted divinity . . whether those who deemed infan● baptism unreasonable were infidels who derided it , or christians who scrupled it , is no● c●eared by the dr. nor is it a●pare●t that by divine guides are meant the apostles . b●t if it were , that author makes it no other then an unwritten tradition , if he did he would ●ave alledged some scripture for i● ; and the words [ our divine officers being instructed , not as dr. hammond translates it by divine tradition , but unto or of the old tradition have brought down unto us ] do shew , that he counted it a tradition unwritten and delivered from one officer to another until that time . now it is granted that in the end of the d. and following ages , infant baptism , and in like manner infant communion were counted traditions apostolical to save infants from perishing , and such seems to have been the opinion of that author . pamelius annot . . on cyprian de lapsis . tractat hunc locum d. augustinus ep. . ad bonifac. haud obscure autem hic quomodo & supr● indicatur vetus ecclesiae consuetudo communionis parvulorum , qualem etiam indica●e videtur dionysius areopagita sub finem eccles. hierarch . & sua adhuc aetate d. aug. epist. . ad vitalem . all which being conside●ed , this testimony is so far from being a most convinci●g ●estimo●y of the derivation of infant baptism from the apostle● , ●hat considering up●n what ground they observed it , and how much vanity was in the ancients in their retaining many fond customes , and fathering them on the apostles , and when common defending them by scriptures perverted , it is a convincing testimony that infant baptism was no more fro●●he apostles then infant communion , both meer corruptions taken upon mistakes and defended by abuse of scripture . mr. m. mr. cr. dr. homes , dr. hammond alledge gregory nazianzen his th . oration about baptism ▪ in which he adviseth the baptizing of infants , which saith dr. hammond , is a plain testimony of the churches doctrine at that time , the th . century , about the year of christ , . he flourished , and died in the year . against this sundry things are objected , . that the same author saith ( as i find his words in chamier . paustr. cath . tom . l. . c. . § . . ) where he gives instance in his th . oration of baptism , of those who decease without baptism , neither can they receive it , either perhaps by reason of infancy , or some altogether involuntary chance , by which it is that even they , who would , obtain not that gift . from whence it is manifest , that in gregory nazianzens time infants did decease without baptism , and that they could not receive it by reason of infancy . nor is this objection salved by making the reason of these childrens not receiving baptism , because that sometimes it might fall out that christians might not have the opportunity of bringing their children to baptism , because they dwelt among infidels or paynims , where they could not enjoy the benefit of the word and sacraments for themselves or their children ; therefore they were necessitated to put off the baptising of their children , which seems to be mr. ms friends evasion in his defence , p. . in that he applies this passage in nazianzen as well to the hinderance of the baptism of children as of elder persons . for the words of nazianzen shew , that as some deceased without baptism by reason of some 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , unvoluntary accident , whether by the hand of god or men ; so others he saith deceased 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 barely by reason of infancy , and that by reason of it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they were not in power or capacity to receive it . which is a plain testimony , that however in c●se of apparent da●ger of death then infants mi●ht receive baptism according to his opinion , yet ordinarily they were not in the power or capacity to receive it , and so did sometimes die without it . . it is objected , and thereby this observation is confirmed , that when he comes in the same oration to set down what he would have done about infants baptism he resolves . that they should be baptized if danger did urge it , that they might not miss of the common grace , intimating th●t otherwise they should . . he gives his judgement for others that they should wait longer . . the reason he giveth of this longer waiti●g is , that they may hear some mystical or spiritual thing , may be taught to answer somewhat , and if they understand not fully , perfectly , and exa●●ly , yet they are instructed and informed . . that ( not as dr. hammond to give colour to his conceit of sanctifying to be the same with baptizing , cor. . . by this means they may be baptised souls and bodies ; for if this were good reading , . they should baptize themselves , . they should bap●ize ●heir souls which were ridiculous ; ) but , so as that they sanctifie both souls and bodies by or with the great mystery of initiation . which shews he conceived . that by baptism benefit did come to infants though they perceived it not ; that it sanctifies their bodies ; . that it is be●ter done , when children are taught to answer ; . then they sanctifie soul● and bodies , . that danger of death was a forcible impulsive to move to the baptism of in●ants , . that without baptism infants should mis● o● the common 〈◊〉 . to 〈…〉 dr hammond thus , . it is clear that it no way prejudg●s ●he doctrine and practise of the church formerly set down , 〈…〉 him , that infant children , indefinitely considered might be b●ptized ▪ and if dang●r appr●ac●ed , must , how young soever they were : which is as contrary to the an●ipaedobaptist , and so to mr. t. as any thing . answ. . the phrase [ the doctrine and practise of the church ] is according to the pr●latical language ▪ i think as much as the doctrine and practise of the prelates , 〈…〉 to the scripture language is non sense , the church bei●g the number of persons taught , and on whom bap●izing 〈…〉 , not the person● teaching or practising , who are stil●d ●he elders of the 〈◊〉 in s●●ip●ure . . that the elders of any church 〈…〉 n●●●ianzen taug●● that infant children , indefinitely considered , might be baptised , and if d●●ger ●pproached , must , how young soever they w●●e , 〈…〉 not pretended of any besides the co●ncel mention●● in cyp●ian , epist. ● 〈…〉 , whic● it is true determined , in opposition t● 〈◊〉 his scr●ple , the lawfulness of baptizing any day , but not of any infants who were likely ●o live without apparent shew of danger of death , but ●a●her ●he contrary is manifest from their reason , w●y they would h●ve them bapt●zed any day afore th● th . b●cause the son of man ●am to save m●ns souls , as much as in us lies , if it may be , no soul is to be lo●● , and therefore to be baptized any day afore the th . n●w this 〈◊〉 , that 〈…〉 onely of those infants who being in apparent danger of d●ath would be lost , if not baptized . n●w it is true 〈…〉 , and it is as contrary to the 〈◊〉 of 〈…〉 position of the papists , tha● ba●tism confers 〈…〉 that infants dying unbaptised pe●●sh , and if 〈…〉 this doctrine and practise of the church , yet it doth prejudice the doctrine and practise of protestant paedobaptists , who , contrary to nazianzens mind , would not have infants baptized in that case onely , or for his reason , but would have infants baptized out of the case of imminent and apparent danger of death , and not deferred , upon a pretence of a covenant right and visible churchmembership as their priviledge , not as necessary to avoid the danger of perishing . dly . ( saith dr. hammond ) that it is but his private opinion pretending not so much as to any part of the church of that , or former ages to authorize it . answ. . that tertullian did in like manner determine as nazianzen did , that infants were not to be baptized but in case of imminent and apparent danger of death , will appear in the examining of his testimony among the latine doctors . . i know no reason why the counsel and opinion of these two should not as well be counted the doctrine and practise of the church , and to be of equal authority as cyprians , and his councels , augustines , and hieroms . dly . ( saith dr. hammond ) that the state of children being so weak and uncertain , that 't is hard to affirm of any that they are not ( for the first three years ) in any danger , his councel for deferring will hardly be ever practical to any . answ. the counsel of nazianzen to baptize in case of danger was not of infants that are in any danger ▪ but of urgent or pressing danger , as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , press , urge , or impel , shews . and thus it is practical , as the use of private baptism in those places where it is used doth sufficiently shew . fourthly , saith he , that the deferring of which nazianzen speaks is most probably to bee understood of those whose ●arents are newly converted , and themselves doubt whether they shall be yet baptised or no , for to such he speaks in that place from p. . a. answ. the reasons being general , this restriction appears groundless , not is the drs. conceit of any validity , that because four pages before ●e speaks to them , therefore that counsel of his concerns their children onely . lastly , saith he , that the deferring till three years old , if it were allowed , would no way satiisfie the antipaedobaptists pretensions ▪ and so still the former passages ought be of force with all , and no heed given to the whispers of mr ● . and others , as if that holy father disswaded baptism in any age unless in case of danger , when he clearly saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , let him in the tenderest age be baptised and consecrated to the spirit . answ . why hee should call my words or writings whispers any more then his own , sith they are audible enough were it not that i speak to deaf men who will not hear , i do not deprehend , i imagine they are louder then the doctour would have them . . tha● men should not give heed to my words as well as the doctours , if they seek the truth impartially , i know not , sith where truth is sought both sides are to bee heard . . it is true the deferring baptism till three years old , will not satisfie us as sufficient to rectifie the abuse of infant baptism is granted , no nor till thirty , except the person become a disciple and believer in christ : but it satisfies us in this , that nazianzens judgement was , that little ones should not be baptized till they come to some understanding of the thing signified by baptism , unless in case of imminent and apparent dan●er of death , though we conceive he allowed too short a time to instruct the● . . if the word consecrated be meant of baptism , and from the nayles signifie tender age , yet it is not likely he meant this tender age of infancy , sith hee made persons uncapable of baptisme by reason of infancy , judged it better to have them first instructed ; if he did , he would have it to onely in case of danger of death imminent . but saith dr. homes , p. . . if greg. nazianzen doth give reason why infants should bee baptised , in case they are not likely to live to be of ripe years , it is so much the better for us . ●nsw . i suppose the doctour doth not think with nazianzen , that the danger of dea●h is a sufficient reason for the bapti●zing an infant , for that ariseth from the popish conceits of regenoration by baptism , ex opere operato , and the necessity of it to save an infant from perishing . and therefore nazianzens reason must bee the worse for him , sith it thwarteth his opi●ion of baptizing upon an imagined priviledge of covenant holine●s , and his practise of doing i● ordinarily to infants of churchmembers out of that case . and it would bee considered , that where the ground of a practise is disclaimed the alleging of the practise correspondent to that ground and no further , is impertinent for confirmation of the practise of the same thing , in a different manner , and upon a different ground ; as the protestant divines tell the papists , that their alleging the ancients commemorati●n of the dead , proves not the popish prayi●g for the dead to be ancient , as dr ●sher at large in his answer to the jesuits challenge , sith the popish praying is upon the opinion of purgatory , and for them that are there , the ancients for the apostles , martyrs , c. who are past purgatory , and for their resurrection ; in like manner concerning the allegations of the ancients monkery , which either was necessary onely by reason of the incessant persecutions of those times , or if voluntary , yet with labour of their hands , and so different from the popish mo●kery which is idle , besides gods appointment , vol●n●●r● , superstitious , upon an imagined perfection in that w●ich is indeed sinful . and so for confirmation by laying on of hand , anointing wi●h oyl ▪ use of the signe of the cross , setting up lights and many more , it is fr●quent●y shewed that they countenance no the p●●ish confirmation , extream unction , use of the signe of the cross , lighting candles at noon day in their ●●mples , &c. because they were in different m●nner , and for different reasons and purposes then they are now used by them . and indeed the discovery of the different reasons , manner , and end of rites used b● the ancients , from that they are now used , is of greatest moment to shew the novelty of the popish , prelatical , paedobaptists usages , who have not onely quite departed from the scripture but also from antiquity , even in those things which the ancients practised indeed , but not as they do . secondly , saith dr. homes , he doth give another reason , beside that of partaking of common grace , namely , . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for it is better that they should be sanctified without a feeling of it , then to depart without the seal . so he thinks they are sanctified too in infancy as well as at riper years . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a reason also of this to us is circumcision , that was wont to be done on the th . day , &c. answ. the first of these is no other then the partaking of common grace ( for to partake of the common grace is all one as to be sanctified ) onely with a little enlargement . . the d . is indeed rather a preventing of an objection [ that they could not be par●akers of the common grace without perceiving it ] rather then a further reason of baptizing them . and the answer is from two examples , one of curcumcision which was given to infants without the use of reason , the other of the anoining or sprinkling the door posts , whi●h were things insensitive , bringing salvation to the first born , which is such a woodden reason as dr. homes thought fit to let pass in this place . thirdly , saith dr. homes , wee answer that all three reasons stand in force , as well for all believers infants ( god putting them under the promise , gen. ● . ) a for the infants that are in danger of death . answ. wh●tever force there is in the reasons ( which in my apprehension are frivolous ) to prove dr homes his opinion or practise , yet sure in nazianzens intent they are onely for the colouring over of the practise of infant baptism , of any whether believers or unbelievers children ; onely in case of apparent danger of imminent death , and not at all for countenancing baptizing of believers infants onely at all times as federally holy . fourthly , saith dr. homes , that nazianzen urgeth divers divine reasons ( to him evincing ) for the baptism of infants in danger of death : but for the delaying of others not in danger of dea●h , he saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i give my opinion ●he calls it his opinion . and what is it ? that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , such children should stay till three or four years old more , or less ? and what is to be expected from children of that age ? more then from infants toward baptism ? for nazianzen himself confesseth , that though they may hear and answer some spiritual things , yet they understand imperfectly . but doth nazianzen give us there any scripture for this differing ? none . doth he give any reason ? even in effect the same as for baptizing of infants in danger of death , to wit , that they may be sanctified in mind and body . answ. . t is true nazianzen gives one reason for baptizing infants in case of danger of death , which is the sanctifying them by it , not divers reasons the examples of circumcision and anointing the door p●sts , being answers to an objection , as i said before . now that reason is so far from being divine , that it is from a meer superstitious conceit , as if the meer outward baptism did sanctifie : nor is it the same reason in effect for differing baptism three or four years with that which hee gives for infant baptism in case of danger of death . for though he supposeth in both baptism sanctifies , yet he takes infant baptism to sanctifie onely the body , the other to sanctifie body and mind . he supposeth they may learn some spiritual thing , though imperfectly , and so the baptism may be a sign to them though obscure , and there may be some memory of what is done , though confused , which though it be not as it should be , yet it is better and more agreeable to scripture then the infant baptism , where there is no signification to the baptized , nor remembrance of it . . be it granted that nazianzen expresseth but his opinion , and that it betters not the thing much , and his reasons not so right as they should have been , there is in this passage this evident , that infant baptism was no tthen common as now , nor upon such reasons as now , nor approved of as now it is , but out of the case of danger of death imminent , apparently disswaded , and consequently the present common infant baptism an innovation from what was in that age . dr. hammond adds , that chrysostome in his homily to the neophyti , hath these words , for this cause ( i. e. because there be so many benefits of baptism there recited , ten in number ) we baptise children though they have not sins , and that he flourished in the beginning of the fift age. answ. though finde in two homilies , one in the fifth , the other in the sixth tome of chrysostomes works of eton print , some speeches unto the newly inlightned or planted , yet i finde not these words there , nor any where else in any of his homilies . yet i deny not them to bee chrysostomes finding them in augustin tom . . l. . against julian the pelegian , ch . . but perhaps if the words before were viewed , it might be discerned whether the baptism of little ones then used , were onely in case of danger of death apparently imminent , or without that case . it is likely hee meant that infants or little children were baptized onely in case of danger of death imminent , sith many of his homilies express , even that where these words cited were , exhortations to the newly baptized , and the relation of his life testifies , that when hee was persecuted by the empress , and was about to baptize on the solemn festival in which baptism was used , the persons men and women that were to be baptized by him fled away naked , being ready to be baptized upon his apprehension , which shews they then baptized persons naked . and the occasion of the speech , as s●t down by austin , shews it was done upon the conceit of giving them grace , which is manifest by the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for this cause and the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , also , in the greek , shews there was mention of baptizing others then little children . and in the same place austin saith , ●ohn chrysostome held , believed , and taught this , not onely that little children were not onely to be baptized , but also to have the eucharist or lords supper , for without his flesh and bloud they could not have life . as for the other place dr. hammond ci●es in chrysostoms th . homily on genesis , that baptism is lawfull in the first age , i yeeld that chrysostome did in that age allow infant baptism , but i think the dr. cannot shew that he held it was to bee done out of the case of apparent danger of imminent death , or that the practise of baptizing them out of that case was ordinary it is most evident by many proofs , that both then and some ag●s after , the ordinary usual baptizing was of chatechized persons at the solemn feasts , when most in the empire were by profession christians . sect . lxxxx . the arguments to prove infant baptism an innovation exam. pag. . are made good against mr. marshal , and dr. homes . whereas mr. m. had said in his sermon pag. that it is manifest out of most of the records that wee have of ●●iquity , both in the greek and latin church , that the christian church hath been in possession of the priviledge of baptising the infants of believers for the space of . years and upwards ; i said in my examen p. . but it is wonder to mee that if it were so manifest as you speak , you should finde nothing in eusebius for it , nor in ignatius . nor in clemens alexandrinus , nor in athanasius , nor in epiphanius , that i mention not oth●rs to this mr. m. or his f●iend replies , that i add three arguments to shew that infant baptism was not known in the greek church , but therein he abuseth me , for i add●d them not to that end , but to shew that it was not so manifest as mr. m. said , that it was not universally known . to my mention of the silence of eusebius , &c. he saith . . the question was not started then , as the fathers spake not clearly of the traduction of original sin , before it was denied by the pelagians . that it is enough to him that none of the ●uthors named by me spake against it . answ . the question of the hieracites was raised in epip●anius his time , which did lead to speak of infants baptism , and ye● epiphanius allegeth not in●ants baptism against them , though it had been for his purpose . . sure eusebius that writes the ec●lesiastical story , and such as wrote the history of the church , had occasion to mention it is ●hey do the b●ptism of persons of age , he use of the lo●ds supper , the meetings of christians , the orders of the church , the ordinations o● bishops and other things and would it i● were so man●f●st as mr. m. said it was . ● . it may be they spake not against it ▪ because there was ●o question about it . bu● it is l●kely there was no question about it , because there was in the first ages no practise of it , or very obscure . for as soon as it began , tertullian put in some exc●ptions against it and after him nazianzen . . if the fathers afore po●●gius arose , did not speak clearly of original sin , then it is likely the pa●●ages in origen on levit. rom. luk. were nor his , sith they speak clearly of the traduction of original sin and that speech of v●ssius hist pel. l ▪ ●art● th . p. . is right ; for who can at this day discern what passages were the brats of origen or his paraphrasts ? hee adds . . if any thing were brought out of ignatius , you would tell mee , that you did not know ignatius when you see him . answ. . though ignatius epistles be very doubtfull , yet i incline to think some of them to be his which we have , and that genuine passages may be discerned from spurious . . if any p●ssage , though spurious , were to be found in him for infant baptism , paedobaptists would not stick to produce it , who make no conscience to allege the words falsly ascribed to justin martyr in the book of questions and answers to the orthodox , and stick not to maintain the allegation of it , as his , th●ugh it mention origen , whom dr. homes imagins justin martyr might hear of , though he died by his confession anno . and origen wa● not born till about . as the passages in his animado ▪ on my exercit. p , , . compared do shew . besides the allegation of the book of ecclesiastical hierarchy , as dionysius the areopogites , the questions ad ●ntiochum , as athana●●us his shew , that neither this authour nor other pae●obaptists are ashamed to allege bastard writings , which say any thing for infant baptism . concerning clemens alexandrinus he tels me defence p. . you desire to know what clemens alexandrinus saith ( which is not true ) why sure he had none but gre●t infants to be his schollers ( i conceive he means p●ofessed pagan infidels , but i t●ink this not true , sith in his writings he directs christians , and opposeth heretiques ) if you ( who pretend to bee acquainted familiarly ( which is very false ) with the secrets of antiquity ) be acquainted with him you 'l know what i mean : he desired ( as it is likely more greek fathers who were converted from paganism did ) to set forth religion in such a way , as might move other pagans to come and confess the christian saith , that so they might bee added to the church by baptism , in such a way as was proper to the baptising of grown men . which is true , and confirms my presumption that when he speaks of baptism , as he doth lib. . paedag . c . and elsewhere , he would have mentioned infant baptism and its benefit to the same end , if it had been in his time in use , as mr. m. in his sermon said . concerning athanas●us he speaks thus , what say you to that passage in athanasius ? where he is shewing how wee are buried with christ in ●aptism , and rise again ; he sayes the dipping of the infant quite under water thrice , and raising of it up again , doth signifie the death of christ and his resurrection upon the third day , athan. dicta & interpretatio script . q . is not that testimony plain ? answ. it is : but wh●se is it ? is not that book one of those suppositi●ious writing in the d . tome of athanasius works , of which scultetus medul patrum part . . l. c. . saith , qu dam nullo judicio videntur con cripta quae se satis produn ? among which also are the quaestions to antiochus , out of which mr. m. or ●is friend pag. , . cite two testimonies , on● out of quaest ▪ and another quaest ▪ and saith , the wo●ds are safe and sound buil● on a ●os●el ground , owned by all the reformed churches ▪ which make infants of believers baptised to enter into the kingdome of heaven , excluding the unbaptized , which hitherto hath b●●n termed popery . nor is hee excused ●rom abusing readers with these bastard writings , by saying , the words following may be erroneous , and yet written by athanasiu● ▪ when the words following are part of the answer , which is erroneous , and they are so connex that they must bee the same authors . as for the words , how do you prove what you allege out of tertullian and gregory nazianzen , and tha● i make this a plea for my self ▪ that my allegations may gain a favourable construction , that my proofs taken out of antiquity do as strongly prove the point in hand , as proofs are usually taken in such matters , no whit excuseth him , sith my proofs are from writings not suspected , his are from treatises judged by many of each tide to he supposititious , mine from passages not excepted against , as his are , and therefore my wondering ceaseth not : and the silence of these , together with epiphanius his not urging infant baptism against hieracites ; yeeld a strong presump●ion of the rarity of infant baptism then , though from thence the non usage bee not syllogistically concluded . and for the words hee brings out of epiphanius , hee might call baptism the great circumcision , yet reject infan● baptism ( though i said not he did , but that it's like●● it was not so manifest as mr. m. said ) as he might call pre●byters priests , and deacons levites , and yet not tye presbytery or deaconship to a tribe , and the age in which each sort ministred in the temple of the jews . i add , that the words cited out of the supposed athanasius prove dipping under water then the usual way of baptism . what dr. homes brings animadv . on my exercit. pag. . out of clemens alexandrinus strom. l. . pag . serves not his turn , but is rather against him , for it mentions onely one baptism of believers . and the same may be s●id of what he brings out of epiphanius his d . book ●om . . contra haeres . . pag. . in which hee makes the perfect circumcision not to be onely of men in the time of their imbecility , but of men and women , all the people of christians indeed , which omits if not excludes infants . ly . saith mr. m or his friend , def . pag. . you reason from the continuance of the questions put to persons when they were to be baptized , and answered by them : which i think because we must conceive children were not able to return an answer to them , thereby you would infer they were not baptized· but i answer , when the gospel was fi●st declared into the world , such as being of age were first taught were then baptized , acts . . & acts . , . after that time such as were taught are said to be catechized : for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . the catechism leads men to faith , saith clemens alexandrinus paedag. when such were prepared and made fit to bee baptized , certain questions were propounded to them concerning their faith in christ , their resolution to forsake the devil , &c. which are related by many of the ancients : when those of age afterwards brought their children to baptism , these questions were likewise out to them ( though of themselves they were not able to make answer to them ) but how warrantably , i will not go about to prove ; yet that they were used at infants bap●ism ▪ as well as at the baptism of such as were at age , it appears by balsamon in can. . conc. neocaesar . aug. ep. ad januarium , &c. to all which questions at childrens bap●ism , such as un●ertook their education made answer on their b●half . therefore you cannot by these questions infer that children were not baptized , seeing these authors certifie that questions were put to them , and also tell us who answered for them . answ. 't is true i cannot , nor did i ever intend to prove that children were not baptized in the third age , but the putting the questions to infants to answer , shews that at first none were baptized but such as could answer to them : and sith this was but a ridiculous thing , which this author will not go about to prove to have been done warrantably , to put questions to infants to answer , doubtless it came not from the apostles or apostolical men , who would never have appointed so frivolous a thing ▪ but as this author doth very honestly confess , they baptized such as were taught and catechized , and as he well notes out of clemens alexandrinus , catechism leads men to faith , and that to baptism . and this undeniably proves , as ludovicus vives truly gathered , tom . in august de civit . dei c. . l . tom . . that at first none was baptized till he could ask for it and answer to the questions , which custome he saith he hath heard continued in some cities of ●taly . it is likely those of the greeks about cal●bria● ▪ and so far as i can yet by search discern , this continued the first and second age , to baptize onely persons of age . in the third age , infant baptism with many other corruptions began , and then to keep a mimical shew of the old manner of a●swering the qu●stions , some made answer in the infants name ; which being after objected to augustin , he answers epist. . that the answerer did not speak falsly , when he said the infant did believe , because he had the sacrament of faith : which was indeed no answer , sith the answer was made afore the sacrament , and the sacrament could not make him a believer who was not . now this answer was not to engage them to undertake their education , as this autho● seems to imply , but to assert they did believe afore they were baptized , it being originally the right use of that rite , to baptize none but those who were first believers , till the supersti●ious conceit of an infants perishi●g without baptism first brought it in , as necessary in case of apparent danger of imminent death , and no otherwise ; as those many reliques of antiquity in the speeches of tertullian , nazianzen , and others shew ; besi●es the narrations of baptizing he catechized at solemn times , and the not baptizing of children of believers till they came to age , the inten● of b●ptizing austin when in you●h he was sick , but putting it off when recovered . but after his time , the necessity of it being so vehemently pressed by him , and urged against pelagians , infant baptism in process of time quite swallowed up true baptism , and that which this author here ingenuo●sly confesseth was the primitive use , is now cried down as i● it were an innovation and an heresie . so monstrously hath the ignorance and intemperate speeches of fathers , school-men and others , and the violence and mistakes of luther , calvin , and others , perverted the doctrine of baptism , and oppressed those that have sought to reform it , though if there were no more to be said for them then what here this author , whether mr. marshal or dr. young confesseth , it were enough to sati●fi● men that were willing to be satisfied , that infant baptism was not at fi●st when the gospel went first abroad into the world , and yet th●n doubtless believers had infants ; but that afterwards men brought their children to baptism , when ●orrupt opinions of its necessity and the giving grace by i● were ●eceived , and to al●ay the extream bit●er and unreasonable heat of spirit , which is in the clamarous paedobaptists of our days . but i go on . mr. m. or his friend tels mee , thirdly ▪ you conceive because many children born of christian parents were not baptised when they were young , therefore it was not their custome to baptise infants . for the making good hereof , you bring forth instances of constantin● the great , greg ▪ nazianzen , and chrysostom . afore he speaks of these instances , hee sets down some known reasons , some imagined , why some deferred among the ancients their own baptism ; and he thinks they might upon the like reasons defer their childrens . answ. . that they did defer their childrens baptism confirms my opinion , that it was not ordinary in the greek church to baptize infants . . that if they did defer it upon the reasons imagined by him , then they thought it not necessary to be done in infancy , as paedobaptists do now , chiefly mr. baxter , plain script . proof part . . ch who will have infants baptised immediately , as soon as ever they are disciples ; which by his grounds is at the first instant of their birth , or afore . . that very reason why some deferred baptism to old age to wit the doing away sin , was indeed the very reason of their baptizing infants and nazianzens confutation , telling some that all times were fit for baptism , seeing no time was free from death , shews how ill mr m. chose that passage to put in the title page of his book , unles● he would have readers to baptize upon that opinion , as if thereby they could work out their salvation . . all this discourse about the various reason of mens deferring their own baptism , is quite besides the point about parents deferring their infants baptism , which not to have been upon any of those imagined reasons , but because they thought it not necessary , nor did practise it but in case of apparent danger of imminent death to the infant , will appear by weighing his answer to my instances . ●o that of constantines being not baptized in infancy , though helena his mother were a christian it is said ; . that it appears not that constantines parents were in his infancy become christians . . himself was also an unbeliever many years . to which i reply though it be not apparent that constantius or helena were christians in the infancy of christians , yet those historians that do conceive they were , and yet it being agreed he was not then baptized , o●acitely yeeld ▪ that it was not unusual for the children of believers to be unbaptized till they came to age . dr. homes tels me that i have ill urged constantin a latin , for an instance that baptism of infants was not ordinary in the greek church ▪ but i think otherwise since constantin lived and died in the greek church , and therefore fitly mentione● among them . the next mentioned by me is gregory nazianzen , the son of a christian bishop , and brought up long by him , was not baptized till hee came to be a youth . to this saith mr. m or his friend how do you prove he was the son of a christian bishop ▪ his father was once in the hyp●istarian errour , whether he were converted before gregory was bo●ni● is not exprest . when hee was young he was b●ed at a●●ens under heathens , to which it 's not likely his father would send him if a christian , and why he was not baptised as soon as he was converted to christianity i conjecture the reason was that he might the better prepare himself to receive baptism . answ. i did little imagin that this author would have so far gratified the papists , as to joyn with baronius and other romanists , by shifts to avoid the evidence of this instance , which protestants urge to prove bishops to have then married and begot children after marriage . to his question , i prove him to have been a bishop by the same words of gregory nazianzen himself in the verse of his life ; by which chamier paustrat . cath. tom . . l. . c. . § . . dr. hall honour of the married clergy d . book sect. . and others , prove gregory nazianzen to have been begotten of his father being a bishop , where he brings in his father speaking to perswade him to help him in his charge , in these words , as dr. hall turns them into english out of greek , the years of thy age are not so many as of my priesthood which how to free from baronius his devices of an byperbole , and the inconsistency with the other passages of his fathers baptism , and his study at athens , and seeing julian there , the reader may see in chamier ubi suprà at large . where and in dr. hall he may find , that his mother was also a pious christian when hee was born , and that she begged him of god. and the century writers of magd. say cent . c. . she was born of pious and holy progenitours . and though he travailed abroad , suppose at . years of age , yet was he long brought up by his parents , especially in that time in which he was to have been baptized , if the baptism of infants had been then ordinary : yet was hee not baptized ( as this author confesseth ) till he was of age , after he returned to his father , who it is not likely did send him to be trained up under infidels , however hee might light on their acquaintance and hear them . as for the reason of deferring his baptism , it is in vain to enquire into another cause , then that which gregory nazianzen himself in his th . oration of holy baptism gives , when hee adviseth to baptize infants in case of apparent danger of imminent death , but out of that case to defer it . and this appears to have been the genuine reason , and the practise accordingly in that ( as gregorius presbyter relates in his life ) when sailing to athens a storm arose , so that his life was in apparent danger , he was afraid of dying unbaptised , and resolved to be baptised . the other reason assigned by mr m or his friend , is frivolous ; for though the better to prepare himself to receive baptism , might be the reason of his deferring it so long as he did when he came to age , yet it could not be a reason of his parents deferring it , or of his in infancy . so that notwithstanding these vain shifts of this author , wherein he joyns with the papists , who use the like devices to avoin this testimony urged by protestants to prove the marriage of bishops then , and is refuted by them , yet this one instance is an evident proof , that in the greek church baptism of infants was not ordinary in the fourth century , but used perhaps extraordinarily in case of apparent danger of imminent death . there is the less need of insisting on the instance of chrysostome his birth of christian parents ▪ and educated and baptised at age by miletius , sith that of nazianzen 〈◊〉 pregnant . 't is true i did allege it as grotius 〈◊〉 saying , whom i found counted for a learned man by spanheimius and many others , and i might well make use of him , as protestants sometimes do of papists that are corrupt in point of antiquity . if dr. young were the author of the first part of mr. ms. defence , and of the latin book of the lords day , published in the year . under the name of theophilus p●ylokyriaces loncardiensis , hee himself cites baronius for the lords day in the very title page of his book . what grotius was in his life and studies , i leave for those who knew him to judge ; his books though in many things corrupt , i might be allowed to make use of , as of other learned men with judgement . in this thing i did think i might the more securely take his word , because in the same place annot. in matth. c. ● . . hee declared hee was for infant baptism ; nor do i think it was without some reason which he affirmed , though my time and library yeeld mee not the advantage of making search into this thing . it is enough that it is supposed by learned men probable , which would not bee if it were not then ordinary , that the children of christian parents were baptized after they had themselves been believers . which i● plain by the resolution of the synod of neocaesar●a , elder then the first nicene , which determined ; that a woman with child might be baptized , because the baptism reached not to the fruit of her womb , because in the confession made in baptism , each ones free choise is shewed . for if in the confession in baptism each ones free choise is shewed , then infants were not ordinarily baptized , who could shew no free choise in confession . how this is vindicated from the shifts of mr. m or his friend , may be seen in my apology sect . . p. , . which i think needless to repeat . and for grotius his saying , tha● in every age many of the greeks unto this day , keep the custome of deferring the baptism of little ones , till they could themselves make a confession of their saith , may be true , if either those in italy mentioned by ludov. vives comment in aug. l. . de civit . dei , c. . were greeks , as it is likely in calabria , where are greek churches as i remember brerewood shews in his enquiries of religion , or the georgians children , or the christians children of cholcos we●e greeks ; o● whom heylin in his geography in the description of armenia , out of brerewood , alexand. rosse in his censure of religio medici , &c say ▪ they are not baptized till they be . years old . nor need the anabaptists yet to blush , for all mr. ms. or his friends , or dr homes , or dr. hammonds , or mr. craggs allegations , in saying that the an●ients , especially the greek church , rejected the baptism of infants for many hundred years . for there is no evidence produced for infant baptism in the greek church till nazianzens time , who flourished saith dr. hammond about the year of christ . and died in the year . which is above . years , and hee disswades it except in case of apparent danger of imminent death , and saith some are kep● from baptism by reason of infancy , and as mr. m p. . of his defence saith , all times were fit for baptism , seeing no time was free from death , intimates baptism not fit for some time , except in that case , which may be gathered to have been the onely reason of infant baptism , from what is s●id before of the story of hi● own baptism ; and therefore i doubt not to conclude ▪ that infant baptism was not so ancient in the greek church as i● by mr. m. and others pretended , and as now it is taught by him and others , is a late innovation . sect . lxxxxi . the testimonies of tertullian for infant baptism , and dr. hammonds interpretation of chap. . de anima , are examined with cor. . . i proceed to review the proofs from the latin fathers for infant baptism . mr. cr. brings up tertullian in the fron● , whom he reckons at the end of the second century , others at the beginning of the third , about . or less years after john the apostle , in which short tract of time , the apostolical practise of infant baptism could neither bee clouded , nor forgotten . neither would he have commended his private opinion as more profitable , that the baptism of some infants for some respects should ●e deferred , but have called it down , as an innovation , if the practise of it had not been as transparent to every mans apprehension as if it had been writ with the sun beams . that infant baptism was in practise in tertullians days , it appears by this question lib. de bapt . c. ● . quid festinat innocens aetas ad remissionem peccatorum ? why does innocent age ( meaning children in their infancy ) make hast for remission of sins ? meaning baptism ; which is a clear case , whatsoever semi-socinian grotius say to the contrary . that tertullian was for infant baptism himself appears , that in his book de animà cap. . he presses it , when the child is in danger of death , and gives his reason lib. de bapt . cap. . praescribitur nemini fine baptismo competere salutem , it is prescribed that salvation is to none without baptism . answ. . that tertullian might not be mistaken , or that the practise of infant baptism could not be clouded or forgotten , is said by mr. cragge inconsiderately ; 〈◊〉 afore tertullians time the great differences about keeping easter between polycrates bishop of ephesus , where it 's said , john lived much and died ; and victor of rome , who pretended tradition from peter , the mistake of ●renaus about christs age , with sundry others . . that tertullian would have called it down as an innovation , if the practise of it had not been as transparent to every mans apprehension as if it had been writ with the sun beams , is a confident speech , but of no credit with those who know tertullian hath not called down , the anointing the baptized , giving milk and honey , using the sign of the cross , &c. which yet are undoubted innovations . . it is granted that infant baptism was used in his time , but it is withal true , that hee disswaded it or did call it down as an innovation , except in case of danger of death , and that by sundry reasons ; which if hee had taken ken infant baptism to bee from the apostles , hee would not have done . . the allowing of it in that case arose ( as mr. craggs quotations shew ) from the errour of the necessity of it to salvation . but dr. hammond saith further . tertullian a man of great learning , and a diligent observer and recorder of the customs and practises of the most ancient church , lib. de animâ c. . affirms it from the apostle , ex sanctificato alterutro sexu sanctos procreari ; that when either parent is sanctified or believer , i. e. baptized , the children that are born from them are holy , and this , tam ex seminis praerogativâ , quàm ex institutionis disciplinâ , both by praerogative of their seed , and by the discipline of the institution , i. e. ( as hath been shewed ) by baptism ; adding from the same apostle that delivered those words cor. . . that his meaning was that the children of believers should be understood to be designati sanctitatis ac per hoc salutis , and evidencing what he means thereby , by the following words , of christs definition joh . unless a man be born of water and of the spirit , he shall not enter into the kingdom of god , i. e. non erit sanctus , shall not be holy ; where bap●ism is manifestly the thing by which these children are said to attain that sanctity . and more hee adds in the beginning of the next chapter to the same purpose . and so he is a comp●tent witness for the beginning of that third age . and a little before , in the middle of the first century st. paul delivered these words ; now are your children holy , i. e. your children new born ( as appears by the context and tertullian ) are sanctified as that signifies baptized , in the stile of the new testament and the ancient church . and ch . sect . . st. paul cor. . . speaking of the believers children , he saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but now are they holy , i. e. it is the present practise of the church ( that apostolical church in st. pauls time ) to admit to baptism the infant children of parents , of whom one is christian , though not of others . that this is the meaning of [ holy ] is there made evident , as by other arguments , so by this , that the ancient fathers who knew the sacred dialect call baptism sanctification , eum qui natus est baptizandum & sanctificandum , in cyprian , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to bee sanctified when they have no feeling of it , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , let him be sanctified from the infancy , i. e. baptized then in gregory nazianzen . to which testimonies , and the rest which is there produced of the agreement of the jewish stile ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sanctifications for baptisms , to which agrees macarius saying of the jewish baptism , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it sanctifies the flesh , hom . . p. . ) because the main difficulty of the interpretation consists herein , i shall now add more , one very ancient before any of these ( within less then an . years after the death of st. john ) tertullian de animâ c. . where speaking of infants and saying ex sanctifica●o alterutro sexu sanctos procreari ; that when either the father or mother is sanctified ( i. e. received as a believer by baptism in the church , the children are holy , &c ( clear evidences of the notion of the word ) this he there proves by these very words of this apostle , caeterum , inquit , immundi nascuntur , else ( so caeterum in tertullians stile is known to be put for alioqui , or the greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) were your children unclean ; adding instead of these other words [ but now are they holy ] quasi designatos tamen sanctitatis & per hoc etiam salutis , intelligi volens fidelium filios , hereby willing that wee should understand that the children of believers are the designed or the sealed of holiness ( in the sense , i conceive wherein they that are baptized , are by the ancients frequently said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to be sealed ) and thereby of salvation also : and all this , saith he , thus urged by the apostle , ut hujus spei pignora matrimoniis quae retinenda censuerat , patrocinacerentur , that this hope might be a pledge to engage the believing wife or husband not to part from the unbeliever . and hee yet further adds ( still to the confirming of this interpretation ) alioqui meminerat dominicae definitionis , nisi qui nascatur ex aqua & spiritu , non intro●bit in regnum dei , i. e. non erit sanctus . otherwise ( or if this argument of the apostle had not been sufficient ) he would have mentioned the definition of christ , that unless one be born of water and the spirit ( i. e. baptized ) he shall not enter into the ●ingdome of god , i. e. shall not be holy ; shewing still of what holiness he understands the apostles speech , that which the child of the believer is made partaker of by baptism ; concludi●g , ita omnis anima usque eo in adam censetur donec in christo recenseatur , tamdiu immunda , quamdiu recenseatur . every soul is so long inrolled in adam , till it bee anew in christ , and is so long unclean till it be thus anew inrolled ; which as it supposeth every child of adam to bee impure , till it bee thus by baptism made a child of gods , a memb●r of christ , so it gives a full account of that uncleanness , and that holiness of which the apostle speaks ; the former the state of a child of adam unbaptized , the later of him that by baptism is initiated into christ. and p. . hee saith , he found this passage of tertullian ch . . de animá perfectly to accord to his interpretation of cor. . . for which reason ( though i at first intended onely here to examine the passage of tertullian c. . de animâ ) i conceive needfull to examine what dr. hammond hath said in his defence against me , ch . , . about both places , and i doubt not but that it will be made appear by me , that he hath not avoided by his defence the exceptions i brought against his interpretation of cor. . . nor interpreted the apostle right , nor tertullian , nor that they do , as he speaks , perfectly accord , to which i now address my self . . he omits the making good of his paraphrase of the apostles words cor. . , , . except onely those words [ else were your children unclean , but now they are holy ] supposing it unnecessary if the interpretation of the last words appear to be this [ but now are infant children partakers of the priviledge of baptism ] which i acknowledge were true , if he could make good this interpretation without making good the paraphrase of the rest . but there being a manifest coherence of all together , and a plain argumentative consequence implied v. . of the later part from the former , if the interpretation of the later part will not consist with the words going before , nor a good coherence and consequence in his sense making good the rest of his paraphrase , it is necessary he should make good , at least that which if it be not made good against my exceptions , the interpretation of the last clause will not stand . now i conceive there are in my exceptions , most if not all those things , which i urged against his paraphrase and interpretation , which do overthrow it , sith there would be either want of sense , coherence , or consequence in the apostles speech , if dr. hammonds exposition were received , which dr. hammond hath not acquitted it from in his defence . one main thing on which the hinge of his paraphrase and interpretation turnes , is , that the sanctification and holiness there is derived from the faith of the one party , and not on the conjugal relation ; and therefore the term [ believer ] which is not in the text ) is put by him in his paraphrase , and the terms [ husband and wife ] omitted , which the apostle puts down with emphasis . i presume the reader that reads my exceptions from p. . to . will judge the doctors excuse not sufficient , he gives for not answering them more fully , when he assures me it were easie fully to answer them p. ● . but does not , especially in this point on which the controversie between us depends , and therefore not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the dr. terms it . i think the dr. hath made a more immoderate excursion in his heaping up testimonies out of the fathers , in his standing so much on the denial of an enallage , and the force of the preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . but i resolve to follow him , and hope to overtake him in long running , though his pen and press be quicker in dispatch then mine . the first thing the dr. attempts is , to prove out of the fathers , that the term [ holy cor. . . ] is as much as [ partakers of baptism ] first saith he , the ancient fathers who knew the sacred dialect , call baptism sanctification , and cyprian and nazianzen are cited . to which i answer , . the word of the apostle is [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] the adjective [ holy ] which notes a state of discrimination from the unclean , not [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sanctified ] a participle connoting the action of the sanctifier , as well as the state of the sanctified , and therefore may import baptism , and not the other ; now the two fathers the dr. cites with gregory nyssen after , use not the term [ holy ] but sanctified , and therefore were it granted that they used [ sanctified ] for baptized , yet this proves not they or the apostle to have used [ holy ] for baptized . . i think the fathers he cites , did not in those passages he cites call baptisme sanctification , though they took the person baptized to be sanctified by it . my reasons are from their words . for when cyprian saith [ him who is born to be baptized and sanctified ] he seems to mee to distinguish , not to confound baptism and sanctification ; and when nazianzen in the place quoted useth this phrase , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i think it is ineptly rendered by the dr. p. . by this means they may be baptized souls and bodies : sure the baptism of water doth not touch the soul : and therefore nazianzen is to be so interpreted as though he included baptizing in the phrase of sanctifying as the means of it , ye● he doth not confound them , or call baptism sanctification . the like i imagin might be said of gregory nyssen , if i had his book , whose words it 's likely if the dr. had set down more fully , as hee doth in others , the impertinency of his allegation would have appeared . as for the jewish stile of sanctifications for baptisms ▪ it will be to be considered after . macarius his saying , that the jewish baptism sanctifies the flesh , is not a calling baptism sanctification . but the dr. stands most on tertullian , in which he takes i● , that [ holy ] is used as he conceives paul to use it cor. . for [ partakers of baptism ] so he expounds , designatos sanctitatis , the designed or sealed of holiness , in the sense he conceives , wherein they that are baptised are by the ancients frequently said to be sealed and p. . designati sanctitatis , sure must signifie that they are initiated into christ by the christian right , or sign , or ceremony of baptism , as those which had the heath●nish ceremonies used upon them , were candidati daemoniorum , candidates of the devil in the former , thus early admitted and initiated into their sacra but neither do i conceive the apostle to have used [ holy ] for holiness by baptism , nor that tertullian doth mean that which the dr. would have him , nor do the apostle and tertullian perfectly accord twice in that chapter doth tertullian use the term [ holy ] once [ holiness ] once [ sanctified . ] the fi●st passage is thus . hinc enim & apostolus ex sanctificato alterutro sexu sanctos procreari ait , tàm ex seminis praerogativa , quàm ex institutionis disciplina . from hence the apostle also saith , holy ones to be procreated from either sex , sanctified as well by prerogative of seed , as by discipline of institution . by either father or mother sanctified the dr. co●ceives meant , when either the father or mother is received as a believer by baptism into the church , by [ holy ] baptized , for he makes the notion of [ holy ] in those words of tertullian to be the same with designatos sanctitatis , which he interprets by sealed , that is baptised in the ancients language . pag. . [ holy ] appears to bee this [ but now are your infant children partakers of the priviledge of baptism . ] but that tertullian mean by [ sanctified , baptised ] is not proved by the dr. and his paraphrase makes it in cor. . . to import being converted to the faith ; and so tertullian ad uxorem l. . explains what he means by [ sanctified ] gained by the wise to the faith . i deny not that hee made baptism a means of that sanctification , but he doth not call ( as the dr. saith ) baptism sanctification , but the whole fact of gods grace , as hee saith , dei gratia illud sanctificat quod invenit , by teaching and inlightning the person sanctified . yet herein tertullian and the dr. accord not with the apostle , for the apostle supposeth cor. . . the person said to be sanctified still an unbeliever , otherwise his reason had been nothing to confirm the resolution v. , . which was the believing yoke fellow might live still with the unbeliever , for the unbelieving husband , that is the husband continuing an unbeliever is sanctified ; but this cannot bee meant either of conversion to the faith or baptism , for then he should be a believer when hee is said to bee sanctified , so that it is plain neither tertullians expression concurs with the d●ctors notion , not do the dr. and tertullian agree with paul. the other words sanctos procreari , sith he restrains to infants , the sanctity pag. . hath this sense ; the infants are procreated holy , that is baptized , for thus he speaks ; the apostle in that place makes the sanctification or bap●ism of the children a benefit of the believing parents cohabiting with the unbeliever . but herein neither doth tertullian or the dr. accord with paul , for hee makes not the holiness of the children to be the benefit of the parents faith , but of their conjugal relation , nor doth the dr. accord with tertullian . for the holiness there meant by tertullian , is not meant onely of the time of infancy . . because he saith it to be as well , ex institutionis disciplinâ , as ex seminis praerogativa . where ex seminis prerogativa the dr. agrees p. . to be in that he is not so polluted by their idolatrous ceremonies , and so is in some degree holy , not federal holiness , as mr. m. pag. . would the whole scope shewing that to be the meaning , that they are not so polluted as heathens children . now ex institutionis disciplina , the dr. would have have p ● . meant the doctrine of baptism instituted by christ in his church ; for by this it is that baptism was allowed to those that were ex alterutro sexu sanctificato procreati , born of parents of which either of them was christian. thus in his book de bapt . c. . he uses a like phrase , tingi disciplina religionis , to be sprinkled with the discipline of religion , meaning evidently being baptised . where the dr. by the way doth ill render tingi by sprinkled , no grammarian doth so render it , nor doth tertullian so mean it , as in the place may be observed . but to the thing . this cannot be the meaning of tertullian in that place . . the words are these , ut opinor autem aliud est asperg● vel interci●i violentià maris aliud tingi disciplina religionis . as i think it is one thing to be sprinkled or intercepted with the violence of the sea , as peter was when against his will he was in the sea , ano●her thing to be baptised with the discipline of religion , that is , out of a willing yeilding to baptism by the learning of religion , that is , knowledge and profession of faith which religion prompts to , meaning plainly not the doctrine or command of christ , but the learning or discipline of his own heart , in the sense that tertullian useth after , disciplina verecundiae & modestiae . and that sense which i give the scope leads to , which is to shew neither the apostles being dashed with the waves when the ship was almost covered , nor peters being almost drowned , was christian baptism , because it was not out of a voluntary disposition from that discipline of religion which doth dispose to it , but the violence of the sea . . tertullian could not mean as the dr. would , sith there is no such institution of christ either expressed by the evangelists , or by tertullian . the evangelists express no title to baptism , but by the persons own faith or discipleship who is to be baptised , as is proved review part . sect . . and tertullian in his book of baptism a little after the words cited by the dr. c. . expresseth the institution of baptism thus ; lex enim tingendi imposita est & forma praescriptae , i●e ( inquit ) docete nationes , tingentos eas in nomen patri● & filii & spiritus sancti . huic legi collata definitio illa : nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua & spiritu non intrabit in regnum coelorum : obstrinxi● fidem ad baptismi necessitatem . itaqae omnes exinde credentes tingebantur . and after , nam & prius est pr●dicare , posterius tingere , and in the th . chapter gives his reasons against the hastening the ba●tism of infants , as being not necessary , which if he had acknowle●ged such an institution , as the dr. imagins , he could not have said , and directs according to the institution ▪ let them come when they grow up , when they learn , when they are taught wherefore they come , let them hee made christians when they can know christ ; and af●er prescribes , how they should go to baptism , with prayer , fasting , kneeling , confessing of sins ; and in his book of repentance , cals baptism the sealing of repentance , no where is any such institution of infants baptism from the faith of one parent ; and therefore i conclude , ex institutionis disciplina , is not meant as dr. hammond conceives . on the other side i conceive that he means by [ sanctos procreari ] real holiness future , and by ex institutionis disciplina , learning of the doctrine or institution of christ. that the holiness is real saving holiness , is gathered first from the joyning together , designati sanctitatis ac per hoc etiam salutis , which plainly shews , that the holiness meant is that by which is salvation . . this is confirmed , in that it is made the effect of being born by water and the spirit . . shall enter into the kingdome of heaven , is expounded by sanctus , holy . . it is opposed to that uncleanness which they had in adam , and it is expressed to bee in christ , which must needs bee a real saving holiness . . if it bee that which is by baptism , then it is not baptism it self , as the dr. expounds it , but a consequent on it , which is no other then saving holiness . . this is proved from the expression of designatos sanctitatis ac per hoc salutis ; this is confessed by the dr. to express the same with procreari sanctos ex institutionis disciplina , but designatos sanctitatis hath the sense of designed to be holy , that is , a believer by education , and so saved . i will set down the words of a letter of my learned and much honoured friend and quondam scholler dr. wilkins , warden of wadham colledge in oxford , who at my request imployed a friend to enquire into the sense of this passage of tertullian , and thus wrote to me : as for that phrase , designatos sanctitatis & salutis , though this reading be approved by pamelius , and de la cerda in their editions , yet 't is corrected by johannes a wouwer , by that famous manuscript copy of fulvius ursinus , now in the vatican , which hath it designatos sanctitati . which reading is now generally received as the most genuine , as may appear by rigaltius and georgius ambianus in his last and best edition of tertullian at paris . and the most proper sense of this phrase must be , such as are designed by their parents to a religious education , which is likewise signified by that other expression ex instituionis disciplina . so that designatos sanctitati ac per hec etiam saluti , plainly expresseth , that whereas the pagan idolaters did dedicate and consecrate their children to devils , and thereby made them unclean , the children of the believer were brought into the world holy , both in that they were free from such pollution , and also by prayer , vow , or resolution designed or intended to be made holy by the disciplin of christian institution , and so to be saved , or to enter into the kingdome of heaven , by faith in christ. . this sense is confirmed by the words [ hujus spei pignora , the pledges of this hope ] which shew that the holiness and salvation meant in the words before , was a thing not then existent at the childrens birth , but intended and hoped for at age , upon endeavours used by the believing parent . . this interpretation of designatos sanctitatis , or sanctitati , is confirmed by the expressions of hierome , epist. . to paulinus , where he saith , of thy second problem tertullian hath discoursed in his books of monogamy , affirming the children of believers to be called holy , because they were as it were candidati fidei , candidates of faith , and not polluted with any of the filth of idolatry . which phrase expresseth the same with designatos sanctitati , and alludes to those who in rome stood for offices in white , and notes that the infants were as it were in expectation of being believers , and baptized , quod veluti ambiunt & expectant baptismum , as erasmus in his note on hierom , epist. . to paulinus , or designed , that is intended to be holy by the parents , that is to be bred up to profess the faith , and so to be baptized . to this saith dr. hammond . . this of tertullian is not the place that s. hierom refers to , but some other in his books de monogamia , that one book which we now have under that title affording us no such discourse on that subject as s. hierom mentions . answ. . it is more probable that this is the place hierom meant , the expressions so agreeing and the matter , and that hierom writing in hast mistook the the title of the book , and the term candidatos used in the chapter before for designatos . . however , whether it were so or otherwise , the words cited by hierom being to the same purpose will fitly explain the other . dly . ( saith dr. hammond ) all that s. hierom cites out of that ( not this ) place of tertullian is very reconcilable with what tertullian saith in this place , and with his opinion that the infants of christians were baptized ; for , sai●h he , they were quasi candidati fidei , as it were candidates of faith . candidates were they that stood for any office , qui candidâ sumptâ veste consulatum , praturam , &c. postulabant , who putting on white garments sued for any office ; and so candidates of faith , they that sue for this condition in the church of god , that of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 believers , to which by baptism they are assumed , and accordingly were to be brought to the font , like such candidates , in white garments as they that were to be sanctified ; i. e. baptized , among the jews exod. . . were also to wash their cloathes or put on clean garments . answ. 't is true both places of tertullian are very reconcilable , but not dr. hammonds interpretation of designatos sanctitatis or sanctitati with candidatos fidei . for dr. hammonds designatos is as much baptized , but candidatos notes onely a future thing in expectation , and candidatos fidei answering to designatos sanctitatis or sanctitati shews the holiness to be saith , and that tending to salvation , not the bare title of a believer by baptism , but such a faith as saves effectually ac per hoc etiam salutis , which puts it out of doubt , that a real holiness though in intention and expectation onely , and a real saving faith though future , is meant by tertullian in both expressions , which is not avoided by the doctors answer . again ( saith the dr. ) when he saith of them that they were holy as the vessels of the temple were holy , though they had no sense , this is a clear laying of a ground , whereby children may be deemed capable of this relative holiness , which is to be had by baptism , though as yet they are not capable ( for want of understanding ) of inherent holiness . answ. 't is true hierom expresseth another way of holiness which infants might have without understanding , but that this should be by baptism he doth not intimate . but if he did , yet he doth not make it the meaning of tertullians candidatos fidei , and therefore serves not his turn to prove that by holiness tertullian meant baptism . yea , this very thing is against it , sith it is added as another way of sanctity then that he first mentioned , as the words simulque considera do seem to me to intimate ; and therefore candidatos fidei and designatos sanctitatis or sanctitati is not partakers of baptism in tertullian , as the dr. would have it . lastly ( saith the dr. ) when he mentions it as an idiom of scripture to call them holy , who are clensed , purified , expiated , speaking of those legal lustrations or purifications , this gives an account of st. pauls using the word in the christian church for the christian lustration , purification , expiation , i. e. for baptism . answ. . it gives but a lame account till it be proved st. paul useth holy for baptized . . though hierom do say the scripture names holy for clean , purified , and expiated ; yet this doth not prove he conceived the scripture puts holy for christian baptism . yet again saith the dr. and by the way it appears by st. hierom , that he useth promiscuously sancti and sanctificati , and so that gives us authority to interpret [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] in the end of the verse , in the same sense in which [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is used in the beginning for those that are brought and received to baptism . all which are far enough from serving any of mr. t. his interests , and might have inclined him to have omitted that testimony of st. hieroms , if he had more maturely considered of it . answ. how this testimony serves my turn upon more mature consideration of it ▪ is shewed . it is true sancti and sanctificati are used of the same persons , yet they are not the same ; as calidum and calefactum may be said of the same wood , yet are not the same , sith fire may be said to be hot , but not heated ▪ and god may be said to be holy , but not sanctified . but the dr. f●rge●s himself when he would have sanctified and holy , cor. . . to be interpreted in the same sense . for then when it is said the unbeliever hath been sanctified , that is , brought to the faith by the wives counsel and example , it should be said of the infant children that they are in the same sense holy , that is , converted to the faith . yet further saith the dr. nay . i must add , that mr. t. his rendring of candidati and designati sanctitatis and candidati fidei by being in designation of being believers and baptized , intended to be holy by the parents , to be bred up to the faith and so baptized ; is a most groundless inconvenient interpretation . for if by holiness and faith be meant inherent holiness and faith , then baptism it self is the ceremony of consecrating and designing them to this , and so precedent to that holiness ( not subsequent to it as mr. t. sets it ) and accordingly in the church writings the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 believers , is never bestowed on any , though of mature age and knowledge ; till after they be baptized , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 illuminate and believers being all one , promiscuously used for those that have received baptism , in opposition to catechumeni those that have not yet attained it : but if holiness and faith be the relative holiness then infants being as capable of that as vessels in the temple , they might be presently designed and consecrated to that , and not first bred up in the faith , before they were partakers of it . answ. that the interpretation i give is neither groundless nor inconvenient , is manifest by the phrase it self , designatos sanctitatis or sanctitati ; the doctors interpretation is altogether groundless and inconvenient ; for he renders p. . designed by sealed , but he shews not that ever [ designatos ] signifies [ sealed , ] the term for that is obsignatos , tertullian in his book of repentance saith , lavacrum illud ( meaning baptism ) est obsignatio fidei , quae fides a paenitentiae fide incipitur & commendatur : the term [ designed ] notes plainly the intention of the parent , and this is also plain from the next words [ of this hope ] which shews it is not baptism in infancy they were designed to , for that they need not hope for , they might presently have ; but real holiness of saving faith , and therefore expressed by candidatos fidei , and that this holiness was such a real holiness , appears by the addition ac per hoc etiam salutis , there being no other holiness that could bring salvation , and the term candidatos imports a suing or seeking for it , as erasmus expresseth it veluti ambiunt & expectant ; and dr. hammond p. . himself expresseth candidatos daemoniorum candidates of the devils , ambitious to be admitted thus early into his service . so that all these reasons shew , that designatos sanctitatis notes the intention of the parents with endeavours to produce faith , and so to bring them to baptism . which is the more evident if it be read [ designatos sanctitati ] for that case plainly intimates a tendency to it . as for designatos sanctitatis , which the dr. that he may 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 serve his own purpose ( which he elsewhere causlesly imputes to me ) turns [ sealed of holiness ] i crave leave to tell the dr. that in my appehension it makes tertullian speak non-sense ; and that it cannot be the meaning that it should note the consecrating by baptism , it appears in that it should have been then sanctitate , or per sanctitatem . besides , they are said to be designatos salutis as well as sanctitatis and i hope the dr. will not render it sealed of salvation as if it noted the ceremony of consecrating , salvation in no writer being put for for baptism : and however , here it 's a distinct thing from sanctity , which the dr. makes baptism . so that i think i may safely infer , that tertullian means by [ designatos sanctitatis or sanctitati rather ] not baptism , but the intention of the parents ( for of their act he speaks in opposition to the gentile parents designing their children to devils ; or as the terms are vowing , deputing to them , making them candidatos ) to breed them up in the faith , and so to bring them to baptism and salvation , which his words in his book de baptismo , c. . shew he approved as best , except necessity through danger of death imminent and apparent urged the hastening of it in little ones ; regularly he would have faith first , and baptism after , as the words in his book of baptism , and repentance forecited shew . and whereas the dr. saith ▪ in the church writings the word believers is never bestowed on any though of mature age and knowledge till after they be baptized , and so faith must be subsequent not antecedent to baptism as i set it , the dr. may perceive his mistake by the words of tertullian before quoted , itaque omnes credentes tingibantur , lavacrum illud est obsignatio fidei ; and this is agreeable to christs speech , mar. . . he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved , to which perhaps tertullian alluded when he said designatos sanctitati , which grotius follows , annot. ad cor. . . or condidatos fidei ac per hoc etiam saluti , or salutis . the relative holiness which vessels in the temple were capable of , is far from tertullians meaning : certainly tertullians phrase of designed to holiness is so far from proving infant baptism , that it proves the contrary , sith he is not said to be designatus or candidatus who hath an office or thing in possession , but he who is chosen to it or seeks for it , and so hath it onely in intention or expectation . as designatus saluti is not actually saved , so neither designatus sanctitati actually baptized . he adds . the children of believers , i willingly grant , are presumed to be by them intended to be bred up to the faith ; but if that intention of theirs bring forth no present effect , if they do not bring them thus early and enter them into the church by baptism , why should that bare intention of the parents give them the stile of holy or sanctified , or how should these infant children , which may die before they come t● those years , receive any present priviledge or benefit by that which is thus far removed from them ? answ. the drs. words answer this , p. . when he saith , whosoever is born from either parent christian , hath one priviledge by nature , by his very seed , that he is not so polluted as the idolatrous heathens children by their idolatrous ceremonies , and so is in some degree holy in that respect , which is a present effect , opposite to the present evil effect which the heathen idolatrous devotions brought on their children . he goes on . now for the d . part of this suggestion , that what i say from tertullian , that they were holy , i. e. baptized in seminis praerogativâ is a mistake , i must answer by viewing of the proofs of his assertion : first , saith he , the holiness was not onely by prerogative of birth , but ex institutionis disciplinâ . this is sure a strange proof , it is not so , because it is not onely so . 't is certain that tertullian saith they are holy ex institutionis disciplinâ , and as certain that they are as much so by prerogative of their birth ; the words are most clear , tam ex seminis praerogativâ quam ex institutionis disciplinâ , and that i never denied the second could not be mistaken in affirming the first . answ. the words of the dr. in his th . quaere gave occasion to think he conceived the children of believers to be termed holy by tertullian , that is baptized either onely or chiefly by prerogative of birth as that which gave them title to baptism . but it seems he means that they had title to it , also by the discipline of institution . but p. . he expounds the prerogative of birth onely by their freedome from idolarous pollution ; now sure that gave not title to baptism : an idolaters child if born without those pollutions had not title to baptism , he must be born according to his own exposition of the apostles and tertullians words of one believer : & therfore he must needs be mistaken in affirming the first , and he must needs miss tertullians meaning if by holy be meant baptized , and says they are baptized tàm ex seminis praerogativâ if that give no title to it . the dr. expounds ex institutionis disciplinâ thus , by the doctrine of baptism instituted by christ , by which baptism is allowed to children born of either parent christian. i have shewed before how short his proof is of this sense . for present , tertullians words , according to this exposition have an inept tautology ; for it is all one as to say , they are baptized as well by prerogative of birth as by prerogative of birth , the prerogative of birth by which they are baptized being all one with their priviledge of being born of a believer , which is acc●rding to the dr. the discipline of insti●ution . if tertullian had meant as the dr. would have it , he had not used tàm and quàm , but said , holy by prerogati●e of birth according to the discipline of institution ; whence it may appear , that the discipline of institution and holiness is another thing then the dr. interprets it , nor by his interpretation of the place will the place be clear . for not two priviledges ( as the dr. makes it ) but one priviledge , to wit , holiness , which the dr. makes to be baptism , is ascribed to them by a double means , freedome from heathenish pollutions , and the doctrine of christ about infants baptism : whereas freedome from such pollutions gives no title to baptism , and if prerogative of birth ●e meant of federal holiness ( of which is not a word there ) and the discipline of institution be the doctrine allowing baptism to the child born of a believer , it is either an inept tautology , both being the same , or incongruous speech , which should be thus mended , by prerogative of birth according to the doctrine of baptism by christ in his church , imagined by the dr. but not extant in scripture , nor tertullian . nor do tertullians words following , de anima , c . every soul is so long enrolled in adam till it be inrolled in christ , and is so long unclean till it be thus anew enrolled , prove that by [ holy ] tertullian meant baptized . for in the words before ( to which [ ita so ] refer ) he makes holy to be the same with entring into the kingdome of heaven , and the enrolrolling in christ he makes the same with being born of water and the spirit . of the words ascribed to origen and athanasius , enough hath been said already . neither cyprians nor chrysostomes words prove , that [ holy ] is as much as [ partaker of baptism ] in the ancients language , much less in the apostles cor. . . to the further consideration of which i proceed after dr. hammond . i excepted against dr. hammonds paraphrase of cor. . . that the term [ young children of christians ] is more then is in the text , which hath onely [ your children ] which is not restrained to infancy . but the dr. proves it is , . by the authority of tertullian , who saith of infant children , that they are procreated holy ; and nazianzen , who using this phrase 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in all probability refers to this place of the apostle , and so renders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , their children , by their infant children . answ. . tertullian doth not say that the infant children are holy in infancy onely . no● is there any thing said to make it in any sort probable , that nazianzen referred to that place of the apostle , in which is neither 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nor that hee should render 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when he useth not the same case nor number the apostle doth , but onely useth a description of young age , which is not to my remembrance expressed by the other word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any where . . the other reasons are farther from the thing . for neither doth it appear to be the general doctrine of the fathers , that the parents faith profits onely their infant children , some of them do reason from the faith of the woman of canaan , the faith of the ruler of the synagogue , that faith of parents profits children who were not infants . the other reason runs upon this mistake , which should be proved to be the apostles meaning ( but is denied by me ) ●hat he makes cor. . . sanctification or baptism of the children , a benefit of the believing parents cohabiting with the unbeliever . i said [ holy ] for [ admitted to baptism ] is a sense of the word no where else found . but this the dr. hopes he hath cleared , both from the usage of ●he word among the first christian writers , which is answered , and the jewish , of which in that which followes , and saith . i might further do it even by this apostles dialect , who in his inscriptions of most of his epistles to the churches , calls all those to whom he writes , i. e. the baptized christians of those churches holy , rom. . . and sanctified and holy , cor. . . cor. . . eph. . . phil. . . col. . . among whom no doubt there were many , who were no otherwise holy or sanctified , then as all baptized christians are capable of that stile . answ. true : but do●h hee term any infant so in those places ? or give them those titles barely from baptism ? doth he not expresly term them saints by their calling not by their baptism ? the drs. allegations have not yet altered my minde , but i think as i did his interpretation new , strange and absurd . i alleged aug. l. . de pecc . mer. & remiss . c. . ( and the like is said l. · c. . ) saying the sanctification of what sort soever it be , which the apostle said to be in the children o● believers , yet it belongs not to that question of baptism , and the beginning or remission of sins to this the dr. answers , t is true he saith it belongs not to that question , whether the sanctifying of the catechumeni after a sort by the sign of christ , and prayer of imposition of hands without baptism , profits him not to the entring the kingdome of heaven . and the meaning is such sanctification , except it be that of baptism , cannot avail to remission of sins . answ. the dr. mistakes in making the question to be of the catechumeni , mentioned c. . it is of the children of believers , who being termed holy , cor. . . should seem not to need baptism , which augustin answers , . by mentioning divers sorts of sanctification , but not determining which is there meant . . by resolving that what ever the sanctification be which the apostle said to be in the children of believers ( not as the dr makes it of the catechumeni ) it belongs not to that ●uestion of baptism ( not as the dr. doth palpably pervert the words p. . whatsoever sanctification it can be imagined to be that the apostle speaks of , except it be that of baptism , it cannot avail to the remission of sins , &c. ) to wit mentioned ch . . whether it exclude necessity of baptism , original sin and the remission of it in the children of believers termed holy . which is plainly against the dr. who will have it meant onely of baptism of infants of believers , by vertue of the believing parents faith . as for my other objections against his paraphrase not answered , i am so far from assurance that the dr. can easily answer them , that by this answer i judge he can answer none of them . sect . lxxxxii . dr. hammonds imagined evidence from [ hath been sanctified ] for his sense of the fore part of cor. . . is nullified , and my opinion of enallage of tense vindicated . ch. . sect. the dr. saith thus . first then to my first evidence taken from the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath been sanctified ] referring to some past known examples and experiences , of this kinde ( of a wives converting the husband , &c. ) he hath a double answer . . that as my paraphrase expresseth it , it should signifie not onely that an unbelieving husband hath been sanctified , but also that there is hope they will , and so it should note not onely some example past , but also some to come , of which there can be a less reasonable account given , then of putting it in the present tense in english. . that the enallage or change of tense is frequent ch . . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the present tense for the future , and here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and in the next v. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the preter for the present , and so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 here , not , hath been , but is sanctified , or if in the preter tense , yet that to be understood of a past thing , yet continued , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 john . . notes an act still continued in force . to these two i reply briefly , and first to the former ( the same which hee had mentioned before , and excepted against as an excess in my paraphrase , but both there and here without the least cause ; ) for in my paraphrase i look upon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as a verb of the preter tense , and as such onely adapt the sense to it , referring it not to future hopes , but to past experiments or examples ; onely because examples are rhetorical syllogismes , and what hath been frequently experimented may also reasonably be hoped , i suppose that the apostle so meant these examples , as grounds of hoping the like for the future , not making this of the future any part of the sense of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the preter , but explicating the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or rational importance ( which is somewhat more then the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the apostles speech ) and supposing this conclusion to lye hid under this premise , as it is ordinary in all discourse to set down the ●remises , distinctly leaving the conclusion by every ones reason to be drawn from thence , without setting it down explicitly . answ. that the dr. in his paraphrase qu. . § . . of his letter , put so much as i have noted review part . . sect . . of which there is nothing in the text expressed , is not justified by this plea. for what ever addition a paraphrast be allowed , yet sure no paraphrast is allowed to express that which he conceives it deducible from the sense of the words in thirteen lines , and the sense it self onely in three and especially when he layes that in his paraphrase as the ground of his argument for his position , which hath not a word in the text to leade to that inference . sure i had great cause to except against his paraphrase , which was so monstrous as to be defective in letting down what was the chief thing to be heeded in the apostles speech , to wit , the relation of husband and wife , and so extremely exuberant , as to express that as done often , which is mentioned in the singular number onely , and ascribe the sanctifying to the conversation not at all expressed , and put in a long inference that hath no intimation in the text , and mention an act of the church , of which there is no inkling there or near it , or any where else in scripture , and so many wayes corrupting the sense , as i shew ubi suprà , especially in the main supposing a mention made of a husband converted by the wife , and yet the husband expressed by the apostle as continuing an unbeliever , and a husbands being sanctified by the wife which is ever ascribed to gods spirit , never to any apostle , to make that which is used as a reason of lawfulness , as if it were a motive from an advantage , to make that as a rhetorical motive , which is a logical proof , to make that which was a rare contingent event , which might and it's likely did as often fail as a convincing argument to settle the conscience in the lawfulness of cohabitation , with other faults , as being so audacious an attempt , as i think no approved writer can bee shewed to have made , nor any considerate reader will allow of . nor would it ever have come into my thoughts , that so learned a man as dr hammond is , should have vented such a conceit as this is in his letter and annotations , did i not finde him set to maintain what the church of england , that is the prelates , held or appointed , as others what the scottish or new-english churches approve of . as for his excuse of his dealing in his paraphrase , it is too narrow a plaister for such a sore . for neither is any thing cor. . . set down as an example to move the will the judgement being before setled , nor any rhetorical syllogism , used , but a logical ; as the termes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , used rom. . . cor. . , , , &c. shew , nor doth the dr. prove , but suppose the apostle so meant ; nor doth he answer the allegations i bring to the contrary , review par . . § . . and his words here do imply as if this were the conclusion , that it is probable and a ground of hope , that the unbelieving yoke fellow will be converted by the believer cohabiting , and this the premise , for it hath often so come to pass , whereas there is not the least intimation of that conclusion in the text , and it is manifest by the term [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for ] that v. . is a proof of the determination or conclusion v. , . concerning the lawfulness of married persons living together in disparity of religion , not of dr. hammonds imagined as tacitely implied conclusion . but hee saith . wherein that i was not mistaken , i had all assurance from v. . where the argument is prest , and the conclusion inferred more explicitely . for what knowest thou o wife , whether thou shalt save thy husband — and the like mentioned in the paraphrase from pet. . . answ. dr. hammond had no assurance from v. . that the unbelieving husband is oft converted by the wife ; the thing being expressed so doubtfully as an uncertain contingent though possible , and so with some hope sperable , [ hierom. com . in cor. . . in dubium quidem ●osuit sed semper ambiguam melius evenire credenda sunt . ] much less that there is a conclusion of the probability of the converting of the infidel yoke●fellow , v. . deducible from the example and experiment of what was done in time past , v. . being neither explication nor proof of what is said v. . but a motive to make the thing determined as lawfull , v. , . more swasible , or a motive to what is said v. . that god hath called us in peace . in my apprehension if v. . were as the dr. meanes , the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified , that is converted by the wife often , and therefore it is probable , or there is a ground of hope , or it is to be presumed , it will be so for the future , the apostle had said the same v. . which is said v. . and so there would have been a meer tautology in the apostles speeches , which is not to bee conceived . as for pet. . though it shew such an event possible , yet not frequent , nor is there in peters words the least hint that pauls words cor. . . are to be understood as the dr. would have them . but the dr. hath another string to his bow , which he thus urgeth . and herein i have the authority of st. hierom ; as for my rendring 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the woman ( so i find it per mulierem in his . epist. ad latam , and so marianus victorius in his scholia assures us , all the copies ancient and printed read it ) so also for this part of my paraphrase . he produceth an example , because ( saith he on the place ) it hath often happened that the husband hath been gained by the wife , according to that of st. peter , that if any man believe not the word , he should without the word be gained by the conversation of the wife , that is , that when they shall see them changed to the better , all may know that the law of god might have been taken in exchange for so inveterate a custome . and so again ep. . ad laetam , speaking of the like example , we have well ( saith he ) and happily expected ( i. e. not mist of our expe●●ation ) an holy and faithfull house sanctifies an unbeliever , adding his conceipt , that jupiter himself if he had had such a kin●ed , might have been brought to the faith of christ. answ. 't is true that hierom comment . in cor. . . reads per mulierem , but in ep ad laetam he reads in uxore , and august . tom . l. . de peccat . merit . & remis . c. . and that in hierom in both places the terms fidelem and fideli are , but not in august . though he render the later part thus , & sanctificatur mulier infidelis in fratre . and i find in the scholies of erasmus 〈◊〉 roterdam , on hieroms epistle to laeta this the fir●● note . for he is san●●●fied ] the place is with s. paul in the former epistle to the corinthians cap. . in the ancient copies we find written in the husband , not by the husband , and in the wife , not by the woman . for the greek hath it , for the unbelieving husband is sanctified in the wife , and the unbelieving wife in the husband . moreover what the interpreter adds [ believer and believer ] he hath done for explication . by which it may appear , that erasmus saith otherwise then the dr. saith marianus victorius doth , and for my part i imagine erasmus is the more credible scholiast of the two . 't is true that hierom com . in cor. . . hath the words the dr. allegeth , but then he addeth , which the dr. leaves out . item ideo vir & uxor invicem sanctificantur : quia ex traditione dei sanctae sunt nuptiae . that is , likewise therefore the husband and wife are to each other or for each other , or in course sanctified , because by the tradition of god mariages are holy , which expresseth hieromes second and better thoughts . by which it may appear that hierom took of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as if it were in the present tense . and for the other place of hierom it is true , hierom hath the words the dr. cites , if the word [ jovem ] be not put for [ proavum ] or some such word as erasmus thinks . but then it is plain from the words left out by the dr. jam candidatus est fidei quem filiorum & nepotum credens turba circumdat . that is , he is as one that would be baptized , who hath a company of believing children & grandchildren about him . that the sanctifying is not made the priviledge of the husband in respect of his wife , or of the children by the parent , but also the grandfather is conceived likely to be sanctified by the children and grandchildren , and all is ascribed to example and instruction , with this express speech , fiunt non nascuntur christiani ; christians are made , not born such . and though hierome saith of laeta's daughter paula , that she was prius christo consecrata quàm genita , and she had conceived her , antè votis quam utero , yet the words cui imperatori , cui exercitui nutriatur , cui promissa sit , regis amplexibus parat , de spiritualibus nuptiis sciscitantem , do seem to me to imitate that young paula was not then baptized , which if right it is manifest , that children of believers were not baptized ordinarily then in infancy . and me thinks the words of hierom in his commentary on cor. . . on the words , else should your children be unclean , but now are they holy ; if it were not so as i say your children would yet remain infidels : for it would often happen that the children would follow those parents , who had believed . upon which hope he would have it believed , that the other might bee saved as well by the example of the children as by the marriage ; shew that hierom understood not the holiness of the children , of their baptism in infancy , but of their embracing the faith , by following the example of the believing parent , and in like manner the unbelieving parent was sanctified according to him , as well by the example of the children as the marriage . so that however dr. hammonds paraphrase in the forepart seems to have some countenance from these passages of hierome , yet the latter part is expounded clean besides the drs. minde , and the passages yeeld us such hints of the not baptizing of infants of believers , as do overthrow his conceit ; as if the infants of believers were then ordinarily baptized . dr. hammond adds . as for his d answer , i acknowledge such enallages to be ordinary in the hebrew , and sometimes , but more rarely , found in the hebraizing greeks or hellenists , and consequently , that where the context will not bear the sense of the tense which is used , there may be place for this grammatical figure , which yet is not to be made use of unnecessarily . accordingly if there were any convincing reason offered , that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the preter tense ] could not be born , ● should not then doubt to interpret it by this figure , either in the present or some other tense : but when ( as here it is evident ) there is no such necessity , then . i cannot think fit to do so , ( 't is dangerous to forsake the literal sense , when it may be commodiously retained , and fly to either a rhetorical or grammatical figure ; ) and having no motive to do so , i am next to consider , what is the properest importance of that phrase in that tense wherein it is used , and then i could not ( i believe ) have fallen upon any thing more natural , then that the preter form of speech referred to the past experiences , &c. this is a full satisfaction to his answer . answ. . the drs. acknowledging that such enallages may be , and sometimes are , shews that his interpretation is not necessary , and therefore his inference thereupon not certain , which is enough to make good my answer . . it is to me a convincing reason , that there is an enallage of the preter tense for the present , not onely because camerarius and other learned men conceive so , and our translator so render i● ; but also because by the making it to import an experience past●nely , a sense is brought in ( as i have shewed in my examen , par ▪ . sect . in the first part of the review , sect . , &c. in the second part of the review , sect . . ) which is neither agreeing with the words , nor pertinent or accommodate to the matter of the apostle speech however the dr. believe , yet it is shewed here , and review par . . sect . that to refer the sanctifying cor. . to past experiences , is not natural . for the apostles speech being a reason , not of the commodiousness of living together in disparity of religion , ( for if it had been of i● , they could have better resolved themselves then the apostle , yea , they could have refuted the apostle , and re●●●ied his reason against him , we find it not so by experience , ) but of the lawfulness , the reason must be conceived to import right , not event ; and so the speech is not of what hath been , which onely mentions experience , but of what is de jure , or is lawfull ; and as piscator rightly schol. in cor. . . sanctificatus est ] id est , usus illius ut sanctus , & conscientiam uxoris non ladens concessus est . and in this manner it is usual to express such sentences in the preter tense , yet to be expounded by an enallage , as in the same chapter the next v. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is in the preter tense , yet rightly rendred [ is not under bondage , ] v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 therei● difference , v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is short , cor. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is known , cor. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 am justified , cor. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ye do stand , v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are perished , cor. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is opened , tit. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are defiled , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 usually is written , matth. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is given . yet ( saith the dr. ) i may in the d. place ex abundanti add thus much more , that the utmost he can pretend to by the enallage ( whether of the preter for the present , or of the preter understood of a past thing yet continued ) is as commodious fo● my interpretation as the preter is : for if it be in the present , then the importance will be , that it is a matter of present daily experience ; if in the past continued , then that it is matter both of past and present experience , that the unbeliever is thus wrought upon by the believer , and brought into the church by baptism , and this a just ground of hope , that so it may be again in any particular instance , and so a competent motive that the believing wife should abide with the infidel husband , and not depart as long as he will live peaceably with her : and this sure was s. hieroms understanding in the words newly cited , the apostle makes instance , produceth example that this hath ( and doth ) ordinarily come to pass ; and to that also agrees the th . verse , for how knowest thou &c. answ. . if it be in the present tense , the importance will not be , that it is a matter of present daily experience , unless it be proved the term [ sanctified ] notes an iterated event , which i conceive and think i have proved to import right or lawfulness , so as that the sense is , the unbelieving husband is sanctified to or in respect of his wife ( as beza , piscator , grotius , &c. do conceive ) that is , lawfully used , which is the onely sense that fits the determination of the apostle , which is not of the conveniency or commodiousness or advantage in living together , but of the lawfulness , v. , . nor if it be in the past continued , will it fit the drs. sense . for the drs. sense is as if sanctification were the same with conversion , but that is an act transeunt , past , and not continued ; and if it include baptism , as the dr. would have it , the sense should be , the unbelieving husband hath been converted , and brought to baptism , and continues to be converted and brought to baptism by the conversation of the wi●e ; which cannot be said of the person said to be sanctified : yea , there is no less then an implicite contradiction in the words so expounded ; for then it should be thus meant , the unbelieving husband ( remaining an unbeliever , as the ap●stles speech supposeth , else it were not apposite to the case v. , . ) is and continues to be wrought upon by the believer , and brought into the church by baptism . yet were this exposition allowed , it would no whit avail to the drs. purpose , unless the futurity of the same act were implied in that imagined sense of the dr. for it is not the event past that is the motive of cohabitation , but the hope of that which may be : and yet the dr. tels us in his paraphrase , he looks upon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as a verb of the preter tense , and as such onely adapts the sense to it , referring it not to future hopes but to past experiences or examples . ye● he saith , the apostle produceth example , and to that also exactly agrees the th . v. for how knowest thou , &c. which doth not at all mention an example or past experience , which could not be not done being once done , but onely an uncertain and doubtfull futurity . so that in this again the drs. speeches do enterfere , and his speech is most false , that the words v. . do exactly agree with the meaning of the forepart of the th . v. as the dr. expounds it . i omit that there is not a word that intimates the bringing into the church by baptism ; and i● there were , it would import a strange experience of a wives bringing her husband into the church by baptism , which cannot be avoided by saying through her perswasion it is done by another ; for the text expresly assigns the sanctification , what or however it be , to the wives individual person , if then , to her as an agent it is done by her . but i have said so much here , and review d . par . sect . . of this exposition , as me thinks should make this exposition of the dr. to be exploded by the learned . yet he writes further thus . as for mr. t. his instances of enallage , though now i may safely yeeld them all , and rather gain then lose by them , i shall yet in the last place add my sense , that no one of them is any way convincing ; that of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not , c. . . for his passion was now so near approaching , that it might very fitly be represented as present , and so that be the force of the present tense . answ. this instance is convincing , that enallage of tense is sometimes used , it being used in this place , as piscat . scholie in locum , enallage temporis & metaphora . and the drs. reason doth no whit weaken the allegation of it ; for that which notes paulo post futurum , a future near approaching , is not without an enallage expressed by the present tense . and for the enallage in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i conceive with the drs. good leave , that usually the greeks express by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 what the apostle doth by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so there is an enallage of tense or mood ; and for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , v. . if an enallage be not conceived , then it must not import the present tense at all , whereas the dr. grants it notes the preter tense yet continued , which is all one as to say it notes the present tense , which without an enallage it could not do . as for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , joh. . . i wonder the dr. would intimate as if it were produced by me to the prejudice of the preter tense , when my very words say expresly it notes a past thing yet continued , and bring it to that purpose : but how this is far from being still perfectly agreeable to his notion of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the unbeliever oft hath been , and daily is converted ; and brought to baptism by the believer , is apparent , in that the continuation of the condemnation , joh. . . is onely in respect of legal force and vertue ; but the sanctification cor. . . is as he expounds it , a meer transeunt act that imports no legal right , force , and vertue , and therefore cannot be said to be continued as the other can . and how vain the drs. sense is , and how justifiable my interpretation is by an enallage , is shewed before . sect . xciii . dr. hammonds rendring [ by ] cor. . . is reselled , and my rendring 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ to ] justified . sect. . the dr. omitting what i said , that if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be rendred [ in ] it serves my turn , not his unless it be proved it must be rendred [ by , ] and his supplement [ by the company and conversation of the believer ] proved , saith somewhat to my reasons of adhering to the reading of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cor. , . by [ to ] . because this seems to me the fairest , easiest , and most congruous sense . but . he tels me this is the begging of the question , that it is such must not be here supposed when it should be proved . to which i reply , . if it be the fairest , easiest , and most congruous sense , it is some proof . . that it is the onely sense which can stand with the words and scope of the apostle , and is avouched so by learned men , ancient and later protestants and papists , is shewed at large in my exercit. sect . . examen , par . . sect . review , par . . sect . , &c. here sect . , &c. refutat . of dr. savage his position in latine , sect . . antidote , sect . . besides what occurs in my apology , postscript , plea , which is abundantly sufficient for acquitting me from begging the question , which he doth so importunely urge . . that the dr. rather begs the question then proves his interpretation , hath and will appear in this and the former view taken of it . but the dr. sullies the beauty of my sense of the apostles words thus . the fairness of the sense ( simply taken ) is not attempted to bee proved , which yet doth stand in great need of it ; for beside the redundance , or unusual sense of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , some other parts of the rendering are none of the fairest . as . the believer may abide ] as if it were simply free to abide or not abide , whereas in the present case ( when the unbeliever is willing to abide with the believer ) the believer is by the apostle counselled at least , if not commanded ( and that is more then a liberty that he may . ) to him the apostle saith ( and his sayings have sure authority with them ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 let him not put away . nay the interdict of christ belonging to all but that one case of fornication , mat. . and mat. . it is evident that by force thereof the believing man must not put away the unbeliever , that is , guilty of no more but unbelief . and accordingly the preface 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 — but for the rest ( or for the other questions v. , , , . say i , not the lord ) must be applied not to the immediate consequents of the believers not putting away the unbeliever , that will stay with him ( for that had been determined by christ in the negative ) but to v. . if the unbelieving depart , i. e. if the unbeliever will not dwell with the believer , except the believer forsake his or her religion , what shall be done then ? and to that the apostles counsel is , that marriage inslaves not the believer so far . all which is a competent prejudice to that part or mr. t his sense , the believer may abide ; for if that bee it even when the unbeliever is willing to abide , then she may also depart , if shee rather chuse , which will be found contrary to christs precept . answ nil tam recte dictum quod non possit malè interpretando depravarier , as the dr. doth here . 't is true i did in the second part of this review sect. p. , . say ( and gave reasons of it ) that the apostle cor. . , . did dot forbid leaving each other , but resolve onely the lawfulness of living together , but this did not intimate as if the believer were simply free to abide or not abide with the unbelieving yoke-fellow willing to live with her , that when the unbeliever is willing to abide the believing wife may also depart if she rather chuse , but this , that notwithstanding the continuance of the unbelief of the husband , the wife might live with him , it was not unlawfull . so that i asserted not a liberty of le●ving him upon any cause , but a liberty of continuing with him , notwithstanding that reason ● and therefore the dr. did ill to paraphrase v. . be ought not to put her away , v. ● . let her by no meanes separate from him . and i gave some reason from v. . where the permitting to depart is a matter of liberty , as the word [ is not in bondage ) shews , and yet the word is as much imperative as v. ● , . and i might have added , that v. . let him not be uncircumcised , let him not be circumcised , are there expressions of liberty , not of duty ( as the reason v. . shews ) and yet are as imperative as the forms used v. , . [ see before of this , p. , , . ] 't is true , to be circumcised might be forbidden elsewhere , as gal. . , . and might be then unlawfull , and so it might be forbidden in other texts for the beliver to leave husband except in case of fornication , but in these texts liberty onely is expressed , in the one of living together notwithstanding the unbelief of the one party , in the other continuing in that state of circumcision or uncircumcision , as they were in when they were first called to the faith of christ. and this i think the dr. should prefer as the most suitable to his own exposition , sith the frequent conversion of the infidel by the believer , v. . is no fit reason to make it an unlawfull thing for her to depart , but onely it may be some motive of her will to continue , as the dr. makes it . and i conceive v. , , . are to be so expounded , sith it is clear that to be a servant , or unmarried are some of the callings there mentioned , as v. , , . shew , but if it were a command of duty meant , v. , , . the servant must remain a servant contrary to v. . and the unmarried not marry , contrary to v . and v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seek not a wife , being as prohibitive a form as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. , . an unmarried man should be forbidden to woe a woman , contrary to v. . which exempts marriage from sin . so that indeed all these imperative speeches v. , , , , , , , , . are to be expounded as resolutions of liberty , and so precepts of indulgence , not absolute prohibitions or injunctions of what may in no case be done , or must be done as precepts of empire . and it is as when a person scrupling whether shee may be married to a priest woing her is resolved thus , let her not forsake him , she is not commanded to marry him , but resolved she may ; so it is in this case . which being rightly understood , there is nothing opposite in my speech to christs speeches matth . or . about not putting away except in case of fornication , nor the apostles cor. . . nor need i trouble my self whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be the other questions , v. , , , . though i think it should have been then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nor whether it be to be applied to v. . as the dr. would , though it bee in my apprehension very unlikely . secondly , saith the dr. in this rendring , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is englished ( not by is or hath been sanctified , but ● by [ is as if he were sanctified ] which indeed acknowledgeth that he is not , truely ( in any respect ) sanctified , and then sure this will be a strange construction , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the unbeliever ( is not sanctified but ) is as if he were sanctified , when yet litterally it must be rendered the unbeliever hath been , or ( to gratifie mr. t. ) is or continues to be sanctified : for what is this but to interpret an affirmative by interposing a negation , he is sanctified , by he is not ? for so assuredly he is not , if he onely be as if he were . answ. according to me , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendered or englished [ is or hath been sanctified ] but is expounded [ is as if hee were sanctified ] as cor. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendered or englished [ were baptized ] yet by grotius expounded annot . cor. . . baptizali sunt , id est , quasi baptizati sunt . which me thinks should be no strange construction to dr. hammond , who by his answer to dr. owen ch . . § . , . seems to be acquainted with grotius his annotations and other writings , and to account of him as a very pious , learned judicious man. in this exposition of grotius there is as much an interpretation of an affirmative by interp●sing a negation as in mine ; the like i may say of other passages in the new testament , as when it is said heb. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dead or killed of abraham then alive , matth. . . he that doth the will of his father in heaven is christs mother , who never bare him in the womb , matth. . . they prophane , who did holy service , matth. . . they made themselves eunuchs , who were not gelded . the dr. adds . with this let any man compare the interpretation i have given , the unbeliever hath been sanctified by the believer , i. e. examples there are of such as have been thus converted from their unbelief , and this sense inforced by the interrogation , v. . for what knowest thou , o woman , whether thou shalt save the man , &c. and by s. peters aphorism of daily observation pet. . . the husband that obeyes not the word , i. e. the unbeliever , may probably bee gained by the conversation of the wife , and then let him impartially pass judgement , which is the fairest and easiest rendering . answ. content : if he will but take notice of this one thing ( besides many more ) that the unbelieving husband , mentioned cor. . . is said to be sanctified even then when he was an unbeliever . which is proved from the text . . the unbelieving huusband , and wife , v. . are the same with the unbelieving husband and wife mentioned v. , . for the expression v. . is rela●ive to v. , . otherwise it were impertinent to resolve the question , and the particle [ for v. . ] shewing it to be a reason of the determination v. , . plainly proves it to bee meant of the same persons who continued unbelievers . . from v. . where the resolution of the doubt is continued , but if the unbeliever depart , let him depart ; which is not to bee expounded of him that was an unbeliever but is not , but of him who is when he departs , which is confirmed in that he is opposed to a brother or sister , who if he were converted should be a brother . . from v. . where still the unbeliever mentioned v. , , , . is supposed to remain an unbeliever , else why should his saving be made doubtfull and contingent ? and if the dr. stand to his own conceit , as if v. . exactly agreed with v. . it must be so construed by himself . . his own tertullian who saith ex sanctificato alterutro sexu , not utraque , and hierome , and all other that add fidelem , v. . and all the interpreters i know , that do make the sanctifying to be v. . in disparity of religion , do agree in this , that the unbeliever v. . is meant of one that continues an unbeliever , otherwise he should not be distinguished from the believer , who was also an unbeliever formerly . which if but observed , i dare put it to any reader of ordinary capacity to judge between us , whether the doctors sense be not so far from being the fairest and easiest , that it is indeed a foul one , such as doth imply a contradiction to the apostles words , the dr. supposing the unbeliever v. . once such but not so then , the apostle supposing him to continue so , the dr. expounding it thus ; he that was once an unbeliever , another then the unbeliever meant v. , . hath been sanctified by the believing wife , that is converted ; and the apostle , he that is still an unbeliever , the same mentioned v. , . is sanctified ; and whether mine [ the believer may abide with the unbelieving yoke-fellow : for though he be an unbeliever , yet in or to his wife , he is as if he were sanctified ; it 's all one in respect of lawfull [ omitted by the dr. ) conjugal use as if he were sanctified ] be not the fairest , easiest , and most congruous sense , that is to be given of those words cor. . . the dr. goes on thus ; his d . reason is , because , though the dr. deny it , yet i aver that the notion of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for to as a sign of the dative case , is found more then once in the n. t. the truth of this i must now examine , by the proofs offered for the affirmation . and his first proof is , from matth. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , this , saith he , cannot be eluded , because the same speech is mark. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and rendred by beza in the former place fecerunt ei , they did to him . . whereas the dr. saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , upon him or against him , it had been meet the dr. should have given one instance at least , of such construction , which , saith he , i do not believe he can do . to this i answer , . by two ready instances in one verse , luk. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; if they do these things ( our ordinary english reads , in a green tree , but the sense and propriety directs us to ) on the green tree , what shall be done on the dry ? here is the very phrase that is used in that place of matthew , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . answ. i did aver more then the dr. sets down , that the notion of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for [ to ] may with good congruity and grammatical analogy be affixt to it , cor. . . and i used these words left out by the dr. whereas he saith ( meaning the dr ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 on him or against him , and that this is an ordinary acception , of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; i grant that it is an ordinary acception to use 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but not in the sense hee here conceives , to wit , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes on or against a person . now the doctors instance is but in one verse , and therefore shewes not the ordinary acception , and then whereas i expected an instance of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as it notes on or against a person , hee brings an instance of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 on a tree , and this is not of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 against , which had been more for his purpose , but for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 on , though in the sense of [ on him ] 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rather answers to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . yet the dr. brings no authority but his own for this his conceit of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for on , luk. . . i add ; that though the latin and english translators i have yet looked into , do render 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 luk. . . by in not on , super or contrà ( which are the drs. notions ) yet i find diodati in his italian translation reading , al legno verde al legno secco , which i take to be as much [ to ] as if it were expressed by ligno viridi , and ligno sicco or arido , without a preposition , and if so , the dr. hath brought a text which further confirms my conceit against himself . in which i am the more confident , because when an object patient , or a subject suffering is expressed with the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it is either never or very rarely said , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as in luk. . , , . & . . & . , , , , . & . . & . . & . . acts . . & . . luk. . . & . . & . . acts . . & . . & . . & . , . omitting other writers . which is an argument to me , that luk. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is redundant , and that it is best transiated , to the dry , to the green , and so the dr. hath given an instance for my notion , not for his own . he saith further . and then for s. marks using ( in the parallel place ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] that proves not that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was rendundant in s. matthew , or that it was a bare signe of the dative case , it being free to s. mark to use any other expression , different from s. matthew so he retained the sense , as it is clear in this place he doth , doing injuries to him , being all one in effect with upon or against him , though the phrases are not the same , which no way inferrs that when the change of the phrase changes the sense , it were lawfull so to vary it , as in the place we have in hand ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) 't is on both sides supposed to do . answ. the dr. omits these words of mine [ however if he could , yet me thinks it should satisfie , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes no more than 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ and is a sign of the dative case , because mark who seems to have abbreviated matthew , so expresseth it , and the common use of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whe● it notes dealings of man to man whether good or bad , is usually expressed by the dative case , as matth. . . & . & . . & . , . & . , . ] to which the dr. makes no answer , and that which he saith here , doth confirm my notion . for if it were free to mark to use any other expression different from matthew , so he retained the sense , and yet he doth not use 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but put onely the dative case to express the same ; that matthew did it appears that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are to the same sense and phrase , to express injuries done to john baptist , and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in matthew is redundant , and nothing expressed by it but what is expressed in mark in the dative case without it . what the dr. means when he saith [ 't is on both sides supposed ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) changes the sense , and so it is unlawful to vary it ] i do not understand , our present question is not whether it bee lawfull to change a phrase when the sense is not changed , and unlawful when it is : but whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 matth. . . bee redundant and a signe of the dative case : this is yet unanswerably proved to bee by this , that mark. . . the same phrase and matter is expressed without it , and there it notes onely the dative case , and that is the usual manner of expression without 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and therefore 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must be taken as redundant , and a sign of the dative case onely , matth. . . the dr. goes on , a second instance which he conceivs cannot bee eluded , is col. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which was preached to every creature , and this he proves to be the onely rendering ; . because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to preach , is commonly with a dative case of the object , and though tim. . . it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , yet our translators and the vulgar , and beza read it , unto the gentiles , as if there it noted onely a dative case ; and if it were among the gentipes there , yet here col. . ● . it cannot be so , because the object is in the singular number , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when it is for among , is joyned still with a noun of the plural . and . that which , saith he , puts this out of all doubt , is , that the phrase col. . answers mark . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . but to all this the answer is ready , by observing the exact notation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the whole creation ( as we render it rom. . . ) as that signifies the whole , but especially the gentile world , and accordingly is exprest by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , matth. . and farther explained by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the whole world , to which in s. mark they are appointed to go , when they were thus to preach the gospel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to this whole creation . now of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in this notion it is clear , that though it be in the singular number , yet that hath the power of the plural , as the word [ world ] and the like , which every body knowes is a noun of multitude , and so is creation , when it is thus taken for the whole created world , meaning the world of men , the nations or people of the world . and then there can be no doubt but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is most exactly thus to be rendred , preached in , or among the whole creation , as gal. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 preach in the nations , or among the gentiles , and so tim. . . also , though the sense being no way altered by rendering it unto the whole creation , or every creature , and the gentiles , it matters little though it be promiscuously thus rendred , which yet must not prescribe for other places where the sense is so much changed by the divers rendring as in this case , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is observable , where therefore the litteral rendering being retained , we are not reasonably to conclude any more from it , then that litteral reading will afford us . as for the parallel phrase mark. . that doutless can prove nothing ; . because the places are not nor can be thought parallel . . because if they were ( as of matth. . and mark . hath been granted ) yet the parallel lying onely in the sense , and that being all one whether they preacht to or among the gentiles , this no way concludes that the phrases are the same , or the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in one redundant , which is the onely thing , for the proving of which this parallel is produced , but of that i have formerly spoken . answ. had the dr. shewed any one interpreter that ever rendred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 col. . . by inter omnem creaturam , among every creature , or that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as it signifies inter or among or either of these prepositions , is put in latin or english before a noun of multitude in the singular number , he had said more then i yet deem hee can , or i think any other grammarian , nor do i take the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be a noun of multitude , there may bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though there were but one individual , though i grant 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes many creatures , nor do i conceive it good sense to render it in every creature , sith the term [ creature ] doth note persons not place , and to be preached in every creature , would imply such a sense as will not suit with the matter , which is conceived by many interpreters , to note the accomplishment of what christ appointed mark . . which leaving out the preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the common use of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to preach being with a dative case of the object , i did infer that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is redundant and a note of the dative case , as pasor before me in his lexicon of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of which he saith , saepe ex hebraismo redundat col. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , predicati omni creaturae . sure if it were most exactly rendered , as the dr. saith , preached in or among the whole creation , it is marvail none hit on this afore the dr. as they have done gal. . . tim. . . whether col. . . and mar. . . be parallel in the manner i make them , is to be referred to the readers judgement , when he shall compare them together . sure i finde all these , beza , camerarius , piscator , zonchius , grotius , davenant , trapp , the new annotations , elton , referring to and explaining one by the other , and the dr. confessing the sense the same , every grammarian that understands greek may plainly see the phrase to be the same save that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is added col. . ● . and therefore from all these i infer as most probable , and to me certain , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is redundant , that it 's onely the sign of the dative case of the object , that it is most truely rendered as our translators and many more rendered , to every creature , that is , as gorram expounds it , universis hominibus , to all , or all sorts of men . as for the drs. cautions about prescribing and concluding , they are impertinent to the present thing concerning col. . . whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be redundant the sign of the dative case there . whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cor. . . he to be rendered [ to ] whether the sense will bear it , whether it make any other change in the sense then is fit , or any more be concluded , then is deducible is before and after to be discussed . hitherto it appears not but that i said right , matth. . . col. . . cannot be eluded . the dr. goes on , his third instance is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 acts . . which he cannot yet conceive , but that it is better rendred , to men , then among men . and his reasons are ; first , because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath most regularly and consequently ( it should be constantly ) a dative case of the person after it . secondly , because if it had been among men , it had been to be placed after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 other , there is no other name among men , given , but being placed after given , it is to be expounded as referred to given not to other , and so must bee read , to men , not among men . thirdly , it seems no good sense , nor true , that christ was a name given among men , for though he were among men , yet he was given from above , to all which , he adds the judgement of irenaeus l. . c. ● . cited by beza , and a parallel phrase 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 acts . . to this i answer . first , that 't is true when 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath any case of the person following and governed by it , that is constantly the dative , but that is no way applicable to this phrase , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for there the persons 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are governed by the preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . to the second , that the construction by among , is very good , placing it after given , there is no other name given among men , i. e. no means of salvation afforded by god , and continued among men . to the third , that christs being given from above , no way prejudges his being given among men , both because the benefit of this gift is a common donative , distributed among men , and also because this gift is dispenc'd in form of humane flesh , christ is become man , and to be found and seen among men . answ. . that the persons 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 men , are governed by the proposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and not by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is not rightly said by the dr. first , because the placing of it next after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shews it is governed of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 given . secondly , because if [ men ] were not governed of [ given ] the participle [ given ] were superfluous . for he sense would be the same , and the speech were as good language if it were left out , and the reading onely thus ; neither is there another name under heaven among men , whereby we must be saved . ● . that name whereby we must be saved ] should be put for [ meanes of salvation ] and not a person distinctly is both besides the usual acception of the term [ name ] and the drift of the words , which shew that by [ name ] is meant [ person ] and makes the speech false ; for the preaching of the gospel by prophets , and apostles , were means of salvation afforded by god , and continued among men , besides christ and his preaching . . that this gift was dispenc'd in form of humane flesh , that christ was become man , and to bee f●und and seen among men , shews not that he was given among men , but to be among men , his giving was from above , as he often saith , that he came down from heaven , joh. . , , , , . . given from heaven , v. . joh. . . ye are from beneath , i am from above . joh. . . he that cometh from above is above all , he that cometh from heaven is above all ; which is contrary to what peter ( as the dr. expounds him ) speaks here , that he was a name under heaven given among men . and the other reason , because the benefit of this gift is a common donative , and distributed among men , though it perverts the sense , putting for [ the name ] which signifies the person [ the benefit ] and confounding the person whereby we must be saved with the benefit , which is no other then salvation , yet it makes for my sense . for what is it to be a common donative , distributed among men , but to be given to men . so that in the issue , the dr. notwithstanding his strugling is not able to avoid it , but that it serves my purpose of proving 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 redundant , and a signe of the dative case . what the dr. saith to what i add out of beza annot . on acts . . the dr. might have remembred ( if he ever read it ) that in my examen . part . . § . . i did take notice that irenaeus was a greek and wrote in greek , but now onely we have his works in latin except some few fragments , and beza so great a learned man , as had few equals , especially in the greek language , it is likely knew so too ; and therefore the dr. might have omitted that intimation , as if wee were forgetfull thereof . and it had been fair if the dr. had taken notice , that beza alledged first the old interpreter , as reading [ datum hominibus , given to men ] and irenaeus ( meaning his translator , who is commonly cited as irenaeus ] after him , and that i added camerarius , which the dr. saith nothing to , but hath a snatch at beza's alleging acts . . which i rest not on , sith it may be read [ with or among ] as well as [ to ] which is agreeable with our l●st translation , our fathers had the tabernacle of witness . but i follow the dr. in his debates , which it is indeed pitty the reader or the dr. should be exercised with , being fit for better undertakings then these , which he is detained with upon his own motion , as one that is cedere nescius to a plain truth , not in obedience to me who never injoyned him this exercise . he saith , for a th . instance , he again resumes that of gal. . . pet. . . that gal. . where of god the apostle saith , that he was pleased to reveall his own son 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and when i had rendred that by or through me to others , this exposition , saith he , makes the apostle tautologize ineptly . this strange undecent expression , i wish had been spared , for certainly there was little temptation for it : why , i pray , might not the apostle without incurring either part of that censure , say , god was pleased through me to reveal his son , and by way of explication ( and withall to denote the designation of that apostle to his peculiar province , as the apostle of the uncircumcision ) add , that i might preach the gospel to the gentiles . certainly every explication of an obscurer or narrower , by a clearer or larger phrase , is not inept tautology , but that which all writers which have desired to speak intelligibly , have always been full of . and yet dly , the later part here , of his preaching the gospel to the gentiles ( he being peculiarly the apostle of the gentiles , as peter and john were of the jews wheresoever dispersed ) is more then was pretended to be said by my rendring and paraphrasing the former part of it ; for in that those others had not been defined , who they were , or limited to the gentiles . this mr. t. adverted not in his objection , i desire he will now take notice of it . answ. i could not well have spared the expression , having temptation for it from dr. hammonds mis-interpreting the apostles speech , so as to make it according to the drs. sense , though not according to the apostles , an inept tautology ; which however strange , yet was no undecent expression , there being nothing that reflects on the apostle but on the dr. tending to shew the absurdity of his interpretation , not of the apostles words . from which the dr. doth not relieve himself by his answer here . for the later phrase doth not express the same more clearly , there is neither a copulative conjunction nor dis●junctive , expressed or implied , nor any other particle which may shew the later phrase to be exegitical of the former , but the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth plainly shew that , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the evangelizing or preaching the gospel , to be m●ntioned as the end or consequent of the revelation , and therefore not the same act . besides the preaching the gospel by a man is no where termed the revealing of christ by him to others , being known to him before , but the making known to the person , and revelation is still made gods , christs , or his spirits act , and hath a dative case of the person who is the object to whom the thing is revealed added to it , as matth. . , . & . . luk. . , . john . . cor. . . & . eph. . . phil. . . pet. . . and this must needs be the meaning , the words before being , whereas before he was zealous of the law against the christian profession , when it pleased god who separated me from my mothers womb , and called me by his grace to reveal his son in him ; or as beza annot . in locum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est mihi , to me , which plainly shews that this revelation was to him when he was called , which is called the revelation of jesus christ to him , v. . and made the proof of his calling to bee an apostle , not of men , neither by man , but by jesus christ , v. . and the reason why he preached without conferring with the apostles and thus doth perkins com . on gal. . . rightly explain it , to reveal his son in me or to me , and to express the manner or form of his calling or conversion , and expounds it thus , to teach me the doctrine of the redemption of mankinde by jesus christ , and the words to preach christ among the gentiles the end of his vocation . as for that which the dr. desires me now to take notice of , i do , though i think it needless , sith the tautology i conceived to follow on the drs. exposition , is not in the object but in the act , revealing his son by the apostle , being no other then his preaching , which makes the speech nugatory , it pleased god to preach his son by me , that i might preach . as for the place of pet. . . sith the dr. makes no more answer i need make no more reply , and i still aver that all the places which i brought out of the n. t. have the notion of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for to , as a signe of the da●ive case . to the places out of the greek of the old testament , he tels me , that three onely places in the whole old t. would never infer that so it must bee in the new ( which i grant ) and there being no pretense of necessity that thus it wust be here ( which is also granted , except a necessity of a more fair , easie , and congruous sense then any other rendering ) these three will be of no avail to me . but this is not yeelded . for the two first , deut. . . & kings . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vulg . adhaerebit tibi & semini tuo , being used constantly in the n. t. with a dative luk. . . and . . acts . . & . . & . . & . . & . . rom. . . cor. . , , &c. it is a strong presumption that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is redundant , and onely the signe of the dative case . and the other place psal. . . compared with eph. . . hath some force , it being probable that the apostle expressed what the lxx meant by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . but it was not of this last onely , but of all together , i said i took them to be more then enough to refute the drs. speech , that the notion , wherein 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to , which is a signe of the dative case , is never found once to belong to it in the n. t. nor can with any tollerable congruity or grammatical analogy be affixt to it . sect . xciv . it is shewed that dr. hammond hath no proof from cor. . . for his sense of the fore-part of v. . nor will his sense of holy for baptized , agree with the apostles argument , though his sense of the forepart of the v. were granted . the dr. adds , my third proof produced for my interpretation of the first part of v. . which to me put it out of all doubt , by comparing it with the reason subjoyned ; for what knowest thou o wife , whether thou shalt save thy husband ; or how knowest thou , o man , whether thou shalt thy wife ? ] he comes next to examine , and hath many exceptions against it , all which ( without losing time in repeating and viewing them severally ) will be soon dispelled by a right understanding of the force of the apostles argument , as there i conceive it to lie , thus v. . it is matter of ordinary observation , that unbelieving husbands have been brought to the faith and baptism by the believing wife , therefore i now exhort and counsel the believer not to depart from the unbeliever , in case the unbeliever be willing to stay , v. . for this reason , v. . because whath hath been so oft , may very probably be hoped again , and consequently upon the premimises the believer hath ground to hope , that she may in time gain the husband to the faith , and that being so fair a reward in her view , ( the saving or rescuing him from infidelity to christ ) may well inforce the counsel of the apostle , not to depart from him , as long as , without sin , she is permitted to stay . by which it appears that this v. . is not a bare evplanation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. . ( on which mr. t. his exceptions principally depend ) but an application of the argument formerly proposed , but now more signally brought home to them , under the form of [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for what ] by this meanes to re-inforce his conclusion of their not departing for the cause of infidelity : if the reader will but observe what is thus visible , he will want no more help , to get out of the intricacies and roils , which mr. t. hath here spread for him in this matter , which is in it self so manifest , as nothing can be added to it , if either the text or my paraphrase may be permitted to speak for it self . ans. the dr. seems to be much crest-fa●n , who having said his exposition appeared most irrefragably by v. . wherin he said the fore-part of v. . was further explained . when four plain reasons were urged against this , he replies to none , but onely calls them intricacies , and toils , and saith , my exceptions depend on this , that v. . is not a bare explanation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. . whereas my reasons prove it to be neither an explanation nor an application of the argument formerly proposed v. . but another argument , not to prove the lawfulness of the believers continuance with the believer , as v. . but either as a motive to bring them to what he had concluded lawfull , or to inforce what he had said v. . and for what the dr. saith , that v. . the argument formerly proposed , v. . is more signally brought home to them , it is not true even according to the drs. own paraphrase . for the drs. paraphrase of v. . as if therein a frequ●ncy of the conversion of unbelievers yoke fellows by the believer , were well known as matter of ordinary observation , and so hopefull in the case of the present doubters , brings home the argument more signally then a mention o● it as possible , doubtfully expressed as a contingent that might be or not be . but i am willing the reader should hear us both and then judge . i for my part do still conceive the drs paraphrase of the fore-part of cor. . . to be far from the meaning of the text , the reason of the apostle being by it made a rhetorical argument to inforce the cohabitation as an advantage , which is used to make it lawfull , and urged from a contingent thing which no whit cleered the doubt , but the reason might be retorted against him , and all ascribed to the yoke fellow as a believer , when the term believer is quite omitted , and that ascribed to the believer which is stil elswhere ascribed to the spirit of god , and that expressed as done often and as of ordinary observation , which is expressed in the singular number , and made by the apostle as doubtfull and uncertain . and if these be intricacies and toils the dr. hath had little compassion on me and his reader , who when he might so easily , would not spend a little more time to help me out of them , though spread by himself . the dr. proceeds sect. . his exceptions to the former part of my paraphrase being now ended , i must attend what hee hath to say against the latter part of it , that which concernes our matter in hand more neerly ; the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for else were your children unclean , but now are they holy , i. e. upon that score it is that christians children are admitted to bap●ism , viz. because by their living in the family with the christian parent , they probably will ( and ought to ) be brought up in the faith — and the church ( requiring and receiving promise from the parents ) reasonably presumes they will , and so admits them to baptism . the argument of the apostle thus explained in my paraphrase ( or if he yet will have it more plainly thus , the church upon confidence that the believers children will be brought up in the faith , receives them to baptism when they are infants ; and upon the same grounds of hope , that your abiding with the unbelieving husband may in time convert him ( as by experience it hath oft been found ) i advise you not to depart from him , if he will live with you , for what knowest thou whether thou shalt save thy husband ? &c. ) m. t. hath made a shift not to understand , and substituted another way of arguing in my name , in stead of it , p. . and having done so i must leave him to combate with the shadow of his own creating , no part of his impression lighting upon that which alone i profess to bee my meaning in it , which i leave him or the reader to see , in the particulars proposed by him , but must not now bee so impertinent , as to lose time in the persuit of them . answ. sith the dr. hath disclaimed my good words , and approbation of his ingenuity , ch . . sect . . of this his defence , i shall forbear to commend his ingenuity , but cannot choose but take notice of his shift he makes to avoid the force of my reasons , by bearing the reader in hand that i made a shift not to understand him , that i substitute another way of arguing in his name in stead of it , that i combate with a shadow of my own creating , no part of my impression lighting upon that which alone he professeth to be his meaning in it , and therefore must not now be so impertinent as to lose time in the pursuit of the particulars proposed by me . this is a pretty art to pretend a reason why he need not answer what he cannot ; like his , who when he could not make a good account , devised how he might make none at all . the dr. saith i have substituted another way of arguing in his name in stead of that he hath set down . now sure this intimates that this he sets down was a way of arguing , and calls hi● explications he sets down the argument of the apostle thus explained in his paraphrase in the later way more plainly . but in neither do i find any arguing ascribed to the apostle in the later part of his word ▪ cor. . . but in the former a meer d●claration upon what reason christians children are ( as the dr. conceives the apostle mean● ) admitted to baptism ; in the later , an addition of a paraphrase on the first part of cor. . with his advise according to v. , . and his paraphrase confirmed by v. . nor doth the dr. at all explain those words , else were your children unclean , though those were the words i chiefly insisted on to shew the absurdity his framing the apostles reasoning brought his words to , as the reader may plainly perceive by my words in the d part of my review , sect . . p. , . but to shew the drs. collusion in this thing , the reader may observe . that neith●r in his paraphrase in his th . qu § . . ( though he make it § . . the importance of the apostles words , and force of his arguing ) nor here , doth the dr. set down the true force of the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 else , which in his letter , qu. . § . . ( to which my answer was made , p , , . with which the dr. here cavils ) he terms an argumentative stile . for the expressions [ upon this score , on this one consideration , upon this ground ] are not exclusive terms , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 else is , which implies not onely that the thing is so upon that one consideration , but also that without it it should be otherwise ; nor doth the dr. seem to put them as answering to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 else were , but to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but now . . that ( as i said before ) the dr ▪ doth in neither of these paraphrases set down any thing as answering to [ else were your children unclean ] nor in his letter , qu § . ● ▪ except these words are put to answer them [ yet the children of heathens are not admitted to baptism , ] which me thinks hee should not do , sith [ your children ] is in all his paraphrases [ christians children , believers children ] and therefore i am loth to think him so much overseen ▪ as that he should put [ the children of heathens are not admitted to baptism ] for [ your children were unclean , ] . if he should , he should in that paraphrase much pervert the apostles meaning , by putting that which answers to [ else were your children unclean ] contrary to the apostles order , after that which answers to [ but now are they holy ; ] of which disorder , tending to pervert the apostles meaning , his plainer later paraphrase here is guilty , putting first that which hee conceives answerable to [ but now are they holy , ] and then that which answers to [ the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife , ] and then that which answers to [ v. . let her not leave him , ] and then the th . v. which sure is such a disorder as is very faulty , so deforming the apostles argument , as that its like the leaving out of an arm or eye , the placing of the hand where the eye should be in the painting of a man , whereby he is made a monster . . whereas the dr. defence of baptism , p. . denies that he made the future hopes any part of the sense of [ hath been sanctified , ] in all these paraphrases he sets down nothing but the future hopes , which are no part of the sense by his own confession , but as he imagines , the rational importance , the score , ground , or consideration of admitting children to baptism . and not onely so , but adds more then he makes the rational importance of the term [ hath been sanctified ] in his paraphrase , as that by their living in the family with christian parents , they probably will ( and ought ) to be brought up in the faith , and the church requiring and receiving promise from the parents , reasonably presumes they will. none of which he doth so much as pretend to be the rational importance of [ hath been sanctified , ] but adds them of his own ; and with like fancying might have added , the church doth reasonably presume they will be teachers , officers in the church , martyrs , and what else they could wish them to be i refer it to any sober ingenious scholler to judge , whether such kind of paraphrasing , especially when an argument is drawn from it , as the chief , if not onely pi●lar of the cause , be tollerable . on the other side , that the dr. did make the apostles arguing otherwise , when he refuted the answer to his argument hence , in his letter , qu. . § . . appears by his words there , p. . ( which i cited review par . . pag. . and were those whence i gathered the drs. framing the apostles argument ) when he said , the invalidity of this answer will be discerned first by the method of the apostles arguing in that place , for the co●habiting of the believing wife with the unbelieving husband , &c. because the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified by the believing wife , or else were your children unclean , but now are they holy : that must needs be this , unless there were some hope that the co-habiting of a believer , should be a means to bring an unbeliever to the faith , 't would certainly follow , that their children were unclean ; now putting to it that which he in his paraphrases § . . of his th . qu. in his letter , where he expresseth [ hath been sanctified ] thus , the unbelieving party hath been brought to the faith by the company and conversation of the believer , and [ unclean ] by [ not admitted to baptism , ] and [ holy ] by [ admitted to baptism , ] and [ your children by [ the young children of christians whereof was an unbeliever ; ] and i appeale to any that shall compare my words in the d . part of this review , sect . . p. . where i make this the apostles arguing as the dr. expounds it , [ if some other unbelieving yoke-fellow had not been converted by the faith , diligence , and conversation of the believing party that then was , then the children of you who are believers , but begotten or brought forth by one that yet is an unbeliever , had not been admitted to christian baptism in infancy : but now , that is , upon this score , that some former unbelieving yoke-fellows have been brought to the faith of christ by the faith , conversation , and diligence of the believer , they have been admitted to baptism , ] with the drs. premised arguings and paraphrase in his letter , qu. . § . , . and here , whether i have not rightly set down the apostles argument as the dr. expounds him , and the dr. hath not changed here his frame of the apostles argument to hide the deformity of it , and whether there be any truth in it that i have not understood his paraphrase , that i have substituted another way of arguing in his name in stead of it , or have combated with the shadow of my own creating ; and whether these propositions [ the children of a believing yoke fellow who is joyned to an unbeliever had not been admitted to christian baptism , if some other unbelieving yoke-fellow had not been brought to the faith . the children of a believer by an unbelieving yoke fellow have been admitted to christian baptism , by reason that it hath been usual that other believers have brought the unbeliever to the faith ] are not included in the apostles argument according to the tenour of his reasoning conceived by the dr. and whether there be any shew of connexion in the consequence of the apostle as the dr. expounds it , and whether he hath not shifted in stead of answering , and imputed fiction to me that he might hide his own collusion . sect . xcv . dr. hammonds reasons from the terms holy and unclean for his sense of baptized or not baptized are refelled . the dr. next pretends to vindicate his reasons for his interpretation from my exceptions . my first reason ( saith he ) is , because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , holy , noting a relative holiness , a setting apart to god , and the lowest degree of that imaginable , being the initiating into the church by baptism , this must in reason be here noted by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 holy , as all visible professors , ezr. . . are the holy seed , and in the epistles of the apostles , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 holy . to this he answers , that it being all granted , confirms not the drs. exposition , because 't is no good argument a genere ad speciem affirmativè , and because infants are not visible professors . but sure when the species is such , that he that hath not that , hath not any part of the genus , the argument will thus hold very irrefragably : suppose that of the deacon to be the lowest order of officers in the church , and that without which there is no ascending to any higher degree in the ministery , will not then the argument hold , he hath some degree ecclesiastical upon him , therefore sure he is a deacon ? thus sure it is in this matter , the relative holiness belongs to no person , that is not baptized , baptism is the lowest degree of it , and all superiour degrees of apostle , prophet , &c. in the christian church are founded in that , therefore if the infant children be holy , the infant children are baptized . so again , baptism is the lowest degree of visible profession , therefore if these that are said to be holy are visible professors , then sure they are baptized ; and so there is no force in that whether answer or exception to my first reason . answ. that there is no force to avoid my exception in this reply , may appear . . that he saith nothing to what i said p. . of the d . part of the review , that the term [ holy seed ] ezr. . . hath a far different notion , as i shew in this review antipaed . par . . sect . , . from what the dr. imagines . . nor doth he here , or any where else prove infants to be visible professors . . nor doth he prove baptism to be the lowest degree of visible profession . . nor doth the dr. prove or can prove , that the holiness cor. . . must be meant of a relative holiness , of setting apart to god in the christian visible church , short of real saving holiness . the opinion of matrimonial holiness i assert , with many more , is not yet refuted . they who after tertullian interpret it of real saving holiness intentional , as rom. . . the jews uncalled are holy , designati sanctitati ac per hoc etiam saluti , conceive they have as good proof for it as the dr. for his . . baptism is not proved to be the lowest degree imaginable of relative holiness in the christian church , nor the lowest degree of visible profession . for . there is a lower degree by freedome from idol pollutions , such as tertullian mentions c. . de animá . . there is a degree of holiness by vow or prayer , such as hannah devoted samuel by , sam. . . which josephus antiq . l. . c. . terms consecrating or sanctifying to god , as the greek version terms numb . . , . the separating of the nazarite by vow a sanctifying , and the apostle prayer in the use of food a sanctifying it , tim. . . . there is a lower degree of visible profession in the catechumeni not yet baptized then baptism is . . there is a lower degree of sanctification of them , according to augustine , l. . de pecc . mer. & remis . c. . cited before by the dr. here , p. , . when ●e said , catechumenos secundum quendam modum suum per signum christi & orationem impositionis manuum puto sanctificari , whence the dr. himself saith there , that some kind of sanctification which the unbaptized might have by prayer and imposition of hands , of which we sometimes read in the ancients , as hath elsewhere been shewed . . nor is it proved that a person may not have the higher degree of holiness in the cnurch without baptism . sure a person may be converted , regenerated afore baptism , and so holy . and it is yet a question , whether all the apostles and prophets in the church were baptized , though i doubt not they were , and that regularly they should be ; yet the very questioning it shews the argument not to hold irrefragably , that he that is not baptized hath no part of relative holiness in the church of god , or that all superiour degrees of apostle , prophet , &c. in the christian church are founded in that . lastly , it is apparent that the holiness cor. . . is not baptism , in that it is from the birth , and so afore baptism , and from the parent not from the minister , may be though the child be never baptized , is derived from the lawfulness of marriage society , not from the belief of one or both parents , and therefore not baptism , as the dr. ( so far as i know ) without any example ancient or modern makes it . he adds , my second followes from the notation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 acts . . for those that must not be received into the church , as on the other side gods cleansing is gods reputing him fit to bee partaker of this priviledge , whereby it appears how fitly , receiving and not receiving to baptism ] are exprest by [ holy and unclean . ] to this he answers by acknowledging the conclusion , viz. the fitness of the expression , all his exception is against my premise , the notion of unclean , act. . which , saith hee , signifies there not onely one out of the church , but also one that a jew might not go into or eat with . to this i reply that my conclusion being granted , i may safely part with that , which inferred it , as when i am arrived at my journeys end i have no further need or use of my horse or guide that brought me thither : let it be remembred , that [ holy and unclean ] fitly express those that are received or not received to baptism , and then i am sure i have not offended against the propriety of the words , by concluding from this text , that in the apostles time the believers children were received to baptism ; and if i have as little offended against the rational importance of the words in that place ( as i hope hath formerly appeared that i have ) then i hope i am perfectly innocent in inducing my conclusion . as for the use of the phrase act. . though now i need not contend yet i may add that the notion of not entring to and eating with ▪ containing under it this other of not baptizing ( for sure he might not baptize those to whom he might not enter ) and the baptizing cornelius ( and not onely the entring to him ) being the end for which peter received that vision ) i still adhere that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that place , signifies one peculiarly that must not be received into the church by baptism , and the holiness on the contrary reception to that priviledge . answ. . i granted the fitness of the expression onely conditionally , if the holy ghost had so thought good , but denied the holy ghost did so , and therefore he may offend against the propriety of the words , notwithstanding my concession , and hath as much need of his horse to get to his journeys end , as if i had not yeelded so much . . how much he hath offended against the rational importance of the apostles words cor. . . is shewed before . . were the fitness of the expression absolutely granted , yet with the drs. leave , i conceive he needs to contend about the use of the phrase in his sense , or else he will not be able to infer any thing for his purpose , sith it is not the fitness of an expression , but the use of words which must direct us in our expositions , as being vis & norma loquendi . . that the use of it acts . . is not for the drs. purpose is manifest . for . the dr. thus expounds common or unclean by not received to baptism , now if this were the notion of unclean ac●s . . then when peter saith [ i have never eaten any thing common or unclean ] hee meanes hee never eat any thing nor received into the church by baptism ; and when v. . it is said [ what god hath cleansed that call thou not common ] the meaning is , what god hath baptized reject thou not from baptism , which is too ridiculous an exposition to be urged . . if it be said that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or covered sense doth import it , neither is that true . for . it is certain that in the latent meaning , the apostle discerned by the vision that which is common or unclean to be meant v. . of one of another nation , and the eating , keeping company , or going to , which is also gathered from acts . . where the thing objected was , that he went in to the uncircumcised , and did eat with them . so that from hence it is manifest , that the proper notion of unclean is ( in that place according to the subsense which the vision aimed at ) one that being uncircumcised might not be gone into to talk with familiarly , and and eat with , though he were one that feared god. which cannot bee meant of want of baptism , for so the clean , to wit , the unbelieving jews were unclean , they were not baptized with christian baptism , but of exclusion from familiar society and converse . . on the other side , by acts . . what god hath cleansed that call thou not common , peter v. . shews he understood allowance to go to him , preach to him , eat with him , as one accepted of god , v. . so that the cleansing is the taking away of that restraint which was upon the jewes , of converse with the gentiles . which being considered , if unclean acts . . were to be expounded in the same notion which the dr. imagines to be cor. . . not admitted to the church by baptism , then when god bid peter count nothing common or unclean , he bid him count no gentile unbaptized , and when he said what god hath cleansed , it should be whom god hath baptized , or admitted by baptism into the church . and when the apostle according to the dr. useth unclean cor. . . in the notion in which it is used acts . . he should mean , your young children were such as a man might not go into , converse with , talke with familiarly , eat with , which certainly being meant of infants as the dr. conceives , is so ridiculus an exposition , as a sober man would not put upon any profane author , much less on the sacred writers . as for that which the dr. saith , that the notion of not entring to , and eating with , contained under it this other of not baptizing , for sure hee might not baptize those to whom he might not enter ; it is so frivolous , as that it is unfit for a man that takes on him to make annotations on the new testament . for if this were good reasoning , it would follow on the contrary , every ones going in to , and eating with one , were baptizing ; and sith others then apostles or preachers were to go into or not , they were to baptize or not to baptize , and all that men might not go into or eat with , as excommunicate persons they must bee unbaptized , and by the same reason , sith sure a minister may not admit to the lords supper , nor a bishop ordain him for a priest , to whom he might not enter ; the notion of not entring to and eating with , contained under it this other of not communicating and not ordaining , and consequently holy contains under it communicating , and ordaining , and so your young children are not unclean but holy , should bee by this very reasoning expounded , they are admitted to the lords supper , and ordained priests . and what he adds ; and the baptizing cornelius ( and not onely entring to him ) being the end for which peter received that vision , i still adhere that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that place , signifies one peculiarly that must not be received into the church by baptism , and the holiness on the contrary reception to that priviledge , may as well serve to prove unclean hath the notion of one excluded from the lords supper , or heaven , and holy on the contrary the reception to these , sith these were the ends of peters going in , as well as baptizing , and so to say your young children are holy , shall be as much as your young children are admitted to the lords supper and to heaven . these conceits of the dr. go upon two gross mistakes . . as if unclean were used in a sense suitable to the ecclesiastical practise in the christian church , whereas it is used according to the use and conceipt of the jews peculiarly . . as if the notion of a word did ex●end to the concomitants and ends of the act expressed by it ; which if true , then election , regeneration , should have the notion of justifying and glorifying , preaching the notion of adoption and sanctification . but enough of this raw conceit of the doctor , he goe● on thus . my third reason , saith hee , being taken from the use of the hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to sanctifie , for washing any part of the body , and on occasion of that , mentioning a conjecture that the use of holiness for baptism , might perhaps intimate that the primitive bapti●ms were not always immersions , but that sprinkling of some part might be sufficicient ; he hath a reply to each of these : to the former , that if this reason were good , then the husbands being sanctified by the wife , must signifie his being baptized or washed by her ; to the latter , that i have in my writings so oft acknowledged the baptism of the jews and christians to be immersion of the whole body , that i ought to be ashamed to say the contrary , and that i can hardly believe my self in it . to these i answer , first to the former . . that i that affirm sanctifications among the jews to signifie washings , do also know that it hath other significations , and that that signification is in each text to bee chosen , which seems most agreeable in all those respects which are to be considerable in the pitching on any interpretation ; consequently that the wives baptizing the husband being a thing absurd and utterly unheard of in the church of god , whether in the apostles or succeeding ages , this sense may not reasonably be affixt to it ; whereas the baptizing of infants being by the ancients affirmed to be received from the apostles , it is most reasonable to understand the words of this , though not of the other ( and so to apply the observation ( as it is visible i did ) to the latter , not former part of the verse . answ. this is no answer , but a grant that the sanctifying cor. . . cannot be meant of baptizing , sith it is absurd so to expound it ; and consequently , a yeelding the argument from the calling the jews washings sanctifications , to have no force . nor doth he at all help himself by saying , it is most reasonable to apply it to the latter part of the v. for there is no reason in it , that because the jewes use the word sanctification for baptism , therefore holy ( which is another word , and in another predicament then sanctified , which is in passion , and the other in quality or relation ) and not sanctified cor. . . is as much as baptism , and because the word sanctifications hath other significations then washings , and may not be understood of baptism in the fore-part of cor. . . therefore holy , no where proved to be as much as baptized , is as much as admitted to the church by baptism ▪ and because the ancients mention infant baptism to be received from the apostles , as they do other unwritten traditions of observing easter , l●nt , giving infants the communion , &c. therefore holy cor. . . must be without any example in scripture or father of that use of the word , bee expounded thus [ admitted in the church by baptism . ] but yet the dr. is loth to confess his errour , but adds . and yet . if we shall distinguish of the notion of [ by ] and expound [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by the woman ] of the perswasion , that the woman hath used to bring her husband to baptism , and not of her ministry in b●ptizing ▪ wee may very conveniently so interpret the former part of the verse also that by the woman , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the unbelieving husband hath been brought to baptism , viz. by being brought to faith , to which this priviledge belongs . answ. . the dr. brings no example of such a notion of [ by ] or of such a use of the term [ san●tified ] any where else , and how ill it suits with the apostles argument , is shewed fully before . . but were it yeelded him , . it would shew that th● alledging of the jews calling their washings sanctifications , to expound cor. . , by was impertinent , the jews sanctifications being not b● perswasion of another , but of themselves according to gods appointment , nor do they note first bringing to the faith , and then admission by another to baptism but washing themselves ; and that is one reason why neither the use of sanctified nor holy , cor. . . can be conceived to be allusive ●o the jewish sanctifications mentioned by the dr. sith in 〈…〉 high priest washed himself , and but his hands and his feet 〈…〉 , but christian baptism was by the ministry of another , by imm●●●sion of the whole body , and therefore this third reason of the dr. is altogether in ●●●bable . . if [ sanctified cor. . . ] be to be 〈◊〉 [ brought to the faith , and so to baptism ] [ holy is in like sort so be expounded , and then we might allow the drs. exposition of [ holy cor. . ] wit●out any detriment to our cause , it being granted the children of believers were brought to the faith , and so to baptism . again saith the dr. as for his second exceptions to my conje●ture , founded in the use of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 san●tifications for partial , not total ●ashing● . . i answer , that i mention it onely as a con●ecture , with a perhaps and lay no more weight u●on it . . that for christian baptism i no whe●e affi●m that it was onely by immersion , nor on the other side that it was alway● by sp●●●kling but disjun●tively , either by one or the other ( as by the word● cited by him from prac . cat . l. ●ect . is clear ) supposing indeed that christs appointment was not terminated to either , and so satisfied by either . answ. . the dr. by putting in his conjecture , shewed his willingness to have maintained by some colour , the abuse of sprinkling in stead of baptism , which his own words cited by me , made me f●ar hee did against his own light , and the contrary is not cleered by this slight excuse . . the drs. own words alledged by me , plainly shewed that he knew the primitive baptisms were alwayes immersions of the whole body , nor was any other use of water for baptism , till the corrupt use of the circumfusion of the clinici in the third century began . nor do his words practic cat . l. . sect . . cleer the contrary to be conceived by him ; for when he saith by christs appointment whosoever should bee thus received into his family , should he received with this ceremony of water , therein to be dipt , i. e. according to the primitive ancient custome , to be put under water three times ; and then a●ds , or instead of that to bee sprinkled with it ; though he make christs appointment disjunctively the one or the other , yet he makes the primitive ancient custome , onely to bee by putting under water ; as in like manner p. . and this was indeed the ancient primitive custome , a rom. . , . col . . shew , and the known sa●ing of tertullian ●er me●gitamur . and of any one , dr. hammond should acknowledg● it , who distinguisheth the sanctifications of a part from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is baptism , and saith , the jewish solemnity of baptism ▪ which he would have the original and pa●tern of our baptism , to be the washing of the whole body . as for his propounding christs appointmen● disjunctively , it discovers more of his audacious and corrupt dealing by ma●ing that appointment , which is but one way disjunctive , either that wa● w●ich is acknowledged to be christs , or another way in stead of it , whic● cannot be shewn to have been practised by the apostles , or any apostolical men in the primitive times . and in this thing it is necessary that ●he ●●il dealing of dr. hammond , mr. baxter , and oth●rs , be shewed , who do most presumptuously add to the ordinance of baptism● when christ h●th appointed onel● dipping , they add sprinkling ; when christ appoints onely disciples made by preaching the gospel to be baptized , they add infants who are not such , and by a fictitious title ma●e them disciples by their parents faith , who learn and profes● nothing themselves ; ( which he that read● considerately mr. baxters arguments in his ● . disputation of the right to sacraments , may see sufficiently refuted , and may think he could not write that book without regret of conscie●ce for what hee had written in his book of baptism ) and when the new testament makes none members of the visible church christian , but professors of faith , they add infants of their own head ; ●nd when the scripture and fathers in setting down the institution and practise of baptism , plainly express both so , as that they confess them to bee onely meant of the aged , yet would have them to include also infants , contrary to the pl●in words and their own confessions , and in their expositions so expound the texts , as expressing onely what agrees to the aged , and yet in their arguments urge the same for baptizing of infants , which they could not do if they did not plead for infant baptism against heir own light , or were not extremely heedless at one time of what they say at another : how ever it be with them , sure i am , no conscientious christian hath reason to be satisfied by sprinkling , when christ hath appointed no other then dipping , nor with infant baptism ▪ when as mr. baxter hath fully proved in his d . disput . that there is a necessi●y of profession of repentance and faith before ▪ and none are to bee baptized but those that are first professed disciples of christ ; and though he supposeth believers children disciples , and the parents profession to be instead of their own , yet no where proves it , nor offers any proof , but what is meerly conjectural , nor can any pastours or teachers of churches , without most arrogant presumption baptize or take for visible churchmembers infants , whom neither christ , nor his apostles did baptize or take for such . but i return to the dr. my last reason , saith he , is taken from the effect of the legal uncleanness contrary to those their sanctifications , viz. removing men from the congregation ; agreeable to which it is that those should bee called holy , who in the account of god stood so , that they might be received into the church . to this he answers , that it is said without proof that the uncleanness excluding from , and sanctification restoring to the tabernacle , are proportionable to the notion here given , of the childrens bei●g excluded or included in the church , asking why cornelius should be counted out of the church being a devout man ? but to this i reply , that that which is so manifest needed no further proof , for what two things can be more proportionable , or answerable the one to the other , then the jews calling those unclean and holy , who were excluded from and restored to the tabernacle , and the christians calling them unclean , and holy that were excluded from and received into the church , the exclusion and reception being the same on both sides , as also the uncleanness and holiness , and the proportion lying onely betwixt the jewish tabernacle , and the christian church , which surely are very fit parallels as could have been thought on . answ. were it so , yet it had been necessary to have proved the holy ghost made them parallels , that from the answerableness a reason might be taken to prove thence the sense of holy and unclean cor. . . after the drs. minde : for it is not the fitness of an expression , that must prove the sense we would , but the use and the matter of the speech , in which the drs. expositions are defective . but the holy ghost no where that i know resembles the meer visible church by the tabernacle , but the invisible , in which the spirit of god dwels , or rather every believing saint , cor. . , . & . . heb. . . tim. . . or the body of christ , joh. . . heb. . . or heaven , heb. . . and the uncleanness resembled by the legal uncleanness , is such as excludes , and the holiness such as admits into communion with god , union with christ , entrance into heaven , cor. . , . revel . . . and the sanctification resembled by the jewish washings , is that which is invisible by the spirit , cor. . . not meer outward baptism , and therefore if proportion or agreeableness could prove a sense of those terms the sense would be fairer for the expounding of holiness rather of real then relative holiness . the dr. adds , as for his question of cornelius , it is most vain , the whole discourse being not of real but relative sanctification , and the difference most visible betwixt that sanctity which was truly in him in respect of his devotion , fearing , praying , &c. and that outward priviledge of admission into the congregation of the jews , which alone was the thing which in the account of god or sober men was denied cornelius . these be pitifull sophisms , and in no reason farther to be insisted on . answ. all the discourse is not about meere relative sanctification , sure dr. hammond when he expounds sanctified cor. . . by being converted to the faith , and the same with saved v . means it of real sanctification . but were all the discourse about relative sanctification , yet the question was not vain , but attains the end for which propounded , sith cornelius accounted unclean by peter , acts . . was not out of the church of god , no not out of the church visible , being of good report among all the nation of the jews , acts . . though he were not in the policy of israel , and therefore uncleanness hath another notion then the non-admission into the visible church christian by baptism , of which is enough said before . nor are any of these things i alledge sophisms , but plain answers , nor any otherwise pittifull , then that they meet with such a such a superficial and slight reply from the dr. of the different interpretatio●s from the drs. of cor. . . in tertullian c. . de animâ , and augustin l. . de pecc . mer. & remis . c. . and l. . c. . enough before . and hieromes different interpretation , is that which is in the comment . on cor. . . in these words left out by the dr. item ide● vir & uxor invicem sanctificantur ; quia ex traditione dei sanctae sunt nuptiae , mentioned here before sect . . and ambrose or who ever was the author of that commentary under his name in locum operum tom . . sancti sunt ] quia de conjugiis legitimis natis , both which agree with my exposition . the two testimonies the dr. brings out of cyprian and nazianzen are impertinent , the former makes a distinction between baptizandum and sanctificandum , the latter if it call baptism sanctification , yet it doth nor call baptism sanctity , the word ascribed to children cor. . . and therefore rather the first part of the v. is to be expounded if any thus , sanctified id est baptized , which yeelds such a sense as the dr. will not own , and is shewed before not at all to be satisfied by him . neither the antiquity of cyprian , nor gregory nazianzen's skill in greek assures us they understood the sacred dialect . how much tertullian , whom cyprian counted his master , and how much origen of whom gregory nazianzen learned , mistook the meaning of scripture , and generally the fathers , may be discerned by their writings remaining , or if any list to take a short cut to satisfie himself , he may see much in sixt. senens . biblioth . l. . and . in the th . ch . sect . . of dr. hammonds defence there is little or nothing which at present i need reply to much of it being spoken to before . onely i have thought it necessary to go back besides my first purpose to review the two first chapters of his defence , because he doth so often tell me , that i do inartificially deny his conclusion without answering to his premises . sect . xcvi . the jewish custome of baptism for initiation , was not the pattern of christian baptism ; as dr. hammond would have it . ch. . sect. . of his defence dr. hammond having excepted against my words about waving ( though it were his own term qu. § . . ) the more imperfect ways of probation tels us ; though infant circumcision prove not infant baptism a duty , yet it evidences the lawfulness and fitness of it among christians by analogy with gods institution of circumcision among the jews , and so certainly invalidates all the arguments of the antipaedobaptist ( i. e. of mr. t. ) drawn from the incapacity of infants from the pretended necessity that preaching should go before baptizing from the qualifications required of those that are baptized , &c. for all these objections lying and being equally in force against circumcising of infants , &c. and this the rather , because the apostle compares ●aptism of christians with circumcision , col. ● . , . and then adds some savings of fathers , which are of no validity for his purpose of the other there● nothing true . for the arguments drawn from incapacity , fore going necessity of preaching , qualifications , have their force from the institution of baptism by car●t , which lye not at all against the circumcising infants , which hath another institution , and hath no analogy with baptism to acqui● infant baptism for unlawfulness or unfitness , except the dr. can prove ( which i am sure he can never do ) that the church ( as in the prelatical language he useth to speak ) hath power to make that lawfull and fit to be done in the sacraments of christ , which is otherwise th●n christ hath appointed . the apostle doth not at all compare baptism of christians with circumcision , col. . , . but these things are so fully argued review part . sect , &c. here sect . ▪ that till these sections are better answered then dr. hammond doth here , the arguments will be valid against infant baptism . the force of the drs. urging christs actions to little ones , mark . . matth. . . is so little as that in his letter qu. . § . . he confesseth they come not home distinctly to the baptizing of infants , nor do they prove any unreasonableness or uncharitableness in our objections against their baptizing of them , whom the dr. affirms not either christ or his apostles to have baptized , who had reason and charity enough to have done it , if th●● had judged i● fit to have been done . that matth. . is ridiculously applied to little children in age , is demonstrate review part . . sect . . augustins saving credit in altero qui peccavit in altero , and his reckoning infants baptized among believers , is besides the book , i mean the scripture , and to be judged as no better then a fond conceit . the lawfull b●ptizing of some professors of faith who prove hypocrites , is no colour ●o baptize non professors of faith . 't is rightly done , that that which contains no relation of christs or his apostles baptising infants , is put by him among the more imperfect probations , and such his alleging cor. . . is already shewed to be . that which the dr. saith sect. . that the fathers with one consent testifie the receiving our infants to baptism , to bee received from the apostles as the will of christ himself , is so manifestly false , that , the very first of the fathers who makes mention of it tertullian in his book of baptism ch . . disswades it and useth arguments against it , and those arguments as well are against the believers infants baptism as the unbelievers , whereby it is evident he opposed the baptism of any infants ; whereto might be a d●d the case of nazianzen , together with his judgement forementioned , as evidences that infant baptism was not the judgement and practice o● the universal church for . years . the dr. himself confesseth that peter de bruis and henry his scholler , and the petrobuciani and henriciani that sprung from them were opposers of it : and therefore the dr ▪ doth very much exc●ed truth in making it the judgment and practice of the universal church for years the term [ son of the church ] used by the dr. 〈…〉 by ●anonists , and others , and it is usual to term the church a christians mother , and by the church the prelates are usually meant , and much advantage made of it to keep christians under the yoke of bishops 〈◊〉 . but it is no scripture term : in it the elders , apostle , 〈◊〉 ●ermed fathers , cor ● . . all christians brethren and sister cor 〈…〉 ●hurch being no other then a company of b●ethen and sisters , it is very unfit to call the church a christians mother , and therefore 〈◊〉 willing not to be accounted a son of the church , nor do i acknowledge that the judgement and practise ( i● there were any such ) of the universal church for years ( letting aside the apostles of christ ) ha●h any force or authority over me , nor do i fear the incurring of gods displeasure by oppugning or contemning it , but rather considering how the apostle thes. . . tels me , that in his time the mystery of iniquity did begin to work , and the vain altercations about easter in the d . century , and many other mistakes and blemishes even in the apostles times and much more after , together with the prediction of the falling away tim. . ● . the exceptions against the seven churches of asia 〈◊〉 our lord christ himself , the imperfections that are in the writings of the first fathers after the ap●stles , the exceptions against the histories of the church , the imposing on the church suppositions treatises , the co●rupting of authors , i think i● the safest way to avoid gods displ●asure , not ●o rest on the practise or judgement of the universal church ( i● there were any such ) after the apostles , but onely on the writ●ngs of the new testament , it being highly unreasonable , as the dr. saith , that ●n institution of christs such as each sacrament is should bee judged of by any other rule ( whether the phan●es or reasons of men ) but either the word wherein the institution is set down , o● the records of the practise of christ or his apostles in scripture , which comes home to the deciding 〈◊〉 c●ntroversie of faith and manners ▪ and 〈…〉 to be ob●erved , and needs not the drs ▪ records besides scripture however conserved or made known to us , whether by unwritten tradition , or in the writings of fathers , in which there is very much uncertainty , but do deter men from adhering to this way as the inlet to many popish , and prelatical abuses and errours ; yet deny not good use may be made of the ancient writers for clearing of many truths , if they be read with judgement , and do resolve to review what hath been brought for infant baptism by the dr. out of other writers besides holy scripture . sect. . the dr. complains of mee , as doing some injury to his book in leaving out one considerable , if not principal part , viz. that which concerned the native jewish children , who were baptized as solemnly , as the proselytes and their chi●dren . ans. but by the drs. leave , in this no injury i● done him : for however he mentioned letter of resol . qu. sect . , . baptism as a known rite solemnly used among the jews in the initiating of jews and proselytes into the covenant , yet both the words i allege review part . . sect . . out of his letter q. . § . . and all other passages i yet finde in his writings , make the christian baptism of believers and their infants , to bee from the jewish custome of baptising proselytes , and children as the pattern , basis or foundation of it , no where the baptism of native jewes , is made the pattern of christian baptism , though he say § . . the baptism of the native jews was the pattern by which the baptism of the proselytes was regulated , and wherein it was founded . yea the dr. in his practical catechism l. . sect . . saith , that as among the jews when any proselyte was received in among them and entred , or initiated into their church , they were wont to use washings to denote their forsaking or washing off from them all their former prophane heathen practises ( which did not agree to the native jews ) so by christs appointment , whosoever should be thus received into his family , should bee received with this ceremony of water , therein to be dipt , i. e. according to the primitive ancient custome , to be put under water three times ; and in his letter qu. . § . . so it is directly the thing that the jewish practise , in which christ founded his institution , hath laid the foundation of in baptising proselytes and their children , and to which the primitive church conformed . to which i may add , that the proof which the dr. brings for baptising of infants from christs appointment , is thus expressed qu. . § . . receiving of disciples was the receiving of proselytes to the covenant and faith of christ , a disciple and a proselyte being perfectly all one , save onely that the latter denotes a comming from other nation , &c. which shews , that he made the baptising of proselytes and their children onely , the pattern of christian baptism . next the dr. sets down his proofs out of the talmud , gemara , and maimonides , and then concludes ; and now i may , i hope assume , that not onely there is perfect truth in what i now affirm ; that baptism among the jews belonged to their natives as well as to proselytes ( even to all that entred into covenant , and those evidently were the jewish children as well as men ) but also that this had before been evidenced in that resolution of the fourth quaere , which here mr. t. hath been pleased to examine , and consequently that it was no small injustice , and unkindness in him both to the reader and to me , that hee would omit to take notice of it , but assume and build on it as a thing yeilded and granted him by my discourse , that the proselytes only and not the native jews were partakers of that jewish baptism . this sure was a strange infirmity in an answer . answ. it is a stranger infirmity in a reply , that whereas i had expresly in the d . part of my review sect . . p. . said , after the baptism exod. . ● . the jews did not baptize jews but onely proselytes , the dr. should not take notice , that i limited my denial of the baptizing the native jews , to the time after the baptism exod. . . now i think there is not one of his allegations prove , that the jews baptized native jews after the giving of the law. i confess i was unwilling to relye on mine own judgement in this , or mr. seldens , because the dr. excepts against it ( though i thought and think still mr. selden was in the right in this , and of any man living i imagined his knowledge in things of this kind , to be most accurate and ample ) and therefore did write a letter to my ancient acquaintance mr. edward pocock professor of the oriental languages in oxford , to inform mee if i were mistaken : but whether by reason of his bodily infirmity , or miscariage of letters , or other cause ▪ i have received as yet no answer . at present having not the 〈◊〉 cited by dr. hammond , i return this answer , that none of the words as he cites them , shew that baptism was to the posterity of native jewes 〈…〉 ●he giving of the law f●r entring the covenant , not the 〈…〉 . tr . de repud . israel do not enter into covenant but by these th●●e things , by circumcision ▪ by baptizing , and by peace offering . nor these in gemara ad tit . cherithoth . c. . your fathers did not enter into the covenant but by circumcis●on and baptism , and in jabimoth c. . rabbi joshua said , we find of our mothers that they were baptized and not circumcised . nor those of maimonides tit isu●bia . c. . by three things the israelites entred into the covenant , by circumcision , baptism and sacrifice , and soon after , what was done to you , yee were initiated into the covenant by circumcision , and baptism , and sacrifice . for that out of gemara , the very words ( as the doctor himself observes ) speak of what the jews did of old time , not what was a custome continued among the jews in after times , and so i make no question but the words of the talmud are to be understood , specially when the words of maimonides counted the exactest of the rabbins in the jewish customes , set down thus out of maimon . in mis. tom . . in issurei biah ch . . § . , — , , , . do plainly shew this to have been the meaning of the hebrew drs. as i find them in ainsworth annot. on gen. . . by three things ( say the hebrew drs. ) did israel enter into the covenant , by circumcision , and baptism , and sacrifice . circumcision was in aegypt , as it is written , no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof , [ exod . . . ] baptism was in the wilderness before the giving of the law : as it is written , sanctifie them to day and to morrow , and let them wash their clothes [ exod. . . ] and sacrifice , as it is said , and hee sent young men of the sons of israel , which offered burnt offerings , &c. [ exod. . . ] and so in all ages when an ethnick is willing to enter into the covenant , and gather himself under the wings of the majesty of god , and take upon him the yoke of the law , he must be circumcised , and baptized , and bring a sacrifice . and if it bee a woman , she must be baptized and bring a sacrifice ; as it is written [ numb . . . ] as ye are , so shall the stranger be . how are ye ? by circumcision , and baptism , and bringing of a sacrifice : so likewise the stranger throughout all generations , by circumcision , and baptism , and bringing a sacrifice . out of which words this may bee collected . . that the baptizing of israel whereby they entred into covenant , was that exod. . . . that there is not in these passages any thing that shews , that the jewish baptism for entring into covenant , was of native jews after that time . . that the baptism throughout all generations , according to the jews , was of strangers . . that the jewish baptism , which was the pattern of proselytes baptism , according to numb . . . was the baptism exod. . . and not any baptism of native jews after that time . which if true , dr. hammonds reasons and allegations are plainly answered , that they prove not a custome of baptizing native jews in successive generations , to the time of giving the law at mount sinai . in which i am the more confirmed , because so learned a man as mr. selden l. . de jure nat . c. . de syn. ed. eb● . l. . c. . doth so expresly say it , but also , . because of the speech of the rabbin mentioned here by the dr. and in his letter q § . . who said , that they found that their fathers were circumcised , but not bapt●zed , that is ordinarily , which the drs. parenthesis seems to limit to abraham , isaac , &c. but is to be understood of the pa●riarchs generally , and other jewish ancestors , who were circumcised and not baptized . . because there is no other bap●ism in all the old testament , for entring into the covenant of the law , of originary or native jews mentioned . 't is true there is mention of ezek. . . of washing an infant in the day of its nativity i● supple it , and in the law many baptisms were heb. . for purifications , none for entring into covenant , that i find but that . . in the relation of the sichemites being admitted to be one people with the jews , gen. . . circumcision onely was then required without baptism . . where in the n. t ▪ the apostle ascribes to the fathers baptism , he doth not mention baptism of water , but their passing through the sea , and being under the cloud , cor. . , . for which baptism of water had been ●pter to shew correspondence to our baptism , if such a custome of baptizing for entring into the covenant native jews had been then in use . . dr. hammond himself , pract . catech. l. se●● . saith , that among the jews when any proselyte was received in among them and entred , or initiated into their church , they were wont to use washings , to denote their forsaking or washing off from them all their former prophane heathen practises , but this could not be an end in the baptizing of native jews ordinarily , for they were not born in uncleanness , but sancti●y , according to the hebrew doctors , having not been polluted with idols , and therefore the end or reason of baptizing proselytes not agreeing to the native jews that baptism was not requisite to them , and therfore used not ordinarily of them . it is true when they had gotten strange gods among them , which defiled them , they were required to be clean and change their garments , gen. . . and perhaps some defilement of the israelites by idol● in egypt , might occasion that command , exo. . . but there was no reason of this in the ordinary entring of the infants of israel into the covenant , who were not thus defiled . . the baptism of john baptist for remission of sins was distastfull to the pharisees and lawyers who thought themselves pure , luk. . , . therefore it is likely they us●d not such a baptism of native jews , as imported an acknowledgement of such defilement as they took themselves and infants to be free from . . the dr. saith letter of resol . qu. th . § . . they that were thus baptized were said to be born again , and that , as if born of a new mother , as it is oft said in the talmud , to which our saviour refers , when he talks of regeneration ( of which saith s. paul , baptism is the laver ) of being born again from above of water , &c. joh. . , . and this was so vulgar a notion among the jews that v. . christ wonders at nicodemus , that he understood it not : art thou a ruler in israel and knowest not these things ? but if there were such a regeneration by water of native israelites , which had been the pattern of the baptism of proselytes , nicodemus doubtless had known it and answered otherwise , therefore his wonderment was that christ should require regeneration of him by water , who was a jew by nature ( who need no such regeneration ) and not a sinner of the gentiles , and consequently no such known custome ordinary of baptizing native jews . . the dr. ibid § . . saith , ●hey that were thus received as proselytes by baptism put off their former relations of kinred , &c. to which surely our saviour refers , when he talks of leaving father and mother mark . . and tacitus the historian , nec quicquam prius imbuuntur quàm exuere patriam , parentes , liberos , fratres vilia habere ; their proselytes are first taught after renouncing the gods , to put off their countrey , parents , children , brethren , to despise them . and the later jews have a saying , that he tha● hath maried his own sister , or entred any the most incestuous bands , by becoming a proselyte cease●h to have that near relation of bloud to her , and may 〈…〉 with her as with a ●ife : which false su●erstructure in them is ye● a testimony of ●he truth , whereon it is falsly founded by them and this is a testimony also of this , that the jews did not thus baptize native jews , because they never allowed such incest , at they would have done , if they had by baptism regene●ated thus native jews , and conceived of the effect of it , as they did of proselytes baptism . . we read of the circumcision of christ , john baptist , timothy , paul , but wee read not of their baptism by water as the custome of the jewes was to enter into the covenant proselytes ; therefore there was not a custome of baptizing native jewes infants . . there 's no way mentioned of initiating jewish females by any ceremony into judaism , no description in the talmud , gemara , maimonides , of observing any such thing as the dr. sets down letter of resol . q. . sect . . concerning proselytes to have been used towards the jews , sundry of the things done to the proselytes at their baptism , were such as were proper to strangers ; as namely , the baptizing into the name of a freed man or a servant , the limitation of the priviledges of the baptized , which are evidences that this baptism was not used to native jews , but onely to gentile proselytes . all which being considered , there was neither unkindness , nor injustice to dr. hammond or his reader in my discourse , and it is necessary for him to consider better the considerations which i have offered in this matter ( unless hee will become non-suit ) which have certainly force in them , though this thing were omitted by me , which yet was not perfectly omitted ( as his language is ) by me , nor the contrary supposed without proof . but the dr. however refuseth not to attend me in all my motions , and i hope i shall at long running overtake him . to what i said , baptism , it seems was a custome of all nations as well as the jews , ci●ing grotius for it on matth. . . and matth. . . the dr. answers , of the truth of this observation i shall raise no question , onely i wonder what he could fancy from thence to conclude for his advantage , and then he fals to ●onjecturing . but by my words he might have easily res●lved himself what i aimed at in this , to wit , to shew the jews baptism of parents and children is not undeniably proved to be the pattern of christian baptism , and christs institution of baptism but a copy according to that pattern , i● i● bee true that it were derived from the ●ame common fountain , the ●ons of noah in remembrance of the deluge , according to that famous verse among the greeks , the sea sweeps away all the evils of men , to which s. pe●●● alludes in making baptism the ant●type ●o noahs floud , which the dr ye●ds . to this i added , that i knew not that dr. h. or any o●her h●th alleged one passage in scripture or any of the fathers , that might evince that the custome of baptizing , or baptizing infants , was derived from the jews initiating proselytes by baptism . to this , saith dr. h i answer , . by asking mr. t. whether he be ready to pay th●t reverence to the authority of the fathers , as to bee concluded by their affirmations ? to which i say , i am ready to pay that reverence to the fathers which is meet , but to be concluded by their affirmations is more then is fi● , t●e same liberty is to be allowed mee , which learned men take usually to diss●n● from them , when scripture or reason lead another way . he ●aith , if he be wonder why the uniform consent of them that infants are to be baptized should not prevail with him ? answ. and i wonder . that the dr. should pretend an uniform consent of the fathers , that infants are to be baptized , when for the two first ages , there 's not any just evidence of the consent of one father for it ; in t●e third there is a dissent of tertullian , and in the th . of nazianzen , and the rarity of its use ; and tha● upon such erroneous grounds , as it was practi●ed with infant communion , which had alike consent , and in so ridiculous a manner , as to propound questions of its faith and devoti●n to an infant , who could not understand or speak , and put in others to undertake and answer for an infant , who could neither promise for them wi●h●ut arrogant presumption what was not in their power , no● profess their faith without apparent untruth argue it to have been a corruption . . that the uniform consent of the apostles and apostolical men , with christ and john bapti●● in scripture , should not more prevail with a man who makes the scripture his canon , then fathers of those ages , wherein ma●y errours and corruptions were received , and either hatched or fostered by them , but that hee should not onely dare to practise the corrupt innovation of infant baptism ▪ of which there is no instance in scripture , but also omit the baptism of believers , and oppose it , and harden men in their conceits , as if they were baptized in infancy sufficiently , and for that reason to b●e reckoned among christians , though meer strangers from the knowledge or practise of christianity . he adds , if he be not , why doth he mention this as usefull in this matter ? answ. to shew how little credit is to be given to the drs. dictates without proof . the dr. adds . but then dly , it must be adverted that this one containing two questions in it , . whether this of initiating into the covenant by baptism were a jewish custome ? . whether from thence christ derived this right of baptizing christians ? the former of these was that which alone required proving , the latter being of it self evident , without fa●ther p●obation ; supposing onely that the fathers testified that to b● christs institutio● of baptism , which we find to have been thus agreeable to the p●actise customary among the jewes . and this ●e illustrates by the like examples of excommunication , and the post . c●nium , from whence he conc● vs christ derived the lords supper and excommunication by the apostles . answ. for p●esent , omitting the instances of the lords supper , as d●ive fro● the jewish post c●nium , and excommunication apostolical r●sp●ct jewi●● , it hath been yeeld●d by me , that christian baptism was in 〈◊〉 of the rite like jewish baptism of proselytes , acknowledged to hav● been a custome among them for initiating them ( not of native jews 〈◊〉 the giving of the law ) into the covenant , and it is probable that j●hn baptist foll●wed in the external act that rite , though to another end , he b●ptizing with the baptism of repentance for remission of sins , they into he observance of the law for righteousness , and other subjects ; john baptist ●ews by nature , not so pharises . and as john ●aptist practised , so christ appointed , and his apostles practised baptism with express mention of the trinity or the name of christ somewhat differently f●om john : and if the one be said to be derived from the other by way of accommodation , i shall not contend about it , nor do i de●y tha● christ alluded to this baptism of proselytes , joh. . , . in the manner i have expressed before , and the d . part of this review sect . . nor do i ●eny that the jewish , christian , and gentile baptisms may have their first ri●e from noahs deluge , but that which i insist on ●s , that the jewish use was was not so conformable to the christian , as that it can be true that the jewish was th● pattern of the christian. as for the fathers ▪ nazianzen , ma●arius ▪ athanasius , their words seem not to m● to make a comparison between the bap●ism jewi●h and christian for initiation , but the christian and jewish which was occasionally renewed upon any legal defilement , or often ite●ated by the priests for purification or sanctifying and so the words of athanasius cited by the dr. in●imate , which say , the d. is the legal baptism which the hebrews had , whereby every unclean person ( not ●very one who was so by natu●e , as the dr. a●ds , but by accident ) was baptised in water ( as oft as he was defiled ) had his garment● washed , and so en●red into the camp ; whic● was ano●her baptism then that t●e dr. makes the pattern of christian baptism , to wit , that which was once onely used for initiation , and of this i think the dr. findes no mention in the fathers , nor of the derivation of christian baptism from it . that which the dr. saith sect . . p. . from the talmud , that when a proselyte is received he must be circumcised , and then when hee is cured , they shall baptise him in the presence of two wise men , saying , behold he is as an israelite in all things ; addi●g , a plain testimony ( to the sense of those which we formerly produced ) of baptising both jews and proselyte , ( for else how could the proselyte , upon receiving this , be said to be a israelite in all things ? ) answ. two wayes ; . in respect of the rite , he was circumcised and baptised , as the israelites at the giving of the law exod. . . ( not after that time ) were baptised ; an● the proselytes p●sterity were then not after this time of the first initiation into the jewish people . . in respect of priviledges and profession , as it is said ester . . many of the people of the land became jews . neither this then nor the other , are plain or obscure testimonies of baptising native jews , for ini●iating into the covenant af●er the giving of the law. that which i said that i alleged , that mr. selden de syned . ehra . l. . cap. . p. , . mention● some , who have conceived that t●e jewish baptism in initiating proselytes , was in imitation of christs example , though he do not believe it ; and that schickardus conceives , they added a certain baptism to c●rcumcision , to difference them from samaritans , to shew that notwithstanding dr. hs. supposition , that the whole fabrick he frames of baptism , is discernable to be built on that basis the customary baptism among the ●ews , yet many will conceive it needs more proof then the bare recital of passages out of jewish writers , is a conclusion drawn out of the premises in the first figure , thus ; that is not so discernable but that many will conceive it needs m●re proof then the bare recital of passages out of jewish writers , which was not so conceived by schickard , and some others mentioned by mr. s●lden . but the drs. supposition was not so conceived by those , ergo. the ma●or rests on two things ; . that experience shews , what some others who had understanding to conceive did not conceive to be so , many its likely will not discern ▪ . that the later jewish writers are not such certain proof of the ancient jews customes , but that more proof may bee justly required then the bare recital of passages in them . it is not unknown that some have excepted against ainsworths allegation of rabbins , and that in his apology for it he himself saith , some things i note from them , not as approving them my self absolutely , but leaving them to the further consideration of the prudent . preface to his annot . on gen. nor is it unusual for rabbins to dissent one from another , and christian writer from jewish about their custome . though i have no engine to draw many out of two , nor were two onely mentioned by me ( for though mr. selden cite onely petrus alfunsus for the first , yet he cites him a● ascribing the thing to more then one , nec defuere ex judaeis christiani aliquot , &c. ) yet from the instance of two such which have so conceived , i might ●rationally infer the likelihood , that many would not be satisfied with the passages of the writers cited by him , much less with the inference of the dr. makes from thence . but hee tels me , to evidence to how little purpose i said thus much , i confess my conceit of such a custome of baptising proselytes afore christs incarnation among the latter jewes . yet i thinke it was to much purpose notwithstanding this my conceit , sith thereby the foundation of the drs. fabrick is in●imated to be such , as though i pull it not down others may . i said , that either that custome should begin from jacobs injunction to his houshold gen. . . or from gods command exod. . . for the israelites to wash their clothes afore the giving of the law ( though the jewish doctors allege these for it ) i do not conceive ( not as the dr. misre●ites me he cannot ) those places speaking of washing jews by nature , not proselytes , whereas the jews baptized not jews by nature , as selden de jure nat . &c. l. . c. . saith , but by profession . here , saith the dr. are many weak parts in these few words . for . the original of the cu●tome among the jews is but an accessary wholly extrinsecal ●o the matter in hand ▪ and in no respect necessary to be defined by us . if the custome be acknowledged we need ask no more , for on that and not on that particular original of it , it is that we superstruct our whole fabrick , as far as belongs to infant ba●tism . answ. be i● so , yet it was no weak part to examine the original of that custome ; nor impertinent , sith if the o●iginal come from unwritten tradition of elders , it is somewhat the less likely christ would make it the pattern of his baptism , who neglected the traditions of the elders , and excepted against them . mark . , , , , . but then secondly , sai●h he , for the two originals here set down and both rejected by him , it is a little strange that he should think fit to do so , and not to substitute any third in the place of them . answ. neither was this any weak part , ●ith the originals of such customes ar● so obscure , that there are few of them , whose head is known . the dr. i suppose cannot shew the original of the post coenium among the jews , of giving milk and honey to the newly baptised among christians , and yet i su●pose the dr. counts not this a weak part yet mr. ●oseph mede in his diatr. on tit. . . find ●nother original , to wit , that custome of washing infants from the pollutions of the womb , when ●hey are first born , mention●d ez●k . . . and gathered from the answer o● an oracle in a story related by plutarch in his quaestiones romana , not farre from the beginning . hence ( saith he p. . ) the ●ews before iohn the baptist came amongst them , were wont by this rite to initiate such , as they made proselytes , ( to wit ) as becomming infants again and entring in●o a new life , and being , which before they had not . w●ich derivation of its original suits better with the opinion of regeneration by it , in allusion to which as a vulgar notion among t●e jews , the dr. conceivs christ spake ioh . . and the jews imagined old kindred to be lost , and this is a good evidence , that they baptized not native jews , who were not by them conceived to be born again , nor to have any need as being born in sanctity , not in uncleaness matth. . . ioh. . . dly , saith he , for iacobs injunction to his houshold , gen. . . it is no where vouched by me as the original of this custome among the jews , but onely an intimation given , that that other , the command of god before the giving the law , was agreeable to what we read of iacob to his houshold , and so certainly it is . answ. be it so , yet jewish writers and others derive it from gen. . . and therefore there was no weak part shewed in my intimation of my dissent . thly , saith he , the command of god , exod. . . in which baptism is said to be founded by the jews , is not ( as mr. t. suggests ) the command to the israelites to wash their clothes ( nothing but the custome of changing their garments can be founded i● that ) but the command to moses to sanctifie them ( go unto the people and sanctifie them to day and to morrow ) in the hebrew notion of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sanctifications , for washing , either the whole or some parts of the body , as is shewed at large § . . if mr. t. did this unwittingly , he may now reform his mistake ; if wittingly , &c. i sha●l not then hope even this length of words will be sufficient for his conviction . answ. neither in this do i think i shewed weakness or deceit , though i did it wittingly , following herein mr. selden , ● . de syned e● . c. . p. , &c , where i think he hath proved by the washing of the cloathes is meant the washing of the whole body , and that thereby is exp●essed the baptism whence the later jews say they took the use of baptzing proselytes , and not by the term [ sanctifie them : ] which was to be done by moses not onely once , but two days together , and seems to be from v. . by his keeping them from their wives , and perh●ps some other ways whether offering sacrifice , or anointing ( by which way also sometimes persons are said to be sanctified as exod. . . and here the priests are bid sanctifie themselves , exod . . ) or some other way . to me it is improbable that by sanctifying , exod. . . is mean baptising , though i think it a general term comprehending that and some other acts . and thus i hope the reader will perceive i neither intended to disguise any thing , nor misguide any man. lastly , the dr. conceives my reason very vain , for the jews baptized jews by nature ▪ and it is evidenced from it they took the baptized proselytes , according to numb . . . and so it is evident , that of exod. ● . . being the original of baptizing native jews , may , and must be the original of baptizing the proselytes . answ. but neither doth it yet appear to me there is any weak part or v●nity in this reason , nor hath the dr. proved the custome of baptising iews by nature , nor do i find the evidences the dr. brings to opp●●e mr. selden , or that i made any misadventure in my few words , sect . dr. h. thinks reason not to be tied to mr. seldens authority , which i reject when ●tis not for my turn ; which i grant when the dr. gives such reason of dissent as i did in my rejection of mr. selden's interpretation of cor. ▪ . and for the drs. interpretation , neither hath he cleared it by his shewing my mistake of his meaning . for neither were the native iews wont to be initiated by baptism , nor is my reason avoided against his interpretation . for if the sense of the dr. bee , our fathers were baptized into moses as native jews are wont to be initiated by baptism , yet the dr. errs from the apostles meaning , which is , that our fathers the israelites were baptized into moses , as well ( not as the jews in after time by their baptism , but ) as wee christians by christian baptism into christ. whether the jews custome was to baptize native jews after the giving the law , hath been argued before ; i proceed to my main position , and the drs. answer to it . i set down my position thus ; nor do i think it true that the customary use of the jews in baptizing proselytes and their children , was the pattern of christs institution of baptism , and the apostles and first churches practise . for according to the custome of the jews , john baptist , and christs apostles should have baptized no native jews , which was not so , but of all nations as christ appointed , matth. . . to this the dr. answers . by asserting they did baptize native jews . to this the reply is by denial of this , and reserting to the proof before . . saith the dr. nay so they might , though the iews had baptized none but proselytes , for to that it would bear just proportion , that they should baptize both iews and gentiles , in case both of them came in as proselytes . answ. but this answer is a fallacy a little too gross to deceive any man of common understanding . for if the jews baptized no native jews , but proselytes ( not to christ ) but to the jewish people , and their baptism was the pattern ( which was the drs. word ) of christian baptism , then christ should have appointed , and iohn baptist and the apostles practised baptism to no jew , though a proselyte to christ ; for each thing ought to be appointed and done according to the pattern , and no otherwise , that which is otherwise is not according to the pattern , though it bear a proportion with it . my argument was not as the dr. makes it , the custome was to baptize proselytes and not natives ; therefore christ if be observed that custome was not to baptize native iews , but thus ; therefore if christ had made their custome his pattern , he would not have appointed them to be baptized . if moses had varied from the pattern shewed him in the mount , he had not made it his pattern , so it had been in this , if the jewish baptism had been christ and his apostles pattern . . i said , christ would not have avouched the baptism of iohn to be from heaven and not from men , if it had been in imitation of , and conformity to the jewish custome . to this the dr. saith , but i wonder what appearance of concludency there is in that reason ? may not any thing be from heaven or by gods appointment which is derived from a jewish custome ? god may appoint a ceremony known among men to be used in his service . answ. i grant it , but then the appointment of god is the pattern by which it is to be regulated , not mens custome ; i do not conceive that can be said to be from heaven or god but from men , which is derived from , founded in and regulated by as its pattern , a custome of men ; as the dr. saith of the christian baptism , that it is derived from ▪ founded in and regulated by the jewish baptism ( not pretended to bee an institution of god but an humane invention ) a● the pattern whence it is copied out even by christ , according to the dr. letter of resol . q● . . § . . . if it had been the pattern i said , it is likely some where or other some intimation would have been given , as the directory for christians in the use of baptism . this , saith the dr. is too frivolous to require reply ; for besides that , the negative argument were of no force , if it were 〈◊〉 is pretended ; it already appears that there are in the jewish writers more then intimations of this custome , and some indications of it even in the scripture it self ; as joh. . , . and for any plainer affirmations , what need could there be of them , when both the matter it self speaketh plainly , that there was no need of words to those that knew the jewish customes , as the first writers and readers of the new testament did , and when christs sole authority and practise of his apostles were sufficient directory for the christians in the use of baptism ? answ. the dr. might more truly have said , this reason is too weigh●y to be removed by his reply . for . the thing it self is of very great moment to tender consciences , who know of what moment it is that the great solemn ordinance of baptism should not be prophaned , but rightly used . . without a certain directory , no person can with peace seek baptism , nor minister give it . . the apostle saith for want of right observing the lords supper ( and there is the like reason of baptism ) gods judgement overtook the corinthians , cor. . . . that an abuse is to be rectified by christs appointment , cor. . . though the dr. say , the lords supper was derived and lightly changed from the jewish observance of the post . c●nium , yet did the apostle not make their custome the directory to regulate it by , but christs appointment and example ; and therefore such a negative argument is of invincible force in this case , if it be as i pretend ; there is no intimation given in scripture of that custome as the directory for christians in the use of baptism , therefore that custome is not the pattern by which it is to be regulated , for otherwise it were very tyrannous , for christ to impose a law on mens consciences , to practise a rite after a pattern altogether unknown , and not so much as directed to . to say the first writers and readers of the new testament knew the jewish customes , is nothing to us , unless they had told us what they were , and that wee are to follow them . and if they did not tell us , they dealt unfaithfully in not doing that which was necessary to bee done for our information . . the declarations in the jewish writers cannot be our directory unless we were directed to them as our rule , or they were as the canonical scriptures to us . . the jewish writers which mention this custome are later writers then the apostles time , and therefore they could not bee the directory , except we were referred to them by prognostication . . the jewish writers could not be a directory , except they could be had and read by those that need information from them . but how few of those millions of christians and preachers , who have need of direction in this thing , have heard much less have read , the jewish writers , the talmud , gemara , maimonides ? . how uncertain are their determinations , even to those that read them , how cross one to another , appears somewhat by what is said before . . their intimations of this custome are but obscure , and their declarations in sundry of the points in difference with so little evidence , that such as dr. h. and mr. selden d●ffer about them . . the indications in scripture joh. . , . are not such but that ( as hath been shewed ) it may well be doubted , whether they point at the custome of baptizing for initiating into covenant , or another usage at the birth of infants . . the matter it self speaketh not at all to us who know not the usage . . the dr. himsel● saith p. . here , it is highly unreasonable that an institution of christs , such as each sacrament is , should be judged of by any other rule , but either the words wherein the institution is set down , or by the records of the practise , whether of christ or the apostles , therefore it is highly unreasonable that the controversie of infant baptism should be judged by jewish writers . . if christs sole authority , and practise of his apostles , be sufficient dire●●ory for christians in the use of batism , as the dr. saith here , he doth very ill to make the jewish custome not known but by jewish writers of dubious credit the pattern of it , and to expound christs institution by it , as if the dial were to be set by the clock , and not the clock by the dial ; and all the drs. pains about the jewish custome of baptising is superfluous , and so one●ous to the reader ; and his way of probation of infant baptism , which he counts more perfect then other ways , is found to be most imperfect and of no validity , but meerly delusory . i added . the institution and practise would have been conformable to it . the dr. tels me , and so i say and have made it cleur that it was , as far as to the controversie in hand we are or can bee concerned in it . to which i return ▪ . that if the jewish custome were the pattern whence christ copied out baptism , it was so in all things , or else it was not the pattern , no man calls that the pattern , which having many particuiars in it , is followed but in one . . the dr. hath not made it appear by any testimony of scripture or father , but onely by his own confident speeches , that ever christ copied out his institution of baptism from the jewish custome , or if he did , it is most evident both from the commission matth. . . and from all the practise in the new testament , if he altered it in any thing he altered it in this thing ; though the dr. would face us down , he hath made clear ( by nothing but his own sayings ) that the institution and practise of christ and his apostles have been conformable to it , as far as to the controversie in hand he is or can bee concerned in it . yet he hath so much ingenuity as to add , but saith mr. t. the contrary appears , adding one main instance of the inconformity , and . lesser disparities ; the main disparity , saith he , is in their baptizing no infants of the gentile at their first conversions , whereas the jews baptized onely the gentiles infants at their first proselyting , not the infants of those who were baptized in infancy . for the former of these he offers no manner of proof beyond his own affirmation , and therefore it is sufficient to deny it ▪ a● he knowes we do , and evidently begs the question in assuming and not offering any proof to the contrary . answ. this is refuted so fully by all the fore going sections of that book of mine to which he answers , and the confessions of my antagonists , and the story of the new testament all along , besides what is said in this part of the review , sect . . . that i think the dr. hardly could say this without reluctancy of conscience . that he denied , that at their first conversions no infants of the gentiles were baptized by the apostles i did not know , yea i had reason from his own words letter of resolut . qu. . § ▪ ● to conceive he did not deny it , forasmuch as if any place did evince the baptizing of infants of gentiles at their first conversion , they must be those places acts . . cor. . . yet the dr. saith , the mention in scripture of the apostles baptizing a whole houshold at once , acts . . is not of it self demonstrative or convincing : because that wider phrase may possibly be restrained to those that heard and believed in that family , and it is not certain of either of these , the go●lers or stephanus houshold , that they had any so young as infants in their family ; therefore it is confessed , that no concluding argument can be deduced thence . if he deny it now he affirms the contrary , and so is to prove it , which that he either hath done or ever will , i do not imagine . a negative argument from divine testimony in this case is demonstrative , till the contrary be made good . the dr. adds , for the second , that of the jewish practise he pretends no more then what hee had before cited by reference ( but now sets down in words ) viz. the affirmation of mr. selden . but i have already shewed how groundless that affirmation of mr. s. was , as to the native jews children , who were still baptized after the giving of the law. and the same i now add for the children of those proselytes who had been baptized in infancy there appears not the least proof of this from the jewish writers , who are the onely competent witnesses in it . answ. if there were no more proof brought then what hath been , that the jews baptizing the infants at first proselytism , and the apostles no infants at first conversion , it were proved ; that the apostles practise of baptism was not conformable to the jewish custome : and for the other point , mr. seldens affirmation is in the judgement of such as knew both , as good as dr. hammonds negation . i confess i have not those jewish writers he refers to , nor some books of mr. selden de successione in bona defuncti , c. . lib. . de successione in pontificatu cap. . in which by his reference i guess he hath more ●ully handled this point , yet do i imagin , that knowing the accurateness of the writer , any reader will conceive that he had clear evidence for what he wrote , or else he would not have so often and so plainly avouched it , that the children of proselytes after the first baptizing were not baptized , but onely circumcised according to the jewish custome . but the dr. saith , but for the contrary , i propose these two testinies taken notice of by mr. s. himself de synedr . c. . out of gemara babylon . he wants the right of a proselyte for ever , unless he be baptized and circumcised . here baptism and circumcision are joyned together , as equally necessary to a proselyte and that for ever . and circumcision there is no doubt was to be received by every male , no● onely at their first comming to the church of the ●ews , at their first proselytism , but through all posterities , every child of a proselyte that was not circumcised , became straightwayes no proselyte . and then sure this conjunction of baptism with circumcision on these terms of equality , both of perpetual necessity to all proselyte● , must needs extend the baptism as well as the circumcision , beyond the first proselytes and their immediate children , to all their posterity that shall come from them afterwards , for to all those belonged circumcision . so again in the same place , and if he be not baptized , hee remains a pagan or gentile ; here i shall ask whether the childe of a proselyte who had been baptized in his infancy , were to be a fagan for ever ? i suppose it will be answered , no ; and then by the force of that testimony of gemara i conclude , therefore it must bee supposed that he was baptized , for else he would be a pagan for ever . answ. it were very strange that mr. selden should in the same chapter in which he cites those words , lib. . de syn●d . c. . p. . assert p. . before , and p. . after , that neither jews children after the giving the law , nor proselytes children after their first baptism , should be baptized , if the words there did import the contrary . and therefore though i want the book to consider it , yet i doubt not the sense of the words is plain thus , that the gentile who is not baptized at first as well as circumcised , wants for ever , not onely a little while , the right of a proselyte , and is the very same which both selden there p. . cites out of maimonides issuri ●ia . c. and ainsw . annot . on gen. . . a stranger that is circumcised and not baptized , or baptized and not circumcised , he is not a proselyte till he be both circumcised and baptised . so that the sense is not as the dr. would , that no proselytes child shall have the right of a proselyte , unless that child be as well baptised as circumcised , but this , that he that at his first proselytism is onely circumcised and not baptised , shall still want the right of a proselyte as if he were not circumcised at all , till he be baptised as well as circumcised . and that to be the meaning , is plain out of the words that selden cites from the same book p. . a little after , where r. eliezers opinion being that a person may be a proselyte if circumcised though not baptised , because so were their fathers ; and rabbi j●shuah's that he was a proselyte who was baptised and not circumcised , because so were their mothers ; it is said , that the wise men nevertheless have pronounced , that if any have been baptised and not circumcised , or circumcised and not baptised , he is not a proselyte till he is as well baptised as circumcised ; and the same is the sense of the other speech . so that those words do not speak of any other then the first proselytes baptism of that race , not of the posterity , nor of the conjunction of baptism and circumcision but at the first entrance into the covenant ; and therefore to the drs. question i say , the posterity of a proselyte were israelites not pagans , though they were not baptised in their own persons by vertue of the parents baptism , if they were not born before it . the dr. proceeds thus ; besides this two things i farther add , to remove all possible force of this suggestion ; . that if it were granted in the full latitude wherein it is proposed , that the jews baptized no other infants of proselytes , but those whom they had at their first conversion ; yet this would nothing profit mr. t. for it were then obvious to affirm , that christ who imitated the jews in that , and so baptised the children of christian proselytes , did make some light change in this , and farther then the pattern before him afforded , baptized all the posterity that should succeed them , and were born in the church in their infancy also , the reason though not the patte●n belonging equally to them as to the children of the first proselytes , and the jewish custome of baptizing their natives infants beeing fully home to it . answ. the dr. having tried to prove the posterity of the proseselytes born after their proselytism , to have been won● to bee baptized by the jews , but distrusting it's likely it would not hold , yet thinks to use another engine , though it be as weak as the rest . for . he supposeth , the jews baptised native jews infants after the giving the law , which is not true . . that christ imitated the jews in baptising proselytes children at first proselytism , and so baptised the children of christian proselytes at their first conversion , which is manifestly false . . that the iews baptism was the pattern before christ , which is the thing in question . . that some children are born in the church christians , which is a mistake . . that he made some light change in that of not baptising proselytes posterity , and farther then the pattern before him afforded , baptised all the posterity that should succeed them , and were born in the church in their infancy also . which is a palpable falshood , it being certain that christ baptized none , nor appointed the baptizing of any christians infants , and is against the dr. for . if the custome were changed by christ , then it was not the pattern . . the same proofs which shew a change in this , shew as much a change in the other . . this change is ill called a light change , which made so large a perpetual addition . . if the pattern did not belong equally to all the christians posterity , as to the children of the first proselytes , then the reason did not belong to them , sith the pattern according to the dr. is all or the main reason , basis or foundation of infant baptism with him . . it is also false , that the reason of baptising the after children of proselytes , or the native iews infants after the giving of the law was as before , sith the reason of baptism given by the rabbins is the uncleanness of the baptized , which they deny of native jews after the giving the law , and of proselytes posterity born after their baptism . so that it may be easily perceived , that the dr. hath not avoided the force of my objection against the jews baptizing being christs pattern , but heaped up many mistakes , and some against himself . dly , saith he , that it being by all granted , that the children which the proselytes had , at their first proselytism were baptized among the jews ; this is as evident a confutation of the antipaedobaptist , and so of mr. t. as it would if all their infants to all posterity were baptized ; for by that very baptising of the infants at their first proselytism , it appears that infants may be baptized , for i hope those proselytes infants are infants ; and if any infants may and ought to be baptized , then are all their pretensions destroyed , whose onely interest it is to evince , that no inf●nts most or may be baptised . and i hope this will be of some use to mr. t. when he shall have considered it . answ. it is so , for thereby i perceive the inconsiderateness and va●●ty of the drs. writing . ● grant the one confutes me as well as the other , that is not at all . for what consequence is in this , i grant the jews baptized proselytes children at first proselytism , and this they did according to their custome ; therefore ● must grant that some infants of christians may and ought to be baptized by christian baptism ? did i ever grant that the jewish baptism of any infants is to be our pattern , or was christs pattern ? yea , do i not dispute against it ? what a frivolous reason is this of so famous a dr. for by that very baptising of the infants at their first proselytism , it appears that infants may be baptized , for i hope those proselytes infants are infants ? how doth it appear that what the jews did we may do ? were infants of proselytes to be baptized because they were infants ? or are our infants to be baptized because infants , as the drs. reason intimates ? to omit his non sense of hoping that infants are infants , i tell him that i have considered this , and that i finde it of no force to remove my suggestion , that my pretensions are not destroyed , but that he hath shewed more futility in this passage , so seriously presented to my consideration , then i should easily have imagined in such a man as he is . but yet the dr. adds , the onely way mr. t. hath to confirm this of the jews not baptising any infants of proselytes born after their fi●st conversion , and baptism is the resolution of the jews , that if a woman great with child became a proselyte and were baptized , her child needs not baptism when 't is born . and this i had cited § . . out of the rabbins , and so indeed i find it in maimonides ▪ tit . isuribia . c. . but i cannot think that ( whether true or false ) a sufficient proof to infer the conclusion ; for the jewish drs. might probably thus resolve upon this other ground , because the mother and the child in her womb , being esteemed as one person , the woman great with child being baptized , they might deem the child baptized as well as the woman , and not account it needfull to repeat it after the birth , which yet ( by the way ) it seeems they would have done , if they had not deemed the child all one with the mother , and consequently they must bee supposed to baptise those children which were begotten to the proselyte after the time of his or her first conversion and baptism . and accordingly the christian doctors in the councel of neocaesare● can . . having resolved the contrary to that jewish hypothesis , viz. that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that the mother that bears the child differs from the child , or is not at all one with it ; and her confession in baptism is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 proper or particular to her self , and belongs not to the childe in her womb , give the ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the woman that is with child , and is then converted to the faith , leave to be baptised when she pleases , supposing that the child which then she carries , shall , notwithstanding her baptism , then be its self baptised after its birth . which as it is a clear answer to the argument deduced from the resolution of the jews in that point , so 't is moreover an evidence how little of proof mr. t. had either from his own observation , or mr. seldens testimonies , from all which he can produce no other but this , which in the sound is so far from affirming what he would have , and upon examination is found to conclude the contrary . answ. the dr. hath a strange fancy , to think he can conclude the contrary to what i infer from those words of the jewish drs. that when they resolve the child needs not be baptized , therefore they were wont to bap●ize the children of proselytes born after their proselytism , as if the jewish custome were contrary to their drs. resolution , when they say it needs not , yet they should do it ; if so , how vainly doth the dr. talk but a little before , that the jewish writers are the onely competent witnesses in this thing ] and proves all along this chapter their custome by these very writers ? but let 's heed his reason ; the jewish drs. might resolve it upon another ground , the childs being one with the mother , and so the b●ptism needless to that child , which yet by the way ( or rather out of the way ) it seems they would have done , if they had not deemed the childe all one with the mother , and consequently other children must be supposed to be baptized . ] so the dr. upon an imaginary ground , of which he brings no proof or shew of proof , and a conjecture of his own , that seems to him but to none else , infers downright they must be supposed to baptise other children . it must be so , because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he is a rabbin , dr. chair , of the irrefragabilis magister noster ; if he say the right hand is the left we must say so too ▪ but yet i am joannes ad appositum , and think i have better cards to shew for my inference then dr. h. for his ▪ mr. selden who is also joannes ad oppositum l. . de jure nat . &c. c. . p. . speaks not doubtfully like dr. h. when he puts in hi● parenthesis ( whether true or false ) but cites gema● . babylon . ad tit. jabim . cap. . fol. . a and maimonides halach isuri bia . c. . shulcan aruch lib. jore dea cap. . b and having set down the jewish doctors resolution , that if a woman great with childe be made a proselyte , and so received by baptism , her child needs not baptism ; ] he adds , nimirum ex co quod nata est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seu in sanctita●e matris aut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in ejus judaismo ( nam hisce sic ut untur vocibus ) proselyti seu matris conditionem induebat , that is , to wit because in as much as it was born in the holiness of the mother , or in her judaism ( for so they use these words ) it put on the condition of the mother , ] that is , was holy , or a jew as the mother , and so needed not baptism , which plainly shews they counted not their children who were holy , or jews born after the parents bap●ism to need baptism , and consequently did not bap●ize them . nor doth the resolution of the council of neocaesarea any whit help the doctour . for what consequence is in this , there were some christians in the th ▪ century since christ , who did imagine the mothers baptism might serve for the child , perhaps ( for that 's the drs. conjecture onely ) because they thought the child and mother one , therefore the jewish drs. resolution is upon that ground , and to be limited to those onely ? and for the drs. mention of the words of the council , it is against himself , though imperfectly done ; for . it supposeth , the mother that bears the child differs from the child , and her confession in baptism is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , proper or particular to her self , and belongs not to the childe in her womb ; ] therefore according to the resolution of that council in baptism , the parent and childe are not one , nor the parents confession of faith stands for the child . . it expresly affirmeth two things which quite destroy paedobaptists principles . . that in baptism she that bringeth forth communicates nothing to the child brought forth , therefore the parents faith or baptism communicates no priviledge , or right of baptism to the child . . that every ones free choise in confession is shewn or to be shewn in baptism ; the●efore no child is to b● baptized according to that councils determination , but upon its own confession out of free choise shewed or signified by it self . but of this canon i have said something before . by this which is said i● appears how far the dr. hath bin from giving a clear answer to the ●●gument , or examining any thing ( as it was fi● he should and that rather he hath so handled this point , as if his study were like protagoras in gellius , to make a bad cause to seem good , or anaxagoras to prove snow black . ●ect . . the dr. writes thus ; this grand disparity then being cleared to be mr. t. his mistake , i shall not need to attend his other instances of disparity , this accord which hath been already mentioned and vindicated , bein● sufficient to my pretensions , and no concernment of mine obliging me to believe or affirm , that the parallel holds any farther then christ was please● it should , and of that we are to judge by what the scriptures or ancient church tels us was the practice of him o● his apostles ; for . the jews i doubt not brought in many things of their own devising into this , as into other institutions of gods , and the later jews more , as of the proselytes being so born again in baptism , that lying with his natural sister was no incest , and the like : and . christ , i doubt not , changed the jewish oeconomy in many things , as in laying aside circumcision , in commissionating his disciples to baptize ( and they leaving it in the hands of the bishop , and those to whom he should commit it . it is not lawful to baptize without the bish●p , sai●h ignatius , ep ad smyrn edit . voss. p. . ) whereas it was not among the jews any part of the priests office , any more then circumcision was ; and so in many other particulars . but what is that to my pre●ensions , who affirm no more of the accordance betwixt the jewish and christian practice , then either by some indications in the scrip●u●e it self , or by the christian fathers deductions from the apostles times , appears to be meant by christ , and practised by the apostles ▪ and then by the jewish writers is as evident to have to have been in use among them . and this is all the return i need make to hi● fourt●en l●sser disparities , and all that he hath at large ende●vo●red to infer from the● , supp●sing and granting them all to be such . answ. dr. h. had expresly asserted the ●ewish custome of baptising proselytes , to be the pattern , whence christian baptism was copied out , and what is set down in the n. t. i. e. in the words of christs institution , or in his or the apostles practise , he calls a copy of their custome as the pattern , letter of resol . qu. . § . . and what was the jewish custome , he proves onely from the talmud , gemara , maimonides , or other jewish writers ▪ and says p. . they are the onely competent witnesses in it , which if so , his pretensions are made void if there be one , much more if there be one main one , and . lesser disparities . for sure what is a pattern must be followed , and is in all , or else it ceaseth to be a pattern . had moses made that which was shewed him in the mount his pattern , if he had onely done according to it in two , or three , or one thing and not in the rest ? besides , how doth or can the dr. prove the one to have been the pattern to the other , but by the universal conformity ▪ to say , it is a pattern when they agree in one or two things and differ in . is all one as to say , a womans coat is the pattern of a mans double● , because they agree in having sleeves , or a temple is the pattern of a dwelling house , because they have both doors and windows . the dr. therefore doth in my apprehension pull down what he hath all this while been erecting , by his acknowledging both the jews bringing in many things of their own devising otherwise then christ appointed , and christs changing their oecomy in many things , and making the accordance no further then christ was pleased it should hold , and of that we are to judge by what the scriptures or ancient church tels us , was the practise of him or his apostles . for . then it will follow , that infant baptism c●n never be proved to be from christ or the apostles , sith it can never be proved that they practised it or appointed it to be practised according to the jewish custome . . the dr. hath meerly abused h●s reader , endeavouring to possess him , as if infant baptism might be better p●oved ●rom the jewish ●ustome in their writ●rs , then from the scripture ; and yet in the conclusion , the jewish custome is disclaimed as a pattern , any farther then the scriptures or ancient church tell us was the practise of him or his apostles , and by pretending that to be p●t●ern , which is not to be followed any farther then we may judge by another directory christ was pleased it should hold . i let pass what the dr. saith , of christs commissionating his disciples to baptize , and they leaving it in the hands of the bishop , and those to whom he should commit it , as not pertinent to the present business , though otherwise many things might ●hence be gathered , to shew that bishops were not such in late dayes as they were anciently , or they were very negligent in committing this great business of baptism to so many ignorant drunken priests ( who often did it in their drink ) which should have been done by themselves , and consider what followes . but yet , saith the dr. it is evident that some of them are not such ; as when he saith , the baptism of males must be with circumcision and an offering , it is clear that , though . circumcision be laid aside by christ , and . when it was used it had nothing to do with baptism , yet as to the adjoyning of offering or sacrifice , the parallel still holds , the prayers of the church being the christian sacrifice , and those in the christian church solemnly attendant on the administration of baptism . answ. . if circumcision when it was used had nothing to do with baptism , how could the dr. ( as he doth here ch . . sect . . ) take on him from circumcision to prove ( no● the duety , yet ) the lawfulness of infan● baptism . . the sacrifice which was required at the initiating a proselyte , was a burnt offering of a beast , or two turtle doves , or two young pigeons , both of them for a burnt offering ; so maimonides tit . isuri ●i● . c. . as ainsworth annot . on gen. . . selden de syned . l. . c. . ●ite him , but that is not prayer , nor is it any more agreeable to the jewish custome to use prayer without it , then to use circumcision of the heart , col. . . without the outward , or the answer of a good conscience towards god without baptism with water ; and yet the rubrick of the common prayer book in private baptism allowed ( if time did not suffer ) it to be done without so much as saying the lords prayer . the dr. adds . so parallel to the court of three israelites , by the confession or profession of whom ( saith maimonides ) the infant was baptized , we have now not onely the whole church , in the presence of whom ●tis publikely administred , and when more privately , yet in the presence of some christians , who are afterwards , if there be any doubt , to testifie their knowledge to the church ; but more particularly the godfathers and godmothers , being themsel●es formerly baptized , do represent the church , and the minister commissionated thereto by the bishop , represents the church also , meaning the governors thereof . answ. though baptism by women and others not commissionated by a bishop have heretofore been tollerated , and been taken for currant baptism , and the terming the governours of the church the church , be language not like the scripture , but the canon law , and the use of gossips be a vain device , and the minister commissionated by the bishop , with the gossips sometimes so ignorant of the knowledge of christ , that they are not fit to bee among christians , nor to be taken to represent a church of christ , nor do they stand under that notion at the usual baby sprinkling , but as sureties or proxies to the child ; and in private baptism there 's none of these sometimes , yet were all the dr. saith yeilded , this is not according to the jewish custome , which required a kinde of court of three israelites skilfull in law to approve it , or else it is vo●d , and so as judges of the baptism , of which sort the other are not . the dr. adds ; but i shall not proceed to such superfluous considerations , and so i have no need of adding one word more of reply to his . chapter ( as far as i am concerned in it ) unless it bee to tell him that the bishop● canons are not the rule by which i undertake to define , wherein the jewish custome must be the pattern , wherein not ; ( but as he cannot but know , if he had read the resolution of the th . quaere ) the practise of the apostles of christ , by the testifications of the fathers of the church made known unto us , to which as i have reason to yeild all authority , so i finde the canons and rituals as of this , so of all other churches in the world ( no one excepted ) to b●ar perfect accordanc● therewith , in this particular of infant baptism ( though in other lesser particulars they differ , many among themselvs , and all from the jewish pattern . ) and this i hope is a competent ground of my action , and such as may justifi● it to any christian artist to bee according to rules of right reason , of meekness , and sound doctrine , and no work of passion , or prejudice , or singularity , or ( as mr. t. suggests ) of the drs. own pleasure , as if that were the mutable principle of all these variations from the jewish pattern . answ. . to call cyprian , augustine , &c. fathers of the church , which is elsewhere stiled their mother , is scarce consistent . . to yeeld all authority to the practise of the apostles of christ , by the testifications of the fathers of the church made known to us there is no reason ; this is due onely to the holy scripture : they testifie sundry things as the apostle practise , which was not so , they speak sometimes in these things confidently upon false reports , this would be an inlet to many superstitions , the canons of councils , and rituals of churches are so full of weakness and blemishes , as that they would be counted most useless writings ●o direct in faith or worship , did not their age make some men dote on them ▪ t●at all churches accord in infant baptism cannot be true . the common prayer book is not justifiable in the allowing that which is termed privat baptism , in the use of sureties their mimical or fals answers , saying they desire to be baptized , when it is not so . the drs. exposition letter of resol . q § . . i believe , i. e. this child stands bound by by th●se presents to believe , &c. is so ridiculous ( and augustines tom . . ep. ad ●oni●acium is like it ) as that did not prejudice , o● preingagem●nt , or some other like reason prevail with dr. h. he would never defend it . that which the dr. makes a competent ground of his action , doth not justifie his tenet of infant baptism to be according to rules of reason and sound doctrine , whether he vary or not in his determinations from that which hee makes the pa●tern as hee pleaseth , or the bishops canons order , let the reader ju●ge by what is said , and that which followes . of this score , saith he , 't is somewhat strange , which he thinks fit to add concerning the form of baptism , in the name of the father , and the ●on , and the holy ghost ; in ●his one thing , saith he , which christ did no● prescribe , nor did the apostles , that we finde so conceive it , yet saith the dr. christs prescription must be indispensably used . in reply to this i shall not s●end much time to evidence this form to bee christs prescription , if the express words a● his parting from the world , matth. . ●o ye the●●fore , and ●ach or receive ●o disciplesh●p , all na●●ons , baptizing them in the n●me of the father , and the son , and the holy ●host , be not a prescription o● christs , and if the universal doctrine and continual practise of the whole church through all times , be not testim●ny sufficient of the apostles conceiving it 〈◊〉 , and a competent ground of the indispensable continuing the use of it ; i shall not hope to perswade with him , onely i shall minde him of the words of s. athanasius in his epistle to s●rapion tom . p. . he that is no● baptized into the name of all three , receives nothing , remains empty and imperfect . for perfection is in the trinity , no baptism per●●● i● seems but that ▪ and if ●his will not yet suffice , i shall then onely demand whether he can prod●ce ●o express grounds from christ or the apostles , or the univ●rsal church of god through all ag●● , or from any one ancient father for his denying baptism to infan●s . answ what grounds we can produce ●rom christ , and apostles for denying infant bapt●sm , may be se●n in 〈◊〉 part of this review sect . , &c. what from fathers in this , and some oth●r of my writings ▪ that which christ prescribed is indispensably to be used , to baptize in●● the name of the father , son and holy , but all the question is about these words [ i baptize thee in the name of the father , son and holy ghost ] whether christ have prescribed them to be indispensably used ; so as tha● if any say , i baptize thee in the name of christ , or the lord jesus , or be thou baptized , or a● the greeks use it [ let this servant of christ bee baptized ] into the name of father , son and spirit , or , this p●rson is baptized by ●e into the profession and owning of the father of christ the onely true god , and jesus christ whom he hath sent , and the comforter whom he sent as his lord and master , this be not agreeable to c●rists prescription . i conceive it is , and that neither did christ prescribe those very words the dr. se●s down , but the thing ( of which grotius ●nn●t . in matth. ● . . may be seen , where the dr. may see , that to be baptized into the name , is not all one with bap●izing with the express naming of each o● these , but another thing , and how the ancients varied in their expressions , and how iren●us lib. c. . saith . in nomine christi subauditur qui unxi● , & ipse qui unctus est , & ipsa unctio in q●a ●nctu● e●● . ) nor the apostles when they prescribed baptism into the name of christ , without mentioning the other persons , acts . . & . . & . . lu●●bard l. . sent . dist . . ●ui baptizat in nomine christi baptiz●t in nomine ●rin●tatis , quae ibi intelligitur ; and this ambrose before spake , i● lib. . de s●ir sanct . c. . ●iscat . schol . in matth. . ▪ but it is not to be thought that in these words , christ commands misters o● pastors of the church , that in baptizing they should pronounce these words , baptize thee into the name of the father , &c. father●c ●c . which may be done although those word● be not ●ronounced in baptizing and therefore tha● which i ●aid , needed not bee somewhat st●●nge in the dr. and for the words of the drs. practic●l catech . l . § . . the words do shew what i said the dr. confessed , to have been no mis●●eporting of his words ; who did not say , he affirmed the putting under water ( used by the primitive church to be appointed by christ , exclusi●ely to sprinkling , but t●at by christs appointment the baptized was to be d●pt in wa●e● ▪ i.e. according to the primitive ancient custome to bee put under wa●er , and said expresly be allowed of sprinkling , and yet varied from the j●wish pattern which requir●d immersion ; and from christs appointment ( which though he propounded d●s●junctively , yet i knew it could ●ot ●e so understood ) and from the primitive custome , and yet in another thing n●t so prescribed , will have it to be indispensably used , which shews his variableness . sect . xcvii . matth. . . infants are excluded from being subjects of baptism , notwithstanding dr. hammonds pretensions . to what dr. h. defence of infants baptism ch . . sect . . saith , i reply . . that his writing for the common prayer book , is evidence of ascribing more then was meet to the canons of prelates , sith th● common prayer book stood as well by the prelates canons , as the act of parliament , and those that are for the one are for the most part for the other . . it appears to me that he hath offended much against the sacrament of baptism , in his defence of infant baptism , the use of sureties , sprinkling in stead of baptism according to the common prayer book , all which are mentioned before . . this to me is a signe that the dr. ascribes too much to the canon which enjoyned subscription and conformity to the common prayer book , in that he hath opposed , as much i think as any man of his rank , the reformation of these and such other faults as were in it . . if there were a catechesis in the term allegation , then my use of it proves not my signification that the dr. did produce matth. . . as a proof of his pos●tion : yet when i consider how the dr. letter of resol . q. . sect . , . doth make the jewish baptism the pattern whence the christian is copied out , and saith ; christian baptism hath nothing in the copy to exclude christians children , which copy is set down in the n. t. i e. in the words of institution , and these words § . . are no other then those matth. . . which he endeavours to prove not onely not to exclude , but also to include christians children , as he speaks § . . christs baptism being founded in the jews custome of baptizing of proselytes , and the custome among them being known to be this , to baptize the proselytes and their children , the indefinite command of baptizing all nations , was all that was needfull to comprehend the children also of those that received the faith of christ. i do still conceive he did allege matth. . . as a proof of his position , though not by it self ▪ yet with his imagined pattern of the jewish custome , and that though he would not openly , yet by his contending so much for the equivalency of disciple and proselyte , and the extent of the term proselyte , and his acknowledgement of these words to be the copy in the n.t. he did tacitely yeeld , that if those words matth. . . include not infants under the discipled ▪ then there is something in the n. t. which excludes infants from baptism nor is he at all relieved by what he saith that whatever were the notion of discipling there , yet ●ee could not deem infants thereby excluded from baptism , whom by another medium , viz. ▪ the apostolical practice hee supposed to be admitted to it by christs institution ; for that very medium is to prove it to have been christs institution , and matth. . . comprehends the words of institution , and is the copy of the original , and therefore it 's tacitely implied , that if infants be no● proved to bee included matth. . . there is something against infant baptism in the n. t. nor is it true that in that which is not included , is not presently excluded , for in all such institutions or appointments , what is not included i● presently exclu●ed . our lord argues matth. . , . two shall bee one flesh , therefore more then two are excluded ; the apostle cor. . . thus ch●ist appointed the lords supper , therefore no otherwise , wine is appointed therefore water is excluded , eating is prescribed therefore reservation is excluded , let the self-examiner eat , therefore infants excluded ; the dr. himself , baptizing in the name of the father , son and holy ghost , prescribed mat. ● . . therefore that from indispensably to be used if the dr. would look on such a despicable piece , he might see this further proved in that book a part whereof hee answers , review part . . sect . . ●f not he may finde enough in jewels sermon at pauls cross . and in all sorts of protestant writers , which by reducing things to the primitive institution , exclude other things added by men as abuses . but the dr. tels me , he that saith man is a living creature , doth not thereby deny ●n angel to be so also ; true , but this is impertinent , ●●th this is a proposition not a command ; and as impertinent is the other , when christ gives his d●sciples po●er to heal diseases , matth. . . he cannot be deemed to with hold from them power of raising the dead , for that we see comprehended in their commi●sion v. . for th●s is not an instan●e of an institution of what they should do , but a relation of what christ gave them . to my arguing from passages of the doctors letter of resol . q. . § . , , . pract . c●t l. . § . . that infants are not baptized according to chri●ts institution , and baptism no sacrament to them , he tels me ; . that christs institution of baptism was not ( nor is ever affirmed by 〈◊〉 to be ) set down in those words of matth. . that having been long before instituted and practised , as appears by plain words , job . . , . whereto i answer ; . the first is not true , for in his letter of resol q. . § . he mentions , the copy of baptism set down in the n. t. i. e. in the words of institution , which § . . shews are those matth. . . and § . having as he thinks avoided the exclusion of infants , from the command matth. . ● . he saith ▪ nothing is discernable in christs institution of baptism , which can exclude infant children of christian● from it , and again he terms them , that institution of baptism for all nations . . his reason i● as frivolous . for though it were instituted before , yet it was set down matth. . . as the institution of the lords supper was before the epistle to the corinthians , yet is set down cor. . . secondly , saith hee , that though christs will and institution fo● baptizing infants be not so manifestly exprest in those words , matth. ● . . as shall be able by the bare force of the words to convince any gain-sayer , without any other way of evidence or proof added to it , yet by the apostles practise of baptizing infants ( appearing to us by other means ) it is most evident that they who certainly did not mistake christs meaning ; did thus understand and extend his institution and commission . the truth of this is there made more evident § . , &c. i shall not here repeat it . answ. . it is to be observed , that here the dr. makes christs will , institution , and commission , to be exprest in those words matth. . . and yet in the next words before he said , christs institution of baptism was not ( nor is ever affirmed by him to be ) set down in those words matth. . . quo teneam nodo ? . that he acknowledgeth christs will and institution for baptizing infants , is not so manifestly exprest in those words matth. . . as shall be able by the bare force of the words to convince any gain-sayer . now sure i● not there , no where . as for his other proof from other places , it is so fully proved here to be vain , that if the dr. do not , others will see it to be so . yet he adds ▪ secondly that the infant when he is to bee ba●tized , doth though not by his own voice personally , yet by his lawfull proxies , which the church accepteth in his stead , profess the believing in three , the father , son , and holy ghost , deliver himself up to three , &c. answ. how comes any man ●o bee a childs proxy , who doth not make hi● so ? by w●at law becomes he a lawful proxy ? where did god allow him to become a proxy or su●ety for an infant ? how dares any take upon him to be a surety of the covenant , which i● christs office heb. . ? with what face can any christian say the child b●lievs , or desires ●o be baptized , when the child at that very instant , by its crying shews its unwillingness thereto ? how dares any undertake it shall believe , when it is not in his power to give fai●h , and so many do not believe , but oppose the faith , who are thus baptized ? what warrant hath any parent , or ( as mr. bax●er terms the gossips ) proparent , to profess the faith of christ in behalf of an infant , and to desire christian baptism for it ? what is the church the doctour means , that accepts a proxies profession in st●ad of the childe ? who gave them or that person the name of the church ? what commission , whence have the church power to exchange and commute ones profession for anothers ? who gave the minister authority to alter christs institution , and to accept of that which christ never appointed in stead of that which christ appointed ? it is undoubtedly a most high presumption , derogatory to christs peculiar office ▪ forbidden matth. ● . . for any minister , or bishop , or council , or congregation , who are all to be subject to christ , and to follow his prescriptions , to take on them in stead of the persons own profession before baptism to accept of another● , as ● proxy , parent , or proparent his confession , instead of the baptized per●ons profession ? th●ugh i marvail not that dr. hammond a man prelatical , who too much favours corruptions in fathers , counci●s , and prelates , disguising them under the name of the church , which is a pre●ence for many supersti●ions , should thus determine : yet i wonder how mr. baxter and those who have opposed the use of the cross in baptism , and other abuses of papists and prelates , should having proved in his d . disputation of right to sacraments , that none but professors of saving faith and repentance are to be baptized , yet without the least proof or shadow of proof , but a parents or proparents pro●ession instead of an infants , and without any institution or practise in the new testament , dar● to teach and accordingly to pra●●ise 〈…〉 and to require parents or others to profess the faith to that ●nd , and in their stead . just zeal to the glory of god and honour of christ , and his truth , makes me thus earnest ; no man can justly blame me in inveighing against , if not the hypocrisie of such men , yet certainly the iniquity of them who oppose humane inventions in one thing and no● in another , and the wickedness of them who either by consistorial sentences excommunica●e as heretiques , or by exciting magistrates against them persecu●e , or in preaching exclaim , or otherwise oppose those that will not yeeld to such corruptions , though obtruded under the name of the church . i had said , yea if the positive will of christ be the reason of baptism , they usurp upon christs prerogative , who baptize otherwise the●● christ hath appointed , and then if the precept of christ doth not nec●ssarily infer infant baptism ( which the dr. ingenuously acknowledgeth ) it doth by manifest consequence deny it , sith hee forbids that to be done otherwise then he hath appointed when he hath determined how it should be done . the dr. when hee saith above , the words [ i baptize into the name of the father ▪ son , and ghost ] must be indispensably used ; me think by the same reason should conceive christs institu●ion should bee ●nal●e●ably used in baptizing those onely whom he hath appointed to be baptized ; hereupon the dr. saith thus . to this the grounds of answer have been already laid also , viz. that they that baptize infants , baptize no otherwise then christ appointed , and the apostles appear to have understood his appointment . by christs appointment not meaning particularly his words matth. . but his will , otherwise made known to his disciples , when and in what words soever it was that he instituted baptism , which must be long before this , even before his apostles took on them to baptize any , which yet they did in great abundance , joh. . . and of this appointment or institution of baptism by christ it is most true , that if that precept of christ , whereby hee first instituted baptism , did not indeed compre●end , and so necessarily infer infant baptism , and was so understood to do by the apostles , it shal consequently be deemed to deny it . but then herein lies a great fallacy , when from another appointment of christ , viz. that matth. . which i acknowledge not to infer infant baptism necessarily , he assumes in universum , and reports it as my confession , that christs precept ( indefinitely taken , and so extending to all christs precepts at any time ) doth not necessarily infer infant baptism . which is that grand illogical fault in disc●urse of inferring an indefinite or universal conclusion from particular premises . as for the comparison which he makes betwixt the indispensable use of the words of baptism matth. . and the as unalterable observation of christs institution in respect of the persons to be baptized , i willingly grant it , on the condition premised , that he mistake not the text matth . to be the words of that institution , whe●●in christ defined who are to be baptized . those words are a commission to the apostles to go preach to or disciple all nations , and thus far extends to point out the persons ▪ viz. that they should ( as disciple so ) baptize gentiles as w●ll as jews ; and again , they are express for the form of baptism , that it should be in the name of the father , the son , and the holy ghost , but they are not any kinde of direction to that other matter of receiving and admitting infants or not infants . that i suppose sufficiently notified to them before , both by the common practise of their ancestors in the jewish religion by the vulgar notion of baptism , whilest it was familiarly used among the jewes , both to their own and their proselytes children , and also by christs special direction ( though the gospels , which express not at all the words of the first institution of baptism do no● set that down ) in the time of his preaching among them , some while before that passage of story related , ●oh . . , &c. from both of these , i suppose the apostles learnt i● ( and not from matth. . ) and we learn it onely from the apostles , as shall hereafter appear . answ. that the apostles learnt infant baptism from christ , or dr. hammond from the apostles , hath not been made appear as yet . what he hath produced from tertullian and the greek fathers , from cor. . . and from the jewish custome , hath been already examined and shewed to b● insufficient to that end . his grants are , that if christ did not institute at first infants baptism , nor the apostles so understood it , it should consequently be deemed to deny it ; and if he did otherwise appoint it , then infants are excluded ; and what is matth. . . prescribed , is indispensably to be used ; but he supposeth a fore●going insti●ution comprehending infant baptism , notified otherwise then by mat. . . that matth. . . determines neither pro nor con : for no● against infants baptism , that i infer illogically , because not in matth. . . instituted , therefore no where else . and i do acknowledge i d● so conceive , that the dr. having made that the copy , and confessing infant bap●ism not to be necessarily inferred thence , and that wee must do no otherwise then christ appoints he must tacitely deny infant baptism ▪ and this inference of mine is logical . what the dr. saith to the contrary do●h not avoid it . for . it is not true that matth. . . the words are not any kinde of direction to this matter of receiving and admitting infants or not infants . for . it expresseth who are to bee baptized , when it saith , baptising them , now [ them ] must refer either to [ all nations ] without any other circumscription , and then he must appoint them to baptize every man in the world , believer or not . but that is ab●urd , ergo. or [ them ] must refer to [ disciples ] included in the verb [ disciple or make disciples ] but if so , no● onely the genti●es as well as jewes are pointed out , but also the qualification of them , whom they should baptize , they are to be disc●ples , now infants are disciples and not disciples , there 's no middle term between contradictory terms , therefore there must be some direction to baptize infants or not infants . . these words are the copy of the pattern as the dr. saith ubi suprà , therefore if these words have no direction for infant baptism , the pattern had not ; for the copy and pattern do agree with each other , as the decree and the copy of it out of the court. . it is not true that this is not the first institution wee are to have directions from in our practise , who baptize gentiles . for there is no institution concerning baptizing the gentiles before that matth ▪ . . and therefore hence must be direction for baptizing or not our infants , there being no institution precedent as concerning them . nor did the apostles follow any other , as is proved in the d . part of this review sect . . . it is false , th●t the former institution did comprehend infant baptism . the con●ra●y is proved , . from the place which sets down 〈◊〉 practise , joh ▪ . . it is there said , they made disciples and baptised ▪ whence i argue . those onely whom the apostles baptized , christ appointed to be baptized ; but they baptiz●d not in 〈◊〉 , ergo christ did not then appoint th●m to baptize them . the major is out of doubt their practise onely shewing christs institution . ●he minor is proved , . they baptize● none but whom they made disciples , but they made no infants disciples , as will be proved in t●at which follows , and may bee further thus proved . such persons were made disciples by christ and his disciple● , as were mad● disciples by john , but he made no infants d●sciples , as mi●ht be p●oved by the descriptions and acts of johns disciples in the gospels , matth. . . & . . & . . luk. . ● . joh. . , ● ▪ &c. the disciples baptized in the same manner and s●rt ●s joh● did his disciples , bu● john baptized penitent persons who were not infants , matth. . all the ●eople who were baptised by him , are said to hear him and to justifie god , ●uk . . . but these were not infants , ergo. . dr ha●mond saith le●●er of resol q. . § . ● . to make disciples , joh. . . and baptise , is all one wi●h disciple baptising , matth. ● . . but in this according to the dr. there is not any kinde of direction to that matter of receiving and admitting infants or not infants , therefore joh. . , is no mention of their baptizing infants , and so no infan●s baptized by them . . if christ had instituted infant baptism , doubtless hee would have ap●ointed it , and the disciples practised it on those mentioned matth. . , , . mark . ● , , . luk ▪ ● . , , . but he did not appoint nor they practise baptism on t●em , for it is said matth. . . that when he had put his hands on them he d●parted thence , which shews no more was done to ●hem then was before set down , whereof none was their baptizing , ergo . it is false , that direction to baptise infants was sufficiently notified to the apostles by christ. for . the common practise of the jews could not notifie it to them , c●rist ●o where appointing them to baptize according to the jewish manner , nor did they , for they baptized r●ther a●ter johns mann●● , joh. . . but that was not as the 〈◊〉 as appeares by their excepting against and rejecting his baptism luk● . . the vulgar notion ●f baptism did not no●ifie it . 〈…〉 notion of baptism did not express one sort or other , yea ●hey used to baptize other things mark ▪ , . besides persons . . if the vul●ar notion of baptism did notifie infant baptism , then it did notifie i● ma●th . ▪ . where it is expressed . but the dr. saith , those words are not any kinde of dire●●ion to that matter of receiving and admitting infants or no● infants , ergo. . the special direction of christ did not notifie i● , if i● di● ▪ let it be shewed ▪ to say , the gospels express not at all the words of the first institution of ●aptism , nor do set that down , is against the dr. for it is an high presumption in any man to assert such a special direction of christ , as neither the gospels nor other sacred writings set down , and if this may bee done , apocriphal traditions may bee vented , as papists and others have done , telling us all that christ did and said is not written , john . . besides , christ gave no other special direction to the apostles towards the jewes about baptism , afore that was done which wee read john . . then hee did to them towards the gentiles , matth. . . for that was a copy of the pattern . but he did not there appoint infant baptism as the dr. acknowledgeth , ergo. from all which i infer , that christ gave no other direction about baptism , then what is expressed matth. . . and that there hee gave directions about in●ants bap●izing or not baptizing , and that the presrciption there is to bee indispensably used , not onely about the form of words in baptism , but also about the persons wh●m we may baptize ; and that infants are excluded shall bee proved in that which followes . nor is this a pralusory 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as the dr. termes it , but such a just dissertation as toucheth the main of the cause , and shewes the doctors usurpation on christs prerogative , in defending such baptism as is otherwise then christ appointed , nor hath he brought one proof for what he saith , hee hath made evident that matth. . ● . was not the institution of baptism ▪ nor any intimation on either side whether infants should he baptized or not , but contradicted himself , and manifestly perverted the scripture . sect. . the dr. saith to my exception [ that though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is well rendred make disciples , yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not well paraph●ased by receive into discipleship all nations baptizing them , for by this the making disciples is made the same with receiving into discipleship or receiving disciples , and baptism the ceremony of receiving into discipleship , which is as truly the act of the baptized , thereby professing or avouching his discipleship ] thus . here is another subtilty of a refined nature , making a difference betwixt making disciples , and receiving into discipleship or receiving discip●es : as if these two were not perfectly synonymous , and by me evidently used , as such . i shall not dispute of words , when the matter is clear , and when it is equally to my purpose which phrase is used , whether making or receiving disciples . answ. either phrase would not have been equally to the doctors purpose , making disciples not being applicable to infants , a● perhaps it may be thought receiving disciples may , but whether either serve the doctors turn or no , and however the dr. use them , or censure my di●●inction of them , yet i take his confounding them to bee a gross mistake , and such as perverts the text , and should have been proved by him , afore he thus used it , and against it i thus argue . . those termes are not perfe●●ly synonymous , whereof the one imports that which may bee without the other , this i think none will deny ▪ but making disciples may bee without receiving them . this is manifest . for a person is not a disciple afore he is made , but he is made a disciple before he is received , therefore the one may bee without the other . . the agents may be divers in making and receiving disciples , a woman may make a disciple , but not receive him . . the meanes is different , the making disciples is by teaching , as shall bee shewed in that which followes , and is an act of diligence ; the receiving i● admission by authority . . making imports an action , receiving rather a passion . . making disciples doth presuppose a privation of it , y●a perhap● averseness from it ; receiving presupposeth a habit attained , and a willing offer . . the making disciples may be to another , but receiving disciples is to bee ascribed to the master to whom they a●e d●sciples , as to himself receiving them . . dr. hammond acknowledgeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to import the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 j●hn . . letter of resol . q. . § . . but john . . it cannot bee rendered receive disciple● , therefore nei●her matth . . nei●her matth. . nor any where else hath any transl●tor i knew , rendered [ receive disciples ] but many , make disciples , and make it as the dr. the phrase parallel to john . . and therefore it is singular and absurd to render it here receive disciples . secondly , sait● he , when hee affirms of baptism which i make the ceremony of the apostles receiving them , that 't is as true●y the 〈◊〉 of the bap●ized , this is no sub●ilty , but gross and visible enough . for certainly baptism in the active sense ( as it is plain i understand it in that place where i paraphrase go and make disciples and baptize ) is not the act of the baptized but of the baptist , the comming to baptism indeed and the undertaking the vow , and making the profession , is the act of the baptized , either personally or by his proxy , which in reputation of law and in acceptation of the church , i● his also , but still baptism , or ( to remove all p●●sible mistake ) baptizing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 matth. . . is an act of the baptizer onely , and so the ceremony of receiving into discipleship , whomsoever they thus duely baptize . i hope i need say no more of this . answ. i said not baptizing , but baptism the ceremony ( not ●s the dr. mis●recites my words , o● receivers into discipleship , but ) of receiving into discipleship is as truely the a●● of the baptized , thereby p●ofessing or avouching h●s discipleship as of the baptizer , and therefore the baptized is not meerly passive in it , nor an infant doth unde●go it . and i prove it thus . . baptism is a duty of the baptiz●d as well as of the baptizer , as may bee proved from acts . . where the apostle exhorts them to repent and bee baptized every one of them , in the name of christ jesus for the remission of sins ; now that which a man is exhorted to as his duty , is his own act . ergo. i● any say it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the passive voice , hee may understand that luk. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though it bee the same sense and voice , yet notes the action of the baptized . . it is manifest also from the command to paul , acts. . . that baptism is the act of the baptized for first , it is a thing commanded to bee done by him . . it is in the middle voice , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which though i deny not to have a passive signification , yet here , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cannot have any other then active signification because of the accusative cause following , so neither can the other , both being injoyned as duties , and the washing away sins being not meant of forgiveness of them but turning from them ; baptism being the signe of his repentance , and both being to be joyned together , acts . . and therefore baptism being called , mark● . . acts . . . bapti●ing into the name of the father , son and holy ghost , notes the a●● of t●e baptized as well as the baptizer , and thi● is fully taught by dr. hammond himself practic . cat . lib. . sect . . where he saith ● ● baptize thee into the name of the father , and of the son , and of the holy ghost ● being pr●scribed by christ to his disciples must indispensably be used ▪ and the meaning of them is double . . on the ministers part , that what he doth hee doth no● of himsel● , but in the name or power of , or by commission from the blessed trinity ( which by the way , i am sure none can 〈…〉 ●pparent 〈…〉 when they baptize infants , much less when ●hey onely sprinkle them . ) . and more especially in respect of the pe●son baptized . . that he acknowledges these three , a●d by desiring baptism makes profession of that acknowledgment , which is in effect the sum of the whole ●reed . . that as he acknowledges these three , so he delivers himself to them , as to the three principles or authors of faith or christian religion , and acknowledges no other as such ( as to be baptised in the name of paul signifie● to say , i am of paul , i. e. to●●●has ●●●has and all other ) to receive for infallible truth whatsoever is taught by any of these and no●hing else . . that he delivers himself up to be ruled as an obedient servant by the directions of this great master , a willing disciple of this blessed trinity , and so the greek phrase ● into the name ] doth import ; and these th●ee acts of the baptised together , make up his part by way of condition required of him to make him ca●able of that grace , which the minister from god thus conveys upon and ensures unto him . besides which it notes the calling on the name of the father by the son , through the h●ly spirit , as acts . ● . shews , where paul is bid to be baptized or baptize himself , calling on the name of the lord , when baptized ; and this i have proved to be meant 〈◊〉 luk. . . and other 〈◊〉 review part . . sect . . p. ● ▪ ● , ● . so that baptism 〈◊〉 as well ( or rather more ) the ce●emony of th● baptized , 〈◊〉 ●● the baptizer ▪ which might be proved from tho●e texts which speak 〈◊〉 the use of it , as rom. . , . col. . ● . gal. ▪ . cor. . ● . in all which and sundry more the act of the ba●t●zed is noted , who d●th thereby signifie his baptism into ●hrists death , being 〈◊〉 by ba●tism into death , and his rising to newness of life , putting on christ , ●oyning into one body , &c. which i have cleered more fully in the same p●ace pag , , ● . and this , the dr saith 〈…〉 , i● more especially meant by ba●tising into the name of the father , son and holy spirit ▪ 〈…〉 their act as w●ll as the administrators ▪ . i● baptism were not as truely the act of the baptized as the baptizer t●en it should be t●u● baptism , if the baptizer did d●p with●ut an concu●●● 〈◊〉 of the bap●ized , yea ●hough he we●e forced to it , and against his will put unde● water , and this were warrantably done by the baptizer , for he should do what ●s prescribed , but this is absurd , neither school men nor any other allow such baptism , vide th. aquin. sum . part . . qu. . art . , . the spaniards driving the indians into the water forcibly for baptism , and their going in thus under water is excepted against as neither rightly done , nor true baptism . therefore certainly baptizing prescribed mat. . . doth comprehend not onely the act of the administratour , but also the act of the baptized , in yeilding to it and concurring with it . when peter acts . . commanded cornelius and those with him to be baptised in the name of the lord , there were three acts concurrent . . the apostles command , by way of authority appointing it to be done . . o● the administratour by way of ministry . . of the baptized by way of submission and putting himself under water . yet hee is no● thereby a meer sebaptist ▪ as i● is reported some heretofore have been , but is partly passive in consent , and s●bmission to what the baptizer doth , and partly a●tive in concurring with him . so that my speech is cleered from being gross , as ●● dr. would . dr. h. adds . his second branch of exception is to those words of mine , wherein i say tha● the making or receiving disciples , supposeth not any precedent instru●tion , but looks wholly on it as subsequent . against this i gave reasons of dissent thus . . that which is exprest in matthew by , go ye therefore and make disciples all nations , is in mark , go ye into all the world and preach the gospel ●o every living creature ; which s●ews , how they should disciple all nations ; now they who are made disciples by preaching the gospel , are made disciples by precedent instruction , ergo , the making or receiving disciples matth. . . supposeth precedent instruction . but to this ( saith the dr. ) i answer ; . that the words in mark are no otherwise parallel to those in matthew , then as an epitome is parallel to a la●ger discourse , such we know s. marks for the most part is , an abbreviation of s. matthews gospel , as in many others , so in this particular ; some passages indeed there are in s. mark in this place , which are not i● s. matthew , as shall anon be shewed , but in the particular now before us , s. mark is according to wont more concise : there is no mention in him of baptizing in the name of the father , and of the son , and of the holy ghost , nor consequently of discipling , of which that was the ceremony , as in s. matthew there is . answ this doth rather confirm my major then oppose it . for if mark express the same more briefly and matthew more largely in this particular , and there is no other expression in mark besides , go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature , which answe●s to matthews words , go make disciples all nations ▪ then what is exprest in matthew is the same with that which is exprest in mark. and indeed the time , occasion , and expressions 〈◊〉 so plainly evince this , that almost all editions and translations ( which use marginal references ) and commentators i have seen , expound the one by the other . secondly , saith the dr. that christs appointment 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to preach the gospel , 〈◊〉 mark , doth no way infer ●he precedent instruction of every single person that was received to baptism : the phrase signifies to proclaim or promulgate the happy tydings brought into the world by christ , grace , and mercy , and eternal felicity to all that should come into him , and take his yoke upon them , and learn of him . and upon the publishing of this to all the world to every creature , i e. to the gentiles universally , as well as the jews , i suppose 't is very possible , that many of them should make all speed to come unto christ , and come out at the apostles preaching , they and their whole housholds together ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as the oracle commanded in homer ) and to bring their infant children , as they used to do , that became proselytes to the jews , and then the apostles knowing their masters minde for receiving of infants , and that ( as from the institution i suppose them fore instructed ) to baptism , receive them all , and ( as many as interposed no voluntary hinderance ) baptize them ; and having taken them into the school of christ , make good provision for the future instruction of them , as soon as ever they should be capable of it . that thus it was , i pretend not ( still ) to deduce from these words matth. . but to infer from ano●her medium , the practise of the apostles otherwise notified to us : all that i am now to manifest is , that this passage hath nothing contrary to our hypothesis , but is perfectly reconcileable with i● , and this is done by the scheme thus laid : and so 't is most visible how no force there is in this first reason of exception . answ. it is most visible that the dr. was in a dream when he wrote this ; . because he talks of an institution ( which is onely i●agined by him ) of receiving infants , and as many as interposed no voluntary hinderance to baptize them ( not excepting infidel● children , contrary to his own interpretation of cor. . . which declares them unclean , that is , not to be baptiz●d in the drs. sense ) and to take infants into the school of christ , as if the school of christ were to nurse up infants , for that was all could be done to them , and to make good pro●ision for the future instruction of them , as soon as ever they should be capable of it . which is so ridiculous a conceit , as no waking man me thinks should fancy it . for what provision could the apost●es , who were to go and preach the gospel to every creature , make for the future instruction of them , as soon as ever they should be capable of it , who were not to stay till they were able to speak , or receive any commands from them ? . the dr. as if he forgot his matter in hand , saith ; all that he was then to manifest , was that this passage matth. . . hath nothing contrary to his hypothesi , but is perf●●●ly reconcileable to it ; whereas his business was to answer my argument against his position , that the making or receiving disciples matth. . supposeth not any precedent instruction , but looks wholly on it a● subsequentpunc ; . the drs. answer , that christs appointment to ●reach the gospel in s. mark , doth no way infer the p●ecedent instruction of every single person that was received to baptism , might be true , yet his position false , that the making disciples matth. . . supposeth not any precedent instruction , but loo●s wholly on it as subsequent . . his reason why to preach the gospel in s. mark , doth no way infer the precedent instruction of every single person that was received to baptism , shews his talk to have been incoherent , like the talk of a man in a dream ; for what consequence is in this , the phrase signifies , &c. ergo , to preach the gospel in s. mark , doth no way infer the precedent instruction of every single person that was received to baptism ? might not all this be true , that the phrase so signifies , they so publish , the thing set down be possible , the apostles know christs minde , as the dr. imagines , and ye● to preach the gospel in s. mark , infer the precedent instruction of every single person that was received to baptism ? so that in all this whi●h the dr saith , there i● no answer to my argument . but the truth is , by the drs. own grants my argument is m●de good . for if preaching the gospel be instruction , and this be the way of making disciples , which are not deni●d ; then it must needs go before makin● or ●eceivi●g disciples , sith the m●anes in order of actual b●ing , must be before the effect , and so the drs. position fa●se : that the making or receiving disciples supposeth not a●y precedent instruction , matth. ● . . but lo●ks wholly on it as subsequent again , if afore baptiz●ng they were to publish the gospel to all the world , to every creature , i. e. to the gentiles univ●rsally as well the jews , then afore any single person was r●ceived to baptism , instruction wa● to be precedent , unless there were any single person which was not comprised under all the world , every creature , gentiles universally as well as jews : yea the terms [ every creature and all nations ] comprehend every person that was to be baptized , and more ; but they were every one to be made disciples , and that by preaching the gospel to them , afore they were to be bapt●zed ; matth. . . mark . . therefore instruction of every single person was to be precedent to his reception to baptis● . hereto agree the words of athanasius , hierom and others , cited by me , review part . . sest . . p. , . the d . saith the dr. followes , that such as the making disciples w●s , joh. . . such is the making disciples matth. . . for by the drs. confession they are all one . but that was by preaching , as is plain concerning john , matth. . , , , . and concerning the apostles , mat. . , , . ergo ▪ whence . i further a●gued , that way the apostles were to disciple all nations , by which they were to disciple the lost sheep of the house of israel , but that was by preaching , ergo , discipling supposeth precedent instruction . to this , saith the dr. i answer , that the account last given is fully satisfactory to this exc●p●ion also ; for supposing the apostles to publish wheresoever they came the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the good news that was come into the world by christ , and the hearers not onely to come in themsel●es , but to bring ●heir whole families , and so their infant children with them , there is no difficulty to imagine , that they had thus made proclamation , received all , and made all disciples , young and old , that either came or were brought , and so it being the instru●ent to draw the parents themselves , and to move them to bring their children to discipleship , it is still very visible how children should be discipled , and conse●uently baptized by them , baptism being the constant ceremony of discipling . and though i am not able to affirm how it was actually in johns baptism , yet this i may say , that as far as can be discerned or inferred from the phrase in either place ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) thus it very possibly might be both in johns and the apo●●les baptizing . answ. it is so far from being satisfactory , that there is neither pertinency nor truth in this answer . for the dr. answers , as if the thing i proved were not , that making disciples presupposeth instruction , because it is by preaching , but that i●fants might be made disciples , though making disciples b● by preaching ; which is indeed not to answer to the argument , but to a consectary deducible from the conclusion of it , which though it were not infer●ed nor consequent , yet the conclusion might be true that discipling presupposeth some precedent instruction , and is not wholly subsequent to it . nor is it true . for . supposing the apostles should do as he speaks , and the hearers come in as hee imagines , yet there is difficulty to imagine , tha● they that had thus made proclamation received all , and made all disciples , young and old , that either came or were bro●ght un●o them ; s●ecially considering how john received n●ne wee read of but such as confessed ●heir sins , and the whole people that were baptized of him justified god , luk . . believed him , matth. . . o●hers not , and the apostles are said to make disciples afore they baptized , jo● . . . and a●o●e they bap●ized required repentance , act. . . those who were baptized gladly received the word , v. . . it beeing granted that they made disciples by preaching , preaching being the instrum●nt to draw the parents themselves , and to move them to bring their children to discipleship , yet it is not very visible how children should bee discipled ; for 〈◊〉 ●ffection or conceit , might m●ve them to do that upon preaching ▪ which yet might not take effect , nor be received by the apostles . . nor is baptism consequent on such a discipleship , by offer or vow of p●rent● , wit●out profession of the party to be bap●ized , there being no institution for it , which is the onely rule about bap●izing . . neither i● it ●rue , that baptism is the constant ceremony o● discipling , though it be granted to be the ceremony of disciples , a person is first a disciple afore baptized , joh. . they first made disciples then baptized them . . it is n●t ●rue , that as far as can be discerned or inferred from the phrase in either place ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) it might not very possibly be both in johns and in the apostles baptizing as the dr. imagin● , sith ( if there be degrees of possibility ) it is not very possible they should make any oth●r disciples and baptize them , then such as the evangelists story relates they did . but the dr. tels us . . for john , 't is true indeed that his baptism attended his preaching , yet doth it not thence necessarily follow that none were baptised by him , but those who particularly heard and obeyed his preaching ; for . why might not those that heard it , divulge it to others , and bring them before they heard him to desire to bee baptised , and upon their confessing their sins , and professing amendment , hee baptise them ? answ. not likely before he had preached somewhat to them , however if his preaching were brought to them by others , they were not baptized afore instruction . . why might not those that heard it , or heard of it , give that heed to it , as to bring all that were dear to them of what age soever , by that means to secure them from the wrath to come ; when noah preacht repentance to the old world , and upon the decree of sending the flood upon the world of the ungodly , called all to come into the ark to him to escape the deluge , suppose others besides noahs family h●d hearkened to his preaching , or suppose hee and his sons had had infant children , can we imagine they would have lef● their inf●n●s to that certain ruine , and not have taken them into the ark with them ? and johns baptism was answerable to that ark , in respect of that approaching ruine on the jews , stiled the kingdome of heaven v . and that evidenced to be a bloudy kingdome , explicated by casting into the fire v. . and can we imagine the jews that believed john , and came to his baptism , did not bring th●se childr●n with them to save them from the predicted evils and then i profess not to see any reason to render it incredible that john baptist should thus receive and baptize those infants ( though the scripture affirmi●g nothing of it , and tradition , as far as i know , as little , i shall neith●r affirm nor believe any thing . ) this only is certain , that among the jews of that time , infant children were known to be capable of entring into covenant with god after this manner , and of being partakers of the benefit of the covenant by that means . and one thing more i may add , that christ himself , who was by his sinlesness , as un●ualified for the repentance which john preacht , as the infants were by their incapacities , did yet come and was received to johns baptism , v. . and then in case infants were brought , why might not they be received also ? answ. because it was not appointed to them . and this is a reason ( which the dr. may see if he will ) to render it incredible that john should receive and baptize infants , though infants of proselytes born afore their proselytism were by jews baptized , who baptized upon a far different reason , to wit , the pollution through idols , which did adhere to the gentiles nativity , to wash away that , and to engage them to the observance of moses law for righteousne●s ▪ whereas john baptist baptized with the baptism of repentance for remission of sins , even native jews , directing them to the lamb of god who was to take away the sin of the world , and that he might be known was to be baptized of him . we can therefore easily imagine , that the jews that believed ●ohn and came to his baptism , did not bring infant children with them to save them from predicted evils , because wee reade that they t●at were baptized of him confessed their sins , matth. . . . justified god , luk . . nor was baptism appointed to them as to proselytes infants , nor do wee reade that john baptist gave any inkling of his minde to have infants brought . and it i● a signe to me that the dr. is confident that hee can leade men in a string , who adventures to ●uggest such things as he confesseth the scripture affirms nothing of it , and tradition as little , as far as he knows , and neither affirms nor beleives any thing in it , and onely upon a supposition that infan● c●ildren would have been brought 〈◊〉 noahs ark if men had beleived noah , and johns baptism was as noahs ark stiled the kingdome of heaven , whereas johns and christs baptism are not made answerable to noahs ark in respect of the bare outward baptism , nor is it stiled the kingdome of heaven , but the answer or interrogation of a good conscience towards god by the resurrection of jesus christ , pet. . . and the preaching , beleiving of the gospel throughout the world , mar. . , . which they who were baptized were to entertain , and not infants , and therefore not to be baptized till they did . and wee may with better reason , then the dr. gives of his fancy , conceive gods providence rather ordered there should be no infants in noahs ark , that we might not fancy infants baptism thence , then that we should as this dr. or doatard supposeth . yet again , saith he , then . for as much as concerned the apostles , ma● . . f●rst 't is there evident that they were sent to the lost sheep indefinitely , and sure that phrase comprehends the lambs also , the infant children being lost in adam as well as the grown men , by the addition of their actual to original sin ? and then why should we doubt but the apostles mission extended to them also ? answ. because we reade of no such thing done or appointed to be done , nor do we know that baptism was appointed to bee a remedy of original sin , though some of the ancients talk so besides the scripture . the dr. adds . and . for their preaching , it is just as as johns was , to warn them to beware of the imminent destruction , that vindicative act of god , kingdome , v. . that all that sh●uld give ear and heed them , might hasten to get out of that danger by reformation and new life ; and the ruine being impendent to the young as well as old , even the whole nation , why should not the infant children be rescued from that by their parents care in bringing them to baptism , and timely ingaging them to flye from the wrath to come , as soon as they should come to understanding , injoying in the mean time the benefit of others charity ? answ. it was fit they should enjoy the benefit of others charity in their prayers , and supply of ●uch things as were meet for them , of which sort the apost●es baptism was not , nor did they understand it was christs minde that they were sen● to baptize them , for then they had baptized them , and not rebuked those that brought them to christ , matth. . . nor by bringing them to baptism were children rescued from the wrath to come , but by reformation and new life . thirdly , saith he , after their preaching though there be no mention of ba●tizing ( and so it was not fit to be produced to our present b●siness ) yet other things are appointed to be done , wherein infants were concerned as well as others , as healing of diseases , &c. and if being incapable of receiving benefit from preaching should be deemed an obstacle to their being baptized , why should it not to their receiving cures ? answ. because that they might be baptized , it was necessary they should be made disciples by preaching , not so that they might be cured of diseases . nay i may add , saith the dr. how should the dead in that place ( who sure were as uncapable of understanding as the tenderest infants ) be capable of being raised by those apostles , which yet is there affirmed of them , v. . answ. and i may add , that after this rate of reason , if mere capacity of outward baptism , and the charge of christ to the apostles to do acts of power on any thing , without making it a disciple by preaching to it ( as the dr. here fancieth of infants ) fit it for baptism , then the dead are to be baptized , which was practised of old , and the giving them the eucharist , as appears by the prohibition of it in the third synod of carthage canon . and balsamous note thereon . but the dr. it seems thought it ●t in this reply to me , to write what came next to hand , whether it were fit to be produced to the present business o● not , of which sort also is that which he talks in answer to my third reason , of preaching to the nations , and receiving all that come in to the discipleship , whether on their own legs , or in others arms , whole families at once , the parents , and upon their undertaking their infant children also , which perhaps the dr. might write early in the morning or late at night , between sleeping and waking , it is so like a dream . the dr. goes on thus , his fourth proof is taken from the use and notation of the word , which is so to teach as that they learn , and so , saith he , is used matth . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendred [ instructed ] by our last translators , and can no otherwise be rendred then [ made a disciple by teaching ] so acts . . it is said , havi●g preached the gospel to that city , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , having taught or made many disciples . for the notation of the word we have formerly said sufficient , that i● signifies to receive ad discipulatum , as into a school of spiritual in●truction , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to make a disciple , and such he is made , 〈◊〉 by any motive or means either comes or i● brought into the school , this indeed in order to teaching in the master , and to learning in the scholler , and the one so to teach , as that the other learn , but this sub●equ●nt to his being made a disciple , the youth wee know enters into the school , is admitted into the colledge and university , before ●e learns a word there , the instruction or learning is still lookt upon as futur● , at his entring into discipleship . answ. how vainly doth the dr. talk of his former sufficient saying , when he neither formerly nor now , give● one instance in the new testament or any other author ▪ wherein 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is as much to receive ad discipulatum , nor any translator or lexicographer that so renders it matth. . . or elsewhere ! 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to disciple , matth. . . is confest by the dr. to bee all one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to make disciples joh. ▪ . now sure the d● ▪ might we ll take his readers for dunses , if they could not distinguish between making disciples and receiving ad discipulatum , to be made disciples , entring into a school that they might learn , and being made a disciple , which alwayes notes learning of something an●eceden● . nor is any termed a disciple , at least not in the new testament ▪ till he ha●● learned some of his teachers doctrine ; none were the disciples of the pharisees , john baptist , the seducers , acts . , till they learned some of their teachers lessons , nor do i think in the jewish writers are any termed the disciples of their rabbins , or said to be discipled till they learned . the terming youths schollers at their first entring is nothi●g to the purpose , sith neither is a disciple and a scholler all one , the one being from learning , the other from vacation from other imployment that he may learn. nor is the use of words in our universities and schools , any rule whereby to expound the use of words in the n.t. but scrip●ure is to be expounded by the use in scripture , which the dr. in vain attempts to evade thus . and this is all ●he importa●ce of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 matth. . . onely some accidental differences may bee observed , 't is in the passive and in the aorist in the prete●●ense , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , every scribe which is or hath been entred as a disciple unto the kingdome of heaven , who since his entrance hath been instructed , and ( as real passiv●s import ) received influence , been really affected and changed by discipleship , st●ll no way supposing that he was instructed in the learning or mysteries of the king ●ome of heaven , before he was thus admitted a disciple to it ; after his admission , there is no doubt but he doth ( or ought to ) learn , nay being here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a scribe discipled , a grown man and learned among the jews , before he came to christ , i doubt not but some knowledge he had of it before he entred himself a disciple ( see bap●izing of in●ants p. . ) bu● this not by force of t●e word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for still a disciple he may be before he learns , and is therefore obliged to learn , because he hath assumed and undertaken to do so , either personally , or by others susception , by his comming , or being brought to be a disciple . answ. were not the dr. a very bold paraphrast , he would never have dared to say , that this is all the im●ortance of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 matth. . . to be entred into a school for a subsequent instruction witho●t any precedent , which is or hath been entred as a disciple into the kingdome of heaven , who since his entrance hath been instructed , but this not by force of the word , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for still a disciple he may be before he learns . hath the dr. the face to say that the words might be so understood every scribe that is or hath been entred as a disciple unto the kingdome of heaven is like unto a man that is an housholder , which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old ? doth not our lord christ infer this as a consequent of their hearing , and understanding of the parables wherein he had instructed them in the foregoing part of the chapter ? is there any translator or commentator afore him that hath thus expounded it ? the vulgar hierome , ●igurine , reade doctus , learned beza , edoctus , well learned . hierome expounds it thus , instru i erant apostoli , scribae & not arii salvatoris , qui verba illius & praecepta signabant in tabuli● cordis carnalibus regnorum c●lestium s●cramentis . grotius annot . in locum , doctor . inquit , bene paratus atque eruditus ad tradenda praecepta regni c●lestis . yea the dr. himself here explains 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thus , a scribe discipled , a grown man and learned among the jews , before he came to christ ; though he doth grosly abuse the text by making as if the scribe were taken for one so termed among the jews afore he came to christ , whereas the term is used of christian teachers , ●●lusively to that orde● of men among the jews termed scribes , in which sense christ saith , he would send them wise men and scribes , matth. . . which is luke . . apostles , and that text chrysostome in his homily on matth. . . makes like to it , and grotius annot . in locum , propriè autem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 respo●dent ii qui in ecclesia christiana dicti sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , quod nomen in actis & epistolis pauli aliquoties legitur . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 psal. . . and prov. . . it is no better then a whimzy which the dr. here ven●s , as if the force of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 noted not learning but admission to school , when the ve●y use of the word notes in this place one well learned ; and to assert a man may bee a disciple before he learns , being onely obliged to learn , by his own or other susception , by his comming or being brought to be a disciple , w●en the very derivation is from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ hath learned . the dr. saith f●r her . so in the ot●er place acts . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] signifies no more then having received or initiated , i e. ( i suppose ) by thi● righ● of baptism , made and baptized many di●ciples , whic● though it be there set down as a consequ●nt of the apostles preaching the gospel in ●hat city ( for otherwise it were not imaginable that they shou●d receive any disciples there , they must first proclaim admission to all that come , before any c●n be expected ●ither to come or to be brought to them ) yet may it very reasonably be extended to more persons then those that understood their preaching , viz. to the infant children of their proselytes brought to them by their parents , and dedicated to christ. answ. this text was produced to prove that the d●s . position was false when he said , that the making or receiving disciples supposeth not any precedent instruction , but looks wholly on it as subsequent , sith the word notes ●eaching as our translators , the vulgar , erasmus , reade it , and the way of making disciples is expresly made in the text , the preaching of the gospel . the dr. saith , it signifies no more then having received or initiated i. e. ( he sup●oseth ) by baptism , but this none else saith , and that it may be reasonably extended to infants , but he gives no reason , nor answers the objections to the contrary , but he keeps his wont of vain cracikng . thus invailid ( saith he of me ) are his attempts from the notation of the word , and by consequence his inference from thence ( which is set down as his fifth proof ) that thereby it may appear how the apostles understood the precept of christ to preach the gospel to persons and thereby make them disciples . for although the practise of the apostles be indeed the meanes by which we may discern how they understood christ● precept ( and those two places cited by mr. t. from matth. . and acts . do no way belong to that , they tell us not whether they received infants to baptism or not ) yet i may very well ward my self from any inconvenience , which this use of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in other places can threaten , it being already vindicated from all necessity that it should be confirmed to grown men , and not communicated to infants also . answ. how well the dr. hath vindicated the use of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from all necessity that it should be confined to grown men , may appear from that which goes before , in which it may be seen that he hath neither brought one place to shew that ever it was applied to an infant , nor answered one objection to the contrary . and me thinks he here overthrowes himself . he had said before ▪ that acts . ● ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] signifies no more then ha●ing received , or initiated , i. e. ( i suppose ) by this rite of baptism made and baptized many disciples , yet he saith here , those two places cited ●y mr. ● . from matth. . and acts . do no way belong to that , they tell us not whether they received infants to baptism or not , how then can they be extended●o ●o them ? how is the word vindicated from all necessity that it should be confined to grown men ? are not these cross caper● ? again , if these texts tel● us not whether they received infants to baptism , or not , it is because the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not meant of infants , or because it imports precedent instruction , or christs precept matth. . . was not meant of infants , or the apostles practise was not to baptize infants , or the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies more then receiving or initiating by baptism or some other reason ▪ what ever it be it will overthrow the drs. supposition , that the discipling matth. . . did not exclude infants . i would further ask , whether the dr. imagins that the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to disciple , be as much as to baptize ? if he say it is , then i would know how he can acquit the words joh. . . where he confesseth , that making disciples is the same with discipling , matth. . . and then the meaning must be , he baptized and baptized , and matth. . . baptize baptizing , from inept ●autology ? if he say it is more , then it is false , that acts . . it signifies no more , and if it signifie more , let him tell us what it is except teaching , that we may practise it according to the command matth. . . if that be it , let him shew how that 's extended to infants , if he cannot , then the apostles practise expressed acts . . is to be so understood ; and the apostles practise being indeed the meanes to discern how they understood c●rists precept , by that we may discern that the apostles understood the discipling matth. . . of no other then making disciples by preaching the gospel to each , and thereby teaching them , and consequently infants are excluded , which i was to demonstrate . i added a sixth proof thus , a disciple and a believer appear to be the same , by comparing matth. . . with mark . , . for as the way of making disciples is more fully expressed by preaching the gospel ; so the disciple to be baptized is expressed by [ the believer ] which is put before bap●ism . to this , saith the dr. i answer , ● . that that passage in st. mark , he that beleiveth and is baptized shall be saved , and he that beleiveth not shall be damned , and so on to the end of the gospel is ( as even now i intimated ) added by that evangelist , to the words , as they are set down in matthew , and so being an addition , cannot bee looked on as exactly parallel to the words in matthew , go and disciple all nations baptizing them ▪ and this we also know is ordinary for one evangelist to set down more fully what is omitted or more shortly set down in the other , and s. mark that in other things was willing to abbreviate s● . matthew , doth now visibly inlarge ; and so the comparison cannot regularly be made betwixt these ●wo evangelists words ▪ something being abbreviated in mark , which was more at large in matthew , and something more conci●ely set down in matthew , and more largely in mark. and then what necessity is there , that mark not mentioning discipling but believing , and matthew men ioning discipling but not bel●eving , the discipled and believers should be deemed the same . 't is true indeed of grown men , none can in reason be admitted disciples , which are not also believers ( the ground of which i have set down in the resol of the quaerep . . ) but of infant children this is not true , for those , though they cannot come , may yet be brought , and though not upon their own confession , yet by the susception of others , made capable of the churches charity , and so may be disciples without actual or personal belief . answ. though the words are not exactly parallel , yet they being of the same matter at the same time , the one interpret the other , and then any man may easily perceive , discipling all nations , to be the same with preaching the gospel to every creature , and thereby making disciples , and baptizing them , that is disciples , to answer to ●e that believes and is baptized , and accordingly all along the acts of the apostles , disciples and believers are the same , and before baptism believing is required , and they that were baptized were first s●id to believe , and so generally commentatours expound the words as synonymous , nor doth the scripture make one qualification to baptism for infants , and another for grown men , nor any where term infants disciples ; and if none of grown men can in reason be admitted disciples , which are not also believers , con●ent to be disciples of christ , then infants by their susception and bringing , are not made nor to be admitted discipl●s of christ , without act●al or personal belief ▪ there being no such distinction of disciples in christs words , nor any such appointment of baptizing disciples by such bringing or susception ▪ but in such actions there is great sin o● rashness in those that undertake , of prophaneness in those that bri●g and admit nor is there any true charity , but errour , arrogance , and folly in the church , which shall thus presume to put one kinde of disciples ●ancied by themselves in stead of another appoint●d by christ , who is the onely institutor of baptism , and so the onely r●gulator of it , and ●he term [ disciple ] in grown men , being the same with [ believer ] nor any other termed a disciple but a believer , it is clear none are discipled , and conseq●ently none are to be baptized according to matth. , . but actual and personal believers . but the dr. hath not yet done , but adds . nay dly , if mr. t. his argument had power to infer it , 't were that which i might safely avouch , that infants may be comprehended under the stile 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they that b●lieve and are bap●ized ; so even now we had it in the express words of christ , the little ones ( and s. luke specifies them to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 little infants ) that believe on him ; i. e. just as they are said elsewhere to come unto him , when they are as uncapable for want of bodily strength of personal comming , as for want of strength of mind or judgement of personal believing , and yet in respect of others bringing them to christ ( and so to the church in baptism ) they are by christ himself said to do both of these , to come in one place , and to believe in the other . answ. comming imports onely a local motion to a place or person , and may be by either a persons or things motion from an inward or outward principle in elder or younger persons , he that is carried in a coach , or on horseback , or by barge , is said to come to london or home , as well as he that goes on foot ; but believing is an immanent act , which neither is , no● can be ano●hers a●t then the persons , nor by any others motion then his own , nor from any other principle without his own understanding . no where are infants in age termed believers , one of these little ones , matth. . . cannot be meant of little ones in age , for it supposeth then more li●tle ones in age then present , whereas there was b●t one present v. . and then it would be a very great sin to offend a little one in age ; but the wo●ds following v. , . shew the term little ones to be meant of those christians who were apt to be despised , and liable to going astray . but if infants were meant matth. . . yet it is false which the dr. saith , that he might safely avouch that infants may be comprehended under the stile 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they that believe and are baptized , for it followes in the drs. own words ; but then dly , i willingly acknowledge that the word [ believe ] in mark , belongs peculiarly to the grown men and women who are called by the preaching of the gospel , of whom though it bee said , that believing and being baptized they shall be saved , and not believing they shall be damned , yet it no way followes , that none but such as thus personally believed , should be baptized , or that being baptized they should not be saved ; but lose all the benefit of their baptism . ] so that the dr. yeilding that mark . . is meant of grown persons peculiarly , he could not safely avouch ( unless an untruth might be safely avouched ) that infants may be comprehended under the stile 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they that believe and are baptized , which is onely mark . . and then it follows hence that none are to be counted disciples but believers , nor any to be baptized but such . the benefit of bap●ism to infants i think is none , sure not salvation without faith in act or seed , or something equivolent . it followes in the dr. the latter part of the words is considerable , he that believeth not shall be damned , infidelity is pitcht on as the thing peculiarly that incurs the certain damnation , i. e. the voluntary resisting the faith when it is preached convincingly to them , and of that none are capable , but those that are arrived to years of understanding ; which as it is an indication that that v ▪ and those that follow in s. mark of believers casting out devils , &c. v. , . belong to adulti peculiarly , so it no way hinders , but s. matthews words being different from them , and supposed to be precedent to them in christs delivery , may comprehend infants also , as such who are capable of e●tring into discipleship , and of being brought and presented to the apostles by believing pa●ents . this being the way whereby the faith of the parents may be signally beneficial to the child , in bringing him thus early into the school , and so to the benediction of christ , the parents together with the infant children , as among the jewes so among christian● , entring together into covenant with god. answ. i did ever conceive and so do others , and me thinks the dr. should conceive so too , that the commission mark . , . is the same ▪ though with some variation of words , but not of matter , with that matth. . . and if so , the dr. hath granted and proved enough here to shew that believers mark . . are onely adulti capable of understanding , and so none other disciples to be baptized matth. . . which is that i was to prove ; and need therefore adde no more to refute his stale crambe of his jewish p●ttern , but shall consider what he saith for his position of making disciples without precedent instruction . dr. hammond defence of infants baptism ch . ● ▪ sect . . p. . writes thus ; i say that the making or receiving disciples , supposeth not any precedent instruction , but looks wholly on it as subsequent . this ● there concluded not from the bare negative , because there was no precedent mention of such instruction , where discipling and baptizing were both mentioned , but because in that place on which the antipaedobaptist so much relies , matth. . .● the [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 teaching ] is expresly mentioned after discipling and baptizing , and so is in reason to be deemed , and lookt on , as subsequent to both , and so the receiving ad discipulatum , refer to that then future instruction , p. . in this matter mr. t. is willing to finde a difference betwixt teaching them to observe all things whatsoever christ hath commanded them , matth. . . and the preaching of the gospel in s. mark : thinking by that means to avoid the importunity of that text in matthew , which evidently sets baptism before instructing . but this can avail him nothing . for if by the gospel in mark we understand the whole gospel , as in reason we must , for that is ●t which must be preacht to every creature ( the gentile world ) then is that directly all one with teaching them to observe whatsoever he hath commanded ; but if by preaching the gospel we mean no more then , as mr. t. here saith , that jesus is the christ , i. e. the proposing him as a master , and calling all to come to him as disciples , then this being supposed precedent to mens comming to discipleship , or bringing their infants to it ( for without this they cannot be expected to come themselves , or to bring their infants ) all the ●est is left to follow baptism , and so all particular christian instruction is subsequent ▪ not precedent to baptism , an effect of their discipleship , attending it no way necessary to prepare for it , which is the u●most 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which from that circumstance of that text i undertook to demonstrate . answ. that the dr. saith not true in this , is manifest from his words , which were , not 〈◊〉 here , that all particular christian instruction besides the proposing christ as a master , and calling all to come to him as disciples is subsequent , but this letter of resol . q. . § . . having said that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not duly exprest by our english , teach , but make disciples , or receive into discipleship all nations , baptizing them in the name , &c. making this form of baptism their ceremony of receiving them ; he adds , where the baptizing being immediately annexed to the making or receiving disciples , and the receiving d●sciples not supposing any precedent instruction , but looking wholly on it as subsequent , all that are thus brought and received ad discipulatum , to be for the future instructed and instituted in the christian faith , may surely bee received by baptism , the ceremo●y which is there prescribed by christ , with which to receive disci●les . from which words it is evident he made 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , without teaching to import the receiving of disciples , even infants brought by others , and not onely all particular christian instruction subse●uent to baptism , but even instruction and institution in the christian faith , and the receiving disciples supposing not any precedent instruction , but looking wholly on it as subsequent ; which if he now retract and acknowledge that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : imports more then bare admission of disciples , and includes preaching of the gospel that jesus is the christ , i. e. proposing him as a master , and calling all to come to him as disciples , and this precedent to baptism , then is some instruction in the faith necessarily precedent , and teaching by thus preaching the gospel included in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , make disciples , and none appointed to be baptized but they that are thus made disciples , and so no infants , and thus it will avail me something which i noted . as for what he saith , that in reason we must understand mark . . the whole gospel , and that then is that directly all one with teaching them to observe whatsoever he hath commanded . neither is it true , that in reason we must understand the whole gospel , but so much at least as th● apostles were wont to preach to persons afore they baptized them ( for they best understood christs commission mark . . ) which may be seen in these and such like places , acts . , &c. & . , , . & . , &c. & . , . & . , &c & . . cor. . , , &c. nor if it were true doth it follow , that then that is directly all one with teaching them to observe whatsoever hee hath commanded . for . i no where finde agenda things to be observed by us , termed the gospel , but credenda things to be believed rom. . , . & . . cor. . , . gal , . . tim. . and accordingly no where is the go●pel propounded in the imperative , as a thing to be done by us , but in the indicative mood , as a thing to be believed ; and accordingly wee are commanded mark . . to believe the gospel , and thus it is meant mark . . for after it is appointed to the apostles to preach the gospel , it is presently adde● v. . hee that believeth , to wit the gospel preached , and is baptized , shall be saved . . if it were so that the ●ospel did contain agenda , commands to be observed by us , yet to preach the gospel could not be directly all one with teaching them to observe all things whatsoever christ hath commanded , for baptism is a command of christ , yet is not any part of the subsequent instruction after baptism , which is meant by christ in those words , and yet if any , is to be accounted part of the gospel . so that it is evident , that the distinction i made between teaching the gospel and other commands was right , and that the dr. by making all the ●eaching matth. , ▪ subsequent to baptism , hath perverted the order of christ , and abused the text for the countenance of his errour of infant baptism's consistency with christs appointment , matth. . . mark . , . the dr. adds , p. . and to this sense i there made it manifest , that the definition of baptism , pet. . . did refer that baptism is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seeking to god , as to the oracle to enquire for the whole future life no way pre requiring actual instruction , but comming to christ and the church , to receive it and obey it for the future ( and that done in some sort by those that ●re brought when they are not able to come , and by the charity of the ●hurch received there . ) answ. there is neither a definit●on of baptism pet. . . nor any thing like it , nor doth the drift of the speech lead to such a concei● . that it is not a definition of baptism may appear by the properties of a definiti●n , for a definition sets down what a thing is , and is reciprocal with the thing defined , but the genus of baptism cannot bee answer , or interrogation , or stipulation baptism actively taken being an act of hands , passively of the whole body , answer , interrogation or stipulation , if by words of the tongue , if of the conscience of the minde , nor any difference f●om prayer , or vow , or such like act . nor is there any thi●g like it , there being no expression of the nature o● baptism in the church , but the use before god , nor is the intent to shew what baptism is in it self , but when it sa●es , and the speech is a comparative expression , like that in the same chapter v. , . matth. . . and other the like ; in which the meaning is , that baptism saves not when there is onely a putting away of the filthiness of the flesh , but wh●n there is with it also the answer , interrogation , or stipulation of a good conscience towards god , so that the predication is not formal but connex●ve , not shewing what i● is , but what it is accompanied with when it saves . nor is the drs. sense true . for such seeking to god as he speaks of by baptism , when a child is brought by others to learn , and by the churches charity received , doth not save as the answer of a good conscience towards god is said to do , nor is the answer , interrogation , or stipulation of a good conscience towards god without actual instruction , there is no man that makes an answer , or promises or makes an interrogation without some pre●edent instruction ▪ whose act soever it bee there must bee some knowledge of god and christ , afore there is seeking or enquiry and address to him ; nor is there any intimation of any ones bringing and the church receiving , nor any propounding any q●estion to l●arn , but if the allusion be to the use of the old questions and answers , abrenuncias ? abrenuncio . credis ? credo ▪ spondes ? spondeo ; as beza annot . in locum and others conceive : or the term note an answer or stipulation as beza , or interrogation as the vulgar ●ati● , or confession as the syriack , or examination and proving ( which as heinsius exercit. in locum conceives , is intimated as pre-requisite to baptism as well as the lords supper ) it is evidently another thing , then dr. hammonds tendring a child , or a mans own offer of himself to be entred into a school that he might learn. it is in my apprehension an act of plerophory of faith , through the resurrection of christ from the dead , the same or near that demand of the apostle . rom. . , . not such a low act which comes so many degrees ●h●r● of saving ●aith , as the drs. enquiry or address as to an oracle for future instruction ▪ by a mans own presenting himself or his child to the church for baptism is , which is so childish a conceit , as i should think should har●ly have comen into the head of such a man , did it not h●ppen to him , as to men that talk with chil●ren , to talk as a child . but he adds more of the 〈…〉 when he saith . and this farther illustrated as by the manner of children brought by parents to school , without either knowledge of letters , o● choise , or so much as w●sh ●f instruction , so by the manner of christs disciples being received of him , particularly of philip joh. . . who was called and received into discipleship as soon as ever christ met with him , i. e. before he was at all instructed by him ; and so also by the story of the jews , exod. . . who undertook to obey all the commandements of god , which hee should give , which yet were not then , but after given them , v. . which are clear evidenc●s , that those may be received into discipleship , which have not yet had precedent instruction . against this all that he hath to pretend is set down by him in these words . let putting to school be as early as the dr. will imagine , yet none is put to school till he doth know his teacher , and so none is christs disciple in scripture language till he know jesus to bee ch●ist , and take him for his lord , which infants being not capable of , they are not disciples , not to be baptized according to christs appointment . to this i answer , . that the example which i had used of children being brought to school by the care of their parents , was designed to shew no more then this , that they may be delivered up to be schollers , who as yet know nothing of what they are to learn , nor have actual willingness to acquire knowledge , and consequently that entrance into discipleship refers onely to subsequent , supposes not any precedent instruction . and this is competently evidenced by that example , though it were supposed of the child that goes to school , that he knowes his teacher , this bare knowledge of the person of his teacher , being none of the documents which hee comes to learn , but the good letters that are profest and taught in the school , nor indeed is it imaginable why a blind child which is brought to school , or put to an instructer , and so cannot bee deemed to know the master before assuetude hath acquainted him with him , should not yet bee said , with as full propriety of speech , to come to school , as he that useth his own eyes as well as feet to direct him thither . answ. no child is ever entred a scholler without some such document as this , you must hearken to your master , which is some precedent instruction , and though he be a blind or a lame child , or both , he that puts him to school gives him some item who is his master , and to what end he is brought to him ( whereof none is done to an infant ) and though these be not the documents which he comes to school to learn , yet they are documents which he is taught afore he comes to school . the dr. adds . ly . it is as true , that children that are brought to school do not alwayes know their masters before their entrance , no not by the most superficial knowledge ; many are brought to publike schools , who never so much as saw their masters till they are by their parents delivered up into their power and discipline ; if this bee not plain enough , then change the similitude from the schoolmaster to the parent or guardian , or the very nurse , every one of these are to feed , and nourish , and as he shall be capable , to instruct the child , and so doth christ in a spiritual sense , whosoever is intrusted ( by being brought ) to him in baptism . and we know god and nature doth thus bring a child to the parent , to the nurse or guardian , when the child knowes none of these , nor understands any more of all these transaction , then the infant doth at the font conceive what is done to it there . and so still this evidenceth the vanity of this answer concerning the childs knowing his teacher . answ. it doth indeed evidence the vanity of this drs. answer , who being to shew how the words of christ matth. . . do not exclude infants from baptism , sith they are first to be made disciples , afore they are to be baptized whom he appoints to be baptized , having first turned the pr●cept of making disci●les , in●o receiving of persons to be discipled , and making them disciples by preaching the gospel to them , into preaching it to others who may bring them to school , and being urged with this that none are brought to school till he know his teacher , hath no better shift then here he useth to avoid it . for hee it that some are brought to school that have not a superficial knowledge of their master , as having never seen him , yet they are not brough● till they be told they are to go to a mast●r , nor entred into the school ( which was the drs. notion of making disciples , matth. . . ) till he have some knowledge who is to be his teacher . as for his other shift by changing the similitude , it is worse , for thereby he quits the cause , the precept being not matth. . . set to nurse , but make disciples , and therefore though it be true , that a father , guardian or nurse , are to receive a child that knows none of them , and are to feed , nou●ish and instruct it as it is c●pable , and it is a good office to bring an infant to such persons to such ends , yet is it neither agreeable to use nor reason , but rather the part of a frantique man out of his wi●s , to bring an infant to be admitted into a school to be taught or matriculated in the university , nor doth christ appoint such to be admitted as disciples to him ; nor is it true which this dr. saith , that christ doth in a spiritual sense feed , nourish and instruct whosoever is intrusted ( by being brought ) to him in baptism ; nor do i think but that the infant knowes more the nur●e , and the bringing of it to that end , then the infant doth at the font conceive what is done to it there . so that hitherto the dr. hath not avoided this objection , that though i● were granted him ( which yet is not true ) that making disciples , matth. . ● . is no more then receive to discipleship or to school , yet infants are excluded , who are by none received to d●scipleship , or entred into schools . but the dr. hath one more li●t at this block which thus lies in his way . but then , saith he , dly . this so imperfect superficial knowledge of the teacher , is in no wise worth considering in this matter ; for i shall demand , doth such very imperfect knowledge of christ , as a school boy hath of his teacher , the first hour ●e comes into the school , qu●lifie him for discipleship to ●hrist or no ? if it do , then his country-men and kinsmen , before he revealed himself ●o be the messiah and the pharisees , which believed not his mirac●es were sufficiently qualified , and then 't is evident that those might be admitted to discipleship , which were not believers , and so all mr t. his hypotheses are destroyed , and then infants may be disciple● and baptized though they be not believers . answ. this is very doctor-like arguing , to put a question and then make the answer absurd if it be affirmative , but shew no absurdity in it , if it be made negatively , as indeed it is . which i shoul● not have mentioned , but that he twits me ( though unjustly ) in the beginning of the next section , with setting down a first reason without a second . i answer then to his question negatively , and yet such imperfect superficial knowledge of a teacher , is worth considering in this matter , to shew that no infant who hath not so much knowledge of christ as such a school boy of his master , is to bee termed chr●sts disciple or admitted to discipleship . and yet if i had answered affirmatively , i think none of my hypotheses had been destroyed ; for such imperfect knowledge of the ma●●er might be with faith in him , as able to teach him and willing to do him good , and so a christian who hath b●t such imperfect knowledge of christ as a school●boy of his master the first hour he comes to school , may be a believer , and know him to be the messiah afore he bee baptized , and not , as his kinsmen , country men , or pharisees , an unbeliever . yet the dr. tels us , as for that which he here interposes [ the knowing jesus to be christ , and taking him for his lord ] this bears no ●roportion with the childs bare knowing of his master , but is far above it , equal to his making it his own choise to have this master , rather then any other , and promising exact obedience to him , which is much more then is to hee found in most young schollers ▪ or indeed in any that are brought by their parents or guardians , who alone are the persons who bear proportion with the infants brought by others to baptism . answ. ●his might have been omitted , but that the dr. was willing to write something though it be i●pertinent , sith it opposeth not me ; who said not that the knowing jesus to be christ and taking him for his lord , bears any even proportion with the childs bare knowing his master , but onely said as none is put to school till he doth know his teacher , so none in scripture language is christs disciple till hee know christ , not just so imperfectly as a school-boy . and yet i think there are some young schollers brought by parents or guardians , who make choise themselves of their master , and promise exact obedience to him . the dr. concludes this section thus . so that this reasoning of his , is soon salved by distinguishing of disciples , that they are either such as come , or such as are brought to school , proselytes of their own choise , or children under the care of others ; of the former sort there are none but such as have some rude imperfect knowledge of christ , upon which they make this choise , and without it would not probably be expected to make it ; but for children which as minors in their guardians hands , have no will of their own , there is no necessity they should have knowledge to move their will , they may very reasonably bee acted by the will of others , and by their charity bee made partakers of those priviledges which are communicated from christ in his church to all true members thereof , and to that end be discipled and baptized , entred by this ceremony into the church of god , where instruction is to be had as soon as they are capable of it , and in the mean while partake of those other advantages , of which their condition is capable . answ. when the dr. hath proved out of scripture , that there is any such sort of disciples of christ as he here describes , who come not but are brought to school by others , i shall acknowledge he hath sa●ved my reasoning ; till then i take this for vain babling , and conceive it little better then to speak of a disciple who hath no will of his own , nor knowledge to move it then to speak of a man that is irrational , and to say they may very reasonably be acted by the will of others , who are not so by their own , is in my apprehension all one as to say , they may very reasonably be acted , who are acted as bruits . the instance of philip , joh. . . servs not the drs. turn , for though he were called and received into discipleship as soon as ever christ met with him , yet not afore christ spake to him , and ●id him follow him , which implies some instruction by him , and therefore it is false that the dr. saith , he was received into discipleship before he was at all instructed by christ , nor doth that of the jews exod. . . who did then answer as disciples , but as servants , or persons that covenanted . but the dr. hath yet one more string to his bowe , though the rest be crackt . lastly , saith he , i concluded that the making or receiving disciples , supposeth not any precedent instruction by the nature of proselytism , which as it is all one with entring into gods covenant , and ( in the christian sense ) with coming to christ and being received into discipleship , so 't is that which children are known to be capable of , not onely by that text deut. . ● . but by the custome of baptizing infant proselytes among the jews , and by christs command to suffer them to come unto him , whensoever they were thus brought . hereto i said , that it is not true , that a disciple and a proselyte are perfectly all one . for a proselyte notes one that is by birth an alien from the commonwealth of israel , and comes to israel to own their god , and bee part of their policy , not to bee taught , but to enjoy priviledges with other jews , whether civil or ecclesiastical . but a disciple of christ is one that owns christ for his teacher and lord , onely for spiritual benefits . but certainly , saith the dr. this is no reason of difference , for besides that i in that § . . acknowledged this accidental difference , that a proselyte denotes a comming from some other nation ( as a disciple doth not ) adding , that this diffe●ence had no place in this matter , where the disciples are specified to be received from all nations ; besides this , i say , it cannot be unknown to mr. t. that i speak of proselytes in such a notion as is equally competible to all of what nation soever they are , that enter into covenant with god. answ. who but he that writes at randome , would assert that a disciple and proselyte are perfectly all one , and yet acknowledge this accidental difference , that this is no reason of difference , and yet say , that a proselyte denotes a comming from some other nation ( as a disciple doth not ) that this is but an accidental difference , and yet in his own description make this very difference , and when he expresseth the hebrew word for proselyte , still terms him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a stranger , that this difference had no place in this matter , when his inference is from proselytes who were strangers to the jews , to prove disciples and proselytes the same , and to tell me i must know his use of a word , which hee neither shews that he or any else have so used . but the dr. adds . thus do we finde a proselyte defined , heb. . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that commeth to god , thus doth a jew when he enters into covenant of obedience to him , and thus did a gentile when he undertook the whole law of the jewes , and was therefore 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a proselyte of the covenant , and a proselyte of their righteousness , and such is every one whether jew or gentile that commeth to christ , and as the two former of these were made partakers of priviledges by this means , particularly allowed freely to enter into the congregation , and infants as well as grown men were thus among them admitted into covenant ; so it is not imaginable why it should not hold of the christian proselytes also , nor why the christian infants thus received into covenant by christ , after the same manner as jewish and gentile infants were among the ancient people of god. i. e. by baptism , should not as properly bee called proselytes of christ ▪ though they neither c●me from any other nation , nor ever associate themselves with israelites according to the flesh . answ. if the notion of a proselyte were according to heb. . . i should agree that a disciple of christ and a proselyte were the same ; for such a proselyte is one that is a believer , as the words shew ; but without faith it is impossible to please god ; for he that commeth to god must believe that he is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him . all such proselytes of christ i doubt not are admitted into covenant , to be b●ptized , to partake of priviledges in the christian church whether they be jewes or gentiles , according to that cor. . . and when infants are proved to be such , there will be no question about their baptism , though not by reason of the jewish custome , yet by vertue of christs institution to baptize disciples and believers on him . but that infants of christians are thus received into covenant by christ after the same manner as jewish and gentile infants were among the ancient people of god , i. e. by baptism , or that afore they believe they should be called proselytes of christ , or , that every one whether jew or gentile that commeth to christ , is as a gentile when hee undertook the whole law of the jewes , and was therefore a proselyte of their covenant and a proselyte of their righteousness , or that a christian believer is either termed in scripture a proselyte , or any jew is to be so termed properly is not to be imagined , all these things being the meer dreams of the dr. suitable to his fancy of infant baptism instituted among christians a●ter the jewish pattern . the dr. proceeds thus ; and whereas he saith of the proselytes comming to the israelites , that they came not to be taught but to enjoy priviledges , i cannot divine what motive he had to affirm it , for sure the infant child that was baptized , and so received into the congregation of israel did come to learn the jewish religion , into which he was thus early initiated , and that was one special priviledge ( the rest of the heathen having not knowledge of these lawes ) the immediate end of his proselytism , yet not excluding those other ends of injoying all other priviledges both civil and ecclesiastical thereby . answ. the infant had no end but such as the parent , who was indeed the proselyte , had , and the parents end was not to be taught , for hee was taught the jewish religion before , and at his baptism , the precepts of moses being recited to him while he stood in the water , by the elders at whose command he was baptized , and admitted into the jewish policy , afore which admission he was to undertake the observance of them , the proper and immediate end of his proselytism , was his injoying those priviledges which native jewes had as one of that body , which shews that the admission of a proselyte was not into a school to learn , and therefore the notion of proselytism not like the notion of receiving to discipleship , which the dr. fancies to be meant matth. . . and to be the same with admission to proselytism ; to shew the mistake of which was the motive why i set this difference between a proselyte and a disciple of christ , as the dr. might easily have di●ined , if hee had been minded to do so . the dr. saith of me , and when he adds , but a disciple of christ is one that owns christ for his teacher and lord , onely for spiritual benefits , i might as well acknowledge it , and ask why then an infant who hath need of those spiritual benefits , as soon as he is born should not be hastened to a participation of them . answ. i know no reason why hee should not , nor do i know any reason why he should be baptized , nor how by it an infant may be hastened to the participation of spiritual or other benefits , but know reason why an infant should not bee baptized , because baptism is thereby profaned , and the infant afterwards usually hardened through pernicione presumption , as if he were thereby made a christian. the dr. saith also . but it is farther evident , that spiritual benefits beeing first and principally designed , other even secular advantages , may very lawfully bee respected , and reaped by them that are thus early brought in , whether as disciples or proselytes to christ. answ. that by baptism infants are brought in as disciples or proselytes to christ , or attain any advantages spiritual or secular i know not , sure i am none are lawfully respected in the use of infant baptism , being wholly besides christs minde , and if the end of proselytism was ( as manifestly it was ) for far different purposes from that of a disciple of christ , the proselyte and disciple of christ are not perfectly one , which i was to demonstrate . yet again , saith the dr. two sage observations he here addeth ; that there is no mention of the disciples of the priests , but of the pharisees and sadduces , and i can verily well grant it , who speak not of any lower kinde of disciples , but either of god among the jewes , or of christ , among us christians , those being the onely discipleship , to which they were admitted by the ceremony of baptism , the disciples of the pharisees and sadduces being but a subdivision and notification of several sects among the jewes , as there are different denominations of christians ( the more the pity ) which divide unity , but use not new baptism to discriminate them , i am sure contradict the apostle if they do . answ. how sage the drs. observations of making disciples as all one with receiving to discipleship , of baptizing after the jewish pattern , &c. are is seen before . this observation is not denied by the dr. nor any thing said by him to evacuate the use i intended to make of it , to shew that to be a disciple , doth not no●e the comming to god to enjoy benefits , as the dr. made the notion of a proselyte to import , for then persons should be termed disciples of the priests , which is not so , but to learn , and so the disciples of pharisees were those who learned their opinions . that which the dr. saith is not true , that by baptism persons were admitted to discipleship , nor that disciples of the pharisees and sadduces were but a subdivision under disciples of god or christ , for their disciples were no disciples of god or christ , nor pertinent to the avoiding the use of my observation . 't is true there are different denominations of christians ( the more the pity ) which divide unity , and of them i know none so great as that of the prelatists , who will neither hear the preacher who preacheth the faith of christ , nor joyn in prayer unless the common prayer book be used , nor own them as presbyters who were not ordained by a bishop distinct from a presbyter , nor joyn with that society as a church lawfully constituted where there is not episcopal government , which i take to be a manifestly unjust schism and recusancy . i know none that use new baptism , but paedobaptists , who therein contradict christs institution and the apostles practise . pistobaptists or baptizers of believers of age , upon their profession of faith , use the old baptism which christ appointed and the apostles practised , not to discriminate them from others , but to do their duty , and to supply a defect in infant sprinkling . the dr. saith , his second observation is , that the holy ghost doth not at any time call christians christs proselytes , but his disciples , that , saith he , we might not confound the notions of these termes . but i answer , . that those texts that express the christians entring into discipleship , by comming unto him ( of which there are good store ) do in effect call them proselytes , for a proselyte is a greek noun , derived immediately from the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to come unto . answ. . i think this not true , sith the texts which express the comming to christ , do mean by it believing in him , as joh. . . shews , but that is not in effect to call them proselytes in the drs. sense , nor is the notion of a commer unto and a disciple all one , sith a person may come to a person , yea to learn , and never yet be his disciple . and secondly , saith the dr. that if this word whether in it self , or in the verb from whence it ●omes , had never been used in the n. t. yet would it not thence follow , that we might not confound the notions of proselytes and disciples . ans. nor do i make it any demonstrative argument but probable , as it is probable , that the holy ghost calls not the christian society the synagogue , nor the preachers of the gospel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 priests , that we may not confound them . i have often given a firm reason , why infants capable of coming to christ , blessed by him , and affirmed to be qualified for the kingdom of heaven , should be denied water to be baptized , even this , that neither christ appointed it , nor the apostles baptized them , though he did the other to them . the christian church or minister might not deny baptism to infants , if they were qualified as cornelius and the gentiles that came with him were acts . , . & . . what i said of infants being unqualified for baptism , till by hearing they own christ as their master , is fully proved in the ●d . part of this review , sect . , &c. and it is therefore too too boldly said by the dr. that it is a begging of the question without the least tender of proof . whether or in what manner the little ones mentioned deut. . . did enter into covenant , is so fully discussed before sect. , , , , . chiefly this last , that i need here add no more . either in one of those sections or some where before in this part of the review , i have proved from the text and commentators , that those that were not with them that day , v. . were unborn , chiefly in that v. . moses called unto all israel , and they are said v. . all to stand there that day , and therefore i might more justly wonder ( though it be no wonder that the dr. thus abuseth me ) that hee should have the face to say , i impose on the reader . he tels me , there is no mention of any act of the fathers engaging them under a curse or oath , but onely of gods oath which he maketh to them , v. . but he might have seen v. . these words , neither do i make with you onely this covenant and this oath , but with him also that is not here with us th●● day , which i know not how it should be meant of any other then the unborn , for none but they of israel were then absent , and entering into an oath and curse as they did nehem. . . and for what hee adds , if they had thus adjured or laid oath or curse upon their children , yet would this make no difference betwixt their and our entring into covenant , we by the oath of baptism which i● laid on the child ( by him to be performed when he comes to ability , unless he will forfeit all the benefits of his baptism ) do in like manner adjure our infants , though while they remain such , they hear it as little as the jewish infants did . but sure there is a great difference between the solemn adjuration of moses and all israel binding their posterity and recorded in the book of the law , and the obscure charge of an ignorant officiating priest to three gossips , whereof some are so ignorant , that they know not what the christian faith is at a font , which hee terms the oath of baptism , which is seldome either heeded or remembred by any present . and whereas he saith , my rejecting his inference , that by parity of reason infants may be entred into discipleship and baptized , to be a denying the conclusion when the premises cannot be denied ; it is not true , for the consequence is plainly denied , and the reason is given of that denial , and each branch proved in the book before sect . , &c. and therefore i shall say no more to this section , it being pity ( to use the drs. words ) to lose time on such trifling conceits empty of all proof , as this dr. hath dictated for infant baptism . he said better pract. cat . l. . § . . the apostles powers were to preach and baptize those that received their doctrine . sect . xcviii . the testimonies of cyprian , augustin , and other latin fathers for infant baptism , are shewed to have come from their mistakes ; and the evidences why the antiquity of infant baptism should not be deemed such as is pretended , are vindicated . i now return to the examination of the testimonies brought out of the rest of the latin fathers besides tertullian for infant baptism , whereof cyprian was the chief , and his testimony is thus urged by dr. hammond defence of infant baptism , chap. . sect . . p. . in the midst of this third age , an. chr. . was s. cyprian made bp. of carthage , and ten years after he suffered martyrdome , i. e. years after the age of the apostles . in the year he sate in councel with bishops ( see justellus in his preface to the african canons p. . ) and their decrees by way of synodical epistle are to be seen in his ep. . ad fidum fratrem , which is now among his works , ●amel . edit . p. . the councel was in answer to some questions about baptism , and accordingly he there sets down his own opinion , together with the decrees of that councel of bishops which were assembled with him ; and so this , as it is an ancient , so it is more then a single testimony , that of a whole councel added to it ; and yet farther to encrease the authority of it , 〈◊〉 cites this epistle more then once , and sets it down almost entire 〈◊〉 a testimony of great weight against hereticks ; and so 't is ●●ed by s. hierom also , l. . dial . cont . pelag. in this epistle the question being proposed by fidus , whether infants might be baptized the second or third day , or whether as in circumcision the eighth day were not to be expected , he answers in the name of the councel , universi judicavimus , 't was the resolution or sentence of all , nulli hominum nato misericordiam dei & gratiam denigandam , that the mercy and grace of god was not to be denied to any human birth , to any child , though never so young ( by that phrase [ mercy and grace of god ] evidently meaning baptism , the right of conveying them to the baptized ) adding , that 't is not to be thought that this grace which is given to the baptized , is given to them in a greater or less degree in respect of the age of the receivers ; and that god as he accepts not the person , so nor the age of any , confirming this by the words of s. peter act. . that none was to be called common or unclean , and that if any were to be kep● from baptism , it should rather be those of full age , who have committed the greater sins , and that seeing men when they come to the faith are not prohibited baptism , how much more ought not the infant to be forbidden , who being new born , hath no sin upon him , but that which by his birth from adam he hath contracted as soon as he was born , who therefore should more easily bee admitted to pardon , because they are not his own but others sins which are then remitted to him , concluding that as none were by the decree of that councel to be refused baptism , so this was the rather to be observed , and retained about infants and new-born children . thus much and more was the sentence of that ancient father , and that councel , and as the occasion of that determination was not any antipaedobaptist doctrine ( there had no such then so much as lookt into the church , that we can hear of ) but a conceit of one , that it should be deferr'd to the eigth day , which was as much infancy as the first ( and so both parties were e●ually contrary to the anti●aedobaptists interests , the condemned , as well as the judges ) so that it is no new doctrine that was then decreed , or peculiar to s. cyprian ( who had one singular opinion in the matter of baptism ) appears also by the concurrence of the whole councel that convened with him , and by the express words of st. august . ep. . ad hieronym . blessed cyprian not making any new decree , but keeping the faith of the church most firm , decreed with a set number of his fellow bishops , that a child new born might fitly be baptized . which shews it the resolution of that father also , that baptizing of infants was the faith of the church before cyprians time , not onely the opinion , but the ●aith , which gives it the authority of christ and his apostles . answ. i have been willing to set down these words at large sith none urgeth this authority more fully , though mr. m. dr. h. mr. b , &c. do all alledge it , and it is the chiefest of all the testimonies augustin produced for infant baptism , and therefore was translated by me into english , and printed at the end of my praecursor . concerning which act , mr. b. praefest . mor. p. . saith thus , it seems to me god ordered mr. t. to translate cyprians epistle to the disgrace of his cause with the vulgar themselves . for none can be so blinde as not to see in it the antiquity of infant baptism , which is all that we urge it for . but if the cause i maintain be disgraced by translating that epistle , i shall take it as a sign that a spirit of dotage is faln on men , so as to be enamouted on the blemishes of the ancient : sure me thinks none of the vulgar , much less the learned , should be so blinde as not to discern , that infant baptism was an errour , which was maintained by the prime assertors , upon such vain reasons as are in that epistle , which are not excused by what mr. b. saith , that the arguments are onely for confutation of the objection concerning infants uncleanness before the eighth day , and not to give the grounds that warranted infant baptism ; for the truth is , both are done together , and the best grounds they had for it are set down by them , which will appear to be so frivolous by examination of them , that notwithstanding all the credit dr. hammond endeavours to gain to it , yet men of mean understandings , i doubt not , will by reading of it discern how ill that councel did in that determination . nor doth it any whit be●ter the matter to say , that it was not cyprian alone , but also a whole councel of bishops which did thus agree with him . for in like manner did the same cyprian , with a more famous councel [ see epist. to jubaia . ponep . quir. janu. steph. ] at the same place , determine the rebaptizing of the baptized by hereticks , with better shew of scripture and reason then in his epistle to fidus , and alledged apostolical authority as much as in this , and yet he is deserted therein not onely by the bishops of rome that were then , but also by augustin , and the african , and other churches . besides his maintaining the perfusion of the clinici , in his epistle to magnus l. . epist. . his maintaining the necessity of water with the wine in the lords supper , as the lords tradition , l. . epist. . ad caecilium , with other things , do sufficiently discover the weakness of cyprian , and the bishops of those times in their determinations , and the slightiness of their reasons , which no intelligent divine should now urge , and therefore me thinks should not adhere to their practise or tenents , grounded on such frivolous reasons . nor in this matter is augustins or hieroms authority such , as that we should relye upon their approbations and speeches , their corruptions in this point , and in other points shewing their mistakes both in matters of doctrine , and fact , some whereof are before noted section . and more will bee in that which followes . as for what mr. b. saith , that the antiquity of infant baptisme is all that he with others urge cyprian for , i reply , he and others need not to have done that , sith i acknowledge it to have been as ancient as cyprian , not as it is now ; but . in the practise , used onely in case of imagined necessity , to save an infant in apparent danger of imminent death from perishing , as the words of tertullian de bapt . c. . and greg. nazianz. orat . . de sanct . bapt . and sundry relations shew to have been the practise . now in this if pro●estant divines have rejected antiquity , and deny such infant baptism as they practised , determining that there is not such a necessity of baptizing infants for that reason , nor that they are to be baptized with private baptism upon such a fear , and accordingly declining it as superstitious , they thereby justifie us from their crimination of innovation in deserting the fathers , when they themselves do it in the same thing as well as we . and if mr. baxter ( as hee doth plain script . proof . l. . c. . p. . ) except against tertullians reasons as poor , and therefore reject his advice , why should not we reject cyprians and his collegues determination , which was built on as poor , if not poorer reasons then tertullians . . in the doctrines taught : for they taught , that by baptism the grace and mercy of god was given , that without baptism infants must perish , that every one that is born of mankind is to be baptized , in which mr. baxter and other protestants do dissert them : now if they disclaim their doctrine in that which led them to their infant baptism , we have no reason to be bound to their authority . nor is the doctrine the least matter to be considered , or the reasons of their determination impertinent to a right judgement of their practise . for as in other controversies between us and papists , as about menkish profession , lent fast , prayer for the dead , &c. the main thing considered , is , how far the ancients practised these , and upon what grounds , as may be seen in ushers answer to the jesuites challenge , and other learned protestants writings , so it is in this : by whieh we may discern , that the fathers practise of infant baptism was upon the same grounds with those of the papists , which we reject ; and therefore the fathers testimonies do indeed disgrace the cause of infant baptism , and plainly shew upon what erroneous opinions it came in ; and if prejudice did not dazle their eys , learned and godly protestants would rather suspect and judge infant baptism a corruption , then alledge their determination for their justification . and for what is alledged , that august . ep. . ad hierony . said , that cyprian did not make any new decree , but kept the faith of the church most firm , it is manifest , that the faith augustine means was that infants had original sin , and without baptism must perish , which in like manner he taught about the lords supper ( which was given to infants in cyprians time , as his sermon de lapsis shews ) l. . de pecc . merit . & remis . c. . l. . adv . julian . c. . contra epist. pelag. l. . c ▪ . now as we and the romanists have rejected infant communion , though as ancient as infant baptism , or very near as ancient , so should infant baptism be rejected as upon the like mistake brought into the church . the like might be said of the exorcising , or exuffiation , that is , blowing away or puffing out the devil , of which augustine speaks so much as used with baptism to infants , the anointing with oyl , giving milk and honey , cloathing with white garments mentioned by tertullian as common in his time before cyprian , which yet are left by us notwithstanding he make them in his l. . against marcion , lib. de corona militis , apostolical traditions . out of which and many more instances this may bee collected , that the fathers testimony of the use of their time , or of apostolical traditions , is not to be received without examining their reasons , to which in this thing how little credit or heed is to be given , will appear by the exceptions i have made in my examen , and shall now vindicate from what mr. ms. friend , and dr. homes say to them . the first was , that in tertullians time infant baptism was not defined , sith he disswades it , de bapt. c. . scult . med . patr . part . l. . c. . tertullianus l ▪ de bapt. ●os duntaxat baptizandos censet , qui christum nosse potuerunt . the answers are , . that he was for infant baptism , as appears by his book de anima , c. . but this is refelled before . . that he mentions it as then in use . ref. it is true , but not allowed . . that he allowed it in case of necessity . ref. this is against those that deny the use of it for that reason in that case . . that he disswaded onely the baptism of infants of infidels , sith they onely were in need of sureties , and likely to sail in answering the engagement for them . ref. this is not likely . . it●s not likely such were brought in the times of persecution , nor that there were any christians who would become sureties for them . . it was usual then , as the custome hath been since , to have sureties at baptism of infan●s of believers , and also at the baptism of the aged , as is gathered out of tertul. de corona militis , inde suscepti , which is spoken of the ●ged . . the words of tertullian shew he argued a●ainst the baptism of any little ones in respect of their age . . his reasons ( be they what they will ) ●re agai●st the baptism of any little ones , wi●h express direction for them to come not till they were of age to understand ▪ venient ergo dum adol●scunt , veniant dum discunt , dum quo veniant docentur , fi●nt christiani , cum christum nosse pot●erint . that is , let them come t●erefore when they be grown up , let them come when they learn , when they are taught wherefore they come , let them he made christians when they shall be able to know christ. which makes it certain he meant this even of believers infants , whom he presumed would be taught to know christ , and that an●i●adobaptist doctrine had then lookt into the church , though dr. hammond say otherwise . ●he ●d . exception was , ●ugustines and hieroms relying on this councel , shewed their darkness . answ. mr. m. p. . of his defence ▪ though augustine approved cyprians judgement , yet he relied not u●on his reasons to make good infant baptism ; this to him is no new doctrine , he had another eye upon the constant and sure faith of the church , which in that point be followed faithfully . ref. it appears by the words of augustine , ep . . ad hieron●m . where he alledgeth this very thing for infant baptism [ that cyprian said not that the flesh ▪ but the soul unbaptized should be lost ] that he relied on his rea●ons ; and the like is apparent , where he and hierome set down his words , and argue from them ▪ tom . . l. . de pecc . mer. & remis . c contra julian . l. . c. where augustine hath these words , sed cyprianus dicit peri●e parvulum nisi fuerit baptiza●us , quam vis ei non propria demittantur , sed ●liena pec●ata . but cyprian saith , a little one perisheth unless he be baptized , although not his own but anothers sins are forgiven him . my d. excep●ion was , that fidus started the question out of a judaizing conceit , that the law of circumcision which was not to be till the ●th day , was to be considered , and that the footstep of an infant being in the first days of his birth is not clean ; which shew a relique of judaism in him . to this it is said , . that cyprian did not concur with him , nor the councel . refut . . however it appears that the baptism of infants was then practised upon the superstitious conceit as if we were to do in baptism as the jews did in circumcision . . nor doth cyprian appear by hi● ep. . l. . and elsewhere to be free from thinking the ceremonial law to direct us about baptism . . that other learned men , as athanasius , nazianz. august . chrysostome , reasoned from circumcision to baptism . refut . no doubt of it , for as in the controversie about easter , so in other things they appeared too much to imitate the jewish ceremonies , by which the simplicity of the christian service was altered . my th . exception was , that the resolution of this counc●l was the spring-head of infant baptism . answ. before that time baptism of infants was in use . refut . yet it was not determined before , but disswaded , nor was any authority of any councel which was as a spring head to it , whence it continued a stream afore that , nor doth augustine in his allegati●ns for it , find any higher spring of it then cyprian and his councel ▪ my th ▪ and chief exception was , t●at the councel determined the baptizing of infants upon these errours , which are now rejected by protestants as popish ; . that they thought baptizing giving gods grace , and the denying it denying gods grace ; . they thought the souls to be lost , which were not baptized ; . that therefore not onely infants of believers , but all infants were to be baptized . mr. m. acknowledgeth the two first to be rightly gathered from the words of the epistle , but that he also urged that baptism comes in stead of circumcision , and if some arguments were used by the ancients which were not good , the truth is not to be rejected , when some o●her are . ref. . the council determined infant baptism on no other argument . . if infant baptism could be proved by other arguments , i should yeeld to it ; however the credit and authority of this councel is taken away by reason of the falshood of the grounds of their determination . ly . for the d. inference , though he lays it down in general terms , that none are to be hindered from comming to christ : yet what he saith ought to be understood of the church , because he speaks of such as god hath cleansed or purified who were common . ref. . the words are as express as may be , we all judged that the mercy and grace of god is to be denied , ( by not baptizing them ) nulli hominum nato , to none born of men , as much as in us lies , if it may be , nulla anima pe●denda est , no soul is to be lost for want of baptism . . the very words mr. m alledgeth for a restriction to the church are against it , they are thus . sed putamus omnem omnino hominem admittendum ad gratiam christi , cum & petrus in actibus apostolorum loquatur & dicat : dominus mihi dixit neminem communem dicendum & immundum . but we think every man altogether should be admitted to the grace of christ , when peter also in the acts of the apostles speaks and saith , the lord hath said to me that no man should be termed common and unclean : which is meant of all men , not onely of the church . and this enough to answer dr. homes , who in his animadversions , p. . finds not that passage in cyprian , which i alledge , and p. . saith , cyprian doth not say , infants perish if they be not baptized , though augustine expresly saith the contrary , and p. ● . takes on him to defend the sayings of that councel , as having no errour or hurt to say that baptism gives grace instrumentally , and that without warrant wittingly to deny baptism is to deny gods grace . but protestant write●s generally ( as austin before ) judge the words to have a further sense , and the words of the epistle plainly shew that they held by the very baptism infants had remission of sin and were saved , and without it were lost , and to deny them baptism was to deny them gods grace . that which he saith of me , ● , . that i would not have it , that cyprian doth at all put in original sin among his arguments for baptizing of infants , is not true ; i onely denyed that he put it in , in the manner mr. m. conceived . what i said of the absurdity and nakedness of that epistle , hath no more immodesty then is common to writers protestant and papists , who charge fathers and ancient councels with errours , blemishes , and of● times with harder censures ; if i had given that epistle a ●arter censu●e i had done right , that i spake was soft enough , considering the great hurt which hath come to the church of god by that epistle , which determined childrens baptism by childish reasons . next to cyprian of the latine fathers , are recited ambrose and hierome ▪ and paulinus by dr. hammond , whose words with augustines , and such councels as were in their times in the th . and th . century , i shall forbear to reci●e , it being acknowledged that in those ages it was practised , and by reason of augustines esteem baptism of infants was practised in following ages almost without controul ; and in process of time , that which was before augustines dayes a rarity , became so frequent , as that it almost swallowed up the right bap●ism , which appears from the words of walafridus strabo , placed by usher at the year . in his book de rebus ecclesiasticis , c. . who is termed by mr. george gillespie in his aarons rod blossoming , p. . a diligent searcher of the ancients which were before him , and of the old ecclesiastical rites , which with other observations tending to reduce the testimony of augustine to its just weight , are set down in my examen , par . . sect . . and are now to be vindicated by me from what mr. marshal and others reply . dr. homes , p. ● . excepts against what i said , that it was augustines authority that carried infants baptism in the following ages almost without control ; and . he asks , what carried it . or . years before ? for all that time it was frequent . ] but this is not true , n●r ever proved by dr. homes . chamier , paustr. cath . tom . . l. . c. . § . . saith truly , who seeth not that the custome of the scrutiny of the baptised was in that time , when scarce the thousandth person was baptised afore he came to age , and was diligently exercised in catechism . dr. hammond in his pract . catech. l. ● . § . . p. . all men were instructed in the fundamentals of faith anciently before they were permitted to be baptised . . ●hey that were carried by augustine , were not carried by the authority of the man , but by the scriptures and reasons he urged . which i grant ; but those scriptures and reasons had never carried infant baptism , if the name of the man had not been more prevalent then his reasons . . it cannot be said that augustines authority did in his time carry infant baptism in a manner without control , seeing he had so much bickering with the pelagians about it , who under some notion did con-against it , as we shewed before . ] but by his leave it might be so said , and that truly , ●ith in the bickerings against the pelagians , augustines authority grew ; yea , hierome in the end of his d. dialogue against pelagians , in the words cited by dr. home● . p. . doth himself refer the reader to augustines works about baptizing infants , as the chief prop of that custome . however , that which i said is manifestly true , that after his time , in the following ages , augustines authority carried the baptism of infants almost without control . dr. homes further excepts against my alledging walafridus strabo , and saith , . strabo is against me , . in saying in the first times , baptism was wont to be confirmed by imposition of hands . but the dr. wrongs me i● saying i deny it exercit. sect . . who onely say it was a part or appendix of baptism , as chamier said paustr. cath . tom . . l. . c. . sect &c. not as among the papists or prelatists used many years after baptism . but of this enough is said review part . . sect . . . about athanasius , that in athanasius his time , to his knowledge there was baptism of little children . but how is this against mee , who doubted not concerning athanasius his fact of imitating baptizing when he was a boy , and of alexander his approb●tion of it , but said i marvailed i found nothing produced out o● athanasius works for infant baptism , if it were so manifest as mr. m. said . now this was not in athanasius his works , and the story doth not at all prove infant baptism either in use or approved then , but rather the contrary . for that fact was done by athanasius at play , among boyes at play , and it was approved as baptism , because the baptizer and the baptized used the ordinary actions done at baptism of the aged : which shews that baptism was then used to and by persons of age , though imitated by boyes at play . . about infant baptism , for which strabo quotes many ▪ authorities and antiquities , as of the concilium gerundense ; but this is not against me , who deny not , but acknowledge many councils for it , after and in augustins time , but know of none but that of carthage in cyprians epistle to fidus afore , and do judg those councils weigh no more then one augustin , whose authority they relied on , and some of them used his very words in their canons . . that strabo faulters , and is much faulty in the thing he is quoted for . for first , he calls the times of augustine , who is but of late in comparison of many ancients we have quoted prima tempora , that is , the first times , for walafridus quotes augustines practise , that was not baptized till of ripe years , to prove , that in the first times ( as walafridus calls them ) men were not baptized till able to know well , and make profession ; when as augustin himself , as we have shewed , and mr. t. hath confessed , did refer himself to ancienter times a great deal , as to cyprian that was almost yeares afore him , for the practise of baptizing infants . . walafrid saith , illis solummodo , &c. that is , to them onely the grace of baptism was wont to bee given , who were of integrity or ripeness of body and minde , &c. but gives not proofs or reasons , but onely one single instance of augustine himself for an universal proposition . answ. it appears not that strabo faultered in either of these . he cals the times unto augustine , not onely augustines times , prima t●mpora , the first times ; and though he knew that cyprian was alledged by augustine for proof of infant baptism , yet strabo might rightly say ( not as dr. homes makes him , men were not baptized ( but ) the grace of baptism was wont to be given to them onely who might know well and make profession . and for this having set down the ancient custome , he alledgeth the instance of augustin , not because there were no more , but at that time the thing being well known , and augustines authority being the chief meanes of making infant baptism so frequent as it was after his time , it was enough for his purpose to instance in augustines own example , as sufficient to shew how the state of things was before . nor is it likely that walafridus strabo faultered in the third thing the dr. objects , but that ( not he , but ) some of the writers of his book mistook , and put xxv . for xxxv . and for the th . thing that hee confesseth , that religious wise men did baptize infants more frequently after augustines time , upon the apprehension of danger if they neglected it , it confirms my observation , that infant baptism grew to be so frequent as it was by augustines authority , but doth not at all prejudice my allegation of strabo , for though he being corrupted with the superstition of the age in which he lived , did judge well of the practise of infant baptism , yet his relation of the ancient use is usefull for me to shew , that it was but an innovation nor did my mention of his relation of the use of gossips , and the imagined spiritual kinred contracted by it , either blemish walafridus or break my shins , but served my turn to shew what superstition crept in by infant baptism , as arising from the want of the primitive use of the baptized persons own engagement at baptism , which being not done by infants , was supplied by this vain invention of men , and did ( as generally such inventions do ) occasion that evil opinion of the spiritual kinred contracted , which superstition turned to a conceit of inc●st between gossips . this opinion , though it did not necessarily follow on that us● ( for there might be gossips without such opinion , as there might be transubstantiation without adoration ) yet as the nature of superstition is to adde one humane invention to another , and the la●ter worse then the former , and the just judgement of god leaves men to err , when their fear of him is taught by the precepts of men , isa. . , . ( as i have shewed in my sermon intituled , the leven of pharisaical will●worship ) so it happened both in baptism and the eucharist , infant baptism brought in gossips , they were taken for parents , thence conceived to be of such affinity , that their copulation would be incestuous , and so in the eucharist the opinion of the lords supper , as if christs body were in the bread , begat transubstan●iation , that kneeling and adoration , which have more connexion then a rope of sand or pebles in a wyth , notwithstanding dr. homes his conceit , and stra●o's words need better answer then he gives . all that dr. homes p. , , , , . saith against my allegation of cluniacensis , doth not either prove , that peter de bruis did not deny infant baptism , or that cluniacensis did not alledge augustine for it , and de bruis rejected it , and appealed to the scriptures ( though i have acknowledged in my apology sect . . my mistake about the words of the ignorance of greek , and the mention of the greek church and the council of arles . ) for why should cluniacensis say , ecce non de augustino sed de evangelio protuli cui cum maxime vos credere dicatis , &c. but that augustine was wont to be urged against them , but they rejected him and appealed to the gospel . as for peter de bruis and henricus , their opinions i set them down as i found them reckoned in the argument of cluniacensis epistle , not thinking fit to set down all that cluniacensis chargeth them wi●h , having by mr. gatakers defence of mr. wotto● against mr. walker concerning abailardus , learnt how uncertain bernards charge was against him ; and the like perhaps against peter de ●ruis and henricus by cluniacensis in some things : yet i have given reasons concerning their denying infant baptism , in my praecursor sect . . to which mr. baxter hath no made reply in his praefestin . mor. to avoid them , though he had most unchristianly accused me of impudence and unconscionableness , for alledging them as adve●saries to infant baptism . what i said of the councils that condemned palagiani●m , and the drs. who refuted it , that they followed augustin , i did in some mistake , as in putting arles for orange a city near , and perhaps in something else , being at that time without all my ptinted books , which i had read before the year . in which i was plundered of them , and wrote my examen in london anno . and my exorcitation anno . but i had some remembrance of my reading to that purpose , which i imagin was by rea●ing the words of dr. ●rideaux in his d. lecture de gratia universali , which are thus to the same effect . augustinus ( qui praecipuè sudabit in hoc argumento , quomq●e prosper , fulgentius , & scholastici saniores sequuntur , imò ex ejus scriptis decreta concilii aransicani contra pelagianos & semipelagianos ( ut ipse agnoscit binnius ) cont●xuntur ) sit vice omnium . and for augustins being counted one of the four doctors of the church , esteemed like the four evangelists , the speech ( as i remember of gregory the great ) is so rife , that i presume it unknown to few students in divinity nevertheless i said , i for my part value augustines judgement just at so much as his proofs and reasons weigh ; of which dr. homes saith , that 's well ; but mr. marshal saith , i slight him , which is an unjust crimination of me , neither augustin nor any other writer , being not imediately inspired , requiring or deserving any higher regard ; and protestant writers frequently in their determinations ascribe authentique authority onely to the holy scripture , ames bellarm. enerv . tom . l. . c. . asser●tur ● nobis episcoporum in concilio sententiam tant●m inquisitionem quandam esse , & dictionem sententiae ministratoriam & limitatam ita ut tant●m valeat decretum concilii , quantùm valeat ejus ratio ; which if right , my speech is unblameable . nor am i to be blamed for not canvassing every particular testimony alledged out of augustine , it being not denied he held infant baptism at that time , and in such a manner as protestants reject , and how much credit is to bee given to his speeches of apostolical tradition , is considered before section . protestant writers do often charge augustin with doting , in this point of infant baptisms necessity ( whereof some speeches may be seen in mr. gataker de bapt . infant . vi & eff●c . sect . . num . . sect . ● . num . . ) and for my part i must say , that i judge his reasons so light and his proofs so vain , that the testimonies out of augustine do very much confirm me , that infant baptism is an errour , and a very pernicious abuse needfull to be taken away out of the church of god , the reason of which may in some measure appear by my vindication of my exceptions against augustines judgement . . if infant baptism had been such an universal and apostolical tradition as augustine would have it , then the church would have thought it necessary , that all children of christians by profession should bee baptized in their infancy , and the custome would have been so used ; but that it was not so , appears first from the baptism of augustine , adeodatus , alipius ; second , from other observations set down in my examen . p. . the testimonies mr. m. brings for universal practise , have been considered before . hee adds p. . of his defence , that epiphanius in the end of his work , relating what was generally observed in the church , tels us , the baptism administred in the church in his time , was performed according to the tradition of the gospel , and the authority of the apostles , as well as other mysteries then in use , and we know , that in his time baptism was administred to infants ; therefore in his judgement , what the church did therein , they had authority for it from the gospel and the apostles ; ] but there is more reason to conceive that either he knew no infant baptism , or that he took it to be an aberration from the gospel tradition and authority of the apostles , not onely in that he mentions not infant baptism , but also in ancorato where he sets down the use of baptism he saith , yee ought not onely to suffer every one instructed in the faith , and willing to come to the holy laver , that he shew himself to your sons that he believes in the lord , but also , that with uttered words , as the same mother of all your and our church hath received , he teach and say , i believe in one god the father almighty , &c. ] whence the magdeburgenses cent . . c. . de ritibus circa baptismum , say ; it is conjectured from these words , that in the churches of cyprus , the rite of confession was usual afore baptism ; where he also saith , that basil. exhort . ad bapt . writes , that no other then catechized persons were baptized , who were called together at easter ; although i deny not that there was sometimes infant baptism , yet by all the instances of the rite of baptism gathered by those historians in that place , it appears to have been very rare , and onely in the case of apparent peril of immanent death . and this is very probable to have been the reason why socrates hist. l. . . relating diversities of several churches about persons that had power to baptize , and the time in which baptism was commonly administred , and sozom. ▪ . several customes of several churches neither exclude nor mention infant ●aptism , because it was so rare a thing to baptize an infant , and done so obscurely that no instance is apparent of it in any history , in that or the fore●going ●ges . and dr. homes p. . wrongs me in saying , mr. t. himself chargeth augustin and cyprian , that they thought too many infants were to be baptized , namely all that had christian parents or undertakers , for these latter words are not mine , though i yeeld the former to be true . to my instance of augustins lat● baptism , it is said by mr. m. defence p. . one swallow makes not a spring peradventure some ( though born of christian parents ) were not in that age baptized in infancy ; yet that is no way prejudicial to the universal practise of the church in which paedobaptism was received . but by his leave it is a great evidence , and seemed so to strabo nearer to those times then we are , that infant baptism was not so univer●al as mr. m. makes it , when so ●minent a person of so eminently go●ly a mother , did not take care to have him baptized in infancy . but besides , wee have the words of optatus m●l●vitanus about the same ti●e , in his th . b●ok against ●armenian the donatist , thu● ; no man is ignorant that every man , who is born though he be born of christian parents , can be without the spirit of the world ; which it is necessary should be excluded and separated from the man before the saving baptism . this exorsim does , by which the unclean ●●irit is driven out , and made to flye into desert ●laces . the ●ouse is made empty in the breast of the believer ; the house is made clean : god enters and dwels as the ●postle saith , ye are the temple of god , and god dwel● in you . whence it is apparent , that even those who were born of christian parents were believers afore they were baptized , though i deny not that it was not the common doctrine , that infants should be baptized ; nor do i make that inference which mr m. intima●es i do , from that example of augustin , that children of christians by profession in that age were not baptized in their infancy , but that they were seldome so , nor except in case of appa●ent danger of imminent dea●h : which is manifest by the instance of augustin . mr. m. and dr. homes impute the delay of augustins ba●●ism , either to his fathers hindering , who was not then a christian , or to friends permission of him to have his own will , or to persecution . but all these are but mere shifts , his own words con●es . l . c. . declaring the true state of the thing , whic● are thus : i had heard being a boy , of eternal life promised us by the humility of our lord god descending to our p●ide , and i was already signed with the signe of his cross , and was s●asoned with his salt already , even from the womb of my mother , who much hoped in thee . whence it is apparent that she was then a christian when she bare him in her womb , and dedicated him to christianity , but did not baptize him . after he goes on , and saith , thou sawest lord when i was yet a boy and on a certain day pressed with a pain of the stomack , i was suddenly sick almost about to dye , thou sawest my god , because thou wast my keeper already , with what motion of minde , and with what faith i asked from the piety of my mother , and thy church the mo●her of us all , the baptism of thy christ my god and lord. and the m●ther of my flesh was troubled , because also she did bring forth my everlasting salvation with a chast heart in thy faith , now being very hasty , did take care that i might be initiated and washed with saving sacraments , confessing thee o lord jesus , unless i had been presently recreated . therefore my cleansing was delayed , as if it should bee necessary that i should be defiled if i did live , because to wit , after that washing , greater and more dangerous guilt of sins in filthiness would be . so i did already believe , and she , and all the house except my father alone , who yet did not overcome in me the right of my mothers piety , that i should not believe in christ ; as he had not yet believed . whence it may be easily perceived , . that the childe of a godly affectionate christian , who devoted him to christ , and educated him for christ , yet was not baptized then in infancy , nor by the church re●uired to be bap●ized . . that when he was sick and like to die when hee was but a boy , he earnestly required from his mother and the church baptism . . that it was not to have been done without his confession of christ. . that his recovery afore it could be done put it off , and no other reason was thereof , but that living he was likely to be more guilty of sin if baptized so young . . that baptism was counted cleansing , and a greater and more dangerous guilt apprehended if he did sin after baptism . . that even then he did believe ▪ and his mother and all the house excep● his father , and yet it hindred not his christianity , not is it l●kely could or would hinder his bap●ism in infancy , if his mother and the church had thought it meet , or it had been the use out of the case of apparent danger of imminent death . as for adeod●tus , it is apparent his father believed before he begate him , and he was br●d up by him in gods discipline , as he saith , l. . confes . c. . and though the father was not baptized , yet the grandmother was , and yet adeodatus was not baptized till years old ; and for alipius it is somewhat p●obable hee was born of christian parentage and bred up so , but not baptized till of age . however that were , the case of augustin is full to prove what i conc●ived . for a further declaration of the practise of infant baptism , i alledged grotius his words , who conceived the baptism of infants more frequent in africa then in asia or other parts of the world , and he gave his reason of it , because of the mention of it in the african council at carthage , not in like manner in other councils , to which mr. m. saith , the councils might not mention it , because none did scruple it ; but it is more likely none did scruple i● , because there was no occasion to do so , there being little or no practise of it ; which is made very probable from the th . canon of the council of neocaesarea anno . and the words of nazianzen before mentioned . as for the constitutions of clement , in one whereof they are bid baptize their little ones , mr. m. doth well to confess they are not clements , and if the compiler of them did relate the ancient customes of the greek church , hee did relate later customes also , among which that of baptizing infants is to bee conceived one for the reasons given . grotius annot . in matth. . . saith , and many of the greeks from every age unto this day , keep the use of deferring the baptism of little ones , till they could make confession of their own faith . but of this before , sect . . . i said that i did not find in affrica infants baptized but in case of danger of death or for health of body . dr. homes saith he hath shewed the contrary out of several antiquities , and particularly out of cyprian . but neither in cyprian nor any where else do i find it but the the contrary in tertullian . and as for augustine it was not as he ●aith , that augustines sickness whiles young was some occasion of deferring his baptism for that time , but his sickness occasioned the hastning and his recovery ere it was done put it off for that time . nor doth m● saying that they baptized infants for health of body ( which is manifest from augustines d . epist. to bonifacius ) clash with that which i said of augustines asserting the necessity of infant baptism to take away original sin , and ascribing salvation to it , for he both might and did conceive it to be done for both ends . my mention of the continued use of catechizing in augustines time ▪ and long after , and the mention of baptizing whole countries upon the baptizing of their kings was very pertinent , though not to shew no infants were baptized then , yet to shew how and by what means the ancient custome of baptizing ordinary believers upon profession of faith after catechizing was so strangely changed , that whereas the preface in the common prayer book before the administration of baptism saith , it appeareth by ancient writers that the sacrament of baptism in the old time was not commonly administered but at two times in the year , at easter and whitsontide : at which times it was openly ministered in the pre●ence of all the congregation , the persons to be baptized having been before catechized , now it is quite otherwise , so that in most protestant and popish ▪ countries baptism is ordinary even of inf●nts , at all times in obscure manner , and except of late in these nations , in which god hath begun to restore the right use of baptism , and what bellarmin in his d . book de bonis operibus in particular● . c. . saith , that in the city of rome there is no year in which there are not many baptized at easter , who were catechised , the baptizing of believers is almost unheard of and counted a hainous thing , and punished in some parts as a crime deserving death or banishment . so great is the enormity of paedobaptism , and so great the wickedness of paedobaptists . the d . and main exception i took against augustines judgement which might move us to examine his reasons , was the ground upon which augustine , ambrose , and generally the popish paedobaptists held and urged infant baptism , to wit the damning of the infant if dying unbaptized , which made augustine to be termed the hard father of infants , and affrighted so people in after ages , and doth to this day , that they will have their children by all means , as they count it , baptized , it 's no matter by whom it be done nor how , so somewhat be done ; else they count them lost . to this which is of so great moment to shew the abuse of paedobaptism it is said , that augustine pressed it upon other grounds , but that doth not appear , he urged it , it is true , from circumcision , but upon the same ground that the uncircumcised male should be cut off from gods people ; nor did ●e so retract his errour , but that he still held infants should be damned although with the mildest damnation of all . how the schoolmen and others do follow augustine , mr. perkins shews in his probleme , and many elsewhere , and the common prayer , both in allowing at first baptism by midwives , and in their preface in the administration of publique baptism do plainly shew it was the mind of the composers of that book at first ; no● is there any thing therein , or any of the ancients , o● baptism as belonging to infant● of believers as federally holy . which is a strong evidence that augustines judgement was very corrupt in this point , and that the baptism of infants was introduced , and grew to such an excess upon that errour , and for that reason both augustines judgement and it are to be suspected as evil , and to be rejected . a d. exception against augustines judgement , to shew that he and cyprian were in these points of sacraments not to be rest●d on , was ▪ that augustine epist. . relates the story in cyprian de lapsis about the giving the wine to a girl with credit to it , and some use of it without dislike of the custome ; yea , l. . de p●cc . mer ▪ & remis . c he makes giving infants the eucharist necessary to salvation , alledging jo● . . . for it ; and ch . . he makes it an ancient and apostolick tradition to give the communion to infants , besides what he saith epis. . ● . to the like p●rpose , and he ascribes to john chrysostome , l. . adv . ju● c. , the like ; and e●is . . innocentius bishop of rome held the like ; and this not onely maldonat on joh. . acknowledged to continue . years in the church , from cyprians time to charls the greats time ( as ● remember the account is ) but also erasmus resp ad arch●ep hisp. chamier , paus . cath . tom . . l. . c. . § . . gataker de bapt. infant . vi . p. . say the use of infant communion was ancient ; and to the objection , that this was not defined , dr. john rainold , apolog , thes . § . . answers ; nor doth mr. m. or dr. homes deny it , but mr. m. asks what is your argument hence ? i answer , there is no reason to rely on augu●tines judgement concerning the antiquity and necessity of infant baptism , or to press it on others , who did so fouly mistake about the antiqui●y and necessity of giving the communion to infants , nor to adhere to the ancients determinations and use about infant baptism , who did erre so much about infant communion . for as mr. gataker de bapt. in s vi . p. . saith about augustins authority conce●ning infant baptism , it will not seem equal to press the adverse party concerning the other authority of those whose judgement in the other thy self declinest : but how augustine doted about infant communion is manifest , therefore it is not reason to urge his testimony about infant baptism as to be rested on , but we may say as vorstius adv . bellarm. tom . . contr . . thes . . rat . . the doting of augustine and some other is ill brought for the consent of the whole church ; and we may make that use of this instance of augustines , innocentius , and others errour about infant communion , which cameron doth c. ● . of his examin . of rom. prejudices , to take away the unjust fore-judging of the refusal of infant baptism a● unreasonable , by shewing how little the fathers , particularly augustine , are to be trusted , and what just reason there is to forsake him in the one as they have done in the other . my th . exception was , that augustine . ascribes a certainty of regeneration to children baptiz●d , though they were not brought for spiritual grace , but temporal health . . that he justifies this fact , epist. . ad bonif. mr. m confesseth he ascribed too much sometimes to baptism , yet sometimes he saith of some , that they have the thing of baptism without the sacrament , and so ambrose of valentinian , yet ambrose as well a● augustine at other times attributed too much to outward baptism . to which i reply . it is true , and so did generally the fathers , as may be seen abundantly in mr. gatakers strictures against bishop davenants epist p , &c. and this caused great abuses , . the allowing of infant baptism , yea , and much advancing it ; . the allowing of the baptism of men that kept their beds by reason of sickness on their beds ; . the baptism by wom●n ; . the baptism by athanasius on his play●fellows , which he did in pl●y with them , when but a boy , as sufficicently done for baptism ; . the bringing of infants to be baptized for cure of their bodies . but saith dr. homes , by all the words epist. . ad bonifac. i should think augustine doth no way justifie or excuse their bad intention . ] to which i reply , yet he justifies their bad action , saying , by them the necessary service or ministery is celebrated . my th . exception was , ●hat augustin ep. . ad bonif. was so tenacious of customes then in use , that he doth defend or excuse from lying the answer of sureties , as if the child to be baptized did believe . in this mr. m. saith , i scorn augustines judgement ; and i reply , i do not so much as chamier , paustr. cath . tom . . l . c. . § . . where he ter●s it mimical ▪ as if it were a play on a stage , rather then the celebrating a sacrament in the church , which augustine defended . but saith d● . homes , this is impertinent to the question . i reply , it is very pertinent , . to shew how vain augustines judgement was in these things about baptism and the lords supper : . to shew what was the primi●ive use of propounding the question of his faith to every baptized person , which vives , com . in august . de civit. dei , l. . c● ● . thought a good evidence that of old none were baptized but persons grown up and able to answer the questions . ●o this saith dr. homes , . ●e wonder mr. t. will assert confession of faith in all ages before all baptism from witnesses or sureties , when as we know that the first intimation of touching them was not till about years after christ. and how novel the invention of their confessions is who can justly tell . i reply , . i wonder dr. homes will so untruly say i do so assert ▪ . if sureties were so late an invention , surely infant baptism was at new , it being never without such sureties . . saith he , i propound it to grave consideration , whether sureties did not confess in relation to themselve● , that they might be reputed fit to stand as a kind of parents to a child of an unbelieving parent to be baptized ; even as abrahams profession of his belief in god , gen. . gen. . made him stand as a parent to all his houshold . i reply . upon my consideration it was not so , because tertull. de 〈◊〉 . c. . mentions them as undertakers for the child , and bonifacius and augustine that they professed in the childs stead . my last exception against augustines judgement was , that they baptized any infants even of unbelievers , who ever brought them , and what ever were their intention , they counted it a work of charity , and the defect of the faith of the baptized they counted supplied by the faith of the whole church . to this saith mr. m. neither i in that justifie him : you may take notice that here again you confess the question that infants were baptized . ] i reply , this was not the question . but saith dr. homes , . ●oo much doth not overthrow enough . ] i reply , it overthrows the imitableness of their practise . . this argues against me that infant baptism hath been anciently more universally practised then adul● bap●ism . ] i reply , if so , more infidels children should be baptized then christian converts , which is a monstrous fiction refuted by all the remaining monuments of antiquity . mr. m. they baptized upon covenant holiness believers children , infidels children upon the engagement of undertakers to train them up . i reply , the former appears not , the later was of others as well as believers children , as is shewed before . this is enough to shew the invalidity of augustine and the latine fathers testimonies ●or infant baptism as protestants assert it . to the recollection of the passages about the ancients testimonies , mr. m. answers . . to what i said , that that they practised infant baptism on erroneous grounds , the necessity of it to salvation , the certainty of the remission of original sin by it , denying gods grace to none , and therefore more likely to be an errour ; mr. m. saith , p. . do not tertullian , cyprian , &c. argue from circumcision unto baptism 〈◊〉 we now do , and others of them from covenant holiness ? i answer , no not one that i know of . . to what i said , that it is not proved to have been practised but in case of supposed necessity , he saith , it is otherwise , and an arminian book termed censura censu●ae , of which i have made great use in this controversy ( which is not true ) saith , augustine first grounded infant baptism upon necessity . but i answer , this is not true , that which is said before out of tertullian , nazianzen , cyprian , proves it otherwi●e ; yea , long after augustine , concilium ge●undense in the th . century , appointed in the th . and th . canon , that ordinarily persons catechized not infirm should be baptized at easter and whitsontide , the infirm at other times , and infants if infirm , and desire not the mothers milk if they be offered , the day of their birth ; which expresseth it to be a permission in that case , and shews it to be an exception from the ordinary course : yea , magdeb. cent . ● . c. . of the rites of baptism , shew infants then to have been baptised onely out of fear of death . . to what i said , that there was a constant course of baptizing believers children at age , he saith i have been been mistaken , and this practise was disavowed by their inveighing against deferring ●aptism . i answer , . that i have not been mistaken , appears by that which goes before . . they speak not against deferring infants baptism , but for it , though they speak against the deferring it by the aged . . to what i said of their opinion of the necessity of , and practise of infant communion , he saith , all did not so , though some of the affricans did . i answer , the chiefest of them , and some of them europaeans held it . dr. field , d. book of the church , ch . . saith , according to the old custome used in the primitive church , the greeks minister the sacrament of the eucharist to children when they baptise them . and ortelius in his theat . where he describes the abissins in affrica , saith , to all the baptised the same moment they minister the holy eucharist . . ●o what ● said of their baptizing : infidels children , he saith , it was not their constant and general practise : but it app●ars not but that it was practi●ed and al●owed of as well as the other . . to my words , that the ancientest testimony for pr●ctise according to any rule determined is cyprian , near years after christ , he saith , he must needs take notice of my overlashing ; and i reply , ● must needs take notice of his overlashing in again mentioning justin mar●yr as a witness , though the book be but suppositio●s ; and irenaeus , when ●e saith nothing of it ; and origen ▪ who is d●ubtfull ; and tertullian who is against it ; and excepting against my words as overlashing , w●en the first determination of it in any councel was that of cyprian with hi● . bishops , which , as dr. hammond saith , was anno . near ● . years after christ. . to my words , that infant baptism was not from the beginning , austins semper habuit semper tenu●t is opposed , to which how little credit is to be given , is shewed apol. § . he●e , sect . ● . and in thi● before . . ●o my alledging the proposal of the questions of repentance and faith to infants as a sign that none but those who answered the ●u●stio●s were formerly baptized , it is said , this supposeth these questions to be of as ancient use in the church of god as baptism i●self , whi●h certainly you can never prove from scripture ; i have produced testimonies for infant baptism , afore any you can bring to witness , that those forms of questions and answers had any being in the church . but i think the question of faith pl●inly proved act ▪ . ● . to be an●ecedent to baptism ; and the words of beza , annot . on pet. . are thus ▪ yet to me more nearly now considering the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it doth se●m better to agree that we interpret it stipulation , and that we say the apostle had respect to the interrogations of catechists , in which the ca●echised even then did testifie their more inward baptism to be confirmed by the outward , as act. . . to which the whole apostolick creed looks , and that from the baptism of adult persons by a great errour , if we look to infants themselves , translated to the baptism of infants , doest thou believe ? i do believe . doest thou renounce ? i do renounce . whence that of tertullian , which is as if it were in stead of a commentary on this place in his book of the resurrection of the flesh , the soul is not confirmed or sanctified by washing , but by answering . tertullian de corona militis , aquam adituri ibidem , sed & aliquanto prius in ecclesia sub antis●itis manu contestamur nos renunciare dia●olo & pompae & angelis ejus ▪ dehinc ter inergitamur , amplius aliquid respondentes , quam dominus in evangelio determinavit . grot. in mat. . . proves the profession of faith out of justin martyr , who saith expresly , apol. . that the baptised did promise to ●●ve according to the christian doctrine ; and out of ●gnatius , irenaeus , tertullian , &c. what they answered who we●e baptise● . in the councel of basil in the oration of the cardinal of rag sium it is said , in principio hujus sacramenti baptizabantur solum illi qui per se sciebant fidem interroganti respondere ▪ the testimonies of this kind are so ●any that i think it superfluous to alledge them . the very form of common prayer in propounding th●se questions as they were in augustines time to infants , is evidence enough of the antiquity of that custome of propounding questions to the baptized . . to what i said of the examples of greg nazian chrysos . augus . const ▪ the great to whom i might have added hierome , of whom erasmus in his life testifies of his birth of christian parents , yet not baptized till of age ; mr. m. answers by referring to what is said before : and i intreat the reader to look back to what i say before , sect . , . and this . . in like manner the evidences against infant baptism from tertullians and gregory nazianzen , disswasion , the testimony of the councel of neocaesaria , the silence of eusebius , epiphanius , athanasius , the constant terming it an apostolical tradition , are referred to what is before said by mr. m. and by me to my answers to him and others , in those sections , and sect . . for grotius , what reason i had to alledge him , may be easily discerned by those that know his a●ilities censura censurae was unknown to me as yeelding me any advantage , 〈◊〉 mr. m. here minded me of that book . what vives speaks he had good evidence for , as in part may be seen in what is said before . strabo's testimony is such as vossius his exception doth not weaken , but is sundry ways confirmed here . that i could have brought more testimonies , it hath appea●ed in part by this writing , and in part by my praecusor , sect . and my answer to dr. savage in latine , sect . . the more i search i● to the point of antiquity , the more i am confirmed in my position , that infant baptism is not so ancient as is pretended , as now taught is a late innovation . nor am i alte●ed from the opinion i had , that none before zuinglius taught infant baptism as a priviledge of believers children from federal holiness . tertullians and athanasius his words serve not turn to prove it , nor epiphanius , cyprian , nazianzen , augustine , or chrysostome so taught it from circumcision as due to them by vertue of the covenant to a believer and his seed , but in other manner , as is before shewed . nor do●h the pelagians acknowledgement serve mr. ms. ●urn therein . the more testimonies mr. m. might have added , had added no more weight to the cause then those he alledged have done . i did not charge the ancients that they held that all who died unbaptised were damned ; but that in the case of infants born they taught , that if they died unbaptized they should not enter into the kingdome of heaven , but perish , or be damned , though with the mildest damnation : and this is manifest enough from cyprians epistle to fidus , and very many places of augustine , tertullian l. de bapt. c. . c●m verò prascribitur nemini sine baptismo compe●ere salutem ex illa maximè pronuntiatione domini qui ait : nisi natus ex aqua quis erit , non habet vitam , &c. however ambrose and augustine determine of the salvation of grown persons without baptism , if they believe , desire to be baptized , be martyrs , yet both they and many more held both baptism and the lords supper to be necessary for infants unto salvation by an apostolick tradition , as m. perkins demonst. of the probleme in the point of baptism proves , though perhaps they could not reasonably grant the one and deny the other . that calvin was a m●n well versed in antiquity for his time it 's not denied , nor that he was a man well acquainted in the scriptures ; yet that in neither he was in this point in the right , is so fully demonstrated before , that i may safely say calvin was not therein calvin as he is in his opposition of the papists . and if mr. m. or his friend think it not meet to be tied to calvins judg●ment in the point of the sabbath and lords day and usury notwithstanding his skill in antiquity and scripture , the same in equity is to be allowed to us about the point of baptism . i like mr. ms. acknowledgement with rive● , that tradition is in most points uncertain , and therefore he that will build sure must build on the scripture , and therefore we must necessarily come to arguments from the scriptures , which if they evince not the thing we shall in vain call to tradition . if mr. m. had not fi●st in his sermon forestal●ed his hearers and readers with the pretence o● the churches possession for . years and upwards , and dr. hammond resolved all his proof of infant baptism into his exposition of ●or . . . which he had no way to make good but by tertullian and some of the ancien●s , i had spared this labour of shewing t●eir and and the ancien●s mistakes . tha● doctrine and practise of baptism of infants ●hich austin saith to be according to the sentence of the gospel , is reject●d by pro●estants ; who i● they would in this , as in other things they have done 〈◊〉 , according to scripture and all their own principles , must baptize no infants till they be made believers ; till then they do but prevaricate , and profane the holy ordinance of baptism . sect . xcix . mr. crs. objections about my untruths , his discourse about re-baptizing are refelled . i return now to mr. cragg . part . sect . . he chargeth me with untruths , outvying the number of the lines ; in which he is a false accuser . in the first he mis●recites my words , which were not , that the epistle affirms , that the baptising of believers had its spring and rise from nicholas stork ; but thus , as false it is th●t the baptizing of believers ( called by these anabaptism ) had its spring and rise from nicholas stork and others there named , which were true . for though it was not in those words said by me , that the epistle did so affirm , yet it is true , . that paedobaptists call the baptizing believers which nicholas stork and others practised anabaptism ; me thinks he should not be so impudent as to deny that those whom they baptized were believers , or that they baptized them , or that that baptism is called anabaptism by them . . the very words of the epistle are , the spring and rise of anabaptism had its beginning after truth , and saith the first author thereof was nicholas stork , then phipher , &c. there you have the spring and rise of it , and therefore in my words there is no untruth , but mr. cr. doth falsely insinuate as if there were folshood and inconsequence in my speech , and sl●nderously make me one of the great disturbers of the late reformation , and the first ●uthor of the disturbance or anabaptism , and cunningly altering the subject of the question from anabaptists to baptizers of believers . the d . thing he chargeth on me as untruth , was not expressed as mr. cr. in●inuates , that paedobaptists call the baptizers of belivers anabaptists , but thus [ the baptizing of believers called by these anabaptism ] which cannot be denied to be true , unless he deny that the baptizing used was not baptizing , or the baptized no believers , or that they call it not anabaptism . it is also false that he saith of me , that my judgement and practise is , that all that will be saved must be baptized again , when they become actual believers ▪ and this i put in execution by making as many proselytes by rebaptising as i can . the d. untruth ( as he calls it ) is , that baptising of believers without infants , or excluding infants , had not its spring and rise from nicholas stork ; and he notes , that the epistle affirmed anabaptism ( which is another thing ) had its spring thence . but he neither shews what other thing anabaptism is , nor doth he prove it to be an untruth , but by rendring my own instances against it inv●lid . but therein he d●t● bu● abu●e me , who alledged not the instances he brings to prove that proposition he terms an untruth ; nor is there any thing said by him , but what he hath from mr. ms. defence , and is a●swered before here , sect●● ●● . the th ▪ untruth he ch●rgeth me with , is , that infants baptism was not commanded by christ , and he th●●ks to ●vince the contrary from mat. . . but he saith ●othing but wh●t is ●●●ully refuted before , review , part . sect . , &c. part . sect . . and elsewhere , so that i nee● say no more here to it . the th . untruth he imagines ▪ is ▪ that infant baptism was not practised by the apostles , which being denied by the an●ipaedobaptists , the proof lies upon them . but by his ●●ave the proof lies upon the paedobaptists , to prove they did baptize infants , sith they claim a right to it , which mu●● be proved by precep● o● example of the doing it . validity●o ●o sh●w infant baptism not to be according to gods will , sith in meer positive instituted worship , wherein ●od hath set down what he will have done , he will have it so done , and no otherwise . it is pro●ed b●fore , review , part . sect . . &c. part . sect . that the apostles baptized not infants . mr. crs. imagined reasons why they might baptize none but of ripe age , de facto , are vain , there being no intimation of any such reason● in the history of the apostles acts : yea , the story is against his surmises , for the converted and baptized did not travel far to hear the apostles , but the apostles travelled far to preach to them in their own cities , and in them they went from house to house , acts . , . & . . hierusalem and all judea , and all the region round about jordan are said to go out to john baptist to be baptized of him in jordan , confessing their sins , which cannot be meant of infants . though infants be a par● of a nation , yet mat. ● . . is. . . by nations no infant is meant , nor luk ▪ . . is in●ant baptism intimated . the baptism of infants is not proved from act. . . v. , . shew that by the house are meant persons of age : and by so expounding we diminish not gods word , nor make exception that god hath not made , nor imply a contradiction , nor incur a curse , as mr cr. after his vein of pratling , writes . all that mr. cr. saith in opposition to what i said of baptizing believers in the first ages continued without any infant baptism , proves not my words an untruth , nor a frontless assertion , and is answered before , sect . , , ●●n which , and sect . , . all that he brings to evince my th . and th . untruth ( as he terms my words ) is examined . i justly account infant baptism a popish abuse , it being derived from these principles , unwritten tradition , and necessi●y of it to save an infant dying , which are judged popish errours . and for answer to what mr. cr. saith of my th . untruth , as he terms it , i refer the reader to the th . section of my praecursor , not refelled by mr. baxter in his praefestinantis morator . sect. . mr. cr. excepts against me for saying , . that the epistlers assignation of the causes of anabaptism are vain . . that anabaptism is true baptism . . that the true cause is the light shining from scriptures and other authors . . that this light was not discovered formerly as now . what he saith against the first , is but a repeating of the reasons , without any confirmation , but some light poetical peda●ti●ue expression● , which deserve onely neglect . against the ●d . he gives his reasons against reiteration of baptism , which are nothing ●o me , who asserted not th●● baptizing twice was true baptism , but baptizing ●f persons of age professing ●aith though in infancy imagined to have been baptized is true baptism . yet do i see no force in the reasons he gives . for . in the institution of baptism , mat. . . the precept is to the baptizer , and i presume he doth not think the baptizer is not to reiterate his act of baptizing , yea doubtless he is to baptize as oft as there are disciples made by him . and as for the act of the baptized , which is implied it is true , neither is it determined to be once or twice , and may therefore seem to be left to liberty . that he allegeth , whatsoever is not of faith is sin , is clean mistaken by him , the meaning ●eing onely , what a man doth with a doub●ing conscience is sin to him , & so by this reason rebaptization is a sin only to him that doubts of it . and when ●e saith , whatsoever is not grounded on the scripture is will worship , i presume he means it of that which is used as worship , and determined to be but once . but then the question is only begg'd , not proved , that christ hath determined baptism to be but once . in that which he saith of act. . . ( which is an instance of being twice baptized ) i find nothing brought by mr. cr. to avoid the force of it . for to be baptized into johns baptism can be no other then to be baptized with water according to the pro●ession of johns disciples , and this was true baptism from heaven , not differing in the nature of it from christs , as say protestant divines ; and it is certain , that to be baptised into the name of the lord jesus , i● to be baptized with water into the profession of him , as act . ● , . & . . the giving the holy ghost is distinctly expressed v. . to have been by laying on of hands , and this was on the same persons v. . who were ●aid to hear and to be baptised v. . and these were not all the people mentioned v . bu● twelve onely v. . and therefore it is far more probable , and in mine apprehension certain , as the ancients did conceive , that those twelve were baptized with water twice , once according to the profe●●●on johns disciples made at baptism , and the other according to the christian. nor am i moved by the observation of marnixius , ●p●roved by beza in hi● annot . in locum , and followed by many others , that the particles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must necessarily answer each other , and therefore ●he words v , . be pauls . for . the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is put oft , and the matter requires it should be so conceived here , either as an expletive that is without force , to which in the vulgar transla●ion nothing answers , as it is act . , , &c. o● an adverb of affirmation , or if it be a conjunction di●cretive , that which answers to it is not that v. . there being no good sense , to say , john verily baptised with the baptism of repent●nce , saying unto the people , that they should believe on him which should come after , that is , on christ jesus ; but they hearing this , &c. there being no apt discretion made in such speech , if the particles be discretive , the other part is concealed , and should be to thi● purpose , but the baptism we use is into the name of the father , son , and holy spirit , or into the name of the lord jesus already come . and for this reas●n the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must be expounded as our interpreters , when , or as a meer expletive as in the vulgar . . the words act. . . do give an obvious plain sense on the other side as the words of luke , thus , when the twelve , mentioned v. . heard this of paul , that it was christ ●esus to come after john , on whom john would have his disciples to believe when he baptized them with the baptism of repentance , then they were baptized into the name of the lord jesus with express profession of him . nor is it true that there is express scripture , ephes. . one lord , one faith , one baptism , against the iteration of the same baptism . for as one faith notes n●t one act of believing , but one kind of faith from the unity of the object b●lieved , which may be and is one faith though an hundred times iterated ; so one baptism notes not one act of baptizing , but one kind of baptism distinct from pharisaical baptism into the observance of the law f●r righteousness , termed one by the profession of the same doctrine or lord , though it be an hundred times iterated . the same man baptized an hundred times , and an hundred men once onely baptized , each of them have one baptism in the ●postles sense , if they be baptized with the same profession ; and the same person though but once baptized , yet if with another profession , hath not that one baptism there meant : one baptism is not as much as once baptized and no more , but baptism into one profession and no other . the d . argument is of no force , baptism is the sacrament of regeneration , or new birth ; and as austin hath it , we are ca●nally and naturally born but once , so we are spiritually and supernaturally new born but once ; faith though it admit of gradations begins but once , baptism that matriculates us into christs school is to be performed but once . answ. the scripture no where terms baptism the sacrament of regeneration ; nor , if the expression be allowed , will it follow baptism is to be but once . fo● . it doth not follow , natural birth is but once , therefore supernatural new birth , which is onely so metaphorically , is but once ; as it follows not , we die naturally but once , therefore we die to sin , or through sin but once . natural birth hath not degrees , therefore neither regeneration . . baptism is not regeneration though it were yeelded to be the sacrament of regeneration , and therefore though regeneration could be but once , yet baptism might be often . . ●hose that hold intercision of regeneration and faith ( which i do not ) will say that regeneration may be often , and faith begin of●en . . baptism may be termed the sacrament of regeneration either as the cause or sign of it . if as the cause of it so it should rather follow it should be often administred , as the word is often p●eached to beget us again . if as the sign , so it may often be used to signifie it , though it be but once done ; as the breaking of bread is oft used to signifie christs death , though he died but once . the d. argument , from once circumcision , is of less force . for neither is it true , that our baptism succeeds jewish circumcision , nor is it proved that in no case a person might be twice circumcised ▪ nor if both these were granted will it follow , that the rule of circumcising but once must be a rule to us of baptizing but once , any more then the jews circumcision was tied to the th . day , therefore so must our baptism . yet this reason of mr. cr. may be thus urged against infant baptism : circumcision was tied to the ●h ▪ day , therefore to circumcise on another day were sacriledge ; baptism is tied to disciples , or believers , mat. . . mar. . , . therefore to baptize infants who are not disciples or believers , cannot be justified without sacriledge , at the rate of mr. crs. reasoning . the rest of that section and the next section need no other answer then what is already made , there being no argument needfull to be answered , nor any thing almost but scosti●g rhetorick , cavils , mis●representations of my words and the passages a● disputes , which were rightly represented in the d . section of my plea. sect . c. the arguments of mr. cragg for infant baptism are re-examined . mr. cr. in the dispute at abergavenny began thus , some infants may not be baptised , therefore some infants may be baptised ; and this the relator ( who was likely to be himself , or one whose relation he viewed and approved ) terms an enthymema . to which in my plea● answered , . the consequence could not be made good according to logick rules , but by adding this proposition , all that may not be baptized may be baptized . . that it is like these arguings , some infants may not have the lords supper , therefore some may ; some boys are not to be ordained bishops , therefore some are . to this he replies , part . sect . . . that the relator and i were both mistaken : which if true , it was ill done that he did not rectifie the thing ere i● was printed . . that my censure of this arguing as frivolous , arose from ignorance or inadvertency , that betrayed me to a double mistake , . that there was no way of arguing consecutive , by two propisitions , bu● enthy●ematically , so that they were immediately reducible , to a syllogism compleat in mood and figure . . if an enthymema and reducible , that it must necessarily be resolved into his syllogism as he calls it , all that may not be baptized , may be baptized ; some infants may not be baptized , ergo , some infants may be be baptized . truly this is so frivolous , and deserves so much contempt , that a fresh man would laugh at it . and then he goes on , i would gladly know to what mood of the first figure ( for it hath sub prae ) his monstrous syllogism belongs , consisting in the premises of two negatives , in the conclusion of an affirmative ; whereby ( as eve●y puny knows ) two maximes are violated , . that of pure negatives nothing is concluded . . that the conclusion should follow the unworthier part , whereas he extracts an affirmative conclusion from negative premises . answ. i am content that an ingenious fresh man judge whether there were any ignorance , inadvertency or mistake in my answer to this arment , and whether there be not gross ignorance and sophistry , in his argument , and in the reply impudent boldness to avow such a shamefull act ; and that any wise conscientious christian judge , whether the argument at first , or this reply , could come out of any other then a wrangling spirit , bent to baffle a respondent , and make sport for a company of vain auditors and readers , without any care befitting a christian teacher to clear truth . at first when i denied the consequence he proved it not , but brought a syllogism concluding another thing then the consequence ; and whereas then his syllogism appeared to have four terms , he brings another syllogism , in which he would infer , that because subcontraries may be both true , therefore that proposition , some infants may be baptized , must be true ; as if because both may be true , it follows that proposition must be true : whereas every fresh man knows , that though both may be true , yet it is true also one may be false , and that may be the proposition he infers , notwithstanding the ●o●ce of that rule . now in the reply he discovers the same spirit . though his relator ( with whom he must concur , or else they juggle with readers ) term his dispute an enthymema , yet he would not have it so conceived , bu● tels us there is a kind of argumentation in ke●kerm . syst . log. l. . tr . . c. . defined , one sentence or proposition following another without disposition of the medium as in conversions . but doth he shew there is any such c●nversion , or any other way of consecution of sentences allowed by keckerman or any logician in his argumentation ? then when i had reduced it to that syllogism to which the enthymeme was to be reduced according to logick rules , he hath the impudence to term this my syllogism , and ●o suggest as if i were not able to make a syllogism , or reduce that to a syllogism which was reducible , whereas the syllogism was his own virtual●y , as all logicians know that understand the rule about enthymemes , though it were formed by me rightly and the monstrosity of it must ●ie at his door , not mine , who value little his judgement of my abilities , better known to others of better esteem then to him . and for the way he new forms it , it is quite another argument then what he made at the dispute , and of which the minor is to be denied , which is thus , there are some infants besides them that are excluded baptism , but this is contrary to the antecedent in the enthymeme , some infants may not be baptised , which should be the minor he adds ▪ that the force of the argument lies in the immediatoness of the propositions , that what belongs not to one of them must needs belong to the other , and a topick rule out of cracanthorp , and some other instances about divisions , in all which there is nothing but vanity . for let propositions be immediate , yet w●●n they are opposite as these are , some infants are to be baptised , some not , the one follows not from the other , but the contrary rather , except in those termed subaltern , which are rather subordinate then opposite . his instances of consequences upon a sufficient division , they are all impertinent here , where there is no division of term , but the same terms are in both propositions . in his answer to my instances he would make a difference between the propositions about infant bap●ism and the lords supper , and ordination to be bishops , that the one is in a capable subject , not the other ; but he shews not that an infant is capable of baptism any m●re then of the lords supper , or a boy of ordination ; nor if they were doth the force of the argument ●old more in the one then in the other : and therefore it 's his ignorance to say , no●ut ●ut it is whether this ●llation be good , some are not , therefore some are to be baptised ; which if right , it will follow in the other instances of communion and o●dination as well as in it . that which he saith of my grant of the capacity of ba●tism , because i grant they may be elected and believe and would if i knew it of infants baptize them , follows not ; for though my ignorance hinders not their capacity in themselves , yet it hinders their capacity from mee , i being not warranted to baptize any believer till his faith be manifested to me . sect. . mr. cr. goes on to scribble after his usual manner . he had thus dispu●ed , to whom belongs the essence of baptism they may be baptised , but to some infant , belongs the essence of baptism , ergo. to this i said , this proposition , the essence of baptism belongs to infants , may have two senses . he replies , as if i distinguished of a two f●ld essence of baptism ▪ which he terms a chymaera , the essence of a thing being but one and indivsible ; whi●h shews hee hath some smattering in metaphisicks , but is impertinent to the thing in hand . for be it all granted , yet a proposition which speaks of the essence may have a two-fold sense ; and the senses i conceived of his words were rightly set down , and more favourably to mr. cr. then his words did deserve . for this proposition , to some infants belongs the essence of baptism , must have one of those senses , or a worse , to wit , either that infants are in the definition of baptism , so as that there is no baptism but of infants ; or that baptism is of the essence of infants , so as that they are no infants without baptism , which are absurd . and to speak truly , the whole argument is ridiculous , take it what way he will , except he give the same sense which i did , and then the minor and the conclusion are all one , and the major meerly tautological , to whom the right administration of baptism belongs they may be lawfully baptized , but to infants , &c. ergo ▪ in the other sense it is more vain . for if the essence numerical of baptism belong to infants then not a moral right is asserted , but either a present or a future event , and so the minor proposition should be , some infants are baptized , which is a thing discerned by sense ; or shall be baptized , which were a prediction , but nothing to the point about moral or legal right . to understand it of the specifical essence , makes no sense but what is worse . his proof from the definition is also as vain ▪ for it is a proof of the same by the same : but he tels me , it is not all one as to argue infant baptism is baptism , therfore it is right baptism , but it concludes infant baptism is baptism , therefore infants may be baptized , which is the question by this inference put out of question . to which i reply , this talk 〈◊〉 to me like the words of a crazed man , there being no question between u● about the baptism of infants , whether they may be baptized , that is whether this may be done to them so as that they be passive subjects of it , i never denied that infants may be thus baptized , but the question is whether it may be lawfully done by him that doth it , and then to say they may be baptized is all one as to say infant baptism is right baptism , and so his argument from the definition is that which he denies not to be vain , infant baptism is baptism , therefore it is right baptism . but he thinks to prove from the definition , that infant baptism is right baptism , and he sets down his conceits of baptism , that it is a relation whose fundament is the divine institution in●olding infants in all nations in severall families , which if he onc● p●ove , he needs prove no more , but here he doth not attempt it , but excepts against me for denying baptism to be a relation , but an action or passion with a relation superadded , and he brings against me sayings of divines who call it a signe , which i deny not in respect of the use , but that shews not the nature of it , no more then circumcision is in its nature a relation , because it is a signe of the covenant in its use , the carrying a scepter is in its nature a relation , because in its use it is a sign of royalty . what he saith , that i tell not whether it be action or passion , and not to be placed in one category is to be placed in none , is answered by his own confession , that in baptism is included baptization which is both action and passion , which is enough to shew that baptism is in its nature either an action or a passion , and may be put in either predicament , and that in different respects a word may be put in divers predicaments , and his talk false , that nothing formally can be placed in two categories , and the rest of his talk about the genus of baptism being a signe , and other passages to be but mistakes . but he attempts to gain his ●urpose by this argument , every sacrament is a relation , but baptism is a sacrament , ergo. to which i answered , both premises ●ight be d●nied , and as a reason of the denial alleged , ● that the term [ sacrament ] being but a term invented by latin fathers , may be laid asi●e . he replies , that the . tables and tully mention it , therefore it was long before the latin christian fathers ; true , but not in the sense in which baptism is termed a sacrament . but , if the word sacrament be laid aside because a heathen word , then should also the terms bishop , pre●byter , deacon , be laid as●de also . answ. no , f●r they are scripture terms , not so the t●rm sacrament in the ecclesiastical sense : yet again , then trinity , unity , humanity , antipaedobaptist must be laid aside . answ. it followes not , yet what ● said of sacrament i say of them , they may be laid aside , when an argument is drawn from them , as here from the word sacra●ent . he adds , besides is there not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mystery in the original ? answ. it is , but never in the use in which the term sacrament is used as now it is defined . . i alleged that there is no common nature of sacraments ( not as mr. cr. of a sacrament ) express'd in scripture , this he saves is untrue in the sequel . for what consequence ? there is no common nature of a sacrament expressed in scripture , therefore baptism is not a sacrament , more then in this ? there is no common nature of infused grace expressed in scripture , therefore faith is not an infused grace . answ. it was not my sequel ; but this , therefore the term sacrament may be laid aside , and no good argument is from the definition of a sacrament to prove baptism to be a relation . the term grace or grace of god , i do much question whether any where in scripture it be applied to inherent qua●ities in us , or good acts proceeding from us , and i conceive that the use of it in that manner hath occasioned or strengthened the errour of justification by inherent righteousness , because we are said to be justified by grace , and do wish that when approvers of preachers are directed to examine persons of the grace of god in them , the thing had been otherwise expressed , and that such an expression as the gift by grace , or the like were used ; yet i deny not there is in scripture a common nature of those gifts by grace in us which accompany salvation , and that faith is a gift by grace infused , inspired , or wrought by the spirit of god. mr. cr. saith further , untrue in it self , for though not in one place there may be in many places of scripture compared together a common nature of sacraments compared together . and is there not the common nature of a sacrament expressed in one scripture rom. . . a seal of the righteousness of faith ? this is the judgement of the ancients , and the most of the divines of the reformed churches ▪ answ. that neither the text rom. . . nor the ancients do so define a sacrament , is shewed before ; and however the divines of the reformed churches do define thence a sacrament as the seal of the covenant , yet not ( as there it is expressed ) a seal of the righteousness of faith ; but of this i have said enough before sect . . what i said of austins definition of a sacrament , that it is a visible signe of invisible grace , as imperfect ( which i proved by instances ) was without a miscellany of absurdities ; ●f the descent of the holy ghost as a dove were a signe or seal of christs office of mediatorship and not of his righteousness of faith , yet it was a visible signe of his holy qualifications , luk. . . joh. . . and so of invisible grace , and consequently a sacrament by austins definition ; christs washing his disciples feet , shewed his love and humility , ergo , by austins definition must be also a sacrament ; and holding up the hands in prayer shews faith in god ; kissing the bible in swearing shews appealing to god as judge or hope in his word , which are invisible graces according to austin , and according to his definition sacraments . and though it be added in the common prayer book catechism , ordained by christ , yet it is not so in austins definition used by mr. cr. in the dispute , and if it had , holding up the hands in prayer had been a sacrament , being ap●ointed tim. . . and for the addition in the catechism [ as a means to receive the same , and a pledge to assure us thereof ] i know no scripture that ever made ci●cumcision , the passeover , the lords supper , or baptism , meanes to receive invisible grace , and how fa● and in what manner it assures i have before sect . . and elsewhere shewed . enough of mr. crs. vain pra●●le in this section . sect. . mr. cr. quarrels with my reconciliation of my own words , denying all invisible churchmembers were to be baptized , but affirming it of vi●ible . he tels me , . this distinction is not fitly applied , for the proposition was meant of visible churchmembe●ship . but . however it were mea●t the expression was , god appointed infants churchmembers under the gospel , and this might be understood of invisible as well as visible churchmembership ; and therefore it was fitly applied to take away the ambiguity of the expression . . it was fitly applied also to ●l●er my meani●g , and to free my words from contradiction . . he tels me my proposition is not true , for all visible churchmembers are not to be baptized , then all ba●tized before ( they being visible members ) were to be baptized again . but what is this but wrangling , sith the proposition was his own , and i granted it with that limitation in his own sense , of them that were not yet baptized ? he tels me of the state of the question between us , which is impertinent to the present business of cleering my words . he adds , invisible and visible members differs as genus and species , all invisible members are visible , but not all visible members invisible , the invisible being extracted out of the visible ; now if all invisible members be also visible , it will inevitably follow they may be baptized , whether visible by profession , or by prerogative and promise of parents or sureties of infants . but what a dotage is this ? doth visible churchmember praedicari de pluribus specie differentibus in quid ? if it be asked what is an invisible churchmember , will any that is in his wits say hee is a visible churchmember ? is not this a contradiction , to say all invisible members are visible ? how is it proved that any are visible members of the christian church , but by profession of faith ? the like dotage is in what he saith after , that there is an intrinsecal connexion of th●se termes [ actually to receive into covenant under the gospel , and to appoint church-members under the gospel ] that they are as essentially coincident as to bee a man and a reasonable creature ▪ which makes this proposition to be aeter●ae veritatis , those whom god did actually receive into covenant under the gospel , those god did appoint churchmembers under the gospel . for is the one to be defined by the other ? do not these terms express existences restrained to hic and nunc ( for sure actual receiving and appointing are singular acts in ti●e ) not essences ? if these speeches of mr. cr. be according to metaphysical and ●ogical principles , i am yet to seek in them , as having not heard or read of such principles before . and if god did promise before the law , fore●ell under the law , actually receive into covenant under the gospel , or appoint churchmembers under the gospel without faith or profession of ●aith , then infidels are actually in covenant under the gospel , and so justified ; then is mr. baxters dispute against antinomians , about the condition of the covenant and justification false , and if they be churchmembers without faith or profession of faith and to be baptized , and the truth of mr. crs. proposition , those whom god did promise before the law , foretell under the law , actually receive in●o covenant under the gospel , those god did appoint churchmembers under the gospel , have no dependence upon ●aith or profession of faith ; then mr. baxters arguments in his d . dispute of right to sacraments against mr. blake are fal●e ; so that i need no more but to leave mr. cr. to be chastized by his magnified doctor mr. baxter about this point ; and so enough of this section . sect. . he terms this an untruth , that a person may bee in covenant , who i● not yet born or conceived as my i●stance of isaac implies , and saith ; it may bee confuted insito argumento , by an argument inbred in the terms , for he implies and that right , that a person must be the subject of being in covenant , but none who is unborn , and unconceived as isaac gen. . . is a person . ] but this is false , he may be a person though not in present but future existence . those ephesians who were el●cted before the foundation of the world , eph. . . were persons when elected , for they were singular men , though not then in actual being but future . mr. crs. reasoning in this , is like the reasoning of adam medlicot my neighbour , in his book stiled comfortable doctrine for adams off-spring , p. ▪ who will not have any particularly elected before the foundation of the world , because then they were not any where men , and p. . that none is absolutely elected till he believe , because not in christ , and if not in christ not in election , and one is elected before another because in christ before another . and in his honey found in the lions carkass , p. . although the purpose of election and reprobation was fully in god before time , yet there could be no absolute or real election or reprobation of men and women , until they had a real and absolute beeing . surely infants are in covenant no otherwi●e then by gods promise or mans vow , or some such act in their behalf , and this may be afore they are in being , and consequently they may be in covenant afore they are in actual being . if i do not mistake , mr. cr. both here sect. . and in the d. part sect. . makes those with whom the covenant was made deut. . . to have been in covenant , but doubtless the covenant there was made with the posterity yet unbegotten v. , . for no other can bee meant by him that was not with them that day , all that were born or begotten then of the congregation of israel , whether by nature or proselytism being present , as the words v. , . shew , and the end of the covenant being to prevent the apostasie of their posterity v. . therefore the unbego●ten were in covenant . nor is it a good argument , a man is in covenant , ergo he is , any more then a man is elected therefore he is , these termes being termini diminuentes , as logicians speak ; and the verb ( est is ) in these speeches not noting the present existence of the subject of these propositions , but of the act of the person who elects or covenants . a child unbegotten may be said to be in a copy or a deed , and so in covenant in respect of the assuring an estate to him wh●n hee shall be existent . but mr. cr. tels me , ly . it is a false suggestion that to have a covenant made to one is to be in covenant , if by having the covenant made to ( for the phrase is somewhat strange ) ●e meant ( as he can mean nothing else ) a promise from god to be and be in covenant , for a promise may be made to or of one , long before he hath any being , nor executed or performed till long after his being ; then to be elected and ●o be in covenant would be both one , then mary magdalen and paul while a persecutor were in covenant , nay from eternity to be in covenant would precede outward an● inward calling , conversion , profession and prerogative of birth , then which nothing can be more ridiculous . answ. it is so far from being ridiculous , that to me it is very plain to be in covenant precedes calling , and to be in covenant is to have a covenant made to one , and that a person is said to be in covenant with god by gods promise to be his god though the man be not existent . this is in my apprehension that which paedobaptists mean by being in covenant , for they usually say infants are in covenant , which sure they mean of gods promise to them , for they prove it from gen. . . acts . . nor can they mean it of any other being in covenant , sith there is no act of any infant or any other for him , that can denominate him in covenant with god in the time of the gospel , but gods promise , which is long before the being of those to or for whom it is made , tit. . . gal. . , . and thus two kingdomes are said to be in league and covenant , and they that are born many yeers after may be said to be in covenant by vertue thereof . this being in covenant may be , though the things covenanted be not executed or performed till long after the being in covenant , as persons first enter into covenant and then perform . and yet to be in covenant and to be elected would not be both one , though attributed to the same persons , si●h there is a different formal conceit of them , election being an immanent act , covenant a transient , that from eternity , this in time , as to be justified and sanctified are not both one , though to the same persons . nor is it any absurdity to say paul was in cove●ant while a persecutor , nor that to be in covenant precedes conversion , sith i● is by vertue of being in covenant that one is converted , heb. . . rom. . , . as for being in covenant with god by prerogative of birth , i know not of any such in the time of the gospel . thirtdly ( saith mr. cr. ) it is of the same leven of untruth , that isaac was in covenant when he was not yet born , which his own quotation , gen. . . proves against him . for he saith he will establish a covenant with isaac in the future , not that he does establish a covenant in the present . answ. surely isaac was a child of the promise , rom. . , . and jacob , v. . afore they were born , and ●●nsequently in the covenant ; and when god said he would establish his covenant with isaac , he meant no other then the covenant made with abraham , and therefore it was made to him then , and he in covenant , though confirmed and performed after . mr. cr. saith of my speech , that a person is not actually received into covenant till he is born , and by some acts of his own eng●geth himself to be gods , that it is founded upon the basis of this mistake , that every covenant must be expresly and actually mutual between both parties ; and talks after his foolish fashion , as if it were an argument sophistically ( though sillily ) drawn a negatione unius speciei ad totum genus : but this is his meer cavil . for my reason added , receiving importeth an offering , which is to be done by profession , shews i inferred it otherwise . against which his exception is in these words , as if more were to be required for admission of visible members into covenant , then was for admission , or actual receiving of christ as god ▪ man and mediator to be visible head of the church . to which i reply , when and how christ was visible head of the church , is a point that requires much discussion . to be head of the church imports direction , government , &c. to be visible head , is to do these things discernably by reason from something sensible . that he was visible head of the church till he was manifest to israel , and how he was visibly head of it but by his preaching , calling disciples , or how he was actually received as such but by believing on his name , joh. . . or how he was admitted visible head but by johns declaration , his baptism of him , the spirits descent on him , and his fathers proclamation of him , or how any according to the evangelical order are admitted visible members into covenant but by their own profession of faith , and thereupon being baptized , i understand not . but as for my speech , i see not how it imports that which mr. cr. would have it to do , but onely , that being actually received into covenant doth import an offer or tender on his part who is to be received , which however it might be under the law , yet sure in the gospel is no other way but by the persons own profession ; and this neither smels rank of heresie nor blasphemy , but mr. crs. conceit as if under the gospel some might be received into covenant , and admitted as visible members representatively by others , who are their proxies , and engage for them , they being but meer passives without any voluntary act of their own , is but an innovation from what christ or his ●postles appointed o● practised ; and his acknwledgement that it is not necessary that a covenant be mutual , that the covenant ezek. . . gen. . . & . . are such as wherein one party maketh the covenant without mentioning the other but as patient , serves me to prove what i assert before , sect . . against mr. bl. that a covenant is not always a mutual agreement , and that a person is said to be in covenant in that a covenant is made to him , and this may be to persons not actually existent , against mr. cr. in this section . mr. cr. to prove that god did promise to abraham that infants should be in covenant under the gospel , alledgeth gen. . . and thus a●gue . he that makes an everlasting covenant to abraham and his seed after hi● in their generations , pro●●●ed that infants should be in covenant und●r the gospel ; god made an everlasting covenant with abraham and his seed after him , ergo. to this i said i had many exceptions ; for besides those to which mr. cr. here replies , i might and do deny his major for another reason then i did before . for now by his words p. . i perceive by being in covenant under the gospel , he means an outward and visible covenant , like to which he hath p. . and p. . he calls this an impregnable rock which the anabaptists will never overthrow , that to be circumcised or baptized is all one as to be in visible covenant ; and p. . he saith , i clearly affirm with all the reformed churches , that all in visible covenant a●e subjects of baptism , and all subjects of baptism are in visible covenant . i must confess , imagined that paedobaptists if th●y would speak plainly could mean no other by the being of infants in covenant under the gospel but their being baptized ; and so their argument , infants are in covenant , ergo to be baptized , is but a meer tautology , or worse , they are baptized therefore they are to be baptized . but i think i have sect . . before shewed , that the distinction of outward and inward covenant as the paedobaptists use it , is either non ens or non-sense , and i now deny this proposition , he that makes an everlasting covenant to abraham and his seed after him in their generations promised that infants should ●e in covenant under the gospel , not onely for the reason given in the dispute , but also because i now perceive he means ( unless he still juggle , as i fear he will in the use of the phrases being in covenant , the covenant is made , &c. ) that god promised that infants should be baptized under the gospel , which is too ridiculous a sense to be put upon the promise of being a god to abraham and his seed , gen. . . much unlike christs exposition of the phrase , luke . , . and seems to be the attempt of men that have for their baby-sprinkling resolved to avow the grossest absurdities . but to keep to the dispute as it hath been printed . i said the covenant gen. . . to abraham and his seed after him in their generations , if it be understood of the natural seed of abraham , the everlastingness of it was but for a time , and that time afore the gospel as in the next verse ; the possession o● canaan is promised to be everlasting , and yet the jews now dispossessed of it . which mr. cr. grants , and therefore must needs grant , that the promise v. though it be termed everlasting , yet it is to be understood onely of a limited time , as in other passages , exod. ● . . & . . &c. if meant of the natural seed of abraham . to this he replies , how doth that follow ? if it had been with a particle of exclusion , onely to the natural seed , there might have b●en some colour of dispu●e ; and yet without all controversie , the everlastingness of it is extended even to the na●ural seed of abraham ; for there hath been , is ▪ and will be a succession of jewish believers to the end of the world ; which proves that in his sense it 's false , that the everlastingness of it was but for a time , and that time afore the gospel . answ. my meaning was plain enough , that the covenant as it was evangelical , that is , as it contains a promise of the spirit , justification , &c. ( which is the onely gospel covenant i know ) if meant of the natural seed of abraham , that is , the generality , or body of them was but for a time afore the gospel , which i learned from our lord christ , who foretold mat. . that the kingdome of god should be taken from them , and the apostle saith was accomplished , rom . . that the branches , meaning the jewish people , were broken off by unbelief : and this is true , though it be true also that there have been a succession of jewish believers still , they being a remnant onely according to the election of grace , rom ● . . and thus they were not meerly abarhams natural seed , but also his spiritual , to wit , elect and true believers , to whom i never denied the covenant to be simply everlasting . mr. cr. adds . but the truth is , it is not onely meant of the natural seed , but of the spiritual seed of abraham , both whereof successively and in part , if not altogether concomitantly ( for there were always proselytes ) i● is everlasting , or to the end of the world . answ. if mr. cr. me●n , that to the natural seed , who are also the spiritual seed , the covenant gen. . . is simply everlasting , i grant it ; but this doth no way advantage mr. cr. for then it will onely follow , that to such infants as are not onely the natural seed of abraham or a believer , but also are themselves believers , god hath promised they shall be in covenant under the gospel ; which would not be true of all the infants of believers , or any but the elect : if he mean it as it is there meant ( as appears by the next words , v. . ) being understood of the natural seed of abraham of the nation or people of israel , and not of a remnant of them , it can be true onely of a limited everlastingness , and not at all of the gentile believers infants , and so is not at all for mr. crs. purpose . but he tels me , it follows not , unless the same word in adjoyning verses must necessarily signifie the same thing ; which if so , an argument might be drawn against the infiniteness and eternity of the deity from these words , god of gods and lord of lords , gods and lords in the latter signifies creatures , therefore in the former ; but how inconsequently in both , a child may judge . answ. my arguing needs not proceed thus , but is good against mr. cr. thus , the term [ everlasting ] signifies a limited everlastingness afore the gospel , v. . therefore it may be so meant v. . and if meant of the body of the israelitish people who were the natural seed of abraham , it must be so meant , otherwise it were not true . and for his instance , i think the argu●ent not good as he makes it ; yet it follows , the term [ god ] doth not necessarily of it self infer infiniteness and eternity , but when it is appl●ed to the most high god the creatour , who is the god of gods , because it is sometimes spoken of creatures . but mr. cr. tels me , that v. . can be true onely in one of these senses , that they had title to all the land of canaan , though not actual possession of it , or that it was a type of the everlasting spiritual canaan , in which senses from abraham they possessed it ; or that the plenary , and full possession of the whole begins at the conversion of the jews , and shall last from thence to the end of the world without interruption , because neither abraham nor his seed had actual possession of all the land of canaan ; none of these will support mr. t. his declining cause . answ. that the land of canaan , gen. . . must be meant of that part of the earth so called is manifest from the expression , wherein thou art a stranger , or the land of thy sojournings , and might be , if need were , proved by multitudes of other scriptures and that the seed of abraham is that which is natural and afore their later conversion , is apparent from v. , . where the seed to whom the land of canaan is promised are enjoyned to be circumcised , and the term possession v. . cannot be meant of a mere title , for that 's implied in the words will give , but the possessi●n is distinct from it and consequent upon it , therefore i choose rather to untie mr. crs. knot by expounding it thus , i will give to thee and to thy seed after thee all the land of canaan for an everlasting possession , but not altogether , thou shalt possess a part in thy time as a pledge of the whole , as his burying place was , and thy seed in joshua's and davids time shall possess the whole , and this shall be not onely a place to sojourn in , but a possession for them to dwell in , and that everlasting , that is , f●r many ag●s , as phine●as his priesthood is termed everlasting , numb . . . so long as they shall keep my covenant and observe my statutes . now this will serve thus far to support my cause , which is still standing and not declining , to shew that the covenant gen. . . as it is made to the natural seed of abraham is termed everlasting , that is , for a limited time afore the gospel ; which sense also the terms for ever and everlasting have , exod. . . & . . numb . . . &c and so the major proposition of mr. cr. justly denied , he that makes an everlasting covenant to abraham and his seed after him in their generations , promised that infants should be in covenant under the gospel . sect. . mr. cr. endeavours to draw gal. . . to his purpose , to prove a continuance of the gospel covenant to the end of the world , to abraham and his seed , by paraphrasing it thus ; that the scripture foretold that god would justifie the heathen through faith , that is , the partition wal● should be pulled down , and the heathen nations should profess faith as visible members , whereof some should be actually justified as members invisible . but besides his inept expression of [ heathen nations ] which is all one with nations nations , he abuseth the text by paraphrasing [ through faith ] thus ; that the nations should profess faith as visible members , when it should be , shall be true believers as abraham was , and would justifie the nations , by whereof some should be actually justified , whereas the text mentions no other then should be justified ; and v. . terms them , they that are of the faith , who are blessed with faithfull abraham , and onely meant by the nations , v. . mr. cr. tels me , . that i injuriously mis-report his allegation , as that he urged this argument drawn from gal. . . to prove that abrahams natural seed were promised to be in covenant under the gospel , whereas he urged it to prove the covenant gen. . . to have been a gospel covenant made with abraham and his seed , that is proprofessors and believers , whether carnally descended from him or no. but sure he that reads his first argument in his sermon p. , . and his defence p. . where his words are , the minor i prove from gen. . . where the infants of believing parents are implied , it being a covenant not only established with abraham , but with his seed after him in their generat●ons for an everlasting covenant , by vertue of which isaac and all succeeding male infants were circumcised ; now sure these were abrahams natural seed , and here the covenant is everlasting , and therefore according to mr. crs. reasoning to extend to the end of the world , and the infants of believing parents , who are their natural seed , are , he saith , implied ; which can be no otherwise then as abraham is imagined to be taken for each believer , and the believers natural seed proportionably correspondent to abrahams natural seed , by prerogative of birth , as he there speaks , and then adds . in gal. . . there is implied abrahams seed , in that it was a gospel covenant , and that in him all nations shall be blessed , and is directly for me , for it asserts the covenant , and in that justification to the believing gentiles , not onely from abraham● promise , but also a promise to them and their seed ; which plainly shews that he imagines gal. . . the gospel covenant , to be a promise to believers and their seed who are their natural seed , as in abraham his seed is implied , which conformably must be his natural . and if mr. cr. did not in the dispute mean abrahams natural seed he went from the point to be proved , and by me denied , that the covenant gen. . . was not simply everlasting to the natural seed of abraham , sith they were dispossessed of canaan . his suggestions therefore of my using officious untruths and pious frauds , are but the venome of his spirit which throughout his book he discovers , and most pestilently in that section , for which the lord rebuke him . what he next saith , that when i say the thing promised gal. . . was justification , and that of the heathen and that through faith , therefore this text proves not abrahams natural seed in covenant under the gospel , is , as if all this might not be , and yet some of the natural seed of abraham be in covenant under the gospel , who professed , were justified and had faith as well as the heathen ; which i grant ; but then they were not onely abrahams natural seed but also his spiritual , to which i grant the covenant is made gen. . . and is everlasting , and if he can prove infants of believers to be such , there 's no question but they are in covenant under the gospel and to be baptized , till then he can never prove either from gen. . . or gal. . . that abrahams natural seed , much less infants of believing parents to be in the gospel covenant , which whether hee had reason to bee ashamed of attempting the reader may judge . that the entring into covenant , deut. . , . was a tran●●unt fact and not a thing perpetually binding , i had thought none would deny ; nor argue as mr. crag doth , it was by command , deut. . . they wer● v. . to do the words of the law , and that was a command , and the revealed things belong to them and their children for ever , therefore the entring into covenant v. , . was a command perpetually binding under the gospel , which is too frivolous to spend time in answering , and his argument , that if wives and servants were in covenant under the gospel much more infants , is alike frivolous , ●ith he himself makes no other then believing wives and servants in covenant under the gospel , which when he proves of infants their being in covenant will not be denied . this is enough in answer to that section and most of the th . and th . sections of the third part . i said his allegation is vain of heb. . . to prove that if infants were in covenant under the law they are in covenant under the gospel , whereas the meliority of the covenant is not placed in the extent to the sort of persons ; he asks me , what then ? will it follow , if a covenant was made to no more then before , therefore not to all that were before ? answ. no , yet it will follow that the text is vainly alledged to prove the co-extension to persons , that speaks not at all of that thing , nor is it at all to the purpose , that it is extended to more , to wit to gentiles . for . however that text speaks not of it . . it is extended to more nations of the world besides the jews , but to none but believers of those nations , and consequently not to infants of believing parents as such . that the new covenant contains promises of better things then the old covenant , and differs more then in administrations , is shewed before sect. . and yet the●e is no such thing implied as if there were salvation in any other then jesus christ , unless he could prove salvation were by the promises of the law. my third paradox ( as he cals it ) that the promises of the gospel are not to any other then the elect and true believers , is proved before sect. . that there are in the gospel covenant promises of external ordinances made to all visible members , is more then mr. cr. proves or any other , and therefore i count it a figment , i know none but spiritual promises in it , which mr. cr. grants are made absolutely and terminated or performed onely to the elect and invisible members , which is the same with my paradox , but hath more assertors then his most gross speech , that the meliority of the covenant consists principally in outward ordinances , manner of administration and dispensation , extent and amplitude of the proposal , not of grace and glory . he adds , of which there was alwayes the same reason ; enoch , abraham , eliah , moses , were as well justified by faith , which is true , but not according to the covenant of the law , but by the covenant of the gospel , which it seems mr. cr. understands not , though he assume the title of a preacher of the gospel . mr. cr. saith of me , his last assertion is , that because the promises of the gospel are not to any other then the elect , and true believers , therefore they are not to infants as the natural seed of believers : the antecedent is proved to be false , for though the spiritual part of gospel promises is absolutely performed and terminated to the elect , yet they are conditionally proposed to all professors ; and the external part , which consists in administration of ordinances , is equally belonging to all visible members . but are the promises to all professors because they are conditionally proposed to them ? if so , we may say the promises are to the most obstinate infidels , to eve●y man in the world , for to them they are conditionally proposed . sure this is not according to the doctrine of the scripture which makes the promises to bee the believers inheritance , cor. . . pet. . . gal. . . & . . heb . , . according to the doctrine of protestan●s , the saints legacy , yea paedobaptists make them their priviledge , rom. . . though the promises there were other promises . as for an external part of gospel promises , which consists in administration of ordinances equally belonging to all visible members , it is a mere figment no where in scripture ; and the sayings of mr. cr. part. . sect. . p. . [ christ is said heb. . . to be a mediator of a better covenant , which could no● be , if infants , that were in covenant , under the law , were out of covenant under the gospel , and is grounded upon this impregnable rock , which the anabaptists will never overthrow , that to be circumcised or baptized is all one as to be in visible covenant : that the reason of baptizing or circumcising a person is their birth right , tuition , self-profession , whereby they are visibly admitted into covenant , that what he hath said examen part . . sect . . antipaed . part . . sect . . touches not the true state of the controversie , but is a confused maze intricated with his fallaciâ decumanâ , or master fallacy of gods making , whereas he should say , completing his covenant onely with the elect , heb. . . the new covenant is a better covenant not onely positively , because it is established upon better promises in circumstantials , but also because it is extended to move all nations ; negatively would not be better , if any sexe , age , degree were excluded ] contain such a heap of mistakes and untruths as is not elsewhere usually found in the most heedless scribler . for ● . if the first speech were true , then unless we grant infants to be baptized , which is in his language , to be in covenant , either the new covenant shall not be better then the old , or christ not mediatour of it , which is as much as to say , if infants who were circumcised under the law be not baptized under the gospel then the promises of the spirit , justification , gods writing his laws in the heart , teaching , forgiving sins cannot be better then the promises of the law , which assure righteousness and life to the keepers of the law , or christ cannot be mediatour of the new covanant , which if it be not a more monstrous conceit and to be more abhorred by christians then ever any popish conceit of the necessity of baptism to infants to prevent exclusion out of heaven , for which austin is by mr. cr. himself reckoned the hard father of infants , i know nothing . sure all that doubt of infant baptism , must by this reason either doubt whether it were not as good to be under the law as under the gospel , or whether christ be a better mediatour then moses . . it is a monstrous boldness in him to tell us of a visible covenant of so great necessity , and never tell us distinctly what it contains , nor where it is to be found , especially when not onely my self , but his oracle mr. baxter , hath written so much against it , as hee hath done in his apology against mr. blake . . it is alike confidence in his own conceits , to tell us , that it is an impregnable rock which the anabaptists will never overthrow , that to be circumcised or baptised is all one as to be in visible covenant , and yet shew us none that useth such language but himself . how doth hee think i or any other should answer his arguments , which are vented in such gibberish as no dictionary or author , or use makes intelligible ? is not his own first agument in his sermon here pag. . those ( meaning under the gospel ) that are in covenant with god ( meaning outward and visible , which according to him is all one as to be baptized ) ought to have the seal of the covenant which is baptism , but infants of believing parents are in the covenant with god ( that is in his language in the outward covenant which is all one as to bee baptized ) therefore they ought to have the seal of the covenant , which is baptism . in which he plainly makes . baptism the covenant , and yet the seal of it . . he argues in this manner , infants are baptized therefore they are baptized , which either merely an inept tautology , such as boyes in schools would hiss at in a freshman , or else it infers from baptism already done baptism to bee done , which paedobaptists call anabaptism , and so mr. cr. is turned an anabaptist . . hee tels us , this is an impr●gnable rock which the anabaptists will never bee able to overthrow ( though it be a castle in the air built by his imagination and will of it self vanish ) that the reason of baptizing a person is his birth right , tuition , which proceeds onely on that conceit as if there were the same reason of baptizing as of circumcising , which is oft before shewed to bee false . . if his words [ whereby they are visibly admitted into covenant ] bee referred to the outward covenant and baptizing , then the sense is anabaptistical , by baptizing they are admitted to baptism , i● to [ birthright , tuition ] and admission bee meant as mr. baxter in his book of baptism page . then the sense is , by birth right persons are baptized and so they baptize themselves and need no other baptism besides birth right . . hee corrects me for saying god makes , when i should say completes , as if the translators of heb. . . were mistaken , or gods making his covenant were not his completing it , or he did not complete the covenant hee made . but this exception of mr. crag shews either his ossitancy or unskilfulness ; sith it is the same word in jerem. . , , . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to strike , rendered in the greek lxx by the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so heb. . . & . . which is as much as to dispose or put , and heb. . . by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i made although it be v. . rendred by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i will complete , so that this exception is but nodus in scirpo , out of a cavelling vein . . he saith , i do not touch the true state of the controversie exam. par . . sect . . antipaed . part . . sect . . though it be the very hinge of it , unless they mean no otherwise by being in covenant then baptism , and then i must confess there is no controversie about the consequence of mr. ms. argument infants are in covenant , that is to be baptized , therefore they are to be baptized , but the argument to be derided as nugatory , as indeed it is . . he terms my dispute there a confused maze intricated , which either his ignorance or impudence prompted him to do , sure he shews no confusedness in it . . he calls my proposition of gods making his covenant onely with the elect or spiritual seed , my master fallacy , and yet it is proved from scripture before , and acknowledged by protestants , yea mr. cr. himself to be true . . he takes on him to foretell no satisfaction to be expected from the third part of my review before hee sees it . . he saith heb. . . the new covenant is a better covenant , because it is established on better promises in circumstantials and extended to move all nations , which are not in the text . . h● saith , it would not bee better if any sexe age or degree were excluded , which being meant of the outward covenant , it were as if he said , the new covenant were not better then the old if an infant of a day old were excluded baptism . hee tels mee pag. . his consequent is also unsound , for the internal and spiritual part may be made intentionally to infants as the spiritual seed of believers , and yet the external part and that of ordinances to infants as the natural seed of believers , as well under the gospel as under the law ; in which passage the phrase spiritual seed of believers is a new notion , intimating that believing fathers beget them spiritual , contrary to john . . and that there is in the gospel promises a part which is of ordinances , which is a figment , and that belongs to the natural seed of believers which is fal●e , and that my consequent is unsound for that reason , which if it were good the consequent is sound nevertheless . what hee adds , if the external part under the gospel belong not to infants , the gospel and that made with abraham are two distinct covenants and essentially different , and that made with abraham and his seed carnal , as the carnal anabaptists affirm , their portion no better , then turks they made ( as calvin observs ) as beasts , whereas the covenant gen. . . is everlasting ] is true thus far , that the covenant gen. . . so farre as it did assure righteousness to abrahams spiritual seed by faith was the gospel covenant the same with ours , made in christ and everlasting , but this is nothing to prove that there was such an external part of outward ordinances belonging to infants in that covenant . but that covenant is mixt , mr. cr. himself saith , there was a promise of canaan and temporal blessings in it though in the main the covenant were spiritual , and that part belonged to the israelites by nature onely , not to our children at all . so that mr. crags terms of carnal and gross put upon us , and calvins observation are but reproaches and calumnies by mr. cr. and other paedobaptists , devised and used by them wickedly to make us odious : but in time their wickedness will return on their own head . sect. . mr. crs. speeches of infants sad condition without baptism , are like the popish talk of the necessity of baptizing infants that they may enter into gods kingdome . by denying their baptism we deprive them not of gods covenant . the priviledges rom. . . & . . were peculiar to the jews ; did he write with heed , he would not say they belong to infants of gentiles under the gospel . when i say baptism is not an ordinary meanes of salvation without faith , i mean that no ones baptism but the baptism of true believers is an ordinary meanes of salvation , which is true , though there may be true baptism without true saving faith if it be professed . his talk of preaching to infants by presenting objectively the benefit of that which is preached without manifesting to the understanding , is another of his wild conceits . it 's no contradiction to say infants are not saved by ordinary meanes , to wit , preaching the word , &c. and yet to say they are saved by election , redemption , the work of gods spirit , sith by ordinary means i understand and so do others , the word and sacraments and christian discipline . it is false he saith of me p. . that i confess if i knew infants were elected i would baptize them , or that here i acknowledge of the species or sort of believers infants , that they are not onely elected of god but redeemed of christ and have the work of his spirit . sect. . the major of his syllogism [ that which was proposed and entertained with success amongst the jews , which were the natural seed of abraham , was not onely made with the spiritual seed of abraham ] p. . is denied , he is grossely mistaken in conceiving believing jews were not abrahams spiritual seed : and his arguing that many of the natural seed of abraham were believers under the gospel , rom. . , . to prove it confirms the contrary . for all that are true believers ( not every professour of faith ) or elect are abrahams spiritual seed , and this i often expressed plainly , and mr. cr. knew well enough ; but says i speak ambiguously , that he may have some colour for his random roving talk of persons in visible covenant being children of the promise and abrahams seed , which is much of it non-sense , unproved dictates , and quite beside the meaning of the texts rom. . , , . & . . which make none abrahams seed , and children of the promise gen. . as it was evangelical , but true believers or elect persons , as is amply before proved sect. , . the rest of his scribling in that section runs on these two mistakes , . that there is now under the gospel a national church as the jews was , and that the expression ephes. . . may be applied to this whole nation . . that there is such an outward visible covenant which god hath made with such a whole visible national church , which is not proved from deut. , , . joh. . . psal. . . joh. . . two of which speak not at all of the gospel covenant , nor of gods making a covenant with them , but of theirs with god , the d . is expresly meant onely of true believers , the th . of being a branch in christ ( which it's true may be meant of a visible professour ) but not of being in the gospel covenant of grace , in which none any where are said to be , nor is god said any where to make it to any but true believers or elect persons , as is proved sect. . there is not any thing sect. . that i need reply to , saving that he grants that the gospel covenant of grace heb. . , , . is made onely to the elect , if by the covenant i mean the end , event and success thereof , which i confess i do , and acknowledge that i abhor any conceit to the contrary , as if god should make a covenant to any , which should not have the end event and success answerable to his promise , and therefore this covenant promising things , which none in the event have but the elect , can bee said to be made by god to none but them , unless we will charge god with falshood , mutability or impotency . sect. . that isa. . . . is a prophesie of the reducing the jews from babylonish captivity is evinced from v. , , . in that the description of the places wast and desolate , the land of their destruction , the place which was too strait are meant of the land of canaan , and mr. cr. himself thus v. . the place is too strait for me , that is the land of canaan is too narrow to contain the whole church , and he himself expounds after , thou hast lost the other , v. . of the natural seed of abraham , and the being desolate , a captive , and removing too and fro off jerusalem : but he will have it meant of the time after the destruction by titus , and the dispersion after it , for we never find it verified literally that the land of canaan was too strait during the time of captivity ( as the words point ) to contain the jews . but where do the words point that the land of canaan was too strait during the time of captivity to contain the jewes . the words point at the multitude of jews after the return from the babylonish captivity , at which time according to zechariah his prophesie , ch . . , , , , , , . the jews mightily encreased and prospered , and the place desolate confessedly being meant of canaan and jerusalem , and the jewes the captives , the sense of v. , . is meant undoubtedly ( in the first sense of the words ) of the jews reduction from captivity , which was not true of them after the destruction by titus , therefore of their return from babylon by cyrus , and other persian and grecian kings and queens favour . the like may be inferred from v. , . for therein i● foretold that they which were taken captive ( who were the jews ) should be delivered . but mr. cr. saith , that one democritus would not be enough to laugh at , nor three anticyra's suffice to purge that head , that would attempt from hence to draw an argument to prove the fore-going conclusion : the words are these , even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away ; from whom ? from cyrus , arta●●rxes , darius , ab●su●rus ? that would imply a contradiction , for he confesses that these were nursing fathers that did bring back the jews from captivity ; the prey of the terrible shall be delivered , children are not preys to their nurses , nor are their nurses terrible to their children . ) but we need not make the mighty and terrible the ●ame with the deliverers or nurses . the chaldean princes were the mighty and terrible to whom the jews were captives and a prey , and cyrus and others after deliverers and nurses . yet did we make them the same persons there were nothing ridiculous in it , sith the jews were at first their captives , and prey , and they terrible to them , and yet not long after deliverers and nurses . so that we may retort mr. crs. words thus ; one democritus ( except such a scoffer as mr. cr. ) would not bee enough to laugh at , nor three anticyra's suffice to purge that craig that makes such a silly refutation . what he adds to disparage mr. gattakers notes may be dispelled by reading the notes , nor is he alone in the sense hee gives , grotius in his annot . agrees in that thing with mr. gattaker . and for the contents of the chapter though there is not sufficient reason to ascribe them to the church of england , they being made by one translator though allowed by others without any canon , or act of parliament establishing them , yet i see not that they make against my sense , but the making the content of v. . to be the powerful deliverance out of captivity , did in the dispute and doth still seem to make for my sense of delivery or returning of the ●ews out of the babylonish captivity , which being derided by mr. crs. party shewed the levity of their spirits , to whom this book shews him to be too like . which is seen in his alleging my words ( not p. . as he cites them but p. . ) against my reason ; which he makes my interpretation , though if hee had added my words [ and if so ] it would have appeared that i spake not those words as my interpretation . and for his allegation of gods saying to moses thy children which thou hast brought out of egypt , i remember not where it is used ; but [ thy people exod. ● . . ] and for mr. crs. reconciliation , i do not conceive it may be congruously to speech so paraphrased , the gentiles shall bring thy sons , that is the churches by spiritual succession , the gentiles by natural generation , gods that is mine by adoption . it may be accommodated mystically to the conversion of the gentiles as shadowed out by the reducing of the jews from captivity , and yet make nothing for infants churchmembership or baptism . for though i yeeld in the litteral sense infants to be comprehended , yet in the mystical sense humble persons , or mean contemptible persons , or new born babes , this is believers desiring the word , may be meant . if the words be mystically meant , yet the words are not a prophesie of a prophesie , but as many speeches are which have a double meaning , as gen. . . & . , . exod. . . one more open , the other covert . and mr. crags purpose from isai. . . were not to prove it foretold that infants under the gospel should be brought to baptism , but to prove the propositton in question , that god foretold that infants should be churchmembers under the gospel , whence infant baptism will follow ; it seems mr. cr. understands not the bringing of children in arms and upon shoulders of bringing infants to baptism , and how else in a litteral sense they by bringing in armes and on shoulders become churchmembers i yet understand not , and am out of hope ever to do . sect. . mr. cr. speaks thus . he says ( meaning me ) if by standard be meant baptism , which the scripture never cals gods standard , and the bringing should be to baptism , then the sense should be , that supream magistrates , as kings and queens , should bring infants in their armes , and carry them on shoulders to baptism , which no story mentions to have been done , and is too frivolous to be made the matter of that prophesie , in which words there is neither veri●y , nor consequence if sense . first hee says , if by standard bee meant baptism , who makes a thesis of his hypothesis ? or affirms that by standard is meant baptism ? to which i reply , mr. cr. of whom the relatour of the dispute p. . saith , that to give me satisfaction ( which he needed not ) he told me , that by standard he understood some visible gospel ordinance , as baptism , without an &c. to wit , preaching , praying , with many more ; nor had i any reason to conceive he understood any other sith he named no other , nor did he say gospel ordinances , as if he included the genus ( as now he would evade ) but some gospel ordinance in the singular number . now i said baptism is no where called gods standard , and he hath nothing to reply hereto , but that it is so in this place , the genus being predicated on the species . but this i● but a begging of what he should prove , that by standard here is ●eant baptism in pa●ticular or gospel ordinances in general . sure the phrase of setting up the standard is very unsutable to the use of baptizing , which was not by setting up , but putting down into the water . and if mr. crs. words or the text do not necessarily speak of kings and queens bringing in their arms and on their shoulders to baptism , my reasons are the same , and of a like force , if meant of the people . for no story doth mention carrying infants on shoulders to baptism by the people , and such a thing is too frivolous to be made the matter of this prophesie , which expresseth some great and wonderfull thing to be done by gods extraordinary incitement and power , of which kinde that is not . though mr. cr. grant the phrase of nursing fathers and mothers isa. . . to be metaphorical , yet he applies the words before ( which are alike m●taphorical ) [ they shall bring thy sons in their armes or bosome , and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders , v. . ] according to the proper sense of the words , when he saith , the people should bring sons in their arms and daughters upon their shoulders to baptism , now if the words v. . be metaphorical so are those v. . which is also acknowledged by mr. cr. in that he grants that in story it is not found that infants have been brought to baptism on sho●lders . . in that they are said to be brought to the standard , which is according to mr. cr. baptism , but that is not a standard properly but metaphorically , and therefore it follows upon mr. crs grant , that the application of that one phrase of bringing their sons in their arms and daughters on shoulders , according to the proper sense of the words is not right . nor is his endeavour to fit the metaphor to infant baptism any better , though in the low countries it were true that the eldest son of a commission captain being born there whilest his father is in the service of the state , is by the courtesie of the camp enrolled in the souldiers list on his birth-day , and by the allowance of the state receives pay from the time of his nativity , as he scribbles out of fullers frivolous treatise termed infants advocate p. . for . if infants be listed , yet no standard is set up , or hand lifted up to the people to bring them , nor are they brought in their arms or bosoms in the low countries . . nor was any such usage among the jews or gentiles in isaiahs time , to whi●h he might bee conceived to allude , and it is too ridiculous to go about ( as mr. cr. doth ) to explain a metaphor alluding to an use in isaiahs time by an use no where shewed to be but in the low countries in our time . that mr. gataker in the cause of infant baptism interprets innumerable places against me , ●s an untruth ▪ though esther were a ●ew , yet a queen of the gentiles , and ●●ese things foretold isa . , . were fulfilled in cyrus time , and i● ahasuerus , artaxerxes and darius time also , yea and a●ter t●em in alexander the great , and some of his successors , and their queens as grotius conceives , in his annotations , who also and mr. gataker shew how the prediction of bowing down and licking the dust of the jews feet was fulfilled , though not in esthers time ( as i said the prophesie of queens being a nursing mother to the jews was ) yet in the times after afore christs incarnation . and for mr. crs. argument from v. , , , , , . let him form it as strong as he can , yet he will never prove that isa. ● . . is a prophesie of infants visible churchmembership in the times of the gospel or their bringing to baptism , nor was i by any argument of mr. cr. forced to surrender up this hold , that isa. . , . is a prophesie of the return of the jewes from the babylonish captivity , and their prosperity in judea after their return a●ore christs inearnation , and yet were it understood of the times of the gospel , i shewed how it might be understood of grown men perswaded by the preaching of the gospel , as junius in his annotations , which mr. cr. abusively puts into an argument as if it were alledged thus , junius says so th●re●ore it is so , and denies the antecedent and conse●uent . but neither was the consequent mine , nor the antecedent as mr. cr. sets it down . but this janius saith , that the standard isa. . . is the gospel , which is the power of god unto salvation to every one that believeth , rom. . . and therefore it is meant of perswading grown men by the preaching of the gospel , and that all those things are allegorically spoken of the amplitude of christs spiritual kingdome , and therefore not of bringing infants to baptism and for cornelius a lapide , hierome , cyril ▪ haymo , if they held it fulfilled in gospel times , and extended the words to grown men , though they were for infants visible churchmembership and baptism , yet they overthrow mr. crs. argument from thence , which is of no force unless the words be understood onely of gospel times , and of infants being brought to some visible ordinance as baptism , the contrary whereof his own authors shew , and himself grants , and therefore i take all mr. crs. reasoning in the dispute and this reply from isa. . . to be me●r cavilling , and still think it meet to refer the reader for the discerning of my interpretation whether right or no , and my yeelding that the words may be accommodated to the calling of the gentiles without any oppositeness to my interpretation , or appositeness to mr. crs. inference whether true or not to mr. gatakers annotations , which for no other reason but because ( however otherwise he differ from me ) i take to be the exactest , and the most incomparable learned on that part of scripture of any i know . to mr. crs. defence sect. . of his alleging thus isa. . there shall be no more an infant of dayes , that is infants shall no● be uncapable of the seal , against my answer impliedly deny●ng the consequence , and saying it hath no proof but his dictate , which is thus . to which it were sufficient reply to say it hath no disproof , but his dictate , which is without all shew of prohability , there being not a word of any such thing as o●tward peace , increase , possession , and long life to the jews , unless in the type a●d that scarce probable , but of the glorious estate of the times of the gospel held out in outward ordinances as shall appear . i oppose . that i needed bring no other disproof , but denial being a respondent , but it is necessary hee should make good his sense if hee will inferre his conclusion thence . . my disproof was right : for v. ; ● . speaks of the outward peace of jerusalem and her people , their long life , increase , building ▪ planting , possession ▪ opposite to their former troubles v. . are expressed v. . , , . not a word of outward ordinances . against this saith mr. cr. and in isa. . . there is need of such an interpretation , for as v. . the new heaven● and new earth , and , . creation , and jerus●lem were analogical , and not proper , so the . v. is wholly trop●cal and mystical . there shall be no more thence an infant of days ; how can thi● be understood litterally ? did not infants after as well , as un●er the captivity make up their weeke of dayes , months of weeks ? &c. it must needs relate to some thing under the jewish paedagogy , and nothing so probably as that of theirs , that nothing was clean till a sabbath had gone over it , and therefore according to divine institution circumcision was not ti●l the th ▪ day , mr. t. might have done well to have imparted us either his own or mr. gatakers descant on these word● , but because they could devise nothing that like the ears under the lions skin would not discover the who●e imposture , ne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quidem . answ. that jerusalem is analogical is not proved , nor doth it follow v. . is tropical , therefore also v. . any more then isa. , , . is allegorical , therefore also v. , , , , . mr. gatakers sense is plainly ●et down without any imposture in his annotations , which is this , there shall be no more thence brought to burial by reason of untimely ends , as formerly a child that hath not fulfilled hi● dayes , but shall live and attain to his just growth and full 〈◊〉 o● years . ] this sense is no● infringed by any thing mr. cr. sa●th , yea his question , did not infants &c. ●onfirms it . that it must needs relate to 〈◊〉 under the jewish paedagogy , is not proved , nor that the conceit nothing was clean till a sabbath was gone over it , was of the j●wish paedagogy , nor that it was the reason of circumcising the th . day , nor do i see what hi● , if it were granted , makes for his sense , there shall be no more an infant of dayes , that is infants shall not be uncapable of the seal while their age is measured by dayes , as the jews infants that might not be circumcised till a week had passed over them . for there is neither mention of seal nor in capacity of it , nor of circumcision , nor its limiting to the th . day , and mr. cr. leaves out [ thence ] that is from jerusalem , which shews it 's meant of infants there being , and so not of gentiles infants , and the prediction is of an event of great moment , not of a capacity of a thing which might never be in the event , and if it were is of small or no importance , nor is [ an infant of dayes ] well paraphrased by [ while their age is measured by dayes ] for an infant of dayes , is all one in regard of dayes an infant , or child as the opposite term on old man shews , and his expression is either non-sense , or else it is vain to suppose that a person is an infant while his age is measured by dayes , for a person of many years hath his age measured by dayes , and if the meaning be , an infant that hath his age measured by dayes , not by one day or some hours is capable of the seal , then it should imply that an infant of one day old is not . i am blamable for spending time in r●futing such fooleries , but the intolerable insolent brags of mr. crags dispute and scribling necessitates me . mr. cr. from isa . . argued thus , the childe shall die an hundred years old , or as well a churchmember as i● hee were an hundred years old , therefore children may bee bapt●zed under the gospel , and here p. . of me he saith , he denied the consequent which i made good first ab impossibili , because to take it literally would imply a contradiction . for it is impossible being a childe to die a hundred years old , childe is the subject of the question , which is to be taken properly without enallage , shall die an hundred years old , the predicate that cannot otherwise be affirmed of it but analogically resembling in s●me capacity and qualification them that dies an hundred yeares old . answ. this arguing is indeed childish like , as if it were argued luk. . . thou c●ilde shalt bee called the prophet of the highest , for thou shalt go before the face of the lord to prepare his wayes , to give knowledge of salvation ; ergo , this must bee understood analogically , childe is the subject of the question , which is to be taken properly without enallage ; and so this must be true of john baptist while hee was a childe . the like might bee said of luk. ● . . king . . he is but a childe that knowes not that in such passages as these there 's no need of imagining an analogical predication , but that they are to be understood sensu diviso , as when our lord christ saith luke . . the blinde see , the ●ame walk , the lepers are cleansed , the deaf hear , the dead are raised , that is , such as were blinde , lame , lepers , deaf , dead , not in sensu composito , such as are when they see , walk , are cleansed , hear are raised , so in the other place , not he that is a childe while he is a childe , but he that is now , or shall be once a child shall afore he dies be an hundred years old , which agrees with the rest of the verse , and v. . hands●hey ●hey being expressions of long life . and m. gataker 〈◊〉 rightly , the syntax is familiar , and as clear as the day light or sunshine : the childe or 〈◊〉 that now is ) shall die the son of years ; that is , shall be years old when he dieth . so gen. . . gen. . , &c. to which mr cr. insolently ●eplies , i had thought syntax had been gramatical construction according to rule , not literal interpretation , or univocal not analogical praedication . i say for master gataker that hee may think still that syntax is grammatical construction according to rule , not literal interpretation , mr. gataker saith nothing to the contrary ; yet literal interpretation is to be according to the rule of grammatical construction ; he may think syntax is neither univocal nor annalogical praedication , there may be syntax in imperfect speeches that are no enunciations , nor in them any predication of one thing on another , mr. cr. hath been a paed●gogue long enough to know , that which his school-boyes might tell him , there 's syntax between a noun adjective and substantive , a noun and a preposition , or interjection , where there is no predication . he adds of mr. gataker , and this syntax he says , it as clear as the day light , or sun shine , perhaps to an owle or bat. answ. yea , and too to as seeing men as mr. cr. though his eagle-eye be in this as dark as an owle or bat at noon . he goes on , and what is this syntax that is so clear ? the child or youth t●at now is , shall die the son of an hundred years , that is , shall be an hundred years old when he dieth ; the child or youth , there is one addition , for the text mentions not youth , which is a distinct age from childhood . answ. it may be an addition to the english translation , but not to the text , sith as mr. gataker shews the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is applied to joseph at years old , gen. . . to benjamin , gen. . . when he is deemed to have been above thirty but that 's the ill luck of it , that then it will not serve mr. crs. turn for his infant churchmembership visible in the time of the gospel mr. cr. adds , that now is , there is another , the child was not yet , it was a prediction ▪ answ. so it might be , and yet the child one that then was when isaiah spake it ; nor is it any more addition to the text then if he had said , the child that shall be ; nor any untruth in the speech as expounded by mr. gataker . mr. cr. goes on . there is a third [ son of ] by addition put in , old by substraction taken away ; excellent arithmetick ! besides here is a new creation of a new generation [ son of years ] who ever heard such a syntax ? did the son beget the years , or the years the son ? or whether is elder ? that is , shall be an hundred years when he dieth , here is an exposition of an exposition , and a fourth addition [ he and when ] being superadded . answ. it grieves me not so much that mr. cr. hath so much vilified my self , as that though he pretend to be a preacher of the gospel , yet like a terrae filius , or grammer reader , he should shew such contempt of a man then alive when he wrote it ( as i conceive by the date of his epistle ) however whether alive or dead , a man very reverend , and ( however he conceived of me ) one of the most learned and accurate writers ( specially in such things as this ) of his age , and while he slights him discover so much folly and ignorance in hebrew and greek , as an ordinary ●rammarian or student in the bible would hardly have shewed ; certainly it 's unsuitable to his undertaking of a schoolmaster . the phrase 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is word by word the son● 〈◊〉 hundred years , for without [ of ] it would be non-sense , it being the sig●● 〈◊〉 genitive case , nor is [ old ] substracted , but included in that expression , it being the hebrew expression of old or aged , as m. gataker shews from gen. . . & . . & . . & . ● & . . & . . & . . & . , . & . . & . . & . . and elswhere , and the same he might have learned from ainsworth annot. on gen. . ● , &c. hebr. son of . years , that is , going in his . year . an usual speech in the hebrew scripture of mens age or of beasts ; gen. . . exod . . . and for [ he and when ] how can they be said to be superadded , when the very term [ shall die ] is all one with [ when he shall die , ] which shews it is not for mr. crs. purpose , for then it should have been , shall be born as an hundred years old , as well a churchmember as if he were ; but is agreeable to the prophets meaning , to express long life : and therefore his jeer of excellent arithmetick shews his folly in deriding that which was right . and for his prattle , it shews his excellent ignoran●e of the hebrew and greek of the ●ible , bu●torf ▪ thes ▪ gram. hebr. l. . c. . p. , in that piece which is termed by amama , &c. admirandum opus 〈◊〉 , nomen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 filius periphrases & hebraismos facit ins●gnes : ut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 filius areus iob . . id est s●gitta & similes innumeri . sic i●●an . . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. apud latinos horat. . carm . od . . terr● filius , should one scribble as mr. cr. doth here , here 's a new creation of a new generation [ son of the bow , of perdition , of the earth ] who ev●r heard such a syntax ? did the son beget t●e bow , perdition , the earth , or the bow , perdition , the earth the son ? or whether is elder ? would not a scholler say he played the fool ? for this i leave him to mr. vaug●ans correction . but he seems to be more consid●rate in what follows . according to which interpretation , the words must carry this sense , there shall no more infants di● when they are young , nor an old man till he 〈◊〉 filled his days , for he that now is a child shall not die till he be an hundred years old , i wonder in what age this was performed , that no man died till he had compleated his century , no mortal disease , nor use of physitians , but every man might certainl● know the day of his death . answ. the words contain not such an absolute universal longaevity , as mr. cr. would make to be the consequent of our interpretation , but a length of days opposite to former troubles v. . in which so many died by war , famine , and pestilence , which therefore comparatively is reckoned as universal , as in like manner ieremiah ch . . . speaking of the same times saith the iniquity of israel shall be sought for & there shall be none ▪ that is , as formerly to provoke god to cut them off by g●ievous deaths , as before the captivity . and according to this i● that of zech. . . and i said without any vaunting nebuchadnezzar like language , as mr. cr. abusively chargeth me with isa. . . was rightly made by me answerable to zech . which doth not intimate , that the text was made by me , and not by the holy ghost , but made answerable , or correspondent , which arrogates no more to me then if i had said , made clear , made manifest , &c. nor is any experience or history contrary to this , that the iews after their return from babylon 〈◊〉 , prosperity , increase and long life in canaan a great while together , and were honoured by divers persian kings , alexander the great , and some of the ●recian kings , and the nations near them iu●ject to them . the contents of the chapter were never by any synod or parliament interpretatively entitled to the church of england , nor are to be accounted any more valid , then mr. gatakers notes , who though a single man , yet had his notes approved by other annotators , and in some sort by the assembly at westminster . yet the contents of the chapter being v. . the blessed estate of the new ierusalem , and in the margin at v. . revel . . . being put , shew , that mr. crs. conceit is no more favoured by them then mine . and the speech being to be understood comparatively to the former times , was true of the jews after their return from the captivity at babel . v. . exp●essing the jews peace notwithstanding the samaritan neighbours , was true at the same time , although both were accommodated to the gospel times , and the calling of the jews yet to come . nor is it any strange thing in that prophet to make th● restitution of the jews from captivity as answering to making new heavens and earth , as isa. . . & . , , . & . , . yet i deny not that pet . . revel . . . the words are rightly applied to some other great work of god resembled by this and to be yet accomplished . that the israelites cor. . . were actually baptized or washed under the cloud it raining upon them , and in the red sea , the water touching their feet at least , after the dividing of the waves in such a sudden passage , and blowing upon them with th● sprinkling thereof , is no where set down exod . and . n●r will such wetting be ever found in any greek authour to be termed baptism formally , and therefore it can be no other then similitudinary baptism which is there meant , as the eating manna and drinking water was a similitudinary partaking of the lords supper , and grotius did rightly expound [ cor. . . were baptised ] by [ were as if they were baptis●d ] and yet isa. . is not rightly so expounded shall die as an hundred years old , there being no need of such an interpretation , nor any thing leading to it in the text , but the expression is of long life ; nor if it were meant so , i● it proved that infants must be churchmembers , and capable of some seal under the gospel , unless there were no other w●y ▪ then that in respect of which he might be as one an hundred years old . had mr. cr. sought the clearing of truth , he had been willing to read out the whole that his dealing might not be taken for deceitfull . by my refutation of dr. savage in latin , some years since printed , it may appear wh●t●er text , dr. savage or the dr. of the chair did avoid my argument . the rest of m. crs. argumen●s are the same with what others have urged , and have been answered in this and the former parts as this review ; nor do i find that mr. cr. hath added any thing of moment to them , to which i need make further reply . as or his ●●●nts , quips , misrecitals or mistakes of my words , mis-reports of my actions , together with his own mistakes in logick , grammer , divinity , th●y are otherwise discernable then by a particular answer in print to each part of his book . i presume the christian and equal reader will think it unnecessary to make any more reply to what i● written of infant● baptism , till some thing be found written which better defends it then those have done who are here answered . if any other think it fi●● i should answer him also in particula● , he may conceive that if i did p●rceive any thing that might not have an answer in that which is already written , or had in it any difficulty , i should have done it : but being conscious to my fel● that i have not declined the answering of any out of contempt of the person , or sense of the difficulty of doing it , but because it is thought that i have been too large already , and that to answer every meer quirk of wit is unnecessary , as knowing that however light wit● that love to shew their skill in disputing be taken with them , yet solid conscientious men will be led onely with good proofs out of scripture which may shew the institution of christ , i do here supersede from this work and commend it to his blessing , of whom and through whom and for whom are all things , to whom be glory for ever . amen . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e mr. gatakers annot. on jer. . . the former covenant comprehended , together with those spiritual promises , which yet were the principal part of it , many temporal blessings , as the possession of the land of canaan , and multiplicity of issue , and outward prosperity , gen. . , , . & . , , . psal. . . deut. . , . whereas this later runneth wholly upon the spiritual and celestial blessings , rom. . , . & . , . eph. . . heb. . . notes for div a -e see ainsworth annotations on gen. . . notes for div a -e vide gat●k . discept . de vi ▪ & effic . inf . baptism . pag. . a publick dispute betwixt john tombs ... respondent, john cragge, and henry vaughan ... opponents, touching infant-baptism, the fifth of september, ... occasioned by a sermon preached the day before, by mr. tombs, upon st. mark . ... : also a sermon preached by mr. cragge, the next lords day following, upon the same text, wherein the necessity of dipping is refuted, and infant-baptism asserted. tombes, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing t ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a publick dispute betwixt john tombs ... respondent, john cragge, and henry vaughan ... opponents, touching infant-baptism, the fifth of september, ... occasioned by a sermon preached the day before, by mr. tombs, upon st. mark . ... : also a sermon preached by mr. cragge, the next lords day following, upon the same text, wherein the necessity of dipping is refuted, and infant-baptism asserted. tombes, john, ?- . cragge, john, gent. vaughan, henry, sir, ?- ? [ ], p. printed for h. twyford, n. brook, j. place ..., london : . added engraved false t.p. there is some print show-through and some pages are marked; signature a has print faded in filmed copy. beginning-p. photographed from bodleian library copy and inserted at the end. reproduction of original in british library. eng anabaptists -- early works to . infant baptism -- early works to . a r (wing t ). civilwar no a publick dispute betwixt john tombs, b.d. respondent. john cragge, and henry vaughan, m.a. opponents, touching infant-baptism, the fifth of tombes, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the anabaptists anotamized and silenced in a publique dispute the man̄er of the anabaptists dipping their laying on of hands their washing of feete the disputation a publick dispute betwixt john tombs , b. d. respondent . john cragge , and henry vaughan , m. a. opponents , touching infant-baptism , the fifth of september , . in the church of st. maries in abergavenie in monmothshire . occasioned by a sermon preached the day before , by mr. tombs , upon st. mark . . . he that believeth , and is baptized , shall be saved , but he that believeth not , shall be damned . also a sermon preached by mr. cragge , the next lords day following , upon the same text : wherein the necessity of dipping is refuted , and infant-baptism asserted . london , printed for h. twyford , n. brook , j. place , and are to be sold in vine-court middle temple , the angel in cornhill , and at furnivals-inn-gate in holborn . . to his reverend friend , i. t. p. grace , mercy , and peace be multiplyed . sir , i received your letter , full of zeal , and christian piety , the contents whereof may be reduced to these six heads , wherein you desire resolution ; first , what my sense is of the anabaptists ; secondly , when was the spring and rise of them ; thirdly , what is the cause of this present growth , and increase of them ; fourthly , why they are permitted ; fifthly , what i think of disputes and conferences had with them ; sixthly , a true relation of that had with us of late , ( which you say is variously reported ) of all which briefly i 'le endeavour to give satisfaction . for the first , i referr you to the sermon , and conference here following , to the harmonies and confessions of the reformed churches , of all churches since the apostles , especially the western , where you shall find universalitie , antiquity , and succession ( besides many pregnant places of scripture ) pleading for infant-baptism ; and that ( as austin saies ) which the whole church holds , was never begun by any councel , but alwaies observed , cannot otherwise be believed , but that it came from the apostles . for the second , the spring and rise of anabaptism , as all errours , so it had its beginning after truth , the husbandman first sowed good corn , then the enemy tares ; no age was free : in the first hundred years arose the ebionites , chiliasts , and gnosticks ; in the second , the marcionites , valentinians , and montanists ; in the third , the novatians , sabellians , and manichees ; in the fourth , the arrians , donatists , and eunomians ; in the fifth , nestorians , eutychians , and patripassians ; in the sixth , jacobites , armenians , and monothelites ; in which time the mysterie of iniquity began more fully to work , which was first nascent , then crescent , then regnant , then triumphant . and no sooner appeared a reformation in luther's time , but there were herods that sought the life of this babe , dragons watching while the woman was travelling , to devour the child ; amongst whom the anabaptists of germany were most venemous ; the first author whereof was one nicholas stock , then phipher , knipperdoling , munster , with their tayler-king john beccold of leyden , who gave out that he had a commission from heaven to destroy all nations that would not submit to his gospel , and be rebaptized ; raging with sword and persecution , till he was taken , and being examined by exquisite tortures , confessed he received his doctrine from an impure spirit ; there you have the spring and rise of it . now for the third , the present growth , and increase of it , the reasons may be many ; . times of division , wherein the hedge of discipline is broken down ; liberty in religion is like free conversing without restraint , or watch in time of pestilence , one house easily infects a whole city . . satan's malice , like a river , the further it goes , the deeper , and fiercer . . the corruption of man's nature , more inclinable to errour than truth . . the fitness of the engin for devastation , and ruinating all former churches , under colour of first-baptisms nullity , gathering of new ones ( after their own mould ) out of the old ruins , by re-baptizing . . the pretence that children are uncapable of church-membership , or communion of saints , as if there were not the same capacity under the gospel , which was under the law . . false allegation that infant-baptism is occasion of loose living , as if the native jews that were sealed when infants , were more dissolute than the proselytes . . to limit it to ripe years , increases piety , as if jews , and turks , and their own rebaptized converts , were not more frequently guilty of apostasie and hyprocrisie . . not understanding that infants church-membership in the old testament , is not repealed , but confirmed in the new . . a carnal estimation that the covenant made with abraham was partly carnal , of which circumcision is a part , as if godliness in both testaments had not the promise of this life , and of the life to come . that circumcision was the seal of righteousness of faith to abraham , and not his posterity . . that the covenant was made with abraham , and his spiritual seed onely , and not with visible professors . . that there is no such thing as national churches , though christ saies , make disciples of all nations , and isaiah saies , all nations shall flow in , &c. yet ( they say ) all churches must be gathered by actual profession , as well in christian nations , as amongst turks and pagans . . because we have no particular instance in terminis , that any infants were baptized , and because they are not expresly named in the precept , as if generals did not include particulars , as well for infants as old men . . denying equivalencies , and necessary consequences from scripture . . a vilifying of the judgement and persons of all godly and learned men of this present , and former ages , building up their rotten foundations upon their ruins . . temporal interests of the lowest of the people , which while they dream it s countenanced by men in power , cry hosanna to day , and perhaps crucifie to morrow . . a pretending to the spirit of god ; numa pompilius feigned that he conversed with the goddess egeria , minos with jupiter in the cave , solon with the delphian apollo , mahomet with the angel gabriel ; montanus , and the shakers , with the holy ghost ; the white witches , with the spirit in the shape of a dove , and all but to palliate their unfound opinions and practises . let not his soul prosper that does not acknowledge and thirst after the true spirit of god , yet let us try the spirits , and not believe every lying spirit . . the learning , subtilty , and industry , of some anabaptists , to gain proselytes ; arrius , pelagius , marcion , were not wiser in their generation than they , to inveagle the poor simple people , especially women and inferiour tradesemen , which in seven years can scarce learn the mysterie of the lowest profession , think half seven years enough ( gain'd from their worldly imployments ) to understand the mysterie of divinity , and thereupon meddle with controversies , which they have no more capacity to pry into , than a batt to look up into the third heaven . these , and many more , are the causes of the increase of anabaptism . now , for the fourth , you enquire why they are permitted , and their books printed , and published , seeing those of arrius of old , dr. pocklington's , and mr. archer's of late ( more innocent ) were burned ? to satisfie you in this , something is to be imputed to the providence of god , something to the wisdome of the state . the providence of god , who suffers errours , . that truth by opposition may more diligently be searched out . . that the sincerity and constancy of the faithfull may be tryed . . that the impenitent , and proud in spirit , may be blinded and hardned . the wisdome of state , who like wise chirurgions , will not launce a turgid ulcer , till it be ripe ; a skilfull physician , that will not purge some floating humours , till they be setled . therefore the late parliament declared , that they would not have them cudgell'd , but perswaded out of their errours . the two lights of our goshen ( though they differ in judgment from them ) endeavour not to force them , but by sweet insinuations and arguments to win them ; besides , some of them have been esteemed godly , amongst which mr. tombs may be ranked ; who knows but that may be verified of him , that was of cyprian , non videt haec , ut videat meliora , he sees not these things , that he may see better things ? god , it may be , suffers him to fall , with peter , that his rise may be more glorious , tu conversus , confirma fratres , that being converted , he may strengthen his brethren ; will burn his stubble , hay , wood , with the spiritual fire of the word , or affliction , that his gold may be the purer . fifthly , you enquire whether it may be fit to dispute , and conferr with them , seeing their doctrine eats as a canker , for which cause the empress would not suffer her son theodosius to discourse with the heretick eunomius . to which i answer ; the sword of the spirit , which is the word of god , is the onely weapon to wound the hairy scalp of false teachers ; with this , christ confounded the sadduces ; st. peter , simon magus ; athanasius , the arrians ; austin the pelagians , and manichees . there are none that speak against seasonable disputes , but either those that understand them not , or with spiritual pride storm against those that are gifted with that faculty above them , or they that cannot endure that their errours be unmasked , and their soars galled ; camels , conscious of their deformity , trouble the water , foul faces love not the looking-glass . true it is , we ought to receive the weak in faith , not to doubtfull disputations ; but when false teachers have infused poyson , may we not apply an antidote ? when they have sowed darnel , and cockle , may not we weed them out ? this is to set towns and cities on fire , and to deny buckets to quench them ; to suffer invasions , and to permit none to rally together an army to resist them . the disputes at bewdly , hereford , and ross , have been successfull to astonishment ; and in this last at abergavenie ( though tumultuary , and on a sudden ) hath appeared the finger of god ; he that with spittle , and clay , opened the eyes of the blind , overthrew the walls of jericho with the sound of ramms-horns , with these weak means hath wrought strong effects , that no creature may glory in the arm of flesh . to the relation whereof ( in the last place ) and the occasion of it , i come now ; which was thus ; mr. tombs for several months together being importuned by letters and messengers , came at length to water that , which mr , miles , prosser , and others had planted , or ( as some think ) to confirm a child lately baptized in london ; when he entred the pulpit , great expectation was , what mountains would bring forth ; his text was mark . . . whence he concluded , that infant-baptism was a nullity , a mockery ; no baptism but by dipping , or plunging , was lawfull ; all that would be saved must be re-baptized , or baptized after profession ; that there was no such thing as infant-baptism in the primitive times , but that it came in with other corruptions , upon unsound grounds ; and challenged the whole congregation to speak , if they had any thing to say to the contrary . there were many well learned that heard him , especially two , mr. bonner a neighbouring minister , and mr. vaughan schoolmaster of the town , formerly a fellow of jesus college in oxford , who both for the present kept silence , onely mr. bonner closed with him in the way to his lodging , and told him , that he had delivered some things contrary to that he had read in the antients , and other things that grieved his spirit to hear , and desired therefore to conferr with him thereabout the next morning : he slighted the grave old gentleman , with as much contempt , as austin the monk did the british commissioners at bangor , yet told him , that he would tarry in the town till such an hour ; in the mean time , the greatest part of the people were offended , stagger'd , or scrupled , some not knowing what to think of their own , their children , and their ancestours salvation . the anabaptists that night , and especially the next morning , triumphed , saying , where are your champions now ? some of them are struck dumb , others dare not shew their faces , whil'st master tombs is in the town , naming mr. cragge , another neighbouring minister ; the report whereof being brought unto him , he repaired instantly to the town , and meeting with mr. bonner ; and mr. vaughan , they went all together to mr. tombs , where he was at a private house ; little was said there , by reason of the throng of people pressing in ; but it was agreed upon , that they should meet in the church , or publick meeting place , at one a clock , which was done accordingly ; mr: tombs took the pulpit , the opponents a seat over against it : mr. bonner was preparing to give the on●et , but a gentleman disswaded him , by reason of his age , and bodily infirmities , lest it should impair his health ; mr. vaughan began , mr. cragge succeeded , continuing the opposition betwixt them for almost five hours . when the dispute was ended , mr. cragge was desired by many godly persons to preach upon the same text mr. tombs had done , the lords day following , which he did accordingly ; i send you here enclosed the sum of all ; a copy of mr. vaughan's conference , which a friend procured me from his own hand , mr. cragge's sermon and dispute , i took from his own mouth by short-writing ; you have the disputations first , then the sermon ; the lord bless them to you , and you to his glory , which shall be the prayer of him , who is yours to serve you in the lord jesus , j. w. to the reader . courteous reader , to please my self , and perhaps thee , i shall displease many ; first , my friend , for making his private token a publick frolick . secondly , mr. tombs , for bringing him in this last catastrophe wounded in the heel by troilus and paris , who vaunts that in former scenes , ( like achilles , so far as he was dipped in the river by his mother thetis ) he hath been unpierced by the weapons of the stoutest hectors . thirdly , mr. cragge , and mr. vaughan , for exposing their disputes , conceived in an hour and an half , and the sermon contrived in a day and a half , to long censure . fourthly , the anabaptists ( as they will deem ) for too uncourteously galling their soars . fiftly , their adversaries the paedobaptists , for too courteously , or ( as they will fancy ) partially concealing mr. tombs harsh language , and his favourites incivilities . sixtly , the learned in general , for bringing these nilus-like hatched births in a moment into the open amphitheater with those elephants that have been ten years in conception . my apologie for the whole is as followeth ; the bulk of this manual is small , some may reach to the price of it , that cannot of those larger volumes ; may have time to read it , that cannot them . the method of this is facile , the language plain , some will understand this , that cannot them . besides , we naturally love the transactions of those , whose persons we know ; some heard them transiently as they were delivered , and would be glad deliberately to read them ; some heard them not , but at the second hand , as they were variously reported ( according to the judgement and affection of the relator ) who would be willing to know the business truly stated . if any of the parties cencerned find themselves aggrieved , and intend to bend their stile against me , i 'le answer them at the day of judgement , when the secrets of all hearts shall be disclosed : in the mean time , if truth may be advanced , errour discouraged , godliness countenanced , hypocrisie unmasked , thou edified , god glorified , i have mine ends . farewell . yours in the lord , i. t. p. a relation of a conference had between mr. john tombs b. d. and henry vaghan m. a. in st. maries church in abergevennie , sept. . . touching infants baptism , briefly , and punctually set down to the sense of both . v. infants may lawfully be baptized ; for they may be admitted into the covenant of grace now by baptism , as they were before , and under the law , admitted into the same covenant by circumcision . t. i deny your consequence . v. you must deny it , either because the covenant of grace made with abraham , and his seed , is not the same in substance with that which is now actually in force with beleevers , and their children , or secondly , because baptism succeedeth not in the room of circumcision . t. i could deny your division : yet i say , to gratifie you , for both those reasons . v. for the former . that the covenant made with abraham , and his seed , is the same which is now actually in force with beleevers , appears by comparing genes . . . with galat. . . where it is clearly set forth , that the promise made to abraham , came unto the gentiles through jesus christ . t. here he distinguisheth of a towfold seed of abraham , the naturall , and spirituall , and saith , that the covenant was made with abrahams spirituall seed , and not the naturall . v. even all the children of abraham were circumcised , and consequently admitted into the covenant , not one excepted ; for every man-child was to be circumcised , gen. . . it appears by what hapned to moses for not circumcising his child , exod. . . even ishmael was circumcised , genes . . : who belonged not to the promise , but was of the naturall seed . t. ishmael , and the naturall children of abraham were admitted to the externall part , namely outward privileges , and temporall blessings , and not to the internall , or spirituall part thereof . by the internall part he must needs mean that part of it expressed gen. . . in these words , to be a god unto thee , and unto thy seed after thee , and in the end of v. . i will be their god . to justifie this his distinction , he referred us to rom. . and i think v. . where the children of the promise are contradistinguished from the children of the flesh , or the naturall children of abraham ; so that the covenant was made not to the naturall children of abraham , but to such of them as were elect , and faithfull . v. this covenant was made alike in the same extent , and latitude , promiscuously with all the seed of abraham ; and those that lost the promise , and the benefit of this covenant ( which men you call the naturall seed ) lost it not because they were not at first comprehended in the covenant , but because of their own unbeleef , rom. . . i confesse that the children of isaack are , rom. . called the children of the promise , not in regard of any peremtory election , or designation to faith , and salvation , or on the contrary ▪ of any absolute reprobation of the seed of ishmael . for if it had been pauls designe to declare the children of ishmael , yea the greatest part of the jewes , to have been rejected by a certain absolute decree , why should he v. . . so much lament their incredulitie ? wish himself accursed for their sakes , v. . and rom. . v. . desire , and pray for their conversion ? since upon such an absolute decree of reprobating them , all that happened to them was inevitable . but the children of isaack are called the children of promise , first , because they onely were to inherite the land of canaan ; and secondly , because christ according to the flesh was to descend from the progenie of isaack , not of ishmael . i might have added , that if none but the elect , and faithfull , can be admitted into the covenant , there is no subject left for the ordinance of baptism , it being impossible for man to know who are elect , spirituall , and true believers . neither can you baptize with right , or safety , all such grown persons as you baptize , since you cannot be assured that they are elect , spirituall , or true believers , ( revel. . . ) nor have any light to guide you , save that of charitable opinion , and conjecture . again , it being admitted that none but the spiritually , elect , and believing , can be baptized , the same charitie that swayes your judgment for grown persons , must much rather move you to hope the best of innocent infants , guiltie of no actuall sin , since it hopes all things , and thinks no evill , . cor. . . they may have faith ( in semine & habitu ) in the seed ( as they have the habit of principles , and reason ) tho they cannot exercise it till ripe years . . though they have not actuall faith , yet the faith of their parents may , and doth , put them into a capacitie of being admitted into the covenant , nor is it news that the parents faith advantageth the children . joh. . . t. i could wish you could prove that infants of believers might be admitted to baptism by virtue of their parents faith . v. they were admitted into the same covenant by circumcision , into which we are admitted now by baptism , but circumcision is a seal of the righteousness of faith , rom. . , . whence it will follow , that either they had the righteousness of faith inherently in themselves , or that of their parents imputed to them ( chuse you whether ) or else it will follow that circumcision was a false seal . t. it is not said there that circumcision was the seal of righteousness of the childrens faith , but onely of abrahams own faith in particular . v. but the covenant , or promise , was the same and alike to abraham , and his seed , rom. . . gen. . . and alike to us believers , and to our children , act. . . . this truth appears yet further from . . cor. - . where we find that the faith of either of the parents makes the children holy , at least in that degree of holyness ( which is the meanest imaginable ) to be in capacitie of being admitted into the same covenant with their parents . t. the scope of the apostle here , is to satisfie a scruple of the corinth . viz. whether the believing yoak-fellow might live in the enjoying and use of the unbelieving yoak-fellow ? he resolves them in the affirmative , saying , the unbelieving husband is sanctifyed in ( as 't is in the greek ) or to ( not for , or by ) the wife , &c. that is , he may lawfully use , and enjoy her , and she enjoy him — and their children holy , that is , legitimate . v. but here is certainly some speciall privilege set forth to the children of believers accruing to them from the believing parents . besides , it had been no news to tell them they might have the lawfull use of one another , and that their children were legitimate , and no bastards . for where both husband , and wife were unbelievers , no man ever doubted but their enjoyment of one another was lawfull , and their issue legitimate . t. the case is meant where both parties at their entrance into marriage were unbelievers , but afterwards one of them happens to be converted , whether then they might cohabit , and enjoy the use of one another . v. though this were granted ( which i shall not contend about ) yet the apostles sense can not be of the lawfull use , and enjoyment of each other , for the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} sanctifyed , never denotes to be lawfull . or if ever you shew me that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} which is render'd holy , signifies lawfull , i shall urge no further . t. ther 's that acception of the word . tim. . , . every creature of god is good , and not to be refused , if it be received with thanksgiving , for it is sanctified ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) by the word of god , and prayer here sanctifyed is for lawfully used , as standing in opposition to that which is refused . v. the sense is , that such use of the creature is pleasing to god , as acknowledging him the authour , and sender ; for suppose a sinfull man eat his meat without invoking god for a blessing , hath he not a lawfull use of the creature ? t. his next instance was . thes. . , , . where sanctification is used for chastitie , and might hear that sense in this place , cor. . . in agitation . v. i deny it , for sanctification is there used in its full latitude , as appears by the context . but i will descend to prove the second ground of my consequence , at the beginning , which you denied , viz. that baptism succeeded in the room of circumcision . mr. tombs had told us that it was impossible , for then women should not be baptized , because they were not circumcised , [ which is bellarmines argument ] to which i answered , that indeed the males only were mentioned in the covenant of circumcision , for in the eyes of all laws whatsoever , the women are but as ignoble creatures , and therefore the usuall stile of laws , and covenants is , si quis and qui in the masculine [ except such as particularly respect their sex ] . that they are included in the word seed , and because descended from man , did partake of the privilege , and promise annexed to the covenant . [ i thought also to have told him , that i well knew that before christs time , baptism and circumcision were both practised on the proselites called proselitae justitiae ( as i could have shewed out of severall authours ) yet that hinder'd not , but that baptism now under the gospell should be the sole means to admit us into the same covenant , into which the jews were admitted by circumcision . even as the bread and wine were taken by the jews at the eating of the passeover , and now that the jewish passeover is abrogated , the bread and wine were only by christ retained to commemorate his passion , the true passeover . . cor. . . and in like manner when circumcision was abolished , yet was baptism retained to admit the infants of christians , as circumcision admitted them of the jews ; but the time , and his close manner of disputing not permiting this enlarging by recourse to the originall , and institution of baptism , which served more to illustrate than convince , i kept to the tedder allowed , and came at length to prove that proposition ] from col. . . . where the circumcision of christ is set in opposition to the jewish circumcisition made with hands . . an explanation of what is meant by the circumcision of christ in these words , being buryed with him in baptism . t. paul here disswades them from the use of jewish ceremonies ( which some would have introduced amongst them ) and particularly of circumcision , because all those were but shadowes , but the body and realitie was of christ . v. t' is confessed the apostle speaks here against imposers of jewish ( and also pythagorean ) doctrines , and practises : but see ye not here a double circumcision , and the circumcision of christ described by being buried with him in baptism . the word buried implyeth but the resemblance betwixt christs death , and resurrection , with what is done in baptism , where there is an immersion or plunging in the water , to shadow his buriall , and emersion or rising up out of the water , to represent his resurrection , which resemblance is more fully set forth rom. c. . t. here mr. tombs interrupted me , and desired the people to take notice of my ingenuous confession , that baptism was then practised by plunging . he read also a passage out of casaubons annot. on the new test. where he saith that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to baptise , denoteth a plunging of the whole body &c. had he read out the passage , he might have found how that great scholar affirmes this to be a slender argument against such as only sprinkle at baptism , for saith he , the vertue and efficacie of baptism consistes not in that , meaning the manner of washing . v. i shall satisfie the auditours herein anon , in the mean time i desire answer to my argument , the analogie between circumcision and baptism being so evident in this place ; but receiving none , i addressed my self to the people , according to promise , saying , that indeed it seemed to me that for some centuries of years , that baptism was practised by plunging : for sprinkling was brought first in use by occasion of the clinicks ( as cyprian epist : a magnum relates ) being men which deferred their baptism till some extremitie of sickness , who then in such case were only sprinkled with water , lest the plunging of their bodies might over-offend them in that feeble desperate condition . t. here take notice that sprinkling took its rise from a corrupt custome . v. though plunging be confessed the more antient way , yet is this no ground for that over-uncharitable speech of yours , in your sermon yesterday : that our baptism , meaning of infants , and by sprinkling , was but a nullitie , and mockery , which concludes our selves , and all our auncestours , even all in the western church for . years , under damnation . for the church hath power upon the sight of any inconvenience , and for order and decencies sake , to alter the circumstantials and externalls of any ordinance . t. what have they to doe to alter any thing from the form of christs institution ? v. that they have such a power is confessed by all divines , and he is none that denies it , yea i believe it is acknowledged by your own practice . t. wherein ? v. in the administration of the lords supper , which was done by christ in the evening , and also then by his apostles after their love-feastes : the whole church of god , ( and your self i suppose ) take it in the morning , which custome hath taken place , and obtained every where for very many ages , even from their dayes who immediatly succeeded the apostles . thus advising him to be wise to sobriety , and cease to imbroyl the church of god ( so infinitly torn already ) and to submit to the judgment , and scarce-interrupted practise of the western churches , even for . years , to which gods providence could not be so far wanting , as to suffer them to fall into such an errour of admitting and retaining a baptism ( which in his account was none ) we broke off , a relation of the dispute had between mr. john tombs b. d. respondent , and john cragge mr. a. opponent , in st. maries church in abergevennie , septemb. . . touching infant-baptism . mr. cragge having briefly expressed that he was forced to undertake this task , on a sudden , and unprovided , against so experienced a champion ; desired , first , if he should fail , the cause might not suffer prejudice in mens opinions for his sake . . that libertie might be granted of a premeditate , and treatable dispute hereafter , not doubting that if he should but study the question so many hours as mr. tombs hath done dayes , so many dayes as he hath done weeks , so many weeks as he months , or so many months as the years , the truth was so evident on his side , he would not fear ( maugre all opposition ) to make it clear . in the mean time trusting to gods assistance , ( whose cause it was ) he would attempt it , beginning with this enthymema . c. some infants may not be baptized , therefore some infants may be baptized . t. having repeated , he denyed the consequence . c. which he proved thus , subcontrary propositions in a contingent matter may be both true . but these , viz : ( some infants may not be baptised , some infants may be baptized ) are subcontrary propositions in a contingent matter . therefore they may be both true . t. having repeated the syllogism , he said there were four terms in it . c. he enquired where ? t. he answered in these words ( may be both true ) in the premisses , and ( are both true ) in the conclusion . c. he returned , that was mr. tombs syllogism , none of his , reciting that distick of martial . quem recitas meus est ô fidentine logismus , sed male dum recitas , incipit esse tuus . t. repeating it over again after him , said that , c. which he took thus away ; that which proves the thing denied , is sufficient ; but that subcontrary propositions in a contingent matter may be both true , proves the thing denied , that some infants may not be baptized , some infants may be baptized ; therefore it is sufficient . t. he denyed the minor , tho it be an axiom , subcontrary propositions in a contingent matter may be both true , yet it was not consequent that these subcontrary contingent propositions ( some infants may not be baptized , some infants may be baptized ) may be both true . c. which was proved thus . that which is affirmed and predicated of the species , may , and is affirmed of every individuum , and particular under that species : but it is affirmed of the species , that subcontrary propositions in a contingent matter may be both true , therefore it may be affirmed of these particular propositions ( some infants may not be baptized , some infants may be baptized ) that they may be both true , t. he said it was a fallacy , he went about to entrappe him , in confessing that subcontrary propositions may be both true , where the subject is capable , but here the subject , ( to wit infants ) are not capable of baptism . c. then replyes he , they are not contingent ( which is here required ) but necessary propositions , in materiâ necessaria , if the subject be not capable , but we speak of contingent propositions , the predicate whereof may be affirmed or denied of the subject without contradiction ; which while he was framing into a syllogism , t. mr. t. interrupted him , saying , what would the man say if he could speak ? c. you love not to hear truth speak , but would strangle it in the birth , like the egyptian midwives ; but to give you further satisfaction , i will prove that they are actually both true , especially that some infants may be baptized , for of the other there is no controversie . which he did thus , to whom belongs the essence of baptism , they may be baptized ; but to some infants belongs the essence of baptism ; therefore some infants may be baptized . t. he denyed the minor , that the essence of baptism did belong to some infants . c. which was proved thus ; to whom belongs the definition of baptism , to them belongs the essence ; but to some infants belongs the definition of baptism ; therefore to some infants belongs the essence of baptism . t. he answered first to the major , ( to whom belongs the definition of baptism , to them belongs the essence , ) it was idem per idem , proving of the same thing by the same . c. to which was replyed , why then sayes aristotle , that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the definition is a manifestation of the essence , and logicians describe a definition , to be explicatio rei essentiae , the expression of the essence of a thing , now that which expresses a thing ; and which is expressed , are two distinct things . then he denied the minor , which was proved thus . c , the definition of baptism , as of all other relations , is made up of the fundament , correlative , and termini . but all these three fundamentum , correlatum , & terminus , belong to infants ; therefore the definition of baptism belongs to infants . t. he denied the major , that baptism was a relation , or was made up of those ingredients . c. he replyed , that seemed strange to him , seeing all the divines , and logicians that he had read , affirmed baptism to be a relation , and it was evident , it could be put in no other predicament , ( as might be proved by induction , but that the people understood it not ) seeing the whole nature of baptism is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in relation to another . t. he said he cared not for authorities , but bid him prove it . c. which he did thus ; every sacrament is a relation ; but baptism is a sacrament ; therefore baptism is a relation . t. he said he might deny both propositions , first the major , for any thing he knew , every sacrament was not a relation ; and the minor too , that baptism was a sacrament , for the word sacrament was an invention of man , not grounded upon scripture . c. which both propositions together were proved thus ; that which is an outward , and visible sign , of an inward , and invisible grace , is both a relation , and a sacrament ; but baptism is an outward and visible sign , of an inward , and invisible grace ; therefore it is both a relation , and a sacrament . t. he denyed the minor , that baptism was an outward , and visible sign , of an inward , and invisible grace . c. he told him , it was st. austens definition , avouched by learned men in succeeding ages , confirmed , and approved by the church of england in the old catechism . t. mr. tombs said he looked for artificiall or divine arguments , not humane testimonies , at which answer while mr. c. seemed to be astomished , he took occasion to triumph , contumeliously saying he never heard such an argument . c. to which he replyed , nor alexander ever saw such a knot , as the gordian , which made him cut it , when he could not untie it ; you teach me by experience to know that there is no disputing against them that deny all principles ; as where you think the people doe not understand , you make no scruple to deny clear truths in logick , and divinitie ; therefore i see i must goe to plain scriptures , that all the people may understand the absurdities . now that the definition of baptism ( which was the thing denyed ) belongs to infants , i prove thus . if god institute baptism for infants , christ merited it for them , and they stand need of it , then to infants belongs the definition of baptism ; but god instituted , christ meritted , and infants stand need of baptism ; therefore to infants belongs the definition of baptism . t. he denyed the minor , that god did not institute baptism for infants , christ did not merit it for them , nor infants stand in need of it . c. which he promised to prove in order , first that god did institute baptism for infants . he that appointed infants church-members under the gospell , did institute baptism for them ; but god appointed infants church-members under the gospell ; therefore god did institute baptism for infants . t. he said first the major might be questioned , because , to be church-members ( whereas he should have said church-members under the gospell ) and to be baptized , were not termini convertibiles . c. he confessed it , for infants under the law were church-members , and yet not baptized , but circumcised , and before the law church-members , and yet neither circumcised , nor baptized ; but under the gospell they were so convertible , that all that were baptized , were church-members , and all that were church-members were to be baptized , which is that which he affirmed now , and is a truth , a truth so clear , that mr. tombs confesses it all along in his books , and upon that confessed ground , mr. baxter goes in many of his arguments . t. he would have denyed it , till a gentleman told him , that he heard him affirm the same in his sermon the day before , then he denyed the minor , that god did institute infants church-members under the gospell . c. that i 'l confirm ( sayes he ) with a threefold cord , which will not easily be broken , before the law , under the law , under the gospell , which he framed into an argument thus those whom god did promise before the law , foretell under the law , actually receive into covenant under the gospell , those god did appoint church-members under the gospell ; but god did promise before the law , foretell under the law , and actually receive infants into covenant under the gospell ; therefore god did appoint infants church-members under the gospell . t. he denyed the minor , that god did not promise before the law , foretell under the law , and actually receive infants into covenant under the gospell . c. which was proved in order , first that god did promise before the law that infants should be in covenant under the gospell , thus . that which god did promise to abraham , was before the law ; but god did promise to abraham , that infants should be in covenant under the gospell ; therefore god did promise before the law , that infants should be in covenant under the gospell . the minor being denyed , he proved out of gen. . . i will establish my covenant between me , and thee , and thy seed after , thee , in their generations , for an everlasting covenant . to be a god unto thee , and unto thy seed after thee . thus framing his argument ; he that makes an everlasting covenant to abraham , and his seed after him in their generations , promised that infants should be in covenant under the gospell ; but god makes an everlasting covenant with abraham , and his seed after him in their generations ; therefore god promised that infants should be in covenant under the gospell . t. he denyed the major , saying , that everlasting signifyed onely a long time , not that it should be so under the gospell to the worlds end ; and was to be interpreted by the verse following , i will give unto thee the land of canaan for an everlasting possession , and yet the jews are now dispossessed of canaan . c. they are now dispossest , but shall be possessed of it again at their conversion , and so have an everlasting possession , in the type to the end of the world , in the antitype for ever , but that the covenant that god made with abraham is to continue to the end of the world appears in that it is a gospell covenant ; that which is a gospell covenant is to continue to the end of the world ; but the covenant that god made with abraham and his seed to all generations , is a gospell covenant , gal. . . and the scripture foreseeing that god would justifie the heathen , through faith , preached the gospell before to abraham , saying , in thee shall nations be blessed ; therefore it is to continue to the end of the world . t. without repeating , he confusedly answer'd thus , that it was an everlasting covenant , and to continue to the end of the world , but not to infants . c. he told him first that it was a denying of the conclusion , then took away his answer thus ; if god command infants to stand before him , in covenant , then it is to continue to infants ; but god commands infants to stand in covenant before him ; therefore it is to continue to infants . deut. . , . yee stand this day all of you before the lord , your god , your captains of your tribes , your elders , and your officers , with all the men of israel , your litle ones . t. he said that he should have proved that it should continue to infants to the worlds end , for he did not deny but that infants in some sense were in covenant under the law , but not under the gospell . c. yes under the gospell ; if christ hath obtained a more excellent ministrie , and is a mediator of a better covenant , which is established upon better promisses , then if infants were in covenant under the law , they are in covenant under the gospell ; but heb. . . christ hath obtained a more excellent ministry , was a mediator of a better covenant , which was established upon better promises ; therefore if infants were in covenant under the law , they are in covenant under the gospell . t. he denyed the consequence of the major , that tho the covenant of the gospell was a better covenant than that of the law , yet infants were not in covenant as well under the gospell , as under the law . c. which was thus taken away ; that which unchurches the one half of christendome , and leaves them no ordinary means of salvation , can not be a better covenant ; but to deny infants to be in covenant , unchurches the one half of christendome , and leaves them no ordinary means of salvation ; therefore it cannot be a better covenant . t. without repeating the syllogism , or denying either of the premisses , or formally applying any distinction , he said , the covenant under the gospell was made onely with the spirituall seed of abraham . c. which was thus disproved ; if the covenant was made in the same manner , and extent , to the gentiles , as to the jewes , then under the gospell it was not onely made to the spirituall seed ; but it was made in the same manner , and extent , to the gentiles , as it was to the jewes ; therefore under the gospell it was not onely made to the spirituall seed . t. he denyed the minor . c. which was proved by this enthymema : the partition wall is pulled down , and jewe and gentile are all one in christ-jesus ; therefore the covenant is made in the same manner , and extent , to the jew , and gentile . t. he denyed the consequent , that , tho the partition wall was taken down , and both jew and gentile are all one in christ-jesus , seeing the gospell was offered to all nations ; yet under the gospell the covenant was onely with the elect , and believers . c. which was confuted thus ; that which is made with the whole visible church , is not onely made with the elect , and true believers ; but the covenant is made with the whole visible church ; therefore not onely with the elect , and true believers . t. he denyed the major . c. which was proved thus ; that which is made to the kingdom of god upon earth , is not onely made to the elect ; but that which is made to the whole church visible is made to the kingdom of god upon earth ; therefore it was not onely made to the elect. t. he denyed the major , that , that which was made to the kingdom of god upon earth , is not onely made to the elect. c. which was proved thus ; in the kingdom of god , that is in the church militant , there are not onely elect , but reprobates , saints , but hypocrites , for all that are outwardly called , are of the kingdom of god in this sense , and many are called , but few chosen , the kingdom of god is compared to a field , where there are tares , as well as wheat ; a fould ; where there are goats as well as sheep ; to a noble mans house , where there are vessels of dishonour , as well as honour ; and if the church in regard of outward administration of ordinances ( which is the question ) were onely the elect , then it would follow that there were no visible church upon earth , the jewes had no more visible church than the heathens , the distinction of the church visible , and invisible , were frivolous , for no man , nor angell , knows who are elect , nor any but god . to which issue the first branch of the argument being brought , mr. c. referred the judgment of it to the people , and proceeded to the second , that god foretold under the law , that infants should be church-members under the gospell . t. mr. t. perceiving that the people apprehended that he was brought to an apparent absurdity , would have waded into a large discourse to wind himself out . c. but mr. c. told him , that it was his office ( being respondent ) to deny or distinguish , but not authoritatively to determine the question , as if he were the dr. of the chair ; and with much ado ( the anabaptistes crying let him have liberty to speak on ) brought him to dispute again , and to turn to esay . . . whence he framed this argument . he that foretold that he would lift up his hand to the gentiles , and set up a standard to the people , and that they should bring their sons in their armes , and their daughters shall be carryed upon their shoulders , foretold that infants should be church-members under the gospell ; but thus saith the lord god , behold i will lift up my hand to the gentiles , and set up my standard to the people , and they shall bring thy sons in their arms , and thy daughters shall be carryed upon their shoulders ; therefore god foretold that infants should be church-members under the gospell . t. he denyed the major ; and said the meaning was , that the jewes should bring the gentiles children . c. to which he replyed , god sayes i will lift up my hand to the gentiles , and they , that is the gentiles , shall bring thy sons , and mr. tombs says the jews shall bring thy sons ; then a gentleman read the words , and said it is the gentiles shall bring , &c. t. then mr. t. recollecting himself said , the meaning was , the gentiles should bring the jewes children from captivity ; and that it did not point at the time of the gospell . c. to which was replyed , the contents of the chapter sayes that it points at the time of the gospell ; mr. tombs sayes it points at the time of the jewes captivitie , whether shall we believe ? and repeated the contents : christ being sent to the jewes , complaineth of them to the . verse , he is sent to the gentiles to the . verse , gods love to his church to the end ; then the people laughed , &c. the pith of which was framed into an argument thus ; that which is the judgment of the church of england ought to be entertained before the groundles assertion of one private man ; but that it points at the time of the gospell is the judgment of the church of england ; therefore it ought to be entertained before the groundles assertion of one private man . t. he denyed that it was the judgment of the church of england . c. which was thus proved , if the church of england causes it to be printed , and commands it to be read before the chapter , then it is the judgment of the church of england ; but the church of england causes it to be printed , and commands it to be read before the chapter ; therefore it is the judgment of the church of england . t. mr. t. said it was not commanded to be printed , and read so before the chapter , for he knew not what kind of bible his was . c. he told him , it was the same with the great church bible , which was not onely authorised with a proclamation , but an act almost fifty years agoe , and will mr. tombs without giving of a reason condemn a whole nation to have slept in such an errour all that while ? then mr. abbets preacher resident there , one who hath been dipped , being in pulpit with mr. tombs , stood up and said , the words were , they shall bring thy sons in their arms ; to which mr. c. replyed , what then ? may they not be gods sons by adoption , and their own by naturall generation ? mr. tombs fell upon expounding the chapter from verse to verse . mr. c. told him , that they came not to hear him expound , but dispute , and repeating the last argument , wished him to answer ; at which abbets stood up again , and said the words of the text were , that they , that is , the gentiles , shall bring thy children , that is the jewes . to which mr. c. replyed , that was an addition to the text , for there is no mention of the jewes ; but grant it were , must it be therefore meant of the captivitie ? the . and . verses of this chapter confutes it , intimating that the jewes after christs comming shall lose their own naturall , and the gentiles children shall be adopted , and engrafted into their place ; they , that is the gentiles converted , shall bring thy sons , thine by a kind of adoption , and spirituall succession , for the gentiles children were ingrafted into the stock of the jewes children broke off ; and this is so clear from the context ( compared with rom. . ) that with reason it could not be denyed ; but he was to speak to mr. tombs who understood the nature of a dispute , and not to him , and if he would take upon him to moderat , it was fit that he should have another . t. mr. tombs asked mr. c. what he understood by standart , what by kings , what by nursing fathers , &c. c. he told him , that it was not his place to dispute socratically by asking of questions , but to answer ad appositum . but to give him satisfaction ( which he needed not ) by standart he understood some visible gospell ordinance , as baptism ; by kings supream magistrats , by nursing fathers , and nursing mothers , patrons , and protectours of the gospell . t. he said that it was a metaphoricall speech , and that nothing could be gathered from it . c. he replyed , that he would grant him that it was more than a metaphoricall speech , ( for a metaphor consisted but in one single trope ) but it was a continuation of severall tropes , and therefore allegoricall ; yet it does not follow , that nothing could be gathered from it , for then nothing could be gathered from any parable in the gospell ; nay nor any part of the new testament ; for there is scarce a sentence without some tropes in it . t. mr. t. said it was fulfilled in hesters time , which was a nursing mother to the jews : c. to which was answered ; hester was a jew , and a friend to the jews , what is this to the gentiles bringing children upon shoulders ? and tho that should be waved , and hester granted to be a nursing mother in the type , yet in the antitype it aymes principally at the times of the gospell , else grosse absurdities would follow ; for what kings , or queens in hesters-time did bow down to the jews with their face towards the earth , and lick up the dust of their feet ? verse . iles are summoned in the first verse , which must be meant of the time of the gospell : christ is promised to be given for a light for the gentiles , that he may be their salvation to the end of the earth . . kings shall see , and arise , princes also shall worships . . and the holy ghost , quotes verbatim , and applyes to the time of the gospell the . verse , and that expressely . cor. . . there is an implyed cutting off to the jews , . an ingrafting in of the gentiles , the children of the wild olive into the stock of the naturall olive , . and a bringing of children to visible ordinances , . all which he offered to frame into arguments . t. but mr. t. prevented it , saying , that though it should be understood of the times of the gospell , yet by sons in armes , and daughters upon shoulders , was meant grown men , for any thing he knew , and men women and of a hundred years of age might be carryed upon armes , and upon shoulders . which indeed is the same answer mr. t. gives in his scepticall exercitation ; ( like foxes , and badgers being beat out of one hole , hath another to fly unto : ) where ( as mr. hussey quotes him ) he uses the same words , that mr. abbets , and he found fault with in mr. c. major proposition , for these are his words , it is foretold that gentiles should bring their children in their armes , therefore the prophet foresaw the baptism of infants ; he might have seen the beam in his own eye , turpe est doctori , &c. but to return to mr. t. answer . c. which mr. c. took thus away ; them that they should bring in their bosomes were infants ; but it was foretold that they should bring them in their bosomes ; therefore they were infants . t. he enquired where it did appear that they should bring them in their bosomes . c. out of the text , for the word in the originall ( which is translated armes ) is bosome , and so the septuagints read it {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , intimating that they should bring sucking children hanging upon their breasts . t. then mr. tombs said it was an analogie , and performed when the gentiles perswaded their children to embrace christ . c. well then , it is their children , not thy children , oportet esse memorem ; but not that neither ; for that scripture which in the letter suites with many other scriptures , but in the pretended analogie with no other , can not be the meaning ; but to interpret it literally of bringing children to christ in the bosome , suites with many scriptures , and to perswade them to come to christ , with no scriptures ; therefore it can not be the meaning . t. mr. t. could not name one text of scripture , where to bring in armes , or bosome , was to perswade to come to christ . c. so mr. c. referred the judgment of it to the people , and named another text , es. . . there shall be no more thence an infant of dayes , &c. but the child shall die an hundred year old . t. mr. tombs bid him read the rest of the words , and the verse following . c. he said he had read as much as he intended to rayse his argument from . t. take notice ( sayes he ) he will not read that which makes against him . c. not so ; for nothing of it makes against me , but that an argument must be terminus simplex , and homogeneal , and that you know well inough , but that in place of solid satisfaction you must say something to deceive the people . the arguments i raise hence are two , the first is this , there shall be no more an infant of dayes , that is , infants shall not be uncapable of the seal , while their age is measured by dayes , as the jews infants that might not be circumcised till a week had passed over them ; therefore infants new born are capable of the seal ; the secund argument is this , the child shall dye an hundred year old , that is , as an hundred year old , or as well a church-member as if he were a hundred year old ; therefore children may be baptized under the gospell : t. mr: t. found fault with that interpretation , shall dye an hundred years old , that is as if an hundred years old . c. he answered , to take it literally would imply a contradiction , for it was impossible to be a child , and a hundred years old , and was better than his , and the anabaptistes exposition of cor. . . they were baptized under the cloud , that is ( say you ) as if they were baptized under the cloud , when nothing hindred , but they were really baptized under the cloud . and rom. . . the branches were broken off ▪ that is ( say you ) as if they were broken off , when it was both possible , and apparent , that they were broken off . t. then mr. t. said it was not meant of the times of the gospell . c. to which was replyed ; mr. t. will still be wiser than the church of england ; and read the contents of the chapter ; the calling of the gentiles v. . the jews rejected . the blessed state of the new jerusalem to the end . t. mr: t. said it was verifyed zacha : . . thus saith the lord of hosts , there shall yet old men , and old women dwell in the streets of jerusalem , and every man with his staff in his hand for very age , and the streets of the citie shall be full of boyes , and girles playing in the streets thereof . c. to which was replyed ; what is this to an infant of dayes , or a child dying a hundred years old ? when it is apparent both from the contents , & text , that this of zachary is meant of the jews return from captivity , & more apparent that that of es. is meant of the state of christs kingdome under the gospell which i prove thus ; that interpretation that brings with it ▪ absurditie , untruth , blasphemie , is not to be admitted ; but to interpret it of the jews return from captivitie brings with it absurditie , untruth , blasphemie ; therefore it is not to be admitted . t. mr. tombs denyed the minor . c. which was proved in order ; first that it brought with it absurdity , to apply the . verse to the return from captivity was absurd , that the wolf and the lamb should feed together , and the lion should eat straw with the bullock , and dust should be the serpents meat ; therefore it brought with it absurdity . secondly that it brought with it untruth ; but to apply the . v. to the return from captivity brought with it an untruth , that the voice of weeping should be no more heard in jerusalem ; for it was twice destroyed after , once by antiochus , then by vespatian , and titus ; therefore it brought with it an untruth . thirdly that it brought with it blasphemie ; for to interpret the . verse , ( behold i create new heavens , and new earth , and the former shall no more be remembred , and come into mind ) of the second temple , is blasphemous ; therefore it brought with it blasphemie , for it crosseth st. peters interpretation . pet. . . wee according to his promise look for new heavens , and a new earth ; for can any rationall man think , that the new temple built at jerusalem in cyrus his time , was this new heaven , and new earth , that the former should be no more remembred ? when the antient men are said to weep , because the glory of the latter temple was short of the glory of the first , ezra . . . [ it was inferiour to solomons temple , first in respect of the building , that was lower , and meaner ; secondly , in respect of the vessels , before of gold , now of brasse ; thirdly , of five things that were lost , first the ark of god , secondly , the urim & thummim , thirdty , fire from heaven to consume the sacrifices , fourthly , the glory of god between the cherubims , fiftly , the gift of prophesie , for after the second temple there was no prophet . ] t. mr. t. fell to his wonted course of impertinent exposition , wherein mr. c. told him he violated the rules of dispute , and did lasciviously wanton it out into a wilderness of words , that the truth might be obscured or lost , and like a lapwing carry the hearers far from the matter . then c. p. an apothecary began to interpose , as he had done once before , till a gentleman of authoritie , told him , that it was not fit for a man of his place , and calling , to speak ; yet mr. tombs would not be satisfyed , but went on saying that dr. prideaux in oxford , when a place of scripture was cited , was wont to give a large exposition . c. mr. c. replyed ; that dr. prideaux was doctor of the chair , and judge of the controversie , and might do that which a respondent may not do , whose office is onely to repeat , deny , distinguish , and when a text is quoted , to give a brief exposition , that the opponent may have something to fasten upon ; and what dr. prideaux did , he knew not ; but what dr. collins , and dr. ward did , he could tell him ; but that it was not to the present purpose . and that his judgment in this , was but the same with his own university of oxford , as he knew of late by a sad experiment . t. mr. tombes asked what that was ? c. he told him an explosion , not for disability ( for his dispute was plausible inough ) but that he would neither be satisfied with d. salvage his answer , nor the doctor of the chaires determination ; but fell to repetitions , and extravagances , as now . mr. tombes launched into a tedious discourse to vindicate himself , till he had tyred the auditors , who cryed out this is but to waste time ; and a learned gentleman spake aloud , this is but to spend the time in parling , that he may avoid the gun-shot , for he is affraid the great thunderbolt is behind : and so with much adoe , he was brought to dispute again , where mr. c. falling upon the third branch of his argument , that god did actually receive infants to be church-members under the gospell , began thus . c. those whom christ commanded his disciples to baptize , they may be baptized ; but christ commanded his disciples to baptize infants ; therefore they may be baptized . the minor being denyed , was proved thus ; he that commanded his disciples to baptize all nations , commanded them to baptize infants ; but christ commanded his disciples ; matth. . . to baptize all nations ; therefore christ commanded them to baptize infants . t. mr. t. denyed the major . c. which was proved by this enthymema ; the whole includes every part ; infants are a part of nations ; therfore he that commanded to baptize all nations , commanded to baptize infants . t. he denyed the consequent , though the whole included every part , and nations were the whole , and infants were a part of nations , yet it did not follow that infants were to be baptized . c. he returned , that , that saying of aquinas ( posito toto generali , pars ejus negari non potest , a generall whole being granted , no part of it can be denyed ) was an axiome both in logick , philosophie , and divinity , as psalm . . prayse the lord all yee nations , is interpreted by another psalm , old men , and babes , young men , and maidens , prayse yee the lord . t. mr. t. said it was an axiome that the whole includes every part , where there is no exception , but here is an exception . c. he replyed , saint ambrose upon the place sayes there is no exception , qui dixit omnes , nullos exclusit , neque parvulos , &c. he that said baptize all nations , excepted none , no not infants . t. mr. t. pished at it , sleighting ambrose his authority . c. then said mr. c. whether we shall obey ambrose bishop of millain with scripture , or mr. tombes vicar of lemster against scripture , judge you . but that there is no exception thus i prove , if infants be excepted from baptism , it is either because they are not named in the text , or because we find no instance that any were baptized , or because they are not capable ; but for none of these three ; therefore infants are not excepted . t. mr. t. denyed the major , and said that a fourth reason might be given , because they were not disciples , c. he told him that in this answer he shewed himself to be no good logician ; for it is an axiome , that in no division , one member can be affirmed of another , because they are opposite , now to be disciples , and capable of baptism were not opposite but subordinate ; and to be disciples , if it made them not capable , it was no exception at all , if it made them capable , it was the same with the third , to which dilemma when he could receive no answer , he demanded where it was required that those that are to be baptized , must be disciples ? t. he said out of the text , for that which is translated teach all nations , is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} make disciples of all nations . c. he replyed ; at ross you found fault with me for that translation , asking me , was i wiser than the translators ? and now when it seemes to make for you , you urge it . quo teneam vultus mutantem protea nodo ? i confess it is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , in the aorist , ye shall make disciples , for it must be interpreted by the future , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , baptizing , or by baptizing in the present tense ; as if discipling were the end , and baptizing the means , and required no qualification before ( as learned men with great probability press ) but i will not insist upon that now , but that which you denyed , i prove , that infants may be disciples , from [ that place rom. . . compared with the . verse , for so mr. c. said , mistaking it for ] acts . . t. at which mr. tombes insulted , saying he was a good text-man . c. he replyed , he was in hast , and did not think of this before , but that his answer did drive him to it , and he in his elaborate books did oftentimes quote one place for another , then how much more might he , that was extemporall , it had been enough to have said , as our saviour to the tempter , it s written : but to leave these catches , and come to the proof . they upon whom the pharasies would have layd the yoak , were disciples , verse . why tempt ye god , to put a yoak upon the neck of the disciples ; but many of them were infants ; therefore infants are disciples . t. he denyed the minor , that many of them were not infants . c. which was proved thus ; the yoak was circumcision verse . the pharasies saying , that it was needfull to circumcise them ; but they upon whom the yoak was to be imposed by circumcision , were only infants amongst the jews , and infants together with parents amongst the gentiles ; therefore many of them were infants . t. he denyed the major , and said the yoak was not circumcision . c. he replyed it was apparent , by comparing the . and . with the foregoing verses . . verse certain men came down from judea , and taught the brethren , except ye be circumcised , after the manner of moses , ye cannot be saved ; where observe that circumcision is the subject of the question . in the . verse they determined that paul , and barnabas , and certain others of them , should go up to jerusalem unto the apostles , and elders , about this question , to wit circumcision . in the . certain of the sect of the pharasies said , that it was needfull to circumcise them . in the . the apostles came together to consider of the matter , that is circumcision , and when there had been much disputing , peter rose up in the . and determined the question in the tenth verse , why tempt ye god to put a yoak upon the neck of the disciples ? t. mr. t. said , that circumcision could not be the yoak , that neither they nor their fathers could bear . c. he returned , that it was a bloody , and a heavy yoak , therefore the israelites had a dispensation for . years in the wilderness ; moses neglected the circumcision of his child probably for this cause ; and his wife ( when the child was circumcised ) called him a bloody husband . the sichemites were slain , as unable to defend themselves , while they were sore of the wound of circumcision . t. mr. t. said , that the doctrine of moses was the yoak of which infants were not capable . c. he replyed ; that circumcision was principally meant , and the doctrine of moses onely as an appendix of it , and children were as capable of the doctrine then , as they were in abraham , and moses his time , when all in the moment of circumcision were tyed to the observation of the doctrine , tho they of ripe years ( to use vossius his distinction ) were taught the doctrine antecedenter , before circumcision , infants of eight days consequenter , after circumcision , when age made them capable ; i know ( sayes god ) abraham will teach his children ; so it is apparent all those upon whom circumcision with the doctrine of moses was to be imposed , were called disciples ; but some of these were infants , for onely infants were circumcised among the jews , and infants with the parents among the gentils ; therefore some infants are disciples . mr. t. without any distinct answer would have broke through the pales to rove abroad again . c. but he pressed him to keep within the lists , urging this argument . they to whom is the promise , they may be baptized , it s the apostles own inference , acts . . be baptized , for the promise is to you ; but to infants of believing parents is the promise , the promise is to you , and your children ; therefore infants may be baptized . t. he denyed the minor , that to infants of believing parents is the promise . c. he told him , it was the words of the text , the promise is to you , and your children . t. then mr. t. said they were not believers yet . c. mr. c. replyed , they were believers in fieri , tho perhaps not in facto . t. that 's latine ( sayes mr. t. ) what do you understand by it ? c. he said , i mean this , they were believers by outward assent , and disposition , sufficient to make them members visible ; but perhaps not believers by inward assent , and habit , to justify them . for i know you will not say that none are to be baptized but they that have a saving faith , which none but god is able to discern . ministers must act according to rule , which in adultis , is outward profession , or a willingness to receive the ordinance , and that they were thus qualified ( which is sufficient ) it is apparent . t. mr. t. denyed that they were sufficiently qualified . c. which was proved thus ; they whom the apostle commanded to be baptized , were sufficiently qualified ; but the apostle commanded them to be baptized ; therefore they were sufficiently qualified . t. then mr. t. without repeating the syllogism , or applying any distinction , inquired where the apostle commanded them to be baptized . c. he told him verse . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , be baptized every one of your . t. yes ( sayes mr. t. ) upon condition of repentance , repent and be baptized . c. that is a condition of your own making , and an adding to the word of god , for where dos the scripture , either expresly , or implyedly say , that repentance is a condition of baptism ? if it be meant of compleat repentance , true it is , it was their duty both to repent , and to be baptized , to repent in relation to crucifying of christ , to be baptized in relation to judaism , which they were to put off , and christianity which they were to put on ; but that they must have compleat repentance before baptism , it is not so much as hinted at . and if you mean incompleat repentance ( which is indeed all that is required ) they had that already , for they were pricked in conscience , saying , men , and brethren what shall we do ? t. mr. t. said that was not all that was required , nor was it a sufficient qualification for baptism . c. against which answer was concluded thus ; that upon which the apostles baptized three thousand the same day , was a sufficient qualification ; but the apostles upon that baptized . the same day ; therefore it was a sufficient qualification . t. he denyed the minor , and gave his reason from the . and . verses , and with many other words did he testify , and exhort , saying , save your selves from this untoward generation , then they that gladly received the word were baptized , c. it was replyed , that this was but a recapitulation , or reciting of the heads of peters sermon that he preached to them , before they were pricked in conscience , or were exhorted to be baptized , and no new act ; which was a thing usual in scripture , as gen. . god having expressed the creation of man , and gods blessing of him , and all creatures to him , by a {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} recites the manner of his creation in the second chapter . but howsoever it made nothing against him , for whether it be taken thetically without any condition , or hypothetically upon condition of repentance , the children were to be baptized together with the parents , the promise is to you and your children , and that was all that he contended for ; from whence ariseth this argument , to whom the promise of grace belongs , to them baptism belongs also ; but the promise of grace belongs to believers and their children ; therefore baptism belongs to both . t. mr. t. said , the promise of grace belonged to believers , and their children , when their children actually believed , and not before . c. he replyed , there were two arguments in the text to overthrow that : the first might be drawn from the indicative predication in the present tense , the promise is to you , and your children , is , for the present , as well to your children , as to you . the second , from the opposition betwixt you and your children , and them that are afar off . they , and their children , which are , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , near ( as the greek scholiast , and the syrian interpreter saies ) are opposed to them that are {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , afar off . the jews were near , and in covenant , for to them is the promise in the present tense , but the gentiles were afar off , rom. . . ye who sometimes were afar off , are made nigh by the blood of christ , therefore it is expressed in the future tense , as many as god shall call ; so that to the jews being called , their children were in covenant with them ; when the gentiles shall be called , their children shall be in covenant with them . t. mr. t. said , he granted that children were in covenant , and might be baptized c. well then observe , good people , the dispute is at an end , he grants that children are in covenant , and may be baptized . t. yes , but by those children are not meant infants , but grown men . c. he replyed , there are many circumstances in the text overthrows that ; first , the word is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which comes from {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to bring forth , given sometimes to children in the womb , for the most part to them that are newly born , or young . t. mr. t. said , it was also given to men of ripe age . c. yes sometimes , by a figurative speech , ( as that of julius caesar to brutus in plutarch ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and thou my child . and well might he call him his child , for he had adopted him the night before ; but properly it signifies a young child , and so it ought to be taken here , unless some convincing reason can be given to the contrary , according to that rule , omne analogum per se positum , stat pro famosiore significato . mr. t. gave no answer , but with a jeering eccho repeated the last words , pro famosiore significato . the second circumstance in the text , is the substantive verb {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , is , the promise is to you , and your children , not is to you , and shall be to your children ; now what children had they at this present , but young children ? unless mr. t. will imagine that they were all old men and women that were present , and their younger men and women were absent . the third circumstance in the text is the finis cui , the end to whom the promise is , to you , and your children ; the jews children under the law were in covenant with their parents , the charter is confirm'd under the gospel to them and their children . the jews when they crucified christ , called for a curse upon themselves , and upon their children , here the apostle gives them a remedy as large as the disease , the promise ( that is , of freedome from the curse ) is to you and your children . t. mr. t. still kept his conclusion in despight of the premisses , that it was to their children when they actually believed , and not before . c. yes , and before they actually believe , which i prove thus : the blessing is as large as the curse ; but the curse extended even to children , before they could actually believe ( his blood be upon us and upon our children ) therefore the blessing . t. mr. t. answered to the major thus : if by blessing was meant the inward and spiritual part of the covenant , it might be true ; but that was nothing to the present purpose , seeing it was not known to us : but if the outward , and visible part , he denied that infants were capable of the blessing , as well as liable to the curse . c. which distinction was took away thus : they that are holy with a covenant-holiness are capable of the outward and visible part ; but infants of believers are holy with a covenant-holiness ; therefore they are capable of the outward and visible part . t. mr. t. denied the minor , and said that covenant-holiness was gibberidge , which they that spoke did not understand themselves . c. mr. c. replyed , it was the language of learned men of all ages , amongst whom were vossius , bullinger , and hugo grotius ; and that children of believing parents were holy before baptism , and that baptism did not make , but declare them to be christians . then cryed out a cobler , [ i. e. ] ( that hath been dipped ) this is blasphemy . c. well , you discover of what spirit you are , and your ignorance ; are not these the words of the learned assembly of divines in the directory confirmed by ordinance of parliament ? that infants are christians , and federally holy before baptism , and therefore are they baptized [ pag . ] and that infants of believing parents are thus holy , with a federall , or covenant-holiness , i thus prove from , cor. . . els were your children unclean , but now they are holy . t. that sayes mr. t. is meant of matrimoniall holynes , or a lawfull use of the marriage-bed , that they are no bastards . c. that answer i thus infringe . that which in scripture is taken almost six hundred times in a distinct sense , and not so much as once for matrimoniall holiness , cannot be so meant here ; but it is taken in scripture almost six hundred times in a distinct sense , and not once for matrimoniall holyness ; therefore it cannot be so meant here . t. that argument ( sayes mr t. ) i will retort upon you , that which in scripture is taken six hundred times in a distinct sense , and never once for covenant-holiness cannot be meant here ; but it is taken six hundred times in a distinct sense , and never once for covenant holiness ; therfore it cannot be meant here . c. to which was replyed , this is to invert the order of the dispute , you are to answer , and not to oppose . t. i may oppose by retorting of an argument , and i will answer anon . c. well , to satisfie you , i deny your minor , for it s taken oft in scripture for covenant-holiness . t. where ? c. the proof lyes upon you , that it is not , yet i le give give you one instance , or two , rom. . . if the first fruits be holy , the lump is also holy , and if the root be holy , so are the branches . t. that is not meant of a covenant-holyness . c. yes , it s as cleer as the light , and so you your self interpreted it at ross , as there are hundreds that will witness , which was upon this occasion . i pressed that if the immediat parents were holy , the children were holy with a covenant-holiness ; you denyed the inference , and said the meaning of it was , that abraham the father of the faithfull was the first fruits , and root that was holy , and therefore his posterity was holy , and in covenant [ and in this exposition , as he agreed with truth , so with beza , who sayes that children are holy , that is comprehended in covenant from the wombe , and with bowles who saith , that they are holy with outward holiness , by which they are judged to be in covenant ] but to return from whence , by your retortion , we have digressed . i am to prove that holyness is never taken in scripture for matrimoniall cleanness in opposition to illegitimation . not in that place ezra . . the holy seed have mingled themselves with the seed of those lands ; which is either your only , or principall hold , ( as far as i can gather out of your books ) therefore in no place . t. he denyed the antecedent . c. which was proved thus . if it be meant of matrimoniall cleanness , then this must be the meaning of the words ; the holy seed , that is the lawfully begotten jews , have mingled themselves with the seed of those lands , that is the bastards of those lands ; but that cannot be the meaning , for happily there were some bastards among the jewes , and in that sense not holy , and no bastards among the nations , but all , or the most legitimate , and therefore in that sense not unholy ; therefore it is not meant of matrimoniall holiness . t. he denyed the major , affirming that both jews , and nations , were holy before their mixture , but then , both they , and their children became unclean , because god had forbidden them to marry with the nations . c. to which was answered , they that are saints are not unholy ; but some saints have been begot by this mixture , or unlawfull bed , as jepthah , who hebr. . is said to be justified by faith ; therefore they are not unholy . t. he denyed the major , saying , they may be unholy by their naturall generation , and first birth , and yet holy by regeneration , and new birth . c. this strikes not home ; moses had children by his ethiopian woman , but they were not illegitimate ; therefore those that were begot by mixture with the nations were not illegitimate . t. mr. t. said , that was before the law was given . c. well , that answer will do you little service ; after the law was given , salomon had children by rahab , who was a cananitish , and boaz by ruth , who was a moabitish woman ; and yet they were not illegitimate , or unholy , as you would have it . t. they became proselites , and received the religion of the jews . c. well then , while they were not of the jews religion , tho no bastards , they were unholy , when they embraced the jews religion , ( by your own confession ) they became holy ; what is this but a covenant-holyness which you have opposed all this while , and now grant it ? t. mr. t. used many words to clear himself , but with little satisfaction to the greatest part of the hearers , and still denied that children were holy , and in covenant . c. which was further proved thus , they that christ took up in his arms , blessed , said , the kingdom of god belonged unto them , pronounced a curse upon those that despised , and would not receive , are holy with a covenant-holyness ; but christ took up little children into his arms , blessed them , sayd , the kingdom of god belonged unto them , pronounced a curse upon those that despised , and would not receive them ; therefore little children are holy with a covenant-holiness . t. mr. tombes began to be netled , as if something in this argument galled him , saying it was a fallacie , and that he went about to entrap him by sophistrie . c. what fallacie ? t. a heaping of many things together that belong to severall matters . c. i confess they were spoken upon severall occasions , but they all concenter in my conclusion , that children are holy , and in covenant ; i am in hast , and named them all together , but if you will have patience , i le prosecute them severally . t. i am willing to continue till midnight , but i like not this kind of arguing . c. you like it not , because it does jugulum petere , cut the throat of your tenet . t. no not so much as touch the skin of it , sayes he . c. well i beseech you in the spirit of meekness to answer . t. it is a fallacie of heaping many particulars together . c. i confess there is a fallacie they call {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . t. take notice , he confesses it is a fallacie . c. no such thing , for {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is an asking of many questions , which is your usuall fallacie , socratically to ask , when you should solidly answer , but in my syllogism there is not so much as one question . t. it is a copulative proposition sayes mr. tombes , and if one member of it be false , the whole is false . c. it is not an explicit copulative proposition ( sayes mr. c. ) neither is any member of it false , ( for every branch of it is scripture , ) instance in any of the particulars that you think m●kes the least for me , and i le begin with that ; then he mentioned matth. . . which words being read , from thence he raysed this argument . they to whom belongs the kingdom of heaven , are holy , and in covenant ; but to little children belongs the kingdom of heaven ; therefore little children are holy , and in covenant . t. those little children were not infants . c. they are called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} of {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , because they could scarce speak . t. what are these called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ? c. if not here , elsewhere , and of other evangelists , and here they are called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , by the diminutive , which the great master of the greek hippocrates interprets , to signifie a child under seven years of age , and therefore not capable of actuall faith , when the apostles themselves were yet ignorant about fundamentalls . t. they were converted verse . except ye be converted , and become as little children , &c. c. the meaning is not that the little children are converted , but it hath relation to the disciples in the first verse , who must be converted from their actuall sins , and become as little children which have no actuall sin . t. o how unhappy are the people that are seduced with these toyes , are you not ashamed ? c. i see you have learned of that man in lucian to cry out {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and to vilifie that argument you cannot answer , and besides that , i see nothing that is shame-worthy . he hath answered nothing at all ( sayes one under the pulpit ) but shifts and denyes all . t. thou art an impudent , brazen-faced fellow , whosoever thou art , i have answered all , confuted all my adversaries books , and amongst them one of my greatest antagonists , i have turned mr. richard baxter the most of his arguments against himself . c. sir , let that worthy man alone who is absent , you are now to answer me . t. here is nothing to answer , is it not in the sixt verse , who so shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me ? were they not believers ? c. yes , the disciples were believers , which are here meant , and not the children ; which the grammaticall construction will tell you , for it is in the masculin gender , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , one of these little ones , meaning {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} disciple , not in the neuter gender to answer to {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , little child ; so that my argument remains unanswered . t. i am weary of this pedantrie , and looking upon his watch , said , i promised but one houre , and it s above foure houres ; with that he clapped his book together . [ t. j. ] good mr. tombes ( says an anabaptist ) continue a little longer for satisfaction of the people ; he gave no answer , but put on his hat . c. well , sir , i will not press you any further now , i should have urged john . . rom. . and other places , to prove infants church-membership , and have come to the second and third branches of mine argument , that christ merited it for them , and infants stand in need of baptism ; but those i must leave to another opportunitie ; therefore i desire that we may have a set day about a month hence , seeing i was hurryed to this extemporall discourse through importunitie . t. no , i will have no more dealing with you , unless it be by writing , that what both of us shall set down , may be read in the publick congregation . mark . . , . . and he said unto them , go ye into all the world , & preach the gospel to every creature . . he that beleeveth , and is baptized , shall be saved , but he that beleeveth not , shall be damned . these two verses hold out the rich charter of the gospel , which our saviour delivered to the apostles after his resurrection ; the parts are two , first a precept , in the former verse , go ye into all the world , and preach the gospel to every creature ; secondly a promise , with a commination in the latter , he that beleeveth , and is baptized , shall be saved ; but he that beleeveth not , shall be damned . in the precept , we have two particulars , first a mission , he sends them , go ye into all the world ; secondly a commission , he authorizes them , and preach the gospel to every creature . in the latter verse , or promise , we have first the thing promised , layd down affirmatively , shall be saved ; secondly the qualification , and that either absolute , he that beleveth , or conditional , and is baptized ; he that beleeveth , and is baptized , shall be saved ; or a commination shall be damned , with a qualification negative , and absolutely without any limitation , he that beleeveth not , he that beleeveth not shall be damned . wee l only hint at the former verse for introduction to the latter . and he said , ( that is christ , ) observe , that it is only god , christ god and man , that can give mission , or commission to preach , and ordain sacraments . math. . . all power is given me in heaven and earth , go ye therefore , and teach all nations . go ye into all the world , there is the largeness of their commission , to all the world , as he , to all nations as matthew . hence observe , the apostles , and by them the evangelists , had an extraordinary commission which extended through the world , but our commission ordinarily is limited to certain places ; true it is , there may be itinerants upon special occasions , ( and they also confined within their verges , ) but as doctor buckeridge observes well when christ speaks to apostles , he says , go ye into all the world , but when to ordinary pastors , and teachers {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} he fixed some to be pastors , and some teachers . and preach the gospel to every creature , there is the commission , wherein we have first the act preach , that is proclame , secondly the object of the gospel , which in the original , and other languages signifies good news , or a good speech ; from the connexion between the mission and commission comming from the same authour christ , and extended to the same persons , the apostles , and their successours , observe , that none may preach as church officers , but they that are sent in a gospel way ; our adversary in the common cause spoke so home to this , that we need not press it further . the last thing is the extent of the commission , and that a very large one , unto every creature , as here , to all nations , as matthew . now the quaere will be , what is meant by every creature ? some limit it to every rational creature , angels , men , devils , as origen , & his misericordes doctores who held the devils and reprobates should be saved ; but that cannot be ; for . pet. . . they are cast down to hell , and reserved to judgement . some more strictly restrain it only to man , and that when he is come to age , and understanding , excluding children ; this is too strict , true it is , infants are not capable to be taught of men , but they may be taught of god ; they cannot actually understand the gospel , but they may actually receive the benefit of the gospel ; a noble mans child hath interest in his fathers patent , and pardon ; a sucking infant ( though he knows it not ) may be joined in a lease with the parents . some extend it , and it is conceived more fitly according to the letter , without any synecdoche , or figure , to every creature , as if he should say , go and proclame the benefit that comes by christ to every creature ; for as by the first adam all creatures were accursed , so by christ the second adam , all creatures shall be blessed , rom. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} every creature groans , desiring to be delivered into the glorious liberty of the sons of god , answerable to this , preach the gospel {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to every creature , telling them , that they are now by christ to be delivered into the glorious liberty of the sons of god . object . but the creature cannot hear , nor understand . answ. it s true not properly , no more could john baptist in his mothers womb , and yet {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the babe sprang for joy ; nay the holy ghost ascribes a hearing to the creature , hosea . . and it shall come to pass in that day saith the lord , i will hear the heavens , and they shall hear the earth , and the earth shall hear the corn , and the wine , and the oyl , and they shall hear jezreel . hence observe , that every creature in a sense is sensible of the benefit they have by christ ; but every one in their kind , men come to years , and discretion , are capable of actual understanding , actual profession , actual faith ; infants only in actu primo , are capable of the first seeds of understanding , of profession of faith , which will shew it self in the fruits when they come to years ; the rest of our fellow creatures as by a natural instinct they groan for the curse , so by an other instinct , they lift up their heads in expectation of the blessing , and that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , with an earnest expectation , or a stretched out neck as the word in the original signifies , rom. . thus we have paraphrased upon the first verse for introduction to the second , wherein is first , a consolatory promise , he that beleeveth , and is baptized , shall be saved ; secondly a comminatorie curse , he that beleeveth not , shall be damned . in the former , we have first the qualification , and that either absolute , he that beleeveth , or conditional , and is baptized . q. now the quaere will be , what belief is here meant ? sol. first the event tells us , that belief that saves us , he that believes shall be saved . secondly the opposition , its contrary to that unbelief that damns ; observe that a saving faith is necessary to salvation , without faith it is impossible to please god , all they , and only they that have a saving faith shall be saved ; so that you see that faith is a necessary , and absolute condition . and is baptized , that is upon supposition , if baptism conveniently may be had ; hence observe , that baptism is not absolutely necessary by necessity of means ( as they call it ) as if none could be saved without it , but by necessity of precept , if conveniently it may be had . the israelites for forty years in the wilderness were not circumcised . bernard , that saw not all things could see this , that , non absentia sed contemplus sacramenti damnat , not the want , but the contempt of the sacrament damns : valentinian the emperour dyed , as he was going to be baptized in jordan , and ambrose being asked what he thought of him , answered , that he was baptizatus volo , & voluntate , etiamsi non reverà aquae lavacro , baptized inwardly with wish , and will , though not outwardly with the laver of water , austin is conceived here to be mistaken , who denyed salvation to infants un-baptized , hence he is called durus pater infantum , a hard father of infants ; and many of the doctors of the church of rome , who hold that infants that dye un-baptized , are kept in limbo infantum in a purgatory of infants , where they shall never behold the beatifical vision . object . but here is first placed beleeving , and then baptized , so that from the order of placing the words , some would gather that we are first to beleeve before we be baptized . answ. that will not follow ; for mark . . there is placed first baptizing , and then preaching , and repentance after , whence they might as well gather that we must be baptized , before we can hear the word preached , or repent ; repentance in scripture is oft placed before faith , and yet is a fruit , and effect of faith ; some of the evangelists place judas his receiving of the sop before the sacrament , some after it ; it is a rule in interpreting of holy writ , that scriptura nescit prius , & posterius , the scripture does not alwaies observe the precise order in which things were done . q. but i beseech you consider what faith it is that is here meant ? sol. a saving faith ; must then a saving faith be the rule of our baptism ? and must we baptize none , but of those we know have a saving faith ; then we must baptize none at all ; never any minister upon that ground had ever commission to baptize any , no not the apostles , for they did not infallibly know that those they baptized had a saving faith ; nay they actually baptized many that were hypocrites , as simon magus , alexander , hymeneus , philetus , and others ; hence observe , that no rule for baptizing in general can be gathered out of this text , and to say that none are to be baptized , but they that have a saving faith , which is the faith that is only here meant , or none but they which make an outward profession of faith ( which is not here meant ) is an untruth not gatherable from this scripture , and an adding to the word of god , against which he hath proclamed a solemn curse . the commination , or curse follows in the last words , he that beleeveth not , shall be damned ; he does not say , he that is not baptized shall be damned . for though the contempt of it is dangerous , yet a man may be saved without baptism ; he does not say that he that is not dipped over head is damned , that is a thing indifferent , any washing in the name of the father , son , and holy ghost , is baptism ; he does not say , that he that is not re-baptized , or baptized again , is damned , for that is the invention of man , never heard of ( in that sense ) before john of leydens time , who confessed at his execution , that he had that , and the rest of his poysoned doctrine from satan . hence observe , that all unbelievers , though baptised , shall be damned ; men beleeving though ( through invincible necessity ) un-baptized , shall be saved ; thus we have given you the lively meaning of the holy ghost in the text . having layd this foundation , wee 'l make further inquirie into two things which are in controversie , first what is meant by baptism , or baptizing , secondly whether infants ought to be baptized , or no . first , baptism in the original , signifies nothing but a washing , as pareus upon the hebrews says , baptismus graecis est quaevis ablutio , baptism is in greek any washing , whether by dipping , or sprinkling , to baptize is to dip , or sprinkle says , ravenel ; so says the churches old catechism dipped , or sprinkled in the name of the father , son , and holy ghost ; so the directory , baptize the child , by powring , or sprinkling of the water on the face of the child , without adding any further ceremony . and as many kinds there are of washing , so many there are of baptizing , whereof the pillars of the greek tongue , hesichius , budeus , stephanus , scapula , arius montanus , pasor , mention four ; first tingere , to die , or tincture , secondly mergere , to drown , or plunge , thirdly madefacere , to wet , or moysten , and lastly abluere , to wash , or clense . i confess there are some that distinguish betwixt {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to rantise ( as they call it ) or sprinkle , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} which is to plunge to the bottom , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} which is to swim upon the top , and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which is , as they criticise upon it , to swim betwixt the top , and bottom ; these three last are mentioned by casaubon in his notes upon the third chapter of st. mathew , as was quoted by our adversary , but with what fidelitie , or advantage to his cause , i leave it to the godly , and learned to judge , for he left out the last words , wherein the whole state of the question is determined by casaubon against him , for thus he concludes , horum sententia jampridem meritò est explosa , &c. the judgement of those men is deservedly long since exploded , and trampled down , that would have baptizing to be by dipping , and he gives a reason , quum non in eo posita sit mysterii hujus vis , & {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , seeing the force , and efficacy of baptism , this mysterie , consists not in that , that is the manner of washing . which is confirmed by aquinas , immersio non est de necessitate baptismi , dipping is not of the necessity of baptism , and dominico sotus , ablutio est de essentiâ baptismi , washing is of the essence of baptism , but the manner of washing , whether by dipping , powring , or sprinkling , is accidental . many places of scripture confirm this , cor. . . there the israelites were baptized in the red sea , when their feet did but touch the water , not as if they were baptized , when they were not ( as the ana baptists gloss upon this place ) and that the egyptians were really baptized , for the egyptians were not baptized in their sense , but sunk to the bottom like stones . exod. . . baptized under the cloud , not that the egyptians were baptized , and the israelites as if they were ( as they descant ) under the cloud , for the egyptians were never under the cloud , for the israetites went before the egyptians , and the cloud , part of it was over the israelites , part of it went before them . there is mention made in the gospel of baptizing , or washing of themselves when they came from market , of cups , of vessels , of tables , which cannot be meant of plunging , in water , so often , where that element was so scarce , but rincing . johns baptizing in jordan , philips going down to the river with the eunuch proves nothing at all ; for what strange consequence would this be , especially from the anabaptists ( that must have express scripture for all things ) john baptized in jordan , philip went down into the water with the eunuch , therefore , they were dipped , seeing it might as well be by powring , or sprinkling of water upon them , for any thing that appears out of the text . object . john baptized in enon , because there was much water . answ. this will seem to be no wonder in those hot countries , where there are many miles without a spring of water , especially seeing geographers , and travellers tells us , that enon is a little brook that one may stride over , scarce knee deep , and therefore not capable of dipping . object . but baptism , say they , must resemble the death of christ , rom. . . we are buryed with him by baptism , which is not by sprinkling , but dipping . answ. i answer , the scope of the place is to shew , that one end of our baptism is to seal our communion with christ in his death , but to press a necessity of resemblance by descending into the water , and comming out again , we see no ground in text , and if our abiding under the water must answer christs burial in exact representation , then as christ lay three days , and three nights in the grave , so they must lye three days , and three nights under the water , which if it were put in execution , the dispute would quickly be at an end . but should we grant this resemblance , i appeal to any man , whether our powring on of water in baptism , does not more resemble our christian burial , which is by powring on of earth , or dust , than by plunging over head . thus you see it proved , that baptizing is any kind of washing , in the name of the father , son , and holy ghost ; we do not deny with master perkins , that if we were to baptize converted turks , or pagans of ripe age , in hot countries , we might baptize them by dipping , provided that their garments were not first baptized , or washed , for that is conceived to be no less superstition , than baptizing of bells ; baptism ( says vossius ) non est immersio vestium , sed humani corporis , is not a washing of the garments , but of the body ; we account the church of rome idolaters , for presenting that worship , first to the image , which is terminated in christ ; the garments are first washed , or dipped , and the body but at the most wet , or moystned through them . but to affirm that no baptism but that which is by dipping is lawful , is a will-worship , much more , that baptism otherwise is a nullitie , and those that are baptized so , ought to be baptized again , or re-baptized , which the senate of syrick understood well , when they made an act , that all that did presume to re-baptize such as were baptized before , should be drowned . so we have resolved the former doubt , that baptizing is not dipping , and come to the latter , that infants may , nay ought to be baptized . and ( brethren ) i beseech you to give me leave a little to speak for infants , those poor souls , that cannot speak for themselves . and before we come to the question , take with you these two considerations ; first , that those truths that were not in controversie in the primitive times , the apostles were not so punctual in pressing of them , seeing there was no need ; solon being asked why he made no law against murtherers of parents , answer'd , because he conceiv'd none would commit that unnatural act ; if the apostles had been asked , why they did not put down infant-baptism in plainer terms , i suppose they would have answered , that they thought none would have denyed it . secondly observe , that those things that are pressed often in the old testament , are mentioned more sparingly in the new , as the sabbath , and magistracy in the old testament , line upon line , and precept upon precept , but scarce a syllable for a christian sabbath , or a christian magistracie in the new . nothing is more clear then infants church-membership in the old testament , therefore not so clear in the new , and yet clear enough to those that have eyes to see it , as will appear by these reasons following . . arg. first , those that are in covenant with god , ought to have the seal of the covenant , which is baptism . but infants of beleeving parents are in covenant with god . therefore infants ought to have the seal of the covenant , which is baptism . the former proposition is firm by confession of all divines , even our adversaries , haec est fundamentalis ratio paedobaptismi ( sayes daneus ) this is the fundamentall reason of baptizing of infants , that they are in covenant , esse foederatum sufficit ad accipiendum signum foederis , sayes davenant , to be in covenant is sufficient to receive the signe , and seal of the covenant , omnes foederati sunt baptizandi , sayes wendel , all that are in covenant are to be baptized , si in foedere sunt , impiè agunt , qui eis signum foederis negant , saith ferus , if they be in covenant , they do wickedly that deny them the signe of the covenant ; in a civill contract ( sayes mr perkins ) the father , and the heir make but one person , and the covenant 's for himself and his posterity . the minor proposition that infants of believing parents are in covenant , is grounded on many scriptures , genes . . . where god establishes a covenant , not only with abraham , but with his seed after him in their generations , for an everlating covenant , everlasting , and therefore to last to the end of the world ; as cornelius à lapide sayes , absolutè aeternum est in semine spirituali fidelibus , it is absolutely everlasting in the spirituall seed to the faithfull . galat. . the scripture foreseeing that god would justifie the heathen through faith , preached before the gospel to abraham ; therefore if isaac was in covenant with his father when he was but eight dayes old , and had the seal by vertue of the lamb to be slain , much more the children of believing parents , by vertue of the lamb that is already slain . deutero . . . when all the people stood in covenant before the lord , their little ones are mentioned amongst the rest , which is further confirmed , acts . , . be baptized every one of you , for the promise is to you , and your children ; to say that they were not yet believers , is but a shift , the text makes it cleer , as soon as they were believers , their children were in covenant with them , and to be baptized . arg. . such as were circumcised under the law , may be baptized under the gospell . but infants of believers were circumcised under the law . therfore they may baptized under the gospel . huic argumento non omnes anabaptistae resistent ( sayes learned whitaker ) all the anabaptists shall not be able to resist this argument ; the minor , that infants under the law were circumcised , is confessed . the former proposition is onely questioned , that baptism under the gospel to infants , does not necessarily follow from circumcision under the law ; augustin is cleer for it , saying , mutatis signis manet eadem gratia sine aetatis discrimine , the outward visible signes being changed , the same grace remaines without any difference of age , and he gives a reason , because the grace of god is not straiter in the new testament than in the old ; therefore christ , hebr. . . is said to be mediator of a better covenant , but how were it a better covenant , if all poor infants that were in covenant under the law , were out of covenant under the gospel ? titus . . the grace of god hath appeared unto all , and therefore surely to infants ; as ireneus sayes , christus pro parvulis parvulus factus est , christ becam a little one , for little ones sake , that he might redeem the little ones . little ones were the first martyrs that suffered for christ , in rama , was a voice heard ; and that baptism came in place of circumcision , the apostle cleares it , coloss. . , . ye are circumcised with circumcision made without hands ; how is that ? buryed with him in baptism . hence arises another argument . arg. . those that were once in covenant , had the seal of the covenant , and were never disfranchized , and put out of covenant , have title to the covenant , and seal of it still . but infants were once in covenant , had the seal of the covenant , and were never disfranchized , and put out of covenant , therefore infants have title to the covenant , and seal of it still . let any man shew one syllable , one tittle in scripture , that ever infants were put out , and wee l yield the gantlet ; nay , the gospell is so far from expressing of them that they are put out , that it gives them large commendations beyond them of riper years , making them the rule of our perfection , as new born babes , receive the sincere milk of the word . unless you be as little children , ye shall not enter into the kingdom of god ; which is a case so cleer , that even bellarmine him self encludes , nullum est impedimentum , &c. there is nothing that hinders , but that infants may as well be baptized under the gospell , as they were circumcised under the law ; for neither hath god forbidden ministers to give them this sacrament , neither are they uncapable to receive it . arg. . that which god hath commanded may lafully be practised by the ministers of jesus christ . but god hath , commanded infant-baptism . therefore it may lawfully be practised by the ministers of jesus christ . that god hath ommanded it , appears , matth. . . go baptize all nations ; it s a generall command , and ( as aquinas sayes ) posito generali mandato pars ejus negari non potest , a generall command being given , no part of it can be denyed ; infants are a part of nations , and included in them . object . but here is no mention made of infants . answ. no , nor of them of age ; we might retort it upon our adversaries , there is no mention made of dippers , no , nor of them that are to be dipped , therefore they ought not to dip , nor be dipped . generals include particulars in all lawes ; psalm . . praise the lord all ye nations , nations includes old men , and babes , young men , and maids , all without exception , as another psalm interprets it . now if infants be excepted , contrary to that saying of saint ambrose , qui dixit omnes , nullum excepit , neque parvulos , &c. he that commanded all to be baptized , excepnone , no , not little ones . if ( i say ) they be excepted , it s either because they are not named , or because we never read in scripture that any infants were baptized , or , because they are not capable ; ( that fourth cavill , being the same with the third , i le take away anon ) but for none of these three ; therefore infants are not excepted from baptism . not for the first , because they are not named , for so neither old men , nor nobles , nor ministers are named . not because we read not of their baptism , so we neither read of the baptism of the apostles , nor of the virgin mary , yet we piously believe that they were baptized ; de negatione facti ad jus non valet consequentia , such a thing is not mentioned , that it was done ; therfore it was not done , or was not done , therefore it ought not to have been done , is no consequence ; christ did , and said many things that are not written ; so did his apostles . not for the third , because they are uncapable , which is denyed ; for if infants be uncapable , it is either because they have not repentance , and faith in act , which cannot hinder them ; christ was baptized , had not repentance , for he had no sin to repent of , had not faith , for faith presupposeth one lost in himself , that depends upon another for salvation , christ is that rock of salvation , upon whom all mankind being lost depends ; neither because they cannot hear the word preached ; then they that are born deaf should be excluded from baptism ; or because they are not otherwise qualified ; but that cannot hinder them , for god requires no more of them that are in covenant , and born of believing parents , but a pure capacity , and receptability , which divines call potentiam objectivam ; as god in the beginning created the world of nothing , so in the beginning of the new creature he does regenerat , and recreate us of nothing ; upon this account it is , that we read of many whole families baptized , not excluding , but rather including infants , cornelius was baptized with his houshold , acts . , . lydea , and her houshold , acts . . crispus , and all his house , acts . . and the houshold of stephanus , corinth . . . the jayler {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , all that were his , acts . , . his servants , his children ; for can we imagine so many families without a child ? arg. . they that are capable of the kingdom , and the blessing , which is the greater , are capable of baptism , which is the lesser . but infants are capable of the kingdom , and the blessing , which is the greater . therefore they are capable of baptism which is the lesser ; forbid not ( sayes our saviour ) little children to come unto me , for unto such belongs the kingdom of god ; for surely , if the kingdom of heaven receive them , the church may not exclude them ; for the church must receive such as glory receives , acts . . there were daily added to the church such as should be saved . now for proof of this argument , take these places , mark . . . to . mark . . . , . matth. . , , . matth. . , , . luke . , . luke . , . which tho they be spoken upon severall occasions , all prove infants to be church-members , and capable both of grace , and glory ; wee l instance in two , jesus called a little child unto him , the word is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which ( as hippocrates in his distinction of ages sayes , and beza seconds him , ) signifies a child under seven years , and set him in the middest of them , and said , verily i say unto you , except ye be converted , and become as little children , that is , endevour to be free from actuall sin , as they are , ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven . the other is that of s. luke . . wherein observe , first a precept , suffer little children to come unto me . secondly , we have a prohibition , and forbid them not . thirdly , his displeasure against his disciples , for hindring them from coming to him , he looked on this act with indignation , and was much displeased at it . fourthly , he adds a reason why little ones should be brought to him , because to such belongs the kingdom of god , that is , the kingdom of grace here , and glory hereafter ; they are visible members of his church , and kingdom , and therefore none may hinder their access to him . fiftly , he confirmes this reason , à majori , from the greater to the less , gods kingdom doth not onely belong to them , but i tell you more , whosoever will come into this kingdom , must resemble infants in innocency , humility , simplicity . sixtly , he adds his benediction of them , he took them up in his arms , put his hands upon them , and blessed them ; and tells us that their angels alwayes see the face of his father , which is in heaven ; and the danger of them that offend one of these little ones ; and all this recorded by three evangelists , matthew , mark , luke , as if it were of purpose to check the sacrilegious insolencie of these latter times that denyes them the seal . christ is not more punctuall by his spirit , in declaring his own birth , passion , resurrection , than he is in this precious truth so much trampled under foot . and if any object , these were not young children , the text easily confutes them , they were {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . children under seven yeares of age , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , children that could scarce speak , they did not lead them , but {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , they carried them unto him ; christ is said twice in s. mark , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to take them up in his armes , and embrace them ; christ was already instructing the people that were able to understand , the apostles were offended for bringing of children which could not understand . well then , doth christ take children in his armes , and would he have them all put out of his visible church ? would he have us receive them in his name , and yet not to receive them into his visible church , nor as his disciples ? how can infants be received in christs name , if they belong not visibly to him , and his church ? nay , doth christ account it a receiving of himself , and shall we then refuse to receive them , or acknowledge them the subjects of his visible kingdom ? will it not follow then that whosoever refuseth them , refuseth christ , and him that sent him ? for my part ( to use the words of a godly , and learned divine ) seeing the will of christ is that i must walk by , and his word that i must be judged by , and he hath given me so full a discovery of his will in this point , i will boldly adventure to follow his rule , and had rather answer him upon his own incouragement for admitting an hundred infants into his church , than answer for keeping out of one . argument . all disciples may be baptized . but infants of believing parents are disciples . therefore some infants may be baptized . the major , or former proposition , is granted by our adversaries , who translate that place , matth. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , go make disciples of all nations , which is in our last translation , go teach all nations , confessing , as soon as they are disciples they may be baptized . now for the minor , that infants are disciples , is evident from acts . . why , tempt yee god , and put a yoak upon the neck of the disciples ? this yoak was circumcision , and the attendants of it , as will appear by comparing it with the fift verse , and the context from the beginning of the chapter . now among the jews , children were only to be circumcised , and amongst the gentiles , children together with parents when they were converted , and became proselites . to say that not only circumcision , but the doctrine , and observation of the whole law , by the yoak is meant , is but a shift ; circumcision was the seal , or ordinance by which the jews were bound to observe the doctrine , and the law , and all those upon whom the yoak was layd by circumcision , are called disciples ; whereof infants were a great part . and if it be objected , that children are not capable of instruction , as it is nothing to the purpose , so it contradicts scripture , esay . . and all thy children shall be taught of the lord , and great shall be the peace of thy children . and if any one carnally interpret this of the jews return from captivity , as they do other places of esa. our saviour checks them , john . . and it is written in the prophets , and they shall all be taught of god . arg. . all that have faith may be baptized . but some infants have faith . therefore some infants may be baptized . the proposition none will deny , the minor may be proved by severall reasons . first , christ expresly calls them believers , matth. . he attributes humility to them , and faith ; and commands elders to imitate them ; and that you may see they were infants , mark . . tells us they were such as christ took up in his armes . secondly , they are said to receive the kingdom of god , mark . that is , the grace of god , remission of sins , and life eternall ; now the kingdom is not received , but by faith in christ . thirdly , they please god , therfore christ blesseth them ; but without faith it is impossible to please god . fourthly , either faith must be allowed them , or salvation denyed them ; but the latter is cruell , and impious ; therefore the former must be godly , and pious ; faith only purifies the heart , but no unclean thing shall enter into heaven . fiftly , tho infants cannot make actuall profession of faith , yet they may have inward roots of sanctification , and faith . john baptist and jeremie were sanctified in their mothers wombs ; let carnalists say what they will , that is the principal meaning of that place , esay . . there shall be no more an infant of days ; the jews thought they were not sanctified , unless a sabbath went over them ; the child shall dy an hundred year old , that is , as well in covenant with god , or a visible church-member , as if he were a hundred years old . therefore pareus sayes , infantes ecclesiae etiam ante baptismum censentur sideles ; infants of the church , even before baptism , are judged faithfull . hommius sayes , infants have faith , in semine , in the seed , tho not in messe , in the harvest ; beza sayes , they have faith {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , in power , tho not {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , in operation . faith ( says treleatius ) is twofold ; . active which the elder have by hearing the word . . passive , and by imputation , which infants have by vertue of the covenant , and divine promise . pelagius asks austin where he places infants baptized ? he answers , in numero credentium , in the number of believers , and addes , nec judicare ullo modo aliter audebis , si non vis esse apertè haereticus , neither may thou presume to judge otherwise , if thou wilt not be a plain heretick . wee l conclude this with that of vossius , as in naturals , so in supernaturals we must distinguish these three things , power , habit , and act ; there is the power of reasoning in infants , the habit in men sleeping , but the act , and exercise , in them that are waking ; the power answers the seed , the habit the tree , the act , and exercise , the fruit ; the seed of faith may be in infants , the habit in men of age , but the act , and exercise , in them that work according to the habit . . arg. those that are holy , with a covenant-holiness , may be baptized . but infants of beleeving parents are holy with a covenant-holiness . therefore infants of beleeving parents may be baptized . for the former proposition , foederatis competit signum foederis , ( says vossius ) the sign of the covenant belongs to them that are in covenant ; holiness is twofold ( says bullinger ) either of faith , or of the covenant . ezra . . . ye have mingled the holy seed , that is them in covenant , with the nations , that is them that are out of covenant . thus you see , that covenant-holiness is no gibberidge , but grounded upon scripture , and avouched by learned men : as shall more fully appear . the minor , that children of beleeving parents are holy with a covenant-holiness , is clear from cor. . . else your children were unclean , that is , not in covenant , but now they are holy , that is , in covenant , thus ( besides the ancients ) sharpius , and peter martyr interpret it , and hugo grotius himself , non loquitur apostolus de sanctitate naturali , &c. the apostle ( says he ) speaks not of natural holiness , and inhering to the nature of children , but of an holiness adhering to them , that is , the holiness of the covenant , for the children of beleevers are comprehended in the covenant of grace , and therefore accounted holy of god . to interpret it ( as the gross anabaptists do ) that they are holy , that is , no bastards , is a new holiness not heard of in scripture , and as ( doctor featly says ) a bastard exposition ; and pareus gives the reason , if the children of beleevers be therefore holy , because they are no bastards , the children of pagans are as well holy , for they are also no bastards . if the first-fruits be holy , the lump is holy , and if the root be holy , so are also the branches . rom. . . the first fruits and the root , that is the parents ; the lump , the branches , that is the children , and posterity . and , rom. . . if the jews were broken off , and the gentiles graffed into their place , it will follow , that if the jews were broken off , parents with children , then the gentiles shall be graffed in , parent with children . but the jews were broken off parents with children . therefore the gentiles shall be graffed in , parents with children . . arg. if infants should be out of covenant under the gospel , many dangerous absurdities would follow . first , infants would be losers by the comming of christ , and be put in a worse condition than the jewish infants were ; they with the parents were admitted to the seal of the covenant , which was circumcision , and not children with parents to baptism . secondly , if infants should be in covenant then , and not now , grace would be larger under the law , than under the gospel . thirdly , there would be no difference betwixt the child of a christian , and of a pagan , but all the infants of christians would be as vile as the children of turks , tartars , or cannibals . fourthly , they would be without god , without christ , without hope in the world ; not the children of god , but of the devil ; would all be damned , for out of covenant , and visible church ( ordinarily ) there is no salvation . . arg. lastly , that which hath continued since the apostles times with blessed success , must needs be lawful . but infant-baptism hath continued with blessed success since the apostles times . therefore infant baptism is lawful . wee l begin with the first centurie , or hundred years after christ . dionysius the areopagite whom the apostles converted at athens , says , holy men have received a tradition from the fathers , that is the apostles , to baptise infants . clemens ( who is recorded by some of the antients to succeed peter in his ministry at rome ) says {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , baptise your infants . ireneus ( who lived in the second century ) says , christus pro parvulis parvulus factus est , christ became a little one for little ones sake , that little ones might be received into covenant . origen that lived in the begining of the third century says , the church received a tradition from the apostles to baptize infants , and gives a reason , because they are born in impurity of sin ; nay pelagius , a great scholar , who lived in the latter end of this century , though he denyed original sin , yet confessed infant-baptism , for when they pressed him with this argument , if infants had not original sin what need they baptism , he answered , that christ appointed , and the church practised infant-baptism , not to purge sin by past , but to prevent it for the time to come . cyprian in the fourth century confirms it in his epistle to fidus , and gives an account of a council of sixty six bishops that decreed that infants should be baptized . ambrose says , because every age is lyable to sin , therefore every age is fit for the sacrament of baptism . nazianzene says it is better to seal infants with baptism , ( though they know it not ) then to leave them unsealed . austen is conceived to go too far , who denyed possibility of salvation to them that dyed un-baptized , pressing that place john . . except a man be born of water , and of the spirit , he cannot enter into the kingdom of god . the millevitan counsel in the fifth century decreed , that whosoever should deny that infants , even taken from their mothers wombs , might not be baptized , should be accursed . all churches , all ages since , agree in this ; the harmonies of confessions of all reformed churches , the church of england in the apologie , the old catechism , the twenty seventh article , the directory , the greater and lesser catechism composed by the assembly of divines , the late parliament by a further declaration , all confirm it ; the canons of our church did not only in former times declare , but the lawes of our land did punish anabaptists as hereticks . mr. fox in his acts and monuments approves of the albigenses , waldenses , wickliffists , lollards , poor men of lyons , brownists , barrowists , as members of the reformed churches , but wholly excludes the anabaptists , as erring fundamentally . i 'le say no more for confirmation of this polemicall discourse , but wind up all with a word of exhortation ; i beseech you brethren consider what a dangerous errour this is , that robbs the scripture of its truth , infants of their right , parents of their comforts , the church of its members , christ of his merits , god of his glory ; that is the mother of many other errours ; hence sprung the ranters , socinians , antitrinitarians , shakers , levellers , they that are above ordinances , antiscripturians ; an errour that god hath expressed many signall judgments against , as sleiden and gastius in germany , and some of our worthies in england have declared . as reverend mr. cotton tells one of his aposta●ed flock , that had his house burned , and his children in it , no wonder that fire seised upon his house , and god denyed water to quench it , who denyed that water should be brought to baptize his infants . secondly , consider that much benefit redounds both to parents , and children , by infant-baptism . first , much comfort comes hereby to the parents , when they consider gods free grace to them , and theirs , that he is not ashamed to be called their god , and the god of their seed after them . hebr. . . secondly , much benefit comes to infants by baptism , ( which the devill knowes well , when he causes witches to renounce their baptism , when they enter into covenant with him ) for they are thereby admitted into the bosome of the church , devoted , and consecrated unto god , his name is put upon them , they wear his royall badge , and by it they are distinguished from heathens . and this so clear from scriptures , truly , and spiritually understood , that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it . now the god of peace and truth , by his spirit , lead us into all truth , keep us pure , and unspotted in this houre of englands temptation , and triall , keep us faithfull to the death , that so we may receive a crown of life . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- and that by washing , as the proselytes and jews children were initiated . mr. cradock , and mr. walter . monmothshire . notes for div a e- {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or to the water . felo de se, or, mr. richard baxter's self-destroying manifested in twenty arguments against infant-baptism / gathered out of his own writing, in his second disputation of right to sacraments by john tombes. tombes, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing t ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) felo de se, or, mr. richard baxter's self-destroying manifested in twenty arguments against infant-baptism / gathered out of his own writing, in his second disputation of right to sacraments by john tombes. tombes, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by henry hills ..., london : . imperfect: pages stained. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library, new york. eng baxter, richard, - . infant baptism -- early works to . baptists -- controversial literature. a r (wing t ). civilwar no felo de se. or, mr. richard baxter's self-destroying; manifested in twenty arguments against infant-baptism, gathered out of his own writing tombes, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion felo de se. or , mr. richard baxters self-destroying ; manifested in twenty arguments against infant-baptism , gathered out of his own writing , in his second disputation of right to sacraments . by john tombes , b. d. psalm . , . so they shall make their own tongues to fall upon themselves : all that see them shall flee away . and all men shall fear , and shall declare the work of god , for they shall wisely consider of his doings . london : printed by henry hills , next door to the sign of the peacock in aldersgate-steeet , . to the christian reader . master richard baxter in his second disputation of right to sacraments , begins thus ; it may seem strange that after . years use of christian baptism , the ministers of the gospel should be yet unresolved , to whom it doth belong ; yet so it is . and i observe that it is a question , that they are now very sollicitous about , and i cannot blame them , it being not onely about a matter of divine appointment , but a practical of such concernment to the church . the true reason hereof seems to be , that ministers have for many ages left the true baptism of believers which christ appointed , and like michal , instead of it have substituted an image or idol of their own , to wit , infant baptism , which being quite besides the rule of christ , matth. . . mark . . and the apostles practice throughout the acts of the apostles , they have been at a loss about the ground of it , and almost at daggers drawing about the use of it . as it happens to fellow-travellers , when they are all out of the right way , one conjectures this way they should go , another that , and sometimes they are at hot disputos and contentions about their way , and many by-ways are attempted , yet still the farther they go the more out of the way , till they come into the road again : so it hath been with baptizers of infants ; they are fallen into many new devices to maintain infant baptism , the ancients with the papists imagining that by it gods grace was given , and that it was necessary to save the child from perishing , the lutherans that by baptism a seed of faith and some relative grace was given to infants ( to which doctor samuel ward , bishop davenant , doctor cornelius burges , master thomas bedford , master james cranford , and others have of late much inclined ) others opposing these have fallen into as bad conceits of the covenant of gospel grace , as made to a believer and his seed , baptisms succession to jewish circumcision , and fetching a rule from thence , as others from the jewish baptism . master baxter having found these unsafe to rest on , sub they will bring the assertors to the avouching jewish tenets , hath devised another ( as he conceives ) more refined and subtile way , making infants disciples of christ mediately by the parents , or proparents ( as his new term is ) faith ( which he never proves ) and an imagined ordinance or law of infants visible church-membership ( no where extant ) unrepealed , and in following these by-ways , they have been at variance among themselves . tertullian , and gregory nazianzen onely allowing infant baptism in case of manifest danger of imminent death , others to take away original sin , baptizing all , weak or strong , believers or unbelievers children ; which had almost quite thrust baptism of believers out of the world , and under colour of christening , ( as they fasly term their infant baptism ) and making christian souls by throwing water on them , they have so polluted the churches of god with the dregs of the nations , i mean , innumerable ignorant , scandalous , prophane , superstitious haters , scorners , and persecutors of christianity , that nothing but the mighty power of god is sufficient to purge the churches of god of that loathsome and infectious filth , which these have brought into it . the papists themselves do in a sort confess that infant baptism is an aberration from the first rule , in that they count it not perfect till their mimical , and ludicrous sacrament of confirmation be added , which was used with some reformation in respect of the right , and disclaiming of some errours affixed to it , and with the appointment of catechizing by the late bishops , and from them termed bishopping , though without any remarkable emendation of the intrusion of ignorant , ungodly , unchristian persons into the society of christians and the lords supper . some of those who of late have sought reformation herein , begin to devise how they may remedy this evil , and yet keep the multitude in their communion , by refining that which is called confirmation . to this purpose , lately is published by master jonathan hanmer , an exercitation or confirmation , to which master george hughes , master richard baxter , and master ralph venning , have prefixed their epistles ; concerning which , how he is mistaken in the laying on of hands used by the ancients , and the application of heb. . . to confirmation after infant baptism , is perceptible by sect. . of the second part of my review , and sundry passages in his own book , in which many things besides are vented without proof , about difference between the church of infants and adult members , of the effect of confirmation , of compleat and incompleat visible church-members , &c. the errors of which it is unnecessary to refute , there being no proof of them offered , but his own and other divines mistakes , and the main of the design being to set up another humane inventi●n , which hath no precept or promise of god , that he may uphold or colour over an old corruption . it pleased god lately to begin to bring the truth concerning baptism of believers to light in this nation , which stirred up many to contend for infant baptism , and having , as they imagined ( though the three parts of my review now published do sufficiently shew they are deceived ) made that sure , they have of late fallen to dispute whose infants are to be baptized . mr. thomas hooker , mr. cobbet , mr. firmin , and others , pleading against the baptism of the infants of the national and parochial church-members , and some of them restraining it to infants of inchurched church-members , and those who are judged to be real visible saints , have been opposed by master rutherford , master cawdery , master blake , and others . master blake to maintain his tenet , hath asserted that a dogmatical faith intitles to baptism : to oppose which , master baxter , however in his letter to me he pretends the unpleasantness and non-necessity of meddling any more about the point of infant baptism , the want of time and health for work of greater moment , that he might decline ●●●●ing where his law of infants visible church-membership unrepealed is , and thinks a man cannot justifie it to lay out the hundreth part , or perhaps the thousandth part of his time , study , talk , or zeal , upon this question , yet here he blames not them that are sollicitous about it , being of divine appointment and practical , of such concernment to the church , and hath himself , besides his apology before this last year , published a large book of disputations concerning right ●o sacraments , the second whereof is against master blake ; which though it was intended onely to overthrow his tenet , yet indeed the middle terms and proofs of his arguments do beat down his own tenet of infant baptism , and direct into the right way of restoring believers baptism , to demonstrate which , that those who have adhered to mr. baxter may see how ill master baxter hath dealt with them , and may , if god give them wisdom to discern the truth , be brought into the right way of believers baptism , is this writing framed , in which thou hast presented to thee , a remarkable instance of gods providence , in clearing truth by the pen of its most eminent adversary , and of his he●●●le●● writing , not observing how his own arguments against another sight against himself . the urging thereof , is that way which logicians●●prove of , and against the person is ever counted a good plea to argue for his own condemnation out of his own mouth , and in this matter is good as to the thing , it being not onely asserted by him , but also largely proved . in the publishing hereof the●e is no more wrong done to him , then was done by bishop morton in his apology , in aliedging the romanists words in their writings , as an advoca●e for the protestants , against themselves , but much right to the truth and church of god ; nothing i●●ere set down as his but his own words , what is added be may discern'd by the different letor some other mark . his caution , that he means his propositions in the case of baptism of adult persons , and that he hath elsewhere proved infant baptism , are without wrong to him left out , sith his arguments do as strongly prove there should be none but adult baptism , as that none should be baptized upon the profession of a bare dogmatical faith ; for though his aim be onely to prove that the faith professed which intitles to baptism must be justifying , yet his arguments to prove this prove more , that none but such as profess such faith are to be baptized , and that this profession is to be by each baptized in his own person , and no other to be baptized . not one text he brings proves that a parents or proparents profession doth intitle to baptism ; what he hath disputed elsewhere for infant baptism is all now answered and published in the three parts of my review ; no where doth he prove ( though that is it be should chiefly have proved ) that in order to baptism a parents or proparents profession is by god allowed as the infants own , but still be supposeth it , which is the main point to be proved , which logicians know is of all fallacies the grossest , to wit , the begging of the question . yet lately master baxter hath printed a book about confirmation , in which he dictates many things which he should prove , of infant visible church-members and their priviledges , and repeats his ol● arguments for infant baptism , and acknowledging onely his sorrow for provoking words , saith he will give some account , and in his preface to his book of justification tells the reader , he shall yet vindicate his papers written to me , where he gives some reason also of printing my animadversions on his aphorisms of justification . his sorrow for his provoking words is some good sign of gods touching his heart , and so far as belong to my person i heartily forgive him , though they have been extreamly injurious to me , to the tr●th and church of god . and for my animadversions he hath now printed , he may understand that i intend ( if god vouchsafe me life , and strength , and leisure ) to shew the insufficiency of his answers . if he give an account and vindicate his papers , i expect he should do it otherwise then he did in his praefestinantis morator , and his usual fashion is . let him do that which becomes a replicant , set down mine own words to which he answer , and answer them fully and distinctly without interrogations & exclamations , proving such distinctions , definitions , assertions , expositions , as i deny , and making good by solid proof his arguments , which that learned man mentioned in my preface to the third part of my review counted not like an argument for infant baptism , and allows me to tell him , that if he will choose his best argument , he is ready to demonstrate his censure of his book to have been just . in the mean time i judge it necessary that this book be printed , that if god shall vouchsafe him such mercy he may understand his error from his own writing , and the reader may judge whether the lord doth not now abundantly refute infant baptism , and require him to practise that command of christ of being baptized after believing , which however now reproached , was by all christians observed heretofore with much zeal and conscience of their duty and honor , and is commended to him from christ and his apostles . remember the words of christ , john ▪ . if ye love me keep my commandments . luke . . and why call ye me lord lord , and do not the things which i say ? matth. . . in vain do they worship me , teaching for doctrines the commandments of men . farewel . london , th . moneth , the . day , . thine in our lord , john tombes . felo de se. master baxter of right to sacraments , disp. . pag. . argum. . if we must not baptize any who profess not true repentance , then must we not baptize any infants ; but the antecedent is true . therefore , &c. the consequence of the major , is manifest , sith this proposition on which it depends , infants profess not true repentance , is manifest by sense . the antecedent is easily proved from scripture , and i know not whether any protestant deny it . i prove . that repentance , . and such as is proper to the effectually called is necessary to be professed by all that we may baptize ; i will joyn the proof of both together . argum. . if john baptist required the profession of true repentance in men before he would baptize them , then so must we : but john did so , therefore the consequence is clear . . for either john● baptism and christs were the same , as most of our divines against the papists do maintain ( though zanchy , and some few more follow the judgement of the ancient doctors in this ) or as calvin institut , saith , the difference seems to be but this , that john baptized them into the messiah to come , and the apostles into the name of the messiah already come . . or if the difference be greater we may argue a fortiori , from the more forcible : if johns baptism required a profession of repentance , then much more christs ; for certainly christ required not less then john , not did he take the impenitent into his kingdom whom john excluded . the antecedent i prove . . from mark . , . he preached , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins . and doubless that repentance which is in remissionem pecatorum , unto the remission of sins , is true special repentance . one of our divines , and many of the papists have sound another evasion : that is , that john did engage them to repent , but not requiring a profession of repentance as foregoing baptism ; but this is against the whole current of expositors , ancient and modern , and . against the plain scope of the text . the words in matth. . are [ they were baptized of him in jordan , confessing their sins ] this confession was with , yea before their baptism ; and this confession was the profession of repentance that john required . maldonate on the text , having first railed at calvin and slandered him , as turning baptism into preaching , ( as if he had expounded johns baptizing , not of water baptism but preaching , when he onely shews that both should go together ) doth tell the protestants that they cannot prove by this text that confession went before baptism , because it is named after ; but that he might not seem utterly impudent , he confesseth that the thing is true , and that is the sense of the text , and this he confesseth because he must rather be a faithful expositor , then a subtile adversary . and if any should say that it 's onely confession that 's required , which is no certain sign of true repentance , i answer : when john saith ▪ if we confess our sins , he is faithfull and just to forgive us our sins ] he to●k that confession to be a sign of true repentance , and our expositors and the ancients befor them agree , that it was such a confession as was conjunct with a detestation and renouncing of the sin , and it is expounded by that of acts . . as grotius noteth , to have a special detestation of the sin accompanying it , where to the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is added {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , confessing and shewing their deeds . and it may suffice that the baptism to which this confession was required , is the baptism of repentance . but it is objected that in the . vers. of matth. . it is said by john [ i baptize you with water to repentance ] therefore it is but an engagement of them to it for the future . answ. our expositors have fully shewed that this signifieth no more , but [ i baptize you upon your present profession of repentance , to newness of life ] for that this profession did go before is proved already , & then the rest can be no more , than the continuance of repentance and exercise of it in newness of ●ife , which they are engaged to for the future : onely if any falsly profess it at present his own confession is an engagement to it as a duty . grotius saith , that [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} potest non incommode exponi hoc modo , baptizo vos super professione paenitentiae quam facitis , unto repentance may commodiously be thus expounded ; i baptize you upon profession of repentance , which ye make . the plain meaning is in a word [ i do by baptism initiate you into the state of repentance , or of penitents ] but christ shall give the holy ghost ( as it was poured forth ) and so ( as pelargus speaks in matth. . against salm●ron ) we maintain johns baptism to be effectual , being the baptism of repentance to remission of sin : and that it was true repentance that he required appeareth further by the fruits of it , that he calleth from the ph●ri●ees , matth. . , , , . lastly , i shall prove anon that god hath not appointed us to baptize any upon a promise of repentance or faith , before they profess actual faith and repentance , nor are they fit for such a covenant . argum. . for the proof of the necessity of a profession of repentance before baptism , is this : if jesus christ hath by scripture , precept , and example , directed us to baptize those that profess true repentance and no other , then we must baptize them and no other : but the antecedent is true , therefore to is the consequent . all that requireth proof is of the antecedent , which i prove from an ●numeration of those texts that do afford us this direction ( besides the fore-mentioned . ) . jesus christ himself did by preaching repentance prepare men for baptism , end for his kingdom , as john before began to do , matth. . . so matth. . . the kingdom of god is at hand , repent ye and believe the gospe● ; and to that end he sent his apostles and other preachers , mark . . acts . . luke . . repentance and remission is to be preached to all ●●tions in his name ▪ and baptism which is for the obsignation of remission of ●●n , according to the appointed order , comes after repentance . and when it is said by john . [ i baptize you with water to repentance , but he shall baptize you with the holy ghost ] matth. . . mark . . luke . . it implieth that christs baptism comprehended johns and somewhat more . in acts . , . when the jews were pricked in their heart ( which was a preparatorie repentance ) and said to peter and the rest of the apostles [ men and brethren what shall we do ? ] peter saith to them , repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of jesus christ for the remission of sins ] so that we must require and expect true evangelical repentance to be professed before baptism . for verse . it s added [ then they that gladly received his word were baptized ] so that he baptized none that to outward appearance did not gladly receive that word , which could not be without a profession of that repentance . and he that hence perswadeth to repent and be baptized for remission , doth in the next chapter , verse . require them to repent , and be converted , that their sins may be blotted out , shewing what kind of repentance it is that he meaneth ; and as the work of general preachers to the unbelieving world is sometimes called a disciplining of nations , which goeth before baptizing them , matth. . , . so it is in other places called a preaching of repentance and commanding all men every where to repent , acts . . an opening of mens eyes and turning them from darkness to light , and from the power of satan unto god , that they may receive remission ( obsigned in baptism ) acts . . . repent and turn to god , verse . and if it was the sum of pauls preaching to the unbaptized [ repentance toward god , and faith toward the lord jesus christ ] acts . . so that it is apparent that they took the profession or appearance of both faith and repentance as prerequisite to baptism , and still this same repentance is it that hath the remission of sin connexed , acts. . . luke . . its repentance unto life , acts . . and when the apostles compare johns baptism with christs , they still acknowledge johns to be baptism of repentance , acts . . and . . and when the apostle doth purposely recite the principle of our religion he doth it in this order . heb. . , . [ the foundation of repentance from dead works and saith towards god , of the doctrine of baptisms , &c. ] argum. . they that before they are baptized must renounce the world , the flesh and the devil , must profess true evangelical repentance ( i mean still such as hath a promise of pardon and salvation ) but all that are baptized must renounce the world , flesh and devil , of which we shall have occasion to say more anon . argum. . they that profess to be buried with christ in baptism , and to rise again , do profess true repentance ; but all that are baptized must profess to be buried with him and rise again , therefore , &c. the major is proved in that to be buried and risen with christ , signifieth , a being dead to sin and alive to god , and newness of life : and it is not onely an engagement of this for the future , but a profession also of it at the present . this with the rest we thus prove , col. . , , . in whom ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands , in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of christ , buried with him in baptism , wherein also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation of god , who hath raised him from the dead , and you being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh hath he quickened together with him , having forgiven you all trespasses . where note . that this is spoken to all the church of the colossians ▪ and therefore they are presumed to be what they profess and appear to be . . that the putting of the body under the water did signifie our burial with christ and the death and putting off of our sins ; and though we now use a less quantity of water , yet it is to signifie the same thing , or else we should destroy the being of the sacrament . so also our rising out of the water signifieth our rising and being quickned together with him . . note also that it is not onely an engagement to this hereafter , but a thing presently done . they were in baptism buried with christ , and put off the body of sin , and were quickned with him ; and this doth all suppose their own present profession to put off the body of sin , and their consent to be baptized on these terms . the like we have in rom. . chapter . . know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into jesus christ were baptized into his death ? therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death , that like as christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father , even so we also should walk in newness of life ; for if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death , we shal be also into the likeness of his resurrection . here also it is evident , . that all the members of the visible church are supposed to be baptized into christ , and into his death , & so to be buried with him by baptism into death & planted together into the likeness of his death . . and that this is not supposed to be onely an engagement for the future , but a present entrance into the state of mortification and vivification wherein they were to proceed by newness of life ; and therefore verse , , , , . they are supposed to have the old man crucified with christ that the body of sin might be destroyed , and that henceforth they should not serve sin , and that they are so dead as to be freed from sin , as to the servitude thereof . and that they must reckon themselves dead to sin , but alive to god . he that readeth the whole chapter with judgement and impartialitie , will soon discern that true repentance and abrenuntiation of the service of sin , was to be professed by all that would be baptized ; and that thereupon they sealed their own profession and covenant by the reception of baptism , as christ sealed his part by the actual baptizing them ; and that hereupon they are by the apostles all called and supposed such as they professed themselves to be . argum. . if it be the very nature of baptism to signifie and seal both the present putting off the body of sin , and present putting on christ , then the profession of true repentance must needs precede or concur with baptism : but the former is certain ; of which more anon . i conclude then that both scripture , and the very signs themselves , and the common consent of the church do shew that true repentance and present repentance must be professed by all those that we may baptize . pag. . argum. . my first argument was from the necessity of a profession of true repentance . the . shall be from the equipollent terms , a description to the thing described , thus : we must baptize no man that first professeth not to believe in god the father , son , and holy ghost : but no infant professeth to believe in god the father , son , and holy ghost ; therefore we must baptize no infant : the minor is manifest by sense . the major is proved from matth. . . where this is made the form of the words in baptism , or at least the end , and that which we must insist on ▪ calvin on the words yields the anabaptists that faith is put justly before baptism , nam alioqui mendax essot , figuraque remissionem peccatorum & spiritus donum afferes incredulis , qui nondum essent christi membra . for otherwise he should speak false , and the figure should bring remission of sins , and the gift of the spirit to unbelievers , who were not members of christ . and that , non abs re , patris , filii & spiritus expressa hic fit mentio , quia aliter baptismi vis apprehendi non potest , quam si a gratuita patris miserecordia initium fiat , qui nos per filium sibi reconciliat , deinde in medium prodeat christus ipse cum mortis suae sacrificio , & tandem accedat etiam spiritus sanctus per quem nos abluit & regenerat ; denique suorum omnium bonorum consor●es faciat . not from the matter , here is express mention made of the father , son , and spirit , because otherwise the efficacie of baptism cannot be apprehended , but by beginning from the fathers free mercy , who reconciles us to himself by his son , and then that christ himself come between with the sacrifice of his death , and then at last the holy spirit also approach , by which he washeth and regenerates us , and last of all makes us partakers of his benefits . it appeareth by comparing matth. . . with rom. . . and cor. . , , . and . . that to be baptized into the name of the father , son , and holy ghost , is not onely to be baptized by their authority , but also to be thus initiated into the relation which the church standeth in to them , and to be consecrated to the father , son , and holy ghost , as musculus , diodate , the assembly of divines annotations , and the generality of expositors do express . see doctor hammond , pract. catech. lib. . . . and especially on matth. . . grotius at large , and that it comprehendeth or presupposeth a profession of believing son and holy ghost . for no man can devote himself solemnly by our ministry to the holy trinity , that doth not first profess to believe in them : therefore the chuch over taught the catechumeni the creed first , in which they profess to believe in god the father , son , and holy ghost . and before they actually baptized them , they asked them whether they believed in god the father , son , and holy ghost ? to which they must answer affirmatively , or not be baptized . and all that are baptized must first profess to believe in his name , and so to receive him , and not onely promise to do it hereafter . i adde that the same faith that is mentioned in the ordinary creed in the church , is meant in the baptismal profession , and to be required before baptism ; this will be confessed . . because the creed it self hath been this . years at least professed before baptism . . because the creed it self is but the . fundamental baptismal articles mentioned , matth. . . enlarged and explained on subsequent occasions ( as sandford , and parker , de descensu have learnedly and largley proved , and grotius in matth. . . proves out of tertullian , &c. that the creed was not then in the form of words as now , though the same doctrine was used in other words , to the same uses . pag. . argum. . the foregoing argument was taken from the prerequisite profession , the next shall be taken from the very work it self , viz. the presenting and offering our selves to be baptized , and willingly receiving baptism : thus , if it be the very nature or appointed use of the ex●eanal part of baptism it self ( yea essential to it ) to signifie and profess ( among other things ) the saving faith and repentance of the baptized , then true baptism cannot go without such a profession . but the baptism of infants is without such a profession , therefore the baptism of infants is not true baptism . the minor is manifest by sense . the antecedent ( which onely requireth proof ) i prove thus : it is of the instituted nature of baptism to be in general , a professing sign as well as an engaging sign , de futuro , for the future : this i premise , as granted by all christians that i know of that have written of baptism , and then let us consider of the several parts of the sign or external ordinance , with the signification of each ; that it is essential to it to be significant and obligatory on our part , as well as on gods part , is commonly confessed . and . the minister doth baptize him into the name of the father , son , and holy ghost ; and the party doth consent thereto , . voluntarily offering himself to be bapitzed , and then . voluntarily receiving that baptism . and his offer of himself hereto , goeth before the ministers baptizing him , and his reception of that baptism is essential to it : so that baptism essentially containeth on his part a signal profession of consent to that which is meant in the form used by the minister [ i baptize thee into the name of the father , son , and holy ghost ] and that is , that god the father , son , and holy ghost be mine , and i be theirs , in the relations in which they are offered in the gospel to mankind ; for all confess that it is a covenant that is here sealed , and so a mutual consent which the signs are instituted by christ to signifie . christ offereth himself to be related to me as my jesus christ ; and by offering my self to baptism , and by voluntary receiving it , i do actually profess my acceptance of his offer , that is of himself so offered . god the father offereth himself to be my god reconciled in christ , and so my chief good : and by voluntary receiving baptism i do signally profess my acceptance of him so offered . the holy ghost is offered to be my sanctifyer and guide ; and by voluntary reception of baptism into his name , i do signally profess my acceptance of him so offered : so that it is a most clear case , that baptism as baptism , according to it s instituted nature and use , doth contain the persons actual signal profession of present assent to the truth of the gospel , and acceptance of god the father , son , and holy ghost as therein offered . and it containeth ( as our divines commonly maintain ) an actual signal profession that we there presently consecrate or devote , or dedicate our selves to god the father , son , and holy ghost in the foresaid relations . . another part of baptism is , the ministers washing the person , and the person first offering himself to be washed , and after actually receiving it , doth thereby signally profess his consent . now this washing doth essentially signifie our washing from our former filth of sin , together with the guilt ; our putting off the old man which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts of the flesh . he that signally professeth his present consent to be washed by the blood of christ from his former filthiness and guilt , and to lay by the filthiness of flesh and spirit , doth co nomine profess saving faith and repentance . but all that are baptized with the baptism of christs institution , do by the very voluntary reception of baptism , so profess ; therefore they do thereby profess saving faith and repen● . quad modum as to the manner ; it s commonly confessed by us to the anabaptists ( as our commentators declare ) that in the apostles times the baptized were dipped over head in the water , and that this signifieth their profession , both of believing the bu●ial and resurrection of christ , and of their own present renouncing the world and flesh , or dying to sin and living to christ , or rising again to newness of life , or being buried and risen again with christ , as the apostle expoundeth in the forecited texts of col. . and rom. . and though we have thought it lawful to disuse the manner of dipping , and to use less water , yet we presume not to change the use and signification of it : so then , he , that signally professeth to die and rise again in baptism with christ , doth signally profess saving faith and repentance . but thus do all that are baptized according to the apostles practice : therefore , &c. pag. . argum. . if we must baptize none that profess not their consent to enter themselves presently into the covenant of grace with god in christ , then we must baptize no infant , but the former is true ; therefore , &c. the consequence is manifest , sith it is manifest even by sense , that infants profess not their consent to enter themselves into the covenant of grace with god in christ . the antecedent i think will be granted by many of the papists , and it is the common doctrine of the protestants ; and therefore as to them i need not prove it . i confess , some of the anbaptists , and some few others , do question whether baptism be a seal of the covenant of grace ; but the quarrel is mostly , if not onely , about the bare word [ seal ] for they confess that in sense which we mean by sealing ; and particularly they confess , that we do in baptism enter into the convenant of god , and that it is a professing and engaging sign on our part , as well as an exhibiting , notifying , confirming sign on gods part . it is confest it is the covenant of grace we are to enter , and that there is but one covenant of grace . this master blake acknowledgeth , for all the mention of an outward covenant : it is also a confessed thing on all hands that it is god that is the first author and offerer of the covenant , that it is he that redeemed us , who made the promise or covenant of grace upon the ground of redemption ; and that it is frequently called a covenant in scripture , as it is a divine law or constitution , without respect to mans consent , as grotius hath proved in the preface to his annotations on the evangelists : much more ( out of doubt ) is it , that it is called a covenant before man consenteth , as it is a covenant offered , and not yet mutually entred ; in the former sense the word is taken properly , but in another sense and for another thing then in the later . but in the later it is taken tropically , viz. synedochically , it being but a covenant drawn up and consented to by god conditionally , and offered to us for our con●ent . it is the same covenant that is offered to us and not another , that we are called to consent to or enter in , and we cannot be truly said to enter into covenant with god if we make a new one of our own , and lay by his ; for that 's none of the covenant of god : he never offered it , nor will he ever enter it . we are i hope agreed what the covenant of grace is , as offered on gods part ( or else its great pity ; ) viz. that on the title of cre●●●n first and redemption after , we being absolutely his own , it is offered to us , that god will be our god ( our chief good and reconciled father in christ ) that christ will be our saviour ( by propitiation teaching and ruling us ) even from the guilt , filth , or power of sin , that the holy ghost will be our indwelling sanctifier , if we heartily or sincerely accept the gift and offer , that god will consent to be our god , christ to be our jesus christ , and the holy ghost to be our in-dwelling sanctifier , if we will but consent . this is no doubt the gift or covenant so offered . these things being thus premised , i come to prove not onely the inseparability but even the identity of heart covenan●ing and saving faith , and of signal external covenanting and the profession of saving faith , without which we must not baptize any . pag. . argum. . we must not baptize any without the profession of that faith and repentance which are made the condition of remission of sins . but infants make no profession of that faith and repentance which are made the condition of remission of sins , therefore no infants are to be baptized ; the minor is manifest by sense , and the major i prove thus . if we must not baptize any but intentionally for present remission of sin , then must not we baptize any without a profession of that faith and repentance which is the condition of remission . but the former is true , therefore so is the ●uer ; the consequence is past all doubt , for else we should imagine that men may have present actual pardon without that faith and repentance which are the condition of it , which subverteth much of the gospel . the antecedent i prove thus : if god hath instituted no baptism , but what is intentionally for the present remission of sin , then we must not baptize any but intentionally for the present remission of sin : but the former is true , therefore so is the later . i say [ intentionally ] in contradistinction from [ eventually , or certainly and infallibly attaining that end ] where further note , that i speak not of gods absolute decrees , as if his intention in that sense could be frustrate ; but of his ends as legislator speaking of him after the manner of men , but principally of the instituted end of his ordinances ; that is , the ends which he requireth the minister and people to use them for , and so it is our intention principally that i mention . as the gospel it self is said to be intentionally to save men , and though it condemn most , that is besides the first intention and but by accident ; and though this be principally to be spoken of the prae-imposed intentions of their conversion and salvation ; yet christ is pleased in the word to ascribe such intentions to himself as attain not their ends , as professing that he came not into the world to condemn the world , but that the world through him migh be saved : that is , to condemn them is not his direct principal intent , but onely on supposition of their wilfull final rejecting of him ; and thus he speaks partly in the habit of a rector or promiser , and partly as man , or after the manner of men : and of the intention imposed on us there is no doubt . now i shall prove the antecedent ( for the consequence is past doubt : ) and first we are confirmed in this truth , because the opponent ( whom it concerneth ) hath not proved any other baptism instituted by god , but what is for present re●ission of sins . if they can shew us one text of scripture that speaketh of any other , we shall give up all the cause ; but yet they have not done it that i know of . in the mean time we shall prove the contrary , god hath instituted but one baptism : that one baptism is for the present remission of sins , therefore god hath instituted no baptism but what is for present remission . the major is proved from ephes. . . there is one baptism . in the minor we take the words [ for remission ] not to speak of somewhat accidental , or to be intended onely by the administrator , uncertainly or but sometime . and i prove it from scripture , acts . . repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of jesus christ for the remission of sins , and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost , as remission is here made the end of baptism so it is present remission . for . it is such as is the consequent of the repentance which peter exhorteth them to , but that was present remission . . it was to precede the giving of the holy ghost in the sense there mentioned , therefore it was present remission . beza in loc. upon the place , saith , [ in nomen christi ] id est dans christo nomen , cujus mortis , scpulturae ac resurrectionis simus in baptizo participes , cum peccatorum remissione , nec enim hoc declarat formulam baptismi s●d finem & scopum . in the name of christ , that is , giving our name to christ , of whose death , burial , and resurrection , we are made partakers in baptism , with the forgiveness of sins , for this doth not declare the form of baptism , but the end and scope . so deodate [ in the name ] viz. [ not onely for a mark of our profession of the gospel , but also to participate of his spiritual virtue in the washing away of our sins , with which he accompanieth and ratifieth the external ceremony in those who are his ] bullinger in loc. saith , baptiz●ri in nomine domini jesu christi , est baptismatis signo testari se christo credere ad remissionem peccatorum . to be baptized in the name of the lord jesus christ , is by the sign of baptism , to testifie that we believe in christ for the remission of sins . . mark , it is not onely an engagement to believe hereafter , but the profession of a present faith . . and that not a common faith , but that which hath remission of sin . . and this was not an accidental separable use of baptism ; but he makes this the very exposition of baptizari in nomine jesu christi , to be baptized in the name of jesus christ . and thus he expoundeth the covenant , [ est enim baptismus pactum seu foedus gratiae , quod init inter baptizandum nobiscum christus ] for baptism is an agreement or covenant of grace , which christ enters into with us , when we are baptized . and that it is a professing sign of our true repentance , he shews before [ & rectissime conjungitur paenitentia & baptismus , quia baptismus paenitentiae signum est ] and most rightly is repentance and baptism joyned together , between baptism is the sign of repentance . calvin in loc. upon the place , per baptismum ( ut paulus docet ) crucifigitur vetus homo noster , ut in vitae novitatem resurgamus , by baptism ( as paul teacheth ) our old man is crucified , that we may rise to newness of life . rom. . . . item indutmus christum ipsum , g●l . . . cor. . & passim docet scriptura esse paenitentiae quoque symbolum . also we put on christ himself , and the scripture doth up and down teach it , to be also a badge of repentance . calvin on acts . . non dubium est quin fideliter rudimentis pietatis paulum imbuerit ananias ; neque enim ver● fidei expertem baptizasset , nor doubt but ananias did faithfully instruct pa●l in the rudiments of piety , neither would he have baptize● him ▪ if he had been void of true faith . john . . [ except a man be born of water and of the spirit , he shall not enter into the kingdome of god ] though we are agreed against the papists , that christ intendeth not here to place the same necessity in baptism , as there is in or of the new birth by the spirit ; yet it is by most acknowledged , that christ doth here speak of the new birth as signified by baptism , and so hath respect to baptism , as the ordinary confirming sign : and so the text fully sheweth us , that baptism is instituted to be the sign of our present regeneration , or else it could not be said that we must be born [ of water and the spirit . ] calvin saith , most are of chrysostomes mind , who took it to be meant of baptism : ( and so did the generality of ancient expositors ) and though himself and some more think otherwise , yet as long as they take it to be a metonymical expression , the sign being put for the thing signified , it doth as well acquaint us with the use of baptism , as if it were a proper speech . bullinger in loc ▪ upon the place , saith [ hanc christi sententiam omnes pene de baptismo interpretantur ] almost all interpret this scripture of christ to baptism . beza believeth , that the text speaketh of baptism either christs or some other , but rather christs , justly doth beza in mark . . fall upon erasmus sharply , for saying [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} [ in ] praep●sitio praeparationem significat , non effectum : the preposition in , signifieth a preparation , and not the effect : because repentance and remission ( saith beza ) cannot be separated ; so that he took it not to be a common preparatory repentance or baptism . piscator on mark . . saith , it s called the baptism of repentance for remission of sin , because john preached remission of sin to the penitent and believers , praecip iebatque ut inhujus rei testimontum atque professionem baptizarentur . he concluded that they should be baptized , in testimony and profession of this thing ; and that is called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the baptism of repentance , id est , qui resipiscentiae testificandae atque profitenda adbibebatur : neque enim baptizabat nisi eos qui confessione peccatorum ●dita , resipiscentiam suam testatam reddebant : caeterum nomine resipiscentiae per synecdochen membri simul intelligenda est fides in christum , that is to say , was used to testifie and profess repentance ; neither did he baptize any but those who by confession of their sins testified their repentance , but by a synecdoche of a part for the whole , is also to be understood , faith in christ , and on matth. . . observe he shews that christs baptism and johns are the same , in that both have the same end and use , viz. obsignatio remissionis peccatorum & resipiscentiae , the sealing of remission of sins and repentance ; that is , as already extant , as his judgement is oft delivered ; as in his schol. on ver. . he expresly faith [ in resipiscentiam , id est in testimonium resipiscentiae ; ut nimi●um susceptione baptismi testatum faciatis vor resipuisse , & indies magis ac magis resipiscere velle : sed simul hic intelligendum , joannem baptizasse quoque in remissionem peccatorum , hoc est ut nimirum nomine dei testatum faceret resipiscentibus & in christum credentibus peccata ipsis remissa esse propter christum agnum dei ] unto repentance , that is , in testimony of repentance , viz. that by receiving of baptism you testifie that you have repented , and that you will daily renew your repentance more and more ; but withal we must here understand , that john did baptize also for the remission of sins , that is , that he might testifie in the name of god , to the penitents and believers in christ , that their sins were forgiven them for the sake of christ the lamb of god . and i pray mark his observation on mat. . . . concluding our present question : [ baptismus nulli adulto conferendus est nisi prius ediderit confessionem peccatorum & fidei in christum , ac praterea promissionem sanctae vitae ] baptism is not to be administred to any of age , unless he first make confession of his sins , and of his faith in christ , and besides a promise of a holy life , which he proves . calvin on matth. . . saith [ ergo ut se rite ad baptismum offerant homines , peccatorum confessio ab illis requiritur , alioqui nihil quam inane esset ludicrum tota actio ] therefore that men may rightly offer themselves to baptism , confession of sins is required of men , otherwise the whole action would be nothing else but sport . if i had charged the guilty so of making the whole work of baptism ludicrous , they would have been highly offended ( and yet paedobaptists do so . ) paraeus on matth. . . shews that the order was that confession as a testimony of true repentance go first , and then baptism for remission of sins [ confessio postponitur ; sed {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} constructionis — confessi baptizabantur : pro , cum con●essi essent peccata , baptismum accipiebant sacramentum remissionis peccatorum : non prius baptizabantur , postea confitebantur — auditores igitur primo in testimonium resipiscentiae confitebantur sua peccata , deinde baptizabantur , tertio fide baptismi fructum suscipiebant remissionem peccatorum . docet hic locus varia . . quod baptismus sit sacramentum remissionis peccatorum , ex parte dei ; spondet enim deus ceu ju rejurande baptizatis remissionem gratuitam peccatorum propter christum . . quod sit etiam sacramentum resipiscentiae ex parte nostra ; restipulamur enim deo fidem & paenitentiam pro tanto beneficio . confession is put after , but in construction the first is to be last ; those who confessed were baptized , for when they confessed their sins , they received baptism , a sacrament of the forgiveness of their sins ; they were not baptized first , and confessed their sins after , the hearers then first confessed their sins in testimony of their repentance , then they were baptized , thirdly by faith they received the fruit of baptism ; the remission of sins : this place teacheth divers things . . that baptism is a sacrament of the forgiveness of sins , on gods part , for god promiseth as by an oath , to those who are baptized , a free pardon of sin for christs sake : . that it is also a sacrament of repentance on our part , for we again engage to god , faith and repentance , for so great a benefit ; that is , both profess it at present , and ingage to continue in it ; answering the interrogation credis ? with a credo , and not onely a credam . doest thou believe ; i do believe in the present tense , and not onely i will believe , in the future . ad sacramenta non esse admittendos impenitentes . hoc enim damus ( anabaptistis ) in ecclesiam suscipiendos & baptizandes non esse nisi praevia confessione fidei & paenitentiae : quem morem & vetus servavit ecclesia , & nostrae hodei observant , si vel judaeus vel turca adults baptismo sit ▪ initiandus . impenitents are not to be admitted to the sacraments : for this we grant to the anabaptists , that such are not to be required into the church , nor to be baptized , who have not first made confession of faith and repentance , which custom both the ancient church did observe , and ours observe at this day , if either a jew or a turk of age is to be admitted by baptism . and on verse . he saith , ex concione ipsa datur intelligi , multos illorum simulata paenitentia etiam baptismum petivisse : horum hypocrisin cum non ignoraret , non passus eos latere in turba , nec ad baptismum indignos admisit , sed acri objurgatione , hortatione & comminatione ad seriam resipiscentiam extimulat , & ad baptismum praeparat . from the sermon it self it s to be understood , many of them also required baptism by a feigned repentance , when as he understood their hypocrisie , he suffered them not to lurk in the croud , neither admitted he to baptism those that were unworthy of it , but stirs them up to a serious repentance , by sharp reprehension , exhorting and threatning , and so prepares them unto baptism ; after he shews , that there are hypocritae manifesti quos pastores admittere non debent sine examine , ne sacramenta prostituant , sibi & ecclesiae reatum attrahant , manifest hypocrites , whom pastors ought not to admit without examination , least they prostitute the sacraments , and contract guilt to themselves and the church . and pag. . against maldonate he proveth the baptism of christ and john all one ; and when maldonate saith , that john baptized in panitentiam , & baptismus praecedebat , paenitentia sequebatur , unto repentance , and that baptism went before , and repentance followed , ( confessing that in christs baptism repentance precedes ) he answereth [ that it is faise , nam etiam in joannis baptismo praecedebat paenitentiae , sequebatur baptismus ] for repentance did also precede in johns baptism , and baptism followed . pet. . . it is said of the barren ungodly professor [ that he hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins , ] where i take it for a clear case , that it is the baptismal washing which the apostle there intendeth , wherein all profess to put off the old man , and to be washed from their former filthiness ; for i suppose we shall be loath to yield that it was an actual cleansing either of remission or mortification , which the apostle meaneth , lest we grant that men may fall from such a state ; and therefore it must be a sacramental washing , or cleansing , wherein the matter was appearingly and sacramentally transacted . from whence it is plain that the apostle took it for granted , that as all the baptized were visibly church-members , so were they all visibly washed from their old sins ; which sheweth both what was their own profession , and what was the stated end and use of the ordinance . the apostle saith not that [ he hath forgotten that he promised or engaged to be purged from his old sins ] but that [ he was purged ] from them . paraeus in locum , upon the place , saith , [ a veteribus peccatis purgatum , hoc est se esse baptizatum , seu se accepisse in baptismo purgationis signaculum . omnes enim baptizati debent purgari a peccatis , sicut dicuntur induere christum , gal. . mori cum christo , rom. . sensus est , qui se volutant in sceleribus , non recordantur se baptizatos esse , abnegant ergo baptismum suum ] that he was purged from his old sins , that is , was baptized , or had received in baptism the seal of purging , for all those who are baptized , ought to be purged from their sins , as they are said to put on christ , to die with christ , the meaning is , they which wallow in their sins , do not remember they were baptized , and therefore do renounce their baptism . cor. . . the apostle saith of the visible church of corinth [ such were some of you , but ye are washed , but ye are sanctified , but ye are justified , &c. ] where it is evident , that all the visible members of the church are visibly washed , sanctified , justified : and i think it is clear that by washing here he hath some respect to their baptism . so that i conclude that there is no baptism to be administred without a profession of saving faith and repentance foregoing , because there is no baptism that ever christ appointed but what is for the obsignation of remission of sins , which is the consequent . master blake , pag. . reciteth some words of mine containing this argument , thus ; that faith to which the promise of remission and justification is made , must also be sealed to : or that faith which is the condition of the promise , is the condition in foro de● , in the court of god , of the title to the seal : but it is onely solid true faith that is the condition of the promise of remission ; therefore it is that which gives right in foro dei , in the court of god , to the seal . who would think now but master blake had given some substantial answer to this and other arguments , when himself and some others are so confident of the sufficiency of them ? his answer is this : [ to this i have answered , faith is not sealed to , but remission of sins or salvation upon condition of faith ; and when i come to speak of the sealing of sacraments , i shall ( god willing ) make this more evident , that the sacrament qua seal immediately respects our priviledges , not duties ] reply . is here one word of answer to any real part of this argument . is not this answer as little to the matter , as if he had talked of another subject . i think it my duty to say that ministers of the gospel do but proclaim to the church the matter of our common lamentation , and the enemies joy , when some confidently publish such kind of disputations , and others are satisfied with them ; and i must say if all were such , they should never be angred with one word of mine in opposition to their assertions , though they would maintain that the crow is white . . to that useless touch that he hath on a word ( whose following explication might have spared him his labour ) i may say that our divines have ordinarily maintained hitherto that there is a mutual covenanting between god and us , ( and no man more then master blake ) and that there is in the sacrament a mutual sealing ; the receiving being our seal , as the act is gods . pag. . argum. . if baptism be instituted to be a seal of the righteousness of that faith which we have yet being unbaptized , then must we baptize none that profess not a justifying faith . but no infants profess a justifying faith , therefore we must baptize no infants ; the minor is manifest by sense . the reason of the consequence is evident , in that we must use baptism onely according to its nature and to its instituted ends : the antecedent is proved thus : circumcision was instituted to be a seal of the righteousness of that faith which we have yet unbaptized . the consequence will not be denied by them whom we now deal with : because they confesse that baptism succeedeth circumcision . the antecedent is evident in rom. . . it being expresly said of abraham to whom circumcision was first given . i cannot imagine what they will say , unless it be by recourse to the anabaptists shift , to say that circumcision was instituted to this end indeed , to abraham himself , and others that were sincere , but not to all that had right to it ; but god here tells us the established use and end of his ordinance , and in such relations , the end is inseparable . and as god hath not made many sorts of baptisms or circumcisions : so neither many meer inconsistent ends ( or separable ) and we are likest to know the true end of the institution , where the institution and first example are reported to us . calvin in loc. saith , duae denique ut baptismi hodie sunt , ita olim circumcisionis erant partes , nempe , tam vitae novitatem , quam peccatorum remissionem testari : lastly , as there are two parts at this day of baptism , so of old there were two of circumcision , viz. to witness , as newness of life , so forgiveness of sins . saith piscator , in loc. upon the place , sicut olim circumcisio signum suit faeleris gratiae , & figillum quo credentibus obsignata fuit justitia fidei , hoc est , quo illi certiores sunt redditi , sibi remssa esse peccata , propter futuram satisfactionem christi , ac proinde se babere deam propitium ac foventem ; ita caetera quoque sacramenta , &c. similiter & finis seu scopus omnium sacramentorum unus idemque , viz. obsignatio justitiae fidei , quae vulgo dicitur fidei confirmatio . paraeus in loc. saith [ ita signum fuit dantis & accipientis respectu , &c. ] et [ justitia fidei est remissio peccatorum fide accepta propter redemptionem christi ] et [ sic sacramenta non sunt instituta justificandis , sed justificatis , hoc est non infidelibus sed conversis , non igiturnisi conversione & fide sumi debent : secus sigilla justitiae esse cessant : quid enim non babentibus fidem & justitiam obsignarent ? as circumcision was of old a sign of the covenant of grace , and a seal whereby was sealed the righteousness of faith to believers , that is to say , whereby they were certified that their sins were forgiven them , by receiving of the future satisfaction of christ , and therefore they had god propitious and favouring unto them , so also the other sacraments , &c. also the end or scope of all the sacraments is as one and the same , viz. the signing of the righteousness of faith , which is commonly called the confirmation of faith , so it was a sign both in respect of the giver , and receiver , &c. and the righteousness of faith is the forgiveness of sins by faith , received because of christs redemption , and so the sacraments are not instituted for those who are to be justified , but for the justified , that is , not for unbelievers , but for those which are converted , therefore are they not to be taken without conversion and saith , otherwise they were to be seals of righteousness , for what would it seal to them , who have not faith and repentance ? doctor willet , in loc. saith [ circumcision then did not confer upon him that grace which he had not , but did confirm and establish him in the grace and faith received : the sacraments then non instituta sunt justificandis , sed justificatis , are not instituted for those which are to be justified , but for them which are already justified parae . ] peter martyr is large , and makes these words rom. . . of paul to be the definition of a sacrament , to be a seal of the righteousness of faith . pag. . argum . we must baptize none but those that are first professed disciples of christ . but none are professed disciples of christ that profess not saving saith in christ , therefore we may not baptize any that profess not saving faith in christ : but no infant doth profess saving faith in christ , as is manifest by sense ; therefore no infant is a professed disciple of christ , nor must we baptize any . the major is proved from matth. . . go , disciple me all nations baptizing them ] as for those that say , they are discipled by baptizing , and not before baptizing , . they speak not the sense of that text . . nor that which is true or rational , if they mean it absolutely as so spoken , else why should one be baptized more then another ? . but if they mean that by heart-covenant or gods acceptance and promise they are disciples before , but not so compleatly till the covenant be sealed and solemnized , as a souldier is not so signally a souldier till he be listed , nor a king till he be crowned so fully a king , or a man and woman so fully maried till it be solemnized in the congregation ; in this sense they say the same that i am proving : men must be first disciples by the professed consent , before they are declared such by the seals or publick sacramental solemnization . and that onely the professors of saving saith are disciples , may appear by a perusal of the texts of scripture that use this word , and it will not onely by found that this which i maintain is the ordinary use of the word ( which should make it so also with us ) but that no text can be cited where any others are called the disciples of christ . for the major and minor both observe piscators definition of baptism [ on matth . . ] baptismus est sacrimentum novi testamenti , quo homines ad ecclesiam pertinentes ex mandato christi cultui veri dei , qui est pater , filius & spiritus sarctus per ministros verbi consecrantur , & in fide remissionis peccatorum & spe vitae aternae confirmantur . baptism is a sacrament of the new testament , by which those men who belong to the church , by the command of christ , are consecrated to the worship of the true god , which is the father , son , and holy spirit , by the ministers of the word , and are confirmed in the faith of remission of sins , and of hope of eternal life . and he proveth this description , per partes , by parts . . that is a sacrament . . that it belongeth to those that pertain to that church , and that onely must be baptized , qui ecclesiam fuerit ingressi , ac fidem evangelii prosessi , who are entred into the church , and have professed the faith of the gospel . which he proveth from mark . . he that believeth , and is baptized shall be saved . vult ergo ( saith he ) ut prius constet de alicujus fide quam baptizetur , unde act. . philippus evangelista non prius baptizare voluit eunuchum illum ethiopem quam is professus esse● fidem christi . he wills therefore , that his faith be manifested , before he be baptized , whence acts. . philip the evangelist would not baptize the ethiopian ennuch , before he had professed the faith of christ . calvin in loc. upon the place , saith [ bapti●●ri jubet christus qui nomen evangelii dederint , s●que professi fuerint discipulos , partim ut illis baptismus si● vitae aeternae tessera coram deo ; partim apud homines externum fidei signum : quem ad modum gratiam suam deus hoc sigillo nobis confirmat , ita quicunque se ad baptismum offerunt , vicissim quasi data syngrapha obstringunt s●am sidem ] christ commands them to be baptized , who have given up their names to the gospel , and have professed to be his disciples , partly that baptism might be to them a sign of eternal life before god , partly an external sign of faith before men , and as god confirms his grace to us by this seal , so whosoever offers himself to baptism , doth reciprocally engage his faith as it were by his bond . and after [ verum quia docere prius jubet christus quam baptizare , & tantum credentes ad baptismum vult recipi , videtur non rite administrari baptismus nisi fides pracesserit ] but because christ commands first to teach , then to baptize , and onely will have believers to be received to baptism , it seems that baptism is not rightly administred , unless faith doth precede . so that it is calvins judgement , that this very text which is the most notable copy of the apostolical commission for the baptizing of the disciple nations doth appoint that saving faith be professed before men be baptized . paraeus in locum , from mark . . sheweth that the order is , ●redere & baptizari , to believe and to be baptized . i agree with him and the rest in the main , that justifying faith must be an act of the will ( embracing or accepting an offered christ ) as well as of the understanding , and that the profession of it must go before baptism . but i shall further prove the minor from some other texts of scripture , viz. that they are not christs disciples that profess not saving faith . luke , , . [ if any man come to me and hate not his father and mother , and wife and children , and brothers and sisters ; yea , and his own life also , he cannot be my disciple : and whosoever doth not bear his cross , and come after me , cannot be my disciple : whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath , cannot be my disciple ] this is spoken of true disciples in heart ( the first significatum ) by him that knew the heart . from whence i argue thus : [ if none are christs disciples in heart , nor can be , but those that value him above all , and will forsake all for him if he require it , then none can be his disciples by external profession , but those that profess to esteem him above all , and to be willing to forsake all rather then forsake him : but the former is proved by the text ; the consequence is clear , in that the world hath hitherto been acquainted but with two sorts of christians , or disciples of christ ; the one such sincerely in heart , and the other such by profession , and the later are so called because they profess to be what the other are indeed , and what themselves are if they sincerely so profess . and it is the same thing professed which makes a man a professed christian , which being found in the heart doth make a man a hearty christian . john . . [ by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples , if ye love one another ] here christ giveth a certain badge by which his true disciples may be known . if onely those that love one another are true disciples in heart , then onely those that profess to love one another are disciples by profession . joh. . . if ye continue in my word then are ye ( that is you will approve your selves ) my disciples indeed ] if onely those are christs disciples indeed as to the heart , that have the resolution of perseverance , then onely those are his professed disciples that profess a resolution to persevere . but therefore all this i have said , is no more then we have ever practised , when in baptism we renounced the world , flesh , and devil , and promised to fight under christs banner to our lives end . saith piscator in john . . si pro christianis , id est , christi discipulis haberi volumus , oportet ut nos mutuo quam ardentisaime diligamus , &c. if we will be accounted christians , that is , christs disciples , we ought most ardently to love one another . object . any one is a disciple that is willing to learn of christ . answ. no such matter : in an improper sense you may so call them , but not in scripture sense ; where . a disciple and a christian are all one , acts . . but every one that is willing to learn of christ is not a christian , therefore not a disciple . . a disciple of christ is one that will take him for the great prophet of the church [ which whosoever heareth not shall be cut off from gods people ] and will learn of him as of the christ : but so will not all that will learn of him : for a man that taketh christ but for a common wise man , as socrates or plato may be willing to learn of him : and so may be his disciple in another sense , but not in the christian sense as a christian . pag. . argum. . we ought not to baptize those persons that do not so much as profess their forsaking of the childhood and kingdom of the devil : but no infant doth profess its forsaking of the childhood and kingdom of the devil , as is manifest by sense , therefore we ought to baptize no infant . the maior is proved thus : if we must baptize none but for present admission into the kingdom of christ , then we must baptize none but those that promise a present departure from the kingdom of the devil ; but the former is true , therefore so is the later . the antecedent is granted by those that i have to do with ; the reason of the consequence is evident , in that all the world is divided into these two kingdomes , and they are so opposite that there is no passing into one but from the other . the minor of the first argument i prove thus . all they are visiby in the kingdom of the devil , or not so much as by profession removed out of it , who profess not a removal from that condition in which the wrath of god abideth on them , and they are excluded by the gospel from everlasting life , but such are all that profess not a justifying faith . the major is proved , in that it is the condition of the covenant of grace performed that differenceth the members of christs kingdom from satans ; and so it is that condition profest to be performed that visibly differenceth them before men . it is the promise of grace that bringeth them out of satans kingdome , therefore it is onely done visibly to those that profess the performance of the condition : moreover to be out of satans kingdom visibly , is to be visibly from under his government , but those that profess not saving faith are not visibly from under his government . lastly , to be visibly out of satans kingdom , is to be visibly freed from his power , as the executioner of gods eternal vengeance ; but so are none that profess not saving faith . the minor is proved from john . . where it is plain , . that the unbelief spoken of is that which is opposed to saving faith , even to that saith which hath here the promise of everlasting life , . and that this leaves them visibly under the wrath of god . so in mark . . compared with matth. . . in the later christ bids them make him disciples , and in the former he describeth those that are such , and those that remain still in the kingdom of satan [ he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved , and he that believeth not shall be damned ] here it is evident that the unbelief threatned is that which is contrary to [ and even the privation of ] the faith that salvation is expresly promised to , and that all that profess not this saving faith are not so much as professedly escaped a state of damnation , and that this is the differencing character of christs disciples to be baptized [ of which yet more afterwards . ] pag. . argum. . if it be the appointed use of all christian baptism to solemnize our mariage with christ , or to seal or confirm our union with him , or ingraffing into him , then must we baptize none that profess not justifying faith [ because this is necessarily prerequisite , and no other can pretend to union , mariage or ingraffing into christ ] but no infant doth profess justifying faith , as is manifest by sense ; therefore we must baptize no infant . both the antecedent and consequent are evident in gal. . , , . for as many of you as have been baptized in christ , have put on christ : ye are all one in christ jesus , and if ye be christs then are ye abrahams seed , and heirs according to promise . here . we see that it is not an accidental or separable thing for baptism to be our visible entrance into christ , our putting him on , our admittance ( by solemnization ) into the state of gods children and heirs according to promise . for this is affirmed of all the baptized with true christian baptism . if we be truely baptized , we are baptized into christ , if we are baptized into christ , then we are christs , and have put on christ , and are all one in christ , and are abrahams seed , and heirs according to promise . if any object that the apostle speaks this but of some of them , even of the regenerate , because he saith [ as many of you ] i answer , it is manifest that he speaks of all , . because it was of all them that were baptized into christ , . he expresly saith as much in the next foregoing words [ ver . . for ye are all the children of god by faith in christ jesus ] to which the words recited are annexed as the proof [ for as many of you as have been baptized into christ , have put on christ ] the assumption is implied [ but you have all been baptized into christ ] therefore ye have all put on christ , and so in him are all the children of god . . note that they are the special gifts of saving grace that are here ascribed to all the baptized . . note also that all this is said and proved to be by faith . . note also that it is expresly said to be a justifying faith , before vers . . [ that we might be justified by faith . ] indeed this text affordeth us divers arguments . . the apostle supposeth all the baptized to profess a justifying faith , among the galatians , therefore so must we suppose of others , and expect that they do it . the antecedent is proved from vers . , , and . compared . . all the baptized are said to have put on christ , therefore they are supposed to profess that faith by which christ is put on : but that is onely justfying faith . . all that are duely baptized are baptized into christ , therefore they are supposed to profess that faith by which men are united , or ingraffed into christ , but that is onely justifying faith ; but the rest of the arguments here will be further touched on anon . master rutherford saith that scripture no where calleth christ the head of the visible church as such , as it is after cited . i conclude then that christ hath app●inted no baptism but what is for a visible mariage of the soul to himself ( as protestants ordinarily confess ) therefore he hath appointed no baptism but for those that profess to take jesus christ for their husband , and to give up themselves to him as his espouse : but this is a profession of justifying faith , for heartily to take christ for our head and husband is true saving faith , and proper to his own regenerate pecple if any thing in the world be so ; and no man can profess to be maried to christ that doth not profess to take him for a husband . therefore for my part i never intend to baptize any without profession of saving faith , amen . and let the lord god say so too , that mr. b●xter may baptize no more infants , nor defend so palpable an abuse , but may wipe away the reproach he hath cast on gods people and ordinance : he goes on thus . pag. . argum. . if paul account all the baptized saints or sanctified men dead with christ and risen with him , such as have put on christ , sons of god by adoption , abrahams seed , heirs according to promise and justified ; then they did all profess a true justifying faith . but no infant did profess a true justifying faith : if they did let it be sh●wed when , and where , and to whom : therefore no infant was then baptized , nor are now to be . the antecedent master blake confesseth , and i shall prove it by parts . the consequence is that which lyeth chiefly on me to prove , and i shall do both together . the apostle in the beginning of his epistle to the corinthians , and in many other places calls the whole church saints , cor. . . he saith to them [ but ye are washed , ye are sanctified ] that part of the antecedent then is certain ; the consequene i prove thus . there are none called saints in all the new testament , but onely such as were in heart devoted to christ by a saving faith , or professed so much , therefore the word saint in this case must signifie onely such . if any will prove a third sort of saints , viz. such as profess a faith not saving , they must do that which i never saw done . the first and most famous signification of the word saints or sanctified in the new testament , is onely of them that are in heart devoted to christ by true faith ; therefore the borrowed , or analogical , or less proper signification ( call it what you list ) must be of that which hath the likeness or appearance of this , and that is onely the profession of it . profession maketh saints visible , or by profession , as hearty dedication to god by faith maketh real or heart saints . master blake addeth [ we read of churches of the saints , cor. . . and they were taken to be church-members as soon as they made profession , as they ceased to be jews or pagans , and took them to the way of christianity , as we see , acts . acts . . . . ] answ. . they renounced the way of ungodliness , and wickedness in general by a profession of repentance , as well as the way of paganism and judaism in particular . there were no christians that professed not repentance towards god from dead works . we believe that there were churches of the saints , and therefore that none should be of the church that profess not to be true saints . but prove if you can that there was ever either church or church-member called saints in scripture , that had not either special sanctity or a profession of it . and as for those acts . you cannot prove that any of them were either called saints or baptized without a profession of a justifying faith : as shall further be shewed afterwards . the galatians i find not called saints , but to call them a church of christ or believers is equipollent : and what saints were they ? why they were all the sons of god by faith in christ jesus , having been baptized into christ , and put him on , and were all one in him , and were all abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise , gal. . , , . a church in scripture sense , is a society of men professing true saving faith . and thus we see what a church was , and what saints were , and what believers and disciples were supposed to be by the apostles , and what is the signification of these words in scripture , for they are all of the same extent . thus much i have said to prove that all the baptized are accounted saints , and therefore professed a saving sanctity . the second title which i mentioned follows ( of which i shall be more brief ) all the baptized are accounted to be dead and risen with christ , even dead to sin , and risen to newness of life ; therefore they all profess a saving faith . the proof of this is full in the two texts already cited , rom. . and col. . , . rom. . . &c. how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein ? know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into jesus christ , were baptized into his death ? therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death , that like as christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the father , so we also should walk in newness of life . for if we have been planted together into the likeness of his death , we shall be also in the likeness of his resurection , knowing this that our old man is crucified with him , that the body of sin might be destroyed , that hence forth we should not serve sin ; for he that is dead is freed from sin . now if we be dead with christ , we believe that we shall also live with him . likewise , reckon ye also your selves to be dead indeed unto sin , but alive unto god through jesus christ our lord . here is a full report of the use of baptism , and the profession of all that are baptized , and the state they are supposed to be in . so that i cannot speak it plainlyer then the words themselves do . so col. . , . which i shall not stay to recite , because it is to the same purpose , and before cited . the third title mentioned in the argument is this : all that are baptized have professedly put on christ ; therefore they have professed saving faith . the antecedent is expressed gal. . . [ for as many as have been baptized into christ have put on christ ] the consequence is proved in that to put on christ heartily , is to be made true partakers of him , and living members of him , therefore to profess this is inseperable from the profession of saving faith ; yea by that faith he is truly put on . putting on christ is the same with [ putting on the new man , which after god is created in righteousness and true holiness , being renewed in the spirit of our minds , ephes. . , , , , . col. . . it is putting on the new man which is renewed in knowledge according to the image of him that created him ] and putting on the lord jesus christ is put for the state of sanctity in opposition to a fleshly life , rom. . , . saith calvin on this text [ induere christum bic significat virtute spiritus ejus undique nos muniri , qua idonei ad omnes sanctitatis partes reddamur : sic enim in nobis instauratur imago dei quae unicum est animae ornamentum . respicit enim paulus ad vocationis nostrae finem , quia deus nos adoptans in corpus unigenti filii sui inserit , & quidem hac lege , ut nos abdicantes priore vita fiamus in ipso novi homines . quare etiam alibi fideles dicit christum induere in baptismo , gal. . . ] to put on christ signifies here to be defended in all points with the virtue of the spirit , whereby we may be fit for all parts of holiness , for thus the image of god is renewed in us , which is the onely ornament of the soul , for paul hath respect to the end of our vocation , because god adopting us , hath ingraffed us in the body of his onely begotten son , and that upon those terms , if we deny our former life , and become new men in him : wherefore he saith elsewhere , that believers put on christ in baptism . and upon gal. . . he saith [ quum dicit , christum induisse , intelligit christo sic esse infitos ; ut coram deo nomen ac personam christi gerant , ac in ipso magis quam in seipsis censcantur . when he saith they have put on christ , he understands that they are so ingraffed in christ , that they carry that name and person of christ in the sight of god , and are rather reckoned in him , then in themselves . and he comes to the objection , how all that are baptized can be said to put on christ , when baptism is not effectual with all ? and he answereth in summe , that to hypocrites it is uneffectual , qui nudis signis superbiunt , who are proud with the bare signs . but then he saith , that the apostle speaking of these non resspicit dei institutionem , sed impiorum corruptelam . he hath no respect to gods institution , but to the corruption of the wicked . ( but doubtless it is gods institution that we must look to in our administration ) qaum autem fideles alloquitur , qui rite utuntur illa , tunc conjungit cum sua veritate , quam figurant . quare ? neque enim fallacem pompam ostentat in sacramentis , sed quae externa caremonia figurat , exhibet simul reipsa . hinc fit , ut veritas , secundum dei institutum , conjuncta sit cum signis ] but when he speaks to believers , who use it rightly , he joyns them with their truth , which they typifie . wherefore ? for he doth not make shew of a deceitful pomp in the sacraments , but what the external ceremony figures , he exhibites together in very deed . hence it comes to pass that truth , according to gods institution , is joyned with the signs . to the same purpose say other protestants . the next title mentioned in the argument was , sons of god . all that are baptized are the visible or esteemed sons of god by saith in christ ; therefore they all profess that justifying faith to which that real or special sonship is promised . the antecedent is expressed in gal. , , . [ for ye are all the sons of god by saith in christ jesus ] which he proveth in the next words [ for as many as have been baptized into christ , have put on christ ] what sons of god are in scripture sense may be seen , john . . rom. . , . phil. . . john . , . gal. . , , , . and rom. . . [ if sons , then heirs , heirs of god , and joynt heirs with christ ] was a good consequence in pauls judgement [ in this ( saith john ) the children of god are manifest from the children of the devils : whosoever doth not righteousness is not of god , neither he that loveth not his brother , john . . see also john . . rom. . . . but master blake objecteth rom. . . [ to them pertained the adoption ] and gomarus his comment . answ. . gomarus saith not , that any were in either sense sons of god without a profession of a saving faith . . it was not after their unchurching or unbelief , that the adoption is said to pertain to them , but before , and then , let master blake prove [ if he can ] that any israelites were adopted without profession of that faith , which was then saving : i doubt not to prove the contrary anon . and . if he could prove that such there were among the israelites , yet he will never prove that they are called sons , though the nation were ; because the denomination was principally from the true sons , and next from the professed ones : none are visibly sons that be not visibly true believers . the next title mentioned in the argument is [ abrahams seed ] all that are baptized are called abrahams seed , gal. . , , . therefore they all profess a justifying faith . the consequence is proved , in that none are abrahams seed in gospel sense , but those cordially that are true believers , and those appearingly that profess true faith . this is proved , rom. . , , . rom. . . [ that he might be the father of all them that believe , that righteousness might be imputed to them also ] this therefore is a justifying faith , and the priviledge of the justified that is here mentioned . it s added vers . , . [ and the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision , but also walk in the steps of the faith of our father abraham yet uncircumcised . for the promise that he should be heir of the world was not to abraham or his seed by the law , but by the righteousness of faith — therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace , to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed , even to that also which is of the faith of abraham the father of us all . ] so gal. . , , , . [ even as abraham believed god , and it was accounted to him for righteousness : know ye therefore that they which are of saith , the same are the children of abraham ; and the scripture fore-seeing that god would justifie the heathen by faith preached before the gospel to abraham ; in thee shall all nations be blessed . so then , they which be of saith are blessed with faithful abraham ] so vers . . . [ that the blessing of abraham might come on the gentiles , through jesus christ , that we might receive the promise of the spirit through faith . now to abraham , and his seed were the promises made ; he saith not , and to seeds as of many , but as of one ; and to thy seed , which is christ , and so to those that are in him . it is hence most undeniable , that all abrahams true seed are justified , and have a justifying faith ; and all his professing seed do profess this faith . the next title mentioned in the argument is , [ heirs according to the promise . ] all the baptized were heirs according to the promise : none that profess not a justifying faith are heirs according to the promise ( either really or appearingly ) therefore none that profess not a justifying faith should be baptized . the major is expressed , gal. . , , . the minor ( of which is all the doubt ) is proved from rom. . . where there is an express concatenation of [ children , heirs of god , coheirs with christ , that suffering with him shall be glorified with him ] gal. . , , . the heir is lord of all and a son , and therefore hath the spirit of the son , by which they cry abba father . so tit. . , , . [ according to his mercy he saved us by the washing of regeneration , and renewing of the holy ghost which he shed on us , &c. that being justified by his grace , we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life ] the heirs then are regenerate , justified , and have the hope of eternal life . so ephes. . . the gentiles being made fellow-heirs , and of the same body are partakers of the promise in christ by the gospel , even the unsearchable riches of christ , heb. . . the heirs of promise have their salvation confirmed by gods oath . and heb. . . they are called the heirs of salvation . and heb. . . . it is true justified believers that have that title , and james . . [ they are called heirs of the promised kingdom ] and . pet. . . they are called coheirs [ of the same grace of life ] so that to be heirs in the first and proper notion is to be sons that have title to the inheritance of glory : and therefore to be heirs in the second analogical notion is to be such as seem such by profession of that faith which hath the promise of that glory . the last title that i mentioned in the argument was [ justified ] paul calleth all the baptized church of corinth justified ; none that profess not a justified faith are called justified , therefore none such should be baptized . the major i proved to master blake out of cor. . . [ ye are washed , ye are sanctified , ye are justified in the name of the lord jesus , and by the spirit of our god . ] master blake doth not at all deny the major or the sense of the text alledged to prove it ; but darkly in generals intimateth a denial of the minor , silently passing over that particular title [ justified ] as if he durst not be seen to take notice of it . i confess its sad that good men should be so unfaithful to the truth , which is so precious , and is not their own , and which they should do nothing against ( as master baxter hath done ) but all they can for it . having gon thus far about titles , let me add another ; the title [ regenerate ] christ hath instituted no baptism , but what is to be a sign of present regeneration . but to men that profess not a justifying faith it cannot be administred as a sign of present regeneration ; therefore he hath instituted no baptism to be administred to such . the major i have proved already in the first argument , and its plain in john . . except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of god ] and so in tit. . . where it is called the laver of [ regeneration ] in both which though i am of their minde that think that the sign is put for the thing signified ; yet it may thence plainly appear what is the thing signified , even regeneration , or the new birth : yea so commonly was this acknowledged by all the church of christ , that there is nothing more common in the writings of the fathers then to take the terms [ regenerate , illuminate , &c. and baptized ] as signifying the same thing , or at least spoken of the same person , which occasioned one of our late antiquaries so stifly to plead that regeneration in scripture signifyeth meer baptism , and that all the baptized are regenerate . i grant that it oft falls out that baptism being misapplied sealeth not regeneration at present , and that the same person may afterward be regenerate , and his remembred baptism may be of use to him for the confirmation of his faith . but this is not the institutes commanded use of it , to be so administred at first , if the party profess not saving faith , though this review of it is a duty , where it was so abused at first . the minor i shall take for granted , while regeneration in scripture stands so connexed to salvation ; i know no regenerate ones , but the justified , or those that profess to have a justifying faith , nor hath he proved any more . pag. . argum. . all that are meet subjects for baptism , ( are after their baptism without any further inward qualification , at least without any other species of saith ) meet subjects for the lords supper : but no infant is a meet subject for the lords supper , as is acknowledged , therefore no infant is a meet subject for baptism : or thus , those whom we may baptize , we may also admit to the lords supper : but we may admit no infants to the lords supper , as is acknowledged by baptizers of infants , therefore we may baptize no infants . the major master blake will easily grant me , and if any other deny it i prove it thus . . it is the same covenant that both sacrament seal , one for initiation the other for confirmation and growth in grace ; therefore the same saith that qualifieth for the one , doth sufficiently qualifie for the other , for the same covenant hath the same condition . . they are the same benefits that are conferred in baptism and the lords supper to the worthy receiver . therefore the same qualification is necessary for the reception : the antecedents is commonly granted . baptism uniteth to christ , and giveth us himself first , and with himself the pardon of all past sins , &c. the lords supper by confirmation giveth us the same things ; it is the giving of christ himself , who saith by his minister , take , eat , drink ; offering himself to us under the signs , and commanding us to take himself by faith , as we take the signs by the outward parts . he giveth us the pardon of sin , sealed and procured by his body broken , and his blood shed . . a member of christs church , against whom no accusation may be brought from some contradiction of his first profession , must be admitted to the lords supper ; but the new baptized may be ordinarily such : therefore if he can but say , i am a baptized person , he hath a sufficient principal title to the lords supper , coram ecclesia , before the church . [ i mean such as we must admit ] though some actual preparation be necessary , unless he be proved to have disabled his claim on that account either by nulling and reverting that profession , or by giving just cause of questioning it . . the church hath ever from the apostles dayes till now without question admitted the new baptized at age to the lords supper , without requiring any new species of faith to intitle them to it . i take the major therefore as past denial : i must confess as much as i am against separation , i never intend to have communion with master blakes congregation , if they profess not saving repentance and faith , and if he exact not such a profession , i say still he makes foul work in the church , and when such foul work shall be voluntarily maintained , and the word of god abused for the defilement of the church , and ordinances of god , it is a greater scandal to the weak and to the schismsticks , and a greater reproach to the church , and sadder case to considerate men , then the too common pollutions of others , which are meerly through negligence , but not justified and defended . let master baxters own words judge him , who makes the same foul work in the ordinance of baptism by admitting infants to it upon a parents or proparents ( as he terms them ) profession , when all his proofs of the necessity of profession to go before baptism are of the profession of the party himself to be baptized , and this device of a parents or proparents profession instead of the infants , is his own invention that hath not any intimation in scripture , and by his own proofs makes infants capable of the lords supper , and perverts the nature of sacraments , which his own words do fully express , thus . pag. , . the first argument of master gillespies . is from the nature of sacraments , which are to signifie that we have already faith in christ , remission of sin by him , and union with him . the sense of the argument is , that seeing sacraments , ( according to christs institution ) are confirming signs presupposing the thing signified both on our part and on gods ; therefore none should use them that have not first the thing signified by them . though i undertake not to defend all the arguments that other men use in this case , yet this doth so much concern the cause of baptism , which i am now debating , that i shall give you this reply to it . what divines are there that deny the sacraments to be mutual signs , and seals signifying our part as well as gods ? and how ill do you wrong the church of god by seeking to make men believe that these things are new and strange ? if it be so to you , it is a pity that it is so ; but sure you have seen master gataker's books against doctor ward , and davenant , wherein you have multitudes of sentences recited out of our protestant divines , that affi●m this which you call new . it is indeed their most common doctrine , that the sacrament doth presuppose remission of sins , and our faith , and that they are instituted to signifie these as in being . it is the common protestant doctrine , that sacraments do solemnize and publickly own and confirm the mutual covenant already entred in heart , as a king is crowned , a souldier listed , a man and woman maried after professed consent : so that the sign is causal as to the consummation and delivery ( as a key or twig and turff in giving possession ) but consequential to the contract as privately made , and the right given thereby ; so that the soul is supposed to consent to have christ as offered first [ which is saving faith ] and then by receiving him sacramentally delivered , to make publick profession of that consent , and publickly to receive his sealed remission . master cobbet [ cited by you ] might well say , that primarily the sacrament is gods seal ; but did he say that it is onely his , and not secondarily ours ? and in the next words you do in effect own part of the doctrine your self , which you have thus wondered at , as new and strange , saying ; [ i confess it is a symbol of our profession of faith . if you mean as you speak [ taking profession properly ] then . you yield that the sacrament is our symbol , and so declareth or signifieth our action as well as gods . . and it is not onely a sign of our profession , but a professing sign , and therefore a sign of the thing professed ; for the external sign is to declare the internal acts of the mind , which without signs others cannot know . as therefore the words and outwards actions 〈◊〉 ●wo distinct signs of the same internal acts , so are they two wayes of profess●●● my signal actions do not signifie my words ( which are plainer signs the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and therefore need not darker to express them ) but they both expre 〈…〉 mind ; so that they are not only symbols of our professi●● as you spea 〈…〉 t professing symbols . and if so , then they must be signs and professions of those internal acts , which correspond with them . the fourth argument of master gillespy is from rom. . . circumcision was a seal of that righteousness of faith ; therefore so is baptism , therefore it belongeth onely to justified believers . he that maketh it the instituted nature or use of circumcision to be a seal of righteousness of faith , which the person had before , doth make his circumcision a proof of his foregoing righteousness of faith . pag. . you cannot shew where ever the wicked are commanded to communicate with the church in the sacrament , but in this order ; first to be converted and repent , and so baptized , and so communicate , gillespy aarons rod blossoming , pag. , . the assumption [ that baptism it self is not a regenerating ordinance ] i prove thus . . because we read of no persons baptized by the apostles , except such as did profess faith in christ , gladly received the word , and in whom some begun work of the spirit of grace did appear ( i say not that it really was in all , but somewhat of it did appear in all . ) baptism even of the aged must necessarily precede the lords supper . pag. . my twelfth argument is from matth. . . [ friend , how camest thou in hither , not having on a wedding garment ? and he was speechless ] to [ come in hither ] is [ to come into the church of christ . ] by the wedding garment is undoubtedly meant , sincerity of true faith and repentance , so that i may hence argue : if god will accuse and condemn men for coming into his church , or the communion of saints without sincere faith and repentance , then it is not the appointed use of baptism to initiate those that profess not sincere faith and repentance . but infants profess not sincere faith and repentance , as is manifest by sense , therefore it is not the appointed use of baptism to initiate infants . pag. . the thirteenth argument is this : we must baptize none that profess not themselves christians ; but no infants profess themselves christians , as is manifest by sense , therefore we must baptize no infants . the major is certain , because it is the use of baptism to be our solemn listing sign into christs army , our , initiating sign , and the solemnization of our mariage to christ , and professing sign that we are christians , and we do in it dedicate and deliver up our selves to him in this relation as his own . so that in baptism we do not onely promise to be christians , but profess that we are so already in heart , and now would be solemnly admitted among the number of christians ; the minor i prove thus . . no man is truely a christian that is not truly a disciple of christ [ that is plain act. . . ] no man is truly a disciple of christ that doth not profess a saving faith and repentance , therefore no man that doth not so profess is truly a christian . the minor i prove thus : no man is truly a disciple of christ that doth not profess to forsake all contrary masters , or teachers , and to take christ for his chief teacher , consenting to learn of him the way to salvation : but no man maketh this profession that professeth not saving faith and repentance ; therefore no man that professeth not saving faith and repentance is truly a disciple of christ . the major is evident in the nature of the relation , the minor is as evident , in that it is an act of saving faith and repentance to forsake other teachers , and to take christ for our sole or chief teacher in order to salvation . . no man is truly a christian that professeth not to take christ for his lord and king , forsaking his enemies : but no man doth this but the professors of a saving faith . therefore , &c. . no man is a true christian that professeth not to take christ for his redeemer , who hath made propitiation for sin by his blood , and to esteem his blood as the ransom for sinners , and to trust therein ; but none do this but the professors of saving faith , therefore none else are christians . the major of all these three arguments is further proved thus : no man is professedly a christian that professeth not to accept of christ as christ [ or to believe in christ as christ ] but no man doth profess to take christ as christ , that professeth not to take or accept him as his priest , teacher and king ; therefore . &c. the major is plain in it self : the minor is as plain , it being essential to christ to be the priest , prophet , and king , and from these essentials related to us and accepted by us , doth our own denomination of christians arise , and that a bare assent without acceptance doth not make any one a christian is past doubt , and shall be further spoken to anon . if baptism then be commonly called our christening , and so be our entrance solemnly into the christian state , then is it not to be given to them that are not so much as christians by profession . and furthermore if a faith defective in the assenting part about the essentials of its object , serve not to denominate a man justly a christian , then a faith defective in the consenting or accepting part above the essentials of the object serveth not to denominate a man a christian ; but the antecedent is true , therefore so is the consequent . the antecedent is proved , because else the turks are christians , because they believe so many and so great things of christ ; and else a man might be a christian that denied christs death , or resurrection , or other essentials of christianity . the consequence is good , for christianity is as truly and necessarily in the will as in the understanding ; consent is as essential an act of covenanting as any . so that i may conclude that as he is no christian that professeth not to believe that christ is the priest , prophet , and king , so he is no christian that professeth not to consent and accept him for his priest , prophet , and king . the fourteenth argument is this : our divines ordinarily charge wicked men with contradiction of profession which is made in baptism , and they expound many places of scripture , which the arminians take as favouring their cause , to be meant according to the profession of wicked men . but it chargeth not such contradiction on persons baptized in infancy , therefore it supposeth no profession or baptism of theirs : and if we must baptize none that profess not saving faith and repentance , we must not baptize infants , who make no profession . pag. . argum. . if all that are baptized must engage themselves to believe presently ( in the next instant ) yea , or at any time hereafter , with a saving faith , then must they profess at present a saving faith ; or if we must baptize none that will not ingage to believe savingly , then must we baptize none that will not profess a saving faith ; but no infant will profess a saving faith , as is manifest by reason and experience , therefore we must baptize no infant . the antecedent is master blakes doctrine ; who affirmeth , that it is not necessary that they that come to baptism do profess a present saving faith , but its sufficient that they engage themselves to believe by such a faith . the consequence is proved thus ▪ . it is not the beginning of saving faith which we are to engage our selves to in the sacraments , but the continuance , therefore the beginning is presupposed in that engagement , and so we must no more baptize without a profession of faith in present , then without an engagement to believe hereafter ; the antecedent is proved thus ; there is no one word in scripture either of precept or example where any person in baptism doth engage , or is required to engage to begin to believe with a saving faith , or to believe with a faith which at present he hath not . shew but one word of scripture to prove this ( if you can ) if you cannot , i may conclude , that therefore we must not require that which we have no scripture ground to require . let master baxter shew but one word in scripture to prove this ( if he can ) that any person in baptism doth engage or is required to believe , or profess to believe that another , an infant may be admitted to baptism by virtue of it ; if he cannot , i may conclude , that therefore we must not require that which we have no scripture ground to require , nor admit any infant or other , by reason of a parents , proparents , or sureties profession or promise to believe for an infant . pag. . argum. . if there can be no example given in scripture of any one that was baptized without the profession ( and that his own , by his own self and no other parents , proparent or surety ) of a saving faith , nor any precept for so doing , then must not we baptize any without it ; but , the antecedent is true , therefore so is the consequent , and therefore we must baptize no infant , who makes no such profession , as all examples in scripture of any baptized are of , and every precept for baptism requires . let us review the scripture examples of baptism , which might afford us so many several arguments , but that i shall put them together for brevity . . i have already shewed that john required the profession of true repentance ( by the baptized himself ) and that his baptism was for remission of sin . . when christ layeth down in the apostolical commission , the nature and order of his apostles work , it is first to make them disciples , and then to baptize them into the name of the father , son , and holy ghost ; and as it is a making disciples , which is first expressed in matth. so mark expoundeth who those disciples are by patting believing before baptism , and that we may know that it is a justifying faith ( of the disciple himself ) that he meaneth , he annexeth first baptism , and then the promise of salvation , math. . . mark . . [ he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved . this is not like some occasional mention of baptism , but its the very commission of christ to his apostles for preaching and baptism , and purposely expresseth their several works in their several places and order . their first task is to make disciples , which are by mark called believers . the second work is to baptize them , whereto is annexed the promise of their salvation . the third work is to teach them all other things , which are afterward to be learned in the school of christ . to contemn this order ( as master baxter doth in infant baptism ) is to contemn all rules of order : for where can we expect to find it , if not here ? i profess my conscience is fully satisfied from this text , that it is one sort of faith , even saving , that must go before baptism , and the profession whereof ( by the party himself to be baptized ; he that believeth and is baptized , not another then the believer , make disciples and baptize them , not others then the disciples made ) the minister must expect , of which see what is before cited out of calvin and i●scator . i shall be amazed reading this passage , at the blindness of master baxter , if he see not how unanswerably his own words overthrow infant baptism , or his hypocrisie , if being satisfied , as he saith , in conscience of his own exposition he do not deny infant baptism , and bewail his alledging of matth. . . in his book termed , plain scripture proof of infants baptism , part. . chap. . and i pray god to deliver me from such hardness of heart , be adds , that it was saving faith that was required of the jews and professed by them , acts . , , . is shewed already , and is plain in the text . acts . the samaritans believed and had great joy , and were baptized into the name of jesus christ , vers. . . whereby it appeareth that it was both the understanding and will that were both changed , and that they had the profession of a saving faith ( even simon himself ) acts . . the condition on which the eunuch must be baptized was [ if he believed with all his heart ; ] which he professed to do , and that was the evidence that philip did expect . paul was baptized after true conversion , acts . . the holy ghost fell on the gentiles , acts . . before they were baptized , and they magnified god . and this holy ghost was the like gift as was given to the apostles , who believed on the lord jesus ; and it was accompanied with repentance unto life , acts . , . acts . , . lydia's heart was opened before she was baptized , and she was one that the apostles [ judged faithful to the lord ] and offered to them the evidence of her faith , acts . , , , . the example of the jaylour is very full to the resolution of the question in hand . he first asketh what he should do to be saved ; the apostle answereth him ; [ believe in the lord jesus , and thou shalt be saved and thy house ] so that it was a saving faith that is here mentioned . he rejoyced and believed with all his house , and was baptized that same hour of the night , or straightway . it is here evident that he professed that same faith which paul required , acts . . [ crispus the chief ruler of the synagogue believed on the lord with all his house● and many of the corinthians hearing , believed and were baptized ] here we have two proofs that it is saving faith that is mentioned , those in acts . . were baptized as believers in jesus christ . in a word , i know of no one word in scripture that giveth us the least intimation that ever man was baptized without the profession of a saving faith . there is constantly this order in the prescribed duty , that no man should seek baptism but a true believer , and no man should baptize any but those that profess this true belief , acts . . philip is determining a question , and giveth this in as the decision [ if thou believe with all thy heart thou mayest ] and to say that this is but de bene esse , meaning that it includeth not the negative , [ otherwise thou mayest not ] is to make philip to have deluded and not decided or resolved . use that liberty in expounding all other scripture , and you 'l make it what you please . a dogmatical faith is not the christian faith , nor anywhere alone denominateth men believers in scripture . i remember but one text , john . . where it is called believing on christ ; and but few more where it is simply called believing , but none where such are called believers , disciples or christians , or any thing that intimateth them , admitted into the visible church without the profession of saving faith . i conclude that all examples in scripture do mention onely the administration of it to the professors of saving faith , and the precepts give us no other direction ; and i provoke master blake ( as far as is seemly for me to do ) to name one precept or example for any other , and make it good , if he can . i conclude that all examples of baptism in scripture do mention onely the administration of it to the same persons who in their own persons were professors of saving faith ; and the precepts give us no other direction . and i provoke mr. baxter ( as far as is seemly for me to do ) to name one precept or example for baptizing any other , and make it good , if he can , and if not , by his own reason he ought to baptize no other , but must reject baptism of infants who do not in their own persons profess saving faith , and give over his vain plea of parents or proparents profession of saving faith , as entituling infants to baptism , which ( unless his violence and wilfulness of spirit blind him ) his own words and arguments will inforce to do . pag. . argum. . is from pet. . . [ the like figure whereto even baptism doth also now save us : not the putting away the filth of the flesh , but the answer of a good conscience toward god ] whence i thus argue : if baptism be appointed for our solemn admission into a state of salvation , as noahs ark received men into a state of safety from the deluge , then none should be baptized but those that profess that faith which entereth them into a state of salvation ; but no infant professeth that faith which entereth them into a state of salvation , as is manifest by sense and reason , therefore no infant should be baptized . here it is implied plainly that this is quoad finem instituentis , as to the end of him that instituted it , the common appointed of baptism , which the text mentioneth , though eventually it prove not the common effect through the errours of the receivers : and this appeareth , . in that it was spoken plainly in the text of the very nature and appointed use of baptism , and so of baptism as baptism , without any exception , limitation , or distinction . therefore it is not spoken of any different use that it is appointed for to the elect , as distinct from its common use to others . it s spoken of that signification and common use to which baptism is appointed , viz. to save , else we shall never be able to understand the use of it , or any ordinance from scripture , if we shall take liberty to say [ it is this to one , but not to another ] when the scripture saith no such thing , but speaks of the nature and use of it without distinction . else when it saith , [ circumcision is a seal of the righteousness of faith ] we may say with the anabaptists , it was so to abraham , but not to all others [ and when the lords supper is said to be appointed for the remembrance of christ ] we may say , that is but to some , and not to others , when as the text plainly speaks of the stated use of the ordinances to all . and in the type it is clear ; for it was not some onely , but all that entered noabs ark , that entered into a state of salvation from the deluge ; therefore so it is here as to the commanded use . . when baptism is said to save us , it s plainly meant of the state of salvation that baptism entereth us into and not of baptism ex opere operato , by the work done , effecting our salvation : and so baptism comprehendeth the state into which we are solemnly by it initiated . as a woman that is maried to an honourable man , or a souldier listed under an honourable commander , is said to be honoured , the one by mariage , the other by listing . where antecedent consent is the foundation on both sides of the honourable relations , and the subsequent state is the condition or state it self which is honourable , but the solemn signation is but the expression of the former , and passage to the later . . hereby it is apparent , that though the answer of a good conscience be the principal thing intended , and that saveth , yet the external baptism is here included as the sign and solemnization , so that when the apostle saith [ not the putting away of the filth of the flesh ] he means [ not the bare outward act of washing alone , or as such ] but baptism as it is entire , having the thing professed on ou● part , together with the professing sign . . it is therefore but by way of signification , obsignation and complemental exhibition , that baptism saveth , it being neither the fast or principal efficient or condition of it , but is valued as it is conjunct with the principal causes and condition for the attainment of these ends . . it is not a meer remote means leading towards a state of salvation that baptism is here affirmed to be , but an enterance or means of entrance into that state of salvation it self . as the heart-covenant or faith doth it principally , so baptism signally and complementally . this is plain . . because it is not said to help us towards a state of salvation , but expresly to save . . because the type which is here mentioned , viz. the ark , was such a means , that all that entered into it for preservation from the flood were actually saved from it . all this laid together doth confirm both the antecedent and consequence , of my argument . calvins words on the text signifie , . that no baptized men are excluded from salvation but hypocrites . . that they that are excluded from salvation for all their baptism are such as did dep●ave and corrupt it , and not justly use it . yet another argument may hence be raised , thus . argum. . if , according to the institution , the answer of a ●ood conscience must be joyned with baptism for the attaining of its end , then we must admit none that profess not that answer of a good conscience : but no infant doth profess that answer of a good conscience , as is manifest by sense : therefore we must admit no infant to baptism . but the former is certain from the text , for baptism is said to save ; that is , its appointed use , yet not the external washing , but the answer of a good conscience doth it ; therefore this is of necessary conjunction , and without it baptism cannot attain its end , but it is to be administred and received onely in order to the attainment of its end , and therefore never in a way by which the end is apparently not attainable . what this answer of a good conscience is , we shall further enquire anon . both the common exp●sitions fully confirm the point which i maintain . the assemblies annot. recit : both thus : [ hence by the answer of a good conscience we may understand that unfeigned faith , whereof they made confession at their baptism , and whereby their consciences were purified , and whereby they received the remission of their sin , &c. some understand by the answer of a good conscience , that covenant whereinto they entered at their baptism , the embracing whereof they testified by their unfeigned confession of their faith ] viz. such a faith as is aforesaid . pag. . argum. . no one may be admitted to baptism , who may not be addmitted a member of the church of christ . no one may be admitted to be a member of the church of christ without the profession of a saving faith ; therefore no one may be admitted to baptism without the profession of a saving faith . but no infant doth profess saving faith , as is manifest by sense , therefore no infant may be admitted to baptism . i speak of such admission to church membership as is in the power of the ministers of christ , who have the keys of his kingdom to open and let in , as well as to cast out . the major is past question , because baptism is our solemn entrance into the church , who were before entred by private consent , and accepted by the covenant of god . all the question is of the minor , which i shall therefore prove . . it is before proved that all the members of the church must be such as are visibly , solemnly , or by profession , sanctified from former sin , cleansed , justified persons of god , the heirs of the promise , &c. but this cannot be without the profession of a saving faith ; therefore , &c. . this is also before proved , where it was shewed , that no other are christians or disciples . . in acts . , . &c. the many thousand that were added to the church were such as gladly received the doctrine of saving faith and repentance , and continued in the apostles doctrine and fellowship , and breaking of bread and prayer , and so far contemned the world as to sell all , and make it common . and doubtless no man continued in those ways ( of doctrine fellowship , prayer , &c. ) without the profession of saving faith and repentance , for the very use of these is such a profession , of which saith calvin in act. . . [ quaerimus ergo veram christi ecclesiam ; hic nobis ad vivum depicta est ●jus im●g● , ac initium qui●em facit a doctrina , quae veluti ecclesiae anima est , ( not as barely heard , but as professed and received ) nec quamlibet doctrinam nominat , sed apost●lorum ; hoc est quam per ipsorum nanus silius dei tradiderat : ergo ubicunque personat pura vox eva●gelii , ubi in ejus professione m●●nent homines , ubi in ordinario ejus auditu ad profectum se exercent , illic indubio est ecclesia &c. quare non temere haec quatuor recenset lucas , quum desserib●re vult nobis rite constitutam ecclesiae statum . et nos ad hunc ordinem eniti convenit , si cupimus vere censeri ecclesia coram deo & angelis , non inane tantum ejus nomen apud homines jactare ] therefore we seek out the true church of christ : its image is here painted to the life , and verily it begins from the doctrine , which is as it were the soul of the church , neither doth he name any doctrine , but of the apostles , that is to say , which the son of god had delivered by their hands , therefore wheresoever the pure voice of the gospel sounds , where men remain in the profession of it , where they exercise themselves to profit in the ordinary hearing of it , there undoubtedly is the church . wherefore luke mentions these four things not without just ground , when he would describe the duly constituted state of the church , and its convenient that we should endeavour to attain to this order , if we desire to be a true church in the sight of god and angels , and not onely to boast of the vain name thereof before men . and vers. . it is said that the lord added daily to the church such as should be saved . it describeth them that were added to the church viz. that they were such as should be saved , or as beza yieldeth to another reading [ and so grotius and many others ] such as saved themselves from that untoward generation [ qui sese quotidie servandos recipiebant in ecclesiam ] who daily added themselves to the church that they might be saved . the church is the body of christ , col. . . . and none are members of his body but such as either are united to him , and live by him , or at least seem to do so . the church is subject to christ , and beloved of christ , and cherished by him : we are members of his body , of his flesh , and his bones , ephes . . , . and those that are against the general redemption , me thinks should be moved with the consideration , that it is the church that christ gave himself for , even the visible church which he purchased with his own blood , acts . . ephes. . . and he is the saviour of his body , vers. . but so he is not effectively the saviour of the professors of a faith that doth not justifie : {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} according to opinion , he is the effective savior of those that profess a justifying faith , and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} of the sincere : but of others neither way . hitherto divines have gathered from the plain texts of scripture , that there is but one church , one faith , and one baptism ; and those that had this faith really , were to be baptized , and were real members of the church , and that those that professed this faith , and so seemed to have it when they have it not , are visible members of the church , and are so taken , because their profession is sensible to us ; and by that they seem to have the thing prof●ssed ; but pae●obaptists , and chiefly master baxter are fallen into new conceits in these . . they feign a new christian faith to themselves , to wit , a believing immediate by the faith of a parent or proparent ; so that before there was but one christian faith , and now they have made two . . and so before , there was but one sort of real , serious , or sincere christians , consisting of such as had that real christian faith , ( in their own persons ) and now they have found out another sort of them , to wit , believers by anothers faith . . so they have feigned a new baptism , for the old baptism was for remission of sin , and burial and resurrection with christ , and to ingraffe men into the church , which is the body of christ , upon the profession of a saving faith : but now they admit to baptism , as they term it , infants without any profession of saving faith , made by them to seal an imaginary covenant of grace made by god to believing parents and their seed , without any covenanting or sealing by the baptized person , upon a pretended title of parents and proparents faith , and instead of baptizing [ as of old they did ] by putting under water and coming out again , so as to resemble christs burial and resurrection , and their conformity thereto , they call that baptism , and say falsly they baptize when they onely sprinkle or pour water on an infant without such dipping , as of old master baxter pag. . confesseth was used and expressed by the apostle , rom. . , . . and they have feigned also a new kind of church : for the church of christs constitution is but one , which is called visible from mens profession , and invisible from the faith professed . but they have made a church which consisteth of a third sort of members ; that is , of men that neither have saving faith nor profess it , but onely are infants , whose parents or proparents have faith . . to this end they have confounded the church and the porch , the vineyard & the adjac●nt part of the wilderness : those that heretofore were not so much as catechumeni , o● men in preparation for the church , but onely designed to holiness , and hoped and expected to be in after time when they came to understand the christian faith , church-members , are now brought into it , and are annumerated to true christians , before they once profess themselves to be such . . and hereby [ by infant baptism ] also one of the two sorts of teaching , which christ distinguisheth , matth. . , . is taken away , to wit , that teaching which draweth men to christ , and maketh them disciples , and perswadeth them to receive christ jesus the lord . for they take him for a disciple ( so master b●xter of baptism , part . . chap. . ) that is not learning to be a disciple , yea , though he do not so much as submit to learn , nor hath learned any preparatory truths , though yet he be not made a disciple indeed , nor profess to be . master baxter is deeply offended with master t. for denying infants to be christians or members of the church mediately , &c. but i shall say somewhat more concerning those infants that are asserted by him to be disciples , who do not so much as profess a saving faith , viz. that they are no members of the church at all , and are not so much as to be named christians , nor to be admitted into the visible church . no man can prove that ever one man was admitted a church-member in all the new testament , without the profession of a saving faith . otherwise we should have two distinct churches specially different , or two sorts of christianity , and christians differing tota specie , in the whole kind , because the profession by a parent and proparent which is made by him , their qualification doth make a difference specifical between such christians and church-members , and other christians and church members . when the jaylor acts . , , , . was admitted into the church by baptism , it was upon the professing of such a believing , by which both he and his houshold might be saved , as is before shewed . and so of all others in those times . pag. . argum. . if we once admit men to baptism without their own personal profession , we shall be utterly confounded , and not be able to give any satisfactory resolution whose profession may be a sufficient qualification to entitle to baptism , and so never be able to practice the doctrine of pae●obaptism , as being utterly uncertain what infants to baptize . this might be manifest by considering the several conceits of paedobaptists , some whereof make the faith of the church sufficient , some the faith of albelieving nation , some of any ancestors , some of the sureties , some of the next parents , some of the parent inchurched , some of the parent or proparent , and this they claim by a covenant which they can extend to no other then the parent , who is believer , not onely by profession , but also really before god , which can be known to no administrator of baptism ordinarily . paedobaptists speak so much and purposely of this point , particularly master baxter of baptism , part. . chap. . that one would think we may expect an exact resolution of this point from him , if from any man , and yet he is uncertain what to fix upon , and if he resolve on any thing it is without proof , as is shewed by master t. review , part. . sect. . . exercit. argum. . . review part . . sect. . . . part. . sect. . &c. and i perceive that the stress of the differences between master baxter and master t. did rest much in this , and no wise man will leave his grounds till he see where he may have better ( especially when the grounds are so plain as those of the antipaedobaptists are from christs institution , matth. . . mark . . , . and the apostles practice , which master baxter hath here so amply proved to be of the baptizing onely of persons who themselves profess a saving faith ) unless he mean to be for nothing , or of no religion . no man can tell where to fix , nor what we must consent to , to procure a title , if we once forsake the present ground of the persons own profession of saving faith who is to be baptized . what is said to the contrary is answered in the books forenamed , and it is not meet to be still writing for those lazie readers , that had rather erre then be at the pains of reading what is already written . none are disciples upon the account of your other faith , but of either saving faith or the profession of it ; none are christians on the account of your lower kind of faith , but onely of saving faith or the profession of it . once for all i let you know , that i take saving faith to be the constitutive or necessary qualification of a real or mystical member ; and profession of that faith to be the qualifying condition of visibility of membership . i confess still that the sealis to others besides believers , but though the promise be conditional , we must not seal to any but those that profess consent to the conditions ; and therefore not to any but those that profess to be true believers . pag. . i find by sad experience ( to my sorrow ) that a considerable part of some parishes , or villages are ignorant of the fundamentals . i have spoken with abundance that that know not christ is god or man , or either ( but they say he is a spirit ) nor that the holy ghost is god , nor why christ died , nor that any satisfaction is made for our sins , or any thing done , or necessary to their pardon , but our own repentance and amendment , and with some that know not that the soul goes to heaven before the resurrection , nor that the body shall ever rise again . now i would know of master blake whether all the children of these parents must be baptized again or not ? for certainly these have not a dogmatical faith , which is the thing that he saith entituleth to baptism . and then what certainty have we that any of our ancestors had a true dogmatical faith : and i would know of master baxter whether such children are not to be baptized agian ? sure if he say no , how can he allow that baptism which is without a profession of saving faith ? if he say yea , how can he assure himself that any of our ancestors had right baptism ? me thinks few that hold master baxters tenets should allow of the baptism of the greatest part of english people who are no better then those master baxter mentions , and yet neither master baxter nor other paedobaptists do baptize such when they come to profess understandingly the faith of christ . pag. . my twentieth and last argument is drawn from the constant practice of the universal church of christ . it hath been the constant practice of the catholick church from the apostles practice till now to require that profession of saving faith and repentance , as necessary , before they would baptize ; therefore it must be our practice also . but it is otherwise in infant baptism , as experience shews , therefore the practice of it is not right . for the proof of the churches practice , . i have already said enough about the apostles own practice and the church in their days . . the constant practice of the church since the apostles to this day is undoubtedly known . . by the very form of words in baptism , and . by the history of their proceedings therein . . it is certain that the church did ever baptize into the name of the father , son , and holy ghost . and as i have proved before , the voluntary seeking and reception of that baptism containeth the actual profession of saving faith . . it is certain that the persons to be baptized ( if at age ) did profess to believe in the father , son , and holy ghost . . it is also certain , that they did profess to renounce the flesh , the world , and the devil . . and it is certain that they promised for the future to live in new obedience , and thus they publickly entered the three stipulations ; credis ? credo : abrenuncias ? abrenuncio : spondes ? spondeo . doest thou believe ? i believe . doest thou renounce ? i renounce . doest thou promise ? i promise . it was the constant doctrine of the fathers and the church then , that faith and repentance ( given in vocation ) did go first , and that justification , adoption , and sanctification followed after . and so they took this justifying faith and repentance to be prerequisite to baptism , therefore they ever required before hand whether they believed in god the father , son , and holy ghost , and renounced the flesh , the world , and the devil ( as is aforesaid ) and caused them to profess this before they would baptize them . and as it is true of the ancient church , that they never baptized any without the profession of saving faith and repentance , so it is true of all the christian churches in the world that i can hear of to this day . the papists themselves do use the same words in baptism , as are before expressed , and require a profession . and though their false doctrine force them to misexpound their own words , yet custom hinders them from changing them ; and for the reformed churches it is past all question , by their constant practice , that they require the profession of a saving faith . the practice of the church of england till the late change , may be seen in the common prayer book , wherein all that is fore-mentioned is required , even from the infant , to whom the question is propounded , doest thou renounce ? doest thou believe ? wilt thou be baptized ? although they took the answer of the sureties as if it were the childes , and say in the catechism they now promise , and perform faith and repentance by their sureties . in the confession of faith of the assembly at westminster , cap. . and again in the shorter catechism , profession of faith in christ , and obedience to him is the thing required . they add also in the directory [ that all who are baptized in the name of christ do renounce , and by their baptism are bound to fight against the devil , the world and the flesh . ] calvin in acts . . saith [ quod non admittitur eunuchus ad baptismum , nisi fidem professus , hinc sumenda est universalis regula , non ante recipiendes esse in ecclesiam qui ab ea prius fuerant alieni , quam ubi testati fuerint christo se credere . est enim baptismus quasi fidei appendix : ideoque ordine posterior est . deinde si datur sine fide , cujus est sigillum , & impia & nimis crassa est prophanatio . ] that the eunuch was not admitted to baptism till he professed faith . hence this universal rule is to be gathered , that those are not to be received into the church , who before were strangers from it , till they first testifie they believe in christ : for baptism is as it were an appendix to faith , and therefore is later in order : then if it be given without faith , of which t is the seal , t is a wicked and too gross a prophanation . here note . . that baptism ( as received ) is the seal of our faith ( how much soever denied by master blake ) as it is the seal of gods promise as administred . . that the constant order is that baptism follow faith . . and that it is no better then an impious profanation of it , if it go without faith ; that is . . if the party seek it without the presence of faith . . if the pastor administer it without the profession of faith . to like purpose speak many more , but to salve infant baptism they say that gods promise to an infant , whom they imagi●●● be born in the church , is instead of profession , that for it they by a judgement of charity are taken to be regenerate , and that it is as much as we have of persons of age , and is sufficient warrant to baptize them . but . they prove none of these . . nor are they true . . nor were they true would they warrant infant baptism , when the institution is ( as they confess ) to baptize them who believe by the preaching of the gospel to them , matth. . . mark . . . whereby the inadvertency of the generality of protestant divines in this point may be discerned , and by the reading of this book all intelligent persons may perceive master baxters deceitfulness or heedlesness , and , if he perfist in defending , infant baptism , his unreasonable pertinacie in his conceit , and , if he do not declare his forsaking his doctrine in his book of baptism , his impenitencie and unrighteous dealing with the church of god which he hath injured . anti-pædobaptism, or, the second part of the full review of the dispute concerning infant-baptism in which the invalidity of arguments ... is shewed ... / by john tombs ... tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng infant baptism -- early works to . baptists -- controversial literature. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion anti-paedobaptism , or the second part of the full review of the dispute concerning infant-baptism : in which the invalidity of arguments inferring a duty from a positive rite of the old testament concerning a positive rite of the new , by reason of analogy between them , is shewed ; and the argument against infant-baptism , from christs institution , matth. . . the sayings and practice in the new testament is made good against the writings of mr. stephen marshall , mr. richard baxter , mr. thomas blake , mr. thomas cobbet , mr. john cotton , dr. nathaniel homes , mr. robert bailee , dr. daniel featley , mr. john brinsley , mr. cuthbert sydenham , dr. henry hammond , mr. thomas fuller , and others . by john tombs , b. d. but speaking the truth in love , we may grow up into him in all things , which is the head , even christ. ephes. . . london , printed by henry hills , and are to be sold at his house at the sign of sir john oldcastle in py-corner . mdcliv . to the right honorable the lord president and council to his highness the lord protector . i presume to present to your honors a continuation of the full review of a dispute of which the first part was presented to his highness more than a year ago . to which writing i take my self many ways obliged , not onely because of my own engagements , but also , and that chiefly , by reason of the important concernment that the truth be preserved . i am sensible that the increase of books is thought a grievance by many , and that none are more unwelcome , than such as are about controversies , specially when they tend to unsettle men in what they have received , and in no point more than in this . few have abilitie to discern in disputes which part preponderates : few are willing to bestow pains in such unpleasant studies : few can digest a truth which exposeth to reproach and loss . these and other considerations had kept me from this adventure , if my allegiance to christ had not bound me to vindicate his truth , and charity to men tied me to endeavour their undeceiving . wisdom must be justified by her children : nor can he give a good account to christ at his appearing , who shall , out of undue respects , leave to spoil the truth with which he is intrusted . polemick writing are to few delightfull , yet necessary ; it being unlikely that practice of piey should flourish when doctrines of faith and worship are corrupted . they that decline studying and meddling with controversies , if they be not sluggish , yet are likely unwary , not heeding that thereby the wall is unrepaired , which should keep out seducers from perverting the churches . peace is indeed very desirable , but truth is put first , zech. . . were men better temper'd than commonly they are , dissenters might ventilate things in question with less offence ; i mention it with rejoycing , as a sign of gods presence with us , in hope that the same spirit of unanimity will diffuse it self among our christian brethren throughout the nation . that dissenters and contenders in writing , and otherwise , in this and other points , for their several judgments , have acted hitherto in the business of approving publick preachers with much harmony of minde , and agreement of votes ; surely the work of christ would be much advanced by a firm consociation in order to the work of christ so far as we agree , though there should remain , as no doubt there will , diversities of opinions in things disputable . nor do i despair that disputes will be mannaged with more sweetness of spirit , candour , and tenderness towards dissenters than formerly they have been . in this hope my intention is ( with gods assistence ) to prosecute the dispute begun , a part whereof i now tender to your honours , being desirous that my self , and the cause i mannage should stand right in your eys , who are the eys of the common-wealth . for whom i beg light from heaven toguide you in your way , and help from him , who hath been hitherto your strength , and who will be with you , while you be with him , and remain , london , june . . your honours humble and devoted servant in the lord , john tombes . the contents . sect. . of the reason and purport of this writing . sect. . that no good argument can be drawn from positive rites of the old testament to prove a divine appointment in positive rites of the new , nor is it true which mr. baxter saith that infants admission into the church is fully determined in the old testament . sect. . mr. blakes plea for arguments from analogy in meer positive rites of the old testament , and mr. baxters speech about infant admission as determined in it , are refelled . sect. . mr. baxters speech about the little sayd for antipaedobaptism is vain , and his speech about the antiquity of infant-baptism , is very inconsiderate ; and his speech about the difficulty and importance of the point in question ▪ is examined . sect. . the first argument against infant-baptism from the institution mat. . . mark . . and the practise in the new testament is urged . sect. . mr. blakes exception , against the major , that such institution or example as i require for inifant-baptism is unnecessary , is refelled . sect. . mr. marshalls exceptions that matth. . . is not the institution of baptism , that onely disciples are not appointed to be baptized , that this was a rule onely for a church to be constituted , are refelled . sect. . the exceptions of mr. cobbet , mr. blake &c. against the arguing from the order of teaching afore baptizing , of mr. marshal , mr. hussey , &c. that baptizing is discipling , are refelled . sect. . the exception of mr. marshal , mr. blake , mr. cobbet , that nations are appointed to be baptized matth. . . and so infants , is refelled . sect. . that infants of believers are not disciples appointed to be baptized , matth. . . sect. . mr. cottons allegations in his dialogue ch . . to prove infants disciples , are shewed to be insufficient . sect. . mr. baxters allegation of acts . . to prove infants disciples , is fully answered , and his arguments retorted . sect. . the arguments are vindicated which are brought to prove infants not meant by disciples acts . . sect. . infants discipleship is not proved by mr. baxter from lev. , . which speaks of the israelites being gods servants . sect. . that infants are not proved to be christs disciples from being subjects to christ , christians , belonging to christ , luke . , . matth. . . mark . . sect . dr. featlie and mr. stephens arguments from john . for infant-baptism , are answered , and baptism shewed not to be a cause of regeneration , and mr. cranfords words are considered . sect. . the . cap. of mr. baxters plain scripture-proof , &c. is answered , and mark . , , , . is shewed to make nothing for infants visible church-membership and baptism , and his description of visible church-membership is considered and his argument from deut. . . shewed to be insufficient . sect. . the . chap. of mr. blakes vindic. foeder : about christs speech of little children matth. . . is answered , and my sayings in my postscript vindicated . sect. . animadversions on mr. cobbets . just vindic. part . . ch . . and the arguings of dr. homes , mr. bailee , mr. fuller , mr. sidenham from the words and actions of christ to little ones are answered . sect. . the practise of infant-baptism is not proved , acts . . by baptizing an houshold , against mr. marshall , dr. homes mr. bailee , mr. cook , mr. sidenham , mr. fuller . sect. . that cor. . . proves not the practise of infant-baptism against mr. bailee , mr. cobbet , &c. sect. . mr. blakes argument from gal. . . is answered . sect. . mr. brinsley and dr. homes their conjecture from heb. . . to prove infant-baptism , is refelled . sect. . dr. hammond his way of proving infant-baptism from the jews baptizing proselytes children , is shewed to be vain . sect. . dr. hammonds elusion of matth. . . alleged against infant-baptism ▪ is refelled . sect. . dr. hammond neither from cor. . ▪ nor from sayings of ancients proves the apostles to have baptized infants . anti-paedobaptism , or a full review of the dispute concerning infant-baptism . sect . i. of the reason and purport of this writing , having by my postscript , antidote , addition to the apology , praecursor , and ample disquisition of the meaning of the ingraffing , rom. . the promise , acts . . the holinesse of children , . cor. . . formerly printed , endeavoured to vindicate my self , and the doctrine of anti paedobaptism , which i assert , from the objections which have been published to hinder the entertainment of it ; i now proceed with the divine assistance to review the dispute about infant baptism , which was made publick by the printing of my exercitation and examen of mr. marshal's sermon in the year . which is become the more laborious and tedious to me by reason of the many antagonists , and their several writings since published , notwithstanding the equal and serious motion i made in the epilogue of my examen , that i might see some one writing , either of the assemblies , or of their commitees , or the london ministers ( who in their attestation ceasur'd my positions as erroneous and pernicious ) in which the whole strength of the proofs for infant-baptism might be put together , and readers with my self eased of the trouble and charge of buying and perusing so many several writings , which some disclaim , and others magnifie . but this motion which would have quickly brought the matter to an issue , and made a shorter dispatch of the dispute than is now likely to be , being so far from meeting with a ready acceptance , that thereby an occasion was taken to misrepresent me as a braving challenger , and one that minds self-ost●ntation more than the truth of god ( which is an artifice unworthy the users ) and an opposite course taken to bear me down with a floud of injurious calumnies , and impetuous rather than considerate antagonists , i am put to this choice , either to weary my self by answering so manie several writings , or else give advantage to them who are ready to take all advantages how indirectly soever ( as appears by master baxters dealing with me about the dispute at bewdly , master simon ford of reading his dealing with me about the passages in the act at oxford . ) to possesse people with prejudices against me ▪ , and of the unanswerablenesse of what is brought for infant-baptism , if they can but pretend that it is declined , though it be neglected onely for the futility and feeblenesse of it . but the former being more eligible for the truths sake , i conceive my self engaged to proceed in the review of the dispute . the writings which with mine own i am to review , are either such as are directly written against me , or such as at least for the truths sake i conceive meet to examine , whether they meddle with my writings or not ; of the former sort are master stephen marshals defence of his sermon , master john gerees vindiciae paedobaptismi , and vindiciae vindiciarum , doctor nathanael homes his animadversions on my exercitation , master thomas blake his answer to my letter , and a great part of his vindiciae foederis , and most of all mr. richard baxter his plain scripture proof of infants church-membership and baptism ▪ and together with these , what mr. thomas cobbet of new england , in his just vindication hath thought fit to oppose against my examen , sent in a manuscript to new england , and delivered to him to examine , as mr. cotton informed me by his letter , though i be not named in mr. cobbets book others there are , which though they do not expresly oppose me , yet mr. m. mr. b. or some other , do direct me to them , as mr. cottons dialogue , vossius his theses , mr. baillees anabaptism , mr. drew , mr. church , mr. stephens , dr. featly , mr. lyford , doctor hammond , &c. mr. rutherfurd is one , to whose writing mr. baxter pag. . directs me , but i have not yet met with ●ame other thing which he hath written about this argument , than what i find in his temperate plea , chap. , . yet when any other thing of his , or any other authors , occurrs , which suggests any thing considerable , besides what others before have published , and is already answered , i do intend to take it into the review , and to deal impartially , as one that seeks truth , and is sensible that he is accountable to the lord about writing as well as speaking ; neverthelesse , in handling thereof , i shall not tie my self , any further than i see necessary , to set down each authors words at large , but so much of them as i conceive requisite , and according to their meaning , and the force of their arguments , as rightly as i can . the method i once intended to use in this review was according to the order of my examen , but i shall now use such an arbitrary method as i shall judge most clear and comprehensive , beginning with mr. richard baxter his three first chapters of the first part of his book fore-named . sect . ii. that no good argument can be drawn from the positive rites of the old testament , to prove a divine appointment in positive rites of the new ; nor is it true as mr b. saith , that infants admission into the church is fully determined in the old testament . master b. begins the dispute , pag. . with a preface tending to move affections , otherwise than pleaders before the aropagites were to do , and was desired of mr. b. that logick might be used , and rhetorick for born ; but however the preface is framed , and takes with many , yet so many mistakes in it are shewed in my praecursor , as might deterre readers from blinding their eyes by the dust raised in it . he then tells us he must needs lay down several positions that must necessarily be well understood before they could understand the point in hand , and these are no fewer than ten , which if they had been all omitted , i see not but that the point might have been as well understood as now it is . i do not remember where master b. makes any use of them for clearing the point , and therefore i judge them , with his three propositions , chap. . to serve onely to forestall mens minds , if they be not used to dull the readers attention ere he come to the point , as the turks use their asapi to blunt the christians swords by killing them afore their janizaries fall on . but what ever the intent was , there are sundry passages that require animadversions ; his first position is , that the holy ghost speaks of somethings in scripture more fully , and of others more sparingly , which i grant to be true ; but i like not his instance when he saith , that the scripture speaks little concerning the heathen that never heard the gospell , whether any of them be saved ? or upon what terms he dealeth with them for life or death ? far is it [ saith he , ] from my reach , to discover the holy ghosts mind in this : whereas me thinks the scripture speaketh much of this , ephes. . , , , . rom. . & . & . & . chapters . and to be doubtfull , whether they that never heard the gospel were saved , and upon what terms god dealt with them for life or death , is in my apprehension to be unresolved whether there be not another way of salvation than by christ ; whether a man living and dying a professed idolater without repentance , may not be saved by his moral dem●anour ; and whether pelagianism be not true , that by nature without grace men may be saved . vedelius in his book de deo synagogae charged barlet the arminian with a dangerous position in writing in verses before a book of manasseh ben israel the jew , that the god of iews and christians was one , and intimating that iews remaining in denial of christ might have god for their god , contrary to iohn . . and . ● . act. . iohn . . and . . . iohn . how much more dangerous a conceit must this be , much lessening the grace of god in christ , tending to pelagianism , and to make idolatrie a venial sin , to imagine that men that never had the gospel nor the prophets , but were such , even the best of them , as are described rom. . . &c. that they should be saved , when the scripture so plainly tels us , revel . . . . & . . that all idolaters shall be without ? but i leave master b. to doctor prideaux his lecture de salute ethnicorum to resolve him in this point . and whereas he saith the scripture speaketh sparingly of infants , it seems then some at least of his texts he brings for infants discipleship and visible church-membership are impertinent , sith they are so many ; and whereas he instanceth in the case of insant-baptism among such things as are not plainly determined in scripture , he doth thereby gainsay the title of his book , which he cals plain scripture proof of infants baptism ; nor is he relieved by what he replies in his praefestinant is morator , where nothing is brought out of his words , before or after , which shews i have not rightly alleged his words in my praecursor , sect. . and his words pag. . [ the grounds of it are very easie and plain , though to many it be difficult to discern how it is from those grounds inferred ] do confirm my observation , that he contradicted his title , sith the inference which is the proof , is in them confessed to be difficult . but what he saith in the words following , pag. , . is more exactly to be scanned , as touching the main basis of paedo-baptism . the new testament ( saith mr. b. ) speaks more sparingly of that which is more fully discovered in the old , what need the same thing be so done twice , except men had questioned the authority of the old ? the whole scripture is the perfect word and law of god ; & if he should reveal all his mind in one part , what use should we make of the other ? how silent is the n. t. concerning christian magistracy ? which made the anabaptists of old deny it ; where find you a christian in the new testament that exercised the place of a king , a parliament-man , or justice of peace , or the like ? so of an oath before a magistrate , of war , of the sabbath , &c. how sparing is the new testament ? and why ? but because there was enough said of them before in the old ; this also is the very case in the question in hand . the main question is not , by what sign members are to be admitted into the church ? or whether by a sign or without ? but at what age they are to be admitted members ? now this is as fully determined in the old testament , as most things in the bible , and therefore what need any more ? answ. mr. b. here asserts in the question about infant baptism , that it is as fully determined in the old testament as most things in the bible , at what age persons should be admitted members into the church , and therefore what need any more ? which if true , mr. b. had done well to have spared the allegation of mat. . . acts . . luk. . . . mat. . . mark . . rom. . , , , , , . mat. . , , . rom. . . . cor. . , mark . , . and . , , , . and others the allegation of act. . . and . . . cor. , . for infant-baptism , not troubling the reader with more , when , if he speak true , the proof might have been made by fewer texts ; frustra fit per plura , quod fieri potest per pauciora . and indeed when paedo-baptists speak not like wranglers , but ingenuously confesse the naked truth , they acknowledge there is no expresse precept or example for infantbaptism in the new testament , but they must flye to the old , master marshal in his sermon of baptizing infants , pag. . doctor young in the passage cited in my praecursor , sect. . eaton and taylor , defence , pag. . do not you conclude infants must be baptized , not because the new testament expresly saith so , but because you find it in the old ; the jews children were circumcised , therefore christians children must be baptized . the assembly at westminster answer to the dissenting brethren touching ordination , pag. . if par ratio will not serve turn to prove an ordinance of christ , or at least to warrant a practice , how will our brethren prove baptizing of infants ? which confessions me thinks should deterre paedobaptists fom alleging precept and practice of it out of the new testament ; or at least readers and hearers should learn more wit than to be cheated thereby , when their own confessions do shew that they are brought onely to fill up books , and to deceive the poor simple readers . but let us view mr. b. words better . he saith , the main question is not by what sign members are to be admitted into the church , or whether by a sign or without , but at what age they are to be admitted members ? now this is as fully determined in the old testament as most things in the bible . mr. m. in his defence , pag. . saith thus ; first , for the point of will worship i shall desire you to prove this conclusion , that all things belonging to christian worship , even in the circumstances of it , even the ages and sexes of the persons to whom the ordinances are to be applyed , must expresly be set down in the new testament ; if you prove not this , you say nothing to the purpose , for this is our very case , pag. . this about infantbaptism touches but a circumstance of age . answ. t is true , the main question is , whether infants are to be baptized ? but they that deny it , do so , not meerly because of their age , but because they appear not ordinarily to be disciples of christ , or believers , or capable of these in act . their admission by baptism is questioned because of their nondiscipleship , not precisely by reason of their age . mr. b. in his appendix to his plain scripture proof &c. pag. . and that in so material a thing as infantbaptism , and so about the proper subject of so great an ordinance ; and if you judge infantbaptism a meer circumstance , you are much mistaken . if the question about infantbaptism touch but a circumstance of age , then the question about infant-communion toucheth but a circumstance of age , and if men may without precept or example in the new testament of infant baptism be acquitted from willworship , because it toucheth but a circumstance of age , by the same reason they may be acquitted from willworship , who give infants the communion , because it toucheth but a circumstance of age . our lord christ and his apostles having determined who are to be baptized , it is manifest willworship or humane invention to baptize others than he and they have appointed ; and it is so much the worse , because it is not onely about the proper subject of so great an ordinance , but also the main end and use of baptism , by altering of which the ordinance is quite changed into another thing , and the church of god exceedingly corrupted . but letting that passe , admission of infants into the church ( mr. b. saith ) is fully determined in the old testament ; if he mean not the christian visible church , he speaks ambiguously , and if his words be meant of the christion visible churah ( of which onely is the question ) then it is as fully determined in the old testament , that infants should be admitted into the visible church christian as most things in the bible , as that god made heaven and earth , idols are vanities , fornication a sin , &c. but surely none will believe mr. b. in this , but he that is so simple as to believe every word . me thinks he should not have said such a word at bewdly , where he saith in his history , were many antient stayd christians , that would not as children be t●st up and down , and carried too and fro with every wind of doctrine , except he presumed they would take what he said , as true , without trial . formerly this was the received doctrine , that baptism was the sacrament of admission into the christian church , that baptism and the lords supper were the sacraments of the new testament , instituted by christ himself , that circumcision . and the passeover , and the whole jewish church policy are abrogated , which if true , it is very bold to say , that infants are to be admitted into the visible church christian , is as fully determined in the old testament , as most things in the bible , when there is not a word in all the old testament about the age , or way of admission into the visible church christian. but where doth mr. b. find this admission so fully determined in the old testament ? in the dispute at bewdly he denied the precept of circumcision to be the ordinance of visible church-membership , and in my praecursor , sect. i say , as yet i can fi●d no such law or ordinance for infants visible church-mem-bership save what is injoyned concerning circumcision . to w th he replies in his praefestinantis morator , what not yet ? and yet dare you boast so confidently of your prepared confutation ? yet can you find no law that made women church-members ? nor the uncircumcised males in the wilderness ? o the power of prejudice ! whereto i say , though i boast not of my prepared confutation , but speak of it modestly , yet i find no cause to be lesse confident of my prepared confutation , because of these frivolous interogations of mr. b. it is not the power of prejudice which is the reason why i find not a law or ordinance for infants visible church-membership , but because i do not see or read of law or ordinance for infants visible church-membership besides that of circumcision , either upon my own search , or mr. bs. or others shewing ; i asked once a preacher at bewdley where it was ? he told me it was deut. . , , , . i told him i find a relation of a fact , of a thing that was done , but not a word of any law , ordinance precept or command , determining thus it shall be , this shall be done ▪ &c. or any other form of speech that imports a law , ordinance , precept , statute or command to make female infants visible churchmembers ; much lesse do i find an appointment , law , ordinance , that some infants were once to be admitted members of the visible church ( which mr. b. should have proved to be unrepealed , according to his assertion , cap. . . ) except the law of circumcising infants . and therefore my confutation of mr. bs. argument , cap. . might be sufficient , if i only denied such an ordinance or appointment , till it be shewed . i do confess my weakness in my answering at bewdley , in that i permitted mr. b. to run on in the proof of an ordinance unrepealed , afore he had shewed me where that ordinance is , but i perceived therein what i feared still , that i should not in a verball dispute observe what was necessary to be heeded . but i may say with truth mr. b. either understands not what is meant by a law , ordinance , appointment liable to repeal , or still binding , or loves to pervert words from the genuine sense , as he did the word [ accuse ; ] or else he is unwilling to speak plainly , who being provoked to shew in what text of scripture that pretended law , ordinance , appointment is , doth not yet shew it . and for his assertion here , it exceeds all faith , that infant admission into the church ( meaning the visible church christian ) should be as fully determined in the old testament , at most things in the bible . , but wherever , mr. b. imagines it is fully determined in the old testament , the assembly at westminster in their confession of faith , chap. . art. . allege but one text out of the old testament , viz. gen. . . . for admission of infants by baptism into the visible church , and if mr. m. their champion in this point expresse their minds , they deduce infant-baptism from this principle , all gods commands and institutions about the sacraments of the jews bind us as much as they did them in all things which belong to the substance of the covenant , and were not accidental to them . which how false it is , how contrary to the tenet of divines former and later , is shewed in my examen , part ▪ . sect. . to which i may add the assemblies confession of faith , chap. . art. . all which ceremonial laws are now abrogated under the new testament . and if all of them be abrogated , how can it be true that the law about circumcising infants still binds ? but mr. m. in his defence pag. . conceives his argument from the analogy of the ceremonial law of circumcision , which he calls his analogical argument , pag. . good ; on the contrary i deny any argument from analogy of the ceremonial law good in meer positive ceremonies to prove thus it was in the old testament , therefore it must be so in the new . and thus i argue , . arguments from analogy in meer positive rites of the old testament to make rules for observing meer positive ceremonies of the new wthout institution gathered by precept or apostolical example or other declaration in the new testament , do suppose that without institution there may be par ratio , a like reason of the use of the one ceremony as the other . but this is not true ; for in positive rites there is no reason for the use of this & not another thing in this manner to this end , by , or to persons , but the will of the appointer . for there is not any thing natural or moral in them , they have no general equity , they are supposed to be meerly not mixtly positive . therefore where there is not the like institution , there is not a like reason ; and therefore this opinion of analogy in positive rites from a parity of reason without institution in the new testament is a meer fancy , and no good ground for an argument . to apply it to the case in hand , circumcision and baptism are meerly positive ordinances ; mr. b. cals them , p. . positives about worship . generally sacraments by divines are reckoned among meer positives ; chamier . panstr . cath. tom. . l. . c. . sect. . nulla vera ratio sacramentorum potest consistere absque institutione . l. . c. . sect. . nullum sacramentum est à natura sua , itaque prorsus ab institutione . the places are innumerable in protestant writers and others to prove this ; were it not that i find my antagonists often forget what is elsewhere yielded by them , i should not say so much , the thing being so plain , that there is nothing natural or moral in them , because till they were appointed ( which was thousands of years after the creation ) they were not used , nor taken for signs of that which they signified . the reason ▪ then of baptism and circumcision is meerly institution ; if then there be not the like institution , there is not the like reason . this argument is confirmed by mr. m● . grant , defence , pag. . . the formal reason of the iews being circumcised was the command of god ▪ therefore there is not the like reason of infant-baptism as of infant-circumcision without the like command of god. but there is no expresse command for infant-baptism as mr. m. confesseth , therefore there is not par ratio , like reason of the one as the other . . i thus argue , if all the laws and commands about the sacraments , positive rites and ceremonies of the jews , be now abrogated , then no argument upon supposed analogy or parity of reason from the institution of those abrogated rites can prove a binding rule to us about a meer positive rite of the new testament . for how can that make a binding rule to us about another meer positive rite without any other institution , which it self is abrogated ? that which binds not at all , binds not about another thing , v. g. baptism . but all the laws and commands about the sacraments , positive rites and ceremonies of the jews , are now abrogated , as is proved in my examen , part . . sect . . and confessed by the assembly conf. of faith , chap. . art . . ergo none of them bind , this argument is confirmed by the words of mr cawdrey sabbat . rediv. part . . chap. . sect . . pag. . no ceremonial commandement can infer a moral commandement . the reason of our assertion is this , because partial commandments given to some nation or persons ( as the ceremonial precepts were ) cannot infer a general to oblige others , even all the world . again , sect. . pag. . first it is so in all other like special and ceremonial commandements concerning dayes , whensoever the particular day was abrogated , the whole commandement concerning that day was utterly abolished , the law of circumcision and of the passeover is expired as well as the sacramental and ceremonial actions commanded by that law . this mr. m. conceived he had prevented by supposing that in some commands about the sacraments of the iews , are some things that belong to the substance of the covenant , and limiting his assertion to those . and when in my examen pag. . i argued , that in no good sense it can be true that some of the commands of god about the sacraments of the jews contained things belonging to the substance of the covenant , he tels us pag. , . of his defence , that our sacraments have the same substance with theirs , the same general nature , end , and use ; which he makes in these things , theirs were seals of the covenant , so ours , &c. but none of all these are to the purpose , his allegations tending onely to prove that our sacraments and the jews have the same general nature , which he calls substance , but not a word to shew that any command about them belonged to the substance of the covenant , but as if he were angry , or did disdain a man should question his dictates , onely recites his meaning , and a passage or two of protestant authors , and never answers a word to my objection , exam. pag. . that in no good sense could it be true that some commands of god about the sacraments of the jews did contain things belonging to the substance of the covenant . yea when i animadverted on that saying in his sermon , the manner of administration of this covenant was first by types , shadows and sacrifices , &c. it had been convenient to have named circumcision , that it might not be conceived to belong to the substance of the covenant : i reply , saith he , in his defence , pag. . this is a very small quarrell , i added , &c. which supplies both circumcision and other things . which words in the plain construction of them do note , that circumcision is comprehended in his &c. as belonging to the manner of administration , not to the substance of the covenant . and yet pag. . he hath these words , i have already proved ( that is no where , no not so much as in attempt ) that circumcision though a part of their administration did yet belong to the substance ( meaning of the covenant of grace ) belong to it , i say , not as a part of it , but as a means of applying it . so uncertain and enterferring one another are his speeches about this thing . and yet this salve he adds is not true in any sense in which the word [ substance ] may be taken . for if he mean by [ applying the covenant ] the signifying christ to come , or the spiritual part promised , so circumcision was a type or shadow , and therefore according to his doctrine belonging to the administration that then was , not to the substance of the covenant ; if he mean by [ applying the conant ] sealing or assuring the righteousnesse of faith to mens consciences , neither doth this make it of the substance of the covenant , the covenant being made before , and though circumcision had never thus applyed it , the substance of the covenant had been the same , yea the covenant was the same in substance , according to his own doctrine , . years before circumcision did apply it to any ; now i do not conceive any thing is to be said of the substance of a thing , when the thing may be entire without it ; so that in this point i deprehend in mr. m. speeches nothing but dictates ; and those very uncertain and confused . secondly , saith he , pag. . when i say that gods commands about their sacraments bind us , my meaning never was to assert , that the ritual part of their sacraments do remain in the leas● particle , or that we are tyed to practise any of those things , but onely that there is a general and analogical nature , wherein the sacraments of the old and new testament do agree , which he thus a little before expresseth , my meaning being plainly this , that all gods commands and institutions about the sacraments of the jews as touching their general nature of being sacraments and seals of the covenant , and as touching their use and end , do bind us in our sacraments , because they are the same ; whereto i reply , that mr. m. supposeth the commands of god are about the general nature of being sacraments and seals of the covenant : which is a most vain conceit , there being no such command or institution , there 's no such command that sacraments should have the general nature of sacraments , or be seals of the covenant , or that they should signifie christ and seal spiritual grace : these things they have from their nature , as he saith , which is the same without any institution . the natures , essences and quiddities of things are eternal , invariable , and so come not under command , which reacheth onely to things contingent , that may be done , or not be done . did ever any wise man command to men that man should be a reasonable living body , or whitenesse a visible quality , or fatherhood a relation ? and to say that god commands sacraments to seal the covenant , what is this but to say that god commands himself ? for he alone by the sacraments seals to us the covenant or promise of christ , or grace by him . all commands of god are concerning what the persons commanded should do , and they must needs be of particulars , not of generals , for actio est singularium , action is of singular persons and things . though god may command man to think or acknowledge sacraments to be seals of the covenant , yet it were a most vain thing for god to command that sacraments should be seals of the covenant , or to have this general end or use , to seal or signifie christ , and spititual grace , to us , which belongs onely to himself to do by his declaration of his meaning in them . such commands as mr. m. imagines , are a meer chimaera , or dream of his brain . secondly , the like is to be sayd concerning his conceit , that such commands bind us in our sacraments ; for to bind us is to determine what is to be done , or not to be done by us ; but such imagined commands do not determine what is to be done or not to be done by us , and therefore cannot bind at all . thirdly , when mr. m. confesseth we are not tyed to the least particle of the ritual part or any practise of those things , he doth thereby acknowledge that all the commands of god about the sacraments of the jews , which were all about rituals , are quite abrogated . for all sacraments are rites or ceremonies , and to imagine a command about a sacrament , and not about a ritual part or ceremony , is to imagine a command about a sacrament , which is not a sacrament , chamier . panstr . cathol . tom. . lib. . chap. . sect. . arguing against suarez the jesuit , that dreamed of a sacrament appointed in the law of nature for remedy of original sin , yet had no determined ceremony , speaks thus ; sacramentum aliquod institutum à deo , ceremonia nulla determinata à deo , quis capiat ? sacramentum institui et ceremoniam non determinari ? aequè dixerit loquutum esse deum , et tamen vocem nullam protulisse , nam aequè sacramenti genus est ceremonia et vox loqisutionis . fourthly , were it supposed that there were some commands about the general nature of sacraments , binding us , though every particle and practice of the ritual part be abrogated , yet this would not reach mr. m. intent , which is to prove the command of sealing infants with the initial seal in force , binds . but to seal infants with the initial seal in force is not of the general nature of sacraments ( for then it should belong to the after seal as well as the initiating ) but after his own dictates of the special nature of the initial seal , and so mr. m. principle serves not for his purpose . thirdly , i argued thus , examen . part . . sect . . if we may frame an addition to gods worship from analogy or resemblance conceived by us between two ordinances , whereof one is quite taken away , without any institution gathered by precept or apostolical example , then a certain rule may be set down from gods word how far a man may go in his conceived parity of reason equity or analogy , and where he must stay ; for to use the words of the author , whose book is intituled grall● , if christians must measure their worship according to the institution and ceremonies of the jews , it is needfull that either they imitate them in all things , or else that some o edipus resolve this riddle hitherto not resolved , to wit , what is moral and imitable in those ceremonies , and what not . but out of gods word no rule can be framed to resolve us how far we must or may not go in this conceived parity of reason , equity , or analogy , ergo. the major is evinced from the perfection of gods word , and the providence of god to have the consciences of his people rightly guided . the minor is proved by provoking those analogists that determine from the commands about the mosaical rites and usages what must be done or may not be done about the meer positive worship and church-order of the new testament , to set down this rule out of gods word . this argument is confirmed by experience in the controversie between presbyterians and independents , jarring about the extent of infant-baptism , the elders in new england , mr. hooker , ( besides mr. ●irmin ) mr. bartlet , &c. restraining it to the infants of members joined in a church gathered after the congregational way as it is called . mr. cawdrey , mr. blake , mr. rutherfurd and others extend it farther , master b. plain scripture proof , &c. chap. . part . pag. . to all whosoever they be , if they be at a believers dispose . and both sides pretend analogy , which being uncertain , mr. ball after much debate about this difference , as distrusting analogy , determines thus in his reply to the answer of the new england elders to the . posit . posit . . and pag. . but in whatsoever circumcision and baptism do agree or differ ( which is as much as to say , whatsoever their analogy or resemblance be ) we must look to the institution ( therefore the institution of each sacrament must be our rule in the use of them , not analogy , and analogy is not sufficient to guide us without institution , and to shew that analogy serves not turn of it self to determine who are to be baptised , he adds ) and neither stretch it wider , nor draw it narrower than the lord hath made it , for he is the institutor of the sacraments according to his own good pleasure , and it is our part to learn of him , both to whom , how , and for what end the sacraments are to be administred , how they agree , and wherein they differ , in all which we must assirm nothing but what god hath taught us , and as he hath taught us . which how they cut the sinews of the argument from circumcision to baptism , without wrong to master ball , is shewed in my apology , sect. . pag. . mr. m. in his desence , pag. . mr. blake pag. , . of his answer to my letter , seem to deny , that paedobaptists do frame an addition to gods worship from such analogy , the contrary whereof is manifest from the passages cited before . but mr. blake over and above , pag. . sets down three cautions , which being observed , then this kind of arguing from analogy and proportion is without any such pretended danger . the insufficieny of which cautions being shewed in my postscript to the apology , sect pag. . i conceive it unnecessary to repeat my words , which the reader may here find , and the vindication of them from what mr. blake opposeth in his vindiciae foederis , chap . follows in the nex : section . . i argued , that if this way of making rules binding men consciences in meer positive worship from analogy of the ceremonies or rites of the old testament , without institution in the new , be valid , then our christian liberty from the ceremonial law is made void . for by this way of determining things as of gods appointment , by our conceived analogy , al or a great part of the ceremonial law may be put on our necks under pretence of analogy , and so the fruit of christs purchase of christian liberty lost , and we in vain exhorted to stand fast in the liberty , wherewith christ hath made us free . for as chillingworth once told knot the jesuit , if the pope be made sole judge of centroversies , & infallible expositor of scripture , it will be in effect all one , as if he were allowed to make a new scripture and articles of faith ; and tyranny may be introduced as well by arbitrary expounding , as well as by arbitrary making of laws : so in this case the bondage of moses his law may be put on our necks , not onely by those that say , it binds in the letter , but also by those that say , gods commands about the sacraments of the jews bind us in the analogy and proportion . . this argument hath strength from the sad experience the church hath formerly and of late had in yielding to these reasonings from analogy , in the many canons of popes and prelates , heavily loading gods church with rites and decrees about them , imposed from analogy of the ceremonial laws of moses . the constitutions of popes , and canons of prelates , and the books of the maintainers of them expounding and defending their rituals , and liturgies , are full of them , to wit , rites about priests , their orders , garments , dues , festivals , sacraments , votaries , religious houses , and such like , drawn from mosaical laws . it is a common complaint of protestants and antiprelatists , that in imitation of the jews , under pretence of analogy , a new named iudaism hath been brought into the christian church , and the reforming of them like hercules his labour in clensing augias his stable some i have named in my examen , part . . s. . more i might . in the augustan confession among the articles of abuses , in the chapter of the ecclesiastick power , it s the general complaint , that popish writers made a worship in the new testament , like the levitical . i may use mr. bs words in his appendix to plain scripture-proof , &c. pag. . and indeed if all that is not contrary to scripture customs , and that mans vain wit can find reasonable from scripture , must be admitted , and that upon equal authority with scripture , if they do but take it for a tradition apostolical , then . it will set mans wit a work to make god a worship , or judge of the currantness of it , according to his reason ; and one man will think it reasonable and another not . . and what a multitude of ceremonies will this admit into the church , to the burthening of mens consciences , and the polluting of gods worship ? is not this the door that the body of popish trash came in at ? and the argument that hardneth them in it , and hindereth their reformation to this day ? and if you open this gap , what a multitude of fopperies will rush in ? certainly by this means the gospel hath been shadow'd and repressed ; no stint either hath been or could be put to the inundation of such impositions , as long as liberty hath been given under pretence of analogy with jewish rites to add to the worship and discipline of the new testament : but it hath happened according to austins complaint , epist. . to ianuarius , that the state of the jewish church under divine precepts hath been more tolerable , than the christian burdened with humane presumptions . ames bell. enerv . tom . . lib. . cap. . th . . romanenses in suis ceremoniis partim imitati sunt gentes , partim iudaeos . th . . ceremoniae hujusmodi tollunt discrimen illud quod deus voluit esse inter iudaeos & christianos , quia paedagogiam iudaicae similem habent . . if such arguments from analogy of jewish rites abrogated may be valid to impose on mens consciences things about the worship of god , then popes and prelates are not only unblamable and justifiable in so doing , but also protestants and non-conformists will be unjustifiable in no yielding to them , but opposing them . mr. church divine warrant of infant-bapt . pag. . in answer to these three latter reasons , speaks thus . arguing from the jewish types for the substance of those shadowes , tends neither to an introducement of judaism , nor yet to a justification of the quisquilian toyes of the papists : for it is neither arguing for the ceremonies of the jewish church , nor for the fooleries of the popish synagogue , but for privileges which the faithful may expect by christ , of which those ceremoni's were prenunciative , and are ceased , not because they were evil , but because we have the substance and truth of them , which is much better , non quia damnata , sed quia in melius mutata , august . answ. the objection was , arguing from circumcision for baptism of infants , is the way to introduce judaism , and to subject the church again to the whole burthen of jewish ceremonies : mr. churches answer is , arguing from the iewish types for the substance of those shadowes , &c. which answer is either meerly impertinent , or else he conceives arguing from circumcision for baptism of infants to be arguing from the jewish type for the substance of the shadow . which if he stand to , then he must make circumcision the type , and baptism of infants the substance of circumcision , which sure is not according to scripture , which makes christ the body , of which the ceremonies , and among them circumcision , was a shadow , col. . . nor doth mr. church prove any thing that he saith , but vainly dictate , when he makes arguing for infant baptism from circumcision to be arguing for privileges which the faithful may expect by christ , and makes circumcision a ceremony prenunciative of infant baptism ; against which , and the whole way of arguing from the use of jewish rites to christian from analogy without other institution , i further reason . . protestant divines do frequently deny the jewish sacraments to be types or figures of ours , ames . bellarm. ener . tom . . lib. . cap. . th . . sacramenta externa sunt figurae : figuras figurarum non instituit deus , that they figured or represented christ and his grace , not other sacraments ▪ cap. . th . . absque ulla ratione asseritur circumcisionem fuisse figuram baptismi : sacramentum non est signum visibilis sacramenti , sed invisibilis gratiae . therefore no right arguing by analogy from a jewish rite to a christian , which must suppose one to be a sign of the other , which is denyed by them . mr. church his speech is vain , that the apostle argues from the sacrifices in the iewish church , rom. . . heb. . . the offering of our selves , and the sacrificing of praises , which he calls the calves of the lips , &c. for . the apostle doth not argue at all , but only allusively calls the presenting of our bodies , and giving thanks , a sacrifice , and the calves of our lips , by reason of some resemblance : which if it be arguing in the use of every metaphor there is arguing . . were it arguing , yet it is not to the purpose , sith it is not any arguing from the use of one rite to another by analogy , but from a rite to a moral duty , to wit , devotion and thanksgiving . and when he adds , and from sealing the promise by the initial sacrament to infants of gods people aforetime , may the sealing of the promise by the initial sacrament to infants of christians in this dispensation be rightly argued ; sealing the promise , being the substance of circumcision and benefit intended by it : and such arguing hath no colour of setting up iudaism , for arguing for the thing signified tends not to the introducement of antiquated ceremonies , he doth but write at random . for if the reason of his assertion be pettinent , then he must hold , that sealing the promise by the initial sacrament to infants of christians in this dispensation is the substance of circumcision and benefit intended by it . but it is either unintelligible to me in what sense the sealing of the promise by baptism to infants of christians can be the substance of circumcision , and the benefit intended by it , or else it is very absurd . for then it will plainly follow , . that till infantbaptism of christians , circumcision was without its substance , and the benefit intended by it . . he makes infant baptism the thing signified by circumcision , and the substance of circumcision , and so one ceremony signifies , and is the substance of another . but however we judge of his unintelligible or absurd arguing , it appears not by his answer but that the way of arguing by analogy from circumcision to baptism , that is from the regulating our practice in a rite of the new testament by a rite of the old , as obliging our consciences , may and doth introduce judaism , and other evils , as was objected . mr. blake answer to my letter , pag. . seems to put by this arguing of mine , by advising me to read over bellermine , and tell him then whether his arguments to lay the sacraments of the iews as low as types , and to extol the sacraments of christians as their antitypes , be not the self same that i and my party make use of to make so large a difference between circumcision and baptism . protestants deny them indeed to be types , because they assirm they are in substance the same , our doctrine keeps us at a distance from bellarmine , when you are in this reconciled to him , making the same differences as he doth between circumcision and baptism . answ. had m. blake directed me to the place in bellarmine , he would have me seriously read over , i should have done it . but now not well knowing what place in bellarmine he would have me read , and the reading him all over , and that seriously , being a very tedious task , i do not gratifie m. blake in his request : but to what he saith , i reply , i put sundry differences between circumcision and baptism in my examen , part . sect . . which mr. m. his defence doth not shew to be false . if they , or any other i make , be the same with bellarmines , and yet true , mr. blake doth causelesly except against me for agreeing with bellarmine ; sure it is no matter of blame to agree with the devil himself in the truth , it is no evill to believe there is one god , because the devils do so , james . . but how this should reconcile me to bellarmine in that which i except against him , that he makes the jews sacraments types of ours , is to me unintelligible . . dr. ames his words shew , that therefore he denied that circumcision was the figure or type of baptism , because a sacrament is not a sign of a visible sacrament , but of invisible grace , and that god hath not appointed figures of figures , or types of types , but types of some body or substance . the reason m. blake gives why they are not types , because they are in substance the same , i know not what protestants do give , whoever they be that do say so , in my apprehension , either they speak non-sense , or false . sacraments being nothing but actions used to some ends , according to appointment , what substance they should have , but the actions and the use , i understand not . now that the actions are not the same , it is manifest , cutting off a little skin , killing , roasting ▪ eating a lamb , being not the same with washing the body with water , and breaking and eating bread , and drinking wine ; and for their end and use it is certain , however they may agree in some things , yet those being generals , and accompanied with more differences in their end and use both general and particular , it may be with greater reason denied , that they are the same in substance , than averred that they are : and arguments drawn from the one to the other concerning their use , are from things unlike , as much as like , yea denied by the users to be types , figures or signs , the one of the other , and therefore cannot infer a parity in the thing questioned , without institution . . the ceremonies of the jews are now not only mortal , but dead , buried , and deadly , according to the received doctrine ; yea , some condemn not only the use of them formally , but also materally ; rutherford divine right of church-government , introd . sect . . pag. . saith , it is a false ground of the prelates , that circumcision , a passeover lamb , and all the jewish ceremonies , though with another endand intention than to shadow forth christ to come in the flesh , are indifferent . riv. on exod , . walaeus are cited by mr. cawdrey , sab. red. part . . c. . pag. . to the same purpose ; therefore not to be revived , no not in effigie by following any rule about them , as by analogie , or proportion between them and ours , without like institution binding us . . arguments from analogie in positive rites , without institution in the new testament , except god declare either by general rule , or particular example he allowes such arguments , are but humane inventions , as not being from the spirit of god , ( for that speaks only in the word about doctrines , but from mans reason : but such are the arguments drawn from a positive rite of the old testament now abrogated , to regulate our practice in the sacraments of the new , as obliging our consciences . therefore they are against the second commandment in the decalogue , our saviours words mat. . . in vaiu do they worship me , teaching for doctrines mens precepts ; it is tyranny and usurpation in them that impose them , and violation of their liberty , forbidden by the apostle , col. . . in them that submit to them . davenant exhort . to brotherly commuunion , ch . . tells us , that luther wisely admonisheth us , that in matters surmounting the capacity of humane reason , we beware of etymologies , analogies , consequences and examples . . arguments from conceived analogy , are but arguments from that which is like , not the same : but such are but weak things . proportions are weak probations , said m. rutherford , due right of presbyt . ch . . sect . . pag. . chamier panstr . cath. tom . . lib. . c. . s. . deinde sunt hujus generis conclusiones magis verisimiles quam necessariae nisi nitantur diser to dei verbo . oxford convocat . reasons against the covenant , pag. . the arguments à minore and à majore are subject to many fallacies , and inless there be a parity of reason in every requisite respect between he things compared , will not hold good : they do illustrate rather than prove ; and therefore they that assert that poedobaptism si fully determined in the old testament , where they have nothing but analogy from circumcision , and the jewish church state , what ever their confidence be , do but shew their weakness . i shall now examine what master blake saith in answer to my arguments , and then what mr. b. brings for his speech above recited . sect . iii. mr. blakes plea for arguments from analogy in meer positive rites of the old testament , and mr. bs. speech about infantadmission as determined in it , are refelled . master blake vindic. foederis ch . . sect . . speaking of me saith . and to this end he sets himself , first to dispute down all arguments à pari , all whatsoever that are grounded on parity of reason , or analogy and proportion . this he speaks to in his examen pag. . and i may here fitly refer the reader to that which i have written chap. . sect . . of my answer to m. t. only in a few words viudicate it from his exceptions against it in his apology , page . and page . he saith , the reader will hereafter find me reasoning with my full strength against the force of all arguments à pari . answ. it is not true , that i set my self to dispute down all arguments à pari , all whatsoever that are grounded on parity of reason , or analogy and proportion . for in the place cited examen pag. , . i do expresly level my arguing against arguments from analogy onely in positive instituted worship consisting in outward rites , such as circumcision , baptism , and the lords supper are , which have nothing moral or natural in them , but are in whole and part cetemonial . . i do dispute against all such arguments , not as brought to illustrate or confirm a thing otherwise proved from institution , but when they are brought to infer divine institutions and commands obligatory of mens consciences . i had said exam. part . . s. . pag. . to me it is a dangerous principle upon which they go that so argue , to wit , that in meer positive things ( such as circumcision and baptism are ) we may frame an addition to gods worship from analogy or resemblance conceived by us between two ordinances , whereof one is quite taken away , without institution gathered by precept or apostolical example . mr. blake answer to my letter pag. asks who those be ? i told him that he did birth-privilege pag. . ( i should have said ) and i mean those words , upon this ground ( the covenant ) infants under the law were circumcised , and upon the same ground infants are now to be baptized : by the grounds of both circumcision and baptism we inforce the baptism of infants : what is objected against one concludes against both : circumcision and baptism are therefore by the apostle promiscuously taken ; there being the same principal and main end of both . but he saith now vindic. foederis pag. . in my whole discourse i did studiously avoid arguments drawn barely from analogy , so that we may see how willing mr. t. is to quarrel , and how loath to speak truth . answ. there was nothing but truth and fair arguing in my apology pag. . for though mr. b. denies his argument to be barely from the analogy between circumcision and baptism , by which he hid inforce the baptism of infants , yet his arguing from the grounds of both , without institution gathered by precept , or apostolical example , is barely from analogy . analogy or proportion i neither did imagine nor conceive mr. b. made in the likeness , resemblance , or evenness in the ritual part of circumcision and baptism , that is the cutting off the skin , or the washing the body , as if he did argue , infants had a skin cut off , therefore infants are to be washed with water : but the analogy i conceive made by him between them , is in the supposed parity of reason , taken from ( as he calls them ) the grounds of both , secluding institution , as my words shew , examen pag. . and postscript pag. . now this mr. b. doth in the words cited , arguing from the covenant , the same principal and main end of both , and thence dictating what is objected against one concludes against both , and asserting ( though falsely ) that circumcision and baptism are therefore by the apostle promiscuously taken , and mentions not the distinct institution of infant-baptism from infantcircumcision , but as if he counted them the same , yea as if he meant them all one , imposeth on the apostle as if he took baptism and circumcision promiscuously : wherein he argues from bare analogy ( if not identity ) between them without institution . and therefore i do still charge him with arguing according to that principle , which he saith , is as dangerous to him as to me . but he hath yet another shift . in case , saith he , i had by analogy with circumcision made proof of infants title to baptism , it would not have freed him from calumny , seeing it is no addition to worship , baptism is worship as circumcision was , this is but a demonstration of the latitude and extent of it . answ. there is no calumny in it . for he adds to gods worship who doth make something worship of god , which he hath not appointed , as non-conformists did argue in their negative argument against the bishops ceremonies from deut. . . and though the conformists did allow some addition to gods worship in indifferent ceremonies , yet they agreed that to make any such addition as necessary binding the conscience , or part of gods worship , specially when it is in things determined by institution , was unlawful . now god hath appointed expresly disciples or believers in christ to be baptized , mat. . . mark . . and no other , and this is his instituted worship ; he then who baptizeth infants who are not disciples or believers , and doth this as gods worship , doth add to the worship having no institution gathered by precept or apostolical example : nor doth he demonstrate , but devise a latitude and extent of the worship of his own head , or worships god after the precepts of men . as for the words , it is no addition to worship , baptism i● worship as circumcision was , they seems to intimate , if there be any reason in them , than infantbaptism is no addition to worship , because baptism is worship as circmcision was , which imports , that there could be no addition to worship in adding to baptism , because it is worship as circumcision was , whereas the reason is better to the contrary , that it being not commanded infant baptism is addition to worship , because baptism is worship as circumcision was . mr. blake goes on . it runs in mr. t. his head that we go about to find not a baptism-institution , but an infant-baptism-institution , and that barely by analogy from circumcision . this i confess were a wild undertaking . answ. t is true , i did think mr. m. in his sermon pag. . when he said , baptism was instituted long before ( that command mat. . . ) to be the seal of the covenant , had sought its institution from gen. : and in his defence i find not that which might take me off from that conceit . and it still runs in my head that mr. blake must either find not onely a baptism-institution , but also an infant-baptism-institution , or else we must yield infant-baptism a corruption of that ordinance , whether it be called will-worship , or profaning it , or what other sin that corruption be termed . as he that will acquit prayer to saints , or for the dead , from corruption , must find not onely an institution of prayer , but also of prayer to saints and for the dead ; he that will acquit infant-communion , bell-baptism , &c. from corruption , must find not onely an institution of the communion and baptism , but also of infant-communion and bell-baptism . i agree , that it were a wild undertaking to go about to find an institution of infant-baptism , especially gen. . because it is not to be found there , or in any other part of holy scripture , and yet i think paedobaptists do go about to find an institution of infant-baptism , and that barely by analogy from circumcision , as i shew before , and therefore by mr. blakes own censure their attempt is a wild undertaking . he addes . neither i nor mr. t. to help me , can find an infant-circumcision-institution . if he instances gen. . . he that is eight dayes old shall be circumcised among you , every man-child in your generations ; i say that is no institution of circumcision , but a subsequent directory for the particular day ( according to the paedagogy of those times ) when the person was to be circumcised . the institution we find not with restriction to infancy , but in that latitude as to comprize males of any age , v. . this is my covenant which ye shall keep between me and you , and thy s●●d after thee , every man-child among you shall be circumcised . mr. t. knows very well , that by man-child onely the s●x and not the growth is distinguished , omnis mas , as junius and tremellius , every male , as anisworth reads it ; if that after directory had not followed , they might have circumcised ( as we baptize ) infants upon any day at our best conveniences . this is plain in the text , and may be further cleared ; if the institution it self be with that limit of time to the eighth day , then it had been their sin ( according to mr. tombs , the sin of will-worship ) in case that time through negligence had slipt , to have circumcised them another day , as it was for a man unclean , or in a journey on the th day of the first moneth ( the time appointed for the passeover ) to observe it any other day , till god appointed the th day of the second moneth for such occasions , num. . , , . but that they had their liberty by vertue of the institution to circumcise any other day , when that was over , is clear in the text , and may be farther made plain , that abraham so understood it by his circumcising of ishmael at years , which had been without warrant , had there been an institution only for children of eight dayes ; when god was displeased at moses his neglect of the circumcision of his son , exod. . . yet he was pleased that he was after circumcised v. . so that as there was an institution in old-testament-times , for all males in covenant without difference of age ; so there is in new-testament times an institution of baptism for all in covenant without difference of age or sex . answ. mr. blake saith , neither he nor i to help him can find an infant-circumcision-institution , and yet he himself finds , gen. . . an institution in that latitude , as to comprize males of any age : if there be an institution to circumcise males of any age , then there is an institution to circumcise male infants , who are of some age . and therefore it seems to me a wild speech of mr. b. to deny the finding of an institution of infant-circumcision , when he himself sets down the institution of it within a few lines of those words . but he conceives it no institution of circumcision gen. . . to which i say , be it subsequent directory , or what ever else he will call it , mr. blake might easily perceive by my words , examen pag. , . and elsewhere , i take the word institution for any appointment by precept , command or example approved , either express , or gathered by good consequence ; if any of these wayes an institution of infant-baptism can be shewed out of the new testament without the analogy of circumcision , i should not make any doubt of it , and therefore it is but unnecessary wrangling which he useth about the word [ institution ] . let him shew any subsequent directory for infant-baptism , as is for infant-circumcision without the analogy of circumcision ▪ and i am satisfied . yet to shew the vanity of his speeches and arguings i shall a little scanne them , he denies an institution of infant-circumcision , gent. . . he saith , it is but asubsequent directory for the particular day . answ. ausonius popma de differ . verborum l. . institutines sunt praecepia , quibus docentur homines atque instituuntur . in this general acception a directory is an institution . but were it taken strictly for a command establishing that ●ite , surely v. . not onely the particular day was appointed , but the person also , to wit , the infant of eight dayes old among abrahams people , and all the verses , , , . together are termed sanctio circumcisionis , by pareus in his commentary . but we find not the institution with restriction to infancy , saith mr. blake . ans. true , nor did i ever say the institution was restrained to infancy , or that there was an institution only for children of eight dayes , nor do i deny that the precept gen. . . was more general than that it should be restrained to the eighth day : yet v. . the circumcising of infants was limited to the eighth day . mr. cawdrey sabb. rediv. part . . pag. . for some particular occasions of worship , god was pleased of old to determine some time exclusively , as the eighth day from the birth of a child for circumcision , and the eighth day for the sacrificing of the firstling males of cattel , neither sooner nor later . nor do there want those among protestant divines , who make it unlawful to do it before or after but will-worship , except in cases of necessity , as in the wilderness , &c. in which case the rule holds , god will have mercy and not sacrifice , and the thing might be done afterwards , as in the circumcision of those who were born in time of their travel in the wilderness . but to have altered the time of a mans own motion , without such necessity , had been will-worship , as it was charged on jeroboam kings . . that he sacrificed in the moneth he had devised of his own heart . what mr. blake saith , there is in the new-testament-times an institution of baptism for all in covenant , without difference of age or sex , is false , except by being in covenant he understand , not being in covenant by gods promise onely , or others faith , or undertaking for them , but by their own act of covenanting , that is engaging themselves in their own persons by their , own act to be christs disciples or believers in him , there being no institution in the new testament times of baptizing any other than disciples or believers in christ. mr. blake adds . i instanced in the apostles argument from analogy for ministers maintenance , cor. . . tim. . . mr. tombs answers , the apostle doth not by bare analogy conclude ministers maintenance , but from the lords ordinance ; he does conlude it then ( by his confession ) from analogy , though not barely from analogy . neither have any one of mr. t s antagonists concluded infant baptism barely from analogy of circumcision . there are other arguments which wait for his answer , so that this instance stands . answ. my confession was not , that the apostle argued from any such analogy as paedobaptists conclude infants-baptism from , to wit , the rule of circumcision , thus , circumcision was appointed to infants in covenant , therefore baptism is appointed to infants in covenant , they having the same main and principle end to seal the covenant of grace ( which is mr. blakes own arguing ) which is from a ceremonial rite of the old testament to a ceremonial rite of the new , without precept or example of christ or his apostles . for . the apostles argument cor. . . seems not to me to be from analogy , but a testimony explained . so mr. dicson in his com. arg. . a testimonto legis de pabulo bovi trituranti dando : quod ostendit dictum esse in gratiam omnium laborantium in aliorum usum , potissimum in ministerio . diodati , the end of gods law is not to shew how cattel should be fed , but to command equity to be used in just rewarding of those who labour for us . mr. blake himself vindic ▪ foederis pag. . thirdly he argues from the command of the law : . if it be from any analogy , it is in things that have a parity of equity , and so it is in moral things , which are perpetual , not in meer positive rites . . it is an analogy which the apostle delivered to us , not analogy made by men not guided by an infallible spirit , as is the inference of paedobaptism from circumcision , and therefore is not of force to oblige mens consciences ▪ i have shewed before that the paedobaptists main argument is barely from such analogy , and for other arguments waiting for mine answer , either they are answered before sufficiently , o● god assisting , will have answer in this review . mr. blakes arguments vindic . foede . ch . . sect . . require no longer answer . the first is the same with mr. bs. second . and the major is to be denied , if by [ unless order be given to the contrary ] be meant of order given to the contrary in formal positive terms , such as this , thou shalt nor baptize infants . if it be meant of order given to the contrary , either in express formal prohibitive terms , or equipollent , the minor is to be denied . in the second the major is to be denyed , and in like manner the third , distinguishing the term [ holy ] in the fourth both the major and the minor , and so likewise the fifth , explaining the term [ church privileges ▪ ] in the sixth the major is to be denyed if understood of the invisible kingdom of god only , if of the visible , the minor is to be denyed : in the other two additionals , the major if universal is to be denyed , and the minor is true of infants of unbelievers as well as believers . and for the last argument the matter is as easily answered as the form . for the major , those that are to be saved are to be added to the church by baptism , act ▪ . . is to be limited by the text v. . thus [ when they willingly receive the word ] if no larger answer be given mr. b. to these arguments , yet this will be enough to shew they are without much difficulty answerable . mr. bs. proofs likewise , god assisting , shall have fuller answer than they deserve , though were it not for his own and others conceits of his writings for infant-baptism , i should think it lost time to bestow it in an exact examination of his inconsiderable dictates . as for the present instance of m. b. of the apostles arguing from analogy , he may see it now fallen , and so likewise the next , of which he speaks thus . i instanced in the apostles arguing cor. . , . he makes it good that partaking together of the sacrament of the lords supper , we are made one ecclesiastical body , by way of analogy with the like in the sacrifices of the jews , yea in the sacrifices of the gentiles ; to which mr. t. saies , this argument is to prove , that they which profess christ may not partake of the things of idols . from this general truth , that they which join in the service of any god , they hold communion with that god , and are one with those that worship that god ; this the apostle proves by instances in the christian and jewish services . so that this argument is from a genoral truth proved by induction of instances . mr. t. mistakes , the apostle takes no such general truth for granted , but affirms that we are one body at the lords table , which he first proves by analogy in the instances mentioned , and then concludes thence against communion with idols ; that which the apostle disputes he l●ies down , but we have not these words in the text . answ. there is no mistake in my analysis of the apostles words . he had v. . warned them of idolatry , to wit in going with the infidels to their idol feasts , and to make them more heedful of what he said he prefaceth , v. . and then argues : not thus , they that partake of the lords supper are made one ecclesiastical body by way of analogy with the like in the sacrifices of the jews , yea in the sacrifices of the gentiles ; for then the conclusion to be proved should be , we are one body ecclesiastical at the lords table , and the sacrifices of the gentiles should be the medium to prove it , which had been ursi for such a proof , nor in any passage of the apostle is used to that end . for how inept an argument had this been , the gentiles in their sacrifices had communion with the idol , therefore they that partake of the lords supper are made one body ecclesiastical ? nor would the proof be much otherwise if it were thus ( as mr. blake makes it ) we are one body ecclesiastical who partake of the lords supper , therefore in gentile sacrifices we communicate with idols . and me thinks there is a circle in this proof , by the gentiles sacrifices to prove we are one body ecclesiastical in the lords supper , and thence to prove we communicate with idols in gentile sacrifices . but the scope of the apostle appears by the words , v. . and v. , , . evidently to be the disswading them from the idol-feasts on their sacrifices , because they had therein fellowship with the idol , did partake of its cup and table , and so with devils v. , . which had been an argument in concludent , were it not thus made , to have fellowship with the idol is evil to be avoided by christians , as being communion with devils . but to partake of the thing offered to idols is to have fellowship with the idol . ergo , the minor , which alone is proved , rests on this general maxim , they have fellowship with a true or supposed deity , who partake of his service , and this the apostle proves to be true by the instances of the christians and the israelites , v. , , . i know sundry protestant expositors make the argument to be thus , ye may not partake of the idol banquets , because ye are partakers of the lords supper . but i conceive this not right : for v. , . the apostles medium is not from the matter of fact what they did , or duty what they were to do , but from the tendence of their action in common construction and interpretation of the end and use of such actions , which did shew they had communion in the body of christ. which is clearly proved from v. . where the apostle allegeth the israelites partaking of their altar to the same purpose to which he had used the former , v. , . now the christians neither did nor were to partake then of the jewish altar , and it is not a reason from their fact or duty ▪ but onely from that wherein christians breaking bread , jews and gentiles eating of their sacrifices did agree , that these actions testified their fellowship with that lord for whom these services were performed . and therefore by piscator , dicson , and others , the argument is thus framed , israelites by eating of the sacrifices testified they were professors and partakers of the jewish religion , therefore they that eat of idol sacrifices , they testify that they communicate with idolaters in their idolatry : yea mr. blake himself in his answer to my letter pag. . doth plainly acknowledge the apostles argument to be from a general maxim common to all religious service , when he saith , yea he further makes it good ( that which he concluded before ) in the words following , even from the heathen , it is of the nature of religious worship , whether true or false , to make those of one body ( as i may say ) religious that partake of them . whence it is apparent that it is not an argument to prove any duty in a christian rite of the new testament from the ceremonial law , sith it is by his own confession even from the gentiles sactifices , which sure by analogy or resemblance being altogether forbidden , cannot make us a rule in christian meer positive worship , and therefore there is no such argument in the apostles speech from analogy , as i opp●gn . mr. blake yet adds . i instanced in christs defence of his disciples from the charge of the pharisees , mat. . , . by analogy and proportion of the like in david . mr. t. answers , that is only an instance to prove that sacrifice must give place to mercy , a ceremonial to a moral duty , not an argument from meer analogy or resemblance of things different . he proves that truth then by analogy , if not by meer analogy , and he tells us of no other thing that is joined to help it out , and make it an argument compleat . to these , abundance more might be added . answ. it is enough to shew this instance impertinent , in that it is not from such analogy as is used to prove infant-baptism by infant-circumcision ; thus it was in a rite in the old testament upon this ground , ergo , it must be so in a rite of the new testament , because the same pretended ground remains other than gods command or institution : which i called meer analogy in meer positives without a distinct command about each rite . as for my exposition it was right , that christ allegeth davids fact as an instance , that ceremonials give place to morals , and sacrifice to mercy , as appears by v. . and hence in giving rules about exposition of the decalogue usually from this passage a rule is drawn , that ceremonials give place to morals , sacrifice to mercy . sure i am , neither here , nor any where else in scripture is there found such an argument as this , thus it was in a ceremony of moses law , therfore thus is must be in a rite or ceremony of the new testament . mr. blake proceeds thus . vpon mr. t. his desire of rules how farre we may go in this parity of reason , and himself allowing this way of reasoning in morals , which in many cases might be singularly usefull and very helpful in this particular ; he is yet silent , we may then keep our way of reasoning without rules , as well as he his ; i yet gave in mine , which he epitomizes , and gives in to the reader by the halves . to whom in the first place i might apply that of the poet , carpere vel noli nostra , vel ede tua . answ. there was no reason i should set down rules about reasoning from analogy in morals , how usefull soever they might be . for . though i said in my examen pag. . for that which is natural or moral in worship an institution or command in the old testament is allowed as obligatory to christians , yet i did not say , that in morals a man may reason as paedobaptists reason in ceremonials , this was a duty or sin in the old testament , therefore another thing is a duty or sin in the new testament ( which was not in the old also ) by imagined parity of reason , as my words postscript sect . . import . neither is it necessary to set down any other rules than what either logicians set down in the topicks about arguments à comparatis , or divines give in the expounding the decalogue . . if any more were requisite , yet it would have been to draw me into a dispute on the by , to fall on that point in that place . . if it had been fit for me to do it , yet at that time i had no leisure , the postscript being written when my apology was almost printed , as i say in the postscript sect . . which is also a reason why i did not set down all his words about his rules in my postscript sect . . which he calls epitomizing of them , and giving in to the reader by halves , when the rules were as fully delivered by me as himself , and only the applications and amplifications omitted , nor doth he shew wherein i have omitted any thing of the strength of them . but whereas mr. blake saith , he may keep up his way of reasoning without rules , as well as i mine , he doth untruly suggest that i keep up any way of reasoning without rules ; my way of reasoning is such as the apostle used cor. . . and best divines court certain , to take that onely as of gods appointment in meer positive ceremonies of the new testament , which is gathered by christ or the apostles , precept or example , in the new testament . pareus comment ▪ in mat. . . quicquid igitur dominus jesus hic instituit atque praecepit necessariò est observandum , nec omittendum , quicquid non instituit nec praecepit non est quasi necessarium huic sacramento ob●rudendum sed rejiciendum . hinc videam illi qui fractionem panis à domino institutam omittunt vel damnans . which doubtless is as true concerning baptism , mat. . . jus divinum eccl. regiminis by london ministers , part ▪ . ch . . pag. . the power of church government is not natural but positive . therefore all such power claimed or exercised without such positive grant is meerly fine ti●ulo , & ipso facto null and void . and for his way of reasoning without rules , to wit , to argue thus , it was so in a meer positive ceremony of the old testament now abolished upon this conceived reason , ergo , it must be in like sort in another ceremony of the new testament , which is conceived to have in part the same use , if he kept it up , it will condemn the reformation of many popish and prelatical ceremonies , and justifie the retaining of them . the thing i required in my examen pag. . was this , i desire any learned man to set me down a rule from gods word , how far i may go in my conceived parity of reason , equity or analogy ( to wit , in meer positive things to frame an addition to gods worship from analogy or resemblance conceived by us between two ordinances , whereof one is taken away , without any institution gathered by precept or apostolical example ) and where i must stay ; when it will be superstition and wil-worship , when not , when my conscience may be satisfied , when not . mr. blake , vindic. foed . pag. . saies of me . take them as he layes them down apolog. pag. . . when parity of reason or analogy doth not institute any piece of worship , or the least part of the service of god , but onely help to a right understanding of the nature , use and extent of that which is instituted . . when in our reasoning from analogy for the right understanding of any institution or ordinance , we do not rest solely on the analogy with other commands , but have our further reason for confirmation . . when the analogy holds full proportion in that for which it is brought , so that nothing can fairly be brought against the one , but may be also concluded against the other . against these rules he takes three exceptions , . that never a one of these rules is brought out of gods word , for there is neither declaration of such rule , nor example to prove it . the first rule i thus illustrated , ainsw . pag. . you find nothing in scripture for excommunication of women , yet we find in the old testament miriam shut out of the camp , num. . . and in all penalties for transgression , in scriptures we find no regard had of distinction of sex , and by consequence it is not to be denied , that women offending are within this censure . mr. t. magisterially answers , the proving of excommunicating of women from miriams shutting out of the camp , num. . . is not a scripture collection , but a meer device of men . if there be no such thing as excommunication in the new testament ( as mr. t. saies pag. . and unsaies pag. . ) then i confess what he saies , but if there be such an institution ( which here is not a time to examine , as i am sure there is of baptism ) then it may be evinced from that place that it reacheth to both sexes . mr. t. would have us to proceed by alterable rules of prudence . this prudence as may be inferred , is to reach to both sexes . answ. my answer notwithstanding this reply stands good . for . he brings not any declaration or example where the holy ghost argues thus , excommunication extends to women , because miriam was shut out of the camp , num. . . it is true , the anti-erastians , as rutherfurd divine right of church-government , c. . q. . attempt to prove that separating from the congregregation for leprosie typified christian excommunication , and thence mr. blake would prove excommunication of women . but neither is any other than an humane device , it cannot be proved , that onely scandalous sin answers to leprosie ; original sin or sins of thoughts may as well be conceived to be signified by it , and separating from the congregation may as well typifie exclusion from heaven , as removal from the visible church , yea more agreeable to the end , sith putting out of the camp was not for amendment as excommunication was . that excommunication which the scripture in the new testament mentions as belonging to christians , i grant is to be of women as well as men , but we need not run to the old testament to prove it , cor. . , , , , . thess. . . . tim . . prove it . if that rev. . , belong to excommunication , a woman is in express terms made liable to it . i agree with mr. blake , in all penalties for transgression in scripture we find no regard had of distinction of sexe , and by consequence it is not to be denied , that women offending are within this censure : so that by his own grant we need not run to analogy from ejecting the l●per , to prove excommunicating of women ▪ it is not true , that 〈…〉 d unsay : my words are plain , distinguishing ju●●dical excommunication of superious from social , granting this latter , though demurring about the former . i have shewed my meaning plainly in the addition of my apology sect . . . in my letter to mr. robert baillee of scotland ; what mr. blake holds in this point i cannot well tell . some conference i had with him in london made me doubtful whether he were not somewhat of erastus his judgement in this point ; here he doth not say there is an institution of excommunication as he is sure there is of baptism . but i deny if there be an institution of excommunition that it may be evinced from num. . . that it reacheth both sexes , much less that any precept may be thence gathered as obliging christians in the use of excommunication : if there were a rule thence obliging , it would follow that excommunication is to be but seven dayes , and then the excommunicate to be received in again . what i said of ordering things by alterable rules of prudence is expressely meant of things concerning which we have not precise direction from gods word , which i suppose mr. blake will not deny to be true , though he is pleased to mention it , as if it were mine and not his tenent . he saith further . i brought an instance not for a proof of it self , but illustration of another proof from divines arguing against non-residence from ezek. . . this ( he saies ) is good after other arguments , but of it self is not convincing . such arguments then are of validity when aright placed and marshalled orderly , i hope this of mine then is of force , it is not in the van but brings up the rear . answ. what i acknowledged , that the argument was good after other arguments , i mean to illustrate , not to prove , nor would i deny an argument from circumcision of infants good to illustrate baptism of infants , if it were before proved from precept or apostolical example , manifested in express assertion , or deduced by good consequences . but the most of paedobaptists make the argument from circumcision their achilles , and by their texts , and confession of a committee of them , it was the main , if not the onely argument in the assembly . mr. bs arguments he puts in the van are no better , as is briefly shewed , postscript , sect . . &c. yet for the text ezek. . . upon better consideration it seems not fit to illustrate a proof against nonresidence , sith the sin there charged was not leaving the temple themselves , but admitting at the will of the prince other than of the tribe of levi to be in gods sanctuary , num. . . yea even the uncircumcised , and thereby gods holy things were profaned , and idolatry brought in . and therefore the observation of the new annot. of the second edition is , that unlawful ministers , false in doctrine , soul in life , are not to be admitted but ejected . but for mr. blakes rule , there is no one text brought out of gods word to prove it , that we may argue from analogy , so as to infer a duty from an use in meer positive worship of the old testament now abolished in the use of a rite of the new , without any other precept in the new testament , when we do not institute thence any piece of worship , or the least part of the service of god , but onely make it a help to a right understanding of the nature , use and extent of that which is instituted . yea this rule seems to me to speak inconsistencies , for he supposeth that analogy may not institute any piece of worship , or the least part of the service of god , yet allows direction from analogy in the nature , extent and use of that which is instituted ; whereas the nature , use and extent being the chief part , or the very service it self , and are determined in the institution mat. . . if we may take direction from our conceived analogy in them , we may not onely institute a piece of worship , or the least part of the service of god ( which mr. blake denies ) but also the main part , yea the very service itself , which hath no greater parts than the nature , use and extent . so that mr. blakes first rule , denying the use of analogy in the least part of gods service , yet allowing it in the nature , use and extent of that which is instituted , is but a rule destroying in one part , what is built up in the other . he adds further . the second and third rules he saies are not set down from any declaration or example in the scripture . i desire him at his leisure to look again , and he may see the second rule confirmed from the apostles way of thus arguing , cor. . and the lord christs mat. . the third is confirmed by that reasoning of christ with the pharisees before mentioned , compared with our reasoning with antipaedobaptists . answ. i have looked again , and i say still these are impertinently alleged by mr. b. as being not one of them from such analogy as mr. b. maintaines and i deny , as i have before shewed , and for antipaedobaptists reasonings , they are the fairest that can be , keeping close to the confessed institution of christ , and practice of the apostles , and there is this objection which is fairly brought against infant-baptism , that there is no command or example for it in scripture , which cannot be brought against infant circumcision , and for the hypotheses of paedobaptists from the covenant , seal , succession to circumcision , &c. there is not one of them true , as god willing shall be shewed in the process of this review . mr. blake goes on , his second exception is , these are very uncertain . for no reason is given , why they may not make a new worship , who may by their analogy extend it beyond the institution in the new testament . this very well answers mr. t. his ingenuity , to which i may reply by way of retortion , why may not mr. t. as well deny an institution and destroy it , as well as curtail that which is instituted ? we shall be able to make it good , that he curtails christs institution in the new testament , cuting off many churchmembers in covenant ; he shall never be able to prove that we extend it by analogy or otherwise beyond the institution . answ. that exception of mine did very well agree with ingenuity , and it might have stood better with mr. bs. ingenuity , to have taken the exception as sufficient to invalidate his rule , than to have made this taunting reply . the answer had no fault , but that it was a little more modest than might have stood with truth . for . i might have said truly , not onely that no reason is given , but also that no reason can be given , why they may not make a new worship , who may by their analogy extend it beyond the institution in the new testament . for their analogy being a meer humane invention , if they have authority to enlarge the ordinance , they have authority to make a new worship ; the papists if they have authority to appoint baptizing of bells , they have authority to appoint the sign of the cross , for the same end for which baptism was ; the same authority which serves for the one , serves for the other . yea , if the analogy direct in the nature , use and extent of an instituted worship , what doth it else but make a new worship ? and that it may be seen how dangerous it is to follow mr. blakes rule , i would have it considered how we shall avoid justifying the popish mass , if we stick to it . he allows analogy in the understanding of the nature or use of an instituted worship , the lords supper is an instituted worship , and it is conceived it succeeds the passeover , as baptism circumcision ; if then by the analogy of circumcision we may gather the use of baptism , we may in like manner from the analogy of the passeover , gather the use of the lords supper . it is certain from he apostles words , cor. . . for christ our passeover is sacrificed for us , that the passeover was a sacrifice and such a sacrifice as resembled christ , and therefore propitiatory ▪ and then by analogy the use of the lords supper is so too , which is the chief point whereby the popish mass is established . the very self same rule will prove the ministers of the gospel , who succeed the priests of the law , and by analogy from whom , according to mr. blake , the apostle reasoneth , cor. . , , will be proved sacrificing priests , if as mr. blake saith , analogy may direct us in the use of an instituted ordinance . . i say mr. blake doth by his analogy according to his first rule , allow the making a new worship ▪ for the worship is not the same , but a new worship , when though the same element be used , yet the nature , use and extent of is otherwise than the institution , as though the pharisees used water according to the tradition of the elders , mark . which is the element used in baptism , yet their washing their hands was another worship than christian baptism , because the nature , use and extent of it , was other than the institution of baptism : so likewise though water be retained in their so called infant-baptism , yet it being neither used in the manner appointed by christ , to wit , by dipping , but by sprinkling or powring , nor on the subject appointed by christ to be baptized , to wit , disciples or believers in him , but on infants , who are not such , nor to the end christ appointed , that is , to testifie by that act their owning christ for their lord , their dying to sin , and rising to newness of life , but onely to seal the covenant of grace , i say a new worship is made in their infant-watering , as there was of old a new worship made in infant-communion , and is at this day in the popish mass , and baptizing of bells . as for mr. blaks retortion , i do grant mr. t. may as well deny an institution , and destroy as well as curtail that which is instituted . but that by denying infants visible churchmembership in the christian church of the new testament , and their being in covenant , and right thereby to baptism , i curtail christs institution , i do then expect he will be able to make good , when he proves the snow black and the crow white . and whether i prove ▪ that by analogy or some other way baptism is extended beyond the institution in infant-baptism , i leave it to the reader to judge . mr. blake goes on thus . the second rule ( he saies ) overthrows all , for if we may not rest solely on the analogy , why at all ? how then is that collection from ezek. . . good , after other arguments against non-residence ? neither do i say , that it may not go alone , but it will hardly go alone , but other arguments will be found to second it , in which i also gave instances . answ. . the collection from ezek. . . is good to illustrate , not to rest on as a proof , yet with the correction of my speech as above . . i did not charge him that he said it may not go alone , nor is it to the purpose which he tells us that he said analogy will hardly go alone . but this i say , his second rule is that reasoning from analogy holds when we do not rest solely on the analogy with other commands , but have our further reason for confirmation , which doth plainly intimate that we may not rest solely on it . now i argue , if it be a good proof , we may rest solely on it ; for one good proof is enough for a man to rest upon , though more arguments make it clearer . if then we may not rest solely on analogy with other commands ( as mr. blakes words intimate ) then it is not a sufficient proof . to which in mr. blakes words there is no reply , nor hath he avoided my objection that his second rule overthrows what he contends for , the validity of his analogical arguments impugned by me . mr. blake of me . he adds , this is enough to shew that analogy hath no strength , that indeed it doth not onely illustrate , connot prove ▪ what is an argument by analogy , but an argument à simili ? i had thought there had been much difference between these two kinds of arguments à pari & à simili ; pari à similibus omninò differunt , saith scheibler in his topicks . i may send him to his dictionary to see whether one be not englished equal or even , and the other like or semblable . i may send him to the predicaments whether one be not in quantity , the other in quality , and demand of him whether there be magis & minus par & aequale , as there is magis & minus simile ? and to con ult with the topicks whether that be not one head from which they draw arguments which in their judgement are valid : hath mr. t. never read de paribus idem est judicium ? quod valet in re pari valet etiam in compari . i think he never read de similibus idem est judicium : quod valet in simili valet etiam in re assimilata . if mr. t. be agreed we will referre it to the common law , whether this way of reasoning will hold or no ; if it fail , we shall need no other levellers to take down that art , it will fall of it self , they have scarce any other way of arguing . but if these onely illustrate ( which i think no logician will say ) yet it is here sufficient , there was an institution of circumcision and there is of baptism ; neither of these needs proof being not in controversie between us and our adversaries . the right subject of baptism onely is enquired after ; the institution hath infants we say within the verge , and are not excluded from it ; for this we have our arguments which from the initiating sacrament of the iews we onely illustrate . answ. it seems mr. blake thought he had me here at a lift , and therefore after a message from him by words of mouth some years since , intimating he took my speech to be absurd , that an argument from analogy is but an argument à simili , he bestirs himself in this manner in this his book . but to stop him in his carreer . he tells me he had thought there had been much difference between these two kinds of arguments à pari & simili : which may be true , and yet my speech true also , what is an argument by analogy ( i did not say à pari ) but an argument à simili ? he tells me , paria à similibus omninò differunt ▪ saith scheibler in his topicks . answ. it is true , scheibler top. c. . q. . saith so , but withal he tells us , that titelman comprehends paria sub similibus , & hunuaeus , similium & parium aut nullum aut pertenue discrimen esse ait , idque proptereà , quia eadem exempla referantur ad similia & paria . yea even scheibler himself c. . saith , ad similia etiam pertinent parabolae & analogia ; analogia est similitudo composita trium vel quatuor terminorum . keckerm . syst . log . lib. . c. . sequitur locus qui est à similitudine composita , quae dicitur analogia seu proportio . burgersdicius instit. log . l. . c. . intelligitur hoc loco non simplex sed composita similitudo sive analogia . and in the same place hath this passage even of analogy . argumenta ex locis similium p●tita magis illustrant quàm probant , & ut ait molinaeus afferunt magis dissentiendi pudorem quàm assentiendi necessitatem . georg. dounam . comment . in rami dialecti . lib. . c. . comparatio similium 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dicitur , id est similitudo , dicitur etiam proportio graecè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ut similia proportio nalia graecè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & à mathemacis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , inquit fabius lib. . c. . quidam à simili separaverunt , nos eam subjectam huic generi putamus . nam ut unum ad decem , sic decem ad centum , simile certe est , & ut hostis sic malis civis . ac certe proportio nihil aliud est , quam duarum rationum similit udo . sic enim euclides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ratio autem seu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est duorum inter se terminorum collatio . exempli gratia , ut . ad . . sic . ad . . proportio sive similitudo est , quia eadem est ratio seu qualitas . ad . . quae . ad . . scilicet dupla . solent quidem hae voces à quibusdam ad quantitatum collectiones adstringi , verùm generalis sunt significationis . nam & similitudo omnis proportio est , & qualitas omnis ratio est . and for the dictionary . pares ▪ cum paribus facillime congregantur in cicero , is rendred by cooper , like most readily gather in company with like . par est , plaut . it is like or equal . par co●at jungatque pari . horat. jam sumus ergo pares , martial . these and innumerable instances besides shew that however in the predicaments par is applied to discrete quantity , and simile to quality , yet they are taken without such exactness in other authors , and that frequently parity is as much as likeness in quality and other conditions . and it is known that it is a rule in logick , that qualities are sometimes expressed by words of quantity , as when we say a great philosopher . and for the topicks locus à pari is not à pari numero , or simili qualitate onely properly so called , but also from any such argument which makes it probable that the like may be said of the one as of the other : locus à majori & minori is all one with locus à magis & minus probabili . i find in keckerm . syst . log . l. . c. . this canon . de paribus & similibus idem est judicium . i grant good use of arguments à paribus & à similibus in the common law , which they call from the same case : nor do i except against it as insufficient for judges and lawyers to determine by . yet as in the law when there is a statute law which determines any case , judges and lawyers use not then such arguments : so christ having made an express statute concerning baptizing , and who are to be baptized , it is against the law of god for mr. blake to run to his analogy , and to impose on mens consciences such uncertain conjectures as his analogy from circumcision , which are no better than his own and other paedobaptists figments . and me thinks his words she● there is no strength in it , when he saith . the institution of baptism hath infants within the verge , and are not excluded from it ; for this we have our arguments , which from the initiating sacrament of the jews we onely illustrate . if other paedobaptists would stand to this , we should be less cumbred with the argument from the covenant and seal , which was mr. marshals and the assemblies main if not onely argument . however the reader may here take notice that mr. blake confesses that he with others do onely illustrate their arguments for paedobaptism by the argument from the initiating sacrament of the jews : which may move the considerate reader to regard little that argument , and to look for other arguments from the institution comprehending infants , which have and will appear frivolous , as his exception here against me hath been . mr. blake yet adds . the third likewise saith he , is uncertain and vain ; for how shall we know when the analogy holds full proportion ? when nothing can be fairly brought against the one , but may be also concluded on the other ? when is the proportion full ? if onely when omnia sunt paria . when mr. t. will destroy our old logick to set up his own divinity , it were to be wisht that he would furnish us with a new piece of logick as he hath done of divinity , that all learning humane and divine may stoop to his reformation . i have learnt these for maximes . parium exacta est convenientia . quod de uno parium affirmatur id affirmatur etiam de altero & e contra . but these with mr. t. are vain and uncertain , and all arguments that dance not after his pipe , though our saviors , st. pauls , or any others . answ. there is nothing here but flirts and flams . neither do i destroy old logick , nor set up any other than what i have from the scripture , yea and the best approved writers : nor need i any new logick to help me in the reformation of infant baptism , but such as protestant divines have used in reformation of popish and prelatical ceremonies . i do not say the maximes of logick mr. blake here sets down are vain and uncertain , and all arguments that dance not after my pipe . but this i say , mr. blakes rule about arguing from analogy conceived between circumcision and baptism , or any other old and new testament rites , so as without precept or apostolical example in the new testament to frame an obligation on our consciences is vain , and uncertain , nor doth our savior , or st. paul , or any other sacred writer argue so , as in my answer above may be seen . mr. blake , this can never happen ( saith mr. t. ) in analogies between the rites of moses and the rites of christ. how did paul then reason from a parity in the jewish altar and the lords table , cor. . , . yea from manna and the rock to the lords table ? as pareus and other interpreters observe , that spiritual meat was eaten in the one and in the other , and a like danger of prophaning the one and the other . answ. i said true , it can never happen in analogies between the rites of moses and the rites of christ that all things should be even , or that there should be an exact agreement between them , so , as that which is affirmed of the one should be affirmed of the other , or that there should be the same reason in the use of the one as in the other , and thence inferred , what ought to be done in the one ought to be done in the other , they who are to partake of the one are to partake of the other . this is enough to overthrow the supposed parity between circumcision and baptism as inferring infant baptism , that they agree not in this , that the institution of baptism extendeth it to all those to whom the institution of circumcision extends it . it is not true that paul did reason cor. , , . from such a parity in the jewish altar and the lords table , as if what was done at the one , must be done at the other by reason of an answerableness in the one rite to the other . but he argues from that which is common to both , and to all other religions whether true or false , that they which did partake either of them did thereby profess the same religion , to prove that they which should eat of the idol meats had communion with the idol , and so with the devil . it is not true that the apostle cor. . , , , . argues from manna and the rock to the lords table , as if he would prove that spiritual meat was eaten in the one , therefore in the other , or that it was dangerous to profane the one ( for what danger was there in profaning the cloud , sea , manna , or water out of the rock ? ) therefore there is the like danger of profaning the other , much less what was done in the one was to be done in the other by reason of analogy between them : but the apostles argument is manifestly this , the israelites being under the cloud , and passing through the sea , was to them as baptism to us , their eating manna and drinking water from the rock noted christ as well as the lords supper to us , and yet this could not save them from gods displeasure when they sinned , therefore our sacraments will not shelter us from gods wrath if we sin , which v. . . . of cor. . manifestly shew to be the force of the apostles reasoning . mr. blake adds . if when there is a parity in many things , it will be ( saith he ) uncertain how many parities will serve turn to make the proportion full . here is an excellent dexterity to enervate so many scripture arguments , that the weakness of this argument ( in spight of all logick ) might appear ; i have told him , and may tell him still , the corinthians and the pharisees wanted his head-piece , otherwise christ and paul had not gone so away with arguments of this nature . to satisfie him therefore fully , one parity will serve the turn . the exact proportion , say logicians , is in quantum paria respectu tertii in quo paria comparantur . there are many imparities between the lords supper and manna , yet they agree in this that both were spiritual meat ; so between the jewish altar and the lords table , but they agree , in this , that there is ecclesiastical communion in both of them , to make the partakers of one body ecclesiastical : many differences between circumcision and baptism , but so farre they agree ( by mr. t. his confession ) that both are initiating sacraments ; he hath multiplied many differences , but stands not to any as in application to this particular in difference . answ. there is in my answer nothing tending to enervate any scripture argument , though what i say is enough to shew the vanity of mr. blakes arguments ▪ there being no certain rule to shew how many or what sort of parities , general or special , essential or accidental will serve turn . neither paul nor christ did argue thus , this was appointed in a rite of the old testament , therefore thus it is to be observed in a rite of the new. in logick it is usuall to deny an argument valid à comparatis , though there be some parities , caeteris non paribus . it is true one parity will serve turn to make things compared even in the thing in which they agree . but there must be so many parities , or such a parity in things compared as make them equall in the reason of the thing inferred , otherwise one disparity proper to the matter is enough to enervate the argument . which is very manifest in the argument about infant baptism . for the formal reason of circumcising infants being the command , there is no parity to infer thence baptizing of infants without the parity of command . which is the difference i have often stood to in application to this particular in difference ; which is not whether baptism and circumcision be initiating sacraments , but whether an argument can be drawn to bind conscience in the use of the one from a command , in the use of the other without a precept in the new testament . mr. blake concludes this section thus : the third exception is , it is uncertain whether these rules be sufficient , whether there be no need of any more . it is certain then that mr. t. cannot make it appear that they are insufficient , in case he could he would not have left them at any uncertainty : i shall judge them sufficient till i hear from mr. t. the contrary . answ. i have made it appear that these rules are not sufficient to make good the proof from analogy disproved by me : nor was it formerly uncertain to me they are not sufficient ; yet i might say truly , it is uncertain , whether these rules be sufficient , whether there be no need of any more to satisfie others , who may think them too few as well as otherwise imperfect . i for my part do judge them notwithstanding mr. blakes plea to be insufficient , and all arguments inferring duty as of gods appointment in the use of a rite of the new testament from some likeness or agreement with a rite of the old testament now abolished , without direction in the new , as frivolous and serving onely to make wrangling , fill people with superstitions , and to weary scholars , as i say in the addition to my apology in answer to mr. baillee sect . . mr. cawdrey sabb. rediv. part . . ch . . against dr. sanderson , saying divine right or institution is that first which is properly and primarily such ; as what is ( first ) enjoined by express ordinance of god , or ( secondly ) what may be deduced therefrom by evident illation . secondly that which is secondarily and consequently such . to which four things ( say they ) are required , . equity , . analogy , . insinuations in the new testament , . continued practice of the church , speaks thus . but this proceeding seems not sufficient . . there are things now in common use which have all the four conditions , and yet he will not say they are divine institutions ; as the observation of easter &c : which yet are confessedly but ecclesiasticall . and will mr. cawdrey make a divine institution of infant baprism which in the next page he saith we have no express command ( nor express example of it ) in scripture , from grounds which at most can make but analogy without equity ( for in meer positive rites there is no equity but the appointers will ) insinuations in the new testament or any truly wel proved continued practice of the church ? however mr. cawdreys words are sufficient to shew ( though they oppose himself ) that he counted analogy not sufficient , no not though accompanied with equity , insinuations in the new testament and continued practice of the church to make a thing of divine institutution , but only ecclesiastical . which being granted , mr. marshals analogical argument ( as he calls it ) which with him the words of the assembly intimate to be the chief prop of the divine institution of infant baptism , falls to the ground . but le ts hear what mr. b. saith also . what need ( saith mr b. ) the same thing to be done twice , except men had questioned the authority of the old ? answ. the holy ghost hath delivered many things twice in the old and new testament , yet sure it was needful , else it is not likely it would have been done . will mr. b. charge the spirit of god with needless committing so many histories , sayings of christ &c. to writing , because they were written before ? and to his question i say , if there were no other need , yet there was this , that the agreement of the old and new testament might appear , whereby the authority of both is greatly confirmed . the whole scripture saith he , is the perfect word and law of god : and if he should reveal all his mind in one part , what use should we make of the other . answ. the gospels of the four evangelists are the perfect word and law of god , they need no unwritten tradition for a supplement , in them those things are written by which we may have life , john . . yet there is use of pauls epistles . suppose all gods mind revealed in one part , so as no more doctrine or truth were in the rest than in one , yet there is use to confirm , explain , inforce that which is elsewhere written in that one part . and indeed this reasoning of his would prove that book or part of scripture to be of no use , as suppose marks gospel , which is counted an a bridgement of another , or so much of that gospel as reveals no more of gods mind than another doth : which me thinks mr. b. on better consideration should disclaim . he goes on . how silent is the new testament concerning a christian magistracy ? which made the anabaptists of old deny it . where find you a christian in the new testament that exercised the place of a king , a parliament man , or justice of peace , or the like ? so of an oath before a magistrate , of war , of the sabbath , &c. how sparing is the new testament ? and why ? but because there was enough said of them in the old ? this also is the very case in the question in hand . answ. the anabaptists ( as they are called ) of former times , or some of them , as it is reported ( for their own books i never saw ) of them , denied it lawful for christians to be magistrates , to war , to swear , not onely because of the silence thereof in the new testament , but also because they mistook the meaning of the texts , as forbidding them is. . . micah . . zach. . . iohn . . mat. . . mat. . , . luke . , . &c. and so either did or seemed to do some of the antient christians , even those who are called the fathers , of which may be seen sixtus senensis biblioth . sanct . lib. . annot . , . and yet learned men do not think the new testament silent of a christian magistrate , of an oath , or war , but that there are texts for them in the new testament , of which some are brought by grot. l. . de iure belli . ac pacis c. . tim. . , , . rom. . . &c. and though there be no example of a christian king , parliament man , or justice of peace , yet we find a christian centurion act. . a christian deputy act. . . christian parents , husbands , masters , whose government is allowed , and rules given about the managing of it . wherefore i conceive mr. b. doth too much betray christian magistracy , souldiery , civil judicature , &c. who suggests to his reader , as if the new testament were silent of christian magistracy , and sparing about war , or oaths before a magistrate . i confess the determination of the old testament is obligatory , because these things are moral , not peculiar to the jews : but it doth not follow therefore that an argument is valid from analogy conceived between rites of the old testament and the new , or the jewish policy and the christian to conclude an obligation to us in a rite of the new testament , the rites of the old testament being meerly positive , not from the beginning proper to the jews , and together with the policy of the jewish church now abrogated . but there seems to be more difficulty about the sabbath . mr. marshall had said in his sermon , that all that reject the baptizing of infants do and must upon the same grounds reject the religious observation of the lords day . in my examen part . . sect . . i denied it , there being something moral from the beginning in the sabbath , not so in circumcision , and there being something in the new testament to prove an institution of the lords day , nothing about infant baptism , to this mr. m. replies , however the determinate day doth depend wholly upon institution , therefore they who reject that which depends upon positive institution , unless its institution can be expresly found in the new testament , are as much at a loss for the lords day as for baptizing of infants . . and the advantage is here for infant baptism above the lords day , because in the proof of infant baptism there is only need to shew the subject to whom baptism is to be applyed , in the lords day the institution of the day it self . answ. . that which he saies first confirms my exception ; for therein he acknowledgeth there is something natural or moral by institution about a sabbath , but shews nothing natural or moral in circumcision . . i never rejected infant baptism because its institution cannot be expresly in so many words or syllables without consequence found in the new testament , but because it is not there either in express words , or by good consequence . . if the determinate day require positive institution , there is institution brought out of the new testament , if not express , yet by good consequence , which i count sufficient . . yet i do not count mr. ms. consequence good by analogy in his defence pag. . the jews keep the sabbath on the seventh or last day of the week , ergo the christians keep the sabbath on the first day of the week . of my judgement herein with other antipaedo baptists more may be seen in my praecursor , s. . and for the other thing mr. m. adds , it is nothing to the business in hand , which is not about the greater or lesser necessity of clearing the institution of the lords day or infant baptism , but about the principle by which infant baptism is rejected , whether it necessitate us to reject the lords day : which i denyed , because this principle , that use of a meer ceremony or positive rite which hath neither precept nor example in the new testament is to be rejected , will not reach the lords day , which is not meerly positive , but in part moral , and hath precept and example for it in the new testament , neither of which can be said of infant baptism . that which mr. b. adds next about the desperate highest sort of antinomians , who wipe out all the old testament with a stroke , and that they may as well do so by the new testament too if they please , and telling us the question whether infants should be baptized is turned into a higher , whether the scriptures be the word of god or not ? i might well let pass as being nothing to the point in hand , the denying of infant baptism to be in the old or new testament , neither being upon the higher or lower sort of antinomians ( if there be such difference of them ) principle , they that deny infant baptism , being not necessitated to it , nor so far as i find in their writings ( except what i have met with in mr. dens books ) denying the obligation of moral precepts of the old testament . all that they are necessitated to maintain is , that ceremonial precepts of the old testament and imagined analogie between baptism and circumcision , the jewish church state and the christian , are of no force to conclude a divine appointment concerning any sacrament or meerly positive worship of the new testament . and therefore his pathetick rhetorick , though elsewhere of use , yet in a dispute as this his writing should have been , hath the face either of malignancy towards his antagonists , or of an indirect trick to prepossess people with horrour of that opinion , which he would refuse afore he comes to his arguments , which is the chief part of his skill . and for what he saith further that incestuous marriages are not forbidden in the new testament , and tells the men of bewdley , that some of eminency that deny infant baptism deny either incestuous marriages , or any thing else not forbidden in the new testament to be sin , it is like the former , sith he might know that antipaedo baptists are not necessitated to deny the obligation of the moral law , in which the laws about incestuous marriages appear to be in that the canaanites were punished for their incests levit. . . and mr. b. if he had any mind to deal candidly with me , might have told them , that i was none of those men , sith he might ( if he did read my books with any heed , of which i much doubt ) have told them , that to this objection i answered in my examen pag . . that the instance of the lawes about forbidden marriages brought by mr. m. is not to the point of the obligation of meer positive ceremonial worship , sith the command about prohibited degrees in marriage is moral . that yet there is for one branch of incest an express censure in the new testament , proving the unlawfulness of it . to which mr. m. page . of his defence saith , but how would you laugh at such a consequence in another , a man may not marry his fathers wife , a thing which by the light of nature was abhorred among the heathens , ergo all the degrees of forbidden marriages in moses laws stand firm ? whereto i reply , i made no consequence but this , one branch of incest is expresly censured in the new testament , therefore it is unlawful . and this i only brought to shew the impertinency of mr. m. allegation to prove the matter in question , it being granted by me that a morall precept of moses is in force , thought not a ceremonial , and yet mr. m. brings instances only of morals standing in force , none of ceremonials , and instead of cleering the pertinency of his own instances , makes a consequence as mine , which , saith he , i would laugh at in another , which dealing is cavilling not answering . the like to which is that which follows in him . the like say you against polygamy , there is proof against it , mat. . . . but is this an express prohibition of it ? must you not be compelled to go by a consequence to bring it in , which is ab i contend for ? whereto i reply . though mr. m. page . of his defence charged me unjustly with a socinian plot in my writings to question all conclusions deduced by consequence from scripture , yet page . he saith of me , that i neither there nor here deny this argument from a consequence to be sufficient for practice of some things in the worship of god , which are not expresly laid down in the new testament , and therefore he might easily have seen , if he would ▪ that to prove we may go by a consequence is not all he contends for , it being known to him that i grant it . but this he is to prove , or else he still is besides the business , that a consequence is good from analogy of an abrogated rite of the old testament to prove a divine appointment concerning a meer positive rite of the new testament , till this be done , his , and mr. bs. and mr. bls. arguings are quite besides the business in hand and carry an apparent shew of sophistry , not of just disputing . sect . iv. mr. bs. speeches about the little said for antipaedobaptism is vain , and his speech about the antiquity of infant baptism is very inconsiderate , and his speech about the difficulty and importance of the point in question is examined . the rest of mr. bs. ten positions are granted by me , but what he saith of me , pag. . that he never to his remembrance did plead with an able papist , but he could say for more for his religion then mr. t. said for his opinion on james . or his sermon since , that he might insinuate that he and others had reason to be settled in the practice of infant baptism , because i said so little then , and my sermon presently after , is like ▪ king iames his resolution , to be more for the bishops and ceremonies , because doctor reynolds and his collegues sayd so little against them in the conference at hampton court , from whence m : b. might gather ▪ that if such men as dr : reynolds ( whose equal every way the world did then or since scarce yield ) d : spark , m : chaderton , m : knewstubs , did fail to speak what had been requisite , when it was expected , though they were four , which were to object , and that upon a sufficient time of premeditation , and yet this no good evidence for bishops and ceremonies , it is no good evidence for infant baptism , that i being single , being to answer ex tempore , hardly allowed by m : b. to repeat his arguments , whereof some were hypothetical syllogisms , brought to prove an hypothetical proposition , and therefore such as could not be well repeated , and his arguments containing such terms , as it appears now by his book , he used in senses different from what other authors use them , and yet would not explain them , with sundry other captious devices , and provoking speeches , as i have in part made manifest in my writings , and through gods assistance shall do more , sayd so little at the dispute . who is there that hath experience of humane infirmity , who knows not that distractions , forgetfulness , in advertency , sudden weakness of body , extemporality necessitated , slowness of speech , care to restrain passion , do hinder a man from speaking that in a great meeting , which he could in his study by writing easily express ? what i sayd jan. . . was almost wholly as a respondent , as the argument required . now they that know the rule of schools understand the respondents business is but to repeat , deny , distinguish , apply to the arguments of the opponent , and this was done by me then , why it was done no more fully my antidote , praecursor , and the review shew . m : b. had in his epistle dedicatory to his saints everlasting rest , published to the world , that i was driven to gross absurdities , being moved to name those absurdities in his answer to my valedictory or ation , he names . p. . to all which i answer in my praecursor sect : . and clear my self from the absurdities he imagined . in his praefestinantis morator , when he comes to answer that section , he onely replies thus , sect : . i know not one word of answer that this section needs for him that will peruse my words . to which i conceive i may without any heat reply , that he either wrongs his readers by not making good that i was driven to gross absurdities , after my clearing of my self from them , or me , in not acquitting me from his charge . but i must needs speak it , though with grief , that i have scarce met with less justice , or fair dealing from any man than from m : b. and both his and other antagonists courses tend not to an impartial and equal way of examining the point in controversie , but they use artifices to prepossess men against me and my writings and speeches , and to deter them from considering them . in my january● ● . . was given an answer to m : bs. arguments so far as i could retain them in memory , or finde them in some imperfect notes , when i had sought in vain to have them from m : b. himself in writing . now they are in print , they have or shall have a large answer , if the lord will. papists may say much more than i sayd , yet that either for their religion orree will so much of moment can be sayd as against infant-baptism is vainly surmised . it is well m : b. in his . position confesseth some divines have argued weakly for infant-baptism , and brought some misapplied scriptures . if ye mean my books by the third or fourth written against them ▪ ( as it is most likely ) he might know my writings were in answer to m : marshall , whose writing is conceived to contain the assemblies grounds , he is stiled by m : stalham the antesignanus , and perhaps it may be judged arrogance in m : b. to imagine his own arguments better than his . for my part i think them weaker . however he had sh●wd some care of truth and love to me , if he had by communicating them to me endeavoured to stop me in my supposed error . but this i count my trouble , though i hope it will advantage the truth , that first mr : ms. sermon hath been magnified , & that by examining it i hoped i had done my work , and yet after m : blakes writing being magnified , i was put to answer that , and then mr : bs. preferred before them all , and yet i am referred by him to answer m : cobbet , m : drew , m : church , and after all doctor hammonds is preferred , so that i must answer that , or else the truth be betrayed . it seems paedobaptists know not well what to re● on , when they do shift so much from one to another . but i go on ▪ m : bs. eighth position is , that one sound argument is enough to prove any thing true : yet more may be brought against infant-baptism . almost all that protestants dispute against popish rites , non-conformists against prelatical ceremonies , may be said against paedobaptism , m : bs. words in answer to mr. bedford , plain scripture proof &c. pag. , . are appliable against infant-baptism . in my praecursor i had set down m. b. words in the second edition of the saints everlasting rest , part . . chap. . sect. . pag. . in the margin ; in his praefestinantis morator he sayth , to what end you recite my allegation of justin martyr is past my reach to imagine ; unless you would insinuate that i confess this to be the course with all the baptized , which i expresly say was the way of baptizing the aged . answ it had been easie for m. b. to conceive why i set down those words , to wit , to prove from his own confession , that to baptize upon profession of faith , and to admit none to the lords supper but those who are thus baptized , is no new over-strict way . and however he now endeavours to mince the matter , these words of his , [ and in the primitive times none were baptized without an express covenanting , wherein they renounced the world , flesh , and devil , and engaged themselves to christ , and promised to obey him , as you may see in tertul : origen , cyprian , and others at large . ] being printed with a ful point at the end , are as plain a denial that infants were baptized in the primitive times , as words usually express . as for the words following ; i will cite but one for all , who was before the rest , and that is justin martyr ; speaking of the way of baptizing the aged sayth , they are not words , if they be restrictive , that limit any one 's ▪ speech but justin martyrs , and if by them m : b. would intimate that justin martyr did not in that speech set down the way of baptizing all that were then baptized , the words following saying thus , how we are dedicated to god we will now open unto you , and then setting down the constant way of baptizing without any exception , m. bs. addition will easily be perceived to be but a shift to avoid the evidence of this relation of justin martyr , apol. . ad antoninum , being so plain to prove infant-baptism not to have been then in use among christians . likewise in my praecursor , sect. . pag. . i bring an argument against infant-baptism from m : bs. own words mutatis mutandis . his answer in his praefestinantis morator is in these words . his confidence , pag. . is marvellous . i doubt not but that he knows that i take the words [ since the solemn institution of baptism matth ▪ . ] inclusively ; and so i answer , that this solemn instition is our warrant , requiring us both to disciple nations , and baptize disciples ; and we have other scriptures which plainly prove infants to be disciples . answ : my confidence is upon good reason , m : bs. marvelling is from ignorance ; what he means by taking the words [ since the solemn institution of baptism , matth. . ] inclusively i know not ▪ except he mean that time when that institution was given , as well as the time after , or that institution to be a warrant as well as after precepts or examples . either way the medium of m. b. serves my purpose . for it plainly asserts , that what we have no warrant , in all the new testament , for , we are not to do ordinarily ▪ what we have precept and example for , we are to do . which if he will stand to , then his warrant out of the old testament is not sufficient for infant-baptism , and so it is not fully determined in the old testament , at what age persons are to be admitted into the church , as he sayd before , and what we do we have warrant for by his own grant , sith he cannot deny we have precept and example for baptizing professors of faith . and then his including here matth. . . in his texts ( though not brought plain scripture proof , &c. pag. . to prove his antecedent ) is an intimation that in all the rest of the texts , john . . acts . , . & . , , , , . & . . & . ▪ . & . , . & . . & . ▪ , . rom. . , &c. he findes not precept or example for baptizing of infants , and so if he finde not warrant matth. . . for baptizing infants , all his other proofs are by his own reasoning made invalid . for sure the texts alleged do as evidently prove this antecedent [ we have no warrant by word or example in all the new testament ( since the solemn institution of baptism , matth. . ) to admit any member into the church by baptism , but believers by profession , but both precept and constant example of admitting them by it ] as mr : bs. [ we have no warrant by word or example in all the new testament ( since the solemn institution of baptism , matth. ) to admit any member into the church without baptism , but both precept and constant example of admitting them by it ] the consequent then [ we must not admit ordinarily any by baptism without profession of faith ] must by the force of his own illation be undoubted to those that take the word for their rule . as for his evasion , that he hath other scriptures which plainly prove infants to be disciples , how miserably he fails therein will appear by that which follows in this review . the reader may perceive that whatsoever his talk be about a gift and ordinance of visible church-membership unrepealed , and of christs laying of hands on little ones , and such like arguments and texts he brings , yet if he will stand to his own reasoning in arg. . against deniers of baptism by water , pag. . of his plain scripture proof , &c. we have no warrant to admit ordinarily by baptism , but according to the precept and example in the new testament in the text , matth. . . and the other texts before recited . concerning which i have reason to be as confident as of common notions , that they include not infants , and to marvel that mr. bs. prejudice should so blinde him , as not to see the futility of his arguings to prove infants to be disciples included in the institution matth. . . but i proceed . because , as he sayth , pag. . an answer cannot be always presently given , which may make the case plain to some men , therefore mr. b. should have given his arguments in writing to those that came to him , which had been an easier and fairer way than to tell them as he doth , pag. . if any of you have taken up the opinion of antepaedobaptism , and have not read and studied mr. cobbet , m. church , and other the chief books , and been able ( at least to himself ) to confute them , you have but discovered a feared conscience ( a most heavy , though vain censure , shewing what rashness and distemper was in mr. b. in this writing ) which either taketh error for no sin , or else dare venture on sin without fear , and have betrayed your own souls by your laziness , as if a man might not be satisfied by reading of the scripture , and conference with the able of the opposite party , without reading so many books . sure mr. b. who had read those books shewed little charity to those of bewdley that came to him for arguments for infant-baptism , when he would neither set down his own arguments in writing , nor direct them in what part of those books they might have satisfaction ; but fly upon them with so deep a charge , without any moderation of spirit . and when he saith , pag. . he dare say by my books , that it is my case not to have received the doctrine of infant-baptism on the best grounds and arguments . i reply , . that there are many passages which make me think he never read my books with exact diligence and heed , but ( if i may use his own words ) he betrays his own soul by his laziness or prejudice . . it shews a fond conceit in him of his own arguments , which another perhaps will think weaker than those of calvin , ursin , piscator , the assembly , mr. m. &c. which he might perceive by my exercit. and otherwise , that i had considered . i said in my apology , pag. . that i rested wholly on cor. . . for many years , and that text mr. b. cals a full plain text , and dr. hammond in effect builds all his proof for infant-baptism upon it , and therefore mr. b. might have perceived his mistake concerning me , if he had heeded my books . if some divines have argued weakly for infant-baptism , used some unfit phrases , and brought some misapplied scriptures , as he saith , i am sure mr. b. had reason to number himself among them , if he be not the man who hath in all these outstripped them . i wish he had held his resolution of not heaping up many arguments , it would have saved me much labor . to his words , whatsoever mr. t. may pretend among the simple , i shall easily prove , that infant-baptism was used in the church as high to the apostles days as there is any sufficient history extant to inform us : and that the deferring of baptism came in with the rest of popery , upon popish or heretical grounds . i answer , . that my pretences about the innovation of infant-baptism are not among the simple , as he would insinuate , but among the most learned , for whose examination my allegations are obvious in print . . that his assertion concerning the antiquity of infant-baptism is most inconsiderate , there being nothing in ignatius , clemens alexandrinus , eusebius , epiphanius , and other the most approved histories and authors , for his assertion . and for those be brings , the highest is pope hyginus , whose words he alleged out of his decree , which i conceived had been in his epistle decretal , judged to be counterfeit , but mr. b. in his praefestinant is morator lets fly at me sect. . for my mistake . i confess i have not blondellus , surius , nicolinus , crab , binius , gratian ; but osiander epit. hist. eccl. cent. . l. . c. . saith , reliqua decreta , quae huic episcopo tribuuntur , ex gratiano ad verbum ( quia prolixa non sunt ) referemus . and then sets down five decrees , on the second of which he notes thus , ex hoc decreto el●●et vanit as harum constitutionum ; & quod falsò prioribus episcopis romanis tribuantur . quis enim credat ? &c. quare manifestum est haec decreta longo tempore post hyginum facta , & in ecclesiam dei , jam superstitionibus pontificiis contaminatam , introducta esse . hujus farinae sunt & proximè sequentia decreta , de rebus frivolis edita , of which the last is , in catechismo , & in baptismo , & in confirmatione unus p●trinus fieri potest , si necessit as cogat , non est tamen consuetudo romana : sed per singulos ( astus ) singula suscipiunt . whereby the reader may perceive the decree to be but a forgery , and that if it were true , yet it doth not mention the baptizing of infants , sith gossips were at the baptism of elder persons , ( though dr. hammond say in his letter , pag. . godfathers have place onely in baptizing of children ) as may be made appear by instances at the baptizing of some s●xon kings , and otherwise , and the decree it self , putting a gossip in catechism before a gossip in baptism , makes it probable not to be meant of a gossip to an infant baptized . and lest it be thought osiander is alone , i will adjoyn the words of mr. fox , acts and monuments first book at the year . the like ( that telesphorus made them not ) is to be thought also of the rest , not onely his constitutions ; but also of the other ancient biships and martyrs , which followed after him , as of hyginus anno . who succeeding him , and dying also a martyr , as volateranus lib. . declareth , is said or rather feigned to bring in the cream , one godfather and godmother in baptism , to ordain the dedication of churches : when as in his time so far it was off , that any solemn churches were standing in rome , that unneth the christians could safely convent in their own houses . likewise the distincting the orders of metropolitans , bishops , and other degrees , savour nothing less than of that time . doctor prideaux , one of mr. bs. own authors for this decree of pope hyginus about gossips , though he make mention of it where he speaks of that pope , compend . of history , cap. . sect. . interr . . yet after , among many of his inquiries , this is the third , whether it be likely that these religious popes in such extreme persecutions had liberty or list to think on making cardinals or gossips , and introduce a rabble of beggarly ceremonies . and though i were mistaken in calling that decree of hyginus the decree in the epistle , yet i think the authors which censured the decretal epistles did comprehend the decrees ascribed to those first popes among those forged writings under that name . however , what i have produced is enough to justifie my speeches in my praecursor , that the decree ascribed to pope hyginus about gossips , is so manifest a forgery , that i could hardly have imagined any learned protestant would ever have alleged so notoriously forged a writing : so that i need not answer mr. bs. allegation of this testimony , as by currant consent of historians assuring us that hyginus bishop of rome did first ordain godfathers and godmothers at the baptizing of infants , and his questions thereon , but by telling him he hath reason to be ashamed of abusing men with this forgery after so much eviction of it by learned men , being more like a brazen faced allegation , than that he so censures me for without cause . the next of his allegations is justin martyr , from whom besides the bastard writing of questions and answers ad orthodoxos , all the rest alleged , pag. . by mr. b. is manifestly impertinent , and his genuine writing yields a good evidence against the use of infant-baptism , as unknown to him , as may appear by what is said before . mr. b. in his praefestinantis morator , says sect. . seeing you deny nothing in justin martyrs words , you must yield that it was known to mothers that their infants were of gods kingdom , and then certainly they were church-members , and known disciples or christians . to which i reply , that i have not justin martyr now by me , and do doubt whether in that passage of the epistle ad zenam & serenum , he did mean infants , sith the term is [ children ] which may be meant of persons who are come to some age capable of understanding ; and if the words be meant of infants , yet it may be very well conceived that the meaning is , that of such is the kingdom of heaven , that is the kingdom of glory , and that not in respect of their present , but future estate , as when it is said , matth. . . blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake , for theirs is the kingdom of heaven ; that is , they shall have a great reward in heaven , vers . . and then it neither proves their present being of gods visible kingdom , nor that they were church-members , and known disciples or christians , and to be baptized . this testimony for the antiquity of infant-baptism i remember not alleged by any before mr. b. and therefore besides the impertinency of the words , as he himself allegeth them , i see no need to search any further into it . his allegation , pag. . out of iraeneus is impertinent , wherein besides other frivolous inferences out of his words he tels us , that irenaeus cannot mean by sanctifying , internal real sanctifying onely , for then according to their exposition of renascuntur , it should be but tautology , q. d. [ he sanctifieth all that are sanctified or new born ] whereas had he heeded these words set down by himself , this imagined tautology had been seen to be his meer mistake ; for his words are , omnes venit per semet ipsum salvare , he came to save men of all ages , as dr. hammond renders it , not as mr. b. he sanctifieth all that are sanctified . and yet if they had been thus , he sanctifieth by himself all that are born again or sanctified by him , it had not been a tautology , sith it is manifest that irenaeus by [ per semetipsum ] meant by the patern or example of his own age , and then it is no tautology , but hath this plain sense , that all that are sanctified by christ , he came to sanctifie them by the patern or example of his own age , and therefore lived in every age of a man , which is the purport of irenaeus his discourse in that place , which is by all sorts of writers censured as his mistake having said so much of mr. bs. mistakes , and thereby sufficiently shewed that no writer in the two first centuries mentions infant-baptism , and therefore mr. bs. speech is most false , that he shall easily prove that infant-baptism was used in the church as high as the apostles days , as there is any sufficient history extant to inform us , i leave the examining of the testimonies for baptizing of infants , or against them , till i have finished the review of the dispute from scripture testimonies , and then i intend not onely to examine what mr. b. hath scribled in his plain scripure proof , &c. part . . chap. . and in his praefestinantis morator , sect. . but also what mr. ms. friend dr. young ( as i am informed ) and what dr. hammond ( men better acquainted with the writings of the ancients than mr. b. or mr. bl. ) have said about the antiquity of infant-baptism , and do no whit doubt but that i shall with the lords assistance make good the assertions of the first part of my examen , that first , infant-baptism is not so ancient as is pre ended ; secondly , that as it is now taught it is a late innovation , meaning as it is taught by the assembly , mr. m. and the reformed churches called calvinists . as for mr. bs. assertion , that he should easily prove that the deferring of baptism came in with the rest of popery upon popish or heretical grounds , if he mean the deferring it till a person were catechized and of years sufficient to answer by himself to the three questions , about repentance , faith , and obedience , which were still put to the baptized , it is not onely vain and inconsiderate , but notoriously false , it being the constant order of the church to baptize after catechising , and the baptizing of infants onely an exception from the common rule and order , in case of danger of death , till after angustines days , who flourished in the fifth century . the grounds on which tertullian and gregory nazianzen did perswade the delaying of baptism , were neither popish nor heretical , as their words alleged in my exercit. sect. . shew . but on the contrary , the hastening of infant-baptism manifestly appears by the words of tertullian , and gregory nazianzen , alleged there , and of ●yrian , and augustine , together with the relations of gregory nazianzens and austins baptism alleged in my examen , part. . sect. , . to have come from the popish conceit , that without baptism infants could not come to gods kingdom , or were damned . i deny not , deferring of baptism to have been an abuse upon sundry misconceits set down in mr. ms. defence , pag. , , , . but not one of them popish , except that of washing away sins by it , which was the very ground of hastening infant-baptism , as appears from the passages forenamed by me . that which made persons of years defer their own baptism , made them hasten the baptism of their infants . whereas mr. b. would have mr. cradocks gospel liberty read , i have read it , and do finde that neither in his second part , chap. . nor here , mr. cradock is well used by mr. b. mr. cradock pag. . counts the custome of the church the weakest rule to discern by , and then onely he leaves christians to it , when there is no other light to go forward . mr. b. himself pag. . concludes against mr. bedford , that in so material a thing as infant-baptism , to hold traditions apostolical , not contrary to scripture-custome , or which may not be confirmed from scripture , as our rule , is prejudicial to scripture , and a complying with papists . besides , i need not say anymore than mr. b. there saith about the uncertainty of traditions unwritten , and customes of the ancients , which may serve for the present till a fuller answer be made to that calumniating question in his praefestinantis morator , sect. . do not you care to smite through christianity , so you may bring down infant-baptism ? which he hath as much need to answer as my self ; for he shews pag. . by the uncertainty about easter , the mistake of irenaeus about christs age , how uncertain the relations of the ancients are about things not set down in scripture . and for the customes of christians an age or two after the apostles , writers do shew many corrupt customes came in about easter , lent , infant-communion , sending the communion to the absent , mingling water with wine , monastick profession , honoring of martyrs ; about baptism , giving milk and honey to the baptized , anointing them , the use of the sign of the cross , which grew to a very great number in augustines time so as that in his . epistle to januarius , he complained , as is before mentioned , and yet they increased after in the heighth of popery , by reason of the innumerable company of humane ceremonies , insomuch as that the pure worship and truth of the gospel was shadowed so much , as that for the abundance of such leavs , the fruit of the gospel-worship and doctrine was very little or scarce discernible , and christian religion was almost wholly placed in those ceremonies . and therefore however there were weight in that argument of the apostle , we have no such custome , nor the churches of god of those times , yet especially in matters of ceremonies and positive worship the former after the apostles days , much less the present customes of the holiest saints and churches should not be of any great weight in cases controverted , except when they serve to expound some passages of the scripture that are cleared by them . yet this will no whit infringe the validity of the testimony of the ancients about the canonical books , or right readings of the scripture , no more than the discrediting of the jewish rabbins relations about their traditions doth infringe their testimony about the books of the old testament , though mr. b. in his praefestinantis morator , sect. . would insinuate , as if denying the certainty of austins rule about apostolical traditions must infer an uncertainty about the canonical scripture , which shews his proness to calnmniate me , and his inconsiderateness in not observing how this may be objected against his own speeches , pag. , as well as mine . as for mr ▪ bs. tenth position , though i grant it as it is set down , yet in his amplyfying of it there are sundry things that need animadversions . . that whereas he speaks of some , that disclaim reason because they require express words of scripture , and content not themselves with his supposed evident consequences ; he may know that i have often acknowledged consequences good proof from scripture , and if others do deny consequences , i do imagine that if they were rightly understood , it would appear that they deny onely such far-fetcht consequences as are used about infant-baptism , resting upon such hypotheses as are taken for granted , when they have need of proof , or such consequences as are drawn from the rites of the jews to the sacraments of the new testament , which if it be their meaning , mr. bs. censure of them as sensless ignorant wretches is too harsh and magisterial . . to what he saith , will you allow of such an argument for infant-baptism as christ brings for the resurrection ? i answer for my self and the people of bewdley , to whom that speech was intended , we will : but withall i say , that in viewing of his book i discern nothing but mr. bs. vanity , in imagining his arguments to be like christs , when upon trial they have little in them but superficial reasonings urged with much confidence and importunity upon mistakes , and stuffed with impertinent texts , frivolous questions , and childish wonderings , fitted like things set in fields and gardens to fright birds , to deter the shallow heads of this age from the truth , who either have no minde , or no ability to examine it scholastically . this is my judgment of it . chap. . after all his ten positions , mr. b. hath three more propositions , the first about the difficulty of it , in amplifying of which he confesseth the point of infant-baptism to be such , as the most godly learned impartial divines cannot agree in , after all their writings , disputing , studying , and praying ; which being true , it is most unjust in maresius that in his sixth question he makes the error of anabaptists intolerable , in ministers , that they will not permit such as deny infant-baptism to preach , nor will either themselves hear them , or pray with them , or suffer their hearers , but renounce communion with them , and make separations from them , and so shew themselves schismaticks , yea , and in their pulpits and writings endeavour to make them odious , exciting magistrates to imprison , expell , and destroy them ; on the otherside the parlament is justified in that speech of theirs in the declaration ordered march . . to be published in answer to the scots commissioners paper , that the opinion against the baptism of infants is such , as wherein in former ages as well as this , learned men have differed both in opinion and practice , and that therein they held it fit that men should be convinced by the word of god , with gentleness and reason , and not beaten out of it by force and violence . but mr. b. hath another fling at my speech , that it is an easie point , and that the reason why so many divines did not discern it , was their wilfulness or negligence , and this he imputes to want of humility , modesty , conscientiousness , and that he should tremble to pass so high a censure , forgetting what a heavy censure he had past before on others of discovering a seared conscience ▪ either taking error for no sin , or else daring to venture on sin without fear , and betraying their own souls by their laziness , p. . who should be antipaedobaptists without reading , and studying first some books there named , calling others ignorant sensless wretches , with much more of this kinde over all his book , in which it is frequent with him to censure me , my answers and speeches , as if they shewed some fearfull spiritual judgment fallen on me , when his own mistakes through heedlesness , or uncharitableness , are all the occasion of such a censure . but for my speech here , i say still , that i know not how to say otherwise , and yet deprehend not any such pride ▪ immodesty , or want of conscientiousness in my speech , nor any such high censure as he should tremble to pass , but as humble and fair an answer as is to be given to the question . godly , learned , and humble men have differed in the points of prelacy , ceremonies , ordinances , even in things that in themselves were easie to be discerned . what censure is easier than this , when some of them have continued in an error easily discernible , to say it hath been through wilfulness or negligence ? which things are incident to the best and ablest , when they have a conceit of the point as of small moment , specially in comparison of peace and unity , when prejudice by education , determinations of councils , schools , leading writers , magistrates censures , &c. prepossessing them , draw them from examining it , or if they do examine it , makes them willing to satisfie themselves with imperfect and raw answers to their scruples , and most of all , when the loss of preferment , friends , estate , liberty comes to be in question , and pre-engagements make it grievous to retract . what i said of this is manifest by the instance i gave about lutheran consubstantiation , which m. b. should have shewed not to be appositely brought , and not carp and cavil at my words so often as he doth ( though they were but in a speech in private conference ) that he may paint me out in as ugly shape as he can , specicially to those of bewdley , my dear auditors heretofore , but now causlesly by his affrightments estranged from me ; which if it be not a fruit of malevolence in him i know not what to call it . as for his talk of his own doubts and pains to resolve himself , and the easiness and plainness of the grounds of it , it satisfies not me , but still i am suspitious of his negligence in not considering better many of those things he hath taken up . in which i am confirmed from his own confessions of prejudice , unwillingness to be put on this business , in that it diverted him from other enjoyments and studies , and from his hasty printing , his indistinct handling specially of his second argument , never clearly opening his terms , nor shewing the hypotheses on which he builds his second main argument , his disorderly placing his proofs , his heaping up impertinent texts , his mistakes of my answers , his overly reading my writings out of contempt of them , his frivolous questions , and expostulations , &c. and for his inference about my wilfulness or negligence , it is but a further piece of petulancy to insinuate that of me , in which my apology , sect. . might have undeceived him , though it were not then so easie to discern that error as now , after so much debating of it , did not pride , prejudice , fear , or some other partial affection hinder . and for mr. bs. conceit of his grounds , though i neither finde them easie nor plain , yet it is no marvel others discern not how infant-baptism can be inferred from them , which can at most prove a reasonableness of the thing , as mr. bedford ▪ dr. field , dr. hammond , and others speak , but not an institution of god , which must be gathered from precept or example in the n. t. and can onely warrant our practice as the minde of god in meer positives about worship in the new testament . in the explication of his second proposition , pag. . he again objects my speech , that mr. ms. principle on which he establisheth his proof from circumcision for infant-baptism is one of the first condemned heresies , by which i meant that proposition which he hath in his sermon , pag. . that all gods commands and institutions about the sacraments of the jews binde us as much as they did them , in all things which belong to the substance of the covenant , and were not accidental to them , in which thus much is maintained , that some part of the command of circumcision , and the other sacraments of the jews , binde us as much as they did the jews , which is expresly condemned , acts . . as subverting the souls of the gentiles , and is called , the heresie of the false apostles , by the century-writers , cent. . lib. . cap. . and others condemn it under the title of judaism . but then saith mr. b. mr. m. is an heretick with me , and all the divines in the world that go his way . to which i answer , this inference hath too much shew of sycophancy , being urged so often , and to the people of bewdly , my quondam auditors . for , . though i say that doctrine is such an heresie , yet i do not say mr. m. still holds it as his words did import ; yea , i did acknowledg in my apology , pag. . and in this writing sect. . that mr. m. doth deny that we are tied to any practise of the ritual part , which is indeed to retract his former speech in his sermon . . but were it tru that he did still hold it , yet it would not follow , that he were an heretick with me . for , . i should not take him to be an heretick that holds that doctrine which is heresie , if it were not so directly , but onely by consequence not heeded , as this of his is . . nor do i take him to be an heretick that doth hold that which is heresie directly , except he hold it in or with a party made to maintain it . and therefore i do once more protest against mr. bs. calumniatory inference , and deny that i account mr. m. an heretick , and yet i account still his principle mentioned , if it were held as the words in the sermon did import , to contain one of the first condemned heresies , to wit , judaism . to this calumny mr. b. adds another . because i used the words of the apostle , acts . , . in a sermon , he from the report of his notary , and a multitude of my auditors , likely his tale tellers , without sending to me about the truth of it , prints what he received from them , and thence infers , that the baptizing of persons of years , notwithstanding their infant-baptism , is taken by me for a fundamental point , which the salvation or damnation of men doth necessarily depend on . or what i meant to say [ their bloud be on their own heads ] he knows not . and yet he conceives me to contradict my self when i blame the papists for making baptism of necessity to salvation . to which i reply , that herein mr. b. shews his inconsiderateness , or his minde to calumniate , or both . for , . he might have interpreted my words , as i think when i spake them they were meant , in reference to other duties which i had taught them , with that of baptism . . if it were meant particularly of baptism , yet the threatning i conceive was not to the bare omission , but to the omission joyned with opposition . . i am sure , if i did threaten , their bloud should be on their head for omission of baptism , it was not simply or barely for the omission , but for the omission after teaching , and upon supposition of conviction , by it of their duty ▪ and this i think mr. b. doth not stick to do to his hearers , in case after teaching and supposed conviction by it , they practise not a duty , though non-fundamental , as suppose reproving of their neighbours . for then they live presumptuously in sin , and such sinning consists not with sincerity and truth of regeneration . and yet this doth not suppose the point in it self fundamental , that is , such as the meer ignorance of it , or the bare omission of it doth damn a person , or exclude out of the kingdom of god : in which sense i blame the papists for maintaining a necessity of an infants being baptized to its entering into the kingdom of heaven . but mr. b. doth not think god lays so great a stress on this point , as i and others do . answ. that which i hold is this , . that baptism with water is an ordinance of christ that bindes christians now as well as in the apostles days , mat. . . mark . , . act. . . & . , . ephes. . . and i detest the audacious impiety of socinians , and those in our days , who count themselves above ordinances , that is as mr. b. well interprets it , plain scripture proof , &c. pag. . above obedience to god , and so gods , as being one of the most palpable delusions of unsound men in our days , who place their perfection in a manifest disobedience to christs appointment , and some of them in an antichristian presumption , as if they sate in the temple of god , and shewed themselves as god , do most arrogantly of their own heads , without any allowance of god , make void the express prime ordinance of the lord jesus christ , calling it a low dispensation , &c. i hope i shall have liberty hereafter to shew the frivolous allegations and pretences of these men . in the mean time they may see what mr. laurence , mr. bartlet , m. b. pag. . of this his book , have written for these ordinances . . i hold that every minister of the gospel is bound , as to preach the gospel , so to baptize those that are made disciples , matth. . . . that every believing christian is by necessity of precept tied to be baptized , that is , dipped in water , in testimony of his profession of christ his lord , upon his being made a disciple of christ , mat. . . mark . , . acts . . & . . . that this is ordinarily where and when it may be had without unmercifulness , defect of water , or some other like reason , a necessary means of salvation , mark . . pet. . . tit. . , . eph. . , . . that infant-baptism is not the performance of the duty of being baptized according to christs appointment . . that in a regular and orderly way , persons , notwithstanding their pretended infant-baptism , are not to be admitted to the lords supper till they be baptized upon profession of their faith in christ , acts . , cor. . , , . & . . these things i may hereafter have opportunity to debate more fully . as for that which mr. b. saith , pag. , . it doth no whit overthrow this necessity which i assert , but rather confirm it : for gods freeing us from the great burden of jewishrites makes it the rather necessary for us to obey christs appointment in those few sacraments he hath ordained , which mr. b. truly saith , as they are duties they are great , and so in themselves considered , and not onely in respect of the consequences of them . and he saith truly , pag. . all christs commands must be obeyed , both great and small , so far as we know them . yea , mr. b. scripture proof , pag. . saith , baptism with water is heb. . . reckoned among the foundations or principles which are of standing use , and therefore it is so it self . nor is his interpretation right , that the things ascribed to baptism are ascribed to it without the external washing . in all these places , rom. . , . cor. . . gal. . . ephes. . , . peter . . the outward use of water is expressed , though the things ascribed to it do presuppose something more , as he himself allegeth them , pag. . which is the meaning of that speech , pet , . . not the putting away of the filthiness of the flesh , that is , not it onely , but the answer of a good conscience towards god joyned with it . and whereas mr. b. tell us , that we shall never be able to justifie it , if we lay out the hundredth part , or perhaps the thousand part of our time , study , talk or zeal upon this question , i confess this may be true at some times , in some persons : but if other tenets be clear , and other duties not neglected , and this becomes a doubt of conscience , and fals into frequent practice , so as that it concerns them much for themselves , people , and little ones to be resolved in it , else they shall sin either by omitting a duty , or by doing a thing with gain-saying or doubting conscience , it is justifiable , though they bestow more than a hundredth part of their time and study upon it . and especially if the person be a minister called to be a guide to the people , and by special providence and solemn covenant led forth to vindicate the truth in such a time , when otherwise it is likely to be suppressed , and the assertors of it oppressed . in these and such like cases it may be unjustifiable , if a person do not spend more than the hundredth part of his time about this question ; else neither the hussites will be justified in spending so much time in opposing the half-communion , nor the protestants in opposing transubstantiation , nor the non-conformists in opposing the ceremonies of bishops . mr. tho. goodwin preface to mr. cottons dialogue for infant baptism , saith truly , the due application of baptism to all those persons christ would have it administred unto , cannot but be apprehended by all that have any insight into the controversies of these times , to be of very high importance . not that i like their carriage that neglect other necessary things , and spend all their time , study , talk , and zeal about this , such hypocrisy i should declaim against with him , remembring what our saviour said in a like case , matth. . . these things ought ye to have done , and not to have left the other undone . as for m. bs. third proposition concerning the grounds on which the point of infant baptism stands , that they are of great moment , because what he saith , rests on the heap of consequences he infers from the denial of infant baptism ( of which there is scarse any one true ) and the shewing them to be but vain surmises , depends on the dispute it self , i shall therefore respite the vindicating the truth , from them , till i come to examine in this review the arguments from scripture urged on both sides , after which shall come in those from humane testimony and reason , unto which i now apply my self . sect . v. the first argument from the institution , mat. . . mark . . and the practice in the new testament against infant baptism is urged . mr. b. saith pag. . he will prove , . that it is the will of god that some infants should be baptized . . that it is the will of god that all infants of believers ordinarily should be baptized . this latter doth better state the question , which is about the practice of those reformed churches that baptize infants , whose doctrine is , that it is the privilege of a believers child . yet mr. b. and m. baillee for some advantage chuse to undertake the proof of the former , whereas the true state of it is , as in my examen s. . and mr. ms. sermon , whether the infants of believers are to be baptized with christs baptism of water by the lawful minister according to ordinary rule ? i hold the negative , mr. marshall , dr. homes , mr. geree , mr. blake , mr. baillee , mr. cobbet , mr. baxter , &c. hold the affirmative . my dispute is to this purpose . the ordinary rule for baptizing is christs institution , john the baptists , and the apostles appointment and practice : but neither according christs institution , nor according to john baptists , or the apostles command or practice , or any other approved example in scripture , is the baptizing of infants of believers ; therefore the baptizing of infants of believers by a lawfull minister is not according to ordinary rule . the major is confessed by all sorts , specially protestants and anti-prelatists . mr. bs. words are cited by me in my praecursor , s. . and the force of his reason is shewed here before s. . to contain this proposition , what in baptism we have no warrant for by word or example in all the new testament ( since the solemn institution of baptism mat. . ) we are not to do ; and much more to like purpose may be gathered from other passages of his page , . and mr. m. in his sermon on chron. . . is very punctuall for gods command to be observed in his worship . the article of the church of england against reservation of the bread &c. hath these words , the sacrament of the lords supper was not by christs ordinance reserved , carried about , lifted up , or worshipped , whereby it is apparent that reservation of the bread is condemned , because it is not by christs ordinance , though mr. perkins in his right way of dying well confess it to be antient . bellarmine himself tom . . cont . de sacr . bapt . l. . c. . sacramentum non pendet nisi à divina institutione . chamier tom . . panstr . cath lib. . cap. . sect . . ●is solis baptizare competit , quibus commissio data est baptizandi . haec propositio per se patet : quia baptismi institutio pendet à sola voluntate instituentis : itaque ex hac sola me●●enda : quomodo eucharistiae . lib. . c. . s. . quod si igitur tota sacramenti essentia est ab institutione divina , profectò hac violata , non potest sacramentum consistere . c. . s. . he cites calvins words . institutio enim christi est certa regula , à qua ▪ si deflect as , jam rectum non tenes . s. . at nos , contra hanc sceleratam audaciam ratum habemus illud bielis in canonem lectione . sacramentum irritum reputatur si contra institutionem celebretur . l. . c. . s. . sed non peccari in missa privata negatur ; non enim aliter potest si contra institutionem admittatur : sic consentiunt omnes peccatum fuisse , cum baptizarentur mortui : quia videlicet institutio habuit doceri , baptizarique gentes : in quibus mortui nulli numerantur . sic emendatum fuit , quod olim admittebatur , ut infantibus porrigeretur eucharistia : quoniam institutio habet , ut seipsum probet , qui de hoc pane sit esurus : similis omnino & communionis ratio ; quandoquidem disertum , accipite , edite . mr. selden lib. . de syned . ebrae . c. . pag. . modorum & temperamentorum ejusmodi ex arbitrio humano accessione , ut id quod esset institutum aliquod divinum novaretur aut ullatenus mutaretur , nunquam ritè permissum est . if all these testimonies satisfy not , the apostle pauls speech cor. . . yields us this truth , that the institution of christ is that whereby an abuse in a sacrament is to be reformed , and therefore is the ordinary rule according to which the sacrament is to be administred . whence the new annot. on that place infer , the only way to reform any abuses in the church , is to have recourse to the word of god and first institution . and even the assembly itself confession of faith chap. ▪ make many things used by papists , as private masses , half-communion , adoration , elevation , reservation of the bread , contrary to the nature of the sacrament , and to the institution of christ , and prove it only by these texts . cor. . . mark ▪ . . cor. ▪ , , , , . math. . . which are no proof without this proposition , to vary from the institution in things appointed is evil , as being an humane invention , or worshipping of god after the commands of men , contrary to matth. . . the minor is confessed by mr. cawdrey sab. rediv. part . ch . . num . . we have not in scripture either precept or example of children baptized . mr. m. in his sermon pag. . that there is neither express command or example in the new testament that children should be , or were baptized , and pag. . it is said indeed that they taught and baptized , and no express mention of any other , and a little after , both john and christs disciples and apostles did teach before they baptized , because then no other were capable of baptism : but that we may not seem to beg what is to be proved , i further argue thus . the institution and practice of the sacrament of christi an baptism is set down in the new testament ; but baptizing of infants of believers is neither according to the institution of christ , nor any practice or example therein , ergo. the major is plain of it self : for christian baptism being a sacrament of the new testament , must have its institution and example to regulate it , there or no where . it is frequently put into the definition of the sacraments of the new testament , that they are ordained by christ himself , and for defect of christs institution in the new testament , sundry things are denyed to be sacraments of the new testament . the minor is proved from the texts which speak of baptism , either of the institution or practise . from both which i argue thus . matth. . . is christs institution , mr. b. calls it the solemn institution of baptism : but the baptizing of infants of believers is not according to christs institution of baptism matth. . . ergo. the minor is proved , first from the subjects appointed to be baptized , to wit disciples of all nations . they that are not disciples of christ are not appointed to be baptized . norton resp . ad apollon . c. . pag. . non 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 baptizandi : matth. . . discipulate baptizantes . but infants of believers are not disciples of christ ; therefore they are not appointed to be baptized . that [ disciples ] included in the verb [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make disciples ] as [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is rom. . . in [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is the substantive to [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , them ] is proved from the expression , john . where it is said [ when the pharisees heard that iesus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , maketh disciples and baptizeth ] this the evangelist saith was done by the disciples of christ. now what they did before in judaea , they were after appointed to do among all nations , matth. . . therefore no other were appointed to be baptized than were baptized before , iohn . . ( saving only with greater extent ) that is , disciples made of , or among , or in all nations . beza annot . in mat. . . discipulos facite , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , id est discipulos mihi facite ex omnibus gentibus , make to me disciples out of all nations . ursin explic. catech . part . . q. verbum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quo christus utitur proprie est discipulos facite , quod declaratur a ioanne c. . . the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] which christ useth , is properly [ make disciples ] which is declared by iohn ch . . v. . pareus comment . in matth. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , est idem quod 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , discipulos facere christo , ut explicatur iohn . . it is the same with to make disciples to christ , as it is explained john . . the new annot ▪ on matthew . . of the first edition ( which is now altered in the second edition , to hinder truth ) teach ] greek , make disciples of , as iohn . . all nations ] not iews alone , but gentiles also acts . , , . chamier panstr . cath . tom . . l. . c. . s. . it was the express command of christ , teach or make disciples in all nations . norton resp . ad apollon : c. . pag. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to make disciples , joh. . . cameron in his lecture on mat. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to make a proselyte , is as mat. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is said for [ to make a disciple ] . this is confirmed in that what is said of joseph mat. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , rendred by the vulgar latin , beza , our english , &c. [ who also himself was iesus disciple ] is iohn . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , being disciple to iesus . whereby it is apparent that in both places , in matthew the noun [ disciple ] is included in the verb , though in matthew . . it be used actively [ make disciples ] in the other matthew . . it is used passively [ he was himself a disciple ] the same is to be conceived of the two other places where the word is used matthew . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 made a disciple . acts . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 had made many disciples . and this is further proved from the parallel place mark . . where [ preach the gospel to every creature ] answers to [ make disciples all nations ] and [ he that believeth and is baptized ] answers to [ baptizing them ] which plainly shews the subject ▪ of baptism to be disciples , and those disciples to be believers , as chamier proves panst . cath . tom . . l. . c. . s. . but such are not infants of believers . ergo , they are not appointed to be baptized . . those only christ appointed to be baptized to whom the gospel was preached , and the persons taught ; but such are not infants , ergo. the major is plain both by the words , mat. . . make disciples , which is by teaching , and more plainly from mark . . go preach the gospel to every creature , which answers to [ disciple all nations ] and this is to precede baptism . this is confirmed by the apostles practice , which shews how they understood christs words , and how we should understand them , for they baptized none till they were taught , ergo neither should we . conformable hereto is the constant exposition & observation of former and later writers and expositors , of whom as they have occurred to me i shall set down their words . athanasius orat. contra arianos . ideoque salvator non quovis modo baptizandum praecepit , sed primum dixit docete , ac deinde baptizate in nomine patris et filii et spiritus sancti , ut ex doctrina recta fides oriretur , et cum fide baptismatis integra initiatio perficeretur . hieron . in mat. . . primum docent omnes genses : deinde doctas intingunt aqua non enim potest fieri ut corpus baptismi recipiat sacramentum , nisiante anima fidei susceperit veritatem : ordo praecipuus : jussit apostolis ut primū docerent universas gentes : deinde fidei intingerent sacramento et post fidem ac baptisma quae essent observanda praeciperent : which words are also ascribed to hilarius in matthew . , . and the like to beda , anselmus , aquinas , paschasius , rabanus , lucas brugensis , iansenius , and many others on matth. . . which were it necessary might be produced : whence the ancients deduced , that persons were first to be catechized , and then to be baptized : which was constantly observed , except in case of present danger of death towards children of believers , untill some later ages . but because later protestant writers are of more esteem with most of my antagonists , i will adde some of them , calvin in matthew . . apud marlor . baptizari jubet christus qui nomen evangelio dederint , seque professi fuerint discipulos . ursin cat. explic. part . . q. . quasi dicat colligite mihi ecclesiam per verbum , et quos feceritis mihi discipulos toto corde credentes eos omnes et solos baptizate & mihi areliquis separate . pareus com. in matt. . . colligite mihi ecclesiam inter omnes gentes , praedicatione vestra adducentes eos ad fidem . alsted . theol. polem . parte . pag. . ut praecipitur ex cohaerentia sententiarum matth. . docete omnes gentes ( nempe praedicando evangelium ) baptizantes eos . confer cum marc. . becm . exercit. th. . p. , . doctrina praecedit , baptismus sequitur . mr. cotton , the way of the churches in new england , chap. . sect . . and indeed the commission which christ gave his apostles , holdeth it forth that they were by preaching to make disciples before they baptized them and their children . this later is his own addition , the rest is right and to my purpose . but sure christ did not appoint to preach the gospel to infants , therefore he did not appoint to baptize them . for christ appointed his disciples to baptize none but they who were first preached to , and consequently they do it without commission from christ , who baptize infants ordinarily without preaching the gospel to them . i suppose no man will conceive christ appointed infants of a day old to have the gospel preached to them , it had been a ridiculous injunction ; therefore neither did he appoint them to be baptized . for both commands are joined together concerning the same persons . . the institution is , to baptize into the name of the father , son , and holy spirit , but the baptizing of infants is not into the name of the father , son and holy spirit ; ergo their baptism is not according to the institution . the minor is proved from the right understanding of the meaning of the phrase of baptizing into the name of the father , son and holy ghost , beza annot . in matthew . . into the name ] that is the father , son and holy spirit being called upon . and this interpretation is confirmed from the words of ananias to paul acts . . arise and be baptized , and wash away thy sins , calling on the name of the lord , where is injoined calling on the name of the lord with baptizing , which explaineth what christ had appointed , mat. . . of baptizing into the name of the father , son , and holy spirit . or to be baptized into the name is to be baptized with the person baptized , his devoting himself to the service of the father , son , and holy spirit . this is gathered from the phrase cor. . . were ye baptized into the name of paul ? beza annot . in acts . . baptizari autem in ejus nomen dicimur , cui nos per baptismum dicamus ac consecramus : quamobrem recte paulus negat sese in nomen suum quemquam baptizâsse . or to be baptized into the name of the father , son , and spirit , is to be baptized with profession of that doctrine , to wit , that jesus is the son of god , act. . . testifyed by the father , son and spirit , mat. . . john . , , . as to be baptized into johns baptism , acts . . whether the same with being baptized into the name of the lord jesus , verse . as those conceive that expound the words as spoken of what iohn did , or different , yet it was with profession of doctrine , as beza annot . in acts . . baptizari in ioannis baptisma significat doctrinam quam ioannes annunciabat , ac baptismi symbolo obsignabat , profiteri , & baptismo adhibito amplecti . i will add the words of grotius annot . in matth. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] cum locutio , haec varias habeat ex hebraismo significationes , eam his praeferendam arbitraor , quae baptismo maximè propria est . est autem baptizari in aliquem , vel in ejus nomen , se ei auctorare atque devovere , & de ejus nomine appellari ●elle . paulus cor. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , respiciens illud exodi . . crediderunt in deum & mosen servum ejus , id est , mosi tanquam dei ministro cum bona siducia regendos se commisere , sic paulus negat quenquam baptizatum in suum nomen , corinth . . , . hoc est , sibi velut novi dogmatis auctori mancipatum . maimomides de bello capta 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : baptizet eam in nomen proselytarum , id est , in eam religionem quam profitentur proselytae . christiani igitur tres sui dogmatis auctores agnoscere jubebantur , patrem , filium & spiritum sanctum , nihilque ut necessarium admittere , quod non ab eis esset profectum , id est , quod non à patre ortum , à filio proditum , à spiritu verò esset partim explicatum apertius , partim obsignatum . administratur enim baptismus , ut loquitur hilarius , in confessione , & auctoris & unigeniti & dom . but infants of believers do neither call upon the father , son , and holy spirit , nor devote themselves to their service , nor profess the doctrine of christ , therefore they are not baptized into the name of the father , son , and holy spirit , according to christs appointment . mr. m. defence page . calls these petty reasonings , and saith , that baptizing into the name of the father , son , and holy ghost should be interpreted to be invocation of gods name , and so to make baptism and prayer all one , is strange divinity . i reply . my words are perverted by him : i said baptizing is to be with the party baptized his invocation of the name of the lord , not that baptism and prayer are all one , but that they should be concomitants , and together in the use of baptism after christs appointment . and this is no strange divinity to others , however it be to mr. m. the words of ananias acts . . beza on matthew . . shew it to be no strange or forced divinity . becman exercit. theol. . p. . hath the like , in nomen hoc est invocato nomine christi baptizamur . the new annot. on cor. . . the third reason taken from the form and end of baptism , wherein we make a promise to christ , calling on also the name of the father , and the holy ghost . the words of grotius a learned man , whatever his other qualities were , shew it to be old divinity . annot. on matthew . . he speaks thus . post has ergo stipulationes atque responsiones , quas verba sacramenti tertullianus vocat ad militiae morem alludens , sequebatur baptismus , cui accedebant preces in quibus nominabantur pater , filius , & spiritus sanctus . orationem hanc propriè ad patrem directam indicare videtur justinus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . deinde , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . solemne ejus invocations verbum erat abba pater , ut not at chrysostomus . ad rom. . the words in chrysostome hom . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . that is , by which we cry abba father . this holy ministers know what it is , rightly commanding to say this word first at the mystical prayer , meaning at baptism . grotius goes on thus . his si addas id quod acts . . refertur ab anania dictum paulo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , videbis tum eum qui baptizabatur , tum eos qui baptismo aderant ( neque enim in toto coetu exercebatur primis temporibus , quod ostendunt , &c. ) solitos orare deum patrem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , quomodo ipse orare nos docet , john . , . ut sidem ejus qui baptizabatur , & liberam illam christianismi professionem muneraret spiritu suo sancto per gradus quosdam , quorum initium erat , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . grotius notes to like purpose on luke . . where it is said , jesus being baptized , and praying , the heaven was opened ; which shews christ prayed at his baptism , and thereupon the spirit descended ; which the ancients conceived as a rule , and is at least recorded as an example to be imitated . mr. cobbet in his just vindic. pag. . cals this new light , which if he mean ironically , ( as it is likely he doth ) he may hereby perceive , that he is mistaken , and for what he excepts against this exposition , that neither in the baptizing of the samaritans , acts . was that rule observed , nor was it possible that the three thousand baptized in one day , acts . should arise each of them , and call upon the name of the lord , as they were baptized ; it proceeds upon a mistake , as if no calling on the name of the lord were sufficient , but that which was set and solemn before the publick assembly , whereas neither is baptism necessary to be administred before the publick assembly : grotius proves out of justin martyrs words , and otherwise , that it was administred not as they now do infant ▪ sprinkling in the publick meeting place , but in some place without , aside from the publick assembly , and the calling on the name of the lord was or might be ejaculatory , whether in the heart onely , or by words , praying to the father by christ for the spirit . mr. m. makes this inference from my words ; then it seems if the party baptized call on the name of the lord by prayer , that 's all that is intended by baptizing into the name of the father , son , and holy ghost . but this is but another of his pervertings of my words : for in the same place i joyned with it , devoting themselves to the service of , and adherence to the father , son , and spirit , which i proved out of cor. . , . which proves plainly that to be baptized into the name of the father , son , and spirit , notes not a ministers commission from the father , son , and spirit , nor a form of words to be used by him at baptism , whether the party baptized understand it or no , but in baptizing , engaging the party baptized to acknowledg the father , son , and spirit , as lord and teacher , diod. annot. in cor. . . in mine own name ] as to binde them unto me to acknowledg me for their head. hence johns baptism is the doctrine he preached , and the baptized by him professed , mark . . acts . . & . . and the pharisees therefore were not baptized of john , luke . . because they should have professed johns doctrine , which they were against , if they had been baptized of him , as their disciples did their doctrine , and johns disciples did his . clear therefore it is , that [ baptizing into the name ] doth note not onely the act of the ministers of baptism , but also the party baptized his act of invocating , addicting , profession of service and doctrine , and obediently testifying it by that sign : for that is plain from the command , acts . . let every one of you be baptized in the name of jesus christ , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is the requiring of a duty from them conjoyned with repentance , and ●herefore to be baptized is not meerly passive , but implies a voluntary yielding of a person to it . and it is further proved from the words to paul , acts . . where he is commanded , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , arise , baptise , and wash , which all require voluntary action on his part , as well as ministration on ananias his part , out of which this argument is formed : they are not baptized into christs name , or his fathers , and spirits name , who do not perform the acts required in that expression ; but infants of believers do not perform the acts required in that expression ; therefore they are not baptized into christs name , or his fathers , o● spirits , according to the meaning of it in the institution . so that this argument is not a petty reasoning , but a solid reason , to prove infants baptism not such as christ appointed . as for mr. ms. frivolous question , were not the infants of the jews devoted to god by circumcision , though they could not actually devote themselves ? though i am not bound to answer his impertinent questions , yet i will tell him they were ; yet this is nothing to the business in hand , about the meaning of the phrase [ to be baptized into the name of the father , son , and holy spirit ] which manifestly implies the party baptized his act , which infants cannot do . whereas no where ▪ there is such a command [ be ye circumced in the name of jesus christ ] nor is it all one to be circimcised , as to be baptized ; which is still supposed but never proved . . i further urged , christ bids the apostles presently after baptism , teach them to observe what ever he commanded ; but this direction could not pertain to infants , they could not be taught to observe christs commands ; therefore neither were they appointed to be baptized : mr. m. denies that they were enjoyned presently to teach them to observe what christ commanded . but the text knits these together , baptizing and teaching , so as that they that were baptized should be taught , & that by them that baptized them ; which the apostles could not do , being to go up and down from place to place , to plant the churches in all nations , if they had been to baptize infants ; for then they must have staid many years till they came to understanding to be taught to observe what christ commanded . no man me thinks should imagine christs appointment to be thus , make infants disciples , and baptize them , and then after five , six , or ten years , when they are grown to some understanding , come again and teach them to observe what i have commanded , but that christ did appoint them to teach them presently after baptism , that is , in so many hours or days after that ordinance was administred , as it could be well done . nor doth mr. cobbet avoid this objection by saying , pag. . then they must be presently taught the whole minde of christ , which is impossible . for [ presently ] is not restained to an instant , but comprehends a just latitude of time for the doing of the thing , onely it notes that the beginning of it is to be not long after baptism , but sooner by much than it could be done to infants . mr. baxter plain scripture proof , pag. . argues thus , what christ hath conjoyned , man must not separate ; but christ hath conjoyned discipling and baptizing , ( i add , and teaching ) therefore we must not separate them . . the institution of christ is best understood by the command of the apostles , the resolution of philip , the practice of john baptist , the apostles , and other men sent by god to baptize ; but the apostle peter commanded first repentance and then baptism , acts . . philip resolved the eunuch demanding , what hindereth me to be baptised ? if thou believest with all thy heart , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , thou maist , it is lawfull or allowed thee , acts . , . john the baptist , the apostles , and other holy men sent by god to baptize , baptized none but professors of repentance , faith , and being disciples of christ , as may appear by the texts mentioning their baptizing , mat. . . mark . . luke . . acts . ▪ & . , , ▪ & . . & . . & . , . & . , , , . & . . & . . & . . therefore christs institution is of baptizing onely professors of repentance , faith , and being disciples of christ , and therefore not infants of believers . the major cannot be denied by those that confess that scripture best expounds scripture , and that the apostles knew christs minde , and did observe it . the minor is manifest from the texts alleged . and mr. rutherfords words are express to that purpose , divine right of church ▪ government , cap. . q. . pag. . we reade that john baptist and the apostles baptized none but such as confessed their sins , and professed faith in christ jesus . to this mr. m. defence , pag. . says , that it would be a hard task for me to prove that john baptized none but upon profession of repentance . i reply , . it is proved already and confessed by mr. rutherford . . i did think mr. ms. own words , sermon pag . that john did teach before he baptized , because then no other were capable of baptism , did amount to as much , till mr. m. to help himself , referred [ then ] to the time untill parents were converted not to the time of johns and the apostles ministry , of which the objection was , to which in those words he answered . for the objection was , that they always taught and made them disciples , by teaching before they baptized any ; and mr. ms. words in his answer were , john and christs disciples , and the apostles , did teach before they baptized , because then no other were capable of baptism , which if not understood of the time of their ministery , it was an answer besides the objection . . mr. m. hath not yet shewed any other , but such baptized by them , and therefore it is probable in the highest degree of probability that no other were baptized by them . . i think an argument in this matter from the evangelists relation negatively is good proof , unless we will suppose john baptist and the apostles were defective in their duty , or the evangelists in their narrations of that which frequently ( if it had been their duty ) would have occurred , and their story lead them to mention , and it was of much concernment to the churches of god in after ages they should . . he saith , it would be hard to prove that john did impose or require confession of sin before baptism . reply . i think not , . what they did , sure was required of them , else it had not been an acceptable thing , and by john , else he had failed in his duty , luke . . but they confessed sin afore baptism ▪ matth. . . mark . . ergo. . he that preached repentance to them that came to be baptized , required confession of sins ( which is a chief part of it ) afore baptism ; but so did john , matth. . . ergo. . he that preached to them to prepare the way of the lord , required confession of sins afore baptism , for that was the preparing the way of the lord by bringing persons to confess sins , and then to baptise them ; but john did preach to prepare the way of the lord , mat. . . . he that preached the baptism of repentance , required confession of sin to baptism ; but john did preach the baptism of repentance , mark . . luke . . acts . . & . . to prevent this , saith mr. m. it is said , he baptized them eis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( unto repentance ) not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( in repentance ) as stated in actual repentance . but dare mr. m. in good earnest say that john baptist did admit persons to baptism that were not in a state of repentance ? if he should , i doubt not but to be able to prove the contrary from that which is said of those he baptized , matth. . . they were baptized of him in iordan , confessing their sins ; and mark . . they were all baptized of him in the river of iordan , confessing their sins ; [ all ] must not be understood simply , for so it were not true , but , as the matter requires , with this limitation , all that were baptized were baptized confessing of sins , which was a state of repentance , matth. . . the different state of those that believed iohn , and those that believed not , is expressed thus , the one repented that they might believe , and the other not . and by comparing it with luke . , . it appears they onely were baptized that believed iohn , and others not . but were it not mr. m. had been minded to wrangle , there had been no need to have proved this , his own words , that there was a new church to be constituted of those that should receive christ , sermon page . shews none were to be baptized but penitents , unless they were to be church members who were not in a state of repentance . would iohn admit manifest impenitents ? then the new church should consist of impenitents , and so no difference between the church and the world , them that receive christ and them that receive him not , all should be church-members . iohns baptism and christs is by protestants asserted to be all one , saving that the one pointed at christ to come after , acts . the other as already manifested by name , neither did admit any but penitents , and believers in shew . as for mr. ms. quirk , that he baptized 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 matthew . 〈◊〉 . unto repentance , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in repentance . . i might urge erasmus his reading ad poenitentiam , at or upon their repentance , as the like is to be expounded matthew . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not [ unto ] but [ at the preaching of ionas . . there is no need ▪ for both are true , and may be proved out of the text , that he preached repentance to be before baptism and after . that he preached repentance to be before baptism is already proved , and pareus in his comment . on matthew . . disputing against maldonate the iesuite , who applies this confession of sins to auricular confession , urgeth the tense 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it is in the present tense , referring to the time of baptism , having confessed their sins , or then confessing their sins when baptized , not confessing their sins after as in auricular confession at the sacrament of penance as they call it . hereupon he urgeth , non prius baptizabantur postea confitebantur ut in●p●e fingit maldonatus , and concludes , that iohn rejected the pharisees when he saw their hypocrisy , v. . and infers that his auditors first in testimony of repentance confessed their sins , and then were baptized , and gathers this doctrine , to the sacraments no impenitents are to be admitted . it s true that he baptized them unto future repentance , that is so as that they were required and professed to repent and change their lives . therefore he required that they should bring forth fruits meet for repentance , luke . . and directed particularly wherin verse , , . initial repentance is prerequired to baptism , and continued repentance is to follow after , and therefore iohn baptists calling for repentance and preaching the baptism of repentance shew not only that this was the lesson they were all to learn , but that also as pareus proves , that they must all manifest that they repented afore he baptized them , and that all did and were tied to make confession of sins , notwithstanding mr : ms. saying . master m. sets down the judgement of very learned men who conceive their confession of sins was not because it is a necessary medium to all who should receive baptism , but to cleer his baptism from misconstruction , to thwart the opinion of justification by the works of the law. to which i say . . that were this granted , yet it avoids not my argument , who bring the matter of fact onely , it is enough for me at present if it appear that iohn baptized none but penitents . . yet the judgement of those very learned men is but their own saying , nor can it be right . for if the end of iohns requiring repentance was only to clear his baptism from misconstruction , because the men who came to be baptized of iohn , were such as had been educated in an opinion of justification by works of the law , & so more was required of them than of others , as it is usual to require more of an heretick for his admission into the bosome of the church , then he had required such confession of sins and repentance only of pharisees and their scholars , whereas he required it also of publicans , harlots , souldiers , as may be seen luke . , , , , . and indeed he required it of all for both ends , that he might contradict the pharisees doctrine , and because it was a necessary prerequisite to his baptism , because his baptism was contrary to the baptism that initiated proselytes into iudaism , in the nature of it , that is the doctrine taught by the baptist , and professed by the baptized , the pharisees baptism requiring observance of the law for righteousness , and iohns baptism requiring repentance for remission of sins , and therefore the pharisees rejected it , luke . , . so that in truth this judgement of those learned men about the reason of iohns baptism proves against mr. m. that repentance is to antecede baptism , and his allegation thereof may be retorted upon him . . to strengthen this argument from the institution of christ and practise apostolical , there are many passages in the epistles , which do prove that baptism was and ought to be with such profession and acts of the baptized , as do not nor can ordinarily be ascribed to infants of believers , and therefore they are not rightly baptized according to ordinary rule . ro. . , know ye not , saith the apostle , that so many of us as were baptized into iesus christ , were baptizd into his death ; therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death , that like as christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the father , even so we also should walk in newness of life , now to be baptized into death & christs death is by baptism to engage our selves to dy with christ to sin , with profession of purpose of newness of life and hope of resurrection . becman . exer. theol. . pag. . baptizari in mortem christi dicimur quatenus stipulamur nos credere in christum pro nobis mortuum & ipsius exemplo veluti en●care peccatum ne nobis dominetur . but this could not infants do therfore no insants were then baptized , and consequently ought not to be now . . cor. . . for even by or in one spirit have we been baptized into one body , whether jews or greeks , whether bond or free , and have been all made drink into one spirit , or as some copies have it , have been all made to drink or drench into one drink into one spirit . that here baptism with water and the drinking the cup in the lords supper are meant , is manifest , the apostle arguing from the end of those two rites for the union and communication between all christians , as cor. . , . he had done in the lords supper , and eph. . ▪ . he doth from baptism . and without that allusion the phrase is not intelligible . and the exception of the antibaptists is vain , that it is spirit-baptism not water-baptism , for it is indeed both , spirit-baptism from the spirit as the cause , and water-baptism together as the outward element . now hence three arguments arise against infant baptism . . all that were baptized into the body were baptized by one spirit as the concurrent cause as mr. b. saith rightly in his plain scripture proof , &c. page . that is together with the word , as ephes. . : is declared , by preaching of which the spirit was given , gal. ▪ . and this was presumed of all , as thes. . . . and elsewhere . and mr. b. truly saith in the same place , that it was all that were thus baptized into the body . but i subsume , infants were not thus baptized , ergo , no infants were then baptized , and consequently ought not to be now . . all that were thus baptized were also made to drink , or did drink themselves , or were drencht by their own act in the receiving the cup in the lords supper unto one spirit in communion and testification of one spirit , as cor. . , . but infants did not thus drink , ergo infants were not then baptized . . all that were counted members of the body of christ , or the church , were thus baptized , and made to drink . but infants were not thus baptized , and made to drink , for if so , they received the lords supper , therefore were not then visible church members , and consequently ought not to be so counted now . gal. . . for ye are all the children of god by faith in christ jesus . . for as many of you as have been baptized into christ have put on christ. where the apostle proving that they were all the children of god by faith in christ , because they had put on christ , must needs intimate that it was by faith in christ jesus that they had put on christ , and then the apostles speech is this , as many of you as have been baptized into christ have by faith in christ jesus put on christ , and consequently so many as were baptized were believers , and therefore no infants were baptized for want of faith . ephes. . , . there is one body and one spirit , even as ye are called in one hope of your calling , one lord , one faith , one baptism . whence i argue , . they that have one baptism , have also one faith ; but infants had not one faith ; ergo they had not one baptism , and consequently are not to have it now . . one faith is placed before one baptism , therefore faith went before baptism in the apostles daies , and consequently infants were not baptized . . they that were counted of one body had one faith ; but infants had not one faith , therefore they were not counted of one body , that is church-members , mr. bs. words p. . confirm this ephes. . . as the whole church is one body , and hath one lord , and one faith , so hath it one common baptism , eph. . . that he might sanctify it , cleansing it with the washing of water by the word , whence mr. b plain script . proof , p. . inferres , the whole church of christ must in duty be washed with water . now i argue , . they who were washed with water , were cleansed with the washing of water by the word , which word is the word preached , as where mention is made of baptism , there mention is made of preaching of the word going before it , and [ the word ] doth no where signifie the covenant or promise of god taken precisely or abstractively from the narration of christs comming and invitation to repentance , but altogether as it was preached , as may be seen in peters speech , acts . , , , &c. but infants were not cleansed by the word ; therefore they were not cleansed by the washing of water . . the whole church was cleansed with the washing of water by the word ; but so were not infants ; therefore they were not parts of the church , and consequently are not now . col. . . buried with him in baptism , wherein ye have also been raised together through the faith of the operation of god who hath raised him from the dead . whence i argue . they who were buried with christ in baptism were also therein raised together through faith , and consequently were believers ; but infants were not in baptism raised together through faith ; therefore they were not buried with christ in baptism , that is , they were not baptized , and by consequence ought not to be . tit. . . is usually expounded of baptism , as by mr. b. pag. , so by many others . but if the washing there be meant of baptism , it is such as was with regeneration and receiving of the holy ghost ; therfore not of infants whose regeneration and receiving was unknown . heb. . , . where the foundation is mentioned , this order is observed , first repentance , then faith , then baptism , then laying on of hands , then resurrection of the dead , and lastly eternal judgement , now if the apostle kept a right order here used in teaching , and according to the event of things ( as he seems to have done ) then repentance and faith went before baptism : and so no infants baptized . pet. . . the baptism that saves is accompanyed with the answer of a good conscience towards god. this saith beza in his annot . on that text alludes to the custome of stipulating or promising at baptism by the baptised : which if right ( as is probable ) then it is manifest that the baptized did answer at baptism , which infants could not , and therefore were not baptized . sect . vi. mr. blakes exception against the major , that such institution or example as i require for infant-baptism is unnecessary , is refelled . against these arguments ( chiefly the two first ) brought to prove that infants are not to be baptized , according to the institution matth. . . and the practise of the apostles ( besides what is alleged and refuted already ) many things are alleged . mr. blake vindic. foederis page . construes the objection , that infant-baptism wants an institution , as if the meaning were that it wants an institution with limit to infant age , and then talks thus at randum , this objection , if it have force in it , followed home , will overthrow all baptism at any age , and every other new testament ordinance whatsoever : for according to this rule a person must bring a precept for one of his age to be baptized . but this is m. blakes mistake of the objection ; for in it an institution is not required with limit to infant age , but such an institution as comprehends by any description ordinarily infant age . but then , saith he , upon the same account church-members in covenant of any age ought to be baptized , and so the institution is not in question ( about that there is an agreement ) but whether infants be in covenant , whether they be any church-members , is to be disputed , which already is satisfied . answ. it is false which he faith that there is an agreement about the institution , i deny that the institution is , baptize persons in covenant , except he mean persons in covenant by their own profession and promise , or that it is all one to baptize disciples and to baptize persons to whom god hath promised , or covenanted christ : for then the jews yet uncalled should be baptized , to whom gods covenant is , romans . . it is false also that upon the same account upon which the institution of baptism with limit to infancy is waved , church-members in covenant of any age ( in mr. blakes sense ) ought to be baptized , and that the question is only whether infants be in covenant , whether they be any members . he knows well that i yield that infants are in the covenant of grace , in respect of gods promise to as many of them as are elect , whether believers children or not , and that i grant that many of them are members of the invisible church ; yea he himself in his . chap. of vindic. foederis sect . . had disputed against my tenet , denying a connexion between the covenant and initial seal , and therefore this speech of his shews either his oscitancy , or his willingness to mislead . he then repeats his arguments in his birth privilege in the same words he then used to prove the institution to comprize infants , which were answered in my examen sect . . and my answer there vindicated in my postscript sect . , , . in answer to the chapter of mr. blakes answer to my letter . i will not here repeat what i then answered , but reply to what he excepts in his vindic. foederis pag. . where he doth not shew insufficiency in what i say apol. page . to answer his allegation of isaiah . . but saies he doubts not i abuse my memory . concerning which i yield it not unlikely my memory did fail me in that thing , of his alleging isaiah . . as an argument by it self . i hope this may satisfy mr. blake , and the reader , if he read the places in my writings here mentioned , may be satisfyed that it proves not any thing for mr. blakes purpose . likewise for what i answered in my postscript sect : . to his allegation of mat. . . & . . mark . . luke . , . he refers to mr. baxters book page . i shall refer the reader to my answer to mr. b. here . m. blake only adds , that the denyal that infants are within the verge of the commission , mat. . . involves the apostles and all that are imployed in their work in succession , in a contradiction . the nations are to be discipled : infants bear a part of the nation : and yet infants are in an incapacity wholly of it . see mr. cooks answer to the challenges of the anabaptists of stafford , pag. . i reply , mr. blakes words are so obscure ( as many of his speeches are ) that i understand not his meaning when he saith , the denyal that infants are within the verge of that commission matthew . . involves the apostles , and all that are imployed in their work in succession , in a contradiction , whether he mean thus , my denial involves the apostles in a contiadiction to their own sayings , or to christs words : either way understood , i discern not any truth or shew of truth in mr. blakes words . christs words are a command , and not an enunciation , and therefore there can be according to exact expression no contradiction to them ; and for any sayings of the apostles which should be involved in a contradiction by my denial , it is beyond any art of divination of mine to ghesse which and where they should be . and for his syllogism it is false , consisting of four terms , . the nations , . to be disciples , . infants , . bear a part of the nation . if it were good i might from the parallel place mark . . argue in the same manner , every creature is to have the gospel preached to it ; infants bear a part of every creature , therefore to infants the apostles were to preach the gospel . nor is there any contradiction in these two propositions , the nations are to be discipled , and yet infants are in an incapacity of it , no more than in these , god hath granted repentance to the nations , acts . . yet not to infants , all nations and all people are exhorted to praise god , rom. . . in him shall the nations trust , verse . yet not an infant meant . the speeches are so plain acts . . declaring the conversion of the nations , verse . god made choice among us , that the nations by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel and believe , verse . simeon hath declared how god at the first did visit the nations to take out of them a people for his name , verse . that the residue of men might seek after the lord , and all the nations upon whom my name is called , verse . wherefore my sentence is that we trouble not them which from among the nations are turned to god. acts . . as touching the nations ( for the word translated gentiles and nations is the same in all these places ) which believe , we have writen , and yet in no one of these places are infants meant under the term [ nations ] and when our lord christ expresseth what he said matthew . . disciple all nations , by the words preach the gospel to every creature , mark. . . as the comparing the texts shews , and interpreters confess ; i know not how to conceive with what spirit mr. blake is moved , who doth so often seek to impose his stale all egations so often and so plainly refuted . will any man conceive that christ bid them preach to infants , and yet his bidding them to disciple all nations is as much as to bid them go preach to all nations ? if men do swallow down such fancies , i can hardly judge but that they are willing to be deceived . in mr. cookes book in the place to which he refers me , i find no more then in mr. blakes , and therefore need give no other answer than what is given to him . but mr. blake addes . for that part of the objection , that there is no example in the new testament scripture of infant-baptism , i answer , first , for an example of baptism with limit to any one precise number of years or daies , we have but one that i know ( if that ) in scripture , and that is of christ , who was ( as is computed ) about the age of thirty when he was baptized , if this be prest and followed all must at that alone be for baptism , and no other of any age may be baptized . mr. t. had many years above thirty over his head , when i heard him say , that he was satisfyed , that though an infant ought not to be baptized , yet being baptized in infancy , when in years he did make profession of the gospel this was valid , which he spake in justification of his own baptism ; though now ( as errour is creeping ) of an antipaedobaptist he is grown up to an anabaptist , and is rebaptized , and in his praecursor glories in his shame of rebaptizing others . answ. the objection as by me framed doth not intimate a pleading the necessity of an example with limit to any one precise number of years or daies , as a rule to be followed in baptism , but rests in the institution and examples in the new testament as sufficient to direct whom to baptize , to wit disciples , repenting believers in christ by profession , whatever be their age , nor did mr. bl. ever hear me press christs age as the exact rule for the time in which christians should be baptized ; and therefore did not mr. bl. take occasion to vent his jerks and quips ( in which he is frequent ) he had forborn to recite my speech in that manner he doth . concerning which i do not think i did then expresse my self , to wit in the year . ( for sure it was in that year that i spake with m. blake now above nine years since ) in the very words he sets down ; i do rather conceive by the words in my exercit. pag. . composed about that time , that i spake more cautelously . but had i said it , it only shews i received light by degrees , as in all reformations it hath been . neither am i an anabaptist , nor do i rebaptize , and though i glory not in any thing of mine , yet count it not my shame , but my honour , that god hath used me as an instrument to reform the superstitious opinion and prophane practice of infant-baptism , or rather ( as now it is used ) sprinkling or perfusion , and do bless god with rejoicing , that amidst so many temptations , reproaches and other sufferings , my heart hath been obedient to christs command of being baptized , and baptizing , though to his own shame , he makes it my shame that i have done my duty in this particular . mr. blake adds . there are many things of which we make no question , and yet we have no example of them . i instanced in the tryal of the suspected wife by the water of jealousie , there is no example for it in all the old testament scripture ; and for womens receiving the lords supper , there is not a particular institution , or any particular precedent for it in the new testament : see further instances in mr. cooks treatise before mentioned , page . they cannot give us any instance of any one trayned up by believing parents for baptism , and assoon as he could give an account baptized , not one child of a believer brought up for covenant and not in covenant . answ. i may say also there are many things of which we make no question , and yet we have no example of them : it is enough if either precept or example approved could be brought of infant-baptism . of the tryal by the water of jealousie there was no need of example to direct , when the rule was so plain . mr. cooks instances are to no more purpose than mr. blakes , being brought against them who deny proof by consequence , which i do not . their need be no example brought according to my principles of a believers child catechized first and baptized after , it is enough to us that such a one is comprehended in the institution being a disciple , christ never requiring us to enquire whose children they are , but what is their faith and profession , and to baptize disciples and believers in him . if mr. blake mean [ by being brought up for covenant ] to be taught the knowledge of the true god , ishmael the child of a believer was brought up for covenant and not in covenant . of womens , who are christian believers or disciples , receiving the lords supper , my speech examen pag. . was right , there is institution and example of it in the new testament , and this is justified in my postscript s. . but mr. blake hath a fling at my instances , though his fellow paedobaptists count them very plain , he is minded it seems to be ad oppositum to me in all i say in this argument . the particular command for womens receiving the lords supper i said was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cor. . . let a man examine himself , and so let him eate , this saies mr. coleman is as cleer for women as men ; but then , saith mr. blake john . . is moses his command , the jewes practice with christs approbation , in the same comprehensive latitude in regard of both sexes , as in saint paul for receiving the sacrament of the lords supper . i answered , true , if the subject matter did not limit the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the male john . . it being a relation of the jews practice , which was only to circumcise the male , which it doth not cor. . . but then saith mr. blake , my express formal command is lost , they are not expressed but included only , and by consequence , which will not be denied either to mr. coleman , or mr. blake . answ. this is enough for me which he grants , that women are included in that precept cor. . . though by consequence only , for then there is institution in the new testament for their receiving the lords supper , and therefore this objection of mr. blake and others against my requiring either precept or example of infant-baptism in the new testament in express terms or by good consequence , by requiring me to shew a like precept or example for womens receiving the lords supper , is answered by his own grant , that there is such a precept for womens receiving the lords supper , as i deny to be for infant-baptism . yet i still say it is more than by consequence , even an express precept in formal terms for womens receiving the lords supper , which is cor. . . for i take that to be an express command in formal terms , which is in the imperative mood , and in a word that according to grammar construction comprehends both men and women , there being no circumstance restraining it to the male . and in this sense mr. m. saith truly in his sermon pag. . express command there is that they should teach the heathen and the jews , and make them disciples , and then baptize them , though jews are only comprized under the general term [ all nations . ] mr. blake goes on . he further saith , that cor. . . is an express example in formal terms of womens receiving the lords supper ; we being many are one bread and one body , for we are partakers of one bread . i demand of mr. t. whether the apostle speaks in the person of christians or in the person of women ? not of women sure , for he takes in himself , and he was a man , and then the formality of an express example falls . when it is said that the whole house of israel is circumcised in the flesh , mr. t : will not yield that there is a proof , not by any consequence , that women , though of the house of israel were virtually circumcised : but all partaking of one bread , there is a proof formal and express that they were at the lords supper . answ. an expresse formal example is mentioned cor. . . of womens receiving the lords supper , there being relation of partaking the bread in the indicative mood , and the term [ we all ] according to grammar construction the matter not excluding them comprehending women as well as men . for the apostle under [ all we ] expresly comprehends all the many that were one bread and one body , who are all christians both jewes and gentiles , cor. . . mr. blakes demand makes a disjunction of members coincident , which is illogical ; however to it as it is i say the apostle speaks in his own person , not in anothers , yet he speaks of the persons of all christians both men and women , and he takes in as expresly the women as the men , and the formality of the example is of one as well as the other . as for the other passage alleged by mr. blake the predicate [ circumcised in the flesh ] being necessarily understood of actual circumcision , there is a necessity to understand the subject [ the whole house of israel ] synecdochically , else the speech would not be true . but tropes are not to be made but where there is a necessity to make good the speech , or to make it agree with the scope , circumstances and other expressions : of which there is no necessity cor. . . to verify the speech of the apostle , but that it is true of women as well as men , and must be so understood without a trope , and therefore there the speech is to be expounded according to the plain grammatical meaning as expressed formally without the like trope . mr. blake saith of me . he brings acts . . that the disciples on the first day of the week came together to break bread . here is an example as express and formal . mr. t. cannot infallibly prove by help of consequence much less expressly that there was a woman there . at that night meeting there might be none but men , as at the first institution . it can never be an express example till it be made appear that none are disciples but women . answ. i had thought when it is said , it is appointed unto men once to dy , heb. . . death passed upon all men , in that all have sinned , rom. . . it had been express and formal for womens and infants dying though there be other men than women and infants , and yet in both places [ men ] in greek is in the masculine gender , [ disciples ] in the acts note all christians acts . . tabitha is named a disciple acts . . and therefore there being no reason to make a trope acts . . in the word [ disciples ] christian women as well as men are comprehended . and by breaking bread , say the assembly at westminster answer to the reasons of the dissenting brethren page . sacramental breaking of bread is understood generally by all , acts . . the like is said by chamier panst. cathol . tom . . l. . c. . s. . and it is confirmed , . from the text , the words importing that the breaking of bread is there meant which was the end of their customary meeting on the lords day ; but this was sacramental , ergo. . from cor. . , . where the lords supper is called breaking bread as the usual known term among christians . this seems to me infallible proof , that women were there , or which is to my purpose , that usually they did meet with other disciples to break break . as for what mr. bl. addes , that if i had the texts in hand of a whole houshold baptized , they would be sufficiently formal for infant-baptism , i tell him no : for i could not have withstood the clear light to the contrary , from the words acts . & . and elsewhere , which limit the whole house to persons that did hear the word , believe , receive , fear god , &c. ampsing . dialog . contra anabap. page . idem quoque vobis responsum volumus ad loca illa , act. . . cor. . . tit. . . ubi quaedam de totis familiis enunciantur , quae non nisi de adultis accipi possunt . it is false that the commission matthew . . is to baptize nations , but disciples in or out of nations , as is proved above . providence hath not ordered that nations including infants have been brought into the church as christ appointed , to wit by preaching the gospel : but the national churches are gathered ( otherwise than christ appointed ) by human laws and infant-baptism . i value as much the churches practice as ever , but it is false that in no controverted thing the church is found so unanimous as in this of infant-baptism . it is more unanimous about episcopacy prelatical , use of the sign of the cross , and many other things , as may be seen in mr. sprint of conformity pag. . &c. i shall in convenient time i hope shew the mistakes of paedobaptists plea for infant-baptism from antiquity . the other speech of mr. blake , that which will speak for infants to receive them into heaven , will speak also to receive them into the church by baptism , is not true . for election , the covenant of grace , a secret work of an initial , habitual , seminal or actual holiness or faith , being supposed , may speak to receive them into heaven , yet not to baptism , nor doth it follow that if want of faith exclude them from baptism , then by the text mark . . the same want of faith excludes from salvation . for ( as i answer in my praecursor s. . ) a want of faith dogmatical excludes from baptism , and yet excludes not infants from salvation . sect . vii . mr. ms. exceptions , that matthew . . is not the institution of baptism , that onely disciples are not appointed to be baptized , that this was a rule only for a church to be constituted , are refelled . there are many other exceptions against the argument from the institution matth. . . to be considered . mr. m. in his sermon page . saith , . that of matth . . is not the institution of baptism . . it was instituted long before to be the seal of the covenant . . it s only an inlargement of their commission . to which in my examen i said , . if this be not the first institution , yet it is an institution , and the institution of baptism to us gentiles , and therefore the rule by which ministers are to baptize , there being no other institution that i know of to regulate our practice by , but such as is gathered from john baptist , the apostles , and some preachers in the acts of the apostles , their practice and sayings . . by requiring him to shew another institution , else paedobaptism cannot be acquitted from will-worship . to this m. m. defence page . having referred me to part . s. . where he saith , all this is abundantly answered , saith , this inlargement of their commission is very un●itly called by me an institution of baptism to us , their commission at the same time was inlarged to preach to the gentiles , will you call that an institution of preaching ? and that the method of preaching to us gentiles must be fetch out of this place ? i know you will not . refut . . by institution i conceive is meant no other than commanding , ordaining , appointing , and i find the words used as equipollent so promiscuously in the assemblies confession of faith chap. ▪ , . in the larger and shorter catechism , in the directory about baptism , that sure mr. m. was either very forgetful of what past in the assembly , or very much disposed to cavil when he excepted against my speech as un fit , in calling mat. . . the institution of baptism . the assembly confess of faith ch . . art . . call it the word of institution , chap. . art . . allegeth no other text to prove the ordaining and appointment of baptism by christ , but mat. . , . mr. b. calls it page . the solemn institution of baptism , yea in the disputes with papists and others about the author , minister , form , use of baptism , it is so common a thing to call this the institution of baptism , yea the regulating institution , the words therein are called the words of institution even in the directory , that i admire mr. m. should put in this exception had he not a mind to wrangle or to find a knot in a bulrush . i will recite chamiers words , panstr . cath. tom . . l. . c. . s. . dico hanc ipsam formam baptizandi in nomine patris & filii & spiritus sancti & solam esse & optimam constare ex evangelio : ubi nimirum institutionis est descriptio . nam quis ignor at quaecunque instituuntur à christo non tantum optimè institui , sed etiam sic , ut non debeant aliter . but he tells me he knows i will not call that matthew . . an institution of preaching , nor affirm that the method of preaching is to be fetcht out of this place . to which i reply , he is deceived , i do call it an institution of preaching , and therein follow his collegue mr. rutherford due right of presbyteries pag. . that which we allege is an institution for preaching and baptizing , matthew . , . and before him pareus in his comment . who intitles this part of the chapter , institutio ministerii , and from hence with the generality of divines fetch the method of preaching . but saith he , this was only an inlargement of their commission . answ. i find that the apostles had commission to preach , mat. . . and that they did baptize , john . . which i doubt not they had commission for : but be it so , yet however mat. . . they had their commission inlarged in the extent of the persons to whom they were to preach and baptize , and this commission is an institution of those works : so that frivolously it is denyed to be an institution because it was an inlarged commission , when the enlarged commission was all one with a renewed institution , and must needs be a rule about preaching to , and baptizing of gentiles , and therefore the institution of baptism to them . but it was instituted long before to be a seal of the covenant . answ. i deny not but john baptist was appointed to baptize by god mat. . . john . . and the apostles by christ : but where there is any institution of baptism so expressed as to regulate our practise afore that mat. . . i find not , and therefore know no solemn institution by which we are to be guided in the use of it afore this . but it was long before instituted to be the seal of the covenant : for this he refers us to that which he had said before . answ. what ambiguity , uncertainty , and falsity there is in paedobaptists speeches about the covenant , being in covenant , seal of the covenant , connexion between the covenant and seal , will be shewed in that which followes . for present i know no place assigned by mr. m. in his defence part . : s. . wherein he shews that baptism was institu●ed long before the time of the speech mat. . . to be the seal of the covenant . i have read over that section , and do aver that i find it so empty of any either proofs or answers to my examer , that his words in my apprehension are meer trifling . if it be thought i wrong a man of such repute , let any man shew me a word in all that section ( in which he saith he hath answered all this abundantly ) in answer to what i say that matthew . is the institution of baptism to us gentiles , and the rule by which ministers are to baptize , and that there is no other institution , and i will forfeit my credit . he neither in all that section , nor elsewhere , that i know , shews either any other or foregoing institution of baptism to us gentiles , or any other but this with john baptists , the apostles , and some forenamed their practice and sayings for a rule of baptizing : onely p. . he dictates thus . sir , since it is apparent that here is no new commission for any new method in their work , but only an enlargement of their commission to apply their ministery to new persons , how could they understand our saviours meaning to proceed any other way to the gentiles than among the jews ? &c. but to whom is it apparent ? and when , either sleeping or waking ? where is the old commission that we must understand this by , so as to proceed the way to the gentiles that was taken among the jewes ? is it the commission of circumcising gen. ? if that be it , then baptism is not a sacrament of the new testament onely but of the old , then it is not a new administration , then the commission of baptizing is to any parent , though no minister , to baptize , then it must be done the eighth day , to males only ; were christs words thus to be understood they had been a meer riddle : where or whence it is apparent that ever the apostles conceived that in executing the commission mat. . . they were to proceed according to the commission about circumcising ? i have shewed examen part . ▪ sect . . that it rather follows to the contrary that they did and were to proceed clean otherwise . and therefore that the apostles should understand the institution mat. . . by the institution of circumcision gen. . is so wild a conceit , that i cannot impu●e it to any thing but meer dotage in the assertor , there being no one word in the commission or the executing of it throughout the acts of the apostles that doth shew that christ had reference to it , or the apostles so understood him . yea if that of circumcision gent. . be an institution of baptism , by like reason that of the passeover exod. . must be an institution of the lords supper , and then the lords supper should be instituted afore the night in which christ was betrayed , and the lords supper should be from moses , and regulated by the ordinances of the ceremoni●l law &c. if mr. m. mean by the foregoing institutution the manner of the jewish doctors in baptizing proselytes children with the parents , it shall be shewed hereafter , especially in answer to dr. hammond , that there is nothing therein for infant-baptism now , it being done to no jewes or their infants many ages before christs incarnation , and therefore not out of respect to the covenant gen. . nor as a privilege from thence , but meerly as a rite to purge them from the uncleanness of gentilism , nor ever done to the infant posterity of the proselytes of righteousness after the first time of being made proselytes , nor ever used to proselytes of the gate . and yet had the use been such as that infants of proselytes after their first en●rance on the jewish profession had been baptized , yet there is no commission in scripture for it , though rabbins would fetch it , some from gen. . . some from exod. . . some from the flood , nor is there any thing in the institution of christ , or acts and sayings of the apostles , that shews that christian baptism was conformed to the jewish baptism in this , and therefore i conclude , that there is no other institution besides mat. . . mark . , . together with the apostles , john baptists , and others forenamed sayings and practice , that is a rule to us about baptizing , and if infant-baptism be not here appointed , it is besides the institution , and so irregular . but mr. m. allegeth further , that it is not said that only disciples are to be baptized . to which i replyed examen page . it is not said cor. . . let him only eat that can examine himself , nor here only preachers in office are to baptize , nor only two to be one flesh , nor let only wine be drunk in the euchurist , or water used in baptism , yet divines make these speeches exclusive . m. ball of the covenant par . . c. . p. . when difference or distinction is contained in some term , the proposition is for sense exclusive no less than if it were expressly noted . against this mr. m. excepts defence pag. . that the practice and example of christ and john is sufficient to make a positive rule affirmative but not exclusive , and the reason is plain , they possibly might not meet with all persons and occasions , as though no proselyte of the gate were baptized till acts . nor any till they made actual confession of their faith and repentance , nor any rule given that the receiving the extraordinary gifts of the holy ghost should without any other confession be a sufficient warrant to baptize any , yet peter upon the very pouring out of those gifts , without requiring any further confession either of faith or repentance , baptized cornelius and all his company . ref. . m. ms. confessions are to be noted , that none till they made actual confession of their faith and repentance were baptized till acts . nor any rule given that the receiving the extraordinary gifts of the holy ghost should without any other confession be a sufficient warant to baptize any , which do grant that till then there was neither rule nor practice of baptising any without actual confession of their faith and repentance , which is in effect a grant of the minor , in my argument , denying any institution or practice in the new testament of infant-baptism , for there is no other rule or practice of infant-baptism after acts . otherwise than that before . . it is to be observed , that mr. m. deals not rightly with me in that he makes me to have framed the exclusive rule from practice , whereas i joined institution with practice , and shewed neither to be for infant-baptism . . if the non-including of persons or things in the institution or practise of baptism be not exclusive , then the institution is not our rule , then there is no will-worship , or it is no sin to swerve from it , we may add to gods worship infant-communion , and innumerable other things rejected may be lawful , then do preachers , especially mr. m. unjustly urge the parliament , and others , to reform invented ceremonies , and protestants contend against popish rites in baptism , mass , &c. . however mr. m. conceive , yet men abler than mr. m. do frequently assert negative arguments from institution . i will name one who hath few fellowes , chamier panst. cath . in the words lately by me here recited , and tom . . l. . c. . s. . haec testimonia sunt institutionis : quae etsi non prohibent toridem verbis alios liquores : tamen eo ipso quod non ponat excludit . l. . c. . s. . quamquam in hoc genere rerum quae nihil sunt nisi ex institutione validissimam esse aportet argumentationem negativam si inde sumatur . but mr. m. saith , john the baptist and the apostles might not meet with all persons and occasions . answ. t is true , they baptized no emperours or kings , because none were converted , yet they had a rule to baptize them if disciples : but this could not be the reason of their not baptizing infants , sith innumerable believers had infants in the times of the gospel story , and acts of the apostles , and yet no mention of baptizingany . do not mr. m. and other paedobaptists plead that the little children brought to christ were infants of believers , and yet there 's not a word of their being baptized ? as for mr. ms. instance to prove no necessity of practice to warrant infant-baptism , though i grant if there were institution without practice it were enough , yet is it not rightly brought . it supposeth peter baptized cornelius and his houshold upon the very powring out of extraordinary gifts , without actual faith and repentance required ; and i grant he required them not : but yet withal it is manifest he did not baptize meerly upon the powring out of extraordinary gifts without them . for the text acts . , . expresly saith , they magnified god , ere he spake of their baptizing , and acts . . that they had the like gift as themselves who believed on the lord jesus , and they gathered thence that the gentiles had repentance unto life granted by god. but it is objected by mr. cobbet , just vindic. part . cha . . sect . . that mark . . none but true believers are meant , then if the term be exclusive none but such are to be baptized . . that those believers had signs following them , verse . answ. the rule is , disciples by profession are to be baptized , to which is equipollent [ believers by profession ] i say not that believers only who are such as those mark . . are to be baptized by us : but yet comparing mark . , . with mat. . . i gather that a disciple and believer are terms equipollent , and so it helps me to understand the term [ disciple ] as answerable to the term [ believer ] and though by reason of the matter predicated mark . . the believer there is only a true believer , yet the term often is given to believers only by profession , and we find such warrantably baptized , and that is enough for our direction : though we are to require more , yet we are not to forbear baptism till we know there is more . we acknowledge only true believers have right before god to baptism : but in the face of the church believers by profession have right to baptism , and are to be taken by us for true believers upon their profession , till they be discovered to be otherwise . as for verse . it doth not say these or some of these signs shall follow every of them that believe : but they are true if they followed some of them that believe , sith the terms being indefinite in matter contingent , the proposition is true if onely particular . indefinita propositio in materia contingenti aequipollet particulari , say logicians . but there is an objection ad hominem against my self , that i have said that if i knew an infant were actually sanctified , &c. i would baptize him , if so , then an infant is not excluded out of the institution . answ. i grant that an infant barely as an infant is not excluded out of the institution , but as ordinarily not known to be a disciple or believer . if an infant were known to be a disciple or believer , i would baptize him , as i would one who having his tongue cut out who is known to be a believer otherwaies . but then i have added that this would be upon extraordinary manifestation onely , and so not according to ordinary rule , and therefore justifies onely that extraordinary fact , not the ordinary practice of infant-baptism , which hath no rule ordinary or extraordinary . but then saith mr. m. page . shew us your extraordinary ●ule . answ. when i do thus , or challenge this , i shall : in the mean time it is enough that my concession doth not infringe my argument against baptizing infants ordinarily without ordinary rule . mr. m. hath yet another exception in his sermon , page . that no other are mentioned to be baptized but disciples , or believers , because a new church was to be constituted , and then all were to be baptized upon profession of faith , after the children came in by their right by vertue of the covenant . ref. . when i come to examine mr. ms. conclusions i shall shew , that there is no such covenant as to give right to believers infants to be baptized ; yea that title to the covenant did not give right to circumcision , and therefore this is a vain pretence . . he assigns that for a reason why no other were baptized , which was not a reason : for in the jewish church which was already constituted , and which christ did join himself to , and to whose children they say did belong the covenant , yet while other were baptized all the time of john and christs ministery on earth , no one infant was appointed to be baptized , no not those infants mark . which christ blessed , and which were ( if paedobaptists say true ) believers infants in covenant . . it is a vain pretence , that there is no mention of baptized infants ; because they had no right till their parents were converted : for neither when they were converted is there any mention of the infants baptism . . the institution mat. . . expounded by the practice of john baptist &c. is the standing rule for churches at first planting , and after increasings , nor can any other rule be produced distinct from this , and therefore neither at first conversion , nor after settlement of churches , are any to be baptized according to ordinary rule till they be disciples of christ , or believers by profession . sect . viii . the exceptions of mr. cobbet , mr. blake , &c. against the order of teaching afore baptizing , of mr. m. mr. hussey , that baptizing is discipling , are refelled . against the argument from the order of teaching first and then baptizing , it was excepted that it is said mark . . john did baptize and preach , which objection in my examen was removed by the words of beza par . . s. . to which i add , that the reason is manifest from the text why the one was put after the other , not because he did baptize any afore he had preached , but because mark having expressed his baptism , it was needfulhe should shew the difference between johns baptism and the jewish or phasaical baptism . to this mr. m. returns thus much . christs order is ( say you ) teaching should go before baptizing ; is not that the same with this ; that men must be made disciples by preaching before they be baptized ? to which i only say , . that the arguments are not the same as i made them , the first being taken from the term [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 them ] the other from the order of teaching afore baptizing . . however i take that which mr. m. grants , that it is the same to teach , and to make disciples by preaching before baptizing . but mr. cobbet just vindic . part . ch . . sect . : allegeth something against this argument . he grants some things in this order of christ are perpetual , but he will not have all to be presidentiall to all churches and times , because it is said mar. . . in the same speech , that miraculous signs should follow them that believe . but if this were good , then the rule should only hold while such gifts remain , which no churches now have , and so he must fall into the opinion that makes water-baptism a temporary ordinance , and those things which he grants perpetual , as viz. preaching the gospel before baptism is to be administred by such as preach , discipled inchurched persons are to be baptized , that in founding churches the first members are to be visible professors of the faith in reference to church estate , that baptism is with water applyed to the persons baptized , and that into the name of the father , son and holy ghost , must be temporary as well as teaching before baptizing : if the one be perpetual notwithstanding this reason so is the other , and presidential to all churches and times . but saith mr. cobbet , there is a distinction to be made in baptizing at the gathering of churches , and when they are gathered : the order must be observed at the former , not the later . answ. . if it was to be so at first gathering of churches , why did not those in new england observe it then when they first gathered their churches ? surely they were not rightly gathered for want of baptism if this be the rule at gathering of churches . nor can they plead their baptism they had in the national and parochial churches of england ; for by their principles , baptism belongs to the children of believers , not as such , but as in church-covenant , and church-members , and therefore they baptize not any but the children of church-members in covenant , and yet most of them had their baptism in the churches of england , and their parents no church-members and so neither they nor others that gather churches in old england do keep to their principles in the gathering of their churches . . but besides what i said before to this objection , mat. . . there is no such distinction made , and we are not to distinguish where the law doth not , yea all the institution , and every thing in it was to be observed in the churches of christ in gathering and gathered at all times , as is manifest from the promise annexed of being with them alwaies to the end of the world , which shewes that he would have that rule continued to the end of the world , and to encourage them therein he promiseth to be with them . to say with mr. s●ltmarsh in his sparkles of glory and some others , it is to be read [ to the end of the age ] is frivolous , sith matthew . ▪ , . matth. . . the very words shew it to be meant of the last time at christs comming to judgement . but ( saith mr. cobbet ) the commission james . . to an●oint with oil , is not perpetual . be it so , that that appointment of the sign of a gift of miraculous cure now ceaseth , yet it doth not follow that the institution mat. . . in which a sign of a perpetual duty is institu●ed , is temporary . but saith mr. cobbet , there are variations in the mention of christs last commission about the lords supper , and therefore another analogy of faith and comparing scriptures with scriptures is to regulate us in this point of sacramental order , and so in the other . to which i answer , . that the variations mr. cobbet sets down are none of them about the order of the actions appointed by christ pertaining to the sacrament of the lords supper , and therefore not pertinent to the presen : business . . if mr. cobbet will not have the order in the institution to be moral and perpetual about the lords supper , then they do ill in his judgement that contend against papists , prelates and others to have the lords supper reduced exactly to the first pattern as a constant rule , there being such variations as disable it from being a rule . . i grant that analogy of faith and comparing scriptures with scriptures is to regulate us in this point of sacramental order : but till mr. cobbet shew that in any other scripture or analogy of faith there is a rule that persons should be baptized afore they be taught , his reasoning is , not to the present purpose . but then saith he , if order must be observed so strictly , baptizing must go before salvation , mark . . repentance may be before faith , mark . . confession before faith , romans . . if the place in mark must be so closely stuck to without comparing it with the scriptures of the old testament , then we must preach the gospel to dogs , cats , &c. since it is expresly said preach the gospel to every creature . answ. . that if it follow not that every thing set before is first in order of time or nature , yet what is first appointed to be done in the solemn institution of sacraments , is to be done first , as taking , blessing , breaking bread , before eating , so teaching the baptized afore baptizing as the apostles practice shews , who best understood christs appointment . as believing upon preaching is to go before salvation , so baptizing ordinarily and regularly ( for which i now contend ) and yet in special cases as persons may be saved without personal actual believing upon preaching , so without baptism . to avoid the inference of preaching to beasts , we need not go to the old testament mat. . . ●ol . . . &c. yield sufficient light to shew , that by [ every creature ] is meant all nations of men , or gentiles , as well as jews . but ( saith mr. cobbet ) if it be absurd to say the gospel is preached to little ones , what shall we say of christs speech mat. . . deut. . . acts . , . luke . ? i answer , this may be said , that all these are frivolously alleged to prove that christ should appoint the gospel to be preached to infants ( which were to make christ as ridiculous as the legends do francis the fryer ) sith none of them mention any speech or preaching to little infants , though some of the speeches are of or concerning infants . as for what he further adds , it was no absurdity that infants were circumcised , christ laid his hands on infants , peters feet were washed , though these acts were not then understood . i grant it , and say , if christ appointed infants to be baptized , i should not count it an absurdity , but sith his express institution is , that teaching should go before baptizing , till that order be shewed to be alte●ed , it is a prophane abuse of the ordinance of baptism to baptize those who are not taught . mr. blake vindic. foederis page . speaks thus , this is the weakest of all arguments , to reason for a precedency of one before another from the order in which they are placed in scripture , so we may say john baptized before he preached the baptism of repentance , for his baptizing is mentioned before preaching of baptism mark . . so we may say we must have glory first and vertue after , for so they are placed by the apostle , peter . . answ. though in histories of facts sometimes things are s●t down last which were done first , yet in setting down institutions , order and every circumstance is observed , so as thence to conclude it irregular not to observe the order used in the primitive institution , cor. . . the cup of blessing is mentioned before the bread we break , and yet it would be counted a disorder and sinful to administer the wine before the bread , because in the mention of the institution the three evangelists and paul observe exactly the order as well as the use of the elements , as delivered by the lord. in like manner when christ appoints , and the constant practice of the apostles expounds his words thus , that first persons be made disciples and believers , and then be baptized , sure it is an act of transgression of christs command to do it otherwise , especially considering that by so doing the prime and chief end of baptism , to wit , to signify the baptized persons engagement to repentance and faith in christ , is thereby evacuated . mr. blake●aith ●aith vindic. foederis pag. . god is a god of order , and he will have order observed , & p. god will not suffer that disorder that the leading sacrament should come after . i may more truly say , god will not suffer the disorder of mr. bl. to have baptism go before and faith follow , when by necessity of precept , as he speaks there , christ having instituted it and commanded it , discipleship and believing are put before baptism mat. . . mark . , . and the apostles so taught and practised acts . . . & . . & , . & . . & . , , . & . . glory is put before vertue peter . . without disorder , if either the meaning be as heinsius in his preface to his aristarchus sacer on nonnus conceives , he hath called us by his glorious power , or if the ordinary reading be retained , though vertue be before glory , yet we are called to glory first as the end , and then to vertue as the means , the end being first in intention , though last in execution . there is another exception which i counted in my examen p. . a very absurd one , and such as i presumed none that had any wit would entertain it , to wit that making disciples matth. . . is to be by baptizing them , and yet mr. m. in his defence pag. . goes about to maintain that the jewes children were discipled when circumcised , & pag. . that baptizing may be well rendred discipling , and allegeth spanheimius for it . mr. hussey vents it as very remarkable and advantagious to prove infant-baptism . but against this toy i argued in my examen page . . . no lexicon , nor i thought expositor do expound [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make disciples ] that is circumcise or baptize them . . that the word plainly signifies so to teach as that the persons taught do learn and accordingly professe the things taught . to this mr. m. replies , . that better criticks than my self say that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a rabbinick phrase , and from their use of it it is best to be understood , and that with them it signifies to admit scholars , not because they were taught , but that they might be taught . answ. but mr. m. neither names the criticks , no● brings proof for what they say , nor if it were all granted would serve his purpose to prove that ever [ disciple ye ] is as much as [ circumcise ye , baptize ye ] i grant there is great use to be made of the talmuds and rabbins in expounding many passages in the new testament , but in expounding this term there is no need of using them , when the use of it in other places , and comparing it with other scriptures are sufficient to cleer it , yet if mr. ms. criticks look over all the talmuds and rabbins i presume they will not find one passage wherein the making of a disciple or admitting of a scholar was ever applyed to an infant . and though mr. hussey ridiculously tell us of taking children to school , and counting them for scholars , who carry a hornbook to school , though they be put there only to play and keep them from harm , yet neither do any so admit as scholars infants of a day or eight days old , nor is [ a scholar ] all one with [ a disciple ] the latter word being from learning , the other from vacation from other imployment that he may learn , nor is making a disciple all one with admitting a scholar . rightly saith becman : exercit. th●ol . . pag. ● . verbum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( quod omnes libenter admittunt ) ex nativa origine est discipulos facere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . atqui hoc ipsum non nisi accedente doctrina fit . qui enim discit tanquam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ab alio ●x ra●ione 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dicitur itaque discipuli sunt qui docentur & discunt . pag. . nec ulli discipuli sunt nisi qui docentur . dum igitur christus apostolos jubet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ante omnia & quidem de necessitate jubet docere . but . mr. m. refers me with a blind direction to spanheimius to consult with , which however i have done , as i find his words dub. evang. part . . dub . . and i say as in my apology page . besides the mention of his words there need no other refutation . for . it is false , that [ to make disciples ] signifies the end of their sending , and not the act they were to do , whereas it plainly notes the first act they were to do : and if it had been the end of the act of baptizing and teaching , it should have been thus [ baptize and teach them all things , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that ye may make all nations disciples . ] . spanheimius there makes [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make disciples ] to answer to [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he maketh disciples , john . . ] but there it is another thing than baptizing , for making disciples and baptizing are knit together as two distinct things , and the making disciples there was by preaching , as the story of the evangelist shews , therefore making disciples matthew . . is by preaching , and is not barely baptizing . . his own words do refute the reason of his analysis . for he allegeth this reason , because if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should simply signify only to teach , there would be found a tautology in christs words thus ; go teach all nations , baptizing them , teaching them . but this absurdity is not avoided by his own exposition . for he himself saith , non significat solum docere , sed & discipulos facere , now if it signifie at all to teach the tautology is alike , if we say , go , not only teach , but also make disciples baptizing them , teaching them , for by his own words teaching is twice commanded . nevertheless in my exposition ( commonly received ) there is no tautology , go , make by teaching or preaching the gospel ( that jesus is the christ ) disciples , so as that they learn him to be the messias , and profess him , as mr. m. expounds john . . will ye be his disciples ? and then baptize them , and after teach them to observe all that i have commanded . so that here is a double teaching injoined , one to preach or teach them the gospel , that jesus is the christ , as philip did the eunuch , acts . , . and then baptize , and then teach duties commanded by christ. and for what spanheimus saith , that this may in its manner be ●i●ted to infants . for when parents do give their names to christ for themselves and their families , their whole house is discipled , their children as well as themselves , it is false . for then if a parent give his name to christ for himself and his family , and the whole house is discipled , thereby it will follow , that the wife , child , servant , though infidels , are discipled , and so in fidels should be christs disciples . but no where is in scripture any made a disciple but by his own act of learning . as for what mr. m. adds to shew that without teaching first , by initiating into a master a person may become a disciple , it is insufficient to that end . for cor. . . though all our fathers be said to be baptized into moses , yet not to be discipled , and the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was discipled , matth. . . doth not note a bare entring into christs school without teaching or hearing of christ , much less such an initiating as they give to infants without any act of their own , and john . . mr. m. himself paraphaseth thus , will ye be his disciples , will ye profess him ? which is an act of their own , of which infants are not ordinarily capable , and it supposeth some teaching and learning , at least this , that jesus is the christ. . i argued from mark . . to which our translators refer in the margin at matthew . . as cleering the meaning of it , and generally interpreters shew thence how they were appointed to make disciples , to wit , by preaching the gospel , and so mr. m. sermon page . express command there is that they should teach the heathen and the jews , and make them disciples , and then baptize them , and defence page . their commission was to preach and baptize , and hereupon from matth. . . is gathered , that none are to baptize but preachers . whence i argue , if the making disciples were to be by preaching the gospel to them who were made disciples , then by making disciples is not meant baptizing , nor baptizing to be rendered discipling , for baptizing and preaching the gospel are not all one ; but the making disciples is appointed to be and was by preaching the gospel to them who were made disciples ; ergo discipling is not by baptizing . . i argued from john . . in which it is confessed by the new annot. edit . . on mat. . . [ made disciples and baptized ] answer to [ make disciples baptizing them mat. . . ] now john . . making disciples is one thing , and baptizing is another thing , though coupled with it ; therefore the making disciples is not baptizing , but a distinct thing . . the commission of christ is to be understood according to the apostles practice , unless we will say that either they understood not , or followed not christs appointment ; but their practice was to make disciples first by preaching , and then to baptize , and no other mentioned , as mr. m. grants in his sermon page . ergo. i truly said , nor need mr. m. wonder at it , or call it a wild consequence , as he doth defence page . that if the apostles had understood christs commission as mr. m. doth , baptize according to the rule of circumcising , they might have saved a great deal of labour in preaching to the baptized afore they baptized them , and in baptizing females , sith the rule of circumcising did not require either . and though i grant it to be true , that male and female are all one , yet in the rule of circumcising a difference is made , and if that be the rule of baptizing infants , then in baptizing them male infants should be baptized and not female . . if making disciples be by baptizing without preaching before to the baptized , then non-preaching ministers may and do baptize rightly though they preach not the gospel ; but this i suppose will be denyed by mr. m. ergo. . if making disciples be by baptizing without preaching to them , then the spaniards in america who drove the indians into the water to be baptized , without teaching them or preaching the gospel to them , did rightly , for they followed christs rule thus expounded ; but that is absurd ; ergo. . mr. m. and other paedobaptists say that the commission mat. . . was the commission for first constituting the churches of the gentiles : if then the cōmission be to be understood , make ye disciples by baptizing them , without first preaching to them , then he had appointed them to constitute or plant the first churches without preaching , and then the apostles gifts of tongues &c. were unnecessary , they might have constituted churches by hands , baptizing them only without the use of those gifts ; but these things are absurd , besides other absurd consequences which follow on the exposition that discipling is baptizing , or baptizing discipling , mat. . . lastly many of their own grants and expositions before recited do so cross this conceit , that as i said before , i thought none that had any wit would embrace it , so now i wonder that such men as have taken it up did not better make use of their wit , to decline so witlesse a shift . onely i perceive any thing will erve turn to keep up the credit of infant sprinkling . sect . ix . the exception of mr. m. mr. blake , mr. cobbet , nations are appointed to be baptized matthew . . and so infants , is refelled . but there is yet another exception against my argument from matthew . . followed by many , that christ bids them make nations disciples and baptize nations , & consequently infants at least the species . against this i opposed , that all nations simply are not appointed to be baptized , but disciples of all nations . so beza annot . on matthew . . make to me disciples out of all nations . the new annotations on the bible on matth. . . first edition , teach ] gr. make disciples of , as john . . all nations , not jews alone but gentiles also , acts . , , . mr. baxter plain scripture proof &c. pag. . when christ saith [ make me disciples of all nations baptizing them ] he means [ sincere disciples ] georg. pasor lexic . ad verbum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 matthew . verse . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , docete omnes gentes , h. ● . colligite mihi discipulos ex omnibus gentibus . mr. blake himself saith , answer to my letter ch . . sect . . he is ready to subscribe to this interpretation as i lay it down in words by preaching the gospel to all nations make them disciples , and baptize those that do become disciples of all nations . as for his exceptions , that the verb is transitive , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nations is in the accusative case , that it is boldness to put it into the genitive , that then the whole of the nation should not be appointed to be baptized , and so not infants , i have answered them in my postscript sect . . and i further prove that the nation entirely is not appointed to be baptized . . for then the infidels of the nation should be to be baptized , for they are a part of the nation . . then the apostles were not to baptize regularly till they baptized a whole nation , yea all nations together , for so it is construed by them who make nations entirely the subject of baptism according to christs institution . . the apostles practice is an infallible comment on our lord christs words . as they practised , so christ meant ; but they baptized not any entire nation , countrey , city , or tribe , but believers or disciples out of them ; therefore no other were appointed to be baptized . . if the baptizing of all the parts of a nation , or a nation entirely , were appointed by christ , then there might be some rule to know when a nation is discipled , chosen , so as that it ought to be entirely baptized ; but there is no such rule , ergo. to none of these do i find any thing replyed by mr. m. but by telling me i fall to my old artifice of framing many senses ( which yet in this point were but two ) for which he blames me , as if it were blameable : whereas it is the only way to cleer truth to shew the divers senses of a speech , for avoiding of ambiguity , according to that saying , qui benè distinguit benè docet , he that distinguisheth well teacheth well , and his not distinctly answering by shewing in what sense his speech is meant tends to nothing but the hiding of truth . then he tells me , that i vent my criticisms , and undertake to shew that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to teach cum effectu ▪ or to teach till they were made scholars ( my word was disciples ) and that they were not to baptize till they were disciples , and then saith , but sir , what need all these things ? the meaning is plain that other nations should be taken in likewise as the jewes according to isaiah . . when other nations should by receiving and professing the gospel come under gods wing , they should partake of the same covenant which the jews had before enjoyed , he would henceforth be the god of them and their seed . whereto i reply , . that in his upbraiding me with venting my criticisms , as he calls them , about the word [ disciple ye ] he excepts against me for doing that which was necessary to be done , to wit , to cleer the meaning of the word , by which the sense of the text is manifested . . when he should answer the thing i alleged and proved , that nations are not appointed to be baptized without any other circumscription , but disciples or believers in them , he repeats his dictates as obscurely as before , bringing a text impertinently , which doth not at all say , that all the nation of egypt , that is , every man , woman , and child , that is an egyptian , shall be his people , but such as know the lord , do sacrifise , vow a vow , return to the lord , verse , . which was fulfilled either when after the return from captivity , in babylon , many of the egyptians became jewish proselytes , who were very probably many when p●olomy philadelphus appointed the bible to be translated into greek , as josephus l. . antiq. c. . relates , or if it were fulfilled in the time of the gospel , the stories of the church refute that conceit , that the whole nation of egypt were a national christian church , as the jews before christs comming , so as that all the people , men , women and children were christians , though it be true that god had his church at alexandria in egypt somewhat early , of which mark is said to have been bishop ( of which more may be seen in selden on eutychius ) and if that passage pet. . . the church that is at babylon elect together with you , be meant of babylon in egypt , it is plain that the church there was an elect company chosen out from the rest , and therefore not the whole city , men , women and children , and consequently not a nation entirely ; nor is there a word either in matthew . . or in the places mr. m. compares with it mark . . gal. . . rom. . , . or acts . . to prove that any other of the nations should partake of the covenant the jewes before had enjoyed , than those that receive the gospel , believe and repent , or that they that believe should partake of the promises of the covenant as it was national , and contained the promises made to abrahams natural seed , or that he would henceforth be the god of the nations professing the gospel , and their seed : but the texts all of them prove plainly that the term [ nations mat. . . ] is limitted to those of the nations , that were disciples , or did believe , mark . . that did repent , acts . . that believe , romans . , . as for gal. . . i admire that not only mr. m. but also the assembly at westminster in their confession of faith chap. . art . . to prove the infants of one or both believing parents are to be baptized , should cite genesis . , . with gal. . . . which if it were alleged any thing to their purpose to include infants as genesis . , . then [ nations ] must be taken to comprehend all of the nation , and [ the blessing of abraham ] meant of visible church-membership : wheras the text expresly expounds [ all nations ] to be meant of them [ which be of faith ] and [ the blessing ] to be [ justification , and the promise of the spirit through faith ] inferring from thence , that god would justifie the heathen through faith . yea it is so frequent to understand the term [ nations ] synecdochically for a part of nations , that i find no fewer than eighty times , and of these at least eight in matthews gospel , the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nations or gentiles ] in the new testament , taken so as not to include infants , in the speeches in which it is used . but of this i have said enough in my praecursor sect . . in my postscript to m. bl. s. . m. b. in his praefest . morat . s. . saith , that my speech he excepts against [ that no one countrey were discipled ] was meant by me not onely of a past event , but also of a duty , that it is not the ministers duty to endeavour the discipling of any whole nation ( for then he must endeavour to disciple infants ) nor a part of the work of that commission ; and this i confess is true , and i still think it ; yea if it were as mr. b. would have it , that christ had bid them disciple the whole nations , even infants , then he had bid them preach the gospel to infants , which had been a command of a man not in his wits , and which the apostles never obeyed , and therefore i must blaspheme christ if i expound the words as mr. b. doth ; nor doth any promise of christ foretel that he will make the whole of a nation , even the infants , disciples . what is in his addition page , . i know not : i had thought i had all his addition to his third edition when i had his friendly accommodation , and his praefestinantis morator ; what the reason is i know not , but i cannot yet get his additions : yet i conceive in his addition there is but a greater heap of impertinent texts . he saith of me , as for what he saith of moses and magistrates , if you peruse what i have said to that already , i think it will appear that he is no where more vertiginous than in this . to which i answer , i said that if christ would have had a whole nation made his church as the nation of the jews was , comprehending old and young he had used emperours and kings to gather his church as he did moses to gather the jewish church in the wildernesse by his authority , not apostles and preachers by perswasion . what he saith to it in his first edition , shall be ( god assisting ) in its place fully answered , i may more truly say that in this conceit of his , that christ should bid the apostles disciple infants , there is giddiness , if not an higher degree of folly . and my speech is so agreeable to reason , that if i be vertiginous in it , i shall then begin to turn sceptique , and question whether any thing be certain . as for what mr. blake saith about the rule of knowing a chosen believing nation , giving title to infants of that nation to be baptized as the jewish infants were circumcised , i think there is no need to add any more to what i say in the postscript s. . sith he confesseth page . as the nations are discipled , so they are to be baptized , and the infants of a nation are baptized by vertue of a privilege from their parents , not from the nation : though mr. rutherfords words temperate pleach . . concl . . arg . . due right of presbyteries ch . . sect . . p● . , . do intimate that the children in a chosen nation are holy with the holiness of the chosen nation , though father and mother be as wicked as the jewes that slew christ , who were certainly unbelievers , and they must stand to this if either they will justify the ordinary practice of baptizing any infants of any athe●stical , profane sco●ters , persecutors , & blasphemers of god and religion , if they were baptized in infancy and are called christians , or stand to their principle , that the commission is to baptize all nations in the same latitude that the jewes infants were to be circumcised , which was and ought to be done , though the parents were such as ahab and jezabel . but however those of the congregational way , who say we are freed from the paedagogy of the jewes , and deny that now there are national churches by institution as the jews were , and that it is sufficient now to make a member of the church because one is by birth of this or any other nation , as then it was , because one was born of the nation of the jewes , as mr. burroughs vindic . against mr. edwards aspersions pag. . me thinks should reject the interpretation o● making disciples all nations , in like wise as the one nation of the jews were circumcised , which was by vertue of their birth , according to gods appointment , as descended from abraham , or as joined to that people . yet mr. cobbet just vindic . part . ch . . s. . argues thus . all nations are the subject to be discipled and baptized by commission , and therefore at least all the specifical parts of the nations , all sorts of persons in the nations , but not all of every sort . to which i reply , the consequence is not of any validity , all nations , therefore all sorts of the nations , it follows not , all nations shall serve him , therefore all sorts of the nations , all nations compassed me about , therefore every sort of persons in a nation . but , saith mr. cobbet , i would know then why the collective nations are mentioned under that title of nations rather than that of grown persons of the nations . to which i answer , the reason is because the thing said , suffiently shews who of the nations are meant , and it is very frequent to restrain the extent of speeches pro subject a materia , as the matter spoken of will bear it with truth and sense . and that this is usual in the use of the term [ nations ] is shewed before . as for what mr. william cook saith in his font uncovered page . children are not to be excluded mat. . . because children are a very considerable and essential part of a nation , it is frivolous , for . if he mean by children infants , it is false that infants are an essential part of a nation , it is possible there may be a nation which may have for some time never an infant in it . . if it were true , yet it is not to his purpose till he proves that [ nations mat. . . ] is not taken synecdochically for a part of the nations , those that are of age to understand preaching of the gospel , but that it must comprehend every essential part in its full latitude . and in like sort mr. nathanael stephens his reasons taken not from the text , but from his own conceit , that [ nations ] must be taken as [ nation ] was in the application of it to the jewish church , and that otherwise there should be a shortning of the covenant , they have been often answered and shewed to proceed upon such mistakes as these , that the church of christians was to be modelized after the fashion of the jewes , and the use of baptism was to seal such a national covenant , and that title to a covenant made by god gives right to baptism . and for his instances page . of his precept for infant-baptism , to infringe our argument from john . . to prove that mat. . . only disciples actually made are the subject appointed to be baptized , they all proceed upon a mistake of the reason , as if from the example there were gathered an universal rule , whereas it is onely brought , first to explain the meaning of the phrases mat. . . of making disciples and baptizing them . secondly , that example is brought not by it self alone ( as mr. stephens brings it ) but together with the institution , and all the examples in the new testament to prove infant-baptism irregular , but his single instances do not infer . and whereas page , . he takes on him to shew a certain rule to know a discipled nation , he should have added initiating infants of that nation to baptism , and sets down their publique profession , he cleers not the difficulty , except he tell what profession and whose makes it a publique profession , whether when the representative of it professeth , or the king , or the major part , or every person of understanding , and if he mean these wayes or any other , how he can acquit the apostles from swerving from christs rule , never looking after any other than personal profession , nor baptizing any infant upon his imagined rule , and if as he speaks , as the parents do now receive the faith , so far they and theirs must go under the account of a discipled nation , if they profess to bring up theirs in the faith , then though the children and servants be professed infidels , yet the parents and masters being believers , and promising to educate theirs in christianity , these shall be baptizable because part of a discipled nation ; and when he saith , not only the families of those that truly believe , but the families of others also that are willing to yield to the christian education , and to live under the tuition of a godly magistracy in the commonwealth , and the instruction of a powerful ministery in the church ; so far forth as they are willing to be guided by the lawes , and the government of the church of christ , and are no worse , so far they must go under the notion of a discipled nation : and parents and children both be the lawful subject of baptism : he speaks nothing but riddles leaving it to his reader to study what he means by so many [ so fars ] whether he thinks all these do amount to a profession of the faith , whether these do make a man a christian compleat , or onely an half christian , what he means by [ and are no worse ] and how such a submission , as for ought i can perceive may stand with grosse ignorance of christ , and at some times , as in constantines and theodosius his times was in pagans , afore the inquisition in spain in many jews and saracens , and is at this day in spain , yea and england in many that know nothing of christianity , nor have any savour of the faith of christ , can make a discipled nation , and entitle to baptism , not shewing any scripture for what he saith , but abrahams circumcising , gen. . , . which how impertinent it is to this point of baptism , is , and shall be more fully shewed hereafter . but i am necessitated yet to say something more to my teasing , and eager antagonist mr. blake , who speaks thus vindic. foed . pag. . mr. t. in his apology sect . . pag. . would fain fasten another interpretation on these words , and make the commission not to sound according to the letter of the words , nor yet according to the successe by grace attained , but to his liking and therefore is put to it to change the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 then all nations must either be put by apposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or with the preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so instead of disciple all nations , it will be make disciples in all nations . this he thinks is very tolerable , because to disciple and to make disciples is all one . but though they may be one in themselves , yet it makes a main difference in the phrase , and with the additions of his preposition inverts the whole meaning of the words , as to the thing in controversie , which is such a violence offered to the text , that is not to be endured in him , that is about to draw a logical argument for his advantage against his adversary . answ : what i do in expounding christs words is not onely tolerable , but necessary to be done to cleer the meaning of them . i do no more than beza , the new annot. and others . mr. blake me thinks allowes my exposition in these words a little before . the apostles were to make disciples , to bring men into covenant with god , and being discipled to baptize them , sealing them as gods in covenant ; so john . , . when the lord knew that the pharisees had heard that jesus made and baptized more disciples than iohn , though iesus baptized not , but his disciples . here john made disciples & baptized them being made , the disciples of jesus made disciples , and baptized them being made ; an outward work then to make profession of the faith is sufficient to make one a disciple and to bring him into the verge of the covenant . in which he plainly asserts , that christ appointed and the apostles practised the making disciples by an outward work to make profession of faith , and baptized them so made . now if this be the meaning of mr. blake , i see not wherein there needs be difference between us . for whether we read make disciples all nations , or make disciples of or in all nations , and this making disciples by an outward work , and profession of faith upon that outward work are that which makes one a disciple , and these are to be baptized that are thus made disciples , i shall not stick to yield that christ appointed , and the apostles practised by the outward work of preaching to make disciples by the outward work of profession of faith , the whole of all nations , and baptized them wholly being made disciples by profession of faith : and i mean this as pareus on mat. . . tertium mandatum est de baptizandis omnibus gentibus , hoc est sacramento baptismi initiandis & consecrandis omnibus iis qui christo nomen darent . and herein i make the commission to sound according to the letter , and according to the success by grace attained , without the least interverting the whole meaning of the words , without any violence offered to the text . nor do i expect any thing in this matter to be indured in me but what i find agreeable to speeches of be●●● , pareus , the new annot. and m. blake himself . yea but the text is to be expounded so as to comprehend every age of men , and the term [ all nations ] is to comprehend the whole of every nation . answ. it is clear by comparing mat. . . with mark . . that [ make disciples all nations ] answers to [ preach the gospel to every creature ] which later term is in shew more comprehensive then [ make disciples all nations ] but i suppose mr. bl. will not be so absurd as to conceive that any other than of humane kind are meant thereby , nor that any other of them are meant thereby than those that were capable of hearing and understanding it , me thinks he should not conceive christ bid them preach the gospel to every deaf man , every natural fool , or mad man that have at no time use of reason , or men that wilfully would not hear : yea methinks mr. bl. should yield further , that when christ bids them preach the gospel to every man that is fit to hear , he did not intend to charge them , that they must preach the gosspel so as that every intelligent person of mankind in the world must hear it from their mouth : for then it had bin their sin being a breach of christs cōmand , if every person of natural understanding , whether of jews or gentiles , did not hear the gospel from them ; which must have tied them either to sin , or else to search out every countrey , continent , o● island be it never so small , every house in every city , village , wilderness , and to preach christ to them , wherever they were , which had been according to the course of ordinary humane abilities altogether impossible for them to do . i conceive mr. bl. will yield that in what sense it is meant col. . . the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven , that is it was preached to all sorts of persons that were hearers without difference of jews or gentiles , in the same sense christ bids them [ preach the gospel to every creature ] & [ make disciples all nations ] being the same command as the comparing the texts shews . if [ every creature ] be not meant of every creature universally and distributively , but of any sort or number of men indefinitely , to whom they might and it was fit to preach , in like manner in the same command thus expressed [ disciple all nations ] by [ all nations ] are not meant omnes gentes totaliter totae , all nations whole and wholly , but any persons indifferently in any nation whom they might , and were fit to be made disciples by preaching , and to baptize them that were professing disciples of christ so made , which is the only sense that the success by grace attained to makes good . neither did the apostles in the event preach the gospel to every humane person capable of hearing and understanding , they came not to every village , i●le , civil or barbarous , sure not to every house , yea sometimes they were restrained , as paul from preaching in asia , bithynia , acts . , . nor was there ever by the apostles or any other the gospel preached so successfully as that there was ever one whole nation , i mean totaliter tota , comprehending every individual humane person of that nation , discipled thereby , so as that every one of the nation , not one excepted , did upon hearing the gospel , freely , or of their own accord , soberly , or in their right wits , seriously , or not in jest , understandingly , or knowing what they spake , become disciples of jesus , confessing him to be the christ the son of the living god. but mr. blake goes on vindic. foederis pag. . [ and as it is against the letter of the text , so it is plainly against our saviours scope and end in giving this commission . mr. t. examen page . saith , this enlargement unto all nations in this place was in opposition to the restriction mat. . . now in that nation to which there they were limited , the whole of the nation was in covenant , all the land was the land of immanuel , isa. . . and consequently so it was to be in other nations by vertue of this happy inlargement , or else the opposition is utterly taken away , the meaning of the words clouded , and the apostles at a losse for understanding of them ; for having spent their pains before in a nation all disciples , and now having a commission for the discipling of all nations , how shall they understand the words , unlesse the whole of the nation where they come are to be discipled ? ] answ. the nation in which the apostles according to the commission mat. . . . before spent their pains , were the people of israel , and to say that nation were all disciples , understanding it of disciples of christ , and of every person of that nation , is to say the snow is black ; for the contrary is manifest by expresse scripture john . . & . , . & . , . & . . & . . but , saith he , the whole of the nation was in covenant , i grant that the whole of the nation were in the covenants at horeb , exodus . and in the plains of moab by moses his edicts from god deu. . but what is this to prove that the apostles spent their pains in a nation all disciples , every person or persons , even the infants of that nation were disciples of christ. were all of the jewish nation when the apostles preached to them , disciples of christ , because in moses his time many hundreds of years before all were engaged in the covenants at horeb , and the plains of moab by moses authority ? it is but a new non-sense gibberish to make these terms synonimous to be disciples of christ , and to be in covenant according to the manner of the jewes being in covenant . and the reason of mr. blake is as frivolous , all the land was the land of immanuel , isaiah . . therefore the whole of the nation were in covenant , that nation were all disciples of christ. for first it is plain that [ the land of immanuel ] there is not the people , but the ground or earth they inhabited , because it is that , the breadth of which the king of assyria did fill with his wings , that is his forces , and did pass through . . how doth mr. blake prove that it was called the land of immanuel , because the whole of the nation was in covenant ? it might be called immanuels land , when the assyrians , chaldaeans , and other strangers inhabited it , israel being expelled , because of gods title to it , and the people might and shall be in covenant when they shall not be in the land. . but it is in my apprehension a meer whimzy , to infer the whole of the nation was in covenant in isaiahs days , therefore the nation of the jewes were all disciples of christ when the apostles spent their pains in preaching according to the commission mat. . , . . there is no less dotage in the rest of his frivolous speech , that it [ is plainly against out saviours scope and end in giving the commission mat. . . to understand , make disciples in ( i said of ) all nations , that if the whole of the nation be not in covenant in other nations as in the land of immanuel by vertue of this happy enlargement , the opposition is utterly taken away , the meaning of the words clouded , and the apostles at a losse for the understanding of them . ] all which are but vain words . the meaning is plain enough , as i conceive , it was understood so by the apostles , and hath been so by expositors , as i have shewed , even by the chiefest of the paedobaptists , without any such construction as mr. blake makes . mr. blake goes on thus . [ and hereto accord the prophecies of the scripture , for the calling of the nations of the gentiles , god shall enlarge iaphet , and he shall dwell in the tents of sem , gen. . . sem was wholly in covenant not by pieces and parcells , but universally in covenant , iaphet is to come in succession into covenant in like latitude ; psal. . ask of me , and i will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession . it is not some among the nations of the heathen that are to be the inheritance of christ , but the heathen . to which agrees revel . . . the kingdomes of the earth shall become the kingdomes of the lord and of his christ ; immanuel of old had one , now he shall have more kingdomes ; and they become his no other way , than by discipling ; gods ministers are his men of war for subduing and captivating them , cor. . , . and kingdoms are promised them , not some in a kingdom . alexander would not sit down with such a conquest , neither would jesus christ. if to possess some in a kingdome be to possess a kingdom , then antichrist of long time hath had his kingdom ; all kings shall bow down before him , all nations shall serve him , psal. . . all nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee o lord , and shall glorify thy name , psal. . . thou shalt call a nation which thou knowest not , and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee , isaiah . . there god calls the nation , and the nation doth answer gods call . in that day israel shall be a third with egypt , and with assyria , even a blessing in the midst of the land , whom the lord shall blesse , saying , blessed be egypt my people , and assyria the work of my hands , and israel my inheritance . there egypt and assyria are in equipage with israel , all three sister-churches ; israel without any preheminence , either israel then was not a nation of disciples , a nation wholly within covenant , or else there are to be national churches , the whole of the nation to be discipled and brought into covenant . ▪ ] answ. mr. blake saith , the prophecies of scripture accord hereto , that mat. . . they were to make all in a nation disciples , the whole of the nation was to be discipled , and that the words were not otherwise to be understood . if this reason were of force , where any thing is said of the nation it must be understood of the whole of the nation , of every person in it or of it , even the infants . which how monstrous and wild a conceit it is will appear by multitudes of instances . matth. . . the kingdom of god shall be given to a nation ( contradistinguished to the jews ) bringing forth the fruits of it : if mr. blake say right , there is a prophecy of a nation , the whole whereof every particular , even infans should bring forth the fruits of the kingdome of god , mat. . . ye shall be hated of all nations for my name sake , that is , the whole of all the nations , and if so , then of the christians even themselves , who are a part of the nations . besides , if this were the meaning , the prophecy of christ would be contradictory to the prophecies mr. blake brings , in the latitude in which he expounds the word [ nations ] mat. . . nation shall rise up against nation , and kingdom against kingdom , that is , if mr. blakes fu●ile dictates were ought worth , the whole of the nation and kingdom , even the infants , should rise up against the whole of another nation and kingdom , even the infants . acts . . god hath given repentance to the gentiles , or nations , that is , according to the rate of mr. blakes expositions , the whole of the nations , even the infants . acts . . the conversion of the nations , that is , of the whole of the nations , even the infants , ver . . all the nations upon whom my name is called , that is , the whole of the nations , even the infants . the instances are so many to shew the futility of mr. blakes reasoning , that i hope either he himself will discern his folly , and those that magnify him , his weakness herein , or else me thinks the impudence of such reasoning should be exploded . but to shew further the vanity of his dictating , rather than disputing , he mentions gen. . . as a prophecy of the calling of the gentiles , but he takes it as presupposed , but proves it not ; and what exceptions ly against it will appear in that which follows in answer to mr. cobbet . and then he saith , sem was wholly in covenant , not by pieces and parcels , universally in covenant , if he mean it of the jews , in the sense wherein being in covenant is as much as being disciples of christ by profession , it is most palpably false : for they disclaimed it , john . . but were it granted that they were in covenant wholly , yet where is there a word to prove that japhet is to come in succession into covenant in like latitude . again he saith , psal. . . it is not some among the nations of the heathen , that are to be the inheritance of christ , but the heathen . in which speech either he deals deceitfully or unskilfully . for whereas to [ it is not some among the nations ] he opposeth [ but the heathen ] he should , if he would speak congruous sense , have said [ all of the heathen ] for [ ah ] is opposed to [ some ] but instead thereof he saith [ but the heathen ] which is either to delude the unwary reader in that indefinite expression , as if it were all one with an universal , or to trifle , sith [ some of the heathen ] may be called [ the heathen ] it being but an indefinite term , and doth not stand by any rule of logick necessarily for [ all heathen ] and therefore it is all one as if he had said , it is not among some of the nations , but among some of the nations . besides , what sense is there in these words [ some of the nations of the heathen ] ? what are the heathen but the nations ? heathen , gentiles , the nations , are all terms of the same sense , answering to the same words in greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and therefore to say [ some of the nations of the heathen ] is all one as to say [ some of the nations of the nations ] which is to trislle . then revel . . is brought in , which prophecy is not to be fulfilled till the seventh angel sounds , till then he shews not that gods ministers have kingdoms promised them , not some in kingdoms . and even then the nations were angry , and the wrath of god was come , and the time of the dead to be judged , ver . . which sure was not in johns daies , ●or is it to be imagined to be fulfilled in our daies . his talk of christ as emulating alexander the great , is most vain . christ conquers those whom his father hath given him , be they fewer or more , and sits down with that conquest , untill his foes be made his footstool , but it is most false that there is any scripture that tells us , that all the kingdomes of the world shall be christs , so as that the whole of each nation shall be disciples of christ , or willing subjects to him . for then at his comming he should have no enemies to put down , none to condemn . no doubt antichrist , yea and the devil too , hath had of long time a kingdom , some its likely in most or every kingdom , yea even where christs kingdom hath been . doth not christ say , the angel of the church of pergamus dwelt where satans throne was ? neither psal. , . nor psal. . . nor isai. . . saith , that the whole of the nation shall be disciples of christ , and if the prophecies were understood in that latitude , they were most palpably false . nor is isa. . , . certain to be a prophecy of the call of those people in the times of the messiah , but may be understood of the succession of proselytes thence after the return from the captivity , and if it were , yet there is not so much as the term [ nation ] nor is it absurd to deny israel to be a nation of disciples , or a nation wholly within covenant , as being within covenant is equipollent to being disciples of christ ; nor can national churches , consisting of the whole of a nation , even the infants , be proved thence , or by any history . the whole of the nation to be discipled , and brought into covenant , is a meer phantastick dream . m. bl. yet ads , these prophecies or a great part of them i produc'd in my answer of mr. t. passing by other in silence ( as having nothing to reply ) he marvels that i am not ashamed to produce psalm . ver . . psalm . . ver . . to prove that the whole of the nations , even infants , must be included , matth. . . as if it were foretold that the whole nation , even infants , should come before god and worship . it is strange if mr. t. be ignorant , that prophecies in the old testament of the glory of new testament times , are in old testament phrases by way of allusion to the worship of those times , set forth to us . now it was the practice of the people of the jews , for their males of growth and strength to appear before the lord , and neither females no● infants , as ainsworth on exod ▪ . , observes , yet they appeared in the name of females , and their females and children were in covenant together with them , deut. . . so that as the rest of the prophecies to which mr. t. hath nothing to say , so these two prophecies ( against which he excepts ) speak fully for the discipling of nations in the new testament times . answ. mr. blake construes my omitting to except against the allegation of the other prophecies besides psalm . . psalm . . as if i had nothing to reply , whereas being indeed in that writing necessitated to be brief , i thought best to answer those that seemed to have most shew for him : but now he is answered in all . i said i marvelled he was not ashamed to produce them as he did : but he seems past shame . he saith vindic. foed . pag. . that an eminently learned man lately observed that i had donum impudentiae . who that eminently learned man is i know not , nor do i care . till there be given a reason of this censure it cannot better me , but will have a shew of malignancy to me , if not vanity also in the censurer and relator . and ill will seldome speaks well : he may bestow his censure more rightly elsewhere . i say still , it is a shameful thing to abuse scriptures as mr. blake doth to understand by nations the whole of the nation , even infants , when , if they be so understood the scripture should in that sense be most palpably false ; for it should foretell a thing that neither was nor will be . i conceive myself not ignorant of what mr. blake saith , and though i grant all he saith , yet it covers no part of his shame in abusing the text . for even in his allusion , the whole of the nation , females and infants , did not appear before the lord , and therefore were the extent of the prophecies as large as that they are conceived to allude to , yet the whole of the nation , even infants , were not included . and this is enough to shew the futility of his talk about discipling nations , which in his sense never was . nor is there one reason given by mr. blake for his exposition , and reasons sufficient are given for mine , and i may retort mr. bls. words upon him , all indifferent men may challenge their reason that heed him , and when i am taken with such frivolous dictates as his are , i expect my friends should conclude that i doat . sect . x. that infants of believers are not disciples appointed to be baptized , mat. . . the last exception against the minor in my argument [ that infants of believers are not disciples of christ appointed to be baptized mat. . . ] is by denying it , and asserting on the contrary that they are disciples and appointed there to be baptized . but this is so sorry a shift , so contrary to the notation and use of the word in the new testament in the text , to the apostles practice which best expounds christs commission , to their own or fellows confession elsewhere , that it looks like the putting a face on a thing when there is small hope to hold it . mr. rutherford divine right of presbyteries page . see you doubt not of a warrant for baptizing children who are not disciples ; for then the apostles from this place had no warrant to baptize the infants of believers . nevertheless because such men as mr. cotton , and mr. baxter have put this text in the front to prove infant-baptism by it , i shall lay down sundry arguments against that abuse of the text , and then examine what they say about this . that our lord christ did not mean by [ disciples to be baptized matth. . . ] infants either of believers or unbelievers , i prove . . from the notation of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a verbal noun , which comes from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath learned . mr. b. plain scrip. proof ▪ &c. pag. . acknowledgeth it to have denomination from the act of learning . mr. blake vindic. foederis pag. . they are still stiled in new testament-scriptures , believers from the faith that they profess , saints from the holiness to which they stand engaged , disciples from the doctrine which they profess to learn , and christians from him whose they are , whom they serve , and from whom they expect salvation . whence i argue . they are not disciples as mat. . . who do not learn or profess the learning of christs doctrine ; but infants do not learn christs doctrine ; ergo they are not disciples . the major is proved from the notation and use of the word before confessed , and intimated in that speech of the apostle eph. . ▪ which shews , that to be a disciple is to be one that learns christ. the minor is manifest , from the want of capacity to learn , and from sense , to which it is apparent that they regard not , heed not , understand not any thing of christ , as by other signs , so by the difficulty to teach them when they come to years . to this what mr. m. replies is answered before . mr. b. part . chap. . saith you must understand that one may be called a disciple , . in a large sense relatively , as being of the number of those that belong to christ as master and king of the church , and destinated or devoted to his oversight and rule , and teaching , for the future : thus believers infants are disciples , of which i shall give you proof anone . . sometimes the word is taken in a narrower sense for those who are actually learners . but commonly applied to men at age it includeth both relation and subordination , and also actual learing , but the former principally : but applied to infants it intendeth the relation at present and actual learning , as one end of it intended for the future . to which i reply , . i take it for granted that it is sometimes taken for those who are actually learners . . that the term [ disciple ] commonly applied to men of age includes actual learning . . that applyed to infants it intendeth the relation as present , and actual learning as one end of it intended for the future . wherein letting passe the uncouth expression that [ the word in tendeth an end ] and taking his meaning , i observe , first , that he makes the term [ disciples ] to be meant in one manner , when it is said of men of age , and another when of infants . which me thinks is as absurd as that he chargeth mr. bedford with pag. . that he made one end of baptism in the aged , another in infants , one covenant to parents , and another to infants , as if the aged were one sort of disciples meant mat. . . and yet the same word includes another sort of disciples in a clean different sense . it would be known of which sort of disciples he understands it , for certainly there is but one sort of disciples there mentioned : and if he will stand to his words in that place ▪ he must understand it of disciples upon instruction . secondly , that he sets down the sense of a word , and yet produceth no place for the present where the distinction is put , but refers us to another place , which his reader must seek , and when he hath sought all his book he shall find but one text acts . . and that miserably abused by him . of which in its place . thirdly , that he acknowledgeth page ▪ and here , that the denomination is from the disciples act of learning , yet will have it imagined that an infant may be a disciple without his own actual learning , onely from his belonging to christ by gods covenant , and mens destination and devoting to learn hereafter . but it is to me unconceivable that the denomination which is from the act inherent in the person should be without the act inherent in the person from some acts of another , and those acts not putting the form denominating in actual being , yea when oftentimes the form denominating is never in act . for by mr. bs. doctrine , gods covenant , and mans devoting make a disciple , and yet i think notwithstanding the covenant , and mans devoting , many thousands , yea the most part of infants whom he would have baptized never actually learn by reason of death or disaffection , yea many expresly renounce it . were gods covenant absolute to every true believers infant that he shall be a disciple , yet for the present it doth put nothing actually in the person to whom the promise is made , no more than election doth put actually any thing in the elected . praedestinatio ni● ponit in praedestinato , aq. p. . q. . art . . gods purpose of a thing doth not put it in being , mr. bl. vindic. foed . pag. . most truly mr. cobbet just vindic. part . . cap. . election doth neither make a man holy , but only in●e●●ionally , nor give him actual church right . and this may in like manner be said concerning gods promise or covenant , by it self considered , it doth assure something for the future , but put nothing in present being . the covenant is to a person afore he is born , as to isaac and jacob , shall it be said , that afore they were born they were actually disciples , and had actual church right ? i confesse they might be called disciples or believers in possibility , but not actually . gods election and promise denominate a man elected and a child of the promise ( which are terms of the same extent , rom. . . ) but not justifyed , converted , regenerated , or actually a believer , disciple , or visible church member . but this is yet more in consistent with mr. bs. bypotheses , who when he assigns the covenant which he will have to make an infant actually a disciple , makes it onely the conditional covenant of grace ( as i shall shew hereafter ) and that covenant is upon condition of faith , and this he will have to belong to all men whether believers or unbelievers , and me thinks he should not say all men are actually disciples , visible church members , though god hath made that covenant with them which he seals in baptism , which he often saies to be only the conditional covenant , and ●eckons it my prime errour that misleads me in the point of baptism , that i make baptism seal the absolute covenant of grace . and yet he chargeth mr. bedford p. . . as with an absurdity following his tenet that baptism should seal one covenat to the father , another to the son . if then the covenant make not others actually disciples , then neither insants . idem quà idem semper facit idem . again , a conditional covenant cannot make an actual disciple , till the condition which is actual faith be put . conditionale nihil ponit in esse . therfore the cōditional covenant sealed in baptism cannot make an actual disciple . nor is it to be said , the parents faith is the condition of the covenant for the child . for . it being not the condition of the covenant to the parent that another should believe for him , neither is it the condition for the child , except mr. b. will fall into the absurdity he chargeth on mr. bedford , that one covenant should be to the father , and another to the child , sealed in baptism . . a child , the father believing , shall be actually a disciple before it is born , for a conditional proposition , the condition being put , becomes absolute . now it is his child , and he believing afore it is born ; ergo. in like manner it may be said of anothers devoting or destinating an infant to be a disciple , that is no act of the person denominated , it can only make a disciple intentionally ; a persons devoting is but his wish , or desire , or promise , and shall that make a child actually a disciple ? yea destinating and devoting is before the child is conceived or born , as hannah did devote samuel , was samuel therefore actually a disciple and visible church-member afore he was born ? many of those whom the parents destinate and devote to be actual learners in after time , yet never are such : yea many of them are express disclaimers and opposers of that doctrine ; shall these be called actual disciples , from their parents wish , or hopes , or promise ? again , he makes the term [ disciple ] applied to an insant to note a relation present , actual learning as one end of it intended for the future . i confess that [ disciple ] notes a relation between the teacher and person taught , yet it seems to note a passion as its form or quiddity , so that if any should ask who is a disciple , i should say , one that hath learned , and what it is to be discipled , it is to be taught or learned , and so doth import a passion , and is to be put in that predicament , and the relation is as they say secundùm dici , not secundùm esse . but were it granted that the whole essence of a disciple did consist in relation , i would fain know what shall be the foundation of his relation . logicians say , to relation there is requisite a foundation , as begetting , two terms , as father and son , and a respect arising between them from that foundation , as fatherhood it is an unheard-of thing that a relation should be without a foundation , a father without begerting , an actual father without actual begetting . it is true , a man may be p 〈…〉 lly a father without actual begetting , but to make an actual f 〈…〉 without actual begetting , is oppositum in opposito . mr. b. saints everlasting ; est , part . 〈◊〉 . . sect . . to be the people of god without regeneration is as impossible as to be the natural children of men without generation . now what should be the foundation of the relation of a disciple of christ but learning of christ of an actual disciple but actual learning , i know not . future learning , being acording to mr. b. the end intended , is not in being , perhaps will never be , and therefore it is in my apprehension a most illogical and absurd conceit which mr. b. hath hatched , to obtrude upon us such a notion of a disciple , as supposeth a relation without a foundation , and contrary to grammar , to call a person a disciple who hath learned nothing , no not so much as to know or own his teacher . to say a person may be a scholar afore he learns , serves not turn , to avoyd the force of this reason : for the term [ scholar ] coming from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , leasure or vacation from other exercise , may be without actual learning , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a verbal noun from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hath learned , and disciple à discendo , from learning ; and therefore as it is absurd to call one learned or a learner , without learning , so it is absurd to call one a disciple without actual learning . but i rest not on the notation alone , but proceed to the use of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a disciple . . i argue thus . the word [ disciple ] matth. . . is to be understood as it is understood all along the new testament ; but all along the new testament it is applied to those that addicted themselves to some as teachers , followed them , learned of them , no where to an insant , who doth none of these . ergo , infants are not disciples , meant matth. . . the major is plain from the rule of understanding words , that it is to be according to the use of them . the minor is proved thus . the disciples of christ are understood as the disciples of iohn and the pharisees , luke . . as the disciples of moses , iohn , . of the perverters , acts . . but in all these places , and in all the rest , they are termed disciples of john , the pharisees , moses , and the perverters who addicted themselves to them , followed them , learned of them , no where an infant , who doth none of these ; therefore the term [ disciples of christ ] notes onely such , and no where an infant . . i argue thus . they that are not termed believers , are not disciples ; but infants of believers are not termed believers ; therefore they are not termed disciples . the major is proved from the equipollence of the term [ disciple ] and [ believers ] in the new testament . calvin institut . lib. . cap. . sect . . cur respondet quod passim evangelistae sideles & discipulos ponunt tanqu im synonyma , ac-praesertim lucas in actis apostolorum saepius , acts . , , . & . , , , , , . & . , . & . . & . ▪ , . which thing is strongly dispured by chamier , . panst. cath. tom . . l. c. . s. . against the papists implicite saith , that none are believers but disciples who learn and know . which he confirms from matth. . . in these words , nimlrum disertum erat christi mandatum , matth. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , docete , sive discipulos facite omnes gentes . the minor needs not proof , believing being an act of the intellectual part , supposing the use of reason which infants ordinarily have not , at least in such things they cannot be sayd ordinarily to be behevers ; nor is the term believer any where in scripture applied to them . rightly saith the same chamier , panstr . cat. to● . . l. . c. . sect . . infantes potentia tantùm sideles sunt , actu nemo nisi adultiv . . this is further confirmed by comparing matth. . with mark . , . where the same commission is expressed , given at the same time , in somwhat different words , which therefore without all contradiction the one expound the other . now what is sayd matth. . [ make disciple of all nations ] is in mark . [ preach the gospel to every creature ] and what is sayd matth. . [ baptizing them ] is mark . . [ whosoever believeth and is baptized shall be saved ] which apparently shews that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 them or disciples ] are the same with [ believers ] and consiquently not insants . . which is further confirmed by philips answer to the eunuch 〈…〉 ling him , that act● ▪ . which shews that philip understood christs commission to be to baptize believers and none else ; but infants are not such ordinarily ; therefore they are not ordinarily to be baptized . mr. b. himself pag. . saith , now for the aged a disciple and believer are all o●e mark . ● . what mr. blake speakes vindic . foed : ●ag , . of insants being disciples as to the participat●●n of ordinances , and elsewhere of being believers virtually , though not formally , is without scripture proof , which termes none disciples 〈…〉 right to participate of ordinances , but from learning , 〈…〉 believers who are not so formaly , nor do i know 〈◊〉 w 〈…〉 infants may be called virtually believers , then 〈…〉 ing is sayd to be virtually such , though not formally , when it hath , though not the quality in its kinde , yet hath it ability to produce it , as the sun they say is not hot in its self formally , yet it is hot virtually , because it can produce it in another ; but i presume he will no say this of an insant that he is virtually a believer because he can produce it in another . if he mean it in another , sense , he should shew how an infant may be said to be virtually a believer , and prove that sense out of scripture , and not abuse men with a nonsense distinction , if he mean to cleer truth . i shall need no better proof against him , to shew infants are not to be termed disciples and believers , than his own words , vindic. foed . p. . all visible professors that except the terms of the covenent are believers , saints , disciples , christians ; so they are stiled in new testament scriptures , believers from the faith that they profess , saints from the holiness to which they stand engaged , disciples from the doctrine which they profess to learn , and christians from him whose they are , whom they serve , and from whom they expect salvation : of which terms according to his own explication none can be attributed to infants of believers . . that infants of believers are not disciples appointed to be baptized , matth . . is proved from the means of making disciples , to wit , by preaching the gospel to them , as appears by mark . . for what is matth. . . make disciples of all nations , is mark . . preach the gospel to every creature . whence i argue , those disciples which christ hath ordinarily appointed to be baptized , an such as are made such by preaching of the gosepl to them . rightly saith mr. collings vindic ▪ vindic . pag. . how i● one made a disciple , but by conversion ? and when is a man converted , but when he is brought to believe ? but infants of believers are not made disciples by preaching of the gospel , as is of it self manifest , and acknowledged by the adverse party , who make them disciples by an imaginary covenant , and their parents profession ; ergo , they are not disciples appointed by christ ordinarily to be baptized . . those are appointed to be baptized , and no other , whom the apostles did baptize , for the apostles practice shews how they understood christs commission , and rightly saith mr. norton , respon . ad apollon . c. . pag. . . religio est nobis judicare apostolos in baptizando observàsse regulam à christo latam matth. . . religion binds us to judge the apostses to have observed in baptizing the rule made by christ matth. . . but they baptized no other than repenting and believing disciples of christ , no infants , ergo. to say that in christs and the apostles daies there were no infants which they might baptize , is neither true , nor consistent with their own allegations of mat. . , . acts . . & . . to say that at first gathering the church they were not to do it , but after , is to make them faulty in not observing the commission of christ , as they expound it , that even in the first planting of the church they were to baptize disciples immediately and remotely such , as mr. baxter speaks ; and to hold that the apostles practice is not our pattern , and that the first church was not best ordered , though it was indeed the purest reformed church , and therefore the solemn covenant ties us to endeavour the establishing the worship of god according to it . to say , infants were baptized by them but not recorded , is without proof , or any likelyhood of truth , and tends to derogate from the fulness and perfection of the scriptures . out of all which i conclude , that infants , even of believers , are not disciples appointed matth. . . ordinarily to be baptized . sect . xi . mr. cottons allegations in his dialogue , the first chapter , to prove infants disciples , are shewed to be insufficient . against this mr. john cotton in his dialogue , intituled , the grounds and ends of baptism , &c. chapter . disputes thus . that all the children of the faithful ( or which is all one , all the children of the church , for the church is a congregation of the faithfull ) that they are all of them disciples , may appear by the testimony of the prophet esay , who speaking of the times of the church in the new testament ▪ all thy children ( saith he ) shall be taught of god , esa. . . and if they be taught of god then are they disciples , for that is the meaning of the word disciples . disciples are taught or learnt of god. answ. . it is supposed but not proved that the tossed v. . is meant of the church of the n. t. and not of the people of the jews after the captivity . . the phrase of [ children of the church ] is not a scripture-phrase , nor that i know is the church made a mother , though jerusalem , which is above be called the mother of us all , gal. . . which seems to be meant of the evangelical covenant . . it is supposed that to be children of the church , and to be children of the faithful , are one , yet mr. cobbet in his just vindic. makes them only the church seed , who are children of persons inchurched , otherwise , though the parents be faithful , yet they are not the church seed . besides to be [ children of the church ] is not all one with to be natural children of believers . for the church doth not beget or bring forth by natural seed , but by spiritual , to wit , the word of god , peter . . and children are begotten in the womb of the church by the spirit , and therefore said to be born after the spirit , gal. . . by the promise or covenant of the free woman , v. . and indeed the new annotations on isaiah . . hath thus , and thy children shall be taught of the lord ] by the outward ministery of the word , and inward co-operation of the spirit , jerem. . . john . . cor. . . cor. . . john . , . calvin instit. lib. . cap. . s. . denique non frustrà deus apud iesaiam hâ● not â disoernit filios ecclesiae ab extraneis , quod omnes erudiet [ verbo ] ut sint ab ipso edocti . . it is supposed that the church whose children those are is the visible church as such . whereas . in scripture no church is called the mother but hierusalem above , gal. . . which is the mother of us all , and that is either the evangelical covenant , or the invisible church . the churches children are christs seed , and they are those whom his father hath given him , heb. . . made disciples by his word and spirit . our lord christ where he cites this passage of the prophet , john . . applies it to those that are drawn of the father , and whom he will raise up at the last day , ver . . who are only the children of the invisible church . diodati annot . on john . . all not all and every particular person , as it appears by ver . . & but all the elect and children of god. no● is mr. c 〈…〉 shift , rather than answer , of any moment , when he saith , for look what promises are made to the invisible church , they are for their sakes offered to all the members of the visible churches , whereof the lively members are the chief . for . he doth alter the term in the objection , which was [ made ] not [ offered ] wherein both he , and mr. george philips before him , deal not rightly , so speaking as that it may be taken , that to be in covenant ; to have the covenant made , is all one with to have it offered : whereas it is offered not only to the children of the visible church , but to many professed unbelievers , as acts . . now this answering is a way to delude readers , when the objection is , that the promise is made only to the children of the invisible church , to answer the promises are also offered to the members of the visible , and when it is expected that it should be proved the promise is made to conclude that it is offered . . mr. cotton dare not say that promise to be made to any but those that are children of the invisible church , and therefore it can be meant of no other , and so no other taught of the lord and disciples , which will not reach to the natural children of visible in churched believers . . [ thy children ] is not all one with [ thy infants ] mr. cotton denies not , that the meaning in part may be of men of years , and if so no necessity to understand it of infants , and then his argument falls , which is to prove infants to be disciples . . besides , our lord christ , where he cites john . . the prophet , leaves out the word [ children ] and applies the teaching of god onely to true believers . omnes , saith grotius , quibus sermo evangelii annuntiatur . . were it granted mr. cotton that all believers infants were taught of god by secret indiscernable teaching , yet this being such , cannot be applyed to the disciples meant mat. . . who are disciples by preaching the gospel , and known to be such by their profession . but mr. cotton tells us , the infants or children of the faithful are not to be excluded from the number of the children of the church . for the same prophet speaking of the same church , fetcheth in infants among the blessed ones of the church , and blessed with such spiritual light and life from christ , as if they had lived an hundred years in the church esa. . . there shall be no more ( saith he ) then●● forth an infant of daies , nor an old man that hath not filled his daies . for the chi●● shall dy an hundred years old , but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed . how shall the child dy as at an hundred years old , but that he is so well instructed , and inlightned by christ , and thereby as capable of enterance into heavenly glory , as a grown disciple of an hundred years old ? ans. . were m. cottons paraphrase granted , yet the conclusion followes not thence , that therefore infants are disciples to be baptized according to mat. . . or as he speaks , children of the church . for to be so well instructed , and enlightned by christ , and thereby as capable of entrance into heavenly glory as a grown disciple of an hundred years old , may agree by extraordinary inspiration to one that is only of the invisible church , and not of the visible church as disciples meant mat. . . . mr. cotton , when he saith , [ how shall the child by as at an hundred years old ] doth sl●ly intimate as if [ as ] were in the text : whereas it is not so , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the child or boy shall dy an hundred years old , or the son of an hundred years . which without any allegory hath a plain sense as the new annotations expresse it , he that is now a child shall attain to those years ere he dy . which was accomplished in the return from the captivity according to the prophecy of zechariah ch . . vide grotius . and therefore we need not run to any allego ▪ annot in ze● . rical interpretation , nor refer it to the times of . . the messiah , either after the resurrection or afore , of which hieronym in locum . . were an allegory allowed , yet not only in hierom , but also in calvin , piscator , and others , there are va●iety of senses different from mr. cotton , so that in alleging these texts he trifled more than became so grave a man. but he goes on thus . the apostle peter reckoneth infants of the church for disciples acts . . if the infants of the church had not been disciples , the false apostles could have pretended no power to have ●ut that ordinance upon them . answ. . [ infants of the church ] is a phrase the scripture useth not , and i● serves only to possess the unwary reader with this conceit , as if the children of believers inchurched , as they speak , were children of the church ; whereas none is a child of the church till taught the gospel and made a believer . . it is untruly suggested , as if the false apostles pretended power to circumcise infants of christian disciples from this chat the infants were disciples : but ver . . . shew plainly that they alleged that the gentile disciples were tied to observe the law of moses , and so to be circumcised , both they and their children . but , saith he , peter acknowlegeth them disciples , but the yoke of circumcision was too heavy for them , as drawing upon them the yoke of the ceremonial law. answ. there is not a word of peter acknowledging the infants disciples , but the believing parents ; nor is the yoke of circumcision said to be too heavy for them now ▪ as if it were not so 〈◊〉 , but it 〈…〉 such as neither the apostles , nor their fathers were able to bear , much less gentiles . but 〈…〉 christ mark . . luke . . 〈…〉 ) is the kingdome of god , which argueth that even little children are members of the church here . answ. it is proved in my postscript● . . that matth. . . the kingdom of heaven , in mark . . luke . . the kingdom of god , is meant of the kingdom of glory : but it follows not that therefore infants are members of the church here , many belonging to the invisible church , which belong not to the visible , and vice versâ , as abortives , still born infants , converts at the point of death , &c. are of the kingdom of glory , who are never members of the visible church here . but , saith he , whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god , as a little child ( to wit , as a little child receiveth it , for so much the grammer construction requireth ) he shall in no wise enter therein . answ. it is untrue , that the grammar construction requireth , that it should be understood thus , that a little child receiveth the kingdom of god , but only this is meant , that none shall enter into the kingdom of god , but such as have such an humble mind , free from ambition , as a little child hath , as our lord himself expounds it , mat. . , . but , saith he , christs testimony of them and his carriage towards them , shew that little children born in the church are accounted disciples of christ , and therefore commanded to be baptized with their believing parents . answ. mr. cotton himself confesseth , that it doth not appear that their fathers , who brought them , were baptized themselves ; how are they then said to be children born in the church , or to be baptized according to rule ? wherefore his own words shew it to be uncertainly , and therefore insufficiently alleged to prove that the infants of believers are among the blessed ones of christ , such as of whom his church and and kingdom consisteth , and so come under the fellowship of his disciples , whom christ commandeth to be baptized . and in very truth in that there is nothing apparent , whether the parents brought them or others , whether the parents were disciples or not : nor is any thing at all ascribed to the parents but to christs indulgence in this action , and it appears christ did not command them to be baptized , nor spake any thing as intituling them to discipleship and baptism , though he said , of such is the kingdom of god , this text is not only impertinently brought to prove the discipleship and baptizability of believers infants , but also makes to the contrary , that infants are not disciples nor baptizable , sith if they had been so christ would have so declared on this occasion , which was opportune for it . but there is yet another argument in that chapter of mr. cottons , and it is to this effect , that the commission mat. . . appoints believing parents to be baptized , and would infer , that in gods account , and in scripture phrase , parents themselves are not reputed of god to be baptized , if their children remain unbaptized . answ. but will any man believe mr. cotton in this , that in scripture phrase parents are not reputed of god to be baptized if their children remain unbaptized ? scripture speaks of thousands baptized , and mentions not the baptizing of any of their children under that relation as their children , shall we believe mr. cotton that those phrases of scripture , that say they were baptized , speak false ? and that they were not reputed of god to be baptized , because there is no mention of their childrens baptism ? many believers were baptized their children being infidels , mat. . . were not the parents reputed in gods account baptized because the children were against it ? but let us hear mr. cottons goodly proof in his own words . surely , saith he , in the old testament a man was accounted of god as uncircumcised himself , if his children were uncircumcised : for so it is written in exod. . . that if a man will come and keep the passeover , all the males in his house must be circumcised : and the reason given , is , for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof , which plainly argueth , that a man is uncircumcised himself , and ( as an uncircumcised person ) is to be debarred from the passeover , until all his males be circumcised . if then our lords supper come in the room of the passeover , and our baptism in the room of circumcision , look as he that had not circumcised his males was accounted as one uncircumcised himself , and so to be debarred from the passeover , so he who hath not baptized his children is accounted of god as not baptized himself , and so to be debarred from the lords supper . answ. that baptism and the lords supper come in the room of circumcision , and the passeover , is often said , but never proved . but if it were granted ( though i still deny it ) yet mr. cottons inference is not good , till it be also yielded , that every rule of circumcision , and the passeover is a rule to us about baptism and the lords supper , which me thinks he should not maintain . nor do i think he can give any reason why in this the rule should bind more than in others . yea did he consider it , he might have perceived , that if the proportion be stretched according to this rule , no parent must be counted baptized , nor to eat the lords supper , except he had not only all his children baptized ; but also all his servants . for the males to be circumcised were not only children , but servants also , and so those must be baptized who are out of covenant , and a national church must be fo●med like to the jews , which i think were hated of him as the blind and the lame were of davids soul. and methinks it should follow , that if it happen ( as it may happen many waies , especially in new england , where many baptized persons may not have their children baptized , because the parents are not church-members ) the infants be unbaptized the parent is to be baptized again , because counted of god , and according to scripture phrase , if mr. cottons dictates hold , unbaptized . which being absurd , i count his inference ( if therefore you forbid baptism to children , you evacuate the baptism of their parents , and so make the commandment of god , and the commission of the apostles , and the baptism of believers , of none effect , together with that other passage of his pag. . if godly parents do withdraw their children from the covenant , and the seal of the covenant , they do make void ( as much as in them lyeth ) the covenant , both to themselves , and to their children also . and then will the lord cut off such souls from his people , gen. . . ) to be meer mormoes or bugbears to fright children , though i am afraid they are used for a further evil end to incite magistrates a gainst antipaedo baptists , and to justify their hard dealing with then in new england . that which mr. cotton addes , that if we gather no infant are disciples from mark . . compared with matth. . ● ▪ because believer and disciple are terms of the same sense , and i● fants not believers , it would follow , that no infant were capable of salvation any more than baptism , i have answered in my praecursor s. . that which he speaks of the gospel , that the promise of being god to believers and their seed is to be preached as gospel according to mark . . and if his allegations of acts . . luke . . gal. ▪ , . be right , and his words true p. . god hath promised salvation to believers , and their seed , and house also , is so palpably false , that mr. marshal and mr. geree do both disclaim it as contrary to protestant doctrine , as i shew in my apology s. . that which he saith pag. . ( ' that the expounding baptizing into the father , son , and holy ghost mat. . . thus , baptize them into the true and orderly profession of that which they have been taught and believed , is to assert that we are to be baptized into the name of creatures for profession is an act of our own and so a creature , which he counteth an effect of gods judgement taking men in their own wiliness , while they turn the glorious name of the blessed trinity into the weak performance of a christian duty , is a frivolous quillet unfit for so grave a man , james ch . . . to anoint with oyl in the name of the lord , id est , saith beza , invocato nomine domini , the new annot. by calling on the name of the lord , which is a work of their own : do they therein turn the name of the glorious god into a creature ? but enough of this childish chapter of mr. cotton , in which i find so little worth answering , that were it not for the esteem he had , and his acquainting me with this piece in his letter to me , i should have chosen to have let it passe as not worth the labour bestowed in answering it . mr. william cook in his font uncovered pag. . brings acts . , . to prove that infants in their mothers arms were reckoned among disciples , and makes the enumeration there to answer deut. . , , . ezra . . and whereas it might be said that the children are distinguished from the disciples , he prevents this by retortion their wives are distinguished from disciples , yet might be disciples , so the children . answ. . the places are no way parralel in the matter , nor exactly in the enumeration made , in the former there is mention of servants , none here , all were of duty there to enter into covenant the whole nation together , not so here , in the later place no mention of wives , and the business was a solemn humiliation for them upon their return from captivity , but here only a courteous accompanying of paul to the ship . . i grant the wives are not necessarily excluded from being disciples , nor children by the enumeration acts . . nor are they necessary to be included : but how doth mr. cook prove the the children , babes carried in armes , or such little ones as had not abilities of understanding ? more likely , this thing being done by common consent , the wives and children were of years to conceive what they did , whether already baptized disciples or persons catechized and expectants it is uncertain . i shall now , finding nothing needing more answer in mr. cobbet part . ch . . s. . but what will fitly come in when i answer mr. baxter , pass on to the answering mr. baxters third chapter of the first part of his plain scripture proof , &c. where he thus argues . sect . xii . mr. bs. allegation of acts . . to prove infants disciples is fully answered & his arguments retorted . all that are christs disciples ordinarily ought to be baptized ; but some infants are christs disciples ; therefore some infants ordinarily ought to be baptized . he tells us how he means by [ disciples ] which meaning of his is before proved not to be the meaning of the text , and then saith , his major is evident in the text from the conjunction of the two commands : go make me disciples , baptizing them . if any shall be so quarrelsome against the plain tezt to say , it is not all disciples that they were commanded to baptize , but only all that were made disciples , and this making was onely by teaching . i answer , . if i prove infants disciples , i sure prove therby they were made so , or else they they had never been so . . by teaching the parents and children were both made disciples , the parents directly , the infants remotely or mediately : if they be proved once to be disciples , it will easily follow it is by this way . he that converteth the parent , maketh both him and his infants disciples incompleat or in title ; this therefore lies on the proof of the minor. . but i would say more to this , but that mr. t. ( as i understand ) hath in his sermons professed , that if we will prove that infants are christs disciples , he will acknowledge that they ought to be baptized : the like he granted to me ; and well he may . answ. . it is well mr. b. grants that to go make disciples , baptizing them , are two commands , and that there is a conjunction of them , whence it follows , that he appoints not baptizing till the making of disciples , nor of any but disciples made as christ appointed . . it is no quarrel against the plain text , but the very plain doctrine of the text to say , it is not all disciples ( visibly or invisibly , directly or remotely , compleatly , or incompleatly , in reality or in title ) that they were commanded to baptize , but only all that were made disciples , and this making was only by teaching or preaching the gospel to them mark . . . it is true , i have often granted , that if it be proved infants are christs disciples made by preaching to them the gospel , they ought to be baptized . but when i granted this , it did not come into my thoughts , that mr. b. would ever have hatched , much lesse have printed such wild nonsense fancies as here he doth , of a disciple by title without learning , like a king of jerusalem without reigning ▪ or the popes bishop of chalcedon without overseeing , of teaching remotely in the parents conversion without any personal teaching in themselves . for which fancies he neither brings a text of scripture , nor any approved author , nor any other besides himself thus speaking . such distinctions are but meer abuses as are without any instance of such an use of terms . and to shew the grossnesse of this foppery of mr. b. which a school ▪ boy may easily discern that hath gone no further than qui mihi discipul●s . i argue thus , . if he that converteth the parent maketh the infant a disciple , then either because the infant is an infant , and then evrey infant should be made a disciple by that conversion ; or because his child , and then every child is made a disciple , yea though he be a professed infidel ; or both , and then it would be shewed what grant there is to the child while infant , which ceaseth when grown up : where the relation of a disciple in his sense is appropriated only to infant child . yea all the plea is , by teaching the parents and children were both made disciples , therefore this relation comes from being a child of such a one : but the professed infidel child is the child of the father ; therefore also a disciple in title , and to be baptized after mr. bs. doctrine . . if children be made disciples remotely and mediately according to the command matth. . . in that the parent is converted , and that the teaching of the parent is the teaching of the child , then it follows , he that teacheth the father hath done his duty of teaching , though he teach not the child himself , and so a preacher need not at all go and catechize each child but only preach to parents . it would be ill with kederminster if it should be so there . but this follows according to mr. bs. exposition of christs command mat. . . . it will follow as well , that he that baptizeth the father baptizeth the child , for there is a conjunction of these commands , and the baptizing is to be correspondent to the teaching ; if then the teaching the parent is the teaching the child , then is the baptizing the parent the baptizing the child according to the command , and so the command is only to baptize in another him who is taught in another , and it is a gross transgression of christs command to baptize him in himself , who is only a disciple in another . . forasmuch as mr. b. doth not limit the childs being a disciple or teaching remotely to the next parents being converted , he that shall teach the grandfather , great grandfather , &c. teacheth the child , makes him a disciple , yea according to his doctrine pag. . he that converts the master of the house makes his servants , and those that are at his dispose , though not his children , ( whom he would have baptized ) disciples , for sure he would not have them baptized that are not disciples . now i appeal to any man of understanding whether this be not as gross and pernicious a delusion as hart the jesuit held ( so much exagitated in the conference by dr. raynold ch . . divis . . ) that the pope preacheth by another , to say he that teacheth the parent teacheth the child , assuredly had i ever dreamed that mr. b. had such phantastick , if not frantick notions , i had denyed his major , and do now expresly deny it in his sense , all that are christs disciples incompleatly , in title only , remotely by the parents conversion without their own ordinarily ought to be baptized , and expect it to be proved by him ad graecas calendas . nor would i have laid the stress of the argument on the proof of his minor , if i had understood his deceitful gibberish , by which he detestably abused many people , and perverted christs words . but it is my lot to answer such a writer and i follow him . he next goes about to prove his minor thus , [ that some infants are christs disciples , and so called by the holy ghost is most evident to any that will not grosly pervert the text or overlook it , in acts . . why tempt ye god to put a yoke on the neck of the disciples , which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear ? now who were these disciples ? no doubt those on whom the false teachers would have laid the yoke . and what was that yoke ? it is plain it was circumcision , as necessary and as engaging them to keep the law. and whom would they have perswaded thus to be circumcised ? why both the parents and children in that age , and only the children in all following ages ordinarily . so that thus i argu , those on whose necks the false teachers would have laid this yoke were disciples : but some , yea most of those were infants on whose necks they would have laid this yoke : therefore some infants are disciples , and so called here . the major is plain in the text. ] answ. the minor of mr. bs. argument , that infants are christs disciples , should not be understood of disciples in that sense , that christ appoints disciples to be baptized , matth. . . discipleship in mr. bs. sense in title without learning , by remote teaching in the parents conversion , being a sense unknown to the scripture , and a meer figment of mr. bs. brain , is falsly said to be a scribed to infants by the holy ghost , or to have any evidence in scripture for it : nor do i think any do more grosly pervert the text , acts . . or overloook it more than mr. b. but let us look a little nearer on mr. bs. arguings : he premiseth three questions , and answers them ; concerning which i grant his answer to the first , that those were disciples on whom the false teachers would have laid the yoke . in his second question and the answerly sundry fallacies , . in that he puts the question about the yoke what it was ; whereas the question that should have cleared the difficulty had been , what was the putting on of the yoke , ( which mr. b. doth i fear sophistically omit ) the point in question being who are meant by [ disciples ] and it being resolved by mr. b. those on whom the false teachers would have laid the yoke , the resolution must be not by knowing barely what the term [ yoke ] imported , but by knowing how they would lay the yoke , or what the act was of the false teachers , termed , laying a yoke on their necks . were the act effected or attempted , or intended onely , it 's that we must know what act it was , whether such as infants were the passive subjects of , or whether such onely as persons of age were capable of ? and here i conceive two ways they might be said to lay the yoke , one by cutting with their own hand off the little skin of the privy member , either of parents or children , or both , according to the rite of moses law ; the other by teaching , perswading , charging parents that they and their children should be circumcised , or else they should not be saved ; the former had been an act of their hands , this latter of their tongues ; the former onely can prove infants to be meant by [ disciples ] if this latter be meant , then infants are not meant by [ disciples ] for they were not subjects capable of that act . there was no act either effected or attempted on infants , but onely the act of the hand using an instrument to cut off the skin . if they had attempted to act on infants the later way , by telling sucking children , you are to be circumcised , and to keep moses law , they had done rather like mad men than cunning seducers . mr. b. himself , when in the next words [ and whom would they perswade to be circumcised ? ] and when after he confesseth , that which the false teachers did , was teaching , doth plainly intimate that the false teachers act , in putting on the yoke , was onely of the tongue , not of the hand , and therefore not infants the passive subject of it , and so not meant by disciples . yea , the text it self clears what their act was , when it says , v. . they taught the brethren , v. . they trouble● ▪ them with words , subverting their souls , saying . and this is enough to shew the foppery of mr. bs. and others , arguings hence to prove infants disciples , had they any minde to heed what is spoken . those onely are meant by disciples who were patients or passive subjects of the act of laying on the yoke : that is mr. bs. own major in effect : but infants were not such , for they were not taught , nor troubled with words , nor had their souls subverted by the sayings of false teachers ; therefore they were not the disciples meant acts . . . concerning the answer to the question , as he lays it down , [ that the yoke was circumcision , as necessary , and as engaging them to keep the law , ] it may be meant either of the command concerning circumcision , and so it is granted that the yoke was circumcision , that is , the command of circumcision propounded , and taught as necessary to the disciples , that they might be saved , and engaging them to keep moses law ; or by circumcision is meant circumcision in act , or actual circumcision , as passively received in the flesh , and this it seems mr. b. understands , sith it was it which was to be put on infants , and it onely , in which sense it is not meant acts . . as i have shewed . . the terms [ as necessary , and ingaging them to keep moses law ] may be understood variously , either as necessary and ingaging them in the opinion of the circumcised , so that the sense is , they would have laid the yoke on the necks of the disciples , so as that the disciples should have received circumcision with this opinion that thereby they were ingaged to keep moses his law , and in this sense it is true , the yoke was the command of circumcision to beget this opinion , or else in the opinion of the teachers or circumcisers onely , and so it is false , that the yoke was actual circumcision as necessary , and ingaging to keep moses law , they did not onely teach or circumcise , so as to have an opinion of this necessity , but so as to indeavour to possess those they would lay the yoke on , that it was necessary , and they were ingaged to keep moses law. as for his answer to the third question , according to the plain sense of the words , it is false , that they would have perswaded the children , i mean infant children , to be circumcised : for though they would perswade the parents to be circumcised , and then to circumcise their children , yet that they would have perswaded the children , that is , that any of them went to an infant and would have perswaded him to be circumcised , is false , and the thing would have been ridiculous . as for the argument from acts . . as it was framed by mr. m. i did exam. pag. . deny the major , and gave my reason , it is not said , they would put it onely on disciples , it is more probable they endeavoured to put it on the necks of all , whether disciples or others , as a thing universally necessary to salvation , v. . which mr. m. in his defence overthrows not , but puts it off without answer , onely imagines that then i cannot evince from matth. , . acts . , &c. that john and christs disciples baptized onely penitent believers . but i presume mr. m. will be better advised than to make it alike argumentative to prove all were disciples on whom the false teachers would have put the yoke , from acts . and to prove that there was baptism in the new testament but of penitent believers , from the perpetual course of the history thereof , in the former disciples being onely mentioned occasionaly in condemning a fact done to them , in the other are set narrations of acts done in the church of god , and therefore there would have been a defect in the narration if there had been any other than penitent believers then baptized , but mr. b. pleads thus , if any will say , that it is not all , but some of those on whom they would have laid the yoke that are here called disciples , that is onely them at age , i answer , then it is but some onely whose circumcision the apostle and the synod doth conclude against , that is those of age . for he speaks against laying the yoke on none but disciples , and then for any thing the apostle saith , or this synod , all infants might be circumcised still : which is a most grosse absurdity , when the very business of this synod was to decree against the necessity of circumcision and the law. to which i replied , i denied the major as expressed by mr. m. thus [ all they upon whose necks those false teachers would have put the yoke of circumcision are called disciples and to be called disciples ] because i conceived they would by their teaching put a necessity of circumcision even on unconverted jews who are no disciples , yea upon all persons whatsoeuer , holding of all sorts of persons that except they were circumcised and kept the law of moses they could not be saved . and in like sort i deny the major of mr. bs. argument if it be universal , all those on whose necks the false teachers would have laid the yoke mentioned acts . . were disciples . nor is it plain in the text , there is no more plain in the text but this , that the persons expressed acts . . on whom the false teachers would have layd the yoke were disciples . but it doth not follow that they would have layd the yoke on none other than are there expressed , as when it is sayd , christ would have gathered the children of jerusalem , matth. . . though none but the children of jerusalem are there expressed , yet it follows not all are the children of jerusalem whom he would have gathered . nor doth that imaginary grosse absurdity follow which mr. b. would fasten on this deniall of his major . for . there are in the synods letter both v. . condemning the false teachers doctrine , and v. . . laying no other burden on them to whom they wrot , plain pasages exempting old and yong from circumcision , though v. . were left out . . even in that , v. . peter reproves their putting a yoke on the neck of the aged , he doth determine parents not bound to circumcise their children , and this is a conclusion against circumcision of infants , as a canon against priests marriage is a law against their wives living with them ; and the concluding against a practise in some upon a common reason , to others is a general prohibition , as the apostles determination acts . . is a determination against the like in others . but however , this is enough to answer mr. bs. argument ; and some perhaps would yield his minor , yet i deny it , and doubt not to shew that in the thing wherein he is most confident , in so much that in his epistle before his saints everlasting rest , he makes me with others play the devil in accusing my own children as no disciples , when god saith the contrary , ( o utinam ! ) acts . . he is an egregious trifler . to prove his minor , he thus argues , i prove it was the infants also , thus , if it were infants also whom the false teachers would have had to be circumcised as necessary , and as engaging to moses law , then it was infants also on whom they would have laid the yoke ; but it was infants also whom they would have had circumcised , &c. therefore , &c. the antecedent is undeniable . but it is the consequence mr. t. denieth ; for he saith , it is not circumcision as necessary , and as engaging to moses law , which was the yoke , but it was the doctrine of those teachers . but was mr. t. of this minde when he wrote these words ? exam. p. . answ. . should the conclusion be granted him , that they were infants also whom the false teachers would have had to be circumcised , &c. yet sith he grants , that they would have had the fathers circumcised , they onely may be meant by [ disciples ] though circumcision were yielded to be the yoke . . circumcision is no way necessary , that i know , but as commanded , nor engaging to keep moses law , but as taught , and yielded to . and therefore i know not what sense mr. bs. words have , that it was infants also whom the false teachers would have had to be circumcised as necessary , and as engaging to moses law , but one of these , they would have them circumcised , having this opinion , that it was necessary , and did engage , or that they taught circumcision as a necessary command , and as engaging to moses law , and in this latter sense i should not have sayd , ( if i did say it ) that it is not circumcision as necessary , and as engaging to moses law , which was the yoke , but it was the doctrine of those teachers ; but rather have sayd , it was circumcision as necessary , and engaging to moses law , which was the yoke , that is , the doctrine of those teachers . but because mr. bs. expression is du●ious , or nonsense , and that which he mainly bends himself to prove , is , that it was not the doctrine which was the yoke to be put on disciples , ( for then there would have been no colour to expound [ disciples ] of infants ) but circumcision in act , or acted on the flesh , though as a blinde he add those words , as necessary and engaging to moses law , therefore i denied the consequence , as if those words were left out , which indeed he himself leaves out in the proof of his antecedent , proving onely they would have had them circumcised , without saying any thing , to prove they would have had them circumcised under this formal consideration or respect , as yielding to the necessity of it , and engaging themselves thereby to keep moses law. but if he put in those words in the minor , in this sense , i deny it also . as for the consequence there is no proof brought for it to confirm it , but by overthrowing the reason i gave of denying it , so that had i given no reason of denying it ▪ there had been brought no proof . but as yet i do not apprehend , though i had granted him , that circumcision was the yoke , and not the doctrine , ( which i do not ) that yet it would have followed , that if the false teachers would have had the infants circumcised they were those also on whom they would have layd the yoke , for they might have attempted to lay the yoke of circumcision on the parents , and so the laying on of the yoke might be onely the circumcising the parents , though they would have also the infants circumcised . but it being true , that i gave that reason of my denial of mr. bs. consequence , that i may the more abundantly shew the futility of his foolishly magnified dispute , i will engage with him even upon that point also . and to clear my meaning , it is true , exam. pag. . i said , the yoke , acts . . was circumcision , as mr. m. himself declared , pag. . of his sermon , and all the legal ceremonies , and the reason why i used that expression was , because i alleged mr. ms. words . but that i meant not circumcision in act , or as acted on the flesh to be the yoke , but circumcision in command , as commanded and imposed on the conscience , appears by the words following : if it be a privilege to be free from circumcision it is a privilege to be free from any ordinance in the room and use of it , it was the ordinance then , i made the yoke . and my minde is expressed thus , pag. . the putting the yoke of circumcision is not actual circumcision in their flesh , for that they were able to bear for many ages , but the necessity of it on mens consciences to salvation . in my antidote , sect . . i deny it to be actual circumcision , but somtimes call it the doctrine or opinion of the necessity of it . in my book of scandalizing i call it the ordinances of the jews . in my praecursor , pag. . the doctrines and commands : but most plainly i express my self in my praecursor , pag. . in my answer to the th absurdity mr. b. chargeth me with , pag. . of his plain scripture proof , &c. where i make it the yoke of doctrine , or the command of circumcision , and shew , that not onely grotius , but also pareus , piscator , diadati , the new annot. so expressed it . this then is my constant judgment , . that the yoke , acts . . is not actual circumcision or circumcision in act , that is , as acted on the flesh , which alone serves for mr. bs. turn to prove infants disciples , for no more would they have done to infants . . that the putting the yoke is teaching the necessity of it , or the command of god still binding their consciences , of which act the infants were not subjects recipient . . that the yoke as from the false teachers was the doctrine , or command of circumcision and other precepts of the law , which sundry learned men in their notes on matth. . . gather to be meant by the yoke , comparing these places with john . . what is matth. . . called christs yoke , is john . . called his commandments , and doctrinal commands , or as the expression is , matth. . . doctrines , commands , are called burdens , matth. . luke . . rev. . . as it is taken passively , that is , to be received by the person yoked or taught is the opinion of the necessity of these unto salvation , or as mr. b. himself after cals it the judgment of it . . that by the disciples are meant the converted christians of the gentiles called the brethren , v. . those that from the gentiles turn to god , v. . the brethren of the gentiles , v. . mr. blake vindic. foederis , pag. . complaint is made , acts . . that those that urged the necessity of circumcision put a yoke on the necks of the disciples , which neither they nor their fathers were able to bear ; they urged it upon all in visible profession , and not upon regenerate ones alone . . that by their necks is meant not their flesh or skin , but their consciences . let 's now see what mr. b. brings to prove the yoke acts . . to be actual circumcision , or in act , that is , acted on their flesh , and not the doctrine or command of circumcision , or that the putting the yoke was in their flesh by cutting off the skin , not in their consciences by teaching . . saith he , the text saith so three times over , [ that it was circumcision as necessary and engaging to moses law , that was that yoke ] v. . they taught the brethren , except ye be circumcised after the manner of moses ye cannot be saved : and v. . they taught , it was needfull to circumcise them , and to command them to keep the law of moses : and v. . saying , ye must be circumcised , and keep the law. answ. there 's not a word in either of the three verses , that says so expresly , or by any good consequence , that the yoke v. . is circumcision actual or in act , that is , acted or to be acted on the flesh . mr. b. me thinks if he could have made any good inference from thence , for his conclusion , should have formed it , being not ignorant that in my antidote i bring these very verses and words to prove the contrary . . saith he , it appears evidently from the same , v. . the yoke which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear , that which neither their fathers nor they were able to bear , was the yoke there meant : but it was circumcision as necessary , and engaging to keep the law , and not the doctrine of the false apostles , which their fathers and they were not able to bear , therefore , &c. the major is in the text ; the minor is plain ; . in that there is no mention in the scripture of the fathers being so burdened with that false doctrine ; but that there is mention enough of their being burdened with the law , and circumcision as engaging to it . . it was true and good doctrine before christ which these false apostles taught , viz. that except they were circumcised , and kept the law , they could not be saved : i mean as to the jews it was true , ( for i will not now meddle with that great controversie whether the gentiles were bound to keep moses law. i know not what grotius , franzius , &c. say on one side , and cloppen burgius , and many more on the other . ) answer . this passage i also allege against mr. bs. opinion , in my antidote sect . . to prove that it is not circumcision in act but in command or doctrine that is there meant by the yoke . but that we may determine the thing it is to be considered : . who [ we and our father ] are : . in what part or respect , and how it was intolerable . doubtless by [ we ] the apostle means the modern jews , and by [ our fathers ] the jewes of former times . the intolerableness was not to their flesh , as diodati speaks , for the labour in observing it , for though it be true that it was very irksom to observe circumcision , and the rites of moses law , yet circumcision was possible to be born , especially by an infant , though , in the end and intent of the circumcisers it was done as necessary and engaging to keep moses law , yet the infants being not sensible thereof , it was not intolerable to them . and the apostle paul , phil. . . speaks of himself , as touching the righteousness of the law , blameless . but it was intolerable to their mindes and consciences , by reason of the imperfection of it to quiet the conscience , and the condemnation it bound to for not keeping it in , saith diodati locum . and therefore it was the command and doctrine that was intolerable to persons on whose consciences the law was imposed , not the acting circumcision , or circumcision acted , which alone was put on infants , and consequently the yoke is not what was imposed on infants , but on persons taught and commanded . as for mr. bs. reasons , the first he himself answers by his second . for he saith that doctrine was true to the jews before christ , therefore sure the fathers were acquainted with it , it was doctrine known among them whether the scripture mention it or no ; and whether it were true or false if it were received by them it must needs be burdensome to them . and for his second : . that it was true doctrine to the jews before christ that except they were circumcised after the maner of moses they could not be saved , and that it was needfull to circumcise them , and to command them to keep the law , v. . . is in my apprehension diametrally opposite to pauls doctrine , gal. . & . & . & . rom. . & . & . phil. . concerning the non-necessity of observing the law for justification , justification by faith without the works of the law both in abrahams , davids , moses his time . . if the doctrine were true to the jews , it was the more intolerable , it wouldly the more heavy on their consciences , finding themselves unable to observe it ; therefore this reason is against mr. b. and proves the doctrine was the yoke . but he adds , mr. t. saith it was the pharisees doctrine of being justified by the law which was the yoke . but i answer , . the pharisees were not of so long continuance as to be the burden of the fathers by their doctrine . . these in the text taught but a necessity that those who believed in christ should be circumcised and keep the law : so did not the pharisees . answ. . those in the text taught not onely a necessity that those who believed in christ should be circumcised , and keep the law , by way of precept , but also of means , that except they did so , they could not be saved , and that was still taken by the apostle in the epistles to the romans , galatians , philippians , as the doctrine of justification by the law. and that this was the yoke which was so intolerable , acts . . appears by the next words , ver . . but we trust or believe to be saved by the grace of the lord jesus christ , even as also they . the term [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but ] being adversative , shews the apostles assertion , v. . to contain an antithesis to their thesis or doctrine , that is , whereas they impose this intolerable yoke of doctrine , that without circumcision , and keeping the law , disciples cannot be saved , we believe they may be saved by the grace of our lord jesus christ , purifying their hearts by faith , v without the observation of moses law. . it is not true , that they taught onely a necessity that those who believed in christ should be circumcised , and keep the law ; as if they exempted others . for though there is mention onely of their teaching the brethren , yet doubtless they held a like necessity of it , or rather a greater , for jews . whether converted or unconverted , as for christian gentiles . . but were it true , that they taught but a necessity that those who believed in christ should be circumcised , and keep the law , yet the doctrine might be an intolerable yoke both to disciples , and to the ancestors from whomsoever they learn'd it . whose doctrine soever it were , yet it was a yoke intolerable to present disciples and the predecessors of former generations . . the antiquity of the pharisees is variously conceived by writers ; it is conceived that sect began three hundred years before the birth of christ , by some higher ; sure they were ancient enough to burden the fathers , that is , the ancestours of the modern jews , when peter spake those words . . were it that others spake that doctrine , and burdened the fathers with it , yet it might be well called by me the pharises doctrine , who taught it afterwards . . that mr. bs. willingness to cavil may appear , let v. . be read , and there it is said , the false teachers were of the sect of the pharisees . . saith mr. b. the doctrine is no further a yoke than as it hath reference to circumcision , and keeping the law , in practice , and as it prevaileth to bring them to the belief and practice ; therefore it is evident , that the doctrine is not the yoke ; but the judgment and practice which that doctrine did teach them ; else it would be in the power of men to yoke and burden us at their pleasure : but till we obey it we are free from the yoke ; therefore the yoke lieth not in the doctrine , but the obeying . answ. this argument however faulty , yet it plainly crosseth mr. bs. purpose ; for his aim is to expound the yoke , so as that it may be said , to be laid on infants , and so they be reckoned for disciples ; but if it be that the judgment and practice which the doctrire did teach were the yoke , if the yoke didly in obeying , as he here saith , then the yoke was not put or endeavoured to be put on infants , the false teachers neither did put nor endeavoured to put any thing on the judgment or practice of infants , nor to have brought them to obeying . what was to be done to them was not to be done by false teachers , but the parents ; there was no act to be done on the infants mindes , consciences , judgments , but on their flesh , nor were they to be active in practice , or willing in obedience , but meerly passive , and likely very unwillingly . and therefore i infer from mr. bs. own argument , if the doctrine were no further a yoke , than as it hath reference to circumcision , and keeping the law , in practice , and as it prevaileth to bring them to the belief and practice , that the yoke is the judgment and practice , which the doctrine did teach , that it lieth in the obeying , then it is no yoke to infants , then it is not circumcision as acted but as taught and yielded to , then it was not to be put on infants , and consequently no infants are meant by the disciples , acts . . but for the thing objected , as i have sayd before , the doctrine may be considered either in se , in it self , as it came from the teachers , or in the event to the persons taught , being yielded to by them : it is true , the doctrine was not à yoke to the disciples eventually , till the disciples yielded to it , but it was in it self a yoke , and might so be called before , as the truth of christ is the gospel or glad ●idings in it self , and may be , and is often so called , though it prove not so to all that hear it . wherefore i have sometimes called the yoke the command , sometimes the doctrine , sometimes the necessity of observation , sometimes the opinion of the necessity , and all these in different respects are rightly made the yoke , in respect of god the command and necessity of observance , of the teachers the doctrine , of the persons yoked the opinion and judgment , when it becomes such in the event , not onely in fieri , but in facto esse , yet no way barely circumcision acted on infants , and consequently they not disciples , acts . . which conceit is plainly overthrown by mr. bs. own argument . . saith mr. b. [ that which this synod did decree against , and peter here spoke against , that was the yoke here meant . but it was circumcision as needfull , and engaging to keep the law , which this synod decreed against , and peter here spoke against : therefore this circumcision was the yoke . the minor is evident in the the three verses before named , and in the whole chapter . who dare say that this synod did not decree against circumcision and keeping the law ? and the major is as plain ; and yet the very sum and strength of all that mr. t. hath to say against this text is here , which seems apparently to me to be but a meer cavilling with the plain scripture . ] answ. all this may be justly retorted . that which this synod did decree against , and peter here spake against , that was the yoke here meant : but it was not barely circumcision as acted on infants , but circumcision as taught , the command , doctrine , obligation , necessity of it to salvation , & opinion of that necessity urged on disciples by teaching , which this synod decreed against , and peter here spoke against : therefore this doctrine , command , obligation , necessity , opinion of circumcision and keeping the law urged on persons taught was the yoke , & not barely circumcision as acted on infants by parents , after the manner , and by virtue of moses law. the minor is evident in the three verses before named , and in the whole chapter . who dare say that this synod did not decree against the command , doctrine , obligation , necessity , opinion of circumcision , and and keeping the law ? and yet the very sum and strength of all mr. b. hath to say against this text is here , which seems apparently to me to be but a meer cavilling with the plain scripture . but he adds of me , [ he saith that the synod decreed against circumcision but by consequence , and not expresly ; and that the thing they directly and expresly decreed against , and peter spoke against , was not the yoke it self , but the putting the yoke on them , which was the act of the false teachers in teaching . ] answ. that which the synod decreed against , and peter spake against , i say was not barely circumcision as acted on infants , no● circumcision acted on infants immediately , but the command , doctrine , obligation , necessity and opinion of necessity of circumcision , and keeping the law to salvation , and consequently the infants circumcision , which how or in what sense they are the yoke , and what the putting on of the yoke is , hath already been often shewed . but saith mr. b. [ . if this were granted , yet neither directly nor consequently do they decree against the circumcising of any but disciples , and therefore infants must needs be part of those disciples . ] answer . that which peter spoke against was the practise of the false teachers , v. . the decree of the synod was expresly , . a condemnation of the false teachers practice , v. . . a release to gentile disciples of other commands called bardens save onely some excepted , v. , . acts . . and it is true that these decrees are directed onely to the disciples of the gentiles for the freeing of their consciences . but it is false that they decree against the circumcising of none but disciples . it is true the decree is not for the release of burdens to any but disciples : but he that releaseth the burden that is the command of circumcision to the father who is a disciple , doth withall by plain consequence free the childe from circumcision , and yet the childe no disciple . . saith mr. b. but the text expresseth actual circumcision three times over . answ. and it expresseth also keeping the law , doth it therefore follow that the yoke , acts . . is the actual keeping the law , and that this might be put on infants . . saith he , [ it is undeniable in the , . v. that it was matter of their practice , as directly as the false apostles teaching , and much more which was decreed against . it seemed good to the holy ghost and to us , to lay upon you no greater burdens than these necessary things : that ye abstain from meats offered to idols &c. mark . their practice is the thing decreed upon expresly , and not the doctrine of the false teacher ( though that is implied ) they do not say we do not decree , that they preach so no more , but that you abstain , &c. answ. . mr. bs. speeches seem to enterfer , when he saith , v. . it was the matter of their practice as directly as the false apostles teaching , and much more , which was here decreed against , doth he not confess that the false apostles teaching was directly decreed against , though not so much ? yet presently he bids , mark , that it is not the doctrine of the false teachers that is decreed upon expresly ( though that is implied ) yet by [ directly and expresly ] he seems to mean the same . . what if v. ● , . decree not expresly against the doctrine of the false teachers , yet if it were implied it was decreed against . . if it were not expresly decreed upon , v. , . is it not enough that it was expresly decreed against , v. . ? . though they do not say v. . we decree that they preach so no more , yet when they say , it seemed good to the holy ghost and to us to lay upon you no greater burdens than these necessary things , this is an express decree against the doctrine of those false teachers , v. . except ye be circumcised after the manner of moses ye cannot be saved , and v. . that it was needful to circumcise them , and to command them to keep the law of moses . . saith mr. b. this is it also which is here called [ the burden ] in the sense , no doubt , with that which before was called the yoke , no greater burden or yoke . and can any impartial mans conscience tell him that the onely chief question here debated and determined was , whether the false apostles should any more preach such doctrine . and not rather whether the disciples ought to be circumcised and keep the law of moses . answ. if the burden and yoke be the same , then the yoke v. . is not that which was put on infants . for the burden v. . is called [ command ] v. ▪ and this was opposit to the false teachers saying to command them to keep the law of moses v. . and by burdens elsewhere are meant commands o● doctrine , or doctrinal commands matth. . luke . . rev●l . . . now commands were not attempted to be put on infants who could not understand them . . if the practise were the yoke , then it was not on infants who were not urged to pract●e but to suffer , specially taking in what mr. b. before said , it was the judgment and practice which the doctrine did teach which was the yoke . and to his questions i say , the false teachers doctrine and the disciples practise were both in question , and both determined in the synod , and therefore both decreed against , and so the doctrine is the yoke in respect of the yoakers , and the judgment and practise in respect of the yoaked . . saith mr. b. it was the church of antioch and not the false teachers that sent to ierusalem for resolution . . and it was to the brethren , and not to the false teachers that the synod did direct their letters , and decrees : therefore it was the disciples practise that is more directly decreed against ( or at least as much ) than the doctrine of the teachers . answ. be the conclusion granted , yet the doctrine is decreed against , and consequently is meant by the yoke v. . even according to mr. bs. argument , that which the synod did decree against was the yoke here meant . but doth not mr. b. in these words plainly intimate that disciples are the same with brethren , to whom the letters were directed , which sure were not infants ? it is true the church of antioch , and not the false teachers , sent to jerusalem for resolution , and that the letters were directed not to the false teachers , but brethren called believers , acts . . yet they sent about the false teachers doctrine , and the decree and speech were against that doctrine : even as the decrees or canons of councils are against the doctrine of heretikes though sent to the churches . from all which i infer that mr. bs. reasoning is frivolous , and while he oppose●h i● , his own arguments prove , that the doctrine of the false teachers is the yoke . but he hath not yet done . . saith he , if it were granted as mr. t. would have it , that it is onely putting on the yoke that is here expressely decreed against , and the yoke or practise it self but onely by consequence , then he would make this synod so weak as to leave the matter imperfect and obscure , which they were to determine expresly : and perhaps it might put him hard to it to prove that consequence : for it will not alway follow that what may not be taught may not be practised , as i could shew in several cases . answ. i hold the synod to decree expressely against the yoke , understanding by it the doctrine of the necessity of circumcision , the obligation and opinion of its necessity , and the pu●ting of the yoke , that is the teaching this doctrine to disciples , and by consequence against the gentiles believing parents practice of circumcising their infants as of duty , nor do i know how any other way mr. b. can gather it from the epistle of the synod than as i do ; sure in all the epistle i finde not any other way to prove gentile believers are not bound to circumcise their children , but by urging the words v. . . in which parents are not discharged of circumcising infants expresly in so many words , but by consequence . and yet the matter is not left imperfect or obscure , but there is an express determination against that which was the occasion of the synod , to wit the doctrine of the false teachers , v. . nor is the consequence hard to infer , if the apostles give no command to the gentile parents to be circumcised ▪ and to keep the law , then parents are not tied to circumcise their infants , there being no necessity or duty to them who have no command or burden put on them . mr. b. mistakes in conceivng i framed the consequence thus : what the false apostles might not teach , the parents might not practice . and therefore though he could shew in many more cases than he can , that it will not alway follow that what may not be taught may not be practiced , the consequence as i frame it may be clear , & the determination of the synod express and perfect . but he adds : . and me thinks we may be allowed to prove baptism of infants by consequence : if this synod assembled of purpose about circumcision and the law did yet leave them nothing but consequence against it . answ. i never said , that the synod left nothing but consequence against circumcision and the law ; nor did i disallow at any time the proving of infants baprism by consequence , but have often declared the contrary , though mr. m. most unbrotherly charged me with it , pag. . of his defence , but absolved me of it , pag. . as i shew in my apology , sect . . and in my praecursor , sect . . but having so long expected some proof by consequence for infant-baptism , and finding upon trial in so many authors as have occurred nothing worth the name of a proof , i conclude there is no such thing , but that paedobaptists , and none more than mr. b. do onely gull the world , and which is more to be detested , the godly , and of those , many that are teachers of others , with flourishes and shews , instead of proof , in so much as some who are of able parts magnifie his book about infants baptism as excellent , whether it be out of rashness , or for advantage sake to themselves , finde it upon strictest examination to be but a meer cheat . but mr. b. hath one string more to his bowe . . further , saith he , that it was circumcision it self as needfull , and as engaging to moses law , which is here meant , is plain in gal. . , , . no doubt either those that mis-taught the galatians were the same with those or their companions teaching the same doctrine , and therefore paul there decideth the same cause ; and mark what he cals the yoke , stand fast in the liberty wherewith christ hath made us free , and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage . behold , i paul say unto you , that if ye be circumcised , christ shall profit you nothing . for i testifie again to every m●n that is circumcised , that he is a debtor to the whole law. is not he wilfull that yet will say , the yoke is onely the doctrine of the false . teachers , and not circumcision as engaging to keep the law. answ. . mr. b. before p. . said , that it is evident the doctrine is not the yoke ; here when he saith , is not he wilfull that yet will say that the yoke is onely the doctrine of the false teachers ? he doth plainly intimate that he excepts not against the holding the yoke to be the doctrine , but the holding it to be onely the doctrine of the false teachers , which is me thinks to contradict himself , and to overthrow what he contends for , to wit , the yoke is that which was put on infants : but the doctrine was not put on infants , and therefore if the doctrine were in part the yoke , and this not put on infants , then the yoke was not put on infants , then it is not absurd for me to expound the yoke of the doctrine of the false teachers , and his arguments against that exposition are answered by his own concession . . if it be true , that either those that mis-taught the galatians were the same with these false teachers , acts . . or their companions teaching the same doctrine , then it is most false which mr. b. teacheth , pag. . it was true , and good doctrine before christ , which these false apostles taught , viz. that except they were circumcised , and kept the law , they could not be saved ; i mea● as to the jews it was true . now the doctrine of those that mis-taught the galatians , was justification by the law , as appears by the apostles opposition , gal. . , . & . . , , . & . . & . . and this was the same with the doctrine of the false teachers , as appears from acts . , , , . and mr. b. confesseth it to be the same . but that doctrine the apostle denies to have been true and good before christ to the jews , gal. . & . and elsewhere , and therefore mr. b. contradicts the apostle , and his speech overthrows the gospel , and avows keeping of the law necessary to justification and salvation , to have been true and good doctrine to the jews afore christ. . he is not wilfull but considerate , that by the yoke of bondage , gal. . . understands not circumcision as acted on infants , that is the bare passive reception of circumcision , of which onely infants are capable , no nor perhaps ( for that is disputed ) all willing receiving of circumcision as the habassi●e christians do , but the willing subjecting to circumcision according to the command of moses , and the doctrine of the teachers that urged it as necessary for justification and salvation . for herein , . they have many of the best sort of protestant writers on their side ▪ . they have these reasons for them , . because the exhortation , gal. . is inferred from his determination in the precedent chapter , from v ▪ to the end , to wit , that the covenant of the law did beget to bondage , and that they were children of the free woman , and therefore the yoke of bondage is not simply circumcision as acted , but as mr. dicson expresseth it , the yoke of the covenant of works and legal ceremonies . . because [ if ye be circumcised , v. . ] is expounded rightly , if ye be willingly circumcised , upon the opinion , and according to the doctrine of the false teachers to seek justification thereby , as the reasons of the apostle , v. . do evidently shew . . otherwise timothy might be said to be entanged with the yoke of bondage when he was circumcised , acts . . which being so , this argument ( as all the rest of mr. bs. arguments ) is against him . for if the false teachers were the same , and the yoke the same , acts . . gal. . . and the yoke , gal. . . be not circumcision as acted on infants , but the covenant of works , and circumcision as taught and yielded to by the circumcised under the notion of necessity for justification , and obligation thereby to keep the whole law , then the yoke was not that which is put on infants , nor any infants meant by disciples , acts . . sect . xiii . the arguments are vindicated , which are brought to prove infants not meant by disciples , acts . . but mr. b. proceeds , well , but mr. t. hath one argument for his conceit , and but one that i have heard , and that is like the conceit it self . if ( saith he ) putting on the yoke be onely by teaching , then the yoke it self is onely the doctrine , and consequently it was to be put on none but those that could be taught . answ. . i deny both the consequences , and he will never prove them . for , . by [ putting ] he confesseth is meant [ an endeavour to put ] therefore it must be more than bare doctrine . and if by doctrine they perswade the people of the necessity of practice in so doing , they put on them both the mis-belief and the practice . answ. mr. b. it seems either did not reade , or not heed , or forgot what was in examen . pag. . when he saith , he had heard but of one argument for my conceit , though it be his meer ignorance that makes him call it my conceit , as if it were my peculiar conceit ; whereas his own conceit is scarce any thing older than himself , and mine agreeable to the exposition of the best and elder interpreters . and however when mr. b. wrote this he might know of no more arguments against his conceit , yet there are more i● my antidote , sect . . to which with this here i shall review his answers . my argument in form is this , they onely are meant by disciples , acts . who were to be the subjects passive or recipient of the act of the false teachers whether effected or attempted , that is of that which they would have done to them . but no infants were to be the subjects passive or recipient of the act of the false teachers whether effected or attempted , that is of that which they would have done to them . ergo. the major is plain to common understanding , according to all rules of logick and grammar . so we argue , they must be meant by all men , john . . when christ saith , i will draw all men to me , who were the subjects recipient of the act of drawing . every particular man is not the subject of christs drawing , therefore [ all men ] doth not note every particular man. innumerable such arguments are among writers ecclesiastical and civil , nor is there any thing more plain to common understanding the minor is proved thus : the onely act of the false teachers by which the yoke was to be put on disciples was teaching , or that which they would have done to them was onely teaching . but of this act no infant was the passive subject . ergo. the former is confessed by himself in calling it perswading , and if it were not , the text proves it , v. . ▪ ▪ the minor is manifest , they were neither capable of it , nor were the false teachers so sensless as to endeavour it . but let 's view mr. bs. answer . he denies this consequence , if the putting on the yoke be onely by teaching , then the yoke it self is onely the doctrine . but this is not my consequence , but this , if their act of putting on the yoke were onely teaching then the terminus , at least immediate , must be doctrine in respect of the agent , and in respect of the patient learning , as if the act of the sun be teaching , the immediate terminus is heat , although other effects follow , as dryness or the like ; so if the false teachers did put the yoke on the disciples by teaching , they did put doctrine on them , and if they received it they learned that doctrine , although other effects followed , as disquietnes of minde , &c. which may be comprehended under the metaphor of a yoke . by teaching parents , an infant is not cut or cicumcised , no not though the parents receive the doctrine , he may have no childe to circumcise , or no strength , or the like : no though it come to pass that the childe be circumcised , yet this is not done by the false teacher , but by the parent . if then their act was onely teaching , then the product result or terminus must be doctrine , though there were other consequents to follow . but mr. b. denies also this consequence , that if the yoke were onely doctrine , it was put on none but those that could be taught . whereto i reply , he may as well deny the snow to be white , as deny it : can any put doctrine but on persons that can be taught ? what is this but to hold that a person may have doctrine put on him , that cannot be taught , which is a meer contradiction , all one as to say , he may be taught that cannot be taught . but he will forsooth give us some reason of his denial as wise as the rest . for , . by [ putting ] he confesseth is meant [ an endeavour to put ] therefore it must be more than the bare doctrine . answ. . i confess not by [ putting ] is meant [ an endeavour to put ] though i confess that peter accu●eth them onely of their endeavour to put the yoke . . if i had confessed it , yet mr. bs. reason is foolish , for it would rather follow , that it is less than bare doctrine , the endeavour to put being less than putting . yet it is not true that i said , the yoke notes bare doctrine , without any other effect , but that the yoke notes doctrine , command , opinion of obligation , and necessity , and perhaps disquietness , trouble , care , fear consequent . however they that put the yoke by teaching did put doctrine on whom they put the yoke , the putting the yoke being nothing but teaching . that which follows , and if by doctrine they prevail to perswade the people of the necessity of practice in so doing , they put on them the both the mis-belief and mis-practice , is as little to purpose . for , . to put on them the misbelief is to put on them the doctrine , for doctrine is put on by being learned or believed . . they that do prevail do put on the mispractice it may be in the event , but not barely by their putting on their doctrine , for it may be they may both teach , and that effectually , so as that the person do learn or mis-believe , and yet not mis-practice through many intervenient impediments , yea though he do mis-practice , yet the mis-practice is not the terminus of his teaching , nor is he the mis-practicer , it is not his act logically or physically , though it be his morally , that is , the fault of it be imputed to him , as arising from the doctrine be taught . however if it be by perswading and by producing mis-belief and mis-practice , they onely are the subjects of it who mis-believe and mis practice , which being not verified of infants , they are not meant by disciples , on whom the yoke is put . but mr. b. gives a reason of his denial of the latter consequence , and it is this , . the latter consequence is as false ; for he that perswadeth a parent to circumcise himself , and his childe , doth as properly put that burden of circumcision on the childe as on the parent . though he teach onely the parent , yet by teaching the parent he puts the burden on both . answ. . if the putting the yoke be teaching or perswading , sure he onely is the subject of his putting the yoke , who is the subject of his teaching , ( as if we say the killing there was wounding by the sword , it folows he was not there said to be killed who was not wounded by the sword ) though it may be true also that another agent by another act may put the burden on one not taught . . but were mr. bs. speech true , yet it is nothing to his wi●less denial of the later consequence , for the consequence is thus , if the yoke were onely doctrine it was put on none but those that could be taught , which may be undeniable , though it be granted , that he that teacheth onely tho parents , yet puts the burden both on parent and child . . yea mr. b. doth grant it by supposing that he teacheth onely the parent , that doctrine is put onely on the parent . for what is it to put doctrine on any but to teach him ? and therefore if the yoke were onely doctrine , sure it was put on none but such as could be taught , unless we imagine that doctrine can be put on those that cannot be taught , which is all one in my apprehension as to say they may be taught who cannot be taught . and therefore if there be any silly wranglings in the dispute between us , sure mr. b. doth wrangle here either as a silly man or as a most perverse man in denying this consequence , and in his whole arguings about this text , when confessing the yoke to be not onely the doctrine but the judgment and practise also of circumcision , and that the false teachers would put it onely by teaching , yet doth imagine he can perswade his reader to be so silly as to conceive that they did any thing to infants or that infants are any of those disciples mentioned acts . . and here i shall inforce the arguments of my antidote sect . . the first is ad hominem . he counts it a heinous offence that i take the word [ holy cor. . . ] in a different sense than it is used six hundred times in the scripture , and yet ●e takes the word [ disciple ] used three hundred times in the new testament , and of those about one hundred in lukes writings for one that is a disciple by owning a teacher and his doctrine , in another sense o● rather nonsense acception for one that is a disciple in title , incompleat , without actual learning for present , that is for a meer relative without a foundation , and brings no place in any author for this sense but this , and therefore i may more justly use his conju●ing speech p. . requiring men that are not of desper 〈◊〉 resolutions and prostituted consciences to consider faithfully how they can answer the lord christ for perverting so solemn an institution as that is matth. . . by their baby sprinkling , when the very words of christ , practise of the apostles , constant use of the word [ disciples ] throughout the new testament , common consent of interpreters shews christ appointed disciples onely to be baptized ordmarily , who were made such by preaching the gospel , upon pretence that infants are called [ disciples acts . ] in a sense different from what luke useth it elsewhere even in the precedent and following chapters , and that sense or rather nonsense self-contradicting acception devised of late by mr. b. without any ancient author i know , or any reason from the text. that which mr. b. replies is as frivolous . . he saith infants are called disciples acts. . . they are there part of christians and disciples ; but this is false there 's not a word in the text that soundes to this sense , that infants are any part of the christians or disciples there mentioned , yea there is that which is plainly to the contrary v. . then the disciples , every manaccording to his ability , determined to send relief to the brethren . if every one of the disciples determined to send , and no infants determined to send relief , then no infants are part of the disciples . saith he , the case is not alike , in . cor. . . i argued about the meaning of the word [ holy ] here we are agreed about the sense , that it signifieth one so related to christ as their ●aster , the difference is about the application of this term . but this is false that i agree with him about the signification and sense of the word [ disciple of christ ] as it notes a relation to christ as teacher , yea i utterly deny it notes such a relation as mr. b. fancies in title without actual learning or owning christ as teacher , in which sense it is no where taken in scripture or any ancient author i know . . saith he , however i am certain , if we have not the name elsewhere , yet we have the description and names of the same signification , they are church members , gods people , his servants , and therefore disciples . answ. . this doth not at all avoyd his owne charge of prostituted consciences , &c. in another case , he charged these things on me for using the word [ holy ] in a different sense from what elsewhere it is used , though i brought a term of the same signification mal. . ▪ and cogent reason out of the text for my interpretation , and therefore by his own law to me , he is to be charged as he chargeth me for doing the same , though it were true he had the description and names of the same signification . . it is not proved , no nor can be proved , the terms [ churchmembers , gods people , gods servants ] to be of the same signification with [ disciples of christ ] . there is no : so much as one text in the new testament , which alone is written in greek by the holy pen-men , and therefore the fittest if not the onely way to shew the meaning of a new testament term , brought to prove infants under the new testament to be caled churchmembers , gods people , gods servants . . the consequence shall be examined in that which follows . besides i argued from the text , the putting the yoke on the necks of the disciples is the same with that which is mentioned v. . they taught the brethren , and v. . they said it was needfull to circumcise them , and to command them to keep the law of moses , and v. . certain which went out from us have troubled you with words , subverting your souls , saying ye must be circumcised and keep the law. now is any man so sensless as to think they did these things to infants ? again the text. v. . . calls the disciples v. . brethren , saith v. . their hearts were purified by faith upon the hearing of the word , which none but those that are resolved to outface a plain truth would aver to be meant of infants , therefore neither the term disciples , v. fi●h what is said of the brethren is meant of the disciples v. . to this all the reply i finde in mr. b. is this pag . and your bringing some passages of the chapter not applicable to infants doth not prove that therefore the rest is not , no more than several passages in deut. . applicable onely to the aged , will prove little ones were not taken in to be gods people . answ. it is true , the bringing some passages of the chapter not applicable to infants doth not prove that therefore the rest is not : if i had made such an argument i would give him leave to use his rhetorick of silly insipid arguings . but my arguing is this , the same thing which is expressed , v. . by putting the yoke on the necks of the disciples , is expressed v. . by teaching the brethren , v. . by saying to them it was needfull to circumcise them , and to command them to keep the law of moses , v . by troubling with words , subverting their souls , saying , ye must be circumcised and keep the law , and the same persons which are expressed by disciples , v. . are termed v. . brethren , are said v. . to have their hearts purified by faith , v. . those of the gentiles that were turned to god , v. . brethren of the gentiles ; but these things were not done to infants , nor infants comprehended under these persons , in these places , which express the same thing , and the same person , which is apparent by the narration , peter reprehends the same thing in the same persons , v. . which is related v. , , , . the occasion of his speech was the same fact , the drift of his speech is to condemn the same fact , the determination of the council is against the same practice , the same persons are in all these places spoken of , and this is proved by mr. bs. first argument , who brings v. , , . to prove circumcision to be the yoke , v. . which argument supposeth the same persons and things meant , v. . which are meant , v. , , . but not one of the things said there is applicable to infants . how then can any man imagine that the same act being meant in all the places , it should be meant of the act of circumcision , v. . and not v. , , . and the same persons meant , they should be infants meant , v. . and not v. , , ? is not this to make the same act and the same persons not the same , which is a contradiction ? i know not how men conceive of my intellectuals : but i am still possessed of this to be so good proof , that i should as soon doubt of other common notions as of this , and as soon believe that the moon is made of green cheese , as believe mr. b. affirming that peter meant infants by disciples , acts . . i added further , if the putting on the yoke had been circumcision , it had been to be done not on their necks but elsewhere , the yoke was put not on their flesh , but on their consciences , their souls are said to be subverted , their mindes troubled , v. . not their flesh pained by the putting on the yoke , it was done by words , v. . not by a knife or such like instrument . again , the yoke v. . was such as neither the present jews nor their fathers were able to bear : but circumcision put on infants was tolerable . i argued also that christs doctrine is called his yoke , matth. . . i alleged the testimonies of pisc. sch . on acts . . grot. annot. in acts . . calling it the law and doctrine , that the yoke of bondage , gal. . . is the doctrine or covenant of the law , which genders to bondage , gal. . , . that circumcision is not the yoke without subjection of minde or opinion to it , which are not verified of infants . these things he saith are answered already , but where i know not : if he mean in his argument before , he may see his cannon turned against himself . i said , all the colour mr. b. hath from this text to prove infants disciples , is by conceiving the yoke to note barely and precisely the cutting off a little skin . to this he answers , i must say it is but one of your fictions . did you over hear me talk of such a thing ? cutting that skin is not circumcision , as the word is used for a sacrament . the end , signification , and engagement go into the definition of circumcision . and if from hence you would infer , that it is onely the aged that are capable of signification and engagement , you may strait conclude that no infant was ever circumcised . i reply , it is no fiction of mine , but a truth , whether mr. b. talked or thought of it or no , that all the colour , that is shew of reason mr. b. hath from this text to prove infants disciples , is in taking the yoke for the cutting off a little skin . for his proof is from what was done or endeavored to be done to infants ; but that was onely the cutting the little skin . mr. b. would have the yoke to be actual circumcision , or circumcision as acted , and that was nothing but the cutting off the litle skin . it is true , circumcision in the users is more than the cutting off the little skin , there is the end , signification , and intended engagement , but as infants receive it , as it is acted on infants , the yoke can be no more than the loss of the skin and the soreness following , they neither are taught , nor discern the end , signification or engagement , and circumcision as it includes these is as i say in my antidote circumcision not as acted on infants , but taught persons of years ; nor was it my objection that circumcision as a sacrament was onely the cutting off a little skin , but as it was acted on infants , and the imagined ●oke endeavored to be put on infants acts . . which sure peter never blamed them for , and therefore it is not the yoke there meant . mr. bs. talk of circumcision as a sacrament , and what is the definition of it as a sacrament , as it leades to a dispute about the notion of a word not found in scripture , so being besides the present business , i shall let it pass . lastly i added , that if it were granted that the term [ disciples acts . ] noted infants , then onely male infants , for they onely were to be circumcised , therefore female infants should not be thence proved disciples , nor to be baptized . to this he answers , that is as much as i needed , when my position was that some infants are disciples and to be baptized . i reply , it is not as much as he needed , unless he understood his position onely of some male infants . . saith he , i should hence prove , that if males are disciples , then certainly females , both being church-members till christ , though but one circumcised . i reply , . it is more than he can prove that those who were church-members in the jewish church are disciples of christ in the new testament to be baptized . . if he could prove it , yet not from acts . . it being certain no more can be proved thence to be disciples , than are there called disciples , which mr. b. himself will not say of female infants . i conclude still , that in this arguing of mr. b. i finde nothing but froward , and , i had almost said , impudent wrangling against a plain truth , that the disciples acts . . were onely the brethren converted , and the yoke the doctrine the false teachers would have put upon them , and the reader , of whosoever education or tu●●●age , if he be not otherwise blinded , may perceive with his own eys the slightiness of mr. bs. arguings , and how superficially he hath handled this business . i go on to review the next , which is no better . sect . xiv . infants discipleship is not proved by mr. b. from lev. , . which speaks of the israelites being gods servants . my second argument , saith mr. b. to prove that some infants are disciples , is this , if no infants are disciples , then it is either because they are not capable , or else because god will not shew them such a mercy ; but neither of these can be the cause ; therefore that no infants are disciples is false doctrine . mr. t. to this gave this answer [ that the reason why they are not disciples is because they have not learned . ] answ. it is true , in the dispute at bewdley finding mr. bs. vein of disputing to run upon a captious way of endeavouring to bring me to such absurdities ●n appearance as would stir up passions in hearers against me as lessening gods mercy to their infants , and then aggravating these imagined absurdities , turning to the people with his wonted exclamations , and other rhetorick ( whereby he hath befooled not onely those parts , but a great number of shallow heads throughout the land ) which i found to be his course in his first argument in ch . . now printed to prove his ordinance of visible church-membership of infants unrepealed , with which he began , when he should have first proved such an ordinance and its continuing in force out of scripture , it being an indirect way , though popular and taking , to prove a thing done by god , because we conceive it fit to be done , and having been tired with answering three or four hours his long hypothetical syllogismes , and those somtimes brought to prove an hypothetical proposition , contrary to the use of schools , not allowing me to ask a question for clearing his termes , neither allowing me time to consider of his reasonings , nor at first liberty of repeating , i did thus answer to this argument , hoping though 〈◊〉 vain to reduce him to a proof of infants of discipleship from the notation or use of the word , which is the onely genuine and clear way of proving infants to be disciples ; ordinarily to be baptized , according to the institution matth. . ● . but , alas , saith mr. b. that such an answer should satisfy such a man ! i reply , alas , that such an answer should not satisfy such a man ! is this any third cause saith mr. b. answ. what need any man assigne any cause at all why infants are not disciples , but because the term [ disciple ] agrees not to them ? if mr. b. should prove in like manner infants to be believers , what need the respondent shew any other cause than this , that they have not faith ? so even sith mr. b. himself acknowledgeth the term disciple pag. . to have its denomination from the act of learning , it is a sufficient ▪ yea the most direct and proper way to shew infants not disciples , because they have not the act of learning , which 〈◊〉 . b. should have overthrown if he would have proved , as he should , infants to be disciples . but then he might have been hindered in his vagaries and popular discourses , which with his rhetorical exclamations were that he most minded to use , and been brought to discover his nonsense acception of the word [ disciple . ] but saith he , or is it not evidently reducible to one of the former ? for if their unlearnedness hinder them from being disciples , either it must be because it maketh them or sheweth them uncapable , or because god will not shew the unlearned so great mercy . answ. it is neither because unlearnedness maketh or sheweth them uncapable , nor because god will not shew them that mercy : but because what ever their capacity be , or gods intent toward them , they have not yet that which alone denominates disciples . if his disjunction were good he should prove that capacity of a title , or gods intention of shewing mercy , without actual learning or professing christ , is enough to denominate a person a disciple of christ , which is so manifestly contrary to all the use of the word in the new testament , and to expositors of matth. . . that i am now bold to say , that it is no better than height of impudence after so evident proof to maintain so gross an absurdity . but i am necessitated to follow mr. b. in his vagaries . . if infants , saith mr. b. are capable of being gods servants , then they are capable of being disciples . for as they signify here the same thing and denote the same sort of persons , so there is the same capacity requisite to both : or if you will make a difference , there is more required to a servant than to a disciple . but infants are capable of being gods servants : this is plain ; for the lord god himself doth call them his servants , levit. . . . they are commanded in the year of iubile to let their brother that was sold to them , and his children , depart ; and the reason is added [ for they are my servants ] that infants are here included among [ his children ] cannot be denied or doubted of ( mr. t. began to deny it , but he quickly recalled it ) is not here then direction enough to help us to judg of the minde of god , whether infants are his servants and disciples or no ? doth not god call them his servants himself ? what more should a man expect to warrant him to do so ? men call for plain scripture , and when they have it they will no● receive it ; so hard is it to inform a forestalled minde . it may be some may say , they were then capable of being gods servants , but they are not so now . but this were a wretched answer . for their capacity was the same then and now : infants then were like infants now . answ. it is certain that the term [ servants of god ] is not always equipollent to [ a disciple of christ. ] for jer. . . nebuchadnezzar is called gods servant , and the heavens , psal. . . but then when it is taken in the sense the apostle useth it , rom. . . his servants ye are to whom ye obey , and therefore unless he means by [ servants of god ] men voluntarily obeying the gospel , yea and visibly appearing so to do , i shall deny his consequence , and his dictates , that either acts . . or matth. . . a disciple and a servant of god in his sense signify the same thing , or denote the same sort of persons . and if more be required to a servant than a disciple , it follows that a person may be a disciple and yet not a servant of god , and so the terms are not reciprocal , and his consequence so much the more infirm . as for his minor it is denied , understanding it of capacity of infants while infants in an ordinary way , and of being gods servants in the sense used rom. . in which alone it is equipollent to a disciple . as for the text levit. . , . though it be plain scripture , yet there is nothing plain or obscure in it for mr. bs. purpose , to prove that the infants of believers of the gentiles now are gods servants in a sense equipollent to a disciple , matth. . . for. . the passage is meant onely of hebrews , as exod. . . is expressed , and the text it self shews it . . from v. . where it is said , unto me the children of israel are servants , they are my servants whom i brought out of the land of egypt , in which are two discriminating notes differencing them from others , . that they were the children of israel descended from iacob by natural generation , . that they were brought out of the land of egypt by god. . v. . . do explain it , where god allows them to take bond-slaves of the heathen that were round about them , and of the children of the strangers that did sojourn among them , which is the description of proselytes of the gate , that is , such as acknowledged the god of israel , but did not submit to circumcision , and the observation of moses law , of which sort was cornelius , acts . . such an ones children were not gods servants in the sense there meant . yea , ainsworth in his annot. on v. . citeth maimony resolving that an israelites children begotten on a canaanitish bond-woman are but canaanites in every respect , not gods servants in the sense there meant . . what is said there is said not onely of infants but also of parents , yea though they were idolaters , as those that worshipped the golden calf , or joyned themselves to baal peor , or who hardened their hearts , and could not enter into canaan for unbelief , heb. . , . even the wo●st of them with whom god was not well pleased , which were not true of servants of god in a sense equipollent to a disciple of christ , matth. . . . diodati expresseth in his annot. on lev. . ▪ in what sense they are called gods servants , to wit , in as much as none could get sovereign dominion over them to prejudice his , therefore they are there called gods servants in this respect onely , in that they were to be disposed of not as men would , but as he would , who had right to them by his purchase , in bringing them out of egypt . so that they are called servants of god , in that place , not out of any either voluntary obedience to his precepts , or peculiar right to visible church-membership , but in respect of gods sovereignty over them to dispose of them as hebrews , which was not belonging to believers or their children , or other nations not joyned to the policy of the hebrews . and therefore i still say , mr. b. doth but trifle as a man that superficially looks over a text , when he talks so vainly as he doth of direction enough to help us to judg of gods minde , whether infants are his servants and disciples or no. nor is it tru which he saith , that the capacity is the same then and now . for though infants then were like infants now , yet the judicial laws of moses , and the peculiar condition of the hebrews is not now as then . but he goes on . may i not make this a third argument of it self ? if god call infants his servants , though they can do him no service , then we may call them so too : for we may speak as god doth : but god doth call them so ; therefore we may . answ. the conclusion is granted : he may call hebrew infants gods servants in the sense meant , lev. . . but if he cal the children of gentile-believers servants of god in a sense equipollent to a disciple , matth. . . he must bring better warrant than that text , or else i shall deny it , slighting his vain censure of a forestalled minde , and conceiving rather it verisied of himself . as the man thinketh , so the bell tinketh . again , saith mr. b. if god call infants his servants , though they are uncapable at present of doing him service , then we may call them disciples , though at present they are uncapable of learning . but god doth so call them ; therefore we may , &c. answ. if god call infants his servants according to the apostles description of a servant , rom. . . then i confess infants may be called christs disciples , but not if onely according to the sense of lev. . . mr. b. goes on . hath he a good wit now or a bad minde , that can raise a dust for the darkning of so express and plain a text ? and yet still call for scripture proof ? i will deal faithfully in telling you mr. t. his answer to this ▪ and that upon deliberation , in his sermon after the dispute . . he distinguisheth of servants of god de ●ure & de facto . . between servants actively and passively ; and saith , that here the term servant is meant passively and not actively , that is , such as god useth : and that they are called servants here in no other sense than the heavens and the earth are , psalm . , . they are thy servants ; are they therefore disciples ? ( saith he ) what ridiculous arguing is this ? so mr. t. o what cause have we all to look to the tenderness of our consciences in time , before engagement in a sinfull cause hath benummed them , and made the word of god to be of no force to us ? i know shallow brains are uncapable to discern the weakness of the silliest answer : they go that way as their affection doth byass them : their approbation of an argument or answer is no credit to it . but let any man of a tolerable understanding , and conscience not seared , but weigh-seriously this answer , and i dare warrant he will think it a bad cause that must be underpropt by such palpable abuse of scripture . answ. i loath to take notice of such base insinuations , far unworthy of a christian brother or an ingenuous scholar , but that thereby mr. b. hath more prevailed to hinder the entertainment of the truth i maintain , than by any arguments he hath brought . and were it not that the law of charity forbids me to put the worst construction on things , i see so much as might move me to retort upon himself his insinuations against me , as if i had a bad minde , and a seared conscience , and a bad cause , and that i darken so express and plain a text , and so palpably abuse scripture because of my answer about this text. i will not deny him to have a good wit , nor impute to him a shallow brain , i wish his judgment were as good as his fancy , & that with his quickness of apprehension he had more considerateness in his determinations , and especially about the meaning of scripture ; if it were so , the church of god might have much more benefit by his laboures than it hath , nor would his polemick writings especially , have so many crudities in them as there are . as for this present business i think that intemperate zeal to the cause he thinks good hath so transported him that he shews much want both of ingenuity of spirit , and clearness of understanding , which he hath in other writings , and that however he doth often pretend love to me , yet his gall doth so overflow when ever he speakes of me , that he can neither give aright interpretation of what i do , nor of what i say . but to the matter . i had sayd in my sermon , and in my antidot sect . . that what is sayd levit. . . is nothing to our children , it being spoken peculiarly of hebrew children . to this in his reply pag. . . he tells me . . the iewes infants were infants , and our dispute you know was of the species . answ. the jews infants were infants its true , and so were the canaanites infants , yet not servants of god , as levit. . ▪ is meant . . the dispute was not as it was first mannaged between me and mr. m. nor as it was by mr. bs : first argument borught to an issue , of the species , whether any infants indefinitely or any ones infants whatsoever were to be called disciples of christ and to be baptized , but whether the infants of believers , of whom his meaning is in his first argument , however he make his position , that some infants are to be baptized . . whatever his position were , yet his wordes in his epistle to the people of kederminster were that god saith our children are gods servants , which is palpably false , he saying it of the hebrews children as such ; and not of ours . . saith he , i have proved that our privileges are greater than theirs ( and you deny it not ) and that this was not perculiar to them . answ. if it be granted that our previleges are greater than theirs , yet it is but in some respects , and therefore there is no good argument , if it be confessed god shews more mercy to our children therefore he gives them every such privilege as the jews had . god shews mercy to ministers of the gospel more than to the priests of the jews , yet it follows not , our children must have such privileges of continuance in office , inheritance & c. as they had . that what is sayd levit. . . was peculiar to the hebrews , is so clearly proved , that it hath a shew of impudence to deny it . . saith he , it proves that there is nothing in the age to make them uncapable , or else the jews infants would have been uncapable . answ. it proves that there is nothing in the age to make them uncapable of being gods servants in the sense of levit. . . but it proves not that they are capable of being gods servants ordinarily as the title is used rom. . . and is equipollent to a disciple , matth. . . but saith he , how have the believing jews lost this privilege or proselytes of the gentiles ? answ. . this privilege was belonging to the unbelieving jews while it continued , as well as the believing . . if it be lost ( as i think it is ) it is lost by the dissolving the judicial laws of moses , and the national policy the jews had . but saith he , where you talk of servants in this sense and that sense , they were so servants as to be visible church-menbers , and that is all that i contest for . they were reckoned among moses disciples , and so are ours to be among christs disciples or christians ( as moses disciples also in some sort were christs disciples . ) answ. the sense in which the jews children were called gods servants is not all one with to be visible church-members , nor moses diciples , as is proved above where the genuine sense is shewed . but to the distinctions i used in my sermon and antidote , i deny not that i used both distinctions , and they are usual in schools . the former is used by the author of the new annot . on deut. . . the later is common , in the differencing of active and passive scandal , conversion taken actively and passively , mr. b. himself , p. . distinguisheth of being sanctified actively and passively . but he thinks the application to be a palpable abuse of scripture . for , . he ( meaning me ) saith they were servants of god de jure , but not de facto , in right , out not in deed . but a servant is a relation , that is the form of it , servus est domini servus . and have they onely a right to this relation ? who then or what hindreth them from possessing the relation which they have right to ? is it not god that giveth them right to this relation ? and is not that to give them the relation it self ? i would he would tell us what more he giveth them that have th●● elationo it self de facto , ( for i suppose he dare not interpret it of a future right . ) answ. i said in my sermon as mr. b. hath printed it pag : . that the meaning is not that infants are actually servants , but in right , to me , he doth not speak what they did , but of gods right and interest he had in them : which is so plain a truth that i supposed he could not have sound any matter of exception . but mr. b. is so quarelsome with me that he will either finde or make a knot in a bulrush . . he renders de facto in deed , as if i had said , they had relation of right , but not in deed , that is not in possession : whereas my meaning was plainly exprest , they were not actually servants in respect of what they did , or in respect of the act or fact of service . . he misunderstands it as if i spake of their being servants of right , that they had the right of being gods servants so as to claim it as a privilege on their part , whereas i meant it and expressed it in respect of gods right and interest in them , though i deny not the other to follow . to his questions i answer . they have a right and possession of that relation , and it is given them by god with the relation , and to those that have the relation in fact , or as i spake actually in respect of what they did . god gives this more to them that are his servants by reason of his right in them , that they have actual obedience to him , according to that of the apostle , rom. . . his servants ye are to whom ye obey . . saith mr. b. whether they are servants actively or passively is nothing to the being or form of the relation ; they are servants of god still . and it seems by this answer , that if god had called infants disciples never so oft mr. t. would have put god off with this distinction , and said , they are disciples passively , but not actively . for . what reason can he give why they may not be called disciples in a passive sense as well as servants ? . doth not god bid his apostles baptize those that were disciples without distinguishing ? or doth he bid them baptize active disciples , but not passive ones ? where is that distinction in the command ? answ. mr. b. is so inured to his spitefull language , that my giving him an answer to his objection and clearing the words lev. . . is termed by him putting off god with a distinction , as if i answered god , and not mr. b. but to the matter . . though servants actively and passively may be both called servants , as a slave bought with money , but sick and weak , who never did service actually , may be called his lords servant , because at his dispose , yet not univocally , as they speak in logick , in comparison of him that doth actually service , because he is a servant but in one respect , whereas he that is a servant not onely by being at his lords dispose for his lord to assign what he will for him , because of his propriety in him , but also doth service actively for his lord , is in a double respect a servant , of which the later is that which is principal , and from which the denomination is primarily and principally taken , as the relation of a son is principally from generation , though analogically in some respect an adopted son have that title . . but were it supposed the term did univocally agree to both , yet the question being whether infants be disciples , and the argument being brought from the title of gods servants to prove them disciples , the term [ servants of god ] passively taken for one that doth not voluntarily any service to god , but onely is at gods dispose , is not as much as [ a disciple of christ ] which signifies one that hath learned christ , and professeth himself to follow his teaching . and so it is a clear answer , that infants are not proved to be christs disciples by being proved to be passively gods servants , except they be also proved to be actively such , and that 〈◊〉 obeying the gospel , and professing that obedience . what ever seems to mr. b. ( whose imaginations of me are still to the worst ) if i had found god call once infants disciples in the sense , matth. . . i should quickly have yielded there is no need of such a distinction of active or passive disciple , si●h i finde the title given to none but such as are actual learners , and that is a reason why infants may not be called disciples in a passive sense as well as gods servants . for use is the rule of understanding words , and christ bids us baptize onely disciples that are actual learners , and profess christ their master , as appears both by christs words , mark . . in which he expresseth that by [ he that believeth ] which he did matth. . . by [ a disciple ] and by the practice of the apostles , who best understood christs precept , and by the constant use of the word [ disciple ] in the new testament , as is proved above . nor needs there be any such distinction of active and passive disciple in the command , because the word [ disciple ] is not used passively , though [ servant of god ] be . . saith mr. b. but i shall be bold to take it for one of mr. t. his fictions , and a meer falshood , that infants are here called servants passively onely , till he have done somewhat to prove it ; to which end he hath not spoken one word , as thinking it seems that he spake to men that will take his word . why may they not be called servants from the meer interest of dominion that god hath to them ? and authority over them ? are infants the kings subjects or servants in a passive sense onely ? is it not foundation enough for the relation of a servant , if god will own them so , and number them with his family of meer grace , though he should make no use of them at all ? or if there must be more : may they not be called so , as being destinated to his service for the future ? and so they may have the relation before the service ; which is common with those men that buy children with their parents for their future service . so eccl. . . reade it . answ. how egregiously doth mr. b. trifle , who expects i should prove , who was but the respondent , and that also which is apparent to common sense , that infants are not servants of god actively in obeying his precepts , or as i sayd in my sermon , in freely and voluntarily giving service to god and doing what he 〈…〉 s , who neither know nor hear gods precepts , and looks i should prove what he agrees with me in ! for when i said in●●●ts are servants from gods right and interest in them , though they do no service , mr. b. as if i said no such thing pu●s many importinent questions to me , as if he would by them know my minde in that which i had plainly though more briefly expressed , to wit that the jews infants were gods servants . . of right , because god had a right , propriety or perculiar interest in them , he had purchased them otherwise than he had done other people . . passively , so as that their bodies and liberties were at his dispose , not allowing men to dispose of them , as he did to dispose of others . as for the question may they not be so called as destinated to his service for the future ? i conceive not ; destination to his service for the future doth not either there or any where else that i know , give denomination to a servant as actually such : no● doth i think any thing in the text lead us to such a reason of the denomination , but to that which i have set down . and to his question , are infants the kings subjects or servants in a passive sense onely ? i answer , yes , while they are infants , and should question his intellectuals that should deny it ; and when he cals it my fiction and meer falshood , that infants are here called servants passively only , it seems prejudice against me makes him count that a fiction and falshood in my mouth , which is current enough when it comes from his own pen. but mr. b. is not yet reconciled to me , there 's more anger yet behinde . for thus he speaks . . but the grossest is yet behinde , ( as the worst errour is still at last , and the further a man goes out of his way the further he goes amiss ) would any man think that such a man as mr. t. can possibly believe that infants are called gods servants in no other sense than the heavens and earth are ? answ. may i not take up the poets words , tantaene animis coelestibus irae ? is mr. b. so waspish as to be still humming and buzzing about my ears , and stinging me with his mis-representations . t is true , to shew that the term [ servant of god ] is not equipollent to [ a disciple of christ ] i instanced in ps l. . . where the heaven and the earth are called gods servants in a passive sense , but my words ( as he himself printed them ) are not , infants are called gods servants in no other sense than the heavens a●● earth are : yea i mentioned nebuchadnezzar called gods servant jerem. . . after the allegation of psal. . . and yet if i had said so i know no errour in it , much less gross erour , or grossest of all . but mr. b. asks placet . well! room for mr. b. let me a little reason this case , saith he , . are the heavens onely passive servants of god ? is that good philosophy ? answ. sith mr. b. is either in his reasoning or posing vein , i shall enforce my self with what patience i can to reade his childing lecture , and to answer his questions , though he would not answer mine at the dispute , when he should . to his first and second i answer affirmatively . it is not good philosophy to say , the heavens onely suffer , and act nothing : but it is very good philosophy , and divinity too , that the heavens are onely passive servants of god , when they do gods will , they do it not with consent of will , as when the stormy windes fulfill gods word , psal. . . they do act , but not actively obey god. herod and pontius pilate did what gods counsel determined , acts ▪ , . yet were not active servants of god , but passive , the doing of gods will was besides their intentions so nebuchadnezzar , jer. . . sennacherib , isai . , , . josephs brethren , shimei , absolom , &c. are servants of god in this sense . and in this sense the heavens are gods servants , as mr. b. might have perceived by the joyning the earth with them , which moves not , or rather in this passive sense , because they are at gods disposing . . saith he , what if the earth and infants were both called gods servants onely in a passive sense , because god maketh use of them ? is it therefore in the same sense ? answ. yes . mr. b. is it the same use that god maketh of both ? answ. no , and yet it is the same sense . again , mr. b. what if christ were called gods servant for his suffering ? shall we say it were in no other sense than the earth is so called ? when the use and sufferings are so unlike ? answ. no , for if christ were called gods servant for his suffering , i would call him an active servant of god , not a passive ▪ for though he in his suffering were passive , and divines call it passive obedience , yet he did not obey passively , that is , against his will , or without consent of will , as the earth doth , but actively , out of his free and voluntary intention , and consent of will. be the use and suffering never so unlike , those persons or things may be in the fame sense passive servants of god , whose sufferings or use accomplisheth gods will without their intention , and they active servants in the same sense whose use or sufferings are with intention and consent to accomplish the will of god , though their use or sufferings are much unlike . but he hath not yet done posing or ch●ding me . what if i prove , saith he , ( as me thinks with mr. ● . i might easily do ) that the heavens are gods servants actively , and christ also is called his servant actively ? doth it follow that they are servants in the same sense , when the action is so unlike ? answ. yes , for i never took the identity of sense to presuppose necessarily likeness in the actions . the same sense is when words signifie a like meaning , whatever likeness or unlikeness there be in the actions of the subjects to which the predicate is attributed . and i pity mr. bs. oscitancy that doth not observe such obvious things , but troubles others with such frivolous questions . but yet there are more of these demands to be answered . . saith mr. b. hath not god prevented all these cavils by joyning parents and children together in the same title ? he saith of parents and children both together , they are my servants : where it is evident that both therefore have the same kinde of relation . and will he say that the parents are onely passive servants ? answ. yes , in that place , according to the explication before given ; and i conceive that god hath prevented all mr. bs. cavils against this exposition , even in that he joyns parents and children , ( who can be no other ways servants of god ) together , in the same title ; besides other passages of the text do shew it , as i have alleged above . . saith mr. b. or if all this be not enough , yet look further , where god himself tels you the reason why he cals them his servants , ( who knows better than mr. t. ) they are my servants which i brought out of egypt , &c. gods interest and mercifull choice of them , and separation to himself , is the reason . when god cals us his servants , it oftn●r signifieth the honor and privileges of that relation , which in mercy he cals us to , than any service we do him therein . are the heavens gods servants , because he brought them out of egypt , and separated them to himself as a peculiar people ? answ. mr. b. is a strange man , most shamefully dealing with me , who suggests to the world of me as if i took no notice of that in the text , which in my sermon as it is printed by himself , pag. . was observed in the first place with advice to my hearers to mark it , and urged it to that end that i might shew this was peculiar to the hebrew children , and therefore impertinently brought by mr. b. to prove our infants gods servants as there it is meant much less as [ god 's servants ] is a term equipollent to [ a disciple matth. . . ] all which he seems not to take notice of , but in stead thereof after a dictate or two without proof , he puts to me this frivolous question , are the heavens gods servants because he brought them out of egypt , and separated them to himself as a peculiar people ? to which i answer no , but what then ? cannot therefore the heavens be said to be gods servants passively , that is , at gods dispose , because they were not brought out of egypt as the infants , levit. . . ? the reason is given there in respect of the subject , why they were gods servants when other people were not , not on the part of the predicate , as if none were servants but they that were brought out of egypt . nebuchadnezzar is called gods servant , jer. . . for going into egypt there executing gods will on the egyptians ; though he had no intention of doing any thing for god. . saith mr. b. yet if all this be not enough , he that will see may be convinced from this . the jews and their infants are called gods servants in a sense peculiar as chosen and separated from all other : the gentiles at age were not so gods servants as the jews infants were . if god call these infants his servants in no other sense than the heavens and the earth , then it seems in the year of jubilee men must release the earth from its service to them : but mr. t. knows that even the gentile servants that were actively so were not to be released in the year of jubilee : and therefore the jews and their infants are called gods servants in another sense than the heavens or the heathens either ; even as the chosen separated people of god and members of his family . or else how could it be a reason for releasing them in the year of jubilee any more than for releasing any other ? but no scripture can be so plain , but a man that hath a minde so disposed may finde some words of contradiction . answ. it is true , and mr. bs. cavils about this text apparently preve it . but this with all the rest is not enough to convince me that the infants of the jews are called gods servants actively , as the term [ gods servant ] is equipollent to [ a disciple matth. . . ] though i would see it , yet i cannot , no not by mr. bs. spectacles , even by this last reason . i confess that the jews infants were gods servants in a peculiar manner , other than the gentiles at years , yea though godly , as cornelius , acts . . that god for this reason required their release from bondage at the jubilee , and yet why it should follow , that if the earth be called gods servant passively , as the jews infants , it must be released by men from service at the year of jubilee , i see not . if it were formed into an argument , it would rest on this or the like proposition , they to whom the same thing is predicated , in the same sense must have all other things predicated on them alike : which is so absurd a thing , that me thinks mr. b. should disclaim it , and yet his reason turns on that hinge . to shew its absurdity , magistrates are called gods , jehovah is called god in one sense in respect of rule , else the term [ god ] should signifie nothing common to both . doth it therefore follow that what is said of magistrates must be said of jehovah , that he must dy like men , or else the term [ god ] cannot predicate on both in the same sense in which [ god ] is taken for one that rules ? this and such like mistakes of mr. b. even then when he runs with full curreer shew his heedlesness , and overliness in handling controversies , which require a man of more insight in the meaning of the scripture , and more circumspect in observing the consequents on his sayings and reasonings than i finde him . but i follow him , not doubting to overtake him in long tunning , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . sect . xv. that infants are not proved to be christs disciples , from being subjects to christ , christians , belonging to christ , luke . , . matth. . . mark . . the sum of the next argument is , infants are capable of being subjects of chrsts kingdom , therefore of being his disciples . the reason of the consequence is , that christs church is as properly called his kingdom as his school , all subjects of christ in his visible kingdom are christians , all christians disciples , according to acts . . infants are capable of being subjects in any kingdom on earth , nothing can be shewed to prove them uncapable , they were actually subjects of christs kingdom before his coming in the flesh . to all which i answer , it s enough to deny the consequence sith infants may be subjects which imports onely somthing passive , whereas [ disciple ] imports action , which agrees not to infants . but i distinguish , subjects of christs kingdom may be so called from active or passive subjection , visibly or invisibly , by extraordinary or ordinary operation . i deny infants to be subjects of christs kingdom actively , visibly , by ordinary operation through preaching the word in which sense alone the term [ subject of christs kingdom ] is equipollent to [ a disciple matth. . . ] and in which sense alone the consequence is true . though in common speech arising from the fond conceit as if baby-sprinkling made them christians , infants are called christians , yet in scripture none are called christians till they believe . christiani non naseu●●ur sed fiunt . our infants are children of christians , but not themselves christians till they beleive in christ. acts . . is so far from proving infants called christians , or disciples , that both v. . & . prove the contrary , as was shewed above . though infants be reckoned as parts of human kingdoms , yet it follows not they are parts of christs visible kingdom or church . for then natural fools , yea the mostungodly professed unbelievers , must be subjects of christs visible kingdom or church , because such are subjects of human kingdoms . i have seen ephes. . . and see nothing there for mr. bs. purpose , but against him , there being no subjection there meant but what is willing , which infants have not , except by extraordinary operation unknown . infants whether of believers or unbelievers are capable of being christs subjects passively , or actively by extraordinary secret invisible , and unknown operation , but not actively , visibly by ordinary means for want of the use of reason . this consequence will never be proved by mr. b. infants were members of the jewish church , therefore visible church members of the christian church . to this argument , infants were disciples in the jewish church , ergo , god will shew the like mercy now , i answer by denying his antecedent , which he would prove from john . . we are moses disciples in opposition to jesus disciples , but infants were moses his disciples . this proposition i deny , and mr. b. hath brought nothing to prove it . the text mentions none as moses disciples but persons of years , and therefore there 's no need of further answer to his argument . . my third argument saith mr. b. to prove some infants are disciples , is this from christs own words . if christ would have some children received as disciples , then they are disciples ; but christ would have some such received as disciples ; therefore some such are disciples . all the question is of the antecedent and that is plain in luke . , . compared which matth. . . and mark . . he that receiveth this childe in my name receiveth me . here observe . . it was the childe himself that christ would have received . . he would have him received [ in his name ] now that can mean no less than as a disciple : when they are baptized it is into his name : and that which in luke is called [ receiving in christs name ] is expressed in mark [ one that belongeth to christ ] and in matthew [ in the name of a disciple ] though some of these places speak of infants , some of others : yet compared , they plainly tell you this ; that to receive [ in christs name ] and [ as belonging to christ ] and [ as a disciple of christ ] in christs language is all one , for they plainly express the same thing intended in all . so that christ hath encouraged me to receive children [ in his name ] luke . . and he expoundeth it to me , that this is to receive them [ as belonging ] to him , and as [ disciples ] i know some frivolous answers are made to this : but they are not worth the standing on . mr. blakes argument hence remaineth as good as unanswered . answ. what mr. blake alleged in his birth privilege , p. : about these texts was answered in my examen , pag. . and what he replied in his answer to my letter , cap. . sect . . was refelled in my postscript , pag. , , all which i have reviewed with what mr. blake refers to in his repulse of mr. blackwood , pag. , , , , . and do not finde wherein my answer in my postscript is deficient , and therefore see no reason to be moved by mr. bs. vain talk that mr. blakes argument hence remains as good as unanswered , and do conceive it more abundantly answered than such a far-fetch'd argument deserved . yet mr. b. brings it again into the field , and mr. blake vindic. foederis , pag. . says , he will forbear to make any rejoynder to the reply of my apology , pag. . because mr. b. hath here done it for him . now what saith mr. b. he saith , i know some frrivolous answers are made to this ; but they are not worth the standing on . to which i reply , if the answers be more frivolous than the argument they are not indeed worth standing on . but let us see what kinde of argument it is . . mr. b. should have concluded that some infants are disciples , and he concludes that some children are disciples , or else he means by [ some such ] in the minor and conclusion others than by [ some children ] in the major , now some infants and some children are not all one . . the phrase in the middle term [ received as disciples ] may be understood two ways , . thus , that christ would have them received as being disciples , and in this sense i grant the consequence , but deny the minor , understood of some infants . . that he would have them received with such tenderness and love as is given to disciples , though they be not disciples . and in this sense i might grant the minor , and deny the consequence of the major , though i think the minor is not true in that sense . and to mr. bs. proof of this , i say , . the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , luke . . doth not note an infant always . for jairus his daughter though twelve years old , is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a little childe , mark . ▪ . and yet that age might be a patern of humility , seldom are children of that age ambitious , though they be impatient . and that the little childe matth. . . was not an infant but a person of some years , is made probable , in that christ is said to call him , and to set him , or make him stand in the midst of them . . beza saith , perhaps it should be read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , such a little childe . so the syriack interpreter reades , and it is very probable by comparing it with matth. . . where the words of christ are related , and there it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , one such little childe , and mark . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , one of such children . . but if the reading be allowed as the copies now have it , yet it is not unusual that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , this ] is all one with [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , such ] as on the other side 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is cor. . . all one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . so in the same chapter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , luke . . is not meant of one particular person , but of one so qualified , and in like manner tim. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from these turn away , that is , as our translators well render it , from such turn away , and v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is rendered [ of this sort ] there are more of the like , thess. . . john . john . . luke . , , , &c. so grotius in luc. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , id est , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ut apud matthaeum , quomodo & hic syrus interpretatur . and this may be confirmed by reason thus , if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , luke . . must be expounded of this little childe , then the speech of christ is to be understood onely of that one individual little childe and no other , for in that sense it is a pronoun demonstrative , and so notes a demonstrative individual , as logicians speak , and so it shall note not onely the childe himself , as mr. b. observes , but even that particular little childe then present , and it would onely import a privilege appropriate to that little childe , and agreeing to no other , whereas the sense is manifest from the words there , and other places , matth. . . luke . . john . . to be this , whosoever shall receive any one that comes in my name , though he be as mean and as inconsiderable as this little childe , receiveth me ; and therefore it is added presently , for he that is least among you all , the same shall be great , which shews that by [ this ] or [ such a little childe ] he meant the apostles , whosoever receiveth any of you , though as mean as this little childe , or such a little childe , receiveth me . . there are sundry things in the text , and in parallel places , which do evince , that the receiving the little childe , neither is nor can be meant of a little childe in respect of age , much less an infant . as , . that it is supposed that the little childe here meant may be received in christs name , but that agrees not with the meaning of the speech as there is meant to understand it of a little childe in age . for receiving in christs name presupposeth coming in christs name , as john . . john . &c. that is either professing christs name or preaching or acting in christs name . and that this is presupposed here , luke . . appears partly by the phrase receiveth him that sent him , which intimateth this to be the force of the speech , he that receiveth one such little childe sent by me receiveth me , and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me , and partly from the very next v. . where john is said to answer and say taking occasion , as it seems by the relation from christs words , master we saw one casting out devils in thy name , which words intimate that he understood ▪ receiving in christs name to be meant of one acting or speaking in christs name , and thus is the phrase [ in my name , in the name of the lord ] often used matth. ▪ . & . . & . & . . which thing is more fully confirmed by mr. bs. parallel place . mark . , . it is plain that mark sets down christs words upon the same occasion of their contention for preheminence which luke doth , and the same words v. . and there expresseth it , whosoever shall receive one of such little ones in my name , which cannot be meant of that little one then set before them , but of his apostles and others who should be as mean as such a little one , and v. . expounds [ in my name ] of acting in my name , and v. . whosoever shall give you a cup of cold water in my name because ye are christs , that is , ye are sent by christ , or act for christ , which shews v. . to be meant of the apostles not little children in age , but such as did act for christ though mean as little children . the same may be proved from matth. . , , . . again , the receiving of the little childe proves it is not meant of a little childe in age . for what is the receiving ? it is , . by hearing luke . . . by entertaining upon travayl , as luke . , . they did not receive him by making ready for him , and mark . . by giving a cup of cold water , which was no small kindness to a travailer in those dry and hot countreys . but what kindness had this been to a little childe in age as an infant , that travayls not ? on the contrary , not receiving is expressed matth. . . mark . . by not entertaining them into their house nor hearing their words . so the new annot. on matth. . . [ he that receiveth you ] luke . . john . . that heareth your doctrine willingly , and entertaineth you , which receiving agrees not to infants , nor any other receiving mentioned in the gospels that hath such a blessing assured to it as here . . the reward annexed , to wit , the receiving of christ shews the receiving of a little one in christs name , to be another thing than the receiving of a little infant in christs name , that is , after mr. bs. silly conceit , the receiving into the visible church by baptizing it . for then the greatest blessing , that is , of receiving christ and his father should be annexed to so poor a thing as may be done by every poor presbyter , or curate , how ill mannerd soever he be ; the baptizing , that is , as now it s used and defended , the sprinkling of a little holy water on an infant . . it appears that a little infant is not meant luke . . from the description of the little childe there meant . for mr. b. himself compares that speech in luke with the like , matth. . . now such a little childe matth. . . is expressed v. . one of these little ones which believe in me , ( not as mr. cobbet in his just vindication , pag. . fondly conceives without any other author that ever i heard of besides himself , one of those little ones , who are the little ones of them that believe in me . for then it should be either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or some such supply , and it would be ridiculous to imagine the scandalizing to be of infants , the penalty of which is ●eavier than to have a milstone tied about the neck , and to be cast into the sea , that little infants are those not to be despised , whose angels behold the face of christs father , v. . the little ones matth. . . are called christs brethren , matth. . . answering to them that believe ) and v. . one that becomes as a little childe , v. . one that humbles himself as this little childe , which it is meer dotage to expound of little infants . again mr. b. referrs to matth. . . and there the little childe received is a prophet , and a righteous man. hereto i add the expressions of many writers . piscator ( to whom mr. blake refers ) analys . luc. . . innuit amorem suum ●rga demissos animo in exemplo pueruli praesentis . schol. in matth. . . propter nomen meum , propterea quod in me credit , beza annot . in matth. . . puerulum talem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , id est , quempiam ita se demi●t●ntem ut puerum referat : nec enim propriè de pueris agit . par●●s in matth. . . dicit , qui susceperit unum ex parv●lis talibus , hoc est , unum ex vobis pueri instar humiliatum . diodati on matth. . . [ one such ] namely , a true christian that shall have layd aside all worldly pride , whereby he is become abject in the sight of the world . new annot. in matth. . . [ one of these little ones ] who newly made profession of religion : on matth . . one like such a childe in the qualities before mentioned . mr. b. himself confesseth that some of these places speak of infants some of others : yet saith ●e , compared they plainly tell you this ; that to receive [ in christs name ] and [ as belonging to christ ] and [ as a disciple of christ ] in christs language is all one ; for they plainly express the same thing intended in all . from whence i infer , that if the same thing be intended in all , and all express the same thing , then is no other thing intended or expressed , luke . . than what is expressed and intended matth. . . mark . . matth. . . and then , it is certain that luke . . is not meant of a little infant in age , nor the receiving such as agrees to such an infant , sith it is certain that matth. . . marke . matth. . . are not understood of either of these , and it follows upon mr. bs. confession that some of these texts speak not of infants , that none of them speak of infants , sith they all express and intend the same thing ; and thus mr. bs. own observation refu●es himself . but saith he , when they are baptized it is into his name . answ. mr. b. it seems would have this the sense : whosoever receiveth to baptism in my name one little childe receiveth me to baptism , which should imply it to be a gratefull office to receive him to baptism , and the offending matth. . . and despising v. . should be not admitting to baptism , and when it is sayd [ whosoever ] shall receive one such little one , it would imply it to be a gratefull work for any person though no minister to receive to baptism , and an ungrateful work for any to refuse to baptize . i grant that in the places named to be such a little one , matth. . . to belong to christ , mark . . to be a disciple of christ , matth. . note the same sort of persons , yet i deny that proposition , which is the hinge of mr. bs. proof , [ every one that belongs to christ is a disciple of christ ] for the holy angels , those yet uncalled whom his father hath given him , john . . belong to christ , and yet are not to be called disciples of christ. and therefore i infer , that mr. b. hath no encouragement from christs exposition of these texts to account infants disciples , and what he collects in his own fancy without the text is frivolous and self contradicting , so little worth the standing on , that for my part i think this sheet of his book , what ever be said of the rest , worth no more than a sheet that is made thur is piperisque ●ucullus , yet he cannot forbear but must add more of this frivolous stuff . in answer to this objection , infants cannot learn , and therefore cannot be disciples , he adds thus much more . . they can partake of the protection and provision of their master ( as the children of those that the israelites bought ) and enjoy the privileges of the family and school , and be under his charge and dominion , and that is enough to make them capable of being disciples . answ. what privileges of christs family and school , infants enjoy , i know not , what ever they be what ever protection , provision , rule , care is for them , yet this is not enough to make them disciples , as christ meant , mat. . . till they have learnt , or profess learning of this lesson , that jesus is the christ ; all that is said here of children may be said of slaves bought with money , they are all then with him disciples of christ , though professed infidels . . they are , saith he , devoted to learning , if they live : however they are consecrated to him as their master , who can teach them hereafter , and that is yet more . answ. i may add , they may cry , as cyprian , and his sixty six bishops alleged for their baptism , and suck , and smile , and play with the mother , and that is more than this , but neither the one nor the other any thing to the denomination of a disciple of christ. . saith he , i wonder you should be more rigorous with christ in this case than you are with men . is it not common to call the whole nation of the turks both old and young by the name of mahometans , or disciples of mahomet ? answ. what a pretty passage is this to set out a man as rigorous with christ , who expounds his words matth. . . according to his constant language in all the evangelists , because he allows not infants to be called disciples , as if christ forsooth did plead for infants discipleship , and i were so stiff , as that i would not yield to him . but he thinks i will allow mahometans children to be called mahomets disciples , for it is the common use , and why not then we and our children by the name of christians and disciples of christ. answ. i confess i think the common use now is to call the turks young and old mahometans , and in chorographical relations , english , french , &c. are called christian nations , old and young , termed christians : but neither do i finde the common use to be to call infants either mahomets or christs disciples , nor if i did , should this sway me at all to allow infants discipleship according to matth. . . till scripture use of the term [ disciple ] applicable to that sense can be shewed . but mr. b. hath more of this childish arguing . and when a man hired a philosopher to teach him and all his children , were they not all then disciples of that philosopher ? they are entered under him as their master for future teaching , are at present in the relation of disciples . answ. it is no such strange thing to hear of a physician taking a stipend to cure a man and all his children , but to hear of a philosopher hired to teach a man , and all his children , even his infant children , and counting them disciples , and entering them under him as their master , is so strange to me that it seems to me somewhat like a tale of a man of gotham . yet if there were any such thing acted by wise men in sober sadness , it is nothing to prove infants disciples in christs or his apostles language . but the prettiest part of this comedy or poppet play of mr. b. is yet behinde . . saith he . and truly i wonder also that it should go so currant that infants are not capable of learning , the mother is a preacher to the infant , partly by her action and gesture and partly by voice . answ. and why not by smiles , and kisses and whipping ? but what then ? they can dishearten and take off from vices and teach them obedience . answ. t is true they can still them from crying : but how they can take them off from vices and teach them obedience to gods command i am yet to learn , it may be nurses may better inform me than mr. b. me thinks saith he , we should not make an infant less docible than some brutes . what doth mr. b. mean by this ? doth he think they that deny infants to be disciples allow brutes to be disciples ? a parret i think will sooner learn some words of christs than an infant , yet i think neither learn any thing of the doctrine of christ till they understand it . but i am referred to nurses , who he saith , will tell me more in this than he can , it may be so ; yet sure nothing to shew that any have made their infants learn the doctrine of christ. he adds . and what if they cannot at first learn to know christ ? even with men of years that is not the first lesson : if they may be taught any of the duty of a rational creature it is somewhat . answ. if they do not learn to know christ they learn not that which should make them disciples of christ. it is somewhat indeed that they can learn to kiss the mother , stroke her breasts , &c. but what 's this to make them disciples of christ ? and if they can learn nothing of the parents either by action or voyce ; yet christ hath other ways of teaching than by men even by the immediate working of his spirit . answ. 't is true , and he may make infants disciples , nor do i deny it to be done invisibly , but it would be a greater wonder than yet mr. b. hath had for all his wonderments , a very prodigy that any of them should become a visible disciple . 't is true they may learn something of god very young and are to be bred up in the nurture of the lord. but that in their infancy at two or three dayes old they are learners of the things of god , of the admonition of the lord from mothers and nurses is a fiction like galilaeus his new world in the moon , or copernicus his circumgyration of the earth . mr. b. tels us he might argue further , all that are saved are christs disciples , some infants are saved , ergo. and i might answer him , that they may be saved , and yet no visible disciples according to the meaning of christ matth. . but sith he hath put this off to another time i shall take a little breathing from mr. b. and set him aside a little while till i have heard what his seniors say further for their baby-baptism . sect . xvi . dr. featley and mr. stephens arguings from john . . for infant-baptism are answer●d , and baptism shewed not be a cause of regeneration , and mr. cranfords words considered . there are some other texts brough● to prove an institution of infant-baptism out of the new testament which i shall take in though the assembly and the chiefest i have to do with in this controversie do omit them . the ancients were wont to allege joh. . . to prove infants are to be baptized after christs appointment , or rather the reasonableness and necessity of the churches appointment . augustine in his writings often joyns rom. . , and john . . as the reason of infant baptism lumb . sent. . dist. . allegeth some as making the institution of baptism to be john . . the papists commonly allege john . . for the necessity of infant-baptism , becan . manual . l. . c. . mandatum habemus , joan. . . they are refuted by the protestants , as chamier tom . . l. . de bapt . c. . yet vossius thes . th. de paedobapt . thes . . brings it , to which being in latin i have answered in latin in my refutation of dr. savage his supposition , though contrary to my expectation not yet printed , dr. featley in his dipper dipt , p. . . makes it one of his prime arguments for infant-baptism , p. . he thus argues . if none can enter into the kingdom of god but those that are born of water and the spirit ; that is , those that are baptized with water and regenerated by the spirit , then there is a necessity of baptizing children , or else they cannot enter into the kingdom of god , ( that is ordinarily ) for we must not tie god to outward means . but the former is true . ergo , the latter . and pag. . none ought to exclude the children of the faithfull out of the kingdom of heaven . but by denying them baptism ( as much as in us lieth ) we exclude them out of the kingdom of heaven ▪ for as christ affirmed to nicodemus , and confirmed it with a double oath or most vehement asseveration , amen , amen ; or verily , verily ( i say unto thee ) except a man he born of water and the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven , ergo , we ought not to deny them baptism . answ. this arguing is the same in effect notwithstanding the doctors mincing it ( which is but a little ) with that which the papists bring for their horrid tenet of exclusion out of the kingdom of heaven of infants dying unbaptized . for he holds that there is a necessity of baptizing children or else they cannot enter into the kingdom of god ordinarily . in which assertion he denies any infants enterance into the kingdom of god ordinarily without water-baptism . and no more is said as i conceive by the more moderate papists , such as biel , cajetan , gerson , cited by perkins in his preparative to the demonstration of the probleme . but no marvail the doctor ; who was addicted to the common prayer book , concurred thus far with the papists : for in it the doctrine of augustin , and others is retained , of asserting the necessity of infant-baptism because of original sin and christs words , ioh. . . as appears by the preface appointed to be used before the solemnity of baptism . but protestant divines do generally refute this opinion , as e. g. chamier panstr . cath. tom . . l. . de bapt. c. . &c. teaching that infants of believers are ordinarily holy , and admitted into the kingdom of heaven , though dying unbaptized ? but to answer his arguments , . it 's known that calvin , piscator , and many more do take [ water ] metaphorically , and the conjunction [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and ] to be exegetical not coupling differing things , but expounding what is meant by [ water ] as if he had said , that water which is the spirit , as when it is said mat. . . he shall baptize with you the holy ghost and with fire , that is , with the holy ghost , which is as fire . and this they conceive as necessary , that the speech of christ may be verified . for simply understood it is false , sith the thief on the cross , sundry martyrs and others have entered into the kingdom of heaven unbaptized . and this exposition chamier panstrat . cath. tom . . lib. . cap. . hath taken upon him to maintain against the opposites to it , and if true the objection of dr. featley fals , which rests on this , that there a necessity of water-baptism is imposed on all that shall enter into the kingdom of god. nevertheless i confess my self unsatisfied in this exposition . ▪ because i do not think that matth. . . by [ fire ] is meant the holy ghost as being like fire in his operation on every sanctified person : but that the words are an express prophesie of what christ also foretold , acts . . and was accomplished at pentecost , acts . . when the holy ghost filled them , and fiery cloven tongues sate upon each of them . . because if it were parallel to that place , and [ water ] were used metaphorically , ( as is said by them ) and exegetically added [ water ] should be after , and [ spirit ] before , as matth. . . [ spirit ] is first , and [ fire ] after , and after the usual manner of speaking , it should run thus , except a man be born of the spirit and water , if it were to be expounded of the spirit which is as water . dr. homes animadv . on my exercit : pag. . allegeth bullinger , saying , omnes penè de baptismo , ioh. . . interpretantur , to which he adjoyns bullingers , and his own consent . ▪ for these reasons i am much inclined to expound it of the element of water . yet , . am very apt to conceive , that forasmuch as mr. selden de jurenat . & gent. juxta discipl . heb. lib. . cap. . tels us that when the iews did initiate proselytes by baptizing them with water , they called it regenerating , and that christ , when he taunts nicodemus with dulness in being a master in israel , and yet not knowing of regeneration , but by imagining a natural new-birth , when regeneration was frequent in baptizing proselytes among the iews , insomuch that by it they taught a person lost his natural relations of kinred as he shews , lib. . c. . and hath these words in the place above cited , [ tamet si de eâ quae spiritu fit non solùm aquâ loqueretur christus ] our saviour meant baptism of water , not according to his apostles practice , but the iews , and that the sense is this , except a man be born of water , and of the spirit , that is , except a man be not onely born again by water , as ye pharisees regenerate , when ye make proselytes , but also by the spirit , as i do beget again he cannot enter into the kingdom of god , although he may enter into the common-wealth or policy of israel : which sense nevertheless doth not assert a necessity of their water-regeneration , but onely of christs spiritual regeneration , and the insufficiency of the other by it self , which is so much the more probable , because i finde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 used for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , and for but , motth . . . & . . acts . . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , acts . . seems to answer to [ not onely but also ] yet because i finde not a place every way parallel , i onely propound it to be examined . but . it being granted that it is meant of christs water-baptism , yet papists themselves make not such a necessity of it as is without limitation and exception , and therefore they put in some one , some another restriction , which chamier in the place alleged reduceth to four : . unless the person be baptized either with the baptism of water , or some other thing instead of it , as the baptism of bloud and spirit . . if they may be baptized , and they despise it . . if they be not baptized with that regeneration which is by water , though it may be otherwise also . . if they be neither baptized in deed nor desire . why may not then this limitation be added , except a man be born again of water , that is , except such a person of whom baptism is required , according to my institution , be born of water , when he may have it , and it s cleared to him to be his duty , he cannot enter into the kingdom of god. and indeed this and such like speeches mark . . iohn . , ● , &c. that require faith as well as baptism , are to be understood of persons to whom the gospel is preached , and do or may hear it , and speak not of infants , whom we finde not that god enters into the kingdom of heaven any other way than by his invisible election and operation of his spirit . and it is observable , that whereas iohn . . our saviour joyns water and spirit as means of regeneration , yet v. . he names onely the spirit , omitting water ; whence may be gathered , that water is not of such universal unrestrained necessity , that in no case a person is not born again without it , nor admissible into the kingdom of god , yet such as is necessary ordinarily to those to whom the gospel is preached , and their duty made known . whence in answer to the doctors argument i say , that his speeches are to be thus limited at least , none can enter into the kingdom of god ordinarily without baptism , to wit , of those to whom the gospel is preached , their duty made known , and baptism may be had ; and to his later argument i answer , by denying that children are excluded out of the kingdom of heaven by denying them baptism , sith those unbaptized persons onely are excluded who are appointed to be baptized , to whom the gospel is preached , the duty of baptism made known , and they may have it administred to them , which cannot be said of infants . mr. nathaniel stephens in his book intituled , a precept for the baptism of infants out of the new testament , having premised some thing about the text , iohn . . pag. , , , , . about the necessity of baptism of water , and the efficacy of it , in which many things are meerly dictated , and very slightly handled , he would infer pag. , &c. a precept for infant-baptism from iohn . . because infants are guilty of original sin , where the disease is there is need of the remedy , when christ doth press a necessity of washing both by water and the spirit , he doth not this so immediately in reference to actual sin , as in reference to birth-sin , and to the natural pollution in which infants are born . the same is the plea of mr. thomas fuller in his infants advocate , c. . answ. that either baptism of water or circumcision are made the remedy of original sin is more than i finde in scripture , though it go as currant among many of former and later times . it is true our lord christ saith , except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of god , john . . and he assigns this as a reason thereof , v. . that which is born of the flesh is flesh , but that either thereby he intended to make baptism as the remedy of sin , or of original sin rather than actual is more than appears , for though our lord christ v. . make regeneration to be by water and spirit yet i conceive regeneration is by the spirit onely as the cause , by baptism of water onely as the sign , whereby the person baptized testifies that he is born again by the spirit . now a remedy is a cause and not a sign onely : no man calls that which is onely a sign of cure a remedy , but that which doth operate for healing . that baptism of water is not the cause of regeneration appears . . because v. . our saviour giving the reason of the necessity of regeneration and the effect of regeneration , leaves ou● [ water ] and mentions onely [ the spirit ] . because the person baptized is supposed to be born again , to be a repenting and believing person afore he is baptized : but if baptism were the cause it should be before regeneration , ( for the cause is before the effect ) and so men should be baptized afore they are believers , or repenting persons , which is absurd , and contrary to the scripture , mark . . acts . . &c. and contrary to the order of christ that persons should be made disciples afore they were baptized matth. . . because it is altogether inexplicable how the use of water can be a cause either principal or instrumental to work a new birth or inward change on the soul ; if it be sayd , that it is by virtue of gods promise , it is meet that promise should be shewed , that at , by or upon the use of baptism , god hath promised to regenerate persons . that it is a sign of regeneration will not be i suppose denyed ; for it is made the sign of repentance ( which is all one with regeneration ) and therefore called the baptism of repentance acts . . because as beza on v. . baptism was symbolum resipiscentiae , the token of repentance . and so in like manner it was the sign of faith , and therefore the apostle gal. . . saith , that as many as were baptized into christ had put on christ , that is , had by the sign of baptism testified their putting on christ by faith . and in this sense it is termed the washing of regeneration ( if baptism be meant by it ) tit. . . because by that washing the person baptized testifies his regeneration . and rom. . . we are buried with him by baptism into death , that is , we by being under water testifie our dying to sin conformably to christs death and burial . and in this sense paul is bid acts . . to wash away his sins , that is , by baptism to testifie his purging from his sins . and so christ is said to sanctifie and cleanse his church with washing of water , ephes. . . that is , as beza annot , in locum , as representing what he entirely doth effect within . mr. iames cranford in his epistle to mr. thomas bedford printed at the end of the friendly accommodation between mr. bedford and mr. baxter , saith , that he conceives the ground of anabaptism to have been the erroneous doctrine de nudis signis , in which he is more confirmed by what i answered once to an argument drawn by him from ephes. . from the efficacy of baptism to inforce the baptizing of infants , that if that tenent could be clearly proved , i would no longer oppose that practice . concerning which i say , i remember not all that passed from me in the dispute he mentions , i did think that which i put down in my exerci● ▪ sect . . had been his argument . but this i still say , that could it be clearly proved that christ ever appointed baptism of water taken severedly from the preaching of the word to be the cause of regeneration , or that god had assured that by outward baptism with water he would confer regenerating grace to an infant , i should not oppose the practice of paedobaptism . what mr. bedford hath produced for the efficacy of baptism , hath been answered by mr. baxter in his appendix to his plain scripture , &c. nor doth it appear to me that mr. b. is of his minde , notwithstanding what letters have past between them now printed , and the syncretism yielded to in the printing of the friendly accommodation , and leaving out the appendix . dr. burges his treatise of baptismal regeneration , hath been freely censured by many . dr. ieremiah taylour in his discourse of baptism hath like an orator rather than a disputant pleaded for infant-baptism from the efficacy of baptism , more from speeches of the fathers than from the scripture . sure i am , baptism was appointed by christ , and used in the examples of the scripture , as a testimony of repentance , of faith in christ , no cause of either . and therefore i deny baptism to be the remedy of original sin , or the cause of regeneration , or that christ intended to assign the use to baptism to heal original sin , or to testifie the freedom from it without actual . these things have been delivered by augustine , and taught by the romanists and lutherans , but by many other protestants disclaimed and refuted ; and therefore mr. stephens , mr. cranford , mr. bedford , &c. in using this argument do but symbolize with the papists , and revive what many protestants of best note have exploded . sect . xvii , the . chapter of mr. bs. plain scripture proof , &c. is answered , and mark . , , , . is shewed to make nothing for infants visible church-membership and baptism , and his description of visible church-membership is considered , and his argument from deut. . shewed to be insufficient . there are yet some other texts which are brought by paedobaptists out of the new testament , for an institution and practice of infant-baptism . mr. b. plain scripture proof of infant-baptism , part . . cap. . brings mark . , . to prove that , christ hath expresly assured us that he hath not repealed the privilege of infants visible church-membership , and upon it fals to his rhetorick , and tels us of his boldness in adventuring on this rule . all which i judg frivolous ; nor needs it any further answer , there being no new argument , and what he before spake of that scripture is answered before sect. . where it is shewed that mark . . by [ little childe ] is not meant one that is so in respect of age , but in respect of quality , and that the receiving is not meant of baptism , but entertainment in receiving the doctrine brought , and shewing kindness to their persons . but he adds , and it is not once but oft that he hath thus manifested his will : in the very next chapter he doth it more fully yet , mark . , , . and they brought young children to him that he should touch them ; and his disciples rebuked those that brought them : but when jesus saw it , he was much displeased , and said to them , suffer ye little children to come unto me , and forbid them not , for of such is the kingdom of god. verily i say unto you , whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little childe he shall not enter therein : and he took them up in his arms , put his hands on them , and blessed them . and is not here enough to satisfie us yet , that he doth not cast all infants in the world out of his visible kingdom or church ? but that it is his will they should be admitted ? will any say that it was not infants in the former text and this that christ speaks of ? did he take any but infants into his arms ? was it not plainly them that he did bid them receive ( in the former chapter ) and was it not them that he would not have to be kept from him ? and was it not them that he bid should be suffered to come ( that is to be brought ) and was it not them that he blessed ? answ. mr. m. in his sermon had alleged this tex to prove , that the infants of believers even while they are infants do receive the inward grace as well as grown men . i answered , . it is doubtfull whether those little children mark . . were infants . . whether it be said of them , is the kingdom of heaven . . whether they were believers infants . . whether the kingdom of heaven be said to be of them in their present estate or their future . . the reason why of them is the kingdom of heaven may be referred to christs blessing , not to their parents faith . that christs action in this was proper to him , as the great prophet , and extraordinary , and therefore not fit to make a constant rule for an ordinance , and if it be to that use it is more apposite to establish confirmation than baptism , sith christ did neither baptize , nor appoint them to be baptized , though he said of them is the kingdom of heaven . in all likelihood , if infant-baptism had been according to christs minde he would have taken this occasion to appoint it , which he not doing , it is very probable that he would not have it done . to all which mr. m. in his defence pag. , . replied onely this , that they were dictates and brought in to little purpose , whereas there is nothing sayd by me without reason and some proof , and yet i being a respondent it was more than my business necessitated me to produce so much , a denial being sufficient for the respondent . and whereas he saith i grant enough to serve his turn , that the kingdom of heaven did belong to those infants and concludes that their infants in their infantile age are capable of inward grace , and some of them actually partakers of it , and this is enough for him , and that more than this cannot be said of grown men who are visible professors . to it i say , though i should grant that the kingdom of heaven did belong to these infants , yet it serves not his turn to prove thence that the infants of believers are visible church-members , and that believers infants have right to baptism , except it be proved that their parents were believers , that the kingdom of heaven for that reason did belong to them , and in this thing was intended by christ , the establishing a settled rule for infants interest in the church and baptism . capacity of inward grace is not denied to infants , no not to turks infants : whether any of them be partakers actually of inward grace is not determined : nor is it true that no more can be sayd of grown men : for the making of visible profession may be said of grown m●n , which cannot be said of infants . but mr. b. is eager for infant-baptism as conclusible hence , le ts see what he saies . first he begins with his rhetorick , which commonly supplies the want of proof . then he heaps ●p seven or eight inte●rogations , and takes all for granted which he demands . but to them i say . to the first , . i except against his expression which infinuates as if by denying that infants are visible church-members they were cast out of christs visible church , whereas it is one thing not to reckon them in and another to cast them out , which is but once used in scripture iohn . and this phrase serves onely to provoke passion . . it is so far from being true that there is enough in those texts to satisfy that christ would have infants admitted into his visible church , that it is rather true on the contrary that there is enough against it . to his other questions , i answer . . by denying that they were infants he would have received mark . . . whether they were infants he took in his arms , whom he would not to be kept from him , but suffered to come to him , and whom he blessed , it is uncertain . piscator , estius , &c. conceive they were young ones that could come of themselves being called . but be it granted they were infants , le ts see what mr. b. gathers thence . hence , saith he , i argue thus . . if christ would have us receive infants in his name , then we must receive them as belonging to him and his church . but he would have us to receive them in his name ▪ therefore &c. . if he that receiveth an infant in his name receiveth himself , then some infants are to be received in his name ; and those that refuse them sin : but the former is true , therefore the later . answ. . both the conclusions might be granted and yet mr. bs. cause not gained , the former , because infants may belong to christ and his church , to wit , the invisible , and yet it not be proved thence they are visible church-members ; the later , because they may be received in christs name as by harbouring , feeding them , and yet not be admitted to baptism . . the minor in both syllogismes is false : for the text mark . . speaks not of infants in age to be received , but of believers that are humble , and low in condition as infants , particularly of his apostles . . saith mr. b. if christ was much displeased with those that kept particular infants from visible access to him , then ( though they could not keep them from his visible grace ) i think he will be much more displeased with those that keep all the infants in the world from visible access to him in his church now ( though they cannot keep them from the invisible church : ) but the former is true : therefore the later . answ. the conclusion is granted . for what visible access to christ in his church now can be but by profession of faith i know not . if mr. b. know of any that keep infants from professing faith let him threaten them , and spare not . but that which he tels us that we keep infants from visible access to christ , because we baptize them not for want of profession of faith , is but a squib that may affright women and children , when intelligent persons laugh at it . . saith he , if christ command us to suffer them to come , and not to forbid them , then those sin against his express command that will not suffer them to come but do forbid them , ( for it is a standing command and speaks of infants , and not of these individuals onely ; and there is now no other visible admittance to christ but by admitting into his church and to be his disciples ) but &c. therefore &c. answ. the conclusion is granted without any detriment to our cause : we forbid not any to come to christ. there 's no coming to christ no was those little children came , that is , to come to his person for blessing , cure , or teaching by himself in the flesh . there 's no coming to christ now but by hearing his word , and believing in him , as john . . is expressed . if any forbid infants to do so let him bear the blame . but we forbid infants to be baptized till they come to christ , that is , till they believe , and we are sure we have the scripture for us , matth. . . mark . . acts . . ephes. . . gal. . , . a thing so known that all that heretofore baptized infants did take this as unquestionable , that believers onely are to be baptized , and therefore to justifie infant-baptism they run into wilde fancies , as that they believe in the church , in their parents , in their sureties , in their being baptized . but mr. bs. hold is in his parenthesis , against which i except , . that his speech of [ admitting into his church , and to be his disciples ] supposeth that a person is first admitted into christs church , and then to be his disciple , whereas no man is rightly admitted into christs church , who is not first a disciple . . that he saith , this luke . . is a standing commandment . but this we must take on mr. bs. word , there 's nothing in the text , or in mr. bs. writing to prove it . nor is it likely . for if so , me thinks the apostles and the writers of the new testament should not have been so negligent as neither to observe this command after this time , nor to have recorded any act done by the apostles according to that command . . that chists speech is of the species of infants , and not of these individuals onely . . is said without proof , yea it is more probable that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is as much as , suffer these little children to come to me , and that because , as paedobaptists urge , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of such is the kingdom of heaven , ( which is the reason of christs injunction ) is meant of those infants . . were it granted not to be meant of those individuals onely , yet this is all that can be thence proved , that if after that time other infants were brought to christ in that manner to be touched by him , they should be suffered . it may be granted , that there is now no other visible admittance to christ but by admitting into his church . but this is enough to prove that there is now no such visible admittance to christ as those mark . had , who were admitted to christs person to be touched by him , and not into his visible church by baptism . . saith mr. b. if of such be the kingdom of god , then of such is the visible church : but the former is true . therefore , &c. answ. the consequence is denied . of infants in the mothers womb , as jacob , john baptist , &c. is the kingdom of god , and yet the visible church is not of such . but saith mr. b. here they have two cavils against the plain sense of the text , . by [ such ] is meant [ such for doc●ble●ess and humility ] to which i answer , . then it seems they are so docible and humble , that the kingdom belongs to them . for if it belong to others , because they are such as them , then it must needs belong to others also . answ. mr. bs. censure of the answers i gave as cavils is as the rest of this his dispute rash and inconsiderate . for the very words mark . . do directly ▪ lead to that sense i give , and the words of christ matth. . , . plainly expound wherein they that enter into the kingdom of god must be like children . but to the matter of his answer , . the conclusion is granted , nor was it ever denyed by me , that of some infants is the kingdom of god , and particularly of those whom christ blessed , but yet not because of their docibleness and humility , but because of christs blessing . nor do i allow mr. bs. consequence , that if the kingdom did belong to others , because they are such as them , then it must needs belong to them also . for the kingdom of heaven did belong to others , because they are such as them in the properties common to them with other children . but the kingdom of heaven did belong to them as blessed by christ , not in respect of docibleness and humility . it may be it will be said , that then little children have those properties for which of them may be the kingdom of god. i answer , it doth not follow : but this onely follows that there is such teachableness and humility in little children in other respects , which other men imitating and expressing in spiritual things , and so becoming such as they are by analogy and resemblance , in that respect belong to the kingdom of god. . saith mr. b. doth christ say , to such as them in this or that respect onely , and not to them , ( or saith he ) not in general , to such ? even to such as he took in his arms and blessed ? he would not have taken up , and blessed any , for a meer emblem of such as were blessed ; he would not have taken up and blessed a lamb or a dove as emblems of humility and innocency . if christ say , [ of such ] is the kingdom , i am bound to take scripture in the most extensive sense , till there be a plain reason to necessitate me to restrain it . and therefore must understand it [ to such ] both of that age , or any other age . who dare think that the word [ to such ] is not rather inclusive as to them than exclusive ? if i love humble poor men , and my servants keep them from my house because they are poor , and if i chide them for it , and say , suffer such to come to me , and forbid them not , for my delight is in such : who would so interpret this speech as to think i would exclude them , while i command their admittance ? and that i meant other humble ones , and not these ? answ. doth mr. b. say , to such in general in respect of age onely belongs the kingdom of god. if he do say so ( as his words seem to import ) then it follows , that to every infant , whether of believers or unbelievers , elect or reprobate , belongs the kingdom of god : if not , then he must say as i say , if he will speak truth , that . to those infants belonged the kingdom in this respect onely as they were blessed by christ , or elect . . if it be applied to other infants , it can be applied to no others but such as are blessed by christ , or elect . . and for other persons , that under the term [ of such ] are meant also persons of age like them in humility and teachableness is so manifest from v. . matth. . . . . that it is nothing but cavilling in mr. b. thus to carp at my plain and clear exposition of the words agreeable to the most approved expositors , as beza annot. ad matth. . . talium 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] id est , horum & similium ut supra . piscat : sch ▪ in matth. . . talium ] 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , quales scilicet sunt isti pueruli , nempe credentes in me & demissè de se sen●ientes ▪ confer . supra , c. . . & seq . that i omit others . neither do i , nor need i say , that christ took them , or blessed the little ones for a meer emblem of such as were blessed , or that he might , by like reason with mine , have taken up and blessed a lamb or a dove as emblems of humility . and though mr. bs. rule may be questioned , whether a man be bound to take scripture in the most extensive sense till there be a plain reason to necessitate him to restrain it , yet i gainsay it not , to understand [ to such ] both of that age or any other , and i allow that christ meant those , and other humble ones , and that the term [ of such ] is both inclusive , including more than those particular little ones ; and exclusive , of those that are not elect or blessed by christ. and though i maintain by firm arguments in my postscript to mr. blake , sect . . that by the kingdom of heaven , as in matth. . . or of god , as mark . . luke . . is meant the kingdom of glory , ( which mr. b. denies not ) yet were it allowed mr. b. that it is meant of the visible church , it is not true of all infants of believers , that of them is the visible church , for infants in the womb , as jacob , are of the kingdom of god , that is the invisible church , yet not of the visible , much less of the species of infants , as mr. b. speaks . for then every individual infant should be of the visible church , though the parents be unbelievers , which mr. b. me thinks should gainsay : and therefore there is plain reason necessitating to restrain the speech of christ , as i do . . saith mr. b. when mr. t. maketh their docibleness the thing intended by christ , he forgot that he judged them uncapable of being disciples . why may not those be disciples who are not onely docible , but exemplary for their teachableness . answ. mr. t. tels mr. b. he did not forget , but thinks mr. b. did not heed . the docibleness allowed to infants was in things natural , such as are to know the nurse , imitate gestures , to be stilled from crying when rebuked , &c. but not in things spiritual , to know christ to be the son of god , the messiah , &c. which are necessary to denominate them disciples of christ. yet such teachableness , and humility onely negative , in not ambitiously affecting preheminence are sufficient for christ to propound them as examples or similitudes rather , to direct his disciples to imitate in another kinde . their second objection , saith mr ▪ b. is that by [ the kingdom of god ] is meant the kingdom of heaven . and i think so too : but then if the kingdom of heaven belong to such , much more a standing as members in the visible church : for what is it to be a member of the church visible , but to be one that in seeming or appearance , or to the judgment of man , doth belong to the invisible church or the kingdom of heaven ? for the church is but one , and the difference respective as i shewed before : therefore both visible and invisible , both military and triumphant are called in scripture [ the kingdom of heaven or of god ] if a man be known ( or any sort of men ) to belong to the church invisible , then they visibly belong to it ; and then they are visible members 〈◊〉 the church : so that this proof is more full for infants church-membership , than if it had been said , they may be visibl● church-members . for it saith much more of them which includeth that . answ. mr. b. thinks it seems with me that by the kingdom of god is meant the kingdom of heaven , that is , of glory , or the invisible church ; which if true , then of no infants but elect is the kingdom of god , for no other are of the invisible church , or enter into the kingdom of glory . and if so , not the the very species of infants but particular persons , and of these not all perhaps but a few of the infants of believers , perhaps more of the infants of unbelievers are of the kingdom of god. but however he thinks it will follow à majori , that if of infants is the kingdom of god , that is the invisible church or kingdom of glory , then much more they have a standing in the visible church . to which i say , . if this argument were good , it could onely prove those infants to be of the visible church who are elect . . it can prove it onely of those who in seeming or appearance , or to the judgment of men do belong to the invisible church , or be known to belong to the invisible church . but no infants in particular are known to belong to the invisible church , nor is there any note whereby any infant in particular may be discerned to be of the invisible church , which may make it seem or appear to the judgment of man , ergo , there is no infant , no not according to mr. bs. own description , hath a standing in the visible church . the minor of this argument i expect should be denied , but it will concern them that do deny it , to shew us out of scripture , where god hath given us any sign , though but probable , to judg such an infant to be of the invisible church of the elect , such a one not . if any say gods covenant and the parents faith . i reply , god hath plainly declared rom. . , , , , , , . that he hath not made any promise to the natural seed of abraham , that he will be their god in respect of saving grace , much less to the natural seed of every or any believer of this time , but that notwithstanding any covenant he hath made , he takes the seed of unbelievers to be his children , and leaves the seed of bellevers to be hardened : and this appeared plainly in jacob and esau of the same parents believers , born together , yet one loved , the other hated , and the gentiles called , when the jews were rejected . we say truly the book of life is a secret which belongs to god , who hath hidden it , yea hath so ordered it by the strange variations of his calling , that his judgments should be unsearchable , and his paths past finding out , rom. . . and therefore no man hath warrant from gods word to frame any judgment concerning this or that infant to be of the invisible church . but because mr. b. says somewhat to prove his consequence , let us consider what he brings . that which he sayth is , . the church is but one , and the difference respective . . he that saith that they belong to the invisible , saith much ▪ more , even that which includeth that they are visible , ( if i understand his obscure expressions ) church-members . . that to be a member of the church visible , is to be one that in seeming or appearance , or to the judgment of man , doth belong to the invisible church , or the kingdom of heaven . answ. . it is true , the universal church of the elect is but one , and the difference respective , yet the difference such , that all the invisible are not of the visible church , nor all the visible of the invisible ; nor by any good consequence can it be made good , they that are of the invisible are much more of the visible , no not when they are known to be of the invisible church . the first is manifest by instances , the spirits of the just made perfect , elect persons yet unbegotten , yet uncalled , called , but not yet shewing it are of the invisible church , but not of the visible : on the other side , secret hypocrites are of the visible , but not of the invisible . and the last assertion is manifest , in that though it is more to be of the invisible church than of the visible , yet that which denominates a person of the visible church doth not agree always to a member of the invisible church . but mr. b. thinks the contrary to be true , and accordingly frames an explication of what it is to be a member of the church visible , which i must not call a definition , for that is excepted against by him , praefestin : morator , sect . . as if in logick any descriptions or explications of words or things were not usually called definitions , though imperfect . let 's examine it however . he tels us here what it is to be a visible church-member , which because he doth elsewhere more fully express , i shall have an eye on the writings elsewhere , and so much the rather , because in this mistake of his lieth much of the fallacy of mr. bs. second argument . in his praefest . morator , sect . . he saith , when he distinguisheth the church into visible and invisible , he doth not divide the genus into the species , sed aequivocum in sua aequivocata : but i think he is mistaken in this ; for then a term is equivocal , as arist. categ . in the beginning tels us , when the name is onely common , but not the reason of being , or the definition according to that name ; but the definition of the church of christ , even that which mr. b. himself saith , all divines are agreed on plain scripture , &c. pag. . that it is a society of persons separated from the world to god , or called out of the world , doth agree to the visible church , and therefore the term [ church of christ ] is not an equivocal term , but a genus , whether univocal , or analogum . and i add , saith he , that the reason of the appellation given to the visible body is , its seeming to be the same with the mystical ; or that the name is given secondarily , borrowedly from the mystical to the visible . answ. i grant that the church invisible is famosius or primarium analogatum , that is , the invisible church is more truly , or in a greater degree of propriety christs church than the visible , yet do not think the name of the church is given secondarily , borrowedly , from the mystical to the visible . for the original meaning of the word ] [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , translated church ] being [ an assembly , or meeting , or congregation of people in one place ] ( who are an object visible ) i conceive that the term [ church first agrees to the visible church , and secondarily to the invisible , yea in exact speech the invisible church now are called [ the church ] in order to their meeting , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or general assembly at the last day , for heb. . . these are joined together , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the general assembly and church , or as it is termed thess. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , our gathering together unto christ , at which time the visible church and invisible will be all one visible company , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one sheepfold one sh●pheard , john . . nor do i conceive the reason of the appellation given to the visible body is its seeming to be the same with the mystical , but because by their words and actions discernible by sense they own christ as their lord without any consideration of their election or reprobation , sincerity or hypocrisy , christs approbation , or non-approbation of them . and that the seeming to other men to be of the invisible church , is not the reason of the appellation of a visible church or church-member , i gather hence , becaus a person may seem to be of the invisible church , yea may be known to be of the invisible church of gods elect , as for instance , jacob and john baptist in their mothers womb seemed , yea were known to be of the invisible church of gods elect , luke . . yet not of the visible . for sure they were not visible church-members , when they were not visible men . yea there may be many visible men who may seem , with great probability upon signs of their conversion wrought on them , to be of the invisible church , and not of the visible as a number of indians hearing mr. eliat , or mr. mayhew ▪ preach , and shewing affection by tears , smiting of their breasts , lifting up their eys to heaven and such like actions , have seemed , from these sensible expressions , of their own , to be elect persons , such as god intended to save , and yet i think no man will say that at that time they were visible church-members till they afterwards made profession of faith in christ. mr. b. goeth on thus , so that if you ask me , whether it be certain or onely probable , that infants are members of the visible church ? i say , certain . answ. if mr. b. mean it of the sorts or as he cals it species of infants , it may easily appear by this review that it is so far from being certain [ that infants are members of the visible church christian ] that it hath scarse a shew of probability . if he mean it of the individuals , i say that according to mr. bs. own sayings , there is no certainty that any infant is a visible church-member . for according to him to be a member , of the church visible is to be one that in seeming , or appearance , or to the judgment of man , doth belong to the invisible church , or the kingdom of heaven , but this belonging in seeming appearance , or to the judgment of man is uncertain , it s but a judgment of probability which any man , hath of any mans belonging to the invisible church , mr. b. himself plain scripture &c. p. . sayth , therefore even cardinal cu●anus calleth the visible church ecclesia conjecturalis , as receiving its members on conjectural signs . therefore there is no certainty of it that any particular infant is a visible church-member . if it be sayd that the seeming is certain , though it be not certain that they belong to the invisible church , i reply , so it may be sayd that if turks infants seem to be of the visible church , though to a fool or frantick man , the seeming is certain . but i suppose mr. b. means that it is certain and not onely probable to considerate men to whom things are not certain of which they have not certain evidence , that infants are visible church-members . but this ( understanding it of particulars ) is not certain upon any good evidence that they are members of the church invisible , and therefore it is not certain they are visible church-members sith by mr. bs. description , to be a visible church-member is to seem to be of the invisible church , and therefore as the seeming to be of the invisible church is , so is the visibility , both uncertain and as most probable , and so all baptizing of infants is upon uncertain grounds and therefore a man cannot do it in faith he being uncertain he doth his duty : which thing is also made good elsewhere from mr. bs. concessions antipaedobapt . part . . sect . . but mr. b. thinks he hath sure grounds , and therefore he added ! if you ask me , what is it that directly or immediatly constituteth them such members . i answer , their visible or audible , that is their external engagement by covenant to christ : this ( performed by the parent for them ) is it on their part ; supposing christs title to them , and the offer of himself in covenant . answ. i grant that the visible or audible that is their external engagement by covenant to christ doth make the persons so ingaging freely , seriously , soberly , and understandingly , visible church-members . but that the parents performing this for the childe doth make the infants such directly and immediately , is an assertion not proved by mr. b. nor is it true , nor consistent with the descriptions of the visible church and sayings about it , which protestants of note give , nor doth it as here and elsewhere set down by mr. b. yield any sure ground to know certainly any particular infant to be a visible church-member . that i may make good these in their order . two things are supposed and one thing named as directly and immediately constituting infants visible church-members . the things supposed are , . christs title to them , . the offer of himself in covenant to them . but there is nothing but ambiguity in these expressions . for . it is uncertain whether he mean that these are supposed when the parent doth perform the engagement for the childe that christ hath a title to them , and that he doth offer himself in covenant to them : or whether he mean that the parents engagement doth constitute the childe a visible church member , if christ have a title to it and offer himself in covenant to it . if in the former sense , then it had been enough to have mentioned the parents act without that supposition ; if in the later , then what ever the parents act be yet no man is certain of the childes visible church-membership by it alone without the other two . . what title of christ to them he means whether by election and gift of his father to him , or by his spirit , which he that hath not is none of his , rom. . . or what other title he means i am uncertain . . what covenant he means whether the absolute covenant of grace belonging to the elect , or the conditional covenant to all upon condition of faith , or the national covenant made to abraham , and the people of israel , o● ▪ what other besides i cannot tell how to determine . . how the covenant is offered except by preaching to them or by some secret work of the spirit i cannot imagine . . it is somewhat uncertain whether the external engagement that may make the infant a visible church-member must not be of a parent that is a real and sincere believer , or whether a dogmatical faith serves turn . sure in his plain scrip. &c. chap. . part . . he makes a real faith necessary in the parent to that sanctification without which the childe is not holy , that is a visible church-member . . whether he make the parents engagement to constitute immediately infants born or unborn also visible church-members is uncertain . le ts see what we can gather elsewhere i cannot for present find a place where he more fully expresseth himself than in his plain scrip . &c. pag. . of the first edition , whereas saith he , some stick at it that i make the condition of the infants church-membership and justification to be wholly without him in the faith of the parent ; i answer them . . that it is evident in all the scripture that god putteth a very great difference between the children of the faithfull and other mens . which i grant , but withall that this is true onely of the sincerely faithfull and not onely inexternal profession , and yet not so as to count any a visible church-member in the christian church for the parents faith . . saith he , that he maketh such promises to them , and giveth them such privileges as i have exprest in this book . but if he mean by the promises those of the covenant of grace , i say , they are made onely to elect and true believers , if other promises of temporal blessings they are not made to the children of meer seeming believers but true believers , nor do they at all reach to visible church-membership or justification of children . these privileges are no where promised to the children of believing christians though sincere meerly because of their parents faith . and therefore that which he adds . . that this is to them as they are the children of the people who believe , is false , and when he saith . . and that he never requireth any condition inherent in the infant , that i finde in scripture , yet others conceive an inherent condition required in an infant heb. . . and elsewhere . but he adds , and doth not this plainly tell us , that the parents faith is the condition ? if the parent be a believer , the childe is entered the covenant , the father entering it for him , and his deut. . if the parent be not a believer , the childe is left out : and what other condition can be imagined ? answ. if the scripture had required no inherent condition in the infant , yet it had not followed that the parents faith is the condition of the infants church-membership and justification . for there are other ways , to wit , their election , christs death for them , which are a vouched as sufficient to their justification without the consideration either of any inherent condition in the infant , or the parents faith . nor is it true , that if the parent be a believer the childe is entered the covenant , the father entering it for him and his , and that if the parent be not a believer , the childe is left out . for if it be meant of the covenant of grace it is most false , that if the parent be a believer the childe is entered the covenant . esau was the childe of isaac a believer , ishmael of abraham , yet neither entered into the covenant of grace , neither justified by the parents faith ? if it were so then they were entered into the covenant of grace and justified , and after out●d , which infers falling from grace . not is there any such covenant of visible church-membership which if the parent be a believer the childe i● entered in . nor is there a word deut. . to prove it . there is nothing there set down but a narration of moses his ●enewing the covenant with the children of israel in the land of moab , beside the covenant which he made with them in horeb. it is true it is said v. , , , . they stood all before the lord , the commandors and the men , then the litle ones , wives , strangers , hewers of wood drawers of water , that they might enter into covenant , but that , . the parents peculiarly as parents did enter into covenant for their children appears not : but rather that the entering of the covenant was by the rulers in behalf of the subject , as the league with the gibeonites was by the princes in behalf of israel , whereto they were bound josh. . , . nor is there any consideration of a father entering into covenant for his childe more than of a husbands entering into covenant for his wife , or a masters entering into covenant for his servant , and therefore if this fact were good to prove , if the parent be a believer the childe is entered the covenant , the father entering for him and his : it is good to prove that if the husband , or master be a believer , the wife , and servant are entered into covenant , the husband and master entering it for them and theirs , and so wives , and servants shall be visible church-members , as well as infants of believers , by the faith of husbands and masters . . if the parents faith procure this privilege for the child then either because it is his childe , and then it procures it for the childe while it is his childe though the childe be at years and an infidel , for then it is his childe , or else upon condition the childe agree to it , but then the privilege belongs not to infants , and there is an inherent condition required , to wit , the childes consent besides the parents faith : if it be said that it procures it to the childe while a● infant , but not when it comes to years how can this be true that the parents faith or covenanting should immediately and directly constitute them visible church-members when infants because they are their children , and the covenant is made with them and their children ( as they say ) and yet they not visible church-members while they are children ? surely , the immediate cause continuing , the effect continues , and therefore if the parents faith with the covenant ) make the childe in infancy a visible church-member it must also make it a visible church-member at years though an infidel . . whereas it is supposed by mr. b. that the parents as believers entered the covenant deut. . it rather appears by moses his preface v. , , . that ▪ moses did therefore draw them into this solemn covenant , because they were to that day unbelievers , . it is false , that this entering into covenant did make them church-members . for. . the end of it was to prevent them from backsliding v. . to idolatry , and to prevent gods forsaking them thereupon , v. . . they were church-members before both by gods special separating of the whole nation to be his people , and the solemn covenant at mount horeb , and so were members of that church as part of that nation . . if this entering into covenant made them there church-members visible then it made their posterity also then visible church-members , for with them also was that covenant made , v. ▪ . and so persons should be made visible church-members afore they are born . . if it were true , that that covenanting made them visible , church-members of that church , yet it advantageth no whit to prove infants now visible members of the christian church , which is not national as that was , nor gathered by the chief magistrate as that was , nor injoyned such a national covenant as that , but consisting of particular believers of all nations , gathered by the preaching of the gospel and voluntary personal covenanting for themselves onely testified by their being baptized into christ. if any ask whether a national covenant or a covenant of parents for children be now allowable ? i answer , i deny not but such a national or parental covenant may be allowed , and in some cases covenient , yet i say that it makes not all the subjects and children church-members , nor bindes them without their consent any farther than the matter of the covenant it self bindes . as for that which mr. b. saith , if the parent be not a believer the childe is left out , it is false , if we understand it in respect of church-membership of children at years they may be in the church visible though their parents were unbelievers and left out of the church though believers ; if of justification , it is false both of infants and children of years . and it is utterly untrue that in the christian church children are made visible church-members by parents faith , or left out because of their unbelief . for , . there is no word of scripture that saith so . the three texs acts . . rom. . ▪ . &c. cor. . . are fully discussed already in the first part of this review , and what mr. blake hath replied shall be examined ( god willing ) in that which follows . . no one passage of the new testament doth shew that any infant was reckoned for a visible church-member of the christian church in the new testament , but many shew they were not . . if the infant children of the faithfull had been accounted in the apostles times visible members of the christian church there had been some thing done by the apostles and other holy men to have preserved their right , but no practise of baptism on them , nor any other act can be produced that the apostles or other holy men did to preserve such a right , ergo. . the covenant of the gospel is with particular persons made believers out of all nations , their gathering by preaching the gospel to them , which evidently shew that god intended to take in persons into the christian church upon their own faith , and not in a national way as he did the church of the jews . . the texts ( besides the three forenamed ) brought by the assembly confess . of faith , ch . . art . . to wit , ezek. . , . gen. . . gen. . . and the texts brought by mr. b. ( not here examined ) to wit , matth. . , , . revel . . . heb. . . & . . rom. . . exod . . iosh. . , . deut . , , . psal. . . num. . . dan. . . deut. . , . deut. . , , , . mal. . ▪ are so palpably impertinent to prove the visible church-membership of infants now , that i am in a demur with my self , whether it be fit for me to bestow any more pains in shewing the impertinency of them . . the speeches of protestants of note do make the persons own profession that sign whereby they are judged , and from whence they are termed of the visible church . synops. profess . leydens . disp. . sect . . ecclesia visibilis appellatur , non tam quia homines ipsi visibiles sunt , sed quia ipsorum ordo , professio & communio sensibus exponuntur . dr. prideaux lect. . sect . . visibilis dicitur ecclesia ratione communionis sensibilis membrorum inter se. mr. marshall himself in the sermon at the spi●●le , april . stiled by mr. b. that late excellent , honest solid sermon for unity , pag. . hath these words . secondly , that part of the church which is upon the earth in regard that the very life and being of it and of all the members of it ly in internal grace , which cannot be seen , in that respect the church of christ is called an invisible church ▪ but now as the same church and members doth make a profession of their faith and obedience sensibly to the eys and ears of others in that respect it is called a visible church ; but the visible is not one church and the invisible another church , but meerly the same church under several denominations , the one from their constituting graces , the other from the external profession of them . there was lately a printed sheet brought to my hands intituled , the profession of the church , &c. which is owned by mr. richard baxter in his christian concord , in the preface of which are these words . and because ministers cannot well know who are members of the churches , and who not , and so must be ignorant of the extent of their charges and duties without an expression of their peoples consent . hence i argue , . if ministers cannot know who are members of the churches and who not without an expression of their peoples consent , then they cannot know infants to be members of the churches , who express no consent . . then the parents faith upon which they were baptized without their own consent expressed doth not make them visible church-members , for if it did they might know them by their memory and registers that they were church-members . . then they are not rightly baptized by him without their consent . . then it is not true which mr. b. writeth plain scripture &c. pag. . and do you not see it fulfilled before your eys ? are not bewdley , kederminster ( meaning all the people ●lder and yonger ) &c. and england ▪ ( till of lat● ) as fully christs disciples and so church-members , a● the jews were in covenant with god and so church-members ? which if true mr. b. may know who at kederminster are church-members without their expressed consent , even all the inhabitants , and that his charge is extended to all . . then the gift of visible church-membership is repealed ●ith in the common wealth of israel all the posterity of israel were church-members . . by his new course of distinguishing the professing and subscribing parioshi●ers of kederminster as church-members from the rest as not his church-members , he gathers a church out of a church and separates some disciples from others , and doth himself make a like division in his church ( though not in so justifiable a way as he chargeth so fiercely on me and others . which i conceive to be little less than a retractation of his own tenet about infants vis●●e church-membership , and clearing of his opposites . lastly , by mr. bs. determinations there is no certain way to know a particular infant to be a visible church-member . for in his determinations there is no resolution , nor according to his grounds do i think can be given a certain resolution whether the parent be such a one to whom the covenant is , whether he have that faith which may intitle his childe to visible church-membership , whether the immediate parents engagement be necessary or a remote parents engagement be sufficient , whether the engagement must be open in the face of the congregation , or it be sufficient that it be done privately , when it must be , at baptism , or at some other time , whether it need not be as o●● as he hath children to be admitted visible church-members , whether the baptizer may account him a visible church-member , whose parents are dead , absent , unable to come , or to express their engagement and so baptize him , which with many other doubt● would ●●●a●d the course of ministers and people in their profane infant sprinkling , if they did not with a blinde obedience rest on mr. bs. unproved dictates , but searched after the truth considerately and impartially . but i pass on . . saith mr. b. hence i further argue thus : i● christ were much displeased with his disciples for keeping infants from him , then he took it as a part of their revealed duty that they should not forbid them : but the former is true , therefore the later . whence i further argue : if it were the disciples known or revealed duty not to forbid them to come to christ ▪ then they must needs take it also for a revealed truth that infants in specie ( and not those numerical onely ) should not be forbidden to come , ( for they could not know that those individuals should be admitted but by knowing that infants should be admitted ) but &c. answ. the conclusion of the former argument may be granted , and yet the seque●e of the later argument denied . for they might know it either by some particular sign from christ or some particular instinct of the spirit , that it was their duty to permit those infants to come to christ , and yet not permit any more . but saith mr. b. yea further . . if it were the disciples revealed duty to admit infants to come to christ for this very reason , because of such is the kingdom of heaven , then it was no secret but a revealed truth , that of such was the kingdom of heaven : but the former is true . for christ would not be angry so much with them for not knowing that which was neuer revealed , on for not admitting them when they had no means to know them to have right of admittance . the consequence is evident the ●●for● , and so 〈◊〉 follow 〈◊〉 that if it were then a revealed truth , that of such is the kingdom of heaven ; then they were visible members of the church . for that sort of men that are known to belong to heaven ( though it be not known of the individuals ) do visibly belong to the church ; ( as i think none dare deny . ) answ. . according to their exposition who understand [ of such ] onely those that are like little children in affection , and disposition , and not of those particular little children then brought , much more according to their exposition who by [ of such ] understand these individual infants and no other , they might know those infants were to be admitted , and yet have no knowledg of an universal rule for admitting● other infants at other times . . but be it granted that not onely of those individuals , but also of other infants is the kingdom of heaven , yet i deny they were visible church-members ▪ and for his proof , i dare deny that which he f●ndly thinks ●●n● dare deny , that they that are known to belong to heaven 〈◊〉 visibly belong to the church . abraham and 〈◊〉 and j●●●● are known to belong to heaven , yet i do not conceive do visibly belong to the church . and the same is true of all the spirits of the just ▪ made perfect , of elect infants ●●born , j●●●s unce●led &c. i know none ●●iung to the visible church but such as sensibly have professed faith in christ. am●s : med. th. l. . ● . ● . sect . , , , , 〈◊〉 militant visibilis ●●su sc. vel sensu externo . 〈◊〉 prae●ect . 〈◊〉 eccl. pag. ▪ ecclesia aliquando denominatur , ab●iis q●● 〈◊〉 quaeque ▪ ●n sensum incurrunt piscat ●●●or . ●o● ▪ . . visi●il● appellatur quat●ru●●er●●s h●bet no●●● in oculo● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . mr. b. himself praefest in ▪ morator , sect . . by [ visible ] i m●an th●● which is discernible by the understanding , median●● sensu . therefore that sort of men that are known to belong to heaven do not visibly belong to the church , unless ▪ they are known so b● some sensible expression , yea of their own ▪ which is not true of infants , much less o● the sort of them , or any sort of being , no sort of beings being visible , but onely singula●s . mr. b. goes on thus , . but the chief evidence in the text lieth here ; if because that of such is the kingdom ; therefore it was the disciples sin to keep them back ; them it must needs be the very species of infants that christ means , are of the kingdom , ( and not onely the aged humble ) but therefore it was the disciples sin to keep them back , ( and their duty to admit them , or else christ would not have been much displeased with them ) because that of such is the kingdom ; therefore it must needs be infants themselves that are of the kingdom . the reason of the consequence lieth here ; it would be no sin 〈◊〉 the disciples to keep away from christ those that were 〈◊〉 m●er emble●s of the saved . for else it would have been the disciples sin to have forbidden all the sheep or doves in the countrey to have been brought to christ to l●y han●s on . this is plain and convincing to me . answ. the conclusion i● granted , that it was the infants , if they were infants that were brought to christ themselves , and not onely the aged humble resembled by them , that are of the kingdom mr. b. needed not to have cast away so much pains in ●r●ving it against me , who do in my postscrip● sect ▪ 〈◊〉 say , i stick not to that exposition of not including those infants . but i think mr. b. would prove , that not onely christ said of those infants , but of the very species of infants is the kingdom of god ▪ which speech of his hath in it sundry absurditie● . . he seems to make infants a distinct species from the aged : whereas in ●og●ck [ 〈◊〉 , mankinde ] is species i● a , the lowest k●●●● in the predicament of substance ; and it is a rule in that art ▪ ●ha● se● and age 〈◊〉 v●riant speciem , do not vary the kinde . ▪ when he saith , the very species are of the kingdom , sith he grants , that by the kingdom is meant the invisible church ▪ his words s●●m to 〈◊〉 ▪ that all infants are of the invisible church . for the very species c●●preh●nd all the individuals , and then he must hold● all infants are elect ▪ ( for onely the elect are of the invisible church ) and if after they be reproba●e then election is rev●cable , and the elect may not be saved . but if he mea● it odely of some of that sort , and particularly all the infants of believers neither is that t●●● , sith the contrary is manifest in esau. but if he mean no more than this , that of some elect infants , yea and of others than those particular infants is the kingdom of god , i should not stick to grant it , nor need mr. b. thus trouble himself to prove it , though i think his consequence is not good . for it might be their sin to keep back those infants from christ , if christ did by any sign discover his minde to have them brought , though it were not to declare their title , or any other infants title to the kingdom of heaven , but onely to use them as emblems . nor is mr. bs. reason forcible , that then it might have been their sin to have forbidden sheep and doves to be brought to christ. for it may be granted , that this might have been their sin , if christ had in like manner declared his minde by any sign concerning such sheep , that they should be brought to him . mr. bs. arguing runs upon this supposition , that the apostles might know it was their duty at all times to permit infants to come to christ from a general truth , that of all infants ( at least of believers ) is the kingdom of god , ( which he neither proves , nor can prove ) whereas the apostles fault might be in not heeding some particular thing he had then by some words or other sign made known of those infants then brought , or not considering christs office , and constant practice of doing good to all , specially to infirm and diseased persons , such as those infants might be , and as some conceive were , and accordingly brought to be cured by christ. but mr. b. is not yet come to that he would have . . saith he , those that christ took in his arms , laid his hands on , and blessed , were visible members of his church , and not meer resemblances of such : but some infants christ took in his arms , laid his hands on , and blessed : therefore some infants were members of the visible church , ( and consequently christ hath not repealed the church-membership of infants ) and they were not meer resemblances of such . for would christ have blessed so a sheep or dove ? or are they blessed of christ , and yet not so much as visible members of his church ? sure there are none visibly blest without the visible church . and it was not these onely ; for i have proved , it was the disciples duty to admit others to the like blessing . answ. i do not say , that the infants christ took in his arms were meer resemblances of visible church-members , and therefore mr. b. in seeking to prove it still follows a false sent , proving what is not denied . but the other part of the conclusion is denied by me [ to wit , that some infants were members of the visible church ] and that part of the major , [ those that christ took in his arms , laid his hands on , and blessed , were visible members of his church ] and for his proof , that [ none are visibly blest without the visible church ] i deny it , nor doth he bring any thing to prove it but his own words , sure it is so . but i count it false . for jacob visibly blessed pharaoh , gen. . . and yet pharaoh was not of the visible church . when christ did raise jairus daughter , heal the daughter of the syrophoenician , i conceive they had a visible blessing , and yet were not of the visible church . and if it were the disciples duty to admit others to the like blessing , yet there is neither in the text nor elsewhere a word to prove , it was their duty to admit them to the like blessing by any other than christ himself , and his own laying hands on them . or if it were imagined , that christ intended this should be a rule to the disciples for their conferring a like blessing on infants , yet that it must be a rule to successors , and if to successors , to all ministers to do it , or that they must do it by baptism , and not rather as the bishops did it in confirmation , by laying on of hands , hath not the least shadow of proof ; but rather the contrary is more likely . and accordingly jancerus , & concilium senonense , as chamier tom . . panstr . cath. lib. . cap. . sect . . the composers of the interim , as osiander epit. hist. eccl. cent. . lib. . cap. . pag. . relate , gathered the institution of confirmation from thence . but mr. b. adds , and it is yet more considerable , that all the three former evangelists make full mention of these passages of christ ; and therefore it is evident that they were not taken for small circumstantials , but doctrines of moment for the churches information . they are recorded also in matth. . , , , &c. matth. . , . luke . . luke . , . i desire any tender conscienced christian , that is in doubt whether infants should be admitted members of the visible church , and would fain know what is the pleasure of christ in this thing , to reade over the texts impartially , and considerately , and then bethink himself , whether it be more likely that it will please christ better to bring or solemnly admit infants into the church , or to shut them out ; and whether these words of christ so plain and earnest will not be a better plea at judgment for our admitting infants , than any that ever the anabaptists brought will be to them for refusing them . answ. mr. b. wanting proof fals here to his rhetorick , which elsewhere he falsly chargeth on me as my fault , but is indeed the chief part of his book , and prevails much with the most of readers . but it is the property of childish persons to be affrighted with such mormo's . i grant that the passages of christ were by the evangelists taken not for small circumstantials , but doctrines of moment for the churches information : yet not teaching infants visible church-membership and baptism . what ever christian i be , i have read over the texts impartially , and considerately as i think this and other writings shew , and i do declare in the presence of god that these passages do confirm me in this truth , that it is not the will of christ that infants should be baptized , because he neither baptized , nor appointed these to be baptized , and that the words of christ here are so impertinent that they are more likely to be a plea against infant baptizers who on such weak conjectures go against the plain institution of christ matth. . . mark . . . and the constant use of the apostles and first ages . and i do further declare that on my most serious studies i do resolve notwithstanding the evasions they bring , that the plea they make hence for infant baptism , and that which is alleaged of their being disciples , visible church-members , in the covenant , doth as well tie them to admit them to the lords supper as to baptism , and that in refusing to admit them to baptism we have as good a plea and better at judgment then they have in refusing to admit them to the lords supper . nor is it to me any other than a sad sign either of injudiciousness or slothfulnes in searching after the truth , or prejudice , or adhering to mens sayings out of reverence of their persons , or faction or some such like evil quality both in ministers and people even those of tender consciences that they still retain so gross an abuse as infant baptism is upon such weak reasons as they do , and neglect yea and oppose the baptism of believers so manifestly commanded by christ and practised by his apostles . but i must follow mr. b. but what saith mr. t. against this ? why . . he saith , it was some extraordinary blessing to them that christ intended apol. p. . answ. . it was a discovery of their title to the kingdom of heaven . it was such an extraordinary blessing that included the ordinary . if extraordinary blessing the● much more ordinary . it was such as the disciples should have known that these should be admitted to , or else christ would not have been displeased . answ. it is true i give this reason why i conceive that [ of such ] included those infants as conceiving from the circumstances of the thing that christ intended some extraordinary blessing to them , and declaration concerning them . and in my examen pag. . i say , christs action in this business is proper to him as the great prophet of the church and extraordinary , and therfore yeilds no ground for an ordinary rule of baptizing infants by the ordinary ministery , no more than christs whipping buyers out of the temple , though related by the four evangelists , for an ordinary practise answerable thereto . now this is not denied by mr. b. but he says , it was such an extraordinary blessing as included the ordinary : if extraordinary blessing , then much more ordinary . but . these things are said without proof . . their falshood is shewed , and the rest is answered before . he adds , but mr. t. saith , apol. pag. . that [ the reason of christs anger was their hindring him in his design , not the knowledg they had of their present visible title ; this is but a dream . ] to which i answer , . mr. t. is as bold to speak of christs thoughts without book , and to search the searcher of hearts , as if he were resolved to make christs meaning be what he would have it . . what design was it that christ had in hand ? was it any other than the discovery of his mercy to the species of infants , and to those among others ? and a presenting them as a patern to his followers , and to teach his church humility and renovation , and to leave them an assurance against anabaptists , that it is his pleasure , that infants should not be kept from him . answ. . there was no such boldness in my speech as mr. b. rashly , and like a calumniator chargeth me with , but such as must be granted true , if we conceive christ to have acted as a rational being that propounds an end or design in his actings . . the last of the designs mr. b. mentions , assuring that it is his pleasure that infants should not be kept from him ; meaning by not baptizing them , is his figment . his design i knew without searching christs heart immediately by reading his facts , which shew his ends to be . the blessing those infants . . teaching doctrine concerning such . . shewing himself thereby the great prophet of his church , and bestower of blessings . . saith mr. b. how did the disciples hinder christs design ? not by hindring him immediately , but by rebuking those that brought the infants . . if this were no fault in them , why should christ be displeased , and much displeased at it ? and how could it be their fault to hinder people from bringing infants to christ , if they might not know that they ought to be admitted ? and could they know of christs private intents and designs ? were there but this one consideration hence to be urged , i du●st challenge mr. t. to answer ( as far as modesty would permit a challenge ) that is , if christ had intended onely that humility or docibleness should be commended from these infants as an emblem to his disciples , then it could be none of their fault to forbid bringing of them to christ ; for how could they know what use christ would make of them ? or by what emblem he would teach them ? or when he would do it ? all the creatures in the world may be emblems of some good ; and must they therefore permit the bringing of all to christ ? christ had not told them his design before hand to teach them by these emblems ; and when they knew his minde they desisted . answ. they might know prophets did bless persons even little ones , they knew that matth. . . christ had before familiarly used a little childe , and so was not averse from them , they knew or might know that christ was the great prophet that was to come into the world , that he made it his work to do good , that he did permit all sorts of persons that came for healing or other blessings to come to him , and therefore it was their fault to hinder christ in this design , and to hinder any that came to him for his blessing . i neither say that his design was onely to teach humility by these as an emblem , nor that they knew or might know what use christ would make of these infants . mr. bs. challenge is upon a mistake , as if i affirmed , that christ would have those infants brought onely to teach humility by them , when the very words he cites are to the contrary . i am weary with answering such meer cavils of a man , who if he were not set on wrangling , might by heeding my words answer himself . . saith he , if it had been onely for the present design , then christ would have spoke but of those individual infants , and have said , suffer those now to come : but it appears from the text , . that it was not those individuals more than others that the disciples were offended at , or disliked should be brought ; but the species , or those infants because infants . . and that christ doth not onely speak against their hindring those individuals , but the species , and lays them down a rule and command for the future as well as for the present that they should suffer little children to come to him , and not forbid them . answ. it is in all the evangelists 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which notes the children then brought , and no other , though i deny not but this fact and the reason thereof were a rule for the future as well as for the present , yet not either for the apostles or any successors to lay hands on them , or baptize them ; but for them , if any more infants were thus brought to christs person , that his own hands might be layd on them , that they should permit it . . saith mr. b. and he doth not command this upon the reason of any private design , but because of such is the kingdom of heaven . answ. mr. b. still mistakes me , as if i had said [ private design ] that is a design proper to those infants onely ; whereas my words were [ present design ] which i shew before what it was , and thereby it may be easily conceived i meant such a design as tended to shew his office , readiness to do good , and interest that infants and such as were like them might have to the kingdom of heaven . . saith he , and where mr. t. saith , it was not from any knowledg they had of their present visible title ; i answer , who said it was ? did mr. blake ? no ; but it was a thing the disciples ought to have known , that infants are welcom to christ , and that of such is the kingdom , and therefore because of such is his kingdom , they should not be kept from him ? god will not be much displeased with men for being ignorant of that which they ought not to know . answ. mr. blake in his answer to my letter had said pag. . they ( the infants brought to christ ) had a present visible title such as the apostles ought to have known , and this he gives as the reason why christ was so much displeased with the disciples forbidding them to be brought . to which my words are rightly opposed . nor is any thing put on mr. blake but his own words . if mr. b. will not say that christs anger was from any knowledg the apostles had of the infants present visible title , then he must acknowledg the apostles had no knowledg of the visible church-membership of infants then , or visible title to one church privilege which shews that in christs church no infants were then counted visible church members , else these could not but know it . nor is there any thing in the text that shews that christ was angry with them for not knowing this , nor did this teaching inform them in this , nor did christ admit them as mr. blake saith , to a church privilege , nor if it were true that the blessing were a church privilege common to all church-members , yet infants were as capable of baptism as of it , sith the institution of baptism is otherwise . to me it is a strong presumption that the apostles understood not christs words and deeds as importing church privilege conferred on those infants which did infer a title to baptism , as mr. blake imagins , in that the apostles did not baptize them , which is confessed by some paedobaptists , and appears both in that no such thing is enjoyned them by christ , or related as done by them , and what was done to them is related as done by christ himself who did not baptize john . . and it is said matth. . . when he had put his hands on them he departed thence , and with him his disciples , as appears by the speeches of them upon occasion of the yong mans conference with christ , which presently followed . now if the apostles knew not such baptizability of infants there is no likelihood that christs words or blessing proved such baptizability . if they did know it , and yet did them not right , no doubt christ would have been more angry for their not baptizing them , then for rebuking those that brought them . and whereas mr. b. blesseth christ for his discovery concerning infants as he construes it , i bless god that hath shewed me the frivolousnes of mr. bs. arguings , and i say of such as are led away with such trifling reasons , as the apostles sayd cor . . if any man be ignorant let him be ignorant . as for his observation in the close of the chapter it s like the rest . for christs calling his disciples little children and the apostles so calling christians shews love and tendernes , but not that infants are visible church-members , no more then christs calling the same his lambs and sheep , john . , , &c. shews that sheep and lambs are visible church-members . thus much for answer of that chapter of m. b. sect . xviii . the . chapter of mr. blakes vindic. foed . about christs speech of little children , matth. . . is answered , and my sayings in my postscript vindicated . mr. blake since the publishing of my postscript to my apology in reply to his answer to my letter in his book intituled vindic. foed . c. , . sect . . hath published somewhat that is to be further examined . he saith , they looked upon christ ( as it seems ) as a great prophet highly in favour with god , and such were wont to bless in the name of god , and their blessing was highly prized , and hands were used to be imposed on persons in blessing , gen. . . which i allow . he sets down six positions , the first of which having confirmed , he speaks thus of me . mr. t. brought his reasons against this , to have nipt all in the bud , but those he hath quit , and is brought to confess that he contradicted himself in them , and hath not a word to excuse his false quotation out of mark , concerning scandalizing , onely excusing himself that he delivered himself doubtfully in them . apol. . answ. it is true i brought in my examen p. . piscators reasons in his observ. . on matth. . . to prove the little children matth. . . . not to have been infants , but boyes who were capable of instruction , which it is true i say in my apol p. . i d●d not stick to , nor need i sith at first i said examen pag. . onely , it is doubtfull whether these were infants or no. nor is it truely said by mr. bl. that i excused my self , as if i had been in a fault . for it is true which i alleged , not onely piscator conceiving they were not infants , but estius also annot. ad marc. . . saying it is not certain that they were infants which could neither speak nor g● . which very doubtfulness doth weaken the argument thence for infant baptism , yet i had no reason to stick to that , there being other answers sufficient besides . not is it true which he saith , that i am brought to confess i contradicted my self in the reasons brought , and that they were my reasons , for i expresly said they were piscators reasons , and therefore though piscator should contradict my exposition of matth. . . in those reasons i need not own it , much less do i confess that i contradict my self in them , as mr. blake falsely chargeth me as one that cares not what he prints so he may fully me with a black coal . nor was any false quotation out of mark used by me , i onely brought piscators words & de quali non scandalizando ibidem monet , which if he misapplied to infants , and thereby crossed my interpretation of matth. . , . he opposed himself , though i think neither piscator nor my self , were guilty of any self-contradiction , but mr. bl. of mistake and calumny . mr. bl. saith he knows not that any in print hath maintained it that little children brought to christ were diseased so as to have need of cure . but there is now a book in folio written by mr. samuel . fisher intituled baby baptism meer babism , in which p. : are these words , that he should touch them , and put his hands on them and pray , no question 't was in order to healing , for 't was at a time when he healed many others , if you compare this passage as 't is in matth. . with the first and second verses of the chapter : yea v. . 't is plainly expressed what he did , i. e. he laid his hands upon them and departed thence ; besides luke says , they brought little children to him also that he should touch them : which [ also ] shews that others were brought too , as sick folks commonly were , because virtue went out of him , so that as many as touched him were made perfectly whole . nor do i think mr. blakes reasons sufficient to countervail the other : for though the disciples well knew that it was usual with christ to cure those that laboured under infirmities of all ages , yet they sometimes shewed their unwillingness to have persons trouble christ about diseased persons as matth. . . luke . . and whereas mr. bl. saith , the evangelist would never have concealed this reason and mentioned another , if he mean it of the reason why the disciples rebuked the bringers of the little children , the truth is the evangelists mention no reason at all of the disciples rebuke , if he mean it of the reason why christ would have them brought , such reason stands well with this , that the children were diseased , brought to christ to be cured , and cured by christ. i had said , there is no certainty onely conjecture that they were the children of believers , mr. bl. sets down his third position thus , these were infants of such parents that were in covenant with god , which he proves matth. . . & . , . rom. . . this farther appears by that which they requested for these infants : this mr. t. seems to yeild ; they came ( saith he ) to christ upon the conceit that he was a prophet , and so they might bring children to him to be blessed ; and farther says , if this reason prove any thing , it is that the childrens parents were jews , apol. pag. . which is all that we contend for ; the jews as yet were in covenant . answ. . the reasons of mr. bl. some of them prove rather the bringers to be jews than the parents . . the proving the parents to be jews ( if any do prove it ) is not a proof that they were believers , for there were a great part , if not the greatest part by much of the jews unbelievers , john . , . and what he sayes , the jews as yet were in covenant , if he mean it of all the jews , and of the covenant of grace in christ it is palpably false , contradictory to the apostles determination rom. . , . where it is expresly resolved that all the natural children of abraham and israel were not at any time children of the promise : if he mean it of any other covenant , or promise of god , or of some of the jews , it would nothing avail him for his purpose , though his proposition were granted him . his fourth proposition is thus exprest , these infants themselves were in covenant , and stood in relation to christ , bearing his name , and being of his people ; and were not as heathens in their present state without christ , aliens from the common-wealth of israel , and strangers from the covenant of promise . this is evident by their free admission by christ , and the reason by him given . when this was prest upon mr. t. in solemn disputation , he took time to consider , and after more than two years in his examen , we have an answer which shame will not suffer him to own . but in his apology doth disclaim , yet not convinced by mr. m. my self , or any other : it is enough with me , if the truth is confest ; if the truth may have the honor , i am satisfied . answ. were i nor sufficiently acquainted with mr. bls. charges without cause , i should be jealous of my self that there is some thing done by me which might occasion this imputation . what was prest on me in the disputation in london , anno . and what time or for what reason i took time to answer after . years elapsed , i cannot trust in my memory to inform me . what answer i gave in my examen which in my apology i disclaim , and shame will not now suffer me to own , concerning this proposition of mr. bl. and its proof , it is such a riddle to me that i cannot yet tell how to understand it , except i have mr. bls. heifer to plough with . sure i am , this kinde of crimination which mr. bl. useth , is very unsuitable to a clear and solid disputant thus by dark flirts , and quips to abuse me ; but i think it best to slight his charge , presuming intelligent men will be little moved with it . as for his position , the terms being ambiguous , and especially the term [ in covenant ] being used ( as i often complain ) in such variety of senses or rather sometimes non-sense by paedobaptists , that it seems to be used by them to elude rather than to inform , it may be either granted or denied as the terms are explained , and if this did occasion me to take time to answer it i did therein prudently , and if after two or ten years my answers be various they are so upon due considerations ; for present i grant , those infants ( if they were infants ) mentioned matth. . . were in the covenant of saving grace , stood in relation to christ as chosen in him , and in that respect bare his name as his bre●heren , were of his invisible people , not as heathens in their present state without christ being given to him , nor aliens from the common-wealth of the israel of god the invisible church of the elect , nor strangers from the covenant of promise , that is , the covenant of promise commensurate with election of grace , and this i grant to be evident of those particular persons if not by their free admission to christ , yet by the reason by him given , it being supposed that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of such ] is meant of them as well as of those that were like them in humility . but if the position be understood of being in covenant either by their own act of cove●anting , or that which is called by paedobaptists in their non-sense or proper gibberish the outward covenant , or that it be meant that they stood in relation to christ as visible members of the christian church in their present state while they were infants , i deny it to be true , or that it is evident by their free admission by christ , and the reason by him given . mr. bls. fifth position is , they were admitted upon a common right , equally belonging to all infants of covenanting parents , and not by virtue of any extraordinary privilege , peculiar to them , and not common to other . this is plain , saith he , . by the general admission which he gives to infants on this occasion ; suffer little children come to me , and ( as mr. t. more than once observes ) extraordinarium non facit regulam communem , here is a general rule , all have admission , and therefore there is nothing extraordinary . . it was such a right that the disciples of christ ought to have understood , as plainly appears by christs sore displeasure conceived against them , for forbidding their admission to him , and that must be a known right , and not secret . answ. . there is not a word in the text to prove that they were admitted upon any right to their admission as due to them , and which might be claimed for them , but they were admitted out of grace . . there is nothing in the text to prove they were the children of covenanting parents , or that they were admitted out of any respect at all to their parents state , whatever it were . as for mr. bls. reasons . to the . i say , the words are a command onely for those little children , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , suffer the little children , to wit them brought to come to me ; nor doth it appear by any after instance of christ or his apostles that this was understood as a general rule , that all should have admission . . were it granted that this rule of christ did reach to others besides those then brought , yet there is nothing in the text to prove this rule of admission to be onely of infants of covenanting parents or to these or any other by reason of right from their covenanting parents . yea rather if any right be intimated it is the personal right of the infants , for of such is the kingdom of god. . it is true , the disciples of christ ought to have understood they were to be admitted , but that this was the reason why they ought to know they were to be admitted because of their known right is imagined but not proved . and how or for what reasons they might know they were to be admitted is shewed above in answer to mr. b. mr. bl. adds , mr. t. indeed says , they were not admitted out of any known right common to others , but a perculiar privilege as being elected , for which he quotes piscator ; when as he hath heard ( and replies nothing ) that piscator syllogistically concludes the contrary . answ. i said not , they were admitted out of a peculiar privilege as being elected , nor for this did i quote piscator , and therefore in my animadversions in my postscript i made no reply to mr. bl. in this thing . my words in my examen pag. , . were these . . let it be granted they were the infants of believers and that it is said , of these is the kingdom of god , it may be as piscator observes referred not to their present estate , as if for the present they were in the kingdom of god that is believers and justified ; but that they were elect persons , and so in time of them should be the kingdom of god : in which i do not at all assign the reason why the little children were to be admitted to come to christ , nor do i quote piscator for it , and therefore mr. bl. mis●ecites my words , but shew how it might be true that of those infants was the kingdom of god , yet in their present estate they neither believers nor justified . against which piscator is so far from concluding syllogistically ( as mr. bl. says ) that disputing against the lutherans affirming infants to be believers because of christs words , matth. . . in his observe . out of that v. he sayth thus , deinde etiamsi ponatur , sermonem hic de infantibus esse : tamen non potest hinc certò concludi illos praeditos esse ●ide . et●nim infantium potest esse regnum coe●orum , etiamsi non credant , dummodo sint electi : which are the effect of my words . and for the rest that follows in mr. bl. about christs design , and the disciples duty to know it , and their sin in being ignorant of it : there is answer before in the answer to mr. b. nor is there a word in my writing that tends to this , that either they knew or were bound to know the election of those infants , or that christ was angry with them for not knowing it : i have often said , it was either because they heeded not some particular intimation of his minde concerning those infants , or some general truth concerning christs office , and his readiness to do good to all sorts of persons , as there was opportunity offered , from which he ought not to be hindered by them . i do not confess , as mr. bl. sayth of me , that elect infants might be baptized , were they known : but that elect infants being actual believers , if they were known might be baptized , and therefore i need not fear christs displeasure for not admitting elect infants to baptism , no not though they were known to be elect , except they were known to be believers , much less for not admitting to baptism those that are neither known to be elect nor believers : but mr. bl. hath just cause to fear the displeasure of christ for admitting to baptism those that are neither known to be elect , nor believers , but infants of parents who are manifestly children of the devil , covenant-breakers , &c. according to his doctrine in opposition to mr. firmin vindic. foed . cap. . which is a higher degree of profanation of the ordinance of baptism , than many paedobaptists fall into . mr. bls. sixth position is , they are here admitted by our saviour christ to a church-privilege . this appears numb . . , , &c. to the end of the chapter . the israel of god are under the blessing , little ones are ordered to be received to this blessing , little ones therefore are of his israel , deut. . . these are the blessed of the lord upon this account , jer. . . children are within this number , they are the inheritage of the lord , psal. . . and consequently admitted by our saviour christ to this privilege of a blessing . answ. . mr. bls. position is ambiguous , . it is uncertain whether he mean it of christs laying on hands , or his prayer also , and blessing with it , which is the church-privilege . . whether he make it a privilege of the visible or invisible church . ▪ whether he will have these to be a constant church-privilege . . to whom he will have it a church-privilege . . by whom it is to be done since christs ascension , whether by apostles onely , or bishops , or presbyters . all the proof he brings for blessing , as a church-privilege , is the prayer of aaron and his sons , for the whole congregation of the children of israel , which how it proves christs laying on of hands , and praying or blessing of a few little children , ( when christ was neither aaron nor any of his s●●s ) to be a church-privilege , such as was aaron and his sons blessing , which belonged to the levitical priesthood , i see no● . mr. bls. arguing is like as if his wits went a wool-gathering . this , saith he , appears numb . . , , &c. what is that which he saith appears ? it should be his sixth position , they are here admitted by our saviour christ to a church-privilege : but his conclusion is , little ones therefore are of his israel ; and this is proved by a syllogism that is either faulty in that there are four terms , or else it is in the second figure of all affirmatives . if it be said that mr. bl. infers from that and the rest his position , neither is that true : for his conclusion is this , and consequently admitted by our saviour christ to this privilege of a blessing ; which though not denied by me , yet is neither his sixth position , nor any thing in the texts he brings proves it , which are all impertinently alleged by him , and the last especially , which he seems to understand , as if they were said to be the heritage of the lord , as if they were the lords peculiar possession , whereas the meaning is psalm . . that children are such a blessing to parents , that they are an heritage given by the lord , as ainsworth rightly expounds it ; and so an house-privilege rather than a church-privilege is there meant , as the words following shew . mr. bl. had said , pag. . of his answer to my letter , there is no direct precedent for baptism in particular , but for church-privileges of which infants are capable , on which i inferred , if [ but ] be adversative , ( which must be granted if mr. bl. speaks sense ) then mr. bl. grants that infants are capable of church-privileges , not of baptism . to this mr. bl. replies , . that i make a great triumph of his speech . . that i leave out that which would fully explain his meaning . . that his meaning is , this act of christ is no direct precept for baptism , but of church-priledges in general . . if i can make it good that baptism is no church-privilege i have wrested this argument out of his hand , and that this text as to the argument fals , otherwise it is of force and an undeniable consequence . answ. . i said truly , that grant which mr. bls. words ( if he understand himself ) implies , overthrows all his dispute , and is a triumph ( if it be to be so called ) on a victory . . i left out nothing which being put in would have hindered the inference i make : but mr. bl. as if he were ashamed of his own words , leaves out in his explication the words [ of which infants are capable ] from whence i made my inference . . his own explication makes the matter worse . for , . if this act of christ be a direct precept of church-privileges in general , then it is of baptism in particular , being a church-privilege , that which is said of the genus being true ( as logicians say ) of the species , quicquid praedicatur de genere praedicatur de specie . whence it follows mr. bl. speaks in consistencies . . it follows also , that if it be a direct precept for to admit infants to church-privileges in general , then it is to admit them to the lords supper , to ordination , for these are church-privileges . if he mean no more than this , that they are to be admitted to prayer for them , and that is the church-privilege he means , i should grant it , and accordingly when desired i do both publish the names , days of infants birth , and pray for them . . what he would gather from hence , by necessary consequence i wrest out of his hands , i think easily , without gratifying socinians , antibaptists , ( who if they triumph over antipaedobaptists , and beat them down with their own weapons in the parts w●●re mr. bl. lives , the more shame for them , who betray by their unskilfulness so good a cause ) with this , that baptism is no church-privilege . his arguments are thus formed , cap. . sect . . they which are admitted to church-privileges have right to baptism , the leading ▪ privilege ; but infants are admitted to church-privileges , mark . . matth. . . luke . . infants therefore have right to baptism . to which i answer , if he mean by [ church-privileges ] any other than prayer , and the laying of hands on them by christ ; i deny the minor ; if he meant it of them i deny the major . and whereas he makes baptism the leading church-privilege , i grant it is so in order to the lords supper , yet to be among the catechized , commended to god in prayer , may be antecedent church-privileges to baptism . his other argument is this , the children of the kingdom , that with others make up the kingdom of god , have right to baptism ; but infants are the children of the kingdom that with others make up the kingdom of god , mark . . matth. . . luke . . infants therefore have right to baptism . to which i answer . the phrase [ children of the kingdom ] i finde diversly used , matth. . it is appropriated to the jews , and it is spoken of them which shall be cast out into utter darkness . but matth. . . it is meant of the elect , who shall be saved . in the former sense , the major is manifestly false , and the minor can be onely true of jews infants : in the later sense the major proposition is true of children of the kingdom who are visibly such by their profession of faith in christ ; and the minor is false ; if it be meant of such as are invisibly children of the kingdom , the major is denied , and the minor is granted . mr. bl. adds somewhat more about the meaning of the words of christ , [ of such is the kingdom of heaven ] and first he saith , the particle [ such ] cannot here have reference to their qualification , that those that were qualified as these ( in humility and meekness ) had their interest ; so are sheep and doves as well as infants , not proud nor revengefull . answ. this reason is not of force to prove that [ such ] cannot here have reference to the qualification of meekness and humility . for being so expounded [ such ] notes others than the infants , to wit , men that are humble and meek positively , as infants are negatively , and this cannot be sayd of doves or sheep , yet infants may be included as beza doth annot : in matth. . . talium 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , id est , horum & similium , ut supra . . which is plainly proved by our lord christs own words mark . . where [ of such v. . ] is [ whosoever receiveth the kingdom of god as a little childe v. . ] and so it is meant matth. . . as i have proved above . nor is mr. bls. reasoning of force , that which the disciples took to be an impediment of force to hinder infants , and a just ground of those that brought them , is that which christ understands in this reproof of the disciples and admission of their infants ▪ but it was their want of growth , their littleness , which the disciples took to be a just impedinent , and which occasioned their reproof , ergo. for the conclusion may be granted , yet this proves not that by [ of such ] is meant in respect of quantity onely , not of quality , but onely that in the words before [ suffer little children to come to me ] quantity is meant not quality , for in those words onely is the reproof of the disciples , and christs admission of infants . the other are a reason of his command , which is good if by [ such ] be meant likeness in quality as well as agreement in quantity . and for mr. bls. paraphrase , it is but his own conceit , that the little children had no need of cure , or that the disciples rebuke was after his model . but enough of this before . mr. bl. excepts against me for saying , the kingdom of heaven is meant of the kingdom of glory , and that on this hinge the answer to the whole argument turns . he saith , i had six exceptions against the orthodox interpretation of this scripture in my examen , being hunted out of all the rest i think to finde s●m sh●lter there . but this is his figment , for though i of mine own accord expressed some onely as doubtfull , and let pass others for more ample conviction of the invalidity of the vain arguing , called falsely orthodox interpretation of this text by paed baptists , yet i did not so much as relinquish one of the exceptions , much less have been hunted from them , as mr. bl. after his pedant que fashion talks . but in opposition to me he first saith , that all hangs not on this , appears , in that our saviour had said enough in his order for admission of these infants on which we can build our conclusion . and then brings his argument , which being answered before there is no need of any more reply to this . yet i add , that of the argument drawn by mr. bl. pag. . of his answer to my letter none that are int●ressed in the church of christ which is his kingdom may be denied an admission to it by baptism , but infants have their interests in the church of christ which is his kingdom , and therefore may not be denied admission by baptism ; the hinge did turn on this point , that by the kingdom of heaven is meant the visible church , into which he would have infants admitted by baptism ; and my speech is true of that argument . mr. blake adds , secondly , for his reasons there is not force in them , . saith he , the kingdom of god must be understood mark . . as it is v. . and luke . . as v. . and matth. . . as it is in both those ; this i prove , because our saviour from their estate infers a likeness to them in others for the same estate , apol. pag. . this argument howsoever it carries more colour than usually is fou●d in mr. t. his reason , yet it is not conclusive . it may be taken more largely in christs argumentation , and in a more restrained sense in his words of instruction and application , as in a place much parallel i shall shew , cor. , . there we have the apostles reproof , v. . and his reason , v. ▪ as in the evangelists we have christs assertion confirming his reproof , v. and his application , v. . now [ saint ] in the apostles reproof is taken more largely than it is taken in his reason . a visible saint is meant in the first place , a real and glorified saint in the second ; visible saints may judg in small matters , for real saints in glory shall judg the world , shall judg angels ; and so it may be here , infants have their present title to the visible kingdom ; and men qualified as infants , shall onely enter the kingdom of glory . answ. i see mr. bl. so pertinacious in what he hath said in this argument , that he is cedere nescius , he knows not how to yeild to any thing against his dictates , though it be never so plain . he denies not mark . . luke . . must be understood of the kingdom of glory for the reason given by me in my postscript the proposition being false , being understood of the visible church ; many proud persons entering therein , as simon magus , diotrephes , &c. but denies it to be conclusive , and therefore must deny the major . but he answers nothing to the proof of it , because our saviour from their estate infers a likeness to them in others for the same estate . whence the argument ariseth . the same estate is meant mark . . which is mean v. . this is proved from the inference of christ which is , as of little children is the kingdom of god , so whosoever doth not receive the kingdom of god as a little childe shall not enter into [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it ] or the same estate , the relative particle plainly notes it to be the same . but the estate mark . . is meant of the kingdom of glory , which is proved , because otherwise the proposition were false : nor is it denied by mr. bl. therefore the argument is most plainly conclusive . mr. bls. answer is either upon a wilfull or heedeless mistake of my argument as if it were onely from the identity of the words in both verses , whereas it was taken from the sameness of estate gathered by the force of our saviours whether application of v. . as mr. bl. terms it , or inference from what he had said v. . and the relative [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it . ] i deny not that it is frequent according to the figure in rhetorick termed antanaclasis to use terms sometimes in the same verse elegantly in a different sense : but it cannot be so here for the reasons given . and yet mr. bls. instance cor. . , . is not right : for cor. ▪ . the term [ saint ] doth not note a glorified saint . for the sense is this , know ye not these now despised saints shall hereafter judg the world , and so though it be true that then they shall be glorified , yet the term [ saints ] is attributed to them according to their present estate of debasement , in which the very emphasis is put . besides if it had been so that in the one v. it noted a visible saint here , and in the other a glorified saint hereafter , yet the same persons were meant in both verses : whereas if mark . . were meant the visible church , who are a number of persons , and v. . were meant an estate of glory , there would be a greater difference than in cor. . , . and therefore mr. bl. doth not rightly say , the one place is much parallel to the other . mr. bl. goes on . his second reason , that christ directs his speech to the disciples already in the visible church , and therefore speaks not of the church visible , i know not how to make up into a reason ; if i understood it , i would either yeild or answer it . answ. the reason is thus formed . the same is meant mark . . which is meant v. . as is before proved . but by [ the kingdom of god ] v. . is not meant the visible church , ergo , neither v. . the minor is thus proved . by [ the kingdom of god ] is meant that estate into which the apostles had not but were thereafter to enter into . for the speech is meant of them as well as others , and directed to them , verily i say to you , and so where the same thing is sayd matth. . . it is sayd to and of them , except ye be converted and become as little children ye shall not enter into the kingdom of the heavens . but the estate the apostles were to enter into was not the visible church , for that they had entered into already , but the kingdom of glory . therefore by [ the kingdom of god mark . . ] is meant the kingdom of glory . mr. bl. adds , the third reason , that the speech mark . . luke . . is like matth. . , ▪ but there it is meant of the kingdom of glory ; ergo , so here , is answered already . if mark . . luke . . be like matth. . , . yet mark . . luke . . which we have in question is unlike matth. . ▪ . answ. . if mark . . be like matth. . , . then also mark . . is in like manner understood the kingdom of heaven , as matth. . , . for it is understood of the same mark . , . as is proved before . . mr. b. conceived them like by putting them together in the chapter before answered , and the new annot. and diodati , whose testimonies are alleged in my postscript . pag. . mr. bl. adds , thirdly , were it granted him , that the kingdom of glory must be understood both in christs reason and application , yet he is nothing holpen . infants have right to the church visible militant , bcause they are in a capacity of entrance into the church triumphant , acts ▪ . the lord added to the church daily such as should be saved ; not necessarily saved , but now ( having entered covenant with god ) they were in a capacity , and therefore added as visible church-members . infants standing in this capacity ought to have admission likewise . answ. it helps me much to answer the arguments drawn from matth. . . for infants visible church-membership , if by the [ kingdom of heaven ] be not meant the visible church , for then it is not there affirmed , that infants are visible church-members . nor doth mr. bls. reserve regain the loss , to prove it by consequence , for his speech is not true , infants have right ( meaning of admission ) to the visible church , because they are in a capacity of entrance into the church triumphant . nor is it proved acts . . where mr. bl. perverts the meaning of the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is in english [ the saved ] that is either [ the saved from that crooked generation v. . by their effectual calling as tim. . . tit. . . ] or by an enallage of tense [ such as should be saved ] and that certainly or necessarily ] as cor. . . not as mr. bl. they were in a capacity to be saved , ( for so were those that were not called ) and therefore added as visible church-members . nor is mr. bls. proposition gathered thence : for neither is there any thing in the words to prove that then all were added to the church which should be saved , much less which were in a capacity to be saved , or on the contrary that all that were added to the church should be saved : much less that their right to be added to the church was from this , that they should be saved ; it is said , the lord added to the church such as should be saved , it is not said the apostles added them to the church because they were to be saved , yea v. . it is said , that even of those that were to be saved , they gladly received the word ; and then were baptized and added . so that if the text be rightly looked into there is nothing to be gathered thence of the persons right to be added to the church , or the ministers duty to add to the church by baptism , persons meerly upon this consideration , that they shall be saved , but onely that it is the course of gods providence to add to his church such as shall be saved . i yet add that if mr. bls. proposition were granted him , they have a right to the church-visible militant who shall be of the church triumphant , yet this right cannot be claimed but by those who are elect , and therefore from these scriptures so expounded matth. . . acts . . it cannot be proved that any other than elect infants are to be baptized and to be added to the church , not the natural children of true believers , who are many of them non elect ; nor can a minister gather thence , he ought to baptize any of them till he know they are elect , and shall be saved , and therefore they rashly and profanely baptize from hence them , that they have no knowledg of , that of them is the kingdom of glory and that they shall be saved . sect . xix . animadversions on mr. cobbets just vindic. part . . cap. . and the arguings of dr. homes , mr. bailee , mr. fuller , mr. sidenham , from the words and actions of christ to little ones are answered . having answered mr. b. mr. bl. my two eager antagonists i shall add animadversions on mr. thomas cobbet his just vindic. part . . ch . . sect . . . he says without proof that they that brought the infants mentioned luke . . were pious minded parents . . he denies [ of such is the kingdom of god ] to be meant of the kingdom of glory , the contrary whereof is proved in the next section before against mr. blake . . he supposeth , that these words [ suffer little children to come to me ] being granted to contain a rule of suffering little ones of that sort such as those are to come to him and the words [ of such is the kingdom of god ] being expounded of the invisible church it must be conceived that christ must direct them to suffer members of the invisible church to come to him , and then that they may be known . but this is his mistake ; they that expound thus the words [ suffer these little children and other little children in age if any hereafter be brought to my person to be touched , to come to me , and forbid them not as ye have don these . for however they are persons that are not fit to be my hearers ; yet of these now brought and of some other infants which may be brought , and men of years like them in quality is the kingdom of god , the invisible church or the kingdom of glory belongs to them ] may avouch this exposition without supposing their election must come under the cognizance of men , nor need they say that onely such who were elected , were , by this rule so exp●unded to be permitted , to come to christ. . that christ spake of those infants not as an extraordinary inspired prophet is said without proof ; not is it likely , sit● such blessings were never given but by extraordinary inspiration , and christ appoints not the admitting of little children to any , no not to his apostles , but himself . . that he delivered an ordinary rule of ordinary practise and use afterwards is said without proof ; nor is it likely , sith we reade no more of that practise by any of the apostles , nor any rule concerning it after this one act of christ sect. . h● denies that [ of such is the kingdom of heaven might be spoken in reference to the future , that is that they were elect ones , and should in time be of gods kingdom , that is believers , or that they were such as god would bless . for christs words are not , of such may , will or shall be the kingdom of god , nor that they were of his kingdom , because such as he would bless : but rather that they should not be hindered from being blessed of him , because of such is the kingdom of god. to which i answer : that by [ the kingdom of heaven mat. . . and the kingdom of god mark . ▪ ▪ luke ▪ , . ] must needs be meant the kingdom of glory is proved before , & then the sense can be no other than of such is the kingdom of heaven , that is the kingdom of glory belongs to such , as mat. . , . and as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , doth of ▪ signifie as mark . , &c. and then it must needs be an enallage of tense , as mat. ▪ . as pisc. sch . on mat. . . est pro futurus est enallage temporis , or as pisc. sch . on matth. . . ipsis destinatum est & dabitur , and this is all one as to say they are elect , which is piscators term in his observation on matth. . . as i shewed above in answer to mr. blake , and thus [ of such is the kingdom of god ] refers to the present estate as elect , to their future as possessours of glory hereafter . and so to mr. cobbets objection i answer , matth. . . it is not said , theirs shall be the kingdom of heaven , but [ is ] and yet it must be understood of present title and future possession , so here . and for his exception at my words , that the reason may be given why these infants did belong to gods kingdom , because they were such as christ would bless , is not avoided by saying , they were blessed , because of gods kingdom . for both ways the reason is good , they should not be hindered from blessing , because theirs was the kingdom of heaven the end of blessing , or they should not be hindered from blessing because he intended to bless them , and therefore theirs was the kingdom of heaven . either way that i intended to prove examen pag. . is evinced , that the reason why theirs was the kingdom of heaven is not from their parents faith ( which should have been if it were meant , as paedobaptists would , of interest in the visible church ) but gods election or christs blessing . i have often said , that if christs minde had been that infants should be baptized , he would have commanded these little ones to have been baptized for an example . to this mr. cobbet answers , that according to our principles they were elect , heirs of the kingdom of glory : now why should not or were not these infants at least baptized ? answ. because though elect , yet were not believers or disciples by profession . but you would allow , saith he , such to be baptized if of grown years . answ. no , untill they were believers or disciples , not barely because elect and heirs of glory . but you say , saith he , that if by extraordinary revelation you knew an infant to be sanctified , you would baptize it , because the extraordinary revelation would authorize it , and the words of peter , acts . . and the institution , matth. . . and then it would follow , . that persons may be disciples without being outwardly taught . . it is agreeable to the rule that persons without personal profession of faith should be baptized . albeit extraordinary things done besides rule cross not ordinary rule ; yet neither extraordinarily nor ordinarily is any thing to be done , which is in it self contrary to rule . . it was the minde of christ they should be baptized , as that they should be instructed , though it be not expressed . answ. . it is true i grant in my examen , p. , , . upon the grounds mentioned , that an infant regenerated , united to christ , sanctified by the spirit upon extraordinary revelation of this might be baptized ; and the like is said by mr. blackwood apostolical bapt. p. . and for those that have the thing signified let them make it appear to any church of christ , and they cannot deny their baptism . but yet it follows not that these infants might be baptized which are mentioned matth. . . for though their election be mentioned , yet not their regeneration and sanctification . now praedestinatio nil ponit in praedestinato , and therefore it makes not disciples or believers at present , but assures it as future : but we are to baptize actual disciples and believers , not future . but however , saith he , they may be disciples who are are not outwardly taught . answ. who denies it ? yet they must be learners of christ in their own persons . but then , saith he , a person may be baptized without personal profession . answ. it is granted , when god supplies the absence of it by his revelation otherwise : nor is this contrary to the rule , sith that is , to baptise known disciples , who are ordinarily known by their personal profession , though in this case gods extraordinary act supplies that want . yet mr. cobbets saying is not right , that neither extraordinarily nor ordinarily is any thing to be done , which is in it self contrary to rule . for abrahams killing his son was in it self contrary to rule , yet upon extraordinary command it was to be done . and for the third , though it might be conceived christs minde , that the children should be instructed , though it be not mentioned , luke . , . because it was a duty of perpetual equity by virtue of the moral law : yet baptising infants being a meer positive rite , that hath no reason or warrant but institution , is not to be conceived christs minde , without some declaration , which he neither then when he had so fit opportunity , nor at any time else expressed . there are some more things in mr. cobbet censurable , as that he makes the infants paterns as well of receiving the kingdom at least externally , as of the affection and disposition with which it is to be received ; whereas , ● . the words matth. . ● . do plainly make them paterns onely of humility , and such good dispositions as are in children fit to be imitated . . in mr. cobbets sense the words of christ would be false , [ whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little childe externally by an initial seal or some other visible sign , as laying on hands , &c. shall not enter therein . ] for then that popish doctrine , or rather more rigid than popish must be maintained , that no unbaptized martyr or other shall enter into the kingdom of heaven . and in like manner it is gratis dictum , without proof sayd [ of such like infants , like them in covenant , and church interest in god is his kingdom , ] there being not a word in the text that leads to this paraphrase , and the plain meaning is before expressed . that which mr. cobbet sayth in answer to the reason of piscator , why they were not infants because christ called them ; i conceive is not an answer . for what he sayth , that things ascribed to the children are rather to be understood of parents , and he instanceth in levi's paying tyths in abraham , heb. . is not right . for , . that which is sayd of levi is to be understood of levi , not of abraham ; for it were neither good sense nor to his purpose , to say , abraham payd tyths in abraham . . if things done by a parent and related by the holy ghost as mysterious passages are imputed to the children , yet it is absurd to understand in an historical narration of facts that to be meant as spoken to the parents , which was spoken to the children . other things i let pass , which oppose not my dispute but others : and what things he speaks in answer to my objections , and what concerns the answering the imaginary absurdities arising from our doctrine in that chapter , i refer to another place . this is sufficient in answer to what he sayth in opposition to me about that passage luke . , . dr. homes in his animad . on my exercit. pag. , . argues thus , to whom indefinitely as such , heaven and the blessing of and for heaven belongs , to them as such the seal of converance , and confirmation of heaven and that blessing belongs . for if the land be mine the deeds and seals of conveyance are mine . but heaven and the blessing of and for heaven belongs indefinitely to such little children , more , whiles little children ; so the text here expresly . to them belong , or ( which is all one ) of such is the kingdom of heaven , and he took them in his arms and blessed them . therefore to little children indefinitely belongs the seal of conveyance or confirmation of heaven , and the blessing of heaven , which in the new testament , according to the time christ spake , is baptism . answ. neither is it true , that baptism is the seal of conveyance of heaven , and the blessing for it , that i finde in scripture , but the spirit , ephos. . . ephes. . . cor. . . nor is it true , that heaven and the blessing of heaven belong to little children indefinitely as such , that is as little children . for then it should belong to all little children , nor to them as children of believing parents , for it should belong to all children of believing parents , but as they are elect . and to these i grant baptism belongs when they are called , and believe , not before ; as a conveyance may be made to a childe , yet he is not to have it in his hands till he come to understand it , and is fit to make use of it . so that the major may be denied if [ the belonging of the seal ] be meant in respect of present use or possession . and the minor is to be denied , if [ as such ] be meant [ as little children , or children of believers ] and the inference on the conclusion is denied , the seal belongs to them , ergo , baptism . other arguments of dr. homes are answered in my apology pag. . though briefly yet sufficiently . nor hath mr. geree in his v●ndiciae vindiciarum ch . . brought any thing worth rejoyning in reply to my answer to his sixth argument in my apology pag. , . it is false which he saith , in admitting to ordinances we proceed not upon judgment of certainty but charity , nor is a judgment of charity grounded upon hope of what a person may be any rule to us in admitting to baptism , for if so , then hope of a profane persons amendment were enough to baptize him . mr. baille●'s reasoning in his anabaptism pag. . [ since imposition of hands a seal of christs grace and blessing , and of the kingdom of heaven belonged to infants ; that therefore baptism a seal of that same kinde , when once the lord had solemnely at his ascension appointed it to be the ordinary seal of initiation into his church ought not to be denied to them ] is but dictates . . he says , baptism is a seal of the same kinde with christs laying on hands , which he saith without proof , nor is it true . for. . christs laying on hands was an act extraordinary done by christ himself as the great prophet , but baptism was an act of ordinary ministration not done by christ himself but his disciples , john . , . . baptism was the duty of the baptized , acts . . not onely the baptizers , but not so laying on hands by christ. . if baptism be a seal of the same kinde with laying on of hands , then laying on hands is a seal , and a sacrament of the same kind with baptism , which is counted a point of popery . . to shift off the objection , that christ appointed not those infants to be baptized , he allegeth that christ did after solemnly appoint it at his ascension , and since then it ought to be done : which intimates that infants were not to be baptized before , but after the ascension . but , . the appointment and practise of baptism was before , if not as solemn , and the same use and order of it , and therefore this reason is of no force why others should be baptized after , more than these before the ascension . . it will follow that jews infants were not to be baptized till after the ascension of christ , which overthrows his and other paedobaptists argument about the seal and covenant , which if of any validity , prove infant baptism as well before the ascension as after . . it is false , that christ at his ascension appointed infant baptism any more than before , the commission of christ and the apostles practise shew the contrary . therefore i deny his argment in the words set down as being without proof or shew of it . mr. thomas fuller in his infants advocate ch . hath these words st. john addeth ch . . . and there are also many other things which jesus did which are not written , amongst which for ought appears to the contrary , the baptizing of these infants might be one of them ; wherein he runs to the popish plea for their unwritten traditions , and forgets that besides what i have alleged before to shew those infants were not baptized , there appears something to the contrary out of john . , . where it is said , that jesus baptized not , but his disciples , and therefore the baptizing of those infants could not be one of the things which jesus did though not written john . . his argument , they were capable of a blessing , therefore of baptism ; hath been often denied and answered before . there came to my hands also the exercitation of mr. cuthbert sidenham , in which ch . . he terms antipaedobaptism denying infants with scorn a little water , and after , this text matth. . , . if there were no more , will fly in the consciences one day of the most confident contemners of infants , and their baptism . to which i say , it shews too much youthfull rashness u●fi● for a teacher of a church either to call antipaedobaptists contemners of infants , and their baptism , and their denying infants baptism ( which they do for ought he knows out of tender conscience of not profaning christs ordinance ) an act , of scorn , and to speak of the texts flying in their consciences , who know that he had more reason to expect the flying of this text in his conscience , who in this ( as he doth in the rest of his pamphlet ) makes the objection against his urging it for infant baptism so as that he might put it off with a slight answer , for whereas antipaedobaptists object , if christ hinted their right to baptism , why did he neither baptze them , nor appoint them to be baptized by his apostles ? mr. sidenham leaves out the later part of the objection , and answers . . he baptizeth none . . he did that which was an ordinance usually , in those primitive times , administred after baptism and equal to it in dignity , and so we may argue from this to baptism either inclusively or à majori from the greater , he did such acts to them as are equivalent if not supereminent . but doth mr. sidenham indeed think such petty arguings , which he knows not how to form in a logick way , but in pathetick rhetorick , likely to ●errify our consciences so much , when he himself dares not positively assert , that the laying on of christs hands did include and presuppose baptism , yea he acknowledgeth it to have been extraordinary ; and for his way of proving à majori , he either is ignorant in logick or else might understand , that an argument à majori is not thus ; there is conferred on such a one a greater thing , therefore the less ; christs blessing therefore right to baptism ; for then the argument were good , christ blessed the infants which is the greater , therefore he gave them the lords supper , or made them apostles , or gave them the gift of tongues , which are the less . but an argument à majori is à magis probabili , and so it is not more probable that christ would have them baptized , than that he would bless them , sith they were not meet subjects of the one as of the other . there is nothing else in that chapter but what hath answer before , this is enough to abate the insolency of this scribler . sect . xx. the practice of infant-baptism is not proved acts . . by baptizing a houshold against mr. m. dr. homes , mr. bailee , mr. cook , mr. sidenham , mr. fuller . another text to prove the practise of infant baptism is acts . . and the mention of baptizing housholds elsewhere . from whence mr. m. in his sermon pag. . ( though the assembly leave it out confess . of faith ch . art . . ) would gather examples of the new administration taking place just as the old , and so the practise of infant baptism by good consequence . to which i answered in my examen at large , pag. . &c. . that the new administration is much different from the old , to wit , baptism from circumcision . . that the practise of baptism in all the evangelists is set down of singular persons . . that the practise in the acts of the apostles is differently set down , sometimes of singular persons sometimes of a city , sometimes of families . . where housholds are said to be baptized there is no mention of an infant and the circumstances with other places do shew that luke doth understand onely the believers of the house . what mr. m. replied here to doth yield so much as shews there is no good consequence in this argument . housholds were baptized , therefore infants , sith he saith , it may be granted that a house is sometimes taken for the grown persons in that house . and what else he speaks that is to the point is briefly answered in my apology pag. . and in my postscript sect . . i have sufficiently answered mr. blake his arguing from housholds being the precedent of baptizing , and what he saith vind . foed . pag. . is answered before in this part of the review sect . . dr. homes in his animadv . on my exercit. ch . . pag. . tels us that the syriak in the story acts . . renders it , he was baptized and all the childern of his house , and sure enough a son of eight days old is a son . and if sons of the house then some sons of the father of the house . but he might consider that the same syriak renders v. . they spake the word with him , and with all the sons of his house , which cannot be said of infants . nor is it true that the doctor saith , that the sons of the house are the sons of the father of the house . for as tremelius in his note sayth , it is an hebraism , in which the son of the house is all one with the inhabitants in the house , servants as well as children . as for the evasion which the doctor and m. cook in his font uncovered , pag. ▪ have , that it is said [ all that were in his house , v. . not , of his house ] so that the word might be spoken to the prisoners and others which ran in on the ●ame of the thing , and then he and his were baptized , v. . it is . . without ground and unlikely , that the prisoners should be reckoned in his house when the prison is named distinctly from his house , as v. . & . compared shew , and he took such care about securing the prisoners v. , . and then brought paul and silas out , v. . afore he spake to them or they to him about salvation , nor is it likely that into the house of the jaylour could others get or would attempt it at that time of night . . were it granted yet it no whit avoyd● the objection , which is , that either there were no infants in the house ▪ or else they spake the word to them , which were absurd . but saith , the doctor , they spake the word to the infants , because they should be the better for it , v. . to which i reply , this reason is most gross it being contrary to all use of writers and grammar construction to say he spake the word to infants , to whom he directed not his speech at all , onely because the speech might be for their good . besides he spake the word to all in his house as he spake to the jaylour , it was the same speaking and preaching to the one and the other , and therefore if infants be there meant , the apostle is made as ridiculously to preach to infants , as francis the frier is by the popish legend to preach to a brute . besides the same syriak renders v. ▪ he exulted , and all of his houshold in the faith of god , and tremellius hath this marginal note , to a word sons of the house as a little before . as for what dr. homes with mr. cook adds about rendering 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all over his house , and rendering 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he did skip as in a dance of a galliar with triumph , they are such as having no other approved interprete● for their author , nor indeed agreeing with the gravity and seriousness of the business and the jaylors condition , are justly rejected as meer shifts to avoyd the plain evidence from that and many more places in my examen pag. , . ( which mr. m. yeilded ) that under the term [ houshold ] persons of years onely are meant by luke . as for what mr. baillee in his anabaptism pag. . tels us , that infants are not excepted ; i answer , that infants are plainly excepted from being meant in those speeches , if the things spoken of the houshold cannot be said of infants . but then , saith he , they will be excepted from salvation if they be not comprised under the term [ house ] sith luke ▪ . . salvation is said to come to the house , and acts . . cornelius and all his house should be saved by peters words , and acts . . upon the jaylours faith he and his house should be saved . i answer though infants be not in those passages comprised among the saved , yet it follows not by this interpretation that there is no other tex out of which we may conclude their salvation . and therefore all his inferences of wrong to infants ●s excluding them from salvation . because they are not included in the term [ houshold ] are but calumniatory and his other inferences shall be shewed to be vain in answering mr. b. as for mr. william cooks collections from luke . . acts . . in his font uncovered , pag. . . they require faith of the jaylour , that he and his family might be admitted into a saving estate . they said not that every one of his family must of necessity actually believe and profess , that so his houshold might be saved with him . so ( as he did with zacheus ) god shews here by his servants that he would deal with the jaylour , not standing for the present on strict terms of actual faith of all in his house , if the governour believe , it is enough to put the whole family into a saving estate inchoatively at least in respect of admission into covenant , neither are any to be excluded , but such as by stubborn refusal of the gospel offered deprive themselves of that privilege , i except against them . that he makes one sort of salvation to the believers , and another to his house in the same words and by the same means . . that he imagines a salvation inchoative that shall not be consummate . . that he makes a member of a family to have right to this salvation by the faith and profession of the head of the family , if they do not express their dissent or refusal of it . . that god at some time stands not on strict terms of actual faith of all in a house for salvation . all which are gross conceits and contrary to mark . ● . john . , , &c. in vain likewise doth mr. cuthbert sidenham in his exercit. c. . infer from these passages of saving and baptizing houses , and instances in the old testament of family churches , as if god had cast by an eternal decree this platform , baptism to be administred to families , and so to children . and why not then to servants , and wives , and friends ? are not they of the houshold ? and why doth not mr. sidenham take the whole nation into a church , when the whole nation was taken in formerly in abrahams posterity ? why doth he gather his church with such choice distinguishing some from others ? how doth mr. sidenham cross himself when he interprets luke . . the covenant is not made with him onely but with his house that is his seed , where he appropriates the term [ house ] to seed , and in the next page makes the term house a general phrase , which may sometimes comprehend more , and will have [ all his , acts . . ] to note no servants , which cannot be meant of servants , who are our own as goods and lands are , but not of a man : but must firstly and primarily refer to his children who are begotten of him ; and it may be secondarily to his kinred . in which his strange shiftings may be discerned , sometimes the term [ house ] must note the whole family of which servants and wives are a part , sometimes it must mean the seed , and then straightway it must be a general word comprehending more , and then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , must be meant not servants for they are a mans own but not of a man , and yet kinred secondarily must be meant , though they be not any more , no nor so much of a man as servants . but if we ask mr. thomas fuller in his infants advocate c. . he will tell us , for the jaylor ; that children ( if he had any ) were comprised under the expression of all his , is sufficiently known by satans interpretation , job . . of gods commission , behold , all that he hath is in thy power ; and gods co●senting thereunto , when permitting him by vertue thereof , to destroy all jobs children ; concerning which passage i say . . if [ all his , acts . . ] must be expounded as job . . all that is his , then must the jaylours sheep , and oxen be baptized as well as his children , for they were comprehended under [ all that he had ] . though jobs children were comprehended under [ all that he had ] yet there was never an one an infant : but such as did feast , and might curse god in their hearts . as for dr. homes his question , is any anabaptist sure there were no infants in these families ? i say , . it belongs to him to prove , who brings it for infant-baptism , that there were , and that they were baptized . . yet we are sure from the words none were meant but persons capable of hearing , and believers under the term [ house , acts . , . ] yea , but sayth mr. sidenham , those in his house are a larger term , but when he sp●aks of the baptized he sayth all his or of him ; but how doth it appear that [ all in his house ] is larger than [ all his ] or what can he gather from it but this , that he spake to more than he baptized ; but will mr. sidenham say , he baptized any to whom he spake not ? yea , that a man may see with what raw conceits these scriblers abuse people , who reade such ind●gested pamphlets with examination . his own observation excludes infants . for if [ all that were in his house ] ●e the largest term , then it comprehends [ all his , v. . ] but it notes no infant : for he spake not the word to any infant . therefore by his own observation infants are excluded . but enough of the janglings of these wrangling baby-sprinklers about this text. sect . xxi . that cor. . . proves not the practice of infant-baptism against mr. bailee , mr. cobbet , &c. there is another text which is by mr. cobbet , mr. bailee , dr. homes , mr. philips , and others produced for the practice of infant-baptism , and it is cor. . . mr. bailee in his anabaptism , pag. . argues thus , infants were baptized as well as their parents by moses baptism , ergo , infants as well as their parents ought to be baptized by christs baptism . the antecedent is the apostles , cor. . , ▪ the fathers baptized in the cloud , and in the sea , were the whole people as well young as old ; for no doubt the infants went as well through the cloud and the sea as their parents . answ. . the antecedent may be denied , because it is sayd [ our fathers ] not infants . but sayth mr. cobbet , this is spoken of the church fathers to paul and the gentile church-members , and the young ones were in after ages instruments to convey church-truths and blessings . refut . . it is not sayd our fathers as we are a church , none but abraham that i know is termed a father to the church of christ , he being onely named the father of the faithfull , and they his seed : but either [ our fathers ] notes simply the ancestors that went before , as it is usual to call those our forefathers who were before us in former generations , though they begat us not ; or else if it note their fathers in respect of natural generation , it notes as grotius in his annot in locum , the fathers of us , to wit , hebrews . but it may be sayd , that cannot be , ●ith paul onely was an hebrew , and then it should be my fathers . refut . . it is not unusual to speak of persons in the second person by figure of communication or enallage of persons , when the thing is not true of them but our selves , and when the thing is not true of us but others ; as when we say , we have preached , it is meant of one person that speaks , and thess. . . it is sayd , [ we which are alive , and remain ] and yet none of those that wrote were such , and so [ our fathers ] is no more than the fathers . . but there 's no need of a figure : for the epistle was written by paul and sosthenes , cor. . . and for paul there 's no question he was an hebrew , and sosthenes being a ruler of the synagogue , acts . . and in like manner crispus , v. . and apollo , v. . whom he mentions cor. . . & . . were hebrews , and therefore he saying , [ our fathers ] might well mean our fathers as hebrews . . it doth appear the infants were not meant in that they are onely meant , who were in a state of pleasing or displeasing god , as appears by v. . but so were not infants . . they onely are sayd to be baptized to whom the same thing was signified by the cloud , that is , signified by our baptism ; but to the infants nothing was signified by the cloud and sea , and passing through or under them , for they were not subjects of instruction ▪ capable to know a resemblance , ergo , infants ▪ were not baptized . but sayth mr. bailee , they went through the sea , ergo , they were baptized . answ. so did the beasts also , and yet are not sayd to have been baptized , but those that did or might understand the signification of it . . they that are sayd to be baptized , v. . are all sayd to eat and drink manna and water , and that it was or might have been to them spiritual meat or drink , v. , . but this is not to be said of their infants . for as dr. homes and mr. cobbet grant , the infants did not eat manna cakes , nor is it likely they did drink water , having breast milk , much less is it true that they were spiritual meat or drink to them , or might have been , ergo , they are not meant by the fathers baptized . nor is mr. bailees consequence good . for if the infants might be sayd to be baptized with moses baptism , yet it follows not they are to be baptized with christs , sith moses his baptism was not formal baptism , but similitudinary after a sort , they were baptized , that is , as grotius annot in locum quasi baptiz●ti , as if they had been baptized ; but a rule holds not from similitudinary to formal baptism . but mr. bailee would prove the consequence thus , the reasons which may be brought for the exclusion of infants from being baptized with their parents by christs baptism , militate as much against their being baptized with their parents by moses baptism . therefore if nowithstanding they were admitted to the one baptism , they may as well be admitted to the other . answ. the antecedent of this proof is false ; for in that of moses , the baptism is onely similitudinary in respect of a fact or event , which was no duty : but formal baptism of christ is a duty of the person baptized , mark . . acts . & . . which cannot agree to an infant though the other should . nor is such kinde of shadowy , typical , analogical , similitudinary baptism any more a rule about christian baptism than noahs ark , which had the like resemblance , pet. . . and this reason is confirmed from the text. for if by [ fathers ] are meant infants , v. . and they were baptized , and this must be a rule to us now about baptism of water appointed by christ , which was sayd of het similitudinary baptism , then sith the same are meant by [ fathers , v. , . ] and they are sayd to eat the same spiritual meat and drink , which was christ , which is manifestly meant of the lords supper , by the same reason which mr. bailee brings , infants must not be excluded from the lords supper . yea , but saith dr. homes , they did not eat all the lords supper . refut . they did all eat the same spiritual meat , and drink the same spiritual drink , which if he deny to be meant of the lords supper he deserts protestants and other divines acknowledging it , and may be refuted from the scope of the apostle , which is , to shew that they had in a sort , in respect of signification and use the same sacraments with ours , and yet were not secured thereby when they sinned . but mr. cobbet says , there must be a synecdoche in the later , not all the fathers simply being meant , but such as were capable of making a spiriual use thereof . refut . if [ all our fathers ] must be meant synecdochically , v. , . then also in v. . it being the same term in either , and the sense of them , v. . being meant of as many , v. as v. . yea , but there 's a bar put against infants receiving the lords supper , cor. . . refut . there are more bars , and more express put against infants baptism , acts . . matth. . . mark . . acts . . ephes. . &c. which it seems paedobaptists will leap over , or break down , notwithstanding they are so plainly set up by christ and his apostles to prevent their infant-baptism . that which mr. ainsworth in his dialogue brings out of psalm . . to prove that the israelites were indeed formally baptized with water , is upon mistake , that the water there poured out was on the israelites , whereas his own annotations on the places , and the words of the psalm refer it to what was done to the egyptians , exod. . , . and thus junius and others conceive it . yet were it granted him , there must be a synecdoche in the term [ all the fathers ] for the reasons given , and otherwise beasts as well as infants must be sayd to be baptized . sect . xxii . mr. blakes argument from gal. . . is answered . mr. blake had in his birth-privilege , pag. . argued from gal . . for infant-baptism , and his passages in his arguing i censured as very gross in my examen , part . . sect . . which he seeks to make good answer to my letter , cap. . to which i reply in my postscript sect . yet he hath thought good to reinforce his allegation of that text , and in his vindic. foed . cap. . sect . . he argues thus . fourthly , they that by birth according to the flesh are in the bosom of the church have right to baptism ; but infants by birth according to the flesh are in the bosom of the church , gal. . . infants therefore ought to be baptized . to which i answer , if he mean by [ the church ] the church christian visible , and by [ being in the bosom of it ] having actual visible church membership , i grant the major , and deny the minor , and for the text gal. . ▪ alleged to prove it , am no more induced by mr. bls. arguings to believe that it makes to his purpose , than i am to think the snow is black . for if it were to his purpose , the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , should have this sense , even so now infants by virtue of birth according to the flesh , as being the children of a believer by natural generation , are visible members in the christian church , v. g. of galatia , which is as far from the meaning of the apostle as east from west , if either i or those interpreters i meet with have not lost their common sense . this i prove from the true supplement which must make up the words complete sense . this will be understood by considering , that the whole verse is a compound proposition of that sort which logicians call comparative , as cor. . . the terms 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do shew it to be a comparative proposition , and therein are two parts , the first called the protasis , then he that was born after the flesh , persecuted him that was born after the spirit , that is ( for i think mr. bl. will not gain say this exposition ) ishmael who was born after the flesh being the son of 〈◊〉 the bond-woman , persecuted ( whether by mocking or by some crafty undermining device , ( as heinsius conceives ) isaac who was born after the spirit , by divine virtue according to the promise , as grotius i conceive rightly explains it . the other part is called the apodosis or rendering , wherein that which answers to the forepart first held out is expressed , now that always notes some agreement , correspondence , parity or likeness whether in quantity , quality , action &c. but according to mr. bls. apodosis or reddition , there is no such answerableness , or likeness as hath the shew of a comparison of things equal or alike ( as this is as the affirmative terms shew ) for who would conceive any better then nonsence in such a speech as this , even as ishmael persecuted isaac , so the children of christian believers are visible members in the christian church , it were all one as to say even as esau hated jacob so godly men are heirs of heaven , or have access to god , the absurdity of which is so gross that i am amazed mr. bl. doth not see it or will not confess it , there being no likeness , or shew of answerablenes either in the compared subjects or in the compared predicates . not in the subjects . for in the forepart the term , he that was born after the flesh , is taken in the worser part , as a term importing debasement , bondage , a curse , but in mr. bls. own expression vindic. foed ▪ ch . the term [ he that is born after the flesh ] notes in the better part a natural seed that inheri●s outward privilges yea and that no small one to be a visible church-member by vertue of birth after the flesh . and then in the predicates there is less answerablenes . for what answerablenes between persecuting him that was born after the spirit who resembles the true believer , and having right to outward privileges as visible church-membership and baptism by being born of a believer according to the flesh by natural generation , and this competent to infants ? but the supplement is this . even so now the jew who is carnal seeking righteousness by observing the law , and n●● through the spirit waiting for the hope of the righteousness which is by faith , now persecuteth by words and deeds the christian believer whether jew or gentile , who is born after the spirit , that is who by the spirit doth wait for the hope of the righteousness which is by faith gal. . this supplement is cleared to be genuine from the scope and series of the apostles doctrine before , and deductions after and the constant exposition of interpreters . the apostles doctrine before is to disswade the galatian christians from affecting to be under the law , v. . as the false teachers endeavoured to perswade them . and to that end he teacheth them the allegory of hagar and sarah , and their children ; hagar and sarah represent two covenants , the one of the law , the other of righteousness by faith ; and the children represent the one the justiciaries that seek righteousness by the works of the law , and are tenacious of that covenant , the other bellevers in christ , who seek righteousness by faith in him , and stick to the new covenant of grace , in which is promised the just shall live by faith. the former covenant is a covenant of bondage , and the children thereof are in bondage with their mother , that is , they are not to inherit the promise of righteousness ; but the later covenant is free , and her children are free-born heirs of righteousness . and though the former covenant had many children while the jewish church stood , the greatest part resting in the law , and expecting their righteousness in observing it , yet the new covenant that was as barren , having none or very few that were born of it , there being but few that looked for redemption by the messiah or the consolation of israel , but followed the pharises doctrine , of conceiving themselves righteous by keeping the law , now , being made known to all nations by preaching the gospel , hath many more children than the old , innumerable believers of the gentiles as well as the jews , embraci●g the doctrine of the gospel concerning righteousness by faith : and of this sort are we , sayth the apostle , v. . but it happens to us as of old , as ishmael persecuted isaac , so now the carnal jews who are justiciaties persecute us who are believers . and then follow deductions , one that it is gods sentence to reject justiciaries , as not heirs of righteousness , v. . another , the ass●rting the estate of believers to be a state of freedom , v. . and hereupon exhorts cap. . . that they should st●nd fast in their liberty wherein christ hath made them free , and not be again intangled with the yoke of bondage , to wit , the law and legal covenant . and that the constant exposition of interpreters is for the sense according to the supplement made by me , and not according to mr. bls. conceit , may appear by alleging some of their words , hieronym . comment . in epist. ad galat. lib. . cap. . thus paraphraseth the words , sicut ergo tum major frater ishmael lactentem adhuc & parvulum persequebatur isaac , sibi circumcisionis praerogativam , sibi primogenita vendi●ans : ita & nunc secundum carnem israel , adversus minorem fratrem de gentibus populum christianum , sustollitur , infl●tur , erig●tur . consideremus insaniam judaeorum : qui & dominum interfecere , & prophetas & apostolos persecu●i sunt : & adversantur voluntat● dei : & videbimus multo majores persecutiones , quas nos , etiam historiae docent , à judaeis in christianos quàm à gen●●bus concitatas . chrysost. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gorran . [ it ▪ a & nunc . ] illi scilicet qui secundum carnem vivunt ut judaei & haeretici per sequuntur eos qui secundum spiritum scilicet christianos & omnes bonos . perkins com . upon galat. . . these words are an answer to an objection , on this manner . we are hated of the jews , and therefore we are not the children of promise . the answer is two fold , one in this verse thus , no marvel , this is the old fashion ; it was thus in abrahams family . for ishmael ( born after the ●lesh ) persecuted isaac ( born after the spirit : ) and so it is at this day . pareus comment . in gen. . : illusio ismaelis adversus fra●rem significat , filios carnis persecutionem intent●re filiis promission●● . p●scator schol . in locum . ita & nunc carnalis israel spiritua em persequitur . grot. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] sic & nunc judaei illis ritibus addicti quos vultis imitari , maximo odio prosequuntur christianos . diodati . annot. ad gal. . . but as ] this singular privilege hath a condition joyned unto it like unto that which happened unto isaac who was scorned by ishmael , gen. . . that is to say , that all christians are likewise persecuted by the jews . di●son . cum enim in abrahami famil●a is qui naturae vi ordinariâ tantum genitus est , persequutus est eum , qui divinitus & spirituali ratione est genitus ; quid mirum , si idem nunc usu veniat nobis ? trapp . com. on the place . even so it is now ] and so also it is now , may we say at this day . for what do papists persecute us for else , but because we reject their justification by works ? which being determined i infer that mr. bls. arguing includes many absurdities . . that when it is sayd , even so it is now , and the term [ they that are born after the flesh ] is to be supplied , he by [ being born after the flesh ] means birth by natural genoration of infants born of christian parents , in which are many gross absurdities . . that he understands this sayd of infants , which must then be sayd to persecute . . that he takes [ being born after the flesh ] in the later part to note natural birth : but that is clean besides the apostles meaning , who considers persons born after the flesh , not as born by humane members and seed , but as born by a fleshly covenant . otherwise it should import no allegory contrary to the apostles speech , v. . which tels us these things are an allegory , that is , do speak or declare some other thing than the narration according to the grammar-sense imports , and that is , to be born according to the fleshly covenant , that is , to imbrace the doctrine of that covenant . . that [ to be born after the flesh ] should import birth of abraham as a believer , and so natural generation of each childe of a believer in that respect , but then [ to be born after the flesh ] would be common to isaac with ishmael , to him that is born after the spirit , of the free woman , by promise , with him that is born after the flesh of the bond woman ; for to be born of abraham or a believer agrees also to isaac , to him that is born after the spirit , of the free woman , by promise ; whereas to be born after the flesh is taken in a sense from which isaac and we , that is , paul and other christian believers are excluded . for he infers v. . therefore brethren , we are not the children of the bond woman , which is all one with this , we are no● born after the flesh , as it is expressed , v. . whence it is apparent that [ being born after the flesh ] doth onely import the birth of the bond woman , generation by abraham being not considered in this thing . . mr. bl. doth quite pervert the apostles intent in taking to be born after the flesh to import an honour , and that it implies two things : . a birth of nature , a childe by lineal descent of such a father . . outward prerogatives that accompany such a birth , as his words are vindic. foed . cap. . whereas the apostle mentions birth after the flesh as a debasement , takes it in the worser part , not as importing a descent from the father , but from the mother , and that mother a bond woman , and therefore the children servants or bond slaves by reason of their being born after the flesh . i will use the words of cameron in his conference with tilenus , die dominica april . . sect . . contrà verò ismael etsi patre libero attamen matre servanatus est , porro partus ventrem sequitur , nascendi ergo conditione servus fuit : tales scilicet sunt , qui deo cultum exhibent servilem fusticiarii : where he explains the apostles words , gal. . against this mr. bl. excepts vindic. foed . cap. . . that i make the apostles parallel to look at the allegory , and not at the history ▪ when the text makes it plain that the apostle looks at the history , then and now are both adverbs of time , and relate to ishmaels jears in person , not to the malignity of men of the covenant of works against those of the covenant of grace : here he is wholly silent , and answers in his apology nothing at all . answ. i conceived in answering the second i had answered this exception . but i now answer particularly . i conceived he meant by the history those words v. . . and the forepart of the . v. as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the spirit . and by the parallel he meant the later part of the . v. and the allegory to be that which answers to ishmael , to wit , to seek righteousness by the law , and to isaac , to wit , to seek righteousness by faith : which may be seen in bezas and piscators diagrams , where beza and piscator make ishmael 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to answer , or to be in the same rank as the type with the justitiaries that seek righteousness by the law , which answers ●o hagar , whose gneration is after the flesh , that is , justification is by works , and are cast out of the family of god , excluded from the inheritance of life as ishmael from abrahams , and isaac to answer to believers by virtue of the covenant of the gospel answering to sara , whose birth is after the spirit , that is , whose justification is by faith , and so are in abrahams house and heirs of eternal life . now it is true i do make the history to be in the forepart of the v. and the mystery or allegory in the later : not but that i acknowledg there is a history in both parts of the verse , as the adverbs then and now shew . but it is not the same history in the later part of the verse which is in the former . for then there should be nothing allegorized , yea there would be a meer tautology , if as mr. b● . speaks , then and now both adverbs of time relate to ishma●s jeers in person , then the speech of the apostle is inept or rather false . for then it should be [ as ishmael in person then jeered isaac , so now ishmael in person jeers isaac ] which is i say still a gross absurdity . but the later part contains another history of what was done in the apostles time , where in the terms [ born after the flesh and after the spirit ] are allgorized , and applied to other sorts of persons , and the term [ now ] relates the malignity of men of the covenant of works against those of the covenant of grace , as hath been fully proved before against mr. blake . . ' ●m . bl. excepted , that i shut out the literal sense both from the history and parallel , and bring in an allegorical sense in both , when the contrary is evident in the text , for though ishmael be a type of one under the covenant of works , yet that ishmael himself was a justiciary , or that he sought righteousness that way , and persecuted isaac under any such notion , as a man for gospel-righteousness , scripture hath no word , or so much as any colour . ' ● answ. this exception is the same in effect with the former , and in answering this the former was answered in my postscript , sect . . and now this is answered by answering the former , yet i finde a necessity to add something by reason of mr. bls. unreasonable importunity . i take notice that ishmael is confessed to be a type of one under the covenant of works , and whether he were himself a justiciary is not material , though sure there is some colour for it . but this seems to be mr. bls. minde that in the parallel , gal. . . there 's no allegorical sense , because ishmael himself was not a justitiary : which reason rests on this conceit , that neither in the forepart nor the later part of v. . by [ he that was born after the flesh ] is meant any other than ishmael himself or in person , which how it makes the apostles speech tautological or false is shewed before . mr. bl. goes on , to this he answers , he shuts not out the literal sense from the history but from the parallel , and that is so far from being contrary to the text , that it is expresly sayd , these things are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an allegory . i desire the reader to take notice , what kinde of interpretation mr. t. will put on this text , and who will have him pass for an eminent scripture interpreter ? ( when mr. b. is a man in his high censure defective in it ) then and now are both adverbs of time , and we must have a literal then and a mystical now , one of them to answer the history and the other the allegory ; if my interpretation be thus gross , i desire the reader to disclaim it ; either the h●story must be wholly looked at in the parallel , or else the allegory , there is that harmony between the apostles then and now that will not admit such divorce and separation . answ. what i sayd of mr. bs. interpretations of scripture in my praecursor , sect . . appears by this writing to be right , and will appear more hereafter . did he measure himself su● modulo ac ped● , he would be more cautelous than he is in expounding scripture , and if he did take warning by my words the church of god would have cause to thank me for them , however he or mr. bl. take them . i am sorry that the reader and my self are troubled about such st●rtings rather than arguings , which mr. bl. here and elsewhere useth , which sure do ill become him , who should at the years he is now of rather weigh things than lightly pass ever them with satyrical quips instead of arguments . he may take notice that i make no mystical now , gal. . . but in both parts the adverbs of time are literal , and yet the terms [ he that is born after the flesh , and he that is born after the spirit ] are without any absu●dity meant allegorically , as i have both sayd and demonstrated . . sayth mr. bl. i have told him , that he makes two contradistinct species of birth , that both cannot be incident to one man , no more than a man be a brute beast , or a brute beast a bird ; when it is plain that here is not a distribution of a genus into several species , but a distribution of a subject according to its several adjuncts , of which i give several instances . answ. i sayd in my postscript , that i not orely make birth after the flesh and after the spirit contradistinct but also contrary . contradistinct species may be incident to the same person , the same man may b● lo●g and broad , just and temperate , but not contrary , as white and black , just and unjust ; [ birth ] distributed into birth after the flesh and after the spirit must needs be a genus , or an equivocal term , it cannot be any subject either quod or quo , it being neither substance , quantity nor quality , but either action or passion , action as from the mother , passion as in the person born . now actions though they are capable of various modifications , yet i do not think any logicians call them subjects , or their several modifications adjuncts : but the substance whose action or passion it is , is the subject both of the action and passion , and their degrees and modifications , and these are adjuncts of that substance . mr. bl. adds of me , he is pleased to deny that it is a distribution of the subject according to its adjuncts , and gives in the thing in dispute for a reason . then the same person ( he says ) would be born after the spirit and after the flesh . answ. i give in this reason i confess : but i did not think this was in dispute , but out of all dispute ▪ the apostle making them two sons born of two mothers , v. . two several ways , v. . born to two several estates , v. , , . the one persecuting the other , and all these diversities are in the persons which are types , and in their antitypes ; and the apostle thence inferreth , that the one are not the other , v. . whence it follows , that birth after the flesh and spirit are not adjuncts of the same subject , but contrary attributes of several subjects . mr. bl. proceeds ▪ presently he confesseth that isaac was born after the flesh in the two senses i mention . and i am sure mr. t. will not deny that isaac was born after the spirit , and then either truth is very absurd , or else mr. t. hath quit me from absurdity ; but then he says , it is untrue in the apostles sense , for then he should be the childe of the bond-mayd , not by promise , a persecutor to be cast out , not to inherit . to which i answer , that my sense is the apostles sense , and mr. t. his sense far from it : for though the apostle doth indeed allegorize the text , as arias montanus renders it , quae sunt allegorizata , yet the apostle in the parallel looks at the letter of the history , as i have shewen , not at the allegory , which mr. t. had not a face to oppose , either he must deny now and then to be adverbs of time , or else he must allow of my interpretation , ishmael did never as a justitiary prosecute isaac under the notion of a follower of evangelical righteousness . answ. i do confess isaac was born after the spirit , and that he was born after the flesh in the two senses of mr. bl. for one born of natural parents abraham was his natural father , and in the sense more common in scripture for the outward prerogatives that accompany such a birth ( though i do not find the phrase , born after the flesh in this later sense in scripture , not phil. . . rom. . . . cor. . . where the term [ flesh ] is used and yet i think onely in the first place importing prerogatives , no where the phrase born after the flesh in that sense ) yet not in the apostles sense , in which to be born after the flesh notes birth without consideration of the father as by a mother that was a bond-woman , and so no prerogative is intimated in it but a debasement or deminution and so isaac was not born after the flesh , that is not of a bond-woman , by an usual way of generation , but of the free-woman by divine virtue according to a promise to her when past childe-bearing in the course of nature . and this to be the apostles sense is proved before , and mr. bls. sense proved very absurd , and his reasons for it answered . yet he adds of me . after some concessions in full contradiction to himself , i deny not ( saith he ) but legal justitiaries may be in the visible church as ishmael in abrahams house , though the apostle make the parallel onely in the casting out , that they might not inherit , apolog. pag. . ) he saith , if mr. bl. would gather anything hence for himself , he must prove that the apostle makes some to be of the visible church by virtue of being born after the flesh as their prerogative , which is as wide from the apostles meaning , as the east is from the west , as far as the east is from the sun-rising , he should have said , that is the thing that i have proved , and do maintain , i laid down by way of syllogism and have an apology instead of an answer . mr. t. hath a notable faculty in begging of the question in agitation . the apostles full scope ( i confess ) is another thing ; but i still affirm that he occasionally expresses that from whence this is evidently deduced , namely a distinction of births literal not allegorical , which mr. t. never will be able with any reason to deny , till it can be proved that then and now look at the allegory , not at the history ; i can prove from luke . . that the israelitish women are daughters of abraham , though it is plain that another thing there was christs main intention . answ. mr. bl. continues to write at random . there 's no shew of contradiction much less a full contradiction in my words to my self . this may be true , justitiaries may be in the visible church , and this also , to be born after the flesh or to be a justitiary doth not import a prerogative giving title to be of the visible church , my speech was right , and needs not to be mended by any of mr. bls. fl●●ts . he hath a full answer to his syllogism before , and so he had before in the apology , the strength of his arguing being thus expressed here , the consequence is plain , birth of the flesh in the church gave a church interest , which is denied to be proved from galat. . . and was denied before . and though being an answerer i need not prove , and therefore begging the question is charged on me frivolously by mr. bl. for he only begs the question who takes for granted that which he should prove ( which is mr. bls. fault who useth to d●ctate when he should prove ) yet did i prove that the apostles scope is not onely another thing than the asserting of a prerogative of visible church-membership by being born after the flesh , that is , being the childe of a believer by natural generation , but that he deduceth their casting out of the church from it , and that the birth after the flesh is taken in the worser part as that which bringeth bondage not church estate or christian liberty , nor doth birth after the flesh respect the descent from a believer but the bond-woman , and that this birth is in the antitype allego●ical , and yet the adverbs then and now are adverbs of time , and a history is related in both parts of the . v. of gal. . generally interpreters take the words , even so it is now , as meant of the jews , which cannot be true literally : for they were not born after the flesh , that is , of bond-women , but of free-women , which were true israelites , or daughters of abraham , as mr. b. here confesseth . mr. bl. proceeds . secondly , he sayth that i say , such are in the bosom of the church , when the apostle sayth , they persecute the church , and are cast out : i desire the reader to consider , if this had any truth in it ; whether it hold with greater strength for me or him ? they are cast out , and therefore they were in , is my argument : they are cast out , and therefore were never in , sayth mr. t. . the apostle sayth no such thing , that they are cast out ; ishmael was in the family when he persecuted , though afterwards he was cast out of the family ; these are in the church , though in case they continue persecution , they shall in fine be cast out ; now in present they have a being in it . answ. it is true that this was my second exception against his gross perverting of the apostles words , [ even so it is now ] as if the meaning were , that by virtue of being born after the flesh , some infants , to wit , those that are born of a believing parent are in the bosom of the church , when the apostle sayth , . they persecute , which cannot be meant of infants . . in that they are born after the flesh they persecute the church , therefore he ascribes no privilege to them , as accruing to them , by the birth after the flesh , but a cursed practice . . that they persecute the church , therefore while born after the flesh they were not in the bosom of the church , that is the church christian visible . . that they are cast out , therefore not in the church . to the two first of these nothing is answered , the consequence of the third is denied , he supposeth they did persecute the church , and yet remained in ; which is most palpably false : for this being apparently meant of the unbelieving jews that sought righteousness by the law , and acknowledged so by interpreters , it is notoriously false , that they were in the bosom of the christian church , while they did persecute the church ; yea , saul himself was not after his conversion taken in presently to communion with the disciples at jerusalem , till they knew that he ceased to be a persecutor , acts . . so that the words [ even so it is now ] expounded as mr. bls. words intimate [ even so now by virtue of being born after the flesh , that is , by natural generation born of a believing parent , there are some even infants that are in the bosom of the christian visible church , as members of it , and remaining in it , do persecute the church ] are so false , and the exposition so unsavoury , that it is a wonder to me , that neither mr. bl. nor the prefacers to his book take care to have it left out . that which mr. bl. answers to the fourth thing in this exception is of like stamp . . he sayth , it follows not they were cast out , therefore never in . but my argument is this , they were by reason of their being born after the flesh cast out , therefore not for this reason in the bosom of the church . . that it follows , they are cast out , therefore they were in : which consequence i deny , being understood of the church christian visible , and the particular persons who are sayd to be cast out : for they are sayd to be cast out not from what they had , but from what they might have had or others had ; as matth. . . it is sayd , the children of the kingdom shall be east out ( of the kingdom of heaven , v. . in which others were , and they not ) into outer darkness . he sayth also , the apostle sayth no such thing that they are cast out , but mentions a command of casting them out . to which i replied , as if gods dictum were not factum : if they were not cast out , why doth the apostle allege that text ? my meaning was , gods speech of the casting out of hagar and ishmael was not a bare command , but such as included a sentence and decree of god , which he took course to execute , and that the apostle allegeth the text not to prove a duty , but to shew an event , or fact of god. for as the apostle allegeth it , the casting out is of the legal covenant , and the children of it those that desired to be under the law , and their casting out is their rejecting from the inheritance of righteousness and being gods people : now this could not be any mans duty but gods act determining and accordingly accomplishing this sentence , that righteousness shall not be by the law , nor justitiaries his people , and therefore it is most absurd in mr. bl. to determine , that some by virtue of being born after the flesh have a right to be in the bosom of the church christian , when the apostle determines they are for this reason rejected or cast out . i had , thirdly , excepted against mr. bl. as making those that are born after the flesh , gal. . . abrahams seed , wherein he joyns with arminius in calling them abrahams seed who sought justice in the law. mr. bl. vindic. foed cap. . sayth , i joyn with arminius , and that he follows mr. bayne . for sayth he , i interpret it of a natural seed that inherit outward privileges , and never reach the birth of the spirit , so mr. baines interprets it , the children of the flesh here , are those onely who in course of nature came from abraham , baines on ephes. . pag. . quarto . answ. it is true mr. bayne hath those words , but yet he excepteth pag. . against arminius as i do for calling legal justitiaries ( who are meant by [ they that are born after the flesh , gal. . . ] ) abrahams seed . for there he thus speaks . beside that , though the sons of the flesh may signifie such , who carnally , not spiritually conceive of the law , yet the seed of abraham without any adjoyned is never so taken . it is true that mr. baines so interprets the term [ children of the flesh , rom. . . ] as mr. bl. hath cited him , which place he meant by [ here ] but not the te●m [ he that is born after the flesh , gal. . . ] yea pag. . he saith , for though children of the flesh in some other scripture ( meaning gal. . . ) doth note out justitiaries , seeking salvation in the law , yet here ( rom. . . ) the literal meaning is to be taken ; a childe of the flesh being such a one who descendeth from abraham according to the flesh . so that this is the thing that i except against mr. bl. for that whereas by the consent of all , that i know , interpreters besides himself [ they that are born after the flesh , gal. . . in the apodosis there even so it is now ] do note legal justitiaries who are there called the children of the bond-woman , not called abrahams seed ( for those he had determined before to be those of the faith , gal. . . christs v. . ) nor to inherit , but cast out , he on the contrary , makes them abrahams seed as arminius doth in his analysis of rom. . and ascribes to them the inheriting of outward privileges as to be members of the visible church in that they are born after the flesh . whereas the term [ born after the flesh ] is taken in the worser part precisely from the birth from the bond-woman abstractively from generation by abraham and importing no privilege , but a privation of privilege . as for mr. bayn , though he interpret [ children of the flesh , rom. . . ] of those onely who in course of nature came from abraham , and proves there that it notes not legal justitiaries , because it is applyed to esau who is considered as having done neither good nor evil . yet mr. bl. wrongs him in two things . . in that he saith , mr. baine interprets it of a natural seed inheriting outward privileges , whereas though mr. baine doth interpret [ children of the flesh , rom. . . ] of a natural seed , yet not as inheriting thereby outward privileges . . that he makes his exposition of [ children of the flesh , rom. . ] to be his exposition of [ those that are born after the flesh , gal. . . ] whereas he expresly saith , though children of the flesh in some other scripture ( which can be no other than gal. . . doth note out justitiaries , seeking salvation in the law. i confess cameron in his conference with tilenus in the place before cited makes ishmael not onely a type of justitiaries , gal. . , . but also rom. . , . and isaac a type of believers in both places , and esau and jacob types not of justitiaries and believers , but of uncalled and called , non-elect and elect , and so the resemblance to be different of the two former brethre● from the later ; which to me seems not right : for me thinks the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , have this sense , that the thing he had sayd before did not onely appear in ishmael and isaac , but also more fully in esau and jacob , which me thinks imports , that the apostle meant to prove the same thing by esau and jacob , which he did by ishmael and isaac , and me thinks the long parenthesis he imagines from v. , to . agrees not with that expression v. . not onely so but also , they being connexive particles , and so not agreeable to a parenthesis . but cameron and all others i know , understand by [ those that are born after the flesh , gal. , . ] legal justitiaries . mr. john cotton grounds of baptism , &c. pag. . by such as are born after the flesh ( gal. . . ) the apostle doth not mean such as are born by ordinary course of nature : but such as are born and bred of the carnal seed of the covenant of the law ; which as it bego● by ishmael carnal confidence of his own strength , ( or else he would never have slighted and mocked the promised seed ) so it begat in cain and saul and judas an utter despair of grace and salvation . my fourth exception was , whereas the covenant of grace is made the reason of baptizing infants ; to be born of hagar , that is , to be in the covenant of works , should give a childe interest into the church of christ. to this all that mr. bl. replies is this , if mr. tombs his gloss ( borrowed from arminius ) must stand for the sense of the place , that to be born of the flesh , is to be under the covenant of works , then it will hardly be avoided ; but in case mr. baines interpretation may stand of a birth in nature , according to the flesh , then the argument is valid . answ. that mr. baines doth interpret no otherwise the term [ born after the flesh , gal. . . ] than i do , is shewed above : yet if it were true , that he did as mr. bl. mis-allegeth him interpret [ born after the flesh , gal. . . ] of those onely who in course of nature came from abraham , yet it is false that either there or rom. . . he conceived this term [ children of the flesh ] to import a natural seed by virtue of it inherititing outward privileges , and therefore the argument of mr. bl. is not valid , though mr. baines were granted to be rightly alleged by him . and for that he sayth , i borrow my gloss from arminius : i answer , i have shewed that i have deduced it from the apostles own words , and have the concurrent judgment of many divines of best note , to whom it is no disparagement , that in this arminius joyns . sect . xxiii . mr. brinsley and dr. homes their conjecture from hebr. . . to prove infant-baptism is refelled . there is another text , to wit , hebr. . . from which dr. homes animad . on my exercit. pag. . and after cap. . would prove infant-baptism , and with him mr. john brinsley doctrine and practice of poedob . pag. . &c. which if their arguing were good , would not onely prove the practice of infant-baptism , but also that it is a principle of christianity , and part of the foundation . the arguing is to this effect , if the doctrine of laying on of hands put after the doctrine of baptisms cannot be expounded of any other than the laying on of hands for confirming the baptized in infancy than the doctrine of laying on of hands put after the doctrine of baptisms presupposeth infant-baptism . but the antecedent is true , ergo , the consequent . the antecedent is proved by parts , . it cannot be understood of laying on of hands for healing or miraculous gifts of the spirit . for then the knowledg of the extraordinary gifts of the spirit should be put among the principles of christian knowledg , which is absurd . to which i answered in my exercit. pag. . that it is no absurdity to put that among the principles of christian knowledg , those gifts being though by extraordinary power , yet frequent in those days , and necessary to be known to confirm young christians , that jesus is the christ , because the spirit thus given was the great witness concerning christ , that he was the son of god , and shewed that he was gone up to the father , else the spirit had not descended , it was it by which the world was rebuked , and the saints established . to this sayth dr. homes , that i by and by as good as confess it a eogent reason , because i go about to prove that imposition of hands here mentioned is for ordination , because it was still in use , and to continue to be used . answ. the doctor misallegeth my words : for i do not say positively as he cites them , but comparatively thus ; for it is more likely that imposition of hands for ordination , which was still in use , and to continue to be used , should be there meant , than laying on of hands for confirmation after baptism of infants , which hath no rule nor example in scripture . . saith dr. homes , those gifts usual onely in that little time of the apostles were not to be joyned with , and put among the first principles of christian religion to be taught young ones to fit them for baptism , or to give an account of their faith after baptism . answ. those principles heb. . , . are not sayd to be taught to little ones in age , but in knowledg of christian religion , nor are they sayd to be taught to fit them for baptism , or to give account of their faith after baptism : they may be principles and a foundation , though they were taught them after baptism , and to establish themselves rather than to give account to others . now for what reason the knowledg of these might be a part of the beginnings of the doctrine of christ to young christians is given above . and there is in the text that which may induce us to conceive the giving the spirit by laying on of hands meant , because v. . they that were enlightned , which many even of the ancients understood of baptism , commonly called by the greeks [ inlightning ] are sayd , to have tasted of the heavenly gift and to be partakers of the holy ghost , which seems to be meant in respect of these gifts , and paul acts . . propounded this as a catechism question to certain disciples at ephesus , have ye received the holy ghost since ye believed ? but i rested not on it , because the other of laying on of hands for ordination seemed to me more likely then . . sayth mr. brinsley , it s not likely to be meant of laying on of hands for ordination , . because that 's not fit to be taught younglings , children , novices , as milk , heb. . . if this be milk , viz. the doctrine of church-discipline , church-officers , church-goverment , &c. what shall we call o● count strong meat ? to this was answered , that however all the doctrine about church-discipline might be unfit to be taught novices , yet laying on hands for ordination being an outward ri●e of continued use , it might be needfull to be taught younglings in christian profession . to this dr. homes replies , that no ingenuous man we●ghing and pondering things will think that little children should be taught , as one of the first elements of christian faith the imposition of hands to ordain ministers . to which i say , many even of later writers , whom me thinks the doctor should not deny to be ingenuous men do refer the laying on of hands , heb. . . to ordination , dicson on heb. . . ames bell. ener . tom . . lib. . cap. . th . . cartwright answ. to rh. annot. in locum . thomas hooker survey part . . cap. . pag. . noyes the temple measured , pag. . hudson essence and unity of the church , pag. . and vindic. pag. . dr. hammond of the keys cap. . sect . . chamier tom . . panstr . cath. lib. , cap. . sect . . recites the opinions of papists , as differing , some referring to confirmation , some to ordination , some to giving the holy ghost . the new annot. diodati , speak as uncertain , to which to refer it , grotius refers it to all rites besides baptism ▪ and the lords supper , in confirmation , ordination , curing the sick , reconciling penitents , blessing the married : and therefore whether little children were taught the doctrine thereof or no , many ingenuous men conceive it meant , heb. . . . though it might be conceived unfit for little children in age to be taught , yet it may nevertheless be fit to be taught younglings in christianity meant , heb. . . it seems to me to be as fit to be taught little children as the doctrine of confirmation , and may be as easily learned by them as the points about the resurrection of the dead , and eternal judgment . . sayth mr. brinsley , the very putting these two together [ baptisms and laying on of hands ] seems in calvins judgment to import some relation that the one should have to the other , as in the other principles which are by pairs . to this i answered , that baptism and imposition of hands might be fitly coupled , being both ordinances for initiation , the one into the profession of christianity , the other into sacred function . to this dr. homes replies , that imposition of hands initi●te● but few , and that long after they are church members , and that marriage might better be coupled with baptism or imposition of hands and the lords supper . answ. if all this were granted , yet the answer stands good , that the joyning proves not mr. brinsleys sense necessary , which is enough for my purpose to shew the insufficiency of his argument . but dr. homes thinks to blow away all by avouching his and mr. brinsleys interpretation , which he cals a naked and honest explication of the text. and that is , that the doctrine of baptisms is the doctrine which the catechized of the heathens recited afore their baptism , and the doctrine of laying on of hands was the doctrine which infants of believers before baptized in their infancy , after they were past childhood , rehearsed before the church , upon which they were received into the church by imposition of hands . answ : he may well call it a naked interpretation , because it is brought into the world without proof , there being nothing in the text for it , and all the shew of proof is onely the opinion of some late writers mistaken about the practise of antiquity . yea me thinks if the doctor with his brethren of the congregational way , as it is called , did believe this interpretation to be genuine , they should admit their infant-sprinkled members by laying on of hands , which yet i hear not that they do . but against this interpretation are these reasons . . in it is supposed that the doctrine of baptisms , and laying on of hands is not the doctrine concerning those rites , but the doctrine recited when those rites were used . but the doctrine then recited being the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment , and the profession of repentance from dead works and faith towards god , if the doctrine of baptisms and the laying on of hands be the doctrine recited by the baptized , and confirmed at the use of those rites , it will be the same with the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment , repentance from dead works and faith towards god , and so those several principles will be confounded . . the doctrine of baptisms was that which in those to whom the apostles wrote was layd before , which is intimated in the words v. . not laying again . but they were hebrews , therefore not , as the doctor , heathens that recited it at baptism . . there 's no distinction in the text as if some recited the doctrine at baptism , and others who had been baptized in infancy recited it at laying on of hands , but the same persons had the doctrine of both layd in them . . there 's not a word of reciting the doctrine at the several rites by the taught , but the laying of the foundation of the doctrine of those rites by the teachers . . the doctrine of baptisms whether by them be meant those of john and christ , or other , and of laying on of hands is more likely and more generally conceived to be concerning the use of baptism and laying on of hands . but the doctrine of the use of these was not recited by either sort of catechized persons , though both sorts were taught both doctrines . . the placing the words [ the doctrine of baptisms and laying on of hands ] in the middle between faith and resurrection of the dead , is against the doctors sense , sith the doctrine of baptisms , being joyned by apposition to faith and repentance , the sense must be , that repentance and faith were the doctrine recited at baptism , not the resurection of the dead , which comes after , if the doctors sense were right . . this order leads us to conceive , that the writer of that epistle did orderly place the elements of christianity in which christians were instructed , to wit , repentance and faith before baptism , then the baptism of water , and the laying on of hands for the obtaining the spirit by prayer after baptism , and then the declaration of what they were to expect , the resurrection of the dead , and eternal judgement , wherein sentence should pass on them concerning their everlasting state . . the terms [ of repentance , of faith , of the doctrine , of the resurrection , of judgement ] are all governed of [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the foundation ] as if they were possessed of it ( as the grammarians speak ) the word [ doctrine ] is not joyned by apposition to [ faith ] as if the sense were [ which is the doctrine of baptisms ] which must be the sense if the doctors interpretation be right . . those interpreters which are brought as giving us that sense which dr. homes and mr. brinsley all●ge are but late writers , and such as speak onely by ghess without proving the antiquity of the use they mention out of ancient writers , or alleging any ancient writer expounding the text heb. . . ●s referring to that use , dr. homes recites p. , . the words of pareus , calvin , bullinger , marlorat , hofman , theophylact , mr. cotton , of all which there is none afore the . century but theophylact placed by dr. usher at the year . and his words with the words of hofman , and marlorat do not at all speak of the use of laying hands on children of believers baptized in infancy , and bullingers words apply the laying on of hands to the ordination of pastors . so heedlesly did dr. homes write his anima●versions that his own authors he allegeth are not for him , or else against him . and for mr. cotton he sayth onely , there be that conceive and that not improbable there was such an use , and that some judicious divines have conceived that use to be the reason of reckoning the laying on of hands among the principles , heb. . . and he brings it to prove that then elders were not without laying on of hands , for all church-members had hands layd on them , and so might more freely lay hands on others : which speech if true , and the inference be good , then women who were church-members had hands layd on them , and might more freely lay hands on others . but the new england elders , of whom i think mr. cotton was one , if not the very penner of those answers , in the answer to the . question pag. . say , if it were not so , then one of these would follow , either that the officers must minister without any ordination at all , which is against tim. . . heb. . . so that there it is referred to the same laying on of hands which is mentioned tim. . . which is indeed a very common exposition of interpreters . it is true calvin and pareus refer it to the use mr. brinsley mentions : yet chamier tom . . panstr . cath. lib. . cap. . sect . . allegeth with salmeron , justinian , calvin , beza , aretius , piscator , concerning the initial laying on of hands upon the catechized to prepare them to receive baptism , ( for which use dr. hammond in his letter of resolut . pag. . brings some places of the ancients ) and calvin in his institutions l. . cap. . sect . . disallows hieroms judgment , conceiving that the laying on of hands for confirmation was an apostolical ordinance . beza saith , that the doctrine heb. . , . was delivered when they met either to baptize , or lay on hands on infants or adult persons ; so that he speaks as one not fully resolved . and indeed interpreters , as is shewed above , are not agreed whether to refer it to laying on hands on the baptized or the ordained , yet very few of the protestants refer it to the laying on of hands for confirmation of them that were baptized in infancy , and the . article of the church of england makes confirmation one of those things which have grown of the corrupt following of the apostles . i sayd in my exercit. sect . . that if hierom. tom . ▪ in his dialogue against the luciferians do assert that use of imposition of hands from scripture , yet he allegeth not heb. . . for it , but the examples of giving the holy ghost by laying on of hands in the acts of the apostles . to this dr. homes replies , . that however the antiquity holds good , that imposition of hands was used to be after applied to them that have been baptized . to which i say , this being granted , yet as i shew there and here the use of baptizing infants is not proved thereby , nor doth hierom confirm mr. brinsleys exposition . . sayth dr. homes , in that place he quotes other places than the acts of the apostles , and speaks to our purpose thus , and then reciting some words of hierom , adds , so hieronymus . wherefore he supposeth imposition of hands may be on them that had the spirit in baptism before : which is not denied by me , nor do i see what that is to dr. homes his purpose to prove that the laying on of hands heb. . . is meant of believers infants before baptized , and then upon their own profession received into the church by imposition of hands . yet chamier . tom . . panstr . cath. lib. . cap. . sect . . allegeth hierom , as referring the imposition of hands to the time of baptism , not some years after . i sayd in my exercit. pag. . but if it were supposed , that this imposition of hands meant heb. . . were on the baptized ; yet this proves not the baptism of infants in the apostles days , unless it could be proved , that it was used after the baptism of infants onely for a confirmation either of the baptism or the baptized . on the contrary , it is apparent out of tertullian de corona militis , cap. . that in the primitive times the baptized did make his confession sub man●● antisti●is , the minister laying hands on him . to this dr. homes says , . that the learned men before quoted gave us the sum of antiquity . but how little to the purpose their words are , or how destitute of proof is shewed above . . he cites in the margin tertul. de bapt . cyprian . ep. . & . august . tract . . on johns epist. but none of the passages he cites prove the use of laying on hands after the baptism of infants , which is many years after baptism , but of laying hands presently after baptism . . he excepts against my allegation out of tertullian , that he there disputes for receiving unwritten traditions , that he alludes to no scripture authority , or to any approved antiquity : which doth no whit infringe my allegation : for notwithstanding these things his testimony is valid for the practice of what was done at baptism in his time , of which no doubt he was often a spectator . . saith he , [ sub manu ] is a phrase that hath so many senses as it is no ways certain , that here [ sub mann ] [ under the hand ] signifies imposition of hands . haply it may rather signifie the ministers lifting up of his hand in prayer : as pacianus hath it , we obtain , sayth he , in prayer pardon , and the holy spirit in baptism by the mouth and hand of the antistes . answ. the most likely sense is , the bishop laying on his hand , as being nearest the use of the phrase . dr. homes his sense is not likely , . because that which is sayd was done under the hand of the bishop , to wit , the protestation of the baptized , intimates that the bishop did not then lift up his hand in prayer , but hold his hand on the head of the protestant . nor is it likely he would then be praying when he should attend to his confession . . dr. homes shews not the phrase to be used elsewhere in his sense . for that which he cites out of pacianus is a different expression , by the hand , is not all one with under the hand . and yet chamier . panstr . cath. tom . . lib. . cap. . sect . . refers that obtaining by the hand to the imposition of hands at baptism . i added further . and to save labour in reciting testimonies chamier may be seen , who in his panstr . cath. tom . . lib. . cap. . sect . . &c. at large proves out of the ancients , that the imposition of hands , which was after made a distinct sacrament called cofirmation , was either a part or appendix of baptism , and cites many passages to shew , that it was when the baptized was to confess the fai●h , and renounce satan . against th●s dr. homes excepts , that chamier quotes but few , and those not of credit . but though the books some of them be not the authors works whose names they bear , yet many of them are of credit , yea all for what they are brought , and for the purpose for which they are alleged however dr. homes scorn or score with his nails those fathers ▪ if i may use his own words of my doing which is more justly to be charged on himself . dr. homes grants there imposition of hands presupposeth baptism , precedent , though in men of ripe years , but he should have added at the same solemnity joyned with it . the other testimonies are sufficient to shew the practice in the age in which the writers of them lived . but for dr. homes to say , that chamier doth not assert as from himself or from antiquity , that imposition of hands was to be conjoyned with baptism , when he doth at large undertake to prove , it was a part or appendix of baptism , is too much boldness in the doctor , much more to say , but rather tels us the contrary , partly from himself , partly from the authors he quotes , as that men were reconciled in pen●nce by imposition of hand● , sect. . which is nothing to the business . for though imposition of hands in reconciliation might be unconjoyned to baptism , yet what chamier says stands good , that imposition of hands for confirmation was a part or appendix of baptism . and what the doctor adds , sect. . that though confirmation belongs to the solemnities of baptism , yet after a while after baptism , is a plain confession of what i allege as averred by chamier , that that imposition of hands which after was made a distinct sacrament long after baptism , did formerly belong to the solemnity of baptism : which shews how little regard the doctor had to his own allegations . but it is not chamier alone who avers that anciently baptism and laying on of hands were together ; salmasius also a man of very accurate study in antiquity in his apparatus ad librum de primatu papae , pag. . speaks thus , discat igitur in aegypto & in graecia & in toto oriente confirmationem quae separata est à baptismo non fuisse notam . unus idemque presbyter in omnibus orientis ecclesiis simul & semel in baptismo conferendo etiam chrismationem cum manuum imposition● ac signaculo dominico dabat egressis è piscin● sive baptisterio : which he proves there ▪ out of severus alexand● . cyr●llus hierosolymitanus , and refers to more testimonies in his treatise de chrismate . and he says , p. ● . primis temporibus in occidente chrismatio & manuum impositio sequebantur post baptismum , posteaquam à baptismo separata est confirmatio aliquando in sola chrismatione constitit , pag. . he proves in tertisllians , cyprians , and others times , that haetres erant baptismi hoc est unius sacramenti partes , lotio , unctio , & impositio manuum . out of all which i conclude , that the laying on of hands for the confirmation of children of believers baptized in infancy , when they came to years , and professed the faith , was altogether unknown in the eastern churches anciently , and in the western onely in the declining times , and therefore notwithstanding calvin and pareus his conceits there was no such thing meant , heb. . . as baptism of infants , and their receiving into the church , many years after by laying on of hands , there being no such things known in the days of that writer , nor some hundred of years after , and therefore mr. brinsley and dr. homes argument from thence for infant-baptism is of no weight . i go on . sect . xxiv . dr. hammond his way of proving infant-baptism from the jews baptizing proselytes children is shewed to be vain . dr . henry hammond in his letter of resolution to six queries , in the fourth quere , sect. . speaks thus , but there is no need of laying much weight on this , or any the like more imperfect ways of probation , ( meaning the example of circumcision , gen. . of baptizing a whole houshold , acts . . christs reception of little children , matth. . . mark . ) the whole fabrick being sufficiently supported , and built on this basis ( the customary baptism among the jews ) and that discernible to be so , if we consider it first negatively , then positively . first negatively , that christian baptism , which is an institution of christs , lightly changed from the jewish custome of receiving of proselytes by him appointed in his life-time , and settled a little before his ascension hath nothing in the patern , whence it is copied out , nothing in the copy it self , as it is set down in the new testament , i. e. in the words of the institution , or in his or the apostles practice , which doth any way exclude the christians children from being part of that indefinite number , that ought to be baptized , or for whom baptism was instituted by christ. that there is nothing exclusive of them in the patern ( the jewish custom of baptism ) hath been sufficiently evidenced by the several branches of that already insisted on . answ. i like the doctors ingenuity in his waving the imperfect ways of proving infant baptism he mentions , and doubt not to shew his own to be no better than those he relinquisheth . the substance of his proof is this , as i conceive . the jews were wont when they admitted proselytes to baptize them and their children , and this is discernible to be the patern of christian baptism , and that christs institution was but a copy according to that patern , and therefore infants to be baptized , the apostles and the first churches practise shewing it to be so . concerning which i say , . it seems baptism was a custome of all nations as well as the jews . grot. annot. in matth. . . conceives that for as much as strangers washed , not circumcised , were obliged by those laws onely which god had given to all mankinde , it is easie to be understood that baptism was among old institutions arising , as i think , after the great deluge in memory of the world purged . whence that famous speech among the greeks , the sea washeth away all the evils of men . surely we read even in the epistle of of peter , that baptism is answerable to the deluge . and annot. in matth. . . yea with prosane nations it was of old used , that they who would be initiated were first washed all over their body , no doubt testifying thereby their purpose of innocency . . by the passages cited by the same author in matth . . justin martyr , clemens alexandrinus , tertullian , and augustin allegeth those nations custome for their practise ; nor do i know that ever dr. hammond or any other hath alleged one passage in scripture or any of the fathers , that might evince that the custome of baptizing or baptizing infants was derived from the jews initiating proselytes by baptisme , but some passages in the fathers shew rather that they took it as instead of circumcision . mr. selden de syned : ebrae . lib. . cap. . pag. , . mentions some who have conceived that the iewish baptism in initiating proselytes was in imitation of christs example , though he do not beleive it ; and that schickardus conceives they added a certain baptism to circumcision to difference them from samaritans , which i allege to shew that notwithstanding the doctors supposition , that the whole fabrick of baptism is discernible to be built on that basis the customary baptism among the jews , yet many will conceive it needs more proof than the bare recital of passages out of jewish writers . i for my part conceive that there was a custom of baptizing proselytes afore christs incarnation among the later jews , but that either it should begin from jacobs injunction to his houshold gen. ▪ . or gods command , exod. . . for the israelites to wash their clothes afore the giving the law ( though the jewish doctors allege these for it ) i do not conceive , those places speaking of washing jews by nature , not proselytes , whereas the jews baptized not jews by nature , as selden l. cap . de jure nat . ac gent. juxta discipl . ebrae . sayth , but by profession , nor do i conceive mr. seldens exposition in his book de syned , l. . cap. . that the sea was some vessel or receptacle of waters wherein they washed their bodies before the giving of the law exod. . . but the read sea . for as the drinking of the rock , is a relation of an accident of gods providence for them , signifying to them the lords supper , so their passing through the sea declares , not what they were injoyned to do , but what god did for them , that under the cloud they passed through the sea , to signify to them the same thing that baptism doth to us , our safe passage to life by christ , nor do i think dr. hammonds exposi●ion sect . . pag. . right , that they were baptized into moses in the cloud and in the sea v. i. e. were ( by these two great solemnities , the cloud that gave them light by night , and a guard by day , and the sea that was a wall to defend them , and a devouri●g deep to their enemies ) received and initiated into gods cove 〈…〉 der the conduct of moses , as since they are wont to be ini●●●●ed by baptism : for when it is said , our fathers were baptized , it is not mea●t were baptized as si●ce proselytes were baptized among the jews , but as christians were baptized , even as when he sayth v. . and they did all eat the same spiritual meat , it is meant they did all eat the same spiritual meat , with us christians , that is , they had christ signified to them by the manna they did eat , as we eat christ spiritually in the lords supper . there 's no more an allusion to a custom of the jews in the one then in the other , bu a narration of what happened to them by gods providence , which the apostle interprets as signs to them of the same thing that baptism , and the lords supper are to us christians . and therefore i conceive that the scripture doth not make the customary use of baptizing proselytes by the jews as a thing from god , or eyed by christ as his pattern , but that the custom of baptizing proselytes was a tradition of the elders as the baptisms mentioned mark . , . and many other things they held . nor do i think it true that the customary use of the jews in baptizing proselytes and their children , was the pattern of christs institution of baptism , and the apostles and first churches practise . for according to the custom of the jews set down out of maimony and other jewish rabbins by mr. selden l. . de jure natur . ac gent. &c. cap. lib. . de syned . ebr. cap. . john baptist , and christs apostles should have baptized no native jews , but onely gentiles that embraced the faith , for after the baptism exod. . . the jews did not baptize jews but onely proselytes . whereas not onely john baptist , but also the apostles both before , and after the ascension of christ did baptize jews as well as gentiles upon their profession of repentance and faith in christ , as being agreeable to christs institution matth. . . . christ would not have avouched the baptism of john to be from heaven , and not from men , if it had been in imitation of and conformity to the jewish custom . . it is likely some where or other some intimation would have been given of that custom as the directory for christians in the use of baptism . . the institution and practise would have been conformable to it . but the contrary appears . . in their baptizing no infants of the gentiles at their first conversion : whereas the iews baptized onely the gentiles infants at their first proselyting , not the infants of those who were baptized in infancy . selden l. . de iure nat . &c. cap. . sed vero , non aliter atque israelitae ipsi filii proselytorum circumcidendi tantum erant nec quemadmodum parentes sive illi sive filiae baptizandae . nunquam enim solennis proselyti baptismus ille iterandus erat , nec in ipso qui primo baptizatus ( tamet si apostata factus in ritus iudaicos rediret ) nec in posteris . so that if it be true that the jewish baptism of proselytes is the pattern of the christian , then no infant of christian race is now to be baptized , but such as were born when the first gentile ancestors were converted . yea the jews were so far from baptizing any infants of proselytes born after the●r first convesion and baptism , that they resolved , as may be seen in selden ubi supra , and dr. hammond himself allegeth sect . . if a woman great with childe become a proselyte , and be baptized her childe needs not baptism when t is born . so that whereas the doctor brings the iewish custom as a pattern for christian baptism so as that it may be reasonably thought to belong to all that among the jews were usually baptized , his own arguing will prove that no infant of christians now descerded from christian ancestors , or born of parents formerly infidels after the parents were baptized , should be baptized , because it is against the jewish custom of baptizing any childe of a g●ntile infidel born after the parents were become proselytes , and baptized ; but secondly besides this first and main thing wherein the doctors patern is incorgruous to christian baptism there are many more disparities , which shew that the iewish baptism of pr●selytes was not the patern of christan baptism , as v. g. . the baptism of males must be also with circumcision and an offering . . there must be a kinde of court of three israelites skilfull in law to approve it or else it is voyd , dr. hammond sect . . among the iews , saith the gemara babyl● ▪ the infants used to be baptized upon the profession or confession of the house of judgment , the consistory , and the gloss saith , the triumviri are set over baptism and are necessary to it , and so they become to him a father . and maimonides , he must be baptized before the triumviri . . it was not to be on the sabbath or feast day , or in the night . . the body must be washed not in a made receptacle of waters as a vessel or font , but a natural one as a river , pool , well . . no part of the body but must be washed , if any scab , or blood hardned or filth f●●ck on the body so as that water could not come to the whole supersicies it was not accounted right baptism , yet they allowed garments which separated not the water from the body . . while the proselytes stood in the water the precepts of moses were recited by the three israelites skilfull in the law , and he was to take on him the observation of them all not one excepted , or else not accounted a proselyte . . a woman proselyte was placed in the water unto the neck by women which baptized her , while the three israelites stood after the manner observing the baptism , yet they were to turn away their faces , and go away when the woman came out of the water . . elder gentiles were made proselytes according to their own choice , younger as males before thirteen years and a day old , females before twelve and a day old according to the minde of their father or the court to which they were subject were admitted to judaism . the same right was of a natural foole . yet if a person under years when baptized did after as soon as he came to age renounce judaism , then he lost what privilege he had by baptism either by assent of the parent or the court . . the baptism did give them interest in the policy of the iews as other israelites , except some things peculiarly reserved to natural israelites . . yet a servant without his masters consent was not made free . . a blessing was to be used at baptism , but unless he were made free , not by the servant , but by the master . . a young one as an infant , whether taken or found , the israelite that possessed it might baptize it , either into the state of an ingenuous person , or freed person , or a servant . . they taught that a person baptized was so born again , that lying with his own natural sister was no incest . if the person be privily baptized , though before two , yet he was not counted a proselyte . all which may be seen in selden l. . de jure nat . & gent. juxta discipl . ebr. cap. , . . lib. . de syned . ebr. cap. . so that if the baptism of proselytes among the iews be the patern of christian baptism , baptizing of women must be by women , no one single bishop or presbyter must baptize , but three at least , there must be no private baptism , no baptizing in fonts or basons , no baptism without the whole body be washed , and so as that no filth or scab hinder the water from coming to the skin , there should be no infants baptized but at the first conversion of the parent , no iew should be baptized , none baptized in the night , on the sabbath , or other feast-day . in most of which christ , iohn the baptist , and the apostles varied from the iews , and therefore they took not their baptism for their patern , and if they did not make the jews baptism their patern in baptizing , neither are we to do so , but to follow the rule of christs institution , and the apostles practice , and not the iews use , which is not delivered in scripture , and much of it according to the superstition and dotages of their rabbins , and was not a meet religious sacrament , but a kinde of mixt rite partly religious , and partly civil , intitling to civil as well as ecclesiastical right , and done by persons civil rather than ecclesiastical , and so of a far different nature and use from the christian baptism . i think dr. hammond were he a bishop would censure such baptizing as the iews used as irregular , and then he may well bear with antipaedobaptists , though they reject his new conceit of making the iewish baptism our patern , and thereupon grounding the baptizing of infants . himself in his practical catechism lib. . sect. . allows of sprinkling , though the iewish custome was dipping , yea they so precisely require it , that it was not counted baptism , except the whole body were washed , and yet the doctor confesseth , that by christs appointment the baptized was to be dipt in water , i. e. according to the primitive ancient custom to be put under water , and the words [ i baptize thee in the name of the father , and of the son , and of the holy ghost ] he sayth , being by christ prescribed to his disciples must indispensably be used . so that when the doctor pleaseth , the jewish custom must be the patern , and when he likes it not , or the bishops canons otherwise order it , he may vary from it : in one thing which christ did not prescribe , as the doctor sayth , nor did the apostles that we finde so conceive it , yet christs prescription must be indispensably used , yet in another thing though appointed by christ , and according to the primitive ancient custom , a dispensation is allowed by the doctor , because later custom varies from christs appointment and the primitive ancient custom . such a lesbian leaden rule the doctor dictates by , fit for such as have resolved rather to forgo christs appointment than the bishops canons . it is conceived christ instituted the lords supper , somewhat like the jews postcoenium after the passover shall then the iews after-supper be the patern to the christians in the lords supper ? if so , the lords supper must be in private , in the night , administred by the master of the house , no more to receive than were usually at the passover , not many hundreds , &c. the apostle paul cor. . . in the use of the lords supper , sets down what he received from the lord , without mentioning the iewish usage , which shews he would have christians in that rite keep to what christ appointed , not what the iews practiced . and should it not be so in baptism also ? it is conceived the use of laying on of hands in ordination , and the term [ presbyters ] were from the iews : must we then or may we take rules from their practice in ordination , and not ty our selves to the apostles canons and practice ? one presbyter or doctor it 's sayd , according to the ancient manner of the iews , might create another , and sometime by an epistle or books an absent person might be created , as may be seen in selden de syned . ebrae . vet . l. . c. . must these usages of theirs be a patern to christians ? the use of excommunication came from the iews discipline into the christian , yet so as that the same manner & effect was not retained in both , sayth the same authorin the same book , c. . out of all which i infer that in the use of those rites which were taken from the iews , and brought into the christian discipline ; yet our rule according to which christians are to observe those rites , is to be taken from the words and example of christ and his apostles , which i doubt not to make it appear do no whit serve for dr. hammonds purpose . mr. marshall in his defence , p. , . thinks , this to be a good argument , that baptism belongs to infants as well as grown men , because , baptism being in use before as an ecclesiastical rite , though it begun to be a sacrament of divine institution when iohn was sent to baptize into the name of christ , there arespecial testimonies in the talmud , which declare that infants both of iews and gentiles were thus admitted , the male children by circumcision and baptism , the females by baptism , &c. especially since there is not the least hint given in the word that when it was thus advanced to be a sacrament it should not be applied to those persons to whom before it was , viz. infants as well as grown men . but i think mr. m. cannot finde in the talmud the iews or their infants were thus baptized since the time of giving the law , exod. . . i confess the gentiles infants were baptized as is abovesayd ; yet as mr. ms. learned men mentioned in his defence , pag. . confess that the baptism of iohn and of the pharisees was for a different end , so dr. lightfoot harmony part . . pag. . saith , the iews baptism was clean of another nature from iohns . and in the second part of his harmony on iohn . . pag. . he shews sundry differences between them , and cites out of the iewish doctors some of those differences before alleged ; which are enough to shew that our baptism is not to be regulated by their practice . sure it is a wonder to me that mr. m. engaged to reform the worship of god according to gods word , and in his sermon on chron. . . admiring that ever mortal man should dare in gods worship to meddle any jot further than the lord himself hath commanded , should yet in the point of infant-baptism follow the talmud quite besides the lords command . but i return to dr. hammond . sect . xxv . dr. hammonds elusion of matth. . . alleged against infant-baptism is refelled . sect . ubi suprà , he sayth thus , and in the new testament i cannot foresee any words that may come under suspition of doing so , but those of matth. , . goteach all nations , baptizing them , &c. and those words being duly weighed are far from doing so . for the phrase which is there used in the original is a singular one , not duly exprest by our english [ teach ] it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , make disciples , or receive into discipleship all nations , baptizing them in the name , &c. making this form of baptism their ceremony of receiving them . you may see the word explained in a parallel phrase john ▪ . the pharisees heard that jesus makes more disciples and baptizeth than john , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , where to make disciples and baptize is all one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , where the baptizing being immediately annexed to the making or receiving disciples , and the receiving disciples not supposing any precedent instruction , but , looking wholly on it as subsequent ( in like manner as in this place v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ teaching ] follows after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , baptizing ) all that are thus brought and received ad discipulatum , to be for the future instructed , and instituted in the christian faith , may surely be received by baptism , the ceremony which is there prescribed by christ , with which to receive disciples . answ. though i conceive dr , hammond to ascribe more power to the canons of prelates about the sacraments than is meet , being one who hath written in defence of the common-prayer book , yet by this allegation of matth. . . he seems tacitely to yield that if the words there include not infants under the discipled , then there is something in the new testament , which excludes infants from baptism , although he say , sect. . i do not believe or pretend that that precept of christ doth necessarily infer ( though it do as little deny ) that infants are to be baptized . but me thinks if the doctor will stand to his own words elsewhere , he must acknowledg that by the precept of baptizing , matth. . . infants are excluded . for the doctor sayth , sect. . christs institution makes dipping or sprinkling with water a sacrament ; which institution is matth. . . and therefore the doctor will have the words there indisp●nsably used in baptism ; and sect. . he sayth , baptism is a sacrament , that sacrament an institution of christ that institution not founded in any reason of immutable truth , but onely in the positive will of christ , and so that there is nothing considerable in this question , ( or any of this nature ) but how it was delivered by christ. and sect. . that which was done by the apostles , if it were not a rule for ever , yet was an effect of such a rule formerly given by christ , and interpretable by this practice to be so . and practical catech. lib. . sect . . he expounding christs institution , sayth , that the words import that the person baptized acknowledgeth , maketh profession of believing in three , delivers himself to three , as authors of his faith , and to be ruled by the direction of this master , and this he will have to be meant by baptizing into the name of the father , son , and holy spirit : whence i infer , that if baptism be a sacrament , and made so by christs institution , and that institution founded onely in his positive will , and the will of christ be that baptism be into the name of the trinity , and this is when the baptized makes profession of believing in three , to be ruled by them , and the apostles practice interprets christs rule ; no infant that doth not profess faith is baptized into the name of the trinity , nor was appointed to be baptized by christ , nor did the apostles baptize them , and therefore they are not baptized according to christs institution , and so no sacrament to them . yea , if the positive will of christ be the reason of baptism , they usurp upon christs prerogative , who baptize otherwise than christ hath appointed & then if the precept of christ doth not necessarily infer infantbaptsm ( which the doctor ingenuously acknowledgeth ) it doth by manifest consequence deny it , sith he forbids that to be done otherwise han he hath appointed , when he hath determin'd how it should be done . the doctor when he sayth above , the words [ i baptize into the name of the father , son , and holy ghost ] must be indispensably used ; me thinks by the same reason should conceive christs institution should be unalterably used in baptizing those onely whom he hath appointed to be baptized . but let us consider what shift the doctor makes to elude the force of christs institution , matth. . . that it may not be thought to exclude infants from baptism . i grant that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is best rendred [ make disciples ] and like it well , that he acknowledgeth [ makes disciples , and baptizeth , john . . ] is all one with [ making disciples , baptizing them , matth. . . ] but i deny , . that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is well paraphrased by [ receive into discipleship all nations , baptizing them in the name , &c. making this form of baptism their ceremony of receiving them ] for by it the making disciples is made the same with receiving into discipleship or receiving disciples , and baptism the ceremony of receiving into discipleship , which is as truly the act of the baptized thereby professing or avouching his discipleship . . that the making or receiving discipleship supposeth not any precedent instruction , but looks wholly on it as subsequent . for . that which in matthew is expressed by , go ye therefore and make disciples all nations , is in mark . . go ye into all the world , and preach the gospel to every creature ; which shews how they should disciple all nations . now they who are made disciples by preaching the gospel are made disciples by precedent instruction . ergo , the making or receiving disciples matth. . . supposeth precedent instruction . . such as the making disciples was ioh. . . such is the making disciples , mat. . . for by the doctors confession they are all one . but that was by preaching , as is plain concerning iohn , matth. . , , , . and concerning the apostles , mat. . , , . ergo. whence , . i further argue , that way the apostles were to disciple all nations by which they were to disciple the lost sheep of the house of israel , but that was by preaching , ergo , discipling supposeth precedent instruction . . from the use and notation of the word , which is so to teach as that they learn , and so is used matth. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is rendred [ instructed ] by our last translators , and can be no otherwise rendred than [ made a disciple by teaching ] so acts . . it is sayd , having preacht the gospel to that city , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and having taught or made many disciples . whence , . it may appear how the apostles understood the precept of christ to preach the gospel to persons , and thereby make them disciples . . a disciple and a believer appear to be the same by comparing matth. . . with mark . , . for as the way of making disciples is more fully expressed by preaching the gospel ; so the disciple to be baptized is expressed by [ the believer ] which is put before baptism . nor is it against this that after baptism they are to be taught , matth. . . for that teaching is expressed to be the teaching the observation of all that he commanded : but the teaching that makes disciples is the preaching the gospel . so that the plain order and meaning of christs words is this , that . the apostles should not stay onely within the land of israel , but go into all the world. . that they should by preaching the gospel , declaring that jesus was the christ , make them disciples , that is , taught concerning christ , or believers in him . . that they should baptize them . . that they should then teach them to observe all his commands . now infants are not made disciples by preaching the gospel , therefore by christs institution not appointed to be baptized , and therefore are baptized without his warrant , and consequently unlawfully . what dr. hammond sayth sect . . were it all granted him , yet it would no whit avail to prove that an infant may be a disciple appointed by christ to be baptized . for let putting to school be as early as the doctor will imagine , yet none is put to school till he doth know his teacher , and so none is christs disciple in the scripture-language till he know jesus to be christ , and take him for his lord , which infants being not capable of , they are not disciples , nor to be baptized according to christs appointment . what he adds s. , . is not right . for . it is not true , that a disciple and a proselyte are perfectly all one . for a proselyte notes one that is by birth an alien from the common-wealth of israel , and comes to the israelites to own their god , and be part of their policy , not to be taught but to enjoy privileges with other jews , whether civil or ecclesiastical . there is no mention of the disciples of the priests , but of the pharisees and sadduces : but a disciple of christ is one that owns christ for his teacher and lord onely for spiritual benifits . nor doth the holy ghost at any time call christians christs proselytes but his disciples , that we might not confound the notions of these terms . and though the origination of the word [ proselyte ] be from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to come to , and christ saith , suffer little children to come to me , and this infers their capacity of proselytism , and the next words [ for of such is the kingdom of god ] suppose them particularly qualified for it , yet that coming and imagined pro●elytism being onely for ablessing by prayer , and laying on of hands , not to be made disciples or baptized , this will not prove them capable of being made disciples according to christs appointment till by hearing the gospel they own christ as their master . the like may be said of the entering into covenant , deut. . . which though in some sense it should be yielded , that infants may enter into covenant , that is , by their parents act engaging them under a curse or oath to own god as theirs , in which sense the posterity then unborn did enter into covenant , v. . yet this is insufficient to prove , that such an entering into covenant makes infants disciples or subjects of baptism according to christs appointment . for in it such a discipling is injoyned as is by preaching the gospel , and they onely are disciples to be baptized who are believers , and they onely are appointed to be baptized who in their own persons do enter into covenant , or engage themselves to be christs followers . sect . xxvi . dr. hammond neither from cor. . . nor from sayings of ancients proves that the apostles baptized infants . hereto dr. hammond adds , to confirm his opinion of christs intention to include infants in the institution of baptism for all nations , and not to exclude them from it , the passage cor. . . in which he imagines is a remain and footstep of the apostles practice of baptizing infants . . the practice of the first and purest ages of the church , which received infants to baptism , and either by so doing testifie the apostolical usage transcribed by them , or else affirm , that they received it by tradition from the apostles . in both which how he is mistaken remains to be shewed . first he sets down this , which he cais a brief paraphrase , though it be too large for a paraphrase , and takes in more than he can with any colour shew to have any thing in the text answering to it . his words of paraphrase of corinth . . , , . are these . vers. . if any christian husband hath an heathen wife , and she be desirous to continue with him , he ought not to put her away , unbelief being no sufficient cause of divorce by the law of christ. vers. . and so in like manner , for the christian wife that is married to an infidel , if he be desirous to live with her , let her by no means separate from him . vers. . for ( beside the command of christ , matth. . . which obligeth to this ) other advantages there are of the believers living with the unbeleiver , worth considering . for by this means it hath oft come to pass that the unbelieving party hath been brought to the faith by the company and conversation of the believer ; and considering the efficacy of good example , pet. . . and seasonable exhortation and instruction on presumption of the great zeal ( and consequent endeavours and diligence ) that by the law of christianity the husband will have to the eternal good of any so near him , as a wife is , there is great reason of hope that still it may be so , that their living together may produce this effect in the unbeliever , and the intuition of that ( more than possible ) effect may reasonably move the christian party not to forsake the other voluntarily . and this one consideration , viz. the probability that the conversation of the believer pet. . . should gain , i. e. bring the unbeliever to the faith , and the reasonable presumption that it will be so , is the reason why the young children of christians , which cannot as yet be deemed believers , are yet admitted to baptism , because by their living in the family with christian parents they probably , and by the obligation lying on the parents ought to be brought up in the faith , and kept from heathen pollutions , and the church requiring and receiving promise from the parents ) doth reasonably presume they will. and upon this ground it is , that though the children of christians are , yet the children of heathens are not admitted to baptism . answer . this paraphrase is many ways faulty , and far from the meaning of the apostle . . it puts in many things as explicatory of the text , to which there is nothing answerable in the apostles words . for , . there is nothing that answers to [ by this means it hath oft come to pass ] nor , . to these words [ by the company and conversation of the believer ] yea the term [ believer ] is quite omitted by the apostle , which considering the term [ unbeliever ] twice expressed seems to have been done wittingly , that it might not be taken , that he ascribed the sanctification to the faith of the one party . surely when men specially in arguments place the force of a reason in a term they use not to omit it , as the apostle doth here , but to express it remarkably , and with emphasis . . all the words [ and considering the efficacy of good example , pet. . . and seasonable exhortation and instruction on presumption of the great zeal ( and consequent endeavours and diligence ) that by the laws of christianity the husband will have to the eternal good of any so near to him as a wife is , there is great reason of hope that it still may be so , that their living together may produce this effect in the unbeliever , and the intuition of that ( more than possibly ) effect , may reasonably move the christian party not to forsake the other voluntarily ] are added without any thing in the least intimated by the words of the text , but the contrary , even according to his exposition , who makes the term [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sanctified ] refer to some past known examples , and therfore the forepart of the verse hath not at all that which answers to [ on presumption , &c. there is great reason of hope , &c. ] which import a contingent event for the future , not a thing past , which is always certain . . the term [ young children of christians which cannot as yet be deemed believers ] is more and otherwise than is in the text , which hath onely [ your children ] which is not restrained to infancy , nor doth it appear , that [ your ] doth imply they were considered as christians , so as that there should be this construction [ your children are holy , because they are children of christians ] distinguishingly from infidels , but [ your children ] that is , the children of you that doubt , who have had unbelieving husbands and wives , and have had or may have children by them . so that the term [ your ] onely notes the particularity and individuation of the persons , and if considered in any respect besides , it is their doubting condition , or their having unbelieving yoke-fellows . . there is nothing to answer those words [ because by their living in the family with christian parents they probably , and by the obligation lying on the parents ought to be brought up in the faith , and kept from heathen pollutions , ( and the church requiring and receiving promise from the parents ) doth reasonably presume they will ] . nor is there any thing answering to these words [ your children ] which his own paraphrase applies to christians children . so that the doctors paraphrase is beyond measure culpable in respect of addition . . it is blameable also in omitting that which the text expresly and emphatically mentions , to wit , the terms [ wife , husband ] when he sayth , [ the unbelieving party hath been brought to the faith by the company and conversation of the believer , and after , the probability that the conversation of the believer should bring the unbeliever to the faith ] which may be meant of a companion , brother , father , mother , neighbour . . there is much faultiness in quite altering the importance of the apostles words , by substituting instead of were or should be ] in the apostles words [ ought to be , they will be ] in the paraphrase . which is the more blameable in that himself sect. pag. . doth more truly retain the force of those expressions in the apostle , when he sayth , [ the method of the apostle must needs be this , unless there were , &c. ' ●would certainly follow that their children were unclean ] so that the pretended brief paraphrase of the apostles words is very faulty , far from the rule of a paraphrase , and instead of explaining doth quite pervert the meaning of the words . . for many other reasons the exposition of the doctor cannot be right . for . in his paraphrase of the apostles resolution v. . he puts [ ought ] and of v. . [ let her by no means ] as if the apostle did make it a necessary duty , that they must continue together , whereas the apostle answerably to their doubt doth onely resolve them of the lawfulness of their continuing together , not of the necessity of it , and so v. . is a reason of the lawfulness of it notwithstanding their doubt , which appears from the resolution v. . [ if the unbeliever will depart let him depart ] which cannot be expounded otherwise than thus , you are not bound to stay as you are not bound to cause her to depart or to relinquish him , you are at your liberty . for the very next words [ a brother or sister is not under bondage in such cases ] do shew that the resolution was of liberty , not of duty , contrary to the doctors paraphrase . now that resolution v. . is of the same form with his determination v. , . . he makes the resolution to be of a duty v. , . yet makes v. . to be a motive of the will , when he saith , [ may reasonably move ] as if the apostle were not deciding a doubt , but perswading the will , and that from such a thing as cannot be reason of duty or liberty , but as it is by him expounded a perswasive to win on the affections , not to settle the judgment , and yet p. . he saith , [ the unbeliever having been sanctified by the believer is used as an argument why they should live together . ] . he puts [ unbelieving husband v. . ] as if he were another than he that is mentioned v. . for v. . the unbelieving husband was at that present an unbeliever : but according to his sense expounding v. . thus , [ it hath oft come to pass that the unbelieving party hath been brought to the faith by the company and conversation of the believer ] the unbelleving husband must be meant of one that was once an unbeliever , not so then . now then the apostle should after this exposition give a reason why the present believing wife need not leave her husband , because another unbelieving husband by another believing wife hath been brought to the faith . which wherein it could tend to any satisfaction for them that doubted whether they might lawfully live together because of the present unbelief of the yoke-fellow i see not . . such a reason will appear the more unlikely to be satisfactory , because as it hath often happened that the unbeliever hath been won by the wife , so it hath often happened to the contrary , and it is likely the persons whom he resolved had complained , that they had small hopes of their husbands conversion , and so the reason of their living together from experience would be more likely to be retorted back thus , you perswde us to live together , you tell us we may , because it often comes to pass that the unbeliever is brought to the faith : but our experience is to the contrary , we see many not converted , and our own are obstinate and hardned , and therefore this reason doth disswade us , and resolve us that we may not live with him . . hence another exception is against this exposition , that it makes the apostle to resolve them of their duty or liberty by that which was a meer contingent event which might be or not be . for this exposition makes the reason of their living together to be from what had hapened & might be : whereas a contingent event is impertinent to that end , to say , we may lawfully do such a thing , because its likely such a good effect may follow . a contingent event is unfit to resolve of the lawfulness or unlawfulness of a thing without some other rule , things being unlawfull or lawfull not according to disagreement from or agreement to gods will of purpose what shall be , but his will of command what he requires to be omitted or done . besides this contingent event here was uncertain as appears v. . what knowest thou ? implies , thou canst not tell whether thou shalt save thy husband ? perhaps thou mayst . nor doth the apostle mention any promise it should be so , but mentions it onely as a contingent event that might be or not be . . besides it is from such an event as is impertinent to the lawfulness or unlawfulness of living together . for the past conversion of others and the future conversion of our own yoke-fellows is meerly extrinsecal to our duty or liberty , though it be much to our conveniency , and therefore it is fitly urged v. . after the resolution of the judgment v. , , . is there any shew of reason why i should live with my own unbelieving husband , because anothers unbelieving husband was converted by her , or because there is great reason of hope it will be so with mine ? this would intimate that future events make our present state or acts lawfull or unlawfull , which is somewhat like the turks conceit who judged , that pleaseth god which succeeds prosperously , and that to displease , which fals out unhappily . . according to this exposition , v. . should be the same argument with v. . and so there should be an unnecessary repetition of the same argument . . by this exposition the sanctifying of an unbeliever should be ascribed to a woman , whereas ( though i deny not that she is said to save , v. ● . to win , pet. . . to convert , james . . ) sanctifying is never ascribed to any but god and his spirit . so cor. . . ye are sanctifyed by the spirit of our god. . the word [ holy ] is expounded in a sense no where else found , nor is there any reason of that sense by way of allusion or otherwise given by the doctor , though according to him a known fact is expressed which had another appellation used commonly even in that epistle , ch . . , , , , . & . . for he expounds [ holy ] by [ are admitted to baptism ] and so makes the apostle in narration of a fact to use a term to express what was in his conceit well known to them by a term not imagined to note the thing elsewhere , when there was another term [ baptized ] used in the same epistle and familiar to them . . he makes the apostle to infer the lawfulness or duty of living together from that contingent event , which might with like probability be brought to pass by another than the believing yoke-fellow , even by the endeavour of a father , mother , brother , sister , companion , especially a preacher of the gospel . so that if this reason were of force to conclude husband and wife might live together , because one may bring the other to the faith , the reason might be as good for father and daughter , son and mother , brother and sister , companions , preacher and people to couple or live together , because it hath been and there is great reason to hope one may convert the other . . according to his exposition the apostles speeches were not right . for according to him the meaning should be unless there were cohabiting , and there had been an unbelieving husband brought to the faith by the wife , and vice versa the corinthians children could not reasonably be presumed to be admitted to baptism . . upon this ground that an unbelieving husband was brought to the faith by the wife and vice versa , and there is great reason it might be so for the future the children of believing corinthians unequally matched were admitted to baptism . himself pag. . saith . this must needs be the method of the apostles arguing , unless there were some hope , that the 〈◊〉 of a believer should be a means to bring an unbeliever to t●● saith ' tw●●l● certainly follow , their children were unclean , that is not admitted to baptism . now i think all paedobaptists will disclaim as manifestly false this proposition , that the believing corinthians young children were not or could not be , or it could not be reasonably presumed they should be admitted to baptism , till the unbelieving yoke-fellow were converted , or without hopes or reasonable presumption , that he might be won to the faith by the believer . it is such a toy as i cannot imagine they will own when they discern it . if they do they must quite change their plea and practise about infant baptism , their plea being from the imagined federal holines of the childe of one believer without consideration of the others present or future faith , and their practise being to baptize infants of one believer , though the other parent died or should die in professed unbelief . and for the other proposition it is a like false , that whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , note as much as hoc . posito , upon this ground as the doctor expresseth it , or to be an adverb of time noting when their children were holy it is most false , that upon the ground of hopes of cohabiting and the conversion of the unbelieving , yoke-fellow , and experience of what happened , the corinthian believers yonger children no● deemed yet believers , were admitted to baptism , or were reasonably presumed to be admitted , or that they were then admitted to baptism when the unbelieving husband was converted , or likely to be converted by the believing wife and not before . this proposition i make no question other paedobaptists will disclaim , nor need i any other proof against his sense than his own words against another interpretation brought in as the anabaptists , though i know none that so interpret it . i use his own words pag. . sect . . mutatis mutandis . now i demand of this pretended interpretation , whether it be possible saint pauls argument should conclude in this sense ? suppose the corinthian parents of these younger children had been one a believer , and the other an unbeliever , could it of them be concluded , if they did not upon the hope of doing good one upon the other cohabit , their children could not be holy by designation of the church in baptism , to which when they are brought by the congregation and admitted by the minister they are thus consecrated and devoted to god ? this were absolutely to confine the churches designations to holiness and the ministers admissions thereto to none but the children of believers , as if the childe of parents whereof one is a believer were not thus holy , and admitted to baptism without experience of what hath been done in converting the unbeliever by the believer , and hopes it should be so . it is known that admission to baptism depends upon chrsts institution , not upon such accidental conditions as is the cohabiting of the parents , the experience of the converting some unbeliever by the believing yoke-fellow , and hopes so of theirs . . unto all these i add , that i never read or heard any expositor antient or modern so expounding , as this doctor or dictator doth , nor do i think he can shew any . sure i am augustin . tom . . de pec● . merito & remiss . c. . saith , ac per hoc et illa sanctificatio cujuscunque modi sit , quam in filiis fidelium esse dixit apostolus ad istam de baptismo & p●ccati origine vel remissione quaestionem omninò non pertinet . but let us consider what dr. hammond brings for this paraphrase , sect. . he speaks thus , that this is the true importance of the apostles words , and force of his arguing doth for the former part of it appear evident . first , by the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hath been sanctified , which must needs refer to some past known examples and experiences of this kinde , or else there could be no reasonable account given of the apostles setting it in the praeter-tense . answ. as dr. hammonds paraphrase expresseth it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should signifie not onely that an unbelieving husband hath been sanctified , but also that there is hope they will , and so it should note , not onely some example past , but also some to come , of which there can be a less reasonable account given than of putting it in the present-tense in english. but sayth he , it is put in the praeter-tense in greek . answ. i presume the doctor knows that enallage or change of tense is frequent in languages , even in the greek , though it abound in tenses above other languages . in the same epistle c. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the present-tense is put for the future , even in the same verse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is rendred by dr. hammond himself , else were your chidren unclean , so that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must be put for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & so an enallage either of tense or mood , or both . and in the very next vers . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is manifestly put in the praeter-tense for the present , as all interpreters i know render it , & the same enallage or change of tense camerarius conceives in the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and , which is chiefest , this sense seems to be●it it best , there being no plainer and clearer than this , therefore the believer may live with the unbelieving yoke-fellow ; because the husband though an infidel , yet is to his own wife , in respect of her , and to her conjugal use , a● if he were sanctified . but if it be in the praeter-tense , yet it may be understood of a past thing yet continued , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , john . . notes an act still continued in force . so that notwithstanding the doctors conceit , yet there may be a very reasonable account given without understanding it of an example of another person sanctified heretofore by another wife , which is very far from the apostles meaning , as i shew before . secondly , sayth he , by the phrase 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by or through the wife . this the preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so ordinarilly signifies , that it cannot need to be farther testified , ( in this notion it is that we here take it ) whereas the notion which by opposers is here affixt to it , that it should signifie to ( that to which is a sign of the dative-case ) [ sanctified to the wife , ( as meat to the believer ) made lawfull to her to live with ] is never once found to belong to it , in the new testament , nor can with any tolerable congruity or grammatical analogy be affixt to it . all the places that are produced for this sense are commonly mistaken . so matth. . . [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is not fecerunt ei , they have done to him , but on him or against him : so as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is an ordinary acception of it . so acts . . there is no name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it is not [ given unto men ] but among men : and that is an ordinary notion of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for among , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is god among us ? and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , christ among us , and many the like . so cor. . . god hath called us , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : it is not to , as the note of a dative-case , but unto peace , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is again taken for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . so ga●l : . . to reveal his own son , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : it is not [ to me ] but [ by or through me to others ] as it follows , that i might preach him . and when it there follows , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it is not [ to but again among the gentiles ] and pet. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is add unto your saith virtue , &c. in the notion of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , unto your faith , or over and above that , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , superadd virtue , or fortitude , or constancy , that which in this time of persecution they stood so much in need of . and so still the rendring it [ to the wife ] will be without any one example , and the turning it quite into another phrase , as if it were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , without 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; which to do without any necessity or reason ( save onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to serve the opposers turn upon the place , and support his false opinion , must needs be very unreasonable . answ. i subscribe to this last speech : but all that the doctor saith makes me not to recede from the rendering of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , cor. . . [ to ] as noting the dative case , and being redundant . not out of any necessity to serve my turn : for if it be read [ in the wife and expounded as beza doth annot. in locum respectu uxoris , in respect of the wife , expounding [ is or hath been sanctified in the wife ] thus , hath been or is enioyed in coniugal use lawfully in respect of his wife , it will as well serve my turn . and in this sense 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is as much as ergà towards , apud with , and is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the sense that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are used , cor. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . but it will not serve the doctors turn unless he can prove that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] must be renderd [ by ] and notes the instrument , yea and [ by the wife ] must signify [ by the company and conversation of the believer ] which supplement is not yet proved , no● do i think can be proved to be necessary . the reason why i still adhere to the reading of [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to ] is , . because it seems to me the fairest , easiest , and most congruous sense thus to expound it . the believer may abide with the unbelieving yoke-fellow . for though he be an unbeliever , and so in himself unsanctified , yet in or to the wife or his wife he is as if he were sanctified , it 's all one in respect of lawfull conjugal use as if he were sanctified . . because , though the doctor deny it , yet i aver the notion of [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for to as a sign of the dative case ] is found more than once in the new testament , and may with good congruity and grammatical analogy be affixt to it . of the which places the first he brings cannot be eluded . . because the same speech which is mat. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is mark . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and rendered by beza in the former place fecerunt ei they did to him . . whereas he saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 on him or against him , and that this is an ordinary acception of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i grant that it is an ordinary acception to use 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but not in the sense he here conceives , to wit as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes [ on or against a person . ] it had been meet the doctor should have given at least one instance of such a construction , which i do not yet believe he can do . however if he could , yet me thinks it should satisfie that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , notes no more than 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and is a sign of the dative case , because mark , who seems to have abbreviated matthew , so expresseth it ; and the common use of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when it notes dealings of man to man whether good or bad is usually expressed by the dative case : as matth. . , & . . & . . & . , . & . , . there is another instance which i conceive cannot be eluded , to wit , col. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which was preached in every creature . where , . there is no other sense than that of the dative case that hath any tolerable conguity or grammatical analogy affixt to it . mr. den's conceit of preaching the gospel in the sun , moon , &c. is so wild that i presume , it will be easily rejected . for let men imagine the most they can of gods grace discernible in the creature , yet the gospel in which christians hope and of which paul was a minister is not discernible thereby . nor is here any place for those conceits of putting [ in ] for on , against , among , over and above or the like ] for the use of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to preach , is commonly with a dative case of the object , as cor. . . pet. . . acts . . & . . luke . . i deny not but tim. . . it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . but our translators have there renderd it [ unto the gentiles ] the vulgar [ praedicatum est gentibus ] beza [ praedicatus est gentibus ] as if there it noted onely the dative case . and if there it should be [ among the gentiles ] yet it cannot be so col. . . because the object is in the singular number : but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when it is for [ among ] is joyned still to a noune of the plural . it is true thes. . . it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but unto you is no more than to you , and shews not onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 also notes the same with the dative case without either preposition . . that which puts , this thing out of all doubt the phrase col. . . answers ( as beza camerarius , piscator , &c. conceive , and me thinks none should deny ) to that mark . . where our lord chrst bids 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , preach the gospel to every creature , and there that which was expressed by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 col. . . is expressed onely by the dative case without it mark . . nor do i yet conceive but that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , acts . is better renderd [ to men ] than among men . ] . because the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the several voyces and other verbs of giving have most regularly and constantly a dative of the person after them , as both grammarians in their syntaxes teach , & many instances in the new testament prove , as acts . . & . . & . . . & . , , , , . besides many more there and throughout the sacred writings . . because if it had been [ among men ] it had been to be placed after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , other ; for so the sense would have been clear , there is no other name among men given , but being placed after given , it is to be expounded as referred to given , not to other , and so must not be read among men , but to men . . it seems to me not good sense , or not true , that christ was a name given among men : for though he were among men , yet he was given from above . . to all which i add the words of beza annot. in act. apost . c. . v. . inter homines , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hebr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beadam , id est , hominibus ut rectè convertit vet us interpres , & ireneus quoque lib. . cap. . sicut insra . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , non aliud declarat quàm 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . camerarius renders it , attributum hominibus . and for the other text gal. . . me thinks the doctors exposition makes the apostle tautologize ineptly , when he expounds when it pleased god to reveal his son , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not to me , but by or through me to others . for what is it to reveal his son by him or through him to others , but to preach the gospel to them ? and is it not then to tautologize to say , when it pleased god , that i should preach the son of god to others that i might preach the gospel ? can preaching the gospel be fitly sayd to be the end or consequent of preaching the son of god which is all one with preaching the gospel ? and for pet. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , there is no reason to imagine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be put for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , sith the simple and compound are usually put with the dative after them , as cor. . . gal. . . and in other authors . nor do i finde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in any author , and what the doctor observes , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes superadde , it rather confirms it , that as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes over , so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes to ; no● is the doctor i suppose ignorant of that rule in grammar , verba addendi , supplendi regunt dativum . besides these i have alleged in the first part of this review s. . pag. . out of the septuagint . deut. . . kings . . plain passages of putting 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so as to note the dative case , with the speeches of some learned men , whereto i add that psal. . . that which the septuagint hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the apostle hath ephes. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which i take to be more than enough to refute the doctors speech that the notion wherein 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to , which is a sign of the dative caese is never once found to belong to it in the new testament , nor can with any tolerable congruity or grammatical analogy be affixt to it , and that he talks ad randum , when he intimates , that by co●struing it so , cor. . . ther 's a turning it quite to another phrase to serve the turn upon the place . the doctor goes on thus . thirdly , this appears most irrefragably , by the express words added on this argument , v. . where [ the unbelievers having been sanctified by the believer ] ( used as an argument why they should live together ) is farther explained by these words of an undoubted perspicuous sense ; for what knowest thou o wife whether thou shalt save thy husband ? or how knowest thou o husband whether thou shalt save thy wife ? where the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , save . which ordinarily signifies to reduce , as it is pet. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to gain ) to repentance from heathenism or wicked life is set parallel to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , sanctifying , and makes it clear what was meant by it . answ. however the doctor conceive , yet doth it not appear to me probably , much less irrefragably by express words , that v. . is added further as an explanation of the words , v. . the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified in the wife . for , . though some conceive v. . to be put parenthetically as grotius , and that v. . belongs to the matter of v. , , . yet beza , piscator , and others conceive that v. . hath reference to the words v. . god hath called us to peace , that is , to live peaceably together , & as an encouragement thereto v. . is added : none that i know besides the doctor makes v. . to explain the forepart of v. . . nor is there likelihood that the apostle doth use v. . as an explanation of the forepart of v. . it being not his wont to express a thing obscurely , and than presently to express it more plainly , or to use unnecessary repetitions in such short resolutions as are here , especially there being not any thing mystical in it , but matter of fact . . if he had made v. . an explanation of the words v. . the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified in the wife and vice versa , he would have usdd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as rom. . . or some such like term ; but he useth cor. . . the expression 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for how knowest thou ? which plainly sheweth it to be a further argument to move them to live together , not an explanation of a former speech : for [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for ] is a particle shewing it to be a further reason of it . . it to me appears irrefragably , because according to the doctors exposition v. . doth not explain the forepart of v. . for according to him the word [ hath been sanctified ] must needs refer to some past known examples and experiments of converting of other unbelieving yoke . fellows by the believing parties , or else sayth he , there could be no reasonable account given of the apostles setting it in the praeter-tense . but v. . for what knowest thou o wife whether thou shalt save thy husband ? or how knowest thou o man whether thou shalt save thy wife ? mentions a thing to be , and that as a possible but not certain event , and that concerning one that is an unbeliever . now that the words mentioning a possible uncertain event concerning others should explain the words that speak of a thing past about others is out of my reach : surely it seems to me ridiculous to paraphrase , v. . the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified in the wife , thus , for what knowest thou o wife whether thou shalt save thy husband ? and therefore i take the doctors conceits in this to be his dotage . the doctor adds , sect. . which being once yielded to be the true meaning of the first part , there will then be little reason to doubt but that this of the admission of the christian children to baptism on this score , is the importance of the later part , that and no other being it , which exactly accords with the former reasoning , and it being not imaginable , that this should be here added in that argumentative stile [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whereas ( or for ) elsewere , &c. if it were not an enforcing of the foregoing position thus proved by him . answ. it is true the style is argumentative , and [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , else were ] shews the latter part of the verse , cor. . . to be an inforcing of the foregoing position of the same verse asserted , i say not proved by him . but that this exposition [ else were your children unclean , that is , not admitted to baptism , but now they are holy , that is , admitted to christian baptism ] exactly accords with the former reasoning yielded , so as that the doctors paraphrase being once yielded to be the true meaning of the first part there will be little reason to doubt but that this , of the admission of the christian children to baptism on this score is the importance of the later part , is so far from having any colour of truth , that in my apprehension the doctors exposition makes the apostles words are nam sine calce , sand without lime , that is without connexion . for what shew of connexion is there in this consequence , if some other unbelieving yoke-fellow had not been converted by the faith , diligence and conversation of the believing party that then was , then the children of you who are believers , but begotten or brought forth by one that yet is an unbeliever had not been admitted to christian baptism in infancy : but now , that is upon this score that some former unbelieving yoke-fellows have been brought to the faith of christ by the faith , conversation and diligence of the believer , they have been admitted to baptism ? according to the tenour of this reasoning these propositions should be included in the apostles argument . the children of a believing yoke-fellow who is joyned to an unbeliever had not been admitted to christian baptism , if some other believing yoke-fellow had not been brought to the faith . the children of a believer by a unbelieving yoke-fellow have been admitted to christian baptism by reason that it hath been usual that other believers have brought the unbeliever to the faith . whence will follow . . that at the first conversion of a people , at whieh time there is no experiment of such events of the believing yoke-fellows bringing the infidel to the faith , then the infants of the believer were not admitted to christian baptism : which is directly contrary to the jewish batizing infants of proselytes , which is onely at first conversion , which yet the doctor will have the patern of our christian baptism . . that the doctor derives a title to baptism of this believers infant children from the diligence and happy success which another believer hath had , which is a thing meerly extrinsecal to the institution of baptism . for where did ever christ say , baptize those or their children who are yoke-fellows to unbelievers , for some other believing yoke-fellows have had good success in converting their yoke-fellows to the faith ? i can hardly forbear to call such reasoning à baculo ad angulum . on the other side , the doctors exposition makes the children of the believer joyned to the unbeliever not capable of christian baptism , if there had not been some experiment of a believer bringing to the faith the unbelieving yoke-fellow , and some hopes that the present unbeliever would become a christian by the diligence of the other yoke fellow , which would exclude the believers childe from baptism whose yoke-fellow is deceased in unbelief , and so the conversion of that person is hopeless . so that what ever pretences are made for infant-baptism , no children ( according to the doctors exposition ) of a believer can be rightly baptized without proof of such experiment of the converting of the unbeleiving yoke-fellow by the believer ; it would not suffice that the conversion be by a minister , &c. now this being rare and hard to prove , it will certainly make questionable , if not void most of the pretended infant baptisms that are . confident i am that no paedobaptist ancient or modern besides the doctor ever asserted paedobaptism on this score , which is the onely ground , if the doctors exposition of the apostle be right . the ancients did admit to baptism any ones childe whether pagans or believers being brought to them , as i shew in my examen part . . sect . . but i need say no more to refute this exposition being the most unlikely of all that i have hitherto met with : he tels us sect. . what is thought fit to be brought for the eluding and avoiding this interpretation will be most fitly considered anon in answer to the anabaptists plea. answ. the falsly so called anabaptists have not allowed dr. jeremiah taylour to make their plea , nor do they all , if any of them frame their plea as he lays it , yet it is shewed above , that the reply dr. hammond makes to overthrow their pretended answer overthrows his own exposition . but he goes on , mean while for the confirming of it , it may be remembered , what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , holy is known to signify in the sacred dialect , not onely an inherent , but a relative holiness , being separate or set apart to god , discriminated from common ordinary things , or persons , and as that belongs to higher degrees of separation , the office of a prophet or the like , so the lowest degree of it is that of being received to be members of the church , into which all are initiated by baptism . and accordingly , all visible professors , and not onely those that are sincerely such , are in ezra . . the holy seed , and in the epistles of the apostles called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , holy . answ. this being all granted confirms not dr. hammonds exposition , now they are holy that is admitted to christian baptism . the doctor knows its no good argument à genere ad speciem affirmative , the children are holy that is set a part for god , discriminated from common ordinary things or persons , ergo they are set apart by the special way of baptism . and it being granted that all visible professors , and not onely those that are sincerely such are in ezra . . the holy seed , and in the epistles of paul called holy ( though that term ezra . . hath a far different notion , as i shew in this review antipaed . part . . sect . , . from what the doctor imagines ) yet till the doctor prove infants to be visible professors he hath not confirmed , that the taking of [ holy cor. . . ] for [ infants admitted to baptism ] is agreeable to the apostles language . he adds sect. . and secondly how the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , unclean , is used by st. peter , acts . . for those that must not ( as he conceived ) be received into the church , as [ god 's having cleansed ] is gods reputing them fit to be partakers of that privilege . whereby it appears how fitly receiving and not receiving to baptism may be expressed by those phrases . answ. i deny not the fitness of the expressing receiving and not receiving to baptism by the terms of holy and unclean , if the holy ghost had so thought good . but su●e the doctor is mistaken in the notion of unclean , acts . . for it is plain from acts . . that an unclean person is in that place one that was not onely out of the church , but also one that a jew conceived he might neither go into , nor eat with him , yea though he were a proselyte of the gate , and owned the god of israel . now then if the same notion of unclean and holy be cor. . . as is acts . . an unclean person is one that a man may not go into , nor eat with . which applied to infants is ridiculous ; else if the unbelieving yoke-fellow had not been sanctified , that is , brought to the faith by the conversation and diligence of the believer your children had been unclean , that is , such as they might not go in to , nor eat with them , but now their in●ants are holy , such as they might go in to and eat with them . thirdly , sayth he , how the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is ordinarily to sanctifie , doth among the jews ( whence this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is taken ) as when the high priests washing his hands and his feet ten times on the day of expiation is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ten sanctifications , joma , cap. . sect . . which being the word which denotes the washing some part of the body , and distinguished in use from the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is the immersion of the whole body , may perhaps be an intimation , that the primitive baptisms were not always immersions of the whole body , but that sprinkling of some part the literal importance of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sanctifications might be sufficient . answ. if this reason were good , it would rather confirm this exposition [ the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified by the wife , that is , the unbelieving husband hath been baptized by the wife or washed ] than this , the children are baptized , for they are no● sayd to be sanctified , but to be holy . and then the apostle relates it as a thing oft used among christians , that believing wives did baptize or wash unbelieving husbands : which so expounded is a plain testimony for womens baptism of their own unbelieving husbands , & so hath better ground from this text than infant baptism . what the doctor draws in besides the business , to put some colour on their sprinkling instead of baptism , is but a fig-leaf too narrow to cover the nakedness of their practice . the doctor himself pag. . makes the baptism which was a jewish solemnity , the washing of the whole body . and sect. . pag. , . he sayth , jethro was made a proselyte by immersion or baptism in waters , and the manner of this immersion is sayd to be that they should be set up to the neck in water . and pag. . unless he be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 baptized he is a gentile . and out of arrian the jewish proselyte is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , dipped , and he that is onely so in shew not in deed , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a counterfeit baptized person . in his pract. catech. lib. . sect . . by christs appointment whosoever should be thus received into his family should be received with this ceremony of water , therein to be dipt , i. e. according to the primitive ancient custom to be put under water three times . his words following intimating as if sprinkling were appointed by christ instead of it , are his own figment . pag. . he makes the ancient manner of putting the person under water , and then taking him out again , to denote dying and rising again , with more of the like confessions , and even in this place sayth , the washing some part of the body is distinguished in use from the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( which answers to the greek word baptism ) which is immersion of the whole body . and yet the doctor is not ashamed to say , that primitive baptisms were not always immersions of the whole body , ( which me thinks he should hardly believe himself in ) and because the besprinkling of some part ( which i think is not true , if sprinkling by water and not bloud or ashes be meant , for the priests in their sanctifications dipped their hands and feet in water ; is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sanctifications , to intimate as if any kinde of sanctification of a part of the body though but by sprinkling with water were baptism . it is a like abuse when christ bids baptize , to sprinkle onely or pour water on the face as it would be , when he bids to eat , onely to chew in the mouth ; or when he bids to drink , to wet the lips onely . but that to sprinkle is not to baptize , is elsewhere asserted , addition to the apology , sect. . the doctor goes on in his dictating way thus . fourthly , it is known of the legal uncleannesses , contrary to those their sanctifications , that they were the cause of removing men from the congregation , they that were so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , unclean , might not partake of the privileges of the temple , till they were washed and sanctifyed , and that is proportionable also to the notion here given of it , that the christian children are holy , i. e. not inherently , ( they are not capable ) but in the account of god and men capable of separation for the service of god , of being entered into the church , into covenant , which denominates men holy , ( as the gentiles as long as they were out of it were unclean and unholy , acts . ) now are they holy , i. e. it is the present practice of the church , that apostolical church of s. pauls time , to admit to baptism such infant-children of parents of whom one is christian , though not of others . answ. it is sayd without proof , that the uncleanness excluding from the tabernacle and sanctification restoring are proportionable to the notion here given of childrens being excluded or included in the church . why should cornelius be counted out of the church by god or men , when god sayth , he was a devout man , and one that feared god , with all his house , who gave much alms to the people , aend prayed to god always , acts . . it 's true , he was excluded from the familiar society of the jews according to their superstition , and so unclean , but not accounted by god to be out of the church , but in it . that christians children are denied to be capable of holiness inherently , will not be granted him , much less his paraphrase on the words [ now are they holy ] i. e. it is the present practice of the church that apostolical church of s. pauls time to admit to baptism such infant children of parents , &c. it will not stand with his own exposition , as hath been shewed , and it makes the apostle relate a matter of plain fact in obscure terms . augustin did disclaim this interpretation hierom and ambrose gave another , and so did tertullian de animâ , cap. . what he adds is frivolous . and to put all out of question , the aneient fathers which certainly knew the sacred dialect , call baptism sanctification . so cyprian epist. . eum qui natus est bapt . zandum & sanctificandum , he that is born must be baptized and sanctified ; where baptizing is sanctifying of infants . so greg. nazian . orat. . edit . bill . pag. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 't is better to be sanctified without sense of it , i. e. baptized in infancy when they are not sensible of it , than to depart or die without the seal of baptism . and again pag. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , let him be sanctified from the infancy , i. e. baptized then . and many the like . for . that the ancients of the third or fourth century knew certainly the sacred dialect especially the latin doctors , me thinks the doctor should know them better than to assert it . he sure is not ignorant that in multitudes of things later writers do finde their many mistakes about the sacred dialect , and how few of them had any skil in hebrew or greek the doctor is not ignorant i presume . . in this very thing if those fathers certainly knew the sacred dialect and from their use paul must be interpreted , then the word [ sanctified ] not the word [ holy ] ( for the doctor doth not shew they used the word [ holy for [ baptized ] but the word [ sanctified ] ) must be cor. . . as much as [ baptized ] and then the sense is , the unbelieving husband is baptized by the wife , and the unbelieving wife is baptized by the husband , of the absurdity of which interpretation i need say no more . the doctor proceeds sect . . thus ▪ this passage than being thus interpreted , is a clear proof of the point in hand . and were not this the importance of it there were no privilege imaginable , no sanctity , which could be attributed to the infants of christians which would not belong to the infants of heathens also , which yet is here distinctly affirmed of the one and denied of the other by the apostle . answ. how absurd the doctors interpretation is hath been shewed before , yet were it granted him it would not be a clear proof for infant-baptism , unless [ your children ] were all one with [ your infants ] which will not be cleared till it be shewed that the corinthian christians had then no children but infants , or that he meant no other under that term then the infants . which sure is not according to the jewish pattern , in which they baptized proselytes children if females under twelve , if males under thirteen , not according to their will , but of the father or court to which they were subject , i add , if the apostle should by [ holy ] understand a privilege where upon they were baptized he should conceive otherwise than the jews did , who conceived all unclean , whom they baptized , till by baptism they cleansed them and made them holy . and for what he sayth that no privilege imaginable &c. i answer , . by denying that the apostle there attributes a privilege or sanctity belonging to the infants of christians , which would not belong to the infants of heathens . i have i conceive in the first part of this review demonstrated the contrary against mr. m mr. b. &c. . if there were a privilege attributed yet it might not be baptism . for. that belonged according to the fathers opinion and practise to unbelievers children also , if they were brought as i shew examen part . . sect . . , . there are other imagined privileges or sanctities belonging to them , as , by some real actual inward holiness , by others federal external holiness , by others holiness in hope and expectation . he goes on . and as this evidently concludes such a custom , known and acknowledged among christians at that time : so it is directly the thing that the jewish practise , in which christ founded his institution , hath laid the foundation of , in baptizing proselytes and their children , and to which the primitive church conformed . and so though that judaical practise taken alone were not deemed any demonstrative evidence , that christ thus instituted his baptism for the gentiles , yet being taken in conjunction with this testimony of the apostolical practise , and the primitive usage it brings all the weight with it , which a divine testimony imexpreted by practise can afford , which is as great as any such matter can be capable of . answ. . it is false that christ founded his institution in the jewish practise of baptizing proselytes and their children . if he had done so he would have bid the apostles , baptize disciples and their children as the jews did . there is not any thing that is brought by the doctor that proves it , yea if it were the minde of chrst to baptize disciples and their children , as the jews did proselytes , it would utterly overthrow all use of baptism of water after the first conversion of progenitors to be christs disciples , none but they and the children then born should be baptized , all disciples and their infants which descended from the first baptized should not be baptized with water being clean or holy without baptism . for they baptized because they were unclean till baptized , not because holy before . nor did they baptize any of the posterity of the first baptized though born but a few moneths after their first baptism . so that this conceit of the doctor would help much for the socinian conceit , as if water-baptism belonged onely to the age of the apostles . . it is false that there is any evidence in the apostles words cor. . . of such a custom of baptizing christians and their children as was among the jews of baptizing the preselytes and their infant's . nor do i think ever any of the fathers did interpret the apostles words as this doctor doth . tertullians words in his book de anima cap. . are not as the doctor saith an exact parallel to the apostles speech cor. . as the doctor renders and interprets it the terms candidati sanctitatis or designati sanctitatis , or candidati side● , in hieromes epist. . to paulinus do note , not that they were baptized as the doctor interprets [ holy cor . . ] bu● that they were in expectation , as they that were seekers for offices in rome , while they stood for the offices were candidati in wh●e so the infants were as it were in expectation of being believers and baptized , quod veluti ambiunt , & expectant baptismum as erasmus in his note on hierom ep. . to paulinus , or designed that is intended ●o be holy by the parents , that is to ●e bred up to profess the faith , and so to be baptized . both which senses do indeed oppose the doctors assertion and shew that they were not baptized in infancy . and for that which the doctor talks of tertullian as saying they were holy that is baptized ex s●minis praerogativa from the praerogative of their birth , it is a manifest mistake as the very reading the words shew . for. . the holiness he ascribes to believers children was not onely by praerogative of birth , but also ex institutions disciplina , by the discipline of their instruction , which is afore baptism . . the praerogative of birth the very words of tertullian shew to be no more but this , that believers children were born without those idolatrous superstitions , which were used in the birth of infidels children , which he there particularly recites . there is no one of the fathers interprets paul as the dr. ambrose and hierom interpret the words of legitimation in birth , augustin , what way soever he go , ●aith expresly , the words belong not to baptism . . i is false that the jewish practise in baptizing proselytes and their children layd the foundation of infant-baptism ; neither the scripture gives any hint thereof , no● any of the ancient christian writers , no not any of those the doctor cites ever derives it from the jewish practise : but the speeches of tertullian de bapt . cap. . of gregory nazianzen orat. . de baptismo , disswading from it except in case of necessity by reason of apparent danger of death , the very decree of the council in cyprians . epistle , the speeches of augustin , hierom against the pelagians , the words of the counterfeit authors of the book of questions and answers to the orthodox imposed on justin martyr qu. . the questions ad antiochum imposed on athanasius qu . the words of the author of the ecclesiastick hierarchy imposed on dionysius areopagita , the story of the baptism of gregory nazianzen , the intended baptism of augustin , when in da●ger of death , tom . . confess . lib. . cap. ● . and other evidences d● shew that the fathers took the baptism of infants not to have foundation in the jews practise , but in the conceit they had that baptism did regenerate , give grace and save , and that it was necessary for them to enter into the kingdom , and that they were in danger of perishing if they were not baptized , and therfore they practised baptizing of infants in that ca●e . which thing the papists avouch at this day , and in order thereto womens baptizing . the protestant reformers who composed the common prayer book , do appear to have had the like conceit , in that in the preface before publique baptism they use the old reason from john . . rom. . . for infant-baptism , affirming infants to be regenerate , and undoubtedly saved dying baptized , allowing midwives to baptize , till the words [ lawfull minister ] were added in the rubrick after the conference at hampton court , where had not king james over-ruled them the bishops had not yelded to that reformation ; yet still they kept private baptism , with that ridiculous use of propounding the questions of repentance and faith to the infant , to which the sureties must answer in the childes behalf , with profession of the childes desire to be baptized into the faith recited , though the childe were then crying when the words were spoken ; and for the sureties they had no desire to be baptized ; and the bishops and presbyters requiring it would have censured them as anabaptists had they indeed minded baptism according to christs minde : which thing was a meer mockery , as chamier calls it . yet in the rubrick it self in the common prayer book in the title of publique baptism it is confessed that the ancient custom was of baptizing onely at easter and whitsuntide , & baptizing is acknowledged to have been by dipping : sprinkling or pouring water on the face i do conjecture by reports and such writings as i have seen , was most after the conference at hampton court. dr. hammond himself in his practic catech. lib. . sect . . pag. . saith , all men were instructed anciently in the foundamentals of faith before they were permitted to be baptized . and therefore for the present i shall put by the answering of the stale and rotten allegations out of the fathers for infant-baptism brought by the doctor , because having sayd so much in my examen part . . and my apology sect . . i presume those that are not willing to be deceived will not be swayed with dr. hammonds , mr. bs. mr. ms. friends , or any other citations from them , some being of meer counterfeit authors , as justin martyr , pope hyginus , dionysius areopagita , athanasius , some suspected as origens words , some misinterpreted as irenaeus and tertullian , some the very authors shew that they maintained infant-baptism but in the case of danger of death , as tertullian and nazianzen ▪ cyprian as he avouched infant-baptism , so he did rebaptization , and that as from the apostles . augustin as he avouched infant-baptism by apostolick tradition , so he did also infant-communion . but of these things if god will more hereafter if it appear necessary . this i take to be sufficient for the present to answer dr. hammonds new device which he vainly boasts to have all the weight that a divine testimony interpreted by practise can afford , and is as great as any such matter can be capable of . finis . errata . page . line . reade my apology . p. . l. . r. areo. p. l. . r. church . p. . l. . r. in tersering . p. . l. . r. mens . p. . l r. not . p. l. . r. materially . p. . l . r. is . p . l r. did . p l . r. that . l . r. circumcision . p. . l. . ● . he . p. . l. . r. . . p. l . r. . p , . l . r. . p. . l . r. keep . p. . l. . r. superiours . l . r. ●o . p. . l . r. excommunication . p. . l , . dele will be proved . p l. dele not . l. r. paria , p. . l. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . r. mathematicis . p. . l. . r. malits . l. . r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. . l . r. ●esute . p. l. . r. janu . or in . p. l. . r. is , or . dele can . page . line . r. he . page . line . r. anti. page l. . r. actus . p. . l. . r. bishops . page . line . r. fearfull . page . line . r. gentes . page . line r. pe●cipitur . p . l. . r. arbitror . p. . l. , . r. renewing . p. . l. r. there . p. . l . is it . p. . l. . r. miraculous . p. . l. . r. serve . p . l. . r. . l. . r. accept . p . l r. disciple is . p. l. . dele not . p. l. . dele not . p. . l. . dele in , l. . r in locum . p. . l . dele not . p. . l. . r. i finde . p , l. . r. heating . p● ● , l , , r , , p , , l , . r , peculiar , p , , l , , r , relation , p. , l , , r , use of , p , , l , , r. them , p , , l , , r , oft , p , , r , without , p , , l , , r , the , p , , l , . r , , p , , l , , r , in , p , , l , , r , right , that the sea , cor. , , , p , , l , , r , before , p. , l , , r , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p. . l. . reade them , p. . l. . reade v. . to be added after many , p , , l , ● , what dr. ward and dr. davenant have sayd for regeneration and justification of infants by baptism hath been accurately examined and ●●ervated by mr , g●taker in latin. notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e collings vindic . minist . evan. pag. . it is a rotten distinction to distinguish of substantial and circumstantial acts in businesses relating to gods worship , in which we must have an eye to every tittle of institution . cawdrey sab. rediv. part . . ch . ▪ pag. . the subject or material thing is the substance of a command . cawdrey sab ▪ rediv. part. . chap. . pag. . a ●teer positive law which is special to some person or nation is of no force under the gospel , unlesse it be ratified by the gospel . baxter plain scripture proofs pag. . nature telleth us nothing of meer positives mr. collings caveat for proph. pag. . the equity of the ceremomonial law is a dark notion to me , christ is she equity of it . the apostle cals it a shadow ; the equity thē of it is the substance of a shadow , and what that is i cannot divine besides christ whose shadow it was . i alwaies understood by the ceremonial laws those laws that concerned the worship of god in that time , which were wholly ceremonial and abolished being fulfilled in christ. notes for div a -e to mr. fisher , urging cor. . . for an equity of the geremonial law to prove christmas , mr. collings caveat p. . saith . the apostle indeed cor. . . urgeth the equity of that piece of the law , thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the oxe , &c ▪ but i never took that for a piece of the ceremonial , but for a piece of the judicial law. notes for div a -e mr. fox in the second book of the acts & monuments , as the years . see sprint of conformity . mr. blake , vind. foed . cap. . that is the covenant draught , terms of the covenant we finde , he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved , and he that believeth not shall be damned , mark . notes for div a -e m. collings episto the reader before his vind. minst . evang. in things relating to the worship of god it is a general rule , in which our brethren and we have long since agreed , that nothing ought to be done without an express warrant in the gospel . mr. rutherford , due right of presbyteries , pag ▪ . what the apostles commanded not in gods worship , that the churches must not do . piscator observ . in matth. . . docete omnes gen●e● ( nempe praedicando evangelium , ut declarat marcus ) baptizantes eos , vult ergo ut prius constet de alicujus ●ide , quam is baptizetur . collings vin . min. evang pag . it is the first act in ministerial commission mat. . . first preach , then baptize . notes for div a -e mr. fox in the acts and monuments of the church relates how in the disputation at oxf. . with mr. latimer dr. weston objected this thing , and mr. latimer answered , he found a womans receiving the lords supper cor. . . mr. will. cook font. uncov . pag. . the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes the species or kind of man distinct from other creatures , without difference of age or sex . notes for div a -e ames . bell. enerv. tom. . l. . c. . th. . protest . acts . . lex mosis dicitur jugum importabile , & chamier panstr . ca●h . tom . . l. . c. . spends a whole chapter to prove against the papists that the yoke there is the moral as well as the ceremonial law. yea , mr. b. himself direct . . for peace , pag. ● . hath these words , they were therefore said to be in bondage to the law , and the law was said to be a yoke , which neither they nor their fathers were able to bear , acts . vide pareum bell. cas●ig de justific . l. . c . is the common doctrine of protestants to interpret the yoke of the whole law , intolerable , because of the curse . vide dr. field of the church , l. c. . notes for div a -e vide selden de jure na● . &c. l. . c. . notes for div a -e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , matth. . ● . ( which is less than 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) notes a little childe that could call to his fellows . notes for div a -e knolls history of the turks in solyman the magnificent . væ scandalizantium, or, a treatise of scandalizing wherein the necessity, nature, sorts, and evills of scandalizing, are handled, with resolution of many questions thereto pertaining / preached at lemster, in herefordshire by iohn tombes ... tombes, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) væ scandalizantium, or, a treatise of scandalizing wherein the necessity, nature, sorts, and evills of scandalizing, are handled, with resolution of many questions thereto pertaining / preached at lemster, in herefordshire by iohn tombes ... tombes, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by leon lichfield, for edward forrest, oxford : . reproduction of original in bodleian library. table of contents: p. [ ]-[ ] errata: p. 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texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng bible. -- n.t. -- luke xvii, - -- criticism, interpretation, etc. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion vae scandalizantium . or a treatise of scandalizing , wherein the necessity , nature , sorts , and evills of scandalizing , are handled , with resolution of many questions thereto pertaining . preached at lemster , in hereford-shire . by iohn tombes , b. d. oxford , printed by leon : lichfield , for edward forrest . an. dom. . to the right honourable iohn lord viscovnt scudamore . right honourable , it is necessary that christians should bee warned of sin against god , lest they incurre his wrath . and withall it is as necessary that the sins of which men are warned should be plainely , and distinctly declared . without the one mens consciences will sinne without feare : without the other they will feare where no feare is : the defect of the former will make consciences secure : the want of the latter perpetually unquiet , or setled in errour . and errours in conscience produce many great evills not onely ad intra in mens owne soules , but also ad extra in humane affaires . the endeavouring then to direct mens consciences in practique cases cannot but be a needfull and charitable worke . and surely as it is usefull in other arguments , so very needfull in this of scandals . few there bee that heed the terrible commination of our saviour against scandalizers , and therefore are affected as if by transmigration they had cains spirit , when he said nunquid ego fratris mei custos ? whence it is that offences are multiplyed dayly , many soules perish , alienations of minde , schismes , jarres and warres too arise . wee wish , wee pray , i would wee might say we hope for a true union and consolidation of mens minds . certainly it is not to be hoped without removeall of scandals . on the other side the greivous threatning of our lord christ doth so affright many consciences , that they are almost irresolute in every thing they doe before men , as fearing least there be anguis in herba , some scandall in it . in my small reading and experience i find few doubts of conscience , concerning mens patent actions , in the resolving of which the difficulty hath not most of all rested on this point of scandals . which considerations moved me to apply some part of my studies to cleare this argument , and to remove this evill . and having in this forme fashioned a treatise , i cannot say polished , it is now produced into the light for publique good by discovery of truth . such as it is i humbly present to your lordship , as to a person made honourable not only by your high dignities , but also by your noble vertues , manifested abroade in your employments of state , and in this your native countrey ( wherein as in your proper orbe you shined many yeares tanquam stella primae magnitudinis ) by your eminent prudence and integrity in government , and by your rare , pious , and large munificence in restoring tithes , and bestowing lands and building on the church , and indeared to my selfe by reason of that noble favour by which your honour hath beene pleased to cheare me in this very great , and very poore cure , in and under which i now labour . which i beseech your honour to accept of as from him that rejoyceth in the prosperity of your honour and your noble house , and studies to acquite himselfe your honours in most humble observance iohn tombes . to the reader . christian reader , for preventing of mistakes i intreat thee to take notice . . that whereas i finde the word [ scandall ] in common speech & some writings used as if it did signify a slander or evill report , i conceive that such use of the word [ scandall ] in that sense is different from the proper notation and use thereof : and therefore is omitted by me in this treatise . for though a slander may be a scandall , yet ratio nominis , or the notion and conceit of them is different ; the one signifying a false report of another in respect of the speaker whether the party slandered know of it or not , be offended or not : the other generally signifies all such acts whereby mens minds are harmed in reference to the person harmed , as i have declared chap : . and . of this treatise . . that whereas i use the tearme [ regard ] sundry times , especially chap. . in such a sense as it carries rom. . . where our last translatours by it render [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] used there by the apostle , and i say such a scandall is not to be regarded or not regardeable , my meaning is not as if it were not simply to be regarded , but in every respect to bee neglected , so as that we should not at all be bound to be greived for anothers harme caused by his owne wilfullnesse or ill disposition , nor to pray or use other christian meanes to redresse it , but onely this , that we are not so to regard it as to conceive our selves bound in conscience to omit our action , or to charge our selves with sinne if we doe that thing upon which scandall followes in the cases there mentioned . . that there are in the print sundry faults escaped in the few hebrew and greeke and latin words , in the running title , in the numbers of sections in the margint , in the interpunctions , and letters , which because i conceive the learned will easily amend , and they are not likely either to hinder or pervert the understanding of the rest , i have thought best not to burden the table of errata with them , but have collected these few that follow as the most materiall . errata . page . line . for bastes read beastes . p. . l. . for sandalls r. scandalls . p. . l. . for and r. are . p. . l. . dele then . p. . l. . for due it r. due to it . p. . l. . for occasion r. occasion of . p. . l. . for it that r. in that . p. . l. . for wise r. wife . p. . l. . for they r. there . p. . l. . for changeth r. chargeth . p. . l. . for intrence r. entrench . the contents . cap. . of the meaning of the text , and the necessity of scandalls . parag : . the speaker and occasion of the words . parag. . the partition of the text. parag. . the explication of the word scandall in the proper acception . parag. . scandall in the scripture use . parag. . of the sorts of effective scandall . parag. . the necessity of scandalls . parag. . in respect of scandalizers . parag. . of persons scandalized . parag. . of satan . parag. . of god. parag. . for what ends ordered by him . parag. . the application . . to justify religion notwithstanding the scandals of the professors of it . parag. . to magnify the providence of god. parag. . to teach men to walke circumspectly . parag. . to waite for christs comming . cap. . of the woe belonging to scandalizers in generall . parag. . the explication of the words of the second proposition of the text. parag. . that a woe belongs to scandalizers . parag. . who are scandalizers , and to what scandalizing woe belongs . parag. . what woe belongs to them . parag. . . why a woe belongs to them . parag. . application . to manifest the danger of scandalizers . parag. . to admonish them of their sinne . parag. . directions to avoyd it . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by sinfull example . parag. . scandalizing distributed into foure wayes . parag. . a woe belongs to them that scandalize by sinfull example . parag. . what actions of sinfull example doe scandalize . parag. . how they doe scandalize . parag. . why a woe belongs to such . parag. . application . to move them to mourne that scandalize by sinfull example . parag. . . to move men to take heed of scandalizing by sinfull example . parag. . . and others that they be not scandalized by sinfull example . parag. . directions to prevent it . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by abuse of liberty in things lawfull . parag. . a woe belongs to scandalizers by abuse of liberty in things lawfull . parag. . reasons thereof out of s. paules epistles . parag. . the difficulty of this point , and quaeres propounded to cleare it . parag. . answer of the first quaere , what are things lawfull and indifferent , and what is our liberty in their use . parag. . what wayes our liberty in things indifferent may be restrained . parag. . the summary of the apostles resolutions about scandall in the use of things indifferent delivered rom. . parag. . and . cor. . . . chapters . parag. . quest. . who are to avoyde scandalizing by abuse of liberty in things indifferent . parag. . qest. . scandalizing of whom by such abuse is to be avoyded . parag. . quest. . whether strong ones are obnoxious to such scandall . parag. . quest. . who are to be accounted weake ones not to be thus scandalized . parag. . quest. . what evill consequent on our actiō makes scandalizing of this sort . parag. . quest. . how long we are to forbeare our liberty for feare of scandall . parag. . quest. . what foresight of scandall consequent is necessary to make a man capable of scandalizing this way . parag. . quest. . whether the restraint of our liberty for feare of scandall be universall . parag. . quest. . whether scandall may be by omission of the use of our liberty . parag. . quest. . whether a community or a magistrate may be scandalized . parag. . quest. . what we are to doe when there is danger of scandall one way , and of disobedience to the magistrate another way . parag. . quest. . what we are to doe in case of scandall either by using or not using our liberty . parag. . quest. . what we are to doe when the forbearing of our liberty indangers the losse of it . parag. . quest. . what wee are to doe when there is danger of life by not using our liberty , of scandall by using it . parag. . quest. . what we are to doe when there is feare of scandall to some , and hope of good to others by use of our liberty . parag. . quest. . how farre we are to regard the scandall that ariseth from meer fancy without any probable reason . parag. . application . to manifest the uncharitablenesse of scandalizers by abuse of their liberty . parag. . . to disswade them from this sinne , with directions against it . parag. . . to admonish men that they be not scandalized by anothers use of his liberty , and directions to that end . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by enticing practises . parag. a woe belongs to scandalizers by enticing practises . parag. . how men scandalize by enticing practises . parag. . difference of scandalizers by enticing practises in respect of the part they act therein . parag. . difference of scandalizers by enticing practises in respect of the motives which incite them . parag. . difference of scandalizers by enticing practises in respect of the matter wherein they scandalize . parag. . the reasons of the woe due to this scandalizing . parag. . application . to manifest t●● great guilt of scandalizers in this kind . parag. . . to admonish men to take heed of scandalizing this way . parag. . . and those that are apt to be scandalized . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by persecution . parag. . a woe belongs to scandalizers by persecution . parag. . how beleivers are persecuted . parag. . how persecutions doe scandalize . parag. . what woe belongs to scandalizers by persecution . parag. . application . to discover the danger of such scandalizers . parag. . . to deterre them from it . parag. . . to advise them that are in danger of being scandalized by persecutions . cap. . of the aggravation of the woe belonging to scandalizers . parag. . the explication of the third proposition in the text . parag . . those that believe in christ are little ones . parag. . some lesse then others in spirituall gifts and graces . parag. . in power and dignity . parag. . beleivers commonly lesse then others in the world . parag. . little in their owne eyes . parag. . application . to advertise us of the estate of beleivers in this world . parag. . . to teach beleivers contentednesse in a low condition . parag. . . to quicken their hope after heaven . parag. . . to aggravate the sinne of scandalizing beleivers . parag. . that the woe due to scandalizers of beleivers is greater then any temporall death . parag. . who are to be accounted beleivers in christ. parag. . why so great vengeance is awarded to scandalizers of beleivers in christ. parag. . application . to manifest christs tender care over his people . parag. . . to teach us to commit our cause to him when we suffer for him . parag. . . to advertise scandalizers of the greatnesse of their sinne and punishment . parag. . . to deterre them from their sinne . vae scandalizantium . luke . . . . then said he to the disciples , it is impossible but that offences will come , but woe unto him through whom they come . it were better for him that a milstone were hanged about his neck , and he cast into the sea than that he should offend one of these litle ones . cap. . of the meaning of the text , and the necessity of scandalls . the wordes of the wise ( saith solomon ) are as goades , and as nailes fastned by the masters of assemblies : which are given from one shepheard : such words are these : the words of the wise , even of him who is wisdome it selfe , given from one shepheard , even him who is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the chiefe & only shepheard , and bishop of soules to the masters of assemblies , the holy apostles , to be , as goades to provoke unto love , and as nailes to fasten men in unity . all the words of this preacher were acceptable words , and although all are not written , yet all that are written are upright , even words of truth . this present speech was conceived so usefull , that two of the evangelists have preserved the first part : s. luke here , and saint mathew ch. . . and three the latter part : s. luke here , s. matthew with some inversion of the order used by s. luke , and saint marke , ch . . . the occasion of this speech is distinctly related by s. matthew , to wit , the disciples disceptation about preeminence ; to decide which controversie our saviour sets before them a litle child , as an embleme of humility , and upon this text reads a lecture to them , of which these words are part , s. marke ch . . . inserts another accident , to wit , s. iohns forbidding some that were not in christs retinue , to cast out divels in his name , togither with our saviours reply . saint luke ch . . v. . &c. relates the same accidents , but not this part of his course in this place . in which it is in vaine to seeke for connexion . that which maldonate hath observed is right , that the occasion is plainly set downe , and the order right in s. matthew ; here in s. luke the words are put loco alieno in another place . these two verses in s. luke doe containe three categorical propositions : in s. matthew there is a fourth put before two other , which is , woe to the world because of offences : which because my text omitteth i shall let it passe . of the three propositions in s. luke , the first is modall , and declareth the necessity of scandalls : it is impossible but that offences will come : the second foretells the wofull condition of scandalizers : woe unto them through whom they come : the third v. . aggravates that woe to them that scandalize one sort of persons called little ones , by an uneven comparison of their woe with a lesse , but a very grievous one : it were better &c. to begin with the first proposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in saint matthew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 often used by aristotle as equivalent to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : and it doth here void an unavoidable necessity . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to be or happen . that which most requires explication is the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated offences : which word is originally a greek word , but by use taken into our english language , as it is into the latine & other tongues : it is very frequent in the new testament : greek grammarians tell us that originally 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signified some part of a trap made to kill or catch wild beasts : hesychius in his lexicon , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , scandall , a part of mouse-traps . the greek scholiast on aristophanes his acharn : and suidas after him tell us that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , were certain crooked peeces of wood , unto which wild beasts coming ( because the bait was thereunto fastned , say some ) did cast downe on themselves , or cast themselves upon some frame of wood , by which they were hurt , killed , maimed , or made halte and so caught : and therefore they derive these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from halting which hapned to the basts that dashed on them . such accidents the prophet isaiah intimates to follow on the putting of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 isay. . v. . where foretelling that christ should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated by s. peter . pet. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he tells us that many shall stumble and fall , and be broken and be snared , and be taken : but what ever the originall of the word be , certain it is , that in the new testament it is synonymous to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that at which a man dasheth his foot , as rom. . . s. paul puts these two words as of the same sense , rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used as equivalent to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which signify a snare or toyle , by which in hunting wild beasts are taken . by which words the hebrew words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to fall ( to which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 most aptly answers ) and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 used psal. . . isai. . . . which signify a gin , or snare , are rendred by the apostle . out of that which hath bin said , we may easily perceive that a scandall in the notatiō of the word signifies such a block , piece of wood , stone or the like , at which a beast or man dashing or hiting themselves fall or otherwise catch harme , as by bruising maining , halting or the like . scandall then properly is applied to that wherby the body is hurt the laying of which is forbidden levit. . . and therefore a woe belongs to him that laies it . but here doubtlesse our saviour means not such a stumbling-block as hurts the body , but ( as it is commonly translated to signify ) such a one as whereby the mind or soule is harmed . now the harming of the mind is by causing griefe , and so rom. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is grieved , is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is scandalized , or stirring up anger , displeasure , enmity , as whē our saviour saith math. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that we may not scandalize them , that is , we may not provoke them to anger or enmity against us . but chiefly the mind or soule is harmed by committing sin , as the action of him that sate at meat in the idols temple became a scandall in emboldning others to cōmunicate with idolaters in idol-service . cor. . . . and balaam is said to teach balac to lay a stumbling block before the children of israel to eat things sacrificed to idols , and to commit fornication , revel . . . which hurt of the soule is by laying it open to gods wrath , and by defiling and wounding the conscience : and here is to be noted , that whereas in common use to offend is as much as to displease , in the scripture use he is said to be offended who is induced to sin , though he be pleased thereby : so that to offend , is not onely to displease , but also to harme the soule even by pleasing . now this laesio animi , hurting of the minde is sometimes by a meere object without , at which the person offended dasheth himselfe , and hurteth his soule , the thing which is the scandall acting nothing to move the person to harme himselfe , which therefore may not unfitly bee called an objective scandall . thus images , silver and gold are termed , ezek . . . the stumbling block of mens iniquity . so was the babylonish garment to achan , bathsheba's nakednesse to david , the altar of damascus to ahaz , &c. such are to many others a glasse of wine , a wanton picture , a book of magick , and the like . now in this sort of scandall it is the person hurt that scandalizeth himselfe , as being active therein : and therefore most truly the scandall is in himselfe . in which respect s. iohn . epist. ch. . v. . tels us that hee that loveth his brother abideth in the light , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and a scandall is not in him , that is , hee doth not make his neighbours prosperity his brothers preferment , &c. to be a stumbling block to him to make him covetous , envious , &c. for the antithesis , v. . and the coherence of the text shew it to be meant not of scādall , whereby through defect of love a mā causeth another to stumble , but of scandall whereby a man may cause himself to fall for want of light in himselfe . and to the same purpose it is said in that parallel place , psal. . . great peace have they which love thy law , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and there is no stumbling blocke to them , that is , by reason of their adhering to gods law , outward objects become not scandall to them . sometimes the hurting of the soule is by the action of another , which i therefore call effective scandall , as ieroboams setting up the golden calves was a scādall to israel : davids sin a scandall in causing the enimies of the lord to blaspheme . now such actions may bee scandall three waies . . in potentia , in possibility onely , when the action is in it's nature scandalous , or in the intention of the agent , but not so in the event , because of the stedfastnesse and uprightnes of the person tempted . so was the action of iosephs mistris to ioseph . peters persuasion to our lord christ , mat. . . and this is termed scandalum datum , sed non acceptum , given but not taken . . inactu , actually . in the event , but not frō the nature of the action , or intent of the agent , but by accident by reason of the erroneous judgement , or evill disposition of the person scandalized , as christ's preaching of eating his flesh , and drinking his blood was a scandall , iohn . . . and the preaching of christ crucified is to carnall men . . cor. . . and is termed scandalum acceptū sed non datum , a scandall taken though not given . . inactu & per se , actually in the event , and of it selfe , that is from the nature of the action , as in davids sinne , . sam. . . or intent of the agent , as in balaams fact , rev. . . in ieroboam's fact , . kings . . . and this is termed , scandalum datum & acceptū : a scandall both taken and given . now although i conceive our saviour intended specially this last sort of sandalls in this place , they being the scandals by which a woe comes to the world , and a woe belongs to the authors of thē , yet i know no absurdity in it to extend this proposition in the handling of it to all those sorts of scandalls , by which the soules or minds of men are hurt . according to which the sense is this . it is impossible or it cannot bee otherwise , but that mens minds or soules will bee hurt with displicency , griefe , anger , enmities , sinns occasioned by outward objects & actions of men , which either by accident , or of themselves become scandalls to them . so that our saviours assertion is in briefe this : that while men live on earth there will certainly be offences and scandalls to the harm of mens soules . when our saviour tels us , mat. . . that in the consummation or end of the world , the sonne of man shall send his angells , and they shall gather out of his kingdome 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all scandalls , hee doth plainely intimate that till then there will bee scandals even in his church ; that the church in it's present condition on earth is but as a field in which wheat and tares grow together , scandals and good example : that it is a mixt company of good and bad ; wise , and foolish ; weake , & strong ; and therefore scandalls will arise . this necessitie of scandalls is . . in respect of the second causes . . in respect of the first & supreme cause of al things . the second causes are , . the persons scandalizing . . scandalized . . satan , who hath ever a finger in all mischievous things . . a necessity of scandalls is from scandalizers ; first , in generall from vitiousnesse of life which every where abounding makes scandals to abound . all sin against god is venemous : it being the very poyson of the old serpent . and all open sins are like the basilisk infecting those that come within the sight of them , unlesse well fenced with antidotes . it is so connatural to men , that they are ready not onely to take , but even to suck in the infection . faciles imitandis turpibus ac pravis omnes sumus . in opē sins scarse any man sins alone : specially if their persons bee eminent either in authoritie , dignitie , or any other reputed excellencie : one ieroboam is sufficient to make a whole kingdome to sin : the prophanenesse of one hophni is enough to cause a whole church to abhorre the offerings of the lord. and if persons be not scandalized with infectiou of open sinnes ; yet doubtlesse they will be with griefe of minde ; so that one way or another all open sins sinnes will beget scandalls , and therefore such sins being so many and so certaine , it cannot bee but that there should bee an innumerous brood of scandalls . . but besides vitiousnesse of life in generall ; there are some speciall evills by which scandalls are multiplied . as . by malice . there are that doe data opera of set purpose lay snares for their brethren . it is the delight of some to be satans agents to harm the soules of their brethren , they sleep not except they have done mischiefe , and their sleepe is taken away unlesse they cause some to fall . prov. . . balak hires balaam , balaam deviseth and teacheth balak to lay a stūbling block before the children of israel , rev. . . ionadab the sonne of shimeah directs ammon how to commit incest with his sister , . sam. . and these promoters of scandalls are likely none of the dullest , but the most active and subtill : satan hath wit enough to choose the ablest instruments for his purpose . they use craft , eloquence , diligence usque ad extremum virium , to the utmost of their power to further evill . so devoted they are to the divells service that he can have them ready to serue his turne at small wages , magna merces quieta movere . it 's wages enough for thē to doe hurt . their own disposition makes them active of their own accord . and this cause must needs be a fruitfull mother of scandalls . secondly , proud contempt of their brethren causeth many scandalls : while men sleight the harme of their brethren , that they may have their own wills : as those , rom. . . that despised thē that did not eat as themselves & those whose knowledge puffed up , as the apostle speakes , cor. . . thirdly , imprudence in many causeth scandalls : for so it may bee that men may by their speech and actions scandalize through ignorance , as s. peter did mat. . . nor are scandalls more avoidable , if wee consider the qualities of persons scandalized . for as some are prone to lay stumbling blocks , so others are as apt to stumble at them . first , generally unmortified , or prevalent corruptions dispose men to fall by scandals . silly women laden with sinne , led away with divers lusts , are easily deceived by those that have a forme of godlinesse but deny the power of it . . tim. . . and those that receive not the love of the truth , that they might be saved , but have pleasure in unrighteousnesse , are not onely by gods just judgement , but also by their owne propensitie ensnared by signes , lying wonders , deceaveablenesse of unrighteousnesse and strong delusions to believe lies . . thessal . . . . . . corrupt qualities make men like straw or tinder , the least sparke of evill example or counsell will set them on fire . yea bare objects if seen or heard of will overthrow them . a voluptuous man shall not need to be invited to sports , merriments &c. sponte sua properat , he runnes of his own accord , he will smell them out himselfe as a vultur doth a carcase . even as sores of the body will draw corrupt humors to them , so will vitious hearts make scandals to themselves . secondly . in speciall some particular sinnes make some accidents to become a stumbling block to them . enmity against our lord christ his person , impatience to be rebuked , false opinions from example of others , common conceit , weaknesse from ignorance , dulnesse to conceive , mistakes of his speeches , caused the pharises and others to stumble at christ and his words . math. . . mat. . . ioh. . . ioh. . . . spirituall pride made the iewes rom. . . to stumble at christ : ignorance of their brethrens liberty made those weake ones mentioned rom. . to stumble at their brethrens lawfull practise , & fearfulnesse of heart caused peter and the disciples to be offended upon christs apprehension . mat. . . even as a mist afore the eyes , mistake of the unevenesse of the way , hasty going , a sudden weaknesse , and many more such accidents may cause the body to stumble , that otherwise hath not any setled debilitating sicknesse : so in the minde many scandals may arise from alienations of minde , mis-reportes , mistakes &c. both of them that are habitually depraved by a corrupt lust , and also of them that are otherwise right hearted . nor may we forget the agency or working of satan , in assigning the causes of scandalls . for he is the primus motor , the first mover , the incendiary in all these mischievous things . it is his imployment to walke about seeking whom he may overthrow and devoure . he hath a trap for a iudas , a snare for a simon magus , a gin for ananias and sapphira . and he wants not a stumbling block for a david , a peter , or any of the best of gods saints . and these he laies thick , with much art and cunning , baiting each with his peculiar baite , that were it not for the wonderfull care of the almighty , by his preventing and sustaining grace , no man could escape overthrow by them : so that if we consider the second causes we see reason enough of the multitude of scandalls . let us raise our thoughts higher , from earth to heaven , from second to the first , from the subordinate to the supreme cause , and from thence we shall see a reason of the necessity of scandalls . the prediction of them by god proves the necessity of them , for gods prescience cannot be deceived . but these following texts of scripture doe import more then a necessity by prescience , to wit , a necessity by appointment or ordinance of gods will : and voluntas dei est rerum necessitas , it 's an axiom in the schooles , gods will is the necessity of things : christ is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence , even to them which stumble at the word being disobedient , whereunto also they are appointed , saith s. peter . . ep. ch . . . behold i lay in sion a stumbling stone and rock of offence . rom. . . god hath given them the spirit of slumber , &c. rom. . . . and for this cause god shall send them strong delusions , that they should believe a lye . . thes. . . so that what ever be the way , it is from god that scandalls fall out : and therefore there is a necessity of them . but we may here aske with the apostle , rom. . . have they stumbled that they should fall ? are scandals ordered by god onely for the ruine of men ? doubtlesse no : there are other ends aimed at by god in the event of scandals , both in respect of him selfe , & of men . in respect of himselfe he orders the happening of scandals to become subservient to the fulfilling of his owne counsell . pharoahs stumbling was made an occasion to shew gods power , exod. . . and the disobedience of hophni and phinehas for the inflicting of gods just vengeance , . sam. . . & the unbeliefe of the iewes , the shewing mercy to the gentiles , rom. . . . in all of them there is a depth of wisdome , riches of knowledge in god , who by unsearchable judgements and undiscernable paths , brings his owne counsells to passe , v. . though wee know not how , nor why god doth permit such pernicious evils as scandals in thēselves be , yet the almighty whose thoughts are above our thoughts , whose waies are higher then our waies doth know . this wee are to hold as certaine . god lets nothing , no not scandals to fall out without excellent , though unsearchable wisdome , for righteous and good , though undiscernable ends ? and yet god doth not so conceale this matter , but that wee so far know his minde , that hee intends scandals , as for the intrapping of false hearted disobedient persons , so for the probation of thē that are sincere : the wōders and signes of false prophets , and dreamers of dreames were permitted sometimes to come to passe , to try whether wee love the lord our god with all our heart , & with all our soule . deut. . . and oportet esse haereses , there must be also heresies that they which are approved may be made manifest , . cor. . . and in the businesse of the embassadours of the princes of babylon , who sent unto hezekiah to inquire of the wonder that was done in the land , god left him to try him , that he might know all that was in his heart , . chron. . . so that one while god discovers a secret hypocrite ; another while manifests the hidden corruption or weaknesse that is evē in a godly person . here he lets a stumbling block be the destruction of an obdurate sinner , there it becomes to bee the witnesse of the faith , obedience , patience aud constancy of an upright believer . s. augustines saying is received in schooles , nisi esset hoc bonum ut essent & mala , nullo modo esse sinerentur ab omnipotente bono : unlesse this were good that there should be evills , they would by no means be suffered to be by the omnipotent good . nor is the laying of scandals lesse evill in man , because god permits them to be for righteous & good ends . for however they bee ordered by good intendmēts in god , yet they proceed from evill principles in men : and therefore are no whit the lesse vitious in men , because by accident to their intentions good is willed by god. as when it is said of iosephs brethren , gen. . . they thought evill against him , though god meant it unto good , their sin was not the lesse because gods goodnesse was the greater . for application of this truth . . from hence we may frame some answer to those that accuse religion by reason of the scandalls that are given by them that professe it . if scandals fall out among protestants , presently the papists inferre , that we are not the true church , the separatist that we are but an antichristian synagogue , the libertine , and carnall worldling , that those that professe more piety , then themselves affect , are but a sort of hypocrites . as if where there fall out any dissentions between the teachers , any evill practises in the schollers , there could be no true doctrine , nor good men , nor holy society . but these inferences are indeed nothing else but the unjust accusations of malitious minds . for if malice did not blind them , they might by the same medium conclude against themselves , there being no sort of men among whom evill practises doe not happen . even among the disciples of christ there was a theefe , in the first church of christians there were a paire of sacrilegious hypocrites , in the best churches there were dissentions , variances , and corruptions . the worst that can be hence inferred is that no church on earth is pure without mixture of drosse , that wheat and tares grow together untill the harvest . they that imagine a church on earth without scandalls in life , without corruption in discipline doe but fancy an vtopia , an idea of a church in their braines , which neither is nor ever will be in rerum naturâ . we have wherewith abundantly to justify our religion and church notwithstanding the accidents of scandalls , in that they are condemned in our doctrine , punished in our governement , disclaimed by most , practised by few . but that they are necessary , by reason of mens corruptions , and satans working even where there is true religion , true church , true godlinesse , it 's enough to answer them , that from the event of scandals would argue , that our religion is not true , or our church false , or our piety hypocrisy . a better use of this point is to take occasion to acknowledge & magnify the wise and gratious providence of god in ordering of scandalls . that there should be multitudes and multiplicities of scandals in the world , that every where satan should , i say not lay , but sow , and that thick too , snares and gins to catch the saints by the heeles , that over and besides the world , both good and bad should cast stumbling-blocks in our way , either wittingly or by imprudence , & withall naturall corruption be so apt to be busy with them , and yet the saints escape hell , get to heaven , sometimes without any dangerous falls , sometimes without any wounds , this is the admirable and gratious providence of god alone . it 's a thousand times more then to passe by the mouth of a hundred pieces of ordinance discharged against a man , and yet be unhurte , to break through the host of philistins with safety , to walk on high pinacles & not to fall downe headlong , to saile in the most rough and dangerous seas , to shoote the most perilous gulfs , and yet arrive in safety at the haven . the psalmist psal. . extolles the immense goodnesse of god in his preservation of men from many dangers : but none of them all is equall to this of the delivery of his people from scandalls , & therefore none deserves greater thanks : on the other side , that the almighty so orders it , that the obdurate sinner is insnared by scandalls to his perdition , yet no injustice , no fault in god , this is the wonder of gods providence , to be entertained by us with the apostles exclamation . o altitudo ! o the depth of the riches both of the wisdome and knowledge of god. rom. . . but then though it be the ever-vigilant providence of god , that preserves the saints from ruine by scandalls , and his just judgemēt that leaves the wicked to his own perdition to be caught by them ; yet this excludes not , but requires care in the godly to take heed of them , and condemnes the impiety of the wicked in yeelding themselves to stumble at thē . for it is the vitiousnesse of the one , that makes scandalls to be actually such to him , & the holy wisdome of the other , whereby god keeps him from being overthrown by them : wherefore it behoves them to learne to walke circumspectly , not as fooles but as wise . ephe. . . and to this end , . to get as much spirituall prudence as they can to discerne them , to be acquainted with their own hearts by frequent examination , by through-knowledge of their naturall corruption , to be well seen in the wils and methods , and artifices of satan , whereby he seekes to deceive and devoure , to know the dispositions of wicked men , and weaknesse of good men whom satan may work by . . to be ever sober , and watchfull , not laid a sleep by any lust of our hearts , any pride & selfe-confidence , or the like , as david , hezekiah , peter , &c. were , when they were scandalized . . that we study constantly in gods law , and cleave to it with upright hearts , which is a sure antidote against this poison of scandalls ; for great peace have they which love thy law , and nothing shall offend them . psal. . . that as we have one eye still to our way that we stūble not , so the other still on god in fervent praier to him , who alone can , and will keep us when we seek him . lastly , sith notwithstanding all the vigilancy and warinesse of a christian , scandals will be till the sonne of man shall send forth his angels , and they shall gather out of his kingdome all things that offend , and them which doe iniquity . mat. . . the righteous must learne with patience and longing desire , to expect the comming of the son of man. even as the husband-man waiteth for the pretious fruit of the earth , so must they be patient unto the comming of the lord. iames . . till then there will be cause for them to be exercised , in humbling themselves , and mourning for the dishonour of god by scandalls ; as lot vexed his righteous soule with hearing and seeing the deeds of the sodomites , & to possesse their soules in hope and assurance that christ will come , and bind up satan , & remove all scandalls , and perfect his church , that they may follow the lambe whither soever he goeth . cap. . of the woe belonging to scandalizers in generall . having handled the first proposition concerning the necessity of scandalls , the second followes concerning the woefull condition of scandalizers , which is delivered elleiptically by s. luke , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by saint matthew fully , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , woe be to that man by whom the scandall cometh , or is ; for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . which proposition the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 neverthelesse , shews to be added in manner of a prolepsis : for whereas it might be urged , if there be a necessity of offences , then they are no faults , nor punishable ; our saviour seems to deny this consequence by telling us , that though they be necessary , yet they be voluntary in the scandalizers , who are therefore culpable , and punishable , woe unto him through whom they come . saint hierome in his commentary on math. . conceives that in this speech our saviour specially pointed at iudas . t is true that christ doth pronounce a woe to iudas mat. . . but that these words in my text should either aime at iudas his particular fact , or be restrained to his scandalous action , agrees not with the words , which speak of woe or evill redundant to the world by offences : not one offence , and of scandalizing indefinitely any of those litle ones that believe in him . wherefore the meaning is , woe , that is misery or evill shall befall him by whom the offence cometh , who ever he be . and the conclusion that it affords is this , that misery belongs to him that is the cause of scandalls , or as in s. mathew in that paralel place mat. . . woe shall be to that man by whom the offence commeth . to declare which truth we are distinctly to expresse . . what scandalizers this woe belongs to . . what the woe is which is pronoūced against thē . . why it is that they incur this woe . in answer to the first , we are to consider , that that by which scandall comes is not a bare object , but a person , ( woe be to that man , as it is in s. mathew ) and that as an agent in causing scandall . . that sometimes a mā may be a scandalizer in overthrowing himselfe . as is manifest by that speech of our saviour , mat. . . if thy hand or thy foot scandalize , or offend thee , cut them off . that is as interpreters conceive , if thy lust , or will cause thee to sin , deny them . for mens own carnall reason , the lusts of their own hearts doe ofttimes cause them to fall , or to goe away . an instance is the example of the psalmist , ps. . . whose feet were almost gone , his foot-steps had wellnigh slipt . for he was envious at the foolish , whē he saw the prosperity of the wicked : his own understanding had in a sort tripped up his heeles , or scandalized him . and this sort of scandalizing may not unfitly be called internall or immanent , and is so far from being excluded here , that our saviour by subjoyning to the words , mat. . . woe to that man by whom the offence commeth , presently in the . ver . if thy hand scandalize thee cut it off , ( which is meant of this inward scandall ) seemes to have plainely intended it : and therefore s. chrysostome in his homily on math. . calls the scandals here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all hinderances of the right way , whether from within or without . and indeed a woe doth undoubtedly belong to all such , as by their own vaine imagination , their own evill affections doe overthrow themselves ; when as s. iames speaks , a man is drawn away of his own lust and entised : for as it followes , then when lust hath conceived it bringeth forth sinne , and sinne when it is finished bringeth forth death . accordingly occasion might be taken hence to consider the waies of selfe-scandalizing , which are in a manner infinite , and to shew the woe consequent to them , and to give directions to prevent this danger . but this is besides my purpose in handling this text , and an immense taske : it must be to shew the deceites of every sinne , its manner of working &c. and therefore letting this thing passe only with this admonition , that it behooves every christian to be jealous of his own heart , and to watch it narrowly , lest it prove a iudas to him , and how deare so ever his lust , or imagination be to him , yet it must be cut off , that it scandalize him not , remembring the counsell of our saviour , that it is better without them to enter into heaven , then with them to be cast into hell fire . . that sometimes and that most commonly , scandalizing is a transeunt action , and he is said to cause offence , that harmes another by his action , and this may be called externall or transeunt scandall . and this is undoubtedly here meant , for he speaks here of scandalizing one of these litle ones that believe in him , and of such scandall as whereby a woe comes to the world , that is to the societies & rankes of men . and this sort of scandalizing is it which i intend to treat of . . that of this sort of scandalizing diverse definitions are given . there is this definition or description in tertullian his book de velandis virginibus , where he defines scandall , exemplum rei non bonae aedificans ad delictum , an example of a thing not good building to sin : which description though it doe not unfitly expresse what is the scandall which is by evill example , yet doth it not sufficiently comprize all sorts of scandalizing another , v.g. not the scandalizing by abuse of our liberty in things indifferent , nor that which is by persecution . that definition which the schoole-men as aqu. a. ae . q. . art . . doe cōmōly follow taken from s. hierome comment . in math. . is more fit to comprize all sorts of scandall to another . scandalum est dictum vel factum minùs rectum , praebens alteri occasionem ruinae ; that is , scandall is a saying or deed , lesse or not right , occasioning ruine to another . this definition is good enough , saying that the terme of ruine being a metaphor ( and according to aristotles rule in his topicks 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all metaphors are obscure ) is unfit for a definition till explained : wherefore it is needfull we should shew more plainly what is meant by ruine in this definition . by ruine , or falling , is doubtlesse meant here not corporall ruine or falling of the body , but spirituall ruine or the falling of the minde . now this spirituall ruine is primarily understood of falling into sinne , whether it be greater , as apostacy from the faith , heresy , infidelity , idolatry or the like ; or lesser as by causing a slower progresse in religion , unchearfulnesse therein , impediment to any other duty a christian or an unbeliever should doe . if any be asked whether any griefe or displicency of mind , or anger , which are the effects of scandall , as is before shewed may be called ruine of another , according to this definition ? whereto i answer : the griefe displicency or anger that ariseeth from another mans saying or deed , is sometimes just and necessary , when the words or deeds be manifestly evill ; such was the griefe of the corinthians for the scandall of the incestuous person ; our saviours indignation at the hardnesse of the pharisees hearts : such was the griefe or vexation of righteous lot , in hearing and seeing the ungodly deeds of the sodomites , davids griefe because men kept not gods law. and this griefe is a necessary duty in them that mourne , but a sinne and scandall in them that cause it . a ruine therefore it cannot be said to be in the primary sense , as ruine imports falling into sin , but ruine it may be said to be in a secondary sense , as ruine imports any affliction of the soule ; and with this explication the terme [ ruine ] may fitly enough expresse the effect of this scandall . sometimes the sorrow , displicencie , and anger that ariseth in the person offended , from the sayings and deeds of another are unjust , both in him that is offended , and in him that offends : this is when a man is grieved at the use of another mās lawfull liberty in things indifferent by reason of his owne weaknesse of faith , thinking that to be unlawfull which is not ; as those that were offended at their brethrens neglect of daies , and difference of meats , rom. . which thing is unjust in him that is thus offended , and it is also unjust in him that offends , when without charity to his brother he heeds not , as he ought , the avoiding of grieving his brother contrary minded . and this griefe may be called , ruine of the person offended , not only in the secondary sense , but also in the primary sense , occasioning not only griefe , but also uncharitable judging , dis-union , or diminution of affections , & sometimes further sins . sometimes the griefe is unjust in the person offended , but not in the person offending . as many were offended at our saviours , and the apostles preaching , which yet were their necessary duties ; such persons were not only angred , but sometimes forsook them and their fellowship , by reason of such preaching , and so the preaching was a scandall to them , and a ruine , both in the primary and secondary sense , but through their own default ; and therefore unjustly on their part . with this explication i conceive the definition given to be sufficient , and right enough . . that sinnes of thought are not scandalls , unlesse they break out into acts , whether of wordes or deeds . if smothered or stayed within they are sinnes , but not scandals . that then an offence is said to come by a man , either when his intention is to harme his brother by his fact , as balaam did revel . . . or the nature and quality of the fact is apt to harme others , as in s. peters advice , math. . . in either of these two cases it is scandalum datum , or active scandall , and the man that is the agent in such facts or words , is one by whom the offence cōmeth . but if a man doe his duty and men are scandalized , if the offence were neither intended by the agent of the fact , nor come from the nature of the action , but from the ill disposition of him that is offended , it is to be conceived to be only ex accidente , accidentally , to him whose action did offend , and therefore it is in relation to him only scandalum passivum , a passive scandall , non datum sed acceptum , not given by him , but taken by the offended party , who is thereby the scandalizer of himselfe , or he by whom the offence cometh . our saviours discourse concerning the eating of his flesh , offended the capernaites iohn . . . but this was not by reason of christs sermon , which was of a necessary truth : but from their own perverse ignorance . in like manner the pharisees were offended at christs doctrine concerning the cause of defilement . math. . . but of this scandall not our saviours doctrine , but their owne malice was the proper cause . the fact of the reubenites offended the other tribes iosh. . . . . but this was through their own mistake . now the woe here denounced belongs not to those through whose actions scandall comes by accident : but those that give , or cause scandall , either in their intention , or according to the nature , quality , or manner of their action . so that , that to which this woe belongs , is not an object , but an agent , not only as scandalizing himselfe , but another , not by an action of the imagination , but of word or deed , bringing ruine to another , either in a primary or secondary sense , not by accident , but eyther by direct intention , or by reason of the nature , quality , or manner of the action . in answer to the second quaere . the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or woe is used in our saviours sayings to signifie some grievous judgement or calamity , both temporall , as mat. . . the woe denounced to the pharisees is expressed v. . to bee the damnation of hell . and that this woe is here denounced to scandalizers appeares by the aggravation in the . verse , where to have a milstone hanged about his necke , and to be cast into the sea , is made lesse than the woe here denounced to the scandalizer , and mat. . . when our saviour had said , woe to the man by whom the offēce commeth , he addes immediatly v. . that the hand offending should be cut off , that the scandalizer by retaining his two hands , be not cast into hell fire . hell fire or the damnation of hell is the chiefe and greatest woe due to the scandalizer . but besides it there 's a woe also of temporall death awarded sometimes to scandalizers . for this reason was balaam the sonne of peor slaine with the sword num. . . that god might be avenged of him for his practise in teaching balaak to lay a stumbling block before the children of israel . elies sons sinned greatly in their scandalous facts : for men abhorred the offering of the lord , . sam. . . the issue was , they were both slaine by the philistins in one day . likewise other temporall woes on their soules , bodies , names , estates , posterity , &c. are inflicted by god on scandalizers . thus was david filled with trouble of soule for his sin in the matter of vriah , by which he caused the enemies of the lord to blaspheame , so that hee was faine to beg hard for restitution of joy & comfort , psal. . . . and the incestuous corinthian was so plunged over head and eares in sorrow that hee was almost drown'd with it . . cor. . . hee was cast out of the church , delivered over to satan . david for the fore-named sin was haunted with griefes in his children almost to his dying day , and it stil lies as a blot upon his name . the priests that make others stumble at the law , and threatned with contemptiblenesse , malac. . . . no active scandall scapes scot-free , there 's none veniall , every one hath it's measure of woe ; yet not all alike . for some of these scandalls are more heinous then others , and therefore incurre a greater woe . as for instance , some scandalls consist in facts in their kind evill , and these are worse than other scandalls which arise onely from the abuse of our liberty , in things lawfull . the scandall of elies sonnes in respect of the foule nature of their facts was worse then than the scandall of the strong in faith by the eating of meats with offence , mentioned . rom. . . some scandalls are worse than other , ratione causae , in respect of the cause from whence they arise . as scandalls from malice , and subdolous intents are worse than those that arise from ignorance and imprudence ; balaams scandall by devising and counselling balak how to intrap the israelites was worse than peters advising of christ to desist from his purpose of going to hierusalem to suffer . . some scandalls are worse then others in regard of the eminency of the person offending ; because they bring a greater staine to the profession , and become a greater danger to men , apt to stumble : thus davids sinne in the matter of vriah the hittite was greater then the sinne of the adulteresse mentioned io. . the scandalous fact of a clergy-man worse then of the people , of a magistrate than a subject , of a noble person than one of the commons . vbi sublimior praerogativa ibi major culpa . saith salvian , where the dignity is higher , the fault is the greater . . in respect of the issue and event of the scandall , some scandals are worse than others , as when the event with a litle heed might have bin foreseen , when the issue is not only the alienation or grieving of another , but also apostasy of some , hardening of others , occasioning others to blaspheame the name of god , to inveigh against the truth , gospell , religion , &c. thus the incestuous corinthians fact was worse than the fact of those that eat with offence to their brethren things offered to the idols . . in respect of the number and quality of persons scandaliz'd , the scandals of some are worse then of others . for it is worse to scandalize many than few , weake christians than stronger &c. so that these and such like considerations vary much the degree of the sinne of scandalizing , and consequently of the woe due it . yet so that none , but hath it's woe allotted to it . in answer to the third question . the reasons of this woe awarded to scandalizers are taken . from the nature of the sinne . for all scandalizing though but by abuse of our liberty in things indifferent is against charity , as the apostle teacheth rom. . . for true charity should move us to serve , and helpe , and sustain one another , gal. . . not to harme deject and grieve one another . now the law of charity is a fundamentall law , the law of christ , gal. . . and therefore in this respect scandalizing is a sinne against our brother , and against christ , . cor. . . wherefore according to the rules of equity he that regards not to shew love to others , deserves to be deprived of favour and love himselfe ; there being no rule more equall than that of our saviour , mat. . . with what measure yee meet it shall be measured to you againe . but when the scandalizing is not by ignorance , but wittingly and willingly , then it is much more against charity , and therefore justly deserves a greater woe . as when men scandalize of set purpose either as the pharisees that under pretence of long prayers and fasting devoure widdows houses , by their shew of devotion gayned proselytes , and made them twofold more the children of hell than themselves . mat. . . . or as our saviour sayes of false prophets that put on sheeps cloathing , but inwardly are ravening wolves . mat. . . or foxes in the deserts . ezek. . . they shall receive the greater damnation , in that not only virtually , but formally , not only privatively , but also positively they sinne against charity . adde hereunto that if the scandalous fact be such an act as is in it's nature an enormous sinne , which though it were done never so secretly , yet it would highly provoke god : then it is to speake with the apostle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 excessively sinfull , in that it is both a grievous transgression , and a grievous scandall , and consequently compound iniquity . in which respect the sin of hophni and phinehas in their violent profanations , & their outragious abusing of women even before the tabernacle of the congregation , was very great before the lord , for men abhorred the offering of the lord. . sam. . . and davids deed in defileing bathsheba , and murdering her husband was exceeding greivous , in that he gave occasion to the enemies of the lord to blaspheame . . sam. . . . from the effects of it . the immediate and principall effect of scandalls is the harme of our brothers soule , by wounding their conscience , as the apostle speaks . cor. . . and quantum ad scandalizantem , as much as pertaines to the scandalizer the destruction of him , for whom christ dyed , as the same apostle speaks . . cor. . . rom. . . i say not that every soule that is scandalized doth eventually perish , nor doe i meddle with the dispute concerning christs intention in dying for them that perish : but this i say that he that scandalizeth a soule , for which , for ought he knowes christ dyed , and for which hee is to conceive christ died , and thereby moves him to turne into the way of perdition , doeth for so much as concerns his action , cause his brother to perish for whom christ died , although hee neither in the event perish not , nor christ in his intention offered up himselfe as a sacrifice to his father to appease his wrath for him . for it is meerely ex accidenti by accident to the scandalizers action , that either his brother perished not , or christ died not for him . even as he that maliciously intending to wound iason , phaeraeus did by accident cure him of an apostem , his fortune was admirable , but his malice nothing lesse in his wound by that accident . surely every man ought to bee tender of his brothers soule that it perish not by his action . and if notwithstanding his scandalous fact yet hee perish not , this cōmends gods goodnesse , but lessens not his naughtinesse . every man ought to bee tender of the soule of his brother , as if he were certain christ died for him , when in appearance to him christ died for him , and hee that is not so , is injurious to christ , whether christ intended to dye for the person scandalized or no : even as he that does a thing lawfull , which his owne conscience judgeth unlawfull , sinnes damnably , as if the thing were in it selfe unlawfull rom. . . now doeth not he that cares not to destroy anothers soule deserve to have his owne soule lost ? should his soule bee regarded by god , that makes no account of his brothers ? if a cain or iudas betray or destroy anothers life , who is aggrieved that they loose theirs ? if a monstrous caligula be so minded that he hee care not though all mens heads were off so that his might stay on , who can except against god for letting vengeance loose upon him ? adde hereunto that besides the principall and immediate effect of scandals many other evills by breach of charity , contentions , schismes &c. follow upon them , which as they bring woe to the world , so doth the woe brought on others justly rebound on the head of him that casts it . for application of this truth . . that which hath been said manifests unto us both the sinfulnesse and the danger of those that heed not their wayes to avoyde scandalizing of others , that watch not over their words or actions least they cause others to stumble . it is not to bee denied but that there are some who through overfearfullnesse of giving scandall , doe omit things fit for them to doe , which ariseth through want of knowing in what cases scandall is to bee feared , in what not , out of imprudence in not discernning the difference of persons . this errour is the more pardonable in that it likely comes not out of an evil disposition , but out of a tender conscience , joyned with a weak understanding . nor likely doth it procure other hurt than the lessening of the esteem of the person scrupulous , & the exposing him to contempt and derision , in some , to pitty in others ; excepting when such scrupulosity causeth disobedience to the necessary commands of governours , or breeds superstition , or the like evils . yet this is an evill in that it is an errror , and somewhat intrencheth on gods prerogative , in making that to bee sin , which he hath not made sin : and therefore is to bee shunned , not to be cherished . but such likely are but few . the most of people mind and prosecute their pleasure , profit , credit , preferment , content , &c. but litle or nothing regard what scandall followes thereon , many are of that impetuous resolutiō that they will have their sports not unlawfull in themselves , though they will certainly occasion drunkennesse , quarrelling , blood-shed , idlenes , undoing of families , and such like evils . so that in a sort they resolve like unto that pope , who said that hee would have his dish of meat in spight of god , so these are bent to have their sports in spight of their brethren ; yea and of god too , that commands them not to offend their brethren . and as men are affected to their pleasure , so they are to their profits , preferments , credit , ends , yea their vaine customes . so violent is the streame of their wills , that they will have their course , although they not only overthrow many lives , and states , but also drowne many soules in perdition . too too many are of cains mind , who when he was demanded of god , where his brother was answered angerly gen. . . am i my brothers keeper ? they care not whether they sinke or swimme , their consciences be whole or wounded , they stumble or goe upright , they perish or be saved , would it could be truely said that there were no ministers of the gospell , no magistrates , no parents , no masters , that by their courses shew that they make light account of the stumbling of mens soules , so they may have their will ? surely there should bee ( if there were any sparke of true charity in men ) a zeale to the good of their brethrens soules , and accordingly of some to have compassion , putting a difference , and others to save with feare , pulling them out of the fire : hating even the garment spotted by the slesh , that it may not infect others . iude . . knowing that hee which converts a sinner from the errour of his way shall save a soule from death , and shall hide a multitude of sinnes . iames . . but alas : so great is the vitious selfe-love of men that for their owne pleasures , profit , preferment , vaine glory , and such like ends , they draw innumerable soules into hell with them , sometimes by perverting their faith , sometimes by corrupting their devotions , sometimes by vitiating their manners , and yet as if they were all popes no man must say unto them what doest thou ? to omit other instances of lesse account . to maintaine the great idoll of latter ages the papall monarchy . what grosse superstitions have been maintained , what practises have been devised , and used to the seducing of whole nations of people , holding them in blindnesse and superstition to their perdition , yea to the reproach of the religion of christ even by iewes , turks , and infidels ; it were infinite to relate . how carelesse many others are to scandalize milions of soules that they may attaine to , or maintain secular greatnesse , i forbeare to speak it being too manifest to the world . all which dispositions and practises , how damnable they be , oh that men would consider , that they may prevent the woe here denounced by our saviour , and take heed how they slight their brothers spirit , lest they draw downe eternall vengeance on themselves from the father of spirits , and by valuing at so low a rate their brothers soule , make the market cheap for their owne . wherefore in the second place we are to be admonished , that as we are to look to our feet that we stumble not our selves , so to take heed to our actions that they overthrow not others . the almighty hath forbidden in his law to curse the deafe , and to put a stumbling block before the blind . levit. . . it being an unworthy , and injurious thing to take advantage from weaknesse , to hurt those whom humanity , & reason should cause us to helpe . but it is a thousand times more injurious and cruell , to lay a stumbling block before mens soules , in as much as the danger of a soules falling is incomparably greater then the ruine of the body . surely he that hath any estimation of the preciousnes of a soule , any love to it , any compassion , any sense of the evill of a soules perdition , ought to be most tender of doing it any hurt , ready to doe it any good . wherefore it concernes us to be watchfull over our words and actions appearing to men , that they become not scandalls . we are to look heedily to our thoughts , that we be not found hypocrites before god , and to every action we doe that we may keep our peace with god : but for a farther reason we are to look to those that are in the view of the world , as it were on the stage . we are to be carefull of our privy thoughts , as knowing that god sees us ; and hates all uncleannesse , in the inward parts . but of our open actions we are to be carefull for a double reason , because god sees them , and men too ; so that we may not only grieve gods spirit , but also hurt mens soules , if they be not right . for as there be likely some who as ieremiah speaks of himselfe , ierem. . . will waite for our halting if in any thing we stumble , that they may reproach us : so there are others , whom we shall probably make to halt to their ruine , if we cast any stumbling block before them . besides we may safely conceive , that they are carelesse of their own soules , that are not carefull to prevent the scandall of other mens soules : and that in foveam incident , quam foderint , they shall by divine justice fall into the pit themselves , who have digged it for others . wherefore that we may not scandalize others , let us learne , . to feare god as we are commanded levit. . . thou shalt not put a stumbling block before the blind , but shalt feare thy god : i am the lord. for he that feares god will not put a stumbling block before his brother , sith he is sure thereby to incurre woe , and displeasure of god. scandalizing consists not with gods feare . . to love our brethren , with which scandalizing consists not . for how can he be said to love his brother , who spreads a net for his feet : especially when he insnares his soule ? and this is sure , that he which loves not his brother loves not god but walkes in darknesse . . iohn . . . . . to get uprightnesse of heart , that thou maist walk uprightly , and this will prevent both stumbling in thy selfe , and scandalizing of others . for he that is not right-hearted , though he may in some things for a time doe well , as iehu did , yet sooner or later he will stumble or fall . even as a lame horse while he is heated will goe well enough , but when he cooles will halt downe-right : even so an hypocrite though for a time he may goe on fairely in his way ; yet in the conclusion likely , when he hath attained his ends , he falls foulely . as iehu that seemed to be zealous for the lord , untill he had gotten the kingdome of israel , but in the end shewed his hypocrisy by serving ieroboams golden calves . now such a one will surely become a stumbling block and that a permanent one . wherefore as it is necessary for our appearing before god with boldnesse , that we get upright hearts , so likewise for our living unblameably , and inoffensively to our neighbours . lastly to get wisdome and prudence to consider the dispositions of men , who are apt to be scandalized , and the due circumstances and consequences of our actions , that they may be none occasion offence . in all our dealings that are obvious to men we must shew our selves innocent as doves , wise as serpents , in malice children , in understanding men . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by sinfull example . how grievous an evill active scandalizing is in the generall hath bin declared . but because things that are more confuse in the genus , appeare more distinct in the species , my purpose is to consider the severall brāches of active scandalizing , that we may the better discerne the sinne and danger of scandalizing . active scandalizing is two waies ; one , when a man in his actions , intending only to have his own will or lust , regards not the ruine of another by his action , & this may be called exemplary scandalizing , or scandall by example , and of this kind of scandall there are two sorts . the first is when the example is in a thing in its nature evill , and this may not unfitly be called scandall by sinfull example . the second is when the scandall is in a thing lawfull otherwise , as being in its nature indifferent , but by want of charity abused so , as that harme comes to another , and this may be called scandalizing , in the abuse of things indifferent . the other way of scandalizing is when an action is done for this particular intent , that other mens soules may be harmed , chiefly in drawing them to sinne . and this may be called scandalizing by devised practise : which likewise is of two sorts : one when by inticeing means , as by coūsells , perswasions , placing objects before men , and the like , men are overthrowne ; and this may be called , scandall by enticing practises . the other when by terrifying wayes men are scandalized , and this may be called , scandall by persecution . according to this distribution in this method i shall speake . . of scandalizing by evill example . . of scandalizing by abuse of our liberty in things indifferēt . . of scandalizing by enticing practises , . of scandalizing by persecution . that sinfull example begets scandall needs not proofe ; experience of all times proves it too abundantly . and that position of solomon is plaine , prov. . . in the transgression of an evill man there is a snare , or scandall . for these two words are equivalent , as was declared before . a snare whereby to insnare himselfe and to harme others . whereupon it is that solomon adviseth prov. . . that we should make no friendship with an angry man nor goe with a furious man , lest we learne his wayes , and get a snare to our soule . so that the evill example of angry and furious men becomes a snare or scandall to mens soules , who goe with them . wherefore we may safely apply the woe of my text to this scandalizing , and conclude . that misery belongs to those that scandalize others by sinfull example . the wages of sinne indefinitely is death rom. . . even that death which is opposite to eternall life to wit eternall death of body & soule in hell fire . which is much more due when it is not onely a sin but also a sinfull example , & a scandal by sinfull example . but besides this eternall woe , that temporal woe belongs to it also , the story of the misery of hophni and phinehas , of david & others for their scandalls by sinfull example doth plentifully shew . to explaine this point more fully we are to consider , . what actions of sinful exāple doe scandalize . . how they doe scandalize . . why a woe belongs to such . to give answer to the first quaere , i say . that in this sort of scandalizing , the action scandalizing is that which is of it selfe sinfull , that is such as is prohibited by god to be done . for this is the difference betweene this and the next sort of scandalizng , that this sort of scandalizing would bee sinfull in gods fight , though no man were offended by it , and therefore when it becomes a scandall it is a double sin , . as it is such a kind of act as is forbidden by god. . as it occasions the ruine of another , as davids murther had been a sin if never knowne , but scandalizng others , it became a double iniquity . the next sort of scādalizing is in an action not evill of it selfe , but by reason of scandall , so that were it no scandall it would bee no sin , as the sin of the strong in faith mentioned rom. . in eating indifferently any sort of meat had beene no sin , the thing being in it selfe indifferent , had not the weake in faith been thereby offended . . it is requisite that the action scandalizing bee knowne . for privy actions doe not scandalize . actions doe scandalize tanquam objectum à quo , as an outward motive , that provokes the mind ; now such provocation cannot be but by the knowledge of it ; i meane knowledge of the act , though perhaps the person scandalized know not the sinfulnesse of it , but rather the ignorance of the sinfulnesse of it , may be the cause that it doth insnare him . perhaps it may be asked whether the living may be scandalized by the actions of them that are dead ? i answere , yes doubtlesse , though they were dead many ages before . solomons sin in hearkning to his wives , and furthering their idolatry , became a scandall to the succeeding kings of iudah ; and ieroboams setting up the golden calves , was the scandall of the kings of israel that followed him in many generations . as the remembrance of the vertues of ancestours , may provoke posterity to doe worthily , and thereby their memory be blessed as it is , prov. . . so the remembrance of the cruelty , tyranny , and such like vices of ancestours doth oft times revive their sinnes in their children , & cause their names to rot , and to stinke above ground , when their bodies are low enough in the ground . as the valour of militiades at marathen stories report , provoked themistocles to doe great exploits , and the relation of achilles his prowesse inflamed the mind of alexander the great , so the memoriall of sylla taught caesar to oppresse his countrey . for which reason it concernes all that desire to doe good to those that come after them , to leave a good name behind thē , least the evill savour of their bad example infect the world in many generations . possibly it may be yet farther asked , whether sinfull omissions of things wee should doe , may become scandalls ? i answere , yes ; experience shewes that the remissenes of great schollers in duties of godlinesse , is often the cause of coldnesse & lukewarmenesse in religion in others that leane much on their example : the negligence of governours in frequenting gods service , causeth many times the subjects to think there 's no necessity of constancy and diligence therein . so that he that would not scandalize his brother , must not only be free from open sins of commission , but also from sinnes of omission . for answer to the second quaere i say , that scandalizing by evill example doth harme the minds of others unto their ruine many waies . . because it provokes men to the imitation of that particular sinne in which the scandall is , whereby their soules are harmed . thus s. peter by not communicating with the gentiles , drew barnabas in like manner to iudaïze with him . gal. . . the example of an eminent person is never single , if such a one doe evill he carries with him others , as the stream doth that which floats upon it . iter efficax per exempla , saith seneca , the most prevalent way of drawing men is by examples , by which men are guided more than by lawes or reasons . in evill things examples are most forcible , sith they agree with our naturall lusts : men need not to be urged to them , they learne them of thēselves at the first sight , ut vident , pereunt . . the sinfull example of men becomes a scandall to others , it that it hardens them in the sins they have committed . for the deceitfulnesse of sin , so infatuats mens hearts as that they are ready to imagine the sinne of another man to be a good excuse or plea for their owne . as it is said by the prophet ezek . . . that iudah had by her abominations justified samaria in all her sinnes . not as if the sinne of one man could be intruth a sufficient plea to acquit another that commits the same sinne . but it is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the opinion of men , who doe alleage nothing more commōly for defence of their facts , and consequently for hardning them in their evills , then this that others have their faults , all are sinners : good men have bin overtaken with the same sins , eminent men in profession of religion have done as themselves , and therefore they hope they have done no great hurt , there 's no such cause of others reproving them , or that their own consciences should be much troubled . . there is another way of scandalizing which comes by evil practises , in that it makes men to stumble and fall one upon another , by jarres , variance fightings . what was it which set the benjamites , and the other tribes in such a combustion , but the horrible sin committed on the levites concubine . iudg. . . the treacherous murder of the sechemites by simeon & levi made iacob to stink among the inhabitants of the land , aud to combine against him . gen. . . so true is that of s. iames that warres and fightings come from mens lusts that warre in their members , and set men one against another iames . . . besides sinfull examples create griefe to the good , and thereby scandalize them . to this purpose speaks david psal. . . i beheld the transgressors , and was grieved , because they kept not thy word . and s. paul feared that when he came to the corinthians god would humble him , and that he should bewaile the uncleannesse wherein they had sinned . . cor. . . righteous lot , dwelling among the sodomites , in seeing and hearing vexed his righteous soule from day to day with their unlawfull deeds . . pet. . . as by stumbling sometimes there 's fraction of a member , alwaies anguish , so by scandals sometimes there 's perverting of men from the right way , alwaies dolor and paine even in the best and soundest . . adde here unto that sinfull examples doe most grievously scandalize , in that they cause men ill affected to blaspheme god , to reproach his waies , religion , service . through the sins of the iewes the name of god was blasphemed among the gentiles . rom. . . david by his foule crime in the matter of bathsheba , had given occasion to the enimies of the lord to blaspheme . . sam. . . it is a frequent thing for evill men to set their tongues against heaven , against god , his word , true religion , as if they were none of them good , when any that seemed to follow thē fall into grosse transgressions . wherein however they foolishly impute that to god , which he condemnes and punisheth , and charge religion & godlinesse with that which is the fruit of mens corrupt lusts , contrary to godlinesse : yet it serves satan as an engine to stirre up mens enmity against god & his waies , and an occasion for evill men to vent their venemous hatred of gods word , his people and religion . salvian at large relates how frequent in his daies , such speeches as these were in the mouths of pagans , when they beheld the evill lives of christians ; christians would surely doe holy things if christ had taught them holinesse , look into the lives of christians and you may know what is christs doctrine . in like manner by reason of the lewdnesse of gnosticks , nicolaitanes and such like damnable teachers . christian religion was much reproached by the heathen , and as s. peter foretold . pet. . . the way of truth blaspheamed . and so it is still the vitiousnesse of a protestant in his life opēs the mouth of a papist , to diffame the reformed religion , and the falling of any that seemed to be zealous of gods word , causeth the impure mouthes of licentious persons , to speak evill of the truth which is according to godlinesse . . lastly the sinfull examples of men that have the name of gods people doe scandalize , in making men to loath and to be averse from gods-service , and the way of his feare . the sinne of hophni and phinehas caused men to abhorre the offerings of the lord. . sam. . . . the cruelty and coveteousnesse of the spaniards in the west indies , caused the miserable americanes to abhorre christian religion . as a holy life in the professors is a great attractive , & inducement to draw mens hearts to the love of it ; so an ungodly and unrighteous conversation is a certaine impediment and disswasive from it . partly because as seneca saith plus oculis quam auribus credunt , men are guided by their eyes more then their eares , partly because good religion and vertue of men that doe evill things is taken to be , either non-ens or nullius pretii , either nothing or of no worth , even as a pearle or gold covered with dirt is passed by as if it were not , or of no value . for the third quaere . the reason why such woe as hath been said belongs to this scandalizing by sinfull example is . because in every scandall by sinfull example there is a double iniquity , one in that it is against the precept of cleaveing onely to that which is good . rom. . . an other in that it is against the precept of good example , in which wee are enjoyned that our light should so shine before men , that they may see our good workes and glorify our father which is in heaven mat. . vers . . . because it produceth two great evills , one in that thereby the name of god is dishonoured , & so is against the love that is due to god , the other in that it becomes the ruine of his brother , and so is against the love that is due to him . yet for as much as all sinfull example is not alike grievous , but some sinfull examples crosse the precept of love to god more , some lesse , some dishonour god more , some lesse , nor alike scandall , some being more against the love we owe to men , some lesse , some harming them more , some lesse ; therefore the same degree of misery is not awarded to all scandalizers by sinfull example . there are some that by a continued evill practise doe scandalize others , who are accustomed to doe evill , as if it were their occupation , others that scandalize by a foule sinne , but into which they were brought by infirmity , as noah when he was overtaken with drūkennesse . whose woe is doubtlesse lesse then the formers . some there be that scandalize by totall and finall apostasy ; others by a grievous fall , but so as they recover by repentance , as s. peter , and their woe is lesse . some break out into sinfull example after warning given them to take heed of it : others because they wanted a monitour to warne them , and their woe is lesse . some there be , whose scandalls by reason of their eminency of place , gifts , or profession are more notorious , and more heinous ; others whose evill exāple reacheth not farre , and their woe is lesse . some that overthrow many by their evill example , some but few , & their woe is lesse . some that overthrow by their evill example their own children , their own naturall brethren , their own flocks of whom they ought to be most tender ; others overthrow strangers only , and their woe is lesse . thus by variety of circumstāces the scandalls of some may bee worse then others , and their woe greater ; however there be a woe allotted to every one that scādalizeth by sinfull example . for application of this truth . . hence men are to bee advertised , what reason there is , they should bewaile , & mourn for such scandalls as they have caused by sinfull example . the greatnesse of the sinne , and the greatnesse of the danger , should both cause this humiliation . if s. paul saw cause to mourne , & to be humbled for the uncleannesse , fornication , and lasciviousnesse of the corinthians ; how much more cause had the corinthians to mourne for themselves ! every one that tenders gods honour , & his own peace , is to shew his hatred of sinne by mourning for the abominations he sees acted by others : such are marked and observed by god , ezek. . . greater cause there is that the actors themselves should mourn who have harmed others , and destroyed themselves suo gladio , by their own sword . t is true there are no small number of men , that make a sport of sinne , that rejoyce to doe evill , and that they cause some to fall . it were fitter for them to learne s. iames his lesson ch. . . to weep and howle for their miseries that shall come upon them : for as all sinnes are mischievous , so doubtlesse scandalls by evill example , will be very mischievous to the layers of them . you then that by your evill example , have made others dissolute , debaucht , quarrelsome , brawlers , fighters , murderers , lascivious , prodigall gamesters , drunkards , lyers , common prophaners of gods holy name and time , deriders of gods word , holy services , & servants , idle , undutifull to superiors , froward , factious , cōtentious , deceitfull , injurious , superstitious &c. oh goe & bewaile these sins as a double evill dishonouring god , & destroying men , overthrowing them , and bringing woe on your selves , and therefore requiring double & treble mourning for such mischiefes . it concernes likewise all persons for the same reasons , to take heed of giving evill example , to the scandall of others , specially of those that should be neare and deare to them . it much imports every christian for the comfort of his owne soule , the glory of god , the good of others , to have his conversation honest among men , that they which speak against him as an evill doer , may by his good works which they shall behold , glorify god in the day of their visitation . . pet. . . it is exacted even of women the weaker sexe , that their conversation should be such in their subjectiō to their husbands , that their lives should have the effect of a sermon to win others to godlines . pet. . . . the reaping of such fruite by well doeing should be a great motive to make christians abundant in good works , much more should the certainty of eternall life , assured to those that patiently continue in well doing . rom. . . provoke them to love , and to good works . however humane commiseration should move us to take heed of destroying our brethren by our evill life . should it not bee a griefe to thee to destroy him whō thou art bound to help ? can a man take delight to damne his child , his friend to enjoy his lust ? should it not be a joy to a man to lead others towards heaven , to keep them from hell ? oh what a blessed condition would it be to every man , that of him it may be said as the apostle of the corinthians , . cor. . . that his zeale had provoked very many , his life had been a light to guide others into the way of peace ! ▪ and as it concernes all men to take heed of scandalizing others by evill example , so likewise to take heed of being scandalized by such example . it is their sin that scandalize ; it may be also their ruine that are provoked by them . they shall receive more punishment that lead into evill : they also shall have misery that follow , marke our saviours words mat. . . if the blind lead the blind , both fall into the ditch . when we see evill examples , it were wisedome to conceive , that these are but for triall , as it is said of false prophets , deut. . . the lord proveth us to know whether we love the lord our god with all our heart , and with all our soule . though singularity be counted a reproach , yet undoubtedly it is a greater honour , and a surer happinesse rather to be singular with noah , then to bee corrupt with a world of ungodly persons , to swimme against the streame towards the shore , then to be carried downe the current into perdition , to contend with the wicked for heaven , then to goe downe quietly to hell . for this purpose learn we , . not to glory in any mans holinesse or learning , as if they were absolute , for if such fall thou wilt stumble too . it is an heavenly counsell of the apostle . . cor. . . that no man glory in men . remember so to follow other mens example as they follow christ to stick to their judgement , as they stick to his word . blinde obedience to men is a certaine cause of stumbling . conceive we the best may fall , and then the falling of some will not move us to reproach all , their lapse will not be our ruine . endeavour to be rooted in knowledge , to be of a sound judgement , that thou maist not need to leane on others judgement , or to make their example thy rule : weaknesse makes men easily to stumble , strong walls stand though the butteresse fall : a strong man can goe though his staffe breake , a weake one falls presently , so a man weake in knowledge that leanes on anothers judgement or example if he erre , erres ▪ with him , if he falls , falls with him . . avoyde the company of evill men as much as thou maist . make no friendship with an angry man , and with a furious man thou shalt not goe , lest thou learne his wayes , and get a snare to thy soule . prov. . . . evill company wil either infect or weary a man , one way or another scandalize him . favour , not any particular sin , such a one as favours a sin is like tinder , the least sparke sets it on fire : he that loves sin will make any example , any shadow of reason a scandall to himselfe . an upright heart when hee sees others fall , becomes more jealous of himselfe . a corrupt heart is secretly glad at other mens sins , as if they did patronize his owne . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by abuse of liberty in things lawfull . the next way of scandalizing is by abuse of our liberty in things lawfull concerning which we affirme , that a woe belongs to them that scandalize others by abuse of their liberty in things lawfull against charity . it is frequently forbidden by the apostle , and therefore undoubtedly a woe appertaines to the doing of it . rom. . . the apostles precept is ▪ let us not judge one another any more : but judge this rather that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brothers way : which precept though it bee delivered in termes appliable to scandall in generall , yet the series of the apostles discourse shewes it was specially intended to admonish them , that they lay not a stumbling block in their brothers way in their use of meats and dayes , things indifferent , which is more plainly expressed . . cor. . . take heed least by any means this liberty [ about meates ] of yours , become a stumbling block to them that are weake . and gal. . . brethren yee have beene called unto liberty , onely use not your liberty for an occasion to the flesh . but by love serve one another . and there are many reasons of this precept , expressed in those scriptures . as , . it is a corruption of our good , when it becomes anothers harme . our good will be as no good to us , when it is thus perverted . plus aloes quam mellis habet . as wine mixed with gall and worme wood ; so is the use of a christians liberty in things lawfull tending to the ruine of his brother . wherefore the apostle warnes us that our good be not thereby evill spoken of . rom. . . all things indeed are pure , but it is evill to him that eateth with offence . v. . . it is a depraving of our knowledge of our liberty . our knowledge of our liberty should serve us to direct our selves in our way : but not be made an ignis fatuus to leade others out of the way . but rather as a mercury , or hand to direct them in it , as a candle to enlighten us how to remove stones and stumbling blocks out of the way of gods people , that the weake be not cast downe by them . we know saith the apostle , . cor. . . that we all have knowledge , yet we are to take heed that through our knowledge our weake brother perish not for whom christ died . v. . . it is an unreasonable , and unequall thing , and so against justice , that the priviledge of one should be the undoing of another , that the benefit of one should become the detriment of another , that one christians liberty should be enjoyed so as to harme others . our liberty is not res tanti , a thing of that value , that it should at all times bee used even to the ruine of our brother . the pleasing of our own wills should not bee so accounted of , as to have them , what ever mischief ensue to our brother . 't is true if the use of our liberty did make us accepted with god , then it were equall wee should please him , though we displease all men . but the kingdome of god is not meat and drink : but righteousnesse and peace and joy in the holy ghost . rom. . . meat commendeth us not to god : for neither if we eat are we the better , neither if we eat not are we the worse . . cor. . . and the like may bee said of other indifferent things , wherefore the good of enjoying our liberty is not such as may countervaile the evill of scandalizing our brother . iustice in the embleme waighes with even skales : so should we in the use of our liberty , not account our liberty so waighty , as that our brothers good be accounted light . . to abuse our liberty to the scandalizing of another , is against the charity wee owe to him . if thy brother bee grieved with thy meat : now walkest thou not charitably , saith the apostle rom. . . the property of true charity is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . cor. . . to be kind and beneficiall to others , not to bee hurtfull , and unkind : it seekes not her owne . v. . when it may wrong another . he then that shall be so settled on this resolution , as that hee will not abate an inch of his conveniency for the preventing of a mischiefe , or at least a vexation to his brother shewes that he loves himselfe much , his brother litle or nothing at all . . and as this offensive use of our liberty discovers want of charity , so it doth also want of mercy . for it is a kind of spirituall slaying or wounding of our brother . the apostle . cor. . . . saith that by such offences the scandalizers doe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , beate and wound the weak conscience of their brother , as a man that doth kill another with a destructive weapon , and that consequently the offended person 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , perisheth , that is quantum per ipsum stat , as much as pertaines to him . and to the like purpose disswading from using our liberty in meates with offence hee forbids it in this phrase , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . rom. . . destroy not him with thy meat , and againe , v. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . for meat destroy not , or dissolve not the work of god , that is the soule of thy brother . as if scandalizing were a destroying or murther , such as a soule is capable of . for what is the murther of the soule but grieving it , perverting it , causing it to sin , to feele gods anger ? this is that which the scripture calleth death , as being indeed the onely death of an immortall spirit , so that to cause this by using of our liberty is against the mercy wee are to shew to our brothers soule , which is also aggravated in that it is a destroying of gods worke , that is , the soule , which is divinae particula aurae , that particle as it were of gods breath . gen. . . that image of the invisible god , farre surpassing in worth the whole masse of corporeall beings , and therefore the destruction of it much exceeding the destruction of the body . . adde hereunto , that this scandalizing must needes hinder the peace , the sweet peace that should bee betweene christians that are members of the same body . for whereas they should follow after the things that make for peace ▪ rom. . . this course is opposite thereto . peace is to be followed by yielding somewhat to other mens desires , by being indulgent to their weakenesse , by relaxation of that rigour we may stand upon . but in this way of scandalizing another by the use of our liberty there 's no yielding to the desires of others , no indulgence to their weaknesse , no remission of rigour , yea besides it causeth a jealousy in the offended person of his enmity towards him , who would doe that which hee is so much offended with . which apprehension will assuredly cause him to look obliquo oculo , awry on him , that offends , and instead of imbracing him , flye off farther from him . . and indeed whether there bee enmity or evill will or no in the scandalizer , surely there is some pride , and contempt of his brother in this sin . for the apostle when hee speakes of the fountaine of this evill , derives it from the swelling of knowledge , that his knowledge puffeth him up . . cor. . . and againe when he forbids the cause of scandalizing in the use of things indifferent hee chargeth thus ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . let him not despise or set at nought his brother . intimating that if he were not puffed up , with his knowledge , nor set at nought his brother , but esteemed him as hee should , hee would prize him above his owne conveniences , and remit his use of them for his sake . now pride whereby a man despiseth another as it is a great evill in it selfe , so is it the greater in that by it commeth contention . prov. . . . furthermore the obligation of christians bindes them to the utmost of their power to further the kingdome of god in men ; his glory , and their salvation . the mercy we have our selves received should move us to endeavour to make others partakers of the same , we being called should call others , as philip having found the messiah invites nathaniel to come to him iohn . . peter being converted was bound to strengthen his brethren . luke . . . wherefore for such a one not onely not to strengthen , but even for unnecessary things , in which the kingdome of god consists not , to weaken them is very contrary to to the heavenly calling wherewith we are called ▪ to the unspeakable grace we have received : doubtlesse the apostles rule is most equall for such , that whether they eat or drink , or whatsoever they doe , they doe all to the glory of god , giving none offence neither to the iewes , nor the gentiles , nor to the church of god ; but as he himselfe did , who pleased all men in all things , not seeking his owne profit , but the profit of many that they may be saved . . cor. . . . . . vnto which the example of our lord christ should yet more forcibly urge us , as the same apostle presseth it . rom. . . . . we that are strong ought to beare with the infirmities of the weak , and not to please our selves . let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification . for even christ pleased not himselfe , but as it is written , the reproaches of them , that reproached thee , fell on me . how much doe they degenerate from christs example , whom they ought to follow , who are unwilling to suspend the use of their liberty for their pleasure , whereas the lord christ laid aside his glory , emptied himselfe , and became of no reputation for their sake . . finally what is scandalizing our brethren for our liberties sake , but a forgetting what love christ vouchsafed them and us in that hee dyed for them and us ? christ dyed for them that hee might save them , wee let them perish for our pleasure . such practise is doubtlesse not onely a sin against the brethren , but against christ much more . . cor. . . all these reasons put together declare how great a sin this kind of scandal is , and therefore , how justly a woe belongs to it . and so much the greater a woe is awarded to such scandalizers as it is committed with , and so much the greater pride , wilfulnes , or wantones : when it is done data opera , of set purpose , or with evident foresight of the grievance & harme ensuing thereby to their brother . for these things make it the more voluntary , and therefore the more sinfull . but then it is a very hard and knotty point in many cases to know when a christian doeth thus abuse his liberty in things indifferent , when not : it being a hard thing to understand , when men are weak , when wilfull : a hard thing to determin what to doe when the harme of another by our use of our liberty is only suspected or feared it may be , but on the other side probably may not be : what is to be done when it is likely that there may be scandall either way in using or not using our liberty ; what regard is to be had to our brethren in case the magistrate interposeth his authority . from these and sundry more such difficulties arise many doubts to the disquiet of tender consciences , and sinfull presumptions in some , superstitious feares in others , which beget no small evill , which points neverthelesse i finde handled ex professo by few : onely incidentally to other arguments here and there writers cleare some of the doubts belonging to this argument : wherefore i have conceived it may be of good use to endeavour the clearing of such difficulties incident to this argument as i have either by reading , meditation or conference met with , not discouraged by the conscience of mine owne insufficience , but trusting in gods assistance , & with all assureing my selfe that among readers there will bee some , that conceive esse aliquid prodire tenus . and that the order i use may appeare , . i shall briefly say somewhat of things lawful and indifferent , and our liberty in their use . . of the waies whereby a christians conscience may be restrained from using this liberty . . because the fourteenth chapter of the epistle of s. paul to the romans , and the eighth , ninth , and tenth , of the first epistle to the corinthians , are the seat of this argument , i shall deliver as rightly as i can a summe or the apostles resolutions concerning this point in those chapters . . out of these things premised , and such other passages of holy scripture and reasons as i finde pertinent thereto , i shall endeavour to resolve sundry questions or cases of this matter needfull to bee cleared : yet not magisterially obtruding these resolutions on others , but submitting them to examination , as remembring that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets . . cor. . . in answering the first of these points , wee are to take notice that there are some things lawful , which are in themselves duties , and commanded by god to be done , which yet are to bee omitted at sometimes , for the avoyding of scandall . as for instance , reproving of our neighbour is a duty enjoyned by god , yet to bee omitted at some times , when the person to be reproved would bee likely rather hardened , then amended by reproofe . in like manner may it bee said also of excommunication , when there is danger of schisme ; of punishing malefactors , when the issue would bee the overthrow of the common wealth . pro vitando scandalo cessat rigor dissiplinae , is an old rule and a good one , to avoyde scandall the rigour of discipline ceaseth . this truth is grounded ▪ . on that rule , which is among divines received , that praecepta negativa obligant semper , & ad semper , they alwaies binde and to alwaies , that is , what is forbidden by god may at no time bee done : no man may sinne to avoyde scandall ; their damnation is just , saith the apostle , rom. . . that say , let us doe evill that good may come . but on the other side affirmative precepts obligant semper , sed non ad semper , they alwayes bind , but not to alwaies , that is though they stand in force alwaies , yet not so as to tye us to doe the things required at all times . as for instance though gods command alwaies bindes a christian to pray , to give almes &c. yet not to doe these alwaies : but when the glory of god , and the good of our brethren require it . the knowledge of which time is partly to bee taken from rules and examples in holy scripture , partly from godly prudence and reason , which every man should have as a light to guide him in discerning the circumstances , which make such actions necessary . . on this consideration , that those actions of reproofe , punishing vice , and the like to them are commanded principally to this end , that they may doe good to men for the curing of their evills , the furthering of vertue in them . wherefore when prudence shewes that such actions would bee either fruitles in respect of rheir end , or contrariwise harmfull , they are to bee forborne : in this case there is libertas non faciendi , a liberty not to doe them , or rather hee ought not to doe them . concerning this sort of things lawfull , wherein our liberty is to bee restrained to avoyde scandall , there needs not much more to be said , but that when according to true prudence they appeare to bee necessary for gods glory , our owne salvation , or our brethrens good , then they are to bee done without regard of scandall consequent ; if to the contrary to bee omitted . few scruples there are in men about these things , and such as bee , may find some satisfaction from the resolutions of the cases concerning things indifferent . the second sort of things in which we may abuse our liberty to the scandall of our brethren are things indifferēt . now by things indifferent i understand not according to the vulgar acception of actions indifferent , such actions as are neither much praise worthy , nor much to be reproved ; because there is no speciall matter of goodnesse or hurt in them ; as for a man to eat when he is hungry , to drinke when he is thirsty , to keepe due houres for meales , or on the contrary to omit these : which though they may bee in common acception called indifferent , yet according to exact speaking they are not indifferent , but either right or sinfull as they are clothed with circumstances . but by things indifferent i mean such actions as in their nature , in se , of themselvs , are neither right nor sinfull , neither commanded nor forbidden , as to eat or not to eat such meats , to eat sweet meats or sowre , to goe or not to goe on foot , to goe on foot or to ride , to weare such cloathes or not to wear them , to wear linnen or woollen , to expresse our mind by word of mouth or writing , to write on paper or parchment , to speake in latin or english. in which , and a thousand such like , a christian hath both the liberty which is called libertas contradictionis , liberty in contradictories , to doe or not to doe , as to eat egges , or not to eat them , to weare a cloake , or not to weare one ; and also the liberty which is called libertas contrarietatis , liberty in contraries , as in eating sweet or bitter food , ; in wearing white or black in which there is a greater liberty than there is about duties . for though wee are not bound to doe all duties at all times , yet wee may not at any time doe the contrary : as , though wee are not at all times bound to reprove , yet at no time to flatter . but in things indifferent there is libertas ad utrumlibet , liberty in either of which we like , to doe this or not to doe it , to doe this , or the contrary to it . that there are actions of men that are in se , of themselves abstracted from particularizing circumstances in their nature indifferent as hath bin said , i take it as a certaine truth , grounded on the speech of the apostle . . cor. . . neither if wee eat are wee the better , neither if we eat not are we the worse ; like unto which are those rom. . . . . . and on plaine reason . for the contrary assertion must needes suppose that gods lawes doe command or forbid every action in speciall , which is not so , as may appeare by induction , in the particulars before mentioned , and thousands of the like ; i have read of some that have gone about to maintaine , that there is nothing indifferent : but this opinion either hath beene retracted by the author , or conceived so absurd that it hath had either none or very few followers . in the manner that i have declared i take it as certain , that there are indifferent things . it is granted that all humane actions in individuo , in the particular or singular , that flowe from deliberate reason are either morally good , or evill , as agreeing to , or disgreeing from gods law . i said signantèr to bee marked , that flow from deliberate reason , to exclude such particular actions of men as being naturall actions from naturall instinct , or force of imagination , are not of morall consideration ; such as are the handling of the beard , rubbing the nose , shaking the legge when a man thinks not of them , talking or walking in sleepe . these as not comming from reason , nor having any end are accounted not as rationall actions , but as animal only , though they be done by men , and therfore neither good nor bad . but for all singular actions which are not of morall consideration , that come under a law , being clothed with circumstances specificating and singularizing them , as they come from reason , as aquin. a. ae . q. . art . . or as paraeus in rom. . dub . . ratione principij ▪ hoc est ratione electionis & intentionis quâ fiunt , in regard of their principle , that is the election and intention by which they are done , are either good or bad , agreeing or disagreeing from gods law . thus every act of eating , or wearing apparrell , or going a journey with this or that intent , in this or that manner , is either good or bad , right or sinfull . but then it is as certaine that many actions of men in the generall , or in specie , in the kind of them considered without restraint of particularizing circumstances afore they are in actu exercito , that is , actually done are indifferent , as i have declared . and it is further to bee observed , that in these indifferent or middle things , as they are called , the christian church hath greater liberty then the iewish synagogue . for many things were not indifferent to them , which are indifferent to us : it was not indifferent to them to eat swines flesh or not , to weare a garment of linsey-woolsey or not , with many more . but it is to us indifferent to eate swines flesh or not , to wear a garment of linsey-woolsey or not . the ordinances whereby the iews were restrained in their liberty , were a yoake which they were not able to beare . acts. . . but it is removed from our necks by christs death , who hath abolished the law of commandements contained in ordinances ephes. . . and in this liberty wee are commanded to stand fast that wee bee not intangled again with the yoak of bondage . gal. . . a liberty then we have in things indifferent , & to renege and deny , it is to put on our neckes that yoake that christ hath freed us from . neverthelesse though god hath not made these indifferent things intrinsecally , or in their own nature good or evill , yet extrinsecally they may be made good or evill : and that sundry wayes . . by the command or prohibiting of the magistrate . for though the magistrates authority cannot make , ( for examples sake ) the eating of flesh , or the wearing of a weapon unlawfull to me , as a thing prohibited by god , and thereby intrinsecally evill : yet if hee forbid them , who is the lawfull governour , and hath power to make lawes , or ordinances , it is sin against god to doe these things : because he contemnes the law of the magistrate , against the common good , which is the ground of it , and the authority , concerning which god hath commanded . rom. . . let every soule be subject to the higher powers : for there is no power but of god : the powers that be , are ordained of god. whosoever therfore resisteth the power resisteth the ordināce of god : & they that resist shall receive to themselves damnatiō . the same is to be conceived of the commands of ecclesiasticall governors according to their authority , of naturall parents , of tutors , teachers & masters according to the flesh , to the which god hath commanded us to be subject . ephes. . and elsewhere . whence it was that the rechabites would drinke no wine because of ionadab the sonne of rechab his command not to drinke wine . ierem. . . for though by such mandates they cannot take away our originall liberty , yet they can restraine the use : the liberty we have in things indifferent being the proper matter for the magistrate or governour to shew his authority of making lawes in . . by a vow whereby a man bindes himselfe to doe or not to doe , to use or not to use his liberty in such or such an indifferent thing . for by vowes and promissory oathes , a man may make that necessary or sinfull to himselfe , which neither is intrinsecally good nor evil , necessary nor sinful nor would be to him such , but for the vow he made : because god hath enjoyned deuter. . . when thou shalt vow a vow unto the lord thy god : thou shalt not slack to pay it , for the lord thy god wil surely require it of thee , & it would be sinne in thee . but if thou shalt forbeare to vow , it shall be no sinne in thee . and psal. . . it is made a requisite condition of him that shall dwell in gods tabernacle , that though hee sweare to his owne hurt , he change not . . likewise a man may by his owne opiniō make that extrinsecally evill which is not so intrinsecally . for though a mans opinion cannot make that to bee duty which is not so : yet it may make that to be sin which otherwise would not bee so , according to the apostles resolution . rom. . . to him that esteemeth any thing to be uncleane , to him it is uncleane . ver . . and hee that doubteth is damned if he eat : because he eateth not of faith : for whatsoever is not of faith is sinne . . the good or evill of our neighbour binds us to use or not to use our liberty , as it may further their good , or be a scandall to them . for though wee are called to liberty , yet wee may not use our liberty as an occasion to the flesh , but by love serve one another . gal. . . now it is to be observed that which is intrinsecally good by vertue of gods command , is intrinsecally good to all , to whom that command is given ( who are the whole world ) and that which is intrinsecally evil , is evil to all to whom gods commandement forbids it , ( who are the whole world ) and therefore it is sin to any to doe that which hee forbids , as to lye , blaspheam &c. but that which is extrinsecally good , is not good to all , but only to those to whom the obligation reacheth , and for the time it lasteth ; nor that which is extrinsecally evill as being contrary to the governours commandement or to the restrained parties vow , or the verdict of his owne conscience , or being scandalous and hurtfull to his neighbour , is extrinsecally evill to all , but only those who are under that government , that vow , that opinion , to whom it happens that their use of their liberty may become the harme of their neighbour . that which is evil for a subject of the king of england to doe , may not bee evill to the subject of the king of spaine , who hath made no such law as the king of england : and that vow that binds him that made it , bindes not another which hath made no such vow ; and that opinion which one man hath , and that harme of our brother which restraines one man from the use of his liberty , restraines not another , whose action would cause no such harme : in whose mind is no such opinion . having premised these things i am next to enquire into the apostles resolutions delivered , rom. . . cor. . . . chapters concerning the forbearing of the use of our liberty in case of scandall , which was then in agitation , and determined by the apostle in those chapters . which that wee may the better understand , we are to take notice , that , as appeares by s. lukes history of the acts of the apostles , and likewise by other histories of iosephus , suetonius , tacitus , and others , the nation of the iewes was , in those dayes wherein s. paul wrote his epistle to the romans , dispersed over many countries of the world , in asia , aegypt , greece , italy : and particularly that many of that nation dwelt in rome . in which citty at that time , the great city , which had dominion over a great part of the earth , the iewes retained the religion and rites of their nation prescribed by moses , and were for their sabbaths , circumcision , abstaining from swines flesh , and such like rites derided by the satyrists of those times famous at rome , horace , iuvenall , persius and the rest . now of these iewes at rome it pleased god to convert some to the christian faith , as well as some of the gentiles . wee are likewise to remember that while the ceremoniall law of moses was in force , the iewes conceived themselves as strictly bounde to the observances of meates and dayes , and other ordinances of moses , as of the decalogue , unlesse in such cases as wherein the observing of them was against a morall duty . for then that of the prophet took place , i will have mercy and not sacrifice , as our saviour determines mat. . . whereupon the godly iewes made conscience of obedience to the ceremoniall lawes , as to other morall precepts . when in a vision all manner of foure footed beasts of the earth , & wild beasts , and creeping things and foules of the aire were presented to peter to kill and eate , he replyed , not so lord , for i have never eatē any thing that is common or unclean acts. . . hence they thought thēselves bound rather to suffer any torment , than to eat so much as a bit of swines flesh , as appears in the example of eleazar , and the mother and her seaven sons , in the historie of the maccabees . . maccab. ch . . & . wherefore when the gospell began to bee preached , and the ceremonies of moses his law to bee disclaimed , and neglected , much contention arose betweene the christians that were of the circumcision , and those of the gentiles , concerning the necessity of observing moses law : in so much that it was thought necessary to call a counsell of the apostles and elders at hierusalem to decide this difference . acts. . so that although by christs death the necessity of observing them was taken away : and the gospell being promulgated , their observation became dangerous , as we read gal. . yet such esteem had the ceremonies of the law gotten , partly by their originall institution , and partly tractu temporis , by a long tract of time in which they had stood in force , that many christians not sufficiently instructed in their liberty feared to neglect or break them after their initiation into christianity : as on the other side those that were well instructed in their liberty did neglect them securely , they made no scruple of eating meates , of neglecting new moones , and the like festivalls . and thus was it among the romans when s. paul wrot this epistle to them . there were some that would not eat meats prohibited by moses law , but rather eat hearbes ; nor would they omit the observation of dayes , as not knowing their liberty therein , so that if it happened they did eat such meats , or neglect such dayes it was with doubting and regrete of conscience . these the apostle calleth weake brethren , weake in the faith . others there were among the romans , who made no question of eating any sort of meats , nor regarded dayes as knowing they had lawfull liberty therein . and these are called strong in the faith by the apostle : now if this diversity had been onely in practise , or opinion , it had been somewhat tollerable . but the difference in opinion , and deformity in practise bred among them ( as usually it doth ) discord and division . for whereas christian charity and holy wisdome should have prevented all quarrell between them , all harming each other , contrariwise it so fell out that the strong despised the weak as more scrupulous then needed , and the weak with an aggrieved mind judged the strong as licentious , and unholy ; and whereas sometimes the weake by the example of the strong might bee induced to doe that which , though lawfull , they doubted whether it were so or not , their consciences were thereby wounded . to ease the christians of this grievance the apostle as an equall arbitrator thus decides the controversy . in this case , the strong should take to them the weake in faith , shewing kindnesse & love to them , but not imprudently intangle them with disputes which bred more doubts in them , while they sought to cure their errour about meats and dayes : that they should not despise or sleight them for their weaknesse , but shew them all respect as believers : that they should enjoy their knowledge to themselves , but not use their liberty to the grievance of their brethrē : that they should not so looke to their own much content in the use of their priviledge as to damnifie their brethren , and to would their conscience . on the other side the apostle admonisheth the weake , that they neither censure nor judge their brethren , in the use of their liberty , nor yet venture upon the use of their lawfull liberty , with doubting consciences , but bee sure that they bee well resolved in their judgements afore they enter on the practise . concerning the other scripture in which the apostle sets downe his resolutions in point of scandals the case was thus , corinth was an eminent beautifull citty called by tully lumen graeciae , the eye of greece , but a pagan citty . in which the people were wont to worship idols of iupiter , mars , minerva &c. to these they built temples , and offered sacrifices of oxen and other beasts , as wee read they would have done at lystra . acts. . . of these oxen and other sacrifices some part of the flesh the priests of the idols had for their share : some part was eaten by the people that offered , at the feasts called lectisterma in the idols temple , some part was perhaps sold in the shambles , and bought by any that would , and eaten in private houses . concerning idolothytes or things sacrificed to idols : it was the sin of the israelites in shittim , numb . . . psal. . . that they did eat the sacrifices of the dead . and revel . . . in the epistle to the church of pergamus the angell of that church is accused that there were some that held the doctrine of balaam to eat things sacrificed to idols , and in the apostles decree it was given in charge to christians . acts. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . to abstaine from things sacrificed to idols , called v : . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the pollutions of idols . now it pleased god to gather to himselfe in corinth much people by the ministery of s. paul , acts. . . although in that , as in other citties where christians were a part remained infidels . the converted christians were for the most part of the meaner sort of people , as the apostle tells them , . cor. . . yee see your calling brethren , how that not many wise men after the flesh , not many mighty , not many noble are called . in this calling it happened that sometime the wife was converted to the christian faith , the husband remaining in unbeliefe ; sometime the husband converted , the wife unconverted , sometime the servant converted , and not the master , the child and not the father , this man a christian , his next neighbour a pagan , as appeares by the apostles suppositions . . cor. . . &c. insomuch that christians were mingled with pagans , as in some countries , turks and christians , iewes & christians , or as in england protestants & papists , excepting that the pagans were the greater number , & more potent party . this vicinity , and these relations caused a necessity of civill converse betweene them : for otherwise the christians must needes goe out of the world . . cor. . . these things likewise occasioned the pagans sometimes to invite the christians to goe with them to their feasts at the idols temple : sometimes to their owne tables . the meat that was dressed at their feasts and other meales sometimes happened to be such meat as had beene offered before in sacrifice to the idoll , either bought in the shambles , or sent by a neighbour as a gift . the christians were of divers sorts , some that had knowledge . cor. . . some that had not the same measure of knowledge , but were weak , had weak consciences v. . . the case standing thus , the doubt was how the christians in the citty of corinth were to carry themselves upon these occasions . the resolution of the apostle is this . that they might by no meanes eat idolothytes or things sacrificed to idols , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the idols temple . for that is to partake of the table of devils . . cor. . . an idoll service , and likewise a scandall to a weake brother to embolden him to eat those things which are offered to idols . . cor. . . and so this scandalizing is by evill example , in a thing manifestly evill . but if christians were invited to a private house by an unbeleever , they might goe , and eat the meat that had been offered to idols , either wittingly , or unwittingly , or if the meat offered to the idoll were to bee sold in the shambles they might buy it , dresse it , eat it asking no question for conscience sake . for the earth being the lords , and the fulnesse thereof , the flesh by the offering to the idoll could not bee so alienated from him , but that gods people might eat it as gods creature given them for foode . neverthelesse if any were present , that being weake in knowledge should think it unlawfull to eat such meat , and by saying , this is offered in sacrifice to idols , should intimate to thee his opinion of unlawfullnesse to eat it , and his griefe to see thee partake of it , in this case the christian were to forbeare eating to avoyde offence , which might bee taken by his brother , being grieved , or else by his example in eating that meat which hee knew to be offered to an idol , emboldened to thinke that in some sort he might communicate with an idolater in idol-service , that there is no unreconcileable difference betweene paganisme and christianity . which might easily happen to a weak christian not fully instructed in the truth of his christian liberty , how farre it extendeth , and where it endeth . in this briefe manner i have as rightly and clearly as i could , gathered the matters of those chapters : from whence wee may draw sundry things usefull for the resolving of questions incident to this point , to which i now hasten ; where first it may be asked , who are bound to avoyde scandalizing of others by their use of their liberty in things lawfull ? answ. whereto the answere is : all christians as christians : for this is a fruit of christian charity which all are bound to have . they that are called to liberty are not to use their liberty for an occasion to the flesh , but by love to serve one another . gal. . . the same god that hath by his letters patents given his people so ample a priviledge , as leave to use all indifferent things , hath thought good neverthelesse to limit it by the law of charity . a second question may be , whether a christian be bound to avoyde scandalizing of evill , or unbelieving persons by the use of this liberty ? answ. whereto i answer : that although the apostle in the places rom. . and . cor. . which i called the seat of this argument , speak only of not scandalizing our weake brother by the use of our liberty , that being sufficient for the present occasion : yet in the conclusion of his dispute . . cor. . . hee chargeth christians to give none offence neither to the iewes , nor to the gentiles , nor to the church of god , but as he himselfe did , who pleased all men in all things , not seeking his owne profit , but the profit of many that they might bee saved . which rule of s. paul is conformable to the practise of our lord christ who payd tribute money to the collectors who were neither themselves , nor their masters any of christs disciples , but evill persons , and that for this end least he should offend them . mat. . . and if the scripture require ( as it doth . pet. . . and that of women ) good conversation that those who obey not the word may without the word bee wonne by good conversation , undoubtedly for the same reason it requires we should not scandalize them by abuse of our liberty , least they bee farther off , from being wonn . there is a kind of charity or love due to them , and consequently some care of not offending them . there 's not due the same tendernesse of offending an unbeliever or evill person as of a christian brother ; but as there is due to a christian brother a more affectionate love , so likewise a more tender regard of not scandalizing him . servants are to bee carefull of not hurting their masters cattle , but most carefull of their children : so ought christians to bee carefull of not offending evill men , who are gods creatures , but most carefull not to offend the godly , who are his children . yet that the resolution of this question may be more full , i conceive , that unbelievers ▪ or evill persons are differently considerable in this matter of not scandalizing them , according to the diversity of their estrangednesse from the true faith , or obedience . for , . there are some who though they yet professe not the truth , nor shew themselves to be regenerate , have yet some beginnings of affection to the truth we professe , and the obedience we practise : that are lesse vitious , more inclinable to hearken to the truth then some others that begin to perceive some part of the truth . as our saviour said of the scribe that answered him discreetly , telling him , that to love the lord with all the heart , and with all the understanding , and with all the soule , and with all the strength , and to love our neighbour as our selves is more then all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices ( whereby hee shewed that he had not the dreggs of pharisaisme in him , which was to conceive themselves righteous by observing the outward ceremonies , and duties of the law ) that hee was not farre from the kingdome of god : mark. . . now of such we are to bee tender that we scandalize not them by intempestive use of our liberty . if a nicodemus among the pharisees be but a listner to his doctrine , our saviour thinks good not to reject him , but to draw him on further : if a papist yet remaining in the roman church begin to mislike the idolatry of that church , their magnifying their owne merits &c. and yet out of a reverend esteem though erroneous of the church of romes orders mislikes the eating of flesh on a friday , charity should make me rather forbeare in such a ones presence to eat flesh at such a time then to give occasion to such a one to count our religion licentious , and thereby estrange him the further from the truth . for sith a principall end of not offending our brother by the abuse of our liberty , is that wee may seeke his profit , that he may bee saved , if in true judgement , or our opinion , the not scandalizing him would tend to that end , we ought to forbeare our liberty , that wee may not offend him . it being a sure rule , finis dat mediis ordinem , mensuram , & amabilitatem . the end gives order , measure , and desireablenesse to the meanes thereto tending . . some unbelieving , evill , or unregenerate persons are further off from the kingdome of god being plaine , and professed adversaries to the way of truth , and righteousnesse , but yet not out of wilfull malice , but blinde zeale . as the iewes of whom the apostle speaks , that they had a zeale of god , though not according to knowledge . rom. . . now the scandalizing of such men is not so much to bee regarded as of the former : because there is lesse likelyhood that our forbearing our liberty should alter their judgements , or practise , yet for as much as according to the nature of vehement persons out of ignorance though they bee impetuously carried in that they doe , yet if they discover their errour they are as soone turned : therefore it is probable that some yielding to them may win upon their affections , and make way for such insinuation as may give opportunity to discover to them the truth , we ought so far to abstain from our liberty as not to confirm them in hard conceits of the truth , and so farre to please them in the use of our lawfull liberty , as may serve to make way for the recovering of them out of errour . as for example sake : if wee should meet with a zealous papist that never understood the truth of our profession : but is an adversary to it upon misinformation of his priest , his parents , acquaintance , as that our religion is meere novellisme , carnall , licentious &c. we ought so farre to abstaine from our lawfull liberty , or to please him in a thing lawfull which he affects , as in our apprehension we conceive may make way to our reducing him into the right way . and this i find agreable to the apostles resolution . . cor. . . . . . though i bee free from all men , yet have i made my selfe servant unto all , that i might gaine the more . and unto the iewes i became as a iew , that i might gain the iewes : to them that are under the the law as under the law , that i might gaine them that are under the law . to them that are without law , as without law ( being not without law to god , but under the law to christ ) that i might gaine them that are without law : to the weak became i as weak , that i might gain the weak . i am made all things to all men , that i might by all means save some . lively exemplifications of which professions were his practise of taking a vow on him related act. . of his forbearing his power , . cor. . . . thess. . . . wherein he did not shew hypocriticall policy , like those that proteus-like can transform themselves into any shape for evill purposes : but serpentine wisdome joyned with dove-like innocency , commended by our saviour mat. . . the end being not his own advantage but the salvation of others . . some are adversaries to the truth out of malice , being setled therein , by love of unrighteousnesse , and hatred of righteousnesse . the converting of these being in a sort desperate , the scandalizing of them by the use of our liberty is not to bee regarded . our saviours example mat. . . is a sufficient rule to direct us in this case . when the pharisees were offended because of his doctrine , that that which goeth into the mouth defiles not a man , our saviour bids let them alone ; sith they are wilfull , and incurable , let them fall into the ditch . t is true wee are bound by gods law not willingly to provoke any to anger , much lesse to provoke any greater sinne in him : but rather to avoyde such things as may cause these evills . but when we meet with such enemies as being wholly possessed by satan , are setled in their enmity against us , and the truth we professe : wee then are to be carelesse of offending them by enjoying our conveniency , as knowing that our restraint may be uncomfortable to us and unprofitable to them . a third question may be : whether strong ones may bee scandalized by the use of christian liberty ? aquin. ª , ae , q. . art . . propoundes this question , whether passive scandall may befall the perfect , and hee denies it , alleaging a sayng of s. hierome , majores scandala ▪ non patiuntur : those that are stronger suffer not scādals . but i conceive ther 's need of a fuller answer . that the strongest may bee tempted by scandall is no question . our saviour was tempted by a scandalous advice of peter to forsake the worke which he had received from his father , and for which he came into the world . that men of great strength for knowledge , and godlines , may bee overcome by scandall , the falls of david , solomon , and others shew . the best strength of a christian is but weakenesse without a continued supply of strength from above . but concerning a scandall from the use of christian liberty it may either arise from an evill will , jealousie , prejudice , whereby the mind prepossessed is offended with that which another doth : or else it may arise from ignorance of the lawfulnes of such liberty . scandall proceeding from the former motives may bee in them that are strong in knowledge , or in the faith . evill will or evill prejudice may cause such a one to misinterpret another mans action , and to take offence thereat . but this offence comes à malo ingenio , from an ill mind in him , wanting charity and wisdome , & therefore he is in true estimation the scandalizer of himselfe . as for scandall of the latter sort from ignorance the strong are not liable to it . for if a man be strong he is sufficiently instructed in the truth of our liberty , and therefore mistakes it not , nor excepts against it . a fourth question may be : who are to be accounted weak brethren whom we may not scandalize by the use of our christian liberty ? i answer : in the apostles reasonings in the chapters before abridged , those are reputed weake brethren who either because of their late conversion had not time to learn the doctrine of christian liberty , or otherwise for want of right information knew it not . it is the speech of dr ames l. . de consci . c. . § . . pusilli habendi sunt illi qui non sunt sufficienter instituti circa libertatem nostram : they are to be accounted little or weak-ones , who are not sufficiently instructed about our liberty . and for this hee cites . cor. . . and indeed in that place the apostle opposeth the strong to them that have not knowledge . whence it followes that those that have been taught the doctrine of christian liberty , and yet are offended are not the weake ones of whom the apostle speaks . for if after instruction they still stumble it hath more of wilfulnes in it thē of weaknesse , if they may be said to be weak , yet not meerly weak , because their ignorance is either from negligence , or aversnesse of minde , and so is ignorance affected , or weaknes ex prava dispositione , out of an ill disposition . dr ames , ubi supra , § . . tels us they may be accounted weake to whom the reason of our liberty hath bin rendred . for they may be not capeable of conceiving . which speech of his hath need of further consideration . for the incapacity he speakes of may bee conceived to be either from weaknesse of naturall parts of understanding : and indeed such incapacity may make men weake notwithstanding instruction : but then it is not to bee imagined , but that they which have naturall parts sufficient to conceive the mysteries of faith , have naturall parts sufficient to conceive the doctrine of the lawfulnesse of christian liberty : if they can understand the one , they may understand the other : if they understand neither , they may bee termed more rightly infidels , then weake in faith ; blind , then dimme-sighted : or else such incapacity as he speaks of may arise out of preconceived opinions , alienation of mind , prejudice against the teacher , è studio partium , from an addictednes to some peculiar party , or frō such other cause . for such motes or beames rather in mens eyes will marre their sight of that which they should perceive , and so make them uncapeable for the time of discerning that which is right . but then it is to bee considered , that this incapacity is vitious and voluntary , at least ratione causae : in respect of the cause of it , and therefore such persons are not to be reputed such weak ones as the apostle speakes of , who were simple hearted , not wilfull , whereas these are rather wilfull then weake , and have more in them of evill will , than of little wit. and this may bee knowne by sundry signes of their perversenesse . as namely by unwillingnes to be taught in the truth of christian liberty contrary to their opinions : despising all that is said or written to cleare that truth , which is against their minds : declining the hearing or reading of that which is said for it , or hearing and reading unequally , not weighing or considering the one , but with rashnesse continuing in the former , perverting , misconstruing , misreporting , that which is written or spoken , keeping in the same time after such declaration as might convince , wrangling , and censuring , & quarrelling with those that vary from them , zeale for their own opinion , resolution even to suffering for their way . by which and such like signes mens wilfull weaknesse may bee discerned from simple ignorance . a fift question may be , what effect upon the use of our liberty , either consequent or likely to be consequent , is necessary to make the use of our liberty a scandalizing of our brother ? in answer whereto it is needfull that that be remēbred which i declared before ch. . § . . in the explication of the definition of scandall , to wit , that ruine or falling which is made the adequate effect of scandall , must be understood both in a primary , and a secondary sense , and that the action causing either sorte of ruine may be called scandall ; so that if by the use of our liberty , we either draw our brother to speciall sinne , as by eating meats offered to idolls , to be partakers of idoll-service , or hinder them in their progresse of grace , or cause them to fall away , or cause discords , schismes , alienation of affections , it is scandall . for any of these effects are sufficient to make our brother stumble , offend or be weake , which are forbidden by the apostle as the effects of scandalizing rom. . . whereto we are to adde , that it is plaine by the . verse , that the grieving of our brother by our eating is a scandalizing , though as i said before , in a secondary acception . in that speech of abigail to david , . sam. . . that which our translators read [ griefe of heart ] is if the heb. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , scandall or stūbling of heart . but if there be any other effect unpleasing , as simple dislike by dissent in opiniō without griefe i finde not that such effect is sufficient for the denomination of a scandall . for the apostle doth not speak of that effect in the places where he treats of scandalizing : nor doth it produce any hurt to our brother , unlesse it proceed to some further evill . so that if a christian should doe that , as suppose weare such fashion of cloaths , which his brother hath an opinion that it is not convenient or lawfull , and therefore dislikes it , yet because the thing is doubtfull , wisely keeps himselfe from mourning for it , censuring him , with drawing affection and communion from him , i think such a christian should not by wearing of that fashion be said to scandalize his brother . but if through weaknesse he be grieved at it , then it is scandalizing of him that is so grieved . a sixth question may be : how long we are to forbeare the use of our liberty for feare of scandall ? answ. aqu. ª ae qu. . art . . resolves that the scandall of weak ones is to be avoided quousque reddita ratione scandalum cesset . si autem post redditam rationem hujusmodi scandalum duret jam videtur ex malitia esse , that is , untill a reason being rendred the scandall may cease . but if after a reason given such a scandall continue , it then seemes to be of malice . peter martyr loc . com . class . . c. . imo neque semper in ipsis mediis rebus &c. yet we may not alwaies yeeld unto the weak in things indifferent , but only untill they be more perfectly taught : but when they have understood , and yet still stand in doubt , their infirmity is not to be borne . bucan . loc . com . . quaest . . rerum mediarum usum ad proximi adhuc ex ignorantia infirmi , & in christi schola pusilli , captum moderemur , idque , tantisper dum rudes isti possunt erudiri : we ought to moderate our use of things indifferent to the capacity of our neighbour as yet weak by ignorance , and a little one in the schoole of christ , and that so long untill such ignorant persons may be instructed . the reason of which resolution is , because after instruction in true interpretation of reason , as i said before in answer to the fourth question , they that are scandalized are accounted rather wilfull then weake , and therefore not to bee regarded . whereto i adde that unlesse wee pitch here , there can be no certain rule given when men are weake , when froward : when we must forbeare our liberty , when we may use it . yet by instruction , or giving a reason , i mean not a meere magisteriall avowing of our liberty , much lesse a jesting at the weaknesse of him that doubts of it , but an humble , loving , and solid manifestation of it , to the understanding of the weake . a seaventh question may be : whether that a man may be guilty of sinfull scandall in the use of his liberty , it be not requisite that he should have some foresight , or preconceite of it , or at least such particular advertisement of the scandall consequent , as if he had heeded it he might have prevented the scandall ? ans. whereto i answere , that if a man use his liberty , and such scandall follow as he did neither foresee , nor imagine would follow , nor had any advertisement of it fit to foremind him of it , sin is not to be laid to his charge in respect of such unexpected and unthought of scandall . in this case it may be infortunium non peccatum , his mishap that his action should occasion anothers hurt , but not his sinne , to whom the scandall was by no default of his , no defect of charity , but by meere nescience in a sort unavoidable . this answer may be gathered from the apostles resolution , . cor. . . . in which the apostle tells the corinthians , that if any of thē that believe not should bid them to a feast , and they were disposed to goe , they might eate whatsoever was set before them , asking no question for conscience sake . but if any man should say to them . this is offered in sacrifice to idols , they were not to eate , for his sake that shewed it , and for conscience sake , yet not his owne conscience , for he might use his liberty in respect of his own conscience , who knew the meat offered to the idoll , to bee still neverthelesse gods creature , whose the earth is and the fulnesse thereof ; but the others conscience , who was ready to conceive some honour given to the idoll by eating the idolothyte . now from hence it is plain , that if there had bin none to give notice of the exception of the weake , there would have been no sin in him that had eaten though offence had followed , which argues that then a man onely is guilty of sin in the scandall consequent on the use of his liberty , when he hath had fore-notice thereof . adde hereto that the scandalizing of weak brethren reprehēded ro. . is called a despising , or setting at nought of a brother , ver . . . which implies manifest knowledge , that the weake were apt to bee grieved by the strong ones eating of meats : yea in reason , and agreeably to the cases resolved . rom. . . cor. . & . ch . it 's not a mans sin unlesse he know the futurition of the scandall with some morall certainty , so that if it fall out though we conceive it not likely it would , our consciences need not to be troubled for that accident : because however factes done by ignorance of those precepts which god hath enjoyned are sinnes : yet contingent events not foreseene by us , cannot make those facts of ours which are otherwise lawfull , to become sinfull though the event be harmefull . god who hath tied us to know his will which he hath enjoyned us , hath not tied us to know these accidents , which caliginosa nocte premit , he reserves in his own breast . as it is in slaying by meere chance mentioned deut. . . the killing of a man is a grievous misfortune , and in that respect to be lamented , but not a sinne , nor in that respect be repented : so in like manner such casuall scandall ( as i may so call it ) is to be bewailed as a mishap , but not to be mourned for as a sinne . an eight question may be : whether the restraint of using our liberty by reason of scandall be universall ? ans. no : scandall upon the use of our liberty , restraines us only hic & nunc : in this place at this time : it doeth not take away , but suspand the use of our liberty . so that though a man may not use his liberty where and when there are persons apt to be scandalized : yet he may where & when there are none , or he knowes of none that are apt to be scandalized . in such cases the reason of the restraint ceasing , the restraint ceaseth . and this is agreeable to the apostles determination . cor. . . . resolving that a man that might not eate meate offered to an idoll , when it was shewed him by another that it was an idolothyte , had yet his liberty of his own conscience entire : which were not true if he might eate at no time such meat , because he might not eate it at that time . to conceive otherwise inferres this absurdity , that the likelyhood , or accident of one scandall utterly extinguisheth his gratious chartter of christian liberty in that thing by which he was or might be once a scandalizer . a ninth question may be : whether there may be scandall by omission of the use of our liberty in a thing indifferent ? ans. omission i oppose here to positive action : as for instance , eating meats allowed by god is a positive action , and the use of our liberty : not eating that which we might is a privation and omission of the use of our liberty . now that a man may be guilty of sinfull scandall by the omission of a duty i determined before , c. . § . . to which i adde that sith the lawfull magistrate hath power about indifferent things to restraine , or require our use of our liberty for the publique good , and we are bound to make conscience of obeying such cōmands , not for the things sake so commanded , for that is in it selfe indifferent , but by reason of the authority to which god hath made us subject , and the end for which such orders are established , which all members of a common-wealth ought to seeke : therefore the omission of doing such things commanded is an omission of a duty ( rebus sic positis ) and the scandall consequent upon it , a scandall of the first sort , to wit of sinfull example . moreover for a punctuall answer to the present question , i conceive that there may be scandall by the forbearing the use of our liberty , when that forbearing though otherwise lawfull , occasions men to conceive some alienation of affection , some evill intentions , some superstition , or the like evill in them who doe forbeare it , our saviour math. . . would have tribute mony paid for himselfe , & peter , though he were free , and that because the not-paying would offend them . s. peters not-eating with the gentiles was a scandall to barnabas gal. . . frequent experience confirmes it that the forbearing of some actions which are in their kind indifferent , at some times doth grieve weak brethren , and offend others , when they are apt to conceive such forbearance to arise out of a malevolent minde , superstitious opinion , humour of singularity , contempt of others , or the like cause . a tenth question may be : whether a community , a nation , the publique magistrate may be scandalized ? ans. the use of excommunicatiō presupposeth that scandall may be of the whole church by sinfull actions of one member . yea further it is determined art . . of the church of england . whosoever through his private judgement willingly and purposely doth openly breake the traditions , and ceremonies of the church , which bee not repugnant to the word of god , and be approved , and ordained by common authority ought to be rebuked openly ( that other may feare to doe the like ) as he that offendeth against the common order of the church , and woundeth the consciences of the weak brethren . moreover experience shewes that whole nations or societies are sometimes offended with those who observe not their customes , or orders , which are in their use indifferent , and not confirmed by any publique ordinance , but by use only received : and that such varying from them occasions anger , enmity , and such like evills . an eleventh question may be : whether sith the magistrates authority is one way of restraining or requiring the use of our liberty , and the danger of scandall another , upon supposition , that the lawfull magistrate cōmands the doing or omitting of that which is indifferent , & on the other side there is danger of scandalizing , the question is which of these respects i am to be ruled by ? ans. there is no doubt , but that a good and wise magistrate will remit in many cases the rigour of discipline to avoide scandall , as i said before § . . as the love-feasts , kisse of peace , vigils at the tombes of martyrs , and other orders of the church were in processe of time evacuated , when they occasioned scandall . but if the magistrate doe not suspend his cōmands , then it is a hard case . for either on the one side there is danger of nullifying the power of the magistrate , or on the other side of wounding or destroying our brother : possibly it may so fall out that a mans cōscience may without much difficulty winde it selfe out of this streight , by finding some circumstances prepōderating either one way or other . as for ininstance , if the magistrats command bee about a matter of great consequence , for the safety of the common-wealth , to avoid a present evill : or if it be in a smaller matter if urged peremptorily , & vehemently , on the other side the effect of the scandall be not likely to bee plain apostacy , or the like great sinne , but some grievance of mind , or discontent of the party scandalized , it is without doubt that then the magistrates command is to be performed . on the contrary , if the magistrates command be in a smaller matter , not bringing any great evil , nor likely to infringe the power of authority though the command be not followed , if it be not peremptorily , and strictly , but remissely urged : on the other side , the effect of scandall of the greatest sort of evills , very probable , and in a manner present , giving no time to finde a way to redresse it , then in this case the danger of scandall may prevaile for that time . but if we make the scales even : and propound the case thus : what if the danger of scandall be great , and manifest , on the one side , and the magistrate peremptory in his command , and the thing commanded of great moment on the other side , the doubt is , whether of these two is to bee regarded ? i determine that the magistrates command should in this case sway our consciences : and that for these reasons following . . because by the magistrates command the thing required is made a necessary duty though in it selfe indifferent . for the command that ties every soule to bee subject to the higher powers , rom. . . requires obedience to them , which is the chiefest part of subjection . and this obligation of obedience is antecedent to the consideration of the scandall . for the sanction of the law precedes the accident of scandall . now in things that are our duties wee must not omit them , or neglect them for feare of scandals . therefore the magistrates command in the case propounded is not to be neglected for feare of scandall . against this argument dr ames . lib. . de consci . c. . § . . seems to except in these words : nulla authorit as humana &c. no authority of man can either take away the nature of scandall from that which otherwise should bee scandall , or the nature of sinne from scandall given . for no man can command our charity and consciences . vel periculum scandali dati praestare , which i render thus , or countervaile , or be preferred before the danger of scandall given . whereto i reply that it is not true that the lawfull authority of the magistrate may not in things indifferēt make the doing of that action not to bee a scandall given , which otherwise might bee . for if it may make the thing commanded a duty by vertue of the command , the scandall consequent will bee passive , or taken ; not active , or given . as we determine of preaching , and many other duties that they are to bee done though scandall follow : so we are to say of obedience to the magistrate in that wherein god hath made us subject to him wee are to obey him , though scandall follow . if it bee said that preaching is a duty immediately enjoyned by god , the doing of that which the magistrate commands only mediately : i answer . though it bee true that for this reason the thing which the magistrate commands is not so strictly our duty , as that which god commands : the magistrates commands belonging only to his owne subjects , gods commands to all : the magistrates constitutions binding us only in reference to a superiour authority , and a superiour end , the publique good , and therefore when they are contrary to the law of god , or nature , when there is some pressing necessity that cannot bee avoyded by reason of which wee cannot doe the thing commanded , if the necessity bee true , and not fained , and the not-doing of the magistrates command be without contempt of authority , or ill example to others , or if the thing commanded should be in truth plainely contrary to the publique good , as it may happen sometimes some commands may , if strictly urged , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to the letter , but gods commands binde absolutely , without limitation . i say though for these reasons the thing which the magistrate commands be not our dutty so strictly as that which god immediately commands : yet when it is a duty ( as it is when it opposeth not gods law , the law of nature , or the publique safety ) there is a necessity of obeying the command of the magistrate , as of obeying gods immediate precepts : nor may the one bee omitted to avoyde scandall any more then the other . as for that which is said that the magistrate cannot restraine our charity . 't is true : for charity is an inward affection of the soule , which none but god can command , as none but hee can search , and punish , yet the magistrate may restraine the shewing of our charity somewayes , as in forbidding to relieve malefactors , rebels , vagrants &c. so that hee should sin that should preferre such a worke of charity , before a worke of obedience to the governour , which is a worke of piety to a publique person , and the father of the countrey : whereas the other is to a private person of common respect . but the magistrate cannot command our consciences . answ. that the commands of men doe in no sort bind the conscience , cannot bee said without contradicting of s. paul. rom. . . ye must needes bee subject not onely for wrath , but also for conscience sake : they that say least for governours , say they may by their lawes binde the conscience mediately , and by vertue of gods precept , although not immediately and of themselves . now this is enough to prove that it is the duty of christians to doe the lawful commands of the magistrate . as for that which is said that the danger of scandall is before the disobedience to the commands of men . i suppose not : for the evill by disobeying of the magistrate is as certaine , if not more certaine then the evill of scandall , the evill of scandall more remediable then the evill that followes on the disobeying the magistrates command : for the one is likely onely some transeunt harme in the mind or conscience of the scandalized person , the other a constant permanent harme in the common wealth , such as many times overthrowes government , and in fine dissolveth a commonwealth : the one usually extends to few , the other to the whole community . and it is taken for a plain truth . praestat ut pereat unus , quam unitas . or as caiaphas once said , it is expedient that one should dye for the people , and that the whole nation perish not . io. . . adde hereto that there is a scandalizing of the publique magistrate and others by disobedience , as § . . was determined , which is as regardable as well as the scandalizing of private persons , unlesse too much partiall respect sway men , that they will not judge righteous judgement . . i argue thus , if it be not determined that the obeying of the magistrates command were to bee preferred before the declining of scandall , that may happen by such obedience , then it will follow that both the magistrate is bound to revoke or suspend his lawes , when there is likely-hood of scandall to follow . for he is not to urge men to doe that which is evill ; now this would make all governours that make conscience of their commands almost perpetually uncertaine , whether they may command any thing or no : or make their constitutions invalid , sith they can seldome make any orders , but that scandals will arise , as experience in all ages hath proved . and subjects also shall have power to neglect such constitutions , and so to make them as no lawes in the same case . the consequent of which being granted , i suppose can bee no lesse then anarchy , and confusion . the mischiefe of which is greater then i can expresse , and such as the avoyding of scandalizing of some soules cannot countervaile : wherefore as it is said in the case of exacting an oath of a persō , that ( it's likely ) will forsweare himselfe . fiat justitia & ruat coelum . let justice proceed , though the heaven fall : so say i , let goverment stand though subjects bee scandalized . . lastly , if a man in doing any lawfull thing make it knowne that hee must doe it by reason of the command of authority , or it bee otherwise manifest that that is indeed the reason of his doing , surely he that is offended is rather unrighteous , and evill minded , then weake , that will think that lawes must bee broken to please him : and therefore the scandalizing of such not regardable . a twelfth question may be : if it fall out that in the doing or omitting of a thing indifferent some will bee scandalized if it be done , others if omitted , some offended if it be done this way , some offēded if not done this way , so that there is apparent danger of scandall either way , what is to be done in such a case ? ans. d. ames . l. . de conscientia . c. . § . . denies the case and sayes , nulla datur talis perplexitas , ut necessarium sit pio homini sive hoc vel illu à faciat , sive non faciat scandalum alicui dare : there can bee no such perplexity , that it should bee necessary for a godly man , whether he doe this or that or not doe it to scandalize some one . which assertion of his is both against experience , and reason . against experience : for the contrary fell out in s. peters case , gal. . . in which it is plaine in the carriage of that matter , that if he did eat with the gentiles he was in danger of scandalizing the iewes , if hee did not eate with them to scandalize the gentiles . and it falls out too frequently in our own dayes , that in the use of some rites in themselves indifferent , some are offended with the use of them as popish , some with the not using them as arguing the affectation of novellisme and singularity : against reason . for sith scandall ariseth from the opinion that is had of a thing indifferent , when the action of him that offendeth dasheth against it , and it is undoubted that even godly men , may have opposite opinions of things indifferent , one thinking them fit , another unfit : one thinking them needfull , another evill , it is plaine in reason that it may so fall out that the doing or not doing of somthing indifferent may crosse the one or the other of the opposite opinions , and so scandalize either the one or the other . the resolution of calvin , epist. . is right and good , that a scandall of a few must not sway us in a thinng not repugnant to gods word . vbi major numerus pervincit , where the greater part is on the cōtrary , no not though it draw an evil consequence after it . and in like manner may it be said , ubi potior numerus pervincit , where the better part is on the contrary , as the governor , the most wise , learned , and faithfull christians . likewise consideration should be had to offend those rather whose offence is easier remedied , or the consequēce of their scandall lesse pernitious , then those whose offence is more hardly redressed , or the consequence of their scandall more pernitious . for in such cases prudence must rule our consciences to respect primarily the more considerable par , & to avoyd the more dangerous consequences . a thirteenth question may be : it may so fall out that either by the frequent , or incommodious forbearing of the use of our liberty at some time , our lawfull liberty may be so indangered , that an opinion may thereby be setled as if it were unlaw-full simply , which we forbeare onely by reason of the feare of scandall , or as if it were necessary which wee onely doe to avoyde scandall , what is a christian to doe in this case ? answ. the example of s. paul is commonly by divines produced as a resolution of this question . we read acts. . . that paul tooke and circumcised timothy to avoyd the offence of the iewes though the law of circumcision , and other legall ceremonies were then abolished : and hee had liberty to omit it . but hee tells us gal. . . . that titus was not compelled to be circumcised , and that because of false brethren unawares brought in , who came in privily to spye out our liberty , which we have in christ iesus , that they might bring us into bondage . to whom saith he : v. . we gave place by subjection no not for an houre , that the truth of the gospell might continue with them . while the liberty of uncircumcision was unchallenged he did with security circumcise timothy to avoyde offence : but when the truth of christian liberty was challenged and endangered he would not yeild to doe the same to titus . from which practise avouched by s. paul , and therefore propounded by the holy ghost as imitable by us , this rule may bee safely inferred : that when by use or disuse of our liberty , the truth of our liberty is in danger to be impeached , wee are then rather to put our selves on the hazard of scandall , then to loose our liberty it selfe . for it is a more pretious thing not to have our consciences in bondage or the truth impaired , then can be countervailed by the pleasing of some men . truth is an unvalluble iewell , which wee are not to forfeit to win mens affections . praestat ut scandalum admittatur , quam veritas amittatur : is the approved rule of s. augustine . better admit scandall then loose truth . a fourteenth question may be : whether if on the one side our life should be indangered by forbearing the use of our liberty , and on the other side there be likely-hood of scandall if we use it , is our liberty to bee used to save our lives , or to be forborn to avoyd scandall ? answ. it is a rule received , which aqu. ª , ae , qu. . art . . cites as out of s. hierome , that that which may be omitted , salvà triplici veritate seil . vitae , justitiae , & doctrinae , a threefold truth of life , righteousnesse and doctrine being preserved , ought to be omitted to avoyde scandall . according to which exception it followes that wee are not to omit our liberty when our life is endangered . and there is plain reason for it , from the precedency of our selves among the objects of charity before others : wee are to love others as our selves , not afore our selves . . in respect of the greatnesse of the danger of loosing our life above the danger of scandall . for , . the danger of loosing life may be more certain in forbearing our liberty , when naturall necessity requires us to use it , then the event of scandall can be , depending on the changeable mind and will of man. . the evill of loosing life is plainely remedilesse : life lost cannot be recovered by man : but the evill of scandall is not simpliciter irremediabile , simply remedilesse , but that instruction , advise , example , prayers may by gods blessing restore the person scandalized . if it were so that it were revealed by god that by using my liberty to save my naturall life , i should inevitably cast my brother into everlasting fire , surely charity bindes mee to loose my life rather then to damne my brother . but this no man doth by using his liberty , at least god reveales no such thing . but what means the apostle then . cor. . . when hee saith ; if meat make my brother to offend , i will eat no flesh while the world standeth , least i make my brother to offend ? i answer : the apostles resolution is not to abandon all meat and dye to avoyd offence : but to eat no flesh , without which he might live . and accordingly wee are to forbeare our conveniences , and priviledges which serve us ad benè esse to our well-being : but not our lives or lively-hood that is necessary ad esse , simpliciter , that wee may have a being . a fifteenth question may be : whether if there appear danger of scandal to some in using our liberty , and likely-hood of opposite good to others by using it , we are to forbeare it ? ans. no : for in this case the use of our liberty to that end is a duty , as being a greater exercise of charity , the scandall being not remedilesse , unlesse by reason of a perverse mind : which kind of scandall is not to be regarded . a sixteenth question may be : whether wee are bound to forbeare the use of our liberty to avoyde the scandall of our weake brother offended with our action as conceiving it evill without any probable ground ? answ. i thinke not . for there was probable ground of the evill of eating the idolothytes . cor. . and of the eating of the meates and neglect of dayes mentioned rom. . and in reason , if a mans conceit without shew of reason on meere fancy shall hinder me in the use of my liberty , my liberty is no liberty in effect . besides if hee conceive ill of my action without some probable reasons moving him therto , his conceit is rather to be interpreted an effect of selfe-will , or ill will then of weaknesse , and so not to be regarded : if it be objected , as frequently it is , that the apostle . thes. . . chargeth christians thus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . abstaine from all appearance of evill , and therefore wee are not to doe that which seemes to bee evill to another , whether upon probable reason or fancy though it be not in it selfe evill . i answere , . that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies the sort or kind of things , answering to genus and species , as cicero renders it , and that tremellius out of the syriak translates it ab omni voluntate malâ fugite , fly from all evill will , that is , as he interprets it in the marginall note , negotio malo , sive re malâ , evill businesse , or evill thing , so that it might be translated , abstaine from every evill thing , or every sort of evill . . that though beza with others read ab omni specie mali , from every appearance of evill : and expound it not only of that which is evill in it selfe , but also of that which though not evill in it selfe , yet seems so to others : yet more plainly according to the originall it is translated by the vulgar and tigurine translators , ab omni specie mala , from every shew which is evill . according to either of which readings this text will prove only that we are to avoide that which is an evill thing or appearance it selfe evill , and makes nothing to prove that we ought to abstaine from a thing or appearance not evill but indifferent . . that chrysostome , the greeke scholiast , and others apply it onely to false doctrines , or lies of false prophets . as if the apostle had said , though you are not to quench the spirit , yet you are to try all doctrines , and to abstaine from that which appears evill : which would be nothing to the abstaining from the use of things indifferent , when they seem evill to another . . but let it be granted , that it is meant of evill appearance in respect of practise , yet it may be doubted whether the apostle means it of that which appears evill to another or to a mans selfe ? surely the series of the text doth best suite with this interpretation . abstaine from that which appears to your selves to be evill : for having said , try all things , whether doctrines or practises , to direct thē what to doe he addes , holde that wich is good , that is what you finde upon triall to be good , and abstaine from all evill appearance , or appearance of evill , which so appears to you upon your triall . which exposition besides that the words of calvin in his commentary imply he so conceived it , hath other learned men that approve it , and so farre as i see into the text seems to be most genuine . now if this exposition stand , it makes nothing for the abstaining from the use of our lawfull liberty which appears evill to another , but from that doctrine or practise which appears to be evill to our selves , that we may not sinne against the light of our own conscience . lastly , if it were granted that the apostle forbiddes us to abstaine from all that which appears to be evill to another , yet no interpreter that i meet with understands it of such appearance of evill , as is conceited to be such upon some erroneous principles in him that conceives it to be such , or by reason of the meere fancy , or rigid austerity , or evill will , or such like cause of him that thinkes it evill : but they usually apply it to such causes or signes of manifest evil as are means of drawing to some notorious sinne , as going to heare a masse , which is a cause and signe of idolatry , or wanton dalliance which is a cause or signe of whoredome . and they apply hereto that saying of iulius caesar , that caesars wise should be free not only from evill , but also from the suspition of it . so that even in their intent , this scripture is not appliable to this purpose , as if the apostle did prohibite a christian to use any thing that another thought evill , whether he thought so upon probable reason , or no reason , upon some ground or none . and to speak truth , the application of this text in that manner as it is by some , as if the apostle did forbid us the use of any thing though indifferent in it selfe , when it appears as evill to another , without farther restraint , is very absurd and so unreasonable as that it will bring a yoake upon mens consciences impossible to be borne , sith there is scarce any thing a man can doe , but some or other , infidell or christian , weake or strong in the faith , orthodoxe or superstitious will think it to be evil , that saying by experience being found true , quot homines , tot sententiae , so many men , so many mindes : nor shall a mans own conscience only make a thing evill to him , but the conscience of any other man in the world . these are the most material questions which have occurred to mee . which having finished , i passe on to application & so to the concluding of this point . first then wee may hence perceive how evill and uncharitable their dispositions are , who use their liberty in things lawfull without heeding of scandall , surely there are every where a great number of men of this temper , that will eate and drinke and play , & cloath themselves , and doe innumerable other acts without the least thought , or regard whether others be pleased or displeased , scādalized , perverted by their actions . alas ! said i they will doe these things without respect of avoiding scandall ? i might have added , there be not a few that make but a jest of scruples concerning scandall , yea that of set-purpose with delight doe such things as they know will offend , that they may provoke and offend their brethren . all such persons doe undoubtedly walke after their owne lusts , who neither for god nor for mans sake deny themselves any thing . it is manifest that it is their lust that rules them , not obedience to god , not charity to men , not advised reason : and it shewes a heart in them ready to doe unlawfull things for their lust , who will doe lawfull things so unlawfully . my brerhren we are most apt to offend in things indifferent : it 's easie to slip from the meane to some extreame or other ; and so much the rather because in such things men usually walke not with much warinesse ; in things plainly evill , mens consciences will easily checke and correct themselves , because the evill is so apparent : but in things indifferent , men fall into evill afore they are aware . wherefore those that are wise-hearted , and right-hearted christians , will so much the more watch themselves in the use of such things : they are carefull neither to offend god , nor men , neither to abuse their priviledges against gods glory , nor their brethrens good ; only men whose lust is their law , will have their sports , feasts , fashions , and the like things in themselves lawfull , after their owne wills , though god be provoked , or their brethren damnified . wherefore it concerns us all to take heed of scandall in the use of our liberty in things indifferent : i meane of scandall both active and passive : and therefore this admonition is to be conceived as pertaining both to them that use their liberty , and them that may be offended with it . . those that are to use their liberty are to take heed that they marre not their good by evill-handling , to wit by using it to destruction , and not to edification of their brethren . our liberty is a great blessing of god : it is no small benefit that we may have his creatures to use , that he hath made us under himselfe lords over the works of his hands : and though he require obedience of us , yet he hath given us a large scope in things after our owne wills , enough to satisfy us if we have any reason : we may eat this or that , weare this or that , dwell here or there , and a thousand more such things are left to our owne choice : but what then ? shall we grow petulant and wanton ? shall we be like an ungracious sonne , who when his father hath put an estate in his hand , followes his owne pleasure , regarding neither parents nor brethren ? god forbid we should thus requite the lord ! nay rather it becomes us , as wee have all our priviledges from god , so to doe as a good child to a kinde father , a generous favorite to a munificent prince , even to lay all our gifts at the donours feet , to devote them all to his honour that gave them freely : to spend that for his service which he hath so frankly endowed us with . it 's to bee remembred that we are not proprietaries , but vsufructuaries of gods creatures : they are his goods still , though put into our hands , to occupy : the earth is still the lords and the fulnes thereof : we may not say of it , wee may doe with our owne as we list . that wee ought to doe which the apostle inferres hereupon , whether wee eat or drinke , or whatsoever we doe , doe all to the glory of god. . cor. . . not forgetting our brethren , but as it is added v. . giving none offence , neither to the iewes , nor to the gentiles , nor to the church of god : or as we are admonished . gal. . . though we are called to liberty , yet not to use our liberty for an occasion to the flesh : but by love to serve one another . it will be but a miserable advantage to vs to vse our liberty , so as to spurn at gods honour , and to trample our brethrens good vnder our feete : to obscure the lustre of gods glory , or to make gashes in our brothers conscience . shall a man because he is strong , kicke the weake under his feet ? shall a man use his owne happines no better , but to make others miserable ? no , no , ( brethren ) : mercy , iustice , charity , our calling , christs example , all these and more then these should teach us better , to seeke not our owne , but one anothers wealth , to use our owne good , so as not to spoyle anothers peace . we are to remember , that as our saviour said , we should have the poore alwayes with us , so it is true also , that we shall have the weake in faith alwayes with us , and therefore it will be a perpetuall duty , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 acts . . to support , not to supplant the weake . — to this end , . get a tender , and compassionate love of thy brother in thy heart : thou art bound to love all men : but thy christian brother chiefly . let the love of christ to thee , and him be thy patterne : he would not breake a bruised reed , nor quench smoaking flaxe : isai. . . he fed his flock like a sheepheard : hee gathered the lambes with his arme and carried them in his bosome , and gently led those that were with young . isai. . . oh get such a tender love , that yee may be as the apostle requires , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rom. . . inclined to tender affectionate kindnesse one to another in brotherly love , that thou maist communicate to them the warmth of thy bosome , that they may have heate by thee , and the kissing of thy mouth , that they may have delight by thee , and the strength of thy armes , that they may have safety by thee , not be exposed by thee to dangers , much lesse bitten and devoured by thee : you are not borne for your selves : you have not your goods only to serve your owne turnes . they are thy bone , and thy flesh , yea thy spirit too , if a christian . if there be any excellency in thee : yet both are of the same kind : if thou differest from him , yet who made thee to differ from him ? or what hast thou that thou hast not received ? love him therefore and despise him not : bee tender over him , and not contemne him : . get much prudence also to know the condition , inclination , minde of thy brother . much charity may make us willing , but there must be much prudence also to make us able to avoyde scandalizing . there 's such variety of dispositions , opinions , and conditions of men that it is no small difficulty o avoyde scandalizing of some one or other . neverthelesse if we doe what lyes in us , the almighty will accept of the integrity of our hearts , and not impute to us our defects of imprudence . and here i could heartily wish that all christians , especially those that are set apart for the ministery of the word , would take heed of one evill to which in these times men are very prone . i meane the teaching of many things to be evill , whose abuse only is evill , not the things themselves , for what ever bee the cause whether it bee facility of sliding into extreames , or unskilfullnesse to distinguish betweene the use and abuse of things indifferent , or the debility that is in many to reason , and to gather right consequences , or the preoccupating of mens minds with erroneous principles , or that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as st basill calls it , the immoderate drawing things to a contrary way , as to think that to be most right which seemes most contrary to popery , prophanesse , or the vitiousnesse of the times , or the addictednesse that is in men to hold that which their affected teachers doe vent , or studium partium , a desire to promote some party , or to have , and to entertaine opinions peculiar to such a party as a cognizance for them to be discerned by from others , or an affectation of singular opinions , i say what ever bee the cause the great charter of christian liberty is too much inlarged by the licentious , who make that indifferent which is evill , or necessary , to the confirming of themselves in sin : and on the other side is too much straitned by others , in making things evill which are not so , expunging that out of this gracious charter , which god hath indulgently granted us therein . both which are contrary to gods precepts , which require us neither to cal good evill , nor evill good . isai. . . to turne neither to the right hand nor to the left . deut. . . and therefore as the one is a trangression against god , plainely violating his precepts : so the other is an intollerable presumption against the soveraigne authority of the great law-maker to impose lawes on mens consciences which god hath not made : and in the effects of it , it is dangerous . for it is in truth a seminary of superstitions , which doe alwayes attend errours of conscience , and the great nursery of scandalls , in intangling mens consciences with unnecessary scruples , disquieting and discomforting men thereby , occasioning the neglect of necessary duties whilst zeale is bent on things unnecessary , raising many jealousies , alienation of affections from others , rash judging , seperation from communion , and a world of other evils , which according to the fruitfullnesse of errour arise from this one roote . wherefore i beseech all christians , specially ministers of the word in the bowells of iesus christ , to bee very well advised either how they allow of that as lawfull which is indeed sinfull , or condemne that as sinfull which is indeed lawfull , and in their invectives against sinne , so to attemperate their speeches , that the abuse and use of things bee distinguished , that corne bee not pulled up for the weeds sake . . as for those that are apt to be scandalized , it concernes them to consider that their taking offence at their brothers liberty is their owne weaknesse , and danger . it 's sure thy weaknesse of judgement , or affection that thou art so apt to stumble at thy brothers actions . and is not weaknesse burden enough to thy selfe , but that it must also become thy brothers burden ? wilt thou make thy ignorance his punishment ? learne better that most necessary lesson , descendere in teipsum , to look into thy selfe , and to know thy selfe : to take a right measure of thy knowledge , and to submit thy selfe to the reasons and judgements of the stronger . it concernes the father to bee indulgent to his childs weakenesse : but the child should learne to submit to the fathers judgement . the stronger should favour the weaker , but the weaker should preferre the stronger before themselves . . it 's thy danger also : how dost thou by such stumbling incommodate thy selfe ! thou mightest learne good by thy stronger brother , thou takest harme : hee might bee a staffe to stay thee , thou makest him a stumbling-block to overthrow thee : he might ease thy conscience , so as to walke more comfortably : thou makest use of him onely to fetter thy conscience that it may walke more heavily : he might heale thy sores : hee doth but wound : ther 's disagreement from that which should promote charity , a breach where there should bee strongest affection . doe not thy selfe so much harme , thy brother so much wrong . to this end receive from me these directions . . acquaint thy selfe with the difference that is to bee made between superstructures and fundamentalls of christian doctrine , whether of faith or practice : know this , that though hee is no true beleever , that beleeves not all gods truth which hee knowes to bee gods truth , nor truly obedient that obeyes not all gods precepts , which hee knowes to be such , yet he may bee a true beleever , and truly obedient , who beleeving and practising fundamentals , things necessary to be knowne and practised by all , yet beleeves not , or practiseth not sundry superstructures , not out of unbeleife of god or enmity to his will , but simple ignorance . bee not then hardly conceited of him that knowes not , or practiseth not through ignorance things not fundamentall , especially if they be remote from the foundation . let not thy zeale be equall for the smaller and the greater matters of the law , as our saviour distinguisheth them , mat. . . . bee not rash or too stiffe in thy opinion , when it is circa disputabilia , about disputable points , such as honest and learned men doe vary in , so that it can bee hardly discerned , who is in the right . let thy conceits of thy selfe be modest : and bee willing to learne from a-any one that which is truth . . be not apt to suspect anothers unsoundnes : iudge not that thou be not judged . mat. . . who art thou that judgest anothers sevant ? rom. . . why dost thou judge thy brother ? wee shall all stand before the judgement seat of christ. vers . . . lastly wherein thou agreest with thy brother , what thou hast learned as he hath done , professe that ; practise that with concord , and waite till god shall joyne you together in one mind , and one way for the rest . remember that golden rule of the apostle . philip. . , . let us therefore as many as be perfect bee thus minded : and if in any thing yee bee otherwise minded , god shall reveale even this unto you . neverthelesse whereto wee have already attained , let us walke by the same rule , let us mind the same thing . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by enticing practises . the next way of scandalizing is by devised practises intended to beguile mens soules , and to harme their consciences : to which also the generall assertion is to be applyed , and a woe is to bee pronounced as belonging to them that by cunning and subtle devices , by counsels , perswasions , laying before men alluring objects , doe scandalize others . such a one was balaam , revel . . . who taught balaak to cast a stumbling-block before the children of israel , to eat things sacrificed to idols , and to commit fornication . but gods vengeance followed him , he was slaine with the sword by the israelites , num. . . and st iude vers . . tells us , a woe is to them that runne greedily after the errour of balaam for reward . of the same stamp was ieroboam the sonne of nebat , who caused israel to sin , by setting up two calves of gold , one in bethel , and the other in dan , instituting high places , and priests of those calves , offering sacrifices , and keeping a feast to them . . king . . &c. the issue of which was the cutting off his house , and destroying it from off the face of the earth . . kings . . . and he his still stiled by the holy ghost ieroboam the sonne of nebat which caused israel to sinne . the like woe in some one way or another belongs to all those that tread in the same steps . to conceive more fully of this sort of scandalizing , we are to consider that this kinde of scandalizing hath diverse acts . the first and principall is in the braine , that contrives some pernitious device to ensnare mens soules by , for the most part intended to that end : but if it stay there , and shew not it selfe in outward act , it is only a scandall inchoate or begun . the outward acts by which it shewes it selfe , are either of words , or of deeds . we may see it in the scandall of balaam & balak : balaam deviseth a way to scandalize the israelites by sending the whoorish daughters of moab among them , thereby enticing them to commit whoredome , and to joyne with them in their idol-feasts : balaam deviseth this , he imparts it to balak , and he puts it in practise : in this balaam was the principall , balak the accessary : balaam began the scandall . balak perfected it . ionadab the son of shimeah deviseth a way for amnon to practise his incestuous lust with his sister tamar , & adviseth him to execute it , by which he committed a foule sin . . sam. . . this counsell of ionadab was a scandall to amnon by a subtil way . iulian the apostata abstaines from the shedding the blood of christiās which diocletian , & other emperours before had shed : he saw that it did but encrease christianity , men being ambitious of death that they might have the honour and crowne of martyrdome . but hee useth sly and cunning devices to insnare men in paganisme , he promotes the most zealous pagans , makes the schooles free only for them , countenances them , ieeres at the doctrine of christ , scoffs at the rites of christians , foments their contentions , and thereby drawes many to apostasie ; many to a love of paganisme , and thereby scandalizeth them . innumerable of the like subtil devices are used in every age to insnare mens souls by enticing them to doe evill . and this sort of scandalizing differs from that scandall which is by sinfull example , in that the action of such scandall is intended onely for to satisfie the doers lust , though it becomes scandalous by it's venomous nature : the scandall by an enticing practise is sinfull , and intended also to further sin , though sometimes the scandalizer know not the thing hee perswades to , to be sin . it differs also from scandall by persecutiō in that that scandall is by force , the other by fraud . now all such kinde of scandalizing by enticeing practises is sinfull and deserves woe , but all is not alike sinfull ; nor hath the same degree of woe awarded to it : for difference is to bee made between scandalizers according to the part they act in this tragoedy , or mischiefe of scandals . for there are some that are the contrivers , & counsellours of such divellish machinations : others only moti movent , being set on worke they execute . the inventer & perswader in this thing is deeper in the guilt of the scandal then the meere actor . for it is more voluntary in him that contrives , more of his own motion , than it is in him that acts what another suggests . he that leads and rules the other is the principall , hee that consents and followes is but a second . wherefore the scandalizing of the children of israel by the daughters of moab is rather in scripture imputed to balaam , who taught that wicked device , then to balak who put it into execution : and ieroboam that devised the golden calves is rather said to cause israel to sinne , then the workman that made and set them up . secondly , difference is to be made between scādalizers of this kinde in respect of the several motives which lead them to offend others . for first , some doe scandalize others out of craft for their ungodly and unrighteous ends . thus balaam the sonne of peor devised a way to scandalize the israelites that hee might gaine the wages of the unrighteousnesse . . pet. . . ieroboam the sonne of nebat sets up two golden calves at dan & bethel , which became a snare to the people of israel , & this was done to maintaine his rebellion against his prince , and confirme the kingdome to himselfe , . kings . . . . jonadab the son of shimeah perswades amnon to ravish his sister , & this was done that hee might the more ingratiate himselfe to amnon his friend . . sam. . . the pharisees devised waies of superstition and hypocrisie that they might devoure widowes houses . mat. . . . elimas the sorcerer with subtilty seeks to turn away the deputy from the faith , that hee might retain his power with him . acts. . . . the false apostles sought to corrupt the faith of the galathians concerning iustification by the law that s. paul being excluded , themselves might be affected . gal. . . those of whom the apostle saies , . tim. . . that crept into houses , and lead away silly women laden with sins led away with divers lusts , did it no doubt to make a prey of them . and with the same spirit at this day doe many seducing iesuites and seminary priests bred of the smoke of the bottomlesse pit scandalize many ignorant or corrupt soules by drawing them to their impious idolatry , & superstition , their antichristian errors and deceits , that they may maintaine the unrighteous tyranny of the roman bishops , maintaine thēselves , their colledges , and fraternities in a rich and plentifull manner by drurifying ( as the secular priests call it ) that is by cheating their proselytes . and no better are the ends of many other heretiques , as socinians , anabaptists , familists , separatists and the rest of the litter of grievous wolves , as s. paul calls them , acts . . that enter among christians and spare not the flock . cosin-germanes to which are all that for wicked ends corrupt mens consciences : as the harlot that enticeth lovers to her for gaine : that corrupt young heires in their manners by humouring them , pleasing them in their vaine lusts of swaggering and gallantry ( as they call it ) that they may in fine cheate them of their lands or money by gameing with them , or some such practise : that make their neighbours drinke , put the bottle to them , and make them drunken , that they may see their nakednesse , an use in habakkuks times . hab : . . that they may discover their secrets , robbe their pockets , draw them to suretiship for them , and such other evill purposes . now all these doe scandalize plena voluntate , with full will , wittinly and deliberately , and thereby shew themselves to bee full of satan , throughly diabolized professours of his art , which is to make it his businesse , to goe about seeking whom be may devoure : they are as s. paul called elymas , acts . . children of the divell , enemies to righteousnesse , that cease not to pervert the right wayes of the lord. . some doe scandalize others by enticing practises not out of any oblique or indirect ends contrary to their pretences : but out of love and zeale to their errours , or other things wherein they scandalize them . of this sort are many heretiques and scismatiques , and idolaters that sollicite men to embrace the errours they hold , or the superstitions they practise out of meer zeale to their errours and superstitions . iezabel was zealous for the worship of baal , and therefore shee entertaines and promotes the priests of baal at her owne table , that shee might further her superstition , out of the mad affection shee had to the idol . saint paul sayes of the iewes that went about to establish their owne righteousnesse that they did it out of a zeale of god , though not according to knowledge , ro : . . there are not a few that corrupt others by enticing them to drunkennesse , idlenesse &c. for no other end but because they love their sin , and would have as many companions with them in their sin as they can infect , to build up the divells kingdome . the adulteresse with much faire speech drawes the simple young man to cōmit lewdnes with her , only to satisfy her immoderate lust , pr. . . these are very grievous scandalizers harming and destroying their brethrens soules to further their sin , and to make others children of hell like themselves . and it shewes in them a wicked disposition that loves and delights in evill . yet because it is out of some ignorance ( though it bee such as is pravae dispositionis , of an evill disposition ) it is therefore lesse voluntary then the former , and thereby lesse evill , and lesse obnoxious to woe . . some doe scandalize others by faire words out of misguided love to the persons they scandalize : so that the motive hereof is an affection of love compounded with ignorance , and imprudence . thus peter advised christ to decline his sufferings , out of love as he thought : but ignorantly , and therefore our saviour rejected his counsell as savouring of a meere carnall and humane affection . mat. . . telling him that hee was a scandall to him . in this manner many carnall parents have disswaded their children from martyrdome , from zeale , and forwardnesse in religion , least they should bee lost , as they thinke , become melancholy , unfashionable , misse their preferment , be mocked by men of the world &c. wherein they thinke they shew much love to thē , but do indeed scandalize , or harme their soules , as peter did christ. but the woe due to this is lesse then the former , because it is lesse voluntary , as being not out of a love to the evill , but to the persons they perswade through simple ignorance of the evill to which they perswade . thirdly difference is to be made of scandalizeing in this kind according to the matter or thing wherein they scandalize them . for sometimes men doe lay a stumbling block by seducing men from the truth , in credendis , in matters of faith . as those of whom s. peter speakes , . pet. . . that brought in damnable heresies , or heresies of perdition : and those of whom s. paul speaks , that sought to deprive christians of their liberty in christ , that they might bring them into bondage , gal. . . those that corrupted mens minds from the simplicity that is in christ. . cor. . . some doe scandalize others in agendis , in matters of practise , whether pertaining to religion , or to civill conversation . as balaam that corrupted the israelites in both : and all others that draw men to superstition , intemperance and the like sinnes . now the former are caeteris paribus , other things being alike , the worse sort of scandalizers : for as much as a pernitious errour in matters of faith is more dangerous , as more easily spreading and infecting the minds , then a corrupt practise that hath lesse colour for it , and likely more resistance . the reasons why a woe belongs to such scandalizers are . because they are plaine and manifest agents and factors for satan and his kingdome . our lord christ called peter satan , when he was a scandall to him , though but out of imprudence . mat. . . much more justly may the title be fastened on him that scandalizeth out of craft , who is ingeniosè nequam , wittily wicked . for this reason s. paule styled elymas the sorcerer a child of the divell , because he did not cease to pervert the right waies of the lord , act. . . for what doe such but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with open face declare themselves for satan , and associate themselves to him in promoting his worke , which is the devouring of soules : and therefore may expect his pay , to whose service they have addicted themselves . . because they are direct enemies to god. s. paul stiled elymas , an enimy to all righteousnesse . acts . . and what is an enemy to righteousnesse , but an enemy to god , who loveth righteousnesse and hateth iniquity ? what doe such scandalizers but apply themselves to seduce men from their subjection to gods kingdome : and as much as in them lies , overthrow his dominion ? now such as shew enmity against god may justly expect hostility from him against them , wrath in requitall of their unrighteousnesse , and that in proportionable measure , answerable to the measure of their iniquity . for application of this truth . . we may hereby discover the great guilt that lies on them , that by this way scandalize others , and the great misery that belongs to them . surely there are every where many , who at least through imprudence doe scandalize men to their ruine by insinuating practises : many carnall parents that relish not the word of life themselves , out of prejudice against godlinesse , and holy zeale disswade their children from diligence in duties of godlinesse , prayer , reading , hearing , meditating on gods word , as conceiving that these things will make them silly , unfashionable , unsociable , dejected , melancholick , opinionative , that it will hinder their credit and preferment . and therefore divert the current of their minds to the reading of poems , play-bookes , amorous writings , acquaint them with merry company , pregnant wits , that they may learne gallantry of behaviour , whet their wits , erect their spirits . but instead of learning these things , they learne for the most part the damnable arts of swearing , whoring , fighting , drinking , riot , scoffing at religion , and the rest of those hellish courses , which are in these daies vailed under the name of bravery of spirit , and gallantry of carriage . and this falls out by gods just judgement , that while parents are enemies to that noble service which their children by their godlinesse , and holy zeale might doe for god the soveraigne lord ; to that heroicall fortitude of minde , in contemning the world , and bearing the extreamest evills for christs sake , which faith produceth ; that incomparable joy , that true liberty which a holy life begetteth , that surpassing wisdome , and usefull worth that attend the knowledge of god , and an upright heart towards him : their children should fall into the basest services of their own lusts , & of satans will : enslave themselves to whores , and drinke , and such like effaeminating things , be filled with meere vanity , empty of reall worth , and prove a griefe to their parents , a burden to their countrey , the ruine of their houses , and which is yet worst , children of hell . and as this is the course of too many ill-advised parents , so it is the manner of too many unfaithfull friends , and misguided masters , who being led by the same spirit endeavour to quench the beginnings of new birth in their friends , and servants , by their counsells : if they perceive in them any sense of sin , any degree of humiliation , any application of their minds to religion , any alienation of their minds from the prophanenes & vanity of the world , they set their wits on worke how to prevent them , conceiving they shall doe them a pleasure , when as their counsells tend to their perdition . and thus they doe as they say apes doe to their young ones , amplexando strangulant , by hugging them , they kill them . unhappy men ! that thinking to doe good , destroy those whō they love , and procure a woe to their own soules in recompence of their counsells , that under the covert of friendship act satans part : and precipitate themselves and their followers into perdition : but besides these there are not a few , who are zealous for corrupt opinions , for superstitious traditions , for drunken usages , for prophane libertinisme &c. and others who out of craftie reaches , and subdolous intentions , for worldly advantages apply themselves to seduce others . of which sort are no doubt many emissaries out of popish seminaries , agents for separation , and other seedesmen of tares . shall i take up the apostles wish , gal. . . i would they were cut off that trouble us ? so indeed we wish , but my text puts me out of hope of attaining it in this life , & therefore i can doe no more but only read their doome , that a heavy direfull woe hangs over their heads , which will as surely fall on them , as god is true . for how can it be otherwise , but that gods wrath should break forth against those that continue practises against him as his enimies ? can any prince brook the sowers of sedition , the seducers of his subjects from their allegiance , the underminers of his authority ? if claudius caesar were so blockish , we shall seldome meet with such another . certaine it is , god will not so put it up , he hath proclaimed himselfe to be a god that will by no means cleare the guilty . exod. . . that he will repay them that hate him to their face : let no man deceive himselfe , god is not mocked . there is a treasure of wrath reserved for all such factors for hell . the same cup that balaam and ieroboam , and iannes and iambres and elymas dranke of shall all seducing iesuits & inveigling sectaries and promoters of licentiousnesse drinke of . the same judgement abides them : the same hell must hold them . wherefore in the next place admonitiō is needfull . . to those that out of imprudence doe scandalize , that they consider what they doe . thou that disswadest frō that which is good , out of ill-advised love , consider better what thou doest . wilt thou disswade that which god commands ? wilt thou goe about to crosse his worke ? gamaliels saying should lesson us better : that which is of god we cannot overthrow , least haply we be found even to fight against god. acts . . wilt thou destroy thy brothers soule whom thou thinkest to benefit ? wilt thou doe the divell service under shew of a good office to thy friend ? s. peters case should be a memento to thee , that thou maist deserve the title of satan by such officiousnesse . . to those that out of zeale to their opinions and affection to their waies doe scandalize , that they look well what it is they are zealous for , it is good alwaies to be zealous in a good thing , gal. . . but in evill the more zeale the worse . nothing worse then iezabels zeale for baal ; nothing better then elijahs zeale for god. in a wrong way , the faster a man runnes , the worse ; in a right way , the better . it is mischievous enough to scandalize others ignorantly ; it is more mischievous when it is done with zeale : for that is done with more activity , and after a more pernitious manner . it is pitty good mettall should be ill placed . it might doe much good were it rightly used , use thy zeale for god , it will be thy happinesse : if thou use it for evill , it will be thy madnesse . . to those that scandalize others out of crafty and evill intendments , that they doe but weave a net to catch themselves . thou that art willingly the divels agent , take this with thee , that the divell will over-reach in the end . what wages have witches , the divels covenant servants , but confusion ? and what reward canst thou that art the divels hired servant expect but destruction ? thou hast sold thy self to worke wickednesse : and iniquity shall bee thy ruine : while thou doest destroy thy brothers soule , thou doest by the same labour damne thine own . oh take this wholesome counsell : repent of this thy wickednesse : and pray god , if perhaps the thoughts of thine heart may be forgiven thee : acts . . use thy wit and zeale for god who will doe thee good : debase not thy selfe to doe the divell service , who loves thee onely as a salvage doth , that hee may devoure thee . § . . lastly for those that are in danger of being scandalized by such practises , it concernes them . to walke by the light of gods word . for it is light that must keepe us from stumbling : if a man walke in the day hee stumbleth not , because hee seeth the light of this world . but if a man walke in the night he stumbleth , because there is no light in him . iohn . . . so it is concerning the soule , if there be ignorance and errour in it , it is easily scandalized , but light and understanding preserve a man safe . . to look well to thy goings , without which thou maist stumble though thou have light before thee . remember then that of solomon , prov. . . the simple beleiveth every word : but the prudent man looketh well to his goings . bee not easily credulous then of mens counsells : trust not lightly to their judgements : try their spirits , examine their counsels , & opiniōs afore thou embrace them . forget not s. pauls rule , rom. . . to marke them which cause divisions , and offences contrary to the doctrine which is delivered to us , and avoyd them . for they that are such serve not our lord iesus christ , but their owne belly , and by good words and faire speeches deceive the hearts of the simple . cap. . of scandalizing in speciall by persecution . the fourth way of scandalizing in the distribution before made is scandalizing by injuring or persecuting . this way maldonate conceives our saviour specially intended vers . . and he gathers it from the antithesis as it is set down by s. mat. ch : . . . for having said v. . who so shall receive one such little one in my name , receiveth me . addes immediately v. . but who so shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me &c. where scandalizing vers . . is opposed to receiving , that is entertaining with kindnesse , and therefore imports injuring or persecuting . and indeed scandalizing is an effect of persecution , even such scandalizing as causeth apopostasie . our saviour saies of the stony ground which resembles such hearers as have no roote in themselves , when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word , by and by they are offended , mat. . . and that when many shall be delivered up to be afflicted , many shall be offended . mat. . . wherefore we conclude , that misery or woe belongs to those that scandalize others , by afflicting , injuring , or persecuting them . which woe belongs to all that shall cause enmities , griefes , and other harmings of mens minds , by terrifiing them with threats , by wronging them in spoiling their goods , by giving them blowes , or other wayes , whoever the persons thus harmed be . for such workes being the works of unrighteousnesse shall have their due vengeance . vnto them that are contentious , that obey unrighteousnesse shall bee indignation and wrath , tribulation & anguish upon the soule of every man that doth evill . ro. . . . but yet in a higher degree the woe belongs to them that offend beleivers in christ , who are the chiefe object of persecution , which are chiefly meant in this place . of whom the apostle saies , . thess. . . it is a righteous thing with god to recompense tribulation to them that trouble such . to cleare this truth i shall distinctly answer these questions . . wherein persecution is exercised , and how believers are persecuted , . how scandalized by persecution . . what woe belongs to such as thus scandalize them . for an answer to the first of these questions ; persecution in greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth most properly signify an eager swift motion , as in running a race , or in the chasing of an enemy flying , with an hostile mind : by translation it signifies any eager pursuit , or seeking after a thing which wee would obtaine , as when we are commanded heb. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , follow after peace , & the apostle phil. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i pursue if i may comprehend or attaine to , hee meanes the knowlgdge and grace of christ. but in the ecclesiasticall use of this word it is appropriated to those afflictions which unbeleiving and ungodly men doe set themselves to inflict on the godly and believers . in this sense it is used mark. . . where our saviour sayes that the losse of things left for him shall bee recompenced with an hundred fold in this time , yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not without persecutions , that is afflictions and hard usages from evill men . and s. paul . tim. . . they that live godly in christ iesus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shall be persecuted , that is , be ill handled by the ungodly which thing they doe many wayes . sometimes by seeking after their lives ; so that nothing will satisfy them but the shedding of their blood , as if nothing else could quench their thirst , but a draught of a godly christians blood . yet not all in the like cruell manner : to some it 's enough that they can destroy them : to others it 's not sufficient unlesse they can cause them sensim mori , to dye a lingring death by torture , so as to be long a dying , or that if it be shorter for the time , it may be with the extreamest paine , or with the extreamest ignominy . nor are the impulsive causes the same in all : it 's in all hatred of the godly , but not for the same reason : and therefore the bitternesse of this hatred is in some greater and more lasting : in others lesse , and sooner removed : s. paul persecuted the church of god : but he did it out of ignorance and unbeliefe , and therefore was the more capeable of repentance and mercy , . tim. . . iezabel persecuted the prophet elijah out of zeale for her idolatry , . kings . . herodias , because iohn baptist had preached against her companying with herod , mark. . herod persecuted iames and peter that hee might please the people . acts . in all there 's malice , but upon different reasons . and for the kind of death which they inflict on them , it is different according to the divers degrees of their malice , wit and power , some they stone , others they saw in two , others they slay with the sword . heb. . . some they hang on a crosse , some they cast to wild beasts , some they drowne in the sea , some they boyle in oyle to death , some they broyle on a greediron , some they burne at a stake , some they make away in secret , as the histories of the church doe abundantly testify . sometimes persecution reacheth not to the taking away the life , but to bonds and imprisonment , as it befell paul and silas acts . to banishment , losse of goods , as it befell the saints , heb. . . to excommunications , and casting out of the synagogue , as our saviour foretold , ioh. . . to threatnings and hard speeches , iude . to slanders , and false accusations , mat. . . to scoffes , insulting sarcasmes , which are called cruell mockings , heb. . . and with which it is said ismael persecuted isaak . gal. . . in a word all those wayes of inflicting evill , whereby the malignant spirits of wicked men doe harme the godly in their bodies , outward estates , & name , are acts of persecution . such kind of evills sometimes happen to the godly by voluntary vndertakings , as death , and danger , and wants by reason of travaile to promote the gospell , or the like cause : but then they are acts of persecution when they are by others inflicted on them to doe them mischiefe . it falls out sometimes that believers and godly persons doe molest and practise one against another , by reason of private discord , and grudges from corruption prevayling although they agree in the worship of the same lord. sometimes such kinde of practises are betweene unbeleivers themselves , who seekes one anothers lives , vexe , spoyle , expell one another , by reason of private enmities : sometimes they doe the like to beleevers upon private quarrells arising from ambition , covetousnesse or the like cause . by all which there may harming and scandalizing come ; but it is then in the usuall ecclesiasticall acception of the word , persecution , when ungodly men inflict those evills on godly and beleiving persons , quî tales , as they are such , for their piety or faiths sake , for righteousnesse sake . mat. . . . pet. . . for christs sake and the gospells , mark. . . more distinctly when men inflict evill on others for their profession of christ , and his gospell , for not serving idols , as when the emperour did put to death christians for refusing to offer incense to their heathen gods. and nebuchadnezzar cast into a fiery fornace , three iewes for not bowing downe to his golden image , or when they bring evill on them for doing their duty , the reproving of sin , delivering gods message , as when ahab and iesabel made elijah to fly , micajah to lye in prison , herod cast iohn baptist in prison for declaring their sins to them , and foretelling ther judgment , when the princes of darius procured daniel to bee cast into a den of lions for praying to god three times aday , when the iewes drave the apostles from one citty to another for preaching the gospell , then it is persecution ; and thus even at this day those that have power doe persecute christians in some places by cruell torments , in some by expulsion from their dwellings , spoyling their goods , in some by tauntes , mockes , threates , disgracings , slanders &c. for their embracing the word of life , rejection of idolatry , publishing of the truth , non-conformity to the vices of the world . for it is the lot of gods people which our saviour requires us to remember , iohn . . the servant is no greater then the lord , if they have persecuted me , they will also persecute you . now these persecutions doe scandalize , as our saviour tells us mat. . . and the reason of their scandalizing may be gathered from our saviours words , who tells us that the good hearers persevere , because they bring forth fruit with patience . wherefore on the contrary the scandall of the temporary beleivers is for want of patience : defect of patience to beare the assaults of persecution is that which causeth the persecuted beleiver or hearer of gods word to be scandalized . for the heart of man is swayed by paines and delights . arist. lib : . ethic : ad nicom : makes voluptatem & dolorem , pleasure and griefe , the generall objects , or matter about which vertues , and vices are conversant . the reason of which is because in all morall things pleasure and griefe doe move and sway men to or from a thing . hereupon it is that when men have not roote of faith , and strength of patience , their resolutions are altered , their courses changed , their minds broken by suffering hard things : so that rather then undergoe them , they will yeild to that sin which is their ruine . the spirits of strong men are apt to be broken with calamities , even as a strong oake by a mighty wind , yea the feare of things grievous doth oft prevaile to scandalize men . s. peter who was a man of great resolutions , was dashed by the charge of a weake mayd , when it tended to bring him into danger , and all the disciples were offended because of christ , as soone as he was apprehended , mat. . . as for the woe that belongs to such scandalizing , it is the same which is awarded unto other sorts of scandalizing ; if not greater : forasmuch as this kind of scandalizing hath more of malice in it then the rest . for all persecutors are moved by bitter malice towards the godly to injure and molest them . 't is true , sometimes their malice is pure malice , sometimes mixt : but alwayes malice . the pharisees who persecuted our lord christ out of pure malice , they said , hee had an uncleane spirit : mark. . . they called him a samaritane , a wine-bibber , a friend of publicans and sinners . they sought to intangle him , to destroy him though his miracles convinced them , that he was a teacher sent from god , and that god was with him , iohn . . but others persecuted out of malice compounded with ignorance . luk. . . saith our saviour , father forgive them , for they know not what they doe ; compounded with blind zeale ; the time cometh saith our saviour iohn . . that whosoever killeth you will thinke that hee doth god service . s. paul sayes that out of zeale hee persecuted the church , philip. . . this malice is lesse then pure malice , and the woe due to this scandalizing by persecution , lesse then to the former ; . persecution out of blind malice is the more pardonable , and the lesse punishable , then that which is done out of pure malice , which may perhaps be utterly unpardonable , when it is the sinne against the holy ghost . whereas s. paul alleadgeth for himselfe , that though he were a persecutor , and a blaspheamer , yet hee obtained mercy , because hee did it ignorantly in unbeleife , . tim. . . neverthelesse all persecution of the godly , all scandalizing by evill handling of men , without repentance , hath eternall death for its wages . it is a righteous thing with god to recompence tribulation to them that trouble you , saith s. paul. . thes. . . & what is the tribulation ? he tells them v. . they shall be punished with everlasting destruction frō the presence of the lord , and from the glory of his power . and though god suffer such enemies of his church to prevaile for a time , yet few of them in the end escape his hand , but by some exemplary death , or other grievous judgment they beare the punishment of their iniquity . neither pharaoh , nor saul , nor herod , nor nero , nor domitian , nor any of the chaldaean , syrian , roman persecutors have escaped without deserved vengeance . as it is just with god to recomdence tribulation to them that trouble his people . so he doth undoubtedly inflict it seriùs aut citiù● , sooner or latter , unless his revēging hand be held up by the repentance of the persecutor . for application of this truth , first wee may hereby discerne the danger of those that this way scandalize others . the impetuous malice of persecutors carries them violently with rage against beleivers , so that they neither perceive their sin , nor the woe due to it . even like a horse that runs furiously and violently , observes not into what precipices , pits , down-falls it casts it selfe : so a persecutor that is driven by malice and blind zeale to breath out threatnings and slaughter against the disciples of christ , and to spoyle the church runs ( as we use to so say ) without feare or wit , neither considering whom he persecutes , nor how hard a thing it is for him to kick against the pricks : they see not what a tempest hangs over their heads , what a pit they are falling into . for even then when they study cruelty , devise mischiefe on their beds , while they act it with their tongue cutting like a sharp rasour , weigh the violence of their hands in the earth , use their strength , authority , power , as men that know not the way of peace , but destruction & unhappines are in their wayes , while they hire souldiers , arme executioners , invent torments for the saints , even thē & all that while god is whetting his sword and bending his bow and making it ready , hee is preparing for him the instruments of death ; he ordaineth his arrowes against the persecutors , that their mischiefe may returne upon their owne head , and their violent dealing may come downe upon their pate . ps. . . , . god is diging up a pit for the wicked , psal. . . and as sure as pharoah , saul , iezabel , herod , nero , domitian , and the rest of persecutors have suffered divine vengeance : so surely shall all cruell inquisitors , barbarous turks , unjust oppressours , ungodly scoffers , divellish belyers of gods people perish . it is determined in heaven : upon the wicked hee shall raine snares , fire and brimstone , and an horrible tempest : this shall bee the portion of their cup. for the lord tryeth the righteous : but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soule hateth , psal. . , . . this may justly deterre men from this way of scandalizing by persecution . a way of scandalizing it is that satan , who vseth all practises to stumble men , vi & dolo , by force and craft , hath set on foote in all times , in all churches . where princes are infidels or heretiques he seeks to raise them vp to waste the church to vexe the godly . where they have professed , and countenanced the gospell , and godlynes , there hee sets on worke some or other as secret vnderminers of their peace , such as may reach at them with their tongues , if they cannot with their hands . and it is so still : as in some places there are persecuting souldiers ▪ and persecuting iudges , so there are in other places persecuting scoffers , persecuting accusers , whose busines is to discourage beleevers , to affright the godly ▪ not only infidell princes , and hereticall prelates , but also the whole rabble of vitious men , riotous livers , sons of belial will bee out of their malignity practising against the saints that are opposite to their wayes . and the divell knowes this to be a prevailing way by reason of the love men have to their lives , goods , ease , and quietnesse . but for such as thus doe scandalize , it behoves them take notice of the woe following , to remember what our saviour said to saul , act. . , . it is hard for thee to kicke against the pricks . if they be able to fight with god , let them goe on : if not , let them remember iulians end betimes , that they may not be forced to confesse as he did , vicisti galilaee ; christ hath overcome them , though to their perdition . . lastly for those that are apt to be scandalized by persecutions it concernes them to get roote in themselves , strength of faith , stability of patience to stand in the time of triall , that they be not overthrowne in their goings by violent scandalls . the fiery triall must not be , as if some strange thing had happened to us ; but as men prepared for such a combate , we are wisely to foresee the assaults of such temptations , that we be not surprised by them , and to fortifie our selves with faith and courage , that we be not forced by them . we must watch , stand fast , quit our selves like men , be strong . . cor. . . remembring that the favour of god , the peace of our consciences , & salvation of our soules , depends upon our victory : that the fearfull shall be without : to him that overcometh shall be given to eate of the tree of life , which is in the middest of of the paradise of god. we must breake through terrours ; looke beyond death ; and by faith overcomming the world , and the prince of it , as christ and the saints have done , enter into glory . chap. . of the aggravation of the woe belonging to scandalizers . having finished the two first propositions contained in the first verse , there remaines only the third and last proposition containing an aggravation of the woe due to scandalizers by comparing it with a lesser though very grievous affliction , it were better for him &c. for the reading & meaning of which , much needs not be said , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( in enlish it is profitable , to which answers in s. mat. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is behovefull ) is translated by our translators according to the phrase in saint marke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is better for him . now in the aggravation it selfe wee are to consider the persons whose offence is spoken of , and the grievous punishment with which the woe due to such offenders is compared . the persons of whose offence our saviour speaks are these little ones . now by little ones are not meant little ones in age : for although our lord christ tooke occasion from the presence of little infants to use this phrase ; yet chiefly by the addition of saint matthew which adds 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that beleive in me , by the condition of these little ones , that they are converted and become humble as little children ; and because not litle children in age , but litle ones in disposition are apt to be scandalized in that manner our saviour here speaks of , it is plaine that our saviour meanes by ( these little ones ) believers in him , who are called little ones , not from their age , or quantity of body , but from their disposition or condition , because they are little in their owne eyes , or in the esteeme of the world , or because some of them that beleeve on him are lesse then others : the greivous punishmēt with which the woe due to such offenders is compared , is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , o be drowned in the deep of the sea , as it is in s. matthew ; in s. marke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , throwne into the sea , in s. luke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , cast into the sea , & that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that an asse-milstone be hanged about his necke , in s. mark. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a milstone be put about his necke , in s. luk. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that an asse-milstone bee about his necke . criticks busy themselves about this asse-milstone , what it was , and why so called ; some conceive it to be the lower milstone , because that is the greater , and our saviour would expresse the weight of the fall by the greatnesse of the stone : therefore they say the lower milstone was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or the asse , either because in manner of an asse it bare the burden , or from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to move , or bring about , because the upper milstone is turned about it , as iansenius conceives . but suidas in his greek lexicon in voce 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saies the upper milstone was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or the asse , and this is more likely , and that the reason why it was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was because it was turned about with an asse , and thereby distinguished from mola trusatilis , that milstone that was wont to be turned about with the strength of mens armes : which is the opinion generally of interpreters , ambrose , hilary , erasmus , iansenius , maldonate &c. however wee conceive of this milstone , the intent of our saviour was to shew by this addition the certainty of his perishing , the weight of his fall , and the irrecoverablenesse of it ; for a man that is cast into the sea , and hath a milstone hanged about his necke , is sure to perish , there being no possibility for him to use his armes or body to stay himselfe from sinking , and he hath a most heavy downfall , the weight of the milstone carrying him most violently into the bottome of the deepe , and his fall is irrecoverable , no man being able to prevent his fall , or to recover him thence . for this reason in the revelation of saint iohn ch . . . where the irrecoverable destruction of babylon is signified , the resemblance is the same with that in my text , and a mighty angel tooke up a stone like a great milstone , and cast it into the sea , saying , thus with violence shall that great citty babylon be throwne downe : and shall be found no more at all . hierome in his comment : on math : . . saies this manner of casting men into the sea was secundùm ritum provinciae quo majorum criminum ista apud veteres iudaeos paena fuerit , ut in profundum ligato saxo demergerentur : according to the manner of that province , in which that was among the ancient iewes the punishment of greater crimes , that they should be drowned in the deepe with a stone bound about their neckes . but this punishment we finde no mention of in the old testament , though of stoning often . what other writers relate i cannot speake , nor upon what evidence s. hierome found this to be the manner of the ancient iewes to punish great crimes by drowning the malefactors in the deepe of the sea , with a milstone hanged about their necke . casaubon in his notes on matthew . . proves by a passage or two which he cites out of diodorus siculus , and athenaeus , that the greekes used 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 drowning in the sea , as a punishment among them , but he finds not that it was by tying a stone to their necke , but rather by putting the malefactor into leade . and it may seeme by a passage which he cites out of polybius , that it was rather reckoned among the easier , then more grievous sorts of punishment . maldonate conceives it might bee that our saviour in using this resemblance did allude unto the pride which hee here censures , as he did math : . . when hee said ; and thou capernaum which art exalted to heaven , shalt be brought down to hell . what ever the allusiòn be , saint hierome rightly notes , that our saviour meant hereby to let us understand that it were better for scandalizers to receive a short punishment here , then eternall torments . or that though to be cast into the sea with a milstone about the necke , be a certaine , grievous , irrecoverable destruction , yet the woe of scandalizers is more certaine , more grievous , more irrecoverable and it is considerable that the emphasis of our saviours words in averring this , seemes to intimate that he spake this with some vehemency , as if he had said to this purpose : though it bee that those that beleive in me are litle ones in their owne and others eyes ; yet i tell you it will be more tolerable for a man to bee thus dolefully cast into the sea , then for him to incurre the punishment of offending these litle ones , as little as they be , yea though hee offend but one of these little ones . now from this speech of our saviour , wee may observe that those that beleive in christ , are litle ones ; which is true , whether we compare them among themselves , or with others ; for magnum & parvum are relatives , as aristotle observes in his categories in the chapter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . now compared among themselves , they are some lesse then others . our saviour math : , . by saying , in as much as yee have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren , yee have done it unto mee : intimates that some of his brethren are lesse then others : and indeed so it is . in respect of spirituall gifts and graces some are lesse then others . our saviour in his charge to peter concerning his pastorall office distinguisheth betweene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his little lambes , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his sheepe , ioh. . , . and requires peter to doe as it was foretold of himselfe , isay . . that he should feed his flocke like a shepheard , that hee should gather the lambes with his armes , and carry them in his bosome and should gently leade those that are with young . the apostle distinguisheth between the strong in faith and the weak in faith , rom. . . and . . thus it hath beene , and it is still . some are christians , come to maturity , others are in the blossome and bud : some are novices , catechumeni , yongling in christ ; some are confirmed christians & strong men in christ. which thing happens , first because of the sutablenesse of it to the condition of a body : for as it is in the naturall body , all members are not of equall growth , so it is in the mysticall body of christ , it is fitly joyned together and compacted by that which every joynt supplieth according to the effectuall working in the measure of each part . ephes. . . there is a different measure of each part , that there may be a meete symmetry in the whole . secōdly besides all members have not the same office : and therefore gods spirit gives not to all a like measure of knowledge and other gifts , rom. . , . thirdly , againe all parts have not a like meanes for growth , not a like instruction and nurture , not a like time for growth : there is a different working in the severall parts , and accordingly a different growth , ephes. . . fourthly , if all christians were of equall strength , faith , wisdome , aud other graces , there would be a subtraction of the matter of sundry principall duties ; there would be no need one christian should edifie one another , beare with one another , avoyd the offence of another , give helpe to another , restore one another , &c. wheras god hath so tempered the parts of the mysticall body as well as the naturall , that the members should have the same care one of another , . cor. . . . in power , dignity , authority , wealth &c. both in the church , and in the world , some believers in christ exceed others . among many meane christians , some are noble in birth and dignity : among many christian subjects there are some soveraigne kings and princes that are christians : among many illiterate believers there are some learned believers . in which thing god hath admirably ordered that as there should be some nobles , some princes , some learned among his people , that they may help & defend his church : so there are not many nobles , not many mighty , not many wise after the flesh , that the support and raising of his church may appeare not to be by an arme of flesh , not by might , but by his spirit , that no flesh should glory in his presence . . cor. . , . if wee compare them with others they are but little , i meane in dignity , secular honour , power , strength among men . except a david or a constantine , and some other christian kings , how few of gods people have injoyed any eminent degree of worldy glory ? the triumphant cōquerors , the mighty monarchs of the world have been most of them infidels . the almighty ( that intends a better inheritance for his saints even a kingdome that cannot be shaken , heb. . . ) bestowes not on them the great monarchies , dominions , and dignities of this world , which are meaner gifts . and accordingly the world makes small account of beleivers , as if they were but contemptible persons : for the men of this world have eyes of flesh , and fleshly minds : they magnify and admire the world and the pompe thereof , sumptuous palaces , gorgeous attire , great command , great observance and attendance : but the worth of spirituall excellencies , the glorious priviledges and endowments of gods sons they know not : even as christ was unknowne in the world , so are his members , . iohn . , . lastly those that believe in christ are little in their owne eyes , that is humble , which ( it's likely ) was chiefly here meant by our saviour . for to this christ specially applyes the embleme of a little child , math. . . and in this sense saul is said to have been little in his own eyes , . sam. . . thus certainly are all the saints : david was as great in the eye of others as any man in the world in his age : yet he was not so great in the eyes of others , but he was as small in his owne . who am i saith he to god ) . sam. . . and what is my house , that thou hast brought me hitherto ? and psal. . . &c. lord my heart is not haughty , nor mine eyes lofty : neither doe i exercise my selfe in great matters , or in things too high for me . surely i have behaved and quieted my selfe as a child that is weaned of his mother : my soule is even as a weaned child . the reasons hereof are . because by faith they behold gods infinite greatnesse , and then comparing themselves with him , they cannot but thinke themselves as nothing . abraham was a great man in his time : he had great wealth , and was so potent that by the forces of his owne houshold hee overthrew foure conquering kings : yet when he comes to speake with god , hee doth in most humble manner acknowledge his owne meane condition : behold now , i have taken upon mee to speake unto the lord , who am but dust and ashes , gen. . . when a man surveyes the earth by it self , it is a great and vast body : but when it is compared with the heavens , it is instar puncti , but as a small point that hath no quantity . so for those men that looke on themselves , or compare themselves with other men , or inferiour creatures , they are apt to imagine themselves to bee some great mes , as simon magus vaunted himselfe , acts , . . but those that acquaint themselves with god , walke and converse with him , they find such an infinite disproportion betweene god and themselves , that they conceive themselves as nothing , even lighter then vanity it selfe . . as by faith they behold gods infinite greatnesse , and thereby find themselves as nothing : so by faith they behold gods infinite power , riches and soveraignty , and thereby see that they have nothing , that the things they have are not their owne but gods : that they have them from him , not by any merit of their owne , but ex dono , of free gift : nebuchadnez zar he swels when hee lookes on his greatnesse as his owne , is not this great babylon that i have built for the house of the kingdome , by the might of my power , and for the honour of my majesty ? dan. . . but holy david is in another tune , thine o lord is the greatnesse , and the power , and the glory , and the victory , and the majesty : for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine : thine is the kingdome ( o lord ) and thou art exalted as head above all . both riches and honour come of thee , and thou reignest over all , and in thine hand is power and might , and in thine hand it is to make great , and to give strength unto all . but who am i , and what is my people &c. . chron : . , , . and godly iacob , gen : . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i am little ( the phrase of my text ) in respect of all the mercies , & all the truth which thou hast done to thy servant . all was mercy and all the truth of god which he had , and therefore he was but little : the apprehension of this that all was to bee ascribed to gods truth and mercy , caused him to see nothing hee had that might puffe him up , though hee had much to be thankfull for : he doth not say , this is my house , my land , my dignity , my wit , &c. but these are the lands , the children &c. which god hath given , that hee hath lent me . he doth not take himselfe to bee a proprietary , but a borrower , not a gayner of them , but a receiver . and therefore as a borrower thinks not himselfe rich because hee hath much substance in his hands of other mens , so neither doe beleivers thinke themselves to bee great , because that which they have , they know it is but borrowed . for application of this truth , . we may hereby bee advertised what is the estate of beleivers in this life : some are lesse then others , and all little in this world : so accounted by others , and by themselves . the present condition in which they are is not the estate of men come to ripe yeares , but of children in their minority : of whom the apostle sayes , gal. . . that though they be heyres , yet as long as they are children they differ nothing from a servant , though they be lords of all : it is so with the saints in this life , all things are theirs , they are christs , & christ is gods , . cor. . , . yet they have command of nothing : nor perhaps the use of so much as wicked men . as it is with the heire of all his fathers goods , while he is young , he is set to schoole , there corrected , fares harder and hath lesse money in his purse , lesse to mannage then many of his fathers servants : and yet all is his , and for him ; so it is with gods children , they are held hard to it , they have little in hand , they are low in the eyes of men , and in their owne , and yet this is no impediment to their future glory : it 's a preparative to their receiving their inheritance . the men of this world doe grossely mistake the case of gods people : they imagine god neglects thē , because they are not in high places , and great power on earth : but this is their folly , while they measure gods love , and care of his people by their owne affections , not by gods judgement , they imagine those unhappy who are most blessed , and themselves happy who are most accursed . . christs little ones should bee wiser , they should know that their present condition is to be little , and accordingly to bee contented with small things , not mind great things in this world , as if they could not be happy without them ; it was the end wherefore our saviour used the embleme of a little child , mat. . . ( to which the phrase of little ones in my text alludeth ) that he might admonish his disciples not to strive for dignities , and precedencies , in this world . and s. paul rom. . . changeth christians not to mind high things , but to condescend to men of low estate . excellent was the advice of ieremiah to baruch , jerem ▪ . . seekest thou great things for thy selfe ? seek them not . wee must remember for the present our condition is to have our allowance , and to bee stinted by god : and therefore ought to bee contented with it , though it seeme little , sith wee know god is our father , and though now wee bee little , yet hereafter hee will make us great , though now we be humbled , yet hereafter wee shall bee exalted : though wee bee now poore in this world , yet wee are rich in god : and heyres of all things . . answerably hereto it concernes them to quicken their hope , and to excite their endeavours after those great things which god hath prepared for them : the lesse beleivers in christ are now , the more should they long for , and pant after their greatnesse in heaven . by this they must comfort and support their soules in their present condition : if they looke for great things on earth , they shall bee sure to misse them , if they look for great things hereafter they shall bee sure to have them . heaven is their countrey , there is their preferment . on it they must fixe their hopes , by it they must sustaine their soules . lastly this consideration that scandalizing of them that beleive in christ is the offending of little ones aggravateth much the sinne of scandalizers . to trample little ones under foot , to injure , and harme little children , argues much pride and much unmercifullnesse . smallnesse should be the object of mercy , not of insolency . and therefore in this respect the sinne of persecutors is great who scandalize christs little ones , and accordingly their woe is great , which is the principall point of this verse , and is now to be handled . the second observation and that which is the maine point in these words , is this : that the punishment due to them that scandalize believers in christ is greater then any temporall death though never so greivous . this assertion needs no other confirmation then the words of the text rightly understood according to the explication before made . to which neverthelesse may bee added this argument : the punishment due to scandalizers of believers in christ is eternall punishment in hell . for that such is due to this sinne , hath been proved before in declaring the woe due to scandalizing in generall , and to each particular branch thereof . but it is certaine that no temporall death is or can be so grievous as eternall punishment in hell ; none so sharpe , and tormenting ; none so constant and lasting : the bitterest paines of the most lingring temporall death , being sufferable , and finite , the other being intolerable , eternall , and so in a sort infinite ; now finiti ad infinitū nulla proportio , there 's no proportion between a thing finite , and a thing infinite . therefore no temporall death can be equall to the punishment of scandalizers of beleivers in christ. but that i may distinctly handle the conclusion , it will be needfull to consider , . who are to bee accounted beleivers in christ. . why to the scandalizing of them there is so great vengeance allotted . to believe in christ is to acknowledge in heart that he is the messias that was to come into the world , to assent to the doctrine of the gospell which hee published , and to trust in him for remission of sinnes and salvation : from hence men are denominated beleivers in christ. so that they are indeed beleivers in christ , who doe acknowledge in heart that he is the christ , the son , the living god , that assent to his doctrine , and trust in him for righteousnes & salvation . my purpose is not to take occasion to cōsider exactly the nature and sorts of faith in christ , nor the signes whereby that which is true and genuine is distinguished from counterfeit , imperfect , or defective . for at this time we are onely to consider whom another man is to take for a beleiver in christ , whom hee ought to take heed of scandalizing . onely thus much may be fit to be considered , that beleivers in christ may bee so called either according to gods estimation , as they are in his sight ; and in this acception they onely are beleivers in christ , who have the most excellent grace of faith planted in their hearts , by gods spirit , by which they are united to christ , dwell in him , live by and to him : which all that acknowledge the truth of the gospell in their profession of it , or that yeild to it in mind a light and uneffectuall credulity to it , doe not . but these are only knowne by god , who alone searcheth the heart and reines . or else beleivers in christ are called such according to that estimation man may make : and thus wee are to account all those as beleivers in christ , who knowing what they professe doe without compulsion professe themselves beleivers in christ , and doe not openly renounce either by speech or practice the truth of christian faith , though they have much weakenesse of knowledge , many errours in opinion , and many sinnes in their practice . in generall the number of those who professe freely their assent to the articles of the creed , that joyne in the worship of christ , and professe subjection to his precepts are to bee accounted by men as beleivers in christ , the scandalizing of whom is so woefull . the reasons why so great a degree of punishment belongs to such as scandalize beleivers in christ , are . because christ doth love them dearely , and they are of neare relation to him . the love of christ to them is abundantly manifest in that superlative expression of it , his dying for them : hee loved us , saith the apostle , eph. . . and hath given himselfe for us an offering and a sacrifice to god for a sweet smelling savour . and in like sort are they most tenderly beloved of his father , who so loved them , that he gave his only begotten sonne , that whosoever beleiveth on him , should not perish , but have everlasting life , iohn . . and for their relation there is no relation of dearenesse by which their indearednesse to god the father , and the lord jesus christ is not expressed . they are his little flock , luke . . and a good sheepheard is tender over his flocke : they are his servants , iohn . . and of these , good masters are carefull : they are his friends , iohn . . and true friends are very mindefull of their friends : they are his peculiar people , tit. . . . pet. . . and a good prince is very tender of his peoples safety : they are his brethren , heb. . . and true-hearted brethren are very regardfull of their brethrens good : they are his children , v. . the sonnes of god , . iohn . . heires of god , joynt heires with christ , rom. . . and strong is the affection of a father to his child , his sonne , his heire : they are the spouse of christ , eph. . . . and what is a man more zealously affected to , then to his beloved spouse ? they are his members , v. . and what is it that a man will not give or doe to save his members ? whence it is that he that sheweth kindnesse to them doth it to christ , math. . . the neglecting of shewing mercy to them is a deniall of it to christ , v. . and an offence to them a sinnne againg christ , . cor. . . their sufferings christs sufferings , coloss. . . this was the reason why christ when he spake to saul from heaven , going about the persecuting of beleivers at damascus , said thus to him , saul , saul why persecutest thou me , acts . , . saul thought that hee had bent himselfe onely against a company of peevish refractary people , whom hee thought worthy of all punishment for their obstinate adhering to their profession , by him conceived impious superstition , and heresy : but it was indeed christ himselfe who was persecuted , and strucke at in their persecutions . and so it is in all the persecutions of beleivers for their faith and obedience . now then christ must needs be provoked greatly by the scandalizing of them whom hee loves so dearely , accounts so neare to him : doubtlesse what was said of the iewes , zech. . . hee that toucheth you , toucheth the apple of his eye , is truely verified of all true beleivers , hee that toucheth them toucheth the apple ( if i may so speake ) of gods eye , which he will not let passe unrevenged . . the sinne of scandalizing beleivers in christ as it is against those whom christ loves , and are neare and deare to him , so it tends directly to the overthrow of christs kingdome . for to what end are they persecuted for the faith and service of christ , to what end are they tempted to sinne , harmed in their consciences , but that they may be alienated from christ , withdrawen from subjection to him , hindred in his service ? sauls persecuting of david is construed as if hee had bid him goe serve other gods , they have driven me , saith david , out this day from abiding in the inheritance of the lord , saying , goe serve other gods. . sam. . . nor can it be otherwise interpreted but that they which scandalize little ones that beleive in christ for their faith and obedience sake , doe as good as say , beleive not , obey not christ. now all such cannot but fall heavily under the wrath of god , and of christ iesus the universall iudge . what he said , luk. . . will be verified of them : as for those mine enemies that would not that i should raigne over them , bring them hither , and slay them before me . for loe thine enemies o lord , loe thine enemies shall perish , and all the workers of iniquity shall bee scattered . psal. . . . as it tends to the overthrow of christs kingdome , so especially in the last sorts of scandalizing it ariseth out of hatred of christ , his people , kingdome , and gospell ; which shewes a most wicked heart , and causeth intollerable provocation to anger . . in the practise of this sinne , especially by persecution , what are scandalizers but as satans hands to execute what hee instigates them to ? our saviour in his epistle to the church of smyrna , revel . . . tells that church that the divell should cast some of them into prison that they might bee tryed , and they should have tribulation ten dayes . are wee to thinke that the divell did in his owne person lay hands on any of the beleivers of that church , and by might hale them to prison , as saul intended to doe at damascus ? nay , wee find no record for any such thing , nor is it agreeable to the course of gods providence whereby hee rules the world . but rather we are to thinke that the divell is said to cast them into prison , because he excited the infidell rulers of those times to doe it , who therein tooke on them the person of the divell as iudas did , when he betrayed christ , and peter ( though in another manner ) when hee disswaded christ from his willingnesse to suffer . now that which is promoted by satan , who is the father of all evill , and the grand enemy of christ cannot but bee most odious to him , and procure his wrath , specially when men suffer themselves to be made satans professed agents and servants to doe his will. for application of this truth . . wee may hereby perceive the tender care which christ hath over his people . he takes their scandals as if he himselfe were scandalized , their injuries as his owne injuries , the persecuting of them as the persecuting of himselfe , which hee will not suffer to escape unpunished . pretious in the sight of the lord is the death of the saints , saith the psalmist , psal. . . their lives are pretious , and their death is pretious . i may adde , even their reproaches , their injuries , their false accusations , their scandalls are pretious , not sold for nought , nor valued as no losse . albeit sometimes it may seeme so , yet it is not in truth so as the psalmist complaines , psal. . . thou sellest thy people for nought , and dost not increase by their price . nay rather their haires are numbred , luke . . hee that valewes sparrowes , doth not account his childrē as nought worth : doubtlesse the meanest of his saints hath his teares bottled ; and his flittings numbred , and all his injuries booked . psal. . . and that to some end , even that they may be recompensed in them , revenged on their adversaries . a great cordiall this should be to christs little ones , to persist in the faith notwithstanding their scandalls , sith this light affliction , which is but for a moment , worketh for them a farre more exceeding , & eternall weight of glory : . cor. . . and as it hath been some content to some spirits dying , that they knew their death should not be unrevenged ; so it may bee a comfort to beleivers , that their persecutions shall be required , hee will doe right to them , justice on their enemies . . it should further direct us when wee are scandalized to commit our cause to god , to our lord christ. thus did zechariah when they stoned him with stones , hee said , the lord looke upon it , and require it . . chr : . . and thus did our lord christ . pet. . . when he suffered he threatned not , but committed himselfe to him that judgeth righteously . so should we : else wee intrence on gods prerogative , who hath said , vengeance is mine and i will repay . rom : . . wee disadvantage our selves by hindering the recompence of our patience , wee marre our cause by making it evill ; which otherwise would be good , wee harme our selves by moving god to anger for our miscarriage . it s our wisdome to forbeare avenging our selvs , else we shall shew that we remember not christs love to us , nor trust his care over us . . from hence scandalizers may take the right measure of their sinne : and the greatnesse of their punishment . they thinke commonly when they persecute beleivers , godly preachers , faithfull christians , they doe but speake against , and vexe , and oppose a company of peevish , precise , silly weak folke . thus did paul imagine when he persecuted the church of god. but christ told him otherwise , i am iesus whom thou persecutest . acts. . . and so doe all that are moved by the same spirit , and walke the same way . for wherefore are beleivers hated ? is it not for their constancy in the faith , their profession of the truth , their zeale to christs kingdome , their obedience to his precepts ? the scandalizing of them then can bee no other but an offence of christ. there may bee some that may thinke they love christ , and yet scandalize his little ones . but this cannot bee : the love of christ and of the brethren goe together , as s. iohn strongly proves , in his first epistle . know then , that scandalizing of christs members is no lesse then the offending of christ , and will be punished , as if his person were directly struck at . behold the lord commeth with ten thousands of his saints to execute iudgement upon all , and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds , and of all their hard speeches , which ungodly sinners have spoken against him . iude . . lastly this may startle those that practise this course of scandalizing : those that beleive in christ are in appearance little ones , of small power , contemptible , and therefore they are ready to think they may harme them with impunity . but it were good for them to remember solomons caveat prov. . , . robbe not the poore because he is poore : neither oppresse the afflicted in the gate . for the lord will pleade their cause , and spoyle the soule of them that spoyled them . consider what a doome is here threatned to scandalizers of beleivers . bee assured that gods righteousnesse , his love to his people , his owne cause requires this severity at his hands . know that ther 's no escaping unlesse they could fight against god , and were stronger then hee . provoke not then a couragious lion , stirre not up the wrath of the omnipotent god. touch not his annointed , doe his prophets no harme . shew them all kindnesses on earth , that what they cannot , their saviour may recompense in heaven : that when yee faile they may receive you into everlasting habitations . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e § . eccl. . the speaker and occasion of the words . § the partition of the text . § . the explication of the word scandall in the proper acception . lexic . in voce 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . § scandall in the scripture use . ps. . . rom. . §. of the sorts of effective scandall . §. . the necessity of scādals . §. . in respect of scandalizers . § . of persons scandalized . §. . of satan . § . of god. ezek. . . § . for what ends ordered by him . enchir. ad laur c. . §. . the application . . to iustifie religion notwithstanding the scandals of the professors of it . §. . to magnify the providence of god. § . to teach men to walk circumspectly . §. . . to waite for christs comming . §. . the explication of the words of the second proposition of the text. § . that a woe belongs to scandalizers . § . §. . who are scandalizers , and to what scandalizing woe belongs . iames . . qu. ans. lib. . de gubernat , dei. § why a woe belongs to them . rom. . . §. . § . application . to manifest the danger ●f scandalizers . §. . to admonish them of their sin . § . directions to avoide it . § . scandalizing distributed into foure waies § . a woe belongs to them that scandalize by sinfull example . § . what actions of sinfull example doe scādalize . qu. ans. qu. ans. §. . how they doe scandalize . lib. . de guber . dei. §. . why a woe belongs to such . §. . application . to move them to mourne that scandalize by sinfull example . §. . . to move men to take heed of scandalizeing by sinfull example . § . . and others that they be not scandalized by sinfull example . §. . directions to prevent it . §. . a woe belongs to scandalizers by abuse of liberty in things lawfull . §. . reasons thereof out of s. paules epistles . §. . the difficulty of this point , and quaeres propounded to cleare it . §. . answere of the first quaere what are things lawfull & indifferent , and what is our liberty in their use . §. . what waies our liberty in things indifferent may be restrained . § . the summary of the apostles resolutions about scandall in the use of things indifferent delivered . rom. . § . and . cor. . . . chapters . §. . que. . who are to avoyde scandalizing by abuse of liberty in things indifferent . §. . que. . scandalizing of whom by such abuse is to be avoyded . §. . que. . whether stroug ones are obnoxious to such scandall . § . que. . who are to be accounted weake ones not to be thus scandalized ? § . qu. . what evill consequent on our action makes scandalizing of this sort . §. . que. . how long we are to forbear our liberty for feare of scandall . §. . que. . what foresight of scandall consequent is necessary to make a man culpable of scandalizing this way . §. . que. . whether the restraint of our liberty for feare of scandall , be universall . §. . que. . whether scandall may be by omission of the use of our liberty . §. . que. . whether a community or a magistrate may be scandalized . § . que. . what we are to doe where there is danger of scandall one way and of disobedience to the magistrate another way . §. . que. . what we are to doe in case of scandall , either by using or not using our liberty ? §. . que. . what we are to doe , when the forbearing of our liberty endangers the losse of it . §. . que. . what are we to doe when there is danger of life by not using our liberty , of scandall by using it . §. . que. . what we are to doe when there is feare of scandall to some and hope of good to others by use of our liberty . §. . que. . how farre we are to regarde the scandal that ariseth from fancy without any probable reason ? §. . application . to manifest the uncharitablenes of scandalizers by abuse of their liberty . §. . . to disswade them from this sin , with directions against it . §. . . to admonish men of being scandalized by anothers use of his liberty , and directions to that end . §. . a woe belongs to scandalizers by enticing practises . §. . how men scandalize by enticing practises . §. . difference of scandalizers by enticing practises in respect of the part they act therein . §. . difference of scandalizers by enticing practises in respect of the motives which incite them . §. . difference of scandalizers by enticing practises according to the matter wherein they scandalize . §. . the reasons of the woe due to this scandalizing . §. . application . to manifest the great guilt of scandalizers in this kind . §. . . to admonish men to take heed of scandalizing this way . §. . and those that are apt to be scandalized . §. . a woe belongs to scandalizers by persecution . §. . how beleivers are persecuted . § . how persecutions doe scandalize . § . what woe belongs to scandalizers by persecuiion . § . application . . to discover the danger of such scandalizers . § . . to deterre them from it . § . . to advise them that are in danger of being scandalized by persecutions . § . the explication of the third proposition in the text . § . those that believe in christ are little ones . § . some lesse then others in spiritual gifts and graces . § . in power and dignity §. . beleivers commonly lesse then others in the world . § . little in their owne eyes . § . application . to advertise us of the estate of beleievrs in this world . §. . . to teach beleivers contentednesse in a low condition . §. . . to quicken their hope after heaven . §. . . to aggravate the sin of scandalizing beleivers . §. . that the woe due to scandalizers of beleivers is greater then any temporall death . §. . who are to be accounted beleivers in christ. §. . why so great vengeance is awarded to scandalizers of beleivers in christ. §. . application . to manifest christs tender care over his people . §. . . to teach us to commit our cause to him when we suffer for him . §. . . to advertise scandalizers of the greatnesse of their sin , and punishment . §. . . to deterre them from their sin . a plea for anti-pædobaptists, against the vanity and falshood of scribled papers, entituled, the anabaptists anatomiz'd and silenc'd in a public dispute at abergaveny in monmouth-shire sept. . . betwixt john tombes, john cragg, and henry vaughan, touching infant-baptism. by john tombes, b.d. tombes, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing t ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) a plea for anti-pædobaptists, against the vanity and falshood of scribled papers, entituled, the anabaptists anatomiz'd and silenc'd in a public dispute at abergaveny in monmouth-shire sept. . . betwixt john tombes, john cragg, and henry vaughan, touching infant-baptism. by john tombes, b.d. tombes, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by henry hills, and are to be sold at his house at the sign of sir john old-castle in py-corner, london, : . annotation on thomason copy: "may. ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng tombes, john, ?- -- early works to . cragge, john, -- m.a. -- early works to . vaughan, henry, or - -- early works to . anabaptists anatomiz'd -- controversial literature -- early works to . infant baptism -- early works to . anabaptists -- england -- early works to . a r (wing t ). civilwar no a plea for anti-pædobaptists, against the vanity and falshood of scribled papers, entituled, the anabaptists anatomiz'd and silenc'd in a pu tombes, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - tcp staff (michigan) sampled and proofread - tcp staff (michigan) text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a plea for anti-paedobaptists , against the vanity and falshood of scribled papers , entituled , the anabaptists anatomiz'd and silenc'd in a publique dispute at abergaveny in monmouth-shire sept. . . betwixt john tombes , john cragg , and henry vaughan , touching infant-baptism . by john tombes , b.d. job ii. , . should not the multitude of words be answered ? and should a man full of talk be justified ? should thy lies ( or devices ) make men hold their peace ? and when thou mockest , shall no man make thee ashamed ? london , printed by henry hills , and are to be sold at his house at the sign of sir john old-castle in py-corner , . a plea for anti-paedobaptists against the vanity and falshood of scribled papers . sect. i. the reason of this writing is rendred . there came newly to my hands a pamphlet , wherein the intitler speaks like a vain braggadochio , as if the book had ript up the anabaptists ( as he terms them ) and like a prelate had silenced them , though there was but one whom with any face it could be pretended that he was anatomized or silenced , who yet speaks and writes for the truth , which these opponents do endeavour to disgrace , and rejoiceth that he lives to find that these men have no other thing to charge him with than his contending for a reformation of that prophane abuse of infant-sprinkling , and that they have no other encouragement from him to persist in their paedobaptism , but a fond hope of his returning to that sinful practice . the libel hath a frontispice , which pretends to shew the manner of the anabaptists dipping , but most falsly , sith it represents it to the eyes of the beholders as if they held persons by the heels when they baptize them , which is otherwise than their practice . the pretended manner of laying on of hands , and washing of feet , is unknown to me , if they do use it , yet they have such likely proofs from heb. . . and our saviours practice and command john . as might have deterred the author of this frontispice from exposing the ordinance of baptism , and those other rites , to contempt , had he any reverence to holy things , and regard to chrisis appointment . but the frontispice of dr. featlies book , and this , with the epistles and other passages , do give occasion to intelligent persons to conceive that this sort of men do make but a sport of christs ordinance , and that they have little mind to search for , or receive truth , but to expose them that are for believers baptism , and against infant-sprinkling , to the contempt of light and profane wits , and to the hatred of the ignorant and superstitious common people . and i conceive that this book is published by men of that spirit , who seek to make odious the endeavoured reformation of ignorance , superstition , profanenesse , and ungodliness , which abounds in those parts , and to uphold those either loose or formal pretended ministers , who take upon them to teach , but do indeed , as elymas the sorcerer acts . pervert the right way of the lord . surely did they seek the truth in love , they would not so insult over tender consciences as they do , encourage the looser sort , and deter the enquiring souls from the wayes of christ , for my self , as i have found from others , so i deprehend in these men the same unrighteous spirit , in their reporting my answers , and publishing them in print , without my revising of them , though it were proposed , and as i remember yielded , by one , that in a private way , i should have his arguments sent to me in writing , & for the other after copies of his sermon sent me , yet i wrote to know whether he would own them , nor did publish any thing though i had sent some animadversions on the notes i received , of which i was told one copy was shewed to mr. cragg himself , and not disowned by him . and i do account it a shameful practice which these men , and another before have used towards me , that after i have been drawn to a verbal extemporary dispute , and no common notary agreed on , yet my answers are published by them without ever allowing me the sight of them , that i might either own them or amend them , afore the printing and publishing them . but i see , faction so prevails with them , that like as if they were of the romanists minds , they allow themselves liberty to use any arts as pious frauds to bear down the truth of antipaedobaptism . and this they do with so much insolency as may stir up the inconsiderate to trample upon their antagonist , and create prejudice against the truth . which hath necessitated me in this hast to write this . sect. ii. a view of the epistles is taken . who the j. t. p. or j. w. is i know not . what the first epistle saith of austins rule , it is neither true , for then the observation of an easter , and sundry other superstitious rites should be from the apostles , nor if it were true , is it true of infant-sprinkling that the whole church held it , sprinkling being not used in sundry ages instead of baptism , and infant-baptism , as it is now used , opposed by tertullian , and gregory nazianzen , and only the popish doctrine ( disclaimed by mr. cragg ) of the necessity of baptizing infants to their inheriting heaven , taught by the writers called fathers . as false it is that the baptizing believers ( called by these anabaptism ) had its spring and rise from nicolas stork , and others there named , it being commanded by christ , practiced by the apostles , continued in the first ages without any infant-baptism , and when infants were baptized , it was very rarely , onely in case of danger of the neernesse of death to the infant , and when reformation of other popish abuses was sought , the reformation of this was sought with the first , some hundreds of years afore luther . as vain is the assignation of the causes of anabaptism ( which is indeed true baptism ) whereas the true cause is the shining forth of light from the scriptures , and other authors , not discerned formerly as now . the true reason why our books and practice are permitted is , because they have at least so much appearance of truth as is sufficient to make wise men to let them alone , lest they haply should fight against god . the epistlers reasons are but his own ignorant surmises . though disputes are useful , yet such unworthy artifices as i find in and after them are a just reason for me to wave them , especially with such men as i have met with . what the successe hath been of the disputes mentioned its not so proper to me to enquire . the publishing of that at bewdley in so unbrotherly manner , hath , i imagine , diverted many from the truth , who if they had not been willing to be deluded , had never been caught with such a cheat as is the mock-titled book , plain scripture proof for infant-baptism . the rest of the disputes have not gained ( that i hear ) any credit to paedobaptism , but on the contrary , among the intelligent . it is true i was importuned to visit some friends at abergaveny , and did preach there , and some of the things the letter mentions i spake , and do still avouch . the two men mentioned were unknown to me , i slighted neither , though being wearied with preaching i did forbear to speak much , and was willing to get into a dry house from the rain . i was willing to have conference with mr. vaughan , who seemed modest and intelligent . the other opponent i found before to be a man of talk , who could not blush . that which the second epistle writes of my being wounded , and vaunting , is meerly fabulous , and i think the like of the short time of conceiving the dispute and sermon . it displeaseth me not , that the business should be truly stated , which is the end of this writing , though it displease me that such unworthy tricks are used to deceive people , as those which appear in the publishing this disputation and sermon . i intend not to lengthen the businesse by insisting on the falsity of the reports of my answer : it is not improbable i might in five hours dispute with one who talked so fast as to give no time to consider of what he said , answer not so cleerly as i would , had i had the arguments to view and examine deliberately . i presume it will be sufficient , for cleering truth , if either i shew how my answers are misreported , or how they are to be amended . sect. iii. mr. vaughans dispute is answered . to begin with mr. vaughans dispute . had it been framed into a syllogism it had been thus . they that were admitted lawfully into the covenant of grace by circumcision , may be admitted into the covenant of grace by baptism ; but infants were admitted lawfully into the covenant of grace by circumcision ; therefore they may be lawfully admited into the covenant of grace by baptism . to which had it been thus formed i should have said . . that it is false that either by circumcision or baptism infants or other persons are admitted into the covenant of grace , yea paedobaptists themselves suppose they are in the covenant of grace before , and therefore they are baptized : nor doth mr. vaughan shew how persons may be in congruous sense said to be admitted into the covenant of grace . . if it were true , yet it is certain that infants of unbelievers were admitted by circumcision as well as infants of believers , and so his medium proves as well the baptizing of unbelievers infants taken into a believers house , as believers . but in the manner he framed his reason i denied the consequence . and when he urged , it must be either because the covenant of grace made with abraham and his seed , is not the same in substance , withthat which is now actually in force with believers & their children , or secondly because baptism succeedeth not in the room of circumcision , i did rightly say i could deny your division . for there is another reason , viz. because there is not the same command of baptizing infants as there was of circumcising them , and yet that the disputation might proceed , i denyed the consequence , for both those reasons . and to what was replyed i answered rightly , that the covenant now in force according to gal. . . was not to the natural seed of abraham , but the spiritual ; nor is it true , that all the children of abraham were circumcised , for the females were not , or that they that were circumcised were consequently admitted into the covenant . for even mr. vaughan presently tells us , that ishmael though circumcised belonged not to the promise . now what is it to be admitted into the covenant , but to be admitted to the promise or participation of the covenant ? what he replyed further , that the covenant gen. . . was made alike , in the same extent and latitude , promiscuously with all the seed of abraham , even the natural , is most palpably false . for none but the spiritual seed of abraham , by believing , as he did , have the promise of righteousness , which is the covenant of grace , and ishmael is expiesly excluded gen. . , , . and he grants himself , none but the children of isaac were children of the promise , nor were the jewes , who were broken off because of their own unbelief , romans . . comprehended in the covenant of grace . romans . . proves cleerly that the covenant made to abraham and his seed as it was a covenant of evangelical grace was not made to all his natural seed , and so not to any of his natural seed , because they were by natural generation of him , but because elect of god . and it is false which mr. vaughan saith , the children of isaac ( he should have said isaac , and after him jacob ) are not called children of the promise in regard of any peremptory election , or aesignation to faith and salvation . for the contrary is manifest from verses , , . nor is it any thing contrary to the absolute decree of reprobation , that paul lamented , desired and prayed for the israelites , but his lamentation doth rather prove it that they were rejected , and desires and prayers may be even for that which may not be , as when christ prayed to have the cup passe from him . his reasons why the children of isaac are called children of the promise , are not to his purpose but against him . for . he doth thereby tacitly imply that none but the children of isaac were children of the promise , and therefore none but they in the covenant of grace . . if the reasons of the children of isaac their being called children of the promise were the inheritance of canaan , and the descent of christ , then only jacob was a child of the promise , not esau , and so it remains , the covenant gen. . . was not made to all the circumcised , nor they by circumcision admitted into the covenant gen. . . after his explication , it is cleer that the covenant of grace made with abraham and his seed is not the same in substance with that which is now actually in force with believers and their children , contrary to what he said before . . after this doctrine none are now children of the promise , sith there are none that inherit canaan according to that promise , nor from whom christ descends , and then if the promise be the same with the covenant of grace , none are now admitted into the same covenant , and consequently none to be baptized , according to mr. vaughans reasoning . what he saith he might have added , that if none but the elect and faithful can be admitted into the covenant , there is no subject left for the ordinance of baptism . i deny it . it goes upon this mistake , that none are to be admitted but those that are admitted into the covenant of grace , and known to be so : whereas persons that are disciples and believers by profession at least , are to be admitted to baptism , and no other ordinarily , whether they be admitted into the covenant of grace , or not . nor are we to baptize upon a judgement of charity , of thinking no evil , for then we must baptize turks infants as well as christians , nor upon a faith in the seed , or the parents actual faith , but their own profession . it is not true , no not according to mr. vaughan's own grant , that they were admitted into the same covenant by circumcision , into which we are now admitted by baptism , for we are not admitted into that covenant which hath the promise of the inheriitng the land of canaan , and descent of christ from us , which he before acknowledged to be promised in the covenant , gen. . neither need we say , that the circumcised had the righteousness of faith inherently in themselves , or that of their parents imputed to them , or that circumcision was a false seal . for neither is it said rom. . . of any mans circumcision but abrahams in his own person , nor of his , that it was the seal of the righteousness of faith to any but a believer . this was my answer , not as mr. vaughan mistook me , that circumcision was a seal onely of abrahams own faith in particular . nor is there a word rom. . . gen. . acts . . to prove that the covenant or promise was the same , and alike , to abraham and his seed , and to us believers , and to our children . nor is it true that cor. . . is meant of covenant holiness of children , nor doth he bring any proof that it is so . for that which he dictates , that there is certainly some special privilege set forth to the children of believers , accruing to them from believing parents , is false , the text ascribing nothing to the faith of the one parent , but to the conjugal relation . and for that which he saith , it was no news to tell them that they might have the lawfull use one of another , i say , though they might not doubt whether they might lawfully use one another when both were unbelievers , yet it is manifest the believer doubted whether it might be so still , and therefore the apostles telling them it might , was an apposite resolution of their doubt , whether it be to be called news or no : and their not doubting of the legitimation of their issue is the very reason from whence the apostle by an argument ad hominem infers , the continuance of their lawfull copulation . and what i said of the use of the words sanctified and holy , tim. . . thess . was right ; nor do i think mr. vaughan would have urged that text , as he doth , if he had read what i have written in the first part of my antipaedobaptism , in which is an ample disquisition of the meaning of that text , to which i refer mr. vaughan , and other readers , who shall be willing to search out the truth . what i said , that if baptism succeeded circumcision , and thence infant-baptism be deduced , female infant-baptism could not be thence inferred , for they were not circumcised , is manifest , nor is it pertinent which mr. vaughan brings to infringe it . for though females be granted to be in the covenant of circumcision , yet they were not circumcised , and if in the eys of all laws whatsoever women are but as ignoble creatures , and so not circumcised , this confirms what i allege , that by virtue of baptisms succession to circumcision their baptism cannot be inferred . what he thought to have told me about the proselites of righteousness , and the baptizing of their infants , i conceive i have considered and answered in the second part of my antipaedobaptism or full review , now in the press , in which the feebleness of dr. hammonds proof is shewed . it is neither true that col. . , . is an explanation of what is meant by the circumcision of christ , in these words , being buried with him in baptism nor any thing said of the analogy between circumcision and baptism , which mr. vaughan saith is so evident in this place , nor if it were doth it prove that our baptism succeeds the jewish circumcision . and what he grants , that col. . . rom. . , . immersion and emersion in baptism are alluded to , as the custom then of baptizing ; and that which he saith , that indeed it seemed to him that for some centuries of years , that baptism was practiced by plunging ; for sprinkling was brought first in use by occasion of the chinicks , taking what further is manifest , and not denied , that sprinkling is not baptizing but rantizing , it is manifest that in infant-sprinkling now in use there is a mockery , when the minister saith , i baptize thee , and yet doth not baptize but sprinkle or rantize . and it was truly said by me that it is a nullity , it being done neither on persons , nor in the manner christ appointed to be baptized , as the spaniards baptizing the americans was a meer nullity and mockery . not do i know why mr. vaughan should say , [ this concludes our selves and all our ancestours , even all in the western churches for fifteen hundred years , under damnation ] unless he imagine with the papists infant-baptism necessary to salvation . that which mr. vaughan saith , p. . of the churches power to alter any thing from the form of christs institution to be confessed by all divines , and that he is none that denies it , is not true , except he account none divines but the papists . for i know none but papists that do acknowledg that the church hath power to alter christs institution . nor in my practice do i acknowledg it . i plainly tell mr. vaughan i do use to administer the lords supper in the evening , and though . i do not say it was instituted by christ to be in the evening , yet because it is called the lords supper , and the apostle takes notice of the time , cor. . , &c. and the administring of it in the morning occasions many to think they must take it fasting , and not a few that they are first to receive christs body in the popish sense , i think it very requisite the lords supper be administred in the evening . the love-feasts i finde not appointed by christ , and therefore might be altered . but in requital of mr. vaughans advice to me , i advise him to take heed of that erroneous and dangerous tenet which avoucheth a power in the church to alter christs institution , which serves to justifie popish corruptions , and to condemn the practice of all the reformed churches . i fear to embroil the church of god : they do it who oppose the truth . i am willing to submit to the judgment of the church when they agree with christ , but to none but christ , in what he hath appointed . it is neither true that the practise of infant-baptism , much lese of infant-sprinkling , hath been fifteen hundred years : nor , if it were , is it so strange a thing , that god suffered such an error as that is . i thank mr. vaughan for his ingenuous grant , and his modest carriage , and with expressions of my pity of his being misled by the conceit of the churches power ( by which , what is meant is hard to say ) conceiving i have answered him sufficiently , i take my leave of him and pass on to mr. cragg . concerning whom the reader is to be premonished , that by reason of his fast speaking , and many words , i was often uncertain what to apply an answer to at the dispute . sect. iv. mr. cragg's dispute is examined . as for his preface i let it pass . his first euthymene ; pag. : some infants may not be baptized , therefore some infants may be baptized , is so frivolous , that i neither did then , nor do now think it worth any thing but contempt . for if the reasoning were good , it must be resolved into this syllogism , all that may not be baptized may be baptized , some infants may not be baptized , ergo , some infants may be baptized , there being no other way according to logick rules to make it good . any man of common sense might see the foolery of that argument . for if it be good he might in like manner say , some infants may not have the lords supper , therefore some infants may ; some boys are not to be ordained bishops , therefore some are . i denied the consequence , and mr. cragg not sensible of his folly prints a syllogism , which shews he proved not what was to be proved , which when i would have rectified by shewing what he should have concluded , he run on so fast in his vain prattle , that the reader may easily perceive i had reason to say , what would the man say ? the next argument is concerning the essence of baptism , which he saith , belonged to infants ; therefore they may be baptized , and then insinuates me to have been driven to absurdities in denying that baptism is a relation , and austins definition of a sacrament . to which i answer , . this proposition the essence of baptism belongs to infants , may have two senses , . that the baptism of infants is true baptism , that is , is according to transcendental verity such as hath the nature of baptism , and in this sense i grant the proposition is true , and so it is true that an infants eating bread and drinking wine is true eating and drinking the lords supper , it hath the essence of it ; but this i did not imagine he meant , and therefore denied his minor , till his next syllogism shewed he meant it , and then i perceived i should have denied the major . but his quickness and multiplying words would not permit me to recall my self . . the other sense is this , the essence of baptism , that is , that which is of the essence to right administration of baptism belongs to infants , in which sense i denied it , nor doth his argument from the definition prove it , for it is all one as to argue , infant-baptism is baptism , therefore it is right baptism . as for the absurdities he imputes to me , i deny them to be absurdities . for i take baptism to be either an action or passion , though christian baptism have a relation superadded , and so in the use is a sign , and the genus of it , which is of the essence , i should make an action . as for the other absurdity , i do confess that the term sacrament being but a term invented by latine fathers may be laid aside , nor is there any common nature of sacraments expressed in scripture . and i confess i take austins definition , if it be his , that a sacrament is a visible sign of invisible grace , to be but imperfect , sith it may be applied to the descent of the holy ghost as a dove , christs washing of his disciples feet , a persons kneeling and holding up his hands to pray , the kissing of the bible , and many other actions which are not sacraments , i confess i was weary of these quirks , and imagining that he used them onely to weary me , and blunt my attention , and to make some oftentation of himself , i replied not to his vain talk , but called for scripture-proof . as for that which he saith , i denyed all that were church-members were to be baptized , and yet affirmed it in my sermon : in both i said true , the former being understood of invisible , the latter of visible church-members . in the argument pag. . those whom god did promise before the law , foretell under the law , actually receive into covenant under the gospel , those god did appoint church-members under the gospel . but , &c. ergo . had not mr. craggs quickness hindered me , i had shewed the vanity of the major , as well as denied the minor . for if he mean by [ church-members ] visible church-members , and by [ actually receiving into covenant ] understand such an actual receiving as is without any act of faith or profession of the persons received into covenant , as i conceive he doth , i deny the major . but i also denied the minor . in the next proof he changeth the term [ of actually receiving ] into [ being in covenant ] now there is a manifest difference between them , sith a person may be in covenant , that is , have a covenant made to him , who is not yet born , as isaak , gen. . . but he is not actually received into covenant till he be born , and by some acts of his own engageth himself to be gods : receiving importing an offering , which is to be done by profession . as for his proof from gen. . . i had many exceptions against it . first , that if it be understood of the natural seed of abraham the everlastingness of it was but for a time , and that time afore the gospel , as in the next verse , the possession of canaan is promised to be everlasting , and yet the jews dispossessed now of it . which mr. cragg grants , and therefore must needs grant that the promise verse . though it be termed everlasting , yet it is to be understood onely of a limited time , as in other passages , exod. . . & . &c. if meant of the natural seed of abraham . nor is he resieved by saying , they shall have canaan again , for however the possession was not everlasting , that is , at all times , particularly not in gospel-times . as for his proof of the continuance of the gospel covenant unto the end of the world , to abraham and his seed , the very text he allegeth , gal. . . doth manifestly express the thing promised to be justification , and that of the heathen , and that through faith , that had not the man a face which could not blush , he would have been ashamed to have urged it to prove , that abrahams natural seed were promised to be in covenant under the gospel . and his next allegation is as vain , that because deut. . , . the whole congregation of israel are said to stand before the lord with their little ones , to enter into covenant , therefore the covenant gen. . . is to continue to infant natural seed of abraham to the end of the worlds whereas the speech is onely of a transient fact , not of a command , much less of a promise of something perpetually future , and what is said of the little ones is as well said of wives , hewers of wood , and drawers of water , and therefore if thence be concluded a continuance of covenant to infants , a continuance of covenant to wives and servants will be concluded . his allegation of heb. . . is as vain , for he brings it to prove , that if infants were in covenant under the law , they are in covenant under the gospel , whereas the meliority of the covenant is not placed in the extent to the sort of persons , for then it should be extended to more sorts than the covenant of the law was , but to the meliority of the promises , which were of better things , or better terms , then the promises of the law , but not to any other than elect and true believers , and so not to infants as the natural seed of believers . and for that which he saith , this unchurcheth the one half of christendome , and leaves them no ordinary means of salvation , if he mean by christendome all that are commonly called christians , i grant it , if the infants be the one half of them , and their unchurching be in respect of visible church-membership , but count it no absurdity . nor do know what ordinary means of salvation he conceives they are left without except baptism , which i take not to be an ordinary means of salvation without faith , and therefore think it no inconvenience to say that infants are without ordinary means of salvation , which are the preaching the word , &c. yet are saved by the election of god , redemption of christ , and work of his spirit . what i said , that the covenant under the gospel was made onely with the spiritual seed of abraham , was right , and determined so rom. . , , . rom. . , . gal. . . john . . &c. nor is it true because the partition wall is broken down , therefore there is the same covenant national to the natural seed of believers as was to abraham , but that therefore as the apostle speaks ephes. . . the gentiles ( to wit believing gentiles , rom. . . ) should be fellowheirs , and of the same body , and partakers of his promise in christ by the gospel . nor is it ture , that the gospel covenant is made with the whole visible church , as the gospel covenant is expressed , heb. . , , , , , , . and if i denied the major pag. . in the first argument , i confess i was mistaken through inadvertency , whether by reason of mr. craggs fast speaking , or some humane infirmity , or some other occuirence now not remembred , i cannot tell . but i deny the minor understood of the gospel covenant , heb. . . and the whole visible church being taken without any synecdoche for every visible churchmember . but i perceive by mr. craggs words page . if the church in regard of outward administration of ordinances ( which is the question ) were only the elect , &c. that the terms church and covenant were so ambiguously used by him , that i knew not how to conceive of his meaning , and his fast speaking would not permit me deliberately to consider his words , and therefore no marvel i desired liberty to explain my self , and to enquire into mr. craggs meaning , it being impossible for me otherwise to answer appositely , and to make the disputation profitable for finding out truth . as for that which mr. cragg saith , that it was the question whether the church in regard of outward administration of ordinances were onely the elect , it doth untruly suggest as if i so conceived , who , though i hold the church invisible are the elect onely , and that the gospel covenant of grace , heb. . , , . is made to them only , yet have still granted that the church visible consists of others than elect persons , and that outward ordinances may lawfully be administred to them upon their profession of faith in christ . but mr. cragg by confounding these terms [ to be in covenant , to be subjects of baptism , &c. ] misleads unwary hearers and readers . the next text mr. cragg brought was isaiah . . whence he would prove that infants should be churchmembers under the gospel . to which my answer was at first ( though it was otherwise taken ) that it is a prophecy that the gentiles should bring back the jewes , not only infants but others , from captivity , which the words before verse , , . and after verse , . do plainly evince ; and this is given as the meaning by the new annotations made by mr. gataker , who doth on verse . say , it was fulfilled in those persian potentates , cyrus , artaxerxes , darius , ahasuerus . nor is there in the contents of the chapter ( which mr. cragg without ground makes the judgement of the church of england ) any thing to the contrary , but the words , which are [ . the ample restauration of the church , . the powerfull deliverance out of the captivity ] do rather confirm this . if any people laughed at this , they shewed their ignorance , and mr. cragg shewed his heedlessness when he said , that it was an addition to the text that the gentiles should bring the lewes , when the very distinction of [ thy children ] from [ the gentiles ] shews it meant of the jewes , otherwise it should have been [ their children ] in the third person , not [ thine ] in the second ; nor can it be meant of gods children as his , for then it should be [ mine ] in the first person , for god speaks those words . though i deny not but the words may be accommodated to the times of the gospel , but not to mr. craggs purpose of bringing infants to baptism , which hath no colour from the text . which appears by considering mr. craggs answer to my questions put forth needfully to cleer the text . for . if by [ standard ] be meant [ baptism ] which the scripture never calls gods standard , and the bringing should be to baptism , then the sense should be that supreme magistrates as kings & and queens should bringinfants in their arms , and carrythem on shoulders to baptism , which no story ever mentions to have been done , and is too srivolous to be made the matter of that prophecy . . the terms [ nursing fathers , and nursing mothers ] shew it to be a metaphor , wch mr. cragg granting , though it follow not , that nothing could be gathered from it , yet it follows , that mr. craggs application , which is according to the proper sense of the words , is not right . what i said , that it was fulfilled in hesters time , i said rightly , and mr. gataker before me in those annotations of his which are taken for the most incomparably learned , and hester as a queen among the gentiles , might well be stiled a nursing mother to the jewes . i will not trouble my self to examine mr. craggs dictates , but refer the reader to the notes of mr. gataker . as for what i said , that though it should be understood of the times of the gospel , yet it might be meant of grown men perswaded by the preaching of the gospel , as junius in his annot. was true . nor doth the bringing in the bosome being a metaphor prove they were infants . and if so , the church is spoken to , and the children were both the gentiles children , and yet [ thy children ] that is the churches . and so there 's no interfering in my words . the next text was isaiah . . in reading which mr. cragg left out those words , nor an old man that hath not filled his daies , nor would read them , nor the words following , ver. , . i perceived he meant nothing but fallacy , and yet he added impudence to it in accusing me as urging it to deceive the people , when his own course , in concealing what would have cleered the text , had a manifest shew of deceit , and mine of plain dealing . as for his interpretation , there shall be no more an infant of daies , that is , infants shall not be uncapable of the seal , it hath no proof but his dictate , and it is without all shew of probability , there being not a word of any such thing as ou●ward ordinances , but of peace , increase , possession , and long life , as the verses before and after shew . the like is to be said of his interpretation of the other part of the verse , the child shall dy an hundred years old , that is , as an hundred years old , or as well a churchmember as if he were a hundred years old , when the term [ as ] is added to the text . to which he replyed that i do put in [ as ] cor. . . and rom. . . but this latter is false . i grant i do so interpret [ baptized cor. . ] because otherwise the proposition were not true , and the sense is plain according to this sense , were baptized , that is , their passage through the sea and under the cloud was to them as if they had been baptized , and so did grotius expound it , which is the same with that which others mean when they say , they were analogically baptized . but in isaiah . . there is no need of such an interpretation , and that i may use the words of mr. gataker annot. on isaiah . . the syntax is familiar , and as cleer as the day-light or sunshine : the child or youth ( that now is ) shall dy the son of an hundred years ; that is , shall be an hundred years old when he dyeth . nor is this contrary to the contents , which though they be intituled to the church of england , yet there is no canon or act of any synod which did ever make them so , and who ever framed them , yet i think it no disparagement to say that mr. gataker understood the text as well or better than he : and this text was rightly made by me answerable to zach. . . nor is there either absurdity or ●ntruth , or blasphomy in my interpretation : which might be shewed by transcribing mr. gatakers forementioned notes on isaiah . , , . were it not i am forced to be brief . what i said about dr. prideaux his use was true , that he would require the respondent afore he answered to read the text , and consider it , which is necessary in divinity disputes , however respondents be restrained in other disputes . and for my explosion at oxford it is a meer figment , and that neither dr. savage , nor the doctor of the chair , did avoid my argument by their answer is manifest enough from dr. savage his own recital of his answer in his printed book , and this had been shewed in print ere this but that the printer failed to print my answer in the fit time . the frivolous conceit of my fear of mr. craggs gunshot is foolish ; i do not count mr. craggs arguments to be of so much force as a squib . as for his argument from mat. . . i answered , that all nations or whole nations did not include every part , all nations being taken synecdochically for the disciples of all nations . as for his division i gave the genuine reason why infants are excepted from the precept of baptizing , because they are no disciples . nor was there any defect in logick when i did not reduce it to one of his members . for [ capable of baptism ] and [ disciples ] are not terms subordinate , but distinct , though without opposition . and though to be disciples made them capable , yet there is a difference between the terms . i presume mr. cragg thinks baptized persons already disciples , yet not capable of baptism . what he saith of me , that i found fault with him at rosse for translating {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} make disciples of all nations , i am as sure is his fiction , as that i spake any thing there to him . nor will , i think , any man believe i should do so , except he found me now crazed in my brain , that hath either read my examen par . . s. . or . or shall read that part of my review now in press , in which i often assert that translation , and largely answer objections to the contrary in the fifth , sixth , seventh , eighth , ninth , &c. of that book . in which book i shall at large answer all that mr. baxter hath said to prove infants disciples from acts . . as for what mr. cragg saith here , it is frivolous . for though v. . . there is mention of circumcision , yet not of circumcision as acted on infants , but as taught brethren , and when the apostles v. . did consider of the matter , they did not consider of circumcision as acted but as taught , and not only of circumcision , but also of imposing the whole law of moses as necessary , which was the putting the yoke v. . and it is ridiculous to conceive that those teachers mentioned verse . did attempt to do any thing to infants , and therefore it is a meer wrangling to contend that the disciples on whom they would have put the yoke , verse . were infants , contrary to the constant use of the term throughout all the new te●●ament some hundreds of time . as so : mr. craggs arguments from acts . , . it is false that the apostles inference is as mr. cragg insinuated , unless his argument have four terms , that they may be baptized to whom is the promise . for the apostle expresseth a duty in the imperative mood , not a ●ight in the indicative or potential , it is [ be baptized ] not [ may be baptized ] as in mr. craggs conclusion . i excepted that those parents were not then believers , which mr. cragg co●●●●ied in saying , they were believers in fieri , though not perhaps in facto , which is all one as to say they were not yet believers , but in the way to it . as for his saying , they were believers by outward assent and disposition , though perhaps not by inward assent and habit . i reply . if they were by disposition , how were they not by inward assent ? . how doth he know they were believers by outward assent and not by inward ? doth he know they were hypocrites ? . what act did they shew which expressed outward assent to the acknowledgement of christ as their lord ? what mr. cragg saith he knows of me , and tells of a ministers rule , is a fault he chargeth me with as not pertaining to the dispute . what he saith , that acts . . repentance is not made a condition of being baptized , is in my apprehension manifestly false . for the requiring repentance as first to be done , and then baptism to be annexed doth make it a condition of baptism , as when it is said , believe and thou shalt be saved , belief is made a condition of salvation . his talk about incompleat repentance , because they were pricked in their hearts , as a sufficient qualification for baptism , doth make the apostles speech as idle , which requires that which they had already , if mr. cragg say true ; but who will believe mr. cragg that the apostle required no more to baptism but an incompleat repentance or pricking the heart , v. . which it is said they had before ? or that he took that as a sufficient qualification for baptism , and yet required more as previous to it ? or who will believe him that the . jewes were baptized upon an incompleat repentance , when the text expressely saith , then they that gladly received the word were baptized ? or that there was no new act of peter , but a recapitulation of the heads of his sermon that he preached to them before they were pricked in conscience , or were exhorted to be baptized , when the text saith , with many other words he testified and exhorted ? or that there was any , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , putting that as done after , which was done before , when the text doth so expresly note the order of time , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which our translatours render [ then ] and if it be rendred [ therefore ] it proves that which was done v. . to be consequent on that which was done before ver. . to the argument , to whom the promise of grace belonged , to them baptism belongs also : but the promise of grace belongs to believers and their children . ergo . to this i answered out of the text , when they are called , or are believers , not before , it neither belongs to fathers nor children without calling . to this mr. cragg replyed , . that the verb is in the indicative present tense , which implies , it is to them for the present , as well to your children as to you . . the opposition is between them and their children as near , to distinguish them as to whom the promise was at present from them to whom it was afar of , that is in the future , but all this is frivolous . for . the verb is in the indicative mood when it is said , the promise is to those that are afar off , as well as when it is said , the promise is to you and your children . . their being afar off is not in respect of time , but of place or dwelling , and the meaning is , they that are in the dispersion as it is called james . . or if it were meant in the sense that it is used ephe. . . ( not romans . . as mr. cragg miscites ) yet they are said to be afar off in respect of gods favour , or their affection to him , not in respect of time . lastly , it is frequent , even in speeches like this , to put the indicative mood present tense , by an enallage of tense , for the future , as matth. . ; . i added , that by [ children ] is no necessity to understand infants , yet mr. cragg contrary to the common use , as ephe. . . col. . . would have [ children ] restrained to infants . . because of the notation of the word , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is from {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to bring forth , which i think he saith falsly is given sometimes to children in the womb , but if it be , then it overthrowes his notation , for then {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is not from {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to bring forth , for a child in the womb is not yet brought forth . but how doth it appear that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} signifies properly a young child ? or that child is analogum to old and young ? i had hitherto thought child and parent had been relatives , and that child signifies as well an elder as a younger . to that of the verb of the present tense answer is before how doth mr. cragg prove that their children they had were young children ? it is vainly supposed that the promise is to them & their children , as the jews children were in covenant with their parents . the text makes it to belong neither to parents nor children , but those that god cals ? does mr. cragg think that the unbelieving jews had the promise ? and yet they were in covenant in his sense before , even the whole nation ? or doth he think that christs bloud was not avenged on them ? if it were , how was the remedy as large as the disease ? next mr. cragg argues thus , they that are holy with a covenant-holiness are capable of the outward visible part of blessing : but infants of believers are holy with a covenant-holiness ; therefore they are capable of the outward and visible part . of which syllogism i might have denied the major , there being a covenant-holiness according to election , which doth not always instate the person in that which he calls the outward visible part of the blessing , by which he means title to baptism . but i denied the minor , understanding it of the outward covenant-holiness as they call it , which i truly said , is gibberish , and however vossius , bullinger ( for grotius i think means otherwise ) conceive of it , or the assembly , yet it is a meer mistake , and that holiness of children which is mentioned cor. . . is truly said by me to be onely matrimonial holiness , or legitimation . and his argument out of mr. baxter i justly retorted , that in six hundred times in which holy is used in scripture , in none of them it is found for outward covenant-holiness intituling to baptism : which is a right way of answering , though it be called indirect by the logicians . and as for that he replies that rom. . . i confessed at ross covenant-holiness is meant , i grant it , but not outward covenant-holiness intituling to baptism , but that real saving holiness which is according to the election of grace , according to which iews elected shall hereafter be graffed in again . i said , ezra . . holy seed is all one with a legitimate seed according to the law of moses . against this it is objected , that then the meaning should be , the holy seed , that is the lawfully begotten iews , have mingled themselves with the seed of these lands , that is the bastards of those lands but i deny this consequence . the sense is this , the holy seed , that is , those who were descended by lawfull generation of allowed women , these have taken to themselves of the daughters of the nations whom god forbad them to marry , which is plain out of the vers , . so that the people of the land with whom they mingled themselves , are not considered as illegitimate in there birth , but as not allowed to the israelites , and yet the holy seed is that seed which by a right generation according to moses law was legitimate . as for what he saith , that iepthe was a saint and yet a bastard , it is true , he was holy in one respect as borne from above , yet unholy by naturall birth . and whereas he saith , moses had childeren by an ethiopian woman , and yet not unholy , i grant it : for the ethiopian woman was not forbidden : nor were rahab though a canaanitess , nor ruth a moabitess when they joyned themselves to the god of israel prohibited , or there children illegitimate : yet this is not the same with covenant-holiness , intituling to church-ordinances , but legitimation intituling to be reckoned in the genealogy and inheritance of israel . the last argument mr cragg used was this , they that christ took up in his arms , blessed , said , the kingdom of god belonged unto them , pronounced a curse upon those that despised , and would not receive them , are holy with a covenant-holiness ; but christ lock up little children into his arms , blessed them , said , the kingdom of god belonged unto them , pronounced a curse upon those that despised , and would not receive them : therefore little children are holy with a covenant-holiness . in this argument i denied the minor , after some debate about the way of forming of it , in which i imagined that fallacy i do not now upon fight deprehend , & particularly i denied , that christ pronounced a curse upon those that despised and would not receive them . then he alleged mat. . . whence he argued , they to whom belongs the kingdom of heaven are holy & in covenant : but to little children belongs the kingdom of heaven ; therefore little children are holy and in covenant . in which argument any reader may perceive he proved not what i denied , that christ pronounced a curse upon those that despised , and would not receive little children or infants , and yet that text he alleged did not say of little children , that to them belongs the kingdom of heaven , but those that were not to be offended , v. . despised , v. . were to be received in christs name , v. . were not little children in age , but little ones in spirit , which appeared in that they are said to be believers , v. . and to be converted , and become as little children . to which , as the relator himself sets it down , mr. cragg said , the meaning is not , that the little children are converted , which is a grant of what i alleged , that the little ones not to be offended , despised , but received , were not little children in age , but affection of humility . mr. cragg added , but it hath relation to the desciples in the first verse , who must be converted from their actual sins , and become as little children which have no actual sin . at which words it is true , i said , and that justly , o how unhappy are the people that are seduced with these toys , are you not ashamed ? to which he replied , and it seems is not ashamed that it is printed , i see nothing worthy of shame : whereas if this speech of his were true , then this is a truth , except men be converted from their actual sins , and become as little children , which have no actual sin , they shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven : for this is the meaning of christs words , matth. . . according to mr. craggs interpretation , which whosoever believes must of necessity despair of heaven , sith as james saith , chap. . . in many things we offend all : and john . epist. chap. . ver. . if we say that we have no sin , we deceive our selves , and the truth is not in us . that which mr. cragg added , that the disciples were believers which are meant matth. . . and not the children , and yet saith , his argument remains unanswered , hath more of impudence in it . for his argument being that christ pronounced a curse on them that despised and received not little ones in age , and yet confessing that this was meant not of little ones in age , but disciples , believers in him , it is the heighth of impudency to say his argument is unanswered , when his own confession answerd it . justly here , after five hours time , having promised but one , did i breakoff , and having had experience of mr. craggs meet cavilling at rosse and abergaveny , dwelling many miles from that town , and finding nothing in him , and those other paedobaptists i have answered , but a spirit of wrangling , i yielded not to any other dispute , nor shall for time to come , being now sufficiently taught by experience what dealing i am like to have , yield to such disputes . as for that which mr. cragg saith , he was hurried to that extemporal discourse through importunity , i do not believe it , being advertised before , that if i came to abergaveny he would oppose me . that the speech of him that said i answered nothing , was the speech of an impudent , brazen-faced fellow , i think any will judge who reads this my writing . for mr. baxter , whatever his worth be , yet how justly i might say ( though the words set down were not used as the relator expresseth them ) that i have answered all he saith against me , will appear in the review of the dispute between him and me , and others , of which part of it is printed , part in the press , and the rest ( if the lord permit ) shall not be slackned . mr. craggs arguments from john . . romans . and other places , if they be not in his sermon ( to the examining of which i now hasten ) yet are they in other books answered by me : i shall take some view of his sermon on which i had made some animadversions before , according to the imperfect copy i had then , and sent them to a ergaveny , but have them not now by me in london , yet however in this straight of time i think it necessary to write thus much . sect. v. mr. craggs sermon is examined . first he saith [ and is baptized ] pag. . to be a conditional qualification , and yet in the dispute he denyed that repentance is a condition of baptism acts . . his observation out of dr. buckeridge p. . is frivolous , for the apostle cor. . . saith as well of apostles as of ordinary pastors and teachers , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} he for them , or , if he will , fixed them . but it seems mr. cragg hath a special tooth at itinerants , though his relator claw mr. cr. and mr. w. but what he saith , that it is too strict an interpretation to expound mark . . of men of age and understanding , excluding children , shews he little considers what he saith . for if it be so , then christ , commandeth the apostles to preach the gospel to infants , and sith mr. cragg is bound to do so , he sheweth that he sins against his own light , if he do not so . but how foolish it would be for him to attempt it , his own words shew , when he saith , infants are not capable to be taught of men . and when he saith , that infants only in actu primo are capable of the first seeds of understanding , of profession of faith , i would know , in what sense they are sensible of the benefit they have by christ . and whereas he grants , that baptism is necessary by necessi●y of precept if conveniently it may be had , it is all i assested in my sermen , when i said all that would be saved must be baptized after profession . if austin were a hard father to infants for holding they must be baptized or not see the kingdom of god , then mr. cragg cannot gather from john . . infants baptism . from mark . . is rightly gathered that believing is to be before baptism , and yet from mark . . it is not rightly gathered that we must be baptized , before we can hear the word preached or repent ; for the text doth not express that john baptized afore he preached , but recites these two as connexed , yet the latter is put first , not because first done , but because he was to set down more amply what he preached . though we cannot know that the person to be baptized hath a saving faith , yet a saving faith is the rule of baptism to the person baptized , he should not undertake that ordinance without a saving faith ; and in respect of the baptizer , so far as he can discern , he should require a saving faith of those he baptizeth . dipping over head , or baptizing over head , after profession of faith , is no invention of man , but the command of christ , practice of the apostles , and their successors for many ages , and infant-baptism was opposed many ages afore john of leyden , who though he were otherwise not to be justified , yet i do not remember that any hath written he ever confessed that he had that doctrine from satan . but mr. cragg saith , baptizing is in greek any washing whether by dipping or sprinkling . and he cites ravanel who hath made a dictionary according to the present use of terms . but he shews not out of any of the pillars , as he calls them , of the greek tongue , that baptizing in greek ever signifies to sprinkle . he confesses that casaubon in his notes on matth. . . distinguisheth between baptizing and rantizing or sprinkling , but saith , the whole state of the question is determined against me , because he addes , that their judgement is deservedly long since exploded , and trampled down , that would have baptizing to be by dipping , seeing the force and efficacy of this mystery consists not in that . but . by mr. craggs leave the question is plainly determined for me by casaubon , when he distinguisheth between baptizing and sprinkling , for that is the question , not wherein the efficacy and force of the mystery consists . . though casaubon were a very learned man , yet this speech of his is not right . for we are to observe what christ appoints , though the efficacy and force of the mystery of sacrament consist not in it , as we are to break bread , not take a wafer-cake down whole , drink wine in the lords supper , because of the institution , though the force and efficacy of the mystery consist not in it . mr. craggs speeches out of aquinas and dominicus à sato , are of no weight with them who know who those doctors were , to wit , papists , and very unskilful in the greek language . it is as vain which mr. cragg saith the israelites were baptized when their feet did but touch the water , for the text saith exo. . . they walked upon dry land in the middest of the sea , and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand and on their left , and therefore their feet did not so much as touch the water , much less were they sprinkled with it . and if the israelites were baptized in the cloud , and yet no water upon them , then the text cor . . . doth not prove baptizing to be by sprinkling , but proves plainly that as hugo grotius said they were baptized , that is , they were as if they had been baptized , or as other , they were analogically baptized , that is in proportion , or likeness , not formally , that is according to what is meant by that term . it is without proof , yea false which mr. cragg saith , where is mention●●●●●● in the gospel of washing themselves , of cups , of vessels , of tables , this cannot be meant of plunging in water , so often , but rinsing . for water was not so scarce but that they might do it by dipping as well as sprinkling . he might have seen ainsworth on levit. . . who out of the hebrew canons tells us , all that are unclean , whether men or vessels , are not cleansed , but by dipping ( or baptizing ) in water : and wheresoever the law speaketh of washing a mans flesh , or washing of clothes for uncleanness , it is not but by dipping the whole body therein . me thinks mr. cragg should allow anabaptists to make consequences though they allow not his . and that john baptists and philips going down into the water , proves something me thinks mr. cragg should not deny , sith it cannot reasonably be imagined they should go down , not to the water , as mr. cragg would have it , but into the water , whereas for baptizing a person a man might easily have fetched or taken water out of any spring to baptize with , if it had been so to be done by sprinkling , and not by dipping . but if he please to see a book intituled of baptism , written by an eminent man in the state , he might see many of the prime writers , even leading protestants , gathering dipping thence , as used then in baptizing . the like they do from john . . of which whatever geographer or traveller saith , enon ( where john baptized ) was a little brook that one may stride over scarce knee deep , and therefore not capable of dipping ( which doth not follow ) deserves not to be believed in this . out of rom. , we do not press a necessity of dipping , because of the resemblance , but from the resemblance alluded to shew the use then , ingenuously confessed by mr. vaugban , and therefore should be the use still . nor doth it follow , we must ly● three daies and nights in water , the resemblance of christs burial is to be continued though not the duration . whatever other resemblance there may be of our burial with christ , yet we are to follow the institution and practice set down in scripture , from which he that swerves ( as sprinkless do ) do sin against christs command , whatever any divines or assemblies of men say to the contrary . it is well mr. cragg confesseth , that if he were to baptize converted turks or pagans of ripe age he might baptize them by dipping : it shews that it is only for infants sake that the institution of christ is altered , and so one corruption hath brought in another . what he addes , provided their garments were not first baptized or washed , intimates he would have them naked , which mr. baxter would conclude to be against the sixth and seventh command , and he may do well to school mr. cragg for it . his reason is as foolish , though the garments be baptized in water , yet are not baptized with that use that the person is , but by accident , nor baptized as bells to drive away devils , nor is by baptizing the garment any worship done to it , as the church of rome doth to the image : for then the baptizing the body should be worshipping it , the garments and body are not worshipped at all by baptizing , and therefore foolishly is it compared to romish superstition and idolatry . he that affirms that baptizing without dipping is not lawful , that it is will-worship , that the sprinkling used is a nullity , that notwithstanding such pretended baptism , yet baptism remains a duty , speaks but truth . the decree of the senate of zurick was an unrighteous decree , which , whatever state follows , it will draw the guilt of murdering innocent persons on it , and mr. cragg by reciting it with seeming approbation , doth make it probable that he is a bloody-minded man , who would rejoice to see innocent men , who out of tenderresse of conscience follow the plain rule of christ , so put to death : which it s not unlikely to be the aim of his , or his complices printing this book against those he calls anabaptists , that he might stir up either magistrates or furious common people against them . mr. cragg saith , he hath resolved the former doubt , that baptizing is not dipping , and yet page . the authors he cites , and by citing approves , do all make dipping or dying one of the first of its significations . now he undertakes to prove that infants may , nay ought to be baptized . and he begins as an advocate for infants with this childish preface , that those poor souls cannot speak for themselves , as if in speaking for their baptism he spake for them , when he doth thereby rather speak for that which is to their hurt , and calls them poor souls , whom before he called saints . there is more in his pittyfull preface , he supposeth , if the apostles had been asked , why they did not put down infant-baptism in plainer terms , they would have answered , that they thought none would have denyed it . and i suppose they would have answered , that they thought none would have affirmed it , being quite against christs appointment , and their practice , who had then no such custome , nor the churches of god . the rest , as it is taken from mr. baxter , so it is answered in the answer to him now in the press sect. . le ts view mr. craggs arguments . his first is , those that are in covenant with god ought to have the seal of the covenant which is baptism ; but infants of believing parents are in covenant with god ; ergo . he saith , the former proposition is firm by the confession of all diviues , even our adversaries , and cites five , but not where they say it , nor is any one his adversary in this point . it is true ferus was a popish frier , though more ingenuous than most of them . but doth mr. cragg think we must take that for true , which protestants and papists do avow without any proof from scripture ? if so , then let us lay aside the scripture , and read their books . but he might know , and t is likely did know , that i ( though i will not take on me the name of a divine ) yet have denyed , yea and proved his former proposition to be false exam. par . . sect. . letter to mr. bayly sect. . anti-pae lob . or full review first part sect. . which shall be fully vindicated ( god assisting ) in the third part . yea were his arguing good , it would prove infants were wronged because they had not the communion . for i can as well from his own medium prove that they are to have it , as he baptism . the minor he takes on him to prove from genesis . . but there is not a word of infants of believing parents . but to prove it he ci es cornelius à lapide , a jesuit , for him , and yet had he not falsly translated his words , the words would have appeared to be against him . for whereas he renders them in , the spiritual seed to the faithful ( which mars his sense ) it is , in the spiritual seed the faithful . so likewise gal. . . though there be not the term abrahams seed , yet it is directly against him , for it asserts justification to the believing gentiles onely from abrahams promise , not a promise to them and their seed . i deny not but that isaac was in covenant with god , that is , a child of the promise , not onely when he was but eight days old , but also afore the seventh , yea afore he was born ; but when he saith , he had the seal ( meaning circumcision ) by virtue of the lamb to be slain , it is strange divinity to me , who never heard or read that any person was circumcised by virtue of christs death , but by reason of gods command . and that which he saith , much more the children of believing parents by virtue of the lamb that is already slain , which seems to intimate , that circumcision is due to them much more , and that by virtue of christs death , is a foppery like to the authors ingeny . he saith , deut. . . when all the people stood in covenant before the lord , their little ones are mentioned amongst the rest . and are not their wives , and servants , hewers of wood , and drawers of water ? are all these in covenant with god ? how doth he prove they were believers infants ? the words v. . seem to make to the contrary . it is no shift but a manifest truth , that those , acts . , . to whom peter said , the promise is to you and your childdren , were not then believers in christ , when the words were spoken to them . for , . the apostle exhorts to repentance , therefore they had not yet repented , and so were not believers . mr. cragg himself , pag. . in this sermon saith , repentance is a fruit and effect of faith , therefore according to him , not before it . and in the dispute , pag. . he made them believers in fieri , with an incompleat repentance , though perhaps not believers in facto , . v . . he exhorted them with more words , and then v. . some of them gladly received the word , and were believers . yet peter said to them before they were believers , the promise is to you and your children , nor is there a word in the text that makes it clear , that as soon as they were believers their children were in covenant with them , and to be baptized . his second argument is , such as were circumcised under the law may be baptized under the gospels : but infants of believers were circumcised under the law ; therefore they may be baptized under the gospel . he cites whitaker saying , all the anabaptists shall not be able to resist this argument . i answer , notwithstanding so learned a mans conceit , it hath not the force of a feather so as to need resistance . to it i answer , . indirectly by retortion . such as were circumcised under the law may be baptized under the gospel : but infants of unbelievers , as the males bought with abrahams money of the stranger , not of his seed , gen. , , , , . persons out of covenant as ishmael , gen. , , , . were circumcised under the law : ergo . if the one be irresistible so is other . . directly , by denying the major if it be universal ; if not , the syllogism is naught , concluding from particulars . his proofs are vain . that from austin is of no force , unless it be supposed , . that by circumcising under the law , and baptizing under the gospel , the grace of god is conferred , which is a popish conccit . circumcision did binde to the keeping of the law , but never that i finde is the grace of god said to be either physically or morally conferred by the circumcision of each person rightly circumcised . . it supposeth , if infants be not baptized , the grace of god is straiter in the new testament than in the old . but that is false . for the grace of god is as much without sacraments as with it . above two thousand years before abrham was circumcised there was neither circnmcision nor baptism of infants , nor any other sacrament instead thereof ; shall we say that gods grace was straiter before abrahams time than since ? as bad as the schoolmen were , who gave too much to sacraments , yet they held , that the grace of god is not tied to sacraments . that question from heb. . . how were it a better covenant , if all poor infants that were in covenant under the law were out of covenant under the gospel , runs upon these common mistakes , that to be circumcised or baptized is all one as to be in covenant ; all that were in covenant were to be circnmcised or baptized ; all that were not , were out of covenant ; that the reason of the circumcising or baptizing a person is his being in covenant , which are all false , as i have proved exam. part. . sect. . letter to mr. baily , sect. . antipaed . part. . sect. . and shall part. . in many sections , if god permit . and to the question i answer from the next words , heb. . . the new covenant is a better covenant because it is established on better promises , though it were imagined never a poor infant ( as he childishly speaks ) which yet i do dot conceive , were in covenant . the next from tit. . . supposeth , if infants be not to be baptized , the grace of god appears not to them , which is of no force , unless that popish conceit obtain , that by it , and not without it , gods grace appears to all . but this is false , and not in the text . irenaeus words are not that christ was a little one , that little ones might be baptized from his example , for then he would have been baptized in infancy , whereas he was not baptized till about thirty years of age . we need not deny christs redemption of infants , because we deny their baptism , there 's no such connexion between them . his saying of little ones that they were the first martyrs that suffered for christ , is false . for how were they martyrs who testified nothing concerning christ ? that of the collect in the common prayer book on innocents day , that they witnessed onely by dying is vain ; for dying without some other expression doth not witness : nor did they suffer for christ whom they knew not , but because of herods beastly rage . this speech of mr. cragg smels rank of the common prayer book superstition in keeping innocents day , which it seems mr. cragg yet retains ; but is nothing to the proof of his major , nor any thing hitherto alleged . that which he saith last , hath most shew of proof , that baptism came in place of circumcision , the apostle clears it , col. . , . ye are circumcised with circumcision made without hands , how is that ? buried with him in baptism : but it is not true that he saith , ye are circumcised with circumcision made without hands , in that ye are buried with him in baptism : these are predicated of the same persons , and so were conjoyned , but yet not so as to express how that the former was done by the latter , no more than by that which follows , that therein they were raised by the faith of the operation of god who raised christ from the dead : yea it had been false , so expounded : for how could it be true that they were circumcised without hands , in that they were buried in baptism with hands ? nor if this were granted , were it true , that it is cleared by the apostle that baptism comes in the room of circumcision : for there is not a word to that end , yea the scope is to prove that we have all in christ without circumcision , as v. . &c. shew , and that christ came in the place of circumcision , and the rest of the jewish ceremonies , as v. . is expressed . and therefore the apostle asserts the contrary , that no rite but christ came in the room of circumcision . if any ask why is v. . added , i have answered formerly , and the answer is not gainsaid by m. marshall , that it is to shew how persons come to be in christ , and so to be compleat in him , which he usually ascribeth to faith and baptism , gal. . , . rom. . , , . and they are put together , col. . . so that if baptism be conceived thence to succeed circumcision , faith also is said to succeed it : which is more agreeable to the expressions , gal. . , . i add the circumcision mentioned col. . . is either circumcision made without hands , or christs personal circumcision , therefore if the placing of baptism after v. . prove its succession to circumcision , it proves onely its succession to that made without hands , which was not the ceremony commanded , gen. . or to christs circumcision , not to the common circumcision of others . yet were a succession granted , this proves not , it must be in baptism as in circumcision , without a like command , as i prove antipaed : part. . sect. , . no more than because the ministers of the gospel succeed the priests of the law , doth it follow , the ministers children must be ministers , anointed , &c. as it was in the law . so that mr. craggs irresistible argument is as easily blown away as a feather . and i hardly imagine any anabaptist so called to be so weak but that he is able to answer it , by telling mr. cragg that his first proposition is false , unless there were the like command to baptize infants as there was to circumcise them . if the third argument arise thence , it hath its answer thence , that it is frivolous talk in mr. cragg to speak as if denying infants baptism were putting out of the covenant , disfranchizing , and circumcising , supposed being in covenant , was a seal of the covenant of grace . his proof that the gospel puts not infants out of the covenant is true of the elect infants , and the covenant of grace expressed in the gospel . and yet his proofs are silly . new born babes desire milk , little childeren are humble , and are proposed herein as paterns to us , therefore they are in covenant ; whereas this is as true of infidels children as of christians , and therefore proves the one in covenant as well the other , and both these acts of little childeren are onely natural , not virtuous , and so give not evidence of their being in covenant ; nor doth the gospel give them large commendations beyond them of riper years , making them the rule of our perfection : for there is neither commendation of them , pet. . . nor matth. . . nor making them the rule of our perfection , any more than sheep and doves , matth. . . but onely those virtuous qualities , which are resembled by their natural qualities are propounded to us as our rule . his testimony out of bellarmine intimates that bellarmine said , there is no impediment to infants baptism , because the case is clear , as if bellarmine would not have said it , had the case not been clear , whereas it is more likely to be false than true , because bellarmine a jesuit saith it ; yea it is manifestly false ; for the institution being onely to baptize disciples , prohibits baptizing of infants , which are not such , but for want of being disciples uncapable of baptism . but mr. cragg in his fourth argument will prove infant-baptism commanded , matth. . . because nations are commanded to be baptized . to this i answered before in the dispute , and my answer is , and was , nations are not commanded to be baptized without any other circumscription , but disciples of the nations , mr. cragg confessed , pag. . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is , ye shall make disciples , and then baptizing is of disciples . his speech , infants are not uncapable of baptism , because they have not faith and repentance , because christ was baptized without repentance , is frivolous , for there is not the same end of christs baptism and ours , and therefore though repentance were not required of him , yet it is of us , and the want of it makes infants uncapable of baptism . it is false , that god requires no more of persons in covenant , and born of believing parents , to their baptism , but a meer objective power or receptability , as he cals it , as was in the world at its creation , or in the regeneration , which he new makes us . and it is meerly false , that upon any such account as he speaks of , many whole families were baptized , or that any infants were included . the very texts which speak of the baptizing of the housholds either there or elsewhere speak of their fearing god , acts . . that all the houseshould be saved by peters words , acts . . had repentance and the like gift with the apostles , v. , . had the word spoken to them , acts . . believed , v. , acts . . addicted themselves to the ministery of the saints , cor. , . which shew no infants were meant under the houshold , for they did none of these things . mr. cragg goes on argument . they that are capable of the kingdom and the blessing which is the greater , are capable of baptism which is the lesser : but infants are capable of the kingdom and the blessing which is the greater : therefore they are capable of baptism which is the lesser . to which i answer , the major is false : if it were true , it would follow infants are capable of the kingdom and the blessing , which is the greater , therefore they are capable of the lords supper , ordination to the ministery , church-discipline , which are the less . though into the kingdom of heaven infants be admitted by god who knows who are his without any visible expression , yet into the visible church persons are not admitted without visible testimony of their faith , of which sort were all added to the church acts . . not one of those texts mark . . to . mark . , , . mat. . , , . matth. . , , . luke . . luke . , . severall , nor all joyntly prove , infants visible church-members . the kingdom of god , mark . . is not the visible church , for into it such as are not humble , as little children may enter , which our saviour denies , v. . but the same with the kingdom , v. , , . into which it is so hard and impossible for a rich man or one that trusts in riches to enter , which is called v. , eternal life . it is false , that christ saith , the angels of little ones in age see the face of his father which is in heaven ; but of little ones in spirit , who are converted and believe in christ , matth , . , , . for whose sake they are sent , heb. . . they are but paedebaptists dreams , that the three evangelists recorded christs blessing little ones to check antipaedobaptists , or to declare that which mr. cragg cals a precious truth , though it be a very ly , and may be gathered to be so even from the story . for sure if infants had been to be baptized , christ would have then appointed them to be baptized , and blamed his apostles for not doing it . and therefore mr. craggs questions are answered by questions . . doth christ take children in his arms . and would be have all put out of his visible church ? answ. doth christ no more but take them up in his arms , lay his hands on them , and bless them ? and shall we presume to do more without any warrant of his , even to admit them into his visible church by baptism ? . would he have us receive them in his name , and yet not receive them into his visible church , & c ? answ : where doth christ ever bid us receive little children in age ? where did he ever send them , that they might be received in his name ? must we make christs words to import that which we would in another censure as a spice of madnesse , when he hath told us plainly they are his apostles , and other preachers he hath sent whom we are to receive in his name mark . . luke . . though they are as mean and contemptible as a little child ? how should children be received but by providing nurses ? would christ have us provide nurses for little children ? our lord christ expresseth a cup of cold water to drink , as some part of the reception in his name mark . . is this a thing fit to entertain an infant with ? this is enough to answer mr. craggs frivolous questions . and in answer to the words of mr. baxter , who is the godly and reverend divine he means , i say for my part , seeing the will of christ is that i must walk by , and his word that i must be judged by , and he hath given so full a discovery of his will in this point , i will boldly adventure to follow his rule to baptize disciples professing faith , and had rather answer him upon his own incouragement for not admitting by baptism those he never appointed to be baptized , than to adventure upon the doing like uzzah upon mine own head that which doth prophane the ordinance of baptism , and corrupt the church of christ . mr. craggs sixt argument is ; infants are disciples ; therefore they may be baptized . the antecedent he would prove from acts . . in that it was circumcision which was the yoke , which he proves from ver. . but he confesseth it was not circumcision only , but the attendants , and that it is no shift , but a cleer truth , that it is not circumcision as acted on infants , but as taught , imposed on the consciences of believing gentiles , with the rest of moses his law , as necessary to salvation by some teachers ( which cannot be said of infants ) is so manifest from the text , that i dare boldly say , they that assert that by disciples acts . . are meant , do but wrangle against cleer light , and spit against the sun . that the text isai. . . is not meant of infants of believing parents , as such , but of such as having heard and learned of the father come to christ , is plain from those words of our saviour john . . alleged here by mr. cragg himself , as expounding the prophet . the seventh argument is , all that have faith may be baptized ; but some infants have faith ; therefore some infants may be baptized . but . the major is not true of faith onely in seed , or act secret , and not made known . . mr. cragg alters the conclusion , which should have been that all infants of believers may be baptized ; but then he durst not avouch the minor , that they all have saith , at least in semine the contrary being manifest from scripture and experience , he proves his minor . . from matth. . where he saith , christ expresly calls them believers . but christ calls not little children in age believers , ver. . it had been ridiculous to threaten so heavy a doom to the offending of little children in age , who are offended with none so much as nurses for dressing , or chiding them when they cry : but the apostles and other christian disciples are there meant . . they are said to receive the kingdome of god mark . that is , the grace of god , remission of sins , and life eternal ; now the kingdome is not received , but by faith in christ . but onely elect infants dying do receive the kingdom , either by faith in the seed , not in the act , or by faith in the act secret only , and yet are not to be baptized till they make profession , not are all or any children of believers , as theirs , elect . . saith mr. cragg , they please god , therefore christ blesseth them ; but without faith it is impossible to please god . answ. the like argument is urged by the remonstrants at the synod at dort , it is impossible to please god without faith , therefore election which supposeth pleasing of god presupposeth faith ; the answer is , that heb. . . the pleasing of god is meant of the works , as enoch pleased god walking with him , and so infants please not god , and therefore may be without faith , not of the persons , in which sense infants may please god , that is be beloved with a love of benevolence , though not of delight , without faith . . faith must be allowed them , or not salvation , for faith purifyeth the heart acts . . and no unclean thing shall enter into heaven . answ. faith in the seed is sufficient to make them clean , which is not denyed may be in infants , though neither isai. . . sayes any such thing , and austins words express nothing but his own conceit according to the language of his time , but faith in seed or act unknown doth not intitle to baptism . the eighth argument was answered before by denying the major and minor , and his calling those that expound cor. . . of legitimation gross anabaptists doth but involve melancthon , camerarius , musculus , &c. in the same censure , and that it is no bastard , as dr. featley called it , but a genuine exposition is demonstrated at large in my anti-paedobaptism first part , and t is granted , that pagans children are holy in the apostles sense if lawfully begotten ; for the sanctifiedness of the yoke-fellow , and holiness of the children is not ascribed to the faith of the one parent , but to the conjugal relation between them . rom. . . the first fruits and root , are abraham , not every believer , the lump and branches are abrahams children by election and faith , not every believers , nor all abrahams natural children : and the holiness is meant of saving holiness , not meer outward visible holiness . the breaking off and grassing in rom. . . are meant of the invisible church , in which sense parents and children are not broken off or graffed in together . see my anti. paedobap . first part . nineth argument tells us of dangerous absurdities if infants should be out of covenant under the gospel . but this is not all one as to be baptized ; we may grant them to be in the covenant of grace , and yet not to be baptized , and to be baptized , and yet not in the covenant of grace . but let us view the absurdities . first , infants ( saith he ) would be losers by christs comming , and in a worse condition than the jewish infants were , they with the parents were admitted to the seal of the covenant , which was circumcision , and not parents with children to baptism . answ. . i rather think that by being not admitted to circumcision the condition of parents and children is the better by christs comming , sith as mr. cragg teacheth here page . circumcision is the yoke acts . . of which the apostle saith , neither we nor our fathers were able to bear it , and is so farr from being the seal of the covenant of grace , that ( they are mr. craggs own words ) circumcision was the seal or ordinance by which the jews were bound to observe the doctrine and the law , meaning of moses . . but were it imagined a pure evangelical privilege , yet sure it is not such a privilege , but parents and children did well without it , afore abrahams time , and all the females from abrahams daies till christs . i suppose what ever privilege it were , it was abundantly recompensed by christs comming without infant-baptism , except a meer empty title of visible church-membership , which yet will not stand them so much in stead , as to admit them to the lords supper , be such an inestimable treasure as is not recompensed with the glory of the gospel now exhibited to spiritual persons , in spiritual benefits by the spirit , instead of the carnall promises , ordinances , and church-state of the law . the second is answered already , though infants be not baptized , grace is larger under the gospel being extended to believers in all nations , then under the law to the israelites and some few proselytes . the third is a speech that hath neither truth , nor sobriety of expression , nor proof , it is but a bugbear to affright the ignorant people to make use of such as he is , and to make odious them that will not baptize infants , as counting them as vile as the children of turks , tartars , or canniballs , even as they make them odious that will not burie their dead , as not affording them christian burial ( though they are buried as christ was without a priest , ) but burying as dogs . but we know how to put a difference between believers and pagans children in regard of the love god bears to us , some promises he hath made to us concerning them , the hopefullnesse of them by reason of prayers , education , example , society , confirmed by many experiences that are comfortable , all which things we should be contented with and not complain for want of an imaginary privilege , which is indeed no privilege , but a dammage to our children . i for my part look upon the children of believers unsprinkled , as precious , and rather more hopeful than those that are . and i think mr. cragg , as hard a conceit as he hath of the anabaptists and their children , yet would he be ashamed to say as he doth here of them , that they are as vile as the children of turks , tartars , or cannibals . but that which he closeth with , sheweth he was minded to affright the poor ignorant people , as the popish priests did of old . fourthly ( saith he ) they would be without god , without christ , without hope in the world ; not the children of god , but would all be damned , for out of covenant and visible church ( ordinarily ) there is no salvation . answ. by covenant , he means doubtless no other than the outward covenant , which is not shewed to be any other than baptism , and indeed we do no otherwise put them out of the covenant than by denying them baptism ; which being presupposed , mr. craggs speech must needs imply , that denying baptism inferrs all this . which cannot be true without conceiving , that all that are unbaptized are without god , without christ , without hope in the world , not the children of god , but of the devil , will be all damned , have no salvation . which is not only more than what the epistler makes hainous in me , all that would be saved must be baptized after profession ( though it were understood by me onely of necessity of precept , which mr. cragg himself asserts to be imported mark . . ) but worse than austin sayes , whom mr. cragg himself called the hard father of infants , and saies went too far , worse than the papists themselves speak of the dying unbaptized . which shews that he preached this sermon with a bitter and furious spirit . his closing speech [ out of covenant and visible church ( ordinarily ) there is no salvation . ] if understood of the covenant of saving according to election , i grant , that neither ordinarily , nor extraordinarily is there salvation : if of the outward covenant ( as they call it ) that is , the outward administration of seals , it is certain there may be salvation , unless profane contempt or willfull neglect against conscience do hinder salvation . the speech , out of the church is no salvation , hath been interpreted by protestants of the invisible church . a person of years that believes , though he be joined to no particular visible church , if there be not prophane contempt , or wilful neglect against conscience , may be saved . but they that are only negatively or privatively out of the church visible , meerly for want of age to understand the faith , and ability to make profession , may ordinarily , if by it be meant frequently , constantly be saved , though they be not ordinarily saved as [ ordinarily ] notes ordinary means , preaching the word and profession of faith . his last argument is , that which hath continued since the apostles times with blessed success , must needs be lawful ; but infant-baptism hath continued with blessed success since the apostles times ; ergo . the minor is denyed . the blessed success he proves not . in my exercitation i shew many errours and corruptions which have come from it , not by accident in respect of some persons that imbraced it only , but even from the tendency of the practice it self . i may ruly say that paedobaptism hath been as cursed a root of corrupting the churches , and losing the gifts of the spirit conferred at first commonly at baptism by laying on of hands , as i think ( except some few ) any other corruption in the rites of christian religion . but mr. cragg thinks to draw it down from the apostles daies . he begins with words of dionysius areopagita , holy men have received a tradition of the fathers , which very words shew it was not dionysius areopagita mentioned acts . he would doubtless have said , i have received it from blessed paul , not have told what other holy men have received from the fathers , whom mr. cragg vainly conceives to be meant of the apostles . but the books that go under his name have been so often by so many learned men , papists and protestants proved to be meer counterfeits , that either it is much ignorance , or much impudence that this is produced as his . salmasius sundry times speaketh of them as certain , that the author of them was not till the fifth age . the apostolical constitutions appear by many observations of scultetus , and others , not to have been written by clement , but of much later time . irenaeus his words make nothing for mr. cragg , as he cites them , nor as they stand in his own works . origens speeches are in the latin books translated by ruffinus , into which many things were foisted by him , and these its probable were so as being so expresse against the pelagians , nor do i find he was ever alleged by austin , who gathered the most ancient testimonies he could for original sin and infant-baptism . therefore saith vossius in his theses of infant-baptism , we less care for origen , because they are not in greek . cyprians testimony is granted to be in the third century , and ambroses and austins , and the milevitan councils and innumerable more , but all upon the popish errours of giving grace , and the necessity to save a child from damnation . gregory nazianzen and tertullian before him disswade from it , except in case of danger of death in appearance near : out of which case the ancients did not baptize infants , and in that case the communion was given them : but otherwise they baptized not infants , no not of believing parents , till they came to years , and then they were first catechized in lent , and then solemnly baptized at easter and whitsuntide , as may be gathered even from the common prayer book in the rubrick before baptism . it is most false that all ages , all churches agree in infant-baptism . some churches never had it , some churches five hundred years ago of the most godly and learned that then were , did oppose it , and practice the baptism of believers only . if mr. fox , and others did account anabaptists hereticks , it was for other tenents than this . mr. baxter himself saith no sober divine did ever reckon the anabaptists as hereticks meerly for the errour of rebaptizing , plain scripture proof , &c. part . chap. . yet mr. cragg bespatters anti-paedobaptism thus , it robs the scripture of its truth , infants of their right , parents of their comforts , the church of its members , christ of his merits , god of his glory . sure he hath learned the art of him in the comaedian to calumniate boldly , imagining somewhat will be believed , though there be not a word true . but there is more of this venome behind ; that it is the mother of many other errours ; hence sprung the ranters , socinians , antitrinitarians , shakers , levellers , they that are above ordinances , antiscripturians . will any believe that from the tenet which doth so stifly maintain an ordinance should spring the errour of being above ordinances ? or that the errour of antiscripturians should spring from that tenet which doth so strictly insist on the scripture ? let mr. cragg shew any the least connexion between antipaedobaptism and the errours he names , and he saith something , else if only the persons , and not the tenet be guilty of these errours he doth but calumniate . he might with like reason say , the christian religion is the mother of many other errours ; hence sprung ebionites , cerinthians , nicolaitans , gnosticks , &c. such kind of criminations are most stinking and base slanders ; unworthy a sober minded man , much more a divine in a pulpit , speaking to many people who examine not but take all for true , which such rabbins talk with confidence . the like may i say of the judgements of god . those in germany were by war , the events that have happened in our daies should teach us to be sparing in our judging . mr. cottons speech was according to his prejudice . solomon eccles. . , . christ luke . , , , , . teach us more sobriety than so easily to pronounce of gods judgements . if we should judge of men and tenents by outward judgements , job had been condemned justly . one man had his house burned that did not sprinkle his child , thousands have had their houses burned who did , and perhaps upon occasion of that abuse , by means of provision for the feast . may not we as well say . god thereby judged against infant-sprinkling ? thousands have prospered after their refusing to baptize infants , thousands have fain into calamities after they have baptized them . may not we this way as well decide for antipaedobaptists as against them ? divines that maintain the scriptures to be their rule should not thus judge of what is true or false by gods dealing with mens persons , which is often upon secret reason , not discemable by us , but by his word which is our rule , and wherein he hath revealed his mind . the rest of mr. craggs speech is as vain . doth this benefit come to parents , and children by infant baptism , that god is not ashamed to be called their god , and the god of their seed after them , heb. . . what a ridiculous conceit is this ? the text saith , that through the faith of the persons it is , that god is not ashamed to be called their god , not their god , and the god of their seed , much less a word of infant-baptism , as if such a benefit came by it . all the benefit he talks of that comes to infants is either a meer empty title , or else it comes to infants as well without baptism as with it . the devils dealing if it be , as mr. cragg saith , makes it appear the faith is good into which the pretended baptism is , but not that the baptism is right . enough of this frothy , unconcocted sermon , calculated for the ignorant and superstitious common people , and the profane loose gentry , who mind not godliness in earnest , and for the blind teachers of those parts , who know not the gospel , but mind their own profits more than the understanding of the truth . from whom the lord deliver the dark parts of this land , and provide teachers for the people after his own heart , that it be not as now it is in too many parts , the blind lead the blind , and both fall into the ditch . finis . anthropolatria; or the sinne of glorying in men, especially in eminent ministers of the gospel. wherein is set forth the nature and the causes of this sinne, as also the many pernicious effects which at all times this sinne hath produced, and with which the church of christ is still infected. with some serious disswasives from this sinne, and directions to prevent the infection thereof. a discourse usefull, and in these times very seasonable. / by john tombes, b.d. and preacher of gods word at the temple. tombes, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) anthropolatria; or the sinne of glorying in men, especially in eminent ministers of the gospel. wherein is set forth the nature and the causes of this sinne, as also the many pernicious effects which at all times this sinne hath produced, and with which the church of christ is still infected. with some serious disswasives from this sinne, and directions to prevent the infection thereof. a discourse usefull, and in these times very seasonable. / by john tombes, b.d. and preacher of gods word at the temple. tombes, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed by g. miller for john bellamy at the signe of the three golden-lions in cornehill hear the royall-exchange, london, : . annotation on thomason copy: "may th". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng deadly sins -- early works to . pride and vanity -- early works to . great britain -- church history -- th century -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no anthropolatria; or the sinne of glorying in men,: especially in eminent ministers of the gospel. wherein is set forth the nature and the ca tombes, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion anthropolatria ; or , the sinne of glorying in men , especially in eminent ministers of the gospel . wherein is set forth the nature and causes of this sinne , as also the many pernicious effects which at all times this sinne hath produced , and with which the church of christ is still infected . with some serious disswasives from this sinne , and directions to prevent the infection thereof . a discourse usefull , and in these times very seasonable . by john tombes , b. d. and preacher of gods word at the temple . london , printed by g. miller for john bellamy at the signe of the three golden-lions in cornehill near the royall-exchange , . mr gataker in his answer to mr walkers vindication , pag. . i love not siding in gods church , among christs ministers especially , i love not , i am for this man , and i am for that man : i am for this side , and i am for that side . the apostle himselfe liked it not , cor. . . rom. . . i love not holding the faith of christ with respect of persons . another apostle forbids it , iames . . i love not that any be tied to follow any one man , or any number of men whatsoever in all things . the apostles themselves required it not in matter of fact , cor. . . nor may any now living in matters of faith . hence proceeded schismes , cor. . . and . , . and factions , and uncharitabble censures , many times of those as unsound , that are it may be , more sincere , have at least as good a share in christ , as those that so censure them . and surely if the words heresie and heretick were rightly understood , or if they be so taken ( as i suppose them to be constantly used in scriptute ; nor doe i thinke that the contrary can be easily evinced ) the one for faction , acts . . and . . and . , . and . . and . . cor. . , . gal. . . the other for a factious person , tit. . . none i feare will be found more truly guilty of heresie , or better to deserve the title of heretick , then those , who ( therein concurring with the papists , whom yet they professe most to abhorre ) are so prone to contemne all as hereticks , and tainted with heresie in their sence , that is , as men cut off from christ , and having no interest in him , who doe not in all matters of practise comply , or in all points of doctrine concurre with themselves . or their side , lord , let me never be : let my soule never enter into their secret . neither is it , nor shall ever be my desire , either so to pin my faith upon the sleeve of any part or party , or to engage my judgement to any meere mans or mens opinions ( the pen-men of holy writ only excepted ) as to admit hand over head , whatsoever he or they shall hold and maintaine : nor yet againe to refuse or reject any truth , which by the light that god shall be pleased to send me , i shall be able to descry in the writing of any , though otherwise never be erroneous or unsound . to my worthy friend mr james russel merchant . sir , some years are elapsed , since i tooke notice , and became sensible of that sin which this tract here declaimes against . being driven by men , but led by the marvellous providence of god to this city , i observed my feares did not deceive me ; but as then i did divine , so it is come to passe , that this sin hath filled this city with rents and errours ; whereby the spirit of supplication and walking humbly with our god , the spirit of love , minding the publike , and seeking one anothers good hath left us , and instead hereof an evill spirit of censuring , scoffing , insulting on weaknesses , wrangling , maintaining particular parties , projecting how to promote selfe ends with neglect of the publike , evill jealousies and reports of one another , and which is to be feared , inward rejoycing at one anothers harmes , hath overtaken even a great number of those , who a few yeares agoe seemed to be of another temper . i have now out of a deepe sense of the evils this sin hath brought upon us , resolved to publish this treatise , as a monitory to men , to avoid this idolizing of men , as an evill savour that may infect them , and to purge it out of their spirits as an evill humour that may engender dangerous fevers in their soules , and is likely to make this generation worse and worse ; and as a forerunner to such works as god shall enable me to publish , for clearing of the truth to those that in this time are deceived , by their dependence on their admired teachers : the memorable kindnesses which you have been pleased to exhibit to me in my low estate , and the cordiall affection i perceive you beare to the prosperity of christs kingdome , engage me to present this sermon to you , as for your use , so for some testimony of his gratitude , who desires to approve himselfe yours in the service of christ , john tombes . from my study at the temple this th of may , . the contents . § i. the state of the city of corinth . § ii. the state of the church of corinth . § iii. that glorying in men is a sinne . § iiii. that glorying in men which is here forbidden , is glorying in the teachers of the church . § v. the conceit , that here the apostle useth a figure of fiction of persons . § vi . this conceit is refuted , and it is proved , that glorying in true apostles is here forbidden . § vii . the objection to the contrary , answered . § viii . what glorying in true teachers is here forbidden , declared negatively . § ix . what glorying in true teachers is here forbidden , declared affirmatively . § x. reasons of the prohibition , taken from the nature of this sin . § xi . reasons of the prohibition , taken from the causes of this sin . § xii . reasons of the prohibition , taken from the many pernitious effects that follow upon this sinne . § xiii . application the first , in a discovery of this evill , as still infecting the church of christ . application the second , in a serious disswasive from this sin in these times , with some directions to prevent the infection thereof . anthropolatria ; or , the sinne of glorying in men , especially in eminent ministers of the gospell . cor. . . therefore let no man glory in men , for all things are yours . § i. the state of the city of corinth . for a more perspicuous understanding of this scripture , something is to be premised concerning the city and church of corinth . the city was seated on the necke of land , which parts peloponesus from the rest of greece , very convenient for traffique , by reason of the meeting of two seas there , whence it is tearmed by horace , bimaris corinthus , corinth that was washed by two seas ; the one fit to bring in commodities from italy , cicily , and other countries towards the south and west , the other fit to bring in commodities from asia , macedonia , and other countries towards the east and north . by reason of which conveniencies , and the grecian games exercised neare to it , which drew a great confluence of people thither , and some other causes , that city grew very populous and rich , and this made them ( as usually it doth ) luxurious and proud : whereby they became insolent , and by their haughty speeches provoked the romans to destroy that city under the conduct of l. mummius : but being in augustus caesars time reedified , it recovered quickly its former beauty and wealth . § ii. the state of the church of corinth . to this city in his travailes to preach the gospell of christ , came st paul , acts . . in the dayes of claudius , ver. . and continuing there a great while , much people were added to the lord , and a flourishing church there planted , which being after watered by apollos , so fructified , that as st paul testifies , cor. . . they were in every thing inriched by christ in all utterance , and in all knowledge , so that they came behind in no gift , ver . but as formerly their earthly riches made them wanton , and insolent , so now their spirituall gifts made them vaine and contentious : for instead of a holy imploying and improving their gifts to the honour of the giver , they abused them in vaine ostentation of themselves , and glorying in their teachers , which drew them into schismes and divisions , one saying , i am of paul , another , i am of apollo , another , i am of cephas , another , i am of christ , ver. . whence they were drawne into factions , insomuch that as hierome saith , unusquisque eos quos baptizaverat suos putabat esse , non christi ; each baptizer counted those he baptized his owne , not christs ; and clement ( if we have his genuine epistle ) that they jussed out some that deserved well , and hoysed up others that were light enough , and that numerous church in stead of being a well compacted body , became like a dismembred absyrtus , mangled into many pieces by reason of their schisme . to remedy which evill as tending to the scattering of the church , and blemishing of the christian profession , the apostle bends himselfe in the fore part of this epistle , using sundry arguments to shew the absurdity of it , and in this verse now read unto you , disswades them from that sin , which was the root of their factious divisions , in these words , therefore let no man glory in men , &c. § iii. glorying in men is a sinne . which speech seemes to be a conclusion inferred from the words fore-going , ver. , , . concerning the folly and vanity of mens thoughts , and containes , . a prohibition , let no man glory in men ; . a reason of this prohibition , for all things are yours ; which is amplified , ver. , . my businesse will be at this time , to handle the prohibition , and the reason so farre only as it referres to the thing here prohibited ; and that the marke at which we shoote may appeare to you , let the fixed point be this ; christians may not glory in men ; if they doe , it s their sin , and that no small one in gods sight . god hath so ordered our calling , saith the apostle , cor. . . that no flesh should glory in his presence ; and therefore ver. . according as it is written , he that glorieth let him glory in the lord ; which seemes to be taken from jer. . , . thus saith the lord , let not the wise man glory in his wisedome , neither let the mighty man glory in his might ; let not the rich man glory in his riches , but let him that glorieth glory in this , that he understandeth and knoweth me , that i am the lord , which exercise loving kindnesse , judgement and righteousnesse in the earth , for in these things i delight saith the lord . like unto which is that isa. . . cease ye from man whose breath is in his nostrils : for wherein is he to be accounted of ? but because the apostles words , though generall in forme , as forbidding all glorying in any men , yet are speciall in the accommodation , as forbidding glorying in ministers ; therefore i conceive necessary to enquire , . what glorying in men is here forbidden by the apostle ; . why such glorying is thus forbidden . § iiii. glorying in men here forbidden , is glorying in the teachers of the church . the greeke word translated [ glory ] doth sometimes signifie the inward esteeme , joy , content , complacency and confidence we have in a thing , especially when 't is superabundant , though it be not outwardly expressed , but for the most part , it notes a full joy , confidence , esteeme or acquiescence , expressed by words , or other signes . glorying in men , is either when the persons glorying , and gloried in , are the same , or when they are divers ; the former is , when a man glories in himselfe , and then it is , when a man out of high esteeme of his own excellency or power , expresseth confidence in himselfe , or praise of himselfe , which is commonly the vice of vaine boasting , though it may be sometimes for just cause , as cor. . . but in this place the latter , to wit the glorying in other men is forbidden , as the reason shewes , for they were not to glory in some as peculiarly theirs , because all were theirs . and so to glory in men , is to glory in other men , whom we conceive to have singular excellency , and our selves to have some proper interest in them , or relation to them , and accordingly to boast of them , and the conceived property we have in them . thus men glory in their ancestours , princes , generals , teachers : and the glorying in this last sort of men particularly as teachers or preachers of the gospell , is here forbidden , as the occasion of this precept shewes ; for this precept was given upon occasion of their glorying mentioned , chap. . , and the first instance , ver. . is of eminent teachers of the church , paul , apollos , cephas ; so that the glorying here forbidden , is the having , and expressing of high esteeme and affection towards the teachers of the church . § v. the conceit , that here the apostle useth a figure of fiction of persons . but then we are further to consider , whether the teachers in whom the apostle forbids glorying , were the true teachers or apostles , or the false ; for there is a conceit in many and eminent interpreters , that the corinthian sectaries , did not glory in the names of paul , or apollos , or cephas themselves , but that they gloried in some false apostles , the authors of their schisme , but the apostle in reproving their schisme , useth the names of the true apostles , as it were under the vizard of the true apostles concealing the false : the ground of this conceit , is that speech which st paul useth , cor. . . and these things brethren i have in a figure transferred to my selfe and apollo for your sakes : that ye might learne in us not to thinke of men [ so our translation adds ] above that which is written , that no one of you be puffed up for one against another . which they understand , as if the apostle had said , when i spake of paul and apollos , i used a scheme or figure called fictio personarum , the faining of persons , such as the lawyers use , when they put the names of titius and sempronius , for some other men whose case is propounded . and that the apostle saith , he had transferred to himselfe the arrogance of the false apostles , being unworthy to be named , or that he might not offend them , or that his speech might be lesse grievous to the corinthians : to this end , that ye might learne in us , that is in our taking it upon us , not to thinke of men , that is of the false apostles , above that which is written , and that no one of you be puffed up with pride , for one in the extolling of one against another to his contempt . § vi . this conceit is refuted , and it is proved , that glorying in true apostle is here forbidden . concerning which interpretation , parcus com. in cor. . . speakes thus ; miror verò hoc loco , omnes fere interpretes fictionem statuere , quasi quod in pseudo-apostolos competebat , paulus ad apostolorum personas transferat . that is ; i marvaile that in this place all interpreters almost conceive a fiction , as if the apostle paul had transferred that to the persons of the apostles , which did agree to the false apostles . and indeed that such a fiction should be here made , i conceive to be against plaine and evident reason . for first if this be so , then it is to be conceived that the corinthians did not indeed call themselves by the name of paul , but by the name of some false apostle , in whose place in this epistle st paul hath put his by a fiction . but he that shall reade chap. . ver. , , , , , , . may easily perceive by the relation of this schisme from those of cloe , that the apostle intended to set downe a history of that they did , now in narrations of facts done , no man useth such a fiction . . he useth the name of christ without a fiction , ver. . in the same relation : surely then the names of those apostles too . . to make it yet clearer , he useth arguments to disswade them from these schismes in his name . and to cleare himselfe as no occasion or abettour of them , though his name were used , he alledgeth a thing or accident meerely personall , ver. , , , . . when chap. , ▪ he speakes againe of their schisme , he adds to convince them of the evill in patronizing the schisme by their name , ver. . . who then is paul ? and who is apollo ? but ministers by whom ye believed , even as the lord gave to every man . i have planted , apollo watered ; but god gave the increase . now these things cannot be conceived as tralatitious , for it is said , they were ministers by whom they believed , and as the lord gave to every man , and that he planted , and apollos watered , but god gave the increase . now these things are true of paul himselfe and apollos himselfe , as we reade , acts . not of any false apostles . . to which i adde , that i find nothing of the false apostles , or of disswading from hearkning to them in this epistle , but in the second . § vii . the objection to the contrary answered . as for the objection from cor. . . it is grounded upon an interpretation that is not congruous to the words of the apostle : for . the apostle is supposed to have put his and apollo's name instead of the false apostles , to avoid offence of them , or conceit of their unworthinesse , but the apostle sayes , he had transferred those things to himselfe and apollo's for the corinthians sake , not for the false apostles . . he saith he did it to teach them modesty . now how the apostles taking on him their arrogance might teach them modesty , it is hard to conceive : what modesty is it to transferre anothers crime on himselfe ? but what then are the things transferred on himselfe and apollos , and how did he transferre them ? pareus conceives they were that which he had said , chap. . . that he which planteth is nothing , and he which watereth is nothing ; i adde those things which he had said , chap. . that they were ministers of christ , and stewards of the mysteries of god . these things saith he {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , that is , as they conceive translated by a figure of rhetoricke : but in that sense i find it not used anywhere in the apostle . i find it used ▪ cor. . , , . signifying the counterfeiting of an habit like a stage player , in which sence the noune {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is used , cor. . . and the derivative {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , cor , . . rom. . . is translated from the habit of apparell , to the fashion of manners . and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is used , phil. . . for christs transmutation of our bodies . i conceive that in this place the apostle useth by a catachresis {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} for {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and that he meanes no more but an application or fashioning of those things he had said , without any change or translation from any other to himselfe , that in them they might learne , not to think of teachers above that which is written , to wit , mat. . , . and that no one be puffed in arrogance for one , that is for the extolling of one against another , that is to the despising of another . § viii . what glorying in true teachers is here forbidden , declared negatively . but what then is the glorying in the true teachers here forbidden ? to this i answer , . negatively , . affirmatively . negatively i say , . that it is not the magnifying of the apostles above other ministers , by ascribing to them an eminent , and extraordinary authority in assuring us of the will of god , and in establishing the churches . for as they had doubtlesse singular power in working miracles and in giving the holy ghost , so had they infallible guidance of the spirit of christ in what they taught , according to our saviours promise , joh. . . howbeit when he , the spirit of truth is come , he will guide you into all truth , for he shall not speake of himselfe ; but whatsoever he shall heare , that shall he speake , and he will shew you things to come . . that it is not the giving of that regard to the true teachers , which is due to them as ministers of christ . for the elders that rule well , are to be accounted worthy of double honour , especially they who labour in the word and doctrine , tim. . . . that it is not the proper love to esteeme of , and rejoycing in some as our fathers in christ , as the apostle calls himselfe , cor. . . for which cause 't is likely paul told philemon , that he did owe himselfe unto him , philem. v. . . that it is not the desire of having , or rejoycing that we have men of best gifts : for if it be lawfull to covet earnestly the best gifts , cor. . . it is lawfull to desire those that have the best gifts . § ix . and affirmatively . affirmatively i say , here is forbidden inordinate glorying in men which are teachers , and this is sundry wayes ; . when some teachers are gloried in peculiarly , as if they were the only teachers worth the hearing , none else to be regarded . and that this is the speciall branch of glorying in men here forbidden , is manifest from the apostles reason why the corinthans should not glory in men : because all were theirs , whether paul , or apollos , or cephas . it may seeme that some of them accounted paul the only teacher , for his singular knowledge in the mystery of christ , of which we reade , ephes. . , . some delighted only in apollos , because of his eloquence , of which we reade , acts . . some magnified peter , as non-paril , whether by reason of his fervency and zeale , or his seeming dignity among the apostles , which seemes to be intimated , cor. . . gal. . . now this branch of inordinate glorying in men , the apostle doth studiously forbid , as considering that this was the egge out of which their contentions were hatched , and perhaps foreseeing that in time , out of it would spring prelaticall greatnesse , and antichristian tyranny ; therefore the apostle forbids this , cor. . that they should be puffed up for one against another ▪ so it is usuall for hearers to take an inordinate affection , to have an inordinate esteeme of some preachers , and thereupon to count them theirs , to glory to be their followers , disdaining all others as not to be named with them , though teachers of truth : because they have an high conceit of their learning , wit , eloquence , holinesse or the like quality . . when the so-magnified teachers , are esteemed not as servants to a higher master , but as masters themselves . and that thus it was with those corinthians , it may be gathered in that the apostle doth so diligently admonish them to looke higher then himselfe or apollos , that they might not esteeme them authours of their faith . thus cor. . . he expostulates with them , is christ divided ? was paul crucified for you ? or were ye baptized in the name of paul ? and chap. . , . when i came to you , i came not with excellency of speech or of wisedome , that your faith should not stand in the wisedome of men , but in the power of god : and chap. . , , . who then is paul ? and who is apollos ? but ministers by whom ye believed , even as the lord gave to every man . i have planted , apollos watred , but god gave the increase ; so then , neither is he that planteth any thing , neither he that watereth , but god that gives the increase : and cor. . . that ye might learne in us , not to think above that which is written . now this sin is very incident to many hearers , when they admire some teachers wit , eloquence , zeale , holinesse or the like quality , to ascribe their conversion , edification to them ; to praise them superlatively , to assume their names , forgetting that they are but gods instruments , and christs servants , and that their graces come not from the abilities of the teacher , but the power of christ . wherefore the apostle , cor. . . expostulates thus with these corinthians : for who maketh thee to differ from another ? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive ? now if thou didst receive it , why doest thou glory as if thou hadst not received it ? § x. reasons of the prohibition , taken from the nature of this sinne . now the reasons why this inordinate glorying in men is here forbidden are many , some from the nature of the sin , some from the causes of it , some from the effects . the first i shall take from the text it selfe , because all things are yours ; ye are christs , and christ is gods , and therefore ye behave your selves unworthy of the great bounty of christ unto you , in giving all the ministers of the gospell to be yours for your good , when ye glory in some , and unthankfully despise others . and ye doe unbeseeming your priviledge who are christs , not pauls , when ye account paul the master of your faith , not christ ; magnifie him as the principall , who is but a subservient instrument . it is unthankfullnesse to a bountifull prince , when he bestowes many lordships on his favourite , if he should regard one of them only , as if the rest were nought worth : it is an unthankfull and unworthy part if a prince by his servant convay a lordship , the receiver magnifie the servant and not the master : so it is in this case when christ hath been so liberall , as to give gifts to men in large measure , some apostles , some prophets , some evangelists , some pastors and teachers , ephes. . . for the use of his people , to dote on one , and to ascribe to him that which is due to christ the supreame donour : for hereby the bounty of christ is lessened , and the honour due to him substracted . . there 's injury done both to christ , and to the despised teachers . to our lord christ , in that the glory that belongs to christ alone to be the authour of , and to have the dominion over our faith is ascribed to men : for whereas our lord christ forbad even the apostles , matth. . , , . that they be not called rabbi : for one is your master even christ , and all ye are brethren ; and call no man your father upon the earth , for one is your father which is in heaven : neither be ye called masters ; for one is your master even christ : by this glorying in some teachers they are made rabbies , fathers on earth , and masters . for what is it to make a man a rabbi , a father on earth , a master , but to glory in him as the authour of our faith ; to esteeme him as the only teacher , to depend upon his mouth as if he were another pythagoras , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , that he hath said were enough ? now what is this lesse then to unchaire christ , and to lift up man into his seate , to deprive the shepheard and bishop of our soules , and substitute another in his roome ? it is in effect all one as to thanke the axe for building the house , and to passe by the carpenter . for as moses , so paul , were but faithfull in gods house as servants , but christ as a sonne over his own house , whose house we are , heb. . , . 't is injurious also to the despised teacher , in that he is contemned , whom christ hath honoured to make a teacher of truth , a servant of his : but this we shall further consider when we speake of the reasons from the effects of glorying in men . § xi . from the causes of it . the causes hereof minister also reasons unto us of the prohibition of it . for whence comes it that there is such evill glorying in men , but from a spirituall dotage , or childishnesse in understanding , inordinate affection in the will ? therefore are men gloried in , because they are over esteemed , over loved , either for their supposed eloquence , or learning , or zeale , or spirituall graces , or authority , or power , or benefiting them , or suiting with their fancies , or some such like cause . the admiring mens persons is oft {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , jude . by reason of some advantage or benefit : now all these causes doe import some errour or perversenesse of the soule , which are alwayes evill . yea 't is no small evill to admire men when we should magnifie christ , to delight in the picture instead of the prototype , to glory in the servant in the place of the master ; in zanchius his judgement it is no lesse then idolatry . assuredly it is an earthly affection , it is but wisedome of the flesh , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , not of gods spirit , and therefore enmity against god : adverse to his law , cor. . . in lowlinesse of mind , each man is to esteeme others better then himselfe : yet no man is to think of another , no not of an apostle , above that which is meet , cor. . . in charity we are to seeke , not our own , but every man anothers wealth , to believe all things , to hope all things : yet not to seeke the elevation of one , to the disparagement of another , to be puffed up for one against another , or to conceive of one above that he is to a derogation of christs prerogative . § xii . from the many pernicious effects that follow upon it . but the evill of this sin is most cleerely seen in the pernicious effects that are consequent upon it , which are many : as . it is a direct cause of schismes : so it was among these corinthians ; their glorying in paul , apollos , cephas , made them say , i am of paul , i am of apollos , i am of cephas : it causeth the people to divide themselves one from another , under different teachers , in whom they glory : and it causeth teachers to sever those that affect them , from other teachers whom they affect not so much : for occasio facit furem , advantage to doe evill is a great incitement to attempt it . sundry are the causes of schismes , sometimes the pride , tyranny , heterodoxie of the teachers , and then they are justifiable in the people , the power of pastors not being lordly , but fatherly , pedo non sceptro , not in a compulsory , but a directory way : sometimes the causelesse hatred or contempt of the people towards some pastors ; the vaine esteeme , light affection towards others causeth a schisme ; and then the pastours are free , the people are under the guilt . and it is no small sin , whether from the pastours or peoples priding in guifts that a schisme is made ; whereas the end of gods spirit in bestowing of guifts is , that there might be no schisme in the body , but that the members should have the same care one for another , cor. . . now schismes are contrary to christian unity and love , cause great alteration of heart in one member from another , substraction of mutuall helps , hinderance in the growth of the body , neglect of praying one for another ; yea bitternesse , disdaine , hatred , and the effects of these , declining of society , excommunicating each other , and at last violence , and bloud , and these are bad enough . . the prohibited glorying in men , doth expose the christian profession to obloquy and contempt ▪ for whereas it is the honour of the christian profession , that they have one body , one spirit , one lord , one faith , one baptisme , one god and father of all , ephes. . , . by the glorying in some teachers afore others , the christian society is made like the severall schooles of philosophers , some following plato , some aristotle , some zeno , some epicurus ; their doctrines accounted but as the proper opinions or placita of severall teachers ; not proceeding from one and the same spirit of god , but singularity of conceit ; and zeale for them is conceived to arise , not from a certaine knowledge of heavenly truth , but from strength of fancie , and peculiar humour : which thing is a great stumbling block to those that are without , keeping them back from embracing the truth , and an occasion of laying open the profession of it to derision . . by glorying in men , as there is an over high esteeme of the guifts of some , so there is an undervaluing of the guifts of others : which thing as it is an unworthy abuse of those various guifts christ giveth to his church , so doth it inferre an injurious imputation to the spirit of god by whom they are bestowed . for as it is said , prov. . . who so mocketh the poore , reproacheth his maker who made him such : so it may be said by parity of reason ; he that despiseth those that are of small guifts , reproacheth the spirit of god , as if he were defective in his guifts ; whereas the variety of guifts , and the bestowing of them in different measures , sets forth the fullnesse and freenesse of gods spirit , who worketh all those , dividing to every man severally as he will , cor. . . . by the inordinate glorying in some , and despising of others , the despised persons are often discouraged and disheartned , to the detriment of the church of god , and the grievance of the despised . for the remembrance of contempt , is apt to cause dejectednesse and griefe of heart , which alwayes benums a mans spirit , and enfeebles him , and clogges him in his work : thus the heart is made sad , which should not be made sad ; and the sparke that should be blowne up by incouragements that it may flame forth , is extinquished , and the spirit quenched , contrary to the apostles warning , thes. . . . by glorying in teachers , it falls out that they are puffed up and perverted : much experience hath confirmed this as true , that popular applause hath filled teachers with vaine glory , and made them adulterate the word of god to please their auditors . st paul tells us of the false apostles among the galatians , gal. . . that they did zealously ( in shew ) affect them , but not well : intending to ex●lude him , that they might affect them . it is no strange thing that teachers perceiving the lightnesse of their auditors , and their itching eares doe sometimes {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , handle the word of god deceitfully , instead of ministring {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the sincere milke of the word , as it is called , pet. . . sometimes flattering pleasingly , when they should reprehend sharpely ; sometimes balking the vice , they should freely convince of ; sometimes inventing new formes of teaching , new opinions , sublimate conceites to fit the desires of the people ; making the lesbian rule of their fancies , the measure of their teaching , and this is a grand evill . . this glorying in men , begets an aptnesse to receive their errours , to imitate their actions , which is the seed of heresies and superstitions : for admiration and doting love to a person , easily drawes the admirers to a blind obedience , implicit faith in them , to an inslaving of their judgements , so as jurare in verba magistri . it is observed by an historian , that afore the miscarriage of conrade the emperour , and lewis the french king , in their expedition to the holy land , to which st bernards sermons perswaded , the people were too much transported with an high opinion of him and his directions ; as if that arrow could not misse the marke that came out of st bernards bowe . any thing is easily received from him that we over-much love . affection makes men take downe falsities , as the rowling in sugar doth make the stomacke swallow bitter pills : as it befell fusius , who so admired fimbria's eloquence , that he imitated withall his ill-favoured faces and broad speaking . and god doth often leave the admired teachers to erre , for triall of the people , as vincent . lixin . observes , alleadging the speech of god , deut. . . and the admirers of them to receive errour , according to his just judgement . . adde hereunto , that this gloring in men makes mens endeavours remisse in things necessary , earnest in things vaine ; that time and labour that should be employed in the maine duties of godlinesse , in seeking the advancement of christs kingdome , righteousnesse , peace and joy in the holy ghost , is often bestowed in magnifying those in whom they glory , upholding their party , promoting their opinions : whence it is , that such as are followers of those in whom they glory , constant hearers of them , much in commendation of them , have their sayings and tenents ad unguem , declare much zeale in their way , yet prove but unskilfull in the chiefe doctrines of christian religion , defective in the power of true godlinesse , in the mortifying of corruptions , such as pride , impatience , self-conceitednesse , rashnesse , covetousnesse ; and in the practice of righteousnesse , mercy , meeknesse , diligence in their own businesse and the like ; in the provoking one another to love and good works . . on the contrary , the word of god though soundly and truly delivered , is neglected , being either not heard , or without fruit , when it is spoken by such a teacher as they affect not , but disdained , censured , contemned . the prejudice against one , through comparative extolling of another , causeth the teaching of the sleighted person , though orthodox , holy , learned , to be passed over , to be censured as barren , dry , hungry stuffe , though it be the true word of god , as if no teaching were wholesome meate , but such as is wet with their affected teachers spittle , i meane his phrase , method , action , elocution ; as if fides aestimanda esset ex personis , non personae ex fide , as tertullians phrase is , or as if our faith stood not in the power of god , but in the wisedome of men , as the apostle speakes , cor. , . . by this meanes the rule of christianity is changed ; for whereas ▪ the rule and ground of our faith and obedience is the word of god as gods word , through the addicting themselves to some mens authority , gods truth stands at their devotion for its acceptance : hence they that of old gloried in the pharisees as their rabbins , regarded not gods commands , but as pleased the pharisees , and they that this day glory in the pope , or the church as they call it , regard the scriptures so farre only as the pope or church allow them , and they that depend on their magnified teachers of any other sort , doe regard the word of god , but as it beares their image , or comes from their mint ; and so as it was said of the heathens allowing or disallowing of gods by their senates decree , deus non erit deus , nisi homo velit , god shall not be god , unlesse man will ; it may be said in this case , gods word shall not be gods word , unlesse man will . . lastly , they that glory in men , are either inconstant in their affections , as experience often shewes , they that one while would pluck out their eyes for him whom they magnifie , will at another time revile and hate him : for mens minds are mutable , and the best of men are but men , that is , imperfect , and will be so found , and therefore will not alwayes satisfie , or else if they be still affected , yet they be but mortall , and the sorrow for their losse will be excessive , more then should be for a creature , an arbitrary instrument ; for immoderate affection to a thing while we have it , causeth immoderate sorrow for it when we loose it . § xiii . in a discovery of this evill , as still infesting the church of christ . the first use hereof is to endite those that are guilty of this sin of glorying in men , of a breach of a statute of christ against his crown and dignity , and the peace of his church . in the apostles time you see the corinthians found guilty of it , and condemned as carnall . cor. . . for while one saith , i am of paul , and another i am of apollo , are ye not carnall ? but the sin died not with them . after ages have yeelded us woefull fruits of this evill roote , chiefely in the papacie : the glorying in the first roman bishops who were most of them holy martyrs for christ , begat such an high esteeme of that see , that other bishops and churches began to esteeme too much of their counsels and orders , as if they were a rule for them to follow ; which caused them quickly to take too much on them , and the christian emperours and people to ascribe too much to them ; insomuch that quickly from a parity with other bishops , they got above them to a patriarchate , and from a parity with other patriarkes , to a precedency , and at last mounted up to the throne of universall episcopacy ▪ whence it is that at this day they that subject themselves to the bishop of rom , are become the most deepely guilty of the sin of glorying in men of any that ever were ; for they ascribe an infallibility to him , a power above councels , so that his determination is to be held as certaine , though a generall councell of all the pastours of the christian world should gainesay it , his decrees and decretals are held as or●cles equall to the holy scriptures , a power to interpret scriptures unerringly , to declare points of faith , to canonize saints , to pardon sins , to deliver out of purgatory fire , with many more , whereby he is exalted above all that is called god , or is worshipped , as was foretold , thes. . . nor doe they blush at the name of papists being derived from the pope of rome , but defend it , as bellarmin . de nat. eccl. cap. . and as all papists in common are guilty of this sin , so in speciall the severall sects of schoolemen and friars , franciscans , dominicans , nominals , reals , some glorying in scotus , some in aquinas , some in occham ; and that with so much pertinacie and devotion , that they will not swerve in the least point from their chiefe master ; insomuch , that as i remember bannes the dominican disputing about an article in philosophy , com. in arist. de gen. & corrup . expresseth his dislike of one that dissented from aquinas , saying that he was not a thomist , but an anti-thomist . nor doe protestant divines dissemble , but complaine of this malady among themselves , as being the cause of that miserable rent , which hath been , and is still continued between those pastours and churches which are distinguished by the names of lutherans and calvinists , which although it be disavowed by the chiefest writers of the reformed churches , and by the churches in their publike confessions , yet it is not denied , but that it hath tainted too many in them . zanchius complaines against this evill , calling it {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , a worshipping of men , and relates with indignation the speech of one at geneva , who being asked why he would not sometimes heare viret a worthy preacher there , answered , that if paul should preach at the same time with calvin , he would heare calvin ; and another complaines in his epistle to calvin , of a certaine person that was so affected to luther , that he thought his very shooes should be adored . i would to god such exorbitancies had kept beyond the seas , and that this sin of glorying in men had not crept into this land , into this city . the signes and symptomes of it are too manifest , disparaging some preachers injuriously , extolling others immoderately , disdainefully withdrawing from some without just cause , inordinately running after others without sufficient reason ; swallowing downe the dictates of some without chewing , loathing the wholesome food which others present , without tasting . and have not the fruites been among our selves , evill divisions , janglings , evill censuring , and such like ? scoffing , contempt , hardning of themselves among our adversaries ? brethren , if there be any guilty of this sin here present , let him now know it to be his sin , and that no small one , and let him be humbled for it , and repent of it , that he may obtaine pardon : possibly some godly persons may have fallen into it , not knowing it to be a sin , but sure i am , no one that feares god , will dare to allow himselfe in it being convicted that it is his sin . application . in a serious disswasive from this sin in these times , with some directions to prevent the infections thereof . . wherefore in the second place , give me leave to admonish you , that you take heed of it . it is an evill that usually doeth follow those churches to which god bestowes excellent gifts , and worthy teachers ; and doubtlesse the lord hath inriched this city with this most desireable kind of riches above all places of the earth ; so that this city may be said in this respect , to be situated under the line , and the inhabitants here to be without shadow . great and many lights god hath given to you , and that in many successions a long time , uno avulso non deficit alter , when one is removed , god supplies you with another . but to what end is it ? not that you should magnifie them , but use them to bring you nearer unto god , not to glory in the gift , but to rejoyce in the giver , reverence and make use of them , but reserve to their lord his owne prerogative : may not you justly feare that god will take them away from you , when you give his due to them ? we blame not a father if he remove a servant from his child , when a child doeth inordinately affect him , to the deminution of his respect to the father ; nor can we god , if he subtract a good thing which we abuse : the best way to have good things continued by god , is to use them for god , and to esteeme them for his sake ; but to set our hearts only on him that gave them . besides doth not our glorying in men bring us into bondage to them ? doth it not insensibly draw upon us an adherence to their errours , if god for our triall suffer them to slip into any , or if they have none , to a dangerous and unsound disposition to receive them if they happen . we stand much for our christian liberty , and there is great cause we should , it is a pretious thing dearely bought , and is it not one part of our christian liberty , that we be not the servants of men , cor. . . it concernes us then much , that we labour to get such a firme constitution of soule , that neither through weaknesse of understanding , nor through foolish affection we endanger our selves to hang on men , and so to bring our consciences in bondage to them . we account the yoake of bishops to have been a grievous yoake , and that justly ; if hierome be not mistaken , it was first occasioned by this sin of glorying in men ; and it may be feared least this sin may occasion the keeping it on our necks : for is it not alleadged , take them away , men will follow whom they please , so many schismes will be as preachers ? any of these reasons , much more all of them , should be a sufficient caveat unto you to warne you of this . i might presse this monition further , from the nature , causes and effects of this sin before shewed ; but i will hasten to shut up all with a few directions to prevent it . . endeavour to have ample thoughts of christ , his eminency , his fullnesse ; the more high thy thoughts be of christ , the lower will thy conceits be of men , the larger comprehension thou hast of him , the lesse wilt thou doate on his servants . a courtier when he is by himselfe drawes mens eyes after him , but when he is with the king he is scarcely observed . if thou behold christ as the great prophet of the church , in whom are hid all the treasures of wisedome and knowledge , christ will only be gloried in his servants only respected as his instruments and attendants . remember that he is made to us of god , wisedome , righteousnesse , and sanctification , and redemption ; that as it is written , he that glorieth might glory in the lord , cor. . , . . have a right esteeme of all true pastours and teachers as the ministers of christ , so the apostle requires , cor. . . let a man account of us as ministers of christ , and stewards of the mysteries of god , neither make more of them nor lesse . heare them as messengers from christ , not for their singular abilities , but for their message sake ; respect them not only for their excellent wit and elocution , but for their faithfullnesse : note and retaine not only fine speeches , but every solid truth , that is from god , least while thou taste the dainty sawce , thou neglect the solid nourishment of thy soule ; whoever he be that preacheth christ truly , heare him gladly , and receive him respectfully for his masters sake . . make a fruitfull use of the gifts of every true teacher , get somewhat by all , and then thou wilt not glory in some , and disparage others ; if thou didst profit by them , god should have glory and every minister due esteeme . it is in truth the vanity of the hearers minds , their fullnesse that makes them slight mannah , and cry for quailes , that they cannot affect a good teacher if he be not excellent ; the despising of the teacher , is commonly us'd as a cloake of their owne unteachablenesse and disobedience , get an hungry soule after the word , and then every wholesome truth will be welcome to thee : remember that every gift of the spirit is given to profit withall , and should be received to that end . . lastly , be well grounded in knowledge , and constant in practise of what thou hast learned : have thy senses exercised in the word of righteousnesse , that thou mayest be able to discerne both good and evill , heb. . . and so thou shalt be fitted to profit by every godly preacher , and inslave thy selfe to none , nor glory in man , but in the lord . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , theog . gnom . eò quod legati appellati erane superbius , cicer . orat pro lege manilia . con in tit. epist. . ad corinth . edit. à patric . ●unio . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . chrys. in cor. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . hieron. in cor. . ● . sub nomine apostolorum pseudo-apostolos tangit . chrysest . in cor . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . zanch. tom. . lib. . cap. . thes. . tollat deus ●as idololatrias ex ecclesiâ , nam adorare homine● & eorum placi●a idololatria est . fuller . of the holy war , lib. . ch. . cicero lib. . de oratore . advers. haeres ▪ cap. . applic. he teacheth in his book against k. iames under the name of tortus , and in his apology for it , that all are bound by an implicit oath in baptisme to the pope as christs vicar . epist. ad antverp . praefat. tom. . operum . calvin epist. . usque adeo {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} est ut vel crepidas ejus adorandas putet . com on tit. . rusticus ad academicos in exercitationibus expostulatoriis, apologeticis quatuor the rustick's alarm to the rabbies, or, the country correcting the university and clergy, and ... contesting for the truth ... : in four apologeticall and expostulatory exercitations : wherein is contained, as well a general account to all enquirers, as a general answer to all opposers of the most truly catholike and most truly christ-like chistians [sic] called quakers, and of the true divinity of their doctrine : by way of entire entercourse held in special with four of the clergies chieftanes, viz, john owen ... tho. danson ... john tombes ... rich. baxter ... by samuel fisher ... fisher, samuel, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) rusticus ad academicos in exercitationibus expostulatoriis, apologeticis quatuor the rustick's alarm to the rabbies, or, the country correcting the university and clergy, and ... contesting for the truth ... : in four apologeticall and expostulatory exercitations : wherein is contained, as well a general account to all enquirers, as a general answer to all opposers of the most truly catholike and most truly christ-like chistians [sic] called quakers, and of the true divinity of their doctrine : by way of entire entercourse held in special with four of the clergies chieftanes, viz, john owen ... tho. danson ... john tombes ... rich. baxter ... by samuel fisher ... fisher, samuel, - . owen, john, - . danson, thomas, d. . tombes, john, ?- . baxter, richard, - . [ ], , , , [i.e. ], , p. printed for robert wilson ..., london : . "an additional appendix to the book entituled rusticus ad academicos ..." ( p., th count) has special t.p. and was also issued separately; "christ's light springing" ( p. at end) has english and latin in columns, and was also issued separately. part , page has print missing in the filmed copy. pages - photographed from newberry library copy and inserted at the end. reproduction of original in yale university library. marginal notes. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng society of friends -- apologetic works. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - olivia bottum sampled and proofread - olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion rvsticvs ad academicos in exercitationibus expostulatoriis , apologeticis quatuor . the rustick's alarm to the rabbies : or , the country correcting the vniversity , and clergy , and ( not without good cause ) contesting for the truth , against the nursing-mothers , and their children . in four apologeticall , and expostulatory exercitations . wherein is contained , as well a general account to all enquirers , as a general answer to all opposers of the most truly catholike , and most truly christ-like christians , called qvakers , and of the true divinity of their doctrine . by way of entire entercourse held in special with four of the clergies chieftanes , viz. john owen d d. late dean of christ's church coll. oxon. tho. danson m.a. once fellow of magd. coll. oxon : since one of the seers for the town of sandwich in kent . iohn tombes b.d. once of bewdly , since of lemster . rich. baxter , minister at kederminster . another eminent master in this english-israel : which four fore-men hold forth the sense and senseless faith of the whole fry , and write out the sum of what is , or is to be said by the whole fraternity of fiery fighters against the true light of christ , and its true children . alias , an universal vindication , or general . iustification of the sincere practices , and sound principles of that faithfull people , in such points as the priests oppose them in ( hinted in the epistle , and handled in the book ensuing ) against the collegian calumnies , and clerical cavils of all , who causelesly quarrel with them . by samuel fisher , who sometimes went astray , as a lost sheep among the many shepheards , but is now returned to the great shepheard , and overseer of the soul. i kings . . and elijah mocked them , and said , cry aloud , for he is a god , &c. numb . . , . vex the midianites , and smite them , for they vex you with their wiles , &c. isa. . , . against whom do you sport your selves ? against whom do you make a wide mouth ? &c. ethnici , non credendo , credunt , christiani , credendo , non credunt . error minimus in principio fit major in medio , maximus in fine . london , printed for robert wilson in martins , near aldersgate , to the reader . to premise nothing at all to such a bulk , as seems to promise by its great quantity to have something of weight , worth , or good quality in it , were to erect a spatious city with no gate into it , an extream on the other hand ) well-nigh as absurd , as that of his , who , building the little city mindus , is said to have made it's gates bigger then the city . to praefix a prolix epistle to a large book may prove as cumbersome to a conscientious , as 't is ridiculous to a rationall reader to make many long proaemiums to a short one . as therefore i shall forbear lashing out into any long or loud proclamations of what profit may accrue to an unprejudic'd peruser of the following fabrick ( vino vendibili non opus est haederâ ) so shall i ( yet not for custom , but convenience ) not altogether omit , in way of initiation , or introduction , to premise first , some words more generally to all sorts of readers . dly , more particularly some to all plain country people . dly , . or . words to all proud-spirited priests , and scholastick rabbies . thly , some few to the presen● powers of these poor priest-ridden brittish nations . if● then , as for the book it self in the . parts thereof , which this relates to , know all people that herein ye have the tall academicall sons of anak , to whom the seed of jacob seem but as grashoppers , uncapable to grapple with their greatnesse , taken down , or that great goliah's head cut off with his own sword , by the power of god in the heart and hand of a despised country stripling , who coming from following the ewes great with young , and perceiving him in pride to disdain , and defy gods armies , in the name of the living god went forth to meet him in answer to his arrogant challenge & with a stone & sling in his hand , brought down the uncircumcised philistine to the ground . for herein , by way of plain reply to sundry books of those four men aforesaid , viz. i. i. o's . two english treatises , which treat ( pretendedly ) for , but ( in very deed ) against the scriptures , as to that very authority , and integrity of their hebrew and greek texts , he pretends to plead for ; together with his third tractacle of latine theses pro scripturis , contra fanaticos ; in which not without a legend of as loud lyes of the quakers , as lewd laughings , at the lords spirit and light within , in opposition unto both he as vainly adventures to evince it , that the scripture ( alias the outward letter ) is the true●t light , the only most firm foundation and perfect rule of all saving belief , and holy life , that it is in esse both reali and cognoscibili , yea properly , as to name and thing , no lesse than the very living word of the living god. ii. t. d's . two trifting tractacles , term'd . the quakers folly manifested , &c. . the quakers wisdom not from above , &c. occasioned originally by . or . publick disputes at sandwich , held with him and his adherents , by three of them , viz. r. h. g. w. s. f. iii. i. t 's nine sermons . tru●t into one treatise ( untruly ) term'd , true old light exalted , &c. and not only back't , but thrust out also by r. baxter , in his blind zeal against that same unblinded people . to which said reply is annexed an appendicular postscript , abridging into a closer compasse many of those absurdities , self-contradictions , confusions , riddles and rounds the rabbies run into unawares , in their unwary wrestlings against the quakers . and a positive true testimony , according to the externall letter , to the internal and eternal light , both in latine , wherein it was first written , and also in english , whereunto it is ( for further service ) translated . herein i say is the dimn●s of the divines , and meer humanity of the doctrines of the academicall doctors discovered : also the q●a . with the innocency of their cause cleared against the insolency of the choicest champions that contemn them , and the divinity of their doctrines vindicated from their clamours , in the points hereunder specified , viz. anti-papism ; liberty of conscience ; having the faith of god without respect to the persons of men ; iustification by the righteousness of christ alone ; the scripture , and what it is ? as to name and thing ; the word of god , and what ? as to name and thing ; the light of christ in the conscience , as to its universality , and sufficiency , and bow it , and not the external text , or letter , is the only firm foundation of the churches faith , the only true , touch-stone of all doctrines , the only right rule of all saving beliefe and holy life ; the infallible spirits infallible guidance of all that follow him , as their guide at this very day ; the generall grace and love of god in christ to the whole world , & every individual in it , and how it is great , universall , true and unfained , notwithstanding ( through each perishings-man , own fault ) very few in it are saved ; election and reprobation , how it is of two seeds only , absolutely , and of persons , only conditionally , as born of , and growing up ( respectively ) into the image of those severall seeds ; perfection , as to freedom from sinning in this life ; and such other , for which we are as unjustly , as uncessantly assaulted . about which points , it 's hard to say whether the quakers opponents do more oppose them , or abuse them ( by misreporting them , as holding far otherwise then , they do , in those and other of their tenets ) to the world. for when we declare against persecution , and cruell forcing of all men to uniformity in meer outward formes of religion ( by which men , for fear , conforming to do , and to say they believe what they believe not to be truth , are more made hatefull hypocrites , then faithfull christians ) and for liberty of conscience , as that without which now no government , in either church or state , can ever stand long unshaken ( those powers being ever more feared ( if not abhorred ) then either lov'd , obey'd , or honour'd by the tenderest of their own people who touch , and under penalties impose upon them , in that part ( i.e. the conscience ) which is 〈◊〉 tender , and in which being trod upon all people , when they can help themselves , will turn again , but those iu●t ones , whose way it is , when they are kill'd , to make no resistance , jam. . . then they tell people we are against all good government , and authority , settled ministry and good . orders in the church , and such like . whereas and all good government in states to suppresse unrighteousness we own , and good orders in the church too , denying that only , which they call order , who , meerly under that name and notion of decency and order , have fill'd the nations ( call'd christian ) with a numberless multitude of ceremonies and customes , which are vain , and create nothing but confusion : also they tell people we do but barely insinuate that of non-persecution to be our principle , that we may be let alone till we grow numerous , and get outward power into our own hands , that then we may rise , and cut throats , and by force and cruelty subject all people to our wayes . t. d. ( deducing it , as is seen in the book ensuing thus from a certain quakers drawing of his sword , who had no sword at all about him ) the truth is ( quoth he ) the qua. now declare their intentions to propagate their perswasions by the sword. whereas we live in that light which leads to that love , which abhores all cruelty , and 't is the dark places of the earth , in which themselves dwell , that are full of the habitations of cruelty : and ( could we once be by others as candidly consirved and credited , as t is by us conscientiously and clearely declared ) so far are we from that pernitious principle of persecuting ( for conscience sake , though blinded ) any men called christians in any nations , that ( were it as 〈◊〉 in our hands to effect , as it is in our very hearts to wish the contrary ) nor jew , nor turk , nor pagan , much lesse christian ( so c●●●d ) whether papist , prela●icall , presbyterian , independent , baptist or any other ( behaving themselves , as peaceably & subjectively , as we do , to all civil laws in civil things ) should ever be in the least mole●ted ( more then by words of love , whether smooth or sharp , to win them to the truth , th●● their souls may be saved ) in any meerly spirituall , or religious matter , but in all ecclesiasticalls ( so far as 〈◊〉 consistent with , and not destructive to any other mens ) have in their consciences ( where christ alone is king ) truly , and fully , as much liberty as our selves ; even all people to walk every one in the name of his god , as we in the name , and light of the lord our god , from henceforth , even for ever . and because we say some truths , and teach some doctrines , which ( to their misunderstanding minds only , wherein they wrest everything the wrong , and even the worst way they can , and as they sound it out in words of their own , which are none of ours ) seem only to savour of popery , viz. because we assert the good works of christ in his saints to be necessary to their justification , who cannot be justified by any , of their own ; they not only charge us as joyning with jesuits , and papists , but oft-times also ( as far as they dare in such a thing as they have no proof of ) they down rightly pronounce us to be such . whereas how neere of kin they are in their own , and how none are more contrary then our tenets to the pope , and how well t. d. proves the author of this epistle in probability to be a jesuit ( as he falsly affirms ) is to be seen in sundry pages together of the following work viz. from p. . of the exer. to the end . and because we make mention of christ in us , and the righteousness of the law , as necessary , in order to salvation , to be perform'd and fulfill'd in our own persons ( as paul does rom. . . ) though we mean no other righteousness then the same that is in christ , and is wrought in us by no other power , then that of christ , and that same christ too , of whom the scripture speaks , that to him give all the prophets witness , act. . that in his name , and through faith in his name alone , who ere believeth shall receive remission of sins ; then which christ , and his name , there is no other under heaven given among men , whereby they must besaved ; they 〈◊〉 us both to god & men , as denyers of christ and of his righteousness , & of justification by christ , alone : witness one ackworth of rochester , who was once heard , by the writer hereof , deprecating & declaring against the qua. in these words to god himself , in his publike prayer viz. above all things lord ( quoth he ) deliver this poor city from the qua. they are a peole lord , that deny god , deny c●rift , deny the righteousness of christ , deny justification by christ alone . whereas , as it was at that time by this author prefered ( though not permitted ) to be presently and publikely proved to his face , on behalf of that people , whom he told lyes on to the lord himself , that they own god , own christ , own christs righteousness , and own justification by christ alone : so against all the priests , who in their several parishes misrepresent us , as going about to establish our own righteousness only , & not christs to our justification ( among whom t.d. is in that point the most gross false accuser of us ) as it was ( clearly enough , to men not minded to be blind ) by word of mouth at the disputes at sandwich , and hath been since by george whiteheads printed replyes ' to t. d ' s. printed misrelations of us in that matter ; so is it abundantly proved more at larg in the first exercitation from p. . to the end thereof , that ther 's no people do more fully , or so truly disclaim their own , as dung and filthy rags , and stablish christs righteousnesse alone ( which , as wrought by christ in his saints , t. d. makes no better then dung , loss and filthy rags ) to both the justification , sanctification and salvation of sinful men , from all their sins , then the quakers do , who are by the parish peoples blind leaders most abominably belye● to them , as denyers of it . and because we do not with the misty ministers ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) of the meer letter ( which the apostles were not ministers of , but of the mystery , of the new testament or the spirit , cor. . ) own the bare external text of scripture ( which themselves confesse to be corrupted , vitiated , altered and adulterated in all translations ) to be ( at lea●t in their heb. and greek transcripts of it ) entire in every tittle , letter , vowel , syllable and jota , & the self same without any losse , as it was at the first giving out ; but say it hath suffer'd much losse of more then vowells , single letters , and single lines also ; yea even of whole epistles and prophecies of inspired men , the copies of which are not by the clergy canoniz'd , nor by the bible-sellers bound up in the bulk , and compasse of their modern bibles ; and specially because we own not the said alterable and much altered outward text and letter , or scripture , but the holy truth and inward light and spirit , which the scripture it self testifyes to , which at times that text and letter came from , to be , as to name and thing , and that properly , the word of god , which is living , the only firm , infallible foundation of all saving faith , and invariable right rule of holy life , the most sure , sound balis , stable standard , true touchstone , for the due tryal , determination and discerning of all true doctrines of christ , from mens tradition , and cunningly devised fables ; therefore they cry out against us , as siders with jews , papists , athiests , and all scripture haters , as decrying the due authority of the scri●tures , as such , by whom satan assaults the sacred truth of the word of god , in its authority , purity , integrity and perfection ; and as opposers of the scripture , and the word of god , as to both name and thing ; witnesse j. o's . epi●t dedicatory of his doings again●t the quakers , to all young divinity students , p. . . and elsewhere , as is seen hereafter . whereas how ( though christ , and his living word in the heart , which the scri●ture exalts also , is exalted onely on the throne ) yet the scriptures are owned by us in their due place , and how ( though christs light and spirit alone in the conscience is , according to the scripture , asserted to be the only most perfect rule , foundation , &c. and not the ●etter ( as they darkly divine ) yet the letter is acknowledged by us , full as much as it is by it self , to have been written by men moved of gods spirit , and to be useful , profitable , servicable , &c. to be read and heeded , and how all-j . o's . lying calumnies against the quakers , as concerning their carriage to the scriptures , and the word of god , and the foundation and rule , &c. are clearly wiped away and cashiered ( as well as t. d's foul & false aspersions of them in his narratives , as to matters of fact , are in the st . part of my st . exer from p. . to p. . ) is to be read at large throwout the d. and d. exercitations , which consist well nigh wholly in vindication of the truth , against their cloudy conceits about the scriptures . and moreover because we ( as the spirit also in the scripture bids us , jam. . . &c. ) have not the faith of god with respect of persons , as they are high in this world in the church where christ is the one master , and all the rest are brethren ; therefore they misrender us , as proud , obstinate , uncivil , churlish , discourteous , disrespecting , contemning all mens persons . whereas we truly honour all men in the lord , and what we do in denying those vain complemental customs of the nations , as vailing the bonnet , or putting off the hat , which is part of the outward habit , and bowing & cringing to the ground , when we come before men , and in our keeping to that plain , yet not true , antient and proper english language of thee and thou ( which is used to god himself ) to each single person , great or small , when we haue to do with them ( who have no law of man neither whereupon to imprison and punish any for doing herein as we do ) we do it ( god is witness , and will once iudg between us and them ) not in a spirit of pride , arrogance , disrespect , disdain , or contempt towards any man , but in conscience to the lord , that we may stand clear before him , who forbids us to bow to the likene●●e of any thing in heaven , earth , or under the earth ; and in humility onely , and that fear of the lord , whereby we are bound to depart from all conformity to all such fond foolish fashioning of our selves according to our former lusts in our ignorance , and to this world , which we are chosen out of : a more clear discovery of the unsuitablenesse of which ceremonious services of men to the saints of god , is made ( as in the scripture it self ) so in the st . of the ensuing exercitations , from page . to page . . and because christs headship , kingship and supremacy alone we ( together with the true church , which is in god the father , and in christ iesus the light ) can own in the court of conscience , and in matters purely spiritual , and of meer religious and soul concernment , and not any meer mans ( much lesse the popes or any priests in such sacred secrets ) therefore are we mistaken , and misranked among such as are utter enemies to the present kings supremacy in these dominions . whereas we do , according to what the spirit requires of us , in all civil causes and cases between man and man , submit our selves to every ordinance of man himself ( i say in such cases ) even for the lords sake , whether unto the king , as supream , or to such as are sent of him to be a terrour to evil doers , and a praise to them that do well . and if those , who have the sword in hand , shall turn it against us for well doing , and so act against the good will of god , or impose , by gods permission , upon us contrary to our conscience , even there , where we cannot obey actively , we are willing to bear patiently , without violent resistance , what god will leave us to suffer from the hands of such , as should protect us , not reviling , nor threatning , nor cursing , but committing our case in quietness to him that judgeth righteously , and our souls to him in well doing : and that passive deportment must be and is judged by all to be aequivolent to that active obedience , which others yeild , for fear , to what lawes soever are made among men . and because we are no strikers , or fighters , as some men ( called christs minister's , alias servants ) are , though no such should be , tim. . . tit. . with carnal weapons , the weapons of our war-fare , being not carnall , but spirituall , nor such as theirs , among whom are found warrs and fightings , which come from the lusts that war in their members , iam. . . and cannot with good conscience to god ( as to military matters ) appear in arms again●t any ; therefore are we prejudged , as not submitting to , nor owning magistracy , as we say we do . whereas we do truly own , and are subject thereunto : witnesse the tenour of a paper given out from among us , under many hands , some while since in that particular , a true copy whereof is here printed in the margent . * and because we cannot swear at all , but forbear it in obedience to christ's and his apostles words , who ( intimating math. . a permission under the law to swear ( so be men did not forswear , but perform to the lord their ( then lawful ) oaths , for to swear by any but god , or to swear by god in ordinary communications was as unlawful then as now ) * sayes unto us , swear not at all ( i.e. in such cases wherein men might swear in old time , who then might not in common communication ) and above all things swear not , no not by any oath , but let your communication , i. e the whole of it ( before rulers as well as others ) be yea , yea , nay , nay , least ye fall into condemnation , for whatsoever is more than that commeth of evil , mat. . , , , . iam. . . therefore are we , in some places by well-nigh scores at once put in prison , as persons suspitious of treachery and unfaithfulness to the present powers . whereas , howbeit we decline all oaths for the reasons aforesaid ; yet , as it hath been own'd by the king himself as satisfactory to him , as if we did swear , if we can say we are , or promise to be innocent , as towards him ; so we both do , and can declare our present , and promise future integrity to him , and the present government ( reserving our consciences to the lord alone in spiritualls ) in all cases of civil concernment ; and as our promise binds us , more than their oaths do them , who●make as little conscience to keep the oaths they take , as they do to take whatever is imposed , and for fear , swear themselves to and fro into the favour of every form of government , as it stands its time upon the stage : so our practice will preach out our performance of what we promi●e , and that performance prove our words , once passed , to be of as much worth and weight to us before the lord , as their swearings by his name are , who are found utterly out of his nature . and because we talk of an universal redemption by christ's coming intentionally to save all men , though ( through their own default ) all are not , but few only actually saved ; they pittyfu●●y propound us as denying gods eternall , unchangeable decree , and his praedestination , election , reprobation , and such like . whereas how the universality of his grace appearing , and bringing salvation truly and intentionally to all , but that most put it from themselves , as the iews did , act. . is no way inconsistent with , but rather stablishing gods everlasting , immutable councell concerning men , as to salvation and condemnation , it 's most clearly demonstrated in the fourth exercitation from p. . to p. . and because we call all men to look to the light within their own consciences , and to take heed to that , as ever they intend to enter into life , assuring them , that by the leadings of that light , if they will , they may come to god , and work out their salvation , and escape the condemnation that is to come : they make people believe , as if we held that all men in the fall had of themselves a free will , and a power of their own ( without god ) to save themselves , and without any speciall , spirituall or supernaturall grace or gift of god , even by their own naturall light , which flowes from the principles of meer nature , to help , deliver , and redeem themselves , and as if we did destroy all that free grace , great goodness , and rich mercy of god , of whose mercy and grace only it is , and not of themselves , that they can be saved . whereas we ascribe all the glory of our own , and every mans salvation to god alone and his meer mercy and free , grace , which is , and alone is sufficient thereunto , and not to any man , nor any thing at all in man , that is of man , and not rather the free gift of god to him , saying that 't is not in man , without the gift and grace of god , either to guide , or to bring himselfe to salvation , nor in him that wills , nor in him that runs , but in god only , that shewes the mercy : and that light of his in every mans conscience , even in the heathens , which these men , in the cloudiness of their own consciences , which come not to the light that 's in themselves , call naturall , we say is that speciall gift of gods own grace , every degree of which is sufficient to help , heal and save him , that takes good heed to it , and to lead him forth that follows it ( as it increases on him that does so ) to the light of life : yea 't is a measure of that spirit of his , a manifestation of which is given to every man to profit withall ; of that spirit that strives with all men ( but that most resist it in their stiff necks , and uncircumcised hearts ) that convinces the whole world of sin , righteousness and judgment , though all are not thereupon converted by it , same measure ( at least one talent ) of which is given to the most unprofitable servant , till , ●for not trading therewith , it be taken from him ; 't is somthing of that goodness of god , which ( though men will not know it , and few are led by or follow it , while it drawes them , yet does lead them , and though they refuse to return , and so fare the worse for it , does its own part , so far as to draw them to repentance : yea 't is , though in men , yet of god , and no less then his own law in their own hearts , of which law the letter sayes ( though men , till spiritualized by it , are carnall , and sold under sin , yet ) is spiritual , holy , just and good , whereby every man is a law to himself before god , who wit judge him , and either accuse , or excuse , acquit , absolve , clear , justify , or condemn him , in the day when he judges the secrets of men by christ out of the book of their own consciences ( once to be opened , in which thereby both jus and factum , right and fact is manife●t ) according to the gospel , that 's preached in it , and by it in every creature under heaven , as well as to somely mans ministry , & to all by some outward ministry or other also , and is not any meer naturall faculty ( as our naturalists call it ) that is as naturall to men , as his mind it self is ( as j.o. mindlessely asserts it to be , ) for then it must be de es●e homini , so essentiall to a man , that he neither is , nor can be truly call'd a man without it ; whereas ( though man in the fall is in indeed so short of the man made at first after gods image , or of man restored back again thereunto , that he is ( comparatively to such ● one ) but as the ●east of the field , that perisheth , yet ) in the fall he hath all that is essential to him , as a man , and flowing ex principirs naturae ; but ( and this may be an addition to the other arguments in the book , if it be not touch't upon therein already ) gods law or light in the consciences of all men , which we call them to , though given of god in some ( not the same ) measure at first to all , so that universally every individual or hath , or hath had somthing of it , yet , through mans not using it well , may ( he yet remaining essentially a man be totally taken from him ) as the talent from the s●othfull ) and darkness come upon him , and be left to walk in utter darkness , and to stumble in that dismall night , of which its said then , and of that time , he that walketh in it , knows not whether he goes ; and to stumble , not only because he hates the light ( as he did before , while yet he had it ) but because now he hath it 〈◊〉 , and because now there is no light left in him : of which light and of its universality and sufficiency to save such as seek god in it , and how it 's a supernatural , spirituall gift , and grace of god to all men , where it is , and not the naturall faculty of mans understanding only ( as our opponents pittiful●y pra●●e to prove it is ) is most plain●y proved in the th exe●citation from p. to p. . and made more apparent in the appendix also . and when we assert the ministry of christ to be an infallible ministry , and the spirit of god , by which his ministers are ever guided in the work of his ministry ( for they are out of his ministry or service , and in the devils at that time , who ever are at any time guided by any other ) is an infallible spirit ( for god hath no fallible spirit that we know of ) and that all the directions , leadings and guidances of that spirit are infallible ( which spirit hath no fallible guidance ( as j. o. little lesse then seems to intimate he has ) that we know of ) and consequently that all , who are led by that light or spirit are ( so far ) infallibly led , and that all , and only they are the sons of god , that are led by that spirit of god , and that god hath children at this day in the world , and so consequently that at this day , his ministers and children , who are all ●aught of god , are infallibly taught as they attend , to that anointing , that 's given to be their teacher , that leads into all truth , which spirit of christ also whoever hath not ( as his teacher ) is none of christ's : then they bely us as saying of our selves that we , as of our selves , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as j.o. flouts ) are infallible . whereas we say no such thing at all of our selves , nor of any men , but that all men , as in themselves , and in the fall , are no more then fallible : but because men in the fall are fallible , liable of themselves to erre still ( as they are erred already ) to their own ruine ; therefore god in his love hath sent his son a light into the nations , so to be his salvation to the ends of the earth , to lighten them that sit in darkness , and to guide their feet in the way of peace , out of the crooked paths they are in , in which who walks can never know peace , and that the light and spirit of him , who is the light of the world , the lord , that spirit , which is truth it self , and no lye , is lent ( as the letter speaks of it ) to every man , & even that true light that enlightneth every man that comes into the world , given to lead him back infallibly unto god , from whom it comes , who can be known out of that , no more then the sun can be seen by any other light , then what shines from it self , in which light , wherein he looks after the lost , whoever look after him are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and shall find that salvation of which he says , look ye unto me and be ye saved all ye ends of the earth : of the infallibility of which light and spirit , and of its guidance of all christ's ministers , and children , and of all men also , so far only , and no further , then as they are led by it ( as of old , so at this day ) there is much said in answer to those ignes fatuos , that fain the contrary , in the exercitation from p. . to p. . and because we call on men ( as the scripture does ) to perfect holiness in gods fear , and to cleanse themselves from all uncleannesse of flesh and spirit ( then which there is no more ) as a thing attainable by christs grace and power only improved ; as a thing not only possible to be done here , as god requires ( who calls not for impossibilities from his people on pain of eternall punishment , if they perform it not ) but also needfull and necessary to be done here , if they mean to do it at all , sith ( as themselves say with vs against the pope ) there 's no purgatory in the world to come ; they commonly accuse vs of saying , in a self-vaunting , proud , disdainfull , vain-glorious boasting way over all other men , of our selves , that we are perfect , and ( as j. o. impudently intimates ) that we impudently glory in it , that we are free from not only hypocrisyes , fraud , wickedness , lyes ( which it seems he can't glory yet that by the grace of god , he is yet free from ) but even from all other , even the very least evils , and so would have us have punitiones , incarrationes , punishments , prisons , &c. for so saying . whereas we use not to bear testimony to our selves , but to the truth of carist , and though by the grace of god only we are what we are . and his grace ( to whom alone therefore we give the glory , and not to our selves , who have nothing but what we have received , and glory not ( as some do in sin and shame ) nor boast ( as they do in evill doing ) of anything that 's good , as if we had not received it ) is not in vain , so , but that our walking is such that they can't accuse some of us justly of the least evills , yet we testify the truth rather as a doctrine to all , teaching not what our selves are ( what ere we are ) so much as what both we and all men should be , and also may be by the grace of god , who is not wanting to us , if we be not wanting to our selves ; and must be also , ( viz. ) deniers of all ungodliness and worldly lusts , and godly , righteous , & sober livers in this present world ) or else it had been better men had never been born , seeing for them that loose their day for it here , it 's too late to begin that life in the world to come , where there is no purgatory , nor place for repentance , though it shall be then sought carefully with teares , pro. . math. . luke . in this doctrine , as in many more , if they do not maliciously mis-represent us , yet at best they most miserably mis-understand us , not well heeding these things that hereunder follow . st . that the qua. themselves hold not out , as attainable such a perfection of holynesse , grace or glory ( as to degree ) here , as admits of no addition of a greater degree of it hereafter , for of the increase of christs image , glory and kingdom there is no end ; but such a perfection only , as is without unholiness , or committing any sin , or transgression , as whereby there is a perfect defacing and destroying in them , the works , & the old contracted , ugly image of the devil ; anger , hatred , envy , wrath , blood , cruelty , uncleanness , drunkenness , and all such like lustings to evil ; which whoever arē not purged from before , can never enter into the kingdom of god , and christ , which is that incorruption , that corruption cannot inherit : full deliverance from the doing of which evills , is a true perfection of holiness ( according to the measure of it ) though not so great a measure of it , but that hereafter there may be more ; as adam in innocency had no sin , yet not so much of god , good and glory , but that it might possibly be augmented : the elect peter writes to received the end of their faith , the salvation of the soul , which is from sin , or nothing , by him , who was manifested a light into the world , to this end , even here , to destroy the works of the devil . dly . that we hold not out a condition of full freedom from temptation , which if any be without , he is wise enough to keep it to himself , and not to prattle of it to the priest , who ( for all his preaching against it ) can't with patience hear of turning yet from all transgression ( and lest any should think of me , as more then i yet am , i am not yet that man ( who ere he is ) that 's free from temptation . ) but in our several measures , what we witness in our selves , by the power of god , and gospel of his light and grace , viz. a liberty ( not to sin , which is that some long for , but ) from sin , and a freedom from following any lust , and an ability ( such as we found not while we were where priests & their people are ) to walk not after the flesh , but after the spirit , and to be saved from sinning , though not from sins objecting it self to us , and from transgression , though not from temptation : so it is a true state of perfection , and a state of true perfection , or else christ himself , who was often tempted , matth. . yet never sinned , was not perfect . dly . that we hold not ( as there are some that sillily suppose of us , saying the qua. say they are so perfect they cannot sin ) an impossibility of those mens sinning , who , while they sin not , are saints [ for the denominations of sinners , and saints do tollere se invicem , so as he who is a sinner , while such , while sinning , is no saint , as t. d. dotes , and he who is a saint , or holy one , clean from sinning is no sinner ( specially not as david was , while in his guilt , and filth of murder and adultery , as t. d. dreams also ) for no sinner is a saint while sinning , nor is any saint a sinner , while a saint , or holy one ] but a possibility only not to sin , as men take heed to themselves by the word , and light : non posse peccare is one thing , and posse non peccare is another , and the divines can see it so sometimes , when they please , though they will not own their own distinctions when the qua. make them : they say men must needs sin while in this world , ( measuring others by themselves , who are yet sold under sin , and so under a necessity of committing it , and falling under the law of it ) and because we own them not in their extream , which of the two is farthe●t off from the truth , they dream we are in the other , so as to say men after they once one the light , cannot sin : thus the vile person & churl , whose instruments are evil , destroyes the poor with lying words , when the needy speaketh right things ; for we say that men , though they ought not to sin , yet may or may not sin , according as they heed the light , or heed not the light , which is the power of god against it , by which , psal. . . a young man , heeding it , may cleanse his way , not must necessarily , whether he heed it or no : let him that standeth take heed left he fall : to say men must sin is one thing , can't sin is another , may or may not , as the light is kept to , is the truth . thly . that we doctrinally hold not out such a full freedom , and attainment of po●er over sin ( per saltum ) at once , or at the first step of a person from the darkness , wherein he dwelt , toward the light , so that after once converted to the light only , and to wait in it , there 's a full deliverance witnessed without any more ado ( as our national ministry , who are oft more willing to mistake us , then rightly to understand us , make it out in their muddy medlings against the qua. before their people ) but that those that turn to the light in their consciences , which reproves and condemns even the most secret sins in the flesh , and obey it , and abide by it , waiting patiently on the lord ; in the way of his judgments , while the spirit thereof , and of burning passeth to the purging away the filth , dross and tinn , to those only ( as well as to all those at last ) judgement shall be brought forth into victory over the sin that 's judged , & the righteousness of the law fulfilled , by the power of christ in them , bringing it near to such as thirst after it , and revealing it in the light , from faith to faith , rom. . and the salvation of god from sin , which shall once come , and not tarry , to such as thus quietly hope and wait for it , isa. . . . lam. . . . we say not it's the work of meer man , nor of a day , but the work of christ , which in due time , he will , without failing and being discouraged in it , perform and bring to passe ( for the battle is not ours but the lords ) in such as stand still , beholding and following him in the leadings of his light ; to the rooting out of all iniquity , and establishing of equity in the earth ; to the accomplishing of the work of regeneration , or begetting men back from the image , and nature of the devil , and life of sin , through the death and blood of christs cross , which being but begun in the first act of conversion to god ( which our prie●ts , to the deceiving themselves , and people , think is regeneration enough for them , and to serve their turn , though their turning to god ( as they call it ) be not yet from darknesse , sin , and the power of satan to god in his light neither , but from some one empty dead literal form of profession or other , to another ) they look for the fulness of ▪ as to freedom from sin no sooner ( though ( for shame ) they say not so much in words , because they would seem at least to be at odds with the pope about that point ) then in some certain purgatory in the world to come ; not mattering to be holy here , as god is holy , merciful , as he is merciful , to walk as christ walked , to be as he is in this world , in whom there is no sin , to be pure as he is pure , as men are required to be , and till they are 't is condemnation because of sin , and as such as sing with him on mount sion , rev. . , , . are , and must be ; but contenting themselves to be , as ever learning and teaching , never learned nor taught , so ever purifying , though never purifyed : and if the work were as truly doing too ( as 't is pretended to ) there were then ( according to john . . ) some true hope , because a hope that it would once be done ( therefore we own the lea●t weakling that is waiting on in his measure of the light of christ in his own conscience , as one that is in a truly hopeful way , in which keeping he will once come to something , though a little child , who if he do sin [ as he knows he should not ] knows he suffers for it , yet is not without an advocate , iohn . , . ) but alas , what hope that the work of purging from sin shall ever be done , where its never rightly doing ? as it is not among the priests , and their people , who are not only out of the light , in which alone life comes , but also out of the love of it , and so at odds , and falling out with it , as to blaspheme it , by the names of figment , fancy , fanaticism , &c. [ as j.o. does ] and out of the faith of the thing also : the work is not so far as in fier● yet , while men , in their fiery spirits , are fiercely fighting against the light , which only can do it , and believe not it is possibly to be done ; what hope then is there that ever it should come forth in facto esse ? having st . given this generall account , to all sorts , of the work hereafter following , and of what points are therein principally propounded to publick view , and how we hold them ; a word or two more particularly to some sorts of readers . know then , dly . all ye honest minded , well-meaning persons , who possibly may conceive your selves not much concern'd in viewing over such a volumn , as relates so directly and immediately ( as this mostly seems to do ) to the learned linguists , and academical scholastick rabbies , who get as much skill , as their skulls can scrape together , in scrawling , and scribling against each other , about their hebrew , and greek texts , and transcripts of the scripture , the very literal sense of which ye ( who may know the truth nigher hand ) can ken no otherwise , then by their ( confessedly ) untrue translations ; know ( i say ) that howbeit this is intended mainly as an alarm to all sleepy shepheards , that lye down to sleep , loving to slumber ; and so consists of various matter , much of which may run beyond their reach , who are neither by nature , nor their nursing mothers meer natural nurture , skil'd any further then their mother tongue , nor yet by the spirit , in the things of the spirit neither , yet here is some matter ( and that not a little ) of such a nature , as is no lesse plain to be understood , then profitable ( not to say necessary ) to be learn't by the lost sheep , that have long slept with their drowsy shepheards , & in the dream of their night visions , in the dark and cloudy day of their dimm divinations have bin scattered from their own border , and driven to and fro , from mountain to hill , from form to form , profession to profession , tradition to tradition , and from one outward observation to another , and caused to erre after them , and wander together with them up and down , in dry and parched places , in the thick wood of their own thoughts , in the wilderness of their own wretched wisdom , where they have found no sound health , nor reall rest , or refreshment , but rather more wounds and weariness to their restlesly wounded , and wearied souls . be not therefore bolted out by the fight of sundry passages of it , that are pend on purp●se to the pecular purpose of others , from beholding that in it , which , if perused by you in as much purity , as it was pen'd in pitty to you , may be of pretious use to your selves : for herein also is an hand lent ( in love to the lost ) to lead you in ( o poor perishing parish people ) by the dore , above which you and your clergy have been long climbing up ( as high as heaven with capernaum ) in your self-conceived , luke-warm , laodiceau literature , but are so far from obtaining entrance into that pure pasture , which christs sheep partake of , who hear his voice , that in stead thereof ( except ye yet repent from your powerless profession , of what ye are out of the true way to the true possession of ) ye shall all ( as assuredly as shee was of old ) be brought down to hell. yea , herein all along throughout the whole work , lyes as it were a little line before all , save such as love to look beside it , laid for any that will lay hold on it , to lead them , not from , but to , and by , and together with the letter of the scripture , to the light of him in the heart , which the letter came from , who is the only light that leads throughly to the life ; even his own life , and to himself , who is the truth , way , door , light , and life it self of the sheep , and looks after them that have gone astray from him , to gather them back to look after himself alone for salvation in his own ; and to learn of him alone , who alone hath the words of the eternal life , which all the foresaid word-stealers and truth-sellers , while refusing to stand in his councel , and to receive the word from his own mouth , are ( so living , so dying ) vniversally shut out from for ever . moreover , if any , either through mis-understanding of my honest meaning , or male construction of my good intention therein , shall be offended at my medling so much as i have done , [ specially toward the latter part of the second excercitation ] in matters , that seem to any , who are more seriously addicted then most schollars are [ whose life is wholly lost in looking after littles ] so immomentary to the life of god , as the meer external text of that eternal truth , that 's therein talk't on , and those hebrew points , tittles , vowels , accents , letters , and syllables of it are , which i am , in not a few pages together , well-nigh totally taken up in , and for a time taken off by from points of more immediate pertinency , and truer tendency to salvation ; their unjust offence at me shall not so far offend me , but that , for their sakes , i can and shall here stoop so low , to take that stumbling block out of their way , as to tell them and the whole world the naked truth how it was with me in that particular , and the real reason why i went so far in a talk ( comparatively to the truth ) of toyes and trifles , and was so taedious to my self , and such as look't long since for an end of this labour , and wasted so much paper in a work so worthless ( as it may seem to some ) as is fitter for j. o's iuniors to be busyed in at their schooles ( where pueri tam puerilia tractant ) then for men cal'd ministers , to medle too much with , whose wisdom lies more ( if not in forgetting ) yet at least in forgoing frivolosities , that are so remote to the souls redemption , then to fight so fiercely and foolishly for them , as j. owen does , whom ( neither for , nor against , but about them only ) i have much to do with , so that bear with me in it ( if it must be deem'd my folly ) the ground of which piece of folly is as followes . in his threefold thing i found j. o. st . in the theses of his latine thoughts , glorying not a little in being ( on behalf of the collegians , among whom he was then a chieftane ) intru●ted , as he talks , with the task of contending for the text of scripture ( not so much against the foes , as , under that name , against the truest friends of both the text and truth ) as the word of god properly , as to name and thing , and not only consequently , but most expresly also both there and in the st . of his two english treatises , the only most perfect rule of all belief and holy life , stable standard , true touch-stone for triall of all truth , doctrines , spirits , speeches , yea it s own also , and the sole sure foundation for all true faith to stand on , and be discerned by , from falsehood , fable , and meer fancy ; and not only so but also tiring himself , in his taedious second treatise , to evince the entireness and integrity of the said text , to every apex and tittle , as at first it was given out , without addition , ablation , or alteration in the least ●ota or syllable , p. . in the trans-scripts of it in the original languages ( how ever confessed by him to be corrupted , and egregiously adulterated in all translations ) and insisting so uncessantly , eagerly and earnestly in proof of the said integrity of the outward text , as for hast to outrun all his own reason , and to reject also the uncontrolable reasons of all others to the contrary , putting also so great a stresse upon that poor punctilio of the hebrew punctation , as , from a self-conceived imagination , and dangerlesse affrightment , to stickle for its antiquity , again●t those that on better grounds iudg it to be novelty , and not coaevous with the consonants , with such stric●ness as to deem all divine , saving truth lyes at stake , and is eternally liable and likely to be lost , if it be not , as he conceives in these particulars : for ( as is seen at larg in the book ensuing ) he trembles to think what will be the is●ue , how desperate will be the con●equences of such a conclusion , that the text-mens hebrew and greek transcripts , are by mistake mis-transcrbed in a tittle , and that the points , vowells , and accènts were added to the hebrew text by the tyberian mastorites ; a firebrand is brought into the churches bread corn ( quoth he ) all 's utterly undon for ever as to any true distinct , sound , certain , saving knowledge of god , or understanding of his mind & will , without either remedy or hope of recovery , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ther 's no firm footing nor foundation to stand on , no abiding bottom at all to build on , no right rule for the faith and obedience of the church to be regulated by , no word of god remaining uncorrupted , no more means to be seen of being delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all sacred truth , epi●t . p. . nay though it be yeilded by his antagonists , that howbeit the copies are corrupted , altered , and found various in their lections , as to the meer letter , nevertheless the saving doctrine , as to the substance of it , remains sound and entire , in the copies of the original , and the translations that remain , yet this is no satisfaction to him , he deems that the saving doctrine can't continue entire and uncorrupt , and that their is no relief against the absolute perishing of all truth one of the world , without any rule or measure of iudging and determining any more of it , or principle of discovery ; or medium of its rectification or recovery , if every tittle , and iota be not preserved entire , or on supposition of any corruption to have befallen the outward writing , p. . , . yea upon such supposition , that we have not every letter , tittle , point , iota , syllable , accent , &c. as 't was in the beginning of its writing , without alteration by ablation of any apex , or addition of the hebrew punctation , gods promise , isa. . . mat ▪ . . fails , his care of his word and church fails , he leaves it in uncertainties about the things that are the foundation of all that faith and obedience he requires at our hands , so that we know not where to lay ● sure foundation of believing , yea 't is impossible we should come to any certainty almost of any individual word or expression , whether it be of god or no , p. . yea p. . out of jo. isaac , he that reads the scripture without points ( and so must they read it , ●oho did read it before points were ( say i ) as they did before ezraes dayes , if the points were not from moses ) is like a man that rides a horse without a bridle , and p. . . on this hypothesis that the points are added i know not ( saith j. o. ) how bellarmines inference can be avoided , then which i know nothing in all his opposition to the truth , more pernitiously spoken , that partly by their addition , and partly by the negligence and ignorance of the transcribers , the hebrew scriptures , which are not uuniversally corrupted by the malitious work of the jewes , are not yet so wholly pure , and entire , but that errours are crept into them ; yea they that are otherwise minded then those are , who maintain the antiquity of the vowels , and accents , and with radulph cevallerius ( whose opinion he sayes is his own ) that the hebrew language was written with them from the beginning , do not only make doubtfull the authority of the scriptures , but even pluck it up by the roots , for without the vowells , and notes of distinction it hath nothing firm and certain , p. . yea so dangerous in the consequence● of contending for various readings ( though not false nor pernitious ) that there 's nothing remaīning upon that account firm and unshaken , p. . without the owning of these points to be of divine original , we shall be left unto great uncertainty in all translations and expositions of the scripture , p. . yea the distemper that there are cor●uptions befallen , the text , & varieties from the first copies is dreadfull , and such as may well prove mortall to the sacred truth of the scripture . these cuen multis aliis , &c. are the extremities j. o. asserts his position in , insomuch that , if is hold not in this light , he confesses himself , and all such as side 〈◊〉 him to be co●founded , and at a losse as to all their faith , and unquestionable knowledge of any saving truth to this day . for asmuch then as i saw the s●●rs so blind as not onely not to distinguish o●èr ( which yet sometimes j. o. does , but that 's to the further discovery of his own confusion , and self-contradiction , when at other times he does not ) between the word or truth it self ( which was in mens hearts before the text , which truth is by the quakers not denyed to be properly gods word , the foundation , & what ever else j. o. falsly affirms the text to be , and the text it self which in time came from it , and does but te●l of the word and truth to be nigh in the heart ; but also extolling those externalls with such extream rigidity as aforesaid sith also the fight is about no lesse then the very fundamentalls of the very clergy , and university mens faith it self , which is the most immediate foundation of the faith of most other man , who pin their faith on their sleeves and believe implicitly at a venture as their ghostly fathers and holy mothers believe and so miscarry and drop into the ditch with them , if those their blind guides happen to be out ; i was much prest in spirit , in words at length and not in figures , as to she●● both the faultiness of the one , a●d the falseness of the other , that i might ●●mind them of the onely true foundation of all truth , which in the d. exerei●●tion is proved to be , not the text or letter ( which yet is owned as useful in its place ) but that inward light , word , and spirit , i. o. jeers at , and does all the despight to , that almost is possible to be done to it , by any that do n●t ( as be sayes falsly the quakers do , ex. i. s. i. ) delight in doing the devils work of defiance to the word of god ; so not to leave him wholly unanswered , nor yet answered only by the halves ( though in answering him , i should make my self more like him therein then i am ) in his flood of folly , and absur'd assertion of the necessity of every tittle of the greek and hebrew text , to the being and abiding among men of all sacred , saving truth : this is the respect in which ( though else my life and delight , lyes not at all in penning and printing , ought about such impertinencies as these ) i had not only a liberty lent me , but also a certain load laid on me from the lord , which led me into so large an examination of j. o's . lost labour about the letter , and to become a fool among fools at this time , so far , as to busy my self with them in their bawbles , if by any means i might gain some of them to a sight of their vanity , madness , and folly , and to a sober , solid seeking after the more sure and serious things of the true wisdom it self , viz. the fear of the lord ; which is to depart from all that his light in their own hearts makes manife●t to be evil , and to dwell not so much in the seeing , knowing , and talking of trivial , temporall tittles , as in walking in the eternal truth ; which is the beginning of that wisdo● , which is folly to the fools , that yet walk in darkness , but doth in truth excel their university wisdom , or science ( falsly so called ) as far as light , excelleth darkness . and as to the bigness of the book , which calls for so much the more cost from him that buyes it , and so much the more pains from him that 's willing to busie himself in it ; if that trouble any one , it shall not trouble me , who have now gone through the toyl of that attendance to it , which ( were it not freely for truths sake alone ) i should in no wise take again upon me , though to gain much more then the whole impression of it amounts hitherto to the charge of such as have carried it throw the presse : the truth is , i once intended no more , then to have set out some single sheets to j. o's anti-quakerism onely , but it so falling out , that before i was well warm in that work , after two or three publike disputes at sandwich , held by three of us call'd quakers ( viz. r. h. g. w. my self ) with tho. danson , and sundry of his associates , there crept out two quarrels of t.d. against quakerism ( as he calls it ) much what to the same truthlesse tune , as j. o's was ; and by and by another peice patcht up t● the same purpose , from those two brethren , j. t. and r. baxter , that were once beating each other for some years together about infant baptism , but are now both as one man biting the quakers as ' t●ere ) with their teeth , which are as spears , and their tongue , which is as a sharp sword , and baiting at that truth that 's testified by them , and finding that these four ( however oft contradicting each other ) were all carried about in the same cloudy circuit , and whirl-wind of doctrine , and did all center in the same sinck , of absurdities in their own sayings , and of abominable abuses of the quakers , and among them all so fuly , in one synod , sounding out the whole sense , and leven of the whole lump , that ( nil● fere dicendum est , quod non dictum prius ) there can s●arcely any thing henceforth be said against vs and truth , which is not said before by them : instead of setting my self to enter the lists with j. o. in a single conflict , i saw it more serviceable to single out these four , as four of their choi●est champions from among their fel●owes , and under the form of a reply , directed , by name , more particularly to these four , to give this ou● as a general account of our own principles , and con●u●ative answer to the contrary principles of a● mens : and this occasioned what was ( in my intent ) set ou● at first , and smaller systeme , to swell out at last into so large a size . besides , as 't is the very life of collegians , and clergy-men , to busie themselves most in their musing places , where they may have most book-room , being apt to think al● lesser pa●●ers pedling , and unfit for them to find ought in , that may be answerable to the vast voluminousness of their invention●● so j.o. iudges the quakers to be ( as it were ) but in jest , and to trifle with him , when they take him in hand , and talk of his long tales , in two or three words ●nely , and would not have his matters medled with , unlesse more fully : witnesse epist. p. . . where ( quoth he ) one of ●ate ; not understanding me , nor the thing he writes about , his mind for opposition was to be satisfied : i wish i could prevail with those , whose interest compells them to choose rather to be ignorant , than to be ta●gin by me , to let my books a one . another in answer to a book of an● sheets of paper , returns a reply , ( quoth he ) to ●o much of it as was written in a quarter of an hour . this is the manner of not a few in their writings ; i am therefore minded ( quoth ●he ) to abstain from such engagements . upon such considerations was i enticed on the enter , ● and trace further and farther after him ; so that this may satisfie such as would haue had it shorter : but ( to be short with such ) if the authors pains and pay , in fenning and printing , be not worth the readers patience , in perusing and purchasing , who will may let it wholly alone for me ▪ he that lik●s not the length of it hath enough of the same to make it shorter to himself however , and may look upon as little of it as he lists . thirdly , now , o ye priests , and universally erring university leaders of all other people in things of the soul , and its salvation , i shall say the lesse to you here , by how much the whole following fabrick relates to you more particularly then to any ; though it har● no● only a general respect to you all , in regard of your brotherly relation to those more specially spoken to , but a general respect in some sort also unto all men : whether i am in more opposition to your principles , or pitty to your persons , i ●an scarcely say , since i seek the destruction of nothing but what destroyes you , whose souls i am sure i love , as much as i loath those light-lesse laborinths of your learning ( falsly so called ) in which you loose you selves and perish : marvel not that my self , and other man , of more mean as count then your selves , meddle so much with the ma●ty matters of your ministry , who have so long excluded all mechanicks , and plain country creatures , from the close conclave of your clerical and collegian counsells ; but know assuredly that the day of god is dawned upon the earth , wherein , from his own light , which ye labour against in the fir● of your furious minds , wearying your selves for very vanity to blow it out , it shall be fill'd with the knowledge of his own image and glory , as the waters cover the sea , wherein , as ye have fought his fear after your own precepts & traditions , whereby ye have turned his ●●uth upside down , so he is ( as he threatned in that kind , isa. . ) bringing the wisdom of you wise men , and the understanding of you prudent ones to nought , so that your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed , as the potters clay . wherein , as ye have divided jacob from his god , and scattered gods israel from their dwelling , which is the light itself in the hearts of men , in which god is , and dwells with those , who there dwell with him ; which light christ and his ministers seek to draw all to , and by it unto god , and which it 's the devils work from the beginning to seperate men from , in your anger , which is fierce , and in your wrath , which is cruel , like that of levi , after whom you are called ; so he will ●i●i●e you in jacob , and scatter you in israel : wherein , as ye are become bruitish pastor's , and have not sought the lord , so ye shall not prosper , but all your flocks shall be scattered from you ; wherein the lord of hosts is coming down to fight for mount sion , to fetch his flock fro● between your 〈◊〉 , and like as a lyon pe●●ring on his prey , when a multitude of shepheards is called forth against him , he will not be affraid of your voice , nor abase himself in the ●ost of his holy ones , wherein he appears against you , for the noyses ye make against his holy truth ; but as ye have provoked him to wrath , by your own inventions and false worships ; so he will provoke you to iealousy by a foolish nation , and weary you by such as are no people in your eyes , and , by 〈◊〉 , mean , weak , foolish nothings , confound your mighty things that are ; so that it shall be 〈◊〉 of the learned linguists and greeks that see● after wisdom , where● the scribe , where 's the disputer of this world● 〈◊〉 not god made foolish the wisdom of this world , who by ●s wisdom knew not god , & this by that foolishnesse of preaching , whereby he saves th●● that believe● how are the hidden things of esau searched 〈…〉 no more in tema● , & 〈…〉 is 〈◊〉 up thy son● o sion , against thy sons o gr●●●d , and ●aking them against thee ( o greece ) as the sword of a mighty man in his hand , and 〈◊〉 the foundations of thy fa●ed faith , and shaking all thy supertitious 〈◊〉 i● the ground . and as to the e●postulations , that are hold hereafter with you ( o scholasticks ) bo●be i● i●● in pave about the body , yet it s principally about the pre●ended bottom of all your babyloni●● buildings , in which if your basis were not so brittle as it is , and must be ( being , by your own confession , but the outward te●● of that ●●ward truth , which you te●● me● , while you talk of it , 〈◊〉 to●●ly out of ) must needs be by so much an unstable standard , by how much by your selves , by the pens of your university doctors , in their choicest divinity disputes , undertakings and fencing for the fum●ess of it , it 's yielded to be as alterable in the very greek , and hebrew copies of it , as the letters , vowells , accents , and lotaes of it , are lyable to be chang'd in sound or shape , at the wills of criticks : witnesse the acknowledgements of j.o. that lately choice oxo●ian champion , and latine labourer pro scripturis against the quakers , whose scribling so much on behalf of the scriptures , and the integrity of the outward text , and the word of god , against us , who are truer friends to both then himself , which was the first occasion of this rescription , and is very largly replyed to , in the d . and d. of these . ensuing exercitations . concerning whose work tos● many of you rabbies , whom he reasons for , and represents , i shall here subject onely these three things , which ( consideratis considerandis ) will shew , that by your own concessions to vs , about the outward transcripts , or texts of the scripture , if they ( ●● they are p●ofess'd to be ) be●t ●e onely rule and roo● of all that ye call your religion ) ye grant your rule to be not infallibly right , and your root , which is but a mouldring , and mouldred writing to be but rottenesse , and so consesequently , that at last your blossom must go up as the dust. . let it be ●eeded how j. o. ( as is aforesaid , and hereafter 〈◊〉 at large ) pleads the absolute necessity of the integrity of the present text to be in the hebrew and greek transcriptions ( though translations , which are the peoples scriptural rule , himself proves to be most exceedingly corrupted ) entire to every tittle , as at 〈◊〉 giving out , without any losse , so strictly , that if it be not so , but it appear to have been altered by ablation , or addition , of the points by the tiberians , 〈◊〉 cessarum ●eft , he utterly gives up for gone all gospel-godliness , cryes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? where shall we stand. and sees no way to be delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all sacred truth . . let it be considered , that ye , who plead such a necess●y of such integrity of your foundation of faith , had need be sure of your hand , yea , infallibly certain in your selves , and in your proof of it to others , or else ye make your own graves with your own hands , and pluck up your own religion by the very roots : ye stand eminently concern'd , upon the concession of your faiths foundation not to be firm , in case one tittle of the text , ye frame all upon , be found wanting , or points added since its giving out , to make it not probably onely ( as incertum aut ignotum , per incertius aut ignotius ) but unquestionably clear , that the text hath every tittle , and that no points are superadded since its first penning , or else to begin again with the qakers , at your a.b.c. in the things of god , and lay a better bottom for your building , and surer ground for your faith , then ere ye have done ; for ( as j. o. sayes in another case ) it s but meet that men should be call'd to account upon their own principles ; and such as suppose salvation to sinke , if every syllable be not seen , and repose so eternal a trust upon a temporal , external text , as to assert all saving truth to fail for ever , if its transcripts be not as entire now , as they were some thousands of years ago , and ●in the everlasting gospel of god on so ticklish a point , as mens mistaking , or not mistaking , in writing out the bare letter of it , had need to be not so suppositive , ( as j. o. is ) but positive in their proof , and uncontrolably demonstrative of their principall proposition , and not impositive of their own thoughts , imaginations , apprehensions , uncertain conjectures , and pretended probabilities onely , sith the stresse of a case of such dangerous consequence stands upon it , that all souls ( as j. o. sayes at least ) so depend on it , as to have no means of their salvation , if their proposition prove false , and they happen to be out , or miscarry in it : or else in case ye can't so clear it , then confesse ( as j. o. seemes to do sometimes , but that he is loath to stand long to the honour of such a confession ) that ye well know not where ye are , nor what to say about the various lections ye finde to be crept into your text ; nor what may be the cause of its being so ; and that ye have nothing to blame , but your own ignorance of the scriptures , and other cases ; and of the true foundation , which is the word it self , and not the scripture , or writing of it ; and that ye have never with your shallow comprehensions and understandings , ye have hitherto lean't to , reached yet the vtmo●t depth of truth , and so think it meet , since ye can make no demonstration of your position , to lay it down altogether , and , of learned men become meer wormes , not captivating others to your own thoughts , but captivating your own thoughts to the truth , and to the authority of god in his word nigh in the heart , and not leaning alone to the lesbian rule of a naked letter without you ( see j. o. p. . . ) for as error minimus in principio fit major in medio , maximus in fine ; so , there being but some errours in your bottom ( o ye builders ! ) your building must needs stand awry , and be most crooked at the top. yea , this is a most vndeniable truth , that the faith about that , which is beleeved to be the foundation of all saving , and divine faith in other things , must be built upon an undoubtedly divine basis , and stand in a ground that can't be shaken , and on an infallibly sure , and unquestionable foundation , and not on such a flexible thing as mans conjectures , thoughts , apprehensions , opinions . this way , or that , nor on meer humane fallible perswasions , reports , writings , testimonies , traditions of authors , either on one side or other : or else ( as j. o. sayes ) so say i , we shall quickly see ( and because of this , see it we do already ) what wofull estate and condition the truth , that the scripture talks of , will be brought vnto , and how brittle the belief is : if the foundation , that any fabrick stands on , should be stone , and the ground , that foundation stands in , should be but sand , that building will not abide ; when the stormes and waves come : if the foundation of your faith in other things be the integrity of the text to a tittle , as at first given out ( for so it is with j. o. or else he gives all up for gone ) and your faith about that entireness to a tittle of the text be founded no where but in fancy , conceits , thoughts , or in the opinions of your selves , and other men ye side with , opposing as learned as your selves that side against you ; i here affirm in sober sadness , and in the fear of god , not derisorily , that all your faith is of no more force , then a fiddle-●tick is of to fight withall , as to the effecting of that full freedom from sin and salvation , which comes by christ , which is the end of his coming , to all those that unfainedly believe in his name . dly . let it be we●l and wisely weighed , how wonderfully farre short of scientificall syllogismes , and clear demonstrations , or of so much as true topical evidences either , your arguments are , in proof of that entirenesse and integrity of your text in every tittle , if there be no better to be vrged by you ( as in truth there are not ) then what are vrged by j. o. in that case , on behalf of the university and clergy . for after j. o. had stood out as long as he well could with sticks and straws against the novelty of the points , and the variety of lections in the texts of your transcripts , he plainly yields and confesses both , as is shew'd hereafter . st . vrging his false conceits about gods promise , and providence , and loving , and carefull aspect over the transcribers and such like fancies of his own , yea all along his own and others thoughts against them , and concluding thence thus , shall we think this and that ? is it not very improbable ? shall we imagine so or so ? and then at last clearly confessing the same he before contended against . which grants , though , when they are gone from him , he would gather in again , fearing he hath lost a●● , if he do not a little qualify them ; yet in what a poor way he puts on to reduce and recover what he had given by his yieldings and acknowledgments , and how they are of as little force , and to as little purpose , as pharoahs endeavour was to bring israel back , when he had once let them go from him , a very fool may feel , by the following examination of what he uttereth toward the regaining of his ground again . his maxime or main proposition , he fights for all along , from first to last , being that the now copies of the originall text are entire to a tittle , without any losse , by the mistakes of the transcribers , or change , by addition of the points . his main medium of proof is the promise , providence and care of god concerning the entire preservation of your originall texts to a tittle : the foolishness , falseness , weakness and absurdity of which , together with many other mediums used by him , not one of which is ta●tamount to so much as a topicall argument , i have sufficiently hereunder discovered . one of his main subordinate mediums is ( not the infallible guidance , direction or assistance of god , for that 's denyed by him , to all the transcribers , the first , as well as the last , p. . ) but only the religious care , diligence and consideration of their work in hand , and with whom they had to do in it , and gods loving aspect over them in it , and this is all he does , or dares ascribe to the best of them , from whence he inferres no more ( which yet is not half enough to his purpose ) then a probability that they might not be mistaken at all in a tittle , or at least not so much , as the transcribers of heathen authors : concluding in such like terms as shall we think ? can we imagine ? surely it s very improbable : it seems to border on atheism to imagine they were mistaken so , as that the same fate attended them , and the text in their transcribing it , as hath done other books , and much more such like trifling stuff . after this his arguing to which probability that they were not so mistaken , lea●t he should seem to have over-shot himself in going but so far , he begins to fall again by degrees , and confesse , st . that , though it were very improbable , yet 't was not impossible for them in any thing to mistake ; and then dly . a little farther yet , he falls a confessing and granting , à potentiâ ad actum , that they did mistake , and that failings have fell out and been found among them , and that from thence various lections are risen , sundry of which he also instances in : notwithstanding all which concessions and grants , whereby he layes himself and his arch-assertion level with the ground , he yet seeks to scramble it up again , and to save himself from sinking quite down , by catching hold on many weak twigs , and to lick himself whole with a legion of little worths , which ( as is shew'd hereafter ) do not heal him of the wounds , which himself gives to his own arch-assertion . thus , while wisdom builds her own house , the foolish woman pulls hers down with her own hands : moreover how ye ministers unminister your selves every way , who can't but see ? ye deny the onely true foundation the letter layes , which is the light , and lay the letter in its stead , yet what a slender kind of honour , ye give to the letter too ( for all your so loud laudings of it in words ) is shew'd exer. . p. , , . ye deny any infallible guidance of your selves , as well as others at this day , by the infallible spirit , which holy men of god ever spake by ( as they now do ) in dayes of old ; ye deny the only way of justification by christ , and his righteousness revealed in your selves ; ye deny the light that leads to life , as very darkness it self ; ye deny perfection here , the very end of all ministry ; ye preach for hire , and divine for money , and have beguil'd people into a love to have it so , what will become of you , and what will ye do when the end of all this comes upon you ? ye are such turners to and fro with the times , turning and tempering your tenets thereunto , that there 's no generation of men ( unless that of those , who , with their traditions , and empty formalities , make void the end and equity of the law , as ye , with yours , make void the very power and perfection of the gospell ) can so generally , or so truly say , as ye may of your selves , tempora mutantur , & nos mutamur in illis : witness all vicissitudes of the times , from henry the th . to this day , wherein ( exceptis excipiendis , some few only , in each turn , to be excepted , who rather then turn would burn , & bear the spoil of both persons and possessions ) the two nurseries of this nation , and their respective nationall nephewes and children ( viz. that noun-adjective priesthood , which could never stand yet alone by the sword of the spirit , without the sword of secular powers , to secure and support them in their spirituall maintenances and ministrations ) have for the most part , as to their formes of religion , like reeds shaken with the wind , and yielding with the tide , lean'd all along ( for livings sake ) which way so ●re the powers in present being ( per force ) would form or frame them to and fro , viz. from popery to prelacy , from that to popery back again , from thence to prelacy again , from thence onward to the scotch presbitery , from thence on to a more moderate , mixt kind of presbiterian-independency , and ( after so many oaths , or vowes , and covenants to endeavour the extirpation , root and branch , of that , which may ( as well as any of the other for ought i know ) serve the turns of such turncoat-teachers , as make an external-temporall trade of talking on , more then of walking in the eternall , spiritual truth ) how many are now minded ( if the word should be , as you were ) to face about again to the o●ning of that late episcopall hierarchy , i cannot determine ; yet i can divine , by the doings of some divines , that not a few of those who were not long since so devoted against it , that ( had not the tide turn'd upon them , contrary to the common course of presbiterian expectation ) one may safely say they would never have said so much for it , as they now begin to do , will ere long ( if not comply with it simpliciter ) yet , by some simple secundum quid or other , distinguish themselves into an union and compliance with it , and dispute themselves into some share and division with its children in their spirituall dignities , and preferments , alias , confound themselves into some common communion with them therein , rather then ( for non conformity to their form and government ) be wholly excommunicated ( ipso facto ) from all communication with them in those their carnall clericalities : if their episcopall brethren ( as they have of late began to call them ) be but as free to entertain them thereinto , in this day of their dominion , as some of the presbyterian brethren ( who dein'd the other no leave , nor liberty to live in their dead form under them , in the day of their ( as undue ) domination , seem forward to intrude themselves into a dwelling with them in their tents , it seems to me at least that they may yet cott'n well enough together with them for their own ends : witness not only some words of r.bs. book about the visibility of the church very newly extant , which intimate his owning , in some sort , a superintendency of bps over presbiters , but also in his preface to that very book of ● . t. i have here to do with , which are these , viz. i have already told the episcopall-brethren that bishop v●her and i did fully agree in half an hour , and therefore it 's not long of us , that our wound is yet unhealed ; ( and though i never treated with mr. tombs about such a matter ) i am confident he and i should agree in one dayes treaty upon terms of communion , &c. thus we see how ready these men are to creep into a correspondency with the metrapolitans themselves of that lately exploded hierarchy : and whether an exaltation to that honour of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , lords over the clergy , pet. . and such a benefice as a bishoprick may not be so swallowed without straining , as to stop the once open mouths of smectymnuus his own sides-men , is shrewdly suspected by many , whose eyes are strictly set to see what some will do , who seem to sit next dore to it : what edm. calamy , and such , as with him seemed to be pillars ( like jachin and boaz ) before the now tottering temple of the late presbitery , will do in such a time , if ever temptation by such a tender shall happen to attend them , will be not a little observed by their old brethren , who were once not a little observant towards them : a little time to such as doubt them may now discover it . ye clash against each other , as eagerly as ye are able in your blind zeal , about many meer accessaries , yet close as cordially as men of one heart , and one soul ( under pretence of love to it ) in enmity against christs true light in all men , which is that main , and one thing necessary ; witness both tomb's and baxer's epistles to that very book of theirs against the q●a . herein reckon'd with , wherein all their former fightings * for and against infant baptism seem to be swallowed up in the gulf of their ghostly agreement against us , and vnanimous gainsayings of that saving grace of god ( i.e. his light ) which tit. . . . appeares inwardly to all men , from appearing ( if it might be ) in its outward ministry unto any at all . the lord open your eyes , that some of you at least may yet see , in this day , wherein ye are much benighted , what makes for your peace , before it be hid eternally from your eyes , that hell , which is enlarging her self to receive all your pomp and present glory , may not open her mouth and gape so wide upon you ere ye are aware , that ye sink all down , as uncircumcised ones into the sides of that infernall lake , and so the pit shut her mouth upon you all for ever . ly . and finally , o ye the present rulers in this english nation , and the rest hereto pertaining , whether supream , or but subordinate , though i neither do , nor may put what herein is put forth under yours , or any meer mens patronage whatever , but under christs alone , by whose power only , in a weak earthen vessel , this work was thus far performed , to whom only , as it came through me from him , so i dedicate it back in service to his own truth , together with all the honour , praise , and glory thereof , which is due alone to his own name , yet i both may and do hereby present it unto you also , as of no small concernment to your selves ; and more peculiarly unto thee ( o king ) sith as thy personal interest , as to outwards , is now under god , and christ the highest ; so thy personal influence into all temporall , and civill affairs , wherein thou art concerned to see to the common wealth of all people , in this thy native nation , that own thy supremacy therein , and in all , but truly spirituals , and meer conscience cases , relating immediately to the soul between which and god , in matters of faith , worship , and religion , christ himself by his light , and no man , much less the pope , is the only judg ) is seen at present to be the greatest upon peoples affections ; that thou with them , maist have the more perfect understanding of the principles of those people , against whom ye are oft much mis-informed . t is a ticklish time with thee ( o king ) and thy government , in the nick of which , thou maist saon do that , which may be the making , or the marring of both thy self , and it for ever : it lyes on me from the lord , herein to clear my conscience towards thee , and those under thee , in bowells of compassion to your pretious , and immortall souls , in his name , whom i serve in humility of mind , to warn you to take good heed what ye do , le●t by tampering beyond the line the lord hath ●ent you in the matters of religion , and so by leaning to some one form thereof , that may seem the truest to some men , whose minds , meerly for their own ends , are moulded into the image of it , ye lead all the rest away captive after that , and so not only over-load the seed of god in all his saints , but over-charge your selves also so far , as to lay wast , not only that religion , which , among all the rest ye ruinate , is the truest , but your own also , which ye would set up to stand alone in the ruines of the rest ; which said true religion god hath decreed so to stand , that all those that are peaceable toward it , and let it alone shall stand the more prosperously by it , and all that rise up against it , in their vain hopes to ruine it , shall assuredly fall before it for its sake : caution is not condemnation : what ever cause there is for it at this time , yet my call is not in this place to complain of what abuses honest men passe under , both in city and country , as contrary to what hath been declared by the king , as they are without his personal cognizance thereof : my hearts desire and prayer to god yet for this , though divided , english israel is that its people may not perish , but yet be saved ; for i bear them record , they have a zeal of god , but not according to knowledg , if it were , they would all come down to that one light of god in every of their own hearts , in which god is , in which alone ( as the letter it came from speaks , john . , , . ) all true union and firm fellowship , both between god and men , and betwen men one with another stands ; yet this i say , as one that hath obtain'd the mercy from god in his light to see it ( to my present grief for them , if they see not timely to it ) that there can be no long lasting peace in these latter dayes , to this , or any nation in the world of christendom , nor beating back again of those swords into plowshares , and spears into pruning hooks , which from plowshares , and pruning hooks have been of late beaten into swords and spears , till secular princes become so prudent , as by blind guides in spiritualls , to be no more beguiled into a building up of some babel or other , with the blood of all other christians , that cannot blesse it , and so pollitick for themselves at least ( if not so pittiful to others , and patiently pious toward the lord ) as , according to gods will therein , to let tares and wheat stand still together ( though not in the one floor i. e. the church ) yet at least in one field i. e. the world , or civil states thereof , untill the harvest ; and to let religion alone ( which is that alone that crushes them to pieces , while they meddle much to make it , and cumber themselves more with it then god requires ) to stand or fall ( as true or false ) by its own power and evidence , which is that of the spirit , without the interposition of any external arm of flesh s●retcht out in persecution of any to establish it ( for not by might nor power , but by my spirit saith the lord ) and leave all people ( who if his word alone may not winn them , have leave so to do from god himself , so they 'l take from him what comes on 't at last ) to walk every one in the name of his god , and leave gods own people ( who have no leave from him to do otherwise ) to walk in the name of the lord their god , from henceforth and for ever . if ye go about to make religion a mee● engine , whereby in pollicy to establish your selves , and make it not rather your own main design to establish it ( and that ye can never do positively , by making lawes for the bringing of all to such , or such a particular form of it , but permissively only , by suffering all people to be of what faith toward god they find evidence for in the light of god within themselves , while they live in peace and faithfulnesse in their civil dealings and demeanour one by another , which is the pleasure of the lord , concerning you in that particular , your work of settlement shall never prosper long , as theirs hath not done , who have lately gone before you , for the mouth of the lord hath spoken it . o my bowells , my bowells ! how have i been pained at my heart to see each of those three several churches of christians , that sit still under the shadow of their selfish shepheards , under the cloudy conceits of their several clergies ( so called ) viz. papal , prelatick , presbyterial , each of which will be national , or not at all , wearying themselves , and their poor christ'n creatures , with no other then the greatnesse of their own way , and each , as it were , no lesse then mo●e ruentem sua , suis ut ipsa roma viribus ruit : that they all , and all others also , walking in love and peace , might stand so long as they are able by arguments , without armes to uphold them , or any armour to shield them , but only the armour of light , by the evidence of their own words , without the edge of either the civil shepheards , or the souldiers swords swaying to any side , any more then to see that the civil peace be preserved by them all , is my desire ; it would then in coolnesse soon be seen clearly , whose god it is that is the lord , and by each single searcher , that the lord alone is god , and such as are for him , would also follow him , and such as ( seeing no other god then baal ) are for him , would also follow him , and each man be well contented to live and dye in the service of , and receive his reward from his own god : and they whose dagon cannot stand , but fall before the ark of the living god , would be seen to be but of that wretched race ; and if yet any are so devoted to their own false god ( though they see he cannot stand in the presence of the true god ) that they 'l set him up again , rather then they 'l own the true one ; let the philistines erect their dagons , after they are down , as oft as they will , even till they fall again and break to pieces , they shall have liberty , withall my heart , to set them up for themselves to worship , but shall never set them up again any more for me ; who know that what ever is pure religion in the sight of that generation , who are pure in their own eyes , and yet are neither washed from their filthinesse , nor have faith they shall be , while they live in this world , whether they own or own not a purgatory in that to come , yet that pure religion , that is undefiled before god , is to visit the fatherless , and widow in their aflictions , and to keep a mans self unspotted of the world : those men who abide stedfast , unmovable , abounding in such works of god , as the light leads to , find their labour not in vain in the lord ; but whoever seem to be religious , and are unbridled , and not ruled , and ordered by gods own spirit , in their spirits , speeches , and conversations ( and much of that sort of religion there is among christians , as was once among jewes , and is in all men , whom god made upright , but that they seek out many inventions , which the scripture calls vain oblation , isa. . . vain conversation , pet. . . vain customes , jer. . . vain worship , matth. . vain faith , cor. . jam. . vain shew , psal. . . vain thoughts , jer. . . ) these mens religion is all but vain ; as it 's all but novel , and narrow to the oldest , which is most true , and most catholike , or universal . as true as is that there are many religions in the world , so 't is that each religion pleads it self to be the truest , and from no lesse then it 's own greater antiquity and universality then all the rest ; and i as truly know both that church and it's religion , to be both the eldest and the largest , which is by blind men judged to be the least , last , and newest , as i willingly yeild the eldest , and largest , to be the truest : and if that of the quakers so called , which is counted to be the most small and upstart , be not the most catholike and antient that is in the world ( however now disguised by the serpents subtilty , under the newest of those nicknames , which the world never wanted in any age , wherewith to render the right religion odious ) i here professe my readiness to renounce it ; but if it be [ and there needs not much to do to prove it so to be , sith to tremble at gods word , and walk in his light , and in an innocent , honest , humble , harmless , holy life ( the very end of all outward observations ( in which gods kingdom nor stands , nor comes , but in power , and a more hidden , and inward righteousness , peace , and joy ) required once by god , and now by men practiced pretendedly to the self same end ) and to do as we would have others to do to us , which ( saith christ ) is the law , and the prophets , the sum and substance of all their doctrine , the hight of which is that love , that loves enemies , does good against evil , and works no ill to the neighbour , and so fulfills the royal law ( which is the whole of the quakers work , as to god , and of their message from him to the world ) is no other then the same that was universal ( as to time ) from the beginning , even from abel , enoch , noah , who walk't with god in this life by the light , which only leads to it , long before any at all of that letter , which came from the light , and leads to it , ever was to walk by , and not so particular ( as to place ) as any of those are , which falsly call themselves catholike , and yet are not only thousands of years younger then this , but also contained ( as even all christendom it self is ) in some narrow corner of the world , into the whole of which the light hath gone out , and brought forth fruit , to the begetting of that general or catholike assembly , and church of the first born , whose names are written in heaven , to which , as the hebrews then heb. . so the quakers now are come ] then let all those religions , who now renounce it , as meerly new and nothing , beware lest they reject gods councel , which is his light in their own consciences , against themselves to their own perdition . this is that true religion , which where it is not , all outward observation of what god himself requires , is now , as under the law it was , but irreligion , and iniquity in the account of god : this is the good way , jer. . the antient paths , which israel , ever busied in many lesser matters of tith , mint , annis & cummin , neglecting the weighty , & the main , would never be perswaded by her prophets to walk therein ; which way , and who so walk in it are the true way , and holy seed , which , as the substance of the oak , or flourishing tree of religion , when the leaf of all outward form shall fall off , and perish , shall stand and abide for ever . this way is he , who is the way , truth , and life , and this is the church , and people of god , who walk in him , of both whom ( though they seem to the blind seers , to come after all other wayes and people ) it may be said in reference to them all , as john said of the same , this is he who cometh from above , and is above all , who cometh after me , yet is prefered before me , for he was before me , whose seed or church , which is one ( as he said before abraham was , i am ) may say of all outward priesthoods and their churches , before any of these were , i am : be ye therefore ( o all ye powers of the earth ) tender of touching the tender lambs of him , who is the antient of dayes , by whom the judgement is now set , and the books are opening : i know while satan that old serpent is alive , his antient wonted work will not be dead , of moving you by his ministers , whom be transforms , as the ministers of christ , and righteousness , to make havock of both that despised ministry , and that little flook of christ , that hear his voice ; but be ye advised , if not by us , yet at least by gamaliels good councell , acts . . in your councells , who said to them then , as i to you , whom i wish not to afflict any for the quakers sakes , but to take heed of afflicting them at the wills of others , whom they torment and trouble , with nothing , but ( as they think at least ) with too much truth : refrain from these men and let them alone , for if this their councell and their work be of men , it will come to nought , but if it be of god , ye cannot overthrow it , lest happily ye be found to fight against god ; and its hard for you to kick against the pricks : no powers nor people did ever harden themselves against god and prosper : subtile sanballats , tale-bearing tobiah's , and haughty hamans ( who never had that honour , from the honest mordecaies or seed of the jewes , they hungred after , being themselves that seed of evil doers , which are never to be renowned ) were ever insinuating to kings and rulers against the saints in all ages , as a certain odde people dispersed about the provinces and kingdoms , whose lawes are diverse from all people , neither keep they the kings lawes , but intend to rebel , est. . , . neb. . , . . so that it cannot be for the kings profit to suffer them , and so sugge●ting ( as those ministers , who though they swear to the kings supremacy in all ecclesiastical , as well as civil cases , yet in effect take themselves to be supream directivè , in point of appointing what 's the faith , what is heresy , who hereticks , owning the magistrates as supream , only correctivè in point of punishing hereticks , when they have censured & sentenced them as such , do at this day ) * that if it please the king they may be destroyed : yet i say to thee ( o king ) and to all thy councells , and subordinate powers , as ye tender your internal , external , and eternal welfare , proceed not upon account of their proposition of it to you , to persecution of that seed , which it 's so much for the kings profit to suffer to live quietly under him , that ye cannot prosper to any purpose , but must rather perish in all your other purposes for their sakes , while your hands are stretched out against them , and till ye come to let them stand peaceably by you ( at least ) while you have your own , if yet ye will not stand as one with them in their right religion : and if ye mean more lastingly to enjoy your own formes of it ( which are not everlasting , as the other is ) be not found fighters against the power of godlinesse where it appears , for that hastens the fall of the formes before it , which else would be longer liv'd , then so they will be : but if you build anything at all that shall stand much longer then while ye are building it , return to him , who not long since smote you , or else his hand will be stretched out against you still , and begin upon the right basis , the light , and spirit , which leads only into that life , and divine nature , the letter talks on : what ever forms of government , civil or ecclesiastical , grow not up from the ground of that true righteousnes , peace and joy in a holy spirit , in which , and not in words , shewes , forms , nor observations , christs kingdom stands , which is now at hand , must give way to it , as that comes on , no building of man being able to stand , where the lord begins to shew his building , esdr. . . . and though the builders think they make as sure work as those , isa. . , , , &c. that say in the pride and stoutness of their heart , the bricks are fallen down , but we will build with hewen stone , the sicamores are cut down , but we will change them into cedars ; yet they shall build , but i will throw down ( saith the lord ) yea every house that is not so built , is not on the real rock , but the slippery sands , and when the rain descends , the floods arise , the storms and winds begin to blow , and beat upon the house , it will fall , and great will be the fall thereof . according to the liberty by you yet lent us ( who are in their desires sold not only for bondmen , and bondwomen , for then we should the better bear it , but even as very sheep for the slaughter ) it 's no treason to you , for us to reason with them , and with you about them , by reason of whom , so many souls are made to perish ; and 't is no lesse then to betray your own souls to slaughter , and eternal slavery , for you not to try their talk. first , who tell it you for truth , that there is now no guidance of christs own ministers by christs own infallible spirit : they that teach , that their own teaching is but falible , may easily draw all their implicit followers together with themselves into the ditch . secondly , talk for liberty of conscience , while they are under the lash of others , and for persecution , as soon as they can climb to be lords over all . thirdly , that affirm christ's righteousness , wrought in his saints persons , by his power and spirit ( serving to sanctifie them too , & to fit them for heaven ) to be of no other worth , and worth no better name ( and worse they cannot give it ) then that of unclean dung , losse , and filthy rags , which doctrine is necessarily deducible from t. d's . writing against the quakers , who yet sayes , david , even while guilty of adultery and murder , was not in a condemned , but in a justified estate , fourthly , that where and while god tenders salvation openly and universally to all men , he secretly intends it , but particularly only , to a few . fifthly , that that light the quakers testify to , which in truth is no other then the true light , which the life is , which their own rule of scripture sayes , john . . enlightens every man that cometh into the world , enlightens not every one , but very few , and is an horrible figment of the quakers , an imaginary christ , as to salvation in all divine matters , darkness , blindness it self , and many more sayings of that sort , under which they scorn it ( as j. o. does * ) and other divines , viz. r. b. and j. t. little lesse . sixthly , . that the letter of the scripture , is the only sure foundation , and rule of all faith. . that the said letter is variable and varied , and yet . . that a thing that is variable can be no rule neither , which is one of the many rounds the rabbies run in . seventhly , that preaching of perfect purging , and full freedom from sin in this world , is a doctrine of devills ( so t. d. ) and punishable with prisons , and other paines ( so i. o. ) & that there 's no purgatory , for purging away the remnants of it ( as the pope falsly sayes there is ) in the world to come neither ; which perfection of holiness ( so far as to deny of all unholiness ) and salvation of souls from sinning , is the meer end of christs coming , matth. . . the end of all ministry that 's of his giving , eph. . , , . the end of all the apostles writing , & willings of men to walk in the light , cor. , . iohn . , , . iohn . . and of all true faith or beleiving , pet. . . and , as it 's no treachery in us to you nor others , nor yet in you , and us , and all men to our selves , to try what 's truth , before we trust , take , and talk for it , much more obtrude it , as that truth , which must subpaena ( as so ) be believed by ali : so it 's no lesse then time for us to ask , and put it to the question among you ( sith both cannot be so , who are so contradictory , and if they be right , wee l own our selves to be wrong , when once they prove it ) whether those , who in christs name minister the abovesaid messes for truth , or the qua. who in their ministry minister the very contrary , and no less then the infallible truth it self , be christs ministers : so having in my time , born my testimony , as a friend to the truth , against such as tread , and trample it under feet , and a●k'● an answer from that of god in all consciences ( to which i appeal , to judg between the clergy , and the quakers , who are in truth ) i sit down satisfied in my own conscience in the sight of god , holding love to all mens persons , and warr with nothing , but mens wicked works , not knowing whether this may be the last time of asking ; after which ( as to this way of appearing in print against the pervertures of the parish priesthood ) i may , for ought i know , for ever possibly hold my peace . sam. fisher. a lamentation over lost-souls : with a word of warning to all kings , princes , parliaments , powers , and people to beware of such priests , a● uphold the devils kingdome , by pleading ( contrary to the scriptures of truth ) a continuance of iniquity for term of this life , & a necessity of mens transgressing of gods law while they li●e in the world , or have any abode in the body . in th' snare you are ( dear souls ) i truly know it , and , wot i't not , yet there is . that doth shew it ; for first , that 's worst , you are beset with sin ; next those are foes without , ( for that 's with - in ) who preach , yea teach , yee cannot live with - out it ; who hint , live in 't , yet shall yee live , ne'r doubt it ▪ such watchmen catch men in sins snares , not out , by such , how much to take sin lies at scout y●u in its gin , you 'l know when th' light is heeded : know'● now , and how christ iesus is not needed , to win from sin , if in it souls can thrive , to save from th' grave , if there souls are alive . i trow , you 'l know , you cannot live in sin , when all dy shall , who live , and dy there - in : wherefore , before you live you ought t' eschew it ; then must ( i trust ) even whilst you live , or rue it . read this ( for 't is a ridd●e else ) in th' light ; heart read , for th' head herein obtains no sight : it s wis-dom is too dim this depth to enter , vn - lesse you guesse by th' spirit , which dives to th' center . give ore , no more your selves with vain hopes cherish , for lie , and die in sin who doth doth perish . but lay away all weights , sins , which be - set you abandon , and shake off such priests , as let you , and shun , that run you may , with saints , that race , which brings with wings from sin , to th' holy place . to th' place , where grace is perfect , holy sion ; the mount , where ( count upon 't ) there comes no lyon , nor man that can work evil , where the pure in heart leave part alone , and their right 's sure : for while you stile those saints , who plead for evil , and them christ's members , who still serve the devil , nor leave , but cleave to them , the light ye flee , and sure , ye pure ( as christ is ) cannot be. for hire they tire you out with talk , ●ut know their words are swords , which will souls over - throw . their eyes toward lyes are set , truth they be - spatter ; time - serving , swerving still from god they scatter . they sooth , speak smooth , charm , dawb , sow pillowes , flatter , cry peace , where peace is not ; so ends this matter . sam fisher. a list of some of the typographicall mistakes . though ( in i. o's . blind judgement ) it seems to border on atheism to say the same fate ( as to mistakes ) hath attended the hebrew and greek text of scripture in it's transcribing , as hath done other books , yet it seems to me , upon that but running review i have yet taken thereof , that the same fate , in that kind , hath attended this of mine ; which hath ever yet attended both the scripture , and his , & i. t 's . and all other books too ( of any bulk ) in their passage through the press . as for the faults that have befallen this , as they are not very many ( considering the greatness of the impression , and the smalness of the print ) so they are too many to passe altogether unmended , unminded & unmentioned also : whereupon ( excepting such as ( being more gross ) are with a pen already rectified to the readers hand ) of such as are not mended , i shall mention some , wishing him to mend the rest in his own mind : yet some of these hereunder noted were espied , and amended before they were wrought off wholly at the press . in the . exercitation page . line . read kings p. . l. . r. stout standing p. . in the margent r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. . l. . r. there , p. . l. . r. life p. . l. . r. if all p. . l. . . r. more then good ones evill once for more the good ones evil , which is set twice ore . in exerc. . p. . l. . r. thou shootest , p. . l. . . r. live in sin p. . l. . r. rounds p. . l. . r. and l. . r. such silly . in ex. . p. . m. for emul●ate ●enucl●ate p. . l. . r. stirs & strifes m. r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. . m. for ut r. at p. . mar . r. divinus p. . mar . r. scripturae author p. . l. . r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. . l. . r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l. . r. upholder p. . l. . r. for the scriptures l. . r. malicious p. . mar . r. synonimous p. . l. . r. more then th●se p. . l. . r. streining . in exerc. . p. . . . blot out we p. . . . blot out of p. . . . r. no indirect l. . r. but by p. . l. r . r. [ apage ] p. . l. . r. and in p. . l. . r. denomination p. . mar . r. israél , midian , ahaz . in the appendix p. . l. . r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the two sheets at the end p. . l. . for have have r. have . sundry more typ●graphical errors prob●bly there are uncorrected , then i can on a sudden cast my eyes on , by some of which possibly the sense is interrupted , but of all that are , i may safely say [ with i. o. in his vindication of the entireness to a tittle of the originall texts ] bate all such as are evident mista●es , consisting only in superfluity and redundancy of unnecessary ● deficiency of words necessary to the sense of the place , that is to say a● of what sort soever , and then there will be few or none at all . in a word , let every reader do the printers that [ wonted ] right of winking at their [ wonted ] doing wrong : and as i , by their failing , have fallen under the common fate , so i ask no more but that common favour , of non-imputation of their faults to me , ● as mine . typographi ●e reputentur amici . s. f. the preface . john owen , who hast been stiled doctor in divinity , and dean of christ-church coll. oxon. and thomas danson , stiled m. a. minister of the gospel , at sandwich in kent , and late fellow of magdalen coll. oxon. i have taken a view of three books of you two lately extant , against the people commonly called quakers ; namely , of thy threefold thing , i. o. or double-tongu'd piece of divinity doings about the letter and the light , lyingly relating in other parts of it ( partly ) and in its latine part ( principally ) to the quakers . also t. d. of thy two little fard●es of much falshood , generally superscribed with these two untrue titles , viz. the qua. folly made manifest to all men , in auswer to r. hub. the qua. wisdome descends not from above , in answer to g. whit. replying to the other . for the truths sake , which now lies at stake openly between you two , and them , i am minded , as moved in way of reply , to say something to both your books , and to your selves , and the world also about them . i intend not a total translation of that forraign language , wherein that foresaid latine part of thine i. o. in which thou fight st most fiercely with thy fore-nam'd friends , was written ( so much of that shall serve , as will serve the turn of such truths as i h●ve plead against thee in the service of ) nor a total transcription of either of your books ( they are not worth it ) not yet an answer to every falsity that is found therein ( hoc opus , luc labor est , they are more then my measure of arithmetick can easily reach to reckon up ) but a due expostulation with you both , on the quakers and the truths behalf ; an animadversion of some at least of those many absolute absurdities , follies , confusions , false doctrines , flat contradictions to yourselves , which are eve● and anon therein uttered by you ; a subversion of your topsie-turvies , who set the chief things ye have to do , withall a●chi-podialiter ( as it were ) with the heels upwards ; a blowing away of those blasphemies , lies , calumnies , opprobrious titles , disdainful subsannations , unjust accusations , spiteful aspersions , abominable abuses breat●d out by you against the people abovesaid , whom , all that curse , shall once see and say , are a seed , whom god hath blessed ; and ( to be short ) an examination of many such matters in every part of both your books , how scamblingly soever they lye , here some , and there some in them , as i find bear any reference to the qua. or to those doctrines , viz. of iustification by the righteousness of christ in us : of the letters not being the only foundation and rule of faith and holy life : of the infallible spirits inspiration , and infallible direction of his ministry at this day : of the vniversal love and grace of god to all men : of the true saving light of christ , enlightning every man in the world : of the attainableness of perfect purity , or freedome from sin in this life , in each of which ye differ from them , and which against you both , and your adherents , are held forth by them . sundry false and grosly absurd businesses against the light , and its children , may not improbably be briefly noted , as they lye most notably obvious to every common capacity , in the nine sermons of iohn tombs , b.d. which came piping hot from the press , while this of mine to you two , is coming to it , put out by r. baxter ; which pair of blind brethren , as much enmity , threatning , and thunder without lightning , as hath been between them hitherto against each other , are it seems , like herod and pilate , now made friends together against christs light , so as to make one head , though two horns , wherewith to thrust it down if they could , for which a rod , a rod in the lords hand , is already ready for the back of baxter , who , and his once heretical and heterodox , but now reverend and orthodox brother tombs , as two twins that tumbled both out of one belly , even one and the same womb of that babylonish bawd , are both to be tumbled into one and the same tomb , or grave , that ( as your two i. o. t. d. ) so their pair of pratings may go together into the earth , whence they came , as like to like , earth to earth , ashes to ashes , for dust , which is the serpents meat , all your divinity doings are , and unto dust must they all return . now as little method as thy book i. o. hath in it , yet is it as capable to be divided into parts , as it is in each part , in one thing or another , most palpably divided against it self . as to the subject matter thereof , it is in general twofold , ( viz. ) the outward letter , and the inward light ; that external writing , or legible form of words , commonly called the scripture , the holy scriptures , which are ( ad extra , but ab intra ) only and meerly without , though from within ; together with that internal law , spirit , power , or word , which is ( ad intra ) by all that know the truth , as it is in iesus , both seen , felt , heard , understood , and witnessed to be within , not more cryed up by the men call'd quakers , who live both according to it , and the scripture , then decryed by the men that are but supposed to be christs ministers , who are utterly erring besides them both , knowing truly neither the one , nor yet the other . sund●y touches there are given by thee , as thou goest along , at other things ; ( viz. ) vniversal grace , perfection , persecution , modern inspiration by the spirit of god , revelation , and such like , about which thine and the quakers doctrine differs , by which ( as ex pede herculem ) thy pulse is felt , and it 's spied out how thy spirit blows against christs ; thy truthless talk , of which may ( the lord leading to it ) not unlikely be talked with by the way , before i have done : but those two abovesaid , being well nigh the totum in toto , & the totum in qualibet parte , the matters thou mainly medlest with , and most miserably mudlest thy self about , thoroughout the whole body of thy book , and every part thereof , making little less then a very god of the one , i. e. of the letter , which is the last and the least , and the lowest of the two ; and little better then a very devil of the other , i. e. the light , which is the first , and the highest , and the greatest ; so that all others are but toucht upon , as in subserviency either to the deifying , or defying ( respectively ) of one of these , to clear away that fog and smoak which thou raisest about them , both to the thickning and darkning of the sun and ayr , so that none can see either of them clearly , through thy cloudy collation thereupon , is the chief intent , and likely to be the chief and utmost extent of this present answer . as to the tongue wherein it treats , ( excepting here and there a little hebrew , and ( for shew sometimes more then service ) a penful or two of greek interlin'd in both parts , and now and then two or three licks of latine among the english ) thy book stands divided into two parts , ( viz. ) latine , and english ( a cloven tongue of another nature then those that sate upon the apostles ) and these are as the two horns of that second double-fac'd beast , that is as the lamb , and yet speaks like the dragon , wherewith thou pushest at thy opposers on the right hand , as well as on the left , even not only at thy own brethren , the protestant divines , when they please thee not by divining the contrary to thy peremptory peculiar positions , and preheminent pratings , together with that blind brood of the first ten-horn'd beast of rome , to whom both thou and all thy brethren ( though in many things ye justly band against them ) are brothers in nature still , and of neerer kin then ye well ken or wot of , but also against the true people of god. these two general parts ( each of which is prefaced with an epistle also in language like it self ) stand divided and subdivided more particularly within themselves , ( viz. ) the english into two treatises , which subdivide themselves , the one into six chapters , the other ( though falsly figured ) into eight , the latine into four apologetical exercitations ( as thou call'st them ) for the holy scriptures , against ( as thou call'st the quakers ) the fanatical ones of these times . which fore-named divisions and subdivisions , that are scarcely more divided from then against each other , do all split themselves yet fu●ther into a new needless number of smaller sections and th●ses . the two english treatises which arise mostly from one and the same spring or head , together with the other ( not god , nor his spirit , nor yet the scriptures , but the head of the serpent which is to be bruised , thy own brain , vain invention , and imagination ) run along treating to and fro in two distinct streams , or torrents awhile , and at last , having ( as thou sayst ) arctissimum materiae & doctrine consortium , a neer coincidence of their matter with it , and affinity in their subject , by which the whole trinity of them is drawn into that unity to compleat thy double doctrine ( far ) from the scriptures , for the scriptures , fall into one with the latine sourse , or lake of lyes , that burns more hotly then the rest in wrath against the quakers . and having there lodg'd and center'd thy two english discourses , and drawn them into one with this , ( verifying herein that old true saying , vis unita fortior ) thou ventest that venome in stronger streams , and spittest out that spite more fluently , and in fuller floods against the qua. which was in some few places only sprinkled out upon them before , and filling up what was behind of thy flattering false applauses of the naked letter , which with some of the same that were used before , and some new super-eminent undue titles thou● here also magnifiest , beyond the bounds and measure of all modesty and truth , hoping belike to appear approved of christ , as one of note in his service , ( what disservice soever thou do him otherwise ) so long as thou art found saying something ( though hoc aliquid nihil est , as good thou hadst said just nothing as no more to the purpose ) and raking , and skimming , and scraping out of thy own thoughts some ample apologies for the scriptures , thou fillest up thy measure of mad mirth against that true inward light of god , and its children , that testifie unto it , as that which is to be preferred before the letter , and was before it , as that which the letter was given forth from , despising these , as in thy english epistle , p. . p. . under the ( as false as foul ) terms of poor deluded fanatical qua. pretending to be guided by an infallible spirit , that oppose the whole truth about the word of god , so there under the abusive clamours against , and charges of them ( even by whole-sale ) as fanatical ones , that are notoriously known by their errours and foolishness , who are driven by the power of an evil spirit , & depressing the light ( which is the name of christ exalted above all names ) without any colour of light , or tolerable evidence of scripture , or reason , that it is by ten thousand degrees so bad a business as thou makest of it , into so low a condition , as wherein to stand in need ( so far as a thing that needs no such thing , but infallibly evidenceth its own innocency and excellency , may be said to need it ) of such apology , as at the end of this work thou wilt find me making for it , and so as to put it under every name that is named , not only of things in heaven , or pertaining any way to the kingdome thereof , but of things in earth too ; and ( if ens be better then non ens , as ye count it , and a being , though a bad one , be better then none at all ) under things that are under the earth also , setting it at naught , so as to render it worse then naught , till ( what in thee is ) thou quite annihilatest , and mak'st just ●ought or nothing of it at all : having made unto thy self a graven image , and golden god , of that meer image thou hast by thee , of the old original copies of the scriptures , in thy frothy , vain , light , and yet dark and lightless mind , thou dost , hos omnes naso suspendere adunco , ironically fall a scoffing at the qua. and the true light of the true god , and consequently at the true god from whom it comes , puffing at it , as if thou wouldst puff it out at a blast , making thy self merry over it among thy academical admirers , laughing both it , and all that own it , and so him that gives it out , even to very scorn , terming it , ( as if thou knewst not what to call it that is bad enough for it ) i know not what light , that hath no community or correspondency with the scriptures , and ( jeeringly ) the infa●lible d●ct●r , that counterfeited light , or word within , the feigned imaginary christ , i know not what god , or plen●iful horn of the heavenly goat , better then any god , ● h●rrible figment , a certain imaginary christ they lyingly devise , which is a light within common to all , i know not what spiritual every thing , that is truly nothing , the meer imaginary and fancied christ of a s●rt of fanatical men , i know not what divine quality , or soul of the world , mingled into all things , which may be every thing , and in very need is just nothing . thus when thou hast made thy self sport enough with vilifying the light of christ , and christ , who is the light , thou art pleased to end thy play with a nullifying of it , and so de nihilo nihilum , nihil in nil , &c. out of this nothing there can come nothing ; and thou having done thy do with it , hopest to hear no more of it , away it must without more ado , having nothing to do , in rerum natura , but to make i. o. merry a while , and at his will to become nothing again . but i. o. — hoc ego opertum , hoc ridere meum ( tam nil ) nulla tibi vendo scriptura vel inane tua quacunque vel ipsa . as very nothing as this light of christ , and word within is with thee and thine , whose thin somethings , and empty every things , in which you yet bless your selves , are wearing out ; and mouldring to nothing , yet such as know the true worth thereof , will not so undervalue it , as to sell it for any of thy vain scripture for the scripture , nor for the best of that best scripture , which thy vain scripture for it prefers before it , which scripture yet , as to its own proper place and use , they are far before thy self in preferring . and howbeit , thou deemest that the light thou so damn'st down to nothing , hath done with thee , thou having thus done with it , and done it away as far from thee , as a man of thy cloth can likely fling it ; yet there is an hour thou art not ware of , wherein thy self and it must meet again , in which it will find thee out for all thy floutings of it , and come nigh to thee to judgement , as a swift witness against thee , for more things then that , which thou hast forgotten , and set all that thou hast done in thy vile body in remembrance , and in order before thee ; and unless thou repent thee in the time , wherein in the goodness of god its given men to lead them to repentance , damn thee for ever , far further from any sight ( as to enjoyment ) of it self and god , then ever thou by all thy judgement past against it , canst condemn it from thy self , or possibly judge it out of thy sight . as for thy pair of pamphlets , t.d. they consist more particularly as follows ; viz. the first ( which , besides its piece of preface , is a meer five-fold fiction ) of a treble tale , untrue relation , or cursory , crooked , crude , and decrepid account of the three disputations , that were held at sandwich , on the twelf , thirteenth , nineteenth daies of the second moneth , . between thy self , and three of us called quakers , viz. r. hubberthorn , g. whitehead , and my self ; together with a short answer , as ( to the saving me that labour , who should else have so entitled it ) thy self most truly superscribedst it , p. . ( for indeed thy devils bow shoots too short , either to hit the mark thou shootest at , or hurt that innocent lamb-like spirit , that speaks in that , or any other , of r. h. his writings ) to a trifling pamphlet put forth by r. h. as thou triflingly termst it : and lastly , a brief narrative ( so thou nam'st that last and most remarkable part thereof ) of some remarkable passages . the second , which , besides thy epistle and preface , is but as it were a lesser chump of the same old wooden block with the other , subdividing and cleaving it self out also into five smaller chips , fit for little else but fewel for the same fire , by which ( as by the day that now declares the workman , and his work , of what sort it is ) they are all to be both revealed , consumed , and burnt up , among the rest of those bryars and thorns that are setting themselves to battel against the lord , and of those buildings of wood , hay and stubble , which the scornets of the corner-stone are erecting to their own ruine ; viz. a kind of epitomical repetition of what was shufflingly said by thy self in thy first tritie , concerning the four heads , or rather and indeed against these four points of doctrine , viz. the light of christ. perfection . iustification . the scriptures ; with frequent references to thy ( so call'd ) qua. folly , for the rest of thy replyes to us , who had replied to them all ore and ore again before . and lastly , another narrative ; ( not so call'd by thee ) yet for the lies and naughtiness thereof , and nothing else , much more remarkable then the former , as will be seen in my animadversion of it . having said this little to you both , i.o. and t. d. about your books , by way of preface , or dedication , of what hereafter follows , to your selves , and all your followers and fellow-labourers in the like lame cause , who belabouring your selves in talk about the letter against the light , live and walk more by the false fire , and twinkling flash of your own thred-bare thoughts and infatuated imaginations , then either by the letter , or the light. i come now 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without much preamble , or more ado , ad rem substratam , to the businesse and work it self , as it lies before me . and howbeit , i shall not regard any external form , order , or methodical manner of proceeding with you , so much as words and matter of profit and truth it self , yet as there is a quaternity of you , or rather a fraternity of four angry fighters or quarrellers with the quakers , and the truths told by them , viz. i. o. t. d. i. t. r. baxter , all whom , first or last , one where or other , more or lesse , i shall have to do with : so ( though not therefore ) i shall divide my ensuing undertakings against you , in the name and power of god on their behalf , in such wise , as thou i. o. dost thy doctor-like divinity disputations , or latine-labours against them , viz. into four apologetical exercitations , or earnest expostulations with you . the first whereof is to be more down-rightly directed to thee t.d. ( the rest , who are of the same misty mind with thee , not excluded ) in way of examination of that legend of lyes , which thou , like some great benefactor to it , bestowest on the clergies cause , against the truth , and its children ; and as concerning the point of iustification in special , which thou makest thy self a main mannager of against us for all the rest , who say little of it , and in which thou , by thy lies about it , in both doctrine and matter of fact , most basely abusest both thy self , and the truth , and my self in particular , and all the qua. in general also . the second is to be most peculiarly directed to thee i. o. in examination of sundry of thy base belyings and misreportings of the qua. as to their mis-behaviour toward the scripture ; about which t. d. who sides with three therein , doth but give us a short snap and away ; and as concerning the very formal being , nature , text , or letter or the scripture it self , ye call your canon , the b●unds or measure of that your supposed canon , the hebrew puncta●ion , integrity of the text to a tittle without various ●ection , and such like passages , which thou more preheminently pratest on , then all thy fellows . the third is to relate ( though partly to t. d. and partly to i. t. and r. b. al●o , as being all three in some sort tampering together with thee in the same muddy manner , about ( at least ) some of the same mistaken matters , yet ) principally to thee i. o. who , in the dark dream of thy night vision , drivest on more down rightly , as the prime promoter of these principles , viz. that the scripture , and every syl●●●le and iota thereof , is the word of the great god , the most efficacious , powerful , all-sufficient , all-perfecting , heart-searching , soul-saving , living , life-giving word of the living god ; that it , even that outward writing , letter , external text , and not any such thing as an internal word of god , spirit , or light within , is the only infallible guide , incorruptible canon , perfect rule of all faith , holy life , saving spiritual knowledge , or worship ; the most certain sanctuary for the preservation of all sacred truth , the most sure touch-stone , stable standard , firm foundation , true witness of god , the most invariable , inviolable way of safety and security to all divine verity , the most absolutely necessary means of spiritual and eternal life , cum multis aliis quae nunc praescribere longum est , with much more ( id genus ) of the same soure leven too long to be reckon'd up here , sith they are all to be elsewhere reckon'd with in due time and place . the fourth will be promiscuously and interchangeably carried on by way of entercourse with you both , ( i. o. and t. d. ) which two only were intended to be by me so much as medled with , when i first was throughly resolv'd on some reply to your rude reproachings of the truth , as concerning your denial of the universality and sufficiency to save such as heed it , of the light and grace of god in all mens hearts , of modern , immediate , divine inspiration of perfection , as to the purging away of sin in this life , and as concerning your dream of a peremptory election and reprobation of persons unborn , viz. of very few to life , and of many to one as unchangeably to damnation , without respect to their doing good or evil in their life ; about all which , as occasion is , i must have , in a few words , a round reckoning with you both , ( i. t. r. b. and all the rest of that self-reverencing black-mouth'd brotherhood , as blindly banding in one body in the self-same mist of darkness , not excluded ) for the rounds ye run in , as to those particulars at the latter end , i. e. in the said fourth and last part of these foresaid presents , in which , as occasion is , ye four aforesaid fellow-fighters for your own follies against gods wisdome , are likely , little or more , to be all bespoken , in one or other of the chapters , into which also i shall subdivide the fore named four divisions . if ye four foxes , that spoil the vine and her tender grapes , whereof ( inter-scribendum ) one successively still started out afresh upon me , as i was pursuing the sent , and chasing the other , had like those of sampsons ▪ turned tail to tail in all points , ( as in some ye do ) and took several wayes , ye could not so well have been caught altogether , as now ye may , notwithstanding all your majestical craft ; but sith ye face all one way , and joyntly steer your course in general to one cave running parallel into the same wood of your own wisdome , there housing your selves in the same holē , dreaming altogether of no danger neer you , in one den of darkness , there needs no more , but to set something to the mouth of that bottomless pit ye all belong to , out of which the fox-like strong sent , and stinking savour of your erroneous tenets vents it self , to the poysoning of poor peoples souls throughout the whole countryes where your respective beings are , and so digging you out of your foresaid dens , put you altogether into a bag. s.f. the first apologetical , and expostulatory exercitation . chap. i. first then , though they came out last , and began to fly abroad some while after i. owens , yet i shall begin with thy two butterflyes , t.d. which have flown up and down the world , not only upon the wind of their own wings , but also , as fast and far as they could carry them , upon the light chaffy leaves of the whiffling news-books , for some few moneths together , to the frightning of all such folk as are befool'd into an implicit faith of thy folly to be wisdome , out of that little wisdome they have , by that fearful flutter they have made thorowout as well the cities , as vniversities and countryes , with that fal●e , flashy and fair-flourishing title of the quakers folly , under a meer empty seeming shew of manifesting whereof to all men , thou hast more truly in the eyes of wise men , and more fully manifested thy own , and that so egregiously , that petulanti splene cachinno , some man of a light spirit , and ticklish spleen , so much concern'd in the all manner of ridiculosities thereof , as i and my two friends of truth , rich. hubberthorn , and geo. whitehead , who together with me , who am very much , are not a little belyed therein , would have sent them home to their author long since with no other rod at their backs , then some loud laughter thereat before the world , they being worthy of little better reply : howbeit , i have answered them hitherto with no other then sober silence , partly because the first is captivated already from doing so much mischief as it was designed to , and both before and behind too well besieged to do any great execution against the truth , being , a priori , beset by a book of r. hubberthorns , which it gives ( as it faith it self , p. . ) a short answer to , & a posteriori , by a book of g. whiteheads , in which it is as soberly and ●ufficiently replayed to , and partly ( if not principally ) because , as i.os. three treatises have one with another , as he saith , arctissimum materiae seu doctrinae consortium , so thy two books have with his , as to the doctrinal parts , such an affinity in subject , and co-incidence of matter ( being both di putatory , more or less , against the self-same truths the qua. tell ) that in answering the one , the other remains not unanswered ; and as to the narrative parts of both , which are full of false narrations ( if two false tongues of two lying linguists be like one another ) haud linguae dissidium , scarce more difference in language then thus , that as i.os. book tells tales in some , so both thine do in some other particulars against the qua. , insomuch that i saw i might , as also i accordingly do , though the bulk hereof thereby become bigger , and the time of its coming out to publike view a little later then was once intended , in replying to i.o. in many places , wherein he and thou t. danson ( who , eodem horrendo ●ercussi scotomate , dance the r●unds often together in the dark ) do meet in one , easily interpose such a general answer , and render such a round reply to thee and thine , together with him and his , as by which the truth , i singly seek to vindicate , may be truly served , though what i do is scarce so smarting a rod , as by thy two abusive businesses is truly deserved ; and that what is fit to be said , by way of answer to thee , that is so over-p'us , that it can conveniently come in neither directe , nor collateraliter , as miscellaneous among the matter that mainly relates to i.o. might ( as it is here , and as it is but meet ) be clapped on as additional at the beginning . i shall begin with the wings of thy two pamphlets , each of which hath two waxen ones a piece , viz. an epistle , and a narrative , which by the help of those lyes , and false tales , they are , as with so many peacocks tails , behung with , they fly so high at the face of the sun itself , even the light and truth of the living god , that they melt of themselves before the heat thereof , and must , at last , lye as low ( though they sore aloft for a while ) as the very pit of perdition , the smoak of which , together with their fellow - locusts , they first came out from . these their two respective wings , whereof i know not which to call the left , and which the right ( so sinister are they all , and so little dexterity is therein any of them ) being a little cropt , or closely clipt , the barebodies of both t.ds. divinity books , as they will never soundly recover of those wounds that each of them hath had already from the hands of of g.w. and l.h. respectively replying to them , so of the further bruises which they , together with i.os. academical ousets , and hasty assaults of the same generation of just ones , are like to meet with in this ensuing encounter , they will be disinabled from flying abroad so fast , as to do any mischief where the night spends , and the day dawns , though they may possibly live so , as to crawl and creep about a while in some collegian cells , and other such like dark corners of the earth . my entrance shall be at thy epistles , in the first of which thou t.d. sayest , perhaps the reader will wonder that thou shouldst meddle with such a generation as the quakers , and think thy time hangs on the lug , and will not off at any considerable rate . rep. i confe●s i am one of those readers , that more then think thou mightst have spent thy time far more considerably , and to better purpose , to have fully fell on with the qua. in that good work , then to fall upon them for it so fouly as thou dost , of calling thy rude people to repentance from all sin , into perfect purity and holiness , the very thing thou pretendest to have thy wages for . but when i consider the old proverb , that all trades must live , and that thine , as well as that of the lawyers , is no longer liv'd , then while people live and die in trespasses and sins , i wonder no more then at demetrius , and his fellow silver-smiths , of like occupation , who , by that cast of keeping men in sinful blindness , having their wealth , throw dust into the ayr against the light , that would lead them out , that thou and thy muddy generation meddle so much as ye do , to muddle mens minds against such an enlightening and purifying a generation as the qua. are ; and besides , prov. . . every fool will be medling , as iannes and iambres were , as thou and i.o. * are , to manifest the qua. notorious folly in these daies , till they most notoriously manifest their own . t. d. thou tellest , 't was never thy ambitīon to appear so publikely as in print . rep. it had not need , unless thou hadst better ware then thou hast , the darkness , which vents it in thee , is the likeliest place to put it off in , it being not vendible in the light . t. d. that hadst thou consider'd the likelihood of the qua. printing , which would necessitate thine , thou shouldst likely have waved any discourse with them . rep. insipient is est dicere non pura●om : it s as much innocencies ambition to appear openly in the service of truth , as 't is the guise of guilt to hide its head : thou mayst well think the qua. who are in the truth it self , which thou art not yet so much as ( truly ) in the words of , will not be out-weigh'd by the wind of one that ( as thou sayst thou didst ) chuses rather to out-word them ; and whether thou appear any more publikely for thy lyes and doctrines of vanities yea or nay , yet the truth , which may be a while opprest , never sapprest , * will now lye no more hidden under the black dawb of darkning school-distinctions , but will appear , and shine forth more and more , as the morning light to the perfect day , so that ye may to as much purpose forbid the sun from rising in its time , as busie your selves as ye do , to blind honest-minded men as ye have done . t. d. that repentance is now too late , and perhaps unmeet , for god can serve himself by the meanest instruments , among which thou rankest thy self . rep. not too late yet , much less unmeet , so be thou come back by a true repentance , as is most meet thou shouldst , not only for , but from thy inconsiderate opposition ; for the lord will receive thee , through judgement done upon thy lyes , to mercy , for all that 's past , in and by the same light thou art yet an hater of , if yet thou wilt unfeignedly look back to it , and follow on to know him in it , while he strives with thee by it in thy own conscience , and convinces thee of all thy evil deeds thou hast done , and that he requires thee to depart from , who can and doth serve himself by meaner instruments then thou mayst be made ( as meanly as thou , truly enough , confessest thou hast serv'd him hitherto ) in case thou quit thy old master the devil , whose now falling kingdome thou art helping hard to uphold , while thou pleadst so strictly , as thou dost to little purpose , the necessity of all mens sinning while they live , and serve the lord as strictly , and sincerely against sin and satan in thy self first , and then in others , otherwise repentance it self may prove too late indeed , and will too , if thou turn not at the reproof of wisdome , that , as far as thou art from it , is nigh thee in thy heart , till it scorneth the scorners of it : in love therefore to thy soul , the sin whereof i hate , as it is the enemy of it , as late as it is , be advi●ed in time ; qui non ante cavet post dolebit , better late then never . t. d. thou sayest , thou hopest thy reader will see the qua. out of their disguise . rep. i hope so too , out of that wherewith t.d. and i.o. have both disguis'd and disfigur'd them , by then he hath read what r.h.g.w. l.h. have written to thee before , and what hereafter follows , or el●e he is one of those readers of us , i.o. complains of , p. . of his epistle , whose interest compels him to chuse rather to be ignorant of truth and us , then to be taught truth by us ; and if any will either let our books alone , or rejectingly read them , and will needs be ignorant , let him be ignorant ; as we cannot make such a one better , so , what ere he does , we are never the worse . t. d. that he will find cause to speak of the qua. with pitty and compassion . rep. so i hope too , when he shall see how miserably the men , call'd ministers , do misrepresent them , and by their lyes abuse and wrong them to the world . t. d. and of their opinions with hatred and detestation . rep. with hatred and detestation of those opinionists , who , being but in their meer thoughts of the things of god themselves , deem the qua. ( who are past opinions , and know him that is true , and are in him that is true , and the truth it self , knowing also themselves to be of god , and that the whole world lyes in wickedness , ioh. . , . ) to be but where themselves are , namely , in their own vain imaginations and opinions , and damn down also to hell it self those our opinions ( as they call them ) which are the only plain , pure , infallible way to eternal life , as that deformed monster ( so he calls it too ) which t.d. in the next page of this epistle , and in his first narrative , sprinkles into the name of quakerisme ; and i.o. ore , and ore , and ore again , in his contra fanaticos , into those of enthusiasme fanaticisme , nescio quid , and as many more as come at last to vere nihil , or truly nothing . t. d. next thou promisest thy reader ( and no more then thou sayst also shall be performed ) viz. a true account of the discourses ( so much of them as was argumentative , and pertinent to the questions under debate ) or , as 't is in thy title page , a true relation of what passed in three disputations , apr. . . . . between thy self and three qua. g.w.r.h. s.f. rep. hadst thou entitled thy true account , true relation , thus , viz. a false account , a false relation , thou hadst sav'd thy self the labour of one lye at least , for then thy title had been as true an account of thy book , as thy book is not a true , but a meer counterfeit account of the disputations ; but as 't is , thou hast told a lye more then ordinary , which hath its being ( as a lye ) from no other clause so much , as from that term of ( true ) thy work being ( as will appear ) not only a very broken and decrepid , but also a very untrue and false relation of those affairs it pretends to relate to ; so that by saying ( true ) here , thou hast spoken falsly ; whereas , hadst thou in stead of ( true ) said ( false ) thou hadst in so doing said no other then the very truth . in which true relation of those discourses ( as thou falsly callest it ) how well thou hast quitted thy self , as to such an honest and true account , as is here so faithfully promis'd , any honest man that was then present may see : when as . set aside thy own large and lax * answers . . set aside thy own confessed enlargements of the said lax , and still as mouldy , though new-mouled answers , with thy often long ( let me add's ) p. . . . . . . the whole of what passed from all us three , in all three of the discourses , which lasted about seven or eight houres apiece , is anatomiz'd well nigh all away , or at least epitomiz'd into so small a pittance , as may be read over , if set close together , in less space then the seventh or eighth part of one . and howbeit , thou wast dealt with , and measured back to from us , more by weight then by multitude of words , wherewith , for the ignorance sake of common people ( as thou sayst , whereby thou mayst see what a people thou hast , whose life lies more in thy words , then in christs works ) thou chosest to out-word us , as seeing thou must say somewhat ( as thou sayst , and no matter what say i ) or let us have all the talk , to the prejudice of the cause thou defendest ; yet were we not so far behind thee ; as to number , as thou seemest to set us in thy curtail'd account ( or else the more shame still to thy self and thine , who cried out so often to us , that we had all the talk , and took up all the time ) nevertheless , thou therein takest about nine parts of talk to thy self , and allowest us the tythe , then which thou knowst the qua. had rather have just nothing ; insomuch , that such as are more ready to believe thee , then truth , may well think by thy crowding us all up into such a corner of thy account , thy other tales to be true thou so often tellest for thy credits sake , concerning our mouths being stopt , our being silenced , our having nothing to say , our sitting down as astonish'd , and p. . . . as if it had been with t.d. as 't was with christ , when the scribes were silenced by him ; so that from that time forward none durst ask him any more questions , being so astonisht at his vnderstanding and answers , matth. . . whereas i , who was as likely to have seen it as t.d. discern'd no such thing among any of us , as being silenced , and having our mouths stopt from having any thing to say , save only that we were often silenced , and stopt from uttering that we ever had to say , by the wicked ragings of thy turbulent spirited people , who were ever foaming out their own shame , and casting up mire and dirt in a restle's manner till we were silent , when uttering any thing whereby they perceived thee likely to be hampered . * nor know i any of us that were astonished at any thing that was seen in t.ds. disputes , more then ordinary , save the bruitish stupidity of some of his d●ctrinal assertion● , which though , he sayes , he blushes not at himself , in his epistle to the second pamphlet , but is so far from being asham'd of that , as he two or three times own'd them audaciously before , so he there professes , if all the world could hear his voice , he would confess as his faith to this day ; yet i know some asham'd and astonisht at his un-saint-like sottishness therein , more especially those two or three , which i shall name only here , being el●ewhere to examine them ; viz. his holding it with t.r. that 't is a doctrine of devils , to preach a possibility of mens freedome from sin in this life , p. . his saying , that david , when he was guilty of adultery and murder , was not in a condemned state , but in a justified estate : that pauls own righteousness , and so all the saints righteousnesses inherent , are christs , and no other then what they receive from him , and he works in them , and serve , though not for iustification , and right to the inheritance , yet for sanctification , and to make meet for possession of it , and yet are no other then dung and filthy rags , p. . . as for any astonishment , unless it were at the grossness of these & other of thy absurd doctrines , and thy own impudent persistance in them , i know none in any of us . but 't is like t.d. thou wast concern'd on the account of thy prayer , thus to relate our mouths to be stopped : thou tellst the world , p. . that after a brief * account of the occasion of the dispute , and after a short prayer thou mad'st for a blessing on the meeting ( which , as short as it was , will be long enough ere it be heard , considering first , that god hears not sinners ; and secondly , that the things askt were not according to the will of god ; for as one of the two grand petitions of it was , that we poor wretches might be made to acknowledge the light in us to be darkness , which we never have done , nor shall do , i trust , any more then its utterly unfit we should , for we know its the eternal light of the lord iesus christ , and the only true light that leads to eternal life ; so the other was , that our mouths might be so stopt , that we might not say any thing : which two petitions , as we did not joyn with thee in thy putting up , so since thou sawst thou purst up in vain , there being no answer to them from god , 't was as vain for thee , in the account of thy prayer , to set them down ; whereupon , or else upon some other occasion , thou forbearst it ) which that it might not seem altogether unanswered ( as i hear say it was ) we have now and then such a showre as this sprinkled up and down , here and there , in thy account of the dispute , that we were silent , had nothing to say , sate down astonisht , and had our mouths stopt . and as i said above , if there were all we said , that thou sent down , ( though , as it stands in that cursory way thou renderst it in , it stands strong enough against thy pitteous pot-gun pellets , and poor replyes it might also seem true , that as thou prayedst , and mad'st intercession against us , so it fell out indeed , viz. that we were sometimes silent , having well nigh nothing to say ; for of about twenty houres conference that was held between us three , and t.d. in those three daies , nine or ten whereof may well be supposed to be ours , thou 〈◊〉 down to us as much as may be spoken over in about half one half hour , or in half a quarter ; and yet entitlest this thy diminutive doings , a true account of those discourses , a true relation of what passed ; and yet in all this , thou art so far from blushing , or being asham'd , that though g.w. truly and justly charg'd it on thee in his book , how thou wrongedst us , by laying down things in our names , which we never spake , and diminishing from our words , and making false ●o●structions : in the epistle of this second part to the same tune , thou impudently declarest , that howbeit thou art come upon the stage once more , not without a blush , yet 't is not as one ashamed * of thy doctrines , nor yet as one conscious to thy self of wronging the qua. in thy relation of the disputes between thee and them , either by laying down things in their names , they never sp●ke , ●r diminishing from their words , or making false constructions of them , which is enough well nigh , to make a modest man blush to hear thee say , in answer to g.ws. charge , and yet not blush at it , since its most notoriously evident to all that will see , when they may , thou hast both added to , and altered , by false construction , and diminisht from our words , to the absolute abusing of us to the world. altered thou hast , and faultred fonly in that very thing , wherein g.w. instances , as concerning justification by the righteousness of christ , and his spirits working in us , which the spirit calls ours , which thou const●uest , and so represent'st it to the world , as if i had said , we are justified by such works of ours , as are filthy rags , as we confess all our righteousnesses wrought one of christ are , but not any of those of the church , which christ works in them , as he did in paul after his conversion , which thou mayst blush at thy blasphemy , in calling filthy rags , as if christ vvrought a righteousness in his people , which is no better then an unclean thing ▪ ●ung , and filthy rags ( of vvhich more anon ) whereas i said only , by those good vvorks vvhich are vvrought by him in us , and vve vvork in his povver and spirit : did i say t.d. vve stand just before god by any unclean thing , by dung , and filthy rags ? 〈…〉 indeed the righteousness of christ , vvhich is imparted to the saints , and inherent in them , by vvhich they stand pure in gods sight , truly , and not suppositively only , dung , an unclean thing , and filthy rags ; but that is thy blasphemy who so rendredst it , but we know no such rotten , stinking , filthy righteousness that christ hath , either in himself , or in his saints . also thou falsly construest and misrepresentest , both g.w. and all of us , as if we asserted all men to have the knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdome of god , for we say not that all know them ( and we know that thou know'st them not ) but that the kingdome , or light , that only shews them , is in all men , so that thereby they may know the mysteries of it , though they do not . also thou most miserably misrepresentest my saying there are degrees among believer ▪ p. . as if i had meant by it ( according to thy own muddy , misty manner of meaning , and supposing in that , and many other matters ) that believers have a mixture of sin with their grace , and so ex falso suppositis , proceedest to make another meaning of thine own , which is none of mine , that some persons be justified , which never did fulfill the law personally , and rakest up an absurdity , and fatherest it on me , when 't is thine own , for i deny thy imagined mixture of sin with the saints graces , as a meer non-sensical saying of thy own , for grace and sin can no more mix together , then iron and miry clay , then light and darkness , then christs true righteousness , and the dung and filthy rags ( which thou supposest to be his also ) which can have no communion together , cor. . and i deny any men to be justified , or any of thy uncessantly ever-sinning saints , in whose persons the law is not fulfill'd by the power of christ. also , how guilty , or not guilty thou art found of laying down things in our names which were never spoken by us , in such wise as thou ventest them , and so of wronging us , by adding to our words ( to be-speak thee in thy own words of thy epist. to the second pamphlet ) let any understanding man peruse thy first , which occasioned g.ws. reply , and he will find , viz. that thou art charged not in falshood , but truly and justly by g.w. charged of falshood , in such passages as have many and credible witnesses ( if thou count thy own witnesses credible ) attesting them ; for i shall bring them against thee , even as thou thy self hast ranked them in thy own book , and stand to that very testimony they therein give , as to the tryal of this matter between thy self and me , which if it may be heeded more then thy own single testimony , against both thy self , and all them also , i shall do well enough , as to one of the archest accusations thou makest against me . to this purpose , consider all people , that t.d. on his bare head accuses me s.f. p. . . of his first pamp. of affirming and disputing it against him , that ovr good works , viz. ovr own righteousnesses , of which it was of old said , and we say the same now ( not intending by that term ovrs , any that christ works in us ( as t.d. does ) but those we have wrought out of him ) that they are filthy rags , are the meritorious cause of our iustification : and in the same place asserts the third question to be stated , affirmed , and prosecuted by me in tho●e very terms , viz. that ovr good works are the meritorious cause , &c. nevertheless the self-fame t.d. ( if it be one and the same t.d. who wrote the trifle call'd , a true relation of the disputes , and that remarkable narrative at the end thereof ) in p. . of the same foresaid pamphlet , to the confutation of himself , and in proof of his falsification of things in that other place , not only affirms it himself , but also proves it by his many credible witnesses ( of whom he sayes in his epistle to his second toy , they attest the truth , and in the epistle to his first thus , viz. the gentlemen ministers , and others in the margin , are a few ( of very many ) witnesses of the terms of the questions agreed to by the qua. and of other remarkable passages and matters of fact , who will free me from the suspition of a partial relator ) that the terms of the third question were these , viz. whether good works be the meritorious cause of our iustification , which ( quoth t.d. ) was expresly affirmed by them , witness in the margin , hen. oxenden , iob. boys , esq nath. barry , tho. seyliard , ch. nichols , ministers , which terms , say i , are quite diffeferent from the other : good works , which are only christs , without that term of ( ovr ) added to them , being one thing , and ovr good works clearly another especially ovrs that are filthy raggs : so what need further witness to prove t.d. to have added to , and altered our termes , and wronged us by misconstructions ? for the world has it under his own hand , which evinces him to have done so , yet he sayes to his reader . t. d. as to false construction of their words : if thou thinkest it worth while to compare my false and this mans ( g.w. ) true construction , either thou seest not with mine eyes , or thou wilt see they have no occasion to complaine . rep. to which say i , if he see with thy eyes indeed , then its like he may see no cause we have to complain of thee , for thy eyes are set the wrong way to see any evill in thy self , while they are not zach. as all israells , as one man , are towards the lord in his light , which only shews to the evill doer his evil deeds , but are set rather to watch against the children of it for evill , thy eyes are in tuts talpae , in alienis linces , blind at home , and quicksighted ( the contrary way ) abroad : if they were not , thou could'st never spie so many spots among them that walk in the spirit , and so few of those foul faults , that are found among thy fellow walkers after the flesh ; but if any readers be minded to see with their own eyes , and not thine , they 'l quickly see thee to be what thou art , with whose weak , sore , and sorry eyes , some of sandwich , whose seer thou art , do see more then with their own , so that if thou once say'st thou seest what thou but surmisest , and supposest , they ( as i.os. juniors are respectively to himward ) are extempore stupified into a satisfaction , that they ●ee the same , whether they see it yea or nay , so as to become iurats into thy rasn iudgment , and to sit down with no more then nil ultra quaero plebejus , our minister , teacher , or doctor sayes so , or so . but indeed as the papists have been long accustomed to drink all the wine they drink in their sacrament with their priests mouths , who impropriate that element wholly to themselves , so that when christ said drink ye all of this , they drink it all off , giving the poor people none , so our protestants have been so long accustomed to see with their priests eyes , that they have well nigh utterly lost their own , or at least the true fight and right use of their own ; and t. d. i perceive takes it for granted ( or else why saies he thou seest not with my eyes ) that his people should see with his eyes , understand with his understanding , take things in his sence , be of his mind , be moulded in their meanings after the image of his vain imagination ; but i say to you all ( o ye people of sandwich ) you must see with your own eyes , as the just must live by his own faith , or else ye will fall with your blind guide into the ditch , and if yee come to see with your own , you 'l see we have cause to complain of t. d.'s . both altering our words and adding to them : & though it be , as to quantity , but little thou hast added , yet as to quality it is so much as egregiously wrongs us ; howbest i must needs say so much for thee t. d. ( and that 's the best i can say to help thee with ) thy additions to our words are not by far so voluminous as thy ablations from them are ; thy rendition of our argaments is rude , ragged , & wrong enough in all reason , yet 't is not so much by way of additanent as ablation and detraction , ( as i shewed above ) our discourses to thee , whilst thy . own to us are repeated generally by the dative , are rendered mostly by the abla●iu● case , being rehearsed well nigh totally all away . i know thou say'st thou hast not diminish●d from our words , but that thy dimination of thy deceitfull doings , is but an addition to thy falshood , and no little aggravation of thy lies , for which thy unfaithfull dealings with us , and misrepresentation of those matters , as well as for many more misreports , into which the lying spirit hath spawn'd itself forth over ●undry pages of thy whole trifling pamphlet , and especially throughout thy narratives annexed at the ends of both thy babbles , so farr will thy pretended fence of a few gentlemen , and ( false ) ministers be from freeing thee from the suspition thereof , that all faithfull hearers of those discourses , and impartiall readers of thy ragged relation of them , will lay thee under the condemnation of not only a partiall relator , but of a very lya● also against the truth , as to matters of account , and not a few matters of fact , about which thou abusest and be●yest the quakers , both in thy cart accountative , and in thy much more notorious narrative pieces of business , which for severall remarkable follies of thy own therein expressed , are as much as any that i know ( ej●●dem farraginis ) meritoriously to be marked for a pair of white ones ( nigro carbone ) while they have a being under the sun , which after a few more breif animadversions on thy epistles , i am yet in hand with , i shall address to take some remarkable notice of . t. d. thou say'st thou hast followed thy antagonisi g. w. step by step , and omitted nothing that hath the least colour or shew of reason ( unless where thou makest a reference to thy former book to avoid repetition ) lest he should say that like a child , thou skippest what thou canst not read. only thou confessest thou art not able to match him at his belinsgate rhetorick , nor would'st thou with jonah ●e as hot as the sun that scalds thee . rep. thou may'st well say indeed in one or two senses thou followest him , for i with all the hast thou mak'st , and the best leggs of reason thy ridiculously short reply to him stands and runs on ; thou neither reachest nor overtakest g. w. much less 〈◊〉 get before or go beyond him , but art found as far behind him , in the understanding of the misteries of the gospell , the spirit and the world ●o come , as the wild bruit beast of the forrest is behind the naturall m●n , in the knowledge of the things of nature and this world ▪ poor vain man , thou wouldst be wise , and taking upon thee to teach those at whose feet'●would be thy wisdome much more to sit down and learn ; and so thou sayst to g. w. ● . . seeing you do not understand i le teach you ● in a matter wherein any , but the blind , may see by thy raw delivery of thy self in it , thou hast not half learnt thy lesson thy self , and wherein , as thou hast not a little need of it , so thou maist thy self possibly be taught a little otherwise by and by , in its proper place ; and thou are yet but as the wild asses colt ranging in the wilderness , snuffing up the wind of thy own wisdom ; yet there is a time werein thou must be taken , tamed and brought to beare , and made to see thy self to be as far short of g. w. as one in the fall is of him , that is risen again into the innocency . thou followest g. w. & the quakers , as the egyptians did israel , and as the dragon doth the woman cloathed with the sun , that beares the manchild christ iesus , breathing our malice , flinging out a stood of falshood , wherewith to cause her to be carryed away ; but thy charriot wheels drive on so heavily , that though thou persuest at the heels , yet thou wil● never reach further then the heel , which is all that the serpents head , which is to be bruised by her , avails to hurt , yea the very earth it self shall be made to help the woman , & to swallow up thy flood of lies and blasphemies , rather then they shall ere be of force for the fut●re , as they have been formerly , to overwhelm her . as for thy step by step , alas poor man g. w. makes such steps to his feet as are much too strict & streit for thine to tread and stand in ; where he is thou , in that nature and wisdome thou yet abidest in , canst not come ; there 's a gulf between ; whether he goes thou canst not follow him , unless thou loose thy life , as thou art loath to do , and dye with him , and christ , and all saints that death of the cross to thy own carnall will , which while in little better then that woodden way , wherein the papists prate of the cross of christ , thou in thy vain mind art prating about , thou knowest the power of not so much perhaps , as many , or at best little more as yet then the most of them ; so farr art thou from following g. w. who ( as paul did ) followeth christ , not in an outward , empty , apish way of imitation , or setting himself to do what he reads or heares christ did ( in which yet thou art farr short of following christ too ) but acting , speaking , moving , living , worshipping , walking in , by , and from the same light and spirit as christ did , which thou art ●o farr from walking by , that with i. o. and others , thou , for the letters sake , which yet thou errest from , rejectest it as no rule for thee to walk by . and as for that very kind of following him step by step thou meanest , who talk'st , as if thou had'st traced thy antagonist to a tittle , & left nothing of his book unanswered , thou hast rather an●wered little or nothing of it at all ; for as in thy second part to the same tune , there is fere nil dictum , quod non dictum prius , scarce ought said of that , which is set down , that is not in thy f●rst , and that is not already answered by g. w. so that t●y of a sheet and half , under which thou seekest to shroud thy self from the force of his reply , consists so much of references to thy q● . folly ( the folly of which foolish peice is by it self , as well as by us manifested to all well meaning men ) that thou mightest as well have spared thy paines of putting out any thing under that name of a book at all , and have said no more but so , viz. for a reply to g. w. i referr the wo●ld to the book of mine which g. w. 's● book is a reply to ; insomuch that , for all thy pretended care to prevent it , every one that is truly a man will judge that like a child , thou hast skipped what thou could'st not read , so as to make any reasonable reply to . as for billingsgate rhetorick its more found among the scribes that are scolding , scuffling , and scrambling for such petty businesses as muscles and cockels-shells , meer mouldring writings , externall texts , tritling transcrips , letters , pedl●ng points , syllables , triviall tittles and iota's , then●to the qua. qui nucibus faciunt quaecunque relictis , who if they do earnestly contend , it is for more substantiall matters , the faith , that was once delivered to the saints , the light , truth and spirit it self , ye priests despise , which were long before your letter , text and scripture ye , so scrabble for , was at all in being . and whereas thou sayest , , thou wouldest not ; i say , that whether thou wouldest or no , thou canst not be so hot as that light of the sun which now scalds thee , and thy fellow - scolders about the scriptures ; for the more ye foam , fret , fume , fight and labour in the fire of your own fury against it , the more the sun of righteousness arises daily , and shines out to the tormenting of you inhabitants of the earth , that have , in the dark night of your apostacy from the truth , slain , made merry over the witnesses of god , both within and without you : and the earth is filling more and more with the knowledge of the glory of the lord , as the waters cover the sea , and the angels who have the vials full of the wrath of god , are pouring forth of the same ; not onely upon the earth , sea , fountains , and seat of the beast , and the river euphrates , which hath been hitherto the chief fence of the great whore● of babylon , but also on the sun it self ; so that men , and ye men called ministers above all others , are to be scorched as with fire , by the great heat thereof , till ye rather kn●w your tongues for pain , and blaspheme the name of god ( as ye now daily do ) who hath power over these plagues , then repent from your deeds to give him glory : and though all ye , impenitent brood of the babylonish harlot , band your selves together as it were with one mouth to blow out the light , yet is it to as little purpose as if ye should go about to forbid the morning light from appearing , when it begins to spread it self upon the mountains . t. d. thou sayest , that which iob speaks of the thief , iob . . is true of the qua. if one know them they are in the terrours of the shadow of death . rep. that 's false of us , but true of your selves ; there is one knows both you and us , before whom your faces will wax pale , and gather blackness ere long , while we stand with boldness in his presence , our hearts not condemning us of such wicked designs and deceits , as are found among your selves . t. d. that we endeavour to hide our meaning by doubtful words . rep. i. o. ex. . s. . layes the same falsly to our charge ; but no wonder that thou t. d. accusest us of that , when as christ himself cannot scape thy censure in that kind , for as thou blamest and belyest us here , as endeavouring to hide our meaning in doubtful words ; so pag. . . pamp. thou sayest , it was an usual thing with christ to speak words of a doubtful fense , and that his meaning may be mistaken , when his words a●e taken in the most ordinary and literal sense , and so it would be if by ( every man ) we should understand him meaning , as he sayes , of every individual man indeed : how can we look thou shouldst clear us , who accusest him ? but if thou acquit him , cease from thy accusing us as guilty for that , which if 't were as surely , as 't is sure it is neither christs nor ours at all , but your own common course , and evil guise , must needs ( as thou t. d. handlest the matter ) conclude christ himself under the same guilt together with us ; but in truth , so far as * to peddle about the things of god , with words of an uncertain and doubtful signification , and when mens opinion is shameful and dishonest to dawb it over with deceitful covers and colours , not to speak it out ●penly & plainly , to mangonize it in speeches , sewed and patcht together on purpose , to darken their councel by words without knowledge , to beware of nothing more then , least they should understand and be understood , so far as to hide their councel by doubtful words , so far as to speak one thing and mean another , to make a shew in words , and intend no such matter as they make a shew of , so far as not to mean as men say , is a matter justly lyable to the censure of hypocrisie and dissimulation , we not onely clear god and christ , and the spirit , whom thou chargest as so doing ; while thou saist , p. . . pamph. the the meaning of their words cannot be as the letter doth report , it was usual with christ to speak words of a doubtful sense , p. . salvation is offered or tendered by god to such as he never intends it to , &c. p. . . pamph. but also are ourselves as clear from the guilt of it in the sight of god , as capable to make it good out of your own handy-works that your selves are the men , who are most deeply faulty in that particular . t. d. thou sayest , thou hopest the reader will not be byassed by our seeming humility , sith pride may be the root that bears that branch ; voluntary humility is the effect of being puft up by a fleshly mind . rep. true enough that pride bears the branch of meer seeming humility ; but among no men more then such as are used in rime , as the priest or clark reads a line at once to them , to sing to the tune of , o lord i am not puft in mind , i have no scornful eye ; when yet , for all that profession of humility , they are puft up , more proud and haughty scorners , and dealing in more proud wrath against the righteous , then such as never heard of such a thing as humility from a letter without ( as many heathens have not ) save what they have seen from the light of god and christ within themselves ; and among them that , under the lowly titles of ministers or servants ; mount up into the lordly titles of masters , reverend sirs , &c. under the disguise of servi servorum-dei , are indeed no less then masters of all mis-rule , and domini dominorum terrae . t. d. thou tellest us ( alluding to a saying of the bishop of al●f , concerning the protestants ) that if the qua. have orthodoxos mores , an orthodox conversation , yet they have haereticam fidem , an heretrodox or heretical belief . rep. herein thou shewest thy self to be as well as in other things one of the blind grand children of that blind papistical bishop , who can'st not discern how impossible it is that an orthodox true , right or good gospel conversation should proceed from an heretical or false faith : silly man , does not true faith purifie the heart , and life , work by that love which works no evil , give victory over the world with the lust thereof , & c ? and does any perfect purity of heart or life , any true love that works no ill , any victory over the world , any truly good manners , righteous works , holy actions , honest or godly conversation flow from an heterodox , unsound , untrue , dead , heretical , false faith ? is not that a dead and unprofitable faith ( and such is yours , who deny any perfect purging from sin in this life ) which doth not avail to the purging of the heart and life ? which overcomes not the world ? and is not all purity , and love , and victory over the worldly lust , &c. the necessary effect of a true faith , and of that only and no other ? and can there possibly be a bad , false faith , where there are truly good works , and an holy life ? in thy yielding here that the qua. have a right conversation , thou not onely givest thy self the lye in other places , where thou accusest them as wanting , not having so much as moral honesty ( as p. . . pamp. and p. . of the narrative ) but also ( to the proving thy own faith consequently to be false ) evincest the qua. faith to be true and not heretical , for good manners and a righteous wel-ordered conversation cannot flow from a false , or from any but a true , living , justifying , soul-saving faith or belief within ; aud if the heretical faith ( for so ye will needs call the true one ) bring forth the right life , and the orthodox ( for so ye will call your own fruitless one ) be seconded with , and shewed by a prophane conversation , then give me our heretical , and take you your orthodox belief unto your selves ; give me the faith that purifies , works no ill , gives victory over sin , and is both proved and perfected by good works ; shew me t. d. thy faith without thy good works , i will shew thee my faith by my works ; for where the life is right , the faith cannot be amiss , and while the life is crooked , corrupt and rotten , the faith is not pure , right nor sound : yet i know the clergy will needs count the qua. faith heretical , let their life be never so innocent , being themselves most in love with that faith in christ , if they could find it our once , that can allow and assure them of not onely salvation from wrath , when they dye , but while they live also a vain conversation , and no little liberty to sin . t. d. thou say'st g. w. layes the most innocent truths under the odious imputation of antichrists deceits . rep. if those of thy antichristian deceitfull doctrines with g. w. sees down , as thine , at the end of his reply to thee , * are the most innocent truths with thee , that we may be delivered for ever from embracing those as truths , shall be my earnest desire , and prayer to god , for myself and all men , to whom i wish deliverance from darkness and deceit it self , and from del●●sion and damnation : for sure i am the contrary to those ( however own●● by thee , because of the blindness of thy heart ) are the most innocent soul-●●ving truths of christ. t. d. thou tel'st thy reader thou trustest he will be confirmed in his bad opinion of the quakers . rep. here thou confessest thy opinion of the qua which thou seekest in thy first book to beget men to , and in thy second to confirme them in , is a bad opinion : out of thy own mouth , from thy own pen art thou judged as no minister of christ but an evill doer ( oh thou improfitable servant ) art thou sent of god ? are not all that are indeed sent of him ( as thou in word pretendest only to be ) sent to turn men from bad to good , and to confirm them in those good opinions ? yet behold t. d. trusts that the people to whom he ministers will being by his writings converted thereunto , be confirmed in their bad opinions of the qua. can more be done by any man in discovery of his own folly & nakedness ( not to say iniquity and wickedness ) to all men then is here by t. d. ? was there ever the like seen ( save among such ministers as are like to t. d. himself ) that a minister should confess to all the world the end of his endeavours to be the converting of his hearers and readers to bad , and the confirming them in their bad opinions ? yet t. d. thus writes to his reader ; i trust thou wilt be confirmed in thy bad opinion of the qua. herein t. d. thou justifiest the qua. as no such bad people as thou would'st render them to be at other times , for if they were so indeed it were not a bad but a good , because not a false but a true , and iust opinion to think so badly as thou speakest of them : but since thy own self stilest it a bad opinion of the qua. which thy care is to confirm men in , to think ill of them , it evinces them not to be such evil ones : for if men be bad indeed , it s a good opinion to deem them to be bad , and to think of them as they are ; yea because the devill is bad , a lyar , a deceiver , he gives the devill but his due , and does well , speaks and thinks well , who has that good and true opinion , that he is a wicked lyar and deceiver , and who speaks and thinks no better of him then he is : but if it be a bad opinion to think ill of a man , and to be of opinion that he is bad and naught , it must needs be that that man is good , else 't were not bad but good and just to judge him bad : the goodness and badness of every opinion , consisting in no other thing then in the truth and falshood of it respectively , and the badness of a mans opinion about another man arising ever from the goodness or innocency of that other man lie thinks badly of . indeed were the qua. such bad men as thou belyest them to be , and had'st thou said i tr●st thou wilt be confirmed in thy opinion of the badness of the qua. thou had'st then spoken according to what thou now evilly and falsly thinkest of them , and also the opinion , thou seekest to confirm men in about their badness , would be as good , and thy endeavours to confirm them in it as good as ours are , who , because the priests are generally vile and naught , do endeavour to bring people , who are beg●iled into the false and bad opinion of them , that they are good , and men of god , ministers of christ , and such like , when it s nothing less , to that good true and right opinion of them , that they are but ministers of mens making , and men of sin , and not of god. but ●●th the qua. are ( excepting such as are so named for comming among them , who are no more of them , nor owned by them , then all they are israel , that are called israel ) an innocent , honest , true● , iust , righteous , pure , peaceable people , and thou say'st its a bad opinion of them to think of them as ill as thou would'st have men , in that ( as caiphas the priest of old , not of himself , but as he was ordered unawars to speak more truth of christ then he himself was aware of ) thou hast said truly , and judg'd thy self as an unjust , and evill doer , in begetting in peoples minds bad opinions of good men , and justified the qua. as a generation of iust ones against thy will. t. d. thou say'st thou shalt blow away the dust the qua. raise with their feet . rep. throwing dust in the aire , casting mists ▪ and thereby blinding men from seeing the light and gospell , that 's the work of demetrius the silver smith , and his companions , who by the craft of holding up false worships had their wealth , and not of paul , & the qua. who are men of like occupation with him , these make no trade of preaching , much less of hiding the gospell , as ye do , but seek to publish it freely , and what in them lyes to make it without charge . t. d. thou shuttest up thy epistles to thy reader , with thy short prayers to this purpose , that th●se men ( the qua. ) may proceed no further , but that their folly may be manifested to all men , tim. . . and that we henceforth be no more children , tossed too and fro with every wind of doctrine , by the sleight of men , and cunning craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive , but speaking the truth in love , may grow up into him in all things , which is the head , even christ , is the earnest prayer of , thy servant for iesus sake , t. d. that thou maist not know the depths of satan as they speak , rev. . . but maist hold fast that doctrine which thou hast already , v. . is the prayer of thy servant in the work of the gospel , t. d. rep. thou art very full of these ejaculatory supplications , but thy ejaculations against the qua. be ever too short to enter into the eares of the lord of hosts , to obtain ought of that thou desirest : thou maist save thy breath , and keep thy darts to thy self , they do but reflect back upon thee , dream what thou wilt in the darke , as to thy audience and acceptance , we know , as well as he who e eyes christ opened heretofore , ioh. . to . that god heares not sinners , much less such as thou art , who not only beleivest thou maist , but even must sin also while thou livest , and so regard'st iniquity as to plead against those as broaching of the devils doctrine , who plead a perfect purging and freedom from it in this world . wert thou a worshipper of god , and doer of his will ( which none doth while he sins , though thou dreamest men may be in a justified estate while committing of adultery and murder ) he would heare thee , for his spirit would then guide thee to aske according to his will , and such things only as are well pleasing in his sight , and to make intercession for his saints , and not against them , as thou often dost ; and thou should'st know also as they do , that thou hast the things thou desirest of him , ioh. . , . but poore wretched man that thou art , it s now quite otherwise , thy sins lye at the doore , and shut out thy cains sacrifices from comming up as incense in the sight of god , so that thou fallest and loosest daily more and more for all thy prayers : the qua. both have and will proceed yet further , and by the wisdome of god in them will both the lyars & the ly●ns mouths be stop't at la●● , and thine and thy fellows folly be manifested to all men , as that of old iannes and iamb●s was , who in their corrupt minds withstood and resisted m●ses and the truth , tim. . . and while thy self , and all that heed the wind of thy doctrine , unless ye take more heed to the light within , shall be henceforth , as ye have been hitherto , as children tossed too and fro , and driven , like the weathercock , which way so ere the wind blowes , and turned about ( as the priest and his parish ever hath been ) into what posture , mould , or mouldy religion soever the times happen to settle in , the qua. who are stated on that corner stone ye builders refuse , on the su●● 〈◊〉 , the r●●●●f ag●s , christ the light of the world , and life of all that hear his voyce , will stand upright , and not fall , nor be wi●d●d about any more by the ●light of the shepheards , that have driven them from mountain to hill in the dark and gloomy day , nor catcht by the cunning craftiness , whereby the clergy lye in wait to deceive , but know ( not so as to own or approv● , yet so as to ● sc●●n and disprove ) the depths of satan ( as they speak ) and when thou and thine shall be forced to let go what ye have and hold● and hold forth for the doctrine of god by tradition from men , the qua. shall hold fast what doctrine they have already learnt from god himself , and shall , not in that thy complementall form of words , who ( as the old servus servorum d●i doth , when that he may be d●m●rus d●mi●orum is that he more desires ) subscribest thy self thy servaut in the work of the gospel for i●sus sake , while thou art indeed one of those master ministers that serve for filthy lucres sake against both i●sus and his gospel , but , denying your usurped mastership , be made able ministers of the gospel or new testament , not of your dead letter , but of the life and spirit , and speaking the truth in love , ( and not lies in envy and hypocrisie as ye do ) grow up into him in all things , even into his likeness , and the image , measure , and stature of the fullness of him , who is the head , even christ ; into whose likeness , though ye live like the devill here , ye look to grow in the world to come only , and not before . thus far as to thy petty pair of painted prologues , and as ( really ) pite●s , as ( seemingly ) pious apologies , or epistolary prefaces to thy two paultry pieces . chap. ii. now as to thy two more notorious narratives , whereby , as by the epistles on the one , so thy two butterflies are on the other side , as with so many wings born up and furnished to fly apace through the world , that is in love with lyes . i shall need to say the less to them , by how much some of the many lves that are laid down the●ein are already laid open to the view of all in his reply thereunto , stiled the devil ; 〈◊〉 i g●d by l.h. who together with my self and others by name , as well as all the people called qua. are most egregiously abused and belied therein . nevertheless since thou art so impudently obstinate in that course of prating , printing out of lyes , as to this day rather to justifie thy self , then ( which would farr more become thee ) to judge thy self as an evill doer in so doing , that all such as have not devo●ed themselves to be deluded by thy deceitfull doings , rather then to know the truth concerning the qua. in such matters , wherein thou as falsly as f●wly accusest them , may beware of beleiving thee any more , as many do , by implicit faith ; i shall give the world a further tast of that light , treacherous and lying spirit which speaks in thee , as it did in the false prophets of old , who blinded the peoples eyes with their many mis-reports from receiving the truth the true prophets told them , which lying spirit proves them sufficiently in whom it is ( how ere they may stile themselves so , as thou t. d. dost ) to be no true ministers of the gospell . report ( said the old lyars of ieremie ) and we will report it , raise but a lye , and wee 'l send it abroad farr and neer ; so t. d. fee p. . of his second narrative , appeares to have certain emissaries , and earewigs , that go out and gather what unsavoury materiall's they can rake out of the excrements of the qua. and such dunghilly stuff , and lyes , and bad constructions of good actions , &c : as are either made by himself , or made ready to his hand by his agents , he layes by him , and trussing his tales together into two tractacles or nasty narratives , as antickly annexes them as appendicular at the fagg-end of his other fancies ; bagg and baggage fit for nothing more indeed then to sollow in the reare of such pittifull polemicalls , as the two pieces are they are annexed to . t. d. thou stil'st the materialls of thy two narratives remarkable passages and matters of undoubted credit . rep. remarkable they are indeed , and so much the more by how much they are for the most part either apparently foolish , or flatly false , and where true ( as some few of them are ) either miserably mis-represented , wrested and perverted to wicked ends , or untruly used as premises , from whence to inferr thy most abominably false conclusions , and to confirm other men in bad opinions of the qua , whereupon for the truths sake , which thouseekest thereby to bring into contempt , i shall here remarke the most remarkable of them : and the rather first because in thy second title page thou so malepertly challengest any to disprove thee in the words of iob , saying if it be not so now , who will make me a lyar , and make my speech nothing worth . . because even in this very 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or nick of time , wherein my enervation , or discovery of the nakedness of thy two narratives is but now newly come under my hand and pen , in order to its passage through the press , whereat i write this , i am presented with a third printed toy of thine t.d. to the same tone , stiled the lye returned to luke h●ward , or a vindication of thomas danson minister of sand●i●h , from the imputation of belying the quakers , wherein thou sayst l. h. in his , called the devils bow unstringed , is impudent in denying severall matters of fact charg'd upon himself , and others of his perswasion , in thy two naratives , and in representing thee the publisher thereof as a forger of lyes : in which shuffling trifle , or sorry shift of halfe a sheet ( for 't is nor more , nor better ) of ( meer wast ) paper , as closely as thou conceivest thou hast lapt and laid thy self up as in a bed of lavender , and in thy vipe●ous hissings , and lyings against the light lyest hid ( velut anguis in herba ) among such silly seers as see with thy eyes , yet thy new bed of lyes is too short for thee to lye long at ease upon , and that half sheet of thine is a covering too narrow for thee to wrap thy self in from the wrath of god , as well as too ragged , and tottered , and torn , and thin ( if 't were a whole one ) to shelter thy shame from the sight of such as see by the light of christ , who view thee in all thy venomous ventings of thy malice through the thickest vail thou seekest to shrowd thy self under : nor will thy certificates obtained , & procured by thy self & published under the hands of thy pair of ( iohns ) viz. io. laigneile , and io. davis of dover , one of which i love so well as to tell him that if ( as the proverb is ) he play not iack on both sides 't will be the better for him ; nor of thy pair of unminister like , mr. williams , russel● and wingfield , who will never win the field with lyes against the children of the truth ; nor oft' other thomas , viz. thy part-taker t●omas morris , who is as very an infidell toward christ disciples , till he see and feel our testimonies to be undeniably true , as thy self , and all the three other thomasses , that are so ready to sweare , what ere thou sayst ; nor the self contradicting testimony of thy trustee mr. vinter minister of couewold ; nor any other of thy despicable disproofs so moderate the matter , but that thou wilt appear to be a foster-father to those forgers of lyes , who have brought thee into the praemunire of publishing , to thy own shame , what their heads have hatched , and their pates prepared for thy pen , and put upon thee to p●int and publsh in thy folly to all the world , as will by and by appear in the examination of each of thy lyes , as thy lye laid down in thy last narrative . t. d. as to thy tale of l. hs. sending his horse and man for me to be a● a d●scou●se appointed between him and w. russell a priest , and that his man was seen to come out of dover on his horse overnight , and myself s●●n to ride into the town the next morning upon the same horse ; which story thou tellest for truth , with such confidence too , that besides that forementioned common epethite thou givest to all thy lyes , viz : they are of undoubted credit , thou here addest that it was manifest i was se●t for on purpose , and that in denying it we ly● and have not so much morall honesty as to speak truth in matters of fact , and such like . rep. i here as l. h. hath also done , declare against that manifold piece of na●ra●ive so p●mpu●ly predicated , as a most a●rand manifest lye in every inch of it , as having no truth in it from the head to the t●yl , that i can find , f●om one end thereof even to the other ; for neither did l. h. send his horse or man at all for me o're night ; nor did i ●ide into d●ver on l. hs. horse next morning , but on a black h●●se , plain enough ( if these lya●s had not been blind ) to be di●cerned from l. hs. white one , and that in the afternoon too ; neither was the discourse between , or appointed between l. h. and w. r. but e. b. and w. r. nor did e.b. send for me , but a letter to me only , not knowing of my comming , but desiring my answer only ; neither did i know at all that any discour●e at all was to be till i came into the town ; nor was there such a word spoken by l. h. ( in my hea●ing ) that he would now leave the discourse to me ; nor did l. h. so much as by desire engage me in that di●course ( though some few things i said in it ) any more then he engaged me to come to those disputes at sandwich , which ( saving thy lyes in that particular ore and ore againe repeated ) was just no way at all , though hearing of a dispute to be there , i was there with other friends : by all which remarkable passages , whether thou hast not marked out thy self , and thy tal●-bearers more then the qua. to be men that have not somuch morall honesty or to speak truth in matters of fact , let all true men iudge ; nor is all that in thy last half sheet of any validity to disprove this , which i say and averr to be the truth as in the sight of god , who will judge between you lya●● and us , who as little con●cience as thou sayst we make of lying , have herein said the very truth , and shall be beleived against thy tattle , notwithstanding the sleeveless testimonyes of w●lliam russell and th●mas morris , whose certificate , which thou ●ettest to put an end to the contest , conclude nothing to the contradicting of what 's here said by me . and thus into the pit of thy own digging for us art thou fallen thy self , and in the same labo i●uh of lyes , wherein he lay turking for the innocent , hath the lyar lost , and left him elf not a little in the lurch . t. d. thou tellest a tale that a dying qua. at dover , said , he exp●cted salvation onely by his good works , and not from christ : in witness of which thou bringest io. davis minister of dover . rep. thou hadst abused io. davis , as grosly as thou dost thy self ( but that i see by his vnderhand testimony inserted in thy half sheet , and his non-complaining of thee , he is willing enough to be so abused by thee , and so i am the less willing to vindicate him , sith volenti non fi● i●i●●ia ) by offering in thy narrative to summon him in print , as a witness of that , which he himself had no otherwise than by hear-say from another ; for hereby thou expo●est i. da. together with thy self , to the iust censure of ignoramus , whilst it s well known to all ( save such as either are , or else , in enmity to the truth , are free to be counted idiots ) that as in f●o dei & verae ecclesiae , he is no true minister , or witness of the word of god , who stealing his testimony , and the words he speaks out of the writings of the true prophets , declares what himself never saw , felt , nor handled of the word of life , so vel in foro hominum , even before men in their earthly courts of iudicature , that man would be deservedly cast forth with shame , as no lawfull witness against a living man there p●esent , much less against a dead man not capable to speak for himself , who should testifie it as an undoubted truth that he spake treason , and from thence accuse all that mans kindred also to be traytors , and yet confess he was no ea●ewitness of his words , but only heard a third man say somewhat to such a purpose : and how iohn davis can be such a competent witness to the world of the words spoken by the dying quaker , as thou set'st him down for , or any more then a presumptuous intruder into , or talker of what he hath not heard , but only heard of , my eyes , which are not so dim , but that i can divine the divines to be in the dark , & to divine lyes to each other , do not fee ; howbeit let every one see not with my eyes , but with his own , as to the case in hand . but i. d , when he was backbiting the qua. to thee in that tale , and tickling , and scratching thy itching ears , which ( as false tongues do ) love lying words , and feed on meer fables more then truth , thought ( perhaps ) as little as thou did'st of the likeliness of the quakers printing , to be brought so openly on the stage about it , as now he is , and that with so much the more shame , by how much he seemes to have play'd b●-peep between both partyes , and by that his second hand testimony to have ●erved two contrary turns at once , viz. l. hs. and thine too ; or else its like he would have kept his hea● say to himself ; but now he is justly left of the lord to manifest himself to be one , that would fain seem to hold with the hare , though he runs with the h●und open mouth at her to devoure her , having ( since he seemed to side with l. h. against thee ) in his last testimony obtained by thee , and obtruded upon the world , made himself obvious to the view , of all to be a sidesman with thee in thy viperous spirit against us , and one who would ( balaam-like ) divine us into the denomination of papists , if he could tell how ; but as such concurr●rs as shew their teeth much ; seldome bite very deep , so 't is now ; the curst cow's have short hornes , and your uncertain certificate can stand but for a cypher at most , that signifies nothing , but that ye would ●ay something in disparagement of the qua. if ye could tell what . something it seems was affirmed by some body , yea by the qua. brother , who ( as their own-brethren usually do , isa. . for christs name sake ) . hated tho●e that hear gods word , and tremble at it , and are therefore in scorn called qua. to such an effect , as if the dying qua. had said he look'd for sa●vation by his own works , and not by christ ; wherein , if he doth not ( as many in d●ve● and sandwich have done as bad ) pu●posely bely his decreased brother for the sake of his own malice to the qua. yet i know he did ( at best ) as much mistake him , as t. d. mistakes , & either blindly or maliciously mis epr●sents me to the world as a looker for iustification without christ by my own works , which i have long since denyed as dung for those that christ works in me ; for howbeit i shall not here meddle point blank to prove a negative ; yet thus much i can say in disproof of your hasty affirma●ve ; i my self , who know his principles to have been no other then to expect salvation by christs works in him only , and not his own , was with that said dying qua. in the time of that sickness , whereof he died , and in as deep d●scourse with him ( i believe ) as that his meer fleshly brother was , who hath so abused him ; yet i heard him utter as nothing at all to that effect , so not a little to the contrary : and so i leave this your tale of a tub ( as i found it ) with the bottom out , to take place in such hearts as are given ore to strong delusion to beleive your lyes that they may be damned , for no entertainment will it find among such as receive the ●●ve of the truth that they may be saved : yea , as thou sayst , in p. . of thy half shee● , of that figment of your own , viz. that i was sent for t● dover by l.h. to the dispute with w. russell , that i came on other business will hardly be beleived on the word of a qua. & : so say i in thy own words of both this , and that non entity of your own creating , and of william wingfields m●srep●●sentation of l. hs. words also , viz. that those words were spoken by l.h. as w.w. sayes ( confdering the three testimonies that his words were otherwise ) and those also by the dying qua. as thou ●et'st them down , upon the best evidence thou giv'st of it , from either the qua. fleshly brother , or thy spirituall brother i. d. will hardly be beleived upon the word of such an envious quareller with the qua. as thou art , by them that know how little conscience that sort of men ( among whom thou art not the least ) make of lying against them , and against the truth . t. d. another story thou tellest of a qua. that came into the savoy church and made such a dreadfull noyse , as seemed to be of the devill in him , and so sadly afrighted the people , that some ran one way , some another to secure themselves from the danger they apprehended was near them , and necessitated the minister then preaching , whom thou callest mr. hook to hold his peace as witnesses , of which the said mr. and mrs. hook are cited . rep. a palpable evidence ( if the devill had been in him as truly as ye suppose it ) how little of god is in your christian congregations , and in your churches and ministers , that the devils bellowing out of the mouth of one unarmed man could make the minister hold his peace , and affright and put to flight his whole church before his face : who so hearkens unto christ dwells safely , and is quiet from feare of evill ; he is not afraid of evil tidings , his heart is fixed trusting in the lord ; he is kept in perfect peace , his mind is sta●d on the lord ; he keepeth himself that the wicked one toucheth him not ; he resisteth the devil , and makes him flee , and gives not place to the evill one : but a token rather it is that the power of god was of a truth , in the man , who ere he was , in that the d●vils trembled in the wicked , whom he possesses , & were so astonished at his presence , for hic murus abaeneus — nil conscire sibi nullapallescere culpa ; as this is the brazen bulwark , and impregnable fort that true saints have such rejoycing in , as all the devills in hell cannot impeach , the testimony of their conscience , that in simplicity and godly sincerity they have their conversation toward god and all men , so the sinners in sion are afraid , and fearfulnes● surprises the hypocrites , and being conscious to themselves , that no good belongs to them , they wax pale at the sence of their own iniquities , as if the devill were comming to fetch his own ; the name of the lord is a terrour to them , a dreadfull sound of danger is alwayes in their ea●es , and they are magor-misabib fear round about , and a terrour eternally to themselves , so that they are in great fear where no feare is , as to any outward appearance , or occasion of it , much more when the lord himself begins to roare out against them , and thunder upon them out of sion , who●e ●o●ce is as terrible among the sinners , as the devills is contemptible among the saints , yea their own evills per●uing the wicked , they flee some●imes when no man persues , but god being in the midst of the congregation of the r●ghteous , they are ever as bold as a lyn. t. d. thou tellest of a woman , one mary todde a qua. that at the bull and mouth , while her friends were speaking , pulled up all her cloaths above her middle exposing her nakedness to the view of all in the room . rep. i see if thou canst not get it by hook , thou wilt get it by crook , if thou canst , but thou gettest nothing against us by either ; for as the tale that is testified by thy master and mistriss 〈◊〉 makes as little against us to thy purpose , were it as perfectly true , as it s probably false in some part of it at least ( for i cannot learn that there is at lord. such a one as wil● : 〈◊〉 ▪ that is owned as a friend among the qua. ) so this 〈…〉 thou 〈◊〉 the qua. in above , was done by one that was a rom●● ( and not a qua. ) whose r●nting abominable practi●es the qua. whom thou callest her friends , are more at e●mity with then thy self ; nor will thy 〈◊〉 in the margin thy eye-witness t. cresset ( c●●rurgion ) cure and s●●v● thee from the ●ust censure of a false accuser of the qua. to whose score thou w●●nes● down all the rudeness , that by the rabble of their and the truths enemies is , in absolute hatred of both them and it , acted ever and 〈◊〉 in their assemblies . and albeit thou ●●innest over this thy 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 business in thy last 〈◊〉 piece of work of half a 〈◊〉 , by the certificate of iohn 〈◊〉 , as thou didst bolster it up before by th. cressets testimony in thy narrative , which i. lag● ( as far as his envious assertion will assure ) assures thee , who very con●●dently ●akest on thee to assure the world thereupon , that the quak. at lond. acknowledge the said m. 〈◊〉 to be one owned and 〈◊〉 by them , i here contrariwise affirm ( whatsoever some certain qua. that under that name shrowding themselves to do mischief to the truth , as the false brethren did of old , by whom paul was in peril , might say to i. l. ) that the qua. in london do disown and deny both m. t. and her ill carriage in that particular : so that instead of mending thy ill matter , thou hast but made it worse , and redoubled the lye , thou wouldst have lickt the lyars whole of . t. d. thou tellest of a qua. that at alderman-bury , on a lords day , while the psalm was singing , gat up into the pulpit with his hat on his head , and serting his breech upon the cushion , fell to sewing . rep. a great piece of business , for a man to be so sharply censured for as he was who did that . our princes and priests in these dayes have forgot that the lords prophets of old were moved to do as strange matters as that , or any other thing that is done in the spirits motion in these dayes by the qua. as a sign to a wicked and adulterous generation , when the lord , being wearied with the multitude of their sins , began once to loath their most solemn sacrifices , and to defile all the coverings of their idols , and to slain the pride of all their fleshly performances , and to 〈◊〉 no pleasure on their best observations and oblation●s , and to snuff at their sacred services as at a stinking smeak coming up into his nose , and to turn the songs of their temples into howlings , and to cause children to oppress them , and very women to rule over them , and to stir up the babes and the base ones , to behave thems●lves boldly against the honourable and antient , and to cut off both the head and the tail of a people , even the antient and honourable rulers , which are the head , and the prophet that teacheth lies , which is the tail , and to spread●dung upon their faces ( and that 's more than a mans breech upon a pulpit pillow ) even the dung of their s●lemn meetings , and to sweep both one and t'other away together , and ( in short ) to throw no less then shameful spuing upon all their glory . doth this offend you , that the servants of the lord are now made signs so far as to sit covered in your mass-houses , in reproof of your singing davids psalm with s●uls spirit , in such meeter as i. h.t.s. q. elizabeths fidlers have moulded them into , and in ●uch manner as some priest , clark or sexton sayes them lineatim , by a line at a time before you , o lord i am not puft in mind , i have no scornful●ye , all ●he night lo●g wash i my bed , and much more to the same tune ; wherein most of your people mock god , and sing more lyes to him than t●uths , whilest they are as hough●y and sc●r●ful as ere they can look , and o far from making their beds swim , and their eyes gush out with tears for sin , that they rather are both full of daily adulteries , and defiled with nocturnal uncessant uncleannesses and pollutions ? does this offend you , that a man should sit and few upon a cushion , in rebuke of you● sottish igno●ance , who limit the lords day ( which is an everlasting holy sabbath or ce●ation from all mans own words , works , thoughts and pleasures , typi●ed by the seventh day , which ye now confe●s is no more holy than another ) within the narrow lists of one day of the seven , and not the seventh neither , which god instituted for a time , but the first onely , as if ye were then onely , and on the fasts of your own appointment for a day bound to serve god in some certain outward shewes , and then at liberty to serve lust , self , flesh , sin and the devil all the week beside ? doth this offend you , that as an ecce signum , any true prophets tayl should come neer the s●ft cushion , over which the prophets that teach lyes who are the tail , lean and lye , talk for money , and do their business in order to the getting in of their gain from their quarters , and follow their calling twice o● thrice a week , and work upon their t●ade , which ( unless they would come freely to give what freely they have received , and speak more truth than they do ) is not half so honest as that of a taylour sewing of a garment ? do these small matters ( which yet as despicable as they are in your own eyes , are of more moment to you than ye are aware of ) offend and occasion you to stumble ? ( o ye priests ) what if ye should ●ee men made to go naked , and sit naked upon your plush-pulpit-cushion ? and annoy them with very dung before you , for a sign to a seemingly saint-like seed of serpents , whose own righteou●ne●s , which they count gain , is as very dung in the sight of god ? such a one would be a greater stumbling-stone in thy eyes t.d. and of thy offended fellows ; yea , behold ye despisers , and wonder , and perish , such works and strange acts as these is the lord working in your dayes , the mystery of which ye can in ●●wise believe , though ever and anon done in the sight of ds ; yea , how have many been pressed in spirit to pass naked into your mass-houses , and streets in cities and towns , and to do what ye deem defilement , as signs from the lord , to shew the nakedness and stark-stinking shamelesness of this most impiously impudent and impenitent generation of professing priests and people , who are apparently as rich● , landic●a her●self in letter , and increased with goods , and needing nothing of christs own councel & light in their own consciences , not knowing th●mselves to be poor , and wretched , and miserable , and blind and naked : and yet all this and much more no more than was done at the lords command of old by the prophet , which was a fool , and the spiritual man , that was mad , in the eyes of the blind priesthood of that age , wherein he lived ; witness isaiah , who went naked and bare-foot three years , for a sign and wonder to egypt and aethiopia , isa. . and ieremy , who brake a bottle in tophet , in token that the lord would make iudah as tophet , jer. . , , . and put bands and yoaks on his own neck , and sent yoaks to several kings , as a sign of the slavery they should come into , jer. . and ezekiel , who was dumb , and bid to eat and drink with quaking and trembling , to mingle his bread with mans dung , and made to mingle it with cow dung in the sight of israel , as a sign of that defiled polluted bread they should eat among the gentiles , and to burn a third part of his hair , and smite a third part of it with a knife , and scatter a third part of it with the wind , and bind a small part of it in his skirts , to shew the famine , sword and dispersion of israel , and salvation onely of a few , ezek. , c. . c. . and dig a hole in his house , and remove his stuff in their sight , eze. . and hosea , that was bid to love an adulteress , and a harlot . t. d. another example ( as thou callest it ) as remarkable as this , thou sayest was in christ-church , octob. . . where on a day of publique thanks-giving the parliament , l. major , aldermen , common councel , and officers of the army being met together to hear dr. homes & mr. caryl , appointed by the parliament to preach before them ; two qua. made a great disturbance in the very presence of authority . rep. by the humane autho●ity ( it seems ) of the parliament themselves two ministers , of mans making , were appointed to preach before them , and by the divine authority and power of god himself , two of his sending were appointed and pressed in spirit , to bespeak them in his name to another purpose then that of those of their own chusing ; for whereas they had chosen to themselves such as should prophecy to them not truth , nor right things , but deceits , and such smooth things , as were pleasing and suitable to their dainty dreams , thanksgiving-thoughts , sweet sacred solemnities , fained festivities , vainly hoped , self-promised unities of that joyful day , the lord had chosen seers , who saw beyond all this , and divined a storm through all the●e their idol-coverings draw near upon them : but to these seers and prophets they said ( as the same seed did to the same sort of seers , whom god sent of old to a rebellious people , lying children that would not hearken to the law of the lord ) see not , prophecy not ; soft and gentle , and not right and rough things are agreeable to to the duty of this day : the qua. speech , the words whereof i have set down in the margin , * referring both thee t.d. and the sandwich doters on thy dowby-doings , to a printed sheet ●old by tho. simmons , at the bull and mouth , stiled , the prophet approved by the words of his prophecy coming to ●ass , where ye may read the residue of the message from the lord , in that place of the popish priests consecrating , falsly called christ-church in london on that day , was deemed such a disturbance as was punisht with an orderless new-gate imprisonment by the multitude at the present , & ratified by the rulers order , when they were more at leasure from their voluptuous feasting ; which iniquity of appointing men to preach to them in their own wills and time , whether god appoint them , yea or nay , of despising the true prophets true words , and trusting in the fraud of the fulse ones , and in their own perversness and staying thereon , isa. . , , . was then unto them , as it ever was to the same generation , as a breach swelling out in a high wall , whose breaking came suddenly as at an instant ; for by the th of the same month they , who were so hand in hand against righteousness , were turned tail to tail against each other for their wickedness ; yea , the lord spared them not , but brake them as the breaking of a potters vessel that is broken in pieces ; so that in the bursting of those brittle potsheards of the earth , there is scarce found a sheard of so much u●e as to take fire from the hearth , ' or water withal from the pit . now as to the very great distu●bance thou sayest they made , this is but the old tone of the tithe-taking , tide-turning , tune-serving , truth-belying teachers , and the wonted out-cry of that noun-adjective ministry thou belongest to , that cannot stand , nor subsist of themselves , without leaning for encouragement , defence , assistance and maintenance to mee● humane laws , to prop them up in the propagating of their meer humane gospel ; who , like the loud-lying women , that having no better shift than to cry whore first , are ever hideously bellowing out against the qua. to the tune of heresie , heresie , disturbance of the ministers , to the magistrates ; so that if any qua. come quietly in , and speak , or do but ask that reason , which every christian is bound to be ready to give of his hope to every one that asketh him in meekness and feare , they strait call out to have them punisht , as the iews neither did , act. . nor do at this day ; which said ministers being in propriis talpae , in alien is linces , are more sharp-fighted towards the good behaviour of one qua. quietly questioning with them , or saying any thing to them soberly that is of god , then the misdemeanour and tumultuousness of twenty of their own unquiet spirits , stirred up by the devill to call us r●gues-faces , quaking doggs , to break windows , and bring in d●ggs to fight , and such like beastly and bear-like behaviour in our solemn assemblies , till they are wearied with their own pains towards us , and our patience towards them under it , as well while we are speaking , as we are moved of the lord , in our own allowed meetings , as in theirs : witness their leading a bear through the place , where the qua. were preaching publickly at hith : and also the rudeness of some of those that are under thy own tuition t.d. at sandwich , and belonging to the flock thou there feedest , or rather feedest on ; who when g. f. e. b. my self and many others were publickly met in quiet in a place of our friends procuring , shrew stones and gunpowder squibs that fired among us , not so as to move us to cry out to the rulers of disturbance , yet so as to give good occasion to the lord to permit ( though ye forget it ) a sad fire to fall out within the town , no longer after , then the next morning . thus ye men of sin make men of god offenders for a word , and hate them , as of old they did , that reprove sin within the gate ; so that when any such stirrs arise upon occasion of the gospels preaching , as did in the prophets and apostles days , which the lords messengers now are no more accessary to , as causes , then they then were , it s still laid to the doore , and put on the score of truth , and the tellers of it , which , because none else will own it , must hear it , till against the foul mouth'd beast the lambs innocency be cleared as the light , which till then may truly say of all mischief that falls out , where he utters his voyce , cum nemini obtrudi potest itur ad me : the lambs cau●e is better then the wolfs , when charg'd by him for troubling the water with only drinking at the fountain , but the wolfs teeth are sharper then his , and therefore the innocent must be devoured . and whereas to such like tales as thou hast told , as abovesaid , thou prefixest the conclusion thou inferrest in these words , viz. t. d. what affronts these wretches offer to the worship of god is notoriously known . rep. i ●ay your parish worship is not so truly the worship of god , as 't is true that ye so call it ; but that of the qua. who worship him in spirit and truth in the inner parts , which ye are out of , which those poor wretches your parish people are , by your lyes , instigated to offer such abominable affronts to , as bea●ings , buffetings of men in , and draggings of them o● their own meetings ( as are notoriously known all the land over ) is the true worship of god indeed , which ( except ye repent in time o ye priests and parish-people , and own the truth ) 't were better for you and them that ye had never been born , then offer such affronts to , as ye do : but full well may ye offer affronts to our worship when ye stick not to do the like to your own rule of all worship , even to that ye call the word of god , for if the scripture , which is a true writing of it , were as truly the word of god , as ye say it is , ye bawlk not , as occasion is , to do despite to that , witness the ungodly guise of those giddy heads about westminster , who when by g. f. holding out the bible to them , they were askt in the mid'st of their mad hurlings of mud and kennell dirt ( as they mostly do upon the qua. in their meeting there ) to this purpo●e , whether they would do such despite unto the scripture , which they say is their rule and the word of god ? ceased not to be dirt that their word of god , any more then they did from dirting him , who held it out to thorn . t.d. another of thy remarkable passages , in the first narrative , is of one of our friends , who by a meer mistake , charged one of your ministers , peter domsell , who was cleare , instead of another , who was guilty of it , as slandering me falsely with taking pay from the pope . rep. which mistake of one man for another , though confessed freely and publickly by our friend ( which is more then for your many flat lyes against us , we can expect ever to extract from you ) and thereupon ( with much ado ) professed by you all fit to be never more mentioned to him , yet is not only reckon'd up by thee in print , p. . . to the shaming of him , if thou could'st , but also to thy own shame of a single slip ●gregiously multiylyed by thy lies about it , into severall unsingle ●ordid shifts , and double dealings which thou falsly fatherest , and fainedly fast'nest on him and me too . t.d. first thou say'st he pretended to say that he said ( from the lord ) as one immediately sent of him so to speak , and yet was mistaken as to the right man : whereupon thou concludest the qua. as far from infallability in doctrine , as in matter of fact . rep. which is but a silly conclusion of thine , if it had so been , and contrary to thy own principles ; for if christ knew not iudas to be a devil , and so cho●e him for his minister upon that mistake , as thou ( little less then bla●phemously ( intimatest p. . for in truth iudas was no devil when christ chose him , and yet christ was infallible in doctrine , though ( secundum te , who ignorantly so fanciest ) ignorant in that fact , why may not a mistake in a matter of fact stand now with infallibility in doctrine ? t.d. thou sayst i holp him with a ly● , saying he said not ( from the lord ) but ( in the feare of the lord ) so that the people then houted at me . rep. for all the then 〈◊〉 , and the still stout standing of thy rout of rude ones to the contrary , i still say the same ( viz ) that he ●aid not in thy pretended phrases of ( from the lord ) or ( as imm●d●ately sent of him ) but ( in the feare of the lord ) which may be consistent with the mistake of one person for another , or else tell me t.d. ( for ad hominem i now urge ) how isaac mistook iacob for esau , and paul wot not that was the high priest , when he term'd him a whited wall ? yet what a stirr , what a ditty , what a deale of do mak'st thou in aggravating that diminitive business , till , by the rash rendition of it , thou render thy self as ridiculous , as p. d●msell himself , whom it most concern'd , then did , who ( like one that to kill a gnat , which makes his nose itch , strikes so hard as to make it bleed ) was so over obstreperous and frivolously fervent in his own defence from the offence of that fly ( and more would have been , if for sham● ye had not stopt him ) that he offended himself more otherwise , by stirring up thy light-spirited people to laugh more at that folly , which then fell from himself , then to lament the innocent injury , which befell him as from us . t.d. thou sayst , that the reader may see how great a stress we lay upon small matters , thou wilt tell him a true story ( which perhaps may move his laughter ) that a kinsman of d g. offering to salute her , she went two or three steps back with these words . i have renounced the devill and the flesh long since , prethee , forbear that custome of the world : and that these things thou thought'st good to add ( at the desire of some worthy persons ) that the world may take notice not only of the wickedness , but of the absu●dity of these peoples ( the qua. ) principles . rep. this last part of thy first narrative is not a more true , then strange story , & as ridiculously related , as it is a ridiculous relation : what if thy kinswoman d. g. refused thy offer to salute her at thy hou●e , because she could not conscientiously close with thee * in the carnall course of that customary complement , which in the world it self weares out now too , and begins to savour ( ●o far is it from the christian ) plus coloni , quam aulici , more of the clown , then of the courtier ? must thou needs be so obstreperous in print against her for it ? thou dost it to shew how great a stress we lay on small matters , but thou shew'st indeed how great a stress thou lay'st upon the small matters , and how bad a construction thou puttest upon the good intentions of thy own kinsfolks , when they are ( as thou ironically term'st it p. . ) of that perswasion of quakerisme : thou dost it to move thy reader to laughter at her and our wickedness and absurdity , but if he be one whose heart is not among the wise in the house of mourning , but among the fools in the house of mirth , he will , with laughter thereat , take much more notice of thy own . thou thoughtest good ( though thy thoughts in it were not good ) at the desire of some worthy friends to do it ; a worthy peice of business indeed , like thy self , and tho●e worthy persons , who desired thee so to do , to add at the end of thy renowned narrative of remarkables , as it were to pin the basket to bring up the reare , and , as some weighty substantiall matter , to adde weight to the rest of that windy , frothy , husky , chaffy stuff , and matter of story , with which thy book is abundantly stored . had'st thou been wise , thou might'st have learnt of thy kinswoman to do the same that was undertaken for thee long since ( viz. ) to forsake the devill and all his works , the vain pomp ; and glories of the world , so as no more to follow , nor be led by them ; but now in this thy printed publication , and so iack-pudding-like a passage at the very tayl of all thy merry matters and lying tales of the qua. to move thy lewd , more risible , then r●asonable animals to laughter at them , thou hast rather vented thy own vanity to the advantage of the truth , thou treatest against , then disparag'd it , having acted herein much below that gentility , civility , courtesie , common humanity and ingenuity , that becomes one that calls himself a kinsman , and would be counted more then a common christian , by not so much finding a great fault where there is none at all , as a wrong rendring of that to the reader , as some gross v●ll in d. g. which he , to whom christs cross is not yet a riddle , will read to be as great a good , as thou mak'st a gross evill of it . of so slender credit is truth among its foes , that if the least fault be among its freinds , it shall be sooner found , then find forgiveness on confession ; if it be but a weakness , or mistake of one man for another by night , it s magnified into some impardonable wickedness , or mighty mischief ; if it be but a mole hill , that every wise man would step over , and none but blind guides , and their giddy guided ones , who strein at the saints gnats , and swallow their own camells , can well stumble at , it s made a mountain , which they cant see over ; if but a mot it s sooner seen in a brothers ey , then a beame by them in their own ; if it be but some pittifull passage not fit to be printed , a narrative must be made of it , as of some remarkable passage , that can't be omitted ; if but as ridiculous a thing to relate as serious in it self , it must be related to move fools to laugh at it ; but wise men will laugh most at its relator . t.d. as to thy conclusion of thy second narrative , which is a desire of thy reader to peruse the qua. answer to the questions thereto annexed , which were proposed to , and answered by ioseph fuce , whereto thou settest both his name , and answers to them . rep. i say thus much to thee , that howbeit thou hast set down so much of i. fs. return , as neither thy silly self nor io. corbet the priest ( who put forth the queries , and was accordingly answered above two years ago by io. f. ) will ever be able to render any reasonable reply to , ( for if ye could have refuted them , the press was as open for your reply to them , as your bare narration of them ) and so much as will stand over your heads for ever , as a testimony of the duncicall darkness , and groa●able blindness of you both in the misteries of the gospell , of which , for silthy lucres sake , ye do but fancy your selves to be the ministers ; yet either one , or both of you two v pers have done the best , or rather the worst ye could to abuse both io. f. and the qua. and the truth by that cut-short , counterfeit account , thou t.d. givest the world of those queries and answers , that passed between priest corbet and ioseph fuce . for there were queries put by ( thy couzen ) corbet , every one of which were at large , and ( as to any likelihood of their being answered by you ) unanswerably replyed to by io. f. of which thou bring'st out but eight . . as thou bringest out not one half of corbets queries , so , i judge i may safely say , not so much as the th part of i.f. his answers , but only here and there some such broken bits and pieces of them , as ye thought would represent them , as weak and naked , to mens aspect , though indeed as piece-meal as ye have rendred them , they may well be left to stand against all your priestly prate , and pedling pelting ▪ at them . why did ye not , seeing ye had a quarrell at them , publish every inch of all i. f. his answers to the queries ye have set down ? yea why not all the queries , and the whole of his returns to each of them , together with your own replyes to those his returns , that men might be undeceived by you that call your selves their ministers , and take on you to be their masters , so as to teach them truth , since ye deem them to be deceived by i.f. his doctrines ? and then ye had saved your selves from the guilt and censure of that guile and deceit , that now ye are found in , while ye are found shuffling and cutting , picking and culling out here and there a ●aying , leaving out such adjoyning sentences , yea somtimes that half of the same sentence , which , being set down , would have shew'd his true sence of the whole , which ye scrue and wrest , as far as ye can tell how , into another then that intended by him : expertus loquor , i speak what i know , having ( whether i shall print it or no , i yet know not ) the whole entire copy by me of those queries and answers amounting in all to two sheets , thy cutted account whereof comes not neer to the th part of one . surely either one or both of you two brethren in iniquity t.d. i. corb . saw ye could not reply to them , and so had made a swinging rod for your tayls , and slasht your selves as foundly therewith also , had ye put forth the whole truth , which ye have not told the tithe of , whereupon ye have thrust out only some meer fragments of it , with as much manglement of them too , as ye well durst make , and with no other then this dribling answer of thine t.d. p. , of thy second narrative , viz , surely by these principles , in conjunction with the rest in the book , to which this narrative is annexed ( though the said principles remain as unrefuted , as impossible to be refuted by t.d. ) the qua. have for ever forfeited the name of christians , and are to be reputed heathens . t.d. thou tel'st and that twice over , viz. in thy narrative , and in thy witness w. w's reinforcing reply to l. h. a tale of l. h s saying , the priests shall be destroyed by the people called qua. rep. but l. h. hath already so sufficiently disproved that in his reply to thy 〈◊〉 , styled , the devils how unstringed , by three persons , who , as i laid above , testifie his words to have been otherwise , and so prov'd thy witness will , win●field minister of word , to be no minister of the word of truth , nor such a godly minister as thou printest him out for , who can joyn so cordially with thee in printing lyes , that i need say nothing : yet that the preists shall be destroyed by the qua. though l. h's words were not so , is true enough , i here affirm it , yet not by outward gan , sword , or carnal weapon , but by the sword of the spirit , or word of god in their mouths : not by might , nor by power , but by my spirit saith the lord , zach. . t. d. thou sayst in the second page of e. b's book , or word of advice to the souldiers , he bids them give the ministers , or priests blood to drink , for they are worthy . rep. true enough , that the priests will have as much blood as they are worthy of from the lord , though the qua. desire the salvation of their souls and bodies too , if yet it may be , and the destruction of nothing , but that sin , blindness and darkness , which destroyeth them in both : howbeit in the second page of e bill's . book ( unless there be another of his , or of e. bur's . so stiled ) i find no such words as thou artes est to be there on thy own personal knowledge : and so all thy proofs of thy grand lye , for ought i see , fail thee , and lie in the lake together with it . many more absurd and foolish frivolous tales thou tellest , that ● omit ; but two more of thy lying accusations of the qua. more remarkable , then all the rest of those remarkable passages of thy two ( for nothing more then the many lies thereof ) most renowned narratives , remain yet to be remarked , that all may see how thou and thy heard of hearers , and drove of ear-wigs have not so much me al honesty as to speak truth in matters of fact , which is the very fault thou chargest us with , and the worse in thee , sith turpe est doctori , cum culpa red arguit ipsum . and then i shall be at liberty to take a view of the many lyes of thy doctrine . tho●e two , one whereof is prosecuted in thy last narrative only , and the other more wickedly then wisely made , and drove on very devoutly in both , but especially in thy first , without either care or good counc●l , consideration or conscience , truth or righteousness , sense or reason , fear or wit , are these . t. d. that the qua. intend to prosecute the promotion of their principles by that bloody way of persecution with the outward sword . . that the qua. are doubtlesly acted by the antichristian , or romish faction , and do drive on the popish work and papistical design , and of qua. become papists : and further ( for this lye splits it self into two parts , one concerning the qua. in generall , the other concerning my self in particular ) that i.s.f. am probably , and appear to be not only a rank papist , but also 〈◊〉 iesuit holding complyance with the pope , serving the sea of rome , & such like , of which more at large by and by . rep. as to the first of these thy two lyes of the qua. it lies thus palpably ayerred in thy own words . t. d. the truth is , the qua. now declare their intentions to propagate their perswasions by the sword , whereas they were want to pretend to so much meekness , or peaceableness , that they would hold neither spea● , nor sword . rep. here 's the charge ; an arrand lye , yet a truth , if four or five more lyes will serve to prove it ; if not , men must take it for truth on no other acconu● , then this , because t.d. who tels so many lyes , that he deserves not to be believed , when he speaks the truth , doth falsly say so : for thy pieces of proof , which are too piteous to prove thy main false charge , were they all true , are , as to the truest information that i can get thereof , every of them false charges , and a pack of ly●s , like to that they are brought in proof of . the first proof is this slender story . at a late meeting of the qua. in hurst pierpoint in suffex , he that undertook to be speaker , called out to the priest , who accidentally pasled by , saying , we will have you all down ; for now our day is come . the second , this tale. and a o●her qua. in the parish ●f nuthurst , in the same coun●y , did say to a godly person of good quality in that parish , that he no more cared to kill one of the priests , as he styled the ministers , then he would to kill a dog. the third , this wicked lye. and another qua. way-laid the minister of covehould ( a very worthy reverend man at his return from a fast ) and justled him upon the high way , ( as he kept it havi●g his wife behind him ) and drew out his sword , which he had by his side , about half way , which was a shrewd presumption that he intended the minister mischi●f , but that some neighbours that came from the fast , coming up to them , prevented it ; and they do usually give o●t threatning speeches against the ministry , a●d their friends . rep. in answer to these three , i here subscribe such information , as came from the mouths , or hands of sundry s●ssex men , living in and about these parishes or places ; t.d. relates these matters of a truth to have been done , and spoken in , three or four of which are it seems , members of those two parishes of nuthurst , and covewold , in such wi●e as follows . these three charges or slanderous accusations ( as they appear to us ) coming to our hands , we , who are inhabitants in the county of sussex , near adjoyning to these places , where the author saith these things were done , one of us dwelling in one of these parishes , which he makes mention of , have a good and perfect knowledge of these men , who are called quakers , and that they are men of better qualifications , then to offer such violence , or to give out such terms as is here charged upon them . therefore for better satisfaction to ourselves , as also for the sake of others , who may be deceived in believing such things , by giving credit unto them , without a surer ground , then because they are come forth in print to a publike view , also from such a hand , whom they might think would not be so dishonest , as to be the author of things that are not true . upon these considerations and others , which might be mentioned , we undertook to search out the matter with some diligence , that all who desire may be truly informed , and who have prejudice in themselves , neither against one sort of people nor another , because of names or differing in judgment ( as we have not our selves ) who are now about to satisfie of this matter that truth may appear , and that every action may be tryed by it in and among all sorts of people . bryan wilkinson . humphery killingbeck . so for the first accusation , which the author makes mention to be spoken at hurst , he hath caused a lie to be printed , as also the other two , for there were no such words spoke , nonly the friend , that did speak some words , from whence this report might arise , might ask the priest of hurst what they would do if the powers of the earth should for sake them , these words its like were spoken . and as for the second accusation and slanderous lie , which he saith was spoken by a quake●s in the parish of nuthurst , we whose names are here under written , did go unto the man whom the author calls godly and of good qualitie ( unto whom he said these words were spoken ) to know the truth of this thing : and his answer to us was , as he and some others were drinking together , there was one amongst them did say , that it was no more sin for to kill a wicked man , then a swine . thomas wyly . nicolas manard . though there was one , who went under the name of a quaker , who did dwell in nuthurst parish , whom the man , which the author calls godly and of good qualitie , did say was the man , that spoke these words above mentioned ; which are otherwi●e then what is printed : yet this man he ca●ls quaker , that should say these words , hath not dwelt in the parish of nuthurst , neither in the county of sussex this two year and half and above , neither hath he been in these parts of so long time , as can be sufficiently proved , and the cause of this might arise above a year before he went a way . and as for the third slanderous accusation : the minister of cavehold , which the author of this scandalous book calls a very reverend man , we whose names are here under mentioned , did go unto this minister of cavehold in sussex the th day of this eleventh month . . for to have him to set his hand against this scandal ; because we knew that there was no such thing offered by them , from which this slander might arise : and his answer to us was , that there was three caveholds in engla●d , and that it might be at some of them : but he said that he knew the man ( t.d. ) that set forth the book , and that he had one of them himself , and he said he would send to the man to enquire of him , and if he meant cavehold in sussex he would give it under his hand that he was mis-informed , for there was no such thing done there : neither to him . humphery killingbeck . robert thornden . but we have great cause to beleive , that this slanderous accusation did arise at the first from the priest of cavehod in sussex , or by his meanes , as you shall hear ; for upon the day of the th moneth , this present year . at horsam in sussex this priest of cavehold in sussex , with some other priests besides of sussex , did meet at the steeple-house in h●●sam aforesaid in sussex , where many of their members , and other people besides were gathered together , as they said , to keep it as a day of humiliation on fasting day : among which robert adams and some other friends , who are called quakers had freedome to go into the steeple-house among them , and when the priest of caveh●ld of sussex had done , and come out of the pulpit , one friend did speak somthing in way of desire to the priests to give the people called qua. a publick dispute concerning tythes , and other things , that people might come to understand who were most in the truth , whether priests , or we called qua. so upon our return homewards , after that we had rid about a mile , one william field ove●took us , one of the priests members , which rid along with us on the rode , about a mile and a half , in which time priest vinter , the priest of cavehold in sussex , ( for so his name is , george vinter , and he had his wife behind him ) did overtake us as we rid together , being in some discourse , and this priest did bid robert adams call'd qua. ride out of the way , and r.a. said , the way might be as free for me as for thee , yet nevertheless in regard thou hast one behind thee , i will : and so he did ride by the way : upon which the priest did answer , if i had not one behind me , i would have the way of thee , or one of us should lye in the dust , and other threatning terms was given to r.a. by one who was in the same company of the 〈◊〉 , who rid up to us , and this man did justle r.a. on the way , and did lay his hand , or hands upon him , justling him as he rid along . but after this we rid together in discourse about his laying violent hands upon r.a. and other things , till we came within about half a mile of their dwellings , where we parted . but as for a sword r.a. had none , neither did he offer any abuse , nor give occasion of any such thing as they have printed . this is the substance of the ri●e of this scandall , as i had it from humphery killinbeck , who was the friend , that was with robert adams at that time . bryan wilkinson . something of one of the priests cheifest members taken by us b. w. humphery killinbeck from his own hand writing . a true coppy . comming from a fast kept at horsam , i overtook two men that had been at horsam called qua. about a mile from the town , and rid about a mile with them , and then the minister of caveh●ld and his wife , and other neighbours overtook them also ; but i saw no sword any of them had , nor i think none of them , nor the minister , neither will he say that he offered him any vio●ence , i did not see they did , and t is easie to know whether they did or not . william field . another coppy from under the hand of another of the priests members . these are to certifie whom it may concerne that i did heare the minister of cavehold say that robert adams a qua. did ride from horsam , and that he did overtake him as he went from a fast , and that robert adams did fall upon him in railing terms , and did justle him with his wife behind him ; but he did not draw a sword , neither had he any with him ; given under my hand , cavehould th of ianuary , . by me thomas ward . another of priest vinters members , a coppy subscribed with his own hand . i thomas parsons one of the parish of cav●hould in sussex , not being above five miles from horsam did not hear of it , neither by mr. vinter , nor by any other neighbour , and do think it very strange that any such things were , but i should have known it . by me thomas parson . see t.d. how your own parish people , the very earth , helps the church , the woman that beares the manchild against your slanderons tongues and pens , and opens her mouth , & swallows up the flood of lyes and falshood , which that great r●d d●agon , that old serpent , called the d●vill , and satan casts out of his own mouth , and the mouths of you his angels , who fight under him against michaell and his angels against her , that he might cau●e her ( if he could ) to be carried away with that flood of wrath , which ye are ever warring against her withall . thou tellest of way-laying , when thy very worthy and reverend man , or way-laid minister overtook the qua. and swell'd in high and lordly words against him , in his lordly return from his l●●ly fast , wherein ( hower'e he might hang down his head like a bul-rush for a few hours yet ) the bands of his wick●dness were not loos●d , nor his haughty heart so well humbled as it should have been : thou talk'st of justling & threatning speeches the qua gave , when that was the gesture used by others towards him ; thou tell'st of a qua. drawing his sword , and intending mischief , if neighbours comming from the fast had not prevented it by comming up to them , whereas the man hims●lf sayes there was no such thing done there , nor to him , and the very neigbours that came from the fast , witness against thee that the qua. had no sword at all . blush therefore ( as well thou may'st ) thou that sayst thou are upon the stage not without a blush ( but at what thou sayst not ) and be ashamed of thy abominable abuses , as one that must once be conscious to thy self , if any light be yet left in thy con●cience , of wronging thy qua. not only in thy relation of the disputes between thee and them , but also in thy naughty , nasty narratives of so many lyes and false matters of fact concerning them ; left the lord give thee over at last to stronger and stronger delusion yet , both to beleive lyes thy self , that thou mayst be damned , and to bely the only true beleivers of the truth . now whereas in thy half sheet in answer to l. hw . thou t.d. saist thus : it may suffice to let the world know thou hast the 〈◊〉 under the hand of mr. vinter ( as thou call'st him ) minister of cavehould in sussex , a very worthy and reverend man , who asserts the assaults made upon himself by the qua. and canst produce witnesses credible of that action , and of the words therein reported , and that they that know him can inform those , who are ignorant , that his word may be take● for matters of greater moment . rep. much more might be said , but ( as thou sayst ) the press being likely to make the business more publick then the market place , what is above printed may ( for more i have by me ) suffice to let the world know ( if yet thou have such relations under the ministers hand ) what kind of creatures thy credible witnesses are , and how unworthy thy very worthy and reverend men are to be call'd ministers of the gospel , and to have their words taken in matters of doctrine , and soul conce●nment , who are found saying lyes to thee in secret of the qua. and unsaying them to their faces , and not having so much morall honesty as to speak truth in matters of fact , nor yet so much trustiness neither to their own father of lyes , as to keep his and their own councill , without be wraying it , when they have done , as this cavehold reverend clergy man seems to have done by that testimony of his i have here inserted , and that contrary one to himself , which thou say'st thou hast under his own hand ; and this may suffice also to let all men see , who are not wilfully blinded , what fruits follow the most solemn fasts of this generation of blind guides , when they gather together after their devouring of widows houses , and sp●yling of poor p●oples goods for tyths , for a pretence to make long prayers ; so that i shall do no more , as to that last piece of patch of t. d's . putting forth ( having returned the ●ye upon him again , which he thinks he has returned to l. h ) then , having pluckt its wings , turn the sting , that stands at the tayl of that bawbling butterfly , back upon himself , and in short shut up this my return ( as to that ) in the very last words ( mutatis mutandis , additis addendis ) wherein thou t.d. concludest that thy , as impudent , as impotent rejoynder to l.h. viz. so that upon the whole , the publisher hereof ( s.f. ) doubts not but that the wise will be able to discern between truth and falshood , and will in their own thoughts be as farr from acquitting t.d. and his companions , whom l.h. charges with lying , as they would a thief at the bar , meerly because he pleads not guilty to his indictment , which is an usual thing , let the evidence be what it will. and he doubts not but if they should revile in print again , he may be excused , if he make no other return , then inhonestum est honestam matronam cum me●etrice litigare , i.e. it is unseemly for an honest matron to stand brawling with a whore. london , . d. . m. . sam. fisher. and whether the qua. or the parish priests are ( respectively ) the loyall spouse , the lambs wife , rev. . or that great whore , which makes the earth drunk with the wine of the wrath of her fornications , rev. . if the night is not yet spent farr enough for all to see ; yet dies declarabit ( though this is your hour and the power of darkness ) the day is at hand , that will declar● it to all that yet know it not . and now as to thy generall false charge of the qua. as complying with the papists and antichristian faction , which is not thine alone , but that of will. prinn , i. o. i. tomb's , r. baxte● also , and of the priest of kendall , w. brownsword answered in that particular by e. bur. i. story , and in a manner of the whole covent of co-contenders against the quakers . rep. i should blush and be ashamed were i in thy case , to make such a confident narrative of it , and such an undoubted profession of my faith thereof , as thou dost of thine , and produce no more then two such pitiful proofs for it as thou dost ; and to send it abroad in print on two such lame legs , as can help it are the stile . little more then a bare repetition of thy reasons after thee , is enough to a right reader to render the urger of them reasonless and ridiculous enough in all reason . t. d. i am out of doubt , ( sayst thou ) they are acted by the antichristian faction . rep. why so ? t. d. a gentleman of good credit assured me that be met with an english iesuit in london , the first lords day in june last ; one who was bred in cambridge , and had been formerly of his acquaintance , who after some shyness to be known , at length confessed that he came over to propagate the romish faith , and told him that there was a good honest people called quakers , whom we jeer'd at , that did their work at the second hand ; and he boasted much of the numbers that turned catholicks immediatly , or mediatly , by becoming quakers . rep. both thou and thy men of credit will come to be out of credit ere long , if thou crack thy own and their credit but a little longer , so much as thou hast done hitherto . but . suppose it true , that he assured thee so . . suppose that true he assur'd thee of : what then ? the papists dote , as our priests often do in other cases , that that will make for them , which to any , but such as discern not the signs of this season , doth undoubtedly work toward their utter ruin , therefore doubtlesly the qua. either are or will turn papists . object . but many by becoming qua. turn catholicks . rep. the qua. are of the catholick church , if thou wilt know , as thou dost , what catholick is , but so are not the papists , that are of no church , but that of rome : the church of rome is but a particular church as that of england , or another national one may be : but the catholick church is general and universal ; a church that was before rome was a church or a city either , as some qua. have oft asserted to friars and iesuits , to the stopping of their mouths : a church that had its being ( though the world sees it not , nor knows it ) from abel to this day : to which general assembly and church of the first-born , whose names are written in heaven , and to the spirits of iust men made perfect , the qua. are come , as the saints were of old , heb. . and so ( while romanists are but , as ye are , a bastard brood ) the qua. are the truest catholick church , that is in the world . t. d. anothe● gentleman , that came this spring from st. omars , did avouth that he saw the iesuits there , about four a clock every evening throw off their gowns , and put on aprons , and betake themselves to the exercise of handy-craft callings ; some plaid the shoomakers , others sa●e at the loom , others kill'd and dress'd sheep , and they did not stick to boast , that under the disguise of such callings ( working as iou●nymen , and changing place as they listed ) they served the romish church . and the head of the colledge told him , that england never was in so fair a way of return to the romish sea , since it broke off , as now . and what hopes the papists can have , unless from the encrease of qua. i leave reader to thy determination . rep. what news is this to any but nevices , that iesuits in craft use handicraft callings , that under that disguise they may serve rome ? but what follows hence ? t. d. nempe similium similis ratio : the qua. are mostly handicrafts men , and in that the iesuits and qua. are alike : the one can outwardly work with their hands , ( a thing that our priests will never do till they must needs ) so can the other ; the one can make sh●os , so can the other ; the one can handle the loom , kill and dress sheep , so can the other ; therefore the qua. and iesuits are all one . rep. and so are all things as they have a being ; but as nullum simile est idem , so nullum simile currit quatuor , was a lesson that i once learn't , and t.d. too ; but he can forget it for his own ends , and so argue as accurately a comparatis , to prove the qua. to be as like the iesuits , as ever they can look , as the franciscan friar in his sermon a simili & comparatis comparandis , prov'd his beloved st. francis to be as exactly like to christ , as could be , in this manner ; christ was born , and so was st. francis ; christ liv'd , and so did st. francis ; christ was on earth , and so was st. francis ; christ died , and so did st. francis ; christ went to hell , and so did st. fr. in all which the man was very right ; but when he stretcht his simile so far in love to st. francis , as to say christ came back again , and so did st. fr. nay now thou lyest ( quoth one of his hearers ) for though christ descended into hell , as did also saint fr. yet he came out again , and so did not st. fr. but he is there still , and ever will be . in like manner i l'e yield to t. d's comparison of the qua. and iesuits as far as is fit ; the iesuits are men , and so are the qua. iesuits are in christendom , and so are the qua. iesuits are preachers , and so are the qua. iesuits can work with their hands and preach too , and so can the qua. ( the more shame for our lazy lord beggars that are ashamed to dig , but to beg are nor ashamed ) but if t.d. strein his stuff so far upon the tenters , as ( whereas the iesuits do also this to serve the rom●sh church ) and in the heighth of his servent hatred to the qua. to say the qua. do so too , i shall leave him lying there , as the fellow did the foresaid fryar , saying no more but thus ; that what work with their own hands preaching qua do , they do it as paul did , who ( otherwise ) had a power to cease from working , that they may make the gospel ( which our parish priests have long made such a gainful trade of , to the cost of these nations ) without charge to the nations that yet own it not : as those did of old , ioh. . ep. who went forth freely for his names sake , taking nothing of the nations , chap. iii. and now as to thy second part to the same tune , wherein thou cantest i● out aloud concerning my self , who am not only more pers●nally and immediately concerned in it , but concerned also for the go●pels sake i hold forth to clear my self . thou green-headedly goest about to insinuate it into all people , that his not groundlesly to be su'pected , that i comply , as one with them , with the pope or cardinals at rome , as from some others , more simple , then it self , so chiefly from that ( sa●is superque ) simple antecedent , viz. my 〈◊〉 some doctrines which are theirs . now since i am one against whom there is such prejudice among all manner of people , through the subtle , sinister , and sinful suggestions of the priests , both prating , and preaching and printing me to be in likelihood a papist , a iesuit , &c. so that i can go no where among those of my own nation , in any service to the gospel , , where i am not so hit i' th teeth with rome , and kissing the popes 〈◊〉 , and such like toys , that equity itself from my mouth , cannot enter into many minds , by reason of the iniquity of levi's lies , which are in love with lyes : bear with me yet a little longer in that folly of an●we●ing a few fools according to their folly , though in so doing , i make my self for a while more like them , then ( through mercy ) i really am , left being ( as else i myself had much rather be in this case ) wholly silent , they grow so wise in their own conceits , as to take my total silence ( as t.d. is very hasty to do in other cases , p. . ) for con●ent , that all the lyes they broach , and for the truths sake load me with , are truths indeed . the capital crime , then which i am by many priests charged with , and which my holding some truths , they hold at rome , is by t.d. made the cardinal proof of , is that of popery , of receiving a pension from the pope , of complying with the antichristian faction , with the pope and cardinals at rome : the whole parcel of proof , which that aforesaid is a prime part of , is made up of many more particular ingredients , & compounded of several other simples , whereof some are urg'd not only in proof of the main point , or accusation , but as accusations themselves , of which some are true , some false , others urgd only as proofs of that grand crime i am accus'd of . i would willingly ( much printing being as burdensom to mens purses , as much writing is to their persons ) to save the charge of printing that o're again , which was never worth the thousandth part of its first impression , have breifly hin●ed only at the heads of that fardell of falshood , and cut them off as fast as i had named them , but that i may be free from all suspition of doing him wrong , and be sure to do him no more then right , who so grosly wrongs me , it lies the more on me to se● them down in his own words , wherein they lye altogether in one lake , p. , , . of t. d's . paper , only he shall give me , or ( if not ) i shall take leave ( as of● as i see occasion ) to leave out m● . wherever it stands before my name , and set s. only in its stead , or any other mans name , whether in this , or any other part of his book , when i have occasion to mention any of those , to whose names he sets it ( as he doth to some , and not to some , to shew his partiality and respect of persons , which stands not with the faith of god ) and being on good grounds free neither to stand mastering up of them , into whose service i have never hired my self , nor ( if they please to forbear it to me wards ) to own that title of mr. to my self , which some use so much to each other , till it stinks , & t. d's book so much to me , that i am asham'd on 't , from any of them that were never any of my hired servants : and howbeit i once ( iure academico ) by as much right , as such men , as chuse to have it still done so to themselves , in token of their mastership of arts , had that half penny piece of honour of m.a. printed to my name , as t.d. now hath , in title-pages , ( and that that past in times of ignorance , let it pass without more mention , or finding fault with it , from my self and others ) yet if my self , or any shall henceforth write , or cause himself by pen or press , to be inscribed either m.a. or d.d. or b.d. and any reader in his ignorance , not knowing well how to cypher or cast account , shall happen to read mr. ass , or dr. dunce , or blind divine , the affecter of those trifling titles of mr. of arts , doctor in divinity , & batchelour in divinity , who is not more baccalaureus , then laurus sine baccis , shall in no wise be laughed at , and as little lamented at all by me . and since i am thus casually fallen upon this theam , about respect to mens persons , and using titles of honour to them ; it s not much amiss ( i minding gods matters more then mens manners , and plain-ness more then that our masters of art call method ) before i proceed in examination of t. d's false charge of me , as to matter of popery , left i find no fitter place for it in the after part of this book , to take notice here of another inordinate charge of t.d. in which ( it concerning all the qua. ) my self also am not a little concern'd , which , in p. . of his first pamph. upon occasion of r.h. his calling thomas rumsey by his own name : is on this wise . t. d. you qua. are an unmannerly generation , you might have given a magistrate the title of master . rep. how contrary are these teachers , ministers , alias servants of our times , who ( with the rest of their fellow rabbies , painted sepulchres , whited walls , out-side cleansers , scribes , pharisees , hypocrites , blind guides , strainers at gnats and swallowers of camels ) love uppermost rooms at feasts , chief seats in synagogues , greetings in markets , and affect to have men called , and to be called of men rabbi , rabbi , master , master , reverend sir , and such like , to the only one master christ , who condemns all this , and cryes wo against those , that are found in it , mat. . ●r●t otum ? how contrary are they to his apostles , who forbade this respect to mens persons , which these master ministers are ever and anon pleading for against the qua. as a clownish , unmannerly generation for not giving it : iames sayes , iames . . to . my brethren , have not the faith of our lord iesus with respect of persons : telling the saints that if they have respect to rich men that wear gold rings and goodly apparrell , and set them up on high , and despise the poor in vile rayment , setting them at their heels , and putting them under feet , as the footstool ; they are partial within themselves , commit sin , and are convinced of the law as transgressors : elihu , when he was to speak for god to iob , and his great friends , sayd job . , . let me not accept any mans person , neither let me give fla●tering t●tl●s unto man ; for i know not to give fla●tering titles : in so doing , my maker would soon take me away : and so goes on , using no other titles to him beside his name , and that plain ( but now disdained ) thee and 〈◊〉 , as his words are most truly and properly translated out of the o●ig●●al into right english : thus did the saints and ministers of god of old , even like to christ himself , of whom t was said by the pharisees , mat. . , . that took notice of it ( and perhaps disgusted it as much as our modern ministers now do , some of which though they say little , yet think the more ) master , we know thou art true , and teachest the way of god in truth , neither carest thou for any man , for thou rega●d●st not the person of men , even caesars meer person more then anothers , yet he gave caesar his due too and ( though he was free ) gave him tribute , mat. . , , , . and so did his saints then , and we now , give tribute to whom tribute , custom to whom custom , honour to whom honour , fear to whom fear , obedience to wh●m obedience is due ; and with that honour of yielding tribute and subjection to , as we have the due benefit of protection by their laws while just , and enacted according to the law and light of christ in every conscience , which is holy , just and good , and while as justly executed by rulers , do we honour them : yet then only are their laws justly enacted and executed ( nevertheless ) when these outward sword-bearers and their laws are a terror to evil works , and a praise & encouragement to the good , and to them that do well ; for else they act more might then right , and ( as the devil does , who is the prince of the power of the air , the god of this world and ruler of the darkness of it ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , according to meer will and lust , not according to law itself , by permission for a time , but not by any true commission from god himself , by whom the law , which we own in its place , was added because of transgression , and is not for the righteous , but for the unrighteous , for murderers , theeves , and whatever is contrary to sound doctrine and godliness . and this truly divine honour of subjection and obedience to magistrates just laws , as justly executed as enacted , is it , and not the meer humane h●mage of high flattering titles , as you and sir , and complements , and cringings , and outward worships , and genu-flexions , and bodily bowings to mens persons , which in the second commandment ( by whom ever used , as in the typical shado●y time , they were by iacob to esau himself , by ● david and others , whose practice is not our rule , but gods praecept ) are prohibited to be given to the image or likeness of any thing in heaven , earth , or under the earth , is that god cals for , and we give for conscience sake . and thus we honour all men , owing nothing to any but love , which works no ill to the neighbour , and fulfils the law , and so children are bid by paul to obey their , parents as 't is fit in the lord , in which obedience , though they make not idols of them , kneel not down , and ask them blessing , as in popish days they foolishly did to their godfathers and godmothers , when they meet them , they are said according to that commandment to honour the father and the mother , ehh. . , . and so servants in their relation honour their own masters , when , not with eye-service as men-pleasers , but in singleness of heart , as fearing god the great master in heaven , they are faithful in the business they are entrusted with by them , though they never stand cap in hand to them , and should never call them by that name of master , which yet we allow as the scripture it self does , as well that of father , mother , king , ruler , magistrate , when used , not as a flattering title , but as a note , or term of distinction between the relatum and the correlatum in that relation , that is between princes and subjects , parents and children , masters and the servants , that have hired themselves to them : and thus only ought things to-be among the saints . howbeit such a generation of parasites are all sorts of professors now become , that ( without exception of any but the qua. who come to that beginning , which is also the end of all things , and is now at hand ) they all more or less have mens persons in admiration , because of advantage , and are found sluttering and falling down at the feet of the great lords of the earth , little less then adoring the earthly tabernacles of those that can climb highest in authority , and painting and trimming them out ( as the rest of the birds , did the naked iack-daw in the fable , with every one a new fine feather ) till every one plucking away his own again , as anon they do , they leave their lords , who knew not their old friends , nor themselves neither , while their honour lasted , which is ( plus in honorante ever , then in honorato ) and stands more in his fickle will , that gives , then his , that hath the honour , as naked laughing stocks in the midst of their fellow-creatures , and in more fulness of shame and confusion of face , then could have befell them possibly , had they never been so preheminently exalted . yea so odious are the cronchings of christians to each other , according as they are higher or lower in their gentile preferments , and gentile-like lordliness that they ( contrary to christ , who said to his disciples , mat. . , , . it shall not be so among you ) exercise or'e one another , and that not only in italy , france , and spain , but even in these , so ever and anon besworn ( not to say forsworn ) nations , that are ever reforming , and yet deformed , that it loads and loaths the life of god in his saints , while in the light it looks upon those antick adorations , that pass between man and man , christian and christian , brother and brother in the same church , when one clambers but a little higher then another in places of earthly command , not only in such words , as may it please your highness , your excellency , my lord , &c. but also such gestures and postures of standing ●●re , and putting off , and bending to the very soles of one anothers feet in token of respect , and that sometimes when in heart they could with each other hang'd , and holding up one anothers traines , cum multis aliis quae nauc , &c. as if they would do honour to the shadow of one anothers shoo-strings , and tie themselves eternally to attend upon the very tayles one of another , for the lease of such perishing pieces of outward honour , as are entail'd ( as they dream ) on such and such places ( as persons can procure them ) for no less then from henceforth world without end amen . besides oh the shamefully mis-attributed titles that are now entaild as badges of honour by men one to another , from generation to generation , as may it please your holiness , which is that flattering title blasphemously and prophanely attributed to his wickedness the pope , your majesty , your highness , your grace , your eminency , your excellency , your honour , your worship , &c : honoured sir , reverend sir , worthy sir , segnior , mounsieur , master , &c : which are ( respectively ) attributed to emperors , kings , princes , dukes , generalls , marquesses , earls , vizcounts , barons , baronets , knights , esq. iudges , serjeants , doctors at law , councellers , governours and commanders , civil and millitary , cardinalls , mountseniors , arch-bishops , bishops , abbots , arch deacons , deanes , and their officialls , doctors , batchelors in divinity , and other sciences , masters and batchelors of arts , and such academicall admirers of mens persons for advantage , rectors , parsons , vicars , curates , and other such spirituall persons , and clericall , classicall , and conventionall creatures , and all these little less abominaably , and prophanely , then that of holiness to the pope , forasmuch as the men ( call'd christians ) who now give and take all these , do , to their own further confusion make confession to god himself through their priests lips , and ministers mouths in their daily prayers , that all honour , glory , praise , power , blessing , dignity , dominion , worship , worth , reverence , thanksgiving and obedience belongs to god alone ; and do to him only ( but that they mock him while they pray ) seem to ascribe it all ; and if all belong to him only , then none to man , whose breath is in his nostrills , who is to be ceased from , and not at all to be accounted on , at least while he beares ( as in the fall he does ) no other then the dishonourable image of satan , and till he come back by the light into that image , and glory of god , which now by sin ( saving the few that are regenerated from that degeneracy ) mankind universally comes short of ; which image , power , and glory of god alone in man , which image is christ jesus , the righteousness and wisdom of god , the express image of the father , we respect , reverence and honour , where even it appears , let the person in which be elsewise never so mean among mistaken men ; so daily honouring all men ( in the lord ) as enjoyned by him , pet. . and as he does that dwells in gods holy hill , in whose eyes as it s said , psal. . a vile person is contemned ( not estimated , or counted on the more for his outward greatness ) but he honours them that fear the lord , whom men in the fall , that regard wordly goods and earthly greatness , more then reall and heavenly goodness , for the most part are found despising . and further yet , so gros is the greediness after this destruction , of the faith of god by the fore●aid respect to mens persons in this english nation , that for the sake thereof they are , as few or no nations besides them are , become more ignorant in one thing , then the poor unlearn'd qua. ( as they call them ) are in their own mother tongue : for as little as the qua. do ultra linguam vernaculam sapers , and as little la ine as they understand , as i. o. sayes in his latine labours against them , yet they both ken and keep to the proper idiom of the english language , in using that of thee and thou , when they speak to what ever single person without respect , but our m●ngrill seed , or canaanitish ashdodites , speak half one way , and half another , often thee-ing and thou-ing their inferiors , but so ●are of offending great mecenasses , and men of place and power ( ●ho in eodem cum illis harent lut● ) they ●peak by the plurall ( you ) as if they were talking to more , while they are bespeaking no more then one : an absurd abuse of their native nationall tongue . in hebrew , greek and latine there is not such a gross perverting of the pronoune of the d . person plurall , as slavish feare and flattery , and fawning , and pride , and men pleasing , and ambition ; and affectation of the honour from beneath , & respect to the persons of men , and having them in admiration because of advantage & such like dirt & filth as is tit for nought , but the dunghil , from whence it came , hath brought into our english nation , where the filth aforesaid hath blinded , and besotted the foolish folk thereof , so far that it hath in a manner forced them universally to forget and forsake that forme of speech that is most proper to the english tongue , and utterly to loose their own native language & the right use of the aforesaid pronoune , so as to wrest it besides its own due , true , speciall , prime , and genuine signification into a sense that is ( in truth ) no less then false , silly , & non sensicall . for in hebrew , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 attah ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if it be the faeminine ) not only signifies thou or thee , as likewise 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 attem and atten in the plurall you and yee , but also the iewish nation in their writings and talkings one to another ( as they ever did ) so do at this day usually keep thereunto , saying continually , when they speak to a single per on only , though never so great , as well as when to the meanest , attah ( or at , if to a woman ) that is ( being englished ) thou or thee , but never attem or atten , that is ( being englished ) you or yee , but when they speak to more then one ; the truth whereof , as some of them call'd qua. have been eare witnesses , who have been in discourse with many of those thousands of the iews they have been amongst , so all that know ought of the hebrew tongue , may be eye witness thereof , if they will but peruse the scriptures , or any other writings in that language . also in greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , su , sou , soi , se , which are the same pronoune of the d person singular , varied only as to the case , signifying thou or thee , are universally used among the gracians , both in orall discourses , and writings , when a single person only is spoken to , and the words in the plurall , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , humeu , humon , humin , humas , which in english are you or yee us'd only when more then one are spoken to . also in latine every one that is learn'd no farther then the accidence hath learnt so much that tu , tui , tibi , te , which are thou or thee , in the singular number only , a●e us'd , and never vos , vestrium , vobis , which in sence and signification are you and yee , when a single person only is written or spoken to , and it would be counted false latine and ridiculous , and such a thing as deserves hissing at among very school-boyes , to use the terms vos or vobis to express one single person by . and yet such is the folly and apishness of our english nation , that when they speak to one person only , specially if it be a superiour ( for when they speak to inferiours , they often times keep to thee and thou , and thy or thine , which is the pronoune possessive , derived from its primitive thou : e. g. thou shalt have this or that , i will give this or that to thee , get thee hence , go thy why , this book is thine and such like ) but when a superiour ( i say ) is spoken to as a matter , a father , a land-lord , a knight , a gentleman , as they call them , a magistrate , a governour , or some great ●ne , then out of that reverentiall respect they have to mens persons , ( which cannot stand with the true faith of god , and without transgression of the law iam. . ) they use the words you & yee , and your and yours &c : which in the propriety of the english speech , are only for the plurall number , and to be used only when more persons then one are spoken to : which gross digression and degeneration from the truth of their own mother tongue in saying you sir , may it please you , your worship , your excellency or the like , is as abominably absurd , as it would be , if in any of the three languages abovesaid , men should use words of the plurall number to a particular person , and the absolute absurdity of that every a b c-darian only in any of those tongues is able to discover , and would abandon : yea to say in english , you sir , to one man , be he never so eminent , is as false english , as its false latine to say to one in latine , vos domine , & that 's as false , as to expre●s these words ( thou lovest ) by the latine words vos amas , which is no better then nos am● , or ego aman●●us , or tu ama●is , or ●ille amant , and all this the very accidence doth cry shame on : finally , as the hebrew , greek and latine testaments , as well as all other writings in those several languages , do so clearly witness it ( besides what evidence comes into this matter from other tongues ( viz ) italian , dutch , spanish , &c ) that as we may safely summon all men to shew us so much as one instance , where any of the words of the plurall number are ever used to a verbe of the second person singular , or us'd to express one single individuall person , so as to say in hebrew , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 abavia attem , or in greek , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or in latine vos amas , which are all , being englished , thou levest , so ( excepting the writings of modern men only ; or their modern translations of other ancient , humane writings , which all makes nothing against us in this case ) so rightly , properly , and truly , both have and still daily do our very adversaries fall in with us , and favour us , whether they will or no , in this point in the translation of all our english bible , which for shame they will not say , but they have translated into the most proper , and not improper english , that we can challenge all english men in the world to shew us any one translation , or any place in any one translation of the bible , out of hebrew , greek , or latine , into the english tongue , wherein the word you ( which is now so used in their common discourses one to another , but especially when proud personages are bespoken ) or any other terme then that of thou or thee is used to speak to a single person by , as well when god himself , or the greatest king or proudest prince , as when the poorest peasant , or simplest servant is spoken to , and we will yeeld further to them that stomack it to be thee'd and thou'd by us , then yet we can , or if they will help themselves by such a helpless shift , as to say the bibles are not translated so properly and truly as they should be , as to those words of thou or thee , let such as snuff at thou and thee from us , put out the words thou and thee , and instead thereof , put in the words you or yee , when god and great men are spoken to , so as where it s said to god , thou o lord madest the heavens , and they are the work of thine hands , all thy workes praise thee , and thy saints bless thee , to read thus , ( viz ) you o god made the heavens , they are the works of your hands , all your works praise you , and your saints bless you , &c : and in that place where paul saith to agrippa , dost thou beleive o king agrippa ? yea i know thou beleivest , to read , dost ye beleive o king agrippa , yea i know you beleivest , and they will see what a palpable piece of nonsence it would amount to , like to which yet they utter and sound forth in their ordinary locution , but feel it not ; and last of all , if thou and thee be not to be used to a single person only , it hath no place , nor use at all in the english-tongue , for it can't possibly be properly used when we speak to more , it being ( saving when we speak to them as a collective body , and as one , and so somtimes the prophets spake to whole nations under the term of thou and thee ) no less unsound and unsavory to say thou or thee to men , as you or ye to one , and alike foolish to say to two severall men , thou shale both dye , i le kill thee both , as to say to one of them only , you alone shall dye , i will kill you ; which are two bulls that deserve both to be soundly baited . to conclude this then , we see how our chief priests , scribes , pharisees and hypocrites of these dayes , as they did of old love the praise of men , more then the praise of god ; have that faith , they have in god , with respect to the persons of men , which who so has is a sinner , and transgressor of the law , and though their mouths speak great swelling words of faith , religion , reformation , god , christ , church , ministry , maintenanc● , yet they are but walkers after their own lusts and , sensuall , or meer animall as iude sayes , verse . . not having the spirit , while they have mens persons in admiration , because of advantage ; and beleive not , though they deem themselves ( every one in his own form ) to be the true beleivers , so long as they are thus busied in begging and buying , giving and taking this honour that is from beneath only : for not seeking the honour that is only from aboue , which all the saints have psal. . . l●t them say what they will , yee sayes christ , ioh. . . how can ye beleive , which receive honour one of another , and seek not the honour that commeth from god only ? as unmannerly a generation then as t.d. faith the qua. are , in not using that flattering title of mr. to t. rumsey the magistrate , i say if t. rs. carriage were more like a magistrates , then 't is , according to the proverb , 't is better of the two , if that were unmannerliness , to be a little unmannerly , then so much troublesome as men in the fall are one to another with their tedious attendances , antick adoratious of each other , and supersluous complements , bu● indeed 〈◊〉 good manners to use it by none , but that people , whose evill communications corrupt good manners , the heathen whose customes are vain : and as for us , if any man list to be contentious about our manners in such matters , he must know that , as there 's no law of god or man that hinds us from keeping on our hats , from thee or thou , to cap and congee , and you sir , and master , and such like flatteries , not to say meer fooleries , which are all in the fall ; so we have no such manner of manners , nor customes among us , nor any of the true churches of god. and hereby we appeare to any , save such as will needs mistake us , to be neither papists , nor popish priests ; for they have as much of that kind of ill manners of honouring each others persons , as is to be found among your selves , nevertheless , who so blind as he that will not see , thou t. d. wilt needs so befool thy self as to make it pro●abl● that i am one of them , whose words ( excepting as in the proviso abovesaid , ●re now verbatim to be rehearsed ; who having hinted it in p. . how rob. wilkinson minister of staple had accused me to have been at rome , and received a pension from the pope goest on as followes . t. d. as to the matter whereof samuel fisher was accused , part of it he denied not , namely , that he hath been at rome , but that he received a pension from the pope , he utterly denied , which yet that is probably as true , for i have it from very good hands , that in his late travail to constantinople , and thence to rome , he had as good bills of exchange , as most gentlemen that travaile , and yet 't is well known that he hath no visible estate . and the qua. who came to hear the dispute ( who i suppose would not bely him ) did report , that he did bear his witness against the pope and cardinals at rome , and yet suffer'd them not to meddle with him , which how unprobable it is , let all men judge , but how much more probable , that the true cause of his safety was his compliance with them , the doctrines which he broaches among us , and ( as he saies ) in all other places , being theirs , and a fair inlet to their bag and baggage . and to assure the reader of the likelihood of his compliance with the antichristian faction , thou maist please to know , that the th instant ( english account ) two honest , and credible men of sandwich had some discourse with s. fisher at dunkirk , and he told them that he looked upon the jesuits and friars there , to be founder in doctrine , then those we call the reformed churches . this they are ready to testifie at any time upon call . another passage i have to acquaint thee with , viz. that the aforesaid s. fisher , in conference with the above-named sandwich men at dunkirk , may . english stile , did affirm that he himself is above ordinances , and that there is no more use of them in this life , to many portions , then there is of a candle-light , when the sun shines , and he gave instance in the uselessness of baptism , and the lords supper . and the same witnesses were credibly informed at dunkirk , that s. fisher hath great bills of exchange from a quaking london merchant , and may take up four hundred pound if he will. and hundreds of people can testifie how light he made of the charge of pope●● , on the first day of the dispute , when i pluck'd amesus th tome against bellarmine , and offer'd to read part of it out of the latine into english ; and with a gesture of derision he replied , that bellarmine held many truths , which must not be rejected because he held them , and he gave for instance , that christ is the son of god. moreover in p. . thou writest thus ( viz ) the third question debated on was ( though with much ado ) at length stated in these termes ; wheth●● our good works are the meritorious cause of our justification ? and s. f. held it in the affirmative . s. f. t●us i prove it : to these words t. d. now you shew your self a rank papist indeed . rep. monstrum , hor●endum , informe , ingens , cui lumen ademptum ! what a horrible bundle of blindness is here ? what a hidden heap of hocus p●cus ? this nasty piece of na●●ative is , of itself , a little lake of lyes , and the whole is little better : under this hedg are many hedg-hogs hidden , many cockatrices hatched up , whose fruit is as a fiery 〈◊〉 serpent , many false tongues fed with fuell fit for them , many fools fenced in their folly , as with a thicket of thornes , many sons of beli●● bolstred up in their blasphemies , and emboldened to throw about in their madness firebrands , arrows & death : among these nettles of thy planting t.d. do the seed of the serpent , the generation of vipers breed , make their nests , nourish up one another , and so securely shelter themselves under the shadow thereof , that like adders and scorpions they sting ( cum privilegio ) with their tongues , and with their tayles , not only shooting out misreports from their mouths , but leaving behind them , where ere they come , the fiery darts of their lying tales , the deadly poyson of which sets on fire the course of nature in virulent spirits , and whole housholds on fire of hell against the truth ; in which work , but that truth is strong enough to stop , as well the lyars , as the lyons mouths , these creatures of thy creating could not quickly be controul'd , having now the authority of thy printed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to shew for their abomination , and to back them in it , which , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 like some benefactor to their lying lips , thou hast , as a certaine legend of lyes , bestow'd upon them . it s but meet therefore , and more then time that some reply be from me return'd to these and other particulars of thy legend for truths sake , though else ( so far as my person alone , and abstract from that , is interessed therein ) i should ( god knows ) in whom i am hid as in a-pavillion from the strife of tongues , please my self much more to sit down in silence ( as i have hitherto done under many other mens misreports of another nature ) under the tumultuousness of the wicked , who are like troubled raging waves of the sea , never at rest , but ever casting up mire and dirt , and foaming out against me their own shame , and thine also , whilst stirred up therto by the stormy wind of that malevolent spirit , which from this and severall other quarters of thy book breaths out , and blowes upon them : ● yea did i not see the truth , though vindicated against thee to the full by my foresaid friends r. h. g. w. suffering among some , where their writings have not come , for want of somewhat from my self , i should assuredly sit still , drinking in contentedly every dram of thy drassy discourse , under this thy tempestuous showre , whilst it shatters it self down from thy black inky pen in such dirty droppings upon my head , or at most saying , as one dribling disputant used to say , no more then quid tum ? to all that 's true , and negatur id , to all that 's false , which ( though it be but a ridiculous reply ) yet would rout it all , & were an answer answerable enough to thy ridiculous reports , for that of thine , that 's true hath nothing in it so much as probably to prove what thou inferr'st from it , & that which is false in itself , as to the thing asserted , is fit for nothing but to be denyed , for from it much less can there either probably or possibly be inferred any truth ; for wheras they say of propositions and premises , according as they regularly & legitimately , or irregularly are disposed as to the outward forme thereof , thus ( viz ) ex falsis falsum verum ●aliquando sequetur , ex veris possit ●il nisi vera sequi ; so inverting the order say i of prepositions or premises according as they are true or false in their subject matter . ex , veris verum falsum q●aliquando sequetur , exfalsis possi● nil nisi falsa sequi . now therefore that honest well meaning men and simple hearted people may be no more guld and misguided by thy guilded glosses in these particulars , as many have been , as well in these particulars concerning my single self , as in those aforesaid concerning both me & the qua. in generall , and that the mouth of the horse and mule , ( ●cupiunt placere magistro , utuntur diligentia , nec sunt tanti cessatores ut calcaribus indigeant ) which are forward enough and to fall on , and open in lyes , do not need thy spur , may be held in from any more harming , as with bit and bridle ; in the name of the lord , though he that removeth the stones , and breaketh the hedg wh●re serpents lodg , may look not only to be hissed at for his paines , but also to be hurt , and bitten therewith , i shall bring down this slight wall , which thou hast built , and other diviners of lyes dawb with their untempered morter , glorying therein as in some strong tower , though it is but rudis indigestaque moles , a rock of meer rubbish , and no more then a refuge of lyes , that the foundation thereof may be discovered ; & , not bawlking for the bawlings , barkings and brabbles of any owners thereof , i shall break in upon this bushy brake of briars and brambles , and lay the axe to the root of it , which is no better than rottenesse it self , that its blossom may go up as the dust ; but i confesse were i not guided by a manifestation of that spirit of god , of which thou lyingly sayest ver . . r. h. and g. w. had little of ( for t was by a plentiful measure of that spirit of god , which blasphemously thou callest a spirit of errour and contradiction , by which they so hampered thee , that thou wast able with all thy r●ason to resist it no otherwise their those , who resisted the same in steven , acts . . . . and not by that mother wit , to which thou a cribest it ) i should have been much to seek how to behave my self in the handling of these thy unhearn businesses , i mean thy two narratives ( of which this parcel about the qua. being probably papists , and my self probably a iesuit is a most remarka●le passage ) yea so over grown are they with lying words , and all manner of evill weeds , that as the bungling barber for want of skill never left handling the deformed , over-grown beard of a new customer , of which he should have left some standing , till he had handled it all away ; so i should hardly have found any thing at all in them that 's worth sparing , the very truths that are therein , being told to as bad an end as the very lyes : but wisdom is profitable to direct ; in that measure of which , that i , who am else ●a very fool , have received from above , and from him alone , out of whose mouth it cometh to all them , and them only , who wait for it thereat , i reject no more then that which is refuse , and deal with these thy two excrementitious matters , as men do with the most unprofitable and useless hair of hogs and swine , when they have to do with it ; viz. make use of so many of the best bristles as will fit their own use , and singe the rest in the fire , or else sweep it all away into the sink ; for that little of thy superfluous stories , which must be granted for true and serviceable , serves not thee , who re . latest it so well against me , as it serves me , against whom thou relatest it , against thy self . in disproof then of the truth of thy a●ch-assertion , or accusation of me to be a rank papist , a complyer with the pope and cardinals , and one that receive a pension from him , which is the top-stone of thy brittle building that i am to take down , and the conclusion in proof of the probability whereof at least all the rest is alledged , i shall not ( as much countryfied as i am ) be so dunsical as to begin with the denial of the conclusion , nor would my nay prevail against thy yea among thy creditors , if i should ; but discover first the falseness , weakness , nakedness and inconsequences of the premises , that every indifferent reader may conclude the utter improbability of the truth of thy confident conclusion within himself , and remove the under stones , which thou lay'st for thy foundation , and among the rest , that of my holding some doctrines held at rome , which thou makest the very head of the corner , that so the fore●aid topstone may tumble down of it self . what is true among thy premises , i shall own the truth of , but deny the consequence thereof , as to that which by thee is from thence deduced : and what is false not only deny , but also deny the consequence of it if it were true . . that i have been at rome , and there born my testimony against the pope and cardinals ( in such wise ●as was required of me by the lord who sent me ) who only ( and not i my self , as thou ( quippingly ) recitest that passage ) suffer'd them not to meddle with me , that i made light of thy charging me with popery , and that i was at dunkirk , and in discourse with the two men of sandwich , t. foxton and t. barber at the time thou speakest of ; and that somewhat by me was spoken about friars and iesuits , holding some sound doctrines , which some protestant priests deny , and somewhat about the non-necessity , or indifferency of the use of the things ye call ordinances , where the substance , of which they were shadows , and to which as figures they pointed , was come in place , like as of a candle where the sun shines : and that i said , good works ( intending christs ) are the meritorious cause of our iustification , and argued a contrariis to this effect , ( viz. ) evil works are the meritorious cause of our condemnation , therefore good works are the meritorious cause of our non-condemnation or iustification ; all these premises are own'd and thy elf also , asserting thus far only of me , artown'd as standering me of no more then truth : but quid hoc ad rh●mbum ? all this yet is of no consequence as to thy deduction . and . as to all the rest , ( viz. ) my having bils of exchange to and from constantinople to rome , and my broaching doctrines that are not only theirs , but a fair inlet to their bag and baggage , and my saying to t. f. and t. b. at dunkirk , in those very terms thou settest down ( v●z . ) that i looked upon the iesuits and friars there , to be sounder in doctrine , then those ye call the reformed churches , and that i my self am above ordinances , and that i have great bils of exchange , from a quaking london-merchant ( as thou quippest it out again ) and that the terms of the third question , which i held in the affirmative , were whether our good works ( viz. ) done by us only , and not by christ in us ) are the meritorious cause of our iustification , and that i undertook to prove it under tho●e terms of our good works ( in thy sense ) its all as false to the full , as the other is tru● , but if it were every whit as true , as it is utterly false , yet would not thy conclusion ( viz. that i have a pension , or am in pay from the pope ) follow from it so much as probably , as thou dotest , much less so necessarily , as throw their dotage upon thy do-little disputings , many ignorant ones , of thy instructing , do as ordinarily , as ignorantly infer it ; the falsehood of that which is false , and the inconsequence of both that which is true , and that which is false , and the utter invalidity of what is false , in case it were never so true , to prove thy charge against me of complying with , or having pay from the pope , i shall yet a little more particularly explain . . then that i have been at rome , and that in a double sense , is true enough : first spiritually , and mystically , when i was but a protestant at large , and so born and bred , as english people for the most part still are , i then dwelt together with them and you national ministers and parishpay-preachers , in the suburbs and out-works of that great city rome , or mystery babylon the great , the papacy , the arch-whore , and mother of her daughters , the two younger harlots , prelacy and presbyterie , that are both separated from her bowels , and as like her in many matters ( viz. ) persecution for conscience , sucking saints blood , greediness of gain , lording it , by a lordly clergy , over the true clergy or heritage of god , parish-pay of the popes first imposing , parish-church posture of his constituting , traditional infant-sprinkling , and sundry other romish remnants , and relicks of romes religion yet abiding unabandoned , and al●o pleaded for ) as one kind of christ'n creatures , that are unlike to christ himself , can be to each other ; and as a pair of young smooth-faced sisters , — qu●bus facies non omnibus una est , nec diversa tamen , can well look like so old and wither-fac'd a mother ; in the said suburbs and out-works of which said great city , which once was in one room , but before its ruin stands divided into three p.p. parts , canina utentes facundia , barking and concar●ing together by the ears with one another , and like some old bawd and her two b●ats b●awling and breaking each other to pieces about their bastardy , ye dwell to this day , not only being in the same inward , but in somethings also in the same outward form and image , while ye hold your pontifical orders , by vertue of which you so pope it in your parishes , from such presbyters , as had theirs from the prelate , who had theirs from the arch-prelates , who had theirs from the pope by lineal succession , who had his , as the great whore hath , rev. . from the beast that bears her , who rev. . had his from the devil or dragon , who whether he had his power , seat , and great authority from peter or no , credat apella . . that i have been bodily in rome literally , so cal'd , * as i did not , so i do not deny , and that ( as its evident , by what of mine is extant against the c.c. clergy , i have done here ) so i bore my witness against the pope and cardinals there , in such wi●e as i was cal'd to do , i might make manifest here , were i so minded , but need not fo●asmuch as ( though we●●hercock-like , thou pre●ently upon it go'st about to deny , and disprove it again , as unprobable ) yet thou seemest first both to believe and prove it to be probable thy self , for thou saist , the qua , did report it of me , and thou supposest they would not bely me ; and that i am since in safety from their hands , thy self hast seen , i● thou canst believe thine own eyes ; but what of all this ? doth all or any of this minister to you ministers , who make so much of it that way , any just matter of crime , whereupon to accuse me at all , or any matter of probable proof of so high a crime , as ye and your self-like people are ever charging me with , of complying with , and of being in orders and pay from the pope ? among many hundreds of iews , the truth hath been testified to openly in their synagogues and streets of their cities , in rome , and el●ewhere , and yet being in safety from them hath been witnessed ; the truth hath been testified in turkie , yea by the power of god to some great bashaws , and to the very grand seg●ior himself , and his councell , by some of the servants and hand-maids of the lord , on whom , in these dayes he pours out of his spirit , who by the same power of god have with such re●pectful usage , as will shame england old and new especially , if it look not to it in time , been dismissed peaceably from their presence ; doth this prove the qua. complyance in their several superstitions with either the iews or turks respectively ? i trow not : yet heu quam facile est invenire baculum ad caedendum canem ? when men have once an ill name ( as the proverb is ) they are half hang'd , so that evil shall be ever charged upon them for doing good ; when for being christ friends , they become enemies to the world , who hates him , and for his sake are hated as a dog , how easie is it for the worlds own children , not only to find a quarrel against them , but a cudgel also to beat them at their pleasure ? for mark how matter of accusation it self is made by our priests of our having been at rome , and declaring there against popery , and under that protection , we went out in , returning safe again into england , which is now laid to me as a crime , witness thy words , ( viz. ) t.d. as to the matter of which s.f. was accused , part of it he denied not , namely tha he had been at rome . rep. had i been executed there , as i might have been , if the lord had not kept me , it had satisfied some parish preachers and others here very well , who though they seemed to congratulate my well coming home , yet were more merry when they heard i was hang'd or hew'd to pieces ; but now i am as well , as some smooth tongues seem to wish me , t is hardly well with them , while it s well with me ; so that if they had advantage would not be slack to make use thereof to have execution against me here : so that i may safely say , lord , where should the witnesses of thy truth be safe , or have a quiet being if not in thee ; who when they go into other nations , are in danger to lose their lives as hereticks and church-wasters , and when they return , if the malice of their own counmen might be permitted to prevail , are in perils of being hang'd nearer home , as i●suits or such as are in pay and orders from the pope ; while 't was both heard and hoped , i were never likely to come safe back again from out of the paw of that romish ro●r●ng lyon , 't was counted no crime by the clergy , even at rome it self , to bear testimony against it , but sith it s seen i had no harm there , it must be thence granted that i did some , and that a mans being there only , is crime enough to be accus●d on , and not only so , but some eminent evidence of such another high crime as by the law , as it yet stands , were it made good against me , cals for no less then handling with an english halter : so ( in summe ) say some of our english seminaries , whose voice is smooth as iacobs , but their hands ever rough as the hands of esau. . but be it as high a crime as it will for such as here protest against the pope to visit rome , i can do so much good at least against their evil , as to excuse my cheif accusers , and as candidly to clear our clergy of it , as several of them continually are charging me therewith ; yea i am perswaded , that our english clergy are as clear in their consciences from the guilt of that crime , and as fearful of that fault , and as free from the thoughts of committing such a thing as travelling to rome to tell the truth , as they are far from it in their persons , while they are preaching against it in their parishes : and as they are far from consenting to it , and calling for it that the iews may come into england , in order to their coming to the truth , for whose coming to it , they are always calling upon god. there is little posting to preach abroad by these fixed stars , the stand stiff like posts in their own places : let those wandring stars say they ( not considering that the vagabonds and wandring stars to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever , are such as wander with cain from the light of god , and not to and fro to preach the gospel ) let the qua. gad about and gang to rome , or where they will , wee 'l be none of their gang ; and as for money there 's little need for them to run so far as rome for pay , to receive his pensions from the pope himself , having it nearer home . it is enough for our parochial priesthood to receive the romish pay of parsonages , vicaradges , curateships , glebe-lands , tithes , add other of romes bonifaces benefices , and benedictus's blessings in their native nation , and have the popes pensions and their part of peters patrimony for preaching against the pope , and peter too in the popes old mouldy mass-houses to his own parochially moulded churches . it s enough for them to abide here , praying down antichrist , and praying home the iews , and preaching against the qua. while they go out against him , as siders with , and upholders of him as much as against antichrist himself , and cry out against those that go out ( as the lord moves ) to cry in the iews , as one with the i●ws ( for so i. o. saith the qua. are ) in enmity to the scripture , and as wor●e then the very iews themselves . o lord god forgive , cease this i bessech thee , by whom shall iacob arise , for he is yet small , by whom shall the romane antichrist fall , for he is yet great ; when such as call themselves , thy messengers , will neither go on thy errand or message themselves , nor quietly suffer tho●e messengers of thine , that are made willing to it by thy power , but are still-crying out to thee to bring down antichrist , and bring in the iews , and yet crying out against those , that go out , as from thee , to bring in the one , and bring down the other ? but by this time i suppose , that as the true israel and clergy that is of god , do little less then abhorre to see it , so some of their own folds do smile more then they 'l seem to do , to hear their clergy calling and sounding out to god in their sundry synagogues , lord discover the skirts of that scarlet whore of rome , and yet not renouncing , but reverencing the reliks , and doing homage to the very hem of it to this day , and hating those as her friends , and their enemies , that seek to rent it all along as far as from rome it self to the very scarlet rags and remnants thereof , that are yet remaining in their own nation and universities . gather in thy ancient people the iews , and yet neither going out to gather the iews ; nor giving way to the iews , when they would , to gather so much as into england , that they might be gathered to the lord ; let thy gospel run and be glorified , when yet it may run far enough , before these lovers to sleep in a whole skin are free to follow in the service of it , any further then they can serve their own interest by it , and make more gain of it to themselves . though then such as viam vel invenient , vel facient , & flectere fi nequeunt superos , acheronta movebunt . if they cannot fairly find it , as from god , will rather rake h●ll and skim the devil ( as the proverb is ) then want wherewith to accuse the servants of the lord , do make it a matter of accusation for them to have been at rome , and matter of argumentation to that greater evil of complying with , and receiving pension from the pope , to bear any witness safely against him there , yet is there no just ground whereon to make either a matter of fault of the one , or a matter of faith of the other : and howbeit that faithless generation of men cal'd ministers , who fear to follow christ any further then he feeds them aforehand with full assurance of life , and outward livelihood , believe it well nigh impossi●le , at least improbable to come safe from rome , without complying with the antichristian faction , and i my self , who know more then they of this , will yield thus much to them , that to such as consult with flesh and blood in themselves , or in fleshly friends ( whose councel had we heeded , when we were more then half way towards rome , we had certainly either not gone thither , or not return'd without that complyance ) it s not a little unlikely ; whereupon we were all the way deliver'd up unto death within ourselves , and by our selves counted as sheep for the slaughter , that were marching into the very month of the lyon , yet so far is this from being of force to infer what thou in thy fleshly fancy fetcheft from it , ( viz. ) a probability of our complyance with that popish faction , that to a true spiritual understanding an evident argument it is rather of a more then ordinary hand of providence held over us , and of another kind of presence , protection and powers being with and upon us in our obedience to god , who sent us in that service ( to whose name only , and not at all to us , for ever be the glory of it ) then that which you witness in your self-saving , self-serving , and easie exercise , sith in his name , spirit , light power , dread and fear , we not only undertook , but were kept safe'in the undertaking of that , which your selves neither dare , nor can believe , ye can likely do without your own ruin and destruction ; and some of this i declared openly at the dispute to thee , t. d. and all the rest , and much more would i have declared in satisfaction to that auditory , when the foresaid accusation was under consideration , but that , to the shame of your small patience in a thing that so neerly concern'd thy self and them , ye utterly refus'd to hear me clear my self , and the truth to the full in that particular ; which had ye heard me out in , ye had hindered that your hasty stumbling at me , whereby ye also are fallen into your printed folly , which is now making manifest to all men ; but now ye have judg'd neither rightly , because rashly without hearing all that was to be heard on either side , nor yet the right thing , but a very lye ; for i am no sidesman with the papists , and if i were , yet you judging me , after you had refused to to hear me , are unjust nevertheless in so doing : for qui statuit aliquid parte inaudita altera , aequum licet statuerit , ●aud ●quus fuerit . but alas as thou t. d. sayst p. . not more proverbially , then improperly of r. h. i must say properly of thee and thine , who so bold as blind byard ? in a land of uprightness , ye will judge and deal unjustly , and will not behold the majesty of the lord ; when the hand of the lord is lifted up , ye will not see , but ye shall see and be ashamed of your envy at his people , the fire of your own envy shall devour you : but thou o lord wilt ordain peace for us , for thou also hast wrought all our works in us , isa. . , , , . glory , glory be to thy holy name therefore for ever . thus far as to the inconsequence of one of t. d's . arguments , to prove me to be a pensioner to the pope , and a complyer with him , and his cardinalls at rome , the antecedent of which ( viz. ) that first , i was at rome , secondly bare my witnesse against them there , thirdly came away safe , is not onely true , but trebble , yet not strong enough to draw on his heavy lead'n conclusion . but t. d. being loath to venture the whole stresse of his cause upon so slender a trebble string as that , hath many more strings yet to his bow , with all which notwithstanding he shoots too short to hit the mark ; though , if that will do him any advantage , i shall strengthen his weak and brittle fidling strings , as well as i can by twisting two or three more of them together . next then i shall try what can be made of these concurrences , ( viz. ) first , my having no vissible estate . secondly my having as good bills of exchange as most gentlemen ( as he calls them , though i call all men so that are so gentle as not to backbite , and no more so save such as will not ) that travail , in my late travail to constantinople , and from thence to rome . thirdly , my now having great bills of exchange from a quaking london merchant , so that i may take up l. if i will. that this triune antecedent may be of the more credible uncontroleaable and unconquerable force to draw men into a beleef of the conclusion , there is not t. d.'s bare ipse d●xit only for it , b●t each thread of it is backt ore again from breaking by the credibility of the testimony that attends it ; the first ( quote he ) is well known , as if it needed no proof , being of it self obvious to all men ; the second he hath from very good hands ; the third , the two credible men of sandwich ( who yet have crackt their credit so with me , that i shall hardly heed them again in hast ) were credibly informed of it as dunki●k ; this looks like some threefold cord that is not easie to be broken ; yet for all this , all this will be found but as toe towards t. d.'s business for to say the truth , it s but a meer trinity of tales , and not of truths . . ( whether it be better or worse the more honour , or the more shame for me that i so have , it best concerns my self to examine ; for , as it was best of all with him , who while the foxes had holes , and fowls of the aire nests , had not where to lay his head ; so t' was well enough with them that had , and may be with such as now have ( if they find their call is so , to leave all and follow christ ) neither scrip nor sh●s , nor mony in their purses , and no more then the cloaths to their backs , for they lacked nothing , yet so it is and well known to my selfe , and some ( as well known as 't is to t.d. and his earewigs that i have none ) that , though my estate lyes much more in invisibles , then in visibles , i have some visible estate ; and that to the full as much for my self and mine , as i either need or much desire ; and how beit i have not perhaps so much as t.d. nor as i.o. who besides that rich possession he counts upon in his hebrew punctation ( of which more anon ) had lately ( but now i hear he is turned out of it ) a deanry of many hundreds , per annum , yet est mihi far modicum purum et sine labe salinum : humilique loco sed certa cedet sordida parvae fortunae domus . and that i have no more then i have , it is ( under god ) at my own choice , having long since , for a good conscience sake , laid down twice more then that which comes in to thee t.d. by preaching , and refufed the profer of much more since , both of that and of another nature , and , if i had none at all , i need not run to rome , having , were i so mindfull of such outward estate as i came out of , an opportunity still to return , and being , if i could make shipwrack of the faith for it , as many do , & were as much given to climbing & clambering , as most of you are , as capable to receive in england , either that popish pay , and preferment ye still stand in , and i freely fell from , as ye yet are , or as my self ever have been in dayes of old , or that of another sort , that is in no wise of the pope , which yet i trust i shall chuse pulse and water rather then forgo the truth , as some self-seekers do , to partake in secondly , how credible ●oever it is here asserted by thee for truth , as a thing received from ve●y go●d h●rds , yet 't is not true that is here related , for i had no bill of exchange at all with me when i went out of england , neither had i ever any bill of exchange from any place at all to constantinople , nor any at all from constantinople to rome , and this i leave to tho●e very good hands , from whence thou had it this false report , to make it good i partly guess what ground this guilty goodly geere grew up from , but i am not minded at this time to help lyars in their lyes , while ●●ee they love them , let them help one another , and wrestle themselves out from the mists of their own misreporting , & from the f●gge of this piece of f●lshood , if they can ; i f●nd no more to do at pre●ent , then to deny it to be truth , as it s told by them . thirdly , how credibly soever the same witnesses , t. f. t. b. whom thou callest honest and credible men , were credibly inf●rmed at dunkirk , that i have , yet i neither had at d●nkirk , nor have had since , nor yet have ( what i may have , lawfully enough , if need be , is another case , but nothing to thee nor thy ill cause , nor to any man el●e but those , that , as little estate as i have , being con●●dent of my faithfullness , dare trust me so farr ) any bill of exchange at all , by which to ●ake up ● or pence either at my will : which faltering of thy so g●●d , honest , and credible witness●s in each tittle of their testimony , that is exhibited to the world in this tripple piece of tittle tartle , from which yet thou concludest the things they testifie to be ipso facto ) well known , i notifie to the world so much the rather , as i have done here ( or else i should for my own part have pay'd it with thinking only , and let it pass ) that men may know the better how to beleive thee and them in other things , when ye shall happen with lyes to wrong the truth another time . but since i have taken on me to take ●o much notice of it , let 's examine what to the utmost can be made thereof ; which is just nothing at all towards t. ds. purpose in propounding it ; in omuch that i may truly say of this his treble conference , of which his confidence is , that it s so credible , that it gives neither le●s nor more , then almost an incredible and inconceiveable influence towards the inference of his most confident , and almost as incredible conclusion , so that no wise men can , yea the most wise men are , the le●s they can from t. ds. premi●es give credit to it , or conceive it , or not conceive rather the contrary to be true ; for as from such matters as are false ( as i said above ) no thing that is true can be concluded , in which respect alone these lyes and lying fables can be of no possible force to inferr my living upon the p●pes p●ns●on to be a truth , so if they were all as undoubted and certaine truths , as 't is most certain they are all but sigm●nts , or at the best but , m●s● eports , they could none of them at all inferr that , but some of them would inferr the very contrary to that , which t.d. with so much confidence concludeth from them , to the deluding of all people , that are given over to delusion to beleive lyes , to beleive that lye of me , that i am , in pay from the pope , as the iews by the like unlikely and silly inference of the souldiers , whom the priests so to argue against it , were deluded from believing that truth concerning christ ( viz ) that he arose from the dead . oh how wonderfully michievous are misreports unto the truth , when men , who receive not the love of it , that they may be ●aved , are given over of god to give heed to them , that they may be damned , because they take pleasure in unrighteousness , and have no pleasure in the truth ? his di●ciples say they came and stole him away while we slept , here is the fictitious and forcible antecedent , therefore he arose not from the dead , here is the crooked conclusion , which that other was so cogent to make the people close with in their consciences , and take for truth . piteous premis●● , plain enough to be ●een by men , whose eyes were not out , to be meerly forged and of little force ; for if they were awake , and on their watch , as 't was fit for a court of guard to be , they might have rescued him from his disciple , that were unarmed men , but if they were asleep , as they say they were , is the testimony of those men fit to be entertaind for truth , or of force among any but such infatuated fancies , as every ignis fatuus befooles into a following of it self , wheresoever it goes before them , that stand up to beare witness of what was done while they were asleep ? yet how strongly and strangely did this filly shift work upon the misbeleiving faculty of that foolish nation , to the finall falsifying of their faith , in so high an article of it ? insomuch that as that saying is commonly reported , so that article of christs resurrection is thereupon not beleived to this day , said the evangelists hundred years ago , and say i , who have been an eare witness of the same , to this very day , wherein we live . the like effectual operation upon the prejudicate opinions and imaginations of such people , to whom there is deceptio visus , and in whose visible faculty there 's a deep defect through their living in the night , and not loving the light , hath t. d's . mis-reports , and mis-representations of the qua. going to rome , which as little or no truth as they are of , yet ( if less then none can be ) are of less consequence to prove that he intends by them to be truth , sith of force to prove the very contrary . s. f. quoth he , hath no visible estate , hath bills of exchange to take up l. if he will , had to and from constantinople to rome bills of exchange to take up money there . therefore 't is probably as true that he there receiv'd a pension from the pope . his tripartite antecedent is as false , as the popes tripple crown is foolish , but suppose it were all as true , as 't is false , i know no hurt in it , if it were , for such as travail , whether to rome , or elsewhere , to have bills to take up money if they need it ; and what i had , or where , or from whence , or from whom , let him that lyes go look , yet ●ile tell the truth to him so farr at least , as will tell his tale to be a lye ; i had none to constantinople , nor from thence to rome , neither received i any money by any bill at rome , much less any pension from the pope , which is that he makes the consequent of the other ; so that t. d.'s . consequence is utterly inconsequent , and a most non-sensicall non sequitur . some wise man , that had been willing to know the truth , would have argued thus ad contrarium ( viz. ) he went with coals from new-castle to london , therefore 't is very probable he went not to london to fetch or to get any there . he carried great bills with him to rome , to take up mony there , therefore 't is utterly unlikely that he had any pension of his own to receive there from the pope , for then he might have sav'd his labour in the other . for verily it had been as silly and superfluous for me to have merchants bills to take up mony by at rome , had i had a pension to receive there from the pope as 't is ( as the proverb is ) to carry coals to new-castle , which what fool doth , may carry them home again , when he hath done . so then this text of t. d's triviall talk , as threefold a cord , as it may seem to him , that is not quickly broken , is indeed , though strong enough to conclude the clean contrary way , yet , as to his purpose , but a threefold thread of toe so ill spun , that it fails like flax , when it feels the fire . nevertheless note one point of doctrine more , before i quit it , that arises from it more against , then for t. d. and his fellow forgers , and foul falsifiers of the truth , i.e. that whereas the national ministry dare trust to the benevolence of their own people for outward means and maintenance , no further then they have the magistrates mittimusses to take it from their people , and raise it for them , for we may have little enough , and do full ill ( cry they ) if we stand to the good will and affections of our parishes , being it seems ( for all the shallow shews , and love-tokens , and fair words that pass between them , which buy no lands ) as little affected by their people , as their people are trusted by them , for each of them love money , much more then they love each other ; yet such love , credit , and confidence in each others faithfulness , there is among the ministers of truth , and the children of it ; that they , that for the gospels sake , chuse to have little of their own in their ministry to it , need not lack , but serving it for its own sake , and not for hire , nor by constraint , but willingly , not for filthy lucre , but of a ready mind , may , not by force of arms , but freely , not by the greedy distraint of tythe-mongers and bumbayliffs , but willingly , have what is needed ( which is not so many 's by the year as the priests , that , stirring not far from their own fires , need it not , are ever needing ) in the service of the truth ; and rather then it shall want promoting for lack of so much , no less then li at once , if they please . t. d. another of t. d's antick autecedents from whence he endeavours ( as by the rest he doth tooth and nail ) to evidence me to be of the popish faction , is , that i affirmed my self to be above ordinances , saying , there 's no more use of them in this life to some , then of a candle , when the sun shines , instancing in baptism and the lords supper . rep. in which antecedent , this is utterly false at least , ( though affirmed by t. d. and his sides-men ) ( viz. ) that i said of my self , that i am above ordinances : i use not to bear testimony to my self , but to the truth , unless where the truth is so much concern'd ( as it is in my clearing of my self from the clouds , that not only i , but that also comes under through your lyes that are told , and attend me in the service of it , in the case in hand ) neither in the point of perfection ( which if i be but moved to speak the truth in , presently cry the blind leaders , and the blind whom they lead , he faith he is perfect ) did i ever say of my self , that i am perfect , but of myself and alme● , that so we should be , even in this life , and may be too , if we be not wanting to our selves , and must be also , or else shall never be , as our heavenly father is perfect ; and as for my self by the grace of god , i am what i am , and what ere i am , where i am , you are not , though what , and where you are , both as to this wo●ld , and that to come , i have been now long ago : neither as to ordinances , did i ever say i was above them , i should not a little bely my self in so ●aying , and that i have little need at all to do , being bely●d mo●e then enough already both by your selves , and others ; for to meet and wait with his saints on the lord , to stand in his councel , and receive his word from his mouth , to learn of christ in silence with all subjection , to hear his voice , which his sheep only hear , though swinish scribes may search the scriptures , to enter by him , who is the door , to bear hi● cu●●● , and follow him , to pray , preach , write , dispute , and do all , that i am cal'd to , in the l●ght , in the movings of his spirit , the●e all , and an hund●ed more , that might be nam'd , are ordinances of god , which i am under , and yourselves above , who are clambering up another way in your own thoughts , counc●ls , wisd●m , and understanding above his light in the conscience , that is the door , which till ye lofty over-lookers of it , the flying fowls of the air , the h●gh-flown climbers above , vouchsafe to stoop , and come down to , ye shall never enter into the sheepfold ; finally a holy life , and that pare religion , that is undefiled before god ( while all the religion of imture unbridled lya●s , wantons , wordlings , &c stinks before him , and is defiled ) which is to keep a mans self unspotted of the world , also to do good works , to be zealous of good works , to be rich in good works , to be w●ll reported of for good works , to shew our selves paterns of good works , to learn to maintain , be careful to maintain good works , as necessary , which ●ome ( because o v r works , none of which are good , the best of which are all evil , further then wrought in christ the light , and by christ in us , are of none ) would make of none effect , as to our acceptance with god , and to walk in the good works , which in christ iesus , who●e workma●sh●p we are , we are created unto , which god hath before ordained , that we should walk in them , eph. . . the●e are ordinance of god , which 't were well for you all , if you were as much under the observance of , as ye are under the obliui●n of , which i neither did , nor do , nor dare say i am above , though as i desire i never may , so by the grace and power of christ to me ward , i do not live so far below them , as thousands do , who are both above , and below them also , too proud of their fine forms to be brought down to the plain power , and too much sunk down over head and ears in earth , lust , luxury , love of money , pleasure , wordly-mindedness , and buried in blindness , brutishness , and sensuality to be brought up , and rais'd into any heavenliness of conversation , yet all crying out of them as denyers of gods ordinances , that live in the very life and substance of those lifeless images and shadowy parts thereof , which they only call so . i affirm therefore here before god , and all men , that i never affirmd of my self in these terms , in which its here testifi●d ( viz. ) that i was above ordinances ; and for thy self t.d. and thy two witnesses to it , t.f. and t.b. who are three thomas'es , very fa●thl●●● , and hard to believe the truth , and for your faithlesness , as hardly to be believed , whether you will believe me , yea or nay , as its false that you here witne●s , so the witness of all three of you against me in this , will be of no more force to fright any friends of truth into the faith or belief of what you say , then so many leaps of a louse , since ye are found deceiving , or at best deceived in your other so credible information . and as for the things ( viz. ) baptism and the supper , which yourselves call ordinances , and keep such a quarter for , as if they were the main matters which god hath o●dained , which only can lay true claim to the foresaid title , i might possibly say then , as i shall plainly now , not in any way of 〈◊〉 whate●er is of god , though but as a type and shadow in its time and season , that to such as are grown throw those elementary institutions , into the life of god , which is the end , and substances they relate to , they may be usele●s , as to their own particulars , as the light of a candle , is where the sun shines ; yet i deny not the use of them to such , as are not satisfied as to the lord , unless they use them : but most people either i abu●e them and themselves in the use of them , who neither knowing their right end , nor use , nor manner of administration , do either chan●e and alter them into images of their own making , both in their subject and their form ; and thus all rantizers of infants do , and all feeders of dogs and swine with that bread and wine , which they call the supper , for these things are not that outwa●d washing and supping , which were used of old , as meer figures and images of the true , but sigments and fooleries , and images of their own imagining , not ●o much as the bodily baptism , which i●hn baptizeth with , but a trashy t●adition of man , which who so teach for a doctrine or ordinance of god , do worship god but in vain , not the true outside or shadow of the supper ( for that is not a coming together into one place ) which is to decrease and vanish before the internal and ●ternal , which increa●eth , and is to stand ; nor the external sign of the true cup and table of the lord , but in truth the very cup and table of devils , where drunkards and swerers , lustfulness , and all sorts of sinners , and walkers beside the light , who say they have fellowship with god , but lye . and have none , sit in fellowship with their father the devil . or else secondly , dote upon and idolize those graven images of their own , which if they were as truly the things in use of old , as 't is true , they are but new inventions of their own , yet , as the brazen serpent , they must be but nehush●an , when once mens hearts go a whoring after them , from that , which is the end of them all , and come not to christ iesus the image , and rigteousness of god , and to witnesse that wrought , and even him , who is that image , brought forth and formed in them ; but continue poring upon those rudiments , or , like one that falls in love with his own image in the water , and for love thereof goes down under it , and drownes himselfe therein , run down so deep into them , as to lose themselves from the other , and draw such a thick vaile over their hearts ( as the iewes ) so as not to look , much lesse enter into the end of the law of , which is to be abolished , that is of carnall commandments , contained in ordinances , which are not of the new , but of the old covenant which is long since ready to vanish , which stood in earings and drinkings , and divers baptismes , carnall ordinances , bodily exercises , outward observations , in which the kingdome of god stands not , which is in righteousnesse , peace , and joy in the holy spirit , so that he who in these things serveth christ is acceptable to god and approved of men . for those meer rites and rudiments of washing , eating , drinking had their first being , beginning , rise , and institution ( as circumcision , passeover , sacrifices and such like had ) before christ was crucified , though in regard of inability to beare the sudden abol●tion thereof by permission more then commission practised after , as circumcision , and vowes , and shavings , and some other rite ; and ceremonies were , in which case if any now will needs u●e them , i meddle not to forbid , * though he that is in the spirit and substance and not the letter of them is not out of them , but in them more truly , then he that is in them outwardly according to the letter , and not in the spirit : for they are the iewes , the circumcision , the christians , the baptiz'd ones , the suppers with the lord , the partakers of his table , who open when christ knocks , and let him in , that he may sup with them , and they with him , who rejoyce in christ iesus , and have no confidence in the flesh and worship god in the spirit , and are jewes in heart and spirit , not letter onely , when they of the letter are but the concision , that say they are iewes , christians , baptists , communicants with god , children of god , but lye and are not , but are the synagogue of satan : the end of which foresaid outward commandments is love out of a pure heart , a good conscience , faith unfained , which who serve in are the servants of god , and who swerve from , and turn aside into ●angling about the other , and are zealous in teaching up the law , understand neither themselves , nor what they say , nor doe , nor whereof they affirme , and are but of the gentiles , that dwell in the outward court , which is given to them , who tread down the holy citty ; nor in the inward temple , nor of them that worship therein , not to be counted thereunto , but left out , and not measured , when the measuring line goeth out upon it to build , and rear it up again in the latter dayes . so then though i deny all the ordinances , traditions , and doctrines , wayes , and worships of men , innovated , and impos'd at their wills , as praecepts of god , yet i deny not the due use of any thing , that ever was in meer outside service required and appointed of god himself , when performed in its proper place , and season , from a right principle of inward power , to the right end , which they lead , and tend to ( viz. ) christ iesus the head , the body of those shadows , the image of god , begotten and born , not after the law of a carnal commandment , but after the power of an endless life ; after which image when men witness themselves to be truly created in righteousness , and holiness of truth , they will see how these pass away , as to the use thereof , as the moon in a morning waxes pale , and dies out , as to its shining any more before the sun ; as the lesser which must give way to the greater glory , which lesser things , while men busie themselves in , and boast of , crying the temple of the lord , are these , the tythes , offerings , new-moons , the sabbaths , the solemn assemblies , the sacrifices , the circumcision , the passeover the baptism , the supper , the services , the ordinances of the lord are these , neglecting the weightier matters , the washing , and circumcising their hearts to the lord , the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh , putting away the evil of their doings from before gods eyes ; not minding , but forgetting , breaking the everlasting , visible life , way , righteousness , kingdom , house , temple , gospel , glory , covenant , which the letter lays down , as that which all these ceremonies ( so call'd of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from their standing but for a time ) and all these meer temporals do but tend to , the lord loaths all that , which was even of his own requiring , the more men load him with it , that love not-the other , and says he required it not , he spake not of it , he would have none of it , he could not away with it , his delight is not so much in it , as in obeying , his saul hates it , he is weary to bear it , 't is the offering of swines blood , 't is the cutting off a dogs neck 't is as acceptable to him , as if one slew a man , 't is the blessing of an idol , 't is but a trusting in lying words , when trusted in , 't is an apron of fig-leaves , 't is a covering of idols , 't is a righteousness that shall not profit him , 't is a refuge of lyes , which the hail shall sweep away , 't is a hiding place which the storm shall overflow , by which shall be trodden down even all you that are hidden in it , 't is a covenant and agreement with death and hell , the drunkards of ephraim make , which must be disannul'd , and not stand , 't is a bed shorter then that a man can stretch himself on it , 't is a covering too narrow for a man to wrap himself in it , 't is a house on the sand , and not on the rock of ages , the fall of which on the head of the builders will be great , when the wind of the lords spirit comes to blow upon it , 't is flesh that must wither then as the grass and the flower of it , 't is ashur and jareb that can't cure israels wounds , 't is pharoah the broken reed that runs into the hand of the leaners thereon , 't is the egyptians and their horses , which are men and flesh , not god nor spirit ; 't is the many mountains in which salvation is hoped for in vain , 't is not the right rest to the soul , 't is the polluted rest , which , who ever is in , and first or last ariseth not above , and departs not out of , it will destroy him with a sore destruction ; 't is iniquity , 't is dung , which god will spread upon mens faces , who live like swine , yet will wallow in it , even the dung and iniquity of their solemn meetings . how untrue then thy testimony is , of my saying i was above ordinances , who am one that am under water-baptism , being once baptized , as the sprinklers of infants never were , if there were any ground of glorying in , or any stress to be put upon that , and have also used bread and wine , ( till christ , who now cometh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in myriads of his saints , came in me ) as few parish preachers do , that prattle for that supper , though christ be not yet come in them , as he will ere long come nigh to judgement ; i suppose all ( save such simplerous as either will see , or at least seem to see nothing save what their seers see ) may more easily discern then be ignorant : but suppose it were all as true that 's here told by you three thomasses , would it follow at all from hence that i probably comply with the pope , and his faction , or would it not rather free me among all ( save such as if they cannot by hooke , will needs have it so by crooke ) from all suspition of such complyance , more then such as cry out for ordinances with the pope ? yea more for meere mans ordinances too , then for gods ( viz. ) that of sprinkling , and ordinances for tribes , and maintenance , as his priests do ? is 't not a far clearer consequence to urge thus ( viz. ) the parish priestshood of england pleads for ordinances , yea for the parliments ordinances , the popes ordinances for tribes , and other things pertaining to their divine service , and their worldly sanctuary , as the pope and his priesthood doth , therefore they smell so much of popery still , that its suspitious they side too much with them still . as for me and the quakers , if any but meere partiall and unreasonable minded men , who had thought we had utterly denyed ordinances ( as yee judge we doe ) would have argued any thing at all from those thoughts of his concerning us , he would ( however minded to bely us in other matters ) have clear'd us from that censure of popery at least , by concluding from t. d's . premises the very contrary to what he infers : and instead of urging with him , he ●aith he is above ordinances , and denies the use of them , therefore i can assure the reader of the likelyhood of his complyance with the antichristian saection , * would have urged thus ( viz. ) he saith he is above ordinances ; denyeth the use of them , ( viz. ) baptisme and the supper ; therefore i may assure the reader , that there 's little or no likelihood at all of his complyance with the pope , and his antichristian faction , for they are not above those ordinances , but under the use of them . yea ( i adde ) they are so far under indeed , that is below and beneath , the true use of gods ordinances , that they are not yet ( as neither are yee ) got above the traditionary ordinances of man , but are all groping together in the dark for the wall , like them that have no eyes , and tumbling to and fro in that fogg of forefathers figments , walking and wandring to wearinesse in that , as supersti●ous , as superfluous and meere unprofitable usefulnesse of your owne . and as to that other piece of thy s●anty scripture , which , as thou saist p. , of my urging a proof that was to purpose out of the scriptures of truth , o i of that , methinks t.d. thou usherest and bringest it in with pomp and ceremony , attended with the testimony of hundreds of people , as if it would be irresistable and would not onely hit the naile , but knock it up in the head ; io. boys ch nicol ; t. focton ( an esq a minister , a magistrate , one of a sort set down with an , &c. as representatives of the rest ) may wave their witnesse , if , they will in this , for i freely subscribe to every whit of it , as a truth , sith it s told , yet will it not doe at all , as to t. d's . designe , which he there drives on against me , but will doe not a little as to my defence . t is true when at the dispute thou offeredst to read something out of amesius against bellarmine , i replyed , as sleighting such a contemptible peice of businesse , and since thou wilt so set it down ( for thy reasoning is ridiculous enough in all reason , and conscience ) with a gesture of derision ( such as that of him who sits in heaven , and smiles to see the silly shifts , and vain imaginations of those that plot , and set them●elves against him , and his anointed , or that of him that said , cry aloud for he is god , perhaps he is asleep , and must be awakened ; or that of sion , who shook her head , at hers and 〈…〉 preachers ) that 〈◊〉 held many truths , which must not be rejected 〈…〉 of god ; at which thou wast ( ut bellarminus enervatus , as one that had no more to say ( as to that matter ) for thy mouth was stopt from reading what thou intendedst , as well it might , for it would have been of as little effect to convict me of popery , with which thou confessest i was then charged , as t is for me to say no , when lyers and unbeleivers charge me with it , which avails no more ( as the proverb is ) then for one to ●ay bo to a goose. and now thou hast after thy silence , by which it was then taken for granted that thou hadst quitted me thereupon from thy rash charging me with popery , here raked it up again among thy rest of thy remarkable folly , what meanst thou by thy new mention thereof ? hast thou any more then before thou hadst ? did not cardinall bellarmine hold some truths which thou holdest , as well as some that i hold against thee , and that christ is the son god , which we both hold ? where lyes the consequence of thy argument to mine , more then to thy own complyance with that popish cardinall ? thou ownst some false apostaticall tenets that he own'd , namely that of tithes , when i own no other then his apostolicall truths ; is he not , so far , thy brother bellarmine , more then mine ? moreover as light , and little as i made of thy charge of popery , i shall make so much of my making little of it then , as now to make a weighty argument against thee from it , and conclude contrarily to thy conclusion of me from thence to bein pay from the pope , for that is not so light a matter , as the case stands here in england , that any man that 's well in his wits , and knowes himselfe to be guilty thereof , had need make light , and little of , seeing his neck lyes at stake , and his life is not a little concern'd in 't , if it can be proved . whereas therefore t. d. concludes thus of me , ( viz. ) s.f. before hundreds of people made light of the charge of popery ; therefore in all likelihood he is guilty of what he is charg'd with ( viz. ) complying with and receiving a pension from the pope . i conclude thus ( viz. ) s. f. before hundreds of people made light of his being charg'd of complying with and taking pay from the pope , which were a matter of very dangerous consequence , if he were conse●ous to himselfe of it , that any one of those hundreds , who wanted no will to it , could possibly prove it ; therefore in all likelihood there is no such matter . and as to two others of the mean mediums which t. d. makes what use he can of , to make men mistake me , to be such a complyer with the roman antichrist , ( viz. ) that i said at dunkirk , i looked upon the iesuits and friars there to be sounder in doctrine then those , he and his call the reformed churchen : ● . that the doctrines which i broach are theirs and a fair in-let to their bag and baggage ; for this last of which ( as i here expresse it ) t.d. affords the world no more proof then his own single say so ; but for the other , to advance the faith of his saint hearted reader into a full assurance of the truth thereof , that thick and threefold testimony ( viz. ) that of his single folded self , and his old pair of double 〈◊〉 ' d trustees . t. fox's ton , t. bur●●●● , who ( saving t. d's . commendation of their honesty and credibility , which that single hearted friend of truth e. burrough , with whom i went and was at dunkirk , hath seen as little of as my selfe ) have dealt more fox-like and barbarian like , then like honest and credible men , or conscientious christians with ●e , whom yet as i look for no more satisfaction from , then their subm●ssion to god , nor amends , then their amendment ; so i wish no worse to the worst of them , for the worst evill they have done to me , and the truth , then that god would grant them both true repentance to the acknowledgement thereof , that the lake of judgement , and condemnation , which must come upon all lyes and all deceit , may not , throw their continuance in impenitency therein , be the portion of their persons for ever : i say as to the two assertions above , whence he infers the foresaid charge , i deny them both as false , for i did not tell it in those termes , that the iesuits and friars are ●ounder in doctrine in grosse and in the lump , as is here falsely witnessed and related , then the reformed churches ( as yee call them ) but to this effect ( viz. ) that ( setting aside their ●ordid and ●ottish superstitions in matters of their outward worship and service , in which i acknowledged them ( though t.f. and t.b. or else thy selfe being minded to wrong me , would not vouchsafe the world an acknowledgment of all my words ) to be far more full of manifest foolery and manifold idolatry then the other ) the jesuits & friars were sounder in some doctrines , then some of the men cal'd ministers in the said reformed , but in many things still too much d●formed churches , and now with the nominations of thy self , t.d. whom i then named not , as one of those ministers , then whom ( excepting ever their gross superstition ) some iesuits and fryars , in some points of doctrine , are more reformed , i here give thee the advantage of my saying the same ore ' again , and make the best use of it thou canst , to draw from hence an assurance to thy self , and others of my probable complyance with the popish faction : i am sure thou canst draw no more then this with the best piece of twist that the best of thy brain-pan affords , that in some points i agree with them , wherein thou dissentest from them , though in most things i differ from them , and to their faces appear more against them , then thy self , * and if thou wilt have no nay , but that this must be compliance , then shake ye hands with them , and be friends , who in tithes , and twenty things more pertaining to the parish churches , wherein we contradict you both , do comply with them ; and if they that renounce them in twenty things to one , shall be counted one with them , if they agree in any thing at all , then according to the rule of quae conveniunt in aliquo tertio , &c. by my consent , qui conveniunt in aliquo uno erunt idem ; such as are disjoyned in a thousand things , and yet happen to jump together in some one , shall not only in that one respect be counted one , but in all respects whatsoever be joyned and jumbled together as all one . as to the other saying , if by broaching thou mean no other than preaching ; some doctrines i so b●oach are owned by them ; though if by broaching , thou mean bringing any new doctrine , that was not held or heard of hitherto , or in these days till i declared it de novo , i deny thy talke of my broaching , it is untrue ; for as i declare no other message or doctrine , then what was from the beginning , before the letter was , about the light and some other things , which the letter tells of , even the good old way , wherein the saints walked with god from abell , enoch , noah , and so downwards unto this day ; which way hath been much ecclipsed by the dark divinity of divines in ages past ; so the first and new venting of that old way of the light , which is new , as , by the passing of the darknesse , it begins anew to shine , was not from this earthen vessel of mine , but other vessels of honour sanctified , and fitted for the masters use , and chosen to bear his name , from whom i received it , through gods mercy in their ministry , which thou de pisest : the new wine of gods wisdom , which now vents it self , and flowes forth of the new bottles , into which god puts it , which only are capable of it ( for yee old bottles cannot contain , nor comprehend it in the blindnesse of your hearts , as the darknesse comprehendeth not the true light , that shineth in it , nor bear the infusion of any of it into your souls without bursting to pieces at the very lent thereof ) was both broach't and tapr , and tasted of by others , who came into the vinyard before me : 't is enough for me , who am lesse , then the least among the lovers of it , and was once not the least of the drunkards of ephraim , that are over-charged , intoxicated , and infatuated with that strong drink , and old wine of their own w●sdome , till they know neither where they are , nor what they say , that i have tasted it from the first hands , that in these dayes have fill'd it forth , much more , that to me this grace should be given to follow , in the free filling it forth to others , and to preach out among the gentiles in such measure , as i am enrich't therewith by the free gift of god , the unsearchable riches of christ iesus ; and if this be to breach , i breach not onely many true doctrines , but some true ones , which peradventure the papists do not deny , yet i deny my broaching of any any where , that are a fair in-let to their bag and baggage , or any part of their dark and dead devotions , trumpical traditions , and total transformations of themselves and all things ( as to the outward form of religion ) from the truth it self into ( at best ) a mear empty apish imitation of it . but the doctrines ye teach in contradiction to what the qua. preach in most things , are not only a fair in let to it , but also so fairly and fully bearing the very likenesse of it , that howbeit they that are of the night see it not , yet the children of the light , and of the day see them to be no other then some broken bits , and parts of that popery , that stood here more perfectly , and in gross once , which our priests , being loath to part with more of then they are forced to , have since parcelled for their own ends among themselves ; some chips that flew off that old block , which fled beyond sea , when 't was hewed away hence , some stumps of the old tree , under the shadow of which all england fate , as other people yet do , out of the sight of the sun of righteousnesse ; some fragments of the fryars faith , some shreds , odde ends , old remnants , rotten rags and re ikes of the old whores skirts , which rome left behind her for hast , when she ran a way hence , which our english princes , priests and people so ran a whoring after , that they could never find in their hearts to send them away after her to this very day ; and in a word no other then the very fag end of her bag and baggage . first , our doctrine of perfect purging from sin in this life , is no in-let to it , for the papists are far enough ( as ye are ) from the belief of that , upon the non-belief of which in this life they build that piece of baggage viz. a purgatory in the life to come ; which though ye cry out of as popish , yet while you hold with them , against us , no perfect purging from sin , in this world , and say worse then they do in defiance of that holy truth , which we stand in defence of ( for so ye do while ye call it a doctrine of devils ) yee unavoidably usher in that of purgatory in the world to come ; unless ye will fain another world wherein the perfect purgation must be , which is neither this world nor that to come , which were a chimera as bad as purgatory , or say there 's no perfect purging at all , which were worse , you must by your denyal of the perfection of it here , establish a basis for that baggage to abide firm upon , and open a door so wide , for its entrance and entertainment as to let in the popes purgatory whether ye will or no. . our doctrine of freely yee have received freely give , and of preaching the gospel without mony and without price , and going forth for christs names sake taking nothing of the nations , our crying out as the true pastors and prophets did against the hireling shepheards , that like greedy dumb dogs , that cannot bark , unless it be against the truth , but bite shrewdly , when they are not fed , and yet never have enough , but are ever seeking every one his gain from his quarter , and our talking against tithes , and the pay of parish priests , which is originally of the pope and not after christ and such like , this is no fair in-let to the popish priesthoods bag , nor yet any of his baggage , but much rather a shutting out of them both , for sure enough no more wages , no more work for a masse priest here , nor any where else ; no means , none of the popes ministries ; nor ministrations ; no money no men , that will preach without it ; no popish parish pay , no more popish : parish pasture , nor parish formal prayer ; no reaping the clear tenth of corn , without a farthing charge , more then it costs to carry in ( which is the sixth of the nations grain at that rate ) and the cream and quintessence of all other carnal things , no seminary seeds men , of that sort , to sow such earthen heavenly things , such meer fleshly spirituallities , as the spirits of that spiritually are fully fraught with : no room for the rest of romes religion , where taking of tithes , and raking in the revennue may not be a prime part thereof ; keep out the wide mouth'd bag of all the lord beggers , and they 'l never burden england , so much as these have done , with their far fetcht dear bought baggage : but the english priesthood preaching for hire , and divining for money , and taking of tithes as aforesaid ; and talking for them , and gaping after the gain thereof , and augmenting their arguments , and hideous outcryes for augmentations out of the antichristian treasury of deans and chapters lands , and powerfull pleadings for the popish pensions of parsonages , vicaradges and curat-ships , &c. and seeking , and suing for such superstitious emoluments , and uncessant , and unfatiable callings out more maintenance , more maintenance , this is not onely a fair in-let to the popes bag , but also no small part of his baggage , whereby his bag is upheld , which receiprocally upholds his baggage ; for these two are the mutual [ in-lets and upholders of each other , and as 't was said of old , two good livings , which some mongril presbyterian-independants can digest yet , are a good step toward a lord bishop , which is not far from an arch-prelate , so how an arch-bishop at canterbury is next to the arch bishop at rome , may be seen by such as have read how that heavenly pope calestine set anselm , arch bishop of canterbury , at his right foot in a general councel , saying includamus hunc in orbe nostro tanquam alter us orbis papam , we must in our world count upon him , as a certain pope of another world . our doctrine against infant sprinkling is no fair in-let thereto , for that is another part of his baggage , that supports several other parts of it , which together with it support his bag ; which take away , and his national and parochial churches fall , in the fall of which much more rubbish and baggage of his fals with it , which wont to fill the bag ; yea and much mony fails , and goes beside the mouth of it , which was paid for mortuaries , dirgis deprofundis , &c. in the dismal dayes of his darkest dominion here , besides the refuse of the cross , and the gossips , with whom at their gossippings the priests had many good sippings , their wonted fees for christnings , churchings , &c. in the late time of the font and canonicall coat & the white surplice ; and not a little might be better spared , then so ill spent , as it hath been , since the bason began and the white surplices are left off , among the men that are yet too much for their black superfluities , whose vniversity superstitious snapsacks bear a great portion of , and not a little proportion to the forenamed baggage : but such a practice as pleading for sprinkling of babes , which is a tradition little better than their sprinkling of bells ( in their works ) gives a fair in-let , or at least forbids the out-let of not a little of the antichristian bag and baggage ; though ( in their words ) they would fain seem wholly to renounce it . . our doctrine against persecution is no in-let thereto ; for the bloody tenets of inquisitions , burnings , headings , hangings , quarterings , &c. in that case of conscience , are ( as iachin and boaz were before the true temple of god , ( that is by interpretation ) establishment and strength the most proper props of the popes temple , and all its trumpery , the' most principal pillars that all his stuff stands on ; the bottome of his babilonish building , by which poor people are so frightned into a blind obedience , and conformity thereunto , that whatever appears of truth to them within , they dare not appear to obey , nor so much as peep forth into any prosession thereof , without , but before there is any thing born up to suffer for it , they are quickly cut off , and , as hernicks , soon handled to dust and ashes , which most beastly part of it all the rest of his babilonish baggage , when ever it shall happen to be removed , all the rest runs immediately to ruine . but the doctrine and practice of hating and hunting the saints to and fro as harmless hares , hauking after them ( as saul after david ) as partridges about the mountains , from court to court , from commitee to commitee , for their flesh and their egges , that the tithe , or else the price of the tith of their egges , and geese , and hens , and piggs , and lambs , and calves , and their other commodities also ( viz. ) corn , and hemp , and hey , and hops , and pears , and plums , and apples , and other fruits of their lands , in which their ministers labour not , may take a trebble turne through their teeth , and that of laughing , mocking , scoffing , scorning , ●●uring , houting , holding , haling , beating , kicking , di●ring , stocking , stoning , pumping , prisoning , bocardo●ng , fining , banishing , bridling , bridewelling , branding , boring , pilloring , ga●ging , eare marking , nose flitting , scourging , cutting , slashing , hanging , and such like , which have been used of late , yet i must needs say not altogether so much conniv'd at , and countenanced by the magistracy , that is supream corrective , as caused and encouraged to by the ministry , which takes upon it still in such matters to be supream directive in these , which ye call the reformed churches , i say the doctrine and practice of such inhumanity as this , which some teachers and doctors in divinity , the dark places of whose earthly hearts are too full of the habitations of cruelty , as well in old , and specially new-england , as in italy , france , and spain , both have and yet do plead , and in some part practice against the truly tender conscientious lambs of christ , whereby we may ( as ex pede herculem , ex ungue leonem * ) ee what kind of wild beasts of the forrest they yet are , that love christs little flock , ( not to feed , but to feed on ) with all their hearts , are a fair inlet to the marian baggage of fire and faggot , for not owning the roman faith , if the magistrates do not save their longing , and forbid the marching of it in , more then the ministers , that are ever and anon facing about and marching the old way ; being indeed but the dragons tayle , the s●ing whereof reaches still as far as england , though his head he as far off as rome ; a little of levia●han , that crooked serpent , which he left when he went away to let in himself by into these nations at his return again ; and the tayle , or some gentle shatterings of that sharp shour , and sturdy storm , which fell down in greater drops of blood , and flakes of fi●e in the days of her dominion here , and not only so , but a fair pretence for papists to bolster themselves up by , in their persecutings of such as go now to tell the truth to them in their own countryes : for to my knowledge it s none of the least pleas , they now have in other nations , both protestant and popish , for the groslest abuses they can do to the qua. in whom else they see no harm , but as from hence they are made to suspect it , to say , thus and thus they do to you in your own country of england , where you are well known , therefore no marveil if we do thus unto you here . and that the divines old and young , not only have been in the darker , but are even in these brighter times of protestanism it self , so deeply accessary to , and guilty of the aforesaid sufferings , witnesse the barbarous , basenesse acted and inflicted on the witnesses to the lords truth , not onely in all other quarters of this nation ( to say nothing of new-england , scotland , ireland ) but also at the two eyes , and well heads of divinity , and nurseries of learning and true religion , ( as they are call'd ) as well oxford , as cambridge , as they stand extant to the view of all the world , ( as most of that of other places and cities do ) in sundry printed relations , and testimonies thereof , the reading whereof may well take hold on all tender hearts , and draw tears from their eyes , to see the lamentable injuries , and abominable iniquities done to the saints , by those painted sepulchers , in a land of such godlinesse as this pretends to . witnesse also that divine doctrine of that divine doctor owen , with whom i have here to doe , in the dayes of whose vice chancellorship , what influence was given by him toward the oxford persecutions , he knows as well as others ; and what influence his doctrine might have upon the powers , to whom he often preached , to the stirring them up to more persecution then they were free for , if god had not made them wiser then their teachers , all may see , that can read it from his hand in his latine divine d●sputation , which i am to talk with , where p. . ( his own words in the margin above truly englished ) he teacheth thus though no men could ever yet tax them with stirring against the state. ( viz ) that the qua. are not perfect , nor come to christ in glory , their lyes , deceits , wickednesses , hypocrisy , are evident testimony unto us ; but indeed those punishments , and imprisonments , which they voluntarily pull upon themselves by their tumultuousnesse , of which they ●●manishly complain , ought of right to be inflicted upon them , who impudently glory that they are free from all these , and other sins , even the least - so far forth as this peice containes i. o's . false accusation of the qua. and pertaines to the point of perfection it may possibly come to account again in other places , more proper for it then this : it s here related , as to that relation that it bears onely to the point of persecution : in which capacity , who so is capable to see it , may perceive by the paw he here puts forth , what prey i. owen lack and how ( like them of old who cloathd christians with wilde beasts skins , that they might seem to the dogs to be such , and so expos'd-them to dogs to be baited ; or covered them all ore with draff and swillings , and then threw them to the swine to be devoured ) so he first ( fortiter accuset ) loads the quakers with calumny , and layes ( lyingly ) heavy things to their charge , and then ( magistraliter satis , ministerialiter magis ) as authoritatively as that whole tribe which must ever be in such supremacy , as to direct , till they come to correction themselves , gives out what ought to be done with them , by such as were onely us'd to correct hereticks at their appointment . the doctrine then of persecution as taught and learnt , too much , to this day by our english reformadoes from ramish rubbish , is not onely a retaining of much of , but an open dore for the rest of the popes baggage to return by as the times turn ; but our innocent tender tenet of liberty of conscience * is so averse to , and inconsistent with it , as that it turns it all up by the very roots . and whereas it may be objected , that a pleading the universality of liberty may seem to be an in-let to popery very much , for if you would have toleration for all , then how will you keep out the papists bag and baggage ? rep. i answer not with the carnall weapons of your warfare , but with a sharper sword then that , whereby you and they seek to keep out the truth , even that with edges , the light , and spirit of the living god , which goeth out of his mouth , who is call'd the word of god , who will go on conquering and to conquer all the vain imaginations in the hearts and consciences of men , to cast down the strong hold of the prince of darknesse , in the might and power of god , and captivate every high thing that exalts in selfe against the knowledge of god , and every thought to the obedience of himselfe , and avenge all that disobedience of his adversaries , whose ministry further then by his own permission it s born down by that extrinsecall force of the beasts putting forth , and interposing for a time , will make its own way , and cleare the truth , as the light , both amongst and against all false ones , without either maintenance or defence , or so much as good countenance ( if that may not be had ) from the higher powers of the earth ; being such a substantive , as is well able , if let alone , and in the midst of not a little interruption , to stand by it self in reason before any , and not such a noun-adjective , as the national● c clergy is , which cannot stand by itself to shew one glasse full of its own sense , and meaning on the scripture , without some constable or officer joyning with it to take that honest man or woman to the stocks or cage , that by two or three good words shall disturb them ; nor stand by it self to shew its reason or signification to such as soberly reason with it , but must require another force then that of words to resist , and sometimes the rude ones to run with stones , and stop the mouths of its opponents . not by might nor power of this sort , but by my spirit , saith the lord. that dagon , that cannot stand unless its worshippers hold it up in this manner before the ark , undoutedly will fall , and let it fall if it will , and never rise any more for me . and if papists , iews , and turks , being obedient to the civill power in civill matters between man and man , shall come in and u●e their blind consciences , in their respective blind religions , they shall deceive not one of the elect , and none but such as are disobedient to what they know ●for which to stumbling they are appointed : that protestanism that can't stand if popery , indaism , and turcism have liberty , till it fall by the pure power of god , and not meer man , to stand peaceably by it in one nation , for fear it should dye out before them , let it dye out with them all , when the lord will , for me , that truth , which is to out-shine , and out-live them all , may stand up alone in its proper power and native lustre when they are gone ; as for such protestants as would run to hell with them , if papists , turks and iewes should come among them , they are onely such as would never come neer to heaven , if these should never come neer them at all . . our doctrine of the true lights enlightning every man , ( the truth of which is to be prov'd against i. o. and t. d. in its proper place ) and our calling every man to attend to the shining of it in his own conscience , can be no fair in-let to the popish bag and baggage , for all that arises and springs from the cloudinesse of their consciences , the blindnesse of their hearts , the darknesse that is in their understandings , in which darknesse , or dark places , which are in the heart , the true light shines , though the darknesse comprehends it not , and the da●k minds of men consider it not , which if they would once doe so well as to take heed to , the day would dawn , the day star arise at last in their hearts , the light shine forth , the shadowes fly away , the clouds scatter , the vaile that overspreads them vanish , the face of the covering be removed , the da●knesse of this world , in which the devill , who is the prince and ruler of it , dwells , diggs , deceives , devoures , destroyes , udoes , does all he has to doe , who hath nothing in christ the light , nor ought to doe in them , that dwell out of his reach under christs protection in the l●ght , would be dispeld , and the b●●ghtness● of a better religion , worship , gospell , faith , knowledge , righteousn●sse , holynesse , salvation , redemption , kingdome , then any power and glory they yet are aware off , or your selves either , would break forth upon them . but such as your tenet is , who rebell against the light , not knowing the pa●hs the●e●f job . . . and band yourselves together against the blowers of it up in men , to blow it out what yee can , denying it to be , in any measure at all , in any but very few , quarrelling with the quakers for calling any , much more all to take heed to it , that they might walk up in singlenesse , to to what of god by it is made known in them , doth both river england into a resolution to retain so much of romes bag and baggage as is yet remaining , and into their and the priests wonted readinesse to receive more or all of it again , if it shall so return , as in ma●yes day●s , and be handed out to them by the threatning helping hand of those , that have the highest handling of the helm . . our doctrine of the infallibility of the true ministry of christ , which we say is that , which is among them call'd quakers in these dayes , as in those of old , can be no fair in-let to the antichristian bag and baggage or to those ministries or ministrations ; for to teach ( which is not more taught by me , then shall be proved against i. o. and t. d. who both deny it , more at large in its proper place ) ( viz. ) that the infa●●ible spirit continues his infallible direction , guidance and divi●e inspirations to the true minist●y and church , which waits upon him now in such wise as heretofore , is so far from leting in , that it shuts out for ever , their m●nist●y , & all its a coutrements , as false & fictitious , and yours also , who , as to your confessed fallibility , are bi●ds of the same feather with them , who as in that ye flock , so must flee and fall , and fail all together ; seeing ( saving onely that they ascribe infalibility to their vice-god the pope , as yee doe not , and ch●ists spirits inspirations to his single sacred soul ) they count it egregi●us blasph●my for any minister or other to say they have the holy spirit , so onely as to assure them of gods love and acceptance , much more to make them infallible in their ministry ; and though you hold men may have it to assure them of salvation , yet as to it s assumed and infallible guidance of your selves in yours , or any men at all in their ministrings now , you count it little lesse then the same , and differing so as to the matter of the ministry , no further from them , then thus ( viz. ) that whereas they hold infallibility ●omewhere ( but falsely enough fixing it to that false subject , the breast of their arch-bish●p , vicar● of christ and supream master-minister ) here on earth , yee deny it to be in an● ministers at all now , to the utter u●m●nistring of your selves , and evincing it yee are none of christs , any more then they . but so to teach that all ministries , that pretend to christ , are fallible in these dayes , and not one christian ministry infallible throw-out the earth , nor any one of all them , that are in england at this day , no nor yet so much as that of your own , is a doctrine and a peice of news , which , if it were not a little more strange then true ( for one here is , though it be not yours is a very fair in-let to , and by my con●ent might , without much scruple , usher in that old antichristian ministry , and its pertenances here again , as that which may stand welny with as much safety to peoples souls , and give as good security and infallible assurance of its guiding and conducting them infallibly to salvation , as your own can doe ; since that , at the worst , is little worse then fallible , and your own by your own consent , at the best , is little better : for it s much at one to me and other poor people of it what mnistry stands here in england , if , in a case of such main moment and eternall concernment , there stands none that by the spirit of god are made in their ministrations infallible : if there be no guides to be had , save such as are fain to confesse they are but fallibly guided themselves , or if in this case there be no other ( as the proverb is ) then hobsons choice to be made , which is chuse whether you will have this or none , one blind guide being to me little better then another , if others would be rul'd by me , i would chuse none of that sort at all ; but cleave to the light and spirit it selfe , which is infallible , and leads all that follow it into all truth ; for if the blinde lead the blind , whether papists or protestants , they must all at last into the ditch : and if england must have an outward ministry , and by no meanes will be made to own that ministry of the qua. now among them , which is of god , seeing it is so that none of all those other she takes hold on in this day of her breaches , saying thou hast cloathing , be thou our ruler in things of god , let this ruine be made up under thy hand , that answer her any other then so , as isa. . . . i will not be an healer , for in my house is neither bread nor cloathing ; i am not guided infallibly my selfe , i am a deceivable erring man , i dare not say my ministry is unerring , make me not a ruler of the people ; seeing i say there 's none to guide her assuredly among all her own sons she ha●h brought forth , isa. . . neither any that taketh her by the hand infallibly to direct her among all the sons she hath brought up with great care , cost and charge at her own universities here at home ; but they are all at a losse within themselves , m●ping up , and down in a mist , their divinest doctors confessing and declaring that to be justly come upon them , which god aid should , isa. . . to . ( viz. ) that its night to them , they can't infallibly divine , the vision of all is become as a book sealed to them , they can't read , &c. ( though i advise her not to give way to any of those guides yet ) she could have neither more nor lesse said to her , if she should send for some of her own native sons to come home , and guide her , that are brought up in the english colledge at the popes own charge at rome it selfe ▪ but if she be resolved no more to be foold with a fallible ministry , but will have one that is infallible ( as i would or none at all ) then if she mean never to bear the popes bag and baggage in truth , as she talks she will not , let her take the infallible spirit within for her guide and no man without but such as are guided infallibly by it , which guides none fallibly , that unfainedly follow it , as thousands of quakers do ; and if any seem to do it and do not , they in so doing undo themselves ; but i know no other men call'd ministers in all the world beside the qua. that so much as pretend to infallibility , but he that s●ts in the infallible chaire . . neither is our doctrine of the light and spirits being the rule of the true faith and good life , and not the externall text or letter of the scripture onely , any fair in-let for the p●pish bag and baggage ; for howbeit they take not the text thereof to be their onely truest touchstone , most certain standard and measure of truth and doctrines , as we doe not , yet that they take for their sure and certain rule ( which we say with you , is a manifold more fallible matter , yea by an hundred degrees more fallible then the most falsified coppy of the scripture , that ever yet came forth ) is something that stands more at staves end , and at a far wider distance from that aforesaid rule of ours , then from yours , who for your rule and standa●d doe own no other then the scripture ; by how much , two things , whereof the one is fallible , the other infallible , are further off each other by far , then two things are , both which are at most no more then fallible : for the light and spirit of christ , which we onely do , and all christians ought to own , for their standing rule and trusty teacher , are i●fallible , and will hereafter in the proper place for that , be proud to be to ; but your professed standard , which is no other then that outward text , and the papists , which is no other then tradition taken from that dark , and worse then dubious oracle ( viz. ) the erring mi●d and mouth of their great grand ghostly father ( excepting ever that this is far more fallible then the former ( i.e. ) then the letter ) are both but fallible . your doctrine , then who teach the meer text , which is but fallible ( as must anon be shew'd ) to be the most true touchstone , comes neerer to the papists doctrine , who teach another thing to be the most true touchstone , which ( what ere you say of the infallibility of yours , and they of the infallibility of theirs ) is at best but fallible , and at worst but more fallible , then yours is , then ours possibly can do , which is on all hands own'd to be infallible . and howbeit the scripture ( which lyes in the midway between us , and papists , so that till they march so far towards us , as to own it better then they do , they and we are never likely to meet in one , unlesse they can come , ab extrem● ad extremum from their ill extream to our true extream , and misse the m●dium as they cannot , ) howbeit , i ●a● the scripture and its honest owners are really neerer and dearer to us then they , and their most trusty traditions are , which they take from their sore aid o●●cle ; yet is there not so vast a disproportion and di●agreement betwen ●uch owners as ye are of the scripture for the only rule , and such as own that treasury of traditions , that lyes lockt up in the pope ; breast , as the only rule , as is between these tradition-truster● and us , who own as our only rule , the true light of christ and the holy spirit ; the inconsistency being not so much between your meer fallible l●tter and their more fallible chaire , as it is between the most assuredly infall●ble holy spirit , and their most assuredly fallible , though supposed infallible holy chair . . our doctrine of the fallibility of the bare na●ed letter of the scripture , and of its lyablenesse to corruption , and its being corrupted , and falsified by mistranscriptions , so as to have various lections in the most originall copyes of it , that are extant in greeke & hebrew at this day ( which remains to be in its proper place proved against i. o. who pleads that kind of purity of it to every tittle , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad nauseam us●u● ) is no fair in-let to the pop●sh bag & baggage , though i find i. o. so supposing , & giving us out his sole suppositions and thoughts , that 't is but a supposition , that it is corrupted , and such a one , as by which p●pe●y is supported , speaking in at least three places of his english peice to this same purpose , ( viz. ) p. . what use ha●h been made , and is as yet in the world ●f this supposition , that corruptions have befallen the o●iginals of the scripture , which those various lection ( meaning those that the pr●l●gam●na to the biblia polyglotta do declare ) at fi●st view seem to intimate , i need not d●clare . it is in briefe , th● foundation of m●humetisme th● chi●f●●t and principall prop of popery , the onely pretence of fanaticall anti●cripturists , and the root of much h●dden atheisme in the world. also p. . now if this cou●se be taken and every s●igma●ized c●ppy may be sea●ched for differences and these presently pinted for various lections , there is no doubt but we may have enough of them to f●ighten poor unstable souls into the a●mes of the pretended in●allible judge ; also ( to say nothing here of the hideous affrightments , dangers , fears of i. o. who is oft mo●e afraid then hurt , and other of the dreadfull and desperate consequences of this imagination● ( as he calls it , though a reall truth ) that corruptions and various lections are crept into his originall text of the scripture , and that protestants begin now to sent it , as well as papists , and to be infected with the leprosy of that opinion , which he trembles , think of , as an i●convenience , which he knows no whither it will grow , and fears whether many will not be ready to question the foundati - of the letter , as dubious and uncertain , and not fit to be the rule ( as sure enough they will when they begin to see , what some have felt , and cry out with him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seeing that their supposed firm foundation to be fallible and falsified as it is ) having no more yet to releive himselfe against this uncertainty of his standing , then that mi●erable comfort ( viz. ) that the generality of lea●ned men among protestants are not yet ( but how soon they may be , he is not aware ) i●fected with this leven , which hurries and pittifull puthers and dreadfull deale ado , that the doct● makes in his d●eam about this up and down in the . . . . . and other pages of his preface and throw out the th little chapter of his d . treatise , which is so falsly figured that the pages cannot easily be coted , are enough to make some wise men smile that never meant it ) i say to let passe all that at present , among other mischiefs , that he conceives will accrue , if men conceive the scripture to have had , by mis-transcriptions , the fate of other books , and that in their originall copyes , this must needs be one , that they have no where else to betake themselves for a rule , but to run back to rome , witnesse his last words of that forecited chap. which are these ( viz. ) and if this change of judgement which hath been long insinuating it selfe by the curiosity and boldnesse of criticks should break in also upon the protestant world and be avowed in publike works , it is easie to conjecture what the end will be . we went from rome under the conduct of the purity of the originalls , i wish none have a mind to return thither under the pretence of their corruption . but stay a while , i. o. is there for such as are lost , no way out of the wood , but that one of thy own fancying , or else that other of the papists , which is worse then none ? is there nought for men to doe , but either they must stare with thee , or else , for fear of they know not what , run stark mad with them ? either fall in with thy meer figments about the scripture , or else if they find it not as infallible in every apex of it , as thou foolishly fainest , be frightend strait into the more fallible fantasmes of that fantasticall holy father ? sure if that judgement , that the same fate ; as to the creeping of corrupttions into it , hath befallen that writing , as hath done other scripture , be a pr●p to pope●y , where popery at pre●ent stands , yet thou wilt find some , who are of the papists mind about the scripture ( as far as to the variety of lections , which are found in the very origina●l text thereof ) who yet have betaken themselves to , and doe stand on such a sure foundation , as will s●and when popery , and common p●otestanism too shall faile for ever , with whom neither one nor th' other of these , wh● are i th' same nature still , though fighting for their different outward●faulty foundations , and foolish formes , so standing , can have any fellowship ; who , instead of returning to r●me , under a pretence of corruption in your originalls , under the conduct of your conceited purity of which ye came from thence , are running further , and faster , then ever from rome and you too , that live within her lines of communication still , and feed upon the taile of her traditions , more then on the true word of god , for all your wording it so much against them and for the word , under the infallible conduct of the pure , originall it self , even the pure light living , word and spirit of god , by which abell , enoch , noah walked with god of o●d before your ( but pretended ) rule was written , in respect of which the eldest of your originalls are but upstarts , and from which the best of your originalls had their being . nevertheless , who hath believed our report ? to whom is this arme of the lord revealed , &c. o nugas h●minvm ! o quantum est in r●bus inane ! quis legit haec ? vel duo vel neimo . i. o. cannot see this , and few or none of our skilful scribs and scripturists can read this , though the scripture sends them from it self to that it came from ; nor yet how by raking so unreasonably to make men believe that of the scripture , which 't is unposible for any that can truly read them to believe of them , or find from themselves , himself frightens honest souls , from any further giving of much heed to his own judgement , when by a serious search they shall find the falshood of it in so plain and palpable a case as that is , he so miserably miscarries in : but whether they will give most heed to christ him●elf or no , and to his light in the conscience , and word in the heart , or to the bare letter of the scripture , which only testifies of him , without ever coming to him that they may have the life , or to the pope . i leave it ; a little time will now detect it , howbeit some may go one way , some another , and like to like , and each to what , and to whom he best loves and likes , but christs sheep , to whom he onely gives eternal life , they will assuredly heare his voice , which who doeth not , must be cut off from among his people . . our doctrine of the vniversal grace , and general love of god to all mankind , in giving christ intentionally to be a saviour to all , that all that are lost in the fall of the first man , may be in possibility and true capability of redemption and salvation by him , without a bolt by any personal reprobation of the most therefrom , with no reference to their acting any evill , and that unchangeably before they had a being , ( unless themselves p●nendo obicem debarr themselves from the benefit thereof , by rejecting the council of god against themselves , by an obstinate resisting the strivings of his spirit with them to bring them to it , and a wilful putting away of the word of eternal life , when by christ its brought nigh even in their hearts and mouths , that they may hear and do it ) this is no fair in-let to their bag and baggage : this perhaps is assented to as truth by the papists , the more shame for the most of our hypocritical churles that gainsay it , who would be , but must be no more called liberal and bountiful , while they are bold to utter errour against the lords large love , as if he were such a niggard as themselves , who care not how few men be saved , provided that their ever-sinning-selves be not damned , but elected to be saved in their sins , without being perfectly purg'd from them before they die , by christ , of whom they must yet once know what yet they will not , that he came to save all people from all sin , who a●e willing to be saved , and not to give any such darlings of his , as they darkly deem themselves to be , an allowance in the least , or a dispensation to sin throw infirmity till they die , and then to save them from the desert thereof after death ; the instruments of which vile chu●l● a●so are evil to destroy the poor people of god with their lying words , when they speak no other then right things . but what if the romish clergy do hold such a general grace of god ? they are by so much the more of a noble spirit then your selves , who deny it , in the owning of that most pretious truth , if they were not far worse then yourselves in other mattters : and as for us called qua. who preach it here for truth ( as against i. o. and t. d. it must anon be prov'd to be in the proper place ) as we take neither it nor ought else to be truth by tradition from papists , or e●e the more because they own it , but as our selves have received it from the muoth of god , so i hope you wise men will grow wiser by then i have done , then to judg we must either reject truth it self , if their church once hold it , or else be judged to be of them while we hold it with them : and as in holding it out freely , ( as we do other truths ) we neither fill nor feed , ( as you do your own , by holding in the truth ) their as hypocritical as hydropical bag , so it being no worse then that golden gospel truth , which ye divines darken so much by your dirty distinctions , and meer guilded glosses , could we make such ●a fair in-let for it , that it might shine forth in its brightness , as it once will do , from one end of england to another , we should in so doing usher in no part of their baggage ; but indeed your selves in standing against it have not only stor'd your bag more then is fit for men to do , that make a trade of treading down the truth , but have brought in a piece of babylonish baggage of your own , as bad , if not worse then all the popes , for its all one to me what outward religion men be of , true or false , papism or protestanism , or whether they have any at all among them yea , or nay if it be so as our personal electionists ( absit blasphemia ) breath it forth verbatim , or at least , doctrinally and in effect , that the mercy of the almighty , which is said to abound to and over all , and extend beyond all his other works , and his infinite large , and incomprehensible love to all men , is yet no larger then may be comprehended in that little corner , whereinto they croud it , so as to say that one of a thousand only are decreed to be saved , and a thousand to one of the sons , and daughters of men , without respect to any evil foreseen in their proper persons to be acted in time , are from all eternity decreed by god himself , and that unchangeably and everlastingly to be damned : for then that one of a thousand shall assuredly be saved , and a thousand to one as inalterably perish , and die eternally , and this or that outward religion is no remedy against that , which was so ordered long before the poor creatures had any being . and as one said once unto me , for whom t will be better then he deserves , if our god take him not at his word ( viz ) he would not own that god that would own a qua. to be one of his children ; so say i ( but not so desprately as he did the other ) i know , and own no other god but him , who will own all to be his children , who will unfainedly own him to be their father , and save all them , that are truly willing , in his way , to be saved from their sins by him , who never yet declared himself willing to save any in them , who sent his son a light in the world not to condemn it , but to that intent that the world , which loving darknesse rather then light will needs be damned , through his light notwithstanding might be saved , and will shew mercy upon all them , who will have pitty upon themselves , so far as not to despise the riches of his grace , and reject his unfained tenders , and honest offers thereof when they are made : neither do i own him to be my god ( for my god is a god of mercy and truth to all ) who without any respect to their personal rejectings thereof in time , wills never to have mercy upon th● most ; who would have any to perish , and not have all to come to repentance ; who would not truly have all , as well as some to be saved , and come to the knowledge of the truth ; who hath any pleasure at all that the very wicked , much more that the innocent should die ; that delighteth in the death of him that dieth , and had not really rather , that he should turn from his wickednesse and live ; that means any otherwise then he sayes , or is quite contrary to what he seems to be in his speeches , to either good or bad ; that hath two wills within himself , whereof one is contradictory to the other ; that reveals his will to be this , that he 's no ●●specter of persons , but all men as they do shall have , that the soul that sins shall die , but that that turns and does righteousnesse shall live , that men die at their own wills , and choice not his ; and yet hath a secret will within himself ( which as secret as they call it , yet our priests will be twatling of it openly ever and anon , as if they knew it as well as the other ) wherein he wills and chuses , that a few only shall live , and irresistably by them or ought they shall ever do , a thousand to one shall die ; that sends out his son as a mocker of most men , by calling them all to believe every one that he is his , and is come to be his saviour , when yet he died not for every individual , but contrary to his revelation in the scripture , gave himself a ransom , not for all , but only for a few ; that makes an of●er of salvation to all by christ , but intends it only to some few ; that sends out his ministers with a lye in their mouths , ( for a truth it is not say our m●nisters , yet they will preach it ) ( viz ) that g●ds love and good will is truly towards them all , and every one may lay claim to it as well as any one : when yet according to their doctrine at other times , there 's no such matter as this , but his love is only to some certain ones , which he secretly selects , and yet he can't do it so secretly neither , but they must tell on 't to as many as they tell the other ; that sends his ministers to make every man believe that christ died for him in particular , which if every man should believe ( according to their other will of god , which , but that they are tel-tales , should be called his secret will , which is that he gave not christ to tast of death for every man , but for very few ) most men must believe a very lye ; and yet if every man believe it not for himself , he must be damned too , for not believing of that , which ( according to themselves still ) is no truth , but a very notoriously● ; that condemns the world of sin , iohn . because they believe not in christ , as their saviour , and yet leaves the world , which ( say our preachers ) christ died not to save , for he died only for such as are not of it , without any saviour , that is theirs , to believe in : that on pain and peril of his eternal displeasure , requires men like pharoah , whom he plagu'd for his cruelty in the self same case , to make such a tal● of b●ick , and yet yeelds them no straw wherewithal to do it , but leaves them to go look it where they can . he that doth thus , and much more of the like nature , which the doctrine of such , as deny the vniversal grace of god , doth in effect represent their god as doing , may be own'd as a god by such as make him one , and by the ministers of his own making , yet is not owned by me to be the true god of gods , but a god of his own ministers own making to themselves after the image of their own vain imaginations ; yet such a god as this are i. o. t. d. i. tombs , r. baxter , and the whole diacony of d●vines , that deny the death of christ for all men , devising , and imagining to themselves , of whom till they come to know , and own the true god , which is mine , in his mercy truth and faithfulnesse , a little better then they do , or can by that dark lantern of their own understandings , in which they are poring after him in the letter only , besides his own light and spirit , in which only he is seen as he is , i must say so much , and of my self together with them , that whosoever is the father of myself or of them , we are not yet one and the same fathers children . . our doctrine about good works , and our preaching , and maintaining , and pleading for good works , as necessary for many good uses against t. d. or any other , this is no fair in-let to the p●pish bag and baggage , for all good works as are so indeed , and not only so suppo●ed by such as call good evil , and evil good , are of god and christ jesus , the truth and none of the pope , nor of his priests , nor any other meer man that i know of , neither are there any that can truly be so called ( for what thou or the pope or any papists or protestants , falsly call good works is another case , not at all pertaining to our purpose ) to be found for ought i see in his whole budget of religious implements , nor in the whole masse or magazine of his massy matters , and 't is more then i shall see , while i see you but besides , much more against that light , in which only that is done , which goes for good in the account of god , if there be any good works ( truly good ) to be found yet among the best of your own ; i know you have a whole warehouse of religious works ( such as they are ) which you are accustomd to call good , as they do theirs , but what your good works are in your own sight is one , and what they are in the sight of god is another question ; there is a generation ( wo to them ) that are wise in their own eyes , prudent in their own sight , yet very fools in the sight of god , there is a generation ( wo to them also ) that call evil good , and good evil ; put darknesse for light , and light for darknesse , bitter for sweet , and sweet for bitter ; there is a generation ( o how lof●y are their eyes , and their eye-lids lifted up , wo to them also , for they are a stink in his nostrills , and as smoak in his nose before the lord ) that are pure in their own eyes , and yet are not , nor ever mean to be , while they live , fully washed from their filthynesse ; i have read of a generation that had more good works ( as they count them ) to count upon then all the national churches of either protestants or papists , and works more good , as to the matter of them ( if what matter god requires may be counted better , then what is required by meerly man ) all whose whole treasury of solemn services , out of which they offer'd to him , was yet in the fight of god esteemed but trash , so long as t was the sinner only that so served , and sacrificed , and no other then cain the evil doer still , that did that good ; such were all the haughty mincing daughters of zion , that walk't with stretcht out necks , and bosted in the bravery of their tinkling ornaments , their new-moons , sabbaths , burnt offerings , prayings , prayses , fasts , and feasts , in which , when they drew near to god , they did no more then what he by moses had appointed ( as ye do , for which you have your labour for your paines ) who worship not after his own praecepts , and doctrines in outwards , but after the commandements , and traditions of men , and of the pope himself in many things still , and yet because they did not so much as he appointed them in matters of more moment , but were unclean , and wicked , refusing to walk in the good old way of the light , which was the way before moses , and the letter was , turning away their eare from hearing the law in the heart , which is the light , were not only vain but abominable in the very best of their oblations . in preaching therefore in order to gods acceptance of us , and our good works , which are not outward worships , where the heart and life are yet defiled , but where a new creature , created after his own image of god in christ iesus to good works , in his nature , and by his power , though in it's own person , doth perform them , is as an utter exclusion of all your own , so no fair in-let to any of the popish rubbish , will worship , meer self service , and unprofitable devotion , for these being only done by man , are neither good , nor accepted of god. but to teach and maintain , and plead for evil works , as necessary to be done , while we are in this life , and teach down the doctrine of perfecting holinesse , and perfect purging our selves from all uncleannesse of flesh and spirit , while we are here in the body ( which paul taught up ) as a doctrine of devils , and to deny the possibility of performing this duty of not sinning , and make such a grosse state of sin as that was , which david stood in , when he was guilty of adultery and murder , consistent with gods acceptance of men , and their justification before him , and that the saints ( as some call them in such a pickle , while they are in sin up to the ears ) even in such a case are not in a condemned , but in a justified estate , and that if the saints own heart condemn him , and his own conscience tell him that god doth not accept him , and that his estate is bad in such a bad sinful case , and not good , it 's defiled , and lyes , and testifies falsehood to him , and leads him into a wrong opinion of himself , and that the saints may be blessed men , as david was , having no guile in his spirit , but sincere , upright after gods own heart , though under , the guilt of so grosse and great sins , when the scripture saith the contrary ( viz ) that david was upright before god , saving in that matter of vriah , wherein indeed his very heart was false and rotten , and to affirm to the encouragement of men in their imperfections , and infirmityes , by which name they stile the saints grossest iniquities , as t.d. does , contradictorily to himself in other places , that the gospel gives life upon imperfect obedience , all which and more , ejusdem farraginis is done and utter'd by t.d. and such as own him therein , in the . . . . pages of his . pamphlet as they were by word of mouth at the disputes : this is to strengthen the hands of the wicked , that they cannot return from their wickednesse , for how is it possible they should do it , when 't is preacht and believed as impossible to be done ? this is to sow soft pillows under their elbowes , that they may sleep on securely in sin and take their rest , for its all but infirmity , and no inpreachment to his justification , nor to his standing accepted , and in covenant with god that a saint does , and their 's no condemnation to them that are saints , and in christ , no though they be in transgression , in which who is ( say i ) is out of christ , and not a saint , and though they walk not after the spirit ( as all that are saints and in christ jesus do ) but after the flesh : and in a word a very fair in-let to a very worse matter , then that whole mare mortuum of the popes beggerly observations , even no better a matter then the very whole bundle of the devils own bag , and beastly baggage . so then i see not hitherto , and am perswaded never shall , till i come to see , as t.d. does in his floting fancy , many things with his eyes shut , how any doctrines of the qua. even such as they and i hold with , any more then what we hold flatly against the popish priesthood , do either conclude my complyance with them , or make any way for the incoming and abiding , ( without its own speedier ruine ) of their romish baggage ; or how our parochiall priesthoods preaching , and practice too , doth any other then uphold the butt end thereof , and preach their own c●mplyance with those their brother ravens in many matters . but t. d's . biggest bolt , and weightest bullet ( as he counts at least ) lyes yet behind , and that is our doctrine of good works as needful to that use of our justification before god , here he iudges that omne tulit punctum he hath fully hit the white , and that this will do , if all the rest die , and fallen the fault of favouring and fathering the popish cause upon me as some i●suit , if all the other fail : good works for necessary uses , ( viz ) to manifest faith to be true , to sanctify , to make meet for the possession , &c. t.d. and his associates in words , and doctrinally ( more then practically ) maintain as much as any ; but to maintaine good works , not only to the use of our sanctification , but our justification and to justify , not only de●laratively in the sight of men , but also formally in the sight of god , not only to approve a beleiver , but absolve a sinner , p. . not only to fit for , but to give right to the inheritance p. . not as concurrent and concomitant only , but as cooperative , and constitutive together with faith , and coincident as a cause in the case of our iustification , to let good works be accounted , not only via ad regnum , but also carsa regnandi ( as your scools distinguish ) yea , and further yet , to dispute it not in these terms barely of ( good works ) but in these terms of ( our good works ) and lastly , higher yet , to rank them so high in order of causes , as not only instrumental with faith but a deserving , or meritorious cause of justification ; this is notorious , yea so grosse , and popish that we may well rank you ( thinks he ) among the papists , p. . as at least a bringer in of their baggage , yea now ( quoth t.d. of me p. . ) you shew your self a rank papist indeed . rep. ipse dixit t.d. hath said it , who of all those seers with his eyes in sandwich , or else where , who , giving heed to him from the least to the greatest , saying of him , this man is the great power of god , have hi● hitherto bewitched , with his simonical sorceries , can do any other then believe it to a tittle . this stroke enters with so deep a dint , into the thoughts , fancies , and faith of many , that 't is supposed by some , we qua. shall never be able to lick our selves whole of the deadly wound it brings with it , both to the doctrines that we maintain as truth , and to our selves also , whom we maintain to be no rank papists , nor rankers of our ●elves with them against the truth , in our maintaining of tho●e doctrines : i must therefore ( since the lord hath laid it upon me , if all the world would take me off it ) take leave here to enlarge so far as to enter the lists , in one short single duel with t.d. alone , about these matters , desiring i. o. to have patience , and stand by a while longer , till i can have while to handle him , and t.d. both at once , in those points wherein they two joyne , and issue out together , making ( as it were ) but one head ( as to the doctrines wherein they oppose ) against the qua and the rather because i find not i. o. in his book , which elsewise is brotherly enough with t.d. in bitternesse against the truth and qua. intermedling much there ( what ere he thinks ) in this so momentary a matter . as for t. d. i have sundry things , to reckon and reason with him in aboutit . i am to have a talking with thee , t.d. in a few words for a certain abuse or injury done by thee in that passage of thine p. . wherein thou relatest that the d. question debated on by us was stated in these termes ( viz. ) whether our good works are the meritorious cause of our justification ? that i not onely held it in the affirmative , but also disputed it in those termes , of our good works , in such wise , as the papists do , so as to shew my selfe a rank papist ; which injury , in regard of the extent of it to the severall persons wronged , is not more manifest then manifold ; yea , verily seven-fold more then ordinary , for as much as no lesse then seven persons are thereby most grossely abused and belyed ; that is to say not only my selfe , whom onely thou intendedst should suffer by it , but also thy selfe and five of thy chiefe friends too , ( for want of thy forecast ) viz. of them thou cal●t gentlemen , * and three of thy master ministers * whose witnesse thou appealest to , who are all more moderate and gentle men , then thy selfe it seemes , as to their testimony in this matter ; for they all , and thy selfe too , who bring'st them to bear witnesse with thee , of the truth in this case , do , with one accord together with thee , testifie another thing , which is the very truth , and no more then the truth viz. ( see p. . of thine own narrative ) that the termes of the d. question were , whether good . works be the meritorious cause of our justification ? which ( as 't is there said truly ) was expressely affirmed by us , without that figmentitious particle [ ovr ] in the sence thou usest it in , which is of thine own forging , and foisting in , and adding to that term good works ; the adding of which in the eye of any , save such as are not either arrand fooles , or else ( as the proverb is ) more knaves then fools , which yet is , in plain terms , the plain case of all that wink against the truth , and will not seem to see it , when they do , doth alter the state of the question , so as to make it utterly another : for who but such as either cannot see , or , which is worse , may see , and will not , can chuse but understand , that whether ovr good works ( at least in that sottish and sordid sense , wherein the papists hold it ) do justifie ? is one question ? and whether good works do justifie ? is another ? in which st . sense of the papist , when they say ovr good works , whose good works ( as they call them ) are no better than other mens own are , whose own meerly are all stark naught , i neither do , nor ever did affirm our iustification to come ; but in the latter ( viz. ) that good works ( meaning only those of christs own working in and for us , by the same power and spirit by which he did good works in that person in which he liv'd and dyed at ierusalem , then whom i know no other that can , without his power , work any good , i confesse i both then did affirm and own , and as i then did in the power of christ , so i ever shall both affirm , evince and maintain . and whether it was in this latter sense only , or in the former popish s●nse in which thou t.d. art impudent enough to assert i held it , he that will in no wise beleive me , if i speak in my own case , nor any that side with me in the truth , but had rather give credit to t.d. let him beleive t.d. with all my heart , provided he do but take his testiomy to be tru●st where its strongest , for then he cannot but beleive me to be belyed : for that t.d. who in p. . sayes the question was stated in these termes [ good works ] ( which was the same , t.d. undoutedly that sayes the other ) doth flatly gainsay and clearly contradict that t.d. and prove him a lyar , that saves p. . it was stated in these termes [ ovr good works ] and if any doubt which of these two selfe-overturning testimonies of t.d. may most securely be taken for truth , seeing they are . contrary testimonies of one and the same man , ( viz. ) that in p. . wherein he wrongs me , or that of his own in p. . which i appeale to for right , and am willing to be tryed by , as touching his false charge of me , as saying [ our good works justifie ] i say unlesse the reader mean to wrong more , then himselfe or me either by his misbeleife , namely , not only such of my friends , as witness truth with me , but also ● . of t. d's . own most eminent , and credible witnesses , so as to judge them also to be all lyars , he must beleive what t.d. sayes p. . namely that i affirm'd [ good works justifie ] and beleive that to be a lye , which t.d. sayes , p. . namely , that i affirm'd [ our good works justifie ] for , t.d. alone , on his own head only , sayes this last , but t.d. together with his . witnesses assert the other . thus then stands this case between me and thy selfe , t.d. thou arraignest me openly at the bar before the world , p. . as a ra●k papist , as saying in these termes that [ our good works ] are the meritorious cause of our justification , to which inditement , i pleading not guilty of saying [ ovr good works [ but [ good works ] are the cause , &c. how wilt thou be tryed ( quoth the impartiall iudge the honest hearted reader , that would ●ain find out the truth in the court of his own conscience ) whether thou be guilty of affirming and disputing the said position expressely in those termes , or not guilty ? i reply by god and the country : what evidence bringst thou in ( quoth the righteous reader to t.d. ) against s.f. whom thou so accusest ? what were the termes in which he and the qua. expressely affirm'd it ? the termes of the question were these ( quoth t.d. p. . ) whether good workes he the meritoricus cause of our justification , which was expressely affirmed by them . thus am i cleared in the sight of god and all men from t. d's . accusation by the true evidence of t.d. himselfe my accuser ; for we have not accusatum , but accusantem reum confitentem , not the falsely accused , but the falsely accusing malefactors own confession to his own confutation and confusion , that the position was asserted not in the same termes , in which at first he related it to be asserted in : so that what need any further witnesse , for ye your selves of all sorts , that read t. d's book , may read the truth in his own testimony ; but if any , finding t.d. so fickle as to say and unsay , judg him not fit to be heeded in what he sayes , whether against me or against himselfe , and will needs heare what others say in the matter , whether i affirm'd [ our good works ] or [ good works ] only meritorious . i need not trouble the world with the summoning in of more witnesses , since fas est vel ab hoste doceri such as t.d. hath appealed to himselfe shall stand for me ; for as t.d. sayes p. . ( to the proving of t.d. to be a lyar in what he sayes , p. . ) that 't was [ good works ] so h. oxenden , i. boys , n. barry , t. seyliard , c. nicols agree in their witnesse with him , and for ought i find as he sayes p. . so they say all ; and he that will not beleive them , doth , what in him lyes , make them to be lyars like him , as well as t.d. in gain-saing p. . that truth . which himselfe and they with him do all assert p. . does not only make himselfe a lyar , but also , what in him lyes , abuse , not only me and himselfe , but all them also , so as to make them seem lyars also together with him . now then t. d. let me expostulate with thee a little on thine own and thy freinds behalf : couldst thou not b●ly me in some better way then that p. . whereby thou givest the lye ( if men were such fooles as to beleive thy single self before thy selfe and . witnesses ) both to thy selfe and them all in that truth ye all . testify together , p. ? if thou wouldst in no wise spare me , who can expect no sparing , but rather a shooting out of your poysoned arrowes against me , even lying words , who also can and do forgive thy forgery so far as it reaches only to the ill reputation of my selfe ; yet thou mightest have been contented to have spared thy friends ; thy gentlemen and ministers , who , ( as thou saift of them in thy epistle to the reader ) are witnesses of the termes of the questions agreed to by the qua. to free thee from the suspition of a partiall relato● so as not to have laid them lyable to suspition of lying , by thy lying , p. . against thy own and their true testimony , p. . or if not them , yet at least have spared thy selfe so far as not to have stained thy self , and thine own reputation , and not have subjected thy selfe in the hearts of all , to not only a shrew'd suspition , but welny a certain censure of forgery , so much as thou hast done in handling thy ill matters no better , and making thy invented evill-intending tale hang no more handsomly together then it does ; for which , how far soever i forgive thee and thou in favour to thy selfe mayst possibly give pardon to thy own selfe supposed saintship , as freely as thou dost to david , and all saints in theirs , in thy own foulest faults , and abominations , yet every reader , that loves the truth , which thou hast wronged , will remember , and not so readily forget , how eminently the lord hath left t.d. in his envious undertakings to manifest the qua. folly to all men , instead thereof most palpably to manifest his own : neither when the lord●ises up to visit , and to reckon , and to enter into judgment with him for it will the seeming saint without confession and forsaking so easily , as he supposes , find from him the forgiveness of his falshood . henceforth therefore t.d. take heed of lying at all to thy own hurt ; or if for want of love to it , thou must needs bely the truth and its children , for which wo , and no lesse then the lake must be thy portion , yet for thy credits sake a while have a care another time of lying so directly against thy self ; but remember that opo●te● mendacem esse memorem , it behoves a lyar to have his wits better about him , then thou had'st in this busines , least by going about to wrong another a great deal , he do not only in foro dei , but hominum also , before men wrong himself not a little ; as thou hast done , who at this time was●t not thy crafts-master , so much as thy craft was thine , to catch thee in the snare , which thou laid'st , and to pull thee into the pit , and draw thee down into the ditch , which thyself digg'dst for another ; for though thou travailedst with iniquity , and conceivedst mischief , and broughtest forth false-hood against thy fained-foe but unfained friend s.f. yet is it in such a foolish unsubtle manner , that the mischief of the serpent , who was scarce like his cunning-self in the mannaging of this matter , returns ( and so it ever must till it be bruised , let him lye never so wisely ) upon his own head , and his violent dealing , and viola●ion of the truth comes unawares upon his own pate ; so honi soir , qui mal perse , evil still to him , that evil thinks , and howbeit fallere fallentim v●x est fraus ( as they speak ) for a man to deceive himself in that very thing , wherein he hoped to deceive another , is one of the most honest and harmlesse peices of deceit , that i know , and the least of all to befound fault with , yet so it hath happened to t.d. in this one peice of his arche●y against me and the truth , that he hath ( as he saith he intended to do p. . ) beat the devil at his own weapon , and outshot him in his bow , yea , and overshot himself so exceedingly al●o , as that — not aiming right , when he bent his bow to shoot at a pigeon , he kild a crow . that then i affirmed good works to deserve iustification , i own , and still affirm the same ; but i deny that , that i there affirmed , and here i affirm that i then did and still do deny the papist best works , which are not good , what ere they call them , to deserve iustification , or our own best works either , who know no good works , that we have , but what christ , who works no evil works , by his power worketh in , and by us , which , as they are done by him in us , are not ours but distinctively from ours tim. . . tit. . . called his , and as they are done by us , throw his power in us , are called our works , isa. . . for as he doth them in us mat. . . cor. . . cor. . . and worketh in us , both to will and do them , they are truly his , and as we work them in and by that power he gives , may ( yet not in such sense as what we do of our selves ) be called our own phil. . . . yea if we speak of what good works christ did in that person only , in which he appeared at ierusalem , while we witnesse not the same done by him in our selves , we cannot call those works ours , to justification more truly then papists can , who beleive as well as protestants what he there did , though they never look to do the like : — quae non fecimus ipsi , non ea nostra voco . what he did in that person , and not ovrs , is his only yet , and not ovrs , but if we speak of what we do not only in our own persons , but our own wills , power and wisdom , abstract from him , and the leadings of his light and spirit , i say quae sic fecimus ipsi , haec ego nostra voco , these i call truly and only ovrs , and so doth the scripture rom. . . . phil. . . and as for what ovr persons do in his light according to his will , in the true movings of his spirit , and by no other but his own power , quae nos fecimus ipsi sic , ea nostra voco , these , being partly ours , though principally his , i have a liberty from the lord truly enough to denominate by that name of ovrs , yet as 't is fit he should have the perheminence , as to the name , who is not the cheif actor , but the only author of them , i rather chuse mostly to call them his , though done in and by us , and so again , quae nos fecimus ipsi , vix ea nostra voco . so there are . good work ; which are only christs , and not ovrs , and and by these he deservedly stood justified in the sight of god , in his own person , which if he had not done ( and had he sinned he could not have done ) he could never have bin a high priest able to justify others , or sufficient to save to the uttermost , such as come to god by him ; for such a high priest it became us to have , who is holy , harmless , undefiled , and seperate from sinners himself , or else he could never seperate sin from us , heb. . . . . . again their are good works ( so called ) which are only ovrs , and not christs , and such are all the best that we work without him of our selves , even all our own righteousnesse and righteousnesses , which are as an unclean thing , as a menstru●us rag , isa. . . as dung and losse and not gain , nor any way profitable to save or deliver , isa. . . . phil. . . . . and by these though done in mans willings , and runnings , in a way of outward conformity to the letter of the law shall no flesh ever be justified any more then paul was , for these are not christs ( all whose works are meritorious , and acceptable to god , and deserving no condemnation that i know of , and consequently deserving iustification before god ; but mans own righteousnesse , as that of the iewes was , rom. , . . . . . and pauls was , till he came to the light ( though for want of coming to the light , t.d. in his dark minde saith paul had no righteousnesse that was not christs p , . ) is meritorious of no more acceptance then cains sacrifice had , which was iustly and deservedly rejected , because its the evill doer still , that does that good , which god ( what ere the sinner calls it ) accounteth evill . . again there are good works which in different respects are called ( truly enough ) both christs , and ovrs ( viz. ) ovrs , as done in and by our persons , christs , as done only by his power in us , and by these last ( call them , as ye will ) christs , as done by him in ovr persons , or ovrs , as done by us in his power , is the justification of all , that ever were or shall be justified , both deserved and effected , and not by what he did without them in that single person that once liv'd and dyed at ierusalem , while the same righteousnesse was and is not by that same power of his fulfilled within themselves ; and so st . detesting all that as rotten rags , that 's done by meer man without christ , and disowning it utterly , as giving no influence to mans justification , both honouring and duly owning all that righteousnesse , that was wrought by christ without man , as perfect , pretious , glorious , acceptable to god , unspeakably usefull to us , and truly meritorious at least to his own justification , that he might become ( as el●e he could not ) a meet mediatour for man , this d. and last i own only as the meritorious , and perfectly effectual cause of mans justification ; and howbeit t.d. is so blind as to deny our satisfaction by that righteousnesse whereof christ is the author p. . and to beleive that he that holds justification by this righteousnesse of christ , that 's wrought in the saints by his spirit cannot be saved , p. . for he owns this sentence there for truth ( viz. ) that any man that holds that principle of being justified by a righteousnesse within us , living and dying i● that principle cannot be saved . yet i not only say , but see so much , and hope ( as great a malefactor as t.d. p. . makes me for it ) to make any ( save such as seeing will not see ) to see the same , that he cannot be saved , who holds it not , but looks for salvation in that gospel , which t.d. preaches , of a iustification by a christ onely without him ; and that he may fill up his floutings at it , and compleat his cursing of it , in the same phrase he sc●●fingly renders my speaking this truth in , at the dispute p. . i say again to all people , that gospel , which t.d. and his fellows preach , of salvation by christ without them , without the revelation of christ and his righteousness within them , will not bring men to heaven . indeed people it will not . and this is that i am to have the second talking with t.d. about , before i come again to i.o. ( viz. ) this point of iustification , whether it , which we say is by christs righteousness and good works alone , and not any thing that is done by us , simply as of our selves , be by the righteousness of christ without us onely ( as t.d. saith it is ) or by that , which he performs in us also by the sam● power , as we affirm it . in the prosecution of which matter , which way soever the cause should seem to go in the consciences of such as are considerate , yet to the eye of every ordinary observer of him t.ds. weaknesses , and absurdities are so gross and obvious , that he that runs may re●d them , sundry of which i shall give the reader a taste of as i go along , that he may know how to relish him in the rest. hear then o ye deaf , look and see ye blind believers and admirers of t.d. and his applauded pamphlet , how he ( to turn his own terms to g. w. p. . upon himself ) interferes , and cuts one leg against another , and is not sensible of it ; and how he contradicts and confounds himself , and that so closely , cunningly and curiously , that neither himself , nor any of those who look , like himself , without their eyes , can see it , though to all others , i confess , 't is easie to be , or rather hard not to be discern'd . t. d. tells the world , that the terms of the question were , whether good works ( mark ) be the meritorious cause of iustification p. . and that this was expresly affirmed bylus : and saith t.d. this being so gross & popsh , l. howard one of the qua. present at the dispute hath ( witness nath. barry ) since denied that they did so affirm . rep. by the way let me tell thee reader , as from l. howard , that though he denied , that we affirm'd iustification by our good works , which assertion the priests falsly cha●ge us with , yet ( notwithstanding n. bar●yes bearing false witness against him ) he did not deny that we affirm iustification by good works , neither is he or any of us ashamed to a●firm at this present , that iustification is by goo● works ; but ( mark ) this ( quoth t.d. ) is gross and popish . so then you have t.ds. sence on one hand thus ( viz. ) it s not onely rank popery to affirm ovr good works ( though by ovrs , if ever the qu. affirm it , they mean christs good works in us cal'd ovrs , isa. . and not meerly our own ) but also gross and pop●sh , to affirm good works to be deserving iustification : i wot not well what works they are by which t.d. looks to be justified , seeing he denies it to be by good wo●ks ; for i cannot believe him ( as bad as he is ) to be so bad yet , as to believe any to be justified by bad , evil or wicked works , though he blushes not to say , that under the guilt of such bad works as adultery and murder david was , and so other saints , p. . ( but yet no wicked ones ) may be justified : and in another , p. . that the gospel gives live upon imperfect obedience , which , though he do no wickedness , is at best but an evil work ; nor wor i well where a man shall scape t.ds. censure of being popish , unless he run away from resting and relying on christ , as well as on himself for iustification ; for even christs best works are no more than good , as 't is true that all ovr best , that are not done by him in us , are worse then naught . but were it so in truth ( but i trow it is not as t.d. sayes , that to affirm good works meritorious of iustification , is so gross and popish , that they have reason to be asham'd that own it ) heu quam turpe est doctori cum culpar edarguit ipsum ? how much more reason then any other hath t.d. to be ashamed of his shameful doings , qui alterum incusat probri , de qu● ipsum se intueri oportet , who condemns others as gross and popish for the self-same doctrine , which he himself holds out in terminis , and yet creeps from under that condemnation , slides his own neck out of that collar , and , dum cod●m cum illis haret luto , condemns not himself as guilty of the same defilement , but rather to god and all men commends himself as clear and clean ? for whoever heard t.d. say of himself ( as he sayes of the qua. they are ) i am gross and popish in affirming that good works deserve iustification ? yet that he affirms the same as well as the qua. whose affirmation of it ( to the contradicting of himself ) he denies ; i need do no more in proof thereof , then send the reader to p. , . of his own . paper , out of which every puny may fully prove it to himself , for there in answer to my argument a con●a●iis , which was to this effect , without that term of ovr in such a sense as the papists use it , ( viz. ) evilworks are the meritorious cause of our condemnation , therefore good works are the meritori●●s cause of our non-condemnation or iustification , among several frivolous conceits , upon which he denies the consequences of my argument ; t.d. replyes thus , granting the rule of contraries will allow so to argue ( viz. ) evil works , which are the violation of the law , deserve danmation , ergo good works , which are the fulfilling of the law , deserve salvation ; and we know no good works such but christs : in all which he hath said no more than the self-same , which , in substance , is uttered and intended by our selves ; for we both speak of and mean no other good works , when we say , good works deserve iustification , then , such as are christs , and the fulfilling of the law in himself , and in us by his power , whose works onely are good , and all whose works are so good , that the law is fulfilled by them ; and so not condemnation , but iustification still deserved ; for where no condemnation is deserved ( as it is not by any good works ) there non-condemnation or iustification is ; for by every work the law is either fulfilled or broken , but by neither every , nor by any work that 's truly good ( as every one of christs are , whether done in his own , or by him in our persons , or by us in him his power and spirit ) is the law transgrest , violated or broken ; therefore by every good work obeyed , kept , fulfilled ; and by every work either condemnation or non-condemnation is deserved , but condemnation is not by any truly good work ; therefore non-condemnation is deserved by every good work ( taliter ) and by all , and onely good works by which is fulfilled the royal law , iam. . . which works no ill at all to another ( totaliter ) yet t.d. judges us ( unjustly ) as popish , who hold no otherwise then thus , and himself anti-popistical in holding the same ; to whom therefore i say ( to say no more of his self-contradiction in saying of good works , that they do , and yet do not deserve justification ) si in me iniqius es iudex t.d. condemnabo e●dem ego ●e crimine , if t.d. were as just as 't is sure he is unjust in condemning us for popery , he is so much the more unjust in that he condemns not himself for the same , since he that judges us so , for so holding , holds the same , & the more justly is he to be condemned by all , for not condemning himself as popish together with us . and now whereas t.d. supposes he hath added much to the alteration of the state of the question as we hold it , and to the enervating of the force of the consequence of my popish argument ( as he calls it ) by that weak , short and imperfect reply he gave to it at the dispute , and that more long , then strong addition of many impertinent passages in his accountative repetition of it ; i shall here take them a little briefly under consideration : and likewise the rest of that refusely stuff , which is replyed by t.d. up and down in his book , to my self r.h. and g.w. about this point of iustification , and such as were touch't on as pertaining to it , that being rid of the rudeness and reasonlessess of t.ds. religion , which i.o. in his piece of anti-quakerism interests not himself in , so far as i find any where , unless in p. . where his words seem to sent of such a justification in sin , as t.d. dreams of , i may trouble i.o. no more with the talk thereof , when i begin again to talk with him . to my n●ging contrarioram contraria est ratio t.d. thou replyest thus , p. , . there is not par ratio * for the merit of good and evil works , and that they are not abs●lute contraries , because our evil works are perfectly evil , but our good works ( ●aist thou ) are but impe●fectly good ; yea , isa. . . all our righteousnesses ( not our unrighteousnesses onely ) are as filthy rags . rep. to this i retu●n as followes ( viz. ) if by that te●m ovr good works thou intendest no other then those of your own , which ye call good , when thou sayest of them , that they are but imperfectly good , i yield to it as truth indeed , that your good works and your evil works are not absolute contraries , one to another , but rather both alike of one and the same sort , stamp and general kind , that is to say , both of them evil works : for your evil works being by your own confession perf●ctly evil , your good works ( as ye stile them for good they , are not while done by the evil-doer , that hates the light ) being al●o by confession but imperfectly good ; and for , so far from being truly good , that ( what ever they are in your own ) in gods account they are no better then evil , they are really evil too , yea● as to the nature done in ( though not as to their mea●ure ●as realy evil as the other , and not your unrighteousnes ; onely , but also your own righteousness being by the like true concession , but filthy rags , they are not absolute contra●ies , but con-naturals , as your best good and worst evil is ; for as two evil spirits may be both devils , though not devils both of one hair , but one a little b●n●ker , t'other respectively somewhat whiter then the other , so your two sorts of works , whereof ye call one good , the other evil , one your righteousness , t'other unrighteousness , are both alike , evil and wickedness , though one carries a fairer face before it than the other . neither did i ( as thou dost pag. that the gospel gives life upon imperfect obedience ) then affirm ( and so g.w. tells thee p. . of his reply to thee , who either didst or would'st not it seems understand me so well as he & others ) that imperfect works and the righteousness , which is as filthy rags , do deserve iustification ; neither did i ever , nor shall i now go about to prove by the rule of contraries , a contrary desert of your unrighteousness or evil works , and of such righteousness and good works as yours are , which both you and i acknowledge are but imperfect , and so no better then evil , unrighteousness , and filthy rags ; so as to conclude from thence that as your evil merits damnation , so your good merits iustification : nay , in stead of arguing about these from contra●iorum c●ntra●ia est rati● , of contra●ies there 's contra●y consequence . i must say rather , pa●ium par est ra●i● , similium similis consequentia , things that are alike , are of a like desert ; therefore your evil and your good in name differing , yet in kind agreeing , being evil and filthy rags , both alike , do both alike as truely deserve condemnation from him , as they are both alike ab●mina●ion before the lord. but if by that term ovr good w●rks , of which thou ●ayest they are but imp●fectly good , thou intendest those of christ● , own wo●king in and by us , and all his saints , of which ( he be●ng the authour , though we in and under him the actours thereof ) i said before , vix ea nostra voco , i deny any of these to be as thou callest them , but imperfectly good , and both affirm and shall prove them all to be really good , and ( as so ) truly contrary to both your confessed evil , and but conceited good works , which yet really are but evil ; and not onely so but perfectly good also , and in that respect more absolutely contrary to all your own both worst and best work● , the best of which though cal'd by you at least imperfectly g●od , are yet at best no better in kind then as perfectly evil , as the other , saving the baldness of that phrase ( perfectly evil ) which yet being thy own thou maist the better , and must however bear it from me . in proof of which , though it seem but a mad mans mad divinity to you more mad divines , and possibly a meer paradox to many more then meer parish priests , yet let it be considered . that every thing that can be truly ( according to god , & not after the manner of erring men onely ) said to be good , or righteousness , though so but in part , yet is as perfectly so , as it is truly said so to be : for howbeit all that , which is but in part , is by our academical rabbies , who count all plain countrey russet-coats but rusticks in comparison of themselves , counted but imperfect , and commonly so called , as if in pa●t and imperfect were ever synonomous , and all one , so that in their benighted minds , they oft render that place , cor. . as t. d. till he was corrected , did at the dispute , thus ( viz. ) when that which is ( perfect ) is come , then that which is ( imperfect ) whereas that which is ( in part ) and but aliqualiter , not yet aequaliter or so perfect as the other is , is opposed to that which is more perfect to its degree only , yet as to its nature , which different degrees do never alter ( for that gradus non variant naturam rei , is received for truth by all ) that which is truly good , righteousness , light , uprightness , holiness , truth , though but some part of that fuller measure that once shall be , yet is not onely really the same , but as perfectly the same in suo genere , as that which is perfect in degree also is in its kind ; that is to say , as perfectly good , as perfectly righteousn●●s , &c. as good , righteousness , light , grace , uprightness , holiness , truth is in the highest measure . every d●am of grace is perfectly grace , every degree of true good perfectly good , every grain of holiness perfectly holiness , as every spark of fire is perfectly fire and perfect fire , and every drop of water perfect water as well as the whole ocean , as every babe ( as to the nature ) is perfectly a man and a perfect man , as he is that is a man in stature : holiness in the least measure of it , is the gift of god , and i know no imperfect gift that he giveth , who is the giver of every good and pe●fect gift , and every one of whose gifts is perfect : all that is perfect is of god , and all that is perfect , which is of god , from whom no imperfect thing can come ; and all true good and holiness is of god , and all sin , unholiness , unrighteousness & imperfection is of the devil , and all , that is imperfect , whic his of the devil , from whom no thing that 's good or truly perfect can come ; and all sin is properly nothing but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , transgression , defect and imperfection it self , and whoever sinneth is born of the devil , and he that is of the d●vil ( while so ) is not born of god , nor in a state of salvation , nor in the election , but in the reprobation and rejection , and what is born of god , in that state , sinneth not , and he that sinneth not is not in a state of condemnation , for he doth righteousness , and he that doth righteousness is righteous as god is righteous , ho●y as he is holy , pure at he is pure and perfect as he , whose child he is , is perfect , and is ( as so ) not in the alienation , reprobation and rejection , but in the love , acceptation or iustification . and whereas our divines talk , as if that only were perfect , to which nothing can be added , that 's a false ignorant , and blind assertion , for as there is a perfection ( such is that of god ) which admits of no addition , so there is a true perfection that is without any ●mperfection sin a●d corruption , which is capable of addition , & to which more maybe added , and such is that of man , who may be truly said to be perfect and not imperfect , & yet to grow on to a fuller measure and stature of that divine nature , grace , and holynesse , which was perfect and not imperfect before , though not so perfect , but that a greater degree in it may be attained ; as he that thrives in iniquity , which is defect and imperfection , becomes thereby more and more imperfect : adam in innocency was perfect , and so perfect in righteousnesse that he had no unrighteousnesse or imperfection , and though not without tempta●ion ( as christ was not , who never sinned ) yet clean from all transgression : yet not so perfect as to be utterly uncapable of any addition to that glory he then stood in . and christ iesus him●elfe was a perfect child of god from the womb as to the divine nature he was born in , yet grew in stature , and was one who did no evill , in whom was no sin , nor was any guile found in him , nor was he in a damnable condition , and that gift of the grace and wisdome of god , that was in him , was perfect grace and wisdome ; and the least degree of grace that any saint hath is perfect grace , a perfect and not an imperfect gift of god , according to the rule and measure of which as every one walketh , he is so far perfect , though but a babe , and yet saints may grow therein from babes in nature to young men in stature , which of young men , though it is not the highest stature in the church here on earth yet obtains to so much strength as to overcome the wicked one , and from thence to be old men of full growth and age , more intimately acquainted with god the father , and to the unity of the knowledge of the son of god , the very measure of the stature of the fulnesse of christ himselfe : and therefore thy saying t.d. that babes and young men are imperfect p. . as i do not , and that true grace is imperfect , and true obedience and good works are imperfectly good , and sin and evill perfectly evill and such like , is such a whim-wham , as shewes thy selfe to be yet so imperfect ( as no babe in christ is ) in thy understanding of the things of god ; and such a saying as hath nothing in it ( if i may without absurdity tune it back to thee in thy own imperfect tone ) but perfect imperfection flat , falshood , deep darknesse , and meere confusion . so that all true good is perfectly good , and all that 's really evill is properly evill , all true light of what kind soever in the least degree is in its kind perfectly light , and all darknesse properly darknesse , and all that 's properly and truly term'd righteousnesse in the meanest measure is as perfectly righteousnesse , as all kind of unrighteousnesse , and as all sin is really the transgression of a law , for there 's no transgression where is no law , and the least transgression of the law in the least part is really or properly sin , so every act of true obedience to the light , or law , is , though but in part , and not so perfect a conformity , yet truly and properly and perfectly a●co f●●mi●y to it , and not a violation of it ; and such a perfect act of obedience as is not only not disobedience , but so absolutely contrary to an act of disobedience , as that it deserves not the reward of an of act disobedience , which is condemnation , but consequently the contrary , which is non-condemnation , which can amount to no less then acceptation , or , which is much at one , iustification from all guilt ( for there 's none contracted ) and salvation from that wrath , which is to come and which comes upon none for any obedience , but on all the children of disobedience , only . thus every thing , but sin and imperfection , is perfectly , what it is truly , and tho●e works are not truly good ( however falsly so cal'd ) that are not perfectly good , and what work is truly good is perfectly good . and of this sore are all the works of christs working by his spirit in our persons ( viz. ) as truly and perfectly good in genere , if not gradu , as those he wrought in the same spirit and power in his own ▪ who never yet did any work that is evill , or but imperfectly good ; yea as truly an perfectly good , as both the worst and the best that you do without him are really and properly evill : and consequenly being contrary to your evill works , which merit condemnation , meritorious of that contrary reward of acceptation , or justification . and no lesse then this last , dost thou t.d. to the contradicting thy selfe in thy other sayings confesse to us thy selfe in these words , evill works , which are the violation of the law , deserve damnation , ergo good works which are the fulfilling the law deserve salvation , and as thou saift , so say we , we know no good works such , but christs ; and , say i , i know no works of christ that ●re not such , and that deserve nor salvation , whether those that were wrought by him in that single person , which was crucified 〈◊〉 ierusalem , or those that are wrought by him in his saints ; though thou seem'st to thy self to be so wise ( whose folly therefore is the more manifest to all men ) as to know a christ and as to know some operations and good works and righteousnesse of that christ , wrought by him alone in his saints , and by them received from him , and whereof christ himselfe is the author , which thou art so far from owning any justification by and from esteeming so highly of as they deserve , that ( as to any such gain as iustification deserved for us , or derived to us thereby ) thou disclaimst them utterly as meere dung , and losse , and filthy rags , and ( absit blasphemia ) doom'st them down to hell as deserving no better then your wickednesses and your own ( miscal'd ) righteousnesses do , the merit of which is neither more nor lesse then condemnation ; and all this he that is minded to trace thee p. . . . . in thy meandrous talkings to and fro , in and out , where thou dancest the hay up and down in the clouds of contradiction and confusion , cannot chuse but take notice of , unlesse he be so blind , as that his eyes can see no farther then his nose reaches . for ( mark ) p. . thou i fasly chargest us with the guilt of that sin of the iewes rom. . . . ( viz. ) making our own righteousnesse our justification . . thou relatest g.w. clearing us ofthat , saying that we do not make our own righteousnesse our justification , but the righteousness of god is that we testifie , being made manifest in us , according to the scripture , phil. . . not our own righteousnesse wich is ●f the law , ( that is ) any personal conformity to the law in that outward letter , that we can make by any ability of ours without the power of christ , such was that of the iews and pauls establishing to himself , as his gain , and righteousnesse before his conversion to that of christs , for that and no other is it , which paul calls his own , and the iewes own , and not that which christ wrought in him , & cloth'd him with and enabled him to perform ( as thou blasphemously bolt'st it out ) but that which is through the faith of christ , the righteousnesse which is of god by faith : to which though thou seem'st to assent in these words ( viz. ) the apostle by his own righteousnesse understands [ his ] personall conformity to the law , and by christ righteousnesse , that which is of christ made his by faith , by which terme ( his ) if thou intendest ( his ) as abstract from christ , his weak strivings in his own strength to keep the law , and not that personall conformity to it , he was at last enabled to by the spirit and power of christ intimated , rom. . , , , . thou fallest in with us , who make that genuine distinction between all meere mans righteousnesse and all that righteousnesse that is of christ. but now , as if thine eyes were grown too dimme to discern that distinction , thou blindly blendest these two together again into own , putting no difference at all between o v r good works , or meer mans righteousnesse , which in his own will , wisdom , strength , and vain imagination he works beside the light , and out of christ , and those good works , or that righteousnesse , which is of god alone , which by the pure power and spirit of christ is wrought in and by them , and which they by him are enabled to perform , which is specifically one and the very same with that in christ himselfe , from whom it is of god through the faith of christ made theirs , or made over to them that is not meerly and imaginarily ( as the priesthood prates ) accounted , and imputed , but really and truly derived and imparted to them , and revealed ( as it s said to be rom. . . ) from faith to faith in the light of the gospel to them that beleive therein , so that of the fulnesse of that righteousness of god that dwels in him , they all receive grace for grace to the true washing , iustification , sanctification , and salvation of them from all that unrighteousnesse by which they became guilty before god , while they stood in no other righteousnesse but their own . yea that righteousnesse of christ in his saints , which is in kind the selfe same with that in himselfe , thou both denyest to avail one iot to justification , and also confoundest into one and the self same with that of meer mans own working which from god is for ever to be confounded . witnesse thy own words who saift thus t.d. i deny justification by christ within us ; — we deny our justification by that righteousnesse in us whereof christ is the author — two things are indeed meant by the name of christ his person and his operations in us , and i deny the latter , but assert the former for our righteousnesse to justification . rep. oh gro's , horrid , hideous and fordid ! are not the righteousness and the operations of christ in his saints the same that were in his own flesh ? are they not of the same with , validity , and desert , being his own still , whether done in himselfe , or in us , and as truly and perfectly good , being done by christ , who can work nothing but that which is truly good and perfect , whether in his saints or himselfe ? and suppose every title of thy tattle were true , that thou telst us p. . ( viz. ) that those works that merit must not be due , and his good works , who owes none ( though who that is that owes none to god and from whom to god none are due i know not , and whether it became not christ to be holy , harmlesse , undefiled , separate from sinners , & whether he ought not in all things to be like his brethren i 'le not stand here to dispute , but lea●e to heb. . . . to determine ) and yet whether all that he doth in what person so ere he doth it in , doth not merit , i need not prove to a wi●e man , for he will not put me to it . but i say , suppose it to be all true , that his good works , who owes none and from whom none are due , and is an infinite person , do as truly deserve non condemnation , and his e●ill works , from whom only good works are due , as from a finite creature to an infinite creator , do truly deserve damnation , the desert of the obedience of the one arising from the dignity of the subject by which it s performed , as the desert of the others disobedience from the dignity of the object against which it it is committed : yet what makes all this to the mending of thy muddy matter , who wouldst make christ himselfe and his good works and operations of righteousnesse in his saints of no such moment as to merit or effect their justification before god ; is not christ the subject by which , though the saints ( who are his body flesh & bones ) are the subject in which those works of his are perform'd in● them , as well as the subject by which those were done , that were done in his naturall body in the dayes of his fleshly being here on earth ? yea is not he the subject in which also those in his saints are performed , while what ere he doth by them he doth in them , & what they do by him they do in him , & the person & subject being the same , is not the dignity of the doer as deserving when he does good , or obeys the will of god in one age , place & person , as well as when in another ? & does what righteousness he works in and by his , or destroy the merit thereof , body more then that which he wrought in and by that body which was the head ? and and is not christ iesus , who is known to be in all them that are not reprobates , cor. . . and who is the same yesterday , to day , and forever , heb. . . as infinite a person now , and as infinite in all his operations as ever , and are not his operations as good , and his righteousness ( which thou for want of his wisdom , being ignorant that god calls it an everlasting righteousness ( i.e. ) that which is infinite or without end . dan . . callest but finite , p. . and yet , in thy wonted way of self-contradiction , infinite also , saying , we cannot contain an infinite righteousness in us , and the righteousness which god works in us , is but finite , so making either two righteousnesses of god , whose righteousness is but one , or else distinguishing that one into two sorts , finite and infinite , which is but one in kind ( viz. ) infinite and everlasting , though dwelling in different degrees in god , christ , and the saints but well maist thou do this , whilest thou makest so many christs as thou didst at the dispute , and hast done since , in thy crooked account thereof ] i say , is not that everlasting righteousness of his working in the saints , and bringing near to them , isa. . . as everlasting , as infinite as of old , and of as infinite value , every where as it is any where ? in that body of his whereof he is the head , as in that person which was the head of his body ? yet t.d. denies it to be of any worth to justifie , and affirms it to be but mans own righteousness , which is dung , loss and rags , procuring no more to him by desert then his wickedness , which merits no more then condemnation ; and in further evidence of this , let thy own words p. . and p. . be well considered , and compared where thou sayest thus . t. d p . do you think that the righteousness which the apostle calls his own , phil. . . was not christs ? had he any righteousness which he had not received ? and yet that righteousness which was in the apostl , never was in christ as the subject , but was wrought in him by christ as an efficient cause : and christ had an inherent righteousness , in respect of which he was said to know no sin , and to be a lamb without spot or bl●mish ; are not here then two righteousnesses ? and they serve for two different ends , the one for our justification , the other for our sanctification , the one gives us a right to the inheritance of the saints in light , the other makes us meet for possession . and p. , all our righteousnesses ( not our unrighteousnesses onely ) are as filthy rags . rep. oh rare and base ! what whirle-pools , and whirle-gigg , and whimseyes , and gimcracks are here ? compound all this deep d●vinity of t.ds. together . some of which but not all ( for other some the blackest of his brethren i believe will blush at ) is that which others store themselves with by stealth out of the common standing-stock of theology , which few divines dare stir a foot from ; and here is such a manifest mess of medly , such a heap of hotch-potch , as scarce ever crept out so openly upon the stage before since the world , which should be christs school , was by its disputers and schollers made their fencing-school against christ and his disciples . i shall segregate the absurdities of this absolute parcel , in which else they may by unseen , being jumbled together among some undeniable truths , and set them down in their own colours , to the view of all . . mark reader , how t. d. divides the righteousness of christ inherent in himself , and imparted from him to his saints ; which who is not so blear-eyed that every single object seems double to him , cannot but say and see is one and the self same , into two righteousnesses , one of which ( though he confesses they are both christs and wrought , by him alone as the efficient ) was notwithstanding ( as he sayes ) never in christ as the subject at all . . how these two points hang together , as well as things can do , that are all to pieces , ( viz. ) that paul had no righteousness , which was not christs , and which he had not received from christ , and yet that which he received from christ , christ never had in himself , nor was it ever inherent in him : which if it doth not contradict the school ma●im● , which no well - skil'd scholler disowns of , nil dat id quod in se prius non habet vel formaliter vel virtualiter saltem & eminenter , nothing can give infuse or derive that to another , which it first hath not in it self , and which resides not in it self as the subject , wherein the same one way or other is , or formally or vertually inherent ( which i 'le not spend time here so nicely or exactly to examine ) yet i am sure it expresly and egregiously disagrees with those undeniable testimonies of the scripture , which faith not onely iohn . . a man can receive nothing ( that is of god , grace , righteousness , &c. ) except it be given him from above ; but also that in christ are bid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge , that in him dwelleth all the fulness of the godhead bodily , col. . , . that the spirit of grace , a manifestation of which is given to every man to profit withal , according to the measure of the gift of christ , who taketh of his own glory , grace , &c. and giveth to his saints , distributing to everyone severally as he will , is by the father given first to him not by measure , that his disciples may also , as they do , of that fulness which dwells first in him receive of the same in some measure grace for grace , john . . and . . and this stops that creep-hole whereby t. d. wots he winds himself out p. . where he saith , christs righteousness in the saints was never formally existent in him as the spirits are in the brain : for as the spirits are in the brain , and communicated thence to other parts of the body , so the graces of the spirit are all in christ the head , and communicated to all the members of his body , as truly and formally as the typical ointment that was poured on aarons head , was communicated from thence to his beard ; and ran down to the skirts of his clothing . . note well , how that very righteousness which was wrought in the apostle , after his convertion , by christ and received from christ , and so by t. ds. own confession , was christs , is by t. d. first divided off from that righteousness , which was inherent in christ , though it be christs as well as the other , and indeed as undivided from it as christ , who is indivisible , is within himself ; and set apart and aloof from it as quite another , us if it were scarce any kin to that that dwelt in christ the head ; and not onely so , but secondly pacht and packt up into one with pauls own righteousness , which he gloried in before his convertion ( for what paul calls his own , was that he had of old , and had left and lost too as dung and loss ( as much as he once thought it gain ) before ere he received any from christ and disgraced and digraded so far below it self , and its own true worth and dignity , as to be ranks with pauls own , yea to be made and counted on as no other but his own , the self same as he and the wicked iewes , as t.d. sayes p. . who were as ignorant as our priests are of gods righteousness , went about to establish to their iustification : he makes that righteousness , those good works which by christ we are enabled to perform , no other then our own good works , our own righteousness , all which as well as our unrighteousness t.d. beckons but as filthy rags , nay no better , nor any other then that , which paul calls his own ; which own of his , he having once counted it gain , he had now suffer'd the loss of , and counted but loss and dung that he might be clothed with christs : which doctrine of t.d. if it were true ( but god forbid that any should take it from him for truth , for its most abominably false ) yet let 's see at least what use of information were to be drawn from it , and in a word it s this : . that the righteousness of christs own working in his saints , and that which the saints received by faith from iesus christ , and that fulness of it that dwells in him , is but meer mans righteousness , which he must utterly suffer the loss of , and count on not as gain at any hand , but as loss and dung before he can know christ , or receive or be clothed with the righteousness , which is through the faith of christ , the righteosness , which is of god by faith in him : and . that the foresaid righteousness of christ which he works in us , and we by fath receive from him is but our own , and is no better ( even all of it ) then our unrighteousnesses are , that is as filthy rags before the lord : he that readeth this , let him understand it if he can , annd receive it for truth if he dare ; but if he do not , let him know , that t.d. hath done his best ill will to the truth that he can , to reach it to all men for no less then truth however , though such folly , falshood ( not to say blasphemy ) it is , that worse scarce ever fell from the pen of a professed preacher . . one observation more which is scarce fit to be noted to any other use or purpose , but to the noting of t.d. to be such a notable none-such as is ( deservedly ) nigro carbone notandus , arises from t.ds. discourse about the two righteousnesses of christ , one of which he calls mans own and filthy rags , ( as if paul , when a pharisee , had no righteousness of his own , that he stiled l●ss and dung , but that which was christs , and which he had received from christ , which what a loud tale it is , he is not much versed in the truth that cannot tell ) and that is in such wise as followeth ( viz. ) whereas t.d. tells ut of two different ends of the'e two righteousnesses of christ , as he doth also p. . the one whereof ( i.e. ) that which is inherent in christ , serves ( quoth h ) eto justifie us and give us a right as a cause of our title of the inheritance of the saints in light , the other ( i.e. ) the righteousness wrought in us by christ , which paul calls l●ss and dung , and t d. imperfect and filthy rags , to sanctifie us , and to make us meet for the possession of heaven , without which heaven would not be a place or state of blis● , nor we fit to enter into such a glorious holy place and inheritance among saints in light ; which of these two give us right to enter as the cause of our title i shall shew plainly by and by , saying onely at present against t.d. as 't is said . rev. . . that us doing gods commandments by the power of christ , as they are given out to us in the light , that gives us right , as well as makes us fit to enter , as well ius ad regnum , as aptitudinem regnandi : but from t. ds. doctrine , who teaches that the righteousness wrought in us by christ , which he also calls ovrs , and dung and filthy rags , serves to sanctify us , and make us fit and meet to enter into heaven , it s but meet here , least i meet not so fair an opportunity for it an on , to observe thus much to t. ds. shame , that if his doctrine were as true as it is false , that the righteousness of christ in us , which yet ( though wrought in us by him , and received by faith from him ) is but meerly our own according to t. d. and no gain , but loss , dung and filthy rags doth ( though not enright and entitle us to heaven ) yet at least wash , purifie , sanctifie and make us meet and fit to enter into it , so that without being purged , cleansed , sanctified and fitted by , or covered and clothed with the foresaid dung and filthy rags , we can in no wife be clean or fit enough to enter into that pure and holy place , into which no dung nor fi●h , nor unclean thing , nor ought that defileth can enter , nor ( say i ) whoever worketh such abomination , or maketh such a lye as t. d. doth , who danceth the rounds in this rotten doctrine of his , till a man can easily find neither head nor tail in it , nor truth nor unity with it self , nor sense nor reason , if he look on it in gross as it lyes together in the whole corrupted mass and unleavened lump , scarcely from one end of it into the other : yet thus it is , know all ye saints that are devoted to dance bud-winkt in the dark , to the tune of t.ds. loud trumpetings against the truth ( viz. ) that unless ye be clothed with the royal robes of that righteousness which is inhaerent in christ : person only , which is ( as they also say ) as far off you as heaven is from the earth , so that ye can't have it , but by that romish faith which is crede quod habes & habes , believe onely that ye have it , and ye have it , sure enough ( though sure enough ye have it not ) you can have no iustification , no right nor true title to enter into heaven : and unless ye put on and be clothed with the dung and filthy rags ( so t. d. partly expressly , partly implicitly calls it ) of that righteousness of your own ( as he terms it ) which is received from christ nevertheless , and wrought in you by him , if ye can believe t. d. ye are not meet in any wife to enter into heaven , but albeit ye have a real true right to enter , being ( though still in your sins ) already justified by the former , yet ye may not enter for all that real right ye have so to do , into so holy an habitation , for want of being cleansed , sanctified and made meet for it by this latter . so of the things that t. d. hath spoken ye have the summe . and so i come to some fuller examination of the way , by which , as a meritorious cause , our iustification comes , and our right and title to enter into the heavenly inheritance , and our meetness and fitness for the possession of it also . and first i shall shew what these matters come not by . . none of all this comes by any or all those good works or righteousnesses , which ( abstract from christ as the worker of them in and by man ) are most truly and properly mans own ; for howbeit t.d. charges us as crying up our own works of righteousness , not onely as our sanctification , but as , de iure , deserving iustification also or acceptance in gods fight , and entrance into his kingdom , yet ( but that his eye is so busie abroad that its utterly blinded from the sight of how 't is at home ) he might see us perfectly clear , and himself onely deeply guilty in part , yea wholly of the self same errour : for verily we say of all our own good works done by us out of him , and not by him in us , which onely are usually by god , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 also , properly term'd our own , they are , as man himself in the fall , who does them , is , altogether become unprofitable either to iustifie , sanctifie , save , entitle to , or fit us for gods kingdom : yea , what god himself doth isa. . we do and will declare of our own righteousness , that it cannot profit us , of our companies we are gone to , and congregatings with them , &c. in our own wills and thoughts , these cannot deliver us , the wind will take all these away , and as it hath done some already , so will all those that truth therein : we say as eph. . by grace we are saved , justified ( not in as you look to be , but ) from our sins ( in which we were once dead together with you , in which we sometime walked with you , who cannot believe that ye can he perfectly purged from them while you live , but that ye must live in some , and some in you , till you die , after the course of this world , the prince of the air , the spirit that still lives in you children of disobedience ) and in the rich mercy and great love of god , wherewith he hath loved us , made accepted in his beloved , quickn●d , raised up and made to sit together , not in fleshly lusts and eartly pallaces with painted professors of him , but in heavenly places in christ iesus ; and all this through faith , not of our selves , for its the gift of god , nor yet of ( self ) works so as that any of us can boast , for we are ( not our own , but ) his workmanship in all this created in christ iesus , whose new creatures we are unto the good works we now do in the light and movings of his spirit , in a cross to the will of our flesh , till it and the lust thereof be wholly crucified , and we to the wo●ld and the world to us , which god hath of old ordained in order to the eternal life he hath that way ordained us to , that we should walk in them ; yea , tit. . we were formerly ( for all our forms of religion , which yet were to the full as powerful as the best of your , or the most reformed formalists empty profession , without the possession of that godliness ye prate of ) fool●sh , disobedient , serving diverse lusts and pleasures ( as ye still do , and yet vainly hope to do well enough ) living in every malice , hateful and hating ; but since the goodness and love of god our saviour to mankind in christ the light appeared to us , we are from these sins justified and loved , for which judgment without mercy & wrath without remedy will come on you that judge your selves justified in them ; yet not by any works in the righteousnes that we have wrought , but according to his own mercy he ha●h saved us [ which saves to the uttermost and not by the halves as ye dream he does , who reckon without your host , who will reckon otherwise with you when he comes nigh to you to judgement , and ye come to account by the light , that all the sins past , and to come of you elect , and peculiarly priviledged , unsanctified saints are remitted , while they are [ as hourly they are ] yea , and long too before they are committed , and that you while as unjust and guilty as david in his very acts of adultery and murder , are yet acquitted , accounted just , and held guiltless by him who is of purer eyes then to behold iniquity , and not abhor it , and call that good that does evil , and who will by no means clear the guilty in his guilt , nor accept the filthy in his filth ] i say , according to his mercy he hath saved us by the washing ( mark ) of regeneration and the renewing of the holy spirit ; which he hath shed on us abundantly by iesus christ our saviour , to this end ( mark ) that we being justified by his grace , ( viz. ) shed on us freely by christ , not inhaerent in him onely as the subject , might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life : this and not thine t.d. is the faithful word ; and these are the truths about our iustification or salvation , that they of old were enjoined stedfastly to teach , that those that believed in god might be careful to maintain good works of this sort , as useful , good and profitable unto men , counting all their own ( which yet t.d. sayes are necessary to sanctifie and make meet ) as dung , loss , imperfect , impertinent , unprofitable and useless as filthy rags ? yea , finally as paul said of his own worships , works , righteousness and services , while he was a proud , puft up pharisee , as most of our formal scribes and modern ministers are ( for he calls not that his own , as t.d. does , but christs , which he was after clothed in , and by faith had received from him , and by him was enabled to perform and abound in ) * so say the qua. of theirs , and i of mine , if any man think he hath whereof to glory in the fl●sh of fl●sh●y wisdom , self-righteousness , outward performances , well-worships , inward workings of the mind in earnest imaginations , and of mans will in zealous hastings , willings , runnings , strivings after god and righteousness and good , in which yet the kingdom comes not , nor the righteousness of it ; i could say more then i am here minded to do ; but since i came in the light to feel the circumcision of the heart to the lord by himself , not made by the hands of man , and to witness the worth of the true worship of god in spirit and truth in the inner part , which his own witness within onely leads to , what good works of mine i once counted gain , i am now made by christ to count loss for those of christ : yea , for the excellency of the true knowledge of christ to be my lord , whom i once so called , but did not all that he said , for whom i have lost all that , and what more he hath yet called me to suffer the loss of , and do esteem all but as dung that i may win h●m and be found in him not clothed with the old righteousness of my own , which was once pauls , and called by me , and t.d. both but as filthy rags ( so i know no righteousness of christ is called by any besides t.d. ) but with that righteousness which is by faith in his light ( in which onely he is known ) revealed and received from him : and in the way of that faith by which god purifies the heart , which overcomes the world in it , and works by that love that fulfils the law in working no ill to the neighbour , wrought in me by him , even that righteousness which through faith in the light is of god , not ( as our devising diviners both devise and divine , to the making of the wicked ones seem just and good before god , when they are nothing less ) imputed , but to the true making of them really just and good , who before were wicked , imparted without difference to every one that truly believeth in him . so that i do not ( as t.d. sayes we do ) with the iews , that submitted not themselves to gods righteousnesse by faith in the light , which if they had done , they would have left and lost their own , go about to establish our own righteousnesse to justification . . neither do i cry up our own righteousnesse so high as t.d. does , who calls meerly mans own , christs righteousnesse received from , and wrought in man by him . . neither do cry down christs righteousnesse in some measure to man infused from that fulnesse of the same , that beyond measure dwels in christ ( as t.d. does ) so as with him to term these ( any otherwise then the spirit it selfe is pleased so to do to our encouragement in obeying isa. . ) our own , for vix ea nostra voco . . much lesse ( having st depressed and thrust them down far below themselves , under that diminitive denomination of ovr own , even those own of mans , which the iews , ignorant of gods went to establish , which were iniquity and abomination in gods eyes , and which paul calls dung and losse ) dare i be so blindly bold ( so t.d. is after he hath as undervaluingly , as untruly term'd them our own ) as with him blas●hemously to vilisy them yet further , under that bull●sh title of works but imperfectly good , but imperfect obedience and that more beastly and b●llish term ( which none that dwell in heaven can give , as in effect t.d. does to the works of christ ) of filthy rags . . least of all , or at least last of all , dare i venture so far as t.d. does ( who yet thinks we make too much of our own good works , obedience , righteousnesse , and too little of christs ) who having drawn these two righteousnesses and obediences ( viz. ) that of christs and mans which are as far distant from each other as heaven and earth , so neere together as to make but one of them , which he calls mans own , and yet christs , and christs and yet but mans own , & yields , whether meer mans or christs to be ( as paul cald his ) but dung and losse , and as t.d. calls all ours , but imperfect and rotten rags , after all this concludes that such a meer chimera and non entity as this mingle-mangle of his own making , which hath a being no where but in his own b●ain , and is not so much as ens●rationis , but rather ens irrational tatis , is available to sanctifie and make meet for heaven , for i deny , that any righteousnesse that is no better then dung and filthy rag ; is available at all as a cause of either justification or sanctification , of right to , or fitnesse for the saints inheritance : and howbeit i eternally exalt every 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of christs obedience , every grain of that good he works , who works no evill , and every dram of his righteousness in him else or us to be eternall● and d●servedly accepted of god ; and entitling to and fitting for fellowship with god and the saints in light ; yet as for that bipartite pipald puppet , and meerly imagined imp of t. d.'s . dressing out in ( what should i call it ? ) christs righteous robes , of mans rotten , rags ; i deny either merit or meetnesse to come by that meer none knows what : for if it be christs own indeed , or ever came from him as good , righteousnesse , obedience done or perform'd by him , though in us , ● cannot be imperfect , dung and filthy rags and immeritorious , but deserv●●g , and serving ( according to the measure of it in us ) both to justify and sanctifie , and as well to give right to , as to fit for the kingdom , the desert of every degree of his obedience arising from the dignity of his person that performes it●● but if it be meer mans own ( as t.d. saves pauls dung and losse was , though wrought by christ and received from him ) then it s but dung and losse ( as paul call'd his ) and , to speake in t. d.'s . bald phrase , but imperfectly good , and imperfect obedience and as truly filthy rags , as both truly and properly t.d. calls all ours : but then neither meriting , nor so much as making meet for the heavenly inheritance , and yet whether t.d. doth not in effect say it doth ( though he unsay it again , for to gainsay himself is as ordinary as it is to say at all , wellnigh with him ) let it be considered by comparing his own sayings . t.d. do you think ( quoth t.d. p. . that righteousnesse , which paul calls his own was not christs ? had be any righteousnesse , which he had not receved ? that righteousness , which was in the apostle , never was in christ , as the subject , but was wrought in him by christ. rep. i might reply yea , that righteousnesse paul calls his own , and calls dung and losse also , and had lost for christ , was not christs , nor received from , nor wrought in him by christ , and he that makes pauls own which was dung and losse , and christs , which is all gainfull to man , and not dung , but most savoury to god , both one ( as t.d. does . ) will once rue it , that ever he wrote so over honourably and transcendently of mans , and so dishonourably and disdainfully , without more distinction of it from mans , of the everlasting righteousnesse of christ and the living god. but yet to do t.d. so much pleasure as to convince him of his confusion , and incomparable contradiction to himselfe ( though every one shall not have it so from me ) let it passe by way of false supposition , that pauls own righteousnesse he reckons on as dung and losse , though once he thought it gain , and christs now received by him , and since the losse of pauls own wrought in him ( which yet was indeed that true godlynesse which paul elsewhere calls great gain and profitable to all things ( mark ) having the promise of this life and that to come so entaild to it , that it can entitle all that live in it thereunto ) be all one , as t.d. will needs have it , what serves this imperfect drossy , dunghilly , worse then nothing righteousnesse , of pharasaicall paul to , alias by t.d. most duncically , called christs ) what advantage is to man by this meer loss ' oh much every way ( quoth t.d. ) for i though it serves not for our justification , nor to give us right as a cause of our title to the saints inheritance ( for that righteousnesse that dwels in christ alone , no neerer to us in readity , but imaginarily only , then heaven is , where he sits , serves only and only serves for that ) yet the robes ( alias filthy rags of it secundum te t.d. ) that reach down to cloath us here , that we may be adorn'd as like him , as filthy rags can make us like to one in pure robes , these serve to make us suitable to such a glorious presence , and meet for such an holy inheritance , p. . . ipse dixit . but i dare not descend after t.d. so deeply into these ( shallow ) depths of satan , so as to condescend to it as truth , but must needs condemn it as delusion and deceit , for none of pauls meer own righteousnesse , no dung and losse , no imperfectly good works , nor imperfect obedience , nor such as that of the iews establishing , nor any , nor all our righteousnesses which t.d. and i together with our unrighteousnesse dare denominate no otherwise then as filthy rags , doth so much as fit for that pure possession : neithe can such as this entitle , as a cause , thereunto ; yea if the righteousnesse of christ within us , wrought by him and received from him were indeed no better then t.d. makes it , who makes it no better then mans own , i should then acknowledge the who'e sentence to be true , which t.d. once utterd and sinc● acknowledges the truth of p. . which ( seeing he intends it of that true righteousnesse of christ in his saints which we testifie to , that it s not that which paul calls his own , and dung , but christs own indeed , who is the only author of it ) is somewhat more then a meer lye and little lesse then b●astly blasphemy as t.d. affirms it , ( viz. ) that any man that holds that principle of being justified by a righteousnesse within us , living and dying in that principle ca●n●t be saved . but indeed christs righteousnesse within us only is that by which souls can be saved , as i shall shew anon , for that without , which is in kind the same , never iustifies , makes just , righteous , holy cleane , nor saves from the sin till some of the same be in us ; every measure of the gift of which , though but a part of the whole , is as perfect as the st . fruit , and the meer earnest of the spirit is a perfect gift , and as perfectly good ( in its kind ) according to its mea●ure , as the whole lump and fulnesse out of which it is given , and is that , which is by t.d. though but a part , but improperly called imperfectly good and imperfect obedience , p. . for no obedience nor good that 's of christ no● gift of the heavenly father in him is any other in nature then they both are ( i. ) perfect as they are pe●fect , and as the fulnesse of good that , dwels in , and flows from them , is perfect without any imperfection : and 't is only perfect obedience , as only that of christ whether in the head or in the m●mbers of his body , is , not any mans own upon or for which the gospell gives life and justification : yet ( oh the rounds that t.d. runs in , which there 's no way out of , but by the dore , that is the light , which all the●ves and robbers are climbing above ) t.d. tells us another untrue tale p. . which overturns that untrue tale he told before for p. . he said no salvation is of any by a righteousnesse within , for any , that b●leive it must come that way , for what 's within us , though rec●ved from and wrought by christ , is but imperf●ctly good , p. . . and rags : but p. . he sayes the gospell gives life ( mark ) upon imp●fect obedience . so according to t.d. who sometimes rejects all righteousnesse within us , as imperfect , as refuse , and as uselesse as filthy rags , which are good for no●hing , sometimes again allowes that which paul calls his own and dung to be called christs and good for s●mthing ( viz. ) though not to justifie and entitle as a cause , or that upon which ( which term upon though t d would in p. of his pamphlet shuffle into a more moderate sense then its properly taken in , which is as much as to say for as the cause of , he therein doth but more manifest his folly to all men ) the gospell gives the inheritance of life , yet at least to sanctify , and make meet for , p. . . . but then this righteousnesse within ( whether christs or our own , which is dung , and christs also by gift to him ) must take heed however of creeping too high , for if it aspire so as to assume to it selfe to be own'd us advantagious to justifie and entitle , as that upon which the life is given , it must be hu●l'd down again to ●ary hell , for t.d. p. . do 〈◊〉 all them to damnation by whole ●ale below all possibility of salvation , that dare so much as hold that principle of being saved by it ; but for fear his damnation should be damned again as too damnable a doctrine , if he should not moderate it as to the legall rigidity thereof , seeing he sayes the law gives life upon perfect obedience and not without it , and can't beleive any obedience that christ can work in his saints , in this life , can be perfect , but all that he here works within men , imperfect , and none perfect , but that he wrought without them , as far off as ierusalem as long as . years since , and hath now inherent in himself , no neerer to them then heaven is to the earth ; he bethinks himselfe or else forgets himself again , so far ( its not matter which ) as to cut off the entail of eternall life , which the law gives upon no other then absolutely perfect obedience , and ●nta●l●s the promise of it under the gospell ( whether christs or ours or both i know not which , and i think he knows not well himselfe ) unto an imperfect obedience , as that upon which ( mark ) life is given under the gospell : and contrary to christ who tells us , math. . that the gospell righteousnesse which reaches to the thoughts must exceed and be more perfect , ( if more perfect can be , but more then perfect cannot be ) then that of the pharisees , whereof paul was one that as to the righteousnesse of the law was blamelesse , yet came not neer that of the gospel , there 's in no case any entrance into the kingdome t.d. sayes p. . the law gives not life without perfect obedience , the gospell gives it upon imperfect obedience ; thus posito uno absurdo sequuntur mil● , & error minimus in principio fit major in m●di● , maximus in fine . when our men call'd ministers erre by one absurdity , rather then return , they multiply it into a . and rather loose themselves in the laborinth of their own learned , thoughts , then learn of christ and stoop to the simplicity and plainnesse of the truth as it is in iesus , for but that they love that smoother and smoake of the pit rev. . they came out of , in aperto et facili posita est salus : the grace of god which brings the salvation , appeares to all men , teaching such as are willing to learn at it to deny ungodlynesse and worldly lusts and to live godly , righteously and s●berly in this present world , which life they hope not to live till the world to come , where ( unlesse the pope purgato●y be a truth , and their own true doctrine , when they say as the tree fa●ls , so it lyes , be a lye ) 't is too late to begin it . and in such a wood and wooden wheele , as to and fro , in and out , up and down , round about here and there , no way out , doth t.d. wander about this matter of our justification by the righteousnes , good works and obedience of christ within his saints : one while saying one thing of it , anon another , sometimes that its christs own wrought by him , received from him , sometimes their own , even that own of theirs , which is imperfect , dung , losse , and 〈◊〉 rags , which was theirs long before ere they knew him : sometimes in another sense , then that the spirit calls them both their own and his own also ; somtimes this , sometimes that , now that it serves for nothing being but imperfectly good ( unlesse filthy rags be good for anything ) then that as very losse and dung , as paul counted his own , that it serves him for something ( viz. ) to fit for heaven , but not to enright to it , as the same in himselfe d●th and so its tantum , but not quantum , now that its no lesse then losse of life , to expect life upon it , then that as imperfect as it is , the gospell gives life upon ● : so it somtimes this , and sometimes that , sometimes himself well know ; not what : thus that single double righteousnesse whereof man is the actor , but whether himselfe , or christ the author is scarce distinctly determined by t.d. heating about in the tossing cock b●at of t. d.'s . brain , advanced one while up to the highest heaven , and by and by deba●ed again to the depths of hell , like men in a ship that are whiffled up and down in a troubled sea , which the wicked , who are never well in their wits , nor soundly stablish in the truth are ever like to , of whom one may say with the p●● , iamjam tacturos sydera sumna putes , iamjam tacturos ta ta a●igra putes . and with the prophet pal. . . . they mount up to the heavens , they go down again into the depths : they ●eel to and fro and stagger like a drunken man , and 〈◊〉 their wits end . never did i read or see in so small a piece of work so many ringles and rounds as t.d. makes and runs in , except i. o's . who in many things makes , whether so many or more , i cannot yet say , but i am sure many as plain round o's , and cris crosses to himselfe , as most men can likely do it , that set not themselves to it , in so little a compass as his is contained in , since i began to dive into the bottomlesse pit of that thing call'd divinity , or ●o discern the shallow divinations of the ( so deemed ) deep divines . chap. . having hewed my way to it throw those craggy contradictions of t.d. to himselfe about it , and dispersed and vanquisht some of the dark vapours , wherewith he had vailed that question , that lyes between us , i shall now vent my verdit on it , in a more plain open view , and having negatively declared , whose righteousnesse , and good works , justification and life is not given upon and discarded all those of meer mans own , as d●ng , losse , rags , imperfect , and ( what ever t.d. falsly charges on us , as affirming it , or affirms himselfe of life given upon imperfect obedience , and meetnesse to inherit it by pauls own , which he renounced ) of no worth , to give any influence into these matters ; i shall shew whom and whose good works and righteousnesse , life comes by , and is given upon , yea i here positively affirm that by none but christ alone iustification unto life can come ; nor is there either title to the inheritance , or fitnesse to possesse it , by any other good works or righteousnesse save those of the lord iesus only , whose only , and all whose works , even in the very least degree thereof , when or whereever wrought , are perfectly good , when the best of meet mans are as t.d. sayes but imperfectly good , which is as much as to say imperfect-perfect things , every truly good thing being properly perfect , and every perfect thing properly good , and every imperfect thing properly evil , and every evil imperfect , or rather defect and imperfection it self ; and every perfect thing good for somthing , and every imperfect perfect thing ( without gods wisdome , who orders sin to his own glory ; and is easily able to bring good out of evill ) being properly & per se good for nothing . yea this stone of israel gen. . . christ which was ever set at nought by you builders who seem to your selves so much to build upon him , but are seen more then any to build beside him , and stumble at him , is now again become the head in the corner , act. . . . neither is there salvation in any other , nor any other name under heaven given among men , whereby they must be saved then that of the lord our righteousnesse who is , not here in this world simply so accounted ( as 't is , simplicer satis , accounted on by our ac●demicks ) and then made to us of god , wisdome , righteousnesse sanctification , redemption , hereafter in the world to come , but so ready made to us here and that perfectly too ( so far as he is perfectly trusted to and h●ped in pet. . . for salvation ) salvation from god , to such as expect not more the pardon and forgivenesse of what is past , then pu●ging from and power to forgo all sin , and all unrighteousness in due time to come , who have the witness within themselves of all iniquity to be ( as they waite on him ) so truly done away and remited , as ( though they meet with temptation ( as christ did ) which is not transgression if withstood ) not to be done , nor at all committed any more : ioh. . . . cor. . . . psal. . . . and this peculiar priviledge , and high prerogative hath he , who is the head , and hath ( as he is well worthy ) in all things the preheminence over his body , which he is the saviour of , purchased to himselfe by his free humiliation and b●eience to death even the death of the grosse , to be in perfect power to save to the uttermost , all that shall ever come unto god by him . now much if not most of this is in general granted and assented to by all ( viz. ) that iustification to life and salvation is by none but christ , and by no other righteousnesse , but that , which is most peculia●ly and properly called his , and not mans ; but still the question about which sub●judice lis est ( viz. ) what christ it is ( for t.d. makes two at least if not more ( viz. ) a christ within , and a christ without ) and what righteousnesse of christ it is ( for t.d. makes two righteousnesses of christ also ( viz. ) one within us and another in him without us , ) by whom , and upon which the title to iustification and the inheritance comes . and to this i answer that as i know no other person nor thing , that gives us title to salvation then christ and his righteousnesse , so i know no other christ then that one , which the scripture speakes of , that dyed at ierusalem , and was crucified in the great city , spiritually called sodom and egypt , and was an immaculate lamb , slain by the beast from the foundation of the world , by whose blood his saints ever were , and still are redeemed and cleansed from all their sins , and by the eating and drinking whose flesh and blood they have life in themselves , whom they also as paul and others did , witnesse speaking , living , working , labouring in them , comming into them , ( as they open to him ) supping with them , manifesting himselfe to them , as they keep his commandements ( when not to the world that break them ) making his abode with them , dwelling in them by faith , walking in them as they in him , formed in them , being in them that are in the faith , and not reprobate as concerning the faith , as some are , who dream they have it , the hope of glory , even christ iesus , the son of god , the seed of abraham according to the flesh , risen from the dead , and alive for ever , the second man , the lord from heaven , the quickning spirit , that shewed himselfe to his disciples , comming in where they were , the dores being shut , appearing to them in what f●●m he would , vanishing out of their sight at what time he pleased ; christ , the wisdome of god , the power of god , the word of god , the righteousnesse of god , the sanctification and salvation of god , the image of god , the true vine of the branches , the dore of the sheep , the light of the world , and by his light in them , the judge and condemnation of all that hate it , and perfect saviour of all that come to god by him , and to him in it , the same that ever he was yesterday to day and for ever , the selfe same and not another , no changling but numerically the same to them that see him , as the wo●ld does not , who are commenting on him , but cannot comprehend him , guessing at , but cannot k●n him , naming themselves after him , but are no kin to him , not divided but individually one not one without us , and a different thing in us , as t.d. dictates , ●aying two things are called christ his person and his operations in us p. . but one without us , and that same one in us , seen to be but one , and the same without them , and one , and the same in them by the single eye of them that are ( being joyned to him , cor. . ) one and the same spirit in him , though ●eeming two christs to the doubleey , that never yet saw clearly any true christ , for he that imagines any more then one christ knowes not aright that one that is , but ( what ere he thinks ) unlesse it be some false ones , in truth hath truly ●een just none at all . and as i own no other christ but that one , by whom life comes to all that beleive in his light ; so i own the life to come by that one christ not as withou● us , but as comming within us , and contrarily to t.d. at the dispute , who ( as he truly relates it , to his own fuller shame p. . ) being asked by g.w. whether we are not iustified by christ with in us ? answered no but by christ without us ; which christ ( to make but one of him still , whom t.d. by his metonymy metamorphosyes into two things expressed by that one name , his person and operations ) as without or while without and not come into them , is no more to them , who when he comes in them are his saints , then he is to all them who are without him in the world whose condemnation he is by his light , because they yet beleive not in it , that he , in whom is life , whose life is the light of men , by it might come into them , and make them partakers of the life ioh. . but as he comes in ( and men behold he now cometh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in myriads of his holy ones . jud. . to convince all the ungodly of their ungodly deeds , and the hard speeches that ungodly sinners have spoken against him ) so is he made not only their sanctification to cleanse , and make them meet for the pure lord to look upon with delight , as vessels of honour sitted for him to take pleasure in , but also even so , and no otherwise then so , as within , and bringing forth his own image , and righteousnesse within them , is he their righteousnesse to justification , so as to enright and entitle them , to the gracious acceptance in the sight of the lord , which by his own holy presence , and holy spirit , and holy operations in them , he hath first● fitted them for . and as by him else not as without us , but us within us , ●o by that obedience , and those good works of righteousness ; both active and passive of himselfe , not as without us only ( as is blindly beleived by our blind guides , and their beleivers ) but as within us wrought and performed , doth he really become our righteousnesse to the iustification of us in gods sight and an entitler of us , to the inheritance , and a sanctifier and sitter of us for it , and also we the righteousnesse of god in him : for though whatever he did , and endured without in that body that liv'd and dyed at ierusalem , was as truly meritorio●s of perfect obedience , as to the ends , in order to which it was yeilded , being the fulfilling of the law , and of all the types , shadows and sacrifices that went before him , and that , whereby he left us an example that should follow his steps , &c. yet if the blood of that immaculate lamb , and the suffering and the sacrifice of himselfe by which he purges away sin , and that righteousnesse , and those perfect good works , and holy spirituall operations of his be not witnessed neerer to us in time , and place then . years since at ierusalem ( viz. ) within us now as ioh. . . it avails us not to our salvation . and howbeit this true transposition of purifying before pardoning , of mens forgoing sin by christs power in them before gods forgiving and forgetting it , runs in a clear crosse line to your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the cart before the horse , who set iustification from the guilt , before sanctification from the filth of sin , expecting and accounting among your selves ( without the lord , while he is silent , and before the bill of your accounts be brought in by him ) ye are iust , and pure , and holy , and good in the sight of god , when it s nothing lesse upon the account of somewhat done by another , that never knew the workers of iniquity , so well as to entitle them to an entrance into gods bosome in their iniquities , as if all scores were quitted between god and you , and your sins blotted out yeares at least , before they were by you done , and by his witnesse in you , as with a pen of iron , and point of a diamond written down by christ , and the works of his spirit within , yet i absolutely assert that ye can be no further justified then in such measure as ye are sanctified before god , nor yet any sooner in order of either time or nature as you speak . i am not ignorant of your ordinary school distinctions & positions namely that bona opera non praecedunt justificandum sed sequuntur justificatum & dant non us ad regnum , but only aptitudinem regnand● , &c. that good works go not before in the person that is to be iustified , but follow only in persons already justified , and give no right to the kingdom , but only a fitness for entrance into it , to such as have actuall right before ever they do any good by the power of christ , and t.d. by implicit faith treads in the same common beat'n track , telling us p. . that surely the leading of the spirit or sanctification is a fruit and effect , and not a meritorious cause of not being obliged to the penalty of the law : yet all this is but tittle ●attle of those whom christ and righteousnesse serves to talk and make a trade on : tell not me t.d. of thomas , of io. duns the scot , and other scepticks , schoolmen and casuists , that make religion a matter of dispute more then practice , for i say ( and yet no more then what the scripture proves to any , but such as take more care by their innumerable distinctions , senses , and meanings upon it , to defend themselves in their sins , then to live the life of it , that the good works , that are the gift of christ and the fruits of the spirit of christ in us , and that righteousnesse which is of his working in us , who worketh in us , both to will and do what are we do , that is of worth before god , are those by which our salvation is wrought out , phil. . and are not the fruit and effect of , but go before iustification from guilt , and acquiting from the penalty and condemning power of the law , which is the fruit and effect of the other , and the same that gives the aptitude and meetness for the kingdom , the self same righteousness of christ within us , wrought and imparted to us , gives to us the ius or right to inherit it , and not another without us , onely imputed ; for as is commonly said , quae supra nos , and so may it be truly said in this matter , quae extra nos nihil ad nos , &c. what good works and rigteousness of christ are done by him without us , what ever they are intentionally , and conditionally , yet are actually and absolutely nothing to us , but as we come to see and feel the same , by that same power that wrought in him working mightily in us ; performed within our selves . neither are the good works and righteousness of christ , which are the fruits of his spirits leading us thereto subsequent as effects of his not being under the lawes curse in a person before justified ( as t.d. and the scholastick doctors of whom he learns it , indoctrinates ) but are praecedent as causes of it in persons in order to their peace with god , and iustification in both gods sight , and in mens , and in their own , for as 't is said isa. . , , , , . of the inhaerent righteousness , that resides and remains in the hearts of saints , which is the fruit and effect of the spirit of god , making them of a wilderness a fruitful field , by the pourings out of the spirit upon them from on high ; so it is in truth that the work of that righteousness is the peace , and the effect or fruit of that righteousnes is quietness and assurance for ever : yea , that people who of a barren forrest become a fruitful field to the lord , bring forth fruits of righteousness by christ in them to the praise of god , are they onely that , when the nail of gods wrath , indignation and torment comes down by right on the fruitless forrest , have ( even eaten us , or thereupon ) a due right and title to the dwelling in the peaceable habitation and sure dwelling , and quiet resting-places of the fathers love and abrahams bosom● , as well as a fitness for it ; which fitness and meetness is first , and ever goes before the actual , a●solute and immediate right there to come ; for whatever remote and conditional right all men have to the iustification , life and peace of god in christ , mediante fide , iustitia , pie●ate , sanctitare , &c. on terms of that precedent faith , righteousness , godliness and holiness wrought in them by christ , which makes them mee● for it ; yet a positive and immediate right thereto , can no man have , till he be thus made mee● to enter it , any more then he , that was unmeet for the marriage supper , for want of his wedding garment , who had as true a rem●●● right as any that were there conditionally he had fitted ( i.e. ) clothed himself accordingly , had in his old suit , the rotten rags of his own righteousness , and not christs , a real and immediate right , to intrude himself into so holy a presence , who was , with shame , thrust forth forth for his labour . and whereas our unjust iusticiaries strike hard against us , as they think , with that true story rom. . of iacob and esau's being the one loved , th● other 〈…〉 yet , being 〈◊〉 , ●me neither good nor evil . rep. . i say , and so would they too , if they could once sea that 〈◊〉 one thing to be denominated aforehand by god , who fore-seeing how it will be , oft calls those things that yet are not , as if they were , loved and ●ated respectively before or good or evil be actually done , or the doors born , with reference to the good and evil he fore-saw would be done in time , and another to be abs●lutely and actually l●ved and hated , not onely without any reference or respect to good and evil fore-seen , that it would be done , but also before the subject ; and doers thereof are , in rerum natura , as yet in so much as any actual being . . that those two persons were types of the two seeds , that ( and not persons , but so as they are the children of one or t'other ) are the only absolute unchangeable everlasting subjects of gods peremptory in alterable and eternal decrees of election and reprobation ( viz. ) the seed of the woman , and that of the serpent , which the seed of the righteous , who are ever blessed , and the seed of evil-doers , who are never to be renowned , are respectively born of , and adhaering to . . that though they will needs mis-understand it as spoken of those pers●ns only , yet it is not poken of two persons only , but it is spoken of the nations that strove in the womb of rebecca , and the two manner of people that were to go forth of her bowels ( viz. ) israel and edom , which two nations also , but that what is most right , is mostly a riddle to them , they might read ( as born after the flesh ) were types , yet of a more mystical and spiritual israel and edom * , then they are yet well acquainted with , as neer of kin to esau , that is edom , as they are in g●ds account , both in name and nature . . that gods loving one and hating t'other of these , was ( as is most evident in the letter , mal. . , . ) not without , but with respect to evil , and not evil fore-seen to be done in time , for on the account of edoms mountains being the border of wickedn●ss ( as iacobs were not ) they became the objects of gods hatred , and a people against wh●m the lord hath indignation for ever . . that there was no such thing as iacob have i loved , esau have i hated , said of those two single pe●sons , of which our intricate expositors interpret that text , before those two children and single pair of twins came out of rebeccaes wombe , neither doth that text rom. . , , . say so in : terminis as our academical arithmeticians usually wrong repeat it , for the text , sayes , that before they had done either good or evil , or were bo●n either , it was said to her , the elder shall serve the younger , and that 's true enough , that he did both in the single type and the foresaid double anti-type , and it s witnest in the saints , whom the world knows not , to be truth at this day , that the elder doth serve the younger , which was an underling to the elder a great while : but of the other it s said thus , not ( as it was said unto her ) but ( as it is written ) jacob have i loved , esau have i hated : and where , and when was this written ? before the two-single persons of iacob and esau were born , or had done either good or evil ? i trow not ; but if our benighted seers look again , they 'l see it was written by malachi the last prophet , who●e prophecy was not before , but after they were born , and had done all the good or evil they ever did in the body ; yea , so long after all this was written , that the mens bodies both were ds of years before that , both dead and rotten . and to inculcate this a little further , let thus much t●e considered , that howbeit t. d. denyes iustific●●ion and life to be given ( ●s myself do somewhat more then himself , who falsly accuses me of it ) upon my obedience or good works , or righteousness of ours onely and properly so called , for as much as all ours as well as our selves , as in the fall without christ and his in us , are as an unclean thing , and ●ung and liss , and as filthy rags before the lord , and as he speaks ( improperly ) imperfectly good , which is no other then evil ( as i said above ) or imperfect , or to use his own phrase still imperfect obedience , which is but disobedience ; nevertheless the good works , righteousness and ●bedience of christ in us , as well as his without us , being , when but in part or in the least degree , perfect , and the fulfilling of the law ( tuliter , qualiter ) and not defective or transgressive of the law , for as we have of our selves no other , so he hath none such , nor are any of his his operations or obediences imperfect , or a violation or breaking of the law , and either a violating or fulfilling , breaking or keeping of it every deed is , that is done at all , even these are such by which iustification may , doth , and must come , if at all , and upon which the gospel gives life . and if any doubts it , as t. d. himself does , or rather denyes the truth of it , i need go no further for an argument , ad hominem , then to t.d. himself , who p. . sayes the gospel gives life upon imperfect ob●dience , from whose own imperfect speech in that particular i may argue , and perfectly conclude the truth asserted of the worth , weight and vnloar of christs obedience in his saints , every part of which is perfect , a minori a● ma●us , if i may be candidly construed in my cauting back to him in his own language of imperfect obedience . thus , arg. if the gospel gives life upon imperfect obedience , as evrs onely is , if any can properly be so called , then upon perfect obedience , such as at christs within us and without us is , much more . but , secundum re , t. d. the gospel gives life upon imperfect obedience ; therefore upon christs good works , holy operations , righteousness and obedience in us , which is perfect and not imperfect , much more . and if t. d. shall strive by the serpentine sublety , to save his head this way , by saying , he intends by that term of imperfect obedience , not any obedience or righteousness of our own , wrought by us without christ , but that wihch is ( as he sayes pauls was , his own , that he received from christ , which own of his paul counted less and dung ) our own , received from and wrought in us by christ ; yet let him remember at least , . that then he calls the gift of righteousness , by faith received from god and christ , from whom comes every good and perfect gift ( but not any insufficient , defective or imperfect , that i or any ever read of ) imperfect . and whereas he may yet twine & say , that he intends not in such a sence as i take the word imperfect in for evil , defect , insufficiency to its end or so , but for 〈◊〉 onely , or a less measure or degree of that fulness , every part of which is also in a sense perfect ; let him . consider what i said above viz. of no good , heavenly , spiritual thing , or gift that comes down from above from christ and the father of lights , that which is but in part , is any where no not in , cor. . or truly can be , called imperfect ; for the earnest and first fruits of the spirit and grace is spirit and grace , and good , as the whole is , that its a part of , and not imperfect , but perfect as the other is perfect , and so all that 's born of god is truly holy as god is holy , and perfect as the heavenly father is perfect , and sins not as he sins not , nor can , being of the incorruptible non-sinning seed , for all that sins is of the devil , and thereby are manifest the children of god , and of the devil ; that , that is of god overcometh the world , and that which overcometh the world is not overcome by the world , but keepeth himself that the evil one toucheth him not , and sinneth not , as he doth , and doth no other that is begotten to it by the devil , and is of the d●vi● , and he that sinneth not doth righteousness , and he that doth righteousness is righteous as god is righteous , pure as he is pu●e , and so in some measure perfect , though not in the same measure perfect , as his heavenly father is perfect , that is bearing his perfect image in his mea●ure , and not part of gods , and part of the devils , as an infant in nature , bears the perf●ct image of a man in stature , and not centaure-like , part of a mans image , and part of a beasts : and not having a mixture of sin with his grace , as thou ( whether more foo●ish●y or falsly it matters not , sith it s both in a great degree ) supposedst ( as thou saist p. ) i meant , when in answer to thy question , ( viz. ) whether th●r● be any true believers who are not perfect ? at the dispute i replyed , there are degrees among believers , little children , young men , fathers ; and these things may serve , as my answer to that piece of folly and falshood of thine , now i am up on 't , for whatever thou t. d. supposest i mean , i suppose , and mean no such matter , when i say perfect ; for every true believer and sanctified one by christ , though but in part , is as truly , though not ●o totally perfect and perfected as he shall be by him who is said to perfect for ever all such as are , so far as they are , for ever sanctified by him , nor yet ( but that thy senses are sodden so as to take , or rather rake or scrape things for granted to thee before they are so given ) did or do i grant ( as thou there tatlest ) s●me persons to be justified , who never did fulfil the law personally ; for though i told thee indeed , as thou truly tel'st it again to the world , there are but two estates , iustification and condemdation ; and now i tell thee over again , that there is no medium between these , for every one stands either iustified or condemned , guil●y or not guilty before god , as his law , which is the light is broken or fulfil'd by him , and he that stands by the light in his own conscience , by which god judges him , in any particular cleared or iustified , stands before god so far uncondemned , how ever judged by man ; therefore wherein david was clear in himself , though clouded with mens false accusations of him , he could and did with boldness appeal to god , to iudge and reward him in that case still , according to the integrity of his heart , and innocency of his hands in gods sight ; and so abimelech and others , see psal. . . . . . . . . gen. . . kings . . but he that by the same light , which is no lye in the conscience of ether , godly or wicked ( as t.d. little less then perswades men it often is in both , p . ) stands condemned within himself , and so consequently before god , whose witness that in him is ( let him ▪ flatter himself as he will , & let t.d. and all men sing lullaby and prophecy as smooth things to him as they can ) so far as in any case or cases , he rebels against the light , is so far inexcusably , till he repents and returns to it , in such wise condemned by it in the sight of god , whereupon even david himself where his heart smote him , for iniquity regarded in it ( and he that does it , let him dote the contrary if he dare , does i say assuredly , so far regard it ) could stand in no more boldness and guiltlesness in his sight , then adam could after he had fed on the forbidden fruit , for which he fled gods face ; and where he fell short of that uprightness , he sometime stood iustified in and by before , and fail'd so fowly as that flawes , fainirgs and falshood were found in him ( as if ever there were in all his dayes it was in that unjust matter of v●iah and his wife , in which yet even while he was guilty thereby , t. d. most impudently affirms he stood with god not in a condemned , but in a justified estate ) there , let t. d. lye as he lifts , yet david declares when he had done that wickedness in his sight , god did not onely speak in wrath and judge him , but was worthy to be ( though himself was justly condemned by it ) to be justified and cleared in so doing , psal. . . i ay , though i said there were but two states , in one of which every man is , as he does good , which since the fall he cannot do but by the power of christ , or evil at the suggestion of the d●vil , viz. iustification , or condemnation : yet i deny any person to be justified in whom the law [ which can't be by the weakness of the flesh ] is not by the power and spirit of christ fulfilled , neither do i imagine ( as thou imaginest i did ) a mixture of sin with believers grace ; for though they , that drink of the whores cup of abomination and fornication , which is full of such kind of trashy doctrines and mixtures , and medleys , which they ministes and measure out to one another , supposing i see with such eyes as themselves , suppose such a mix●ure , and suppose i suppose it too , yet i neither suppose , nor own such mingled messes of doctrine , but know , that no more then iron is truly mixed , or can cleave into one compositum with mi●y clay , and no more then god and idols , light and darkness , christ and belial can be mingled into agreement , no more mixture is there of the sinners sin , which is of the devil , with the saint's grace , which is of god ; and so whereas thou thoughtest thou hadst caught me ( as thou there sayest ) in a manifest contradiction , thou hast but according to thy common custom in that kind , caught thy self ; instead of winding my self out of which contradiction ( of thy meer coining ) though thou sayest i replyed not , but sa●e down on the top of a seat , like a man astonisht and under the hereticks iudgement ( i e. ) self-condemned ; yet thou feest i have here so well wound my self out of it , as to manifest it to all men that i were never in it , and to leave thee in the lurch under the hereticks iudgement of self-condemnation , for thy folly and fictions about it , which are hereby also manifest to all ; for verily , if i were at all astonished at any of the three dayes disputes , thou miserably mistook'st the manner of it , it being not at all , as the iewes were at the wisdom of christs , but as oft as it was , at the stupidity of thy understanding and answers . thirdly and lastly , from thy foregoing grant to us , which is more then we say , and would have thee say , that the gospel gives life upon imperfect obedience , let it be well remembred by thee , sith it s agreed on all hands , that all the obedience that christ yielded to the law in that person called christ without us , was perfect , and in no wise imperfect , that then that imperfect obedience ( as thou call'st it ) which the gospel gives life upon ( as thou sayest ) can be no other then that which is inherent in us , in ourpersons onely and not his , in whom all that is inherent thou darest not on pain of blaspemy deny but that it was perfect ; and if so , then see how with thy wining to and fro , and running up and down , round about , thou hast at last brought thy hogs ( as they say ) to a fair m●rk●● : even till thou hast drawn the dirt of thy fal'd charge of popery , as thou callest that doctrine of life upon our imperfect works , which thou threw'st at me , who never held it by an● , but christs perfect obedience , upon thy own indirectly-driving-self , so that if any man enquire who is it that holds that popery of life & iustification upon our imperfect obedience , t. d. tells it that himself is the man , in whose book p. . it is written as legibly to all , as if it were branded upon his b●ow , as his own doctrine , that the gospel gives life upon imperfect obedience ● and if he will take his term of imperfect , and translate it better by the term of perfect obedience wrought by christ in his saints , i 'le give him his word again with all my heart ; and can afford it , for if so , he gives me no less then the question it self , which is affirmed by us , and not denied ( if so ) by himself concerning lifes coming upon christs righteousness , received from him and wrought by him in us . so then the snare is broken and i am escaped , which yet is whole enough to hold t. d. fast enough , who set it , who while i for whom 't was set am set at liberty by himself , cannot with all his struggling strain his own neck out of the string , whereinto he hath slipt it unawares . sic ves non vohis fertis aratra b●ves . further , yet much more is to be said in proof of it , that our being first led by the spirit of christ into the righteousness of his working in us , is antecedent to our iustification , as a meritorious cause of it , though considering how slenderly t. d. slides away from what was at the dispute urged to that purpose , even as he sets it down in his own relation of it , p. , . to his own best advantage , there were no great need of more , if all wereas wise as some are silly , to see the strength of what was urged ; but some are silly , and some are willing , rather then to own troublesome truths , to wink against it , and to seem more silly then they are ; whereupon when i have examined the inefficacy of t. ds. returns to it , and turned them home in their native nakedness , to the shame of him who sent them out , i may not unlikely urge somewhat more . . to this argument from gal. . . they who are led of the spirit , are not under the law ; therefore being led of the spirit , is a meritorious cause of not being under the law , and so consequently of iustification or non-condemnation by it . thou t.d. rep'yest , that i am very silly myself , or take my hearers to be so , thinking this to be a proof of my former consequence , or that there is any consequence in this argument ; whereas first this argument is urged not so much in proof of my former consequence , as entail'd on that , but as entire and absolute within it self : for as to the proof of the former consequence , ( viz. ) contrariorum contraria est ratio ; therefore as evil deserve condemnation , so good works non-condemnation ; in proof of which thou sillily sayeth , i should , have pro●● that there 's par. ratio , for had i prosecuted that , i should have proved that there 's contraria barro , for the merit of the ones , and of the other , as i have told thee above , i say as to that former consequence it had been sufficiently proved before by telling you ( but that in such a crowd of conference as ye were in among your selves , it could not be heeded ) ; that as condemnation and non-condemnation , of iustification were contraries , so good works which i said were not those of our own working without christ ( for i oft said , not by works of righteousness we have wrong h●● but what christs works in and by us , none of which are imperfect but all truly good ) and evil works are truly contraries , and so of contrary desert , the one being all as truly good , as the other truly evils and as for thy saying , i am either silly , or take my h●●●ers s●to● , in that i think there 's any consequence in , the argument from gal. ● . . i say i did not take my heedless , hearers so silly thus , but i now take some of them an ●thy self for one , to be much more silly then i did at the dispute , not onely by reason of sundry other remarkably silly passages , that are in thy printed relation thereof , but also in that thou thinkest there is no consequence in that argument ; for verily , wert thou but as solid as thou art silly in this matter , or couldst thou but look an inch or two beyond that th verse , whereon the argument is grounded , thou might'st see of thy self that which is of force sufficient to prove the se●●et for shewing in the verses between the works of the flesh , which the spirit leads out of , and the fruits and works of the spirit , which the spirit leads such into as follow it , the apostle v. adils this ( viz. ) against such there is no law : ( i. e. ) such works of the spirit , as love , ioy , peace , goodness , meekness , temperance , and such persons as are by the spirit led out of the work of the flesh , adultery , uncleanness , laferviousness , hatred , wrath , envyings , drunkenness , revellings , &c. and into the other : whence to the proving of the sequel of that argument , in which thou sillity sayest there 's no , no consequence , i argue . if such as are led by the spirit out of evill into good works , are thereupon deservedly not under the law , then their being led by the spirit , who are led by it from under it , is the deserving or meritorius cause of their nor being under the law , and so of iustification . but verum prius ergo & posterius . the minor which ( unless thou wilt deny thy principles ) its like thou wilt deny , is thus proved ; those against whom deservedly there is no law , are thereupon deservedly from under the condemning power of it ; for such is the r●gour of the law , that who ere deserves the condemnation of it , till they come not to deserve it , first or last , shall assuredly feel it . but there is no law deservedly against such as 〈◊〉 not after the flesh into evil , but after the spirit into good works ; therefore according to that also rom. . deservedly no condemnation . for indeed those and no other ( what ere ye deem to the contrary , being deluded by the devil , to the deceiving of your own souls ) are truly in christ iesus , then those that are led by the spirit , which who is led by , is led out of evil , for it leads into nothing but good , those onely are in the spirit , and all the rest in the 〈◊〉 , which follow the flesh in its lustings against the spirit , and so under the law and c●●e , thought they name the name of christ , and after him call themselves christians , while they are not departed from iniquity , much more while they plead for its continuance under the name of their infi●mi●ies of necessity , while they abide in the body : yea , those and none else are christs , though millions more may conceit themselves his , so as to be interessed into the blessings of peace , life and iustification by him and abrahams seed , and heirs according to the promise , and sons of god , that are led by the spirit of god into good works out of evil , to live and walk in the spirit , out of the fl●sh and the f●uits thereof , out of vain glory , envy , hypocrisie , and all deceit : and if any think he is christs , or any other men are christs , so far as to stand justified before god in him , before he be sanctified , or while he is guilty of such gross evils , as david was defil'd with , while he was wallowing in the mire of that matter of vriah , as t. d. guesses david and all saints are ( by which name he paints them out as well while they are in such a nasty pickle , as when they are wash ) of impure the righteousness of christ without him to himself , or count upon it that god impures it so as to compute him or any righteous , holy , good , &c. upon that mere account of his own so counting en't and confident believing it so to be before he find and feel that by his faith in christs light ( which such fanciers as i.o. t. d. and most divines and their disciples are far from faith in , while they fight against it as fiction ) it be revealed and ●rought in himself , and imported to him , to making of him righteous as christ is , and to the purifying of him ( in fiert● ) till he come ( in facto esse ) to be pure as christ is pure , iohn . to walk as he walked , and as he is , in whom is no sin , and in whose mouth was found no guile , even so to be in this world , and so are his sants that stand with him on mount sion redeemed from the earth , without fault before the throne , rev. . . and layes claim to the blessedness in truth , psal. . , . psal. . , , , i say if any man thus believe trust and hope as aforesaid , his hope is but vain , and not that of theirs , iohn . , , , . nor the sure and stedfast anchor of them , heb. . , , . that enters into that within the vail , whether the fore-runner is entred , making the way for such onely as follow him in the daily cross to the carnal mind ; yea , his belief is but blind , his faith meer fancy ; he feeds but upon ash●s , a deceived heart hath turned him aside ; his trust is in lying words , he leans upon nought but lyes , a meer lye is in his right hand ; christ is not his , nor his righteousness his as yet , neither is he christs , while he lives in his lusts and his lusts in him , while alive to the world and the world to him ; for as it is in the verse next after that i last argued from , gal. . , . they that are christs , have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts thereof , upon that cross of the lord jesus , then which paul glorified in nothing more , as true saints now do , while the world is ashamed thereof , that is , the light by which christ condemns all sin in their flesh , that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in them , as truly as in himself , and they walk no more after the flesh , but the spirit ; by which also paul was crucified to the world , and the world also unto him . and now whereas t.d. and those divines from whom he must come to be divided , before ever he know his part in the undivided christ , do ( uno ore ) confesse so far unto this truth as to tell it further , then they are aware , against their wills , while they tell us that the good works and fruits of the spirit , and christ righteousness within the saints , and the obedience , which by him they are enabled to perform , are not onely that which makes men meet to enter , but are also all the righteous mens evidence for heaven both in faro ecclesia , & conscientie , for i know no man among them , that sayes any other then thus , that no men can know one another , nor any men themselves , to be christs and heirs of heaven , and to have right to enter there , and that the faith in christ which they professe , whereby they say they stand , entitled to the righteousnesse of christ without them , is true , living , saving , justifying faith , and not fancy , dead unprofitable , and good for nothing , ' but as it is accompanyed with the other fruits of the spirit and good works , which serve ( ●ay they ) to justifie every one that is justified ( without them ( say they ) in the sight of god ) in his own sight , and conscience , and in the sight of men : i shall take all our doctors at their words , so far as they do yield , as pharaoh did , to is●ael by a little and little at once , in order to the winding of them in at last , whether they will or no , to yield us the whole question in every inch of it , wherein they stick ( for we shall not ere we have done , leave them , so much as a hoof thereof behind , ) and while it is in and upon me , say something more to these two grants of good works , giving st . meetn●sse for entrance evidence of our t●se to the in● heritance , and the truth of that faith , which though it never be alone ( say they ) yet along gives ( on our part ) true t●le to it : as then to the st , i mu●e what great difference there is [ but that they who where they should not , make two into one ( as t. d. does pauls own righteousnesse and that of christ in him , ) love as much , when they need not , to make one into two ] between the matter of merit , and the matter of meetness , that our divines can digest it exceeding well , to have it said the fruits of the spirit , and christs good works and righteousnesse within his saints onely makes them meet to inherit , but can't digest it at any hand , to have it said that these of christ and his spirit in them do meri● the inheritance or make worthy of it : doth not the ●ame that makes meet and fit for , merit or make worthy of it , and enright to it in some ●ort , and in scripture sense at least ? the whole course of which tells you not onely ( as you tell one another often , but that you often untell it again , when you tell that of necessity , men must sin while they live ) ●hat no sinners nor unri●hteous ones of any sort have in any wise any right to inheritance in the kingdome , or are either meet or worthy to be any where but without the holy city together , as fearfull , unbeleiving , dogs , and abominable in the lake of fire , but tells you also verbatim in many places , of all their and onely their right and worthynesse to enter , who by christs power do the sam● will of god he did , and have and work the same righteousnesse that he did in himselfe , within themselves , thess. . they that suf●er'd for the kingdome were worthy of it , . math. . not onely they that came 〈◊〉 when bidden to the the marriage were unworthy , but such also as took them●elves to be entitled upon bare bidding , and so ( as you do ) ran in all the hast , and thrust themselves in , as those that had the onely right , and who but they the worthy guests , that thought there was no need , ( i speake after the manner of men ) of the ●l●ves and ribbons , i mean the wedding robes of christ righteousnesse to cloth their own persons , as if what he only wore 〈…〉 theirs too , so far as to enright them ●hith●r , were ( for all their more bast then good speed ) thrust out at last , as u●worthy to be there , where had they been ●s well sui●ed , as they were willing to have the good 〈◊〉 might there upon , deservedly enough , since the invitation was free , and though a gift yet what more free the gift ? have stayd there among the rest as worthy : and the few names in sardis that had not defiled their garment had right by promise , and so ex debito ( if promise ought to be kept , when made ) though gratis too , because the promise was freely made to walk with christ in white , for they were worthy , rev. . . i say worthy ex bene placito , for as much as nothing , but the free good will and pleasure of god , made him oblige himselfe to give a right to such ; and yet ( to confound that nice and needlesse distinction of criticall scholasticks , which hath confounded most divines in christendom into darknesse ) ex condigno , also , for as much as by christs power and gift to will and do they both will and do what is required , as the termes and condition , on which the thing is promised ; which consistency that i make between ex condigno & ex beneplacite , ex debito & ex dono , ex operibus & ex gratia , which t. d. and most divines deeme to be 〈◊〉 or inconsistent together in the matter of mans iustification , being a 〈◊〉 , that few of them can get over , a meer gnat , at which they that in other things can swallow camells , can't but strain , i am made free a little more here to uney. t. d. thinks he hath half knockt the qua. for ever down into their dumps with his deep drawn argument from rom. . . t.d. if by grace then it is no more of works , otherwise grace is no more grace ; but if it be of works , then it is no more of grace , otherwise work is no more work : whence ( quoth he p. . ) if justification be of works as you assert , then grace is excluded from having any hand in our justification , which is contra●y to the scripture , which sayes we are justified by grace . our justification cannot be a debt and a free gift . i mean not both in respect of us . and this he calls his irrefragabascripture urged by him , that the hearers might be covninc't of the damnablenesse of our doctrine , who dare to talk of good works and perfecting holynesse bere , as ever we mean to see the face of god hereafter , which he and th● . rumsey el●ewhere call a doctrine of devils , and might ●●●th and detest us , as we deserve , and indeed finding his work fail in its force the day before , before the fire and the day , that declared of what sort it was , he prepared this against the d dayes dispute as his corner-stone , setting it in the front of his second fight against us ▪ and the truth , and to this ( quoth he ) nothing was replyed . rep. . a good cause why ( say i ) for there was no room for reply , but like as pilate , when he had askt christ this question what is truth ? as soon as he had so said , rose up and went his way , not staying to take his answer , so i well remember t.d. crouded in the next argument , which i have answered already above concerning the works the iews went about to establish ( which argument is so neer a kin to this , that one answer may very well for both , in both places paul by works , and own righteousnesse meaning no other then what are wrought without christ by us , and not any that are wrought by christ in us , ) i say t. d. crouded the one so hard on the back of the other , and past so soon from one to the other , that without interrupting of him , which he would ●●ve complained on as much on other hand , there could be no interposing of an answer , and so pilate-like , not expecting it , he went his way to another matter , without it . . yet now as to his argument itself somewhat may be replyed , and st if considered as in conjunction with its fellow that followes it so close at the heeles p. . from rom. . . and beares such a broad shew of backing it , it is not so big , nor amounting to such a bulky bulwark , but that one may easily put them both in a bag , if no more be said but this , that in both scriptures as also phil. . ( where as inconsistent he opposes his own , while a pharisee to that of christ within him when converted and a saint , and tit. . where he opposes the works ▪ of righteousnesse we have wrought to our being renewed by the holy spirit , and makes grace and renewing by the spirit all one , as well he might , for if we be not renewed by the spirit and saved from the sin , then i say grace is no more grace for what use is it of to us , if we be left in , and unpurged from the sin , which christ came to save his people from st , & so from the wrath of to come , which will come unavoidably on all that are disobedient , and unrighteous ) paul opposes the gift of grace gods righteousnesse to mans meer own works , which are not good though so thought by himselfe , and mans own literall righteousnesse of the law wrought in mans will and imagination onely , out of christ the light and faith in him and the leadings and movings of his spirit , and does not oppose grace to the righteousnesse of christ in his saints , or sanctification and holinesse , that is of god , by faith in the light , revealed in and received by every one that beleeves as inconsistent : for those are not onely concomitant but consistent and concurrent together to justification , as grace and our works onely are ; not for these two do tollere se invicem , i confesse , so that if justification and life be of grace , it can't be of our work● , et retro , if of our works , not of grace , but grace and gods righteousesse , grace and those good works wrought in us by christ , and for the doing of which we receive the grace , or gift of ability from christ , these are indeed one and the same , and so homogeneous or of one kind , that they may be synonomous also , and bear both to be called mutually by the same name of either grace , or good works , and so are they throwout the scripture , as one thing promiseuously denominated , sometimes by the term of grace , somtimes the gift of god in christ , the gift of righteousnesse , holinesse , &c. for all this is grace and free gift , and yet its inhaerent in us too , as the same that was in christ , and being christs as meritorious , ma●ing not onely meet but worthy also , in such measure as it s received in , as it was in a higher measure in himselfe , whether it be a gift to do , or a gift to beleeve , or a gift to suffer , as thess. . . compared with phil. . . to you given not onely to beleive , but also to suffer for his sake and they to whom this gr●●e was given were by god counted worthy of the kingdome , for which they suffer'd ; and so paul , who laboured abundantly in preaching the gospell , sayes this work was the grace which was given him by christ in him , by which grace also he was , what ere he was , that was worth any thing , having nothing but what he had received , that made him differ from another ; by which grace or gift all boasting and glorying in selfe was continually excluded , and the glory of all to be given still to god , and not flesh , man , and selfe : so that while iudas could blame none but himselfe for being damned ; so paul and the rest , though they wrought out their own salvation , yet could blesse none but god , who wrought in them of his good pleasure 〈◊〉 to work , will , and d● , for their being saved by his grace , cor. . . cor. . . eph. . . . . phil. . . . so that all along the gift of both faith and good works are both called grace ; yea , grace is no grace yet , to salvation from sin , while men remain in their sins , and unsaved by it , and while the grace or gift of gods righteousnesse , remaines onely in christ without them , save onely that they are in a possibility to be saved , and while they yet witnesse not him , and it by him within themselves to the destroying of the works and image of the devill , which when they do , then , and not before ( let them pra●e of ●●ace as they will ) they know the grace of god in christ iesus , and then all 's grace , and by grace and not of works or themselves , or any righteousnesse of their own that they can thank for it , whatever they work in the light and leadings of it , in preaching , praying , service , worship , and what ere they have , are , enjoy , act , beleive , endure , or suffer for his name . and so grace and works , grace and the righteousnesse of christ within us ( when mans own , which ye yet are onely in , and establishing your selves by , who hate the light and are out of it , is denyed as rags , as it is by us ) do not destruere , but ponere se invicem , so well stand together in the matter of our justification , that indeed neither of them can stand in it , without the other . neither is grace at all excluded , as t. d. injudiciously judges , from any hand in iustification by our asserting it to be of works of this nature , and establishing this inhaerent righteousnesse of christ in us thereunto , but by this alone is grace perfectly ectablished : neither are these in opposition each to other ( as t. d. sayes they are ) as immediate contraryes , as mens evill works and these good works of christ in man were by me affirmed to be , but rather individually the same : and whereas t.d. saith our justification cannot be a debt and a free gift both , in respect of us ; to what was said above , which might serve to answer this , i adde my denyall of that position of his with my grounds thereof ; for howbeit in respect of the same time it cannot be a debt and a free gift too ; yet in respect of the same pers●ns with reference to d●fferent times and seasons it may ; for as it was nothing but meer mercy to lost man , and free grace , gift , and goodnesse to man on gods part and not any debt or desert from god , on ma●s part , that st . engag'd or mov'd god to give his son , and to make promises in the gospell to give his free gift of life eternall , and to make christ the author of it , to all them that obey him , and the meer grace of christ to us , to come into the world a light , and give himselfe a ransom for all and to promise to give life to all that come unto him , and to god by him , that they might have life and salvation to the utmost ; yet seeing ( as i may say so ) god and christ have by free grace , that moved them to make it , thus put themselves freely into mans debt , on terms of their obedience , they are ( man performing the conditions on his part ) since then in justice bound to perform it : and so to the same subject mankind , from whom god at st . was altogether free , and to whom he was rich in mercy , and infinitely free in giving christ , and making promises he is since on account of his truth engaged , if man be not wa●nting to him selfe , to make it good , and as it is in the like ca●es , among men , that promise which pitty , meer mercy moves to make , piety and equity require its making good , so 't is here , and it s no such newes ▪ but to such as are novices in the faith , to understand that which to the same persons was grace and free gift at st . becomming a matter of desert , and due debt at last : so that though glory be to the grace and mercy of god , which onely moved him to say , when the wicked turnes from his wickednesse , and does what is lawfull and right he shall not dye , his iniquity shall not at all be mentioned to him , yet the wicked turning , gods wayes are not so equall as he pleads they are , ezek. . against man whose wayes and thoughts are all crooked and unequall , if he do not now justify , and forgive the reforming evill doer : and having in his free favour said it that he that confesseth , and forsaketh his siss shall find mercy , iohn saith iob. . . if we now confesse our sins , not , god is gracious and mercyfull , though that be originally the ground of all , and to be magnified over all his works , and is oft exprest to the wicked repenting , as the grand cause of gods remitting . isa. let him forsake his way and thoughts , and turn to the lord for he is gracious , but saith iohn god is fa●thfull and just to forgive us our sins , and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness : so having refuted t. d's . irrefragable argument , ( as he stiles it ) from that scripture rom. . which i confesse is irrefragable in truth , but that t. d. wrests it ( being one of those unlearned and unstable ones in the truth , that peter saith pet. . wrest pauls epistles and other scriptures to their own destruction ) i return to proceed in that , which i went away from by this profitable parenthesis ( viz. ) to shew how the scripture ascribes the inherita●ce as not onely meet for them that are meet for it , but their due de jure that do his commandements , r●v . . . blessed are they that do his commandements that they may have right to eat of the tree of life and to enter throw the gates into the citty , but without are dogs , &c. ( . ) without the citty , and without right to it , as well as without mee●nesse for it , who if they were other ( . ) doing the commands they should have both mee●nesse , worthynesse and right and ( jure hereditario by right of heirship according to the promises made in that behalf ) should both duly , and ( keeping the condition ) no otherwise then deservedly inherit it ; as he that having a promise of the inheritance of a citty in case he will adventure to storme , and overcome and win it , fighting and overcoming accordingly ( though the promise of it at st . on such termes was a gift ) may then claim it for his inheritance as of debt , and desert , which it is not onely fit and meet he should have , as on terms of promise on anothers part , & performance of the terms required on his own , who ever helpt him in it , he is worthy as the right heir , one that hath due title to it accordingly to enjoy and inherit : and indeed the very word inherit , which is so often-used both in the negative , where the wicked are excluded ; as no unrighteous one shall ever inherit and on the positive , and promissive hand , where the righteous are included , as he that overcometh shall inherit all things , doth ( if men were not praepossest with prejudice against the truth and with blind principles , which ( as its harder to knock an old peg out of its hole then to knock a new one in when that 's out ) there 's more ado to drive out of them , dispossesse them of , and draw them from , then would be to draw them to own the plain truth , if the darkness were once dispeld ) import no lesse then an entailing the title of the kingdome to the good works and fruits of the spirit in us which are the termes on which it is promised , on any name or thing abstract from these , which yet t. d. is so absurd , as his fellow a b c da●ians in the school of christ are , as to make in no wise a cause , but onely an effect of our justification and of our standing entitled to it on things without us , that are nothing to us , abstract from these : whereas if that be true ( as it is in their own schools ) that quo p●sito panitur , quo sublato t●llitur effectus , &c. that upon the being of which the effect ever is , upon the not being of which the effect can never b● , must needs be the cause of that effect , it s most uncontr●lably true that the good works and fruits of the spirit in us , are not the f●uits and effects , but the causes , of some kind or other , of our just●fication ; and as the cause of every sort , if it be but causa sine qua non ( as they speak ) the cause that gives no influence , but only is a meer hangby yet , necessarily too , as a cipher , is in order of nature evermore before the effect , so is our sanctification , so antecedent to our justification even in the sight of g●d , that contrary to our sch●●lmens figments , who say justification is st . of the two , so that god lookes on us as just , while unjust , before he makes us just , i say , till our sanctification is , our being counted holy in gods sight can never possibly be . ob. and though it s said he justifieth the ungodly . rep. i say , yea justification is ever of ungodly ones , yet never in , but from their ungodlinesse , as sanctification and salva●ion is of sinners , but not in , but ever from their iniquityes ; he clea●s the guilty , but by no meanes , no not christs blood , so exod. . . as to cleare the guilty while in their sins , or hold them guiltlesse as t. d. dreames he did david , while they are guilty of adultery and murder , and while they are taking his name in vain , crying lord , lord , but not doing what he sayes , naming his name , but not d●parting from eniquity ; he makes christ to such as believe in his light wisdom , righteousnesse , sanctification , and redemption , but ( what ere some count ) he in no wise counts him so to any , any further then he doth so make him ; he sees no sin in iacob nor tra●sgression in israel , but it is because there it s done away , and remitted , not by pardon , without purging , but so as not to be committed any more , or if it be there 's new guilt contracted , and the sin imputed , till again remitted on returning ; but this israel to whom he is so truly good are them that are of a clean heart psal. . he will speak peace unto his people and his saints , while they walk in wisdome , but let them not return any more to folly , for if they do they do , they must again hear more rough repro●f from him then ever , and find him speaking in wrath , and v●xing in his sore displeasure , there is a blessed man , to whom●he will not impute sin , whose iniquityes and transgressions are covered , but t is he in whose spirit there 's no guile , psal. . . so that i marvail what our priests mean by salvation , iustification , redemption and such like , when they say a saint or a sinner ( what should i call their mongrell seed ? ) may be in a state of salvation , while they are in the guilt and filth of their sins , for i know but two things christ saves his people from ( viz. ) from their sins and from the wrath , which is to come , and i know no salvation at all from the wrath , which is the effect ; till there be a salvation from the sin , which is the cause of it , for posita caus a p●nitur effectus as well as sublata tollitur , and i am sure none is there ( as yet ) from the sin , where men are not onely in it , and it in them , but singing loath to depart , and pleading for a necessary abode of b●th these ( themselves and sin ) together while themselves are abiding in the body . yet t.d. so thinks , that to stand in sin , which is in the reprobation , and yet to stand within the lists of gods love and election will stand so well both together , that david stood justified in gods sight in that which if men had seen him in , he would not have been justified in their sight , who love sin more , and hate it lesse then god does , and yet all this altogether . but t.d. thou hast heard of god onely by the hearing of the ear as yet by hearsay from thy self and s●lf blinding brethren , but when thine eye comes to see him , and he comes neer thee to judgment , wh●se comming , who in sin can abide ? and who in iniquity , can stand before him ? who is as refiners fire to the drosse and fullers sope to the fil●h , thou shalt , for all thy seeming saint-ship , abhor thy selfe before him , and repent thy s●lf that ever thou talkedst of mens being in a state of justification before him , while under the guilt of sin ( as purer saints then thy selfe have done , that have thought the same as thou dost ) in very dust and ashes ; and that walking in the fruits of the spirit and holinesse of truth , must go before the sight of gods face in peace , and that the sinner shall not see his face and live , thy selfe shalt see , whether e●er thou come to walk holily yea or nay . but alas to what purpose is it to tell our p●iests this , when they tell ( in effect ) the same one to another , yet believe not what they say themselves , but contradict it out of their own mouths as soon as t●e● have done , like l●●ards making good plain prints with their feet in the sandy ways they run in , yet dashing them all out , as the go with their long bushy tail●s ; they say no lesse then that sanctification goes before justification in the sight of god , though they see it not , while they say fai●h , which they confesse is a fruit of the spirit , the gift of god , a part of our sanctification is that , that , as an instrumentall cause of it , goes before ●ustification , as that by which we are , and without and before which we cannot be accounted ●ust in the sight of god ; yet by and by again they tell us that justification , which is by faith , and so not before but after it , goes before sanctification , whereof faith ( they say ) is a part , and that the leadings of the spirit , and its fruits , among which justifying faith is reckoned up as one . gal. a●ea f●uit and effect of our b●ing not under the lawes penalty that is of our justification from the guilt of sin , so t.d. p. . sometimes , to escape and slip away from the shame of this absurdi●● and contraction , they tell us , or at least some of them , that iustification of saints or sinners ( for i am to seek still what to call the creatures they call saints , for if i call them saints , it loaths me to call such sinners saints , as they term so , yea , if they be saints , which some so call , then guilty sinners are saints al , and if i call them that commit sin the servants of sin ( as christ did iohn . ) and not saints and children of god , they will be ready to loath me ) i say then , they tell us that iustification of sinning-saints , painted and saint-like sinners in the sight of god is without , and before faith , or any thing else , even before sin was , or men either , from all eternity , and from all sins ( pastnor present , i can't say here , because the sinning subjects of this iustification are not yet extant in the world ) but from all that ever is to come , and faith by which the iustification comes , is but an instrument , whereby the evidence of this long-since iustification in gods eye comes in to men , and manifests it to their eye , whereby the sinners themselves know it ; and as for other fruits of the spirit , which are all the fruits of faith too ( which i confess to be the first in being of all work ; truly good , so that without it 't is impossible to please god , and whatsoever is not of it and in it , but out of it , and out of the light , in which it is , if true , is but sin ) these are onely as evidences to us , and to others that the faith we have is justifying and true , &c. and not dead and fained , and fit for nothing . so say they , in gods sight we are justified , freely from of old without faith , or good works that follow and flow from it either ; this we know and are assured of , that faith is opp●sed to it self as a work in the business of iustification , and that faith is imputed to us as being in stead of a perfect personal righteousnese , or that 't is the meritorious cause of our iustification , i utterly deny ( quoth t. d. p. , . ) but faith without works is that by which we are formally justified , but the other , that is , good works , that by which we are declaratively justified ; in pauls sense , who rom. . . sayes , we are justified by faith onely , without the works of the law ; a sinner is absolved ( i wot he means in his own conscience , for i know not when t.d. reckons , or whether at all god holds an elected saint guilty , if not david while he was guilty of adultery and murder ) in iames's sense , iam. . . who sayes by works a man is justified , and not by faith onely ; a b●liever is approved ' ( quoth t.d. p. . out of diodat . whose words he useth ) which approbation of a believer in his faith ( as true ) is both in himself and before men , so as they usually say by good works a mans faith is evidenced to himself within and others without , to be a true living faith , and so consequently his iustification with god to be surely known , which was , but could not be seen or known to be before . rep. now therefore a word or two to the grant of our antagonists , that iustification is before ( in gods sight ) but it can't be known to be by us or others , nor evidenced to us , so that we can stand as justified ones , or approved in our own sight and other mens , till we be sanctified and have both faith , which is a fruit of the spirit , and other fruits of the spirit , which , if true , that faith works by , as love , a pure heart , victory over the world , temperance , peaceableness , gentleness , and such like . is it so friends , that no man can appear to himself to be approved and justified in gods sight , nor to himself or others be known that he is so , till he comes to believe , and do other good works of righteousness , which first declare the thing so to be ? i wonder then how ye dare talk and affirm that to be , before good works , which before good works ye confess cannot be known so to be ; will ye ever be in your wills , thoughts , inventions and traditions , intruding your selves into that ye have not seen , and confess cannot be seen to be , as you say it is , vainly puft up in your fleshly minds , and entring into , and venturing to reveal and vent out gods secrets , which ye say are secret and hidden to man , saying they are so and so , before the time you say they are first revealed to you in ? and telling men they are justified before god and loved , before they do any good , and bidding them believe this for true doctrine from you , that 't is so , till they come to do good works , and that that 's the onely evidence , whereby you can discern that thing so to be , which yet you say is so , before either by you or them it is discerned ? in his own secret thoughts ( say you ) and bosome councels the thing stands so , that we are justified , but it s not revealed to us to be so , neither can we know it to be so , that we are justified , but from the time of our bringing forth fruits of righteousness : do not secret things belong to god onely , and things that he reveals , when he reveals them and not before , to you and your children to talk of ? are ye not like natural bruit beasts in this , that you oft speak evil of that truth ye know not , and oft tell that for truth , which is not so , when ye know it not , and even confess it cannot be known to be , till evidenced by good works , and yet you will say 't is of a truth , before any of those good works by which onely the evidence of it comes to you , be brought forth in you ? 't is true , there be many things , in esse rea●● , before they be in esse cogn●scibili , real before they be visible ( though this iustification of yours before sanctification in gods sight , which ye yield is before sanctification , but sanctification before it in your own sight , and in the sight of all men is not one of those invisible realities , but ( if may so say ) an apparent , real , visible non entity rather , and fancy of your own brain ; but what things soever are in truth , to us they are not so , as that we in truth , and of a truth can say , so or so they are , till the time that we come to see them , and that come forth , which is the onely evidence , which we come to see them by ; and he that p●ates of that thing , as being so or so , which to him is not yet known so to be , is a buisie body , whose tongue runs afore his wit , his lips before the light that would lead him out of darkness , & his thoughts not a little out-run and out-reach his reason . tum demum , apud nos , res dicuntur fieri , cum incip unt patefieri , to us things are onely as they appear , so that whoever perks up and prates of what he knows not , and of matters that yet to him are not , which work ( which is that of the priests in many things ) he that shall count him that 's in it a wise man , shall by my consent be canonized a fool for his labour . iustification in gods sight of a sinner is , say the priests , before any sanctification is at all in him , but neither the sinner can know that there is any such matter as pardon of his sin , or that he stands just in gods sight appears not at all to himself , not yet is it evident to us , who tell him 't is so , neither can we know it any more then he , till sanctification appear in him , from which as that which goes before it , ever in our eyes , we come to the sight ●f it : yet if he will believe us ( who speak of a thing we know not , and talk we know not what ) and if he will take our words for it , that his iustification is before he be sanctified ( who have no other evidence of it our selves , or whereby to make it evident to him but this of his sanctification , which is evermore that which goes before the other , for ought we see or can discern , and if he will trust us implicitly at a venture he may ( but if he will not ( say i ) he may safely chu●e . and as to that speech of thine out of dioda●us , i dare say it was not a deo datus concerning good works justifying a man declaratively , and serving in iames's sence to approve a believe in the sight of men , for there 's not truth in 't , if meant so onely and exclusively of their use to iustifie formally , and absolve a sinner in the sight of god ( as it must be , if it serve that turn at all to which thou usest it ) yea , i contrarily affirm ( yet not denying , but that they do decla●e before men the faith of him , that professes to believe in christ to be true , and not hypocritical ) that they also tend as well as that t●ue faith they flow from , to justifie formally , and absolve sinners in the sight of god. and though paul rom. . . concludes that a man is justified by faith before god without the deeds of the law ; yet he never concluded as you cloudy expositors of him conclude of his words , which ye wrest , beside his right , to your wrong meanings , any such ma●●er as that a man is justified before god without the good works of the gospel , between which of christs in his saints , and those of the law , which are mens own done without christ of themselves , ye never distinguishing , run so far into confusion as ye do : which deeds of the law done in mans own thoughts , willings and run●ings , and not in the light and spirit of christ the power of god , never reach the thing that is run after ( that is ) the fulfill●ng of it , without which there is no life , for the law requires brick but affords ●o 〈◊〉 , good works but it gives no strength to weak man in the flesh , and fa● wherewith to perform ; ●o the letter onely kills , and onely the spirit giv●s the life ; so both paul and iames , and we , as much as diodate and t. d. do , for ever shut out them ; yea , and so much more , then any of you , do we deny the deeds of the law ( so done ) as to the doing us any good toward our absolution before god , by how much we do both in our life and doctrine establish onely the deeds of the gospel , while you , who doctrinally exclude the laws deeds , do yet practically establish them to your iustification ; for howbeit in words ye establish faith , as that by which ye stand justified formally before god , yet that faith ye act , who believe god accepts your persons and perf●●mances without his righteousness inherent in your selves , and while ye are yet impurged , and not so much as believing you can or must be here purged from your sins , is far from the true faith of the gospel , being no other then the false faith or true fancy of those , who were of moses and the law , that trusted in lying words , that could not profit them , jer. . isa. . isa. . . who thought god did them wrong , if he justified and accepted them not in their fastings and services , though they never fasted from their iniquities , nor loosed the bands of wicdedness , as if when they had been at their formal humiliations for a day , they had procured some dispensation to let hell loose again , and were then delivered to do abomination ; this kind of barren , leafy lean-faith of yours , who look for life in it , is one of those deeds of theirs , who were of the letter and law , and not that of them , who are of the gospel faith , which formally justifies before god , which who are of , are blessed with faithful abraham . but now as to the faith and other good works of the gospel , which all are the works of god himself , and christ iesus working them in his saints , among which faith in the light is the first , from whence others come , without which they cannot be , any more then it can be true without them , and by the name of which faith , for as much as all follow it , all the rest are denominated in gr●ss , john . this is the work of god , that ye believe on him whom he hath sent , these are the righteousness of christ and of his saints , which is one , the being of which in them and in him , and not their being in him and not in them , is counted by god to them as their righteousness , nor doth the faith without them any more then they without it , both which concur as one cau●e thereunto , obtain formal iustification in the sight of god. so that there is a doing some ; and sometimes the same ( material ) good , which deserves no good nor acceptation , but rather evil and reprobation from god , being not good formally , but evil before him , while the same , that does material evil also , does that good : and such was cains sacrifice , which was else as good as abels , yet had noacceptance by right as the other had , because sin lay still at the door , and 't was not the righteous one , but the evil-doer that did the good , and the sinner whom we know god heareth not , who had he done as bene as it was b●num that he did , and offered it as well as the thing of●ered was good , had been justified as well as his brother ; if thou do well ( laith god ) shalt thou not be accepted ? again there is a doing good , which deserves no ill nor cond●mnation , but onely good and iustification before god , being both bonum and b●ne factum also materially good and formally well done , and that , de jure promissi at least , entit●es to an entrance into the kingdom : and such are all the good works done , on the gospels account , in the faith and power of christ the light , and in the leading of the holy spirit , whether faith it self , or lov● , or any other that follow these , which are not of our selves , but by way of gift and grace from god , and strength from christ received by us , who are weak in our selves , the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law , which is all fulfilled in this word , thou shalt love thy neighbour as thy self , for love worketh no ill to his neighbour , therefore is love the fulfilling of the law , gal. . . rom. . , , . and this is the royal law that gives liberty from the lust to envy , or any other evil , that keeps from stealing , and killing , and adulte●y , and from falling in one point as well as in another , of which iames sayes , if ye fulfil it , as by the letter none are , but by the light and spi●it , which lead into the love , the saints are enabled to do , ye do well , jam . . and what is well done , is twice done ; and so is every little that is done in faithfulness according to the measure of the gift received , as from and unto christ , and lets in ( so far ) into the lords acceptance , matth. . . well done good and faithful servant ( was said on the improvement of two talents , as well as five ) thou hast been faithful in a few things , enter thou into the joy of thy lord : this is that love which , when cains wrath doth not , worketh the righteousness of god , jam. . . in the doing of which by christs power in our selves , and not by his doing it without us in himself , who not as without us , but as within us is the iustification from the sin , and so the hope of glory , col. . . he is made in us the righteousness of god , and we the righteousness of god in h●m . and his light within , which leads all that in a cross to the lust follow him in it , to this royal life of love , is that royal and perfect law of liberty , every degree of obedience to which is perfect , as it self is , and not imperfect as all that of those is , who are of the law , and not of faith ; and as thou t.d. imperfectly and weakly wottest this is , for though , as to the law , bonum non oritur nisi ex integris causis , yet i say of true evangelial obedience , none of which is imperfect , for its christs in us , bonum oritur ex qu●libet actu , as well as malum ex quolibet defectu : and howbeit any one or more good works ( as thou sayest p. , . ) is not a fulfilling of the law , done as paul in his blind zeal did them before he knew christ , while he served in the oldness of the letter , and not in the newness of the spirit : for then all the bonum he did , did but break the law , being done not bene , and so what ere he did in any print , he was still guil●y of all , and in that na●●re he did it in , it was but cains sacrifice , which was in the reprobation , the tree not yet being good : yet he that doth and teacheth the least of christs commandements given out in the light , fulfils so far , that he so far enters by right into , and shall be so far great in the kingdom of heaven ; in the observing and obeying of which law onely iustification , acceptation and approvement comes , as an effect of it , in the sight of god as well as in the sight of men ; and so iames will be found affirming , though thy senseless self canst not ( looking in the letter without the light ) well see his sense ; which law or light who so looketh into , and continueth in the doing of what is there shewen , this man shall be blessed ( mark ) in his deed , even with the blessedness described by david psal. . , . and by paul rom. . , , , , , . which is , forgiveness of iniquity , covering of sin , and non-imputation of it , which comes on all ( circumcision and uncircumcision ) tha●●elieve , without difference , rom. . . as it came on faithful abraham , whose faith , with those works iames speaks of iam. . . which were the fruits of it , were not one without t'other , but altogether ( for they were christ the image of god , his operations in him , which thou also sayest p. . are called christ ) accounted or reckoned to him as his righteousness as well in foro dei as hominum : for hereby ( saith god ) know i thou lovest me , because thou hast not witheld thy son ; and again ( mark ) because thou hast done this surely blessing , i will bless thee , &c. as also it was said by christ of mary , her many sins are forgiven her , for this cause , because she loved much : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , cujus gratia propter quod , see arias mountanus : so mark . if thou● wilt enter into life , follow me , and we have forsaken all and followed thee ( saith peter to christ ) what shall we have therefore ? ye shall sit on thrones , saith christ , and everyone , &c. so thes●● . , , . that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of god , for which ye also suffer , seeing it is a righteous thing ( mark ) with god to recompence tribulation to them that trouble you , and to you who are troubled rest with us , because our testimony was believed among you : here faith and sufferings are made the cause upon which by right deservedly , and in righteousness rest is to be expected , as a debt by promise , though phil. . . they are the gift of god to us , and not simply our own works , to you it is given not onely to believe , but also to suffer for his sake . t.d. does not the apostle oppose faith and works ? faith is opposed to it self as a work in the business of iustification . p. . . pamph. rep. faith is neither opposed ( as thou frivolouily supposest ) good works to the gospel , nor yet to it self as a work in the business of iustification , but both it self and all the good works , that are done onely in it , which together with it are the gift of god to us in christ iesus , who is ths authour ; worker and finisher of them , in us , are altogether as the one good work or righteousness of god and christ in the gospel , by which we stand justified before them , opposed to mans meer righteousness and works of the law , by which no flesh living can be justified ; and though paul when he sayes to him that worketh is the ●eward not reckoned of grace , but of debt , but to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly , his faith is counted to him for righteousness , doth ●ppose faith and our works , the gospel and the law , which is not of faith ; yet when thou lookest with clearer eyes , who canst now see with no better then thou hast , thou wilt see that he no where opposes grace and gospel good works , ●aith and the works of christ in us , faith and the fruits of the spirit , of which faith is one , much less ( as thou fai●est ) faith , and it self as a work , but joy●s all these in one , as god and christs single and singular gift of grace to us under the gospel , as that one perfect and personal righteousness by which , as a cause thereof , we are made meet or worthy to be justified in his fight , by which works & that of faith together with them justifying us as a work , as well as an instrument to receive christ and his other operations wrought in us by it , all b●●sting ( as blind as thou art , not to see it ) is eternally excluded , forasmuch as both it and the rest are a gift , as well as works given to us by him to perfo●m , for which the glory belongs onely to the giver and not to the receiver at any hand . t. d. thou sayest as p. . . pamph. the scriptures attribute our iustification to the righteousness of christ in the same sense that they deny it in to works . rep. that 's true , if by the righteousness of christ thou intend the righteousness of his working in us , and by works those works of our working without him , but utterly false , if by his righteousness thou mean what he works without us , and by works what works we work onely in him , for the scripture attributes our iustification to this latter , as to the former it attributes his own , of both which he beinh the onely authour , not unto us ( o lord ) not unto us at all , but to thy name onely be the pra●se ; who dost not ( as thy supposed ministers suppose meerly that thou dost , but far be it from thee so to do ; shall not the judge of all the earth do right ? ) first count men just that are unjust , in this world , and not make them so till the world to come , but first justifie the ungodly from their ungodliness and make them godly , and then countest them to be such as thou hast made them . but awake o ye divine diviners , and see what a dream you are in , who deeming the lord to be no other then like your selves , imagine your selves as pure in his , as you are in your own eyes , though ye are not yet washed from all your filthiness , nor yet believe you need be so in this present world ; whereas he that condemneth the iust , and be that justifieth the wicked in his wickedness ( and i crow god is not an abomination to himself ) both these are an abomination to the lord. and hence is one ground of your so miserable a mistake , in that ye take ( as ye confess your selves ) iustification in its meer forraign , and not in its neer and proper signification ( viz. ) a counting , and not a making of them just , who are not so , whereas iustifica●e and iustificari is iustum facere and iustum fieri to make and to be made just , properly and p●imarily , and then consequently and secondarily to think and to be thought so ; but you fleeing afar off in this and many more points from proper names into forraign acceptations , that ye may be as far as may be from such truths as most torment you , will needs ( in this world at least ) have the words to justifie and be justified , sanctifie and be sanctified , to import and found forth no more then injust●m & improbum justum , & sanctum putare , & putari , & justificare , & sanctificare , & ri , in no wise to be ex injusto , & improbo justum , & sanctum facere , & fieri ; as if in this life god having somewhat else to do , could not well have while to make people iust and holy ; and therefore ( they being also well contended so to be left ) did agree to leave them to the liberty of their lusts , under some certain toleration to live in them , and yet to think them iust and holy in the mean while , notwithstanding , and then hereafter , when men are more willing to it , and himself a little better and more at leasure to do it , to make them iust and holy by some p●pisb purgatory in the life to come . but friends , have a care however of what you do in this case , which is of no less then eternal consequence to your immortal souls ; for assuredly let paul and iames himself , iam. . determine it if you will ( whose sence t.d. thinks he hath 〈◊〉 on his hand ) yet you will find it so that ye can be no further justified then ye are sanctified in the sight of either god , or men that are after the heart of god : yea , if a man say he hath faith , and have not works , can faith save him ? can it profit him ? is it not dead ? yea , knowest thou not o vain ma● , that as the body without the spirit is dead , and can do nothing , so faith without works is dead also , is it not made perfect by works ? was not abraham and others justified by works ? see ye not then that by works a man is justified , and not by faith onely ? yea , quoth t.d. approved by men , but not absolved and accepted of god by works . rep. then let paul speak , rom. . , . the kingdom of god is righteousness , peace and ioy in the holy spirit , he that in these things seereth christ , is acceptable to god ( thereupon surely ) as well as approved of men . though therefore ye dream pleasantly while ye are awake and bless your selves , saying , aha i am warm , i have seen the fire , becau●e in the letter , where ye read by the halves , singling out of it what best suits with , and serves your sinful desires , and leaving out what serves to the crossing of your carnal lust , and corrupt affections , you have been flashily and more shalowly , then solidly , read of a declaration of a righteousness and good works of another , even christ , whereby onely men can possibly come to be saved , never heeding at all that this righteousness of that other is to be wrought in the saints by him , who wrought it first in his own person , before ever they can be justified by it , and their salvation truely wrought out by it , which we confess is to be wrought out by it alone , and not by any that 's meerly mans own ; yet when ye come to see what a meer painted paradice ye have been led into by that false flash of your justifying faith , without works concurrent , which is but the fruit of your affectionate fancy , which would fain have it so , that you might be saved by christ , and yet serve your selves , you 'l find that you and your whissling faith have in all this been but as ig●is fa●●●●● going before , and ignoramus fa●●●●● following after . and though ( to ring back a little to you here to the tune of f.os. talk , mutaris murandis ) about this matter of attonement with god by the blood of christ , p. , , , . of his english pamph. ye king a requiem to your souls , saying with him luke . soul thou hast been disqu●eted , perplexed , and intangled about these considerations ( as all men are more or less ; without exception ) how thou mayest be reconciled and at peace with god , or have an attonment for that guilt , which ( super ) naturally , thou art sensible of , and how thou maist attain to true blessedness , and come to the enjoyment of god ; and thou hast miserably groped up and down in the dark , not able to ●●me to any satisfaction what will become of thee in time to come , and no way able to stand against the uncontroleable convictions of thy own self-condemning conscience : yet now soul take thine ease , eat , drink and be merry , there 's merit enough in store laid up in the righteousness that christ wrought in that single body of his , that long since liv'd and died at jerusalem for the sins of many years past , present and to come , so that there 's no need of any righteousnesse to be wrought ( as in order to thy justification and peace with god ) in that sinful body of thine own , it must & may safely ( fith the righteousness by which thou standst justified in thy sins ( as t.d. sayes david did in his murder and adultery ) resides without thee in another person ) ●●n as long as it lives : let the pop●sh merit-mongers run , when they have no good works of their own , to their treasury of the saints meritori●us g●●d works , the merit of which they buy of the pope for money , and by which they have indulgence and pardon for all sin , for many years to come , and let the qua. run to that righteousness they talk of , which is to be wrought by christ in the persons of men , before ere they can be justified with god , here 's that which shall administer to all and every one of us satisfaction as to all these things as plenipotentiary to the quieting and calming of our spirits , and cut off any further enquiries , after such a thing as goodness , righteousness , holiness , though that of christs own working ( as the qua. say ) in our selves in order to our peace with god ; here 's that that gives us wherein to acquiesce , and wherein we will be satiated ( viz , ) the doctrine of the scripture , which gives as glorious incontroleable a conviction of peace with god by christs righteousness without us ( not within us , as the qua. prate ) as that light in our consciences they tell us of , gives uncontroleable convictions of our sins : there it s revealed ( to those , say i , the eyes of who●e understanding are blinded by the god of this world ) that its christ without , and not christ in us ( or else the devil and his doctors are blind , say i ) which is the h●pe of glory , and upon which we are lookt on as no repro●ates : so that o soul , i would not have thee to cry out of wrath and wo , nor sing to thy self of iudgement , but of mercy to the lord , do thou sing : yea , i must needs cry out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i have found an easie broad way to life , by applying the good of another to my self as mine , as truely as if it were in me inherent , so that i need not turmoil myself as some do , and as the qua. who cant beleeve that what christ has is theirs till they see it conveyed and derived from him , by way of participation to themselves : we can beleive that all that christ hath is ours , though all that we have is our own , and need not be forsaken for his sake : i have found that without me , which in vain , the qua. seek elsewhere , as within them , waxing foolish in their imaginations viz. the businesse of att●nement reconciliation and acceptance with god , which they are contriving to find by christ within them , to the producing of such horrible effects and fruits , as tedious doing good and induring evill for their tenets as we are loath to expose our selves to●● what have they not done ? what have they not suffered ? what miseries extitusque infelices , have not the qua. puld upon themselves , ubivis gentium quo impelluntur fanatici ; by their faith and doctrines of devils , ( so i.o. of qua. doctrines ex. . s. . . and t.d. and t. rumsey of perfect holynesse in this life ) let them meditate terrour and dream of dread and bring themselves into bondage , we will cast these troublesome things far away from our thoughts , though we do sin , and he that commits sin is the servant of sin ( as they tell us ) yet whatever bondage we are in , to sin , we will not be under the spirit of bondage so far as to fear wrath , or dread any danger so long as with such a glorious soul appeasing light ( which say i , is the devill transformed into an angel of light in you ) the doctrine of satisfaction and attonement by the blood of christ , the son of god comes in upon us . this is , that that astonisheth us another way , so that we can't be astonish't nor afraid of any amazement about the matter of our our sins this conquereth all the qua●●●s of conscience this ravisheth and satiateth our souls , that though we may , yea must sin while we li●e , yet they have been already reckond for with one that is our righteousnesse without us , though his image is not formd , nor his righteousnesse wrought in our selves . this is the designed of the apostles discourse to the romans to prove justification by faith without works of ours by christs righteousnesse imputed to us as ours to justification before it be infu●ed to our sanctification ( when the devill is blind say i ) oh with what glory and beauty ( to them that see so much , as we do in the worlds glory and the lust thereof ) with what full and ample satisfaction this doctrine breaks out , this is that we looked for , this is that we were sick for want of the knowledge of ( being wounded by the light of god in our consciences for our sins and withall in such love to them , as to be loath to leave them or depart from them ) viz. to beare of a way or saviour whereby to be sav'd in them , and that we have now found and though we once c●yed out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and were at our wits ends feeling our selves sinking to hell yet this christ ( without us , without whom we also are feeling neither him us nor our selves in him ) this and not in the imaginary christ of the qua. within them is the stone , by which we will stay our minds in as perfect peace , as we can , by putting away the sense of sin , and the evill day far from us : ex. . s. . dicat quod quis que volet ex hac opinionem non dimovebimur . though i say these things are in truth , the sum and substance of your sayings , the very image , proportion , lively pourtraiture of your dead faith ; which ye count living , and saving , and justifying and what not ? yet as the lord lives you l find it dead , even thou i.o.t.d. and your fellowes , as well as we have done , who were as high in that supposed saving faith , but reall fancy , as your selves , and your selves utterly undone before the lord for all that , when he comes to enter into judgement with you , as he hath with his own house , the qua. where the iudgement in these dayes hath begun : therefor be ye warned , who seem to sit warm by this your fantastical faith and imaginary painted fire , for whatever ye think , and how ever ye blesse and flatter your selves , with hopes of true bliss● and blessednesse in this way , wherein ye erre , not knowing the scriptures , which are true , but that ye understand them not , nor yet the power of the wrath of god ; yet this is but your own righteousnesse all this while ( ) though reall , as in christ , yet of your own faining to your selves , as yours , and yet not your own neither , so as that ye shall ever be saved by it , till ye come to put it on and be cloathed with it , in your own persons : it s but a fire of your own composing with wood and hey and stubble , and sticks , and straws ; that crackles in your conceits like that of thorns under a pot , that will soon flap down , and not last longer then such flashy fuell as your fancies seed it with : it s not the joy of the righteous which the strangers , intermedle not with , which burns sure and sollidly and the more when cold water is thrown upon it . yea from the lord god , i say to you all , as t was said of old to such as trusted in the name of the lord without his ●●ture , behold all you that kindle a fire , and compasse your selves about with sparks , walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks which ye have kindled , but this shall you have at last from the hand of the lord , ye shall ly down in sorrow . and though in your pleasant trance , you sweetly sleep it our every one within your tents , as in a pavillion , and snort it our every one to another that your iniquityes are hid and your sins ( who declare your sin as sodom , and hide it not ) are covered , and the lord impares , them not , though ye are far from them , in whose hearts there is no guide , as if ye were those hidden ones of god , that he himselfe sees no sin in , because it s by christs blood ( really and not imaginarily ) washt away : and though you canonize your selves into the compellation of the saints while in your sins , and then sooth up and comfort one another under that title with smooth words , yet i●a . . . . as a dream of a night vision , wherein an hungry , and thirsty man dreameth he eateth and drinketh , but behold he awaketh and is empty , and faint , and his soul hath apptite so shall all the maltitude of those meer ●imaginers and image-makers be ●●yea , as in a dream , when one awaketh so when the lord awakes to visit you ( 〈◊〉 do●ing dreamers ) he will assuredly despise your image , psal. . yet t. d. sowes soft pillowes under the arm-holes of his fellow sainted-up-sinners , least they should 〈◊〉 under the unsupportable burden of their wounded spirits , when the light begins to shew them to themselves , and judgement to take hold on them , and their own sins to slave them in the face ; saying that a man once justified cannot become unjustified again in the sight of god , and what the saints do , he heeds it not , so as to mention it to the saints ; and would have the saint by all meanes not be so senselesse , as not to hold the sense of his present interest in gods favour and pure presence , though at present under the same sins , which god behold as paule y iniquity in another , but as petty infir●●●●● onely in him , because he taketh pleasure 〈◊〉 in his ( sinning ) 〈◊〉 , witness david , who ( quoth t.d. p. ) when he was guilty ( mark ) of adultery and murder was not in a condemmed state but in a justified estate , in proof of which i have said more , sayes t.d. to r.h. then this man or any of his brethren can answer ; in vindication whereof also when was urged and proved against him that david was then , and long after condemned in his own conscience psal. ●● . . and therefore could not stand justified before god , who is greater then our hearts , and must ( if they do ) much more condemn us , ● iohn . . t. d. replyes ( most unanswerably indeed ; to what one might expect from one that sayes no qua , can answer what he sayes ) all this , which is 〈◊〉 : ●● it does not appeare to me that david was at this time ( mark ) unjustified in his own conscience , but the contrary ; i.e. justified for he spoke those words , psal. ● . . that thou might●st be justified when thou speakest and cleare when thou judgest after nathan had come to him and told him that the lord had put away his sin . rep. which coming of nathan t.d. was then told ( but that he was so absurd as not to heare ) and hereby in told again , was after the childe was born , and not while the adultery and murder was commited , which words of nathan the lord hath put away thy sin being spoken not till david had confest to him that he had sinned against the lord , which was not till many months after his vile sinning , do evidently evince it to any thats not wilfully blind , that for many months his sin was not put away , but remained on the file , and that the lord did not hold him guiltlesse , nor the light in his own conscience neither till he had truly repented from his sins . yet least any poor saint like sinfull soul should sink down , while he lyes in the sordid sink thereof , under sin & the sense of the losse of his interest in gods love , since he is so deriled that he may easily suppose himselfe to stink in the in his sight . t.d. who hath not one in all his apothecaries shop ( for ought i find ) to save the soul of a saint from sinning , hath another antidote at hand , whereby to strengthen the hands , and save the soul of the sinning saint from sinking so low , as to beleeve god loves or likes him , ere the lesse , when he has done : yea , he is never without his cordialls and pills , to purg the head and heart from all sense of judgement , that that evill day may be put a far off and the saints he past feeling of wrath , when they sin , and so be more secure in commission of it ; but pills to purge from the sin it selfe ; he is so far from vending , that by his good will , he would have none of them licensed to be vented by the qua. in the country where he hath to do : or if any course be taken to purge men throwly by calling them to perfect holynesse in this life , he takes to contrary a course to keep the men unpurg'd , as to mount against those , as against some cheating mounte banks , as delivering no better then the doctrine of devils , and to make men beleeve ( that are such infidells in christ as to give credit to t.d. ) that 't is not possible to attain to such a purging as this in the body , no not by the very all-healing herb of grace it self . his antidote to preserve the saints from too deep a sense of their sins , is this , whereas the qua , tell them , that if the light in their own consciences accuse , and condemn them from the face of god for sinning , there 's no god nor christ that holds them guiltlesse , sith that of god within is his witnesse and vicegerent , that what it sayes and judges in them , is as the voice of god himselfe , and if that create trouble , man cannot create solid peace . tush ( quoth t. d for to the same purpose he talkes though not in totidem verbis p. . ) what tell you us of conscience ; conscience is often erroneous , and not rightly guided in the very saint . talk of conscience to the wicked , its office is to be a witnesse against them for their sins , which if it do not check them , but tell them god loves , justifies and accepts them , when they sin , it s defiled , tit. . and leads them into a wrong opinion of their estates in that it testifies that their estate is good when it s nothing lesse , for to the impure is nothing pure ; but unto the pure all things are pure , and when the saints sin and are defiled thereby , the office of conscience ( as a witnesse ) in them , if it do its office , is to cleare and comfort and speak peace , and if it offer to trouble them when they fall throw infirmity into fowl enormity , and dare be so bold as to darken their evidence of gods love , and of their justification in his sight , when they are guilty ( as david was once of things not fit to be named among saints ) yet i dare be so bold as to say it is defiled in the saints , and testifies falshood to them also , in saying that their estate is bad when ( for all their sins ) it is good no lesse then it tells lyes to the wicked , that their estate is good when it s nothing lesse . thus we have the unconquerable and that uncontrolable comfort which t. d. administers to the saints , when they become sinners , and fall into the same folly and filth with other wicked men , who is very a boanerges or son of thunder as he is in a few slight words , more th●n the same solid power with peter and iohn to the wicked ; yet to the saints ( of his own coyning ) is he another barrabas or son of consolation ; i mean not another of the same with him , who confirmed the saints in their goodnesse and grace , but another of another kind , that comforts , confirmes and chears up his sinfull saints in their sins , and dawbs them over , who are dirty enough already ( if such he saints , as he sayes are ) with his own more dirty doings , who would have them live as justified in gods sight , and as uncondemned in themselves as saints , whilst ore head and eares in their sins . but will all this hold t.d. ? little did i once think ever to have seen such a dish of doctrine drawn by a divine from tit. . . though unto the pure all things are pure , was wont the same way to be wrested by the ranters ; and for my own part had i been minded to look for such a licenti●us piece of libertinisme , as he would learn men from thence ( as i am far from it , knowing that in maxima libertate , there 's minima licentia ) yet i should sooner have lookt for a needle in a bottle of hey , as they say , then have lookt for the like from thence , or have scrap't in that scripture to find it , if t.d. had not told me , it had been there ; where yet ( for all his telling me of a justification of a saint in his sins ) i cannot yet find or see such a thing , nor any else i ( beleeve ) but such as are as blind as himselfe : for the light in the conscience of both good and bad , doth tell them infallibly what they are , and testifie to the face of the best man in the world , that god doth not justifie him while he sins ; which witnesse of god within their own hearts is greater then the witnesse of man , and will have audience at last , when it begins to speake out , when such a one as i , may easily be slighted , who witnesse onely for god from it , and therefore i shall say but little more to this matter ; neverthelesse when t.d. and his un●ust justified ones , come once to feel it stand upon its feet , which like an innocent , just , h●ly lamb , hath been hitherto slain by the beast within them , because it torments them with telling too much truth , great fear will then fall on such as see it , and have made merry over it in its captivity , and at the same time , there will be a great earthquake , and lightnings , and voices , and terrible thunderings , and great hail out of heaven , the plague whereof shall be exceeding great , every stone perhaps about the weight of a talent , rev. ii. rev. . the storm of which shall overthrow their open hiding places and sweep away their refuge of lyes , and disanull the covenant , which these d unkards of ephraim have made with death and hell , and passe over them like an overflowing scourge , so that they shall be all troden down by it : iudgement also shall be laid unto the line , and righteousnesse to the plummet , isa. . to take a more exact account of them before god , then they are willing to give of themselves , who now not knowing the goodnesse and grace of god within them , which in his love , as a light , is given to teach , and to lead them unto repentance , tit. . . rom. . . to . are in the hardnesse and impenitency of their hearts treasuring up wrath to themselves against the day of wrath and the revelation of the righteous iudgment of god , wh● in the day when he shall judge the secrets of men , by christ iesus the light according to the gospell , that paul himself preached , will ( mark ) in his righteous iudgment render to every man according to his deeds , ( viz. ) to them , who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory , honour and immortality , eternall life : yea , glory , honour , and peace to every soul of man ( mark ) that worketh good : but unto them , that are contentious , and do not obey the truth , but obey unrighteousness , indignation and wrath , tribulation and anguish upon every one that doth evill without respect of persons , yet the iew first , who say they are jewes , and are not , but do lye , and are the synagogue of satan , and also to the gentile ; then shall they know that such as sin , whether without the law , or in the law in the letter , shall be judged respectively ; by that letter such as have it , and all by that light in the conscience , by which all are a law to themselves , and that it is not the hearers , and preachers , and praters against the laws justifying , but the doers of the law onely by the power of christ , which onely does it , shall be justified . three or four more of t. d.'s . ( in comparison of what we might expect from him in satisfaction ) most unanswerable answers to such arguments , as were urged by us in proof of iustification by the spirit of life and grace of christ in us , and by his fulfilling the law in us , throw the condemnation of sin both in , and cleare out of our flesh , and by our walking not after the flesh , but after the spirit , as a cause that gives right and title to it , i shall speak a little to , and then dismisse t.d. as to this point , till i meet him again in other matters , about which he joyns in with j. owen , with whom i must come to joyn again too by and by , about the scripture and the light , and some other things , least he thinks i am lost in this long bout with t.d. so as to be run quite away and never meane to come at him any more . the . scriptures alledged and out of which it was argued in proof of the point above said were i cor. . ii. rom. . . rom. . . tit. . . to the ist. , and such were some of you , but ye are washed , but ye are santified , but ye are justified in the name of the lord iesus , and by the spi●t of our god , whence 't is to be observed that the corinthians are said to be justified by the spirit . t.d. replyes i might say that perhaps that clause should be referred to sanctification , which is in a more appropriate manner attribu●ed to the spirits efficiency , as if the words had been , but ye are sanctified by the spirit of our god ; and he gives his instance for the transposition from math. . . give not that which is holy to dogs , neither cast your pearls before swine , least they trample them under their feet and turn again and rent you , where turn again and rent you , is to be joyned to the dogs ( quoth t.d. ) for as swine do trample under their feet , so dogs do ●ly upon a man , or teare him down , or else justified by the spirit , may be meant of the spirits application , i mean ( quoth he ) the d. person is the trinity , not of the work of grace whereof we are the subject . rep. to all which i reply thus ist. let the reader observe how t.d. dances between two , and serves the turn of truth against i.o. who blames the qua. and others for denying the text of scripture to be such a certain , immoveable , stable , 〈◊〉 , standard , touchstone , of all truth as he contends it to be , and for calling it a nose of wax , not infassible , because flexible to every mans fancy , while the said td . by his twining it , which way he finds will fit him best , proves it so to be , no lesse then practically , to our hands , yea , quid verbis opus est , cum facta loquuntur , doth not t.d. make a very nose of wax , a lesbian rule a meer peice of lead of the letter , a reeling rule , in unstedfast standard , when he plucks it to peices as he pleases , and makes many meanings of it , and then out of them , still takes that that best takes with him , and makes most for his own penurious purpose , for sometimes he turns one text into two senses , and when he hath twatled one text into two senses , and is so betwatled in himself , as not to know which of the twain to betake himself certainly to as the spirits , sayes it must be either t'one or t'other , or it may be either this or , that thrusting out the third , be it nere so plain and obvious , if it clear the qua. cause when indeed ( exclusively of the qua which is most right and true ) its neither this or that , nor t'one nor t'other ; witnesse the text in hand ; sometimes again gives three senses to one text , witnesse ioh. i. . to which position of christ , that true lights enlightning every man that cometh into the world , he puts three ( viz. ) p. . . every man that is enlightned ; . some of every nation , and . p. . everyman who is ( spiritually ) enlightned to which three i.o. who joyns with t.d. in one of his three , saying everyman is not spoken absolutely of all , and every man , but with relation onely to the elect , whom he is gratiously pleased to enlighten , being not contented with that one single simple sense , doubles his files , and adds a fourth sense more nonsensicall then all the rest , which as senselessely he serves from that scripture phrase as 't is in the greeke ( viz. ) not as the qua. speake christ enlightens every man coming into the world , but thus the true light coming into the world , enlightens every man , making the participle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to agree with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and not with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which ( but that , considering the order and placing of the words in the greek , it s far more cleare that way wherein it s construed by the qua. considering its analogy ( as so ) with the whole scope of the scripture also ) might with more colour , then now it is , be wrested the wrong way , as it is by i.o. and be construed as c●ookedly as 't is by him ; but as much as he hopes to overtop the truth with standing upon the double construction of a greek term ; yet he cannot , by all his taking so much thought about it , add one cubit , nor yet an irch to the stature of his 〈◊〉 talk from that scripture , but rather pulls him self a pegg or two lower , if ( though yet we will not ) we should grant him his will in his own way , as to his double cause both about the letter , and against the light : for if the originall text may be so doubtfull as to be truly construed two ways in one phrase , or place ; how fit such a flexible thing is to be counted the onely stable and infailible guide , as he pleads it to be to meet fallible men , a more foolish wise man , and silly scribe , then i.o. is , cannot but se● : and as to the true lights enlightning every man , which he impleads thereby , what gets he , if we grant him his own improper exposition ? for whether we read the true light enlightens every man coming in the to world , or the true light coming into the world enlightens every man it amounts to one and same still , and both are tanta mount to no lesse then what the qua. stand for , and i.o. and t.d. against ( viz. ) that the true light , which is come into the world , joh. . doth enlighten every man that comes into it . so here 's more then a good many ( viz. ) by t.d. and by i.o. whereof one is of the , and t'other a fourth beast divers ( like the fourth in daniel . . ) from all his fellows , that is to say between them both . meanings in all , made of one text , which mean all together to exclude the quakers fift , as an odd one , though the onely true one , that without mincing and pinching in the mind of the spirit is there intended in the text by the spirit , in which it was written ; for though their senses are some of them true enough to serve out turn , yet ( as they mean ) not so fully as the spirits true one ; in proof of the truth of which , when we , who are of the light , and of the day , and so needing no proof of it to our selves , it s so cleare , do tell them , who are of the night and darknesse , that our meaning is drawn from the import of the phrases , and ours is the very meaning of the word , as the letter of them doth import , and ours is the most genuine interpretation of the words , as they are taken in the most ordinary and literall sense of them , and that their meanings are far fetch● , forraign and every way improper ; t.d. wipes away all this with a wet finger , and though himself i know not how o●ten argues ad libitum , which way he will , and none must controle him , yet me mutire nefas , we must be tyed to take such a sense as is imposed on us : as for him he argues sometimes from the figurative and me●onimicall as p. . christ is said ( quoth he ) to be in us by a metonymy of the cause for the effect : so p. . holynesse of that state of the resurrection is cal'd perfect by a metonymy of the subject for the adjunct ; sometimes from the forraign and more unusuall , yea improper ; sometimes from the most ordinary , usua●l , genuine and proper signification of the words , sometimes from ( as he saith at least , but falsly ) the literal sense and import of the phrases as p. . as for the phrase ( in your hearts ) it imports the same ( quoth he ) with that , &c. and p. . when the kingdom of god is luk. . . by christ and his , said to be in the pharisees that expression may import ( quoth he ) that the kingdome which they upon a mistake did look for without them , was indeed a kingdome within them , and that ( say i ) is very true , t.d. himselfe hath there imported the very truth for the expression ( in you ) imports the kingdomes not being whi●hout them in the outward observation , wherein they lookt for it , but really within them , as he said , indeed : neverthelesse t.d. who is like his father , that ab●de not in the truth , cannot abide ( when he happens to be in it ) to be long in it neither , and is never well till he is out of it again ; therefore when by hap hazard , he had utter'd the truth from the right imp●rt of the phrase ( in you ) cannot rest till he has chang'd his mind , and to his first and true , hath added another d and false meaning ( so mightily is he enamoured with many meanings and senses ) and therefore addes another as false as his first was true from another import of the same expression , as wrong as his first was right : thus , to which i shall add ( quoth he ) that upon d thoughts ( secondae cogitationes are mostly meliores , but are ( i must not say maliores , for that were false latine , though true in english to him that can english it ) but longe pepres in this place ) i judge the most genuine interpretation to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 among you , so the preposition may be rendered in which last import of t.d. the case is so altered from what it was before , that is stead of that one truth ( could he have kept to it ) he uttered before , he hath now uttered more errours , and falsities , and absurdities then one , for if the proposition i● may be rendred among , and so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may possibly sometimes ( as , if ever , it seldom does ) import among you , yet first it is not usual nor ordinary , much less its primary , proper , literal , nor ( as t.d. calls it ) its most genuine , but a most unusual , forraign , secondary , illiteral , ingenuine and improper import ; and . in very deed , if t.d. will vouchsafe that scripture , luke . . a review , he may come to return to his first judgement , which he past in truth ( viz. ) that the kingdom was indeed within them , and upon his second looks to judge as right , as he went from , the right to iudge amisse upon his second thoughts , for what ever 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may improperly import , yet in the greek it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which imports not among you , and can properly import no other sense then truly and properly within you : in in opere longe obrepsit somnus , as i.o. saith , and sith non divinum , but humanum est errare , aliquando bonus dortat homerus : but however there 's two meanings to that one scripture ( as t.d. sayes ) it may import so , or it may import so ; so that the reader of t. d. may take his choice , and read his inalterably reeling-rule of the scribes wrested scripture which way he will , and not let it rule him , but rule over him as he listeth . thus these two men t.d. and i.o. impose as many meanings , according to their own minds , which are not the same that was in christ , as they see good on the scriptures , and in stead of reconciling them , and letting people ( to whom t.d. sayes , they seem to be at va●iance among themselves ) see how well th●y are agreed , and in stead of causing them like the cherubims , to face one another , which t.d. sayes p. . . is his dury and part of their work , they set them at variance , by their several senses on them , and pervert them by their perhaps's , per adventures and pratings against the phrases most proper , and for and about their own improper imports , saying perhaps it s so , or else perhaps so , the expression may import so , but upon the second thoughts i iudge rather ( for it may be s●●rendred ) the most genuine interpretation is so , the meaning is not so as the ph●ase imports , it must be either so , or else so , or else so , or else so ; as who should say , we 'l have it any way , rather then the qua. shall have it theirs ; and cause it to face three or four wayes at once , if never a one of them be right , and altogether against within , where the onely true way is , which wayes the cherubims alwayes lockt , with their faces onely inward : and they make to it not onely many meanings , but any meanings , though never so uncouth , and contrary to truth , sense and reason , so they may but wave off and wind away from the right true meaning and mind of christ , luke . . the kingdom in you is not without , but indeed within you ; and yet upon second thoughts quoth t.d. it is not in you , but among you , p. . and rom. . . the righteousness of the law said to be fulfilled in us , imports not in our persons , but in christ ; p. . and omnes , everyman is not every man , but of every sort some , omnes is not all , but here and there one ; p. . so see i.o. exer. . sect. . hoc est syncategorema istud omnis , the world , whole world , john . . i john . , . not the whole world , nor the most of it , but the elect onely , that are out of it , not of it but a few in it , as t.d. at the dispute ; so that on this soore our scribes scape scot-free still by their shifts . to meet with quakers priests need never doubt , nor need they when they meet them f●ar a rout ; if ( all ) 's but ( some ) ( out ) 's ( in ) and ( in ) 's for ( out ) then they are alwayes ( in ) and never ( out ) thus the seed of the serpent saves it self alive in its enmity against the holy seed , not so much by plain down right dealing , nor any bold open facings of the truth , quae non quaerit argulos , but by cowa●dly creeping into corners , shameful sh●frings from sense to sense , mi●●rable marchings from meaning to meaning , ●o that one can hardly know well where to have them , nor how to find them , nor what they mean , any more then they , who know not which way to take , when they have two or three before them of their own devising , nor very well what to mean , nor very distinctly what they do mean them●elves . but as for us , nos mutire nefas , we may not safely without their censures , so much as take the scripture to be what themselves are neither afraid nor ashamed to make them ; ( viz. ) a lesb●an rule , a n●se of wax , which may be made ( yet scarcely is by any more then themselves ) to shew it self in , , , shapes at once . and though they dare di●pute themselves and argue any way from figurative and f●●a●gn , and proper and improper , literal or mystical meanings and importments of words and phrases , yet they can well digest or di●pense with none of all this in us , and least of all when we do ( as we mostly or ever do ) keep to the ●rue , hon●st , ordinary & plain purport of the words , as they lve open and clear to every ordinary and common capacity that is willing both to know , own and do the truth , but rather will take any , and if one will not serve , two mean●●gs at once , or one after another , whereof one overturns t'●ther , to cross the truest by , and leave the reader to chuse , which best likes him of two or three , so be he will leave that single one of the qua , witness t.d. who takes on him to domineer over all our truly divine ones , with his different , dev●sed and divided ones ; who , when r.h. puts that one true one , even the same that is expressed in the words on iohn . puts two meanings to oppose it , adding p. . i would have him to know that both the meanings are the holy ghosts , though but one is intended in that place , the ph●ases will bear either senses ( that is ) those aforesaid , and either of them c●●ss his interpretation ; and p. . the meaning of those words iohn . . cannot be as the l●●tter of them does import , but it must be either every man that is enlightned , or else some of every nation : and p. . it was usual with christ to speak words of a doubtful sense , christs meaning may be mistaken , when his words are taken in the most ordinary and literal sense , and so it would be if by every man we should understand every individual man ; so that 't is your self ( quoth he to g.w. ) and not i that am such a giver of meanings , as the iewes , who gave theirs contrary to christs meaning : and p. ii. when to prove perfect purging from sin , here i urged psal. . , , . blessed are the undefiled in the way , &c. they do no iniquity , as for the phrases ( quoth t.d. ) they are hyperbolical ; thus any t. y is used to turn the truth off with : and p. . when r.h. urged iohn . . who so is born of god doth not commit sin ; t●at cannot be meant of freedom from sin , but either there is an emphasis in the word sin , intending by it one sort of sin ; or , if not on the substantive , on the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which notes to make a trade of sin : so p. . to the scripture under hand , cor. . . ye are justified by the spirit of our god , urged by us to prove iustification by the spirit in us . i might say ( quoth t.d. ) perhaps that clause should be referred to sanctification , or else justified by the spirit , maybe meant of the spirits application , which is as much as to say , perhaps it s this , perhaps it s that , but i well know not , whether this or that : so that the reader may of two take either , but will ( say i ) is wise , take ●e●ber ; for though two strings to his bow still t.d. hath , for fear one should snap , yet neither of the●e here will hold on t.ds. side so much as ours , nor if both could be twined so as to stand together in one ( as they cannot , they are so divers and destructive to each other ) would they prove strong enough to reach the butt , so but that by his overshort shooting t.d. at this time will loose all he shoots for . for first to begin next with thy last clause , wherein thou dar'st , or at least dost preach out thy meaning not positively , but possibly only , or by perhaps , as in the first , that justified by the spirit , may be mea●t of the spirits application , meaning the third person in the trinity ( as thou term'st it ) which phrase of justified by the spirit , if it may imply such a thing as the holy spirits applying christs righteousness to us , yet must it needs imply such a far-from , antick applying , as thou implyest , who falsly imaginest that to be truly applyed to men , that stands at such a vast distance , as to be no nearer to them then heaven is to earth ? if the spirit of god apply righteousness to any man for his iustification , doth he do it by the halves , as thou vainly hopest , so as to impute it , where he doth not convey it ? doth he not do it in a more perfect manner then so , as to give him his share , part or place in it , without its having its share , part or any place at all in him ? is it false doctrine , as thy self p. . rela●est r.h. relating thou said'st it was , to say a man must fi●st partake of the righteousness which justifies , before it can be imputed to him as his ? and that is that a mans righteousness any otherwise then imaginarily ? is it so truly , properly and perfectly , that he partakes no more , & hath no more partin , nor participation of then meerly by way of computation and supposition onely , so as to be counted to him to the steading of him , till it be some way or other also actually and really conveyed to him ? and grant we be justified by the righteousness of another onely , and not our own ( yea cur●ed for ever be and will be that man ( say i ) that looks for iust●fication by any righteousness that is meerly his own ) eccl. . . for the righteousest man , that is onely in his own , perisheth in his righteousness , and i have seen such a one as well as paul , he that ever comes to gods righteousness , rest or sabbath , hath left and lost his own righteousness , hath ceased from his own works , as god did from his , isa. . . hab. . . yet is there not a righteousness which man lives in the doing of , that is done in the assistance of another ? did david not say , let integrity and uprightness preserve me ? is there not a iust man that walketh in his integrity , and that lives in the doing of the equity ? ezek. . can there be ( as thou falsly and lyingly , boldly and blindly sayest there cannot p. . ) no way of conveyance of that others righteousness , so that thereby the benefit of it may redound unto us , as truly as if we were every way the subjects of it , but by imputation ? can it at no hand be conveyed from that other to us by impartition first , and then by imputation to us , as most truly , really ours , and not fictitiously onely , afterwards ? can we by no means be truly said to be the subject inhesive of it , and yet it be said to be not our own properly , but onely anothers righteousness , working it in us ? is there not a subjectum in quo , which yet is not p●r qu●d , as well as a subjectum cui ? a subjectum inhaesionis duplex ( viz. ) secundum formalem inhaerentiam originaliter , & primario , & secundum formalem inherentiam derivative , & secundari● , as well as secundum extrinsecam adhaerentiam & imputationem : a subject in which the righteousness of christ is wrought ( viz. ) man , which is not ( save as an instrument ) he by whom it is wrought , but a vessel ( as it were ) in which it is revealed and received , into which through faith in the light , which is the gift of god , and a part the●eof ( also ) it is in part conveyed before it is imputed , unto which said subject , but as thereinto it is conveyed , it cannot possibly be imputed , from him that calls no evil ones good , more the good ones evil , more the good ones evil , and unrighteous ones righteous , the pure onely pure , and all that 's impure impure , nor shews himself in any shape ( save as a iudge ) to any , but the pure in heart , and the inhaerent subjects of his own holiness , without which none can see him approving ? must not both he that justifieth , and they that are justified , as well as he that sanctifieth , and they that are sanctified , be all of one , heb. . . be all as one , in one na●u , reimage , ga●b and cha●hing , that so he may not be ashamed to call them brethren , who will b● ashamed of all that are ashamed of him and of his words , mark. . . and is ashamed to call them brethren , who are not ashamed to be brethren in iniquity ? can that be accounted and reputed by that most holy head , a part or member of his unspotted body , that is yet filthy and unholy , or before he hath in any measure at all purged it , and made it ho●y & fit for himself , that is yet full of spots , and wrinkles , and blemishes , as upon thy principles t. d. must be supposed ? will god esteem any just , clean and pure before , i say before so much as in order of nature he hath justified them by his spirit ? will he before he hath washt and sanctified them ? hath any unrighteous one , while he is yet unrighteous , and before he be made righteous , a right to the kingdom of god ? is it not more then is to be read in any scripture , but the scripture of the scribes , that from the example of david would fain be found justified , and favoured of god , for the sake of anothers goodness , that they put far away from them , that they might be more free to , then from their sins ? are there not yet treasures , treasuries of wickedness in the house in the heart of the wicked , and the measure of leannesse , which is abominable ? and shall i count them pure with their wicked ballances ( faith god ) and with the bag of deceitful weights ? mic. . , . t.d. yes ( quoth t.d. ) why not ? for the purity and righteousness of another that was made sin for us , though he knew no sin , that we who yet know no righteousness of our own , nor of his neither within our selves , might be made the righteousness of god in him : from that scripture cor. . rep. t.d. then be like accounts that we are but just so , and not a jot otherwise , then as he was made sin for us , made the righteousness of god in him ; & so as he was made sin , that never committed any sin , & was accounted a sinner , that never was so by either nature or practice in his own perso● , had though the realty of our sorrows , sufferings and miseries , but the meer imputation of our iniquities ; so we must in him be made righteousness , but never perform any , and be accounted righteous , but never be so by nature or practice in our own persons , and have the reality of his rest , peace , i●●es and eternal blessedness , but the meer imputation onely of his holiness and obedience , and as god laid , lasht and punisht on that innocent immaculate lamb without spot , that never owned nor delighted in any , but ever hated all iniquity , the iniquity of us all , seeing he was willing to become a curse for us all , to bear our cross and take our shame upon him , so he will put upon such saints all , as t.d. calls himself and others , while in their sins , as never owned nor delighted in , but ever hatred the doing of righteousness altogether in their own persons , the reward of all his personal righteousness , seeing also they are as willing as as he was to be accu●sed for them , to be blessed in him , to bear his crown , and take all his dignities and glory upon themselves ; for the words of t.d. are these ( p. . ) t.d. how he is our righteousness , cor. . ult . tells us , as christ was made sin for us , so we are made the righteousness of god in him ; but the former was by imputation , not inhaerence , and therefore so the other . rep. how now t.d. what is it so indeed , even so and not otherwise , that as christ was made sin for us , which was , secundumte , by imputation onely , never inherence , so we are made righteousness ( i.e. ) by imputation onely , never by inherence ? art thou not a loud lyar in this ? if not , then farewell all hopes of ever having any righteousness at all in themselves , to those blessed ones that hunger and thirst after it , not only in this world , where such are to be filled , but also i● that world wich is to come ; and as for such as hating righteousness , are in hopes to be held righteousness , and saved without it , and by that alone which is in christ without them , they need not fear so much as they do its entrance so far into them , as to have dominions over them , for if his word be worth taking t.d. warrants them , that as christ never entred into t●a●sgressi●● , though he was tempted to it , nor transgression into him , but it was onely accounted to him , so as to be rewarded with evil upon him ; so god will never let them come into his righteousness , nor let it come into them to trouble them with that tedious transformation of them , from the fashions of this old world , by the renewing of their minds , into a new creature , but onely adde or leave them to adde iniquity unto their iniquity , that when the iniquity of these sin●ul saints is at the height , the rewa●d of christs righteousness may be given them . but seeing there 's no such haste , nor much need to make mad folks run , who can find the way fast enough to hell , whether ( facilis discersus a●●rn● ) the descent is easie , and the devil eager and skilful enough to drive them without t. d.s doctrine to help him , i shall check the wilde a●lies colt in his course , which lacks much more to be fetcht in with the spirits bridle , then forc't on with t.ds. anti-scriptural spurre : in order whereunto i deny the first proposition of t. ds. last argument , as utterly untrue , for that scripture cor. . ult . tells us not so ( as he faith it tells us ) it doth not say ( as ) christ was made sin for us ( s● ) we righteousness in him , as t.d. repeats it to the perverting of it , as by his perverse readings , repetitions , rendings , renditions , sundry silly senses , and manifold foolish meaning he perverts many more : but it faith of god , that he made him sin for us who knew no sin , that we might be made the righteousness of god in him ; and that 's another matter , then t.d. makes of it ; who first writes it down the wrong way , and then wrests it to a worse end ; for if it were truely so ( but that text sayes not that it 's so as t.d. mis-rehearses it ) then to transpose his own words p. . as christ is no sinner by inhaerent defilement but by imputation onely , so his members must for ever be no saints by any inherent holiness or purity , but imputation onely ; and as christ never was the subject ( inhasionis ) of what we were such subjects of ( viz. ) sin , lust , filth , envy , hatred , and other works of the flesh , which the light condemns , but was accursed for them onely , as things done by us and not him , so we m●st never be such subjects , as he was of the contrary graces and fruits of the spirit , love , ioy , meekness temperance , &c. but must onely be saved for them as things done by him , but never from them to all eternity , but remain ( as he was in all points of misery , cursedness , affliction , infirmity , evil and sorrow , tribulation , temptation , like unto us , transgression and sin onely excepted , heb. . . so ) in all points of mercy , blessedness , ioy , peace , power , glory , rest , good consolation and happiness , like unto him , inherent grace , righteeousness and holiness onely excepted : and so the body , that is united to that head , must abide absolutely for ever , as filthy as the head it self perfectly holy , which is a doctrine as false as falshood can make it , and a matter not onely ridiculous and monstruous to imagine , but more monstruously ridiculous , if that meer imagination should be true . humano capiti cervicom pictor equinam iungere si vellet risum teneatis amici ? and if t. d. ( the summe of whole doctrine from the scripture is this ; viz. as the iust once suffered for the unjust , but was never made inhaerently unjust by his injustice , so the unjust are saved for the iust ones sake , but must never be made inhaerently just by his justice ) shall yet insist upon it as at all inferred from that place , i desire him in order to his satisfaction to the contrary to eye it a little better , as it is in the greek , and then instead of arguing thus ( as he falsly does ) that as christ was made sin , so we are made righteousness by imputation , not inherence , he may ( as i do ) find good ground from thence to argue thus ( viz. ) if christ was made sin , but by imputation onely , not inherence , and we righteousness , not by imputation onely , but inherence , then not so ●● he was made sin for us , are we made the righteousness of god in him , but in another manner : but the former is true , therefore the latter . in proof of the former , let it be well weighed , how the apostle when he sayes , god made him sin for us , uses the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is of a far more shallow and slender signification then that he uses , when he saith that we may be made righteousness of god in him ( viz. ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is a word of a deeper dye ; for howbeit , they both are rendred by this term ( made ) in the english text , yet do found forth two different sorts of makings , whereof the one is not so real and substantial as the othe● : for the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , though they do signifie a true making sometimes , and may truly be translated fac●o , efficio , and ( passive ) efficior , yet is at most but a making of a more ( as i may so say ) sleightby , external and accidental kind then the other , & sometimes such a one as amounts to no more then a meer accounting or reckoning a matter to be so or so , as it is thereby said to be made : wereupon they are sometimes rendred not onely in many other secondary sense , as by afficio 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 afficio te malis ) also by causo , pono , propono , redulo , colloco , sometimes simul , & when one is said to be made a child an heir that is not so born , by adupt● but used also sometimes to express existrimo , and to signifie the making of a thing no otherwise then by meer ●ptimation and computa●ion , and so god is said here to make christ sin for us , who knew and did no sin , in himself ; but the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies such a solid sort of making as gives the thing , not a meer notional and accountative , but a real and no less then a true natural being so or so , as it is thereby denominated to be made ; for ( if more can be ) its more then sio , factus , sum i am made , even no less then nascor , gignor , natus , genius , siam , i am so or so bern , so by birth , so by nature , not by some meer external fabrication or function , as a dead painted picture that hath the shew , shadow and name , and not the life and being of what it represents , much less by meer fiction , imagination , or bare empty computation onely , but by a real infusion , impartition and conveyance of the nature of the efficient itself into the effect , so that it is according to the measure thereof as ( truly inhaerent ) and resident in the one as in the other ; as the nature of the vine in the branches . 't is to be observ'd that when ever we are said to be made anything truly really that christ was , so when ever christ is said to be made anything , that he , really was , it is exprest mostly , if not ever by that verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when the saints are said to be the sons of god , though adopted , because they were once degenerated into another seed by sin , into that favour freely by his gift of grace , yet to be by that same grace , begotten also back again to himself from beneath , and born from above of his spirit , renewing them by a washing of regeneration , john . . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , t it . , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , iohn i. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when christ is said to be made anything for us , or any thing to us , which he had the reality of for us , and we the reality of from him respectively , and not the meer account and imputation of it onely , its express by the same verb or root , as iohn i. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . the word made flesh and dwells in us , rom i. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. made of the seed of abraham , born so , after the fl●●sh ; so gal. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , gal. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , made of a woman , made under the law , made a curse for us , for he had the reality of our miseries wo and cursednesse , but the imputation onely of our iniquit●●s , so i cor. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. he was made unto us of god , wisdom , righteousness , sanctification , redemption , not accounted so onely , for when he is said to be made sin for us , it s spoken by another verb , implying that his being made sin , is a kind of making singled off from all the rest , for where he is said be in all points like to us , sin still is expected , heb. . . heb. . . for as much as the children were partakes of flesh and blood , he took part of the same and where they were partakers of sin , he took not part with them in that , but only took part of their sorrows , and took on him to be a curse to redeem them from it , so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and thus we are here said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be made ( i.e. ) by a new birth , and not a bare naked account by the righteousness of god in christ ; and this is not so ( as t.d. dreams it is ) but far otherwise then so as christ is said to be made sin which is not ( as t.d. truly says ) by inhaerent defilement or real participation of the serpents seed , between which and him there is eternal enmity , nor of that sinful nature & image , which man was not created in and after , but contracted to himself by the fall , neither took he upon him that of angels , but he took on him the seed of abraham : but we who are of abrahams faith , and not of your meer adamical fancy , are made not computatively onely , but inhaerently righteous before god in him by a real participation of his own divine nature , so as whilst bodily in the world , to escape the pollution and corruption that 's in the world through lust , whereby , so far as partaking thereof as naturally to seek the things of gods kingdom , as ye who as yet are by nature his children , who hath b●gotten you to himself from god , who made you upright , do take care , by pleading for sins necessary continuance in you here , to uphold the fleshly glory of the devils kingdom . so that as to that ridiculous retort of t.d. to r.h. his argument , whereby from the vnion between christ and the saints , who sayes , i in them , and they in me , r.h. concludes that christ and his righteousness are in the saints ; and which t.d. refels foolishly thus , p. . t.d. viz. if that vnion makes us to be the subjects of what christ is the subject , because he is in us , then i hope it will make christ the subject of whatever we are because we are in him , and then christ is a sinner by inhaerent defilement . rep. i say what ere thou hopest i hope no such matter , and thy self , all whose hopes are yet but vain , wilt hope another matter then thou dost , when thou once comest to hope truly in christ iesus : thou hopest it seems at pre●ent , being loath to part with thy sins , that thou hast sufficient union with christ to thy iustification , while thou art the subject of nothing but sin , and without being the subject of him within thee or his righteousness either , or else it must follow that he is a sinner , and the subject of thy sin , because ( as thou hopest ) thou art in him ; but i tell thee thou hath neither part nor portion in this matter of i in them and they in me to thy iustification before god , nor ever shalt , till thou witness thy self as really born into , and by a new birth made after his righteous image , as thou falsly hopest thou art with god counted righteous for his sake before thou feel him , and his righteous image revealed , wrought , brought forth and formed in thee : and as for thy inference of sins being in him , because his saints be in him , drawn from our asserting his righteousness to be in his saints , because he is in them , it s a weak , lam● and decrepid deduction , forasmuch as first his being in them and they in him , can neither of them possibly be any sooner nor any further , then in such time and measure as the body of the sins of the ●eth is put off , by his circumcision of them to himself without hards , that they may be both ●it to dwell in him , in whom no sinner , while so , hath any inheritance or habitation , and fitted for him to dwell in , being made an holy habitation for him , by his spirit ; for if any man be in christ , he is a new creature old things are past away , all things become new ; though ye old creatures , as far as your thoughts can thrust you , and as far as your meer imagining of your selves to be in him , when ye a●e not , can let you in , who will , needs be intruding yourselves into him impudently before your time : and if any man be in christ iesus , in whom to them that are in him there is no condemnation , he must be out of the transgressions , to the least of which the condemnation is till it be condemned as well away from , as in his fl●sh , and must walk not after the flesh , but after the spirit ; and again if christ the lord come into any man as his temple , the sinner cannot abide the day of his comming , nor stand at his appearing , mal. . . . . but the refiners fire and the fullers sope passes before him , even the spirit of judgement , and burning to purge away the drosse and tin throwly and wash away all the flesh and blood , isa. . . yea if ever christ be in you , the body is dead because of sin , the spirit is life , because of righteousness ; rom. . . . and assuredly both christs being in his saints . and they in him , were neither of them intended of god to that end , that in such wise as they of righteousnesse by him , so he should be the subject of inherent sin , but both one and t'other to one and the same cleane contrary end , and purpose , ( viz. ) onely , and alone their deliverance in him from the sin in which they could never be just , or any better then abominable in his sight , but not in any that they should be saved from the sin , and he by being in them become the subject of it in their stead ; that we might be made the righteousnesse of god in him , and not he the image of satan forever in our room : so it s said , pet. . . that christ once suffered for our sins the just for the unjust , not that he might bring us to god only and not bring god to us , nor so as to own and count us holy in our sins , but to bring us to be gods children by nature and image and not to bring us to be so thought , and yet le● us like the devill , much lesse to make himselfe by sin like the devil ; and that this is the onely end , it s said , for what the law could not do in regard it was weak● through our flesh , god sending his own son in the likenesse of sinfull flesh , and for sin , condemned sin in our● fl●sh , that the righteousnesse of the law might be fulfilled in us , who walk not after the flesh ( as all sinners and no saints do ) but after the spirit , rom. . . . which is one ( viz. ) the d of the scriptures above named , i am under the examination of t. d's . admirable answers too , which that i may rid my hands on 't while t is in hand , and not need to take it in hand any more , and also , because his answer to it suits so well with what i am here saying , not mattering so much order , as to tarry till its turn comes , i shall take notice of his answer to it , and by a briefe reply , take it out of the way ; as i go : having ●aid no other of the d verse then i myself do , he grants that the verse imports the end , for which god sent christ ( viz. ) that the righteousnesse of the law might be fulfilled ( in us ) so far he is right and runs with me , but then he speedily spoils all again , adding that by that term ( in us ) is meant not in our own persons , but in christ , his righteousnesse imputed to us , as if it had been inherent in our selves : which i told him then when he uttered it ( as he relates ) p. . . was his own meaning , but not pauls , to which his yes started up against my no , and so it ended for that time . but a word or two with thee t.d. about it now : is the sense and meaning of that term ( in us ) ( not in us ) but ( in another ) not ( in our persons ) but ( in christ ? ) . i never heard so much in all my dayes , that i know of , till i had it from thee , and if thou hadst not told me so , i should never have believed it , to have been so , any more then i can believe it now thou dost tell me it is so , and that is ( to say the truth ) not at all ; for if this be so , that when the spirit of god sayes ( in us ) we must understand him as intending ( not in us ) but ( in some other ) i can't tell where we shall have him , nor how to understand him distinctly more then one can understand thee , who oft speakst on thing and thinkst another , and hast so many meanings for one scripture somtimes , that thou know it not which to take for true , nor which of them all to fix upon as the spirits , but hangst thy people up in the aire , there to hover with thy self in the clouds of darknesse , till neither thou nor they know well , either where ye are , or what ye say , nor whereof ye affirm . but surely t. d. though thou thinkst ( as all takers of gods covenant into their mouths , that hate to bereformed and cast his words behind them do ) that god is such a one as thy selfe , psal. . and goest about to make thy more talkt on , then well known unity in trinity , a trinity of vain talkers , and meer mockers of men like thy self , saying one thing & meaning oft another ( viz. ) that god offers salvation to all men but intends it onely to a few , or at least ( by thy own confession ) offers it to more then he intends it , though i believe thy words were as r.h. rehearses p. . and that twast an usuall thing with christ to speak words of a doubtfull sense : so that his meaning may be mistaken ( by none but illiterate anti-spiritists say i ) when his words are taken in the most ordinary and literall sense by ( every man ) not meaning ( every individuall ) but ( a very few ) and by ( all ) but ( some ) and that the meaning of the spirits words joh. . cannot be as the letter of them doth import [ ut prius ] p. . . and so here that by [ in us ] they all three mean not [ in our persons ] but [ in christ ] and a deal more of such hoberdipoise ; but let the father , word , and spirit , which are one , be true in their witnesse in heaven and every man a lyar , that belyes them as thou doest , for there is no such matter , as thou intimately of them , but the wayes and words of wisdome are all plain to him that understandeth pro. . and dark to none but the children of darknesse and parables to none , but such as seeing see not , therefore must not see the mysteries of the gospell , which are revealed to babes , nor his secrets which are hid to none but such as fear not him , whose secrets are with those that fear him ; blind priests and people hate the light , therefore of truth can have no sight . else how easily might they see that god , christ and the spirit , mean as they say , and do not mean by [ all ] [ but a few ] nor by [ in ] [ out ] nor here by [ in us ] [ in another ] or [ not in us ] and if this may passe for a current answer to say , god by [ yea ] means not [ yea ] but [ nay ] which he that hath his fingers in the fire , and will not pull them out at the hearing of , 't is almost pitty but he should be burnt . this is an easier way to put off truth by , then the common creephole of all the clergy , when they are cronded up into a corner [ viz. ] in aliquo sensu ita est , in alie sensu non in one sense 't is so in another not , which may serve not t.d. onely , who hath more senses to one scripture then every one hath , or he should have , though not enough to serve his turn , but also the veriest duncicall disputant in the world. yea at this rates when paul tells us that if christ be not in us , we are reprobates , and 't is christ in us , onely who is the hope of glory ; if i were minded not to admit of such a troublesome guest in my heart ; as christ is to all such sinner-like saints , as t. d's . saints are , i could easily turn him out into the stable , as they did of old that could afford him no room at all in the iune and excuse my selfe in it well enough too , by telling him in t. d's . distinction , that by [ in us ] paul means not ( in us ) but [ in christ ] and so tell christ he is ( in us ) enough to our justification ; if he be but in himself . and as this last sense or senselesse meaning of t.d. who sayes by ( in us ) is meant ( not in us ) but ( in another ) as also that the righteousnesse that is in another i.e. christ , is in a sense too ( as good as ●on-sense ) i.e. by imputation , ours and ( in us ) ( for that which is fulfilled not in our persons but in christ is according to t.d. in that scripture rom. . said to be fulfil'd ( in us ) as if it had been inherent in selves ) . i say as that distinction of t.d. concerning ( in us ) not meant ( in our persons ) but ( in christ ) and by ( in christ ) when fulfilling the righteousnesse of the law is spoken of , ministers latitude and liberty enough to our ministers , whereby to fence of and save themselves from truth , so it lends liberty and license more then enough to their priestlike people , to save themselves in their sins ; for what will many care what they do themselves , if the law be not to be fulfil'd in themselves by christ ; but 't is enough in themselves fulfil'd to their justification if in christ for them , and as well as if it were inhaerent in them : so though the priests oft preach thus viz. he that made us without our selves will not save us without our selves , yet fith they to the contradiction of themselves as oft unpreach it again , saying he that made us without our selves , will save us without our selves by anothers fulfilling the law not in us but in himselfe for us , their people will quickly cry . hang sorrow and care and of their two selfe confusing doctrines cleave to that , that 's next to them , easiest and most fitting their turns , and fall a preaching presently in their works the pleasing things their priests , who do docere faciendo faciendo , do preach both in words and deeds he that made us will save us , and shew us mercy without any goodnesse of our own . if ( in another ) ( in us ) be and ( in us ) ( in another ) wee 'l ne'er be good , good deemd are we in this , in that , ith rather . so having wiped out by the way , that blot or blurr'd answer of t.d. to my argument from rom. . . . seeing his answer to what we urge from rom. . . ( the d of the scriptures above said ) is as neer in kind to it for fillynesse , as that d verse from whence we argue is neer in truth to the d and . he here make as short a dispatch and round a reply to that too , now i am about it : arg. the law of the spirit of life in christ jesus hath made me free f●om the law of sin and death ( saith paul ) and ( say we ) the law of the spirit that is in christ and in the saints whereby , the saints are justified , is the same therefore the work of the spirit of christ in us is the cause of our justification . that place quoth t. d's p. . ( but i trow not ) is much against you for the apostle asserts the holiness of mans nature as a work of the spirit conforming it to the law to be the meritorious case of our freedome from sin and death . rep. thus far is son , and not against us , i am well assured , for 't is no lesse then the very cardinall truth we plead for against t.d. that the holynesse of our nature as a work of the spirit conforming it to the law , is the deserving cause of justification , for conformity to the law cannot deserve condemnation but non-condemnation and so ( which is all one ) justification : and if this be not enough on our side , t.d. adds more ; let me add ( quoth he ) p. . that the law of the spirit of life here spoken of , is not onely the meritorious cause of our freedom from death , but from the law of sin or obeying sin as a law : in all this i own t.d. whose answer to my argument is thus far as answerable , that is , as yeilding to it as i do desire . but then t.d. whose manner it is often to give a thing , and take a thing ( which is the devils gold ring , as i have heard children say when i was a child ) doth not in all this give the cause to us so much , but he thinks he gets it and carryes it away from us again , as much in other parts and particulars of that his parti — coloured answer : but i hope we shall fetch it all again , and no thank to him for his gifts and grants , sith what he gives he would have it all again if he could tell how , and he thinks he plucks much from us again , st by saying thus ( viz. ) mark withall ( quoth he ) though i grant you the holynesse of mans nature as a work of the spirit conforming it to the law , is the meritorious cause of our freedom from sin and death yet 't is not that which is ( in us ) but ( in christ ) the law of the spirit , and so the holynesse of mans nature i and paul 〈◊〉 of , is that ( in christ ) and not that ( in our persons . ) r. to which i reply thus . . what if i should answer t.d. that by ( in christ ) is not meant ( in christs person ) but ( in us ) 〈◊〉 eb●tl●● ●●lionis to serve him in his own kind , for when we say with p●●●● 〈◊〉 , that the righteousnesse of the law is by christ condemning sin in ou● 〈◊〉 to be fulfilled ( in us ) he answers us thus that by that term ( in us ) is not meant ( in our persons ) but ( in christ ) i might as well say retro that by ( in christ ) is not meant ( in christs person ) but ( in us ) adbomi●●m it holds well enough till t.d. recants his own odde distinction of the same kind : but as it s as unfound in itselfe as his is , so t.d. is not yet come to bear it to be done to by us , as he does to us , and therefore i must sit him to a better answer . . then i reply that thought the law of the spirit of life be in christ , yet not onely in him , or exclusively of its being in the saints , but so as that from him and from his being in them it consequently , and upon that account is in them also , for christ is not in any , as their righteousnesse , in whom his righteousnesse and the spirit of life , that is in him , is not together with him also ; yea though it will not follow as thou fainest from the saints being in christ , who were once sinners to their sins being in christ together with them ( so the reasons above said , where i told thee that men must leave their sins behind them and be by christ divested of them before they can come indeed to be in christ , to whom no sinners ( while sinners ) are or can be united ( unlesse thou wilt contradict paul who faith what concord between christ and belial ) yet if christ be in saints , who leaves nothing of his own behind him where ere he comes , his righteousnesse , holynesse , and spirit of life , is in them also . but no more of this t. d. confesses it p. . ' t is true ( quoth he ) that the same spirit is in christ and in his saints , but then he hath a double bolt for all this wherewith to shut us out from justification by that spirit , in christ as in us . . the spirit in us doth not conform us to the law fully ( quoth he ) notwitstanding your vain assertion of perfection . rep. i never said that the spirit of christ in you did conform you fully to the law , if when thou sayst ( conform us ) thou meanst your selves ; for ye are farenough from perfection , to whom it seemes a vain●assertion , a doctrine of devils , to talk of or reach it , and how should the spirit conform you to the law , who though you have it striving in you and reproving you of sin , yet do in the stiffnesse and uncircumcis'dnesse of your hearts and eares alwayes quench , grieve , resist it , refuse to be led by it and will not walk after it ; but after the flesh ? but the saints ( and such onely are all those that walk after it , and not after the flesh ) it eitheir conforms them to the law , and that fully too , or else what doth it conform them to ? partly the law and partly the lust ? partly to it selfe , and partly to the flesh ? doth it lead any into any sin , which is transgression of the law ? or onely out of all sin all such as give up to be guided by it ? if any be at all deform'd , it is because they conform to the flesh , and follow it , and stop the spirit ; but if any conform to the spirit , and follow it , it will conform them fully to the law , and not to the forms , fashions , foolish fellowships and lusts of the world , but transform them from all these by the renewing of their minds , and lead them to perfect holynesse in the fear of god , thy vain assertion to the contrary in any wise norwithstanding . thus the st . bolt is broken , but ly ( quoth he ) if the spirit did conform us to the law fully , yet were not that conformity the merit of justification . rep. oh strange ! that t.d. should deem there 's strength in this to stand out against us by , which is far weaker then the former : doth the spirit working holinesse in our natures and persons , not merit justification , which is non-condemnation ? are christ and his spirits works of lesse or worse merit in one time place and person then another ? i judg'd they had been every where , and alwayes alike , and of like good desert from the dignity of the person doing them ( or else t.d. lyes p. . of his . pamp ) and especially that their good works , which are the fulfilling of the law deserve non-condemnation ( ) justification ( or else t.d. lyes again in that same page ) but sith the spirit of life , and works of holinesse in our nature and persons conforming them fully to the law do not ( as t.d. p. . said before they did from the dignity of christs person ) deserve non-condemnation ( for their conformity to , it , or transgression of it merits one thing or other , good or evill ; and we use to say no truly good work deserves evill , more then an evill work merits good ) we will take it for granted that t.d. thinks the spirits conforming us to the law deserves condemnation , and so let it stand that all people may understand the blasphemy and folly of it . thus t.d. pulls hard to have his own again , but what he can't win by force of false position , hee l see if he can beg it back from us in these following fawning questions . i would fain know what or whether precedent holynesse in the saints merits subsequent holynesse ; or whether the exercise of what they have , is the meritorious cause of what they have not or of perfection , especially , if the law of sin intends the corruption of nature , as the law of the spirit of the life does holynesse of nature , i would be instructed how a nature in part corrupted can deserve totall freedome , and i am sure the first work of the spirit renewes our nature but in part . rep. if i should grant t.d. in the negative all he asks , as he thinks i will my negative or denying or saying n● were such answer to his questions as he desires ; but if i should say yea to all his que●yes , it dashes him down , and denyes all he would have ; and yet i must say yea to most of them if i say the truth . therefore t.d. i say yea to some and nay to some : to the st i answer yea , that precedent holynesse in the saints , merits subsequent holynesse and to the ad i answer yea , the exercise of what the saints have is a meritorious cause of what yet they have not : and sith thou askest what precedent holynesse the saints exercising of when they have it , deserves subsequent holynesse , or what they have not ? i answer all that is the fruit of the spirit in them , and the gift of god to them , whether active or passive , ( if to merit be to be worthy of a thing by right of promise at least . ) 't was given to the saints , both to believe and suffer phil. . yet they were worthy of the kingdome for which they suffered by beleiving the testimony of it , and suffering for it , thess. . 't was the gift of god by promise to such as fight and ouercome to walk with christ in white , and the gift of god to the saints , that they could sight , and by his strength overcome , yet they shall walk with me in white faith christ , for they are worthy . 't was gods gift to do his commandements , yet for all that the doing thereof deserves that they yet have not , and without the doing of which they should not enter by right , gives right to enter the citty and eat of the tree of life , rev. . . five talents , and two , and one were gods gift , yet as he that did not encrease and improve what he had merited at least the losse of it , so they that exercised the and the merited the doubling of theirs and by promise had right , using what they had , and being faithfull in few littles , to many , and to more abundance and to the joy of the lord : much more i might say , but t.d. denyes in this the doctrine of his fellow divines , who tell that the improvement of 〈◊〉 grace ( as they call it ) deserves not the gift of speciall , but the improvement of special grace deserves more of that still : so that though they deny a meritorious transition a genere ad genus , from exercising of one kind of grace ( say they ) men deserve not another kind , as he that improves riches deserves not righteousnesse : yet a desert ( say they ) there is , by the exercise of some grace of one kind , of more of the same kind , as he that is holy deserves more holynesse and he that sowes to the spirit of life , shall have life everlasting , as he that sowes to the flesh reaps a crop ( as all persons are to do suitable to their seed ) of more corruption : and if purchase may be granted to be meritorious of what is purchased , he that useth a lower ministration ( ) the office of a deacon well , purchaseth to himself ( saith paul, tim. . ) a good degree and great boldness in the faith in christ iesus , and he that will entertain holynesse , and christ when he knocks to come in , deserves to have the devill and uncleannesse driven out by him , whose work it is to destroy the works of the devill , and the very end of his comming into the world ; as till a man does , he deserves the devill should dwell in him still , as he must do , and not christ , because 〈◊〉 existens proh betalienum . and as to the last query about which t.d. would be instructed ( as i see he had need ) i say no corrupt nature deserves totall freedom , but the holy nature , which is in bondage to the corrupt nature ( which is the enmity , and to be slain , and never reconciled , for it is the devills ) that deserves to be freed from the other , that usurps over it , as esau did over iacob a while , the heir of all , and as the seed of the woman deserves to be delivered from the enslaving seed of the serpent . and as for the spirits renewing our nature but in part at 〈◊〉 that 's true but every part of that renewed nature is perfect and perfectly renewed in a measure , and not partly renewed and partly corrupted as i shewed t.d. above , every part of that , which in its nature is perfect , being truly perfect as the whole is . so having totally taken away two of t. d's . miserable mistaking answers to two of the above named scriptures , whence we disputed with him , the justification of saints by the gracious works of christ , and his spirit in them , and not those in christs person onely , it matters not much , now i am gone abroad from following the first i began upon fully to an end , if i fall upon that in tit. . . and make as quick a riddance of his gracelesse answer to that , and th●n i shall have no more to do but go to an end with that in i cor. . . which i am a little digres't from proceeding in for a while , and with that i shall make an end for altogether as to this time with t.d. about the way of our justification by the holynesse , righteouscesse , and grace of christ as inhaerent in us . our argument is much what the same , yet somwhat stronger then t.d. relates it p. . ( viz. ) that the grace of eternall life , being that grace which ver . . ( though oppos'd to the works of righteousnesse , which we work of ourselves without the spirit ) yet is the same that 's otherwise call'd washing of regeneration and the renewing of the holy spirit , it follows that we are justified by the washing of regeneration and spirit of christ within renewing us . to this t. d. saying ( in word ) i am much mistaken ( in deed ) mistakes himselfe much more in his semi-demi answering thus ( viz. ) that grace there is meant not of sanctification , but of the savour of god , which is manifest in the donation of his son to us , imputation of his righteousnesse and acceptance of us , as righteous in him . rep. what a messe of gracelesse grace is here of t. d's making , here 's grace with a witnesse , almost all manner of grace mentioned as materiall , and of moment in the matter of justification , but one , which is of so much use that all the rest are in a manner uselesse till it come in , and which makes all the rest grace so that ( to say no more then then truth ) they are no grace to us before it or without it ; and that ( viz. ) sanctification while others are included , is onely and alone excluded : poor sanctification , it s set aside , it s thrust out still from entring the lines of communication among its fellows . t. d. stands against the dore so that , if he may rule the rost , men shall be in favour with god and ( contrary to what divines commonly say , when they say , as they do all , that sanctification manifests iustification and the favour of god ) have it manifested too , in the donation of his son to them , the imputation of his righteousnesse and acceptance of them as righteous in him , and so consequently , a title to the inheritance , the kingdome , glory , and all the good that heaven affords to all eternity ; but washing regeneration , sanctification , renovation by the spirit , sanctification and sa●vation from the sins , which sins deserve the wrath , the curse and the condemnation , which salvation from the sins ( alias ) sanctification must be before any well grounded hope of escaping the codemnation , curse and wrath to come can be had , this latter sort of grace is shut out for a wrangler by the wrangling contenders against the truth , who had rather obey unrighteousnesse then it , and their lusts then him , they call their lord and saviour , and must be none of the ingredients among the company of causes of mens acceptance with god , and being accounted righeous by him , but if they be not righteous and holy , must be counted to be so , without it , and , if they be so , must be counted so by that which resides in another person , by which till it come into themselves , they are not made so , and without it , by the being of which , as in themselves and not as in another , they can onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be truly made and really become righteous and holy : and so that grace , which mainly , if not onely ( as it is a gift ) gives the proper name and nature of grace to all the other grace , may say of it self , cum nemo extru di potest itur ad me , when none ought to be excluded as not meant , where every grace god is mentioned in the gospell , i onely am left out alone , and they seek my life also . but go too t.d. thou must not have thy wicked will in this wise against gods , about this thy so bold a bolting out of this grace of sanctificatin from concomitating and concurring together with faith ( which is but a part of it , the whole series of the particular graces of which generall grace of sanctification are all fruits of the spirit ) in the matter of our being counted just in the sight of god : but as blindly buisy as thou art to tell us in a far other sense then paul does , that if it be of grace then not of works and if of works , not of grace , yet i must tell thee that albeit it be of grace , and , as paul sayes truly , rom. . and in this . tit. . not of works of righteousnesse which we work in our own wills , wisdom , and strength in obedience to the law , without christ and the spirit , who onely can conform us to it , and fulfill it in us , otherwise grace indeed is no more grace , but it being of grace , that kind of work is no more work . yet it is not so of grace as that the fruits of the spirit , sanctification , washing , renewing , and the works of christ in us are excluded , otherwise christs own works ( absit blasphemia ) are no more works , and of no such force and worth ( as thou blushest not to blaspheme so as to say they are not p. . ) as to merit justification . yea so necessarily is it of such good works as are wrought in us by christ , that otherwise grace it selfe were no more grace ; for what grace is that of being so or so , so long as we are not in truth so as we are accounted ? to be accounted justified , accounted accepted with god , and accounted his children , heirs of his kingdom , righteous , holy , saved from our sins ( which whiles they abide the wrath of god abides , and condemnation , and cursing hangs over the head of the subjects thereof ) and yet not really to be so , as none are , and as ( nemine contradicente ) without all contradiction none can know themselves to be , till sanctification , which is the evidence for heaven , and that which to us and all men shewes our title to all the foresaid priviledges and prerogatives , doth appeare upon us : i say , what grace is all this ? what salvation from sin whiles sin remaines ? what redemption from the and curse the effects of sin while sin the cause thereof rests on us unremoved ? all this faith of the favour of god is but fiction this hope of heaven , but vain , groundlesse , heartlesse , and frustraneous , this divination of t.d. a meer dream of a hungry thirsty man , that dreames he eats and drinks , but as it s said before , his soul is empty , and when he awakes , behold its another matter : oh but ( quoth t.d. the spirit of god the d person in the trinity , he does apply the righteousnesse of christ to us to our justification and so we are justified perhaps ( say you qua. what you will ) and not upon account of sanctification of us , by his work grace of in our hearts and so that phrase justified by the spirit , which ye insist so much on , con. . . may be meant of the spirits application . rep. mark reader ( for having run throw the other . i return now to the st . of the . scriptures that we urged from , and t.d. answers so lamely to ) t.d. sayes perhapse it s meant of the spirits application to which i say , 't were better for t. d's . cause if it might be so meant , but for one reason i shall shew , it may not , must not , cannot , unlesse t.d. means a nigher kind of application , then i am sure he does , for if by justified by the spirit be there meant of the spirits outward application onely or imputation of christs righteousnesse without us to our justifying before god , then the work of the spirits washing and sanctifying us also must be meant of the spirits outwa●d application only and meer imputation of the cleannesse and holinesse of christ to us for our washing and sanctification , for paul sayes the same of them , they all hang on one string and must run the same way and be taken in the same sense relating all to that one author thereof the spir●● : such ( viz. ) drunkards , effeminate , adulterers , &c. were some of you , but ye are washed , but ye are sanctified , but ye are justified by the spirit of our god : so if one ( ) justification be by externall application onely , then the other ( viz. ) our washing and sanctifying is but by such an empty application , and outward imagina●y account and imputation onely and not by the inward holy operations of the spirit . and indeed all your grace is one part of it as well as another by such outward application , and meer computation onely , and not by any true real internal application of christs righteousness , sufferings , and blood to your souls and consciences , to the purging of them from dead works to the true serving of the living god , your iustification is by imputation and outward application , your washings , regenerations , sanctifications , holinesses , renovations , and all ye have is by such a meer imputation and application of what is far off you in christs person to your selves , so that what ever he is in whom is no sin , you will deem and dream that god deems you so to be , upon nothing but a meer blind confidence and conceit , that swimmes in your brain that 't is so , when 't is no such thing , god knows : and so as one , that being at the north of scotland hungry and naked , should in his thoughts onely apply a garment or a mess of meat to himself , that 's as far off him as the south of england , must needs perish for want on 't , if it be brought and applyed no neerer to him , then so ; so you in all your applications of christ , and what ever is in him , who is as far off as heaven , whil'st you are but on earth , far enough from thence , the lord knows , must necessarily faint , famish , perish , pine and starve , till ye come to witness christ and the robes of his righteousness and holiness within your selves , and eat his flesh , and drink his blood , and put him on a little more effectually then ye do , by all your dead faith , and your eatings and drinkings of bread and wine , for all your imagined spirits , applyings and imputings , by which , that the whole world , which d●th already , may and you together with it lye still in wickedness , ye are ever dispelling and disputing all true inherent h●liness out of door● : and so being but in a meer aery talk , and vain thought of things , that ye are in them when ye are out of them , and not doers your selves of what ye hear christ hath done for you before , as an ensample , that ye should by his power in the leadings of his light and spirit do the same , ye do , but deceive your own souls : and , as both paul and iames , who both agree and we with them against you in this , do truly tell you , as righteous and religi●us as ye seem to be to your selves and each to other , all your religion is but va●n , and your hopes that ye are this and that in the account of god , that ye are iust and pure , when really ye are nothing so , will prove abortive , and as that of the hypocrite , when the lord takes away his soul , no other then the giving up the ghost : for gal. . , . if any man think himself to be something , and that he is thought of god , for that holiness which is in another without him , to be something when he is nothing , and witnesseth neither that other , nor his holiness within himself , he deceiveth himself : but let every man prove his own work , and what he doth by the spirit of christ within himself of the will of god , and then shall he have rejoycing with in himself alone or at least als● , and not in another person without him onely , and he that glorieth , will gl●●y in the lord , christ in him the hope of glory , in the lord in himself , in whom the seed of israel finds righteousnesse and strength , and salvation from the sin , is iustified and shall glory , i a. . , , , , . or not every one that commendeth himself as iustified by christ , will appear approved at last , but he whom the lord commendeth , which is no man of sin that i know of , which david himself stood condemed in , cor. , , . so having snaptasunder one of the two strings to his bow by which t. d. strove to shoot back to us that arrow and shast , which was sharp in his , and in the heart of all the enemies to justification by the spirit of grace and life within us , from cor. . . which pretended to no great strength it self , being a string made but of a meer may be , or perhaps for justified by the spirit ( if not otherwise ) may be meant ( quoth he ) of the spirits application ; i come to try the strength of his other string , which is patcht up of no better then such a poor peice of toe too , as peradventure or perhaps ; for when we say with paul in the text the saints are washed , sanctified and justified all one and the same way ( viz. ) in the name of the lord iesus and by the spirit of god and his grace and holy operations in us , t. d. who confesses he chose to out-word us ( see his epistle ) and is never to seek for something or other to say , though his aliquid is ever nihil , sayes thus . i might say that perhaps the clause should be referr'd to sanctification , which is in a more appropriate manner attributed to the spirits efficiency , as if the order of the words had been but ye are sanctifyed by the spirit of our god. rep. then it seemes justification must go look its efficient somewhere else and must have no share with washing and sanctification in the spirits holy workings in the saints : it must be in the name of god only , and the other onely by the spirit , as if the name and spirit of god were such heterogeneous matters , that what 's done by one cant be said to be done by the other , and as if paul had mistooke himself in the placing of his words , and had been by the infallible spirit misguided , misplacing of them so , that when he should have said ye are justified onely in the name of the lord , and onely wash't and sanctified by the spirit of god , confusedly crouds these effects all under one cause , and sayes ye are not onely washt and sanctified but ye are justified also in the name of the lord , and by the spirit of our god. i do not wonder thou purst in this with perhaps only , for hadst thou absolutely affirmed it for a positive truth , thou hadst of a truth lyed thy self into a very laughing stock to the lowest capacity in the country , by thy talk of so transcendently untrue a transposition . t. d. but such traspositions are not without instance in the scripture ( quoth t.d. ) as math. . . give not that which is holy to dogs nor cast ye your pearls before swine least they trample them under their feet , and turn again and rent , where turn again and rent you is joyned to the dogs ( quoth he ) for as swine ds trample under their feet , so dogs do fly upon a man and tear him down . rep. we know well enough its the property of dogs and i swine to turn and tea● , and ●rample , when pearls and holy things are held out to them , having paid pretty well for the experimentall learning of it we have , since we began to tell the pretious truth , and hold out such a holy thing as inhaerent holynesse is , to such an unholy seed as your selves are ● but i am y●t to learn that these these ill qualities of turning , tearing , trampling , do not all . jointly agree to both or either of these creatures , severally considered , yea all of them as much to one as to the other : for as dogs turn and tear , so do swine , and as swine trample under their feet what th●y tear , so do dogs , or else the scripture , which is very unlike to t. d's . scripture about it , is in this case utterly unlike it self ; for it tells us of the gentiles , which in oppsition to the children are called the dogs math. . . which are without the holy citty , or any right to enter there rev. . . . ( though in their anger & envy canina utentes facundia they grin like a dog and go round about it , psal. to whom yet the outward court of the temple externall forms , worships , observations , ordinances and name of christians is given ) that they tread or trample the holy citty under feet , rev. . . . no marveil therefore the cat winkt when both her eyes were out , and that t.d. durst not speak his mind out positively , nor point blank neither one way nor another , in answer to our argument from that scripture , cor. . . but only by perha●●es ; seeing he was so blinded by it that he saw nothing what to return directly and downrightly to it : and since he puts it off to us with no more force then perhaps it is so , or perhaps so , as he sayes 't is , though i have said much more for satisfactions sake to such as seek the truth , yet to such as seek nothing more then how they may cavill against it , and turn it off from taking hold on either their own hearts or the hearts of others , i need do no more then put it all back upon t. d. again with per-haps it is so or so ; as i say 't is against him , it being a generall generall received maxime among all schoolmen that an argument , that flyes in ones face with no more force then forte ita , requires to be no more forcibly refel'd then with forte non . yea forte ita semper sat bene solvitur per forte non . thus i have at last made a clear end with t. d. as to this matter of justification , having to the undeceiving of such as by his misty makings out of our meanings in it , have much mistaken me and the qua. as po●ish about it , shewed plainly which way we hold it , and how it is , according to the scripture , of grace and not of works ( ) our works properly and onely so call'd , and yet not of grace onely but of works also ( ) such as christ and his spirit only works only in us : which the spirit in a sense subordinate to himself , who is the master-workman , to whom onely and gods grace in freely giving us such an alsufficicent assistant to do his will the glory of all belongeth is pleas'd , also , but more sparingly , to entitle by the the term of ours isa. . so that had it been as true , as [ if t.d. and his witnesses together with him , p. . be to be credited before himself alone ] 't is false that i disputed justification in those terms of ( by our good works ) as he says p. . yet if by our works we speak of those that god , christ and the spirit work in us , it can in no wise follow from thence , any more , then it doth from all his other pite●●s premises whereby he improves himself to prove me so , that i am a rank papist , nor so much as it followes from the remaining of so many relikes of the romish who●e among our english clergy that they are still living in and loving the skirts of that , great whores sco●tations . indeed to say as t.d. doth of s.f. he hath been at rome , * he had great bills of exchange from constantinople thither [a] he witnest against the pope and cardinal there yet was not medled with , [b] he saith he is above ordinances , [c] he saith iesuits and friars are [d] sounder in doctrine then those call'd the reformed churches , he made light on 't when he was charg'd with popery before ds of pe●ple , [e] he affirm'd justification by our good works , [f] and such as doctrines are a fair inlet to the papists bag and baggage ; [g] therefore probably he complyes with the pope and cardinals , hath a pension from him , and is manifestly a rank papist , these or piball'd magpie premises and humb●● bee propositions , whereof some are true and some false , may like so many roaring megs , and thundring canons , make such a hideous rumbling noyse in a country church ( as they use to say ) as to frighten poor folck out of their senses , and force all priest-bewitcht people whether they will or no into the faith of what followes at their heels , as the conclusion they serve to usher in ( viz ) that s.f. is a fer-vent factor for the sea of rome . neverthelesse * there is no more consequence in them , though less truth , then if a man should argue thus , where the antecedent and subsequent are both true , though the one very untruly deduced from the other viz. the wheelbarrow runs rumble to rumble : therefore the clergy will never leave climbing up by lyes , till down they tumble . the second apologetical , and expostulatory exercitation . chap. i. now i return again to thee iohn owen , whom ( excepting here and there with a word or two as occasion was ) i have not visited of a long time , being by t. d. his interposings in this question about iustification , which is excentrick from all the points in which thou encountrest the quakers , so totally taken off for many pages together from any steady discourse , or any but meer cursory conference with thee , that some men , who measure others by themselves and take an account of the quakers conjunctions with them in contending for truth , by the cowardly spirits they carry in their own brests , may term it little lesse then shameful or total tergiversation in me to tarry so long from thee , and not so much as face thee all this while . and now i am come to deal with thee , i shall freely allow thee the advantage of the utmost assistance that t.ds. book against the quakers , and that of i. t. or r. b. also affords thee to help thee ( if need be ) at any dead list , where thou art a stand in the doctrines about which i have to do with thee , which though some are more eminently to be canvased between us two then the rest , which are but transiently toucht on by thee , yet are no less then the five aforesaid , viz. . the letter . . the light. . the infallible spirits present infallible guidance . . the universality or particularity of the grace of god to the sons of men . . perfection of holinesse , and cleansing from sin in this life . in all which five ( whether in the selfe same order as they are here laid down in or no , i cannot say , nor is it much matter for that ) as i am first or last to speak on , or to joyne issue in against thee , so more or lesse t.d. falls in and joyns issue with thee in them against the quakers , so directly that i see not how i can meddle with one and let the other wholly alone , but must unavoidably hold an entercourse briefly or largely ( as occasion happens ) either simul or successivè with you both , and with i. tombes and r. baxt. also , who whether they meddle in their last book with them all or not , so as to prosecute them , yet intimate themselves both in that and other of their labours to be of the same minde with you , as also most of the divines , so called , are throughout this nation . now concerning these which are the grand subjects , in reference to which all that is said of any of them by either of us , in our disputation about them , is but the praedicate ; so contrary are we ( as the case yet stands between thy self , and me ) to each other in our assertions , that very much , if not most of that which is denominated of them respectively by either of us , is as absolutely gain-said by the other ; so as whatsoever is ( as most that thou sayest at all of it is ) falsly affirmed by thee of the scripture ( the subject which , in a shallow sound of words , thou seem'st to stand for , but art seen in truth to stand against ) is utterly denyed by me ; and most of that which is most truly asserted by me , and the quakers of the light , and all the rest of fore-named doctrines , is as positively denyed by thy self , though in thy denying thereof , thou dost not more evidently contradict both the truth and us , then thy silly self , who art yet so sensless as not to see it . what testimony it is that we bear of the grace of god , the spirits guidance , perfection , and true light ( the subjects which we plead for , and thou impleadest ) will be seen when i come in all plainness to give it out , with the good grounds thereof , as at last i shall ( god willing ) howbeit not till toward the last , for as much as in the last place thy false witnesse comes out against it ; and in the mean while betake my self to the intended tryal of those things which are ( as blindly , as boldly ) bolted out by thee about the scriptures ; and to declare wherein we do , and wherein we do not , and also why it is ( where-ever we do not ) that we neither do , nor may , nor can accord at all with thee about the scripture , for not assenting to whose meer fancies about which , as infallible and undoubted truths , ( having hung up thy flag of defiance against atheists , anti-scriptural iewes , and papists , and sought up thy foolish fight also with sundry of thy fellow protestant divines , for not dancing after thy unharmonious pipe , nor singing to the same truthlesse tune with thee about the scriptures ) thou beatest up the quarters of the quakers , and unjustly quarrel●st against them , slandering them ( as fowlely , as falsly ) in a long latine piece of scholastical scrible , as slanderers of the scripture ; whom yet thou neither dost , nor canst evince to be such , unless that be to slander the scripture to say no more of it then matter of truth . now for as much as my businesse with i. o. principally , and in part also , with t.d. ( as to the scriptures ) will lie mainly these two wayes , viz. first to clear the quakers from those clouds of ignominy , wherewith they ( as all their fellow clergy-men commonly do ) seek to cover them by their lyes of them , as a people that deserve to be held accursed among all for their enmity to the scripture . secondly to recover both priests and people ( as much as may be ) from under those dark , cloudy conceptions of the scripture , which these two men being overcast with themselves , labour what they can to beget others into , as if all the worlds were for ever utterly undone , and under the losse of all saving truth , and utterly without any possible way , whereby to come to the knowledge of the will of god concerning them in order to their souls salvation from sin and wrath to come , if the outward letter or external text of the scripture be not talkt up into the throne as the onely lapis lydius ex . . sure word of god , infallible guide , trusty teacher , supream iudge , perfect rule , st●m foundation , stable standard , fixt , unerring , unalterable measure , and such like ( as i.o. states it to be ) by which all doctrines , faiths , words , writings , spirits true or false must be toucht , tried and determined , or else no man can be at any certainty , where to be , what to believe , how to walk with god , which to take for truth , and which to turn from ; i shall first plainly shew what the scriptures are , and what we mean when we talk of scriptures . . briefly take notice of some of the base , unworthy , absurd abuses and fowl aspersions and unjust accusations whereby thou i.o. ( what in thee lies ) labourest much more abundantly and abominably ( i must needs say ) then the other ( as to this point ) to render us odious to all men as despisers and deniers of them ; and then dly . addressing to the controversie it self , leave all , who shall read such animadversions as are to be made by me of thy unfound assertions about it , to judge by that light of god in their own consciences , whether themselves or we erre most beside the scripture , or most duly deserve the censure of anti-scripturists . first then i shall here give all men to understand more distinctly yet then i have hitherto done what it is that i intend , and what i would be understood as speaking of by this term ( the scripture ) which is to be so often agitated in this discourse between me and i.o. in whose book also it is so often agitated ; and what sort of those holy scriptures it is , which is the common subject of which so much is prated and predicated by i.o. that is as utterly denyed by the quakers . that we may not by hanging in universals only , which are in no wise or sense truly seen , but by considering the particulars wherein they exist , conclude of things in a tumultuous mist of confusion , as thou dost , distinguishing where thou shouldst not , and jumbling things into a kind of omnigatherum which should be more singly and severally spoken of , whose trumpet gives such an uncertain sound , that its hard to know either how or where one must prepare to the battel . the word ( scripture ) then though it be an vnivocal , nor aequivocal ( as us'd by us ) yet is it a general term , and so ambiguous and doubtful , unless it be explained by its particulars , signifying not only all other kinds of scriptures , good and bad , that ever were in the world , but also more kinds , then one , of that kind of scripture which abstractively from , and more eminently then the rest in regard of its worth , we ordinarily call the scripture , and have singled out from all the rest as our present subject . what thou meanst in thy heedlesse handiement of this more general subject i can hardly find ; thou drivest it on when thou praedicatest this and that of it in most parts of thy dispute at randome in general terms , and run'st away with the word ( scripture ) at all adventure , scribling it over again and again , the scripture is this , the scripture is that , the scripture is written by inspiration of god , the scripture is the word of god , the scripture is entire to a tittle & perfect . &c. scarcely shewing which of those three several sorts of it , which thy self hast divided it into , thou wouldst have us to understand thee as speaking of , when thou denominarest these high things of it ( viz. ) whether first thou mean the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as thou caliest them , pag. . ) ( i ) the individual and immediate manuscripts of moses , the prophets , and apostles , and such holy and honest men , as were the first pen-men of the sundry parcels of that holy scripture , which was copied cut , the copy whereof is bound up in the bulk now called the bible . or secondly , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( i ) the transcribed copies thereof , whether first immediate , that were ( at first hand ) taken out of the first copies : or secondly , those mighty mediate and far remote ones , taken by thou knowst not whom , out of thou knowst not what copies , that were handed downwards successively , not without some mixtures , mistakes , and ( for ought though knowest ) losse of much of what was at first , throw all the dark ages since then , to this of ours , by men that were some faithful , and some unfaithful , but none of them infallible ( by thy own confession , p. . ) or divinely inspired , so that it was impossible for them in any thing to mistake ; which uncertain copies ye have as your only rule and canon at this day ; in which copies neverthelesse of the originals yet remaining , that may ( secundum te i.o. according to thy concession ) be more or lesse crooked , as it happens , and ( thy self granting there are varieties among them ) cannot be all true ; thou dost not blush ( p. . ) to adde and say , that the whole scripture entire , as given out from god , is preserved without any losse , and within them all is every letter and tittle , &c. or thirdly , whether thou mean the several and various copies of the translations of those various and several transcriptions into several tongues and languages . what thou meanest ( i say ) or which of all these three sorts of writings , whether the first manuscripts only , or the transcripts and translations also ; or the two first only , and not the last , or all the three ; which are all three commonly called ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the holy scriptures , when thou praedicatest these glorious things of the scripture , thou dost not very distinctly declare , but goest on in generals , and that dolus latet in universalibus , thou art not ignorant ; so that he had need to be wise that very easily discerns thy mind , and what thou meanest : yet this i know full well , and 't is the more shame for thee if thou be ignorant of it , that some things may be said ( tru'y ) of some one of these , that cannot ( without falshood ) be affirmed of the other two , and some things of two that cannot of the third ; and he understands neither what he saith , nor whereof he affirmeth , whosoever he is , that without distinction denominates all the things , that thou dost of the scriptures , of these three sorts all alike , or of any two of them either , most of which will , upon due examination , not be found duly applicable to the very best . but whether thou intend one or two only , or all these three throughout thy book , when thou contendest for the scriptures to be now entire to a tittle , as at first giving forth , to be the light , word , power of god , and such like , is not easie to learn. if ever we hear of thee again about the scriptures , i desire thee to speak home as to these particulars , and to write thy mind more fully and plainly , and singly out , as in all places of thy book thou hast not done , but as one that hates the light ; and is not willing to come to close , pinchest in thy mind , and winkest , and twinklest , and triflest , and keepest back , as if thou wert afraid ( as no doubt thou art , though he that doth truth is not , ioh. . , . ) to look the light too fully in the face , or ( ex. s. . ) subtilius disputare , to dive too deep in thy dispuration about the light ; or , as the elephant , to drink more then needs must in fair water for fear of seeing a foul face : but veritas non quaerit a●gulos . for my part i shall deal ingnuously with thee in this , there are some things thou affirmest of the scriptures which i can grant to be true of some one of these three ( viz. of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) that are not true of either the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or translations : and there be some things to be said truly of these two , that are not true of the first , and some things of the second , that are not true of the first , nor of the third , and somewhat of the third , that 's not true of either of the other . but when thou scarest so high as to affirm the scriptures ( as thou dost ) in general , to be the same in every tittle , syllable and iota as at first , to be the word of god , the living word , the spiritual light , the power of god , and much more , as will appear when i come to reck●n up , and rank the things thou praedicatest of the scriptures in order , in order to my answering of them , i ( who shall ever put a difference between the writing of the word , and the word it self written of ) do absolutely deny all these things of all the three sorts above mentioned ; and if it stand so as that thou understandest all these three ( as thou dost of one of them at least , and that of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or transcriptions , if but of one , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or first manuscripts , being all lost and mouldred , and translations all corrupted by thy own confession ) when thou affirmest all these things of the scripture , then , so let it stand for me till i have tryed the truth of thy positions , after which i hope all that stands not upon good ground , will of it self to the ground come tumbling down . and as by the word ( scripture ) i mean ( excepting where such things only are praedicated as are peculiar only to either one , or two of them , and not to all the three ) no less then all these three sorts of scripture in the main controversie with thee , so no more then these three sorts , and these not one jot more , not yet any farther then ( quâ tales ) ( ) so far only as they are scriptures ( properly , truly , and formally so called and considered ) or * outward writings , expressions , or declarations ad extra , by letters legible to our bodily eyes , however extant upon what ever outward matter capable to receive their impression , tables of stone , walls , skin , parchment , paper , by the finger of god , or hands of men , whether writing ( the issue of which is propriissime stiled scripture ) or cutting , graving , stamping , printing , in which way , since that art came up , the scriptures are now most extant , the effect of which though most properly it be called print or scu●pture , yet ( not to be too close and curious in criticizing about cockle-shells ) shall be allowed by me ( as to our purpose ) properly enough to passe under that name of scripture . i say then 't is the letter , and not the matter ; the writings , and not the subjects , things , truths , doctrins , or word written of , that is the subject to come under consideration between us ; whatever those things are that are therein declared , though 't is like we shall not passe them by neither , without taking some useful notice of them ; yet that makes nothing to us in the state of our question , as it stands before us , nor will all thy tumultuous hudling it over in haste hinder this , nor thy shuffles about it shuffle it off , it is the declaration that thy disputation with the quakers is about , considered as abstract from what is thereby declared ; for by the scripture i intend not the law it self written , nor the gospel , nor the light , nor the faith therein exhibited to us , and held forth to be read of in the writing , for these are not the scripture , nor is the scripture any of these , but the writing it self that holds these forth ; i call no other thing the scripture then that which is truly the scripture , and that is no other thing then the scripture it self ; i call the scripture , or the outward declaration , no other things , and by no other names then those it calls it self by , † or are truly answerable to its nature , and that is no other then the scripture , a declaration of those things that were believed , and of the word , of the faith that was preached , a letter , a writing , holy scriptures , scriptures of truth , books of writing that consist , treat of , and declare in forms of plain , true , suitable and sound words , various true things , sound doctrines , by which many unsound doctrines of divels , of false prophets , priests , scribes , and pharisees , of false brethren , ungodly men that creep in , and turn the grace of god into lasciviousness ; of false apostles that brought in doctrines contrary to that at first delivered , and served their own bellies and not christ , taught for doctrines traditions of men ; of iannes and iambes that resisted the truth , of baldam , the nicolaitans , of iezebel and satan , ( which are all written of , and declared in the scriptures of truth , as well as those of god , christ , the spirit , the light and truth it self ) do stand not approved , but reproved and condemned ; useful histories of what was done , and spoken in sundry times and ages past by god and christ , and the divel himself , and men good and bad , and by balaam and his asse also ; pretious prophesies of things , viz. of good to the good , of bad to the bad ; comfortable promises to the seed that is the heir of them ; terrible threatnings to the seed of evil doers , and woes to the wicked ; profitable epistles to such as they were wrote to ; blessings , curses , prohibitions , commands ; copies of psalms and songs that were sung ; proverbs that were spoken ; letters that were written from men to men ; some by good men at the motion of the spirit of god ; some by evil men out of malice against gods servants , at the motion of the devil ; some not without the spirit , by such as lived and walked in the spirit , and were , in all they did , led by the spirit , to some private christians about some worldly affairs , as that of paul to philemon ; some by chief captains to their presidents , and by presidents to their princes about prisoners and tumults ; and divers other sorts of passages ; so that ( as written in the spirit ) the holy scriptures may be said to be homogeneous writings , all of one kind ; but in respect of the several businesses written of therein , they are at heterogeneous ( i ) a body or bulk of as various writings as any extant in the world-besides them . now by the scriptures i mean these writings that contain the matters abovesaid , and many more , and not the matters themselves therein contained ; and if thou mean by the scriptures any other things then the scriptures themselves ( as like a reed shaken with the wind , thou seemest sometimes to do , and again sometimes not to do ) and which things the scriptures are not ; or by any other things which are not the scriptures when thou speakest of them , ( viz. ) the law , word of god , the spiritual light , &c. meanest the scripture ( as sure enough thou dost well-nigh throughout thy confused discourses and disputations about it ) then thy meanings are too mean to be any otherwise at all , then meanly accounted on among any that mean honestly , and plainly , and know the truth as it is in jesus . by us when we talk of the scriptures ( to use thy own words , onely vice versa , ex. . sect. . non sanctissima ista veritas , seu materia scripturarium , sed scriptura formaliter considerata intenditur , honestly and plainly we intend that onely which is so , even the form of writing it self , and not the matter , or holy truths of the scripture , the scripturam , and not the scriptum , or at most the litteram scriptam , not the rem scriptam , not the verbum scriptum , the declaration , and not the doctrine declared , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the letter in the oldnesse of which thou art yet serving , who knowest not the newness of the spirit , the scripture or writings of the prophecy , and not the prophesie of , or contained in the writing , nor the prophetical vvord , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the writing , for so the word is there translated truly , chron. chapter . not the vvord written , or word of prophesie that came to elijah , and was sent in a writing to the king , which thou falsly sayest , p. . that hebrew word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used for in that text ; and every wise man that is truly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( especially ) in a dispute , where the question is , whether the writing of the word of god be the word of god written of , or no , while sub judice lis est , will , till the thing in debate one way or other be clearly determined , remember still to keep these two things ( as two ) asunder . so thou dost thy self while thou art well in thy wits , witness thy words above cited by myself , ex. . s. . where thou puttest a plain difference between the scripture it self formally considered , and the most holy truth or matter therein delivered ; yea when ever thou keepest in any measure of sober-mindednesse , thou keep'st these two as distinct in thy discourse , as the two sticks of iudah and ioseph , ezek. , . that were superscribed with two several superscriptions , vouchsafing to each its own proper name , and not communicating the name of either unto the other , but clearly dividing between them , so as that any one may see thou thy self dost not believe one of them to be the other , nor yet darest affirm them to be synonymous , witness , p. , . where thou makest them two , and writest of one of them all along , as in contradistinction to the other , in these terms , viz. not the doctrine in it , but the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it self , the providence of god no lesse concerned in the preservation of the writings , then the doctrine contained in them , the writing it self being the product of his counsel for the preservation of his doctrine , satan hath no lesse raged against the book , then against the truth contained in it , it was no lesse crime of old to be traditor libri then to be abnegator fidel ; which sour last assertions of thine , though they are , all four , false tales , for providence is not so much concerned to preserve the writings as the doctrine , neither is the writing so necessary for the preserving of the doctrine , that ( as thou there hintest it must ) it must needs perish if the writings perish , for it was before them , and may be without them , and will be after them ; neither thirdly is the malice of satan so much against the book called the bible , as against the doctrine of the truth , for he is willing to let hypocrites alone long enough to carry gaudy bibles under their arms , so be they serve him , and abide not in christs doctrine , nor in the truth , the scripture tells of , neither ly . is it or ever was it so great a crime to betray the book called the bible , as to deny the faith , and the word of faith therein written of , for the book is not worth a pin , as to salvation , without the faith , but the faith is sufficient thereto without the book , and was so before the book was , ( witnesse the worthies from abel to moses , whose sufficient faith is written of , heb. . ) and would be if the pope and the devils rage should reach so far as to burn all the bibles in the world ; so here 's four utter untruths asserted together , neverthelesse as they are tru-lies , yet are they true enough to serve the truth , i here summon them in proof of , viz. that thou thy self ( who countest it as bad not to be as trusty to the bible , as to the truth that 's in it , as it is to betray the truth , and deny the faith ) dost deny the book , or scripture , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or the writing to be one and the same with the faith , truth and doctrine , or the doctrine to be the writing , or that these can truly be denominated each of other . i say then that here , being more sober minded , as to thy discerning between the writing and the written verity ( though drunk enough elsewise to lay so many lyes , or at least so many tales that are not true upon the top one of another in so small a space as one short section ) thou art freely willing fairly to distinguish them into two . yea further yet , that thou dost not judge these two to be one , it may appear plainly to thy self , or any that are free to peruse the places in the . and . sections of the same first chapter , for if thou didst , then in the enjoyment of the one , thou wouldest be satisfied , as judging thy self consequently enjoying the other , but that thou art not in any wise , for howbeit , by thy own confession there , sect. . capellus grants thee , that the full enjoyment of the saving doctrine of the scripture is yet to be had , or obtained by such as look chiefly after that , let the letter be never so corrupted , yet thou art at no hand content with this , but piteously pinest after something else , which is not this saving doctrine of the scripture , nor the doctrine in it , but another thing , from which this contained doctrine is distinguished , and that is the scripture it self , which thou judged thou hast not , notwithstanding thou hast its doctrine , unless thou have the letter or writing also , and that so exactly and entire without alteration and ablation , that not a tittle of it nor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be found lacking ; these are thy words . sect. . nor is it enough to satisfie us , that the doctrines mentioned are preserved entire , every tittle and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the scripture , in that writing , see sect. , in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we have , must come under our care and consideration , and to say the truth , as thou putest a difference between the scriptures of truth , and the truth written of in the scriptures sometimes ( as i ever do ) so it is the scriptures of the truth more then the truth it self , of which they are the scriptures , that thou mostly scrawlest for in those thy scriptures for them , which yet as is said above are not more for in shews and words , then in deed , and in truth they are against them ; nor is it the most substantial parts of that bare letter that thou wranglest for so much , as for the more accidental parts thereof , viz. the points , trivial tittles and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so then it is concluded hitherto on both hands , first , by thy self , as well as ●ly . by me , that the scripture and its doctrine are not one , but two several businesses , whereof the , first viz. the scriptures are the subject matter so contended about between thee and the quakers ; as for t.d. he draws his neck out of the coller here , and after he had engaged me to discourse it publickly with him , whether the scripture were the word of god or not ? and at the dispute desiring to know what i held about it , when he heard how i on the quakers behalf declared what we meant by the scriptures , viz. the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the writing , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 viz. the letter , and that we onely deny that denomination of the word of god to that , not to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or word , or doctrine , or truth of god written therein , he gave us the question without more ado , saying thus , you cannot believe us , to be so simple ( surely ) as to affirm the scriptures in that sense the word of god , but we mean the matter contained in the writing , whether that be our rule of faith and life ? p. . of his first pamp. which subject matter or doctrine and truth contained in the writing , and testified to in it , which was before ever the writing was , and is ( as to the substance of it ) eternally and unchangeably the same , christ the word , the wisdom , righteousnesse of god , the war , truth , life , both yeaster-day to day and for ever , we never denyed to be the word , and rule , and foundation , and what ever else i.o. and the whole school of our english scribes do ignorantly and falsly say the scripture is , though we are mistaken by most as denying the holy matter it treats of so to be ; but the matter is not the writing , or the scripture , but that which is onely written o● in it , but the outward written letter or scripture , much more the book in which the writing is , which i.o. is so busy for , and for every point , written title and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , this not onely we deny to be the word of god , but all our rash reproachers of us as denying the scripture to be the word , when we come to their faces , are fain to fall in and deny the same with us also ; so christopher fowler after a long hot publick dispute at reading with e.b. and my self upon this question , whether the scripture be the word of god or no ? in which he contended a great while together it was , at last confessed openly and plainly before all the people and magistrates there present , that the scripture or writing ( and i know not what else is properly and truly the scripture but the writing ) is not the word of god ; after which concession of c.f. they would hear no longer dispute , but the quakers were driven out of doors . but i.o. standeth stifly to it , that the word of god is the proper name of the scripture , and even of every tittle and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of it , against the quakers ; for that the truth and doctrine of it , or of christ declared in it , is spiritual , powerful , saving , perfect , so that cursed will he be that adds to or detracts from it , no quaker will deny , and to fight for the perfection and integrity of that with them , is but to fight without an adversary . howbeit i.o. when thy brains ( as it were ) begin to crow ( as they often do ) like a man in a maze , thou fetchest another turn back again upon the wheel , and , as inconsiderately , as contradictorily to thy self thou blendest and confoundest these two sundry things , that were before so severed by thy very self , into one again , so that as the two sticks aforesaid became one in the prophets hands , so these two , that were sometime put asunder , and with thy own hand inscribed with different titles , are joyned , indentically intituled , denominated each of other , as synonymous , & of two that stood divided , made one individual , of two sticks become one under thy own hand , which writes of the writing , and the thing written as of one , and in its handling of them handles and feels no such matter of distinction between the scripturam , and the scriptum , the literam scriptam , and the rem , or doctrinam , or veritatem scriptam , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the scriptiunculam verbi , de verbo , and the verbum scriptum , the letter or vvriting , and the doctrine or truth written , the scripture of , or concerning the law , light , gospel , and vvord of god , and the law , light , gospel , and vvord of god it self , of which the scripture is but a true writing or declration . yea whereas in that one single section lastly cited , tr. . ch . . s. . thou makes distinction in thy sound , no lesse then four times between them , first the vvritings and the doctrine ; secondly , the writing and the doctrine ; thirdly , the book and the truth ; fourthly , the book and the faith ; in the very section immediately foregoing , viz sect. . which is as small as this , thou ( all things well considered as they stand therein ) almost if not altogether as frequently dost confound them , and write as if with thee they were as one ; for besides thy stiling the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the writing or scripture , which is well-nigh the total subject treated on in that section , by these names , viz. the prophecy of scripture , the word of prophesie , the written vvord , the word of god , and thy loud lying , in saying , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is above fifty times , in the new testament , put absolutely for the word of god , not proving it to be so put so much as once , not being able ( sure i am ) to prove it to be half so often , if thou couldest ( as i shall shew elsewhere ) prove it so to be put an hundred & fifty times , all that would prove nothing to thy chief purpose , which utter untruth , must be more talk't with in another place , thou twice there makest one of them as explanatory onely of thy mind , and of what thou meanest by the other in these terms , viz. the writing or written word , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it self or ( which [ or ] is there more conjunctive then disjunctive ) the doctrine ( as written ) also thou makest the one but explicatory of the other in many other places , ( viz. ) ep. ded. p. . tr. . ch . . s. . s. . and ex. . s. . where thou writest of them , not s●orsim as of two , but conjunctim as of one and the self same thing , thus scripturam sacram seu verbum dei scriptum , the scripture or written word of god , sacred letters ( the written word ) n● so incogiaant art thou , as not onely both to divide into two , and confound again into one these two distinct subjects , viz. the scripture , and the word of god , the writing and doctrine of christ therein declared within so small a compass , as the space of two small sections standing both together , but thou both dividest and confoundest them within the little corner of one single sentence , witnesse the last clause of the twelfth section of the first chapter of thy treatise above cited , where thou expressest thy self thus , viz. not onely the doctrine in it , but the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it self , or the doctrine ( as written ) is from god , ( ) as his word , for so thou meanest still by that term [ from god ] in the first part of which the doctrine written in the scripture , and the scripture it self are made two , in the latter the scripture & the doctrine written ( as written ) in it are made one , which is the same doctrine still , as well when considered ( as written ) as when considered ( as not written ) and is neither more nor lesse of god , whether written or not written , and under both these notions , a distinct thing from the writing evermore : if the serpent can hansomly and fairly twine himself out here from the just censure of a self confounder , let him scape scot-free this once and in this one thing for me , but if he cannot do it without dawbing and dribling , and shuffling , and shifting , and cutting , and lying against the light within , then let him hang there for me in his fetters of darknesse , till he learn to speak without confusion , for i know not how in a way of honesty to help him out , or take him down . chap. ii. having shewed what truly and properly the scripture is , and what we , the quakers , intend , and i.o. also ( if we may take him as meaning , what he mostly sayes ) by that term ( scripture ) when we deny it to be what thou contend'st it to be , and pleadest against us for , as its proper name , viz. the word of god , &c. i come next to those base abuses put upon us , and false matters charged against us ( partly ) by t.d. in his first pamphlet , but ( principally ) by thee i.o. as concerning our carriage toward the scriptures , principally in thy latine legend , wherein thou lyest more at liberty , then in thy two english pieces of emptinesse , and the more securely by how much thou seemest ( to thy self at least ) to lye more hidden , or more obscurely , out of the reach of their rebuke , whom thou reproachest in that latine language , then in the other ; insomuch that by thy own speeches we may conclude , that thy whole work ( as relating to the quakers ) which is fronted ( but fronti nulla fides ) with pro scripturis , adversus fanaticos , for the scriptures against the fanaticks ( with which new nick-name the quakers by many more besides thy self , who ( arbitrio diabolico ) wast one of the first imposers of it on that ( truly ) enlightned people , begin now to be abusively branded ) seems to be designed more to the sporting thy own and thy school-fellowes le●d spightful spirits , by playing upon the quakers in secret , in your dark divinity cels among your selves , then either to convince them to their faces of such errors as thou erroneously accusest them of , or by thy crude theological disputations , determinations ( tumultuarie sane fatis conscriptas ) as thou callest them ad lectorem , to confute the quakers plainly and openly , before plain-hearted people ; witnesse thy own saying to the like effect , which i shall first enter at , as it lies in thy little latine lecture ad lectorem . † j.o. the fanaticks ( or with thee the quak ) , who are in these dayes most notable in their errors and foolishnesse , we here principally assault . but no man could be deemed to dote so much as my self , if i aimed at the convincing of them by what i here write sith they no more understand the speech we here use , then we at any time can perceive that indigested sound of words , void of all sound sense , whereby they , when they speak , seem to noise it out , to not onely one another , but all others also , ex. . sect. . they ( the quakers ) are well nigh all unlearned , and skild no further then their mother tongue . rep the more shame for thee i.o. if the quakers be all so unlearned , and utterly unintelligent in the latine tongue ( as thou sayest ) that thou talkest therein against them ( as thou dost ) and chargest them with much more error in doctrine and evil in life , then will ever be made good against them by thy self or any of thine abetrours or stand approved for truth , while the world stands among spiritually understanding and honest minded men , when they come to be divested ( as hereby they are to be ) our of that disguise thou dressest them our in to thy iunior ieerers at christs own image , which is seen upon them . was it not enough for thee to have belved them in english , as no lesse then twice ore thou hast done in thy epistle dedicatory of thy dean-like doings to thy reverend friends the prebends and students in divinity , in that society ( so called ) of ch. church col. in oxford , where thou wast lately dean ( but quo jure divino , i yet know not ) but thou must likewise needs lay at them , and lye in ambush , and talk , and take on against them in a tongue , wherein ( if thy surmise of their vniversal ignorance of thy latine lyes had been as sound as it seemed to be ) they had been left , not onely uncapable to do ought in their own defence , in the mid'st of thy many mischievous accusations , but also insensible of any hur● at all , or of who it was that hurt them , with the sharp a●rows , which , our of the same devils bow with t.d. in his , thou shootest at randome at them , in that thy divine piece of lying divination . art thou not in this one of those ( to whom the wo is , isa. . . that seek deep to hide their counsel from the lord , whose works are in the dark , and they say who seeth us ? and who knoweth us ? whose turning of things upside down , shall be esteemed as the potters clay ? art thou not herein as like one of the old bastardly broods , viz. the amm●nites and ashdodites , zach. . . that were adversaries to the true israel of god ? yea as like samballat and tobia as ever thou canst look , who ( with the rest of their co-conspiratours against the lords work , that of the builders of ierusalem , that removed the babylonish rubbish , in order to the repairing of breaches , the restoring the pure primitive truth , the building of the old wastes out of the ruines and dejo●ations , and the laying the foundations of many generations , isa. . ) said much what to the same tune , as thou dost of the qua●ers , neh . ii. they shall not know neither see till we come in the midst among them , and slay them and cause the work to cease ? sure thou wast doubtful of being cal'd to acc●unt by the quakers , and conscious to thy self of thy own uncapablenesse to clear thy self in thy false accusations of them , as denyers , despisers , sleighters of gods word and the scriptures , &c. hadst thou floured them so sowlly , and charged them so falsly in english as thou dost in latine , and therefore ( as the laws made for english people to be ordered , judged , and tryed by , that the lawers may prey the more perfectly upon their purses , are laid up out of poor peoples sight in obscure terms , long scroles , and latine screel scrawls so ) thou chosest to be a barbarian to the quakers , ( as they seem to be to thy self , who art lost so far in hebrew , greek and latin , as not to know plain english ) and to talk to thy barbarous brotherhood against them in a language they ( as thou thoughest ) understand not , rather then to talk to them in a known tongue , about that enmity to the word of god and the scripture , which thou inditest them ( at your high commission ) as guilty of ; but very unjustly : for as blindly as thou judgest we deny , and carelesly forget the scriptures , because we , like sheep , are silent in the light , and not whining for it among the swine , that seed no higher then on the empty husk , yet we have not so foregone it , but that ( according to christs promise to such as are in the spirit , iohn . ) upon new occasion , what ever we have read in it of the mind of christ of old , is by that spirit brought a new to our remembrance ; and we know so much by it , that even it ( now the word , it speaks of , is put into their mouths , as their chiefest strength ) shall be excellently useful , and used by both the tongues , and pens of very babes and sucklings , to still and stop the mouths of such adversaries , to the truth , and the light , and the letter also as thou yet art , who talkest utterly against the scripture in thy talking for it , and pluckest it down while thou placest it above the light , and by all thy proof less provings of the letter to be ( as the light it pleads for , and thou against , onely is ) a self evidencing light and power , hast in truth proved thy own undertakings in that behalf , to be a piteous plain , self evidencing piece of great weaknesse , and greater darknesse ; and many more uses are to be made of the letter yet , as well as to beat the abusers of the scripture , and the livers besides it with their own weapon , of which more anon in its place ; and if we knew it not in the light , as we do , yet from the very letter we are well aware , that the burthen of base born moab is near to come upon him , and the night wherein a● of moab must be cut off and brought to silence , and the night wherein ki● of moab is to be cut off and brought to silence and that the time is near to come , wherein as the saints are now silent in light before him , who keepeth their feet that they do not slide , so the wicked , whose way is a slipery places in the dark , will be driven on till they fall therein , and shall at last be silent in darknesse for ever , and bowl within themselves , ( but no more so loudly against the light ) for by strength shall no man prevail , isa. . . i sam. . . nevertheless we must give you loosers leave to talk up your talk ; for whether we will or no talk ye will yet a while , so long as your tongues are your own untamed and without the bridle , which while they are , though ye seem to be religious ( as thou i.o. dost ) yet all your religion is but vain ; and though in the light we know what we know , yet from the letter ye will be thinking your think , and thrusting out your idle thoughts too , till your hands be tied , against the true light , and its friends , of which ye make a mear mocking stock among your selves , and must mightily then when ye are got ( as ye suppose ) out of sight , divining lyes together in your lattine divinity disputations ; and out of the cup of your own imaginations sit tipling to each other in the dark , when ye are drunken as drun●erds with your own wisdom as with sweet wine , and folden together as thorns , thinking no hands can touch or take you to thrust you away , then ye lye in lattin together at ease , as in a bed , wherein ye take your fill of lies , which ye love , till ye be utterly burnt with fire in your place , and be devoured as stubble fully drie , sam . , . nah. . . . nor worse nor better then thus is the case with thee i.o. and those sons of belial that wonder after thee ; nor is it any otherwise with thee and thy wondrous work , which thy own heart , head , and hands have not only wrought , and wrote , but brought forth also into the world against the quakers , wherein , but especially in that last fourfold latine fardel , which ( thy two former flim-flams falling into one with it ) flows with them in one floud of folly and falshood , wherein [ hoping ( having lap 't thy self close up in the fig leaves of that little learning and logick that is used therein ) thou liest hid out of the sight of the quakers , whose light thou deemest not large enough to lay hold on thee in that syllogistical siege thou there layest , and those logical lurking holes in which thou lyest in a learned leagure against them ] thou adventurest more securely , then thou durst well do in thy smooth english sermons , to ease thy self of thy adversaries , and avenge thee on thine enemies the quakers , whom thou art afraid of , though they are friends to thee , and to the best thats in thee , which is not of thee , more then thou art , or to it , or to thy self . and being in a tumultuous hurry , in hideous haste , in the heat of iealousie ( which makes all look yellow ) in the height of anguish , and such like mistiness together , thou runnest over hedge and ditch , not minding so much as the path of common reason , equity , honesty , or truth , not regarding any guide or rule to direct thy course by , whether the light , or the letter , or ( as to thy disputation ) the line of logick it self ; which two last thou pretendest ( at least ) to be led by , but in reality art led in a certain muddiness of minde ( reapse ) besides them all ; till ( as canis festinans caecos parit catulos ) thou hast brought forth not only a bundle of lyes and abuses of the quakers , but also a business as full of learned blindness as most that ever i have read , of no bigger bulk : howbeit thou grantest thy self a dispensation to over come all thou disputest with in thy disputation , sith ( be it never so full of groapable darkness , even to thy friends , and fellows , who will see , and say nothing , yet ) it s laid up close , and safe from the sight of thy antagonists the quakers , within the linnen shrowd of a dark language , so that the quakers cannot know any of all this : for , poor , deluded , fanatical , silly souls , they ( quoth i.o. ) no more understand that language , which we here make use of , then we ( naturalists ) can comprehend that hidden nonsensical [ alias spiritual ] sound of words , in which they seem to gape it out not only to all others , but each to other 〈◊〉 in their discourses : thus like the woodcock which having hid his head in a hole so that he seeth nobody , thereby gathers that nobody seeth him , thou judgest of such whose lives are hid from thee , with christ in god , that thy life , and lyes likewise are hid from them : yet there are some , and ( for ought thou knowest not a few ) among the quakers , who have been where thou art , though where they now are thou canst never come , but thorow a true death to thy own will , and present foolish wisdom , even that shameful death of the cross , by whom not only with that eye , where with thou seest , thou are seen , but also in that light , in which spiritual men discern both theirs , and them , by whom themselves are not discerned , thou art both seen and comprehended ; and though thou givest thy self leave to win all thou playest for , while thou playest alone by thy single self ; yet when the game begins again ( as here it doth between thee and the quakers , as it hath between thee and some of thy own fellows , who have already entered the lists and taken thee to do viz. henry stubbs of thy own society ) thou mayest possibly prove no such gainer , as yet thou goest for , among such as side with thee [ hook or crook ] in thy crooked carriage of thy crooked cause , by then both ends of thy discourses for it be brought together ; by which time it may likely appear to any save such , whose interest compels them to chuse rather to be ignorant , and let the quakers books alone , then to be taught by them , how thou and thy tracts and tractatles , trace it to and fro out of the track of all manner of truth , in the clouds of confusion , up and down , in and out , and sometimes round about , in not more illogical then atheological shifts ; yet not more blindly , then boldly , sith unseen ( as is supposed ) by those who are most neerly concerned in the cause and controversy that 's carryed on by them . but as crooked a serpent as leviathan is , yet his deceits are discryed , notwithstanding all his twinings and turnings , now this way , now that again to secure himself , yea the least of the little flock which he despiseth , is made , in the light and power of god , to spie and draw him out with a hook , yea if it be but by a sling-stone , zach. . rather then his proud reproaches shall go unreproved , the lord will subdue and bring down the uncircumcised philistine , that devotes himself to defie both the arme and armies of the living god. thou tryest i.o. to loose thy self and thy malitious hissing at the light , from the observation of its children , in thy latine laborinth , but herein thou hast lost thy self too too wofully , in another sense , in their open view , thy language is savoured to be unsavoury , and to be at best , but that of the mongril seed that speak half in that of canaan and half in the language of ashdod ; thy voice is sounded to be that of the stranger , whom none of christs sheep will ever follow ; and as smooth as it is , like that of iacob now and then , yet thy hands are felt to be the rough hands of cain and esau , wherewith thou coursly handlest thy innocent , plain , honest-hearted brother , whose sacrifice is accepted with god , as thine can never be while thy sin lyeth at the door ; thou lyest hunting abroad for blessings and benefices in the earth , and yet what thou gainest , even that way , by thy greedy gaping after it at one time , justly enough ( as from the lords hands ) for thy fighting against his israel , thou loosest at another ; but what ere thou gettest or loosest here on earth , that seed of iacob , against which thou bandest , will carry away from thee both the birth-right and the blessing of heaven , and if thou turn not to the light thou hast been hitherto , in the vanity of thy mind , a scoffer at , and lay not hold on the eternal inheritance , and life , it leads to , in a very little while [ as in love to thy soul i here advise thee to do ] thou shalt never inherit it , but death , darknesse and the curse for ever in its stead , though thou seek it carefully with thy tears . finally i.o. iu aurem tibi dicam , let me tell thee this one thing in thy ear , which yet [ as the case stands ] can hardly be whispered so secretly to thee here , but that , an hundred to one , one or other will happen to know it [ and it matters not much who doth , or if all the world know it ] besides our selves , for t is a truth told in love to the truth first , and then to thee . tractatu'us hic tuus aut illorum tractatuum pars , this thy third little treatise , or last latine piece ( call thou it what thou wilt ) is a very lake of lyes , and both it self , and thou , who art the author of it ; and whatsoever , and and whosever holds union so as to run along , or fall into fellowship with it , in any more then that little truth , that here , and there may happily be uttered in it , run all down together with it in the four channels , or exercitations of it , as it were under ground ( that the quakers may not see it , who yet do see both whence it comes , and whither it goes ) throw the hollow holes , and cavernes , throw the several sections , or lesser rivelets thereof , as throw so many dark cells , till , driving downward still throw that least , and last head-lesse and tail-lesse piece of envy against the inner light , they issue out into the outer darknesse , and at last all empty themselves headlong into the bottomlesse pit , from whence those exercitations ( for the most part ) were at first exerted , and so , downward still , into the most dismal lake of all , even the lake of fire that burns with brimstone , which is the second death , where the strong warriour , who is as ●oe , and his work , which is as a spark , and every lyar , and his lyes must lye and burn both together for ever , and not be quenched . and as for thy boasting thy self , and glorying over the quakers as learned no farther then their meer mother tongue , and such as understand not so much as the latine tongue wherein thou ( cowardly enough ) encounterest them , nor know how to speak sound sense to your understandings , in their seeming b●bble to each other , and to all others ; alas poor man , this is no newes to the quakers to see sanballats and tobias's high priests , scribes and pharisees , doctors and reverend rabbies , superstitious athenians , university philosophers , epicureans , and stoicks , who worship an unknown god , ( a generation of arteficial fools , and scholastick ignorant ones that of old encountered paul , a better schollar [ in christs school ] a wiser builder then themselves , acts . ) count gods prophets , christ and his apostles bringers of strange matters , and new doctrines to their ears , medlers beyond their line , measure , rule and call , doers and speakers of bald businesses ; no newes to hear the opposers of truth in their science ( falsly so called ) say of the quakers , what will these feeble folk do ? will they fortifie themselves ? will they sacrifice ? will they make an end in a day ? will they revive the stones out of the heaps of the rubbish that are burnt ? that which they build , if a fox go up , he shall even break down their stone wall , neh. . , . oh thou seer ( that confessest thou wast neither bred nor born a prophet , but an herdsman ) com'st thou to prophesie at bethel ? at the kings chappel ? away hence to thy own countrey , eat bread and prophesie there ; if thou wilt prophesie , but come not here dropping thy word , thou art not a fit man to minister here , the land will not bear thy words , amos . whence hath this man these things he pretends too , this boldness to teach us , having never learn't at our schooles , being never brought up at our nurseries of learning and religion ? and such like . but miserably wretched , and deluded men that ye are , ye little consider ( though the old priests and scribes , as bad as they were , took knowledge of such a thing in peter and iohn , acts . ) that as outwardly unlearned and ignorant men , as the quakers seem to you to be , yet they have been with iesus , from whom they have learned that , by looking to him in his own light , which all your meer sublunary literature can never lead you into the knowledge of , even that hidden wisdom of god in a mystery , which the princes of this world are not acquainted with , that crosse of christ , the wisdom , power , righteousnesse , image and glory of god , which is foolishnesse to them that p●rish : ye glory in your fencer-like faculties of disputing in form , and mood , and figure over the quakers , as a sort of rusticks and russet-coats , disorderly disputers , unruly and vain talkers , because they are not regulated , as your own blinded people are in all things ( implicitly ) by the rules and wordly rudiments of you renowned rabbies , but ye forget that the lord hath rejected the scribe and disputer of this world , and will confound , and make foolish , and bring to nought all his strong , and wise , and mighty matters ( that are ) by the weak , foolish , base , abject , contemptible things ( that are not ) and by stammerring lips , and another tongue , then they wot of , and by precept upon precept , line upon line , here a little and there a little make the drunkard of ephraim stagger , and stumble , and go backward and fall , and be broken , and snared , and taken ; and weary these vain , wise wild-asses out of their academical niceties and punctilio's out of their accute astutenesse , and astute accutenesse out of their witty wiles , and wicked wrestlings against the truth by a foolish nation , that are even as no people in their eyes . ye tell the world that these people know not the law , and are accursed ( as your fore-fathers did , saying , do you see any of the rulers of the pharisees believe as they do ? ) they are un'earned and unstable , a giddy headed people that wrest the scriptures to their own destruction ; but ye heed not how christ tells the scribes , that were as well skilled in searching into the scripture as your selves , that they erred , and knew not the scriptures , nor the power of god ; and how even ignorant and unlearned peter himself ( as to that science of yours ( falsely so called ) or wisdome of the flesh , which is ever enmity against god , and is never subject to his law , nor can be ) speaks of another kind of un'earn'd , and unstable ones , then those ye count so ( who are a thousand fold more ( spiritually ) discerning then your selves ) that being out of the light and spirit , in which paul and holy men gave them forth , wrest both pauls epistles , that are hard to be understood by the learned'st of our letter-lauders , and also other scriptures to their own ruine . the quakers preach christ his light and crosse , the power of god , the wisdom of god to the iew ( outwardly ) a stumbling block and foolishnesse to the greek ; the quakers know not the originals , ( say they ) how can they expound and open scriptures ? they know not the language we here use ( quoth i.o. ) whose lyes are most in latine against the quakers , who busies himself about the back-side of the book , and tangles and turmoyls himself in tedious tattle about the external text , about the integrity of the hebrew & the greek ; but ye ( say i ) know not what is talked of in that text it self ye so much talk of , when it tells of a time , wherein the eyes of all israel , as of one man , shall be toward the lord , who will bend judah for himself , and fill the bow with ephraim , and raise up the sons of sion against the sons of greece , and make them as the sword of a mighty man in his hand ; yea , who so blind about the scripture it self , as well as about the things therein written , as the great scripture searching scribes , and scholastick scriblers thereupon ? who come not at all to christ himself , whom the scriptures testifie of , that they might have light and life ; who never at any time hear either his , or the fathers voice , or see his shape ; so far are they from coming forth into his likenesse or image , which ( in their own imaginations ) these spiritual men of god ( so called ) pretend to appear in more then any others . now as to the many frivoulous flouting phrases , and new fangled nick-names , wherewith thou , who bearest christs name , more then his nature ( like the old heathen enemies to the truth ) dost cover its true christian friends , as it were with wild beasts-skins , that looking on them under that likenesse , name , and notion of deceivers , destroyers , lyars , hypocrites , horrid , cursed , diabolical blasphemers , the dogs of your flocks may be hereby encouraged and set on to run the more greedily on to tear and worry them : these will all reflect upon thy self the envious exerter of them , and lye with no little load , like a talent of lead , upon thy conscience , and sink thee down , among the rest of the uncircumcised in lips , into sore condemnation , when thou awakest to behold him , who now cometh in myriads of his saints , to convince and iudge all ungodly sinners for all the hard speeches they have ungodly spoken against him in his saints , and servants , whose righteousness is of the lord , and whose heritage it is to condemne every false , blasphemous and unruly tongue , that ( as thine doth ) riseth up in judgement against them . and as for us , the reproach of christ , is greater riches to us then the treasures of england , which ye are glorying in , and gaping after ; nevertheless i shall here have a few words with thee about some few of them , as well as about the lyes , that under them thou rellest of us . thou ventest thy venome against us under those two ( now vulgar ) names of quakers and fanaticks , on this wise ; * j. o. the second part of the question concerning the proper name of the scripture , relates to our fanaticks , who from that trembling wherewith they fain themselves to be shaken in their holy services , or rather the power of that evil spirit , by which in very deed they are shaken , are commonly called quakers . reply : as for that holy duty it self of quaking and trembling at the word of god , which as blind a guide and bruit a beast as thou art in speaking evil of what thou knowest , as also of what thou knowest not , thou both ownest and acknowledgest the holy men of god , were taken with of old , when moved to utter his word as it came to them ( witness thy own words , pag. . viz. the coming of the word to them , filled them with dread and reverence of god , hab. . . and also greatly affected even their outward man , though we dare not be so desperate as to damne it all for diabolical , as thou dost , in these dayes , in which god hath his prophets , and his people , as well as then ; yet we own it ( as thou in word dost ) and ( indeed as they did , isa. . . ) and are ( as they by their brethren ) hated and cast out by you our brother christians ( in name ) for so doing ; which meer fleshly brotherhood , who hate us , and cast out our name as evil for his names sake , shall be ashamed for it before him that appears to our joy ; and when ierusalem hath first drunk her part [ as she is now a doing ] ye shall drink the dregs of the cup of trembling with the devils [ whose portion trembling is , for all ye believe the history as they also do ] and wring them out together with all the wicked of the earth . and as we own the thing , so [ saving all your ironical tauntings of us therewith , which we deny , as that , which ye even of god must be denied for ] we own the name , when used in his fear , as that , which is both arbitrio & iure divine , imposed by god himself , as their proper right , on his own people , whom himself from that holy qualification of trembling at his word , even thereby , as by a peculiar character , denominates , isa. . . and distinguishes from all other people , that are found quaking and trembling mostly at the word of man , whom his saints have ceased from , whose breath is in his nostrils ; so that if the word of man , earthly powers , princes , parliaments go forth for such or such a kind of christianity , religion , worship , order , or form of ecclesiastical doctrine , or discipline , they all , priests and people , and the nations that fear not god by whole-sale strait stand stupified quaking , and trembling , and fall down worshipping , for fear of the furnace ( the quakers at gods word only excepted ) whatever golden image the king of babilon pleases to set up , and impose on them to how down to : as to name and thing then we own that of quaking and trembling , but dare not like thy self , who ownest , and yet defamest it , corrupt our selves in what we know ; nec tutum est ludere cum sacris , neither is it a safe matter for such a high professor , as thou i.o. goest for , to jeast and fleere so as thou dost , about such holy matters as quaking and trembling at the word of god , which thou must come to know nearer home , then ever yet , when that word nigh in the heart , thou so sowlely fallest on , comes once to be felt in thee as an hammer breaking thy rocky heart to pieces , and to flame forth in thee as a fire , and a spirit of burning under the pot , whose filthy scum boyls in it against the truth , and is not yet purged away ; when thou comest to know moses , of whom thou pratest so much , a little better then yet thou dost , thou shalt say , i exceedingly fear and quake ( ass●re they self ) as well as he , with whom thou must tremble on mount sinai , heb. . , , , , , , &c. at that voice of the trumpet , and that terrour of the lord , and that blacknesse , and darknesse , and tempest , which attends it , before thou come near mount sion , and to rest in the hill thereof , as much as in an empty sound of words thou art mounting up thither afore thy time . i.o. but this dread and terrour ( which satan strove to imitate in his filthy tripodes and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) was peculiar to the old testament , and belonged to the paedogogy thereof ; the spirit in the declaration of the new testament gave out his mind and will in a way of more liberty and glory , the manner of it related more to that glorious liberty in fellowship and communion with the father , whereunto believers had then an accesse provided them by jesus christ. rep. that the devil may , and doth strive to imitate the things of god , i deny not ; yea , there 's scarse any outward appearance or form that the power of god puts it self forth in , but the power of the evil one in man strives ( apishly ) to imitate and make the meer likenesse and image of it ; but these images and imitations are made among the magicians and wisemen of egypt , who are gone out from gods counsel , the light and power of god in the conscience , into the meer imaginations of their own vain minds and foolish hearts , leaning to their own benighted understandings ; but not among these who leaving their own wisdom learn only at the lips of christ , who leads even fools that love him , into the substance it self , and that wisdom which makes wise to salvation . 't is true that as iannes and iambres withstood moses by imitating what he did by the finger of god , and acting outwardly so as he , as far as they could , till they were forced to confesse they could now ( fainedly ) follow no further , and in a seeming shew did the same by their enchantments . so 't is now , the saints pray , so do the sinners ; the saints fast , so do the sinners ; the saints ; preach of a gospel , a kingdom to come , so do the serpents ; the saints meet , so do the hypocrites ; the saints worship , so do the idolaters ; the saints in the power and spirit of god professe to be godly and holy , so do the zealous sorceters in words , who bewitch the people that they cannot believe and obey the truth , and their several seduced societies which have ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the form of godlinesse , denying the power thereof , &c. and as it is true , that as the quakers tremble at gods word , so that the power of gods voice , which shaketh the cedars of lebanon ( when heard ) as well as the lower shrubs , of●●times greatly affecteth the outward man ; so the devil may cause some of his deluded ones to seem only to do the like : but what of all this ? scillicet , because there is something done in deceit , therefore nothing now done in truth ; some quaking is of the devil , therefore none of god himself . this is the sum of i. o's sayings of all the quakers in grosse ; if not , learn henceforth i.o. to take forth the prelious from the vile ( as gods prophets do , who are as his mouth , ier. ) and not to jumble these together in one as hitherto thou hast done ; till then , i tell thee from the quakers , so called , that faining and being driven by the devil , thou fatherest on us , we are far from , and deny it as one of the many lyes the devil drives thee to defame us with , who are in the truth , which the devil abode not in , whose works , with himself and his lyes , and that deceit which is of him , and dwells in thee , we deny and defie also for ever . and now whereas thou talkest of only liberty , and glory , and fellowship with the father in these dayes of the new testament , and such quaking , trembling , terrour , dread , &c. as greatly affects the outward man , as a matter belonging to them of old , only to the iewish paedagogy , &c. as if the word must come to you now in a smoother manner , then to gods servants and prophets heretofore . herein thou talkest as if the time of all such trouble , terrour , dread , and trembling at hearing of the word of god , as usually affected the outward man , and was in the prophets , was all perfectly past , and men should see no more of that in the world among the servants of the lord from that time , and forward , wherein christ after the flesh was outwardly incarnated , crucified . and risen again from the dead ; and all the appearances of the lord to his apostles , prophets , messengers , ministers and servants , whom he sends forth on his errand into the world now a dayes , are only in liberty & glory ; dreaming pleasantly in thy dark mind of ease , rest , peace and familiarity with the dreadful god before thy time , damning down the rough , severe , troublesome , terrible , trembling spirit , doctrine , and ministry of the quakers , to thee ward , and thy serpentine generation of vipers , that would fain flee the wrong way , when ye are warned thereof , from the newes of a wrath yet to come , to your lifelesse formes , and fig-leaves , and false biding-places , sandy sickle foundations , literal lurking-holes , fained pretences , bare bible bulwarls , selfish fastings , prayers , praisings , preachings , misty , empty , pithlesse and poor professions , as a doctrine of devils , as a ministration wherein either fictitiously , or rather really they are acted , & surpriz'd by the devil with trembling in their holy services , ex. s.i. as they said of iohn that came fasting and reproving . iudging and threatning , laying an axe to the root of their fair leafy tree , and flourishing formal prosessings of the old prophets words , and writings , and pretences to abraham as his children , and moses as his disciples , and the scripture as the scribes and openers of it ; and telling of wrath to come upon them , and unquenchable fire to burn them up as chass , & this man hath a devil , away with him , give us a ministry that will speak comfortably to ierusalem , seers that will see better things for sion , that shall answer the messengers of the nations , that enquire of them , the lord hath founded sion , 't is babylon that is to be confounded ; o ye quakers , ye seers flee ye far away hence to rome , to papists , iesuites , iewes , turks , heathens , ( among whom many quakers have been , but few or none of our chimney-corner church-men that i know of ) but come not hence with your plumb-line , thundring words of iudgement laid to the line , and righteousnesse to the plummet , and laying waste the high places of israel , and the sanctuaries of israel with the sword of the lord ; this our land of israel ought not to bear these words : 't is disturbance , tumultuousnesse , and conspiracy against the pious magistracy , and the godly ministry in the midst of it : prophesie no more such rough things at bethel , they are not right things here , prophesie to us placentia , prophesie smooth things [ alias deceits ] we are the preists of bethel , the house of god. amos . , &c. we are the ministry of the reformed churches , we are the well heads and feed at the fountains , from whence souls draw all their refreshment ; we are the doctors , deans , principals , provosts , presidents , wardens , masters of magdalene , christ-church , iesus , trinity , emmanuel , and such like christian colledges and halls , the religious nursing fathers to the nursing mothers themselves that are [ alias ought to be ] the very nurseries of learning and true religion : if ye come to us with a word from the lord , come not in your wonted trembling postures , and obstreperous horrible vociferation , wherewith ye dreadfully found it out throw our streets , cities , and temples , know the lord , * as if we were without god in the world ; prophesie no more ye fanaticks to us in your pretended movings by the spirit , if ye do , ye must bear and take the shame of the stocks , or the cage , or the whipping-post , and a passe to the place from whence ye came , or the pulling off your robe with the garment , or the stopping of your mouth with stones , and the pumps , and mire , and dirt , or such like , mic. . , , . but vers . . if a man walk in a spirit of falshood , do lye , & will prophesie to us of wine & strong drink , ease , pleasure , peace with god in our sins , impossibility of being purged from them till we die ; and of salvation and iustification of us ( by the example of david ) while under the guilt of murder and adultery , and of profits and preferments , and more maintenance for a godly ministry , that suppose gain to be godliness , let him come , he is a gospel minister , he shall even be the prophet among our present seers , & gain-getting priests , false prophets , and foolish people . but alas poor man , thou art far enough from the new testament or covenant yet , which is a gospel , a covenant of light , which thou art so far from , that thou fightest against it ; thou thinkest thy judgement is over past , and the old testament a thing that thou hast learned long ago ; but thou art not come so near to the sharp paedagogy of it yet as thou must do , so far art thou from the glorious liberties of the new ; thy words are true enough , the word under the new comes in a way of more liberty and glory , but it s no newes to hear high priests speak truths which themselves know not ; thou art at best but an old testament talker of the new , and one that 's come truly yet under the tuition of neither ; as for the new , the word comes under it in liberty and glory , but not to old testament spirits , doctors , scribes , and pharisees , they see not clearly so much as moses face , much lesse the glory of god in the face of iesus : condemnation is yet to come from christ himself first to such as these , as well as from moses & iohn , yea christ hims●lf ( whose friendliness to publicans and sinners , as a physitian , was found fault with by such friday fasting pharisees as this age is filled with , as much as iohns austerenesse ) was found in iohns rough spirit , camels hair garment , and astonishing appearance to them , that went about to murder him in his inward ministry and testimony within themselves ; and then they said of him too , as of iohn , thou hast a devil , ioh . ah poor nursing fathers and mothers , vniversally erring , vniversity seducers , poor seducing priests , and seduced people ! notwithstanding the glorious liberty and gloriousnesse of the gospel times , that ye are glorying in ( in a dream ) that ye live under , ye must most assuredly find a condemning , iudging , terrifying fiery flaming law laying hold on your consciences , and finding you out , and the sword of the lord entering into your souls , and the wrath of the lord rending your very heart-strings a sunder , and dread , terrour , and trembling surprizing you hypocritical sinners in sion , before ever ye shall come to know the true liberty or glory of the gospel , which is the image and glory of god , brought forth among you ; yea , judgement is already laid to the line , and rigeteousnesse to the plummet , and the hail is falling , that will sweep away your refuges of lyes , and the storm , that will overflow your hiding places , and break and disinable your supposed covenant and agreement with death and hell , as if your judgement were passed over by the lord , and none of that could come near you ; and your bed will be found too short for you to rest on , and your covering too narrow to wrap your selves in from the wrath of god , the power of whose wrathful displeasure shall make your mount sier shake like sinai , before ever ye come near to the sight of that glorious rest that the saints ly down in on mount sion . now as to that other new found phrase of fanaticks ; these fanaticks , the fanaticks of this time , our fanaticks fanatical quakers , fanatical souls , fanatical enthusiasts , fanatical knaves , fanatical anti-scripturists ; and * under which ever and anon , yea so oft , that i may say , ferè numquam non , thou soamest out ( as thy fellows do ) that froth , filth , and falshood , which floats about in thy foolish vain spirit against the quakers in gross , as against a furious , distracted , mad , crack-brain'd kind of men , that ( for so those terms signifie , as used by thee ) pretend to visions , revelations , illuminations , inspirations , the spirit of prophesie , and such like ; but are ( reapse ) stark besides themselves , and bereft of their very wits and senses . as new a nick-name as 't is to this age , this is no other , then what all the prophets of god were entertained with in the several seasons , wherein god sent them out , by the many false prophets that were coaetaneous with them , and therefore nibil novi , no new business to such as are not blind ; he is but meanly skill'd in the scriptures who hath not yet learn'd from thence , that the prophets by whom god spake , and by whose ministry be mu●tiplied visions , and used similitudes , as hos. . ▪ were ever counted deceivers , as the snare of a fowler in all their wayes , that the true prophet was a fool , and the spiritual man , or man of the spirit , mad , hos. . , . and hatred alwayes in the house of his god ; and that gods people ( by meer profession ) rose up against them , as against an enemy , and ( as now the same generation of holy hypocrites do , both in old england and in new ) pull'd off their robes , and their garments from them ( to whip and scourge them sometimes , as seditious and disturbers ) that passe by securely , as men most averse from war , and streitned the spirit of the lord , saying , prophesie not so such as prophesied in his name and power , and putting them to shame if they did ; when if a man would walk in the wind of his own invention , and lye falsly , and prophesie to them of ●elly ohear , of wine , and of strong drink , even he should be own'd a prophet by that people , mic . , , , . and that ioshua the true high priest and his fellows , even christ and the children that god had given him , were as men wondred at , were set as signes to be spoken against , even to the house of jacob , from whom he hid his face , and their peepers and mutterers out of their own familiar spirits , to the unbelieving despisers , that wonder and perish , for signes and for wonders from the lord of host that dwelleth in mount sion , isa. . , . zach. . . luke . . act. . , . yea , i. o. hath read his own book ore but by the halves if he do not learn this lesson out of it himself , pag. , , , . that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or divinely inspired men , whose doctrine was to have been received as from god , who sent them , and in whose name they spake , though but herdsmen , and of mean occupation , were yet generally rejected upon innumerable prejudices that attended the truth they spake arising from the personal infirmities , and supposed interests of them that delivered it ; as amos . ier. . , . ioh . . act. . . and that what with these things , and chiefly the peoples being so eminently perplexed with false prophets , both as to their number and subtilty , that they could not well discern aright between gods word and that which was only pretended so to be , and so became guilty of unbelief and rebellion against god , not submitting to what they spake in his name , it alwayes so sell out that scarce any prophet that spake in the name of god , had any approbation from the church ( of dead stones ) in whose dayes he spake , matth. . . . . to ▪ act. . . thus much i.o. may learn from these words , which are mostly his own , that it was alwayes so heretofore , and how it should be otherwise in the latter dayes of this formal christian church called christendom , then he sayes it was in the latter daves of that iewish church , both which national churches say they are iewes , christians , and are not , but lye , and are the synagogue of satan , he cannot see , that will not purposely look besides the scripture , which intimates to us a necessity of the innumerable multitude of false prophets , by which people must be perplexed from submitting to the testimony of gods true ones , that now go forth from him to witnesse against the other , since it sayes so long since as it was written , that many antichrists and false prophets were even then already gone forth into the world , which as , according to christs praediction , matth. . they then ( and not now , as our seers say , who can't see themselves for their selves ) began to breed , so have ever since spawn'd themselves by a successive generation of the same seed of blind seers , that suppose gain to be godliness , in such myriads over the face of the whole earth , that he must even go out of the christian world at least , that will find any clean corner where these croaking frogs , and unclean creatures , and costly caterpillars are not crawling . so then by reason of the many subtilties and serpentine insinuations of the many false prophets in these last dayes of the gentile christian church ( in name , not nature ) 't is now as 't was ever of old , that the true prophets of the lord , whom he reproves the other by , are look'd on as fanaticks , fools and mad bare brain'd fellows , king . . acts . . that do but pretend and seem to themselves to see that they do not , and make themselves prophets , and are often punish'd , as a sort of giddy guides , with stocks , stones , prisons , and such kind of rough reproofs , as the false prophets , the shemaiahs or dreamers , which speak lying words in the lords name , which he commanded them not , suggest as most surable for the true seers , to the officers , whether vice chancellors , chief priests , or earthly powers , that are ( as the beast that bears her is ) the subordinate willing executioners of the clergy , or whores wicked will , as in the letter , from the false prophet , to the chief priest against ieremiah of old , ierem. . , . the lord hath made thee priest in the stead of jehojadah the priest , that ye should be officers in the house of the lord , for every one that is mad , and maketh himself a prophet , that thou shouldest put him in prison , and in the stocks : now therefore why hast thou not reproved jeremiah of anathoth , which maketh himself a prophet unto you ? &c. as for thee i.o. i know not but that thou art the first that fastned that wonted foul name of fanaticks upon the people of god , called quakers , in these dayes , by thy fighting against them , and falsly accusing them , as fit for their frauds to be punished with prisons , &c. under that name so over-frequently used by thee ; for which it hath since ( justly enough as from god ) befallen thee and thy fellow mongril presbyter-independents ( haman-like , who hang'd high upon the gallowes of his own preparing ) to be whipt smartingly by that more smoakie sort of locusts , who are in the dark behind thee , with this rod of thy own gathering ; for now by that papal , prelatical-priesthood , that hope ( but their hopes are as-thine , and those of all hypocrites are , as the giving up of the ghost ) to over-top you all , even ye and all sectaries that side not , or ride not with them back to rome , are branded by that same name fanaticks of thy own faining , which is become the common charesteristical of all , but either romish or canterburian catholicks ; and thou thy self perhaps under that notion of a sectary , and account of a fanatick , as well as on some others , art justly ( iudas-like , who betrayed the truth ) detruded down from that place of preheminence , from whence thou prated'st out that preheminent piece of latine lack-light against the quakers , and according to psal. . , , , . psal. . . to . acts . . deprived of thy dainty deanery , and that thy bishoprick , or episcopal office hath another taken ; and like as he did doeg ( the edomite ) psal. . , to ult . for the same dog-like doings , viz. devising mischiefs , being as a sharp razor to the saints , deceitful workings , loving evil , lying , devouring words more then good , and rather then to speak righteously , hath god pluck'd thee away from thy prerogatives in that ( falsly called ) christs-church , thou was 't lately head of ; and if yet thou shalt ( as perhaps thou mayest ) happen ever to recover to any such outward lordlinesse again over christs true church , and gods own heritage , who ( come summer heat , or winter storms ) will still stand green as an olive in the house of god ; yet for all thy now flouting at them as fanaticks , and their way as madnesse , that day cometh on a pace spoken of , wisd. . . & . . ad sinem , wherein those righteous ones thou wrongest shall stand out in great boldnesse before the faces of all such as thee , who hast afflicted them , and made no account of their labours , and ye shall be amazed at the strangenesse of their salvation , so far beyond all ye looked for , then repenting and groaning for anguish of spirit shall ye say within your selves , this is he whom we had in derision , and as a proverb of reproach ; we fools cou● his life madnesse , and his end without honour : how is he numbred among the children of god , and his lot is among the saints ? therefore have we erred from the way of truth , and the light of righteousnesse hath not shinned to us , and the sun of righteousnesse rose upon us ; we wearied our selves in the way of wickednesse and destruction , gone throw desarts where there lay no way , but as for the way of the lord we have not known it : what hath pride profited us ? and what hath riches with all our vaunting brought us ? &c. thus far as to those two archi-pseudo-prophetical titles by thee i.o. tauntingly imposed upon the people , who at this day hear the word of the lord and tremble at his word , viz. that of quaking fanaticks , or in thy sensu composito , fanatical quakers . now i come to those thy many other misprisions , and mis-representations of us under the terms of poor , deluded , foolish , knaves , crowes , vagrant rogues , or vagabonds , enthusiasts , locusts , and such like . j.o. the clamour of every fanatical knave , ex. . s. . epist. pag. . poor , deluded , fanatical souls amongst us called quakers , for the instruction of the younger sort , against whose abominations i have subjoyned the theses in the close of the other treatises . * to the instruction of the younger schollers , who , intending the accutenesse of their wit to the study of the holy letters or scriptures , have neither list nor leasure to follow these crows ( the quakers ) up and down , pelting at them with tiles and dirt , this shew of new fanaticism refuted , which swarms even every where , accompanied with strange devils , is dedicated , so ex. . s. . . fanatical enthusiasts for their enthusiams ; so ex. . s. . locustas hasce cum primum ex sumo purei prodierint , these locusts ( the quakers ) when they came first out of the smoak of the pit ; so ex. . s. . errones , vagrant rogues , or vagabonds . reply . thy iudgement of us in general , which is mearly that of mans-day , which is the night , and a very small matter to us , will prove a matter of moment , that will fall heavy on thy self at last , when the judgement of god , which we know is according to truth , and is against thee , comes upon thee , and all thy iudgement before thy time , and evil speakings of whom , and what thou utterly know'st not ; and as for us , if we judge thee again for many of the same things of which we are judged by thee , yet our judgement is just and true , and not our of its due time and place , and will stand ore thy head for ever , being passed in the light , and day , and spirit of god , in which the saints are to judge the world , and the spiritual man discerns the animal man and his matters , but is not discerned by him : but as to this of knave , it savouring much of that billingsgate rhetorick ( which t.d. hath so much of , who called l.h. at his own door in douer — he knows what , and ye sayes he is not able to match g.w. at it ) to render reviling for reviling terms i shall forbear , and be silent here , giving i o. my goliah-like 〈◊〉 , ( who conflatis naribus inflans , sets the saints so much at his heels , and ( to use his own words ) gigantaeo quodam fastu e'atus , like some son of anak looks on them as grashoppers , disgracing and disdaining the whole kind or species of the quakers , what he is able , sometimes as poor , deluded , foolish , and yet sometimes again as more knave , then fool ) leave to overcome me herein ; for though i can truly say ( having been at the popes palace which stands in monte caballino ) that fonte labra prolui caballino ; yet haud unquam me prophetam somniasse tam altum memini , ut repentè sic rabula prodirem . reply . thou talkest much here , and at the front and sag-end also of thy english epistle in commendation of thy iunior students valuing and studying the holy scriptures more then any thou knowest , and of their bending the best of their wits that way ; how ye value the scriptures wee 'l see by and by , but till ye study the light and spirit more then ye do , which the letter came from , as ye are yet at best , so at best ye will become but obtusè acuti homunciones , sharp-witted men after your own blunt fashion , who in truth are as sharp-sighted in the mystery of the holy scriptures , as a very mole is into a milstone . behold o thou academical student in divinity , who callest the quakers anti-scripturists , thou art call'd the scripturist , the text-man , the opener-of that book called the bible , which is a book as much sealed to thy supposed learned self , as to the unlearnedst sort of men in the world , that can but barely read it , and thou art restlesse in wrestling against the light , and restest in the dead letter of that law , which is light and life , and makest thy boast of god , as the man that knowest his will , and tryest out the things that are most excellent , being instructed no higher then so thy self , and taking on thee to instruct all out of that life-less letter , which is all thy law , ( and yet much more then thou livest by ) and art confident that thou thy self art a guide of the blind , a light of them , which are in darknesse , an instructer of the foolish , poor , deluded quakers , a teacher of babes , which hast a form of formal knowledge , and of external truth , as it is in that meer letter of the law , but thou ( being enmity to the light the quakers live in ) art rather a rash reprover of the things that are most excellent , a blind guide , a dark lanthorne , an ignis fatuus , a fleshly , foolish , instructer , an untaught teacher , that must yet come to be taught out of the mouths of babes and sucklings , out of which the lord is now ordaining strength that shall stop the lyars mouth , and still the stout enemy and avenger ; and from the stammering lips that thou standest amazed and astonished at , as uttering non-sence ( in thy non-sensical nodel ) shalt thou stoop to learn the soul-saving truth , or else be left to perish in thy envious enmity against it in thy damnable darknesse , in thy wilful blindnesse , obstinate unbelief , and unparallel'd ignorance of it for ever , as the pharisaical iew was , whose case this was before thee , rom. . . to the end ; and though thou teachest others , yet till thou teach thy self , alias learn at thy own measure of christs light , that teaches thee in thy own conscience to know thy self more , and live more like christ's teachers , then thou dost , thou shalt bring as few to god as thou hast done , who hast left all that have learnt of thee yet , where thou thy self yet art , viz. in sin , and not believing thou canst ever be out on 't ( as they and we tell thee ( truly ) thou mayst ) while thou livest , or till the world to come , where the popes purgatory is which ( as truly ) thy self deniest , and shalt bring men as near to god , who is light , as those who are left out of his kingdom , which is light , in the darknesse , which is the devils kingdom ; thou teachest other 's should not commit adultery , but thou art the adulteresse , and imperious whorish woman , with whom all the kings and people in the anti-christian world have committed folly and fornication , and , bewitched with thy sorceries , have run a whoring after from the lord. thou teachest another should not steal , and professest to abhorre idols , but thou art that sacred thief , that committest that sacrum furtum , that fine sort of sacriledge , and stealest the words , which thou sellest for money when thou hast done , after , , , or shillings a sermon , out of the true prophets writings , and fathers , and old authors ; and so what thou learnedst in thy accidence , when a school-boy in the countrey , thou makest use , and witnessest the truth of , now thou art become of an university scholler , a clerical country-man again , viz. in legendis veteribus authoribus proficies , in reading of old authors ( for so many doctors do out of their notes in the pulpit ) thou shalt profit ; for profit thou dost thy self in outward goods , but not the people in inward goodnesse , who are generally in all parishes left as ignorant and prophane , as the priest finds them , when he is called from them , either by death , or some deanery , or higher divine degree of spiritual dignity . thou makest thy boast of the letter , but throw breaking the letter thou dishonourest god and his ministry , while thou dost more docere facienda , then facere docenda ; and as accute and accurate a curate as thou art of souls , thou art not quite so useful as a wherstone , * which serves to sharpen other things , though it self remain blunt and obtuse ; but thou that pretendst to keep the key of knowledge and the kingdom , art neither quick to enter thy self , nor sufferest , much lesse servest to quicken , so much as thou slug'st them that would , by the best thou dost thou mak'st thy converts no better then thy self , who art not yet so good as thou shouldst be ; and in thy fighting against the quakers , who would have thee but so , as thou oughtest to be , art not one jot better then worse then nought it self . and if thou servest to sharpen at all , it is more to make men more keen , whose teeth are enough on edg at them already , against the saints and the truth they dwell in , and by thy lying words , which are as swords and sharp arrows that way , to reach them , that attend to thy contemptuous tattle , to use their tongues , after the example of thine , as sharp razors , to speak proud things , proudly , disdainfully , and contemptously against the righteous . reply . as to thy term of enthusiasts , or expecters of inspiration by their inward speculation , i say that thou , who art gone forth of thy self to look for it without thy self in the outward observations , shalt wait long enough before thou there find the kingdom , which is within thee , whether ever thou come into it yea or nay , for it comes not to any of our cryers lo here , lo there . reply ▪ as to that of locusts and vagabonds , that day is now dawn'd upon the earth in the late benighted horizon of this nation , in which we are seen , and see both who , and from whence the locusts are , and when they came up out of the pit , and how that these locusts , and caterpillars , and canker-worms , even the slumbering shepherds of the king of assyria , as nah. . , , , , . whose king is the angel of the bottomless pit , whose name is abaddon , and apollyon , the destroyer of souls , rev. . , to . have crowned themselves , and made themselves many , and spread themselves over the whole earth as grassehoppers for multirude , and camped about in all hedges in the cold day , and have spoiled and devoured , and had power to sting men as scorpions , and have made their wickednesse to pass over all men continually , and must when the sun of righteousnesse ariseth , ( as now he doth , with healing in his wings on all that fear his name ) flee away , and their place not be known where they are ; and thou shewest thy self to be yet darkened with that smoke they have for ages and generations ascended out of , that deemest those locusts to be the quakers , who are rising up in the light and power of the truth of god , to the dispelling of that smoky fog of errours they have lyen hid in . reply . we see also who are the vagabonds in the sight of god , even such as with cain are fled from his light in their consciences , and gone out from his presence into the land of nod where they are busie in building cities , and ●air outward dwellings for themselves , but have no habitation in god ; and not the quakers , who for the gospels sake chuse to have , with the apostles of old , no certain dwelling place upon earth , cor. . . though else as capable to have many as your selves , who have oft many more earthly homes and houses , then men are capable to hold in a way of honesty . reply . and though thou stilest us crowes , yet such as are not in the blacknesse of darknesse may see we come not so near to that carrion creature either in colour or conditions , as such do as so account us , who never yet put their spectacles on but when their eyes are abroad and gone from home ; but who ere are the crowes , its easie enough to be seen who are the magpies and parrets , whose pratlings and pratings are , as from no higher principle then mens teachings , and imitation of words themselves know not the true meaning of , so for no higher an end but barely to get something for the body and the belly , as rom. . v. , . which usually is the chief church-man and grand senior among the greedy clergy , and the oldest master of arts † in most universities and countreys . reply . and whereas thou speakest as if 't is not worth the while for thy junior students to follow those crowes ( the quakers ) so as to stand pelting and flinging at them with dirt and tile-shards ; in that sayest thou truly indeed ; whereupon ( i say ) those scripture studying schollars to whose use thou devotest these thy theological disputations against the quakers , in a strange language by thy own confession , might be easily better but likely not worse busied , then they ordinarily are , whilest what with stones and tobacco-pipes , dirt and mud and such like materials they are assaulting the quakers in their ( elsewise ) quiet meetings in their two nurseries of learning , ill manners and irriligion , viz. both oxford and cambridge : and 't were more worth the while for both vicechancellors and mayors to bocardo some of them for these and worse matters , for examples ●ake to other rude rabbies , then to connive at , countenance and encourage them in it , as some have lately done ; but alas , that the juniors throw stones , mud and dirt with their hands , no marvel , when such a senior as i. o. is throwing mire and dirt against the quakers with his inky crow quill , and pelting at them the best paper-pellets he has with his parret-like pen ; and no wonder to a wise man , that from the greatest to the least ye are all bedirtying the quakers , since the wicked are alway like a troubled sea that never is at rest , but ever casting up mire and dirt in the face of truth . reply . as to thy pitiful terms to us of poor , deluded , foolish , unlearned ; 't is true , as thou slightingly sayest , the quakers are for the most part poor in this world , and , as t. d. flings it also in our faces , having no great visible estates , but rich in invisibles , in that faith ye are out of , by which they stand heirs of that kingdom ye have no inheritance in till ye believe in the light ye yet hate ; and they seem as poor every way else , as having nothing in another world , to your laodicean lordships , who are boasting your selves in your profession of that ye are out of the possession of , as rich and encreas'd with goods and in need of nothing , yet are they making many rich by their ministry , when your selves ( as unwilling as you are to know it ) are not onely poor , and wretched , and miserable , and blind , and naked , but impoverishing all that have to do with , or that ever trade much with you , and maintaining all in the same ( inward ) beggarly condition with your selves ; so that their souls never thrive into the life ye sometimes talk of , into the thing , which is the end of all outward ministry , or into any better then barenesse , and seannesse , and b'indnesse , and barrennesse it self , while they fit under the shadow of your ministry , whilest thousands in this nation that have been turned to the light , and the truth within , by means of the quakers ministry , which a taking heed to within is the end of , are come to witnesse the word of christ , which your letter is but a witnesse of , dweling richly in themselves , and with the spouse , cant. . , , . that sought her beloved in your broad wayes once , wherein she never found him , being passed away from you watchmen , who beat and smite and wound them for so doing , cant. . . have in the narrow way , which ye have no mind to walk in , found him whom their souls loved . ye often tell such as relinquish your ministeries , that ye have been a means of opening their eyes , and think strange that they cannot abide under your teachings , as well as heretofore ; but were it as true , as ye do but deem it so to be , that your pains had prov'd so profitable , as to open the eyes that now see , ye could not but see of your selves , that while they abode in blindnesse they abode quietly under you blind guides , but when once they came to see , they saw they were to abide there no longer . ye call your universities the eyes and the wel springs , heads , fountains , mothers and nurseries of learning and true religion ; but the lord is judging those filthy fountains , and the rivers that run out of them , and turning their waters into blood , and giving them blood to drink , of which also they are worthy , yea and righteous is the lord in judging , for they have ever shed the blood of saints and prophets , and strove to root out the true religion , that is pure and undefiled from off the earth , and have nourisht up illiteracy it self , if that onely be learning , as in scripture sence it is , pet. . cor. . , . to know christ and the scripture by the spirit , and have headed all men in their hatred of the truth , and been mothers of most of that mischief that is now befalling all nations where they are , and the wells from whence those legions of learned unlearned ones , to whom the vision of all is as a book sealed , have sprang , and to whom all people have leaned as their leaders , till they have utterly lost the way to life , and the right eyes of those idol-shepherds , which the sword of the lord now comes upon till it be night unto them , that they shall not divine , and till they sha'l be utterly darkned . and this i declare not as one that am utterly against that outward inferiour furniture ▪ or lower sort of literature , whereon ye live and feed till ye surfet , and for having but a little of which ( for some , that pretend to very much , have not overmuch of that , and as much abuse , that little they have more in defiance , then in defence of truth ) ye reckon on your selves as exceedingly inriched ; nay , if most of you had more of it then you have , it were not much the worse , would you use it better then you do ; and were ye as rich and learned ( as ye are in that ) in the best kind of learning , which the light within leads to , and ye fight against , and the measure of gods gift of grace in your own hearts , that brings salvation with it to all that submit to be taught by it , teaches ( viz. ) to deny ungodlinesse and worldly lusts , and to liue godly , righteously and soberly in this present world , as little of which learning and life is to be found among young academical self . admirers , as among any people upon earth , among whom there is , whether magna or parva cura linguarum , major or minor artium , i will not say , nor is it much material , so long as what is of the lord most expected lies most neglected , but i may safely say not maxima , but minima pietatis . but i speak it as one not a little lamenting over our nurseries of learning and religion , and not a little grieved to see how little of god and godlinesse in the power of it is either seen or sought after by those seers and formal seekers , but those of outward letters and writings , whereof some are as bad rotten , poysonsome , false and foolish , as othersome are good , wholsome , true , sound and solid ; in the best of which yet without the light , which universally they hate , and look askew at , the life of god can never be found : and to see how little yet our nations supposedly learned leaders have learn'd of that mistery christ iesus within themselves , whereby to become any other then ignes fatui , or false leaders to the whole land , which hath been wholly caused to erre by them , and hath been led of them to its own destruction . yea , this lamentable , and shall be for a lamentation of lamentations , with which i must make a little out here to lament against you o ye nursing mothers ( so called ) to the church of god , both in this nation and throughout christendom , that there is none among all the sons , which to the vast expending and exhausting of her earthly treasure , and the very quintessence of all her carnal things upon them , both in her vniversities and in all her parishes , when remov'd from thence , she hath nourished , and that is found able by the spirit , which onely does it , to minister spiritual things truly to her , or in requital of her who hath so inriched them for it the other way , to enrich her with any true , lasting heavenly treasure , or to measure and tale back again to her , even as well in her protestant and more reformed , as in her popish and more deformed states , any other then such trash , wood , hay and stubble as is now falling before the fire . and that by all the most learned labours of her most learned rabbies , doctors and students in theology , and clergy of what sort soever , the rest of her children call'd christians have not learn'd so much as to know christ and themselves , much lesse christ in themselves , so far as make them honest , true , holy , just , sober , meek , pure , loving , gentle , merciful , pitiful peaceable , patient , temperate , and after his own image , which is the end of all learning , ministries , ministrations and doings that pertain ad intra , and ad extra too , to christian religion , which christ or image of god ad intra , and ad extra also who are not come to witnesse in and on themselves , know not yet christ the mystery , the hope of glory , and cannot prove themselves upon due examination to be in the faith , or any other in the sight of god then reprobates . and that by and from her priests and her prophets , whose own eyes are not yet annointed with eye-salve , that they may see , that have took upon them to be her supream guides into goodnesse , and took many millions of money for many ages and generations upwards to make other men learned in the truth , to direct them into righteousnesse and holinesse , the hands of evil d●ers have been strengthened , so that none hath returned perfectly from his wickednesse , but such evil fruits , as darknesse , ignorance , blindnesse , bloodinesse , uncleanness , drunkennesse , and all sorts of ungodlinesse and profanenesse is gone forth into all her lands : so that a little of that honest learning how to live godly , righteously and honestly in this present world , that is now found in abundance among poor , plain countrey rusticks and russet rabbies ( as some university doctors and divines ( witnesse doctor featley ) have derisorily denominated the mechanicks , that meddle with expounding scripture ) amounts to more then all that great learning , little equity , lesse honestly , and least godlinesse , that is found among the nursing fathers and nursing mothers of them all . and this is lamentable and a lamentation with which i must here lament , not onely over all christendom in general , but over these protestant parts of it also , where popery is so abjured , that men spend their money on their pretended feeders for that which is not the bread of life , but light heartlesse branne , that is measured out to them at a high rate too , the lord knows , out of the barren brain of their bruitish pastors , who have not sought the lord in his own light , but at the most in that meer letter that gives not the life , of which letter they are the ministers ( for means too ) and not of the spirit ; whereupon ( as the lord sayes , ier. . , . ) they shall not prosper , but all their flocks must be scattered , in order to which , the noyse of the bruit is already come , and a great commotion out of the north to lay their cities desolate as a den of dragons . that ( howbeit their deluders cry out against the quakers , who freely undelude men , as poor deluded , fanatical , &c. yet the poor people are most miserably couzened , cheated and deluded by their blind guides , that see little themselves into the marrow and mystery of spiritual matters , and not standing in the counsel of god given out by his light in their own consciences , never come to hear his word coming to them within from his own mouth , and not hearkening to what god himself saith in them , as the true prophets did , hab. . . never come into the true vision of him , or his will , but run and say he saith , because they find it written he said so , or so to others , when they never heard him speaking it in themselves , and so never profit the people at all , as god said of old such should not . they sit as the old pharisaical scribes did , who heard not at any time the voyce of god nor saw his shape , in the twi-light of their own imaginations searching the scriptures , and looking in them for the eternal life which onely testifie of it , but come not unto christ , in whom onely they testifie it is ( for in him is the life , ( say they ) and his life is the light of men ) that they may have his life in themselves , and from it onely minister unto others ; and so such food for their souls , and rayment , and riches , and gold , and eye-salve as they have , which is none of that which christ ( whose light within or inward councel they reject against themselves ) counsels all laodicean like self-corceited angels and churches to buy of him , such lifelesse stuff they give ( i should say ) sell , in as good words and fair speeches as they can put it off withal to simple people for outward food and rayment , and gold , and silver , and riches , as they have , pertaining to the belly and the body . so the bodies of shepherds are oft full and fat ; but the souls of poor sheep pine and starve , for all that . and that the souls of poor people should ever come possibly to be made any richer towards god then they are , while they stand under the droppings onely of the lips of such linguists , as are no higher learned then their nursing mothers teach them , i cannot expect , if nil dat quod in se non habet be true , sith the chief spirituals that those spiritual men have themselves , who learn to be teachers of religion to others , no where but at the vniversities , are but carnal , natural , animal , literal ; such as without the light and spirit and living word of god within ( for that in the name of his fellow-students there i.o. to whom its vouchsafed of god ( sayes he ) but ( say i ) of the devil so to do , fights against as fiercely as he can ) is obtained out of many books and writings , the best of which is the bible , and the naked letter of it , by the improvement of a meer animal understanding , which the letter of the bible it self also sayes perceives not the things of the spirit . nor can i expect as the case is with them , that they themselves , who there are taught to be gospel ▪ teachers should attain to any more then such a shallow speculation and thin external theory of those things as they have , or should ever enter into the depths of gods kingdom , whilest in the depth of the serpents subtilty they are beguiled so far from a single hearted search after the truth in the simplicity thereof , as it is from jesus , the light of the world , by the beams thereof made manifest in their own hearts , that , taking it for granted aforehand that all that , and no other then that is truth , which is held forth and told for truth in the times of their residence at those foresaid fountains , which are not steadily running one way neither , but to and fro as the tide turns , and running several wayes at several seasons , they stave off all that as heresie at a distance , which is handed to them any other ways ; no more doubting , but that that must be error , which at the well-heads of divinity is pleaded against , then they do that that is truth they there plead for ; so as is qui nil dubirat nil capit inde boni , these confident , blind , bold , implicit-faith't iuniors that visit the academies for this end , that they may become for a livelihood preachers of the faith to others ; never doubting that to be the true faith , and truth , which they find professed in their times , set themselves on work to study how to defend it at a venture against all hereticks , before they have either found or felt it to be truth within themselves , and stand steadfastly tempered still according to the present temper of the grand seniors of their respective nurseries , who temper themselves ever according to the temper of the times , and the rulers that happen to be in them ; whence it comes to passe , for the most part , that as there 's like prince like priest , so like priest like people in these northern islands , where after some certain time of standing and studying in the vniversity , these hasty hirelings run abroad before the word of command be given them from the mouth of the lord , and settle themselves up and down , till the countrey swarmes with them , like so many locusts , successively supplying the waste places of such as either die in parishes , or depart from one to another , where there 's a bigger boon , ne detur vacuum , that there be no place void or empty at any hand , which is not more an abhoring to nature in general , in rerum natura , in the fabrick of the universe , then 't is to these natural mindes , in bujusmodi rerum naturâ , in the fabrick of their vniversity affairs . and sometimes so do they hasten on their own heads , to be prophets and pastors for their own ends and livings sake , upou which account , being thereby capable of some parsonage or ecclesiastical emolument , much more then for service sake to the gospel , many younger brothers and poor mens sons are sent there to be educated , that before their haughty heads are halt hatcht into any solid understanding of either themselves or the truth of god , or their hearts so much as warmed into any way of wisdom from above , they run like a company of green guls with shells on their heads , and sow themselves under the earth ( for heaven they see not ) in such seats and soils as best like them , and plant themselves ( for plants of the heavenly fathers planting they are not ) in parishes , palaces and other places , as chaplains and curates , and then divide , and divine out that divinity they have stor'd their heads , and common-place books withal by stealth of study , out of the common stock of spirit stinting stuff , which like a spring , that 's never drawn drier then 't was at first , remains the same still at the well-head , for the furnishing of all new comers ; behaving themselves so honourably , or rather onerably in their respective bounds or circuits among the people of these nations of england , scotland and ireland also , whether they sayl by whole sale , even by whole tuns at once , that more like the pope in his peterdom , then like peter , who commanded the contrary , they lord it over their stocks , so as to live upon them whether they will of no , and often without their leave , if they can be licensed elsewhere , set up their shop of books , and go out and keep market in their parish once a week , and sell one or two of their thoughts upon some text of scripture by a glasse full at a time , at the rates of about twenty shillings a piece , and which is most tyrannical , force people too to buy their commoditie , be it good or bad , truth or errout , right or wrong , honest or counterfeit , and which is worse yet , without allowing any the liberty to try it in the publick market place , or old masse-house , where they hold it forth , whereas all other trades-men and shop-keepers excepting these mystical merchants , give all their customers leave to try their wares and merchandize , and leave them to their own choise , whether they will buy it or no ; and which is worse yet , when they have sold their sermons to them , or read or said them over to them out of their notes , they take them away along with them , and leave them not to the people , who are to pay for them per force when the time comes , and , which is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 illorum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the prime piece of delusivenesse , perhaps sell the self-same sermons for as much more at another place , at a funeral or some such like occasion ; whereas if any shoomaker should take the shoos , or book-seller the sermons , which he hath sold , and sell them to another , i know what these men , who call the quakers fanatical knaves , as well as others , would quickly be ready to account of them . and whereas a man may buy a whole bible for five shillings , they sell some one verse of it , a little set out and flourisht , and amplified with no other trimming , but their own fallible vain thoughts upon it , for twenty shilllings , which bible might serve a whole town to read in ; one chapter of which is worth twenty of their uncertain sermons : or if men be minded to have sermons , these nations are now so full of them , that for groats a-piece one may buy twenty printed sermons of men , whom they count more eminent then themselves , which may serve to hear and read at home , no lesse then twenty weeks together , one of which sermons have more truth in them , then either priests or people upon their principles of non perfection of holinesse and purging from sin in this life , are like to practise as long as they live ; and till they practise what they know already , it s but labour lost , pains taken , time spent and money expended in vain to preach and hear in order to their knowing more , sith whatsoever is known and remains undone , does but adde to their condemnation . and thus not the quakers , whom i.o. calls poor and deluded , for they grow rich in good works , though spoil'd in goods , and will never be more so spoild and deluded as they have been , but seek to save others from being deluded by men made ministers , with academical accomplishments and accoutrements , who are the evil ones and seducers that way worse and worse , rather then better and better , for all the talk● on reformation , deceiving and deceived ; i say , not the quakers , but the parish people are every way impoverishr and deluded , being fed and enriched for their mony , with nothing but mens fallible words , and worthlesse thoughts , in stead of the true living word , and precious things of the living god. and yet neither will these parish people suffer themselves to be alwayes so bejaded are they are by the rabbies that ride them to ruine , but rather , when their eyes are a little further opened to see how they are posted on by their priests , that love the wages of unrighteousnesse , to defie the israel of god against the drawn sword in the hand of the lords angel , messengers or ministers , with balaams asse refuse to passe with them any further , and open all their mouths as one man , to rebuke the madnesse of their prophets . and as thou i.o. sayest truly enough , ex. . s. . of the overthrow of that ambitious and arrogant crew of the papal clergy , so sav i in ipsissimis verbis , of the downfal of that intollerable insolency of our protestant clergy , that have pusht them beside the saddle , and setled themselves there in their steads . * neither verily is man-kind become so bruitish as that they will alwaves bear those spiritual mountebanckly cheaters , who for filthy lucres sake against the plain praecepts of christ , the examples of all the saints , the common principles of that very reason whereby we are men , and of that common understanding that all men have by the light within indelebly implanted in their minds , casting behind their backs the care of eternal salvation , do endeavour by carelesse negligence to hold all men intangled in their enticing snares of idolatry , in blindnesse and ignorance of the will of god and of their own duty to him as then that of the popish priesthood ( which thou i.o. speakest of ) will not , so neither will the solly of this kingdom of priests , that have more lately lorded it in their dominions , proceed much further , but be manifested to all men , as the others was before them both ; yea , ( as thou savest ) of thy ( so called ) poor , deluded fanatical quakers . fanatici , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. so say i of these poor , deluding fantastical anti-quakers , fanatici 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sunt erroribus & stultitia bisce diebus notissimi quos hic inprimis aggredimur ; these fantastical , self-conceited seers whom i here primarily plead against , are in these dayes most notoriously known by their errours and foolishnesse already not to a few of their own former followers , and will be to ten times as many more in the dayes that are immediately hereafter following . thy many taunting terms wherein thou both belyest , flingest and quippest at the quakers , being thus ( not in the same taunting or twitting way , but ) in a way of true judgement turned upon thy self and thy own fellow-flouters at them . i shall more closely examine , what thou falsely accusest us of more particularly , as concerning our deportment toward the scriptures , whom thou falsely declarest to be so grossely opposite thereunto , as duely and deservedly to be denominated by those terms , by which thou also miscallest us , of fanatical anti-scripturists , p. . ep. p. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ex. . s. . i.e. haters of the scripture , and to be rankt among the rudest reproachers of them in such words of thine as are hereunder repeated , and replied to . i.o. thou sayest , satan in these dayes assaults the sacred truth of the word of god in its authority , purity , integrity or perfection , especially in the poor , deluded fanatical souls commonly called quakers , &c. ep. p. . . that to this sort of men ( the quakers ) it was not enough to joyn in with those in ages past , who cast reproaches on the scriptures , and approve of all the opprobrious speeches that have been cast out against them , but they also rejoyce that the care of this matter , viz. of spoiling the holy scriptures of ( its proper name ) that glorious title , of the word of god , is by satan confer'd upon them : that they ( the quakers ) who would seem to bear away the bell from all , as to the stout opposing of the perfection of the scriptures , thou principally encounterest ; and as 't is an honour to thee , that god hath pleased to confer on thy unworthy self this task of fighting against those enemies of his word ( the quakers ) so what thou shalt perform in prosecution of this function , thou oughtest to ascribe to his grace , &c † reply . herein thou not onely shewest thy s●l to be of that sort of men , to whom it is not enough to joyn with those in ages past , who cast reproaches on the hearers of the word of god , and tremblers at his word , isa. . . ( now in scorn called quakers , and cast out by their brethren for his name sake , as then they were ) and to be an approver of all the opprobrious speeches that are cast out against them by this adulterous and sinful generation , who bend their tongues like bowes for lyes against the truth , which lyes thou shouldest be a valiant reprover of , but also to rejoyce that the care of this matter of fighting against the truest friends in the world to god , and his word ( the quakers ) and of raising such reproaches , false reports , scandals and opprobrious speeches , as the rabble of junior rabbies reproach them with , is confer'd upon thee by the devil ; for thou egregiously belyest the quakers in this particular , who deny not , but purely and perfectly own all that authority , purity , integrity and perfection of the scriptures , which the scriptures ascribe unto themselves , and rob it not of any proper name , or any title at all , which by it self is either attributed or appropriated to it self , as that of the word of god is not , as is seen hereafter ; much lesse are they such enemies to the word of god , or that sacred truth written of in the scriptures , as thou most abusively and blasphemously belyest them to be , that thou needest to stand up , as thou dost in thy meer demi-●●●gested demications against them , for the scriptures , and the word of truth , between which and the scriptures , in which it is declared , they divide aright , so as to give its own proper name to each of these , whilst ye divinity doctors in your deep dotage , making no due distinction betwixt them , for all your pretended friendship thereunto , are found very enemies to them both . so that whereas thou , who in other matters then this gloriest in thy own shame , seem'st to glory in this function of fighting against the quakers , as in some great grace peculiarly given of god to thy unworthy self , more then any , as if praemium strenuae contra trepidantium perfectionem ac ●anocentiam oppositioni debitum nemini mortalium tibi praereptum velles , thou seemest to thy self to bear the bell before all others , in thy stout opposing of that innocent seed of god , to which grace of his thou ascribest what ever , relying on his help and assistance thou performest in thy function aforesaid ; i conclude against thee to the contrary , thus in short , that 't is satan himself , who set thee at work against the quakers , and helpt thee as well as he could , and furnisht thee with many a lye both against the quakers and the truth , and led thee in a meer fools paradise to prate with malicious words , and speak evil of thou knowest not whom nor what , and left thee to bewray such weaknesse , folly and false hood as falls not at all from such , as have help and assistance from god , but ever flows from the father of lyes and his children with whom thou wilt have thy reward . * j.o. whatsoever the jewes , whatsoever the papists have been bold at any time to utter in disgrace of the scriptures , every whit of that these impure men ( the quakers ) stricken ( as 't were ) with some direful inordinate motion or rapture both say , and assert , so that its a shame to relate the horrid and most foolish titles of books ; the chief vagrants and ringleaders of this flock , being urged , having spoken wickedly and blasphemously against the scriptures . what their common opiniin , i have thought good to set down as taken and collected from their own books , and set conferrences held with them , &c. reply : here 's a most palpable lye related of the quakers , on whose behalf i here openly professe against thee before the world that we own all those writings , not only of moses and the prophets of the old , but those of the apostles and evangelists also , which are commonly called the scriptures of the new testament , to be scriptures of truth , written by holy men of god ( as those of the old also were ) as they were moved by the holy spirit , whereas the iewes ( who own , value , study , and stand for those of the old to this day , as zealously as your selves in words do for both ) do malitiously and lyingly affirm them to be false , fictitious , and full of lyes . reply . whereas we say no such thing , nay , nothing at all in any disgraceful way of the scriptures , but say only in words of truth and sobernesse , that they are not to be so exceedingly adored and idolized by men , as they●●re by you , who make them little lesse then all in all things to the church ; the papists speak much in disparagement of the scriptures , in which we say they do but blasphemously babble against them , viz. that they are inferrior to the humane traditions of their church , or at least to the unerring breast of their ghostly holy father , without whom opening and authorizing them , they are of no more use nor authority then aesops fables , and such like . reply . whereas thou art ashamed to relate the horrid foolish titles of the quakers books , in proof of their blasphemies , against the scriptures ; i believe that 's true indeed , though all the rest are palpable lyes ; for if thou shouldest relate the titles of the quakers books in proof of the truth of this thy charge of them , which is utterly false , then thy lye which is plain enough already , would be seen more plainly then it is ; for in all the titles of the quakers books that ever i read , who have read ten times more of them ( i believe ) then thou hast done , as i have seen christ only exalted on the throne , and the scripture owned in its place ; so i never saw , and am perswaded also thou never hast seen any thing written by the quakers , that borders on the foresaid iewes and papists blasphemings of the holy scriptures , and therefore as i cannot much marvel at it that thou art ashamed to do it ; so i do not much blame thee , that it doth so much shame thee ( as thou sayest ) to relate the most foolish of them . if it were true , there was malice enough in thee i.o. to provoke thee to have instanced some particulars in proof of this parcel of scandal to the fuller shame of the quakers , whom to scandalize what thou canst is thy chief design , and to have named those blasphemers and their books ; but pudet referre ( sayest thou ) i am ashamed to relate , &c. thou art loath to be too punctual in thy proof , lest it proving too short of thy charge , the stain thou wouldest have stuck upon the truths friends should be stricken back upon thy self , and the lye come to lye at thy own door , for if sounded out too loudly and distinctly , it might eccho and rebound home again to thee the author , and so redound to thy dishonour ; so thou fold'st thy self like the serpent , whose seed thou art , in indefinite complexes , or at least lapest thy self up in universals , and darest not lay thy self out at length , nor grow too far into particulars ; for dolus later in universalibus quae nunquam bene sentiuntur , nisi ex particularibus suis , as deceit lyes most securely , and keeps best hid in universals , which are not clearly perceived but by the particulars in which they exist ; so by being beheld in the said particulars , both they and the lyes , that lye often in them undiscerned , come more unavoidably to be discryed . reply . whereas thou saiest thou thinkest meet to set down our opinion , as collected out of our own books and speeches , and accordingly dost declare what we hold , as concerning the scriptures , thou most plainly confutest thy self as to the lyes thou tellest of us , for thy self acknowledgest of us , that we own that the scriptures do contain a true * declaration of the will and mind of god , proceeding from the spirit of christ , inspiring the writers , that thus far we are right , and that we stand to this confession without any renouncing it , only that we would have wholly rejected the scriptures without doubt , but that things have not fell out according as we could wish , & do deny them to be the ordinary , inalterable , perfect , and standing rule of gods worship , and our obedience without the revelations of the spirit , and such like ; and this ( sayest thou ) is the summe of these mens iudgements , &c. which if it be , where 's the wicked blasphemy all this while wherewith thou chargest us ? for there 's none ( as shall appear ) in the worst of this , which yet thou settest down as gathered out of the quakers books , and speeches , which thou sayest bear blasphemous titles against the scriptures ; but pudet referre , i blush to set them down , must answer all . these things i o. do convict thee of telling many notorious lyes against the quakers , even too many for a man to tell , that calls himself a minister of christ , and d. d. though not all by very many , which thou tellest in thy book ; some of which lyes yet ( left they should not be loud enough ' to come under every ordinary readers observation , if told but once , are either expresly , or implicitly two or three times over related . * j. o. the jewes , papists and quakers differ among themselves ; it so falls out that they who in all other matters are most different in opinion , conspire altogether in this blasphemy , viz. against the scriptures . the papists and enthusiastical fanaticks do perpetually war against each other , they mutually devote each other to destruction . they are not acted by the same reasons , but those for their traditions , these for their enthusiasms and revelations , contending tooth and nail , and so like sampsons foxes with their tayles turned to each other , bringing fire-brands on the churches bread-corn , they all attempt together very friendly to thrust down the holy scripture from its place . the papists do earnestly endeavour to detrude the scripture out of its proper place in the church ; our fanaticks tread in the same foot-steps with them , into which wickednesse those among the papists that are called the spiritually , have led them the way . and elsewhere thou reckon'st us up among the rest , as enemies of gods word , and haters of the scriptures . reply . howbeit i. o. thou , who in thy epistle pretendest it to be thy aim , and intention in thy discourse , to discover the reproach that is cast by many upon the scripture to its disparagement , and to vindicate it therefrom , dost ( as in most things else wherein thou bend'st at us ) discharge thy bow at a venture , so as at random to rank us , as joynt abettors with them in grosse , in that one grosse , and common cause of caluminating , vilifying , decrying , denying the scriptures , among atheists , pagans , new testament contemning iewes , papists , and the whole rabble of rude reproachers thereof , whether in whole , or part , as if we were , if not the ring leaders , yet at least the rere-ward of the ragged-regiment of anti-scripturists of what ever sort , yet in this thou hast most grosly abused us , and thy self also , by thy false accusing and belying of us to the world in that particular , and must most assuredly come into condemnation in ●he judgement for condemning the generation of the just ; for however thou mis-reportest of us to the causing of many to mistake us , yet of a truth we are no such manner of people , as thou wouldest make men believe we are ; but such as shall manifest our selves even in this present contest with thee ( for all thy perking up into a proud pretensive prate against us ( pro scripturis ) as if we stood in some deep defiance , and thou against us in some eminent and more then ordinary defence of the scriptures ) to be in no enmity , but in true unity with the scriptures , and to be more real friends thereunto , then either thy self , who wilt be found in as real enmity to them , as thou art in seeming friendship , or any of those aforesaid , with whom thou rankest us , as if we were the rankest enemies thereof , that ever appeared in any age since the scripture had a being to this present day . be it therefore fore-known unto thy self , and all men , who will believe , and can receive it for truth , and who so will not , let the mischief of his mis-belief in this matter be upon him , that though we own not thee i.o. and side not with , but mostly against thee in that very book , wherein thou standest up so stiffly against atheists and papists , and all anti-scripturists , as well as against the men called quakers , whom thou but supposest to be such ; and though we may possibly be found saying some things ( soberly ) which atheists and papists say ( scornfully ) of the scriptures , which are gain-said by thee , and gain-saying at least twenty things , that are asserted by thee of the scriptures , in thy zealous pleadings for them , yet we are no atheists ( as thou supposest ) neither are we papists , or iesuites , neither are we anti-scripturists in any wise ; nor do we so much as take the part , or serve the interest of , nor side , or comply with any of them , any more then we do with thy self , whose antagonist and t. d's too , i am in this present reply to thy reproaches of the quakers ; in vindication of whose interest alone , abstract from that of the papists , as much as from thy own , and thy party of protestants ; and singly , and solely on behalf of the truth professed by the quakers , and opposed by thee , and all the other whom thou opposest ; and finally , for the scriptures , which are truly owned , valued , used , known , and practised only among the quakers , i herein stand up more or lesse against you all , as against such , who ( none of you excepted , no not those among you protestant pretenders to it , who would sain seem to others ( as you do to your selves ) to be most fervent for it , any more then those decryers and denyers of it , with whom thou slanderously sayest the quakers side ) will every one of you be found foes to , denyers of , and fiery fighters against the scripture . and this that we are no atheists , nor yet associates , or assistants to any such , as are without god in the world , but that people who know god , and are known of him above all other people upon earth , the best of which in words professe to know god , whom in truth they know not , but in works , deny , being abominably , in their lives , disobedient to his light , and to every good work void of judgement , will as easily , as evidently appear to every patient and impartial reader that can suspend his censuring till he hath read these present animadversions of thy mad subversions of the things of god , unto the end . and that we are neither papists , nor yet assenting or adhering to that synagogue of rome , in any of their abusive defamations , depravations , depressions , decryings , disparagements , or abominable attempts for the abolition of the scriptures , which they , as thou sayest truly , would ( if they were able ) deprive all others of , or of their lives , i give the world here to understand , as far as they will understand it , or take it for truth form me , who for truths sake meerly , am of lesse credit and repute in it , then else i should be , by a present protesting in the name and behalf of that people called quakers , against the papists sordid , sottish , sinful , shameful , seeking wholly to suppresse the scriptures from being seen at all by the vulgar , and scoring out of it , what makes most against their bruttish and worse then heathenish idolatries , and wresting those holy writings , and turning them as they list to their own turns by their most false & far off translations , and as utterly untrue interpretations of them , besides both the plain sense of the words in the original languages they were wrote in , and mind of the spirit of god , which originally moved holy men to write them , and many more such juggles , some of which 't were better for it then it is , if the clergy ( so called ) of the protestant part of christendom , who are too too full of the like , were cleare of , and fully free from , as they are not , for all their protesting so much against the popedom for its adulterating of the scripture . which protestation of mine against the romish clergy , i the rather , and the more largely enter here again , not only because i am so generally misreported , that by many , even thereupon , i am also mis-believed to be too great a favourite , and by some flatly a iesuite , and so more then an ordinary friend to that false fraternity , but also because it may fall out that that slender and senslesse suspition of me ( if not timely supprest ) by reason of three things may in time ( though groundlesse ) grow so great in more , as it does already in some , that , for the sake thereof , very truth it self , when ●old by me , shall not tast well from me , nor take place in the hearts of men , with whom commonly , damnati lingua vocem habet , vim non habet . those three things above briefly hinted , are more fully replyed to as followeth ; . in regard that not only t. d. in his two toyes , puts us and the popish party together as brethren , for jumping into one judgement about the scriptures , but also thou i o. who art a man more beleeved and beloved by the world , which heeds and loves its own , then i , who am not so much heeded as hated by it , because i am not of it , dost often in thy unquiet quarrel with the quakers ( so called ) which i , who am one of them , am now answering , so unequally yoak us , and the pontifical clergy together , as co-conspirators against the scriptures , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the younger sort , for whose instruction thou devotest those thy latine labours , and more then a good many of those iunior novices , both in university and countrey as are ever ready as rawly as rashly , iurare in sententiam seniorum , to drink down desperately all that , and digest it by implicit faith , that is imposed , and handed out to them for truth from the tongues and pens of their grand gamaliels , sith thou i. o. dd. sayest it , will unquestionably more then think it to be all truth that thou sayest of our co-partnership with the papists in their basenesse towards the scriptures , in those false sayings of thine that are fore-cited , wherein thou injuriously avouchest us to be approvers of all their tauntings , and joynt blasphemers with them of the scriptures . . in regard that ( howbeit it is not at all in vindication of the popish clergy in any of their devilish doings , nor scornful , or spiteful speakings against the scripture , but of another interest , even that of the true clergy , or heritage of god , ( as remote from theirs and thine too , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i am an opposer of thee as to that same book , wherein thou so vehemently opposest the papists ; hence many may , as some already do suppose i am in far firmer friendship and fellowship with that fry of fighters against the scripture , then with thee and thy fellows , who wouldest fain seem at least to fight against them for it ; but ( if any man will be ignorant of me and my honest meanings , let him be ignorant ) for my part as i am a well-wisher to all souls , and am in friendship with all men , having and holding as truly pacem cum personis , as cum peccatis bellum ; so i am in no fellowship with that in all men , whether of the romish religion , or that which ( informe ) is more reformed , that is not in fellowship with the scriptures , ( for that which is not in union therewith , is not in fellowship with god ) fighting against neither smal nor great , save only against the sinful seed of the serpent in them , which from the spirits of the spiritually throughout all christendom , spawnes it self forth in spite , and spiritual wickednesse against the seed of the woman , who must bruise his head at last , though he obtains for a while to bruise her heel , between whose seed , which is one , and his seed of every sort , whose name is legion ( for they are many ) the most endlesse enmity is ; so that though i appear against those paper-works of thine , wherein thou appearest upon the stage , in part against that synagogue of satan ( but more palpably against the synagogue of the saints ) yet this is not all to gratifie the romanists in their scurrilities against the scriptures , more then thee and thine abettors in your scarce schollar-like , much lesse scripture-like scoldings for them ; but as occasion is ( pro scripturis ) for the scriptures , which , notwithstanding thy empty apologetica's for them , ye , and the papists also are both utterly against , i shall not spare to grate hard against you both , as such , who while you are scribling of the scriptures , whether pro or con , are yet our of that precious truth the scripture tells of , and against that living word , that eternal and internal light it calls to , which leads to that life of god that the scripture calls for . . in regard that i am , and shall unavoidably be found in this present controversie with thee , saying some things against thee and thy untrue assertions for truths sake ( yet with a due respect thereunto ) which the very papists say ( though truly enough , yet too disrespectfully ) about the scriptures . in this respect though , i would not have them so ; yet i believe some are , and some will be ( if peradventure these premises prevent it not ) so blind as to believe i own the pope and his apostolical church , because i cannot own all that as true and apostolical , which some prime protestants tell for truth , but rather tell the truth with him when he tells it about the scripture , or any other thing , then errour and lyes with those , who pretendedly for the truth and pro scripturis , protest against him : for i must give the devil his due , so as to acknowledge his words to be true , when he speaks the truth , though to a false end , rather then sooth up thee i.o. or any other men , so as to say the crow is white , and that ye utter truth , when ye tell utter untruth , though against the devil himself , to please either thee , or them . howbeit many men in these dayes , and not a few of those , who are called christs ministers , and counted well studied schollars , or at least would not be well contented to be not so accounted , are yet so dim , as without any more ado to deem them to be romish priests , under pay from the pope , who own some truths , which his priesthood owns ( as if because at rome they own christ to be the son of god , they must needs be of that church , who deny him not so to be ) but more especially any truths , which by these divine deemers are not deemed to be truths , and thereupon disowned by their non-discerning selves , upon whose crazy concerts , and cloudy accounts , and crooked conjectures , some , that do more service to the truth against popish fictions in a year , then themselves do in an age , are thorow their shallow surmises by their implicit faith't people , as sinisterly supposed to be supporters of the papal hierarchy , because themselves , whose idol the letter is , are not digested in all their extravagant exaltings of it , though the popes extream of exalting his leaden legends , and holy chaire above it , be more professedly distasted and detested . thus such as believe , according to the scripture , the general grace , and love of god in giving christ to die for all men , for as much as that also is believed at rome , seem to these senslesse ones to favour too much of popery , because the empty understandings , narrow nodels , and heedlesse head-pieces of many protestant parish priests are not as yet enlarged enough to comprehend it ; who notwithstanding being blear-eyed at home , whilest eagle eyed abroad , nunquam vident id manticae , quod in tergo est , never come to see , or sent that plain popery of their parish posture and parish pay by way of tythes , which the night is now too far spent for any but owles , bats and night-birds not to see , that its of the pope ; sith though its a piece of stark rank and popery , not held without the guilt of perjury , yet , as it s their own ( & suus cuique crepitus bene olet ) so it s that which serves their turn better at this time , then the extirpation of it root and branch according to their oathes ( which would savour lesse of popery , and more of pure pietv ) will ever do . of this sort of evil surmisers is t. d. who , not only as thou i. o. dost , accuses us ( me in particular ) as one big with , and spitting out venome against the scriptures , for not owning those outward writings as the only rule of faith and holy life , but also accounts of us , as no other then broachers of popish doctrines , and bringers in of the popes baggage , for dissenting as in other points so from his blind tenets about the scriptures yea , so earnestly doth t. d. drive on his design of insinuating it into mens minds concerning me , that i am popishly affected , that he finds occasion of accusation against me as so , as well where i more fully own the scripture , then himself does , as where i may more easily seem ( to one that 's blind ) to deny it . witnesse his words , page . . pamph where for owning the epistle of paul to laodicea , which he sputns at as spurious , he flyes thus foolishly in my face : t.d. we know ( quoth he ) your brethren of the popish party have laid many such brats at the apostles doors , which they will not father , and you shew what you are in abbetting their wickednesse . reply . what a wicked and adulterous generation of men is this ? like that in which christ lived , who would have something to say against the gospel and the truth , let it come handed to them which way soever ; they would neither lament at christs mourning to them in iohns ministry , nor dance at his piping to them in his own , but reject and belye him when he came contrarily to them in iohns fastings ; and condescendingly to them in his own eatings and drinkings , as either having a devil , or being a drunkard , or a gluttòn , or a friend of gods enemies , and sinners , or somewhat or other still that was nought , rather then own the truth at any hand that in both ministryes was held out unto them ; so is the ear of our now pharifaical generation of scribes stop'd , like that of the deaf adder at the voice of the charmer , let him charm never so wisely ; among whom t.d. is a chieftain , who ranks us among the popish party , as spitting out our venome , that we are big with against it , page . pamph. and as denyers of the scripture together with them , because we deny many false things that many such ministers as himself do most absurdly affirm of it ; and yet charges us as brotherly owners and abbetors of the papists wickednesse also , for owning the holy scripture in many parts of it , wherein our english ministers do not blush to deny it , and so consequently for owning it much more truly and fully then themselves : thus , — heu stirpem invisam ! hei mihi quod n●llis amor est reparabilis herbis ! if we should , as they falsly ▪ accuse us , own the scriptures lesse then our accusers do , we must be papists ; if we own them more , and more of them then themselves do , we must be no lesse then papists . we must stand doom'd as papists , who , be we nere so wary , are papists deem'd in this , and in the clean contrary . but that i am not so popishly affected as i am , as well every way , as every where misrepresented to be by those , who to sit the more securely in their own popishnesse , do in the apishnesse of their spirits sound it out with a dreadful noise to the stunning of their already pope-serving people , popery , popery , against all that come neer to storm them out of their popified parish postures , practises and preferments , to what i have said sufficiently above , i shall now adde what followes in evidence thereof , whether you will hear ( o all ye my unjust accusers in that particular ) or whether ye will forbear , to the perfect ending of my protestation which i have begun to enter against that synagogue of rome , viz. first , that ( whatever they may own of what i have above , or shall yet say ) i own not them as apostolical , nor as any other then that apostatical harlot , which , together with her two brats , that more lately are broken out from her bowels , viz. prelacy and presbytery , hath in three parts ( as the great city is said to do before its fall , rev. . . ) sate like a certain unity in trinity , and trinity in unity , or one great tripartite mystical babylonish whore , with her tripple crown upon the many waters , or tongues , nations , kindreds and people , and reigned over the kings of the earth , rev. . . . . . and as to their behaviour toward the scripture , which they wofully mistake themselves to be the only trustees , to whose care and custody it was committed , i professe against them with i. o. that they have wofully misdemeaned themselves towards it , as by sowly betraying , and ( to their own eternal shame ) falsif●ing that their pretended trust , corrupting , depraving , vitiaring , interpolating , adding , detracting , forging , foisting into the scripture what never was of the spirit , so by abusing it every way , so that none of the copies of it ( as it comes thorow their hands ) whether original or translated ( and if thou i o. canst shew any that come thorow other hands of which thou canst say infallibly they are not altered and corrupted ( as in thy book thou hast not done ) dic quibus in terris & eris mihi magnus apollo ) are fit to be a fixed stable rule , or infallible guide to us thoroughout in the knowledge of the will of god ; and lastly , ( for take it at the worst its worthy of a better carriage towards it then they afford it ) in a scurrilous scoffing way underva'uing , vilifying , defying , unworthily depressing it far below it self , as much as it is over-valued , idolized , blindly worshipped , deisted , and enthroned far above it self by your selves , who , together with the popish party , like the frog and the mouse , being very busie in busling against each other with your bulrushes about the scripture in your two opposite imaginations , will find a generation that waits upon the lord , and mounts up with wings as quick-sighted as an eagle , though no better then a blind buzzard in your eyes , who will winne the field from both you stout warriours , which are at it tooth and nail to your own ruine , and shall one have no more thank from god then the other , whilest , for all your zealous pratings pro and con in two different erroneous extreams concerning the letter , ye are both exceedingly , and both extreamly erred from the light it came from , and the life it calls for ; the one exalting the bare dry bones and dead body of the letter above the word of life , which letter too is magnified more in an empty sound of windy , plausible commendations of it , then by any , so much as outward conformity to it in conversation ; the other establishing the dark lumpe of their own lying legends and dead stinking carcase of their traditional divinations , partly derived from faithlesse forefathers , and partly divined forth from the deep pit of their great ghostly fathers fathomlesse fancy , as a standard in stead of it . so that howbeit i.o. the detestable wickednesse of that antichristian conclave , who ( as thou sayest ) sell themselves to work all manner of abominations against the scripture , i abominate as much as thou canst do ( yea be not thou so blind as to believe , that i abet them in any of their beastlinesse of that nature ) yet withal do not thou believe that , that while i abandon their brutishnesse , i can own thee in thy blindnesse , and the many absolute absurdities , whereby thou grossely abusest it , and the truth , and thy self well-nigh as much another way , who perhaps thinkest thou canst not easily ( if at all ) be transported into errour , while thou art extolling the outward text of scripture , and gain-saying at a venture all that those debasers of it hold out about it ; for a● the time is coming ( as thou truly enough prophesiest unto them ) wherein it shall repent them for ever that they have lifted up themselves against this sacred grant of the wisdom , care , love and goodnesse of god , page . o● thy epistle . so say i to thee , the time is at hand wherein it shall repent thee that ever thou liftedest up thy self ( as thou dost ) in so vain a way of lifting up , and advancing the letter over all that , which is to be preferred before it , and was before it , as that it came out from , and points men to , even the living word and inward light and spirit , which ( as held out by the quakers , not in any way of that devilish disparagement of ( as thou intimatest , ex. . s. . ) or spiteful disrespect to the scripture ) thou settest at nought with all the calumny thou canst likely cast on them ; yea as thou sayest of the pope , ex. . s. . papae tempus erit , &c. so say i to thee , non papae solum , sed tibi tempus erit cum magno optaveris emptam intactam scripturam . and that i am no iesuite , nor sider with them about the scripture , so as to agree with them in upholding their seigned infallible chaire , besides what many can witnesse , who have been eye and ear witnesses of my opposing them in other nations , i adde this as my final defence of my self , as to that aspersion of t. d. he that will give heed to it let him , if otherwise let him chuse , non cum jesu itis , qui itis cum jesuitis . so then as to evince it that i am none of those idiots that idolize any meer mens writings , as many do the un kilful scriblings of their scribes for the scriptures , little lesse then israel did the golden calves , after which they dotingly ran from god himself , saying of these imuges in their own imaginations , these are thy gods , &c. nor yet any meer writings of those holy men that wrote the holy scripture it self , as most of our misty-ministers and their people do , because they were written by divine inspiration , little lesse then israel did the brazen serpent , because it was hung up by divine institution : i shall first take occasion to thrust down that enthroned calf of thy anti-scriptural triobulary treatises , theses , and atheological thoughts upon the scripture from that high place it hath in the thoughts of such as fall down before it , as moses threw down that molten image which the high priest made , and ignorant people made a god of ) and stamped it to powder : and secondly , as hezekiah not without gods own approbation , took down the brazen serpent which had its being ( as the holy scripture it self had ) not without gods own appointment , when once men began to do homage to it , and called it no more then nehushtan , that is a piece of brasse , that they might know it was no god ; so shall i take down the dead corps and bare carcase of the best copy of the scripture , since men begin to go a whoring after it , from god , and christ , and the word of life it self , out of that high and stately throne , wherein thou i. o. statest it , and from those surpassing and lofty titles of , the living word of god , the most glorious spiritual light in the world , above the sun , the most perfect rule , and many more such like ; with which thou ( as hereafter appears ) dost invest and exalt it over all , even over the light it came from , which is by thee unjustly put behind it , and dehased below it , though both in time and worth 't is far before it , and stile it by its own true name of writings of truth , or holy scripture , that so men that seek to it more then to god himself for salvation , and search it , and therein think to have eternal life [ at the old scribes did that never came to christ , the light , above whom they prefered it ] may recollect themselves and see that the letter gives not the life , but doth only testifie outwardly of another , whom being lost from him by looking to the letter , which bids look to him , they never look to , nor never yet came to , that they might have life . so withal to evince it that i am none of those popish ignoramus's , that deal so ignobly with the holy scriptures , as to set them at nought , and pluck them down ( as they do ) not only below themselves , which have as real and great an excellency as any such thing , as is no more then an external writing of an external truth can possibly have , but also below that , which is worse then naught ( viz. ) their leaden legend of lyes , their trashy traditions , their mouldy massora , their invented oral law , their vain verbum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & that meer imagined moon calf , the unerring breast of their most erroneous holy father , and such like ; i shall in this work before all the world prefer the bare body and letter of the scripture , which is legible to mens bodily eyes , far before that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as thou truly callest it ) for all their abominations , before that whole body of fools bawbles , that bottomlesse pit of paultrinesse , that boundlesse bundle of baby clouts that endlesse ocean of omnigatherums , that dirty puddle and deep dunghil of devility , rather then divinity , which the more it s dived and raked into , the more rotten it renders it self like some for did sink , that stinkes the more , the more 't is stirred in ; for such is the traditionary treasury of that saltlesse unsavoury sea ( upon which therefore the plagues of the vials ( which must be filled upon you also ) are fallen , falling , and to fall ) which sea of rome is , as the blood of a dead man , lifelesse , putrid and corrupt , so that every living soul dies that lives therein . yea , consider the naked literal aspect of the holy scriptures , nor in its highest , not in its primitive , best , and purest , as at first given forth , but in its meer derivative , in its lowest , meanest , and most altered and adulterated capacity , wherein it stands at this day , wrested and torn , and like a nose of wax twisted and twined into more then twice , if not ten or twenty times twenty several shapes by mens untrue and tottered transcripts , and translations ( for oh that vast variety of lections , besides the infinity of senses , throw mens misrenderings , corrupt copyings , correctings of , and commentings on it , &c. that the world is now loaded with , and led out into ! ) yet as meer a graven image as that is with ink and pen on paper or skin of parchment ( for 't is so , though i reject their jeers , as improper and impious , by whom it is scoffed at as chartacea , membranae , &c. for 't is not so ) and as dead a letter as it is ( bear with me in that expression i. o. till i come to shew where thou so callest it as well as papists and quakers , whom thou quarrellest with for so calling it ) and as very a nose of wax and lesbian rule , and no certain stable standard as it is ( for i know not why what they wickedly ( because tauntingly ) we may not honestly ( sith truly , seriously , and soberly ) so call , which may so easily , so endlesly be altered by the wills of men , as they self i.o. shewest us in the , , , , . pages of they preface , the scripture may , and made to stand which way any critick pleases ) and as no authority to us at all , as they ( in their basenesse and hatred of it , which i condemne ) do say it is of , as 't is my continual exercise in works to do it , so do i here in plain words exalt the scripture , which they so debase , and state it over all that their trash and aforesaid trumpery , even on the very top of all their long train of traditions , and over the archest tittle of the tripple crown ; the proudest pinacle of peters ( now un - peter-like ) painted temple , the highest point of that pompous , pious , piteous pillar and ground of truth , the choicest chapiter of that holy church , and infallibly erring infallible chair . thus doing , i shall be own'd at last , if not by i. o. and such as have his dimme doings , as t●ey have his person , in admiration , because of advantage , yet by all unbyassed beholders of both our undertakings for the scripture to be no more a pander for the papists ( as i am more belyed then believed to be the lying tribe of levi ) then for himself , but a just , plain , and impartial pleader for the scripture against them both , and a doer of right to those holy writings which are egregiously wronged by both papists and protestants , as between two parties of partial praters pro and con about them ; by one of which they are scarcely more sottishly and satanically ( for superstitions sake ) abhorred , then unduly and superstitiously adored by the other . for howbeit thou deemest thy self , and those thy self reverencing fellow students of it , to whom thou dedicatest thy endeavours to vindicate it , to be such as value the scripture as much as any thou knowest ; yet there are many whom thou knowest not , but supposest to be sleighters and disowners of it , who , if to own , value and exalt it , be to ascribe all that to it , which it assumes to it self , to preach and practise that holy life , which is the end of it , and to give it its due and no more ( as indeed it is ) do own , value , honour and exalt the holy scripture much more , and much more truly , then any of your self-exalting selves , who , saving your fair speeches for it , and your fawnings on it , ( ore tenus ) your common aiëry and meer verbal commendations thereof , and of your selves as valuers thereof , do yet in truth no more value , or honour it , then the iewes ( whose grand idol that is , as the whole is yours ) at this day do their own owned part thereof ; of whose dotage in that kind , i have in sundry nations been an eye-witnesse , in not a few of their synagogues , who adorn , and carry it about ( as ye do your bibles , more beautified without , then your selves are within ) and lift it up with loud noises , especially when these words are read , ( viz. ) he shall magnifie the law , and make it honourable ; when yet the truth it makes mention of , hath no mansion in their minds to the renewing of them ; yea , i may truly say you do more undervalue the scripture by your advancing it above it self , and over-valuing and worshipping it so much as ye do in your words , whilst alienated from the light it came from , and calls to , in your works and lives , then some of the synagogue of very rome it self , who in lips and lives too , do undervalue it ; by how much deceit and hypocrisie is far greater iniquity , then 't is for men openly to disown what cordially they do not own , and to pretend to be no better friends to it then indeed they are ; and by how much as all is not gold that glisters , so all that , which by its glistring would fain seem to be gold , when it is but drosse , is worse then that , which both is drosse , and seems to be so . yea , those that undervalue the scripture so as to set traditions above it , and they that overvalue it so as to set the light below it , both these must come under condemnation from me , as being both abomination to the lord , before whom ( witness the brazen serpent , and christs apostles , acts . . to . whom the people did worse in worshipping as gods , then if they had not heeded , but hated them as of the devil ) it may be worse to overvalue , then to undervalue many things , which may be of his own appointment : so that ye have little need to decry against papists as decryers of the scriptures , and lesse to link us ( the quakers ) and papists together , as adversaries in common to the scriptures , as if your selves were the only patrones thereof ; for as anti-papistical as ye seem to be about the scriptures , yet ye will be found acting , not more against them , then ( though in a different way from the papists ) against the scriptures . and howbeit thou taylest us and the papists together , figuring us out by thy fine tale of the aforesaid foxes , as falling from , and fighting against each other , and yet both fellow-friends against the scripture ; that is false as urged , and uttered with that referrence to the papists and quakers , as joynt injurers of the scriptures , wherewith thou ridiculously relatest it , but true enough , yea too too true , if related in that right referrence , which it bears toward the papists and your selves ; yea , quid rides ? be not so merry i. o. about the mouth ; for de te ( mutato nomine quakers ) fabula narratur ; thou thinkest thou hast shrewdly hurt thy meer fancied fanatick foes with a flap of a fox-tayle , but in that tale thou hast but made a rod for thy own tayle ; for verily he that hath but half an eye , and by thy mentioning thereof , is minded to search where , and to whom thy simile best suits , will find how causelesly and incongrously thou crowdest the papists and quakers so closely together as companions in thy abusive comparison ; and how aptly it may rather be applyed to that romish synagogue , and your selves , to whom it comes as nigh as four feet ( if any simile can truly be said to run on all four ) can well carry it ; and who , as much as ye dissent not only in diverse other matters , but also about the scripture it self , the one for , and the other against the perfection , purity , integrity , authority , and excellency of the meer text and bare letter of it , do yet concur as closely , and come as nigh to one another in denyal of the truth and doctrine thereof , as four pence comes to a groat . yea , the truth is your selves , and they are far more fitly figured by those fiery-tayld foxes which tended two several wayes , yet ended in one and the self same work of destroying the philistims corn , whil'st turning tayl to tayl , and drawing into your two different extreames , one sort crying up unwritten traditions to be the most perfect rule above the scripture ; the other crying up the outward letter , as the most perfect rule , above the internal light , word and spirit , which gave it forth , ye not only fill the world , as with so many fire brands with your fiery contentions , so that like that corn which failed when it felt the fire , it fell together by the eares to its own ruine and destruction , but also between you draw and drive all people ( being erred from it your selves ) from that , which was before them , in the being of a rule , and will be found to be a most perfect rule without them both , ( viz. ) that light which thou so laughest at . so that their souls starve , famish , perish , and pine away for lack of the true bread of life , christ iesus , whom the light only leads to , and for want of that corn of heaven which god feeds those with that truly fear him . and as to what is said about your valuing and exalting the scripture , which ye say the papists and quakers do set light by and undervalue ; i say , if to be very busie about the dead bulk , the bare back-side of that book , which contains the scripture , called the bible , if to blesse it , and adorn , and adore the naked body of it , if to do by it little lesse , then all that the papists do in way of honour and exaltation of it to the dead body of their great goddesse the virgin mary , be to honour and value the bible , then ye honour it indeed , but scarcely else ; if to overlay it with gold and curious colours , if to make images and pictures of it , to print it on title pages of their own books in the hands of priests , if to hand it up in paint upon sign posts , ensignes , colours , &c. if to attribute to it many high prerogative titles which are not belonging to it , but to christ the light , and his light alone , as via per quam nos ad deum , deus ad nos ; the saints re'uge , most perfect rule , living word of god , and a score more of the same sort , which it no where takes to it self , which yet who so cannot give it , cannot have the common priviledges due to them with other men in their own native countries ; if to laud the letter more then lead the life which it requires ; if to be ever coming for counsel to it , but never conforming to the counsel of it when it calls you to the light for life ; if to place holinesse , righteousnesse and religion more in a round of reading it , and preaching upon it , then in being and becoming so holy , righteous , religious & unspotted of the world as it requires ; if to spare no cost in printing , re-printing , binding , beautifying , buying bibles of all sorts and sizes , storing all studies , libraries and houses therewith ; if to carry them about under your arms ; if to hold them up in your hands out of the pulpit ore a soft cushion while ( till the glasse be run ) you collate thereon ; if to be more critical in coting , and punctual in noting this proof and t'other about the practice of piety , then to practice the piety therein approved ; if to be loud and clamorous for this or that more corrected copy of it , against these or those that are more corrupted ; if to have it in so high esteem , and account , as to count it one of the most gainful commodities that men can trade in , or get money by ministring out of ; if to cry it up , and make no small stir about it , as demetrius the silver-smith , who by making shrines for her brought no small gain to himself and his fellow craftmen , who by that craft had their wealth , did about their image diana , which fell down from iupiter , who with the workmen of like occupation , cried out , full of wrath , of the greatnesse of their goddesse , against such as they could not prove to be blasphemers of her , for fear least there should be a despising and d●stroying of that more then fit magnificence they magnified her withal by promoting of the truth , and so their craft be in danger to be set at naught ; if to vindicate it with as much v●hemency in long self-confounding . scripture defending discourses , crude indigested , self-confuting divinity disputations ( such as i. o's . ) from that real right , which is done it by its rightest friends the quakers , who vindicate it from that real wrong that is done to it by its forenamed ( not so much nominal as real ) fox-like foes ; if to decry them , who decry those , that in workes deny it , as decryers of it , like such as use to cry whore first against honest matrons , left their own whoredoms by them discryed , should be discovered ; if manually and verbally , more then mentally and vitally to advance and extol it ; if so to advance , extol and value it , as to detrude , deride , and vi●ifie that light it came from , which was before , and is above it for the sake of it ; if to make your boasts of the letter , and yet thorow breaking the law , that is laid down in it , to dishonour god , whose name is blasphemed among turks at this day by the lawlesse lives of some letter tawding christians ( which turks if you bid them lesse for what they sell , then at first they ask , will say , what belike you think i am a christian that ask more then i mean to take ) if to wear out your wretched dayes , spend your precious hours , spinne out your whole lives in speaking of , and for it , and one to another about it , in scrambling and scraping , and scribling , for the meer skull of the scripture ; if to be obstinately obstreperous in peevish prittleprattles for every little letter , particle , point , trivial title and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of it ; if to tear and tire yourselves and others in toylesome treatises about the integrity of the external ( non-original ) original text of it ; if to transgresse beyond the bounds of all sense and reason , and transcend the measure of all modesty and truth in talk of the infallible truth of fallible mens meer fallible transcripts of it out of the original text of all , which ye confesse is not now in being , and that in every apex and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of it , as thou i. o. dost ; if to be ( as thou in the first page of thy preface sayest some of you are to good ( but i say to little purpose ) almost every day in commendation of the scripture , and exhortation to the study of it ; if like stoicks to stand studying in it with your own natural understandings without the life and spirit which only opens it , till ye commence stocks , staves and stones , sottish priests that forget the law of their god , lost from it by looking for it in the letter of it , and in the wood of your own wisdom together , yea ( antitipically ) those very stocks at which yet the people , who are likepeople-like-priest , ask counsel , their staff which declareth error to them ye teacher of lyes , the stock and the dumb-stone to which ( wo to them ) the vain people say . thou art my father , thou hast begotten me , awake , arise thou shalt teach , jer. . . hos. . , , . heb. . , . if to comment at large upon it ; if to load the world , and lead it into a laborynth with your infinite labourings and illiterate labours about the literal sense of it , and endlesse endeavours to explain it , till ye make it more intricate by your opposite expositions , and that in such very places , which to any ( save such light haters , as standing in their own light cannot see wood for trees ) are as plain as the nose on a mans face ; if to claw it , and call it lydium lapidem , a true undeceivable , fixt , sure , and inalterable standing touchstone , and disown those as dishonourers of it , who ( in words ) compare it to a nose of wax , a lesbyan rule , and yet ( in your own works ) so to make it , by bending and bowing it every one to his own blind invention , so as to cause it to stand nine wayes at once , and to propound not only how possibly , but also how facile it is to wrest it into as many various lections by the advantage of the hebrew character as can be in the most flexible writing in the world , or any critick can invent ( as thou i.o. teachest in thy epistle ) if to play legerdemaine with it , so as in a presence of valuing it , to say great matters of it , and then to depresse it so as to unsay them again , and then to run the rounds and say them again , as thou i.o. often dost ; if to boyse it up into that honourable title of the living word of god , and again to hurle it down into that more temperate term , which yet ye will not endure others to term it by of a dead letter , and yet ( to go round again ) horrendo percussis scotomate , after that to say its living , and no where said to be dead ; if to deal so worthily with it as to affirm it to be perfect as to its own end , and fall out with such as deny it so to be , as no quakers do that i know of , and then from the same hand-writing that before affirmed it , to deal so unworthily with it as to deny it so to be ( as if i.o. doth not my eyes are out , but if he do , he will surely say his own were not well open when he did so ) if to say its profitable to its end , and that its end is to make men perfect , and yet to say no man is made perfect in this world , in which only the scripture is confessed to be of use , nor till the world to come , where it s granted to be of no use , & cannot profit at all ; if thus to tosse it to and again like a tennis ball in a confused , self-contradictory kind of talk , sometimes telling the truth about it , sometimes belying it , sometimes giving both it , and the lyar himself the lye , who so belyed it ; sometimes , yea often lying against and alwayes living beside the holy truth , and doctrine itself declared by it ; if to exceed in setting forth its self evidencing excellency , in avouching its divine authority and power to command men in the name of god as his word , and yet never to come under the power of its commands , so as yield obedience thereunto , if to call it your rule , and yet never submit to be ruled by it ; if both to overvalue and to undervalue , to lift up and cast down , to honour and dishonour it , be truly indeed to value , exalt and honour the scriptures ; if all the particulars above enumerated , and many more of the same sort that might be instanced in by induction , be in heart , word and deed so to do , then i shall yield the scripture to be as much so valued , honoured and exalted in this ever-reforming , never-reforming nation of england as among papists , or any other nation whatsoever , and by our self separating , sensual , literal , antiscriptural , anti-spiritual , high notional professors , as well as by the best national protestants that are therein , and by i.o. himself , and his reverend fellow students ( if they study and value it at the same rates with himself ) as much as any i know : finally , if this be very highly to value it , to be alwayes charging , challenging , and calling out for the allowance of large and liberal maintenance * & augmentation of means , by all means possible , out of all mens possibilities for the ministers , not of the spirit , but of the letter only , as those of mens making are , who steal words enough from thence , cut of which , together with what of their own they patch them up with into one or two hours piece of work in a week to pick out a living by , and if that be to value it , or esteem it , or prize it , or rate it high , or set much by it , or make much of it to sell every sermon , so stole , and made but on some one verse of it ( and yet some make so much of one verse as to make many sermons on it , stretching it out , for ease-sake , to hold out the running of many glasses ) for shillings a sermon , and more money , and to have and to hold some hundreds , at least one hundred of pounds , for at most one hundred of sermons ; i say if this be to make much of the scripture , there is more made of it in one year by our divines , and doctors of divinity ( amongst whom i.o. was once none of the last nor least , as to valuing and making much of it ) then ever was by all the quakers in the world since that nick-name began , who yet , if to make much of it be to live in the light as the letter itself exhorts to do , do make more of it that way in a year , then all those priests and prophets that preach it for hire , and divine out of it for money or ever have done since the world began , or ever will do while it hath a being . so that howbeit thou i.o. in thy hostile mind representest the quakers as hostes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , enemies and haters of the scriptures , there 's no such matter ; for if they be haters of it that hate to be reproved by it , and cannot endure the sound doctrine delivered in it , which is according to godlinesse ; the letter hath no such haters of it as the very ministers of the letter are , who are ever enmity against the life , light and spirit it calls to walk in ; and if they may be said to love it , who are livers according to it , the very letter itself hath no such true lovers of it , as the quakers , who are in thy blind zeal hated by thee , as haters of it , for living that life it calls for . as to thy tale of our striving to thrust the scripture from its own place in the church of god , it s as true a tale as its fellow false ones ; for though we set christ and his inward light , living word , and life-giving spirit only on the throne in the church , yet we own and establish the scripture , which is but the meer letter in its proper place , wherein it is to stand ( since it had its being ( as so ) from the other ) as subservient , and subordinate to the other , which are its betters , and its elders , and not as such a dominus fac iotum as thou makest it , as if those that gave being to it , must now come under it so as to stand barely at the bar before it to be tryed by it , while it sits in supream authourity on the bench , as the most perfect , infallible touch stone , lydius lapis , and standing rule ( for no lesse , but much more thou wouldest have it , even light , rule of trial , iudge , witnesse , and all ) to which all spirits , even gods own , that gave it out , as well as all false ones , must stand , or rather stoop , and submit to be judged by , and the foundation which the church , or world in the world , or wheel in a wheel must stand , or else fall and fail for ever ; for as there was a time wherein the church ( which is but one from abel till now , & can have but one and the same rule , bottom and foundation for ever , and one rock on which its built , which is neither peter , nor paul , nor any of their writings , nor of any prophets that wrote afore them , but christ the light to the nations , and the rock of ages and generations ) was without it , and not placed upon it , so there was a time of thousands of years together wherein it had no place , nor use at all in the church , nor so much as any being in the world ; and as for such high place as thou in thy own will now alowest it ( as it s own ) as wise and quick-sighted as thou art to know and see non entities , and things that never were at all , i know no such place that god ever set it in , nor time , when he so super-eminently exalted it ; and though i acknowledge , and am not ignorant ( as thou art ) that meer men and blind builders ( as seeing as thyself ) have canonized it into the head of the corner , laying him aside , whom god hath made so , yet i am to learn , and so art thou ( for all thy hasty teaching it , as truth , to others ) where ever the bare letter or scripture ( which is all one ) was created into such a lord , as thou lookest on it to be , over his inward light & spirit in the heart , and authorized so infinitely , as thou imaginest , over all things by the lord god of heaven and earth , the only author and creator of all things . * j.o. not only to detrade the scripture from its place , but also that by that one only device of denying to the scripture that glorious title of the word of god , the quakers aim and endeavour to divest christ himself of his personality and divine being . reply . was ever man left of god to shew his own folly by more palpable & apparent absurdities , then thou here utterest , who by that very thing , whereby we seek to invest christ with the proper and peculiar right both in name and nature , whereof your selves rob him , belyest us , so as to say we thereby seek to divest him of it ? is not the word of god not only the proper name ioh. . rev. . but also the proper nature and divine being of christ , which he had before he was made flesh , from the very beginning before the scripture was , that declares of him , before world it self was , which was made by him , and all things in it , so that without him nothing was made that was made ? and because that we will not take this glorious title of his , to whom only of right it belongeth , viz. the word of god , who hath no corruptible word that i know but only one , that 's incorruptible and liveth and abideth for ever , and is both essentialiter and effective and enunciative too the word of god , and invest such a corruptible thing herewith as the mouldring letter , a writing with mens hands , which worms may eat , and mens hands blot out , deface , and destroy ; and because we will not attribute that everlasting name of his , to that which in nature is not everlasting ( as ye do ) but decaying ; dost thou say we divest him of his divine being ? dost thou not beget this bastardly businesse of divesting christ himself of his divine name and nature , excellency and existence in thy own brain , by ascribing these to the scriptures , and giving the glory thereof to another under that high prerogative title of the word of god , due only and alone to him , and not to any letter , that man , as moved by him , writes of him , and then lay it at the door of the quakers ? art not thou the man that appropriatest that name and nature , which is proper to christ alone , to the scripture , by disputing as to name and thing in esse reasi cognoscibili , that it is the word of god , & that glorious title is its proper name ? and is not this what in you lyes to dethrone christ , who only is so , and place another ever him as the only most , perfect light , foundation , touchstone , by which his spirit must be tryed ) and yet accusest thou the quakers of displacing him ? doth not the scripture say that christ is the light , which the church ministerially is to hold out & bear witness to ( ioh. ) in all her preachings , administrations and walkings , and the scripture is written out for the sake , and instruction , and profit or use and service of the church , tim . , . cor. . yet settest not thou the letter above the church and christ too , saying , page . the scripture is light , it is the duty of every church to hold it up , almost the whole of its duty ; and this duty it performs ministerially , not authoritatively . a church may bear up that light , it is not the light ; it bears witnesse to it , but kindles not one divine beam to further its discovery : all the preaching that is in any church , its administration of ordinances , all its walking in the truth hold up this light ? thus magnifying the letter above all , and making it the main businesse of the church to magnifie and hold it up , much what as the iewes do , whose work in their synagogues is to lift up the letter , while they loath the law and the light it came from , and is but the meer letter or writing of ? j. o. the whole truth of the words of god is as to name and thing opposed by the poor fanatical quakers ; satan in these dayes assaults the sacred truth of the word of god in the poor deluded fanatical souls among us commonly called quakers . reply . it was none but satan himself that is a lyar , & the father of it who told thee so , and in thee tells it out for truth to the whole world ; for , . the whole word of god , which is but of one , & not of many kinds , that i know of , as thou wouldest make it , as if god had one living , one dead , one fallible another infallible , one corruptible another incorruptible , one eternal , one temporal word ; one that 's only letter , another that 's spirit and life ; one written , and another unwritten ; one within men , and another , that 's not the same in nature , without men ; that one and the same individual word of god , i say , which is the same , whether within or without , written or unwritten , neither of which the bare writing is , as to both name and thing we own and honour , as that which from everlasting to everlasting is unchangeably authoritative over all , inviolably pure , every way entire and absolutely perfect as god is , whose word it is , and so we assault it not in its name , nor in the thing , as thou sayest ; for we know and never did yet deny ( unlesse 't were before we knew it , and while we were the same with you , who yet know it not , nor never heard it from his own mouth ) the word of god to be the word of god ; and also though thou scandalize us so grossely as to say satan sets us on work to bereave the scripture of the glorious title of the word of god , as its own proper name ; that . is also false , for at the will of god , and in service and obedience to him , and not of satan , we strip the meer letter of that glory , wherewith thou unduly dost invest it , and take it down from that high throne and authority , wherein satan sets thee on work to set it up , ●that men may do homage to it , and so run a whoring after it from the word of life it only points at , as israel did after the brazen serpent , and dance about it in their idolatrous hearts as the god that must save and deliver out of egypt . but , . were that true , yet howbeit we own the word of god to be as truly and properly called the word of god as in truth it is so , and give to that still its own due proper name of the word of god somewhat more then yourselves do , who call that by the name of , and make that title of the word of god the very proper name of another thing , which is not it , but as inferiour to it , as the effect is to the cause it came from , viz. the outward letter * or scripture , that came forth from it , and is but a copy and declaration or images of it , as much in worth and dignity below it , as the painted picture of a fire or a man on a wall is to the true fire or person which they do but outwardly represent . and . as for the writing or scripture , which thou sayest we deprive of its proper name , because we call it not the word of god , and by all those glorious titles and epithites thou stilest it by , which we confesse are due to the word , ( viz. ) light , living , powerful , quickning , foundaiton , most perfect rule , and many more , as we shall see anon , thou sayest most falsly in that , for these are as truly due , so properly due to , and the proper names of the word it self only , of which the writing is but a writing or meer scriptural declaration , and not the proper name , nor properties of the scriptures . i.o. thou tellest , ep. pag. . that the whole truth about the word of god ( which thou falsly slanderest us as confusedly opposing ) thou hast endeavoured to comprize in thy theses . reply . thy asserting that the scripture ought to be called the word of god as its proper name , and that it is in esse reali & cognoscibili the word of god , and known so to be , and consequently the light , foundation , rule , and whatever else the word is known to be , which is the main matter thou affirmest and puzlest thy self to prove against us , is so far from being the whole truth about the word of god , that it hath no truth at all in it , but in plain truth is wholly a lye , in esse reali & cognoscibili also , to all , but such as know not ( as thy self dost not in this point ) either what they say , or whereof they affirm . j. o. thou sayest thou compleatest in thy theses the doctrine of the scripture , concerning the scripture . reply . thy doctrine concerning the scripture , which is , that it is the word of god , and known so to be , and is to be called , or else it s stript out of its own proper name ; this is not the doctrine of the scripture concerning it self , but thy own doctrine which though thou dignifie it with the title of pro scripturis in thy latine title page , is more con & anti , then either cum or pro ; yea , much more against , then either according to , or for the scriptures . * i.o. thou speakst of the quakers as altogether rejecting the word of god , i. e. ( with thee ) the scripture as to its whole use , & of spoiling the holy scriptures of all vse , authority & perfection ; * and as those who if things had succeded according to their desires , would no doubt long since have have utterly rejected them . yea , as those , who wish them quite blotted out , that all men might more attend to the light within themselves . reply . though what use , authority and perfection the scripture is owned by us to be of , will appear more anon in its proper place , yet that we deny it not to have an authority and perfection and precious use i here declare to the undeceiving of such as are deceived by thy deceits and lyes ; much lesse do we reject , as thou falsly objects against us , the word of god it self , which is a greater matter , and of more moment then the scripture , as to its whole vse ; and in proof of it against thy self , that we own the very bible and letter to be of use , and do also much use it as occasion is , i shall here cite i o. to give account to i.o. of this lye , that against i.o. i o. himself hath forged . yea , i shall go no further at present then to thy self , who ( as in at least twenty things more in thy self-confounding fardel thou dost ) confutest thy self as to this lye , in those very parcels above quoted . for mark , art not thou the man , who as brisk as thou art in bedirting us with this slander of rejecting the scripture ( which thou falsly callest the word of god ) as to all its use , its whole use , and that altogether , could we have had our wills , yet to the contradicting of thy self which is as ordinary with thee as to eat and drink , confessest and commendest us thus far before all ? as follows in thy latine piece , where thy words englished are to this purpose ; ex. . s. . that the quakers professe the holy scriptures to contain a certain revelation of gods will , and so far to have come forth from god as it proceeded from that inward light which was from christ in those who wrote those books which ye name the scriptures . and ex. . s. . that the quakers acknowledge the scriptures to contain a manifestation of the will and mind of god , both in respect of those who wrote them , and of those also to whom they were delivered from the beginning ; and that this declaration therein held , proceeded from the spirit of christ which was so with the writers thereof , that they could declare the infallible truth ; and that the things written therein are an undoubtedly true declaration of the mind of god ? and dost thou not add thus much , that thus far we are right , and that none that own them thus far , can altogether reject the scriptures , unlesse he will declare himself to be self-condemned , and that we will not easily yield to a renouncing of this confession ? is all this then that thy self confessest of us the quakers , whom thou condemnest for utter rejecting the scripture consistent with such an utter rejecting it as thou chargest them with ? dost not here clear the quakers out of thy own mouth , out of which thou condemnest them , for the same thou clearest them in , to the condemning of thy self to be one out of whose one and the same mouth comes to the same men , blessing and cursing , excusing and accusing for the same thing ? doth any good fountain send forth sweet water and bitter at the same time ? is not thy tongue an unruly member , which thy self can'st tame no better then therewith to blesse god , and men too that are made after gods image , as owners of the scriptures , and yet to curse them with thy lyes as denyers thereof when thou hast done ? art thou not herein right baalam like , who for the preferments-sake from which god kept him , would sain have cursed israel with his divinations as thou dost with thy divinity disputations , and yet was against his will forced to forbear , and to his own shame to blesse them altogether ? object . oh but ( quoth i.o. ) no matter what the quakers confesse of the scripture now ; no doubt had things fallen out accordinn to their desire , and if people could have born the denyal of it , who bore such respect to the scripture , that they would have flown with fury on the quakers pates , if they should have seemed to deny it , the quakers from whom the fear of that more then the force of truth forces that confession , proculdubiò jamdudum rejecissent , had doubtlesly rejected them utterly long ago , ex. . s. . reply . this is not so true not well-grunded a surmise as this , viz. no matter how the priests fawn , own the kings , protectors , parliaments or powers still that are in present being , to save their standings in their present places and preferments ; no heed's to be given to their crouchings cringing and humble representations ; no doubt but as things fall out , and succeed to the serving of their interest , they will turn still to what best serves their turns , and have , exceptis excipiendis , been generally known to have done so now long ago , even from henry the eighths time to this very day . as for the quakers , could they have dissembled so as ye do for fear of mans fury , they might have escaped many , if not all those furious fallings of your bloudy mad-brain'd parish-professors upon their pares , and have saved oxford and cambridge that labour & pains , they more like fiends , then friends of truth , have been at to persecute them long since also . again . i.o. dost not thou say 't is evident enough that some of us read the holy scripture in private , or at least remember what we have read or heard out of it , and for the most part carry the holy bible about with us , and that in our digladiations or disputes we very often rehearse and urge the words of the scriptures ; and that the reason why we own translations is , because being not learn'd farther then our mother tongue , we shall then deprive our selves of all use of the scriptures , which we are loath to do ? which of these two i o's . must we believe ? or if it be but one i.o. ( as no doubt it is ) divided against himself , and telling two contrary tales , whereof but one can be true ; which of his two testimonies must men give credit to ? that wherein he sayes we strive to bereave men of all vse of the scripture , and count it odious and abominable to have heresies , errour , false doctors and doctrines convicted and confuted out of it ; or that clean contrary one , wherein he tells all men that we use it so as to read it in private , remember what we read , or hear of it ; carry it about with us , use it , and urge out of it in our disputes , and are shy of denying it to be translated into english for our use , least we should be deprived of all that vse of it our selves , which we are willing to make . for my part , let others do what they will , i have found i.o. telling so many lyes , when in his malice , he talkes against the quakers , that i shall rather take that for truth now , which against his envious lying self he here talks for them ; for some vse , and that not a little himself here affirms we make of the scriptures ; and in other places quotes many scriptures out of which we argue against our opposers ; and if it be never so little use it s enough to stop his mouth out of his own mouth , who sayes we utterly reject the scriptures as to all its vse , for he that rejects it as to its whole use , or all its use , must be one that makes no use of it at all . and if i. o's . testimony had been only , that we deny many ill uses of it , that himself and other scribes make , that spend and take up more time in scraping and scribling for it , then take care to live the life of it , and that wrest it to their own ruine , he had said the truth ; or had he said we deny many of those good lifes , that many make of it , he had much lessened his lye and his folly in it ; but because we own it not as useful to all those extraordinary , weighty and mighty lifes , which he sayes falsly are to be made of it , which indeed are to be made only of the eternal , internal spirit , word and light it came from ; to say we deny all vses of it , as if it were good , and profitable , and useful , and fit for nothing , this renders his lye the more lyable to all mens view , and himself to be as blind as one that can see no difference between staring and stark mad . what i. o. is that which is not said to be good for all things , thereupon said to be good for nothing ? if i should say soft wax is not useful to stop hot ovens with , must it straitway be thrown away ? and must it be taken for granted , that i say it s not good to seal with , or that its useful for nothing ? that may be good to cut and kill ( as a knife ) that when it hath so done , can't quicken , nor heal , nor save , nor cure ; the letter kills , as an executing instrument , but the spirit only gives the life . and whereas thou sayest we wish it blotted out , that men may come to the light within , in which is the life ; nay stay i. o. no hast to hang true men , we would have all come to the light and life within indeed , no such hast yet of the scriptures going hence though old it will wax once and wear away ; there 's many pretious uses , though not all the eminent ones thou talkest of to be made of it before it go hence ; one whereof is that very thing upon the account of which thou falsly sayest we wish it blotted out , viz. that men may come to the light within , which the scripture is so far from hindering any from coming to ( but only that the blind porers in it with their natural eyes , cannot see wood for trees ) that it sides with us in helping to call people to the light in the heart , which thing is as well the end of its being written , as it was the end of paul , and iohn's , and all the prophets ministry by word of mouth , act . , . ioh. . , , , . and is the end of all our ministring now , as we are moved of the lord , by voice or writing ; the letter bids look to the light , as that which leads on to the life , but both letter and light are a cloud to the egyptians , that pursued them , which to israel , that obeyed it , was a help . and as it serves with us to call to the light , so before it passe away , it must be used against them , to send them packing first that have abused it , as thou hast done , and to accuse as a witnesse against them such as have owned it as their rule and foundation yet lived and built so much ( as ye have done ) beside it . and as christ said to the old scripture - searchingscribes , joh. . that would never come to him the life , whom they testified of ; so say i to you of the same seed , do not think that christ by his light , within you only , whereby ye are made as all men are , who have not the law in a letter , a law before god to your selves , will accuse you to the father , ye have another that accuses you for your vanities and deceits , even moses and the apostles and prophets writings , in whom ye trust to get life ; for if you had believed them , you would not have belyed , but beleeved in and obeyed the light and word in the heart , which they call you to , for the scriptures testifie of that ; but fith you believe not their testimony to the light , how can we look that by our words ye should come to believe in the light it self . so that ye stand condemned , and must be judged by the law or light within , as well as such as are without the law in a letter without ; and fining under and against the law in the letter , by the very letter of the law , throw boasting , and yet breaking of which , ye dishonour god much more then the heathen do , rom. . ye must be condemned also . so that the scripture is of much use yet , and we are free it should stand , and not be blotted out , that by the testimony of it , which is one and the same with ours to the light , ye might be ( if yet it may be ) brought to look to the law of christ , which ( and not the letter ) is the light and life ; but if you will not come to christ and his light in you , that ye may have the life ; it s all of a price to you , whether the scripture stand or be blotted out , for your names are not ( while ye are enemies to the light ) written there for life , but as yet blotted out even by the scripture , while it abides unblotted out , from under heaven . i.o. ex. . s. . thou sayest , the quakers little regard the understanding of the scripture , and this is one of their eminent deceits so long as they have the words they are well enough without the sense , as nothing appertaining to them . reply . saving i. o's . fine figment in this matter , which may be more manifested in its proper place , howbeit we are well satisfied without so many several silly senses and mis-meanings of it , as are ministred cut by the unlearned ministers , that know not the mind of the lord , nor ever shall , while they lean to their own meer natural empty understandings , and lye-poring in the letter , as they do without the spirit , which only receives and reveals the deep things of god , and opposing the light that only opens it , yet we are not against the true sense and meaning of the spirit , which expounds the mysteries , and shews the secrets thereof to those few babes that fear the lord , which are hidden from the worldly wise and prudent ; but whether the renowned rabbies preach for prize , or hold their peace , we neverthelesse still have true meanings and mind of christ. i.o. ex. . s. , . that they affirm it is not lawful for any to interpret the scriptures , or give the sense thereof . and , s. . that altogether with the interpretation it self , they reject , damne , curse all mediums of opening scriptures , the weighing the words and phrases , and daily prayer ; and comparing of divers places together ; that the opening of hard places , the clearing and proving of the truth , the conviction and confutation of heresies , errours , false doctors and doctrines , the edifying any by instructions and exhortations , and all the other ends of lawful interpretation of the scriptures , are odious and abomination to them ; they not only prosecute with enmity all expositions of the scripture by word of mouth in private families , meetings , churches , schools of believers , to the opening of the sense of the word , and the giving of knowledge by the scripture it self , but also as little esteem and most childishly defame both commentaries , and all other books wherein part of the scripture is interpreted , or any truth cleared or confirmed out of it ; or the faithful perswaded by exhortations to holinesse , and gospel obedience , or men are instructed in any other manner whatsoever in the knowledge of god. reply . whether all these stories of i.o. which i have here put together , do more savour of the french galimafrey , or wild-irish bonni-clabber , i 'le not determine ; but i am sure they are an unsavoury mess of omnigatherums , made up of many sorts of lying reproaches , that have no consistency with the truth , which would far better have become a doctor of divinity to have told of the devil himself , had he been accusing of him , who is the false accuser of the true brethren , rather then such a legend of lyes as lye here legenda , legible to all that know them , of the quakers . i cannot say of this indeed , as of t.d. his doings in his way of sharp shooting out his false tales against us , that it will sound much to our shame in a countrey church , because it s well nigh all laid out , not to say lyed out in the latine tongue ( though only englished here ) but it will ring such a peal in the university colledges , among the iunior sort of haters of whom god loves , and among all ( save the lack-latine-country-clergy men ) against the quakers , as will make them prick up their ears and listen ( that they may learn how to lye against them also ) more then ever they did to the quakers themselves , that of them they might learn the truth ; but the best on 't is , though here 's a nest of them together , if that would do any good to i.o. or hurt to the quakers , yet by lyes and deceits none ever did , or ever must prevail against the truth . yet to all this thou addest , that we turn the church of god into a hogsty ; and that we are great reproachers of that divine goodnesse that gave it , in setting so slight by interpretations of the scripture in order to the understanding of it : to all which yet i shall answer no otherwise then thus briefly and soberly as followes . viz. we acknowledge gods goodnesse in giving it , and deny not all exposition of the matters in it , provided it be by them , as they are so moved , that live in the light and spirit of god that gave it forth by holy men , which onely opens it aright and knows its own , and searcheth the deep things of god , that are laid down in it , in the writings and meetings and churches and schools of the saints and believers ( which wot you well are not your christ-church colledges nor academical covents , but the quakers publick congregations , where i have sometimes had and heard more scripture truly opened in an hour , than in some steeple houses in a year , any more than we do any true translations of it out of our tongue into another , of which matter about translation sith thou sayest we covertly conceal our counsel , thou mayest have it more fully perhaps anon , when i have first wiped away all thy lyes of us out of the way . but because we do indeed , though owning the spirit and spiritual mens expositions , yet deny the naturally wise mens cloudy conceptions , mysty meanings , shallow-brain'd senses , and excentrick expositions , of the things of the spirit , which he knows not , as they lye in the letter which he knows as little , as useful or profitable , much more as so necessary as thou wouldest make this natural mans mighty doings about the scripture , who is he indeed and not the quakers that for want of such spiritual learning as naturally unlearned peter had , wrests it into strange senses to his own ruine , and because we do not childishly ( as thou sayest we do ) but soberly and justly complain of those vast confused bombasting bumbles of blindnesse of the cloudy clergies composing , viz. comentaries and other books thrust out upon pretence of clearing the scripture , which is clearer then they are , but in truth to the thickening of the ayr , that the sun shines not clearly thorow it , thereupon to say that we reject , damn and curse all manner of opening scripture , and that of daily prayers to god ; this is a businesse of thy own bruiting about , whereby to render us odious among thy oxonian fellow students , that they may reject and damn and curse them thence whom god hath not cursed , and against whom none of baalams inchantments can prevail : for we own the daily prayers of such as god owns , who pray in the spirit , though we know god hears not sinners , nor the prayers of the wicked , nor of such as turn their ear from hearing his law , which is light , in their own hearts , their prayers are abomination to him : and we own the openings of the scripture by the spirit that gave it forth , when he opens the mouth or guides the pens of any that have the minde of christ to utter any of it , as it lies in the letter hid from the natural mind , unto others ; and to say this is to turn the church into a hogsty , as if there could possibly by no religion nor good manners nor sheep like innocent demeanour , nor any thing but meer bruitishnesse , beastlinesse and swinishnesse any where in the world , but where men sit under the ministry of the preachings , logical expoundings , writings , ecclesiastical rhetorick and other reacks of those fleshly and earthly minded spiritual men , doctors and commentators , &c. that have long ago got the parent and ingrossed all that work of expounding scripture for money to themselves ; this i utterly dény , and i also affirm that if that crew and their creatures be the christians , and the church of god ( as they call themselves , as if the quakers were all hereticks , that do not own them ) then the more ado men make to be christians in name , the further off from the nature of christ , and as the old proverb is , the nearer the church , the further from god , there being nor such fordid stinking sinks for wickednesse , filth , pride , lust , persecution , scoffing , hating god and good , ungodlinesse and all manner of uncleannesse to be seen in all the christian world again , as are easie to be seen in cathedrals , colledges , academies , &c. where men sit at the fountains and well-heads of divinity and nurseries of learning and religion ( as they call them ) and directly under the daily dispensations of their doctors oral and scriptural divinity disputations and expositions . and whereas i o. makes a challenge to have it tryed between them and the quakers , saying in the next section after that , wherein he saves the quakers sleighting their interpretations do no lesse than turn the church into a hogsty , thus * j. o. for if the experience of all ages of all christians that ever were , if those things which themselves see , behold , or hear daily , were of any weight or moment , they , the quakers , would blush to deny the use , necessity , and fruit of the solemne preaching of the word , interpretation of the scripture made whether by word of mouth , or writing : let us take a view of each flock , both that , which although they enjoy the word , yet is destitute of its interpretation and also that which , together with the word of god , enjoyes also the other means of gods worship , which consists very much in the interpretation of the word ; if now the tree be so , & be known only by its fruits , then that will appear the good one , which hath brought forth those fruits which the legal interpretation of the scripture hath every where produced , or brought forth . reply . let it be well heeded , first , that by the word of god here , i o. intends the scripture ; and secondly , that by legal interpretation he intends not such as is ( as i said before ) used and own'd by the quakers , ( viz. ) that which is only in the light , and in the spirits movings , that moved to write the scripture , but such as is made among the naturalists and schollars in their academical imaginations , and by the priests in their parishes , and then i am here ready to answer his challenge , and i say a match , let it be so . first , let both flocks be viewed , the quakers , and the parish people ; i will not say but that among them that are called quakers , that frequent the places of their publick speaking , there are many , not only by reason of whom , but also by whom the way of truth that the quakers walk in , is evil spoken of ; but i o. either hath , or should have more wit , and sense , and reason , then to account the routs , that are made by a rabble of rude ones that frequent the quakers meetings , to render them odious with their odious carriages , to the quakers themselves ; that he ought , non trepidantibus sed tripudiantibus vitio vertere , qui vertunt seria ludo , & ludunt cum sacris , &c. to impute not to the quakers , but to schollars , and apprentices , and prateis , and players , and ungodly scoffers , and children of the devil , that make a mock and a may game of holy matters , and would never band so bitterly against the quakers and their meetings , if there were not something of god in both : secondly , in their meetings there may be some antick tricks done by some that have run out from the truth and lost their conditions , and being not stedfast in their watch to the light , have degenerated into darknesse and delusion ; by whom some things have been done , and many more then t.d. mentions , that are not owned by the quakers , to whom , they are wise men the while , that blame the quakers for it , who can't prevent it , as vice-chancellors and proctors might young schollars rudeness , and magistrates the peoples bruitishnesse in parishes , but will not . and thirdly , in the silent meetings of the quakers , there may be some that get no further then the outward form of godlinesse , and not grow out into the power ; and here and there one that may be over-taken with a fault , which if they be , it shall be found with a witnesse by the wicked , that watch for their halting , and will make more of one malefactor that 's found among all the quakers , then of drunkards , swearers , cursers , scurrilous scoffers and scorners , gamesters , couzeners , cheaters , lyars , laughers , light-talkers , and lewd-livers in a parish ; and then many scores of high-way-men , theeves , fellons , murderers , and hainous malefactors that are hanged and trussed-up every year , that live and die under the ministry of the church of england . but make the worst that can be made of the quakers crimes , if they were fold worse then they are , or rather single out the very excrements and dreggs that depend that way , to say something against ; yet hoc astquid nihitest , that something is nothing in comparison of that open prosessed prophannesse and iniquity that abounds beyond the bounds of modesty , yea of ordinary immodesty , and of impudency it self among the parish people , where there is such a constant custom , and deal of expounding of , and preaching from the scrirture by the ministerss of their own meanings , upon it ; in which meer anthropo theological labours of the clergy , the extraordinary high acceptance of which , by the powers , and parliaments , and priests each from other is expressed and accosted ordinarily with the common complement of great thanks for their great pains ; and as eminently fruitful and profitable as thou professest it to be , it is evidently more profitable to the preachers purses , then the peoples persons , whether we consider the bereavings of poor mens bodies of their right , or the successelessnesse of thereof to their souls , which from year to year , are little or nothing the better for the blasted ministry of these word-stealing money-mongers , and self-sending prophets , which the lord is against , as fast as they run in his name , and blesses not , but sayes they shall not profit people at all ; and as apparent it is they do not , as 't is that god sayes they shall not . for from generation to generation , what fruit is found in the parish churches of the popes constituting ? and what successe to sanctification and salvation from sin , by the great pains of the successive sermonists of several sorts , that simonically have got their gifts at university , and as freely given them out , as they have freely received them ( if so to do be to sell them for more money then they cost them there ) is seen by the true seers , who can see little l●sse ungodlinesse , and worldly lusts , and moral wickednesse , since the old homilies were read by the non-preaching animatum curates were succeeded by the powerlesse preachers , that are more reformed from the more grosse idolatry and superstitions of those dismal seasons . is there any parish any better mannered then in ages above ? doth not every priest that hath stood , years in his parish , leave it for the most part as blind , ignorant , dissolute , lascivious , rev●lling , riotous , luxurious as he found it ? whether he dies among them , or departs from them to a bigger booty ? a coming together there is for customes sake in their best cloathes , as finely as they can afford to do , when their ( supposed ) sabbath comes about in its turn ; a sound comes from a money-merchants mouth , and enters in at one ear of the people , as fast as it can get out at the other ; and while it stayes , it swims in the head , but sinks not down to renew the heart ; and some psalms may be sung to the praise of him , whom the dead in sin , that live sin , cannot praise ; and so there 's an end of the businesse for that day , till it come again ; till when , hell breaks loose , and the devil is served for the most part all the week after ; insomuch that it is but for the kettle to upbraid the pot with its black ugly hue , for the priest and his people to make narratives of the worst of that naughtinesse , that is found anong the very worst of those that are own'd as one in fellowship by the quakers , and their ministry . secondly , let both flocks he viewed ( viz. ) the young and old schollars at universities ( to begin near home at oxford and cambridge ) behold those that sit under your grave divine doctorly expositions , and at the ocean of books that are bound down ( beside what a number each hath in his private musing place ) by your library benches , and the quakers that sit in silence , and wait only on the lord ; let both flocks be tryed by their fruits , and see which most resembles christ ; and whether the quakers carriage , or the schollars , since the quakers came among them , have been most innocent , vninjurious , and harmlesse ; and which look most like the swine , wolves , bears , tygars , &c. and which most like the fold and lambs of christ. and which of these two ( viz. ) the quakers that have the word , and yet are retired from you to wait upon god alone for their teaching , and to learn of him at his own mouth and light in silence in all subjection , not making such a noise as ye empty casks do in your busie brains about formal set times , set by the will of man , for expositions and interpretations , nor in tumbling ore of tomes , bulkie books , and contentious commentators ; or your selves and your university schollers , that make such an infinite ado in your inventions about interpreting things ( sometimes ) that would be ten fold plainner then they now are , if natural schoolmen had let them alone , who when in aperto & facili posita est salus , the way to life lyes as plainly laid down and declared by the letter in a thousand places , as it does in that one , tit. . , , so that there need be no such heaps of books as there are , more bulky then all the bible , to open some one small book of it , do draw cloudes over the clear face of it by interposing and imposing on people the thicket of your own thoughts , and darken the open counsel of it by your writings without end , and by your words without knowledge . i say , which of these two , the quakers or your schollers , bring forth fruits most meet for god , and like those of the spirit , peace , meeknesse , patience , temperance , &c. gal. . let them be the good trees , and so known and owned to be by their fiuits ; and let them be the true flock of christ , and be by us , as i am sure such are by himself accounted as his sheepfold . and which abounds most in those fruits and works of the flesh there spoken of also , viz. uncleannesse , lasciviousnesse , wrath , hatred , drunkennesse , revellings , and such like ; and which wallows most in that kind of mire , let them be the hogs and swine , and not christs flock and fold , but he held hence forward for a hog-sty . now for my part if i were to judge by what fruits have come forth in and from our two nurseries of religion of latter years , and as well in , and from oxford it self , as cambridge ; and how many of them in the time of i. o's . vice-chancellourship there , i. o. knows as well as i ( even such as are not sit to be named among christians ) and what fruits of righteousnesse have been found among the quakers both there and elsewhere , who have suffered innocently , and ( as to rendering evil for evil ) patiently under them and others , i could quickly determine the matter ; but sith its like i.o. will hardly let me be judge in my own case , lest i cleave too much to my own cause and company , let such books as are extant of the schollers misdemeanours against the quakers in their own meetings , who have been alwayes bound to their good behaviour towards the other by that of god in their consciences in the midst of all their abuses to the quakers ; and then let all men judge which generation of men , the quakers or university schollers and their respective assemblies do most exactly resemble the deportment of swine in their hog-styes . besides those sundry relations that are extant in print of the imprisonments , whippings , and other persecutions of the innocent servants of the lords sending among them to warn them of their wickednesse at cambridge ; there are two at least ( viz. ) one stiled , a true testimony of the zeal of the oxford professors and university-men , put forth by r.h. and one much more lately under the hands of witnesses , stiled , a true relation of some of the sufferings inflicted upon the quakers , as the fruits of the evil doers ( viz. ) the proctors and schollars at oxford , in which who reads may see the matters of fact , to which i refer such as are minded to be judges between me and i.o. ( an oxford man ) in this case , who ( if they be not such as are loath to call their brothers theeves , and their sisters swine ) will assuredly from those arch-abominable and antick-actions conclude from thence with me , the actors and abbettors look much more ( then like the sheep of christ ) like foxes , and bears , and wolves , and dogs , and wilde boares , and swine . however , whether it shall stand with i.o. or nay , it matters not ; i shall from thence infer my conclusion . that if innocency , quietnesse , patience under sufferings , temperance , godlinesse , reproving wickednesse , and becoming fools for christ , exposing themselves for truths ' sake as signs and laughing stocks to an adulterous generation , be the characters of such men , as the scripture calls swine ; then that house and family of the quakers is become a hog-stie ; but unless turning , and tearing , and renting , and trampling , under feet , when pearls and holy things are held out to them ; and devouring , and hurting to death , and tying maids arm to arm together , and tumbling them into graves , and dirting them , and dragging them into pools , and setting them on their heads with their heels upwards , and pumping & well-nigh stifling them , mocking , stoning , scourging , putting poor innocent strangers ( that came in love to truth and them ) into cages , and out of their coasts ; and haling the quakers out of their own quiet meetings by the hair of their heads , and breaking the doors to pieces , and windows where quakers meet , and carrying away the keys , and knocking tenters in the key-holes , pulling up part of the houses , squeezing them in their passing to and fro between the doors , turning up the forms and seats where they sit , and like wild horses and colts riding upon the backs of men and women , and smoaking their roomes with gun-powder & squibs , and stamping rudely like tavern-hunters in their holy meetings , and crying out give us beer and tobacco , and wenches , and whores ; and bringing in strong beer , and drinking to them , and for refusing to pledge , throwing it on their cloaths , and bands , and powring it down their necks , and singing bawdy songs , and cursing , and sweating , and such things as would be counted as favouring more of bedlams and swine , then saints , if quakers should ever have done so in their masse-houses , and obscaene carriage toward women , puffing and blowing with tobacco-pipes in their mouths ; raising doctrines and uses , and points about coblers and tinkers , and tobit and his dog , offering to put their hands under womens aprons , asking if the spirit was not there ; and many more such filthy , stinking , sordid actions , as hooting , yelling , laughing , any thing to hinder the hearing of what was spoken of truth ; drawing some into colledges , and there most unseemly and inhumanly abusing them ; and this not only tolerated and connived at by officers , that should have punish'd it ; but also countenanced too much in part by some of them . i say , unlesse these boarish , bruitish gestures , cum muliis aliis qua nunc praescribere longum est , be the behaviour of christs sheep , then , for all the uncessant pains of interpreting of the scripture at the well-head of religion , and for all i. o's . saying , that if what we see , and daily hear , would sway us , we would be ashamed to deny the fruit of expoundings of the scripture to be best , where they are most expounded , as they are ( pro forma ) in the universities , as fair and far from it as they seem to be to themselves , they look more like hog-styes to the view of men after gods heart , and the children of these mothers more like herds of swine , then the places and persons of the people called quakers do , among whom there 's not such a busling , and such a businesse about mens books in order to it , nor such clamorous noises about opening the scriptures , as is among the scribes , that are strangers to them ; but the words of the wise , even of wisdom it self , christ iesus , are heard in quiet by them that are wise , more then the cry of him that ruleth among fools . and as for what fruits of saving knowledge of god , and righteousnesse and holinesse of truth are abounding in most academies , towns , cities , and places in all the reformed parts of christendom more or better then is to be seen among turks and heathens ( unlesse couzening , cheating , lying , drunkennesse , and some such like as abound more among christians , then turks that never talk out of the scripture , be better ) hath been seen by some quakers , and how the name of christian stinks more then it would do among the gentiles for the sake of such as preach , and hear , and read , and expound , and boast of the scripture , and yet break them , and name the name of christ without his nature : but what doings there are in other nations , and the preaching places and nurseries thereof , to which these of our nation are not inferiour in silth ; i shall say no more here , but let them passe , as matters which being extra nos , are parum , or nihil , or miaus ad nos , of lesse moment to us then our own ; concluding my return to this particular challenge of i.o. with his own words ( mutatis mutandis , additis addendis ) a little amplified , and the subjects or persons , of whom they are spoken , altered , and substituting our modern academies , and their masters , doctors , divines , and other students , and the whole rabble of rabbies there in the room of that university at tiberias , which i o. talks against in the words of one dr. lightfoot , together with his own , and the iewish rabbies , gemarists and massorites pertaining thereunto ; as they are to be read in the , , , , , , pages of i. o's . english part ; the censure he passes upon them , being no other then what exactly accrews to the universities universally throughout christendom , from whence come the whole crew of clergy-men , that count themselves , and are counted to be the clearers of christs truth to all other christian creatures ; and what i. o. sayes of the massorites of that accademy , is a clear character of these corrupted , and earth corrupting coveats . i. o chap. . s. . whilst they keep the scriptures we shall never want weapons out of their own armoury for their destruction ; like the philistine , they carry the weapon that will serve to cut off their own heads . let us then a little , without prejudice or passion , consider who , or what these men are , who are the supposed authors of all knowledge and godlinesse . . men they are who have not the word of god committed to them in a pecullar manner , as their forefathers , prophets and apostles had of old , and many have now , being no part of his church or people , but are only outwardly professors and possessors of the letter without just right or title to it ; utterly uninteressed in the promise of the communication of the spirit while they so have it , which is the great charter of the churches preservation of truth , isa. . . . men so remote from a right understanding of the word , or the mind and will of god therein , that they are desperately engaged to oppose his truth in the books which themselves enjoy in all matters of importance unto the glory of god , or the good of their own souls from the beginning to the ending , scuffling for the book itself , but persecuting the life in them where it is ; the foundation of whose religion is infidelity ; and one of their chief fundamentals , an opposition to the gospel in the quakers , whom they glory to fight against , and think they serve god in opposing with what spite they can . . men under the special curse of god and his vengeance , upon the account of the blood of his dear son in his saints . . men all their dayes feeding themselves with vain fables , and mischievous devices against the gospel , labouring to set up a new religion under the name of the old ( when the old they hate , as ier. . ) in despight of god , so striving to wrestle it out with his curse to the utmost . . men of a profound ignorance in all manner of learning & knowledge , but only what concerns their own dunghil traditions ; as appears in their stories , filled with innumerable sopperies . . men so addicted to such monstrous figments , as appears in their talmuds , as their successors of after ages will be ashamed of , yea for the most part idolaters . now i dare leave it to the iudgement of any godly prudent person , not addicted to parties and names , who is at all acquainted with the importance , not of the hebrew vowels and accents ( but the light and spirit the quakers call to ) unto the right understanding of the scripture , with whatever influence their present fixation hath into the literal sense , they ( not knowing the spiritual ) embrace , whether we have not very clear evidence and testimony , yea undeniable and unquestionable , to cast the rise and spring of all the irreligion in the nations upon this sort of men ; so far are they from bettering : things by their interpretations . s. . recount i pray from the first foundation of universities ( throw christendom ) and what do you find , but a sort of men being made mad with ( or above ) the pharisees , bewitching and bewitched with traditions , blind , crafty , raging ; pardon me not ( for i shall ask none ) if i say magical ( if simon magus was so in thinking the holy ghost of god is to be bought with money ) & monstrous ? what fools , what sots as to such a divine work as the gospel ? read and consider how to every good work voyd of iudgement the great doctors among them do behave themselves ? how seriously they do of nothing ? how childish they are in serious things ? how much deceitfulnesse , froth , venome , smoke , nothing is in their disputations ? insomuch that i may say truly of these , as i.o. sayes of all men , pag. . those whose lips should keep knowledge , that is university-men and clergy-men as much as any , are by nature so vain , foolish , malicious , such lyars , adders , detracters , have spirits and minds so unsuited to spiritual things , so lyable to alteration in themselves , and to contradiction one to another , are so given to impostures , and are so apt to be imposed upon , have been so shuffled and driven up and down the world in every generation , have for the most part so utterly lost the remembrance of what themselves are , whence they come , or whether they are to go , that i can give very little credit to what i have nothing but their authority to rely upon for , without any evidence from the nature of the thing its self . chap. iii. having cleared the quakers from sundry of those calumnies thou falsly castest upon-them as concerning their carriage toward the scriptures as if they were enemies , haters , and reproachers of it , and such-like , who in truth are its truest friends , in the former chapter ; i come on to consider some of thy cloudy conjectures and conceits concerning the bounds of the canon ( as ye call it ) thereof ; the hebrew punctation , and thy asserted integrity of both that and the greek texts of it , without any variation to a very title : concerning the canon of which thou writest as follows ; john owen . pag. . god spake of old , or formerly in the prophets ; from the dayes of moses and downwards , unto the bounding and consignation of the canon delivered to the judaical church in the dayes of ezra and his companions , the men of the great congregation . reply . . why sayest thou from moses downward , &c. as if he had never done so before till then ? did not god speak in his prophets , and by them to the men of their several ages from moses upwards as well as from moses downwards ? did he not speak in enooh the seventh from adam , in noah , in abraham , isaac , iacob , lot , and iob , who lived before moses ( if catholick tradition be to be credited in one thing as well as another ) and whose book , who ever pen'd it , whether himself , or some other , for ought thou knowest was written before mos●s , who thou thinkest wrote the first of the scripture , either lived or wrote ? and by them , who were upright , righteous , just , and walked with god , to the wicked unrighteous worldlings , and wantons who walked with the devil in their generations , who all were before moses , as well as by moses , and those that lived after him ? . why sayest thou downwards to the consignation and bounding of the canon in ezra's days , as if between his dayes and the dayes of christs flesh the spirit of the lord was straitned ( as it never is , mic. . ) and god had limitted and bound up himself from manifesting his mind cut of his own mouth , to any men at all , for so many hundred years together , because some prophets had been moved by him to commit to writing , or at least to permit to be written by * others , some few of those things they saw and said concerning partly their own , and partly the after times , and other nations ? doth not wisdom say of her self , that in all ages entering into holy souls she maketh them friends of god , and prophets ? wisd. . . and were there no holy men of god in those dayes , wherein ye imagine all gods speaking in and by any prophets then was ceased , in and by whom he manifested his mind as he moved them to speak and write , as immediately as he had done others before them ? and who told thee , that the canon ( as thou call'st it ) or full standing rule of tryal , or infallible touch-stone of the old testament scripture , to which nothing must or might be added after it till the time of christ in the flesh was compleated , and , after its consignation and bounding , by them delivered to the judaical church in the dayes of ezra ( alias esdras ) and his companions the men ( as of your own heads ye are pleased to term them ) of the great congregation ? whence hast thou these fancies of thine ? or suppose they be not simply suppositions , but real truths ; whence dost thou fetch or take them to be so , but from the untrusty-traditional-tales of thy forefathers , and such iewes as are little lesse then unerring oracles with thee , when saying ought that suits with thee ( yea , thou callest pag. . the assertion of iustin martyr of the iewes corrupting the bible out of their hatred to christians , an incredible figment ) yet little better , but much worse then ordinary infidels , men feeding themselvns with vain fables , desperate cursed opposers of truth , mischievous in their devices against the gospel , of a profound ignorance in all manner of learning and knowledge but only what concerns their own dunghil traditions , addicted to monstrous figments , bewitching , bewitched with traditions , idolaters , magicians , blind , crafty , raging fools , sets , full of deceitfulness , froth , venome , smoke , nothing but faithlesnesse and infidelity it self ; what not that 's nought , where any thing issues from their most catholick testimony that makes against thee , pag . . . ? yea , whence knowest thou ( who art easily apt to question , when it serves thee so to do , whether there ever were such men as the . and such men as the tiberian massorites in rerum natura ? pag. . . ) that ever there was such a thing in rerum naturâ as that great congregation thou art every where in thy book so greatly taken with , and ever and anon betaking thy self to for refuge , but only from thy putting more confidence in thy own uncertain conjectures , together with the catholick tradition of the ( with thee ) creditlesse iewes and christians , then in the conjectures of the prolegomenâ , as learned as thy self at least , who oppose thee in it ? for there 's not so much as any scripture at all that mentions such a set sanydrim of ezra , nehemia , ioshua , zacharia , haggai , &c. as thou settest it down in the book of thy own brain , and the counting-house of thy own conceit that there was ; pag. . . and let it be ( as it can be no more then ) imagined there was such a great congregation , which ( it being , as not possible to know it , so nor here , nor there to mine or any mans salvation ) i 'le not search into so far as to put my self into any capacity of either saying or gain saying it that there was ; and to ground any as i. o. does many things upon its being so , as he but thinks , is ( as he sayes in another case , pag . ) to build towns and castles of imaginations , which may be as easily cast down as they are erected : yet when all 's done , whence had that sanydrim , such authority as to confine and bound out that canon , and canonize some of the writings of such prophets as ye wot are canonical , and cashiere the rest of the writings of the same prophets , and all the writings of some other prophets , as of no such divine authority , as to command with their fellows in gods name as his word , and to abrogate them as apocryphal ( as ye speak ) and disband them from the bench of iudicature , and to bind the sweet influences of the holy spirit , so as to say , o spirit of god be silent now , blow no more , nor make any more prophets now for these many hundred years to come , but become subject thy self to be tryed by the touchstone of the writings of such prophets , as thou hast already moved to write gods mind , or so many at least , as it seems good to us now to authorize and establish into a standard for the tryal of thy self , as well as all false spirits ? and if i. o. say ( as he does , pag. . ) that was not called the great congregation from its number , but eminency of persons ; yet i say are any persons so eminent ( if i.o. be not a lyar , pag. . ) as to have authority from god to authorize and canonize ( casting aside what they like not ) what seems good to them , into the name ( to bespeak i. o in his own feigned phrase ) of the word of god , that they themselves must be subject to the authority of , and of the rule that themselves must be ruled by , and of the foundation that themselves , and all others must be built on , and of the basis of their own belief ? it is indeed ( quoth i.o. pag . . ) a contradiction for men to say ( and if for other men then for i.o. [ say i ] who sayes the same yet sees it not ) they give authority to the scriptures , they bound the canon and deliver to the church what it shall be , which it hath antecedently to their charter and concession . and again , moreover ( to say the same of his supposed sanydrim , that i o sayes to the digrading of the septuagint from that high conceit some have of them , and eminent account some have them in , pag. . ) if the ability of the men be granted , yet what security have we of their principles and honesty ? oh much every way ( thinks i.o. for , though when he is pleased to speak diminitively of men , the care and fidelity and pains of whom in translating we have as good ground to believe was as great to the full , as any of that of those he commends in transcribing , he disparages it into oscitancy , inadvertency , negligence , ignorance , the wisest not seeing all , and such like , pag . yet when he speaks of the care , pains and fidelity of men in transcribing , which is a work as lyable to mistakes as the other , that he may keep up the honour however of his ( infallible ) transcripts to this day , then he utters himself more hyperbolically ; and as for ezra and his conjectured companions , he makes their labour to reform the church , and all the corruptions crept into the word ( as he speaks , though if the letter were the word it were not lyable to corruption ) little lesse then monstrous , and their care in restoring the scripture to its purity ( mark ) extraordinary , pag. . yea , of the points , which yet he is to prove coaevous with the consonants , and as old as any scripture . i doubt not ( quoth he ) but of that we shall yet manifest that they were compleated ( it should seem then that every tittle is not now a● at first giving out of the letter if the vowels were incompleate till esdros dayes ) by the men of the great synagogue ezra and his companions guided by the infallible direction of the spirit of god. i might ( as i. o. does often beg or take it ) crave leave to answer this conjecture with another , pag. . and fling back i. o's . as well as t. d's fortè ita , with so much at least as fortè non ; but ipse dixit , j.o. sayes , he doubts not their infallibility , so i , who had rather be silent then disparage ezra , will add no more to i. os rex sum , then nil ultrae quaeio plebeius . and now i am upon a consideration of the canon of the scripture , let me here make an end with thee i.o. as concerning this cogitation of thine about the consignation of the canon of both the old , and that thou callest the new testament ; of which new thou sayest , pag. . that what thou hadst spoken of the scripture of the old testament , viz. as to its immediate emanation from god , and its being canonized together with it into a standard , the same must be also affirmed of the new , with this addition of advantage and preheminence above the old , that it began to be spoken by the l o r d himself . and as for thy canon of the outward scriptures of both sorts , one of which thou callest the old , the other the new testament , after the bounding . compleating , and consignation of which in their respective junctures and seasons , and the delivery of it so canonized to the church or churches respectively as their eternal , infallible , touchstone , rule , foundation , testimony , standard , no more must be owned on such a high account , as it s authorized into , as of divine original , nor be added by either god or man , while the world stands , * i would sain find from thee ( if yet thou art able thy self to fathom to the bottom of thy own faith , or rather fancy in this point ) where thou findest , and whence thou foundest all thy confused communications and crude conceptions about this canonization of such and such outward parcels of holy mens writings into a rule or standard , and disfranchizing such and such of others , as holy as those from a standing within the bounds of this magna charta , that certain synods and supposed sanydrims of thou knowest not whom have given , and do ( as thou deemest ) give and grant thereunto , together with them ? where learnest thou all these lessons but from the lectures and lying legends , and voluminous lexicons of the illiterate literatists of the world that are alwayes laying on , and loading one another with their endlesse , boundlesse , and bottomlesse scribles about the outward original text and transcriptions and translations of the scripture in their tedious tomes , talmuds , and talmudical traditions till they are lost from the very letter , much more the life it calls to , so that they have no leasure to live , or learn others to live thereafter , in the inextricable laborynth of their own labours about it ? who leads thee into the vain imaginations of these things , but thy own and other mens ( well nigh innumerable , and invincible ) inventions ? what tangles thee and others in such trifling talkings and treatings one to another of things that none of ye all can have any infallible evidence , or yield to any infallible assurance of , but a croud of conceits , and catholick traditions ? with which the world , and ye in it , are so overcharged , that ye cannot contain them now without infinite , frothy and fruitlesse contendings about them , and obtruding your own observances , imposing your own supposings , and thrusting each upon other your own bare thred-bare thoughts of things that ( ne flocci facit ) it amounts not to the value of a lock of wooll ( as to salvation ) whether they be known or not , till being throng'd and thrust into the thorny thicket of your own thoughts you there tear one another to pieces about the scripture ; insomuch that i truly may , and plainly shall be so bold as flatly to contradict what thou sayest falsly of thy canon and standard , since the closing and compleating of it , that t is a means to end all strife , it is rather throw the folly of its ministers , the means of all strife and confusion in the christian world. thou sayest indeed of the writings of the old testament that the canon thereof had its consignation , bounding , and delivery to the church , as its rule , so that from thenceforth nothing written either from moses upward , or to christs time downward must be admitted to be owned as canonical , or inspired scripture ; and thou sayest , pag. . . that god , who himself began the writings of the word with his own finger , after he had spoken it , appointing and approving the writing of the rest that followed ( i.e. ) from genesis to the revelation , as they are ordinarily numerated in our bibles , except the books called apocrypha ( for i reckon all those are reckoned by thee as the books thou speakest of , epist. ded. pag. . never indited by the holy spirit , as remote from being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) doth lastly command the close of the immediate revelation of his will to be written in a book , rev. . and so gives out the whole of his mind and counsel unto us in writing , as a merciful and stedfast relief against all confusion , darknesse and uncertainty ; but what a relief it is against confusion , i shall shew more hereafter . and as to thy scriptures canonization or the consignation , compleating bounding of the canon of it , a few words here about the manner and means and true bounds thereof ( for as to the question whether it be a canon , that is , a rule at all yea or not , i may defer it also to another place ) let me expostulate with thee i o. yet more about it yet how , and by whom your standard comes to be so bounded ( as ye say it is ) and to be limited to those demensions of latitude , longitude , and profundity , that ( ad amussim ) exact measure , heighth , depth , length and breadth , that is allotted to it , as ( without the apocripha ) it stands bound up within your late bound bibles ? i mean that such and such parcels , prophesies , proverbs , histories , epistles , holy sentences , sacred sayings , shall stand owned , honoured , signed and authorized with the sacred high and holy titles of gods word , gods witnesse , foundation , rule , inalterable standard , and not one piece of holy writing more or lesse , then those already so consecrated and canonized ; so that such and such ( puta , those that ye now commonly call canonical ) shall shand as the standard ; and all others ; viz. those called apocryphal , and whatever are mentioned in that scripture ye so own , shall stand out of , and off from it , as no part of the standard while the world stands ? who was it ? was it god or was it man that set such distinct bounds to the scripture , so as to say such and such a set number of books , viz. those those that are sum'd up together before your bibles , excepting the apocrypha , which stands between them , shall be owned as canonical , and the rest , though such as were of the same divine inspiration , be rejected as humane , and no otherwise accounted on then other meer mens writings , not to be received with such high respect as the other ? whence hast thou this conceit that god himself commanded the close of the canon of the old testament to be malachi , and the bounds of it to consist of such books of the prophets , as ye now have , exclusively of such prophesies , therein mentioned , as ye have not ? and the close of the canon of the new to be the revelation , and the bulk of it to be those few histories , and apostolical epistles , as ye have exclusively , of such even therein mentioned , as ye have not ? who was it that said to the spirit of god , o spirit , blow no more , inspire no more men , make no more prophets from ezra's dayes and downwards till christ ; and from iohns dayes downward for ever ? but cease , be silent and subject thy self as well as all evil spirits to be tryed by the standard , that 's made up of some of the writings of some of those men thou hast moved to write already , and let such and such of them as are bound up in the bibles now used in england , be the only means of measuring all truth for ever . who was it god or man , the spirit in the scripture it self , or the scribes in their synods , councels , and consistories that so authorized or canonized these , and expunged those ? was it not meer men in their imaginations ? doth the scripture , do the spirit and the apostles therein give any order for , or make any such mention in the least of such a matter ? is it not meer man in his imaginations , that hath taken upon him according to the good , or ill conceit , that he hath taken to him , of these or those respectively , to say ( which thou sayest is a contradiction to say ) he will give authority to the scriptures ? is it not man in his proud mind that comes in with his sic volo , sic iubeo , so i 'le have it , thus it shall be ? saying to the books of scripture as god sayes to the waves of the outward ocean , hitherto shall ye come and no further ; so many of the prophets and apostles writings shall be in the authority , nature , vse and office of the supream determiner of all truth for ever ; and all others , even such as are written by the same men , in the motion of the same spirits shall be but as common mens writings , and be look'd on afar off as apocryphal , i.e. hidden or unknown writings , that no such notice shall be ●aken of , as of the other ? and as for the books which ye sprinkle with that name of apocryphal , and give leave to to have a standing with it , but not so as to make any part of your standard ; what think ye of them upon second thoughts ? are they fit for nothing but to be cashiered and cast out of your canon by whole sale , by tradition one from another , without trying them ? is there nothing among them that may be judiciously iudged to be of as divine an original and authority as some of those particular letters to private men , as that of paul to philemon , about private personal , or domestick matters , which ye own in such a transcendent manner as ye do ? surely if some of hem be fictitious or fabulous or but humane , so that ye will say no better of them then vox hominem sonat ; yet is there none , or nothing among them all that is to be noted or counted upon as of divine authority and original , and of as self-evidencing efficacy as some of those ye own ? none that ye can see cause to sign meliore lapillo , with some better name then ye vouchsafe them , and standing in the church then ye allow them ? as if they were a certain mongrel seed between that of canaan and ashdod , that ye know not well what to make of , nor how to entreat so ill altogether , as not to afford them a middle place in some of your bibles between the old testament writings and those ye call the new , nor yet so well , as to entertain them into your canon neither ? surely there be some of them , which when ye look them over again not so cursorily as to over-look them , as ye ordinarily do , ye may find ground to receive as such , as have as fair a stamp of the beaming majesty , truth , holinesse and authority of god and his spirit , as some at least ( not to say the most ) of those ye ascribe to god , as their main or only author ; and that do favour as much of i. o's so much insisted on theo-pneusty , as some other historical , doctrinal and prophetical parts of your acknowledged divinely derived scripture do , of which ( what infidels soever ye are as concerning them ) yet i , together with many others , whereof some are as booklearn'd as your selves , can say credo equidem nec vana fides genus esse deorum . 't is indeed the faith , or rather infidelity of such as call themselves reformed churches , that all those books called the apocrypha , without exception , are in no wise of such divine original , as them ye call canonical ; but who first set the one upon the bench , and the other at the bar , i am yet to learn ; but this i know , that howbeit ye second their depression and digradation of the one so far below the other , yet as neither one nor t'other were ever canonized by god himself ( if we speak of the outward text only , about which my businesse with i.o. lyes ) into that name of his word , and into the authority of the foundation of faith , the infallible rule of interpretation of itself , of tryal and examination of spirits , doctrines , &c. of the supream iudge also , by which all controversies of religion are to be determined , the only pure authentical standard , unto which the church is finally to appeal , in whose sentence it is to rest , into which all faith is finally to be resolved ; so if such synods of men , either antient or modern , as have shouldred out all those at once from sharing with the other writings in what they can lay just claim to , had been as spiritually discerning as they were spiritually blind , shallow and undiscerning , they would have seen cause to have joyned some at least of those apocryhal scriptures to an equal participation of that plea of divine original and inspiration with the rest , as without cause they justled them all out from it by their joynt consent . and though it be the declared faith of that assembly of divines that both houses of parliament advised with . and of the congregational churches in england , whose confession is put out this instant . as to that article about the scriptures word for word in the same words with the other , that the books commonly called apocrypha not being of divine inspiration are no part of the canon of the scriptures , and therefore are of no authority in the church of god , nor to be any otherwise approved or made use of then other humane writings ; yet this i declare to the whole world as my faith concerning them , that though i own neither them , nor the best bare wriing , or outward text or letter of the other scripture at so high a rate as i.o. does , who makes the naked letter in all things equivolent to the holy matter ; yet whatever is truly to be praedicated of the one , or can solidly be pleaded on the behalf of the one , which ye call your canon as to the divinity of their original , the same may be pleaded on the behalf of not a few of the other . and as they all , that in general are stilled apocryphal , can plead their authority from long before the apostles dayes ; and also the special care and providence of god ( which is an argument of such weight with i.o. and t.d. pag. . as swayes them not a little into their frivolous faith about the rest ) in the preservation of them to this very day ; so that all of them have been kept by the church , that kept the rest bound up and translated into various languages , and as publickly allowed to be publickly read as the rest , and highly esteemed by austin , and other fathers , ye divines cannot easily be ignorant . and as for sundry of them , ye are ignorant with a witnesse , if ye see them to be as ye say they are , not of divine inspiration , or see them not to be of as divine an original as some , or even any of the other , which ye own so to be . as for that fourth book of esdras , which is but the second as it stands in the apocrypha , besides that it s acknowledged by clem , alexandrinus , faber , and many more men of renown among you , and by many holy men in these latter times , as well learned as your selves , at least in the wisdom of gods spirit , to be written by his immediate inspiration ; so is it such a plain prophecy consistent of many particular praedictions of things to be fulfilled in these last ages , as the like to it , or a least clearer is hardly to be found in all the scripture besides it ; insomuch that he who reads it in the , , , chapters of it , and some other places , and sees not the beams of a divine majesty in it , and sees not the matters now managing upon the stage in the world , that are there foretold in it , reads not in the light of that holy spirit , that moved in the writing both of that and all other holy scripture , and may come before he is well aware to feel ere long the dint of that divine displeasure that is denounced against the sinners of the latter ages , and thereby come to be convinced of the divinity and truth of that scripture , which our divines that usually see altogether by the lump , and are loath to see any truth sigillatim , till they are all made to see it whether they will or no , will hardly yield to , if they be their old-wonted-selves , till very necessity forces and frights them into the faith of it . and the same may be said , as to the divine original of ieremiahs epistle , which was written and sent to them that were to go captive into babylon , and of ecclesiasticus , and the wisdom of solomon , which favours so much of the wisdom of the spirit , that he is yet in that wisdom only , which is from beneath , which is earthly , animal , deceitful , who doth not acknowledge the finger of god , writing those deep and precious truths and praedictions in the heart of him , whose hand was the committer of them to outward writing ( which whether it were not solomon after whom it was so entituled , nil ultra quaero , he uttered proverbs , whereof scarce are extant in that book of his proverbs , some of which as standing inserted there in the hebrew text , are not the original copy , but a transcript only at best out of that , or some second hand copies taken and copied cut long after solomons dayes by the men of hezekiah or generations from him , prov. . the chapter of which book also are the words of one agu● the son of iaketh ) but sure i am that book of wisdom was inspired or breathed into the penman , that expired or breathed it out , from no lesse then that wisdom which is from above . the main argument that ever i have seen against the divine original of these books , are , first , their being not written in the hebrew tongue , which what a poor pedling piece of disproof it is , he is no wiser then he should be , that does not see ; for what warrant is there that all that was not pen'd in the hebrew tongue is no scripture of divine inspiration ? or if there be , is it not as conclusive against much of the scripture which i.o. counts canonical , the whole of wch he reckons ( at random ) was wrote in the hebrew tongue , since its evident that much of that book of hester ( chapters and verses of which are set among the canonical scripture , and ( oh the wisdom ) the other chapters and verses of the chapter by you self-will'd choppers and changers , because written in greek are reckoned and rank'd with the apocryphal ) was written not in the hebrew , but in the caldee , as much of ezra , nehemiah , and daniel also were . and besides , if being written originally in the hebrew will avail toward the evincing of them to be canonical , this will help some of your apocrypha into your canon , since that of tobit or tobias is not only ( as that of ba●uch also is , the holy man that wrote much for that prophet , and of that prophecy of ieremiah ) most pretiously both doctrinal and prophetical , but also extant in the hebrew as well as greek and latine ; and that of ecclesiasticus was written originally in hebrew , witnesse iesus the son of syrach , who himself confesseth in his prologue , he translated it out of the hebrew text ; and if ye say that 's but a translation then at best , and so not canonical scripture , i reply two things thereto ; first , this argues ad hominem against i o. then tittles and iotaes of the hebrew text are lost since the giving out thereof at first . secondly , that either translation must be owned as canonical with you , as well as the first original manuscripts and your original transcripts , or else it must be concluded what ever you linguists have , yet the people that live upon your lips , not being able to read hebrew and greek , have no canonical scripture at all to read . the second argument that is supposed to be of weight against the divine original of the apocryphal scriptures ( broughton , in his sinai sights , touches upon them both ) is , because no writers in the new testament , cite or quote any of them any otherwise then they do heathen authors . but i marvel not , fith the wise men are to be befooled , that prudent broughton should be so blind as not to see , how paul , heb. . quotes out of wisd. . . and heb. . . quotes wisd. . . and cor. . . quotes wisd. . . and heb. . . quotes maccab. . . yea , and christ himself , matth. . , , . quotes esdras . . and rev. . . answers to esdras . , , , , , . besides many other passages in the scriptures of the new testament ; but especially in the revelation relate to their paralels in that second book of esdras , which is the fourth at least of that man ezra or esdras his writing , whereof that some should be received as of divine original , and some that have as truly spiritual a tincture on them , as the other , or any in all the scripture ( as that fourth of esdras hath , wherein also he declares his visions and revelations he had from god , in which he would not sain and lye ( for then he were not fit to have his two first books owned as from god ) should be rejected as meerly humane , i see not any solid ground for it ; yet such is the divine the-anthropical wisdom of our meer humane divines , that two of that same mans books , who wrote all the four , ( for the identity of the person , that pen'd them all , every believer may easily believe ) are canonized as divine , and the other two condemned as but humane . thus though i.o. prates so much for the whole book of gods being providentially preserved , so that we may have full assurance that we enjoy the whole revelation of his will ( that is , with him , all the writings that ever were written by inspiration from the spirit fit , to stand among those that he makes the standard ) in the copies abiding amongst us ; and contends that the whole scripture entire , as given out from god without any losse of so much as one letter , tittle , or iota , remains and is preserved in the copies yet extant among us to this day ; which is that arch-assertion in which having at first over shot himself in blindly bolting it out , rather then endure that honourable shame of owning his own ignorance , he as blindly posts on to maintain , pag. . . . . . yet upon i know not what frivolous conceits , and prejudicate surmises possessing the minds of himself and his brethren of both the convocational and the congregational way , among which blind custome , more then clear sight , i believe to be none of the least , which are so far from enjoying the whole book of scripture , wherein the mind and vvill of god lyes declared by his own inspiration of the penmen , that no small part of that scripture that was written by men divinely inspired , and so providentially preserved , he refuses to enjoy or own as of such divine descent from god , as other parts of the scripture are , but rejects and contemnes it as apocryphal , that is , so altogether hidden from him that he knows not very well what to make on 't . but suppose he should own and take all the apocryphal writings into his standard and canon ( as he calls it ) of the scriptures , does that and all the rest both old and new , that are bound up in old english bibles with it , constitute the utmost bounds of his canon ? doth his standard stand in so little room ? is it closed within so narrow a corner ? consists it of so few , so small a company of holy mens writings , and scriptures , as are comprehended in no greater a compasse then that book called the bible contains to ? is that the whole book of god , the whole outward declaration of his will by the writings of holy men at his own motion ? the whole scripture entire that was ever so given out from god , without any losse of any of the integral parts of it , so much as of one letter , tittle , or iota ? is all extant ? all remaining ? all preserved to this day that was written by holy men , as moved by the holy spirit ? and is that all of the inspired scripture , which we now have , and enjoy in our present bibles ? was there no more of the old testament scripture , then the apocrypha , and that which is commonly counted to the canon ? and is the revelation the close of the immediate revelation of his will to holy men , and of his moving them to write it out by his holy spirit ? num tam — pellibus exiguis arctatur spiritus ingens . two things i.o. at least i have to say to the contrary . first , that is not all of the old , nor all of the new scriptures , that were by inspiration written before christ , and after him to the same use , ends ; and purposes as the rest were written , until iohns writing the revelation . secondly , that as there was much more then that ye wot of , which was written as the spirit moved from moses to the revelation , so there hath been more , since then , so written , and more is , and will yet be in time to come , before ( as near as it is to it ) the world that now waxes old towards it , be at an end . first , there 's not all in your bibles by much , and by how much who knows ? that was given out upon inspiration of god , when as ( to say nothing of the testament of the twelve patriarchs now extant ) there is not all the inspired scripture by much , which that inspired scripture ye have makes mention of ; where 's the book of nathan the prophet ? the book of ahijah ? the book of iddo ? chron. . . the book of shemaiah ? chron. . . the book of iehu the prophet ? chron. . , king . : the book of gad the seer ? chron. . . the book of iasher ? sam. . . of which it may well be supposed that he was a very antient writer , since those that wrote ioshua , who ere they were ( for himself it was not that wrote it all at least ( as moses not all deuteronomie ) unlesse he wrote of his own death and burial before he died ; see iosh. . . ) do quote him , iosh. . . where 's that part of ieremiah the prophet , wherein he spake that which matthew cites , matth. . , . about the giving the pieces of silver , the price that christ was sold at , for the potters field ; for howbeit zachary the prophet , zach. . . speaks of the same thing ( who was in his work an exalier of god in his time , which the name ieremiah seems to signifie , and so may be called ieremiah , which is not likely to be matthews meaning ) yet in all the prophesies of ieremie extant in your bibles , there 's no such thing spoken ; and for you to say either that matthew was mistaken , quoting throw forgetfulness one prophet for another ; or that the transcribers of the copies of their original out of matthews original copy , failed so fowlly in their transcribings ( for all your copies that ever i saw so read ) as to write ieremie for zachary , will be for i.o. upon his principles , who stands to plead every letter , tittle , and iota that was in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be now in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as sorry a shift , and miserable remedy , as he makes for himself , and finds , who leaps out of the frying pan into the fire . where 's the prophecy of enoch , spoken of iude . out of whose prophesie the iewes can tell you more then ye wot of from that of iude ? and as for ezra or esdras , and his true companions , of whom thou sayest truly enough , if not truer then thou art aware of , that their care in restoring the scripture to its purity , when it had met with the greatest tryal that it ever underwent in this world , considering the paucity of the copies then extant was great , and that the consignation and bounding of the canon delivered to the judaical church , was in their dayes ; and that they did labour to reform all the corruptions crept into the word of god * and that they compleated the punctation ( the compleatnesse of which then was not coaevous with the text , as at first written in hebrew , as thou contendest , to the consuring of thy self here ) and that they were guided herein by the infallible direction of the spirit of god , pag. . . . . did not they , in the spirit and power of god , write many more books , even . most of which are not in your bibles ; read esdras . throughout the chapter ? where are all these , and sundry more scriptures ( some as , and some more antient then moses ) of which i will not now speak particularly ? and as to the new , where is that first epistle of paul to the corinthians , mentioned in the first of those two that we have ? cor. . . and that first epistle of his to the ephesians ( for its evident he wrote one to them before that ) mentioned in that one which ye have , ephes. ? and that epistle of his to the laodiceans , mentioned , col. . ? besides several to seneca , neros tutor , and other of pauls writings , who was doubtlesse far more voluminous in his writings then that poor pittance of epistles to churches and ministers , and the letters to philemona tradesman , about a domestick businesse of receiving his servant onesimus , that had ben unserviceable to him , amounts to ; of whole spiritual scriptures , and speeches that fell from him at his martyrdom , that were taken by such as were present at it , some in these dayes have seen more , then that which was written of him by luke in the acts , and written by him in the epistles ye count a part of your canon . and whether that , which iohn wrote to the church , mentioned by him in the th vers . of his letter to gaius , were no other then the first of those three recorded ? and whether that of iude , whereof iude . he sayes in the praeterimperfect tense , when i gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation * it was needful for me to write unto you , &c. were not one he wrote before this , which was now but under his hands , is more then all you sayers of what ye think only , are able groundedly to gain-say . and whether clements epistle , whose name was in the book of life , and that church of rome to corinth , wrote years after pauls , may not challenge to be ranck'd among the rest , is worth your enquiry ? and what think ye of that sweet , shorr , pretious reply of christ iesus himself in his letter to agbarus king of edessa , who wrote so loving'y and beleevingly to him about the malady that lay upon him , as it stood recorded in the roles of that city , and may do still for ought ye know , which is to be read , and many other pretious passages about that businesse in the ecclesiastical history of eusebius pamphilius ? is it not as christian , as divinum spiritum , non hominem sapiens , and worthy ( as particular as it is ) to stand in your standard , and claim a room in your canon , as that particular letter of paul to philemon ? what is become i say of all these , and more then may now be mentioned , none of which is within the confines of your congregationally constituted , synodically composed , ecclesiastically authorized , clerically conceived canon ? . were they not divinely inspired ? that were to render doubtful your undoubted divine original of what you have ? since some of them are quoted in these you have . . are they all utterly lost ? that were to loose himself much more in his cause ( who is lost too much already ) for i.o. to say so , sith more then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , one jot , or one tittle is then passed away and perished from the law ( if the letter be it ) not one jot or one tittle of which letter , quoth i.o. ( wofully mis-interpreting that of matth. . . for the lotaes and tittles of the meer text , and letter , which christ utters only of the doctrine , truth , and holy matter of the law ) is to passe away , till heaven and earth ( which are yet standing ) are past away . * . or did not god himselfe intend to dignifie these with the same honour , and crown them with so high an account as those , though as well descended , and as immediately derived from him as the rest ? or did he not design them to the same spiritual ends , and renowned uses with their fellows ? . or were these books out of the way and not present at the time and place of the first setting up of your standard by such synods and sanydrims as took on them to stablish , sign , seal , and authorize what scriptures of the prophets and apostles should , and what should not stand under that honourable title of the stedfast standard , and so were censured and sentenced for ever for not appearing at that sacred session and high court of iudicature , which was to iudge what books should be from thence-forth the supream iudge to which all should appeal in all cases , and in whose sentence all should rest , and all faith be finally resolved ; and not coming in at the compleating , consignation , bounding , and final closing of the canon , should for ever iure ant-ecclesiastico , or apostatico , and in foro hominum , forfeit that ( originally ) equal title , which in foro dei , iure christico and apostolico they else had to be canonized with their fellows ? ah poor men ! it pities me to see how ye dream together in the dark , and mope up and down in your own misty imaginations about your original texts and external letter , leaving the original truth it self , which was before your texts were ever talk'd on , or had a being in the world , turning your backs on that internal light in the heart , which all the tendency of of your letter is to turn men to , and from which your scripture originally had its being . it irks me to see how for want of betaking your selves to the measure of the light that shines in your own consciences , that infallibly would lead you to that which is the end of all scriptures , and words spoken or written as from god , ( viz. ) honesty and righteousnesse , truth and acceptation with god and holy men , ye trace to and fro till ye tire your selves in the perplexing cris-cros track , and endlesse round of your own meer thoughts about a thing , which the more ye try , the more ye tangle your selves about it , and the more ye look after it , and in it , in the way ye look into your beloved letter , the more ye loose your selves in it and about it , till at last you will eternally loose both it and your selves too , by not looking to the light at all , even no lesse then altogether ; see epist. ded : pag. . i. o's . preaching on that subject , the scripture , and his publishing of it is said by him to be but his thoughts , so pag. , . what he delivers about the prolegomena and appendix to the biblia polyglotta was but what his own thoughts had suggested unto him , sutable to other learned mens apprehensions . so pag. . he runs the hazard of giving his thoughts on them . pag. . he discover , his thoughts on the things proposed by them . so pag. . what he gives out concerning the purity of the present copies of the originals of the scriptures he so scribles for is but an account of his apprehensions . so pag. . he purposes to manifest his thoughts on the epistle to the hebrews : so pag. . he desired dr. ward to give his thoughts on the difference of apert sounds and vowels , which he did accordingly . and pag. . he sayes , when he shall communicate his thoughts to the world about an vniversal character , it will doubtlesse yield much , if not vniversal satisfaction unto learned and prudent men . o ye wise and prudent vain thinkers , and senslesse surmisers , that sit down universally satisfied in the shadow of your own , and one anothers shallow thoughts ! when will you come to busie your selves about that which is infallibly clear and certain , and let your deep infinite disputings about dark and doubtful matters ( of small moment to you too ) altogether alone ? when will you wash your hearts from that dunghil of meer deemings , and divinity dreamings , with the untempered morter of which ye are all to be-dawbed , so that one can discern little or nothing that savours of more then dubiousuesse and disputablenesse it self , descending or flowing from your well-heads and fountains of forgery and fabulosity , & little or none from the breasts of your nursing mothers of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , plain , purely reasonable sincere milk of the word , whereby the growth is into the life of god ; but such as is mangled and mingled with the mire and mudde of your putrid and puddlely opinions and opinations ? will you never cease from teaching for doctrines your own conceptions , apprehensions , and conjectural conclusions of things for truth , taken from no surer topick place , then that self same that ye condemn in papists , ( viz. ) the traditions of men ? will you never give over filling , and feeding the vain world for filthy lucre with such perishing food , as the thin froth and foam of your own fancies , instead of the bread that comes down from heaven , and that meat which endures to eternal life ? oh thou european athens , or academical minx , thou manifold mother with thy children , for whom t is as easie for the blackmore to change his skin , and the leopard his spots , as for thee , who hast been accustomed to apostarize from the councel of god , and erre from the mind of christ , to with-hold thy foot from wandring after thy own images and imaginations , wilt thou not be made clean ? when shall it once be ? how long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee ? now as to the four wayes by way of query above propounded , which of them all i.o. means to answer by , who talks so much about the closure , compleating , consignation , and bounding of the standard and scripture canon ● i cant well say : but as for t.d. with whom i have somewhat to do , and to deal alittle here , he replyes affirmitively to the third among them , saying , pag. , of the first epistle of paul to the corinthians , mentioned in that first of ours , and so consequently of all the several scriptures that are not bound up in your bibles , which i asserted to be as much a rule as those ye have , that they were not intended as much for your rule , as those in your books . to whom when i replyed at the dispute with him ( as he there relates ) thus , viz. if that epistle was wriiten to the same end with those we have ( as it was , viz. to instruct the corinthians how to carry themselves to grosse sinners , i cor. . . compared with vers . ii. i wrote unto you not to company , and now i have written unto you not to keep company ; and the same was said of his first to the ephesians , i.e. that it was to the self same end as that we have , ephes. . . as i wrote before , that ye may understand my knowledge in the mistery of christ so now ) then 't was intended as much for a rule as the other ; but it was written to the same end : ergo , if one a rule , then the other . t.d. denies the consequence ; saying sermons , private religious discourses have the same common end with the written scriptures , yet the later only are our standing rule ; the former our rule but so far as they agree with the later in the scripture . reply . which reply of t. d's , is so unreasonably ridiculcus , that he is scarce animal rationale risibile , that receives , and entertains it seriously as the truth ; for first , it supposes as if pauls first writing to the corinthians , were not written scriptures , as well as the rest we have , but an orall discourse . secondly , it supposes pau's first epistle of all to that church , which was cited by himself in his second , as written to the same end , and was written in the same spirit of god in which he lived , and walk'd , and out of whose movings he wrote no epistles to the churches , * was fit to stand in no other account then the sermons , and private religious discourses of our clergy-men and their common christians , which must stand or fall as they square , or not square with the standard of scripture ; and as if the seniour epistles of paul to corinth and ephesus , must like prisoners at the bar , receive their sentence of guilty , or not guilty , worthy or not worthy to be owned as a part of the rule or canon , by their iuniours , or such as were sent after them , to sit as iudges of them at the bench ; and so hereby his reply is as it were an affirmative answer to the first of my four queries , viz. that pauls writings were not all alike of divine original and inspiration , but some epistles to the churches of his , were uttered as he was moved by the holy spirit , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and others 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of private interpretation , or as private mens writings . credat apella . and when 't was urged by me , that there was no more evidence or character of these epistles being a rule which are , then of those which are not in your books ; then t.d. seeing what he had replyed that way would not hold , replyes by way of answer to the second of my four last queries , affirming that pauls first writings to corinth and ephesus were lost when those we have are saved ; and so makes this distinction of the ones being perished , the other preserved by gods providence watching over them , when he did not over the other a signal evidence that god intended the one for a standing rule to us and not the other ; and herein he and i.o. jump together and border pretty near one another , sith i.o. insists exceedingly ( as an argument of their being a rule in the church ) on this businesse of gods preservation of every tittle and iota of divinely inspired scripture to this day , whereby he implicitly denies all the afore-named , that are not in your bibles , to be any of them of divine inspiration ; but with this difference from t.d. that i.o. sayes not a tittle of the inspired scripture is lost ; t.d. to the confuting of i.o. confesses ( being i believe informed of some holy scripture at the dispute , which he knew not of before ) that not only tittles and iotaes , but some whole books of which he dares not say expresly ( though intimate it he doth in the head next above spoken to ) that they were not divinely inspired , are lost and perished out of the world ; so that the preservation of what is preserved , is made a signal token that it s to be our rule , and the losse of what 's lost , that that was not written for such an end . to which signal token of gods intending the one and not the o. her for a rule , when i replyed ( as 't is transiently done above to i o. touching the books called apocrypha ) that there is more antient holy writ remaining extant to this day , preserved for our use by gods providence , then ye own or honour with a standing in your standard ( instancing in the epistle of paul to laodicea ) then by and by t.d. who rides the rounds not much lesse then i.o. and is never positive nor steady to any thing he asserts , so as to stand long to it without shifting ( proteus like ) into another shape , when he is ashamed to be seen longer in his old one , comes out in a clear contrary gelour , and flatly contradicts himself , and unsayes what he said but just before ; and whereas he had made the preserving of what was written , and is preserved , an argument of its being designed of god for a rule , affirms , that all that was written by holy men ( meaning paul among the rest , or else he speaks not at all to the purpose ) and preserved also for our use , is not therefore our standing rule : thus one while 't is so , and one while no ; then neither , yet both no , and so . pauls three epistles , viz. the two to corinth , one to ephesus that we have , appear therefore to be our standing rule , because they are preserved to our use to this day ; but his first of all to corinth and ephesus , therefore not so , because not preserved ; there 's his first saying . his very next of all is this , pauls epistle to laodicea , though preserved for our use , yet is not therefore to be our standing rule to this day . so what ever pauls epistles are , yet i am sure pauls life and example is no rule that t. d's . walks by , nor i.o. neither , for his yea was yea , and his nay nay ; he did not use such lightnesse , as they both very often do , who say nay to that they said yea to just before ; neither did he speak so according to the flesh ( as they ) with whom now there 's yea yea , and anon to the same thing nay nay ; but as god is true , and christ is not yea and nay in his words , and enjoynes us to be steady in our yea and nay , so was pauls word in what he spake . and yet the reason t.d. renders of his saying no , to what he said not no but so just before , is as reasonlesse as his self confutation is ; for ( mark ) then ( quoth he ) if what ere was written by holy men ( alluding to paul ) be therefore our standing rule because preserved , the discourses of holy ministers in former and latter times should be our rule , which they are not , but are to be brought to the written word as our rule and test. in which if by holy ministers in former times , he means paul among the rest , as he must , else he misses the matter , then some of pauls epistles are the rule and test , which his other epistles must stand bare before to be tryed by , which is absurd ; if by latter ministers he intend such as himself , who confesses his ministry to be fallible ; i would have him to know , and that he shall find more of anon , that pauls ministry , and every true ministry that ministers by word of mouth or writing , as moved by the holy spirit , which moves and leads none fallibly , but all infallibly , whom it leads , was no such fallible ministry as his false one is , that it need be tryed by his other own holy writings . but now as to the epistle of laodicea instanced in , t.d. was so hard of belief , and difficult to he perswaded that there was any such at all , that if one of sandwich had not stood up and said he had the book wherein we asserted it to be printed , we should hardly have gained so much credit among the clergy then present ( such pro and con they made about it , as to have been believed ) that there was such a thing in being ; so ignorant are they of some present parts of that scripture they call their rule ; yet at last 't was yielded such a one was extant . but for all that , t.d. who has ever more wayes then one into the wood where he loves to wander , when he is bedged out of it one way , will find or make himself a gap into it by another , and as to this matter of pavl to laodicea , he hath three or four shifts , for fear one fail , affirming after he had found it translated into english , not to , but from laodicea * first , that for ought we know , it might be that first of paul to timothy , the post-script of which sayes it was written from laodicea ; of which post-script ( which its notorious enough to every novice , that neither it , nor the other post-scripts were pen'd by such as wrote the epistles themselves ) when i asked t.d. whether he owned it and the rest as canonical , or no ? as canonical ( quoth he ) for ought appears yet to me , as your epistle to the laodiceans , of which epistle yet he had said but just before , it might be that of pauls to timothy , which yet that it was , is so unlikely , that t is little lesse then to be like a child to assert it ; a likely matter indeed that its pauls to timothy meant col. . . that which paul wrote to timothy was to timothy a particular person , about particular matters concerning him , as in that capacity of a church-officer , i tim. . , . what should he charge the colosians so much to look after that for ? or if he had , would he not have said , see that ye read the epistle to timothy ? had not that been plainer ? secondly , but seeing that snap , t.d. fits another string to his instrument , and then fidles on in this fashion , denying it to be pauls epistle at all , either to laodicea , or timothy , or any one else ; branding it with the name of one of the brats laid by the popish party at the apostles doors , which they will not father , and me as a brother of the popish party , and an abbettor of them in their wickednesse , for fathering it on paul at all . and then thirdly , that he might seem to say something , though no better then nothing to every thing , rather then own any thing for truth before the world , be it never so plain , that the quakers tell him , he bethinks himself , and upon second , or rather third thoughts , adds ( having perused the judgement of some learned men about it ) that 't was neither pauls to timothy any more then to laodicea , nor yet altogether such a brat , or bastard brood as a metr chimaera hatcht , and bred , and sained in the fancies only of the popish party , but at least a real epistle , yet one that was so far from being pauls to laodicea , that it was rather one written by the laodiceans to paul himself , a more incredible pigment then the first , for all t is his reverend dr. davenports opinion on the place . thus oh the twistings and turnings , and chop●ings and changings , and piecirgs and patchings , and shiftings and shufflings of t.d. to wind himself away from the truth which is to him so intollerable , that with i.o. hee●l bear the shame , and run the hazard of giving his incongruous self-overturning thoughts thick and threefold against it , rather then truly turn to it when it s truly and uncontroulably told and laid before him ; as it is in this case about the epistle to laodicea , about which he traces to and fro two or three false wayes , and yer can scarce tell well , which of the three to fix upon , or steadily to stand to , or stand still in . neverthelesse notwithstanding t.ds. advance in three motions against the truth of pau's writing to laodicea , yet they help him not ; but for all his two strides and a iump , yet he leaps too short to reach the matter of truth he would resel by it , for quid verbis opus est quum facta loquuntur ? there need no more words in proof on 't , the epistle of paul to laodica is extant , and speaks out it self and its author whose it is , as well by the stale and majesty of it as by the superscription , being both translated and printed in english , as it was found , though not in your testaments , yet in the oldest bible that was printed at worms ; and also in a certain antient manuscript of the new testament text , which i have seen and can produce , written in old english years since , or above , before the art of printing came up here ; by which its evident , that it was owned as canonical in the church of england in those dayes , and was ( however it came to be since left out ) bound upamong its fellowes . and howbeit it be filled in our english translations of col. . . the epistle from laodicea , besides the genuine sence of the greek , which , as is shewed above , will much rather bear it to , then from laodicea ; yet let it be read from , that nothing lessens the likelihood of its being pauls ; for though he wrote it to laodicea , yet if the colossians would read it ( as paul bids them do , as that the laodiceans likewise should read what he wrote to the colossians ) they must read it in a copy from laodicea whether it was sent , or else not at all ; as the laodiceans it they read that he wrote to the colossians , must have it first from colosse , or at least a copy of it ; for as for the scriptures of the new testament ( quoth i.o. who helps us in this , though he hinder himself another way by it , as to his canons constitution out of the first original copies , pag. . ) it doth not appear that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the several writers of it were ever gathered into one volumne , there being now no one church to keep them for the rest , the epistles , though immediately transcribed for the use of other churches , col. . . ( mark how he quotes the very place too we are upon , as if he owned pauls to laodicea , which if he do , he wounds himself to death in his arch-assertion , that not a tittle or iota of the inspired scripture as given out at first , is lost , but remaining every apex of it in the copies w now enjoy , fith here 's a whole epistle of pauls lacking , as well as his first to corinth and ephesus , in which were many tittles and lotaes ) were doubtless kept in the several churches , to which they were directed ; from those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there were quickly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 given out to faithful men , whilst the infallible spirit continued his guidance in an extraordinary manner . here t.d. said no more , but was ad altum srlentium , and at his non ultra , as to opposing the being of such an epistle of paul to laodicea legitimate , but rather fell under the weight of what evidence was brought to prove it so ; yet when after long striving against this antecedent , which was urged in proof of this conclusion , viz. that there 's more holy scriptures extant to this day , which are as much a rule as those ye have in your bibles , and call your rule exclusively of all others ; to shew himself to be one of those i.o. speaks of , who are as like i.o. too as ever they can look , that are ( to english j. o's . latine ) * so unhappily stupid or self-will'd , that they will be indoctrinated by no reason nor experience ; but as if themselves aboue must over-top all , being puft up with a vain perswasion of their own faith , they obstinately persist in the contempt of such things as they understand not , and so with the comedian cry out , let who will say what he will from this opinion , we will not be removed : t.d. at last denyes the consequence , saying , pag . suppose we should grant you there were such an epistle legitimate , yet it will not follow that it was intended for a rule to us . and why so ? may any rational reader say ; for this reason ( quoth t.d. ) which reason is as silly as if he had said , because it will not ; for we have already as much as god thought sufficient , god did not give order for any more then them we have to be our rule ( what order he gave for any writing at all to be the rule or canon will be seen anon , or whether man did not give order for the canonizing of that , that is authorized , as the rule ) but how appears it that god gave order for some holy scriptures , and not some ? some holy mens writings , some of pauls epistles , and not othersome ? hereby ( quoth t d. ) read iob. . . . and many other signs truly did jesus in the presence of his discip'es , which are not written in this book , but these are written that ye might believe , &c. reply . in which scripture t. d's . reason why pauls other epistles are authentick and canonical , but that of his to laodicea though as legitimate as the rest must not be so , lyes so close hid up , that a man may sooner find the way of a bird in the air , or of a serpent upon a rock , or a fish in the sea , then find it , or any thing that hath the least iota of a reason of such a matter : quis nist mentis inops , &c. who but a man besides his wits , can see either sense or reason in this reason ? iohn sayes christ did more things then he wrote of in that book , therefore pauls epistle to laodicea i , not so canonical as his other epistles : but ( to take it as it comes ) consider first , iohn speaks of that particular history that he was then in hand with ; secondly , he speaks of signes and not of scriptures ; thirdly , though he affirms that more were done by christ , then were written in his book ; yet many might be , and were written by matthew , mark , and luke that were not by him ; so that every way that scripture makes against t.d. for first , if iohns writing that book were exclusive of any of pauls legitimate epistles , it must be of them all , and of all legitimate scripture that was wrote after this , and so of his own three epistles , and of his revelation also from the canon ; what mad work will t.d. make that way ? and what a fowl flaw will he make in his canon , by medling to exclude one book of the new testament , excluding well nigh all ; iohns book was sufficient , therefore no more need be written ; this is the inference according to t. d. and not iohns was sufficient , therefore pauls to laodicea only so illegitimate that it must have no room in the rule , nor standing in the standard , though all other his epistles now extant may . . iohn speaking that all the signs christ did , were not written , is no argument to prove that all that was written by the spirit , was not as equally useful as some of it , and all alike designed and ordered to the same ends , so that if some were intended for a rule , the rest must be ; yea , faith not the scripture thus , rom. . . cor. . . whatever was written aforetime was written for our instruction , that we by it might have hope ; saith it not , all scripture ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) is profitable for doctrine , exhortation , instruction in righteousnesse , &c. tim . . & pet. . . saith it not that no prophecy of scripture ( which with i.o. is the scripture of the prophecy ) must be interpreted as private discourses , that all holy men of god spake as moved of the holy spirit ; was not all then that was written before christ , and since intended to one and the self same end , though all that was done was not written ? i understand not therefore the force of this argument of t. d. all that was done , was not written : therefore much of that which was written is of no use , or not intended to the same use to the church as the rest was . . it perfectly confirms against t. d. what we assert against him , viz. that pau's writing to laodicea , and whatever else of holy mens writings that were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and can be found have ( caeteris paribus ) one as much authority as the other , being all alike legitimate ; for iohn sayes , of what ere is written ( if t.d. will stretch iohns saving beyond the bounds of that individual book he was then writing ) it was written all to the same end , ( i.e. ) that men might believe , which with you ( not us ) is as much as to say to be a rule of faith. one thing more i must not let slip here , though t. d. did in his account of the dispute , viz. that when t.d. had no more to say against that argument from paul : epistle to the laodiceans , one of his associated assistants ; r. wilkinson , asked , whether we had more scripture in the greek tongue now extant , then is in their greek testaments ? for that to laodicea being here but englished it would not down with them . reply was made , yea ; so naming a verse between the and verses of the chapter of luke , which is in some greek copies , not theirs , ( and a verse of the original text wanting , makes still against i. o.'s arch-assertion ; of the scripture of both testaments remaining in the copies they now have entire to a tittle , as it first given out without any losse , pag. . ) i repeated it in english thus out of the greek ; in which greek tongue i have also read it ; iesus seeing a certain man working on the sabbath day , said unto him , o man , if thou knewest indeed what thou dost , thou were happy ; but if thou knowest not , thou art accursed , and a transgressor of the law. and so i have proved against t. d. that there 's much scripture of holy men , which was as much designed in its first giving out to be the rule , as 〈◊〉 which is in modern bibles , wanting and lost , some whereof yet is extant in some bibles at this day , in which confutation of t.d. i.o. is further confuted as to all those many places of his book , wherein he avers over and over again with exceeding earnestnesse his arch-assertion , viz. that not one iot nor tittle of divinely inspired scripture is lost , but every apex , and letter of it , as at first writing is transcribed downward to us , and preserved without any losse in the copies we now have , pag. . . and so this might stand for a final answer to i.o. and t. d. both as to that matter of the non entirenesse or perfection of the letter , which was given out upon inspiration , & of its integrals to this day , and an answer to i o's . confident positions and challenge concerning the uniformity of all bibles without variety in the least , which to his own confutation i here set down in his own words , of which yet more use that way may be made hereafter . i o. pag : . neither the care of god over his truth , nor the fidelity of the judaical church will permit us to entertain the least suspition that there was ever in the world any copy of the bible differing in the least from that which we enjoy , or that those we have are corrupted , as is pretended ; the authors of that insinuation cannot produce the least testimony to make it good . and pag. . let the authors of this insinuation prove the assertion ; name'y , that there was ever in the world any other copy of the bible differing in any one word from those we now enjoy : let them produce one testimony , one author of credit , jew or christian , that can or doth speak one word to this purpose : let them direct us to any relick , any monument , and kind of remembrance of them , and not put us off with weak conjectures , &c. and it shall be of weight with us : and epist. pag. , . we evidently find various lections n the greek copies which we enjoy , and so grant that which ocular inspection evinces to be true ; yet none of them are able to shew out of any copies yet extant in the world , or that they can make appear ever to have been extant , that ever there were any such various lections in the originals of the old testament . and so i come to take my leave of t.d. again for a while till i meet him again ( as i must do where he meets in one with i.o. in many other places ) and return to walk on a while with i. o. about the inclosure and bounds of his synodically composed , and humanely constituted , and compleated canon , which he takes it for granted by tradition before it be given him by the true anti-traditionaries , that it was closed and bounded by divine authority . and as concerning this consignation , signing , sealing , setting out , or authorizing of the canon as to the measure of it , or number of books so canonized ( the nature of which as a rule or canon is anon more spoken to ) i say , as above , i am yet to learn that lesson which i. o. who by road repeats it for truth , as if he had it at his fingers e●ds , never yet learn'd himself ( i believe ) by root of heart , nor can ever teach me , that by divine authority , or any otherwise then iure synodico , by meer mens will , wisdom , and imag●n●tion as they sate in councel together , not standing in gods councel , the light in the heart , taking counsel but not of him , nor at his mouth , but each from other ; and covered with a covering , but not of his spirit , it came at first to passe , that some 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or holy mens writings by the spirit must passe for currant coin , and stand as the standard , and reign as a rule and command in the high authority of a canon as the word of god , as truly as that very word that comes immediately from gods own mouth to holy pen-men , or that word it self , which the letter writes of , and other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or writings of holy men , yea , some of the self same men that wrote some of the rest , and those as legitimate too ( according to t d's hypothesis ) as the rest should be spurned out as spurious , so far at least . that they must not inherit with their fellowes , that conceited immortal , inmutable , and everlasting crown of that solemn canonization . i. o. i am sure , upon his principles , must grant me thus far , that if the bible of scripture , which he confesses to be his canon , lydius lapis , and touchstone to try all by , doth no where testifie any such thing within it self of it self , that such books , prophesies , stories , epistles , letters , psalms , proverbs , and other writings as are bound up in it , are of gods ; and such as are not there bound , though born testimony to there , as of as divine original as the rest , are not of gods own canonization , then it must be counted that that precise consignation of the canon ( as consistent of such only , and not of such books ) had its original being from some convocations or sessions of meer men , that were neither prophets nor apostles , but some that doted ( as doctors do now a dayes , being none themselves ) on the prophets and apostles persons , and such writings of theirs as best pleased them ; out of the scripture i know not where i. o. can pore for proof of any thing , who looks awry upon the light and spirit it came from , saving into that thing , which he so often calls his own thoughts , all which with me are not worth three-half-pence as to the begetting of any infallible unfeigned faith ; and if he will alledge 't is so , that this that 's in our bibles and copies only , is the rule of gods own consignation , and none of the rest mentioned there , must come into it , he is certain of it , he thinks so ( to which tune he frequently sings in his second treatise , or heap of uncertain assurances , or most assured vncertainties about the points ) he may keep his think to himself if he will , and never thrust that forth as an argument to evince any thing to us by ; its labour in vain , for we verily believe that in the most things at least that he gives us his thoughts about , he does think it to be as he sayes he thinks ' t is . but what 's what he thinks to other men ? is there any reason that we believing our own eyes , should beleeve the testimony of a man of no credit with us , asserting that for truth , which we know to be utterly false ? i appeal to j o. epist. pag. . but if he will say the scripture speaks any where of the bounding and consignation of its canon by so many , or so few , or by such and such books as are extant only in your bibles , and no other , i would fain know where it mentions any such , or where-ever the apostles in any of their synods or sessions had any hand in any such matter ; and if not , i iudge i o. to be past such a child , as to believe that what the synods of succeeding ages constituted , authorized , canonized or established , was done purely per jus divinum , or apostolicum either . yea , what i o sayes to the quakers in the case of calling to the light within , ex. . s. . proferant fanatici vel unum sacrae scripturae locum vel udum caelitus demissum testimonium , quo ad eorum sidei & obedientiae regulas seu directiones mittimur , &c. & causam non dicimas quin triumphant serio , &c. which challenge of i. o. i am to answer him in else-where . so say i to i.o. t. d. or any other thinkers or seemers to themselves to see . proferant fantastisi , &c. let these pretenders to the vision of this matter produce but one place of the holy scripture , or any testimony from heaven ( but such a one from above they can't , who deny gods spirit so speaking in these dayes as of old ) wherein god , christ , or the apostles set out the distinct bounds of their canon , directory , or standard of the old or new testament , by such a precise parcel of books as are in your bibles , and exclusively of any other holy writ , whether mentioned or not mentioned therein ; and wee l not say but they have cause in this case ( though if 't were as they say they must hang down their heads with shame in more ) to triumph in earnest ▪ si autem de suo tantum loquuntur mendaces sunt neque verum est eorum testimonium ; if they talk of their own heads of things about the scripture , which the scripture testifies not of it self they are lyars , and their testimony is not true . as to the canon , as ye call it , or standard of the old testament , there 's not the least tittle of tendency to any such thing hinted there , that it should consist of so many books , and such shall stand in it , and such other , though as legitimate , and mentioned to be of god therein , as well as the rest , shall be shut out , and stand by : and in very ezra alias esdras his dayes when there was such a paucity of copies as thou well sayest i.o. pag. . that in very deed the who'e law was burnt ( as to the originals its like at least ) esdras . , , &c. the care of him , and his companions , was great as thou sayest , as to the restoring of the scripture to its purity when it had met with the greatest tiyal that ever it under-went before , insomuch that what books could be gotten together were copied cut , or else written de novo by the light of understanding kindled in esdras his heart by the lord , and many excellent thing done as to the recovery of the law into more purity in the very letter of it out of the babilonish rubbish , &c. but what 's all this as to the settling of this , and that , and t'other prophecy into the distinct measure of a standard by divine appointment , and dis-canonizing all others save such as are in your bibles called canonical , whether those of the seers , gad , nathan , iddo and the rest abovesaid that are specified in your bibles , or those later which are allowed a room and standing in your bibles , though not a room and standing in your rule and standard thereof , called apocryphal , of which some were esdras his own as well as some of the rest . besides 't is evident , that esdras and his companions , if the consigration and bounding of the canon were in their dayes , or by their sanydrim set a work , and ordered by the insallible spirit of god therein , wrote a number more of books , esdras . . . then are now extant in your bibles , which if all lost , it makes against i.o. still , that sayes not an apex of what was by divine inspiration , is lost ; and so his great engine out of which he shoots short against the truth , his standard and canon comes still lame , and short , and halting home . and also though esdras and his company compiled many , yet the last volume of the psalmes is more credibly supposed , if i would enter into i. o's . work of answering conjecture with conjecture , to be truss'd up together in the dayes of the maccabees , but all here is uncertain , and carried to and fro by conjectures , and so there 's nothing sure on i. o's side . and as to the newer and later scripture since christ , where is the least touch of such a businesse of constituting some few certain books of those many more then we have , which were then written , into a canon , and discarding othersome , whether such as we want , or such legitimate ones as we have , as that to laodicea from within the coasts and quarters of your canon ? nay , rather the scripture of the new sayes , as in the places above cited , rom. . . cor. . . tim. . . . pet. . . . that all scriptures that are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , given , or written by inspiration of old time , were to the same purpose that any at all were ; so that if any of it all , then all of it is to be listed into that lydium lapidem , and to be confederate with the rest , and to come by right into the confines of your canon , all what ever was so written being alike written for our instruction , alike profitable , alike publick , and none of it of a more private interpretation then the rest ; does that of t. d's . citing , and i. o's . also , ex. . . ( viz. ) iob. . . . prove any such thing ? if that be exclusive of any scripture at all , it must be of all that which was written after it ; forasmuch as , according to t. ds. exposition of it , it intimates a sufficiency in that which was already written ; and ( if wee l be befool'd with his sinister senses , and mindlesse meanings on the scripture ) that when he had written that , there was as much as god himself thought sufficient to be written at all as a rule of faith , or in order to mens beleeving , pag. . these are written that ye might be'eeve , and have life ; as if he should say , here 's enough , what need more ? and as the preacher said of old , of making many books , there 's no end ; by these be thou admonished , they are words of truth , therefore heed no more , eccles. . . . will any of you say that in iohn ( yet t. d twines it such a way ) will bear such a construction as to be conclusive of some scriptures of spiritually inspired men into the use of a canon or standard , and exclusive of others as much of god as those ? on this account , as one might interpret solomon , as cutting off from the canon all the prophets writings that succeeded his in the old testament scripture ; so one must interpret iohn as excluding out of the standard of the new testament all ensuing writings of holy men but his own , and his own epistles and revelation also , which were posterior , or successive to his history then in hand , as utterly uselesse and superfluous . credat apelia . doth that gal. . as many as walk according to this rule , or canon , do it ? which blind guides and people so hastily patter over , as if that mentioned the whole bible and all that writing , and not a tittle more then what 's bound up in it , besides the apocrypha ; when i shall shew in its proper place , it s spoken of no external scripture of writing at all ; i say , will that prove some to be authorized of god for the standard , and some even of the same holy mens writings though yet extant , not to be so ? is there any such distinction in the sound of that term [ this rule ] whereby ( if it were meant of scripture , as it s nothing lesse ) to give us to discern that paul in that expression includes his two epistles to corinth , and that one to ephesus and this to galatia , and the rest of his own and other apostles writings , even the revelation it self , that was not wrote in his dayes , that are concincinated in your copies as intended of god to be the standard , and excludes his first to corinth , his first to ephesus , and that to laodicea , as not intended of god to stand in the standard , but to stand below it to be tryed , and judged by it ? or by ( this rule ) did he mean no more then what was already written , which of you wise men that render in your interpretations that term ( rule ) there of an outward letter , can riddle me this ? if so as ye say , then he quite cuts off what should be written after this , either by himself , for any other inspired writer , and so all iohns epistles , and his revelation rom coming into that right it hath to rule as the standard among the rest ? or if no , then that place ( and indeed it doth not ) makes not at all to i. o's . purpose ; who yet quotes it in proof of his canon as carelesly as others do , for customs sake , among a vast company of other texts that he crowds on a heap one a top of another , not one of which proves the point he there propounds , viz. scripturam post completum ejus canonem esse regulam , perfectissimam ita ut nullae revelationes sint admittendae ; that the scripture is so perfect a rule or canon , that after the compleating of its canon ( which was not when paul wrote to galatia , if iohns epistles , and the revelation be a part of it ) [ mark that ] no more revelations must be admitted , see ex . s. . not one iot more then the green circle , that is seen about it in some misty nights , proves the moon to be made ( as they say ) of green cheese . and now i am upon that term of thine i. o. post completum ejus canonem ; let me take it while it is in my mind , i much muse what ye mean by this so often compleating and bounding of your canon ; and marvel what epoche iuncture and period of time this perfecting of your canon and standard as to all its integral parts must take its being and beginning ( as such ) and be counted from , so that before that time it can't be called a perfect rule or standard : if it be from that time which i. o. calls the close of the immedia●e revelation of gods will , pag. . made when iohn had written the revelation , after which i.o. thinks nothing more was ever to be added by way of new inspination ( which thought of i. o's . i shall think to talk with hereafter ) it from that time i say , and not before , then t was not compleat it seems when iohn wrote that iob. . . nor yet when paul wrote that gal. . . and so neither of those two places cited by both i.o. or t. d , do prove their rule-perfect as to its integrals , and compleat already , when paul and iohn wrote them : and yet for all that i can find by i.o. and t.d. both , they not only count their canon compleat and perfect at the time of the writing of those two verses , but likewise produce those very two verses , viz. i.o. both and t d. one of them , viz. joh. . . and expresly and in effect the other , to prove their rule to be a most perfect rule and compleat canon already long afore the supposed close thereof in the revelation ; yea , ( counting from the time of the penning of that place , ioh. . , . ) we have already ( quoth t.d. pag. . ) as much as god thought sufficient ; as if that history of iohn had pin'd the basket , and brought up the recto all the whole standard of outward scripture , and compleated it al●e●●y as sufficiently as god thought fit it ever should be ; yea , so sufficient , as that all that should be written after , should be held superfluous . no more then a most perfect rule , it is now , a compleat canon , sufficient standard , adaequate to all cases that come to be tryed by it , inalterable touchstone , immutable measure to measure all spirits by , to which nothing may be added ( and i confesse , if the writing be the rule , standard , measure , true word of god ; which its but a writing of , it ought to remain from the first to the last , ad amussim , exactly the same , as to its measure as well as to its nature , and to have not one iot , not an inch , not a tittle added to it to make it larger , longer , or wider then at very first canonizing and authorizing into its office , it ought to be steady and standing stedfast●y the same within it self , as well in its quantity , as quality , as a substantive and not such an adjective , as can't stand by it self without more , and more , and more words and writings still from time to time newly adjoyned to it , to shew its sense and signification about those things its to measure , determine , and to be the all in all , even both the rule and the iudge of , as ye make it ) i say it can be no more now it s thus compleated , as it is by successive additaments from moses himself to the revelation , and not one jot lesse , it was ( according to you conceited canonizers thereof ) before iohn or paul , or any of the new w●iters ever wrote ; no lesse then a perfect standard , that had its consignation and canonical bounding , and its borders , so set out , that what came not to hand , what appeared not at the session of that sanydrim , that sate in ezraes dayes , to try , and iudge on , and authorize what was fit to be the iudge and rule for themselves , and all after ages to be tryed by , must be condemned as apocryphal for ever ; and no lesse then so that little was , that was in the dayes of isaiah , before himself , or any of the prophets a●ter him had written : to the law , to the testimony ( cry out anti-testimonists from isa. . . like rooks and frogs , that gape and croak all alike for compan●es sake , to the same tune ) as if that were that little of the letter only that then was , which i shall shew anon , was another matter ; and no lesse then a compleated canon that little was that was in davids dayes , which was little more then the meer five books of moses ( if ioshua , and iudges , and ruth were then written ) the word was a light to davids feet , the law , the commandement of god david said was perfect , converting the soul , enlightning the eyes , rejoycing the heart , giving wisdom to the simple ( say the simpletons of these times ) never heeding that that commandement is the lamp , prov. . and the law that light in the heart the quakers speak of , ma●th . . . lu●e . and that word , by which the young man was to walk and cleanse his way , and that was a guide and a light to davids paths , was not the outward letter only of moses law ( for moses scriptures and writings , and davids too , did only testifie of it , deut . . . rom. . psal. . ) but the word that was nigh in the heart which david had , and hid also within him , that he might not sin against god , psal. . . yea , no lesse then a canon , that had its compleat consignation and bounding , for all truth , which was the same then as it is now ( substan●ially ) to be tryed by , when no more then moses five were extant , so long before it was enlarged into such a volume as now the bible is , by adding to the old word , were the letter that word of god , that 's the standing measure ; i know not what to make of all these additions to the word , if the letter be the word , which have been made from moses downward to this day , but matter of plagues , woes , and reproofs to the adders of their writings to the first writings ; but this i can say to the excuse of such as call moses five only a compleat canon , and in compleat authority as a standard , and a rule , and the word of god , and such like , full well may five , or any one book of moses , or any one chapter , or one verse , never so small , in either his or any other prophets scripture be so , when if wee l believe i. o. when he lyes , every tittle and iota of any of these outward writings is not only part of the word , but the word of the great god , as pag. . . yea , every apex of it equally , divine , and as immediately from god , as the voice wherewith , or whereby he spake to , or in the prophets ; and is therefore accompanied with the same authority ( i.e. ) as the whole is , both in it self , and unto us , pag. . so then every tittle is no lesse then a compleatly constituted canon , and the whole is no more then so . and further , as to the new testament ( as ye call the letter of it ) as there is not the least evidence , that any such thing as the specifying of what , and whose scriptures or writings the canon should consist of , and what not ; so can any of you , that stand up so stifly for your ( fancied ) stable standard , shew us where any order is given out by christ or his apostles to such as should succeed them , to take care to gather up their writings , and judge and try which of them they thought fit , and which not to own as their rule , and iudge , and accordingly digrading the rest , to canonize such as liked them best , to submit themselves to the tryal and iurisdiction of , into the high names and authority of the word of god , the iudge , the rule , the standing canon both to them , and all the world , and all after ages of it to the worlds end ? doth tim . . . ( twice at least cited by i o. for fear of failing viz. ex. . s . . ) prove it ? and doth tim. . . which is without either heed or wit urged , and by heedlesse i. o. as well as others , quoted ( though mis-quoted ) in the margin of pag. . to that purpose , prove in the least any such matter ? if it do , then say i am a dunce ; if not , then see whether they are fit to be doctors or teachers in divinity , that by reason of the beam in their eyes cannot behold , but divine so darkly besides a businesse that is as clearly contrary to what their brain conceives about it , as if it were written with a sun beam : for the words of paul to timothy are these , viz. the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses , the same commit thou to faithful men , who shall be able to teach others also : and in the other place these , but evil men , and seducers , shall wax worse and worse , deceiving and being deceived ( and so they do at this day , for all their scufling for the scripture ) but continue thou in the things , which thou hast learned , and been assured of knowing of whom thou hast learned them . whence it is by many , that would look upon themselves as wronged , if not looked upon as learned , as hastily concluded , as the places are hand-over head alledged . that paul bids timothy take the scripture first committed to him by himself , and commit it downwards to faithful men , that must commit and continue it downwards still to others , and so successively to the worlds end as a common , continual permanent , perpetually remaining canon and only standard for all nations , and spirits . gods , and mans , and doctrines , true and false , to stand or fall by , from thenceforth even for ever . which what a crooked consequence it is , who , but ignoramus , can be ignorant , whenas , if the scripture had been the subject spoken of there by paul , either it had extended no further then to his own scripture to timothy , which is but a petty portion , and poor pittance of pauls epistles , or if to all the rest of his epistles , then it had been conclusive of that to laodicea , and his first to corinth and ephesus , which have no being in your bibles , which you say contains all your canon , and are by t. d. excluded from any claim to it ; but in very deed there 's no such thing at all as the scripture or outward text there , either talkt on or intended ; but the things timothy had learn't and heard from paul by word of mouth , as well as writing , which though i own to be truths and doctrines , and things which are evermore according to the scripture ( the spirit , from which that was , never contradicting it self ) yet were another thing then the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , the writing or scripture it self ; paul sayes not those scriptures , which thou hadst of me , &c. commit to faithful men to make a standard of , but those doctrines truths , which thou hast heard of me , commit ; ( and those truths were concerning the light which paul was sent to turn men to , and not the letter , for he sayes god made him , and the rest , ministers not of the letter , but of the spirit , act. . . cor. . . and the gift of god within timothy , which he bids him stir up , tim. . ) neither did paul go up and down testifying to the scriptures as a standard , and telling men , which should be the touchstone and which scriptures not , but the things , which were witnessed to there , testifying no other things , quod essentiam , to be believed or done then what were written in , and spoken by the law and the prophets , acts . . & . . and those things timothy heard , learned , and was assured of from pauls both words and writings ; as also the things the thessalonians , thess. . . had delivered to them partly by pauls preachings , and partly by his epistles , and were accordingly to stand fast and continue in , but they were not the bare bible it self , or writings , or scriptures themselves , which were not then by paul or any bundled up and carried about in a book to take a text , and talk out of for money , as ministers do now adayes . and if i. o. insist upon the next words , viz. tim. . . which place mentions the holy scriptures , and is mentioned i know not how many times over in i. o's . book , in proof of that , which it in no wise evinces , and must be more plainly spoken to by me in due place . rep. i confess that next verse doth mention the scriptures , but more against , then to j. o's , purpose , and more disproves then proves what he draws from the other ; yea , it assures us , that it was not the scriptures in any wise meant in the . verse , for paul saith to timothy , that from a child he had known the holy scriptures ( i.e. ) of the old testament , for those of the new were not as yet canonized , nor all written , if any of them were at all written in timothies nonage ; but the things he had heard and learned of paul , and was bid to continue in , and commit to other faithful men to teach , were such as he had come into the knowledge and assurance of after he was taken by paul ( acts . , , . ) to travel with him , which was not till he was grown past a child ; if that expression , knowing of whom thou hast learned , vers. . be granted to relate to paul , which ( yet for ought you literatists are able to gain say ) may rather relate to the lord himself by the gift of whose grace ( i e ) the light and spirit in him , timothy was ( and yet according to the scriptures ) taught both more lately , tim. ● . . and from a child . so that neither of these two texts teach any such matter as any of the outward text of the new testament scriptures being either canonized by the apostles in their dayes , or ordered by them to be stated as a standard in the councels of succeeding ages : and whatever men did ( de facto ) that way in the second or third centuries , the antiquity whereof ( as venerable as it is to some anti-scriptural , and anti-spiritual antiquaries ) is with us but novelty and superstition , if it appear not to descend ( de iure ) from the first ; yet we quary still ( quo iure ) by what authority from god , christ , or the apostles , the synods , and men that so authorized and canonized what scriptures seemed to them , as challenging * so high a title and office , as the word of god , rule , foundation , canon , standard , and such like , secluding other writings , as holy as these , were authorized , or commanded so to do themselves ? neverthelesse , how weakly doth i o. ( confessing first , that it doth not appear that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the several writers of the scriptures of the new testament ( and the same say i of the first manuscripts of the old , which were burnt and lost , and scambled away before ezraes s●nydrim , if the consignation and bounding of the canon thereof was done by him and his companions , as i.o. sayes ) were ever gathered into one volume , there being now no one church to keep them for the rest ; and that the epistles , though immediately transcribed for the use of other churches , col. . . ( as i. o. thinks at least all were , because some were ) were doubtlesse kept in the several churches whereto they were directed ; which confession , if true , as sure enough it is , clears it that the original copies were never viewed together in one bulk by any councel or synod , whereby to put it into a capacity to iudge and determine of their fitnesse to make a canon of , but only mens copies of the original , which but that every man will think his think , and i.o. think as well as may be of it , * yet who can assuredly , insallibly , uncontroleably tell as i o. sometimes ( though sometimes again he will seem but to think so ) undertakes to do in his grand assertion , that they answer the first original in every tittle and iota ? ) i say , before-hand confessing all this , how weakly doth i.o. assert with confidence his thoughts in this as a point of faith , pag. , . that from those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , there were quickly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , transcribed copies given out to faithful men , whilst the infallible spirit continued yet his guidance in an extraordinary manner , alluding to tim. . . as his only proof thereof , out of which original copies , or rather copies of the originals so transcribed ( for the originals themselves never came together to be considered of by any councel ) this supposed canon was composed by the annexing of the revelation to the rest by i o. said to be finally compleated , pa● . . god ( quoth he ) doth command the close of the immediate revelation of his will to be written in a book , rev. ●● and so gives out the whole of his m●nd and councel to us in writing , as a stedfast relief against all confusion , darknesse , vncertainty , &c. reply . as if , all canonical certainty were no where but in a written letter , then which in regard of its liablenesse to be altered easily many wayes by lewd criticks , whom i. o. teaches to do it , pag. , , , , . as also by meer mis-transcriptions ; mis-translations , mis●constructions , nothing is more uncertain to make a standard of , unlesse it be the unutterably erring breast or head of that harlot that rides the beast , and the unwritten traditions that are traduc●d , ad infinitum , from the same . . as if the light and spirit that shines and breaths in the hearts of all , but most brightly and powerfully in the hearts of such as heed it , were not more infallibly self evidencing , and certainly , and stedfastly demonstrative of the mind and will of god when looked on in its naked native lustre , then when beheld thorow the vail of a letter , which while moses put over his face , the children of israel could never see certainly , nor distinctly discern , nor look stedfastly to the end of that which is abolished , but were blind in their minds , as our ministers of the letter are at this day , upon whose hearts the vail is untaken away , and ever will be , till , according to the call of the letter , they turn to the light within , that comes from , and leads to the lord himself , christ iesus , that spirit , in whom only the vail is done away , cor. . per totum . . as if the truest and most infallible demonstration were non ex veris , prioribus , certioribus , notioribus & causis internis scripturae , but ex fallibilibus , flexibilibus , posterioribus , obscurioribus & effectis , not by the internal causes , the truth and the word it self the scripture came from , which are before it , more certain and known then it , save to such as are willingly ignorant of them , but by the scripture , which is but effectus per emanationem , the effect , that externally flowes from it , flexible , fallible , as alterable at criticks wi●ls , and unavoidably by mens weaknesse in transcribing , translating , expounding , &c. at a nose of wax , a lesbian rule , more obscure , yea , obscurity i●le●f in the most plain places to the seers , that search it not in the light and spirit , but the dark lanthorn of their own imagination . ah poor deluded soul , i. o. whom i pitty more really and unfeignedly , then thou the quakers , and for pitties sake dare not spare sharpnesse towards thy proud-fleshly wisdom , that interposes and opposes it self against the light and power of god , in a shew of science falsly so called , that thy spirit may be saved in the day of the lord jesus . thou talkest of certainty of thy rule , which is the letter , and of stedfast relief against all vncertainty thereby ; alas poor heart , whence come all those huge heaps ; and whole chapters of vncertainty it self , which thy t●o treatises doth wholly stand in , but from that utter vncertainty , that is in thy meerly literal rule , which thou there treatest upon , that is so far from stedfastnesse , that thou art forced to confesse more variety in it at last , then at first entrance to treat on its fixednesse , thou wast either witting or willing enough to do ; which rule or letter , as much as it hath been , and is capable to be wrested , is not by far at such uncertainty in it self , as ye that profess to be ruled by it , and stand upon it , as your basis , are at endlesse odds and infinite uncertainty in your conjectures and guesses about it ; insomuch that it grieves me not a little for your sakes to see your souls so sunk over head and ears in confusion and confused noises about it , in which the sweet still voice and silent whisperings of the spirit of christ within can have no audience in that crowd of pro and cons , that ye are cumbred with about your very foundation , which ye have not found yet , so as to this day to abide fixt and firm , or to be quiet concerning it in any academies upon earth , but in vain ianglings in all corners thereof from one end of christendom to another : yea , i professe in the sight of god , that in such grief and bowels i write about it , that this page and passage passes not from under my pen without being watered with many tears for your sakes , whom i see perishing by your own iuglings , unlesse happily ye will yet be pull'd as brands out of the fire ; and in no wise think i.o. that i am so angry at your folly ( which the deceit may suggest unto you ) as offended at the enmity it self , that flyes up within you , and befools you . and seeing that thou i.o. seemeth to beg , wish , and hope for such a thing ( crying out , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in case of novelty of points , and variety of lections , as nor seeing any means of being delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all sacred truth ) that those who have more wisdom , and learning , and are able to look throw all the digladiations that are like to ensue on these principles , would nather take the pains to instruct th●e and such as thou art , then be angry or offended with you , that ye are not so wise or learned as themselves ; and desiring such as are shaken in mind , to read the useful miscellany notes of ( as thou callst him ) the learned mr. pocock . reply : . not as one angry or offended that ye are not so wise or learned as my self . nor . as one pretending to much of that ye call wisdom and learning , which lyes more in outward tongues , arts , or sciences ( falsly so called ) then in that of the spirit , for want of which peter calls men ( never so wise and well learned otherwise ) both unlearned and unstable , and ( for all their buste buslings about it ) not openers , but wresters of the scripture to their own ruine which shelly , shallow theory into things of that nature , perhaps i have forgotten more of for the naked gospels sake , then many of our preachers of the gospel for pay ever learned , and yet have enough left , whereby to discern many country teachers or doctors to be dunces in it , yet what ever my measure is , more or lesse , further then as an earthly talent , foolish instrument , or wooden tool for a long time laid aside , and here taken up again to serve the truth with , against those that fight therewith against truth , it s utterly lost and become dung and losse it self to me for the excellency of the knowledge of christ my lord that spirit , in the spirit and truth in the inward parts : and of that aforesaid thin , foamy speculation , i acknowledge that many of you have not only much more , then my long since countrified self , but much more also then either does good , or does you good , unlesse ye had more of the true wisdom from above , whereby to use it to a better end then ye do . * yet , dly . as one who have obtained so much mercy , and ability frō god to see throw all the digladations that are likely to ensue on the principles that are now in agitation among your selves , as wel as between the quakers and your selves , i herein take so much pains as is worth so much patience as ye men of war are like to have with me for so doing , and tell you in the name and dread of the living god , whether ye bear or forbear ; that the shakings of mind that are among the learned lievtenants of antichrist at their gates of hell ( as honest iohn hus , and learned luthur stiled the vniversities ) about their own literal and fallible foundation , will assuredly end in the final fall of it ( as a foundation ) and all the digladiations of those swattering sword-men , who pretend to be fighting with the sword of the spirit about their supposed sword of the spirit ( i.e. ) the bare outward letter , which they mistake for the word of god , when in reality they are at it with but the scabbard about the scabbard , will end in no lesse then the very sheathing of the true sword of the spirit in the bowels of the babel builders , that are so blindly busie about it in their divided speeches & confounded languages , and in the bringing down the babel which ye all agree to build upon it , * whereby to over-top the light and truth it self the letter talks on , the fall and coming down of which tripple tower of the tripple tribe of levi , the clergy or lot ( as they call themselves ) of the lords own inheritance , hath already raised from their thrones all the kings of the nations , and moved hell from beneath to meet them , isa. . . and what work more will attend this great catastrophe of that chaos , even the old heaven and earth , the worldly rudiments of which begin to melt , and the frail foundations thereof to shake , that they may remove , and the new come in place , that must remain , will ( as the lord lives ) make the eares to tingle in a little time to come , that now refuse to hear of it from the tongues and pens of the lords prophets , to whom it is revealed , and their minds amazed , and their hearts shake and shiver that harden themselves against the troublesome testimony of it . wherefore , if thou art in earnest in thy enquiry , i tell thee i.o. by way of answer to thy 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that if not only thy rich possession ( as thou stilest it ) of the hebrew punctation , and that non-variety , or unity , and indentity of lection in thy copies , but also all the copies of the original that are in the world , and translations too , come utterly to moulder , perish , and passe away , as the originals themselves have long since done ; yet truth is the same that it was before any letter or outward text of it was , both quoid essentiam , and quoad explicationem also in the hearts and consciences of all men in a measure , and in such a measure in the minds of such as love it , and walk in what of it is therein by the light and spirit of god made manifest , that there 's no such need to them , as there is to thy self and others , who yet hatest the light , of such piteous out-cryes as thou makest upon the hypothesis aforesaid , nor of such direful affrightments and amazements as over take and ●u●prize thee and all the hypocrites and sinners in sio● , whose manition it self is now nothing but magor misabib , fear round about ; while theirs , who walk up ightly by the light , and live by i● , which leads into the substance of the lite it self the letter calls for , is the manition of rocks , and salvation it self , which god appoints to them for walls and b●●warks ; yea , these dwell with that devouring fire and everlasting burnings , which are now kindled by the worlds wickednesse , and burning down to hell , to the consuming the very foundations of the earth ; and with god himself , who is a consuming ●re to the stubble , and c●ass , and bryars , and thorns , that are now set against him to battel , and their daily bread is given them , and their waters shall be sure , so that they shall not need with the wicked , whose trust is in man , upon whom the curse of the heat cometh , who inhabit the parched places of the wildernesse , and must not know when the good cometh , nor taste of the streams that flow in the desert , nor of the brooks , nor of the floods of honey and butter , to send such hot and hasty hae and cryes , as thou dost , after a long since lost letter to live upon , to see if any can tell tydings of every tittle , apex , and iota thereof , or else all life of truth is lost for ever , if all these dead things be not found , restored , recouered and revived to that life they never had , and rendezvouz'd again out of the romish rubbish : what shall such as follow the lamb wheresoever he goes , and have come throw great tribulation with him , and washed their r●bes white in his blood , and been thereby redeemed from the earth , and tongues , and kind eds thereof , and stand with him on mount sion , and hear his voice , as his sheep did of old , become such babes and idiots again , as to think with thee , and thy fellow thinkers , that all truth 's lost , if one tittle of the text of your transcripts have been s●●●t by fallible scribes in their transcribings of it ; and to wander over the world from library to library , author to author so their thoughts , from academy to academy with you universally betwa●ed university wonderers after 〈◊〉 , and boyes toyes , and cou●ters , and tags , and pins , and points , and tittles , and iotaes , and such rich possessions , infinite inheritances , guilded horn-book-geer , primer promises , psalters , and old testaments , and bibles , and books , which they could read as perfectly as your selves long since , as to the literal sense thereof , which ye labour so about , that ye have no leasure to learn and look into the mastery of the holy matter it self ; and many more such gay trimmings , and trappings wherewith ( like children that think themselves fine when they are bestangled and hung with points ) our academian adorers of the dead corps of their ( conceited ) to a tittle entirely true and exactly corrected copies , deem themselves above all men to be adorned ? shall we ( because thou seest none ) see no means of being delivered from utter uncertainty in , and about all sacred truth it self , if the text , wherein it s but 〈◊〉 , be translated totally away , or but mis-transcribed , or mistranslated in some tittles , or but taken away from the points , that men at several periods have put to it ? what silly suppositions are these to you ( supposed ) seers , or ( deemed ) true teachers ( for shall we think our learned divines do not certainly divine the truth ? say the young students and stupid starers upon the 〈◊〉 and stones they take councel at ) who when all is done are but meer de●●●s and supposers , and such as can treat out no more but your thoughts about either that sacred antiquity of your present punctation , p. . or your so absolutely asserted integrity and identity of your naked literal text , without any corruption of it by any mis-transcriptions , or variety of lections in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , pag . . yea verily , whether we consider either one or t'other of these two bottoms that thou thinkest all sacred truth and certainty of it is so founded upon , that if they fail all falls remedilesly for ever , p. . thou i. o. makest no provision for so much as the probable proof of these , but leavest them both , notwithstanding al thy seruple about them ( on the certainty of which thou makest all truth everlastingly to depend ) as uncertain at least as they were without thy talk for them , or , if there be any alteration at all in the case of their uncertainty , thou hast by thy hosty bandling of that matter made it more certain and out of doubt to me , then it was before , that the points are novel , and not coaevous with the consonants , and that the letter is abundantly altered and corrupted in the very copies of the original text itself . take but a review i.o. of some few of thy thoughts upon these two matters , and thou wilt discern , if thou be not blinded , that all the world may see thy overlashing positions ( viz. that the points are coaevous with the first manuscripts , and that the text remains intirely the same in your transcripts as at first giving out , without any losse , alteration or corruption to a tittle ) are supported with no more then solely thy suppositions . chap. iv. first , for the punctation , what positively thou affirmest of it in a note above ela , is to be seen in thy epist. pag. . . . and in thy book pag. . . . . . and throwout the whole four and five chapters of thy second treatise : at present , wee 'l see how piteously thou underproppest thy opinion about it with the putting in of thy meer imaginations to other mens , and not to say imposing , but opposing thy suppositions , taken from the meer suppositions of such learned authors as thou sidest with , against the ( more solidly ) grounded suppositions of such as were , are , and are confessed by thy self to be learned , as well as they : and how thou confessest thou answerst one conjecture no otherwise then with another , and standst thrusting with thy weak , wonted weapon of ( shall we think ) pag. . against others strong arguments to the contrary . first , it is urged , and that with no little shew of truth , that the old hebrew letters being those the samaritan pentateuch is written with at this day , and that the samaritan letters having alwayes been , and still being without points , it must follow that the points are an invention and innovation of a later date then the change of the letters , which was not till ezraes dayes , and not goaeuous with the first scripture , pag. . in which the consequence being undeniable , thou makest bold to think the antecedent may be false ; and among a deal more of doubtful stuffe to say , that 't is most uncertain when , and in what character the samaritans received the pentateuch , p. . & that the letters thereof were the antient hebrew letters : as for what eusebius , hierom , and some of the rabbins report , it seems to thee on the best enquiry thou art able to make a groundlesse tradition and meer sable , because though eusebius affirmed it was so affirmed , yet tells not on what ground ; and though hierom himself be positive in it , yet he might be mistaken in this as well as he was in some other things like to it , as pag. . he saw not all things ; and that the talmud is of no weight with thee . reply . what pedling disproof is here of i.o. pushing against two antient fathers positions , and the testimony of the whole talmud of the rabbins , with no more then the bean-stalk of his own suppositions and slender sayings , it 's of no weight with me ; it seems to me a tradition , pag . and , it doth not appear to me , whence this change of character should arise ; the jewes are thought , and said in the captivity to have forgot their own character , and learn'd the caldean , so as to adhere to it in their return , but that the men of one age should forget the use of their own letters is incredible . yet say i more then credible ; yea , certain it is , that though the antients alive at the burning of the first , and building of the second temple , did not likely forget their own , yet in and after the captivity the chaldean character was used , witnesse the books of daniel , ezra , nehemiah , ester , in which much is written in chaldee ; i say then , what straw and stubble , and unsteady stuffe is all this , which our doctoral students in divinity stand so upon as to stiffen themselves by it against each other in their sturdy disputes about their stupidities ? yet so far are solid saints from putting any stresse , much more so much as i.o. who states and trusts no lesse then whole sacred truth thereon , upon such ticklish pinnacles and points , or from strengthning themselves in their faith towards god thereby , that it s even a stink to them to see any so senslesse , as so to do , on either hand , pag. . . the argument for the novelty of the points from the antient iudaical coines found with samaritan characters upon them , is refel'd with the rush of thy own ridiculous and reasonlesse fancies ; which sith they are too frivolous to rehearse , i refer the reader , that is minded to be so foolish as to follow thee in that high road ( as thy self there callst it , and so savest me the labour of sprinkling it into that name ) of forgeries and fables , in which thy self , as well as those thy opponents are altogether , to pag. , , , . where he may read thee rendring of simple supposition against supposition , or rather against position , disproving ignotum per magis ignotum , dubium per magis dubium , pelting back out of thy pot-gun such brown paper as this at the probable arguments of others , ( viz. ) may we not think , &c. it is not improbable that it was so old , nor is it improbable that 't was so , &c. i cannot think the greeks of old used only the vncial letters , which yet we know some did , &c. i shall crave leave to answer this conjecture with another , and grant that such a change was made , yet this prejudices not them in the least , who affirm ezra , and the men of the great congregation , to have been the authors of the points ; nay , it casts a probability on the other hand , namely , that ezra laying aside the old letters , because of their difficulty , together with the other introduced the points , to facilitate their use . and lastly , to bring up the reerward of thy manifold fictions foisted out against the urgings of that probable proof from the characters upon the coines , after thou hadst prosecuted them a while passim testaque lutoque , thou concludest thus , viz. now let any man iudge from this heap of vncertainties ( of which say i i. o's . there accumulated , are i know not how many , to one of the other ) any thing can arise with the face of a witnesse to be admitted to give testimony ; on either hand , say i , much lesse on i. o's . whos 's own heap of confessed uncertain conjectures is manifold more massy , then that of his antagonists , yea , as weighty as the very wind it self . he that will part with his possession on such easie terms ( quoth i.o. there ) never found much benefit by it . and , say i , he that will part with much labour and pains to find out the antiquity of this possession of hebrew letters , points and tittles , and think to get much benefit by purchasing it to himself therewith , as r●ch and ancient an inheritance , as i. o. pretends it is , pag. . . and as many millions as he sayes pag. . look'd on , and enjoyed it for many ages as their chiefest treasure , pag. . he shall assuredly have his labour for his pains . and if i may crave leave to interpose so far as to answer i. o's . many uncertain ones , with one more certain conjecture , i tell i o. that he hath himself conjectured away the very thing he conjectured for , and tost his own cause so long to and fro among the multitude of his uncertain thoughts , conjectures , and suppositions , till unawares to himself , in the crowd thereof , he hath lost it altogether , and supposed it into the very bosom of his opponents ; for if ezra , and his congregation were the authors of the points , and introduced them ( as he sayes the argument from the characters on the coines renders it probable that they did , pag. , as is abovesaid ) then proculdubio , for certain and of a truth it may both be conjectured , and must be credibly and infallibly believed , that they are so far from being coaevous with the first manuscripts , that they were invented and introduced ( though before the tiberian massorites ) yet after all that he owns as the canonical scripture of the old testament was first written ; and so he gives it in for granted that they are a novelty , and not a thing that was from the beginning of the scripture , which is that he is to prove , or else it comes short of his purpose , so as to adde an inch to his arch assertion of a non alteration of the text , as at first given out in any tittle , and so , as if he had not , in pag. . to the contradicting of his own meer conjecture and conceit of their coaevousnesse with the immediate manuscripts , said thus , i no wayes doubt , but as we now enjoy the points , we shall manifest that they were compleated by ezra and his companions , and so confounded himself enough ; he hath by this reiteration of the same self-confuting . conjecture about the points , overthrown himself as to that point altogether the first writing of the pentateuch , being by his own confession , pag. . a thousand years elder then ezra , and according to himself all the rest both written and lost before ezra the scribe and his fellows dayes , who he makes but the transcribers and restorers of them ; so pag. . out of azarias he ascribes the figure and character of the points to ezra , and the restoration of their use to the massorites ; whether then the points be from ezra , or the tiberian massorites , is much at one to the root and bottom of thy businesse i. o. which is to evince , that the text stands entirely the same in your pointed copies to a tittle , without variation from what it was , when first written , and that the points are coaevou with the scripture it self : and thou talkst that according to the general belief of the jewes they are ( if not from moses , yet ) at least from ezra , not denying the use and knowledge of them received a great reviving by the massorites , when they had been much disused , pag. . from which massorites yet ( for ought thou clearly , or any more but conjecturally , and very uncertainly makst appear to the contrary ) they might as well receive their first being , according to the testimony of elias levita who ( as thy self sayest , pag. . ) was the most learned grammarian of the iewes in his age , and assistant to paulus fagius in his noble promotion of the hebrew tongue ; and the testimonies of luther , the renownedst reformer , in his time , as ever europe had , and of zainglius and others then that imbraced his opinion , and of capellus whom thou stilest a learned protestant divine ; and of that learned professor , dr. iohn prideaux in his publick lecture at the vespers of your own oxonian counitia , on that subject ; which dr. i.p. it s no disparagement to dr. i.o. to confesse to have been in his time far before himself , as to schoole divinity , though we know that o. stands preferred a little before p. in the horn-book , pag. , , , of thy epist. and to capellus his argument that ' t was likely . elias spake on principles of conviction of truth , because against the common interest of all his people , which seems to have weight in it , how pedlingly thou replyest and pelletest out thy putations to the contrary , pag. , , . a very boy may behold ; the most material of which is this , viz. that the testimony of this one elias should be able to out-weigh the constant attestation of all the learned jewes to the contrary , as capellus pleads , and as is insinuated in that prolegomena is fond to imagine ; to which i say , why so ? elias thou confessest to assert what he did in such honestly , as not in way of sleighting the points , nor the scripture , any more then if they had been the work of ezra , from whose dayes , and no higher , thou derivest their pedigree ( but sith thou canst not do it from moses , thy antiquity is but novelty with us ) so , why may not the testimony of one learned and honest elias now out-weigh the testimony of many iewes , now ( whose general testimony thou sleightest , and them too , as wicked , when they speak against thee ) as well as the testimony of one elias of old out-weighed that of of the prophets of boal , and the groves , king , ? thirdly , and as to the argument from the iewes keeping a copy without points , which they adore in their synagogues , thereby little lesse then implying the points to be of man , and not of divine original ; which argument is of weight , for , if the letters were the word , and the points with them a part , of as divine original as the rest , they durst not diminish ought , much lesse so great a part as the points , knowing the curse denounced in it against all detracters from it , deut. . . this thou resellest as falsly , and self-confutingly as the rest , saying , pag. , , . . it s the constant opinion and perswasion of them all ( elias only excepted ) that they are of divine extract . reply . which if it were as certain to thee , as it but seems so , on the conjectures of such , as thou sidest and consultest with ; yet elias ( ur prius ) might be right , and they all wrong , being all under the curse , as well as some , so that their testimony about scripture , though they have it among them , is no more to be heeded with thee , where it makes against thee ( and why it should be more when it makes for thee , a reasonable man can't see ) then aesops fables , as to the use of the whole talmud of the robbins in christian religion , pag. . . . to let passe the rest as pedling , thou tellest that and the reason why the jewes ( who have , for ought i find , more books without then with points ) have their canon and standard without them , is ( as they alledge ) the difficulty of transcribing copies without any failing , the least rendring the whole book , as to its use , in their synagogues , prophane . reply . to which say i , if it be so difficult , then how darest thou date so deeply as thou dost on the unquestionablenesse of the transcripts of the bible with points being as entire to a tittle as the first ? this is ( ad hominem ) enough to confute thy own vain confidences about the non-corruption of the text throw all ages to this day . and again , because the least failing renders their standard prophane , therefore they 'l make their standard of such a copie , as shall fail altogether , as to the points , as divinely essential a part with them ( secundum te ) as the very consonants themselves : credat appella : he that believes not that conjecture about the scripture , shall never come into condemnation ( as i.o. talks some shall for not owning the whole letter and its tittles as the word of god ) for his damnable unbelief , i dare assure him . . that the jewes end seems to be this in not pointing their standing copies , viz. that none be admitted to read or sing the law in their synagogues until he be so perfect in it , as to be able to observe all points and accents in a book where there are none of them . reply . which is another whimzy of thy own brain , for i have often seen and heard their service read and sung in their synagogues by young boyes , as the mouth of the whole body of or years of age or little more , however at utter incapacity to observe all points so exactly as thou speakst of , where there are none . and to the rest of thy answers throw that whole chapter to the other arguments against the coavousnesse or connaturalnesse of the points , from elias his testimony , the talmuds silence about the points , the keri and ketib , from the number of points and vowels , beyond that of differences of the sounds assigned to them , the antients silence about their vse among the hebrews , which are cogent enough to any but such as thy self , who buildst all sacred truth upon the uncertain bottom of these apices and points , and thereupon are foolishly afraid , that all the word of god must go out of the world , if thy fancies about them be not owned , * they are made up of such a dirty deal of tittle tattle and frivolous fabulosity , that as very a fool as i have become for thy sake & the truths , to medle so much with these immaterialities , and rake so far as i have done into this pudle of thy pedantick prate for thy so highly-prized points , yet ( as thou , p. . ) i shall forbear , having better accounts to give of my time and hours , then to be mad in that manner , and shall insanire cum ratione ; and though i have turned my self a while with thee to behold , and take a view of some of thy madnesse and folly , yet i shall wade no farther after thee into any more particular consideration of thy many vanities in that chapter , but after a while return to things of more worth among wise men , telling thee this for truth i. o. that the dark and dismal dreamings of thy ( self-devised ) dangers hanging over the head of all sacred truth , to the making havock thereof , which have entered and centered themselves in thy imaginatory mind , and of that mischief which thou conceivest will accrue to your carnal , clerical c●n●e●nments and earthly interests , honours , profits , and preferments , in case the scripture and its transcripts and tittles , which is the commodity ye mainly trade in , be not kept up in that over-high account it hath been in , in times of ignorance , and thereby poor people kept still in dependance on your vniversity doctorships , under blind conceits , that they cannot learn the mind of god but by your expositions , pag. . and that great uncertainty which thou ( not seeing yet thy self , but jeering , as doctorem infallibilem , the only true infallible doctor or teacher , the light and spirit of god within ) seest and confessest , pag . ye shall be left unto in all your translations and expositions of the scripture , without the owning of these points to be of divine original ; and thy knowing that ye must , to the shame of your selves , and the shaking of your kingdom in the very foundation thereof , confesse and grant , as ye are loath to do , which yet is no more then the truth , viz. that if the points be but novel your ( professedly ) uncorrupt copies are not a little corrupted and different from what the first originals were , throw the failings of transcribers , and so , failing in your ( falsly so called ) foundation , must be forced to begin again , and lay the true one with the quakers , which is that of christ himself , the light , which rather then do , since you have so much persecuted and disowned them , ye will rake your brains to the bottom to find something to say against the truth , which is so tedious ; this is the grand cause and whole profound mystery of this businesse of thy busie busling and brawling so much for the necessity of the points being owned , as of so high an original , which else there 's no necessity at all of owning either at all as of such importance as thou pleadest , or any otherwise then as the meer handi-work of man. having therefore given this taste of the fallibility of thy flashy shallow shufflings off what is more warrantably and weightily urged against the pretended antiquity of the hebrew punctation as coavous with the scripture and connatural with that language , i shall here glean up some other scambling sayings of thine about the points , from several quarters of thy book , worth heeding upon no other account then the crudity , absurdity , and ridiculousnesse of them , and make some miscellany replies to , and notes upon them , that i may rid my hands as fast as i can of that rusty stuffe and mouldy matter , now i am upon it , wholly , and not have occasion to handle it much more in other places . i. o. thou sayest , pag. . that it is not thy design to give in arguments for the divine original of the present hebrew punctation , neither dost thou judge it necessary so to do , while buxtorf about that lyes unanswered . reply . then ( i say ) thou hast hung thy reader up in the air , and there left him among gapes and stares ; for pag. . thou pretendest to plead and undertake to vindicate the letter to be as t was given out , and handed to us without alteration , which put me into an expectation of something of that nature , but parturiunt montes , &c. a long-tays'd-tale runs out of a great mountain of talk for many pages together , to prove the wickednesse of the massorites , on whom the points are fathered , which is all of it ( as thou confessest of some part of it , nothing at all to thy purpose , pag. . ) but neither one tittle of so much as a topical argument to clear the businesse , nor a nomination of one out of buxtorf : but nil dat quod in se non babet , hadst thou had any to produce , it had been more useful then all thy babling , to evidence the inalterablnesse of the bible , which was thy businesse to prove , and is so necessary that none but fools will by thy floud of words be flim-flam'd into thy faith , without such arguments to evince the truth on 't in that point , which thou are never able to urge in proof of it : howbeit two considerations thou addest at the end of that chapter of thy second treatise , wherein thou treatest of this point of the hebrew points , as of weight to thee [ to add weight to all that light , scanty-measured matter , that went before ] propounded in such an indigested , mangled , hampered , tediously tangled manner , that he must be wiser then i , that can well tell what to make of them , or find in them so much as top or bottom , or plain premises , or clear consequence , or any kind of conclusion at all save that they are the conclusion of that chapter ; so that though there 's a talk in them of grammar and rules of art , and the world of points not coming together by chance , and of the chaldee peraphrast , and many more matters , yet they seem to me to be a couple of confused chaosses , that came to passe more by chance then by any rules of art , and a world created by a casual concurrence of antick attomes , more then any wisdom of either god or man consisting of the circumference of no lesse then wel-nigh pages together ; i shall therefore , rather then puzzle my self in prying too much into such an orderlesse , boundlesse piece of prate as that is , keep what i know of it within my own bowels , and not send out an answer to i know not what , and to that which ends i know not where , and runs i know not whither , taking the councel of the poet , who said , ne immittas pecus tuum in pratum ubi non est sepes : i. o. thou sayest , epist. pag. , . that thou darest not mention the desperate consequences of that opinion concerning the novelty of the hebrew punctation , being affrighted among other things , by a little treatise lately sent thee , wherein the author who-ever he is , from some principles of this nature , and unwary expressions of some learned men among you , labours to eject and cast out , as use'esse , the who e scripture , or word of god. reply . which scripture , say i , had it never been , nor were it more to be ( as it must moulder once , though , as i told thee above , i am free it should stand its time , for such service , as to cast out such men , as useless , that have cast off the light and spirit ) yet is the word of god as useful still as 't was before , and ever will be ; being that by which all is upheld for ever , when the scripture , that yet testifies of it , shall moulder and come to nought , as thy scribling scripture , that testifies to that more holy scripture shall do ; and as for thy frights i cannot blame thee for crying out , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when thou seest thy foundation sink , and fail , and crack under thee , which is but a fallible letter , a sandy seat , a brittle bottom ; but such as stand on the rock of ages , which the scripture witnesses to , will stand in the approaching storms , wherein thou and all thine will fall , mat. . and some see the end of that , thou knowest not the mystery of . i. o. that had that leprosie or opinion about corruption of scripture , undermining the authority of the hebrew verity , kept it self within that house ( i.e. ) the synagogue of rome , which is throwly infected , it had been of lesse importance , it is but a farther preparation of it for the fire , but it is now by the subtilty of satan crept in , and broke forth amongst protestants also , with what design , to what end and purpose thou knowest not , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the day will declare it , epist. pag. , , . reply . yea , and does declare it to many already , though ye that are of the night and darknesse , where nothing but errour and terrour is , see no truth , and are afraid of your own shadows , and in the guilt of your guilful gailed consciences and benighted minds , fear what it will grow to , and what mischiefs and inconveniencies will ensue on searching too critically , too neer into your own rule of scripture ; but though ye ●ommend ( as thou dost , epist. pag. . ) the knowledge of the tongues , and the use of that knowledge in critical observations , and that study and employmen● as unexpressibly , advantagious and helpful in explanations of sundry difficulties , yet feeling your own and your fellows mind ( measuring others each by himself ) to be exceedingly vain-glorious curious uncertain after a door of reputation and renown is once opened , as ready quickly to spread over all bounds and limits of sobriety ; ye are afrighted to think what will now come on it to have learned men exercise their critical abilities about the scripture , for fear they find your foundation faulty and fallible , and full of flawes , and so had rather believe it to be sound at a venture , seeing ye know no better to stand on , then to have it sounded , and found to be so unsound as it is , epist. pag. , . j. o. that it is not imaginable , what prejudice the sacred truth of the scripture . reply . the truth told in it , i tell thee , is the same for ever , and can't be changed let the scripture become what it will , and suffer the losse of its whole self . j. o. preserved by the infinite care and love of god , hath suffered already hereby . reply . and ( as if not enough ) thou teachest criticks and tellest wayes to make others criticks that never meant it , whereby instead of thy helping hand ( such is thy wisdom in the handling thy own businesse , like an ill bird that bewrayes his own nest ) to recover it , its likely to suffer more . j. o. what it may further suffer for thy part , thou canst not but tremble to think . reply . yet to be sure it suffers nere the lesse , but rather much more for thee ; and though thou art not more afraid then hurt , yet some are not afraid , nor hurt , who dwell higher then thou dost , whose place is the munition of rocks , who see the end of that which seems a terrible gulf and praecipice to thee , viz. that when theeves fall out , true men will come by their goode , and all things by their proper names and nature . i. o. thou sayest , epist. . that thou ca●●● not but tremble to think what would be the issue of such a supposition , that the points , vowels and accents are no better guides to us then may be expected from those who are pretended to be their authors , pag. . reply . therefore the best way is , to suppose nothing at all about them , it matters not much whence they come , there they now are ; and thy carking will not prove them to be of these men , or those , novel or antient ; and then all thy often tremblings about that toy will be taken away : neverthelesse , whether thou leave , or cleave to them , it s much at one to thee , tremble thou must at the true word of god when all is done first or last , what ere becomes of the scripture of it . i. o. that lay but these two principles together , namely , that the points are a late invention of the jewish rabbins ( on which account it ; confest there 's no reason we should be bound to them ) and that its lawful to gather toge●her various lections by the help of translations , thou must needs cry out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where shall i stand ? as not seeing any means of being delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all sacred truth , pag. . reply as if the light and spirit were lost , and all certainty lost if the letter be ; and all i o's . rich possession perish'd , if points fail : and yet what uncertainty soever ye come to thereby , certain enough ' us , that there are various lections , and of the two , for ought thou makest appear to the contrary , 't is more certain that the points were an innovation & invention , and not from the beginning of the writing , then otherwise ; and as certain 't is that i.o. himself , if he could see it , or would confesse what he confesses , doth little lesse then confesse it so to be , while he can say no more but that as he shall not oppose them who maintain them coaevous with the letters , which are not a few of the most learned jewes and christians ( against not a few learned jewes and christians by i. o's . confession ( viz ) elias levita , of whom he testifies , pag. . that he was the most learned grammarian of the jewes in his age , assistant to paulus fagius in his noble promotion of the hebrew tongue ; capellus , whom he calls a learned man and a protestant ; io. prideaux who is before i.o. luther the renownedst reformer in his time , as ever europe had ; zwinglius and others ) so he no way doubts but that as we enjoy them they were compleated no higher upwards then esdras his time , by the men of the great congregation , guided by the infallible direction of the spirit of god , which was after all the old testament was written , & a thousand years after some of it ; and so , pag. . . see also pag. . . where he sayes , the jewes generally believe the points as old as from moses on mount sinai , or at least ( quoth he ) from ezra ( so he is in doubts ) not denying but that they , as to their knowledge and use , received a great reviving by the massorites , and gemarists . i. o. that the word of god ( i.e. ) scripture hath been hitherto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as to its litteral sense , and reading , the acknowledged touchstone of all expositions ; render this now 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and what have we remaining firm and unshaken ? pag. . see more pag. . . of uncertainty . reply . the light , spirit , word it self , and the kingdom and things thereof , which cannot be shaken , but must remain when the worldly kingdom of worldly priests , and their foundation , and their rich possession of letter and hebrew points , and all their religion , faith , worship , house , bottom , and whole building and fabrick that stands thereon , and the old heaven and earth and all the works of man that are therein , and their writings , and tomes and talmuds , &c. ut alibi , and such like ( in which i o. is exercised in his second tale of a tub ) and sea and land , and all nations , formalists , and their forms , professors , and their professions , doctors in divinity , and their false dreames and divinations , and not only popes , cardinals , mount-seniors , monks , friars , iesuites , and all that rabble of rabbies , and deans , and chapters , arch-bishops , deacons , deans and their officials , parsons , vicars , curats , and all manner of spiritual persons of that spawn ; but also all sorts of those narrow mouth'd bottles , that have none of the new wine in them , and are as long in letting out , as in getting in what they have of their old wisdom , as well within vniversity liberties as without , and all masters , and prebends , and deans of colledges , and their christs churches , and all their beggarly elements must be on fire about their ears , and melt away with fervent heat , and be burnt up and shaken down , as leaves from the fig-tree , by the mighty wind of the lords spirit , that now blowes upon all flesh , that it withers , and is as the grasse and its flower , and utterly like a cottage , which after much reeling to and fro , must be removed for ever , and for ever . i.o. thou sayest , pag. . that thou hadst rather all the works like to the biblia polyglotta , which yet thou acknowledgest the great usefulnesse of , and art thankful ( owen ) for it , were out of the world , then that this one opinion of the novelty of the hebrew points , espoused to that great work , epist. pag. , , . should be received with the consequences that unavoidably attend it . reply . the consequences that unavoidably attend the receiving of truth are dangerous to thee , but of no other then good concernment to such as dwell not in the scriptural skirts & meer literal suburbs of it ( as thou dost , who being without the salvation it self , which god appoints to his for walls and bulwarks , startest at the newes of every storm and the shaking of every leaf ) but in the holy city , and in the substance of the truth it self : the cup of trembling must be taken out of their hands , and put into the hands of thee and thine , that have hated and afflicted them , and rid over them , and said , bow down thy back that we may go over , and they have laid their backs as the street for you , while in your wrath and fury you have passed over them . i. o. thou sayest , pag. . that by this conceit of the novelty of the hebrew punctation , the adversaries hope with abimilecks servants , to stop the the wells , or fountains , from whence ye should draw your souls refreshments . reply . poor souls , poor wells and fountains , poor refreshments , if ye go down no deeper then the letters to draw your water ; for they are but the broken cisterns which ye follow , & that with the totter'd buckets of your own brains , that hold not the water of life : the letter doth but declare of the fountain of living waters , which ye have forsaken , viz. god himself , christ , and the spirit , the fountain ( shut up and sealed to you yet indeed , cant. . . but ) set open to the house of david , and the inhabitants of jerusalem , for sin and uncleannesse , zach. . . the well of salvation , out of which they that inhabit sion , in the midst of whom the holy one of israel is now great , do with joy draw water , out of whose bellyes flow rivers of living waters , which 't is out of the reach , and past the strength of the philistims to stop any longer , for there 's now rehoboth , or room , yea , the water thence given , whilst your euphrates is drying up , is as a well of water springing up in them to eternal life . i.o. that give this liberty to the audacious curiosity of men priding themselves in their critical abilities , and we shall quickly find out what woful state and condition the truth of the scripture will be brought unto ; and if hundreds of words were ( as 't is said by capellins ) the critical conjectures of the jewes , what security have we of the mind of god , as truly represented to us ? seeing that its supposed , that some of the words in the margent were sometimes in the line ; and if it he supposed as 't is , that there are innumerabl● other places of the like nature standing in need of amendments , what a door would be opened unto curious pragratical wits to overturn all the certainty of the truth of the scripture , every one may see , pag. . reply . every one may see therefore what certainty and security ye are in while ye stand on no bottom but a broken letter : and how wilt thou help the case with all thy prate , or hinder pragmatical wits from using their critical abilities that way ? who shall ponere obicem , put a stop to them , and impose upon all others his thoughts , that things are so or so ? shall i.o. who in so many places confesses he gives men but his thoughts ? nay , doth nos i.o. confesse , pag. , . that none must give a rule to the rest ? the door is open'd man , and thou canst not shut it , even an effectual door for the sheep to enter the fold by , even him , who is the light as well as the door , opened , whereby to see into the uncertainty of your torter'd transcripts , much more , ten fold more totterred and untrue translations , much more , twenty fold more to and fro expositions , so that though truth is where it was before the letter was among them that love it , and security and certainty no where but there , where it is only , and ever was and will be ( viz. ) in the light , and spirit , and among the livers there , but not among the talkers of it , that are livers and walkers after the fl●sh . i o. thou sayest , pag. . that let the points be taken out of the way , and let men lay aside that advantage they have from them , and it will quickly appear what devious wayes all sorts of such persons will run , scarce a chapter or a verse it may be , or a word , nor a line would be left free from perplexing contradicting conjectures , the words being altogether innumerable whose significations may be varied by an arbitrary supplying of the points ( for who shall give a rule to the rest ? ) what end of fruitlesse contests , what various and pernicious senses to contend about ? yea , to expect agreement is fond and foolish , and this gives but an humane fallible perswasion that the readings fixt on by each is according to the mind of god : besides , who shall secure us against the luxurant spirits of these dayes , who are bold on all advantages , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to break in upon every thing that 's holy and sacred , that they will not by their huckstering utterly corrupt the word of god ? ( i.e. ) scripture : how easie is it to see the dangerous consequents of contending for various lections ? reply . is your word of god possible to be utterly corrupted ? ours is not ; is your foundation , rule , &c. so rotten , such a nose of wax ? how easie is it then to sore-see that it must melt afore the fire of the spirit ? and of what dangerous consequence is it for you to stand on no surer ground , then that which is so easie to be changed ? for does thy perplexing prate make it the lesse alterable , or free it from mens perplexing contradicting conjectures , while thou objects but thy conjectures to theirs , none of which must rule the roast , or be a rule to the rest ? and doth your interpretation , which is variable both rerum and verborum , were your transcripts never so steady , give any more then meer fallible perswasion that your readings and sense , which is all the people have , is right ? ah poor men , who labour in the fire , and weary your selves for very vanity in screel-scrawls about your scripture , while by the spirit the earth is filling with the knowledge of gods glory , without such absolute necessity of the letter , as the waters cover the sea. i. o. thou sayest , pag. . that the points are of importance to the right understanding of the word of god. reply . ah poor people , as well as poor priests too , if it be so , not one among a thousand of the one , nor one among twenty of the other , being capable to read hebrew either with pricks or without ; i trow , which way must these come to the understanding of gods word ? from the rabbies mouths , or gods own ? for my part i am far from believing such necessity of points to understand scripture by ( seeing 'tis , as to the substantials of saving truth , rendered pretty well into plain english , that poor ●eople that with honest hearts read it , may see how to be honest ) much more to understand the word of god it self , which is not the scripture , which yet i. o. intends by that term of the word : but on that which is uttered in every heart from his own mouth , out of which wisdom it self sayes , prov. . there comes knowledge , wisdom , and vnderstanding , there shall i wait with thousands more that are there waiting , and no● upon the dreaming doctors , while they divine out their meer dreams , thoughts , and opinions about their po●nts and puncta●ions ; besides , riddle me this i.o. if thou canst , whether the scripture were never rightly read , nor understood by holy men , that did read it in the spirit without points before ezraes dayes ? from which only thou traducest thine own orignal of the points , which thou makest of such importance to a right understanding of the scriptures . i.o. thou sayest , pag. . that to be driven out of such a rich possession as the hebrew punctation upon meer conjectures and surmises , thou canst not willingly give way nor consent . reply poor man ! is that thy rich possession , that so much benefit comes by as thou sayest , pag. ? the chiefest treasure the church of god hath for many years enjoyed ? as thou sayest , pag. . the inheritance which ( even every tittle and letter of which , as thou sayest , pag. . ) many millions have looked on , as theirs , with such high account , that for the whole wor●d ●ther would not be deprived of it ? do the riches , the ornaments , the excellencies , the enjoyments , which thou art so extraordinarily afraid to be kobbed , spoyled , plundered , driven out , deprived of , that your consolation seems so much to consist in , that who so does , not so much as totally bereave you of , or nullifie , but only under-value , so as barely to novellifie and deny the antiquity and necessity thereof , does no lesse then utterly stop the very wells and fountains from whence ye should draw all your souls refreshment , as thou sayest , pag. . do they , i say , stand in such counters and pins , & pins heads , & points , & point tags , & childish toyes and trash as these ? indeed , when i was a chi●d . i did as a child , thought as a child , spake as a child , understood as a child ; but when i became a man , i put away these childish things ; which yet university doctors are very deeply doting on to this day : like boyes , that ly brawling about bawbles , which they prize above , and will not part with for far more serious & precious matters ; blessing themselves more in a bag of cherry-stones , and fearing more to lose , & caring to keep them , then wise men do theirs , whose riches lyes in that which can't be lost ; so doth i.o. busie himself with fear and much trembling about these perishing points , vowels , accents , about his cametz's and patack's , tsere's and segols , chiricks and cholems , sheva's and sciurech's , athnach's , kibbutz's and cametz catuph's , hoping he is rich and encreased with goods , and hath need of nothing while he enjoyes them , thinking within himself , — populus me sibilet at mihi plaudo , ipse domi simulac numinos contemplor in arcâ ; not knowing , that for all this , being out of , and against the true light , he is poor , and wretched , and miserable , and blind , and naked ; whose poverty i pitty more , then i prize such uncertain riches , of which i may say as the poet ; formidare malos fures , incendia , servos , ne se compilent fugientes , hoc iuvat ? horum semper ego optârim pauterrimus esse bonorum . howbeit i.o. possession being eleven points of the twelve , that thou wilt not part with it willingly i cannot much blame thee , considering how 't is with thee upon thy principles ; 't is a rich possession indeed in one sense , as poor as 't is in another ; for by that , and your ( as costly , as cloudy ) interpretations of the letter , which thou sayest fails , if that be not upheld in an antiquity as antient as the letter , ye have your wealth , making a trade out of it ; yea , your whole kingdom of heaven here on earth , and yo●r dominion , dignity , glory and authority , and all ye are worth stands upon these ticklish points , so that take them away , and ( in thy conceit at least ) ye know not whither ye sink , down ye drop , and must be fain to go a begging to the quakers , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? tell me where i shall stand ; give us of your oyl , for our lamps are gone ●ut ; let your light and sun shine on us , for our candle is gone out in obscure darknesse , we have wearied our selves in the greatnesse of our way , in the multitude o● our thoughts , in the infinitenesse of our imaginations , to hold up our forms , and professions , and faith , and christian religion , and righteousnesse , and life , and all by the letter , counting your lives madnesse , and your end without honour , that talk of a light within , but now we see 't is we were the fools , and blind , and the mad-men , and the poor and deluded ones , and deluders of each other , and of other people as well as our selves , who have hung all their faith upon our fancies about the letter , upon ou● high conceits about our copies and transcripts , which we deemed infallibly to be the infallible word of god , when all translations ( which is all they have , that know not g●eek and hebrew , to trust to , unlesse they take our words ) are untrusty and untrue , and a nose of wax , which men have made to stand which way they pleased , and no stable , stedfast , firm foundation ; and the light of the true righteousnesse hath not risen upon us . i. o. thou sayest , pag . that thou canst not but tremble to think what would be the issue of this supposition , that the points , vowels , and accents , are no better guides unto you , then may be expected from those , who are pre●ended to be their authors . reply . i t●ought ye had not been quakers , but against trembling and quaking , because ye jeer at it so in the quakers , who professe and pretend to trembling at nothing but at the word of god it self ; but i see ye are trembling at smaller matters out of the sense of the losse of toyes and trifles ; now the day of iacobs trouble & trembling begins to passe over , and he to be saved out of it , trembling it seems begins to take hold on the house of esau , who must assuredly come into it in his stead ; and that with a witnesse , and to some purpose , when they who yet stop the ear shall hear the word of god , who is the strength and salvation of his people , roaring out of zion , and as a lyon uttering his voice from ierusa●em to the shaking of the heavens and the earth , and not be able to flee out of the reach or sound of the terrible roaring thereof . . do you expect such eminent guidance as ye here seem to do from these pidling pricks and points into the kingdom of god , and salvation , so that the terrours of hell take hold on you at the very time and thought of the losse of no more , then that meer imagined antiquity and pretended divine original of them from mount sinai , that some fillily ascribe unto them ? suppose ye could prove them to be derived from mount sinai ( which is that , where there were quakings , and tremblings , & blackness , and darkness , and tempest ) will they lead , guide , and conduct you from condemnation to the safety , rest , refreshment , and consolations of them that are come to dwell on mount sion ? ah miserably bem●ped men , and benighted ministers ! it grieves me to see how poor people wait upon you for guidance , who are groaping up and down for the wall your selves , like such as have no eyes , after such small apices and scintillula's , indiscernable , and incomprehensible attomes as these , which are of such infinite variety , vanity , and uncertainty , that 't is as profitable , capere muscas , to catch flyes , and sit and peel strawes , as to spend time to find out either their authors , or differences , or services , or vses . for so verily are the hebrew accents , as uselesse as numberlesse in their offices ; insomuch that the learned christian ravis of berlin , professor of the oriental languages , doth in his grammar not only utterly deny them ( as others do ) to be coaevou● with the consonants , or to be written by moses , but also not to be so ill handled by the authors , who ere they were , as to cast so many unnecessary , idle , unreasonable , superfluous , useless fancies upon them , as our doters on them do now a dayes . i confesse ( quoth he ) we cannot set down the time , place , method , authors , & crooked knots , punctually , which were never set down ; but 't is as old to have bibles without points , as with them . they are not the same in hebrew , samaritan , chaldee , syriack , arabi● aethiopick . the graecians at first were content with a , e , o , for vowels . persians , turks , tartars , mogul great and little , and malay , could be content to this day without pricks instead of vowels . what think you then ( quoth he ) was there a curse of god upon the jewes and all the prophets , that they nor could nor would understand the writings one of another , without so many superfluities ? and what a malediction will you cast ( quoth he ) upon gods word , that when many hundreds can understand ( and that without any haesitation at all ) thousands of other books without these p●icks , they should not be able to understand gods book , without such ado ? if that infinity of pricking and stroking every line and letter , were in the bible , were it not the greatest injury that could be done to it , to have it once printed without them ? how would the jewes dare to offer such sacriledge so vnexpressible ? must the jewes find out an easier way then god himself , to leave out pricks ? what an absurdity is in all the accents , not one excepted ? athnack stands in an hundred places as a boy or servant ? truly i pitty ( quoth he ) all those great men that are become boyes and children , playing thus for the vowels , accents , and diacritical notes , that they write whole books about fancies and childish-stuff , given over to reprobate minds , and without the b●essing of god. the pricks added to the consonants are various , according to the fancies of the inventors in various countries of the orient ; in hebrew , chaldee , arabick and aethiopick are there naturally none , because superfluous . the strokes and pricks are not of the essence of this tongue , therefore only in the bible , and are set to the bible without necessity . only i wish'd that the vowels and sheva's ( quoth he ) had no greater credit then the accents have , which by the most learned in europe for almost years , were still left out , and not cared for , even by them that translated the hebrew bible ; nor can i well blame them , as if they had mightily mistaken in the translation , because of the ignorance of these accents , as if only by their order the true connexion and distinction of senses could be had . therefore let no english man ( quoth he ) think he hath not learned the hebrew tongue * if he know not these accents , and the infinity of work in them , but rather with me pitty the pains of those painful germans and scots upon such rotten principles , and learn hereafter of them , to labour upon a sure ground , or to think that god hath laid a curse upon his labour , sysiphi saxum , a stone that will give him an endlesse and unprofitable work ; and i wish this painful man , and buxtorf , and all those that are so busie about the pricks ( and will not believe that excellently and exceedingly learned author capellus , french professor at lamar in his arcanum punctorum revelatum , printed in the oriental printing-house , his own at leyden , . ) that they may bestow their pains upon ●etter work then about these trifl●s of the points , and the samaritick letters , if they or those wherewith the bible is now printed be the true old hebrew character , when as both are of the same essence , and one no more true then the other ; all that can be said for accents , is that one accent may do the businesse ▪ lifting up the syllable where it is : they are unreasonably , and without sense , called grammatical and rhetorical , for rhetorick speaks not of accents . and much more from pag. . to pag. . alas poor souls , have ye no better guides then points , vowels , accents , no marvel ye have been no better then blind guides to the blind , who are no better guided your selves into the whole sacred truth , and secret councel of god , then by such dimunitive twinckling sparks as these , that ye have kindled , and compast your selves about with , and walk by the light of , which are so far from rendering other things discernable , that ye cannot yet distinctly discern either what or where they are your selves . do ye expe& infallible direction from such a will-with-a-wisp , or walking fire , that leads you into such brakes of contention , and bogs of vncertainty , that ye are fain to confesse ye know not well where ye are , but in a wood , in a way and businesse wherein all things are carried to and fro by utter uncerta●n conjectures , pag. . while ●e are beating your selves about after it , and beating one another about it ? i tremble to think what will become of you indeed , and what will be the issue of this supposition , that letters , and tittles , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that ye are tattling endlesly about , and points , and vowels , and accents , and such accidental attomes , as are not essential to the text , much lesse pertaining de esse to the holy truth , should be for guides . but , in general , this i know , that till ye come to the infallible spirit and light within that leads ( if your letter lye not ) into all truth such as follow it , whether they be such as have skill in your points vowels , and accents , yea or no ; ye may walk on in the light of your own fire , and the sparks that ye have kindled ; but this you must expect at last from the lords own hand to lye down in shaking , shame , and sorrow . one thing more i.o. and more remarkable then the rest of thy confused and pedling work about these points , is the flat contradicton that thou givest to thy self herein , as well as often in many more points , and that thy own sayings concerning them in some places give to what thou utterest of them in some other , which i shall here set before thee and the world , as it lyes in thy own words , that thou mayst see how rawly thou runnest forth in hast to render thy self ridiculous to all men by thy indigested doings , in which thou art justly left of the lord , to run in rounds , for thy malitious medlings against his people . pag . speaking against the asserted novelty of the hebrew points , vowels , and accents , thou writest thus , j. o. i shall manifest it is fit they should be all taken out of the way , if they have the original assigned to them by the prolegomena . reply . yet two leaves after ( viz. ) pag. . ( to go round again ) thou writest thus , grant the points to have the original pretended , yet they deserve all regard and are of singular use for the understanding of the scripture , so that it is not lawful to depart from them without urgent necessity . and yet ( to go round again ) pag : thou writest semi-diametrically oppositive , thu●f i must crave liberty to professe , that if i could be throwly convinced that the present punctation were the figment and invention of these men , i should labour to the utmost , to have it utterly taken away out of the bible , n●r should i in its present station make use of it any more : to have it placed in the bible , as so great a part of ( secundum te ) the word of god , is not tolerable . here 's a pretty triangular piece of work , two corners of which , square a squint with the third , in which i.o. dances the hay , up and down , in and out by himself alone , like three kites , in the clouds of confusion . chap. v. as to the matter of the scripture remaining entire to a tittle in the outward text of it as at first given out , what a fidling and pidling makest thou to prove and make it good ? what figures dost thou cast in thy fancy throw that part of thy second treatise , wherein thou treatest for it , for the defending of it , and to fence off that fault of falshood from falling upon that thy arch-assertion , having once over-shot thy self-so far , as in thy first treatise , as false as frequently to affirm it ; and yet when all 's done , after thy tedious tracings to and fro in thy wonted wood of uncertain talk , conjectural discourse , and in the toylsome thicker of thy own untrusty thinking ? , thou art fain to confesse enough to the confutation of thy self , and the contradicting of that thy position in the strictnesse thereof , wherein thou tooth and nail contendest for it , as no lesse then a very fundamental part of that faith , which was once delivered to the saints . but that i may not seem to wrong thee by representing thy arch-assertion in a stricter way , or by stretching or extending it , in my animadversions on it , beyond the exact measure of thy insert and meaning in it ( unless thou wil● have us to judge thee one that speakest one thing , and meanest another [ as t.d. sayes god do● ] which is as bad ) let the reader , together with my returns therto , take it in thy own terms , as it lies spread and sprinkled up & down in sundry expressions , sounding out ( in sum ) the same thing , as to thy purport in them , over many parts , and in many particular pages of thy two english tractacles . i.o. pag. . the whole word of god ( that is , secundum te still , the scripture , text , or writing of it ) in every letter and tittle , as given from him by inspiration , is preserved without corruption ( i.e. ) variety from the first original manuscripts in the copies we have . pag. . the whole script●re entire , as given out from god , without any losse , is preserved in the copies of the originals , in ●h●m all , we say , is every letter and tittle . pag. . t●e word ( i.e. ) scripture with thee still ( for thou denyest the words coming any other-way to your selves , or any now ) is come forth unto us from god , without the least mixture , or intervenience of any medium . obnoxious to fallibility , as is the wisdom , truth , integrity , knowledge , and memory of the best of all men . pag. . we have not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of mo ? es , and the prophets , the apostles and evangelists , but the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , we have , or co●i●s contain every iota that was in them . hebrae● volumina nec in unica dictione , corrupta intenies . s. pag. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , matth. . . to which answers that , pag. , . doth not our saviour affirm of the word that was among the jewes ( i.e. ) scripture ( secundum te still ) that not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of it should passe away or perish , where let the consonants themselves , with their apices , be intended , or alluded to in that expression , &c. and epist pag. . none are able to shew out of any copies yet extant in the world , and that they can make appear ever to have been extant , that ever there were any such various lections in the old testament . and pag. . neither the care o● god over his truth , nor the fidelity of the judaical church , will permit us to entertain the least suspition , that there was ever in the world any copy of the bible differing , in t●e least , from that we enjoy , or that those we have are corrupted . and pag. . let the authors of this insinuation , prove that there ever was in the world , any copy of the bible differing in any one word from those that we now enjoy , let them produce one testimony , ne author of c ? ed● j●w or christian , that can , or doth , or ever did , speak one word to this purp●se , let them direct us to any relick , any monument , any kind of remembrance of them , and it shall b of we●ght to us , &c. many more exceeding and extraordinary , high , strict streins thou deliverest thyself in , in other places about the non-corruption , non alteration of the text of scripture in one letter , tittle , iota , or syllable since the first giving it out , so , but that in the copies extant to this day , there 's an exact unity , and entire identity with the first originals ; a kind of summary , collection , and c●pitulation of which thou makest , pag. . speaking to this purpose thus , viz. i o. the sum of what i am pleading for , as to the particular head to be vindicated , is , that as the scriptures of the old and new testament were immediately and entirely given out by god himself , his mind being in them represented unto us without the least interveniency of such mediums , and wayes as were capable of giving change or alteration to the least iota or syllable ; so by his good and merciful providential dispensation in his love to his word and church , his whole word ( alias , the scripture with thee ) as at first given out by him , is preserved unto us entire in the original languages ; where shining in its own beauty and lustre ( as also in all translations , as far as they faithfully represent the originals ) it manifests and evidences unto the consciences of men without other forreign help or assistance , its divine original , and authority . reply . this is the capital , cardinal , general assertion , or position , which branches it sel● into several particulars , or petty propositions , viz. the immediate coming forth of the scripture from god to us ; its self evidencing power to evince it self , by it self alone , to be of god , and his word ; it s descending to us at this day entire to a tittle without corruption by alteration in the least letter , iota , vowel , point , or syllable ; its uncapablenesse of such change and alteration in its coming to us ( so are thy words here and pag. . ) to the least iota , or syllable . unto which general head , and its branches , the ramu●culi , lesser twigs , or little sentences scattered here and there throwout thy book , are reducible , and each to its own suitable branch respectively . that which i am here under consideration of thy pi●tiful plea for , is both its non-alteration ( de facto ) as it s handed down by transcribers from the fi●st scribes of it to us in these dayes , and its unalterablenesse , or uncapablenesse of alteration ( which ( if thou mean as thou sayest ) thou here assertest ) to the least iota or syllable . these are to thee ( as thou sayest ) such important truths , that thou shalt not be blamed in the least by thy own spirit , nor , thou hopest , by any others , in contending for them , judging them fundamental parts of the faith once ( but ( say i ) thou knowest not when ) delivered to the saints . reply . though i , who cannot hold thee , because i cannot find thee guiltlesse , in either thy hasty holding , or thy heedlesse , unhandy handling thy weak vindicatory piece of probation of them at so high a rate , do advise thee to praise a fair day at night , assuring thee , that if ever thou come to learn the truth in the plainnesse and power of it , as it is in iesus the light , of whom the letter testifies , thou wilt find these no fundamental parts of that one faith , which paul and iude speak of , eph. . iude ▪ which was one even of old from abraham , enoch , noah , and downwards from the beginning , before the letter was delivered to , and earnestly to be contended for by the saints ; and wilt find thy own spirit also , however it now seems not to blame thee in the least , blaming thee nor a little for thy ignorance in due time ; and howbeit ( being bolstered up for a while above it , by the aery academical applauses , gratulatory euge's , j o's . hic est's , and such like blessings of thy blind brother literatists , that are ( as the rich mans wealth to him , prov. . . ) thy strong city , thy murus abaeneus , a high brazen wall to thee in thy own conceit ) thou feel'st no check , and seemest nil conscire tibi , nullâ pallescere cultâ . yet let others , and thy own heart also clear , chear and cheat thee as it will , thou wilt once know , that as to every work there is a time to do it in , and a judgment after it ; so thy whole , lame , anti-scriptural work about the scriptures , as well as thy other part of it against the quakers , though fenced in the frontispice with the fair formal pretence of , a vindication of the purity and integrity of the hebrew and greek texts ; and , pro scripturis , and such like , must come to another account then that i am here taking of it before the world , even to a judgment from god within thy own now blinded bosome , and closed conscience , as the book thereof comes to be opened by the shining out of that light in it , that lyes yet smoothered ; and then thy misery will be so great upon thee , that ( as i told thee above ) what thou sayest of the pope for his misuse of scripture , will be verified not on him only , in so much the greater measure , by how much his vilislations and violations of it may be greater then thine , but in some measure also upon thy self ; so that as thou , together with me , sayst papae , so say i , et tibi tempus erit quo magno optaveris emptam , scripturam intactam . it will once repent thee not a little in thy own spirit , that ever thou appearedst in publick in such a proud and peevish prate against its purest friends so pretensively only , but not properly for , and so piteously and unpolishedly about the scriptures . now as to thy vindication or plea it self , for the present integrity , and indentity of the text of your copies , with those original copies that were first given out , which thou positively hadst before asserted , thou failest and fallest short , so in thy confidence of what thou hadst so peremptorily propounded for truth , in ipso limine , at the very threshold and entrance thereinto , as to stile it no other then an account of thy apprehensions , a delivery of thy thoughts , and a runing the hazard of giving out thy thoughts , and of what thy own thoughts suggested to thee , pag. , , . and a discovery of thy thoughts , . as also thy first treatise , wherein thou talkst of the samenesse of the letter in every tittle and iota to what it was at first so authoritatively , so positively , so impositively , so seemingly infallibly and uncontroulably ; a publication of thy thoughts ( though i had thought a minister of christ , or doctor in that thing cal'd divinity , especially about the foundation of all his faith , and in that chapter where he layes the basis of his businesse , and of h●s building , should have b● thought himself better before-hand and have sa●e down and counted his cost , and cast it in his mind before he printed his propositions out in such peremptory terms , as thou dost in this case of non-alteration of one jot or tittle of the first divinely inspired scripture , pag. , , whether it would hold it out in such a height for certain or no , without parching it up with [ so i think ] and such loose conjectures , and imagina●ions , as are attended with such great uncertainty , that himself confesses ( as thou dost , pag. . ) they ought not to be admitted to any plea or place , one way or other , in so w●ighty a cause ; and propound things that are false , as boldly , as undoubted truths , and then pu●s off such as expect hi● p●oof , with weak conjectures , and his conceits ; ●e●t men mock him saying , this man began to build , but was not able to finish . yet now i bethink my self , thou pretendest to be no divinely inspired prophet , nor one that owns any such to be now a dayes , but one of those other men thou speakest of . pag. . the pigment and imagination of whose hearts are the fountain of all that they speak , and so no better can be expected from them . . thou grantest that ye have not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , pag. nay . it is granted ( sayest thou , pag. . ) that the individual 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of moses , the prophets , and the apostles are in all probability , and as to all that we know utterly perished and lost out of the world ; as also the copies of ezra , the reports mentioned by some to the contrary are open fictions ; the individual ink and parchment , the ro●es or books that they wrote , could not without a miracle have been preserved from mouldring into dust before this time ; nor doth it seem improbable that god was willing by their losse , to reduce us to a neerer consideration of his care and providence in the preservation of every tittle contained in them ; had those individual writings been preserved , men would have been ready to adore them , as the jewes do their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in their synagogues . reply . how like a child dost thou talk in that groundlesse guesse of thine that god was willing to let the losse of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be , for such an end , as in thy foolish vain mind thou imaginest and fondly fanciest ! what a bawbling and blerting dost thou make of thy boyish bolts out of the cross bow of thy crooked conceit , both here and else-where up and down thy book ? who told thee that trifling tale , which thou tellest for probable truth , that god let all the first writings be lost for this end , to reduce men in the latter ages to a neerer consideration of his care in preserving every tittle till now that was contained in them ? when yet we know ( as i told thee above ) and prove by and from that little of the first scripture that hath happened to come to our hands ( which ten parts to one of the world never saw neither ) that not tittles only , but many whole books of the first divinely inspired scripture , that belonged to the bulk of holy mens writings by the spirit , are not preserved , but perished , for ought thou knowest , both the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of them also : did god himself tell thee this to tell for tsruth , or did the serpent suggest it to thy thoughts , that suggests a legion more o● the like lying vanities ? even he surely insinuated this into thy imagination , that crowded those other crude conceptions and conjectures , which thou hast , and holdest out to such tom of bediams , as will take them for truth from thee . so in pag. , , . where perking up into gods privy councel , as if thou wer't one that fate in his bosom from which thou art yet as far ( being from the light ) as the rich g●utton was from abrahams , where poor lazarus sa●e , whom he dispised ( saving that the gulf was fix't against his passage , whereas there 's hope concerning thy coming thither , if yet in time thou tern and take hold on truth ) and intruding thy se●f into what thou hast not seen , vainly puf● up in thy fleshly mind , thou proudly falst a pratin● 〈◊〉 propounding , for truth , what swims and floats in the cock-boat of thy fancy , ( viz ) pag. ● . that the writing was the product of gods eternal councel for the preservation of the doctrine after a sufficient discovery of the insuffiency of all other means for that end and purpose . reply . into which piece of gods eternal councel , i trow who , or what spirit , or scripture , or key of any kind , did ever let in i. o. who proposes it so peremptorily in his preachings ; as if god had discovered something by experience , after a while , that he was not so well acquainted with before , namely , that manifesting his mind by dreams , visions , voices , word of mouth , was , after his tryal thereof , sufficiently ●ound by the lord to be an insufficient means to save his word from loosing , which means he intended once to that end and purpose ( howbeit sometimes again i o tells us ( truly enough ) that what ever means god appoints to any end , it is sufficient thereunto , and thereupon not imperfect , but perfect * ) and so fearing , belike , to loose his word and doctrine , and not knowing any other way ( all others failing save that of pen and inke ) in his providence , betook himself to that way of writing , which providence also saw it self concerned to this day , to preserve entire copies to a tittle of all that writing ( much of which yet is lost ) both to reduce men to a consideration of it self , in that one particular ; and also that his word ( not a jot of which , i confesse , can ever fail , though all writing in the world come to perish ) might be secured for ever from perishing , and altering , by that most alterable and perishing way of writing ; which , if it should happen to be all lost , he had no way to save his word , doctrine , and sacred truth from dying irrecoverably , by a very dreadful and mortal distemper , pag. . so seems i.o. summarily to say out of the sacred secret of gods councel , which was never with any , save such as fear him more then i. o. does , whose position of it credat apella . so pag. . god by his providence , preserving the whole text entire , suffers lesser variety to fall out in or among the copies we have , for the quickning and exercising our diligence in our search into his word . reply . o nescio quo horrendo percusse sentomate ! whence came this whiffe and whimzy within the circumference of thy figmentitious fancy ? who told thee this toy , which thou preachest out for positive truth ? dost thou teach this for a true doctrine of christ , if so , from what text ? or wilt thou own it to be but a meer tale of thy own , a tradition of i.o. which it thou wilt , then own it , that in vain thou worshippest god , while thou art teaching for doctrine thy own thoughts , and the traditions of thy self , or any other men ; thou talkest sometime at such a rate as if thou wouldst make all the world believe the variety of our copies were absolutely none at all , no not in the leaft , not in one apex , tittle , iota , not in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which , how contradictory it is to , or consistent with that lesser variety here talk'd on , who is so silly ( save i. o. whos 's own silliness and self . confoundings are never seen by himself ) as not to see ? but to let passe that ordinary matter of self-contradiction ( sifh it s as common with thee almost as to talk at all ) and to take it as it falls . is this the end why god , who ( as thou sayest , who knowest not whether thou hast the half or no of what was by inspiration written ) preserved the whole entire , suffered that variety that is in your copies , to quicken your diligence in your search into his word ? if that be the end ( as indeed it may well enough be , of the total losse of so much of the letter as there is , and non-integrity , nor indentity of your transcript texts that remain ) that ye should diligently search into his word , it were happy for you that there 's so much variety and uncertainty as there is in your copies , and nere the worse , had you none of them at all , so ye would betake your selves to the hearing of the word of god , and the receiving it more immediately and purely from his mouth , which the letter of it tells you is nigh in your own hearts and mouths , ●o that ye need not go any where ad extra for it , that ye may both hear and do it : but alas poor men , by the word ye mean the letter still , the external text , or writing of it , and then so far is your so diligent searching and poring , and striving , and scribling one to another ( as the scribes of old did , iob. . that never heard the voice and word of god it self ) from being any end of god at all in giving it out at first , or in deriving that part of the scripture , ye have , down to you , whether fully the same with , or falsified from the first copies , that he loaths and detests your long tales about its tittles , and your idle treating away your pretious time in such trivial talk as this , that the whole word of god , and all saving doctrine , and sacred truth is lost , and fails for ever without ▪ relief , remedy , or recovery , if every tittle of the text without losse or variation be not upheld and preserved entire to this day : which yet is some ( not to say the sum ) of that unsound doctrine , the proof of which is driven on by thee i. o. as in pag. . . and many other pages is to be seen throwout thy book , as well as by other doctors and divines . so pag . speaking of the scriptures uncontroulably manifesting themselve so to be , that on pain of eternal damnation , men are to receive them as the word of god , thou sayst that they afford unto us all the divine evidence of themselves ( and that 's none at all , as i shall shew anon of their being his word ) which god is willing to grant us , or can be granted us , or is any way needful for us . reply . another odd conceited saying this is , as like thy self ( who ur●erest thy self doctor-like still , as to thy usurped authoritativenesse , but seldom as to the truth of thy assertions ) as if it were spit out of thy mouth : who told thee this vntruth that thou so uncontrollably utterest here for truth , that god is not willing to grant more divine evidence of the scriptures being what thou falsly sayest they are , or where they are indeed , and that more neither can or need be granted then what the scriptures themselves do afford ? sayest thou this of thy self , or did others tell it thee of the scripture ? of thy own head surely , or very likely at least , and neither from god nor the spirit , nor the scriptures , no nor the synods , nor the congregational churches of england to which thou belongest , nor the doctrinal catechismes of late divines ; for these thy brethren ( though erring with thee , in stiling them the word ) tell thee of another ( not humane onely ) but divine testimony or evidence , that may be and is needful to be granted , and that god is willing to and doth also grant of the scriptures being what they call it , beside that which thou here so absolutely assertest as the onely one that must or can be afforded , viz. the testimony of the spirit of god in the heart , and not that of the scripture alone concerning itself , or of the holy spirit speaking without us ad extra onely in the scripture , which is the dream wherein thou drawest aside not onely from the truth , but also ( if it were a truth that the letter is g●ds word ) from the joynt testimony of thy fellow testifiers to it , for they say the testimony of the spirit within us also , & not 〈◊〉 ●●stimony without u● , and onely in the scripture , divinely evidences the scripture to be what ye all falsly say it is , that is , the word of god : witnesse not only that so much esteemed divine in his dayes , viz. ball in his catechisme , but also the confession of faith of the assembly of divines presented to the parliament , and that of the congregationals , which is verbatim the same also therewith , who all unanimously in that article of the scripture , wherein they falsely affirm it to be the word of god , declare thus in the fifth head , viz. by the heavenlinesse of the matter , efficacy of doctrine , majesty of the stile , excellency and perfection of the whole , it doth abudantly evidence it self to be the word of god , yet notwithstanding our full perswasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof [ i.e. ] of the scripture , is from the inward work of the holy spirit , bearing witnesse by and with the word in our hearts . but thou in page . and thorowout thy fifth chapter of thy first treatise excludest the witnesse of the spirit immediately in the heart at all , or at least the usefulnesse , much more the necessity of any such testimony making as here page . the authority of god shining in it self alone , and exclusively of the spirits and words witnesse in our hearts , the sole medium of all that evidence which man can have of its being ( what ye call it ) viz. the word of god ; but as for god and the spirit , who within do give all the evidence that they give at all of the scriptures , being what in truth is is , viz a true writing of the truth , what if they are willing to grant an evidence within , and to afford more then thou talkst of ? wilt thou bind , limit and forbid them so to so , who 〈◊〉 unlimitedly here declarest that god is willing to afford and grant no more ? must not the spirit blow where it lifts without thy leave , or acquainting thee , first , who art no prophet , with what he will do ? and this may serve as a sufficient answer to thy vain opinion in it ( it being worth no better ) to that whole chapter of thine concerning the testimony of the spirit ; though whether it shall or no , so that i 'le say no more to thee about that chapter , is more then i le tell thee here , that i may be at liberty to do as i see occasion : only thus much is spoken to that saying of thine , above pag. . to shew how majestically still for the eternal truths of god , thou tellest thy own meer trashy , untrusty traditions ; of which sort , i say , is that above , p. which i am yet in hand with ( viz. ) that god probably suffered the losse of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to reduce us to a consideration of his care in preserving every tittle , that was in them , to this day in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or copies we have . but i o. seems to take another reason out of the bottomlesse pit of his own infinite fancy and imagination , why god was as willing to let the first manuscripts perish , as careful to preserve every apex thereof , in their adored transcripts , and successively crowned and canonized copies to this day ( viz. ) left if the immediate individual writings had been preserved , men would have been ready to adore them , as the jewes to adore their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in their synagogues . reply which if it be cogent or have any reason at all in it to prove a willingnesse in god to let the first writings be left , hath it not as much to the full to evince god ; regardlesnesse of your so copiously regarded copies , upon ( if there were no other ) the very self-same account , as he was so carelesse of the other ? but i. o. is so totally talpified , that ( as eagle-eyed as he is abroad to spie a hole in the iewes coat ) he can't see that iewish idolatry neerer home ? for if god , to prevent adoration of that brazen serpent , and idolized 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the scripture , was so regardlesse of it , as to permit it to perish and be brought to nothing , is there not as much reason why he should be as carelesse of your remote , tottered transcripts , and false translations ye are so carkingly careful of , as to let what will become of them , notwithstanding your uncessant pining and whining , and whoring after them , and solicitous scoldings and tearings one of another so much about them ? for as much as though ye confesse ye have but the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , yet so it is , that ye adore , and even idolize them as much as ye would , or likely could the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 themselves , had you them to bustle and busie your minds about , and as much as the iewes ( though ye advance them the right way no more then they do theirs , as i have told you at large above ) do their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in their synagogues . suppose ye had here the very hand writings of moses , and the old prophets , and the individual letters , and stories that the evangelists and apostles pen'd with their own hands ; yea the very two tables of stone , superscribed with gods own finger ( which was a figure and type of that hand-writing of his law in the fleshly tables of your hearts by his living spirit , the truth , and anti-type , of which ye as little heed , as ye heedlesly over-value the other ) what could you ministers of the letter , and not the spirit , and your literal and formal , more then powerful and truly spiritual professours say or do more ( unlesse you would down on your knees to them so soon as ever ye see them ) in way of outward honour and adoration thereof , then ye do to your falsified transcripts , and your people to the more unspeakably false translations , which they take for truth , but by tradition and meer implicite faith from your selves ? le ts reason and reckon with you here a little while about your transcripts and translations , which are all that are extant and enjoyed at this day ; the first by you that have skill in hebrew and greek ; the second by your independent [ on god ] but ( on their priests lips ) dependent people ; as for the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . memorandum ( oh all people , by whom these presents shall ever happen to be read ) i. o. hath quite quitted the world of them , confessing they are all utterly perished , and long since past away and lost ; so that 't is opon fiction , or miracu●ous with him for any one to affirm , that there 's any one individual role , writing , or book that was pen'd by the holy men , that in their several successive ages , wrote the scripture now alive , and not mouldred into dust : so that the world hath done with them , and they with us , so as never to come within our ocular inspection more , whereby to try whether our doctors and divines adored transcripts do to a little agree ( as i. o. absolutely affirms they do ) with the touchstone , yea or nay , so as to believe our own eyes , or any otherwise then as i o. ( who first positively asserts it ) doth after as improbly conclude it from what is suggested to his own thoughts from hear-say , and other mens talk to and fro , and tradition , and ( as he confesses all along ) ● heap of vncertainties , and conjectures ; so that all the tumblings and tossings , snapings and snarlings of even the protestant divines about their scriptmre , is but about their remote [ transcribed , i cannot say well neither , for most transcribed copies too are out of the way since printing came up , but ] printed copies of the text , which are all not more lyable in any thing to be , then in many things they are already falsified , which since the primitive copies are concluded to be gone , and the infallible guidance of the spirit , by i. o. t. d. and all divines excluded out of the world also , though they tell us translations must be rectified by their transcriptions , yet if they happen to be ( as an hundred to one they are , and none knows in how many ) in any things crooked or various from the first , there 's no means of rectifying or reducing their supposed rule to conformity to the first literal rule , nor of amending it , any otherwise then uncertainly , for ever . but suppose , i say , ye had the primitive copies , could you make more ado in adoring them , then ye doctors , and your people that dote on you , do about your various respective transcripts , and more various translations out of them into sundry tongues and languages , which translations yet are all in somethings not more several in their sorts , then the tongues into wch they are translated , and divided into as many senses , as the many men that translated them thereinto ; which said numerous untrue translations also are , as to the letter [ if they look not to the light within , and live not by that ] all that the poor blindly guided , mis-led , priest-befoolled people , who ken not hebrew and greek [ many of whom can't read english neither ] have to trust to , whose faith about the scripture it self , which thou callst , pag. . the foundation of that faith and obedience god requireth at their hands , and whose belief of the truth or untruth of this or that translation , is as much pin'd upon the priests sleeve here in england still , as it is at rome it self , in this and some other matters ; for there they believe as their church [ alias ] clergy believes , and take things on trust being not suffered , if they were able [ as here , though suffered , they are not able ] to try the truth hereof , and by meer tradition from their illiterate purblind priesthood ; and no otherwise do they here , as to their tratsl●tions , then upon tra●i●ion , ●rusting to the fidelity and to that infalible certaines of their supposed learned leaders the ser●●es , then whom no men are more humpered in a heap 〈◊〉 uncertainties about the scriptures what would ye do more to the very writing , that was inscribed with gods own finger , if you had it , in way of homage then ye are doing to your respective doted on , derived copies ? do you not dance about them as israel about their calf , saying these are thy gods o england , that brought thee out of bondage to thy sin , ( to which yet they committing it they remain servants to this day , iob. ) and must save thee and lead thee into life , and are perfectly sufficient without the light and spirit within , the quakers talk of , as that which the letter came from , and alone can do it , to instruct thee in the knowledge and worship of god , and thy obtaining of everlasting redemption ? do you not canonize and crown them with the titles of the only perfect rule , foundation , light , witnesse , living word of god , the lydius lapis , unaltered , unalterable standard , touchstone immediately come forth from god to us , without the least interueniency of wayes , or mediums obnoxious to fallibility , or capable to giue change to the least ●ota or syllable ? are not these as high titles as ye could give to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if they were here ? do you not say , and do this , and much more to your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? and the people to no more then their meer translation ? yea , do the iewes say or do more in way of adoration to their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in their synagogues , then beautifie , adore , guild , lift up in their hands , ex●al them with high applauses , hugge and kisse them , as ye do when ye swear upon a book , and such like outward magnifyings and makings honourable of them , which is the utmost that i have seen them do in their synagogues throw many nations , without living that substantial holy life the letter calls for ? and do you do any lesse , as to outward adoration , or any more , as to inward and real observation , towards your bibles ? yea , do ye not all , as well the people that have no better then their uncertain , yet certainly untrue translations from you , as so many of you of the clergy , as can read the copies of the originals ( for many cannot read the hebrew text at all , and some the greek as ●etle as that , as necessary as these tongues were made a while since to the very esse , or being of christs ministers ) who have no better ●hen your uncertain transcriptions , cry up your several transcribed and translated copies respectively that best like you , and every one hugge his own at least , as most insallible , however crying down others as corrupted ▪ and how beit if any one of them were so , as none of them at all are , yet all of them can't be right , as each one faith that is , that he takes to● are ye not all noysing it out as the iewes at ●e●usa●em , and the gentiles at ephesus , jer. . act. . of their respective broken reeds the temple and diana , to which they trusted , great is diana the temple of the lord , the word of god , the word of god inspired , the insallible word o● god are these , the perfect living , li●e giving soul saving word , the very power of g●d unto salvation ? are the iewes more mad upon their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the● people are upon their untruly translated , and you divines upon your untruly transcribed , and both on the more kreanously yet trans-printed sculptures ? talking and treating up your respective texts into the throne , where christ the light , and living word alone should sit , making little lesse of your copies , then some 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( or cornu-còpia ) deo forsan quapiam melius ? for what are all the ephesian like glamours , eager out-cryes , loud noises of the people here for against the quakers ? are they not for the bare bulk of that book called the bible , the out-side of which they are at great care and cost to paint , and guild , and bind , and beautifie , and adorn , and adore , while the truth exhibited in the writing or text thereof lyes trampled under their feet ? saying , the ru●e , the foundation , the infallible standard , the word of god , of no more then their ( by the self con●essed in many things ) corrupted translations ; counting the quakers not fit to live in the land , any otherwise then out-law'd , because they can't own , nor hold their i●o in that height of honour as they do , . nor fall down and worship that golden corruptible image , that they set up , though they honour the truth that 's told in the scripture , and submit to it as the euerlasting powerful word of god ? what are thy high english transcendant treatises about , and thy exceeding ample apologetical latine exercitations , and thy many execrations , anathcmaes thundred out , and subpoenaes , pag . . . . . . sent abroad in those and sundry other pages of thy paper , summoning and requiring all men , as from god to the subjection and submission of soul to the scriptures , which is due only and alone to the word of god , on peril , pain , and penalty of inexcusablnesse , in damnable unbelief , damnation , eternal damnation , eternal displeasure of god , eternal ruine , &c. in case it be not own'd as so ? what are all thy excessiue commendations , and direful comminations , and condemnations denounced by thee against all that commend it not , so ignorantly as thy self , and thy many needlesle negotiations , and pitiful proofs , and pragmatical pratings , and prehemine●t pleas for its reception in comparison with , and opposition to all other wayes of coming to the knowledge of god , and attendance and submission to its supream uncontroleable authority , pag . upon the account of its 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or divine inspiration , as being the most perfect rule , firm foundation , staple standard , infallibly true tou●hstone , entirely in every tittle to the least 〈◊〉 , the word of the great god , the writing that comes immediatly from god to us ( who live to many 〈◊〉 , after the mouldring of the first manuscripts of it ) without the le●st interveniency of any medium obnoxious to fallibility , or capable to give change to the least sota or syllable of it , pag . the book which god wrote , or at least immediately indited , and commends men ( it thou could tell where ) to receive , as his , under the penalty of his eternal displeasure , which book makes a sufficient discovery of it self to be his , pag ● . reveals and ●clares and professes it self from the beginning to the ending ( that no where , 〈◊〉 i shall shew anon ) to be unquestionably the word of god , pag. . and avers it self in euery place ( and that every place with . himself is . place at all , if ex. . self be true , as will be seen anon ) to be the word of god , pag the most glorious light in the world above t'e sun dearer to god then all the world besides , and scores more of wonderful strict strains of talk in which thou stretchest the text and letter beyond its liue , and screwest the scripture within diana's shrine , till thou crack'st thy own credit with uttering ten times more then thou art ever able to stand under the tryal of , or any wise man is to understand . 〈◊〉 what is all this adoratory ado , thou makest , about ? is it not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , pag. . the writing ? and what writing ? is it not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 only , confessing that all the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is long since lost ? and if thou should spend so much time as to talk to this age of that , as the rule , foundation , touchstone , standard that is not now standing but fallen , and that , as the inalterable incorruptible word of god ( and yet whether the decalogue of gods own writing were not as incorruptible as thy cobled copies of it , let who will judge ) that is already altered , yea , corrupted wholly out of the world , thy folly would more fully shew it self ; is it not ( if not the totte●ed translations , which the people at least magniste , and make a god of , as much as thou of the other ) thy meer perigraphy , or rather typography that passes from under , not the pens of careful , faithful , infallible transcribers , but the presses of carelesse , fallible , falsifying , faithlesse printers , whose hands few pamphlets passe without need of an after errata sic corrigas ? thy meer typographically correctible corruptible copies of the text , are the common theame of all thy laudatory labours , and truthlesse treatises , and theses that are thrust out about them . as for all translations ( that i may not wrong thee , but give thee thy due ) thou givest them their due , i confesse , in some measure , so as to slate them a little lower then either the true word of god , or the first true immediate manuscripts of it either . yea , i must needs say that ( though by some expressions and denominations thereof , as namely that of the word of god ( partly at least ) thou settest them above themselves ) yet thou pullest them down so far below thy idolized meer imperfect images of the frost writings , that , to say the truth , within a little thou as much disparagest the very best of them ( as they are commonly counted ) as beyond measure thou manifiest thy own , insomuch that well-nigh the whole scene of sections in thy last chapter of thy second treatise seems to be set to drive on no other design then a louder decrying of all translations , then that of theirs , whom thou cryest out on , for decrying thy transcriptions , or then thy own crying up of them ; yea , thou dost not more strictly and absolutely avouch that untruth concerning the absolute unity of your copies of the original both with the first originals , and among themselues without any discrepancy in the least , then in that chapter principally , and partly elsewhere ( viz. ) pag. . thou avowest and purtest thy self to prove that vast variety that is in all translations among themselves , and that deep discrepancy that is in them also from both the first original text and your transcripts of it ; which variety , discrepancy and corruption yet , that is in them , thou art so far from covering from the view of the vulgar , whose souls interest lies mainly in translations ( they being not able to read the original text ) as their soul [ sayst thou ] and bodily interests also [ say i ] are concerned in your transcription , that thou openly proclaimest it , that all may see it , as it were upon the house top ; and lest any should be startled at so strange a sight , as thou presentest them with in that chapter , as that vast variety of translations of the text from the originals of it , and each from other , and begin to question whether that be the incorruptible word of god or no , which so many corruptions could creep , and are crept into , thou art so shamelesse as to help an old lame dog ore a stile ( as the proverb is ) so as to render these so many mis-representations of the literal sense and meaning of the original words , which the translators moped into , till they have torn and twined the waxen nose of your naked letter [ whereby ●e may see what a sixt and firm foundation , true touchstone , stable standard , inalterable rule , infallible guide , incorruptible word of god , ye have among you while you trust and stand to no other word then your outward letter , defying that within , in the heart , which the quakers point you to ] into more then twice , if not twenty times twenty several shapes , as an eminent help ( oh horrid ) to the manifesting of the mind of god unto men , witnesse thy own words , pag. ● at thy very entrance into that thy talk against translations , which are these ; to . to have it represented to us at one view , the several apprehensions and iudgements of so many worthy and learned men as were the authors of these , and of the various translations upon the original words of the scripture , is a signal help and aduantage vnto men enquiring into the mind and will of god in his word . reply . was the like odd conceit ever heard of , or digested with the receipt of it for truth , any where but among onr academical conjecturers , and adorers of one anothers silly thoughts ? that not unity but variety in the translations of the letter , occasioned by the various thoughts and opinions of men that translated one , about the spirit , sense of the same words , should be signally helpful towards any thing , but the confused fightings that the world is filled with about their many senses and meanings on the letter , and that our ministers fill the world with , as well about their divers transcriptions , as different translations , is much more then folly , and little lesse then madnesse to imagine . ah poor common people , you of the tongues , nations and kindreds of the earth , that understand neither the language of your academical canaanites , nor yet the true language of the land of canaan , it pities me for you still to see how all things are carried in the clouds out of your sight , for , not standing in the counsel of god , the light in your own heart , nor asking counsel of god , but at your stoical students , stocks and stones , you know not the mind of christ that way ; and as for your untrusty turn-coats that talk of truth to you for tyth , but turn truth out of doors , and turn all things up-side down , whose doings in that kind must be esteemed ere long as the potters clay , isa. . as for these i say they dig deep to hide their councel , not only from the lord , who yet in his people sees them well enough , but from you also their own people who own them , so that all their works to you-ward are done in the dark , so that ye behold not what strange transpositions , transcriptions , and translations of things there are among them ; and such as tell you plainly how they wrest the scripture like a nose of wax , which way it may best serve their interests , they hate , so that of those that have tumbled in the same belly , and sprang from same ( university ) mothers womb and bowels , with them , whose breasts the suck at , vel duo . vel nemo , my self , and very few more are escaped thence alone to tell you ; they make you believe that that is the word of god in your bibles , which is seen with your bodily eyes even the very letters , syllables , and every tittle of writing , which ye there see , which writing we confesse testifies of that word of god which gives the life ; but alas , is the word of god so flexible , alterable , that it can be changed ( which is indeed eternally the same ) into as many shapes and senses as there are men , setting their senses on work to transcribe , translate , and expound it ? nay , friends , gods word is stable and permanent , and not a tittle of that can be turned besides it self , by the tattling tongues , and pidling pens of men , that for money make it their whole lives businesse to transcribe , translate , interpret , and give you their thoughts upon this , and that , and 'tother text , till throw the throng of their thoughts , and the mists of their meanings , and mis-representations , and mis-interpretations , ye can see little of that they have translated for you out of ●heir uncertain transcripts , which yet they make you believe are in stedfast vnity with the originals , and each other , though they confesse your translations ( to good use and purpose too , if you will believe them ) are all unspeakably differing both from the first copies of scripture , and each other also . as to the state and condition of translations , which it is i. o's . drift , to discover the corruption of in order to the upholding the credit ( as to non-corruption ) of his transcriptions , he takes and gives a view of the chief of them as they lye in the biblia polyglotta . of the arabick he tells us , pag. . that should be gather instances of the failings of this translation open and grosse , and so proceed with the rest , be thinkes he might make a volumne neer as big as that of the various lections afforded in the aforesaid bible . of the syriach , he sayes pag. that it was made , hfe knows neither when nor by whom , and that in sundry places it evidently follows another corrupt translation , passed throw the hands of men ignorant and suspitious , against whose frauds and follies , by reason of the paucity of copies , we have no relief . reply . observe by the way , how i. o. when he speaks derogatively of translations , he vilifies translators as full of fraud , folly , ignorance , suspitious as if they were untrusty , and not fit to be heeded , as if they were full of oscitancy and negligence , occasioning miscarriages and mistakes in their translatings , as if they were such as had nothing to do with god , but with heathen authors in transcribings ; but when he speaks . arrogatively of transcriptions then pag. , , . the transcribers , considering that what they transcribed was , every tittle and iota of it , the word of the great god , wherein the eternal concernment of their own , and others souls did lye , and knowing they had to do with the living god ( belike the translators considered , and knew no such thing , that the work under their hands , was of the same concernment to souls ) shall we think that men in transcribing tully , homer , aristotle , would be as careful as they ? we think it not tolerable in a christian to argue so ; we scarce think the roman pontifices going solemnly to transcribe the sybils verses , would do it either negligently or treacherously , or alter one tittle from what they found written , and shall we entertain such thoughts of them , who knew they had to do with the living god , and that in and about that which is dearer to him then all the world besides ? why then dost thou entertain such course thoughts of translations j.o. ? had not they to do with god in the same , that was ( as thou cloudily conceivest , for though the word is , yet the latter is not so ) dearer to him then the whole world ? yea and sometimes when thou talkest of corrupt novel transcripts , thou hast the same ill thoughts of transcribers , and accusest them , when their copies are quoted against thee , to prove various lections , for malicious depraving , as much as thou excusest them at other times : yea thou canst not think the romane pontifices would mistranscribe sybils prophecies in one tittle negligently or treacherously ; yet dost entertain such thoughts of them about the scripture , in which , who hath to do , hath to do with the living god , whether in transcribing , translating , or interpreting , and inveighest against them , as betraying , falsifying , vitiating , interpolating , altering , adding , detracting , and what not ? to the corrupting of the scripture . ep. p. . oh the pure ●rounds that i. o. runs ' in ! of the samaritane pentateuch he sayes the places instanced in by morinus do prove it corrupt , p. . of the chaldee paraphrase he sayes p. . that seeing it did not lye under any peculiar care , and merciful prouidence of god , whether innumerable faults and errours , as it happened with the septuagint , may not be got into it , who can tell ( saith i. o. himself ) and ( say i ) who can tell that this or that transcription lay more under the peculiar care , and merciful providence of god , which i. o. so much insists on , then this or that translation ? yet i. o. will be telling out his thoughts still for absolute truths . of the vulgar latine , that its of an uncertain originall , its corruptions , and barbarisms , its abuse so much hath been spoken of , and by so many already , that it were to no purpose to repeat it , p. ● . of the . that all things about it are uncertain , and nothing almost manifest concerning it , but that it is wofully corrupt . p. : and p. : that translation i. e. the . either from the mistakes of its first authors , or the carelesnesse , or ignorance , or worse , of the transcribes , ( mark how here i. o. shrewdly suspects transcribers of carelesnesse , or gods carelesnesse over them , whom at other times he says shall we think they were oscitant or negligent , lying under a merciful aspect , and providence of god ) is corrupted , or gone off from the original in a thousand places twice told , and that its a corrupt stream , a lesbian rule . on the account of which , and some others , no whit better , or scarce so good , are exhibited ; . various lections , with insinuation of an infinite number more , and p. . if the ability of the authors be urged . and granted , an unlikely to erre so much , what security ( quoth i. o. ) have we of their principles and honesty ? i say as much as we have of either the ability principles and honesty of thy ( so implicitly trusted to ) transcribers ; what warrant more hast thou to hold all transcribers more trusty then these , that were , for ought is kuown , the first , and the most emine●t translators in the world , insomuch that whether translated or mistranslated , m●st priests do●e more on it then on your hebrew copies : yet thou citest cardinal ximineus ( whereby we see popish authors , when siding with you , are cited by you as authentick as others ) as●erring of this so much adored , and even idolized translation , that it is sometimes supersluous , and sometimes wanting , p. . and cardinal bel●armine † also whom thou citest , and creditest , that it is as a corrupt translation out of the text , so it felt corrupt and vitrated . and p. . eiting hierom , as so saying , thou sayest it is corrupt , interpolated , mingled , and that there were so many copies of it , and they so varying , that no man knowes what to follow : and if a translation may so be , why the original it self may no so be by many various copies , he must be a wiser man than i that knows , of the ae●biopian and persian translations , of the new testament , he sayes p. . that he supposes it may sately be said , they are the worst , and most corrupt that are extant in the world ; and of the ae●biopian he saith , p. it is no whit better , but a novell endeavour of an illiterate person , and of all in grosse , he sayes thus in the same page , that would be make it his businesse to give instances of the mistakes , ignorance , falsifications , errours , and corruption of these translators , who ere they were , iews or christians , his discourse would swell into a volume ; and lastly p . also thou , without exception of any , depr●ssett all translations , which is all the people have so far below transcriptions which ye linguists have , as to say thus of them viz. translations , con●ain the word of god , and are the wo●d of god , perfectly or imperfectly , according as they expresse the sense and meaning of those originals , and of the transcriptions ye linguists have : to advance any , all translations as concurring into an equality with the original , so to set them by it , as to set them up with it on even terms , is to set up an altar of our own by the altar of god , and to make equal the wisdome , skill , and diligence of men , with the wisdom , care , and providence of god himself . so saith d. featly p. . of his dipters d●pt , the bible translated is not the undoubted word of god but so far onely as it agreeth with the original which ( as i am informed , ) none of you understand , quoth he to wil. kiffis , and the other russet rabbies he disputed with . reply . first then observe , that by your own confession , all that poor people have , which is bare translation is but an altar of your own setting up , among them , & not gods altar , for thou callest transcription the altar of god , or the issue of the wisdom , care , and providence of god himself ; but translation , an altar of your own , the issue of the wisdom , providence and diligence of man onely , that must not be reckoned on as gods word , nor stand in equall esteem with the scriptures ye scribes enjoy . alas poor people , you and yours must be thrust out still , ( as christ was ) into the manger , for whom there was no room in the inne , ye must be content with shame , to keep at your distance from your doctors , and lordly scholars , and to take the lowest room ; they must have a dominion over you and your faith too , and you must never fare and feed so high as them , but in the stable as rusticks , or but russet rabbies among the bruits , and be glad to snap at a crust , and be fed at their dispose from their pens , and mouths with a bit , and a bite , if you put not into their mouths , and pay not you shot well too for that short commons , and poor pasture ye have from them : those scriptures they or some one of many among them can read in greek and hebrew , are ( quoth i. o. ) entirely to a tittle preserved without losse ; ( though but remote transcriptions by fallible men ) answerable to the first immediate manuscripts , that were written by inspiration from god , the word of god perfectly , duly advanced into an equality and even terms ( for i remember not where in all his book he puts the transcripts , though i know , and he acknowledgeth , that in some things there are varieties among them too , below the first manuscripts ) with that given out at first , every apex of which † is equally divine , and ( if a man be to be beleeved when he speaks falsly , or foolishly , for want of fear or wit ) as immediately from god as the voice , wherewith or wherein be spake to or in the prophets , but this is mear for your masters , or little lesse then forbidden ( at least hidden ) fruit from you , who , what light soever ye have from god , yet have not learning enough to let you into an intermedling with the ( open ) secrets of their ( living ) dead letter ; as for your scripture which is but translation out of theirs , hear what they say of it ; who exalt it far above it self into a participation , ( thy the halves ) of the same high prerogatives with theirs , and a taste of that glorious † title , the word of god , yet so as that it must know it self too , and not intrude further into it then they give leave , by their right or wrong renditions of it , ont of their for ever to be adored right-wrong copies , who in the blinduesse of their busie brains , vanity , and follishnesse of their thoughts , and fleshly wisdom , that 's enmity against god , and enters no farther into the inside of the scripture , than the eye-sight of a mole into a milstone , may render it as it seems best to themselves , and you lack lingua's little the wiser : and if they give your scripture an inch , it must take heed of taking an ell ; for as there 's a bit , so there 's a knock , if it presume too far ; it s admitted to be the word of god with theirs , but not on even terms , theirs wholly and euery apex of it , yours but by the halues , or so far onely as it corresponds with theirs , from which if it offer to vary , by theirs it must be corrected , castigated , in order to its amendment in time to come : theirs being perfectly the word of god , yea every tittle of it the living word of the great god , though but transcribed ( as yours is but translated ) in the wisedom , skill , and diligence of men : yours imperfectly and perfectly too , perfectly or imperfectly , according as yours expresse the words , sense and meaning of their origina's , so that though it can be counted no robbery for theirs ( which is but the fruit of mans wisdom , skill , and diligence ) . and ( as now transcribed ) was not ( as is confest ) received immediately from god , to be made equall with that which was at first received more immediately from him , as the fruit of his wisdom , care , and providence , yet its robbery for yours , that comes but as theirs doth , through the skill , wisdom , and diligence of men ; and within a small matter as immediately from god as theirs doth , to be equall with theirs , and howbeit they may lawfully , without pride , set up their meer transcriptions , so as to make them sir cheek by chole with the first hand-writings , and set up their own altar , or altered copies of hebrew and greek , with that higher altar of god , even the letter , or first copy , and set up mans posts by gods posts , even both the first manuscripts , and their own tottered transcripts too , into an equallity of titles , honour , power , perfection , authority , necessity , &c. with the true living word of god , which the first and truest scripture that ever was , was at best but a true scripture , writing or declaration of , yet your posts , and altars , and scriptures must keep aloof , and not come so nigh theirs , as theirs to gods , without a check . by all wch , that 's here written in this apostrophe to you , o poor deluded people , ye may see what a low condition ye are deprest into , till you betake your selves to the light of god within , which was before any letter to writing was without , which the scriptures cry up & call you to , while your scribes cry it down , cry out against it , and call you from it ; ye may see how ye are thrust out with a pueri sacer est locus extra meijete , meddle not here ye mechanicks , ye unlearned laicks , from the lines of their communication , by your fanatical , fantastical , high flown , haughty haebricians , and greedy graecians , that for filthy lucre take the oversight of , or rather over you , and that take upon them by force , to be your guides , before whom you are fain to stand like some poor stupified peasant before his prince ; to whom if the one say but rex sum , sic uolo , sic jubeo , so i mean to have it , the other hath no more to do , but ineak away , nor to say , but amen , so be it , nil ultra quaero plebeius . it follows then , that none but schollars have the undoubted word of god , for people understand not original tongues , nor many priests the hebre● : and so though they say hear the word of god , they have no undoubted word of god to preach out of it ; while they take their texts out of english bibles . so people and blind priests , have no undoubted , infallible rule , touchstone to try truth by : for if this he so , how is the scripture ( as they have it ) the most perfect rule to them ? both people and illiterate priests must either get hebrew and greek , or else confesse that they live as much by tradition in england , taking things on trust from the priests , without tryall , as they do at rome ; for what difference between having scripture & no scripture in the mother tongue , when ( notwithstanding that which is so had ) men cannot be sure which is the word of god , which not but as the priests tell them so : and if priests be minded to deceive them , they may translate it to their own turn as they please , and people ne're the wiser , & so make the scripture , as a nose of wax , to stand to themselves , & lead the world by the nose as they have ever done , which way soever they will. so i confesse i. o. that i see the scriptures , as taken for the translations set somewhat lower by thee than the first manuscripts , and then your transcriptions in the place above quoted ( yet entitled too with the name of the word of god in part ) but your transcriptions , to an apex , are equalized with the first manuscripts , and both these elsewhere wholly with the light and living word . it is then the meer transcripts , and neither the first manuscripts nor translations , that thou talkest so exceeding strictly for the non alteration , or non-corruption of in a title , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being lost out of the world , and translations , excluded the lists o● thy apologetical vindication of the scripture in the externall text thereof , in vindication of which transcriptions of the hebrew and greek texts , ( not appearing at all for the english , save quatenus agreeing with the other p. . . ) thou talkst on argumentatively as follows . arg. . to prove the whole scripture ( memorandum of old and new testament ) to remain entire to this day without ablation , or alteration of it in one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or tittle thou urgest p. . the providence of god in taking care of his word , which he hath magnified over all his name , as the most glorious product of his wisdom and goodnesse , his great concernment in this world , answering his promise to this purpose . rep. this leads the front of that ragged regiment of arguments , which follow it at the heels , in p. . . . being no lesse than . in number , or a whole iury impannel'd to try this case , of which this is the foreman , that speaks more then they all , for it s insisted on , or hinted at or'e and o're and or'e , in i know not how many places of thy book , as if thou laydst more stresse , and purrest more trust in this , than in all the rest , and indeed though it is a most piteous poor one , yet seeing i know no better , it may be called ( as its rank'r before the rest ) the very best in all the pack . let 's see then what force this consideration ( viz. ) the love , providence , care , and promise of god , to his church and word , engaging for the preservation , and continuance of it to a tittle , without losse , hath in it to evince the entirenesse of the hebrew and greek text to a tittle . that the love. care and providence of god is to or ore his church , and so ore his word for his churches sake i deny not in the least , and that his word he speaks he magnifies ore all his name , as the most glorious product of his wisdom and goodness , as his great concernment in this world , dearer to him than all the world besides , which his promise is for the continuance of it so inalterably entire and uncorrupt , that heaven and earth it self shall pass away , as christ saies , matth. . . before , one jot and tittle thereof shall fail or pass away ; and that not one apex , tittle , or point of that hath yet failed , or been altered , or is liable for capable to be altered or corrupted : all this i grant , for his word is the incorruptible seed that lives and abides for ever . but what 's all this to thy purpose i. o. whose talk is only about the outward writings , image , copy , letter , text , which talks of that word , and who producest all this to prove every tittle of that text to be entire ? wilt thou never learn to put , or at least to keep that difference , which somtimes , when thou art deliberate , thy self pu●test between the word that is written of , and the text , which is the meer writing of it ? dost not thou p. . . ( though i know thou blindly blendest them together both there and throughout thy book ) make the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the writing , the book , the letter one thing ; and the faith , word , doctrine declared in it , another ? dost thou not distinguish now and then ( as every wise man does ever ) between the text it self that talks of the truth , and the truth it self which the text talks on ? we know the truth , and faith , and doctrine , and word of god , which is but one and the same in its nature , essence , being , and substance , whether written or not written of , whether cloathed or not cloathed in this or that outward , accidental forme , whether displaying it self through the vail of the letter , or shewing it self more immediately in its naked native lustre , is to a tittle the same now that it ever was , in substance though all the shadowy discoveries of it wax old . and vanish , and as a vesture are folded up and changed , and pass away as a scrole that 's roled up , and grows out of date , when all letters and literal appearances of it shall be mouldered away . the word was before the letter was , aud is neither more nor less what it was , now the letter is , and will be no less than it was of old , or what now it is , as to its preservation in every point , when the letter shall be no more . so that what are all thy propositions about gods promise , and providence , and love , and care of his church and word to evince or prove the entire preservation of every iot and tittle of an outward text , or an old uncertain transcript of what was by the holy men of god some thousands of years since written ? between which word and the writing , or light and the letter which leads only to it , there 's no more proportion ( as i may shew thee more anon ) than is between the lanthorn and the light , the glass window and the sun that shines through it ; or then ( as thy self intimatest ) there is between the ark and the testament or covenant , that for a while was used to be kept in it . dost not thou count the letter the ark , p. . saying , the iews have now the letter , as somtimes they had the a●k among the philistims to their further ruine , and p. . for my own part i am sollicitous for the ark or the sacred truth of the original . yea such proportion say i as the ark , that kept it , bore to the letter of the old testament that was laid up in it , the same doth the old testament it self , the whole 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or bare letter , or shadowy dispensation bear unto the light , word of god , or new testament , which is not a literal , but a spiritual administration now as it would be f●lly and absurdity in the abstract for a man to argue the light to be the proper name of the lanthorn which exhibits it , the sun the proper name of the glass it shines through , and the writing or letter of the old testament the proper name of the ark , in which it was laid up , and then to affirm all the properties that appertain peculiarly to the light , sun , letter , belong to the lanthorn , glass , ark respectively , and to plead from the unchangeableness of the light , the permanency of the sun , the long duration of the letter . ( some of which in some uncertain copies abides to this day ) that the lanthorn is unalterable , the window inviolable , the ark abiding the self same , and not one jor or inch of it is lost or altered to this day ; but in all points in the same that it was when moset made it , because some copies , imagess and pictures of it are found painted on walls , aud printed in books , or so , to this day , semblably as ridiculous it is to the full to argue the letter is immediately come to us from god without interveniency of any medium obnoxious to fallibility , the text is not capable to be altered , not is altered in one tittle so , but that its intirely the same that it was at first in every point , syllable and iota , because the light , faith , doctrine , truth , and word , which is as the sun , the same still and preserved in the providence of god , full , firm , and sure , as all the ordinances of heaven are , whether it shews it self through a glass only or without it . now then howbeit we own all that which i. o. tells of the providential care and promise of god as to the preserving of his word to his church to be true , as told of his word , yet as spoken of the letter , as gods great concernment in this world dearer to him than all the world , the most glorious product of his wisdom and goodness , and such like , and as urg'd in proof of the text , and each tittle of that to be entire and eternal as the heavens ; i say ( as so ) every tittle of it is false . and i would fain know of i o. what text of scripture god ever made such a promise in concerning the text or the scripture , that he would in his care and providence preserve every titt'e of that outward writing , for his church and his words sake , which was written at the motion of his spirit , so that it never should be so mis-transcribed in any tittle of it , but that in the greek and hebrew copies ( not english ( mark that ) nor any translated , but only transcribed copies ) he would keep it from being so adulterated , vitiated , altered , depraved , and interpolated as not to be every jot the same verbatim as at first : i say i. o. where is that promise so made to this purpose , which his providence is so engaged to answer ? is it in isa. . . the place thou quorest together with a whole nest of others to the same end . p. . ( viz. ) matth . . pet . . cor. . matth. . . not one of which make one jot of mention of the letter , text , or any tittle thereof at all ? that in isaiah there cited is hinted at , and harp : upon to the same tune in , or pages in thy d treatise , viz. , , , , , , . in all which more or less , in whole or part thou talkest much of the transcribers lying under a loving and careful aspect from the promise and providence of god in beir transcribing , alluding all along to i● . . as if god had there engaged himself by promise , as it were , to guide their hands that they should not erre in a tittle for his word and churches sake : but is there the least tittle of such a promise there made ? and look it ●ore again , and see if there be such a thing touche upon in the least , either expressly or implicity , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as thou speakst ) or by consequence either immediate or far fetcht : the words are these to the church , under the new covenant or gospel : my words which i have put into thy mouth , shall not depart out of the mouth of thy seed , nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed from henceforth for ever : here i confesse is a promise to keep his words in the mouths of his servants under the gospel in the latter dayes especially , so that they shall by word of mouth , and writing , bear testimony against the world to his truth and name , even the whole seed of the righteous successively for ever , without fail , as now they begin to do , even ●abes and sucklings , out of whose mouths and stammering lips the lord is speaking , to reprove the world , and the proud doctors , pharisaical , self-seeking teachers , and to convince all ungodly ones of their ungodly deeds and hard speeches they speak against him in his saints , in whom he comes to judgement : but what 's this to the preservation of i. o's . greek and hebrew texts to a tittle , without alteration ? this is not spoken of the continuance of any outward scripture , but of that word of faith , in the heart and mouth , which the apostles rom. . preacht to turn men to , telling them 't was nigh , and they need not look without for it : was ever man so bemoped , as to draw such a conclusion as thou dost from that scripture , ( viz. ) that every tittle of the text of scripture given out of old , should be secured without one jot of losse , to the worlds end ; and if that were the promise there made , it was never made good since ( as is shewed above ) the scriptures of sundry whole prophecies and epistles , written by inspiration , are lost since then : nay rather , and indeed , that text produces a truth , which thou deniest , that in the last dayes his word and spirit shall be ( de novo ) so poured out , shed abroad , and planted in the heares of his handmaids and servants , sons and daughters , that they shall prophesie , and reach as of old , by word of mouth his word , as put into them by god himself ; yet i. o. i know not how often betakes himself to that text , to make good his talk of the eternal entirenesse , to a tittle , of his outward text , in the greek and hebrew transcripts thereof , without which the word is as true entire , and secure , ( as it is when the text is entire ) when the text is torn to pieces , and every tittle of it mouldred away . beside , if that were a promise of preserving the text , it must evince the text , is to endure for ever , world without end , as the word it self doth , for its never to depart for ever , from the seed that it 's there promised to , but i. o. confesses , the scripture is not to abide for ever , in its use ; which is onely faith he , ex. . s. . presenti statui , &c. suited to our present state , and ( say i ) as it shall cease , as to it's use , so once to its esse or very being . obj. and if i. o. urge , as he does in effect , that it 's true , the word , and doctrine , and truth , is the thing promised to be continued for ever primarily , but consequentially the letter and it's tittles , for as much as without it be preserved in that , and that be preserved entire to a tittle , the word it self cannot be preserved from corruption . rep. he had as good have told me , ( & as soon i should have believed him in it ) that because moses by gods appointment made an ark , to lay the book , tables and letter in , the two tables and letter written on it could not last any longer then the ark , or be kept from being lost any where be not kept so entire , that not one bit or scrap of it be broken or lost , there is no hopes that ever the light should shine out or be kept alive , or be beheld , yea if one inch of horn , or a nail , or the least pin about the ark had happened to be shattered , or got any knock , or any odd corner of it be broken off with being carried , jumbled , or tossed to and sro between israel and the philistines , there had been no means of preserving the letter from being lost ; or as if one should say , the glasse window is set up that the sun may shine through it , therefore suppose that to be crackt , or to have any flawes in it , or to suffer the losse of but one little piece of a pane , there 's no likelihood of enjoying the clear bright beams of the sun , more distinctly , or at any certainty , nor can i be satisfied unquestionably , that the sun it self remains inviolate , unlesse ye can assure me that there is every barley-corns bredth of the glasse-window , without any losse , as it was at first setting up , though yet we see now the sun both is the same , and is better seen , when beheld without a glasse then thorough it , and is most clear when the glasse window is taken down , and it beheld more immediately in the light that shines from it self , he were fit to be canonized for a fool , that would count him a very wife man , at least ; as to that affair , that should so affirm ; so let who will esteem of i. o's wisedom in this point , yet i am not such a fool yet , or not so wise , or something , as to believe him : howbeit , who e're believes , or believes him not , in such wise as this aforesaid , he talks in effect ; while p. . . he sayes thus , without proof ( as he does most things ) according to his own vain thoughts , as followes , viz. i. o. the providence of god hath manifested it self , no lesse concerned in the preservation of the writings , then the doctrine contained in them . rep. which is a loud one , for many holy prophets writings are lost , but not a doit of the doctrine . i. o. the writing it self being the product of his own eternall councel , for the preservation of the doctrine , after a sufficient discovery of the insufficiency of all other means , for that end and purpose . rep. which is another , for the doctrine can never perish , if every tittle of the text should . i. o. the malice of satan hath raged no lesse against the book , than the truth certained in it . rep. which is a third . for satan will allow people bibles and texts enough to talk of truth out of , so they walk not in truth . i. o. it was no lesse crime to be traditor libri , then abnegator fidei . rep. which is a fourth false tale , for the burning the book can't murder the faith as having the light does , which with it's fellows , i have disproved , and given reasons against , above ; and while p. . . . in answer to capellus his honest grants , that the saving doctrine of the scripture , as to the matter and substance of it in all things of moment , is preserved in the copies of the original , and translations that do remain , j.o. assenting first to it as truth , to the overthrowing of himself ( as he often does ) that notwithstanding all the errours and mistakes in the most corrupt translations , yet every necessary , saving , fundamentall truth is found , sufficiently testified to therein ( or if he deny that of translations , let him do it , and see what a pickle he puts poor people into , who upon the account of that denyal , will be found not to have all saving truth in their bibles ) he asserts . i. o. that 't is not enough to satisfie him , that ( in his doted on transcribed copies of the original ) the doctrines mentioned are preserved entire , every tittle and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must come under care and consideration , or else injury is done to the providence of god towards his church , and care of his word , and that it will not be found an easie matter , upon a supposition of such corruptions of the originals , ( in tittles and points &c. as is pleaded for against him ) to evince unquestionably , that the whole saving doctrine it se●f , at first given out from god ▪ continues entire and uncorrupt . rep. oh grosse , as if the entirenesse of the eternall truth , that was before all external text was , was now so subjected , as to depend on the entirenesse of a tottering text for its security , or else is lost for ever ; and yet yielded to be preserved entire in translations , that are corrupt in more then tittles , but not possib●e to be kept entire in transcriptions , if any tittle be mis-transcribed therein . i o that the nature of the doctrine is such , that there is no other principle , and means of its discovery , no other rule , or measure of iudging and determining any thing about or concerning it , but onely the writing out of which it is taken . rep. as if the doctrine comes from the writing , when as the writing came from the truth and doctrine . i. o. it being wholly of divine revelation , and that revelation being exprest onely in that writing . rep. absit absurdum , de quo vere dicitur quod posito uno sequuntur millia . as if revelation were not made more truely , clearly , distinctly , and immediately by the light and spirit , then ( mediante litera ) by the mediation of the letter , that comes from it , in which thou sayst revelation only is made , before which yet the doctrine was revealed . i. o. that upon any corruption supposed in the transcript copies of the originall , ( but not the translations ) there 's no means of rectifying the doctrine . rep. no , by no means its like , as if the spirit and light could not now possibly reveal it , as easily as at first , and as if truth were not as equally by the spirit exposed to the understanding of men in all ages , as in some : and as if pure revelation were not made now by the light , and spirit of truth , which depends solely on revelation , as it ever did , and not on a letter that came from it . thus much to the first of those scriptures urged by thee i. o. to prove the promise of god to preserve the scripture , even ! every tittle of the external texts in transcripts , ( not translations ) , for ever , and the second is like unto it , ( viz ) math. . . where though christ talks of not one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or tittle failing , he that shall understand him speaking there , of the outward writing , and outward tittles of the law of it , many tittles and books , of which were lost before that , and not of the light it self , which is that law , the letter is but a copy of , and of the word it self that christ speaks , which is that that is heard by his sheep onely , in the heart , and that comes immediately from his own mouth , understands neither what he says , nor whereof he affirmes ; yet in three places i. o. quotes it to evince the integrity , and identity of every tittle of the text , as 't was at first , ( viz. ) p. . . . the third is as little , alias not one jot not tittle to i. o's purpose , ( viz. ) pet. . . where peter speaks no more of any outward texts or transcripts , then if he had said nothing at all : nor of such a corrupting thing as manuscripts , texts , and transcripts , titles , and dead letters are , but of the incorruptible seed , the word of god , that liveth , and endureth for ever , ver . . even the word of the gospel , which was that word of faith paul also writes of , rom. . . which was preached by the apostles , and testified to by them , and their scripture , and moses scripture , deut. . . and all outward scripture , that its nigh within , in the heart and mouth . the fourth , viz. cor. . no verse of which is quoted , is so far from adding a cubit to i. o's cause about the scripture , that there 's no mention made of any scripture at all , thoroughout the whole chapter ; so that what verse he should infer or scrue any thing from , to evince the scripture to be entire to a tittle , i can't imagine . paul tells of things he had delivered to them before , which-whether it were by word of mouth , or epistle , he intimates not there ; but whether it were by orall preaching , or writing is much at one to i. o. for if by writing , which serves i , o. most , yet he means not the writing it self , or epistle , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the things he delivered , as he did to the thessalonians , . thes . by word , or epistle , and if i. o. will have it so , that t was by a former epistle , then he serves me against t. d. and himself , more than himself against me , acknowledging the first epistle of paul to corinth ( which he wrote before the first of the two we have , and mentions . cor. . ) to be authentick and canonical and so that a whole canonical epistle of that holy apostle ( and that 's more than a tittle , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) is utterly lost . the fifth , viz. math. . . teaching them to observe whatever i command you , and so i am with you alway , even to the end of the world : which way i. o. can from thence conclude a promise for every tittle of inspired scripture to be preserved for ever entire without losse , or alteration , i see not ; but i see one thing , that if i. o. hobble but upon a text of scripture , he thinks at a venture it must serve his turn , about the entirenesse and integrity of the text , and its tittles , though there be no mention of scripture made at all in it ▪ for here 's none in this , in which christ bids them , teach the nations to observe what he commanded them , and that they did , & he promised then to be with them alway , to the end of the world , as he was , and is ever with his people , by his light , word , they being turned to it themselves : but what 's all this to the tittles of hebrew and greek texts ? unlesse i. o. say they are the christ that he meant , when he laid i will be with you ; never did i see men in two books so miserably wrest , and mis-interpret scripture , on pretence of vindicating scripture , as t. d. and i. o. do . yea i. o. there is scarce any , or but very few , of all the scriptures thou quotest in all thy books , but thou pervertest them more or lesse , as t. d. does the most , if not all he meddles with : whether about the scripture , or the word , or foundation , or rule , or what ever else . and as for these five last examined , if thou hadst not sent me to them to that end , i should as soon of my self have gone to seek a dolphin in the woods , as lookt into any one of them to find god promising in his love to his church , and word , and in order to the preserving of them both , to be carefull to set his providence so on work , as to lay the transcribers of the scriptures in the hebrew and greek tongues ( but not the transla●ors of them into other tongues , in which yet his care , and love to his church , though not to the clergy , that trade out of their original texts , would as much appear , and his truth , and most mens souls are as much concerned , and more too , then in hebrew and greek texts , if the scripture were the onely way to life ) under his loving aspect , so as to see they should not misse , nor falsifie in a tittle ; though he would leave translators out of the lists of that loving aspect , to erre and corrupt as much as they would : for howbeit i ken not the mystery of i. o's mind , in this , nor any reason why ( if god love his church and word ) he should not in his care to preserve both , oversee , with a loving aspect , that translators should not mis-translate , as well as transcribers not mis-transcribe , yet i. o. allowes the loving aspect of god to transcribers , but ( whether god himself do so or no , i dare not say ) denying that great favour as in which his church is much concerned , as in the other , to translators . for p. . speaking of the chaldee paraphrase , he sayes thus , viz. seeing it hath not lain under any peculiar care , and mercifull providence of god , whether innumerable other faults be not get into it , and errours , not to be discovered by any varieties of copies , as it is happened with the sepmagint , who can tell ? no promise , nor providence , nor mercy , nor loving aspect , to the poor peoples scripture still , which is that of translation onely , for they cannot read hebrew and greek , their part may go whither it will , god looks not after it : but such darlings do our doctors and clergy men deem themselves to be with god , that his love , care , oversight , promise , providence and all , is towards every tittle of their transcripts , that they may trade with their text , and mete out what they will to men for money from it ; should any qua. make such mad conclusions , their books would be good enough to be burned ; and thou i. o wouldst iudge them no better . egregiam vero laudem & spolia ampla refertis tuque liberque tuus , magnum & memorabile nomen . having foild the front-guard of that ragged rout , the rest that have far lesse reason in them , ( if lesse can be ) are soon routed . arg. the second , is the religious care of the church ( not of the romish synagogue sayst thou ) to whom these oracles of god were committed . rep. what church then ( if not the remish synagogue ) hath had that commission of the scriptures to her , and that religious care thou here talkst on , to keep every tittle of the text entire , without losse or change ? i do not say that the now romane harlot hath now or ever had in her apostatical slate , such a commission of the scripture to her , as she pretends to , as if they were the onely trustees , to whose care and custody the text was committed of god , for as to their proud prate , and peculiar claim , to such a preheminent power , to be keepers and preservers of the scripture , i deny it , nay with thy self in the . . . . pages of thy epistle . i disown and damn their deceitfull pretence , to such a trust reposed in them : and if they had enjoy'd any such , they have ( as thou sayest truly ) manifested a treacherous mind , and falsified their trust egregiously , and so cannot stand in judgement , if called to account upon their own principles , having indeed so far as they have had to do with the scriptures , altered , added , detracted , depraved , vitiated , interpolated , and done what not ? to corrupt them , during the long time of their dominus fac-totum-ship , in whole christendom , about scripture , and every thing else ad extra , that had any pretence toward the truth ; and while the scripture of the old , but the new testament , more specially ( seeing the iewes reject it ) lay lockt up from all the laity , within the lines of her conclavical , clerical conemunication ; for though de jure they ought not so to have impropriated it , but were arrogant usurpers in so doing , yet that de facto they had the grand custody of that ye call your canon , and changed it as they pleased , i should judge thee more silly then i am willing to do , if thou shouldst deny it , there being no visibly constituted christian church , as to outward order , in all europe , that was other then a member of that blind , babylonish body , for at least a thousand years together . but if that church had not ( as i say they had not ) canst thou tell me what church had the exact tale of so many books of the scripture , as ye talk on , and call your canon , committed to her of god , any more then they ? or if thou say the whole true apostolical church of christ , under the gospel , had that scripture we count the canon , and no more , committed to it , where was there ever such a thing done ? by whom ? or when ? canst thou tell us any of this thou talkst on ? or give us any testimony of scripture for this , or trusty tradition , or any ground whereupon to act divine faith in this ( with thee ) so fundamental a matter , save ●he fiction of thy own fancy , and thy own meer untrusty thoughts , and blindly confident conjectures ? thou thinkst that in . tim. . . will serve thy turn in this case , but i have overturned that already : and if ever there were such a divine commission of so many writings , as a canon by christ or his apostles to the gospel-church ( though i abhor that paultry , novelly pretended primacy of rome , over other particulars ) yet while it remained in its primitive apostolical purity , it had as deep a share , as any other , in that commission of the canon to her ; and so thy two questions , ep. p. . what scripture was this they say was committed to them , and when was this deed of trust made unto them , have full as much in them ( but that plane nibilest ) to answer thee withall , as thou hast to answer me , who of the church to whose care and custody thou sayest the scripture was committed since christ , and by him , or his apostles ; do here ask thee , what church is that ( for thou amazest thy own , and seek'st ( as priests do ) to stun other mens minds with the name of the church , the church ) but what church is that , whose care is said by thee to be so great , whilst rome's was so little , to keep every tittle of the text entire , and to whose care and custody it was to that end committed , and intrusted ? and ( in thy own words to rome , so ) i to thee , propound , what scripture was this , or where was this deed of trust made unto them ? and since it was not the church of rome ( as i freely agree with thee it was not ) what church was it ? or where liv'd it , or by what name or title , beside that generall blind people-confounding name of church , dost thou call it ? was it some one universal , catholick , visibly constituted , true christian church , that had such a constant , clearly visible continuance , and successive outward orderly being in a body , as that romane harlot hath ever seemed to have from christ , downward to this day ? was it your ( what should i call it ? ) mingle-mangled episcopall-presbyter-independant church , that 's run out from the womb of that babylonish bawd , through the loines of your late fathers , the prelates , and scottish presbyters , into that ragged , patcht posture , wherein it now stands , like a participle , that 's neither this nor that , nor noun substantive , that can stand by it self , without the magistrates help , nor verb that betokens either doing or suffering , any great matters for the truth , but most like an adjective that leans upon parliaments , and earthly powers to uphold it , partaking with all sides , as occasion is , and of all formes something , yet is just nothing , but some participle , or papalprelatical-presbyterian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( i.e. ) vere nihil but a mongrel ? was it this church , that is one , not individually , but specifically the same , with what yours is , at this present , derived downward , and carefully receiving the scripture downward entirely , in all its hebrew and greek letters , accents , points , tittles , and iota's , without change , or losse in the least ? is so shew us but some few footsteps of such a thing through the time of the catholike apostacy , as a visible constituted church , which might have been known by the distinction of elders , bishops , deacons , &c. in the dark dayes of romes dominion , ( except that of rome it self ) that had the canon constituted of no more nor l●sse , but just so many scriptures , letters , stories , tittles , iota's ( as thou trislingly tatlest ) by the apostles , and so committed to their care , and as carefully handed down to you linguists , in every letter of the original languages , without alteration , addition or diminution ? but i more than suppose thou shalt as soon find , and follow to a hairs breadth , the very way of a bird flying , or an arrow shot through the air , as decypher such a matter : and if the papists should put the question , de novo , to thee , as they did long since , to the protestants , where was your church before luther ? if thou couldst prove the pedegree of thine so high as luther ( though witnesses to the truth more or lesse , in all times , suffering in sackcloth , in the most dismall dayes i own , ) yet thou wouldst be as much puzled to prove any other constituted church , that kept so entire ( as thou talkst ) thy constituted canon , in all christendom , beside that of the romish synagogue , that corrupted it , as that namelesse author was , who wrote an answer to it , , entituled luthers predecessors , who though he quits himself well in proving downward from iohn wicklisse , who was well nigh . years afore luther , but . after christ , a company of particular successive sufferers , for some truth that began to shine out again from under the romish smother ; yet can instance no higher then io. wicklisse for at least a . years upward , any thing at all , but an universal dominion of the church of rome , confessing that if the papists will tye him to prove any visible constituted church beside theirs , before luther , the task is unequall because the records are wanting , and also because the church was not in the long time of apostacy , nor yet was to be alwaies in such a manner visible ; which is the very truth , for the true church was to be , and was according to the word of prophesie : rev. . in a waste , suffering , afflicted , desolate , forlorn , widernesse , condition , trodden under feet by the gentiles , coming into the out court , the outward name and profession of christianity , rev. . and as when in her primitive glory she was cloathed with the sun , and a crown of twelve stars on her head , i.e. the doctrine , truth , word of faith , the apostles preached ( and not simply those few of their naked writings , and letters , and texts , and their tittles , and thou simply contendest ) on her head , and the moon , i.e. all changeable things , such as all texts , and transcripts , and tittles , and iota's are , under her feet , so when she came into her forlorn solitary state , in the time ( which was while the whore , or clergy began to ride the beast , and fit upon the waters , tongues , nations , kings , and kindreds of the earth , and to cry ecce duo gladii hic , to claim both swords and to become supreamly ( as she made her sub-sub , or magistratical power , that bore her up subordinately to her ) not onely custos utriusque tabulae , vice-preserver of both tables , but pretendedly , custos utriusque testamenti , chief commissioners , trustees , and keepers of both testaments ) when she was driven to and fro , and chased like a roe , or sheep , and kept under , and domineered over , by the said mystical whore , and hunted , as well as by the heathen emperors , in the first three hundred years , or ten first persecutions , she was in her several witnesses massacred , murderd , hang'd , burnt , headed , fryed , flead , tortured in all the wayes that tyrants could invent ; though you that have no changes , and therefore fear not god , and sit at ease in your ce●ls , and are not shifted from vessel to vessel , and so like moab , have an ill sent settled in you , can have time to talk to each other with your tongues , and in your treatises about your texts , in severall tongues , and your letter in this language , that and t'other ; yet the true church , which , but that the care , and providence , and presence of god was with her according to his promise , full hardly kept , and had much ado to keep the truth in the inward parts , and her self from the outrages committed on her ) had other weightier matters to mind , and look after , and meddle with , then the seeking out , and looking up , and keeping , and preserving of such toyes , as ye are now taken , and wholly taken up with ; that is to say , the integrity of the hebrew and greek texts , the points , vowels , accents , triviall tittles , and iota's : and where thou find'st the spouses care , according to a commission given her from god , to be so extream , as thou intimarest about these matters ( excepting in thy own nfinitely forging fancy ) no wise seeker shall ever find . arg. thy third is the care of the first writers in giving out authentique copies , of what they had received from god unto many , which might be rules to the first transcribers . reply . o' cur as hominum , &c. from whence didst thou fetch this false and foolish piece of faith , save from the old fathomlesse fountain of thy own fancy ? which , if something as good as nothing may serve ( as easily it may to fasten falsity upon fools ) will find something to say for every thing that it finds occasion to fain ; where readest thou that the first writers of every corner of thy ( so called ) canon , ( which thou must adaequate thy proof to , as well as to the whole , or else thou syllogizest short of what thou aimest at ) took such care to give out authentick copies of what they wrote , as from god , unto many , to ●●is end , that they might be rules to the first transcribers ? alas poor imagining man , they that were ministers not of the letter , but the spirit , were not so full of care , as ye are , and as ye ( measuring the enlargednesse , and copiousnesse of others , by your straitned , narrow , sca●ty selves ) conceive they were , about such emptinesse , as copies of what they wrote , transcripts , texts , tittles , points , i●ta's , v●wels , accents , and such accidental stuffe , as is not de esse to the kingdom and gospel of it , which they published : if any of them did as once paul did , will that the colossians should let laodicea read what he wrote to them , and read from laodicea what he wrote thither , whether in●a transcript , or the original copy , which might passe between two near sister-churches , who knows ? yet how many copies , and to how many did he give out copies , of what he wrote to particulars , to be transcribed , and kept , and committed to the whole church of god , as a rule for future transcribers , and a rule of faith and obedience , and such like , to all ages of the world for ever ? his first to the corinthians , and to ephesus , and to laodicea , for all his desire it should be read by the colossians , happened to misse your bibles , to be bound and bundled into which i know it was no more intended , then sundry others that are there , which he wrote to particular , and some private persons , about private , particular , and personal affairs ; some wrote more generall epistles to all saints , then in being as peter , iude , iames , iohn , and they might be ( but between might be , and necessarily must be , there 's great difference ) as generally read as they could be , where e're they came , as being of more direct and general concernment to all , as in that capacity of saints ; and some wrote more particularly , as occasion was , and they were moved by the spirit , ( in which they did all that they did at all , and not in the movings of the flesh ) letters to private persons about private matters , as iohns short letter to gaius , and pauls to philemon , and timothy about the bringing of his cloak he left at troas , with carpus : but did either one or t'other of these give out authentick copies of these two private letters to many , to be a rule to the first transcribers , and rules to all saints , to the worlds end : 't is true , they are in your bibles among others , that were got together , and it pleases me well that they are there , and should , if you had all that ever the apostles and prophets wrote , whereof if you have the th . or th . part , it s more then either you or i , or any man now knows , and much it matters not for the certain knowledge of such an uncertain , unprofitable thing , but what of that , will it follow , that these about onestmus his being received into his master philemons service again , and iohn's telling gaius , he would not write more to him now with pen and ink , but hoped to see him shortly , were ever intended by them to be the canon to the church of god in all ages , which must be committed to the care of transcribers , to be successively copied out to a tittle , so that on supposition of any corruption , or change of a letter , in the writing them over , the eternall faith of god would cernally fall to the ground , and the word of god not be preserved fr●m being lost , ( as thou dotest ) much more , if those whole letters or epistles themselves should be lost , then actum est , &c. no other means of discovery , nor recovery of the whole substantial truth , but that would fail together with them ? must those be also submitted to so strictly , that he that should not beleeve every external tittle of the text , there transcribed , to be the word of god ( as thou tellest us ) should be left inexcusable in his damnable unbelief , and be in peril of eternal damnation , and such danger as i. o. dreams , and would draw all men into the dream of , together with him ? scilicet is superis labor est , ea cura quietos sollicitat : as if the saints of old , and they now that live at rest in god , 〈◊〉 witness god dwelling in them of a truth , had nothing to do but belabour ●hemselves , and cumber one anothers minds , as our wife clergy does , who are wearied in the greatnesse of their way , and are mole ruentes sua , as suis & ipsa a roma viribus ruit , with continuall wrestlesness , and as endless , as easelesse care and thought of a e i o u tittle , and such nugacyties as these , that are ●atcht in i. o's head piece : whom i here give to understand , that while they , like the tiberian massorites , at their do-little academies , are so seriously doing of nothing , and as childish in serious things , yet nos nucibus facimus quaecunque relictis . arg. thy fourth is the multiplying copies to such a number , that 't was impossible any should corrupt them all wilfully , or by negligence . rep. nugae ! why impossible to corrupt them all ? if not by wilfulnesse , yet by negligence , was it impossible that there should be variation in tittles and iota's , ( which is corruption with thee ) in them all ? hast thou any more infallible security against the mis-transcription of them all , then thou hast against the mis-transcription of some onely ? surely a man well in his wits would have argued thus : it was possible to every individual of the copies to be mis-transcribed through negligence , or wilfulnesse , or weaknesse , and against the will , or something of the transcribers ( none of them being any more then fallible ( as thou sayest p. . though never so honest ) therefore it was possible at least , and not impossible , but that they might be all mis-transcribed ▪ and so corrupted . ●●●●●ver might be spoken of every individual copy , as to its lyableness to ●●●●●ation ( caeteris paribus , ) supposing all the remote transcribers to be but f●●lible as well as some ) may be said of all the copies , as well as of any one of them : and if the ability of some transcribers , might be greater then that of other some , yet ( as thou sayest of the translators ▪ p . ) thou having no security of the principles , or honesty of the ablest●●●s them , for what thou knowest , what ere thou thinkest , they might be a'l mis-transcribed , as well as any one , and however seeing thou veildest , som● might be , if all could not , it would puzle thee not a little to d●clare to him that asks thee , which is right and which wrong , and in which possibly the transcribers might be mistaken , and in which it was in ●●ssible they should ●e so , and which do , and which do not agree with the autograph● , none of which are left to correct it by ; there being no more then the apographa now remaining . but assuredly what mistake wa● possible to befall my one of the copies , was not impossible so befall every of them , and so far art thou from denying it to be possible , that some mistakes and v●●iations might befall some copies , for all thy peremptory pronouncing it impossible , that variations should befall them all , in regard of the number of copies that p. . upon that self same account of the multitude of transcriptions , thou pronouncest it utterly impossible , that all the transcriptions should be made without some variations and mistakes ; thy words there being these , ( viz. ) that so many . transcriptions , most of them by private persons , for private use , having a standard of correction in the publike asse●●lyes ready to relieve their mistakes , should be made without some variation , is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or impossible ; o ye ridiculous ringles & round os that i. o. makes and runs in ! he complains of capellus , p. . for asserting variations in all the p●esent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or transcriptions of the old testament , upon meerly uncertain conjectures , yet upon as meerly uncertain conjectures himself asserts , that they are not all corrupted ; yea he sayes ( a he thinks ) that its impossible there should be mistakes and variations in all the transcriptions , and yet that it is impossible but that mistakes and variations should be in many of them . quis legat haec ? min tu istud ais ? quis non ni i nemo . arg. thy fifth , is the preservation of the authentick copies , frist in the iewish synagogues , then in christian assemblies with reverence and diligence . rep , what 's all that in proof , that there 's no variation in copies of the hebrew and greek text , in so ●uch as in tittles and iota's ? if thou couldst prove , as thou dost b●t onely propound it , as thy opinion , that authentick copies were kept with such reverence and diligence downward to this day in christian assemblies , which christian assemblyes ( unlesse thou count upon those of the romish synagogue as such , which onely remained in an outward way of assembling ) were not kept in the posture of constituted christian assemblyes themselves , much lesse then authentick copies of the original text entire in them , for a thousand years , and upward ; but when they were in assemblies they rather look● each at their translated copies their severall mother tongues , then at the hebrew and greek tittles , and iota's , that thou so openly tatlest for with such earnestnesse , as if all divine truth , as to our knowledge thereof , did entirely and eternally depend upon them ; what dribling doings are here for a doctor ? arg. thy sixth , is the daily reading and studying of the world by all sorts of persons ever since its first writing , rendring every alteration lyable to immediate observation and discovery , and that all over the world . rep. what 's this to the purpose ? when was there more reading , and studying the scripture by all sorts , all the world over , and tumbling to and fro to wearisomnesse by the scripture-searching scribes , that never hear gods voice , nor come to christ the light , that they may have life , and more close and curious prying , and critical observing of the points , and vowe●s , & accents ; by syllabical and punctual schoolmen as at this very day , in their academical entercourses , and interchangeable pro and con prate , about punctations , from one nation to another ? yet when more variety then now in the copies of their texts , which the more they dive into the more discovery they make of the diversity of their transcripts ? but the matter is not mended for all that , nor the multiplication of errours and various lections and mistakes of more then tittles , in writings , or printings , and reprintings , and why much reading & study should be a means to prevent mistakes of old , that 's none now , though more forcible then formerly , if any efficacy were in it at all that way , either i have not reason enough to render the reason of it , or rather there is no reason for it at all , and that indeed is the very truth . arg. thy seventh is the consideration of the many millions that looked on every tittle and letter in this book , as their inberitance , which for the whole world they would not be deprived of . rep. what people be those that lookt on every tittle and letter in the bible as their inheritance , which for the whole world they would not part with one tittle of ? for my part , i look upon them as ne'r the wiser for that , if they were as many millions of millions , as thou sayest there are millions of them ; for my part i love the bible as much as i do any book in the world , and upon a true and just account , and in a right way honour it as much as any man does , i. o. himself not excepted , for all his high unjust adorations of it ; and as for the holy truth that 's declared in it , i have bought and paid so dear for that , that no lesse then all that i had in the world , of what sort soever , lust , pleasure , honour , riches , or righteousnesse of mine , is gone for the sake of it , and to have all that ever i lost for it i would not sell it again , yet all the tittles and letters , accents , iota's and points ( which i. o. counts his such a rich possession , p. . ) that are in all the hebrew bibles and greek testaments i have , and i have more than one of each sort ; any one shall have of me for five pound , and lesse money ( and the books themselves to boot ) and that is lesse then the whole world , and yet i shall hope to enjoy not a tittle the lesse of the word of truth , that is therein told , if i sincerely attend to the light the letter calls to , though i should never neither buy nor so much as look into any outward copy of the original text more while i live . and whereas i. o. sayes , p. . somewhat sutably to what he sayes here , that the church of god , doth now , and hath for many ages enjoyed the copies of the original languages , as her chiefest treasure . i say that is one of the chiefest untruths that have been told yet , among those many that he hath treated out of that whole treasury of tales , and vāin thoughts that are in his heart , out of the abundance of which evil treasury his mouth speaketh , and pen bringeth forth evil things : for though the churches of mans constituting , of which i. o. is yet a member , and the ministers of mens making at the vniversities , do now rejoyce in transcripts , copies of the hebrew and greek texts , and iota's and points , and tittles , and such like toyes and trappings , and fruitlesse furniture , as their chiefest treasure , rich possession , and inheritance , which they glory and blesse themselves in , & for the whole world will not he deprived of , knowing that they must be deprived of all their worldly excellencies , if they come once to part with them ; and do cry out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that all truth tumbles to the ground , if any jot and tittle of their original texts , and hebrew punctation fail , and they see no way to be delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all sacred truth , ep. p. . ( in such wise as the antichristian churches did in darker times behind us , and do still in the dark places of their several habitations , count old mouldy latine masse books , and new moulded eng●ish liturgies , letanies , and scottish directories ) meliori ●ute , of a little better mould yet then the other two , a thousand fold before the best of which yet i prefer the scripture directory , whether in its original transcripts , or but translations ) their chief spiritual treasure , crying out , that all true faith , worship , church , word of god , religion , and all is like to be utterly lost , if these be taken away till the remove of which religion was never rightly found . yet the church of god , which is now the some that it was in substance , before any scripture at all was , in rerum natura , both ever did , and doth still count christ the light and life , of whom the letter onely testifies , her chiefest ioy and treasure , luk. . . joh. : and not the outward text that doth but talk of him , much lesse the meer accidental adventitious parts thereof , quae possunt vel adesse vel abesse sine scripturae interitu , which as the whole scripture it self may be either present or absent from without the corruption of the substantial truth or word . but whose treasure the scripture is , or is not , it 's little , yea nothing to i. o's purpose , to prove a non-mis transcription of the scripture : we see i. o. and many millions more , make much of , and more ado , about every tittle and lota of the text , then they need do at this day , and yet , with a non obstante to all that , the variety of lections are a thousand times twice told in transcripts and translations , and if we will believe i. o. p. . frequent insinuations of an infinite number more are yet to be collected . arg. the eighth , as to the old testament in particular , is the care of ezra and his companions , in restoring the scripture to its purity , when it had met with the greatest tryal that ever it underwent in this world , considering the paucity of copies then extant . rep. ezra and his companions care was as great no doubt , as mans could well be in that case , but ultra posse non est esse , they could do no more then they could do , as to the restoring the purity of the scripture when corrupted ( and that 's questionable , whether they restored it so perfectly , as not to leave out some tittles or iota's , yea and whole books too , because they could not find them , witnesse all those forenamed whole prophecies that are wanting ) but what if their endeavours had succeeded so , as to set all to rights as perfectly and exactly to a tittle , as 't was at first giving our ▪ might it not as likely , and much more be corrupted , vitiated , altered , in points , tittles , and iota's , between ezraes dayes , and now through the many tumbles , catastrophes , revolutions , and greater changes of times and things , then that of the babylonish captivity that have happened , then in the dayes of its so long steady standing , while it was reserved within the bounds and confines of the iewish church onely , and yet here thou intimatest it to have been then exceedingly charged , depraved , and defective , or else how could ezra and his fellows be said to restore it to its purity ? thou art very hard put to it for a proof of the present integrity , and purity of the hebrew text to a tittle , that goest two thousand years backward , asserting that it was restored to its purity then , and thence concluding , that it stands as entire to a tittle now , as then it did ; thou mightst as well have gone a little higher , and argued thus from before ezra , ( viz. ) the hebrew text was at first written by the holy penmen , moses , david , isaiah , and the other prophets truly , and according to the mind of the spirit , therefore it stands so entihe 〈◊〉 this day ; but thou seeing ( for all the iewes great care to keep it , thou makest such an argument of ) it was much corrupted before ezra , therefore beginnest thy account of its integrity to a tittle no higher then him , in whose dayes thou deemest it was , de novo , most perfectly rectified , ad amussim , reckoning rashly ( as thou mostly dost ) and in no wise considering that thou hast no more , but much lesse security against its alteration from ezra downward , to this day ( not knowing what heedlesse hands of carelesse scribes it hath since come under ) then there was from ezra ●●●ards , from the time of its most pure giying out , in which juncture yet it so fell out , that as that which they found of it in ezras dayes , was by thy own confession much corrupted , so not a little of i● was lost altogether : but ( to knock this argument more fully on the head ) thy self confessest that ( as great as the care of ezra was , to restore the text of the old testament to its purity , and to compleat the points ) it hath since then slipt so far out of order , that as to the points according to the iewes general faith , it received a great reviving , and restoration to their right , and knowledge by the massorites , when they had been much dis used , quoting r. azarias in proof of it . p. . . and so hast routed thy own argument with thy own hands . arg. thy ninth , is this the care of the massorites from ezras dayes , and downwards , to keep perfect and give an account of every syllable in the scripture , citing buxtorfius . rep. here thou supposest thou puttest in sufficient security for its non-alteration in a tittle to this day , but of the massorites care if i doubt , thy word and buxtorfs are not a ground to beget a divine faith in me , or another about it , who are bold in imposing your own conjectures ; but if i own them to have been as carefull as thou conceivest them to be , yet in the dayes of those before ezra who were as careful as these could be , it came not-off without losse , much lesse is it likely it did to this day , if those massorites before christ had been ten times more careful then they were , forasmuch as thou rendrest both iewes and papists , between which two sorts of men the hebrew text hath been reserved to this day , both of them generations of men so hardned in hatred against the truth , as not to be worthy to be counted faithful trustees about the scriptures , besides as i said to the argument last above , thy self grantest the points so have been dis used , so as to have been rectified by the tiberian massorite , years since christ. arg. thy tenth , is the constant consent of all copies in the world , so that on sundry learned men have observed there is not in the whole mishna , gemara , or either talihud , any one place of scripture found otherwise read , then it is now in our copies . reply . what a piece of idem per idem is this , wherein the self same thing that is to be proved , is argumentatively urged in proof of it self ? the thing to be proved is , that there is a constant consent in all the copies of the hebrew text in the world , so that there is no copies read otherwise in any one place then ours , or that do vary from ours in one letter , apex , tittle , or iota ; to prove this the medium , i. o. uses is this , ( viz. ) the constant consent of all copies in the world , without any variation in any one place ; i say here is not so good as ignotum per aeque ignotum , but idem per idem , the same proved by the same ; the thing affirmed evinced by affirming it ore again : siccine di putant academici nostrates ? many an acute academian would answer no otherwise to this bald businesse , then by telling , the doctor he is out , and forgets what he hath in hand , bidding him begin again , but such a co●ntrified russet-rabby , as dr. featly sayes the apron-levites are , and such a rustick respondent as i am must submit , and take it as it comes , without much talk , lest i be talkt with for it , therefore i shall do it so much honour as to put it up , and to reply to it , and so passe it by and passe on . . if there be and have been such an universal , constant consent of all copies in the world , and not so much as one hebrew copy read otherwise then in ours , in any one place of the bible ( for so large are thy words , that thou art often fain to pinch them in again ) how is it that so many copies are with points , and so many wholly without any punctation at all ? or if thou say all pointed copies are alike among themselves , and all unpointed ones are alike among themselves , how is it that thou , to the contradicting thy self in this place , confessest various readings in many other ? yet the very three next pages , ( viz. ) . . . are well nigh wholly spent in nothing but concessions , confessions , and acknowledgements , that there are and have been various lections in the very old testament as well as the new , and there thou grantest , that some of those that are thou knowest no more of , ( viz. ) the various readings of the eastern and western iewes , save that they first appeared ( it appears then there are some ) in bombergius his bible , professing thy present ignorance of them , and unwillingnesse for hasts sake , to enquire after them , yet wishing any that know ought of them to inform thee further ( but thou shouldst have informed thy self before thy rash and blind bold assertion , and not say a thing positively , and then say , had i wist , and enquire when thou hast done whether it be so or no ; and moreover thou denyest not , but that more various lections then yet thou knowest , may be gathered out of ancient copies of credit and esteem ; and thou instances in particular , in those called the keri and ketib , which thou makest such a puzling of thy self about , up and down in thy book , that thou vainly spendest one whole chapter ( viz ) the last save one of thy second treatise , to prove them to be of no moment , which yet when all 's done , are varieties from the first manuscripts , at least ( nemine contradicente ) though how they fell out at first none knows , and thou guessest they were gathered by ezra , p. . and grantest that they are the face and appearance of various lections , p. and that they are no lesse in number then . in the bible p. . and that thou art not able to satisfie thy self about the original , and spring of all that variety that is in the bible by reason of them , p. . and th●t unlesse ye should suppose ; ( which yet thou seemest not to dare to do ) that the word was so received fo●m god , as to make both necessary not knowing the true cause of this variety , or difference , between the scription , which is in the love and the lection which is in the margin ye have nothing to blame but your own ignorance , 〈◊〉 being not the onely case , ( and i confess thou speakest the truth in that ) wherein ye have reason so to do ; p. ● . all which , notwithstanding -st the consideration of this to keri , and to ketib , or vast and numerous variety of different scriptions , and lections which are welny in thousands of words , whereof some of them in the margin are supposed to have stood sometimes in the line , being most groundedly conjectured to be no other then meer critical amendment , of the iewes , should , together with the supposition and suspicion that is now begotten in the minds of many learned ones , impeach that security which thou supposest at least thou hast of the mind of god truly represented to thee in thy crooked copyes , and so a door be opened ( as it is already not more to curious pragmatical wits , then plain , honest , truth telling , downright dealing , upright - hearted , light loving souls , to overturn this ticklish foundation , and all that thy simply supposed certainty of a true entire , and to a tittle exact conformity of this hebrew text of scripture , with that which was pen'd by immediate motion , p. . and so seem to der●gate from the universality of this rash hasty assertion , concerning the preservation of the original copies thereof to this hour , in every point , tittle , and iota , . thou bestirrest thy self what thou canst thorough the whole chapter aforesaid , in vindication of the said universality and verity of thy arch assertion by diminishing this vast variation that is in the keri and ketib , from the first manuscripts , into a very little matter , too vain to be at all counted upon , as a various lection they are of so small weight and importance ; though i must here tell thee . i. o. that of as small moment and importance as thou makest both these of keri and ketib , as well as all the other varieties that thy self are sain to confesse to , ( viz. ) those of ben asher , and ben nepthali , those of the oriental and occidental iewes , those called correctio scribarum , or the amendment in places of some sma●l apiculi ( as thou diminutively stilest them to salve the credit of thy exquisitely crude expression of thy self often by the term of apices , and every apex &c. p. . . ) and those called ablatio scribarum , or a note of the redundancy of vau in five places , o thou that art tossed to and fro , and yet thou seemest with the superstitious iewes to hold a copy to ' e corrupted , or prophaned , if but one letter be but wanting or redundant sometimes , ( viz. ) p. . ) yet the least of all these are of weight and importance enough ( for all thy summary saying of them all together , p. . . they are varieties in things of lesse , indeed of no importance ) to knock thy principal position on the head , and ( howbeit thou sayest , not in the least p. . ) in the least , at least , to impair the truth o thy arch assertion that every tittle and letter of the outward text ( which thou till stilest the word of god ) remaines in the copies preserved by the merciful providence of god for the use of his church to this day ; and i must tell thee moreover , that the more thou stirrest in defence of the universal verity of that thy unwarrantable and utterly untrue assertion , the more it stinks and that rankly too , not onely of unreasonable rashnesse , and real falshood , but also of a meer diotrephetically impudent and impositively prating spirit in thy self , that rather then recant one rashly assented absurdity , will run into a thousand , to offer so peremptorily to persist in t , unlesse thou couldst speak more to the purpose then thou yet hast done , or ever art like to do in proof thereof , in that universality , rigidity , and strictnesse wherein thou statest it . and as to those of the keri and ketib in particular the utmost thou sayest in all that chapter wherein thou art wholly taken up about them whereby to refell the force of what falls heavily on thy arch assertion thence from by such as urge it , to the evincing of variety of lections from , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or primitive text , is as strong as stubble it self to stand against it , with ; and of no more force then foam and fro●b to resell it . for fi●st p. . thou sayest all the difference in these words , that is the . words of the keri and ketib , is in the consonants , not at all in the vowels . rep. in which saying thou givest thy whole cause , for if there be little lesse then a thousand words now in the hebrew text , differing in the transcripts , in their consonants from what they were , as written in the first manuscripts , what need any more to prove against thee , that there are various lections , and that in more then in tittles , iota's , vowels , accents , points , and apices ( in the least of which yet if variation be proved , it disproves the universality and verity of thy great assertion of identity to a tittle ) and what need the authors of that insinuation ( over whom thou crowest upon thy own dunghill , and triumphest before thy time , p. . ) produce the least testimony ( as thou falsly affirmest they cannot ) that there hath been in the world some copy of the bible differing ( mark thy words ) in the least from those we now enjoy , or that those ye have are corrupted ? thou i. o. provest it against thy self to their hands ; yea that the consonants themselves are greater matters then points and apices , and of more importance with thy self is intimated by thee , p. . in the eye of any ordinary reader a yet thou thy self assertest , p. . that . words are found different from what they were at first writing , in no lesse then the very consonants , what need we then any further witnesse , since we our selves have so much confessed out of thy own mouth , or rather extant under thy own hand ? and what need the authors of this insinuation prove their assertion in answer to thy confident universal challenge of them so to do , p. . saying , let them prove that there was ever in the world any other copy of the bible differing in any one word from those that we now enjoy tu dicis , thy self i. o. sayest it , that there are differences from the fi●st copies , that were writ●by the inspi el authors , and that of many sorts , what needst-thou say let them produce one testimony , one author of credit , iew or christian , that can or doth , 〈◊〉 did speak one word to this purpose , let them direct us to any relike , any monument , any kind of remembrance of them , and not put us off with weak conjectures , upon the signification of one or two words , and it shall be of weight with us , is it meet that a matter of so huge importance , called into question by none but themselves , should be cast and determined by their conjectures ? doth they think men will part with the possession of truth upon so easie terms , that they will be cast from their inheritance by divination ? bona verba quaeso , possession of any thing that 's counted an inheritance , i confesse is eleven points of twelve , and they that are in it commonly count that truth and right is on their side right or wrong , and the more ado and harder task they have , who have to do with them to storm them out , but as the case here stands , it 's no great matter , sith i. o. the possessour fights for us against himself . art thou an author of credit thy self i. o. whose testimony may be taken for truth ? wilt thou believe thy self if not others ? i confesse as thou sayest p. . of the romane harlot , the common fate of lyars hath so befallen her , for lying mostly in many things she professeth , that she deserves not to be believed when she talks the truth , p. . so i may say of thee , though i believe thee when thou speakest truth , yet thou utterest so many untruths , that thou scarcely deservest to be believed when thou tellest the truth : but yet if thou be of any credit with thy self , and thou wilt but take thy own word , then we are well enough , and have wherewith to answer thy challenge , having thy self in the self same book we have here to do with , speaking more then one word at least , and that 's enough ( ad bominem ) to this purpose , viz. that there was in the world a copy of the bible different from what we now enjoy in one word at least ( and that 's in more then tittles , which thou , who art callidus , more then callidus in thy re frigida contendest for ) sith the keri and ketib , those . words which are confest by thee to vary in their consonants , from what they should be written with , if what is in the margin were in the line , are confest by thee not to have been so from the beginning , which if not , then , there was once a copy different from what we now enjoy , but of this thou wilt hear more from us by and by . secondly , p. . thou sayest , the difference in the sense taken in the whole context , is upon the matter very little , or none at all ; at least each word both that in the margin , & that in the line yield a sense agreeable to the analogy of faith . rep. here thou mendest thy bad cause as well as one can well do , that makes it two-fold worse then 't was before ; for if there be welnigh a thousand words , not onely different in consonants ( which is greater then that of tittles ) but also such as makes the least difference in the sense of the spirit , which ( how many so e're the text may bear ) is acknowledged by all ( but your selves that make many ) to be but one alone ever to one word or place , then thou thy self overturnest that certainty and identity of not onely the text it self thou so loudly contendest for , but also , in some measure , of the truth it self contained therein , which we say is eternally entire , let the text run which way it will ; but thou here art forced to confesse , that in the keri and ketib , there 's not onely a variation in words , but also thereby in the very sense it self . and though thou wouldst fain mend it when thou hast done , by mincing the matter , making as if the context considered , the difference in the sense is upon the matter very little , and agreeable , either way to the analogy of faith ( as ye often speak , whereby if not blinded ye might see , how , for all ye call the scripture your rule of faith , yet ye more serne the scripture into the sense of a suitablenesse to your modern devised model of faith still , then suit and model your faith according to the true sense of the spirit and mind of christ in the scripture ) yet that 's a meer false seeth and ●●gment of thy own , for in some places there arises from the keri and ketib a very vast variety , not to say clear contrariety in the sense ; such as , if the context be consulted with , is consistent with the faith but one way onely , and not the other ; and sith thou puttest it to the tryall , by the variety of those two words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which are the same in sound , yet most distinct in their significations , and so , of all the varieties that are of this kind , seeming to thee of the greatest importance ; of which it is observable that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whose signification is [ not ] is fourteen or fifteen times put in the text or line instead of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whose signification is [ to him or it ] which is set in the margin : i am willing to be tryed by that very variety that is of thy own naming the better to satisfie thee . and whereas thou sayest , that though these seem contrary one to the other , yet wherever this falls out , a sense agreeable to the analogy of faith ariseth fairly from either word , instancing in some places picke out by thee for thy own purpose : i say if it do hold , it s not worth a pin , or point , to the proof of what thou sayest , if in any one of those fourteen or fifteen places it appear to the contrary ; and that it does , let me be so bold ( fith thou instancest in two that are fittest for thee ) to instance but one that , makes against thee , and then , i shall trouble my self no more with thy keri and ketib , which would make one , if not sick , yet at least sorry , for thee to see how sorrily thou shifts by it : isa. . . thou hast multiplyed the nation , not encreased the joy , say the ketib , or word in the text , but the keri or word in the margin is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ to it ] which marginal reading ( though translators following the mistake of the mis-transcribers keep to the ketib ) is undoubtedly the true and onely sense of the spirit , for the reading in the line , as it is in both transcripts and translation , is ( considered with the context ) a piece of meer non-sensicall contradiction ; thou hast encreased the nation , not encreased the ioy , they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest , as men rejoyce when they divide the spoil ; what a jarre does the word [ not encreased the ioy ] make in the sense of that verse ; yea it makes it meet confusion and contradiction , to say the joy is not enlarged , and yet it is enlarged like to that of men that rejoyce in harvest , and at the dividing of the spoil ; but read it by the keri 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ to it ] thus , ( viz ) thou hast multiplyed the nation , thou hast encreased joy to it , or its joy , they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest , as men rejoyce when they divide the spoil ; and then there 's no discord in the sound , but it s all sweetly sutable and harmonious , and agreeable to the analogy of the true faith also . arg. thy eleventh is , the security we have that no mistakes were voluntarily or negligently brought into the text , before the coming of our saviour , who was to declare all things , in that he not once reproves the iewes ●n that account , when yet for their false glosses on the word be spares them not . and this argument is urged o're again p. interrogatively thus , ( viz. ) can it be once imagined , that there should be at that time such notorious varieties in the copies of the scripture through the negligence of that church , and yet afterword neither our saviour nor his apostles take the least notice of it , yea doth not our saviour himself affirm of the word that was then among them ( scripture with thee ) that not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , should passe away or perish ? rep. . leave calling christ thy saviour , ( as thou often dost ) till thou witnesse thy self saved by his grace from thy being a servant to sin , as thou art so long as thou committest it , or dost either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or which is all one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and commit it thou dost and must while thou livest , while thou believest no perfect remission , or full freedom from the commission of it in this life ; and must in the life to come too , while thou believest no purging there neither ; for thy calling him thy saviour while thou art thus in thy sin , is no more accepted of him , then when thou callest him lord , lord , yet dost not the things that he sayes , and that is as little as if thou saidst nothing . . varieties and mistakes might befall the scriptures , thy self elsewhere confessest , p. , , . through the invincible infirmity of mens failings and fallibility in such a work as transcribing the best things , and through meer weaknesse , when through neither wilfulnesse , nor negligence , nor unfaithfulnesse , and so passe as unreproved , as they are in that case unreprovable . . there might be mistakes of that nature through the scribes wilfulness and negligence , perverting scripture , and those reproved by christ too , and his apostles also , and thou ne'r the wiser , there being many things truely , that iesus did and spake , that were never written in those histories of him ye have , and that his apostles did , and spake , that are not written by luke in the acts , nor in their epistles , the which if they should be written every one , the world it self would not be able to contain them , among which , that such a reproof was not one , is more then thou knowest ; though thou wilt vent thy verdict very vainly ond positively still at a venture . . if there were not one mistake or corruption through mis-translation in the scripture before christs time , hath there not been time enough for some sailing to fall out in it , since that time which is , years since , in some one point , apex , accent , tittle , or iota ? what security hast thou against such a thing , not knowing , but as thou wilt be guessing , and thinking , what wicked , careless , and unskilful hands it hath since past under ; or rather knowing , that by iewes and papists it hath been much vitiated . . christ and his apostles , in their often quoting scripture out of the old testament , kept to the substance and sense of the words , not alwayes to the text , in totidem verbis , verbatim , or to a tittle , isa. . , , , , . rom. . rom. . . which shews that they minded the substance of the matter , and not as ye do the empty figure of the outward letter in every trivial tittle , point , and iota of it . . however , i do not understand this argument any more then thou that thou speakest on , p. . christ reproved no such mistakes as mis-transcribing the scriptures , through wilfulnesse or negligence years since , therefore it is not mis-transcribed in one point , apex , iot , or tittle , to this very day . arg. thy twelfth is this , ( viz. ) after christ the watchfulnesse which the two nations of iewes and christians had alwaies upon one another , with sundry things of like importance to this purpose , which might he insisted upon . rep. here 's the rereward of the whole foregoing regiment , and rout of red coat reasons , that make a mighty shew a great way off , as they lye all together in leagure against the truth ; so that one would take them as first glance to be of some great worth or weight to the matter in hand , but when one beholds them nigher hand , behold they are a parcell of ragged , torn , thred bare tatterdimallions , that are scarce able well to stand on their legs they are so weak and wanting . and as for this last poor , wretched , miserable blind and naked argument , that marches in the rear , it is so lame , and tired , and decrepid , and halts so pitifully after his fellows , that it 's in a manner pity to meddle with it , for what importance soever i. o. judges it to be of , i see it's importance to be so little to his purpose , as to evince every tittle of his transcribed text to be as true as at first writing , that it can scarce well carry it self clear away , much lesse import any great matter of danger , or do any considerable execution toward the offending of the truth here defended , or in defence and vindication of i. o's famously false assertion of the entirenesse of the outward text of the scripture to this day , in every word , letter , consonant , vowel , point , apex , tittle , and iota , as 't was at first given out by the hands of the inspired penmen of it ; that though more then need might soon be replyed against it , yet i shall say nothing to it at all , but make it a passe , and let it even go quietly again from whence it comes . chap. vi. thus far as to i o's twelve arguments , the rest of his proof of the entirenesse of his text is made up of sundry sorts of considerations , weak wottings , and pidling putations : all which kind of miscellaneous munition , i shall here give the reader an account of , together with some such observations and animadversions , as it 's meet should be made thereof ; and then come to expostulate with i. o. about the whole case in hand , and to set some of our surer grounded [ shall we thinks ] against silly shallow [ shall we thinks ] as he infers , & winds up his crazy conclusion withall , and leave all that read them to their liberty to think of them what they please . such brittle businesses , such starch , straw , and slubbly stuffe as i. o. stiffens and strengthens his strict assertion with a parte ante , and his above named body of arguments , for the certainty and infallibility of the right writing of every tittle and iota of the text of this day , according to the first immediate writing thereof from god , in both the old testament and the new , is as followes . i. o. for the first transcribers of the original copies , and those who in succeeding ages have done the like work from them , whereby they have been propagated and continued down to us , in a subserviency to the providence and promise of god , we say not ; as is vainly charged by morinus , and capell●s , that they were all or any of them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , infallible and divinely inspired , so that it was impossible for 〈◊〉 in any thing to mistake . rep. if ye can't say that , that they were infallible and divinely inspired in their work , ye can say nothing at all , that at all reaches your purpose , or pretended proof of your so absolutely asserted certainty and infallibility of the entirenesse of your transcribed text , and answerablenesse of it 〈◊〉 every tittle and iota to the original text of the penmen , which answerablenesse if ye prove not , and that infallibly too , and by more then your own meer guesses and conjectures , your universal positive assertion can ap●●ar to be no more then a supposition , and then , vobis ipsis cons●●entibus ; your own selves acknowledging no lesse , you have no sound assurance what ground ye stand on ; for the stresse of all sacred truth is by i. o. put upon the true transcription or mis-transcription of the greek and hebrew text , which if not entire to a tittle and iota , p. . , . upon any corruption supposed in the writing ( and that may very well ( not to say must be supposed ) if all the transcribers , even the first as well as the latter , cannot be supposed to be as infallibly guided in transcribing , as the holy men were in the first writing ) there is no means of rectifying , or recovering , or of discovering , or determining , or judging of truth any other way : and so thou givest upon a matter thy whole cause , in granting the whole series of transcribers , and race of writers to this day , to be but fallibly guided ; and thy most perfect , infallible , stable ; and to a tittle true touch-stone , rule , standard , foundation falls all to the ground , as a mere falible , uncertain , questionable basis to build so mighty a bulk upon , as thou dost ; according to not others knowledge onely , but also thy own acknowledgements and confessions . i. o. religious care and diligence in their work , with a due reverence of him , with whom they had to do , is all we ascribe unto them . not to acknowledge these freely in them , without clear and unquestionable evidence to the contrary , is high uncharitablenesse , impiety , and ingratitude . this care and diligence we say , in a subserviency to the promise and providence of god , hath produced the effect contended for . nor is any thing further necessary thereunto . on this account to argue ( as some do ) from the miscarriages and mistakes of men , their oscitancy and negligence in transcribing the old heathen authors , homer , aristotle , tully , we think it not tollerable in a christian , or any one that hath the least sense of the nature and importance of the word , or care of god towards his church , shall we think that men who wrote out books , wherein themselves and others were no more concerned , then it is possible for men to be in the writings of the persons mentioned , and others like them , had as much reason to be careful and diligent in that they did , as those who knew and considered that every letter and tittle that they were transcribing , was part of the word of the great god , wherein the eternal concerament of their own souls , and the souls of others did lye . certainly whatever may be looked for from the religious care and diligence of men , lying under a loving and careful aspect from the promise and providence of god , may be justly expected from them who undertook that work . rep. of the loving and careful aspect , and promise and providence of god , and how little he stands by any promise engaged , to preserve outward tittles ( as thou ●atlest ) i have spoken not a little before : but if that were as true as thou sayest it is , and as it is indeed most false that god were so engaged in order to the safe guarding his word and church , to save every tittle of your priests transcribed texts , does not his love and care of his word and church as strictly call for his careful aspect over the peoples translated texts , and bind him in his providence ( according to the supposed promise ) to watch over and direct the translators in translating for the use of his church , but few of which can read your original texts , as well as the transcribers in transcribing ? which translators if they happen to be one the church , ( sa●ing that she must take some of her clergies words for infallible truth , and as the sole foundation of her divine forth about the integrity of the text ) is out also , and hath nothing but uncertainty it self , even the uncertain fallible conjectures of ( spiritually ) unskilful scholars to trust to , about the foundation of her salvation . neverthelesse thou wilt by no means allow that the translators lay under the same loving aspect , who had as much to do with god , and as religious a care and diligence in their work , as transcribers had in theirs , with a due reverence of him with whom they had to do ; yea not to acknowledge these freely in them ( which is the utmost thou darest ascribe to the others ) without clear and unquestionable evidence to the contrary , is as high uncharitablenesse and ingratitude ( by how much their pains was the greater of the two ) as not to acknowledge the same in the transcribers : the care and diligence of which said translators yet , who must be supposed to be as much in a subserviency to that thy supposed promise and providence of god ( i say ) hath no more produced the effect thou contendest for , ( i. e ) the entire agreement of their copies to a tittle with the first originals , thou that of the transcribers hath done , which hath not produced the said effect so exactly as thou dreamest . it is enough to make a wise man wonder ( but that sapiens miratur ●ibil , because he expects no other then solly to proceed from the foolish wisemen of this world ) to see how thou settest thy transcribers up on high , yet grantest them not to be infallibly guided of god neither who , if he had no higher way to expresse his love to his word and church , then by saving every tittle of thy transcripts from alteration or corruption , could as easily have guided the transcribers infallibly as fallibly , and more easily too , since his spirit guides none fallibly so far as i know ) and statest thy transcribers under the loving and careful aspect , promise and providence of god , in all they did in their work about thy greek and hebrew copies , from whom yet no more may be expected justly then from translators in the undertaking of their work ; for translators did consider what every letter and tittle that they were translating was , as well as transcribers did , what every letter and tittle and iota was , they were transcribing , and to argue them to be as oscitant , neglective , and mis-carrying , and mistaking , as those that translated heathen authors is as intolerable ( ad ●ominem ) i speak this , for else i own it , tolerable enough so to argue , of both transcribers and translato●s of scripture , for such as transcribed and translated heathen authors and their work as well as they could , and such as transcribed and translated scripture could do no more , and were , thy self confessing , no more infallible nor infallibly guided then they , onely a kind of care in them , and in god over them , which amounts not to his special spiritual guidance thou tellest ● ) i say as intollerable as thou sillyly sayest it would be to argue from the ●citancy , and negligence , miscarriages and mistakes of transcribers of heathen authors , to the like in the scripture transcribers . but as for translators thou pullest them down , and depressest them into a condition of as great carelesness and negligence , and under as carelesse neglect of god , toward , them in their work , as thou statedst the other in great care and diligence and under a careful aspect and providence of god towards them in theirs ; saying on this wise , p. . of translators ( viz. ) the translators own indivertency , negligence , ignorance ( for the wisest seenetial ) is one among i●merable other reasons to be assigned of their variations from the original ; as if there were neither inadvertency , negligence , nor ignorance in transcribers , but they , without being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , were so wise as to see all , and had nothing but all 〈◊〉 diligence , and no such weaknesses translators had . and again , p. . of the syriak translation on this wise ; it was made 〈◊〉 get i know neither when , nor by whom , in sundry places following another corrupt translation , having passed through the hands of men ignorant ( thou knowest who they were , yet callest them ignorant ) and suspicious against whose , frauds and folly ye have no relief , and thou questionest whether it may be esteemed of any great use or importance , as to the end enquired after : as if the self same might not be said of thy transcription as if thou knewest exactly when , and by whom they were made , and that they followed 〈◊〉 corrupt copies in any places but all pure ones , and were known to thee to have past thorough the hands of men neither ignorant nor suspicious , as ●if thou hadst all the relief and 〈◊〉 in the world of all thy transcribers integrity and honesty from ezra and from christ to this very day , and that they were men that had neither fraud nor holly , whereas most if not all 〈…〉 of the hebrew copies have been made by the iewes , against whom when 〈…〉 thy turn in any point so to do , thou talkest as if there were nothing in the world but 〈◊〉 , iniquity , and , as to the scriptures , fraud and jolly felt in the very 〈◊〉 of them and as if it were not to be questioned , but that al the copier that thou are pleased to esteem 〈◊〉 ( and no other ) were 〈…〉 to be esteemed of so great 〈…〉 as to be canonized , as the 〈…〉 to the whole world , which is the end of the transcribed copies of the originals now enquired after . and again , p. of the chaldee paraphrase this , ( viz. ) seeing it hath 〈◊〉 under any peculiar care , and merciful providence of god , whether innumerable faults and 〈◊〉 as it happened , with the 〈◊〉 , may not be got into it , who can tell as if thou couldst tell what and which transcriptions and translations have lain under that thy so 〈◊〉 on loving , aspect , peculiar care , and merciful providence of god , so as to be exempted from faults and errou●s , besides the primitive copies , and which have not ; who told thee , but thy own rambling , roving , and conjectural fancy that these have and those have not ? yet beu quam praecoci ingenie , how hastily dost thou both take and give it out for granted here , that such , namely the chaldee paraphrase , and the septuagint translations god had no regard to help the translators in , and as for some and those sundry transcriptions too of original copies when they like thee not , and are such as are not concordane with thy favour'd darlings ; how dost thou set them at thy heels , p. . . as corrupt novell transcripts , though of two or three hundred years , or elder , and as consonant , for ought thou knowest by any thing , but tradition , to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which are not now in the world , for thee or any to correct or try by , as some thou so much settest by ? but the vulgar copy ye use thou callest ( by tradition onely received from thy forefathers , and so upon no truely divine but humane account , if it be the truth ) the publike possession of many generations , and that which upon the invention of the art of printing was in actual authority throughout the world , with them that used and understood that language ( an implicitly confident , broad , blind , bold speech , yet like thy self ) as far as any thing appears to the contrary ( that was well put in however , if thou hadst added ( to i. o. ) at the end of it ) yea this thou very imperiously and impositively givest the word of command for the canonizing and authorizing of , saying let that passe then for the standard which is confessedly ( in foro privatae tuae phantasiae saltum ) its right and due . thus king of babylon-like among men , so i. o. majestically behaves himself among the many transcribed and translated copies of the scripture ; authorizing and dis - franchising which he pleases , and as the other with persons , so i. o. with patterns of the text , patronizes as he lifts , dan . . which he will he slayes , which he will he keeps alive , which he will he sets up , and which he will he puts down ; and if he be askt why this and not that is under gods careful aspect ? stat pro ratione voluntas . . and whereas thou sayest that the transcribers care and diligence in subserviency to gods promise and providence hath produced that effect thou contendest for , ( viz. ) the entirenesse of the text to a tittle at 't was at first , dost thou not say this as thou dost twenty things more , meerly on thy own head ? and if that have produced that effect , why doth not the same cause produce the same effect in all transcribers , as well as such onely whose work thou settest the crown on ? and in translators as well as transcribers ? seeing thou hast no more security of the ability , faithfulnesse , honesty , care , and diligence , of such whose transcriptions thou talkest up , then of such whose transcribed and translated copies thou talkest down , as altered , varying from the first originals , and apparently corrupt ; neither canst thou charge the one more then i can the other justly ( though unjustly thou wilt be doing so ) with inadvertency , carelesness , and negligence , they being all alike unknown to each of us ; yet thou ownest the transcriptions of some such as spurious by superfluity , and redundancy of unnecessary , and deficiency of necessary words , as corrupt , p. . . and such like ; all which proves against thee variety in copies too ( but that thou wilt not see it ) in points , tittles , and iota's at least which variety ( if any at all ) cannot be in lesse matters then these . . and though thou sayest not any thing further then the said religions care and diligence of scribes is necessary to the said effect of identity with the first copy to every iota and tittle , without infallible guidance from gods spirit , dost thou say that in earnest ? if thou dost , i say in earnest , thou well knowest not what thou sayest ; for let there be never so much honesty fidelity , care , and diligence used , yet unlesse there be an infallible guidance , or writing by that immediate inspiration , which thou ascribest to the holy penmen but denyest and darest nor ascribe to thy first transcribers , the mind and , will of god ( if i. o. be to be believed when he speaks against himself ) is not represented to thee ( as thou sayest it is , p. . ) without the least interveniency of such mediums and waies as were capable to give change or alteration to the least iota or syllable , without the least mixture or interveniency of any medium obnoxious to fallibility , ( as thou sayest it is : p. . ) for in the very next words p. . . thou utterest enough to the confutation of thy self in this , while , ( according to thy wonted manner of running round as one borrendo percussus scotomate ) thou sayest the wisdom , truth , integrity , knowledge , and memory of the best of all men , is obnoxious to fallibility , and consequently ( say i ) capable to give change in the most careful transcription that can be made by mans hands , that is uninspired , in much more then the least iota or syllable ; thus art thou contrary to thy self still . . but i say for all thy reasonlesse rounds , and self contradictory conceits , more then transcribers care and diligence is necessary thereunto , ( i.e. ) to the producing of copies infallibly conformable in every tittle , iota , and point to those of the first penmen , and to the begetting of the divine faith ( which is more then meer humane fallible perswasion ) that thou oughst to have about the soundnesse , universal incorruption , certainty , integrity , invariablenesse and infallibility of that thou callest thy foundation , even that immediate manutenentia dei , or undeceivable direction and divine inspiration of god , which if it be wanting ( as thou confessest it was from the first to the last of thy transcribers ) such is the weaknesse of men , where never so much carefulnesse is in transcribing of books , that there may be miscarriages and mistakes , which if , there be in the least iota or syllable , it 's great enough to lay thy universal grand assertion to the ground , and all thy proof of it from the foresaid care and diligence will prove not worth a pin to thy purpose . but alas what do i talk of weaknesse , where either the leading of the spirit of god is wanting , or a willingnesse in men to be led by the holy spirit , as it is in all that assert ( as thou dost ) his infallible guidance to be gone out of the world in these dayes ; there 's not onely much weaknesse to such a weighty work as thou makest the transcribing the scripture to be , but ( as thou sayest , p. . so i in this case about the scriptures ) so much vanity , foolishnesse , falsenesse , unfaithfulnesse , negligence , ignorance , and sloth , love of money ( for which many write at others appointment , being well paid for their plains ) more then of the matters they are writing , as well in scribes as printers of the very scripture it self , carelesnesse , adding , detracting , unsuitablenesse of their spirits , and minds to spiritual things , losse of all remembrance of what they are , and what they do , &c. that i can give very little credit to what i have nothing but the authority , ability , integrity , wisdom , knowledge , truth , memory , care and diligence of such to rely upon for , without evidence of their being divinely and infallibly guided , which guidance thou denyest to thy scribes ; nor can any wise man groundedly believe any other , but that the books of scripture passing through the hands of many such transcribers , have upon them the marks of their neglects , ignorance , and sloth , and have had ( as hard of belief as thou seemest to be of this ; p. . ) the fate of other books . yea i. o. let me but ask thee this , is that faith thou hast that thy greek and hebrew copies are to a tittle so uncorrupted ( as thou contendest ) a divine faith or a fallible perswasion onely ? if the latter it 's not worth , a figge , if thou have no bettr faith then so , and art not more infallibly assured then so of the infallibility of that which thou callest thy most perfect rule , and infallible foundation : if the former what is it must beget this divine faith in this thing , that there 's not a point nor tittle varying in thy now canon standard or adored copy from the first copy of the text that ever was ? will thy vain confidence , hopes , conjectures , good conceits of thou knowest not what scribes , that wrote thou knowest not when , give thee such a faith or the traditions and authority and testimony of honest men , saying so and so , downward for many generations ? or some infallible ground of certainty , that they were guided to write every word by divine inspiration ? not the first , for thou utterly disclaimest that , as no ground of divine faith about the scriptures , by saying thus , p. . if numbers of men may be allowed to speak , we may have a traditional testimony given to the blasphemous figments of the alcoran . but the constant tradition of more then a thousand years , carried on by innumerable multitudes of men , great , wise , and sober , from one generation to another , doth but set open the gates of hell for the mahometans , and thus , p. . . though i should grant , that the apostles and penmen of the scripture , were persons of the greatest industry , honesty , integrity , faithfulnesse , holinesse , that ever lived in the world ( as they were ) and that they wrote nothing but what themselves had assurance of , as what men by their senses of seeing and hearing , are able to attain ; yet such a knowledge and assurance is not a sufficient foundation for the faith of the church of god , if they received not every word by inspiration , and that evidencing it self unto us otherwise then by the authority of their integrity , it can be no foundation for us to build our faith upon . not the latter , for thou disclaimest that , and darest not ascribe any such thing as infallible guidance , or divine inspiration to thy trustee transcribers : so where the divine faith about the firmnesse of thy foundation it self stands founded , and bottom'd unlesse it be in the bottomlesse pit it self of thy own fancy , he must have more rope to fathom with then i have , that will ever find . wilt thou not then i. o. say of the first transcribers of the scriptures , that the were infallible and divinely inspired ? ( i do not say thou dost ill in refusing so to say , nay rather thou dost very well , and somewhat honestly and ingenuously in that , for indeed we cannot tell , nor say safely that they were so ) but art thou then freely willing in very deed to yeild it to us that they were fallible , and that 't was not impossible for them to mistake ? this grant of thine , we are as free to accept of as thou art to give it , and make good use of it too , not so much against as for thy self ( viz. ) to shew and instruct thee from thence , that there 's rottennesse at the very root of all your religion , and a fearful flaw of fallibility that is in the very foundation of your faith and believing , in which thou sayest ye are built on the writings of the prophets and apostles , t. . c. s. , that so ye may ( which is the worst that we wish you ) come to be better built on a firmer foundation , and both you and your foundation and faith and all may stand fast , and never ( as now ye must do ) fall any more from thenceforth for ever ; even the foundation of the apostles and prophets it self , which was not their writings , for these were not their foundation , nor were given to be ours ; for if they were , then they had been built upon themselves , and we are to be upon them , which is absurd to say , for neither their own preachings nor writings were their own foundation which they were built on , nor are we to build onely upon them , but both they and we upon that which all holy men , were built on from the beginning , before any writing was at all , ( viz. ) christ iesus the light , the corner stone which the blind builders refuse , on whom whoever builds and believes , if he never come to read one tittle of any outward writing , shall assuredly never be ashamed . in this one grant then thou hast given both the qua. and all others thou contendest with no lesse then the very cause thou contendest for ( viz. ) that the scripture or letter is infallibly the infallible word of god , and every letter , tittle , and iota of it also ; one iot or tittle of which can no sooner fail , then heaven and earth can passe away , and that every iota and tittle that was in the outward letter as at first given forth from god by inspiration , is preserved to this very day without corruption , and remains in the copies preserved till now for the use of his church : that the whole scripture entire as given out from god without any losse is preserved in the original copies yet remaining , yea in them all is every letter and tittle : for this is the cause thou hast taken in hand , in which thou wilt find , when once thou awakest , that thou hast hold on the wrong end of the staffe , and these , and much more of the like sort are thy own words and absolute assertions about it , up and down in thy book , t. . c. . s. . t. . e. . s. . . which if they cannot be made good ( so high thou runnest ) but that there be any corruption to be supposed in your present original copies and various lections ( though it be granted by capellus and others , that the saving doctrine remaines sound as to matters of moment ) yet this shall not satisfie nor afford thee relief enough , but thou wilt needs give up all thy cause , as lost ( even further then thy own opponents would have thee ) confessing and professing that all your doctrine is corrupt , not continuing entire , no means of its discovery , nor of its recovery from a lost condition , no means of rectifying it , or determining any thing about it , see t. . c. . s. . . yea so as to yeild your selves to be at such a losse as not to know what ground ye stand on : yea in thy dedicatory epistle , pag. . lay but these two together , first that the points are the invention of the tiberian massorites , which by all thy proofs to the contrary thou leavest as uncertain as thou foundst it , and little lesse then yeild'st that it 's but uncertain that its lawful to gather various lections , &c. and then ( sayest thou ) for my part i must needs cry out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tell me where i must stand , as not seeing any means of being delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all sacred truth , and so thou goest on , desuing to be instructed by such as see through the de●adiations that are likely to ensue on these principles , as one that tremblest to think what will be the desperate consequences of imagining alterations in the points , tittles , and iotaes of your originals , ep. ded . p. . now what the issue will be we leave to god , though some know it , yet thou are too weak to bear the sense of it without amazement , being bottomed no better then upon a quavering bogge , if it should be told thee , yet know it thou wilt when it comes to passe , or if thou canst bear it take it now . fiat justuis aut pereat mundus , the issue ( as dreadfull as it seems to thee who a●t in fearlesse dangers of greater mischiefs , and but dangerless fears of this present object thou so startlest at ) will assuredly be no worse then this as i said above , ( viz. ) that while theeves will fall out true men will come by their good again , & if all the divines in the world be in such digladiations as to draw their daggers against each other about it yet the light , from which your whole letter came , will be turned to , when the letter is found to be but a fallible uncertain rule , as falsified by mens mis-transcriptions and mis-translations , which light is certo certius , vera verius , if ought can be so , even no lesse then infallibility and certainty it self , and that very equity and truth it self , which the letter teaches , and doth but tend to ; and for my part sink thou , and thy fearful fellows , boreling priests and wrangling lawyers , that live altogether on mens lusts , trespasses and sins , of which , when the world comes to the light , and by it to be led into love , honesty , and peace , as there will be no need , so it will be wiser then to be fooled into a feeding of you for feeding them in their fightings , i say sink ye whether ye will , and your quick sandy foundadations together with you , till both your selves and them be swallowed up by that greater glory of the light it self , now arising again upon the world , though they will nor see it ; i know some that stand so fast in this juncture , wherein the old heaven and earth shakes in order to its removing , as to see thousands fall besides them , and thousands at their right hand , yet be out of fear of the fearful fall of the hypocrites coming nigh them : and as it hath never repented me hitherto to see that people that were priestbewildred , and hampered in latine letanies , english liturgies , divine scottish directoryes , falling off from their priests and scribes to the search of scriptures , so it will never repent either my self or many thousands more , that are turned to a true attendance to the light of christ , having witnessed that weaknesse of the letter it self to save the soules of men which the letter it self also bears witnesse to , rom. . to see men fall , according to the councel of the scripture in that behalf , gal. . . ( such a tall is in truth not from , but to the scriptures ) from the scripture it self to the holy spirit . neverthelesse , were i one that did close never so cordially with thee in thy cause about the scripture , yet could i not commend , but most condemne the course in which thou commend'st it to us , for , as if it were not forward enough te fall of it self , thou hastenest to handle it down with thy own hand writing , while thou grantest the very first transcribers of the scripture to be fallible , and also to have erred and failed , though it were but in points , tittles , and iotaes , and in no lesse they could fail , if they fail'd at all ; for is they were fallible , and what they wrote were falsified in the least , then at least thy foundation , which is no other then such transcriptions , is so far false and fallible as they failed ; and so ( contrary to what thou sayest ) in the least at least it impairs the truth of thy arch-assertion , that the whole scripture , and every tittle , and letter , as given out from god , without any losse , is preserved , and remains entire and without corruption in the copies of the originals yet remaining , for sure one tittle , letter , or iota , a thousand to one , may ( if they mistook at all ) be either wanting or redundant ; and if they fail'd , who wrote immediately out of that which was first written by inspiration , then those that transcribed downwards , from that day to this , having none but imperfect copies to write by , might likely fail , so as to make them more , rather then lesse imperfect , for error minimus in principio , is ever major in medio maximus in fine , if the first or second stone stand never so little awry in any building , following that , it will swerve into more and more crookednesse towards the top ; and so what corruptions , crookednesse , alteration , ablations , additions , variations from each other , in more then tittles and iotaes , there may be now in the copies ye have , there being now no autographaes to amend them by , but a bottomlesse pit and endlesse heap of uncertain conjectures , contradictions , scoldings and scottlings among the scribes about it , pro and con , some saying one thing , some another , and the most part they know not what themselves , but as they think and hear from others , who knows save confident i. o. who seldom looks before he leaps , and so knocks the nail on the head , as to hush all the hurries that are about it , and end the controversie , and put it out of all doubt , so far as his helplesse hammer will do it , by first saying positively there is no variation at all ; and secondly , proving it so to be , as infallibly as his fallible conceits can prove so ambiguous a businesse by saying , from more uncertain grounds then his seniors and superiors , viz. doctor iohn prideaux ( as he was called ) luther , capellus , and others say the contrary , that he cannot but conjecture it so to be ; which proof hath as much strength in it as a straw , while thou confessest ( as thou dost ) that religious care and diligence in their work , with a due reverence of him with whom they had to do , is all ye ascribe to the first transcribers , which not to acknowledge in them , is high vncharitablenesse , which care they lying under a loving careful aspect from god , together with the promise of god ( where he promiseth no such matter as thou talkest on ( viz. ) to preserve the letter in all its transcriptions from any alteration , but to put his word into his peoples mouths ) and his providence and care of his church ( to which yet , or to the transcribers of that which was to be her only rule ( as thou sayest ) thou deniest that he yielded his infallible spirit to continue with them ever as their guide ) produces the copies yet extant , and then inferrest thy conclusion to this purpose , ( viz. ) shall we think that men that knew that every letter and tittle they were transcribing , was part of the word of the great god , &c. should should not be more careful and diligent in their work then such as transcribed heathen authors , homer , aristotle , tully , thus to argue we think is not tollerable in a christian ; and to imagine that the same fate hath attended the scripture in its transcription , as hath done other books , which yet i find some learned men too free in granting , seems to me to border on atheism ; i say , while thou sayest but thus , thou sayest no more then what deserves no other answer then this ( viz. ) that to say , confesse , and grant , that the first transcribers of the scripture were not infallible , nor divinely inspired , but fallible , and to ascribe no more to them then a religious care and diligence in their work , and due reverence of god with whom they had to do , and their lying under a loving and careful aspect , from a promise of god ( which was never made infallibly to guide them ) and his providence ( without his divine inspiration and direction ) and yet to conclude that their transcriptions were not attended with the same fate as other books ( viz. ) aristotle , tully ( whose transcribers , out of the reverence they had of those authors , or whoever else engaged them in that work , would be as careful and diligent as they could without doubt , and no men uninspired can be more ) and much more that in their transcriptions , it must not be supposed there was any corruption or variation from the first copies so much as in one letter or tittle in the copies extant at this day ( as i. o. sayes ) seems to me ( and i appeal to all men that are well in their wits to judge of what i say ) such an odde kind of self-confutation , such a parcht up parcel of confusion , such an inconsequent conclusion , as is no lesse , but somewhat more , then atheistical , having not only nothing in it of either god , christ , or the christian , but even not the common reason of a man , and so is intollerable both among christian men , and others , and bordering upon atheism , as all unreasonablenesse doth : yea , i. o. i doubt not as full of oscitancy and negligence as thou wast in the framing of the fabrick of thy book it self , yet the reverence , and respect to thy doctorship , and such like , would oblige the printers of it to as much care and diligence in the doing of it , as they can use at this day who print the bible it self , neverthelesse what miscarriages and mistakes , and what a multitude of errataes ( as there are many printers faults in this of mine ) are at each end of thy two english and latine tractates ? and is transcription by the pen more exempted from errataes then the presse ? which sometimes produces such abominable errours in the bible it self , as would amaze some people that know not the mystery of that art to be liable to mistakes , about the scripturess as well as in other writings , to read the flat falsities , that have been the issue of their failings : yea , the same fate hath attended the scripture at the presse as hath other authors , and why it cannot at the pen i cannot conjecture ; to instance in one that is more grosse then others ordinarily are , rom. . ● . in one edition & impression that i have seen , these words of paul , viz. from ierusalem to illyricum i have fully preached the gospel , are misprinted thus , from ierusalem and round about to illyricum i have falsly preached the gospel of christ ; so that for thee to say the fate in transcriptions and impressions , in which way the scriptures now altogether come forth since printing came up ( for there 's now little or no writing thereof at all ) hath not attended the scriptures , as hath other books , vox sonat haecce deum ? ne hominem sonat hac tua ceri ? as for the rest of those yielding strawes , and weak weapons , wherewith thou standest out pushing and warring on , in vindication of thy assertion , which looses ground more and more , at the tayl of which thou again usherest in thy conclusion , viz. the iewes silly superstitious sayings and doings , which thou minglest with thy own , shall we thinks ; as if thou didst not only justifie and side with them in their absurdities , but also build much , as to the evincing of thy position thereupon , there lacks little to be replyed as to the routing of them , every one that hath any little solidity in him , being easily capable to see and feel the foppicalnesse thereof , yet at least i shall do thee so much right , who perhaps placest more in them then many a wise man would do , as to nominate them . the iewes ( sayest thou , pag. , , , . ) have a common saying , that to alter one letter of the law , is no lesse sin then to set the whole world on fire ; the truth is , they are prodigious things that are related of the exact diligence , and reverential care of the antient jewes in this work ; ben asher spent many years in the careful exact writing out of the bible ; let any consider the things which they affirm to prophane a book or copy , one is , if but one letter be wanting ; and another , if but one letter be redundant ; and shall we think that is writing it they took no more care then a man would do in writing out aristotle or plato ? considering that the word to be transcribed was every tittle and iota of it , the word of the great god , &c. that if any failings were made , innumerable eyes of men owning their eternal concernment to lye in that word , were open upon it to discover it , &c. it is no hard work to prove their care and diligence to have out-gone that of common scribes of heathen authors ; even among the heathen we will scarce think that the roman pontifices going solemnly to transcribe sybills verses , would do it either negligently , or treacherously , or alter one tittle from what they found written ; and shall we entertain such thoughts of them , that knew they had to do with the living god , in and about that which is dearer to him then all the world besides ? let men then clamour as they please , and cry out of all as ignorant and stupid , which will not grant the corruptions of the old testament , they plead , let them propose their conjectures of mistakes crept into the original copies with their remedies , as capellus , we shall acknowledge nothing of this nature , but what they can prove by undeniable and irrefragable instances , which as to any thing done by them , appears upon the matter to be nothing at all . it can then with no colour of probability be asserted ( which yet i find some learned men too free in granting ) namely , that there hath the same face attended the scripture in its transcription as hath done other books : let me say without offence , this imagination seems to the to border on atheism : surely the promise of god for the preservation of his word with his love and care of his church , of whose faith and obedience the word is the only rule require other thoughts at our hands . we adde , that the whole scripture entire , as given out from god without any losse , is preserved in the copies of the originals yet remaining : what varieties there are among the copies themselves , shall be afterwards declared ; in them all we say is every letter and tittle of the word . reply . because the children of the letter , of the old testament , nor of the gospel , the spirit , and the new , are so sortish and senslesse , as to surmise that the bare copies of the letters , and points and tittles , and lo●aes , are dearer to god then all the world besides , so that its a greater sin to mis-transcribe one letter , by either alteration , ablation , or addition , which change by deficiency , or redundancy , may befal the most critical , curious , careful scribe that ever was , does prophan a copy so that it s not the holy scripture ( for prophane and holy , are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) and is as great a sin , and a matter of as much moment as the fi●ing the whole world , and upon such uncircumcised conceits , are men excrementi●ously exact and diligent to very do●age , and careful of pins , points , vowels , accents , tittles , iotaes , apices , and letters of the text , ad extra ( not tantamount to the least of the truths therein contained , no not to so ●uch as tyth , while the law for it stood , of mint , an●is , and commin ) to utter carelesnesse of the grand truths and reverentially respectful to their book , as they were of old to their brazen serpent ( of as divine original , and to as divine an end as the letter is ) to very idolatry , and spending their time in tedious transcribings of every apex , to the very total loss of many years from the more weighty matters of judgement , mercy , righteousnesse , faith , and truth , which the text doth but testifie of , and prodigious to very superstition ; i say , because that blinded generation of men ( viz. ) the iewes , whom sometimes thou seemest to tax for their undue veneration of the letter , and over-weenings of it , pag. . and to set them at nought , as men feeding themselves all their dayes with vain fables , addicted to figments , profoundly ignorant , idolatrous full of foolish contradictious triflings , bewitched with their dunghilly traditions , doing how seriously of nothing , how childishly in serious things , fools , sots , froth , smoke , nothing , whose sayings and doings are no more to be heeded then that of wick'd , blind , mad-men , &c. pag. , , , , , . do so adore the letter , and dote on the tittles of it , must thou needs be foolish , and doting , and sottish , and superstitious , and idolatrous , and so childishly serious in taking up thy time and thoughts so totally and piningly after toyes , and trifles , and iots , and tittles together with them ? vin tu curtis judaeis oppedere , &c. wilt thou sometimes flert at the iewes fancies , and fopperies , and odde conceits , and over-curious carriages of themselves in boyes toyes , and at that which is the fruit of their fidling minds , as not fit to be any other then forgotten , and yet forget thy self so other whiles as to entertain their vain thoughts so as to own them as thine own , and own them as thy grounds and foundations to frame thy arguments upon , so as both ●o think the same with them , and from thence to impose upon the thoughts and faith of others ? for if thou judg them ridiculous , why dost thou alledge them in so serious a case as thou dost ? and if thou justifie them , art thou not one with them ? and because thou think'st , as they so superstitiously think , and from thence thrusts out thy confident conclusions , in that thy wonted interrogative way of shall we think this and that , shall we entertain such thoughts , can it be imagined ? &c. or ( if positively ) then thus , it is not unprobable , it can with no colour of probability be asserted , this or that imagination seems to me to border on atheism , gods promise , &c. require other thoughts at our hands , and such like ; must therefore the children and ministers of the new testament , not of the letter , but of the spirit run a whoring with the dead literatists , back again from the spirit to the letter , from the son to the servant , from the substantial word to the image and copy of it , from the living to the dead , from the eternal , inalterable , incorruptible truth , to the varying , vanishing , perishing tittles of greek and hebrew external texts ; must they that are of the light , and of the day think , and dote , and dream with the light-defying doctors of the night , and of the darknesse ? and because i.o. those point-prizing rabbies , and tittle-trying textmen , and thou with them think so , yet shall we think that every tittle and iota is the word of the great god , and that our eternal concernment lyes in every outward apex of thy canonized copy , and that such an accidental attome is dearer to god then the who●e world besides ? and that every copy of the holy scripture is prophane , if redundant or deficient from what at first writing it was , in one letter , and that 't is more to mistake so as to alter a letter in transcribing a copy of the law , then to burn the whole world ? shall we think that the writers of aristotle & plato , would not for money , or for their credits sake , or something , as most scriveners do in what they undertake , transcribe as exactly as they could ? and shall we think that men uninspired , as thou confessest the scripture transcribers were , could possibly do any more then they could do ? yet ( to entertain the best thoughts of them that may be ) grant their care and diligence to be more then that of common scribes of heathen authors ( to save thee the pains of proving it ) and that à minori ad majus , as the romans would not treacherously mis-transcribe sybills verses , so much lesse would iewes the scriptures , having therein to do with god ; yet shall we think all that transcribed scripture , & translated it too , knew not whom they had to do with as well as some ? yet varieties thou here confessest are in the copies among themselves , and that cannot be but that some of them must differ from the first original , and ( if at all ) in tittles at least , and ( if but so ) its enough to over-turn the universality of thy assertion ; and so what was possible to some ( as mistakes were ) was possible to all , and not impossible to any transcribers ; shall we think then , because thou so thinkest , that there are no mistakes crept into the original copies upon they groundlesse conjecture , that if it be so that any be , all truth it self , fails , as to its certainty , and that without remedy , or relief ? though sufficiently propounded by capellus , and others , to the satisfaction of any , save wild i.o. that 's resolved to hold the conclusion , and is loath to abate of his ( once uttered ) rash assertion , but as it is forced from him by degrees , professing that he will acknowledge nothing of this nature , but what is proved by undeniable and irrefragable instances , which instances also himself gives ; and though he would have others give heed to his own improbable probabilities , yet is adeo infeliciter stupidus ut nulla ratione neque experentia erudiri possit , quasi tamen ipse solus superer vana perswasione sideratus , in contemptu omnium audaciter persistit , cum comico illo clamans , dicat quod quisque volet ex hâ● opinione non dimovebimur . etenim , si seniorum suorum , cap. j.p. testimonium , seu experientia ipsa ullius apud eum ponde●is effe● aut momenti , scripturae lectiones & transcriptiones esse vari●s negare verecundaretur , ex. . sect. . i. e. so unhappily , irrefragably stupid himself , as not by any reason or experience to be instructed , but ( as if he alone must impose ) possest it with a vain perswasion pertinaciously proceeds in contempt of all men ; crying out with the comedian , let every one say what he will , we will never be removed from this opinion ; for if the testimony of his seniors , capellus , i.p. or experience it self , were of any weight , or moment , he would blush to deny that there are various lections and transcriptions of the scripture . shall we think , because i.o. so speakes ( a● he thinks ) that it can with no colour of probability be asserted , though learned men ( as is confest ) do confesse it , that the same fate hath attended the scripture in its transcription as hath done other books ? shall we think ( because i.o. saith it so seems to him ) that so to imagine , and so on deliberation to assert , borders on atheism ? shall we think , and conclude ( because i.o. concludes so in his thoughts ) that the whole scripture entire , as given out from god , even every letter and tittle , without any losse , is preserved in the copies of the originals yet remaining ? shall we think ( because i.o. without the least colour of sense , reason , certainty , or probability , thinks so ) that the promise of god , for the preservation of his word , and his love and care of his church fails utterly , if one iot or one tittle of the outward text fails , so as to be mistaken in the transcribing ? surely if so , it fails as much through the failings that are in translations ( not without his permission ) for his word and church , as to her knowledge of it ( if the letter were the only way to know it now ) are as much concern'd in the right translation , as transcription , yet i.o. denies , that god vouchsafes his infallible guidance in either ; but surely the promise of god for the preservation of his word , with his care of his church , of whose faith and obedience , not the letter or writing of it , but the word it self declared of therein is the rule , and was so before the letter was , the preservation of which , is neither more nor lesse by the letters being , or not being , requires other thoughts at our hands . chap. vii . now as for what follows that above named crue or brigade of arguments , that were crowded so close together ( for as to what i have spoken to last , it was but a kind of carelesse forlorn hope that past afore them ) its mostly made up of a stragling number of grants , concessions , confessions , allowances , acknowledgments , and yieldings up of the case in hand , or the cause it self by i.o. so much before contended for ; howbeit so , as that i.o. gives the world to know ( such is [ as he sayes truly , pag. . of others , and himself too ] the vanity , curiosity , pride , and naughtinesse of the heart of man , and his readinesse to please himself with his own thoughts of things having once published them as evidences of his learning and diligence , and so exceedingly vain-glorious , curious , uncertain is the mind of man ( as i.o. also , de quo fabula narratur , sayes epist. pag. . ) after a door to reputation , and renown by learning is opened in the world , that having once spread himself in his expressions over all bounds and limits of sobriety , rather then deny himself downrighthly , so as to expose himself obvious to all , as one that hath been ignorant , and that he may render the ridiculousnesse of his lost labours , as remote as may be from the observation of the many , let the fruit and issue be what it will , he will seem to own , and stand to them to the utmost apex as long as possible he can ) that he doth not resign up the truth of his arch assertion , but upon honourable terms and with certain limitations , restrictions , distinctions , reserves to himself , and upon articles and grants back again to him from his antagonists , as ( though they help not much to heal and cure his cause from sinking , yet ) shall serve at least ( as drums beating , trumpets sounding , colours flying , bullet i' th mouth , bag and baggage use to do to keep up the half-crack'd credit of conquered fort-keepers ) to salve the credit and reputation of the wrestling rabbi . the said grants are on this wife ( viz. ) though the point at first propounded positively , and treated and insisted on very earnestly to be proved , was that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or copies which we have , do contain every iota that was in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or first writing , both of moses and the prophets , and also of the apostles and evangelists , pag. . yea , every letter and tittle of the old testament , without corruption , and entire , without various lections , pag. , , , . ( and what is spoken thus of the old testament , must be affirmed also ( quoth i.o. ) of the new , p. . ) and pag . the scripture of the old and new testament are preserved unto us entire to the least iota or syllable in the original languages ; and pag. . that the whole scripture entire , as given out , without any losse , is preserved in the copies yet remaining ; yet pag. . he sayes , it is known , it is granted that failings have been among transcribers , and that various lections are from thence risen , and we are ready to own all their failings that can be proved , p. . so notwithstanding what hath been spoken we grant ( quoth i.o. p. ) that there are and have been various lections in the old testament and the new. as for the old , among the many other he instances in , which i have also spoken a little to above , he sayes of these of ben asher , and ben nepthali thus pag. . ( viz ) in their exact consideration of every letter , point and accent of the bible , wherein they spent their lives , it seems they found out some varieties . reply . an unprofitable improvement of mens whole lives , that live no more according to the scripture , then i.o. sayes the iewes do , as honourably as he seems to speak here of it , for his own ends . . there are some varities then it seems , though thou canst find none , or else they could not have found them . i.o. sayes , of those various readings of the east and western jewes , that he is ignorant of them , and can't a while to look much after them to inform himse●f of their original , and all that he knowes of them is , that such there are , and appear in bombergius his bible , pag. . reply . whereby i.o. confesses himself to be no competent person to make any creditable censure of them , so that ( save that he credits capellus , whom he credits little , when he speaks truths , that make against i.o. ) that they are not so , they may be very momentary for ought i.o. knowes . as to the new testament , besides what i.o. sayes , epist. pag. . viz. that he evidently finds various lections in the greek copies which we enjoy , and so grants that which ocular inspection evinces to be true ; his whole third chapter of his second treatise , is totally taken up with treating of them , in which he grants ore and ore again , that there are various lections ; yea he is sain to confesse , pag. , that of the various lections in the copies of the new testament , protestants for the most part have been the chiefest collectors of them , and that though at first very few were observed , yet now they are swell'd into such a bulk , that the very collection of them makes up a book bigger then the new testament it self ; and pag. . that there are in some copies of the new testament , and those , some of them , of some good antiquity , diverse readings in things and words of lesse importance , is acknowled●ed ; and pag. . that so many transcriptions as there are of the new testament , should be made without some variations , is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i.e. impossible . rep●y . all which , if it be not a point blank giving of the point and position at first propounded , to be proved , viz. that there is no change or alteration in the least iota or syllable , from what they were at first in the scriptures of the old and new testament ; pag. . the proof whereof also was for a while more frivously and fiercely , then forcibly followed and prosecuted ; and if [ contrary to the said assertion ] it be not an yielding that there is much change , alteration , and various lection , then i know not what a resignation or rendring up of a cause is , or else understand not well what i.o. means , but mistake him to be one that means as he sayes , while he sayes one thing , and means another matter : notwithstanding by one means or other ( but fair or fowl , hook or crook , right or wrong , effectual or weak , concurring or self-contradicting , is much at one with i.o. ) he lifts up himself again [ but alittle too late , having perforce once yielded so far ] to look after his lost assertion again , to recover it , and ( if possible ) to try one touch more to see if he can make it stand up in its former strictnesse , wherein at first he laid it down : and so in one of his wonted fits of dangerlesse fear , least his giving way so much should create a temptation to his reader , that nothing is left sound and entire in the letter , which he falsly calls the word of god , and his only perfect rule , stable bottom , true and sure foundation , pag. . he summons his sentence back into its first rigidity , saying ( and that not out of hopes but that some may be so foolish as to believe him ) that with them that rightly ponder things ( all his own confessions and other protestants professions notwithstanding ) there ariseth nothing at all to the prejudice of his assertion : yea , all that yet appears , impairs not in the least the truth of our assertion , that every tittle and letter ( quoth he ) remaines in the copies preserved , pag. . the grounds which he judges his assertion ( viz. ) that there 's no alterations or various lections in tittles and letters , to stand firm upo● , notwithstanding all his grants , that there are many various lections in the present copies of the o●iginal , are the small number , the small time of standing in the world , and the small importance of those various lections and alterations that are : on these small and slender accounts he hopes to slide clear away , and salve the censure of absurdity and falshood from befalling his so strictly insisted on assertion . yea , he never leaves mincing the matter , and pinching it in again , and prosecuting what passes from him by way of grant , to get it home again , that upon the matter his giving of the cause to his opponents , aftermuch stiff , strict , & sturdy standing out in it , is but like that of egypt , who being forced to let the house of israel go after long struggling and reluctancy , and after , being afraid what would come on 't , ran out a ter them in much hast , but as little heed , as no good speed , to bring them back again ; let it go then for granted ( when he saw he could hold it no longer quoth i.o. ) there are some various lections and mistakes , but those if rightly considered , are so few , of so late , and novel , and upstart a standing ; and of so little moment , that they are not , upon a serious survey of them , deservedly to be counted upon , so far as to come under the consideration or notion of various lections . to this purpose are sundry of his speeches spawn'd up and down the face of sundry pages ; pag. . those of ben asher and nepthali , let any one run them throw ( quoth he ) he will find them to be so small , consisting for the most part in unnecessary accents , of no importance to the sense of any word , that they deserve not to be taken notice of : those of the east and western jewes , all i know of them ( quoth he pag . ) i wish such as know more of them , would inform me better , is , that they first appeared in the edition of the bible by bombergius , under the care of fe. pratensis ; they give us no account of their original ; nor ( to professe my ignorance ) do i know any that do , it may be some do , but in my present hast i cannot enquire after them ; but the thing it self proclaimes their no importance , they are all trivia ' , and not in matters of any moment . besides these ( quoth he ) and the keri and ketib , there are no other various lections of the old testament ; if any other can be gathered , or shall be hereafter out of antient copies of credit and esteem , where no mistake can be discovered as their cause , they deserve to be considered . as to the tikun● sopherim , or correctio scribarum , by which means eighteen places are corrected ; all things here ( quoth he ) are uncertain ; uncertain that ever any such things were done , uncertain who are intended by their sopherim ( ezra and his companions most probably , pag. . ) as to the ablario scribarum , these are only about the use of the letter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 four or five times , pag. as to the corruption of psal. . . where instead of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the iudicial copies , and antwerp bibles also read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 simeon de mues ( quoth he . p , , . ) pleads the substitution of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be a late corruption of the jewes , a● least that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was the keri , and was left out by them . jo. ●saac professes , he saw 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in a book of his grandfathers . boxtorsuis affirms one to have been the keri , the other the ketib , and proves it from the massor● , and blames the antwerp bibles for printing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the line , with him many agree , others contend that cari ought to be retained . rep. . see , what a heavy rout here is among the divines about one iod or iota ? what tumbling and tangling themselves , & tearing & pulling here is among the text-men , about their outward tittles and transcripts , that they may hide the flawes , that are in their foundation , from being found , because they have asserted , that if one tittle fail , their strong tower goes all down ? which yet the more they tamper about it , the more they tell the world of the ticklishnesse of it ; so the foolish woman pulls down her own house , and , by her own brawling , blames the bottom of her babel building as brittle , yet sees not how by her loudnesse and clamorousnesse , she shewes what she seeks to cover ; he that hideth her , hideth the wind , and the ointment of his right hand , which bewra●eth it self , prov. . . but i.o. interposes , imposes , and hushes all , and contrary to buxtorf himself ( his honoured great master of all jewish learning , who is an oracle with him , when he can make any use of him to his own iejune purpose ) gives his shorter determination ( so he stiles it ) and , flatly contradicting buxtorf , and all that side with him , in saying cari ought not to stand in the line ( though yet he confesses buxtorf proves what he sayes too , from the massora ) in effect affirms with his so much praised mr. pocock , that it ought to be from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by the epenthesis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the change , which is often used of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the line . ridiculum caput ! 't were enough to make an animal risibile , of one that 's scarce rationale , to see how i.o. does wel-nigh iurare in sententiam buxtorfii , so pin his faith on his for ever honoured buxtorfs sleeve sometimes , and cleaves so to his opinion , as if there had been some transmigration of old buxtorfs soul into i. o's . body ; and yet here , where i.o. confesses buxtorf proves what he sayes too , and is backt in it also by five or six other renowned authors more , i o. cleaves asunder from him , and all that cleave to him , and goes by himself , gleaning after the vintage of his master pocock , saying straitway ( sith 't is better for his turn at this time , and more pertinent to his present purpose , for all he had been so much in love with the old wine of his master buxtorfs wisdom ) that his master pococks miscellanean new wine is better . . how wilt thou scape the just censure of contradiction to thy self i.o. in that thou having mentioned these two sorts of various readings of ben asher and nepthali , and of the east and western iewes , thou addeft , pag. . that , besides these , there are no various lections of the old testament , very positively and exclusively , not only of whatever shall happen to be gathered hereafter , but also of the keri and ketib , the correctio scribarum , or amendment of eighteen places , and the ablatio scribarum , or note of the redundancy of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 five times , as no various lections ; and yet pag. . thou thy self reckonest up , and instancest in all these three sorts , as such , among the rest , and concludest the self same thou excludest from it in the other place under that very term and title of diverse readings , or various lections ? but this is a common thing with i.o. to forget himself so , as what he sayes in one place , to unsay it again in another : nor am i without apprehensions , that ( as he sayes of the learned collectors of various lections , pag. , : ) in o●ere longo obrepsit somnus , and that while he had his hands and mind busied about many things , sundry mistakes did fall into his work of disproving various lections . . what intendest thou i.o. by that clause , if any various readings shall be gathered , where no mistake can be discovered as their cause , they deserve to be considered ? is there any various lection , that mistake in transcribing is not the cause of ? where there various readings of one text to be found in the writing , as given out from god at first ? was there not identity and perfect exact likenesse to it self in every text , term , and tittle of scripture when 't was written ? and if there be any varieties now ( as there are not a few ) are not those very varieties ( so many as they are ) so many mistakes ? and is it not the position it self to be vindicated by thee against all those , whom in the wildnesse of thy heart thy hand is against , that there are no mistakes befallen the scripture , nor such miscariages as befel the transcribers of heathen authors , p. ? see also . and pag. . let men ( sayest thou ) propose their conjectures about the mistakes they pretend are crept into the original copies , we will acknowledge nothing , &c. and pag. . we have security that no mistakes were in the text before the coming in of our saviour . so . to relieve their mistakes , &c. so , . so pag. . in all which places , he whose eyes are in his head , may see how thou makest mistakes and corruptions , mistakes and errours , mistakes and falsifications , synonomaes , and yet here , p. . thou makest as if there were various lections where there 's no mistake as their cause ; and also pag. . thou quarrellest with the appendix to the late many tongu'd bible , in that therein whatever varying word , syllable , or tittle , wherein any book varieth from the common received copy , though manifestly a mistake , superfluous or deficient , inconsistent with the sense of the place , yea barbarous , is presently imposed as a various lection ; and pag. . it is ( sayest thou ) against all pretence of reason , that every mistake should be admitted as a various lection ; in which self-same page thou renderest copies corrupted or mistaken as all one . and pag. . speaking of different places , to what end ( sayest thou ) should the minds of men be troubled with them , or about them , being evident mistakes of the scribes ; as if mistakes of the scribes were one thing , and corruption or various readings from the first copy were another : was there ever the like piece of confusion and meer mangonization of matters made before by any master in israel , as this , which is here made by thee i.o. who one while makest mistakes and various lections one and the same , and otherwhiles makes them two things , so that though they do ever ponere se invicem , yet often it s so with thee , that posito uno non ponitur alterum ? surely , whether various lections and mistakes be in that text of scripture or no , and whether various lections and mistakes be all one or no ; here 's both various lections , corruptions , confusions , self contradictions , and abominable grosse mistakes also in thy talk about the varieties and mistakes of the letters transcribing ; and such an uncouth , unhewen , indigested , disjointed , incongruous , unharmonious , tottered kind of round-about discourse , as no reasonable man ever ran in , and no reasonable man can find either head or raylin , insomuch that should any quakes have uttered the tyth of that confusion , that thy speech in this matter abounds with , thou wouldest have said ( and justly too ) what thou unjustly chargest them with in thy latine letter , ad lectorem ( viz. ) that their speech is so crude and nonsensical , that thou canst not well perceive their meaning ; i shall therefore here again , as before i have done , and might do of twenty more places of thy book , not without good cause bespeak thee much-what in thy own words of the quakers ; qui● sermonem illum , quo hic uteri● bene intelligat ? quis inconditum illum verborum sonum omni sano sensu vacuum , quo non tantum omnibus aliis qui veritatem asserunt , sed & ipse tibi in dicendo contradic●●e videris , mente percipere possit ? epist. ad lectorem , & ex. . s. . quaenam sit tua de diversis scripturae lectionibus haud facile quis declarabit , praea●erquam enim quod sermones tui inter se non conveniant , ita ineptè atque odiose in explicando animi tui sensu garris , dubiae & incertae significationis vocibus ludis , nihil sani sensus aut quod ab ullis sanae mentis intelligi possit continentibus , ut multo facilius sit argumenta tua profligare quam mentem percipere ; imo cum turpis & inhonesta est , vel ipsam non palam eloqueris , vel verbis itae consutis & consarcinatis , ut nibil paene omnino significent , eam mang●nizas , atque ita inscite consilium sermonibus obtenebrans , nibil magis cavere videris quam ne intelligaris . who is able to make any thing of that raw , self contradicting kind of talk thou tracest to and fro in devoid of all sound sense , uncertain , doubtful , undistinct , patcht together , cloudy , foolish , childish , unsavoury , as if thou tookest care more to hide thy meaning , then to speak it out plainly , or make it manifest ; as if , b● foring and poking so long into pococks miscellanyes , thou hadst left thy eyes behind thee there , and contracted to thy self some certain miscellaneous spirit , that cannot tell how to distinguish any thing , but mingles all things together into a disorderly masse , and immethodically messe of impertinent confusion but to let it passe , and proced to an observation of the rest of thy poor put offs in this kind , whereby , though-thou grantest various lections , yet , thou little lesse then denyest it again , that there are any , that can properly be so denominated . how deservedly is this to be noted to the shame of thy confusion , and of thy self con●ounding self in it , that thou struglest and yie●dest , and struglest and yieldest , and then struglest again like a drunken minded man , that reeleth and staggereth to and fro in his vomit , in most places of thy book , wherein thou handlest the point of various lections . for as pag. , . thou first sayest , that your copies contain every jot that was in the f●●st , without alteration of one tittle , then that it s no doubt , but there are some diverse readings , or various lections in the copies ye enjoy ; then again , that the whole is preserved without corruption in every letter and tittle ; then again , that there is variety in the copies ye have ; but then again , ( and that 's the final resolution of the whole matter , which stands to salve all from sinking ) that where there are any varieties fallen out by gods permission thereof , it s alwayes in things of lesse , indeed of no importance . so pag. , , , after many grants , that there are many diverse readings , both in the old testament , and the new , as one afraid thou hast yielded too far to the prejudice of thy assertion , thou pullest in again what thou canst by speaking so diminutively of the various lections that are , as if they were upon the matter just nothing at all . i am not ( sayest thou ) upon the whole matter out of hopes , but that upon a diligent review of all these various lections , they may be reduced to a lesse offensive , and lesse formidable number : in which review thou reckonest as followes . i.o. . let then the vulgar copy we use passe for the standard as it 's right and due . rep , whether this [ let ] be optative , i.e. a begging , that it may by all be granted so to passe , or imperative , i.e. a commanding all so to let it passe , is much at one to me : but as from him 't is as much as to say , let that copy which i i o. imagine to be most meritorious of that honour , be the standard for all copies and things besides it self , and it self also to be tryed by , as which agrees to every tittle with the fi●st immediate manuscripts , and let all that agree not with it , stand but for so many cyphers , and be no more accounted on then if they were just nothing at all , grant me this , and there will no such varieties appear , as we are surprized with , and my assertion will stand good ; so far at least that we have a copy of the scripture , that is to a syllable exactly agreeing with the first manuscripts , in which there is no errour nor deviation therefrom , and that the same fate of mis-transcribing hath not befallen the greek and hebrew texts of scripture , as hath done other books ; to this effect i.o. sayes , to whom in short say i ( as the proverb is ) if wishes were horses , then ( lord ) beggars would ride : but that must not be , left they grow so proud as to know themselves lesse then yet they do , who are so haughty and wise in their own con●eits , as to know themselves in all reason too little already ; we may not grant thee i.o. for all thy question-begging demand of it , that your vulgar copy can claim such a high thing , as it 's right and due , to stand down as an unalterable standard for all truth and doctrines , and all other texts of transcript copies to be tried by , till thou hast prov'd it to be , to a tittle , entirely agreeing with the first manuscripts , which since thou confessest they are all long since perished , there remains nothing but thy thoughts to try it by , whether it square in every iota with them , much lesse can it be prov'd to be it's due to be canonized , as the standing rule , whereby to prove or disprove the exactnesse of all the rest : nor is the reason thou rendrest for it's right , in that kind , as here under followeth , worth a rush . i.o. let it be remembred it was the publike possession of many generations , and in actual authority throughout the world . rep. . not thorowout the whole world of christendom it self , which is but a corner in comparison of the world , nor yet thorowout the whole protestant world , which is but a corner of christendom so called , and hath not been many generations yet in actuall being it self , much lesse hath had your vulgar copy so long in actuall authority thorowout it ; yea ( as i have shew●ed above ) there have been and are bibles written and printed , that have in them books of scripture ( viz. that of paul to laodicea ) which your vulgar copy wants . . but were it so yet ( if thou mayest be believed when thou speakest as oft thou dost , in contradiction to thy self ) thy reason that the vulgar copy ought to stand ( de jure ) as the standard , because ( de facto ) it hath stood in actual authority so long in the christian world , is rendred by thy self a very reasonlesse reason , who in another place and case sayest thus , p. . if numbers of men may be allowed to speak , we may h●ve a traditional testimony given to the blasphemous figments of the alcoran ; but the constant tradition of more then a thousand years , carried on by innumerable multitudes of men , great , wise , and sober , from one generation to another , doth but set open the gates of hell for the mahometans . as therefore i own not the alcoran as a standard , upon the account of i. o's . reason for his vulgar copy , viz. the catholike , owning , receiving , and possessing it in time and place : so , though i prize the scripture above the alcoran , as much as i can do writing by divine inspiration above that which is but mans invention , yet i cannot own the vulgar copy of it as the standard , upon such an account as it's universall reception ; for what he gives for the vulgar copy , the same can i give ( if it were a sound one ) as a reason for the alcoran , viz. memorandum , or let it be remembred , that the alcoran hath been the publike possession of many generations , and in actual authority among men , as a standard thorowout the whole world of mahometanism , yet is not therefore to passe upon any ones intreaty or command , saying ( as i.o. of the other ) let it passe for the standard as its right and due . i.o. let those places be separated from the name of various lections , which are not sufficiently attested to , so as to pretend to be various lections , it being against all pretence of reason , that every mistake of every , obscure , private copy , perhaps not above two or three hundred years ( or if elder ) should be admitted as a various lection ; men may if they please inform the world wherein such copies are corrupted , or mistaken , but to impose their known failings on us as a various lections , is a course not to be approved . rep. how i.o. what against all pretence of reason , that every mistake in every obscure copy , though of two or three hundred years , or more , should be accounted a various lection ? is it not rather most unreasonable in thy self , to account it otherwise ? does the obscurity , privacy , or novelty of a copy , though more then three hundred years old , make the various readings , that are in it from the first original copy , not various readings ? are not various lections various lections , where ever they are found whether in a more ancient , or in a later copy ? are they ever the lesse various readings , because in copies , which thou callest novell , private , and obscure ? nothing it seems must be notable in the world , but what comes within the narrow ken of i os. cognizance and comprehension , its private , obscure , novell , though known to never so many , till it obtain some patent from i.o. ( who , when he knows any thing , thinks that he is the first that knows what then he first knows ) to passe for publike and ancient among other folk , though no lesse then two or three hundred years elder then himself : on which account how apishly angry is he with the authors of the appendix to the late biblia polyglotta , for counting the differences that are in later transcripts as various lections , p. . whatever varying word ( quoth he ) syllable or tittle could by any be obse●ved , wherein any book , though of yesterday , varieth from the common received copy , though manifestly a mistake superfluous , or deficient , inconsistent with the sense of the place ; yea barbarous , is presently imposed on us as various lection ; so p. . how peevishly complains he that all differences that could be found in any copies printed , or written , are equally given out as various lections ; many differences that have been formerly rejected by learned men , for open corruptions , are here tendred us again ( quoth he ) adding , it is not every variety or difference in a copy that should presently be cryed up for a various reading . a man might with as good colour take all the printed copies he could get , of various editions , and gathering out the errata typographica , print them for various lections . i answer why not ? do not all errata , whether apographica or typographica , make various lections from the first 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in some degree at least , whether they be fewer and lesser , or more and grosser ● whence come those few errours that thou thy self ownest for various lections , but from the failings and mistakes of the scribes in transcribing , or the compositors at the presse , from whence all the rest come , which by no means thou wilt admit to be called by that name ? yet those that others call corruptions and various lections on the self same account as thou callest those few , which thy ownest as such , thou turnest them off with , to what end should mens minds be troubled with them , being evident mistakes of the scribes ; dost thou grant then , that in many places of your original apographical copies , there be evident mistakes of the scribes ? in so doing dost not thou grant all that is contended for against thee , which is , that in your transcriptions of the original text , thou so much talkest for the entirenesse and integrity of , to every letter , point , syllable , tittle , and iota , the scribes were evidently mistaken , so as to mis-transcribe , and the printers , through whose hands the bible comes mostly or altogether now , were evidently mistaken , so as to mis-print many words , syllables , letters , tittles , points , iotaes , to the manifest corrupting of the scripture in the greek and hebrew text thereof , as well as of the text in other tongues , whereby it is undeniably evident to any but obstinate i.o. that the same fate both hath ever , and still doth , and therefore may ( sith quod fieri potuit potest ) attend the scripture in its editions by transcribing , as hath done , doth , or may do any other books , and may well be asserted so to do , without thy sottish , senselesse , unreasonable , atheistical supposition and censure of its bordering on atheism so to imagine , and for all thy foolish and false affirmation , p. , that the promise of god for the preservation of the scripture to a tittle , require other thoughts at our hands . i say why should not one various lection by a mistake in the transcribers or printers , be counted and called a various lection , corruption , mis-transcription , alteration of the text , as well as another ? a lesser as well as a greater , a later as well as one more ancient ? . i wonder whose reason but reasonlesse i. os. it is against the corruptions in copies of so great antiquity , as two or three hundred years , should not be numbred among others that are much elder ? and sith many mistakes and corruptions are confest to have crept into copies of later times , by the oscitancy , negligence , ignorance , wilfulnesse , or something of the scribes , who knew as much of late as they did of old , what they were about , and with whom they had to do therein , and were under as much promise , aspect , and care of god , whose providence and love to his church and word , is as great for the preservation of both in these last ages as ever ( if his un-erring guidance of scribes and printers that transcribe and print the scripture be such a non such expression thereof , as i.o. would make it ) i wonder what warrant and security i.o. who denyes inspiration and infallible direction to all transcribers from the first to the last , can give us , of the honesty , fidelity , integrity , ability , and against the erroneousnesse , carelesnesse , unskilfulnesse , and aptnesse to mis-transcribe of the more ancient , more then i can of and against that of the later transcribers , whether jewes or christians ; since they who know not the spirit , are all as zealous now of the letter as ever , and more tender , and talkative , and t●tling , for every tittle of their text , then ever they were since the world stood ( witnesse i.o. himself ) yea when was there more care and curiosity , and critical consideration about the exact writings , printings and reprintings of the bible then is now adayes ? yet no editions ever come out so carefully corrected and copied out , but that a man may fill a page with its errataes in more then either tittles or iotaes ; and if now , and two or three hundred years ago , why not in dayes of old i know not , nor any one else i believe , but that i.o. sayes otherwise , and is more ready to beleeve his own say●soes , and suppositions , then the naked truth , and to be believed by such as dote on his doctorship , then to be disproved , or proved a lyar. but finally , that i may at once remove this sleevelesse pretence of i. o. out of the way ( at his command and our own leasure ) let those obscure , private , novel copies ( as he counts them ) and their corruptions be separated and removed out of his way , since they trouble him so much ; we can abate him them , and afford and spare him the setting apart of them , and more too , and yet carry the cause against him too out of his own mouth ; nor will his plea and pretence of the privacy , obscurity , and novelty of these , if we allow it him , prosper to the proving that there is no various lections in his original texts , since we have it professed , publikely passed ( and consequently proved against himself ) under his own hand , which ever and anon pulls down what it builds up , and soon after builds again what it once destroyed ) thus viz. p. . i.o. that there are in some copies of the new testament , and those some of them of some good antiquity , divers readings in things or words of lesse importance is acknowledged ; the proof of it lyes within the reach of most , in the copies that we have , and i shall not sollicite the reputation of those who have afforded us others out of their own private furniture . rep. these being i.os. own words , whereby he hath overturned his t'other talk , i need talk no more on it , for i cannot set his babel more perpendicularly with its bottom upwards , then it stands already , as himself hath set it . yet for all this i. o. may think he hath qualified and salved this saying of his , from the censure of a contradiction to the other , by the inserting of this clause into it ( viz. ) [ of no importance ] and indeed that is the second of the generall heads , whereby he seeks to heave his high assertion up into its health again , after he had half knockt it on the head , and laid it a bleeding by his own many grants against the truth of it . i.o. . ly quoth he let the same judgement ( i.e. ) of no various lections passe upon all those different places , which are altogether inconsiderable , consisting in accents , or the change of a letter , not in the least intrenching on the sense of the place● to what end should mens minds be troubled with them ? they are but evident mistakes of the scribes , and of no importance at all . rep. . observe how this by i.o. is spoken to clear it up that there 's no considerable corruptions nor various lections crept into the copies of their text and transcripts , by the mistakes of the scribes , and in every reasonable mans understanding , 't is just as if he should have thus said ( viz. ) there is no reason that men should surprize us with the sense of so many varieties of readings as they do , through the evident mistakes of the scribes , for though i confesse there are many , yet what should they be counted on , as considerable , as corruptions , or mistakes of the scribes ? being they are no more then evident mistakes of the scribes , and so of no importance at all ; whereas the very question it self that is pleaded by us against i. o. and pleaded for against us by himself , is whether the scribes have been mistaken or no in their writing over the scripture , so as that various lections are from thence crept into the copies of the originals ? bare us but all those different places ( quoth i.o. ) which are but evident mistakes of the scribes , which are of no importance , and then let 's see how many various readings you 'l find in the scripture , to the prejudice and impeachment of our assertion , viz. that the text of our original transcripts are written entirely , to every apex , tittle , and iota , agreeably to the first hand-writing of the holy men that were moved to write it ? here 's petitio principii , again , such a base begging of the question as is utterly unbecomming any iunior in his humanity much more a senior doctor , in his divinity disputations , yet a course as fowly as foolishly made use of by i.o. in his scribe-like disputings for the scriptures ; grant us the scripture to be the word of god , ( quoth he ) under that very formality let us consider it , and then i 'le prove it so to be , or else my proofs will be left naked , and utterly divested of that authority and efficacy that i plead i● in them , p. . grant me that the evident mistakes of the scribes are not evident mistakes of the scribes in their transcribing of the scripture , and then i 'le prove evidently enough that the scribes were not so much mistaken as ye say they were in transcribing it . but ly . as to the diminutives , upon which i.o. perhaps will plead he puts the prime stresse in the case in hand , somewhat must be said , lest i.o. judge himself sleighted , if they be answered with , nothing but silence ( for as little importance as they are of to his cause , and as little importance as he would by them make our assaults to be of against his arch assertion , yet 't is like he sets so much store by them , as to suppose them to be strong supporters for his small matters , and pidling propositions , which to him ( as he sayes p . ) are important truths , to stand stedfast upon ) away with all those different places ( quoth he ) which are altogether inconsiderable , consisting in accents or the change of a letter or so , not in the least intrenching on the sense , of no importance at all , lest these passe as no alterations , or various lections , and ye shall see anon what a little corner your corruptions ye charge upon our copies will be crouded into . rep. . observe how diminutively i.o. delivers himself concerning the many mistakes , errours , and corruptions , faults and falsities that are sound to have befallen his transcriptions ; when he talks of translations , in which the word and churches interest lyes , and in which the souls of poor people that are not book-learned , any further then to read the letter in lingua vernacula , is much more concerned , then in the greek and hebrew texts and transcripts ( which the linguist onely labours so much about , as if all mens soules , and all truth lay at stake , and were eternally to live or dye at the priests mercy , shutting out or letting people into the light of life by their lips , as laborinthically , as laboriously unlocking of that humane secret ) then i.o. magnifies , multiplyes the mistakes , errors , and corruptions thereof , as is shewed above , rendring all translations ( for his own ends ) as much mistaken , & mis-rendring the literal sense as may be ; yea p. . to . and so all along in his last chapter of his second treatise , & from thence to the very end of it , speaking of the arabick and other translations , he expresses himself hyperbolically , on this wise , ( viz. ) would i make it my businesse to give instances of the mistakes , ignorance , falsifications , errours and corruptions of these translators , my discourse would swell into a volume ; and of the chaldee paraphrase , p. . thus , seeing it hath not lain under any peculiar care , and merciful providence of god , whether innumerable other faults and errours ( as it happened with the septuagint ) be not begot into it , who can tell ? and of the septuagint it self ( which some clergy men cry up as high as he can do his transcript copies ) p. . . thus all things here are exceedingly uncertain , it 's rise is uncertain , some call the whole story of that translation into question , as though there had never been any such persons in rerum natura , &c. nothing almost is manifest concerning it , but that it is wofully corrupt , and p. . this translation either from the mistakes of it's first authors , or the carelesnesse , or ignorance , or worse ( mark † of it's transcribers , is corrupted or gone off from the original , in a . places twice told , it 's a corrupt stream , a lebian rule p , . . but when i.o. talks about the mistakes , errours , corruptions , falsifications , failings of the scribes of his curious courted copies , having once so critically commended them in his hast , as to deny any corruptions in tittles and iota's to be crept into them , so as to occasion various readings , then he minifies , then he nullifies , as far as his little or nothing to the purpose can do it , either there 's none at all , or if any but novell , or if antient but in small matters , or if in any matter of moment , but very few , or if never so many , but euident mistakes of the scribes , or in spurious copies , or meer superfluities and redundancies of unnecessary and deficiencies of necessary words , or risen out of some apparently corrupted copies or other , or copies corrupted by the old heretick , to which heads most that are ( quoth he ) and ( say i ) all that can be in any scripture , are reducible , what should men mind such little things for at all ? vau ( quoth he ) is a letter redundant but five times , cari is for caru once , ● for ● by a late corruption of the jewes , who left out the keri , that is caru , and instead thereof wrote cari , which is the ketib , as isaac sayes , who in his grandfathers bible saw caru in the line . as to that of the east and western jewes , i know nothing of them ( quoth he ) but that such various lections there do appear ; but i am in too much hast to look after them ( as if because he professes his own ignorance about them , he seemed to desire that such as know them would wink and not note them , or see but say nothing of them as various lections , but let them passe for none among all the rest , because i. o. sees them not . a little trifling notice i. o. seems to take also , as if there might be such a thing ( but as much as he can in a mist he carries it ) as the correctio scribarum , or . places , confessed by elias to be corrected by the scribes , but ( quoth he ) p. . all things here are uncertain that ever any such things were done , uncertain who are intended by their sopherim , thus he white-limes it over , and washes it off as well as he can , in that sleighty way , which is so thin that they are sore and sorry eyes indeed , which do not see his sore through it and his sorry shifts , for if it be uncertain whether there be . places first corrupted and then corrected by un-inspired scribes in his text , he so talks for the integrity of to a tittle , yea or nay ; then it 's not certain to i o. that there are not , yet so it must be , or else his foundation of all ( as he calls it ) is found flawy and faultry in not so few places , but that ( by his own confession ) that his anti-fanatick , fantastick fabrick falls all into confusion , and is founded on a sandy , uncertain bottom , for what is utrobique incertum non est vel hinc vel illinc certum , quod tibi bâc incertum est non tibi certum est illac , that variety which is uncertain , whether it be so or no , i know certainly is not certainly known not to be so : but put case it be so , the old miosis must make up the matter , if there be . places of the divine text by men amended , it 's but the amendment of some small apiculi ( quoth he p. . by which saying in order to the amendment of his own bad matter , he hath fell into a worse unawares , but alas he sees it not , as he might easily do , if he were not exceedingly blinded , or more then half asleep , for if it be , uncertain to him whether there be any such amendments or no , as he sayes tis , and that the particular places enumerated , discover no such correction , how can i.o. tell what they were , and that they were but of certain apiculi , or smaller tittles ? yet he will be tittle-tatling still of what he confesses he knows not , and that it 's uncertain to him . ob. if he say , as he does , they are all in particular considered by glassius , and the matter is determined by buxtorf , his renowned masier of jewish learning . rep. i say if the testimony of buxtorf which i.o. himself sets down as written to glassius in that matter be to be credited , it overturns i. o's● saying that 't was but of apiculi onely , for buxtorf mentions them as things , which did textum sacrum in literis et sensu corrigere : see i.o. thy own quotation out of him in thy . page ; thus when men think to scrue their wits to shew themselves wise in their way against truth , they oft are lest of god to bewray themselves ( as i o. and i. d. r. b. and i. t. too in other cases do ) to be very fools ; for this of i o. is much what like that testimony which the wise high-priests of old hired the souldiers to bear against christs resurrection , who came to testifie , as eye-witnesses , of what was done while they were asleep , saying , his disciples came and stole him away while we slept , in which sleep it seems they could see his disciples come , but not awake out of it , though a court of guard to rescue him from them . so sayest i.o. contrary to buxtorf whom he quotes , the amendment of the . places was but of apiculi , and yet confessing 't is uncertain whether there were any amendment of . places at all , yea or no : if he knowes what was corrected , then the 〈◊〉 is certain that there was a correction ; but if he know not whether there were any such correction made or no , then ' ti● not certain to him , ●hat 't was but of such diminutive tittles , as he would make it . but this is the strain he strikes up in now , and the string he hangs all on . true ( quoth he ) mistakes , mis-transcriptions , various lections there are but none considerable , or of importance , but consisting in accents , or some letter not altering the sense , where there is any variety it is alwayes in things of lesse , indeed of no importance p. . and there quoting buxtorf again , he sayes thus , hebraei v. t. codices ubique sibi sunt similes , si forte exiguas quasdam apiculorum quorundam differentias excipias quae ipsa tamen nullam varieta●em efficiunt , the hebrew bibles are every where agreeing , except some small differences in some small tittles wch yet make no variety . thus the translations ( being though more for the peoples and truths , but lesse for the priests and tythes turn ) i. o. is no great friend to them , but leaves them to shift for themselves , and inhaunces all the errors in them to the height , and represents them through a magnifying and multiplying glasse ; but transcriptions ( being the linguists letter , whereby he lives more to himself and the world then god and christ ) i. o. patronizes them , and pleads and pinches all their impurities into parvulas and pauc●las ; translations are none of the doctors darlings , therefore he defies rather then deif●es or dignifies them , so much as he does the other . at pater ut gnati , sic nos debemus amici , si quod sit vitium non fastidire , &c. as fathers call the deepest defects of speech in their children lisping , and their blear-ey'd children blinkers and pinkan-eyes , so i. o. makes the best and the least of his letters legible corruptions ; transcriptions of the two being his best friend , that most helps and holds men up in academical advantages , as t. d. uses to epitomize all the hol● hypocrites iniquities into the diminutive denomination of the saints infirmities , so i.o. diminishes all the grosse open faults of his transcript copies into frivolous failings of no force . therefore let all these abovesaid be removed from that pretence , let not every , nor any varying word , syllable , or tittle in any book that varieth from the common received copy , though manifestly a mistake , superfluous , deficient , consistent , or inconsistent with the sense of the place , yea barbarous , be imposed on us as such , it being not every variety or difference in a copy that should presently be cryed up for a various reading , p. ● . . ( for that were to create a temptation , that nothing is left sound and entire in the word of god , and so overthrow our assertion which we stand so strictly to maintain ) and so to them tha rightly ponder things there will arise nothing at all to the prejudice of our assertion , p. . yea then 't will quickly appear , p. . . . how small the number is of those varieties which may pretend unto any consideration under the state and title of various lections , and of how very little importance they are to weaken in any measure , or impaire in the least the truth of my former assertion ( quoth he ) concerning the care and providence of god in the preservation of his word , that is the scripture with i. o. and every tittle and letter thereof . in all which sayings collectively considered , i.o. had as good have said in short , do but yield it , that all the varieties , mistakes , corruptions , barbarisms , of what sort or notion soever , fewer or more , greater or lesser , hurting or not hurting the sense of the place , old or new , by superfluity or defect of words , crept in from heriticks , or however , are not varieties &c. and then our assertion holds good and true ( viz , ) that there is none at all ; or thus , count not such as are of more and lesse importance , prejudicing or not prejudicing the sense , for corruptions , and then there will be found few or no corruptions in our copies at all ; or thus forasmuch as they onely deserve to be considered as various lections , where no mistake can be discovered as their cause , and these not to be admitted ( as such ) which are occasioned but by mistakes take away all that were but mistakes from that title of various lections , and all such too as were not mistakes , but evidently intended , as expository of difficulties , or supplyed purposely to make out the sense of the places , p. . . . and then there will appear to be few or no various lections ; or in a word , excepting all those that are , there 's none at all : as if a man that owes but twenty shillings , should say to his creditor , bate me but twenty shillings and i 'le pay you all . but we must not let it go so i.o. by whole sale , though ( as lot pleaded for little zoar to be spared that his soul might live ) so thou for sparing the imposition and imputation of little impurities to thy copies , that thy grand assertion ( which else must dye ) may live , which is that in the least syllable , tittle , letter , and iota , thy transcripts are true and entire , as the first manuscripts , yet we must not separate from our anti-assertion the mentioning of the mistakes in iods and vau's , and tittles , and iota's , and syllables , and vowels , and single letters , and such like , unlesse thou wilt remove from they arch-assertion , thy strict positive affirmings , that your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or copies contain every iota and tittle that was in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and that haebraea volumina nec in u●â dictione corrupta in●enienda sunt , and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. not one iot or tittle of the text passed from what ever was written by inspiration under the law , and that ye have all , every tittle without any losse , or any change , or alteration to the least iota , or syllable , and much more id genus , p. . . . . and if thou recede from , and recant that reasonlesse rigidity of thy position about the truth of thy text in tittles , we shall supersede from our reasonable reply to thee concerning the corruption and mistranscription of thy text in sundry tittles , in which it seems thou art forced to confesse to us that some tittles are amisse ; for while thou standest so strictly upon the entirenesse of each tittle , as thou sayest of the jewes , p ▪ . so i of thee while thou keepest the scripture we shall never want weapons out of thy own armory for the destruction of thy haughty assertion , like the philistine thou carryest the weapon that will serve to cut off thy own head ; for while i.o. asserts the text to be entire to every tittle , wee 'l tell i.o. out of his own book , that i.o. tells an untruth in that , for if i. o. be to be believed by himself , he o're and o're confesses mistakes in tittles , iots , vowels , syllables and single letters but if i. o will agree to a cessation of armes , and arguments about tittles , then we shall restipulate with him there , and because he doth little lesse then cry peccavi in that , and keeps such an imperious begging and beseeching , that all varieties in tittles , that are of no importance at all , may not be reckoned on as various lections , i here 〈◊〉 him to wit , that we can here also afford well enough to abate him all different places in meer tittles and accents , that intrench not on the sense , and yet have enough left to lay sure siege with against his assertion , if hee 'l hold it about matters of importance onely , and such as are inconsistent with , and intrench on the sense of the place , and that no further off then i.os. , own book , which ever furnishes us wherewith to answer him out of his own armory , for in that p. he writes thus of variety ( viz. ) those which are of importance have been already considered by others , especially glassius ; and thus , p. . let those be removed and not counted on that are deficient in words evidently necessary to the sense of their places , it evidently imports no lesse then this , that i.o. owns some varieties to be of importance , and such as do intrench on the sense in their stations , and so if we seclude all that are of lesse , or no importance with him , he stands still where he did , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , condemned and confounded every way where ever he flyes , or followes in the service of his arch assertion , if he had no man to fight against him besides himself : and if he say those of importance , and that intrench on the sense are but few : i say if any at all they are many enough ( upon his predicted principles ) to pluck up all the fabrick of his form of religion , faith about truth , and the very foundation it 's all framed upon by the roots , as to any certainty that he hath of his standing , while he stands leaning to no more but his naked letter , and can plead their original no higher then from the ticklish transcripts of his pretended original text. and that this may appear , let what followes be serious considered by any , who have not utterly lost their understanding . . that the main assertion i o. makes so much ado about the maintaining of is this ( viz. ) that though the first and immediate manuscripts , and individual writings of moses and the prophets , the apostles , and evangelists are all utterly lost , and perished out of the world , p. . . . yet the hebrew and greek copies of them that remain ex●ant at this day , do contain every letter , apex , syllable , accent , iota , tittle , point , that was in them , without any addition of the points , ablation , alteration , variation , change or corruption , by mistake or mis-transcription in the least , notwithstanding the hands of so many transcribers as they have passed thorow ; and that the text in the original languages hath been both promised to be and accordingly hath bin providentially preserved in gods love and care to his word and church , so that the same fate hath not attended the scripture , as to mis-transcription or alteration any way in the original copies of it , through any miscarriages , mistakes , oscitancy , negligence , ignorance , sloth , carelesnesse , unfaithfulnesse , much lesse treacherousnesse in transcribing thereof , as hath attended other books in their editions and transcribings . p. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . in all these pages , and many more where the particularities of it are sprinkled up and down this general grand position is to be apprehended as affirmed by him , and undertaken to be vindicated to a tittle . . that this position is not onely thus punctually propounded by i.o. for truth , but also avouched with that extremity , rigidity , and strictnesse , that it s made the very basis of all true belief , and of all that whole businesse that he calls divine , saving , sacred truth , religion , worship , knowledge , service of god , duty of man towards him , &c. so that in case these his thoughts , apprehensions , position and assertion ( as he often calls it , p. . . . . . . . ) proves not true , firm , sound , but false , faulty and faultring , and if it ever appear that there are corruptions crept into the text of scripture by either the addition of the hebrew points , accents , or punctation since the beginning of the first writing thereof immediately from god , as a late novell invention of some iudaical rabbins , viz. the tiberian massorites by whom they are judged to have been added , or else by the oscitancy , carelesnesse , negligence , ignorance , treachery , weaknesse , or wilfulnesse of the transcribers , mistaking , mis-transcribing , and thereby occasioning variations in the copies of the original , so that the text of scripture is not wholly pure and entire , or that we may if we please reject the points and read otherwise , actum est , imus , imus praecipites , what pernitious , what devious wayes must men run , scarce a chapter , a verse , a word , left free from perplexing contradicting conjectures , nothing but fruitlesse contests , nothing but humane fallible perswasion to be fixed on for the sense ; a firebrand is brought into the churches bread-corn , the consequences are so desperate that he dares not mention them , he cannot but tremble to think what is the issue of this imagination of such a supposition , that the points , vowels , accents , are no better guides then so ; it renders questionable the foundation of all , ejects as uselesse the whole scripture , it 's a pestilent poysonsome undervaluing the originals , crept in now among protestants themselves ( though this comfort is left , yet that the generality of learned protestants are not yet infected with this leven ) but if it should by a change of iudgement break in so on the protestant world , as to be avowed in publike works , the end will be a frightning poor unstable souls , into the hands of the pretended infallible guide , a return to rome under the pretence of the scriptures corruption in the original text , as there was a passing from thence under the purity thereof , yea 't is not known whether this inconvenience will grow ; yea once suppose corruptions crept into the original text , and the pretended novelty of the hebrew punctuation , and then the wells and fountains from whence ye should draw all your soules refreshment are utterly stopt , ep : p. . . so p. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . better all the works like to the biblia polyglotta were out of the world , then this opinion of the ●texs non-integrity to a tittle , or the novelty in points should be embraced with its consequences that unavoidably attend it , that if those seeming difficulties of scripture to reconcile , wch some look on as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or irreconcileable , though some learned iewes and christians have been well exercised , to reconcile and give fair account of them , may by a liberty given be looked on as corruptions , how ye shall be able to stay till ye come to the bottom of questioning the whole scripture , he knows not , p. . . let it be considered how eminently he stands concerned upon the confession that his foundation is not firm , in case a tittle of the text be wanting , or the points added to it since its first giving out , to make it out , not probably onely , but unquestionably clear and certain , that the text hath every tittle and iota , and that the points are no novelty , but of equall antiquity with the text it self , or else begin again with the qua. at his a.b.c. in the things of god , and lay a surer bottom for his building and foundation for his faith , then ever he hath laid to this day . . whether i. os proof be infallible ; or but fallible , of divine certainty or meer humane conjecture , self-conceit , thought , apprehension , and imagination onely , and whether the text be so firm and entire to a tittle , as he affirms it to be , yea rather that it is not , let it be considered by all , who read my examination of it , in this now welnigh ended exercitation , wherein the contrary is both apparently and abundantly evidenced ; his whole regiment of reasons by him rendred in proof thereof disproved , and all that defensive stragling straw that hangs about them dispelled as chaffe , as not onely falling short of infallible scientifical demonstration , but also as not amounting to so much as a probable evidence that either the points are coaevous w●●h the consonants ( which is sometimes no lesse then asserted ) or so high as ezra ( which is undertaken to be manifested ) and are not rather a novelty , no elder then the massorites ) which with such affrightments at the consequences of such a clergy-confounding conclusion is denyed , and yet ( as to that reviving thereof , whereby we now enjoy them ) acknowledged also by i o. ) or that the text is in its most original copies wherein we now have it , is the same as at first it was , without any various lections , or unchanged . thus i have traced after i.o. in his treatings and twinings too and fro , in vindication of the integrity of his greek and hebrew text , and have evidently proved that there are not onely many whole books of that scripture , which holy men were moved to write both before and since christ , wanting to his compleated canon ( as he calls it ) but also that there are many mistakes in those books that are , out of his own hand writing , which is no better then snares and bands , a certain piece of contradictory net-work of his own composing , to the catching and binding down himself , wherein he hangs hampered , intangled , and tumbled up and down in his own fruitlesse contests , fallible perswasions , and perplexing self-contradicting conjectures , so that there 's scarce a chapter , or so much as a lection in it , fully free from , or rather not fully fraught with some or other of his uncertain conceits , and certain confusions about the defending of his assassinated assertion , one while asserting and striving stiffly to maintain it in the very rigidity , universality , and utmost strictnesse of it , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. not the iot or tittle of the original text is added , altered , lost , mis-transcribed ; sometimes assenting to the contrary , onely begging that all various lections ( of what sort soever , one or other without exception ) may be excepted from the account of various lections , and then asserting that his assertion ( on that condition ) will stand entire , concerning the entirenesse and integrity of his text to a very tittle . now then since it is so 〈◊〉 at the outward letter of the scripture not only in its translations , which i.o. himself asserts to be so universally altered and corrupted from the originals , but a little also in its copies of the original is by i.os. own confession both so abundantly altered by the addition of the points since the first writing , and the variations of so many severall kinds as himself enumerates , and at best so easily so infinitly alterable , as that at the wills of men exercising their critical faculties about the text , it may by transposition and transcription of one letter for another , or supposition , and subscription of one vowel for another , be turned divers contrary wayes , and subverted in its sense so exceedingly , that some one word ( instancing in that word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ep. p. . ) may ( as it may be pointed or printed by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 afford no lesse then eight severall senses as distant from one another as life and death ; seeing also , that there is no relief against all that huge heap of uncertainty , that is found among the founders that are continually confounded within themselves , about their sickle foundation ( unlesse they will be perswaded to come to that firm in●allible sure foundation , and inalterable rule of all truth , the light , word , and spirit of god in the heart ) but their own vain , empty groundlesse , confused thoughts , imaginations , conceits , fancies , fallible perswasions and opinions , taken up by tradition from each others tomes , treatises , targums , and talmudical twatlings , as if there were neither light , nor spirit , nor word of god throughout the whole world , whereby any soul saving truth can possibly come to be known , or entertained at any certainty , further then the text-t●ining text-men tell and teach it forth , either by their oral● talkings for tythe , or manifold translatings of it out of their ( falsely supposed ) entirely transcribed copies . shall we then think because i o. to the contradiction of himself so thinks , and imposes his own thoughts on us as uncontroulable proofs , that there is no variation in the copies we have from the first manuscripts of the scripture , but that they are come to us without the least interveniency of any such mediums or wayes as are capable of giving change or a●teration , or obnoxious to fallibility in the least syllable or iota , p. . . or that the some varieties that i. o confesses r. aaron and r. moses found in their exact consideration of the bible , were small and of no importance to the sense of any word , p. ▪ especially since with i.o. ( if a body might take his tattle for truth ) every letter , tittle , iota there transcribed was a part of the word , yea no lesse then the word of the great god , wherein the eternall concernment of all soules doth●l●e . p . ? shall we think because i.o. thinks so p. . that there is not any colour or , pretence , nor any tollerable evidence from all the discrepancies in the copies themselves that are extant , that there ever were any other in the least differing from these extant in the world ? shall we think , because i. o ▪ so thinks , p. . . that all that yet appears impairs not in the least the truth of his assertion , that every tittle and letter that was in the original copies remaines in the copies of the original to this day without any losse , or any alteration , or passing away of one iot thereof , and that with them that rightly ponder things abovesaid , there thence ariseth nothing at all to the prejudice of that his so often o're and o●re again affirm'd assertion ? and if men must deal by instances in this case ( as he sayes ) and not by conjectures ( though himself gives us no instance of any one copy , of which he can say , unlesse he had the autographa by him , that it agrees every accent and syllable therewith , upon any better ground then his own bare conjectures ) yet if i had not given him instance enough of whole words , verses , books , prophesies , &c. lost of inspired mens scriptures , doth not i.o. himself give us instan●es enough of variety of lection , to the assuring us of the falsenesse of his first assertion ? which instances of his own insisting on are obvious to all readers of his book , and believed by us to be true , rather then his idle talk to the contrary , of his texts integrity to a tittle : and is there any reason ( as he sayes of himself and his adherents , ep. p. ) that we should be esteemed ridiculous , because believing our own eyes we will not believe the testimony of i.o. imagining otherwise then the case is according to his own instances , dealing by conjectures against his own instances , a man deservedly of no credit with us , running in ridiculous rounds , and asserting that to be truth , which we know from his own book to be utterly false ? shall we think that the literal text in the very transcripts he so talk● for , is any other then he cals it , as to its most ancient translation , a corrupt stream , a lesbian ●ule p. . or any other then some call it a nose of wax , no certain stable 〈◊〉 , or standard to try all truth by , & guide throughout in the knowledge of the will of god ? shall we think , because i.o. thinks so strangely , that so corruptible and corrupted a stream as the meer letter now is , since vitiated and interpolated , can be judged a fit means to judge the fountain by ( i. e ) the light word and spirit it came from ? and a fit measure to correct , and authoritatively to examine and determine those originals by ? shall we think , because i.o. hath and uttereth such high and hyperbolical thoughts apprehensions and affirmations of his transcripts , and greek and hebrew copies , and the absolute integrity thereof to a tittle , that the sole and final dissolution , determination and discovery of all saving doctrine , and distinct discerning , and knowledge of all sacred truth from cunningly devised fables , does d●●●rd ●holly and alone upon the outward greek and hebrew writing , and scripture of it , and that so necessarily and eternally , that upon any corruption supposed therein , that truth & doctrine can't unquestionably be supposed to c●●●●ue entire and uncorrupt , but must be consequently supposed to be without any other principle , means , rule , or measure of judging , recovering , rectifying it , and to be for ever ; ●medil●sly brought to nought , p. . . shall we think , because i o. so thinks , and s●lli●y supposes so , that to suppose corruptions to have befallen his undoubtedly , yea confessedly corrupted copies , and the same fate to have befallen the hebrew and greek bible in its transcribing , that hath befallen other books in theirs , is a plea unreasonable in it self , devoid of all reall ground of truth , injurious to the love and care of god over his word and church , in a high degree , and an imagination bordering on atheism , asserted on deliberation , p . ? surely the improvidence , oscitancy , negligence , ignorance , unskilfulnesse , and carelesnesse that may as groundedly be supposed to have been ( if there was never so much care and diligence in others of them ) in some of the scribes that have copied out the scriptures , as well as in some printers that have printed them , and in some transcribers of heathen authors , and the non-evidence of any promise of god to take any of the scripture transcribers under such a loving care and aspect as i.o. ascribes to them ; and i o's own concession of them , being not any of them , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , infallible , but under possibilities of mistakings , and i o's confessions , and grants , and acknowledgements , that known failings have been amongst them , and that various lections are from thence risen , . and that some of those are of importance , consisting of superfluity , and redundancy of unnecessary ; and deficiency of necessary words , which is destructive to the sense , and arising out of copies apparently corrupted , and notoriously corrupted by old hereticks , and many more matters then are fit to repeat o're again , do require other thoughts at our hands . shall we think because i.o. so thinks , & very cogitantly ( but little cogently to us ) conjectures that if the points be mans invention , and the text under alteration ( as undoubtedly it is , and therefore all the priests religion , who live on the naked texts , and their own traditions , and not the truth it self is at a losse however ) that then all is likely immediately , utterly and remedilesly to perish for ever , viz. church , word of god , doctrine , truth , certainty of the gospel , gods promise , providence , and care of his eternal incorruptible , good and acceptab●e mind , will and pleasure , life , spirit , light , law ? yea that all this and much more is little lesse then eternally undone , ( as to our knowledge of them ) so that god himself can find no other sufficient means ( having tryed already , quoth i.o. the insufficiency of all other before ) to save all these thing from corrupting , but that of a perishing , uncertain flexible , at mans will fallible , changeable , meer dead , to the light novell , corruptible , mou●d●ing , and in its first manuscripts already long since mou'dred , moth eaten and corrupted letter ? p. . surely the promise of god for the preservation of his word ( which was before the letter , and will be after it induring for ever , so that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , one jot or tittle of it shall never fail , what ever become of all the jots and tittles of the letter ) and his providence , love , and care of his church , of whose faith and obedience that word of his in the heart and not the letter , both was , now is , and ever will be , the onely rule , require other thoughts at our hands , p. . shall we think ( because i.o. fa●sly so thinks ) that such a fallible , flexible , alterable , and corruptible thing , as the letter is , by i. o's own confession not in its translations onely , but in the very original transcripts , which is the onely businesse he is so busie about , and so bestirs himself to bustle for , is that which can justly claim and supreamly challenge to it self those preheminent titles , excellent properties , extraordinary effects , peculiar prerogatives , marvellous successes &c. which i. o attributes thereuunto throwout his first english treatise , and latine ●hes● also ? wherein , under that glorious name of the word of god , by which yet ( as by that which he undertakes to prove to be it's proper name , he as , if not more ordinarily denominates it , then by its own and one●y proper name of scripture ) he magnifies the text , as to those hebrew and greek copies of it he is pleased to crown as the canon , and set his stamp upon as the standard ( while he stigmatizes not onely all translations as mens own altars , and altered things , that must not stand as the standard by the posts , and high altar of his said unalterable copies , but other copies also , as novel , spurious , and no●●●iously corrupted ; ) above all that hath any being under god , insomuch that he cannot likely utter more concerning it in way of exaltation , unlesse he should extoll it so far , as to stile it god himself . so i have done at present with i. o's unprofitable prate , about the preciousnesse , profitablenesse , and divine original of his high prized possession of the hebrew punctation ; and with his peremptory post●●n , and absolutely absurd assertion , of the non-corruption of his canonized copies of the original text to a tittle , which howbeit i have scarce gone above half so far as i might , in discovering the deep dotage and folly , that is to be found in his mingled management , and miserable mang●nization of those matters , yet i have gone farther by the hall then i should have done , considering how far off all such husky , chaffy accomplishments , as those pedantick parts of the letter , are from that wherein the life of god chiefly lyes , viz. the spirit , light , and word that 's nigh in the heart , and how little concernment the more substantial parts of the meer outward text are of thereto , in comparison of them , much more such accidentals , as the meer figure of the accents and vowels , but onely that i found i.o. manifesting his foppery so far , as to render these ticklish things of such eminent tendency to the saving knowledge of all sacred truth , as to give them out to be the most reall rule , stable standard , gospel guides , grand ground , chief infallible foundation of all ; in which respect , though otherwise it is little lesse then loathsome to me to leave the life i live in the en●oyment of my self with god , to meddle so much in such muddy matters ; yet , in service to the truth , and in love to the soules of the schoolmen and scribes , that they may see the sandy fickle f●undation they build and found all their faith upon in the business of eternal consequence , which is no better then the uncertain thoughts , conceits and conjectures of men , about shapes of letters , points & iota's . i was ( contrary to my own first intentions , carried forth to such prolixity in this matter , wch i conclude in this manner . where the foundation of the faith is utter uncertainty , there the faith can be ( according to i.o. ) no more then meer fancy and uncertainty . but so are the points , as to their original , and so are the transcript copies of the original text , as to its entirenesse and integrity ( i appeal to i. o's own book , and all rationall readers of it and mine ) which points and text are by i.o. and his school fellows made the canon , rule , guide , touchstone , standard and sure foundation , p. . . of all that faith and obedience , which god requireth at their hands . therefore their faith toward god , as yet , is no more then meer fancy and uncertainty . the third apologetical , and expostulatory exercitation . chap. i. though much more might be said i.o. to many of thy matters behind mentioned , yet having sufficiently swept away sundry of thy figments and false aspersions of the qua. in vindication of them , and turned thy lyes in plain english upon thy self , which thou laidst in latine upon them , about their rejecting of the scriptures , and taken some useful notice of the bounds and first constitution and consignation of that ye call your canon , and of what thou foolishly and falsly affirmes● of the hebrew punctation of the bible , and the entireness of the text to a tittle , as at first : i shall come to some consideration of many more of thy cloudy , crooked conceptions of it , and of those many false tales ( whether not as much to the dishonoring of it in truth , as to the honoring of it in pretence , sith thou placest it unduely in the throne of christ , let the reader judge ) thou very confidently tellest for truth of the scripture it self ; which seeing thou art first appearing in the field against the qu who are its true friends , my business , who appear also for it as well as thee , and to state it in as high authority as ( salvá christi ipsius eminentiâ ) it may honestly stand in , without high treason to the supremacy , crown and dignity of christ , and his light and spirit , will lye mostly in reducing it from that throne and supream seat of judicature on which thou set'st it utterly against the will of christ revealed in it , into its due place of a subordinate servant in the church , where , as a writing , it summons all to come to him , the light , the onely iudge , lord and law-giver , that 's able to save and destroy , who by his light sits in the conscience of all , to try all for life or death , searching the heart and reins , to give to every one according to their wayes , works , and fruit of their doings , and t●en what thou displacest will stand all in its due rank and proper order . thy grand assertion then of the scripture , unto which all almost of the other that thou predicatest of it is , as it were , but subordinate , and some of it subservient to the proof of ; as also it is subservient to the proofe of some of that , whereof yet some is so promiscuously , in such a confused way of mingle mangle , treated out , that one can't tell well whether it be proprounded in proof of the scriptures being the word of god , or the scriptures being the word of god , is made demonstrative of that ; yea the same things are sometimes interchangeably praedicated in mutual proof of each other : for to prove the scripture to be the word of god , thou urgest its self evidencing efficacy and power , and to prove it to be living , efficacious , and powerful , thou urgest it s being so from places , that speak onely of the word of god , not the letter of it ; and many more such like ratelled pieces of proof there are in thy unhewn handy-work ; but i say , the grand assertion thou prosecutest the proof of thorowout thy first english treatise , and much what in the first exer●itation , is this , viz. that as to name and thing the scripture properly is the word of god : and having hous'd it under this high title , and in thy own crooked conceit of it , crouded it by fowl , more then fair means , and by force of arms , [ as i may say ] more then force of honest arguments , under the starely canopy of that super-eminent compellation , thou afterwards callest it on that account , many things more , so much as one of which it is not ; yea consequently , any thing , every thing that the word of god it self alone [ and not the scripture ] truly is , and by right onely is to be called . first then , thou i.o. affirmest of the scripture , the letter of it , that it is the word of god , in esse reali , & in esse cognoscibili , i.e. not onely so , but known so to be , and that as to name and thing , [ i.e. ] that as in its nature it truly and properly is so , so that glorious title of the word of god is its own due right , true proper name , which the qua. denying to it , and seeking to draw it [ in discrimen nominis ] into a difference in name from , do no less then divest and spoil the scripture of its proper name : and this thou sayest , ex. l.s. , is the work which the quakers rejoice at that it is committed to them by satan , for which onely thou takest them to do , as if thou hadst no more to do with them , nor they with thee , then de scripturae nomine proprio , as thou there speakest , and as if the qua. did yeild the scripture to be the word of god , and had nothing against its being so , as to its proper nature , and yet would not endure to allow it to be called by its own proper name , that is most answerable to its own nature . rep. not too fast at first [ friend ] least what thou writest in haste , thou come to repent by leisure : thou mistakest thy self very much as to thy busie busling with the qua. who may possibly find thee more work then thou art aware of , before they whom thou beginst to lash , and lash out against in thy latine cover-cloath , have done with thee : they seeke not meerly to bring the scripture , to which they ever allow its own proper name , ( in discrimen nominis ) back to its own name , from those many new-found-names , not due to it , but to the word , it s the writing of , from which word in the night your fore-fathers have stole them , to stile it by ; but also [ in discrimen rei ] to manifest it to be what it really is , and no more then what it is , to you and others , who not onely call it , but count it to be what it truly is not . the qua. are not such idiots yet , as to rob any things ( as you do many ) of their own proper names ; nor so foolishly fanatical , and fantastical , as to spend their time in inanibus logomachijs , or onomamachij● , so , but that if thou canst prove the scripture to demonstrate it self infallibilite● , ex. . s. . infallibly and uncontroulably , pag. . to be the word of god , as thou undertakest to evince , but ad graecas calendas , to morrow come never [ as they say ] thou wilt do , and not before , they will then freely grant it to be call'd so , whose work with thee and all men , is to have all things first known to be what they are in their proper nature● , and then call'd by those proper names that are agreeable to those natures . though then we deny the scripture to be called by that of the word of god , as its proper name , yet it is upon this account , because neither thou nor any man in the world is able to prove it to be so in its proper nature ; whereupon , howbeit we eternally own the word of god properly so to be , and infallibly , and incontroulably evidencing it selfe so to be , and that it ought ( as by its own proper name ) to be called the word of god , which ( if thy tottering ragged way of argumentation , wherein thou ten , if not twenty times over , and more , inadvertently , and contrarily to all rules of true disputations , transposest thy t●rms , making the word of god both thy subject and the praedicate also , which thou often praedicatest of it self , be well observed ) thou belabourest thy self to prove against i know not whom to be evidently , and to be called properly the word of god ; and howbeit we also own the word of god to be all those other things , viz foundation , rule , light , touchstone , witnes● of god , onely means , of the saving knowledge of god , most effectual means of bringing men to repentance , quickening power , power of god to salvation , and many more by which thou denominatest it : nevertheless that the scripture , or outward writing , or external text , of either your copies of the original , or the original copies , which you have not now in the world , much more that the text of any translation thereof into other tongues , or the english tongue either , which is all that poor english people have , who are no higher learnt , as to earthly languages , then their mother-tongue : much more that every tittle , iota , and apex of any of these , as thou apishly contendest it is , in your transcripts at least , pag. , . is either the word of god , or any ●ther of those things , or properly to be called by that of the vvord of god , by which yet thou streinest a point to call it , and dost o're and o're , either under that term , the vvord , or that of the scripture , which is onely properly its own ; this is that which i am here entering the lists with thee about , and am to the undeceiving of both powers and people of this nation , who by your sophistical sorceries are bewitcht into a blinde opinion about both the truth , and the qua. who hold it out in that particular , notwithstanding thy pretensive proofs to disprove against thee . nevertheless , before i can yet come immediately to the examination of thy proofs in particular , in order to the disproof thereof , or to thy own holding out of any thing to the contrary ; so many , great , and gross are the absurdities and illegalities of thy manner of disputation in proof of this business , viz. that the scripture , both as to name and thing , is , and is infallibly and undeniably known to be the word of god ; that i may not honestly pass on here without a discovery to all men of thy most illegitimate and downright dishonest dealing , in thy driving on of thy argumentation in●order to the evincing thereof in sundry particulars , which i shall exhibit to the view of all men under this one general head , viz. thy unworthy begging of the main question in hand , which thou takest upon thee to prove , as well in thy english treatise upon that subject , which thou sayest thou hadst preached on , which [ as published ] is a dispute too , for the scriptures , as in thy latine illogical , and theological disputations , or apologeticals pro scripturis , in both the one and the other of which , thou never keepest close to thy main terms , which ought never to be altered in any legal disputation , but both changest and confoundest them together , even the grand subject , that is , the scripture and the grand praedicate of it , that is , the word of god , almost as often as thou hast to do with them ; insomuch that thy tr●ctations and transactions for , and about the outward letter , or text of the scriptures , which are the subject from whence thy latine , and thy english works in their title . pages both bear their main denominations of vindication of , and apologies for the texts of the scripture , the proof of which , to be the known , pure , perfect , powerful , living , spiritual , saving , necessary , unalterable , unchanged , uncorrupted &c. word of god , is thy main professed work , scope , drift , and intent thoroughout them , are such an indistinct , term-transposing argumentation , such a ●●agonized mess of male proof , such an underboard piece of double-dealing , as proclaims its author , as well to such as know him by neither , as to such as know him both by name and face , to be one that dur● not play above-board , but digged as deep as he well durst , for fear of being too much dis●ryed in his deceit on the other hand , to hide his counsel , that he might be the less noted in his turnings of things up-side-down , that having once put apart as two specifically different things , the scripture or its doctrine ; whereof one was to be his main subject , the other his main praedicate throughout his disputation , durst not keep them clearly asunder , as he should have done all along in his premises , till he came to his conclusion in which onely if at all ) they were by right to be joined , nor speak of them constantly sigillatim , as of two things formally , seperated in their nature , & to be seperated in their names , till the one he infallibly or plainly proved to be the other , ( viz. ) the scripture to be the word of god , and the word of god to be the scriptures ; but being jealous whether things might grow to the disadvanta●● or hazard of hi cause in question , and utter loss of his positive assertion of the scriptures to be the word of god if he should , was afraid to speak plain : & so i believe thou i.o. art to utter thy meaning too openly , or speak thy mind out too distinctly , and so chusest to prosecute thy proofs the more promiscuously , and to carry thy ill cause on the more confusedly , by the shifting and changing of thy terms ever and anon , and to beg the question in hand , or take it for granted before it be given thee , that the scripture is the word , & to supplant and forestall thy reader with thy often , or ordinary crouding of these each under the other's name , and indifferent denominatings of them each by the other , as synonomae● , before thy time : ( i.e. ) before thou hast proved the name of the one at all proper to the other , by the one 's true participation of the others essential properties or nature ; so that ● like the fis● caepia , that being pursued by its adversaries , flings a flood of black inky stuff behind it , to hide it self from being seen and taken ) by a blind blending , and cloudy confounding of things together , which being treated of formaliter , and discoursed of divisim each under its own peculiar form , and proper name and nature , both thy own folly , and the falseness of thy propositions , should be discovered , yea by pidling and pedling , and playing fast and loose , thou seem'st to puzzle the minds , and put out the eyes of such as shall ever prosecute thee for thy rotten principles : insomuch that i may truly say of thee , what thou untruly utterest concerning the qua. pag. . of thy latine tract , viz. quaenam sit horum hominum sententia haud facile quis declarabit , &c. and so mutatis mutandis turning all thy verbs out of the d. person , plural , into the d. person , singular ; ) i may safely sing back to thee in thy own words , as follows , viz. * what thy mind j.o. is in this question , whether the scripture be the word of god , or no , one can hardly declare ; for besides that thou agreest not with thy self , thou dost so foolishly and nauseously prate in the opening of thy mind and meanings , and playest about in words of an uncertain and dubious signification ; and usest for the most part certain forraign phrases , containing no s●und sence that can well be understood by any that are well in their wits , which are enough either to astonish or bewitch unskilful men ; so that it 's more easie to confute thy arguments , then conceive thy meaning ; yea , when thy opinion is so foul and dishonest , that if the fair pretences and covers be removed , and it distinctly unfolded , it sufficiently destroyes it self amongst all honest men , that are not openly dishonest ; endeavouring what thou canst so delude , either thou speakest is not out openly , or else manglest it to pieces in such a sticht and patcht up forme of speech , that can signifie well-nigh nothing at all ; and so darkening thy counsel by words without knowledge , thou seemest to be afraid of nothing more , then least thou shouldst be understood . in such wise as this i.o. dost thou proceed in thy present paper works that are now under examination , having in thy hast heedlesly uttered forth some faucied high-flown falsities about the bare letter , and meer outside of the scriptures , and every tittle and transcribed iota thereof , viz. that these are the true spiritual light , and authoritative , powerful word of god , and such like ; and after fearing the falshood of such forward expressions , from which ( as most of thy fellow wise men are in the like case , who though they are foolish and ignorant enough , yet of all things in the world are loath to seem , and even abhor to be accounted so to be ) thou art ashamed totally to recede and recant , so as altogether to go back , which rather then do , when ye are once over shooes , thou and thy generation chuse to be over boots also , thou staggerest and reelest now this way , now that ; and to mend and moderate the rigidity of thy positions about the scripture , for the saving of thy credits sake , as far ( salva cel●itudinis ac celeberrimae sapientiae t●ae gloriâ as is consistent with thy credit another way , thou wheelest about , and frequently foisting in the predicate into the place of the subject , and that term , the word of god , in the room where this term only , viz. the scripture should stand , even while thou art but in thy proof of the scripture to be the word , thou darknest thy counsel by words utterly without knowledge , and rendrest thy self ambedextrously and ambiguously , that thy reader may not well read thy meaning in what thou writest , nor whether when thou avowest the scripture to be the word of god , and powerful , &c. thou intend'st the scripture it self , that one individual thing call'd the letter , or writing , which alone is the very formality of the scripture , or the other individual thing , which is not at all the outward scripture , though so called often by thee , viz. that word of which the scripture only speaketh ; for one while thou singlest out that grand subject of thy dispute , i. e. the scripture , and setting it apart from the doctrine , faith , divine truth , and vvord it writes of ; seemest as if all along thou wouldest discuss the things thou praedicatest of it , under that single notion of its being an external writing , apart from the doctrine , and word of faith written of therein , as tr. c. . s. , . expressing thy self thus , viz. not onely the doctrine in it , but the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the very writing , writings , book it self is so , and so ; thereby leading thy reader up and down by the nose , up into the air , into a high expectation of thy handling the scripture formally , ( quatenus scripta ) as a writing , as written , which is the onely subject promised to be treated on , and for , in the title pages , and of thy proving it as such● to be the word , and mighty power of god ; from whence thou tumblest him down again , and frustrating those his former expectations , other while , conjangletim thou jumblest these two as synonomaes into one , in many such , or the like expressions , viz. the writing , or w●rd written ; the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or the doctrine as written : and tr. . c. . s. . the scripture , or written vvord of god : and s. . now the scripture , the vvord of god is light , the innate arguments that the word of god is furnisht withall for its own manifestation , contain the full or formal grounds of our answer to that question why we receive the scripture , [ see how these terms are twisted one into another ] to be the word of god , tr. . c. . s. . thus thou usest them so promiscuously , as if they being with thee entirely one , 't were indifferent , and no matter at all which of the two thou expressest thy self by , saying sometimes the scripture is a light , a moral and spiritual , not a natural light , as tr. c. . s. , . the scripture makes a proposition of it self as the vvord of god , tr. . c. . s. . for the proof of the divine authority of the scriptures , if the booke be brought to him or them that acknowledge it not , &c. the vvord [ there thou goest off again ] left with them , it will evidence it self , s. . the scripture it enroll'd among things that are able to evidence themselves , s. , . i● ( i.e. the scripture ) is absolutely called the power of god , s. . the scriptures of the old and new testament do abundantly , and uncontroulably manifest themselves to be the word of the living god ; so that meerly upon that account of their proposal of themselves to us in the name and majesty of god , as such , without contribution of help or assistance from any thing else without themselves , we are obliged upon the penalty of eternal damnation , as all are to whom by any means they came , or are brought to receive them with that submission of soul which is due to the word of god , t. . c. . s. . the scripture being brought unto us , it doth evidence it self infallibly to our consciencet , to be the word of the living god , t. . c. . s. . if the question be , vvhether the doctrines proposed to be believed , are truths of god , or fables , we are sent to the scripture it self , and that alone to give the determination . t. . c. . s. . surely men will not say the scripture hath its power to command in the name of god , from anything but it self , t . c . s. . them that own the booke whereof we speak , to be the word of god , t. . c. . s. . how know we that the scripture is the word of god ? how may others come to be assured thereof ? the scripture , say we , beares testimony to it self , that it is the word of god , t. . c. . s. . and in thy two treatises which treat all along of the text , thou tellest it more loud-lye , that every letter and tittle that they were transcribing , and to be transcribed of the old testament by the jews , was part of the word , nay the word of the great god , wherein the eternal concernment of souls doth lye . these , and much more , ejusdem furfuris , are the wayes wherein thy minde makes out it self sometimes ; sometimes again as if thou wert somewhat sensible of having not a little overshot thy self by thy too too eminent expressions , and lofty undertakings for the naked scriptures , which can never possibly be made good of them , to palliate all thy proud boastings , and broad shews , and too too ample settings out of a bare body , or bulk of letters , and ●●ward writings , thou drawest thy neck out of the collar wherein it hung , slylie flink'st away , and shrinkest back , standing like caesar at rubicon , with one foot over he dote-fel , and the other on this side , saying , yet i may go on ; and by and by , yet i may go back , not resolved which way to betake thy self , whether to go on in thy high and hasty undertakings for the scripture upon that old single score of its being but barely scripture , least thy proof should not hold at so high a rate ; or whether to double thy files by bringing them two both into one again , that were sometime sundred , viz. the scripture , and the doctrine or word of truth it treats of ; the outward writing , and the word of faith within that is written of , which could not be made appear , consider'd sigillatim , or apart , to be both of them the word of god ; and at last , though that be bad enough , there being no better way in the sight of one that loving the praise of men more then the praise of god , is loath among men to be mock't at , as the builder that begins , and cannot carry it to an end , having another string to thy bow , thou strengthenest thy weake business what thou art able , & furtively clapping a greater glory , light , power and honour in respect of titles , about that dark , dead , weak and naked body of the writings , then that which considered by it self , it can duely and lawfully challenge [ notwithstanding thy unwary assertions not onely elsewhere , but also ex. . s. , . viz. that scriptura hoc verbi dei nomen sibi vendica● : the scripture challengeth this name of the word of god , unto it self ] even that of the inward living word of god it self , to which alone all that glory , and those glorious names by right are due , and not to the letter , and were due before the letter was ; when thou hast laid the true , unchangeable , inward truth , and word of god , instead of the letter , the outward , and thy outwardly beloved changeling , and subtilly shrowded it under that name and notion of the word of god , which is the very thing in question , and the name to be disputed on , whether it be due to it or no , and is as much still denied by us , as it is by a piece of sophistical thievery taken by thee to be its undoubted right , before it be either proved by thee , or by us , or any but ignoramus himself , granted to the●● then o come let us sing a new song , thou marchest forward again 〈◊〉 , driving on thy self same old dispute , concerning a new stol'n different subject , which is now prest to serve as both thy subject , and thy praedicate , and to supply the proper place of both , which being denominated and praedicated all along of it self , all thou sayest of it is most undoubtedly true , and uncontroulably thou carryest all clear before thee , crying it up to this purpose , viz. that of a truth the word of god is a light , the word of god is living , the word of god is perfect , of divine authority , the word is the most glorious light in the world , a shining , illuminating light preferr'd ab●u● that of the sun , &c. * the word of god is furnisht with innate arguments for its manifestation of it self , i e. to be the word of god ; † there is in the dispensation of the word , an evidence of truth commending it self ●● the consciences of men , some receive not this evidence , is it for want of light in the truth it self ? no , that is a glorious light that shines into the hearts of men : * where-ever the word comes , by what means soever , it hath in it self a sufficiency of light to evidence it self to all , that authority of god its author : ( which authority is with i.o. its power to command , as the word of god. ) the word makes a sufficient proposition of it self , where-e ver it is : he that hath the witness † of god , need not stay for the witness of man : * for the witness of god is greater . where-ever the word is received indeed , as it requireth it self to be received , and is really assented to , at the word of god , it hath its power of manifesting it self so to be , from its own innate light ; thy vvord is truth , &c. s. . thou hast magnified over all th● name , the word thou hast spoken : the name of god is all that whereby he makes himself known , yet over all this god magnifies ●his word &c. t. . c. . sect . . leave the word with men , and is it evidence not it self unto their consciences , it is because they are blinded . in all which sentences , and many more that might be mentioned , there 's no mention of the scriptures by the old true term of the scriptures , though that name is interwoven too , in wel-nigh every page , to denote , that although the discourse that is in proof of their being the word of god , is driven on in their behalf under that new name of the word of god , yet by that word , the word , we may know that by i.o. the scriptures are still intended ; but as if the sole use of that single name of scriptures , might prove too weak a term to venture the stress of the whole cause upon , and too empty an engine to carry it by , it s carryed along also under that more trusty term of the word of god , by which name i.o. by a thing call'd petitio principij , granting himselfe leave to call the let ter before it 's given undertakes to prove it to be the word of god , and most uncontroulably proves it so to be , so far as the letter he calls the word of god , is really so , though ( for all his seeming to himself to have won all ) not one jot farther then it s so indeed , & that indeed is not at all ; having gotten such a noun substantive as the true word of god is , which can stand by it self under its own name of the vvord of god , without objection , in all propriety of speech and signification , and is every way able to evidence it self to be the vvord of god , and is seen , felt , heard , of them that heed it , and understood & not denyed so to be by the qua. to stand by his noun adjective assertion of the scripture so to be , which cannot stand by it selfe under that name , in any propriety of speech , or sound sence , reason , or signification , then he runs an end ( nemine c ontradicente ) none opposing or withstanding him in his progress , nor ( however reserving alwayes a liberty to themselves to dissent as they see occasion from his meaning ) so much as once gain-saying him in his terms with a hideous hue and cry for the word of god , striving to restore it by his over-often repetitions of it to that title , which it never lost among the qua. who being begotten and born again into the image of god by it , are by whom onely it stands truly justified ● the children of it , and of the truth ; scribling it over with all his might , the word of god , the word of god , the word of god is a light , and the word of life ; the word of god is the powerful and living , and efficacious word of god , the word of god is the word that dwells and dives within the heart , the word of god doth evidence it self to be , and therefore is without controle the word of god : yea thus with a non obstante to all that deny the word to be the word , which are none at all , j.o. if it may be first granted him that the scripture is the word will undertake to prove it beyond & without all further question , to be the word . thus jo. howbeit by that terme the word of god he means the scripture all along in his book , saving in one place , where he calls the word essential and effective , yet as if he had utterly forgot that his business is to prove the scripture to be the word of god , & , as if he had remembred himself after he was entred , that his proof would not hold out , without a palpable appearance of piteous weakness , if he should have prosecuted it throughout under that terme of scripture , takes his predicate and makes that his subject also , and in terminis goes all along asserting and assuring us the word of god is un doubtedly the word of god : yea tr. . cap. . sect . . he goes on to prove that the word of god doth evidence it self to be of god , and is of as much , or more excellency and efficacy then his works and innate light to reveal god , and give the knowledge of his will , not so much as once mentioning the letter or scripture at all , which is the subject he there takes on him to speak of , in all the following sections to the chapters end , so be labouring him all along to prove another question then that he affirmed , viz. that the word is so and so , when his business was to have proved the scripture to be the known word of god , for who denies that the word of god is assuredly his word ? but that the letter is that word is that which is denied , and by him undertaken to be proved , yet on he goes in his wonted blundring manner upon that term the word of god , the word is undoubtedly evident to be the word , making that both suject and predicate ; whereas he should have said all along , if the light and gods outward works do so , much more doth the scripture , or the letter evidence it self to be the word of god , so giving his reader no more to understand what his meaning is , but that we know it some way else , nor which is which by any distinction in his found , or shewing when he speaks of the scripture which is the copy of it , or the word it self , which is that in the heart , declared of in scripture , which he was to prove the scripture to be , then the welch-man that being to give evidence before a court between two that were fighting , who began , and was most in fault , answered no otherwise then in this confused manner , viz. if him had struck him , as him did him , either him had killed him , or him him , without any indignation of which of the two he meant , either this or that , by any , or by all of his many hims . in this confused indistinct manner doest thou j.o. dispute for the scriptures being and appearing to be the word of god , so that none , but folk , knows what thou pleadest for , viz. whether the scripture it self singly and formally considered , about which the controversie is , whether it be the word of god or no , or the word of god it self , about which no controversie i● at all with the qu. ● who own gods word to be his word ; yea draw up all thy rambling matter into a closer form , and thy arguments , which though thou call but some of them inarteficial , and the rest arteficial , yet are in truth the most inarteficial ones , that ever i saw fall from the hands of an artist , or ever heard called truely by the name of arguments , into a nearer compass , and set them in a true , fair syllogistical form and order , and they will appear either most false , or foul , or disorderly , or sophistical , or deformed . ( reader ) for a taste take one or two of j. o.'s . mediums ( letting alone the examination of the strength and force of his arguments , whether such as he calls arteficial , or inartificial ) and of their true consequence or inconsequence , as to the scriptures appearing to be the word to its due place● and see what a mamock● kinde of matter they make , or amount to , as j.o. orders , or rather disorders his matters , by his impostural intruding of one subject in place of another , and thrusting in of that terme the word of god , which is the main thing predicated of the scriptures , to stand instead of that terme the scriptures , of which it is by him predicated , and to be proved ( both in esse reali & cognoscibili , ex. . sect . . ) that they are , and are assuredly known to be the vvord of god , and so properly to be called . having first in t. . cap. . sect . laid the divine original of the scripture , as the basis of all his babylonish building , and as he saith , t. . c. . s. . opened the manner of the words * coming forth from god , to prove the scriptures of the old and new testament to be the vvord of god , much of which makes against himself , at large in a long train of perplexive prittle prattle throughout his whole second , third , and fourth chapters , from the self-evidencing property and efficacy of the scriptures , which aforehand still he calls the vvord of god ; but to shut it all up together in short , to this purpose , viz. that which evidenceth it self to be the word of god , that is , and is known assuredly to be the word of god ; but the word of god doth evidence it self unto us to be the word of god , therefore the word of god is , and is known assuredly to be the word of god. the minor in this syllogisme , none denieth , it being true in those termes it here stands in● yet it is false and sophistical , as falling from him , who by that term the word of god in the sore part of the proposition , means the scriptures , the utter falshood of which minor , and so consequently of the conclusion ( which is now true , but aliud a negato ) would have too plainly appeared , if he had not sophistically placed that subject , i.e. the word of god , as it stand formost in both , in the room of the right subject , i.e. the scriptures , or if he had not changed his minor term , but exprest himself thus , viz. but the scriptures do evidence themselves to be the word of god , therefore the scriptures are , and are known assuredly to be the word of god : and to prove that minor , j.o. useth another medium , viz. gods magnifying his word above all his name , by which à minore ad majus , i.e. from the self-evidencing power of smaller matters ( as he counts them ) i.e. the works of god , and the light in the conscience , the law written in the heart , and the notions inlaid there with his own finger , which he calls the voice of god in nature ( for these are low ● darke , obscure principles , and means of revealing god and his will with j.o. in comparison of the writings and letters that are inlayed in parchment and paper , with the finger of meer man , which low principles yet are able to plead their own divine original , and evince them to be of god ) he argues at large that the word of god ( scripture again he should have said ) doth much more evidence it self to be his word ; and ( to put his lax and loose words into a narrower room , and into a more argumentative or syllogistical posture ) thus , viz. if those inferiour names of god , whereby he makes himself known , even his works without , and his light , his law written in the heart and conscience , * to which there need be no other witness ; that when they testifie god's righteousness , or holynesse , and call for moral obedience , which is eternally and indispensably due to him , they speak from god , do evidence themselves to be what they are , and to be of him ; then much more his word , [ the scripture he should have said ] which god magnifies over all his name , † must evidence it self to be his word : but those inferionr names do evidence themselves , and therefore much more doth the word of god [ the scriptures again he should have said ] evidence it self to be the word of god. rep. what a strange story is here , as if a man should tell a tale of two things , a cock and a bull , metamorphos'd into one , whereof the one having been as confidently , as untruly avowed to be assuredly known to be the other , viz. the cock to be a bull , is [ being denied ] as ridiculously , as reasonlesly profer'd to be proved in this illegal , and illogical way of argumentation , viz. that which evidenceth it self to be a bull , both is , and is assuredly known to be a bull ; but the bull [ alias , the cock , for so he means , & should say ] evidenceth himself to be a bull : therefore the bull [ or the cock ] both is , and is assuredly known to be a bull. in this shameful manner and sorry sort , doth i.o. having once audaciously avouch 't it , go about to prove the scriptures to be , and to be assuredly known to be the vvord of god , by anticipation , sophistically substituting that subject , the word of god , in his disputation for it , in the room of the legal subject , i.e. the scriptures , taking it , perforce , from such as give it not for granted , that it is so , while to them-ward it s yet no more but the thing in question , and utterly unproved so to be ; which question i.o. not onely begs , but also begs so unworthily and basely , that i never saw the like to it , but once † before in all my life , and the like to it can't likely be seen again , unless a man should beg it on his knees , little less then plainly , confessing that unless it be aforehand granted him that the scripture is the word of god , he cannot possibly prove it so to be : what wise man , that is as willing to do the truth right , as thee i.o. no wrong , can make any better construction of thy own words , as they are to be read in the ● . sect . of the . chap. of thy first treatise , where , professing that in the remainder of thy discourse thorowout that treatise ( which is all in proof of the scriptures being assuredly the word of god ) thou shalt endeavour to clear and vindicate the self - evidencing efficacy of the scripture , and the grounds thereof , by such common mediums as shall as well reach the reasons of such men , as acknowledge not the scripture to be the word of god , as of such as do , thou desirest in effect onely to have thus much first granted thee , that thou mayest have leave ( the scripture being that out of which thy proofs for , and grounds of this self-evidencing efficacy of the scripture to be the word of god , are to be taken ) to consider the scripture as 't is the written word of god , or else all thy proofs will be weak , and able to prove just nothing . this onely ( quoth i.o. to recite his own words ) i shall desire to promise , that whereas some grounds of this efficacy seem to be placed in the things themselves , contained in the scripture , i shall not consider them abstractedly as such , but under their formality of being the scripture , or written word of god , without which consideration and resolution , the things mentioned would be left naked , and utterly divested of their authority and efficacy pleaded for , and be of no other nature and importance , then the same things found in other books : which is as much as to say , being by the scripture to prove the scripture or writing both to be , and to evidence it self to be the word written , or the written word of god ; let such as deny it , deny that their denial of it , and but first own it with me , that the scripture , or writing formaliter , is the written word of god , and let us but under that name , nature , notion , and formality consider it , and then let me alone to prove it to them so to be , or else i must acknowledge that all i have to say , will be just nothing to the purpose , and of no validity at all to the proof thereof . reply . but stay a while i.o. and take thy answer from us along with thee , though we love thee more then we are beloved by thee , and are loath to deny thee in any reasonable request : yet for the truth 's sake , which we love , and prefer before thee , and which is not ours to give away , we may not give way to thy petition of the main principle from us , though thou crouch down to the ground to petition for it , we must not give thee leave to run away with the cause , so as to consider the writing , the scripture , under the false formality of its being the word of god written , the verbum scriptum , while thou art but in the meer way of proving it , till thou hast as infallibly prov'd it so to be , as 't is infallible to us , that 't is impossible for thee to prove it : for this is the thing , sub judice , whether the scripture be formally the vvord of god , or no : and since thou confessest thou canst not prove it , unless we , upon thy begging of it , yeild it to thee before-hand so to be , thou wert better grant it to us that it is not so : nevertheless , ( not unlike to thy fore-fathers the bishops , and thy fellow-clergy-men in other cases ) so bold a lord-beggar thou art , that if we give it not , thou wilt take it by force , though thou crack thy credit for it , and get to thy self less of that earthly honour thou so hastenest after , with thy having it by stealth , then thou wouldst gain of that heavenly honour from above , by an honest confession of thy former ignorance , and a repentance to the future acknowledgement of the truth ; for upon that score thou resolvest so to go on in thy proof , and accordingly dost run rashly on , like him who as aforesaid proves a cock to be a bull , or like one who , because he thought so in the dark , having ignorantly asserted an horse to be a man , will ( rather then recant ) as impudently go on to prove it to all denyers of it , by begging of them first to grant it , and if they will not , by beating , what he can , the belief of it into them , by his often calling the horse a man , and bearing them down that he is a man , before he begins , and under that very name and formality of his being so , begins and proves him to be evidently so in this following form , viz. that which doth evidence it self to be a man , is a man ; but a man ( horse he should say , but then the naked untruth of this minor would be too manifest ) doth evidence himself to be a man : therefore a man , ( alias , horse ) doth evidence himself to be a man. risum tenoatis a-cade - mici ? for my part if i were now , as sometime formerly i have been , petulanti splene cachinno , i should hardly hold from laughing at the nugacity of i. o.'s arguments ? but now nucibus faciens quaecunque relictis , being turn'd into that , which leads into more sobriety and seriousness then so , i shall dare to laugh no further then 't is allowed the saints to do at the proud assyrian , that haughtily exalteth his voice , and lifteth his eyes on high against the holy one of israel , and his holy ones , isa. . , . but as for many of those juniors , [ what the seniors may do , i know not ] or younger sort of students and gown-men in the vniversity , to whose use and instruction thou dedicatest part of thy booke , though [ thou being once a man of some authority among them ] they may possibly not be so bold , nor so loud as to laugh out at thy hum-drum doings , and at thy idem per idems , yet they will scarce forbear laughing at them in their sleeves : yet this is thy sophistry i.o. call'd among schollars petitio principij , or a begging of the question before one begins to prove it ; a taking of that to be a ground , principle , or foundation to build on , which is not yet granted , but to be debated ; nor another thing from the thing debated , or inquired after , but the self-same thing , which is in controversie , and as unknown as that , that is disputed . for the question between thee and the qua. is whether the scripture be ( in essereali & cognoscibili ) the word of god or no ? we deny it , thou , being to prove it so to be , wouldest have it first granted , or at least takest it ungranted so to be , and then out of it self , it being granted thee so to be , thou wilt undertake to prove it so ; without which concession , consideration , and resolution , thou even grantest the things thou art to alledge , will be naked , and utterly inefficacious to that purpose ; out of which way of sophistry it seems thou canst not prove it , and in which way though , de jure , thou oughtest not , yet de facto , thou doest prove it , as much , and no whit more , then ( as is said above ) the cock is proved to be a bull , and a horse a man , whilst thy argumentation in many places is no better than this , viz. that which is the word of god doth evidence it self to be the word of god : but the word of god ( scripture or writing thou shouldest say , but dost not every where , lest thy nakedness too much appear ) is the word of god ; therefore the word of god doth evidence it self to be the word of god. in which syllogism ( which is thine if the long loyns of thy loose dispute , and that stragling multitude of thy matter of proof be girded up close into its own mifigured form ) thy minor hath subjectum aliud à substrato , a different subject from that , which was of right to stand there , and to be proved to be the vvord of god , viz. the vvord of god , which is idem cum predicato , the self-same with that , which is predicated of it ; and thy conclusion infers aliud à negato , quite another thing then that which is denied ; for that the vvord of god is by it self evidenced to be the vvord of god is as much undenied , as it is undeniable by us , but that the writing in which the vvord is but held forth and declared , is the vvord of god that is held out and declared by it , this i shall make as bold , and as warrantably against any one to deny , as i should against such a sot , as following a foolshead of his own should assert such a thing , that the glass window thorough which the sun shines , and the lanthorn thorough which the light of the candle shews it self , are of a truth and in very deed ( respectively ) the very sun it self , or candle-light it self that display themselves thorow the said glass or horn , or that the cup-glass by which the vvine gives its colour , and is handed out that men may drink it , is truly and properly the very wine itself , that is given out to be drunk of , and that sparkles and gives out his goodly colour in the glass ; or that the picture of a prince , or eminent person is in esse reali & cognoscibili , and in all propriety of speech so to be called , the very prince or person him self it is but the image of , or the map of the city london , rome , jerusalem , is the very city it represents , so that he bereaves it of its proper name , that will not allow it to to be any otherwise but figuratively so called . now as to the scriptures being the word of god , and evidently known to be so , or evidencing themselves to be so , and that of right , and properly they are to be so called ; all which thou j. o very absolutely averrest , i do here as absolutely deny , confessing , that if they be so , or can be evidenced so to be , they ought accordingly so to be called , or else not , for tum demum propriè dicuntur resfieri quoad nos , cum incipiunt patefieri , what is not so , is not known to be so , much less can challenge that as its proper name ; so that if , in essereali ; they can be made appear to be the word of god , then i give the rest for granted , or if i make it appear that they are not so , then all wise men that ( not for want of ignorance of it ) yet do not , will once grant that they are not so infallibly known ( as j.o. avouches they are ) to be the word of god , and that the word of god is not the proper name of the scriptures , so distinctly and abstractively understood as is above said . and seeing that thou j.o. art first out in the field appearing for them , it s but meet that i should first examine what thou urgest in way of evidence for their being the word of god , and so subjoyn what i have to say truly of them against what falsely thou hast said . and seeing that which thou thy self layest , as the very basis and foundation of thy whole brittle building , and of all that divine authority ascribed by thee to the scripture of its being owned & sub paena to be submitted to as the word of god , on peril of eternal damnation is its divine original , and is best also to be first medled with , that , the bottome being shaken and shewed to be unsound , the body of sticks and straws thou buildest thereon , which is torn and shattered not a little within it self , as it stands untouched in the eye of any intelligent and observant reader , may yet with the more ease , and less labour be shaken to the ground , i shall enter first at the front of thy formidable forces , and begin to undo where thou beginnest to do thy do , which yet will not be so much in one sense to undo , as truly to do right to the truth about the letter , which thou wrongest in uttering so many utter untruths concerning it as thou doest . j. o. the whole authority of the scripture in it self depends solely on its divine original , pag. . this original is the basis and foundation of all its authority , pag. . rep. as to the divine original of the scripture , which is the first and fundamental matter that in the very original or first chapter of thy first treatise thou pleadest on its behalf , as in proof of its divine authority or right to be owned as the word of god ; i deny not but that it is of divine original , and so one way or other is every thing else , that hath a truly good and honest being , yea the very devil himself , as a creature of god , though neither any of his deeds , which are sin , which is deceit and defect , nor himself , quà 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as he is a deceiver , and as immediate an original from god , as any meer writing or scripture in the world hath , this scripture hath , and some little of it such an immediate emanation from god , as neither the most of it self hath , or ever had , nor yet the best that ever any holy man of god was the pen-man of , now hath or ever had , i acknowledge that scripture which is the present subject , had at its first giving out to men ; for a few words of that outward writing the mee● writing or letter of which yet , though the matter still remains , and ever will when all writing fails , is lost and perished out of the world , as well as the original manuscripts of the holy men who wrote the rest ) was written more miraculously at first then with the hands of holy men , namely , some with such fingers as came out from the wall by god● appointment in belshazzars carousing room , dan. . , , , , . and some with no less than the finger of god himself , exod. . . . . , . . . . deuter. . . . but what of all this ? that the meer transcripts of that text , which was so immediately ( though little or none of it so immediately from god , as j.o. contends neither , or at least none at all of it immediate unto us ) that our modern transcripts i say thereof , which is all that is immediate to us , and which j.o. who confesses all the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or first writings to be lost , busies himself to prove to be so , are at all immediately come forth from god to us , or that that letter , which was most immediately penned from gods own hand is thereupon evinced to be truly , and in proper location the word of god , or any more then externa mera , licet vera , imag● , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a meer though true , outward copy , expression or express image , as vox omnis is , and scripture too ad intra , of the word of god , which is that only that is written of , and not the writing of it . this i both dare and do deny again j.o. or any other that asserts it : yet what a deal of stress doth j.o. put upon his strict and strong asseveration of this throughout his first chapter , insomuch that he layes the whole load of his cause , and makes all his labours to lean upon this weak reed , and broken basis , the falseness , shallowness , and sandiness of which , as he manages this matter , viz. the manner of the scriptures coming out from god , by then i shall have a little examined , it will shew it self unable to bear up the weighty fabrick of the scriptures being the word of god , which is the babel that he builds upon it , against a storm . i shall here take notice of some at least of j. o.'s foolish , false , fictitious , and self-contradicting talk about that prime prop and pillar , on which his grand proposition , that the scripture is assuredly and infallibly known to be the word of god , and all his proofs thereof are grounded , viz. the divine original of the scripture . chap. ii. i shall consider this matter of the scriptures original both absolutely , taking notice of a few of thy false and foolish fancies about it ; and also relatively , as it 's laid by thee as the basis of the scriptures divine authority , or being th● word of god. j. o. the laws , doctrines , instructions , stories , promises , prophesies given out by the writers of the scripture , were not their own , conceived in their minds , nor form'd by their reasonings , nor retained in their memories from what they had heard ; nor by any means before-hand comprehended by them , pet. . , . but were all of them immediately from god , so as that there was onely a passive concurrence of their rational faculties in their reception , without any such active obedience to , as by any law they might be obliged , pag. , . rep. many things in this parcel are utterly false , being uttered [ as they are ] of the whole scripture , and all its first pen-men [ for what is said of the old , as to the immediate manner of its giving forth , is said also [ saist thou , pag. . . ] of the new ] insomuch that it s not onely very fond , but savouring also of no small ignorance , both of , and in the scripture , for any such minister of no more then the meer letter of it , as our divine● are , much more below the ministers of the spirit to hold out for truth , or so much as to imagine within themselves ; and as they are utter untruths , so much lesse are they of force to evince that false assertion to be truth , which thou j.o. wouldst conclude from thence , viz that their writings are uncontroulably known to be the word of god. . what a crude conception of thy vain mind is this , that the laws , doctrines , instructions , stories , promises , prophesies written ( which i confess were not their own formed , as many , if not most of thy false doctrines and strange stories about the scriptures are thine own , formed by [ unreasonable ] reasonings ) were not so much as conceived in the minds of the pen-men ? were they not conceived in them by the holy spirit ? and ●ly . by them , so as that ( for the most part at least ) they understood , knew , and believed them as truths , before they committed them to writing , as they were moved by the spirit of god to do , for the use of others ? and though they wrote not but at the will of god , and his spirit pressing them thereunto ; and under the burthen of the word of the lord that lay upon them , till they had discharged themselves of it ; * yet art thou so silly as to conceive they delivered things before they were conceived in them ? so far at least they were conceived in and by them too , as to prove thy saying little less then senselesse and absurd . . vvhereas thou sayest , they were not retained in their memories from what they had heard , nor by any means before-hand comprehended by them : is not that as absolutely absurd and false as the rest ? did they in writing declare things for truth , and teach doctrines , and give out instructions , and tel stories , & relate passages , before they had so much as heard of , or seen , or believed , or embraced what things they wrote & rehearsed , or entertained them as such , or by any means beforehand comprehended them ? is not this directly contrary to what the apostles say , who had , and wrote from the same spirit of faith with them of old , who write thus , cor. . . as it is written psal. . . i believed , and therefore have i spoken ; so we also believe , and therefore speak , &c. joh. . . . that which we have heard , which we have seen with our eyes , look's on , and handled , declare we to you . and when isaiah wrote things of christ , did he not see his glory ? isa. . . iob. . , . & lev. . . . . is iohn commanded to write anything in his booke but what he had seen ? and did he write or bear record of the word of god , or the testimony of iesus , that he did by no means before-hand comprehend , or of any things but those he saw ? and is not seeing one means of comprehending ? . sith thou saist , the things they wrote were not retained in their memories from what they had heard ; did they first heare , and see , and believe , and comprehend , and entertain them into their memories , and then not retain , but let them slip , and quite forget them before they wrote , and then began to write when they had , and not before they had remembred to forget them ? for of the things thou writest , this is the sum ; the whole sum of which , though pet. . , . is cited to add weight to it , which gives not the least dram of evidence to the truth of one tittle of it , is found by such as weigh it in the ballance of right reason , to be a lye , and lighter then vanity it self . belike then according to thy fancy , paul when he wrote to timothy to bring his books , and p●rchments , & cloak left at troas with carpus , wrote that , not as a matter conceived in his mind , or retain'd in his memory , but as a thing forgotten , that he had no comprehension of afore-hand ? did he not write that and a hundred more matters , as retain'd in his memory : and though he wrote them as mov'd by the spirit , in the wisdom of which he liv'd & walk't , and did all he did , as he saw service in it ; yet did he not write of his revelations and temptations after them , by the thorn in the flesh ? cor. . . &c. and of his many perils and hazards he had gone through , and his whippings , and stonings , and shipwracks , and other sufferings and services , cor. . as things retained in his memory , though some of them fourteen years behinde ? and when he wrote of the fornication , cor. . and the divisions cor. . that were among the corinthians , did he not write of them as things he had by hear-say , and common report ? and did he not retain in his memory what was told him by them of the house of cloe , and thereupon wrote to them thereof , as of a matter heard , remembred , and afore-hand believed , ( for l partly believe it , quoth he ) and comprehended aforehand ? vvhat innumerable instances of the like fort of stories written , as retained in the memories of holy vvriters , might be given out of both the old testament and the new ! but this little is enough , if thou be not wilfully blind , to bring thee into a remembrance of thy babling about the bible , of the writings whereof thou writest , as if thou hadst never read it all , but in a dream . and when matthew the publican wrote of his own being called from the receit of custom , and of his entertaining christ in his house , matth. . . did he it not on the account of his retaining that passage in his memory ? and whereas thou saist they wrote all immediately from god , so as that there was onely a passive concurrence of their rational faculties in their reception , without any such active obedience as by any law they might be obliged to . i say , thou renderest thy self as ridiculous o● reasonlesse in this thy reasoning , as if thou wert one , that had never read any otherwise then at random : for hadst thou been as observans as thou art oscitant in thy readings and writings of the scripture , thou wouldst have seen and remembred that several stories , proverbs , doctrines , prophesies , and other parcels and passages , as they stand recorded in thy rule or canon , were not written so immediately from god as thou imaginest , that in the first reception , as well as in the first scription of some of them , there was an active , and not onely a passive concurrence of the rational faculties of the writers , and also such an active obedience as by some law they might be obliged to . . how immediately from god dost thou deem , were the writings of sundry of those genealogies in the letter of the iewish law , about which there are , among many such ministers as thy self , such foolish questions and contentions , and endless strivings , which paul bids those two ministers , viz timothy and titus , not to give heed to , but avoid as unprofitable , and vain , and fables , and things that minister matter of question , and vain jangling , rather then godly edifying ? tim. . . . tit. . . and also of those chronologies , and nomenclators , and ( to us impertinent ) catalogues of names of such as came out of babylon , at first with zorobabel , and then with ezra , and of such as had married strange vvives , and of such as sealed the covenant , and of the levites in their several offices and orders of singing-men , and porters , and priests , that could not find their pedigree ; and of the children of solomons servants , and of the builders of the wall , and many more particular nominations and enumerations of that sort , that are in the chronicles , ezra , and nehemiah ? which whatever use they were of under the iewish paedagogie , make little to us now , as to a punctual observation of them ; much less so much as thou i.o. of whose foundation , rule , cannon , and standard , they are no small part , supposest , insomuch that on any corruption supposed therein , as there well may be , and contradiction too , if the books of samuel , the kings , and chronicles , be critically , or but carefu●ly considered , sam. . , , . sam. ●● . . compared with chron. . , , . the certainty of all saving doctrine is consequently supposed to be lost : i say , how immediately are these writings and things written from god without any active concurrence of the rational faculties of the writers in the w●iting of them ? may it not very well be supposed that some of these things were written at first ( if by such holy men , as all the iews were not , that were very zealous of the letter of the law , and in writing the deeds done in their nation ) yet at least in such wise onely , as holy men may , without immediate reception of every tittle [ as thou twatlest they did ] from god , and by the active concurrence of their rational faculties , write a story of what is done in their sight , or of what they have by hear-say , or find in the books of the chronicles of things done in such or such nations ? may it not be supposed that some of those stories , and genealogies , and chronicles , and catalogues , and proverbs , and prophesies , pertaining to the old testament , and some of the stories of the new too , were written ( though not without the spirit moving the holy men to it that liv'd in the spirit , yet ) so as not without a retaining them in their memories , and an active concurrence of their rational faculties , and such an active obedience , as by some law they might be obliged to ? yea , how frivolously foolish art thou in the uttering of thy self ? is not the very moving of the spirit it self , in which thou ownest they wrote , and the law of the spirit obliging thereto ? . and what thinkest thou of the history of iohn , mark , which some have in that respect stiled sacrum furt●m , a kind of holy theft ; is it not possible but that it might be some abbreviation of matthew's story concerning christ , there being little in it but what is well-nigh word for word in the other ? though some ancients have related it to be given forth by peter , and by mark onely written from his mouth , either of which if it was , then was it not so immediately from god , as thou i.o. guessest , as to the writing of it , the pen-man taking it either out of anothers writing , or else from the mouth of another man , that had it more immediately then he , and yet neither of them so immediately from god , as that there was onely a passive concurrence of their rational faculties in the reception of it ; for whether it were mark writing out of matthew , or from peter's mouth , or of himself , as it seemed good to him to set down , 't was but a history of such things , as he was well acquainted with , either as an eye or ear-witness thereof , or as one that had it sufficiently attested to , for him to undertake to write it out as truth ; and so not without an active concurrence of his rational faculties in the reception of what he wrote , as well as not without a moving thereto by the holy spirit , in which he lived , and in the light of which he saw it might be serviceable . and on such an account as this , rationally reckoning within himself , it might be useful so to do , luke the physician wrote his two histories of the acts of christ , and of his apostles ; in which book called the acts , many , if not most of the matters mentioned by him , were about paul , whose companion he was in several of his travels , excepting some passages about the beginning of it , concerning all the apostles ; and some touches concerning barnabas and silas , and some others , upon occasion of their being here and there with paul in some services ; but as for the apostles after whom his book is called the acts of the apostles , there 's scarce the one hundredth part of what they all did , nor of those travels and sufferings that they sustained , medled with at all by luke , who took notice of little more then what he knew , as he was a fellow - traveller with paul. and that his writings were of no other nature then thus , appears plainly by his preface to the first of them , which ye call , the gospel of st. luke , where luke . , , , . he writes on this wife : forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things , which are most surely believed among us , even as they delivered them unto us , which from the beginning were eye-witnesses and ministers of the word , it seemed good to me also , having had a perfect understanding of things from the beginning , to write unto thee in order● most excellent theophilus , that thou mightest know the certainty of those things wherein thou hast been instructed . which words , [ many have taken in hand to declare what was delivered to them by the eye-witnesses , and it seemed good to me also to write to thee , &c. ] sound forth , that howbeit the spirit of god might move him so to do for service sake to the truth , yet as others had done before him ( of whom whether mark were one yea or nay it matters not much to me ) so himself , as it seemed good to him , wrote a story of certain truths not upon the account of such a meer passive immediate reception thereof from god by inspiration of every tittle into him , as he wrote , as thou doest , without any conception of the things in his minde , or retaining them in his memory , or by any means before hand comprehending them , but rather , as it were , at second hand , as they were heard and beleeved , and unde●stood by him , as true matters of fact from the mouthes or writings of such as were eye witnesses thereof , and did first deliver them , and so to the confutation of thy vain figment , not without a concurrence of his rational faculties in the receiving of what he wrote . . what thinkest thou of those proverbs of solomon , whose proverbs were . in all , not . of which are contained in your canon , and his songs a hundred and not five of which are come to your cognizance , king. . . . or those which stand in your standard from the very first inserting of them there , stand but at second hand at best , as they were copied out of , whether the first manuscript , or some remote , and more uncertain transcript , who can tell● by the men of hezekiah some nine or ten generations after him , see prov. . . were these received by the writers that affixed them to that ye call your canon , so immediately from god , as thou dreamest , without any but a passive concurrence ; as things not by any means comprehended by these men of hezekiah before they wrote them ? . what thinkest thou of such parts and parcels of thy so called canon as are each of them written in two several places or books of thy bible ? one of which places and the respective parcels whether histories or prophesies , or praises therein recited are at most but repetitions and meer transcriptions out of the other , with some such additions , or ablations , or ( alterations of more than titles and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) as is not unusually made among transcribers , of which sort for instance in a few , i refer thee , and all such as scrape so unskilfully as thou doest about the scriptures being in every title as it now stands in your copies immediately written from god by inspiration , and without meditation , or any means of comprehending the things they wrote beforehand by the writers thereof , to consider and compare psal. . with psal. . and sam. . . with psal. . also king. . . c. . c. . with isa. . isa. . isa. . isa . also king. . c. . throughout , with ier. . ier. . by which places perused , howbeit every word of this is asserted by j.o. to be written as immediately from gods own mouth , as any of it , it is yet plain and evident that some of it was but copied and transcribed out of other some , and such a useless repetition of the same over and over again , as neither need be , nor would be , if the bible , as consistent of neither more nor less than what is ordinarily bound up in it , had be●n intended by either god , or the holy pen-men of the sundry parcels thereof to be the inalterable constant canon , and only steady standard for all succeeding ages of men universally to the worlds end . . moreover what thinkest thou of such scripture prophesies and epistles , as were first written , and pend not by the holy men themselves , that were moved to give them forth by inspiration , but by such as wrote them , not mmediately from god , but from the mouthes of such only as indited them , as the spirit moved , of which there are not a few , but how many exactly who knows ? since evident it is that those men after whom they are denominated did not at first write all their own prophesies and epistles with their own hands , witness much at least of ieremiahs prophesie , that was written not by himself but baruch his ordinary scribe as jeremiah dictated to him . see ier. . . . , , . baruch . . &c. witness also pauls epistle to the romans , which though indited by him , yet tertius was the pen-man thereof , rom. . . which verse tertius himself it seems added as he wrote . besides many , if not most of his epistles were sent not from paul alone sigillatim , but from himself , and such other of his fellow-labourers , as were with him at such times , and places , when and from whence they were sent , viz. some from him and timothy , cor. . . col. . . philip. . . philem. . . some from him and silas and timothy , thess. . . thes. . . one from him and sosthenes , cor. . . of which , which of the two or the three was the scribe , though we beleeve paul to be ( under god ) the chief authour , who knows ? one from him and all the brethren that were with him at the writing thereof , gal. . , . which is the only one to any whole churches , that we have clear evidence of that he wrote with his own hands , of which he sayes , gal. . . yee see how large a letter i have written to you with mine ownhand , and verse . henceforth let no man trouble me , which very expression of his , verse . intimates that it was not very usual with him to write his letters to the churches with his own hand , but only signed them when others had wrote them for him , therefore he often intimate● his love to them under his own hand , and no more . see cor. . . col. . . . and . . the salutation of me paul with mine own hand , which is the token in every epistle , so i write ; now it being so , were all the writings and things written received so immediately from god , as thou imaginest , by the first pen-men with out retaining any thing in their memories of what they had learned , or comprehending them by any means beforehand , or without any but a meer passive concurrence of their rational faculties in the reception thereof ? what ignorance is this ? besides , whether with pauls own hand or any others his epistles were written , some things therein were therein spoken to the churches by himself , as delivering his judgement by permission only , and not by commandement from god , by him not the lord , to the rest , quoth he , speak i , and not the lord , cor . . . which as it contradicts j. o's . talk in the parcel above cited , so also it overturns that talk and fabulous piece of praie as to some parts of it ) and shall here stand as an answer to it , which he as ignorantly utters , pag. , , . viz. they were carried out by the holy ghost to speake , deliver , write all that , and nothing but that to a very tittle , that was so brought unto them , they only received the words from god himself : every aspect of the written word , i.e. writing with j.o. is equally divine , and as immediately from god as the voice wherewith , or whereby he spake to , or in the prophets , and is therefore accompanied with the same authority in it self , and unto us . what hath been spoken thus of the scripture of the old testament , must be also affirmed of the new , with this addition of advantage and preheminen●● , that it received its beginning of being spoken by the lord himself . . seeing it is so , as is abovesaid , that all was not written by the hands of the inspired authors themselves at the very first , but much by such scribes only as wrote from them as dictated to by them to whom god gave out this minde , and so wrote , not so immediately from god as thou dreamest , but that they might mispell or mistake in more than titles , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( most good men being but bad schollers and scribes as to inch more humane earthly skill as your schollership lyes in ) how absolutely doth this overturn that other utter untruths , that thou tellest twice over to the manifesting of thine own folly more fully in uttering twice such falshood not so much as once observing it , viz. pag. , . that the word ( which with thee still is the scripture ) is come forth unto us [ mark unto us ] from god without the least mixture or interveniency of any medium obnoxious to fallibility , as is the wisdome , truth , integrity , knowledge and memory of the best of all men . but if what i have shewed above did not contradict , and give check to this saying of thine about the scriptures coming out immediately from god unto us , who live so many ages from the last person , who received any part of it immediately from god ; thou whose great masterpiece of business it is throughout thy whole book to say and unsay , and contradict thy self , and run in rounds , overturnest and statly contradictest it thy self , saying , pag. . that we have not the scripture from god immediately our selves ; in which self-confutation and contradiction of pag. . by pag. . thou canst not to continue long neither , but as one delighting to dance round , and shew how well skill'd thou art in tracing to and fro about the scripture ; thou ( to go round again ) returnest , and reiteratest , pag. . that falsity uttered by thee , pag. . in this wise over again , viz. the scriptures of the old and new testament were immediately and entirely given out by god himself ; mark , as if god himself had wrote it every tittle with his own finger ; whereas how little god himself wrote i have shewed above , and how such as were immediately inspired ( the mediation of whose hand writing in what they also wrote comes between god and us ) did not write it all immediately with their own hands , but men that took what they said from them in writing by the active improvement of their knowledge , wisdome , skill in writing , memory , and other rational faculties ; so far is the text from coming immediately from god to the men of those cities and places that lived where and when it was written ; but how much farther from being immediately and entirely , without any medium obnoxious to fallibility , from god to us , who live so many ages off unto whom that text j.o. talks of , is descended perhaps at the hundreth hand , through the hands of who knows what unskilful , careless , forgetful scribes or transcribers ? the very best of which j.o. at best confesses , to be but fallible , and that it was possible they might , and also did mistake , so as that failings fell out among them , p. . nevertheless on he goes thus concerning that scripture or writings , viz. that gods minde is in them represented unto us without the least interveniency of such mediums and wayes as were capable of giving change or alteration to the least 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or syllable . . whereas thou sayest there was onely a passive concurrence of the rational faculties of the writers , without any such active obedience as by any law they might be obliged to , though i have shewed thee that all the first writers were not inspired , but some wrote from their lips that were so , and so were , though never so skilful , obnoxious to fallibility , yet as thou intendest it of such prophets , apostles , evangelists , as wrote their own prophesies , epistles , histories , proverbs , psalms , &c. with their own hands as they were moved by the spirit , it s utterly untrue that thou affirmest , for the holy men of god who either wrote their scripture with their own hands , or dictated to such as they required to pen it from their mouthes , as themselves spake from the mouth of god , out of which came all that wisdome , knowledge , and understanding , that is thereby uttered forth , were such as were not so meerly pasive as thou praiest , in the reception of what they wrote without any active concurrence of their rational faculties , but in order to their receiving the word , and manifestation of the minde and will of god to them which was written , had both then , and long before also an active concurrence thereof , and such an active obedience to god as all men are by the law of god , i.e. the light in the conscience obliged to , whereby they were made , and became first holy men before they were used by god in such an holy work as preaching and wrriting out his minde to others , and were brought into the thing or life it self they spake and wrote of , and were purged from lusts and defilements , and iniquities , and foolish , and unlearned questions , and such prophane and vain bablings as ye are yet exercised in at your vniversities about the bible , as well as about other books of humane businesses , that in comparison of that holy truth , that is in the bible handled , are but meer baubles , which a man being purged from , tim. . , , , , , . he shall be a vessel of honour sanctified and meet for the masters use , and prepared unto every good work . yea their prophets that spake out that holy doctrine , and soul-saving truth that is declared in the scriptures ( what ever some of them might be , that were exercised in the copying out of sundry of those ( to us ) more unnecessary , and unprofitable parts thereof , viz. the endless legal , genealogical , chronological catalogues of mens names , not so needful to us to know ) were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 holy men of god , pet. . ult . and such to whose souls knowledge and wisdome , and the fear of god was pleasant , who cried after it , and lifted up their voices to god for it , and were in such love with it as to wait on god for it , out of whose mouth it comes , and daily at the posts of wisdomes house ( which your vniversities are not yet acquainted with ) and sought it as silver , and searched for it as for hid treasure , and though to prophesie was a gift of god , and such as have it are so passive as to receive it from the giver , and none can receive any thing of it , except it be given him from above , joh. . and though it is in no wise to be purchased by mens mony at schools , and colledges , as our accademical simon magus's suppose , who to obtain and buy all the gifts , whereby they prophesie to men , for mony , and sell them for mony again when they have done , yet was it a gift obtained in the way of such active obedience to god , as by the said law , or light of god in the heart , men stand obliged to , and to be coveted , and desired , and was given in a certain way that ye are so far out of , that ye hate it , of holy waiting on god , and learning of him alone in silence in all subjection in order thereunto ; for which work there are now as there were of old ( but those are not oxford and cambridge vniversities as it were schools and nurseries of young prophets at iericho and bethel , [ alias , by interpretation ] the house of god , where truth , and true wisdom , and true religion was , and is learnt , as truly and fully , as it is falsly taught , or rather fully and universally forgotten at our now vniversities , or nursing-mothers of that wisdom and religion from beneath , which is but earthly , sensual , or animal and deceitful : see k. . . . king. . . k. . . yea in order to gods manifestation of himself to men in such wise as he will not to world , that lyes in wickedness , it 's required that men keep his commandments , so far as they are made known already in the light in the conscience , ioh. and seperate themselves from the sensual ones that have not the spirit , and not together with them from the truth , prov. . , . and that they come out of all that defileth , and become holy ; for no defiled thing falls into wisdom ; but in all ages ( this as well as any of old , though ye own none to be now in rerum natura ) entring into holy souls , she maketh them friends of god , and prophets , wisd. . , , , , , , , . but the reason why so few priests are ever made true prophets , is because for the most part they are more prophane then other people , from of old , and much more now ; insomuch that , as heretofore , i mind at present , but two of all that numerous tribe , race , and party of priests , that the jewish church was fill'd with , that became prophets , viz. ieremiah and ezekiel , ier. . . ezek. . . so now velduo , vel nemo , of all sorts of persons , few or none of our academical , levitical race of rabbi●s arrive to so much honour and happiness as to become obedient to the faith ; yet so far many of them came in the primitives times , notwithstanding i can't find that ever any of them commenced prophets , evangelists , or apostles ; much less are many to be found so highly graduated , as to become such in the true church or school of christ at this day ; they are not upon the tower , upon their watch , toward the light. they hearken not with habbakkuk to what god saith in them . hab. . . they stand not in the lords counsel , nor receive the word from his own mouth , but as the false prophets of old , ier. . ( in which respect they were false prophets , that profited not at all , and such as god was against , though speaking true words ) they steal the word they speak out of the true prophets writings , whom god sent , and spake to , when he neither sent , nor ever said the same unto them , and so run crying , thus saith the lord , as ours do , hear the word of the lord , as you shall find it in such a text , such a chapter , such a verse ; when they never heard god's voice at any time themselves , nor saw his shape . they hate and fight against gods own counsel , the light in the conscience , which would lead them to purity in their own persons ; and so never come to see , much less to shew his secret , which is onely with them that fear him psal. . whose sear , which is the beginning of wisdom , is to depart from the evil , which the light discovers ; and so as none can bring a clean thing out of an unclean , so none can receive much of a clean thing into an unclean . but as isaiah who was of unclean lips , had his lips first toucht , and his iniquity taken away , before he was sent of gods errand , isa. . and ieremiah was sanctified to the work of prophesie , ier. . so there must be more holiness of truth found among their holinesses , the pope , and all the priests and praters for pay thorowout all christendom , before they know how to prophesie themselves , or tell truly ( as much as they are found , from the text of their transcripts , tatling to the world of what they know not ) how and in what manner gods prophets prophesie . thou addest i.o. pag. . that in writing they were not enabled by any habitual light , knowledge , or conviction of truth , to declare gods mind and will , but onely acted as they were immediately moved by him ; their hand in what they wrote , was no more at their own disposal , then the pen in the hand of an expert writer . and p. . that no rational apprehensions had any place in their writing . and p. . that this was the first spring of the scripture , and beginning of its emanation from the counsel of god , it was brought by the power of the holy ghost into its organs and instruments us'd for the declaration of it ; and that it was not left to their understandings , wisdoms , minds , memories , to order , dispose , and give it out . but that they were born , acted , moved to write all , and nothing but that , to every tittle , that was so brought to them . and that they invented not words themselves , but the words were immediately supplyed to them ; and that in writing they were but passive instruments for the reception and representation of words ; and that every apex of the written word , ( i.e. writing , secundum te ) was as immediately from god to the writers , as his voice in the prophets , p. , . and p. . that they were but as an instrument of musick , giving a sound according to the hand onely of him that strikes it . rep. these things are false , being written by thee of all the writings , and first writers of the scripture universally , as they are without exception and distinction ; for so indistinct and confused art thou in thy delivery of thy mind about the bible , that though it be a bulk of heterogeneous writings , compiled together by men , taking what they could find of the several sorts of writings , that are therein , and trussing them all up into one touch-stone , crouding them into a canon , or standard for the trial of all spirits , doctrines , truths , and by them alone : yet thou speak'st so homogeneously of it , as if whatever can be predicated of any , may be as properly predicated of it all ; yea whatever thou sayest ( falsly ) of the writing , thou denominatest the self-same of it all , and every apex and tittle , yea every tittle and iota with thee is no less then the word of the great god , wherein the ●ternal concernment of souls lyes . p. , . and so every part of it a rule , and the perfect rule ; for so 't was with thee when there were none but moses five books , and 't is but so with thee now so much is added : so every apex equally divine , and as immediately from god as any of it , yea and as the voice , whereby he spake in the prophets , pag. . but i say , as written by thee so universally of the writers and meer writing of the scriptures ( as they are ) they are ( for the most part ) as false , as that foregoing ; and that i have said above concerning the writing of much of the scripture at first , as it stands in your bibles , by scribes that wrote either out of other copies , or from the mouths of men more immediately inspired , or from what was commonly reported , and generally believed , and what they had heard , as delivered to them by more immediate eye and ear witnesses , and what they retain'd in their memories , and some way or other comprehended beforehand , may stand as a sufficient answer to this parcel also , wherein according to thy wonted habitual darkness , ignorance , and contradiction to the truth , thou deniest the pors-men and holy prophets in their writings to be enabled to declare , and write what they wrote by any habitual light , knowledge , or conviction of the truth ; as if they wrote what they neither saw , nor heard , nor knew , nor believed to be true ; but besides all sight and understanding , discerning , mental conception , meditation , rational apprehension , faith , or any manner of antecedent comprehension of the truths they told , as if they were all acted , and us'd in the writing of every tittle by the lord , just no otherwise but as a musical instrument in a man's hand , or the pen itself by an expert writer , which can yeeld no more then a meer passive concurrence , having no principle of life within it self from whence to act any thing at all , or to move a hairs breadth in any business , but as it 's mov'd ; or as some stark dead corps , which can neither stir , nor stand , but as extrinsecally born up , and carried forth , because deest aliquid intus : whereas ( as i have shew'd above ) some of them wrote not by immediate inspiration , or bringing of the things into their minds so by the spirit ; but mediately , that is , from the mouths or writings of such as received the truths more immediately , as they were inspired , & wrote , as they also spake , no other , things then what by some means or other they beforehand comprehended , & no other then what they heard , and saw , and believed , and retained in their minds and memories , whereinto the spirit of truth , and the truths he guided them into ( which the world receives not ) were both received , conceived , and entertained ; yea , and i here add , no other then such as in the same light were more or less seen , known , understood , and believed before any scripture , at all was , though 't was by the same way , then which i know no other that the scripture speaks of , of knowing god or christ , viz of internal , spiritual revelation , matth. . . ioh. . . cor. . , , , . gal. . . did paul believe , or witness , or write any other things when he wrote with his own hands what was immediately revealed & in spired into him by the same holy spirit , then what by the same spirit [ in which and no other way all the things of god are known , and ever were ] holy men of god believed , owned , witnessed , wrote , and both in their writings and speakings acknowledged to be the truth ? see act . . . , . cor. . . . did he write any other things then what they to whom he wrote might , and did read elsewhere , even in the light and spirit within themselves , and did thereby acknowledge to be the truth ? and did not he himself , before he wrote them in the movings of the spirit , acknowledge them to be the truth himself ? and did he in the light in which he liv'd and saw them , acknowledge them to be the truth , and yet was not enabled by any habitual light , knowledge , or conviction of the truth , to declare them in writing , as he did , but wrote as one ignorant , in the dark , unbelieving , and unconvinced of the truths he wrote , and as senselesse , unintelligently , and passively , without any active obedience to the spirit pressing him , or yeelding any but a meer passive influence and concurrence of his rational faculties in the worker , as a meer dead thing that is utterly devoid of all kind of life , motion , or principle of action within it self , and uncapable of any action at all , or motion , but as it is acted ab extra , by some forensical force or compulsion , as a musical , woodden instrument , or a pen by the hand of the writer ? what a weak , crooked , crazy piece of conception of scripture in this of thine ? of which i may truly say there was not so much active concurrence of the rational faculties of the scribes in their writing of the scripture , but there is as little in this of thine , who writest as if all the prophets of god that ever spake and wrote what of his minde they received from his own mouth by standing in his counsel , and hearkning to what he said in them , and waited on him to know and understand his will and word first , that they might do it in the particular in their own persons , and ( as moved or commanded ) in obedience to him declare it to others , were absolutely and meerly as passive as balaams ass was , whose mouth miraculously was opened , and his minde indued with rational faculties ( supernatural to him as he was a beast ) to reason out the case with his unrighteous master , and to reprove the madness of that prophet ; and as meerly passive in their work of prophesie , as caiphas the high priest was , whose mouth was opened to speak truer than he was aware of , and to prophesie of a thing out of his irrational faculties , that was as high above the reach of the best rational faculties he had ( being a man degenerate from pure perfect reason and in the fall ) as fallen mans best reason is above the brute beasts of the field ; for as herod and pontius pilate did with wicked hands the things that god before determined should come to pass , fulfilling the prophets words in slaying christ , little thinking they served the truth as they did in it ( as the assyrian in the like case ) they meant not so , nor did their heart think otherwise than to destroy , isa. . , , . act. . , . act. . , . act. . , , . so that priest with a wicked heart , intentionally to counsel them to murther christ , had his mouth prepared to prophesie a precious truth , which , as so , he spake not of himself , so as one that had the light , knowledge , or conviction of the truth , but besides himself as the ass in the other case , numb . . , , . joh. . . , , , . joh. . . whereas most evident it is that the holy men of god , who wrote any part of the scripture by immediate inspiration with their own hands ( to let pass that which some wrote for and from them as dictated to by their mouthes ) were in the light , sight , knowledge , prae-conviction , comprehension , beleef , and acknowledgement of the truth habitually , and were thereby inabled to declare it , and from thence did declare it accordingly , as in the wisdome of the spirit they saw it serviceable , and as by it they were moved so to do . i am not ignorant that they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and ( as so ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divinely inspired , and ( as so ) infallible , and acted , born , carried by the holy spirit in what they spake and wrote about which matters what a mighty marvelling , and hideous ditty , and wonderful deal of do doth j.o. make in his muddy minde , of which ( since he is so amazed that any such matter should be so much as pretended to in those dayes i may likely speak more particularly in another place . but what of all this ? because they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , moved by the holy spirit in what they did will it therefore follow they were meerly passive in their work , without any such active obedience as was in the light required of them , and without any exercise at all , save such as was passive , of their rational faculties therein , without being inabled by any habitual light , &c. or use of their own understanding , wisdome , memories , or the like in any writings of what they so wrote ? as if they actively entred no more than stocks and stones into the services they were set on work in ? surely though they were instruments and organs into which the word was brought by the spirit as they waited on the lord , for the revelation and manifestation of it to them , yet they were living organs and instruments not only 〈◊〉 to the natural , but also to that supernatural or spiritual life of god , the things of which they wrote and declared , and so were as it were subordinate efficients and inferiour agents , concurring by the use and exercise of their reason and rational faculties , which grace and the spirit of god perfects , heightens , and delivers from the defects therein contracted by transgression , and doth not destroy . and howbeit i deny not still but that the prophets that pend any scripture were passive , as i said before , in the reception of the minde of god manifested to them in the light , so far as the receiver of a gift is to the giver , from whom he can command , nor have nothing unless it be given him , and were no otherwise active , than as beggars ( who are not to be chusers ) waiting at the door of wisdom , and on god in the light within to see what he will give , and in order to the obtaining it , yet when the light and word was given out , they were so far active ( so all are not whereupon many go without it ) as waiters are , when they receive what is given , and also far active as according to the measure of the gift of grace , or knowledge received , when the spirit moved them so to do , to go forth , and minister either by preaching , or writing , or what way they found their call to serve in , some one way , some another , and every individual , sometimes one way , sometimer another , as paul said , rom. . , . having gifts differing according to the grace given , whether prophesis , let us prophesie according to the proportion of faith , i.e. each his own proportion and measure ( not as you divines , who have a common analogy of faith , or stock of unsavoury divinity among you , according to which ye minister ) or ministry let us wait on our ministring , or he that teacheth on teaching , or exhorteth on exhortation , &c. which things , whether done by voice or writing is all one , they were not to do but as the spirit moved or acted them , yet in both were they not only acted by the spirit , but subordinately active with him in those several ministrations , as good stewards of the manifold grace of god , speaking , ministring , whether in speech or scripture , as the oracles of god in all faithfulness , which is required in stewards , cor. . , . pet. . , . who though it is their master that doth all supremely by them , and acts by them , and speaks and writes , and manages all affairs by their ministration , as the spirit of the father doth in his saints and children , yet by his power and the gift of his grace received [ in the juncture and very period of receiving of which they were passive ] they concurred actively in the work of writing , as the saints do in the working out of their own salvation , when god hath once wrought in them to will and to do of his own good pleasure , phil. . , . so that of the most immediate writers of the scriptures from the mouth of god , it might be said as it is of all saints , licetnec per se operantur , nec aequaliter co-operantur , yet aliqualiter saltèm , etiam & activè concurrunt cum causa operante , they wrought and wrote neither wholly of themselves , nor equally with the spirit , yet even actually concurred with him in the act of writing , so as a pen or musical instrument doth not , which is not subjectum capax , a subject capable to act or move actively in the works of man , any more than a stone can concur actively to the throwing of it self . and being , though but organs or instruments , as thou sayest the prophets were , into whom the words they wrote were brought , yet sith living organs or instruments alive to god by participation of his divine nature to the things of that life and nature , they were consequently active organs and instruments , and subordinate agents and efficients , and as well willingly acting , as acted therein , in the day of gods power , wherein his people are a willing people , as dead organs and instruments cannot be . for sith vita est actus corporis organici quatenus organicum , life of every kinde is no less than an act or operative power of every thing that hath it to act or work such actions as are agreeable to its nature , the life of god in such as by the light of christ in whom is the life , and whose life is the light of men , joh. . , . joh. . are led and born thereunto , is an act or spiritual operative power to do and perform such actions as are suitable to man , before he dyed by transgression , and according to the will of god revealed , as posita anima in corpore organico ( quâ tali ) sequitur vita , & posita vitâ sequitur operatio motio &c. naturalis , so posito spiritu in animâ recipiente sequitur & vita & actio spiritualis . so the holy men that wrote the scripture as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. inspired and moved by the holy spirit which brought the truth unto them , he pressed them to write , were not according to j. o's vain figment of them , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , acted and hurried like some stone thrown , or pen handled which is meerly and only passive in what is done , but acted , as all saints are in their measures , to that of writing his truth or any other good work when called by him to it i.e. not without , but with such an active obedience , as by his law or light within they are obliged to , not without an active concurrence of rational faculties reduced to their primitive perfection , not without , but with ability thereto from an habitual light , knowledge and conviction of truth , and use of their wisdomes and understandings , memories , not without , but with an aforehand containing and comprehending of the truths they wrote , in their mindes as things they had heard , seen , beleeved , acknoledged , &c. god who who is the giver of every good gift , and the chief author and actor of all good works in his saints , isa. . using every instrument according to what he hath fitted it for , a beast as a beast , a man as a man , a saint as a saint , a prophet as a prophet , and not a man a saint , a prophet , a spiritual man as a stock or stone , but being a reasonable creature , and prepared by him naturally with such a soul such faculties , and supernaturally and spiritually with such gifts and graces , as whereby he is capable to act , when by him commanded , and a body suitable as a fit instrument to move in such a work , as writing his will revealed , when it is revealed also to be his will that he should write it , he uses him so to write as that though himself be the principal or primum movens , not only in act● primo as he gives the pomer , faculties , gift , graces , &c. but in actu secundo also , he holds the hand of the scrib● , so that he would else draw but mishapen characters , and guides , assists , and acts in and by him , yet he lets the action bear its denomination from its next and immediate agent , which is not god himself , who gives the word for the writing of what he will have written in the penning of the scripture ( except that little , i.e. the ten words as is abovesaid ) but men as being moved by him to write or to dictate to others whom they willed to write from their mouthes , so that the immediate spring and emanation of the scripture was not from god , but men who were the agents in it under him , which overturns j. o's apish opinion of every apex of the writing being equally divine , and as to its original as immediately from god , and of the same authority in itself , and to us , i e. of being received as his word , sub paena , &c. on pain of peril of eternal condemnation , as his voice in the prophets which indeed was immediately from himself , and his own witness ; whereas the letter was mostly but the immediate work of man , witnessing for god as moved by him , as first given out , and as we now have it by so remote away of transcription , welnigh as far from being immediately from god to us as j.o. imagines it is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and as it is with saints indeed when they pray , beleeve preach , write , &c. as moved by the lord , it is not denominated ever by the author of it all , which is god , who speaks and works all in such , and is in such of a truth , cor. . but the saints who are said to pray , beleeve , preach , write , so was it in the giving out of that scripture or writing that was of old called the bible , which j.o. calls his canon , to which no title more must ever be counted ; which was not , nor is not so immediate from god to us as his own voice is , that is at this day to be heard in the heart , but onely mediantibus manuscriptionibus , yea by the interveniency of mediums , and hands of transcribers and translators obnoxious to fallibility , and capable to give change and alteration in more then the least syllables and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 's , but at the first it was no more immediately from god than the writings of his moved and inspired prophets are at this day , whom he stirs up to reprove the madness of the priests and false prophets , which is as that was , but the spiritual mans testimony for god , though specially assisted by him in it ; concerning all whom from the beginning of the world to this day , so many as have spoken or written , or done any thing for the truth in his name , i here say , and so conclude as to that above . certum est no ● velle cum volumus dicere cum dicimus , praedicare cum praedicamus , scribere cum scribimus , facere cum facimus , sed deus est , qui facit ut faciamus . j.o. thou addest pag. . they invented not words themselves suitable to the things they had learned , but only expressed the words they received , their words were not their own but immediately supplied unto them from god himself , and so they gave out the writing of uprightness , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 words of truth . rep. and yet it 's said , eccles. . , , , . as concerning the writings and proverbs of solomon the wise , the preacher which very place thou alludest to , though thou quotest it not , which if thou hadst , there 's few so unwise , but they might see thy folly therein , for that scripture clearly confutes thy self who touchest at it , that in teaching the people knowledge ( as he did by those writings and books of proverbs he gave forth ) he took good heed , and sought out , and set in order many proverbs ( even thousands more , besides above a thousand songs more then are systematiz'd into thy standing-canon ) and that he sought to find out acceptable words , or words of delight , or rather ( as thy self expoundest it more clearly to the confounding of thy self , as if thou wert accustomed and wonted to that work and course of self-contradiction words of will or choice , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; all which if it be not tantamount to this , he invented words suitable to what he himself had framed , whereby to utter and express the wisdom he received , to people in writing , [ and yet what was written , was upright too , and words of truth , not beside the spirit of truth ] and so i.o. consequently confuted by i.o. himself about the scripture ; ( if the scripture it self had not confuted him ) then self-confounding , which i.o. is so often found in , shall pass for me for current confirmation ; and confusion , which i.o. is a most eminent author of , shall go from henceforth for good order ; and to dance the rounds , as i. o. often doth in his , shall be held the rightest way of sound doctrine , and of all divinity disputation : for as if he had not been satisfied with his own gain-saying , what he uttered concerning their not inventing of words , and non-improving of their understandings , wisdoms , minds , memories , p. . to order , dispute , give out what truth they wrote , in such words as they saw best suited for the things they had learned of god , by saying to the contrary , thus : viz. their mind and understanding were used in the choice of words they did use , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 words of will or choice . i.o. [ to go round again ] gain-sayes this latter saying by which he had once gain-sayed the former , returning to his former again , ex. . s. . where his latine words englisht are in this [ foolish ] wise , viz. to express the sence they conceived of the mind and will of god , the words in those tongues in which by the command and ordination of god the scripture is written , were both conceived and disposed by the holy spirit , and not permitted or left to the wisdom , and will , or arbitrement of the writers themselves . * so of this sound piece of round doctrine of i.o. this is the sum : they that wrote the scripture , did not invent , chuse , or seeke words , nor was it left to their minds , understandings , will , wisdoms , &c. to express the truth ; yet ( to go round again ) they did use words of will or choice , their mind and understanding were used in the choice of words ; yet [ to go round again ] to express the will and mind of god , the words were not left to the will and wisdom of the writers . let the reader chuse which of the two contradictory conclusions of i.o. he will take as true ; yet as one of them is , and both cannot be true ; so true it is that i.o. runs the rounds , and contradicts himself here , as he doth in twenty places more of his self-consuting fardel . i. o. thou addest , p. , . that in their writing they were not onely on a general account to utter the truth they were made acquainted with all , and to speak the things they had heard and seen , which was their common preaching-work ; but also the very individual words they had received , were to be declared . and p. . quoting mat. . . that the apostles were not the speakers of what they delivered , as other men are , the figment , and imagination of whose hearts are the fountain of all that they speak , but the spirit of the father in them . rep. how hangs this true passage , viz. they were to utter the truth they were acquainted withall , and write the things they had heard and seen , together by the ears with that false passage , p. , . where thou sayest , the stories , laws , doctrines , instructions , promises , prophesies they gave out , were not retained in their memories from what they had heard , nor by any means before-hand comprehended by them , &c. what clouds of witnesses be here to the clearing of the spirit , by which thou writest to be a spirit of self-contradiction . . was not their common preaching-work , and their common writing-work all one , as to the choice of words wherein they declared ? were they at liberty when they preached , to ramble into words of their own meere will , choice , and invention , and limited when they wrote , so that they might not express themselves in such words as in the will and wisdome of god , in which they dwelt and liv'd , they saw meet for the matter in hand ? but just tyed to the individual words brought to them as immediately by inspiration , as the matter , or word of god it self they wrote of ? who acquainted thee with this whimsical , non-sensical notion , that they in their work of preaching disposed and ordered their words as in wisdom they saw them acceptable , or serviceable ; but in their work of writing they might dispose , order , chuse , and in wisdom seek to find out acceptable words , but had every tittle more immediately put into them , then when they spake the truth by word of mouth ? dost not thou thy self say , p. . mat. . . that the apostles were not the speakers of what they delivered , but the spirit in them ? whereby the truer that is tthe more clearely thou contradictest thy self again , and intimatest no less then thus much ; that the spirit as immediately and distinctly brought to them , gave , and put into their minds and mouths what words they should use when they were speaking , as what words they should use when they were writing . so that what ever was their common preaching-work , and common writing-work , in both which it 's true enough that they were assisted specially , and in both equally by the holy spirit , in the wisdom , power , evidence , and demonstration of which speaking in them , and moving them , who were obedient to him , to an active improvement and exercise of their rational faculties , minds , understandings , wills , memories thereunto , they both preached and wrote , cor. . . cor. . . and so uttered no other truth then they were mostly made acquainted withall by the spirit within themselves , and heard and saw by the light within , as well as by hear-say , and the writings of one another from without : yet the common preaching-work , and writing-work of thy self and thy fellow - ministers , not of the light and spirit , but of the letter , out of which ye surtively fetch , filch , and steal all your stuff and furniture wherewith ye feed people till they starve , i say , your preaching and writing is of things that ye are not acquainted with from the spirit of the father , nor from its manifestings the mind of god within you , and moving you to utter them in words of his own immediate suggesting and supplying ; but a certain uttering forth in your own wills and times , of what ye have no otherwise then by hearsay , or from the scriptures of those who spake and wrote ( as mov'd ) no more then what they both saw , and heard , and handled of the word of life ; a certain rude handling what ye never felt your selves , nor your own hands ever yet handled of that word of life , ye read others writing of ; a heedless holding forth of what ye hear not , but onely hear of ; a talkative treating on what truth ye do not truly taste of ; an impudent intruding of your selves into a self-ended shewing of what ye have not seen , but as at second-hand ye see it shew'd in the scripture , by such as were in the true sight and substantial being of it , vainly puffed up in your fleshly minds ; in which respect ye are no true ministers , nor true witnesses for god , but false witnesses , even when ye testifie the truth , which is not yours , as well as when ye tell lyes , and teach the untruths , which are your own , as the old truth stealers , and word-sellers were , who though they said , because they found it so said by such as felt it , the lord lives , which is the truth , yet they spake falsely , forasmuch as they witnessed him nor risen and alive , but murdered , stew , kill'd , and crucified the holy and just one within themselves ; and spake not , as christ and his did , what they knew , ioh. . . and testified not what they had seen , but worshipped , and worded it about what they knew not , iohn . . and so as a man can't be counted a legal witness in foro hominum , in a civil court of judicature among men , that shall testifie of another's theft , murder , and scandal , at second hand , that is , not as an immediate eye , or ear-witnesse of it , but on his reading in a letter , or hear-say from such as were so ; so , much less in foro dei & ecclesiae , can any be owned as a true minister of the new-testament , which is not of the letter , but the spirit , that ministers and testifies no more then what he hath meerly read in , and stole out of the letter , and not what he hath seen , felt , heard and handled of the living word inwardly , in the spirit ; and further by thy own confession , since thou saist the apostles were not as other men are in their speakings and writings , the figment and imaginations of whose hearts are the fountain of all they speak , and ownest not thy self and thy fellows to be apostles of christ , ( for thou deemest there are none so in these dayes ) but other men , thou thereby ownest , ( but speak for thy self and thy fellows however , and not for all ; for we know some apostles now as of old there were ) the figment and imagination of your own hearts , to be the fountain of all ye speak ; what need we further witness to this , since we read it uttered from thy own mind and hand ? and lastly , since thou sayest the pen-men of the scripture were so tyed up to the very individual words received by them , and put into them by the holy spirit , and p. , . were to deliver and write as all , so nothing but that to every tittle that was so brought unto them , not altering nor adding , &c. of their own in their wisdoms and understandings ; it should seem then , according to your own principles , that god gave out by them what was sufficient to guide men ( if outward writing or scripture was by him intended to be their rule ) and if they themselves might not amplifie , nor add , nor enlarge , nor comment upon the word of god manifested by them in the scripture , by the exercising of their rational faculties , but were to rest in so much as was revealed in them by the spirit , and to others in writing by them ; what need then is there of those infinite and endless odd additions that the doctors and divines have made from generation to generation to the scipture , of their own voluminous inventions , interpretations , and as divided , as devised divinations , extravagant expositions , incomprehensible commentaries , confus'd contradictions , cantings one to another , and to the world , to the confounding of it , with many more humbles of their senses , meanings , opinions , thoughts about the bible , then it can contain , amounting in bulk perhaps to a thousand times more then the bible comes to ? and who gave you text-men such a liberty and authority to take the text and talk on it in your wisdoms , wils , words and vnderstandings , opening , amplifying , paraphrasing , prating out the plain truth as it there lyes , so unprofitably to people in your own phrases , to your own outward profit , at your pleasure ? did he that bounded and limited , and hedg'd in the writers , saying [ according to thy sense ] hitherto , thus far shall ye manifest my mind in writing , and no further , lend you such a boundless latitude to prate out your own opinions , and turn you loose and unmuzled in pratum vestrum , ubi non est sepes ? was not the mind of god in that scripture given out by god himself full enough , and plain enough , at least in matters necessary to salvation for the meanest capacity to understand when it 's read to them , in the words wherein it seemed good to the holy spirit , and the holy penmen to write it out , without such a bottomless deal of adding , amplifying and expounding , as your excentrick academical exorcists make about it ? when paul wrote to timothy , titus , philemon , and the churches , and iohn to the lady , and gaius , and luke his story of what christ and the apostles said and did , were there need , much more absolute necessity of a priest to be sent for in all haste to open what they meant to such as they sent their letters to , in a tongue that they well understood ? and now the scripture is translated into our own mother-tongue in england , such as can read , may read and understand it ; and such as can't read , may have it read to them at their own houses , there being one or other in every house almost , that can read now , even very children if old folks cannot ; which being read , is tenfold more plain in such places as pertain necessarily to salvation , to every honest , understanding , and plain-minded man that is willing to do the will of god there written of , then the costly comments , and manifold hampered handlings , and more perplexize unfoldings of it , that are made by our schoolmen , and vniversity theological professors : so that what more need then of old when the letter came newly forth , for a priest to be placed in every parish for pay , to darken the counsel of god in the scripture , by his words without knowledge , under a pretence of opening it ; or if it were an opening , as it rather is a shutting of the kingdom of heaven against men , [ as our scribes , pharisees , and hypocrites , like them of old , manage that matter , and use their keys of knowledge in another kind of manner then honest peter ] what need of hundreds a year to be paid in parishes for the opening of one or two texts or verses in a week ? or rather [ as some draw it out ] the talking on some one text for a month , or a quarter of a year together , against the light and spirit from whence it was written ? if those that wrote it , might not meddle to say a little more , as i.o. sayes , in their wisdoms , though they were as spiritually fluent and learnt , as national ministers are spiritually ignorant ; it would be more useful then now it is , through your miserable mangonizations of it , by your se●ces on open places , if your wisdoms would leave it as it is , without making out your misty meanings on it , to poormen for so much money . j. o. thou addest , that the declaration of the new testament gave out the minde and will of god in a way of morel's e●●y and glory without that dread and terrour which was peculiar to the old , and to the pedagogit thereof , in which the coming of the word had oftentimes such a greatness and expression of the majesty of god upon it as filled them with dread and reverence of him , hab. . . and also greatly affected even their outward man , dan. . . rep. here thou talkest again like thy self , like a man ignorant ( as thou art for all thy high conceit of thy self ) of the scriptures thou art scribling so for , and of the things therein declared , both before and since christ , which two termes thou countest the times of the old testament and the new , and so they figuratively are , howbeit as to the thing it self ( which is yet far above out of thy sight ) the gospel had children from adam to this day under moses his out outward pedagogie , and the law , whose children are of the bond-woman , and not heirs according to the promise with the children of the free , hath its children as well since that juncture of christs incarnation as before . and as for thy inconsiderate position concerning the peculiarity of dread and terrour in receiving of the word from god by the writers of the scripture to the pedagogie of the old testament and times before , christ , such as greatly affected the outward man with trembling and astonishment , for which thou citest both habakkuk and daniel , as it the times since christ knew no such matter , as true trembling , or any such quaking as may affect the outward man , but what is fained , and from satan , and the force and power of the evil spirit imitating in his filthy tripodes and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that dread and terrour , which is by the power of god upon his people , of which said fictitious sort thou falsely and foolishly fainest all that outward trembling , that is found among the qua. to be at this day , pag. . & ex. . s. . i say hadst thou been as well read and skilled in scripture , as by thy scribling pro scripturis , thou wouldest fain seem to be , surely thou wouldest have found that paul and john both were found in as great tremblings and astonishments , dread and terrour to the great affecting of the outward man , under the appearances of the lord to them in visions and revelations of his minde and will to them , which they wrote , as either daniel , habakkuk , or the rest of the prophets before christ that wrote them , insomuch that they scarce knew sometimes where they were , whether in , or out of the body , but were as dead with fear , act. . . . cor. . . cor. . , . rev. . . but alas j.o. is so taken up and hurried in his thoughts in a hideous talking for the scriptures , that he hath little time to give any very great good heed to the scriptures themselves he so talks for . j.o. thou addest pag. , . that , as far as their own personal concernments as saints and beleevers did lye in the things they wrote , they studied the writings and prophesies of one another , dan. . . and made a diligent enquiry thereby in order to the investigation of the things which the spirit that spake in themselves did signifie , pet. . . . without which though their visions were express , yet they understood them not ; and that they attained a saving useful , habitual knowledge of the truths delivered by themselves and others by the illumination of the holy ghost , through the study of the word , [ i.e. scripture with thee still ] even as ye do , psal. . but as to the receiving of the word from god , as god spoke in them , they obtained nothing by study or meditation , by enquiry or reading , am. . . rep. here is such a parcel of uncouth prate about the prophets and their prophesie of scriptures , and the scriptures of their prophesies , as favours of nothing but that illiterateness and ignorance of the true wayes of coming to the saving knowledge , and understanding of the minde and will of god , that abounds in vniversities [ the supposed nurseries as well of spiritual learning as any other ] well nigh as much as in any places of the ( so called ) christian world besides . what dreaming , what darkness and confusion is here ? as if the writers of the scriptures , because they were moved by the holy spirit to write what they did , therefore wrote they did not know what themselves , nor in any wise sawingly understood every one his own piece of writing , or scripture , pag. . whether of histories , or prophesies , or proverbs , or psalms , or instructions , or doctrines , or laws , or promises , or what ever tru he recorded , delivered , made known , given out , revealed by themselves , revealed to them first from god , as to their own concernment therein , as saints or beleevers , by the revelation thereof to them from god ( which as i said above is the only way of coming to the saving knowledge of any truth , and not that of reading it , as truth , in anothers writings ) without running out to study and read the writings of some other men in order to their attaining any habitual , saving , useful intelligence of their own ; as if isaiah , that evangelical prophet did not savingly understand the gospel doctrines and promises , and instructions , and his own recorded history of senacherib and hezekiah , and other saving truths delivered and written by himself , as they were revealed to him by the lord , nor by the voice , spirit and light of god himself manifesting them within him , nor as he received the word so revealed and manifested ( in order to which receiving the word thou assertest also they obtained nothing by study , or meditation , enquiry or reading but onely as he made diligent enquiry , study and search after the things the spirit signified by him in the writings and scriptures of some other prophets : i wonder what other parts of scripture of the other prophets he studied so , to get that saving knowledge by , since unless it were the psalmes , the last book of which is judged to have been compiled together by the maccabees long after his dayes , excepting also the three , i.e. hos a , amos , and micah , that were co aetaneous with him , all other prophets that are ranked after him in your bibles ( though not in the same order of time wherein they wrote ) wrote long after him : and as if ezekiel , jeremiah , daniel , or the rest knew not savingly what they wrote themselves no more then we do , as to themselves , or any personal interest they had in the truths of their own writings , but as they got an useful saving knowledges thereof out of each others writings ; in proof of which , if a man would wrest them , as thou doest to thine , by the head and shoulders , to such a purpose , he might almost as easily evince the pope to be head of christs church , as draw any such matter , as this thou concludest from scripture . that of pet. . , . ministers no more matter of evidence to thy imagination in this particular , that the prophets searched other prophets writings to finde out each the meaning of his own , then peters being at rome , if ever he were there , doth to his being the popes predecessor there in the holy chair . 't is true the prophets are there said to enquire and search diligently after the salvation and the grace that comes unto the saints at the revelation of christ ; but is there no searching and enquiring after the salvation , and the fulness of the grace of god , but i● the letter ? is not the most succesful searching after these matters made in the light it self , that teaches and shews it , and brings the salvation nigh to all that wait for it therein , which light or grace hath appeared to all men , tit. . , . and is t●e●e any way whereby god gives the knowledge of his own glory but the light from himself , which the letter speaks of , wherewith god , who commands the light to shine out of darkness , shines into the hearts of the saints in order thereunto ? cor. . , . and are not all things that are manifested , manifested in the light , and is there any thing that doth make manifest but the said light and spirit , which the letter speaks of , and which was before the letter was ? eph. . . and doth god reveal the hidden mysteries of the gospel any way but by his spirit to his saints , which searcheth all things even the deep things of god ? and doth any know the things of god , but the spirit of god , and the spiritual men , who in it , and not by the letter ( which letter the world hath , yet hath not the other ) have minde of christ ? cor. . . to the end : and in that of peter coted by thee , is there the least hint of the scriptures , or of the prophets searching the scriptures , or of any signification of the things they ministred to others in their writings by the scriptures , but only by the spirit ? and as for daniel , it is true he understood by the books of jeremiah the cer●ain number of seventy years , how long the captivity should last , but what of that , num ex puris particularibus aliquid sequit●● universale ? wilt thou argue from one to all ? much more wilt thou infer from thence that neither daniel , nor any other prophets , understood their own writings , but by the scriptures of the other prophets , which is the absurdity thou assertest ? and as for davids saying , through thy precepts i get understanding . hast thou got no more understanding yet then to beleeve that the precepts , statutes , ●udgements , laws , commandments , testimonies , word , ordinances , wayes , truth , name one or other of which names is either in the singular , or in the plural number used in every individual verse ( excepting two ) throughout that long . psalm consisting of an . verses , no other thing is meant but the outward letter , writing , or scripture of moses five books , very little more than which was extant in davids dayes wherein the ten words which god wrote with his own hand , and a few more ceremonious matters were recorded by the hand of moses ? is not the commandement , or word , or law of god ( as the letter speaks ) the lamp or light that the letter only speaks of , psal. . . &c. . . prov . . and if all the other prophets that succeeded moses studied the writing● of moses , and one another in order to the knowledge of their own prophetical writings , without which they understood them not savingly , as thou sillily sayest , yet i wonder what other prophets writing● moses himself who was one of the prophets , not excepted by thee , searched and studied , that he might get a saving understanding of that truth that was penn'd by himself , sith , as thou thinkest at least , there were no scriptures extant before him , for enochs prophesies have no standing in your standard . i wonder quae colliquia cum angelis vel ficta velfacta , quis enthusiasmus quis afflatus caelestis , aut ( reapse , vis mali spiritus did suggest these fantasms into thy fancy , ex. . ex. s. ● . thou hast little need to detest the qua. as enthusiasis that entertainest and utterest to the world as undoubted truths such amick enthusiasmes as these . sundry other such shallow furmises and suppositions are very positively propounded and set down by thee in thy first chapter of thy first treatise , which i shall let pass here , some of which may possibly be touch't on elsewhere ! but this may suffice to give a taste of that untruth , which thy two treatises are under-propt with , whereby from the falsenesse , faultinesse , foolishnesse , and unsoundness of thy ground-work and foundation , and from the brittleness of thy basis ( so thou call'st , p. . . . this original part of thy book , concerning the divine original , and immediate manner of the scriptures coming forth from god to us ) the reasonable reader may read aforehand what a come-down castle the rest of thy babylonish building is like to be , for howbeit i grant that the word of god and the holy truth in its first coming forth from god to the holy pen-men that heard his voice , and so wrote it as moved by him , was of an immediate divine original , in which respect it is said no prophesie of the scripture is of private interpretation , or to be counted no more upon than a private mans wri●ing , which writes of his own head ( as thou dost ) the figment and imagination of whose heart , fancies & thoughts are the fountain of all that is uttered , but as that which holy men of god were moved to write , and the outward scripture it self may be said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i.e. penned by men as they were inspired by god , or the fruit and effect of no self-afflation , but according to the motion or inflation of the holy spirit ; yet that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thou makest such a deal of work about , as the original of the copies of the original of the scripture and their coming forth from god , was not so immediately from god to those that lived when they were first given out , much less to us now , as thou imaginest in thy vain mind , who dotest that every apex of that text is equally divine and as immediately from god to us as the very voice of god in the prophets was to them , without the least mixture or interveniency of any mediums or wayes obnoxious , to fallibility or capable of giving change or alteration to the least 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or syllable thereof , pag. . . . for that came from god at first ( excepting the decalogue and that little to belshazzar , which ye have now , but remote copies of ) not without the interveniency , medium and way of mans hand-writing , which is it were ( as being infallibly guided by the spirit ) obnoxious to no fallibility , yet as it comes to you , who own that and no other to be your inalterable standard , it s far from coming immediately from god , sith it is not without the interveniency of the hands of welnigh innumerable unknown transcribers , the very first and best of whom were so far from non-obnoxiousness to fallibility that thou thy self sayest , pag. . that neither all nor any of them were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 infallible or divinely inspired , so that it was impossible for them to mistake , and that religious care and diligence in their works with a due reverence of him with whom they had to do is all thou ascribest to them , and p. . that the wisdome , truth , integrity , knowledge and memory of the best of all men is obnoxious 〈◊〉 fallibility , and also that it s known they did fail . neither , if the question were about the autographae or first manuscripts that were far more immediate then thy far fetcht apographae or modern copies are , ( howbeit thy main business is about the magnifying thy confestedly mistranscribed transcripts and fallible copies , and not the other , which being acknowledged by thee to be lost , perished , and mouldred out of the world , nemo post homines natos aequè ac tu delerasse censendus esset si pro scripturis ipsis scriptis hisce argumentare statueris , thy dotage would justly be deemed of a deeper die than any mans to argue for them , if he be a fool of al fool , that fight● for the non-corruptibility of what is long since corrupted ) but i say were thy vehement vindication and apologetical appearances pro scripturis for the individual manuscripts of the holy men that wrote the minde of god more immediately from his mouth , than any of thy transcribers , that copy out things as carefully as they can as they find them copied out before them , and were they still extant in rerum natura , yet the immediacy even of those first scriptures from god to us was not so absolute without any medium at all , as thou imaginest and intimatest from the tex● used by thee , and ushered , in with such a deal of pomp and ceremony in proof thereof , p. . viz. pet. . , . knowing this that no prophesie of scripture is of any private inter●pretation , for the prophecy came not of old time by the will of man , but holy men of god spake as they were moved by the holy ghost . this thou writest all over in greek first , then in english , and then descantest paraphrastically upon it in many pages as if thou wouldest beat thy beleef upon men , and cudgel them into thy conceit of the scriptures being as immediately from god to us in every apex , as his voice by which he spake in the holy men that wrote it , was in them , and that assuredly beyond all doubt or exception , because peter sayes , no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretati●n , nor came by mans will , but gods , and holymen spake us moved by his spirit , yea pag. , . thou runst away an end it with it , as an undoubted truth , and layest it down as it were supernaculum , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 knowing , judging , determining this in the first place , this is a principl● to be owned and acknowledged by every one that will beleeve any thing else . this then in our religion is to be owned , acknowledged , submitted unto as a principle without further dispute , that this is so indeed as before asserted , and to give a reason , why this to be received as a principle , it is added vers . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the word of prophecy is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of private acceptation , for it came not , was brought into them not at any time by the will of men , but by the will of god : and further it is added by the apostle , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they were acted , born , carried out to speak , deliver , write all that , and nothing but that to every tittle that was so brought to them by the holy ghost . what a pompous piece of proof here is of the scriptures coming from god to us , disht out with great store of circumstance , having no substance or purport at all in it to the purpose in hand ; for however j.o. cannot discern how to distinguish between these two terms , viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●●e prophecy of the scripture , and the scripture of the prophecy , the changeable text ●● and unchangeable truth , the meer let●er , and the holy matter , yet peter speaks not there of the scripture , which comes to us immediately from men writing , not in their own wills , but at the will of god , as moved by his spirit , but of the prophecy thereof , which we confess came immediately from god to the holy men of god , and to others mediately , not without the intervenieny of their hand-writing of it , v●rbum sat sapienti , insipiensi plura plus satis . neither doth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thou makest such work about elsewhere viz. p. . in a case somewhat consonant with this , urging out of tim. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 necessarily intimate such an absolute immediacy of the outward text from god as thou wotest , for as there is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a writing or scripture that is more ad intra , than the writing ●d extra , legible by the external eye , which thy minde and eyes are altogether a gadding after , as if there were no other , viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a scripture written not with inke , but with the spirit of the living god , not in tables of stone , but in fleshly tables of the heart , cor . , . which whether paul to timothy doth not speak of , as that which he had known from his youth , and was able to make him wise to salvation , and as being by the inspiration of god , and profitable to the perfecting of them in of god to furnish him for doctrine , reproof , instruction inrighteousness , and ev●ry go●d work , is well worth your serious enquiry , who search so shallowly into the scripture that ye seldome meet with the marrow and true mystery of any text yé talk ón , so if you will needs have that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to intend the external text only , as being by inspiration of god , yet that phrase 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or by inspiration from god , doth not denote necessarily the strictest degree of immediation , nor can it found out so much , as if the said outward letter came from him without any medium , but it came as t is ●aid in the other place , pet. . . according to the will of god from men moved by him to write it , so according to the motion of gods spirit , or his inflations or blowings upon the hearts of holy men , not without the interveniency of their hands in the penning of it or the hands of such as penned it from their mouthes as they spake the truths thereof , who received them from the mouth of god speaking in them . thus though the first manuscripts had as immediate a divine original and emanation from god as any outward writings in the world , yet that they had so immediate an emanation as thou wouldest make them have , as if every apex thereof is as immediate from god to you as his voyce was from him to the prophets in whom he spake that ( excepting the little that is above excepted ) is utterly false ; and as for your transcripts , which thy talk is so transcendent for , though they are immediate to you because they come to you as the first manuscripts never did , yet they came not immediately from god at all , but from the hands of fallible men , so little guided in their writing from the infallible spirit , that by thy own confession , they being without that , both might and did fail and mistake therein . and now how little all this first chapter hath in it where with to make a sound bottom● or firm basis for the bearing up of so great a babel , as thou buildest on it , viz. such a divine authority of the scripture , as whereby it claims and challenges the high and glorious title of the word of god to it self , and every tittle of it , under pain and peril of all mens perishing for ever that ownit not , as such , and honor it not , as thou dost , whose grand idol the meer outward text is , with that divine honour that is due to the inward , true , eternal , incorruptible , inalterable , powerful living , life-giving word of god it self , which it only is but a bare , though true relation of , comes now to be considered . chap. iii. having laid ( thy falsely supposed divine original , and immediate emananation from god of the letter , as the sole foundation of all that divine authority , as the word of god , thou ascribest to it ; and as thy basis , as thou sayest , p. . . . thou beginnest thy building in thy second chapter , and so onward throughout thy book in both treatises and theses , laying and thwacking title upon title , land upon land , honor upon honor , exaltation , on exaltation crown upon crown , on the head of the copies of the original , or hebrew and greek texts of the bible , as they are at this day , come down to you from the generations of old thorough the hands of the sundry successive transcribers , extolling and magnifying it in such an exceeding high , unlimited , and boundless way of benediction , till , like one that being busie in beautifying with gold his carved image , and blessing his more then ordinarily beloved idol , forgets that it s but a perishing piece of wood , or mouldring matter fashioned into that form and fabrick , wherein it appears outwardly and immediately to him , by the handywork of meer erring man , thou carriest thy castle into the clouds with aery applauses , till by thy lofty liftings up of the letter , and thy windy , whiffling , to and fro talkings for it , and weathercockly commendations , and setting up of every pinnacle , tittle , point , syllable , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of it , thou hast trimm'd up thy tower of babel , with a top welnigh as high as heaven , and made no less of it even of the letter and text of thy meer modern greek and hebrew transcripts of the scripture then appears by thy own words . j.o. the only and most perfect rule of . all faith and good manners . the truest and most unerring touchstone for the trial of all truth . the most immoveable , inalterable , certain , stedfast , and stable standard . the only firm and infallible foundation of all that beleef and obedience that god requires at mens hands . a stedfast releef against all that confusion , darkness , and uncertainty , which the vanity , fossy , and loosness of the minds of men drawn out by the unspeakable alterations that fall out amongst them , would certainly have run out into , pag. . the most effectual means of bringing men to repentance , on which all faith and repentance is immediately to be grounded . that which alone gives the determination of doctrines proposed to be beleeved whether they are truths of god , or cunning●y devised fables . tr. . cap. . sect. . that by which we are commanded to examine and prove , tanquam ad lydium lapidem , all those things that are to be examined and proved . that which pleads its reception not only in comparison with , but in opposition unto all other wayes of coming to the knowledge of his minde and will founded thereon , p. . that which is necessary in such an high degree of necessity in its daily use , not only ad ingenerationem fidei to the begetting of faith , where it is not , b●● & in ea edificationem to the edification of the highest saints in it while they draw breath here , that there is not more need to us of food and rayment to uphold our very natural life , than there is of the scriptures that we may be daily instructed in the knowledge and faith of christ. that which doth not only most exceedingly exceed all others , but as to the saving ends thereof , is the only and singular means that god uses in order to the revealing the knowledge of himself . * the light , the most glorious light in the world , above the sun , &c. p. . the witness of god , the power of god to salvation , ipsa doctrina quam à deo docemur , yea no lesse than ●he very powerful , living , quickning , soul-saving word of god. that which challenges to it self that glorious title of the word of god , as its own proper name . that which is so tum in esse reali & cognoscibili , i.e. so , and so known evidently by its own light and power so to be . that which manifests and testifies of it self from the beginning to the end of it , p. . to be the word of the living god , yea abundantly & uncontrolably to men . p. that which is often , even welnigh a thousand times mentioned , indigitated , ex. . sect. . . by that name the word of god. that which calls for attendance and submission to it ( as such ) with supream uncontroleable authority , p. . that which is expected from us , and required of us by god himself on penalty of his eternal displeasure if we fail in our duty , thess. . , , . that we receive it not as we do other books with a firm opinion only but with divine and supernatural faith , omitting all such inductions as serve only to ingenerate a perswasion that it is his word , p. . . . &c. and many more such transcendently glorious epethites , and compellations thou denominatest the scripture by , as that , which , as to the integrity of the text , is unaltered in every tittle , and also every tittle and iota of which is a part of the word , yea the word of the great god , wherein the eternal concernment of souls lyes ; for of the scripture , or under that terme of scripture or of the word , thou restisiest all this , yea and very much more dost thou found out and sing of the transcripts of the greek and hebrew text to the same tune , which though they are all true of the true word of god indeed , which is properly so called , and in the scripture it self , which never , which no where calls it self so , is often and only so stiled , yet being by thee uttered all concerning the scripture , which is intended by thee , when thou praedicarest any thing of it under that name or term of the word of god , saying , the word of god is a light , powerful , glorious , above the sun , &c. as well as when thou speakest of it under its own true and only proper name of scripture , saying the scripture is the rule , the foundation , &c. the scripture is so or so , it is every whit of it utterly false , as thou utterest it , the falsehood whereof , i shall now come to make some animadversions of more particularly . and for as much as i own all those high-flown glorious denominations thou runnest out into to be true to a tittle , if spoken of gode word indeed , but deny utterly the truth of any one of them , as they are spoken by thee of the scripture , as the most commodious way that i can take for the disproof of thy untrue talke of the scriptures , whereby thou ignorantly , not to say idolatrously attributest such glorious titles and epechites thereunto as are the due and only peculiar properties of the true and living word of god indeed , which is christ jesus himself , and also for the vindication of the word of god from that robbery and spoil that is done to it by thee , who pullest it down from the throne , and statest the meer texs and letter of it in its place , and also for the further vindication of the poor deluded , fanatical qua. as thou callest them in whom thou foolishly fanciest satan assaults the sacred truth of the word of god in its authority , purity , integrity , and perf●ction , against whose abominations ( as thou sayest in thy epistles ) thou subjoyned thy latine theses in the close of the other treatises for the instruction of the younger sort of students , to whom thou dedicatest thy dribling doings ; and for the clearing of the qua. in their principles from thy shallow rash censure of them as being therein confused opposers of the truth , i shall endeavour to comprize the whole truth not only about the word of god , but also about the scripture of it , as to name and thing , most miserably mistaken by thy poor deluded self , in this one general argument , the minor proposition whereof being plainly proved to be true in each particular of it ( for the major is not only undeniable , but also undenied , or rather absolutely affirmed by thy self ) the conclusion which is perfectly contradictory to the main matter , and principal proposi●ion contended for throughout thy book , viz. that the scriptures known to be the word of god and that is the proper name thereof , will necessarily follow ( as true ) to its full and final confutation and overturning . the argument is on this wise . the word of god is the most stedfast relief against uncertainty and confusion , the firm foundation , the most perfect rule of all faith and obedience that god requires at m●ns hands , the most effectual means of bringing men to repentance , and which immediately it is to be grounded upon , the chiefest among all wayes of coming to the knowledge of gods minde and will , the truest touchstone , stable standard , lydius lapis , that gives determination of doctrines , by which all is to be examined and proved necessary to beget and increase faith , perfect in its integrals , the most glorious spiritual light in the world , above the sun , the witness of god , the very doctrine of god , the power of god to salvation , the powerful , living , quickning soul-saving word of god that which challengeth that glorious title to its self as it own proper name , that which evidenceth , manifests and testifies of it self to be the word of god , and is so stiled welnigh a thousand times in the scripture , to be received as such on peril of eternal ruine , every tittle of which is the word of god , the great god , in which the eternal concernment of souls doth lye , and such other things as j.o. denominates the scripture by . but the scripture is none of all this , therefore the scripture is not the word of god , much less known so to be , nor so properly to be called . that the scripture is none of all that which thou testifiest above that it is , and which no qua. do deny the word of god to be , is the business which now lyes before me to make good , in order whereunto i shall take the several particulars into examination , and make some animadversion of what thou sayest in proof of those particulars in the affirmative , affirming , i that not the scripture , but the light the letter came from is the only most stedfast relief against contentious , confusions , darkness and uncertainties . thou sayest indeed the scripture is the stedfast relief against all that uncertainty , darkness , confusion , &c. that the mindes of men heightned by the unspeakable alterations that are found among them , run out into . but i say ( not blaming the scripture as the cause of it , which is holy , just , and good , when wise men have the handling of it ) that throw the doting disputers of this world about it , who in their wrangling mindes and restless pens wrest the writings of it to their own and the worlds ruine , the scripture , canoniz'd by men as their rule of faith , is become ( as the gospel of peace is of war to the lewd mindes ) the occasion , or causa sine qua non of all the confusion , darkness , uncertainty , which by the vanity , folly , and loosness of mens mindes , drawn out a whoring after the letttr without , from the light and spirit within , by divine dotages on it , and dim divinations out of it for means , and the unspeakable alterations of it , and endless enmities and hatreds , and envyings one of another about their own sottish senses , and mishapen meanings on it , hath too certainly been heightened , and is already long since run out into . so that as aristotle and ramus the two received and respective standards for the junior sophisters of our two nurseries , oxford , and cambridge , to fight under in their logical scoldings ; so the scripture is made by our senior school-men in their scholastical theological s●nffles , a standard more to squabble about , and fight under , than a standard to try and determine truth by ( as they call it ) and is nothing but an ample armory from which they fetcht most of their furniture where with all in their mad malicious mindes to fence against each other concerning the scriptures it self , and such plain truths as lye open to all honest capacities therein , and lye hid from none more than these wise and prudent praters of it , who like the horses and riders , zach. . . being of the lord smitten with madness , blindness , and astonishment , run on to battel as warriours , isa. . with confused noise , till the nations where they live lye languishing for their wicked wills sakes , with their garments rolled in blood . yea the scripture , as canoniz'd into an authentick common standard to themselves , stands but as truncus locorum , &c. a certain topick or common place from whence to scrue arguments to the assaulting one of another , and from which to fetch fuell to feed the fire of their wrathful , and hellish life of disputing out their giddy guessings to each other , so nauseously , that some saints have been weary of the world , and wisht to be out of it upon nothing more than a desire to be rid of the angry , direful doings and divisions of the men called divines ; which topick of theirs too they chop to pieces and criticize into such crums and bits , the better to beat one another out of , and about it , that as the oxonians used to say of ramus , in tot ramos , ramulos , & ramusculos , locorum hunc truncum , dividit , &c. so i may say of all our admired erasmus's or ( supposedly ) learned divines , that either hate or dote on each others divinity doings ( of the best of whom when all is done as renouned as they seem to themselves , i can say no better yet ( such dunces are they in the school of christ ) than i can of erasmus himself , of whom , as to the things of god , were he now living , it might be said , mus , at erasmus eras , mus , at erasmus eras ) in quot puncta , punctula , & punctillula , &c. into how many points , punctualities , and punctilioes , do they spring out in their pratings , pratlings , and prittle prattles upon and concerning it , till as heterogeneous as the scripture is , in the sense above shewed , in respect of its various matters , they make the bare writing so homogeneous a thing , that every point , tittle and iota of it must bear not only the true ( for so it may , every point and iota , line , and letter being scripture , as well as a whole page ) but the very false fictitious name and nature of the whole ; for thus j.o. makes the whole scripture no more , as well as no less than the word of god , and no less then so , even then the word of god ( for had he said each tittle is scripture , i should have excused him ) doth he aver every tittle and iota of the scripture to be pag. , . pag. . every apex of the written word i.e. writing with him is equally divine and as immediately from god as the voice wherewith and whereby he spake to , or in the prophets , and is therefore accompanied with the same authority ( which authority with him is that of commanding the name of god as his word , pag , , . ) in its self , and unto us , who if he can tell me how much sense , or prove to me that there is any sound sense , true doctrine , comprized , commanded or taught in one tittle or iota , much more that every transcribed tittle and iota of it is ( as he there affirms ) the word of the great god though i yet say , as he sayes of what he cannot beleeve , credat apella , yet he however , erit mihi magus apollo . yet for every [ not to say tittittle ] but tittle and little 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in it is he so loud that he labours and looks to be heard and heeded as far off as beyond sea by capellus and other divines , against whom he tiresomely talks about trivial matters , not contented with the truths of doctrine contained , without every apex , tittle and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of what ever was in the text be assured and secured unto him , any of which yet if happily they are lost , as all the individual immediate first manuscripts are wholly by his own confession , i know no body will spare so much time , or trouble themselves to take so much pains as to look them up for him . yea oh the infinity of i. o's fightings with his fellow protestant , as well as popish divines , for the foresaid flim flams and forms of outward scripture in that second treatise of his , or manifold tale of a tub without any bottome , save the sandy ground and fickle foundation of forgeries , fables , humane fallible perswasions , uncertain conjectures , * and on his own side his own thoughts , conjecture , and apprehensions , as his own self therein abundantly confessnes into which , but for service-sake to the truth , and that i may shew the seers how dim-sighted they are , and the world , what a wood and wildernesse of meer imaginations her leaders are wandering and erring up and down in , it even loaths me to look into it ; and but that i know the end of it be no worse then this , as the proverb is , that when thieves fall out among themselves , true men are the likelier to come by their goods again ; it would more troub●e and terrifie me , then it does , to behold , as every one may that reads there , and does not [ to use j. o.'s own phrase in it , p. . ] dream pleasantly , while he is awake , how the divines are divided about the ground they stand on ; like children , crying out , and tearing themselves to pieces about their shreds , and shels , and pins and points , and counters , & for want of insight into better materials , and into the inside thereof , are twatling away their time to learn in , about the gawdy outside of their horn-books and primers , and brawling about the back side of their bibles , treating out their thoughts in tittle-tattles to each other about titles of books , and t●●●'●● and iota's , hebrew points , punctations , accents , vowels , dipthongs , ●abbincal , unical , and other sorts of letters , pronounciations , acute , apert , double and simple sounds , * as ai , ay , pay , day , how , now , rout , stout , eat , meat , pull , cut , boy , toy , all , tale , thy , my , thine , thin , go , to , vse , vs law , draw , title , tittle , and such like tittle-tattles , and simple sounds , as so , no , [ j. o.'s and t. d's . simple sounds throughout their books ] various lections , to kiries , and to ketibs , lexicons , original copies , transcriptions , translations , oral traditions , tomes , talmuds , babylonish targums , paraphrases , greek , syriack , arabick , aethiopick , complutensian franciscus , pratensis , and bombergius his bibles , genealogies , chronologies , commentaries , alcorans , gemaraes , mishnaes , massereas , hammasoreths , euchiridions , apologies , appendices , prolegomenaes , biblia poly glottaes , councils , fathers , doctors , and modern authors , rabbies , school-men , casuits , grammarians , turkish , iewish , and heatbenish writers , massorites , cabalists , and other rabbins , and a huge heap more of such massie-men , and their voluminous handy-works , wherewith our men call'd ministers are ever mudling and hampering themselves and each others minds , and out of which , more then out of the scriptures themselves , they so scribble , scrabble , and scramble about , and much more then out of the light and spirit the letter sprang from , the vast body and big bundle of their atheo-theology is composed ; about which yet , nor yet about the standard of their own owning , and their fore-fathers authorizing , they can never accord , but are ever snarling and concurring , as dogs , together by the ears among themselves ; and though their thoughts are so various , that theres quot homines , tot sententiae , as many minds as men ; yet every one is crouding his own erude and self-created , conjectural cogitations , as very oracle on all the rest , and crying up his own incongruous conclusions , as cogent and clear , as the clearest demonstrations in the world . and howbeit it befalls me in submission to god's will , who hath laid it on me against my own , to take so much notice of that notable non-such piece of uncertain discourse of i. o.'s about the various lections , and pedling punctations of the hebrew text : ( in all which his clack is carried to and fro by perplexing , contradicting conjectures † in the high road of forgeries and fables , then which , in nothing [ quoth i.o. p. . ] hath the world been more cheated : and round about in the sphere of rational , humane , fallible perswasions , and the sandy-heap of uncertainties , and incertainty it self : p. . . . . ) as to make some animadversions on some contradictions and odd expressions and absurdities , apparently thick and threefold in it : yet i take so much heed to my self , as not much to interest my self or any thing of mine , into that inconclusible controversie , and endlesse entercourse , which i see i.o. and others are there engaged in , in the looseness of which a man may ( as i. o. does ) sooner loose himself , then find the truth . and seeing , as thou saist in another case , p. . it is to no purpose to go over all such observations as might be made of things that are false , foolish , frivolous , and absurd , that are therein , if any man hath ( as thou saist , and as it seems to me hast ) a mind to be led out of the way , he may do well to attend unto them , i shall no further then to lead men out from attending to the toyishness of them : nor shall i bring my self down from that sure rock on which through mercy i stand , into that deep pit of doubtful disputations , into which such as are fell from god , are fallen , so as irreconcilably to fall out about things so little worth knowing , that they are fit for nothing but to be forgotten ; left passing by , and intermedling in a strife that directly concerns me not , i not onely take a dog by the ears , but raise also a nest of wasps , or whole hive of hornets about my own , who are striving to sting one another with what strength they can about stuff , which ( on which side foe're the truth lyes ) is no more worth such a stirre and strife as they make for it , then a very straw : and since i see all the builders that reject the corner-stone , are found in broiles and brabbles , not onely about their several superstructions and fabricks built thereon , but also their several foundations ; and even the very protestant divines ( whose is the better of the two , so long as the papists have but traditions ) at oddes within themse'ves about their own , which being but the bare letter , is but brittle ; some with i.o. stickling , to little purpose , to prove it firm and uncorrupted , whilst others with far more evidence to evince it to be decrepid : i am minded to stand off from that battel about the points , as to any earnest interposition , and deeper engagement therein , then is above , and become a looker on , and leave the clergy , that are loud and clamorous , and full of noiles , to claw one another with their wonted clubs , and bang one another with their branglings and vain janglings about boy-toy , & the antiquity or novelty of hebrew points : and seeing they are hard at work in the night , and wrestling in chaines of darknesse like the foolish woman , to pull down their own house with their own hands , and to find out , and fling about , that all may see it , the sandiness , and crack's , falsities , and fallibilittes , and flaws that are in their own crazie corner-stone , and faultring foundation , and to crush down their own chaos they have rear'd thereupon , with the curiosity of their own criticisms , and burn up their babels with the confus'd fire of their angry quarrellings and contentions ; i rejoice more to see the truth go on , then sorrow to see their trash come down thereby , hoping that when they have laboured long enough in the fire of their own fury , and find they have wearyed themselves for very vanity , and see the earth fill'd from the lord 's own teachings , without theirs , with the knowledge of his glory from one end to another , as the waters cover the sea ; and that when they begin to feele their old heavens wax hot , and be on fire o're their heads , and their worldly elements , and earthly rudiments to melt away with fervent heat , and the ragged rocks they have carved out to themselves in their own conceits to rest upon , to r●ad in pieces , and their root to shew it self to themselves ( as it 's seen by others ) to be rottenness , and their blossom to go up as the dust , and their boggy foundation to shake , and the ground they go upon , to open & crack , & cleave a sunder under their feet , and themselves to cry out [ as i. o begins to do already ] 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sh●w me where i shall stand : and that when they feel themseves sinking and going down alive with the uncircumcised into the pit , they will then learn that from themselves , which being wiser in their own eyes then the men , that can render a reason , they would never learn from others , ' viz. that were they as truly built on the letter of scripture ( as they deem themselves to be , and it 's most sure to some , and infallibly true they are all beside it ) yet being not on the light , they are no better bottom'd then on the sand ; trusting also , as i said above , that when the holy thieves that steal the word they speake from one another , to make a trade on , and the scribes have done scolding and scuffling together about the scriptures , then there wil be a restitution to every thing , that hath been robb'd thereof , of its own proper name , viz. of the rule , to the rule , of the foundation to the foundation , of the light to the light , of the witnesse of god , to the witnesse of god , of the living word , to the living word of god : and of the bare writing , text , or letter , to the letter , and no more , which in truth is no more then plainly so . so then as positive as thou art in it i.o. that the outward writing , the close of the canon of which , as to any more immediate revelation of his will , was immediately given out from god to us as a continent of the whole of his mind and will , as a merciful and stedfast relief against all confusion , darkness , uncertainty , loosenesse of mens minds , &c. ( ut supra ) and ( as it were ) a certain standard to hush all controversies : yet i who affirm the inward light , vvord , and spirit of god in the heart so to be , do deny that the whole scripture , ( how immediately soever it had its being and beginning of god , and however some little of it was , act. . ) was ever designed by him to such an end as the ending of strifes and contention , or determining of all doubts and questions , and disputings about his mind and will among men ; or that it ever prov'd succesful or effectual to such an end , or else ut frustrâ est ista potentia quae ne unquaem reducitur in actum , sic frustra istud medium quod nunquam obtinere potest suum finem . as that 's a vain power which never produces its effect , so that 's a vain means ( and therefore not so intended of god , who appoints no means utterly in vain ) which never can obtaine its own end . nay verily , though miserable man for his own ends cryes it up into that supremacy , sets it up as the ensign to the nations , in which he would have them put their trust , that it will end and amend all matters that are out of tune in the world about truth , and is a stedfast relief against all that fighting andabatarum mors , in their dark mindes , that is , among the clergy of all kinds and colours , papists , prelates , presbyters , who all three like ammon , moab , and mount seir , ( making one head against the people of god ) do yet destroy each other , and non secus as sampsonis vulpeculae , &c. like sampson's fire-brand-tayl'd foxes , burn up the churches true bread-corn , as if such were the plenitudo scripturarum , the sufficiency , power , and perfect efficacy of the scripture , that if men will come all to a tryal of doctrines , faiths , spirits , and all by that , tanquam ad lydium lapidem then all differences and dissentions in religion , of whatsoever sorts , must cease ; and all the most detestable errors , which flying the scripture , men are divided into , must extempore vanish upon their looking there ; * yet ( till men come to turn to the light and word within , which is the power of god the scriptures tells of , which who erres from , and are ignorant of , as the schollars and scribes are more then any , do erre , not knowing the scripture they scribble on , any more then it ) the letter is too weak an engine to set to rights what 's what 's out of order ; and a standard , which men that lean to it , as to that intent , find to be but a broken staff , that not onely fails their expectation of support from it , but also wounds them more , and runs into their hands ; witnesse the wosul work that the worlds ministers make in it , for all their scripture , who for and about the scripture , and their sundry silly senses about it self , and meanings made of the holy matter that 's plainly made out in it , make more havock of whole nations by stirring them up to war about the scripture , in their wild wisdom , & wicked wils , then ever could have been in christendom , if the scripture had never been among them at all : what wasting , devastations , and calamity hath been in germany , not onely betwixt protestants and papists , but also by protestants , i.e. lutherans and calvinists within themselves , and wherefore , but for their divided thoughts upon some few texts of scripture ? and what errors , heresies , straglings from the truth , which is but one , and from the true light the scripture calls to ? did ever any sorts of erring men ( among whom the clergy that commonly cryed whore first , have been the chief ) run out into error in the christian world , who have not pretended at least to own , and to be willing to be tryed also by the scripture ? yea the papists for all their infallible chair , will , and do ever , when they plead it against protestants , professe pretensively to prove it by the scripture , having a sense for every place to serve their own turns , as the protestant clergy to serve their turns have another . and howbeit it hath been thought in the protestant part of europe , that all would be unity it self among them , ( and so 't is as to make one against the pope since men fell from that infinity of imagination and invention , which was , and was capable to be eternally fed with the endless fuel , which the unerring breast , and boundless treasure of tradition could easily finde for it , and betook themselves more singly to the scriptures , marching from rome under the conduct of the purity of the originals , ( as thou speakest p. ) of the scritures ; yet what multiplication of divisions ( for want of coming to the light , which is but one in all , and in which alone all true unity is had and held with god , and one another , ioh. . , , , . ) rather then any diminution thereof , hath fell out in your reformed churches , as ye call them , 〈◊〉 all the scriptures being so all in all among them , so that like the serpent hydraus hundred heads , whereof when hercules cut off one , two grew up after it in the place , as soon as one controversie among the reform'd clergy was hoped to be ended , though i know none was ever truly ended , yet by all the synodical designs that ever were on foot in this nation , or any other , so that we may truly say of every synod of divines that hath yet fate , quis synodus ? nodus , patrum chorus , integer , aeger , conventus , ventus , sessio , stramen , amen ] many new ones began , that like new fresh hares starting upon tired hounds , that have been hot in the old sent , have run them all out of breath ; or if any evil of division in one thing hath been put to an end , it hath been but a preparative to a greater breach among the protestant clergy , and all their creatures , and still finis alterius mali gradus est futuri : yea , i may say of thy scriptures , as thou pleads for them j.o. to end all strife withall , as i may say of our english oaths impos'd upon poor persons , to the impeaching themselves , when they come before our crooked courts in case of tythes , viz. that the oaths given on pretence of ending all strife , are in truth given by the judges to begin all strife with ; for if an honest man will not swear how many eggs , and pigs , and pears , and plumbs , &c. he hath had for so many years past , they will not permit him to plead at all , or strive in his own defence against his persecutor . in like manner it is with that which thou exhibit'st to men in order to the ending all divisions and disputes , viz. the meer looking [ beside the light within ] into the letter of the scriptures , which is so far from finishing any strife , that it feeds vain , foolish , loose mindes , such as thine that hates the light , none else , with fuel , and furnishes their fancies with matter for many more strifes , then they would find cause for , if they kept to the light within alone for their learning , or at least so as in that alone to look into the letter , where such as learn at the light , may read their own . yea , dark minds diving into the scripture , divine lyes enough out of it to set whole countreys on fire , as the divines have ever done . and as to the purity of the originals , under the conduct of which thou saist ye went from rome , wishing none may return thither under pretence of their corruption . i say , the purity of them , which thou pleadest in that height thou dost , is but pretended , and that more or less corrupted they are , to the contradicting thy self , thy self art forced to confess , p. . as is shewed above , but be they as they are , or how they will be , pure or not pure to a tittle , as thou assertest them , they are so far from relieving you in your wearisom , wrathful strifes , that cum nemini obtrudi potest itur ad me , may your original text say , when the divines can have leisure to cease a little from their strife about the holy matter and doctrine of it , then rather then sit still , and be quiet or be idle from their common calling , which is contention , they 'l role sysiphus his stone , and be at wars , and tear one another about the very letter , and their original transcripts of it , and try that out tooth and nail , whether they be true or no , in every letter , tittle , point , and iota , as they were written as the first . yea , o curas hominum ! though for truth , and wisdom , and the scriptures sake , which i own , and honour as holy , just , and good , and of precious use to such as know and obey the truth , i am become such a fool with them , by answering them according to their folly , as to make this one ski●mish among them about the scripture , that i may bring some of them to the truth and light of god in them , in which only the union is , that they may cease henceforth from their & stirs strifes , which light til they turn to , i testifie to them that their way is as slippery places in the dark , in which they will be driven on till they fall therein , that their feet are swift to shed blood , that wasting and misery are in their wayes , and the way to true peace they know not , yet this one thing i must say too , and of our vniversity scriblers , pro scripturis , that as there are no men in the world more up to the ears in strife about the scripture , and their own fancies on it as to matter and letter , than the scribes are , so there is no one thing that the scribes are striving , scuffling and scolding at each other more about , than about their scriptures . that light or word within , and not the letter is the foundation . first , i shall take account of what thou falsely assertest concerning the scriptures being a foundation . thou affirmest the scriptures to be the foundation of the prophets and apostles spoken of eph. . . pag . saying of them that men may quietly repose their souls upon them in beleeving and obedience , and of your selves thus are we built , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. on the foundation of the apostles and prophets , and calling them . page . the foundation of that world which he hath set up in this world as a wheel * within a wheel his church . and page . the foundation of faith , hope , and obedience . and page . the foundation of all that faith , and obedience which he requires at our hands . and page . the great and blessed foundation of truth . all this i own to be very true of the word of god of which the scripture speaks , but it is utterly false as uttered by thee of the scriptures . the falsehood of which appears plainly by this argument . . argument , that which is the great and blessed foundation of all that truth , faith , hope and obedience that god requires at mens hands , and of the church and of the apostles and prophets must be something , which was in being before any of these things were , for the foundation on which these are built must have a being before they can be built thereupon , every foundation being before the building can stand upon it . but ( though the word of god be so , yet ) the scripture is not before , but long after that truth , faith , hope and obedience , which god requires at mens hands , and long after the church , and long after the apostles and prophets were , yea after those apostles and prophets were respectively , who were the respective pen-men thereof . therefore the scripture , the writing , the letter , the greek and hebrew text is not the foundation of any of these things . the first proposition is so true that it were no less then disparagement to i. o's wisdom , & to suppose him to be mentis inops to go about to prove it to him , sith as he builds castles in the air , as easily thrown down , as erected , upon no better foundation , then his own fancy , thoughts , conjectures , and imaginations , yet he cannot be so senceless as to think , that that foundation , be it what it will , firm or brittle , on which any thing is built , must be before the building can stand thereon . and as for the minor in every part thereof it 's as undeniably true to any , save such as having once turn'd their backs upon the truth , are resolved to render themselves devoid of eithet sense or reason in their reasonings against it , then to own it . for none else can deny but the church , and the truth , faith , hope , and obedience of it , and the messengers , apostles , prophets , preachers of righteousnesse , such as were enoch , noah , abraham , lot , and others , were in the truth , faith , hope , obedience of the gospel , and also built upon christ the light , the word of god , the rock of ages , before moses dayes , who is unversally supposed , at our vniversities , to have been the first pen-man of the scriptures . the grand master-place of scripture that is us'd in proof hereof , that the scriptures are the foundation , is ephes. . . where it 's said by paul to the ephesians , ye are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets , iesus christ himself being the chief corner-stone . hence it is strenuously stickled for , and as confidently , as cloudily concluded by our doting doctors , and dreaming divines , that the church of god , as to all her faith , hope , obedience , knowledge of the truth , is built upon the apostles and prophets writings as that which is there called the foundaeion ; whereas were they but at leisure from that lesser and lower literature , wherein they are lost from the lord , and the light and life of god , and the letter also , which issued forth from thence , to look into the light , and by it into the letter it self , they more blindly labour for , then truly learn by , they would soon see that the foundation of the apostles and prophets there spoken of , is not the apostles and prophets themselves , much less uncertain transcribed copies of those few fragments of their letters , and some other honest mens true stories of what was done in their times , good instructions , memorandums , and litteral recommendations of wholsome laws and statutes , most of which as laid down in the letter , [ saving that they remain in the truth and substance , whereof they were the types , figures and shadows ] are above -years since cancelled and abolished , promises , prophesies , psalms , proverbs , parables , occasional letters , epistles , and other writings , which such as fell into a foolish following , and falling down before outward images , and from the infallible spirit it self , that their scriptures were written to keepe men to , found and fardelled together , and fram'd in their own fancies into a foundation of the faith , and of all the whole fabrick of religion to be for ever framed and founded upon ; but christ iesus himself , who is there also called the chief corner-stone , and pet. . . that living stone , disallowed indeed of men , but chosen of god , and precious , on whom the saints , even all together with the apostles and prophets , and the whole houshold of god , as fellow-citizens , and lively stones , are built up a spiritual house , to offer spiritual sacrifices yea all into one holy temple or habitation of god through the spirit : this is the true and sole foundation of all the matters before mentioned , christ iesus the rock of ages , on whom whoever believes , shall not be ashamed : christ the living word of god , that also quickneth , whose words are spirit and life to the hearers of his voice , whose words , uttered in the heart , do good to those that walk uprightly ; this is the stone that you babel-builders refuse , which god hath made the very head stone in the corner , psal. . . matt . . this verbum lumen internum , christ the eternal , internal word in the heart , and light of the world , given a light to the nations , and [ as such ] gods salvation to the ends of the earth , and the precious sanctuary to such as believe in his light , is that stone of stumbling , and rock of offence to such as thee i.o. that stumble at the word in their wrestlings for the letter , being disobedient unto both , whereunto also they are appointed , and a gin and a snare to the inhabitants of that earthly jerusalem which is from beneath , the fleshly church of jews and christians , according to the meer letter , which is in bondage with her children , isa. . . . . pet. . and that it is christ iesus alone , and not the scriptures that is there call'd the foundation , is most evident , not onely from the text it self , wherein jesus christ himself is instanced in , as such [ for the same that is call'd the foundation , is there also call'd the corner-stone ] but also from other scriptures , whereby the truth hereof is yet more illustrated , viz. isa. . . where speaking both in the foregoing and following verses , of the false foundations , short beds , narrow coverings , and lying refuges , that the drunkards of ephraim , that erred from the simple plain truth , thorow the wine of their own wisdom , and were out of the way , and stumbled in wisdom and iudgement , thorow the strong drink of their own devised doctrines , so that they could not discern nor learn the lords doctrine that was divined to them thorow the stammering lips of such as ministred precept upon precept , line upon line , here a little , and there a little , among them ; he summons all to fix their faith on the one onely true and firm foundation , saying , behold ! i lay in sion for a foundation , a stone , a tryed stone , a precious corner-stone , a sure foundation , he that believeth shall not make haste : where it 's very observable , as it is in eph. . . that the self-same that is called the corner-stone , is also ca'led the sure foundation . likewise cor . where it's expresly said , that other foundation can no man lay then that is laid , which is jesus christ . now if no man can lay any other foundation of the church , which is god's building , then christ , whom the apostle sayes , ver . . he himself laid , as a wise master-builder , according to the grace of god given unto him , then all things else besides christ the word of god , the light of the world , and that measure of light that shines from him , which is not divided from him , any more then that of the sun from it , but one with him ; whatsoever men go about to lay as the foundation of the church , and her faith , hope , and obedience , are not truly , really , and properly so , but imaginarily , supposively fictitiously so , and but falsly so called , meerly seigned , found out , and founded onely in the fancies of foolish , blind babel-builders , which founders and their fictitious foundations , must be confounded : for the layers of a false foundation ( and such are all they , that with i.o. lay the letter , or traditions with the papists and iesuits he justles with , or any other then christ the light ) must come to confusion , as wel as the meer formalists & their wood , hey , stubble , trash , imitations , empty forms , and such like superstitions , and all sorts of superstructions of the babilonish builders upon the true : whereupon , as much as j.o. blesses himself in his holding the foundation , and feeds himself with hopes of salvation , so long as he is found holding that , though he build hay and stubble upon it , and his works come to be consumed , saying , p. . it will be well for us if we be found holding the foundation , if we build hay and stubble upon it , though our work perish , we shall be saved . yet alas , poor deluded man , j.o. thou mistakest thy self exceedingly ; it would be well for thee indeed if thou held'st the foundation , christ , the head , the light of men , thy person might then be saved , though thy work of wood , hay , stubble , will assuredly perish in the fire : but thou art far from being found holding that foundation , then which there is no other ; and found laying another , even thy uncertain transcripts of the greek and hebrew texts , and an outward fallible letter , and its points , and syllables , and tittles , and iota's , one jot or tittle of which if it fail , thou confessest all thy faith , and fabrick of religion , falls to the ground ; confessing also that 't was not impossible for the chiefest transcribers thereof to mistake in any thing ; yea , that they did fail in their work ; so rasing thy false , feigned , and fallible foundation to the ground , and pulling down thy house with thy own hands , like the foolish woman : and as for the true foundation , christ the light and spirit , which are infallible , stable , firm , fixt , sure and certain , as every true laid foundation ought to be , and is , though thy flexible letter is not so , which is of it self an argument of its not being the churches foundation of faith and obedience , this true one , i say , is by thee trampled on , and flouted at , under the names of , nescio quod lumen , quem deum , seu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 deo quopiam melius , merae tenebrae , aecitas , fines salutares quod attines , non sufficiens ad salutem , christus fanaticorum imaginarius & fictitius , qualitas nescio quae divina seu anima mundi , omnibus misia quae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sit i.e. vere nihil , ex. . s. . . . doctorem infallibilem nihil habens commune , cum scripturis , ex. . s. . i know not what light , what god , or cornucopia , better then any god , infallible doctor , inconsonant utterly with the scripture , imaginary christ of the qua. i know not what divine quality or soul of the world , made up of all things , that is all things , and truly nothing . moreover , if none can lay other foundation then christ , then paul himself by these words , ephes. . . ye are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets , cannot rationally be concluded ( as he is both senselesly and reasonlesly conceived by i.o. ) to intend any other foundation , then christ himself ; neither can he be understood by any that have common understanding , to intend himself and other prophets and apostles , or his own , and their meer outward writings , for then there are two , whereof they must have one foundation of faith and obedience , and we another ; they christ the light , and we them and their letter ; which is an absurdity utterly unbecoming men call'd christs ministers to imagine , seeing the foundation ( quicquid id est ) of the church , and her faith , hope and obedience from the beginning of the world to this day , is but one and not many ; yea , as the faith is one , and the baptism one , and the temple and building one , and the body one , and the spirit one , and the lord , and god , and father of all saints is one , so the foundation is but one , what ever it is , eph. , , . or else secondly , if there be but one foundation for us and them to stand upon , and that be the apostles and prophets themselves , or thei writings , then incidit in scyllam , &c. the apostles and prophets must be supposed to be built not upon christ , but upon themselves , & their own writings as to their faith , and saving knowledge of the truth , or at least on the writings one of another , which is an imagination as ( if not more ) absolutely absurd than the former , yet of the two , i.o. having his liberty to make his choice , ex dieabus malis , of those two evils seems to chuse the latter , saying , pag. . that as far as their personal concernments as saints and beleevers lay in the scriptures , and in order to their saving knowledge of the truth , they studied the writings and prophesies of one another . i conclude then against i.o. that by that clause , the foundation of the prophets and apostles , is not intended their writings , as if they laid their own scriptures for the foundation of the church , and her faith , hope , obedience , but that which the apostles themselves were built upon together with the whole church or houshold of god , which could not be , nor was their own writings but christ the light the letter indeed is the foundation laid by i.o. and men of his mould of old , for his wheel in a wheel , as he speaks , or his false church , whose works like his own run round on , and are found to have in them wheel within wheel ; but as for the true church of the living god , which is the wheel , that will turn the worlds wheels upside down , it never did , doth , nor ever will acknowledge any fallible letter , or meer transcribed text , or any other thing to be the true , great and blessed foundation of truth , faith , hope , or obedience , then christ iesus , the same yesterday , and to day , and for ever ; who was before it , now is , and ever will be , when the letter shall be no more at all . . argument whatsoever the scripture it self layes down and testifies to be the only true foundation of the apostles and prophets , and of the whole church of god , and of her faith , hope , and obedience , and of all truth , that is the only true foundation of all these things . but the scripture it self layes down and testifies christ alone the light , the living word , and not it self to be the only true foundation of the things aforesaid ; therefore christ alone the light , spirit , and inward living word , that is nigh in the heart , and not the scripture it self is the only true foundation of them . the first and affirmative part of the minor is not denied by thee [ as the major cannot be ] and if thou deny the second part of the minor which is negative , and denies the scripture to testifie of it self in any place that its the foundation , then assign where the scripture calls it self the foundation , or else own that it doth not , and so that it is not the foundation at all , much less the truest , or the only one , as thou often intimatest , either expresly , or in terms equivalent , it is [ ep. p. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not any means of standing out of utter uncertainty about all sacred truth if the heb punctation be invention ; also , p. , . not a truer foundation for for faith to repose it self upon . ] . argument , if the scripture be the foundation for the church , and all her faith and repentance to be founded and grounded upon , then either there was no foundation for it before the scripture , or else they who lived before the scripture had one foundation for their faith , and we another , and so consequently there hath been two foundations for the one faith , or the one church or body of christ , but there was a foundation before the scripture , and there are not two foundations of faith , one to that part of the body of christ , and of gods building , that was before the scripture , and another for that part that is built since the scripture , therefore the scripture is not the foundation . argument . the foundation of the faith must be something that is infallible , firm , fixt , certain , stable , sure , and inalterable , as the light spirit and word within onely is , and gods foundation , tim. . the foundation of god sure to a tittle for error minimus in principio , for major in medio maximus in fine , the least fault or errour , and deviation in the principle , or foundation of any building grows greater toward the middle , and is greatest at the top , as it is seen in a very tower if the bottome or basis stands never so little awry as is discernable , it is discerned more in the middle and much more still as it ascends higher . but the scripture , letter , hebrew , and greek texts ( how ever i.o. pleads their integrity in every apex , point , tittle and iota ) yet are [ as i have shewed above more at large in answer to his long tattle about the tittles and points and indentity of lections of the letter ] by his own confession mistaken and mistranscribed in small things , yea and in some matters of more moment and importance in the best transcribed copies of the original text , therefore the text or letter of the scripture cannot be a fit foundation for the churches faith , but the spirit and word within is onely so . psal. . . the earth , and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved faith christ , the word of god , i bear up the pillars of it , and that is the reason why the earth is so shaken as it is , and reels to and fro , that it is removed as a cottage , and all helpers and healers avail nothing , because they reject the corner stone , christ the word , for if the foundations be destroyed , what can the righteous do ? psal. . . isa. . , . each of which arguments hold good against the letters being the rule , the light , the witness of god , the gospel , the power of god to salvation , the only means or way of coming to the saving knowledge of god , word of god , and what ever other high titles i. o. intitles it by , as appears in their order . that the light or word within , and not the scriptures , are the rule or canon . another thing thou assertest of the scripture is , that it is the only rule of the faith and obedience of gods church , p. . that it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that more sure word of prophesie to be attended to , pet. . , , . not in its self ( for so it was as sure as sure could be ) but in its giving out its evidence to us then that great miracle of miracles , greater than which the apostles of christ never did behold or hear , viz. that voice which came from the most excellent glory , this is my beloved son , which we have greater security from , and by ( according to peter ) then they had in , and by that miraculous voice . that moses and the prophets , which who so will not hear , will not be perswaded to repent , though one arise to them from the dead , luke . . that word , law , and testimony mentioned , isa. . . according to which who speaks not are said to be in the dark so that there is no light in them , by which what every one sayes , be it what or whom it will , church , or person , if it be in , and about the things of god , concerning his will or worship , or our obedience to him is to be tried . that which we are sent to that which is , and is asserted to be the rule and standard , the touchstone of all speakings whatsoever , that that must speak alone for its self , which must try the speaking of all , but its self , yea it s own also . see tr. . c. pertotum . that which is the ordinary , unmoveable , perfect and siable infallible rule of gods worship , and our obedience so that ther 's no further need we should be instructed with any other new , daily revelations in the knowledge of god , and our duties . yea the most perfect rule that is given us of god , whereby to attain to eternal salvation , so that after the compleating of that which is called the canon of the scripure ye beleeve and profess no new revelations about the common faith of the saints , or the worship of god are either to be expected or admitted as well such as are made * by the spirit or light within , or inward speculation , or heavenly inspiration or speech of angèls to our instruction in the knowledge of god , and our duty in order to our obtaining eternal salvation , which all are a vain , unprofitable , false , uncertain , hazardous , and utterly , unnecessary means which the fanaticks fain toward the knowledge of god and his will. yea that by which we are commanded to try and examine and prove all revelations , visi●ns , spirits , ( god's no more excepted then the devil's ) dreams , inward appearances , or speaking , or prophesyings , within , or from within , whether true or false , without difference or distinction , cor. . . thes. . . joh. . . ex. . s . the onely rule of the faith and obedience of gods church . page . so ex. . sect . . rep. in the handling of this head concerning the scriptures being in the nature of the canon , rule , or standard to the church of god , i say , in the nature , use and office of a canon ( for as to the measure or bounds of your canon , i have elsewhere spoken to it i shall have to do with thee i. o. and thee t. d. also , who both are as like one another in your ignorant invectives against the qua. as enemies to the scripture , for not owning it to be what your fore-fathers , and your selves have also ignorantly canonized it into the name of viz. the standing rule of faith and life , as if one of you had been spit out of the others mouth . as for thy self i.o. having ex. sect . , . professed thy faith , or rather fancy and opinion , that the scripture is the only most perfect rule of the faith , and worship of god , thou stilest thy teeological subsequent foolish defence thereof , a proving of it against 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the haters of the scriptures , as if all they that side not with thy false , weak , supportless suppositions about the scriptures , were presently to be condemned as enemies to them without any more ado . and as for thee t.d. thou stilest it a spitting out of vemome , and bringing in of another gospel , to deny the scripture to be the rule : thou engagest me in a publick discourse about this question , whether the scriptures are the word of god or no ? and then when i owning the word of god to be the word of god , publickly denied the scripture that is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or writing ( not mentioning the paper or inke , that is the foolish phrase of thy own inserting , to be the word of god , in a shameful way of tergiversation , thou ran'st away from the termes of thy question , and never camest near them any more , but leftest quite another question in its room , viz. whether the matter contained in the writings , be the rule of faith and life ( as the reader may see in the , and . pages of thy first pamphlet ) sir , you cannot beleeve us so simple , surely , as to affirm the scriptures in that sense the word of god , but we mean the matter contained in the writing , whether that be the rule of faith and life ? which matter written of , and the writing or scripture are two different matters ( say i still ) as the lanthorn and the candle , or the light contained therein , so that thy doings t.d. that day was altogether as silly a peece of business , as if one that had challenged another to dispute it openly with him , that the lanthorn is the candle or the light being come as t.d. did , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , with much pompous shew or fancy upon the publick place of hearing before hundreds to that purpose , should say to his antagonist on this wise , sir , you cannot beleeve me to be so simple , surely , as to affirm the lanthorn to be the candle or light , but i mean the candle or light contained in the lanthorn , whether that be a rule for men to walk by in a dark night or no ? a question which was never denied by his antagonist at all ; for neither i , nor any qua. that i know , deny the word of god to be the word of god , which is contained in the scripture , or that the scripture or writing declares thereof , any more then we deny the candle and light to be a candle and a light , which is contained in the lanthorn ; but that the writing it self is that word of god written of in it , or that the lanthorn is the ' candle or the light , ' that is in the lanthorn , at least that the word of god is the proper name of the scripture ( as to his shame , i. o. hath undertaken to prove in latine against the qua. of whom he saith they understand him not in that tongue ) this i , and the qua. do deny against him and thee , and all men , for our denial of which dream of our benighted doctors and divinet , we have been yet damned down through the false suggestions , and silly insinuations of their busie ear-wigs the priests by all parliaments and powers that have yet appeared at the helm in this nation , and deemed unmeet to be let into the lists of that liberty of conscience allowed to other men , and doomed out as deniers of the fundamentals of religion . thus t.d. [ as the king of spain and forty thousand men , went up a hill , and then came down agen . ] gathered his forces and fellow-souldiers together , pitching his own day of battel ; betokening to obtain some eminent victory over the qua. and as soon as he came into the field laid down his arms , and confessed he had no quarrel against the qua. as to the question he was to dispute about , as stated and held by them ; so like some bettle he flyes aloft with a humming noise into the ayr , and at last flaps suddenly down into a peece of cow-dung . nevertheless t.d. that thou mightest for very shame seem to do something for the scripture , even for the book it self , and letter of it , as well as for the good matter therein contained , sith thou wast come upon the stage on that account , after some parley that was held a while between my self and thee about the latitude and limits of your supposed rule in which thy pitiful poor put offs of the proofs by me urged against thee , are elsewhere discovered ; thou rouzest up thy self into a new proposal of thy question in these terms , p. . viz. whether the hooks commonly called the old and new testament , were appointed by god for a standing rule of faith and life , which i denying the books to be , thou repliest on this wise , viz now you have spit out your venome , which i knew you were big with , and i will say to you ( as the apostle ) if any man bring any other gospel then what we have received , let him be accursed : to which when i replied , i am sure the gospel you preach will never bring men to heaven . thou relatest thy self replying thus , viz. then friends you hear his acknowledgement , and how well he deserves the curse denounced against him . by all which passages the reade may observe these things , . that thou judgest the scriptures to be not only the standing rule of faith and life , but also to be the gospel . . that there is no other gospel designed by god as the standing rules , then the scriptures . . that he that owns any thing else besides the scriptures to be the rule or the gospel , and he that denies the gospel , the ministers of the letter preach , which is but the letter , and the scripture , to be unable to bring men to heaven [ though i intended by those words , viz. the gospel you preach , the false doctrine , and unholy matter ye hold forth when ye deny the light , and plead a necessity of sinning in this life , and hold men to be justified and guiltless , while under the guilt of murder and adultery , and damn it as a doctrine of devils , to affirm any perfect purging from sin in this world , and such like , and not the scriptures , which ye are far enough from preaching truly the very letter of ] is big with , and spits out venome against the scriptures , and brings another gospel , then that ye have received , and to be held accursed , and well deserves the curse denounced against him by the apostle , gal. . . and in all these matters thou art coincident with i.o. who [ in substance ] asserts with thee the very same , alluding to the self-same place , gal. . in proof of the scriptures to be the gospel , and the only perfect rule of faith and worship , ex. . s. . rep. but alas poor , simple , silly , unlearned and ignorant men , ye may curse them that bring another gospel , then that ye have received indeed , who never at all yet received the true gospel , which the galatians received from paul , who was not a minister of the letter , to shew which is all your gospel , but of the spirit , and of the light which only , while the dead letter , cannot do it , saves , and brings to heaven , and gives the life , which light and spirit is the old gospel which we bring and minister to men , while you , for your meer letters sake , alter and despise it ; i say ye may curse in pauls words , but pauls curse will come upon you , which being causelesly denounced against us by you , cannot come on us . now before i come to urge any new arguments against the scripture or letters being in the authority of the only standing rule , as both t.d. p. . of his second toy , and i.o. p. . assert it to be , concluding that there is no other rule or measure of judging and determining any thing about the saving doctrine of the gospel but the writing , the scriptures i shall take some account of some of t. d's . and i. o's . weak rushy kinde of reasonings , by way of answer to such arguments as are urged by us against their reasonless suppositions in that behalf . beginning first with t. d's jejune replies to what reasons were rendred by us to him against his dream , that there is no other standing rule of faith and life but the scriptures , and so proceeding to an examination of his , and i. o's . excentrick exhibitions of the scriptures being the only rule thereof interchangeably as i see occasion . the first argument urged against thee t.d. at the third publick dispute ( as thy self relatest it in p. , . of thy first pamphlet ) to prove the scripture not the only rule of faith and life was this . arg. . if there be another standing rule then the scripture is not it . but there is another standing rule , therefore the scripture is not it . the minor thou deniest , and sayest expresly that there is no other standing rule , but the scripture , which minor my proof of which thou rendrest as weakly as well as thou canst , i proved in these very terms , viz. if the scripture it self sends us to another , viz. the spirit as our rule , then it self is not the onely rule : but it self doth so ; therefore it self is not it . the minor of this being denied by thee was proved thus , that which the scripture bids us walk in , by , after , or according to , that it sends to , but the scripture it self bids us walk in , by , a fur , or according to the spirit , therefore the scripture sends us to another besides it self as our rule , and consequently is not ( it self , the only standing rule of faith and life ; in proof of this minor , gal. . . was cited , and some other scriptures which thou leavest out ( whether as one loath to tell too much of that truth that makes against thee or no , i will leave to thy conscience , and not say , but some may likely think so for all that ( as namely gal. . . besides i know not whether i instanced in any other , which i shall here take that leave which in that confused crowd of conference thou strovest ( as thou sayest thy self ) to out-word us by , for fear of being confuted , thou wouldest not then grant me , to urge by way of addition at this present , viz. rom. . , , , . phil. . and to open as i see occasion , in order to the service of that truth i am now pleading against thee . nevertheless it were not for the truths sake that it may more fully appear , there is little need to say any thing more to thee than thou thy self hast set down , in thy reply to that text , viz. this i say , walk in , or rather to , or according to the spirit , and ye shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh ( for it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ‑ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the dative case , which without the preposition's is elsewhere engli●ht by , or according to viz. gal. . . phil. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as many as walk according to this rule , let us walk by the same rule ) is so jejune and wretched , and poor , and miserably blinde and naked , being no other then this , viz. that phrase doth denote the priniple , not the rule of our obedience in that place , where if by principle thou intendest the foundation , which the word principles is sometimes used as synonomous unto , * then thou quite overthrowest i.o. and helpest me against him however , but that is no news , for beside that each of you often contradicts himself , ye are , for all your siding to vindicate , the same points of false doctrine against the qua. so frequently sound contradicting each other , that in order to the consutation of you both , a man may finde contradiction enough either in each of your writings within themselves , or in the writing of one of you unto the other ; and so 't is in this case , for i.o. owns no other principle or foundation of discovery of divine truth , then the scriptures , for the faith to stand on , p. . but thou ownest the spirit to be the principle of obedience : . if the phrase denotes the principle only , and not the rule as it does not , for it denotes both ) yet the other places mentioned do denote more expresly the light and spirit , [ and not the letter ] to be the rule ; which said light and spirit , that is the power of god , to say the truth , is both the principle upon which all true faith is founded , and is to stand , cor . . in the movings of which , obedience is to be acted ; and also the rule according to which as it moves , leads , guides , directs , impowers ( and no otherwise ) all things that are at all , are to be both done and believed . and no less do all those phrases however denote , viz rom. . . . . . who walk not after the flesh , but after the spirit ; , then a being taught , led , guided , ruled , directed by , as well as moved , acted , and enabled from the spirit so or so to believe or do ; for it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which praeposition though join'd with the genitive , signifies contra , against , as gal. . the flesh lusteth , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 against the spirit ; yet with the accusative is secundum after & according to ; so that the light and spirit of christ within , is not onely the foundation upon which , the principle from which , but also that in which the standard , measure , guide , and rule of direction , by , after , or according to which the saints are to walk , believe , and do whatever they do in order to their pleasing of god , and standing uncondemned in his sight . and no less then so , doth phil. . . import , where paul to the saints at philippi , with the bishop and deacons , according to their several statures and degrees of growth in the light and spirit of christ , wishes all that were perfect ( as every one is that is faithful to his own measure ) to be so minded as himself ; yet leaving every one to believe , and judge by his own measure of light , not binding any one to his , till god himself should reveal things as he knew them , to those that were yet otherwise minded : neverthelesse ( quoth he ) whereunto we have already attained , let us walk , or steere our course by the same rule , let us mind the same thing : which same rule , or same thing that he wills all , though their measures of light may be different , to mind and walk by , he that shall dream it to be the letter of the scripture without , and not the inward light , grace , and spirit of christ , a measure and manifestation of which is according to the measure of the gift of christ distributing to every one severally , as he will , ( to some more , some less , some one , some two , yet to every one , one talent , at least ) given to every man to profit withall , to improve , trade with , and thrive by : matth. . . rom. . . . cor. . . . eph. . , . compared with psal. . . gifts to the rebellious also , pet. . , . i shall deem him to be more deservedly denominated a doter , then a doctor in divinity , or a true teacher of the things of god , and the gospel , seeing the so-call'd scripture-rule or canon , so much counted on , as that no other , neither inward light , nor word , nor revelations of the spirit , post completum , ejus canonem , as j.o. sayes , are at all to be admitted to the name , title , honour and authority of a rule to the church , according to j. o's . and t. d's . principles , was not yet bounded , nor compleated , nor come to its full coronation , canonization , consecration , and consignation , by any clerical convocation of divines ( as it did afterwards ) while paul wrote thus to the philippians , there being more of his own and other holy men's writings penned after this , besides the revelation of john , which j.o. on his own head , p. . calls the close of the immediate revelation of gods will in that way of writing . and whether the philippians had seen any scripture at all , much lesse any of the books ye call the new-testament , more then this that paul now wrote , when he wrote this to them , ( unless it may be conjectured from ph. . . that he himself wrote to them before , to the same purpose as now , and therefore sayes , to write the same things to you , is safe for you ) is questionable , and more then j.o. and t.d. with both their heads laid together , are able to prove ; therefore the same rule he bids them all walk by , according to their respective measures , and the same thing he bids them mind , was not the scripture , but the light and spirit , which , having reveal'd something to them , would , as they walked perfectly by the rule thereof , reveal all things to them in due time , that he knew , and they were ignorant of : for though the rule appointed , design'd , and authoriz'd by god for all men to mind as one man , and to walk by from the beginning of the world to this day , is but one , i. e. the light , word , and spirit in the heart and conscience ; yet the degrees in which it is dispenced are different ; and every one that is found faithful in the improvement of what is committed to him , be it little or more , is crowned with the just account of faithfulness , v prightnesse , and perfection , and title to the joy , and right to have more committed to him : yea , as if any man walk up to what he hath already attained , to the understanding of , the same shall have more abundance , if any will do his will [ saith christ ] i.e. so far as he knows , the same shall know of the doctrines that are taught , whether they are of god , or whether the teachers thereof speak of themselve , , joh. . . . such shall discern , and distinguish , and see , and grow into the spirit of iudgement and of a sound mind , and into a cleare sight of the mind of god , who manifests himself to such , as he does not to the world , who receive not the spirit of truth , which he gives to all in some measure , to convince them of sin , righteousnesse and judgement , and so to guide them out of sin , but that some resist him ; but to such as own truth , as receive him , and love and come to the light , which ●evil ones hate , loving flesh and darknesse more then it , because it reproves their ill deeds , that their deeds may be manifested more and more , and come to be wrought in god , he leads into all truth ; while such proud pharisaical praters , as vniversity-bred schollars , stubborn students , and rebellious rabbies , scripture-searching scribes , that keep scribling , and preaching , and disputing all their dayes , as if they did delight to know gods wayes , enquiring after the ordinances of iustice in order [ as they pretend ] to the knowledge of what is to be done ; and yet in what they know naturally , as brute beasts , by a habit of reading chapter and verse , as as a horse that is versed in a way to the pasture he is used to run in , in those very things they corrupt themselves , saying to god , when he tells them any troublesome truth , depart from us , we desire not the knowledge of thy wayes ; ●●taining the truth in unrighteousness that is told them within by the light of god himself in their own hearts , not receiving the love of it that they may be saved ; having pleasure in unrighteousness , and no pleasure in the truth ; such shall have at last that they have taken away from them , and in the just iudgement of god be blasted and blinded , and given over to strong delusion to believe lyes , that they may be damned : nevertheless , not as a principle onely , but as a rule of obedience , to such as truly love her , the light within , the spirit of god , the word nigh in the heart , and wisdom not onely with , but without the letter , ever was , is and will be profitable to direct , eccl. . and no less then this that the spirit is the standing rule of faith and life to the church , as well as the principle thereof , doth that gal. . . . evince , where the apostle having spoken so much before in ch . . and the ● . verse of this . of the lustings of the spirit against the flesh , or evil spirit in us that lusteth to envy , of walking according to the spirit , living according to the spirit , being led by the spirit , of sowing to the spirit , the crop of which is the fruit of the spirit , the everlasting life , the new creature , while the crop reaped from the fulfilling the lustings of the flesh is more and more works of the flesh , and corruption to death and condemnation , at least adds by way of encouragement , that the walkers by the spirit might not not be weary of well doing , thus much , viz. that so many as walk according to this rule ; which rule is not the scripture , as the divines and doctors citing that place , as j. o. does twice over at least , viz. ex. . s. . ex. s. . to that purpose , do ignorantly divine , but the spirit , the walking in , and after which , is so often hinted at above , and the light within , which , and not the letter without , makes manifest both the works of the flesh , and darknesse , and the fruits of the spirit , and the light : for the letter indeed doth declare , that the works of the flesh , and the fruits of the spirit , are manifest ; but it declares also , that that which doth manifest them both , is the light , by which also they were manifested before the letter was : which letter likewise doth de jure declare what is to be done , and not done ; but onely the light , de facto , what is done , and what is not done , of the mind and will of god , thereby inwardly , nigh , & more immediately revealed and declared , as 't is ad extra onely , and more mediately and afar off by the letter : for all things that are reproved or approved , are [ as so ] made manifest by the light the letter came from : and whatsoever doth primarily and principally make manifest good and evil , right and wrong , crooked and straight , truth and falshood , simplicity and deceit it self , and darkness it self , and all false spirits , sound doctrine and seducing , is that light and spirit which comes from god , and shines more or lesse in all mens hearts : this as it is the principle , as j.o. foolishly affirms the letter only is , p. . or means of discovery ; so it , and not the writing only , as he there blindly writes , is also the rule , or measure of judging and determining about the saving doctrine of the gospel ; this is , as the light of the outward world is in it , the discovery of it self , and of all things else in their proper appearances : this is certum , rectum , regula , quae est mensura sui & obliqui : hitherto are we sent ; this , and not the letter ( as i.o. childishly asserts , p. . ) is asserted to be the rule and standard , the touchstone of all speaking whatsoever , that must speak alone for it selfe , and try the speaking of all but it selfe , yea it s own also . by all which it is evident how the light and spirit is designed by god to be the unchangeable standing-rule of faith and life , and the churches directory in all divine doctrines , to be believed and practised , and not the letter of the scripture , at least not the letter onely , which is the matter very stifly affirmed , and stickled for by j.o. and t.d. the latter of which stands up to vindicate it in these terms , see t. d ' . second pamphlet , p. . that the scriptures are the word of god , and the rule of faith and life , and that there is no other standing-rule but the scriptures : the former in these , if every man's private light , ( so he floutingly calls that particular measure of that publike light of christ , which is one , and the same in all ) be the rule of yeilding obedience unto god , then so many men , so many rules ; but the divine canon is but onely one ; and that the holy scripture is that only rule , is abundantly shewn , quoth j.o. before o in proof of which saying the rule is but one , j.o. quotes that gal. . . which speakes not of the scripture at all : and eph. . . which speaks expresly of the spirit of god , as the next verse does of christ the word , which we confess is the rule , but neither the one nor the other of the scripture , isa. s. . which speaks of the law and testimony , which are the light and spirit , as i shall shew anon : for this place is three times at least alluded to by j.o. to the like little purpose , and not the letter of the scripture . obj. and if any say , but is not the sripture profitable to direct , yea for doctrine , for reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousnesse , able to make wise to salvacion , to make a man of god perfect , thorowly furnished , or as the word is , perfected into all good works , according to tim. . , , . and so to be the onely rule , canon , standard , touch-stone in all cases ? rep. this place is insisted upon , or quoted three or four times by i. o. to whom i say , howbeit there are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 holy scriptures , as i have said elsewhere , that are not written with ink and pen , nor ingraven in stones ; but with the finger and spirit of the living god upon the fleshly tables of mens hearts ; which make such as timothy was , who knew that spirit in himself , spoke of iob . . and that inward writing and inspiration of the almighty that onely giveth the understanding , which are most profitable for doctrine , correction , reproof , instruction in righteousness ; and , without any outward scripture , to perfect the man of god , fit and furnish him ( as no outward scriptures can possibly do ( without these ) for any , much less for every ) good work , which inward scripture , in which holy men read the gospel before 't was ever written outwardly with ink and pen , foreseeing that god would justifie the gentiles through faith in christ the light , preached the gospel four hundred years before your scripture , canon , or rule ad extra , was ever written . howbeit i say , there is a scripture ad intra , that ye read little in , testified to , and talk't of by your external text , ye onely talk for cor. . yet to j. o. i grant the outward scripture , and that in its integrity , so far as free from corruption by mis-transcription , and mis-translation , to be holy , just , good , useful and profitable for all the things specified in the text of paul to timothy , when read and understood in that light , wisdom and spirit that gave it out by those holy men , which onely knows the mystery of its own minde and meaning therein , and reveals it ' also to babes and simple honest hearts , that come at ' fools to it , looking to the lord alone for wisdome , out of whose mouth comes that knowledge and understanding , whereby the scripture is seen as to the spirituality and substance of it when the plain things of it are hid from the wise and prudent that furfeit with their own conceited science , and lean to their own animal understanding , and in that give their several senses and sentences on it , for the natural ; or as the word is , cor. . , , . * the animal man receiveth not the things of the spirit of god , not the hidden wisdome of god , which none of the princes of this world know , cor. . , , . &c. which in a mystry , or meer riddle to their degenerate reason , is uttered in the very outward scripture , neither can the animal man by his wisdome from beneath ( for all his bitter envying and strife within himself against all that oppose him , wherein he glories and lyes against the truth , the fruit of which envy is confusion and every evil work , which wisdome is but earthly , sensual , * animal , * devillisbly deceitful , jam. . , , , , . ) know the things of god , for they are spiritually discerned , and by the spiritual man only , that discerns and judges all , and is falsely judged by all , though truly discerned by none that are beneath him . the outward scripture i say is profitable to such as timothy was , to men of god to make them , who are wise in the spirit , wiser and wiser through their faith in the light to their own and others salvation , and to furnish such a minister as timothy was , who knows when , and ( being in the spirit ) how , and how far forth to use it for every good work in his ministry : and such as are full of might and power first by the spirit of the lord upon them , as micah was , mic. . and as apollo was , are mighty also in the scripture , and furnished mightily to confound the scripture-searching scribes , and all gain-sayers of the light , as they were in their times . so that we deny not the scriptures ad extra to be many wayes useful , profitable in their place and time , where they are to be read , as they are not , in so much as the tenth part of the world , and where they are read in the light , & by them , who live in that light , that gave them forth , which are not the hundreth part of those , that usually read and search them ; but will all this prove them to be what i.o. and t.d. contend so stiffly to have them be . viz. in that high authority of the rule , nay the only most perfect standing rule of all true belief and holy life , before the very light and spirit of god they had their very original supreme being from , thorow the hands of holy men , as but subordinate instruments in their first purity as writings , except that little that was pend by god himself , which we now have not ? which scriptures yet as to the being they now have , are handed to us from no higher principle then the transcription of meer fallible , and as i.o. sayes , un-inspired men ? ab sit imaginatio , let the thoughts hereof be far from us that the scripture is the only rule , for if we should grant it to be ( so far as truly transcribed in the copies of the original ) a rule at all , or a secondary rule , which name of rule is more than it any where calls it self by , yet the prime , most perfect rule it is not , much less is it the only rule to the church or any men ; and though we are as forward as any , on a due account , to own the profitablenss of the very letter , as it declares of the words of truth and uprightness , and the doctrine that is according unto godliness , and to own its great usefulness , as to the purposes premised , and so affirm that the dead letter , so far as not depraved from its primitive purity , doth as truly answer and hold proportion with the light , and living word , as the shadow doth with the substance , the life-less picture with the living person it represents , and as the voice , which is imago verbi the image of the word , with the word it is the image of , or the eccho , which is the image of the voice , doth with the voice it answers to , insomuch that as quae conveniunt in aliquo tertio santidem , what holds measure or weight , and keeps correspondency or proportion with a third thing , that agrees with the standard or sealed canon , agrees also with the standard it self ; so whose life squares truly and substantially with the letter convenes with the light and spirit it imediately issued out from ; and he that lives and speaks perfectly and adaequately according to the scripture , so far speaks and lives according to , and not besides the light and spirit , which the letter requires man to live , beleeve , and walk in and by , as neither doth or can he erre from the letter if he had never heard , read , or seen it , who answers the measure of the light and spirit that is lent him to live by ; yet for all this , as t.d. gives this reason for his untrue imagination why this part of the inspired scripture you have only is the only rule , and not any sermons or private religious discourses , which have , the same common ends with the scriptures , no nor yet any other writings but those ye have , if we could prove and produce ( as assuredly we shall anon ) any legitimate ones of divine inspiration , though otherwise as useful and profitable as those ye have , and agreeing therewith , viz. because god did not give order , quoth he , for the one , as he did , thinks he , for the other ; and there is no other scripture appointed of god to be a rule of faith and manners , but what is bound up in the bible ( and where he appointed that we must take account of you by and by ) for besides such inspiration to make a rule is necessary gods appointment of a writing to that end , saith he , god thought that sufficient which we have , therefore we can look upon no more with such regard at we do upon that . see t. d's first pamphlet , p. , . , . and of his second pamphlet p. , . the difference , quoth he , is in gods arbitrary dispensation ; so do i give this reason of our true assertion , that howbeit the scripture is profitable , and may be useful and called [ as by it self yet it no where is ] a rule as it agree's with the light and spirit , where it is not adulterated by mans mistransciptions , mistranslations , misconstructions . yet the canon or most perfect and only standing rule it is not because god did never authorize or appoint it so to be , but [ to retort back to t.d. in his own vain phrase ] thought the measure of his light and spirit every one hath from himself sufficient to make a standard of , besides whose inspiration of the said scripture to make a rule is necessary gods appointment of a writing to such an end , the difference lyes in god arbitrary dispensation , as well as in the excellent preheminence of the spirit and light above the letter , who would have that to be the rule , canon , standard , touchstone , which was so from the beginning of the world , two thousand years afore the letter was , even to this day , even the spirit , then which there can be no other designed by him to , that end , if i. o's words be true , ex. . s. . who saith vnicus est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divinus , the divine canon or rule , is but one , not more , then which also there is no other mentioned in the scripture by that name of the rule , but the light and spirit ( as i have shewed above ) out of those places where the rule is spoken of , and if there be , let i.o. or t.d. assign where , and hereupon , as he saith in the other case , so conclude i here in this , we can look upon none but the light and spirit , upon no letter with such regard as the only rule , as we do upon that . so then notwithstanding t. d's impertinent , unimportant , utterly untrue reply to this argument , that we are to walk by is our rule , but the spirit is that the scripture sayes we are to walk by , gal. . . therefore the spirit is the rule , which reply runs , viz. that phrase denotes the principle not the rule of our obedience in that place , the argument stands firm over the head of it ; for though it betoken the principle also , yet not only , nor exclusively of the rule , but rather the rule more evidently , and much more eminently than the other , yea that the spirit is the principle of all true obedience is professed positively by us , who own nothing to be truly done in way of true obedience unto god , nor the letter , but what is done from the principle , power , motion , assistance , and ability of the spirit of god , or that is done without the spirits in-dwelling ; yet in that place considered together with the rest above cited , it is most clear that the apostle speaks of the spirit principally as of the rule by which we are to walk [ and the word walk imports no less than the act of proceeding or going on ] and not the principle , original , or primum mobile , as i may say , from which we are to begin to act and move in way of obedience unto god. but as unanswerable as t. d's . answer is to our argument , yet it serves us very well to prove him a self-contradicter , as he and i.o. also are in multitudes of more matters besides , and in that it is as answerable as may to his wonted self ; for let but any reasonable reader observe , as it follows p. . of his first pamphlet what t.d. sayes next of all to this passage of the spirits being the principle , that is , the original or beginning of our obedience from which as being the primum movens and auxilians , beforehand moving and assisting , we are after to obey , and he shall see how he overthrows it himself in his own most immediately ensuing speech ; for howbeit he sayes the spirit is the principle of our obedience , which is as much as to say , that in which we first walk whose assistance must be antecedent to our true walking according to the letter , which is not denied by us , yet when we say the same with him he unsayes his own saying again , rather then he will side with us , for whereas i said , as his own self there relates , that the spirit is antecedent to the letter , so that none tan walk in the letter , till they walk in the spirit : he replies thus , viz. the spirit is subsequent to the letter , in respect of the assistance and ability which he gives to obedience ; and whereas you affirm , quoth he , that none can walk in the letter till they walk in the spirit , if walking in the spirit be meant of special assistance , which is as much as to say , if by that phrase of walking in the spirit , you mean the spirits being the prinriple of our obedience , t is false , for many walk in many things according to the letter without the spirits in dwelling ▪ as paul while a pharisee , was touching the righteousness of the law blameless , psa. . . in which , beside the rounds he runs in , and the contradiction to himself above , t.d. sayes false , for though none walk according to the letter in truth , and as to the spiritual obedience it calls for , without the spirits in-being and assistance , and power ; as the principle from which they must so walk , for howbeit paul walked according to the righteousness of the law , interpreted in sensu pharisaico , according to the pharisees outside glosses on it , who saw not into the marrow , mystery and spirituality of it , and was zealous of god , as to the literal observation of many things , yet till the law which is the light , and spiritual came to him who was in his carnal condition , and shewed him sin in the lust , of which christ expounds the law , matth. , he kept not the tetter as to the spiritual import and true intent and utmost meaning of the spirit and minde christ exprest therein to the spiritual understanding , though not to the natural , but abstained only from outward grosse acts of sin , and in his blind zeal persecuted the church , as ye in your wild-braind zial do at this day . the spirit is the principle from which we are to walke , and with ut which we cannot walke according to the letter , yet , to go round again , many walk according to the letter without the spirits in-dwelling ▪ so pervenire ad summum nisi ex principiis nemo potest ; pervenire ad summm sine principiis aliquis potest . this is the summe of t.ds. doctrine . besides if the spirit be the principle only that men begin to beleeve and obey from , and not the rule according to which they go on in beleeving and obeying , then it seems with thee faith is to be begun and begotten , and born by the spirit , but kept , preserved , and nourished up to perfection by the letter , which is a doctrine of deep dotage and deceit , for it is the spirit of christ , and the light that is both the creator and preserver , the author and finisher of the faith , insomuch that i may truly , and do here justly cry out against you blind , bewitching broachers , and your blind bewitched beleevers of it , as paul on the galatians , i marvel that ye should be so sottishly departed and degenerated from the simplicity of the primitive gospel so plainly declared in the very letter it self , which asserts the light , spirit and word within to be both the principle and the rule . o ye foolish prophets and foolish people who hath bewitched you that ye should be so reprobate as to the knowledge of the truth ? are ye so foolish as to fancy that when men have once begun in the spirit , they must be preserved in their faith , and regulated and made perfect by their fleshly attendences to the letter ? that the vniversi●ies and ministers meerly of it , and not of the spirit , are so lost about , and wrangling about , that to this day they are not agreed about the integrity of its text ? they that ministed the spirit among men at first , and were even by the very letter they wrote , ministers by whom men beleeved in the light , did they call them so much to the heeding or hearing of the letter themselves wrote , as to the hearing of the word of faith they preached and testified to both in their writings , and by word of mouth ? even that which before they wrote to them at all was nigh in their heart , and in their mouth that they might do it ? tell me ye that desire to be under the teachings of the letter only , not the light , do you not hear the letter telling of another rule besides it self , which it self doth only point to ? doth not the letter teach you the spirit and light is both the principle , and principal means also of discovery of right and wrong , as is shewed above ? doth the letter part the business of our obedience , as your party coloured discourses thereof would seem to make it do , between it self , and the spirit ? or say any where that the spirit is the principle , but the letter it self the rule of our obedience ? that the spirit creates , and the letter preserves faith , as t.d. dreamingly divines ? saith it not that the spirit is both ? and yet , o the muddin●ss ( not to say madness ) of our now ministers ! another while again even within the space of one page , behold o ye wandring wonderers , and wondering w●nderers after these vain men , and their whisling butterfly-businesses that would seem wise though they are but as wilde asses col●s , and ye shall see t.d. who affirms the spirit to be the principle , and that which creates faith , and the letter the rule that prese●ves it , affirming the letter to be both , i.e. not only the only rule of it but the principle of it also , and ascribing ( in these words p. . of his fi●st , as also in the . page of his second , god did not intend , nor give order for them , i.e. for more writings than we have in our bibles to be the rule , but hath assured us as much as is sufficient to create and preserve faith in the gospel we have ) both the first being , begetting and beginning of faith to the scripture ; as also i.o. ( who jumps with him in one , as they do together in most things ) in these words , ex. . s. . not only the begetting of faith , but also the building up in it while we live here is the end of the scripture * . what more is uttered by t.d. as to this head of the scriptures being the only rule , is in answer to this argument was urged against him as himself relates it , but to disadvantage p. . . of his first pamph. ) at the dispute on this wise : if the rule of faith and life was before the scripture was , then the scripture is not the rule &c. but the rule was before the scripture , therefore , &c. to which said answer of t. d's is no other than a giving of the whole cause in question between us , viz. whether the scripture , i.e. the writing or letter is the rule or no ? sor quoth t.d. ) your argument concludes nothing against us , for we assert the matier contained in the scripture is a standing rule , y●ur argument proves but that there was a rule before this writing ; we grant that god revealed himself by visions , dreams : since the gospel preached to adam there hath not been any increase of truths , quoad essentiam , sed tantum quoad explicationem ( as the learned speak of the articles of our faith ) the manner of conveyance is different then and now , but the matter or doctrines conveyed , still the same . rep. if this conclude nothing against you for as much as ye own doctrine or matter only contained in , and declared by the scripture , and not the letter to be the rule , how conclusive you outcries are against the qua. as that they are denyers of the scripture , a fool may feel , since they own the holy doctrine and matter in the scripture , which is the light , spirit , and word in the heart to be the rule as your selves do , and so to have been also before the scripture was , though they deny the meer writing to be the rule , which with your selves is not the matter conveyed , but meerly the manner of conveyance , not the essential truth it self , but only the form of its explication , which manner of conveyance or form of explication , your selves it seems do deny here to be the rule as well as we , with us asserting only the matter , truth , or doctrine contained and conveyed in the writing so to be . if ye assert no more than the truth , doctrine , or matters contained in the scriptures to be the rule , which matters thou thy self , t.d. p. , . of thy first pamph. sayest , is that word of faith the apostles preached , which was the word , we assert to be the rule , that is nigh in the heart , rom. and dare not assert your selves the meer letter or scripture so to be , i trow , wherein differ you from the quae. whom you quarrel with as deniers of the scriptures ? will you never be at quiet with the qua. but quarrelling against them , when they affirm the truths , wherein your selves assent to them , as much as when they deny the untruths , wherein ye dissent from them ? will you allow them neither to say the sound doctrines which your selves are forced to confess to , nor to gainsay the errors and false doctrines , which ye would fain force you false faith of upon them ? ye assert no more , but that the matter or doctrine conveyed , and truth explicated therein , which is the light , spirit , or living word , it self , is the rule , as thou sayest here , so denying the letter , writing , or meer text to be it ; we affirm nor more , nor less , yet ye own and justifie your selves as owners , and deny , and judge us as deniers as of of the scriptures : ye challenge us to dispute it against us that the scripture is the word of god , the only rule , &c. when we meet you before hundreds to that end , you confess with us , as christopher fowler did at reading , t.d. at sandwich , and i.o. doth in his declartion , or latine divinity disputations , * that you mean not the scripture formally considered , the letter , or text it self ye talk for , not the writing , but the holy matter and doctrine contained , held forth testified to therein the word in the heart , of which we say its a light , a rule , denying the letter only so to be ; yet the same truth , when ye tell it , is the truth , when we tell it as a lye : ye venture upon the open stage against us a vile persons in our tenets about the scriptures , when ye are there ye verefie the very self-same truth we vindicate against you , and say with us the scripture or writing which is the formality of the scripture , quae dat esse rei ) sormally considered is not the word , nor the rule nor any thing but a dead letter , only the matter and truth of the text testified to is the word , rule , light , &c. as we say it is only : yet when ye go away , though from the first to the last ye give us the cause , yet we must give you leave , or else you will steal it , to carry , away the colours , and boast and brag , and vapour as the men that had the victory , till , by venting your lyes so fast to manifest the qua. folly , ye fling out your own folly to the view of all men . t.d. but ( quoth t.d. p. . . pamph. all this while you go about to delude the simple , as if you denied only this way of writing to have alwayes been the only way of conveyance , and you magnifie the spirit , that with more security ye may throw down the letter of the scripture , and if you would speak out plainly , that ye call the spirit , will be found to be the dictates of your consciences blinde and corrupt as they are the lord knows , and you are no further bound to obey the letter of the scripture then you are willing to obey it . rep. as for thy lyes of the friends of truth , that light stuff like the chaffe the winde will drive away : the lord knows , whose consciences are blind and corrupt , yours or ours , and as to thy slighting the dictates of conscience , which work i.o. is not behinde thee in , flouting at what is dictated by the light of god in it , and by the light therein from it to men , as figment , fannaticism , enthusiasm , and such like dirty denominations , i need refer no further then too i.o. whose magnifications of the dictates of conscience otherwhiles may well serve to the contradiction and confutation of himself , and thee too , and stop both thy mouth and his own too , who ●ayes pag. . ● , , . of the conscience , and the voice of god therein , and the instinct of good and evil , and self-judgement god hath placed , and indeleably planted therein , it declares it self to be from god by its own light and authority , there is no need to convince a man by substantial witnesses , that what his conscience speaks it speaks from god , whether it bear testimony to the righteousness of god , or that obedience which is eternally and indispensably due to him ; it shews the work of the law written in the heart , and discovers its author in whole name it speaks , and much more to the like purpose ; so that he , and thou too , may with shame enough reflect upon your ignorant vilifications of it . as for our obedience to the letter , we are by the spirit so bound to that , not so far only as we are willing , as thou belie●t us , but in a cross to our own wills , that while we walk in the spirit , which is our rule , we cannot disobey the letter , but fulfill it , while your selves , who prate of your being bound to obey it , walk at large after your own wills and lusts in the liberty of your flesh and through your boundless boasting of that , ye as boundlesly break , do dishonour both god and your selves . as for our going about to deceive the simple , we deny all deceivers and deceit , teaching no other doctrine nor gospel then what paul delivered , then which whoever it is that brings or broaches another , whether it be we , who are hated as devils , or you , who are honoured as angels of light from heaven by such as dwell in the depths and darkness of hell ; i say with paul , let him be accursed ; but those are now marked and manifested plainly enough who cause the divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine the saints learned of old , & by the children of the day are avoided also ; for they that are such serve not the lord iesus christ but their own bellies and yet by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple , rom. . , . what t.d. sayes in his second pamph. as to this question of the scriptures being a rule , is no new thing , but a reference of men for an answer to g. whiteheads queries ( which he was shye of saying much to , seeing he had not much to say ) to his old trite , trivial toy entituled the qua. folly , the very book that g. whitehead had routed before ; and so dry is t.d. pumped that most of his two butter-flyes excepting the wings it flyes with i. e. his epistle and his narrative , consists of repetitions of what he had uttered in the other , that was routed , and new references of his reader to that old one , notwithstanding so much is added to to this head in p. . of his second pamph. as more fully gives us the cause we contend for against him , viz. that the truth , doctrine , matter , and not the scripture , text , or letter is the rule to men ; i must [ quoth he ] again refer the reader for an answer to these queries ( meaning g.ws. ) to qua. folly ( in which yet none of them are answered ) and i adde , the matter contained in the scriptures is a rule to all men [ so far as t is revealed to them ] and was so before it was put into writing ; and so much of it as is written upon the hearts of heathens is a rule to them . rep. minde reader how t.d. yeelds the question to the qua. again in his late last lazy labours , which question between the qua and the priests is not about the holy doctrine , truth and matter ( for the qua. still own that to be as to the substantials , before which the shadowy figurative part thereof flyes away , everlastingly the same , an inalterable , fixt , firm , inward , spiritual , word and light , which neither doth , not can ever perish , corrupt , or pass away ) but about the outward scripture , writing , text , or letter , which uno ore with one voice all our priests and people vote to be the rule , touchstone , word , &c. which we deny , which matter notwithstanding when it comes to the point of proof before people , they dare denominate only to be the only rule and word , denying those high titles to the naked letter as well as we ; crying out with a dreadful ditty against the qua. in their pulpits , as deniers of the scriptures , the bible to be the word of god , the rule , &c. and when we enter the lifts with them , then finding themselves unable to carry it against us , falling down before us in confessions to us that it is the divine truth and matter only contained in the scripture which is the rule to all men so far as it , that is , that truth and matter is revealed to them ( as it is here confessed also by t.d. to be to the very heathen in their hearts that have no scripture ) and was so before it was put into writing , that is , before the scripture was , which seeing it is so confest , in the same way as i argued above about the foundation against i.o. so may i here against t.d. and him both about the rule , viz. arg. . the rule must be something that is in being before the faith and life that is to be regulated by it . . must be that the scripture testifies to be the rule . . something that is firm , fixt , sure , stable , inflexible , infallible , inalterable , else all the work wrought by a lesbian rule , a soft waxen measure , may be , ad infinitum , crooked , scanty , erroneous , disorderly in all dimensions at mens pleasure , who may [ as our priests mostly do transcribe , translate , expound , rectifie the scripture according to their crooked conceits , and their ( antichristian ) analogy of faith ( as they use to speak ) and not their crooked conceits , and false faith according to the true theology , that is plain to godly honest hearted men in the s●ripture ] wrest their rule to their own wills , self-ends , interests , and where it likes not their unruly selves to be ruled by it , run from it , or rather rule over ir as they list . but the light and spirit , and truth , and living word , and holy doctrine , was in being before the faith and life of any man. . is testified by the scripture [ at is above shewed ] to be the rule . is inalserable , firm , &c. and the scripture it self is already proved , and is yet more to be proved not to be so , therefore the light , truth , &c. not the scripture , text &c. is the rule . be sides what ioh. tombs and rich. ●axter , who must here be wrapt with their own weapon , argue falsely against the lights being the rule , i may truly argue against the letters being it . for page . of their book , entituled , the true old light. thus they dispute , viz. that which is variable and alterable cannot be a persons rule , for its the property of a rule to be invariable and the same at all times . the rules , measures and weights and dialls and squares , and what other things are made if they be varied they cease to be rules , for rules should be fixed and certain . but there is nothing more variable then mens light in them ( say they falsely ) but [ say i truly ] then a letter or writing without ; that which is to day , say they , taken for light , is to morrow judged to be darkness , and that light which is this day in a person , may be lessened to morrow ; a person may become fanatick and dote , who yesterday was heard with applause , therefore each persons light cannot be his rule , so us that at all times he should be bid to look to it , as a safe guide , as the qua. do . and , say i , that which is to day transcribed , translated , interpreted so , and in such a sense by some , may be through mis-transcription , mis-translation , mis-interpretation , be wrested as a nose of wax to morrow by others into a clear contrary sense , by transposition of hebrew letters , which in shape and sound are alike , either in way of mistake among the most careful scribes in the world , or at the m●er will and pleasure of criticks , who ad libitum may turn the text into twenty senses one after another , as seems good to them , witness i.o. himself , who [ as is elswhere shewed ] in many pages together of his epistle dedicatory tells how easie it is so to do , yea to turn that one word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the different pointing of it into sundry senses , some whereof are clear contrary to ; each other ; yea it is but doing so , or so saith he , and as many various lections arise in the very original text as a man pleases to make . it being so then with the letter , that it is so variable and flexible , and contrariwise the light being fixt , firm , stable without variation , as it is ( for all their lying of it ) it 's eternally and unchangeably the same even yesterday , to day , and for ever , as christ is from whom it comes , one and the same in all ; the foundation and witness of god which stands sure , and keeps its place in the consciences of men let them go whether they will , testifying the same truth , as gods witness , in all men , that it doth in any m●n both de jure & defacto also , never consenting to any evil , but condemning it all in all men more or less . therefore , say i , in consutation of i o. t. d. i.to. and rich. baxter out of their own books , the light , word , and spirit of god within every one may and ought to be every mans rule , so as that at all times he should be bid to look to it , and follow it as a guide as the qua. do . but the text , or letter without ( however owned as it is by me above , to be useful and profitable for men of god that know how to use it ) cannot be the most perfect , stable standard , much less the only infallible rule and guide of mens faith and life as the blind guides say ( in words it is though ( in works ) they themseves live and walk besides it as much as any . again , if the scriptures be the rule , and not the light and spirit , then either there was no rule before the scripture , or else they who lived before the scripture had one rule , we another , and so consequently there are two rules for the one faith of the one holy church . but all these whimsies are most absurd , for then the one church hath tot regulus quot novas explicationes ejusdem veritaetis , as many rules as particular wayes of revelation of the truth . and t.d. said the truth was one , and that the matter was the rule before the writing was , and i.o. sayes , ex. . s. . vnicus est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divinus , the divine rule is but one , and so say i of the one general catholick church , or assembly of the first born from abel to this day , therefore the light , spirit , and not the scripture is the rule . as for i. os shallow shuffling off the lights being the rule , and sleight slinging at it , testaque , lutoque , with his muddy pellet in that section , * if every mans private light be the rule of obedience , then we have as many rules as men , but the divine rule is onely one and that only one , ( quoth he falsely elsewhere * is the scripture . rep. his minor , as is said above , serves our turn , and as for his major , its consequence is most false , if by the word private light he means every ones particular measure of light that shines from god into his conscience , for that doth not make tot regulas &c. so many men , so many rules ; for the light and spirit , which is the only rule , is one , and the self-same thing in all , distributed to every one ( as to degrees which never vary the nature of any thing ) severally as seems good to him : and this is but a piece of his own peevish private piece of prate , so often as he doth in his disputes , to term the light of god we testifie to , as one in all , though in different measures , lumen privatum , the private light , for its lumen publicum & commune , that one publick light , that comes and is communicated from god , and reproves sin in all men , and never did , nor doth consent to any iniquity , but condemns it in all men , and all men as found in sin , and were i.o. as well skilled in the scripture , as he is in the way of unskilful scribling for it , and would once learn of paul whom he often prates on , he would have learnt ere this time with him to stile the light in all the different measures of it attained to by men , to be but one rule , one thing still , and not to say that if every man minde the light in himself then so many men so many rules , which apostle , phil. , . saith , whereunto we have already attained , let us walk by the same rule , let us minde the same thing . and as to t.ds. saying , that so much of the matter contained in the scripture as is written upon the hearts of the heatbens is a rule to them , i very readily grant that to be the very truth ; but what will t.d. get by it , but . the glory of his granting to the qua. that other grand question , about which he quarrels with them , viz ▪ the being of a measure of the same matter , and not na●●ral , as man is in statu corrupto , but supernatural and spiritual light of truth , which is contained and testified in the scripture to be in all men in the world , even in the heathen that have not the scripture . . the fuller just censure of a contradicter of himself , who by telling the truth herein , gainsayes that false doctrine which he teaches for truth in another place . for here he owns some of the same truth or holy doctrine declared in the scripture which himself , and i.o. stickle to prove it against such as deny it not ( for the truth is so though the text is not ) that every tittle and apex thereof is as equally divine , or supernatural , and entirely given by god himself , and as immediately as the very voice wherewith he spake to , and in the prophets . see i.o. p. . . and properly the word of god , . and the gospel and a supernatural and spiritual light , and such like . see i.o. p. . and t.d. p. , . of . pamph. and p. . of his . pamph. ) i say here t.d. owns some of that same matter , light , truth , law or gospel , the letter declares to be written upon the hearts of the heathens , that never had the letter , and to be the rule from god to them . but when we affirm as the scripture doth , and t.d. too , that every man in the world is enlightned by christ the true light , joh. . with some measure of that light the letter speaks of , and hath some of that holy , divine , supernatural , spiritual truth , doctrine , and evangelical matter , which the whole scripture either more obscurely , or more clearly declares , then he denies it , asserting the gentiles or heathens to have none of those judgements that god gave to israel ; and as t.d. to the contradiction of himself ; so i o : christus nullâ sub consideratione lumen salutare omnibus & stngulis hominibus du sit , ex. . s. . christ hath in no kind vouchsafed saving light to all and every man. one ignorant untrue assertion more of t.d. while my eye is on it i may not here let pass without notifying it to the reader , and then for ought i see , i may leave t.d. as to his talk of the scriptures being in the nature , or office , or authority of a rule , and see what i.o. sayes as to this . t.d. sayes p. . of his . pamph. suppose we had the signs recorded that are not written , yet were they not our rule , yet confesses that were they written they might be useful being done for the very same end with those lest us . g. w. telling him he contradicts himself in so saying , t.d. answers , he is not sensible of any contradiction herein , but of subordination only between the efficient and instrumental cause ; that the second creation doth not exclude , though the first did , instruments or second causes , instancing iam. . . of his own will begat he us by the word of truth : and rom. . . faith comes by hearing , and hearing by the word of god. rep. to which say i t.d. is not so little sensible of the contradiction g.w. charges him with , as every understanding reader may be greatly sensible of the flat falshood , that is told for truth in this latter clause , wherein he asserts the first creation did exclude second causes or instruments , though the second doth not , whereas if t.d. had not been in a dream , he would have seen that the first creation is so far from excluding instruments or second causes , if that be an instrument or second cause , which himself instances to be one in the second creation , viz. the word of god ; for as the scripture sayes that the saints are begotten to god and faith by the word of god , so it sayes but that our scriblers for the scriptures are little skill'd in it , and so study it in their dark minds till they cannot see what , who is not blinde cannot easily over-look ) heb. . . pet. . . . by faith we understand , in plurali , the worlds were framed by the word of god , and that by the word of god , the heavens and earth were of old , and the heavens and earth that now are by the same word are kept in store and reserved to fire against the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men . you had need be ashamed to pretend to be such appearers in publick pro scripturis that appear so much in your testimony so flatly against them as ye do . now as to j. os. prosecution of the proof of this matter , which he so often over and over again avouches as a truth with divine faith to be imbraced on pain and peril of eternal ruine and damnation , viz that the scriptures are in the authority of , the only and perfect rule and canon since the compleating of which no inward light or spirit , or new revelations about the faith and divine worship of the saints are either to be expected or admitted , it lyes more in the negative , then the positive , or affirmative , consisting for more largely of disproofs ( such as they are ) of any inward light , spirit , or spiritual revelation to be at all , then of proofs of the letter or scripture ( yet some pedling ones are puzled out to such a purpose ) to be altogether and alone the rule of faith , holy life , and divine worship . he professes to prove the inward spirit or light , the qua. plead for not to be the rule , and that the scripture or letter is so , two wayes , first , authoritative , or by the scripture it self . . rationative , or by a rational way of argumentation : but though i own the authority and veracity of the scripture , so far that if i.o. could produce any place of the bible , as he pretends to do many , wherein the scriptures do ascribe to themselves the honor , authority and title of the onely perfect rule either in terminis , or by any such due deduction , as is not more duely deniable , then so much as probale to a prudent man indeed , i should truly submit to one such testimony , being perswaded that the scriptures are writings of truth , where not altered , and not adulterated by mens mistakings , and mistranscribings , yet the scriptures being wrested besides all sense and reason by j.o. and the theologians he adhears to , to that end , i deny his proofs to be either athoratative or rational . the testimonies he urges the authority of , to prove the text to be in the authority of the only rule he casts into four classes ; the first sort of which consist of such places as expresse ( as he sayes ) and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vel per immediatam cousequentiam perfectionem hanc scripturis ascribunt , do expresly & verbatim , or else by immediate consequence ascribe such a perfection as of the only rule to the scriptures . the second such as expresly reject all additions to the text and word of god whatever . the third such as contain the examples of christ and the apostles trying and commanding to try all things by the scriptures . the fourth such as commend the holy scriptures to all religious uses . of the first sort he impannels eleven in all ▪ not being able it seems to pick out a whole jury to serve his turn , howbeit i acknowledge these , if they would as freely , as he forcibly would have them , pass their verdict for him , to be enough , being all of them good and true witnesses in another case then he calls them for , they stand all together in ex. . s. . viz. joh. . ult . tim. , , , . psal. . . luke . , . luke . . act. . . rom. , . eph. . , . pet. . . cor. . gal. . of the second seven , viz. deut. . . . . rev. . gal. . . mat. . . cor. . . isa. s. . of the third four , viz. luke . , , act . . . act. . . . act. . . with intimation of very many more commonly cited as he saith to that purpose . of the fourth , seven , viz. joh. . . deut . . luke . joh. . . rom. . . phil. . . joh. . . it may do well to take some notice of them at least and hear their evidence . i shall draw them up into the form of an argument , and then we shall see what expressnes in them , or immediate consequence there is from them to the scriptures being the only rule . arg. john sayes jesus did more signs then are written in his book or history of him , but what he wrote was that men might beleeve that jesus is the son of god , and beleeving might have life through his name . david , that the law of god is perfect , converting the soul , the testimony of the lord is sure making wise the simple , the statutes of the lord pure , enlightning the eyes . luke , that it seemed good to him also , seeing some others had taken in hand such a worke , having had perfect understanding from the first of the things iesus did and taught , to write an orderly declaration thereof to theopilus ( whether a particular person so called , or any lover of god who can tell ? for so is the name by interpretation ) that he might know the certainty of the things wherein he [ by which it seems rather to have been some eminent man ] had been before in part informed ; and christ said , men must hear moses and the prophets , or else will not be perswaded to repent , if one rise to them from the dead . peter , that the saints have a more sure word of prophesie to which they do well that they take heed , as to a light that shineth in a dark place till the day dawn , and the day star arise in their hearts . paul to the romans , that faith comes by hearing , and hearing by the word of god to the corinthians , that the minds of the jews were blinded , for until this day the vail remaineth on their hearts untaken away in the reading of the old testament , which vail is taken away in christ. to the galathians , that as many as walk according to this rule , * peace shall be on them , and gods israel . to timothy , that evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse , deceiving and being deceived , willing him to continue in the things he had learned and been assured of knowing of whom he had learnt them , and that from a childe he had known the holy scriptures , which were able to make him wise unto salvation through faith which is in christ iesut , that all scripture is given by inspiration of god , and is profitable for doctrine , reproof , correction , iastruction in righteousness , that the man of god might be perfect throughly furnished to all good works . to the ephesians , that they were no more strangers and forrainer● , but fellow-citizens with the saints , and of the houshold of god , and built upon the foundation of the prophets and apostles , jesus christ being the chief corner stone . god forbids to adde to his word , he commandeth and threatens to adde plagues to them that so do . paul sayes , let him be accu●sed who ever brings another gospel then that he had preached to the galathians , though the apostles themselves , or an angel from heaven . christ asked the pharisees , why they made gods commands void by their traditions . paul sayes , he in a figure transferred to himself , and to apollo the things that he had wrote to corinth , that none of them might think of either of them above that which he wrote of them as meerly ministers , by whom they beleeved , and not be as they were very apt to be pu●t up for one of them against the other , and glorying in man. god bids seek not to wizzards that peep and mutier but to himself , his law and testimony . the berean searched the scriptures daily whether the things were so or no the apostles preached . apollos was mighty in the scriptures , and as mightily confounded the jews , proving thereby that jesus was christ. paul said no other things then what moses and the prophets said should come . john baptist came for a witness to bear witness of the light , that all through him might beleeve . god sayes , if the israelites observe not all the words of the law written in that book of deuteronomy , he would make their plagues wonderful . christ expounds to his disciples all the scriptures in moses and the prophets concerning himself , bids , search the scriptures as testifying of him . paul sayes , whatsoever was written afore time was for our learning , that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope . he says , to write the same things to the church is safe . john sayes he writes his epistles to the saints that their joy might be full . therefore the outward letter of the scripture is the onely rule of all faith , and divine worship , and not the light and spirit of christ ye only call to , nor any internal revelation whatsoever , ficta vel facta . in which of all these scriptures the title and authority of the only most perfect standing rule of faith , life , and worship , is either expresly , or by any true , mediate , much more any immediate consequence ascribed to the scriptures who can finde but he 's that not blinde ? there is but one of all the places , viz. gal. . . where that term rule is at all expressed , by which as i have said and shewed above , is not at all intended the scriptures , but christ the light , and his spirit ; and some of them mention expresly neither the term scripture , nor rule , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and such as have in them terms equivalent to that of the rule , neither express nor imply at all the letter of the scripture , as that of psal. . , . and that of isa. . , . and that of rom. , . and that of eph. . , . where by the law , and commandment , and testimony , and statutes of the lord , rejoicing the heart , converting the soul , enlightening the eyes , making wise the simple , is expressed the lamp and the light , prov. . . and by the word , in the hearing of which faith comes , the word hid in the heart , nigh in the heart and mouth to hear and do , psal. . . deut. . . . rom. . . the law in the heart , isa. . . psal. . . the law in the mind , which the law of sin and death in the members wars against , rom. . . the law of the spirit of life which is in christ the life and light , whose life is the light of men , that made paul free from the other , rom. . . which light shines in the darknesse that is in our very doctors hearts , but the darkness comprehends it not . the statutes of god , and judgements to be put into the minds of men , according to the tenour of the new covenant , typified by the old , where the statutes were with pen and ink written , and engraven on tables of stone ; and by the foundation of the prophets and apostles , eph. . christ the light ( as is above declared ) and not the writing , and letter , and text , in which the internal truth is but ad extra declared ; and by that sure word of prophesie ' , pet. . not the scripture , but somewhat within , as i shall shew more abundantly by and by ; and by moses and the prophets , luke . writings within , as i shall shew anon : all which were , and were the onely perfect , pure , right , inalterable , standing rule , long before any external text or letter was , and have not ceased so to be by the coming in of the outward writing , with which they are since clothed upon , nor yet have surrendered their ancient authority of being the onely rule by which all speakings , and writings , and doctrines are to be tryed ; nor resigned up that their right to the writing , that testifies to their suprrmacy , veracity , and dignity above it self to this very day . nor have they submitted themselves , that were once the chief judge and rule for the tryal of truth , to be now tryed , ruled over , judged , sentenced , and ultimately determined , authoritatively to be received or rejected as true or false , of god , or the devil , divine or diabolical delusion , enthusiasme , figment , fanaticism , and what nick-name men lift to stile them by in their learned lusts , by the fallible transcriptions , translations , and expositions of miserably mistaking men , in which ways only and meerly , some of that scripture that was of old written by holy men , as the spirit moved them , is transmitted downward to these modern ages . and as for those texts that do make express mention of the scriptures and outward writings of the apostles , and of moses and the prophets , and the old testament , as iohn . ult . luke . , . . . acts . . cor. . . tim. . , , . do , there is not the least considerable , much less any cogent , necessary , or immediate consequence in any of them , to conclude the outward letter of the scriptures to be the onely , most perfect standing rule , touchstone for all truth to be tryed by , so exclusively ( as i.o. states them ) spiritus verbi luminis cujuscunque tandem generis interni , revelatienis , &c. of all inward spirit , light , word , or revelation of what sort soever ; for what 's the vail's being over the iews hearts in the reading of the old testament , which vail is done away in turning to christ the light , to evince any such matter ? doth it not rather evidence the very contrary ? for if the old testament , which is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the letter written with ink or pen , or engraven on stones , is as a vail over the hearts of such as read it as the iews do , of whom i.o. sayes , pag. . they read it without the administration of the spirit , so that its a dead letter , of no efficacy for the good of souls . which ▪ vail is to be , and is done away no otherwise then in christ the light , and by turning to the lord that spirit , ( as paul sayes it is ) then doth it not rather appear that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the letter written and engraven outwardly is not the onely most proper standing rule ; but christ's light , the spirit , and the measure , and manifestation thereof within , given to every man to profit withal ? and what though paul to timothy doth commend the inspired scripture , ( if yet we shall take that for the outward writing ) as profitable to make the man of god , who onely knows how to use it wisely , more and more wise , and to furnish him perfectly to exhort , &c. and every good work , against the gainsayers ? as i have shewed above that i deny not the outward scripture so to be to such a one : and what though christ saies in order to escaping the place of torment , let men hear moses and the prophets , if yet we shall take moses and the prophets for their outward writings ? and what though john sayes christ did more then he wrote of him , ( as well he might ; for matthew , mark , and luke wrote many things that he did not , and others wrote other matters , that were written by none of these ) what though he doth write that his writings were that the saints might believe that christ was the son of god , and believing might live through his name , and that their joy might be full ; i.e. that encrease might be to them of faith and joy : see joh. . . does their being useful and profitable , and penn'd for the same common end , as the light is given for in the conscience , conclude them by such an immediate consequence as j.o. conceives , to be design'd and appointed by god to be canoniz'd and established into the onely canon , into the sole standing rule and standard for all things of faith , manners and worship to be tryed by : so that nothing can or may safely be believed , done or practised in obedience to god , or acceptable to him , without particular and expresse recourse first had unto the scriptures ? if this be good and immediate consequence of j.o. viz. the scriptures and letter hath the same common end with the spirit and light ; and is useful and profitable , comfortable and serviceable , as the other is , though not so much . therefore the scripture or letter , is the onely most perfect , standing-rule universally for all truth to be tryed by , the onely canon for men to come to , whereby to be rectified in faith , life , worship , and all obedience . then at least must t.d. j. o's . joint antagonist against the qua. and the truth be judg'd a meer jugling disputant , and shufling sophister , if he own it as any other then a non sequittar , [ unless he will rather chuse to join with me here against j. o. in denying of this consequence , and against himself too , as to his asserting the scripture to be the rule ] for as much as when 't was urged against him in the same kind , at the dispute ( but in a way of much more necessary consequence , then j. o's . crooked conclusion comes in by ) to the defect of scripture-canon , as they call it , in its integrals , on this wise : if there were other inspired scriptures that are not bound up in your bibles , as useful and profitable , and written to the same end with those you have , then they were as much a rule as those ye have . but there were , &c. in proof of which minor instance was given in the first epistle to the corinthians , mentioned in the first we have , cor. . . . where paul sayes , i wrote unto you in an epistle , not to keep company with fornicators , &c. and now have i written to you not to keep company , &c. by which it seems both epistles , one of which is not in the now bible , were written by the same apostle , to one and the same end . t.d. replyes to this effect , see p. , . of his first pamph. i deny your consequence . sermons , religious discourses have the same common end with the written scriptures , yet the letter onely are our standing rule . and p. . all that was written by holy men , and preserved for our use , is not therefore our standing rule . and two bald reasons is rendred in the same page , viz. because god intended these that are bound up in our bibles , but not the rest , neither such as are lost ; for had he intended those so lost , poovidence would have watcht over them as over the rest ; nor such as are by his providence preserved neither , if not in our bibles . and pag. . of t. d's . second pamph. suppose ( quoth he ) we had the signs faithfully recorded , ( i. e. in our bible where they are wanting ) yet were they not our rule because god did not give order for them ? he hath assured us as much as is sufficient to create and encrease faith. and pag. . if you say ( as you seem to do ) if they all were done to the same end , then being written , they must reach the same end . i deny your consequence , [ quoth he ] the difference lyes in god's arbitrary dispensation . now if t.d. deny the consequence of the qua. which is two fold clearer , and more cogent then i. o's . when they say all scriptures written by inspiration , and preserved for our use to this day , are a rule to us as much as any of them are , whether bound up , or not bound up by stationers in our bibles . then how much more must he side with me in denying j. o's far fetch 't consequence , though j.o. calls it immediate , [ unlesse he will be denied justly for a daubing deceiver ) when j.o. argues thus , viz. the scriptures are useful , profitable , and written to the same good ends and purposes , as the light , spirit , and word of god ; therefore the scriptures , the letter , and not the inward light , spirit , word , or any internal revelation at all , are the only most perfect , standing rule of all things , in matter of faith , life , doctrine , worship , &c. but i have reason to suspect and fear , that night-birds of a feather , however they clash and thwart one another , and fall out among themselves in the dark , yet will fall in , flock , and flye all together in the face of the light , rather then seem to side therewith against each other , and that by some sillycome-senceless secundum quid or other , they 'l seem to qualifie their more then seeming confusions if they can . nevertheless , let them agree as they please , i may safely make bold before all , but partial , prejudiced persons , to deny j. o's . consequence , and put my self under t. d's patronage in so doing , who denyes the same , ( save onely that its much more sound and cogent when used to him ward by the qua. and indeed so it fares and falls out with my two antagonists , i.o. and t.d. that though they join to carry on the same cause against the qu. improving their wits to-patch up what proofs they can in the points wherein they oppose them ; yet their witnesses agree so little with each other , and within themselves , that what either of them asserts , is for the most part overturned , if not by the individual party so asserting , as it often is , yet at least by the other of them , one where or other , in such wise , that had some wiser man then my self had the management of this matter and work against them , that is now under my hands , i see so much [ though minding matter more then method , i am carryed to the confutation of them into sundry other wayes of partly positive , and partly polemical discourse intermingled among my animadversio●s , examinations , and comparings of their sayings ] that he need go no further then t.d. and i.o. to fetch matter wherewith to con●ute i.o. and no further then j.o. and t.d. to confute t.d. i conclude then my reply to the routing of the first rank , and cashiering the first classe ▪ of j. o's . scriptures , urged in proof of the scriptures being the only , most perfect , standing rule , and it may serve for an answer to t.d. himself too , in t. d's . words to me ( mutatis muta●dis ) p. . pamph. to make the business short , suppose we grant the scripture to be divinely inspired , to be very useful and profitable , as we do , and to be written for the ends above specified in the scriptures mentioned ; yet will it not follow that it was intended for the rule to the church , much less the only perfect rule , or standard of faith and life , because god did not give order for ●s so to be , but assured her , before the scripture was at all , as much as god thought sufficient to create and preserve faith in the gospel she had , before she had it written in an outward letter , viz. the inward light , word , and spirit , that was in the beginning , from which the letter came . and p. . to make a rule [ much more then , the only s●anding rule exclusively of all other , of all internal light , word , spirit , revelation , as jo. and t.d. both hold the scripture to be ] is necessary gods appointment of a writing to that end ; to which he did ( and even in the scripture it appears ) appoint the spirit , and inward light and word , as i shew'd above , but never at all appointed the scripture it self . and p. , . of t. d's . d. pam. the difference lyes in god's arbitrary dispensation , who from of old disposed the light , word and spirit alone , to be the rule , without , and before the letter , as being far more excellent , and fully sufficient without it , as to the nature and being of a rule ; but never ordered , intended , designed , appointed , or established the writing alone as the rule , as my two vniversity antagonists dispute , without , and c●●lusively of the other . and as for the third and fourth classis of j. o's scriptures , which seeing they are so near a kin to these of the first , therefore i shall consider them here before those of the second they are of the same kind , so that the same general answer might satisfie sapienti , cui verbum sat ; but seeing such stress is put on them by j.o. to the stablishing of a wrong standard , which i● of so great concernment to be stated right , or else all the building faulters ; i am free to insist a little more particularly on them then else i need to do . they contain ( as thou sayest j.o. ) commendations of the scriptures , as to all uses of religion , both by the practises and precepts of christ and the apostles , searching and expounding , proving and trying all things by them themselves , and also commending , and commanding the searching of them , and the trying of all things by them , in and among all others . rep. that all the places enumerated by thee , do contain any such matter at all , i utterly deny ; for some of those thou citest , as well as sundry of those afore spoken to , neither expresly , nor intentionally relate to the writing or scripture , but onely to the word of god , and the things , and truth , and commands of god written of onely in the letter ; which things in what text soever thou find'st them talkt of , thou present'y run'st blundering on in thy wonted blindness , which discerns no difference between the writing and things written , interpreting them without more ado of the scripture , as namely , deut. . . whereby the words written in that book , is not meant the writings , but the commandmen● therein rehearsed , the ceremonials and morals of which they were to observe before that booke of deuteronomy was penn'd ; which is a story of moses his repetition by word of mouth , a little before his death , of such things as he had from the lord enjoined them to observe ; and some of them god also from his own mouth well-nigh forty years at least before that was penned . also that in acts. . . where paul sayes he witness●d no other things or truths ( as to the substance and matter of them though the manner was different , the one testifying , de christo exhibendo , the other exhibito ; one saying they should come , t'other they were come ) then what the prophets and moses said should come : which things paul could now witness were come , if he had not seen their witness that they should : and what mention is there of the scripture at all in that scripture ? also john . . where it s said of john baptist , he was not that light , but came to bear witness of that light which john baptist wrote no scripture at all that i know of , which light he testified to , was not the letter or scripture , but the same the qua. bear witness to even that measure of its light within , wherewith he inlightneth every man that comes into the world ; so that there is no scripture mentioned , or so much as meant in that scripture . wherever thou seest in thy concordance the word scripture written of in the scripture , thou art ready to think straightway it concu●r'● , and hath no ●m●l concordance with thy cause , and where thou findest the words rule , foundation , law , and prophets of god , light , word , commands , statutes , testimony , prophesie , and such like , thou as rashly and rawly imaginest the scripture or meer outward writing meant and mentioned by them in what ever is predicated of them , and that it makes something for thy b●inde business of the scriptures being the only standing rule and foundation . but alas hoc aliquid verè nihil est , this something is plainly nothing at all to that purpose , for as it makes not a mice toward the proof thereof ( as appears above ) because the scriptures were written for good ends , and are prefi●●bl● to such and such good uses , unless god had canonized them as a rule , so neither doth it that christ expounded the scriptures , and that some did search them , and were mightily read in them ( as some are at this day who are supposed to deny them ) to the confounding the scribes that searched them daily , and therein lookt for life as their only rule , but never came to him that they might have life , who was the life and light they came from but never heard him whom they testified of , that his voice was now to be heard , in whom god who under the law before his coming spake in his servants the prophets , speaks under the gospel , as by his only son. 't is true , abraham , who lived long after moses , and those prophets , whose writings ye have , were born , in that parable which illustrates a precious truth , that as to the mystery of it lyes yet hid from thee , is brought in by christ , as saying of the rich mans brethren by way of prevention of their coming into torment , they have moses and the prophets let them hear them , if not they 'l not be perswaded by a miraculous message of one to them from the dead : but what i● this to prove what thou here alledgest it for , and more largely inferrest from it , p. , , , , . where thou preachest on that text a sermon as long as little to thy purpose , improving it and that of pet. . . to the utmost , to prove moses and the prophets writings to be the best and most effectual means of bringing men to repentance , on which that , and all faith is immediately to be grounded , and to prove the scriptures to be that alone , which we are sent to , to be more effectual and sure then either the greatest miracle that ever was , or immediate voice that ever god himself spake by from heaven , and to be the sole rule and determiner of all doctrines whether they be truths , or but cunningly devised fables , which two texts , together with isa. . . how little they evince any such matter , and what is meant in them by moses and the prophets , and by that sure world of prophesie , which thou and thy fellows foolishly affirm to be the scriptures i shall , god willing , take occasion to examine anon . three of thy main inartificial arguments ( as thou truly callest them , p. , , , . ) or testimonies to thy untruth , being by the head and shoulders without either sense or reason wrested from them . again it is true the bereans did search the scriptures whether the things were so as the apostles spake , who spake nothing but summarily & substantially the same which moses and the prophets did say should come ; but what though they did so of their own accord , and their searching was succesful and useful also to the fortifying of the faith they had in the world of truth , which they received readily not as the word of man , but of god , not as fables , but as truth , it coming to them as to the thessalonians , not in word only , but in power , and the holy spirit , and in much assurance , thes. . . must it needs follow therefore that the scriptures were their only rule of determining the doctrines whether they were truths or fables , the word of god , or the word of man , and that their faith and owning that truth was à priori , first , originally and immediately founded ( as thou preachest all faith and repentance must be , page . . on the scriptures ; so that if they had not first searched the scriptures , and there found a congruity of the things with the old writing , they neither would nor could have beleeved or received the truth ? thus thou and most of thy faternity , foolishly fancy , but look again and ye will finde it far otherwise , for howbeit they searched the scriptures , and did commendably and nobly therein , and were commended as more noble in that then they of thessalonica ( who yet are commended as noble , excellent , and exemplary as the other in receiving the word in much affliction , with joy , as gods , and not mans word , though , it seems , not so serious in searching the scriptures as these , thess. . , , , . ) and were not a little confirmed in their faith begotten before , yet they first received the word with all readiness of minde as hundreds do at ths day , as preacht to them by word of mouth , from the apostles , the witness of god being reached , and answering to the truth of it in their hearts , in which they were noble as thessalonica was , yet more noble by how much they were unwearied and uncessans in seeking to be more and more gradually , and groundedly growing in fuller assurance of the truth , as many are at this day , who first beleeving and receiving the word with joy and readiness , do not sleight ( as ye suppose ) but à posteriori being in the faith timothy more seriously and singly then your selves see into the scriptures , that being already brought into the things the scriptures write of , through patience and comfort thereof have hope , according to that other scripture of thy coating , rom. . . as yourselves cannot have any more then the scribes , who stand studying and sraping with your own animal understandings before ye are ceme to walk in the light and spirit they witness too , and came from . but what 's all this more then just nothing at all to prove the scripture to be the only standing rule of faith and life , which is asserted of it to the evincing it to be the word ? nay if your eyes were in your head , ye might see of your selves [ o ye studentall , more than truly prudential searchers of the scriptures ] that the word the apostles preached , and the scripture , which we confess truly testifies thereof , are two distinct things , and in no wise one and same individual as ye would make them , if ye look no farther then the present text in hand ; for in that he sayes they received the word with all readiness of minde , and searched the scriptvre whether the things were so ; it imports to any but the blind searchers of the scripture that the word they received was one thing and the scripture they searched about the truth of it was another . again it is true , and not to be denied , but apollo an eloquent iew was from his being well versed therein before he came to own the light , mighty in the scripture , and learned in the letter so as mightily to confound the gospel gain saying iews thereby , when once he came to obey it himself , though yet there was a tradesman and his wife further grounded in the gospel , and learned in the light , than himself , who was beyond them in the letter , of whom he was not ashamed [ as our vniversities literatists are at this day , to learn of women , that know more of gospel mysteries than they do ] to stoop to be instructed in the way of god more perfectly , but how little this proves the scripture to be the only standing rule , for which end , i.o. cites it , he that is blinde cannot see , but others cannot chuse , when as he that was so well skilled in the scripture [ had that been the only rule ] that he could have instructed aquila and priscilla about the letter , with which suo sejugulaus gladio , he slew the letter-learned iews , as it were with their own sword , was not so clear in his understanding of the truth , way , gospel , spirit , word , and light of god [ which is indeed the only standing inalterable rule for ever as it ever was ] but that he had need to be regulated and rectified therein by such as in meer scripture all knowledge were as inferiour , as they were superior to him in spiritual understanding . moreover what makes it to the proof of the scripture to be the only standing rule exclusively of the light and spirit , that paul sayes to write the same things to the philippians , by which its questionable whether he 〈…〉 something to them before , which is lost , and not bound up in your bibles , nor canoniz'd into your canon ) was safe for them ? as much as if he had said nothing at all ; for nothing at all is that to i. o's . purpose , nor yet that of iohn saying , these things i write unto you , that your joy may be full , which j o. cites to the same end . and true it is , christ expounded the scriptures to his disciples , as he did also his own parables that he uttered by word of mouth amongst them and the mixt multitude toge●her , and opened their understandings also ( as he does theirs that walk in his light that they might understand them ; but where is the immediate cogent consequence from hence , to the conscience of any , that the letter or scripture is the onely most perfect standing rule of all faith , truth , holy life , doctrine , divine worship , &c. as i.o. states it to be , and t.d. also exclusively of the internal light , word , spirit , &c. and what though we should grant you , that christ sayes to the scribes , search the scriptures ? well , he might , for they testifie of him as the life , whom they never came to for it , who if they had known either the scriptures aright they so search't in , and scribled about , or the power of god , they could not have erred from the knowledge of him in his light , as they did , matth. . . we say the same to you schollars , that think you study and know the scriptures more then any men , as christ to them , and as i.o. to all by way of command ( whereas some can't read it ) in his title-page , to flourish his frontispiece and vent his vindication , pro scripturis , more then ought else , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 search the scriptures , for they testifie of christ the light , the word , that spirit , way , life , truth we talk of , they send ye to the same light , and inward word in the heart , as the rule to walk by , as the qua. do , and as christ said of them , ioh. . , . having told them they needed no other to accuse them , then moses in whom they trusted ; had ye believed moses , ye would have believed me , for he wrote of me ; but if ye believe not his writings , how should ye believe my word ? so say i of you , ye need no other witness against you , though ye have another ( even the light within , which ye despise ) then the letter in which ye trust ; for did you believe the letter , ye would believe in the light , for it writes of the light the qua. call ye to , and write of ; but if ye believe not the writing ye so write for , how shall ye believe in the light ? howbeit when all 's done , as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being both the indicative and imperative mood will as well bear it , so the context doth much more clear it , that the verb is rather indicative of their doting doings ; then imperasive of their duty ; and is rather to be rendred , ye search , then search ye the scripture and contains rather matter of condemnation of them for that profitable deal of do they made in their busie minds about the outward scriptures , while in the mean time they heeded not gods own voice , nor regarded the inward words abiding in them , then either commendation of their great , fruitless pains that way , or commendation of the scripture to them to search , or commandment of them ( who were too mad already for the scripture , as their grand idol , receiving it as thou faist , p. . with the honour and veneration due to god , and his living word alone ) to search therein . yea verily , both that verse and those about it , do all consist of matter of sad complaint against them for their ever-reverencing the scripture , and negecting to receive , or rather refusing and rejecting the word of life it self to any single eye ; ye have , saith christ to them of the father , neither hear his voice at any time , nor seen his shepe , joh. . and . ye have not his word abiding in you , vers . . ye search the scriptures [ ye look there often ] for in them ye think ( but mistake your selves ) to have eternal life , and ( true enough ) they are they which testifie of me , as the way to life ; and ( yet ) ye will not come to me that ye might have the life . on this wise doth christ rather expostulate with them , for their ignorance and negligence of the word , then either command or commend any searchings of the scriptures . and as to the second classis of texts cited by the j.o. in proof of the scriptures , being the only standing rule , in which texts all additions whatsoever to the written word of god are expresly rejected : i answer , what though god doth reprove , condemn , threaten to plague and curse such as adde to his word , bring any other gospel then what paul preached , make void his commands by their traditions , enjoyn men to seek not to such as peep and mutter , but to the lord himself , & paul would not have the corinthians think of him and apollo above what he writes of himself and him , as men only by whom as means they beleeved , which is the summe of the seven scriptures by thee produced to that purpose ? what proof at all is there in all this such a way ? it is true enough there must be no adding to the word , gospel , commandement , testimony of god , or alterings , or varyings , or detractings therefrom in a tittle ; but is any of this intended of the outward writing , letter , or scripture which are not that word , gospel , commandement , but only declare this and other things concerning it ? is the scripture , that only set , firm , fixt , standing rule that may neither be augmented nor diminished on pain of plagues and cursing as ye say it is ? then tell me , . how much scripture or writing hath been added to the five books of moses since deut. . . . . was written , wherein it is said , ye shall not adde to the word i command you , neither shall you diminish from it ? and since that of prov. . was written , where it is said , adde thou not unto his word lest he reprove thee , and thou be found a liar : and since , isa. . . where it is said , to the law , and testimony : and since that gal. . , where it is said , let him be accursed that brings other then we have preacht , though we or an angel from heaven ? . whether were the prophets and apostles , that have added so many books since those prohibitions , justly reproveable and accursed as lyars ? . if ye say nay they were not lyars , nor to be reproved , nor accursed , then tell me as to the measure and bounds , and close of your canon , which ye suppose to be the revelation , why he that by the same spirit moving shall in writing reveal the same truths now , is accursed , reproved , plagued for adding to the word and gospel upon the account of johns saying , rev. . . if any man shall adde unto these things , god shall adde unto him the plagues that are written in this booke , any more then iohn himself who added his scripture and revelation after pauls epistle to the galathians , or paul who added his scriptures after isaiahs , or isaiah and the other prophets , who added theirs after solomon , or solomon that added his writings after ●●s●s hi● inhibition in deuteronomy ? . beleeve it that the scripture is not that thing , nor standing rule , to which no more must be added , and from which no new scripture may be diminished on pain of cursing and plagues , but the word , doctrine , gospel , commandement , law , truth told in it , to which cursed be he that addes another , or any new word , gospel , doctrines , &c. or detracts a tittle from that : and so john sayes , if any adde to these things , and take away from the words of this book , god shall adde plagues , and take away his part out of the book of life , and from the things written in this book , meaning that particular writing he was now in hand with , not if any man shall write any more scripture with so high a pretence as by revelation from the spirit , or loose , or shut out any of the scriptures , that are already written by inspiration , from the canon ; for if he had meant so , then as brisk as ye are to breath out threatnings and plagues , and curses to such as pretend to write any thing by inspiration , revelation , or motion from the holy spirit , since the dayes of the complearing and closing of your canon ( as you call it ) which you count from iohns writing his revelation ; though ye are far from adding any inspired scripture to the bible , but only such scripture as is the fruit , figment , and imagination of your own hearts , which thou confessest to be the fountain of all that other men that are not apostles ( as ye say ye are not do deliver p. . not daring to pretend to the infallible guidance of the infallible spirit in your ministry , yet yee 'l not scape the taking your names out of the book of life , and from the good things written in the revelation for your fault of taking away , detracting and diminishing from the scriptures , for ye exclude from your canon very much of that inspired scripture that was written , some of which is extant at this day too , or hath been shewed before . but considering the nature and true being of your guilt , i confess in this case of varying from the rule ( if that were the onely standing rule ) of the outward scripture , should be found to be much more in the ablative , than in the dative case . but of this more hereafter . these are j.os. inartificial arguments or testimonies of scripture used by him as mediums of artificial ones that may be drawn from thence , of which scriptures he affirms that they are as commonly cited , so already vindicated à nos●●i , theologis by our divines from exceptions of papists , and others , that hee need not insist any more on them to name them , of which say i , as he , communiter citantur , nonproprie , they are commonly , but not properly cited , but not yet vindicated from the exceptions of all . i shall now come to consider his more artificial arguments drawn ●rom some of these , and some other scriptures by the cart ropes of j.os. carnal reasonings in proof that the inward light , word , spirit , and its revelations are not at all , but the outward letter , text , writings , scriptures are only and altogether the standing rule to the church , and all men of all truthss , doctrines , and things , that are to be done , beleeved , tried , or determined in point of gods worship , and our obedience . j. o s. arg. . the first is on this wise , ex. . s. . si revelatio , &c. if the revelation of the will of god in the scripture be so perfect , compleat , and every way absolute that there is no need of any other revelation by the spirit and light within , enthusiasm , heavenly breathing * discsurses with angels fained , or true to instruct us in the knowledge of god , 〈…〉 in order ●o the attaining eternal life , then its plain that all those wayes and means of knowing god and his will , which the fanaticks fain to be the means thereof , are uncertain , dangerous , unprofitable , and in no wise necessary thereunto , and therefore to be rejected and detested . but it s so , &c. therefore , &c. rep. oh full of all fallacy , as well as falsity , folly , and blindness , in the things of god , of whom i may truly say ( et si non cas●etamen cause thou art not so little honest in it , but thou art well-nigh as much crafty to hide , what thou canst , the dishonesty of what thou holdest , not only from the qua. as thou thinkest in the latine language , but also from all that would handle thee for thy ill handy-work by thy dark discoursing in words of a double and doubtful reference and signification , that thou mayest the more privily pervert the right wayes of the lord , and prepagate thy perverse propositions the more securely to the prejudice of them , * what means else thy foisting in of that foolish phrase quae simulant fanatici , by the inserting whereof thou mayest either intend thus , viz. that all wayes that are fained by the qua. are unprofitable , unnecessary , and to be rejected and detested , and so creep thy neck out of the collar , and shelter thy self from that censure of falshood thou fore-sawest would else befall the minor ; for meer fained mediums of knowing god , and his will wherever found are to be rejected as useless , unnecessary , and no less then detestable indeed that is true enough , who doubts it ? but then withall how serpent-like wouldest thou hereby subtilly insinuate it into the younger sort , to whose use thou devotest this thy peece of dotage , under that vnive s●y vendible title of theological determinations , theses , or apologetical exercitations , pro s●ripturis , as if the qua. professed means were but a fained light and spirit , as if thou foughtest against nought but the qua. fictions , and not any true internal light , or spirit of god , or heavenly revelations , or inspirations , but only such meer imaginary , spiritual divine motions and notions as the qua. fain or falsely fancy so to be . whereas no figmentitions matters are found , formented , or sought for by the qua. to be the rule , but only the true revelations , light , and spirit of god himself within the heart . or else thou mayest intend thus as thy words express [ that forenamed clouding clause being excluded ] viz. that the scriptures alone make such an absolutely perfect revelation of gods will , that there is no need at all of any other revelation by the spirit and light of god within , which the qua. affirm to be useful and needful to instruct in the knowledge of god and his will to the attainment of life eternal , but those are uncertain , perillous , unnecessary means of knowing our duty , and so to be rejected and detested ; in which way understanding thy minde , there is so much the less fallacy indeed , but the more falsely , even so much as amounts to little less then great blasohemy and so thy minor is to be denied with a witness , ex duobus malis & absurdis hisie unum saltem est elegondum , utrum horum mavis accipe ; if the first which is fallacy and foolery , it s the least and the best , yet too bad , if the last which is falshood and blasphemy , it s so bad that its worse then nought , yet judging by thy undertaking to prove thy minor , which else were true and needing no proof , thou intendest the letter , which is the greater of the evils , i enter the lists with thee about that , and deny utterly thy minor , which thou proceedst in proof of by man , particular confiderations , viz. . of the author of the scriptures , namely , god from whom ( sayest thou ) nothing can come that is imperfect any way , much less in respect of that end to which he decrees any work - j.o. from a perfect voluntary cause , nothing but what is perfect is to be expected , for nothing could hinder god , being willing to reveal his will , from revealing it perfectly , but either because he could not , which is not consistent with his infinite wisdome and omnipotency , or because he would not , which in no wise agrees with his goodness and grace , therefore he hath given out a perfect revelation of his will. reply . this is the first medium whereby thou seem'st to thy self artificially to have proved the minor of thy first ar●eficial argument for the scriptures being such an onely , absolutely perfect rule and revelation of god and his will , that there 's now no need of any other way of revelation either of him or it ; but all else , whatsoever by his spirit and light within , as in order to the knowing of god , his will , and our duty to him , and our obtaining eternal life , beside the scriptures , are superfluous , uselesse , needlesse , unprofitable , fictitious , and to be rejected as such , with abhorrency and detestation . and this minor of thy prosyllogism , should haue been thy expresse conclusion in thy last argument ; instead whereof ( being likely ashamed to infer it in its proper terms , they are so fordid , fottish , false , foolish , blinde , brutish , beastly , blasphemous , grosly detestable , and abominable ) thou entailest a conclusion at the tail of it , which is not contradicted by any but aliud a negato , quite another thing then that which is denyed , yea even the same that we and all other men own , viz. that god hath given out a perfect revelation of his will : which who doubts of ? who denies but that god gives out his will certainly , sufficiently to all men ? but whether that revelation of his will be made to all men by a meer letter without , so certainly , perfectly , at this day , that in order to knowing and doing it by every man savingly , his light and spirit within is superfluous , needlesse , unnecessary , uncertain , and no less then fictitious and odious to assert needful , which is the lye thou labourest to defend ; or by his light , word , and spirit within , certainly and perfectly , sufficiently to every individual , in order to his doing his own duty , without an outward letter or writing ( as it was before any writing was , and is still where no such writing is , and no less so , where such writing is also , which is the truth the qua. maintain against thee ) this is the question between thee i.o. and the qua. which thou rovest and ramblest from , making premises , which pretend to have promises in them of proving thy absurd opinion , and then concluding at random that which i● nihil ad rhombum , just nothing at all to thy purpose , insomuch that as an old cardinal that had been long absent from rome , going once to the election of a pope , and seeing such shuffling , and patching , and and shifting , and canv●sing ' , and daubing doings in a business of such moment , as the choice of the infallible chair-man for the whole church , said no more but siccine eliguntur pontifices romani ? and so took his horse and rode away turning his back upon rome , resolving never to see it more ; so seeing how little logical the theological disputations of our vniversity doctors in divinity are , and what pinching and cutting , and curtailing , and serpentine twining and turning things upside down , and shifting and shuffling to shut out the plain truth , as held out to them by honest country qua. and to escape the force of the two edged sword of the spirit or word of god from wounding their hairy scalp , what moping and mincing and mangonizing there is among them , who having left off to walk by gods right rules cannot walk well , nor keep close to their own wrong rules neither , is it enough to make any well-meaning , honest-hearted , countrified schollars , that have long discontinued from the vniversities , ashamed and sorry , and sick to see such sorry doings at the nursing mothers , and to say siccine disputant academici nostrates ? do our modern doctors dispute thus at the vniversities ? surely wee 'l never look after them more , nor send our sons thither to learn logick or train them up there to know honestly and uprightly , and rightly how to reason , much less to make them ministers of the gospel . but to let the illegitimacy of the conclusion pass , and suppose it to have been expressed in its own due terms , let 's see how it will follow from those premises he infers it from that the letter without the light and spirit within ( memorandum still that he stiles those ( most blasphemously ) uncertain , perillous , unprofitable , and in no wise necessary means of knowing gods will , and our duty and of coming to life , and such as are to be rejected and detested as fictitious and counterfeit ) is the onely perfect rule of revelation of gods will any more then from the self same premises , it will follow contrarily to him that the light and spirit within , are the only perfect , certain , sufficient rule of revealing gods will without the letter or scripture without . surely had i.o. been magister avtis , his arts-master in this his arteficial argument , he would have left it out altogether , and not have urged it , as he doth to the prejudice of his cause , for it doth him ten times more detriment then advantage . for whereas it is generally concluded among you all , and by you two i.o. and t.d. my present antagonists in particular as much by any * ( thoug● yet you both vilifie the the said inward light what ye are able under the names of natural , obscure , darks , dim , low , and to salvation insufficient principles , and means of the revelation of his will * imagination , figment , nescio quid , nihil , meer dictates of our own conscience , blinde , and corrupt ) that god declares , and reveals himself , his soveraign power , authority , righteousness , holiness , good and evil , many sins and duties , and several divine attributes , and that indispensible moral obedience which he requireth of us as his creatures subject to his law , by some light from himself and principles of conscience , and his own voyce therein , and those motions that are inlaid by his own hand in mens mindes , and that they make a revelation of him as to the purposes mentioned , and shew the work of his own law written in mens hearts , and are able to plead their own divine original , and discover their author from whom they are , and in whose name they speak , even gods , without any other witnesses , further evidence , or reasoning without the advantage of any considerations , but what are by themselves supplied without the least contribution , or assistance from without . whereas i say all this is granted by you of the inward light we plead for to be a ●er●ain , profitable , perfect , sufficient rule of knowing god , and means of revealing of his will to us , and our duty to him in order to life without a letter , against you who plead the scripture and letter only to be so without the inner spirit and light ( to say nothing how in effect the cause is little less than wholly , or rather is wholly given us by t.d. and thy self too , in those many magnifications of the light within , as effectual without any thing but it self [ and therefore without the scripture without ] to reveal god and his will , and sins , and duties , and good and evil , and that moral obedience due from us to his moral law ) is not thy own argument for the propounded perfection of the scriptures as the only all-sufficient rule , ab earum authore , deo scilicet , à quo nihil imperfectum u●o modo , multò minus respectu finis cui opus quodcunque destinat procedere potest , as , yea far more cogent and conclusive to the inward light and spirits being the said only all-sufficent perfect rule , then to the outward letters being so ? and ●iththou settest thy self so preposterously to prove the said perfection of the only rule , as proper and peculiar to the letter , may i not much more properly take thy own words , and therewith ( ad hominem ) argue that the name of the only rule is the peculiar right and priviledge of the inward light and spirit ! as thou then sayest , jam vero perfectionem dictam scripturarum , &c. so tuo te jugulans gladio , say i , jam vero perfectionem , dictam lucis & spiritus interni probamus ab ●orum authore , deo scilicet , &c. the said perfection of the only rule , and way of revelation of his will , and our duty , as to life , as proper and peculiar to the inward light and spirit , and not the scripture , i prove from their author , viz. god from whom nothing imperfect in any way can come , much less in respect of that end , to which he hath designed any work . and if thou say , as thou doest , and i deny it not in a more remote sense , god is the author of the scripture , let me ask thee , is he not much more immediately the author of his light and spirit in the hearts of holy men , and of that measure thereof that is , and strives and shines in the hearts of all men from the greater degree of which in the prophets and apostles hearts all the other scripture ( except that little , exod. . and dan. . , , . ) came through their hands as subordinate authors , then he is of the letter which issued from him ( non nisi mediantibus manuscripteribus ) more mediately and no otherwise at first , but by means of men writing as moved , and at this day no more immediately then by the pens and presses of fallible men transcribing and printing , re-printing , translating , and copying them out of they know not what corrupted copies , not so near as at second or third , but perhaps at the hundreth hand from the first penman ? and seeing god is the sole immediate author of the light and spirit within , which is not alterable , flexible , &c. at the wills of criticks , as thou confessest the hebrew text is , and as he is not of the letter , which is both copied , canonized and authorized ( as ye have it ) by men only as the rule , i● it follow ( as secundum ye it doth , not me ) ab authore remoto from the remote author of it god , from whom nothing imperfect can come , that the letter is the only perfect rule and revelation of gods will , will it not much more forcibly follow from gods being the only and immediate author of the inner light and spirit , that they are the only sufficient rule , and make a perfect revelation of his will to the end and purposes aforesaid ? ob. and if thou say , true ; but those ends and purposes , for which the light and spirit within , the qua. talk of , though useful otherwise , are designed of god , and given to men , are not that they may be the rule and guide of our way in order unto life , but only that thereby we may the more savingly understand the letter , which is of god designed , decreed , and authorized to be the only rule , for so thou expresly saist of the spirit or light within , ex. . s. . which topsey-turvy ●or expediencies sake , i shall here take into consideration , that i may have no more to do with it again , where thy latine words , englished , are these , * j.o. of no inward light whatsoever , although it be saving , is this the use or end , that we should attend to it as the guide and rule of our way , but for this end alone is that vouchsafed of god , that by the help thereof , we may the more savingly understand that rule [ meaning the scripture ] and the minde of god revealed in it . reply . i answer , cujus contrarium verum est , this is as quite contrary a cob-castle with the heels upwards , and upside downwards , as t is well possible for a man to build , whereby thou makest as thou elsewhere doest in i know not how many places more the light and spirit but an instrumental means to bring men to the letter , that by the letter they may have life and be saved ; yea and sometimes the servile instrument of the letter it self , by which , as by some certain ministerial attorny , the letter authoritatively , as the cause , doth all the mighty and powerful things that are effected towards mans salvation ; as namely , p. . j. o. this light in the scripture for which wee contend . reply . but stay there yet a while too j.o. for the light in the scripture is that the quá . contend for against thee , who contendest for the letter [ if thou well understandest thy self ] against that light which is declared of in the letter as shining in the heart ; for the light in the scripture is one thing , of which what thou sayest is true , but the scripture , in which that light is declared and written of is another , as the beaming majesty , brightness , and glorious light of the sun , that shines through it , is one thing , and the glass window , in and through which it shines , is another , the light in the lanthorn one thing , and the lanthorn , in which it shines , is another , which light , that i● in the letter declared , is that we plead for , and j.o. against , & this j.o. wil see , when he looks over the second time with his eyes open , what with his eyes shut at first he overlookt : secundae cogitationes saepe meliores . j.o. this light in the scripture , is nothing but the beaming of the majesty , truth , holiness , and authority of god , by this it dives , i.e. the letter by the light dives into the consciences of men into all the recesses of their hearts , guides , teaches , directs , determines in themin the name , majesty and authority of god. rep. see how the light is made the letters messenger ; & subordinate agent ; for by here is not such a by , as is used when the inferior is said to act by the authority of the superior , but the superior by the subse●viency of the inferior . whereas indeed the letter is but the instrument of the light and spirit , whereby the light & spirit do supreamly and authoritatively , what ever they do by it at all , & can do without it even what sometimes they do with i● , since it is in being , and where it hath a being ; for the light , tries , searches , shines shews , reveals , judges , determines , as well without the letter as with it , and did dive into the heart , where the letter never was , and direct there before the external literal directory was all ; and yet uses a● its pleasure , the letter as its instrument , and as a knife to kill , which knife yet as an instrument cannot quicken , but the letter doth not enter quâ talis ) into the heart at all , and what ere it doth , it doth in subserviency to the light which is its author , whose instrument it is to use , but not the light its instrument at all . moreover the end of the letter is but to turn men from the darkness and power of satan , wherein they dwel , to the light within them , that shines in the darknes that is also within them , which light is the power of god , this act. . is said to be the end of pauls ministration , which was performed partly by writing , and partly by word of mouth , that so by beleeving in the light and living in it they might not abide in the darkness but have the light of life ; but the end of the light and spirit within is not to bring to the letter , by the letter we may have the life , for the searchers into the letter and lookers thereinto for the eternal life , which is christ , whom the letter testifies of , never found the life they lookt for there , because they heard not gods voice , nor cared for his word abiding in them , nor came to christ the light and spirit , that they might have the life , for the letter killeth , but the light and spirit gives the life , cor. . and howbeit i deny not the scripture to be perfect praesertim respectu finis , especially in relation to that end , as j o. sayes , for which it was decreed of god , yet that that end was to be the only guide and rule of men in their way to life i deny , asserting the light and spirit still as that which is designed and ordered of god as to that end , and was so from the beginning before any letter without was at all : and though i own the scripture still as useful , profitable , effectual , sufficient , and perfectly successful , where used by the man of god in the wisdome of god for the many excellent ends and uses formerly spoken to from , tim. . . as being written by inspiration of god , yet i still deny that to be , thereupon , the standing rule as the light and spirit is , because no where so denominated nor designed to be by god , in all the scripture as i have shewed suffi●iently above in answer to all the texts whence thou mistakest it so to be ; and because damnati lingua vocem habet , vim non habet , a hereticks words are never heeded . i must here make use again of t.d. to defeat i.o. who sayes , p. , . . of his first pamph. p. , . of his second . that all that was written by holy men and preserved for our use is not therefore our standing rule , because god did not intend them , nor give order for them to be so , and beside such inspiration and usefulness , to make a rule is necessary gods appointment of a writing to that end which appointment the letter never had from god what ever it had from men ) the difference lyes in gods arbi●rary dispensation , who assured his church what was sufficient as to her standing rule before the letter was , viz. his his light and spirit in which regard though we highly respect the letter yet we can look upon it , as p. . first pamph. t.d. sayes of some useful things of god with reference to othersome , no more with such regard as the only standing rule , as we do upon the other . and though with thee i.o. we assert and deny not , but that by the efficacy of the light and spirit the letter is more savingly understood , for the spirit well knows its own , yea by the light and spirit only is the letter understood and read to profit , and not by that twinckling twilight of thy fidling fancy , for that ignis fatuus finds little , as to the inside of the letter , but fuell to feed thee in fierce and fiery twittle twattles about the outside sense of it , and the truth of transcripts and translations , pidling points , tittles , & iota's ; yea who hath known the minde of the lord , or the things of the spirit declared in the letter but the spirit , and they that live after the light thereof , and no more after the flesh , to whom only the spirit only doth reveal them ? yet monstrum horrendum , cui lumen ademptum , what scriptureless , lightless , spiritless speeches are these of j.o. who depresses all inward light whatsoever , even that within , the living word of god within , so much below the meer letter formally considered as an outward writing , and abstract from these , as to assert them from which the letter had all the being it hath , and that thousands of years after all these antient rules and lights , that are to day , and yesterday , and for ever the same , without the least shadow of alteration , had been famous in the world among all the worthies from abel to moses , to have all their being from god to us ward meerly for the sake of the letter which was but of yesterday , and as well every day as every way mutable , and that so easily that 't is done in a time in but the turning of a hand , yea by the transposing of letters heb. points ( and like * as himself asserteth ) as many various lections may be in its several copies , welnigh as lines , and to represent all these , which gave the letter the being of a certain sub sub unto themselves , as subservient , unto it as if they were of , and for no other use nor end in the world , but to teach men to come ( not to god himself for life ) but to the letter and to read the book call'd the bible , which doth but imminde men , that forget them , to minde the light and spirit . i shall therefore only take this tale of j.o. & , mutatis mutandis , transform it by a transposition of the two subjects thereof , viz. the light and letter which i.o. hath mis used and mis-placed each into its proper place , use , and order and so quite quit it here , nullius literae externae cujuscunque tandem , &c. in plain english thus , of no external letter whatsoever although the holy scripture it self which j.o. calls saving is this the use and end that we should attend to it as to the guide of our way and rule , but to this end only is it graciously granted of god that by means thereof we may perceive to our salvation , that rule , i.e. the spirit , light , and word of god ad intra , and the minde of god revealed therein . in this translation is no truth hid that shall not be revealed , nor covered that shall not be known : so having turned j.os. babel with the bottome upwards , i shall let it stand and pass on about my business , concluding against thee i.o. in thy own words for the light and spirit to be that rule , thou sayest the letter is , from its perfection , ab authore . a causa perfecta , &c. from a perfect voluntary cause nothing but what is perfect can be expected , for nothing can hinder god , being willing to reveal his will , from revealing it perfectly as before the letter was , so now where the letter is not , among heathens , by his light and spirit , by which thou confessest he reveals it very far in the words forecited , but either because he cannot , which denies his infinite wisdome and omnipotency , or because he will not , which agrees not with his goodness and grace . * therefore god hath and doth give out by his light and spirit within a perfect revelation of his will , so that they consequently must be secundum te by thy own argument j.o. the only perfect standing rule ( for there are not two ) so far is the letter that came from them , from being so , as thy fancy fancies it to be , alone and exclusively of them , as uncertain , useless , needless , perillous and detestable . the second medium by which thou goest about to prove the foresaid conclusion , viz. that the letter or scriptures are the only perfect rule & revelation of god , his will , and our duty that gives to know him to eternal life , and not the spirit and light , which as enthusiasm , dubious , useless figment , &c. are with thee to be detested , is , a naturâ librorum sacrae scripturae , &c. from the nature of the books of the holy scripture , which are sayest thou ) those of the old and new testament : so ( sayest thou ) the apostle clearly dilates of the old testament ( cor. . . in the reading of the old testament ) of the new there 's the same reason , vers . now every testament ( sayest thou ) alluding to , but not quoting , gal. . . ) though but a mans , is perfect , and being once confirmed , no man disanulleth , or superaddeth thereunto . reply . never did i discern such absolute self-overturnings proceed from a professed doctor , as do from j.o. thick and threefold in the very cause he prosecutes , whose proofs of his own producing do as frequently confound him , and as fully foil him [ as to the matter he would prove thereby ] as any that can likely be produced against him by those he opposes ; and yet i verily beleeve he speaks the sense wellnigh of the whole vniversity it self , in which he hath in the late clawing , cringing , corresponding , and climing times , atchieved to become a chieftane . and that it may appear , le ts reason j.o. hereabout a little with thee , let me ask thee , is the gospel , is the new testament , letter , scripture , external text , and outward writing , as the old testament is ? is it such a passing , perishing , dark , low , obscure thing , as writing , or graving of points , tittles , and iotaes in tables of stone ( though with the singer of god himself ) much more it such a mouldring matter ( for so thy self callest the most original copies of the external text of the holy scripture that ever was in the world , p. . . and therefore well may i so call thy best bare transcribed copies of it ) as writings with inke , and stamping with lamb-black in roles , and books , and papers , and parchments with press hands and tools , which cannot be preserved so long as from ezra till now from mouldring without a miracle ? is the gospel , the new testament no more than such as thou talkest of ? is it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , typography which meer men can take , and turn , and translate , and tumble to and fro , and transcribe , and tear , and dash out , and do what they will with ? is it outward writings of epistles , and recommendations , and histories , and letters ( as that of paul to philemon ) about private , personal , and domestick affairs , and such like ? is it not an epistle of christ in the table of the heart ? though ministred sometimes by man at the motion of his spirit ? or if a writing , yet not with inke , but with the spirit of the living god in fleshly tables of the heart , cor. . is is as the old testament , as all meer writing ad extra only is , whether of old or since christ , and all outward 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or letter only , that cannot quicken , nor cure , but killeth such as serve , as thou yet doest , in the oldness of it ? is it not spirit , light , and life ? is it not the words of christ spoken by the lord himself alone , which are spirit and life ? in newness of which the true children of the new covenant , that are more then bastards that pretend to it , do serve , and not in the oldness of a letter , or that old way of the old scribes that came no nearer to christ the life , then the outside of the outward scripture , which was wrote of him ? is it any of these things ? are not these the best instruments of the old testament foolish shepherds , wherewith for a time they were suffered to feed , who made the poor of the flock the flock of the slaughter , taken up again since christ , directly beside the intent of christ , and such as wrote the later scriptures , by our idol shepherds that leave the flock to starve , so they can be better fed themselves , who are not behinde those of old in feeding , with gall and wormwood , the flock of the slaughter , in not pitying but slaying them , and yet holding themselves not guilty ? for which the sword of the lord is now upon their arm , and upon their right eye , so that their arm or power is now to be clean dryed up , and their right eye utterly darkned . ah poor be-wildred , be-nighted blind-guides of your blindly-guided people , that by custome and tradition from your mouths , who take it so to be by tradition from your fore-fathers , are now naturallized into a naming the naked dead letter by the name of the living word of the living god , and the four mis-transcribed and mis-translated copies of matthew , mark , luke , and iohns manuscript of what christ did in that body wherein he was born at bethlehem , and dyed at ierusalem , by the name of the gospel , and those four bare books , with the rest of those few that follow fardelled together with them in what fashion men most fancy , and bound up as the bible sellers please , by the name of the new testament . so thou talkest i.o. telling the world of the nature of the books of the scripture , as ye now have it is this , they are the old testament and the new , so thou intendest in thy saying , sunt autem veteris & novi testamenti . . citing paul , who calls the books of moses the old testament , cor. . . as ●●ll well he might , for the old testament was indeed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 letter or writing writen with inke and pen or ingraven outwardly on tables of stone , and not spirit or writing with the spirit of the living god in the fleshly tables of the heart , as the new is , which the saints are under , who are therefore said to serve , rom . . not in the oldness 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the letter , but in the newness , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the spirit . and then secondly , asserting that novi testamenti ●adem est rati● , the case is the same between the old testament and the new ( which is most false as to the thing in hand and . citing cor. . . in proof of it : by which thou shewest thy folly , for thou couldest not have well found out a fitter text for its disproof , & whether thou , who citest it , for borest to set it down yea or nay for fear its should be seen how far it contradicts what thou citest it for , i will not say , but i am sure a man that is but minded to miss the meaning of it may run and read how that verse subverts the busines thou bringest it in for : yea verily so far is that apostle , who truly calls the old testament by the names of book , heb . . and letter written & engraven in stones , and such like , from affirming with thee that the case is the same with the new testament , as to the name and nature thereof , that both in that verse and in the third ve●se also he more then intimates , yea plainly expresses that of the old and new testament in that particular more than any divers● est ra●io the case is diverse , yea so far different that he flatly opposes the one to the other , as things that , however agreeing otherwise , viz. in their being both glorious in som degree , though the new in a far greater degree then the other ( as a beautiful picture may agree in respect of beauty , glory , comeliness , and compleat resemblance in some degree with the substantial person , that is it pa●t●rn of ) yet dis●agree in this that the one is letter , outward writing , printing , and ingraving , &c. visible and legible by the outward eye ; the other not so , but internal , invisible , spiritual , written with the spirit in the heart , yea spirit it self , which while the letter is dead and killing , is only living , quickning , and giving life . yea two varying ministration doth the apostle make them , not on●y as one is that of death and condemnation to the children of it , of whom on pain of perishing it requires the living of a life , which it gives no ability to , and which the other , i e. the spirit only gives and inables to live , the other that of spirit , life , liberty , righteousness , glory , but also as the one , that is , the old is a writing ad extra only , the other , that is , the new , a writing , a scripture , only ad intra ( though written of by that without that he absolutely asserts a present inconsistency since the doing away of the old , between a mans being a minister now of both as once , and that posita novo tollitur vetus , the new being now come in full force , and confirmed by the testators death , the old testament , and its ministry is disanulled in regard of its weakness and unprofitableness ( however profitable as a type in its time for many uses ) to bring immediately to the life , so that he who is the minister of the one , i.e. of the old testament , i.e. of the letter , outward writing , text , or scripture , is not a minister of the other , i.e. of the new , i.e. of the gospel , righteousness , glory , liberty life and spirit ; and retro , he who is a true minister of the gospel or new testament [ as now standing in the force and substance it self out of the figure and shadows wherewith it was vailed of old ] is not ( though he may utter things , as moved of the spirit , that are written in the letter , as christ himself and the apostles did ) a minister of the old , as the old word-stealers , jer. . were , and our modern text-takers , and scripture-sellers are . paul taketh away the one from him on whom he stablisheth the other , denies the one , of whom he affirms the other , and opposes the new testament , which he stiles the spirit , to the letter , by which name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he denominates only the old : god , saith he , hath made us able ministers of the new testament , not of the letter , but of the spirit , for the letter killeth , but the spirit giveth life . . here is not all , nor yet not half of that absurdity and falshood that i.o. in his folly flings abroad in that small parcel above , which i am yet under the animadversion of , for whereas he sayes , i am vero omne testamentum est perfectum , every testament is perfect , intending it both of the old testament , and the new , and not only so , but of such a perfection as avails in hunc finens ut assequamur vitam aeternam , to this very end , viz the obtaining the life eternal it self ( for so is his assertion of the books of the scriptures , which he describes as to their nature , and concludes under that name of the old , and new testament ) his positi●n is so wofully false , that himself is as wonderfully foolish , who sees it not flatly contradictory to the scripture ; for howbeit the very old testament , or outward letter is duly owned by us to be a ministration of god ( from whom nothing can come , as is abovesaid , but what is perfect , praesertim respectu finis cui opus quodcunque deflinat , in reference to that end for which he appoints it ) absolutely perfect to that end for which it is given forth of god , which is to be an a , b , c , or elementary help , or outward worldly rudiment to indoctrinate younglings in their ●●nage concerning the inward light and spirit , as the only way that leads to christ the life from whom the light comes , and is lent as a line or clew of thread , that followed conducts through the valley , and shadow of death to the life it self , in which respect the letter of the law is called a school-master , tutor , governour , under whose tuition the under aged imbondaged ignorant ones may be trained up into a true understanding of the truth , as it is in j●sus , as by a shadow , type , figure , festraw , or finger that points the primarian professors more distinctly to that they are to eye and aim at more then it self , and by such as are in the faith and obedience to the light may be used too , to make them wiser toward salvation , and more perfectly furnish● 〈◊〉 every good work , as he that is past a novice , and is become a well-studied scholar can and may ( but must is another matter ) read in the horn-book as well and better than when he learned in it ; yet as to its being , so omnibus numeris absoluta & perfecta , as thou bablest , making it so perfect as to bring to the life , that is a meer antiscriptural fiction of thy own fancy , for though a man may by the horn-book learning become the more dispositively fitted to read in the bible , and other books of latine or logick . and so by degrees come at last to the capacity and degree of a doctor in the vniversi●y , yet he that shall say the horn-book is ( per saltum ) perfect to this end that without need of reading or learning any other books a person may by it alone become capable immediately of commen●ing dr. in divinity , shall by my consent be counted as ridiculous , silly and senseless as such as side with j. o s. sayings are , who say of the scripture or letter alone , exclusively of the spirit and light within it calls to walk in , that by it men may have the life , it gives the life , it is the only most perfect standing rule of faith and life ; yea is so perfect and absolu●● in all respects , that there is no need of any other revelation by the spirit or light within to instruct us in the knowledge of god , and our duty , to this end that we may obtaine eternal life , yea all these means of knewing god , and his will are uncertain , dangerous , unprofitable , in no wise necessary , and therefore to be rejected and detested as fanatick figment . for the foresaid hon●urer of the horn-book in his hyperbolical adoration of it would be as contrary to common sense and reason as i.o. and t.d. in their absolute admirations of the scripture , and abominations of the spirit and light within for its sake are both to sense and reason , and the common testimony of the scripture it self also , which testifies every where concerning the old testament or letter ( which i confess to be profitable , perfect , and absolutely able to the ends and uses of gods appointment as a typical testimony of those things which were to be spoken after that is weake , imperfect and unprofitable as to that end for which i ▪ o. asserts it per salium , to be so absolutely able , powerful and perfect to , that is to say to salvation and eternal life ; for it faith that it is the light and spirit that give the life , and the liberty from the lust and sin , to which the mother that is under the old testament , or letter of the law is yet in bondage with her children , and that the old testament , or letter lyes only in eatings and drinkings and diverse baptisms and carnal ordinance , imposed only till the time of reformation , heb. in weakè and beggerly rudiments or elements of the world , unto which who , having once begun in the spirit , are tu●ned aside to , are foolish and bewitched , and disobedient to the truth , and do but think in vain ) to be made perfect by the flesh , and desire again to be in bondage , and know not yet christ formed in them , but know him only outwardly , and after the flesh , gal. . . . , . cor. . , . are iews outwardly only , not truly , nor inwardly , nor circumcised with the circumcision made without hands , which is that of the heart in the spirit , not of letter , whose praise is not of men , but of god , but concis'd and conform●d according to the outward bodily exercises found in the letter , loving the praise of men , more than the praise of god ; and according to the law of a carnal commandement , not the inward worship of god in spirit , nor after the power of that endless life the light leads to . that the law of the letter , which had but the shadow of good things , and not the very image of the things themselves , could never make the corners thereunto perf●ct as pertaining to the conscience , heb . . . . that the old testament was faulty and failing , and defective , whereupon g●d made a new one , that could bring to life , as it could not , for if there had been a law which could have given life , verily righteousness should have come by it , gal. . for if it had been faultless or perfect , or could have made perfect , or given life , there had been no occasion for the second , heb. . , . that there is a disanulling of the commandement going before which was attendance to an outward letter , because of the weakness and unprofitablness thereof , because it could make nothing perfect , but only was the ushering in of a better hope , even of the light and spirit , by which we may draw nigh to god , who is light , heb. . , , . and with whom no letter lauder , that lives beside the light , & the mystery of the letter also , can have any fellowship at al. and lastly , as to thy saying that every , testament if it be but mans is perfect , so that when once confirmed none may disanul or add● to it . i answer , no perfect testament is to be dianulled when confirmed , and in full force , as it is only by the death of the testator ; but that shews thy assertion to be false , who saye● that every testament is perfect , inasmuch as the old testament or letter was disanulled [ which secundum te could not have been , if it had been perfect , and so omnibus numeris ) absolute as thou sayest ] in regard of the weakness & unprofitableness of it to bring to life ; and for the the faultiness and imperfection of the first , god himself whose testament it was , dedicated with the blood of bulls , goats , lambs , and calves , for the time then being only ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as intended for a while only 't was called a ceremony ) takes it away that he might establish the second , heb. . , . , , , . that is perfect to the giving of the life , which is ignorantly asserted by thee of the letter , for the letter , that was perfect to its own end as a shadow , was altogether imperfect thereunto . and that nothing is to be added to any testament once come in full force and vertue by the death of the testator [ as all testaments do then , and never till then , for heb. . , . where a testament is , there must of necessity also be the death of the testator for a testament is of force after men be dead , otherwise it is of no strength at all whilst the testator liveth ] this i freely grant as a truth , but utterly overturns all thou contendest for which that is the books of the apostles and evangelists , which were all written after christ the testators death , ' are the new testament , which how they can possibly be if thy own position be true , as it is , that to a testament , if but mans when confirmed , as it only and alwayes is by the testators death [ much more god's new testament after once confirmed by the death of christ the testator as it was before one letter of that scripture thou callest the new testament as written ] nothing must be added thereto , let all who are not void of judgement judge . for if the writings of the apostles and evangel●sts which were all added and penned after christs death , the testator of it , by whose death it came into full force and strength , be the new testament , an outward literal declaration of which new testament , i know it is , as the writings of moses and the prophets also are , both which are but the letter , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or old testament that in an external way declares the new , with this difference only that the writing before christ declared chrisiumexihibendum , those since chrisium exhibitum , the first christ to be offered , the later christ already offered ; i say if these later be the new testament then either one or both of these two absurdities must be owned , viz. that there hath been , where there should have been none , a superadding of very much to the new testament , or rather secondly , that the whole new testament was it self made since it was ratified and confirmed by the testators death . vtrum horum mavis accipe , own thou i.o. which thou wilt , or both of these if thou wilt , but i le never own that to be a mans testament only , much les , christs , but only fained so to be , that is added to , or rather wholly made after his death whose testament it is . i.os. other mediums are all too frivolous to insist upon . the third is ab expresso testimonio , the express , testimony of psal. . , . reply . where i have shewed before that by the law , testimony , commandement of the lord , is intended the light wee talk of , not the letter . the fourth , a materia scripturarum , the matter , which saith he ; is all the councel of god , and nothing but what the prophets and moses spake , alluding to act. . . and citing act. . . reply . in neither of which places paul doth either mention or mean any outward scriptures or writings of his own , much less other mens , but the things he ministred to the church of ephesus and her elders by word of mouth , delivering to every of them according to their stations and relations , how they ought to walk , and to please god , and with-holding nothing that was profitable either to elders or flock , act. . . and to all men small and great , the summe and substance of things fore-spoken of old , viz. repentance toward god , and faith toward iesus , vers . . and how there was now as to the mystery of truth , nil dictum quod non dictum prius , nothing said , which was not shewed before in the type and shadow . . a fine , from their end , which , quoth he , is . faith , joh. . . these are written that ye may beleeve , and rom. . . faith comes by hearing . reply . which first text , if intending faith in the history of things , that the letter may beget , men may have , and have from rome to this place , and yet perish , which latter text intends a saving faith : but that comes by hearing and hearing by the word of god , which word , saith paul above in the same chapter , is not the letter without , but a light within nigh in the heart and mouth of men , that they may hear and do it , even the word of faith which they preached . . wisdome to salvation , perfect , instruction to all good works , pet. . . tim. . . . reply . which scriptures i have spoken to before , and shewed how little they make to i.os. purpose , the first speaking not of the scripture at all . the second , how throw saith in the light first , the letter may be profitable toward , but not , per saltum , to salvation and perfection . attainment of eternal life , . joh. . . . reply . which life comes , as is there said above through christ , and beleeving in his light , which is his name , whom and which the scriptures testifie of , as appears by the two texts he cites , talked on enough by me already in way of answer to i.os. fancies and not by the letter or scriptures themselves , though searched after and lookt for there by the scribes , that neither heard nor saw the father , nor came to the son for life , nor could abide , that his word should abide in them . so that howbeit he concludes the scripture perfect in all respects , i say in respect to its own appointed end it is , as abiding incorrupted by mens wresting , as at first given out by holy men , yet not in all the respects , in which i.o. and t.d. assert it to be perfect , who makes it , as now altered and adulter●ted , the only most perfect standing rule of faith and life , and way and means of knowing his will , our duty , and of coming to eternal life , and that exclusively of all inward light and spirit , and other revelation , of which ( but where is the ' proof on'● ? ) his saies there is no need of them , but they are fictitious , uncertain , dangerous , abominable , and the like ; whereas i trust to make it appear there is no knowing god but by other revelation of him then the outward one that is made in the scripture , even by the revelation of himself within men . as for thy enthusiasm and colloquia angelica , vel ficta vel facta , thou mayest keep that to thy self , i pretend not to the defence of discourse with angels fained or true , yet to thy shame i shall say thus much in vindication of truth against thee , viz. that thou shewest thy self but a silly man to con●emn colloquia cum angelis vel sicta vel facta , and by whole sale to throw away without making any difference all conference with angels , whether made indeed , or but fained ? for what were all daniels , maries , pauls , i●hns , christs conferences with angels truly made , fit for nothing but thy flours , and for thee to make thy self sport with ? col. . . which thou cotest below will not save thee from the just censure of ignerant impudence , sith that condemns a worshipping of angels only , as also the angel himself condemns that , whom iohn would have worshipt , rev. . . . and forbids it ; but conference with angels , not counterfeit , and ficta , but facta : which thou makes no bones of to render detestable in thy dirty driblings , as well as fained , are of those good things thou speakest ill of , because thou knowest them not . having grubd up by the roots the first of j. os. grand artificial arguments grounded inartificially upon testimonies of scriptures , which he calls inartificial ones , and disproved all his petty and subordinate proofs of the minor proposition thereof on which the whole stress of his evidence stood ; i proceed to examination of the rest . arg. . his second is , a perfecta operatione seu effe●tu scripturarum , from the perfect operation and effect of the scripture . in english thus , if the scripture doth accomplish in its way of efficacy , which is moral , all things that can possibly be effected by any revelation of gods will whatsoever in order to our due and sincere worshipping of god , and coming at last to life eternal , then vain are all those foresaid principles of the knowledge of god , viz. the spirit and light within , which the fanaticks falsly boast of . but the former is true : therefore , &c. the minor of this argument which i deny , hath a whole troop of testimonies or texts of scripture pressed to attend the proof thereof , which i.o. takes to be such a trusty life-guard ( and most of them are so to the qua. cause concerning the light , word , and spirit within ) that there is no doing any thing in denial thereof , that can reach to the rendring of it untrue ; but unless it be some one or two of them that mention the letter as profitable in a way that will prove little to his purpose , the rest will frustrate his expectation of assistance from them , sail him & fal in with us neither expressing nor implying any such matter as the scripture as he supposes , but intending all the very truth we contend for against him , viz. the efficacy , profitable , and powerful operation of the inward light , word and spirit of god , which he ironically glories over as inania , inutilia , incerta minime necessaria , fictitia , rejicienda , detestanda , and such like . those texts are ps. . . . . rom. . , . king . . iam. . . tim. . . isa. . , . i●r . . . ioh. . . . ioh. . . rom. . ● . heb. . . here 's a whole jure impannelled again , of which he imagines that they will all give their verdict his way for the scripture , that it doth efficere ea omnia praedicté , yea alia omnia perficere , &c. effect the things aforesaid , yea and perfect or accomplish all things necessary to gods glory and our salvation alone , so that inania sunt falsa , &c. all revelation , or means of revelation by these things , viz. the spirit or light within , the qua. call to , are vain and false , &c. but ( setting aside two of them , viz. tim . . rom. . . ( as i have shewed above ) which though they do speak of the outward scriptures being useful , profitable and comfortable to the saints , yet prove them not to be therefore the only perfect standing rule of faith and life for the reason rendred by t.d. why all scripture that is by inspiration is not so , because besi●es inspi●ation to make a rule is necessary gods appointment of writings to that end , pag. . of his . pamph. which said appointment to that end the book called the bible hath not , saving only that appointment of man ) not so much as one of all the rest of his trusty texts do either mention or mean ought of the outward scripture , i.o. cites and summons them all together to pass their vote for , but do all unanimously give their verdict on the behalf of that holy spirit , word , and light within which the qua. stand to vindicate as the antient , most perfect , useful , certain , stedfast standing rule of faith and life , and way of gods revraling his will to us , and of our saving knowledge of himself , and it , and our duty to him in particular , against that venome , i.o. and t.d. spit out against them , with which they are big , i.o. specially , under the slanderous disgraceful and opdrobrious compellations of uncertain , dangerous , unuseful , in no wise necessary , counterfeit , abject , detestable : so that i might let them all pass & take no notice of them , unless he had brought such scriptures in proof the scriptures power and efficacy as make some mention thereof either expresly or implicitly at least ; yet since they make not little to i.os. as they make much for the qua. cause against him , who affirm the word in the heart , and light within , to be that which he falsely and ignorantly asserts the letter to be , viz. the only standing rule and way of knowing god savingly , and means of revelation of himself and w●● , and our duty to us , of our obtaining life , and that very self-evidencing effectual light , and power of god to salvation ; i am minded to insist here a little longer upon them , and perhaps upon such other texts as i.o. elsewhere wrests this way in proof of the self-evidencing efficacy , light and power of the scriptures in his english treatises , as well as in his latine theses . the first of i.os. twelve texts ( ten whereof nor talk of , nor intend , nor mention , nor mean the sripture at all ) viz. ps. . it hath been talkt with already above , where i have shewed that the law of god , which is therefore said to be a restituens animam , restoring and converting the soul , is the light the letter speaks of , and not the letter it self , which any but a blinde man may see ; for what letter was written when david wrote this ? very little more then the books of moses , which i.o. himself , and all men con●ess to be but the old testament , which is but the letter that killeth , for is that outward letter of the apostles and evangelists were the new testament , as they call it , yet none of that was in being till above a thousand years after david , and the old testament that was in his dayes is now abolished , neither it nor the letter nor outward statutes and judgements of it being given to any but jacob or israel after the flesh , as a type of the new testament or covenant that is now made good to israel after the spirit ; but that text i say hath been unfolded enough before , so that though i meet with it again here , as i have done twice before ( and whether i may again or no it matters not , but sure i am that some scriptures thou citest four , and some five or six times over at least in thy book , how much more i know not in proof of the scriptures being this and that , which testifie no one tittle of any thing concerning the scriptures at all , so dry are our doctors and divines drawn and nearly driven to finde out furniture in the scripture in defence of their false faith , and meer figments about the scripture i shall meddle no mo more with it here , nor with the second that are sufficiently forespoken to , though they both speak something ( as good as nothing to thy cause concerning the outward scriptures , viz rom. . tim. . as for the other nine they all with one consent , and more that elsewhere thou cotest , do declare the authority , efficacy , self-evidencing light and power of the word of god within , which both the qua. and the scriptures bear one and the self-same testimony to , but predicate nothing at all of the scriptures , which nine together with the rest that are coincident therewith and truly cogent to all mens consciences , as concerning the witness they give to the inward word , the outward letter relates of , i shall here take under consideration , in what order is not very much material . as to that ioh. . . in which two verses christ to the jews speaks of one and the same thing , which run thus , if ye continue in my words , ye are my disciples indeed , and ye shall know the truth , and the truth shall make you free : if a m●n keep my saying , he shall never see death . i reply . reply . christs word and his saying is efficacious and powerful to tree them that continue beleeving in it , and deliver from death ▪ and give life , yea that the words he speaks are spirit and life , according as he sayes of them , ioh. . . and vers . . the words of eternal life ( which text pag. . thou i.o. very falsely expoundest of moses , the prophets and apostles writings ) this who ●●●●ies ? which word of his as it s heeded in the heart where it is spoken and laid up there till it dwell richly within sits men to teach and admonish others according to col. . . which text also thou understandest ex. . s . and t.d. too p. . of his . pamph. of the scripture or letter without , and that the word that christ speaks to every man in his own heart and conscience , whose voice and word , and gods word also , his sheep hear , and such as are of god , when others do not , cannot , because they will not , joh. . . . . , . is that which leaves without cloak or excuse in their sins , joh. . and that the word that god by christ the light , and christ by his spirit and light in the conscience speaks , is that which who so beleeves in , and hears , abides not in darkness or errour , but comes to know the truth that sets him free from the law of sin and death , and brings to life ; and who hears not , or hears and beleeves not , or receives not , but rejects , shall be judged by at the last day , according to joh. . , , , , . this i do not deny , for this is it ( and not the letter here , as it is sometimes used as the lights instrument , which was never in the heart , how much less the letter chiefly , only , authoritatively , exclusively of any other revelation by the sp●ri● and light within , a● thou spitte● it out , to w●ich letter , yet pag. . , , . thou ●o 〈◊〉 all those powerful properties ) which dive , into the hearts , co●science● , and secret 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 of men whether they ever saw , read , heard , or heard of the letter yea or nay , judges , sentences them in themselves , convinces , tes●ifies , conquers , kills men , converts , builds up , makes wise , holy , obedient , ministers consolation in every condition , to whom it is due , and ( as thou sayest intending it of the scripture , which is peculiar only to the light within the heart the scripture speaks of ) guides , teaches , directs , determines , judges in , and upon men in the name , majesty , and authority of god ; also i deny not but the word of christ spoken by christ himself in the conscience is that which is effectual to purge the conscience and cleanse the heart that it may bring forth fruit to god , and the way accordin to ioh. . where he sayes , now ye are clean through the word that i have spoken unto you ; and according to that of paul , eph. . . who saith , christ cleanseth and sanctifieth by the washing of water through the word ; and that of david , psal. . who saith that the means by which a young man may cleanse his way is by taking heed thereto according to gods word , which word of god also he sayes , vers . . he had hid in his heart that he might not sin against god , which inward word of god , that is so abundantly spoken of [ as i elsewhere shewed ] in that . psal. that there is not past two of three among those . verses of it , in which it is not mentioned , as to i●s efficacy , excellency , usefulness , profitableness , and power under one name or other of either testimonies , statutes , judgements , precepts , law , commandements , &c. all sounding out one and the same , is stiled ( for it was not an outward writing with mens hands he there means ) vers . . the law of gods mouth , and . the testimony of gods mouth , intimating that which came more immediately from god to him in his heart , then the writings of moses could do , even out of his own mouth in him , whom he and habakuk . . and all the pr●ph●ts , excep● the word-stealers , heard what he would say in them , ps. . . jer. . . receiving from his mouth & stood in his counsel the light within . that that scripture , joh. . is true of chri●ts words in what it speaks of them , and the rest that are suitable to it , i deny not , but that either it , or any of them by god , or christs words , or sa●ing● intend the scriptures without at all , much more altogether exclusively , as thou talkest of the word , spirit and light within , and the revelation of minde and will of god thereby immediately in the heart ; this i utterly deny , affirming that the internal reveation of his minde to men by his own ●oice from his own mouth in their consciences is that which is mainly , yea only , and altogether intended in them , yea and in some , not to say all of them , exclusively rather of the scriptures , as which indeed are not the word or words that are declared to effect those precious things , but are only outward writings of spiritually inspired men , who witnessed its efficacy in themselves , that declare those precious things which the inward word effecteth : and the like i respectively affirm and deny as concerning that other text , jer . . of thy own alledging , where god saith of his word it s a fire , and a hammer that breaketh the rocks in peeces , denying it utterly to be meant of the writings of the true prophets , out of which the false ones stole the words they preacht , and then ran and said , thus saith ●he lord , declaring in his name when he never spake to them , nor sent them , when like the scribes for all their telling things as the word of the lord , as they read this or that in the scriptures , they had never as any time heard his voyce , nor flood in his counsel , nor received , nor marked his words as coming out of his own mouth , and affirming it to be meant of the word of god ministred immediately by his own voice in the conscience , which is said to be accompanied with the like mighty effects in the hearts of wicked , sturdy , proud , haughty minded men that are likened to mountains and rocks against which the lord comes in a way of terrible storms and thunderings which prepare his way , king. , , and to lofty cedars of lebanon , and strong oaks of bashan , isa. . . to the end , in psal. . , , , . &c. where it is said , the voice of the lord is upon the great waters , or peoples , rev. ● . . the god of glory thundereth , the voice of the lord is powerful , full of majesty , breaketh the cedars , divides the flames , shakes the wilderness , makes the ●lindes calve , discovers the forrests ; and that its of this , and not the letter which men steal nad call the word , is evident by the verses about it , where the lord declares himself to be against the prophets that steal , and tell and sell what they read in the true prophets writings which they wrest according to their own dreaming thoughts into sinister senses , and to tell lies and dreams , and divinations of their own brain for truth , which stoln ware , though they vent the same word which they read in others writings , not receiving and uttering as from gods own mouth , god calls but the vision of their own mouth , and the chaff which is nothing to the wheat , and not the other , vers . . moreover as to the other of thy texts i am yet in hand with , viz. jam. . . tim. . . heb. . . psal. . . isa. . , . all which thou urgest in proof of one and the same spirit of falshood , viz. in vindication of the scriptures to be powerful to salvation , to beget faith , to bee living , sharp , spirit searching , discerning thoughts , a light and lamp , and so cons●quently the only perfect standing rule of faith and life exclusively of another revelation by the spirit , word , or light within , these are a●● true of the word and doctrine of christ the spirit and light within , the qua. call to , and the letter points at in all these texts of thy traducing , but m●thinks thou shouldest be ashamed to expound any one of those of the letter and scripture itself . as to that of paul to timothy , take heed to thy self , and to the doctrine , continue in them in so doing thou shalt save thy self and them that hear thee . what 's this in proof of the scriptures being powerful to save the soul , which is the end of thy alledging it ? he bids him continue in the things he had learned ( as also tim. . . ) and had been assured of knowing of whom he learnt them , which if it were from paul as a means under god , as it rather seems to be from christ himself , whose disciple he was ( as he could not be but as he laarnt of him ) before he became acquainted with paul , act. . , . the promise is entailed unto his continuance in the things , and not ascribed to any power or efficacy of the scriptures to save , though yet we know timothy was well skilled in the scriptures also , as is owned above . and as to that of james with which thou joynest this in proof of the outward letters power to save , to which also , p. , . thou jumblest together a number more then are in this catalogue underhand , and which i shall take in here , that speak of the word with one consent to one and the same purpose ( but not to thine which is to prove the scripture to be so ) as most effectual , powerful , and able to save souls , yea the very power of god to salvation . viz. rom. . . cor. . . cor. . . thess. . . psal. . . act. . . joh. . . gal. . . col. . . and more out of the co●●nths misco●ed , from which tex●s thou powerest out thy blinde opinion of the bible , and concerning the scripture thereof in this particular , in such wise , saying it is absolutely called the power of god , vis , virtus dei , the power of god , the gospel , the power of god , and faith which is built on that word without other helps or advantages is said to stand in the power of god ; the word that comes not as a naked word , but in power and in the holy ghost , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , giving all manner of assurance , and full perswasion of it self , even by its power and efficacy : it is termed the rod of power or strength , denoting its authority and efficacy ; that which is thus the power and authority of god , able to make it self known so to be : it is not only said to be , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , power , the power of god in it self , but also , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , able and powerful in respect of us , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the sacred letters , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which are able to make wise to salvation , they are powerful and effectual to that purpose , it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , potens servare anima● nostras , the word that hath power in it to save ; the able , powerful word that paul commends the ephesians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it is living and effectual : by v●rtue of this power it brought forth fruit in all the world without sword , without for the most part miracles , without humane wisdome or oratory without any inducements or motives , but what were meerly and solely taken from it self consi●ting in things that eye hath not seen , nor ear heard , nor could enter into the heart of man to conceive hath e●erted this power and efficacy so the conquest of the world , causing men of all sorts in all times and places so to fall down before its divine authority , as immediately to renounce all that was dear to them in the world , and to undergo what ever was dreadful , terrible and destructive to nature in all its dearest concernments and such like . reply . all this i know to be true of the word , light , and spi●it of god in the hearts of men which the letter points to , and the apostles preached as that which men should beleeve in , it is absolutely the gospel , the power of god to salvation , but the letter not so , the faith that is built on that word without other helps or advantages from the letter stands in the power of god , as abraham , noahs , enoch , abels , and all the holy men did , that lived by faith in the word , 't was gods power , mighty , and effectual to save them before any outward letter was written , and without the help and advantage thereof , but the outward letter is profitable to nothing at all without the help and advantage of the light and spirit within , but is a dead letter , of no efficacy for the good of souls ; and this the same j.o. who sayes , the scripture without other helps and advantages , is so absolute and perfect that we may obtain eternal life , that there 's no need of any other revelation by the spirit or light within ; but those are all dangerous , uncertain , unprofitable , in no wise necessary , fanatick figment , desestable , &c. ex. . s. . to the wonted contradiction , of himself in all t●at , and what is underhand confesses with us in totidem verbis of that scripture , which he calls the word , p. . saying , that without the adminis●ration of the spirit accompanying mens possession of it , it is a dead letter of no efficacy to the good of souls . the word light and spirit of god and christ within , nigh in the heart , but not the letter without is the gospel , which paul bare testimony to , and was sent to turn men to by his ministry , and was not ashamed of , saying its the power of god to salvation , to every on that beleeves in it , and comes in the outward ministry of it by word of mouth and writing [ and is witnessed so to do at this day as of old it did ) to many not in word only , but power and the holy spirit , giving all manner of assurance and full perswasion of it self to such as through prejudice put it not away from them , and thereby judge themselves unworthy of that eternal life , which it is the word of , that it is not the word of men , but [ as it is in truth ] the word of god , that is both light and living , and spirit , and life it self , even the light of the glorious gospel of christ the image of god , which is not letter , cor. . thining unto them both in , and also out of the darkness that is mens hearts , where the god of this world blindes not the minds so that men will not beleeve it , to the giving them the knowledge of the glory of god in the face of christ. this , and not the letter is the rod of power , which god promi●ed to send out of sion , even the rod and sharp sword of his mou●h and breath of his lips , wherewith he will now smite the nations , and slay the wicked , and reprove with equity on the behalf of the meek of the earth , whom the proud oppress , even the word of his mouth , which he will put into the mouths of his sucklings , and their seed and seeds seed , out of which he ordains strength to the perfecting his own praise against the persecutor . this , and not the weak dead letter , bible or scripture thou so labourest , bablest , and scriblest for , is that power and authority of god , able [ as the outward writing is not ] to make it self known so to be ; for the letter is as lifeless , helpless , powerless , as any other book , writing , or dumb idols that men adore and receive ( a● ye with the iews of whom thou speak'st p. . do the bible at this day ) with the honour and veneration due to god that cannot stir from the place where it s set as neither can the scripture from where it s laid no more than the turkish alcoran ; ye● , as jeremiah in his epistle sai●h of the weakness and vanity of all the idols of the heathen , whom they make powerful gods of , th●se gods , quoth he , cannot save themselves from rust and moths , though they be covered with purple , they wipe them because of the dust of the temple , when there is much upon them , men put the scepter in their hands , as if they were the iudge of the country , and daggers and axes , but they cannot deliver themselves from theeves , nor of themselves put to death one that offends them , as a useless vessel worth nothing when broken so it is with their gods , they are as the beams of their temples , upon their bodies and heads str●bats , swallows , birds , and cats , they are things in which is no breath , yet they set and sell , and buy them at a high price , they are carried , having no feet ●o walk with , if they fall to the ground , they cannot rise up again of themselves , the same , together with what follows ( caeteris paribus ) baruch . may be said of the adored best copies of the great bibles that lye in the great old mouldy popish parish mass-houses , now called the protestant churches where the bells hang , the ministers of the letter not the spirit , the elder sort of which are priests by ordinatio●● * fit in their temples and roar and cry the word of god , the law , the light , the way to life , the gospel , the power of god to salvation , as the iews do when their copy is carried about , but these gods of those idol shepherds that leave their poor flock at any time for another that hath a better fleece , can do nothing at all , cannot withstand any king or enemies , are not able to escape either from theeves or robbers , nor when fire falleth on the houses where they are , to help or save themselves , or flye away , how then shall we think they ( the books called bibles the scriptures ) are so powerful and effectual not only in themselves , but also in respect of us , as without any other helps or advantages to shew themselves to be the great authority and power of god , vis , virtus dei , to our salvation , as i.o. dreams ? if he say he means not the text , but the word it talks on , let him say so then when he writes again , and then we will take it for granted he gives the cause in question to the qua. whom he quarrels with for denying the bible , letter , scripture , outward writing to be the living , effectual , able , powerful word of god , that gives life and saves and such like , and so we shall meddle no more with him as to that matter , but so long as he will needs damn down the qua. as denyers of scriptures , and the word of god too , because they deny the letter , or text to be properly the truth , or word of god , it doth but declare and talk on , we must thereby understand him to intend the letter which he talks for . moreover as to the light of god and word nigh in the heart which the apostles preached to turn men to , and taught them , as the scripture also doth in its testimony there to , to attend to as the rule of faith and life , this is that word of the truth of the gospel , which is v is , virtus dei , the power of god , by the vertue of which power it brought forth fruit in the collossians , and in all the world where it so came , when it came unto them in the ministry thereof , which was the means by which they heard of it first , and then came themselves to hear it ▪ and to know the grace of god in truth even that grace that bringeth the salvation and appeareth to all men , effectually instructing ( as well without , as with the outward letter of it ) all that le●rn at it to deny ungodliness , and worldly lusts , and to live soberly , righteously and godly in this present world , which is the light of god in the conscience called the goodness of god , or grace given to lead them to repentance , who despising the riches of it , are not led by it to repent , and so treasure up wrath to themselves , &c. tit. , . rom. . , . this is it which brought forth fruit in the world , without sword , miracles , humane wisdome , oratory , or any inducements , or motives , but what are meerly and solely taken from it self consisting in things which eye hath not seen , ear heard , nor the heart of the animal , natural man , or of any but the spiritual man that by the spirit which only searcheth and revealeth them discerneth the deep things of god , can discern or conceive . this is that that hath exerted its power and efficacy to the conquest of the world ( so far as it hath been cap●ivated in the high proud thoughts of it ) to the true obedience of christ , causing men of all sorts , times , and places so to fall down before its divine authority , as to renounce all that its dear , underg●● all that it dreadful and destructive to nature in its dearest concernment . as for the letter , the scripture , which thou speakest of in a sense abstract from all other helps and advantages , as that which without need of any other revelation by the spirit and light within ( for these thou call'st superfluous mediums ) doth plead for reception not onely in comparison with , but also opposition to all other wayes of coming to the knowledge of god , his mind and will founded thereon , and calls for attendance and submission with supreme and uncontroulable authority , . as that which hath brought forth so much fruit , and exerted so much power . what power hath it put forth to conquer the world into such submission to the truth as it is in iesus , as christ requires , or as the letter it self either calls for ? what fruits of righteousnesse hath it brought forth in the world cal'd christian , to the glory of god , for all its being conceived in thy brain to be the power of god both in it self , and in respect of you ? look upon all litteral profess●rs that run a whoring from god the lord , the spirit and the light that shines in them , there shewing moral good and evil , and spiritual good , and spiritual wickedness also ( for the fruites of the spirit , and works of the flesh , and the lusts thereof , envy , hatred , lasciviousness , &c. are manifest , and what ever manifests them , and all things in the conscience , is the light within , which is the armour against the one , and the enabler to the other , and not the letter wihout which only sayes so of the light and see what works most abound in the most reformed nations and churches of it , that are turned aside from the truth it self to a meer talking of the text that talks of it , are they not the same that are to be found among papists that live by no other professed rule but tradition and popish putasion ? yea set aside that grosser sort of superstition and thicker cloud of superfluous ceremonies in matter of outward observations in religion , in which the kingdome of god , which stands in inward righteousn●●s of the heart , expressing it self outwardly in the life , comes not as to moralities , mercy , iudgement , equity , honesty , innocency , love , purity , humility , faith and fear of god unfained , which are the end of carnal commandements contained in ordinances , and bodily exercises that else are profitable to little , which said moralities , as little as thou makest of moral obedience , moral good is that which the light in all mens hearts may avail to lead them to , p. , , . as if these were some pedling trivial matters that god regards not , which yet indeed being done in the light , out of which god , who is light , accepts of nothing , nor hath pleasure or delight in any of your litteral performances , are n● less then spiritualities fruits of the spirit , and of the spirics only , and not the letter , bringing forth ( for the letter never yet brought forth the spirits fruits in its ministers and children , who for all their searchings and lookings into , and labouring for the letter , sow to the flesh still , as the scribes and pharisees did of old , that trusted in moses and the prophets writings , and of the flesh reap corruption whilest the ministers not of the letter , but the spirit the children of the light , sow to the spirit , and of it , and the light reap the life it self , and these are the weightier matters of the law , i say , as to the foresaid moral matters ( saving the grosser dimnest of their devotions are not the same that is to say , as good fruits found among poor papists as amongst you , and as bad among you as with them , and as unsound ? yea v in tu c●rtis iudaeis ●ppeder● , wilt thou judge and disdain the concised letter-lauding ●ew , o thou meerly rantized scripture-profissing-christian , when they , who make their boast of the antient ceremonies and letter of the law , do not more through breaking the law in the morals and spirituals of it , then ye , who boast of the later letter and ceremonies thereof , through breaking the weightier moral and spiritual matters of it do dishonour god ? is not your vine a● the vine of sodome to the lord notwihstanding your solemn meetings and sabbaths , and fasts and fained forms , and many things that god never required at all , as much as theirs , who were punctualin performance of the very things that god himself required ? and are not your goodly grapes of injustice , cruelty , whippings , imprisonings , persecutings of tender conscences for tel●●ng truth , for not paying tythes , &c. and all other iniquity , dissoluteness and propaneness that overflows in vniversities , cities , countries , as the grapes of gommorrah , as theirs were , and as clusters of gall and wormwood ? yea shall not the gentile , the hea●hen , as ye call them , the uncircumcist●n , the unchristned people , as to the letter , that by the remants of the pure nature ( for the cor●upt nature only breakes the law * ) do the things contained in the law and shewed them in the light within them , by which they are a law to themselves , and go accused or excused in their own conscences before god , judge as well thee , who by the letter and baptism transgressest it as the iews who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law , and rebel against the light ? is not as much of the true righteousness found among many heathens , as among most litteral christians , who ever name the name of christ , but never depart from iniquity ? what geat efficacy and power then hath the letter alone of it self without any other helps , advantages , or any other revelation by the spirit and light within put forth and exerted to the conquering of the world , and the bringing forth of fruit in all the world , when as it is evident that it never yet subjected any one , whether minister or professor of it to the perfect obedence of it self in the main matters of it , as the light and spirit hath done done the children of it : as for our parochial and academical livers by the letter ( temporally i mean , for otherwise they live neither by the letter , nor the light ) but beside both , both they and their bible-blessing beleevers are far from answering the call of their very literal rule , which is all they own under that name and notion : that they are not come by it into the faith that ever they shall conform to it , or be perfected in holiness , or cleansed from sin by it either in this world , or that to come ; for whereas much of it is written in way of warning not to sin , ioh. . . and is profitable and powerful [ as they say themselves from tim. . . which speaks of timothy men of god only , and also not exclusively of all other helps and advantages from the spirit and light as i.o. but as in conjunction with faith , which is in the light as is shewed above ] to make men wise to salvation and perfect in good works , they are so far from beleeving it possible in this world not to sin , and be perfected in holiness or good works , that they deny it as little better than plain popery to affirm any works done , though by christs own power in us to be truly or perfectly good , or any better than dung and filthy rags witness t.d. who ( as above said , p. ● . of his pamp. ) sayes the righteousness wrought in paul after his onversion was christs and yet renounced by him as dung & damn it down ●● doctrine of devils to teach men that they may be fully free from sin here , witness t. rumsey , whose blinde judgement therein t.d. justifi●r in p. . of his ● . pamph. and that its most false to say the scripture either doth , or can obtain its end fully towards us while we are in this world , and yet that it is of no use to us in the world to come also ; so denying again what other whiles they affirm of the power and perfection of the scripture , the perfection of which [ say they ] stands in no other thing than in sufficiency to effect its proper end which is with them the most perfect instruction of men in the knowledg and wor●hip of god , so that they may obtain eternal salvation , witness i.o. whose k●unds and contradictions to himself in that point i shal here see down in his own words englished , which were written by him in latine * j.o. god the author of the scripture being the most perfect agent , must necessarily , act for some end , therefore in the declarati●n of his wi●l in the scripture , 't is sure he had some propounded end ; but ●her●as the end is t●of●ld . ● . v●tima●e and ●emo●e . . next and immediate , we state the ultimate , supream and general end to be his own glory : the immediate or next end of his giving the scripture● , and so of the scriptures themselves we con●end to be our direction in the knowledge of god , and obedience to be yeelded to him , that at length we doing his will , may obtain eternal salvation , and the enjoyment of himself , for this is the end of the worker , and of the work . what god intends by the scriptures that they , to wi● , morally , and in the way of operation proper to them d● effect . but when a● the perfection of every discipline consists in relation to its end , and that is to be held perfect w●ich is sufficent to its next end , but that imperfect which cannot obtain it prop●sed end the perfection of the scriptures can consist in no other thing then in its sufficiency in respect to its proper end , which is the instruction of men in the knowledge and worship of god that they may attain eternal salvation . in this sense therefore we assert the scripture to be the most perfect rule of the whole worship of god , and o●r obedience . reply . whether ●●ere be not a more perfect way of our instruct●on in the saving knowledge of god then the scripture appears elsewhere , where i shew no saving knowledge of god comes any way but the inward revelation of himself in us by his light and spirit . here only obse●ve i o. confusi●ns and confutation of himself in this above , by that which follows , when the quae. say the scripture is perfect to its own proper end , and its end being obtained , it ceases : then quoth he ) * it s most false that the scripture obtains it whole end in respect of us while we are in the world , therefore till heaven and earth pass away , not one j●t or tittle of the law , i.e. letter with him shall fail , for not only the begetting of faith , but also the building up in it while we live here is the end of the scripture : so then its end which is begetting to , and building up in the faith is not effected by it here ; is it then in the world to comes 〈◊〉 no neither ( quoth he in the self-same section ) the use of the scripture sh●●● cease then being accomodated only to our present state and faith also , as founded on it ●●●ll be done a●ay . ex . s. . here then is the round i.o. makes with a cris-cross in the middle of it , viz. the perfection of the scripture which we plead and affirm , and of every thing else , is its sufficiency and efficacy to accomplish its own proper immediate end , and what ever doth not so is imperfect ; the immediate end of the scripture is its direction , instruction of men in the saving knowledge of god , his will , worship , their obedience and duty to him , the ingeneration of faith and edification up in it to salvation ; this whole end of the scripture its most false to affirm that it accomplishes till the world to come ; it must do it in this world , or in the world to come ; in this world it cannot possibly do it for perfection in the faith in holiness & freedom from sin here is not attainable ; in the world to come it cannot possibly , for there both the scripture it self , and also the faith it se●f , that is founded on it , will cease to be of any use at all , being of use only here , ●nd shall be both done away . verbum sat sapients , insipienti plura plus satis . never did i see such rounds and crosses and confusions , and contradictions such self-confutations and net-works , and checker-work and webs , and snares , as i.o. makes , and hangs hampered in himself when he hath done , made and woven among any , but our wofully benighted divines , all whose works are done in the darke , isa. . . in all my dayes before . is the scripture then the power of god to salvation , able , mighty , effectual , available to its end , that is to save the soul , as i.o. sayes it is ? ( no quoth i.o. ) it is not , it s most false to say it doth , or can avail to its end in this world , & in the world to come its of no force ; so if it be the power of god ( as i.o. affirms it over and over again it is ) it must be in some world that is past away , or some new found world or other , for he himself sayes its neither in this present world , nor that to come , neither now , nor hereafter , neither here nor there : but alas , as the world it self , wherein he fancies such a thing to be , is none knows where , but a meer chimaera of his own coining , hatcht no where but in his own head , the shop where and whence many more such like toyes are shapen , sold and uttered among such as having sold the truth , are willing rather to trade in utter untruths then in nothing at all , and not receiving the love of the truth that they might be saved , but taking pleasure in unrighteousness more then it , are given over to strong delusion to beleeve lyes that they may be damned . for seriously that the letter or scripture is the power of god to salvation , or that word of god which brings forth any good fruit to perfection among either the seedsmen the ministers of the letter , that sow nothing but their own senses and thoughts upon it , or in the stony , thorny , common high-way ground of parish peoples hearts , in which they sow , the letter mingled with their own chaffy cogitations saying , hear the word of the lord , when yet they confess themselves neve heard his voice . this however ye imagine , oh ye power less , profitless prophets , is a meer no such matter ; for that is the word or seed that is sown by the supreme sowes the son of man himself in the same field or world of mens hearts , in which the world is , where the devil in the dark night while men sleep and watch not to the light , sows tares among the good seed , which where it lights on honest hearts that hear and heed the word patiently , continuing in the keeping of it , brings forth abundantly in some thirty , some sixty , some ●n hundred fold . indeed the letter , the text or scripture , declares , and bears witness to the word , which is absolutely necessary , effectual , perfect to the ends aforesaid , which is the power of god , the light of god , the wisdome , saving truth , immediate witness , clearest way of revelation , soul-cleansing law , sure foundation , most perfect rule , immoveable stedfast standard of gods setting up , but it self is nos all , nor any of this , nor doth it at all any where avouch it self to be any of it at all . the scripture points to that , which is the power of god by the being of which , in and upon his people , who only own and joyn to it , they are made a willing people in the day thereof , when such as turn from , and against the light , which is the power , and labour in the weak naked letter labour in vain , and are left unwilling to leave their lusts and lives for christ , as his maryrs or outward witnesses did in all ages : but the letter it self is not power of god , that sustained them in the suffering , and inabled them to forgo what was dear to them , and to undergo what was dreadful and destructive to nature in its dearest concernments . the letter tells us that the saints did so , and tells us , and all saints that we should do for christ , but the power by which this is done is another matter , then a letter ad extra , even the inward light , word and spirit , that thou doest despite to , even that in the conscience , that made them indure as seeing him who is invisible , and discovered the dark●●ss , upon the discovery of which they rather chose death then to own it as light and truth , not only in ages as high as moses , who by faith in the light chose affliction rather then sin , and feared not the wrath of pharaoh , but also from him downward as low as maries dayes , in which some died for denying the darkn●ss of the popes d●ctrines of transubstantiation , &c. which the light in their consciences told them were too gross to be of god , who yet by their confession could not dispute against it with vniversity sottish sophisters , doctor dunces out of letter , nor so much as read a letter therein , and also as low as these dayes wherein by the power of god many are born up to bear the trials of the cruel academical mockings , scoffings , scourgings , in●lictings , stonings , bonds , imprisonments , abuses to death , witness one of the first of the lords two hand-maids that were sent to warn the vniversity of their universal abomi●ations at oxford in the time of i.os. vice chancellorship there ▪ who perhaps may not be so learned literally , though mystically and spiritually more in the letter , as obtuse ācuti ●omun●ione● , many of those dull-beaded nimble disputers out of it are in their bald fashion of syllogistical form . neither did the letter either of the old testament ( which is the letter without , of what things soever written ) or the outward letter of the new , ever conquer the world in which thou sayest it brought forth so much fruit , further then into a meer empty fruitless form of godliness without the power thereof , insomuch that though as to the primitive christian churches , while they kept in the light , which the apostles ministry whether by word of mouth , or writing , letter , scripture , was to turn them to walk by , and beleeve in * and in the spirit in which they began , till foo●ishly being bewitched from obeying the truth it self they turned aside to the outward text that tells it , and so thought to be made perfect by the flesh , and the fleshly bodily exercises they found in the letter , which once used were as low , weak , begge●ly elements for a time ) the power of god , and godliness was much ●elt among them , and abode with , and upon them to the prevailing against the powers of the earth , and the overcomming the world it self , and satan the prince of it by the blood of the lamb , and the word of his testimony , not loving their lives to the death , and much fruit of the spirit , and of righteousness was brought forth to the glory and praise of god. but when synods and councels , doting doctors , infatuated ghostly-fathers , and such as admired their persons as they the persons of the apostles and primitive disciples , began to bundle together what they could get of the w●itings of such as were coaetaneous with christ and the apostles , and , without any such order from either christ or the apostles , to canonize what in their conceits might be useful to others , as they had found them , t is like , to be to themselves , into a rule or canon , and stated them into a common standard for all to have their sole recourse to in soul-cases . and matters of christian faith and holy life , and so to adore the dead letters of those holy living men , and to run a whoring after some remnants of writings that dropt from them then , in the whole world now called christendome instead of an apostolical spouse of christ , as christians were at first , presented a chaste virgin to himself by them , there stands up an apostatical strumpet that had the letter and good words written there , but neither the life of god , nor the word of life therein testified to , that ( according to the nature of error which is ever multiplying ) degenerated more and more into the dark , till at last being gone from the word , spirit , light and life within to the outward letter that relates of it , they ran into the wildernes of their own numberless senses upon it , so that they lost the letter also , and fell from it into tradition , and a thousand old wives fables , and though it is good and acknowledged so to be ( so far as it is ) that the protestants have marched from rome under the conduct of the le●ter , yet for all they are come back from the blinde screel scrawls of the popish scribes for their smoaky imaginations to a pretensive profession of , and prate pr● scripturis for the scriptures , unless they march on according to the conduct of the scriptures till they come into the light and spirit , which they point to , and by a dotage upon the scriptures ye would run from , they are not so much , as come yet to the scriptures , nor to conform to that counsel of the prophets and apostles given in it , but are yet erring from the scriptures , even in and by their very eager scriblings for it as the only most perfect rule , and from the only rule of faith , and way to life , the letter is as loud for ( but that they are dull of hearing as they in their naked writings are loud for the naked letter it self . and so it comes to pass that as israel was of old who was as laborious in the letter , & busie about the bible and strict for his scripture-standard , as our israel * for the self-same , which yet they confess too is abolished as to the litteral observation of it , with the appendix of a few of stories and letters , and revelations of those holy men next to christs time , who by the spirit wrote much more then is there own'd as their standard ; i say , as the old israel proved as to god an empty vine , hos. . bringing forth fruit only to himself , so is our national gospel israel an empty vine , fruitful to themselves in temporals , and ( in su● gerere ) in such spiritual also as their religion lyes in , viz. in empty forms of fastings , prayings , pra●sings , preachings , singings of davids psalms with doegs spirit . text , applauding treatises , talkings for tithes , multiplyings of ministers of the old testament not of the spirit , but of the letter , that may labour soundly to the blowing out if they cou●d tell how ) of the qua. extolled light , magnifyings of the maintenance for such ministers as maintain themselvs out of augmentations by the impropriations of kings , bishops , deans & chapters lands , tenths , first fruits , and such levitically legal ●molumenis far better than they are able to maintain either the true internal eternal gospel , which they are utterly ign●rant of , or their own external gospel either against the qu. who maintain the true : but utterly as fruitles to god , as full of leaves and broad shews , wherein they flourish ; yea as barren as the figtree that god came three years together seeking fruit from , and finding none , for which the word had long since gone forth effectually from the lord ( but that intercession is yet made for it by the dresser of the vineyard , who digs and dungs it in hopes of somewhat , but hath yet from it as small thanks for his great pains , as the unskilful dressers ( not to say devourers ) of it have great thanks for their small pains ) cut it down , why cumbreth is the ground ? so what thou so pompously utterest i ▪ o. on behalf of the efficacy of the letter in this particular as the all-sufficient , all-accomplishing power of god in its self , and to us ward to salvation , and such like , is nothing so ; nor doth any one of all scriptures cited by thee in proof thereof evince any such thing , they all excepting that in tim. . which , as it may relate to an inward scripture thou yet searchest not , if intended of the outward , yet not without the light and spirit within , which said light and spirit , thou still excludest and damnest down as detestable , and no way needful to be so much as concurrent with the scripture toward salvation as is shewed above ) intend no other word or light then that which is uttered and shines within in the e●rt . iam. . . expresly speaks of the wording rafted there which is able to save the soul , which 〈…〉 ●innate word ( for it s there put , planted , and sowed as his seed by the lord himself ) some refuse and reject to walk by , whose condemnation it is , some receive it hear it , mix it with faith in it , beleeve in it to the salvation of the soul. in joh. . . christ speaks of the same , and not of any outward scripture , for by that word ( their word , is intended the word which they preached or held forth or testified to by their words in their preachings and writings as that which men were to come to hear and beleeve in , and do , till t●eir beleeving in which , though they sh●uld or do beleeve historically the outward declaration , as the papists do the litteral declaration at this day with their heart and confess it with their mouths , that the lord iesus was raised fr●m the dead , yet they perish and beleeve not on the name of god savingly or to salvation : which word is not the letter , nor their preachings , but that which the letter , and their oral preachings testified to , that it was nigh men in their hearts and mouths that they might hear and do it even the word of faith which they preached . compare ioh . . with rom . , . which word that they preached , was not their preachings or writings , or scriptures , but that which in their preachings and writings they called them to hear , which was not a word without , but the word nigh in the he●rt , between which words and writings of the preachers and writers of the scriptures , and the truth , faith , doctrine , light , gospel , holy matter , which they preached and wrote of , if our divines cou●d keep constant in distinguishing at all times , as they do sometime , they would come out of their conlusions , wherein they are found jumbling things on heaps without heed , into the clear understanding and comprehendings of the truth ( in their heads at least , whether it may have place in their hearts and lives or no ) that is , saving their being ashamed to own it from babes , and chusing rather to be ignorant then submit to be taught by them , so often told them by the qua. t ▪ d. sayes , it s evident the word spoken of rom. . . in the heart is the holy matters contained in the scriptures , the things contained there , pag. , . of his . pamph. rep. who doubts of that ? but are not the holy matters one thing , and the outward letters that write of those matters another ? the things written of , which the scripture sayes are in the heart , one thing , and the scriptures that write of those things another ? why then do you jumble these together as one in your blindly busie brains , which are so bewitcht that ye either cannot or will not own that from the qua. without crying out of them as deniers of the scriptures to be the word of god , which your very selves are forced to confess to the truth of ? for t.d. dances between within and without in the fore-named pages , as if he could not well tell where to be , nor what to say the word of faith they preached is ; himself denies not from col. . . which i urged , but that it was within the colossians , but yet because we say its within , a light within , he will needs say , [ and so he had need , or else he could not out word us ] it s the letter without also , the word spoken of in the heart , is meant , quoth he , of the holy matters contained , . declared of in the scriptures , which are , say we , the living word , light , gospel , &c. and yet in the same page the word spoken of is without , or it is the letter of the scriptures , quoth he , also , though at the beginning of the dispute upon that subject , when i told him wee denied the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the outward writing or letter written on paper with inke to be the word of god himself , p . pamp. he denied the same with me saying , you cannot beleeve us so simple surely as to affirm the scriptures in that sense to be the word of god , but we mean the matter contained in the writing , &c. and p. . when i said the scripture is not the word of god , for that is within , but the scripture is without , ●rging , rom. . the word is nigh thee in thy heart . you read not all , quoth he , t is in thy mouth too , so that it is without as well as within . rep. oh gross , what an absurdity is here , as if that which is in the mouth of a man were not within , but without him ? if t.d. should tell mee of a man , that is no monster that his teeth and tongue are in his mouth , and i should reply t is a mistake , for that which is in the mouth of a man is not within , but without him t.d. would suppose me to be some monstrous simpleton and a doer of the said man no little wrong in making no less then a monster of him , by saying his teeth , and his tongue are all ad extra without him , when they are no otherwise then other mens are , al orderly within his mouth ; but i must take this of his , who sayes the word is said to be without a man while it i● said to be in his mouth , for the voice of wisdome from him , or else the qua. folly will not be manifested to all men by it , but much more of his own then all theirs amounts to : and so as wise as he is in his own generation byond the children of light , i shall think my think of this to my self , and to let it pass with no more then this notice by the way to the reader , . that as the word is in the heart shewing good and evil thoughts , there searching and separating between the precious and the vile , which is the work of the word and mouth of god there , ier. . . so it is in the mouth distinguishing between the good and evil words there , in the particular persons in whose mouthes it s planted , and put for that purpose first according to the promise , isa. . ult . my word which i have put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth , nor of the mouth of thy seeds seed for ever , from out of the mouth of which seed of god the righteous race , which are mostly babes and sucklings to the wise and dispute●s of this world , psal. . . mat. . . it is secondarily to go forth , as the strength of the lords ordaining against the enemy in the latter dayes , jer. . . . that it is no news to me now that t.d. sayes in the mouth is without , which was somewhat strange to me at first , till i was acquainted with his quaint and coyn'd kinde of distinctions and sinister senses , and many unc●uth meanings , that he puts upon scripture phrases wherewith to blinde people from being begotten into true wisdome by that which he calls the qua. folly , for t is his usual manner of expounding , and the ordinary meaning that he gives to these two terms ( in ) and ( out ) to say by ( within ) is meant ( without ) and by [ without ] [ within ] for as he counts the righteousness of c●rists person without us to be in us to our justification whilst not inherent in us , but in him only . so the righteousness wrought and fulfilled in us by his power and spirit not to be in us , but without in his person only ; for rom. . . in us [ quoth he ] imports not in out persons , but in christ , p. . . pamph. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which he thought had been 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , luke . . by in you , in among you without , p. . . pamph. and so i.o. will have to be expounded in that place to avoid the dint of that doctrine of the qua who tell of a kingdome and righteousness within men , that are not in it , which he confesses is used but in one more place in all the new testament ( as he calls the new letter of it ) viz. matth. . . and there it s used for the inside of a vessel , cup , or platter by christ , saying to the blinde pharisees , first cleanse the inside that the outsi●e may be clean also ; yet in luke . it seems , quoth he , to be used in the same sense as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so making it thus the kingdom of god , ad vos pervenis , is come to you , & a t.d. does ] within in effect to signifie without , ex. . . . and so in the place in hand in the mouth is without , quoth t. d. which fine new-fangled way of respondency to an opponent urging otherwise an irresistible truth , i should never have learnt , had i not met with these two sophistical shufflers , howbeit now i h●ve learnt their wonted way of winding away from plain truth , i shall t●e●eby learn at least to avoid it , turn from it , and pass away , but shall never learn how to walk in it , it is so crooked , unless i mean to leave the good way of uprightness to walk in the wayes of darkness . now as to i.o. though often he puts a difference between the writing and the doctrine , and sayes the scriptura formaliter , or litera scripta is one thing , and the materia or veritas scripta is another , yet rather then he will give the question to the qua. who care not whether he doth or no , which question as is shewed above , he is not ashamed basely to beg , he will distemper and conjumble all that together again into one chaos or lump of confusion , which he had once orderly set asunder , and therefore drives on in gross , without dividing between the scripture , writing , letter , or text , and the word , doctrine , light , or truth that 's written of , and earnestly endeavouring to blend all these into one . and though for haste jumbling and posting on he gets many a stumble by the way , whereby he layes himself on the ground , yet up again he gets , and on he goes , though haltingly , never heeding how he interfears , nor feels how he often hacks and cuts one leg against the other , hoping that so long as he stands not still , nor gives quite out , nor lyes flat , he rids ground as well while he stumbles on , as when he seems to slide away more smoothly ; but his blinde blundering● , in which he thinks he posts on unseen , are noted and seen by such as are not far behinde him , who finde him full of fl●ws , altering often where he himself supposes his work is most firm ; and what ever he thinks of it himself , yet to every understanding reader he little les● then gives the cause in effect , not onely in other places ag●inst his will and unawares to himse●f , but also in p. . where is a passage that while it here presents it self to me , i must take notice of , lest i let it pass altogether , and finde not a fitter place hereafter to observe it in j ▪ o. it is the writing ( quoth he it self it now supplies the roome and place of the persons , in , and by whom god originally spake to men : as were the persons speaking of old , so are the writings now ; it was the word sp●ken that was to be beleeved yet ( as spoken by them from god , and it s now the word written that is to bee beleeved yet ( as written ) by the command and appointment of god. rep. all this i grant to be very true , but tending to the overturning of j.os. own cause , and purpose in it , which is to prove the scripture or writing to be the word of god , and to the confirming of the qua. cause , who against him deny that assertion ; for the word spoken and written , even , as spoken and written , by gods appointment is that which we say is still within the hearts of men , though witnessed to without in the ministry of prophets and apostles preaching and writing of it , as that in which they were to beleeve , in which beleeving according to the voyces and scriptures of holy men calling them thereto and beleeved by them they thenceforth , and not before , were said to beleeve on the name of god , through which beleeving in it they had life : but what 's this to evince the writing to be that word ●hus spoken , thus written of , which was another thing , which was as truly be●eeved in to life , before it was written of , as after ? oh , quoth j.o. as were the persons speaking of old , so are the writings now . true whence in his own words i argue back ( ad hominem ) on him thus , as were the persons speaking the word of god old , so are the writings now . bu● not the persons preaching , no nor yet their preachings and speakings were the wo●● of god they preached and spake of , but only means , by which men were brought to beleeve in the word of god : what 's paul , what 's apollos , but ministers by whom ye beleeved ? cor. . . therefore the writings now are not the word of god written of , but only an outward means by which men are brought to beleeve in another thing then the ●ritings for life , even in the word of faith nigh in their own hearts which the prophets and apostles preached and wrote of , that i● order to life men should beleeve in it . i.o. and now as to that text , heb. . . which thou citest also p. . reciting the words of it ; which are these , the word of god is quick and powerful , or , as thou there , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , living and effectual , sharper than any two-edged sw●rd piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit , and of the joynts and marrow , and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart . rep. i cannot but stand almost astonished at thy stupidity in expounding that text of scripture of the text of scripture , and of that terme there the word of god ) of the book called the bible , which the business of thy book is mostly about , sith the efficacy and power of the word here spoken of is far beyond that of the letter or scripture it self the inefficacy and weakness of which i have shewed above ( specially abstract from the spirit and light within , in which way thou asserts the sufficiency of it , witness thy own words above rehearsed ) as to any such mighty matters as are here mentioned . is the letter the scripture sharper then any two-edged sword to divide asund●r soul and spirit &c. a diver into , a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart ? what thinkest thou by the two-edged sharp sword that goes out of his mouth , that rides the white horse with his vesture dipt in blood , and the armies in heaven following ( not in lawn sleeves , sarcenet scarffs , sattanical go●ns , canonical coats , scarlet formalities , white surplices , velvet , plush black gippoes , and such like scholastick superfluities ) but in fine linnen white and clean , i.e. the righteousness of the saints , rev. . . , , , , , , . is it the letter , or is it the sword of the spirit a prime part of that armour of god , armour of light intimated , rom. . . eph. . . . which is the word of god , and the sharp soul-searching , heart-piercing , living , life-giving word that is here spoken of ? for it s the spirit that quickneth , the letter killeth and is dead ; the sword of the spirit , is the spirit or words of christs mouth , which he speaks , which are spirit and life , not le●ser , which word of christ , is the word of god also , as christ himself the lord , that spirit is , cor. . which was in the beginning before letter was , and was with god , and was god , for the three that bear witness in heaven the father , word , and spiri● are one , and all three spirit and light , and the letter is none of them all , and these without the letter are effectual , and wer● so before it , though t.d. sayes the spirit was not wont to be effectual without the letter , p. . of his . pamph. but the letter and its revelation is not sufficient and omnibus numeris absolute , &c. as j.o. darkly divines , to effect and perfect all things as to gods glory and our salvation of it self , so that there 's no need at all of any other witness or revelation by the spirit and light within . t.d. indeed ( if any , save such as are bewitcht and befooled already , would be such fools as to follow his foolish fancy ) would ( and what parish preachers do not the like ? ) make men beleeve by his non-sensical blinde wayes of proving it , as if it were so at lea●t ( and that is a little more moderate , then i.os. boundless elevation of the letter , which hee makes little less than all in all that the spirit was not wont to be effectual without the letter , in proof of which his false assertion ●e urges , rom. . . the same text that i.o. wrests the same way ; faith , which is the spirits work ( quoth he in the forenamed page ) comes by hearing , hearing by the word of god ; which terme the word of god there . t.d. and i.o. and their adjutants generally take to be the scripture text , though if any measure of right reason did rule in them they might see in the same chapter that the word of faith , by which it comes , is that they preached to be brought nigh in mens hearts and mo●ths by god himself , that there they might both hear and do it , deut. . . but so far is his position from having any truth in it , as much as he stands up ag●inst r.h. who justly withstands him in it , that if his own eyes were but half open , he could not but see the flat falsehood of it , yea it is so palpable that before all the world i will here lay down the very contrary as the truth , viz ▪ the spirit was wont to be effectual without the letter : and why he should lose any of his authority , power and efficacy by mens writings as they were moved by him , he is either wiser then i that can tell , or else very fond in asserting what he can tell no reason for : and that the spirit , or sword of the spirit , which is the word of god ( whether we understand it of christ himself that spirit , cor. . that quickning spirit , cor. . . who is called the word of god , rev. . . or the spirit of god and christ , which is so called also , eph. . . ) was wont to be effectual without the letter of old , before there was any letter for him to work by , is so clear , that t were to light a candle to see the sun by to go about to prove it ; yea as i.o. sayes in a case that is clear ( i mean clear contrary to what he asserts in it ) ex. . s. . so say i in this , ad solem caecuti●● necesse est , &c. he must be so blinde as not to see the sun when it shines upon him , that is ignorant of it , or assents not to it ; since as r.h. told him then it was so , so i tell him here over again in r.h. his words , with the addition of the long tract of time wherein t was wont to be so ; the sword of the spirit is the word of god , which was effectual [ two thousand years ] before the letter was . and this i the rather assert against t.d. here in this place because he is so ignorant as to tax r.h. there for usual speaking non-sense , and for underst●nding non-sense as well or better then good sense , in that when t.d. said , the spirit was not wont to be effectual without the letter . r h. repeats him , saying thus , the sword of the spirit is ineffectual without the letter which in effect is all one [ if t.ds. eyes were well open to see clearly what the spirit is , and what the letter ] and then replies thus , the sword of the spirit is the word of god , which was effectual before the letter was . now i demand of thee t.d. . where is any non-sense r.h. spake , whose words i here speak after him , that i may clear them from thy unjust cen●●re of non-sense ; and if r.h. understood any non-sense , as thou sayest he did , then that must import that thy self with whom he was then in discourse hadst spoken some , for he could not understand that non-sense from thee which thou never speakest : out of thy own mouth then at least thou art condemned for speaking some non-sense , if a man were minded to prosecute thee for it , for habemus ret●● conficentem , we have it from thy self if it were so ; but though thou tacitly taxest thy self with non-sense , yet i shall do thee that right this once as to clear and exuse thee from thy own false self-accusation , for in truth both what thou spakest , and what r.h. spake was all good sense , as to the intelligibleness of the phrases , unless thou account every sentence to be non-sense that is false as to the matter propounded in it , as in a sense thou mayest , there being no sense nor reason for it that any man should affirm and tell an untruth , and then i confess thou spakest non-sense , and r.h. good sense , sith his saying was true , and thine was false . for the sword of the spirit which is the word of god , and the spirit it self , and not the letter , as thou who art somewhat low and implicite , not very loud , me thinks , nor express as if thou durst not for shame speak out thy minde about it seemest to make it , was wont to be effectual without , and was effectual before the letter was . but here 's indeed the very knot of the business , thou deemest r.h. to utter non-sense , in not being so non-sensical , as , with t.d. i.o. and their chronies to interpret the sword of the spirit there called the word of god of the outward letter or scripture , that is the thing will not down with t.d. without straining at it as a peece of non-sense to assert the sword of the spirit not to be the letter , witness t.ds. words of r ▪ h. t.d. as for what he says , that the sword of the spirit is the word of god , if he meant like a man in his oppositions , he must mean christ , who but once is called the word of god , rev. . . and christ cannot be intended , eph. . because he is not the sword of the spirit , but the spirit his sword rather ; for by the spirit he works in the hearts of men , and therefore , gen. . . he sayes , my spirit shall not alwayes strive with man , which is meant of the holy ghost , as will appear by comparing it with act. . . where stephen tells the jews , ye do alwayes resist the holy ghost , christ by the common operations of his spirit strives with men , and by the special operations thereof pre●ails , with them . rep. in this parcel is more truth granted to the qua. then t.d. himself understands so to be , or will ever stand under the force of , when made use of by them against himself , for he sayes the spirit is christs sword by which according to g●n . . . act. . . he works operates [ in ] men [ mark his words ] and is said to strive with them that alwayes resist him , even ( in ) themselves . i could never yet get it granted from t.d. or any other contenders against the truth in this point , that christ had a spirit of his in men , by the operations of which he is said in those two texts to strive with them [ n themselves ] for howbeit its the common doctrine laid down positively by themselves unawares many times , yet when they meet with qua. in verbal discourses , who urge these two self same texts , and that in pet. . , , . by the which spirit christ preached to spirits in prison , which were disobedient in the dayes of noah , &c. and that ioh. . , , , . concerning the spirits convincing the world of sin , &c. in themselves ; and that ioh. . , , . of christ the light coming into the world , i.e. the word which is in mens hearts , there condemning the evil deeds , even in the dark cells of wicked mens own consciences , which light is sent not to condemn , but ( unless men love the darkness more then it ) in order to their salvation , and that they might be saved by beleeving in it , vers . , . and that text also , ioh. . . concerning the tru● light , which is christ , enlightning every man in the world ; all which places , and many more are parallel together in this point , among all the several sorts of shifts whereby to shuffle of the sound doctrine of the qua. this is most commonly made use of viz. that the strivings and shinings of christ by his light and spirit with and unto the sons of men [ which they dare not deny neither to be universal , and yet do own ten parts to one of the world too to be at this day without any true outward gospel ministry or traditions by by men or letter of scripture ; o rotas , where 's the beginning and end of these mens rounds ? ] are not by any light or spirit of his that is in them , for that measure of his light and spirit within wee call men to , they name natural , imaginary , figment , fanaticisme , enthusiasme , and , ironically , that infallible doctor , qualitas nescio quae divina seu anima mundi omnibus mista 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , merae tenebrae , caecitas , nes●io quid , ni●il , nothing and much more as i.o. pleases , but by a letter and ministers of the letter without them only ; he strives and shines by his spirit , say they , and reproves and convi●ces the world that resist , but t was of old by the outward ministry of noah only a preacher of righteousness , t is since by the scripture and ministers of it that preach outwardly out of it ( though perhaps not one of an hundred in the world ever read it , or heard it preacht on ) but not by any measure of his spirit , or immediate workings of any light or spirit of his within the hearts of the whole race of wicked ones ; these things are not common to all , nequé enim spiritus christi [ quoth i.o. ex. . s. . ] esse potest cum sit quid omnibus sommane , this light the qua. talk of cannot be christs spirit , sith they make it a thing common to all . and t ▪ d. p. . pamph. you speak of a light that every man hath in all ages and generations . and p. . . g.w. saying , christ was given a light to the nations . t.d. denies that the gentiles had been at all enlightned by christ , unles you mean as god , quoth he , and say i , what should we mean else ? is not christ god , and his light the light of god , and his spirit and word , the spirit and word of god before christs coming ? but in the parcel above , we have it under t.ds. own hand , what need we say more , or use more witness nnless , the false witnesses agreed better together then they do within themselves , and with each other , for vve can either turn each of them to himself , or one of them over to another vvellnigh at any time for an ansvver , that the spirit is christs sword , and by it hee works in the hearts of men , i.e. all men , in proof of vvhich , gen. . . act. . . are urged by t.d. himself , vvhich grant of his vve shall take and lay up against the time to come , that if he deny christ henceforth to have a witness , a spirit , a light of his in the hearts of all men vve may wound him vvith his ovvn weapon , and slay him vvith his ovvn sword , vvho yet vvhether the qua. meddle more vvith him yea or day , vvill , as to that life he novv live , vv●ich is partly in wickedness and partly in his ovvn foolish wisdome and unrighteous righteousnesse , be slain at last vvith that two-edged sword i am to return to talk of vvith himself and i.o. vvho are to dye to vvhat they novv are by the dint of it before they ever knovv the lord , or that gospel of his they both fight against , and then they shall learn that sword of christs mouth , and sword of the spirit to be the light and spirit within , aud not the letter they are so loud for , vvhich letter yet as an instrument or sword in our hands , vvho are acted against them by the spirit , vvill furnish us sufficiently to slay them as to their silly senses on it , effectually enough in all reason and conscience . and novv vvhereas t.d. dreams that by r.h. his saying that the sword of the spirit is the word of god , if he mean like a man in his oppositions he must mean christ himself , who cannot be intended , eph. . sith he is not the spirits sword but the spirit his ; and so thinks he hath it cock-sure , that since t is not christ himself it must be the letter that is there called the sword of the spirit , and the word of god , as if there vvere no third to be assigned as in opposition to the letter : for this is his argument in form , viz. the sword of the spirit , is either christ or the letter , not any third , but t is not christ , therefore it must be the letter . reply . what if i tell him by the sword of the spirit there called the word of god , one may mean a third , as paul doth in that place , that is neither christ himself , whose sword his spirit is , nor yet the letter which undoubtedly is not it , and yet mean like a man too ? yea verily be means not like a spiritual man , but smells lik a minister of the letter , and not of the spirit that means it of the letter , and not of the spirit it self , for spirit it is , as the letter is not , and the word of god , whether understood of the lord himself , that spirit , cor. . , . which is called the word of god , rev. . or of the spirit of the lord , cor. . , , . which is also the word of the lord , and two-edged sword that goes out of christs mouth , called elsewhere the rod of his power , the rod of his mouth , the breath of his lips , the spirit and life , joh. . . the spirit of his mouth , isa. . and brightness of his coming , with which he smites nations , rebukes for the meek , consumes and destroyes the wicked man of sin within , first in his saints , and throw them as vessels that bear his name , without , in myriads of whom hee is now beheld coming to that work , iude . as blinde as ye are , neither to behold , nor beleeve it . and that the sword of the spirit is not the scripture or letter is evident , for it is something , even a word and sword , that was before the letter , which only relates of it , and therefore the letter is not it , unless a man will be so unmanly as to say the scripture or letter was before the letter was , which were nonsense with a witness . again if the letter be the sword of the spirit , and word of god , then there was two thousand years , wherein the●e was none of the sword of the spirit or vvord of god that paul there speaks of , and a long time together , wherein christ and the spirit had no sword which is most gross , absurd and sottish to assert , yet is not t.d. alone found in it , but i.o. also in the same [ for these two are seldome otherwise , if not contradicting , then concurring with each other in the same folly who p. . sayes thus of the text ( unless he intend it of the truth it self ] the spirit of truth , joh. . and gods word is truth abstract from the text , which only tells of it , which spirit and which vvord of truth was before the text , and is where his text is not , and then i acquit him , though by the word of truth he usually intends the text and scriptures of it ) as the t●xt stands now pointed and asserted , neither jews nor socinians shall be able to relieve themselves from the sword of truth therein : if by therein hee means the truth declared only , i own it the sword , for the vvord , which is spirit is a sword , but if the text or scripture , that is no other then the scabbard . besides the letter , the bible ye bawl for , is too blunt a business to cut so close , and search so the quick into the secrets of the heart , thoughts , soul , spirit of men as the two-edged sword we are yet talking about doth , and too blinde a business to be denominated , as the vvord of god spoken of eph. . heb. . , . is , a discerner of the intents of the heart before which there is no creature that is not manifest unto the eyes of which , as that which we have mainly to do with , all things , are naked and bare : and howbeit i.o. as aforesaid is so dark , as p. . to tell us of its diving into the hearts , consciences , and secret recesses of mens mindes there judging and determining upon them , terrifying , sentencing them in themselves , &c. yet he wofully erres to ascribe that to the scripture or letter , which is peculiar only to the light and spirit that only searches the deep things of both god and men , and satan ; and which reveals and manifests all things , and to which all is manifested and revealed : and howbeit he appropriates this all along to the scripture and letter , which he means all along by the vvord of god , yet if he did but well understand himself , he not far off ascribes the same to the light , that both we and the scriptures speak of , which yet he will advance no higher then to term it natural & the voice of god in nature , &c. for as p. , , , . he tells how god by that hath placed a thing called self-judgement in us in reference to his own over us , and reveals himselfes the sons of men , and much to the like tune ; and p. : sayes it is by the light in the scriptures ( which is , say i , that which the scripture testifies of that t is in the heart ) by which the scripture dives into the ●earts , and there determines , judges in the majesty and authority of god , yet the crown still is stated on the head of the scripture by him , and that light it came from in holy men , which is the same , a small measure of which is in all mens hearts and consciences , whose external subordinate instrument sometimes the letter is , is made by him , but the subordinate instrument of the letter , by which , quoth he , the letter 〈◊〉 and doth this and that , and effects and perfects ; all which yet to go round again ) contradicts his own excludings , in the other fore-cited places of his book , of the spirit and light within from bring needful , or any way concurrent with the letter , but rather as fi●●icious and detestable . so th● letter is the supream judge only most perfect rule , and ruler of all , and transacter of all still as to mans salvation with i.o. who little heeds how the revelation made by the light in the conscience is of an unexpresiably larger extent then the manifestation of things is that is , made by the letter that came from it , for the naked letter , or the light by it only manifests d● j●re the right of matters what is to be done , what not , what is good , what evill ; the moral law shews the moral good that is to be acted , the moral evil that is to be declined , or else no life but cursing , but the naked ligh● without the letter , that was within mens hearts , as it now is , before the letter was , discov●rs not on●y as the letter doth , de jure , the moral good and evil , as i.o. himself confesses , and moral or evangelical obedience and righteousness that is the substance of that legal and ceremonies that stood in typical transactions and ou●side-observations ●or a time , but also over and above searches the heart , and shews to every man , de facto , what is , and is not done of the will of god de jure revealed , and accordingly accuseth or excuseth , justifieth or condemmeth in the majesty and authority of god , so that its particular sentencing of every man either to life or death , blessing or cursing , acceptation or rej●ction stands ratified , inalterably in the court of heaven ; yea hereby christ shews every one , as hee did the woman of samaria , all that ever she did , and what they do , and are , think or speak , and answerably either acquits or accuses , as ioh. . as our hearts condemn us or not by that of god in them , so are we justified or condemned , have boldness or bash●●●ness before the tribunal of heaven , for whose sins the light remits are remitted , and whose sm●●s is retaines are retained , and the ministers of the light do by it judge the world that lyes in wickedness , and justifie the righteous , and we know their judgement is true , and their sentence sure , and shall stand in fore d●i as it doth in far● conscien●ia . but the letter is too too weak an engine to enter here , and too short a sword to divide so distinctly within , as the spirit and law of the spirit of life doth , which is the light , the sword of the spirit , the word of god. which titles i say still against t.d. and i.o. also are not to be all attributed , much less ( as they are by them often ) appropriated to the letter of the scripture , but are to be denominated only of christ or his spirit , either of which a man may mean as in opposition to the letter , t.ds. conceits to the contrary notwithstanding , and yet mean like a man and a minister also ; for as christ , whose name is the word of god , is that spirit , & sword of the father , who is also a spirit , with which he will wound and rule the wicked unruly nations ; to the spirit of both the father and the son or word , which is one spirit with them ( for these three are one , joh. . ) is that sword that goeth out of his mou●h to the consuming of that wicked enemy , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that sits , as god , in his temple both within and without , thess. . and both are the armour of god , of righteousness , of light , which we are bid , and and said to put on , rom. . cor. . eph. . and because it may seem such non-sense to t.d. to say the sword of the spirit is the spirit it self , and not another outward instrument of a letter , which yet we know the spirit can use too when he pleases , though his operations are most effectual when he is heeded in his immediate workings within the heart ; for t.d. i wot judges the phrase improper to call the spirit it self the sword of the spirit , and that that manner of speech must needs import another thing : let me ask thee , why so t.d. must it needs import another thing then the spirit to say the sword of the spirit ? why must it be improper so to say ? hadst thou had thy eyes in thy head , and thy wits well about thee when thou busiedst thy self about that text , thou wouldest have seen the spirit and paul by it , whom thou wilt not dare to charge with speaking n●●-sense , though thou chargest r.h. for the same , speak in the same way of the who●e celestial panoply , as ye use to ca●l it : is not the brestplate of righteou●sness , shi●ld of faith , preparation of the gospel of peace , faith , righte●usness , and the gospel of peace it self in the verses next above , and the armor of light , the light it self , rom. ? why then may not the sword of the spirit be meant of the spirit it self , and yet a man mean like a man , and not mean non-sense , as thou wouldest seem to make r.h. to do in so meaning ? and now to i.o. again about the text heb. . . in which there remains one clause more , which , if he did not ad solem caecutire , shut his eyes against the sun , me thinks hee could not possibly relate to the letter , and that is this epethite of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quick or living , and that so uncontroleablely , as he doth , even to blinde and obstinate persisting in it , for ex. . s. . where hee infers the qua. urging against his letters being the only most perfect rule on the behalf of the spirit ▪ hee sayes thus : j oj. ob scriptu●a est litera mortua spiritus vivificat , quis literae mortua nisi ips● fi● mortuus adhaerere velit ? the scripture is a dead letter , it s the spirit that quickneth : who but he that 's dead himself will look for life from a dead letter ? rep. falsissima est ista assertio , scriptura est verbam dei quod vivum est & efficax , neque uspiam litera esse mortua dicitur , occidit quidem , sed ido viva est . that is a most false assertion ; the scripture is that word of god which is living and powerful , heb. . . neither is the letter any where at all said to bee dead . reply . verumne ? itane ? ocyus adsit huc aliquis ; is it so i.o. that the letter is no where called dead ? what no where ? nec clam ? nec cum scrobe ? nusquam ? hic tamen infodiam : some honest body come hither a little , and let us dig up and dive a little deeper into i.os. own divinity doings to see if wee cannot finde it so called there by his own self , if that be the same i.o. [ as no doubt it is ] that wrote the two english treatises and the blinde latine theses about scriptures ; in his own book for the bible , which may be cogent to him however , in the . page thereof ( vici , vidi ipse libelle ) i finde i.o. himself saying thus of the letter , yea and of the word too , and that is more i dare say then any qua. dare say , that they are both dead without the spirit ; as living , perfect , in all respects efficacious to accomplish all as the scripture was , ex. . s. , . so that there is no need of any other revelation by the spirit and light within , but those all are uncertain , vain , useless , detestable , &c. now t is [ without the spirit ] a dead letter , yea the word is so too with i.o. as if the word of god and christ , which is spirit and life , was sometimes dis-joyned from the spirit : take it in his own terms then reader , lest thou think i wrong him all this while , the jews enjoyed the letter of the scripture as they do at this day , yea they receive it with the honour and veneration due to god. their possession of it is not accompanied * with the administration of the spirit without which , as we see in the instance of themselves * , the word * is a dead letter of no efficacy for the good of souls . they have the letter amongst them , as sometimes they had the ark in battel against the philistines , * for their further ruine . here needs no more illustration of this palpable contradiction ●h●t i.o. gives to himself , t were to suppose men that read his book to be idiots to shew it more to their sight then it shews it self , so with his own ( in oper● lang● obrepsit somnus ) i shall quit it here , but not acquit it quite till he acquits the truth he quarrels with : only as to his occidit quidem ideo viva est , the letter kills [ for this he cannot deny being the letters testimony of it self , only he concludes , as he is wont to do , the clean contrary way ] therefore its living ; i . deny his consequence , for many things are said to kill as dead instruments used by living agents , as a knife , a dagger , a sword , which when they have so done as in that subordinate way of an instrument , cannot quicken , though i own the letter as healable and honourable an instrument as any is in the hands of men , when they are used and moved to use it as an instrument in the hands of god ; yet as dead a thing as applied by the stealers of it in these times , as it was in the mouthes of the old theevish prophets , of whom god said , they shall not profit people at all , jer. . and as to i ▪ os. labouring to lick himself whole of this with his litera occidit quatenus litera legis est ab evangelio seperata , & quatenus à spiritu & ver● sensu voluntatis dei destituuntur , qui literae adhaerent , quae judaeorum conditio fuit contra quo● eo loci disputat apostolus : the letter kills , as 't is the letter of the law , and separate from the gospel , and as they are destitute of the spirit and true sense of gods will who adhere to the letter , which was the jews condition against whom the apostle there disputes . rep. i say , mutato nomine de te fabula , &c. the self-same is to be said of your selves against whom we dispute , since your condition is the same with that of the iews , if once ye would savingly come to see it ; for li●era legis , the letter of the law is but the old testament still , and not the gospel , and the new , which is spirit and life , and a life-giving light to them that according to the call thereof will take heed to the light for life ; and while you not taking heed to the light for life , adhere to the letter , so as yee doe when receiving it with veneration due to god , yee fight against the light and spirit within for the sake of it , of the spirit and true discerning of the minde and will of god declared in the letter , and revealed in the light ye are ignorant taliter , if not totaliter , and as uttely destitute , as were the iews . and now as to that text which remains yet with one more to bee touched on , viz. psal . . thy word is a light to my feet , and a lamp to my paths , which thou also appliest to the letter , as the light and lamp there spoken of , and upon that account from that , and many more as little to thy purpose , and as much to ours as that is , lettest out thy minde into a long peece of dark prate about the letters being the most glorious light in the world ( as if it were that in ioh. ▪ . which is not the letter , but the measure of the light come from christ into all mens consciences ) almost throughout the fourth chapter of thy first treatise . i must here have a little parley with thee about that , and the other places thou producest , which are all parallel with it against thy self , and so hasten on what i can towards an end , as one more grieved , sick and weary in my spirit to see thy confusions , then by the power of god upon me bearing me up under the ( else unsupportable ) burden of it i am in either body or spirit with confounding them . those other texts are , iob . they are of those that rebel against the light , they know not the way , nor abide in the paths thereof , psal. . , . the commandement of the lord is pure in lightning the eyes , psal. . . the entrance of thy words giveth light , prov. . . the commandement is a lamp , and the law is light . isa. . . the people that walked in darkness have seen a great light , they that dwell in the land and shadow of death upon them hath the light shined . hos. . . i have slain them with the words of my mouth , thy judgements are the light that goeth forth . matth. . . the people that sat in darkness saw great light , to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up . matth. . . ye are the light of the world , job . , . for every one that doth evil hateth the light , neither cometh to the light lest his deeds be reproved , but he that doth truth cometh to the light that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in god. . pet. . . a light shining in a dark place . reply . sure enough the man catalogized all these together out of his concordance the series wherin he hath set them learns us no less , for else he would at least have joyned isa. . and matth. together , one of which is but a citation of the other ; and it may evidently seem from his more concordantial than cordial consultations both here and elsewhere , that howbeit he set not all of them down ( hoc opus esset ) yet well-nigh by all places in his concordance where he findes these terms , word , and light , he incontinently concludes the scripture and letter to be meant , and so on that account as cloudily cotes as many of them , as he judges , as to number , may make a iury , and so hob-nob , as they say , without mattering much what they are , so they concord all in one in the bare naming of the words word or light , and mostly citing the chapter and verse , but seldome the truths that are told there ( as if he thought that most men would blindly and implicitly subscribe to his sentence from such a packet of texts trussed together , and never be at so much pains as to search them all ) he impannels them presently about his business , hoping they will all agree to give verdict for him , when as how sweet an harmony soever they have among themselves that way , where their verdict passes , yet they concord all in one to contradict him , ( saving i.os. strong confidence in them , such a joynt concurrence to the contrary have every one of these twelve texts of his own taking ; for though he subscribe them all to that his sophistical assertion , p. . . viz. the scripture , the word of god * is light , in proof that the letter is the light against such as deny it ( for none deny the word of god to be the light that i know of , but i ▪ o. himself , who jeers of the verbum insernum & lumen internum , as figmentum horrendum , ex. . s. . resomnino ficta , commentum erasse excogitatum , ex . s. . merae senebrae , caecitas , &c. ex. s. . ) so that where ever the reader findes him prosecuting the proof of it under that terme of , the word , saying , the word is the light , rule , foundation , and such like , he must be taken as intending the scripture , letter , text ) witness both title pages proscripturis , a vindication of the scriptures against the fanaticks to be the word of god , and of the purity and integrity of the hebrew and greek texts ) though i say they are all subscribed in vindication of the letter to be the light , yet there is not on them all that subscribes to i.os. sentence or judgement on them , but they all give their verdict another way , even for that which is light , and the light indeed ( as we deny it not , viz. the word , law , commandement , iudgements of god , and christs mouth , but not at all for the external text or letter of the scripture , which issue forth ad extra from the said word , law , commandement , iudgements , that are ad intra , a great deep , and known savingly to those only that wait on god in the light within . but to come to some examination of his texts , and of what testimony they give for him , beginning however with the first , and ranking the rest as i shall see occasion . the scripture is light , quoth he , those that reject it are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lights rebels , men r●sisting the authority that they cannot but bee convinced of . reply . that such as reject the scripture are to be rejected and det●sted , i freely grant , if by rejecting thou meanest such a rejection as is in detestation of them , in which wise thou rejectest the spirit and light within , and all the revelation made thereby , when of those means of coming to the knowledge of god , and to salvation thou sayest , ex. f. , . inania sunt ista principia cognitionis dei , inutilia , periculosa , à faniticir simulata , ideoque rejicienda ae decestanda , those are vain , utterly unprofitable , perillous wayes toward the knowlege of god and salvation , fanatick figments , and therefore to be rejected and abhorred ; and in which wise thou falsely accusest the qua. among others , as rejecters of the scriptures , when thou mis-callest them , ex. . s. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , haters of the scriptures , as if they bore some spleen , or such spite to the letter as ye do to the light and spirit , or more than to other writings , which yet we , for holy truth and doctrines sake declared in them , love and prize above any books , and honour one chapter of them as more worth than twenty of your printed preachments upon them : i say , he that so rejects the letter or scripture , as is above said , let him be rejected , and even anathema maranatha for me ; for otherwise there is a kinde of rejecting ( which the light is not liable to ) of the meer letter or scripture , that is not at all to be found fault with , much less to be rejected and detested , as that of those , who make waste paper of old printed sheets or leaves of the bibles , and use them as they do other scriptures or writings , as they please , about refusely occasions . but the qua. are not to be ranked among such ranke rejecters of it as the first . . that such as spitefully reject the scriptures are ( though they are not so called in that of iob ) rebellious against the light also may well bee owned , howbeit upon this account only , as the letter , truly transcribed that came from the light , and the light it came from are , though two things , yet so agreeing together in one , as to the same testimony they both bear to the same truth , that he cannot really and truly , whatever hee may seem to do , receive , own , and obey the one , who is found fighting , denying , rejecting , and rebelling against the other , whereupon as obedient and reverential , respectful , even to superstition , as i.o. would be judged to bee to the letter , which he and others receive as the jews do with the honour and veneration due to god , yet ( saving all these shews ) they are still rebels against the very letter , whilst so rebellious against the light as to reject it with that detestation that is due to nothing but sin it self , and the very devil ; for he that owns the letter aright , must own , come to , beleeve in , follow the light , that shines from christ , and shews the good , and the evil in his own , by the fall , darkned heart , defiled , blinded , and benighted conscience , sith the letter testistes of , and calleth men to this light : as he cannot be said to fulfill and live according to the letter , that lives besides the light it calls to , so cannot he be said not to fulfill , or to live beside the letter , who lives according to the light it came from . but not upon this account can he bee said to rebel against the light who rejects the letter , because the letter and light are one and the self-same thing , viz ▪ the letter the light , and the light the letter , as i.o. dreams , for howbeit that be his sense , yet assuredly neither is the letter the light , nor the light the letter , but they are two distinct things that are no more synonamous , or one in name then they are in their essential properties and proper natures , and that ( however in some generals , they may be one , and so omnia ' quia entia , sunt quid unum ) is in reality not at all . and lastly , in what sense soever such as reject the letter may be called lights rebels ( which is in no wise in respect of the letter and lights being individually the same yet ( as is said above ) they are in no wise so called in that of job , and if the light had been as much heeded by i.o. as the letter is lookt in by him without the light , which only leads into the true meaning of it ; yea if common reason had but ruled him , hee would have seen by the word light the letter is not intended ; for to let pass other considerations that might be as cogent in this case , when ever , or by whomsoever that history or book of job was written , whether in his dayes , or after , by himself , or any other , yet that chapter being a part of jobs speech to his friends , it must be spoken in his dayes , whom jerom on genesis , augustine , ambrose , philo , plato , and most antient fathers and writers , luther on gen. . observe to have lived long before moses , whom ye judge the first scripture-writer , carried israel out of egypt , and so consequently before any of your scripture or letter , which ye now call the light was written ; and that job should denominate the wicked of his dayes under the name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lights rebels , rebellious against the letter long before any letter was written ( unless his own book , which yet ( if in his days ) must be written after that was spoken ) is such a trim peece of teachment , and credible conceit as i could say more to , had i to do with another man , but to him i shall say no more but that which is his usual saying of what is at no hand to be beleeved , p. . credat apella . thus much of the first of i.os. texts . now as to the next that follow , viz. psal. . . psal. . . . prov . . i have said so much to some of them already above as may stand as a sufficient answer to the rest , viz. that by word , words , law , commandements , statutes , iudgements , testimonies , precepts , &c. in all those scriptu●es is intended not the scriptures themselves in which these things are declared of ; but the word , law , commandement written in the heart , and the iudgements ministred by the light on the evil deeds in the conscience , decla●ed of only in the letter , which letter bears no other respect or proportion toward that word or law which is the light , then the lantborn doth to the light that is contained in it , and displayes it self somwhat diaily thorow it , or the glas-window doth to the sun that shines & shews it self throw it , yet more obscurely then when it s immediately lookt upon in its native lu●●re ; for there 's a time wherein we see the sun through a glass darkly and christ through the vail , that is to say his fle●h , and the light and things of the spirit in the shadow of the scripture or letter , wherewith it is overcast , where the sun shines more immediately to the eye , and the vail of his flesh and letter , and carnal ordinance is rent , a more new and living way is consecrated thereby into the holy of holies it self , where more immediately , or face to face then before , whilst in a glass , beholding the glory of god , there is a more perfect transformation into the image of his glory , which is fulness of grace and truth ( a glory that the world owns not , but the saints saw in christ , joh. ● . ) even by the spirit of the lord , or the lord that spirit , cor. . ult . so i shall need to say no more to to those texts in this place ; nor yet to that , psal. . . which is of the same nature whereby the light and truth that david , if it were his psalm , desires god to send out , could not be intended the letter and text , for so much of that as he made use of for his own condition was sent out before , which was but little more then the five books of moses , perhaps joshua , judges , ruth and job ; and t is but folly to fancy that he prayed that more letter might be given out to guide him , who had so much of the light and spirit that by it hee wrote much of the letter himself ; or if he did pray for more letter to guide him then was , i know no more was granted him unless what psalms hee wrote himself , which the spirit mov'd him to write for the good of others , for that of samuel the seer is mostly of him , and those of nathan and gad , were so also . see chron. . . and if nathan and gad wrote any to bee davids guide , they are none nor of yours , being not in you bibles , and so that light and letter he prayed for , is not the letter yee have and talk for , nor doth the letter and text lead any to the holy hill of god , and his tabernacle , but to the light and truth it came from , which is it only , and not the letter , as ye have it , that came immediately from god , so only leads immedlately unto him . as to isa. . to which though thou writing them in the rank , wherein they stand in thy concordance , severest them by the interposition of a text in hosea between them , yet i must joyn mat. . . sith they both in the self-same termes relate to the self-same thing and time : i marvel not a little ; but that god is now proceeding according to his promise , isa. . . to do that marvellous thing , even that marvellous work & wonder , and turning the wisdom of the wise into foolishness , and bringing to naught the understanding of the prudent , i should much more marvel then i do to see a professed doctor in divinity residing at the well head of learning and religion dwell so deeply in the darkness , and in the region and shadow of death , as to interpret the term of ( light ) in those two texts of no other thing then the letter of the scripture . the words are these , the people , meaning the land of zebulun and nepthali , by the way of sea beyond iordan , &c. which sate in darkness saw great light , and to them that dwelt in the region and shadow death light is sprung up . rep. the juncture of time , of which this is spoken concerning the land of zebulun and nepthali , seeing great light , was when christ himself the light of the world came among them dwelling , at capernaum a chief city of those two tribes by the sea-coast , and shone ronnd about them in his own immediate ministry . the scriptures or letter which by the word , light , there is by our great text-man i.o. said to be intended , must be either those of the old testament , as ye speak , or of the new ; those of old could not be meant here , for if they had been that light , they could not have been said to have sate till now in darkness and shadow of death , neither could the light have been said , as it is here to have sprung up now so newly to them , for the outward scriptures of moses and the prophets was sprung up to that people of israel long before this time ; and those of the new , it could not possibly be● , for john the baptist and christ having written nothing at all that is extant in your bibles , though christ after this wrote something that is not there , and the apostles and evangelists having written nothing yet , for not one o them was called till after this , as appears by the verses following , not one jot or tittle of that was sprung up to them as yet , therefore what ever light it was ( and what it was is well enough known to the children of the light , though not to the children of darkness that despise , and wonder , and perish not beleeving the work that god is working in their own daye ) ●et this i can tell them , which is as much as is meet for them to know till they live up to what they know already , and as much as is needful to the case in hand that it was not the letter of the scriptures . and now i am so near that , mat. . . it is not amiss to step thither be● before i go back to hosea , where the words are , ye are the light of the world , which place i. o brings to prove the letter to be the light. rep. i should sooner by the half have urged , gen. . . god said , let there be light , and there was light to prove the letter to be the light ( for that hath a typical mystical reference to the true spiritual light , that inwardly inlighte●s every man that comes into the world , then that clause of christ to his disciples , yee are the light of the world , for that hath not the least tittle of tendency to such a thing , unless i.o. who is blinde enough in blending the writing and letter written of into one individium will now grow so gross in his confusions as to confound and thrust a third thing , viz. the men that wrote some of the scriptures , into one and the same individium with them , and so make a new kinde of trinity in unity and unity in trinity , which if he shall then ( letting pass that long tale of the doctrine of the trinity in seven or eight pages together , viz p. . to p. . in which he talks , as t.d. and most divines do , of he knows not whom , nor what , while he hates the light ) if i say i.o. shall fain such a new fangled trinity , as writers , writings , and word written of , and jumble them all three into one , then t is time to tell these trinitonians their bell ha● not mettle , nor the tune of a bell , but the tone of a kettle . but i.o. hath a saying i toucht on above whereby perhaps hee may think this unfavoury sound is salved ; it is the writing it self ( quoth hee p. . ) that now supplies the place and room of the persons in , and by whom god originally spake to men ; as were the persons speaking of old , so are the writings now . rep. therefore say i , as the outward persons of the men , which i.o. reckons on were not the word of god , so neither were , nor are their writhings the word of god ( ad hominem . ) ob. but may he say the persons of the discip●es are here called the light of the world . rep. as vessels that bore the name , word , truth , or light of god to the world by the figure or common metonymy , as i said above , whereby the thing containing is called by the name of that that is contained in it or held forth by it , which yet either as to name and thing it really and properly is not , i can allow i.o. his denomination of the apostles by that name of a light in such wise as commonly by the said figure , but not properly , the lan●horn ( in sensu composi●o ) together with the light shining in it is termed the light , which lanthorn of it self is so far from being ( abstractively from the revelation made in it by the light within it ) a light of it self , that its a dark body that can neither shew any thing else , nor bee seen it self , without it bee manifested by something else that is truly light. but all this will lend i.o. as little help as none at all in his lame cause , who hath entred the lists with qua. before the world to vindicate the word of god and the light to be the proper name and nature of the letter , to evince it against them as to name and thing so to be , p. . of his epist. and p. , . that the scripture both is so , and is so called [ or else it properly could not ] as having the very nature and properties of light , and ex. . s. . whos 's dealing with the qua. is de scripturae nomine proprio , viz. titulo illo glorioso verbo deo , quod nomen sibi vendicat : about that proper name of the scripture , to wit , the glorious title the word of god , which name it challengeth to it self , and ex. . s. , . who sayes that revelation the scripture , that is abstractively considered of it self , and from the light and spirit the qua. say is necessary , is so omnibus numeris absoluta , perfecta , ut nihil opus sit , &c. so every way absolute and perfect , and accomplishing all things as a rule or guide , as who should say the lanthorn is such a sure and sufficient guide of it self in the night , that there is not any need at all of any other light , the naked lanthorn is a revelation , and will do well enough alone , so that there is no need at all of any other direction to know god to salvation by nor of the spirit , and light within , which is superfluous , vain , useless and d●●estable . i.o. is never the nearer as to his cause for all that which i can afford to allow him as abovesaid . moreover if men made after gods image , and truly partaking of the divine nature , and begotten by the light and living word of truth from death and darkness into a real union with it self by receiving with meekness 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the innate ingrafted word , ●am . . . by which they become incorporated , and as it were transubstantiated into one seed with it self . having the image and glory of god seen upon them , and shining in , and through them before the world men , & before whom let your light shine , faith christ , mat. . . is. . , , , &c. cor. . ult i say , if such men may be stiled the light of the world , as iohn baptist was stiled by christ a burning and shining light , joh. , then whom yet christ had a greater witnes● ; wil i.o. therefore prefer the dea● copies of the writings of those living men , who wrote from the life , light , and spirit of god moving , before , or at least into an equality with the holy men , who under god were the authors of those writings , as they were at first , which now are but the fallible ●andyworks of , by his own confession , but meer fallible transcribers ? or if he will , will any wise men of god become so foolish with him ? i trow not , in as much as the work-man is more glorious than the work that issues either originally from , or but subordinately through his own hands , the writer more honourable than his meer writing , as heb. . , . hee who hath builded the house , hath more honour than the house ; for as every outward writing or letter , yee now have the use of , was written by some man , as every such house is built by some man , but he of whom are all things , and he that originally built all things is god indeed : yet me thinks i sent not only i.o. but t.d. also , who is so a k●n to him , ( that in most matters here hee prosecues the same point ) unless where he contradicts him ) and hobbles upon the same notions , enthroning the scriptures or outward letter very high above the church , whose children it immediately was pend by the hands of , and whose meer outward engine , the outward letter is , insomuch that i.o. makes it not only dearer to god then the whole world besides , p. . but also p. . the very darling of god so that his church , whose servant the letter is , and for whose sake written , is made by him but some subservant to hold out the honour of the letter that it may bee the more conspicuous , rather then to let her own light , image , grace , glory , which is that of god , isa. . , . shine out before man the duty t is , quoth he , almost the whole of the church to hold up that some , time ; and when wee say the church is a pillar and ground of truth from tim. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which words pillar and ground should not bee taken for the supporter or foundation , nor inholder of truth in sensu architectonico , which t.d. denies , ●e not dispute . see p. . see p. . but grant him his sensum forensem , or foreign sense of it , in which i.o. also , who sayes absurdly however that these words pillar and ground may in good coherence of speech refer to the words following , viz. the mystery of godliness , as well as to the church , will take it in , and let them have it , yet what follows that the church is but the ground and pillar to set the letter upon , which i.o. calls the light and truth there ? and to hold forth only the outward literal publication , as t.d. pleads , p. , . of his . pamph. or the seat or place of residence for the scripture as upon the exchange in london are pillars and places upon which hang tables and proclamations ? in no wise surely , for though the pillars of the exchange are for support as well as shew , and so t.ds. simile doth not quadrare , nor run on all four to bee sure , yet , to give them the sense of a pillar to hold up or hold out only , yet that which the church is the pillar to hold up , that is hold forth , is the truth , whether by , or without the scripture of it between which truth and the book they both sometimes do distinguish , which truth or light is the foundation or pillar in sensu architectonico on which the church is built , and not it on the church as the letter is , which under god the church , that gives no being to the truth or light , nor kindles one beam thereof as i.o. sayes , but only bears witness to it , gives being to , and so is in sensu architonico the pillar or foundation of , though in sensu forensi of the light and truth only for the church is more honourable then the letter , as the builder , or that which supports the house , is more honourable then the house that receives being under god , and preservation from it , and its prophets ; but its less honourable then the light and truth it lives by , and hath its being from , as a church , in respect of which light and truth t is confest it is not a pillar and ground in sensu architectonico , as it is of the letter , but in sensu forensi only , that is the seat , place or pillar from whence it is held out and shines , or as the church is called , re● . . . zach. . . a golden candlestick , that serves to hold out in life and doctrine , voice and writing , the eternal word of grace , light , truth , and word of life conveyed in measure to her from the two olive trees , or anointed ones , or sons of oyl , the living word and spirit , that empty themselves into the golden candlesticks , feeding them therewith , and from thence shining as god witnesses to the world , which two witnesses shining and prophesying to the church , or candlesticks , and through them to the world in power and much patience and sufferings , stand before the god of the whole earth , zach. . rev. . and if the saints born of the incorruptible seed , the word of god , which liveth and abideth ever , may bee stiled the seed of god ; will i.o. thence conclude that a corruptible letter copied out by corrupt mens hands [ as the scripture is at this day ] may be so stiled also ? the word of god took upon him the nature and seed of abraham , but never took upon him [ however he is written of in it ] the proper nature of a dead letter , that was written with ink and pen by mens hands . there was no time wherein the word and light by which all was made , was made , or born into the true nature of such a letter , but there is a time of its being , made flesh , and dwelling , as their food , in the saints , joh. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( natus est ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the word was born flesh , and dwelt in us , ioh. . . to . the bread i give is my flesh , &c. howbeit all flesh is not the same flesh , there is a flesh of christ , that , if eaten with a carnal mouth would , as so , have profited nothing , vers . . it s a spirit that quickens , even the words he speaks , which are spirit & life , not an outward flesh , much less an outward letter ; but this is a great mystery when we speak of christ and his church , that eats his flesh , and drinks his blood to cleansing from all sin , and to life , as the eaters and drinkers of bread and wine yet do not , and are flesh of his flesh , & bone of his bone ; this is childrens bread , a knowledge too wonderful for our accademical scribes , and scripture-searchers for the life , while they hate the light , who are so lost in their laudings of the letter , and hampered in their heads about their senses of the history , and taken up with tattle for every tittle of the text , that they have not time to turn in to the light whereby to see it , and so miss the mystery of the gospel , which is revealed only to them that live and walk therein by the light and spirit in the heart . as to that hos. . . hee must bee more then moon-blinde that takes the word light there to be intended of the letter , since the place sufficiently explains it self in the next clause before that , and expresses it to bee the words of gods own mouth , the same that i have said enough to above , even that sword and spirit and rod of his mouth , and breath of his lips and brightness of his own coming , wherewith he smites the nations , consumes the man of sin , reproves for the meek and slayes the wicked : t is true , he sayes in the first clause of the verse hee hews them by his prophets , for hee comes not to do any judgements on the wicked , which hee reveals not first to his servants the prophets , who go forth and warn them of the the doom that from the lord himself is drawing nigh upon them , but t is the words of his own mouth , the light from himself that condenms them in their own consciences for their evil deeds , by which he slayes and executes his wrath and judgement [ under which they are left inexcusable ] upon them , which judgements are as a light that goeth forth , purging away the sin , and preparing a way for the lords coming in mercy to such as wait quietly on him in the way of his judgements while they pass , as at the house of god they do , whereat they begin , till her righteousness at last go forth also as brightness , isa. . , . and her glory and salvation as a lamp that burneth . as to that ioh. ● . , . one would not think it , that had not seen the lord hiding the plain truth of the gospel , as it lyes open in the text , from the wise and prudent , which hee is revealing unto babes , that one of the renowned scribes , and disputers of this world , should be so confounded , as to conceive that by light there is meant the letter , since t is as clear as the light it self from the verses themselves , and those that go immediately before them that that light alone , which the letter only points to , and not the letter it self can so much as possibly be there intended . where 's th scribe , where 's the disputer of this world for the scriptures , that he cannot see the scriptures themselves he is so scraping for ? is hee not a miserably be-moped , mis-led leader that would lead men to mis-beleeve the letter in its testimony to the light , which letter hath no higher end then to bring men to beleeve in that true light of the world , which it self doth but testifie of , which light is no other then that which shines immediately ( whether the glass of the letter be beheld yea or nay ) from himself , who is the sun of righteousness , into the world that is in mens hearts , condemning the evil-doer and his deeds , laying open to them not [ de jure ] only what the lusts of it are , and in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that they are to bee avoided , even those of the eye , flesh , pride , &c. but [ de facto ] how far forth they are , or are not avoided , and accordingly censuring them within themselves , where the letter cannot come in the inmost cells of the consciences of such men of the world , as live where the letter without was never so much as outwardly seen or heard of ? is not hee of whom , and whose light all that i● spoken , vers . , , , , , , . recorded by the same evangelist , joh. , , . &c. saying , i am come a light into the world , that whoever beleeveth in me may not abide in darkness , and ioh. . . hee that followeth me ●●ark ) me the true light , joh. . . that enlighten every man that cometh in the world , shall not walk in darkness , but have the light of life ? is all this and much more in that book , joh. . . and much more throughout the epistles of the same holy man , who speaks of the word that was in , and was the light from the beginning before any letter was , and of the son of god , and the holy unction , &c. intended , and to be interpreted of no other then the little letter , and of no more then that little of the letter that was written by motion of that spirit , which is bound up , and bounded within the brief bounds of your now hide-bound bibles ? pellibus exiguis arctatur fili usingens ? pellibus exiguis arctatur spirit usingens ? o thou that art named , mic. . . the house of jacob is the spirit of the lord so straitned ? are these his doings ? do not his words ( which are heard from his own mouth ) do good to him that walketh uprightly by them now as well as in former dayes ? moreover the letter is not come into all the world so universally de facto & actualiter ( for de jure & potentialiter it may by right and possibly enough be so transmitted , but that were too much cost for our covetous clergy to bestow bibles without coin upon poor heathenish nations ) into all the dark corners of the earth as the light spoken of ioh. . must necessarily bee supposed to do , or else it is not adequate to the case there handled ; for the letter is actually seen and read but in a small part of the world ; but the world into all which the word , that is the true light , is said to come both in col. . . joh. . . and in joh. . which is parallel to them , is the whole world that lyes in wickedness , and every man in it tha● dwells in darkness , and shadow of death , yea where ever the spiritual darkness is , and that is in all mens hearts , where the letter comes not among such as carry it under their arms , there is this true light said to shine , though the darkness doth not comprehend it , joh. . . i know the narrow pinching conceits of such as would winde the wide world here spoken of within the short circuit of his church , or the elect , which they confess [ though as personally predestinated to life , as all the rest are peremptorily to damnation without any respect to foreknown faith or unbeleef to be scarce one of a thousand , telling us a new-found world of men ( in the moon of their own fancies ) and making the letter , which they call the word , the foundation of that world , which god hath set up in this world , so i.o. doth , p. . as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a wheel within a wheel his church , and asserting the term world , ioh. to denote the elect , a few in it only , as t.d. at the second dayes disptute at sandwich , to which he had his answer much what to the tun● as follows , that if by the world , the church , or elect only is meant , then those six verses , viz. , , , , , . must be read , and rendred thus , viz. for god so loved the world of the elect. that he gave his only begotten son , that whosoever in all that world of the elect beleeveth in him might not perish , but have everlasting life ; for god sent not his son into the world of the elect to condemn the world of the elect , but that the world of the elect through him might be saved ; he [ in this world of the elect ] that beleeveth on him , is not condemned , but he [ in this world of the elect ] that beleeveth not is condemned already , because he hath not beleeved on the only begotten son of god ( as if some of the elect did beleeve , and yet others of their very peremptorily elected ones both to faith and life might not beleeve , and so be condemned and perish ) and this is the condemnation , of those elected ones that perish , that light is come into the world of the elect , but men , elect men , love the darkness more then the light , because their deeds are evill . for every elect one that doth evill hateth the light , neither cometh to the light , left his deeds should bee reproved ; but hee , among the elect that doth truth commeth to the light that his deeds may bee manifested to bee wrought in god. much more was replied to t.ds. dream then , then , shall bee repeated in this page , because i am here in talk with i.o. to another purpose about the letter , which is not a little served by the inserting of so much of it here ; as occasion is the universality of this true light , i.o. owns to bee the letter , may be transiently touched upon again before the end ; only thus i say here to that absurdity of t.d. ( who is not alone in it , it being the doctrine of most of our modern protestant divines , the odness of which , which i need not bid any one that is well in his wits to behold , i shall leave to all men , among whom if any will bee ignorant let him be ignorant , if any be honest he will see it in due time ) that the word world , which is sometimes used to express the whole fabrick of the vniverse , matth. . . and sometimes [ when predicated of persons ] all men good and bad , as here , ioh. . . , , . and sometimes for the major part of men , which are the worst , lying in wickedness , and wondring after the beast , or at best in but a form of christianity , ioh . rev. . and sometimes for the whole race of the wicked , abstract from the righteous seed , which are the fewest , ioh. . yet i here summon all men in the world , to shew so much as one text wherin is used to express a minor part of men , unless by an hyperbole , as behold the world is gone out after him , or one at all wherein it s used to express the saints , church , or elect in a sense abstract from , or exclusively of the wicked , and i shall yeeld they have shewed me more then ever i could yet finde at least , though t will be little to disprove the universality of christs light in all men . till then that that is done ( not tri●●ingly , nor seemingly for a shew , but solidly , seriously , conscientiously , cogently , irresistibly and substantially i must be excused if their mundus electorum ex mundo electus [ as they speak ] which is one of the many chris-cross round os that i.o. and t.d. dance together in among other divines in their divinity doctrines , do pass for me under that most proper name that i.o. himself gives it of a wheel in a wheel indeed . but lastly , that the universality and large extent of the light , ioh. . , . said by i.o. to be the letter , is such as the letter is not adequate unto , and therefore cannot be meant by it , let the two verses answer it themselves , and let the first of them speak first on behalf of both . every one that doth evill hatetht he light , neither cometh to the light , left his deeds should bee reproved , but he that doth truth cometh to the light that his deeds may be manifested that they are wrought in god. rep. . this light , whatever it is , is hated , avoided , a●d shunned by every one that doth evil , therefore it cannot be the letter of the scripture ; in various respects , because abstract from the doctrine , teaching , and light of christ , which is in the heart and conscience , the letter i neither hated , nor shunned , nor feared by the evil doer nor need be , for fear his deeds should be reproved by it , for though de jure the light by the letter sometimes , and sometimes without it manifest , evill deeds [ for the works of the flesh , as well as the fruits of the spirit are manifested , the letter saith , and that all that is reproved is manifested by the light , not the letter it self , and what ever doth make manifest is the light , gal. . eph. . ] yet that by which ( de facto ) his deeds , i.e. every mans own deeds are reproved if evill , and manifested so himself to be good , is the light in his conscience without the letter , which , as well without the letter as with it , shews moral good and evill , and without the letter ever shews every mans own deeds de facto to himself , and that from god , as i.o. confesses a man needs no witness without him to assure him that what his conscience speaks , it speaks from god , &c. p. . if he be in deceit it will tell him , yea in short by this light there christ shews , as he did the woman of samaria , all that ever they did , which thing the light as shining without in the letter only , doth not , much less the letter without it , for that tells only what men should have done , not what de facto they have done within themselves ; so that evill ones need not much more fear coming to that alone , then a thief in the night need fear being discovered by a dark lanthorn , that hangs up without a candle in it ; for the letter alone is but as the lanthorn , and t is as evident that thousands of evill doers , who hate the light , and dare not come to it , are not ash●med , nor afraid of comming near the letter ; they couzen , cheat , are bloody , cruel , proud , and wicked , steal , lye , swear , commit adultery , &c. yet read , hear , love to look in the letter , buy bibles , applaud it , preach from it , plead for it , are proud of it , yea who more busie about the bible , and in a more uncessant search of , & endless scraping for more the scriptures then licentious luxurious , lascivious , ambitious , unrighteous , murderous , envious , maliciou , lying , persecuting schollers , and bible-binders , that hate light , which reproves their evill deeds , which those that love truth in the inward parts love and come to ; yea our professing christians that say they are the iews , and are not , but do lye , and are the synagogue of satan , are iews in this p●i●t at least of searching scripture , and looking into the letter for life , which testifie of christ as the life , to whom they will not come in his own light that they may have it and of talking from the letter of christ the son of god , yet refusing to hear his voice , when hee speaks to them in their own hearts , and thereby leaves them without cloak for their sin , and seeing and hating both christ and his father in the light that shews them , as much as christ and his children hate the devil , and his deeds . finally , as the text sayes , every evill doer in the world hates the light , but there are millions of evill doers that neither love nor hate the letter , nor the bible , which they never so much as saw or heard of , therefore the letter cannot be the light here spoken of , men cannot hate that they have no way heard of , as neither can they love or desire it , for there is no odium toward that at all , which is no way known at all , neither savingly , nor otherwise , as there is ignoti null a cupido . a word lastly to pet. . . and then i have done at present with i. os. whole dozen of his own chusing which agree altogether as one to give their iudgement or juridical verdit against him . as to this text therefore which with the , and . vers . is no less then nine , or ten times over rehearsed one where , or others in thy book , i have had it so often under my eye that i have hardly forbore so long from talking with thee about it , and there is yet a place behinde whereunto i thought i might have reserved the examination of it , it being there urged with two more , in the way thou callest inartificial , ●in proof of the scriptures being the word of god , p. , . but now i shall here consider it whilst , it s under my hand , where it s urged in vindication of the letter to bee the light , which letter if it be the light there spoken of , then i will yeeld it to be the word of god there spoken of also , for i shall grant its both of these if either , and if it be not both , thou must needs grant its neither : the verse runs thus , but we have a more sure word of propesie or prophetical word , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to which ye do well to give heed , as unto a light that shineth in a dark place , untill the day dawn , and the day star arise in your hearts . and the two that follow it thus , for no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation , for the prophesie came not at any time by the will of man , but holy men of god spake as they were moved by the holy spirit . rep. thy often repetition of this scripture upon every occasion imports the great stress thou puttest upon it , and how great store thou settest by it , as to the proof of the scriptures being the word of prophesie , and the light shining in the dark place of mens hearts here mentioned , which text with the context both which thou improvest to the uttermost will s●rve us rather to reprove thy ignorance of gods word by , and to prove thy heart to bee still a dark place , then serve thee from which to prove the scripture to bee the word of god , or to be the light here said to shine in the dark place there spoken of which is the heart , exitus acta probat . from this text considered , together with the context , thou confidently concludest , assertest and insistest on five things . . that all the scripture , letter , or writing , in the original texts of it , which is now bound up in your bibles , and commonly called the scriptures , was written at fi●st by holy men as they were acted in it by the immediate inspiration of the spirit of god , and this i shall neither deny , nor put thee to prove , though if i should , i see where thou wouldest falter , and be foundred in it ; but ( to let that pass here ) this i am sure enough of , that this place proves no such matter , as that ( as t is above laid down ) neither in terminis , nor by consequence , for though it sayes holy men of god spake of old , i.e. prophesied as moved by the holy spirit , yet it from thence follows not , that all that ever holy men of god wrote in point of history , chronicle , &c nor prophesie neither , was written by the same immmediate impulse of the spirit on the spirits of the penmen of all that is there , for some was written from the mouth of such as were inspired by the hands of others that were not the men inspired , nor moved to give forth the burden of the word of prophesie that was on them , as baruch wrote from ieremies mouth , tertius from pauls , and so others ; what they spake , and was written by , and from them was one thing , and the writing or scripture of that true word is another , which yet i own to bee of god , as far as ye can from it , or any other rationally assert the text to be , even in matter of chronicle or story , wherein men may possibly write true scriptures of things done in their times , and times before them from records and other principles , without that immediate inspiration or dictation of every iota or tittle to them , as thou tatlest somewhere , from the holy spirit of god : and lest thou shouldest not take this for truth to me , who am here in contest with thee , being prejudiced against me , hear what thy fel●ow-fighter against the qua. t.d. sayes ( for i can almost at any time , as paul did the pharisees and sadduces , who when they were both upon the back of him threw a bone , that set them together by the ears between themselves , and so save himself add his testimony to the truth from them both , act. . , , , , . ) set our stribes , pharsees and seducers at oddes within themselves , and send them to learn the truth we tell , and they will not take from us , from the testimony of one another ; which t.d. saith it follows not that because books are the books of prophets , therefore they are divinely inspired , for they might as well write from their own spirits , or upon human credit , as sometimes speak from their own spirits , p . of his . pamph. . that none of all the scripture , letter or writing aforesaid , is of private interpretation , that i● , neither to be interpreted as meer private mens writings written as other mens are p. . the figment and imagination of whose hearts are the foundation of all they speak . and this i as readily grant they are not to be deemed as thine , t. ds and some other mens are , who in your private , narrow conceptions and thoughts of things thrust out what yee tkinke , feign , and fancy still to be truth ( though nothing so ) about both the scriptures , and many other matters , for they are true scriptures of holy , publick spirited men , who wrote , or caused to be written what was known and surely beleveed , luke . . at least among saints , who were no liars , if not all at the immediate moti●n of the spirit , they declared the things they had seen , heard , and witnessed within themselves to be the truth , even when they wro●e from others in matter of doctrine , prophesie , or so , and in chronicle either immediately , or from more credible testimony then i.o. and t.d. when they write at all adventure upon leastly hear-sayes , from very go●d hands , when the matters are , in point of fact , many , if not most of them , very lyes . and in this sense thou strivest 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be taken , which thou sayest some think is put for , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p. , . and one copy read● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by an evident error or mistake without ground , * and much more ado then needs thou there makest to have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denote the writing of the scriptures to be by men that were moved by the publick spirit of god and not by mans private spirit , nor at his will , but gods , which i grant , and a little more too ( whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , signifie so much or not ) viz. that it neither is to be interpreted ( now it is so given forth ) at the will of man , or by mans private spirit , or by our own co●si●●ration of its sense and meaning , p. . which sense i see thou wouldest fain exclude 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from bearing , or having in any tollerable sense affixed to it ( and i cannot blame thee as thy principles are , for else thou who deniest the presence and guidance of the infallible spirit to all men in these dayes must cut off thy self , and fellow doctors , divines and expositors of the scriptures from medling much by your own conceptions , thoughts , understandings , and wills to interpret , open , or give your senses and fancies on them , by which craft you have your wealth ) but only & alone by the publick spirit of god , which gave them out , and only knows , his own minde and meaning , and reveals it to those that walk therein , and not after the flesh , as ye do , for we ( saith paul of himself , and those ministers ) have the minde of christ , cor. . so i give thee thy sense , and more then thou wouldest willingly have as concerning the int●rpreting of the scripture , which men in their private thoughts are not to expound , nor yet to deem it as meer private mens writings . howbeit none of all this comes out of this place so clearly as thou conceivest , for it speaks not of the letter and writing , so much as thou in thy private spirit interpretest it to do but of the truth , or holy things written , for whereas thou , who doest not see that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is one thing , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is another , takest the prophesie of scripture , it intends the prophesie it self , that was , as to the summe of it , written , but not the writing that is of it , which prophesie whether written by the hands , or spoken by the mouthes of holy men of god , who live in the spirit , was not to bee interpreted as the written or spoken doctrines of private men , that speak and write from the conceivings of their own narrow private spirits , the figment , and imagination of whose hearts is the fountain of all they utter , write , or speake , but as the undoubted , infallible , eternal truth of the living god made manifest in them , which they wrote and spoke forth as moved by gods publick holy spirit . . that the letter , scripture , or writing , ' or copies of the original texts , as ye have them at this day , are that word of god , called there the word of prophesie , v. . . that they are a more sure word in their evidence to us at least , though not in themselves , then any voice from heaven whatever , yea then gods own , if hee should speak to us from heaven , or then that voice by which hee spake from heaven , which peter , james , and john heard , when they were with christ on the holy mount. . that the said letter of the scripture , is the light said there to shine in the dark place of mans hearts , with an eminent advantage to its own discovery , as well as unto the benefit of others . all which three last assertions i not only deny to follow from this text ( as i did the two first , which yet i deny not the truth of ) but do as much deny them all three , or any one of them to bee truth at all , as i do absolutely deny all , or either of them to bee possibly by any sound reason to bee deduced or inferred from this place ; and likewise affirm that measure of the light and spirit of god and christ in the hearts and consciences of men , which we bear testimony unto , to be the more sure word of prophesie and light here testified to by peter . and the grounds of my denial of the one of these , viz. that the letter is it , and of my affirming the other , viz. that the light is it , are clear from two or three clauses of the text it self , which are proper , and the very import of the phrases , and truly and plainly agreeable to the light or spirit , or word of god within , but not a tall true or proper , or in truth agreeable to the letter without if predicated , thereof ; for first it is ( as much as i.o. jeers at the verbum seu lumen internum ) said to be the word and light within , and so the letter without is not ( if it were either the word or the light ) therefore it cannot bee the letter ad extra , which i o. labours for against the light , and t.d. also who p. . of his pamph. cot●s this same text , pet. . affirming the scripture to be the sure word of prophesie intended here , but the light ad intra , wee stand up for against them both ; that which is said to be within , is not intended of a thing that is without only , as the formal letter or the scripture is , formally considered according to its proper name and nature ( as i.o. dreams ) or that proper essential form ( quae dat effeci , per quam scriptura est id quod est ) which gives to it that very being , whereby it is what it is ; but of something that is really within , as the light only is , which the litera scripta , or letter without declares of . and that not the letter or scripture formally considered , but that word of god only and divine truth , law , doctrine , or commandement , which is a light and lamp is within , as rom. . . witnesses it for me , so my two antagonists , i.o. and t.d. do both from the testimony of that very text testifie the same with it , and me against themselves , the one viz. t d. sying p. , . of his . pamph. 't is evident that the word spoken of in the heart , rom. . is meant of the matters contained in the scriptures , for the apostle sayes expresly that is the word of faith which wee preach , whereby it seems by your selves the letter is neither the word there said to be nigh in the heart and mouth , nor yet the word of faith the apostles preached , but some other thing , that was actually , properly , truly , and formally within the heart , even the holy word , law , light , truth , spirit of truth , and doctrine , which wee together with the scripture do testifie unto , and you ( contrary both to us and the scripture ) are continually testifying against , and the other , viz. i.o. saying , ex. . s . the word in us is that word of faith the apostles preached , but they preached nothing but what was written by moses and the prophets , rom. . . yea that that word was a word written the apostle professedly testifies in that place , vers . . . the scripture is nigh us in our hearts and mouth , not in respect of the letter written , or the scripture formally considered as written , but of the divine truth , or as it contains and holds forth the divine truth it self . reply . v. . thou meanest sure , for there the word , scriptures , is named , but what of that ? and who doubts , or denies but that the word in the heart was written , as well as preached and testified to by writing , as well as by word of mouth ? but wilt thou ever be so blinde i.o. as to make no difference ( but when it serves thy turn to do it ( as thou thinkest ) against the truth , for then thou makest a difference . see p. . . ) between the word written , doctrine declared , and declaration , book and truth , scripturam & rem scriptam , preaching , and thing preached , publication , and will of god published , proclamation of good things , and the tidings , or good things proclaimed and told of ? suppose a man should stand at a market-cross , or in cheapside , and preach , publish or proclaim by word of mouth , or set up a bill or writing that there is special good wheat , bread , flesh , or the like , laid up under the custody of the lieutenant of the tower , enough for all the poor starvelings of the rich city of london where ( the more shame and wo to the rich gluttons in it they ly perishing about the streets ) by him freely to be dispenced , who is sealed or authorised to that end , to give to all comers according to their wants , or in a time of distress or danger , that there is safety in the tower for all that are willing to run in thither within so many dayes , or else the gates shall be shut ; for thus the publishers of the glad tidings of the gospel of peace and salvation by christ the light alone , and his spirit and light , which reproves sin is the heart , do declare , both by voyce and letter , or writing in their times , as he himself , isa. . . look to me , and be ye saved all the ends of the earth , viz. that in him who is the light is the life of men to be had , and not in the letter , which rather killeth , hee is the strong tower where safety alone is , him hath god sealed to be the giver of the bread of life , and the meat that endureth to eternal life to all that come to him in that time wherein he shines in his light. now if people should run only to the cryer , and hang alwayes on the hearing of his voice , or stand reading the good news in the writing he hath set up , doting on , and delighting only to read that day by day , because its comfortable , as it tells of good things , and never at all according to the counsel thereof betake themselves to the tower where they only are , might they not stand there poring till they perish , pine , and starve , and would they not lose time , and perhaps totally withstand it ? and would yee judge them to bee well in their wits if they should run up and flock all together to the proclamation or bare writing , supposing to injoy the things themselves , though they never look after the said lieutenant , spinning out the time limited in looking upon the writing , and so far dote , as our dr doth that the coming to the scriptures , is the only proper way of coming to christ himself which he counsels us to , rev. . as to think that their comming to that paper every day is their next way to the tower , their very only proper going to the lieutenant that is required ? mutati● mutandis de te fabula , the case is your own , o ye untaught , better fed then taught teachers , it is yours , o ye more letter-lauding then letter-learning preachers , and priest-admiring people . christ is come from god that men might have life , and have it abundantly , calls all to look and come to him for it ; yee like the old scribes search the scriptures , and therein look for the eternal life , because they are they that testifie of it , and of him who is the life , but yee will not come to him that yee may have the life , ioh. . . &c. . what need i say more , but with t.d. and i.o. to heed and beleeve themselves , because they are so dull of hearing that they will neither heed nor beleeve the qua. . for they give the cause in question between the qua , and them about the scripture , or the letters being the world of faith or light shining in the dark place of mens hearts , which peter sayes men are to take heed to , which said dark place that is the heart and cons●ience , where ( by their own confession ) so gross a thing as a formal outward letter cannot come , but only some more subtil thing then that is , even a spiritual light , as that is not , is as evident in the text as the word and light it speaks of is to him that is not blinde ; for the dark place wherein the word and light here is said to thine , is the same wherein as the light is taken heed to the day dawns and the day star , i.e. christ him self arises first as that bright and morning star , rev. . . whereby the day spring from on high visits such as sate in darkness , luke . , . and at last as the sun of righteousness it self , mal. . . but that is said expresly to be the he●rt ; so far as from ioh. . . we argue , where the spiritual darkness is , which comprehends not the light , within which darkness the light shines , there the true light shineth , but that is within in the conscience of all men , therefore there the true light in some measure is shining : as if the dark place within which the sun shines be a room within the house , then some light from the sun must be within the said room also ; so wee argue retro from hence , if the dark place where the day is to dawn , as the lesser light therein is observed , be the heart , then the place wherein the lesser light shines , which even therefore secundum v●s ( o ye b●nighted ) ones cannot be the letter , must be the heart also ; but verum prius , &c. the first is true , therefore the latter . we have a more sure word of prophesie , to which ye do well to give heed as to a light that shineth in a dark place , until the day dawn , and the day-star arise in your hearts . . the word of prophesie , or prophetical word is a phrase that of it self seems to any , but blinde expositors , to intend another thing than the outward letter , and to found forth no less then that more inward word or immediate testimony of christ himself in the conscience elsewhere stiled the words of prophesie , or word of god and witness , or testimony of iesus , or spirit of prophesie from which , of which , and to which the holy men that were internally illuminated thereby , and made acquianted with gods secrets , bare record or testiminy without by voice or writings , rev. , , . , . the tr●e and faithful words of the lord himself inlightning such as wrote the letter , who , having no need so to do , the lord and the lamb being their light , wrote not by , though not against , the directory of i.os. outward candle , moon , or sun , ad extra , i.e. the external text of others writings , rev. . . . . . the words of the prophesie of this booke , as iohn calls it , rev. . i.e. the inward spirit of prophesie or testimony of iesus , from which all prophesie went forth , whether by voice or writing , which the angels and gods servants the prophets had and kept . rev. compared with rev. . . which book i.o. dreams ( 't is like ) was the outward writing or copy that iohn gave forth , the uncertain copies of which ( to say nothing of the doubts of the old dimn sighted doctors , that were at oddes about the outward book called the revelation , and some others , even of those that are owned as authentick , whether they are not spurious yea or nay ) only are extant at this day , little deeming that was an inward book , which i.o. tells us of too , if he will own his own words , p. . . which iohn took in at first , from which he gave out the the other , and prophesied in the way of manual wiriting , even the inner book of gods secrets , which are only with such as fear him , revealed to christ by the father and by christ to iohn , and opened by christ to his servants at this day who eat it and prophesie out of it again before many peoples , nations , tongues and kings , though sealed with seals to the scribes on the backside or outside of it , on which backside or outward letter , they are busily poring , but they cannot read it , neither learned nor unlearned , because it is a book sealed , rev. . . . . & , , , . isa , , ao , , . . that very epethite , which to the word of prophesie here spoken of is annexed doth even infallibly evidence it to be intended of that inner word spirit and light in the conscience which the qua. call too , and thou scoffest at , and not at all of that fallible external text which thou art so talkative for , for it s called a sure , permanent , firm , or stable word , which is more then can be , saving all thy blinde bable about it , asserted of the best , and most original copies of that letter thou contendest for that are extant in the world in these dayes : and not only so but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a more sure or stable word then that voice , which peter , iames , and iohn heard immediately from heaven out of the fathers own mouth concerning his beloved son christ the light of the world , given as a light to the nations shining and shewing the will of god to them in every one 's own heart , & so gods salvation to the ends of the earth , saying unto them , hear ye him , v. . comp . with mat. . . which voice coming from the excellent glory , which was infallibly sure to them , no cunningly devised fable they heard when they were with christ in the holy mount. now the word , spirit , voice and light of christ in the conscience is properly and truly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a more stable , firm and permanent word , or standing rule , constant canon , and lasting light , and so more sure to us ward then that voice to them , not surer in respect of its evidence to the hearers of it , or the security given by it that it was no fable nor fancy , in which sense thou most foolshly fanciest , p. . that the immediate voice above said ( absit absurdum ) was not so sure , i.e. not so certainly evident to be gods voice as the letter is certainly evident to be gods word ; for in that sense , the said voice was to them that heard it most infallibly sure or evident , so as nothing can bee surer to be god , and i.o. in saying [ as he dotingly doth p. . ] that comparatively we have greater security from , and by that written word , meaning the scriptures or writing ( for that is the word written with all along , such is his illiterate language ) then they had in and by that miraculous voice , as he calls it , and that the scripture is more sure in respect of its giving out of its evidence to us , then that voice of god was , doth thereby ( absit blasphemia ) render the very voice of god himself whereby he spake in , and to the prophets that wrote the scriptures to us , less sure and certain , more doubtful and questionable whether it might not be a mistake or no , then the outward writing or text they wrote , as it is transferred to our hands at this day , through the hands of such a mighty multitude of fallible transcribers , none at all of which no not the first were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 infallible or divinely inspired so that they could not in any thing mistake by his own confession , p. . where i.o. confesses , and grants also that it s known that failings have been among them , from whence various lections , of which it cannot be ascertained to men now which is right , which wrong , are arisen , which so variously transcribed scripture , it is shame enough for i.o. to assert ( as he doth , p. . under that term of word by which he terms it , and p. under its own name of scripture ) that it is come forth to us from god without the least mixture ●r intervenience of medium obnoxious to fallibility ( as is the wisdome , truth , integrity knowledge and memory of the best of all men , or capable to give change or a●teration to the least iota or syllable ; and more shame yet to say ( as hee doth p ▪ . ) that every apex of it is equally divine , and as immediately from god as the voice wherewith , or whereby bee spake to , or in the prophets , and is therefore accompanied with the same authority in it self , and unto us ; but most shame of all ( if he be not past shame so as not to see it ) in that he from this of peter sets the scripture , the alterable and much altered copies of his letter , his flexible transcripts and text , that are and may bee turned and winded , ( as himself confesses , p. , , , . of his epist. at the wills of criticks ) into ●arious senses , not only in equality with , but into a state of certainty ab●ve the very immediate voice of god , that was heard from heaven , which true v●ice of god yet p. , . hee sayes , to the contradicting of himself in what he asserts as to the minority of its evidence to us then that of the scripture , hath t●at 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 accompanying it , as evidences it self , and ascertains the soul beyond all possibility of mistake , and is that which we are at last to rest in as being discernable from , and obliging men to discern it from all delusions , though yet , o rotas i to go round again , the scripture is that with him , that is ultimately to be rested in , and not the voice of god , which he sayes may counterfeited ; witness the same pages where hee bems in , and hedges up his speech concerning the infallible certainty of gods voice beyond all possibility of mistake , and concerning our resting ultimately in that , a parte ante , with this saying , viz. suppose god should speak to us from heaven , as he spake to moses , or as he spake to christ , or from some certain place , how should wee bee able to know it to bee the voice of god ? cannot satan cause a voice to be heard in the air , and so deceive us ? or may not there be some way found out whereby men might impose upon us their delusions . pope caelestine thought he heard a voice from heaven when it was but the cheat of his successour , must we not rest at last in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that accompanies the true voice of god evidencing it self , and ascertaining the soul beyond all possibility of mistake ? & a parte post , with this saying , viz. if the question be whether the d●ctrines proposed to bee beleeved are truths of god or cunningly devised fables we are sent to the scripture it self , and that alone to give the determination . thus ultimately we are to rest in gods voice ; and yet ultimately we must rest in the scripture , which is another thing ; for those that heard and searcht the scripture , as i shewed above , never at any time heard gods voice , though yet i beleeve i.o. to bee so sottish to suppose the scripture or writing to bee it , from which yet himself sometimes distinguisheth it . now the scripture , the letter ( what ever thou sayest of it to the contrary i.o. specially as to the present corrupted copies of it , which are your canon are not sure , much less a surer matter then the immediate voice of god , neither in that false sense in which i.o. interprets that term more sure , viz. more unquestionable and undoubtedly evident to bee of god ; for if wee grant it to be of equal divine certainty , as we need not , it being , as now , but the remote issue and product , at the hundredth hand perhaps , of gods voice in the prophets , yea but remote transcripts of fallible men from the handywork or manuscripts of the first penmen , yet to say its of greater divine certainty then gods own voice is absurdity in the abstract : nor yet secondly in that genuine sense , which the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 most properly bears , viz. more firm , stable , stedfast , standing , permanent , or the like ; for the letter is changeable , alterable , flexible , passing , perishing , corruptible at mans will , who may mistrans●ribe , turn , tear , change , alter , burn it , &c. and so flecting and transient ; but as for that voice , surer then which i.o. sayes the scripture is , which scripture he calls the light or the word of prophesie , and the prophesie of scripture , mistaking himself , when it is but the scripture of the prophesie , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . that voice was as infallibly sure to its evidencing it self to them that heard it to be of god , as any thing can bee , though so permanent it was not as the light within is , ●nd the voice of god that is to be heard in the heart of those that take heed to , and turn not away from it ; for that particular voice that came to them from god , saying of christ , hear ye him ; was passing and transient , not abiding , staying and standing , as to the actual ●udibility of it , but the voice and word of the son in the heart , of whom the father said , hear ye him , this is permanent , lasting , standing , stable , sure , stedfast , alwayes nigh in the heart of men that they may both hear and do it , and this and not the o●tward scripture , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which i.o. scrafles for is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the more sure word or prophesie of scripture , i.e. that that scripture writes of , or the light shining in the dark place of the heart good to be taken heed to here spoken of , even the voice of christ speaking from heaven , in the heart and conscience , of whom the father sayes vers . . hear him , whose voice his sheep hear , and who ever hears not in whatever he sayes shall be cut off from among his people , whose voice which shakes the old earth and heaven , where it s heeded , it s more dangerous to turn from , then t is tō turn from moses and the prophets and holy mens outward writings ; for these , whether old or latter , speak and write , though by motion from god , yet on earth only ▪ but hee commeth from heaven , and is above all , as iohn baptist said of himself and christ , ioh. . . , , , . &c. i am not the christ , i am but sent before him ; he hath the bride . i am but the bridegrooms friend who stand and hear him , rejoycing at his voice , he must increase , i must decrease ; he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth , he that cometh from above is above all : see therfore saith paul , he. . . that ye refuse not him that speaketh , for if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth , much more shall not we escape if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven . yea not the letter , but this voice , and light in the heart this inwardly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ingrafted innate word or spirit imparted , implanted , indelibly in mens consciences is as god and christs vicegerent there , both revealing what hee requires of every man ( as to his own particular ) and taking account of him also in the name , majesty , and authority of god de facto , how he answers it , which voice or light of god and christ in the conscience is called by thee , p. , , , . the innate or ingrafted light of nature , the voice of god in nature , and common n●tions , and general presumptions of god , and his authority inlaid in the natures of rational creatures , and innate principles of reason and conscience , and such like , as if they were so de naturae , & de esse hominis , so flowing from the meer natural being of men , that they can be no more said to be supernaturally of god , then the very natural faculties of reason , understanding and conscience it self [ of which more an on both with thee , and t.d. also ] though it be indeed that very way of supernatural revelation which thou sayest , p. . the scripture is , that ( as now in the world ) is handed to thee by the meer improvement of men● natural faculties in the way of transcribing , printing , re-printing , as also studied by the meer improvement of your natural faculties of reading , remembring , understanding hebrew , greek , latine , english , &c. to the begetting of a meer animal or natural knowledge whereby yee know things meerly naturally , speaking evil of what yee know not , and corrupting your selves in what ye do know naturally as bruit beasts , for as a horse or bullock can finde the way to the pasture where hee hath often been , so the priests by use , course , custome , and concordance more than the work of the spirit bringing all things to their remembrance , can turn readily to chapter and verse . which forsaid voice or light that god ( as thou sayest truly p. . ) hath indelibly implanted in the minds of men ( for the minde , heart , and conscience is as a dark place , as to all spiritual , moral and supernatural knowledge , without the law or light of god shining in it , and shewing good and evill ) is by thy own further confession to thy own further confusion accompanied with a moral instinct of good and evil , seconded by that self-judgement which god hath placed in us in reference to his own over us , and that by which god reveals himself to the sons of men , and that indispensable moral obedience which he requireth of us as his creatures subject to his law , and which is as effectual to reveal god , as his works are , to which there is need of nothing , as thou sayest , but that they be represented or objected to the consideration of rational crtatures , and bears testimony to the being , righteousness , power , omniscience , holiness of god himself and calls for moral obedience which is eternally and indispensably due to him , and so shews the work of the law written in the heart , and is that by which the gentiles , or nations , that have not the law in a letter , are a law to themselves ; and more then all this by thy own absolute acknowledgement , whereby 't is evident that it ( even that thou callest the voice of god and the law written in the hearts of the very gentiles , and not the letter of the law written without with ink and pen ) is that ingrafted word by every one to be received with meekness , jam. . . which is able to save the soul , and that sure word ( as to it its evidencing it self to us ) or light shining in the dark place of the heart , and that more firm , stedfast , constant , standing , permanent word or light , or rule of life to us , then that infallibly sure and certain , though passing and transient voyce , that in the audience of peter , iames and iohn came from god himself , that is here spoken of : the said voice or light in the heart declares it self to be from god by its own light and authority , so that there is no need to convince a man by substantial witnesses that what his conscience speaks it speaks from god what ever testimony it bears , or what ever it calls for from us in his name , and so speaks and declares it self ( not only more constantly , as it s ever with men but as to its certainty also ) that without further evidence or reasoning , without the advantage of any considerations but what are by it self supplied , it discovers its author from whom it is , and in whose name is speaks , and is inlaid by the hand of god to this end to make a revelation of him as to the purposes mentioned , & is able to evince its own divine original without the least contribution of strength or assistance from without ; and therefore [ i adde ] without an outward letter undoubtedly , though as undoubtedly an outward letter cannot do all , nor any of all this without the light or said voice , word , or spirit of christ within , which only doth , and can evidence it unto the conscience that the letter , scripture , and doctrines declared therein are of so divine an original as they are . thus i have done with that eminen● text , which is so much talked on so little to their own purpose by the most eminent talkers for the text of the scripture , as that thing therein recommended to us to bee taken heed to , as the most sure word of prohesie , the light shining in the dark place of mens hearts , the prophesie of the scripture , that is not of private interpretation , but spoken forth in writing in the movings of the holy spirit , under which termes the holy apostle intends not the outward text , in which , as well as otherwhile by word of mouth the holy men testified to it , and held it forth , but that inward word , light , spirit of prophesie , truth , witness and testimony of iesus in the conscience , which their outward voice , words , witness , and writings were but a testimony unto , and an external means to turn men to : upon the account of which text in peter , and the . other aforesaid which i.o. impannels as his jury to judge the case in question , whether the letter outward writing or scripture is the spiritual light or word of god yea or nay ? i.o. makes such a full account to carry it his way , and to have their unanimous universal verdict for him , that the letter is the light , and consequently the most perfect rule , and consequently the word of god , that in his blind hasty confidence he cannot stay from stiling it so , till the trial about it be ended , and while the cause is sub-judice , and he but in his prosecution of the proof thereof , but by way of anticipation , as it were , throughout his whole book , which is written mostly in ordine ad probationem as an enquiry after , and examination of the matter , he very often here and there , if not as frequently and commonly as by its own proper names of letter , writing , text , or scripture stiles and denominates it under the foresaid names of of the light , rule , foundation , witness , vvord of god , as its nomen pr●prium , which hee will never prove to bee proper to it whilest hee breathes . and so hee runs on blindly in such over ample applaudings , and most mighty magnifications of the scripture , that is the subject about which the argument is driven on , by what termes soever , whether of the truth , the foundation , the power of god , the rule , the vvitness of god , the vvord of god , &c. hee expresses it by , that if he were set to extoll and set forth christ jesus himself in all his dignity , authority , dominion , might , majesty and glory [ unless it be the express names of the only beloved and begotten son of god , king of kings , lord of lords , mighty god , the ever-father , the prince of peace , and perhaps some few more ] i can scarcely suppose on a sudden that he could finde any other , or at least any more eminent titles to dignifie him by , then those by which hee dignifies , not to say deifies his adored dead transcript , text , and corps of the greek and hebrew copies of the scriptures , which hee vermilions over with the honour and veneration ( as to sundry of the most excellent glorious titles and properties hee attributes to it ) that is due either to god or christ , or his living vvord , light and spirit alone : for howbeit every such particular expression of vvonderful , councellor , leader , and commander to the people , redeemer , saviour , salvation , &c. that christ is stiled by , may possibly not bee used in i.os. book to express the outer scriptures by , yet i beleeve there is but little asserted in honour of christ , the spirit , the living light and vvord througout the scripture , which is not asserted , if not in the same , yet in termes equivalent in honour of the scripture it self . witness all those most high flown phrases and eminent strains he flyes out and strikes up in in way of ascribing little less then all authority , dominion , exaltation , transaction , self-evidencing efficacy , light , power , dignity and glory , here on earth at least , unto the scriptures , as if the father had sealed it , and not his son and spirit to be the disposer and orderer of all things next and immediately under himself as supream iudge , rule , ruler , head and governour over the sons of men , and the giver and dispenser of the meat that endureth to eternal life . chap. iv. and now i return to take more notice of what more is urged in his latine theses , as concerning the scriptures being the only most perfect rule of faith , life , worship ▪ and knowledge of god as to salvation . the second argument in proof whereof is its perfect operation and efficacy , ex. . s. . omnia perficit necessaria , &c. it accomplishes all that is necessary to gods glory , and our salvation , in vindication of which , a whole dozen of scriptures are urged , eleven of which are above answered , and one onely remains to be a little spoken to , viz. isa. . , . and as to that of isa. , . i grant , that the word of god , as the rain and snow comes down , and returns not without watering the earth , and causing it to bring forth and bud , and give seed and food , so it returns not void at any time without working that for which he sends it to any person or people , and prospering to the accompli●●ment of what he pleases ; but i am half amazed to see that thou i.o. shouldest bee so silly as to interpret that of the scripture , since it so expresly speaks de verbo oris sui , of the word of his mouth , which is asserted immediately from himself with his own voice [ so shall my word be that goeth out of my mouth ] which word expressed by his own voice speaking , who so upon second thoughts , and serious consideration , shall say the scriptures are , & properly too , as i.o. excusing his ignorance , for as much as not for want of incogitancy , i my self sometimes so thought while i ran as our national ministry now doth , making haste and saying he saith ] before himself had sent mee [ howbeit i wanted no sending of man ] or had spoke to me , or i heard his voice , i shall make bold to accuse him of arrant , absurdity , miserable mistake , wretched blindness , and utter un●●rthiness to bee denominated a doctor in that thing , which our divines call divinity . nevertheless not having so well minded the matter , as upon occasion they may do in time to come , being carried in times past by custome to take things , and term and talk of them according to tradition , more then true discerning of them in their proper natures , the very preachers of this nation , as well as the poor people that have lived on their lips , have been so habituated , by common metonymies , to miscall the scriptures by names not proper to their natures that they now stand up to depend them to be most properly denominated by those metonymical and improper names ; so that howbeit we are never so willing to allow them to express themselves by such figurative phrases as are frequently found in the scripture it self ( as act. . . the voices i.e. scriptures of the prophets , are said to be read in the iews synagogues every sabbath ) and that satisfies them not , but the qua. are deniers both of the scriptures , and of the word of god , and spoylers of them of their proper names , if they yeeld not to their as absurd as arbitrary appellations of them , by those glorious titles of gods words , gods voice , as their proper names , yea in this dotish disquierness , and peevish perversnes of his prejudiced spirit doth i ▪ o. quarrel with the quakers as bereavers of the scripture of its proper name , because they own not his improperties , in ignorantly and impudently imposing the names of the word of god , and the spiritual light on the letter as its proper names , which it chal●engeth to it self from its preheminent participation of the nature and properties of the word of god , and of light , viz. life , power , to quicken and save , and to shine to the evidencing of it self . j.o. i am now to deal against the qua. about the proper name of the scripture : for this sort of men are glad that the care of this business is committed to them by satan that they may spoil the scriptures of that glorious title the word of god : this name doth the scripture challenge to it self . so p. . , , . that the scripture is light , we shall see that is so , or can be called so , unless it hath this nature , and properly to evidence it self , as well as to give light to others , cannot in any tolerable corespondency of speech be allowed : whether spiritual , intellectual light , regarding the minde , or natural with respect to bodily sight be firstly or properly light , i need not inquire , both have the same properties ; it is spiritual , moral , intellectual light , with all its mediums that hath the preheminence as to a participation of the nature and properties of light . now the scripture , the word of god , * is light , a light ●hining in a dark place , pet. . . with an eminent advantage for its own discovery , &c. a glorious shining light , an illuminating light , compared and preferred ab●ve the light of the sun , psal. . , ▪ . rom. . the most glorious light in the world , the most eminent reflexion of increased light and excellencies : the psalmist ascribeth light , power , stability , and permanency like that of the heavens and sun , in commutation of properties , to the word , i.e. scripture with i.o. and an inexpressible exaltation of it above them , the light of one day of this sun [ meaning the scripture , which hee expresses by the terme the word of god ] being unspeakably more then that of seven others , as to the manifesting the glory of god , nor doth it impaire this self-evidencing efficacy of the scripture , that it is a moral , spiritual , not a natural light. this , and much more utters i.o. concerning these termes of the word , the light , as the proper names of the right belonging to the letter . neither is i.o. alone in this , but some others i have met with that have stifly stood up to defend the scripture or letter to be the light , the word of god , yea verbum oris , the word of his mouth , and the voice of god and christ properly , and properly to be so called . rep. which sayings , o the contrariety that is in them to common sense and reason ! they may as well say they hear that mans voice properly , some of whose sayings they read in the letters of such as write what they heard him say , they may as properly say they are to own the voice of the scribes and pharisees for their rule , as they are written down by the apostles and evangelists , sith christ saith , they sit in moses chair , all that they say do , and that they do now properly hear their voyces , sith what they said was recorded , as say that they now properly hear christs voice in reading some things he spake , as they are written by them that heard him speak them , and stablish , and canonize them , and other mens sentences , as the only standing rule on this account , because god said , hear him , and they now hear properly moses voice , and must own his law , that vanisht , as to the shadow of it , still to the church a standing rule , because christ said , they have moses and the prophets let them hear them . o the contrarity of this to the scriptures themselves , for if they be properly the voice of god and christ , then ( absit blaspemiae ) they make christ charge the scribes improperly and falsely , that they never at any time heard gods voice , joh. . for they heard the scriptures read every sabbath , neither could he say truly what he doth , exclusively of such as are not his sheep , my sheep hear my voice , if the scriptures were his voice properly , for the dogs and swine hear , and hear the outward scriptures read as well as his sheep , but his sheep hear another secret still voice of his , in all things that hee saith unto them in their own consciences , which the loud brawlers for the bare bible drown within themselves with their non-sensical notes and noyses about their diana's , and si●ver shrines and temple worship , and church work , which voice and words of his are heard in secret with more profit among the wise , luke . . then the cry of the truth selling spirit stinting-scripture stealers among fools , which still voice of christs ye● whoever hears not , and heeds not more then our heady high-minded hypocrites of these dayes do , may preach themselves out a while longer , yet as the ministers and church of christ , but shall ere long be cut off from among his people ; in the mean time however this is the improper tone they tune it out in when we bid them fear god , hearken to his voice , own that , as your only guide , his word , his voice , his spirit , his light , as the only infallible , sure standard , the witness of god himself , the scripture witnesses of , and sends men to , which hee that heeds follows , beleeves in , obeyes , needs not be so restless by wrangling as the wrestless for , and wresters of the scripture are about the witness of man , though witnessing from and for god as moved by him , for the witness of god himself and the witness of christ himself in the conscience is greater , needs not be so loud for a letter , for the voyces and words of men , and the writings and revelations of holy men , for the inward immediate voyce , the word , the spirit , the light , revelation of christ himself in the heart is greater . true ( say they ) we must hear christs voice in all things he sayes , abide in his doctrine or teaching , receive his witness and testimony , walk by his word , live by his light alone , bee guided and ordered in all things by his spirit , which alone reveals the minde of god and christ , without whose revelation none knows the things of god and christ ; but the letter of the scripture , the outward writings of such as heard him [ as we do not ] the hebrew and greek text at least , and translation● , as they keep touch with them , these are that word , that living , life-giving , powerful , heart-searching , soul-saving word , those words of his that are spirit and life , by which alone men must come to beleeve that light to the feet , that lamp to the path , that verbum oris , that very word of his mouth , that works and accomplishes all things to his glory , our salvation , that verbum oris that goeth forth of his own mouth , that hee put , according to his promise , isa. . ult . ( as if that were the scripture ; oh gross and shameful ! yet over and over , and over and over again , i.o. cites that text to prove gods promise to continue the hebrew and greek texts entire without loss or change of iota or title of it to the worlds end ) into the mouth of the churches seed , and the mouth of her seeds seed for ever , that must go out of the mouth of babes and sucklings , as the only strength against the persecutor to still the enemy and avenger , that sharp sword of his mouth , with which he will smite the wicked nations , rev. . that rod of his mouth , or breath of his lips , with which he slayes the wicked , isa. . that rod of his strength and power sent out of sion , by which he will rule f●reuer in the midst of his enemies , psal. . that word that he hath spoken which god hath magnified ov●r all that is called his name , and so over the light it self it sprang from , which is his name , joh. . and the s●fe strong tower of the righteous : that vis virtus dei , power of god and word of the cros● . that doctrine or teaching of christ , which , continued in , saves the preacher and hearers , ipsa doctrina , quam a deo docemur . that witness of god , which who so hath needs not the witness of men , for the witness of god is greater . that voice of god , that 's more sure and certain , as to its giving out its evidence to us , then the very immediate voice which the apostles heard god himself speak to them with from heaven , pet. . and all this , and much more exclusively and abstractively from that within , yea and properly too , so that the word of god , foundation , the rule , light , lamp , and so consequently all the rest of the ti●les are the very proper names of the scriptures , no other then what are properly answerable to its nature . for in this wife i.o. drives on the business avouching that glorious title of the word of god , and the light to be the nomen proprium scripturae , the proper name of the scripture , and that i wrong him not herein see his own stating the question between himself and the qua. ex. . s. , , . de scripturae nomine proprio nimirum titulo illo glorioso verbo dei , and p. . the scripture is a light yet nei●her is , nor can be called so unless it hath the nature and property of light , p. . the scripture a moral and spiritual , not a natural light. p. , . light spiritual hath the preheminence as to a participation of the nature and properties of light ; firstly and properly light from whence the other , i. e natural respecting bodily sight , is by allusion so denominated ; in these places either expresly or eventually , i.o. calls the light and word of god the proper names of scripture or letter , and so consequently en●tails all the other glorious titles to it as its right , due and proper names which they rob it of , and deny it to be what it naturally and properly and really is , who own it not properly both to be , and be called the word of god , but it neither is actually testified so to be any whereby god , nor by its self ( as i.o. p. . most lyingly & falsely affirms it , in so much that he who owns it not as so ) doth what in him lyes to make god a lyar . and also p. . where he sayes , if the scripture be what it reveals it self to be , it is then unquestionably the word of the living god [ as p. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the living word of god ] truth it self , for that it professeth of it self ( quoth he fr●m the beginning to the ending , neither can it possibly be so stiled properly , or unless it be by a figure [ as it no where is neither by it self that i know of● by which the image is called by the name of the person , which it properly is but a dead picture , and lifeless representation of , the lanthorn by the name of the light , that displayes it self more brightly when beheld without it , which lanthorn yet neither is the light nor properly said so to be . i am not ignorant of that common metonymy continentis pro re contenta , or figure whereby the thing contained is sometimes , but never properly where it is , exprest by the name of that which c●ntains it , and as well in that scripture we talk of as in other writings , matth. . . and cor. . . if this cup may not pass away except i drink it : as oft as ye d●ink of this cup , meaning , properly , not the cups , but the wine ther●in , viz. the one the bitter red wine of the wrath of the almighty god , the mixture whereof is powred out into the cup of his indignation , and of the fierceness of his fathers fury , which christ drank deep of in the dayes of his flesh and humiliation , to the drawing of supplications from him with strong crying and tears ; the other the wine of his blood shed for the remission of sins , which such as walk in the light come at last to be cleansed by from no less then all sin ; neither of which cups or sorts of wine thou hast yet drunk of , or truly knowest what they are , by all the skill thou yet hast in the scriptures thou so scriblest for , but shalt assuredly have thy part in the first , before thou savingly know the second , yea whether ever thou attain to witness the saving efficacy of the second yea , or nay . but what 's all this to the helping of i.o. in his crazy cause , whose fighting is not all for figures , or meer figurativ● denominations but for the formal and true proper names of the scripture , which is the name of the scripture , and not the word of god , say we , but is , saith he , that of the word of god ; had he fought for no more then figures against the qua. that stand for the truth , and said so too , though in so fighting he had been foolish , yet we could have born with him in that frivolous peece of ●olly , and have lent him such a latitude , as both by the letter and light may bee allowed , to speak metonimically and metaphorically of methaphorical matters , and left him to his liberty without a check , and let him alone in his figures to figure out things by other names then their own , and to call them that , which yet properly they are not , to stile the heus● they sit in by the name of the parliament , which it is not , to stile the picture by the name of the person , it is the image of , the voice by the name of the word , it is but the image of , and the scripture by that of the word , it is but the remote expression of , and of the voice , it is the more immediate image or expression of , for vox est imago verbi scriptura vocis immediata , verbi quaedam mediata imago seu expressio ; and to signifie the wine and the light respectively by the names of this cup , this glass , this lanthorn , and the word , and law by the name of a scripture , specially if by scripture he mean that inward writing of it by the spirit of the living god in the fleshly tables of the heart , where the law of god is written , though that writing and the word written are not all one neither , and we could bate him the impropriety of that figurative expression also , though it be far further fetcht then the other , whereby he should decypher that outward letter by the name of the law , which it is but a bart copy of , and the written word by the name of the writing , which yet in truth doth no more then declare of the word & retro , though i know not where in all the scripture the srripture is so much as by a figure denominated by that name the word of god , if the word be any where so called by the name of scripture , as i.o. sayes ( at least fortyfold falsely ) that above fifty times in the new testament the word graphs or scripture is put absolutely for the word of god , but if it were a hundred and fifty times so called , it would not prove the high point in that height he takes on him to prove it in , viz. that the scripture is properly the word of god , and the word of god its proper name , any more then the wine is called by the name of this cup , this glass , or the light by the name of the lanthorn & retro the lanthorn by name of this light , which is all figurative , not proper . but this is not i.os. case , who runs up to the very highest peg , and sings of the scriptures a note above the ela , and quarrels with the qua. as deniers of the scripture , unless they swerve aside with him in his silly supp●sitions , and as well uns●holler-like as unsaint-like sensless sayings , that the outwar● scripture the writing , the letter , and every letter and tittle , and iota , though but transcribed , in it , is the word of god , as t. . c s. . . that tam in esse reali , as cognoscibili , ex s. . the scripture both is , and doth infallibly evidence it self unto the consciences of men , that are not blinde to be assuredly the word of god. see his first title page , and t. . c. . s. . and that men that beleeve not ( as he implicitly beleeves in this ) being obliged so to beleeve upon the penalty of eternal damnation , at the peril of their own eternal ruine , and such like , are left unexcusable in their damnable unbeleef , t. . c s. . t. c. . s . t. c . s. . and who saith , that his chief business with the qua. is de noveine scripturae proprio , ex. . s. , , . about the proper name of the scripture , and to stablish it under that glorious title the word of god , as that proper name of it , which the chief business , committed by satan to the qua. that they rejoyce in , is to spoyl it of : yea how will all those figurative forms of speech list i.o. out of that qu●gmire wherein he sticks , and into which he hath rash●y run himself by , his hasty quarrelling with the qua. who is far from being satisfied , if the truth and doctrine of the scriptures be confessed to be sufficiently declared in the scripture , unless he be infallibly assured that every tittle and iota , as it was at first written , stands truly transcribed in his copies of it , and so far from being satisfied , if by a figure it should be granted [ as it need not for it s no where called so ] that the scripture is the word of god that he professes , ex. . . that if that declaration , that writing , which declares the minde and will of god , be not the word of god , he knows not what is the word of god , if he may not call the scriptures by that name the word of god , is so far ignorant of any name else to call it by , as to call out to the qua. to tell him what to call it if he may not call it by that name , si hoc non sit verbum dei ( quoth i. o ) ego nescio quid sit , aut deceant nos fanatici quid illud dicendum sit , &c if the declaration of the will of god , i.e. the scripture , be not the word of god , i know not what it is , or let the fanaticks teach us what we may call it ; these and many more to the like tune are the eminent titles , which i.o. not by a metonymy , but in truth as their proper priviledge , and real right , attributes in words at length , and not in figures to the outer scriptures , these are the lofty terms , wherein in throughout all his treatises he treats on their behalf , not with all others only , that are his opposers in other matters , but with the qua. also , who own the scripture in its own proper name , use , and place , and own the truth written of to be the word much more , then he doth himself , but about the scriptures oppose him only as to these his childish thoughts : such are the high , rigid , unrighteous , strickt streins he stands upon , and stickles in , and that so stifly , that he is minded either to win all , or lose all , and if he be not owned as stiling of the scripture truly and properly , when he stiles it by the names of other things , which truly and properly it is not , he will no more own it under its own true and proper names of writing , letter , scripture , but make himself altogether ignorant of these as if hee had quite forgotten , and could in no wise call to minde , that hee hath any other names at all whereby it can be called , save those undue ones of his own imposing . now when a man begins to swell out with his wind of doctrine into such a bubble as knows no bounds , its time to blow him out ; and when he grows into such a giddy , greedy , hydropical humour , as not to know what ground he stands on , nor how to stand still , and sit down satisfied when hee is well , nor well to understand when he hath enough , nor to slack his thirst with a just and lawful allowance , its good — venienti occurre morbo : danda est elleboritali pars maxima avaro . as there is no reason that he should have all he desires , so it s but reason that his brain be purged from such excrements , as occasion such extraordinary extravagancies , that if he will never be otherwise then so fantastically fanatical , yet hee may insanire cum ratione , be moderated at least as to his height of madness , be taken down a peg or two , and brought from his high garret , into a lower story about the scriptures , that if , he will have no nay , but they must needs be call'd the word it may be no otherwise then the cup is called the wine , which ( though , by a metonymy the wine is sometime called the cup yet is never , or very seldome , if at all . for my part i am free , rather then he shall take on ad ravimusque , and cry himself hoarse , and wrong himself ( as he doth ) with so much wrangling , and restless wrestling for the letter which he more loves to talk of , then lives the life of , and longs for , so that is not likely he will be at quiet , unless we still him by piping to the same tune with him at least a little , to please him so far to his profit , in order to the saving of his longing , as to allow him a little , i.e. so much leave as by the foresaid figure to call the glass window , or the lanthorn the light , which in truth and properly are not so ; but as that taylor which having an inch of cloath granted him for his minds sake , about so much as will serve for a pattern , incroaches so as to steal an ell or enough to make a suit of , and from top to toe cloaths himself therewith accordingly , wou●d have no wrong to have his goodly garment torn off , or else beaten well upon his back with his own yard ; so if i.o. who begs the whole question , be not pleased with his poor pittance , which yet is the largest allowance that truth it self allows us to allow him , but will be a chuser ( as beggars must not be , and his own carver , and carve out the scriptures , which is more then ( salva veritate ) we can give him , or he can justly take on him to do , into no less then a patern , a lydium lapidem , a touch stone of all truth , a standard for all spirits ( even that of god , by which it , and all spirits and scriptures else are to be tried ; to be most truly t●ied by , a rule , an immoveable , stable , perfect , the most perfect , the only rule of gods worship , and our obedience in matters of faith and manners , as ex. . s. , , . ex. . s. , . ex. . s. . ex. . s. . so that since the churches compleating of its canon , no revelations , internal spirit [ and consequently not that spirit of god ] visions , inward light , or word are to be expected or admitted , as any rule to walk by , the only guide and directory of all mens beleeving and living , so that who have not that have none at all of any sufficiency to lead them to life , though they should follow what light they have from god vouchsafed them to the utmost . so that there is no principle ( to speak in his own words , t. . c. . s. . ) or means of discovery of the saving doctrine , or sacred truth , no other rule or measure of judging or determining any thing about or concerning it , but only that writing from whence it is taken , the revelation of it being expressed only in that writing , up●n supposs●ion of any corruption in which , the saving doctrine , truth , or word of god , as at first given out from god , which say i , whatever becomes of the scripture is ever entire , and for ever incorruptible , and unquestionably uncorrupt , pet. . cannot be evinced unquestionably to continue entire and incorrupt , hee must then bee fed , as himself and his fellow unlearned learned ones do feed their poor , blinde , p●r●-blinde , unlearned people , viz. with a bit and a knock , and bee kept close to so much as reason and scripture can well spare him , be caned into a just compass with his own canon , and rapt into the right measure he runs out of with the rule and measure of his making , and bounded within the due bounds of equity , which , beyond all measure , he breaks beyond for the bare bibles and letters sake , by that letter and book it self , which is called though by i.o. the word of god , tr. . ch . . s. . yet by it se●f never so honourably at all , but only by such like titles , as a declaration , letter , scripture , book or bible . and if he shall go on undervaluing that antient covering of christ the light of the world , and the armour of his light , which is unchangeable , and which the true church , which hath the moon , and all such moveable and changeable things , as the best outward writings are , under her feet , stands ever cloathed with , rom. . , . eph. . , . col. . . . rev. . . casting it away as some old menstruous cloath , cast clout , or rotten rag , as he doth while in his imparralleld both ignorance and impudence he flerts at it , as if 't were a meer puppet patcht up of shreds , as a fictitious imaginary christ fain'd in the fancies of fanatick fools and mad men , nescio quod lumen , quos , enthusiasmos quem deum , &c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vere nihil , ex . s. . ex. . s. . . ex. . s. , . and rejecting that covering of the spirit of god , which wo be to him that is not covered with , or is covered with any other , isa. . . to cut out the outward scripture , and grave out the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into a g●rment , into an idol covering to himself , stealing words from thence , and therewith cloathing himself which will once wax old as a garment that is moth eaten , and at last ( being old , yea oldness it self though younger the spirit , and not the antient newness of the spirit , wherein the true worship and service stands ) is to vanish as an idel , that must go to the moles & bats , & as the brazen serpent be taken down , and among other idols of mens earthly elements , wordly rudiments , and carnal ordinances that were good in their own times and places yet but imposed till the time of reformation , be sent away with , get ye hence , isa. . . , . rom. . . heb. . . , . it s high time to strip i.o. naked , and discover his shame , which is seen by such as live in the light through his covering , which is a prate of words about the scripture , and other things which yet he knows not , and to summon him to sit in silence before the lord undressing himself out of his stollen ornaments , which till he doth he shall not know what a work of spoyling the lord hath to do unto him till it come irresistably upon him . and if hee shall flye out so far in his whifling words as to call the letter [ which to the light bears the same , and no better proportion then that of the lanthorn to the candlelight ] the light , as the name that is proper to it ; and flye up higher yet till according to his flashy fancy thereof he affirms it in print ( as hee doth ) before the world that not only the word of god written of in the writing , which none denies so to be , but the writing it self also ( which he means well-nigh in every place by that terme the word , or else hee strikes beside the iron , and lies hammering on the anvil , beating the air , and meaning another matter then that hee meant when he began , and makes men beleeve that he means all along , which is no more to his purpose then if he meant nothing by it at all ) is an illuminating , shining , spiritual light ; and higher yet , preferred above the light of the sun , t. . c. . s. , . the most glorious light in the world ; and higher yet , the sun one dayes light of which is unspeakably more then that of seven others as to the manifestation of the glory of god , t. c. . s. . a sun that more eminently then any inferiour fire discovers and evidences it self by such properties as it hath , viz. light , and heat , and power , t. c. . s. . and c. . s. . . and much more of such like high strains i.o. strikes up in , till he stretcheth the bare letter so far upon the ●enters as to strain it into 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and make it even every thing that the true word , and light within is , when as howbeit it hath its excellency above other writings as an instrument , yet , as to these peculiarities and precious prerogatives of the living word , is vere nihil ; then i must summon i.o. as warm as hee seems to himself to sit , and as much as he seems to see by the painted flame of his fained fire , and the sparks of his own kindling , that if he know no other way to salvation then the scripture , and own not the light as the way , which the scripture speaks of ; this he shall have at the lords hand , hee shall lye down in sorrow . finally , [ to persue yet a little further , and prosecute our present matter under the metaphor of the parliament and the house ] if a man should arise and stand up , and contend that the house the parliament meets in is the parliament properly , and none shall perswade him to beleeve otherwise , but he will try it out with them that allow him to call the house by a figure , or metonymy of the thing containing for the thing contained , so as to say this house is the parliament ; and will say the parliament is the proper name of the house , and it may properly challenge that to it self , and they rob it of its true and due name , and are enemies to both the parliament , and the house , and traytors , that will not so own it to be ; and shall say , die mihi , &c. tell me what it is to be called , if not so [ not heeding that himself calls it the house where the parliament sits ] and that that is the most proper name of it : i should judge that man utterly unfit to be chosen a parliament-man , or , if he should be chosen , as unmeet to meet there among the rest , as in regard of his clergy-ship , i.o. himself once chosen to that honour ( as i hear ) was thought unmeet to meet among them . or ( to prosecute the matter rather under that metaphor of the lanthorn and the light that shines in it , with which the letter and the light , the writing and the word doth so exactly correspond and hold proportion ) if there should appear such a man as would not be contented by the fore-mentioned metonymy only to call the lanthorn the light it self , which makes out it self thereby , and other things also to the view of others , but stand up to contend tooth and nayl , that the lanthorn is the very light in very deed , and ought so to be denominated , as that which really is so , yea and every inch of it from the top to the very bottome , or else it is spoyled of its own glorious due and proper name , and denied to be what it is , and abused and depressed quite below it self , debased and disgraced at their peril of mens utter r●ine for their damnable , unbeleef , though they beleeve , own and acknowledge it to be a very special good , serviceable , profitable , clear , useful and perfect lanthorn above all other lanthorns , as to all ends and purposes for which it was at first made and framed , unless they see it with such eyes as his own , and beleeve it with himself to be veraciter , the real light and only rule and guide of the way , that mafests both it self and all things else that are needful to be seen to all such as are ne●r to , and within the sight of it ; and as concerning the light it self , which reveals both it self and the lanthorn , and the dark room also round about , wherein it shines and shews it self , and other things , as well , yea more brightly when it s beheld immediately , and is abstracted from the lanthorn , which it reveals , and in which ( to say the truth ) it self is more properly vailed then revealed ( * for the light or new testament is vail'd in the old , the old letter revealed in the new ) will not beleeve there is any such thing , nor without impatience hear the testimony of those that testifie of it unto him , and tell him that he is mistaken , 't is not the lanthorn that enlightens the room ( as he supposes ) for that is , though transparent , yet a dark body of it self , that can no more by and of it self without somewhat else , i.e. the light to manifest ) evidence either it self , or other things , then a stool or chair , or any such opacous body like it self , but it is another thing within it that shews it self in some measure through it , and ( as the whole room and all things therein are by it ) most evidently seen when it stands and shines in the room , and is severed from it , and that its that light only , and not the lanthorn , that can properly challenge to it self that name of light , and that the lanthorn under no consideration whatsoever , whether formally considered in its own proper nature as an instrument made into that form of of a lanthorn , of such materials as wood , horn , tin , glass , or the like , nor yet quatenus containing the light in it , * either i● , or can properly be said to be the light at all , but the man will rather vilifie and utterly nullifie the light for the lanthorns sake , so that men become his enemies for telling him the truth about it , and his hand is up , and at work against every man , whose hand is against his crude conceptions , stigmatizing them in print , as poor , erroneous , foolish , fanatical , knaves , ex. . . deluded dreamers , &c. and belying the light , as a meer ●ained , imagined peece of business , a figment of fanaticks , fanaticisme , enthuss ●isme , dotage , ex. . s. . nelcio quid , vere nihil : and moreover if the said man will not only positively assert , but also not blush to profess in effect , that if the lanthorn be not to be called the light he knows not what to call it , and thereupon call out to such as deny it to tell and teach him what the lanthorn is to be called , if it be not properly to be called the light , saying you must either call it the light , aut doceat nos aliquis quid dicendum id sit ; and lastly shall not blush to put himself upon the proof thereof against , all that shall gainsay the lanthorn to be the light , and that in no better then such a piteous , either flatly false , or foul and fallacious manner as here under followeth , viz. . the lanthorn doth sufficiently evidence it self to be the light ; therefore most assuredly , unquestionably , incontroleably , infallibly , the lanthorn is the light , by which men must see , or not at all ; in which enthememe the antecedent is as most assuredly , unquestionably , uncontroleably , infallibly false , as i.os. saying that the letter doth so evidence it self to be the light , and consequently the conclusion , yet this is i.os. way , p. , . for thou triest it out in these termes , which are the truest , though the more thou keepest to them , the more false thy propositions , as to the matter asserted in them , both are and do appear , viz. the letter , the scriptures , the vvriting , with every tittle and iota that is therein , arguing ( as aforesaid ) thus the scriptures do abudantly , infallibly , incontroleably , manifest themselves to be the vvord of god : therefore we know the scriptures assuredly to bee the word of god , tr. . c. . s. . &c. s. . which argument is fair , and not fallacious , yet its frame , not more fair , then its antecedent flatly false understood as it must be by thee ( if there be at all such thing as uniformity in thy two enlish treatises , and not so much noniformity as that we may not safely judge of thy meaning in that word scriptures in one place , by thy own expression and explanation of it in another ) of the writing , or the written letter , and the transcribed tittles and iotaes of it , the falsity of which antecedent , as uttered in such open termes , being not unlikely seen by thy self to be too obvious to be seen by others , thou fetchest it about in a way of fallacy , acting , arguing minus caste , but magis cause from this foundation . . or else thus , viz. the light in the lanthorn , tr. . c. . s. . doth evidence it self infallib●y to him that is not blinde to be the light. therefore the lanthorn is , and is assuredly known to be the light ; in which the antecedent is most true , but the consequence denied , as no less false and fouly fallacious , then the other is true , and as non-sensical a non sequitur as t is to say , the light declared of in the letter , is known to bee the word or light , which is fallacia consequentis , yet this is i.os. way of arguing , viz. by this light in the scripture for which we contend , doth the scripture make such a proposition of it self as the word of god , that whoever rejects it , doth it at the peril of his eternal ruine . therefore wee know , and others may bee assured that the scripture is the vvord of god. in which argument , mulier formosa superne definit in piscem . the antecedent is most fair and true , let him be anathema that denies the light in the scripture to be the word of god , but the consiquence is fouly false ( fallacia consequentis ) and consequently the conclusion , for it follows not , because the light in the scripture or vvord of god declared in it is so , that therefore the scripture it self is the word of god. or else . thus , viz. that which doth evidence it self to be the light is the light , but the lanthorn , the light doth evidence it self to be the light. therefore wee may assuredly know that the lanthorn , the light is the light. which argument were it urged interrogatively thus , viz. doth not the lanthorn the light evidence it self to be the light ? therefore is not the lanthorn the light ? were fallacia plurium interrogationum , the fallacy whereby one thing is askt of two things at once , which is true of one of them but false if affirmed of both ; but formed positively 't is fallacia , either divisionis , whereby the sophister concludeth that to be true of two things joyned together as one , which is true of but one of them , i.e. of the light , considered figillatim , or a part ; or else petitionis principii , or a disputation exfalso supposit is from a false supposition of that which is not , or of that to be granted which is not granted , but remains as the main matter yet to be proved , viz. that the lanthorn and the light are all one : which yet is the way of i os. proving the scriptures to be the word and light , tr. . c. . s. . the scripture or written word of god , and s. . the scripture , the word of god is light , therefore we may assuredly know that the scripture is the w●rd of god. or else . thus ( making no express mention of the lanthorn at all , which is the main subject that is to be proved to be the light ) viz. if the light doth uncontrolably evidence it self to be the light , then we do infallibly know that the light is the light , and properly so called . but the light doth uncontroleably evidence it self to be the light. therefore we infallibly know that the light is the light , and properly so called , which is i.os. manner of speech sometimes , tr. . c. . s. . the word of god is furnisht with innate arguments for the manifestation of it self , i , e. to be the word of god. so s. , , , , , . where ever the word comes , there is a sufficiency of light in it to evidence to all the authority of god , i. ● . that its the word , and evidence of truth , commending it self to the conscience of men : no want of light in the truth it self . the word makes a sufficient proposition of it self where it is ; leave the word to men and if it evidence not it self to them , it is because they are blinded . so tr . c. . s. . thy word is truth , s. . over all his name god magnifies his word ( in all which places in an honest way of proof of the scripture to be the word of god , that term of scripture should have stood in the stead of that terme the word of god , but then the falseness had been obvious therefore we infallibly know the word of god is the word of god , and properly so called . in which argument a man may take his choice of fallacies , and of two call it which he pleases , or both if he will , and do him no wrong whose it is , for as there is a begging of the grand question in the dispute , and a taking it aforehand for granted , which is not granted but denied , and to be proved , viz. that the lanthorn is the light , the writing the word , which is called petitio principii , so there is a concluding aliud a negato , another thing , which is owned , and not contradicted , nor gainsayed , viz. that the light is the light ; when the thing denyed , and to be proved , i.e. that the lanthorn is the light , the writing the word , is not affirmed in the conclusion at all , which is called ignoratio elenchi , when that is inferred as contradictory to the thing denied , which doth in no wise contradict it . or else . thus , viz. the lanthornquatenus it contains the light may be the light . therefore the lanthorn may be said to be the light. which argument is fallacious , being a dicto secundum quid , ad dictum simplicitor ; for it follows not in any wise ( if we should yeeld as we need not ) that as it contains the light , the lanthorn may be said to be the light , that therefore it may properly be said so to bee , much less that the light is the proper name of the lanthorn ; which is that which is undertaken to be proved by i.o. for hee from secundum quid , argues , and sayes , the letter , non respectu literae scriptae , as it is scripture , but quatenns , &c. as it contains the divine truth , is , the word of god , therefore the letter is the word of god simpliciter , and the vvord of god is its proper name and nature . i say if the said man shall not only flye up thus into the height of falshood in his assertion of the lanthorn to be the light , the letter to bee the vvord , decrying that altogether which is so indeed , but also drive on his proof and evidence thereof in such a sorry way of either down-right falsity , or evident fallacy and deceit as this is , though i should not dare to deal any otherwise then fairly and openly with this man , if i should come to argue all the utter untruths utttered by him about the lanthorn back again upon ( as by and by i am to syllogize back upon i.o. his false tales about the scripture ) and though i desire not that any man should bee caught with any other then that godly guile whereby paul caught many out of the deceit , yet whether he that deals thus treacherously doth not deserve when he hath done , ex lege talionis , to be dealt treacherously withall , isa. . . let wise men judge , and according to their judgement let such fools act and execute , which i now am none of , among whom , fallentem fallere non est fraus , to deceive the deceiver is no deceit . however thus much i shall make bold to say of the man aforesaid , that t is fit he should bee told barely of his bruitishnes , and fully forewarned of both his falsness and his folly , that he fall not into the like for the future , and if he be indeed so blinde as he makes himself , and so mean of memory as not to remember any name , whereby the lanthorn or letter can bee called , but that name of the light and vvord though himself calls it not the light or word only , but by the name of lanthorn , letter , or scripture also save that trapezantius-like , who in a long fit of sickness forgot his own name , i.o. forgets himself , and heeds not that himself often calls the letter , as others do , by its only due and proper name of letter or scripture ) 't is fit he should be plainly told what to call it , and minded of it , as i here do tell and minde i.o. who calls to the qua. to tel him what to call the letter , that the name of lanthorn , by which ( though he forget that hee doth so ) himself doth call the lanthorn , and the name of scripture , by which he [ though he● forgets it ] calls the scripture , is a more proper name then those of light , and the word of god , and the most proper names that can possibly bee given to them . and if for all this he will obstinately oppose the truth , and wilfully wa'k on without wisdome , then nescio quid indeed , the dotage being so deeply dyed into him , that its scare like to depart , if he be brayed in a morter , i know not what more to say , but nescioan anticcyram ratio illidestinet omnem . now i.o. ne kideas be not so merry about the mouth , for such a man there is , and nigher to thee too then thou thinkest he is , so nigh that thou canst not step an inch from him -- nete quaesiveris extra , hee is a well known to thee as any man in thy cloaths , and thou canst not bee ignorant of him , if thou be not willingly ignorant of thyself , yea verily , thou art the man that art found in that folly and falsehood that is aforesaid about the lanthorn and the light , as is shewed so abundantly above , that there needs little more to be said in proof thereof . tu dominus , tu vir , aut doceas nos , quid sibi vuls santa blateratio & mugitus , &c. what means such a bl●ating and bellowing out for the letter ? such a pleading it to be the true light , which it doth but plead for ? such a striving to have it stiled the light ? and the meer writing and every tittle of it to be called the word of god ? which bears in truth , caeteris paribus , but such a reference to the true light and word of god respectively , as the lanthorn doth to the light of the candle which is set up and held forth in it : quid sibi vuls detesta●io , execratio tanta , &c. what means such direful detestation , extr●am execration , and thundring out of little less then anathama maranathaes against the light within , and word within , and all that confess to it , as i.o. himself doth too , but that hee forgets it , and so curses himself by craft , ex. . s. . as fantastical , foolish , deluded , enthusiastical enemies to , denyers and reproachers of the scripture , because they deny the letter to bee that light and word of god , which as through a lanthorn , glass or vail , and not so brightly , but more dimly , then when viewed with open face as shining in the heart , are seen and shew themselves through it ? siccine se gerunt ministri lucis sicut vosmet vos geritis o ministri literae ? tantaene a nimis caelestibus irae ? quid sibi vuls tanta terminorum transpositio ? verborum ista tua mutatio , mussitatio , mangonizatio , &c. supradicta ? if there bee not such a man , and i.o. be not he , teach us i.o. plainly what thou meanest by that peeping and muttering out of thy minde ? by that mumbling and fumbling in such foul fallacious wayes about things , wherein if thou wert not minded to mask over thy meaning that men may not minde too much where thy lame cause halteth , nor finde where its false and falters thou mightest have made it ( fairer in it self , i cannot say , for the fairer and fuller thy openings of it are , the falser and fouler it appears , but ) tenfold fairer to bee seen in its falsness and foulness then now it is : tell us what means that mess of medley , that mangonization and mixture thou makest of both thy matter , and thy meaning ? that tohu vabohu ? that tangled and tangling kinde of talk that thy treatises do consist of , wherein not only like him that talks up the lanthorn into the name of the light , and talks down the light as nothing , thou triest to turn the outside inwards , and that which should be uppermost downwards , i.e. the light within , which is the truth it self out of doors , and the outward letter , which is but a writing of it , in its room , place , power , use , and name , but also in the proof and prosecution of that most subsenseless subversion dost in one place or other ( one place well compared with another ) subvert thy self by thy own sayings and unsayings ( how much more i cannot say but ) little less i dare say then twenty times over , tumbling about like a bull in a net , turning things to and fro , transposing thy termes , and introducing the prime praedicate in place of its own prime subject , one while using the terme scripture , letter , writing , which ( witness thy ●itle pages ) is the sole subject expected by thy reader according to thy intimation of no less , to be proved to be the word of god , and treated on without varying from it under that terme of scripture , letter , writing ; other while in thy very argumentation for the truth of thy untrue affirmation , which is that the scripture in esse both reali & cognoscibili is the word , and in answer to that queston how is it known that the scripture is the word of god ? promiscuously putting all these termes , viz book , faith , bible , truth , writing , doctrine , letter , light , scripture , word of god , declaration , minde , will of god , and things declared together again , as if 't were already out of question , which is the matter in question , that these are all one thing and termes synonymous , and compounding , and confounding them into one chaos or lump of confusion , chopping and changing , popping out , and pulling in , mounting up , and then dropping down , as if thou wert sensible of being got too high , then hiding they head again , and there [ as those that are afraid out of their close places ] moving out of thy ho'e , as a worm of the earth , and twining every way , fair or soul to secure the main chance , and to make good thy bad cause , and carry what thou contendest for , which yet when all 's done , beside the getting to thy self among seeing men the blot of blindness , ignorance , weakness , folly falshood , fallacy , and confusion , thou wilt , which way soever thou orderest or disorderest thy arguments for it , even by thy own management of it bee on the losing hand , till at last thou hast lost it altogether : for though thou makest as much of it to the utmost as another can well do , that hath taken on him to make an ill business good , yet the utmost thou makest of it , if well examined , is as little as 't is nought toward the bettering of it , and very much of it at least , but very little better then what is urged above about the lanthorn : and when thou hast turned every stone , and hast wrought a long time till thou hast tyred thy self with talking to have the letter , and every jot and tittle of it to be the word of god , till thou canst scarcely go one jot further , or adde one tittle more to the countenancing of thy cause , thou even givest out and lyest down , and as ( t.d. had the wit to do at first , and c.f. was forced to do at last ) in a manner givest it in , and layest it down so very fairly to thy opposers , that all thy after strugling for it again is to no purpose to prove thee any further a friend for all thy ample appearances pro scripturis , then the qu. are , with whom thou art fain to fall in one , and say as they say in thy ex. . s. . s. . and , as thy fellow fighters with us about it do all confess , that the scripture no otherwise●is , nor is to be called the word of god , then respectu subjectae materiae , or divinae veritatis in earevelatae seu contentae , non respectu literae scriptae , non formaliter quatenns scripta , in respect of the matter or divine truth therein declared and contained only , not in respect of the writing or written letter , not formally , as 't is scripture ; and that in innumerit paene locis ubi verbum dei dicitur , &c. in those [ well-nigh innumerable ] places of it , where the word of god is said to be preacht , publisht , multiplied , and received the holy truth , or matter of the scriptures is intended , but not the scripture it self formally considered ; and when the word is said to be nigh us in our hearts , and in our mouths , rom. . . and the word of christ to dwell in us , t is confest by thee that that word of faith is not litera scripta , is not the writing , but the truth written , which is another thing then the scriptures ; neither do the qua. say ( as thou there belyest them in thy lame laying down of their argument ( which is of force to stop thy mouth however as thou rendrest it weakly , much more if urged in its full strength ) that the vvord within , is not verbum scriptum , for it is the same word that is written , but it is not the writing , not the scriptura , not the litera scripta , between which , and the verbum scriptum thou art or wilt seem so silly , as to make no distinction : so then if the scripture , formaliter , formally considered is not ( as secundum te it is not ) the vvord of god then however thou scruest it into that name and thing , by secundum quid , yet simpliciter , really , truly it s not so at all , nor so properly to be called , for forma dat esse rei , and is that per quod res est id quod est ; and if it have not the form of the vvord of god , then the scripture hath not the being or true nature of the word of god ; much less is the word of god ( as thou improperly sayest it is ) its proper name . chap. v. now as to i.os. third argument whereby to evince the scripture to be the only most perfect rule , standard , absolutely sole sufficient way of revelation of gods will , &c. and so consequently the word of god , it s on this wise , ex. . s. . * viz. j.o. the spirit of god most heavily damns and rejects all additaments to the word of the scriptures , i.e. the scriptures with him , of what sort soever , and specially all those wayes and means of knowing god and communion with him , boasted of by the fanaticks , chiefly conference with angels , col. . . heb. . , . cor. . . luke , . revelations not only alienas , containing different doctrines , gal. . . but alias also , pet. . . other new revelations of the same doctrine then those individual revelations of it that were made to them that wrote the scripture , rev. . . heb. . . cor. . . col. . . and col. . . and lastly , that inward spirit the fanaticks talk of , or internal light common to all , joh. . . isa. . . pet. . . rep. surely i.o. thou wast in some deep divine dream when thou wrotest these thy divinity disputations , or else thou wouldest never have divined out such a deal of darkness and falsehood at thou hast done , or have lent such , as thou wouldst have to own what thou writest for light and truth , a little more of that thou eallest light , even a little more of that letter a of scripture thou pleadest for , to discry it by , or something , or whether thou deemest i will not say that men seeing a number of scriptures quoted by the dozen ( for so 't is here as 't is in sundry places above spoken to , excepting that counting such as are twice over recited , here is thirteen to the dozen ) of which it might be said , nos numeri sumus , would make account of them by whole-sale to be all on thy side , and take account of them , not by weight , but number , without so much as looking otherwise on them then to see how many they are , but not heed either what they say , or whereof they affirm ; but some odde blinde business or other is i th' wind , as the reason of it i know full well ; for there 's not any of all the texts of thy own tumbling a top of one another that i meet with yet , either in this dozen , or those before , that hath the least tendency toward such a thing as thou intendest them to in thy meer nomenclateral citation of them . thou intendest by all these to prove there is now no other way of knowing god , of communion with him , but the scripture , that there is now not only no other kinde of revelation of the gospel , save such as was made of it to the writers of the scripture , but also none of that same kinde of revelation of it , as was made to them to be expected , or on pain of damnation and cursing , pretended to by any person by any means , whether angels internal spirit , that inward light the qua. talk of , or other medium whatsoever ; but only that very individual revelation of it , that is made in so much of the letter as is now extant and bound in your bibles , is , and must be the only standard , rule , and measure , to which no scripture must be added , tho bounds of which no man for ever , nor angel is for ever to inlarge , so as to write any more , though of the self-same doctrine or gospel [ mark ] on so high a pretence as from the self-same true , inward illumination , vision , in the same true light , or immediate motion , or inspiration of the same holy spirit , on pain or peril of utter rejection and execration . do the texts set by thee in that section , even all of them together , prove that general ignorant , audacious assertion of thine ? doth any one of them respectively prove the particulars thereof , that it is particularly alleadged to ? doth gal. . . because it is said , if we , or any man , or angel from heaven bring any other gospel then what we have preached to you , twice over , let him be accursed , prove him cursed that writes more scriptures of the same gospel by the same spirit ? if so , was not iohn hereupon accursed , that wrote more scriptures of it after paul was dead by a new revelation , not the same ? and was not paul , if he wrote any epistle , after to galatia cursed out of his own mouth by saying , though wee bring any other gospel , let us be accursed , if that were his meaning , ' that no more scripture must be written ? is every new revelation , and new writing , by way of revelation of the old gospel , a new gospel ? or doth rev. . . prove there must be no more scripture nor revelation within , nor new outward scripture and revelation of the gospel by motion from the spirit after by iohn , because he saith , if any shall adde to the words of this booke , god will adde the plagues of it to him ? said he therein any more then what was said long before , deut. . . . ulz. prov. . . adde thou not to his words lest he reprove thee , and thou be found a liar : were all those adders to gods word , or words , and reprobate , and liars ( as they must be if the scriptures bee gods word , and the adding of more scripture be additament to his word ) that added all that scripture which was written after deuteronomy and the proverbs ? and if the scripture were the word of god , is not taking away his name out of the book of life threatned to him that takes away from the words of that book , as well as plagues to him that addes ? and so ye , in that ye discanonize most of what was writ there by the prophets , are discarded from the comforts of the scripture by the places of you own quotation ? doth col. . . twice over cited , and allowed two votes in this section , vote either of those particulars it is cited for ? doth the spirit there condemn angelorum alloquia , alias , called by thee colloquia angelica , s. . all conference with angels ? or only that worshipping of angels , forbid more expresly ( as i hinted to thee before ) in rev. . . . . where i also told thee of the lawfulness of talking with angels , or receiving of revelation of the truth from angels , unless thou wilt tax such as received the law , which was given by the disposition of angels ; and daniel , and mary , and zachary , cornelius , and paul and iohn , that wrote the revelation , and christ himself , who all were spoke to , and ministred to by angels ? were these all guilty of sin and condemnation ? look again i.o. on the words in english , which thou greekest out ( perhaps to the further hoodwinking of idiots that ken not greek , lest they should finde out thy folly , who settest it for a cypher , if rendred in plain latine which to give thee the reading as they stand in your translations , run thus , let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility , or worshipping of angels ? is the talking of angels to men here deeply damned by the spirit of god as thou dreamest ? and . what 's that text to prove there must be on pain of cursing no additament of more scripture or writing to that scripture that is in your bibles ? with pretence of immediate revelation of the same doctrine , truth , or gospel there taught , from the same inward light , and holy spirit , which is the second purpose ; for which it s cited a second time ? and again as to heb. . . . cited heb. . , . ( for thus thou citest that twice to the . same purposes with col. . ) what hath that in it to the evincing the spirits damning of either all talk with angels , or addition of more scripture thereof from the revelation , motion , or inspiration of the same holy spirit , to that scripture of the truth that is now truss'd up , as the close of the whole councel of god , that ever must be declared in writing , or counted upon as part of your canon , according to the clergies councel , who first caused that consignation of it by book-binders within the bounds of your bibles ? thus run the words , god who at sundry times , and in diverse maners spake in times past the fathers to the prophets , hath in these last dayes spoken to us in his son , who is better then the angels , &c. must not his eyes be out that sees any such things hinted at here as those above , the proof of which i.o. intends by this quotation ? because angels are here named inferiour unto christ , therefore anathematized is he that hears or heeds any thing that shall be spoken to him by an angel , though he reveal the same truth , and not another , seeing that truth is already written in the scripture ; yea cursed be hee from henceforth even for ever ; there 's one of i.os. conc●usions , who consequently concludes iohn accursed that wrote the revelation from thenceforth , even after this of paul to the colossians , and the hebrews , were written , from whence forward i.o. drives his execration downward to this day ; sith the said iohn had his revelation immediately from an angel , by whom christ , who had it from the father , sent and signified it to his servant iohn , rev. ● . . and because christ is better then the angels , and god in these last dayes speaks in and by him , his only begotten son , the light of the world , the great shepherd and over-seer of the soul , whose own voice his sheep hear , warning all to hear him , to hear his voice in all things what ever he sayes on pain of being cut off from among his people , therefore the scripture must have no more writing , though of the same truth that is there , added to it on pain of damnation for ever : there 's the t'other of i.os. conclusions from heb. . from which conclusion i can much more clearly conclude that a cloud of darkness is drawn over i.os. understanding , and that a beam is in his eye , then draw such an untruth , as that no more scripture since iohns time was to be written by the holy spirits moving , and added to that , from that text , which tells the truth if i.o. would once heed it , viz. that the hour now is wherein god speaks to the sons of men , in , and by his own son , whom he hath given to be a light and leader , to all people wherein the dead must hear his voice , before ever they live to god , who since god speaks by him , and hee by his own light , spirit & voice in i.os. conscience , why doth not i.o. heed him then , but scoffe at him in his inward light and spirit the qua. call to , as at christum quendam imaginarium , infallibilem doctorem , nescio quod lumen , scu verbum internum nescio quem deum seu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , deoforsan quopiam melius , &c. for woe unto him that ever he was born if he repent not of it , but run from him to the letter , which doth but testifie of him , and call to him , in the reading and searching of which if he think he hears christs voice , and gods voice truly , then the scribes , that read the scripture as much as hee , could not be truly reprov'd ioh. . as not hearing it as they are by christ : and . i shall think hee is not only without his sense of spiritual hearing , but , as 't is shewed above of others in the like case , not so well as he ought to be in his natural wits and understanding . and as to that pet. . . which i insisted so lately , and so largely upon above , if there were the weight of one half grain in it towards the turning of the scales to his purpose , i would weigh it once again , but he that shall say these words , we have a more sure word of prophesie , to which yee do well if yee take heed as unto a light shining in a dark place , till the day dawn , and day star arise in your hearts hath ought in it [ if the letter of scripture were there meant , as i have shewed it is not ] to prove there must bee no more scripture written ( as from the spirit ) after that verse was written on pain of damnation , [ as i.o. doth , for that 's his drift in quoting it ] doth no more condemne the qua. by that text of peter , then he damn iohn himself , whose revelation was written [ as by the spirit ] no little while after that . as to that cor. . . spoken to once before where i met with it , ex. . s. . yet twice here cited by i.o. to the self-same purpose as before , from which because paul there sayes hee would have none think of him , and apollos above what he wrote of himself ; and him , as no more ( however idolized by the church ) then meer ministers by whom they beleeved . i.o. concludes there must be no addition of more scripture to his canon . rep. if any man be minded to look so long till hee finde a pin in a pack of wool [ which he may sooner do , if lost there , then finde i.os. conclusion coming from the text aforesaid ] let him look till he is weary for mee , who will meddle no more with that . and the same summarily , and in short , say i of pet. . . another text of i.os. urging , for when they speak great swelling words of vanity , they allure through the lusts of the flesh , through much wantonness , those that were clean escaped from them who live in errour . rep. he that will spend so much time as to study on that text till hee can duely draw either of these doctrines from it , viz that the holy spirit downrightly damns , . all addings whatsoever of more scripture or writing , as from the spirit , to that scripture now in the bible , which our clergy calls their canon . and . all the wayes and means of knowing god , and of communion with him , even that internal spirit , and light in the conscience ( to use i os. phrase ) boasted of by the qua. as in some measure communicated to all men , shall most assuredly have his labour for his pains . the same may be said of ioh. . . beloved beleeve not every spirit , but try the spirits whether they he of god or no , for many false prophets are gone out into the world . rep. what damnation is thundred out here at all to the adding of any thing , or revelation that is true , to the outward writing or scripture , where the scripture is neither talked on , nor intended ? he talks of spirits there , and not letters ; much more what follows thence to the condemnation of the inward light and spirit , the qua. talk of , call to live , and walk , and hold communion with god in now according to the counsel of the scriptures , as abel , noah , and all holy men of god did from the beginning before the scripture was ? is this to adde to the scripture , and to fall under condemnation from that scripture , and from that text too , as adders to the scripture , to hold forth , preach , publish , in the movings of the spirit , and therein also to commit to writing the holy truths revealed in the light and spirit of god they obey and walk in ? and to call men by voice , scripture or writing , as they are moved , to live and beleeve in the light , to walk not after flesh , but the holy spirit of god in them which reproves them of sin , and lusts against their flesh , as they did of old , who wrote in the same light and spirit of god , that outward scripture ye more scrible for , then walk by , so long as ye walk not by the light and spirit as it bids you ? doth not the scripture call to beleeve and walk in the light and spirit , and not in the darkness , and in the flesh ? and where is that spirit and light ? is it not within in the heart where the flesh and darkness dwells which lust against it ? and for as much as thou sayest here the spirit damns all wayes and means of knowing god , and communion with him beside the scripture . o thou elymas ! wilt thou not cease to pervert the right wayes of the lord ? doth not the scripture and spirit of god by it rather down rightly damn all them out of al' communion with god , let them jactitare , joy and boast never so much of their having the scriptures , that walk not in the said light the qua. testifie to , which thy self only , contrarily both to the scriptures and sound reason , and gods spirit also , damnest down as diabolical to the pit of hell who yet sometimes again confessest it to be of god and gods voice in nature , by which he reveals his minde to men , and that infallibly without the least contribution of strength , or assistance from without , and therefore surely without a letter ad exera , p , , , , . ) yea and rejectest with abhorrency and detestation , ex. . s. ? doth not the spirit by the scripture condemn them for lyars ( and such are all the formal professors of the letter that have got the good words to talk on for hire , and make a trade of , whose portion is the lake , while they are not under the power of the light , but hate it , and the holders of it out ) that pretend to communion with god out of the light ? and own 's it any other way or means of fellowship with god , but the light , saying , iob. , , , , . god is light , and in him is no darkness at all , if we say we have fellowship with him , and walk in darkness we lye , and do not the truth ; but if we walk in the light , as he is in the light we have fellowship together , and the blood of his son cleanseth us from all sin ? dost not thou then instead of light walk in obscurity , instead of brightness in darkness it self ? dost thou not grope for the wall yet like the blind , as if thou hadst no eyes and stumble at noon-day as in the night ? is not a mist upon thee already from the hand of the lord , so that thou seest not the sun , as it was on the false prophet act. . . , , . that sought to turn away the deputy from the faith , and from beleeving in the doctrine of the lord , which yet he could not do by all his mischievous subtilty , and to pervert the right wayes of the lord ? and now thou hast brought mee upon that text , iob. . . 't is true , hee bids the saints not beleeve every spirit , but try the spirits , for many false spirits and prophets were then abroad , and as christ said , matth. . there should in the last time come false prophets , false christs , antichrists , even so ( witness iohn here , and also iob. . . ) they did come , and were even then already in the world , and have multiplied since then into a number numberless , and spawned themselves over the face of the whole europian earth , and more , so that all cities , countries , vniversities , ( so called ) parishes through christendome are even overflowed therewith ( the more shame for them that cannot see wood for trees , and how christ is now coming to consume the antichristian locusts of all sorts where they swarm , with the spirit of his mouth , and brightness of his coming in myriads of his saints , iud. . but rather dream they are now newly rising out of the bottomless pit , so i.o. ex. . s. . * and so mistake the true prophets to be them , who rather are armed with the light , and standing up in the might and power of the lord against them ) but let me ask thee i.o. what were they to try the spirits and the prophets by ? was it the letter or the light , the scripture or the spirit of god it self ? which of these two is the rule or touchstone of trial ? which is the iudge that must give the resolution , in whose sentence there must ultimately be a resting and undoubted discerning what spirit or prophet is of god , and speaks truth , and what is false , and comes with cunningly devised fables ? i know thou sayest p. , . the scripture and that alone we are sent to in this case to give the determination ; but ( saving thy single say so ) there is no evidence of any such matter either in this text , or any other , t is not denied by me , but the scriptures may bee searcht , and that that which is of god contradicts not them ; so the bere●●● did , who are commended for receiving the word first as it was spoken 〈◊〉 readiness of minde , and recorded as searching the scriptures also , but that on the account of which they beleeved the doctrine before they lookt into the letter , was the light in their own hearts , whereby then very conscience could witness it to be the truth , it answering to that of god in them , as face to face in a glass , and not the letter without , for being lookt on without the light and spirit of god it came from that gives to see into the mystery of it ( to say nothing here how the light and spirit within , only gives to know the letter to be more of god then the iewish talmud , or the turkish alcoran , the scripture answering to the eternall , unchangeable , infallible light of god in the conscience then those fables do ) the letter would have further blinded them from all beleef of the truth , as it did the old scribes , and doth the new that search it in the darkness of their own understandings , more then the bereans did , the letter being but such a history , record , and writing of certain outward things transacted in a ceremonial or temporary figure and type of some spiritual , inward , substantial , invisible , and eternal truth , as lookt upon by them that are not in some measure in that truth it self it in a figure calls to , and is the type of , benights the dark minds , and prejudices them more against the truth then if they had no outward letter at all , as the pillar of fire to israel that were on the inside thereof was a cloud and darkness to the egyptians that were on the backside , which is the reason why all sorts of porers on the outside of the letter , and backside of the bible , and professors , as well in separated assemblies as parochial , of the letter in the carnal commandements thereof are further hardned in hatred against the qua. the children of light , who are let and lead by the spirit and light of him , who only opens the seales to his disciples , into the inside of it , and into the power of the endless life , yea more then very heathens that never heard of any letter at all ; for to such as read the letter any other way but in the light and spirit that gave it forth by holy men , as animal men do , and therefore discern it not , it seems to contradict the things of the spirit , whereupon the apostles were counted blasphemers of the truth because they called men into it out of the types , and taught men to forsake moses testament that stood in outwards , viz. heb. . . eatings , drinkings of flesh , bread and wine , and divers baptisms , carnal ordinances , outward , or in the flesh , &c. which all had their institution , and were in being before christ crucified , who d● jure put an end to all these by the sacrifice of himself , though de facto used after by permission for a time in regard of peoples weakness at first to bear the total leaving them off ; for indeed to the lookers for the kingdome and coming of christ in outward observations , hee that seeks to bring them off from these , which decrease , to christ who increases , that they may witness him formed , and his image brought forth in them , seems to such ( as paul did to the foolish bewitcht ones of the galatians that hung in the letter , and stuck short of the spirit , thinking to be made perfect by the letter , and fleshly performances ) to bee a very enemy both to them and truth , and then most when he tells them most of the truth . i say then , 't is the spirit and light and not the letter by which doctrines , spirits , prophets true or false are to be tryed , neither is the spirit of god which was before it , so to stoop to the letter as to stand at the bar before the letter that is infer●●● 〈◊〉 it , and came from it , but both the letter and all false spirits , and their speakings , and it self , and its own also to bee tried , judged , and determined by the spirit of god , which judges all , and is not to be judged by any , which , as the light , discovers , discerns , and comprehends the darkness but is not discovered , discerned , nor comprehended by it : nor is this absurd as it may seem to some blinde ones , to say the speakings , writings , doctrines , things of gods spirit , as well as all false spirits and the things thereof are to bee tried by the spirit of god it self , for as the sun , outward , is that which shews both it self , and all things , and is not shewed by any thing but it self , and rectum is ever mensura sui & obliqui , that which is infallibly right is the rule and measure of manifestation of it self , and of all the wrong , and not , retro , any wrong , darke , crooked , doubtful , or fallible thing the rule of that , so the spirit and light of god , by , and from which , and that but remotely too through mens hands , the letter had at first , and now through fallible mens hands hath all its being , is the rule of trial for it self , and of the letter , and of all false spirits , prophets , doctrines , &c. yea it self , and all things are made manifest by the light , whether approveable or reprovable , works of flesh , or fruits of the spirit , as the letter sayes of it , gal. . eph. . yea what ever doth make manifest ( as the letter never doth , or can without the light , and the light doth often , and did thousands of years without the letter , and before it was ) it is the light : and if any other should , yet of all men i.o. cannot charge this on me as an idem per idem , to say by the spirit of god and the light alone , we must try the true light and spirit , and the false spirits and pretences to the names of light also , for i say no more in it then the truth of the true light and spirit , which himself sayes most falsely of the letter when p. . he asserts it to be the rule and standard , the touchstone of all speakings whatsoever , that that must speak alone for itself , which must try the speaking of all , but it self , yea it s own also . i.os. . argument to prove the scripture , and nothing else , the only most perfect rule and standard is this , viz. ea omnia quae examinari & probari debent , &c. all those things which ought to be examined and tried , yea which we are commanded to try , tanquam ad lydium lapidem , as 't were by some infallible touchstone by the scripture , whether they are true and agreeable to divine verity , or not , with free liberty , yea abs●lute necessity of rejecting them if not consentaneous to scriptures , those neither apart , nor joyntly considered , can be the rules or directories of gods worship , our faith and obedience , nor are upon their own account at all to be credited . but all revelations , visions , spirits , dreams , enthusiasms , we are commanded so to try , examine , and prove ; therefore those are no rules that are of themselves to be credited . rep. that argument , ( the minor of which is most false , and supposes that infallible spirit of god , to bee now subjected as some underling to a fallible letter now transcribed by weak men ) is founded on this text , iob. . . and two more only , beside those above spoken to , viz. cor. . . and thess. . . the first of which i know nor why i.o. cites it , it proving nothing to his purpose , because paul there quotes a text out of the law or letter , saying , in the law it s written with men of other tongues , and lips will i speak to this people , i.e. to the drunkards of ephraim , yet they will not hear , which first part hath not a tittle for him , but the latter part of it , much more against him then he is ware of , being not wise enough well to weigh it : and the second text with the two verses before , viz. quench not the spirit , despise not prophesyings , prove all things , rather against him , that the spirit , which is there mentioned , and not the letter at all , is that by which all things are to be proved . what is said above to that text in iohn shall ( as well it may stand as answer to the said sixth argument , with this only addition , that if we must go to the scripture for the trial of all spirits , even gods as well as others , then le ts go no further at first however , then that in hand , which tells us , that the true church , who is written to in that verse , wherein ( nor in any about it ) there 's not the least hint about the letter , had a secret taken whereby to know the spirit of truth , and the spirit of errour , vers● . which the world , and its priests and people have not , vers . ● every spirit ( quoth he ) that confesseth iesus christ to be come in the flesh is of god and every spirit that confesseth not this , is not of god ; and this is the spirit of antichrist , whereof ye have heard it should come , and even now is i● already in the world . riddle me i. o. if it be within thy reach , and from thence tell me which are the true , which the false spirits , which christs and gods , which antichrists , they that confess christ jesus to be come in the flesh , as the ●uardo , or they that deny the saviour , the anointed to be come in the flesh , as from the pope to the least outside , or nominal christian , and meer literal beleiver and professor , among the most reformed protestants ( save they who beleeve and live in the internal light and spirit with one accord all do . looking at , talking of , bel●eving the history of , expecting justification , sanctification , righteousness , salvation , all from christ only as he was made a man of outwa●d flesh and blood without them . and if i. o. say in vindication of himself in this , that that is the confession of jesus christ to be come in flesh , which every spirit that makes is of god , to beleeve the story of the incarnation , life , suffering , death , resurrection , &c , ( that is all truly related in the letter without , as 't was done in a figure of what was to be further , and more spiritually and mystically transacted in his true body the church whereof he is the head ) with a confident application of him , and of the benefit of all the righteousness he did in that person by every man to himself , as by way of computation and imputation , before he hath it indeed imparted or conveyed into himself ( for this is t.ds. and the whole brood of the back side beleevers , and the bastard christians saith and confession of christ to be come in the fle●h on the account of which they hope they are of god , and shall be saved , though they are far from witnessing or confessing the same christ , who is the wisdome , righteousness , light , power , salvation , and image of god to be begotten , conceived , formed , born , brought serth , incarnated , risen from the dead , living , and dwelling within themselves , where he hath lyen slain as an innocent lamb from the foundation of the world in their hearts , which therefore is to perish with the lust thereof , which inward witness of the words incarnation and dwelling in themselves they that were of god of old had iob. . . ( the word was made flesh , and dwels in us , and we saw his glory ) and all now have who are of god , and have not the vain hope of the hypocrite only , which is as the giving up the ghost when god comes to take a●●y his soul , job but that hope , iob. . . which is an anchor to the soul , s●re , and stedfast , entring into that within the vail heb . , , . which is christ himself in us the hope of glory , col . . known by them to be in all them who are not reprobates , cor. 〈◊〉 and still in that transgression and in that condemnation , which hath past already upon them , and is not now to them that are in christ , walking no more after the flesh , but after the spirit , rom. . . ) i say if i.o. judge with t.d. and others that that faith and confession ad extra only , is the faith and confession of christs incarnation , resurrection , &c. which proves them to be of god who have it , and them to be antichristian spirits who have it not : let him tell me whether there be any antichrists in christendome yea or nay ; i have hitherto taken it that our divines say the antichrists properly are no where else , and that there are many more antichrists then true christians ( naturâ , non nomine ) in the world called christian ; but seriously i know not where to finde them , if i.os. trial , judgement and discerning of spirits by the very scriptures themselves bee not very dark and undiscerning and confused , nor what spirits or prophets throughout all christendome are not of god , since papists and protestants of all sorts , prelatical , presbyterian , independent , baptists , seekers , kanters , and all other that i know of , as well as qua. [ who only of all the rest , witness that true , inward , saving , good confession of the lord iesus with the mouth , and beleeving in the heart , that god raised him from the dead [ as feeling him living there within themse●ves ] to which the promise of salvation is made , rom. . . and which every spirit that witnessesh , is of god , joh. . . ] do together with the qua. who own and deny not that ( as there bee some that falsely lay of them ) all confess , and really beleeve the truth of the outward history of christs coming in the flesh of that person that was born at bethlem , that lived and dyed and rose again at jerusalem , according to the true relation of the outward scriptures , and do also apply him and all his by that faith they have in the story of that person , and in the person at a distance from them , though never feeling the power of his light righteousness , and holy life within themselves : but i wot whether i.o. will own all these spirits , prophets and professors to be cordial beleevers , or all such confessors of that outward incarnation and resurrection of christ from the dead to be all of god or not , and in a present state of salvation thereupon , and not one of the outwardly beleeving , christ-confessing spirits , prophets , priests and professors abovesaid ( whereof the most are very prophane , false , deceitful liars , swearers , couzeners , cheaters , drunkards , riotous , glutt●ns , belly-gods , want●ns , whoremongers , idolaters covetous , proud persecutors of christ , every way abominable , and unchristian in their lives , few or none of which beleeve so much as that they must necessarily , or can possibly be purged perfectly from their sins till they dy● ) to be at all antichristian . if he say nay , these all shall not be saved , then the said outward faith in , and confession of christ , as without them , is not saving : if hee say yea , then first where is his personal election ? what need any personal sanctification of us as to our salvation ? what was personally in that man only that dyed and rose at ierusalem is enough for us so that none needs reside in us , let us eat and drink when we dye we shal be saved and live for ever . moreover what hath been said above may stand as a sufficient answer over the head of i os. fourth agument , which ( as most of them are one with another , in many matters in proof of which he cites over and over , again the same texts , so that one cannot well make a full end with one argument without some transition into another ) is very much coincident with this . the summe of which fourth is this , viz. if it be often commanded by god that we attend diligently to the scriptures , left we be turned aside from the truth and right knowledge of himself by seducing spirits , vain revelations , false teachers , &c. then the scripture is the most perfect rule , &c. but the first true , therefore the other , ex. . f. . the texts that prove the minor of this argument , quoth he , are so clear and plain that ad solem caecutiat necesse est , &c. he must needs be blinde toward the sun it self , who assents not to them in some of which also [ quoth he ] the certitude of the sacred word [ that is the scripture still with i.o. ] is preferred before the certitude ( as to the churches use ) even of true revelations and miraculous . rep yet two of them , viz tim. . , , , . & pet. . . many times a peece over repeated and supposed to supply almost every turn of i.o. how they serve not his turn at all is abundantly above discovered , whereupon i here quit them . another is so much misquoted , viz. ioh. . , , . that , as plain and clear as the sun as it is , he must be better skill'd then i that knows where to finde it at all . two more there are that make as much to i.os. purpose , as any two well-nigh can do , that speak contrary to it , and those are ioh. . . thess. . . the words of the first , which with those of . vers . are christs to the scribes , are these , had ye beleeved moses , yee would have beleeved me , for he wrote of me , but if ye beleeve not his writings , how shall ye beleeve my words . christ by true revelations of it from the father to him truly revealed the fathers will to the scribes which they received not from him but hated him for , ioh. . . . , . . . saying of christ , wee are none of his , we are moses disciples , we know god spake to moses , as for this fellow we know not whence he is , joh. : , , . christ tells them in effect that for all their prate and pretence to moses as their tutor , he rather was their accuser in whom they trusted , sith they in truth beleeved not moses , for [ a minori ad majus ] did you indeed beleeve moses , ye would much more beleeve me , quoth he , for he wrote of me , he sent , directed , and pointed you to me , for so he did , deut. . . saying of christ , a prophet will god raise to you , &c. him shall ye hear in all he sayes , who hears him not shall be cut off from his people , act. . , . . . but if you beleeve not his writings , wherein ye are bid to hear me , as the greater of the two , as the son in the house , where he was but the servant , then ye cannot beleeve my words . the summe in short is this , hee that heeds moses writings , must hear me , for moses bids them do so , he that beleeves what i say , doth what moses sayes ; he that beleeves either , beleeves both , he that beleeves not both , beleeves neither . but what of that ? what follows hence ? this , quoth i o. for that is the very end hee infers this text for , and the very conclusion he infers from it ; viz. that moses writings of christ are more sure , and of greater certainty , as to the churches use , then christs own words from his own mouth , or then christs revelations of gods minds to men , as revealed to him from the mouth of god , from the very bosome of the father : siccine ? itane ? is it so i o. indeed ? what the ou●●ard , remotely transcribed copies of the writings of the old servant , that put a vail over his face too , and spake so darkly in types and figures , and shews , and shadows , that 't was hard to behold stedfastly to what end he spake , more plain , and stedfast , and sure , and certain then the immediate voice , words , revelations of the son himself , whom moses called to hear , as coming and speaking more distinctly out of the very bosome of the father ? o the dotage of our vniversity doctors , the dimness of our divines ! who profess to dive daily and deeply into the scriptures , that make the dark writings , and dead letter and servant more clear and worthy , and useful to the church , then the express voice and words of the son , which are spirit , and life it self . i shall set but one scripture to face this fancy of i.o. and so leave , and let it stand to the shame of it self , and its father , heb. . vers . . to the . see and read it . thus of the first : the words of the second are these , be not soon shaken in minde , nor troubled neither by spirit , nor by word , nor by letter as from us , as that the day of the lord is at hand . rep. the business i.o. cites this in proof of is [ for this , and that next before are of those that are subscribed to that purpose ] that the certainty of the scripture is preferred before the certainty of true revelations and miracles ; but which way so much can be drawn , unless it be as i.o. draws iniquity with cords of vanity , and sin as it were with cart ropes , from that text is more then i can tell . paul , silas and timothy had told them it seems of the coming of the day of god , both by spirit , word and letter , they whose great hope lay in the comming of that day , like such as look and long for what they love , and are apt to thinke and hope it to be , as they would have it , did hope it to be nearer hand then it was , and fearing left , finding it further off then they thought , they might bee troubled , and shaken in minde , and failing in their faith of it , he gives them to understand the worst of it , that the best might the better help it self , that they should not mistake them in their doctrine about that day , as if they had said it was immediately to shine out upon them , and so waver in their mindes , flag in their faith , and be troubled with doubts , as if it would never come to them , because not so soon as they wisht it might , for there was a long night to interpose it self first , he wills them withall to remember v. . that he told them no less in the spirit by word of his mouth ( as now he doth over again by letter or writing ) when was present with them , howbeit , as that 's never long that comes at last , so that day would come at last to their salvation , and destruction of the man of sin ( who caused the night ) with the brightness of it : here 's the short and the long of the business of that verse , and those about it , from which i , who can see the sun , can see no such doctrine follow , as i.o. dreamingly draws from it , nor one dram of reason , nor the least grain of assent to his asas●inated assertion , that the scripture is of more certitude as to the churches use , then any true revelations . other arguments i.o. urges why the light and spirit cannot bee the rule , &c. therefore the scripture must be it . j.o. that to which we are never , no where sent of god that we might learn the knowledge of himself , and his will , and take direction in our duty , that cannot be the rule , canon , principle or directory of our faith , learning , knowledge and obedience . but we are never , no wheresent of god to any inward light , or internal private spirit , &c. therefore , &c. les the fanaticks produce but one place of scripture , wherein we , or any are sent to their rules or directions of faith and obedience , and we will not say but they have cause to triumph in earnest , but if they speak of their own , they are lyars , they bear witness to themselves , and their witness is not true . reply . as for thy word , private spirit , we deny all leading by any private light and spirit : it is the common light and publick spirit of god , which is one and the same in all , though not in the same measure , and not any thing of our own that we testifie to , and profess to follow , as our guide : it is the gift of gods grace in us , that appears to all , bringing salvation , which teaches all , that are led by it , and learn at it , to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts , and live godly , righteously , and soberly here , that we intend ; nor do we so much as pretend to any other inwardlight , but that of god in the conscience , which , though thou foolishly stile it natural , yet thy self be ●rest such an ample testimony to sometimes , that we need use no other then thy own words , to prove it to be infallibly of god , and from him an infallible guide : and that we are sent of god to this inward light , word , or spirit , in answer to thy challenge to produce one scripture , i say what need wee produce one ? thy own pen , if thou l't beleeve it , points out almost i●numerable places , yea all in which the word of god is said to be preacht , publisht , multiplied , received , where the word nigh in the heart is meant , and the outward scripture , that is the declaration of it , considered formaliter or ( as written ) not at all intended : yet for fear thou shouldest not beleeve thy own pen when such . truths drop from it as make against thee ( and indeed it hath let fall so many untruths , pro and cons , and fellaries from it , that it little deserves to be beleeved by thy self , but rather suspected when it writes the truth ) i am free here to produce some out of many more that might bee produced , wherein men are sent in the scripture , if that be of god , by whom thou s●yest they nunquam , nusquam , never , no where are so sent to the rules and directions we call to , which are not any mans own private spirit , or fained light , or enthusiasms or dreams , as thou dreamest , and to the abusing of us to the world out of thy own narrow private light-loathing spirit divinest they are , but the word , light , and spirit of god which is within , viz. jam. . . receive with meekness the ingrafted word able to save souls , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , insitum v●rbum . that the word is a light thou dost not deny , and that its within , sure thou wilt not , who sayest , ex. s. thus , that word within is the word of faith the apostles preached , and that we are here called to it thou canst not . so gal. . , . walk in the spirit , &c. of which spirit he saith it lusteth against the flesh , which lusting must be where the flesh that private , earthly , evil spirit , that man in the fall is possest with lusteth against it to envy and all evil ; but that is within , and the scripture saith so , not only in iam. . . but in some other place whence he a leadgeth it , whose words are , think yee that the scripture faith in vain the spirit that dwelleth ( in ) us lusteth to envy ▪ so joh. . , . let that abide in ) you , &c. if that ye have heard from the beginning remain ( in ) you , &c. and what 's that but the anointing the spirit of god within ? which though ● . o. may call a whimsy and delusion , a lye , and such like , yet is truth , and is n● lye , yea t is nothing but that which is in the lye , which calls it a lye , and that which is already deceived , and hath nought but deceit it self to bee deceived of , that cryes out deceit and delusion of the truth . to which i might adde all such places as call to the light and mention the light , as that which though evil ones hate , yet such as d● truth come to , and christ both warned men himself to walk by , and beleeve in , and sent paul and iohn , and therest of hi● ministers to turn men to * and iohn the baptist pointed at , and witness'd to , which light was not the letter , in which they wrote of this light ( as thou silli●est supposest ) for they were not a●inisters of that , cor. . but the light of christ , and christ the light of the world who enlightened every man before the letter was , and that is within , in the minde and conscience , where the darkness is , for the darkness is within , and not without , and therefore the light must bee much more within , which shines within the darkness , though not comprehended by it ; for that light which shines in the dark place till the day dawn , and the day-star arise there , which is the heart , must be also in the heart , and that light which shineth within the darkness , which is within men , must needs be much more within them ; as the candle that shines within a dark lanthern that is seated within a room , must need be within the room , as much , if not more inwardly then the lanth●rn is . another argument against the light and spirits being the rule , and so consequently that the scripture onely is it , is the uncertainty of all sorts of enthusiasms . j o. that which is every way uncertain , yea most uncertain , deceitful , whether , we consider th● principle of the revelation , or the things revealed , that we ought not to attend to , as a rule or guide in the way of life , and the worship of god , but that 's the nature of all enthusiasmes . * therefore , &c. reply . is thy text then such a certain rule with thee , which thy self confessest to bee so uncertain , that criticks may alter it as they please ; and about which thou confessest ye are in such a heap of uncertainties ? . wee talk not of enthusiasms as the rule , but of the light within , and spirit of god in the conscience and word in the heart , manifesting good and evill , lusting against the flesh , which the letter calls a light to the feet a lamp to the paths , and this as is above shewed from pet. . . is a sure word of prophes●● ; yea this is most certain , unchangeable , eternally the same , incorruptible living and abiding ever , what ever become of the dead letter , that is so liable to be altered , corrupted , nullified , that there need no other argument in the world be used to prove it not to be the word of god , ( unless god have an uncertain and corruptible word which i● blasphemous and contrary to the scripture to imagine ) then the utter uncertainty and corruptibility of it , insomuch that we may safely syllogize thy own argument against the inward lights being a rule from its uncertainty back again upon thee against the letters being a rule ab e●us omne genus incertitudine from its uncertainty and corruptibility thus , viz quod omni modo est incertum incertissimum corruptibile , &c. that which is every way uncertain , most uncertain liable to be altered , falsified corrupted to be mis-transcribed , mis-translated , mis-interpreted , wrested this way and that , to moulder away to perish , be torn to peeces burned , and many wayes brought to nothing , is not the word of god , nor the only rule , &c. but the letter or scripture is so as abovesaid , witness the written role of ieremiahs prophesie which zedekiah cut with a pen-knife , and consumed in the fire , and thy own confessed mouldring away of the very first manuscripts , therefore , &c. another argumen of i.o. against the light and spirits being the onely rule is this . j.o. it s of no small moment that leaning to these principles , following th●se guides , rejecting the rule of the word written , the fanaticks are daily driven to pernicious manners , abominable idolatries , murders , whoredomes , blasphemies , and in all nations to unhappy ends . rep. whether there be more abominable idolatries , murders , whoredoms , blasphemies and pernicious manners among qua. or other men called christians , and christian ministers , that suck at the breasts of the vniversities or nursing mothers is sufficiently shew'd above , as for unhappy ends , t is t●ue , by bloody persecution many fanaticks , as thou callest the qua. have come to untimely deaths , the more shame for new england , where two of them have been hanged for coming into their coasts , and old england also , where for all the pretences to reformation , many have perished in prisons , and by blows and bruises for their testimony to the truth ; the more shame for oxford it self too , where one of the first that came thither dyed of the bruises and abuses there received from the scholars ; but if by unhappy ends thou mean such as befall men , as his judgements , from the hand of god immediately in some eminent notable way seizing on them , and cutting them off ; these are untimely ends that many not for following , but forsaking and fighting against the light the qua. testifie to , have brought on themselves in these latter years in these nations , besides many sharp sufferings in their lives time , in which thy self i.o. hast had a just share for flinging at the qua. as fanaticks , who art now flouted at as a fanatick thy self ; beware therefore , and be warned in thy life-time , le●● thy latter end be as some of theirs : how scores ( at least ) of persons have been taken away for their hands being heavy on the qua. by the hand of god heavy on themselves , is to be seen in a book of e.b. stiled a word of reproof , where hee mentions about fifty sad examples of gods vengeance on the qua enemies , where dean owen is also marked out for no great good but his excessive pride , to which i refer thee : and to this very day the righteous god every morning brings his righteous iudgements to light , but the unjust knows no shame . another argument whereby i.o. would prove the scripture to be the word of god is on this wise . i. o. it will easily appear to any one that never so sleightly reads it that the holy scripture is by the holy spirit very often indigitated by that name . * so p. . in every place it avers it self to be the word of god. so p . if the scripture be what it reveals and declares it sef to be , it is then unquestionably the word of the living god , for that is prosesseth of it self from the beginning to the ending . reply . . in proof of thy minor thou producest mar. . . which is nothing at all to such a purpose , for its the commandements written , which were gods commands before they were written , and we confes● to be the word of god , whether they be written , or not , that are there spoken of under that term word of god , and not the writing or scripture of the commandements . . exer. . s. thou overturnest thy self clear as to thy minor saying thus , * where the word of god is said to be preached , published , multiplied , received in innumerable places almost ) the scripture formally considered is not meant nor intended : which is so ( though i know thou contradictest this again blaming the qua. because they allow not the scripture to bee meant in those innumerable places of scripture where the word of god is said to bee preached , published and received , ex. 〈…〉 then how canst thou say , the spirit in the scripture calls the scripture from one end of it to the other , calls the scripture the word of god , and that the scripture every where calls it self so ? another argument whereby thou wouldest evince the scripture to bee the word of life , and so the rule , is a certain absolute necessity , vel ad esse , to the spiritual being of the saints that thou fanciest to be in the scripture , saying , ex. . s. . non p●usopu●est vict●● & vesti●●u● vitam hae●●animatem traducamus , quam scrip●utis 〈◊〉 eju● cognitio●● ( dei s●ili●et ) atque side in dies ●●udiamur . we have not more need of food 〈◊〉 to the natural life , then of the scriptures to the knowledge of god and ●●●th , and that its evident that the qua. have with less danger and loss assayed to fast forty dayes , then they can lead a spiritual life free from deadly sins without the word of god. rep. without the word of god i grant it , but the word still is in the heart , and is not the scripture formally , or lie●●er without , which thou ( with shame enough due if thou takest it to thy self ) sayest men cannot live spiritually without , nor free from sin without : as if there were no holy spiritual men that did no iniquity as the world doth , or that were free from deadly sins before the letter was : what letter had abel , enoch , noah , righteous and upright men , that walked with god in crooked generations , to live by ? and if they lived without the letter to god , is it as impossible to do so now , as to live bodily without food ? that which is necessary ad esse , and not bene esse only , must be necessary for them as well as us , and so the word of god is , which was before the letter , and which they then had who had not the scripture , yea both outwardly & inwardly men live by the word that proceeds out of gods mouth , else outward bread doth not keep men alive bodily , matth. . yea every creature that man lives by must be sanctified by that , else it s a curse , tim. . and for the qua. fasting forty dayes without hazard : there 's a miracle told by i.o. himself concerning the qua. if that may convince such as look for miracles , yet will not men beleeve . . more texts there are used and quoted often over and over again in proof of many particulars respectively about the text or scripture , not one of which either of them truly serves one jot toward the proving of , as namely that it is the word of god , and that so assuredly that who receive 〈◊〉 not ( as so ) are inexcusable in damnable unbeleef , that that is asserted to bee the rule and standard , the touchstone of all speakings whatsoever , that which pleads its reception not onely in comparison with , but in opposition to all other wayes of coming to the knowledge of gods minds and will , the best and most effectual means of bringing men to repentance , that which all faith and repentance is immediately to be grounded upon , th●t by which god gives us greater security against all pre●ences and pleas of unbeleef to the excluding of them , and to the enforcing of beleef , as a sure foundation for faith to repose it self upon , and more moving then any evident miracle , that true voice of god which assertains the soul beyond all possibility of mistake , that which not only it self to be discerned from al delusions , but determines al doctrines also propos'd to be beleeved whether they be truths of god , or cunningly devised fables , more then the most signal miracles imaginable , more then that greatest of miracles , even christs resurrection , and othe● mans rising with him from the dead , more then any voice from heaven it self , not only then one counterfeited by men or satan in the air , but then any true voice of god himself speaking to us from heaven , as he spake to mose● , or as he spake to christ ; yea as safely to be rested in , as such , a● any voice coming from heaven with such divine power as to evidence it self 〈◊〉 be of god , and to be rested in , as such ; yea giving greater certainty and security then that voice which came to them in the holy mouns ; that moses and the prophets which who hears not wi● not be perswaded to repent though one arise to them from the dead ; that which as to its certitude is preferr'd before the certitude of even true and miraculous revelations : that beside whi●h ( after the compleating its canon ) no new revelations about the same faith and worship are to be expected or admitted , no more 〈◊〉 it ( as from the spirit ) to bee added , which is to stand alone as the only most perfe●● rule , inalterable standard , for the trial of all doctrines , visions , revelation , spirits , [ gods own not excepted ] to which we must stand , come , and are sent alone to stick stedfast , and earnestly attend to without hearing or heeding angel or spirit , without listning to any new blowings or inspirations of the spirit , which is now imited to the letter ( though it was once at liberty , and had the licence as well since the letter was written , as before , to blow where it listed , ioh. . ) without looking at any light within without walking in any way , or using any other means of knowing god , of having or holding fellowship or communion with him [ which was wont , to be only in the light , ioh. . ] but that of the scriptures , on pain of rejection and heavy damnation from god own spirit in the scripture : in a word , that law and testimony which alone is to be consulted with in all doubtful cases , to which god calls from our seeking and attending , pythonibus aut aryolis , qui pipiunt & qui mussitant , to wizards and familiar spirits that peep , and that mutter , yea that very word there spoken of isa. . which whoever speaks not according to these is no light to him . i say the two texts abovesaid are not only frequently cited and recited in evidence of these various and sundry particulars , but also judged by j.o. to be such sure grounds , hercules pillars , firm props and principles , as are not only satisfactory to mens consciences , but sufficient to stand that way he draws them against all mens objections , so that relying thereon men have a sure bottome and foundation for their receiving all the other scriptures , so assuredly as the word of god , and consequently all that that it abovesaid , that who , even from thence , even from these text own them not in that manner ( as such ) are left inexcusable in their damm●ble 〈◊〉 , p. . that therefore the utter in ●onsequence of j.os. deductions from them , which are meer non sequi●●●s may the more plainly appear , i shall ( letting fall j.os. other trifling arguments , and sidling replies to what the qua. urge on behalf of the light ) of inartificial arguments , as himself calls them , draw them into the form of artificial ones , and express the manner of his illegal inferences from them , which is in such wi●e as here under follows . we are by that text in isa. . , . sent to the law and to the testimony , to try what ev●y churches or persons speak about the things of god , his will , worship , or our obedience to him , who if they speak not according to that word , there is no light in them . therefore 't is evident that the scriptures are the word of god , and consequently all that , that is abovesaid . the second , viz. christ , luke . . bids men attend , not looking for miracles , to moses and the prophets , the written word , as the best and most effectual means to bring to repentance , and which all faith and repentance is immediately grounded upon . therefore the scriptures are evidently the word of god , &c. rep. in which two arguments thou reasonest in print well nigh as ridiculously , as he works in paint , who doth humano capiti cervicem jungere equinam . for the head of the corner is strait , sound and sure , the body of the building upon it corrupt and crooked , weak and rotten . that we are sent to the law and testimony , to that word there talkt of and intended , and to moses and the prophets , and that that law , testimony and word , that moses and the prophets spake of in those two texts is that word that is the true touchstone of all truth , a greater ground for faith and repentance to be founded on then that of miracles , and a more sure , stable , firm , fixt , stedfast , or standing word , then the voice which came from heaven , all this i do not in the least deny , but that the bare outward writing which thou falsely callest the written word , and the external 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as at first written , much more the present transcribed copies of that letter , much more yet every letter , tittle and iota of it , which thou keepest such a tatling for to be no less then the word of the living god is that law , testimony , moses and the prophets , or written word ( as thou callest it ) intended in those two texts or that by these termes in those two places is meant the said outward scriptures , and lastly , most of all that it follows by any good consequence from those two places by such sound deduction , as will stand against all objections , & gives such assurance thereof , that he is a damnable unbeleever that be●eeves not from thence , that the said letter and letters are infallibly known to bee the word of god and the rest above said , which are the things by thee inferred from them ; all this i both do and dare deny . for the law that in isaiah is spoken of , is not the literal copy , nor outward legible letter that thou pleadest for , and divinest it is , but another law , which i see by thee thou art not yet very much ver'st in , nor used to read , even that in the heart , not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or letter of a law of carnal commandements , not the formal letter , or literal form of a writing without , but an inwardly written spiritual law or light within , which is the power of the endless life , that law in mens mindes , which is warred against by that law of sin and death that dwells in their members ; the law in the spirit lusting against that , and lusted against by that flesh , or evil spirit that is also in men lusting unto envy , and all evill , the law of the spirit of life which is by christ iesus , that is powerful to that , which the letter , or copy thereof , which is ( figuratively ) called the law , is weak to , cannot do , viz. to deliver such as take heed thereunto from that law of sin aforesaid that leads men captive unto death : the commandement that is a lamp , and not a dark lanthorn , p. . . the law that is the light it self that leads to the life it self ( for so that of the spirit doth ) and not the dead letter , that is used instrumentally as a knife to kill , but in any wise cannot quicken . and that testimony or witness is that testimony of iesus , which they have & hear that keep the commandements of god , even the light in the conscience as aforesaid : this testimony of iesus , who is the true and faithful witness of god , of whom also god himself testifieth and beareth witness , is jesus his own witness or testimony for god , born by his own voice and writing , by his own spirit and light immediately in the heart , who there testifyeth what he hath seen and heard of the father , though few such a thou art receive not his testimony , whose light , voice , spirit , speakings , and counsel from heaven in their own hearts , who so turns away from , and hears not in all things is none of his sheep , but shall be condemned and cut off from among his people ; and not the testimony or witness of men in outward writings or letters testifying ( though as moved by him ) what they have seen and heard from him , not that scripture thou so w●itest for , and callest the witness of god , for that of god is far greater : the testimony of iesus is a letter indeed , a writing , and an epistle & prophesie , yet not the outward writings , letter , and copies of the epistles , and prophesies of peter , paul , and the holy men of old , wherein is written and transcribed their witness or testimony for iesus , which they were moved by his holy spirit to give out , and hold forth whether by word of mouth or writing ; but the epistle of christ , written not with inke , but with the spirit of the living god , not in tables of stone , but in fleshly tables of the heart : yea the testimony of jesus is no less than the spirit of prophesie it self , rev. . . and not the writing thou so writest for , in which men do but write it , and write of it , as is shewed above . this verbum & lumen internum , the word and light within , is that which those that reject it are , in that place of iob . . hinted at by thee , called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lights , rebels , men resisting the authority which they cannot but be convinced of , and not the present letter or letters of the scripture ( as thou dotest p. . before the writing of one letter or tittle of which outward letter this inward light was , though he that lives not by the light , lives not by the letter neither , which came from it and ( excepting where men have sould it with the dirt of their mis-transcriptions and mis-translations agrees with it : i wonder how much of that scripture thou so super-eminently adorest , and wouldest have the preheminence in prating for it , was written when that in iob was w●i●ing , against which men could be said to rebel ; tell me if thou canst , and in so doing thou perhaps m●yest tell thy self that that was a light within , and not a letter without , which they then were said to rebel against , which letter without [ as much as thou seemest to wonder at the qua. for holding the light within in authority equal to it ] they are not ashamed to set the light above , and to say that it is non ejusdem authoritatis cum scriptura , sea majoris authoritatis quam scriptura , * not in as much but in more authority then the scripture , neither will all thy scripture-admiring scrape adde so many cubits to the statute of it , as among any but such stocks as stick at nothing , but without streining swallow all down for truth that thou tellst them is so , to state it in any equality with the light it came from . and that the word we are sent to in isa. . is the living word , and not the dead letter , nor mens dead senses thereon , interpreting it according to their own private familiar spirits , muttering out their own meanings , and imposing on people their own cloudy cogitations thereon , as cogent canons , is evident , for he calls them off from the dead , to the living , when they say unto you seek to them that have familiar spirits and wizards that peep and mutter , should not a people seek to their god ? for the living to the dead ? to the law , to the testimony , if they speak not according to this word , it is because the morning light is not to him , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so it s more truly rendred then thus , there 's no lightin them , which mis-translation many [ not knowing the hebrew , and many knowing it not heeding ] make no little ado against the lights being in all men , and to as little purpose , for it s no light to him , and not no light in him , and we know a light may be in a room under a bushel , and so not shine out unto it . and that by moses and the prophets to which christ directs as the most effectual means of bringing men to repentance , and that all faith and repentance is immediately to be grounded on , is not meant their meer outward writing , it evident ; for all men that need repentance have not that , yea if the scripture it se●f , and that alone be that men are sent to , by which the doctrines to beleeved must be tried whether they be truths of god or fables , and upon which all faith and repentance must be grounded ; what must become of those twenties to one in the world , to whom god never vouchsafed so much as a sight of those their writings ? if thy divination from hence i.o. be as true as 't is sure enough to some its but a dream , one of these things must be true as concerning such , viz. either i. they need no faith nor repentance ( as they do ) or . they must be accepted with god , and saved without either faith or repentance ( as they cannot ) or . both beleeve and repent without any ground at all for the doing of either , and so build a castle in the aire without any foundation or bottome , which how impossible it is , or how well it would stand , if it were possible so to build it , an idiot may imagine ; or perish and be damned for ever by , and from the living god for not doing that which they had never any ground at all given them from god , whereupon to do it , and so ( absit blasphemia ) be cursed for ever for not acting what they were never put into any capacity to act and ( absit tibi domine , ne tale quippiam facias , exercendo pharonis tyrannidem , absit tibi , an non iudex totiusterrae exerceresjus ? ) be sorely beaten for not making as great a tale of brick without any straw at all , as would have been expected from them if they had had straw enough and be punisht for not effecting impossibilities . but thy faith about that scripture being but the festisious fruit of thy own fancy , and thy divination from it but the divinity of a divine that dreameth , we need not in the dark iun upon any of these ragged rocks having a more sure way , then any of these , in the light made so plain before us , that unless we chuse so to do ( as some do ) we cannot split our selves upon them ; for as all men ( having sinned ) need faith and repentance ; so they have a more effectual means of bringing them to repentance , and a more immediate ground to build their faith and repentance on then the naked outward writings of moses and the prophets , which thou here makest the ground of all faith and repentance ( not mentioning the apostles , as if thou hadst forgot them , whose writings thou makest a joynt peece of the foundation in other places , p. , . ) or then the meer outward writings of the apostles either together with them , and that ground is no other but the self-same , which the writings of all these bear one joint testimony unto , viz. the measure of gods grace in every ones heart that teacheth to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts , such as will learn of it , and io live soberly , justly , and godly in this present world , appearing to all men to that end , bringing salvation along with it to such as submit to be taught by it , tit. . . . called the riches of gods goodness , rom. . which such as thou art despise to their own ruine , not knowing it s given to lead to repentance ; the law , light , doctrine , truth , spirit , word , writing , and testimony of god himself in the heart and conscience , given out of his own mouth , written with his own finger therein , not consenting to any , but condemning all evil , and calling to repentance & all other good , reaching men even thi● good lesson , quod sibine vis fieri alteri ne feceris & è contra , whatsoever ye would that others should do unto you , the same do you unto them , and this is that law and the prophets , that moses and the prophets , which christ ever sends to , matth. . . and they that heed , beleeve in , and walk according to this , whereby they are a law to themselves ( though heathen ) shall come to the life of god it leads to sooner then the letterlanding jew or christian that boasts of the letter , yet through breaking it in the morals of it dishonours god. yea such are the true beleevers unto life as beleeve in that inward-light , and they unbeleevers , who beleeve the history of the letter & despise this ; and thus it oft falls out , that even ethnici non credendo credunt , when christiani credendo non credunt ; and he that will not hear this moses and the prophets that i so nigh him , that is within him , will never be profited or perswaded by any mans writings , nor any preachings that are further off him , and without him , though one do arise to him from the dead . and this , even this very thing , viz. your vilifying , undervaluing , hating , resisting , smoothering , turning from , not coming to that light of christ in your consciences , but closing your eies against it , stopping your ears at the voice of christ who from heaven speaks to you by it , hardening your hearts , striving ( like the old stiff-necked , and [ in heart and ears ] uncircumcised jew against the strivings of the spirit of god in you by it , which by it convinceth the whole world both of sin , and of righteousness , and of judgement ; your receiving the grace of god in vain , even the light that will not let you run to ruine , without check , reproof , and controle , which is that mercy that shews his long-suffering to men-ward , and that he is not willing any should perish , but that all should come to repentance , and be saved in the acknowledgement of the truth , and your turning it into wantonness ; also your despising the riches of this grace of god ( the light ) in your taunting terms of ( i know not what imagined christ or figment of the qua. i know not what word or light within , an infallible doctor , i know not what god , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cornu-copia , horn of plentiful salvation better then any god , every thing , nothing ) and the riches also of his long suffering and forbearnce towards you in your deep defiance and derisory deifiance of his light and grace , not knowing that this goodness of god , who gives you and others this , is that grand ground that true moses and the prophets , and not thy differently transcribed copies of their outward writings , which are long since worn out , and worm eaten , and could not by thy own confession continue to this day uncorrupted , and from mouldring without a miracle , that should least you to repentance , and is the most effectual means of bringing men thereunto , and the firmest foundation and practice for all faith [ but such as yours which is false and fallible ] to fasten it self upon : i say this very thing , and sin of yours in setting so light by the light of god , is the great , if not the sole reason why faith and repentance , that are so much preached , are so little practised , so abundantly called for in a form and found of words , yet little or nothing but infidelity , impenitency , and iniquity , diminished into the name of infirmity to be found abounding as well among the most professing , as among the most prophane preachers and their respective peoples , who all continue in the same sins that both the scriptures , and themselves too , cry out against ad ravim usque & sudorem , to very heat and hoarsness ; sacerdotibus pluteum caedentibus , sedentibus in plureis fudantibus , laboring , and laying on till ye preachers sweat in your pulpits , and people in their pews against pride , and fantasticalness in apparel , against foolish talking and jesting , and idle words in your speeches , against unsavoury laughter and merry tales , and such like frothiness in your communications , against vain thoughts , lust , luxury , rioting , drunkenness , chambering , wantonness , voluptuosness , covetousness , greediness of gain , couzening , chearing , defrauding , overreaething in bargaining , buying and selling , against all unrighteous dealing , headiness , high-mindedness , fierceness , frowa●dness , anger , passion , impatience , discontent , backbiting , whispering , slandering , hatred , malice , contention , suing at law , strife , envying quarrelling , rayling , reviling , self-avenging , against preaching for hire , divining for money , against biting and crying peace , and preparing war against such as put not into your mouths , against spoiling of mens goods , persecuting and imprisoning their persons for their conscience sakes , cum multis aliis , quae nunc , &c. and yet more or less from the least to the greatest prophets , priests , princes , preachers , prayers , professors , people of all forms living stil for all this ( because unturn'd to that light which would shew every one of you his shameful , sinful self ) without much condemnation for , or repentance from these evills some in one of them , some in another ; all in some one or other , and every one in his own that likes him best , and beleeving it will be spared , and be excused th●ugh it live in him , or he in it , even till hee dyes , so that the best of the parish are yet but as the beasts that perish , being all lovers of pleasures more then lovers of god , having all this while a form of godliness , but denying the power thereof , for which therefore having [ as eye witnesses ] born , and in this nation , well nigh finisht their testimony against you that ye may remember ye were warned in time , and be excuseless and speechless when god himself comes as a swise witness against you for your adulteries against him , and comes nigh unto you , even in your own consciences unto judgement ) christ own disciples , gods own hidden ones , who suffer from you for it , are now utter'y and eternally turning from you . and as there is no thriving in any thing but an empty outside profession of truth without the possession of it , and no profiting appears in ought , but the prophanenes , aforesaid among the vain truth-hating teachers , and vain talkers of these times , i.e. the doctors , and their disciples , whose religion runs all up into straw , and brings forth no fruit to perfection , because they are all out of that light , which is in them , preaching and hearing one another preach the good words they have stollen out of moses , the prophets , and apostles writings , but not heeding the law , and the prophets , and the light of the gospel within them , god himself also according to what hee said of old , blasting their ministry , so that they cannot profit people at all , and cursing all their blessings , though they seldome send their hearers away without their blessed are all they that hear the word of god and keep it . so also there is nothing but what is worth nothing comes forth ( as most effectual a means as i.o. faith the scriptures of moses and the prophets are to bring men to repentance ) by the hearing of moses , and the prophets writings read ( one chapter yet of which dead letter of those living men , i grant is worth two of our dead divines dead divinings ) for-as of old , act. . . act. . . so now among iews and christians , there are those that read these every first day ; but what 's the issue of all the reading of their outward writings ? as all that comes up on the plowings and fowings of these seeds-men , when they preach , is like that corn on the house top , whereof the mower filleth not his arms , nor he that bindeth sheaves his bosome ; so all that comes out upon the threshings and treadings of these oxen , whose mouthes must not be muzled from feeding where they please , if they do but read , much more if they be at so much pains as to expound the scriptures , is but an itching ear to know , more then do ; yea a bare husk , an empty hull , an ear without grain , a whole church full of chaff , which every wind of doctrine drives up & down and whisles to and fro , which when winnowed , and fified in time of temptation falls all back to the ground , to the earth from whence it came , which he whose fan is in his hand , when he hath gathered his wheat into his garner , will throughly p●rge his floor of , blow upon by his spirit , and burn up with unquenchable fire thus moses is read , and the prophets read , and their writings heard , which [ if i.o. doth not divine a lye ] are the best and most effectual means of bringing men to repentance ; but where is the repentance hoped for ? are not the people ever in their sins ? is not that a vain power , and meer fained efficacy , quae nunquam reduditur in actum ? is not that a most ineffectual most effectual means of repentance which never effects the end , i.e. the repentance it is the means of ? yet where is there one among all these painted penitents that so truly and fully repents from his sins , as not to ive in , and beleeve he must live in some dead works to his dying day ? or repents so far as to reach so much as hope that he shall live without sin till he dyes ? in which yet [ to go round again ] t is beleeved by the hearer , because taught by his teacher , that if he dye without repentance , he shall finde no place after death for repentance , though he seek it carefully with tears , and that there is no purgatory in the world to come : so here is plowing in hope , and threshing in hope , performing in hope , and praying in hope , preaching in hope and hearing in hope , treading in hope , and reading in hope ( not so much of godlines somtimes too as of earthly gain ) but what is the hope of the hypocrite , though he hath gained ? it is no better then the giving up of the ghost when god taketh away his soul job . . and what is the reason of all this vain hope , and ●on-proficiency , and impenitency under this best means [ as i.o. calls it i.e. moses and the prophets writings ? is it for want of having the copies of their writings among them ? no , ●here's transcriptions of the original of the hebrew and greek texts of sorts enough , so many that they vary very much from each other , and cannot stand together in some greater matters , much less [ as i o. talks ] in every tittle and iota in unity among themselves : is it for want of rendring of these writings of moses and the prophets out of the hebrew copies into their own mother-tongue ? no , the transcripions are not so many and various , but the translations are as many more , and more various , not only in respect of that variety of the languages , into which , but also that more vast variety that is found in the translations of them into but one , even our own english-tongue , whereinto they stand translated , so that he that is not in ' ove with such translations as cross his carnal interest , and serve not his will and earthly turn , may have his choice of any or many others that like him better : is it for want of a competent number or quantity of bibles printed to serve the numberless number of people named christians in this nation ? no , not so neither , almost every one that can read , and hath mony enough to buy one ( without which the word of god , nor any other of his gifts are to be purchased , if the simon magusses may have their wills , who buy the patent for the selling thereof , and yet sell but their own thoughts and words instead and under the name thereof ) will buy a bible , what ever it cost , to carry with him to his church ; and some will have two or three , and most houses some , and against the old word is worn out , at the sellers shops there 's enough of the word of god to be bought for money if the meer letter were it and a number of new bibles for all comers : is it for want of hearing them read ? no! they are read too much , and heard read too often , unless they were more spiritually understood , and more carefully and practically observed : is it for want of interpreters , and interpretations , expositors and expositions , divines , and their divinations what may be the minde of god in this , and that place of it , and what the drift and scope of the penmen in such and such sayings , and their sense in such and such a sentence , and the meaning of such a parable or proverbial speech and the like ? is it for want of men to give out their own judgements , opinions , and thoughts of things , and manifest their meer mindes about the matters therein contained ? no , there 's no need of this , it can do no good , for if it could , o the ocean of opinionists , thinkers , and thrusters out of their own thoughts of things , doctors , divines , criticks , scepticks , schoolmen , casuists , commentators , and such like diviners , dreamers , and deep divers after the marrow of that divinity in the scriptures , that lyes deeper yet then their shallow head-pieces can ever reach too , who never yet got within the bones , nor entred farther then into the outside of the sealed book , and the letter , or meer literal sense of the law and testimony that is bound up from all , but christs disciples , yet they whiffle it to and fro , and weary the world out with the winds of their opinions , which , as they are as many more as the different translations are , and more then the winds or points upon the compass by times twice told , so they blow and strive against each other upon the face of the earth to the disquieting thereof , as the sea is disquieted , with their boysterous buslings , filling it with the froth of their own wisdome which is foolishness with god , foaming out their own folltes and fained senses upon the scriptures , so fast and so flatly contrary one to another , that as the most must needs be false so 't is enough to confound and amaze mens minds [ they are so many ] to meddle to finde which is true among their meanings , and to set a man out of his own senses to set himself [ so several are they ] to seek out their several senses on the scriptures , many bumbling volumes , larger then the bible it self being written , or some one text of sripture . is it for want of power or efficacy in the letter ? yea that is one reason , for howbeit i.o. sayes , it is absolutely called the power of god , and effectual to salvation ; yet to his own confutation , i. o sayes ; the letter is dead and ( without the spirit ) of no efficacy for the good of souls : but another , and that not the least is because they live in rebellion against the light , which while they turn not to , though moses is read and the prophets also , and all the letter or old testament , yet the vail remaineth over moses and the prophets faces , and ( as over the iewes ) over the heart of these christians also , which vail is done away only in christ , and in turning to his light , and the spirit within ; their minds are blinded being off from the light , so that they know neither christ , nor moses , nor the voyces of the prophets that are so often read , which through ignorance they fulfill [ as the iews did ] in condemning christ , and putting him to open shame in his light , doctrine , and disciples . nevertheless if their heart shall yet turn to the lord , that spirit , and to his light , which is within , that vail shall be taken away , and they shall see with open face , & behold the glory of god , and be changed into his image , & be led indeed to that true repentance , that is never to be repented of ; but if they continue in their unbeleef in the light , and their hearturn not to the lord , in and by the light , in the time and space that is given them for that repentance , yet at least the face of the covering , that is now cast over all people , and the vail that is yet spread over all nations , shall be so far removed and destroyed at last , that there shall be repentance enough to no purpose , when it is too late , when the gulph is once fixed and abraham is seen by these rich worldlings , and belly-gods afar or , and lazarus in his bosome , when every eye that look's for him shall see him , who now cometh in the clouds , and they also that have pierced him , and all kindreds of the earth , that are no kin to him , shall wail because of him . even so amen the fourth apologeticall , and expostulatory exercitation . chap. i. now to proceed in way of answer to i. o's . arguments for the scriptures , and letter , and book , and bible , and texts , and outward writings of moses and the prophets , as the onely rule , in alterable standard , now compleated canon , touchstone of all truth , to which , since its close , and consignation after iohn had written , no new revelations writings , or scriptures of the old truth , as from the old spirit of it , are to be added , no immediate manifestations , inspirations , motions , missions from god , as of old , to be expected , or , if pretended , to be admitted or owned , but to be damned down , as delusion , fanaticism , enthusiasm , quakerism , diabolism , vain , uncertain , unprofitable , fancy , figment , detestable , meraae tenebrae & caecitas , fines salutares quod attinet , as to salvation meere darknesse , and blindnesse it self and what not that 's naught ? seeing it is so , as abovesaid , that all these false prophets and divines can prevail no further then to tangle , and hamper , and hinder men , and to hide the truth , by that hideous heap of unharmoneous heterogeneous , heterodox , more then orthodox volumes of divinity , and to smoother , darken , confound and drive men away from the naked truth , and draw them off from the scriptures themselves , that are plain and cleare to honest and plain-hearted men , by their smoak , and clouds , and circumferences , and by that boundlesse , bottomlesse , incomprehensible , chafly chaos of their contradictory and confused commentaryes with which the world is now burdened , even beyond what it can well bear and contain ; sith i say there 's none to guide these poor erring , lost , perishing , and as yet more deformed , then reformed nations , into the life of god , and power of godlinesse , from which they are alienated , because of the blindnesse of their hearts among all the sons , whom they have brought forth , isa. . . neither any that can take them by the hand and lead them in the true way of eternall life , of all the sons , whom they have brought up at their vniversities , who sit together with them under the shaddow of death , notwithstanding all their tumbling ore of so many tames about the scripture , is it then for want of true prophets , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 men divinely inspired , and sent of god to call people to repentance , and to turn them to that light of god within , that leads to repentance , by voice and writing to them , as them elves have had the true way thereof manifested in them by the light , as themselves , being taught of god , have learned and practiced it , and are moved of the holy spirit to preach and presse the practice of it upon others , according to the scope of the scriptures ? no! for there are many in england at this very day , speaking , reproving , writing , and prophecy●ng from the same light , and by the same spirit , that the scriptures came forth from , and as themselves have received and heard from the voice and mouth of god , and seen , felt , and handled of the word of life , as the prophets , amos . and the messengers , and ministers , of god and christ of old act. . , , . ioh. . , , , , &c. the spirit of the lord , is not more straitned in these days from blowing where it lists , then it was in the dayes of old ; howbeit , because it lists not much ( as it never did ) to blow upon or inspire the learned scribes , hypocritical pharisees , chief priests , aspiring rabbies , divinity doctors , proud diotrepheses , preheminence loving praters , hireling preachers . fawning prudentiall parasites , politicall polliticians and such like , but mostly upon a meaner sort of men as to outward account , these wise men are most hardly brought to beleive it to be so ; and so as said the priests , scribes , pharisees , rabbies , and doctors of old of moses and the prophets , we own them , know them and their scriptures ( which yet they knew not , nor the power of god ) we are their disciples , wee 'l stick to their writings , that 's our compleat canon , our stable standard , our immutable measure , to which nothing must be added , and of christ , and his in the dayes of his flesh , we know god spake to moses , as for this fellow and his fellows , we know not whence he is , and whence they are , they are of the devill , have a devill and are mad , why hear ye them ? they speak blasphemous words against moses , and the law , and this place , the holy temple , and turn away much people saying god is not worshipped in temples made with hands , but within onely in spirit and truth , talking as if they would teach us , as if they heard gods voice , and not we , who search the scriptures , and expound the law , and have the key of knowledge , have been train'd up in the scriptures , in reading the holy letters , but these we take notice of them that they are ignorant unlearned men , yet they say we are unstable and unlearned and wrest scriptures to own destruction , but whence hath this man letters having never learnt at universities as we have done ? away with them and their scripture , no more holy scripture now , the canon is compleated , the standard sealed , no immediate motion now , no such mission as the prophets had now , no speaking by divine inspiration now , no divine authority in any mans writings now , though they write not others but the same divine truths as of old , no extraordinary infallible ●uidance of men by the infallible spirit of god now , and suchlike : thus they said then , and thus our wise ignorants at athens say now of the same spirit that then spake in paul pressing others now to write , or speak to them of their wo●sh●pping an unknown god , seeing their universities given wholly to idolatry , and thus i.o. one of the sore men against the truth , what will these bablets say , and in a manner so they say all : but slay friend gods arm is not shortned ; neither is the mouth of god more made up now then formerly from making out and manifesting his own mind immediately from himselfe in the minds and consciences of men and women , so as that men may without manifest imprudence ( not to say impudence ) imagine so ignorantly as in effect i.o. doth that god spake his last to the sons of men , and all that ever he meant from his own mouth to make known of his will to any man , when iohn had , at the command of christ , written that pretious revelatio , ●which god , gave unto christ , to shew to his servants , who was pleased to signifie it unto them by the hand of his servant iohn , and when once in after ages a syned of some honest men ( who we know not ) upon some some mistakes and sailings ( which we● i.o. confesses tr. . c , . s. . . they were lyable to ) establish so much as they could get together ( which was but little , 't is like of that much that was written ) of the transcribed copies of the holy mens histories and apostles epistles , and letters to particular churches and private persons , and canoniz'd , it together with the writings of moses , and the prophets , into such a standing rule of faith and manners for all ages to come , that whatever should from thenceforth be found ( as not a little was , even of the apostles own , and some of christs own writings ) and whatever should be written after that with pretence ( as much hath been since then , not in pretence onely , but in truth ) of motion from the same holy spirit , should be shut out for ever from standing in their canon , sith it came not in at that time to their hands , and be ever of so low esteem as not to be own'd among the rest , under so much as the name of holy scriptures with them , but as to all ends , uses , and purposes , for which all holy scripture is written , be utterly raced out of the record , cancel'd , made void , and of none effect , while those few they authoriz'd , because of their stamp of the onely standard upon them , must be had in as high , if not an higher esteem , honour , and authority then the light it selfe , from which directing holy men in the writing thereof , they had all the being they have at all , as holy scriptures . let not i.o. in any wise say so , for there are yet ( though himselfe is none of them ) of the people of christ in england that bow not the knee to baal , many of whom , as they are under the new testament i.e. the spirit , and not under the old i.e. the letter , where thou yet art , have ( even both men and women ) the promises * thereof made good unto them concerning the gift of the holy spirit of the lord , and power to prophecy , which of old also , the true had mic. . and of judgment , and of might to declare unto the rebellious house of iacob and israel ( even the heads and princes thereof , if they abhor judgement and pervert all equity , and the priests and prophets thereof that preach for hire and divine for money and build sion with blood and ierusalem with iniquity , and yet leane on the lord , and say is not the lord among us ? none evill shall come upon us ) their sins and their transgression : and ( to use thy own words i.o. p. . . to thy self , who are much in the dark , as thou utterest them to such as are further in the dark behind thy self ) much more to the same purpose will same of them be found to say when men of ( outward ) wisdome and learning who are ( as they think ) able to instruct them , shall condescend personally so to do . yea , of myself i will not speak , who by the grace of god am what i am , and if the least measure of that grace be imparted to me among other of his servants , that i should preach among the gentiles the unsearchable riches of christ , it is to one , that , for ought i know , is of all the rest least worthy , or rather most unworthy of it : but i am bold to say so much , and no more then what will stand as truth against thine or any others gain sayings , that there are some , who do not more professe themselves to be , then they are indeed inspired by the holy spirit , whose messages and ministrations , whether by voice or writing , are so immediate from the mouth of the lord , that your not receiving , nor submitting to them on that account , but rejecting and denyall thereof with such rigour as ye do , doth justify your predecessors in all ages , who rejected and slew those that spake to them in the name of the lord , and speakes out in plain terms , your imagination to be this , that you may with safety to your selves reject them whom god sends ; yea ( to go on yet for a while much what in thy own words , tr. . c. . s. , . . ) there are some ( whether they work miracles yea or nay , as thou confessest most of the prophets did not , that 's nothing to thee ) who pretend not to this inspiration falsely , but both can and do to youward insist upon this , that being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , divinely inspired , their doctrine is to be recieved by you as from god , and in their so doing it will be found in due time to be your sin , even unbeliefe and rebellion against god not to submit to what they speake in his name , as that of his word they receive from his mouth : and this is not onely pleaded and insisted on by some , but also ( whether their testimony be received or not received by you preachers and the people whom you deceive ) it declares the foundation of its acceptance to be this ( viz ) its divine inspiration by the spirit of god from whom it is , whence also it is ( though not so thought by you ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a message or word well worthy of all acceptance much more of much better entertainment then you afford it , who mock , scoff at , whip , scourg , imprison , revile , and evill intreat the messengers thereof , and the earthen vessels , in which god sends it as a treasure to you , cor. . . that the excellency of the power may be of god , and not of man. so that it being rejected by you , and this untoward generation , which by their blind leaders are guided in such crooked wayes , and caused to erre to their own destruction , isa. . . . . . you shall know it s not only with a refusal of its witnesse , and a high detestation of its pretence to be of god , but also with a high detestation of god himself , from whom it s not so much pretended to come , as t will once be found by you to come in truth ; and what excuse , ground or plea , for such your refusal and detestation , you have against the time of gods pleading with you for his people , ioel . . &c. in the valley of iehoshapat , or of the lords judgment , whether he is now bringing you down , the hour for which decision is neerer upon you , then you professing persecutors , who yet awake not , are aware of , t is good for you now you have time , and not afterwards to consider , least to you cost you find the truth of qui non ante cover post delebit . the burden of dumab , draws on and begins to lye hard upon his back , yet i know the seed of esau , the fightlesse seers , who see with their eyes shut , supposing themselves secure , being at repose yet on their high mount seir , and so looke askew upon the light and its children , and scornfully call to them out of seir , watchman what of the night , &c. but for all this , that morning hasteth , which is their night , therefore , if ye will now enquire , enquire ye , return and come to the light , else wo and alas for ever , the bare book will not boot you , the letter without the light , ye look awry at , will little help you , the scripture without the spirit ye despise so cannot save you : but si non ante diem libruin cum lumine poseas , vigil tor quebere . there be some them , and those not a few in those dayes , declining the word of god , while you , who have your dreams tell your dreams , faithfully as they have it , who , as they have received that mercy of the ministry , saint not , but having renounced the hidden things of dishonesty , not handling the word of god deceitfully , by manifestation of the truth commend themselves to every mans conscience in the sight of god. cor. . . who are not , as the many false prophets are , hucksterizing , selling their own imitations of the true prophets words , counterfeit wares for mony , and the back and bellies * sake , the master of their art of preaching , instead of that which is currant , nor shuffling off in the dark their words , for gods word , their own thoughts , conceits , and conjectures for god councel , nor , as i.o. doth , calling light darknesse , and good evil , nor putting darknesse for light , and evil for good , as the light , and treacherous prophets and hirelings do , who will once have their hire , spoyle and pay from god , such as they look not for , as well as that they look for , at the law , from men , when they have made an end of spoyling , nor as our carnal spiritualty do , holding forth their hollow , husky , holy collations , and light chaff for weighty wheat , but as in sincerity , as sent of god to turn men to it , holding forth the light of god , and , as in the sight of god , speaking the true word , and gospel of god in christ iesus , which gospel , if it be hid , is bid but to them that are lost , whose eyes the god of this world blinds , least the light of the gospel of christ , should shine out in them , whose sin it is to refuse it , and duty it is to receive it , as that word and gospel of god , which is sufficiently manifested so to be , and easy enought by any but blinded blind ones to be discerned from that of yours , who defy the true light , and deify the naked letter , which is pretended so to be , yea as easy by such as are indeed desirous to see , as true ones are ( but not by such as fleeing the light , close their eyes , and seeing will not see least they see themselves to dwell in deceit , and by the light within , which manifests what 's within be reproved for it , iohn . . ) as the wheat is to be discerned from the chaff , which may infallibly by being what it is be discerned from it : for the word hath such proper ties of weight , light , heat , power , profit , as whereby infallibly to discover , and distinguish it self from the letter it self , much more from your light , dark , frozen , frail , and fruitles , fabrick of theology , who ( as calidi , not to say callidi , as you are in your re frigida ) by all your great pains , and great pains , and your great pay have hitherto sown little but the wind of your own words among the people , that love to have it so , for which and from which both you and they shall find neither corn nor meal , but at last reap the whirlwind , even the grievous whirlwind of the lord that is gone forth in fury , and is to fall ere long with pain upon the head of the wicked . when it is come to pass ye shall consider it perfectly , hos. . . ierem. . , , , , &c. ier. . . therefore it would be your wisdome to consider it now , whether the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or inspired ones of this age ( which are not yourselves , as your selves confesse , who nor do , nor dare , nor can , as the case is with you , pretend to such intimate or immediate acquaintance with the father , son , and spirit ( which trinity , notwithstanding , ye cannot but be tatling of , till you bewray your ignorance ) as to say that ye either feed or receive , or feed your flocks ( of goats ) with what word ye receive by inspiratiration from gods own mouth ) are not , yea rather to know assuredly that they are those called quakers , whose persons , together with their prophesyings , and preachings , ye reject and deride with detestation and envy , by the names of euthusiasts and enthusiasines . it is true ( as thou sayest ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there were false prophets , that spake in the name of the lord when he sent them not ; and may be now , and have been , and are , witness not onely the many millions of those locusts , that stand now separated into three swarms , as was foreseen and foretold in the vision of the three unclean spirits , like frogs , that have gone out to the deluding of princes and people , even the great city , woman or whore , that hath reigned over the earth , and sate on the many waters , peoples , multitudes , nations and tongues , with whom both kings and inhabiters of the earth ( being drunk & intoxicated with the wines of her wisdom ) have committed fornication , & run a whoring from the wisdom of god , divided and dividing the people that profess the name of christ ( without his nature ) respectively into three ppparts , rev. . . . rev. . , , , . rev. . . . . . ( viz. ) . pope and his carnall crue of cardinals , mount seniors , priests , iesuits , monks , friars of all sorts , and all the other sorts of his spirituall men and women , which are enough to weary one to read , much more to reckon them all up in writing . . arch-prelates , prelates , deanes , under which name i.o. was lately the onely man in england , till removed , that stood denominated , whose popish traditionall title was dean of christ-church in oxford , an officer that christ never instituted in any church that he constituted ; deans and chapters , and all that hang on that hirarchy , in the fall of whose spirituall courts tithes went down too , as to the way of recovery of them by any law , from any that are not free to pay them , if our wise statesmen , who sate at the stern , once had been made willing in their time , to see what they saw , before their fun was setting . . presbyters , parsons , vicars , curats , and all manner of spirituall persons , and their officials , clerks , sextons , &c. depending still , together with some that were once independents , as none of christs , but nationall messengers for nationall stipends : which said three swarms of locusts , who love the dark smoak , they came out of more than the light , which dispels it , have covered over the whole european ●●●th ( and more too ) in all corners of it , and have what they could , withheld the wind of gods spirit from blowing upon the earth , that themselves might eat up the good things thereof , and none of christs spiritual ones appear to hinder them , rev. . . . but also , even among those that truly pretend to it , such as pretend falsely to the foresaid inspiration ; yet do not thou dream , that because among these , by gods permission , as a snare rained down on , ps. . . and a stumbling-block laid in the way of the wicked , that are disobedient , ier. . . pet. . . there arise some false prophets , therefore god himself hath no time ones ; for if he hath , as so sure as thou hast clothes on thy back , he hath many more than thou art yet aware of , thou wilt get little by that fond conceit , fith ( as thy self truly sayest ) those whom god 〈◊〉 send are to be received on the same 〈◊〉 , on which the other are to be refuse i.e. n paine of damnation . neither deceive thy selfe so far i.o. any more as to make and imagine it such an unwonted , wonderfull , impossible matter ( as in a manner thou dost ) that even in these dayes men and women too , should , as of old they were , be moved , and inspired , both to speake and write by the holy spirit ; howbeit 't is true there are times of gods going away and returning to his place withdrawing & hiding himself , & his face in a little wrath , for their forsakings of him , from his own seed , as it hath fell out for ages , and generations together , even . years at least , wherein all the inward temple , worship and worshippers therein , lay wast and trodden down by the gentiles , or nations , that have had it given them so to do , & to glory in that name of christians without any true christianity , and in literall formes and observations of externall ordinances , according to the letter , which they have not kept to neither , but abominably corrupted themselves in the use thereof , and made void by their own tradition , without either of those two witnesses the word and spirit , which have been much more then the letter , abused and depressed into so low a condition , as to speak low out of the ground , and whisper out of the dust , and bear their testimony fiting in sackcloth , regarded and attended to but by a few , to which yet god is now giving power again to open their mouths , and to devour their enemies , and to burn up all that hurt them , and to smite the earth , and the dwellers in it , that rejoyce and make merry over them , with all plagues , as often as they will , * yet thereis a time of his returning to his own again , and of being found of them that seek him , and of his appearing to all those that love , and wait for his appearing to their joy though the shame of their adversaries , and of bringing forth the blind that have eyes , and the deaf that have eares , and of opening the eye of the blind , and unstopping the eare of the deaf , and causing the waters to break out in the wildernesse and streams in the desert , of pouring of floods upon the dry ground and making the thirsty land springs of water : and of speaking himselfe not so sparingly as before , and of pouring out his spirit on his sons nad daughters , servants and handmaids , that they shall prophesie , and of revealing himself in visions , and of the heavens dropping down their dew , and of preparing himself as the morning to meet such as follow on to know him , that they may live in his sight . though therefore i.o. as little believes this as one of the lords of king ioram did elishas prophesie of so great plenty in samaria , after the wofull famine that came by the syrians siege , when an asses head was sold for . and the fourth part of a kab of doves dung for . and may come to see it with his eyes , but not eat thereof , because he saith , as that lord , if the lord make windowes in heaven can this be , kings . , , , , , . yet such plenty of the spirit of god shall be given out to them that believe in the light , that out of their bellies shall flow rivers of living water , and the spirit shall be a well of water springing up into eternall life , and there shall be a measure of fine flower for a shekell , and two measures of barly for a shekell , and preaching and prophesying by the spirits motions , and writing by his inspirations , shall be as good cheap , as a measure of wheat for a penny , and three measures of barly for a penny , rev. . , and abundance of oyle and wine , yea new wine , that is now in the cluster , which must no more be spoyled , nor hurt , nor destroyed by neither the great , nor : the little foxes , but we will be to them that hurt , or hinder the tender grapes thereof , for a blessing assuredly is in it , cant. . . isa. . . rev. . . then shall the asses heads be priz'd no more so high , nor the doves dung be sold so deare , nor the chaff that hath been sold for wheat be so costly as it hath been , nor any outward excellencies , which are but excrement with the spirit and the spouse , who prize the doves innocency above all that , nor fleshly wisdome , which is foolishnesse with god , be any more accounted on . and though this seem such a mervailous matter i.o. in thy eyes , and utterly beyond that diminitive belief , and that little faith thou hast , which if we may believe thy self , is for ought thou knowest , just none at * and what testimony soever the spirit of god beaves of the scripture , or of the word of god , or of the gospel , or of any anything else to us , so as on pain of gods d spleasure to bind us to the belief thereof , it beares it in the hearts of men also , as well as in the scripture ( though thou say falsly , that all it now testifies it testifies in the scripture , and by that onely to the heart , and not in the heart immediately by it self ) or else it requires not the belief of it ) thou concludest thus ( viz. ) and if this be not a ●●●teme and foundation of faith ( and sure enough it is not so , if the spirit speak not the same within , that it doth without in the letter ) then i publickly professe , that , for ought i know , i have no faith at all : he , that doth not know that he hath any faith , may thereby know assuredly that he hath not any . all , yet must it therefore be such a mervailous thing in the eyes of god , and of his people , who are not so incredulous of the scripture as thou art , that god should speak with his own mouth to his own people , and vouchsase them so much mercy as to heare the joyfull sound of his his own voice , and reveale his mind and will to them by his own spirit ? indeed sometimes he is pleased to speak in one to another , as he did much in the prophets to the fathers , in paul to the churches , corin. . . in one prophet in his church , or two or three to all the rest , as he was pleased to move and inspire them by his spirit , cor. . , , , , . and reveale any thing to them , and by his spirit press them in their spirits , and give them utterance to utter it to others ; yet , if any spake as they ought , they were to speake as the oracles of god , and to minister , not onely as of the ability that god gave , and not man bought at university , but also as of that , which came to them as the word of god , uttered by his own voice in their hearts from his mouth out of the holy oracle of god , pet. . . & when he so speaks his voice is known and owned by his own , who own not the voice of strangers , when their tongues run before their wits , & out of their time , to tell & talk in words of the self-fame truth , which , but by bare hearesay they know not , and at this day he speaks out in his servants to people , and to you scribes that search the scriptures , who call on you to heare what hee saith in you , though as your forefathers , john the fifth , you have not at any time in your selves heard his voice ( which if it were the letter , you have often heard that read ) nor yet heeded such as spake to you from him , in whom he speaks : but doth all this exclude god from speaking , when and what he pleases , to any or every man immediately within his heart ? was there ever any age wherein he debarred himself from this , unlesse in the case of aforesaid , wherein he was pleased to hold his peace , because men would not hear him , but stopt the eare like the deaf adder to what he said , because , being evil doers , they did not like it ? in which case , terras astraea reliquit , is there not a time , wherein his very adversaries , that will not hear his voice in order to their own peace , shall heare it whether they will or no to their own terrour ? will not he that fits in heaven ( as far off as you think that is ) utter his own voice as the roaring of a lion , so loud within their consciences , that they shall hear him speake to them in his wrath , vex them in his sore displeasure , who have vexed his spirit ? and do not the people of god ( though you do not ) hear what god the lord himself will speak ? and will he not psal. . , speak peace to his people , and to his saints ? and are not such as have ears to hear bid to hear what the spirit saith , not in the scripture onely ( for that properly is not a voice , though figuratively it may be called so , no more than my letter to a friend , in which he may read my minde , is truly and properly my voice , and our controversie with i. o. is much about proper names ) but in the heart , where to them that hear , he speaks the same that by his motion is written in the scripture ? and do not christs people hear his voice ? who , though they may read the letter too , yet in that act can no more properly be said to heare his voice , than he properly to hear his masters voice , that is an hundred mile off , while he is but reading something or other that was written , not by his master neither , but by some other by his approbation , or appointment ? and are we not commanded to hear the welbeloved son of god ? and is it not dangerous to turn away the eare from him that speaks still from heaven , more then to turn away from moses or the prophets in whom he spake , and who spake , but from or by him here on earth ? and is not christ ( the● light of the world ) that great prophet , who preacheth himself the gospel in every creature , whose voice whoever heareth not in all things whatever he saith must be cut off from his people * ? and is there not much more in the scripture itself , which sends men not to itself so much , as to the hearing of god , christ , and the spirit , declared to the same purpose ? why then should it be thought an incredible thing with thee i. o. or any else , that god should speak to men and manifest himself , and what is to be known of him , and of his mind to their salvation ( if they heed it ) to them now in their own hearts and consciences ? doth not god himself speak are , yea twice , though man perceiveth it not , iob . . rom. . ● or that christ should manifest himself in a more speciall manner and measure then to the world , who observe not when he speaks , nor ●what he commands , to his servants that love him and keep his commands , or that he should come into them , rev. . . sup , abide , and be familiar with them , and ( not by the scripture so much , for the world hath that declaration , that know him not , but ) by his spirit of truth , which the world receives not , but resists , though it strives in them , and not without onely by the ministration of holy men conviaceth them , and preacheth to them , as in noahs dayes , not by noah onely , but in their consciences , should dwell in them , and , not in writings and proverbs onely , shew them plainly of the father ? john . . to . john . . or that any of his people that give eare to what he saith , and ●tar him , should have his secrets revealed in them , which god did then to his own people reveal to them within by his own spirit in them , which knew and made them know all things that were hid from meer 〈◊〉 men ( though never so wise ) even the deep things of god ? or that any man now , that lives not in the flesh ( as ye do ) but in the spirit , should say he is moved to speak , or prophesie , or reprove , or warn , or councel , or exhort and teach , or is inspired to write by the holy spirit ? or that any who learns at the mouth of god ( as ye do not ) out of which cometh knowledge and understanding , and not any way else , and ministers , as he is moved , of what he hath learnt there , should say he ministers no more then what he hath heard immediately from god himself ? or that any that have the spirit of god for their guide ( as ye have not , who walk not after the spirit , but after the flesh in your conversations , and after your own conjectures about a letter liable to be changed or corrupted in your congregations ) should say they are guided by an infallible spirit ? is the spirit of god , the light of christ fallible , as the letter is ? are they not infallible , certain , unchangeable , incorruptible , so that such as are led thereby cannot erre , nor be deceived ? do they lead into any iniquity , or uncertainty those that walk after them ? is it not they that leave the paths these lead in , and walk after the flesh , and live by their own thoughts and opinions of the letter , that is to be altered with ease at criticks wills ( whom thou i.o. teachest too to alter it ) in their religions , who run into by wayes ( for such the flesh leads to ) and into a wood of uncertainties , which the ba●e letter ( as it is now ) leads them into that look to it onely , and besides the light that gave it forth ? and are any the sons of god , save such as led by the spirit of god ? and doth not that spirit of god witness to the spirits of such within them , that they are his children ? yet what a marvellous monstrous business , what a mighty dirty , what a deal of do dost thou i.o. make in the , , , , . sect. of the . ch . of tr. . about this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or inspiration of god ? also elsewhere about the motion of the holy spirit , t.i.c.i. s. . . and elsewhere ( viz. ) t. . c. . s. , . t. . c. . s. . about both infallibility and divine inspiration , and the infallible spirit , and the guidance and infallible direction of the spirit . repl. thou writest of these things as if they were ( as indeed they are ) not onely far off from thee , but also far above out of thy sight , and not only so , but ( measuring all by thy self , and others corn by thy own narrow bushell , and , as thou falsely sayest of the qua. ep. p. . measuring other men by thy own ignorance , and what thou knowest not thy self , thinking its bid from others also ) thou removest them far away from all others also for many ages together , and from this very age wherein thy fallible erring self hast yet thy being , as if because thy motions and inspirations and spiritualities are fallible and carnall , and thy own spirit hypocriticall and imaginary , there were now none of that kind of spiritualnesse nor infallible inspiration , either in writings , or speakings , or walkings , or actings , any such direction and guidance of that true holy spirit of god , as was of old ; as if because thy self , and they that are after thy likenesse , neither hear at any time the voice of god , nor see his shape , nor have any such familiarity with his spirit , as you have with that in you , which lusteth another way , nor such as his ministers and prophets had in former ages , therefore none in these days witnesse any nearer communion and communication therewith then your selves do , or at least none such as his messengers of old did , but all were left to gripe for the wall with you , add for the doore like the blind sodomites ( your figure ) that ran in wrath upon righteous lot , as if they had no eyes ; as if the spirit of the lord were streitned from its immediate illumination of any , because it is so to you that strive against it ; and there were no such men ( because ye are not those men ) as perfectly learn ( without book ) what lessons by word of mouth god teacheth out of the sealed book of ●his own councels to them that are willing to be taught by him , as all his children are , isa. . . ioh. . . ier. . , . concerning the knowledge of himself and of his will. as if there were none at all now , nor ever to be any more while the world stands ( because your selves are not so ) any such , as were heretofor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 men of god inspired by the spirit of god , infallibly guided , moved , acted , or led in their preachings , writings , doings , by the infallible guidance and direction of that holy spirit . as if to be thus were to be more then mer , and so indeed it is , then such men as you , who being in the fall , and out of that wisdome and image , wherein ye were created , must ( for all that wisdom , ye are since then entred far into ) know your selves to be but the beasts that perish , ps. . . eccl. . . but not a jot more then to be men indeed . what mean'st thou else by those & the like phrases in the places above p●●●ted at ? wherein with limitation and restrictively to the primitive times , and exclusively of all after ages thou writest thus of these things ( viz. ) they were born , acted , carried out by the holy ghost * to speake , deliver , and write all that , and nothing but that to every tittle , that was brought to them , &c. suppose a man were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divinely inspired , and should so professe himself in the name of the lord , as did the prophets of old , amos . supposing i say he were so indeed , &c. repl. as if thou didst suppose , that if any man in these dayes should professe himself to be sent of god , as amos was , he must undoubtedly be a deluder : as if because ye witnesse no stronger motions from people to people , place to place , in your ministrations , then the assurance of some bigger benefice , better booty , or sweeter subsistence ( which is the primum mobile in most nationall mens minds , in their movings and removings to and fro ) and no more immediate mission from god then what is mediante magistratu , &c. by the magistrates and patrones of the place , or at the best the bare benevolence or good wil of the people ( whose ill will if ye have , ye will obtrude your selves up-them too , if the living like you , and you can but procure the patent ) it must needs be supposed and taken for granted thereupon , that such a sending as that amos had , is but falsly pretended to . so speaking of the hebrew points , they were , sayest thou , compleated by the men of the great synagogue , ezra & his companions guided therein by the infallible direction of the spirit of god. so speaking of the first transcribed copies of the scriptures of the new testament , thou sayest , there were copies quickly given out to faithfull men , whilst the infallible spirit yet continued his guidance in an extraordinary manner : and of the first transcribers thou saist in the next section , that they were not all or any of them infallible and divinely inspired . repl. now i say not that either all or any of these transcribers were infallibly or divinely inspired , nor canst thou say they were not ; for neither thee nor i know who they were , and they might or might not for ought either of us know , for the infallible spirit continued his guidance no doubt to such as took him , and not a fallibly transcribed letter to be their guide , both then and long after that , and also doth now in that manner which thou callest extraordinary ( though it was but his ordinary guidance ) to such as give up to him , and to any but such as thee , who being not guided by him , thy selfe conceivest it some strange and extraordinary businesse for any now adayes to professe themselves so to be , but with i.o. the extraordinary guidance of the spirit of god is his immediate and infallible guidance , his ordinary is his mediate fallible guidance : oh prime doctrine for a doctor ! surely if the spirit of god have any fallible guidance at all , and thou be led at all by him , he vouchsafed thee but his cheaper , ordinary , remote , and far off , and fallible guidance in this piece ; but it s his infallible guidance and direction , which thou callest extraordinary , he now guides by , for the spirit hath by indirect and false directions , nor fallible guidances that i know of . i say i meddle not to affirme one thing or other of all these transcribers , what they were it makes no matter , and is neither here nor there to me , whether they were infallibly guided or divinely inspired , yea , or nay ; but this i would fain know , what thou meanest by some of thy expressions , and wherefore thou talkest as thou dost , and what reason thou hast so reasonlesly to restrain and streighten the spirit of the lord , which to do is none of the lords doings , mic. . , , , , . and to pound him up into such a small point and pittance of time as the primitive ages ( as ye call it ) of the gospel , and to lock him up into that little narrow nick , so that he must either then speak all he hath to say to the world , and his owne people in it , or else for ever after hold his peace , and must inspire all he means to inspire , and lead and guide all he means to lead and guide by his own immediate , extraordinary and infallible direction then , or not at all ; there being now another ordinary fallible ruler , rule , guide , leader and commander of the people ( viz. ) some of the stories , letters , and epistles , that were written lately by his motion and direction to be by fallible men transcribed , and ere long by a synod of who knows whom ? to be authorized , as the onely and most perfect rule , directory , infallible canon , chief leader and commander , that must be wholly substituted in his room , and take his place , to which himself ( if ever he speak more ) must , as well as all false spirits , submit himself to be tryed , and be accountable , so that if he offer to lead , guide , move , inspire any to write , and speak , or prophesie , extraordinarily , immediately , infallibly , or any otherwise then ordinarily and fallibly , or immediately , or infallibly speak to any from thenceforth , so as to send them ( who were mad indeed , as the world counts them , if they should go unsent on such rugged service , which false prophets , ministers of the letter , and of mens making , who love their ease , and to sleep in a whole skin , will be sure to keep far enough from ) to reprove , as immediately from himself , and to warn the wicked world when it lies in wickednesse , or call men to repentance , or do as he has done by gods permission in that age , or if he send any of his messengers , as he did paul and others , to exhort , teach , reason , dispute , in towns , cities , vniversities , streets , markets , or to enter , never so peaceably , into the synagogues and temples to talk and make disturbance among the priests and their people there , after once the old testament iewish church is down , and the old testament christian church in many outward things after its likenesse is so well founded and established in its stead , that the priests and ministers thereof are warm , and begin to fit at ease in their functions of tithes , outward benefits and blessings , earthly honours , divine and ghostly titles of rabbi , doctour , lord arch-b●shop , arch-deacon , reverent clergy , orthodox divine and a mint more of such like clericall calleries , and spirituall renowneries , parochiall , provinciall , diocesian d●gnities , arch-advancements , and advantages , then both the said spirit of god and all his emissaries , messengers and messages , then and from henceforth shall be both rejected and condemned under their severall respective names of sch●sme , schismaticall , schismaticks , hereticall , heresie , hereticks , lying spirit , delusion , deluders , fanaticall , fanaticisme , fanaticks , enthusiasticall , enthusiasme , enthusiasts , dreames , dreamers , fictions , figments , quakers , and whatever other ignominious termes any ungodly scoffers can invent , and shall please themselves to reproach them by ▪ and moreover the said messengers shall be had and held as disturbers of the publick peace , and be proceeded against as rogues , vagrants , vagabonds , that ( as the first apostles had not for the gospels sake , though else they had ▪ and were as sufficient in the outward as other men , cor. . , , , , . ) have no certain dwelling place , and be ( as they often are in the same cause ) sent away with a passe ) banisht , whipt , ston'd , set in the stocks , imprisoned , boca●doed , and what way the magistrates shall please , at the suggestion or direction of the ministers , or the mayo●s by the advice of the vicechancelours ( who are supream directive , though the other corrective , as the constable is over the b●sholder , which at his appointment is to correct the beggars ) be defamed , shamefully abused , and intreated , and made a spectacle to the world , and to angels , and to men. now i. o. what meanest thou ? or what ground hast thou thus to forbid the spirit of the living god ? hath god prohibited him ? hath he any where limited himself from speaking immediately , infallib●y to the councel , guidance , comfort , assistance of his people ( in these latter dayes especially ) without book , any more than in former ages , before the letter was , and in the first age , wherein the gospel began to flourish , if men had not sneapt it , and the glorious light thereof to shine out as the sun in its brightnesse , but that the devil and his imps besmoak'd the sun and aire , whom in his just judgement god suffered so to do , because men began to dote one upon another , and to set up idols and images in their minds of good writings ( that were written for another end by the spirits motion ) histories , letters , epistles , and instead of the law of the spirit of life and light , which is by christ iesus , to magnifie the outward letter and make it honourable ; which is but mens wi●nesse for god , and to run a whoring after it from gods own witnesse , even his light and spirit in the conscience ? must the spirit be bound now by thee to read his minde to men in a book of mens writing at first by his own guidance , and of fallible mens mistanscribing from the hands one of another through so many ages , or else he must be silent , & not manifest his mind at all ? he must read his old sermons , it seems , but he must not preach new ones , he may read in the letter what he did reveale , but must come forth in no new revelations now of the old thing , nor preach immediately in mens minds any more , as he had done from the beginning of the world to that time , and inspired immediately whom he pleased : is not this to muzle him up , as the b●shops were wont to doe the parish curates , lest too much truth should come forth ; and as they do where the pope hath most to do at this day , so that they may read ( not too much scripture neither , for therein i confesse the case is a little altered for the better in england ) but old mouldy . mass books , and forms of service in latine of their own setting out , in which there is here a little and there a little sprinkling of some scriptures , mostly out of the psalms , which they most corrupt , and make certain sing songs out of , or if there be any homilies read , it s a mighty matter , but as those the friars make are worth little , and some of them worse then naught , so , as bad as they be , there is few sermons to be heard throughout the popedome : and as they allow men to read writings of their own setting out , but not preach nor speak in any other order , method , manner , or form of words , then as they find there , so thou wilt allow the spirit to speak to men in and by that letter he caused once to be written ; he may read his mind in mens hearts by that , or have it read by mens mouths one to another if he will , but no preaching now by himself within or by his immediate inspiration by men without , nor writing neither ; but it must come to the touchstone of what he bade paul , peter , or others to write , before which , whoso shall presume to say it is of god , or from god immediatly at all , though it do agree never so much with that ( as all that is of god and from him doth , and cursed be he that speaks contrary to what was of old written , rightly understood ) or shall say 't is truth before our time-serving tryers have tryed it by that , who understand it not themselves , much lesse are fit to try doctrines by it , let him be dealt with according to the foresaid provision against delusion , made of old in the night time while men slept , in that behalf . but is god , and christ , and the spirit , so sparing towards his people , and so niggardly in dispensing truth , in revealing his righteousnesse ( which he is now bringing neere ) and in shewing his salvation which now is not to tarry to them that long for it , and have long lookt for it according to his promise , as those narrow headed , niggardly hearted nothings and novices are , whose work is all along ( as dumb as they are from opening their mouths otherwise ) to bark and bite them back again , that having left off to linger any longer at their lips , and as well to feed from their mouthes , as to feed or put into them , make more hast then they would have them from the depths of hell and darknesse towards heaven , gods high and holy hill ? nay verily , he sayes to his servants , open thy mouth wide and i will fill it , and stands ready to make good that blessing he hath pronounced to such as hunger and thirst after righteousnesse ( viz. ) that they shall be ( from himself , who only reveales it ) no lesse then filled with it : thus liberal the lord and his spirit is . yet these are the doings of the churle , whose instruments are evil , and of the vile person , who ye● would fain be lookt upon as liberall too , as he hath been by such as saw him not in darker times , nor discerned how he fed himself , and not the flock , and minded his own matters , even to make meat for his own belly of them , more then to make meat enough for the sheep in that dark and cloudy day , ezek. . , , , , , &c. but the hour cometh , and now is , wherein a man , even a shepheard , whom he knows not , shall reign in righteousnesse , and be as rivers of waters in a dry place , and as the shadow of a great rock in a wea●y land , wherein the deaf shall hear the words of the book , which are sealed from the back-side admirer , the eyes of the blinde shall see out of obscurity , and out of darknesse , the eyes of such as seeing will see shall be no more so dimme as they have been , and the eares of such as hear must hearken unto him ; the heart also of the rash or hasty , that without heed have run they know not whether , shall understand knowledge , and the tongue of the stammerers be ready to speak plainly , they also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding , and they that murmured shall learne doctrine . then the vile person shall no more be called liberall , nor the churle said to be bountiful , for the vile person will work villany , and his heart will work iniquity to practise hypocrisie , and to utter errour against the lord , to make empty the soul of the hungry , and to cause the drink of the thirsty to faile , the instruments also of the churl are evil , he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poore with lying words , even when the needy steaketh right things : but the liberall deviseth liberall things , and by liberall things shall he stand : in that day the burden of the insolent antichristian assyrian , that hath so straightly besieged the people of god , that dwell in sion , and cut off from them ( so far as god would suffer him ) ▪ he stay & the staft , the whole stay of bread , and the whole stay of water , shall remove from off sions shoulders , and his yoke from off her neck , yea that yoke shall be destroyed because of the anoynting , isa. . . for the spirit shall be poured out upon them that wait for it from on high , and the liberall soul shall be made fa● , and he that watereth shall be watered also himself , and the wildernesse shall be a fruitfull field , in which judgement and righteousnesse shall remain , and the works of righteousnesse shall be peace , and the effect of righteousnesse quietnesse and assurance for ever , and they shall be blessed that sow beside all waters , and the soul of the diligent shall thrive and be fat , but the soul of the vile person and niggard , and of the sluggard shall desire , but have nothing , yea , their vintage shall faile , and their gathering shall not come , and their fruitful field shall be turned into a forrest , they shall be stript and made bare , and sit with sackcloth on their loins , and lament for the tears , for the pleasant fields , and the fruitfull vine , and their pallaces shall be forsaken , their tents and towers shall be for d●ns , and that which now is the pasture of wild asses , iob . . isa. . , . shall be no more enjoyed by them for ever , isa. . wherefore then ●ayest thou i. o. with restriction of the spirits guidance to those first generations thus ( viz. ) while the infallible spirit continued his extraordinary guidance ; and thus ( viz. ) guided therein by the infallible direction of the spirit of god , and , by way of exclusion of after-ages , and more expresly of this age , thus ( viz. ) they were born , acted , carried out by the holy ghost , to speake , deliver and write , &c. and suppose a man were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( . ) inspired of god , and should professe himself so , and were so indeed as the prophes of old , am. . let me expostulate the case with thee a little about these expressions , whereby thou seemest to shut all the past primitive times from any participation of the movings and actings of the spirit , as those that have neither part nor portion in that matter of his infallible guidance and direction . first then , not denying what christ himself foretold , iohn ● . , . iohn . . ( viz. ) that he would go away for a while , and his disciples should not see him , and the prince of this world which hath nothing in him should come , and interpose himself to the great interception of that primitive communion the saints then had with him and his spirit , so that he would not have very much talk with them thereafter : let me ask thee this much , did he say he would leave them for ever , and never have any talk or words with them more , then what they should find of his written in the scriptures , of such as should write some few things , and a little of that much which they knew of his minde ? did he say he should not speake at all , not so much as by his spirt ? nay rather , did he not say , that so soon as his fleshly pretence was withdrawn , he would send the holy spirit himselfe the comforter to supply the room of that personall and bodily appearance , wherein he then stood among them , which they were so in love with , and so loath to part with , that they were ready well-nigh to dote so upon it , as to let sorrow fill their hearts to think they should be utterly without his tuition , as sheep without a shepherd , if that should vanish and be removed ? in the departure and absence of which , notwithstanding he told them it would be never the worse , but much the better , and more expedient for them ? for if i goe away ( saith he ) the comforter cannot come , but if i go i will send him unto you : which comforter was himselfe in spirit ; the presence of which in the heart gives nearer acquaintance and fellowship with christ and the father , then his abode among them , & their sight of him in the flesh could possibly do : * for the sight of him in the flesh the world may have , and had , which is to little effect if the other be wanting ; but his presence in the spirit is that which is of power and efficacy , though yet in two different wayes ( viz. ) of bare conviction or condemnation to the one , and refreshment and consolation to the other , both to the world and to the saints , though there be no sight of him as in the flesh any more by either : i will send the holy spirit the comforter to you ( saith he ) and he shall convince or reprove the world also : doth christ therefore say he will leave them comfortlesse ( i.e. ) orphans , iohn . , . deprived utterly of his presence , because he said he ( i.e. ) in flesh would go away ? nay ( saith he ) i will come to you ( i.e. ) in spirit , the spirit of truth which dwelleth in you , and shall be in you , and though the world seeth me no more when i am gone , because though the spirit of truth be sent into them , and is nigh to men , even striving , preaching , reproving in them , yet they recieve him not , neither see him , nor know him ; yet ye see me , and because i live , ye shall live also : and doth he not say that this spirit of truth should lead and guide them into all truth , and bring all things to their remembrance whatever he spak● , while he was seen in the flesh ? which the letter doth not , for there were many more things that iesus spake and did , that are not written there , so many , that if they should be written every one , it might be supposed the world could not contain what should be written , john. . , , , . and howbeit he intimates a more sparing communion in spirit with his d●sciples and church , which would be permitted to come to passe by the coming in of the prince of this world , wherein there should not be so much talk as there should be before , and would be again after that gloomy day was once over , wherein the manifestations of him ( though as infallible in that small measure , wherein they should be made , for gradus non variant naturam rei , yet ) as to the measure , would not be so great as at other times ; of which going away , and withdrawing even in the spirit also he seemes to speak , when he saith , a little while and ye shall not see me : in which eclipse the chidren of the night must have a revelling night of rejoycing over the word , and spirit , and saints sitting in sackcloth , and an hour of laughter and merriment at the power of 〈◊〉 its prevailing , iohn . to . yet doth he say that eclipse should be ●o●a●l ? was there not some few in every age , in whom the spirit bare a testimony , and by whom to the blind world also of little truth ? and did he not say the spirit should be in them , and abide with them ( i.e. ) in the same manner of infallibility in manifestation of whatever he makes known , though not in the same measure of manifestation of the truth , even for ever ? iohn . . and did he not say that the spirit of truth should testifie of him when he came , and so consequently his testimony must be with his disciples and church for ever ? iohn . . which testimony is not that of the letter which men wrote at his motion ( as thou falsely supposest ) for that is mans mediate testimony , and not immediately the spirits , any more then the testimony that men bear by word of mouth , as they are moved ; of which in the very next verse ( i. e. ) iohn . . christ calls their testimony , and not the spirits , and ye also shall beare witnesse ( saith he ) putting a difference between his disciples testimony by the spirit , and that of the spirit by it self ; for that of the spirit is the word it self that is testified to by inspired men , whether in writing or speaking , and not the writing or the speaking it selfe . the word ( i say ) put by the spirit into mens mindes , and into their mouthes , which word is promised to abide with his for ever : and so saith i. o. many times over in his book , repeating that scripture , and putting almost the whole stresse of his ill cause upon it , and bringing it in the folly and blindnesse of his minde to prove the letter by the promise of god himself , of necessity to remaine inviolated , inalterable and uncorrupted for ever , whereas the spirit speaks it not of the letter at all , but of the word , which should be put into his peoples mouth , isa. . . the word which i put into thy mouth shall not depart from thy mouth , nor the mouth of thy seeds seed from henceforth , and for ever , which strengthens what i have now in hand to prove ( i.e. ) the continuance of the spirits immediate movings of god ; people under the gospel more or lesse , even for ever : and doth not christ also say , mat. . . to his disciples , and in them to his church , which is a successive body , and not simultaneous , nor appearing wholly in this world , at , nor altogether at one time , lo i am with you alwayes , even to the end of the world ; and if there have been a time of more darknesse then ordinary , even to his own , by reason of christs absence , and the devils presence in the world , yet more or lesse to his own , which are those that own him and heed his voice , he hath ever appeared ; but however , as his promise was to be with his more or lesse to the end , so at the end his promise is to be by his spirit more with them then ever ; i will ( saith he ) speaking of his returne after the mournfull time of his absence who is the bridegroom from the bride ) see you againe , and your heart shall rejoyce as a woman when her houre of travel is over , having no more remembrance of her sorrow , because a man child is borne unto her and into the world , and your joy shall no man take away , so that in these dayes we may expect more then ever was enjoyed before , the glory of the second temple being to be greater then that of the first , which was trodden down , & more pourings out of the spirit then the primitive ages had , these being the dayes wherein refreshment is to break forth from the face of the father , wherein he will send , act. . , , , , , to his church , iesus his son , who hath withdrawn and retired , and been retained in the heavens till these times ( who so readeth this let him understand ) which are the times of the restitution of all things that ever haue been out of order , and of his people , since they ran astray from god , which have been spoken of by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began . why then sayest thou , while the infallible spirit continued his guidance , as if after he should come he was to go suddenly quite away again , of whom christ , while present in flesh , saith he was after his passing hence to come and to continue in and with his people , mat. . throughout all ages , in all which ages he had people and a seed , as in eliahs time , rom. . , . and a remnant , though small and unseen , rom. . . left trodden under foot by the outward israel , that held the outward court , which were as the sand of the sea for multitude , even to the end , iohn . , . what did the promise of christ fail to his own because of the worlds unbelief ? and did he leave them to be guided by the prince of this world that was to come , and by his blind guides to guide and govern the world , and have his kingdome in it a while ? and was his own seed , which never consents to any iniquity , but condemnes it , given up by god , because the seed of evil doers was to be guided by the spirit of the god of this world , that totally blinded some from looking at the light , and by the man of sinne and son of perdition , to be strongly deluded to damnation by the mystery of his iniquity , who was permitted indeed to withhold , and hinder , and let not a little , till he should be taken away ? but after that wicked should be revealed in his time , was not the lord to be revealed again in his time , which is the principall , and most proper and seasonable opportunity for christ to appeare in his spirit , and shew himself in , tim. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in its proper times : and was he not to conjure the other lying spirit with the spirit of his mouth , which is not the letter , that declares of the word , but the living word it self , which opens the letter , also the sword of his mouth put then into the mouth of his seed as aforesaid , yea into the mouths of very babes , to the stilling of the enemy and avenger , and to destroy it with the brightnesse of his coming ? what spirit was to take the guidance of his people , if his own infallible spirit were not to continue with them for ever ? or would he deprive them of the presence of his infallible spirit in their hearts , and place it without in the fallible letter , so that if ever they would see or speak with his spirit , they must look for him , and hear what he testifieth there onely ( so i. o. talkes , t. . c. . ) and must go forth and talk with him there onely ( i.e. ) without , but not within , he being gone forth from his dwelling in the hearts of his people , now to dwell in the letter onely , and minded there and no where else to be spoken with . and why sayest thou while the infallible spirit of god continued his guidance in an extraordinary manner ; and again , t. . c. . s. . the infallible direction of the spirit of god ? hath god any other then that infallible spirit ? and if he meant to direct his people at all by his spirit in the dismal times that were to come , must it it not be by that infallible spirit continuing his infallible ( which thou callest extraordinary ) guidance and direction , or else by none at all ? or hath god two spirits to direct his own by at sundry times , one extraordinary and infallible , the other fallible and ordinary ? and hath that nfallible spirit of his two kinds of guidances and directions , one extraordinary and infallible , the other fallible and ordinary , which extraordinary and infallible spirit and his extraordinary and fallible guidance was to continue with them but a while , it being for high , and holy , and extraordinary dayes and times , the ordinary and fallible for more ordinary and lower dayes and times , as that the presence of which may as well serve the turn then , and his people must be contented with it ? so making them like the popish priests and people of the world , which have , as at rome and elsewhere , ordinary ornaments , lessons , anthems , songs and services , that must serve for every ordinary day , and extraordinary shewes , and sing-songs , and ornaments , and number of candles , and fine candlesticks , plush canopyes , and copes , altar-clothes , white surplices , pictures , pompes , and pipings , as on some great saints holyday , or festivall times , or general proecessions ; or as our poor still bepoped people have here , one fine suit for sundayes and holidayes , and a cheaper and lesse costly one for working dayes . or when this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or divine guidance and inspiration is pleaded by thee as peculia● to those first times , i inquire of thee whether there be any middle way , t. . c. . s. . but either that the saints in after-times ( if guided by the guidance of the spirit of god at all , and that thou darest not deny , though thou own his guidance by the letter onely ) be guided by it , as an infallible spirit , giving them that infallible guidance which thou callest extraordinary , or as a fallible spirit , allowing them not so much as the saints of old , but affording them onely some kind of ordinary or fallible guidance and direction ? for it remaines ( according to thy principles ) that it must be one of these , or else there is some middle way , some midling spirit of god , and some middle sort of direction of that spirit , that is neither fallible nor infa●lible , but between both , partly fa●lible , partly infallible ; some participie , that i● neither one nor the other , but taking part of both fallibility and infallibility : and howbeit this is such a messe of mixture as may well make awise man ( and excuse him in it too ) believe him to be no wiser then he should be , and to have hand plus cereb●i , quam cimex sanguinis , that makes it , yet i know not why thou mayst not as well make god to have two spirits , and his spirit two guidances ( viz. ) one infallible , one fallible , or one absolutely infallible , and another neither fallible nor infallible , as thou makest god to have two words ( viz. ) on that infallible living word , which the fallible dead letter declares of , the other that fallible dead letter , which declares of that infallible living word ; for each of these thou makest the word god ; yea , o the depths of the doctors and divines of our times ! thou art not onely so exceeding expert in cutting and cobling , dividing , and botching , and piecing , and patching for thy own turne , as , when thou wilt , to turn two into one and one into two , but also so well vers'd and exactly taught in the point of trinitizing , as to turne that one word of god at first into two , and at last , secundum quid , into three ; for whether we examine what thou sayest of either the letter , or the word it self , this testimony thy book beares to them both ; . as to the word , thou sayest in one place ( truly ) it's living , t. . c. . s. . in another place thou sayest ( horresco referens ) more then i dare say for the world , whatever i say of the letter , that the word is dead , t. . c. . ( but falsely figured our with the figure of . ) s. . . as to the letter , thou sayest in one place ( viz. ) ex . s. . it is living , and no where said to be dead , * yet in the forcited falsely figured chapter , s. . thou thy self ( as no where , as the letter is said so to be ) sayest thy own self that the letter is dead : thus gods one word is cut out by thee into two ( viz. ) the letter and that word , it witnesses of , and then each of these are cut out into three , for , which ever of these two be that t●ue word of god ; or if thou taking these conjunctively , wilt have them one , at least thy opinion , as exprest in those places put together , is tantamount to no lesse then this , ( viz. ) that god hath . a living word , . a dead word , . a word that is both dead and living . and why sayest thou of the prophets and apostles , they were borne , acted , carried out by the holy ghost , to speake , deliver , write , &c. and suppose a man were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inspired by the spirit indeed : as if it were a matter now not to be expected in this age , as if it were no lesse then a wonder ( but so the saints and prophets were in every generation to thy generation , therefore i wonder not that thou fo wonderest at it , that any should now professe so to be , though sapiens miratur nihil , and the things of god are no where wondered at or evil spoken of , but where ignorance of them is ) to see such a man as can truly say he is moved of the lord , and inspired with his spirit , whereas when was it otherwise in any age wherein god had saints ? and who is otherwise that is not in name onely but a saint or a christian indeed and truth ? was ever any otherwise , or lesse then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , inspired of god , that was born , acted , carried out by the spirit ? and was any otherwise or lesse then so , that is moved , guided , led by that spirit , to act , speake , write , &c. and ought any now , any more then formerly , or do any now , that are truly saints , act , write , speak , think any thing more then formerly out of the spirit , ●or in the flesh , that is of any savour , or hath any acceptance in the sight of god ? is that accepted of god , that is done , written , spoken , thought , ministred out of the spirit , or in the flesh , not in and by the motions of the spirit , but in and by the motions of the flesh , and in the wisdome and will of the flesh ? is not all that cains sacrifice , that is offered in that nature of his , or while men are yet but in the flesh , not in the spirit , which sacrifice is ( as all wicked mens are , while their ear is turned from the law in the spirit , i.e. the light , and spirit of god within ) abomination unto god ? and are not all i. o's . prayers , preachings , writings , who dare not pretend to have , live in , be moved , or guided by the infallible spirit of god in ought that he does , acted and done in the flesh , and the oldnesse of the letter ? and is any thing that 's done in the fleshly minde , thoughts , imaginations , wisdome , worth a rush , when the very wisdome of the flesh is enmity against god ? and ●all the enmity is to be slain , and not any of it accepted , or to be reconciled for ever ? do not all the israel of god ( that are israel , not after the flesh , or the letter , but after the spirit , the iewes and the circumcision , not outwardly in the flesh and letter , but inwardly in the heart and spirit ) do not all these minde the same thing , that one and the self-same spirit , and as far , and in such a measure , as every one hath attained it , walk by the same rule thereof , phil. . galat. ? walk they not in the same spirit ? walk they not in the same steps , which that spirit of god in them treads out for them ? have they not that spirit of christ ? and if any man have it not for his guide , leader , governour in all he doth , as well as his comforter , is he christs ? he that hath it not dwelling in him , infallibly directing , divinely inspiring him , is he christs ? do not all that are in christ iesus , to whom there is no condemnation , all save such as go condemned in themselves , to whom there is nothing but condemnation from god , walk , not after the flesh , but after the spirit ? do they not live in the spirit , walk in the spirit , pray in the spirit , sing in the spirit , serve in the spirit , and not in the letter , minister every one as of the ability god giveth from the spirit , not barely from the letter ? and so though they may use the very words that are letter , and be well read in the letter , and quote the letter ( as christ did , and the prophets , and apostles did the outward writings one of another ) and by the spirit be guided to utter the same words verbatim . see isa. . mic. . and be mightier in the letter then those that are ministers of no more then the letter , yet are ministers not of the letter , but the spirit . are they ( as well as the spirit is in them ) not in the flesh , but in the spirit ? are not all that are not in the night , and in the darknesse , and the children thereof , but the children of the day , & of the light , ( which is the lords day ) in in the spirit , rev. . . do they not by the spirit mortifie the deeds of the body ? are they after the flesh ? come they not by walking in the spirit , not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh , but to crucifie the flesh with the affections and lusts thereof ? doth not the spirit of god in them i ust against the flesh ? doth not the law of the spirit of life , which is by christ jesus , deliver them that follow it from the law of sin and death , that they were once captivated by ? doth not the spirit quicken and give them life ? doth it not help their infirmities , pray in them with sighs and greanes , and because they know not how to aske any thing as they ought , doth it not make intercession for them according to god ? are they not born of the spirit , and after the spirit ? doth not the spirit of god bear witnesse to their spirit , that are his children , that they are so ? doth it not reveale the great things of god , and by that revelation make them know the things that are freely given them of god ? is it not the unction from the holy one whereby they know all the things , the anoynting , which was the canon or rule of the saints from the beginning , before any letter was , which is truth , and is no lye , which if they quench not , grieve not , let it not , but let it abide and remain in them , will teach them infallibly of all things , so that they shall not need that any man teach them , and which they abiding in the doctrine or teaching of do not erre ( as the wicked world thinks they do ) but continue in the son and in the father ? are they not led by it from under the law , and out of the letter up into the life , which the letter speaks of , but it self onely giveth ? out of the works of the flesh , which in and by the light are manifest , into the fruits that it self brings forth ? doth it not bring all things to the remembrance of such as are led by it , as all the sons of god are , that ever christ spake ? doth it not guide all such into all truth , and onely into truth , and not into any falshood , delusion , or deceit ? doth it not take of christs and shew it unto them ? doth god do all this first or last , more or less for all his people , and doth none of all this amount to so much as the motion of the spirit , or divine inspiration ? are there no spirituall men now in the world ? and is not every spiritual man a prophet , or more then a prophet ? for though all in the church are not prophets on such a score , and in so high a rank as thou reckonest on ( i.e. ) such as have witnessed a sending forth abroad on some service to others , the service of some lying yet nearer home , and in present reference onely to themselves , some like the sons of the prophets at iericho and bethel , kings . kings . being yet under the schoolmaster that leads to christ , in their nonage , going , as it were , to schoole ( not at athens , nor yet at oxford , nor cambridge , where the schools are not like that of theirs , neither is the waiting in order to the ministry like that of the sons of the prophets at iericho , but rather like that of those , to whom it was said , tarry at iericho till your beards be growne ; which injunction many of our iunior academicall students do not keep neither , for howbeit , barbá non facit philosoph●m nec cucullus monachum , much lesse do either of these make ministrum christi , yet severall of them , if a good living can be had before , do not abide so long , as till they be masters of either beard or hood , but are ready to run out with the shells on their heads , and to hasten into their humane work of prophesie before that time ) but at bethel ( i.e. ) the house of the lord , waiting at the gates of wisdome it self , and watching daily at the posts of her house , taking councel at the mouth of god , out of which onely cometh knowledge and understanding , learning of him in silence with all subjection to his will , as in the light it is manifest concerning themselves first in the particular , purging their own persons first from youthfull and noysom lusts , that they may go forth , if the lord please to send them , and say go , as vessels of honour sanctified and fitted for the masters use , and prepared to every good work , tarrying at ierusalem till they he indued with power from on high , till of carnall babes in christ , as they are at first , walking as other men , having a remainder of strife and such divisions as are seen in children , they may proceed , men indeed skilfull in the work of righteousnesse , having their senses exercised to discern both good and evil , and commence masters , not of arts , but over their own hearts , and spiritual , or prophets : which are intimated to be all one by the apostle in the same epistle , wherein he saith , some are yet but babes , and in a measure carnal , and all are not yet spiritual , nor prophets , corinth . . , , . corinth . . . cor. . . yet all to covet the gift of prophecy , as the best of spirituall gifts , yet inferiour in excellency to that way of love . though then i say all be not prophets , yet all spiritual ones are prophets , or more then prophets ; and there are some spiritual in these dayes : are not all that are filled with the spirit prophets , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inspired by the spirit , mic. . . acts . acts . as micah , stephen , and the seven were ? and are not all christians bidden to be filled with the spirit ? and to let the word of christ dwell richly in them , teaching , &c. ephesians . colossians . ? and what such difference is there between being led by the spirit , and guided by the spirit ? and is not he that is guided by it , guided infallibly , and every one that is led by it , led infallibly ? and doth not every one that walks after it walk surely and infallibly , and he that is enlightned by it enlightned infallibly ? and he that speaks , sees , writes , acts by it ( as all saints should do , though fallible in themselves ) do all this infallibly ? and is not he that is moved by it , whether he obey its motions yea or no , moved infallibly into that which is assuredly the truth and no lie ? yet i.o. jeers at all pretence to any infallible guidance by the spirit of god in these dayes , as fancy , delusion , far aricisme , &c , and at the spirit of god it self , which the qua : own , as their truest teacher ironically under that term of the infallible doctor : and t.d. makes it matter of hainous crime in the qua : to talk of infallibility in christs ministry now , saying p. . pamp. thus , and as to the question of the infallibility of their ministry , three iurates of sandwich will testifie that they did affirme their ministry to be infallible : as if it were matter of amazement to him , that men should mention such a matter as infallible guidance of christs ministry , by his own infallible spirit in these dayes : as if he gave it for granted to us ( who take him at his word , for it is a truth ) that their own ministry is but fallible , their guidance therein by no more then their own fallible spirits , and may be utterly destitute of the spirit of god , which is infallible , ( for no fallible spirit hath god that i know of . ) no marvell therefore to me that t.d. so readily grants ( as himself sayes he does ) p. . of his . pamph. that none of his people can set to their seal , that his ministry hath brought them to a perfect man , &c. for i know not how it should if it be a fallible one , as he confesses 't is , while he denies any ministry now to be infallible , and affirmes perfection itself too , but so far as to be made free from sin , to be not onely unattainable in this life , but also to be no lesse then a doctrine of devils for any to preach it . see p. . pamph. but whereas he sayes p. . the ministry was not intended for that end , i.e. to bring to a perfect man , or to perfect men in this life , where they deny perfection attainable . rep. i reply , that 's false , and expresly contradictory to eph. . , , . where its said , the gospel ministry ( which obtains its end in this life , or else is not perfect according to i.o. and ceases in that to come ) is given for that end , viz. for the perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministry , for the edifying of the body of christ : how long ? till we all come in the unity of the faith , and of the knowledge of the son of god unto a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of christ. and as for t.ds. asserting the infallibility of the spirit to be an idiom , a property of the spirit , as incommunicable to the saints that partake of the spirit , as omnisciency , which agreed not to christ as man , or omnipotency is p. . . pamph. rep. i say that 's meer flim-flam , as to the point in hand , for we assert the saints and ministers of christ no farther infallible , then they follow the leading of the spirit , which is infallible , out of which they are not in their ministry , and so far as following that , which is given to be all mens guide , men and ministers ( whom we confess to be all fallible in themselves , as abstract from that , and not only liable to erre , but erring actually as they leave off to be led by that , and lean to their own understandings ) are all ( so far i say ) infallible , and infallibly guided ; for as god hath no fallible spirit , so his infallible spirit hath no fallible guidance , nor leads any fallibly at all , but all infallibly , who are led by it into all truth , so as in all those things it teaches , and are needful for them to know , to make them , otherwise fallible and ignorant thereof in themselves , not only infallible , but ( as to all thoe things i say ) omniscient , as himself is omniscient in all things absolutely without exception . neither are omnisciency and omnipotency themselves , as to all those things that are to be known and done by such , so altogether incommunicable to spiritual men as our academical animals imagine they are ; for though god , christ , and the spirit only know and can do all things absolutely , yet , through god , christ , and the spirit , teaching , leading , guiding , revealing , enabling , all things , i.e. all things that are truly good , fit , suitable , comfortable , profitable for such , are both infallibly to be known , and possible to be done by the ministers of god in their respective services and seasons ; whereupon the wisdome of god hath spoken thus of the spirit , as in reference to the saints that learn of him , receive and are led by him , he shall lead you into all truth , bring all things to your remembrance , whatever i have said , ye have an unction little children , and ye know all things , and not only of the spirit it self , that it searcheth all things , even the deep things of god ; but of the spiritual man also , to whom the spirit reveals them , that he discerneth all things , when the animal man nor doth nor can perceive the things of the spirit ; and that the spiritual men had the mind of christ , ioh. . . ioh. . . ioh. . . . cor. . . . . and not only so , but saith paul , who had no sufficiency of himself to any thing , i can do all things thorough christ that strengtheneth me , phil. . . ●anta ischus and col. . . of the saints . enpase dunamei dunamumensi strengthened with all might , i.e. omnipotency . whereas therefore t.d. prates , as his fellow preachers do of the other incommunicables , of these things , i say 't is parret-like , of he knows not what himself ; for as in such wise and measure as saints are partakers of his holiness , purity , perfection , mercy , &c. they are holy as he is holy , pure as he is pure , merciful as he is merciful , perfect as he is perfect , though not so absolutely and infinitely pure , holy , meriful , and perfect , as he is , so , so far , and in such a measure , as they are led by his spirit , and indued with his power from on high , they are , and in the scripture are said to be , not only infallibly assured of things , which is tantamount to infallible , luke . , , , . act. . . and to have plerophorian full assurance ; but also omniscient , omnipotent , panta anakcinontes , eidontes , iscuontes , &c. and whereas t. d. sayes , p. . the apostles themselves did not partake of that divine property of infallibility , giving also this reasonless reason for it ; viz. for then they would have been infallible at all times , and in all things , which they were not ; as appears by the instance of peter , gal. . . rep. in this as he contradicts the scripture ; so i. o. himself serves us so far as to contradict him to our hands , for howbeit he denies any participation of infallibility to us , or any ministers in these dayes , and also to the very immediate transcribers of the scriptures , saying , p. . we say , not they were all or any of them anamartetoi , infallible , yet he denies it not to the first writers , p. . and as for his proof , that if they were infallible at all , then they would have been so at all times , and in all things . that is as pedling a proof , as he would count it , if i should go to prove that david was not at al partaker of the property of holiness , because he was not holy , but wicked at that time , and in that thing wherein he was desil'd in the matter of vriah , which t. d. would judge as silly an argument , as i judge t. ds. assertion silly , who sayes that david was not i ● a condemned but in a justified estate ; alias , accounted just in the sight of god at that time , when he was under the guilt of adultery and murder , which a wise man need not be taught to see the folly and fowlness of . thus then i. o. and t. d. do unminister themselves at least , by denying any to be theopneustoi , infallibly guided by the infallible spirit in these dayes , both of whom i may truly bespeak thus : say ye that gods inspir'd ones are all gone ? then ye of gods inspired ones are none . and who that 's wise will mind i. o. much in what he saith about things of god , who cannot pretend so far as to say he is , but rather yeilds to the contrary , viz. that he is not mov'd , acted , carried forth , nor guided in what he does speak , write , minister , by the infallible direction of the infallible spirit of god , but by the fallible guidance of his own and other mens fallible spirits , opinions , conjectures , thoughts , & c ? who but - f●ols will take such a fallible guide as i. o. is fain to confess he is , while he denies any guided by the infallible guidance of gods spirit in this age ? yea , doth he not utterly unminister himself and all his fellows , while he supposes none now to be theopneustoi , moved and inspired by the spirit in their ministerial functions , nor to speak as the spirit only gives utterance , and as they receive the word immediately out of the mouth of god , and while he can say no farther of himself and them , but only that they minister out of that furtive furniture , which in their fleshly minds they filch from the letter , which , out of which , and from their fallible expositions of which , they minister , and of which they are ministers , and not of the spirit , as the apostles and prophets were , which gives the life ? and is not he an ill bird that bewrayes his own nest , an ill son that discovers his own , and his fellows , and his fore-fathers nakednesses so far , as to print it out as obvious to all , that the infallible guidance of the infallible spirit is not continued with them , nor to be found in these dayes directing any otherwise then without , by an outward letter , which is fallible and lyable to be falsified at fallible mens pleasure and fancy , and to deny all inward pure revelation , and immediate inspiration as enthusiasm , and to say that there 's no means of doing and determining any thing about the matters of god , or doctrine of christ now , but the letter or writing , t. . c. . s. . and yet in the self-same section , to the contradicting of himself , to say , that that doctrine , and these things of god and christ , are things of pure divine revelation , the knowledge whereof depends upon no such fallible thing , as all outward writing is now , by his own confession , but wholly , solely on their revelation from god ? and what difference is there i.o. between such a one as is pheromenos upo tou pneumatos , and one ag●menos , or to whom the spirit of the lord is odegos , or egoumenos ? are not all these so neer kin , that he who is agomenos , is pheromenos ? is not he who is led , guided , acted by the spirit , moved and carried forth by the spirit ? and are not all saints led by it ? and what difference between one that speaks as moved by the spirit , or as the spirit gives utterance , and one that hath it given him by the spirit what to speak , so that he need not premeditate what to say ? and have not all the saints and disciples of christ a share and part in that promise of having it given them what to speak at the same houre when they are call'd before rulers and governours for christs sake , mat. . , , . and what between one that is divinely inspired to speak , and one in whom the spirit of the father speaketh ? is it not intended of all gods children and christs disciples , in the case aforesaid , as well as of some , when it s said , it is not you that speak , but the spirit of the father , which speaketh in you ? and is it not said of all that prophesie in the church of god , as all are to covet to do , and are in capability to come to do , and may do one by one , as they grow in the spirit , and have any thing revealed to them as they sit before the lord , in which ca●e they are to give way to each other , that the unbelievers and unlearn'd ones in the mysteries and language of the spirit ( and such are ye that surseiting with your inferiour literature , out of the light and spirit in which holy men wrote it , ly looking in the letter of the scriptures , which ye know not , as the old scribes did not . mat. . . but wrest to your own ruine ( o insipidi sapientes , obtus ▪ acuti academici , quae supra vos nihit ad vos ) in the account of christ , paul and peter , as unlearned as christ himself was with some , and as very babler as paul was at athens , as unlearned as peter was counted by the chief priests & scribes when he and iohn stood before them , acts . . pet. . . ) being convinced and judged of them all , and having the secrets of their hearts manifested , shall be forced to their own shame to fall down , and report at last that god is in them of a truth ? cor. . , , . and what difference is there , that can help thy cause , between pneumaticos and theopneustos , a spiritual man , and one by the spirit inspired , or a prophet ? doth not the difference that is serve us against thee , whilst it s no other then thus , that of the two , the spiritual man is the greater ? for if every prophet is not a spiritual man , yet all spiritual men are prophets , or more then prophets : and that there are spiritual men in these dayes , thou wilt prove thy self to be ( what thou art ) but a meer animal , and fleshly man in denying ; for as there are millions , even many more then a good many spiritual men , in title , so assuredly ( as few as they are ) there are a good many so in truth , and so many as are so , are more then prophets or inspired ones , that are but barely mov'd to speak or act by the spirit ; for all holy men of god spake and wrote of old , and speak and write now , as they are acted or moved of the holy spirit ; but all that speak as the spirit of god may move , act , and give them utterance , are not holy men of god , for prophesie is but a gift that wicked men ( though seldome ) yet sometimes may have , who never come into that more excellent and spiritual way , which is to last when all prophesie is ceased , of living in love , and other fruits of the spirit , witness balaam the prophet , that lov'd the wages of unrighteousness , and taught balaak king of moab to cast a stumbling block before israel , and to eat things sacrificed to idols , and to commit fornication , whose way you follow , who neither live the life , nor will ( unless ye repent for all your hopes so to do ) die the death of the righteous , and that you will see when you fall into his trance with your eyes open , as you will at last , so as to see him , even that star of iacob , as he did afar off , not nigh , but with a gulf betwixt , and lazarus in his bosome ; though you are yet in a t●ance of your own , with your eyes shut , and not come so far into the bare sight of truth as balaam was , who for all his wickedness was moved of the lord , and overpowred by the word of god , put into his mouth , to speak many precious truths , and full sore against his will , which would have been at work another way for hire , and have cursed and divin'd against them for money , to bless israel altogether , numb . . witness also caiphas the high-priest , who gave the iews wicked counsel against iesus , and yet prophesied that iesus should dye for that nation , and gather into one all the children of god that were scattered abroad , which not knowing well the true meaning of his own words , he spake not of himself ( as ye do of your selves , not understanding well what you say , uttering in words many eminent truths out of the prophets , and of the prophets , which not knowing the prophets voices , ye fulfill to your own ruine ) but by way of prophesie , as the spirit made use of his mouth to utter it , iohn . . , . and was not saul also among the prophets ? so that evil men may be moved and inspired by the spirit , and obey also so as to prophesie , as they are moved , led , or acted by the spirit , who never obey the spirits motions of them to better and greater matters , that spiritual men obey him in ; yea fleshly selfish men may be moved and made of the lord ( which is more then ye yet are ) prophets of true things ; but what holy and spiritual man is not a prophet , or not inspired , or not truly moved of the lord , or ( however fallible in himself , as other men ) is not anamartetos , or infallible , as led by the spirit ? wherefore then makest thou this matter theopneustian , or divine inspiration , or moving of the spirit such a singular thing , as peculiar onely to the dayes of old : nay verily though all men are not so far inspired and moved of the spirit as to be made prophets , yet if by the term theopneustia , thou mean bare inspiration and motion of the spirit , and speak of that thing it selfe , and not of such or such a degree or measure of it , canst thou tell me the man or woman vpon earth , ( letting onely infants and meer fanaticks aside ) who are not , or have not , at some time or other , been moved by and with good motions to better things then they follow , inspired by the holy spirit ? who is there ( ●aving him who walks no more after the flesh , but after the spirit , and so is not excepted from , but more highly accepted into this theopneusty , or inspiration ) in all the world , of either heathens by name , or meer nominall christians , that are as reall heathens as the other , who cannot truly say video meliora pr●b●que , deterior a sequor ? and what is that in them , who have no outward scripture , that makes them say , and gives them to see that they behold and approve of better things while they practise worse ? is it not the same light and spirit within , by which christ went and preached to the spirits in prison , when once the long suffering of god waited , while the ark was preparing ? is it not the spirit of truth that guides the followers of it into all truth , and strives with men , though the stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart , and cares alwayes resist and strive against it , and lusts in them against the lustings of their flesh to filth and envy , & c ? is it not that which convinceth and reproveth the world of sin , because they believe not in christ , and of righteousnesse and judgement , so that they know righteousnesse , and the righteousnesse and truth of the judgement of god , that who do such things as they do are worthy of death ; though yet they enter not into the narrow path of righteousness and life , nor repent to the acknowledgement of the truth ? and though the earth , by reason of the transgression , till god create the heaven and earth again anew , as he did in the beginning , be without form and void , and darknesse be upon the face of the deep ; yet in order to its coming into order again by the new creation , doth not the spirit of god move upon the face of the waters , where the whore sitteth , peoples , multitudes , tongues and nations ? and doth not god say , let there be light , and there is light shining in the da●kness● , though the darknesse comprehends it not ? and doth he not separate these clearly in mens consciences , the inner world , from each other , calling the light day , and the darknesse night ? and do not many of you men called ministers , use to teach your unconverted people to take the advantage of the spirits moving upon their hearts , and not to quench them , but to step in while it moves , least , like those that lay diseased at the pool of bethesda , waiting for the moving of the waters by the angel , that came down ( which in the antitype is not the letter , but the spirit ) not waiting for the movings , or neglecting to observe and obey , and close with the spirits motions , before the motions of sin in the flesh step in and cool and quench them , they lie unhealed , and be left unsaved for ever , and at last no more moved by the lord and his spirit , because he often would have led , drawn , guided , and gathered them unto himself , but only that they would not ? will you neither believe the qua. nor your selves neither , that there are times and opportunities wherein evil men of the world , who never are led into higher things by the spirit , because they refuse to follow it where it strives , are moved , theopneusto , breath'd and blown upon , and inspi●ed with good motions from the spirit , and hear the sound of it , as of the wind , though not heeding it , never come to be born nor begotten by it unto god , nor to know either whence it cometh , or whether it goeth , or the hidden life of those that are not so full of ta●tle about regeneration , as ye are , who are born no higher then of flesh and blood , and the will of man to your fancied faith , but born from above of the spirit , and of god in very deed ? doth god then more or less move all men by his spirit , and doth he not move his own people in these dayes by his spirit ? doth he inspire evil ones sometimes so far ( though we find few or none of that gang now so far in sight as they were , unless they see and say they do not ) as to make prophets of balaams , sauls , and caiphasses ? and will he now have none in his own church of the seed of david himself ? and doth he do greater things for them , and draw them up into his own image , a state that must stand when all prophesie shall have an end , and will he not do that lesser and lower thing for them by his spirit , i.e. to use several of them as his prophets ? and if he have prophets whom he divinely inspires , will he do any thing of moment in these last most extraordinary times , and not reveal his secrets to his servants the prophets ? and will he reveal his mind to his prophets , as he did to amos and others , and will not they go forth and prophesie ? when the lord hath spoken , who can but prophesie ? when he gives the word himself ( as he doth in these dayes into the mouths of babes ) how great must be the company of those that publish it ? yet such as i.o. who of the two are better acquainted with the liberal arts , then the liberal hearts , would shut these dayes , to which the promise of prophesie , inspiration , revelation , vision , infallible manifestation ( as to the measure of it ) is mostly made , from sharing at all in these things with the primitive times , which had but the earnest , first fruits , sprinklings and droppings of that , which in fulness was to fall down , and be poured forth in these last generations ; and because these seers see not , and these prophets prophesie not themselves ( the sun being set upon them , and they being benighted in that massy chaos of their own self-devis'd divinity , that they cannot divine where they are , nor infallibly what they have to do ) they say to the lords own seers , see not , and to his prophets , prophesie not , unless you will prophesie smooth things and deceits , as we do , and cause the holy one of israel to cease from before us ; and because they cannot let their word be as the word of all the prophets , who with one voice flattered ahab to his own ruine , but must speak what god bids them , which is never good , but evil , of an evil generation , therefore they hate them , care not for enquiring of them , but represent them to princes and people , as odi●us as they are able , as fanaticks and fools , so that as 't was of old , so 't is now , the prophet is a fool , the spiritual man is mad , and become hatred in their houses of god , and as haughty haman did , who lookt for more cap and congee then honest mordecai could honestly give him , incensing the powers of the earth against them , esth. . . as a certain people scattered abroad , and dispersed among the people in all the provinces of the realm , whose laws are ( as gods are from meer mans ) divers from all people who keep not the laws ( which yet they keep better in case of tythes , and some other things by far , then the nations own lawyers , priests , and people ) so that it cannot be for the kings profit to suffer them ( though they are , for all they carry neither sword , nor spear , the very chariots of england , and the horsemen thereof ) and therefore as modestly as he , desiring , if it may please the powers that the heads of them may hang high enough for examples sake , and the rest of the race some way or other be destroyed , and if not , banisht ( at least ) for all their womanish complainings thereof , punish'd and imprison'd , which they by their tumultuousness pull voluntarily on themselves , as such whose lyes , deceits , wickednesses , hypocrisie , are testimony enough of their non-perfection to us , quoth i. o. who rakes in what reports the rude multitude raises on them , & prints them out , & makes such ill use to himself of the ill doings of some that fall from the light ( whose miscarriages are less own'd by them that stand in it , then by any ) as to saddle the wrong horse , and among many others , as unreasonable as himself in that , for the sakes of such as turn from it , to speak , write , and act no little evil against the truth it self : and whether i. o. who keeps such a scraping of their divine inspiration , in honour of the old prophets , who are long since in their sepulchres and tombs , which the old scribes garnisht , and of the apostles , paul , peter , &c. to whom the latter scribes , together with their pictures upon them , have devoted high pillars at rome , and beautiful temples and colledges , &c. call'd after their names throughout christendome , who were ( as all persecutors still are ) the seed and children of such as flew them , and thinks if he had been in the dayes of those his fathers , he would not have been a partaker with them in their blood ( who yet is now helping to fill up the measure of the chief priests , who were ever the chief persecutors of gods people , that wrath may come upon them at last unto the uttermost ) would not indeed have done the same things to them , had he been coataneous with them , that he hath done to their seed and successors , in faith , life , light , doctrine , motion , mission , and conversation , in these daies ; i for my own part know so well , that i need none to tell me ; but as for i. o's part , who yet knows neither himself nor others , nor the ancient , nor the modern prophets and apostles , nor the false in these dayes from the true , nor any thing yet as he ought to know it : i wish him singly to consult with that of god in his conscience , to which i appeal , which will give him to know it as truly as i do . so then it s not for want of prophets , that our great professors are so unprofiting , nor of men divinely inspired to call them to repentance , and ( if need be ) to expound the scripture unto them according to the true mind of christ exprest therein , which these theopneustoi only have , and not the most excellent and expert of their expositors , who have it not by pure revelation from the spirit , cor. . . , . for there are true prophets abroad , that are truly moved in what they speak and write , by the spirit of the lord , though i. o. saith they are not , as well as false , who are not moved of the spirit when they say they are : there are pneumaticoi and agioi theou anthropoi upo tou agiou pneumatos pheromenci spiritual and holy men of god carried out by the holy spirit , as of old , as amos and other prophets were , who are able to manifest more of the mind of god , and open the old scripture , and give out more of the true meaning thereof , by writing and preaching in an houre , being in the light and wisdome of that spirit of god , which gave it forth , then is opened truly by the worldly-wise and spiritually-dim-sighted-divines , in all those vast volumes , that they vent out of their own infinite inventions , and in all the sermons , that such simonists from the supposed spiritual gifts they have got with their own money , and give out again by way of sale to the people for their money , throughout the year ; yea , there 's more truth told , and more of the riches of christ , and of the hidden mysteries of the gospel , that have ( as of old ) been kept secret again since the dayes of apostacy from the apostolical ministration , brought to light in this iuncture , and much more will be , in the day that 's yet but dawning , * by some one sheep of christ , that went astray after the hollow voice of selfish shepherds , who served and fed themselves , under a seeming shew of serving and feeding the flock , but is now returned to hear the voice of the great shepherd , and over-seer of souls , then by ninety and nine of tho●eforesaid hireling shepherds , that never yet went astray from themselves , or the serving of themselves , since they began to be other mens masters , and their own servants to this day ; there are , i say , sundry such spiritually inspired ones , not a few of which are moved and sent of the lord , as his messengers and scribes , both by writing and word of mouth , to warn a wicked seed of serpents , and generation of vipers , to repent , and bring forth fruits worthy of amendment of life , and to flee from the wrath that is now neer to come upon them , as on children of disobedience to the light of god in their own consciences , who lay the lords axe to every stout oak of bashan , and tall cedar of lebanon , and every tree that 's lofty and lifted up , to the root of every fruitless fig-tree that hath long cumbred the ground , since the lord hath spared it in hopes of fruit , and is yet covered with no other covering , then adam and eve made to themselves when they had sinned , even the broad fig-leaves of fair forms , good words , sacred shews , ample appearances , cains sacrifices , esau's tears , fleshly israels formal fastings , proud pharises misfigured faces , hypocrites holinesses , painted pretences , as little possession as much profession , as little walking in , as much talking of truth , bible beautifying , letter landing , anti-scriptural scripture defending discourses , without that life of holiness , power of godliness , and fruits of righteousness it calls for : there are several , who with habakknk , ch. . . are got upon their watch tower , hearkning to what god saith in them , who have found nothing to answer when the lord hath risen up to visit them , and when they have been reproved by him , iob . but have sat speechle sand ashamed in silence before him , bearing his indignation , because they have sinned against him , and have had their filth purg'd away by the spirit of iudgement and burning , and felt woe within themselves , as men undone , of unclean lips , and dwelling among people of unclean lips , at the sight of the king the lord of hosts , whose iniquity hath been taken away , and their sin purged , by the touching of their lips with a live coal from the altar , to whom as they have waited for it , the vision hath come at the time appointed , and hath not tarried , who having tasted of the cup of trembling within themselves , hab. . and known the terrour of the lord ( as all the prophets and true apostles did before they were sent of the lords errand to perswade others , cor. . ) and having seen the son of man coming in his kingdome in righteousness to judge the world , and all the people with equity , have since been sent among such as hate them , that reprove in the gates , and make men offenders for a word from the lord , to sound an alarum , to cry aloud and not spare , but lift up their voice as a trumpet , telling the people that seem to delight in approaching to god , and seek him daily , asking of him the ordinances of iustice , and not for saking the outward ordinance of their god , but are frequent in fasting and afflicting their souls , and hanging down their heads like a bull-rush for a day , and calling out , lord give us light , for we are in the dark , direct us in thy truth , lead and guide us in right paths , and such like , as if they did delight to know gods wayes , as a nation that did righteousness , telling such , i say , that they may fast long enough , and yet god take no knowledge of it , and find no pleasure in their fasts , so long as in and after their fasts they find their own pleasure , and live in strife and debate , and sue christs sheep at the law for tythes , and not only tear off the fleece from their backs , but flea their very skins and flesh from their bones , and smite with the fist of wickedness , and that this is not at all to fast to the lord , nor the way to have their voice to be heard on high , while their hands are full of blood , and their singers defiled with blood , and their lips speak lies , and their tongues mutter perversenesse , proudly , contemptuously , and disdainfully against the righteous , and they hatch cockatrice eggs , and weave the spiders web , and make such laws as intangle the innocent , which venemous creatures can crawl over and escape out of : that the fast which god hath chosen is to loose the bands of wickedness , to let the oppressed israel , or just seed of god go free from the house of bondage , into which that spirit of pharoah hath brought them , and to undo the heavy burden , and break every yoke within and without , &c. which doing , their light shall break forth as the morning , and their health shall spring forth speedily , and they shall call , and the lord will answer , and say , here am i when they cry , and he will guide them himself continually by his light from himself in their own hearts , and their light shall rise out of obscurity , and their darkness be as the noon-day ; otherwise , if they leave the plain paths of uprightness to walk in the wayes of darkness , and come not to the light that shines in their consciences , sciences , and the law of god which is not far off , but nigh in their hearts , that they may know and do it , but hate and abhor it , and persecute the ministers and children of it , and make to themselves crooked paths , whatsoever walketh therein shall not know peace ; yea , iudgement shall be far from them ; and iustice never overtake them , and they shall wait for light , but behold obscurity , and for brightness , but shall walk in darkness , and groap for the wall like the blind , as if they had no eyes , and stumble at noon-day as in the night , a●d be in desolate places as dead men , and roar like bears , and mourn sore like drues , and look for salvation , but none shal come , because their transgressions are multiplied before the lord , and their own sins testifie against them , and their transgressions are still with them , and as for their iniquities by the light within they know them , transgressing and lying against the lord , and departing away from god , while they pretend to draw nigh unto him , speaking still oppression and revolt , conceiving and uttering from their heart words of falshood , turning iudgement away backward , and causing iustice to stand afar off , causing truth to fail in their streets , and shutting out of equity that it cannot enter , making a prey of him that departeth from iniquity , and mocking the lord , and making him believe ( as far as they can with their flattering words , and sained turnings unto him ) that they love his truth , his light , and his life , yet in truth saying in their hearts to god , depart from us , we desire not the knowledge of thy wayes : there are such who blow the trumpet , as of old the prophets did to the same tune , and the like to this that is above , whose trumpet gives as certain a sound as theirs did also , and not such an uncertain fallible one as that of the priests : and these theopneustoi , or divinely inspired persons , in their writings , speakings , call for attendance , reception , and submission , not with that supreme authority ( i confess ) which i. o. as falsly as foolishly both supposes and saves , t. . c : . s. . antient divinely inspired scripture calls for , which is , quoth he , not only in comparison with , but also in opposition unto all other wayes of coming to the knowledge of god , his mind and w●ll , &c. for by his leave , or besides it either , the light and infallible spirit it came forth from , may not only well compare with its fallible and falsified self , as people now have it transcribed , translated , twisted and twined which way any unrighteous writers , either of it , or on it , any men-pleasing praters , tythe-taking talkers , or time-serving turn-coats are pleas'd to take it , and turn it , and wrest it to their own present ends and future ruine ; but al●o may well , and doe challenge attendance to themselves with far more supream and uncontroulable authority then it can , yea , as the s●●e and only meanes of coming to the knowledge of god , his mind and will , whom and which all the scribes and scripture-searchers in the world nor have , nor can know , without the light and spirit , any more then the old ones did , ioh. . matth. . or then anyone can see the outward sun by any light , but that which shines from itself , matth. . . cor. . , , . and so in opposition to all outward scripture it self , as that which may define god , and declare of him and of his mind and will , and yet gives not the knowledge of either , the knowledge of whose things ( if we believe i. o. t. . c. . s. ; ) depends wholly and solely on his own pure divine revelation thereof by himself ; which revelation is so far exprest indeed in the scripture ; as that there it is written of , but is expresly made onely in the heart , where it pleases the son to reveal the father , and the father to reveal the son in men , ( gal. . , . eph. . col. . . ) i say then not with that supream authority , which is peculiar onely to the light , spirit , and word within , ( though ignorantly attributed , yea and appropriated too by i , o. to the outward writing ) yet with the same uncontroulable authority as the letter doth , they call for attendance even from their theopneustia , or divine inspiration , which to theion , or power of god that accompanieth them in their ministration is enough to convict i. o. and all the wolves of these times , that bark and howl against the light , and mis-judg● the many messages that come to them from the lord , as rejecters of such as god sends and justifiers of them who flew such of old as spake to them in the name of the lord. nevertheless as i. o. saith too truly , t. . c. . s. . it alwayes so fell out , that scarce any prophet , that spake in the name of god , had any approbation from the church , in whose dayes be spake : so it falls out now to the true prophets , among all the false churches of these latter dayes , from whom they find lesse approbation , and the same reprobation , as the former did from those evill generations wherein they spake , ier. . . matth. . . . . to . . . luke . , , , . iohn . . acts . . . . and this comes to passe by reason of the same innumerable prejudices that attend these their givings out of truth , either in speech or writing , as did the other , whose writings are not freed ( as i. o. fancies ) from the prejudices that at first attended them ; but attended with more then at the first writing thereof , thorough the infinite alterations , mis-transcriptions , mis-translations , mis-constructions , and mistakes of all sorts they have since been liable to , by the fallibility , and infinite variety of scribes , thorough whose hands they have passed : which said innumerable prejudices that now attend the modern prophets , as did the first , arise from the same root with those that attended them in their respective ages . ( viz. ) . partly the supposed interests of them that write and speak by way of prophecy , or immediate motion . . partly the personall inf●●mities , homely appearances , stemmering lips , uneloquent , rude , crude , indigested , unsound , non-sensicall sound of words ( as they seem to ( unintelligently understanding ) i. o. ep. ad lectorem ex. . s. . ) and formes of speech , which the babes vf christ seem to him to babble in , when they drop their doctrine as the dew , at the command of god , to the drunkards of ephraim , not all as once , but as it were gutta●im , precept upon precept , line upon line , here a little and there a little , ezek. . . amos . . isai. . , , , . . partly the mean out-side of most of these inwardly glorious sons and daughters of the king , psal. . . whose cloathing , ad extra , is not ( as their own within , and the worlds without , and its ministers often is ) of wrought gold , nor yet is it so much of plush jippoes & hose behang'd before , & at knees with rings or ribbons , and aprons of points , and costly ( if not golden ) buttons , and such like garments gay and gorgeous attire ; neither is it so much of that fine linnen their ( bishop-like ) boot-t●ps and double cuffs are cut out of , as of that , which is the righteousness of the saints : by reason of which these as internally golden , as externally earthen vessels , that bear gods name , and bring his heavenly treasure , are ill treated , turned out , and trampled on by both themselves and the people of those guilded high super-celestial , earthly minded , empty carks , that ever sound the loudest among their shallow waters , which make such a noise , together with them , that the still small voice , wherein god is , can come at no audience , king. . , . ecclus. . , , , , . these not bearing such a broad bulk as the other , nor bringing so much of that all sorts of externall excellencie and ornament as the other doe , which commends their persons ( though never the more to god , nor good men , yet ) to men that have not christs mind , but being many of them ( as christ was ) of low , outward birth and education , and , till he was sent to preach , a carpenter by occupation , mark . . amos's , that by the priests good will should never come so near the kings chappels , and princes courts , as of late some have been admitted to do , by such rulers as will never repent of the admittance of them into their presence , if they repent from what wayes soever the light within them manifests to be evill , as they are advised to do by such of the lights children as the lord at any time sends unto them , amos . , , , , , . aquila's and priscilla's phebe's , prophecyers by the spirit of both sexer , sons and daughters , servants and handmaids ; as to the lower sort of literature unlearned iames's , peter's , iohn's , few of the priesthoods function , as ieremie and ezekiel once were ( for as many priests as were obedient to the faith at first , i find few or none of them that came forth to be prophets ) and few lawyers , or learned ones of any sort , unless in some handicraft employments , one able paul well skill'd in the law , brought up at the feet of gamaliel , an indifferent honest doctor at the law , very dark and doubting , yet more moderate then his fellows , acts . , , . . . which paul was a kind of pursievant to the chief priests , till he became a preacher of what he ignorantly persecuted before , acts . , , &c. and then turned tentmaker for his living , acts . . likewise zenas another lawyer ; at least a disciple : and luke an honest physitian that wrote some of the acts of christ , and of some of the apostles ( of paul especially , whom he travelled much with ) one ap●●●os eloquent and mighty in the scriptures , acts . . col. . . tit. . . one mathew an officer in the custome-hense , and the rest , for the most part , of the inferiour sort , as they are at this day , few or no rulers of the pharisees ; some rich , wise , m●ghty , noble , not many , the rest mostly tradesm●n , some such as i. o. speaks of in a place fore-cited , ba●bers , porters , perhaps some alehouse-keepers ( why not ? the calling being as honest in it self as that of ga●us the churches host , or any other inne-keeper , though often much abused , as what trade is not when evill men manage it ? ) carpenters , shoemakers , * taylors , tentmakers , tributegarberers , but no tithmongers that i yet know of , shop-keepers ( as lydia an honest purple-seller that lived at philippi , and kept shop or market at thia●y●a ) shepherds , heardsmen , husbandmen , farmers , fishermen , out of all or most of which sorts christ makes some fishers of men in these dayes , while the popish parish priests , and other flaunting unclean spirited spirituall men , fishall their dayes and get nothing but unclean croking frogs like themselves , rev. . , . howbeit it is but few that receive the true faith , because such as broach it bring little or nothing with it of that outward pomp that people look for at the kingd●mes coming : and so sinihil attuleris ibis homere f●ras . . partly both priest● and peoples i●c●gitancy , ●scitancy & non observation of it , that the kingdome comes , not with so much outward observa●ion and sumptu●us shows as they seek after , and as the kingdomes of this world come with , but with all its glory ( which the saints see in christ and the spouse , when the world doth nor , psal. . . iohn . ) lyes more inward then men are ware of ( viz. ) in righteousness , peace with god , and joy in the holy spirit , a little thing , a grain of mustard-seed at first , though to be at last the greatest among the hearbs ; and so they d●spise the day of small things , though it tend to the greatest good and truest glory . they consider not ( no not when they read the very writing which is their own rule ( as the iews did not when moses was read , the vail being over his face and their hearts ) what the scripture itself saith , but in their l●ftiness and lordly minds , which fly up above the light , overlook the lowly mind of christ in the very scriptures they to themselves seem to be so much skilled in , they heed it not , when in it god declares , that out of the mouth of babes he will perfect his own p●ais● , psal. . . matth. . . that 't is not by such a fierce people as are for five and faggot ( as papists are ) and carnall weapons , prisons and other punishments ( as i. o. is ) to defend truth by ; nor by a people of a deeper speech then can well be understood by plain honest hearts ( as the scribes and disputers of this world ) but by stammering lips , and another tongue then that they think of , in which all are riddles and parables to them , he will speak to people , and especially to such as hearing will not hear , and seeing will not see , when things are plain , that hearing they may not hear , yea , that such may go and fall backward , and be broken , and snared , and taken , isai. . . to . isai. . , . cor. . . and that it is that foolishnesse of preaching ( as it is called by such as perish ) that god is pleased to save such by as will b●lieve ; that he will destroy the wisdome of the wise , and bring to nought the understanding of the prudent ; and turn wise men backward , and make their knowledge foolish , and frustrate the tokens of the lyars , and lead councellours away spoiled , and make the iudges fools , and remove away the speech of the trusty , and take away the understanding of the aged , and take away the heart of the chief of the earth , and cause them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way , and make them greap without light , and stagger like a drunken man , and befool the princes of zoan , and ca●●● the counsel of the wise councellors of pharoah to become bruitish , and dec●ive the princes of noph that have seduced and been the stay of the tribes thereof , and mingle a perverse spirit among them , and cause the sun to be covered with a cloud , and the bright lights of heaven to be dark over aegypt , at the putting of it out , and at the breaking of its yoke , and set darkness upon her land , and search out the hidden things of esau , and take away understanding from his mount , and discover deep things of darkness , and bring out to light the shadow of death , job . isa. . isa. . isa. . ezek. . . . . . obad. . &c. and that he will do all this to a people that have provoked him to anger with their vanities , by a foolish nation , and weary them out by such as are no people in their eyes , deut. . . and choose the foolish , and b●se , and weak things , that are no● , ●o confound and bring to nothing the things that are , cor. . , . . that the great mountain of babel shall become a plain before zerubbabel , i , e. such as are from babel , as the word is , and this not by might nor power of man , but by my spirit , saith the lord , zach. . . . that the excellency of the work may be of him , and not of man , and that he will do great things for his own land of canaan , whereat they shall rejoyce and be glad , joel . . yet by such instruments as foolish shepherds , such silly tools as shall make subtle sanballets , and tale-bearing tobyasses , and the rest of the scoffers of the same seed of ammon flout ●t them at first as feeble , and say , what will these feeble folk do ? will they revive the stones out of the rubbish , and build and fortifie in a day ? behold , if a fox go upon their wall , will he not break it down ? nehem. . . . . . &c. nehem. . . . . &c. and despise the day of god , as a day of small things , zach. . . and yet be amaz'd , terrified , cast down in themselves , and made to confess it to be of god at the last ; and that he will begin to save , not so much by the heads , as by the tail of the people , and g●●upwards ( not that prophet that teacheth lyes , which is the tail that would be the head , and is to be totally cut off , isa. . but ) the lower . and most despised fort of people , to whom he will shew his salvation , and by them to the antient and the honourable , and instruct apollos by aquila and priscila in the way of god more perfectly , and make the daughters of philip to prophesie , when scarce a prophetess to be found among the princesses of the earth , and phabe , and other sisters , ministers in his church , and labourers with paul , and fellow-helpers to the gospel , rom. . . phil. . . when he leaves corvos prophetas & prophetissas picas , many unsavoury gaping preachers , and proud women pratlers of christ and faith , &c. ever teaching and learning , but never coming to the knowledge of the truth ; and that he will savē the tents of juda first , the plain plow-men and keepers in their own tents , and country cottages , that the glory of the cieled houses of david , and the inhabitants of jerusalem , kings , governours , great ones , fine rich citizens , mighty merchants , mincing ladies , renowned university schollars , scribes , pastors , and such like , may no more magnifie themselves against iuda , but stoop to take truth from stammering lips , or be lest ignorant thereof forever ; and this is one of gods works and strange acts , which he is working in these dayes , whereat the wise despisers wonder , yet perish , because in no wise believing it , though it be declared unto them , zach. . . hab. . . act. . . isa. . . . . the mighty multitude of false prophets , of all shapes , seducing and gain saying the truth , which are at least four hundred and fifty of one sort , and four hundred of another , to one of the lords elijabs , kings . ver . . for as thou sayest i. o. t. . c. . s. . in the latter dayes of that iewish church , that poople were most emīnently perplexed with false prophets , both as to their number and subtilty ; so , and much more is it now in these latter dayes of the ( out-side ) christian churches , that hold the outer court , yet tread down the holy city , and of the old world also , wherein the old serpent called the devil and satan , seeing himself cast out of heaven , where he held war as long as he could with michael and his angels , and is now to have no more place there , is come down to the inhabiters of the earth , unto which he is cast in great wrath , knowing that he hath but a short time , and so bestirs himself more then ever before , and like a mad . bull that hath received a fatal blow in the forehead , runs bellowing about , and tears and rends what he is able , and foams against the man-child , the holy seed of god , and sheep of christ , at his going forth , and being by permission more strongly then ever re-entred into the herd●of swine , drives them down headlong so violently , that there is no saving of them , to their own everlasting perdition ; to which purpose he musters up all manner of his ministers , that from him ( as to their ministerial capacities , both live , and move , and have their being ) gog and magags ministry , and all the magicians behind , all these together running on with open mouth to devoure the israel of god and i●compass the camp of the saints , and the beloved city , till fire come down from god out of heaven and devoure them , isa. . yea , of a truth it it so now , as was foretold esdras . chap. thoroughout , that it should be in the latter dayes , when the most high begins to visit and deliver his saints , and come in them , to the astonishment of many , and as a thief and a snare upon all that dwell upon the earth ( viz. ) that though all the false prophets , and their several peoples , should be aurium tenus , up to the ears in strife , one sort of seers undertaking to fight against another one city , one realm , one sort of their misguided people against another , one troop of these mad riders , and their blind horses , zach. . against another , in their uncertain fallible minds , opinions , conjectures , thoughts , andabatarum more , * justling together in the dark , at the revelation of the son of god , and his espoused sion , and at the hearing of his uncouth voice , they every one in their own land leave the battel they have one against another , and as of old , the ammonites , m●●ites , and they of mount seir , waging war against that typical people of god , the outward fleshly israel ; so these that hate and ban one another , even to the very death , make one head together against that spiritual israel , that is of a clean heart ; and all the false prophets , both an●i●● and upstart , and all the subtil f●xes ( natura , non nomine ) joyn both little and great , old and young together , to spoil the vine that hath clusters of tender grapes , and if it were possible to root it out , and ( under a pretence of preserving the church , the true seed of iacob and israel ) to preserve it from taking root , and blossoming , and budding , and filling the face of the earth with fruit , as it must do at the last , isa. . . and like sampsons foxes , tail to tail , they draw divers wayes ; lo●here , sayes one , lothere , sayes another ; some sounding it out for their fathers traditions ; some summoning to the scriptures , and the g●wdy glosses they put upon it ( who yet , if they could once come to see it , live by tradition , and teach g●ds fear afters mans precepts , as well as the rest ) all to their own fanci●s , dreams , opinions , and imaginations of one kind or other , and all these fire-brands fencing to one end , and as friendly ( as herod and pilate , at odds against each other , yet at one against christ ) attempting to dis-inthrone the light of christ in the con●cience , from its due authority , and from sitting on the throne in its proper place . * some resisting the truth by flat opposition ; so all the many sorts of those guilded cups the parish priests do , that yet hold forth all or any r●mish relicks or measure of that old whores trash ; which wooden tops are always turning round with the times , as that lash ( viz. the losse of living if they so do not ) is made use of and exercised toward them , whose movings to and again , back and forth , from henries religion to edwards , from his to maries , from hers to elizabeths , and so onward , and round ( as occasion is ) if the word of command be ( as ye were ) is all from the force of some externall engine , or other , mostly , that of money ( for qui pecunianon movetur hunc dignum specta●u arbitramur ) not from any inward principle or power of the endless life ; no par , no preach , is their common custom , so that the powerless formes they foam at each other about , would soon fall all to the earth , whence they are , and not from truth , were it not for that primum-movens that principale propugnaculum of tith ; as a dead man that can stand not a jot longer , then propt up by something or other , ad extra , because deest aliquid infus , there wants the main master wheel within . others like those inchanters that withstood moses , resist the truth too , men of corrupt minds , reprobate yet as concerning the faith , leading● captive silly women after them , from the faith of gods elect , by imitating the very truth it self , as farre as they are able to come neer it , in their vain fleshly minds , having stole into a form of the same doctrine , words , and works , without the life , which they hate and oppose in them that are in the life , preaching the same truth and light themselves in their airy spirits , since the conviction thereof fell upon them , for which they had very formally cast forth of their own separated churches the children of the light , who withdrew from them , and so formally were none of them before , that their senseless confuse or ejection : * like the●fore ●aid sorcerers , to bewitch their people into an abode among them in egypt ; where they yet are in bondage altogether , and into a non-believing of the true messengers of god to be in anything beyond themelves , and to make them seem to be no more in the power of god then they , by striving to do all , and as farre as they are able to follow on in a form , till at last they be forc'd to confess , a finger of god doing all that by their weak arme of flesh , mans fleshly will and wisdome , which by the saints is performed , both in and from no other arme , then the light , power , wisdome , and life of god , dwelling in them : of this sort are all the prophets , that are in a fairer form of godliness then those behind them , in dark●r and grosser for●m● , yet with them denying , and not witnessing the power thereof in their hearts and conversations , to the purging of them from pride and the other p●llutions and corruptions that are in world through lust ; which magicians , when they see the servants of the lord do any thing , that is taking among their people , and which they are ashamed to di●own , then they will do so , and ( as the wise men of egypt set themselves to imitate moses ) set themselves to do the like , and ●in a shew bring forth an image of the same : by all which said severall sorts of subtill sorcerers , who with the most cunning craftiness they have , lye in wait to deceive , the multitudes of people are deceived , and so seduced from the narrow way of truth , that among them very few ever find it , and are so eminently perplexed ( as to their discerning aright between gods wor● indeed , and that which is only pretended so to be , ( viz. ) the nak●d letter , that only declares what is his word , and their own fallible , and sometimes senseless senses , and sermons , upon that letter , of all which they ay , in their common preambles to their people , hearken with fear and trembling to the word of god , when oft no more then every mans own word , ier. . . is spoken ) that though god hath given men a light and spirit within , which is me●sura ●sui & ● obl●qu● , that can most certainly determine of all spirits , and an ●ar ( but that its slopt in most ) which can as truly try words , as the mouth ●asteth meats , iob . . ieh . . , . and also se●meria , infall bee tokens to enable them so to do , yet they can make no discrimination between right and wrong , faith and falshood , uprightness and errour , honesty and hypocrysie , holiness and heresie , the simplicity that ●s in christ , and that schisme from it , into which they are already inchanted , cor. . . the light and truth , and that deceit and darkness , in which both prophets and people dwell , through the busie battels , and confused noises , these warriours make with their loud cryings out each against other , and all with one mouth against the truth it self , and the tellers of it , as deceivers , and all with one consent mis-representing them as such unto the powers , mis-advis●●g and mis-admon●shing their respective peoples to this or the like tune , beware and take heed of deceit , and of these deceivers the qua. not heeding all this while , or at least not willing their people should heed how deeply they are all in the deceit already : so like the impudent harlot , that hopes to outcry and bear down the modest matron with a clamour of words , and by calling out wh●re first , these foolish loud lewd women , fearing their own filthy fornications should else be soon discovered , cry out first on that sect of saints , which was ever and every where so spoken against , acts . . . . heresie , schisme , errour , darkness , disturbance , madness , enthusiasme , fanaticisme , faction , and such like ; and though they and their flocks of goats , and heards of swine , live in the lust , in pride , covetousness , malice , luxury , and all wickedness , and have nothing of their own save unrighteousness to be rob'd of , and nothing to be led captive , but that which hath captivated the just , nor to be spoild of , but that which spoils them souls and bodies , and nought to be deceived of , but deceit and darkness it self , yet they are ever noysing it out , deceit , deceit ; by means of which unanimous out-cryes , and simultaneous sounds of these heterogeneous , multaneous , multanimous false prophets , drowning the still voice of w●sdome , which yet cryes aloud too , and uttereth her voice to these simple scorners in their streets , pro. . it is not heard nor heeded ; though the wisdome of god send them now ( as of old he did to the like generation of evil doers ) matth. . . luke . . . prophets , and apostles , and wise m●n , and scribes , yet some of them they even kill , and some of them they imprison and persecute out of their synagogues , and some they stone , dirt , and bemire , not only with their belying lips and pens , but also their merciless hands ( the dark places of the earth , cathedrals , monasteries , abbeys , academies , colledges , being ever full of the habitations of cruelty , ps. ) and some they sorely whip and scourge , supposing they do god service in all this , iohn . . that the righteous blood of all the prophets , which was shed from the foundation of the world , may come upon them , which verily is to be required both of this , and in this present evil generation . for the lord is now in earnest , bending iudah for himself , and filling the bow with ephraim , and raising up the ( academically-unlearned ) sons of sion , against those sons of greek , and making them as the sword of a mighty man in his own hand , to do vengeance on those heathenish nursing mothers , and to punish not only all others , but more especially their pope-like priests and people , to bind their kings in chains , and their nobles with fetters of iron , to execute on them the iudgement written in the scripture itself they scribble about , far more then they are skill'd in it , to speak to those drunkards with the wine of their own wisdome , with stammering lips , and another tongue then any they can talk in , or understand , by precept upon precept , line upon line , here a little , and there a little , that they may go backward , and stumble , and fall , and be broken , and snared , and taken , and to reject those greeks , that seek so much after mans wisdome , in the promulgation of the things of god , to whom the cross of christ is foolishness , and to reject those scribes and disputers of this world , and by that preaching , which to them is foolishness itself , to make their wisdome foolish , and to chuse out foolish , weak , base things , and persons , even laicks , mechanicks , rusticks , russet-rabbies ( as they term them ) even babes , bablers , and such as are not in their eyes , to confound and bring to naught these mighty wise and prudent ones that are , and to draw the night and darkness over those dreaming diviners , that they shall no more divine what things and strange acts are transacting in this time , and to cause the sun to set upon their learned seers , that scoffingly call to the qua. out of their mount seir , watchman , what of the night ? so that the vision of all , both to them and their unlearned people , that live upon their lips , shall be as a book sea●ed , and to search out the hidden things of those lord esau's , that hunt abroad for their learning , and to supplant them by his plain honest-hearted iacobs , that dwell and learn truth at home in their own tents , and to cover aegypt with a cloud , and to mingle a perverse spirit among her ministers , and to manifest the folly of these iannes and iambres , that resist the truth , men of corrupt minds , reprobate concerning the faith , as he did theirs that withstood moses of old ; and to leave the princes of zoan to become fools , and the counsel of these wise councellors of pharoah to become bruitish ; so that it shall be said of them , as of old , i●a . . where are they ? where are the wise men ? let them tell now , let them know what the lord of hosts hath purposed upon aegypt ( yea surely , these princes of zoan , are already become fools , the princes of n●p● are deceived : they have also seduced aegypt , even they , that tribe , that is the stay of the tribes thereof , and to divide in iacob that trip●l● tribe of levi , whose anger and wrath is cursed , for it hath been cruel , and as they have scattered the israel of god , so to scatter them in his israel , and to set these ●o●sheards of the earth to drive with each other about their own foundation , and to r●ze their own babel to the ground , and to break themselves to pieces one against another , like a potters vessel● , so that in the bursting thereof , there shall not be left at last so much as a sheard fit to use to take fire from the hearth , or water withall from the pi● , and to render all the works and voluminous tomes of these turners of his things upside down , of no better esteem among men , then the potters cla● , and to take all these subtil foxes in their own craftiness , both the great and the little one● , that spoil his vine which bath tender grapes , and hurt the cluster , or gatherings of the saints together , in which is the new wine , and the blessing , and to unho●se this tripple-crown'd harlot , that hath so long rode and at upon both powers and their people , & her nursing mothers of l●arning true religion and piety ( in pretence ) but ( in truth ) of all ignorance , superstition , and abomination , and to call to account the whole ct clergy , upon which a consumption is determined throughout the earth , and to summon both the pope , and his cardinals , mount seigniors , iesuites , monks , f●yers ; and also all arch-bishops , bishops , arch-deacons , deans , and their officials ; also all parsons , vicars , curates , and all spiritual persons whatsoever ; also all learned linguists , scribes , text-men , translators , commentators , t●eaters , tythe-teachers , talkers of truth for their own turns , and trad●r● out of the scriptures , profit-seeking prophets and pastors , that for pay have made a prey of his people , and to plead with them for his flock , and to come down to fight for mount sion , and for the hill thereof , and to roar through the mouths of his prophets , against these many sorts of shepherds , that are now so loud , and full of noyses and clamours , to keep their flocks from fleeing from them , crying out , heresie , beresie , schism , quake●ism , fanaticism , &c. and to scatter their people from them , and to gather his own sheep into his fold , whom they have driven to and fro from mountain to hill , in the dark and gloomy day , and to take their prey from the midst of them , and like a lion roaring on his prey , when a multitude of shepherds is call'd forth against him , he will not be afraid of their ●ice , nor abase himself for the noyse of them : in a word , to stretch out his hand so strongly against them all , that those powers and people that helpe them shall fall ; and those priests , universities , doctors , schollars , and other students there , that are holpen by the earthly powers , shall fall , and they all shall fail together , and not be able to uphold one another , but be cast , as iezebell and her lovers , into a bed of torments together , and into great tribulation , except they repent of their deeds : and as the espousall of the university , priestly and clericall interest with that of the common-wealths , hath ever yet obstructed the proceedings of all parliaments and powers in this land of resolved on reformation , and prohibited their prospering in any of their undertakings , to perfect the propounded priviledges of the people : so in way of warning to you , whether you will yet hear or forbear ; whether i live to see it , or die before it , i here assure you from the lord , o ye the present powers in this english nation , the clea●ring of that mi●e and clay of the clergies councels to your iron , will never hold , but the stone cutout of the mountain without hands will smite your image , that stands on such a mixt , brittle bottom in the feet and toes of it , that it shall fall and become , before the word and spirit of the lord , in the mouths and hearts of his people , as the chaffe of the summer-floor , yea , as stubble before the wind , and the angel of the lord pursuing it . and albeit the business of rooting out all romish relicks yet remaining , remaines yet reeling to and fro , to and fro , in this nation , so that no man knows which way the scales will turn , and the case be cast , by looking meerly to mens managing of matters without , in such a wavering , unstable manner do things stand , while they are under the hands of such double minded men , as are unstable in all their wayes , nothing but wavering like the waves of the sea , driven to and fro , and tossed ; yet such as look inward , whose eyes and hearts are toward the lord , rejoycing in his highness , whose excellency is in the clouds , and hoping in his mercie , they are come within the ken and clear sight of rrromes utter ruine , in all three of her appearances in this nation , which are about the tenth part of the old roman empire , and of the p●pedome also in its late largest latitude , in which nations , at the sound of the sixt trumpet , the tenth part of the clergy or great city bbbabylon , the mystical mother of harlots and abominations , falls fi●st , rev. . . as an earnest of the fu●l , finall , and universall fall thereof , which comes after it , rev. . . in the plague of the seventh viall . and notwithstanding all that loathness to part with her , and pittifull pining after her , and pleading for sparing her , and often uprising to uphold her in her prelaticall , and presbyterian pontificalibus paroch●a'l preferments , and excrementirious university excellencies , and collegian exercises and concerrments , that is among the merchants that trade with her , and are made rich by the abundance of her delicacies : yet the feet of all these petty popelings must also slide in due time , and the things that come upon them and their pontificals ( though seeming to them sometimes to stand still , or give back again ) make hast : and as sure as the old m●nasticall , massy ministry and their maintenance and most foggy formes of ministration , holy water , latine letanies , ave maria's , misereremei's , pater nosters , te deums , trigintals , dirges , de profundis , m●rtuaries , peter-pence , and such like , were sent packing first , and after them the protestant imitations , and english images , of most of those popish latine ch●●ts ( viz. ) d●ans and chapters lands , easter-reckonings , offerings , mid-summer dues , christenings with crosses , marrying with the ring , churchings of child-bed women , bishoppings of children , and the fees belonging thereunto , goings on procession yearly to view the bounds of their parishes , and reading the epistles and gospels at such and such hedges , bushes , trees , bowings at the name of iesus , cringings before the altar , facings towards the east , high-altar-service , rayls , costly windows , crucifixes , holy vestments , lawn sleeves , canonicall coats , costly copes , sandals , su●plices , anthems , holy sing-songs , organ , and sundry other popish pipes and pictures , mattens , and even-songs , liturgies , consecrations of chappels , of bishops , priests , and deacons , ministers , cathedrals , and a number more of such like choristicall church geer , and the stipends thereto pertaining , which protestant services , saving the different language therein administred , and some certain expurgations of some grosser superstitions , in which the p●pish did exceed them , are now , as they once were under the pope of cante●buries patronage , growing back a pace into a lively , or rather deadly conformity to that of the romish synag●gue they were lately ●ent from , as chips of that old block , and certain slips transplanted and set in the same soyl , where thè old body of that oak , they were cut off from , once grew and flourished . so assuredly all that long train of p●pish trash , and mans tradition , used , whether in , or in order to the worship of god , in either universities , schools , colledges , or country churches , and the respective romish rewards belonging to the men , whether already made , or to be made ministers of this traditional , nationall ministration that yet remains ( viz. ) deaneries , prebendaries , presidemships , masterships , fellowships , educations in universities and colleges , together with the degrees there taken , of doctorship , batchellou●ship ( so farre as to the thing called divinity , and as in order to the ministry of christs gospel , and not only the great preferments and profits , but also the many fidling formalities and silly supersluities of scarlet gowns , with velvet-plush , of sattanically faced sleeves , the long rich sa●snet scarfes before , the silken snap-sacks behind , and their many odd mysticall mumblings , kissings , kneelings , bowings , bare-headed trottings to and fro , and gaddings hither and thither , about begging and granting graces , and much more for did service of this sort , that was wont ( if not lately left off and ceased from ) to be stood upon in our nursing mothers of naughtiness and heathernish canity . likewise all those countrey parish practises ( viz. ) christening infants , not in fonts as before , with gossips , but in basons , yet not without sundry of the old festivall customes , and plum-cake ceremonies , ( to say nothing of the superstitious observations of the old popishly consecrated sacred seasons , of christs-masse , candle-masse , micha●●masse , lam-masse , &c. celebrated and sanctified with more unholiness then all the year beside , which steal in apace again among many priests and people ) their singings of davids psalmes with doeg's spirit , by a line at a time , as the priest or clark reads afore them , in the ●ime and meeter that queen elizabeths musitia●s , io● hopkins and tho. sternhold , have moulded them into , which songs of the temples , wherein many people tell to god more lies of themselves then truth , ( while they say they are not pust in mind , nor scornfull , and they water their couch with their teares , when as they are as proud as they can look , and rejoyce to do evill , and scarce shed a tear in their lives for their sins ) must be turned into howlings , and the eatings and drinkings of gluttons and drunka●ls , and the communion of swine at their lords supper , and much more such miserable old mother-like manner of devotions and meetings together in the ancient mass-bouses , at the t●●ling of the great bell , or the tinkling of the saints bell ( as 't was commonly called ) more then at the found or true call of christs spirit in the conscience , who is now calling out of all such dead devoutry●● , together with the large popish pay of fat parsonages , vicaradge ; , blebe-lands , tyhes , augmentations , &c. much of which for an hour or two's work in a week , is by persecution plucked from many poor folks families , that in conscience cannot contribute to the upholding and maintaining of such a mess of merchandise , and den of thieves . i say all this p●pish and priestly bag and baggage , must once march after that which is gone before , and be sent packing into the pitfrom whence it came , before ever this nation come to know true peace ; yea , wrath is gone out against it from the lord ; and those powers that piece , and patch , and dawb , and mend , and prop , and repair , and build up again , and plant , and maintain , and uphold , and help , and heal the fragments of that old fabrick , and form of godliness , where the power is denied , which god hath a purpose to lay waste , and pluck up , and throw down , and bring to nought , and confound , though they say in the pride and sto●●ness of their hearts , the bricks are fallen down , but wee 'l build with he●●en stone , wee 'll reform , and square the materials , but keep up the same parish popish form : the sickamores are cut down , but wee 'll change them into cedars , shall find , that as they seek to plant , the lord will pluck up , and what they build , the lord will throw down , and mingle their enemies together in battel against them , some before , and some behind to devoure , till they wholly and throughly turn to him that smireth them , and that he himself will cut off branch and rush , head and tail , even the antient and the honou●ab●● , which is the head , and the prophet that reacheth lyes , which is the tail , 〈◊〉 d●y ; for where the leaders of a people d● long cause them ●o erre , both themselves , and those that are led of them are destroyed , i●a . . to . be wife now therefore , o ye kings , b●inst u●● dy● ru●ers of b●s● nations , for they that by often reproofs are forced to ●eild to let gods israel go fully free to his own service , and then like p●a●●ah , are as f●●●ard●●d into refusals of it , when they are going , or into a pe●secution of them when they are gone , will undoubtedly know to their own utter over-wh●lming and destruction , that deliverance will arise some way or other to his people , that their chariot wheels shall be taken off , that their drivings on after them in the dark , will be but heavily and too sl●wly to ●ve●tak● or bring them back again ; and that the lord himself , who hath placed between them the pillar of fire , to be a light to the one , and a cloud and darkness to the other , doth at this day ( as of old ) fight for israel against the egyptians , &c. sides with his redeemed and ransomed ones , against all whose hearts are turned against them , to grutch at the liberty once granted them to go , so as to seek to intangle , or to reduce them again into bondage : for men are now ( as god himself is ) in earnest , and not in jest● , about the matters of god and truth ; and the power of the lord is with them that stand up , and are valiant for the truth , and not for the empty shews of it only in this and t'other outward form ; and god himself is risen , and rising in the saints , to be avenged on the flattering foes of his people , and really resolved to bear no longer , but to break the head , and wound the hairy scalp of every such a one as goeth on still in his trespasses , and every plant shall assuredly be plucked up , which the heavenly father himself hath nor planted . let us hear then the conclusion of this whole matter , into which , if i have deviated any thing largely , yet that business can plead its own excuse , sith it s not meer method so much as matter of profit that i mind , who know , that though the prohhesie of smoother and sweeter things is more desirable to most , yet omne tulit punctum qui miseuit utile amdro . he hits the nail on the head more , that ministers bitter and rough reproof , where need is , then he qui miscet inutile dulci , who divines smooth , ngared bits , and sweet deceits ( as our divines do ) to mens undoing ; and that he who faithfully holds forth the trouble some truth , shall find more favour ( as with god for ever ) so with men at last , then he who feeds them with lyes , and continually flattereth them with his lips : and besides , by your difficulty to believe that god hath any true prophets , or infallibly inspired messengers of his in these dayes , i have been drawn not aside , but directly to the proof of it for your sakes i.o.t.d. and such as are deluded by you ; to whom my love is so great , that as ye have by your denying any such theopneustian , divine inspiration , revelation , motion , immediate mission as of old , compell'd me to go a mile with you out ( if it be out ) of the way ; so i have gone along with you , or at least over against you , no less then twain : and now i hasten to make an end with you altogether . of what hath been spoken , then this is the sum , there are prophets , and men mov'd , led and guided by gods infa'lible spirit , that by it are fitted ( though ye deny it ) to open scripture ; nor was it ever since it was a scripture more open'd by that infa'lible spirit , then now it is , and is soon to be ; yet for all this , men that have no more then the outward moses , and the prophets , do not believe , nor repent , because they listen not to the light within , that calls for doing to all as they would be done by , which is the law and the prophets , saith christ , matth. . for want of attending to which , they not only repent not at the call of their own dead prophets dead preachings , who are yet living in their trespasses and sins , but for the most part also , not at the preachings of such as minister from the life ( and not the dead letter only ) who are quickned and made alive again from their trespasses and sins , and so not heeding the light , here 's no repentance yet , though they be warn'd by such as are risen with christ , and sent unto them from the dead . chap. ii. now then to make a more full and final enquiry into the cause of that foresaid grand and imp●nit●ncy , is it for want of that saving light of god that is ( if heeded ) sufficient to guide all men , even to that repentance which is to salvation , that is never to be repented of ? nay verily , not so neither , for all men have from god and ch●ist a light within them , ● measure of that true light ( saving i.os. and t ds. i. t●mbs , r. bax. dark conceits to the contrary ) which is sufficient to bring them that follow it to salvation , but only that it s not attended to : and this , together with that about the letter above spoken to , which ye lay as your chief foundation , being the chief matters at first intended by me to be controverted with i.o. but that well nigh at my beginning in carnest to enter the lists with him , t. ds. two young cub● : , one some while after another , coming out upon me , occasioned me to make many an extravagant vagary after them , into some other doctrinal , accountative , and narrative businesses , for the truths sake more then my own , that people might no longer ( unless they will ) be led aside from it by his lyes , and gu●●'d with his guilded glosses and counterfeit colours , wherewith ●he ●awbs , and smooths , and sooths them up in sin and sinister su●mizes against the truth , and the tellers of it in the points abovesaid , and covers himself , and his false doctrines of iustification , of saints in sin , personal election of all but a very few , non-pu●gation from sin in this life , and sundry others , either more directly and largely ( as that of iustification ) or more briefly , occasionally , or but interlinearily resured before , in which i.o. is as co-incident with him , as he with i.o. in the rest . i shall now betake my self to some more single ( though short ) animadversion thereof , as it lies in difference between the qua. who hold it out for truth , and i.o. t.d. i.t.r.b. and the owners of their books extant , in which they oppose the qua. in print very much , if not more then in any other whatsoever ; and so i shall have done with them both at this time . and first , i shall begin with t.d. his two do-littles , and take account of his mighty weak mannagement of his many meanings , as to that matter of the light against the qu. of which in many things , he means much what as i.o. does , and is confused and contradictory to himself not a little about it ; yet i must needs say , not by ten-fold so much as i.o. is in his mad mang●nization of his mind in this matter ; howbeit , t.d. as to his dispute , goes clear beside the question , as it was stated about the light , as he did about the letter , and iustification , and strikes much more upon the anvil , then on the iron , and yet he gives us the quest. too , at the very beginning to dispute it , as he did those two about iustification , and the scripture ; as may appear by what follows . the question between the qua. and t.d. was as he relates , p. . of his . pamph. viz. whether every man that cometh into the world be enlightned by christ ? which when r , h. affirmed , t.d. ( as himself relates ) replyed thus , viz. but what light is it you intend ? we grant that every man hath some light , by which he discernes ( though dimly ) many sins and duties , and severall divine attributes ; but the mystery of godliness , as it is summ'd up , . tim. . ult . god manifested in the flesh , justified in the spirit , &c. we deny that all men have the knowledge of . to which question of t.d. what light is it you intend ? when r.h. honestly and truly replyed thus , viz. the light , i.e. the light of christ ( about which only the question was ) is but one . t.d. replies thus , viz. the lights mentioned , viz. ●aturall and supernaturall light are two ; and though all have the one , yet few have the other . rep. . here let all reasonable men judge , whether thou t. d. dost not clearly yeild us our question , which was not at all about the measure of the light , whether all have the same measure of it or not ? for we affirm not that , but whether all have some measure of that same light that shines from christ , the light of the world , yea or nay ? not whether all have so much , as whereby they actually see all the things of god , and the gospel , which are to be seen , or arè seen by some , but whether every man hath some or no ? i.e. so much as whereby to discern some of the things of the spirit of god and the gospel , severall divine attributes , and many duties , i.e. so many , or such as god requires of him in particular , who requires of every one according to the ability and degree of light he giveth , and accepteth every one according to what he hath from him , and not according to what he hath not ; which measure walking answerably to , they stand excused , uncondemned , alias , justified in the sight of god , but rebelling against stand accused or condemned : and this t.d. thon consentest to , and affirmest with us , so clearly , that all thy after dispute upon it does not fetch that again which thou grantest to us , it being about another question of thy own starting , which we deny not , ( viz. ) whether all have the actuall knowledge of the mystery of the gospel in the light yea or no ? for mark , we grant ( sayest thou ) that every man hath some light , i.e. is in some sort enlightened by christ ( for thy grant is to the question above , whether by christ or not , or else thy answer is beside the purpose ) and besides p. . thou denyest not , but the gentiles afore christ were enlightned by christ ( as god ) ( though yet to the contradiction of thy self again , as if the being enlightned to know , and a man knowing were all one , thou there sayest they were afarre off from the knowledge of that ) by whose light be discernes ( though dimly ) ( and how dimly or clearly is nothing to the purpose ) many sins , and duties , and several divine attributes . in which words thou sayest as much to our purpose as we would desire thee . it s ill stumbling at the threshold t. d. at the very entrance of thy work , and yet no lesse thou didst again in limine at the very beginning of our disputation with thee , , about the scriptures being the word of god , as is to be read in thy own relation of the second dayes work , p. , . of . pamph. where thou sayest the question i promised to discourse upon was , whether the scriptures were the word of god ( and that indeed was the question ) to which , as soon as in answer to thy desires of knowing what i held about it , i denyed that the graphe , the gramma , the scriptures ie●te , writing , or outward text is the word of god , thou repliedst by way of compliance with me , saying , you cannot believe us so simple ( surely ) as to affirm the scriptures in that sense to be the word of god : and i say , if not in that sense , then in no sense are they so truly and properly , that i know of , but i.o. his foresaid non-se●s● , who , howbeit he is forced to confess ex. . s. . . to the yielding the cause to the qua. that the matter contained in it only is said to be so , but that the scripture formally considered , or the littera scripta , or letter written , is not within , and is not intended in those innumerable places of scripture , where the word of god is said to be preached , published , multiplied , received , which , as is shewed more at large above , is as non-sensicall , as for a man to say , that the lantern ( though formaliter it be not so , but only the light that is contained in it , is so ) doth yet challenge to it self that name of the light , as its proper name , yet engages himself against the qua. in vindication of the word of god to be the proper name of the scriptures ; so truly , that those are injurious to it , and oppro●●ious reproachers of it , who will not allow it to be properly called by that glorious title . so thou engaging thy self in vindication of the scriptures to be the word of god. giving us the question to have been debated , flinkest away into the proof of another matter , saying , that ye upon the matter contained in the writing ( which , say we , is another business , the holy truth that is there told , and the light and word of god , law and gospel there witnessed to , being a thing to distinct from the scripture of it , that as it is now where the letter is not , and was two thousand years before the letter was , so it will be for ever , for its an euerlasting gospell , when the letter of it shall be no more ) whether that be your rule of faith and life ? a matter in no wise denyed by the qua. if not only by the scripture ye mean ( as properly ye cannot do ) the holy doctrine , truth , word , light , law , gospell of christ therein declared , to be in some measure at least in the heart of every man , preached in every creature , that they may hear and do it ; but also by thy term , our rule of faith and life , that which de jure ought to be your rule ; otherwise if ye say even of that de facto , that it is your rule , or in esse actuall that which ye do actually and indeed walk by ; i deny even that also , for howbeit ye should own that also , ( and not the letter and text only , as i.o. doth ) yet so farre are ye from so doing , that if thou do not , yet at least i.o. both doctrinally and practically denies , and damnes it down , as a meer nescio quid of the qua. coyning . moreover much what in the same manner dost thou in the point of iustification , give us no lesse then the question , as to the termes wherein it was stated , and then startest a new question in thy sophisticall s●● it of subtil●y , which is so familiar with thee , that it 's seen by any that are but ●● unculi only in the thing called dispute , by staring and translating the old one under new termes . for witness thy own disagreeing , counterfeited account thereof , p. . . pamph. the new termes , wherein ( that thou mighest the more easily wrong me by thy wrong representation of me to the world , as a rank papist , and render me suspitious , and the more securely write me out , as thou do●t in the second page of the lying narrative of thy second pamp. under that traducing title , of one suspected to be a iesuite ) thou with much ado ( as thy phrase there is ) drewest and wrestedst the quest. into , and ●ayest ( on thy own head ) they were slated in were , whether our good wor●s are the meritorious cause of our iustification ? which i hold in the affirmative no further , then as by our good works are meant the good works of god , and christs own working in us by his spirit , which ( though most truly his ) are by the spirit it self vouchsafed that name of ours , witness isa. . . not as by ours , those only of our own working in our will , wisdome , and strength , are expressed and intended , for all such are our righteousnesses , which i ( who own none of christs working in us to be so , as thou t.d. blasphemously dest , if p. . and . of thy i. pamp. be rightly , soan'd ) do own to be but durg , l●ss , and filthy rags , according to isa. . . but the true terms of the quest in which it was stated and debated ( if we may , as sure enough we may , believe the joynt testimony of both thy self , and those gentlemen and ministers in the margent , as in thy epistle thou stilest them , of whom there thou sayest also , they are witnesses of the terms of the questions agreed to by the qu. before the testimony of thy single ; double , lying , self-contradicting self ) were otherwise ; witness thy own relation thereof in thy lying narrative , which hath not any thing at all of that little truth that 's in it , more true then this , wherein p. . pamp. setting all these witnesses ( viz. ) hen. oxenden , io. boys , esqs ; n. barry , t. selyard , c. nichols , ministers , o're against it in the margin , to testifie the truth thereof , together with thee , thou relatest thus ; the terms of the third quest. were , whether good works be the meritorious cause of our iustification , which was expresly affirmed by them , i.e. by the qu. * in which terms , staring the question without that term our , which is of thy own fois●ing in the other place , where , even thereby , on thy own head , thou alterest the stare thereof , and makest it clearly another question : i affirm it to this very day , and ever shall to the faces of any of you ( as occasion is ) yet owning no works to be truly good , but what are done by the believers in christ , and his light , and done by christ , and his power and spirit , whether in their persons , or his own , who never did evil work in his , or ( without blasphemy ) in paul , that can be call'd ( as thou call'st that he wrought in paul , and works in us ) pauls own , and ours , which is but dung , less , and filthy rags ; or deserve condemnation , or any less then justification , both of himself and his saints in the sight of god , by any good work that ever he wrought , either in himself , or them . and so my argument , a contrariis , ye so ball and squabble with me about , was both intended , and urged in effect , ( viz. ) if evil works deserve condemnation , then good works no condemnation , alias , iustification ; but this is true ; therefore the latter . which question so stated , thou t.d. not only affirmest with me : for thou neither dost , nor da●est deny , but that we are justified by the good works of christ , or that any of his worksare not good , or are a violation , and not a fulfilling of the law , only thou foolishly flamst it off with his good works done , ad extra , and not ad intra , without only , and not within us , thy folly in which i have largely enough manifested before , but also urgest the same thy self , p. . . pamp. thus ; viz. evil works , which are the violation of the law , d ▪ serve condemnation ; ergo , good works , that are the fulfilling of the law , deserve salvation , and we know no good works such ( sayest thou ) but christs ; and so say we too . thus thou givest us that question also . and this g.w. tells thee of , and turns upon thee in his reply to thy first so plainly , that thou dost but add to thy shame in thy reply to him again , p. . of thy . pamp. which begins with a flat lye , which i 'le note here , now i have it in hand : i did not ( sayest thou ) directly affirm that good works , which are the fulfilling the law , deserve salvation , but that from the rule of contraries ( which s.f. urged ) we might so argue . now if thou confess , that by that rule we may so argue , then the thing is so secundum te , or else thou canst not truly say we may so argue , and that is as directly to affirm it as one need be desired to do : so thou hast not much mended thy matter , nor by thy lye lick't thy self sound of what g.w. laid on thee ; but indeed thy words , as thy self repeatest them in thy first pam. p. . are directly positive , and not suppositive ; for after many other positions , thou layest down that thus , viz. and again , thus the rule will allow to argue , which if it be not so , then the rule will not allow us so to argue : as to what follows in that rep●y , as its excentrick , as to my purpose here to meddle with it , so it ( as well as well nigh all thy doctrinal doings in thy second trifle ) is no more then what is by praeoccupation answer'd above in my occasional considerations of thy first , term'd the qua. folly , to which thou referrest thy reader so much , that thou mightst well nigh as well have said no more to the world in reply to g.w. then thus ; viz. for an answer to g.w. i refer the reader to my qua. folly , which he hath already answered : therefore i shall say no more to it here . so in those two quest. as i have shewed , thou givest us the quest. and then fallest in with us , in a seeming shew of fighting with us about other quest. which we deny no more then thou , and thou thy self affirmest as much as our selves ; and so is it in this quest. about the light : thou confessest with us , that all have seme light , but ( sayest thou ) the mystery of godliness , as summed up , tim. . we deny all have the knowledge of : and p. . if your meaning be , that the knowledge of the gospel is vouch safed by christ to every man , either i expect your proof , or shall prove the contrary : and so upon a taking it for granted ( as thy own and i.os. manner mostly is ) before it s given thee , for no such thing did we or r.h. consent to , by speech or silence , saving thy hasty prate ( and so g.w. tells thee in his reply , to whom thou , having as little to plead in excuse of thy rash charge of us , replyest as little in proof of it ) as that the knowledge of the gospel is vouch safed to every man ; for we own , as g.w. there sayes , that some are in the darkness and ignorance of the gospel , though the light is in them , that is able to bring them to know the gospel , which they disobeying , and not liking to retain god in their knowledge , are blind unto . i say , taking , or rather rashly raking that for granted that was not , thou proceed'st upon that score plainly , belabouring thy self in evincing a business that none gain-sayes , viz. that all men do not actually and truly understand the mystery of godlinesse and the gospell ; and as childishly arguing all along , a non actu ad non potentiam , a non esse ad non posse , from mens not knowing god and christ , that they are in no capacity , by a measure of light shining from them into their consciences to know them . the mystery of godlinesse ( sayest thou ) we deny , all men have the knowledge of ; and so p. . . pamph , 't is spoken of as a distinguishing mercy , to know the mystery of the kingdome of heaven , it was given to the disciples , not to others , matth. . . rep. to which i reply , who doubts of this ? it was hid from some , and the knowledge of it given so some , not to others ; but who were these some to whom given , when not to others ? were they not the disciples that learnt at the lips and light of christ , what he taught them , and saw willingly what he shewed them ; when the rest ( who might else have come to know , and have had it given them to know as well as these ) were such as had it declared in them , with the righteousness thereof , but that they shut their eyes , stop their own ears , lest they should see and hear that , which was contrary to their evil deeds , they were ●●ath to leave , and reproved them ? but what of this , are they therefore without the light that shewed it , and the meanes of the knowledge of it ? what idle arguing is here ? the mystery of godliness as summed up , tim. . ult . god manifest in the flesh , justified in the spirit , &c. we deny as well as thou , that all men have the knowledge of , for without controversie it is great , and so great , that ( saving all that knowledge thou thinkest thou hast , and wouldest be thought to have of it ) it remains yet a mystery to thy self : but what then ? will it therefore follow , that all men , in case they come to his light , are not enlightened by christ in some measure to know it ? because all are not enlightened so much as some are by christ , and all do not know what they might know , if they hearkened to christ , and heeded that light they have , therefore some are not enlightened by christ at all : here is the sum of t. d's . arguments ; and ( as i shall shew anon ) of i. o's i. t 's . r. b's . also against the saving light of christ's being in some measure in all men . the consequence whereof is as inconsequent as his , who disputes from the power to the act , or rather from the non-being of a business , to the non-possibility of it to be , to which from the other no wise man , nor any who is not more sophisticos then truly sophos will once offer to argue . to be without knowledge is one thing , to be without the meanes of it is another ; to be ignorant of the mystery of godliness , the gospel , and kingdome is one thing , and not to be ( in potentia , eriam proxima ) in an immediate possibility to know it , or to be utterly without any of that light which leads to it , is another . men may have light to see by , and the faculty or sence of sight too , who yet may shut their eyes and not see at all : men may have the faculty of understanding given them from god , whereby to know him , as iohn . he hath given an understanding , i.e. th / / : pmat faculty , that we may know him , that is true ; and this all men have , the inward visive faculty ( unlesse fools that are d●fective in their naturals , who yet have the faculty too , for defect in it doth not nullifie it ) though thou t. d. p. . f●●lishly and absurdly limits that as a speciall gift to ●ome only , as if the nations of men were without the faculty of understanding , whereby to converse with spirituall objects , if revealed to them by the light , and it be heeded ; and some are in the actual understanding of him that is , 〈◊〉 , and that is indeed the special gift of god to such as walk by that light , and in th●● light th●y have , as iohn and christs disciples did and do . and over and above that faculty they may have a light to di●cover sp●rituall objects to that understanding , and ●o enlighten them ●o , that they may savingly 〈◊〉 , and yet may never come to kn●w for all ●his , in case they come not to this light , as evil ones do not , iohn . , . but hate it , and chuse rather willingly to be ignorant , not delighting in , but saying to god , depart from us , we desire not the knowledge of thy wayes . from may be to must be is such a 〈◊〉 sort of sillogirt a●●tion , as is not owned in foro academico , in the schools of meer animall , naturall men , much lesse of christ and christians . and so that men know not , see not , therefore they may not , cannot see if they will , have neither eyes , nor light , this is as meer a non-sequitur , as to say of such as , not being willing to behold it , shut their sore eyes against the sun-shine , that therefore they have no eyes , and the sun shines not at all upon them . yet this is the common topick from whence our divines t. d. i. o. i. t. r. b. as we shall see by and by , and in a manner all our be●ghted doctors draw their dreams and deeply dark arguments against a measure of christs saving light so shining in every one ; and the ( now empty ) quiver out of which they have no● spared till they have spent all they have to shoot , too shoot their sharpest shafts against the quakers : not having so much light left in them●elves , for want of walking in time by what they had , as to heed that men may know that , if they be not wanting to themselves , which , if they be by not trading with their talent , they may also be as ignorant of , as they might have been knowing in . t. d. sayes , every man hath a light , and that light is from christ too , witness his own saying , wherein unawares he over-shoots himself again , to the contradicting of himself , yielding up the question to us , p. . pamp. expounding iohn . . viz. christ enlightens every man that is enlightened ; from which ( ad hominem ) i argue back upon himself , out of his own words , viz. christ enlighteneth every man that is enlightened ; this t. d. aserts from iohn . . but every man is enlightened , hath some light , whereby he discernes many sins , and duties , and divine attributes ; this t. d. cannot deny , for this is his own , p. . therefore t. d. ( though to the shame , contradicting and confounding of himself he does so , yet ) cannot rationally nor honestly deny what the qua. affirm , that every man is enlightened by christ the light of the world , and mediator between god and man. indeed t. d. sayes , 't is but dimly , that all men discern some sins , duties , divine attributes . repl. to that , as it s nothing to the question , so i reply , every man discerns them not so clearly as he might do , because he heeds not so heartily as he should do the light that shewes them . it s nothing whether men see and understand or no , it s enough , that the light shines into their hearts and understandings , to give the knowledge of ●●d , and so it doth in them , who are yet in darkness , and in a stare of it , for the true light shines in the darkness , though the darkness comprehends it not , joh. . . t. d. thinks he mends all in p. . of his . pamp. by eph. . . ye were sometimes darkness , but now light in the lord. rep : what then t. d. did not the light shine in them when they were darkn●ss , and did not comprehend it , because not turned to it , as now they were by pauls ministry , who was sent to turn men from the darkness to the light that shines within them , by which they became light in the lord ? yet if your meaning be ( sayest thou there , and that is our meaning indeed ) that all men have the light of the gospel within them , only all m●n do not obey it , 't is contrary to the scripture . rep. why so t. d ? he opposes the state of darkness ( sayest thou ) in which they were , to their present state of light . rep. what then t. d ? because they were in a state of darkness , had they no light shining in them , by taking heed to which at last they came out of it into a state of light ? how often shall i need to tell thee and i. o. that for the true light , and kingdome , and gospel , and righteousness to be in us ( in semine , in the seed ) is one thing , and for us to be in that , is another ; the kingdome of god , even the seed of righteousness , peace , spiritual joy ( as evident as the contrary seems to be to blind i. o. ex. . s. . who there sayes , in omnibus non esse justitiam , pacem , gardrum in confesso est ; its evident , that righteousness , peace , and joy , are not in all ) was sown in the pharisees , as the word of god is in four sorts of ground , whereof but one , that is the honest heart , that receives it with meekness , when there implanted , inlaid , ingrasted , brings forth the fruits thereof unto perfection , though the pharisees never entered into it , witness t. d. himself , who howbeit he joyus with i. o. in saying from luke . . the kingdome was among the pharisees , only in the ministry of it without ( mistaking it to be en umin , as if 't were 't were enough against him ) for entos umon , which i. o. confesses is us'd but once more in all the new testament text , matth. . . where it signifies the very inside of a vessel , yet joyns with me also , both against i. o. and himself too in the same place , p. . . pamp. saying , the expression may import , that the kingd●me , which upon a mistake ( such a one ( say i ) as upon which our pharisees look for it without them at this day ) they did look for without them , was indeed a kingdome within them ; and yet he sayes , this kingdome in them was threatned to be ( and was too ( say i ) at last , as it shall from you ) taken away from them . how often shall we need to tell you ( ye blind and deaf ) that to have light shining in one is one thing , and to be in it , in a state of light , and the children of it , is another ? to have the gospel preached in men is one thing , and for men to learn the mystery of it is another ; the gospel is preached in every creature under heaven , paul sayes , col. . . en pase te ktisi ; yea , have they not all heard , saith he , rom. . ? yes verily ' ( alluding to psal. . ) by which allusion thou thy self also expresly confesses , t.d. p. . pamp. the apostle would intimate , that the knowledge of the gospel should be of as large extent in the publication , as the knowledge of god by the ministry of the heavens and the firmament ( which is so to every individual man , that there 's neither speech , nor language , male , nor female , where their voice is not heard ) the found is gone out into all the world , and their words ( even christs and the spirits within , for the outward words and writings of men , preaching the gospel thereby , have never yet extended nor reached so largely as to all men ) to the ends of the earth . yet all have not obeyed the gospel ( saith he ) no not israel it self without , of whose having the outward letter of the statutes and iudgements ( which thou as sillily callest ( against thy self too , as g.w. truly tells thee in another case ) callest in both thy pamphlets the supernatural light , or knowledge of the gospel ) thou keepest such a scraping , as if that fleshly natural seed of abraham , and their natural fleshly wayes of knowing what they know , which was little of the mystery , cor. . by that natural reading and poring upon the letter , as ye also do , were the most supernatural men and means , as to the saving knowledge of the gospel , in all the world ; whereas the iews were as meer animal , and naturall , as your selves , who savingly know nothing by the letter : i say , that israel it self obeyed not ; and why not ? because as husie as they were with you in their bible , they regarded not , but rebelled against the strivings of the lord himself with them , by his light and spirit within ; therefore ( saith paul , ver . . as the reason render'd by god himself , isa. . . ) all day long have i stretched out my hands to a disobedient and gain-saying people . also , that they have the light in them , who yet neither believe in it , nor are the children of it , but yet abiding in darkness , is as clear from chrihs own words , iob. . . . . . i am the light of the world , he i.e. he of the world , that followeth me , shall not abide in darkness , but have the light of life : walk while ye have the light ; while ye have the light , believe in the light , that ye may be ( it seems they yet were not so , yet had a light in them to believe in ) the children of the light ; some of which light was come , not unto them only , but into the world also , ver . . that who e're believes in it might come out of darkness ; and evil ones had it come to them , as well as such as did truth , though they came not to it as the other did , else they could not be said to see and hate it ; and so christ and the father , whose will was revealed in it , as they are , iohn . . . . and . . . . so christ is come by his light ( as the sun by its beams , into some dark dungeon ) into the dark world , the dark places of mens hearts , and of the earth that are full of the habitations of cruelty , dens of devils , cages of unclean and hareful birds , holds of cruel , wicked , fowl , and filthy spirits , to give life , and that abundantly , iohn . . yea , he came to the scribes of old by his light , not outward person only , to that end , yet they had not the light of life ; why so ? ye hear not gods voice ( saith he ) and have not his word ( which ye put from you ) abiding in you ; ye search the scriptures , which testifie of me , who am the life , and there ye look to have it , and come not unto me that ye might have life , joh. . . . . . wisdome , christ the wisdome of god reproves , cryes to men in their own consciences by his own voice , light , and spirit in their hearts , even to scorners , simple ones , fo●ls , that hate knowledge , and would poure out his spirit on them , as on others ; but some hearken not , hate , turn away , so are slain , and perish , not for want of warning , counsel , light from christ to lead , who is given as the one leader and law-giver to all persons and people , but for want of taking heed to him who teaches , and looking to his law in the heart which enlightens . thou call'st , as i.o. does , falsly , the letter christs light , and the only means that men can come to saving knowledge by , yet heed'st no more , then he to his , to thy own satisfaction , that all who have it , and look and read in it too , as the scribes did , have not the knowledge of god and his kingdome by it ; and yet if we should say of those men that come not to life by the letter , therefore they have not the letter , would'st thou not say of us , that we are mad ? mutato nomine , the argument is thine to us-ward , as concerning christs light in the conscience ; yet , nunquam videns id manticae quod in tergo est , thou canst not see it . the corinthians had the light shining in their hearts to give the knowledge , yet all of them had not the true knowledge of god ; and that they had not , when he shone by his light in them , 't was their fault , else paul could not have spoken it as he does , cor. . to their own shame : and this may stand as an answer to thy pedling reply to g.w. when he urg'd from cor. . . that the light shone in the corinthians hearts : in whose hearts ( sayest thou ) p. . . pamp. not of all mankind , but of the apostle , and some others , a small number , in comparison of the rest , who were not enlightned ; and to back that thy shameful blindness , in limiting the shinings of the true light into such a little nook , as a small number , thou boltest out much more , saying , from ver . . . the gospel is hid to them that are lost , and there are some to whom the light shines not ; not heeding ( as i said before ) that that may be in men , which men may hate , smoother , and hide in their own hearts , and be lost for want of the sight of , when not for want of the light it self ; that men may have the serse of sight , and the presence of light , and yet not see , but shut their eyes ; that that may shine in them , which , they giving way to the god of this world to blind their minds , may not shine out unto them ; as a candle may shine in a room , yet if put under a bushel , not shine out to it , and a talent to trade with may be given to him , who , hiding his lords money , shall reap little profit by it , and at last have what light he had within , taken from him , and be cast forth without , into the outer darkness . didst never read of those , that seeing and hearing , would neither see , nor hear , nor understand , nor perceive , as they might , therefore at last should not if they would ? and because thou askest in whose hearts ? i say , in the hearts of some , who did not see and know ; in the corinthians hearts , so that they all had the light , and might have seen , but only that some would be ignorant , and of such sayes paul , cor. . if any man will be ignorant , let him be ignorant . and sith thou sayest , not in the hearts of all mankind : i say , yea , of all mankind , if any be exempted , it must be the heathen that know not god , the wicked ones , that like not to retain god in their knowledge , that have not the law in the letter of it ( according to thy principles ) but such are not exempted ; for rom. . . that which is to be known of god is manifest in them , for god hath shewed it in them , even his eternal power and godhead , and the invisible things of god from the beginning , which ( in his own light within ) are clearly seen by the things which are made , for the heavens declare his glory , the firmament shews his handy-work without , and by his light within in the understandings of men ( taking occasion thereby to contemplate on his greatness and goodness , as david did , psalm . when i behold the heavens , moon , and stars , the work of thy fingers , lord , think i , what is man ( saith he ) that thou visitest him ? how excellent is thy name ? and such like ) doth god reveal his greatness and goodness in regarding the sons of men . object . that makes for us thou mayest perhaps say ; god by these preachers without gives the knowledge of himself to the heathen ; but what is this to your light within ? we confess ( quoth i. o. p. , , . that god reveals and declares himself to us by the works of his hands without , creation , providence , &c. his works teach , and what they teach they do it in his name and authority , p. . repl. the heavens , &c. declare the glory of god only passively , as books , on which by the light within men may see and read it ( as also they may in the outward letter , which more verbally , though lesse visibly declares it ) but not so actively as tutors , that make a verball discourse upon it , for that is done by the light within , by which that to●gnoston tou theou is said to be manifested more immediately by god himself in them ; for howbeit the works of god hands , the outward creation , have a more visible stamp or character of gods greatnesse and goodnesse on them , then the meer outward letter hath , that is the works of mens hands and fingers , though writing ( as inspired ) what they see by the light within ; and the letter , and outward character thereof makes a more formall , wordy narration of it , then the works do ; yet that which most powerfully , and effectually , and actually teaches daily what the other in their respective more obscure and inferiour wayes do declare , ad extra , must be something ad intra , which falls in with , and teaches men , even the spirit of god in the faculty of mans understanding and conscience , and the inspiration of the almighty , job . . that gives the wisd●m and knowledge of him , whether by , or without the other , which without the other ●an and often doth , to men born blind , give the knowledge of god , as those ad extra , can never do without this ; for whatever knowledge men have of god its by it , and whatever is to be known of god by men it is , as the sun by its own light , manifested by this of god in them only , and not by the outward seeing of a of a w●k , or writing ad extra , which cannot be seen themselves ( any otherwise then as bruits may behold them bodily ) without not only the faculty of the rationall wind , which is the eye , but the light from god also to manifest the object to the understanding which light is not eyes ( quoth i. o. p. . ) 't is not the visive faculty or understanding it self , but ano●hing , a b●am of light communicated from the holy spirit to the understanding , for the removall of the dark shades that are over the mind , whereby it is led to see and judge of truth , as men see by the suns light , or else they cannot , though they have eyes ( howbeit elsewhere , ex. . s. . to the shamefull contradiction of himself again , i.o. sayes , this light is the eye of the mind ; lumen hoc est oculus mentis ; and s. . lux est facultas illa intelligendi , opsis dianoias , omma tes psuches , ophthalmos dianoias ; making light and sense , or the visive faculty as one , whereas before he had said , one was not the other , o rotas ! ) for where both these are not , viz. eyes and light suitable to the object , and the one exercised , and the other improved also , deest aliquid intus , still somewhat within is lacking , either eyes or light , ( or as 't is in such as have not forfeited those ) willingness to see when they may , and men can no more see god by the letter , nor his works without , then beasts , that can with bodily eyes discern both the skies and the scriptures ; and in a word , unlesse the light within manifest this , and it be heed by men also , though there be both skies and scriptures without , obviated to men without , and that faculty of the understanding also within , yet can men in their minds come to no more true knowledge of god , then they can without the light of the sun without , which manifests them and it self also , see the outward sun , and materiall heavens with the outward eye : not only the faculty of sight in the eye , and also a light to shew the objects needful , ( else , as t.d. himself sayes , a blind man might see when there is light , and a seeing man when none ) but a third thing is needful too , i.e. an eye opened to the light , and to the object , else he that hath eyes and light too , may shut his eyes and not see it : and as whatever is to be known of god , is to be known by that light within , or not at all ; so by it are men capable to see and know , taliter qualiter , in such measure as they have of the light , not only some things , sins , duties , divine attributes , as t. d. dimly and diminitively delivers himself about this , but also , as they grow in it by degrees , everything , as well as any of the things of god ( to gnoston ) that are knowable , or to be known of him by man to his own salvation ; i say , in such a degree ( which varies not the case ) as men have of it , they may come to know all things answerably , taking head to it , and doing the will of god as revealed in it , and that not naturally , as by the help of a naturall light ( as our naturalists or meer animall academians call it ) but spiritually , as by such or such a measure of the spirituall light , that flows , not as i.o. sains , and t.d. would fain seem to make it also , as the rationall faculty it self , a principiis naturae , but from god , christ , and the spirit into the minds of men ; and in such wise as they know any thing in that , they know it spiritually , by a supernatural , and spirituall , inward , immediate revelation of it to them by god himself , whereupon ( contrary to that vsteron proteron of our carnal , naturall , and litteral preachers , who say that is supernaturall knowledge only , that is attained to by reading the letter , which letter with i. o. t.d. and the rest , is the spirituall light , and that but naturall which comes from gods own light into all mens consciences , which light they will by no meanes allow to be called spirituall , but 〈◊〉 naturall ) i affirm that to be but the naturall knowledge of the meer annuall , naturall man , that is scrued out by the improvement of their naturall faculties of reading , remembring , &c. in their academicall , arteficiall scrutinies into the scripture ; which naturall knowledge ( though theirs , who wrote the scriptures , to be by immediate spirituall revelation i deny not ) abounded among the iewish doctors , scribes , and meer naturall rabbies , that stole the true prophets words , yet knew not god spiritually by hearing his words , which are spirit , nor by that spirituall revelation , or inward immediate reception of ought from his own councell , light , and mouth , from which only comes the true spirituall understanding , little lesse then it doth among our modern ministers of the letter , who , not coming to the light , know as little of the spirit , & of god , who is a spirit ( though they read and preach he is a spirits from the letter ) and as little of the mystery of the gospell ( spiritually ) as they . though then i. o. and t. d. both call the common light in mens consciences , whereby they know much of god , of his will , as to marter of sin and duty , and of his divine attributes , iudgements , &c. and all the knowledge that comes thereby , but naturall , and call the letter , and all the knowledge that comes now by reading of that , only spirituall ; see t.d. p. , , , . of his . pamph. p. . . of his second , by the statutes and iudgements given to israel ( which with t. d. is the outward letter of the old testament ) are meant the supernaturall light or knowledge of the gospell ; but rom. . . which speaks of the light or law in the conscience , is spoken ( quoth he ) of naturall light opposed to the knowledge of the iews . and i. o. p. . the scripture is a morall and spirituall , not a naturall light : but that in all mens consciences he calls , p. . the light of nature ; and p. . where he calls that from the light a naturall knowledge arising from the innate principles of reas●n , and that which is from the reading of the letter , a supernaturall revelation ; ex. . ( where how to the contradiction of himself he also calls it spirituall and not naturall may appear anon ) s. . speaking of the qua. negant lumen hoc naturale esse aut itadici debere sed a christo & spiritu christi esse , they deny this light to be naturall , on that it ought to be so called , saying , it s from christ , and the spirit of christ , s. . lumen internum omnibus commune naturale est , the light within common to all is naturall ; and so proceeds , in suo genere , to prove it : likewise i. t. and r. b. say the same , p. . it is yielded , that there is naturall light from christ , given every man : such light as christ , as mediator , conferrs not on every person , but all sorts of men , is termed supernaturall : so p. . and elsewhere they call it , light by nature , and humane light : yet i say the quite contrary , the letter , and the knowledge it gives , is the naturall , as i have shewed above , by which wicked men , that corrupt themselves also in those things , come to know naturally , and not spiritually , nor savingly the mind and will of god , ex principiis naturae , by custome , often use , and memory , &c. as brute beasts may by outward observance and custome know somewhat of the mind and will of man , iude but the light in the conscience , some of which all have , and the knowledge that comes thereby is the spirituall , supernaturall , and not the naturall light and knowledge ; 〈◊〉 this in the power of god i trust in brief to make good against you all ; though enough hath been said afore to any but such as you , that will look for more proof of it then wise men would do . one argument , by which its evident to all that are not blind ( as ye are ) that the law in the heart , or light in all mens consciences , is not naturall , and so consequently is spirituall , is even this from whence t.b. concludes it naturall , viz. because opposed to the knowledge of the iew● : of the iews knowledge by the letter was but naturall ; the light within , and knowledge by that being opposed to it , must be not naturall , and so consequently spirituall ; but that was but naturall , for they were mostly but naturall men , and worse , as they are at this day , persecuting and opposing ever the things of god , christ , the gospel , and the spirit , and all that are born after it , and have the spirituall knowledge of the mystery by it , as the naturall knowers by the letter do at this day ; and that the natur all man discernes not any otherwise then naturally , and not savingly , and so not spiritually the things of god and the spirit , paul tells us , cor. . . and t.d. also tells us , p. . of his . pamph. from that very text of paul , where he gives this irresistat●e reason for it also , because they are spiritually discerned . whence i take occasion to argue further thus ; viz. argum. . that light which gives to discern savingly ( as heeded ) the deep things of god and the spirit , which none but the spirit of god and christ searches out , knows , and savingly reveals , and which , as to salvation , are not by the naturall man , but spiritually , and by the spirituall man only discerned , who hath the mind and spirit of christ , must be not a naturall , but a spiritual and supernaturall light , and the knowledge that comes by it is not natural , but supernatural and spirituall . but the light in the consciences of all gives to discern the deep thing : of god , & the spirit in some , i.e. in such a measure as it s heeded , which none but the spirit of god searches , &c. therefore it , and the knowledge that is by it , is not naturall , but supernatural and spiritual . the mino , which our sore-named divines do deny , is as evident to such as live in the light , as the light it self is , and not a little of it evidenced by their own handy-works who oppose it . two particulars there are in it to be proved ; . that the light in all manifests or gives ( as heeded ) to discern in some measure the things of god and the spirit . . that ( as heeded ) it manifests them savingly . as to the first , i need go no further then your selves for witness , we have it under your own hands ; t : d : p : : pamph. confesses of that light , of which all men have some , that thereby all discern , not may sins only , which are the works of the flesh , which the letter sayes are manifest ( not by it self , but ) by the light christ gives , gal : : compared with eph. ● , : but also many duties , and severall divine attributes . now mens duties to god , in matter of declining sin , eschewing evill , and doing good , and gods divine attributes are things of god and the spirit , or else neither i , nor those who wrote the scripture neither , know what the things of god and the spirit are ; for they tell us , that our duties of love , ioy , peace , meekness , long suffering , temperance , patience , and such like , are the fruits of the spirit , and that not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh in the sins of adultery , fornication , uncleanness , lasciviousness , hatred , wrath , strife , envy , drunkenness , revellings , and such like works of it , is the fruit , effect , and issue of walking in the spirit ; and if these , love , &c. be not things of the spirit , excuse me if i say the spirit which moved them to write that gal. . knew not his own things himself ; and if ye say that gods divine attributes , mercy , iustice , iudgements , truth , holiness , are none of his things , excuse me also , if i favour not foolish fancies so far , as to spend time , pains , and paper to prove they are to them , which is so clear , that 't were as idle a thing to make clearer then it is , as 't were to light a candle to shew a blind man , qui ad s●lem caecutire vult , that the sun shines : and that the light doth manifest not only sins and duties , but the said divine attributes also , as we have had t.ds. witness against him , so let us take i. os. testimony against himself too , and then we shall be pretty well as to that : which i.o. preaches it out in print in two tongues , lest one should not be loud enough , in english thus , p. . . . . . by the innate light of nature ( so he calls it ) and principles of the consciences of men , that indispensible moral obedience which he requireth of us his creatures , subject to his law , is made known ; by the light that god hath indelibly implanted in the minds of men , accompanied with a moral instinct of good and evil , seconded by that self-judgement which he hath placed in us , in reference to his own over us , doth he reveal himself to the sons of men ; the voice of god in nature ( so he calls it ) declares it self to be from god by its own light and authority , there 's no need to convince a man by substantial witnesses that what his conscience speaks , it speaks from god , whether it bear testimony to the being , righteousness , power , omniscience , or holiness of god himself , or whether it call for that moral obedience which is eternally and indispensably due to him , and so shews forth the work of the law in the heart , &c. those common notions are in laid in the natures of men by the hand of god , to this end , that they may make a revelation of him , as to the purposes mentioned , and are able to plead their own divine original ( mark , of divine original here , in-laid by gods hand , yet anon , flowing ex principis naturae ) without the least strength or assistance from without ; and in latine , ex. . s. . non tantum multae coinat enn●iai , &c. — englished thus , not only many common notions and principles of truth abide fixed in the understanding , by the efficacie of which , men may discern some divine things , and discern between good and evil , but also by the help of the conscience take heed to themselves , as concerning many duties , with respect had to the iudgement of god , which they know they are liable to : moreover , this light in all at years of understanding , by the consideration of the works of god , creation , and providence , manifesting his eternal power and godhead , and in some by the word preached , may be improved and confirmed ; but how far this light can direct , stir up , and provoke mens minds to yield obedience to god , and they by it be left without excuse , it pertains not to this place more precisely to discuss . one of the main things pertaining to this point , about the light to be discussed among the rest , yet i. o. i believe was afraid to thrust his fingers too far into the fire here , for fear lest pr●ying too narrowly how far the efficacy of this light extends , he should , being forced to see somwhat that he is loath to see , both loo●e his cause , and open his conscience too wide , and therefore would wade no further there . i need not open it to him that is not defective in his naturals , how in all this as , if not more abundantly then t. d. in that above i. o. confesses , and witnesses to the truth of the first part of my minor proposition ; viz. that the light in the conscience of all , as heeded , gives the knowledge of those things of god , and his spirit , which the spirit of god only knows , searches , and shews , and reveals to such as wait in his light , to have the mind of christ manifested in them therein , which the natural man , by a natural light , cannot so know and di●cern . only ob. if it be objected , those are the deep things of god there spoken of , cor. . which your light in the conscience of all is too shallow to search out ; yea , the glorious things of the gospel it self , the mystery of which t.d. who knows it not yet himself , for want of turning to it , sayes by that light within , all know not , and the natural man discerns not . answ. that the natural man , which is he that leans to the letter , and his own understanding , and looks not to the lord in his own light and spirit in the heart , as spiritual men do , and in the doing of which , men of natural become more and more spiritual , de facto , discerns no otherwise then naturally , not savingly and spiritually , i still grant , but a non esse , ad non posse still nil valet : our question is , how far that light ( heeded ) avails that way ; which i affirm is so far , that according to the measure of it in men , and their attendance to it , it leads gradually ( as the light and spirit , and anointing of god is said to do , such as abide in it , as it in them ) into all truth , the knowledge of the very deep things of god and the gospel , a dim shallow sight of which it gives to such as turn to the least beam of it in them : e. g. the iudgements of god , are one of the deep things of god ; thy iudgements are a great deep , rom. . . his judgements and the wayes of it , and wisdome of god therein , are a depth : o the depth●hewr uns●archable his iudgements , his wayes , past finding out ? no natural man , by the improvement of his natural understanding in reading the letter can know them ; israel did not , who had the iudgements and the statutes in the letter , for want of looking to the light and spirit any more ( excepting the few spiritual ones , and children of the light , that were ever hated among them ) nay , nor so much as many heathens that had and heeded the law , or light in the conscience , yet had no law in the letter , but were more sottish , stupid , fearless of god , ignorant and prophane , then the heathen , among whom the name of god was blasphemed for their sakes , insomuch that paul saith , rom. . the very uncircumcision , as to the flesh and letter , doing in the light , by which they were made a law to themselves , by nature ( not corrupt nature , as t. d. thinks , nor by the pure nature , in a measure restored , without , or abstract from the light , the things of the law ) were better to god , then the literal professing iew , and more just and justified , to the very judging of them , who by boasting of the letter , and circumcision without , broke the law in the heart , and less lyable to wrath then the other ; which shews how god counts more on obedience in morals , spirituals , evangelicals , without the letter , and literals , then on all burnt-offering and sacrifice , and lifeless conformity to the letter . yet the heathen themselves , by the light in the conscience ( though videntes meliorae by it , they did mostly deteriwa sequi , see much , and do little ) at least came to know in a measure within themselves , the very righteous iudgments of god , that th●se that did such things as they did , are worthy of death , rm. . . and thou i.o. confessest the same in thy words above-recited , iudicio dei se subesse cogu scunt ; and the light within , and moral instinct of good and evil by it , seconded by a self-iudgement placed in us : yea , ioh. . the light and spirit of christ , the saints comforter , that walk in it , is in the office of a convincer to the world , of sin , and iudgement , & the law , which is the light in all , is spiritual , rom. . . ob. and if ye say we grant that , but what of the gospel of the righteousness of god , and the riches of his grace in christ , and what of christ can be known in that light ? answ. if ye will needs count the iudgement and wrath of god , which is a depth unsearchable by any that look only in the letter , which only tells of his wrath , or by any , save such , as , living in the light , have come to feel it within themselves ( for who knows the power of thy wrath ? saith the psalmist ; none , say i , but such as waiting in the light , have felt the weight of his hand , while judgement and condemnation passed on their evil deeds ) i say , if ye will reckon wrath , iudgement , and the ministration of condemnation , none of the things of god , none of his deep things , nor the things of his spirit and gospel , because your eyes are out ; but reckon it to the law or old testament only , and not to the gospel , to which yet it truly belongs , or new , which is the ministration of righteousnesse and mercy : yet i answer further , that not only iudgement and wrath , but the righteousness , salvation , mercy , and grace of god in christ , and christ himself is preached and revealed in the same light , in which the iudgement and wrath is revealed ; as it is the effectual work of the law in the h●a●t , to accuse , reprove , and condemn him that doth evil ; so ( v●sinet apello , i appeal to your selves , who assert it is ) is it not its work to excuse , acquit , justifie him within himself , who declines the evil , and does the contra●y good ? is there true righteous iudgement done , where as well mercy , comfort , peace , and acceptation with god is not ministred to the innocent ( though abimelech the heathen ) when they are found in integrity of heart , to gentile as well as iew , as terrour , r●proof , rejection , and wrath to every soul that doth evil , iew or gentile ? beside , say not the texts afore-cited , that the spirit convinces the world of righteousness , as well as of sin and iudgement ? and that in the same light ( which is indeed the gospel , and call'd by paul so , and the power of god unto salvation ) in which the wrath of god is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness , and unrighteousness of men , that withhold the truth told them by god himself , and his light in them , in unrighteousness ; the righteousness of god also is even therein revealed , from faith to faith , among the iust , that turn to , and own the light , and live by faith in it , rom. ? i know and see how ( page . pamp. ) t : d : would make a difference , if he could tell how ( that he might maintain his natural , or rather su●te , natural di●course about the meer naturalness of that light , that shews sins , duties , divine attributes ) between that one light ( say i ) in which the wrath is revealed , and in which the righteousness is revealed , where in answer to that unanswerable saying of paul about the to gnoston tou theou , when g.w. used it against him thus ; thou sayest 't is meant of a natural light , whereas 't is said to be the knowledge of whatsoever is to be known of god , rom. . . t.d. replyes thns sillily . the apostle intends , that what might be known of god without the preaching of the gospel , was known to the gentiles , verse . . 't is by the gospel that the righteousness of god is revealed . rep. as if we must think the apostle in that phrase , whatever is to be known of god , is manifest in men , excluded and excepted the light of the gospel , and inward word , of which he talks elswhere , rom. . that it s nigh to men in their hearts : and col. . . is preached ( viz. ) in every creature under heaven , and meant only some nescio quid , i know not what kind of manifestation that hath nihil commune cum scripturis , holds no analogy with the scripture , because t.d. makes his shallow sensless say-so on the place , whose reply ( but 't is his usual way , when he has nought else to say , to make what additions to , and alterations of a text he pleases , and then to say , when there 's no such matter either expressed or implyed , it intends so and so , or it intends not so , though so said ; god indeed in many texts makes offer of salvation to all , but intends it only to a few ; by all , is meant some , by in us , in christ , and many of the like sort ) is not worth any other reply , then to tell him , it 's not worth a rush ; and g. ws. saying to him out of paul , stands o're t. ds. head still , for to gnoston , what is to be known of god , is any thing that tends to mans salvation , without such an exception as t.d. adds , to the making of paul there ( as he does god and the penmen in many more texts ) dissemble , like to t.d. himself , so as to speak one thing , and intend another , that destroyes the very sense of his own words . but saving t : ds : mis-meaning of that matter assuredly enough , the same that reveals the wrath reveals the righteousness ( & retro ) and that that reveals the righteousness is a measure of the light of the gospel of gods rich grace and goodness , that is given to impenitents , to lead them to repentance if they obey it , and so to forgiveness and life , or otherwise to leave them without excuse , when having trifled away the time of gods long-suffering and forbearance , in rebellion against the light , god comes in his righteous iudgement to take full and finall vengeance upon them : whereupon it is called the riches of gods goodness ( which is never the lesse to them , though they perish in their wills ) even to them that yet despise it , by which they are not left without faithful reproof , and warning within themselves , but are put in fair capacity for salvation from the wrath , for the despising of which light , that will not let them sin themselves to ruine , without stopping them , till they be obstinate , they treasure up wrath to themselves against the day of it . rom. . . . despisest thou the riches of his grace , &c. not knowing that the goodness of god leadeth thee to repentance , &c. arg. that which is the riches of gods goodness and grace to the very wicked that despise it , and perish , which would else lead them to repentance and life , must needs be a part of the gospel , and its light ; but such is that which leaves , and is in all men , in the very wicked , leaving them inexcusable if they repent not by it ; therefore that light in all men , iew and gentile , good and bad , is a measure of the light of the gospel , which ye puffers at it would fain shut up , from shining in common in al men , among a few such unhallowed elect ones , and seeming saints , as your selves ; for that the grace of god that brings salvation , where it is , to such as put it not far from them , should be said by us , as it was of paul , tit. . , . to appear to all men , is as damnable heresie with you in us , as 't is undeniable truth with you , as told by paul : yea , this ye are impatient at , that proclamation of grace , and good will from god to all men , with true intent that all should have it , that are as willing to have it as god is they should , or otherwise then pretendedly , as you make it , should be made : and yet the churl , that practises hypocrisie , and utters errour against the lord , and ( howbeit he sayes , eat , o friends , drink , yea drink abundantly every one that thirsteth , life , as well as death is freely and truly set before you , chuse life , that ye may live , and welcome , christ is come , that ye may have life , and that abundantly ) yet makes empty the soul of the hungry , and causes the drink of the thirsty to sail , by telling them that god freely proffers this to all , but intends it only to a few , would be called bountiful and liberal for all this , but it must not be in the day that is coming , wherein the eyes of such as see shall not be dim , and the eye of the old seer be darkened , the tongue of the stammerer tell the plain truth , and the mouth of the university student be stopped , and the lips of the lyar be shut up , isai. . , , , , , . this common salvation , iude . ye cannot digest , 't was wont to be said , bonum quo c●mm●n us eo melius : but if i should say ( instead of pe●us ) bonum quo communius eo melius , it were not more false latine then the tale of a tender of life from god to all men , intended only to a few , is the false doctrine of our undoctor-like divines , which false doctrine they contradict and confute themselves in also , if once they could see wood for trees , as fast as another can well confound them , while themselves tell us of , not only a special , but a common grace , which is the common distinction of the schools ; for if it be grace ( though common grace ) it must be a light , a gift , a part of the gospel of gods grace , out of which gospel no grace is , and such a part and gift too , as must at least , by its sufficiency to save such as improve it , put all in a capacity for salvation , and not sufficient only to leave them without excuse , and aggravate wrath and condemnation upon them , otherwise that grace is no true grace or favour , or if it be , give me none of that grace , take you ( o ye graceless gravers of that grace , whose graven image it is , that hath a being only in your imaginations ) that grace wholly to your selves , that is given for no such gracious end or purpose , as to put men into possibility of salvation ( as upon your principles of personal repro 〈◊〉 , this common grace does not ) but only to render them unavoidably lyable to sorer condemnation , and fuller wrath , then they should ever have known , had they never had it . but what e're ye carve to your selves in your own conceits , god had 〈…〉 to the whole world , as well as to you choice sinners , and in as fair a capacity ●●ally to partake of it are the very heathen , who by you are rep●obated by the lump , as your antichristian selves , except ye repe●● , ●u●● then i●●e by your books ye have ever , yet done , to a ●ound and sin●● acknowledgement of the truth : nor did god send his son a light 〈◊〉 the w●●● , that mostly perish in their wills to any such intent , that the world it self should be condemned , but that the world through him might be saved . so then it s no less then a measure of the light of the gospel it self , a dram , at least , and degree of gods grace , and that not natural , but spiritual , supernatural , sufficient for men , and saving to such as submit to be taught by it , which from god is imparted , and by his hand ( as thou i.o. speakest ) indelibly implanted in the minds of all men , whereby his things , and the things of christ , and his spirit , come by such as wait on him in it , to be both spiritually and savingly discerned . and ob. if ye object yet further ( as some do ) we yield that what is to be known of god , his invisible things , his eternal power and godhead , divine attributes , and our moral duties to him , in declining moral evils , and doing much moral good , as to our creator , eternally and indispensably due , are manifested in measure by that common light , but deny that any thing of christ still , and of the mysteries of the gospel is so , and so it s still but a natural , nor a spiritual light . answ. though what i said above from cor. . concerning the things that eye hath not seen , &c. and the deep things of god , which must be of the mysteries of the gospel , might suffice ; yet i shall add thus much more , viz. that it savours of little less then a little of that gross darkness which is to cover the earth , and its people , when the light of god arises upon his own , to say that god can be known in , or by any light , in which christ first is not known : i know this is a riddle to you rabbies , and may seem to all sottish seers as a piece of a mad mans divinity , but i dare aver it to be truth , though i can't believe many of our english infidels will believe it , till they see it so clearly , that they cannot chuse ; for how many wayes of knowing god ye may coin to your selves , in your own conceits , i care not for knowing ( for more then a good many ye have ) but this i know , that if the scriptures be true ( as i know they are ) which ye profess to be your rule of tryal for all things , there is noe true way of coming to the true knowledge of god , so much as a iudge , much less as a father , but one , and that is neither the scripture itself , which tells of that way , nor any thing else , but christ himself , and his light , to whom god hath committed all iudgement , which iudgement he administers by his light , before any see his face , as a father , in righteousness and live : he hath given forth a light to the world , whereby to know himself , but this light is in his son ; he that hath the son , and believeth on the son , in whom is the life , and his life is the light of men , hath everlasting life ; he that hath not , and believeth not in the son , hath not life , though he is capable of it , but by the light in which he stands condemned , the wrath of god yet abideth on him : so that whereas ye say there 's knowledge of god , but not of christ , by that universal , internal light , there is in truth no knowledge of god at all , but in the light of christ , who bears his image , who gives forth the light of the knowledge of his own glory in the face of iesus christ : i am the way ( saith he , john . . ) the truth , and life , no man cometh to the father but by me : the father reveals the son in men by his light , before he reveals himself , gal. . . so that as no man knows the son , but he in whom the father reveals him , so no man knoweth the father , but the son , and he to whom the son will reveal him ( as he will to all that wait and walk on in his light ) let him search ne're so long after , or in the letter , mat. . . ioh. . . . till he feel after him in the light within himself , in which only god , who is not far from every man , though most men are far from him , is to be found act. . no man hath seen god at any time , the only begotten son who is in the bosome of the father , whose out-goings from thence have been from of old , mic. . . as well in a way of manifestation of the fathers mind to men , from the beginning of the world , as in way of eternal generation , before the world began , prov. . . to . though t.d. not knowing the lamb slain from the foundation of the world , knows not how to say amen to this . see page . of his . pamp. he it is , that by his spirit and light within , which the letter only relates of , doth reveal him , ioh. . . men must know christ , i. e. in his light which cornelius was in , which is his day , that abraham saw , whether they ever see his fleshly person , yea or nay , before they can know god , who is known in nothing but his own light , the son , who is known in nothing but his own light , the spirit , that comes from , and leads to him ; so that to say , as a professor of note said in a publike assembly in ireland , of a friend of truth , call'd a qua. whom i know , having heard him speak , this man knows much of god , but little of christ , is little less then a bull that favours , for all the natural , literal knowledge of both , of little less then a spiritual ignorance in the mystery of both god and christ. and this gives me the hint to make mention of another argument , that this light is not natural which is in all , viz. because it comes from god and christ into every creature , not by creation , as the rational soul , and its faculties of understanding , will , mind , memory , conscience it self do , and such properties as are , de esse hominis , whether constitutive , or consecutive , so that a man is no man at all , or hath not the essential form of a man , as distinct from the outward brutum , or beast of the field * for a man may remain phusicos , a natural man , or rather psuchicos ( as the word is in many places , where rendred natural , as well as where sensual , cor. . cor. . iam. . iude . ) a true animal , soul-ly man , a man that hath a soul rational and sensitive , though in its faculties defaced , clouded , darkned , benighted , and lost from the lord , and his light now withdrawn from him , even after the light is kid from his eyes ( as it was ever at last from such ( as to any life by it ) who would not be led to life by it , while they had it ; witness the pharisees , and ierusalem ) and after he remains now irrecoverable for want of light , to the primitive pure nature , which only loveth and obeyeth the law , and delighteth truly in the light. the light , then i say , comes from god and christ into the mind and conscience , not as the soul , and its essential faculties of understanding , will &c. do , which with the organical body , make that one compositum call'd man , that may be either in unity and communion with god and christ , or in onmity and separation from them , according as he walks , or walks not in the light that shines from them , but by way of immediate infusion from them into the mind and conscience ( which of itself is a dark place , pet. . . and destitute , as to the knowledge of god , without a measure of it ) as a thing distinct and separable from the man in whom it is , and a witness against him , when he runs from the will of god revealed to him in it , though eternally one with god and christ , from whom it shines and flows ( and not ex principiiis natura , as i. o. sayes ) with whom it ever sides , let the man go whether he will , never consenting to any , but condemning all iniquity committed by him , and counselling continually ( whether heeded or no ) before hand against it : and lastly ; from whom it is as unchangeably inseparable , as the light beams and rayes of the sun are from the sun it self from whence they shine , with which they are in conjunction still , whether this or that part of the world be actually enlightned by it , or by the moons interposing eclipsed from it , yea or no. so that upon these considerations it can't be natural as i.o.t.d. i.t. r.b. deems it , but do nothing at all to the purpose in proof of it so to be . so that in further proof of it to be spiritual , and supernatural , and disproof of their proof-lesse position , that its natural ; to save the pains and charge of laying them out at length , i lay down these following proofs , which wise men may argue out more at large , to their fuller satisfaction within themselves . argum. the light in all consciences shines thereinto from god , christ , and his spirit ; therefore 't is not natural , but supernatural and spiritual ; for these two ; viz. natural and spiritual , natural and supernatural , do tollere se invicem are inconsistently denominated of one light , and that it is spiritual , is shew'd after also : the consequence i. o. denies not , but confirms , while himself ex. . s. . opposes all light that can be call'd natural , to that which is from christ and his spirit , * and as for the antecedent , that its from god , christ , and his spirit , is as evident from their own confessions and declarations ; i. o. calls it the voice of god , page . indeed he adds in nature , by which 't is like he intends that which nature utters , or the voice of nature ; but there is no voice of god , which is natural to man , that i know of ; he that finds out that chimera , must have it in the nineth chapter of no where at all , or else in the tenth of go look it , for he will never meet with that monster in the scripture , nor in any rule of right reason : indeed nature may be said to have a voice , as well that of man , who is fearfully and wonderfully made , as that of the natural , material heavens , all which declare suo modo ( ut prius ) the glory of god the maker ; nor is there speech or language where this voice of nature is not heard ; but that this voice of nature , is the voice of god in the conscience , or that light within he speaks of ; or that the light or voice of god in the heart , is a voice of god , de esse hominis , essential and natural to man , credat apella . he calls it , page . . a light god hath implanted in the minds of men , that which speaks to man from god , of a divine original , and such like terms as are exclusive of its being but natural ( for himself pleads the divine original of the letter , as now , which yet is not of so immediate a divine original by far , as the light by which god speaks nigh in the heart ; for at first it came to men from him through the hands of holy men , and now to us rem●tely through the hands of how many unholy men we know not , in proof of its being a true spiritual , and not a natural light ) and also exclusive of its being the mind and conscience it self , as some call it , saying , it 's conscience , it 's conscience , when as it is as distinct a thing from the mind , understanding , and conscience it shines in , and as little essential to it , as the candle is ( respectively ) from and to the dark room wherein it shines : but this that god by his light within shews something of himself to all , is not much denied by you , nor are ye easily perswaded by us , but that all that is but natural still ; but ye deny light in common to all , coming from christ and his spirit , which though i have shewed so plainly above , from iohn . . . pet. . , . col. . . where christ is said by his spirit to have strove with , and preached to the spirits in prison , in the world of old , to convince the world , and enlighten every man in it , and the gospel to be preached in every creature ; yet a word more with you here as to this ; let us see how far your selves confess to it , and deny it . t. d. confesses , page . . pamp. or at least denies not the gentiles to have been enlightned by christ ( as god ) before his coming in that body at ierusalem , but it seems denyes he did , or does enlighten all ( as christ ) and i. o. sings much what to the same tune with him , ex. . s. . saying , nihilnon naturale , nihil spirituale , nihil specialiter a christo mediatore emanans communicatum , &c no light that 's spiritual , none but what is natural flowing , or no light shining out from christ ( as mediator ) nothing but what men , yet destitute of all saving knowledge of him , may have without christ , and apart from him , is mentioned rom. . . . and ex. . s. . christus sub nulla , &c. christ in no case hath vouchsafed saving light to all and every man ; in all which sayings i. o. seems to confess with t. d. that god indeed , and perhaps christ ( as god ) may vouchsafe to all lucis cuasdam scintillulas , reliquias nonnullas primitivae lucis ( as he diminutively speaks ) some relikes of the first light man was lost from , some small sparks of light , &c. to all men ; but these are but meerly natural , neither supernatural , spiritual , nor saving , or sufficient to bring men ( however heeding them ) to any saving knowledge of god ; but as for christ ( as christ ) the mediator between god and man ; there 's nothing , no light at all that 's saving , or by the best improvement of which , that can be made , they can possibly come to salvation by him , so much as vouchsafed by him to all , or to any , but some elect ones . yea , ex. . s. . . . christian , &c. that christ doth not indue ; and savingly enlighten all , and every man , but some only that is the elect , with that divine light ( in respect of which we confess him to be the light of the world , and consequently of al men ) is so ascertain'd from innumerable testimonies of scripture , and the experience of all ages , that he must even be blind and destitute of all spiritual understanding , that shall once dream to the contrary : and s. . lumen hoc , utcunque ei attendatur , non est ullo respectu salutare sed in ribus-emnibus divinis , finem ultimum quod attinet , meraetenebrae & caecitas ; this light howsoever attended to , is in no respect saving , but in all divine things as to the utmost end , meer darknesse and blindnesse it self : thus these men ; and the same in effect is asserted by r : b : and i : t : as will appear more by and by . i must therefore down rightly address my self , as the lord shall lead me , not minding the method so much as the matter it self , to reply to all this stuffe , whereby t : d. and i : o : i : t : r : b : in speciall , who as generals to other blind guides of poor , blind people , against the qua. strive to storm the plain truth out of dores . and to evince it , that some measure of that true , spiritual , and ( if attended to and improved ) saving light and grace , in respect of which he is said to be , the light and saviour of the world , which is spiritual light ) for in the same senses , men are said to be darkness , are they enlightened ( quoth i. o , ) but without controversie the men , the spirit speaks of , iohn . . were not naturally blind , but spiritually darkness ) is vouchsafed , and shines from christ ( as christ the mediator between god and man ) even to all , and every man in it . first i shall follow on in the way i was going on in to clear it , that christ ( as christ ) the light of the world , by his light and spirit , and not ( as god only ) enlightens every one , in the proof of which the rest is all concluded , though yet i may grow on to take notice of the rest in particular also . and first i shall minister the truth to you from that text , which you ministers against the truth do so mangonize among you , as to make neither more nor lesse then just as many meanings of , as ye are men ; for between you four there are four senses put upon it , whereof though some of them , in terminis , are true enough to serve truths turn against you , yet as ye mince your matter in the minds , and as ye mean and wrest your own true words , as well as the text it self , the wrong way , there is never a one of all four that falls fully upon the white . that text is , iohn . . that was the true light , which enlightens every man coming into the world . that the true light here spoken of is christ , and the light that comes from him , which iohn baptist , a shining light in his season , but inferiour to him , was not , but only bare testimony to , in whom is life , and whose life is the light of men , that shineth in that darkness , which comprehends it not ; and so consequently not a naturall , stuens ex●●●piis naturae , much lesse as natural to man as his intellect , mind and conscience it self , as i. o. sayes that light which all have is , ( ex. . s. . lumen h●● est naturalis propria & niseparabilis mentis & conscientiae vis & efficazia ; eculus ( and yet , p. . light is not eyes ) & acies me●tis est . st lumen hoc non 〈◊〉 naturale , neque intellectus neque mens neque conscientia homin naturalis est ) and insufficient , but a spirituall , supernaturally and all sufficient light to save all ●●ch in whom it is , in case they believe in it , is a truth , which as it is undeniable in it self , so i never yet met with any , minister or other , that was so deeply darkened as to deny : yea i. o. positively affirmeth it to my hands , ex. . s. . lucem & illuminationem quarum hic loci mentio facta est spirituales esse a●que ad renovationem gratiae , non naturales atque ita ad creationem pertinere apparet , &c. it appears that the light and illumination , mentioned john . . are spirituall , and pertaining to the renewing of grace , not natural , and pertaining to the creation : so that were there as little as there is much to be said beside , all those particulars ( if the universality of it hold but as well from the latter part of the verse ) stand proved without any more ado : the question then which alone we are concerned to enquire into , is , whether this light ( which , as i. o. sayes , ex. . s. . non est salutare cum sit naturale , so i contrary , non est salutare cum sit salutare ) be so common to all , that every man that cometh into the world be enlightned with it in some measure , yea or no ? now we have the expresse words of the spirit on our side , and are sure enough ( as to our selves ) that we have the mind of christ in them also , which is but one ; but on their side are their own senses , minds , and meanings , which are so many , even no lesse then four to that one of ours , which most properly answers to the words , so that if they can't carry it by weight , yet they hope to have it by number , and chuse to out-word us since they see they cannot out-weigh us , hoping that several senses may well stand and take place against one single one ; but as a dram of honesty , and naked simplicity , is to go further then a deal of subtilty , and hypocrisie in the dayes that are coming , so one of the qua. proper constructions of scripture will be preferred by honest people before a four-fold improper one of the priests imposing : the qua. are in possession of the plain terms of the place , and of that meaning which most properly answers to them , saying , that by every man coming into the world , is intended , honestly and plainly , truly and properly , without dissimulation , every man indeed , as 't is there expressed , and that the spirit meanes nakedly and truly what he sayes ; these stand proking , pelting , and stickling , with a company of stones , and sticks , and strawes to storm the qua. out of the strong hold they have in it . . as for t. d. he lets fly out of the devils bow ( in which he shoots , which l. h. hath unstringed and enervated not a little as to many false matters of fact he charges the qua. with , by his discharging at them out of it ) no lesse then three severall senses , or senseless shafts , viz , two p. and one p. . of his pamph. every of which has truth in it , as to the termes he utters himself in , but so false , as he pinchingly intends by by his own words , that all three of them , put together , do not reach far enough to make up the whole truth , that is there intended , and so by short shooting he loses all . his first sense is this ; viz. that christ enlightens every man that is enlightened . repl. so say i ; that makes for us , that is every man without exception ; for thus i argue ( shooting back t. ds. arrows against himself , who overshot himself in one sense as much , when he gives this sense to that place , in his words , by which he gives us the cause , as in his minde he under-shoots the truth in another , for he meanes not by them ( though his phrase imports it ) that every individual man is inlightned . christ enlightens every man that is enlightned . but every individual man is enlightned . therefore christ enlightens every individuall man. the first proposition is t. ds. own ; the minor , viz. that every man is enlightned with some light , is his own grant also , p : : where he sayes , we grant , that every man hath some light , by which he discernes many sins , and duties , and several divine attributes : so that let his meaning be what it will , if he meanes as he sayes , ( as it is fit he and and every honest man should , and as the spirit does ) we have his own words , as well as those of the text , on our side also against himself ; therefore t. d : if he own himself , must ( of all men ) own the conclusion , viz , that christ enlightens every individuall man. . whether t. d. saw any advantage he had given us by this sense thus expressed , or no , it matters not ; but expressing his mind , as to the interpretation of this text , p : : there he adds a clause , by which he imagines he mends the matter , and so he does , as much as one that makes it never the better ; for there he shoots out his sense thus , that christ enlightens every man , who is ( spiritually ) enlightned . repl. which is very true , yea so say i again ; but this arrow does no execution against us , nor that universal sense in which we expound the words , according to the universality of their expression ; of which it is no way at all exclusive ; for what though christ enlightneth every man that is spiritually inlightned , it doth not follow ( unless t. d. had said , as its like he meanes , but that his sayings and meanings so seldome agree together , that he measures the spirit also by himself , as saying one thing , and meaning another , and so would set the spirits words and the spirits meanings at odds , and together by the eares against themselves ) christ enlightens only such men as are spiritually inlightned . nor secondly , if he had said so , would it have followed , that every individual man is not enlightned , for of a truth every individuall man is not only enlightned , but also spiritually enlightned ; for he that is enlightned to discern spiritual things , good or bad , spiritual wickednesses or spiritual righteousness , many sins , and duties , and divine attributes , which are all spirituall objects , and some of them some of those things of the spirit , which the meer natural man , without the spirits revealing , cannot know , because they are spiritually discerned , that man must be spiritually enlightned ; so out of a better bow then the devils , even that of iosephs , which abides in strength , i shoot back t : ds : second arrow again , thus against himself , as that which hath done us no harm , howbeit he meant it otherwise , it being in his mind to have mischief'd the truth : viz. christ enlightens every man that is ( spiritually ) enlightned , witness t : d : p : : but every individuall man is more or lesse even ( spiritually ) inlightned , i. e. to discern spiritual objects , which by the spirits revealing them only , and not naturally , but spiritually only , or by the spirit are to be discerned , witness t : d : again p : : therefore christ inlightens every individuall man. t : d : who hath mostly two , hath here a third string to his bow , left the two first should not hold , from which he shoots thus , viz. he enlightens some of every nation , kindred , tongue , and people , as the phrase is rev. . . repl. and this , however he meanes pinchingly , yet is true too , in terminis , that christ enlightens some every where , a number in all nations , as he expresses it over again p. . for the termes ( all ) and ( every one ) are conclusive continually of ( some ) but that arrow reaches not far enough to wound our universal construction , so long as the termes ( some ) ( a number ) ( many ) without a ( but ) put to them , whereby to bolt out othersome which is wanting here ( though elsewhere added and by and by to be talkt with ) is not exclusive of all men , of every man , nor of any man ; and so his bow and bolts shoots too short to hit the butt still : nor is the phrase rev. : : which t : d : in his fancy , fellows , and identifies with this in iohn : : like it in any wise , for one is ( enlightens every man in the world ) the other ( redeemed us out of every nation , &c. ) were it , redeemed every man in every nation ; and made every man in every nation : and kindred , &c. a king , a priest to god , &c. then it had been somewhat nee● a kin to it indeed . thus t : d : by his single self , with all his sharpest shafts , or sorry shifts , can make nothing stick to the gaining of any ground against us , nor so much as to stirre us a hairs breadth from our interest in it , much lesse to storm us out of the strong hold we have in that high place of scripture , wherein the qua. stand over the head of the serpent , to the bruising of it : let us see ( sith vis unita fortior ) what the joyned forces of him and i. o. together can do , for they two , who fight as under from that text in some of their several senses against the qua. fall in together in one of their four or five senses ( even that which hath the least sense and reason in it of all the rest ) and so of two make one most senselesse head against the qua. and the text , and the truth , or true sense of the spirit , no lesse plainly imported and implyed to any , but that darkness which comprehends not the true light when it shines in it , then it is plainly end evidently exprest therein . that sense i shall joyn issue in against them both at last , but there lies on single sense of i : o : wherein t. d. joyns not with him , wherewith i. o. shoots out of the same bow , as hard as he can , against us ; though too short to hit or hurt us , the which must be shot back again upon himself first , in the service of the qua. and the truth , which it serves perfectly , while not at all themselves , nor their own false doctrine , and then i shall have the more field-room to fight them both in about the other . the sense of i. o. which is not only his own neither ( though t. d. appears not to own it with him ) for i have seen others besides as himself seeking to shuffle off the truth with it , is this , viz. christ coming into the world inlightens every man ; and this sense seems to be ushered in with a deal of p●mp and ceremony , as if i : o : was confident of carrying the cause by it , when it first center'd within his conciet , and so intended to act his triumph over the qua. before his effecting of the victory : i shall set down some of his triumphant matter , wherein he marches on towards the text , where he meets us , and make some occasionall notes on some crosse whets to himself , and halts , and inter-feeres he makes by the way . i. o : videan●us porro quid contra garriunt fanatici , ut que operam dent quacum ratione aliqua insanire videantur , &c. ex. . s. , . le ts see ( quoth he ) what the quakers prate to the contrary , and how they do their best to shew that they are not mad without some reason ; but they bring no new thing , they are old worn out arminian matters they bring , a thousand times confuted already : they have nothing more frequently in their mouth then those words concerning christ , john i. . they never make a more horrid out-cry , then when they come upon this place ; here they fain wonderfull triumphs to themselves , and not a little cast ignominy on their adversaries . repl. no otherwise , i say still , do we reproach , then as the virgin of sion , isai. . , . despised , laughed to scorn , shook her head at the insolent filliness of the haughty assyrian , that reproached , blasphemed , exalted his voice and lifted up his eyes on high against the holy one of israel , in his truth and people , o're whom he looked so superciliously , as if he would pluck them out of sion by the eare● , when he was not so much as to shoot an arrow , that should reach to do any execution there : no otherwise then as plain ephraim , the people , and the honest hearted sons of sion are at this day , in the spirit and power of the lord ; to be raised against thy silly-seemingly-wise sons , o greece , and to be made against you greekish scribes and disputers of this world , as the sword of a mighty man , and a polished shaft , and his bow , and arrows , and battel-axe in his hand , to beat down , aud break in pieces the horse and his rider , and , as the potters clay , the works of them that turn gods things upside down , so that it shall be said , where is the scribe ? where the disputer ● where is he that counteth the towers , &c. mich. . per totum , zach. , : per totum : isai. . cor. . and thanks be to god , who alwayes maketh us thus to triumph in christ , and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place : which ye doctors and divines cloud and darken with your di● , dry divinity , for we are unto god ( though a stink to your unsavory selves ) a sweet savour of christ in them that are saved , and in them that perish through their hatred of the light that enlightens every of ●homs , without an illumination by which there were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to them for rejection of it : neither are we as the many 〈◊〉 that hu●ksterin●● and deal decei●fully about the word of god , for their own self ends , but as of sincerity , as of god , in the sight of god speak we in christ , 〈…〉 j. o. they say that scripture speaks of christ , he therefore is the light , christ is the light , and moreover be inlighteneth not this and that man only , but every man that comes into the world , that is , all men , and every individual of them , neither could anything be affirmed more clearly . repl. neither could it in truth , but that the selfish seers are all blind , and its ni●ht unto them so that they cannot divine . i. o. that the scriptures are to be interpreted ( extorsimus ) we have enforced it from own adversaries . 〈…〉 w●ll do 〈◊〉 thou say , extorsimus , we have wrested it from them by force 〈◊〉 how 〈◊〉 own the interpretation of the script . ( which is no way of any procure interpretation ) may be interpreted by the same publick spirit of god that gave it forth , and by those that open it in the light of that spirit ; yet we never yielded it to you yet , nor never shall , that the scripture is to be opened by that dark , private , narrow , selfish , sottish spirit of satan , that in you lusts to envy against the truth ; nor by that fallible spirit that ye are searching the scripture , and preaching out of it by , who your selves deny any man ( as is above shewed ) to be in these dayes guided by any infallible direction of the infallible spirit of god : for that fallible spirit of yours , which leads you into as many meanings on it well nigh as ye are men that meddle with it , ( and more too sometimes , one man putting two or three senses ( as t. d : doth ) and two men no lesse then four between them , as i.o. and t. d. on one text ) does but make such a nose of wax of the scripture , as may be and is too ( whereby ye may see what a steady rule ye have of the letter without the light ) turned and twined by every of you into his own turn ; till ( as the picture that every passenger had liberty with a pensil to mend , what he thought and fancied to be amisse in it as he passed by , at last became a mishapen monster ) so the scripture is scrued into such a multiformity of mens monstrous meanings , that he must be monstrously blinded indeed , within a while , who will not see a necessity of a more stable standard to measure truth by , then a transient , much mistranscribed , much more mistranslated , most infinitely misinterpreted text , letter , or outward writing can ever possibly be , which more stable standard is that of the infallible light and spirit , not ( as i. o. judges it must needs be , if not the letter ) that pretended unerring popes breast and bosome , and his infallible chair . j. o. the sense of this place comes now in question . . christ is light , to wit , in the same sense in which we have shewed god is light ; he is light in respect of his essentiall majesty , holiness , and glory ; also he is light quatenus , & ● as he is the fountain , author , and cause of all light , that is essentially , and efficienter , as the efficient of it . . christ is said to be the light of men , not that light which is in men ; he is the cause of all light , not all light , not that accidental and corrupt light , whereof we speak . repl. o yes , hear all manner of people , who is so blind ( but i : o : himself , who is in suis tal●● ) as not to see how i : o : gives up his cause by the way , while he is but upon his triumphant march toward the text , before he touches it , whereabout the pitcht battel is to be . the grand question , about which his quarrell with the quake●s is , is , whether christ as an efficient doth enlighten all men , yea , or nay ? that all men have some light , are in some measure enlightaed within themselves , to discern sins , duties , divine attributes , moral good ; and evill , the things of god and themselves , this is not denied , but abundantly affirmed by t : d : and i : o : specially , who oft o're and o're tell us of a voice of god by which he speaks so in all men , that there is no need of other witness to evince it , that its god that speaketh ; by which he reveals his will , and that obedience which from us is eternally indispensably due to him , and abuudance more id genus , as abovesaid , then is fit or needfull here to be repeated● only the case sticks here , whether this come from god only or from christ also ( n●● as god alone , but ) as the true light of the world ? whether christ be the efficient , fountain , author , cause of this universal light , that is confessed to be in common in all men , without exception of any ( unlesse infants , and naturall fools . ) we say yea ; christ the true light of the world is the cause of all that m●ght , whereby anything of god is to be known by them , that is at all in any , or all men . t.d. & i.o. say no such matter ; they 'l fight with us before they 'l yield to that , that christ as the cause enlightens all men ; and we stand upon iohn . . out of that strong hold i. o. draws nigh in a very audacious , daring way to storm us ; but behold , as t. d. in other cases , in ipso lumine , he stumbles at the threshold , before he euters the garrison where our guard is , he yields , falls down , and flatly consesses 't is so as we say , in the●e words which are his owns christus lux est eodem sersu quo deum lucem esse demonstravimus . &c. christ is light in the same , sense as we have shewed god is light : * how is that ? thou mayest read it , reader abundantly in i. os. , , , : p. where he shews how god enlightens , speaks in , shews himself and will , and their duty , even to all men in their own hearts and consciences . but what sayes he here ? expresly thus , as god , so christ is light , not only essentialiter in regard of his own majesty , holiness , glory , but efficienter also , quatenus omnis lucis sons , &c. as he is the fountain , author , and cause of all light , he is the light of men , that is the cause of all light : so then i. o. before he comes to the fight upon the place , sides with us against i : o : and his fellow t : d : so farre , as in effect to argue thus , viz. christ is the cause of all light , there is none but what he is the efficient , author , and fountain of , from whence it comes . but there is some light in every individuall man , therefore that light which is in , and where with every individual man is enlightned , is from christ , as the efficient , cause , fountain , and author of it ; and this is like t. ds. confession , that christ enlightens every man that is enlightned at all : which is no lesse then to ●ay , all men without exception . thus far hath i. o. confessed , and fail'd in his way to the attempt , and he had as good have lain still where he lay , as ri●e up again and fall ; yet up again he gets to the text itself , and from that he assaults us , andabata●um more , blindly , and in the dark , on this fashion . non dicitur christum , &c. j. o. it is not said that christ enlightneth every man coming into the world , but that he coming into the world enlightens every man ; for which sense , besides the latine tongue , he all along assaults the qua. in , he repeats it o're in greek also . rep. itane ? is it so i. o. indeed as thou sayest ? will it hold and carry itself clearly in thy own conscience , and singly , as in the fight of god , when thou readest the words in that order , wherein in the very greek they stand in the text , without shuffling and twinkling , that the particle e●chomenon , coming , must relate to that word and substantive that is furthest of all from it in the text ; i.e. to to p●gs , and not to that which it immediately follows , and is joyned to , not only in order of place , but of construction ; i. e. to panta anthropo● ; that thou 〈◊〉 so positive and peremptory in putting that drossy guilded gloss upon that scripture ? i do not deny but that erchomenon eis ton cesmon , if it stood as neer to to phos , as it does to panta anthropon , might ( as to the syntax ) as well agree with that , as its evident by the placing of it , it rather now agrees with the other ; were it en to phos to a●ethinon erchomenon eis ton c●smon o photizei pava anthropon ; as it is panta anthropon e●chomenon , &c. i would say more then i will now , in way of yielding to thy meer will , which thou standst for , more then truth in this matter ( howbeit , even then , as thou shalt see by and by , unless thou wilt still shut thy eyes , thou wouldst not have the strength of a straw more by it toward thy cause ) but as now it is , i summon thee from the lord god , and in his name and fear , to read it o're once more solemnly , as in his sight and fear , before thou have run thy full career yet into condemnation , and see whether it sway not that way we say , and be not cogent in thy own conscience to the very contrary , as to the c●ooked construction thou makest of it ; being perswaded , that if prejudice have not already blinded thee well nigh perfectly to thy perdition , that thou wilt rather consent to the sense wherein all translators that ever i read of that text into the english tongue at least , and expositors too ( unless some two or three , who with thy self in these dayes , have happened to find and insist upon that silly sense , and conceited crotchet against the qua. ) do as one man agree to render it against thee , and with the qua. viz. that was the t●ue light which enlightneth every man coming , or every man that cometh into the world ; and if thou wilt be so blind and obstinate , as in thy malice against the truth and qua. to withstand the whole current of translators and commentators , whom thou canst not but commend above thy self ( as i veri●y believe not one of an hundred of those schollars that are yet eminity to the qua● will do with thee , for all that esteem thou would●t stand in for one among them ) yet what wilt thou get by the busness when all is done ? wilt thou gain one grain of ground against us by it , if we should give and grant thee to read it thy own wrested way , as we will not ? nay verily , though thou hast got nothing by thy naming of such a thing , but disadvantage to thy self many wayes ; yet we ( as thou shalt see ) who will loose as little as thou getrest , as to the cause in hand , shall improve it to our advantage against thee more wayes then one , or then thou who mostly makest more hast then good speed , a●nt well aware of ; and indeed , as men that meddle to mend old kettles that are fit for nought , do oft , instead of stopping one hole , make two ; so hast thou by medling this way to mend thy bad matter against the qua. made more work for thy patching self ; so that with all thy ●inking and thinking , thou wilt never fasten thy tackling ( which thou hast loosed by it ) so well , but that at last it will all drop to pieces . for first , let it be noted down upon the score before all the world , how this i. o. rather then he will not maintain his malicious ends against the qua. and the rich gospel of gods grace , and true doctrine of the universality of it , held out by them from god ( not in pretence , dissimulation , and mockage , as themselves do , saying , god offers life to all , but intends it only to a few , but in truth ) will maintain that the translators most , if not every one of them that have translated the scripture into english for the use of poor people , have done not only ignorantly and blindly , but abusively also , to the text , and to this whole nation to this day ; for if there be one english bible throughout the nation that reads it otherwise then thus , as the qua. read that text , viz. the true light which enlightens every man coming , or that comes into the world ; let him that doubts go look it ; i here profess i never saw any of our translations , which were done by as wise heads as i.o. that ever englisht it his way . . he disparages the grave doctors and commentators that himself so much accounts on ; for qui● legi● hae ? who reads and expounds as i. o. does ? vel duo , vel n●mo , some two , or none ; but none that ever i saw of any , either an●ient or modern expositors , of any nore or credit among themselves . . and so still he preaches it out , how by the doctors , scribes , and scriblers about the scripture , the poor people ● and rich too of the nation , that understand no● h●brew and greek , are abused , nosed , gulled , and befooled , being fain to be of that faith still about the scripture , and sense of the scripture it self , which is their rule of faith , as their pha●isaical● fathers are of , believing ( as they do at rome ) as their church , alias clergy believes ; who , if they happen to be out ( as they are● seldome in , unless out be in with them , as in is out with t. d. ) the people , whose eyes all , as of one man , should be , as the true israels are , zach. . . toward the lord , being towards their spiritual lordships the clergy , do all as one man erre after them , and drop together in gross with their blind guides into the ditch : and whereas all have hitherto ( following the old interpreters , who say the truth with the qua● . ) read that text thus , the true light enlightens every man that comes into the world ; they ( if i.o. may have his will against the qua. ) must now read otherwise . . suppose we should for tryals sake ( and no otherwise will we ) grant thee that the greek text , in respect of the words , as they may be construed , may equally bear i. os. construction , as well as that of the qua. and of most or all translators and interpreters hitherto , does not this then overturn the whole business thou so much buslest for throughout thy book , viz. the greek and hebrew texts , being such a sure , fixt , steady , stable , infallible , unchangeable , inalterable rule , canon , measure , touch-stone , standard , for all truth to be tryed by , and all spirits , lights , even that infallible one which gave it out , as well as any other , the infallible guidance of which thou deniest to be now in the world , or to be the stable rule , standard , or direction about doctrines , duties , &c. for verily if it be so , as in some places it is confes● by me to be so far more clearly then in this ( viz. iob. . . where ereunate may be read either indicatively , as a complaint , ye search the scriptures , and look for life there ( which is christs mind there ) or imperatively , as a command , search ye ) that one and the same phrase in the greek may bear ●ivers constructions , from which , being differently construed , according to mens meer different conceits upon them , may arise not only various 〈◊〉 ons and senses ( such as t. d. gives when he sayes , it is either 〈…〉 , of else perhaps it may be so , and the word or phrase may import so , and may imp●rt so , &c. up and down in his book ) but also such as are even contr● y , contradictory , and absolutely destructive one to another ; must not he then p●t out the eyes of men first , that makes them believe that which i. o. contends and spends himself throughout his whole book about , that not the light , spirit , word , and truth of christ in the hearts and consciences of men , nor any immediate vision , or revelation , of the old inalterable , infallible , eternal will and truth of god to man in his own heart , as he waits at wisdomes gates , at gods own mouth for counsell , is to be the rule , but such an uncertain , doubtful , fallible , flexible thing as an external text and letter , that may be , and is , turned twenty wayes , and made to stand even in one verse many wayes at once , according as men in their foolish , vain thoughts are minded to thrust it ? art thou so benummed i. o. and hardened against this truth , that the light is the rule , and not the letter , that because the quakers rell it thee , against whom thou art risen in wrath , therefore thou wilt not believe it , no not though preached to thee by thy own mouth , hand , and pen , as well as theirs ? quid cum iis agamus qui cum revera sintadeo infeliciter stupidi ut nulla neque ratione neque experientia erudiri possint , quasi tamen ipsi soli superent , vanaperswasione siderati , in contemptu eorum quae non intelligunt audaciter persistunt , atque cum comicoillo clamant , dicat quad quisque volet nos exhae opinione non dimo vebimur , ex. : s. . read that to thy self i. o. if thou canst tell how , and see how thou loosest thy ground against us one way , while thou seekest to gain against us another way by thy extortion of the text , and thy playing legerdemane about the letter . . suppose we should ( as for tryals sake again we will , not otherwise ; for our nay is stronger then thy tea , as to this place ) give thee thy own reading of that text wholly to thyself , jet's see what thou canst make of it against the ●ue lights enlightning every man , which is the thing thou denyest , and wouldest disprove by it : nempe to pan , hoc est , vere nihil ; just as much , and not a jot mere then thou had ●● before : if thou wilt not read it the true way ; ●ake it then in thy own , and make thy best on'r : the true light coming into the world enlightens every man ; here is thy reading , which amounts not to one attome more against every mans being enlightned with the true light , then if thou quietly , without quarrelling with the quakers , read'st it with them thus ; the true light enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world : for it still proves , that every man in the world , since the true lights coming into it , is enlightned by it : and all that thou thyself concludest and entailest at the end of thy tale about it , is no more then an exclusion of that part of the world that died before christs fleshly coming into it , from being mentioned in this text ; for so run the words of thy conclusion ; ( ex. . s. . ad maximam ideo partem humani generis , quaescilicet ante adventum christi in mundum fato functa fuerit , non pertinet haec assertio . ) therefore to the greatest part of mankind , namely , such as died before christs coming into the world , this assertion appertains not . repl. in which assertion of thine , thou , according to the manner of errour , which is a quick-sand that , when men are once in it , sucks them in further , art sunk more over head and eares then before , considering thy meaning of thy own words : for how beit ( if rightly understood ) there are no men that ever lived or died in the world , who had a being in it before christ and the true light of the world , or word , of which it is said , iohn . , , . it was in the beginning with god , and was god , and ( as god ) is not denyed by any of you to have enlightened all men from of old before that juncture ye count from , and by which men and all things were made , so that without it not any thing was made that was made , in which was the life , which life was the light of men , which shineth in the darkness ( even the wicked , who are yet darkness ) though not comprehended thereby . yea , to the wisdome of god , cor. . that leads men in the way of righteousness , in the midst of the paths of iudgement , that it may cause those that love it to inherit substance , and fill their treasures , was the very beginning of gods way , was set up from everlasting , and in being when the heavens and earth were founded , and established , rejoycing in the habitable parts of the earth , and delighting in , and lightning the sons of men , ever since there were men , and blessing those that attended to him , prov. . . to the end ; and in all ages entering into holy souls , made them friends of god and the prophets , wisd. . . and so thy fancy and falsity falls to the ground , who speakest as if christ , as christ , the wisdom of god , and true light of the world , did not enlighten any before that ensa●co sun as thou speakest , or appearance of him in that flesh that died at ierusalem , for he was in the being of a true light to the world , though slain as a lamb in men from the very foundation thereof , and such as walk'd in the beames of that which came from him , came up to the sight of his day , and glory , with rejoycing , as abraham and others did , isai. . and was the christ , or anointed one of god , to the doing of his work , and shewing of his will in the world , before any letter was written of him , and before he assumed to himself that outward appearance wherein he died ( or else how did moses suffer the reproach of christ in his dayes , who lived so long afore that body , ye only know him in , was born ? and how did christ preach by his spirit in noahs dayes , if there was no christ then come ? pet. . ) and was the same light that he now is to the world ; and so it is said in the text thou so much talkest on , but that thou readest it at randome , as thou dost the rest ; for it s said , that was the true light ( in praeterito ) which enlightneth ( in presents ) every man that cometh into the world , that which was the light before his coming in that flesh , that is the light which now enlighteneth ( as it did then ) every man , and that that it was it ever will be , o on , kai o en , kai o erchomenos , rev. . . he that before then was come , and then came , and is come , and comes , and is to come , from the beginning to the end , the first and last , the light of men , and life of such as will be lead by him to it , the only way for all that have life to walk in , whose light all they that hate , love death . yet if it were so ( as god forbid , for then what became of not only the rebellious part of the world , but of abell , enoch , noah , abraham , isaac , iacob , &c. were it so ) as thou sayest , that to the greatest part of mankind , to wit , that whole part ( so thy words import ) that died before christs coming into the world , which thou countest but from the period of some one thousand six hundred years upward , this saying , that the true light enlightens them , relates not : i wonder what light thou deemest then they were enlightened by , if not the true light ? for god is the true light , and the spirit is the true light , and if thy letter were the true light , which it rather only came from , yet those , who lived before that , had it not ; or were they enlightned with any accidental , false , corrupt light ? for such a one thou speakest of in the foregoing section , saying , christus est lux , non ill ● accidentalis & corrupta , de qua loquimur ; christ is light , not that accidental , corrupt light , of which we speak ; where if by ( we ) thou meanest thyself and thy fellows , tell us what light that is ? but if thou mean thyself and the quakers , what e're thou speakest of , i know no such monster , as a corrupt light , that the qua. either own or speak of , for they own and know no other light ( whatever may falsly pretend to that name of light ) then that which is pure , uncorruptible , and uncorrrupted . . however if no man till about one thousand six hundred years ago were enlightened by christ the true light , yet it 's enough for us that thou grantest every man to be enlightned by christ the true light since that time ; let them before stand or fall to their own master , the quakers call men to that light they are now enlightened withall ; and that every man is enlightened by his coming into the world at that time , thou affirmest from the text , taken thy own way , and dost not hitherto , in thy own interpretation of it , deny , though afterward thou denyest it with a witness , and t.d. too , who witnesse both to that same false sen●e upon the text before hinted at , and now to come under consideration , and it is this : ex. . s. . he horum verborum sersus est cum omnes homines essent merae tenebrae , &c. tois ( quoth i.o. ) is the sense of these words , when all men were meer darkness , and blind to heavenly things , the son of god , the eternal word , the eternal light coming into the world , sent the holy spirit to enlighten some of these men that were by nature darkness , and so was made the light of them . respondemus ideo ( quoth i.o. ) per omnem hominem non omnes & singulos intelligi debere s●d qu●s vis tantum , &c. hoc est syncate gorema istud omnis , non absolute , sed relate ad electos dicitur prout aliis locis innumeris usurpatur , &c. by every man , not all and every individual person must be understood , but some only ; all is not spoken absolutely of all , but with relation to the elect , as it is used in innumerable other places , col. . , &c. and ex. . s. . christum non amnes & singulos sed quosvis tantum , hoc est electos , luce hac peyfundere atque salutariter illuminare ita certum est ex innumeris scripturae testimoniis , & emnium seculorum experientia , ut caecus sit opporret & omni spirituali intelligentia destitu●us qui contrarium vel unquam somniaverit : that christ doth not with this divine light indue and enlighten all and every person , but some only , that is , the elect , is so certain , from innumerable testimonies of scripture , and the experience of all ages , that he must needs be blind and destitute of all spiritual understanding , that shall ever so much as once dream to the contrary . and s. . christus nulla sub consideratione lumen salutare omnibus & singulis ir dulsit . christ under no consideration both vouchsafed saeving light to a●l and every man. in these and the like expressions we have i.os. both opinion in this point , and his sense on this place , and his meaning on this clause ( every man ) and in all this t : d : joynes in one with him against the qua. both as to the universality of the saving light of christ , whom god hath ( as the qua. truly assert , according to isai. . . . . ) given for a covenant to the people , for a light to the nations , that he may be gods salvation to the ends of the earth : and the same strait-lacing , pinching , and particular sense he puts upon those most universal terms ( all ) and ( every man ) in that place , iob. . . and many others , witness his answer to r.h. who truly told him thus , the scripture sayes , everyman , and thou sayest , but some : who shall be believed , thou or the apostle ? thou makest john a lyar : no such matter , quoth t.d. i make not the apostle a lyar , for the indefinite phrase hath a restrained sense , as elsewhere in the scripture , christ tasted death for every man , heb. . . when as he died but for a certain number . and as for i. tom and r. baxt. ( which two heads that knock so hard against each other about baptisme , make but one hasty head to push against the qua. and the true light , in that book of i.t. publish't by r. bax. ●●il'd . true old light exalted , &c. many blind passages whereof are here animadverted , in which piece of work of theirs there is ( as there is in i.os. ) not only light , but more or less in one place or other all sorts of light treated and tasted of , yet little or no light at all found , but rather a meer mist of darkness ) these two ( i say ) are neither less bold , nor less blind , then the other two in their confused opposition of this eminent truth , viz. the universality and sufficiency of light or grace from christ in men to save them ( if they take heed to it ) from both transgression and condemnation , about which i shall ●et down so much of that their book , as whereby it may appear how far they are contradictory to the qua. and then shew how all of them ( who yet speak out no other then the sense of the whole brotherhood of the personal , particular electionists , that deny the general love of god , and his gift of saving grace to all men ) are therein no less contradictory to the truth : and for as much as r. baxt. is found justifying of what ever is said by i.t. falsly in that foresaid book , i do r.b. no wrong in my judging them both for it in my reply , if r.b. had not ( as he hath ) vented out his vehemency of blind zeal in his epistle so ridiculously , as to excuse such as accuse him of ignorance and errour , in words enough of his own , for which i.t. not only mutually justifies him , but all-to-be-reverences him also , as r.b. does him , and most divines do each other mutually , when they joyntly roar out their rude reasons against the truth , though they rather tear and rend , then reciprocally reverence one another , when they open at each other about their own opinions . to let pass then their unanimous impatient prittle-prattle against the qua. as popish , and promoting the papists interest , as savouring of popery , polagianism , arminianism , socinianism , page . and such like stuff and strange out-cryes , with which the clergy ever fills poor peoples minds , to the rendring of them ill-affected to friends of truth , as anti-scripturisme , enthusiasm , fanaticism , &c. having dealt with i.o. and t.d. already about that trish-trash of our being iesuits & papists , * to which i refer them all , who , eodem cum idis herentes luto , found it out to the same tune against us in that and the rest ; arminiana sunt omnia jamdudum profligata ; they are all arminius his matters ( quoth i.o. ) arminia● points ( quoth t.d. ) thus they stun mens minds , not knowing that arminius ( though deem●d and doom'd an heretick by that divine and domineering denunciation of the divines at d●rt ) was as no less learned , so full as holy and honest as themselves . letting pass also abundance of other lyes and abuses of the qua. * sundry of which call aloud for a rod of as rough reproof as the rest have had , for the backs of both tombs and baxter , among which i shall here hint at no more then that of r. b. in his epistle concerning iame ; nayler , which ( as he sayes ) is regardable , and so say i to r. bs. shame , who so basely belyes iames nayler therein , representing those words at large , wherein i.n. renounces those unclean spirits that are gone out , to the dishonour of god by many wild actions , from the unity of the truth , and light into which the qua. are called , gathered , and in which they abide , as if therein i. n. had written a recantation of all that ever he wrote against r. baxter , and others , for the truth held out by the qua. and as if i. n. had for ever renounced the qua. as unclean spirits , and ranters , and such like ; when as its most evident to any but the blind , that as i. n. still iustifies the truth and light , and all the qua. that abide in it , and to which by the grace of god he now stands a true and faithful servant , so that his recantation and renunciation , is of no other then of that old spirit of the ranters , which makes head against the light of christ , condemning filthiness in every conscience , and life of the cross , which ( however many may turn away from , as they did of old ) yet many thousands of qua. continue walking in to this day . but i say , passing by all i : t : and r : b : gross abusiveness of this sort against the qua : of that vniversal light , and sufficient or saving grace of god to all , which the qua : testifie to , they assert thus ; bax : ep : p : : their great pretence , when they dishonour the scripture , and the ministry , is to lead men to a light , or word of god within them● and this is their cry in our assemblies and our streets [ hearken to the light and word within you ] and the sufficiency of this they clamorously defend , and accuse●us grievously for contradicting them , &c. so p : : out of the principles of those men ( viz : pelagians , arminians , &c. ) these people ( meaning the qua ) have drawn , their tenet of an vniversal light in every man that cometh into the world , without bibles , preachers , church-communion , christian ordinances , to know his duty so as that he may be perfect , which is indeed the reviving of old pelagianism , or worse , and tends to the making of christian religion , if not all religion whatsoever unnecessary . sol : : : by way of complaint against the qua : they say , this is their conceit , that every man that cometh into the world , even the gentiles that have not the letter , yet have from christ a spiritual light , &c. that every one hath a light within him , or there is such revelation imparted to every man in the world , that if he would use it , he might come to saving knowledge : this vniversal light is so magnified by g. fox , that he tells us it shews all the ungodly wayes that ever a man hath acted in , with it a person will come to see christ the saviour of his soul , from whence the light comes to save him from his sin , it brings to christ , to confess him , gives the knowledge of the god of the world that rules in them that are disobedient , this light gives the knowledge of the glory of god , the true knowledge of the scriptures , its one in all , they that come to , and love it , come into fellowship one with another , out of this they are in jarrs and confusions , it lets see sin that hath separated from god , and the mediator , and the kingdome of heaven , and lets men see they must be meek and humble , keeps from errour , guile , all distraction , distemper , drunken thoughts , imaginations , and a mans own reasonings ; it s the gospel , the first principle of pure religion ; they that profess to believe the scriptures , in god , in christ , yet believe not in this light , deny christ ; and though they profess some of christs and the apostles words , yet none confess christ , but who confess the light ; that they who teach not this , are teachers of the world , antichrists , deceivers , &c. the letter , i.e. scripture is not the light , nor the word : more to the same purpose is ( say they , and truly enough , say i ) delivered by g. f. hubberthorn , and many more , insomuch that fa●nworth saith , loving the light , it will guide you to god from all men , that ye need never look at man more . and page . they i.e. qua. assert : that there is a light in every man : that this is sufficient to guide them to god of it self : that it is a rule to shew duty and sin : that there need no other teaching of man : that this is one in all : that it is the gospel . this is the main prop of the new antichristian religion , or frenzy of the qua. by all which its plain , that these four do as one man withstand and resist this truth the qua. testifie , concerning the general love and grace of god in christ iesus to all mankind , i.e. every individual man , in their above cited sayings , so far as to give them all any such measure of saving light , as puts them but into a possibility for life , if they never so well improve it , and the universality of a light in men , sufficient to save them ; or ( which is all one ) the sufficiency of that light to save from sin , which is asserted by the qua : to be in some measure given by christ universally to all men . i shall therefore address my self to a little farther examination of what the scriptures declare for , and our four divines , against the truth of god in these particulars , whose oppositions of it are much what from the same grounds , and those no other then the same that are made use of by all personal electionists , to push at that precious doctrine of the general love of god to the whole world , in vouchsafing some measure , of no less then truly saving grace universally to all , and every individual in it , or of light , sufficient to lead to life such as follow it , to each particular person among mankind , so that not any perish for want of the love of god and christ to them , or of willingness in god and christ to have them saved , or of true strivings of their holy spirit with them , to draw them from the way of death , or of light sufficient to lead them out of that darkness that destroyes them , or of power and saving grace given them from god to work out their own salvation , or of christ the saviours dying for them , and offering himself a ransome for every one , as well as any one , or of sufficiency in him to save such as come to god by him , or of true tender of life , peace , and reconciliation with god to him , or of true purpose and intent in god and christ to receive them to mercy , on condition of their repentance , or of space given them to repent in and return , or upon the account of any particular , personal p●●destination , or r●p●bation of them to condemnation per saltum , peremptorily , inalterably , before they were born , without reference had to impenitency in ungodliness foreseen , or upon any such like considerations , as our divines hold forth , but meerly through their own slighting of that love , resistings of the foresaid strivings , despising of the riches of that grace , long-suffering , and forbearance , refusing to be led to repentance by that light , and by it to come to that saviour from whom it comes , not turning at the reproofs of it , not improving the said gift of the power of god , and manifestation of the spirit given to profit withall , not putting themselves forth according to the measure of it in them , but receiving it in vain , not trading with the talent , but trifling away the acceptable time , the day of gods salvation , the day given to them , wherein the lord would hear and succour them , not minding therein the things that make for their peace , till hid from their eyes : these , and such like , as fall out only on mans part , who remains in the enmity , when god is in christ reconciling , not imputing trespasses to the world , but as the world goes on obstinately therein , destroying themselves ( whilst in god still is or was their help , nevertheless , whether they hear or forbear , live or die , be saved or damned ) are the sole causes of mens destruction and perdition , who perish not at all according to the will of god , desiring it should be so , if ( salva veritatis , voluntatis , immutabilitatis , & justitiae gloria , without violation to his iustice , truth , and purely good , and immutable will , which is , that the godly shall prosper , and the ungodly perish ) it may be otherwise , though yet permitting it so to be , when there is no remedy . chap , iii. and this , that christ died for all men , without exception , and god in him intends salvation to all , as truly willing they should have it , rather then not ( if in their own obstinate wills they withstand it not by refusing to return when he draws them ) as he truly tenders it to them , and hath of his own free love and grace impowered them , as well to receive it , if they will , as to reject it if they will , and vouchsafed them all some measure , though not the same measure of the true light , which is sufficient to guide all that follow on to know him in it to that saving knowledge of himself , and christ , which is life eternal , is from the whole scope of scripture as certain ( to him who is not blinded , with that sorcerer that could not see the sun ) as 't is that i : o : sayes ( falsly ) the contrary is certain from innumerable places of it ; out of which i argue , in proof of the foresaid truths , as followeth . argum. . if it were so certain ( as these men say 't is by their spokesman i : o : ex. . s. , . ) that god doth not savingly enlighten all and every man , but some only , i.e. the elect ; that he must be blind , and void of all spiritual understanding , that dreames to the contrary , and that christ in no wise vouchsafes saving light to all and every man , nor any measure of that grac● that is sufficient to save men , let them attend to it never to well , * then he could not say truly and honestly without a lye , * that this wayes are equall ; and as he lives he had rather the wicked should turn from his wickedness , and live , then die in and for it ; fith he might ( in a way of consistency with the unchangeableness of his unchangeable decree . concerning the death of finall impenitents ) put them , at least , into a capableness to chuse life , and possibility to come to it , if they would , as well as to chuse death , if they would , and thereby have shewed the equally of his wayes , in letting men have what they will , and as they do , yet would not do so much for them as that . but most certain 't is , that gods wayes are all most equall , so as to let men have from him what they chuse ( viz. ) life , and good , and blessing in christ the light , or death , and evil , and the curse , in the deeds of darkness , when both are set before them , deut. . . . : isai. : , : and as certain 't is that god so sayes as abovesaid , and truly wishes rather that the wicked , even those that do die , should turn and live , ( as else they cannot , ) but that they will not ; mark ezek : : throughout , and ezek : : v. : to v : . yea. o ( saith he ) that there were such an heart in them that they would fear me , &c. that it might be well with them , deut : : : with a number more of the like wishes , matth : : : luke : . luke : , . and whatever god sayes or wishes , he doth it truly and honestly , meaning as he sayes , and is not such an hypocrite , lyar , and dissembler , as t : ds : doctrine , of his tendring what he never intends . doth make him . therefore he vouchsafeth to all and every man , even those that come to perish , but that they neglect it at some time or other , same measure of saving grace , and a light sufficient to lead them to salvation . arg. : if god did not give at one time or other to all men such grace , liberty , light , and power , as is sufficient to bring them to life , if they will chuse the life , and well improve that light and power , to the working out of their salvation , when he bids them , by it , then god could not to all men render life by his ministers , nor say , work out your own salvation , chuse life , that ye may live , else my soul shall chuse your greater destruction , without mocking of men in in their misery , before that time wherein he sayes , he will only , & may justly mock at their calamity ( which is only when they have filled up their measure of scorning at him , set at nought all his counsel , and utterly rejected his reproof , prov : : ) ( si enim lumen seu gratiam salutarem suam dare omnibus deus nolit , & tamen omnes ad salutem pervenire ( sub poena ) requirit ; quid ni per talem gratiam millies mille miseros homunciones ludos facere ( absit blasphemia ) ●stimandus est ? ) nay , nor yet without horrible cruelty , absurdity , and non-sense : for as much as it is no lesse then non-sensicalnesse , absurdity , meer mockage , and cruelty , for a prince to say to a condemned helplesse malefactor that is lock'd up in chains , ready to be led away to execution ( without affording him sufficient help so to do , and with much threatening of so much the worse torture and pain in his death , if he do it not , ) ● would not at all that thou shouldst dye , chuse rather to live , shake off thy chains , run from thy guard that leads thee , save thy self , and here is a pardon for thee ; but if thou dost not take this my counsel , thou shalt be tenfold more severely executed : yea , it is against the very nature of choice , to lay two things before a man , saying , chuse which of these two thou wilt , and yet leave him under a necessity of taking the worst , and put him into no possibility of taking the other , but rather lay it utterly out of his reach , so that he must needs have the worst or neither : such choice ( as the proverb is ) is no other then hobson's choice , which is , chuse whether thou wilt have this or none . but it is certain , that god speaks in such wise , as aforesaid , by his ministers to men , and it cannot be denyed by your selves ( unless you deny your own doctrine ) for ye usually preach so in his name to all men ; yea , could the whole world ( to use t. ds : phrase in his ep. pamph. ) be brought in the reach of your voices , ye would offer salvation to them all , ( as much as ye seem to your selves to know , that god intends it only to a few ) and would say , we ( as ambassadours from god ) set life and death before you , chuse life that ye may live , god would not have you die , why will you die ? work out your own salvation ( though ye ( falsly ) believe he hath wrought but in a few a sufficient light , grace , and power , to will and de what ye calls them to ) turn your selves , and live , here is plenteous redemption for you , else if ye do not , this call , warning , tender , fair proffer , shall be to you but the sorer condemnation : and yet god neither is non-sensicall , nor absurd , nor cruell , nor a mocker of men in their misery by his ministers , till they have utterly set at nought all his councel , and finally rejected his reproof . therefore god hath undoubtedly vouchsafed a measure of his saving grace , and power , and a light sufficient to lead them to life , if they use well , improve , they , follow , ●hat eight , power , and grace , to all and every man. . if god have not sufficiently and savingly enlightned and impowred all and every man everywhere by such measure of that grace of his , as may lead and enable them to act that repentance which is to life and salvation , but some few only , i.e. the elect ( which , according to your principles too , are scarce one of a thousand in the world ) then he not only requires and commands utter impossibilities from most men , but also judges and punishes them most severely , yea eternally , for the not doing of that in their own persons , which he knows they neither can , nor in their own persons ever could do ; for asmuch as sub poena iudicii , on pain of iudgement and condemnation at the great day of it by christ , he , now at least , commandeth all men ( saith paul , acts ● . , . ) even everywhere to repent , and yet he knows , that without him and his grace they can do nothing , all their sufficiency to will and to do good must come from him , and that his grace , which in the least measure of it , is sufficient for them , and that he gath given but to very few ( though he requires of them , that have it not , to do what they only can do , that have it ) and to give it to the most he never intends it . but god does not command from most men ( though sinne●s ) utter impossibilities , and require of them with such rigour , as own pain of his doubling condemnation on them , the doing of that in their own persons , which he knows per se they neither can do , nor ever could ; for this were utterly inconsistent with that tender mercy , exceeding great love , bowels of compassion , and true good will , which the spirit every where declares god heares to all mankind , even in the fall , to the world , even in its enmity , who proclaims peace , reconciliation , good will towards men , ( an indefinite phrase aequivalent there to an universal ) incomparable love to the world , though it perishes for hating that light that is come into them , which he sends to save them : see and mark luke , . iohn . , &c. rom. , . cor. . , , . utterly inconsistent also with the truth of that professed willingness , that all should be saved , and come to the knowledge of the truth , which only saves and makes free indeed , tim. . . and willingness that all should come to repentance , and unwillingness that any should perish , pet. . . inconsistent ( as abovesaid ) with the equality of gods wayes , and the integrity of those vehemently pretended wishes of his , that men would rather live then die , and with the sincerity of those sayings , that he would gather them into life , but they will not , deut. . . ezek. . ezek. . matth. . . luke . . since ( if our dim divines doctrine were true that he gives not to all light and grace sufficient to lead and save them , and arbitrium ( vel lib●rum , vel liberatum ) a liberty , a power , to chuse , to will , to do , what he requires to work out their salvation , as he sayes he does , phil. . , . of his own good will and pleasure , to which only belongs the glory therefore , and not unto us , of the salvation so wrought out by us ) the case is clearly otherwise then go● sayes , for men might be put ( at least ) in possibility of living by such grace , light , and power , if god had given it , but he would not . and lastly , this would make god like to , or worse then pharoah himself , whom he plagued for the self-same cruelty and tyranny , even a rigorous requirer of men with many and sore stripes , yea on pain of his eternal wrath and vengeance , to make bricks without any allowance at all of any straw , fit for such a purpose , an austere man , a hard master , a tyrannical task-master ( as the idle , unprofitable servant falsly represented him ) that looks to reap where he never sowed , and to gather where he hath not strawed ; that calls , on perill of perishing for ever , for a crop of good works from those hearts , wherein he never sowed the good seed of his own word ; fruits of the spirit from such souls , into which he never sent his spirit , from whence only they can grow up ; a walking in that light of the lord , ( which is said to be given , not to condemn them , but that through it they might be saved , under penalty of being condemned for not walking in it ) when yet not the least beam of that saving light was at all vouchsafed them , but a light of another sort ( as our seers say ) which could never have served their ta●n so as to have saved them , had they attended never so strictly to it , but only gods turn against them , so as to damn them further , and leave them without excuse , and excuse him in his condemning them : finally , a growing in that saving grace of god , on pain of condemnation , for turning it into wantonness , and receiving it in vain , which was never received at all by them , because not at all given them of god , from whom the most have nothing ( say our silly sophisters ) but a certain common , high-way , insufficient g●ace , to know god , or do good by , that accommodates them that have it in their hearts , to serve god acceptably by it not at all , and therefore not half so well as the stubble did the israelites to make brick withall , which they gathered instead of straw ; which divinity of our divines yet ( howtrue soever they deem it ) is but a turning of g●ds gospel , grace , and truth , upside down , and is esteemed of him and his no better then dirt and potters clay , and is utterly contrary to the wisdome of god in scripture , which justifies him still , as accepting every man according to what he hath , or hath had , and not expecting ( much lesse with rigour exacting ) of any man , according to what from him he neither hath , nor never had ; as requiring from men no otherwise then according to what is committed to them , which is one talent , some true saving light within at least , even to him that hath least , which , if he be faithful in it , though but a little , shall lead and let him ( de iure ) into the masters joy , if neglected , shuts him out into the outer darkness : yea god calls for no more from any man , then improvement of his own money , that he commits to him to trade with , which money , if every one put into the bank , that the lord at his coming may receive but his own , with the use thereof , and increase in the same kind of grace that he freely gives , he will never enter into judgement with them to condemnation . therefore undoubtedly god hath sufficiently and savingly enlightned and impowered all and every man every where , by such measure of that grace of his , as may lead and inable them to act that repentance , which is to life and salvation . arg. . if god have not vouchsafed some measure of sufficient and saving light to all men , then its either the children of the light that believe in it , who have it not , or else the children of the darkness that believe not in it ; but both they who believe in it , and so are the children of it , and they who believe not in it , and are not the children of it , have it ; that the first have it , none do deny ; and that the second sort have it , is most evident to all ; but such children of the night , as neither believe what the letter sayes of , nor what the light it self shews concerning it self within themselves , sith iob. . christ sayes to such as were not yet the children of it , but of the darkness , because though 't was in them , they were not believing in it , but walking besides it , in the deeds of darknesswhich it condemns : while ye have the light , walk in the light , believe in the light , that ye may be the children of it , which over-turns that profoundly , bottomlesly deep , and groapably dark imagination , which is i. os. and t. ds. who in their muddy minds make no difference between the lights being in men , and mens being in it , the kingdomes being in men , & mens being in it ; whereas it was in the pharisees , who never came into it . of i. tombs , and r. baxt. also , who page . in the fift of those thirty thredbare argum. there urged by them against the true lights enlightning all and every man ( which all must come to iudgement by and by ) cloudily confound these two so distinct businesses into one ; viz. to have the light , and to be the children of it ; saying , ( with as great confidence , as small consideration ) that to be a child of light , is all one , as to be a person that hath light in him , to guide him so as to please god ; when as all the children of the darkness ( in which the true light is said to shine ) though the darkness ( viz. i. os. t. ds. i. ts. r. bs. and other dark hearts comprehends it not , ioh. . ) have , if not a letter without them , yet ( which is more ) light in them to guide them to please god ( de iure ) and to tell them when they displease him ( de facto ) as the letter does not , which shews men what they have done , should de , and be , but no men ( as the light does ) what they have done , do , and are ; but the children of the light are not all that have the light in them , for all men have it , though ill men hate it , and ( because it condemns the evil deeds they love , and are loath to leave ) condemn it , love the darkness more then it , whereupon it is , though , as from god , intentionally their salvation , yet actually their condemnation , iohn . . . . . . . &c. but all and only those who are actually led and guided by it , who are , and walk in it , as it is in them , and as god is in it , guiding them into the way that 's well-pleasing in his sight , and into fellowship and acquaintance with himself , ioh. . . . these i say are the children of the light , who are justified by it , by whom also it is justified , while the world condemn it , who are condemned by it , as wisdome is justified of her own children . therefore god hath undoubtedly vouchsafed some measure of sufficient light , or saving grace , to all men . arg. . if any have not , some measure at least , of this saving light , it must be either the reprobates that are rebellious against it , or the heathen ( as ye call them , who are in name christian , in nature as heathenish as they ) which have not any letter without , nor knowledge of christ iesus after the flesh ; for yourselves , who name the name of christ , and so think ye are christians , would deem your selves disparaged , if we should say , they have that light ye have not , and ye cannot deny but true christians that obey it , and depart from the iniquity it condemns , must much more have the gift of 〈◊〉 saving light and grace , if the rebellious have it . but the very rebellious ( though they improve it not , and so dwell in a dry land , and find not the green pastures the sheep of christ feed on , who hear his voice , yet ) have this gift of saving grace , by christ the mediator received for them , and vouchsafed to them , by the leadings of which , if they follow it , they may come to witness the lord god dwelling in them , psal. . . yea iob . . if the rebels against the light had it not shining in them in that time in which that was spoken , which ( as is generally judged , was before any of your scripture was written ) they could not be said to rebell against it : and beside , to the rebellious and gainsaying people in israel , god says , what should , or could i have done more for them , that i have not done ? which he could not have said in the iudgment of reason it self ( as much as he had done for them , in giving them an outward scripture ) if he had not vouchsafed them withall , some measure of that light and grace , which is only able to guide men that improve it to salvation , for less then so much could not put them into so much as possibility of salvation , for all their letter , and in all reason he should have put them at least into a possibility of it by a grace sufficient ( if improved ) to bring them to it , or else all he did for them beside , was little worth , or worse then nothing to them , and he had not done enough on his own part toward their deliverance from damnation , let them have put forth themselves never so far , but rather that which ( according to your principles ) must unavoidably tend to their sorer condemnation , but doing that , and putting them by the gift of his own light , grace and power , into a capacity to work out their own salvation ( whether they would walk in that light , or not walk in it , improve that power , gift of grace , or not improve it ) he would be clear of their blood , and their miscarriage on their own part , and they perish on the score of their own putting the salvation of god far from them , when he brought it nigh them , and as he might truly say , what could i have done more then i have done for them ( unless i shall force them to live whether they will or no , and so change my decree unchangeable , which is to put men again by my grace , by my son , whom i give to be my light to the nations , and my salvation to the ends of the 〈◊〉 , into a posse peccare , and posse non , at least * a liberty and power to abuse life or death , when i set the way of both before them , and then leave them , ad libitum , to imbrace which they please ) so they in all reason could expect no more , it being pitty enough to provide meat and set it before poor perishing men , though one do not put it per force into their mouths , when they are capable to feed themselves ; and if any , when they are made videre meliora , will deteriora sequi , and needs take the wrong way , which they know to be the worst , and its end to be death , when not only the right is shewed them , but they will'd , and wish't , and enabled to walk in it , that they may live thereby , as to be in potentia ad actum , to have from free-grace the power to chuse life or death , is grace enough to condemned men ; so to them that chuse to die , no wrong is done , fith volenti non sit injuria . besides , the wisdome of god it self is said , prov. . &c. to call very scorners that delight in scorning , fools that hate knowledge , and love folly , to turn at her reproof , promising more and more to poure out her spirit on them , and make known her words to them , they hearkening to her reproofs , who talks with them in their beds when they awake , and by the way , &c. otherwise 't is the turning away of the simple from her teachings , not being without her teachings that slayes them . and as for the heathen , how they have that which is to be known of god ( even enough as to their salvation ) manifest by god himself within them , and not only the wrath of god against all their ungodliness , but also the righteousness of god revealed from heaven , even by him that speaks from heaven in their own hearts , so that they both know god in some measure ( though not liking to retain the knowledge of him in them , nor glorifying him as god , answerably to what they know of him , their foolish hearts are darkned , and they given over to vileness ) but also know the iudgements of god , that the things they do are worthy of death ; as also , that life and peace from god , should be to them in the contrary , and so are condemned , accused , and without excuse , when they sin , as well as cleared , accepted , justified before god within themselves when they do well , by the work of the law of god written in their hearts ; by which , though they have not the law in letter , or a literal copy of it , as professors have , whom they will iudge , and be justified before , for all the professors boasting , if they do the things contained in the law , as it s written in their consciences , and much more to this purpose ; is so clear to them that in the light with any solid understanding , and not in their own benighted minds , and prejudiced spirits against the true light , which the letter points to , read the first and second chap. of paul to the romans thoroughout , that all the objections , to the contradicting of this truth we ( even thence ) plead against them , made by our hasty opposers , will appear to be but obulaty sticks and straws , reeds and rushes , when ( as anon we must ) we come to examine them : therefore the premises well considered , it will plainly appear , that some measure at least of that saving light and grace , which is sufficient to lead such as follow it unto life , is vouchsafed to all and every man. arg. . if christ the saviour , and the salvation of god it self , be a common salvation , given in common to all and every man without exception , so that all that will may have it , then that sufficient saving light that leads to it , and the gift of that grace of god that puts men into a power and possibility to work it out to themselves , brings it to them , and ( being not neglected , but improved ) brings them to it , must be given also in common to all and every man , else it cannot be said properly , they are in posse to it , or so much as that they may have it : but the salvation of god is freely given in common to all men , so that every man who will may have it : else god ( who means as he sayes , and mocks not most men in such cruelty , as to say to them whom he knows are lockt up , so that they cannot come at it ( unless loosed by him who yet never intends to loose them ) here 's salvation , here 's plenteous redemption for all you sinners , which i would you should all have without respect of persons ; take it who will freely , as 't is freely tender'd , else far greater vengeance shall fall on you , then if i had never been gracious to you , for refusing my rich grace and goodness which i would have had you enjoyed , but you would not ) would not utter his mind with so many strong and serious asseverations , complaints , commands , and seemingly compassionate c●mpellations , by which to take all scruples away , and put his great and true love to them out of doubt , as he does ; saying , look ye unto me , and be ye saved , all ye ends of the earth . behold my servant , i g●ve h●m a light to the nations , to be my salvation to the ends of the earth . ho every one that thirsteth , come ye unto the waters , and he that hath no money come , yea come , and buy wine and milk without money and price . hearken unto me , and let your souls delight in farness , hear and your souls shall live , why will ye die ? turn and live ; chuse life that ye may live . the spirit a●d the bride say come , and let him that is athirst come , and whoever will , let him c●me and take of the water ●f life freely . the son of man is c●me to seekout a●d save that is lost : i am came , that they might have life abundantly : ye will not come to me , that ye might have life . he hath laid help on one that is mighty , who is able to save to the utmost , all that come to god by him : him that cometh unto me will i in no wise cast out : in the lord is compassion , and with him is pl●nteous redemption . let the wicked forsake his way , the unrighteous his thoughts , and turn to the lord , for he is gracious , and to our god , for he will abundantly pardon ; he is long suffering , not willing any should perish , but that all should come to repentance , wills that all should be saved , and come to the knowledge of the truth : god so loved the world , that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believeth in him may not perish , but have everlasting life ; for he sent not his son into the world to condemn the world , but that the world through him might be saved : he that believeth shall not be condemned , but he that believeth not is condemned already , because he believeth not on the only begotten son of god. this is the gift that he hath given us , eternal life , and this life is in his son ( the light : ) he that believeth not makes god a lyar because he believeth not the testimony god gives of his son ; in him is life , and his life is the light of men , and the light shineth in the darkness , but the darkness comprehends it not he came ( a light ) into the world , and the world knew him not . this is the true light , which enlighteneth every man that comes into the world . glory be to g●d on high , on earth peace , good will towards men. glad tydings of great joy , which shall be unto all people , to you is born a saviour , which is christ the lord , the one mediator between god and men , iesus , who gave himself a ransome for all , who died for all , & by the grace of god tasted death for every man. god commendeth his love to us , in that when we were sinners christ dyed for us , dyed for the ungodly , justifieth the ungodly ( i.e. from , not in sin ) the saviour of the world given as gods witnesse to people , a leader and commander to people ; if any man sin , a propitiation for our sins , and not for ours only , but also for the sins of the whole world , in whom god was reconciling the world ( his enemies ) by his blood to himself ; not imputing trespasses to them , that will not persist in their enmity , giving out a ministry of this reconciliation , by whom , as by embassadors for god , men are besought in christs stead to be reconciled to god , who made him sin who knew no sin , that we might be made the righteousness of god in him ; the wisdome of god , that cryes out ; how long ye scorners will ye delight in scorning , simple ones love simplicity , fools hate knowledge ? turn at my reproof ; i will pour out my spirit upon you , make known my words unto you : wherefore is a prize put into the hand , of a fool , seeing he hath not a heart to make use of it ? because i call , and ye refuse , stretch out my hands to a rebellious and gain-saying people , and no man regardeth , but ye set at naught all my counsel , will none of my reproof ; i also will laugh at your ca●amity , and mock when your fear cometh , when your fear cometh as desolation , and your destruction as a whirle-wind ; when distresse and anguish cometh upon you , because ye hated knowledge , and did not chuse the fear of the lord ; for the turning away only of the simple slayes him : and this is the condemation ( nothing else irrecoverably ) that light is come into the world , and men love darkness more than light , which is come into them to save and lead them to l●fe , because their deeds are evil : but who so hearkneth to me shall dwell safely , and shall be quiet from the fear of evil . and a number more like to these , of solemn compellations , complaints , counsels , consolations , compassions , wishings , and wouldings ; adju●ations , corrections , condemnations , intreaties , threatnings , perswasions , poured out to all men , the most , even a thousand to one , of which are personally , peremptorily predestinated , never to have none of all this good , nor life , nor salvation , nor the least dram of any such grace , power , light , as may be of any efficacy , or have any sufficiency in it , but a common grace only , that hath nothing but insufficiency in it ( u●cunque et aetendatur , howsoever attended to ) to bring them to it . is all this talked out to men bolted out from it all before ever they were born , by an absolute decree , for the personal transgression of one individual man , and pre-ordained to have their portion in manifold more wrath and condemnation , for refusing to come to god when they were called , but never capacitated by any measure , of such light and grace , by which only they can possibly do ought that is required ? is all this openly , as from the true , mercifull god , meerly tendred in hypocrisie to millions of miserable sinners , to whom it's never intended , that they must and shall come within the bounds of so much as a possibility of it ? nor have so much as arbitrium libertatum , a liberty lent them to take or refuse , but he kept down under a certain necessity of perishing , contracted to them ( as is supposed ) from one single sin of one , whom they never chose to be their proxy , and representative of their persons to god , so as that they would live or die for ever , as he should stand or fall , from whose loīnes , it 's doted by our dreaming divines , that there is drawn and derived such ( by them ) inevitable damnation upon all individuals , that for want of a sufficient light and grace vouchsafed them to lead them out of it , to escape it ( as the four men aforesaid intimate to us ) the most must necessarily , unavoidably , unalterably ( as by gods particular private decree , without reference to their finall rejection of god first ) sin from the womb to the tomb , that they may , by filling up their measure , become vessels of wrath fit for destruction , and ( upon account of that personal decree still concerning them ) not so much as possibly escape the condemnation of hell ? must the most on the account of no saviours dying for them , but for a very few only , never see the lords salvation ? and yet be alwayes called upon to look to him for it , and told that christ died for them , and have the salvation tendred to them in the name of god , and be injoyned to believe he died for them , for whom ( on their principle of christs dying not for all , but the elect only , which with these men are but very few , one of a thousand in the world ) its a thousand to one whether they be of that small number he died for , yea or no ; and yet for not b●lieving that viz. each person that he died for h●m , when he died but for some , all must be condemned , even because they believed not on him , for that 's the cause of all iudgement and condemnation to the world that perishes for sin , iohn . i●hn . even because they believe not in me ( saith he ) who enlightens all that come into it : must the glad tidings of great joy , that a saviour is born , be proclaimed as glad tidings to all people , when he is intentionally sent to save but some few , and all the rest must hear the sad tiding● of a certain s●●er condemnation , then if he had never come into the world at all , because they believe not in him still , that he died for them , for whom yet he died not , if he died for none , but such a few as these men call the elect ? what a strange uncouth representation of god and christ in their great goodness , multitudinous mercy , inconceiveable kindn●ss , large love , rich grace , good will , tender bowels , incomparable compassion to the whole world , is this of these men ? what a most grievous kind of glad tidings of great joy concerning a saviour to all people is this , that he died to save one of a thousand , but a thousand to one are remedilesly , and more inexcusably , irrecoverably , unavoidably , incontroulably , and intolerably destroyed , by occasion of his dying for every man , then if he had never died for any man at all ? tell me , o ye narrow mouth'd old bottles , that vent out so much of the old wine of your own wisdome , and sent so sparingly of the new : suppo●e a thousand of you were sentenced to die , were it a way to shew the mercy of the king to be matchlesly more then his severity ? and would you count him gracious to you all , and deem it glad ridings of great joy , that is so truly to you all , to have a pardon tendred to you all on terms imp●ssible by you to be performed , but intended really but to one of you ; so that the benefit of it shall effectually extend to but one , and that in such a way as shall occasion the more severe execution of all the rest , when 't is in the kings power , if he be minded , to shew the riches of his mercy to be beyond his severity , to save . and execute but one as an example ? were the other a common salvation to them all ? but i say the salvation of god is common to all and everyman , what ever these men say , and even intended as truly , as it is tendred and proclaimed to all , or el●e god , who cannot lye , would never so proclaim it , nor his spirit stile it a common salvation , as he does , iude . . therefore much more common is that saving grace and light , which brings it to all men , and all to it , who walk in the teachings and leadings of it , or else it could no more be grace , gospel , good news , glad tidings to all people , as it is , but sad tidings truly to the most ; whereupon it is said of it by such ministers as sought to magnifie it of old , as much as our churlists modern ministry-seeks to minifie it , to be saving grace to all men , though all are not actually saved by it , tit. . . . the grace of god that bringeth salvation to all men , hath appeared ; as it could not be said to do , if christ under no consideration had vouchsafed it to all , but to some only , ( as i.o. ) and the salvation it brings in a true tender to all men were intended only to few ( as t.d. diminatively declares of it . ) yea in a word , as grace were no grace to that man to whom it s given , if it were not saving or sufficient ( he using it ) to save him . so saving grace is no saving grace , and so no grace nor glad tydings of great ioy at all to all people , as 't is call●d , though it bring salvation where it is , if it appear to be given , and to appear only to a few : besides , your selves tell vs of a common grace , which is vouchfased to all men . but friends , a few words with you , and to all you followers and fainers of this fantastical piece of meer falsity , not to say foolery , who in the night ( while men sleep ) dream out this dark and grace-darkning doctrine of divinity , which , with the abundance of absurdities and confusions that are concatenated to it , make up such an incredible kind of creed , such a braky messe of belief , such a lab●rynth of lightlesse literature , such a wilderness of wondrous wisdome , as no wise men , nor any ( but such drunkards of ephraim , as lie ( like briars and thornes ) enfolded together in one false faith , that at last they may be consumed as stubble fully d●y ) can find any other then a winding way into , nor when he is in , any other way easily out of , but that of the spirit of god , which searcheth and traceth out all the twinings and turnings of the serpent upon his rock . are you not yet ashamed ( the night being so far spent , as it is in england , and the day so nigh at hand to them that watch for it ) to appear upon the stage ( ye may well say , not without a blush , as t.d. does ) before the world , with such a gospel of glad tidings to it , and all mankind in it , as this , that god loves all mankind , wills not ( unless they will ) the death of any of them , nor of any sinners , but had much rather they should turn from their wickedness and live , and would have them all come to repentance and life , and not any to perish , but all to come to the acknowledgement of the truth , that in it ( unless they hate and turn from it , and then his justice and wrath hath place to shew it self to so many persons ) they might be saved ; and hath sent salvation among them in his son , the light of the world , and word of life ; not bolting or excluding any from it , but such as put it away from them , and thereby judge themselves unworthy of eternal life , and bath so loved the world , as to send his only son into it , to such as were else lost , and likely else to perish , not to condemn them further , but to save them ; even ( qua sic ) as lost , so consequently all men ( quatenus ipsum , ever including de omni ) from condemnation , or that , alias , to that end , intent , or purpose , that ( unlesse , against his honest , true , sincere wishing and woulding otherwise , they needs will ) they might not perish , but have everlasting life : and so loved men also , as to send his messengers among them to make universal proclamations of his large love to all mankind , and in his name to publish glad tidings of great ioy , even to all people , and the good will of god toward men ( an indefinit phrase in a necessary matter equivalent to an universal ) and to call to every one that will , to take of the water of life freely , without exception of any positively , personally , or nominatim , who exclude not themselves by their own personal unbelief of his love to them , and refusal to come , and without accounting any unworthy of his supper , but such as come not when call'd , and put not on the wedding garment , which renders them ( as taking away all their sins , guilt , and filth ) beloved , accepted , pure , and justified in his sight , as well as fit and meet to come into his holy presence , as by their own righteousnesse that they work , and not christ in them , they are not any more then by unclean things dung , losse , and filthy rags ; and send out hue and cry also , to summon all in to himself , and blown a trumpet too , even to all people to come and welcome , promising ( to the removing of all obstacles and and objects of discouragement , and giving good ground of hope to every man ) that there is mercy with god for him , whatever his sins have been , if he come in time , before the dore be shut , and while god calls , and woes , and knocks at the dore of his own heart within , by the motions of his spirit , that he will receive all comers , and though they have r●n a whoring from him , after many other lovers ( and few men will receive their wives again , that so do ) yet returning he will receive them , so that whoever comes to him he will in no wise cast out , but as he hath sent his son a propitization for the sins of the whole world , and provided plenteous redemption , and purchased salvation by his blood sufficient for them all , so that he is able to save to the uttermost , and will too , effectually , all that come to god by him ; and that it is his will they should all come also , and reveals and publishes it as his will too , expostulating very angrily with all men too , for despising the riches of his grace , for not being led to repentance in the day of his long-suffering and salvation by his goodness , telling them he waits upon them , that he might be gracious to them ; saying , o that thou wouldst hearken to me that thy peace might be as a river , wilt thou not be made clean ? ( for thus cry out clergy to all people where they preach ) when shall it once be ? why will ye die people ? i have no pleasure in it that ye should , and if any do , i delight not in the death of him that doth , but that he will , and there is no remedy , unless i alter my unchangeable will ( as i will not for mans wills sake , fith i have done so much for him already , that he may be saved , unless he chuse to perish ) which will of mine is , that the soul that sins , and turns not from his wickedness , that he may live , shall die for ever , and the very wicked , turning from his wickedness , and doing right , shall not die , nor yet have his sins mentioned , unlesse he turn back from his righteousnesse into sin again , and then be must die ; and though i forgave him before , yet he taking his fellow servant by the throat after , i must lay him up for the whole debt : wherefore why , why will ye die , turn , turn your selves and live , and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling , for i have done my part , a friends part , towards you , i have wrought in you both to will and to do , of my free grace , of my good pleasure , it wants but your putting that into act , which i of my free grace have put into your power , and your willing and doing accordingly , and your getting up , and trading with your talent and turning to the light that i have entrusted you with , and reprove your evil deeds by ; will ye alwayes resist my holy spirit , when it moves in your hearts , and be stiffe-necked , and stubborn ? turn yon at my reproof , though ye are fools , scorners , delighting in scorning , and i will pour out my spirit upon you , and make known my words to you ; if not , as i call and ye refuse , so the time will be , ye shall cry , and i will not bear you , because ye did not chuse the fear of the lord , would none of my counsel , set at naught all my reproof , which otherwise you should have found to have been the way of life : i am in christ reconciling the world to my self , not imputing trespasses ; and i have sent out a ministry to declare this my reconciliation to the world , as concerning all that 's past , if they now do not 〈…〉 and abide in enmity , i am friends , unless they will needs fight on , and fight it out with me to the last , and then they will have the worst 〈◊〉 i have made him sin , that knew none , that they might be righteousness , who are yet in their sins ; i have given him a ransome for all , and he hath offered himself , and died for all that were dead in their sins , and tasted death for every man : now then hear my embassadors that pray you without , as in my sons stead , who also himself by his spirit strives with you to the same end within , that ye would be reconciled to god ; and having those promises , and received so much grace as brings salvation with it to such as despise it not , receive not this precious grace of god * in vain ; but ●korse your selves from all uncleanness of 〈◊〉 spirit , perfecting holiness in the fear of god : i have dra●n you with the cords of my love , ye will perish if ye refuse to return . i say are ye not ashamed to go out , as from god ( in whose name yet i am sure ye never went with the doctrines that here under follow ) to publish to all people , as ambassadors from him , his so large love , and the great and wonderful things that he doth for the whole creation of mankind , saying , what can he do more for you ( people ) the he doth , unless you will have him violate his own unchangeable will for your sakes , and save sinners in sin , which he hath decreed never to do , as irrevocably as he hath never to refuse such as come to him when he calls , and hath enabled them thereunto . and yet after all this good news , glad tidings to the whole world , offers of a gospel of salvation to all people , as far as ye are able to proclaim them , then to come in with such cold comfort again upon them as this , and put such a bit into peoples iaws , and bridle on their mouths , ●●nsing them to erre , so as to go round , and tell them , that of a truth , and for truth they must take it from them and believe it as an article of their faith , as o●b●dox doctrine , that they are heretical if they deny it ; viz. that though ye thus largely tender and offer salvation from god to them all , without exception , on condition they come , and so , that if they come they shall be accepted , and there 's grace , mercy a saviour and salvation for them in christ , in whom they are all to believe , even every mothers child of them for himself , that it s there for him , that he died for him , and is his saviour ( which is the only good news to individuals , and to the universal world of mankind also for it s no glad tidings to a thousand to one in the world to hear that christ will save some one of a thousand among them , and damn all the rest , or all the rest he is preached to ( doubly ) by his coming into it , because they believe not in him , who yet was never given for them ) and this on pain of double condemnation . and though ye reveal this to them as the will of god , yet there 's no such matter of vniversal love or salvation intended to them all , as ye tender , extend , talk of , proclaim , and offer from god to them all ; but his will in secret is otherwise then ye say , these proffers are to another purpose then to this intent , that they all , or half of them either , or any but a very few of them should have it , even but to leave men the more in sorer condemnation ; though ye bid all come and welcome , yet all can't come , nay , none without god , who calls , give his saving grace ( that 's true enough ) and most can never come for want of that saving grace , for want of a sufficient light to lead them , which grace and light they want also , upon no other account , then because god never did , nor never intends to vouchsafe it them ; and that he hath a reserve in his mind , a certain secret will within himself , not known to man , which runs otherwise then his revealed wil does that ye declare , even a secret purpos ( which yet as secret as 't is , ye it seems pretend to know it , and must be babling about it , to the shaming and contradicting your selves i th' t'other ) even to give this salvation but to a certain small number in comparison of the rest whom from eternity he hath reprobated , and purposed personally upon adams score , shall go without it ; which sin of that single man shall so remain on the score with him for ever , that upon the account thereof , a thousand to one of mankind his posterity ( though yet he would ( in words ) shew himself more rich in mercy to them all , then severe to take advantage against any , ●o as to have it told thus in universal terms , that his son died for them all , for every man , the whole world , &c. ) should be left without any interest or share in it , or potential title thereunto ; and howbeit he will have them all call'd to come and lay hold on it , and promises made of life to them , on condition they come , and believe in his son , and his love to them in him , yet he so hates them ( personally ) before ever born , or doing good or evil , that they shall never from him be sufficiently impowered to come or believe ( as he could impower them if he so pleased ) nor be put into any capacity by him to ch●se the life , though set before them , as well as the death , with a chuse life that ye may live , but be left for want of a will , set at any liberty to chuse the good , under a necessity of having the evil , and to chuse either that or none , and yet if they do not chuse the good too , that advantage shall be taken the more against them to double vengeance on their heads , for that ( helpless ) unavoidable fault of refusing the good , and a quarrel pic●t against them ( upon the account of the old intended praeterition ) and so double execution be done upon them now as rebellious against the gospel of gods grace , whereby he would ( in words , alias , seemingly , though secretly he never would , nor intended it ) have saved them , and for not believing in his son as theirs , when yet he left them lockt up when he call'd on them to believe , so fast , that he knew they could not answer , and would not so much as un●o se them neither , to see if they would accept his love , believe , repent , and make use of the remedy , yea or nay , in whom also if they had all believed , most of them had ( as the case stood ) been deceived , and believed but a lye , a matter that was no such matter ; viz. that christ died for every individual of them , if they would believe it ; & ● so his wrath shall abide on them the more heavily for ever , even because they believed not the testimony god gave by his ministers , openly of his son , that he died for them , whom yet he died not for , but only for a few elect one : and so whereas god sayes , he that believes not the testimony that god gives of his son , viz. that he gives eternal life by him to every man that believes in him , makes god a lyar ; if every man should believe in him , as they all are bid , and take the testimony of the life by him to themselves to be true , either some must believe a lye ( since he died not for every man , but for some only , as they say ) or else their testimony is a lye , and they all lyars ( which is indeed the truth ) who testifie that god gave his son intentionally , but for a very few , when gods own testimony of him is , that he gave him a ransome for all. and moreover , if they walk not in the light they have to salvation , they shall be condemned ; therefore , upon the account of the highest crime of all , which light that each individual hath notwithstanding , never was salutare , so much as sufficient to guide them to salvation , but naturale , a thing that was too weak to such a business , and ( fines salutares quod a●rinet ) mers tenebrae & caeritas , as i.o. are ye not ashamed thus to ingross the grace of god , which is great to all , among your selves , and a few like your sinning selves , who think that ye shall scape , as gods choice elected ones , upon your blind confidence of it , the wrath of god , though ye are found living and dying in the same evills , and not purged from sin , nor believing ye ever shall be , while ye live here , for the sake of which , wrath must come for ever on all others , as on children of no other disobedience , then that ye live , and look to die in some degree of your selves ? seemeth it a small thing to you , o ye wofnlly blind , pitiful , or rather pitiless shepherds of this english israel ( as ye call it ) to eat up the good pastures your selves , and in your fancies feed your selves , and a few choice ones more ye count upon , that lie in wickedness , as the rest of the world , with all the fine things of the gospel , freely , fully , fairly , and unfainedly offered to all , as well as you , as things truly intended to your personally from everlasting , but to the most only extended , without any true intent that ever they shall have them , so impropriating the benefit of salvation to your sinful selves , as if ye were such whom god so indulges , as to wink at your infirmities , and justifie you in and under the guilt of them , if ye should happen ( with david ) to fail and slip aside into adulteries and murders , whilst other mens failings and infirmities of a less hideous nature , must be the faults and hainous crimes , which god will shew no saving mercy ( as not intending it to them what e're he talks ) to a thousand to one of those that commit them , & that unavoidably , upon the account of a certain inherent necessity of sinning , drawn out of adams loyns , together with their very being as men , from under which necessity god never intends to help them so far , as to give them sufficient grace or light to guide and lead them out of it , or into so much as a liberty of doing better ? and all this , before they have ever actually in their own persons so much as forfeited their share in that special grace or favour of his , that is in common offered to all men , by any personal rebellion and disobedience , and so interesting your disobedient selves still , as gods darlings in all the riches of his grace , but detruding a thousand to one , for the elect are very few with you , as little disobedient as your selves , irresistably into the depth of condemnation , preaching out that which is your mea● , as their poyson , and so designed to be from eternity , without reference to any default in their own persons , but such as is derived on them only from adams action ? seemeth it nothing to you to eat up all the good pasture among a few of you , but ye must tread down as mud and dirt , and soul the residue with your feet , and make all other people , but your pretended saints and elect ones , to eat and drink that doctrine about gods grace and gospel , which ye make no grace or glad tidings , but gall and wormwood , and sad tidings , when ye have trodden and fowled in this filthy , pudly wise with your feet , ezek. . , . by these , and the like sowrestuff , which is like colloquintida in pottage , do you spoil all your dainties ye set before men , in your pretended gospel ministry of gods large love , rich grace , and matchless mercy to mankind , & with your tenders of things to all men from god , that yet ye say god intends not to all , to whom you tender , and he by you extends them , make men tantalize , and set them all a gaping and staring after that , which yet you tell them all may not , must not , cannot have , because god purposes to give them but to a few : hereby ye make your selves , and god too , like your selves , a lyar in one or other of his wills , and a meer mocker of men out of your mouths : hereby you make your selves from god ministers of impossibilities to men ; ye must go about , & be paid largely for your pains too , to call all men to do that , on peril of eternal ruine and condemnation , which yet , on pain of condemnation too , you charge them to believe ( as truth , the contrary to which is herefie ) the most of them neither can do , nor ever could , nor shall ever be vouch●afed any ability by god sufficient to perfo●m it ; hereby do you not only coop up the infinite , saving , special grace of god into a corner , as i have shewed , but make it utterly of none effect to a thousand to one of mankind , nor through any default or defect in the particular persons , that have no share in it , but in a certain common grace that can do them no good as to salvation , only helps on their condemnation , and given to no other end , but to leave men more lyable to wrath without excuse ( as ye say ) & that on the account of adams sin only , which particular act of his , hath l●ft all men for ever under sin , wrath , guilt , and incapacity to live , without gods grace , which he yet will not vouchsafe but to a few , which upon a personal appointment thereto , must necessarily be saved , and cannot chuse , while all the rest are as personally & peremptorily decreed to dumpation ; alias , never to be so helped , but that they must lye under the guilt of adams old sin , and add new ones , to incur a thousandfold more wrath upon their heads , and condemnation , for not coming from under the old , which they were left lockt up from coming out of , and so hereby ye make god like some merciless mocking tyrant , tha● calls to another tyed to a post , come hither , with sooming pretences and promises of great matters , which he swears also he restly would have him have if he will come , and yet he will not loose him , when 't is in his power to loose him , and yet at last too , because he comes not at his ●all , pretending for no other thing then that , or else he desired not his death , but had rather he should have come , & enjoyed the good things he hold out to him , comes in wrath on the said lockt-up-man , and knocks him on the head for his refusing , before ever it was tryed by any liberty or ability given him , whether he would come , yea or nay . hereby ye make god a lyar again , on that ye draw down damnation on ●●ost of adam sons for their fathers fault , while they yet are innocent in their own persons ( for all personal transgression , ye say , is the punishment entail'd on it , and consecutive of the original sin ) when yet god hath long since said , the son shall not bear the fathers sin , whiles not actually succeeding him in the same , and that proverb be used no more in israel , of the childs teeth edged by the fathers eating four grapes , but that soul that sins only , it shall die , ier. . , , . ezek. . , . and every soul for his own iniquity only , and not anothers under the new covenant , or gospel , for that was of old , and concerning temporal things , signifying , how the seed of the righteous , that succeed one another in righteousness , are all blessed , and the whole seed of the wicked cursed , that succeed one another , not in a way of fleshly generation , but spiritual sinful degeneration in wickedness and blood : and so the blood of righteous abel , and his seed , to this day , shall be required at the hands of cain and his seed , that hath shed it , in this very generation . ye use to say , the qua. condemn all but themselves , who condemn only in order to mens being saved : but how do ye draw down to condemnation irresistably before they are born all but your selves , i.e. a few elect and chosen ones , and such saints , as ye are your selves , that never mean to leave sinning ( for how can you , when ye believe ye cannot ) so long as ye live in this world ? hereby ye shew your selves the niggards and churls , that would sain be called bountiful and liberal too , and yet make empty the souls ye would seem to fill , and cause the drink , ye call the thirsty to , to fail from their throats , and so bring tantatalus his condemnation on them ( as i said above ) before their time . hereby ye shew your selves to be the narrow-mouth'd , old bottles , that have none of the new wine in them , but are pouring out for money to men such soure vinegar and wine of sodom ( as ye have to fell ) to the setting of the teeth of god and good men on edge with your cut-throat gospel , which to the whole world , to which gods grace and gospel is to be preached , and to most of them ye preach your , so call'd , gospel to also , hath a thousand fold more condemnation , judgement , and remediless wrath and misery in it , then it hath of salvation , grace , good news , glad tidings to all , or tender mercy to every man in it , to whom you tender it , in which attribute of mercy yet , ye say your selves , god desires more to be known by to the whole world of mankind ( if man himself hinder not himself from the sight and fruition thereof , then by all his attributes besides . when the wide-mouth'd qua. as you call them ( truly ) in one sense , though ( scoffingly ) in your own , are those liberal ones , that lay not the large love of god up into a little nook , as ye do , but lay it forth in truth at large , as it is , and , while you churls are evil toward them for it , working iniquity in your hearts , and practising hypocrisie , delight in , and devise the liberal things , by which liberal things they shall stand . i say , are ye not ashamed thus to confound and contradict your selves , as ye do , upon your principles , and to bely god , and mock men as from him , and make as if he meant not as he said , and make him , who was not so bad to pharoah himself , as to burden and heighten him to destruction , till pharaoh had hardened himself ( for though god did harden him , and said he would , yet it was on the account of his seeing how he would first rebell , or swell in pride against him , as he had done all his life before ) even worse then pharoah himself , whom he destroyed for so doing , that punisht men for not making brick without straw , by how much pharoah shewed himself but like himself from the first ; but god ( as ye represent god , as walking under a cloak among men ) makes men ( if your doctrine is to be believed ) believe he loves them , and truly wishes well to them all , and yet within himself ( though outwardly saying , he would not they should perish , conditionally they be willing to come to him for life ) wills absolutely , unavoidably the remedilesse destruction of a thousand to one of them . are ye not ashamed to make god not only tyrannical , but hypocritical , and as dissembling as your selves ? and not meaning truly as he sayes , but meaning a few only when he sayes all ; to say that by every man he means some few , seeming saints only , such as your selves ; and that his meaning cannot be as his words import , and that christ may be mistaken , if his words be taken in the ordinary literal sense of them , as if there were no hold to what he sayes . and to say that gods love is large to all , and yet that under no consideration he hath vouchsafed saving light , saving grace to all , but only such a common grace as shall inevitably serve to damn them more , then if he had never given it , and then if christ had never come into the world , and the gospel had never been preached , and salvation never tendred to them ; but in no wise be sufficient to help them ? are ye not ashamed to force maintenance from men ( as ye do ) to maintain you in your mock ministry , and for running on such a sleeveless errand ( as this is to most men ) from god to all men , and to bear your charges , to the overcharging of a sinking nation for your sakes , in your message of contradictions , lies , and utter impossibilities , for so it is , on pain of condemnation to call all to come to christ for salvation , and to believe it , every man for himself , that christ died for him , is tendered truly , sincerely from god to him ; and in particular , each is to believe him as his lord and saviour , or perish , and thae he is now freely proffered , and as truly , and unfeignedly offered from god to him , as he did once offer himself to god for him as his ransome , as well as for any , and that there is this good ground for each particular man to believe it for himself ; because all , without exception of any sinner in the world , that does not exclude himself by his not coming , are freely , without respect of persons , invited to come ; and this ground also , that as he is truly , without m●ckage , held out to all , and all bid to come , so god is willing they should come and have the salvation , and to that end hath sent his son , not to condemn , but save them ; and his son his ministers , to intreat them to be willing as he is , and reconciled to him as he is to them ; and they declare from him , according to gods words in the scripture , that he died for a●l and every man , is a propitiation for the sins of the whole world , and died for the ungodly , and came to save them , and heal the sick , and seek the lost , and such like ; and therefore every man may conclude its for him , one as well as another , that can say , he is a man lost , sick , sinful , ungodly , and of the world ; and that god hath also wrought in them , of his good pleasure● to will and to do , and therefore now they must up and be doing , and work out their salvation , which if it be not wrought out , god hath done his part , and the fault is only in their own particular persons , and yet in adam too , and god is no hard master , but hath given to every one one talent at least , which if he hides , he will be cast into utter darkness , and weep , and gnash his teeth at the remembrance of it , that once he might have been happy , had he not been wanting to himself , and been an unprofitable servant with what he had , and had not in his own person still ( mark ) put the salvation from him , and hated the light and instruction , and that god requires of men but the improvement of his own , and much more to this purpose , which all is sound , true , plain , wholesome , and saving doctrine : and then to come with a new tale , whereby all the good grounds before laid for every man , that is called thereto , to come and believe upon , are utterly razed and removed , and to tell them , that though all are call'd , invited outwardly , yet an hundred to one are by a decree in gods secret counsel so secluded by adams sin , that they cannot come , nor have any right to christ , he did not so much as die for them , but for some elect ones , nor offer himself for the most , but a few , though god indeed sayes all , every man , sinners , ungodly , the lost , the whole world , and makes offers to all , where his gospel is preached , yet by all , and such like universal terms , we must understand god and christ , meaning another matter far otherwise then they say , for in innumerable places where god says , omnis , all , it s the elect only , one of a thousand he means ( so i.o. ) & 't is an usual thing for god and christ to speak words of a doubtful sense . if we object ; but it s the most ordinary and literal sense of the words , and the very letter of the words so imports . tush , tush , ( quoth t.d. ) never talk of that , man , i tell thee , 't is usual with christ to speak words of doubtful sense , so that his meaning may be mistaken , when his words are taken in the most ordinary and literal sense , and so 't would be here , if by every man we should understand every individual man , i know and confess the words import so , john . . but the indefinite phrase ( so t.d. calls it , though every man is an universal ) hath a restrained sense , as elsewhere in the scripture , christ tasted death for every man , when as he died but for a certain number , and the meaning of those words cannot be as the letter of them d●th import , for then the scripture would contradict it self , but it must be , if not in the other way in which i said it might me , then in this way as i say , that every man is not every individual man ( so t.d. ) and besides , as god intends not the salvation to all it s offered to , so all it s offered to on pain of sorer condemnation if they believe it , cannot believe it , nor accept it , and he offers it to all upon condition of acceptance : indeed , could you suppose that all would take him at his word , and accept his offer , they should have the benefit thereof ; but that must not be supposed , on pain of being heretical in the faith , for 't is not orthodox , that men can come to god when he calls them , nor accept of what he proffers , nor believe in him , whom he bids them believe in , that he died for them in particular , whom if they should believe in , that 't is so , then 't is so in deed , & in truth , that he died for them , else not ( as if he died not for sinners , qua sinners , and lost , but qua believers , which is absurd ) for men must have this first as a ground to believe upon , that he died for them , because for all , every one , sinners , ungodly , lost , rom. . rom. . while yet sinners , otherwise they have no ground on which to believe , nor can any man that does believe with any faith , save that which is but meer fancy , believe that christ died for him in particular , but as he died for all. for thus a man may safely conclude , christ died for every man , for sinners , lost , ungodly , the whole world , therefore for me : but bid a man believe christ died for him in particular , & tell him he died not for all , but for one of a thousand , the elect only , and tell him also ( as t.d. does ) the maisters know not the elect , and ye cannot assure him , he is that one of a thousand , one of those few elect ones , nor he himself neither know , or be assured of it , till after he believes it , and ye utterly take away the ground he is to believe upon , for he will argue thus rationally against you , or expostu●ate with you , to the shewing of your exhorting him to believe , to be a piece of frivolous foolery . arg. ye bid me believe christ died for me , has salvation for me , which god by you offers to me , and you call me to come to him for it , as that which , without hypocrisie or feignedness , god would have me to enjoy , being not willing i should perish : but what ground would ye have me to come upon , or of assurance i shall be welcome , or accepted in my acceptance , or of believing assuredly that god is really willing i should have it ? ans. it s sufficient for all . arg. that 's not the question , i doubt not but there 's sufficiency enough in christ to save all to the utmost that come to god by him , but what 's that to me ? that 's not a sufficient ground for me to believe upon ; many things are sufficient for many things , & to many more men then are ere the better for them ( as some greedy grandees have many thousand pounds a year , which is sufficient for an honest men to live honestly upon ; but he that shall go upon that account to feed and live at one of their tables , may for all that be likely thrust out as an intruder ) but can you tell me the glad tidings that that is for me , if so , i 'le believe it , and accept it , and come with all my heart , if you can lay a ground for me to be confident on , that i may , if i come , not be more bold then welcome . ans. all are invited and call'd to come , and call'd freely , fully , without exception , to believe ; therefore why not thou ? arg. but friends , though all be called to come and welcome to god , by you who say ye are his ministers , is this in sincerity and truth , or in hypocrisie and ●●ackage ? is god as willing as ye seem to make him , that all shall come to life . arg. yea without hypocrisie , for god cannot dissemble , nor mean one thing and say another ( though we say so of him sometimes , as t.d. does ) he is freely willing , if thou art willing , he would not have thee die , but much rather live . arg. but how shall i know that yet for my self ? does he intend the salvation to all as really as ye pretend he does in the universal extent and proffer , or to s●me only ? for some of you say , he does offer it where he intends they , to whom ye say so sincerely offered , shall never have it , but are by a secret decree of god bolted out from it for adams sin before they were born , in the guilt of which ( though he will save a few , that he may shew his mercy , live , grace to all ( as some sillily say ) to be of more extent then all his works , which few are only known to himself , and not ( as ye say ) to you and me ) he will praeterire , pass by , even a thousand to one , to perish unavoidably , notwithstanding christs death , and so i may be one of those many , for ought either you or i know , yea a thousand to one but that i am proe-ordained to perish , and therefore still i have far more reason to believe , according to those principles , that i am one of those thousands to one that must perish , and to whom christ is not intended by god , for all your fair proffers of him from god to me , then that one of a thousand elected to life by him : there 's no small odds in these two , for if but an hundred men were sentenced to be hanged , and a pardon should be proclaimed to them all , and yet such an after-clap come , that it s not intended to the whole hundred , but to one of them only , and ninety nine must be hanged for all this , and he that is so free in proclaiming the pardon , can't tell me neither that i am the only man that must be spared , i should think him a fool if he should stand pressing me to believe it , that i am he , and can shew me no evidence of it , and shall still rather believe ( do what i can ) that i am of the ninety nine , and should think him little less then mad too , if he should tell me , that if i do not believe it , that i ●●ithe man ( when yet he bids all the rest believe it too , each for himself , upon that same penalty , in case they do not ) i shall be hanged for this very thing , as he sayes every of them shall too , as the chief account on which they perish , even because we do not believe every man for himself , that he is the man , and for despising the mercy tender'd , and the large love of the pardon-sender , and such like , and that in a more severe way of execution , even with quartering , &c. whereas nor i nor any of us all should perish , if we did believe it ; now does he intend it to all of them , if so , there i may safely believe he does to me , else i cannot . ans. not so in any wise . arg. does he intend it to the most ? ans. nay , but to very few . arg. do ye know i am one of those few that he intended it to , or of those many to whom not ? ans. no not i , we are servants , we know not what the master does , not which are the elect , which not . arg. on what ground then bid you me believe i am one of the few , it s more likely i am of the many that must perish , even by how much they are so many to one more then those are that must live ? ans. all that come shall have it . arg. how can that be , when yet ye say it s not intended to all , which if it be true , suppose all should accept it and come ( as ye say all cannot neither for want of power ) they cannot have it , because not intended for them ? ans. yea , it s offered on condition of acceptance , faith , and coming , so that could ye suppose all would take god at his word , and accept the proffer , they should have the benefit . arg. but that must not be supposed , nor cannot rationally , according to your principles , who tell us all cannot come , cannot believe nor accept , for to accept , believe , the power at least must come from god , and he hath not , say you , given that , nor saving light , under any consideration to all , but to those few only to whom he intends the salvation , which i still demand a ground from you whereupon to believe i am one of , which till then i cannot believe any more then groundlesly , and groundless faith is no better then vain hope , which is fancy that will fail when men come to give up the ghost ? ans. believe only in the lord jesus , and thou shalt be saved ; believe , and the salvation is thine . arg. but that 's idem per idem still , the thing ye are to give me a ground to do , but cannot ; i should believe it , if ye can shew me a ground whereupon ; you would have me first to believe it , and then my believing it will be a sufficient ground for me whereupon to believe it , whereas i must first have some ground wherein that faith ye call me to must stand , and whereon it must be founded , for faith is not the ground of it self ; and your crede quod habes & habes , s as foolish a conceit , as if ye should tell me that a man i never saw intends to give me an inheritance in particular , when yet ye never heard him say so , and would have me believe it , yet can give me no good ground whereon to believe it , but your single say so , who yet say ye know not that i am the particu●ar man he intends it to neither , only ye have heard say he proffers it to a thousand , not me by name ; and yet for all it is proffered to so many , it s intended only to one of them . ans. if thou wilt believe it is so . arg. but is it so that he intends it to me really and particularly ? ans. nay , i cannot tell that , it s hid from me ; but this is all we can say , that he intends it to some really , and he offers it to all conditionally they believe , so that if thou believe it it s thine . arg. i cannot believe that though you bid me , nor ought neither , which you , who bid me believe it , can give me no ground for , nor evidence of , that it is so , and confess your selves you know not whether it is so or no ; that he died , i believe , as ye say , for some , and so they believe all o're christendome , and in england , and also believe mostly every man for himself , that christ died for him ; where yet for all your saying , he that believes so hath him , there 's not one of many h●th him , as your selves confess ; whose faith therefore , which ye beget many to , is mostly fancy , for they have not the salvation yet , which is from the sin , but to believe it without more evidence for it , that it is a truth , he died for me , even for me in particular , then i see upon what principles ye are able to give me , were as fond as to believe a piece of news for truth , which the man who tells it , tells me , he knows it not , whether it be a truth or no , but much doubts it , or glad tidings of great joy to all people , which the news-m●nger himself can give me no evidence at all , that it belongs to me at a●l ; but after his most universal publication of it , that he has tidings to all and every one , and would have every one believe it so to himself , begins to fall back into such a diminutive prate , or pinching publik● privication , or private publication , as , when demanded about his news in this manner , friend , a●t thou sure this thou extendest to all , is good news intended to all , is it so to me in particular , whom thou bidst believe it good news to me ? replyes in this wise ; nay , i cannot say that , i say it s to all and every one , but by those terms i mean but some , and those very few ; and i cannot say which nor whether in particular , thou art one of them or nay , yet thou must believe it , or else sad tidings will come after it , thou shalt be hanged up for not believing its glad tidings , which said news ; monger i should judge so little worth much heeding , crediting , or believing in what he sayes , that i should rather think him out of his wits , and to have suffered some shipwrack ( as our priests have done of the true faith ) of his very common sense and reason shew me therefore what evidence ye have of the truth of the thing ye tell me , and bid me believe , or else it s but as implicit faith ( as at rome ) if i should believe it , and not because i see it likely , but because ye say so , who yet tel ' me of what ye say , or bid me believe , viz. that christ died for me , for he died for some , 〈◊〉 the elect only ; that he cannot tell at all whether i am one of those elect ones for whom , yea or may . answ. we say still it is offered to you as 't is to all , on condition of acceptance and of faith , so that who believes it shall have it , whoever he is , and 't is believing evidences it to be so . arg. still ye run but in a round ( as the colliers faith does ) and say no more in effect then thus , first believe , and be confident , that christ died for thee , and then this faith and belief of it , that he died for thee , is a sure good ground or evidence for thee , upon which thou mayest believe and be confident , that he did die for thee , and that thou art one of those few he died for , and not of those many to one , to all whom as freely as to thee he is offered , not one of whom yet he died for , or was by god ever intended to . answ. but mind the condition though ; he is offered to all on condition of acceptance , so that if thou perform the condition , as most do not , for few will come , thou must have the thing promised thereon , that is , the salvation . arg. the condition ! i know christ is not only offered to all on condition , but intended also to be the saviour of all , on that condition they reject him not , but believe in his name , come at his call , and obey his voice and counsel , which god also by his truth , grace , and love , puts men into capacity to do , or not to do , at their choice . but as for your condition , i say , it 's more monstrous then all the rest , while for all your offers to all conditionally , they believe ye say it 's peremptorily intended but to few , and those few shall not chuse but perform it , and an hundred to one are as peremptorily intended by god , to be never interested in it , nor enabled to perform the condition ou which only it s meant . ye say indeed god offers and tenders salvation by christ to all conditionally , they believe in him , each man that he died for him , but what is this , so long as it 's not intended to all , and there is no such matter ( as ye say ) to b● believed , unlesse most men believe a lye , as that christ died for all , and every man ? for a man to tell an hundred condemned men , there is life offered to them all , on condition they every man of them believe it is so as he sayes , and to bid them believe it as the truth , for want of believing of which only they shall be executed more cruelly , in believing of which they shall be saved ; and then to tell them , the said pardon is really , positively , and peremptorily intended but to one of them only , and not one of all the rest assuredly shall ever have it , it s absolutely , unalterably decreed , that the ninety and nine shall be hanged , is to destroy all the ground of the belief ye would beget them to , and to carry an hundred men up on high into a steeple , in vain , aiery hopes of some glorious sight pretended to be shewed to them all , that from thence advantage may be taken , as the thing intended , for all the fair pretence , to throw ninety and nine of them down , go the breaking of their necks , and the mischieving of them more , then if they had never been so fairly premised , and so highly elevated , and but one of them be shewed the light , which to all was promised ; for the absolute decree and intent of god must ever inavoidably stand and take place against the conditional proffer of that which in the decree is not intended ; so the proffer on condition still is not worth a straw , nor any thing , but a meer mockage of men , and such a one as is before that time wherein god sayes he will mock and laugh at men , which is only when they have finally rejected what once they truly might have had , and was indeed as truly intended as tendered on condition they by their wills refuse it not , prov. . psal. . . for what god absolutely wills and intends , ever is , & does come to passe , but what he intends ( much more what he does but offer us , and tender , and not intend at all ) but conditionally , of mens standing or falling , rejecting or receiving , when he has put them into an equilibrio , for either , may be one way or another , this or that , so or so , and yet gods absolute decree stand inviolable , unalterable ( ●ut alibi ) as namely , adam when he was stated f●●m god upright ( as a stick may be set upright by a man , resolving which way it falls it shall lie , either in mire or on fair ground ) had posse peccare , posse non , god left him to his choice , intending , as to the man , conditionally , that if he fin'd , he should die , if not , live , and should have love or hatred from him , according as he did ; but as to the two states of sinning or standing , ●● is decree was absolutely unalterably thus , viz. tthat the life should be the reward of the standing , and the curse the reward of the sinning , happiness and blessing he felt in the one way , ? oe , and wrath , and misery in the other : so is the election and reprobation of god not absolute , but conditional only ( as to persons ) but absolutely without condition , and inalterable ( as unto stares , things , wayes , actions good or bad , wickedness , or righteousnesse ) so that in the way of righteousness he hath absolutely intended life shall be enjoyed , and in the path way thereof no death to any , as found therein , and as absolutely , that the way of the wicked , or of wickedness and ungodliness , shall perish , and they in it , that forsake it not ; that the seed of the serpent shall be bruised , satan and all that serves him ( as so ) and the seed of the woman only blessed . but now ( as to persons ) his decree and intent is truly ●● his proffer i● ( i.e. ) universally and conditionally to all , that as they do they shall hav●● , as they sow reap , corruption or life ; the seed is they serve , and are one with , their portion shall be , as the way is they chuse finally to walk in , of good and evil , truth or deceit , light or darkness , life or death , which are both set before them , so their end shall be without change , because ( though he would have all persons chuse life , that they may live , yet so as leaving them to their choice ) yet to this way he hath everlastingly intailed the blessing , to that the curse , without alteration for ever ( ut alibi t ) wayes are absolutely approved or reprobated , men only conditionally , as chusing the wayes , either approved or reproved ; so that while ye say god proffers conditionally only to all , but intends absolutely , that one of a thousand shall not have the benefit of the salvation , besides the mockage that is in that offer , he cuts the throat of all that comfort that is or can be conceived by it , and is also a flat contradiction to say , god offers salvation to all , which is as much as to say , pretends himself willing that all truly should have it , and yet to say also ( as t.d. does ) that god does not pretend to intend the benefit offered to all to whom it is offered ; for however ye say ( falssy ) that he in himself really intends it not to all ; yet this is true , that so long as he proffers it to all , he pretends thereby to intend it to all to whom it is offered , or else ye run on a much more sleeveless errand then before , viz. pretending that to men , which yet ye say your selves , for all your offering it in his name , and pretending to offer it as from god , god neither intends , nor yet so much as pretends they all shall have it , to whom ye offer it ; which err and god never sent you on , but ye run on your own heads , with your heels upwards , to the work of preaching the gospel , and so no marvell that ye turn it upside-down . that god intends not salvation to all to whom it is offered , and yet though he offers it , saying , look to me and he saved , my hand is not shortened that is cannot save , nor my eare heavy that it cannot hear , if your sins separate not good from you ; as i live , i would not have any of you perish , i would have all saved , and know the truth , and come to repentance and life ; i have sent my son that ( alias , to that intent ) ye should not be condemned , but saved ; and yet thereby to say he pretends not to intend it , as if all his fair proffers are not only without any intent to save , or do as he sayes he is willing to do , if we be not wanting , but as willing ; but also not so much as tantamount to apnetence of such a thing , is such a mess of propositions , as by which the propounder thereof little lesse then pretends to intend to proclaim himself ●● self-confounder before the whole world : yet this is t.d. prittle pra●le in his parcell i am yet in hand with , whose deep divinity in it i shall take notice of yet a little more as follows . t. d. i do not affirm god offers it to all men , for many ages and generations never had one proffer , tim. . last . rep. the mere shame for thee that thou deniest it , to the damning of all men in all ages before the time of christs appearance in that flesh that died at ierusalem , as thy quoting that intimates : was the gospel of salvation , because more clearly offered , as to the promulgation , then , not at all offered before ? was it , because now more revealed , then so hidden , as not at all revealed to any ages above ? what abominable grossnesse is here ? had not all the iews , and some gentiles ( as ninivee by ionah ) the gospel preached to them as well as to us , though to us more plainly , but that they believed it not ? that very text also sayes , god was manifest in the flesh , was justified in the spirit , seen of angels , preached in the gentiles , en ethnesin , believe on in the world , received up into glory : was the preaching of the gospel , en pase te k●sei , en ethnesin , in the gentiles , in every creature ( though a mystery i confess , and so to you at this day ) never manifested in any man , or in any measure at all before ? t. d. but i do affirm it s offered to more then intended . rep. then , as r. h. said , the proffer is to little purpose . t. d. yea , 't is to some purpose too as the light is given ( i.e. ) to leave men without excuse . rep. a cold piece of comfortless glad tidings , a gospelless-gospel , a merciless-mercy to the s●nf●l world , that is given not to save , but to this purpose and intent , further to condemn most of them , to leave them without excuse ( as thou sayest , and thy three fellows also ) yet i shall shew by and by , does not , as ye hold it , leave them without excuse neither ; a truth , that if it were so ( as thou sayest it only ) were a belying of god , as r.h. truly told thee . t. d. no , for he pretends not to intend it to all to whom its offered , the election obtains it , the rest are blinded ; and beside , he offers it on condition of acceptance to all ; and could ye suppose all would take him at his word , and accept his offer , they should have the benefit . rep. but that must not be supposed from the principles of thy personal election of a few , and blinding all the rest from the very birth , nay cannot be supposed ; thou shouldst say could , suppose they could take god at his word , and accept ; for , by thy principles and i. os. of denying the saving ability so to do , the most , they to whom it 's not intended can no more accept or believe , then 't is possible , if they should believe , they should obtain that which they are personally and absolutely reprobated from so long before : for if god do not , will not give , hath not given , as ye say he hath not , some measure of the saving grace , whereby to believe and accept it , to all whom he offers life to on that condition of acceptance , but calls , and requires them to believe and accept , what he knows they cannot without him , this makes him as much a mocker of men still , as such a merciless tyrant and arrand hypocrite , as shall stand aloof off from one hungry , that is lockt in the stocks , with a dish of meat in his left hand , and a pole-axe in his right , saying , why wilt thou starve thou self-murdering man ? come to me , and here is meat for thee , i am freely willing thou shouldest have it , and not perish ( never coming neer to unlock him all this while , nor bringing the meat within his reach ) but if thou wilt not come i will knock thy brains out ; and so because he comes not , when yet he knows he cannot , runs on him , pretending to do just vengeance on him for his wilfull refusing his own help , when he might ( alias , never might ) have had it , and cuts him to pieces indeed : for he that on pain of punishment , death , and condemnation , if the terms be not performed , tenders life and salvation on termes and conditions utterly impossible to be , or ever to have been performed by the person to whom the tender is , unless a grace be given him , which yet never shall be , is an hypocrite and a tyrant , ( and such a one ye make god by your doctrine , who yet is no such , but that ye belie him ) as such as he that shall say , he truly desires to make me his heire , and so tenders me a good estate , conditionally i will take a journey to the man in the moon first , to get it confirmed there , when i come back again , but if i refuse to go thither he will kill me , and so because i cannot climbe up to the moon , falls on me , and puts me to death indeed . arg. . moreover , gods offer of salvation to many , to whom he intends it not , on conditions he knows they cannot perform without him , and yet not so much as enabling them all to perform them , when he might , but some few only to whom he intends it , makes god a respecter of persons , as r. h. truly said of it , when yet god is no respecter of persons , as the scripture saith , but in every nation , men that fear him , and work righteousness , are accepted with him , and not otherwise . t. d. to that of making god a respecter of persons this answer will suffice , did god give salvation to some , who accept not of it , out of particular fancy to them ; but exact of o●hers that acceptance , and for default thereof deny them salvation ? then there might be some ground for the cavil , but now that its offered upon equal termes there is none . rep. does not god upon your blind principles of personal election , or loving of a few , out of a particular fancy to them , and peremptory reprobation , and hating the most of mankind before they were born , without respect to foreseen good or evil to be done in time in their own persons ( excepting the respect to adams sin , which the sublapsarians prate of against the supralapsarians , whose blind wranglings , whether election be ex massa corrupta , or pura , are not more wearisome & toilsom , then they are both no●some and loathsome to look upon , by any that love and know the truth , give salvation to some out of fancy , who accept it no more then others ; but as he ( as you say ) makes them to do it by an irrestible power , which he denies to the other ) and exact of the other that obedience he enables them not to , and that for default thereof , not only deny them the salvation , but also damn them down into double condemnation ? does not god do so , i say , according to your principles ? and if so , then is there not a ground by thy own confession , for that assertion thou call'st a cavill , i.e. that god by your doctrine is ( doctrinally ) made a respecter of persons ? and whereas thou sayest , salvation is offered to men on equall termes , and therefore there is no ground to assert god a respecter of persons : i say , 't is the truth we hold indeed , that 't is on equal termes tendered to men so far , at least , that till some put the word of life from them , and the salvation that is sent to them , so making themselves unworthy of it , when others receive it , it is so brought by christ the light , that the whole world might be saved as well as some of it , iohn . . iohn . . and where it is offered , there are none to whom it is not as sincerely intended ; on condition of acceptance , as it is to some , and so god is in truth no respecter of persons . but darest thou say , and is it not a contradiction to thy self for thee t.d. as thy principles are , to say salvation is offered on equal termes , who saidst above , that among those where the gospel is preached , salvation is offered to more then to whom it is intended ? if it be truly intended to any one , and not truly intended to every one to whom it is offered , but it is ( for all the fair offers ) absolutely decreed a few shall have it , and shall not chuse but perform the condition of it , which is acceptance ; and as absolutely decreed that the most shall never be enabled to perform the said condition of acceptance , which is exacted of them , and so shall unavoidably go without it , are these equal termes ? is not this offer upon as unequal termes , as if a man should tender to two condemned prisoners bound up in chains , that they shall both live , if they will come out of prison , but if not , they shall be more cruelly executed for refusal , intending to unlock one of them , that he may come forth , and to light , lead , and compel him irresistably to come forth also , that he may have the benefit of the pardon , and live ; and as absolutely intending to leave the other lock'd under restraint in his chains , utterly devoid of any liberty to come forth , to the end that he may cut him off from any benefit of the promised pardon , and take double vengeance on him for non-acceptance thereof ? and are these equal termes ? are these wayes so equal as god sayes his wayes are ? ezek. . who absolutely wills not the death of any that are as willing to live as he would have them , and that do not wilfully die for want of turning from those iniquities in which they cannot live , and from which he impowers them to turn , but that they refuse it , as well as leaves them to chuse death too , if they will neees have it ? who sees not the foolish frivolousness , and self-contradiction of t.ds. divinations ? t. d. and for christs being given for salvation to the ends of the earth , that imports not so much as that the offer , much less the benefit should be of such extent in all ages and generations , as the fulfilling of that prophesie bears date ; from the apostolical commission , ma●th . . . and it intends that no nation , how remote soever from judea , should want the offer , nor some of it the benefit of salvation . rep. see how unsound iudgements jump together , christs coming a true light into the world to enlighten every man in it , i.o. ( as is seen above ) dates but from about the time of his appearing in that person , that years since died at ierusalem , and his being a light to the nations , and gods salvation to the ends of the earth , is dated from much what about the same period , according to t.d. his calender : but as for the extent of his light and salvation , which is said to be to every man that cometh into the world , and to the very ends of the earth ; this is extenuated by them both into an extreme little compass , in respect not only of time and seasons , but of places and persons also ▪ for first , as here is a cutting off of all ages and generations before the apostolical times , by both i. o. and t. d. from any benefit from christ and his light , and from any interest in his salvation , and of all nations for years together , as it were by the lump and wh●le sale , unle●s happily they except the little nook of the iewish nation , which ( saving a few that walk't with god in the light of christ , as some in other nations al●o did ) was , in moralities , well nigh as wicked generally as any people , yea , to the justifying of her sister sodom it self . and secondly , even of these last ages , since the said appearance of christ in flesh , the major part , by thousands to one , are , in the doctrine of our divines cut off , not by their own obstinacy and rebellion against christs light ( for so we say most are without the benefit justly enough , for hating and not coming to christs light in their hearts , which else would save them ) but by god himself , for want of his vouch●a●ing them such a light , as , if improved , is sufficient to salvation ; for if all nations have the offer of it now ( as in an outward ministry they have not had since christ , nor yet have , there being not a few at this day to whom the outward news of salvation is not come by any outward ministry , and therein t.d. is also out in his accounts ; yet where the offer is , there 's not one of many ( according to these two men ) that have so much grace ever given them of god , whereby to be in capacity to lay hold on it because it s intended but to few , even of such , and so the offer is but a meer mockage still , all have not the offer , and of such as have that , but few the benefit of the salvation , because not intended , though rendered to them , and they not put in possibility for it for want of saving light , or sufficient g●ace to accept it , or to perform the condition on which its rendered ; and so as universally as is talkt of in scripture , in terminis , as belonging to all , yet by the restrained senses they put on these universal terms , as some , a few , the elect , & ● . it s not one of a that can have the thing , or are intended by god to have any share in it . but o ye niggards and churls , that are called by the name of masters in israel● is the spirit , and saving light , and saving grace , saving health and salvation of the lord thus straitned and limitted , as ye limit them ? are these his doings ? doth he mean as ye say he does , when he sayes all , every man , the whole world , and not rather as he sayes himself ? are not the●e your doings , thus to pervert the right words and wayes of the lord ? and with your narrow senses to distinguish the most infinitely immense mercy , and incomprehensibly large love of god to all mankind , and every individual person thereof , that does not first personally slight and sin against it , and so pull more misery upon themselves , into such a diminutive matter , as amounts truly , seriously , and intentionally , to the redeeming of some one of a thou and from misery , to no more then a meer making of a thousand to one more miserable , then if he had never sent the news of that mercy in christ , and a most cruel mocking of those individual persons in that ( as to them from the first ) remedilesly derived and decreed misery also ? is this the glad ●●dings of joy to all people , and all mankind , that by their own neglect do not loose their share in it , to tell them by general proclamation , that there 's salvation and life for them all in christ without exception ▪ and its offered on equal terms to them all without respect of persons , and then to tell them after , that this salvation , which is so infinitely sufficient for all , is intended but to few among them , and those are ye know not which ; and these few shall assuredly partake of it , and many to one shall as assuredly never see it , nor be made capable to come to it by any light sufficient to lead to it , though never so well attended to , because it was never intended to them , but from all eternity the very contrary was intended , and irrevocably decreed , as conce●ning their particular individual persons , that they shall perish for , and not be one jot the better for that salvation , do what they can by the improvement of that light and grace they have from god , which is only common , and not saving , nor able to help them , and god in no wise will help them to more , but leave them helpless , that the salvation may pa●s by them to the few to whom its intended , and be ( as to the rest only ) as a means to make them liable to more wrath for their refusing it , and more without excuse in the midst of that misery too that 's encreased by it ? is this your g●spel of gods infinite grace to all men in christ , that very few shall be saved , but unavoidably , by any thing that god will ever enable them to do to the contrary , most men , perhaps a thousand to one of those to whom it s offered shall be according to gods unchangeable and personal decree concerning them in that kind , doubly damned by christs coming into the world , of whom ye shameless ones do you not hear god say , he sent him not to condemn , but to save the world , which yet through the despising his true grace , and hating his ( saving ) light when it s come to them , are ( his love notwithstanding ) the more sorely condemned ? is this good news to an hundred , to hear that one of them shall be highly preferred , and none shall hinder it , but as uncontroulably his rise shall be the ruine of all the rest , and and an occasion whereupon the ninety nine shall come all to be hanged ? ye fools and blind , is this your liberal , universal rich gospel to the whole world ? o ye graceless , ungod-like , ungospel-like gospel ministry of england , and vniversities of the same , about which there is such ado among the powers , parliaments , armies , and their generals courts committees , cities , and their common councels of late , that ye may be so richly , liberally , and universally maintained in your private promulgations of it , not far from your own fire sides , much less so far as christ gave commissian to his ministers to publish his gospel going out into all the world , all nations , every creature , the ends of the earth ; but like gospel , like minister of it , a private particular , publication of it for pay , and impiop●iations by each preacher in his private particular parish , or place of preferment , is most proper to such an impropriated , private , particular gospel as yours is , whose care is more , according to the provision the earthly powers , that are bewitcht by you , make for you in that particular , to make augmen●●tion of your own means in the earth , then an augmentation of gods true gospel so far , as to all ends of the earth , by exposing of your own persons to the pains , and weariness , and travels , and hazards , that many of christs servants have gone through , and some even in these dayes for the sake thereof , or for the sake of your non gospel either , which yet sith 't is your own , and another then that which paul and others then preached , it s no great matter ( for a private preaching of it is fittest for it ) whether it go so far , yea or nay , as to the ends of the earth ; and indeed much farther then it has gone it must not go , neither in respect of time nor place , and no great ma●vel , for pauls anathema is entail'd to it , and the folly of i● is beginning to be made manifest unto all men , as theirs also was , t●m . . even iannes and iambres , who of old withstood moses and the truth : if any man judge me too long in this business , let him excuse me if he please , or if not , let him chuse , i matter it not , for i here honestly profess the doctrines that are entail'd on each other ▪ in this matter of particular election of a few , and personal reprobation of most men by god , from both salvation , and all possible sufficient means of it , either upon , or before adams fall , without reference to personal good or evil first performed , or committed , do hang so together ; like some tangling bushy brake of b●yars and thorns , to the cumbring of the ground where the truth it self should grow out , and are such a wild wilderness of contradiction and confusion , that being , by the way whereinto i. o. and t. d. dark distinctions have driven me , once entred into it ▪ i cannot easily on a sudden find any way out of it again , and must walk yet a little further , before i can be so clearly quit of as i desire to be . i. o. sayes , that it s so certain , from innumerable places of scripture , that christ hath not savingly enlightned all , but some only ; that he hath no spiritual understanding who once dreams to the contrary ; whereas i say , he hath yet no more then a meer mysty ●nsight into the mystery of gods love in christ to the world , who limits it only to a few : i know the scripture from one end to another , yet i know not so much as one place wherein there 's the least hint against the universality of his sufficient ( g●ace●to all , 't would have been more to my satisfaction , had i. o. named but one testimony of scripture , and directed us to it , then to give us intimations of innumerable texts , and testimonies to that purpose ▪ and set down not so much as one , which till he doth , i shall be so bold as to tell him ; there is not one at all of any true tendency that way , but very many more , besides those above-alluded to , which evince the universality of christs death , the commonness of his salvation , the generality of sufficient light , grace , and of the gift of his righteousness unto all , and upon a● , as they believe , without difference or respect of persons , rom. . . . . . pet. . . the usual common silly shifts , and pedling put offs , that are made against those texts which speak in universal terms , are that by all , all men , every man , every creature , the world , all the world , the whole world , not all and every one indeed is meant , but some , the elect only , which t. d. calls few in comparison of the rest , all manner of people , not jews only , but gentiles also . so j. tom. and r. baxt. p. . . the senses in which christ mediator enlightens with spiritual light every man that cometh into the world , john . that text may be understood of this light two ways : . all who are enlightened with spiritual light : . all sorts and nations of men , gentiles as well as jews , not singuli generum , but genera singulorum , some in all nations , some iews , some gentiles , and among the gentiles some barbarians , some scythians , some englishmen , some french , some turks , some tartars , &c. not all in every nation , not all of every sort , but some of all sorts , some kings and men in authority , some under authority , some rich , some poor , some masters , some servants , &c. not the whole globe , or wheel of the world ; but i.os. whimsie , or wheel within a wheel , that is his church , or as others , mundus electorum ex mundo electus : this and such like is the narrow strict , restrictive rattle of i.o.t.d.i.t.r.b. and the rest of that fry , whose restrained senses of so universal terms , let us reason together about a little . rep. . is it so indeed friends , that these so eminently comprehensive terms , all , everyone , &c. signifie no more then some , a few , &c. as aforesaid ? is this syncategorema istud omnis , the con-signification of that adiective all ? is it so as i.o. sayes , per omnem hominem , non omnes & singulos , sed quosvis tantum intelligi debere , that by all and every one , we ought to understand not all and every man , but some only ; all not absolutely , but respectively to the elect ; which are but few ? this is more then ever i could yet understand since i left off to be ( as ye are , and will be more ere long , if ye go on to fight against the light ) without understanding to this very day . to say that all may signifie many ( as many is sometimes expressive and truly conclusive of all , and not exclusive of any ; as rom. . . . ) is much better to be born with ; but that all , or at least that every man , which is more indigitative of every individual without exception , should be said to signifie , not so much as the major , but the minor part of men : this is one absurdity more then i ever learnt before from any , but the unlearned labours of your selves , and such as side with you in your silly-come-sensless senses upon the scripture . . if it be no absurdity but usual and proper to intend , not all men , nor ill men , which are the most ; but the elect , a few good men only , by those terms all men , every man , all the world , &c. and not every individual ( prout innumer is aliis locis usurpatur● as it is used ( quoth i.o. ) in innumerable other places ) then i shall the more willingly excuse him , who shall interpret those texts , viz. rom. . . . . . . . rom. . . gal. . . and many more texts ( which must be some of i.os. numberless number , there being not innumerable places besides them ) that speak of all mens being gone out of the way , &c. all mens having sinned , and falling short of gods glory , dying in adam , &c. all the worlds becoming guilty before god , &c. all believers being justified , all saints honoured , &c. also such places as speak of gods being avenged on all that obey not the gospel , thes. . and such like ( respectively ) not of all and every man , every believer , every saint , every rebel , against the gospel , but of some few , a few believers , a few saints , a few rebels against the gospel , which were an absurdity unsufferable , if not no less then madness in the abstract . but i.o. that he might at least insanire cum ratione , in proof that there are innumerable places besides , iohn . . where these general terms are so restrained , makes a shift to produce one , which is as much to his purpose as one can be , that over-turns it , that is col. . . where paul sayes the gospel is come into all the world , by which term all the world , i.o. understands not all men , but the elect only , heeding as little , as he does other matters , that the same apostle in the same chapter , ver . . speaks of the same gospel in the same way as here , that it is preached , en pase te k●isei , in every creature that is under heaven . so that the th ver . which is i.os. instance , doth by ( all the world ) intend the same subject as he does , by the term ( every creature ) which is not such a pi●●a●●● , as the elect only ; for then the absurdity would be no less in these two verses , then it would be so to interpret it in mark . . . where both these terms stand together ; and how gross would it be when christ sayes to his messengers , collectively considered , go out into ( all the world ) and preach the gospel to , or in ( for there 's no preposition ) ( every creature ) he that believes shall be saved , &c. to read and render these general terms not absolute ( as i.o. sayes omnis must not be ) but relate ad electos , with reference only to the elect ▪ a fool may see : for as i shewed above from iohn . . of the word world , so may i much more here shew from the word ( all the world ) the folly of them that will have it signifie no more then the elect , it being then to be thus read ; viz. go out unto the elect , and preach the gospel to every elect one , whoever in all the world , that is among the elect , believeth , and is baptized , shall be saved ; but whoever among those elect ones , believeth not , shall be damned : here 's i.os. syncategoremaistud ( omnis ) yet surely , as far as both he and t.d. are from holding the gospel to be intended by god to any , but those few they call the elect , neither of them is such a niggardly churl , but they are both rather so free as to have the gospel ( excepting ever what large pay the preachers must have for it ) very freely offered from god to no less then all ; whether this be any of those innumerable places i.o. means , when he sayes the word omnis , all , is so used in them , or not , i know not ; but here 's the same terms , every creature , and all the world , as are used in that col. . . . which he alludes to ; and if this be not one , i doubt his number will come short of numberless ; for at present ( as i shall look no further ) so i mind no more then one place , where the same term of ( all the world ) is used ; viz. rom. . . where it s said , all the world is become guilty before god , which if i.o. read non absolute , but relate ad qu svis tantum ; that is , ad electos , excluding all the rest ( as he does the worst from the grace of god ) so as to say a few of the world only , that is , the elect , are become guilty before god ; then let 's eat and drink , that we may live and dye reprobated from god , and so become guiltless , ●ith none but his elect become guilty before him , who are of all men then indeed most mi●erable . and as i.o. so t.d. seems not to dote without at least some seeming shew of a reason for his most impossibly proper sense of that term , every man that cometh into the world , john . . by which r. h. truly told him he makes john a ly●● , and so say i too , while he understands it of but some of every nation , and those so few , that page . pamp. he stiles them a small number in comparison of the rest who are not enlightned , t.d. no such matter ( quoth he ) i make not the apostle a lyar , for the indefinite phrase hath a restrained sense , as elsewhere , heb. . . christ tasted death for every man , when as he died but for a certain number . rep. to which i need say no more among wise men , then to tell t.d. that if he over-shot himself unawares in saying ( every man ) is an indefinite phrase , let him only fetch back that bolt of his which was so soon shot , and i shall freely give it him again , and there 's no harm done ; but if he shot it not in hast , but wittingly , 't was with so little due deliberation , that ( as brief as he is , page . . pamp. to take on him to teach g.w. who in things of god may be his teacher ) he had need to be taught again ( notwithstanding the flourishing his title page with m.a. ) by such as hold it fitter to forget , then to teach others any of that tyruncular kind of learning , that ( man ) and ( men ) are indefinite phrases in such necessary matters , are equivalent to an universal , though in some contingent business they are aedaquate only to a particular ; but as for omnes homines , omnem hominem , quoseunque unumquemque ( all men ) ( every man ) and such like ; these are so far from being but indefinite , as hominem , quosvis homines a●e , that they are the most express universal terms that can be spoken ; yea , nothing is more universal , according to the very litteral sense of the words , then vper panton anthropon , panta anthropon ercomenon eis 〈◊〉 : for all men , every man that cometh into the world ; these , specially this last ( every man ) is so indigitative and absolutely conclusive of each individual , that it is not at all exclusive or exceptive of any at all ; and if every man ●n the wo●ld be an indefinite phrase ( as t.d. ayes ) i know none is universal , for all is not ( if it be so much ) more comprehensive , then that , of all without exception ; and if ( as he sayes ) every man that cometh into the world , be but some , a few of every nation , kindred , tongue and people , then i 'le read and render ( by the same rule ) the word every , as affixed to nation , tongue , &c. so restrictively too ( for who shall forbid me ? t.d. of all men can't ) thus ; viz. every man of every nation , that is , only some , a few men , of a few nations , ●f a few families , tongues and people , and then i 'le carry the boundl●ss grace of god , and incomprehensible light of christ , into a small compass , and diminutive corner of the world indeed . but t.d. perhaps deems se imperatorem esse , and so may leges dare , non accipere ; for when we use any term in a sense that troubles him , then the phrase imports otherwise ( quoth he ) the words intend so or so , it must bind and be cogent to us , saying when he sayes rex sum , sic volo , sic iubeo , nil ultra quaero plebeius ; but when we tell him , as we do in this , the words import otherwise , the very literal sense of them cannot be that , then he tramples that down : tush ( quoth he ) the meaning of those word ; cannot be as the letter of them does import , for then the scripture must contradict it self ; it was an usual thing with christ to speak words of a doubtful sense , his meaning may be mistaken , when his words are taken in the most ordinary and literal sense , and so it would be , if , by every man , we should understand every individual man. rep. where note , first , that t.d. yields , that the most ordinary and literal sense of ( every man ) is every individual man , and that the letter of those words , every man , iohn . . does indeed import no other then we say against t.d. and i.o. viz. that the true light , which is that of christ , enlighteneth every individual man that comes into the world . and so secondly , to the contradiction of himself , who so calls it , that every man is not an indefinite , but an universal phrase , and so cannot have such a restrained sense as in some cases , not all , an indefinite expression may , for mostly an indefinite it self is equivalent to an universal ; and if it be taken according to the proper import , ordinary , and literal sense of it , it is to be read every individual man. . that in those three places , iohn . . heb. : . cor. . . christ enlightneth , tasted death for every man ; died for all : the letter , and the true , proper , genuine , ordinary , and litteral sense , which the words all and every man import , is on the qua. side , by t.ds. own free , or rather forced , confession ; and ( whether they , who fighting and scoffing at the light and spirit within , which only reveals it , know it not , or will grant that or no ) we know that we have the true meaning and mind of christ. . what hath t.d. and i.o. left then on their sides to help themselves with ? nempe velle suum cuique est nec voto vivitur uno ; every man his own will , even what opinion he pleases : quot homines , bis tot s●ntentiae ; as many more minds , as men , for they do not both in every thing fain the same , nor doth each of them fancy the thing at all times alike , but is at odds about it within himself : i.o. hath two shifts , as i have shewed , but never a good one , to slide away by , but one of which t.d. shuts in with : t.d. hath three , two of which ( as short as they are of truth in his own intent ) extend far enough , as is said above , to give the cause contended for to us ; and the third , which is i. os. also , hath nothing to say for it self , but that it 's a wresting and restraining the phrases all and every man , besides their ordinary literal signification and import ; it cannot be , as the words and letter of them doth import , therefore it must be in this or else that sense , which the letter of the words does not import ; somewhat they would say , but they cannot tell what ; somewhat it is , but no matter what , so it be not the right meaning , or true literal sense ; in a word , all they have to trust to is , their own muddy meanings , foolish figments , false 〈◊〉 , unccuth imports on plain phrases , which none ( but that some will ) need at all to mistake , which who is such a fool , as to be taken with the ●oy●shness of them , may take , and who will not , may safely let alone , and every wise man will feel to be foolish , and every reasonable man will refuse as so . . 't is to be noted , that when the proper , ordinary , literal sense of any words do but seem to tend toward their own turns , our divines insist much upon that intent and purport of them , though they will needs make them mean another matter then they intend , or truly import , when the true interpretation of them over turns and thwarts the tenure of their false doctrines , and so rule o'●e their rul● as they list , according to their own unruly will , and lay out the letter , like a piece of lead into what shape , sense , or form seems good to their own lewd , lesbian , or petulant fancies ; and when it does not ●●and handsomely to their particular private purpose one way , they set it another , and sometimes two or three wayes at once , not determining which it is , but saying , it s either this , or that , or both : so io. tom. and r. bax. page . . that text , iohn . . may be understood of this light two wayes : . all who are enlightned . . the other sense is , all sorts and nations , &c. but not that of the qua. though the letter it self imports it : but page . pamp. both meanings are the holy ghosts , the phrases will bear either senses , and either of them cross the qua. interpretation ; and when they deem they can make any use to help their crazy cause , by the literal sense and import of the words , then they will have that ; and so what a deceitful deal of-do there is with t.d. about the import of the words , a very boy may behold up and down in his two trisles , page . pamp. that expression , luke . . may import , that the kingdome which the pharisees did upon a mistake look for without them , was indeed ( mark ) a kingdome within them . here it seems t.d. unawares , thought the import of the expression would have served his turn , and was mistaken , it serving the qua. for truth , whereupon upon second thoughts ( as he sayes ) gives another , which he judges the most genuine interpretation en vmin among you ; so the preposition may be rendred ( quoth he ) when as there 's no such preposition at all as en in that text , it being entos vmon , as is shewed above . so page . the phrase doth not import the perfection of any on earth ; that likes him not it seems , but else the phrase imports it well enough , for he sayes , ye are come to the spirits of just men made perfect ; as it s said , the saints are all to come up to the measure of the stature of the fulness of christ , heb. . . eph. . so page . perhaps the clause should b● referred to sanctification , cor. . . or else it may be meant of the spirits application , forte ita , forte non . so page . pamp. as the apostles expression is ( there he is for the import of the expressions ) so page . pamp. the expressions of freedome from sin , do not note freedome from the being , but dominion of sin . page . pamp. as for the phrase in your hearts , it imports but the same with that expression , the eyes of your understanding being enlightned . page . doth not commit sin , that cannot be meant of freedome from sin , but either there is an emphasis in the word sin , intending under that general term one kind or sort of sin ; i.e. the sin unto death , or if not in the substantive , then on the verb poiei , which notes to make a trade of sin , ( as the priests do , who preach sin up , and down for money ) so somewhat it is , if they could tell what , and no matter what , nor where the emphasis lyes ; whether we can distinctly tell , yea or nay , so we may keep that doctrine of sufficient grace against sin to all men , and that danmable doctrine of devils ( that is , of not sinning any more which the qua. teach up among men , from taking too much root , and bringing forth fruit to perfection of holiness ; that spoils all their ●●ading as well as the lawyers , which stands but upon mens trespasses and sins , if once men come to leave sinning , and hating , and envying , and stealing , &c. and come to live in love , innocency , honesty , and peace , that marres their ministry ; therefore they 'l beware of that leven however , which will sowre all the sweet success that they have from generation to generation , into the popish preferments of their deceased predecessors , if that way be shewed how to live without sin , it turns their rich trade of preaching down sin , and talking against sin , up by the roots ; and therefore , though their trade is for money to declare against sin , yet they must preach it up , and talk for it a little too , and do their work not too hastily , all at once , left there be no more work for them ere long to do , but such as they were never bred up to live by . thus not only t.d. i.o. r.b.i.t. but in a manner all our literal preachers , when the letter leans not that way themselves , for their lusts sake list to have it , make no more to wrest it besides its own ordinary , proper , and literal se●se and import , which when it smiles with them , they plead , as much as they implead it , when it makes against them , then a man need do to turn a nose of wax which way he will , and no less then twenty wayes one after another , if they please ; yea , it is but saying when they are minded so to do , upon mislike of the spirits plain , naked , honest meaning , thus ; viz. the spirit does not mean here as he sayes , but means another thing ; 't is usual with christ to speak words of a doubtful sense , his meaning may be mistaken , when his words taken in the most ordinary and literal sense ; and so it would be , if by every man , we should understand every individual man ; the meaning of th●se words cannot be as the letter of them does import , then this and that absurdity would follow ( say our reconciling self-contradictors ) by which they import themselves to be very little insighted , either into the letter it self , which they are ministers meerly of , and much less into the mind of the spirit which gave it forth , which never does , as these in●aners and opinionists would make it , speak one thing , and mean another , but means truly what he sayes , though his very sayings are mysteries to the misty ministers ; when he sayes all , and every man , he means not some only , a few , one of a thousand , as the personal electionists do , who extend the large love of god so far , as to say , it s intended but to few , and streighten the boundless mercy of god into a mi●e , which is stretched out matchlessly beyond measure over all his works , which universal terms ( all men ) ( every man ) if they were to be restrained , as they tell us , how much more legally may indefinite terms be taken in a restrained sense , and be made equivalent to particulars , and upon that account we may except the most sinners ( as they indeed do some of them personally and absolutely from all iudgement and condemnation , and the most , as absolutely from mercy and salvation ) from the fear of any evil befalling them for their sins ; so as to say , when god speaks indefinitely , he will rain snares , fire , brimstone , storm and temptest on the wicked ; that 's not all , and every wicked man , but a few only , therefore fear not ; wh●remengers and adulterers god will judge , lyars , murderers have their part in the lake ; that 's but some few only , at least not all , nor the most , not the saints , not his upright hearted davids , when gone from their uprightness ( for so david was in that matter of vriah , when guilty of murder and adultery ) therefore droop not ye murderous , adulterous saints of this english unclean-hearted israel : if god had said all , and every adulterer , and every murderer hee 'll judge , and divide him his portion in the lake , his meaning had not been as those words import , 't is usual for christ to speak words of a doubtful sense , ye mistake his meaning , if you understand him according to the ordinary and literal se●se of the universal terms all , and every man , as speaking of every individual man , but he speaks but indefinitely , sinners , whoremengers , adulterers , murderers , not expressing all and every such a one , which had he exprest , he had dot implyed , though the terms import so , for he offers one thing oft when he means another , offers that to all in words in his revealed will , which in heart and his secret will he intends but to a few , and if an universal cannot , without going aside from the literal sense it imports , yet the indefinite phrase hath a restrained se●se . ob. nay , this cannot be , though in the other case it may , because this is contrary to the faith , the other is not , and we must keep to the analogy of faith in our interpretings of the scriptures . rep. herein ye are more miserably bemoped and befool'd ( if ye could once see it ) then in all other your absurdities put together , for i ●row whence , or from what church , principle , ground , foundation , comes that faith , according to the analogy of which ye are to conform in your interpretations of the scripture , it must be either the infallible chair , and bottomless pit of mens dunghilly traditions , which is the foundation of the church of rome , and her faith , which foundation , church and faith that 's built on it , ye would seem in words at least to deny , or else the infallible light and spirit of god in the heart , which the letter came from ; and the qua. according to the letter , and together with it , call men to , and are themselves , as to their faith founded on , whom together with their faith ( which stands not in mens words , writings , nor thoughts , but in that light which is the power of god ) and that foundation of it also , with no less , but a little more detestation ye deny ; or else the scripture it self , which ( as much as ye live by ( yea by popish ) tradition in many things , as the papists do ) yet ( in words ) ye own . now the two first being denyed , this last is the rule of your faith , according to the tenor and analogy of which , the churches faith , which ye must interpret scripture by , is to be framed and conformed : see then your most abominable confusions and rounds ye run in : . you have the scripture , before which the true faith was delivered to the saints a years , which scripture is the foundation of your church & faith ( whereby ye might see , were ye not blind , that your church and faith has not the same foundation as the true had ) next , you have a faith which must be squared by the best interpretations ye can make of that scripture , alias , a common stock of divinity , that stinks as the blood of a dead man that hath no life in it : then again , this scripture , by the analogy of which ( as the church interprets it ) your churches faith is to be framed , must be bent to , and interpreted by the analogy of that faith which was thereby framed : so riddle me , riddle me , what 's this round of our reasonless rabbies ? . the scripture is the rule of our faith ( say they according to our churches interpretations of which her common faith must ( as to the articles of it ) be framed and conformed . . the common faith is the rule , according to the analogy of which the scripture must be interpreted , and all our expositions of it framed and conformed : oh the bruitish brainy notions of our of our brittish nation ! a false faith about personal election and reprobation , about all 's signifying some men only , and every man only a few , being framed in iohn calvins fancy upon his miserable mistakes , and misinterpretations of the scripture ( scilicet ) ever since all scripture must be interpreted according to the analogy of that false faith : ●●a ferunt & circum-feruntur , t. d. j. o. r. b. j. t. ignoramus , sm●ctimnuus , and others . the blood of christ cleanseth us , in presenti , from all sin , that 's the guilt ( say they ) not filth of it , though the very phra●e imports otherwise ; cleanse your selves from all uncleanness of flesh and spirit , that 's not as the letter imports , all indeed , but all gross iniquities ; we must have our infirmities while we live here , and and if he meant them , he commanded impossibilities , which the apostle did not : he that sinneth is of the devil , he that 's of god , sins not ; that 's not as the word amartanei ( nemine c●ntradicente ) imports , but it must be expounded by the other phrase amartian poiein , operam dare peccato , &c. ( which amartian poiein , but that they stretch it out upon the tenters , is no more then amartanein ; for he that sins does sin , and he that commits sin does no more , and does so much , as that while he does sin , he is ( as christ said , iohn . ) a servant of it , and not of christ in that ; they do no iniquity , that is , not as the letter imp●rts , but they do none as the wicked do it , that is , with all their might , but more moderately : perfection , that 's only such an uprightness and sincerity , as respects all gods commandments , whether they be kept or broken ; saved from sin , is from the dominion , not being of it , while we have a being here , it hath not potestatem dominandi , nor damnandi , but operandi , bellandi , captivandi , only led paul captive ; while he liv'd , to the law of it ; so that with his flesh he served it , but it domineers not , damns not , because the mind approves it not , while the flesh commits it , if it chance to be murder and adultery , as that of david , whose heart was upright ( say they ) though the scripture excepts him from uprightness in that case , and therefore iustified ( quoth t. d. ) alias , held guiltless ( o criss-cross ) while under the guilt of it , being weak , and temptation strong , and an hundred more such fetches do our formally holy fathers find , wherewith to feed up them●elves and their failing flocks from fainting under their ●●●lest faults , minifi●d into the name of saints infirmities . thus they swim up and down in their non-sensical senses and notions , so that nothing must be taken as the words import , but when a meaning serves their licenticus turns , and then they urge , the words import it so ; one while it must be as the phrase imports , other whiles it cannot be so , but otherwise then the letner imports it , for then the scripture ( so it seems indeed to the owls and batts , whose eyes dazle at the light it came from , so that they see more by night then by day ) would contradict it self , and be at variance , and disagree within it self , and cannot approve it self to their own understandings , without the mediation of their ( own ) meanings and interpretations , and therefore they must reconcile it to it self , though they are at never so much odds among themselves , and each man within himself , about this matter of setting it to rights , even one saying this is the meaning , the other that , a third in my opinion it is so , a fourth , i think it must be either so , or so , but which he determines no more then t. d , till they have reconciled it into nothing , but an irreconcileable enmity with it self , and an occasion of irreconcilable enmity about it between themselves . and this i know not only as one of those that now see in the lords light their dotage herein , and the wrong and crooked wayes wherein they are at work , to set that to rights , and strait , which is so already in itself , if they could let it alone , without wresting it into constructions as crooked , as they are in their conversations , but as one that was once as busie as the best of them in the same blind , fruitless , frothy work , of beating the brains about the meaning of this and that , which the spirit only reveals to the poor in spirit , and not to the proud , haughty scorner , that dealeth in proud w●ath against the righteous , having been my self ( when i was where they yet are , who where i now am cannot come , but with the losse of that life they yet live , and through the death of a crosse thereunto ) looking , and skimming , and scraping among the learned scribes , into the scripture for the sense of it without the spirit ; i can tell them by experience , as well as by the light , in which it is seen , and told them by my self and many more , to what little purpose or profit , either to themselves or their people , who dea●ly pay for it , they are by the best improvment of their natural capacities academical parts , and such meer animal accomplishments , p●ying into the privities of the scriptures , which according to i. os. and specially t. ds. his principles and way of interpretation and giving meanings , is more made to patronize and partize with the transgressions of supposed saints , then to promote the perfect purging from them in this world , which yet the scriptures truly plead not only a possibility , but a necessity of before men die , unless they mean to die for ever , when t. d. and his abettors , implead it as a very doctrine of devils , pleading rather ( because an impossibility of living without it ) a necessity of living in it , while in the body . which said doctrine of perfectior , or full pardon from sin here , i shall have a few words about with t. d. by and by , after an addition of some few arguments more in proof of the universality of gods love in the dea●h of christ for all , and of the gifts of his saving grace , or light sufficient to lead all that follow it to life , vouchsafed to every man , and some brief animadversion of what more our four fore named antagonists argue to the contrary . arg. . if christ died not for the whole world , and for all and every man in it , but for a few only : and god gave him not , a light , to be his salvation ( as it is said isai. . . ) to all the ends of the earth , all which also he calls to look to him and be saved , isa. . . to hear him , that their souls may live to come to him , even whoever will , that they may find rest , and have of the water of life freely , isai. . . matth. . . rev. . then the world , and most men , who generally are damned for this very sin , even because they believe not in , hear not , look not , come not to christ iesus , iohn . . iohn . , . are damned for not looking to , coming to , nor believing in their saviour , when yet they had no saviour of theirs to look at , or come to , or believe in . but all men have a saviour to believe in , and look to , and come to , which for not hearing , looking , nor coming to , nor believing in , they are damned ( yea this is the worlds condemnation , that light is come into it , yet the world comes not to the light ) otherwise as 't is sottish absurdity , and lamentable mockage , to call all to look , and come to , and believe in him ; so such inconceivable cruelty , as ( absit blasphemia , far be it from us to think there is in god ) to damn them , upon the account of not coming , or non-believing in him : therefore he is given a light , a ransome , a saviour for all and every man. arg. . if it be a lie , that christ died for every man ( as we say he did ) and a truth , that he died but for a few only ( as they hold ) then , sith god requires a●l on pain of damnation so to believe , if every man should believe christ died fo● him , god , on pain of damnation , requires most men to believe a lye , and damns them for believing the very truth , viz. that he died not for every of them , and for not believing that , which if they all had believed , the most of them had believed a lie . but ( absit blasphemia ) god damns no man for believing the truth , or for not believing , that which if they did all believe , most of them must necessarily and unavoidab●y believe a lie . therefore christ did undoubtedly die for every man , and not for a few only . arg. . if the redemption and salvation by the death and blood of christ , which we confesse actually to extend to none , but such as actually believe , be not truly given from god to every man as his , as well as any man , so that at least every man may really have it , if he will , then either it is . because christ is not a ransome sufficient to save all : or . because god wills and desires not that should save every man , which is sufficient so to do : or else . because most men neglect that so great salvation , and put it away from themselves , and will not have it when god would they should , and thereby judge themselves unworthy of it : or . else for some other reason . but 't is not the first , for your selves and all men confess a sufficiency of redemption and salvation in christ for all men : nor the second , for that were to make god , whose wayes are all exact and equal , so inequal in his doings , as no wise man is , to cut out a plaister as broad as a bushel to lay to a scare no broader then a shilling , or rather ( upon your principles of unavoidble , sorer condemnation to the reprobate part of the world , by christs coming into it to save it , then if he had never come a saviour into it at all ) to provide a plaister sufficient to heal the whole sore , with an intent effectually to heal some very small part of it only , but to render all the residue more outragious and farre sorer , or to pay a ransome sufficient to redeem a thousand prisoners for debt , with intent actually to set some one at liberty , and for ever lay all the rest up closer prisoners in the dungeon . which absurdity , and mockage , and perfect hatred , under pretence of love too , far be it from any good man to father and fasten upon god , and from me to fasten on any good man , that in the least measure is merciful as god is merciful . moreover deus nil facit f●nstra . if ye say the third , ye say no otherwise then that truth with us ( that yet ye fight against ) viz. that god , as he has provided life in his son , so he is as truly willing all men should live , but that some will die , and would gather men unto life , save only that they themselves will not . if any other thing be the reason , why every man may not as truly be saved by christs death as any man , it lies in you to assign it , i know none . therefore christ died intentionally to save every man. arg. . if all men are not put into possibility of life by christs dying intentionally for every one of them , if themselves chuse not death ; then it could not be said , as by sin condemnation is come on all men , so justification of life is come on all men ; and that the gift of gods grace , and gift of god in christ , and the benefit and blessing is every way , at least , as large , and some wayes larger and abounding , beyond the mischief and curse that comes by the sin . but it is in effect so said , rom. . . : . therefore all and every man is made as capable to be saved by christ , as every man is liable to be damned by reason of the sin . arg. . christ could not be truly or properly said to be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world , nor the saviour of the whole world , to be given a covenant to the people ; a witnesse to the people ; a leader and commander to the people ; a light to the nations , gods salvation to the ends of the earth , much lesse could all people in any consistency with mercy , or ( ut prius ) without foolery and mockery of most men in the midst of their remediless misery , be bid to behold him , or all the ends of the earth be summoned with promise , yea assurance of salvation if they do , and on pain of more cruel damnation if they do not , to look and come to him for it , and hearken to his voice ( or else be cut off ) in all things whatever he saith to them , and such like , unless he were truly , properly , and intentionally , at least , given to be all this to all men , all the people , the whole world , and every man in it . but he is said so to be ( as abovesaid ) to all , and all people , even all ends of the earth , &c. are on such promises and penalties , summoned to behold him , look , come , and hearken to him ( as aforesaid ) isai. . . . . . . . , . acts . , . iohn . . iohn . . and in unspeakable more places . therefore he is a saviour , a leader , a light , &c. which ( in some measure at least ) savingly enlightens no lesse then every individual . chap. iv. i. os. t. ds. i. ts. r. bs. and all other our common adversaries common exceptions are but frivolously foolish , boyish , toyish , shameful tergiver sations , and as senseless as helpless escapes , when they tell us the whole world , iohn . is meant of the gentiles only , as in opposition to the iews ; not only for our sins , that is , of us iews ( say they ) but also for the sins of the whole world , that is , of the gentiles , which division there savors of shallowne●s enough , for iohn writes that epistle not more peculiarly or specially to the iewish then to the gentile believers ( as he must be understood to do , if their sense on that clause were true ) but promiscuously and generally to all the saints among both , whereupon it is superscribed the generall epistle of iohn : but the distinction there made relates to all men in the world , b●lievers and vnbelievers , of what nation soever , for all whom , while they are yet sinners , enemies by wicked works , he died , and became a ra●s●m● , a sacrifice , a light , that all men in him might believe , and thorough faith in his light might be saved ( quoad posse ) i. e. potentially , or if they will , whether actually or ( quoad esse ) they ever are saved , yea or nay ; though he prayed not for the world , as it lies in enmity and wickedn●ss , but for such only as come out of the world , and the wickednesses thereof , and that in all ages believe on his name thorough the one word , as iohn . . neither pray i for thes● alone , i. e. that do now believe , but for all that ever shall believe , &c. that they may be one in us . for ( as mysterious a riddle as this is to our misty-minded rabbies , who cannot see wood for trees ) yet christ can be truly said to die for men in some cases and conditions ( qua talibus ) whom ( qua talibus ) as in the same cases and conditions considered , he cannot pray for , that ( in that state ) they may be one with him and god , who can have no unity with iniquity ; he stands , in esse actuali , actually offered up a ransome , a propitiation for the sins of the whole world , even in that state , while it lies in enmity and wickedness , as yet unreconciled to god , by whose giving himself that way , all men may be reconciled to god through faith in him , whether ever they will be reconciled , yea or nay : but ( howbeit he may wish so well to his adversaries , as to die for them , that they , in that way of faith , might live through him , and may wish also that they would believe , that so in that way they might be forgiven , yet ) he stands not actually , nor immediately , an advocate , making actual intercession for any , that they ( immediately , or in their present state ) may stand accepted with the father , but for such only as already actually do believe ; wherefore iohn sayes ( with appropriation of i● to himself , and other saints , as are found confessing and repenting fr●m their sins ) we have an advocate with the father , even iesus christ , &c. but of all men ( without exception , without limitation of christ to himself and other saints ) the same is the propitiatio● , not for our sins only , i. e. : ours who do already own , and have believed in him , but also for the sins of the whole w●●l● ; i. e. for all other mens sins , as well as ours , whether ever they own and believe in him so farre , as to have any actual benefit by him , yea or nay . besides , if we grant them , whose sense on it is otherwise ( as we are free to do , it being a t●uth al●o , though not the di●ect distinction there intended ) their own distinction of that clause , not ours only , but also of the whole world , into the iews and gentiles , their own distinction is enough to ●●●f●●nd themselves , as to the question in hand ; for the whole world being divided into iews and gentiles , iews and gentiles are termes comprehen●● and conclusive of the whole world , and of no lesse then every individual 〈◊〉 therein as well as , any man. and as for their some of all nations , some of all ports , some iews , some gentiles , and among gentiles of every country , tongue , kindred , and condition some , not all of all kindreds , countrys , conditions , &c. not each man between this and the utmost parts of the earth ( as the literal sense of that phrase , all the ends of the earth , imports ) but here and there some , the elect , a few in comparison of the rest , that are left without any saviour , or saving grace , or sufficient light to lead them to life , and so ( as personally decreed thereto ) left to perish doubly , for not believing ( secundum te o sacerdos ) in a saviour , when they never had one ; the people , i. e. some ( a poor pittance among all people ) not all the people without exception , not the whole world , but that whole small part of elect ones , elected personally out of that whole , a thousand to one whereof are as personally from of old for eve● remedilesly reprobated ; and such like sowre stuffe , and dark dribling , as is found in this case among the divines ( as age ) away with it , it is unsavory , and stinks as a dunghill of doctrine , and becomes in the sight of all , but the blind , as the blood of a dead man that hath no life in it at all , and as little of that which is called common sense and reason , and unworthy to have so much time spilt upon it , as to be too particularly talk'd with , or of any other return , then to be returned back , as deceit , together with its father , by whole sale into the deep , from whence it came ; only there might be enough pickt out of it , whereby to shew the shallownesse of its authors . we know well enough it is but few , and some of every nation ; tongue , kindred , and people , that are actually redeemed unto god , but it is not because there is not redemption as truly intended as tendred to them , as well as sufficiently purchased for them , but because they put it away from themselves , by not turning to the teachings of that light , word , and grace of god that is nigh in their hearts , and brings it nigh unto them , else all , even gentiles , as well as well as iews , heathens , and indians , as well as english men and christians ( so called ) and among each of these , all , as well as any of them ▪ ha●e some measure of that grace nigh them , which in the least measure * is enough and sufficient to help and heal them , were they as continually and earnestly within attendant on it , as they commonly and eagerly ever turn outwards from it ( whereby it becomes to them of no effect ) when god either without , or within , or both , calls upon all ends of the earth ( which word cannot be exclusive of any , but must be conclusive of every individual ) to look in unto it , and in it to look unto himself , and to behold and hear him , whom he hath given as a guide , a light , to shew good and evil , a law , a witness for god against them , when they do evil , within themselves , a leader and commander to all people . object . 't is not to all people , but to the people , an indefinite phrase that hath a restrained sense . rep. the indefinite phrase here hath an enlarged sense , and is aequivalent to an universal , isa. . the people , v. . answers to , h● every one , v. . and and if it were to be restrained , there ought to have been some restrictive , exceptive expression , but there is an expresse enlargement , and i may as well ●●mit it in other places ( as the churles with the evil instruments of their own inventions do in these places , so as when god sayes oft in the psalm●s , and elsewhere , beh●ld he cometh to judge the world in righteousness , and the people with equity , to say , god will not judge all people , nor the whole world , and every individual , but some few people only in righteousness and truth , and so coop the wrath and judgement of god up into a corner , and prate it as perversly into a pinfold , as the priests of those piteous principles do his mercy , who prate of a peremptory predestination ( without respect to sin , or at least any other then adams personal act ) of most persons , before they had any being , remeditesly and unchangeably to damnation . object . what then do the quakers deny gods unchangeablenesse in his decree ? rep. gods decree i deny not to be unalterable , but blind priests mistake that unchangeable decree of his , which is to be toward men , as they toward him , merciful to the upright , wrathful to the froward and wicked ; to shew himself in his love as a friend , father , forgiver for ever , even inalterably , unchangeably , world without end , to the penitent that turn to him , and come to him by christ , in his light , keeping his commandements ; and as unalterably , unchangeably , without variation or shadow of turning that immutable mind and will of his , to shew himself in his wrath everlastingly , eternally to the finally impenitent sinners , who are found living and dying in that seed which is unchangeably reprobated from him : so whom he loves he loves to the end , and whom he hates he hates to the end , that is , for ever ; but those whom from eternity he hath thus immutably decreed to love , and own , and honour to eternity , are the righteous ones that honour him , the godly in all ages , whoe're they are , which are those only that he chuses to himself , psalm . ( whether foreseen who they will be in time by him , or not , that is nothing to the purpose ) and whom he thus , as immutably from all eternity decrees to disregard , hate , and reject to eternity , are the seed of evil doers , that lightly despise him , who are never to be renowned ; so whatever changes fall out among men , who are sometimes better , sometimes worse , and among their states , which are some good , some bad , there is no change in the mind of god , what ever the thoughts of mens hearts are , his unchangeable counsel stands the same , his purpose and decree the same , which is from eternity , to own the good , and refuse the bad , to justifie the walkers in his light , christ jesus , and judge all that rebel against it ; so he doth not change his will , but his unchangeable will to persons is , to be unchangeably affected to them in either love or hatred , respectively , as they respectively are found at any time the subjects of sin or not , and so consequently objects of either the one affection mutually , or the other ; as if a king decrees after the manner of the medes and persians , inalterably , that his people shall have as they do , he that does well shall be beloved , and he that does ill and repents not from it , shall be hated , hanged , one and the same person may ( at different times ) be under the two different affections , viz. now under the favour , and now under the displeasure of the king , as he does well or ill , and by and by love and in his favour again , as he repents , or else as not repenting be so under his hatred as to be hanged , yet the kings mind , will , and decree , stands the same unchangeable as it ever did . so in the case in hand , there 's muta●i● rei non dei , a change of the case of mans will and manners , and ( accordingly ) of his state , or standing the object of either gods love or hatred , under either his favour or displeasure , but gods mind , will , decree , counsel , love and hatred , stands unchangeably and everlastingly to the same subjects that were the objects thereof at first ; viz. whether sinners or saints : and thus god did not at all change in his decree , mind , will and purpose , to perpetuate the priesthood to eli's house for ever , though he once said it should con●inue for ever , and after said , but now be it far from me , forasmuch as his purpose was at first to continue it , in case he honoured god in it , and his unchangeable counsel is ever this , viz. that those who honour me , i will honour , but those that despise me shall be lightly regarded , sam. . . ob. this gives the glory of salvation not to god , but to mans will , which is all in all , then in the busine●s . rep. it 's not for want of ignorance , that the narrow noddles think thus , for originally and supremely still , the glory is to the universal grace of god , who in his love freely to all men sends his son a light into the world , and by him puts all , as well , as some into a capacity to live if they list , and if any die then , gods grace and love is nere the less for all that ; and though secondarily and immediately the case be left by the lord to depend on mans choice , as it was in the first adam ( though yet i know such as are perfectly restored by the second , stand a little surer then he did , i say , when perfected in his life ) yet if man chuse life and live , when life and death are set before him ( as they are ) god is no more rob'd of the glory of his goodness , then he would have been by adams standing , if he had stood , when god set him in aequi librio , to stand or fall , and made him upright , as he has done 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not him only , but mankind , till they go out from him after their own inventions , eccl. . . and that was not one jot at all ; for though the shame of adams sinning fell justly on himself , yet the glory of his standing would have been to god , who made him able to stand , had he stood , neither would adam ( had he stood ) have plaid the fool so as to fall a praising and thanking himself for the life and happiness he would have had , but god , who in his love and bounty originally stated him in it , though for his misery he may ( as all men also ) most justly thank none but himself , and the devil : e.g. if i should see two men ready to starve for want of money to trade with , and out of true equal bowels of pity to them both , should freely bestow an equal stock of money on them , or if not equal , yet so much to each at least , that each ( using and improving well what he hath ) may come to live like a man ; one of them plays the good husband with what he has , and thrives , whom shall he thank , when unavoidably else he had perisht ? for the money he had given him , and now hath ? would you not think him a fool to fall a thanking himself , never thinking on the man that first set him up ? of whom ( unless besides his wits ) he would say , i am bound to thank not my self , that i now live , when my fellow starves , but that honest man that took pity on me and him too , if he he had but used what he had ● t'other spends all his portion in riotous living , and is as likely to starve as ere he was , for want of improving what i gave him , whom shall this man thank for his present poverty ? me that gave him whereon to live , or himself who lavish't it ? every wise man will see my love was nere the less , and though he perish , yet the thank that he might have liv'd , belongs to anothers bounty , and the thank , shame , sorrow of his own woe to himself alone ; o israel thy destruction is of thy self , but in me is thy help , hos. . . that iudas is damn'd , he may thank himself , who sold his master , as esau his birth-right and blessing , that peter and iacob live for ever , the thank of this belongs only unto the grace of god. moreover , if christ who is often , either expresly or implicitly so call'd , be not a saving light to the whole world , the leader , and commander , and witness , for and from god to all people , without exception of any individuals among any people , or in any nations , i would fain know of any one of these ; . how it can be truth , which themselves are fain to confess , that god will and doth in all nations , out of every tongue , kindred , and people , effectually save some ? and . in what manner , or by what way , means , light , or leader , he leads them few of all families of the earth to life , whom he doth save , if it be not by that light , law , and spirit of life that is from christ , some of which is in every , as well as any conscience , sith its evident , that neither all nor half those nations , in each of which some are saved , have not the scripture or letter which they call the only saving light , the way , the rule , foundation , the most effectual means , &c. and in a manner every thing , which the letter it self sayes christ only is : indeed i find i. o. telling us such a tale of the outward text , as if in respect of the giving out of that only by the motion of his spirit , through some holy penmen , christ were the saviour and light of the world , and of all men in it , that are at all savingly enlightned , and saved . * we confess ( quoth he ) christ is the light of the world , and so of all men in it , because that light shining in the holy scripture , is sufficient savingly to enlighten all men , to whomsoever by the providence of god it shall come : but ( to bespeak him in his own language to us , more proper to himself and his followers then to us ) quod hoc ad fanaticorum delirium ? 〈…〉 . what 's this to that piece of dotage of himself and his fellow doctors , who deny the vouchsafing of any saving illumination to most men , yea , to very many to one in the world ? scilicet , a little deeper discovery of their dotage ; scriptura nempe 〈…〉 omnia ; belike i. o. deems all the ends of the earth to be so fully filled with his adored transcripts and texts of scripture , that by them christ saves , and enlightens all he saves , which are ( say they ) in every nation some ; whereas ( ridiculum caput ) who knows not that the scripture or writing is so sa● from appearing in every dark corner of the earth ( where i affirm the true light shines in every conscience , so that there 's nor speech , nor language where it shines not , and the voice of christ the light may not 〈◊〉 heard ) that the text hath scarce been heard or 〈◊〉 of , bu●in some few corners of this ( so call'd ) christian world , which yet more idoli●ing 〈◊〉 only loving the letter , and hating the light , are , for all their letter , as much as any , in the unfruitful deeds of darkness also , even until now . oh the inanity of these men ( call'd divines ) in the matters of god and the gospel ! as if the letter only were that voice of christ which is every where heard by some ; that light , which in every nation savingly enlightens some ; that rule , which all the world is required to walk by , in order to peace , and on pain of damnation , which letter yet was never read or seen ( perhaps not so much as heard of ) in half the world , the only rule of the whole whereof it is to be ( say they ) and not the light of christ in the conscience at any hand , the expansion , beams , and rays of which ( but that few heed it , and the darkness comprehends it not ) reach into the darkest inmost corners of each 〈◊〉 conscience , throughout each corner of the whole creation . the letter is not in , every nation to save some out of each , or if it were , and be the saving light , whether men walk by it or not , 't would be a light to every as well as any man in each nation , and so saving light ( though not used ) would ( contrary to i. os. tale ) be vouchsafed by christ to every man in every nation ; but the light is not only in every nation , but in every heart , in each nation ; and because it is so , though few are saved by it , because few heed it , yet every man may be saved by it as well as any man. arg. . to conclude this then , i confess that 't is either the letter that these scribes talk for , or that light we talk for , and they against , which is that one only universal , unchangeable , infallible standing law , light , witness , word , guide , rule , touchstone , and saving way to life ; in respect of which , christ is said to be the leader , commander , and witness from god to all people , the light of the whole world , and consestuently of all men in it . but 't is not the letter , therefore 't is the light we speak of , in fuller proof of this last , and disproof of the former : consider the rule , law , light , &c. and means of life and salvation ( what ever it is ) must be adequate in its expansion and extent , to the men that ought to be ruled , guided led to life by it , on pain of further , perishing and cursing if they be not . but the light of christ in each conscience is so , teaching there whatever , god requires of each person , as to his own peace , and what god in the doing thereof will accept him in , and the letter not so ; therefore the said light , and not the letter , is that by which christ is gods witness to the world , and all peoples leader ( if they will follow him ) unto life . the plaster should be adequate to the sore , and not short of it ( as the light is not , but the letter is in its extent , in respect to all ends of the earth ) else there 's as much folly in this extreme , as i said above , there would be in the other ( it being as little wisdome to be too short , as to over-reach ) for a man to make a plaster no broader then a penny , for a wound as broad as a crown piece , as 't is to cut a plaster of the compass of a bushel , for a sore no broader , then a six pence . that rule , law , light , and word , by which all are to live , and be judged , and tryed , and for nor living by which to be condemned , must universally be extended to all and every man , those who have a copy thereof without , and those who have no such copy , but are without it ; for lex & papulus cujustex est ; verbum & hi● qum●um officium est illud ●●dire 〈◊〉 obedire , lux &c illuminandi , mensura & mersierandum , regula & prebandum debent esse adaequata : the law , and they to whom it s given , as that by which they must live or die for breaking it , the w●rd , and th●se that are bound is hear and obey it ; the light , and such ●● are to see by it ; the rule , and such men , as well as manners , as are to be measured , and 〈◊〉 by it , on peril of damnation , if not agreeing with it , must be so adequate , that the rule , law , light , word , must by the providence of god be made to reach and extend to the u●most corner in all ages , wherein the men to whom it s given are abiding , that they may see it , whether that be the letter without , or the light within ; so that if that in the conscience we assert so to be , be that saving light , law , means , rule , &c. then it must be by the law-giver ordered to come within the cognizance of every man in the world , who is to live or dye , and ( as he keeps or breaks it ) to stand or fall by it for even ; if the scripture be it , then that must be ordered to come as universally to all and every man ; otherwise , as that king or parliament might be said to mock the nation , and make it miserable , that should make a certain law , which whoever keeps shall live , and who keeps not shall be hanged , and yet , keeps that law within the little corner of that city of westminster , and and never suffers or orders the copy of it to come to the sight of others , neither in our known mother-tongue , nor yet so much as in an unknown tongue , in one of which at least our english laws , as much as they are lapt up , not a little from the cognizance of poor people among the learned lawyers only ( as j. o. laps his lying labours , learned leagu●es , and loud challenges against the quakers , from the lai●ks ( as he thinks ) within the cloud of his latine language ) or as that man who should in a dark night hang out one single candle in a lanthorn only for all london to see by , or he that should preach at pauls-cross , and command all ends of england , at their peril , to hear his voice from thence , might truly be call'd a mocker . so ( to use i. os. own words again , ex. . s. . ) si scripturam vel ab omnibus percipī nolit , & tamen omnes qui doctrinam e●us non observant vel ideo condemnas ; quid ni millies mille miseres homunciones deus per tale verbum , medium , regulam , legem , lucem , ludos facere ( absit blasphemia ) oestimandus sit ? if god give out a law , light , rule , word of life to all , which he will condemn men f●r not obeying , and yet would not have it by all so much as to be seen ; why may not god be thought ( which were blasphemy to think ) to mock millions of men , and make them miserable without their personal default , by such a word , means , rule , light , or law , &c. which instead of going forth of sion and ierusalem , to the whole earth , is confin'd within the little hill of sion itself ? but now the light within the letter calls all to , is in all men , the letter without not so universal , but extending to very few ; therefore the light within , not the bare letter without , is that saving means , word , rule , law , &c. besides , if the letter were the law , light , word , and rule ( which yet was never seen by most in most nations , then that respect to persons and nations , which was ( once ) more to the iews then any people upon earth , as to the giving out of a meer outward letter of his law to beep , which respect was ended in christ , who brake down that partition wall between iew and gentile , eph. is hereby set up again which woe be to him that builds , when god hath destroyed ▪ bu● up again , that must not come , for though he once gave his laws and statutes to israel in an outward letter and copy , which thing he did not do to any people else , nor other nation ( if i. o. will believe the scripture ) nor doth to any nation at all to this day , at their sole rule and guide , yet of a truth i perceive , saith peter , act. . . . ( and he who is not blinded may perceive it also ) that god is now no respecter of nations one above another , nor of persons in the nations , so as to give his statutes , judgements , laws , rule , and saving means of life ( if the letter were so ) to one nation or person , and not in any measure to another , but in every nation he that feareth god ( whose fear is to depart from what evil his light in the conscience makes manifest ) and worketh righteousness ( which none do who live not by that , and all do who live by it , for sin is no other then the transgression of that law ( which is the light ) is accepted with him . arg. . again , let me argue with thee i. o. out of thy own words ; if others will not answer affirmatively , and assent to this as truth , yet thou i. o. must , who asserts it for truth thy self ; for this argument , in ●o●idem verbis , is no other then thine own ; for with reference to ioh. . . the very place that we argue the self-same from , thou thy self , though intentionally against us , yet unawares really arguest for us on this wife ; viz. the light and illumination mentioned in this place , ioh. . . are spiritual ; without all controversie , and pertaining to the regeneration by grace , not natural , and so pertaining to the creation , for in the same sense * in which men are said to be darkness , are they said to be enlightned , else the apostles speech would be aequivocal ; but men are not said onely spiritually , but universally also to be darkness ; therefore are they by christ not spiritually only , but universally also enlightned . and as contrariorum eadem est ratio , so contrariorum contraria est ratio , not only in , the same sense in some respects , but also in other respects , in the very contrary sense to that , wherein men are darkned by the devil , are they enlightned , by christ ; but all mankind is not only spiritually and universally , but also damnably darkned by the devil ; therefore mankind is not only spiritually and universally , but also savingly enlightned by christ. from what hath been said and shewed above then i affirm , that the grace and light in the conscience , which in some measure or other is from god and christ given in common to all men , is not only universal , but saving ; and though most are by it no more then accused , reproved , condemned , and left without excuse , and not ●astified nor saved , yet there wants not sufficiency in it to save , and that men are not saved , but mostly condemned by it , 't is only because they answer not the mind of god revealed in it , but love the darkness more then it , which they hate to come to ( as christ saves ) because their deeds are evill : whereas did they but glorifie him answerably to what he requires of them , who no● exacts nor expects from any the doing more of his mind and will , then what he one time or other manifesteth to them to be his will concerning them in their own consciences , they should not be without excuse , nor stand condemned in gods sight , but be accepted , justified , and saved from the wrath which comes only on the children of disobedience , it being the power of god as sufficient to the excuse and salvation of those from sin and wrath that obey the measure of it in themselves , as to subject those to accusation , rejection , judgement , wrath and condemnation , that rebel against it . to all the abovesaid arguments therefore i shall subject this one , after the prosecution of which , in proof of the sufficiency of that light to save , which is given in common to all men , i shall take some notice of r. bs. and i. ts. arguings to the contrary . arg. . that light which ( rebel'd against ) 〈◊〉 sufficient to accuse and condemn , and render a man guilty , reprobate , or reproved , is ( if obeyed ) sufficient to excuse , clear , justifie , save from condemnation , and render approved . but the light in all is sufficient to condemn all that rebell against it , therefore to save , as abovesaid , such as obey it . the minor is your own ▪ the major i shall proceed in proof of . and here since i am so neer it , i shall take occasion to refell that foolish conceit and dream of our divines , in which both thou t. d. & i. o. i. t. r. b. are all four found ( for in most of this main matter of the light ye run parallel , and are coincident , except now and then a crosse whet each to other ) concerning the non-sufficiency of the light to save ( however improved ) though yielded to be sufficient to leave excuselesse and condemn , for here ye dance between these two stages still in your stickles with the qua. against the light , cutting capers to and fro with your legs acrosse , and sliding out of one f●orry shift into another ; when they tell you the true light of god ( which is but one , and that not natural , but supernatural , though in never so many different degrees in mens hearts ) is common to all , ye yield ( for ye cannot stand against it ) that it is so , but then it is not saving ; when they prove it saving , ye yield it is saving , but then not common , which that it is both , i have shewed above against you all ; some words only here as to that absurdity , it is sufficient to leave man inexcusable , if not obeyed , and to condemn him , but not to save , justifie , or render him accepted , if obeyed . that the whole body of the gentiles are enlightened ( and that by christ ) thou t. d. dost sometimes confess in terminis ( as i have shewed above , though at other times thou denyest it ) but thou addest p. . pamp. not by christ with the knowledge of salvation ( alias secundaunte ) with a light sufficient to save , salvation is of the iews ( i.e. ) among such as have the letter only , and by the law of the letter without ; i speak but thy sense p. . pamp. i. o. also denies this same light ( however attended to ) to be sufficient to bring to justification of life or salvation ; that still he ascribes to his only , all sufficient greek and hebrew text ; , and outward scriptures , ex. . s. . lumen hoc , utcunque ei attendatur , non est ullo respectu salutare , sed in rebus omnbius divinis finem ultimum quod attinet mera tenebra & cae●itas : so s. . sufficientiam quidem habet ad antapologesian , ad salutem non-item : this light indeed is sufficient to accuse and condemn , but not so to save . so t. d. again p. . pamp. natural light ( so ye call it still ) is to this purpose , to leave men without excuse , rom. . . so that they cannot say , as we suppose the heathens might , had we known of a remedy for our misery , we would have used it ; but as for salvation , many ages and generations neuer had one offer of it ; and among those who hear the gospel , it is offered to more then it is intended . r. b. and i. t. say the same , p. . the gentiles light by nature ( so he calls it ) though insufficient to direct for iustification and salvation , yet was useful for two ends . . to restrain from sin . . besides this end god hath another , that they might be inexcusable who sinned against the light in them , and god might be justified in his sentence and iudgement upon them , rom. . . that th●y might be without excuse , who held the truth [ mark how the light in all is called the truth , which men withhold in unrighteousness , therefore it must be the righteousness of god it self that is revealed from heaven and justifies ] in unrighteousness , and when they knew god glorified him not as god , neither were thankful , but were filled with unrighteousness , though they knew the judgement of god , that they that commit such things are worthy of death , v. . . whence it is , that gods judgement is proved to be according to truth , rom. . . and god found to be true , though every man a lyar : ignorance of the law [ mark again how they call it the law , by which is the knowledge of sin , the transgression , of which is sin , which paul calls , spiritual , holy , just , and good , these men all but natural , and sometimes no better then diabolical ] being not to be pleaded by them , that sin against the innate light of their own spirits ; forasmuch as that fact must needs be voluntary , which is done against the knowledge and judgement of a mans own conscience . thus far these men of the light within , it condemns ( say they ) but cannot save , accuses , cannot excuse . rep. monstrum horendum , &c. cui lumen ademptum ! what are our ministers become monsters now adayes , that take on them the name of seers for poor people , and yet have never an eye to see the truth withall themselves ? is there any law in the world that ( being broken ) brings penalty , accusation , cursing , judgement , or condemnation upon the transgressors , that does not as well hold guil●less , acquit , clear , justifie , and save from the said cursing and condemnation , its obeyers and observers ? . consider its impossible that any light should leave without excuse , and condemn a man , when sinned against , and not excuse , justifie , and keep out of condemnation , when it 's answered : for what i wot can condemn that man who walks up in exact obedience to that law or measure of light ( be it never so little ) which is lent him in particular to live by ? where there is no law nor light at all , there is no sin ( imputed , rom. . . ) where no law is broken there is no transgression to condemnation , for such sin is anomia , no other then the transgression of the law , and that in such particulars only , wherein it is made known , for to him that knows to do good , and doth it not , to him it is sin , iam. . not to him that never did , nor could ; for if abimelech had took to himself abraham's wife for his own ( not knowing but that she was his sister only as she said ) he had been clear , and not guilty , nor had sin been impured to him , or laid to his charge to condemnation , though the fact had been sin in it self , yet not sin unto his d●amnation : whereupon he pleads , when the lord comes by the light o the thing upon him , wilt thou slay a righteous nation ? in the integrity of my heart , and innocency of my ●ands have i done this ; and god answers , yea i know thou didst it in the integrity of thy heart , gen. . , , . can that possibly leave men without excuse or plea for themselves in their condemnation , when god comes to enter into judgement with them , that must be understood and believed by them , never to have put them by the best improvement thereof , and attendance to it ( as i. o. and t. d. say , the light of god in all does not , utcunque cui attendatur ) so much as in possibility of salvation , nor was sufficient ( had they never rebelled against it ) to have excused and acquitted them in the sight of god ? cannot they that have no light and grace , more then what ( had they obeyed and answered it ) would not have rendred them accepted in his sight , they being also personally , particularly , peremptorily predestinated to be damned , and to be disobedient to the light , that they might be damned ( as our divines say from pet. . . iude . . ) when god comes to plead in no other but a righteous way against them , and to damn them for that sore appointed disobedience to it , and to reckon and reason with them thus , why would you die , and not live ? a : i live , i had much rather ye should have lived then died , but that ye would your selves destroy your selves , when in me was help , and i would have helped you , and therefore sent my son , a light , to lead you to life , not to condemn , but to save you , had you walked in it , for hating and want of walking in which alone it is , that ye now must be condemned for ever ; had i not sent you light , and spoken to you by my self and son , you had had no sin ; but now seeing ye knew my will and did it not , in the doing of which ye should have entred my kingdome , but stopt your ears , closed your eyes , despised my counsel , set at naught all my reproof ; to you this is sin , for which he have no cloak , plea , &c. nor excuse , or if you have let us hear it . i say , cannot such plead again , lord it is true , thou art out soveraign , and mayest do with thy own as a potter with his clay , and dash us to pieces at thy pleasure , but thou art also a god of righteousness and truth , who hast said , thou wilt do right , as the judge of all the earth , and thou wilt not do that thy self which thou damnest others for doing , as thou didst pharoah for requiring men to make such a tale of brick as they had not sufficiency of straw for ; and we hope thou wilt not damn us for not doing what thou know'st we never could , being never sufficiently impowered by thy self , & we trust thou wilt not condemn us ( at least not with the sorer condemnation ) as accessary to our own death , and for not coming to christ that we might have life , and for want of coming to the saving knowledg of thy self , mind , and will , and for not obeying the gospel of our lord jesus , and for nor coming to him in his light , and not believing in him as our saviour , and for want of improving our talents to the utmost to our salvation , for non-improvement of which alone , and for non-obedience to which light and gospel alone , and non-belief only in which christ , thou now tellest us we must perish , which gospel had we obeyed , which christ had we believed in as our , which saving knowledge of thee if we had had , which talent or talents had we improved to the best , we should not have perisht , but have had everlasting life ; fora●much as it was told us for truth from thee by these that say they are thy ministers ( if they did not lie ) and however they made us believe so , that we were never put into any capacity for life and salvation by all that best grace that thou vouchsafedit to u● : they told us , not only that many ages and generations never had one offer of salvation from thee , but also , that in these very nations where thy gospel , rich grace , and large love ( as they call it at least ) is proclaimed and held forth , in words , proffers , preachings , and pretences to all , yet there is not one of an hundred ( that is , as they say , no more then the personally elected ones , which are very few also , as they say , in comparison of the rest , that were a certain determinate , but much more numberlesse number also , as unchangeably reprobated from everlasting , without reference to good or evil foreseen to be done by them in time ) that the salvation so universally offered in thy name , was ever so truly intended to by thee as it was tendred ; and that the saviour of the world , of whom they say , he came to save not the righteous , but sinners and ungodly ones , to seek out that which is lost , and of whom they say , thou in thy love sentest him , not to condemn , but save the world , was sent to save none but that foresaid few , set number of elect ones , of which number we could find little ground to hope we were ( sith an hundred to one were not ) any more then if an hundred were sentenced to die , and but one of them to be saved , and a pardon should be proclaimed to them all conditionally , that every man believed for himself , that he were the man to whom the pardon is intended , any one man could have ground of confidence , that himself was he ; and so we were quite discouraged by the preachers of thy grace from believing the salvation to be intended to us , since an hundred to one it was not ; and they told us , that the said saviour did not die for all , but for a few , even the said choice ones , whereupon , though he was held forth to us all , to be believed in , as the common salvation , in thy revealed will ( as they call it ) on pain of eternal condemnation to every one of us , that should not believe in him , as our lord , and our god , and saviour , and with promises or eternall life to us all , conditionally we would all so believe ; yet we could not see how this could rationally hang together , or how we could all truly have believed such a thing , every man of us for himself ( without the most of us should have believed a lie , and we thought , whatever they said , that thou wouldst have us all believe no more then the truth , and not have any of us believe , much lesse be damned for not believing a lie ) we could not see , though they bad us every one believe in christ as ours , how the most of us had a christ to believe in as ours , sith they told us al●o , he was not intended to all to whom he is offered , but to a very few even of them , & since we were by themselves , who bade us believe in him , every of us as our salvation , bad to believe this doctrine also , on pain of being held armenians , socinians , and hereticks in the church , that he did not offer himself a ransome for all ( as the scripture in plain terms sayes he did ) but as much as be is offered to us all , yet he offered himself not for all , but only for the foresaid few ; and that by a●l and every one in the scripture , and the lost ones , and sinners , and ungodly , and the whole world , which he is said to die for , we must at no hand understand a●l indeed , nor think that thy meaning was as thy words imported , nor according to the literal sense of them , for then we might mistake thee ; but that by all and every one , the whole world , thou meanest but a very few only , and by sinners and ungodly , thy elect ones only , neither could we see ( upon the account of their personal , particular principles ) as universal as thy tenders of christ to us all were , or at least theirs in thy name , that we could possibly believe the truth , if we should all have believed in him as ours , or that we could all have a share in him ; and we saw , that it being so , that he was not intended to be a saviour to every man to whom he is offered , some men had no saviour to believe in , as their , and for ought we saw , 't was an hundred to one but we might be the men , and to believe it that he was ours , we had no ground from their doctrine for such a faith , and so might if we had , yea must most of us , if we had believed it , have believed a lye ; and tho sayest , thou wilt damn men for not believing the truth , and wilt thou now damn all us for believing the truth ? for he was not intended by thee , if our ministers did not belye thee to us , to be our saviour who are reprobates , and we did believe him not to be so , according as it proves , and so our faith was of the truth , and if we all had believed it , that he died for every of us , it had been a lye ( if our learned leaders did not lye ) and wilt thou now damn us for not believing that , which if we had believed , all of us , an hundred to one , but the most of us must have believed a lye , and that which was not so ? if we had believed it we had been deceived , for 't was not so , it their doctrine be true ; and now we did not believe it , we are to be condemned , because we believe not in thy son , and apply him not every one to our selves , in particular , to whose salvation he was never appointed , but in thy unalterable decree before ever we were born ( though offered to us a ours upn equal terms ( as they say ) with the elect , whose only in particular be●is ) designed altogether to another purpose , even to be the salvation of some few , but the unavoidable further condemnation of us reprobates , and only to leave us the more excuseless in our suffering of it . and howbeit its true , we did not obey the gospel , nor do thy will , we must need confess , in order unto life , yet it was never savingly nor sufficiently manifested to us in all our lives ( as , they said ) nor was any measure of that true light in which is the life , nor one grain of that ( as our divines told us ) which is sufficient for us to bring us to life vouchsaf'd , but a natural light , in attending to which , had we ever so well heeded or improved it , 't would not have helpt us , imparted to us only , a certain common grace and light ( as they told us ) which had we answered , it could have avail'd us nothing , as to salvation ; and a talent , which had we traded with ( as they tell us ) and doubled , it ●ad encreased into but more of the same kind , and common sort , not obtain'd any . special , nor ( what ere the scripture seems to say to the contrary , which we poor ignorants durst not presume to walk by our sense of , but to take , as interpreted by our textmen and churchmen ) have let us into thy joy . and whereas thou swearest thou wouldst not have had us died , but much rather lived if we would , had we but known indeed , as we never did ( sith we were told that was free-will , a most fearful damnable doctrine ) that we had had but arbitrium liberatum , a freed will vouchsafed us from thee , whereby to chuse life , when life and death was set before us , or but a power wrought in us from thee to have will'd and done what thou requiredst , we might happily have chosen life , and have come and to turn'd thee , then we had either turned to thee , or else been utterly inexcusable ( we confess ) and thy wayes had been as equal as thou sayest they are , and our blood had been altogether on our own heads , and our destruction of our selves alone ; had there been but any of that sufficient help that is in thee vouchsafed to us from thee , it would habe been tryed then whether we would have turned to thee or no : but alas , lord , thou know'st we were told ( and we thought it our duty on pain of damnation to take all for truth that our church-men , and school-men , and learned doctors , and well read men in the scriptures , and unviersity-made minister told us ) that all men had not , and that few have so much as sufficient light or power at all to will or do , or think good communicated to them from thee ; we know indeed that without thee nothing can be done , and that all mans sufficiency to good must come from thee : but now thou queriest of us , why we did not do thy will , and wilt judge us for the neglect of it ; we beseech thee lord consider and pity us , we never knew yee that we were under power and possibility , form the most , and best , and greatest measure of ability , grance and light given to us to know , or do that will , thou now art going to require with vengeance the violation of at our hands ; for if it were so , as some said indeed ( viz. the qua. seeming also to bring scripture for it ) that we and all men have , or had , though n●ne of our selves , yet some , and so much in our selves of it , as we should have stood justified , accepted , uncondemned in improving , and not have had that sin thou sayest we have now no cloak for ; had we known it , we hope we should have done according to it , but being out of hope of having strength to overcome , we sate still in di●couragement and despair , for our ministers told us , the qua. were lyar's and seducers , not to be believed , and their doctrine damuable ; ou● ministers belyed thee to us , as a hard master , reaping where thou hast not sowed , and gathering where thou hast not strawed , and requiring that of us , even that we should turn to thee and live , which thou ( as they say ) dost not enable by light and grace enough , or suitable thereto , scarce one of a thousand , and so we were disheartned from trading with the talent we had , and hid , and laid it not out , as believing we had as good do nothing at all , as nothing to the purpose ; and upon many more such like considerations as there , seeing we were but-mocked by our ministers , telling us of life , and tendring it to us , yet telling us as their faith , and as that which must be ours , that it belongs but to few , and that this was thy secret will , whatever thy revealed will was ( they profested also to be men acquainted with thy secrets ) we gave our selves over to security , to eat , and drink , and do no good , and satisfie our wills in evil , for let us do better or worse , or the best and most which the best and most of any of us reprobates could do , we saw we could but die ; and if we happened not to be of the few elected on es to life , that are ordain'd to be brought to it some time or other ( as a thousand to one we saw we were not ) we must unavoidably die , and perish without hope or remedy : from such evil communications of our clergy , which corrupted good manners , concluding , that we could do no good without thee , and had no grace to do good given us from thee , we said , let us eat , and drink , for tomorrow we di● ; therefore let us be excused lord and held guiltless , the rather because we were in ignorance and unbelief of this truth , that we could do ought towards our own salvation by any power or measure of sufficient grace imparted to us from thy self , or at least shew us mercy as thou didst to paul , who obtained it of thee , that in him thou mightest shew forth an example of thy long-suffering goodness and patience to poor sinners in ●ime to come , even to a●l that ever should live ungodly , tim. . for as he , so we , seeing our teachers traduced us so to think of the qua. that now we find hold the truth , supp●sed innocently , or as least ignorantly , that they were enemies to god , christ , scriptures , word of god , righteousness of christ , iustification by him alone , seduced and seducres , and the vilest persons on earth , and so thought verily that we did thee service in persecuting , killing , stoning , stocking , mocking , haling them out of synagogues , and into prisons , little deeming what we now see , that men are not accepted and condemned the more for not knowing so much ( as our professors tell us ) of this and that notion of doctrine , and point of divinity in the head , as for not doing that ( be it little or more ) that is already made known with all the heart , and that had we done thy will but so far as ' ●is made known , we ( as christ said indeed ) should have known more and more of the different doctrines that were , which were of god , and which men , for meer money and maintenance , flesh and livelihoods sake , taught only of themselves . i say , may not the reprobates , even in these nations so plead ? and can the light and grace of god given and tendred to them , leave them without excuse at all , if it be not at all sufficient , if never so well improved , to lead them to life and salvation ? can the law in their hearts accuse them doing ill , and not justifie them doing well ? will it kill them if they break it , and kill them if they obey it also ? but how much more excuse the poor ethnicks ( as ye call them ) that have nothing but that light within of nature ( as ye term it ) which ye your selves sometimes seem to confess , and say excused them ; as t. d. page . we may suppose the heathen might say , had we known of a remedy , we would have made use of it ; yea , thou deniest not t. d. nor do any of you , but that the work of the law written in the hearts of all is accusing and excusing , and that the said law within is sufficient to both these , i. o. page . owns the same , saying , that by the light within , the heathens thoughts excuse or accuse , according as the cons●ience thereby enlightned bears inward witness both of the ius , and the fact , and that the moral instinct of good and evil that is within , by that is seconded by a self-judgement , i. e. an inward justifying , clearing , and acquitting , as it s answered , or else a terrifying and condemning as it s transgrest : this therefore is another argument , of the common lights sufficiency to save from condemnation such as walk by it , from which i may conclude it . arg. . that which can and doth excuse its observers , does not only serve to restrain sin , and to leave he transgressors of it without excuse , but also save from condemnation ; but the law in the heats of heathens , excuses it observers , witness rom. . . from which place ye are fain all to confess the same , where it s said , that by the work of the law which the heathen shewed written in their hearts , their inward thoughts not only accuse , but excuse ; yea , very ethnicks are not left without plea or excuse by it , if it be not sufficient to save ( as is shewed above ) asd as t. d. confesses , page . pamp. we may suppose ( quoth he ) the heathen might say , had we known of a remedy , we would have made use of it ; therefore it not only leaves without excuse , when men violate it , but saves from condemnation such as obey it . that 's a strange unheard of kind of law , that kills as well its keepers as its breakers , or that takes vengeance on the violaters of it , and cannot keep the keepers of it from the vengeance of it neither ; yet t. d. sayes , page . pamp. the light condemns the heathen when they dis●b●y it , but cannot save them though they do obey it ; indeed he adds without christ ; and so say i too ; but that light is in them from christ , and so if it save them , as it does if they obey it , it saves them not without him , for it s he that saves them by it ; but our diviners divine enough to the contrary , to the utter confutation of themselves in this , when by their own confession , the common light in the conscience , they more commonly , then properly call natural , doth not only accuse such as go from it , but also excuse such as keep to and walk by it within themselves ; for is not iustification , non-condemnation , absolution , and consequently salvation from guilt and wrath , where excusation is , as well as guilt , wrath , and condemnation , where accusation , and no excuse ? is it possible there should be any condemnation , where no transgression , but an answering to the law lent men to live by ? for sin ( as before ) is but the transgression of the law or light that every one hath , and as where no law is , so where no breach is of the law where it is , there 's no transgression , and where the conscience gives a good answer , and the heart by the light in it , that shews ius and factum , condemns not , doth god condemn ? is there not acceptance , boldness , and confidence toward him , as there is fear , terrour , wrath , and condemnation from god where it doth condemn ? yea , your selves confess it , yet the law in the heart , the light is sufficient to accuse , yea , and excuse well and ill doing respectively , but not to save , justifie , or give life , say our light treacherous prophets , dark divines , and lifeless leaders . ob. the letter kills , cannot give life . rep. true , but why is it ? but because it s desobeyed , and cannot give ability to any to do what it requires : the law , or light , and gospel , and all , kills such as transgress it , i say , the gospel it self condemns , but whom is it ? none but such as hate and take not heed to it , that thereby they may come from under the curse and death , into the life it calls for , else , it being the power of god to the salvation of such as believe in it , life should be by the light , one way more then it could come by by the letter ; for the letter could keep them that keep it , from the curse denounced in it to the breakers of it , yet cannot give any an ability to keep it : but the light is not only able to acquit , justifie , clear , absolve , secure , and save from wrath all such as believe in , and obey it , but al o to enable such as look to it , and impower them more and more to obey and walk by it ( and consequently by the letter , which cannot be transgressed by such as abide in the light ) all such as singly come to it , and continue waiting on the lord in it . object . the law cannot give life , if it could , righteousness should be by the law , gal. . . rep. true , the law in the letter , the old testament , which he there speaks of , as in opposition to the new , which is the gospel , the light , and spirit , cannot , in regard of the weakness of flesh to fulfil it , and its weakness to enable any to the fulfilling of it ; for the righteousness declared and required therein must be performed , or else it utters nothing but accusation and cursing , and yet to perform that righteousness , the letter can no wise impower . but the law , which is the light in the spirit , that is and comes from christ into the conscience , is the law of life , forasmuch as , howbeit it taketh vengeance en mens inventions , and ministers first judgement and condemnation to the transgressors for transgression , and wrath on the evil doer and his evil deeds , yet when it hath condemned sin in the flesh , wherein it is committed , so long , till it hath condemned it out of the flesh , and brought forth judgement , in th●se that wait on it , unto victory over the sin that is judged , it ministers the righteousness , and the peace , and the liberty from the sin , and the life of god it self , it requires , calls for , and through the judgement leads too , and then justifies those whom it hath this way enabled to perform it . in both which respects ( though the law of the letter is not so ) yet the law of the spirit of life , which is the light in christ , and in us from him , sith it both . enables the followers of it to fulfil it ; and . secures from wrath and condemnation the fulfillers of it , who e're they are ( iew or ge●tile , such as have the letter without , or have it not ) that obey it ; it is not sufficient only to accuse the rebels against it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and condemn them within themselves , but also ( as utterly insufficient to save and bring to life , utcunque ei attendentes , such as never so punctually observe and perform it , as our preachers prate it is ) altogether , even every way sufficient to save to the utmost , all such as come to god by christ , from whom it comes , and to christ in it : according to rom. . , , , . there is now therefore no condemnation to them which are in christ iesus , who walk not after the flesh , but after the spirit , for th● law of the spirit of life in christ iesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death . for what the law could not do , in that it was weak through the flesh , god sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh , and for sin , condemned sin in the flesh : that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us , who walk not after the flesh , but after the spirit . thus then it is evident , that the law of god ( which is not the letter of it ) but the light , is powerfull and sufficient to save ( save only that men turn from , and transgresse it , and that it is universal , and in all men , is as evident out of rom. . , . where it is said , that those ye call heathen , who have not the outward literal copy of it , do shew the work of the law written in their hearts , which w●rk of the law t. d. ( who yet grants the law it self to be spiritual ) in his meer natural understanding , calls natural , as if the work of the law of god , which is spiritual and perfect , were not spiritual as the law it self is , which work or effect of the law , psalm . , , . is said to be the conversion of the s●ul , rejoycing the heart , enlightning the eyes , cleansing , purifying , &c. and not only the shewing of sin and good , and censuring for the obedience o● disobedience ( as t. d. dotes ) who undertaking to teach g. w. what the work of the law is , and how it differs from the law it self , p. . pamp. understands neither what he himself sayes , nor whereof he affirms , which works of the law the scripture there mentions , which di●covers t. ds. ignorance of the works or effects of the law , if they be natural i know not what ●s ▪ spiritual ; and yet to get out of that absurdity , in proof of it he runs into another , saying in the next clause thus ; viz. the heathen do by nature the things contained in the law ; as if that were corrupt nature in the heathen that did conform them to the law ; when as the nature there spoken of , by which they are said to do the things of the law , is , that rature , after which god at first made man upright , and after his own image , in righteousness and holiness of truth , before they sinned and run out into their own inventions , and so fell short thereof ▪ which nature and image is in it self , ●are , divine , perfect in reason and understanding , and doing th● mind and will of god , though men mostly become degenerated . from that into another swinish , brutish nature , even the nature and image of the serpent , the subtillest of beasts , of the devil and satan himself , and so of men ( as they were made ) become beasts of the field , and of noble vines of gods planting in his garden at first , and wholly a right seed , turning from the light into the darkness of their own vain thoughts and imaginations , became a seed of evil doers , and a degenerate plant of a strange vine unto the lord ; in which sta●u corrupto , and by which contrary nature ( not created by god , but contracted to themselves ) the other nature , image , and glory of god , which when man sinned crept inward , lies hid and covered in them , till by the light of god , which is given to that end , they are , as by a line or clew , led down into themselves , and through the laborynth of their own learning and lusts , which lies a top of it , to find it out again , and till by the said light the house be swept , and the lost money seen , and that swinish nature destroyed , and the lost sheep sought out and saved , and till the works and image of the serpent , who hath in the dark stampt his own likeness on them , be again defaced , and till the tares which he hath sowed in the night , while men slept , in the field or inner world of the heart , and that earth which hath overgrown the other , and brought forth bria●s and thornes , weeds , neetles , thistles , &c. which is accursed , be burnt up and consumed , from above that which brings forth herbs meet for the masters use , to which the blessing is , by the spirit of judgement and of burning ; in which selfish nature , which is that of cain , and ishmael , and esau ( the three elder ) that have no acceptance , men will be sacrificing , serving , and glorying in righteousnesses and church-works of their own devising , which all are abomination with god , because done in that same nature still in which they are disobedient , sinning , and serving divers lusts , and so by that nature become as well in their very righteousness , as in their wickedness , children of gods wrath , ephes. . . tit. . . incurring his displeasure by their doing of such things , as are not only besides , but against the law or light of god in the conscience , and contrary to that pure primitive nature , by which only ( as men by the light come back to it , as many do , without the letter ) the things contained in the holy law can be done : and this contradicts that grosly absurd , sottish , false , blind , and ignorant assertion of t. d. which as a. parker related to me , he uttered in a discourse with him at sandwich , before many people , since those three more publick disputes held by r. h. g. w. and my self with him and his confederates and associates against us ( who yet are at odds amongst themselves , some prclatick , some presbyterian , some independent ) viz. that it is the corrupt nature , by which the nations are said , rom. . to do the things contained in the law : which is , i say , the grossest absurdity , false doctrine , and contradiction to the scripture that can well-nigh possibly be given ; for by that corrupt , sinning nature ( by the yet t. d. is not ashamed , and blushes not to say , men do the things c●ntained in gods law , alias , keep , obey , observe , conform to gods law , which is the pure light shining in the conscience , that is , spiritual , holy , just , and good , that never did , nor can p●ssibly consent to the least sin , or do other then reprove and condemn it in the heart . ) i say by that corrupt nature ( which men have by the fall from god , who made them upright , contracted to themselves , which is the very enmity it self against god and all good ) men do , and can do no other , then sin against god , and do the things that are not contained or commanded in , but are contrary to the law , and walk in the trespasses and sins , in which they lie dead , according to the common course and custome of the world while it lies in the wickedness , not minding the light , according to the prince of the power of the air , the spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience , and have their conversation in the lusts of the flesh , fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind , drinking in iniquity as naturally as the beast drinks in water , without satisfaction , working uncleanness with greediness , iohn . , , , , , . and so are by that nature children of wrath : but in respect of which said pure primitive nature some gentiles that have not the letter , but the light of god , and christ within , leading them back into it out of that corrupt one , by which light they are a law to themselves before god , are said to perform by nature what things are required in the law , which are ( as ye say ) moral duties indeed , yet such as ( saving your ignorance in that ) are truly righteous and acceptable with god , and evangelical , being done in christ , though they know not his person , whilst done in his light ; for men may do much by the light that comes from the sun , while they see not the body of the sun it self , and be guided and strengthened to do much by the light of god and christ , that is his will , and acceptable , and good , though yet they have not heard of , nor known him so much , as some that hear and read of such things by the letter , as to his appearance in that body of flesh or meer external incarnation ; witness cornelius , whose prayers and almes were heard and accepted , being done by one that feared god , and eschewed the evil , which by the light he had discovered , whilst as yet he had not heard of christs personal birth , life , death , or resurrection , acts . . . &c. yea , every moral duty that is done in some obedience to the light that is in the conscience , and not for base ends and glory of men ( which ends have been and are found more among many literarists , iews , and christians too , then among many that by them have been ( lighted as heathens ) are evangelical also , yea , whatever is done from an honest , and not selfish principle in the light or law in the heart , is of the same nature as that both moral and evangelical law is , even spiritual , and holy , and iust , and good , and all transgression that is acted against the law , is not only against the light of god and christ , whose commandment that is , and against the gospel or free promise of life held forth also therein , but also against nature , not that corrupt na●u●e into which men are run ( for the sin is committed in that ) but that divine nature , or similitude of god , or right reason , in which men stood at first , til they ran out into a reasonless kind of reason of their own , which is not after god , a remnant of whose nature is in man still , and his light in the conscience , which is right reason it s●lf , leads to it● and therefore all sinners , who are in the deeds of darkness , and out of the true faith of christ , which is in his light , are said to do things contrary to nature ( though pleasing and answerable to the viperous nature they are gone out into ) rom. . : : : : : : : : . and to be without natural affection , or against nature , unnatural and unreasonable , tim. . . thes. . . and wicked , for all men that have the true light in them , have not faith in it . i say then , the heathen who have not the letter , by the light of god , which is saving , are a law unto themselves , and do shew the work of the law written in their hearts , their conscience also , by the law inlightned , bearing witness within them , and their thoughts thereby accusing and excusing one another so that the law is not only a light , and saving , but universal also and common , in some measure , to all men . to which may be added as an argument ( ad hominem at least to the stopping of their mouth ) in proof of the universality of christs enlightning all men , another consideration out of r. b. and i. t. his own book , and that is , the need that all men that come into the world have of light from christ , and the universal necessity of christs enlightning them all , because of that universal corruption and blindness , which is asserted by them to be in all men at birth . p. , . john . . where it is said of man coming i●to the world , * must be meant ( say they ) of humane birth , and accordingly this point is thence ( say they ) deducible . that every one that comes into the world needs light from christ , which position ( say they ) is true , . because every man is bo●n destitute of spiritual light in the things of god , concerning his duty , and the way of salvation . . because every man is liable to death , and trouble , and wrath , and evil from god , as he is born into the world ; and christ came into the world to remove both these sorts of darkness , and none else can do it . these are the express words of these two men , r. b. i. t. from which howbeit they most unreasonably conclude against our doctrine , saying , the former of these overthrows the main position of the qua. that every man hath a light within him sufficient to guide him , so as that following it , he may please god , and be saved without the light of scriptures , or preaching of publick teachers . yet i do and may most truly argue and conclude , to the fuller establishing of the said position from their own words on this wise . arg. . if every man that comes into the world needs light from christ , and there be a necessity of christs enlightning , in regard that every man is irrecoverably lost else , and not some only , then christ doth enlighten ( so far at least as to a possibility for salvation ) every man , and not few men only ; otherwise god were ( as is abovesaid ) a most apparent respecter of mens persons ( as he is not ) and his wayes were not equal ( as they are ) and his words were not true ( as they are ) when he sayes he would have all men to be saved ( unless they will die ) and to come to the knowledge of the truth , and such like ; nor were his clearing himself and charging of men that perish right ( as it is ) when he sayes , their destruction is of themselves , but in him is their help ; nor were his iudgements iust and righteous ( as they are ) in condemning men for not believing in the light , while they had it , when they never had it , nor were his pretended great love , rich grace , matchless mercy to all pe●ple in christs birth , luke . ● iohn . : : . so sincere ( as it is ) but ra●h●r feigned ; sith ( else ) he did not so much as put them all into a possibility of coming out of their m●sery , but rather left a thousand to one to perish in it unavoidably without remedy ; nor were his fairest offers of salvation and life to all , if they will walkin his light , so fair ( as they are ) but meer mockage , since else he had not given them any measure of any such light as could lead them to it ; nor were his saying , what could i have done more for them that i have not done ? any other then a lye ( as it is not ) since else he had not done so much as was needful , yea so absolutely necessary towards their living , that it was not possible they should live without it , when he both could , should , and ought in equity , by some measure of true light , to have made them capable to come to life , and see their way to it . but every man needs light from christ , and there is necessity ( in respect that every man ( else ) is blinded by him to his destruction , as well as some men ) of christs enlightning with his true and saving light , every man as well as some men only ; this we need not prove , sith r. b. and i. t. assert it so universally of every man that cometh into the world . therefore undoubtedly , more or lesse , christ hath with true saving light enlightned every man , and not some few men only . chap. v. i shall now betake my self to take some brief view of r.bs. and i.ts. trivial talk , and to consider some of their inconsiderable arguings , and confused oppositions to the contrary , at least so many as whereby men may judge probably of what sort the rest are , who in disproof of the saving sufficiency of the light in every man ( which they call sometimes the light that comes from god , sometimes every mans own light ) to lead him unto god , have mustered up together no less then thirty or forty arguments and reasons , as they call them , not one of all which hath so much weight in it , as can truly render it worthy of the name of a reason in that case its brought for : they lie all together in one litter , between page . and . making up the whole sixth of those nine dark sermons , and no small part of the seventh , not more seemingly for , then shamefully against the true light there said to enlighten every man that comes into the world , prated out from iohn . . by i. tom. and back't by r. baxter . their thirty arguments , to which they add ten reasons of their own , they say , are out of scripture , and so i confess they are in one sense , there being not one at all of them to be found either in , or so much as truly deduced from the scripture . the scriptures the first argument is ( far ) fetch 't from , are rom. . . none understands , none seeks after god , cor. . . the natural man discerns not the things of the spirit , &c. gen. . . and . . every imagination of mans heart is only evil , &c. jer. . . every man is bruitish in his knowledge , jer. . . the heart is deceitful above all things ; whence they argue thus , their light , of whom these things are said , is not a safe rule to guide them into the pleasing of god , but these things are said of all , or some men ; therefore every mans light in him , is not a safe guide to god. rep. we confess these things are said not of some only , but of all men , as they are in the fall , who are all gone out of the way : but what of that ? are all men therefore , because gone out without any measure of light sufficient to guide into the way again ? in that ali●nation none seeks god ; are all then without any of that true light , wherein god is to be found of such as will seek him in it ? all natural men ( such as all are , till they turn to be led by the light and spirit ) by their meer animal wisdome , see not spiritual things : are all therefore without the least measure of that spirit and spiritual light ; that shews them , viz. the law of god in their minds , which is spiritual , lusting in them against the flesh , though they are carnal ? every mans imagination and thoughts are evil , every man is b●●itish in his own knowledge , every mans heart , as he is gone out from the truth told by god within himself , after the devil that abode not in it , is there therefore true light in no man that manifests the deceits of his heart in some wise to him ? is that truth in no man which he is to abide in , and which if he abide in it , it will teach him the will of god ? i say , is no measure of this in no men ? for this argument of these men , could it conclude any man to be without the said sufficient light ( as it does not , there being no consequence in it ) would consequently conclude every man to be without it , as he is in the fall , and come out into the world , and then instead of reading that text , viz. iohn . . that i. tombs talks from , and r. b. repeats his sermons on thus ; that was the true light that enlightens every man that comes into the world , as 't is in the bible ; or thus , that was the true light that enlighteneth the elect , or some few men , or some of all sorts , &c. as i. o. t. d. r. b. i. t. interpret it besides the literal sense and proper import of the term every man , we must henceforth read thus ▪ viz. the true light that enlighteneth no man that comes into the world , every man being bruitish , every mans heart ( till he comes to the light that 's come to him ) being deceitful as well as any mans ; and so the saving , grace and light shall no more be coop't up in a corner among a few , but be allowed no place in the world of any mans heart at all ; but who will say thus ( as they say in effect ) but such as are become bruitish , and besotted with them ? and if they tell us they speak and mean not of gods light here , but of mans own light , as no good guide to god , what do they band against the q●akers for then , and bend the force of their frivolous argument against them ? who look upon every mans own light , and thoughts , and imagination of his heart , wisdome , knowledge , and understanding , which he is gone out into , from gods light , to be natural , and weak , and foolishness , and darkness , as much and more then themselves ( who are yet found in no other ) for whatever they mean when they prate against the light the qua. testifie to , calling it natural , mans own , and blindne●s , and darkness , which andabato um more , they confusedly fight against in their dark minds , under the terms sometimes of the true light christ bids men believe in , that they may be the children of it , which is no other then the gospel light of god and christ himself , sometimes of every mans own light , mans own thoughts , imaginations , * yet * the qua. plead for nothing in man that is meerly of man , but for that light alone which is of god , and by which what is to be known of god , god manifests in man , yea in all men , the very heathen that have not the scripture , which light is that law in the mind , which is not evil nor natural , but holy , just , good , and spiritual , by which alone , though these meer humanists and naturalists discern them not , the things of the spirit of god are discerned , every man in the fall is become bruitish , and , like the bruit beast of the field , lives more by sense then reason , is not regulated by right reason in what he does , it may as well therefore be concluded , that all men have not the least measure of reason in them , while they live besides it , as these men conclude from mens living besides the light , in the deeds of darkness , that therefore they have no light in them ; but an argument it is rather , that these pastors are like those ier. . . . who are become bruitish , and have not sought the lord in his light , in that they argue so bruitishly , not only besides the spiritual light of the lord , which would lead them to a right understanding of the truth , but also below that common sense and reason that naturally belongs to man , for which therefore woe unto them , they shall not prosper , and all their flocks shall be scattered , for which a great commotion is already come out of the north , to make their cities , their assemblies defolate , as a den of dragons . thus far as to r.b. and i.ts. first argument , by which men may judge of the constitution of the rest , which are all of the same complexion . the second is drawn from act. . . . rom. . . . . the sum of which in short is this ; the most improved gentiles ( for all that light which was in them ) were in all things too superstitious , were carried about to dumb idols as they were led , had their foolish hearts darkned about their thoughts of god , worshipped him ignorantly , and such like ; therefore they , much less the most barbarous , and consequently none of the gentiles , who had not the scripture , nor such other teaching as gods people were taught by , had not a light in them that was sufficient without the scripture to guide them to god , &c. rep. that the gentiles were generally superstitious , fool●sh , dark , blind , idolatrous , and ignorant in their worshippings of god , i deny not ; howbeit , i close not cordially with that clause ( the most improved ) in the antecedent , for 't was through non-improvement of the light they had ; and because at the best they were ill improved in it , that they became so , for had they heeded the light , they had been led out of idols , to the knowledge of god by it , for what is to be known of god , is by it manifest in them , rom. . . but what if the best improved gentiles were so as ye say , vain in their thoughts , &c. they might have better improved the light then they did , and the reason why they were so fortishly superstitious was , not because they had not sufficient light to lead them in the true knowledge of god and his worship , and direct them to discern the truth , but because they look't not to the light , because they went out from the light they had , by which they had some measure of the knowledge of god , into their own wisdome , leaning to their own understanding , and so became vain ; therefore is it said , they were without excuse , because when they knew god , they glorified him not as god , neither were thankful , but became vain in their imaginations , and their foolish heart was darkned , and professing themselves to be wise , they became fools , and changed the glory of god into an image , and changed the truth of god into a lye , and worshipped and served the creature more then the creator , not liking to retain him ( and that true worship of him , which the light would have led them to ) in their knowledge , and the gentiles there were not so vain and foolish , ignorant of god , and superstitious for want of light to guide them , as r. b. t. d. dote they were , to gods true worship , but for want of being guided by the light they had : so what 's this to their purpose ? who sees not the blindness , weakness , folly , nakedness , and falsity of this argument ? one absurdity in which also more notable in it then the rest is this , viz. that in the conclusion , is inferred aliud a negaro , another thing then that which is denied by the qua. and undertaken to be proved against them by themselves ; for therefore , say they , the gentiles who had not the scripture , nor such other teaching as gods people are taught by , had not a light sufficient , &c. the words in which conclusion are true , though nihil ad rhombum , if there be any such gentiles that have neither scripture , nor such other teaching ( mark that phrase foisted in by them , whereby they conclude another matter then is denied by us in the question in hand ; for the gentiles that have not the other teaching , i. e. that of the light within , have not the light within that 's true , who doubts it , but none such are to be found that have not that light and grace in some measure by which god teaches his and al● people , though most gentiles are found destitute of an outward letter ) as god teaches his people by , which other teaching is that of the light within , which is that other , yea , that chief teaching god teaches his and all people by , whether they learn by it yea or nay , i shall say more to them when i see them , but at present i know none such , nor ever have done . before i pass to the third argument of r. b. i. t. from this second , i shall consider their tenth and thirteenth arguments , which are co-inciden , and in effect the same with this second , by which three arguments ( which yet in substance are but one ) i. o. and t. d. both are found fencing in their fool●sh minds , together with them , against all mens having a sufficient light to guide them into the true saving knowledge of god , his worship , and the mystery of his kingdome , about which i have dealt with t. d. already in p. of my first exercitation , who all urge peoples ignorance of the things of god , his worship , and mystery of his gospel and kingdome , in proof of their want of a light whereby they might know them , which is such an idotish , ignorant piece of arguing , as he makes who argues a non actu ad non potentiam , a non esse ad non posse , which is as silly as to conclude , that becau●e a man sits still , therefore he cannot go , or he hath no power to walk , because when he shuts his eyes , and neither will , nor does see the sun , therefore he never could see it , for which a man would be hissed out of the schools by very boyes . as for r. b. and i. t. they are so enamoured with the eminency and and strength of this their argument ( the childishness and weakness of which is evident to any , save such whose own it is so , that ( being blind at home ) they will not own the blindness and absurdness of it that they seem to put more stress upon it , then on all the rest beside . hereupon it hath more then one , or two , or three places in their book , viz. not only in the page forecited ; but also page . and page . where they conclude , that because men stumble , and their imaginations are evil , their hearts deceitful and wicked , therefore they want light to direct them , and to rectifie their thoughts ; if men stumble and fall , it s an argument ( say they ) they want light , of such corruption want of light to guide us in the way to happiness ( oh gross ) is a chief part : ieremies sayings , every man is bruit●sh , &c. the heart is deceitful , &c. do express such a destitution of light , truth , &c. also page . and . where their tenth and thirteenth arguments ( which are one , and wrested from sundry texts , viz. rom. . . . cor. . . . col. . . . tim. . . matth. . . . mat. . . from all which it follows , that all men have not some saving light as fully , as the b●●re goes freely ●o the stake ) are on this wise : the mystery of god was hid from the gentiles , god hid the things concerning the knowledge of himself from some , when he revealed them to others , and 't was given to some ( as a special gift quoth t. d. who●e words and argument , this is , above spoken to at large by me ) to know the mysteries of the kingdome , not to others ; therefore every man hath not a light in him , as a sufficient guide to direct him to god. as for i. o. his way of argumentation against the sufficiency of this light within to save , is in sum the same : among his other things ; or rather nothings to the purpose , of which he sayes , contrarium proba●t , they prove the contrary , to our assertion of the lights sufficiency to save , he names the universal experience of all ages , from the beginning of the world to this day ▪ quis enim lucis huius ductu ad ver●●● dei cognitionem pervene●t ? qui post homines natos ea op●ime usi surt , &c. ex. . s●●o . for who ever came to the true knowledge of god by the guidance of this light ? those among all men who have best of all improved it , have every man of them become vain in their imaginaons , and their foolish heart hath been darkned ; in all which fore-cited argumentative matter , these four men reason unreas●nably , from mens not knowing and being saved by the ●●ne light , to their wanting of the true light to know and be saved by , when as it follows not at all , that becuse they know not , and are not saved , therefore they are destitute of light , but the cause of their perishing in ignorance , is not walking in what they have , not because they have not sufficient light to walk by , or are not put into possibility of k●owledge to salvation by some measure of that light which is saving : their syllogiring is as silly in this , as to say of a man that voluntarily hoodw●inks himself , he does not see , therefore he cannot , that man stumbles and falls , therefore he cannot do otherwise , when yet he may , but that he , blind-folds his own eyes ( or gives way to others to do it ) from seeing his way , as most men do to the god of this world , lest the light of the gospel , which they have , because it reproves them , should shine out in them , and as a potentia ad actum , so a non actu ad 〈…〉 non est confequentia 〈◊〉 men can no more wisely nor 〈◊〉 infer from mens not knowing of god truly a non-ability or insufficiency in that light they have ( if they seek him in it ) to reveal him , and make him truly known , then from the being of a power , to a necessity of the act , which is a non sequitur with a witness : we know that most men know not the mysteries of the ●●ingdome , but 't is not because they may not , or 〈◊〉 , for w●●● of light , but because they will not come to the light by which they may : and therefore when as the question is aske 〈◊〉 the light which is in some measure in the con●cience of all men , be sufficient to make kno●● god savingly , why do not all come to be saved by the knowledge of him , whom to know is life eternal ? 〈◊〉 , because they give not up to be guided by it , and come not to it when its 〈◊〉 to them , in order to their salvation ; for god sent it 〈◊〉 the world , 〈…〉 would , though the world is condemned by it , through their not coming to it , but that the world through it might be saved , for the light which judges the sin , is saving to the soul , and by it , that one law giver , who is able both to save and destroy , doth both judge and destroy the works of the devil in men ( for which end he is manifested in the world ) and men , as they will not be weaned nor saved from those works , and saves also from those destructive works , all such souls as give up to be guided by it . and firh● i. o. sayes , ● who●ever came● to the true knowledge of god by the guidance of this light ? i answer , all that ever did come to the true knowledge of god at all , and those ( as little as these men know them ) are not a few ( though few in comparison of those that are ignorant ) who by walking in tha● līght , while they had it ; have come to experience that life of god , which is yet hid from you wise and prudent ones , and ever will be more● and more , as ye are alienated from this light within yourselves , much more while ●ye are such vnter banders of your selves against both it , and the children of it . and whereas thou i. o. sayest , qui●ea optim●usi●sunt , &c. they who have best of all improved it , are become vain , &c. thou utterest thou know'st not what ; for rom. . . which thou citest●in proof thereof , doth no less service to the truth , then to disprove that thy false assertion , for all who look not beside the light ; may see it speaks not at all of as well improve it , but of such as improved it not ●at all , but when they knew god by it , who ver . . by it manifested in them 〈◊〉 was in 〈◊〉 of himself , glorified him not as god , nor were thankful ● answerably , no● 〈◊〉 to retain him in their knowledge , but ran from his ●light into their own thoughts , and so into the things which they knew the iudgements of god and death were due unto the doers of . and as for the mysteries of the gospel , 't is true , they are hid from the most , and 't is given to some to know them , not to others : bat look ye blind , that ye may see , how came they to be hid from some ? why was it given to some , and not to others to know them ? and who were those others that knew them not ? were they such as could never see them , meerly for want of light to shew them ? doth the text of your own alledging , viz. matth. . . . . . . in proof of that your sigment say so ? doth i ̄t not plainly say , as we say , against you , that it was because first there was a time wherein they might have seem them but would not , had ears to hear , but stopt them , eyes to see , but closed them , beca●se they seeing s●w not , hearing heard not , ●or would understand , nor perceive , nor be converted , nor healed , when god would have converted and healed them , and such like ? so qui● boc omne ad doct●um delirium ● what 's all this to dreams of our doctors , who from thence , and such like places as overthrow themselves , divine out arguments against all mens having sufficient light , speaking evil of the light ; and iudging the light as imperfect , which is the law of god , which is perfect in each measure of it , of which they will not be d●ers , but iudges ; for which judging and evill speaking of what they know not ( while in what they know naturally , and but psuchicos , animally , as bruit beasts● in those very things corrupt themselves ) woe is to them from the lord , all such iudges and their iudgement , must come to iudgement , 〈…〉 . moreover , might we lawfully so argue ( but first , we need not , there being enough besides to urge in di●proof thereof ; and secondly , we do not , there being little force in such arguments ) against the sufficiency of the letter to save , as they think they may against the sufficiency of the light , need we do any more then turn the edge of their own weapon against themselves in that particular , who not only call the letter a saving light , but also argue for it as such , with a non obstante to the small number of such as are actually saved by it , even among those that both have it , and often read it , for ( say they , in way of plea for the dead letters being a saving light where ere it comes ) no matter how few come to salvation by it , because they refuse to walk by it , it s never the less saving and sufficient , though men that have it perish , because it s come to them , and is able on its own part to give life , but that on their parts it s not made use of not obeyed , &c : it s no argument its notable to save , that most men where it is are not actually saved , but rather perish : the self-same say i ep●●ehal● of the light , which they are so foolish as to argue so fillily against . a non esse●ad non prsse , non est arguendum ; there 's no arguing from its not being actually so or so , to the non-possibility of the thing to be : we cannot conclude that there 's a non-sufficiency in that to save all men , by which all men actually are not saved , for then not only the letter which only kills , yet they plead this self-same way is saving , and brings to life , but even god and christ himself , as well as their light in mens consciences , who call to all ends of the earth to look to than for salvation in it , isa. . . , ● , must ( absit blasphemia ) be judged also as insufficient to save , by whom , though supremely all are saved , that are saved at all , yet all men actually are not saved . i suppose then there were fewer that come to life by the light then do ( as there be none at all that ever came to it by the letter , even of those scripture-searching scribes that therein look for the eternal life , iohn . ) yet will is not follow , as they judge it will , that the light within all is not sufficient to lead to life ; or if it will , and these men will needs have it so , then let them take what comes along with that their own consequence to themselves , for it payes them home in another kind , whil'st 't will much rather conclude against the letters being a saving light , which against us and the truth they eagerly argue so to be , fith by their own confession , not one of many that have it come to life or salvation by it . and whereas they say , the defect and default of this is not therefore because the scripture is not a saving light , but because they walk not in it , the self-same say we of the light within , which the letter came from , in which there 's no defect , which as paul sayes of it ( for its the law of life , rom. . . . ) is weak to save , no otherwise , but because it is not answered , else life should come by it ; so that their own pen is their own pay-master still , which ever and anon pulls down at one time what it builds up at another , and contradicts , thwarts , and razes out ( as false ) in one place , the same that it writes for truth in another ; yea , en & ecce , behold the confusions of these self-confuting men , a non actu ad non potentiam , from the non-being of the effect , i.e. the life , to the non-efficaciousness of the light to lead to it such as ●earn of it , is no lawful argument ( say they ) when they plead against us the sufficiency of the letter to save , yet from all mens not being ac̄tùal'y and effectually saved by it , we may strongly conclude there is not efficacy nor sufficiency in the light within al nan to save all men in whom it is , how strictly soever they attend to it ( say they ) when we plead against the sufficiency of the light to save ; it being therefore but meet , that out of their own measure where with they mēasure to us , it should be meeted to them again . i shall conclude my answer to al these four men , and to all men else whose it is , as to this their argument , a non esse ad non posse , against the lights sufficiency , in the very words ( mutatis mutandis , interpositis interponendis , & additis addendis ) wherein themselves only speak either by way of concession against themselves of this truth we plead against them , or by way of answer to such as they suppose to use the same ( though i do not , for he is no wise man that uses it at all ) against the sufficiency of their dead letter . . those of r.b. are as follows , who in p. . of his epistle to the reader , prefixed to i. t. his book , sayes thus of the qua. do they hold that common , supernatural light , outward and inward , objective and inherent , is given to many ( at least ) of the unsanctified that live under the preaching of the gospel ? who contradicteth them in this ? answ. those who deny any , but meet natural , any supernatural , saving , or spiritual light to be given in common to all , or to any but the sanctified ones , i. e. the saints , and the elect , as yourselves do , saying ( as i. o. ) nihilnon naturale , nihil spirituale , nihil a christo mediatore , &c. lumen salutare , nulta sub consideratioue , &c. christ doth not in any wise vouchsafe supernatural , spritual , saving light to any but the elect , he is blind that once dreams the contrary , and such like , as are to be found up and down his book ; ex. . s. , : . r.b. do they hold , that as the sun is appointed in nature to be the light of every man that cometh into the world , though some parts of the earth were never illuminated by it , and blind men partake not of its light , and the night , and shutting our eyes and windows may exclude it , so christ is by office the sun in the world of grace , giving men actually all the gracious light they have , and being sufficient in himself to enlighten all , and giving them an illuminating word , which is sufficient in its own kind to do its own part , though many are blind , and many for their sin are deprived of the communication of this light ? why all this we maintain as well as they . answ. the more shame for you to stand up against that ye maintain yourselves , when the same is maintained by us , as ye do , when ye argue from some mens not seeing , because they shut their eyes , therefore they have not light by which sufficiently to see their way to life : as for your simile , from the suns not enlightning all parts of the world outwardly , from which its like ye conceive christ , the sun of righteousness , hath not inwardly enlightned all men , it is but a quibble , for as there is nothing hid from the heat thereof , nor from some participation of the natural light and heat of the sun , at least , neither by night nor day , though some times , places , and seasons are darker then some ( semblably ) no hearts from some measure of the light of christ , psal. . : : : : : : . compared with rom. . : : . ) r.b. do they say all this light ( within us and without us ) is to be hearkened to and obeyed ? why what man did they ever speak with , that is a christian , that denieth it ? answ. none but such anti-christians as yourselves , who , for all your prate here and elsewhere , saying , p. . in way of warning to men , that they act not against this light within ; that certainly it concerns every man so far to look to the light within him , that he do not , as it is said of some , iob : : rebel against the light , and p. . that no light which is truly such is to be rejected : yet elsewhere , yea in the self-same pages , how ur safe it is to obey the light within , it leading and guiding men well in somethings , in most into crooked and dangerous , unwarrantable and sinfulwayes , as some ig●is fat●us , in the beastly , blasphemous blindness of your benighted hearts , imputing mens murders , and pauls persecutions of the saints , to their following thereof , which things only arose from their following their own thoughts , and forsaking and leaving the light of god within , which lead to better , even ever to good only , and never at all into any evil ; as i. o. also after his strict challenges of obedience from every man to the light in his own conscience , as to that which infallibly speaks to him from god himself , &c. page . . of his english treatises , in his blind , hasty hatred against them , whom he mainly encounters in his latine th●ses , cryes out against this same verbum , spiritum & lumen internion , which the qua. call all men into the obedience of , in mockage , as figmentum horrendum crasse excogitatum , d●etorem infallibilem , nes●i● quid , quod lumen , quem deum , christum imaginarium , to panz nihil , rejiciendum & detessandum ; some horrible sigment of the qua. imaginary christ , infallible doetor , i know not what god , some spiritual everything , just nothing , but meer darkness it self , to be rejected and detested . and as for i. os. words concerning the sufficiency of the letter ; i shall use them in answer to himself and yourselves , as concerning the sufficiency of the light on its own part to save , though few are saved by it , only where he sets that term scripture , and word of god ( by which all along he means the outward scripture ) i shall place the term light within , by which i intend that inward word that is nigh in mens hearts , adding and interposing in a different character what clauses are not his or distinctions sake , and so carry on this my general answer , to that their foresaid general argument , to an end . no● doth it in the least impair this sufficiency of the light within to lead to life , that its a moral , and spiritual , not a natural light , because all men come not to life by it , it suffices that there is nothing wanting on its own part for the discovery and revelation of the way to life . to argue that the sun is not the sun , or the great means of communicating external light into the world , because blind men cannot see it , nor will believe so much of it as they are told , will scarce be admitted , nor doth it in the least impeach the efficacy and sufficiency of the light pleaded for , that men stupidly blind cannot comprehend it , iohn . . i do not assert that where ever the light within ( scripture , quoth i. o. ) is brought by what means soever ( whether in a ministry of it , without , calling men to turn to it , or a measure of it within , calling men to turn to god ) all to whom it s preached , and to whom it preacheth , must instantly of necessity assent unto it , and come to the saving knowledge of god by it , many men ( who are not yet stark blind ) may have so abused their eyes , that where light is brought into a dark place , they may not be able to discern it ; men may be so propossest with innumerable prejudices , principles received by strong traditions , corrupt affections , making them bate the light ( as woful experience shews that i. o. and many others do ) that they may not behold the glory of the light within ( word , quoth i. o. i.e. with him the letter , with me the light ) when it is brought unto them ( as it is nigh in the heart that they may do it ) but it s nothing to our present discou●s● , whether any man living ( in sin ) do discern this light , whilst the defect may be justly cast on their own blindness , cor. . . . . by the manifestation of the truth we commend our selves to every ones conscience in the sight of god , but if our gospel be hid , it is hid to them that are losts , in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not , lest the light of the gospel of christ , who is the image of god , should shine unto them : there is in the dispensation of the light within ( word , quoth i. o. meaning the letter ) an evidence of truth , commending itself to the consciences of men , some receive not this evidence , is it for want of light in the truth , or light itself ? no , that is a glorious light that shines ( as the bare letter doth not , for it was never there ) in the hearts of men ; is it for want of testimony to assert this light ? no , for many daily testifie it , but meerly because the god of this world hath blinded the eyes of men that they should not behold it : where ever the light within ( word , quoth i. o. meaning the letter ) comes , by what means soever , it hath in it self a sufficiency of light to evidence to all ( and will do it eventually to all that are not blinded by the god of this world ) the knowledge of god its author , and the true way of salvation , and the only reason why all are not saved , is because all do not receive its witness ; and the reason why it is not received by mary in the world to whom it is come , and in whom it is , is the advantage that satan hath to keep them in ignorance and blindness , by the lusts , corruptions , prejudices , and hardness of their own hearts ; the light within ( word , quoth i. o. meaning still the letter ) makes a sufficient proposition of itself , and is sufficient to save where ever it is , and he to whom it shall come ( as it is to all in their hearts ) who refuses it ( as darkness , errour , delusion , euthusiasone , fanaticisme , &c. ' because it is testified against ( as so and worse ) by i. o. and his followers , who calls it nihil , and in a mockage , an imagined christ , &c. whether it be i. o. himself in whom satan testifies all this against it , or any other that refuse it upon i. os. false testimony against it from satan in him ) will give an account of his atheisme and infidelity : he that hath the witness of god , which is the light within , for the letter without is but mans witness for god , as moved by his spirit to declare outwardly what he inwardly knows of him , need not stay for the witness of man , which is the letter without , which letter yet doth abundantly testifie to the light , as greater then itself : wheresoever the light within ( word , quoth i. o. meaning the letter still ) is received indeed , as it requireth itself to be received , and is really assented 〈◊〉 ●● the word of god sufficient to save , it is so received upon the evidence of that light and sufficiency , which it is found and felt by such as walkin it , to have , and hath in itself to such , manifestly declaring it self so to be : it s all one by what means , by what hand , whether of a child or babe of stammering lips , or of a church of god , for both those wayes it s witnest to without , the intimation and knowledge of the light within us , comes to us from god , and towards us , by being the word of god it hath its power of manifesting to us the way to life , and of manifesting it self so to be from its own innate light : now this light in the scripture ; i. e. which the scripture , which is not it , declares to be , in the heart for the sufficiency of which to lead to life without the scripture , as it did before that was , we contend , hath an impress far more then the letter hath of gods excellency upon it , distinguishing it by infallible tekmeria , from the product of any creature , or of the meer principles of nature , as i. o. dreams ; for though it was in men from the creation , yet it is not his natural faculty of understanding , or the mind , or the conscience , as he and his fellows foolishly fancy , ex. . s. . but some thing that is of god , and from him , which is a witness to him in the conscience , and in the mind , it is that spirit in man , and inspiration of the almighty , which giveth him understanding , iob . . that he may know him , iohn . . though all that have it do not know him by it , for from may to must there is no arguing ; by this god dives into the consciences of men , into all the secret recesses of their hearts , into a which such a gross thing as a meer outward manuscript cannot get ; guides , teaches , directs , determines , and judges in them , upon them , in the name , majesty , and authority of god , if the men who are blinded by the god of this world will yet deny this light , and not come to it , that they may be saved by it , because they perceive it not to be sufficient to save them , it shall not prejudice them , nor hinder their salvation who do : by this self-evidencing sufficiency , i say , doth the light within ( scripture , quoth i. o. ) make such a proposition of itself , as the light and power ( word , quoth i. o. meaning the letter . ) of god ; that who ever rejects it , doth it at the peril of his eternal ruine , and thereby a bottom and foundation is tendred for that faith which it requireth to repose it self upon . for the proof then of the sufficiency of the light within ( divine authority of the scripture , quoth i. o. ) to lead to life , unto him or them , who as yet on no account whatever do acknowledge it , i shall only suppose that by the providence of god , he or they be brought to the light ( book , quoth i. o. ) so as that he or they be ingaged to the consideration of it , or do attend to the leadings of it , upon a supposal hereof , i leave them and the light ( word , quoth i. o. ) together ; and if it evidence not its own sufficiency unto their consciences , it is because they are blinded by the god of this world , which will be no plea for the refusal of it at the last day ; and they who receive it not on this ground . all never receive it on any as they ought : the light within ( scripture , quoth i. o. ) is enrolled among things of that nature , as do manifest their own condition● : it is absolutely called the power of god , and that unto its proper end ; i.e. salvation , which way lyes the tendency of its efficacy in operation , rom. . . the word concerning the cross , that is , the gospel , or the light : ( for the light is the cross to the carnal mind , will and wisdome ) is the power of god , cor. . . and faith , which is built on that light , ( word , quoth i. o. ) not the letter , without other helps or advantages , is said to stand in the power of god , . cor. . . this , and not the naked letter , is the rod of his power or strength , psa. . . giving all manner of assurance and full perswasion of its own authority , efficacy , and sufficiency . by vertue of this power it hath ever brought forth fruit among such as came to it in all the world , in which it is , and into which it is come , without sword , without for the most part miracles , without humane wisdom or oratory , without any inducements or motives but what were meerly and solely taken from it self , consisting in things that ●y hath not seen , nor ear heard , nor could enter into the heart of man to conceive hath it , doth it , and will it much more now then ever , exert this its power and efficacy to the conquest of the world , causing men of all sorts , in all times and places , where its ministry comes , so to fall down before its divine authority , as immediately to renounce all that was dear to them in this world , and to undergo whatever as dreadful , terrible , and destructive to nature in all its dearest concernments ; it is now the work of many to insist on the particulars where in this power exerts it self , yea , it sel f doth more and more manifest its own sufficiency to condemn and save , so that i need not inlarge upon them , the workings thereof are spiritual , such as have their seat , dwelling , and abode in the hearts and consciences of men , whereby they are not liable to any exception , as though they were pretended ; men cannot hard in themselves in the rejection of the testimony the light gives , by sending for magicians to do the like , or by any pretence that it is a common thing that is b● fallen them on whom the light ( word , quoth i. o. meaning the scripture ) puts forth its power , as it will do when the book of conscience begins to open , the seat and residence of its effects is safe-guarded against all power and authority , but that of god ; it s diving into the hearts and consciences , and secret recesses of the minds of men , its judging and sentencing of them in themselves , its convictions , terrours , conquest , and killing of men , its converting , building up , making wise , holy , obedient , its administriag consolations in every condition , to which consolation belongs , and the like effects of its power and sufficiency are usual'y spoken of , and appropriated to the letter , by such as are ignorant of the light , who speak what they read and hear of more then feel , as death and destruction , that hear the same of that , which is hid from them , i●b . . but are effectually felt , and experimentally known by the children of the light , who love and live in it . these are the foundations of my answer to i. os. t. ds. r. bs. and i. ts. grand argument above mentioned against the sufficiency of the light to guide men into the true knowledge and life of god , drawn from the non efficiency of that its end in all men : the light , say we , the law of god which is the light in all , is not only testified to as saving by the letter , and as powerful and sufficient in all those fore named respects ; in which i. o. sayes the letter it self is , which the letter faith not of it self , for all that i. o. faith in the thirteen last sections of the fourth cha. of his first tr. in whose own words i have mostly spoken , by way of answer to himself , is most true , if applyed to the word of god indeed , which is nigh in the heart , and of the light of law of god in the conscience , but every ●ot of it false , as applyed by him to a wrong subject ( viz. ) the outward scripture , or bare letter ; and ( as the letter bears testimony to the light , so the light bears testimony enough to it self of its own sufficiency in the conscience , that testimony is the witness of god himself , which who so doth not accept and believe , he doth what in him lies to make god a lym ; to give us an infallible assurance , that in receiving this testimony , we are not imposed upon by cunningly devised fables , the light ( the scriptures ; quoth i. o. ) or law in the heart , hath that glory of light and power of god accompanying of it , as wholly distinguisheth it by infallible signs and evidences from all words and writings nor divine , conveying its truth and power into the souls and consciences of men , with such an infallible certainty , that it is believed , though men act contrary to it ; for when that within tells men what they should not do ( viz. ) not lye , steal , murder , cozen , nor do evil to others , that they would not have others do to them , though they do these evils , yet they cannot but believe through that light in them , if they had never seen the letter , that they should not do so , and that the judgements of god are due to such as do so , and when by that they are told what they are , they by it believe truly what they are , and cannot , while they behold themselves in that glass , believe themselves to be otherwise , or better then they are , no more then a mans natural face that is beheld in a true outward glass can seem to him , or be believed by him to be fairer then it is . thus having at large answered the main argument of these four men against the universality of a sufficient light in all men , to lead to life such as follow it , drawn from all mens nor actually coming to life by it , which one r. b. and i. t. aiming at number more then weight , make three of their thirty , viz. the second , tenth , and thirteenth . i shall run thorough the residue more briefly , they being not worth any long insistance on them . their third and fourth , which are but one and the same also , divided needlesly into two , they ground upon such texts as directly prove the contrary against them ; viz. iohn . . . . . eph. . . matth. . where its said , the light shines in darkness , and the darkness comprehends it not ; the true light was in the world , and the world knew him not ; he came to his own , and his own received him not ; ye were sometimes darkness , &c. to them that fate in darkness , light is sprung up : . whence they argue on this wise , many of the iews and gentiles sate in darkness , did nor reciive the light , nor comprehend it , and were darkness , when the true light came to and shined in them , therefore they had no light in them , much less every man. rep. whence i argue in proof of the very contrary thus ; the true light came to such as received at not , to such as knew it not , springs up ( as they heed it ) to such as sate in death and darkness , and shineth in the darkness , joh. . . though the darness comprehendeth it not ; but all men , as well as some , at some time or other , are found not receiving the light , not knowing it , sitting in darkness , and are darkness ●● therefore all men have in some measure the true light shining in them : besides , if this would prove that the true light is not present with all men , because most neither know , nor receive it , but abide , dwell , sit still in darkness , and remain darkness it self , then at least it will conclude against these men another way ; viz. in disproof of the outward letters being the true light ; as they contend it is , since the iews , and most christians , so call'd , both do , and ever did dwell in darkness , and continue darkness , notwithstanding the scriptures abode among them . their fifth is as a very fiddlestick as any of the former ( and all that follow it are no better ) fetch'd from luke . . in such wise as more clearly concludes that r. b. and i. t. ( as wise disputers of this world as they seem to be ( in suo genere ) in their be-nighted generation ) are yet but fools as to the true faith , and children of this world and darkness , then that all men have not some true light in them , and it runs thus : if every man had a light within him sufficient to guide him how to please god , then every man should be a child of light , but every man is not a child of light , therefore every man hath not a light , &c. to guide him to god , &c. the major of which is such a palpable inconsequence , as the least child of light , and of the day , cannot but both discern and be ashamed of ; for however in proof of it , 't is asserted by them , that to be a child of light , is all one as to be a person that hath light in him to guide him to please god , yet if they would but consult with that light of god which is yet in themselves ( if they have not by fighting against it cast themselves forth into the outer darkness ) and not meerly with their own dark animal understa●dings , they could not chuse but see that ( as i have shewed above ) the light is in them that are not in it , nor as yet believing in it , and that they ●only that believe in it are the children of it , according to what christ sayes , iohn . . . to such as had light , and yet neither walked in , nor were children of it : while ye have the light , believe in the light , that ye may be the children of light. their sixth , in proof of which is cited act. . . where paul saith , christ sent him to the gentiles to open their eyes , and to turn them from darkness to light , from the power of satan to god , is so silly , that it shews its authors and owners shrewdly to be besorted ; whence they argue ; they who are to be turned from darkness to light , had not a light within sufficient to guide them to god ; but so it is said of both jews and gentiles ; therefore sure they had not such a light within them as the qua. say is in all , if they had such a light , they should have been directed to follow it , not turned from it ; the apostles should have call'd them , as the qua. do , to follow the light in them , and not have call'd them out of darkness , nor should we do , as the apostles did , b●d men leave the darkness in them , but as the qua. do , follow the light in them . rep. flocci , nauci , nihili , pili , assis , hujus , teruncii ! did ever the like toying and trisling piece of dispotation drop from the hands of men before , as does here from the pens of these professed disputers ? where are the eyes of these men that they can't see ? or is it so , that they will not see how they turn that very text upside down , they would seem to take their tattle out of ? was it not the business of the apostles , to direct men to follow the light , when they were sent to turn men to the light ? were they that were to be turned to the light in that very call they had from the apostles to turn to it , turned from it ? do not they who call men out of the darkness which is in them , even in that very thing call them to follow the light which shines in them also , pet. . ? must not they who leave the darkness , of necessity look to the light ? can men leave the paths of uprightness , and not walk in the wayes of darkness , prov. . . or leave the wayes of darkness , and not walk in the way of the light ? is there any medium between these two ? are men to be bid to come from the power of satan unto god , and yet have they no light safe and sufficient lent them ( in case they be willing to come to him ) to lead and guide them unto god ? ye blind guides , did not paul ( as he was sent to that end as that text declares ) turn men from the darkness only ? did he not turn men to the light ? did he turn them from it ; as in that clause ( m●n should have been directed to follow the light , and not turned from it ) ye intimate he did ? and did not iohn , whose message and ministry was the self-same as peter's and paul's , and that of all holy men of god , was even from the beginning , iohn . . . . as well that of christ himself , iohn . . . declare to men , that in order to fellowship with god , is whom is no darkness at all , they should not only cease to walk in darkness , but also should walk in the light , as god is in the light ? are ye not in this , as well as in many more matters , justly given over , and left of the lord , for your enmity to his light , to babble out such gross blindness and groapable darkness , as ye here do , in saying , that if men had such light , they should have been directed to follow it , and not turned from it , according to act. . . as if paul were there said to be sent , that by his ministry men might be turned from the light , who is there expresly said to be sent to turn men to it ? for shame utter no more such wretched ignorance as this , left the shame of your nakedness appear at last to all men , as it does already to such as read your sapless sermons , and have not fold themselves to see rather with your eyes , then with their own . their seventh is on this wise wrested from rom. . . . heb. . . where it s said , without faith it is impossible to please god : and how shall they believe in him , of whom they have not heard ? how bear without a preacher ? so then faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of god ; which ( say they ) were vain speeches , if there were another ordinary way by the light within us to beget faith ; therefore the light within us is not of it self , without preaching , a safe sufficient guide in our way to god. rep. true faith is in the light of christ , and in the word of god , which is that word of faith which the apostles preached , and testified of in their words and writings , that it was nigh to men , even in their hearts , that there they might both hear and do it , rom. . . neither doth any man either hear or believe in christ to salvation , any further , then as he heeds , hears , and believes in that light and ingrafted word whereby christ counsels him in his own conscience , although he should ( as the unbelieving iews did ) hear him speaking to them with audible voice , or believe ( as all unbelieving christians do ) the whole history of him according to the flesh : so then faith unto life coming by hearing , and hearing unto life being of that light and word of god , which is nigh in the heart , which is the word of both faith and life , the apostles speeches were in vain , if there were not such a light and word within to be believed in , to the hearing and believing in which the apostles were sent to turn men , mens obeying of which word within , was the end of their using those words they spake and wrote to them in from without . moreover , we deny not preaching without by such as are sent , as paul was ( but parish-hirelings are not ) to turn men to the light within ; but the light within only , is that which guides and leads those , that are turned to it , and continue attending to it , sufficiently and safely unto god. their eighth is to this purpose ; all that have access to god , must not be conformed to this world , but be transformed , renewed , put off the old man , rom. . . eph. . . col. . . therefore they have not a light within them , as a safe sufficient guide to lead them to god antecedent to this renewing , for if they had , what need ( say they ) such transforming , renewing , non-conformity to the world , putting off the old man. rep. therefore they need such renewing , transforming , putting off the old man , non-conforming to this world , because that is the good will of god concerning them , and also millions of men , who have the light in them , that condemns and reproves them for their rebellion against it , are not conformable thereunto ; and therefore they both have and need such a light within them , antecedent to that renewing ; and need also to be called upon to turn unto it , that they may thereby see how conformable they are to this evil world , and non-conformable to that will of god , that they may thereby first know the good will of god , which is manifested in that light ; and secondly , by obeying that light , be conformed to that will , and no more unto the world , but transformed by the renewing of their minds : so that whereas they conclude all men ought to be renewed after gods image , &c. therefore all have it not ; i contrariwise conclude , all ought to be renewed according thereunto , &c. therefore all have a light sufficient to lead them , as théy follow it , into the image of god. their ninth is a sottish shameful tergiversation , a re substrats , from the question , into another matter , as clear contrary to the subject in hand , as light and darkness are to each other ; yea , instead of persevering to prosecute the proof of their proposition , concerning the non-sufficiency of the light in all men , they fall a proving the insufficiency of the darkness in all men , to be a sufficient rule to life , and safe guide of men unto god ; at the end of which they entail a most abominable lye against the quakers , saying , the qua. prescribe that unto men as their rule , which god counts their curse ; and what 's that ? scilicet , the thing that of all things the quak. of all men , who call men to gods light within , do call men out of ; viz. the counsels , imaginations , and lusts of their own hearts , which men ( say the qua. ) walking in , and b●ides the light of god , and hearkening to , and not to the voice of god ( which i. o. confesses , page . ( though in his folly he calls it natural ) to be gods light in every conscience ) come under the laws curse , and make their own misery great upon them : the a●gument is briefly thus : to leave a person to h●s own imagination , lust , to walk in his own counsel , in his own way , which is all one as to leave him to the light within him , is reckoned as the greatest curse and iudgement to a man from god , for refusing to hearken to gods voice , as the text shews , psa. . . . therefore the light within each person , is of it self no safe guide . rep. that the qua. call to the light within , and to stand in the councel of god which is the light within , which condemns all the lusts of mens hearts , and their own vain counsels and imaginations , is most true : but , if ye be not past shame , be ye ashamed and blush , both at your own blaspheming the light of god , and belying of the qua. who in your blindness ( for which wo is unto you except ye repent , isa. . ) cal good evil , and light darkness , and cannot see to put a difference between gods light , and mans lust , the councel , law , and way of god in every conscience , which leads to life , blessing , and peace , and the vain wayes and thoughts of man , and law of sin , that lusts to envy and all evil , and leads to cursing and condemnation : and secondly , cannot understand the qua any otherwise , then as calling men to their own hearts lusts , when they expresly , and in terminis , ca'l ad men to that light of god in them , which makes manifest , and condemns every ones own lust in every heart : generation of vipers , where did ye ever hear , or hear of any qua. or any one that 's owned by them in their ministry , prescribe mans own counsel , imagination , or hearts lust , to him as their rule ? do they not as iohn baptist did , bear witness to that true light which enlightaēth every man that cometh into the world ? do they not as christ did , call men to walk and believe in the light while they have it , that they may be the children of it , least utter darness come ( as 't is already on your selves , so that ye know not whether ye go ) upon them ? do they not with paul , ( whom ye wot to have received some message to turn men from it ) speak to men to turn from the darkness to the light , from the power of satan , the ruler of the darkness of this world , unto god ? do they not tell men with peter , that there 's a sure word of prophesie for them , to which they do well to take heed , as to a light that shines in the dark place of their hearts , till the day dawn , and the day-star arise there ? do they not with iohn tell men , that god is light , and in the light , and that in him is no darkness at all ; and that if men ( be their form never so fair ) say they have fellowship with god , and walk in darkness , and the lusts of the flesh ( as papists , pralaticks , presbyterians , independents , and other our-side professors do ) they do but lye , and do not the truth ; but if they walk in the light , as god is in it , then god and they have fellowship together , and there the blood of his son is felt clearsing from all sin ? which ye say men cannot be thoroughly cleansed from , while they live here , and so harden men in their own hearts lusts ; and is all this of the qua. a prescribing to men their hearts lusts , as their rule ? do you understand christ , paul , peter , iohn , and all the prophets calling to the light , isa. . as isaiah , come ye , let us walk in the light of the lord , he will teach u : of his wayes , we will walk in his paths , so as ye do us , when we restifie the same truth often in their own words , as calling men to follow their own wayes , thoughts , counsels , imaginations , hearts lusts ? if ye take us as intending so , when we call to the light , why not them ? if not them , why us , who say the same ? is the word light more offensive , more unsavoury , more difficult to be understood , more savouring of lust , more sounding like lust out of our mouths , whom ye superlatively abhor , then out of theirs , whom ye now superstitiously adore ? but so it alwayes fell out , as i.o. truly sayes , page . , . that scarce any prophet that spake in the name of god , had any approbation from the church , in whose dayes he spake , people being so eminently perplexed with false prophets ( in the latter dayes , of the iewish church especially ) both as to their number and subtilty , speaking lyes against the truth ; therefore no marvel it is so now in these last dayes of the church of the outside christians ; and as the next age to that which flew them , began still to build sepulchres in remembrance of them , so the time is neer to come , wherein ye , or your successors , who cast out the name of gods people called qua. as evil now , shall ( what ere ye dream ) be forced to say there 's a seed among them which sincerely serves the lord , which shall be counted to him for a generation , and to confess ( as much as they are now a curse among men ) that they are the seed whom god hath blessed . virtutem incolumem odimus sublatam ex oculis quaerimus invidi . their eleventh argument from jude . having not the spirit , john . . the spirit of truth , whom the world cannot receive , is this , every man hath not the spirit of god ; therefore every man hath not a light within sufficient to guide him to god. rep. every man that hath not so long resisted , grieved , quenched the motions of the spirit of god striving in him , that it thereupon is taken from him , as it was from those sensual ones iude speaks of , whom god had given over to their lusts , hath the spirit striving within him , and that 's enough to our purpose , who own such a state , that some may be given over to , for not using what they had , while they had it , as wherein to have wisdome ( at whose reproof they would not turn ) withdraw and leave them to the way of folly , and the good spirit depart from them ( as he did from saul , iudas , the iews , and others ) and leave the house , even their hearts wholly desolate and destitute of his presence , for the evil spirit , that lusteth in men to envy , to enter and totally to possess them , and the talent , or measure of gods light within ( sith they would not trade with it ) taken away from them , that the outwa●d darkness might come upon them , and the grace of god that brought salvation to them ( which at some time or other appears to all men , tit. . . . ) sith they would not learn of it to to deny ungodliness , but turned it into wantonness , and received it in vain , despising the riches of it when it would have led them to repentance , leave them to the impenitency and hardness of their hearts , that they might fill up their measure of sin , and so wrath come upon them to the utmost ; but all this proves not , but that once they had it , or else christ would not have said to such as yet walk't not in it , walk in the light while ye have it , least darkness come upon you , and ye know not whither ye go ; nor could your selves say rationally ( as ye do to wicked men often ) o people ! now while his good spirit moves in your spirits , resist not , quench not his motions , left ( like them that lay at the pool of bethesda , not stepping in while the angel moved on the waters ) you be left unhealed forever : work whilst its day , left the night come on you , wherein none can work , his spirit will not strive alwayes , &c. as for the worlds not receiving the spirit , so as to walk in it , it proves not that god gives it not any more , then that they have no grace given them of god , because they receive it in vain ; and ye may as well say unreasonable men have no principle of reason left in them , because they live not by it , as that they have not a sufficient light in them to lead them , because they do not walk in it : besides , it is expressly said of christ , that by the same spirit by which himself was quickned , he went and preached to the spirits in prison , i. e. to their own lusts , which were disobedient in the old world , in the dayes of noah , which was not by his ministry without only , as the dream , but within also in their own hearts . their twelfth runs thus ; the son did not reveal the father to every man , nor did every man come to christ ; therefore every man had not a light within him sufficient to guide him to god. rep. the consequence of this is utterly false , for though the world hates christ the light , and comes not to him , yet he is come a light into the world ; this he , that 's not willingly ignorant of it , can scarcely chuse but see , if he read iohn . . . . . . . it follows not because men come not into christs light , that therefore it is not come into them , it being ( as is shewed above ) one thing for the light to be in men , another for them to be in it . i am come that they might have life ( faith christ of the jews ) john . yet ye search the scriptures , and therein look for eternal life , but will not come to me that ye may have life ( faith he to the scribes , iohn . ) both these comings of each to other are necessary to the life , else though the light that is able to lead to it be in men , they , not being led by it , cannot have it . moreover , christ does by his light reveal the father to such as hate both him and his father , though they like not to know him thereby , else he could not say truly ( as he does ) to such , iob. . . . if i had not come and spoken to them , they had not had sin , but now they have no cloak for their sin ; if i had not done in them the works which none other doth , they had not had sin , but now they have both seen and hated , both me and my father : in what measure men see the mind and will of christ and his father manifested in them by the light within , rom. . . and hate that , they see and hate both christ and his father , whose light , and mind , and will that is which appears to them . their fourteenth is urged by them from texts of scripture , every of which most clearly prove , or rather positively asserts the very thing they contend against ; viz. that christ is come a light to them that sit in darkness , and so all men do , a light to the nations , a light into the world , that whosoever ( that is in the world he is come into ) believeth in him , should not perish , nor walk , nor abide in darkness , but have the light of life , iohn . . . . . . . . for not coming to which , nor believing in which , not loving but hating of which , not living by which only , the world comes to be condemned : were ever men so blinded ? but ( say they ) christs coming a light into the world would be needless , if every man had a light in him before christs coming into the world , sufficient to guide him in the way to god : therefore the quakers opinion about the light in each person is a manifest errour . rep. your apprehension of the qua. opinion , is either a manifest errour , or a wilful piece of ignorance , or a miserable mistake , or something , for they hold no such thing as a light in each man sufficient to guide him without , or besides that of christ , or before christs coming into the world , but that the whole world lying in wickedness , and sitting in darkness , christ is sent a light to enlighten them , who without him are lost , and that he who is that true light doth more or less , by his coming into the world , enlighten every man that comes into it . the fifteenth concludes a lye against the qua. as denying the use of , and dehorting from searching the scriptures , which while christ , iohn . . bids search ; and paul , tim. . . . . sayes are useful and profitable ; the qua. say no ( say they ) but look to the light within you . rep. i say , though the qua. say , look to the light within ( as christ and paul did ) yet they no more deny the usefulness of the scripture , then either of those scriptures ye quote proves that absolute necessity of the scripture as to salvation , which ye seem to plead , though christ and paul never did so ; nor do we any more dehort from searching the scripture , then christ , iohn . . exhorteth to search them , which is not at all in that text ; for howbeit ereunate , search , may be rendred either indicatively , or imperatively , as to its own signification ( as i elsewhere shew ) its most evident that he speaks there by way of complaint of the scribes , for looking for life in the scriptures , without coming to him who is the light , ver . . and not by way of command to search them , ye search , not search ye . their sixteenth is from isa. . . psa. . . to the law , and to the testimony ; if they speak not according to this word , there is no light in them : thy word is a light to my feet , a lamp to my path ; whence they sillily argue , or rather blindly assert the qua. opinion and speech concerning a sufficient light in all men , to be contrary to the law , and testimony , and gods word , ordinances , ministry , and many other things ; and therefore erroneous , and without light in it . rep. the antecedent here is most false ; for the law , testimony , and word there spoken of , which is a lamp and light to the feet and path , and according which who speaks not , it is because the morning is not yet to him ( for the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , through the mistranslation of which phrase thus , there 's no light in him , many ( not knowing the hebrew ) and many that know it ( not heeding it ) make no small ado against the lights being in all men ( as vavasor powell did once at eltham ) is no other then that light within , even that word which david had , and hid within him , that he might not sin against god , by which young men taking heed thereunto , may come to cleanse their way , psa. . . that word of faith that is nigh in the heart , which the apostles preached or witnessed to , rom. . that law and commandment , which is said to be a lamp and light , prov. . that inward testimony of iesus , or spirit of prophesie , which we , with all the prophees of old , by words and scriptures , bear our outward testimony unto , call'd by peter , pet. . . the more sure word of prophesie , to which men do well to give heed , as unto a light shining in the dark place of their heart , till the day dawn , and the day star arise therein . this i say , and not the external text ( as ye all triflingly talk ) is that law , and testimony , and word , there spoken of , even the law and testimony that comes , and is written , and is given and received immediately from and out of god and christ's own light , voice , and mouth , in the hearts , minds , and consciences of all people , which his own people only give ear and hearken to , even the rod , the spirit , the word and sword of his mouth , which priests and all people are summoned to seek to , to stand in as gods own counsel , and to take counsel at , and be cover'd with , and take heed to their way by , that they may not sin against the lord , and which all the wicked that sin against , must once be slain by ( psa. . . isa. . . . . ier. . . . . ezek. . . . . zach. . . . . . ier. . . . . . . . . &c. ) hos. . . . thes. . . . rev. . ) which the priests above all others usually depart from , and forget , and are partial in , and cause people in stumble at , and forget , who therefore neither profit people , nor thrive in any thing but ignorance and deceit themselves , because they stand not in it , from whom , though their schools are call'd nurseries of learning , well-heads of true religion and divinity , there goes forth no true divination , but sottishness and profaneness into all lands . this is that law and living word , and true testimony , even the light and word of god in the heart , a testimony that 's said to be bound up from the outward israel , which may have the outward bible bound among them ; a law that 's said to be sealed up among christs disciples from the sight of the be-nighted seers , which such as seek to , seek to the lord himself ; and such as forsake , go from the fountain of the living water , to broken cisteers ; and such as leave for an outward letter , leave the living for the dead , and seek for the living lord among the dead : these are the wells of salvation , out of which souls should draw the living water , which the philistines in envy to the seed of abraham , will strive alway to slop , till the lord make room for them to flow out to the full . these are that word , law , and testimony , and not the most original copies of the letter , as i.o. and ye all with him do emptily imagine , page . which who so deprives of the hebrew punctation , by proving the novelty thereof , do with abimelechs servants , no less then utterly stop the wells or fountains from whence ye should draw all your souls refreshment . these ( as i have shewed so abundantly above , at the end of my third exercitation , in answer to i.o. that i shall need say no more here in proof thereof ) are the matters meant by the said law and testimony , isa. . . which are not contrary to the writing without neither , and the true outward ministry and ordinances , but consonant thereunto , which inward law , word , and testimony your selves being contrary to , and opposing , are therein contrary to gods word , and the outward scripture of it also ; therefore not the qua. who own all these , but your own opinion is erroneous , and your speech is without light . the seventeenth from eph. . . runs thus : the opinion and practise of the qua. makes every man a teacher , and teachers set by god for the work of the ministry needless , as if th●y were no gift , but a burden to the church , cryes them down ; therefore it s contrary to gods and christs way , and so antichristian . rep. the antecedent here is a false tale , and a meer slander of the qua. for neither do they so much as doctrinally make every man , a teacher , for they deny both your selves , and all that side with you , to be men fit to be teachers of others , unless ye were better taught your selves , or had learn't the truth of god much better then as yet ye have done ; and howbeit they know your ministry , who are set by men to minister for money , to be not only needless , but also useless , fruitless , unprofitable , burdensome , chargeable , and more destructive , then saving both to peoples souls , and to the nations ; yet we own all teachers set by god for the work of the ministry ( which are such only as are made ministers by gifts of god from above , and not such as buy their gifts at university , that they may fell them again ) to be both needful , useful , and profitable , both to the turning people of the world to the light & word within , that thereby they may be begotten into christs nature , and also to the edifying of the saints in their faith in that light , till they come up into the measure of the fulness of christs stature ( a state which ye deny to be so much as attainable in this life , so far are ye from building any up into it ) neither ( as much as we are call'd to cry out against you , as all the true prophets ever did against the hireling priests ) do we at all cry down such gifts , or gifted men , as god gives to his church ; but wot you well , that your selves are the men who are found fighters against such , who making the gospel a meer trade to live on , ingross that trade wholly to your selves , and make every man a teacher that has been train'd up at university , and can handle his tongue well to talk for the priests and tythes , though never fitted for that holy calling by the gift of gods grace , or good life ( witness the general blindness and bruitishn●ss of the brittish priesthood ) but own no men as true teachers , but deluders and fanatick , that in their ministry do but pretend to be immediately gifted and guided by gods infallible spirit : and whereas we say , that christ iesus receives gifts for all men , even for the rebellious also , and that no less then this gift , that the lord god may dwell in them , if they look to him in his light , in which he draws nigh unto every man , yet contrary both to us and that text , out of which you talk , which , compar'd with that paul alludes to , ps : . betokens such gifts for the rebellious , do you deny all men to have so much as the least measure of such light , as however attended to , can lead to god , oe to witness gods dwelling in them . the eighteenth is from eph. . . where paul prayes , that god would give them the spirit of wisdome , and revelation of the knowledge of him , that the ●yes of their understandings might be enlightned : the opinion of the qua. ( say they ) of each mans light in him a sufficient safe rule and guide in his way to god , makes it unnecessary to pray for the spirit to enlighten mens eyes in the knowledge of god ; therefore indeed it is impious . rep. who would think men should be so blind , unless they wilfully shut their own eyes ? having some grace , some measure of light , renders it needless , it seems , by these seers , to pray for more , and praying for more and more of gods spirit , light , and grace , supposes ( it seems ) that there 's yet none at all ; and so upon this account , the church of the ephesians as yet had no illumination by the spirit , any more then the rest of men , because there was prayer made , that they might be enlightned ; and david had none of gods spirit , because he prayes to be established more and more by it , and the humble have none of that grace of god at all which is sufficient , because they may have , and god promiseth to give them more : what f●ivilosity is this for divines to be found in ? the nineteenth is urged from psa. . . who can understand his errors ? in brief to this effect , no men understand their errors ; therefore each mans light in him is not a sufficient and safe rule , and guide to him , in his way to god. rep. if the falmists interrogation affirmative concludes negatively , and exclusively of any mens having any sufficient light , then it concludes universally also against all mens having any such light , and so upon this account the saints themselves are excluded , as having no such light , as well as other men , sith ( according to r. b. and i. ts. sense on that place ) they understand not all the errours of their lives ; but r. b. and i. t. will not deny but the saints have some measure of such light ; and therefore why others have not ( though they use it not , that ignorance of all their errors notwithstanding ) is more then these two men can give any good reason for . the twentieth from act. . . runs thus , god commands all men every where to repent of their ignorant worship of him ; therefore each mans sight in him is not a sufficient guide for him to go by in gods worship . rep. from which premises i contrariwise conclude thus ; viz. therefore all and each man every where ( though few heed it ) hath a sufficient light in him from god ( as the heathen had , though they glorified and worshipped him not according to that light and knowledge of him they had , rom. . . &c. ) to guide him aright in gods worship , who commands no impossibilities , nor injoyns any man to worship him , otherwise then answerably to what of himself and of his will , is by his own light made manifest in him . the . is from prov. . . . . rom. . . on this wise ; the quakers opinion concerning each mans own light in him , makes men proud , and lifted up , and prudent in their own sight , to which wo is , isa. . . and to lean to their own understanding ; and not to depend on god for teaching them in his wayes ; therefore , &c. rep. cuius contrarium verum est ; if by own light , these men straggle so far from the question in hand , as to intend , as they seem to do , mans own wisdome , churs●l , thoughts , conceits , imaginations , &c. no men in the world call men more out of these things so plainly , so earnestly , so constantly , as the quakers do ; but if they be steady in their dispute ( as good disputants ought to be ) ad rem substratam , to the matter debated , which is some measure of the true light of god and christ●s the calling to this is so far from making men lean to their own understanding , and independent , on gods teachings ; that there 's no man in the world can be said truly to be low , emptied of self , mean in his own eyes , to trust in the lord with all his heart , and in all his wayes , to acknowledge him , to leave leaning to his own understanding , to stand in gods counsel ( which woe to him who does not , isa. . . ) to learn of god , and depend on him alone for teaching , to hear his voice , &c. ( though he scrape with the scribes daily in the scriptures themselves , iob. . , . till he betake himself to attendance to that , which god sayes and shews in him by the measure of that light wherewith god shines into his conscience : wo therefore unto these men that call gods counsel mans conceit , they are wise in their own eyes , and prudent in their own sight , though , in the sight of god and his saints , not yet weaned from their foolishness , as they are also of that generation that are pure in their own eyes , though not yet washed , nor believing that while they live here , they can perfectly be washed from their filthiness . the . is no other then the same with the . though alluding to two other texts from which they fetch them ; viz. iudg. . . psal. . . in those dayes there was no king in israel , but every man did that which was right in his own eyes , and they went a whoring with their own inventions , where they make doing after mens own thoughts , conceits , inventions , and looking to , or following the light within us synonimous , and this last a sign of wicked men , and going a whoring from god , and departing from god , unsafe , and such like ; concluding thus , viz. the truth is , god forbid ; the following of our own supposed light , as the greatest impiety , which the quakers place all their godliness in . rep. this is nought but another impudent lye against the quakers , as well as a most evidently foolish extravagancy from the question , which is not about our own supposed light , but some measure of that undoubted light of god , ( which ( though ignorantly by you stiled natural ) yet is not denied to be true light , and that from god , and not our own , supposed only so to be . the quak. place none of their godliness in such meer supposed light , as ye do , who suppose the ignis fatius of your dark and silly s●nses and suppositions on the letter , as sufficient light for all people to live by , their faith stands not in mans wisdome , nor in that science of you opposite schoolmen , which is falsly so called and supposed , but in that real infallible light within , which is the w●sdome and power of god ; and as for al departure , and going a whoring from god , and his light within , after mans own inventions and thoughts in things of god , which is that impiety of the priests , that god forbids and abominates , we deny and abhor it also . the . which is from the first of the two last texts , and the th , which is from pro. . . are both also besides the business , and urg'd in disproof of that sufficiency of supposed light , and the way that seems right only in mans eyes , and is not so ; this we have nothing to do with , but deny it against the priests , who unawares to themselves , are walking therein , as the way to death ; but that we plead for is the true light , iohn . . which lightens every man , and is the only true way that leads to life . and whereas the consequence of their . seems to be to this effect ; if every man had a light in him sufficient to guide him in right and good wayes , then kings and rulers should not punish men for walking in the wrong and evil wayes that seem good and right in their own eyes . rep. i contrariwise conclude , that if men had not such a light in them , as is sufficient to guide them in good wayes , then kings and rulers should not punish them for going into evil wayes ; for as 't were an unjust thing to require ( not of him , that seeing will not see , as those , math. . ) of such a blind man as never could see , to see the right way which was never shewed him , and to punish him for not walking therein ; so were it in rulers to punish men for following filthy wayes , and evil things , if they did not ( videre meliora ) i. e. see and know how to do better , for to him who knows good , and does it not , evil and declines it not , both which are known by the light that is in the world , i. e. in men ( though some for want of heed , say the light in the conscience shews the evil , but not the good ) to him only it is sin to condemnation . the . from prov. . . . concludes , that if each man have some such true light in him , then there 's no need of training up children , in whose hearts foolishness is bound up , in the way they should go , by the rod and teaching ; for what need of the rod ( say they ) then to drive fully out . rep. i reply ; to drive it out , and bring them into the way of wisdom , which is in them , and seen by them ( but not much heeded till they smart far it ) as well as the way of folly : this argument holds as much against gods correcting such whom ye confess to know his will , and do it not , as against our correcting children , whom we correct for not doing what we know they know they shold do ; for no father but he that 's foolish will whip his child for any thing as a fault , but that which his child knew to be so : so fools come to be plagued , sayes the spirit , because of offences they fly out into , that ( if they be not incorrigible ) they with the wife may look well to , and ponder their goings . our doctrine concerning all mens knowing in some measure , by his light within themselves , the good will of god , destroyes not , but establishes the whip for the horse , the bridle for the afs , and the rod for the back of such fools , as turn aside from the truth that 's told them into folly ; nor does this any more conclude against teaching children then m●t , with both which it is consistent , for the end of our teachings of both , are to turn them to attend to the light and truth it self within them , that doth teach them ; yea , even children , as they come to a few years of discretion : i remember well that before i could read the scripture ( which i could read when very young ) i knew by that of god in me , and not from my parents only , whose witness without could not have been credited therein by me , had not the witness of god , which is the greater , testified the same within my self , that i should not lye , and was judged with fears of wrath , if ever i made a lye , as children are apt to do , to escape a whipping for a lesser fault . if then it be ask't why we teach men and children : i answer , to bring and turn them ( as paul was sent to do ) from the darkness , in which they walk beside it , into the light , which whether they walk in it or no , is yet in them ; and because they are not come to it ( as all true men do ) but hate and decline it with the evil ones , whose condemnation it therefore is , because though they come not into it , it is already come into them , iohn . . . . and with this short self-same answer , now it s brought into my spirit , i shall here wipe out of the way a whole parcel of pedling queries of r. baxter , about the the light , as they lie together in his epistle to the reader , before i. ts. book , into the pit of darkness , from whence they were exerted . r. b. q. i. i would fain ( quoth he ) be resolved in these few questions : how comes it to pass that all nations that never beard the gospel , are utterly void of faith in christ , when the nations that have the gospel do generally know him more or less ? aus . to say nothing , how little true knowledge of god is in these nations , that he grants have the gospel , meaning in an outward ministry , for else i know no nation that hath not some of that light which is gods gospel in them , any more then paul did , who said , the gospel is preached in every creature under heaven , col. . and rom. . have they not all heard ? ( i. e. the gospel ) yes verily , &c. the reason why all the nations have so little as they all have , is , because they come not to the light which is come into them . r. b. q. . why did not the world believe in christ even generally before his coming , if reason was then a sufficient light ? ans. how far forth right reason taken ( not for the bare natural faculty which a fool may have ) but for that supernatural gift of god whereby to guide men out of all bruitish wayes , and his light we restiffe to , which is not against , but according to right reason , are synonimous , it matters not to be medled with in this place ; but to the query i reply the same still , viz. b●cause men came not to that light of god which was in them . r. b. q. . why did christ preach himself while he was on earth , if the people had sufficient light before ? ans. christ speaking then audibly to the outward ear , through that voice he then used , preach't himself indeed , that he was the light of the world , the wo●d ●f god , and the life and light of men from the beginning , and not from that time only of that his outward appearance unto a few , iohn . . . and to this end did he preach himself as a light in men ( for the word was made flesh , and dwelt in us , sayes iohn , ioh. . . ) bidding them believe in the light , i.e. his light in them , and so in himself who is the light , that they might be the children of it , and walk in the light while they had it , and come to the light , and such like ; because the men to whom he preach't thus , were not come to that light of his , which was come into them . r. b. q . why did he send his apostles to preach through the world , if the p●ople had sufficient light before ? ans. to the same end for which he sent iohn , ep. . . . . . that they might walk with god in the light , and not in the darkness , as they did , though the light was in them ; and fo● which he sent paul to the na●ions , act. . to turn them from the darkne●s to the light , from the power of satan unto god ; and because men wanted to be instructed which way to look for the life of god which they had lost ; and because they yee not yet come into that light of god that only leads to it , which was come into them . r. b. q. . why did he set pastors and teachers in his church , if all have a sufficient light within them ? ans. that his church , which is in god , being turned from the world , and the darkness of it to the light , might by their memorandums of the things they knew , pet. . be kept stedfast in their watch to the light , unmoveable and abundant , alwayes in that work of the lord , believing in the light ( which work the world are not yet come to ) and to abide in christ the light ( as branches in the vine ) and in the teachings of the annointing , which is the truth , and no lye , that it might teach them by degrees all things , and lead them into all truth , as it had into some already , that the saints might as branches grow up in all things into him , even the express image and likeness of him , who is the one head over all to the body , and the express image of the fathers being , in whom is no guile , for the perfecting of the saints ( a thing ye seeming saints deny to be attainable in ●he body ) for the work of the ministry , for the edifying of the body , till all that are begotten into the nature , may come into the unity of the faith , and knowledge of gods son , even unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of christ , eph. . joh. . joh. . finally , because men come to the light ( if not exhorted to continue in their faith in it ) may again go out from that light of god , which ( unless it take occasion by their wilful departings from it , to depart at last from them ) is come unto them , and continually in them . r. b. q. . why do the quakers go up and down teaching men their own doctrines , if all men have sufficient light already ? ans. not their own doctrines , but the doctrines of christ , and to call men into it , and to counsel such as are come into it , as ioh. ep. . to abide in christs own doctrine or teaching , that they ( as who doth not so hath neither ) may have both son and the father ; and because m●n generally are not come into that light of god , which is already come into them . r. b. q. . why do they cry out against us , as being in darkness , when all men have sufficient light in them ? ans. were there no other thing but this one vain thought of yours , that there 's no difference between mens being in the light , and the light 's being in them , it s enough of it self , without any more ado , to proclaim you to be in darkness , for if ye were in the light of common reason that is in you , 't would tell you , as well as the scripture , that the light shines in the darkness , though it comprehends not the light , that it shews the way to them that walk beside it , though they walk not in it , because they hate it , but in the darkness which they love more then it , being fallen in love with its evil deeds , ioh. . ioh. . and so to the query , we say ye are in darkness , because ye among other men are not yet come into that sufficient light , which if ye would once but singly look to , ye should feel is already come into you . r. b. q. . will they pray for more light and grace , or not , if not , they are impiously proud ; if yea then it seems they have not yet light and grace sufficient ? ans. we do pray for more light and grace , and god gives more and more to the bumble , as i have shewed above ; but if ye were not with all the climbers up another way , iob. . . either too proud to stoop to come into the knowledge of the truth by the door , the light , or so blind as to groap f●r the wall , like them that have no eyes , ye could not but see that their praying for more , and gods giving more grace unto the humble , is so far from evincing that they have none , as that it evidently evinces they have some already ; for if men had no grace , and should pray for it , they might be said to pray for some ; but no man can be properly said to pray for more light and grace , but such as ( at least ) have some already . r. b. q. . whereas they say the light within is sufficient , if obeyed , our question is , whether it be sufficient to make men obey it ? &c. that 's the grace we are speaking of , that causeth men to hearken , believe , and obey , for faith is not of your selves , but it is the gift of god , and mens hearts must be opened as lydia's was , act. . to hear abd receive the truth revealed . now to say that the light or grace which is given to cause us to believe and obey , is sufficient if we will believe and obey , is ridiculous ; as if christ should have said to lazarus , i will raise thee , if thou will raise thyself . ans. here r. b. sits besides the cushion , as much as he that queries beside the question , for that 's not the grace we are speaking of , that is sufficient to cause men to obey , but that which is sufficient if obeyed , that 's the testimony the qua. bear to the light of god , it is saving to such as walk in it ; and if it be not sufficient grace from god to r. baxter , that he hath given him a light that will lead him to life , if he will follow it , but he lacks more , even to be caused to walk in that light , or else he quarrels with it as not enough , and with that grace of gods as no grace , because he is not compelled by force to accept of it , he may fret himself till he fry in the fire of his own peevish spirit , before he shall find such a grace from god to his salvation , while himself lives in the neglect of that he has , like the unprofitable servant , that charges god foolishly as a hard master , though he hath given him a talent to trade with , unless ( while he sits still ) god force him to trade with it whether he will or no. as for us called quakers , we judge god hath done well for us , in working in us to will and to do , i.e. the power , and hath ( though not in r.bs. , compulsive way caused us ) put us into a capacity to work it out , and left us ( as he looks all men should do when he has done the other , phil. . . . ) to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling , and that he doth by a ministry without , and a measure of his spirit within counselling us , open our hearts , as he did lydia's , to attend to what himself and his servants say , and if ever we believe in his light to our life , that faith is his gift , though our act , as 't is his gift that we may , or have power either to sit or stan● , and , of his grace , our act , when we chu●e either to stand or sit ; nor we count it ridiculous ( as r. b. does ) to say , that gods light and grace is sufficient to bring us to life , if we attend it , though god leave us to chuse , when he hath given it us , whether we will improve it , or turn f●om it ; nor was it ridiculous in christ to say to lazarus , i will raise thee , if thou will raise by self ; for christ having done in his part in quickning , left lazarus to his part in rising , and in effect said the same , which r. b. counts ridiculous , viz. lazarus , come forth , which if lazarus had not done , he might have perisht in that sepulchre , for all christ had quickned him so as to gi●e him the power to come forth , for christ would not have pull●d him out by force , if he had refu●ed to come forth when he called him , nor any more then 't was in god to say , hear ye deaf , and look ye blind , that ye may see . but as for this man r. b. and his fellows , 't is not grace enough , nor cou●t sie s●fficient ( it seems ) if a man invite poor folks to dinner , and prepares meat enough for all comers , and bids his guests welcome when they are come , and compels them by all earnest perswasion to sit down , and bids them , as god does , eat , o friends , drink , yea , drink abudantly , o beloved , when they are ●ate , unless , when they refuse , he open their mouths in some forcible manner , and cause them to eat all that is set before them , such troublesome guests as these , of which sort are r. b. and the rest that look for such a compulsive causing , when the grace of a sufficient feast is vouch fast unto them , are not fit to sit at great mens tables , much le●s at gods , and by my consent he that ( unless he be forcibly fed ) refuses to feed when the meats before him ( whether it be at a feast of sat things of mans making , or of gods ) shall ( while others hearken , and let their souls delight themselves in fatness ) have his choice to sit still , and ( as the proverb is ) may fast and welcome . i conclude then as to query , that god puts men into capacity to come to the light , if they will not chuse darkness before it , that light is sufficient to save , if obeyed , yet all men , who all have s●me of it , are not saved by it , and the reason is , because they will not come to that light of g●d , which in gods good will towards them , in come into them . r. b. q. . but how can light be sufficient ( were a man never so obedient ) to reveal that which was never manifested by it , or by any rev●lation that doth accompany it ? no light among the heathens in america doth tell them , that christ was incarnate , died , rose , ascended , or intercedeth for us , or is the king , priest , or teacher of his church , or will raise the dead , and judge the world ; how then can this light be sufficient to bring them to the belief of this ? ans. is the light in america then any more insufficient to lead its followers to god , then the light in europe , asia , africa , the other three parts of the world ? i have ever lookt upon the light in all men ( since i began to look to it in my self ) as one and the self-same light in all where it is , in sort and kind , though different in degree and measure , which varies not the nature of any thing , and that ( according to the measure of it , and in ●uch wi●e as it s attended to withall ) it shews the same things in all men , as to the myst●●y , substance , and spirituali●y of them , though the outward history of this in an outward letter , some may be better skill'd the ein then some . i wot how cornelius came to be accepted in his prayers and almes , as a man truly fearing god , before by an outward ministry he ever heard of christ inca●nate dying , rising , ascending , interceding , &c. ( after all the●e things were outwardly and actually transfacted also ) since all you agree , and we with you , that out of the knowledge of christ , the light , there 's no acceptance at all with god , nor in any other name , either iustification or salvatio● : was it not in his obedience to the light he had , which came from ch●ist , the light , though as yet he knew him not after the fl●sh ? and by what light did they who wrote of christs incarnation , death , resurrection , ascensi●n , &c. see them , before they wrote , as some did , viz. ab●aham , who saw his day , before any history , or letter of your scripture at all was w●itt●n ? was it not by that ( as they walk on with god in it , from abel , enoch , noah , and downward ) some measure of which ( but that they minded it not , as some few did , but were ever alienated from it , walking in their own wayes ) was in all nations as well as some , and not more ( save only in measure ) in the prophets , then in other men ? and did not this light without and b●fore the letter help some ( even such still as walk't after it ) to the belief of this , and that god would raise the dead , and judge the world , which they wrote in the light and spirit in which they saw it , and in that wisdome which in all ages , wisd. . entering into holy souls that heed it , makes them friends of god and prophets ? were these things then , as r. b. thinks in his query , never manifested by the light without the letter , nor by any revelation that doth accompany the light , were men never so obedient to it ? what darkness is this of r. b. in his ten queries , who yet to pin the basket at the end of this tenth query , to add weight to the lightness , and light to the darkness of it , adds one more of his own thoughts and odd conceits , in these words : r. r. i think its past controversie , that no man hath sufficient gr●ce to his salvation , till his last breath : for if god add not more for his preservation , all will be lost . ans. by which hasty speech the man proclaims his being in the darkness , and besides the light that is in him , so loud , and exalts its f●lly , and sets it so on high , that all may see it , save such as are with him in the dark where he is ; for besides the absurdity ( above spoken to ) of his arguing from gods adding more , and mens not having so much yet as they may have , that therefore they have none at all of that grace which is sufficient ; he turns from the true terms of his question , taking the word suffien● here in quite another sense then it hath been taken in along , viz. for the highest d●g●●● only of that grace of god , when as the question is about the sufficiency of it to save from that sin it shews , such as keep to it , in the very least degree ; and lastly , expresly contradicts the scripture which speaks of the suffi●●ency of god grace to keep men that keep to it , in such degrees of it as are attainable in this life , witness that of god to paul , full fourteen years behind the time wherein he spake it , and many more before the time of his last breath , cor. . my grace is sufficient f●r thee . i conclude then ( all r. bs. queries notwithstanding ) that though all are not saved by it , yet all have some of that light and grace which is ●aving , and that all are not saved , as some are , it is becaus● they come not into that light and grace ●f god which is come int● , and unto them . and now i return to r.b. and i.ts. arguments against this , whose th f●om iohn . . . . is thus , there 's need of a further drawing , or gift of the fa●her , that a man may come to christ , as there would not b● if his own light , without other help , would make known christ to him ; therefore each mans own light is not sufficient , &c. rep. here r. b. layes on hard again upon the anvil , beside the iron , in di●proving the sufficiency of mans own light , by which he means mans thoughts , wisd●m● , &c. ( which we count da●kness and foolishness much more then himself does ) when the question is about the light of g●d in the heart , of which we say , that , though none can come to christ without g●d draw him , yet by that g●d d●aws all me● , though a●l m●n c●me not after hi● : and so the rea●on why they perish still , is not because god does not d●aw th●m to life by a light sufficient to lead to it , but because they resist , hang back , and will nto follow it ; therefore sayes god , i drew them with the co●ds of my love , with the bands of a man , yet shall they go into captivity , because they refused to return . the . from iohn . . thes. . . mat. . . believe not every spirit , but try the spirits , &c. prove all things take heed what ye hear , is thus ; if each persons light within him were a safe guide of it self to god , then no men need to try other mens spirits , nor to prove all things , left he be deceived , sith if he follow his own light he is fallible , &c. but these things are absurd , and contra●y to the warinest christ prescribes ; therefore the light within each person is not a sufficient guide to god. i shall ( instead of ( his own light ) placing ( the light of god ) about which only the dispute is ) syllogize these mens silly syll●gisme back upon them thus : if the light of god within each person were not a sufficient and safe guid● to lead him to god , then no man need ( to trouble hims●lf s● much as ) to try other mens spirits , or prove all things , left he be deceived , for that is but labour in vain , sith if he have not a measure of gods infallible light and spirit in ●im whereby to judge of things , even of that light of which the letter sayes , that all thing● that are to be reproved , eph. . are manif●st●d by it , and no truth is infa●liby manifested but by it , which only leads into all truth ; he is not infallib●y guided , nor undoubtedly sure of his hand , let him look , search , prove , and try as much as he will , any more then a man can infallibly di●cern , and distinguish of colours in a dismal dark night , or dark place , where not one beam of the sun shines so as to discover them : but these things are absurd and contrary to the wariness that christ prescribeth , who doth not bid men try all things by that light and spirit of god which only makes all truth , and all that is knowable of god ; and all things of god manifest in men , rom. . . and yet not vouch●afe them one beam of that only sufficient light to try any thing by ; yea , 't were no less then as meer mockage , as to bid a man read for his life in a dark dungeon , without sufficient light either of sun or candle , or take heed to him●elf by that light that shines in a dark place , pet. . . when there 's no true light there at all , and contrary also to all common s●nse and reason ; therefore there is in every man some of that light of god , which as its heede● , according to the measure of it , is able to guide him infallibly to judge of the matters , truths , wayes , d●ctrines , spirits , he is bid to try , on peril of being deceived to damnation , and a sufficient safe guide to lead him unto god. i wonder what light , spirit , rule , and tou●hstone all truth and all spirits are to be tryed by , if not by that measure of the spirit of truth it self , which convinces the world of sin , righteousness , and iudgement , and leads its followers into all truth . ob. if any say it can't be that spirit of god , nor his light in men the qua. call to , for that 's one of the things to be tryed , try the spirits whether of god or no , and that which is to be tryed , cannot be the rule of tryal . ans. i answer , why not ? did you schoolmen never learn that lesson your selves , which ye teach to others , viz. that regula , which is alwayes quid rectum , is m●nsura sui & obliqui : the strait rule must ever be the rul● or measure of it self , as well as of that which is crooked and faulty ? doth not the light manifest it self to be true light , as well as the darkness to be truly darkness ? and does not the sun as well shews it self to a man to be the sun , as it shews a dark cloud or smoak not to be it ? and why may not the inward light , which is truly and inde●d is only it fallible , be truly said to be ( autopiste ) believed for it self sake , and to be the rule of tryal that must try all spirits and sayings but its own , yea , it s own also , as i. o. falsly sayes , nor more nor less , but the self-same of the outward fallible , because ( flexible ) letter , which flows forth from it ? i say 't is true , we are to try all spirits and things , but as what man knows the things of a man , but the spirit of a man within himself , even so the things of g●d knows no man but the spirit of god , and that spirit in which that sp●rit of god reveals them , gor. ? what shall we try light and da●kness by , but by the light ? i know our divines say try all spirits by the scripture , all l●ghts ( so called , whether they be true or pretended ) by the letter : but herein they discover their own dancings of the rounds still in the night of their own thoughts , and in the midst of the mist of darkness , foramuch as ( no otherwise then as when we ask them , what 's the rule they go by in their analogical faith ? they say the scriptures ; and when we ask them what 's the rule they go by in their interpreting ●f that rule of their faith , i.e. the scriptures ? they tell us the analogy of their faith , even so ) when we ask them what are ye to try the scriptures by , whether they are of god or no ? they say by the spirit ; yea , though other things may be accessary , yet the testimony of the spirit is necessa●y , and only all-sufficient to this pu●pose ; so sayes not only b●ll in his ca●echize , but also all the builders of babel , and worsh●ppers of baal , in what form soever ( excepring popish priests , who are in a worse extreme , and deny ( as no rule ) for their own traditions sake , both scriptures and spirit altogether ) but when we ask them , but how shall we try that spirit of god whether of god or no ? for we are not believe every spirit ( to go round again ) they tell us by the scriptures ; and thus the poor clergy are cozened ; and how those they lord it over should scape d●lusion , and creep out of their babylonish confusion , i know not , till they come to that ( and some such thing there is , or else there 's no infall●ble knowledge of any thing ) which is of a certainty past all demonst●ation ; s● , that as to a blind man it can't be proved , so to a seeling man in need not , and that is the light of god in the con●cience , which ( as heeded ) and according to the measure of it , shews both it se●f and darkness , truth and deceit , good and evil , what god would have each man do for his own particular , and what to decline ( de iure ) what sins he lives in that he should forgo , what sins he does or does not forgo , de facto ; e.g. lying , cozening , cheating , drunkenness , adultery , murder , doing that ill to o●hers , be would not have done to himself , and such like ; final●y , what manner of man he is , upright or wicked , a t●ue man , or an hypocrite , &c. and all this ( though internally and spiritually , yet ) as truly and inf●llibly , as with his bodily eyes by the light of the sun , or but a candle he sees himself , and , with his natural animal understanding , he perceives himself to be a man , and not a beast . their . from psal. . . search me , o god , and know my heart , try me , and know my thoughts , and see if there be any wicked way in me , and lead me in the way everlasting ; is thus : if david had a light within him of it self a sufficient and safe guide to god , he should no need g●d to search , know , and try him , he might have led himself ; but 't is otherwise with david , therefore he knew he had not a light within him . and to this tune also i. o. belying the qua. represents them as saying , they need not any teaching , having a light within them , for a much as themselves are autodidactoi , taught of themselves , ex. . s. . opus non habent vel doctrina , &c. cum ipsi sunt autodidactoi , si iis fidem adhibere 〈◊〉 sit . rep. oh most absurd and abominable ! how do evil men and seducers war worse and worse , dec●iving , and being deceived ? 't was darkness , gross enough , to gain-say the being of a sufficient light to guide to god in all m●n ; but this is grosser , yea , no le●s then groapabl● to deny it to be in a●y men ; for if it be in any men , it is surely in the saints , and if in them , then in dav●d , whom they own as one , yet behold the m. as. and b. ds. of our times tell us now , that david himself , who sayes , thy word have i hid in me , that i might not sin against thee , p●a . . which word ●he calls a lamp to his feet , and a light to his paths , had not a light within him , as a sufficient safe guide to lead in the way everlasting , and consequently the saints , to whom ( nemine obstante ) paul sayes according to m●ses , the word is nigh thee , in thy heart , the word ●f faith , which we preach , had none of it in them as well as sinners . but that they may not , insanire sine ratio●e , they give a reason for it , such as 't is , viz. if david had a light of god within him sufficient , &c. he need not g●d to search , know , try , and lead him , he might have led him●elf , not heeding that all the saints that are taught by the light , and in that learn in silence in all subjection , are not autodidactoi , as these men suppose , but as paul saith , all saints are theodidactoi , learning of christ , and taught of god , t●es . . . that the qua. deny all teaching but that of god , or men moved by the same li●ht and spirit by which god teaches ; yea , i acknowledge freely , that he that teaches himself , and learns not of god , but leans to his own understanding , as the clergy does , hath but a fool to his master ; yet so far as david needed god to know and try his heart and thoughts , so far he needed gods light within him , there being no way whereby god ( who searches the heart , and tryes the reins , to give to everyman according to his wayes ) both searches , sees , and al●o shews unto man his thoughts , and leads him in the way everlasting , but by his own spirit , light , and word within man , which alone is to that end quick and powerful , sharper then any two edged sword , piercing and dividing asunder between the marrow and reins , soul and joynts , and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart , so that not any thing is bid from the sight thereof , but all things are naked and bare before him , with whom we have to do so far , as with that word and light which is gods own witness within man , whereof the letter , which is mans witness for god without man testifies , which leads to the light , while that light and truth it points at , leads only to the life and way everlasting , of which sayes the psalmist , o send out thy light and truth , that they may lead , and that they may guide and conduct me unto thy holy hill , and to thy tabernacle . their th from deut. . . psal. . . . rom. . . . is thus : what advantage then hath the ierk , and what pr●fit is there in circumcision , if ( each gentile had a light within him , as a sufficient guide in the things of god , as the qua. teach ) then they had known gods statutes and iudgements gods oracles had been committed to them as well as to the iews , they had had , as righteous statutes , and been as wise a nation as they : but these consequents are false , and contrary to the texts . rep. the advantage the iew , or circumcision outward , according to the flesh and letter , not spirit , over the gentile or uncircumcision outward , in the flesh and letter , was much every way , and yet not so much as is inconsistent with each gentiles having some measure of gods light within ; and the profit that the circumcision had ( which ye repeat your selves , yet are so blind that ye cannot see it ) was in that chiefly ( mark ) to them were committed the oracles of god , which term ( chiefly ) be tokens , that in some man●er and measure the oracles of god were committed to the uncircumcision also , which term could not be properly used , if the other had them not at all : if one should say the angel , or ecclesiastical leaders of the la●dicean church of england , are chiefly first or principally blinded , that would intimate that the people are in some measure blind , though not so much as their clergy in things of god. so this advantage the iew had in that , preaching the covenants , and prom●ses , and tenders of gods grace , was chiefly or first ( for the word is proton , rom. . . ) made unto them ; as act. . . to you chiefly or first ( proton ) god having raised up his son iesus , hath sent him to bless y●u , in turning away every one of you from his iniquities . so act. . 't was meet th● word of this salvation sh●uld ( proton ) first or chiefly be preached to you ; so sayes christ , luke . . that repentance and remission of sins should b● preached among a●l nations , beginning at ierusalem . again , they had the tables of the covenant , and the outward letter , and the types and shadows of the good things , and the earthly canaan , kingdome , city ierusalem , dominion , dignity and glory , that were the figures of the true , besides a measure of the inner light that led to the substance , and that the eternal life lay in , which the gentile had some of , together with them ; so the iew still had the p●eheminence and p●●●rity ( had they had the consideration to have improved it ) but the chi●f price being put into their hands , and they ( like fools ) not using it , nor looking through all this to the end of the things now abolished , nor to the light and power of the endless life , but to the letter and law only of a carnal commandment , which they boasted of , and yet brake it , they lost that preheminence , and let the gentiles out-strip them , and be chief as to the iustification , and they themselves became chiefly condemned , rom. . . . shall not the uncircumcision , which is by nature , if it fulfill the law , judge thee , who by the letter a●d circumcision dost transgress the law ? and verse . . . indignation , wrath , tribulation , anguish , upon every soul of man that worketh ●vil to the jew first , or chiefly ( proton ) and also to the gentile : so esd●as . . though they have not seen me with bodily eyes , yet in spirit they believe that thing that i say ; but if we speak of the true circumcision which is that of the heart and spirit , not of the letter , and of the true iew inwardly , his advantage over the iew outward , and the outward gentile , his advantage is indeed over all , for his praise is not of men , but of god himself : and this is that israel of god , and that iew ( and not the synagogue of satan , that say they are iews , and are not , but do lye , rev. . ) whose the salvation and kingdome , glory and covenants , and lively oracles , and all is , for salvtion is of the iews , luke . of abrahams seed , which are christs , and heirs according to the gospel promise , heirs of the world , , and blessed with faithful abraham , as they are of his faith , and his children , doing his works , who did not kill christ , as the clergy does , iohn . rom. . gal. . before the feet of which iew , the lord will make the pretended iew , whether natural iews , or meer nominal christians , to fall down and worship , and to know that he hath loved them ; and these are those iews , that israel and iacob ( but that the blind cannot look through the vail into the end of the type which is abolished ) of whom it s said , psal. . . . he sheweth his word unto jacob , his statutes and his iudgements unto israel , he hath not dealt s● with a●y nation , and as for his statutes and iudg●ments they have not known them ; for howbeit it the natural iew outward knows much that his le●ter tells him , and by the outward hearing of the ear the outward statutes and iudg●ments of god , and also the outward gentile ( though nominally christian ) by his light within ( as well as that natural iew by that and his letter too ) knows the iudgements of god , rom. . that those that d● such things as th●y do , are worthy of death ; yet the iew in spirit , or christian by nature ( not name only ) having within himself , as paul and they , co● . . known the terror of the lord , and felt the weight of his hand for sin , and seen h●w fearful a thing it is to fall into the hands of the living god , and known the power of his wrath ( while his judgements , which begin at his own house , past upon him in his own conscience ) which who ( . e. but they ) knows , saith the psalmist they can perswade others from what they have seen , felt , and handled of gods word , and his iudgements , which are a g●eat deep , yet to the rest that live alienated from the light , and by them have b●en purged from their filth , and warned from the wickedness of their way , and of simple been made wise , of which precious u●e gods iudgements are to all that thus witness and know them ; as psa. . yea , these are that nation of israel ( and not that which is now become a curse and perished ) out of what ever outwa●d nation or people they are gathered into the one light and spirit , of whom it s said , who is like unto thee , o is●ael ● a people saved by the lord , who rideth on the h●avens for thy help ? and in that of these mens quoting , deuter. . . what nation is there so great , that hath statutes and iudgements so righteous as all this law , which is set before them ( in the light ) their keeping and doing of which shall be their wisdome and understanding in the sight ●f those nations , which though now they count them fools , shall at last see themselves to have been infatuaated , and say of gods now dispersed and desp●sed seed of israel after the spirit , surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people . and as for others , though ( as r. b , i. t. t. d. and ye all say ) god hath not dealth so richly with any as he does with them that receive the riches of his grace , and they have not known his iudgements in such a measure as these know them , yet all , as they heed the light , in that may know them , as in some degree the heathen , heeding the light , are said to do , rom. . and degrees never vary the nature of a case , neither follows it , that because some know not so much as some , therefore many neither do nor ( for want of light ) can know nothing of the gospel , or saving truth of god at all . the th from rom. . . is thus : the light within neither did to paul , nor doth , nor can discover sin , even the sin of lust , without the law ; therefore the light within each person is not a sufficient guide of it self to lead to god , and to warrant mens actions , without the written word , i. e. scripture with them . rep. why not as well as before the law was written in an outward letter at all ? ( if by the law ye will needs understand nothing but outward scripture ) for some sure knew lust before moses wrote the law. but in very deed ( how deeply soever ye dream in this , as ye do in most things ) this law , without which the lust is not well known , is no other then the light it self within ; for the letter sayes lust is a sin , but 't is the light that shews thy lust to filth , envy , or any evil , to be thy sin within thy self ; and that law , by which the knowledge of sin comes , is that law and commandment which prov. . , is said to be the light and the lamp , even the w●rd that david hid of him , that he might see the way of covetou●ness that was ( e●sewise ) hid in his heart , and so not sin against g●d , by which only the young man , in whom lust is strong , taking heed thereunto , shall come to cleanse his way , which is never clean , while he hangs only on the lips of letter-stealers , and meer letter-lauders , who lauding the holy life they li●e not in , are at best but lyars , when they preach the t●uth : but this being elsewhere handled , i shall need to say the less of it here . so having done with these two mens thirty arguments , a few words more to their ten w●a● reas●ns against the true light in all men , and then i have done with them , as to that . reason . because what each man conceives according to his light within him , cannot be right and ●rue , for one mans conceits do sometimes contradict anothers : nor are th● quak. all of one mind when they follow the light within them . rep. this is one of your own cro●ked odd conceits indeed , but far from truth and good consequence , that the light or rule it self cannot be true or right , or a safe rule , because mens conceits of things to be , or not be according to it , may be contradictory one to another , and so not both true : 't is true , contradicto●y conceivings ab●ut one rule , cann●t be both true ; but he contradicts a●l truth and common reas●n , who conceives the rule or light it self to be ere the worse , or ere the less a true rule or light , because of that : two men may have contradict●ry th●ughts and conceits ( whereof one must needs be false ) about a piece of cloths agreeing , or nor agreeing with the ya●d or measure ; but it follows nor therefore from any thing but these faithless mens false and foolish fancies , that the ta●d is not a yard , or no good rule or measure ; and if this were good consequence r. b. and i. t. ( but that they are blind still ) might see it conclude more strongly against their letters being ( as they plead it to be ) the only true light or rul● , then against the light , since there 's as many silly senses , misty meanings , and contradictory conceits in the minds of them that are ministers of it , almost as they are ministers of it : for whereas they tell us of two qua. contradicting one another , i have told these four men i.o. t.d. r.b. i.t. of contradicting one another many times o're in their books against us , and shall do yet a little more before this book i here write be at an end ; yea , ●n truth ( as i have shewed already before , and shall do more behind ) there 's little else then confusion and contradiction to themselves by our men called clergy , well nigh in all the doctrines they have to do with ; besides , this rea●on rendred by them is not at all against the light of god , but against mens meer conceits , which we are more against then any men whatever , calling men out of their own conceivings , into gods own counsel the light ; so quid hoc ad rem ? reas. . because that which unvariable and alterable , cannot be a persons rule , for its the property of a rule to be invariable , and the same at all times : rules , measures , weights , dials , squares , and what other things are made , if they be varied , c●ase be rules ; rules should be fixt and certain , but nothing more variable then mens light in them . rep. igrant that 's no rule which is variable and alterable , and therefore have above from hence concluded , and do here again , from your own premises , conclude the letter ( the rule ye talk for , more then walk by ) not to be that only rule of faith and life , as ye would have it , but gods light in the heart , which the letter came from ; sith as i. o. teaches us in his epistle ( though he will not learn the same lesson himself , but teaches in his book as much against it as he does for it ) that the letter in the very original copies of it , which yet ye count an unalterable rule , is variable , alterable , flexible , at criticks wills , by the changing of some one point or hebrew letter ( alike in sound or shape ) no less then eight several wayes in that one very word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] and some of those as countradictory each to other , as life to death ( as is shewed more at large above ) besides all various lections that are risen ( by i. os. confession ) from the actual mistakes of them it transcribers . but the light ( however men run out into various conceits and imaginations about this or that , which and what is or is not agreeable to it ) is inviolably the same for ever , the councell and foundation of god , which is christs light in the heart , the rock of ages , stands sure , let the drunkards of ephraim rock and reel too and fro , or ramble about , and run out whether they will after their own councells and inventions . reas. the and are both of one unlearned leven and coincident with what 's urg'd above , viz. if the light within men were a safe guide and ride , then 't were unnecessary , unsafe , and foolish , for men to seek councell of others , each might be guided by his light● ; also then the meetings of quakers to consult about and 〈◊〉 in commu●●on to teach each other , or to communicate , revelations is needless and vain , sith each may guide himself : that 's done in va●● by more which may be done by 〈◊〉 , &c. rep. frustra sit per p●ara quod porest fleri ( t●m bene ) per pauciora , that 's done in vain by more , that may be done ( as well ) by lesse . is true , but what may be done better by more then fewer , is not in vain , and therefore as vis unita fortior is true among schollars , so in the multitude of councellors there 's in many cases so much the more safety is as true among christians ; yet it proves not but that there 's also security to assurance enough , wheee every one attends to that of god within himself : therefore it 's neither unsafe nor foolish ( as ye fool●shly affirm ) but may be both safe and profitable ( for so the apostles and elders did of old , act. . who yet in all were guided by the spirit ) to meet together in councell , but it s in no wise so absolutely necessary ( as ye make it ) to seek for other teachings , then that of the light and spirit of god within , in order to each mans holy living , much lesse such as is given out in your synods , where ye teach gods worship , and fear after your own thoughts and traditions ; yea to such as are turn'd to the spirits teaching , 't is said ye need not that any man teach you save as the same anointing teacheth you of all things , which is truth & no lye ; and if we do hear men speak that are moved by the spirit , it s not in vain , it being all one whether that holy spirit speak in me , or in another to me , we still own no other teaching but that of the anointing , and so the apostles ( though met in councell , yet ) concluded no other things to be imposed on men , then what seemed good to them and the holy spirit , which taught them , and impos'd ( not as ye do ) what seems good to your selves , who deny also the guidance of that infallible spirit to be present in the world at this day . reas. . then it s in vain to desire and expect revelations and discoveries which they had not before , sith they have the light within of themselves : therefore when they compose themselves to their quaking fits , that they may have some word of the lord to speak to people , what 's this but an hypocriticall devise , blasphemous , false and unrighteous , or else needless : sith they have a light within them sufficient to guide them without other revelation ? rep. this is nothing but an addition to these mens many lyes ( for which they must know part in the la●● ) and blasphem●us reproach●s of the qua. who own no such thing as a light in men that is of themselves , but that only , which is ( though in them ) yet of god : as for composing of themselves to quaking fits , hypocriticall devices , and pretences of new revelations , and much more such like riff-raff , as is reckon'd to them in this th reason , the qua. deny them , who expect no other then true revelations of that old true gospell in that way of waiting on god in that true old light , r. b. and i. ts. title page pretends to exalt , but their book ignorantly and impiously depresses , as new light and darknesse , in which true old light ●f god in the heart it was ever revealed from faith to faith to the just , who lived by faith in that light before the letter was . reas. . by asc●ibing so much to the light within them , satan hath advantage to draw men to ho●●id acts , sith what ever he can imprint on them as their light , they must receive it without any examination , and obey it . rep. what silly stuff is this ? as if because satan may transform himselfe as an angell of light in mens hearts to decieve them , if they look not well to the true light of god that shines therein , and receive not the truth told by it in the love thereof : therefore there 's no true light there shining : as if because there 's much errour and many lyes , that the father of lyes and ruler of the darkness seeks to beguile by , and does beguile unstable soules by : therefore there 's no truth to be beguiled from , and to be s●aid upon : scilicet , sic aiunt , praedic●nt , clamitant , non probant . reas. . then he that 's counted unlearned and foolish , if he follow his own light , doth as well as he that 's never so wise and learned , whereas solomon tells , eccl. . , . that wisdome excells folly as far as light excells darkness . rep. why not ? he that 's counted unlearn'd and foolish by the wise men of this world , who follow the foolishnesse of their own fleshly fancies , whose wisdom is foolishness with god , if he follow the light of god , doth not only as well , but a thousand-sold better then such wise and learned as abovesaid , and the wisdome of these that are fools with you , excelleth your seeming wisdome , in which ye are acting real folly , as far as light excelleth darkness ; by all which wisdome of your own ye cannot discern so much as your own scipture , which tells you of a way which is called the way of holiness , in which the unclean cannot walk , though never so worldly wise , yet the way-faring man that walks in it , though a fool , shall not erre therein , isa. . . reas. . then the phylosophers light was sufficient to guide them , for surely they had as much light without the scripture as any , and did improve it to the utmost ; and the jewish rabbins , besides the natural light in them , did by the study of the law , and traditions of elders , endeavour to attain the knowledge of god , to whom yet christ was foolishness ; and paul useth this expr●bation , where 's the wise ? where the disputer of this world ? rep. the phylosophers , and the iewish rabbins , whereof the one had the light within ( which ye call natural , but is indeed gods law , which is spiritual ) and not the scripture without , and the other both that light within , which is the law , and the letter without also , did neither of them improve it to the utmost ( as ye falsly assert ) nor follow that light , but one their own thoughts , inventions , and imaginations only of things ( as ye do yours ) the other their own senses , meanings , and traditionary interpretations of the letter , and so ran both out mostly into a phylosophy and science ( falsly so called ) and into meer v●in deceit , as your selves do , who are the same generation of disputers of this world , whose wisdome god is making foolish , and by that foolishness of preaching ( as ye count that of the qua. ) saving such as believe in that light they call to : if the iewish rabbins , who were as well skill'd in scripture as your selves , did get so little saving knowledge of god by their study of the law or letter , and tradition of elders , because not looking to the law or light in the heart , which the letter sends to , ye may ●ee the reason why ye are so succesless in your seeking god , as to know so little of him as ye do , who are yet seeking him in no other way then they , ioh. . . and as much as ye despise the heathen phylosophers as ethnicks , some even of them that did according to the law or light they had , wil as much judge many of you nominal christians ( as they did the iews ) who with the iews make boast of the letter of the law , yet through breaking thereof dishonor god , and cause the name christian to be a stink among the gentiles . reas. . if every mans light within him were a safe guide to him in religion and morality , then do all law-makers ill , &c. and judges ill , in passing sentence of condemnation on men , then a● m●●●ill to reprove , &c. parents , tutors , schoolmasters , ill to teach men otherwise , then is all government and magistracy unprofitabl● , rulers are not ministers of god to us for good , but only to molest and oppress us ; then they that set their children to school do foolishly , vniversities and schools of arts to breed up in liberature and good manners are vain , and all these are to be abolished , which were the way to lay all waste , &c. to level people in manners and knowledge , &c. to reduce to barbarism , to make the nation a wilderness ; in fine , to drive gods spirit from us , and introduce unclean spirits to repossess our land , to expel all that is excellent , and may better us , and to fill the nation with a generation of fools , in whom god hath no pleasure , eccl. . . and by consequence to condemn all the man of worth in the world , since the c●●ation , of folly and blindness . rep. the former part of this rantipole reason is refell'd before , in former parts of this book of mine , where the very contrary rather is abundantly shewed , viz. that 't were ill in judges , rulers , magistrates , parents ( whose correction of ill doers , for whom the law only is , tim. . . we own ) to reprove , condemn , and punish any for doing contrary to the pu●e religion , and undefiled before god ( which is morality or good manners , and to keep a mans self unspotted of the ill manners , and pollutions of the world ) if the persons so reproved , condemned , punisht and corrected , had not a light in them sufficient to teach them that true religion , for all just condemnation must arise from mans having light , & not loving to live by it , and the light only is the worlds condemnation , ioh. . . and as for the last clauses about tutors and schoolmasters , vniversities , and schools of arts , to breed up in literature and good manners , as they pretend to do , they had more need then any other places and people in this nation to be taught them●elves what true religion and good manners are ; yea , the very principles thereof , if that light in every mans conscience that teaches them to live honestly , righteously , and soberly ( as in truth it is ) and to keep a mans self unspotted of the world , be that pure religion ●hat's undefiled before god ( as the scripture sayes it is ) and not that of those who are pure and religious in their own eyes , and yet never mean to be washed from their filthiness : i have spoken much above , how vain they are of all places throughout this nation , and add thus in brief , that ( unless they come to be better reformed then ever they have been since i knew them ) they are at this day ( not for want of a light within , but of attending to that light that is in their hearts that teaches them better ) so full of va●ity , prid● , luxury , filth , enmity , hatred , malice against truth , insolent scoffing at good men , abusive carriages toward the qua. in their meetings , 〈…〉 , ●eastliness , rudeness , ignoranc● , violence ( as that of the horse and mule , whose mouths , lest they do mischief , must be held in with bit and bridle ( as the schollars have not been of late so much as they should be , by either may●rs or vicechanc●llors without in our two vniversities , nor by the light in themselves ) which ( how ere they bear the names of nurseri●s of religion , and have some seeming shews thereof ) shews all their religion to be in vain , iam. . . that the abode of them in the nations in this deformed state wherein they stand , as nurseries of naughtiness , more then honesty , is rather ( as it hitherto hath been ) a way to lay wast all common civility , and corrupt all good manners , and bring men to barbarism , and make the nation a wilde●●●ss , yea , an acheldama , or field of blood , if people every where should be as bloody as the schollars have been at oxford and camb●idge against the saints ( witness what 's above declared , and the late pranks at cambridge since that was written ) and in sine , to drive away the spirit of god f●om among us , introduce unclean spirits to repossess us , and our lord , to expel all that is , and all them also that are excellent , and may better us ( as the qua. do , who seek to bring all men to innocency and honesty , a little of which shall 〈◊〉 - weigh all scholastical sibtilis , and 〈◊〉 piety , in the day that are coming on ) and in a word , to fill the nation still ( which hath been too full of such for many ages and generations upwards ) with that generation of locusts and caterpillars , that have eat up every green thing in it , and that whole fffraternity of fools , in whom god hath no pleasure , who are more ready to offer their ( cains ) sacrifices . then to hear and obey what god himself saith in them , eccles. . . and lastly , to condemn all the sincere hearted saints , and honest hearts since the creation , which are men of such worth in the world , that ( what ere the worthless wise men thereof say falsly to the contrary ) the world is not worthy of them , of that fully and blindness , which is found more among the foresaid fffraternity , then among any other whomsoever : so that i will not say ( according as they may be ordered ) how useful such tutors and vniversities may be , but as so disorderly as they have been , they may not only to every sober eye seem altogether vain and worthless , but worse then naught it self , and cages of every unclean and hateful bird ; neither have the many frovolous chaffy formalities that lawyers literature hath led out into , proved more destructive to the substance , equity , and very end of the law , which at first was good , then that fleshly wisdome , and loose kind of literature that is learned at universities , that hath led men out into fulness of all filthiness , open profaness , infinite fopperies , under a 〈◊〉 of piety , or form of godliness , been destructive hitherto to the very practice and power of it , and to the purity of religion , and the gospel : and though iniquity abounds most openly among ●uch as are under their tuition , yet 't were better then it mostly hath been , if teachers and tutors of all ●orts , whom ye so ta●k for , were not of those ts. by whom vniversiti●s are debaunched , and truth turned upside , both there and in all countr●es , as well as by tyth●-monge●s and turn-c●ats . reas. . if every man have a light within him sufficient to guide him , then ( quoth i. t. who ●s back 〈◊〉 by r. b. ) i suppose th●y will grant i have such a light within me ; and if every man is to follow this light , then i am to follow my light within me : now my light within me shews me , that the qua. opinion about the light in them is an errour , that they pervert souls , by bidding men follow it , &c. and this is not only my light , but the light of millions besides me , yea , i think all sober men have found their own darkness and ignorance , and groaned under it , bewailing it to god , and applying themselves to the use of such means as might bring light into their souls . i conclude , that this opinion of the quakers , which i have refuted , is the most s●ttish opinion that ever was hatched , instilled into them by the prince of darkness , not by the spirit of g●d , and tends to the dissolution both of religio●s discipline , and civil government ; yet they say , or rather brawl somewhat for their opinion . rep. i know well enough that thy own light i.t. and thine own r. b. ( which is da●kne●s ) doth dictate to you , that the qua. testimony to the light of god in men , is an errour , and a perverting of souls , because it converts so many to god , and turns them aside from attending any more to them that teach for hire : but we say not , what ere ye ●uppo●e , that ye are at all to follow that : but what we also testifie to , and bid you follow , is the light of god. rep. the 〈◊〉 and thou r. b. either have , or have had ( if not now lost it ) such a light within you from god , as is a sufficient safe guide to god , and that ( though its evident ye have not done it ) you should have followed , and if you had , you should have known us ( as now you do not ) it would have shewed you that the qua. doctrine of the light within is no errour , and that they do not pervert , but convert souls to god , by bidding men follow it ; and if ye have found by experience your own darkness and ignorance ( as ye say all sober men have , among which you surely count your selves ) bewail that your darkness unto god , and yet apply your selves to the use of such means as may bring the light to shine out into your souls , which is to come more soberly then ever yet to the light within you , which shews you your own darkness , without terming it ( disparingly ) errour , delusion , conceit , and ( as i.o. does jeeringly ) figment , the infallible doctor , i know not what god , &c. the imagined christ of the qua. some spiritual every thing , truly nothing , &c. lest at last indeed ( not walking in it while you have it ) your light go out in obscure da●kness , lest it be totally taken from you , and you cast into the utter darkness , never to see the light of god ( in whose light the qua. see light ) any more ; the best light in you then being but merae tenebrae & caecitas , blindness and darkness it self : but if it be so that the best light in all , or any of you four , i have mostly more or less had to do with throughout this book , in answer to your selves , and all men that are of your dark minds about the light , be already become darkness : oh how great is that darkness ! the gospel is then hid indeed to them that are lost , though i wish you well , yet i cannot help it any more then you ; yet just it is upon you for your flying out in such fiery twittle twattles , and fierce fightings against his light , and god is righteous in taking vengeance , yet i will hope better things of you , till i see the worst , and desire that ye may yet know the things that make for your peace , before they be hid for ever from your eyes : howbeit , for the truths sake , as well as in love to your souls , i shall not spare the same sharpness towards you , as you are found in against the light and it . i conclude ( against you in your own kind ) that this opinion of yours , and m●st divines , concerning christs not enlightning all men in any wise with saving light , in contradiction to that undeniable truth in this point the qua. testifie to , is the most sottish opinion that ever was hatched , instilled into you and others by the prince of darkness , not by the spirit of god , and tends to the dissolution both of all religion ( for what religion can all men be call'd to , if all men be not by christ enlightned to do what he would have them ) and all civil government also , yet the blind guides of the blind , whom they draw with them into the ditch , who will say something against every thing , rather then own truth as it is in iesus , do say , or rather brawl somewhat for that their opinion , which is sufficiently already above refuted . chap. vi. having done with the doctrine concerning the universality of the true lights being in some measure in all men , which leads such as are led by it unto life , and with the rest , which the priests generally oppose the qua. in , as at first propounded . i shall now fall upon some brief animadversion of their piteous arguments against it , and poor answers to our plain arguments for it , wherewith the priests resist and withstand the truth , as it s testified to by the qua. -so called , as to that point of perfection , as to the possibility of purgation , and real remission of sin , and full freedome from any more commission of it , whether actually or assentatively in this life . as for r. b. and i. t. as after a long unquiet quarrel with the qua. ( who call men to no other at all ) about the light and spirit of christ , as such foolish fires as will lead men into nothing but bogs and praecipices , page . and much more of that sort , themselves fall a calling and commending all men to the same , in many good words of exhortation , specially in the last sermon of their book , which consists of exhortations to the light , doctrine or teaching of christ within ( excepting here and there ( as the manner of most parish ministers is ) a perenthesis or interpositition of now and then some dirty dashes and filthy flerts against it , to sence men off from ever coming too neer it , lest it make them wiser then their teachers and leaders , and so lead and take them off from taking much more heed to the wind of their whiffling words and tangling talk of truth for tith ) so they are principled against the foresaid perfections atainbleness in this life , as is evident in other of baxter's , and t s his works : yet in this book of theirs that i have at present to do with i mind not at present where they contradict it , but are found in sundry expressions much rather confirming and preaching it unawares , and ministring mediums in proof of it e.g. p. . where they tell us thus : r.b. j.t. christ leads alwayes in the right way , so that whosoever follows him . rep. and some do surely , these men are not so ignorant sure as to deny that . r.b. j.t. shall be directed aright in his way , be guided into the way of peace . rep. that must needs be out of all sin , for every sin or transgression is the wrong way , the way of wickedness , and there 's no peace saith god unto the wicked . and p. . where they tell us thus : r.b. j.t. christs words have such precepts and revelations as make a man spirituall , heavenly , wise , like unto god. rep. which if any sinner be and be not rather carnall , earthly , foolish unlike god , and lke the devill , then i am yet to seek ( and if these sinners and pleaders for mens necessity of sinning while they live , and yet call themselves saints , can tell me otherwise , let them tell me ) what a saint , and what a sinner is and p. . . where they tell us thus . r.b. i.t. all that christ spake . rep. whose speeches were and are successefull to accomplish their end among some at least assuredly , or else let these men speak it out , if they dare , that christ never obtains his end in speaking to any at all to whom he speakes . r.b. i.t. it was to ease the burthen . rep. and such the least in is , where ere it is , whether it be felt or no. r.b. i.t. to direct to god. rep. whom no sinner in his sins can come to . r.b. i.t. to reform the evils in gods worship . rep. whom no evill doer or sinner in his sins can worship any more accceptably then cain whose sacrifice was shut out while his sin lay at the door , or then david himself , whose prayer would not be heard , if he regarded iniquity in his heart , and every one does so more or lesse , while , in the least , he commits it , or else surely he would not commit it , no man doing that he hath no regard at all unto , but he who remaines yet under the devills power taken captive by him at his will , having not yet attained to that liberty wherewith christ ( euen here ) makes many free , and ( even here ) is by him attainable , if men with paul , who throw the warfare at last attain'd it , be sincere in the same way of pressing after it . r. b. i.t. to take men off from covetousness , hypocrisie , and such evills as are pernic●●us . rep. and if the least motion to sin ( if assented to , not else ) be any otherwise then so , and not in some measure pernicious ( though some great ones may be more greatly pernicious then other some ) let that of god in the conscience of these men judge , when paul sayes the motions of sins which warr'd in his members ( while he was yet under the law , and not in the liberty of christ , and but in the combate , and short of the conquest ) brought forth fruit in him unto death : and iames c. . that if lust , be but perrmitted to conceive ( as it does in such a degree as any one is led away after it ) it bringeth forth sin , and sin when it s finished , or brought forth . e. into its being ( as it is when lust is but assented to and the mind genders to gether with it ) it bringeth forth death . r.b. j.t. with what ever else might bring nigh to god. rep. whom all sin , even the least in some mea●ure , though ( some more then some ) separates the soul from . r.b. j.t. and alienate men from this present evil world . rep. which every man is nigh to more or lesse till he be totally taken off and alienated utterly from the corruptions that are in it through lust . r.b. j.t. and accordingly so were and are the effects , regeneration or new birth ; mortification of the deeds of the body ; the salvation of man rep. and if these were and are ( as ye say they were and are ) not only the ends , but also the effects of what christ spake or speakes , then by such as continue to heare his voice and follow him , and not such strangers to him as ye are ( and so some did , and now do , yea ever all his own sh●●p ) all these things in time , even here , both were and are attainable and attained also , that ye speak which are ipsissima , the very things we plead against you ; for in the point of perfect freedom from sin wherein ye oppose us , viz. mortification of the deeds of the body , which is never effected till every sin be destroyed or subdued , so as not to be so much as assented to , much lesse acted , the very least being a deed or member of the body of it , and mortification ( effected ) no lesse , but somewhat more , if more can be , then a common killing in our common english acceptation of it , even a mangling the dead body of it all to pieces : regeneration , which however taken by our dimm divines for the first act of conversion onely , or beginning to face about from sin towards god , is a real new birh , or being begotten back into that divine nature , which man in sin is degeneraled from , and not onely so , but also ( as taken in its right latitude and consummation , not initiation only , for the thing or end effected ( & so ye speak ) and not prosecuted onely , the growth up in that image of christs divine nature , in whom was no sin , to the very measure of the fulness of his stature eph. . and salvation of man , which is not in , but from the sin first , before ever there be any right rejoycing in god , or any true salvation from the sorrows that are entail'd to it , by him who came to save his people from their sins : who in this sense mainly is sent forth as a light to enlighten us , and raised up as an horn of salvation in us his people , that we being delivered from all our enemies ( among which sin , even in our selves is the chiefest ) and from the hands of all that hate us ( as all sinners do such as preach to them that unpleasing doctrine of perfect purging from the sins they love ) might serve him without fear in holinesse and righteousnesse all the dayes of our life . for as much therefore as in this book of r.b. and t.d. i find them ( at present ) uttering so much as that above and perhaps more ( but that i hasten ) that makes for it , and yield us arguments out of that their own armory in proof of that perfect freedom from sin here which we plead for , but nothing directly against it , though they are against it , i shall therefore ( having made use of that little of theirs above that is very much to our purpose against them ) quit these . r.b. and i.t. and addresse more directly to i.o. and t. d's . deliveries of themselves , as against that doctrine . and as for i.o. i have so much the lesse to say to him by how much 't is but little that he meddles in that matter throughout that whole book of his i have herein had to do with , but for as much as that little in bulk is as stark naught as it 's nothing to his purpose he must excuse me if , for truths sake , i be as blunt with him , as he is keen and bloody against the teachers of it , and as plain in opening his contradiction to him , as 't is plain that he contradicts himselfe in what he sayes against it in the very sight and open view of all men . i confess he dilates not so largely against it , as t.d. does ; but barely and nakedly nibbles about the business : yet he puts forth such a paw as wherby we may guesse how rudely & unreasonably rampant he would be in his repulses of us in that point , if we that hold it were not as much out of his reach , as 't is out of the reach of the best wisdome he hath to render one solid reason at all against it . one thing that i.o. sayes , whereby we may clearly conclude him to be one who as cloudily concludes there 's no attainment to a perfect purging from sin in this life , is this viz. having in proof of its perfection from its efficacy to effect its own end spoken above of the immediate end of the scripture to be * direction in our knowledge of god , and that obedience that is due to him , that doing his will ( as none when he sins does ) we may attain salvation ( which is from sin sure , or from nothing ) and the enjoyment of himselfe and told us that the perfection of all discipline consists in its efficacy to effect its own end , so that that onely is to be held perfect which is sufficient to effect its end , and that imperfect which is not of force to effect it , and how in this very respect the scripture is a most perfect rule , as it accomplishes its foresaid end : and telling us also that the use of the scripture by which this end is effected , is only in this present world , sith the scripture ceases , as to all its uses ends and purposes , in that to come , and consequently must either effect that its end , even our perfect salvation from sin here , or not at all , & so prove it selfe to be contrary to what i.o. sayes of it , viz. no perfect rule , he tells us withall to the utter contradiction of his assertion as to the scridtures perfection ( being it semes principled against the qua. as to the point of perfecting holyness so as to cleansing from all sin , and left hee run upon that dangerous rock of runing out of all lust while he lives here ) that its a most false thing to affirm that the holy scripture doth or can , while we are in this world , obtain all its own end , in respect of us , which end he had said before is our obeying god , and doing his will ( which is not to sin , iohn . . ) and our salvation , which is from sin : thus incidit in scyllam , &c. the man of sin to avoid one extream , which he is extreamly against , viz. being ruined against the rock of perfection , he runs down extreamly into another , viz. the gulf of self contradiction and confusion . verbum sat sapienti , i need do no more to the opening of this round to wisemen , then to set it down before them thus ( for this is the sum of i. os. sayings ) nothing is perfect , but what effects its end , the end of the scripture is making men perfect , this end the scripture cannot effect in this life , for here 's no perfection , nor can the scripture effect this end in the life to come , for there it ceases to work , and effects nothing at all ; yet the scripture , the perfection of which can consist in no other thing then its effecting its end , which end it never effects , is for a●l that most perfect . what more i.o. sayes in short , is this , that the * fanaticks ( so he is pleas'd still to stile the qua. a seed among whom some at least are the most sincere saints that are at this day upon the earth ) are not perfect , t●ei●lyes , deceits , bainour wickednesses , and hypocrisies , do testifie to us ; but in very deed , punishments and imprisonments ought to be inflicted upon them that impudently glory , that they are free from all these , and other sins , even the least . rep. i.o. it seems , and the rest of his gang of ghostly fathers , and godly gameliels , are sentenced already by himself , as worthy to be persecuted in such wise ( as the qua. have been at oxford by his means ) and punisht , and imprisoned , as impudent boasters , if ever they shall pretend ( whilst here on earth ) to be free from lying , and fraud , and wickedness , and hypocrisie , and other sins ( specially if from the least , or from all uncleanness of flesh and spirit , all ungodliness and worldly lusts , which yet they 'l tell men sometimes ( in a sound of stoln words ) from those texts of paul , cor. . . tit. . . . they must cleanse themselves from , deny , and have nothing to do with in this present world , because else there 's no purging in the world to come : so that we see what fruits we are to expect from that fraternity of false prophets , and what little likelihood of peoples being much profited by these stealers and sellers of the apostles good words , when they believe it even impossible that the things they impose in the name of god , themselves , or any people here , where they say it must be done if ever should be impowred to perform . . i query , whether if paul had come to oxford in the time of i.os. vice-chancellorship there , and made the same modest confession to the praise of god ( no other then which the best of the qua. ever made ) which he made , that he was once ( in his own conceit ) alive without the law ( or till he and the law , i. e. the light , came to face each other ) but when that came , then he saw sin was alive in him , and he dead , and that he was ( then while beginning to war with it ) sold under it , and captivated by it , and wretched by reason of it , rom. . but that now ( when he wrote this ) the law of the spirit of life ( or light in his mind ) which was by christ , had made him free from th●t law of sin and dea●h ( which warr'd in his members , and oft enslav'd him ) i say , when paul made this , and many other modest acknowledgements of gods grace and power towards him , in delivering him , and how now he walkt not after the flesh , but the spirit , and how holily , and justly , and unblameably he and other apostles behaved themselves , thes. . . . . &c. and should have said ( as to the same effect he did ) that they were no lyars , nor deceivers , nor wicked ones , nor hypocrites , and cor. . . could do nothing against the truth ( as every sin is ) but for the truth , and such like ; whether i.o. would have punisht him as an impudent boaster , yea or no , and have put him in b●cardo , where besides whippings , and other punishments and abu●es , some of the qua. have been put ? if yea , see what kind of provision the poor flock of christ must expect from out of the silken snapsacks of these university shepherds and overseers , if they had the over-sight of all corrective , as much as they have it directive over magistrates and all : and what a generation of godly ministers ( as they have been call'd ) have grown up under pretence of reformation of late , even in old england , which has been so long renewing [ as well as in new-england , which is now growing old again , where they punish the same seed to death● where however they idolize christs holy apostles now they are dead , would no less then persecute them were they now alive ; if nay , i would know quo iure ? some reason , if that these rabbies can render a right one , why the saints that walk and live in , and after the same holy spirit now , that leads into all truth , and no transgression , and witness the same freedome from the law of sin thereby , should for making the same confession to the glory of gods grace be so ill used ( as i.o. would have them ) as impudent boasters , any more then them of old ? what ever the qua. do and are , who by the grace of god being what they are , glory in nothing of their own , knowing they have nothing but what they have received . i shall here clear many clergy men more then any men ( unless some lawyers be as clear as them ) from that so punishable crime of glorying and boasting in being free from the least sin , or from those fore-named grosser evils either ; for as if they should be found glorying in freéd●me from either , they would be found lyars one way more then now they are , so in truth both those kinds of wicked , hypocritical , deceitful lyars , i mean in plain terms , many priests , and some lawyers , who can neither of them live on poor mens labours [ as many of them do in all lands , any longer then while men lye dead in their trespasses and sins , are [ for ought i find ] so far from glorying in their immunity from those and all other iniquities , that like those old christian enemies to the cross of christ , phil. . . . whose end is destruction , whose god is their belly , who mind earthly things , and whose glory is in their shame , they glory yet in that immunity and freedome they can get from the powers that are intoxicated with the wine of the wrath of their fornications , to commit all evil , and so continue in those lyes , deceits , frauds , cheats , hypocrisies , bloody persecutions , spoilings of mens goods , devouring widows houses for tythes , and for a pretence making long prayers , and much more wickedness and prophaneness , which , from these law and gospel spoilers , is long since gone forth into all lands . by that little cloud then which appears dropping from i.os. pen , though no bigger then a mans hand , we can see his complexion , and what muddy stuff was working , what bloody storms of persecution were brewing in i.os. mind against that more tender , and true tenet of perfect purging from sin in this life , and the innocent asserters of it ; and so i shall take him , till he either takes in again that terrible tale of his , or at least till he tells the world , that it repents him that ere he told it for a joynt antagonist to the qu● . together with t.d. in that point . nevertheless t.d. being the only man that mannages that matter , more at large , on behalf of himself and many others , i shall without more ado let this short return stand as to i.os. brief opposition of us in this point of perfection , and the rather , sith i believe it will be long enough ere it return from him to us again with any solid or satisfactory answer , and address my self to deal more down-rightly , yet no otherwise then uprightly neither with t.ds. writing , with whom i , together with r. h. g. w. and a.p. also once have had to do about it by word of mouth . the second quest. between him and the qua. as himself relates both it , and what little he thought fit , which is scarce one word to his ten , in such manner also as might best serve his turn , to set down of our discourse with him about it , pamp. was this ; whether in this life the saints attain to a state of perfection , or freedome from sin ? which we ( as to the possibility thereof , viz. that they may , and also as to the necessity that they must be purged from sin in this life , or no where , there being no purgatory in the world to come ) holding in the affirmative , t.d. brings in himself , replying thus ; t.d. your doctrine of perfection is against the tenor of the scripture , let us hear what you can say for the proof of it : and to r. h. urging ioh. . . whosoever is born of god , doth not commit sin . t.d. replyes thus , viz. t.d. that cannot be meant of freedome from sin , but either there is an emphasis in the word ( sin ) intending under that general ●e●m one kind or sort of sin , which is spoken of , john . . there is a sin unto death : or if not in the substantive , on the verb poiei , which notes to make a trade of business of sin , as 't is explain'd , ver . . where he uses the same verb , for the devil sinneth from the beginning : he hath never ceased to sin since he began , thus indeed the saints sin not , but a course of sin is broken off , and there is not such a free trade between the soul and sin , as in the state of unregeneracy , whereof this is given for one character , that cannot cease to sin , pet. . . rep. . here thou art in thy old wonted way of scruing the scripture besides the proper import , and ordinary literal sense of the words , and true mind of the spirit in them , into thy own perverse mind and meaning , why cannot that be meant of freedome from sin , but that men who are not fully willing to be freed from it , and are in love with it , and being loath to leave it , are loath to see it ? it s more hard not to see , then it is to see that it is meant of freedome from sin : what should , or can it be meant of else ? are not freed me from sin , and not committing of sin , made synominous as committing sin , and not being freed from it , are made by christ himself opposites to each other , ioh. . . . . . . the iews thought they had the fullest freedome that men could have in this world , because they were the visible church , abrahams seed , and such like externals as they then trusted in , as ye now do , though not yet freed from that thing call'd sinning , to serve the lord alone , whose service the very common-prayer-book it self was wont to call perfect freedome : but christ learns them another lesson , viz. that they had none of that true gospel freedome that the saving knowledge of the truth gives , and which he makes such as continue in his words , and so are his disciples indeed , and not in word only , as ye are , free withall , which is a full freedome in deed and truth , and not half a one , or by the halves , such as that is ye talk of , who upon the account of some private patent , alias particular personal election thereto from everlasting , prattle to your selves of freedome from guilt , while ye remain in your filth , and of a general iustification an● pardon for all sins past , present , and to come in this world , expecting your purging or iustification , as to sanctification from sin and ●ncle●●ness , not in this world , but that to come : but verily , verily , i say unto you ( quoth he ) he that committeth sin , is yet the servant of sin , and must know , for all his boasting , he has not long to abide in the house and church of god , wherein ishmael-like he scoffs at the right heir isaac , as if himself alone , who is but a bastard , born of fornication , should inherit all , and will prove an out-cast himself at last before the son , who is born of god , and free indeed , and the only true heir of all things ; full freedome from sin , and committing of it , are oppos'd to each other by christ ; therefore freedome from it , and not committing it , are the same . to wind out of this , t.d. would seem to say somewhat , but of two things he can't tell which , but one of the two must be it , rather then the truth : either there is ( quoth he ) an emphasis in the word sin , intending under that general term one kind of sin , viz. sin unto death ; or if not in the substantive , on the verb poiei , which notes to make a trade , or business of sin , as the devil does , who sinneth from the beginning , and never ceased from sin since he began : thus indeed the saints sin not , &c. rep. as to they emphases , they are the foolish empty conceits of thy own , and other mens brains , there 's no such emphasis either in the substantive or verb , as ye all prate , whereby the spirit should be understood as speaking otherwise then he truly means , or meaning otherwise then he plainly sayes , whose words are plain to the honest heart , though not to idol shepherd , who by the sword of the lord hath his right eye utterly darkned , because he hath darkned the lords counsel by his own words without knowledge : and if the eyes of the seers were not shut up from seeing the very letter they prate about , as well the mysteries of the spirit , which the animal man can never know by all his searchings ( they being revealed only by the spirit ) they might see that the text it self makes no difference between sinning , and committing sin , and that the one is no more emphatical then the other : and if t.d. who in the same page . where he mentions the words , were not so busie in his mind about the meaning , and did not make such a warbling noyse ( as shallow waters ever do more then those that are deepest ) with harping at this , that , and t' other silly sense , he might in coolness have considered , that in the same ninth verse , as well as the eigth , and others about it , the spirit makes no difference between amartian poiein , and amortanein , to commit sin , and to sin , but uses them promiscuously . ouk amartanei , every one that abides in him sinneth not . so ver . . he that commits sin is of the devil , for the devil amartanei sinneth from the beginning : and because t.d. seems to put an emphasis upon the word [ sinneth ] as well as [ committeth sin ] making the word [ sinneth ] ( as here used ) to amount to somewhat more then an ordinary sort of sinning , as here it intends some high or desperate degree of sin , even that which ioh. . . is call'd kat ' exoken , a sin unto death without remedy , or forgiveness for ever , because never to be repented of , as in opposition to all other sins that men do commit , which ( when this alone , being ever joy●'d with impenitency , is impardonable ) are all , upon that true repentance they are yet in possibility of , who commit them , pard●nable , or possible to be forgiven ; for this is t. ds. emphasis on the substantive [ sin ] ( for i shall not wrong him so much as to take him meaning , as the papists do , who put such difference between peccatum veniale , and mortale ; as if some sins only without repentance were mortal , or to death , and some venial , or not to death , though not repented of at all , your church of england opposing them in this , and holding every sin , yea , the least ( unrepented of ) unto death , though t. d. would have suspected me to be a iesuite for a less matter ) this concludes him that is born of god to be ( even qua sic , as born of god ) as easily liable to , and excludes him no more then it does the very wicked themselves , from the committing of any sin , that the wickedest can commit ( except that ye call the sin against the holy ghost it self ) which is so gross an absurdity , that he can be no spiritually wise man that does not feel him to be spiritually infatuated that so imagines : for still though the devil sinneth , and he that is of the devil doth nothing else ( but nicodemus , though a master in israel can't read this birth of god ( which is anothen , from above of water and the spirit , john . john . which blows where it lists , and the priests hear an outward sound thereof , but know not whence it comes , nor whether it goes , nor how he is that is born of the spirit ) as plain as 't is in the text , which they read more then that truth tells of ) yet , as he that sinneth is of the devil , and he that is of the devil sinneth altogether , so he that sinneth not , but doth righteousness only , is of god ; and he that is born of god , and the spirit , which is spirit , and not flesh , sinneth not at all , but overcometh the world , and keepeth himself , that the wicked one so much as toucheth him not , john . . neither can he sin , even eatenus , because born of god , whose own seed , or incorruptible word , pet. . . which condemns all , and consents to no sin , remaineth in him . yet lest it hold not this way , t.d. puts another string to his devils bow , and shoots out another sense , as emphatically as he can , with all his might , by which notwithstanding ( as he did in the other three questions above spoken to ) he hath utterly lost the game , and given the whole cause , and this question contended for , so clearly ( if there should be no more shooting about it ) that by all his scrambling shifts , whereby he scrabbles and scraffies to gather it up again , he will , never recover of the wound that he hath unawares given to himself ; for mark how his own emphasis on the verb poiei undoes him : it notes ( quoth he ) to make a trade or business of sin as the devil does , who never ceased to sin : thus indeed the saints sin not , but a course of sin is broken off , and there is not such a free trade between the soul and sin , as in the state of unregeneracy , whereof this is given for one character that cannot cease from sin , pet. . . rep. to say nothing here , how that parish priests do make a trade and business of sin , of preaching for hire , persecuting for tythe , promoting the popes pay , and parish posture , since they were sworn to endeavour the extirpation of all popery , looking every one for his gain from his quarter , which un-saints themselves , and states them still in unregeueracy , if t.ds. words be true ( as its sure enough they are ) when he sayes thus , indeed the saints do not sin , this is in the state of unregeneracy , whereof this is one character , they cannot cease from sin ; for howbeit , they have long since well nigh left off to do good , yet these and many more evils they abhor not , nor have so much as ceased from to this day . but to let pass that , observe secondly , how t.d. distinguishes the saints from the devil , and the unregenerate ones that are yet born of him , by this character ( which is the true one ) of ceasing , and not ceasing from sin : the devil ( quoth he ) and the unregenerate , they make a free trade and business of sin , and never cease to sin ( true enough ) but thus the saints sin not , but the course of sin , which the other keep , is broken off , so that there 's not this free trade between sin and their souls , as is among others , who do hoc agere , sin , and cease not from it , but the saints they cease from it . rep. caiphas-like , more truth then t.d. was well aware of when he told it , even so much , and no less ( and no more do we need from him ) then whereby he has as fully yielded us our question , as i have shewed he hath done all the rest we had to do with him about , excepting that of the infallibility of the gospel ministry affirmed by us , which yet he hath also yielded so far to towards the truth of , as will force him to give us all that too at last , sith he hath confessed the meer fallibility of their own , the ignorance of which i do not much marvel that he confesses , since he charges christ himself with such ignorance and fallibility , as whereby ( unawares to himself , and not knowing that he was such a one ) he ●●ose a devil to be his minister . see page . pamp. which devil yet ( say we ) to wit iudas , though he prov'd so at last by transgression , falling back from that true apostleship he once obtain'd , act. . was not known to be so , because ( saving t. ds. groapable darkness ) he was not so from the beginning , nor when christ chose him , but one of the twelve that had the spirit , as the other eleven had , matth. . . and when he fell into the deceit , and so became diabolos , alias , one that acts by deceit , and abode not in the truth , before ever there was any appearance of it to the disciples , christ was not so ignorant of it , but that he knew it as well as iudas did himself . but as to the questiou again , which is , whether in this life the saints may attain to such a state of freedome from sin , as not to sin , but to cease from it , and live without it ? t.d. sayes nay , we say yea : who shall be judge ? what witness have we to our assertion ? let that of god in all consciences judge , and let t.ds. witness be taken for us against himself ; yea , what need we further witness ? ye your selves , all people that can read , may read it under his own hand in his answer to us ; viz. that whereas the devil and his children sin , and whilst his cease not from it any more then their father who begets them to it ; the saints do not sin thus ; but by this character are to be known from the sinners , who cease not from it , viz. in that the saints cease from sin , which is indeed the very thing required to be ceased from , & therefore possible to be done by all them that have that sam● mind of christ , cor. . . phil. . . pet. . . even by the ●ame power whereby it was done in himself , for as much as christ hath suffered for us in the flesh , a●m your selves likewise with the same mind , for he that hath suffered in the flesh , hath ceased from s●n . thus t.d. suo se ingul●vit gla●●● , hath laid his cau●e a bleeding , and wounded it to death with his own wea yet least t.d. should begin to pick up his crums and fight us again wit● such foolish fragments as these , viz. that though the saints do sometimes cease from sin , are not always sinning yet they may sin , again and fall into soul enormities , ( which , what ere they are , our sinner like saints use to call but infirmities , when a professor commits them ) as david did through weaknesse , &c. rep. . this is not to the question , which ( as t.d. undertakes it against us ) is not whether those men call'd saints cannot sin any more , or not , after once they come upon a true account under that domination of saints ; but whether such a state , as to cease from sinning be attainable in this life yea or nay ? as to the other , we know well enough what to say of it , as occasion is , but as for this about which sub judice lis est , t.d. hath consented to us in it , and we shall take him at his word . and for as much as t.d. here so plainly asserts it that the saints do at least sometimes cease from sin , are not alwayes sinning , but have the course of it , which the wicked keep on in , broken off , this minds me of another contradiction and crosse whet which he gives to himselfe out hf his crosse bow ; for how is this consistent with his reply to g. w. p. . . of his . pamp. where to t. ds. absur'd positions viz. that a believers person with his works are accepted with god , though his works be not perfect , g. w. answering thus , viz. here he would have believers like the priests , who sin in the best of their performances ( as they confesse ) but i say the believers workes are wrought in god , and these works of god are perfect , as for our confession ( quoth t. d. ) 't is agreeable to scripture : there 's not a man on earth that doth good , and sinneth not , eccles. . . i.e. that sinneth not in doing good , inquity of holy things is spoken of , exod. . . duties which are holy for the matter are iniqui●y , for the manner of performance . rep. by which it seemes t.d. judges , there is such a continuall course of sinning in the saints , as that they cannot cease from it at all , for if while they are doing good , and performing duty they are sinning and doing iniquity , then how much more while they are doing materiall evill and iniquity it self , and so consequently cease not from it at all ; : which if they do not , then how do they cease as t.d. sayes they do ? here 's another stabb with his own dagge● , which t.d. gives himself , whose words are such swords to himself , and agree ●o well together by the eares among themselves that a man need but bring them out upon the open stage , where such as are minded to behold the battell may see them , falling out , and fencing against each other , and killing both their master and one another . and now i have that passage upon this occasion under hand , one word more to it a●o●e it passe ( for 't is not worth returning to it again ) if a believers works , which ( as g. w. truly said ) are wrought in god , and ( say i ) by god in them , & t. d. himselfe from isa. . . dares not deny it , any more then i do deny that , all ma●s ●on righteousnesse wrought of himselfe , before and out of faith in the light are dung , unclean things and filthy rags from isa. . . phil. . . if i say a believers wo●k● be not perfect , and his doing good be sin , and his duties iniquity , let me ask thee t.d. doth god , who works the believers works in them , work works that are not perfect , but imperfect ? and if thou say , what he works at first in believers is but in part of what he will do , from cor. . now we know in part , &c. rep. remember what i told thee above ; that in part is one thing , and imperfect is another , grace , holinesse , &c. in part is a perfect gift , ev●ry dram of it , as well as the highest degree of it , though 't is not so much in measure , as every spark of fire is perfect fire , though not so great a fire as the flame it comes from . but what do i talking of not p●rf●ct ? thou countest the best performances of the best saints evill , sin , iniquity : does god then , who works all his saints works in and for them ( absit blasphemia ) work evill , sin and ini quity ? thou sayst though a believers works are not perfect , but the best of them sin and iniquity , yet god accepts both believers and their works : hath iniquity then acceptance with god ? t is more then i can yet receive for truth , unlesse thou scratch and scrape out of the scripture such texts as tell us he hath no pleasure in it : i know he taketh pleasure in his saints , psal . but that shewes that such as you , who take pleasure in pleading for ini●u●●y are none of the saints ( what ere ye call your selves ) that he take , pleasure in . ye use to say to god in your prayers . o lord th●u art of purer eyes then to behold the least iniquity without abho●ring it , and the subiects of it , and such like , yet ( to go round again ) behold t.d. sayes believers works are sin iniquity , and yet god takes pleasure in , or accepts b●th the believer and his works . finally i know so much of such saints as your selves are isa. . to . that 't is iniquity even your sol●mn meetings , and appointed fasts and feasts , but god takes no pleasure in them , yea his s●ul hates , loathes and detests them . but he hath a people and a sort of saints ye know not , whose solemn meetings and sac●ifices are as incense before him , who are not sinners ( as ye confesse ye are ) in all they do , nor are their duties and doings of good , by his power , sin , evill , and iniquity : and these and their services ( while ye and all yours are a smoak , and stink in his nose ) are a sweet smelling savour to ●im , in all the good they do . . as to a mans falling into sin again , after he hath once ceased from it , i know no necessity of that ; which is the matter ye have to prove or else ye prove nothing at all to your own purpose , who hold that men must needs sin , while they are in the body and cannot possibly do otherwise ; but i know a necessity ( let men sin as often and as long as they will ) of ceasing to si● , and of leaving it off , before they leave the body , otherwise if they dy not to it , but but live in it till they dy , and dy in it ( as christ threatned the pharisees they should do ) 't were good for them had they never been born ; there being no place for repentance from or purgation from it after death and notwithstanding your pretended necessity of a●l mens sinning while they breath bodily here on earth , yet i know not only a necessity , as aforesaid , unless they mean ( the tree lying as it falls ( as ye use to preach ) and the eternall judgement finding all men as death leaves them ) to be remedilessly miserable for ever ; but a possibility also by the grace vouchsafed ( if themselves be not wanting in its improvement ) of ceasing finally from sinning , while in the body ; nor ( sith t. d. confesses the saints do cease from sin , and its continued cou●se is broken off in them ) can any man tell me why the●e should be less possibility of ceasing from sin , or more necessity of sinning to morrow then to day , or next day then to morrow , and from that time of a mans first abstaining from what evil the light in his conscience convinces him of , and condemns him for , and so successively onward to his lives end ? the same power that kept him to day , being as all-sufficiently able ( as he keeps to it ) though the temptation daily comes , to keep him from the transgression to morrow , and the next day , and even for ever : and who can tell me , why he that withstood one temptation to any transgression by the light and power of god , may not as well ( if in his will he turn not from the same power , which is alwayes nigh , and ready to keep him ) withstand another , and ●o another , and so all , so as to escape the transgression ? and why he that was not drunk , nor lewd , nor proud , nor injuri●us , nor w●cked , nor unrighteous , nor deceitful , nor abominable , nor disorderly to day , must needs be so another time ? his being subject to passions , pollutions , extravagancies , vanities , inordinancies of mind , is but an argument to evince how much the more need he hath at all times to stand upon his guard , and to put on the armour of the light , and keep the stricter watch to it , which who so does shall find the power of it in him prevailing more and more in the warfare , to the perfect overcoming , and the bringing f●rth of iudgement in him unto victory at the last , but who so does not , while he stands , take heed to his way by it ( as young men are bid , in order to the cleansing of their way , psa. . ) there is not i confess more necessity nor possibility of the others standing , then there is of this mans falling into mischief . howbeit , which way soever the man in medio is swayed , whether by the lustings of the flesh to covetousness , pride , envy , hatred , deceit , unrighteousness , lasciviousness , revenge , &c. to mind and walk after the flesh , or by the lustings of the spirit , to love , peace , purity , meekness , temperance , patience , &c. or which way soever that man is born and begotten , whether by the spirit of god from above , or the spirit of the devil from beneath , which in him lusteth unto evil , &c. i●m . . . and consequently whose child soever he is at any time of the twain , which is according to the prevalency , and predominancy , and perminency of this or that seed in him , viz. the seed or word of god , or that lying word or seed of the serpent , for his he is still to whom ●e obeyes , yet this is sure enough , as i said before , that he that abides in that which is of god sinneth not , ioh. . . and he that sinneth is gone from that , and born and begotten by the devil another way , even after his image , and he that is so , is of the devil , and a man of sin , and sinneth uncessantly as his father doth , who hath begot him into his likeness , and he that doth true righteousness is born of god to it , and he that 's born of god , and bears his image , which longer then any man doth , he is not of god , sinneth not , overcome● the world , keepeth himself that the wicked one toucheth h●m not , neither can he sin , while so , because he is born of god , and the seed of god remaineth , is head , permanent , prevalent , and preheminent in him ; and so which of these two sorts men are , matters not much to the point , sinners ( as such ) are sinners ever , and not saints , and saints are saints ever ( as such ) and not sinners , and each hath his reward from god as his work is , and he that 's holy is hely , and he that 's righteous is righteous , and he that 's unjust unjust still , and he that 's wicked is wicked still , and he that 's good is good , and not evil , and he that 's evil is evil , and not good , and the godly are they that are godly , and none else , and the ungodly are ungodly , and nothing else that 's opposite to it , for contraries cannot be denominated both of the same subject at the same time , and each of these as they are ( reapse ) in very deed , so are they in gods account , who accounts all men and things truly what they are , and not as man ( who wearies the lord with his words , saying , every one that do h evil is good in the sight of the lord , and god delighteth in him , and who is abuniration with the lord for s●d●ing , pr●v . . . mal. . . ) calling good evil , evil good , nor justifying the wicked , or condemning the righteous , but in his righteous judgement ( which evil men understand not , pro. . . ) as it is revealed in the light , which is the day thereof , rendring to all according to their deeds , secret as well as open , by christ iesus , according to the gospel paul preached , to the patient continues in well doing eternal life , to the contentious ones against the truth , that obey not it , but unrighteousness , indignation and wrath , tribulation and anguish , and this to every soul of man that doth evil , iew or gentile , rom. . and so ●he only that doth righteousness is righteous , and is of god , and accepted with him , and he that doth not righteousness , is not of god , nor he that hateth his brother , & hath no eternal life from god abiding in him , and be that sinneth is of the devil , and hereby the children of god are manifested , and the children of the devil , and each hath his own fathers portion , as he bears his image , nature , and proportion ; and as no righteous one is rejected or reprobated , so no unrighteous one is elected or accepted , but without respect of persons in every nation , he that fears god , and works righteousness in christ , the light , is accepted with him . and howbeit , the righteous turning from his righteousness to iniquity , may die , as the wicked turning from his wickedness to that which is lawful and right , may live ; and the same person may turn , and return , and turn again , and be in possibilities of life or death , according as he chuses , when both are ●et a●ore him , yet the wayes of god are equal , and his iudgements according to truth , and each man ha●h from him for ever as he doth ; and though the man that is now a sinner , may become a saint like david , and a sinner again , and by true repentance and purging with hysop a saint again yet the saint hath no part with the sinner in his lake , nor the sinner any share in the inheritance of the saints , which is in light , but each hath his own peculiar and proper reward , and the heart of the one knows his own heaviness , and the stranger intermeddles not with the others joy . and howbeit men may of unbelievers become believers , and believers in the light may by an evil heart of unbelief draw back to perdition , and depart from the living god , yet whether they believe or not , god abideth faithful , and cannot deny himself ; the believers portion that believes is the life , and the unbelievers part is the lake , : and though he that is now an unbeliever ( m●diante side ) may become a believer , and be saved , and he that now believes making shipwrack of his faith and good conscience ( as iudas , and others did ) may come to be damned , yet no believer is ever damned , nor is any unbeliever ever saved ; but the foundation of the lord , who knows his own evermore , stands ever sure , let men go which way they will , who owns none that name the name of christ , and depart not from iniquity , and owns all who ere they be that do , according to his everlasting and unchangeable decree , that stands thus stedfast without variation for ever , viz. that he that believes only shall be saved , and he that believes not shall be damned , mar. . . so then every saint ceases from sin ( as t.d. also saves ) and he that ceases not from it is no saint , or holy one , but a sinner , and the sinner cannot but sin , and do as his father the devil who begets him does , and he that 's a saint is born of god , and 〈◊〉 that 's ban of god doth not s●n , neither can , because so : and though there be among the sons of god degrees of growth in grace and faith , as to the measure of it ( as i said ) degrees among believers , for which t. d. sillily suppos'd i meant , that some of these have a mixture of sin with their grace , page . pamp. yet i deny any mixture of sin and grace together , which they are no more capable of then water and oyl ; but every believer and babe ( as so ) that is truly born of god , is perfect after christs own image , and in the divine nature , though not yet grown up into the measure and fulness of christs stature , and stands justified and accepted in the sight of god , and out of the condemnation , while out of the transgression ; and every unbeliever in the light is out of god and christ , who are light , & is in the darkness , and of the devil the prince of darkness , and is in the condemnation , because in the transgression , and one with that seed which is in the reprobation , and each seed , and the son that respectively is born of it , hath its own proper portion divided out unto it , and that which is of the spirit hath life together with it , and who is of the serpent and the fl●sh sows to it , and ( if not parted from it ) must perish together with it , and accordingly reap nothing but corruption . and as to all the rest of t. ds. r●plyes to our reasons , rendred as to this point at the dispute at sandwich , which replyes of his having no more force of reason in them , then there is strength in a rush , as to their reaching to hurt the truth , though i need not take any notice of them , in order to the consuting of t.d. he having so fairly consured himself already , as is above shewed , yet for the sakes of such as are honest hearted , and willing to see the truth i may run over to the rest , in such wise as follows . next then in answer to g. w. who told him truly how he wrested the scriptures to his own destruction ( for so by his emphases he does indeed ) t.d. sayes no● ●●r ( quoth he ) the new-birth agrees to all the saints , and if it excludes the being of sin ( here he goes off from the terms , for he should have said the sinning , acting , or assenting to sin ) in some , it must in all , for the seed remains in all as well as any . rep. i say so too ; and therefore ( for the reason is sufficiently rendred above ) it is that no saint that 's born of god ( as so ) doth sin or can ( while such ) if he do he is no saint , 't is the sinner , and not the saint that sins , which is begotten back by the devil , from that of god , into his own image , likeness , and nature , and by the serpent beguiled again , as paul was jealous the corinthians would be , and as the galatians were bewitched form the obedience of the truth . but now [ quoth t. d. ] least ye should be so mad as to assert all saints to be free from sin [ from sinning still he should say for sin may be dead in a man who sins not , nor lives in it ] pray read , joh : : : : if we say that we have no sin , we deceive our selves and this is spoken of such persons as of whom it is denyed that they commit sin , persons that had fellowship with the father and his son iesus christ , v : . rep. here he hath brought more fuel for that fire that is already burning his drossy divinations : the foolish woman can do no other in the day that 's approaching ; but pull down her own house with her own hands : and so doth folly befool the divine doers against the truth in these dayes into an utter undoing of themselves . t●is is spoken of such ( quoth he ) of whom it s said they commit not sin , so say i and of such of whom it s said they sin not . therefore t.d. may be sure he can fetch nothing hence in proof of it , that they do sin . it s said of such ( quoth he ) as had fellowship with the father and son , so say i , which proves them not now to be sinners , but must necessarily prove them ( and so indeed it does ) to be free from sin , and the deeds of darkness , not sinning , not walking in the darkess , or any deeds of it , but in the light , now at least , what ere the had done , in which light who walkes ( as it leades him , ) cannot sin any more then he can , that walkes not after the fl●sh , but after the spirit , and is led not by the flesh , but by the spirit , which light and spirit never led any yet into sin : so the very text and his own rea●on t. d. brings to conclude them sinners , excludes them utterly from being sinners now , for had they been so , they could not have had that fellowship with god , and christ , which t. d. said they now had : for god is light , in him is no darknesse at all , if we say we have fellowship with him , and walk in darknesse we ly and do not the truth ; but if we walk in the light as he is in the light , then have we fellowship , and the blood of christ cleanseth us from all sin : if we say we have no sin , we deceive our selves and the truth is not in us ; but if we confesse our sins he faithfull and just , to forgive us our sins , and cleanse us from all unrighteousness ; if we say we have not sinned we make him a lyar , &c. who but such night owls , as can see better by night then they can by day , can pick out such a thing as this from any one of these verses , viz. that iohn and the saints he here writes to , even of the least growth and lowest measure , however they had been so , did sin and were sinners at this pres●nt when he wrote it ? that they all had sin once and had sinned , its evident enough as i told t. d. then , for if we say we have not sinned ( saith he ) we make god a lyar : yea , had they never sinned they had needed neither that pardon nor purging and perfect cleansing from all sin all unrighteousness he there affirms ( they confessing their sins ) god was faithfull to give them , as well as to forgive all what they had committed , and which they then witnessed ( in praesenti ) but that at this time they were sinning and sinners not one title in all that text doth testifie . t. d. but yea must not think to ●ut us off●s● , ( quoth t. d. v. . 't is amartian ouk echomen and the other is ouk emartekamen , suppose the latter verse to be understood of the sins which praeceded the new birth , yet the former is expressely ( de presenti ) that we have ( not have had ) no sin . rep. who doubts of this but that e●h m●n , is the present tense ? we know iohn saves if we say that we have no sin , we deceive our selves . but what then my friend ? because he sayes it ( in presenti ) will it follow that they were sinners ( in presenti ? ) cu●us contrarium , &c. for as its most evident that the . v. is explanatory and expositive of the . to him that well heeds the . v. that comes between them ; so if he had not in one of them , given out his own mind and meaning ( not thine ) about the other ; yet , all that 's spoken [ in presenti ] is not [ as thou judgest ] spoken , [ de praesenti ] but not a little of the same nature with this is by the pen-men utter'd [ in praesenti ] in the present time and ten●e , that relates not [ ad praesens ] but [ ad praete●itum ] to the time past onely , as uttered concerning that : iam. . , . he sayes of the tongue it s an unruly evill , full of deadly poison , and [ in praesenti ] therewith blesse we god , therewith curse we men , made after gods image , alias saints : will any man be so simple as to conclude from hence that iames and the saints were now , at this time c●●sers of men or of saints that bare gods image , or that he wrote this of himself and them [ de praesenti ] as concerning this present time , wherein he writes it ? and not rather understand him as speaking of man as he is in the fall , unrenewed , in statu corrupto , immorigero , inconverso , of men yet unconverted to the truth ? which teacheth better fruits then such bitter f●i●s , as these , which yet [ for all your blessing god with the same mouth ] ye national ministers are found bringing forth at this day ; does he not speake it of men as they ly dead in trespasses and sins , and so consequently of himself , and the saints as [ de praeterito ] concerning the time past , who in times past had their conversation among such as paul sayes , eph : : : : tit : : ? so rom : ● : : paul sayes [ in praesenti ] i am carnall , s●ld under sin , i find a law in my members , carrying me captive into the law of sin , and much more then that in the present tense through that chapter : is any man but he , whose own wisdome is all foolishnesse for want of heeding the measure of the light , and gods wisdom● in his own heart , so foolish at to interpret paul as speaking of himself and his present state in those words , and so as to conclude that paul while he in the spirit of god wrote that epistle to the romans was carnall , s●ld under sin , enslaved to it , carried captive by it , led at the will of sin and satan , as he had once been before the light or law in the spirit and he came together ? at which time began the war , before which war , as he was in his contracted corrupt nature [ howere he thought not so till the light shew'd it him ] sin was alive in him and he dead in it , and a servant to it ; under which war also [ if he kept not to his watch ] he might loose ground sometimes , and gain it again , [ as he recover'd to his watch to the light and stood arrayed with the armour thereof ] in which continuing stedfast at last he obtained the victory , of which he speakes in the same place ch . . , , . so that at praesent he witnessed the law of the spirit of life in christ , the light , which warr'd in his mind against the law of his members , had now made him free from that law of sin and death which once he was so pester'd with that he cryed out of himselfe ' as wretched by reason of it , and witnessed also the son of god condemning sin so perfectly in his fl●sts by christs power in him , that the righteousnesse of the law was now fulfilled in himselfe , and other saints , and himselfe walking not after the flesh but after the spirit . i say can any think paul such a one , but such as sell themselves to folly ? not considering that paul speaks of three states he had experienced , one before the law or light , when he lay dead in sin , a under it while he warred against it , a in christ , wherein he stood freed from and in full dominion over it , ( but one of which he could possibly be in at once and at this time , and that was the d , having passed the other two ( as is evident , ch . . . hath made me free ) can any but benighted ones , that being sold under sin themselves , measure others by themselves , judge paul to be ( the premises cosidered ) under the power of sin and unfreed from it at this present and that he wrote of himself as wretched de presenti , because he wrote it in praesenti , thus and thus i am ? had he not then subjected himselfe below the saints he writes to , of whom he sayes chap. . that even they were made free from sin ? as well he , who were once the servants of it , and yielded their members up to obey it as he was and did ; of which persons yet t. d. in the name of t. rumsey simply says p. . . pamp. it cannot be meant simply that they were freed from sin , because paul , c. . . sayes ( not so much by way of condemnation ( say i ) as by way of caution to them ) that they should not judge and set a● naught one another : for why dost thou , there may be by way of memorandum and warning as well christs , how wilt thou ? and why beholdest thou , thou hypocrite ? to his own disciples math. . , . and as pauls other why d●st thou ? cor. . ● . which was not by way of downright charge and censure , but by way of prevention of such things as should not be : and hint how it ought to be among them ; but undoubtedly paul. rom . speakes as concerning how it was with him in times past when he lay under sin , and while he passed throw his warfare against it : being at present in the state of victory over it , which state of victory the scripture every where speaks of , as that the saints come to here , even to the overcoming of the world and the lust of it while they live in it , ioh. . , . rev. . rev. . . which our priests put far from themselvs and their people , as a state attainable onely in the world to come . yea oh the blindnesse that . of the rom. for want of heeding the . together with it , is made the common place of our blind guides and night-nursing fathers , from whence , upon the account of pauls out-cry , o wretched man that i am ! to nourish up their sinning saints from fainting under the burden of their necessary infirmityes , and from whence to conclude paul to have liv'd and dyed also without full freedom and perfect purging from his sins , and themselves much more to be under a necessity of sinning and living casually while they live . which yet follows no more then it did from that of iames above , from both which it will follow , as fully , as from that of iohn i am yet in hand with , and that is indeed not one jot at all : if we say we have no sin , &c. who that hath sinned can say he hath no sin ? for the sin he hath once committed , he hath , and the sins by which iohn and they had sinned of old , were theirs ( or else they needed no saviour nor purging ) as cursing men possibly might be sins of which iames , and them he writes to , could not say we have no such , for such and such were some of you , saith paul to the saints , cor. . but now ye are washed , sanctified , justified by the spirit , &c. so that if we confesse he is faithfull and just to forgive , and that 's not all ( though the priest stops there ) but to cleanse us from all unrighteousnesse , yea the blood of iesus his son doth ( in praesenti ) cleanse us from all sin : if then there be any filth remaining theres not a cleansing from all , but if ( as the text sayes it was to some ) it be from all , then there 's none at all remaining so as to be committed or acted to defilement ; though the saints may be said to have it in and about them so as to be tempted to it , while it is fully under them , yet temptation to it is not transgression : and the same may be said of cor. . . let us cleanse [ though paul himself was cleansed ] from all uncleannesse of flesh and spirit ( then which i know no more ) p●rfecting holinesse in the fear of god , who ( say i ) commands not impossibilities to the visible churches , in which sundry were , who were not clean ( as christs saints and true disciples are through the word he speakes to them ) nor cleansing but some waxing worse and worse , ioh. . , , , . phil. . , . much lesse doth christ command , no to his true ministers ( as fast as false ones hasten to that fruitlesse work , if there own doctrine were true ) in his name to command what is impossible ; yet even to the little children in the church does iohn write that they sin not , ioh. . . as well as of the young men in commendation , that they are strong and have overcome the wicked one , and yet there are fathers beyond all these . next to g. w. mentioning phil. . . as many as be perfect &c. in proof of perfection here , t. d. replyes well-nigh a whole page full of worth nothing , which is scarce worth noting on any other account then to shew how 't is worse then nothing to his own purpose : . he tells us , that 's spoken of grown christians that were perfect in comparison of babes . rep. that every babe in christ is perfect , as to the divine nature , which assents to no sin , much lesse acts it . i have shew'd above , but if all that are born of god were not perfect , yet that some are t. d. there confesses , and if but one it proves the possibility of it , which we plead against him and he pleads against . he tells us that [ perfect ] in scripture is put for [ upright ] and these are made synonimous , and of the same import . rep. true , perfect and upright are one , and both import no lesse then a man that sins not , eccles. . . adam in innocency was perfect , it 's said god made man upright : for while any are upright they are answerable to the law or light lent them to live by , which sin is the transgression of , and so no transgressours , and while they transgresse that law they are not perfect , nor upright but crooked and so accounted . whether it be iob himself , whom t. d. so much instances in and insists on , p. . . pamp. and p. . . pamp. or david himselfe , or any other : therefore while david stood in integrity and uprightnesse ( as mostly he did ) it preserved him , and god so accounted him and justified him , as an upright man , as he did iob. . . in the same case : but where he turn'd aside into the deceit & defilement , god held him not upright , but hypocriticall , false , filthy and sinfull : much lesse did he therein hold him guiltlesse and justifie , him ( as most ignorantly t. d. delivers it that he did p. . . pamp. ) even when he was guilty of adultery and murder ; in which juncture nevertheless t.d. sayes he was not in a condemned state , but in a justified estate : the scripture exempts him from justification , so far , that it vouchsafes him not that denomination of an upright man in that matter of vriab , but brands him with the name of a pittylesse , blood guilty man , a secret evill doer in the sight of the lord , a despiser of him , and his comandement , and a causer of gods enemies to blaspheme his name , psal. . sam. . , , , , . howbeit this one thing by the way is worth noting concerning t. d. ( not for any good that is in it or in t. d. as touching his demeanour in it ) that when he speaks of the saints good and duty that they do , he says that 's not perfect , but an unclean thing , dung and filthy rags : yea , that he calls sin and iniquity p. . . pamp. they sin ( quoth he ) in doing good : duties holy for the matter are iniquity for the manner ●f performance : but when the saints ( as in davids ca●e ) commit adultery and murder , he pronounces them blessed , as having no guile nor guilt in their spirit , but sincere ( which is the same with upright or perfect ) see p. . . pamp. david ( quoth he ) psal. . . pronounces the man blessed , which hath no guile in his spirit or sincere , which himselfe was at that time , though under the guilt of a great sin v. . which is by interpreters supposed to be the same sins for which psal . . was composed . rep. here 's doctrine of divinity with a witnesse ; when the saints do the best good , they sin , their holy things are all as an unclean thing , their righteousness is dung , filthy rags ( though t. d. holds also that paul had no righteousness which was not christs p. . . pamp. nor any righteousnesse , but what from christ he received ) their performing duty at least is no lesse then iniquity , but when they are under the guilt of such great sins as adultery and murder , oh blessed men they at that time have no guile in their spirits , are in sincerity or ( to speakin the diminutive phrase by which sometimes he lessens the foul faults and great sins of the saints ) at the worst but under infirmity : but be it this or be it that , greater or lesse , better or ●●●se , infirmity or iniquity , good or evill , duty or dung , righteousness or rags , holy or unclean , the upshot of all is this , the men are blessed men , what ere they do , they are never in a condemned , but ever in a justified estate ; and let their works be as they will , perfect or not perfect , good or duty , which they call unclean , dung , iniquity or filthy rags , their persons [ though thus sinning ] are ever saints , and believers , which together with their works , are accepted with god , who yet ( say i ) never accepted any such works , as are iniquity and sin , nor any persons , while they are the workers of them . and as to the remnant of t. d's , talk in answer to ● . ● . which is to this purpose , viz. that paul phil. . . denyes any such perfection , as is exclusive of sin till that last and bodily resurrection from the dead , which he looks not for in this life , which answer he is so in love with , that he hath it in his st pamp . p. . and also ore again in his d pamp. p. . rep. i shall answer that no other wise then out of t. d's . own mouth , who ( as i am , as to my self , credibly enough inform'd by a. p. ) in a meeting among many at sandwich , since those publike disputes we had since the edition of both his books , being 〈◊〉 the precise time wherein perfect purging is , answered when the soul , being passed out of the body , is in its passage between here and heaven . ( or to that purpose ) which , is but so , and no somer , must then be before the resurrection he talks of : and if he will not be convinced by his own words , that sin is excluded before the resurrection , much lesse is it likely he should believe any of mine . adding this however , viz. that if ye lye down in your graves with your bones full of sin , ye shall rise with them full of sorrow , was wont to be the priests argument to the people , to perswade them to a purging from all sin before they dye , because no purging to be lookt after death , much lesse so long of after , as at the resurrection . verbum sat sapienti . the next answer of t.d. is to the argument urged from psal. . , , . which he , who renders all we said as weakly , lamely and decrepidly as he possi●ly can for his own ends , repeats not half so much as by the halves , for i wisht him him to heed all the . verses which were then peraphras'd to him , and argued f●●m in such wise as followeth , viz. they that are undefiled in the way , are not defiled in the way ; they that walk in the law of the lord , do not transgresse it ; they that keep his testimonies , do not break them ; they that seek him with their whole heart , serve him not by the halves , not him and sin , but him alone and wholly ; they that done iniquity , do not sin ; they that walk in his way , do not walk besides it ; but there were some ( or else they could not be pronounced blessed , for the spirit blesses not such men as are not ) and such now may be ( for quod fieri potuir potest , what was then , is possible to be now ) who are undefiled in the way , walk in the law of the lord , that keep his testimonies , and seek him with their whole heart , who do no iniquity , and walk in his way : therefore 't is possible that the saints may be freed from sinning in this life : the summe of what t. d. replyes to all this is that the phrases are hyperbolicall : which is a little better at least , but how much i list not here to tell , then if t.d. had said , they are hypocriticall , or ( as his wonted replyes are , when he can find no better , as i have shewed above ) the meaning of the words cannot be as the letter of them doth import , the spirit meanes not as he sayes , the spirits meaning may be mistaken , when his words are taken in the most ordinary liter all sense , and so it would be , if undefiled and doing no iniquity , should be meant truely of being undefiled and doing none iniquity indeed p. . . pamp. it s meant of having respect to all gods commandements in respect of design and endeavour though falling short in accomplishment , v. . being explanatory of the other . rep. oh the impudency of this man ? what have we ( for all this he sayes against the plain literall sense of the spirits words ) whereby to assure us that the spirit means not as his own words import , but onely in that shambling sense which t. d. shuffles them into ? whose words must be taken ? t. d's . or davids , and the spirits ? the very literall sense of which is exclusive of all sin and defilement , and strictly expressive of doing no iniquity at all ? who that is born of god doth not see t. d. to be a strict pleader for loosenesse , and endeavourer to uphold the d●vills kingdom ? the spirit pronounces them blessed , and no more , in whose whose spirit there is no guilt , that do no iniquity , walk in in gods way , and keep his testimonies or commandements , t. d. will bring in a bastard brood into this blessednesse , that fa●l short in the accomplishment of this , that must be supposed at least to be ever respecting , designing , and endeavouring to do that businesse , which yet , notwithstanding all their respects , designes and endeavours , they are to believe they must never do , it being not possible to be done : they must alwayes dwell at the sign of the labour in vain , and be striving to wash the blak-more white and alwayes roling sysiphus's stone ; ever purifying never pure , ever mortifying their earthly members , fornication , uncleannesse , inordinate affection to the world , evill concupiscence , covetousnesse , idolatry , anger , wrath , lying , filthy communication , but never while they live obtain to witnesse these so mortifyed , as to be no more committed , least such an absurdity as this should follow , that the scripture [ which i confesse is found contradicting these meaning-makers on it ] be found contradictory to it self : for [ quoth t. d. p. . pamp. all the scriptures , which require repentance and mortification during this life , do deny the possibility of perfection : for they and it are incompatible . we are bid [ quoth he ] to mortify our earthly members , inordinate desires , motions and actions of corrupt * ●nature , that is , constantly endeavour to represse and subdue them . and there 's no reason but that gods commands should run in that old stile though we are not able to fulfill them : rep. of all the peices of proof against the possibility of perfection , that ever i heard , made by t. d. himself or any other , this is the most monstrously rediculous : draw this rude and crude matter into its own form and the force of it runs ihus . that , which god requires and commands us to be alwayes doing , and constantly endeavouring to do during this life , can never possibly be done or effected during this life : for if it be once fully done , effected and accomplished , then we can't be alwayes doing it , and so not obey what god requires . but god requires we should be alwayes mortifying , constantly endeavouring to represse and subdue the actions of corrupt nature during this life : therefore its impossible [ unlesse we be left uncapable of doing what god requires ] that we should in this life perfectly mortify and subdue them . in short , that , which must be ever in fieri while we live , can't be in facto esse till we dy , but we are ( in fieri ) to be alwayes purifying our selves while we live : therefore [ least there be no more work of that kind for us to do ] we may not lawfully or cannot possibly be pure till we ay , rep. this is even as hand●ome a shift , as if a debtor promising to owe & endeavour to pay his creditor l. should never pay it him , upon the pretence of an impossibility to perform his promise , if he do once pay the mony , i must ever owe him the mon●y , and stand engaged to endeavour to pay it , therefore [ unlesse i make my selfe uncapable of performing my promise , which i am alwayes mindfull of performing ] i must never actually pay it . but now as to t. d's . place , who would it seems willingly be alwayes in gods debt during his life , but never come out of it till after death , ever owing so much love as fulfills the law , but never practising it , so as to fulfill the law ▪ i must arrest him ( for all his shift ) and deny the minor of his argument : we are not required to be alwayes doing or endeavoring to suppre is and mortify sin so as never to bring the work to accomplishment in th ss life ; but once to effect it before we dye ; for as they are blamed that are over learning and never able to come to the knowledg of the truth ; so are they as little accepted , that are allwayes seeking to god dayly in pretence , as a nation that had a mind to do righteousness , asking of him the ordinances of iustice , seeming to take delight in approaching to god , that they might know his wayes , alwayes ( when the appointed time comes ) fasting and praying , humbling and afflicting their souls for a day , and hanging down their heads as a bullrush , thinking that to be a fast of the lords chusing , and the acceptable day of the lord , yet never loosing the bands of wickednesse , nor undoing the heavy burden , nor breaking every yoak , nor letting the oppressed seed of god in their own hearts , nor without neither , go free , ever and anon fasting for sin , never from it , ever reforming never reformed , ever running , never obtaining , alwayes making a shew of mortifying sin , never making any true effectuall mortification of it , ever warring , never overcoming , nor quenching the fiery darts of the wicked , nor dislodging the vain thoughts that are in them , nor coming to the end of the commandement , which is love from a pure heart , good conscience , and faith unfamed , allwayes beating the aire but never keeping under the body , nor bringing it into subjection to the power of truth , ever owing that love , which works no ill but fulfills the law , never performing any thing but that hatred which breaks the law , debtors alwayes to the spirit , but living after the flesh , and never by the spirit mortifying the deeds of the body that they may live to god , such sluggardly wishers and wouldens , and seekers and respecters , and pretenders , and striuers and runners , fighters , reformers , and mortifiers will be cast away at length for all their constant endeavours ; sith they do not so much as look to overtake what they run after , nor reach the high prize they professe to presse to in this life , which if they do not , themselves say also t is to late to effect and obtaine it after death . but qui cupit optatam cursu contingere metam multa , tulit , fecitque puer , sintavit & alsit . 't is good for a man to bear christs yoak in his youth , sith the soul of the sluggard desireth and hath nothing , but the soul of the diligent shall be made far . as for the residue of t. ds. reply to the argument above , as some of it has bin toucht on before , so what was not is scarce worth mentioning . he tells us v. . which talks of respect to all gods commands , explaines all the other . rep. t. d. sayes so but wher 's his proof ? beside if it be so , a true , real respect ( though such a slender one as he rests in does not ) stands in a due and true observation of them ; is he worthy to be respected as a true respecter of gods commandements that breaks them ? t.d. david excludes himself from the blessed estate , if undefiled and doing no iniquity be meant strictly here , sith his wish , v. . and other passages shew he was not free from sin , which surely david did not intend , because , psal. . . . he pronounces blessednesse to the man in whose spirit is no guile , who is sincere , as himself was at that time , though then under the guilt ( as is supposed by interpreters ) of his great sin of murder and adultery , for which psal. . was composed . rep. st . some of this dirty stuff i spoke to but a little before , the falsehood of which is evident , for whereas the scripture sayes , david was not upright in the matter of uriah , t.d. sayes , yea he was sincere and had no guile in his spirit when under the guilt of those great sins . d . as to the rest , what if david did exclude himself ? if he were under those great evills , he might well exclude himself from the blessednesse of sincere ones , till he came into the sense of gods love again & to repentance ; while he pronounced the undefiled ones blessed that did no such iniquity , he had reason to take the curse as his own portion to himself , and to cry out of himself , talaiporos anthroyos o wretched man that i am , more deservedly then paul , who ( though ( in zeal of god ) shedding blood ) yet was , 't is like , never such a deep adulterer , and deliberate murderer as david was in vriahs case : and as god said to israel hos : . : so might david say to himself , rejoyce not thou as other ( honest ) people , for thou a●t gone a who ●ing from thy god : and if that were his case ( as thou intimatest it was ) wherein he was so desperately defiled with filth and blind , he might well exclude himself from it , having no reason to take to himself the blessing of the undefiled : or whether he excluded himself or no from it , this i am sure ( for all thy foolish dreams about davids good condition , iustification , blessednesse and vprightness , whilst under the guilt of those sordid iniquities , that the scripture excludes him in that case so far from blessednesse , that it concludes him neither upright ( as thou simply dost ) not so much as a respecter of gods commands , which at least thou dorest , he was , even when he called that all abomination ( whiles thou judg him ( as indeed thou doest ) to have respect to gods commandments , that despises both god and him , for sam. . as much as thou smoothest over those abominable businesses the better to sooth thy self and some sinful saints like thy self , in your lusts and iniquities , as no more then saints infirmities , who have respect to all gods commandemets in respect of design and indeavour , though falling short in accomplishing : yet when nathan came to him well-nigh a year after he had lyen , in that dirty pickle in impenitency under the guilt of those gross impieties , he is so far from sowing pillows and daubing with such untempered morter , as thou dost , and from including him in the lists of sincerity , and owning him as one that had respect to all gods commands , that he convinces him of his wicked hypocrisies and condemns him , as one that had despised both god himself and his commandements . next t. d. as he relates p. . pamp . asking me whether i could produce one single example of a perfect saint in our sense , i told him yea , instancing in zachary and elizabeth , luke . . who were both righteous before god ( not before man onely ) but before god , walking in all the commandements of god ( not in some few or many , but all ) and ordinances of god blameless . to this ( accounting for more then that he then said though 't is one to as little purpose as the other ) first ( quoth he ) how appeares it that righteous before god is meant of a perfect inherent righteousnesse ? seeing a believers person with his works are accepted with god , though his works be not perfect : and in proof of this imperfect and crooked conceit of his own , he coats , heb. . . by faith abel offered a more excellent sacrifice then cain , by which he obtain'd witness that he was righteous , &c. and then adds that ( blameless ) is meant but comparatively , as phil. . . that ye may be blameless and harmless , the sons of god without rebuke , &c. in which same sense he sayes , luke . understands the phrase , to which he adds phil. . . where paul while a pharisee sayes he was blameles as touching the righteousness of the law , which he was onely externally conformable to and how zachariah was at the same time blamed , and also punish't for his unbelief . rep. in which piece of reply of his , st . something is true but nothing to t. d's . turn , but rather such as serves the truths turn against his , but d . something most abominable confused , false and fained , viz. that a believers person with his works are accepted with god , though his works be not perfect . for how ere t. d's . calls and counts men ( as he does dain'd ) saints and believers , &c. while their works are not perfect , and not only not perfect but abominable also , wicked , sinful , filthy , hypocritical , deceitful , gross iniquity , adultery , murther , and despite to the commands of god ( as davids acting in vriahs matter are called , psal. . . sam. . ) guiltless , &c. yet , no such imperfect , evil workers ( while so ) are any more deem'd upright by god , then david was , who was not vouchsafed the name of upright in that case . d . much lesse are such as are not perfect but evil works , such as are at best but unclean , dung , iniquity and filthy rags ( yet such and no better does t. d. call the duties , and , as to the manner , the best performances of himself , and his sort of saints ) of any acceptance at all ( as i have shewed well nigh newly above ) but rather an abhorrency in the sight of god , by what person soever acted : nor was davids adultery with bathsheba , and murder of vriah , nor himself , as acting it , nor any service he did , or sacrifice he offer'd while under the filth and blood-guiltnesse , and unrighteousnesse of it ( till he had throughly repented of it , was wasn't from it , and recovered out of it ) any more accepted as a sweet smelling savour with god , then the adultery of another man , then cains murder of righteous abel , and the persons and performances of all such unrighteous livers , whose very sacrifices , ( while they are such ) god hath no more respect to then he had to that of cain , whose seed they are , whose image and nature ( while they are doing so wickedly ) they all beare , and are found in ( david himself ( as so doing ) not excepted ) which sacrifice of cain , though else perhaps as costly as his brothers , had , together with his person , no such acceptance as righteous abel and his had , because at that time he was an evil doer , and then 't was the evil doer that did the good , sin lay at the door , and kept the sacrifice from acceptance , as it ever does where ere it lyes : for where and while there is a turning away , the care from the law ther 's the wicked one , there the person and the performance are both a stink before the lord , yea the very prayers of the wicked are abominable . and in bringing abel for an instance of a believers person and his works being accepted with god , though his works be not perfect , he quite cuts the throat of his own cause ; for both abel and his works were true and perfect , and righteous before god ; and so they are both cal'd , mat. . . heb. . . iohn . . while cain and his works are both call'd evil and of the devil : and therefore had abel and his works acceptance , when cain and his had none , because he was righteous , not so esteemed of god while he was not so indeed ( as t. d. deems ) who because he so does , deems that god ( as himself ) deems those and theirs to be good and righteous , which in themselves ( inhaesive ) are nothing lesse , but ( saving that contrary account t. d. supposes god to have thereof ) really rather evill and unrighteous : for had cain bin righteous and done well in other matters he had done well in offering , and bin accepted ; if thou do well shalt thou not be accepted ? but because he did bonum and not bene , being an evil doer and a sinner , when abel being righteous did both , and was accepted , yet he was not accepted in his material doing that , which ( else ) was good : in which case israels most solemn assemblies were iniquity ( as those of saints and believers are not , notwithstanding t. ds. say so ) because their hands were defil'd with blood , and their fingers with moral iniquity : so by faith , which purified abels heart and wrought by love and overcame the world in him , and the lust thereof , and which was both made and proved to be true and perfect by his works , did abel , and so all true saints and believers also do , come to offer a more excellent and acceptable sacrifice then that of cain , and his wicked race , by which they obtain ( not mans but ) gods own testimony that they are righteous , as zachariah , and elizabeth both did , in the place and case now in hand : which testimony of god , who counts no things to be other wise then they really and truly are , is true , and will stand against all t. d's . tattl● to the contrary , and will be believed before his , by every true believer , though many such nominal believers as himself is , will believe no more of what god himself declares plainly , by such holy ones as wrote the scripture , then what they list , and that 's little or nothing at all of that , that leaves them no license at all to please the lust : and therefore , the righteousnes , blamelesness , innocency , harmlesness of the sons of god themselves , phil. . . that are found in all good conscience towards both , and without rebuke before both god and men , whose blameless and righteous works , which are from god himself , and not of themselves , isa. . . . . deeper dye then that of pauls own exact pharisaical ; traditional , external conformity to the meer outward letter , or law of a carnal commandement in matter of external ordinance ( which yet to the full was as good as any of that religion or righteousness of our morally unrighteous , pharisaical christians , now gloryed in by our literallists & legallists ) must be made no other then parralel'd with that of man , phil. . . which had no more also then the testimony of man , as to that denomination of blamlesness & righteousnesse , yet was in truth ( because lying in outward observation of fleshly ceremony , more than inward righteousness and morality ) no more worth than meer dung with god , and as to justification of any one in his sight that doted on it . as to that of zachariah's being guilty of acting sin at that very time in which be as said to be righteous , for which he was punished with dumnes , whereupon i told him then that in elizabeth their was no fault found however , and so one instance might stop his mouth , who call'd for an instance of one single person only , but [ quoth he ] shee might be no more free from sin , then he , though there 's no mention of any sin of hers . rep. i prov'd her to be blameless and righteous from the text it self , it lyes in him to assign some sin of hers , if shee had any , but that he cannot do , but confesses there 's no mention of any : so that instance stands ore his head still : and whereas , at the taile of his double tale about his and her sins he tells another to make them three , viz. that my mouth was stopt , and i was silenced & had nothing to reply , ( because i thought fit to be silent when enough was said ) t. d. doth but mistake himself , for 't was his own mouth that was then stopt , insomuch that i saw and heard some of those that stood about him take notice of him as meerly cavelling in that matter : but he that chuses to outword them he cavills with , though to little purpose , must chuse to have the last word if he can . but whereas t. d. sayes thus , but in a word to put it out of doubt , zachariah was at that time found guilty of the sin of unbelief , and was punisht for it , i say it s more then he will ever prove while he lives that he was so at all , much lesse in the very time of which its said that he was righteous . for st . that time was before the time of his not-believing , of which its said , that in it he was righteous . but d . in a word to put it out of doubt , and bring both instances clear ore his head again , ther 's no such thing mentioned in the least of zachariahs sinning , much lesse of being punisht for his sin , for howbeit he did not so fully at first , as he did after , believe the angells news of his having a son ( it being very unlikely sith his wife and he both were very old ) and thereupon desired honestly a sign by which he might the more assuredly know and give credit to it , as others [ without sin ] desired in like cases the like before him , * yet is he neither blamed , nor threatned , nor lesse puisht ( as t. d. dreams ) with dumbnesse for not believing till he had a sign , as for a sin : but his dumbnesse was given as an answer of his desire of a sign , and as a sign of the certainty of the thing , that he might the more undoubtedly believe it , eccle. . . . . whereby shall i know this glad tidings ( quoth zachariah ) for we are old . behold [ quoth the angel ] thou shalt be dumb till the day that these things shall be performed since thou believest not my words , which shall be fulfilled in their season . there remains one scripture more that t. d. urged against perfection , which he desired my answer to , at the propounding of which he sayes , i was silenced , and yet brings me in himself as answering to it in the very next words that i spake at all , whereby men may see how he makes a matter of nothing of it , to utter lies and to prove them to be lyes as soon as he has done . the text is eccles. . . there is not a just man upon earth that doth good and sinneth not , the sum of my answer , which t. d. renders as raggedly as he can , so that men may not tell what to make of it , was this , viz. there are no dwellers upon earth that sin not , but there are some that have a bodily abode upon earth , whose dwelling is not on earth , but in heaven , whose conversation or ( politeuma ) or habitation , mil. . . cheif businesse , being , abode and dwelling is in heaven , whom all the inhabitants of the earth or earthly minded men , on all whom the day of the lord comes as a snare , luke . viz. the beast and his worshippers , who are said to dwell on earth , rev. . . do blaspheme , rev. , . and these people of god in heaven , who also are heaven , where god himself dwells , isa. . isa . rev. . . . . sin not , as all they do ( wo to them therefore ) that are inhabitants of the earth , for the devil is cast out of heaven , and hath no place there , and is come down to the other in great wrath : but they that are in heaven are on mount-sion , with the lamb redeemed from the earth , and in their mouth is found no guile , for as the lamb himself , who is their saviour , is unspotted , doing no evill , so are they without fault before the throne of god , rev. . . . . which answer of mine which was also g.ws. & is mine here again to t.d. so far was i then from using it as a meer evasion , as t. d. sayes he verily believes i then did in mine own iudgment and intention : but t. d. not well knowing what to reply to it , replyes nothing at all to it in his rejoinder ; but p. . . pamp . calls it absurd and not worth a further reply then what he gives , p : . pamp . which is so jejune that i can find nothing in it but skin and bone : he tells us the iust man being in heaven in our sense , excludes not his local being here on earth . rep. nor do we say it does , though he there thinks we do think so ; but what of this ? we deny , not his bodily and local abode here on earth , & t.d. who can do no other then give us all our questions , cannot , and therefore doth nor deny but confesse it , that he hath a present being also in heaven , and that 's as much as we need wish him to yeild to , as in order to the yeilding us our cause ; and if he should deny a true real being of the sons of god in heaven , while they are locally and bodily here on earth , we should force him to confesse it from iohn . . where it s said of the son of man ( mark ) in praesenti , that he is in heaven , while yet he stood bodily on the earth : he tells us we run very low in this answer , but alas it is too high for him , who is on earth , with all his reason to reach any sound reply to ; as ( in us ) seems to be ( without us ) and ( inward ) to be ( outward ) to him who lives not in heaven within , but on earth without ; so , to him that stands ( as t.d. doth ) on his head , with his heals upwards , and his head down towards the earth , where his feet and heels onely should be , as downward seems to be upward , so does upward to be downward : but so it seems to the great whore that rides the beast , or that woman that 's cloathed in scarlet , and for a time tramples the holy city under feet , rev. . . . . yet things seem no otherwise then they are to the woman cloathed with the sun , who hath her head crowned with the starrs , and all fading sublunary glory , and the moon it self under her feet , rev. . . as to t. ds. trifling reply to what r : h. urg'd from heb , : . where paul sayes , the saints were come to mount sion the city of the living god , the new ierusalem ( into which let t.d. esolve himself , whether any uncleannesse or defilement can enter , from rev . . ) and to myriards of angels , and to the general assembly and church of the st being , whose names are written in heaven . and to god , and to iesus , and to the spirits of just men perfected * ( with all whom let t. d. who sayes that place imparts not the perfection of any man on earth , resolve himself whether one dram of darkness or uncleanness can enter into communion , if . cor. . . . . . . and iohn . . . . . . be true , much more so as to make one body with them , as t.d. divines it doth ) as to , that i say , so far as it is fit to be replyed to , g.w. hath done it , whose reply stands unshaken by that feminine tempest or stood of impertinent words , wherewith t.d. who sayes much to as litle purpose , would seem to patch up a return , and what g : w : said in short the body of christ is perfect , may be ventured among wise men to stand as it does , against t : d's little less then blasphemous counter-position , that the body of christ is not perfect : for his particle ( yet ) whereby he mends that matter , saying , not ( yet ) perfect , because some that belong to it are yet unborn ; this helps him not a tittle , who holds with i : o. the scripture to have bin of old from moses a perfect rule , and canon ( i speak ad h●minem their own sense not mine ) whilst many books of it were yet not written , and so i shall vouchsafe it no more then so , and the rather because that reply of t : d : to g : w : was replyed to some months since , but that it was neglected to be printed by such as were intrusted to see it done , and whether it yet may or may not be printed before this of mine be out i cannot say . unspeakably much more might be said both in disproof of such toyes as our d●vines talk against it , by and in proof of that possibility of a perfect living without sin before death , then i shall here take notice of ; yet . or , things that are upon me i am free to give some small bint of : t : d : tells us , god will have us excercis'd in that work of mortifying sin while we live , & therefore , lest we should have no more worke to do nor worlds to conquer , there must be no full conquest over the world , nor perfect mortification of the lust of it till we be dead , so some tell us , gods children would be proud , if he should not keep them down , corruption as well as affliction being a most effectual means to make ashamed , god will leave ( as he did once caananites to excerise the israelites , and he as thorns in their sides ) some sins in his saints unsubdued as long as they love , to humble and prove them and shew them what is in their hearts , and such like . rep. but i trow where would pride it self be , which is none of the least sins if the saints come by the blood and power of christs light and grace , which only humbles , to be fully freed and cleansed from all sin and uncleannesse of flesh and spirit , and to perfect holiness in the fear of god ? will not pride it self then be brought down , as well as other sins , and humility alone be exalted ? some tells us from kings : . the man lives not that sins not . rep : we say that ther 's no man that lives , who hath not sinned , and as iohn sayes , he is a lyar that sayes otherwise of himself , but because men have sinned and have sin must they never be purg'd ? is there a necessity that they who now have it , and now sin must needs have it , and must needs sin till they dye ? and if they may cease from sinning ( as our divines also , but that they forget themselves , tell us they may , yea must or dye for ever , every tree lying for ever as it falls , and there being no purgatory after death ) i say if they may and must before they dye , is it then unpossible that they should ? and if they may ne'r so little before they dye , ( suppose a day , a week , a year ) leave sinning , may they not by the same power and light live without it , : : or many years before ? but that , as the plain truth is ) they are in love with it , and loath to part with it till it parts with them , and to take heed to that light and grace that is given of the lord to lead them out of it , to repentance from it , and to learn them to deny it , and to live without it , godly , righteously , and soberly in this present world , in which neglect the hands of the evil doer are strengthned by our dirty dawbers , who tell them they must leave sin , all sin , little sins , and yet ( to go round again ) that they cannot possible leave all while they live ; so strengthening the hands of the wicked that he can't return from his wickedness , by such pleasing sing-songs and lullabies as these , not a just man uppon earth that does good and sins not , and the saints have their infirmityes , and david himself was overtaken with adultery and murder , and yet stood accepted with god , and was , even when under the guilt of those gross sins , not in a condemned , but in a justified estate , and prov : . who can say i have made my heart clean ? and such like : not heeding that though none can ( nor do we assert any such thing that we have any sufficiency of our selves to good ) yet alsufficiency is in god and his grace is sufficient , so that god can , if men look to him in his light , make clean the heart , and man a young man in whom youthful lusts are strong , by the power of god and , taking heed to his way by his word in his heart , may cleanse his way , and so some do , though they are but few , nor does ( who can say i am clean from mine iniquity ? not one ) exclude all from cleannesse , implying only ( as often such interogations do ) no otherwise then thus viz : that few can , for though an interogation affirmative of this sort ( for the most part ) concludes negatively , yet not alwayes universally so , but some are included in the affirmative both according to the poets and the prophets : quis legit haec ? per : so isa. : who believeth our report ? vel duo vel neme , few or none : adde to this these considerations in proof thereof : if sin be christs enemy in his saints , which none denyes , then must it be , destroy'd in them before , not after death , for the last enemy that is to be destroyed is death . but the st . is true , therefore this latter . again the perfecting of the saints is the very end of christs ministry to the church-ward eph. . , , . which end it must accomplish in this life or not at all , for it ceases in that to come , as scripture and prophecy and all such mediums do ( as i.o. confesses ) being accommodated presenti huic statui , to this present world onely ex. . s. . and if it be not here attainable , and freedom from sin not possible to be accomplished , then ye make christs ministry as imperfect as your own ( absit blasphemia ) the perfection of every thing consisting in nulla alia re [ quoth i.o. ex. . s. . ] no other thing then in its sufficiency to attain its end : and in every discipline that ( quoth he ) is to be counted imperfect , which sinem propositum suum assequi potis non est , is not of force to effect its propounded end . yea not onely the act of regeneration , which is all ye count as attainable here , but also the . act or consummation and perfection of it is attainable , and is the very end of the true spirituall ministry of christ , which is his gift and infallible , for the text runs so concerning that ministryes continuance here , which ceases after death , till we all come into the unity of the faith and knowledge of the son of god i. e. to know him all alike , and to one perfect man , even to the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of christ : so that all that are truly born from above of water and the spirit ( not bastards , born of flesh into a talk of the new birth that yet know it not , ) into the divine nature of christ , may come up into the measure of his stature , to be as he is , in whom is no sin , to walk as he walk'd in this world , ioh. . . ioh. . . or else the end of the ministry is frustrated : and to say that god appoints a means to an end , no way attainable . i.o. himself detests that ( as his principles are ) and so do all that hold that undenyable maxime , that deus nil facit frustra . again t is the end of the scripture ( quoth i. o ) persicere omniae , to perfect all things pertaining to our salvation : therefore perfect salvation from sin is here attainable , otherwise the scripture is not perfect ( as i. o. sayes it is ) to its own end , sith it ceases in the world to come ( as he confesses also ) therefore though he contradict himselfe so as to say the scripture obtains not its end here , yet if his saying that it does obtain its end , and its end is saving the soul , be true this ( ad hominem ) is an argument out of his own mouth sufficient to evince , to the stoppoing of it , a possibility of being saved from sin in this life . again , they , that walk not after the flesh , and fulfill not the lusts of it , sin not , for sin is the fruit and effect of the lust , which must conceive , be consented and yielded to , before sin can be brought forth iam. . . . a man must be led away of his own lust before he sins . but there be some that walk not after the flesh , that fulfil not the lust of it . yea they that are in christ jesus to whom is no condemnation ( which condemnation by the law is where ever sin is , which is the transgression of the law : ) rom. . . yea more expressely they that are in christ , are new creatures , the old things , the old man and his deeds , cor. . rom. . eph. . which is renewed after the image of him , who created him in righteousness and holyness of truth , not a meer imputed one , a meer computed one , an imaginary one , a sound of words , a talk , not a shadowy one , not a shew of holinesse where it is not substantially , inherently indeed , and in truth , but a sinning under the name of saints : yea more expressely yet , from rom. . if christ be in in you the body is dead because of sin , and rom. . how shall we that are dead to sin , live any longer therein , such there are in whom christ is , and these are dead to sin , and those that are dead to it , live not in it , it is mortified in such in facto esse , not in fieri only i.e. mortifying ever as long as we live , yet never dead till they be dead , as our dead divines deliver : ye most expressely of all gal. . they that are christs ( and some are his though the pleaders for sin and the devils dwelling in them till they dy are none of his ) have ( in praeterito ) crucified the flesh , not with the actions of it onely , but also with the affections and lusts thereof : and though there is a time of dayly dying ( i dyday●y saith paul , cor. . ( in the light , which is the crosse of christ to the ca●nailm●nd ) to the world and the lust of it , which passeth away before him that doth the will of god , and abideth eve● : yet there is a time of being crucified to the world with christ and the world unto such , which paul , witnessed cor. . and howbeit . yeares before that , paul hast a thorn in the flesh , a messenger of satan to buffet him , least through many revelations he should be exalted above measure , whence the ministers of the night and darknesse argue ( a ma●●i ad m●nus ) that paul sinned while he liv'd , much more must others , not heeding that his thorn was but a temptation to prevent his transgression and therefore no● a transgression of itself ( for christ was tempted , yet never sinned ) and beside though it lay haunting and attempting him , and was not soon removed , yet on his prayer that grace was given , which was sufficient to support him under it . so that he fell not by it , yet if it had proved a transgression , 't would not have proved him that sine'd . yeares ago to have been a sinner now , much lesse to have sinned so long as he lived , and so to have been [ an as for example ] for all seeming saints to argue from , that they may safely and must unavoidably continue sinning to their dying day . therefore salvation from sin is attainable in this life : yea this very conclusion here inferr'd , is in plain termes asserted by peter of the saints , pet. . of whom he sayes , that they received the end of their faith , the salvation of their souls , which salvation ( i say till ) is from the sin ( which slayes and separates it from god ) or else from nothing . moreover such as walke after the spirit , and in the light , and are led thereby , these sin not , nor do the deeds of darknesse , which are sin for the light and spirit lead none into sin : but there be such as walk in the light , in the day , in which if a man walk , saith john , he stumbles not , ioh. much lesse falls● : there be some that walk not after the flesh but after the spirit , and are led by the spirit , and those that are led by it are not under the law [ the lash of which they would be under , as all sinners are , if they transgressed it ] but under grace . and these are the sons of god , those that are born of god , whom the world knowes not ioh. , , . for they are his hidden ones , psal. . against whom they take crafty councel , as against an impure generation , though they purify themselves even as christ himselfe is pure , whilst such as know neither the sons of god , nor whose sons themselves are while they sin , are that generation that 's pure in their own eyes , though not yet washed from their filthiness , nor meaning to be so here . who ever walkes after the spirit , and no more after the flesh and lusts of it [ at it seems by that very text rom. . some do , to whom alone there 's no condemnation because no sin , for they are in christ & so out of the transgression , in the light , out of the darknesse , in but one of which a man can be at one time ] such sin not , who ever they be , unless t.d. i.o. and the whole gang of blind guides , who tell people that none but that person that christ appeared in a ierusalem , ever were , shall or can be fu●ly freed from sinning in this world , will [ being ●ore shooes , in that sink of sottishness ] run ore boots too , so as to say the light and spirit leads such , as follow and walk after it , into lust and sin therefore there are some that live without sinning . and this is one infallible argument from the very letter it self ( if it were not become now as a book sealed to the learned lookers into it that freedom from sin was attainable by the power of christs light , and the grace of god ( which alone even we say is sufficient to that end ) and was attained by paul and others then , and therefore may be now , even in this life , in that pan● declares concerning law of the spirit of life which is in christ iesus ( the head from whence , as the holy ointment , it runs down to the skirts of the garment , and as the unction ioh. . abides in his body teaching all things , ) it had made him free from the law of sin and death , of which law of sin and death he relates in that . chapter that he was once wretched by reason of its carrying him captive to it self , of its motions of sin working in him , and bringing forth fruit in him unto death , of its warring in his members against the light or law of god in his mind , by which he had the knowledge of sin in the very lust of it , as that he should not covet nor lust to envy , anger , uncleanness , &c. which the scribes and pharises mat. . and paul himself ( while a pharisee ) looking into the l●tter without only [ as he did from a child ] knew not till he turn'd to the light within and came to the law in the spirit , till he and it came to look each other in the face ; from which time , and not from his looking into the letter he saw the law in the spirituality , holinesse , righteousness and goodnesse 〈◊〉 , and [ for all his former formality and strict pretence to unrighteousness & profession of a letter ad extra ] his own meer naughtinesse and carnality , as that of one that was still sold under sin and a committer of it , in the sight of god from whose wrath that old drosty , dunghilly righteousnesse of his own phil. . which was not christs [ as t. d. blasphemously belyes it to be , p. . . pamp. ] could not deliver him , till he witness'd himselfe cloth'd with another , even that righteousness which is of god by faith in christ , not imputed onely , but imparted also to the true sanctification , as well as justification of every one that believeth , which passages nevertheless of that th chap. to the romans and that . of his d . ep. to the corinthians : our senseless seers have made , among others , one of their main common places from whence to prove the very contrary , even that there is no such freedom from sin , while in the body ; but that of necessity , it must be acted by the saints themselves , while they breath upon this outward earth : for [ say they ] if paul complained of a body of sin and death while he liv'd , and how he was sold under sin , and carryed captive to the law of it , and of the law of sin wa●ring in his members against the law in his mind , so that he could not do the good he should , but when he would do good , evill was present with him , and also of a thorne in his flesh , a messenger of satan to buffet him [ as he does cor. , , . &c. ] and all this after his conversion to his dying day : then much lesse can any other saints expect to be set so free from sin , by what power soever in this life , as to live and not sin , and such like ! but paul did so , therefore what man can do otherwise ? who can ever live and not sin ? thus they argue against qua. as a damnable sort of hereticks , that deliver a doctrine of devils , because they hold out , as attainable , that hellish thing , as they count it , call'd holiness , and such freedom from sin in this life , so as not to commit iniquity any more ; not considering all this while that paul in those terms speakes what he once was , [ yea even after his conversion to the light ] till sin was wholly subdued , by the light condemning it in his flesh and bringing forth in him judgement over it into victory , and not of what he was at the writing thereof , in which time he sayes the law of the spirit had made him free from that law of sin : not yet heeding at all that the thorn in the flesh was not a transgression , but a temptation , with which god exercised him , that he might shew the sufficiency of his own grace to support and keep him from transgression , even from that sin of being exalted above measure , and that no lesse then . years before he wrote this , and not just then when , or while he wrote it , much lesse a transgression that remain'd unmortified in him till his dying day . one argument more i shall urge from i : o's : own book thus viz : if perfect salvation from sin be the proper end of the scripture , and it be perfect to that its end , and does perfect it , and yet does what it does in this present world [ or nowhere ] to which it is accomodated only , and ceases to do ought into the world to come , then that perfect salvation must be wrought out by it , or here , or no where at all : but all the former are asserted abundantly ore and ore again as truth , by i : o : himself , ex : : : : : therefore the conclusion is consequently true that its either here or no where : again they all say in opposition to the pope , ther 's no purgatory in the world to come , therefore it must be here or no where , unlesse they know any other world between this present world & that which is to come , which middle world though i have heard some talk of a world in the moon , i am not yet acquainted with . there be some therefore that sin not , in whom the law is not transgrest , but sin condemn'd and judged in their flesh , so that the righteousnes of the law by christs power is fulfild in them , and they walk not after the the flesh but after the spirit , which is the end of gods sending his son in the likenesse of sinful flesh , and of his sending out his light into mens hearts , even that law of the spirit of life which is in himself , viz : to make men free from that law of sin and death , which sometimes they obeyed to condemnation , and to condemn sin in the flesh , and out of it also by his iudgment brought forth into victory over it , that his righteousness might be revealed , and the righteousness of the law , which he fulfilled in himself , might be [ by him ] fulfilled [ in us ] also : many more passages truly there are in t : d's : and i : o's : books [ besides these many that have bin spoken to ] some of which are worth no more [ being but confusion ] then confutation , and some of which also are not worth so much , and therefore i shall draw to an end [ making many books and much writing being wearisom ] but by these men maybe admonished what a meer fallible kind of guidance they must expect from their university admired leaders , while they hate the light of god in their own hearts , and hang only on their lying lips for their learning the plainsoul-saving truth of christ , finis . an additionall appendix to the book entituled rusticus ad academicos ; or , the country correcting the clergy . wherein in somewhat a smaller compasse , and closer circumference then that of the volume it alludes to , some few of those rabbinical riddles , which yet are obvious enough in the other , to any observant reader , are rendred more conspicuous to the observation of all ; to the end that all that have eyes may see , and a heart may understand , how the scribes and school-men are unskild in the scriptures , how the sun is set upon the seers , how it's night to the diviners that they cannot divine ; how the vision of all is become unto them as a book sealed ; how blindnesse has befallen the babel-builders ; how the race of the ( once reverenced and renowned ) rabbies is wrap't up in rounds , in their ( so much respected ) writings against the light ; how the doctors are doting on a divinity of their own ; the teachers and text-men tangled in their own talkings about their text , and the priests pull'd down by themselves in their own prate pretensively for i.e. pro scripturis but in very deed against both the very text , and the very truth it talks on ; how among the gameliels in general , but more particularly among those four choice ones t. danson , i. owen , r. baxter , i. tombs , ( who , as representatives of the rest , whose sense they speak , and in whose behalfe they reason , are reckoned with in the bigger book abovesaid ) ( ishmael-like every mans hand is against every man , and each mans hand against himselfe , r.b.i.t. sometimes confuting i. o and t.d. and these foure sometimes confounding and contradicting each man himself ; and in a word dancing the rounds together in the dark , tracing too and fro , crossing and capering up & down , in & out , and sometimes round about , in the wood of their own wonted wisdom , in the clouds of their self-created confusion about sundry doctrines , they concurre in together ( by the ears ) against the quakers . contradictionibus scatet spiritus enthusiasticus ; vnusquisque asslatum habet , ita faedè et apertè inter se aspiritu immundo committuntur ut vix duo eorum in eadem doctrinâ conveniant ; sed mirè digladiantes adversas et contrarias sententias quotidie venditant , etiam in nomine dei se aliquotiès mutuò devovent et execrantur , itaque ; nihil certi ab i● expectare licet . the enthusiastical spirit flows with contradictions ; so fowlly & apparently are they whifled by the evil spirit among themselves , that scarce two of them can agree in one doctrine , but clashing wonderfully , they daily vent opposite and contrary opinions , & often they even curse one another in the name of god , therefore there 's nothing certain to be expected from them ; quoth iohn owen , exer : . sect : . quid rides ( o sacerdos ? de te fabula narratur . in homine domini , ac in nomine domini ( saith the proverb ) incipit omne malum . by s. fisher. london , printed for robert wilson , . an additionall appendix , & c - that flood of follies and absurdities , that ( loud of confusions and self - contradictions , which diffuses and shatters it self up and down by plats in sundry showers thorowout the sun dry pages of these four mens books , every eye that reads them ( as they lye at a distance in theirs , and in mine , by which theirs is more largely answered ) may possibly not set sight on them easily : therefore i shall cull some few of them only out ( for the whole number passes my skill to cast account of ) and clap them a little closer together ; not so much to shame them as to honour the truth , which they would shame ; that they may be the more ready to be read , and apparent to the view of every ordinary reader ; that any ( save such as seeing will not see ) may see the sword of the lord already laid on the arm and right-eye of the idol-shepheard ; to the drying up of the one and the darkning of the other ; for perverting the right way of the lord , so that he not only seeth not the sun of righteousnesse , which he loves not that it should shine ( as elimas of old did not , for his seeking to turn away the governor from hearing the faith , acts . , , . ) nor yet the moon of so much as common sense and reason , but groaps about with him in the mist of his own muddy mind , so as to need some to lead him by the hand , and to shew him ( in answer to his question 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) whereabouts he is , and what a shaking , sandy ground he stands on . self-contradictions , confusions , and rounds about iustification . . as to the doctrine of iustification by christ and his righteousnesse within us . . they tell us one while , that the . question debated on at sandwich , and held in the affirmative by the quakers , was stated in these terms . whether [ our ] good works are the meritorious cause of our iustification ? which is a lye with a witness , witnesse t.d. who tells it , p. . of his first pamphlet . otherwhiles ( to go round again ) leaving out the term [ our ] which quite alters the state of the question , and makes it altogether another , this truth is told us ; viz : that the terms of the . question were , whether good works be the meritorious cause of our iustification ? which was expressely affirmed by the qua : witnesse hen : oxenden iohn boys esquires ; mr. nath : barry , mr. thomas seyliard , mr. char ; nicolls ministers , a few ( of very many ) witnesses ( quoth t.d. in his epist : to the reader ) of the terms of the questions agreed to by the qua : who will free me ( and how well they free him let all the world judge ) from the suspition of a partial relator ; witnesse also t.d. himself , who ( if it be the same t.d. ( as no doubt it is ) who wrote both that book and the epistle , and narrative thereto annexed ) in p. . of the self-same book to the contradicting and confounding of himselfe in the former tale , together with those his own witnesses , tells all that truth that is last related . . they tell us one while ( that is , when we not only assert it , but evince it from the rule of contraries ) that its rank popery to say , good works deserve iustification . otherwhiles ( that is , when to the contradiction of themselves , they assert and evince the same from the same rule ) then ( to go round again ) it 's no popery ; witnesse t.d. who in p. . of his . pamphlet , sayes s.f. shews himself a rank papist indeed , in so arguing , yet p. . ( in proof of himselfe to be a good protestant , & no papist ) allows himself so to argue ; viz : evill works , which are the violation of the law , deserve damnation ; ergo good works which are the fulfilling of the law , deserve salvation [ adding ] that he knows no good works such ▪ but christs ; to which i answer , nor do i know any good works such , but christs ; [ and i adde ] i own all good works such , that are christs , and there t.d. dissents , in not owning all christs own good works such , but some only ( namely such as he did at ierusalem ) and some , even of christs own good works ( as namely , all such as he works in his saints , who works all their good works in them isa ; . . ) as no better then dung , losse , and filthy rags ; witnesse his blind blending of these two distinct businesses into one and the same ; viz : the righteousnesse wrought by men without christ ; and the righteousnesse wrought in men by christ ; or our good works , alias mans own righteousnesse , wrought only by men in their own wills , wisdome strength , according to their thoughts , imaginations , conceits , traditions , &c. without christs light and spirit ( which is that only the spirit calls ours , that is as an unclean thing , as filthy rags , isa : . . which god ( speaking to israel , that being ignorant of gods righteousnesse , went about to establish their own , rom : . . ) calls thy righteousnesse thy works , which cannot profit nor deliver ; isa : . , . and which paul , phil. . . stiles his own righteousnesse which was of the law , as in opposition to that of god and christ ) and those good works of christ in our persons , in performing whereof , the righteousnesse of the law is said ( though by christs power only ) to be fulfilled in us , rom : . . or that righteousnesse which is , though in the saints , yet of god alone through their faith in christ iesus the light , phil : . . for these two righteousnesses , the one whereof who is not blind may see to be only mans own , which is worse then naught , and avails not , the other only christs own , which must be of infinite worth , and desert to justifie ( as t.d. also to the further confounding of himselfe , truly confesses ; p. . . pam : ) from the dignity of the person or subject ( i.e. christ in us ) by whom it 's performed , t.d. confounds together , both into one and the self same , and consequently concludes himself unavoidably to be ( respectively ) both a self contradictor , and ( which is worse ) a most abominable blasphemer ; for if the righteousnesse and obedience that is by christs power performed in his saints persons , be both christs own , and yet mans own also . * then ( being one and the same individual righteousnesse ) it must have a mutual participation of the same properties and denominations , respectively , so that if christs own righteousnesse may be said to be of worth and desert to salvation ( as it truly is by t. d. himselfe then ● mans , pauls , the saints own righteousnesse ( which t.d. sayes was christs , received from christ , wrought by christ ) must be consequently meritorius also , and that 's a piece of rank popery , and wretched foppery of t.ds. own broaching ( who yet would father it upon the qua : ) which the qua : ( who own all mans own righteousnesse to be ( as the scripture sayes of it ) unclean , dung , losse , and filthy rags , and utterly unprofitable ) do as utterly abhorre , and so t.d. makes himselfe a merit monger , with a witnesse , such as never yet was found among the qua : that dying-qua : at dover himself , whom t.d. belyes in that particular , not excepted . and again , if mans , pauls , the saints own righteousnesse , may be said ( as it truly is , isa : . , . ( . . phil. . . ) to be unprofitable , unclean , dung , losse and filthy rags , then the self same which paul and other saints ( their own righteousnesse being no other then christs , then what they receive from him , and he works in them ( as t.d. sayes ) for their sanctification some of christs own righteousnesse , yea even that too which serves for the saints sanctification , and to make the saints meet for that possession , where ●no unclean thing must enter , * must be unprofitable , unclean , dung , losse and filthy rags , which is no lesse then point blank blasphemy : yea in expresse terms , p. . i deny our justification by christ in us quoth he ) by that righteousnesse in us whereof christ is the author ; as if that christ in us , and that righteousnesse of his in us , which is the same with that without us , deserved nothing . . moreover in saying there are two righteousnesses of christ , when as the righteousness of christ ( whether in himself , or in his saints ) is but one , he crouds confusion upon confusion , in the eye of every clear considerer of his inconsiderable stuff ; which cannot but see that what god joyns together as one , this he separates and puts asunder ; what is truly one ; and undivided as christ and his righteousnesse is ) this he divides , and distinguishes into two righteousnesses ; things meant by that one name of christ , his person and his operations in us ; the latter whereof he denys for righteousness to justification : but what things are truly and distinctly two , and ought accordingly to be , and by the lord are divided , separated and put asunder as mans , pauls the iewes own righteousnesse , and that righteousnesse which is of god by faith in christ , received from , and wrought by christ in his saints , which the scripture rom : phil. . opposes and speaks of as in contradistinction each to other ) these two t.d. and his brother builders whose work it is to build babel or confusion , as their reward is the division of their tongues confound and jumble both together into one . they tell us one while that truth christ tells his disciples , matth. . that except our righteousnesse exceed that of the scribes and pharisees , ( whose lives yet ( ad extra ) as to all outward appearance , were as exact , as they were strict in many religious observations we shall in no case enter into the kingdom . whereby they intimate we must live , walk , and obey gods holy truth and will , though by christs assistance , yet personally & more spiritually then they ; yea , they tell us what the gospel requires from us ( though it is to be done by christ in and for us ) is a more total abstinence from evil , and even lusting to it then the law , and so the gospel to call for more full self-denyall then the law , if ere we live ; the one saying thou shalt not commit adultery ; the other , thou shalt not lust ; the one , thou shalt not steak the other , thou shalt not covet ; the one , forswear not thy self , the other , swear not all ; the one , thou shalt not kill , the other , thou shalt not be angry without cause . otherwhiles ( to go round again ) they make the law require more full and exact obedience to god , then the gospel ; the law gives not life without perfect obedience ( quoth t.d. ) the gospel gives life upon imperfect obedience . . again , they tell us one while ( that is , when they preach to their people and see no quakers among them ) the same truths the scriptures tell us concerning god , that he is of purer eyes then to behold the least iniquity , that god , john . . accepts not , owns not , hears not sinners , says to such as work it , and depart not from iniquity ; depart from me all ye workers of iniquity , i know not whence ye are , matt : . . luke . . and though forgiving iniquity to the penitent , when they confesse and forsake sin , yet by no means clearing the guilty , while they lye in impaenitency under sin , exod . . that if the heart condemn , god in greater then it , and knows all , and what the light in the conscience speaks in way of that self-judgment , that 's placed in us , and seconds it to justification or condemnation , accusation or execusation , there needs no witnesse to convince a man ( quoth i.o. p : . . that it speaks it from god , it discovers it's author from whom it is , & in whose name it speaks ; so that if that ( as it does every sinner holds guilty , god , whose mind it speaks holds not guiltlesse ; yea , that he who justifies the wicked , & condemns the just , even they both are abomination to the lord , as pro : . . and much more of that sort ; i : e : when the qua : tell the same truths to turn men from all sin , which is transgression or iniquity [ for not the least sin is equity that i know of ] then , in opposition to the qua : they wheel about , and otherwhiles , as if god were another manner of god ; who , because its impossible by the power of his own grace to be fully freed , and perfectly purged from all sin here , will give indulgency to his sinning saints ( to go round again ) they tell us other tales of him , whereby ( if pro : . . be true ) they represent him as doing that , in the doing of which , he must be an abomination to himselfe ; viz : . that he condemns the just , witnesse t.d. who tells us , that here the best works , and personal performances of beleevers and saints themselves are imperfect , sin , iniquity , dung , losse , unclean filthy rags ( though done by christ in them ) and yet to go round again ) that god accepts , alias , is well-pleased , delights , and takes pleasure in both these beleevers and their wicked works ; witnesse the supralapsarian . predestination preachers , who represent god as loving of few only as iacob , hating most men personally with esau qua sic ) as men , the creatures of his own creation , to shew his wrath , power , soveraignty over them , as the potter over the clay of the same lump ( the mistery of which matters of iacob and esau , their meer mans wisdom sees no more into , then a moles eye into a milstone ) not onely before they had done either , but without reference to either good or evil foreseen to be done in time by either adam ( their supposed representative ) or themselves ; and the sublapsarians also , who represent god as ( by praeterition at least ) rejecting most on the account meerly of adams single act , without a respect to any personall actions of their own ; the least and best of which two do ( doctrinally ) make god a condemner for ever of millions of just innocents ; yea , very infants ( as they blush not to infer ) for one fault of their father adam , for whose only eating the sowr grapes , all the childrens teeth must be set on edge , contrary to what god sayes now , who will have that proverb used no more , but sayes as the soul that sinneth shall dye for his own , so every man only for his own iniquity , and not the son for the fathers , any more then the father for the sons . . that he condemns not , but clears the very guilty & justifies the very wicked and ungodly , & that not from for the qua : know that he justifies many ungodly ones from their ungodlinesse , they repenting , not resisting his spirit by which he would purg them , but giving up to become the godly whom only he hath chosen ps. . ) but even in the most wicked and ungodly actions , and even whilest under the guilt of most abominable transgressions , so wearying the lord , whom they speak well of sometimes as a god of true-judgment , with their evill words of him at other times , when they say , with the wicked priests of whom god by malachi complains ch : . . of such as do evil that they are good in the sight of the lord , and he delighteth in them , or where is the god of judgement ? as if he who changes not and said of old shall i count them pure , &c. mic : . . did change and become another kind of god at one time , then he is at another viz : to count men righteous , even while such treasures of wickednesse are in the house of their hearts , as render them no lesse then wicked , scanty , and abominable , and to count men as i know not that ever he did ) pure , with their wicked ballances , & with their bag of deceitful weights , while they are full of violence , and speak lyes , and their tongue is deceitful in their mouths ; witnesse not only all other his fellow pillow-sowers under their arms , and soothers up of sinners in their sins , and daubers of evill-doers with the smooth untempered morter of their peace , peace , when there is no peace ( saith my god ) unto the wicked ; but t.d. himself above all the rest , who p. . pam : . not only sayes , but still stands to it , and owns it or'e and or'e again , as grosse as it is , and iustifies it for truth , in his reply to r. h. who charges it on him [ justly ] as a grosse absurdity , which i have above also more at large replyed to that david , even when he was guilty ( mark that ) of adultery and murder ( such sins as for which the scripture , when he lay impenitent under them , denotes and excepts him as a man not upright , a despiser of god and his commandemenes , a doer of evil in his sight , sam : . whom god also had not mercy on , but did both condemn and severely judge with no lesse then hellish horrors for his filth & blood-guiltinesse , till he had repented for it , and was throwly purged from it , psalm . ) was not in a condemned , but in a justified estate . so that the sum of t.d. and those doctors doctrine that side with him therein , is this ; viz : ( to begin the dance right ) david while he commited adultery and murder , not repenting , was guilty before god , and consequently not just , nor justified , but condemned , for whom god holds not guiltlesse , but guilty , they are not justified , accepted , acquitted , absolved , approved ; but , which is all one , accused , reproved , condemned in his sight ; yet [ to go round again ] david while he committed adultery and murder , [ not yet repenting ] was not guilty before god , but held guiltlesse , not condemned , nor reprobated , or reproved , but cleared , acquitted , absolved , excused , approved ; for between the two slates of guilty and not guilty , non datur medium . contradictions , confusions , and rounds about liberty of conscience . ii. as to the doctrine for liberty of conscience , and against persecution for cause of conscience in matters of religion . one while they tell the world the doctrine and practice of rigid imposing upon any sub penâ , or persecuting any tender consciences for beleeving , and living according to their conviction , or denying to beleeve or live contrary thereunto , is a bloody tenet , a way to make more hypocrites , that for fear will conform to what they beleeve not to be truth , then true christians , an evident note of a false church , and antichristian ministry that is degenerate and apostatized from the true pure primitive church of christ , which never did compel any by force and violence to be christians , but rather suffered all sorts of sorrowes , and bare all manner of abuses from the whole world of false worshippers , whether heathens or nominal christians , barely for confessing to the truth of christ , and testifying against the evil lives of all christs enemies , whether such as hated the very outward name of christ , or such as named his name , and yet departed not from iniquity ; and were every where cursed , yet blessed the cursers of them , prayed for such as persecuted them , intreated those that desamed and ill-intreated them , and were patient & silent , when reviled and buffeted , beaten , banished as vagabonds ( because for truths sake they often left their own homes and had no certain dwelling place ) as seditious , tumultuous , disturbers of the peace because they peaceably went into synagogues to reason and preach the gospel of peace ) as turners of the world upside down , because they sought to change men from their evill manners , foolish customs , vain inventions , and wicked wayes , that were abominable to god , and to bring them to repentance from their dead works and worships , in which their souls could never live , to worship the living god , who is a spirit , and not tyed to places , in spirit and in truth in the inner parts , and to turn all men from the darknesse wherein they lived in the world without , to the light of christ within themselves , and from the power of satan unto god. sometimes i say ) our great gamaliels not only grant these things , but also give them out for truth to the civill powers of the earth , most especially then and that with no small greedinesse , when the clergy of one kind feel themselves begin to be griped under the greedy clutches of the clergy of another colour , when they are likely to be imposed upon by others , and to be clapped down under hatches by the clerical cruelties of each other respectively ; as for example , where ever the papal , or roman , or else the presbiterian primacy keeps the keys , & spreads their black eagles clams over all others , & hath the power of permitting or poenal imposing , there the prelatick pastoralty pleads his priviledge to have the liberty of his liturgy ( he behaving himselfe no otherwise then peaceably ) among them . where the episcopal priesthood holds his hierarchy , and is supream there , as the papal would willingly have his liberty ( and i blame none , neither iews , turks , nor heathens for desiring the like , to walk every one in the name of his god , mich ; . ) soth that right-rigid scottish presbiterian race , and that mongrill seed of loose independentpresbiters , are more loud for liberty then any other sort of sectaries ( so called ) whatsoever , who do all no lesse rationally then they [ they demeaning themselves peaceably ( as the very principle of the quakers binds them to do to all men ) require each the peaceable enjoyment of his religion , church-ministry , fellowship , faith and way of worship under them ; when the rabbies are ready to be ridden one by another ( witnesse the outcries once of new-england against old , when under the heat of far lesse persecution from the bishops , then they have acted since themselves . old england it self was too hot to hold them , also the present pleadings , not only for their directorian liberties , but ( turpe et miserabile ) their very livings , tythes , preferments , and their places , now the common prayer book priesthood , whom they unhorsed , hath his foot in the stirrup again , and may not unlikely push the presbiter besides the saddle ) then , oh then , what hue and cry against the bloody tenet of persecution , and grievous groans for this desire of all nations and people , liberty of conscience , liberty of conscience , do we dayly hear from smectimnuus his own , as well as others mouthes . otherwhiles again , yea ever when the clergy of any one colour , hath by either craft or conquest catcht the keyes of the kingdome , and atchieved the holy chaire , they straightway clap their cruell clawes upon them , to the keeping down by force of armes more then arguments all liberty for any consciences but their own . then ( to go round again ) come let us sing a new song , behold cry the counsellers of egypt , the people of the children of israell are more &c. exod. . , , . as pharoah said unto his people , behold , the people of the children of israel are more and mightier then we . come on , let us deal wisely with them , lest they multiply , and it come to passe , that when there falls out any war , they joyn also unto our enemies , and fight against us , and so get them up out of the land. therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens , and they built for pharoah treasure cities , pithom and raamses . then they set taskmasters . then say the sanballats and tobiasses , the ammonites and ashdodite , as they neh. . , , , , . but it came to passe that when sanballat heard that we builded the wall , he was wroth and took great indignation , and mocked the iews . and he spake before his brethren , and the army of samaria , and said , what do these feeble iews ? will they fortifie themselves ? will they sacrifice ? will they make an end in a day ? will they revive the stones out of the heaps of rubbish which are burnt ? but it came to passe that when sanballat , and tobiah , and the arabians , and the ammonites , and the ashdodites heard that the walls of ierusalem were made up , and that the breaches began to be stopped , then they were very wroth , and conspired all of them together , to come , and to fight against ierusalem , and to hinder it . and our adversaries said , they shall not know , neither see , till we come in the midst among them , and slay them , and cause the work to cease . then call they out for the help of prisons , and punishments , cruel mockings and scourgings , pillorings , gaggings , draggings before rulers , accusations to magistrates , condemnings at iudgement-seats , cutting off ears , slitting noses , fines , confiscations , stockings , & stonings , beatings , buffetings , brandings , borings , banishings , hangings , burnings , as men no more fit to live among men nor on the earth , of such as conforme not to their conceits , as fall not down before what ever golden image they set up ; then the priests and prophets like those mic. . that cryed peace , peace , begin to bite with their teeth , and to prepare war against all whose consciences cannot own them as their own and christs ministers , so as to put into their mouths , then away with all such fellowes from their families to courts and consistoryes , holes and dungeons , haile them from their houses , tear them and theirs to pieces for our tithes , spoile and make havock of their goods , let their relations perish and beg their bread , let their children be fatherlesse and their wives widows ; this and the like divinity is divined out from among the divines , to the contradicting of themselves as to that doctrine of liberty of conscience , they were most devoted to , while they remain sufferers under one another ; witnesse ( as i said ) the sad sufferings of several of truths truest friends , not only to bloody whippings , beatings , banishments , and bonds , but also to the death of their bodyes by hanging in new-england of late , who had , not long since , fled out of old-england for their conscience sake , and for fear ( comparatively to their own fearful fleaings of christs flock ) of but a few flea-bitings by the bishops , witnesse also what i. o. himself , an high-priest who soon forgot that ere he was clark , not only did in his vicechancellorship , but also would have had done , had he had his own will , who when by his loudnesse for it , he had got not only a liberty for his conscience , to very loosenesse and licentiousnesse , but also a large livelihood for his own carkasse , not only many other wayes abused the qua : who disturbed nothing but that in every one that will be destroyed ; but also in the place aforesaid , exer : . s. . bespeaks the whole world on behalfe of that innocent people , for nothing but teaching that innocent doctrine of freedom from all sin , & perfecting holinesse in this life ( which t.d. and t. rumsy also wish as well to , as to any doctrine of dev●ls . by which name they also call it ) to this tune , fanaticos non esse perfectos testimonio sunt illorum menda●ia , fraudes , scelera , hypocrisis ; iis vero qui immunes se esse ab his omnibus aliisque pe●catis vel levissimis impudenter gloriantur , punitiones et incarcerationes , quas akatastasia sua sibi ultro accersunt , esse debeant ; that the qua : are not perfect their lyes , frauds , hainous crimes and hypocrisies do testifie to us , but to them who impudently glory ( so indeed the qua : do not but assert that freedom attainable ) that they are free from all these and other sins , even the least the more purity it seemsmen come to the more to be punisht with him punishments and prisons , which by their tumultuousnesse ( such as that of paul and other apostles , cor. . were proved to be christs ministers by ) they voluntarily pull on themselves ( as the saints and christ ever did by exposing themselves to their malice for mens souls sakes ought to be ; for which wickednesse of working & wishing that evil to others , which they would not , when they were under others willingly have done to theselves , hath the lord who avengeth the cause of his poor people , who had rather suffer persecution ever , then either act it themselves , or wish that any for meer conscience ( though blinded ) should suffer by it ; yea god , who judgeth all truly according to their own false judgement of others , justly meteth out to that hypocriticall generation , that with capernaum clim'b up to heaven in forms and fair words , and fine shews , but are now brought down to hell , the same measure they meted to his people , and will i doubt not in due time ( except they yet repent ) do the like to those holy hypocrites of new-england : and let those priests , who have now the preheminence , take heed of pushing too hard against the pricks , is my desire to them for their own souls , who are every way concerned to be wary of that wonted way of wearing out , wearying and worrying of christs little flock for not feeding and cloathing , with their fleeces , such shepheards , as do not feed them : and that the king and all the powers that subordinately act under him , may so far know in this their day what makes for their externall , internall , and eternal peace , as not to be found fighters against god , nor to touch those anointed ones , for whose sakes god hath of old , and will again rebuke great kings and nations , whose true intent is not to use any carnal weapons against any , but to let his prophets , lambs , and little ones alone to live a peaceable and quiet life under them in all godlinesse and honesty , as 't is the best good i can , so 't is the worst hurt i do wish to him and them : for of a truth the lord himself is risen up for the help of his own seed , against all that slayes it , and if they hearken to the hasty hue and cry of such priests , as cry out to them for help against his saints , when the lord ariseth once more against the house of the evil-doers , and against the help of them that work iniquity , and stretcheth out his hand again ( as undoubtedly he will do to deliver his ransomed ones that are found in innocency toward the king and all men , both he that helpeth shall fall , and he that is holpen shall fall , and they shall all fail together of their expected ends , and aim to root out the seed of israel , for the mouth of the lord of hosts hath spoken it , isa. . , . be wise now therefore o king , be instructed o ye iudges of this english nation , serve the lord with fear , and rejoyce before him ( in this day wherein he hath lifted up your heads ) with trembling ; oppose him not by your interpositions and impositions in his own court , which is the conscience , for let heathenish people rage and imagine what they will , let earthly kings set themselves , & rulers take counsel together as they will , it s in vain if against the lord , and his anointed christ jesus his son in his saints , whom he will set as his king in the conscience , and in his holy hill of sion : but rather kisse the son lest he be angry , and ye perish for ever from the way of your own peace , for if his wrath be kindled , yea but a little , blessed are all they only that trust and hope in him , psal. . contradictions and rounds about the modern infallible teachings of gods infallible spirit . iii. as to our doctrine of the present guidance of christs church and ministry by his own infallible spirit ; they tell us sometimes , or at least yeeld to us when we tell them , that at this day they only , that are led by the spirit of god , are the sons of god , that if any have not christs spirit , and the guidance thereof , which is an infallible spirit and guidance ( for we know no fallible spirit that he hath , nor fallible guidance that that spirit hath ) which leads undoubtedly all men and ministers that follow it , and not the lustings of the flesh against it , into no sin , out of all errour , into all truth , being truth it selfe and no lye , and that some there are now , that are led of that spirit , and walk after it , and not after the flesh , as then there were , rom : . gal : . by and by ( they finding themselves erring and contradicting one another , and no betier guided in things of god then by their own thoughts , uncertain conjectures , crooked conceits , whereby they crosse one another in their several senses & meanings , about the one mind of christ , in that one writing , which they call their rule ) because they follow their own flashy fancies , and not the spirit , and measuring all others by themselves ( to go round again ) they tell us another thing , and make it no lesse then a matter of meer pretence and high presumption , not so much as safely to be supposed that a man should be now theopnuestos , divinely inspired , or infallibly guided by gods spirit in these dayes , as it that spirit did not continue his infallible , but afforded only some kind of fallible guidance to his church & ministry now , and led them , as r.b.i.t. also say the light within did the heathen p. . in somethings well , in most into crooked and dangerous wayes , and that makes these men sometimes bid men attend and sake heed to it , sometimes again ( cane pejus et angue ) reject , detest , and take heed of it , as i shall shew more by and by ; witnesse i.o. in the places above talkt with , where he talks down all divine inspiration and guidance now a dayes by the infallible spirit , as matters but falsely pretended to , p. , . . . &c. and t.d. who denys his own ministry to be infallible and thereby proclaming those to be but fools who follow it , accuses the qua : of falsehood with a witnesse , for once offering to affirm this truth that theirs ( which yet is truly christs ministry ) is infallible : as ( quoth he ) to the infallibillity of their ministry , jurates of sandwich will testifie that they did affirm their ministry to be infallible : which if it were not ( say i ) i would yeeld our selves to be as very fools who suffer for it , as those would be who also suffer for attending to it . contradictions , confusions & rounds concerning the large love and rich mercy of god to all mankind . iv. as to the doctrine of gods great grace , universal love , and rich mercy to all men , they extoll it in their proclamations of it one while as an infinite , boundlesse , bottomlesse bounty , matchlesse mercy , endlesse large love , exceeding rich grace , lifting up their voyces among all people to this , or the like tune ; o the rich , infinite , unexpressible , unconceiveable , incomprehensible love of god in christ iesus to all mankind , to the whole world , so hath he loved the world ( a sic without a sicut ) that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever beleeves in him might not perish , but have everlasting life : god sent not be son into the world to condemn the world , but that the world through him might be saved , he is not willing any one of you should perish , but that all should come to repentance , and be saved in the acknowledgement of his truth . therefore ho every one that thirsteth , come ye to the waters , come and buy wine & milke , but without mony , without price ; god is free of what he hath ( onely the priests ( that have freely received , and should as freely give ) give them their fees , let them have money , and price , and pay , and augmentations , and maintenance enough ) god looks for nothing . come unto christ all ye that labour and are heavy laden , here 's rest for all your souls : the spirit and the bride say come , and who ever will , let him come and take of the water of life freely : obje : oh but we are sinners , will god own us ? answ : art thou a sinner ? then who ere thou art , thou art one of those christ came to save become to save that which was lost , to take away the sins of the world . obj : oh but we are great sinners , wicked wretches , such as never were the like , multiplying sins , transgressions , is there any hope for us ? answ : if we confesse our sins he is faithful and just to forgive them , pardoning iniquity , transgression and sin , christ hath received gifts for the rebellious , he tasted death for every man , he is a propitiation not for some only , but also for the sins of the whole world ; he opens the door of salvation to all , his tender mercies are over all his works , he delights to magnifie his mercy above all ; it rejoyceth against judgement ; come all and welcome , none shall be cast off in any wise that come to him , he would have all to come , he is not willing that any should perish : behold i bring you glad tydings of great joy to all people , a saviour is borne unto them , from god , there 's peace proclaimed , good 〈◊〉 towards men ; though they are enemies to him by wicked works , yet god is in christ reconciling the world to himselfe , not imputing trespasses to any that will be reconciled unto him : he swears that he hath no pleasure in the death of him that dyeth , but had much rather that the wicked should turn from his wickednesse and live , and therefore he hath sent his son a light to the nations , and so to be his salvation , even to the ends of the earth , and this he also declares to men as his good will to them all , and calling to all to look to him and be saved , universally , freely , truly ( without mockage ) tendering peace to all , offering salvation to all men , intending no otherwayes then he sayes , that every individual that turns to him shall have it , and hath wrought in them to will and to do , and now would have them will & do , hath given every one a talent , in which trading he shall enter into the joy , but being unfaithful with , and not improving , thereupon only they are shut out ; and abundance more of the like , which is all precious , and the plain truth of the scripture , which they call the revealed will of god , according to which only we must judge of gods mind to man-ward . otherwhiles again , that is , when the qua : come to question them before their people whether it be so in very deed or no , as they say , that god is so much more prone to mercy then severity , and is so truly loving to all mankind , to all sinner ( and so consequently to all men , for all are but sinners ) provided they accept his grace given , and improve it , & be not wanting to themselves , and come to him , & whether he would honestly & heartily ( as he says ) that all should come and would come , and would not have them , ponere obitem , hinder their salvation , and put it away from them , and that god as truly intends their good , as they extend the newes of it , if men refuse not the offer and would indeed have them accept of the offer and not slight it ? then o come let us sing a new song ( to go round again ) the divine doctrine of gods universal love is drawn in again , as damnable heresie , and his grace niggarded up into a corner , and his mighty mercy diminisht into a mite , and a tale told us that this is but a generall outside profer , he intends not truly that all shall come to him by repentance , and have benefit by the death of his son , he dyed not for all , but though it s said all , every man , by all he means but a few , and he hath not put all so much as into a capacity , or common possibility of life by his son , nor into so much as an ability to come to him , the most can't chuse life that they may live , they may chuse death that they may dye , and must chuse that , being afore of old ordained to condemnation , and so though mercy and misery , blessing and cursing be set before them , and they bid to chuse , yet their wills must of necessity chuse the curse , having it not wrought in them ( as a few have ) so much as to will and to do any good , and so though they have good and evill to chuse , which they will of the two , yet when all 's done , as the case is , they must ( hobsons choice ) cleave to the evil , and chuse whether they will have that or none , having not only no arbitrium liberum , but not so much as liberatum , they are yet lockt up to a post by adams fall years before they were born , and were never unloosed to this day , nor ever must be , so as to be at liberty to come when they are call'd , and yet must be condemned too for not coming . they have enough given them to leave them without excuse & damn them , but christen sub nulla considerationem , quoth i.o. exer : . christ in no case hath given a saving light to all , nor god grace sufficient to save them , unto them all : christ , comfort , that 's the childrens bread , it belongs not to the dogs , christ dyed and is given only for the world of the elect that beleeve , but the most not only do not , but cannot beleeve ; and besides there 's no saviour for the most to beleeve in ( as theirs being sent in gods love but to a few , so that if the most , if all should beleeve him to be theirs , the most must beleeve a lye , for 't is not so , yet ( to go round again ) this withall they must know that they must be condemned for not beleeving a lye for not beleeving that , which if they should all beleeve , the most must beleeve a lye ; for he that beleeves not is condemned , because he beleeves not in the only begotten son of god , and this and no other thing is their condemnation , but because christ is come a light into the world , and they come not to it , beleeve not in it , but love the darknesse more then it otherwise christ came not into the world to condemn the very world ( which is condemned ) but to this intent that the world throw him might be saved . and ( to go round again ) though they are sent to make such fair proffers , promises , and large proclamations of gods love , yet this is but his revealed will , he does but do this to make men beleeve he is so loving to them , as to give his own son for them , that if they beleeve it not as he knows they cannot , faith being his gift , and that which he will give but to few , and leave the most unable to beleeve ) he may come the more in wrath against a hundred to one of mankind , and take vengeance on them for their not beleeving that false testimony , which in his revealed will he gives by us of his son , but he hath a secret will , hidden from us , wherein he far otherwise peremptorily decrees , that b●● few only shall be saved , and this ( though hidden from us ) we declare to be of the twain the very truth indeed . cum multis aliis ejusdem furfuris , quae nunc prae scribere longum est . just as if , a thousand men fast fettered up in prison , standing all condemned to be hanged , a messenger should be sent from a king , in whose power it is to save or slay them all on what terms he pleases , to proclaim the good-newes , and the glad-tidings of pardon and life to them all , and the wonderfull mercy of the king to them all , as one more prone by far to mercy then wrath , in such wise and to such a purpose as followes : o ye poor undon lost men , ye lye now at the mercy of the king , dead men all , but behold i am come from him to bring glad tidings of great joy to you all , lift up your heads , chear up your hearts , the king that he may shew he delights more in saving then destroying , in mercy then wrath , though for displeasing him , not personally , but paternally , in your fathers loins , he has advantage to cut you all off , yet he is resolved to save one of you and hang but , and he would every man of , you beleeve it for himself that its he in particular he comes to , and not to the rest ; and yet to go round again ) conditionally that every man of you beleeve it for himself , it is to every such individual indeed , & consequently both to one and all the rest , and if ye all unloose your selves out of the chains and come away ( but that ye can't do , and 't is not his will ye should , and none must give you the keyes ) ye shall all be spared , and i know not which that elect one is for my part , nor which of you all it is he in tends absolutely to spare , that lyes in his secret will , but i am sent with his revealed will to tell you that he that can beleeve it , it s he that is to be favoured ; he is the man who ere it is , and though ( i am sure his love ) is to but one , and are peremptorily , personally , possitively ordained to dye ; yet ( to go round again ) if ye all beleeve his love to you , ye shall all live , if any dye 't is his own fault , because he beleeves not the kings love to him , and comes not away out of his fetters , and nothing else , and though he can't come out of his fetters , yet let him know its but just that i should leave him there because his father offended the king before he was born , it s enough for them that he is so rich in mercy to the whole thousand , as to save one , and proclaim salvation to all , with no intent of pardon , that he may take the more advantage on the rest by their refusal to come , when they cannot , to do execution on them with ten fold more wrath , rigour and severity , then if the pardon never had been proclaimed to them at all . in much what such a rambling , confused , self-contradictory manner do our nationall-messengers and ministers of gods grace ( consideratis consider●ndis ) hold out their gospell to all men as embassadours from god to them all. one while extolling , & extending it over all gods works to all men , and otherwhiles , when they have carryed it about long in a vast circuit and circumference of commendatory conference ( to go round again ) in their niggardly news-books they wind it about , and wrap it all up within the narrow corner of their conceited wheel , within a wheel , or little world of a few elect ones only , extenuating it till they allmost quite extinguish it in their talk , & preach it welnigh into nothing : witnesse i.o. ( as is shewed more at large in the book aforesaid ) and t.d. also telling us indeed that god offers salvation to all men , but intends it only to a few . contradictions , confusions , and rounds about the doctrine of perfect freedom from sin attainable in this life . v. as to salvation from sin in this life , which christ gives to all that follow him in his light . one while they teach it to us themselves as attainable here by the grace of god , as the qua : do , in these or the like deliveryes of themselves in their preachings and writings according to the scriptures ; people ye must deny all ungodlinesse and worldly lusts , and live godly , righteously , and soberly ( mark ) in this present world ; the grace of god that bringeth salvatioe to such as take heed to it , and receive it not in vain , appears to all men , and teaches them so to live , but that they turn from it and turn it into wantonnesse , and if we walk in the light as god is in the light , we then have fellowship with him ( who hath none with sin and sinners ) and not only so , but also the blood of iesus christ his son cleanseth us from all sin , and though we cannot say we have no sin , since we and all men have sinned , yet if we confess our sins god is faithful not only to forgive us our sins past , but ( which is a further matter ) to cleanse us from all unrighteousnesle : having therefore such promises let us cleanse our selves from ( mark ) all filthiness of flesh and spirit ( who knows any more then all ) perfecting holiness in gods fear ; the blessed men , psal. . . are the saints or holy ones that do no iniquity but walk in gods way and though ye think well of your selves because your sins are little , yet no sin is so little , but if liv'd & died in , its damning , therefore take heed of the least iniquityes , & while ye have time and space given you to repent from them in , leave , forsake , foregoe them , live according to the scripture , which allows of no sin , which is written that men might not sin , which is able through faith to make a man of god perfect and wife to salvation from sin , which is perfect to its own end , which is salvation , which end it attains not hereafter ▪ for its of no use then , and therefore must do it here , or no where , so that if you dye in the least of your sins ( unrepented from ) better ye had never been born , for there 's no purgatory in the world to come as the pope sains , but as the tree falls it lyes , as death leaves you , judgement finds you , if ye lye down in your graves in your sins , you will rise out of them full of sorrowes : listen unto christs ministers , who are given for the work of the ministry , for the perfecting of the saints , the edifying of the body , till we all come to a perfect man , to the measure of the stature of the fullnesse of christ himselfe , so as to be as he is in this world , and whoever saith he abides in him ought so to walk as himselfe walked in whom was no sin : and who hath true hope in him purifieth himselfe as he also is pure ; and a multitude more sayings of like sort we may hear them utter . otherwhiles ( that is when the qua : call men to the same living without sin , telling them these things are possible to be done by gods grace , who of his good pleasure hath wrought in men to will and to do , so that by the power and sufficiency of that they may now work out their own salvation , if they neglect not this day of gods long suffering and salvation , wherein god would succour them if they will , and that god requires not by either his ministers or their scriptures , impossibilities from his creatures under such paenalty as eternall damnation if not performed ) then ( to go round again ) they tell us other matters , which ( as contradictory as they are to those above-said ) we must notwithstanding ( or else be held for hereticks ) believe from them to be the truth , viz. that t is most false to affirm that the scripture ( the perfection whereof they plead to lye , in nullâ aliâ re , in no other thing then its sufficiency to its end , which it can't attain hereafter ( if not here ) sith there it ceases as to all its uses ) either doth or can obtain its end ( which end they say also is salvation from the sin that destroyes the soul ) dum in hoc mundo haremus ( so sayes i. o. ex. . ) while we have a being in this world. then they make as if the ministry of them who wrote the scriptures , were such as their own is , viz. a meer antick mockage of men , a conclave of contradictions , confusions , absurdities and rounds , a ministry of flat falsities ( not to say fooleries ) a mad-message of impossibilities , wherein they stand all their dayes calling upon all men for money ( as homines domini ) in nomine domini in the name of god on pain of his eternall displeasure and their demnation , to do what they are to believe to as an article of their faith on pain of the hereticks condemnation , all men can never possibly do , god empowering but very few by true grace to do ought at all of what he requires ; nay not empowering any one at all to do all that , viz. to cease from all sinning against him in the time of this life , wherein he requires it to be done by them ; as being never possible to be done in that to come if neglected here : yea then the doctrine of full freedome from sin here is contrary to the tenour of the scripture , ( quoth t. d. ) yea in short no better nor worse then a very doctrine of devils ( quoth t. d. and t. rumsey both in their book , which is so largely answered already in mine above said . ) so then we have the ministers mind in this poynt tripliciter or rather quadrupliciter at least about the time of the saints perfect purgation from all sin . first , it is somewhere that they all confesse at first . secondly , 't is not here in this world , ( cry they ) that comes too near the copyhold of the qua : and we would not be ensnared with their beguiling doctrine . thirdly , 't is not in that to come ( cry they ) this puts us poynt blank into the purgatory of the pope : we must beware of that , lest fleeing too farre from the qua : snare we fall into the papists pit . fourthly , 't is not in any world between this and that to come , for there 's no such middle world that we know of ; therefore fifthly , ( to goe quite round to where we were before we began , for incidit in seyllam qui vult vitare charybdim ) it 's somewhere ( as we said at first ) but we know not where ; which ( to go round again ) is as much as to say ( for ought we know ) just no-where at all . howbeit some are not so well aware yet of the traps they talk themselves into thereby , but that they will be taking on them precisely to determine where it is when we closely urge them ; but their testimony hangs as handsomely , and is as well tangled together as the links of a pair of pothangers , where of every one draws a different way from another , for some if askt when the full purging is ; it is ( say they ) while the soul is passing between here and heaven after its departed from the body ; this as a. p. informes me was t. ds. answer to l.h. when askt at sandwich in an assembly of many the precise time and period of the perfect purging ; so making a purgatory after death notwithstanding , which it seems is in the aire , and therein only different from the popes , which is seigned to be under the earth : others that i have put the question to , say t is a little before the soul departs out of the body , to whom when i have redoubled my query thus ; if a little before the soul depart why not a little sooner , sith before is but before let it be a longer or a lesser while ? and if a minute , why not an how ? if an hour , why not a day ? and so ( caeteris paribus , the same means attended to ) why not a month , a year , and years , many as well as few ? i have received no answer and good reason why , because there 's none to give ; and so we take it for granted from them that it 's before death , however as we say ( if at all ) though these contradict t.d. who sayes , with the pope , it 's after death : others not knowing which to say , seeing according to our argument , which is thus , viz. perfect purging , if at all , must be in this world as the qua ; say , or in that to come as the pope says , who seigns a purgatory there for the remnant of sins that remain unpurged away here , or else in another world , betwixt this and that to come , which chimara who ere heard of ? being now somewhat wary left if they say before the soul go out , which is in this world , they yield to the qua : and if after it 's gone out which is the world to come , they appeare too near a kin to the pope in his poynt of purgatory , affirme it to be in the very 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or moment or instant of the souls departure , which is not in tempore it seems , not in any time at all , but in instanti , and so sith instans non est tempus , but as it were punctum temporis , the instant being but a poynt of time and not properly time it self ; it seems that accidit in puncto quod non speratur in aevo . that happens in a poynt of time , which could never be so much as hoped to he attained in all the life time before . thus the divines dance between this world and that to come , not knowing yet where purgatory is , nor daring to say distinctly one thing nor other , whether here or hereafter , in this world or that , hovering like caesar at rubicon with one foot over the dore sell t' other on this side , one in , t'other out ▪ one in that world , t'other in this world , saying with him yet i may go on , and when afraid , yet i may go back ; so 't is somtimes one way , then another , somtimes both wayes , the and t'other ; somtimes one , o' th' two , take either , somtimes 'twixt both worlds , in neither ; some say 't' si'th ' aire , some say 't's i' th' earth ; of knowledge where 't is there 's a dearth . some say 't's here , there some , some ( o riddle ) nor here , nor there , but just i' th' middle . contradictions , and various self-confutations , absurdities , riddles and rounds about their rule of scriptures . v. as to their doctrine about the scripture or letters , and not the spirit and lights being the word of god , the fixt , firme foundation , stable standard , truest touchstone or tryall of all truth , only sure , inalterable , invariable , infallible rule of holy life , they tell us one while not the light within , but the hebrew and greek texts and transcripts only . and those at least ( though no translations , but as agreeing therewith ) are all those things abovesaid , that one only lydius lapis , unchangeable measure for all doctrines , spirits , faiths , truths , and things of god , and sayings to be measured by , yea both it self , and its own sayings also ; the word of god properly , the foundation , rule , inalterable and unaltered in so much as points , tittles , iota's , or losse of one letter or syllable , and what not ? quarrelling with the qua : as siders with papists in denying it only to be all this , and for calling it a nose of wax that is flexible , and may be twined and wrested by mistakes and mistranscriptions ( as themselves confesse it may by many mistranslations and for calling it ( as i.o. himself calls that most ancient translation of it , the septuagint ( therefore see what an infallible rule and word of god poor people have that know not heb. and greek ) a lesbian rule , &c. witnesse i. o. whose businesse in all his book above mentioned is to prosecute the proof of the scripture in those and the like particulars , and t. d. in his books , where he disputes the scripture to be the word of god , and only rule of faith , and life , and that there 's no other standing rule but the scriptures , p. , . pam. p. . . pam. otherwhiles , yea no further off then in the self same books wherein they prosecute the proof thereof , yea and t.d. no further off then in one of the self same pages , wherein he begins his discourse with me about it ( to go round again ) they plainly enough confesse the scripture to be neither the word of god nor the rule , witnesse t. ds. words , who , when told what the scripture is , viz. a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the letter , writing that holy men wrote , replies you cannot think us so silly sure as to affirm the scripture in that sence ( which yet is the only sense in which it can properly be called scripture ) to be the word of god , but we mean the matter contained in the scripture ( which is another matter then the scripture ) whether that be the rule of faith or no : witnesse also i. o. who ex. . . sayes scriptura non verbum dei vocatur formaliter quatenus scripta &c. the scripture formally considered ( and if not so , not properly ( say i ) for forms dat esse , et est id per quam resest id quod est , is that by which every thing is what it is ) is not called the word of god. and yet ( to go round again ) p. . if the scripture be what it reveals and declares it self to be , it is then unquestionably the word of the living god , for that it professeth of it self from the beginning to the ending , and exer. . s. . scripturam saepius eo nomine a spiritu sancto indigitari cuivis eas vel leviter inspicienti fa●ile apparebit ; that the scripture is very oft specially pointed out by that name is plain to him that but lightly looks into it . exer. . s. . scriptura verbum dei est , locis poene innumeris verbum dei dicitur . the scripture in well nigh innumerable places is called the word of god , joh. . . ( a text that vel leviter inspicienti touches on no such matter ) and yet ( to go round again ) in the self same section , in the very next clause , for all those innumerable places ( if there were , as there are not , so many in the book as the scotchman said ) ubi verbum dei ennarratur promulgari , &c. where the word of god is said to be preached , publisht , multiplyed , received , that most holy truth it self , which is in mens hearts , and is the matter of it , is , but the scripture ( formaliter ) formally considered in no wise is intended : and yet ( to go round again ) exer. . s. . fault is found with the quakers by i. o. as meer seigners from them of that verbum internum or inward word they talke of because they do no more then i.o. does i.e. not own the scriptures to be intended in those well nigh innumerable places , but that holy matter , truth or word the scripture speaks of as nigh in the heart ( of which i.o. himself ex. . s . sayes also thus , verbum quod in nobis est , &c. the word in us is that word of faith the apostles preach ) which well nigh innumerable places also i. o. himself sayes cannot be intended of christs person neither , quoniam autem millies fere mentio facta est verbi dei , &c. because there is well nigh a thousand times mention made of the word of god , and its preaching publishing , receiving , in those places which can't possibly be meant of the person of christ and the qua ; will not acknowledge the scripture as intended there neither , they carve from thence and wrest from thence i know not what internall word , of which they are possessors in chief & haeredes ex asse of such as held it shut up among themselves of old : so shewing himself to be none of those disciples of christ , among whom his testimony is bound , and his law sealed up , and hasting in his haughty mind to quarrell with the qua : for that which is no fault ( unlesse it be his own also he proves himself to haeves ex asseitlorum quos tenebrae antea inclusos tenuerunt , who were justly shut up in groapable darknesse for despising the true light , so as to groap for the wall like the blind , as if he had no eyes , to stumble at noon day as in the night , and , as one horrendo percussus scotomate , to run round with other blind guides in his giddy mind without sense or reason so as not to feel when he interferes and hacks one leg against another , yea somtimes he confesses that the very greek and heb. copies or transcripts are not only ( as well as translations ) by the fallibility of the scribes , and the criticall faculties of men , liable to be turned eight wayes in one word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , some as contrary one to another as life to death , and what way any critick will , and that the very immediate transcribers of the originall , both might and also did erre , faile , mistake , and that thereupon various lections ( when as i.o. at first said there was none at all , not in a tittle ) are risen ( witnesse i. os. own confession ) and so not fit to be a foundation or a rule which ( to goe round again ) they say ( witnesse r.b.i.t. ) must not be variable ; and those ( though nickt in at next word by i. o. into the lesse offensive and formidable number of a few ) yet at next word ( to go round again ) both clearly confest and plainly cleared by i. os. own self , to be many , among which though i. o. at the next word nullifies them all under that diminutive name of apicular , inconsiderable accents not at all intren●hing on the sense , or at all of any moment , of no importance ) yet some ( to go round again ) are confessed to be of some importance , and those of importance ( quoth he ) are considered by glassius , and consisting not only in superfluity of words unnecessary , but in deficiency of words necessary to the sense of the places , and that some of them are of such moment as textum sacrum et in literis et sensu corrigere , that they do alter the text both in its letters and its sense : and though , to get from under that grievous gash which this grant of his own gives to his grand assertion of no variation of the text in tittles , i. o. glazes it over with this glosse , viz. that those that are inconsistent with the sense in their stations , of more or lesse weight or moment are but private obscure and novell not above two or three hundred years standing , in some late , but no antient copies , yet by and by ( to go round again ) i. o. denyes not but that some are not only of such publick and open observation as to be obvious to the view of all , but also of long standing witnesse his words , p. . there are ( quoth he ) in some copies of the new testament , and those some of them of good antiquity , diverse readings in things or words of lesse importance ( and those which are of importance ( quoth he p. . ) have been already considered by others , specially glassius , is acknowledged , the proof of it lyes within the reach of most in the copies that we have , and i shall not sollicit the reputation of those who have afforded us others out of their own private furniture , and pag. . of his epist. he grants that there are corruptions ( mark ) and various lections in the greek copies of the scripture , and our grant ( quoth i. o. ) is founded on this experience , that we evidently find various lections in the greek copies we enjoy , and so grant that which ocular inspection evinces to be true : and though i.o. having yielded the greek text to be corrupted which is enough to prove his foundation faulty and fallible , if the hebrew text were to a tittle entire ) fills up that gap again with this fiddle-fadling defence ( viz. ) tet there are none able to shew out of any copies yet extant in the world , or that they can make appear ever to have have been extent , that ever there were any such various lections in the originalls of the old testament : neverthelesse ( to go round again ) notwithstanding what hath been spoken ( quoth he , p. . ) we grant that there are and have been various lections in the old testament and the new ; and so falls a shewing in many pages together many varieties in the old testament himself , to save his antagonists the labour of shewing what he tells them they are not able to shew , some of which are not obscure and private ( as i. o. sayes they are ; but publick and open ( as i.o. sayes ) not ( as i. o sayes they are ) of no importance , but of importance , and inconsistent with the sence ( as i. o. sayes to go round again ) not novell , and of late only ( as i. o. sayes they are ) but ( as i. o. sayes to go round again ) of longer standing , of some good antiquity : thus i. o. all this while gives and takes grants and begs back again , abates & exacts the whole again , allows and pulls in again , owns and denyes , le ts go and commands home again his assertion , till by a little and a little he hath let it go , and granted it all away , and then ( to go round again ) fearing he hath let it go too far from serving his turn , does what in him lyes ( though hoe a liquid nihil est ) by a little and a little to fetch it all in again to his first pretended purpose ; he goes on granting from ore shooes to ore boots , till in the quagmire , wherein he quavers too and fro in his quarrel for his quick-sandy foundation , he sinks first up to the ankles , then up to the knees , anon up to the loynes , by and by up to the neck : and lastly , fearing lest he hath gone so far in granting to the weakening of his own assertion of the texts integrity to a little , that he shall hardly ever recover it to stand for truth in that ex sui site primitive posture , wherein he at first exerted and propounded it , unlesse he utter somwhat more like a man , & more to the purpose then all those childish pedling put offs , i.o. urges a knocking argument from the multitude of the copies to the impossibility of the texts being corrupted ; thus viz. p. . there was a multiplying of copies to such a number that it was impossible any should corrupt them all willfully , or by negligence , which hath as much reason in it as his other confident conclusions have , for ( riddle me this , ye rabbies ) why might not the same fate fall out to one copy of scripture in its transcribing as to another ? and if the fate and fault of falsity and mistake to some , why not to all ? yet if it were never such a solid consequence we need not deny it ; i. o. ( who still saves us the labour of confuting i. o. ) knocks it down and confounds it himselfe , while elsewhere he argues from the multitude of copies to the impossibility of their escaping corruptions ; for ( to go round again ) that so many transcriptions ( quoth he ) should be made without some variation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is , impossible ; thus running out in hast to recover his lost assertion , he runs himselfe or'e head and eares in the gulf of most irrecon●ileable contradiction , and irrecoverable confusion ; yea , how many various lections and various contradictions to himself , are to be found ( yet here 's not all ) in i. os. opposing of that one plain undeniable truth ; viz. that there are various lections in the copies of the very originall texts of the scripture which they call their rule , which though they say truly ( witnesse r. b. i. t : p. . & . ) that a rule and grid should be certain , which will not deceive , and that which is variable and alterable cannot be a persons rule , for it is the property of a rule to be invariable , and the same at all times ; the rules , measures , weights , dialls , squares , and what other things are made , if they be varyed they cease to be rules , for rules should be sized and certain , and confesse also with●us , that error minimus in principio fit major in medio maximus in fine , the least errour in a foundation makes a thing not fit to be a foundation , and so if the scripture be not intire to a little , so but vel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one jot or tittle fail , and every letter be not preserved by gods providence from being lost they must needs cry out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they have no footing nor foundation for their faith , and see no means of being delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all sacred truth , ( witnesse i.o. ep : p. . and much more of that sort in his book , as its more at large talkt with , in the second of my four exercitations ) and do confesse also the scripture is not only flexible and lyable to be changed easily at every criticks will , and the transcribers might and did fail and mistake , so that various sections are thence arisen , witnesse i. o. p. . and epist. p. , , , . where he tells how many wayes its easie for a critick to alter it ; yet ( to go round again and face about half way at least ) they plead the said ( confessedly ) variable and much varied text , to be the only fixt , firm , foundation , sure basis , stable standard , right rule , true touchstone , and such like ; yea ( and to go the whole round , and face quite about as they were ) that it is neither so varied nor variable , by reason of the loving care and aspect of god over the transcribers whom ( yet for all tha● , he would not guid ) infallibly , whose promise and providence which cannot fail , are engaged to preserve the hebrew & greek texts in their integrity to a tittle , but that its most fit to be own'd as the most perfect and only steady rule and foundation . moreover how entirely true soever the transcriptions are , the translations , which is all the rule the people have ( unlesse the priests prattle must be their rule ) are confessed to be most various , and abominably , and wofully corrupted ; witnesse i. o. who is scarce more busie to evince the entirenesse of his hebrew and greek text , then in evidencing the erroneousnesse of all translations , some of which that are most a client and of most account among most priests ( as the septuagint are gone off ( quoth i. o. ) from the original in a thousand places twice told . and yet ( to go round again ) the only infallible rule and sure word of god which they tell the poor people that they have , is the scripture text , as it is thus translated , for they to them either the infallibility of their own ministry , or of the holy chair , and any present guidance of any by the infallible spirit also . thus they run the rounds , trace to and fro , and dance up and down in their dark minds about the transcriptions and translations of their text , which they take to be their rule which transcriptions & translaions were they never so certain and entire by answering to the first originall copies , yet are not capable to be ( to all men ) any other then a lesbian rule or nose of wax , for as much as even where men have them as halfe the world has not they are liable to be wrested , and actually twisted twenty wayes by interpretours , whose expositions , senses and meanings , which are as many and various , as the thoughts , and conceits , and inventions , of the men are who comment upon them , must be the rule to such as can read them neither in hebrew , and greek , nor in their own mother-tongues neither : and whereas we ask them ( who tell us that scripture rightly interpreted only is the right rule of the faith by what rule shall we know whether the text be rightly interpreted yea or nay , and not rather wrested , and what is the rule according to which men are to interpret that rule of their faith , i.e. that scripture ( to go round again ) they tell us the analogy of faith : and when we query how it may be known that that faith is right according to which the scripture is ( if rightly ) to be interpreted ( to go round again ) they tell us the scripture rightly interpreted ; and when we ask them how it may be known assuredly , uncontroleably , infallibly , that the scripture is at all of god , and not a cunningly devised fable & invention of men ? they tell us by the testimony of the spirit , which ( say they is necessary & onely all-sufficient to that purpose , [ see the articles of the clergy of england about the scripture , and when we ask them but by what shall we try and find assuredly ] infallibly that that spirit is of god , and not a false one that tells us the scripture is of god ; ( to go round again ) they tell us by the scripture . moreover as when others deny his asserted authority , purity & integrity of the text , i. o. pleads it to the least tittle , and yet ( to go round again ) falls flatly to affirm the n●n-integrity of it himself , so when he dreams those poor deluded fanatical souls ( as he calls them call'd qua : who yet own it as usefull , helpfull , profitable , perfect to its own end through faith in the light to the man of god ) do deny the perfection of the scripture to its proper end , then i.o. strikes up in such strict strains of proving the living power , efficacy , perfection of the said scripture to its own proper end , which ( he sayes ) is the effecting and perfecting of mens eternall salvation without any help of the spirit and light within , stretching it out into such a singular absoluteness this way , as that which by it self alone is regula perfectissima , ex : . s. . ita perfecta , &c. omnibus numeru absoluta , ut nihil opus sit ulla alia revelatione per spiritum out lum●n internum , &c. as revelatio omni respectu perfecta , ex : . s. . potens servare animas , restituens onimam , potent a dei ad salutem , so that inania mutilia sunt alia omnia principia , &c. s. . which all is more fully inculcated at large in greek and english , p. , , , , . where he sayes its absolutely call'd the power of god , and that to its proper end , the rod of his power without other helps and advantages , that hath efficacy and power in it to save souls , living , effectual , sharper then any two edged sword , &c. as heb. . . and much more to that tune , adoring and extolling the external text with the honour and veneration that 's due to god , christ and his spirit , light , and living word in the heart alone . but when i.o. comes to quarrel with those poor deluded souls , the iews , for the self same adoring and glorying in their enjoyment of the naked letter , and seeking for life and salvation in the scriptures without the light and spirit within , which he and his fellow-scribes are found in , and condemned by the qua : for at this day , as they were by christ of old , and when he comes to quarrel with the qua : for asserting that doctrine of devills ( as they call it ) viz : attainablenesse of perfect freedom & salvation of the soul from sin in this life ; then i. o. runs and rambles round about and about again with as great an ardency as he danced the other way before , saying ex : . s. . falsissimum est sacram scripturam , dum in hoc mundo haeremus , respectu nostri totum suum finem obtinere aut obtinere posse ; it 's most false to say the scripture or doth , or can obtain its whole end in respect of us while we live here ; and if we ask where then does it do it in the world to come ? no neither , then cess●bit scripturae usu , &c. its use will then cease , it s accimmodated to our present state only , and if we ask does it do it at all ? yes ( quoth he or else it cant't be perfect , as i assert it to be , for ex : . s. . disciplinae cujusvis perfectio , &c. in english thus the perfection of every discipline stands in it's relation to its end , so as that is to be held perfect which can , and that imperfect which potis non est , cannot effect its own end , and the perfection of the scripture , can consist in no other thing then its sufficiency to its own proper end , which is the perfecting our eternall salvation , which salvation though the scripture be perfect , and does accomplish it , yet ( to go round again ) it can accomplish it neither in this world , nor that to come , and so not at all ; and ( to go round again ) is imperfect ; and further yet , that it s not so absolutely perfect nor effectually powerfull to this end ( of saving souls so as to need no other revelation by the spirit or light within , as he says 't is , witnesse its inefficacy to the iews , who are as busie in it to no urpose , as i. o. himself , of whom i. o. ( to go round again ) sayes ● . . thus the iews enjoy the letter of the scripture , yea they receive it sometimes with the honour and veneration due to god alone ; their possession of it is not accompanied with the manifestation of the spirit , will out which as we see in the instance of themselves , the word is a dead letter , of no efficacy for the good of souls , they have it for their further ruine , yea while they keep the scripture ( quoth i. o. of the iews , and i of i.o. and such literal christians as he is we shall never ment weapons out of their own armory for their destruction , like the philisti●e , they carry the weapon that will serve to cut off their own heads . thus , though i. o. who sayes elsewhere , the scripture is without need of other helps or advantages , or revelation by the spirit , or light within ( per se sola sufficiens ) living , absolute , full of power and efficacy to save souls , and yet rides the rounds so here , as to say that without the spirit , the word ( and that 's more then the qua : dare say , howbeit he means thereby but the scripture ) is a dead latter , of no efficacy to the good of souls , yet ( horrendo percussus scotomate ) he stayes not here , but having said the letter is dead , rather then the qua : he so hates , shall be owned by him in saying the self-same that himself sayes , hee 'l ride round back again to his first stage , that he may not seem to side with them , and therefore in ex. . s. . where i.o. brings in the qua : arguing strongly against the letters being the only most perfect rule , thus , scr●ptura est litera mortua , spiritus vivisicat , quis litera mortua nis● ipse sit mortuus , idhaerere , ve●it ? the scripture is a dead letter , the spirit quickens , who but he that 's dead will adhere to a dead letter as his rule ? i. o. brings in himself weakly answering thus , viz : ( to go round again , to the confounding of all his own former sayings that the letter is dead ) falsissima est ista assertio , scriptura est verbum dei quod vivum est et efficax neque uspiam litera esse mortua dicitur ; i.e. that 's a most false assertion , the scripture is that word of god which is living and efficacious , neither ( quoth he , trapezuntius like who forgot his own name , forgetting its the name of i.os. own imposing in the same book ) is the letter any where at all said to be dead . i. os. rounds , and contradictions to himselfe about the hebrew punctation . moreover as to hebrew ponts i. o. capers about , quavers up and down , and runs round like a blind horse in a mill ; one while asserting them coavo'us with the consonants , of such necessity that without the owning of these to be of divine original men are left ( which is as much as to say all the iewish church were so left from moses to ezra , if the points were added , but by ezra and his companions , and not by moses at the first writing ) unto great uncertainty in all translations and expositions of the scripture , p. . that who owns them not as so , and are otherwise minded then those who maintain the antiquity of the vowels and accents , so as that the hebrew language was written with them from the beginning , not only make doubtfull the authority of the scriptures , but even pluck it up by the roots , sith without the vowels and notes of distinction , it hath nothing firm and certain , p. . . that he that reads it without points ( as the church did before ezra , if ezra was the first author of them ) is as one that rides a horse without a bridle , that may be carried he knows not wither , whereupon relating the opinion of radulph cevall , to be that the hebrew language was plainly written with them from the beginning ; this mans judgement ( quoth i. o. ) is also mine ; yea p. , . he makes the foundation of all questionable upon the supposition of the novelty of the hebrew points , insinuating it as a just consequence which great and wise men suppose naturally , and necessarily flows from the opinion of the novelty of the vowels , and from the state of the hebrew language , and bible unpointed . otherwhiles notwithstanding , not knowing whether he had best assert them to be so ancient or no , he ( to go round again ) at first faces halse about , and leaves those , who held them up as high as moses , to prove it , saying only , he shall not oppose them that maintain the points coaevous with the letters , and yet after a while does no less in effect then face quite round about , and oppose them in the same sentence , by this confident assertion ; viz. i no wayes do●bt but , as we now enjoy them , we shall manifest that they were compleated by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the men of the great synagogue , ezra and his companions , p. , . and p. . pleading against such as hold them to be more novel , and of no higher invention , then from the tiberian missorites , on his own , and their behalf , who affirm ezra and his companions to have been the authors of the points , he sayes their sayings , whom he opposes , cast a probability that ezra laying aside the old letters because of their difficulty , together with the new introduced the points , to facilitate their use ; which , if so , then he leaves all ages of the jewish ●hurch before ezra , even the true saints , meerly for want of the hebrew vowels and accents , as men riding horses without bridles , who were carried they knew not whether , but so the saints then were not , and though the generality of the iews were , yet 't was not because they had no vowels , accents , and points to attend to as their guides ( though i am of i. os. mind , t is like they then , and till ezra's days had none ) but because they refused to be led by the light within , and guided by the holy spirit , which , for all their attendance to the letter , they ( as stephen said acts . ) had allwayes resisted . thus i. o. to the contradiction of his first ▪ selfe , is run round down the hill from moses as low as esdras about his punctilio's and hebrew points , but there he reckons to stand and keep his ground against all that come against him , to bring him and his ancient rich possession of pins and points any lower , or at least so low as the tiberian missorites : and here he fights like a man in a f●ight or frensie , left all tru●h be for ever lost , if he can't make it uncontroleably manifest that the points are better guides then may be expected from such bad men , as the tiberian massorites ; and first to make that good , to the begetting of an infallible , and divine faith of the points divine original , and not such a humane one as they must have , if from the massorites , that these charecters the hebrew points ( mark , as we have them ) are not to be ascribed to the massorites as their authors , he does not more make severall silly consequences , then he does himself confound them even as fast as he makes them . first ( not to meddle here with those many paedantick proofs and put offs , which i have elsewhere ( viz : in the exer : of my book call'd the country correcting the university , sufficiently already disproved ) he treats it out throw a great part of his two treatises with no other tool then that toy of tradition , or a taedious , vain , uncertain talking of some learned humanists , iews and christians , in proof of the points original before the massorites , against other some , full as well-studied as the other , and in an extravagant way argles against the arguments urged by not only learned iews , and iesuites , elias levita , bellarminus , &c. but also confessedly learned protestants , luther , zwinglius , prideaux , capelli●s against his pretended antiquity of the points from ezra , vagarying abroad unreasonably in the high road of forgeries and fables , then which as he sayes himself , p. . ) in nothing more hath the world been cheated , answering conjecture with no more then conjecture , laying about him like a thatcher , thawcking author upon author story upon story , tittle upon tattle , fancy upon fancy , humane fallible persuasion against humane fallible perswasion , and yet in his conclusion not only shooting a thousand years short of moses , from whom he would at first have drawn them , but also not adventuring to vent himself about their compleat being and beginning from ezra at any certainty , or clearly , but thus cloudily only , viz : let any man judge whether from such a heap of uncertainties any thing can arise that may be admitted to give testimony in the cause in hand , and so say i , either for or against , on one side or 'tother ; for quod utrobique incertum est , non est vel hinc vel illinc certum , what 's uncertain between two , concludes nothing either way for certain and so he falls as short of making it evident that they were first from ezra , as they do who say they were at first from the massorites or iewish rabbins : but suppose his argument from the tradition of some men , had been as 't is not ) from all men downwards ( nemine contradicente , none to vye , with the rest ) if he go about thereby to manifest , as he does , the undoubtednesse of his consequence and conclusion , yet he hath confounded it himself , if no other man had ever stirred against the businesse , whilest ( to go romnd again ) he tells us p. . the constant tradition of more then a thousand years , carried on by innumerable multitudes of men , great , wise , and sober from one generation to another , doth but set open the gates of hell for mahumetans as well , to prove the goodnesse of their alcoran , and p. , . because this tradition is pretended with great confidence , as a sure bottome & foundation for receiving of the scriptures ( & in effect so 't is ( say i by i. o. for the receiving the points from ezra , not the massorites , and that not without the tradition of as learned to vye with the reporters ) i shall ( quoth he ) a little further inquire into it . tradition , which is report of men , from those who are gone before may be either of all men of the world , or only of some of them , if of all , either their suffrages must be taken in some convention , or gathered up from the individuals , as we are able and have opportunity , if the first way of receiving them were possible , which is the utmost improvement that imagination can give the authority inquired after , yet every individual of men being a lyar , the whole convention must be of the same complexion , and so not be able to yield a sufficient basis to build a faith upon , cui non potest subesse falsum , that is infallible , and cannot possibly be deceived , much lesse is there any foundation for it in such a report , as is the emergency of the assertion of individuals . thus i. o. with the whirlwind of his own round about doctrine , layes all his long traditionary tales for the antiquity of his tittles on the ground again , with his own talk of the invalidity of tradition to beget such a divine , infallible faith , and certainty , as men must have about the scripture which he makes the rule , basis and foundation of all faith and certainty , in other things ; so diruit , aedificat , mutat quadrata rotundis . secondly i. o. treats out two more arguments for the antiquity and divinity of his tittles , whereof if no man should intermeddle to confute them ) the one confounds and utterly overturns the other . the first , whereby ( alas poor man he hampers himself ( and to as little effect ) most horribly to evince the points to be as high as ezra at least ( which salves not his assertion of the texts integrity however , were it granted him ) and not so novel an invention as of the tiberian massorites , is an extraordinary excentrick boundlesly bitter invective , as against the iewes in general , in their rancor against christ , wickedly attempting the restoration of their religion under barchochab and rabbi iuda , by the compiling of their talmuds , and much other inpertinent stuffe , and story , of which i. o. himself very truly confesses , p. in t●tidem verba , that its all nothing to his own purpose , so specially against the tiberian massorites in particular , the supposed authors of the hebrew pun ation for half a hundred pages together ; not caring how he vilifies them , so he may but bring men to beleeve so badly of them , as not to own them as the inventors of the vowels and accents , but ezra or some holy men guided therein at least by the infallible direction of the holy spirit : his argument , which he hath from dr. lightfoot , drawn close up out of p. , , , , . in form is on this wise , the pointing of the bible savours of the work of the holy spirit , not of wicked , blind , mad●mon , but the tiberian massorites were wicked , blind , mad men , possessors of the letter without the spirit , desperately engaged to oppose the truth , under gods curse , one of whose fundamentals was opposition to the gospel , feeding themselves with vain fables , * and mischievaus devices against the gospel , labouring to set up a new religion under the name of the old , in despite of god , so striving to wrestle it out with his curse to the utmost , men of a profound ignorance in all learning and knowledge , but what concerns their own dunghill traditions , and innumerable fopperies , addicted to such monstrous fopperies as their successors in after ages are asham'd of , and seek to palliate what they are able , idolaters , crafty , raging , serious in nothing , childish about serious things , how much deceitfulness , froth , venome , smoak , nothing in their disputations ; therefore , considering the importance of the hebrew vowels and accents to a right understanding of the scripture , we need clear , yea undeniable , unquestionable evidence and testimony [ and so ( say i ) there is as clear , and unquestionable given this way , as i o. who is concerned to give infallible proof his way , gives to the contrary ] to prove the rise and spring of the points to be from these men , that is , the tiberian massorites . this is one of i. os. arguments , which how it lacks little confutation by any thing , but it s own apparent folly and evident weaknesse and blindnesse , a child may see : it intimates as if wicked men could not possibly find out and affix such a thing as the figure of accents , vowels and points , to facilitate to themselves the reading of any character whatsoever , as if it must be some more then or●inary divine and supernatural work to devise the shape of the hebrew vowels , more then 't is for the greek , or english , or others to devise theirs ; whereas , if i. o. had not for hast run himself out of the remembrance of things that are so obvious and ordinary that none but ignoramus and trapezuntius himself could easily forget them , what more common and frequent then for men that are ignorant and enmity against god to have the skill and faculty of inventing not only tittles , accents , points and vowels , but also letters , consonants , and characters , figures , and those of diverse sorts and shapes , long and short hand to expresse themselves by in writing and printing in their respective native languages : i trow who invented 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and our a e i o u , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , at oi eu ou , and the several kinds of figures for different sounds , and what nation hath not some of that wit that england hath so much of , as to find out many sorts of chirography and brachography for their own conveniences ? and who invented first that so great , so skilful , so useful and eminent work of typography it selfe , & so many exact wayes of cutting and setting , and stamping so many different characters of all languages ? might it not be done by men who heeded not the inspirations of the spirit ? by men moved meerly with love of mony , and hope of gain ? in which way the bible comes out lyable to the common fate of all other books , as to matter of falsification by misprinting ? how many differing characters and sorts and sizes of letters , of greek , hebrew , english are , and have our bibles themselves been written and printed in ? and doth not i. o. himself p. . tell us of an universal character attempted by diverse , and ready to be brought forth by his dr. wilkz ward , whereby to expresse all his apert , simple , and double sounds , vowels and dipthongs , which i. o. says , will doubtlesse give universal satisfaction to learned and prudent men , when he shall communicate his thoughts on it ? and yet i. o. denyes wilkins ward , or any man else in these dayes to be inspired or guided by the infallible spirit . how worthlesse and frivolous then ? what childishnesse , lightnesse ? what froth , smoake , nothing are the thoughts of i. o. and his co-conjecturor dr. lightfoot , whom he there cites , p. . who can scarce beleeve it possible that the points should hominem sapere , proceed from such a school as the tiberian university , or savour of the work of any humanists or wicked men , or of any other then the spirit of god ? but if this argument of i. o. had any such force in it as were worth reselling ( as indeed it hath not ) yet , if we should say nothing to it . i. o. backs it with another so strongly , that he breaks the very back of this , so that it can bear nothing of the burden he layes on it , nor be of the least import , whilest after all his talk of the wickednesse of these men , in proof of their unfitnesse and unlikelinesse to be the authors of such a businesse as the points , least this should fail ( to go round again still ) he adds this as another argument thereof , viz : the likelinesse of it that there were never any such men as these massorites in the world at all . so odde and antick is i. os. extream eagernesse in driving on his design against them that talk of the tiberians , as the authors of his superlatively prized points , that rather then any should imagine those men to have invented them , he streins and stretches his twatling strings so far , as not to deny , but own , ●nd tell us . that there was an university and school of such tiberians , and so describes the men who and what they were , and when they liv'd ( viz : ) after the finishing of the last talmud , p. , . only that they were men so , and so , and so ill mannered and qualified , idolate●s , magicians , &c. and what not that 's evill ? as not likely to be inventers of so rare a businesse as vowels and accents . secondly , lest all this should not be of force enough , next by a denyall of it to fright souls into a faith and fancy that there were never any such men in the world at all ; to which purpose he uses such suppositive , doubtful & negative expressions concerning it , as whereby to cause it to become questionable and render it doubtfull whether there ever were any such , or nay , men they were ( quoth he ) ( if any such were ) who were so and so , ● . . and . of all the fables that are in the talmud , i know no●e more incredible than this story ( quoth he ) that men who cannot b●y any story [ mark , he sayes , it appears not by any story there were such , and yet in the very line above sayes 't is a story in the talmud ; was there ever any man found so self - confounding in a treatise as● i. o. and so ready in this work of running the rounds ? ] or other record be made to appear that they ever were in rerum natura , not observed , not taken notice of by any learned man , iew or christian , should find out so great , so excellent a work . to which ( say i ) that though of all the contradictions that i. o. gives to himself , this is not the first , nor greatest , nor clearest , to say as he does p. . & . that learned dr. lightfoot observes and takes notice of the university and school at tiberias , and of the gre●t doctors among the tiberians by name out of the talmud ( viz : ) r. iuda , r. chamina , r. chsija barba , r. iochannan , r. ionathan and the rest of the r●bbins , gemarists , and m●ssorites , of whom i. o. sayes the jewes generally beleeve not only that there were such men , but also that the points had a reviving by them according to the observation and notice of r. azarias , and yet p. . to say , as he does , that it cannot be made to appear by any story or other record , that ever there were such , and that they are unobserved , and not taken notice of by any learned man , iew or christian ; yet of all the ridiculous passages that are in the talmudical treatise of i. o. this is not the least not to say the most incredible ) that men of whom it cannot by any story or other record be made to appear that they ever were in rerum natura , should according to , or by i. os. strange story of them , be made to appear to any reasonable man to be idolaters , magicians , wicked , blind and mad men , &c. surely they must first appear and be observed to be in rerum naturâ , before they can to or by any ( save such blind seers as can see nothing at all better then they can see things as they are ) appear & be observed , much more described by name to be in natura hominum improborū , and if any man beleeve with i. o. that those men can appear to him to be wicked men , &c. in esse cognoscibili , who cannot be made to appear at all that they ever were at all in essereali ; i l'e give them leave to upraid me with [ o thou of little faith , wherefore dost thou doubt it ? ] for my beleevable faculty is indeed too narrow to entertain , or contain that self gainsaying story for a truth : credat apella : he that can beleeve it let him , i am an infidel as to that foolish figment , and if these two contrary tales can be both true , my reason can't reach the reason of these rabbinical-riddles . but among the numerous odd passages that passe from i. o. in this point about the proof of the points antiquity , that which is yet more observable , as to my present purpose is , that i. o , when he hath roled sysiphus his stone a great while , pervenire ad summum , to get up to the top , to prove the pedigree of his punctation as high as moses if it might be , if not , from ezra at least , seeing he could not hold it up in the utmost hight , nor carry it clearly into a coaevousnesse with the scripture , according to the strictnesse of his position , condescends to come down by the rounds of his ladder half way , first to the dayes of ezra , and in the prosecution of his undertaking to manifest it ( as at first he makes no doubt to do ) that they were compleated by ezra and his companions , finding himself uncapable to carry the matter , against such as derive their descent from the iudaical rabbins , or tiberian maslorites , clearly up so high as ezra , but only cloudily by foisting , flinging , and casting out at least but forgery against forgery , fable against fable , and a heap of uncertainties against the heap of uncertainties of others , for so he will needs call the most cogent and more then probable evidences of all his confessedly learned antagonists , elias , capellus , luther , prideaux , &c. p. . . . though his own pleas , considerations , repulses and replyes , are in the eyes of all impartial ones ( suppose i should say ( but as ) 't were enough , ad hominem , to impeach his position of utter falshood , though i might say more ) uncertain , at last he sinks down by the rounds as low as the massorites dayes , and so per force by little and little yeilds up as far as is demanded from him , assenting with azarias p. . that the iews generally beleeve these points to have been from moses , at least from ezra , not denying that the use and knowledge of them , received a great reviving by the gemarists and massorites , when they had been much dissused , and p. . with the same azarias ascribing them as to their virtue and force , to moses , or god on mount-sinai , as to their figure and character , to ezra , as to the restauration of their use , unto the massorites , in which he hath come quite round with much ado , and granted enough to prejudice his own position , to the utter overthrow of the truth thereof , for as to the virtue and force , none can deny them to be coaevous with the hebrew language it selfe , but 't is the figure and character only the question is about , and that is yeelded to be but from ezra , and since ezra to have been much dissused , but to have received their great reviving and restoration to the use they now stand in ( which is the thing pleaded for against i. o. from the massorites , and so howbeit i. o. makes no doubt , p. . but to manifest it that they were ( as we now enjoy them ) compleated by ezra and his companions , yet instead thereof he hath confessed in effect that ( as we now enjoy them , since last dissused ) they were revived , restored , and compleated by the massorites , whom he disclaims as having any hand in them . there remain sundry more ●ontradictions and rounds i. o. runs in about the points , of which for a tast take one more here ( though touched on elsewhere ) and then ( sar aquod suffocat ) as more then enough from i. o. so enough from me , as to that point of the hebrew punctation , p. . i shall manifest ( quoth i. o. ) that its fit they , i.e. the points , should be all taken out of the w●y , if they have the original assigned to them by the prolegomena , i.e. from the massorites ; yet p. . grant ( quoth i. o. ) the points to have the original pretended ; yet ( to go round again ) they deserve all regard and are of singular use for the right understanding of the scripture , so that it s not lawfull to depart from them without urgent necessity , &c. yet p. . ( to go round again , and face quite about as ye were i professe ( quoth i. o. ) if i could be throwly convinced that the present hebrew punctation were the figment and invention of those men , i.e. the massorites , i should labour to the utmost , to have it utterly taken away out of the bible , nor should i in its present station make use of it any more , to have it placed in the bible as so great a part of the word of god is not tolerable . contradictions and rounds of i. o. about the manner of the first giving out of the scripture . p. . . the word , the scriptures ( quoth i. o. ) come forth ( mark ) unto us from god , without the least mixture or interveniency of any medium obnoxious to fallibillity ( as is the wisdome , truth , integrity , knowledge , memory of the best of all men ( or capable of giving change , or alteration to the least iota or syllable : yet . p. . ( to go round again ) we live ( quoth i. o. ) many yeares from the last person who received any part of the scripture from god , & have not received it immediately from god. so p. , speaking of the first pen men of the scripture , their tongue ( quoth i.o. ) in what they spake , or their hand in what they wrote , was no more at their own disposall , then the pen is in the hand of an expert writer . yet p. . ( to go round againe ) their mind ( quoth i. o. ) and understanding was used in the choyce of words , for they did use 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 words of choyce . yet ex. . s. . verba disposita sunt per spiritum sanctum , neqt , ad exprimendum sensum quem ipsi de mente et voluntate den conceperunt ingenio ac arbitrio ipsorum scriptorum sunt permissa aut relicta ( to go round about as ye were ) the words were at the disposall of the holy spirit , neither to expresse the sense they conceived of the mind and will of god , were they left to the dispose , arbitriment , will , or choyce of the writers themselves : finally , as i. o. so abundantly ( as is above shewed ) contradicts and confounds himself in many matters about the scriptures , or outward text , so about the sence and meaning of one text of the scripture , wherein they all disagree with the qua : i. o●hand , like ishmaels , is against all his fellows hands & every of his fellow fighters hands ( whom i have here to do with , who from the same text sence against the quakers ) is against him to the confounding of him : which text is ioh. . . where the true light is said to enlighten every man coming into the world ; for howbeit i. o. cloudily concludes with all the other three , viz. t.d. r.b. i.t. in concluding and crouding that most universall terme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , every man , within the little compasse and narrow corner of his wheel in a wheel , i. e. the elect men only , saying synagogically with the rest , hoc est syncategorema istud omnis , non absolute sed relate ad electos dicitur , this is the consignification of that term [ all ] it s meant not absolutely , but relatively to the elect ; yet when he sayes non dicitur christum illuminare omnem hominent venientem in mundum , sed quod ipse veniens in mundum omnem hominem illuminat , christ is not said to enlighten every man that comes into the world , but that becoming into the world lighteneth every man , and that this is the sence of those words ( the falsenesse & silliness of which sence , & the insufficiency & nothingness of it also to serve his turn against the qua : ( if granted him ) i have shewed in the book it self , to which this is but an appendix ) here not only each of his three friends forsake him ( for t.d. himself among all his many meanings meddles not with this ) but two of them viz. i.t. and r.b. who backs i.ts. book , make bold to fight against him for it as well as the qua. do ; witnesse their words , p. , . there is a doubt whether it should be read thus , that was the true light coming into the world , which inlightneth every man , by a trajection , or ( as ours read it as the words are placed ) that was the true light which inlightneth every men which cometh into the world. grotius after cyrill , and austin and some others ( see how the divines are divided , and the founders confounded among themselves ) likes the former as best ; but first such trajection disordering the words , . the phrase being as fitly interpreted of birth as of appearing as a teacher , i rather chuse the reading of our translators , and p. . they tell us over again how , coming into the world here is related to every man coming , and not to christs coming into it , and how they before gave reasons against i. os. sence . so having been walking the rounds with these men to give the world a review of the riddles they are wrapt in , and the manifold contradictions they are by the network of their own hands snared , catcht and tangled in about their letter , till i am come with them to that main text at which they leave me , because it talks so plainly of the true light which they love not , and i leave them to dance about still in the darknesse of their own divinations ; i proceed ( in the light in which i see them , though they , being out of it , see not themselves ) to open briefly to all people , who love not to live with them rather in their darknesse , then in christs light , the mist of darknesss , wherein they mope about , and dance the rounds in their discourses about the light , in their fiery fluttering against which , the wicked now is as he ever was , snared in the work of his own hands , psal. : . higgaion , selah , consider and note it . contradictions , absurdities , and rounds concerning the light in the conscience , which the qua : testifie to . as concerning the true light or gift of gods grace in every man , the four men aforesaid do ( as all their fellowes do uno ore ) babble somwhat about it , and bear witnesse either for or against it , but each mans witness agrees no better together within it self , then that they give about the other matters abovesaid . somtimes they call it light , truly really , naturally and properly so , and not metaphorically , nor by way of allusion to what is so : witnesse i. o. p. . it is spirituall , morall , intellectuall light that hath the preheminence as to a participation of the nature and properties of light. otherwhiles the same who excluded it from the name of metaphoricall , by that of naturall and proper ( to go round again ) do conclude it to be metaphoricall , as in opposition & contradistinction to both naturall and proper ; witnesse i. o. who confounds his own foresaid saying , p. . with another division ex. . s. , , , , , &c. where under that same term of metaphoricall he distinguishes that light he calls morall , spiritual , intellectuall ( as respecting and exercising mens minds whether in matters morall , civill or spirituall ) from that which respects bodily sight , which he call'd naturall and proper . somtimes they call this very light , whereby duties and divine things are discerned , universall and common to all ( as the qua ; do i. e. in some measure , though not to all in the same ) but when so , then no other but naturall , as in opposition to supernaturall and spirituall ; witnesse t.d. p. . pamp . naturall and supernaturall light are two , an i though all have the one , yet few the other , and i. o. ex. s. . lumen internum omnibus commune naturale est , &c. the light within common to all is naturall , and to be called so , s. . if this light that is common be not naturall , the very intellect is not naturall . so s. . concessimus reliquias primavae lucis esse in omnibus , sed eas esse spirituales id pernegamus , some relicks of the primitive light we grant to be in all , but deny these to be spirituall : nihil non naturale , nihil spirituale communicatum &c. nothing but what 's naturall , nothing that 's spirituall is common or communicated to all : so also r. bax. i. tom. a naturall light from christ is yielded to be in every man , &c. pag. . otherwhiles this very universall light in all which before was said to be not supernaturall or spirituall , but meerly naturall ( to go round again ) is by these men yielded to be at least more then naturall , and so no lesse ( according to t. ds. division of light into two ) then supernaturall and spirituall : witnesse ( against themselves ) r.b. i.t. p. . it can hardly be avouched that that knowledge in morality and divinity which they ( i. e. people that never had the law nor gospell made known to them as the jewes and christians have had ) attained to , was by meer light of nature , and in baxters epistle , p. . he tells us of a common supernaturall light given to the unsanctified . i might also call in iohn horn , and the two thomas moores that push with him against the truth , as witnesses of the same confusion that is among all the priests in this matter , who in their book stiled , a fuller discovery , &c. p. . affirm the light wherewith christ lighteth every man is both naturall and spirituall ; but as my businesse lyes mainly with the other four men ; so george whitehead hath sufficienly thrust down the vain thoughts already of those three , in his book stil'd the hee goats horn broken : so i let them passe . witnesse also t. d. who , though he ( together with i.o. p. . nor doth it in the least impair this self evidencing efficacy of the scripture that it is a morall and spirituall not a naturall light ) owns the scripture , specially the light in the scripture , or holy matter contained in the scripture to be a morall , spirituall , supernaturall , and not a naturall rule or light , yet affirms it to be common or universall , i. e. in some measure in the hearts of all , even the very heathen , p. . . pamp . the matter contained in the scripture ( quoth he ) is a rule to all men ( so far as t is revealed to them ) and was so before 't was put into writing , and so much of it as is written upon the hearts of the heathens is a rule to them , rom. . . thus t. d. who before made the one light to be two , viz. naturall and supernaturall , here ( to go round again ) makes that light which is in the scriptures and in the heathens hearts , rom. . . truly one and the same , and no lesse then supernaturall and spirituall : witnesse also i. o. who calls the light often naturall , yet ( to go round again ) ex. . s. . splits this one light , which they all somtimes falsly call no more then naturall , into a light which is both naturall , civill , supernaturall and spirituall , as it were all at once : this light ( quoth he ) or faculty of understanding ( so he foolishly calls it ) splits it self into meerly naturall , and civill , and supernaturall , i. e. spirituall which discerns spirituall matters , and all things in order to the last end , and this inward spirituall light ( quoth he ) or faculty of understanding spirituall things spiritually is various , &c. where note how i. o. ( falsely ) calls the light no other then the faculty of understanding which he calls elsewhere ( truly enough ) but naturall and yet ( to go round again ) calls the very faculty of understanding which is common to all men , as men , by the title of this inward spirituall light which discerns spirituell things and that spiritually , in order to the supernaturall and ultimate end , i. e. salvation . and this inward spirituall light common to all that discerns spirituall things spiritually in order to that ultimate end , i. o. sayes is various too , and very well he may ( if it may be divided again into those two severall sorts into which i.o. sub-splits it ) for whereas here he calls this light in the conscience which the qua. call to ) lumen internum spirituale &c. an inward spirituall light , which discerns spirituall things spiritually in order to the supernaturall , spirituall and ultimate end : yet a little lower , viz. s. . ( to go round again ) he calls it meer darknesse it self , by which no divine saving thing can be seen ; witnesse his words , * this light within common to all , however attended to , is ( quoth he ) in no respect saving , but in all divine matters , so far as to the ultimate end , meer darknesse and blindnesse : one while again they deny this light to be the visive ( i.e. intellective ) faculty or eye of the soul , or to be given for any such end , as so much as to remove the defect of the visive faculty : witnesse i. o p. . light will not remove the defect of the visive faculty : light is not eyes . otherwhiles ( to go round again ) it is the very visive faculty as ex. . s. . this light or faculty of understanding , which is meerly naturall , &c. this inward spirituall light or faculty of understanding spirituall things spiritually , &c. so s. . . lux quae proprie mentem respicit seu facultas illa intelligendi est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; oculus , acies mentis , the light which properly respects the mind , or the faculty of the understanding , is the sight , the visive force , the very eye of the mind . one while they tell us that its true among the gentile philosophers there was light that guided well , and that in the law there was light , and that no light that is truly such ( though dimene and imperfect , as ( say they ) that of the philosophers and the law was ) is to be rejected , witnesse r.b. i.t. p. . otherwhiles some light , yea even the philosophers light , which led them well ( as they say asore ) in some , did in most things lead men into crooked and dangerous wayes : therefore , unlesse men love , and it be best to be led into crooked and dangerous wayes ( to go round again to be rejected : witnesse against themselves , r.b. & i. t in the self same page , the next line but one after the other , witnesse also i.o. against them both , who ex . s. . sayes of the spirit and light within the qua : calls to ( among other things that he calls incerta , periculosa , inutilia minime necessaria , rejicienda , atque detestanda ) that they are to be both rejected and detested . thus when they begin of their own accord among their own supposed friends somtimes , these men commend and extoll , and call men to heed this light in the conscience , which the qua : call to , so eminently that the qua : scarce need more words to recommend it to men in , as to its excellency , divinity , usefullnesse , profitablenesse , needfullnesse , and necessity to be heeded and obeyed , then the same which our divines themselves , who hate it , do seem to set it out in . otherwhiles , that is , when any qua ; begin to call men to it , to commend and extoll it among their parish people ( though in their own forms of speech about it ) and when the qua : desire them , as they will prove themselves true ministers of christ , with paul to labour to turn all men to the light within themselves ; then ( to go round again ) either they 'l be silent , or ( if they sing anything at all concerning it ) sing out no more so loudly as before to the praise and glory of it , but rathe ( what they are able , they sing their old new song , to the turncoats tune of truth turned out of doores ) in way of dispraise and disparagement and utter detestation of it to the utmost , as if t were the vilest kind of canting in the whole world to utter one word in order to the begetting of any people into so much as any measure of any good opinion at all of a light within , so that i may truly say of these seers as the poet once of one of caesars singers : omnibus hoc vitium est cantoribus inter amicos , vt nunquam inducunt animum cantare rogati , injussi nunquam desistunt , &c. to shew the world how sepharically these ministers sing out the high praises of the light of christ , the light of the world , the light in the conscience , when they please to begin of themselves ▪ and ( to go round again ) how symphonically they set it at their heels , in opposition to the qua : rather then the qua : shall prevail with them to say any thing of it that is any better then nought , i shall hereunder shew both their voluntary calls to , and commendations of , & their unjustly occasioned cautions about & condemnations of this light of christ in the conscience of men , when the qua : commend and call to it , and set the one of these immediately under the other , only premising this , that whether they speak of the light which themselves call christ , which the letter holds sorth and testifies to , or the light wherewith god shines and shews his will and mind in some measure in the hearts and minds of all men , even heathen philosophers or others , which we call christs light , though they do not we mean ( however they divide these ) no other but that one law of god which the letter is the copy of , which is spirituall , holy , just and good , which t. d. confesses to be the heathens rule so far as is written in their hearts . christ the light of the world , and his light in the heart , which the scripture testifies of abundantly , & not any such thing as mans own thoughts , wisdome , imaginations , inventions , &c. which the heathen became vain in , rom , . which the qua : call all men out of , and the divines , that lead men by no other are themselves yet led by more then any , steering by nothing but their own many minds and meanings on the scripture , &c. some few calls to , and commendations of the light , with cautions to take heed to it , collected out of many more that are in r. b. and i. t. his book . p. . it concerns us , ( say they ) to take heed how we dote on our own reason , or the most exact writers of morality , and neglect the light which christ hath brought into the world : let us be wise so to use candles as not to burn day-light , that we so make use of all the reason & humane wisdome and virtue we have our selves , or discern in others writings or examples that yet we chiefly eye and follow the grand light , the sun of righteousness , the lord jesus , learning him by studying the great counsell of god , which he revealed and denying our selves take up our crosse and follow him as his disciples ; christ is to be chosen and followed as our light : an exhortation to use christ as our light , that was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world ; be induced to imbrace and follow the lord christ as the great light of the world , besides the evidence out of scripture to prove him to be sent from god a light into the world &c. his sayings and doings do amply confirm it . and p. . they go on thus ; though the jewes contradicted and blasphemed , the romane emperour raged , lucian jeered , libanism wrangled , iulian calumniated , papists , corrupt gnosticks , hereticks , fanaticks , quakers , [ here they abominably bely the truth , for the quakers call all and only to the light of christ ] adulterate and cloud the truth of christ , they do but pisse against the sun , the light of christs doctrine , the truth of the gospell doth and will shine forth , nor can all the cavills ( say they ) of moderne atheists , or the dust raised by new phantasticks , take away the brightnesse of christs light , or hinder its enlightning others then themselves , and shall we after all the arguments given of christs being the true light , follow after ignes fatuos , [ who these be but that fraternity , who would have men follow their fancies , and not christs light in the conscience , which is that the quakers call to , i know not ] what reall comfort or spirituall help to holinesse or heavenly directions do they give to lead men to god , better then christ hath done ? may you not discern a vain glorious spirit , a self-seeking , proud , carnall spirit in them , what do their censures of others shew , but a mind to extoll themselves ? their affected speech , looks , carriage , but a desire to hide their falshood ? what do all the devices of iesuits , popes , and their agents tend to but either by force or subtlety to set up the monstrous powers of the man of sin , and their own domineerlng over mens consciences underhim ? [ ●asenus recte quidem sed et etiam de te fabula o parochialis sacerdos ] what is in their conclave but pollicy ? in their counsell but deceit ? in their iesuists and casuists but jugglihg ? shall we go after such masters and leave christ ? remember we that one is our master , even christ ; when any shall sollicit us not to adhere to christ as our teacher , reject them : christ hath warned you , [ say they , and so say i too as concerning any that lead forth from his light within therefore , saith he , go not forth after them , nor follow them ] if any say low here is christ or there [ and so do all priests and professors , and their teachers in their sundry forms and outward observations , in which they look for the kingdome which comes not in them ] believe it not . we will not venture our lives upon mountebanks , and will we our souls upon deceivers ? shall we follow our own conceits , which often prove foolish , and neglect christs doctrine [ which say we still is his teaching light and counsell in the conscience ] which alwayes proves wise and safe ? no , no , let us answer as peter , lord , to whom shall we go ? thou hast the words of eternall life . alas , what can we expect but if we follow blind leaders , as all are that teach the things of god otherwise then christ and his apostles did [ who , say i , called all along to walk in the light within ] we should fall with them into the ditch , into everlasting perdition ? on the otherside there is so much plain and clear light in christs doctrine as will guide our feet in the way of peace ; away then with all such obtruded insinuating teachers as indeavour to hide from us the light of christ shining in his doctrine , recorded in scripture ; let 's say none but christ , none but christ , that christ which preached , dyed at ierusalem , that word of his which is written in my bible [ of which the bible testifies say i , that its near in the heart to heare and do it ] shall be my light : to the testimony of jesus [ which sayes tho scripture is the spirit of prophecy , the sure word of prophecy , that as a light shineth in the dark place of the heart , and is to be taken heed to ] to his everlasting gospell i stick . so bixt . ep. p. . ( speaking of the qua : ) do they affirm that all men have the light of reason ? who denyeth it of any but idiots and infants ? do they maintain that this light is from iesus christ , both as the authour and restorer of nature ? and by whom among us is this denyed ? do they say that repaired or reprived nature may be fitly called grace ? about this also we have no mind to quarrell with them , so they will not exclude supernaturall grace thereby ( as we do not , but hereby conclude it ) do they hold that common supernaturall light is given to many ( at least ) of the unsanctified , &c. and who contradicteth them in this ? do they hold that as the sun is appointed in nature to be the light of every man that cometh into the world , though shutting our eyes may exclude it ; so christ is by office the sun in the world of grace , giving men actually all the gracious light they have , being sufficient himself to enlighten all , and giving them an illuminating word , which is sufficient in its own kind to do its own part , though many are blind , and for their sin are deprived of the communication of this light ? why all this we maintain as well as they : do they say that all this light ( within us and without us ) is to be hearkened to and obeyed ? why what man did they ever speak with that 's a christian ; [ no christians indeed say i , but too many antichristians ] that denyeth it ? [ see what a deal of the quakers doctrine concerning learning only at christs light is here uttered by these men r.b. i.t. who yet hate the self same doctrine at their hearts when the quakers teach it ; also in many other places they teach much more to the same purpose ; putting men on to attendance to the light , yea even the light within every man , as p. , . ] this light usefull for two ends ; first , to restrain men from excesse of sin , &c. as he gave a law to the iewes because of transgression , to restrain them or abate punishments ; so to other people he gave a law in themselves to prevent the extirpation of the nations by bridling them in their lusts , thorow conscience of sin and fear of punishment . secondly , besides this god hath another end , that they might be inexcusable who sinned against the light in them , and god justified in his sentence and judgment upon them . [ observe how this light within is owned by them as the law of god , which t.d. affirming the work of the law only to be there , yet denyes to be in the heathens hearts , to the contradiction of these men and of himself also in that other plaee , p. . . pamp . where ( to go round again ) he confesses much of the holy matter of the scripture to be written upon the hearts of the heathens , and that to be their rule ) i say as the law of god which is spirituall , holy , just and good , and to be obeyed , for else transgression of it could not be sin deserving judgment , for sin is no other then the transgression of the law. ] so p. . . they go on thus , if the light shine into thy soul from christ so as any convictions or discoveryes of truth from christ get into thee , [ and some convictions they confesse all hav● by the light within ] take heed thou hold it not in unrighteousnesse , nor seek to quench it , rom. . . wrath to all that hold truth in unrighteousnesse , when lust imprisons light , no entrance for the light of christ into that soul , there must be a love of the light : it s the greatest sign of a man willfully evill , when he hates the light ; and it s a good sign of a man truly good , when he can delight in that light ( mork ) which discovers his own euills , [ what light is that which discovers a mans own evills but the light within ? the letter without doth de jure only , the light within doth de facto discover mens own evill ] christ hath determined this to be the great condemnation , that men love darknesse rather then light [ or else the heathen could not be condemned , say i , who have and yet hate the light within , for they have no letter without ] for that 's the sign they side with the prince of darknesse , and men that do truth come to the light that their deeds may be manifest , &c. the more light is rejected , the more purely voluntary any sin is , when men are willingly ignorant , they are incurably evill , &c. each person is to make their use of the light within him , so far as it is light and usefull . certainly it concerns every man so far as to look to the light within him , ( mark ) that he do not , as t is said of some , job . . rebell against the light , [ which text in iob i. o. interprets of the letter , but i. t. to the confutation of i. o. ( truly with us ) of the common light within men ] a mens conscience is so far a law to him , that though it cannot of it self justifie [ which is contrary to rom. . which sayes their inward thought as well excuses the heathen when they do well , as accuses when they do ill , and excusation and justification , or to excuse , clear , justifie are all one ] yet it may condemn him : so p , . they go on thus , god hath imprinted in all , even the most barbarous people , some relique of light , though in some it is so small [ that may be say we , for all have not the same , but all some measure of gods light , which these men somtimes call darknesse , delusive and dangerous , and degrees vary not the nature of the case ] that it can hardly be perceived whether there be any sense of sin or wrath , of duty or reward , of god or devill , heaven or hell. secondly , some people that never had the gospell nor the law made known to them as the jewes and christians have had , yet have attained to so much knowledge and practice of morall duties [ mark , morall duties are the main things of the law , and required in the morall law , viz. to do as we would be done by , which faith christ is the law and prophets , math. . the sum , substance , and upshot of all , and more then all offering and sacrifice , so that the iews failing in these weightiar matters , viz. iudgment , mercy , faith , &c. all outward oblations and observations were abhorred ] that in some acts of righteousnesse , temperance , chastity , fidelity , and such vertues they have equallized at least in respect of their outward demeanour toward men , if not exceeded not only iewes [ who had the scripture , as our scribes have , and search , as much in it ] but also [ the more shame for the most of you filthy , fruitlesse , faithlesse christians the while , whom very heathens will therefore judge ] the most christians , thirdly , and in the knowledge of god , though therein they were most defective , yet they attained to so much knowledge and right apprehension of him , as enabled them to correct the vulgar errours concerning god. [ see how far beyond our vulgar christians , and very christian clergy men , that have the letter to boast , talk & trade on , the light within hath led the very ethnicks that have heeded it , by these mens own confession ; but they go on yet further preaching up the light with the qua : thus , p. . it will concern those who own christ as their light , to judge themselves and their wayes by his light : [ this act of self judgment is within faith i.o. seconding that morall instinct of good and evill , that is imprinted by god on the conscience from the innate light therein ] it is the great benefit of the light that it doth make manifest , eph. . . thus by the light of christ the evill of our wayes is reproved , the wayes of god approved : now this is no small benefit to have the light to discern our errors , which without light from christ we should never have understood , a wise christian will be often judging himself by the light of the law , discovering his transgressions [ that m●st needs be the law in the conscience which , de facto , shewes every mans own sins to himselfe ] it will be needfull not only to use the light of christ to judge our selves by , but also to order our actions by . i am the light of the world , saith christ , he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness . there cannot be unsafe walking by christs light , there is no danger when christ our light goes before , walk in the light saith christ , while ye have the light , lest darknesse come upon you : how many millions are there of souls perplexed and tortured all their life with fears and doubts for want of walking by the light of christ in scripture [ which , say i , is that in the conscience which the scripture mainly calls to ] and chusing rather to walk by a light and sparks of their own kindling [ alias their own wisdome , conceits , sences and meanings on the scripture , traditions in worship , and such like which they call light ] which in the end either goes quite out , or burns so dim as to leave them in darknesse of spirit and horror of conscience ; and no marveile since such as neglect the word preached [ which is that word of faith i.e. which men are to beleeve in unto life , which the scripture testifies , and the apostles preached to be nigh in mens hearts to heave and do it ] should follow the mares of humane reason , the examples , customes , and dictates of men , and in conclusion ly down in sorrow , isa. . . such foolish fires will lead to nothing but bogs and precipices , but christ the true light when his gospell is followed ( which is the light in the heart , cor ; . , . ) guides the feet of men into the way of peace : the light of christ is to be used as our weapons or tools to defend ourselves , or to work with , let us put off the works of darknesse , and put on the armour of light , the truth is light , is the chiefest instrument for safety and worke , if a man be without light he can neither defend himself nor offend an enemy ; he that would make use of christs light must be armed with his doctrine ; he that would improve the light , must be a doing the businesse which the word of christ directs him to , and to that end it ( mark ) must dwell richly in him . make use of the light of christ for thy comfort and rejoycing ; it is it which removes doubts , griefs , fears , despair in life or death . oh how sweetly might men live , how comfortably might they dye , if they did make use of it : [ thus highly do these two men r.b. i.t. speake of the light of christ within , which the qua : preach : yea that in the very heathen , though they oft call it naturall , yet they recommend it as that which told the truth to the heathen , which they holding in unrighteousnesse were under wrath , and without excuse before god , because they glorified him not as god , but were fill'd with unrighteousnesse , and did the things which by that of god in them they knew judgment was due to , and that they were worthy of wrath . ] ignorance of the law being not to be pleaded by them , ( say they ) who sin against the innate light of their own spirits , for as much as that fact must needs be voluntary which is done against the knowledge and judgment of a mans own conscience ; and yet somtimes ( to go round again ) they tell us that when their saints sin through infirmity only ( as t. d. judges david did when he was guilty of murder and adultery ) which when they doe they act against the knowledge and judgment of their own consciences , their facts are not voluntary , but altogether , yea utterly against their wills : yea p. . they seem to judge themselves much belyed by the qua. for denying the light within , and set themselves to vindicate themselves from that as a false aspersion , as if they were men that do truly own the light within as much as any , yea they there make a use of application of their doctrine about the light that enlightneth every man that cometh into the world , to justifie themselves against the qua : as owners and honourers of the light within , and to warn men that they act not against their light within , to this purpose ] we may infer ( say they ) a plea for our selves against the unjust accusations of the qua : who use to charge publick preachers with denying the light within each man , whereas such light is not at all denyed by them ; each person is to make use of the light within , that he do not rebell against the light , a mans own conscience is a law to him , &c. [ this and much more do these men , when they are pleased to begin of themselves confesse to the excellent usefullnesse and sing out to the praise of the light of god within each man , but if the qua : fall in with them in the same work , and commend the same light ( for t is no other but that of christ the qua : cry up ) in the same words with the priests , then in enmity against the qua , they set themselves to cry it down with as much indignation and detestation , as they cryed it up with approbation and high commendation before : then ( to go round again ) they sing a new song in contempt of it , to the time that hereunder followeth , inveighing most heavily and bitterly against the quak : for this businesse of warning men to take heed to the light within , to that of god in their consciences , calling both it and them no lesse then all to nought : witnesse their clamours against the qua : for this very thing in baxt. epist. p. . ] their i.e. the qu● : great pretence , when they dishonour the scripture and the ministry , is to lead men to a light within them , and this is their cry in our assemblies and our streets [ hearken to the light and word within you ] and the sufficiency of this they clamourously defend . so p. . they ( i.e. the quakers ) assert that there is a light in every man sufficient to guide him to god of it self , that it is a rule to shew duty and sin , that there 's no need of other teaching of man , that this is one in all , that it is the gospell , this is the main prop of the new anti-christian religion , or frenzy of the quak : and leads them into pernitious courses . so p. . a mans own light [ cry they , speaking of that of god in the conscience of all men , which somtimes themselves call no lesse then gods law in them , which is in them , but not of them , nor naturall , but spirituall , holy , just and good ] cannot warrant of it self without the scripture a mans actions to be lawfull , which he doth according to that light [ and yet t. d. sayes much of the truth of the scripture is written on the hearts of the heathen , and that so much of it as is there written is their rule , so by consequence mens rule can't of it self warrant mens actions to be right that are regulated by it : ( oh the rounds of these men ) yea tomb. and baxter blush not in proof of that their lye as boldly as blindly , to assert in the same page that paul in his bloody persecutions and sins followed the light within him , and counted it his great sin that he had so done , though they confesse ( as before ) that all light in all men is from god and christ , and that the light , some of which all men have from god and christ , though dim in regard of its small measure , gives them to discern sins , dutyes , and divine attributes , and leads them to much of god and more morallity , fidellity , chastity , temperance , righteousness , which the letter sayes are the fruits of the spirit , then most christians have attained to : yea so blasphemously seeme they to speak in the same page of the light within which the qua. follow and call to , which is no other then that of god in men that convinces them of sin as to intimate that men may , as the quakers say they do , follow the light within them , and yet their practice be of the devill [ the prince and ruler only of the darknesse in men ] and not from gods spirit , yea ( say they there ) if following the dictates of a mans own conscience ( i.e. the leadings of the light in it ) could warrant his actions the most horrid acts of idolaters , papists , pagans , mahometans , fanaticks , i. e. mad men should be free from censure and controul . thus to their own shame confusion , and self contradiction who one while speak well of it , they speake abominably of the light within , as if all the wickednesse that is in the world came to passe by following the light within the conscience , the going away from which into mans own vain imaginations and vile inventions into the dark , for not taking heed to the ●ouncell of god , i. e. his light in the heart , is the only cause of all abomination , without which light shining , and mens loving the darknesse and evill deeds , which it condemns more then it , there could be neither sin , as ●hrist sayes , nor condemnation , iohn . . rom. , . as ( to go round again ) to their own confutation themselves intimate in the very next words , p. , . which are thus . if a man do that which he thinks to be evill , [ that is by the lights dictating it so to be in his own conscience , as they hinted just before ] though it were good and lawfull in it selfe , it would be sin to him , yea that man that doth good against his conscience is hut an hypocrite in so doing , though the thing in if self be right and good : when a man doth evill , which his conscience tells him is so , he commits a sin of the highest degree , as to him that knowes to do good , and doth it not , to him it is sin , iam. . . that is , sin in an high degree , hence great horrour of spirit hath attended them that have omitted good , which their conscience told them they should do , and much more horrour in them that have done evill against their conscience , as in the case of iudas , spira and other instances might be given [ without which acting against conscience there 's neither sin nor horrour say we with john and christ , ioh. . . ioh. . but peace as themselves hereunder confesse , i.e. assurance of gods acceptance , acquittance , non-condemnation , justification . ] and therefore ( say they ) if the qua : intended no more then this , by bidding men look to the light within them [ and no more then that do we intend , god knows , though the blind guides , who can't see wood for trees , hating us , are minded to make men mistake us , as miserably as themselves mistake us ] that men should take heed that they omitted not the good their own consciences told them they ought to do , and that they did not the evill their consciences judged to be so , we should accept of their warning . surely it will concern you , as to look that your conscience be not erroneus [ as it ever is when , and never is , say i , but when it erres from the light of god within it , for the heart is a dark place of it self , but as the true light shines in it , pet. . . and heeds not that . ] so , when your conscience is rightly informed , to follow it , and when it goes wrong [ as it never does , say i , but when it goes from its guide the light ] yet to suspend the act which it condemns [ till by the light it come to approve of what it ignorantly condemned ] if you desire peace [ it seemes then by these men , as well as the qua : doctrine , that peace is no where to be had but in walking according to the light in the conscience ] there will ( say they ) be no plea to acquit him before god , or to quiet his own spirit , who proceeds to act according to the light in his own conscience : and a sin against the light of nature [ so they stile that voyce of god in the conscience still ] is so much the more damnable in that it is against the most irrefragable evidence [ mark how they somtimes yield the light in the conscience of all to be a far clearer evidence then that of the letter it self , and more dangerous to resist , in reference to which they somtimes ( to go round again call the light within , but obscure , meer darknesse and blindnesse , and not so dangerous nor damnable to resist , but rather dangerous , yea no lesse then damnable to follow ] he that doubteth ( say they with paul ) is damned if he eat , because he eateth not of faith , for whatever is " not of faith is sin ( mark how themselves affirme with paul and us , that faith , without which nothing is pleasing to god , out of which all that 's done is damning , to be a faith in that light of christ , which is in the conscience . wo be to him ( cry they as we also do ) who condemns himself in what he allowes , and contrariwise , say we and paul , and consequently themselves , happy is he ( and he only ) who is not condemned in himself ( that is by the light in his own conscience ) in what he allowes . thus absolutely do these light-haters somtimes themselves blesse , approve and applaud the light , which otherwhiles they brawl and bark against , when it s own children the qua : appear to justifie it ; somtimes ( to go round again ) as absurdly do they bolt out bitternesse and blasphemies against that light which ( forgetting how unawares they confesse the truth to the qua : ) otherwhiles they so eminently applauded as good and of god , &c , making it somtimes pernitious , dangerous , yea in the highest degree damnable to neglect it ; at othertimes ( to go round again ) pernitious , dangerous , and in the highest degree damnable to attend to it : as p. . ] among the gentile philosophers there was light , but dim , no light , truly such , is to be rejected ; philosopphers light guided men well in some things ; yet ( to go round again ) in most did lead them into crooked and dangerous wayes [ which position of these blind guides is such an ignis fatuus , such a will with a wish or whimsicall piece of guidance , as they falsly render the light it self to be , which they call so ; as if one and the same light of god should be a safe and sure guide at one time , and such a misleading , unsafe guide and foolish fire at another , as p. . will lead into nothing but bags & praecipices , or as if the least measure of the light of god could lead any man into the least measure of iniquity ; yea somtimes they call this light of god in the conscience , which is gods own voyce ( in nature at least as i.o. sayes ) his law and most immediate counsell to a man , no other then mans own counsell , way , 〈◊〉 that leads to cursing , witnesse p. , . where they say thus ] to leave a person to his own imagination , lust , to walk in his own counsell , his own way ( which is all one as to leave him to the light within him ) is the greatest curse and judgment to a man from god , for refusing to hearken to gods voyce . therefore the light within each person is of it self no safe guide , and the qua ; prescribe that to men as their rule , which god counts their curse [ yet ( to go round again ) p. . ] the light within each person is by creation and inward work of the spirit [ so to be left to the inward work of the spirit is it seems with these men the greatest curse , yet ( to go round again ) as before , p. . ] the qua : charge publick preachers with denying the light within each man , whereas such light is not at all denyed by them , but is acknowledged to be a great benefit to mankind , and p. . it concerns those who own christ as their light , to judge themselves and their wayes by his light , [ and the light within is his light , witnesse baxt. epist. above cited , this light is from christ both as the authour and restorer of nature , all this light ( within us and without us ) is to be hearkened to , and obeyed ] it s the greatest benefit of light that it doth make manifest , by the light of christ the evill of our wayes is reproved , the wayes of god approved , we know the righteousness of god and our own unrighteousness , this is no small benefit to have light to discern our own errours , which without light from christ [ and his light within say i , by which only every man knowes , de facto , what he is ] we should never have understood , a wise christian therefore will be often judging himselfe ( and self judgment saith i. o. is from the light indelebly implanted by god within each mans conscience ) by the light of the law [ which law is light saith the letter , prov. . . ] discovering his transgressions [ yet ( to go round again ) p. . oh that all that talk of the light within them would follow the light about them ! light within you whatever the qua : tell you , will leave you in perplexity , when you shall have most need of comfort ; but ( to go round again ) if you believe in the light of christ , as it s held out to you in the gospell [ that is the letter with them , which letter yet testifies the light of the gospell of christ to be shining from god within mens hearts , cor. . ] you shall see the light of life . therefore ( to go round again ) be perswaded [ cry they , and so they conclude their book ] to disclaime the pretended new light within you , as your sufficient guide to god , and chuse the light of christ from heaven in his gospel to walk by [ which christ say i , speaks and shines from heaven to men , now no where immediately , but in mens hearts and consciences , though men write and speak as from him here on earth , whom speaking there by his spirit from heaven , it 's more dangerous to turn away from , then from them that speak but on earth ] and it ( say they and so say i ) will guide and " comfort you surely and sweetly to eternall life . so i have shewed how these two children of the night and darknesse r b. an i. t. who were wont to bite and tear one another about the tradition of infant baptisme do both concurr in their divinity doings against the qua ; and the light within , to bawl out somthing , uno ore , against both , far better then their joynt dis-joynted talk concurres together within it self ; and so run the rounds and dance the hay , up and down , in and out , and somtimes round about , that the reader of them can hardly discern or find whether they be fuller of concessions to the qua : by their confessions to , and commendations of the light within , or of denyalls , contemnings and condemnations of it , for at severall times ( somtimes more expressly , somtimes more implicitly ) they are found in both in a most egregious manner ; one while ( as if parturirent montes ) mightily magnifying the light within for a great way together , as if we might warrantably take them to be some trusty friends to it , another while minifying , vilifying , nullifying it into nothing but some blind lump of darknesse ; like the lizard making many good prints upon it with their fore-feet , in that sandy way wherein they passe , and then dashing them all out again with a long bushy tail , or tale of it to the contrary ; like the blind night b●t flying and fluttering up into the air with a mighty humming noyse of encomiums about it , and then dropping down into a piece of cow dung : as the devill serv'd him who is the author of it , who , after he had set him upon the highest pinnacle of the temple , he would fain have thrown down thence to destruction ; so deal these by the inward light or word of gods speaking in the heart , which , after in words they with i. o. have magnified over all gods name , they thrust it down ( as he does ) below every name yea and every thing almost that hath any name at all ; and , as i. o. after in a sound of words , they have set it out as glorious , next to god , as the sun in its brightnesse , render it under many reviling , opprobrious titles , well nigh as odious , as satan himself in his princely , and their own priestly blindnesse : so that which side soever of those two sides and sorts of sayings or double tongu'd talk of the light the truth stands on , yet ( unlesse contradictories can ) it 's certain all cannot be true which they utter of it : and if the worst should be true , as ( absit blasphemia , far be it from any good man to beleeve their blasphemies of it are ) then the best is false , and that at best proves themselves no better then self-confounders ; but if the best they say of it be true ( as most true it is ) then r. b. and i. t. till they both repent in dust and ashes before the lord for their sin in belying his light , can expect no better from him , then what is due to all blind truth blasphemers . as for t. d. he sayes the least of all these four in contradiction to himself about the light ; howbeit , as is above shewed , not so little , but that it s seen , that eodem cum illis haeret luto , he sticks in the same quagmire together with them : but as for i. o he is more over head and eares in it , as to this poynt , then all the rest . i shall only take two or three more turns upon that wheel of his , on which he is unwearied in running round , and so make an end with them altogether at this time . and first let us see what i. o , saith by way of concession to us , against himself , about the light in all mens consciences . first , tr , . c. . s. t . he writeth thus ( viz. ) god declares his soveraign power and authority , righteousness and holinesse by the innate or ingrafted light of nature , and principles of the consciences of men . that indispensible morall obedience which he requireth of us as his creatures subject to his law , is in general thus made known unto us ; then citing and writing out at large that text , rom. . , . for the gentiles , &c. he goes on thus : by the light which god hath indelibly implanted in the minds of men accompanyed with a morall instinct of good and evill , seconded by that self judgment which he hath placed in us in reference to his own over us , he doth reveale himself unto the sons of men [ and that we may know and be ascertained that this thing is no deceivable pretence , but that god doth so indeed reveale himself thereby , he adds s. . ] the voice of god in nature is effectuall ; it declares it self to be from god by its own light and authority . there is no need to convince a man by substantiall witnesses that what his conscience speaks it speaks from god , whether it bear testimony to the being , righteousness , power , omniscience or holiness of god himself , or whether it call for that morall obedience which is eternally and indispensably due to him , and so shewes forth the work of the law in the heart , it so speaks & declares it self that without further evidence or reasoning , without the advantage of any considerations , but what are by it self supplyed , [ and then without an outward ministry , letter , or writing surely , or if it did not , yet the letter without , that came from the light within , is of the lights own supplying ] it discovers its author from whom it is , and in whose name it speaks : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , those common notions and generall presumptions of him & his authority , that are inlayed in the natures of rationall creatures by the hand of god to this end , that they might make a revelation of him as to the purposes mentioned , are able to plead their divine original without the least contribution of strength or assistance from without [ thus far i.o. writes the truth of the light within , saving here and there the interposition of that epithite naturall ] thus far have i set down i. os. words , that all may see how far he accords with them in these words , in the same things about which he quarrells with the qua●as not knowing what to make of their inward word and light they talke of : which is indeed wholly ( though himselfe fees it not ) excepting in his often undervaluing of the light within by that name of naturall , as in opposition to the qua : which otherwise , while he sees it serves his turn so to do against another sort of his antagonists , he magnifies in words , and makes as honourable with all his might , as the qua : do , and together with them : he grants that its the voyce of god , a means of the knowledge of god , and of his will , of divine originall and authority , calls for that morall obedience ( a higher matter then he thinks for ) which is eternally and indispensably due to god , speaks in the name of god and from god so infallibly in the heart , that it needs no other evidence , assistance , advantage , &c. ( and then not the letter ) to witnesse that it speakes from god , is his law to which his creatures are to be subject , is ascertain'd to be no deceivable pretence , but that indeed by which god doth reveale himself to the soul of man , that light which god hath indelibly implanted in the minds of men , is accompanyed with a morall instinct of good and evill , seconded with a self-judgment in us in reference to gods own over us , shewes the work of the law in the heart , so as they are left wholly inexcusable , who will not learn and know god from thence : neverthelesse ( to go round again ) he pinches it back at first ( after he hath done magnifying it ) with the diminitive termes of the light of nature , low , dark , obscure , ● winekling light , that scarcely peeps out of the most pernitious darknesse , enlightening mearly in morall matters , duties , morall good and evill , sufficient to leave men without excuse , not save , nor bring them to the true knowledg of god , only that which was given to man at first before he fell , the state of the first man , and at last a thing altogether faigned , a deceivable pretence , grossely imagined , every ones private light making as many rules as men . that inward light , the revelation that comes from which is uncertain , dangerous , unprofitable , no way necessary to the knowing of god and his will , therefore to be rejected and detested . a means of the knowledge of god , and of communion with him , boasted of by the fanaticks , an addition to the written word of god which is most heavily damned by the spirit of god , among that of confabulation with angells and others , id genus furfuris , of the like bran : that which we are sent to that we may get the knowledge of god , or any direction in our duty to him at no time and no where at all by god ; a principle of revelation most uncertain , fallacious , both as to it self , and what things it reveals ; a meer faculty of the understanding ; i know not what light , of no correspondency with the scripture and word ; i know not what divine soul of the world mingled in all things , which is every thing , and truly nothing ; a light which , however attended to , is in all divine things , as to the utmost end , meerly darknesse and blindnesse it self . these and many more id genus furfuris etfarraginis are the depressive , debasive denominations , whereby i. o. having first advanc'd the light within and law of god in th● heart into its proper place , prerogative , titles , and authority , as gods vicar on earth ( which office the pope and clergy have long usurped ) as a faithfull witnesse , right reverend recorder , and subordinate iudge for god , and between god and man in the conscience , doth after thrust it out again from its throne , rob it of its recordership , detrude it from its true title , divest it of all its authority , digrade it from its vice-gerentship , turn it down from the bench to the bar , and there , like a iustice of neither peace nor truth , pass his scornfull sentence on it , and damn it into utter darkness , among a crue of counterfeits , fanatical fancies meer figments , & imaginations , & the whole rabble of such like malefactors & deceivers , as any may see , who having so much skill will be at so much pains as to consult those pieces of his latine piece , that are to that end here cited in the margent . * wee see then that though these men agree all together to witnesse against the truth , yet their witnesse agrees not together within it self , their assertions assent not , but assault one the other about the self same subject , the light , some saying , as they said of christ , he is a good man , others nay but he deceiveth the people : one while t is o divinae originis lumen ! o vox dei effectualis ! non hominem sonat , est dea , aut a deo certe ; o lux dei seipsam declarans , et ●uthoritatem suara , per quam deus infallibiliter revelat seipsum hominibus ! quid verbis opus est cum ipsa loquitur ? quid testibus ad extra ad convincedum ? &c. o lex dei in corde 〈◊〉 mentibus hominum insita ! ibi loquens , judicans in nomine domini , n●men dei , p●r quod seipsum exhibet cognoscendum , &c. anon again , in hoc no●ine domini incipit omne malum , then t is , o pestis ! o labes ! o nequitia ! ipsa nequitia nequior . so then sua ipsorum contra seipsos pugna de luce sic se habet : ex hac parte p●●● et pudicitiaest , illinc petulantia et stuprum : hine fides est , illinc fraudati : hinc pietas , illinc scelus ; hinc constantia , illinc suror ; hinc certitudo , illinc fail●●lis pretextus ; hinc honestas , illinc turpitudo ; hinc justa , justitia ( adeoque si fieri possit ) justitia justior ; illinc ficta , fictitia , falsa , falsissima , fallaciâ ipsâ fallacior : hinc dei quidam digitus , seu insculptio quaedam in cordibus , non nisi per dei quidem ipsius manus , illinc ( ironice ) deus nescio quis ? seu forsan deo quopiam quid melius , aut ipso diabolo pejus ; hinc penè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , illinc verè nihil , hinc lux ipsa luce clarior , illinc mera tenebrae & caecita , adeoque obscuritate ipsa ferè obscurior . one more iigge of i. o. about the light of god we testifie to , as one and the same gift or grace of god in all , as to its nature , though different in measure , is this , which is in part toucht on above , and then i leave them all to dance in the dark all together if they will , till they are as weary , as i am in tracing after them : he may well say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of it , yet verè nihil , for he first makes it every thing , and at last just nothing , as any one may find comparing his first treatise with his last tract of theses : one while he calls it metaphoricall , not pròper ; otherwhiles proper , not metaphoricall ; one while natural , as opposite to civill , and not morall , spirituall , nor supernaturall ; otherwhiles and in other respects he makes it civill , morall , spirituall , and in effect supernaturall , as in opposition to naturall ; one while ( ironically ) some certain divine soul of the world mixt with all things , yea all these things abovesaid , yea all things also , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , otherwhile verè nihil , truly nothing ; one while common to all and universall , but then not saving ; otherwhile sufficient and saving , but then particular only and peculiar to few , not common nor universall : yea the light is made little lesse then a monster of all shapes , a nescio quid ? a certain naturall , supernaturall , civill , morall , spirituall , reall , metaphoricall , sufficient , insufficient , efficacious , ineffectuall , usefull , useless , safe , dangerous , peculiar , common , speciall , generall , particular , universail , every thing , which when all comes to all is none knowes what , but a meer just nothing , so here is a unity , thus parting it self into a plurality , divided first into a duality , then turned into a trinity , then quartered into a quaternity , then extended into an universality or certain omniality , and then as some nihil in nil revertens , returning back into a particularity , and narrowed up nearer into a neutrality , till it resolve and annihilate it self at last into a very nullity . thus the priest's work , who talk for self , is tangling talk against it self ; 'gainst truth a prate , a piteous preachment , that can't make good its own impeachment . as dr : owens doctrine does , who heeds not well which way he goes , baxter's , tomb's , dansons dances round , and round again in th' self same ground ; it staggers to and fro , and reels , skips up and down , and runs on wheels , starts aside like some broken bow , crosses christ like cris x crosse in th' row , whoso can feel in it may feel as 't were a wheel within a wheel : a net , gin , trap a snare's in it , a whirlpool , gulf , bottomlesse pit , wind , dust , husk , chasse , no stable steeple , a tale , that takes unstable people , a toy , a cloud , mist , smoak , a fogg , no quakerisme , but some quavering bogg ; a quick-sand , a quagmire , that sucks , who 's in 't his feet out hardly plucks , himself who 's in , gets seldome out , it self 's more seldome in then out ; it flutters like some blind night bat , now here , now there , this way , now that , now it is one thing , then another , and now and then nor t' one nor t' other . somtimes it 's this , somtimes it 's that , somtimes it s this , and this , and that , somtimes 't is either this , or that , somtimes 't is neither this , nor that , now this , not th' other , a non it s either , then by and by both both , and neither . one while it looks like so , not no , another while like no , not so , one way it seems or so , or no , another way , nor no , nor so , some wayes it shewes both so and no , so 't's a meer endlesse no , and so. sam : fisher. sic o sic quantas , pate●asque quotas , quasque tu , plenas babilone totas , haud tibi , at sancto cuicung ; notas , bestia potas ? scripta scriptorum modo multa notas , scripta scripturae modo sacra notas , huic tamèn cae cos oculos , remotas reddis et 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . puncta contendis , literaeque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 esse movendas neque , nec remotas , esse nec novas , sed babere notas biblia 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : esse scripturas benè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , aut per , aut propter licet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . esle sed mentemque , manusque lotas non benè notas . diruis nunc quae oedisicas , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 esse , vocales , literasque votas normam , et has meras dein ' esse ( o rotas ) non ita notas . perfici per has aliquando votas posse vel cunctos , aliquando ( o rotas ) neminem hic purum fieri revotas posse : ita motas . ebriaris sic , titub●sque ' grotas , haud dubes nunc , nunc dubitas , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( o sacerdos ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . quî sit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . quod scis hoc nescis , quast in orbe rotas , vertis hûc , illûc , modo circa rotas , fluctuas , curris , modo retro rotas , undique rotas : usque dum rotas , rotulasque , rotas , nectis in rotis . rotātimque rotas , tota dum tenet , tōtätimque totas opera rotas . rotas opera tenet arepo sator dixi haud magis malus piscator , ac tu , ac tui ( o sacerdos ) estis p●ssimi pisces , qui , ni regeneremini , rejiciemini in aeternum . in vi , via , vita , virtute ac veritate domini ( si salvabimini ) salvetot● . sam : fisher. finis . christ's light springing , arising up , shining forth , and displaying it self thorow the whole world , from under that priestly darkness ; wherewith it hath been clouded and overcast , by the space of one thousand two hundred sixty years , in this our antichristian-christian world. sect. . our testimony , and that truth to which we bear testimony , who by those to whom wo is , forasmuch as they tremble not at the word of god , are scornfully stiled quakers , is no different thing , nor another , but plainly one , and altogether the same , which all the holy men , and prophets of god h●ve have held forth , as also christ himself , and all his apostles and ministers , as many as have spoken ( as they were moved of god ) from the beginning of the world to this very day . . for even as they ( whose testimony who ? even few or none , either believed or received ) so we , who are of her children , of all and only whom wisdom is justified , give testimony to wisdom it self , not the wisdom of this world , nor of the princes of this world who come to nought , but to that hidden wisdom , which none of the princes of this world knew ( for had they known ; they would not crucifie the lord of glory ) the wisdom of god is a mystery , even the light of the lord god , and jesus christ who are light , and in whom is no darkness at all , yea to that glorious light that is now arising to enlighten that holy city , new ierusalem , where now there is to be no more night , into which nothing shall in any wise enter that defileth . . concerning which light , christ himself said to paul , being now truly converted to it , which he persecuted before , throw the blindness of his mind , i now send thee to the nations to open their eyes , and to turn them from the darkness to the light , from the power of satan unto god , that they may receive remission of sins , & an inheritance among those that are sanctified by faith , that is in me (a) . neither was this the business and ministry , which paul onely received of god , that he might fulfil it : but iohn al●o testines that this was the message , which he together with the rest of christ ministers , had received from ch●ist himself to declare , which was also f●om the beginning , not any new thing , ( however it might seem new , as being clouded till the darkness was past , and the true light shined again out of the darkness that sometime clouded it ) but the old thing which was from the beginning , namely that god is light , and in him is no darkness at all , and that if we say we have fellowship with him , and walk in darkness , we lie & do not the truth , but if we walk in the light , as he is in the light , we have mutual fellowship with him , and the blood of jesus christ his son cleanseth us from all sin , (b) moreover that who saith he is in the light , and hateth his brother is in darkness even until now . . concerning which light of god , of which the scripture every where speaketh , and from which inlightning the penmen thereof the scripture it self was given forth , which also was , which also shined in the heart of man long befere the scriptures were , we together with the scripture & the writers thereof do testify this self same thing , namely that a certain measure certain beams were of old , and now are given of god in the conscience of every of them to the sons of men , who although god made them after his own image , upright & blameless , have yet sought out to themselves , both various and vain inventions , and corrupted their wayes and erred ; and , as to any help they can have from themselves , are in a manner wholly perished from the true god , & from the true knowledge of him , whom truly to know is life eternal , and from all communion with him , to shine in their dark heart , as a light in a dark place , & to bring them back through the cond●mnation of their evill deeds , word ; , and thoughts , and of that whole chaos of confusion and corruption that came in by the fall , which condemnation this light will bring on all that take good heed to it , and through the mortification of that old man , and body , as well as of death , as sin , with all its earthly members , and in a word of all whatever in man is contrary to the image and will of god , and turn them back unto god , unto that primitive state of purity , righteousness and innocency , from which they departed to worship images in their own imaginations , to know , and to worship the true god , who is a spirit , truly in spirit & in truth , with which worship onely the lord is worshipped according to his will , and lastly to enjoy such spiritual peace & communion with him , as none are by any means possible ( as is aforesaid ) capable of , while they are alienated from him , by the darkness of iniquity , & while they remain in their transgression incorrigible , and unconverted . . (c) for both iews and gentiles , ( as it is written ) are concluded all under sin , there is not one righteous , no not one , there is none that under standeth , there is none that seeketh after god , they are all gone out of the way , they are altogether become unprofitable , there is none that doth good , no not one ; their throat is an open sepulchre , with their tongues they have used deceit , the poyson of asps is under their lips , their mouth is full of cursing , and bitterness , their feet is swift to shed blood , wasting , and misery is in their wayes , and the way of peace they have not known , there is no fear of god before their eyes , so that every mouth is stopped , and the whole world become guilty before god , for al have sinned and f●ll short of the glory of god. . this is the state of all ma●k●nd seperated by the fall from the light into the darkness , among whom even all of what oever sex , nation , language condition or age ( at least that is capable to discern between good and evil ) i say all may say within themselves we are lost , we are gone down headlong into the utmost darkness ; into extream damnation from god : neither is their any other way to life exhibited but by iesus christ the light of the world , by some measure of light at least shining from himself , enlightening ( as it 's said ) every man that comes into the world , shining in darkness , in the dark consciences of men , though the darkness comprehend it not holding by the hand also ; & as it were leading by the hand those , that being in nared in chains of darkness , & thrust down into the pit , do not winke with their eyes , to the further blinding of them , but according to the councel of christ himself , believe in the light whilst they have it , that they may become children of the light : for i am the light of the world ( saith christ ) he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness , but shall have the light of life ; also i am come a light into the world that whosoever believeth in me , may not remain in darkness ; [e] i came not to damn the world , but to save the world . . in this manner therefore is christ the salvation of the world , as he is the light of the world , destroying the works of the devil , who hath wrought in the darkness to the setting up of a principality , and a kingdom to himself in the hearts of men , and redeeming men from the power of the prince of the darkness of this world unto god , who is light , and to see light , even the light of life in his light. [f] . in like manner doth the prophet isaiah affirm christ to be given of god for a covenant to the people , for a light to the nations to open the blind eyes , and to bring out of prison them that sit in darkness even the blind which have eyes , and see not [g] and after him paul testifieth that christ was set as a light to the nations that he might be the lords salvation to the ends of the earth . simeon also speaking by the holy spirit of the child iesus calls him that salvation of his , which the lord had prepared before the face of all people , to be a light to lighten the nations and the glory of his people israel . [h] . in as much therefore as christ is the light of the world , he is the saviour of the world , and so far only are men saved by him as they believe in him , who is the light , and in that light wherewith he doth enlighten every man in his own conscience , and set themselves to walk after it , which leads no man into iniquity , and so far forth are all men liable to condemnation before god , as they walk not in this , which is in them , howbeit not consenting to any , but testifying against all iniquiry , even the least , and also reproving and condemning it , even in them , who are not in it , but walking contrary to it , in the darkness . . for although god in his great love gave his son for a light , not that he might damn the world , but that the world through him might be saved , and be that believeth in him is not condemned , yet he that believeth 〈◊〉 is condemned already , and this is the condemnation , that light is come into the world , into the inmost consciences of men , there manifesting good and evill ; but men love the darkness rather then the light , because their deeds are evill ; for he that doth evill harsth the light , neither cometh to the light , ●ast his deeds should be reproved , but who so doth truth he cometh to the light , what his deeds may be made manifest , that they are wrought in god. [i] . and al though all that obtain justification , are justified freely , by the grace of the lord through the redemption that is made in iesus christ alone ( yea , cursed be he , and cursed will he be that seeks for justification any other way , for he who is the light of the world , is also that corner stone , which ( however it be set at nought by a thousand and thousand of the 〈◊〉 , is yet made the head of the corner ; neither is there salvation in any other , nor is there any other name save that of christ , the light , under heaven given among men whereby they must be saved ) [k] nevertheless no further is any man accepted of god , or justified by christ , or the grace of god in christ , then as he is directed by christ the light , and is by the grace of god , by that , inward with 〈◊〉 of god by the light of god and christ in his conscience , which is given of god for this very end , that it may teach and lead , taught and led unto repentance from the unfruitfull works of darkness . . for this light shewes the riches of the goodness , and long suffering , and forbearance of him who is long suffering to-us-ward , not will that any should perish , but that all should come to us by repentance , & is that very grace of god bringing salvation that hath appeared to all men , teaching all that will learn what it teacheth , that denying ungodlyness , and worldly lusts they should live soberlys righteously and godly in this 〈◊〉 world , which kind of life will otherwise be to late to begin to live in the world to come , which grace being received in vain , how much more being despised , by the hardness of the heart refusing to repent , wrath is treasured up against the day of wrath , and the revelation of the righteous judgement of god , who will render unto every one according to his works , to them , who by patient continuance in well doing , seek for glory and immortality , eternall life , but unto them that are contentious , and obey not the truth , but obey unrighteousnes , indignation and wrath : for [l] tribulation and anguish is to come upon every soul of man that worketh evill ; but glory honour and peace to every one that worketh good hath to the jew and also to the greek : for there is no respect of persons with god ; but in every nation he that ●ea●eth him , and manketh righteousness , is accepted with him , but the wicked and him that loveth violence , his soul rateth . . and howsoever the world which is call'd christian , together with the manifold sects , professors , and meerly nominal christians and ministers thereof , may dream that they have christ their redeemer , very often calling him , lord , iesus continuing in the mean time in all disobedience to his light , yet the foundation of the lord standeth sure having this seal the lord knoweth who are his , and let every one that nameth the of christ depart from iniquity . . for the day of the lord draweth nigh wherein both every man and his deeds shall be made manifest , for the day which is the light shall declare them , for they shall be revealed by fire , and the fire shall try every mans works of what sort they are ; and in that day all those d●eamers shall be awakened , and shall know that as concerning the truth they have erred far from the mark , and that not every one that saith unto christ , lord , lord , shall enter into the kingdome of heaven , but he that doth what christ saith , and what the will is of his father wh●ch is in heaven , and though they have prophecyed in his name , and done great things , nevertheless for as much as they departed not from iniquity , they shall be doom'd from christ with d●part from me , ye workers of iniquity , i know you not . . then shall the whole multitude of transgressors of the law i. e. of the light of god in the conscience by which all , even those that have not the law written in an outward letter , are a law to themselves , having the work of the law written in their hearts , that the lamb of god came not to tolerate , but to take away the sin of the world , and that iesus was sent , not to give liberty to sin , but to set his people at liberty from their sins , and that in the greatest liberty , wherwith christ freeth his people , there is the least licence , and that the father having raised up his son hath sent him to blesse men , they turning away every one of them from his iniquitie : , & that those blessed ones , to whom the the lord imputeth not sin , wh●se iniquities a●e forgiven , & whose sin is covered , are such in whose spirit there is no guile , and that there is in no wise any remission of sins unto those , who still accustome themselves to a dayly commission of them . [m] . moreover the great and terrible day of the lord now cometh , wherein the light , which is risen in the con●ciences of men , shall dayly , more and more clearly shine forth , in which also the ●he book of conscience must be opened , that ●ut of it all men may be judged according to all things that are written therein , where , by the light , which is gods faithfull witness , all sin is written down in the sight of god , as with a pen of iron ; in which day , by the light , god will come night to us to judgement ; and then the righteousness , grace and mercy of god shall be revealed towards all , who , standing still in his light , wait for him to come as a redeemer to them from their impieries , that they may be saved from the wrath , that is to come upon all the children of disobedience , by which light the wrath of god shall be manifested from heaven in their own con●ciences against all ungodliness & unrighteousness of men , who retain the truth in unrighteousness ; in which day god will reign down upon the wicked , snares , fire , brunstone , and an horrible tempest , all which things shall be the portion of their cup. . moreover in the hand of god there is now a cup and the wine thereof is red , and it is full of mixture , and he poureth one of the same , and iudgment is begun at the house of god , and god hath begun to bring evil upon the people , upon whom his name is written , and his nature & image is imprinted ; & they , whose portion it is not , in such a measure as they have drunk of the cup of abomination and fornication , have drunk also of the cup of indignation and wrath , before they could take the cup of salvation , and prai●e the name of the lord , in no wise therefore shall the wicked go unpunished , but the worshippers of the beast , and those that receive his image must drink also of this wine , which is poured one of the mixture into the cup of his indignation , and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angells , and of the lamb : yea , the very dregs hereof , the top whereof the children of the light and of the day have tasted , the children of the night and of the darkness , that is all the wicked ones of the earth shall drink and wring them out . . wherefore whilst in the long suffering of god opportunity is not wanting unto you , whilst the day of your visitation is neer unto you from god , let my councell be accepted of you all ; and turn your selves to the light of christ in your own consciences , and take councell thereat for ever , which seriously and sincerely minding , you shall be taught by christ himself , whose testimony to you , from heaven , that is , to your both externall , internall and eternall peace and salvation , and shall be brought to christ himself , and to see him , and his father from both whom it comes , to the saving knowledg of whom there can be no coming any other way whatsoever ; for as the sun of this outward world is not seen , but by that light which flows from it self unto us , so neither is the sun of righteousnesse , but by that measure of light ( how little soever it be ) that shines from him in the heart . . for although the scripture which speakes of the light , and directs to the light maketh mention of the father and of the son , so that there ye may read of them , and speak of them also , according to what ye there read ; yet this the scripture it self witnesseth that none can know either the father or the son , but he to whom the father and the son do mutually reveal each the other , whose revelation also is made within (n) for that which may be known of god , sufficient to salvation is manifest in men ( saith paul ) for god doth manifest it in them and the gospell is preached in every creature which is under heaven (o) by the light of god in the conscience , so that they are left inexcusable before god ( who else would be excusable & blameless ) forasmuch as though they know god , yet they glorify him not as god , neither like to retain god in their knowledge , but knowing the judgement of god , that they which do such things , as they do , are worthy of death , yet not onely do the same , but have pleasure in those that do them . . in the mean while we do not affirm christ himself to be in all men , who yet is known to be in all that are not reprobates , as that hope of glory ; nevertheless all ( for there is no difference , but what is made by different degrees of light , which do not vary the nature of the thing ) have some measure or other of his light at least one talent committed to them , that they may trade therewith to profit withall , which using well , and doubling they have entrance into the joy of their lord , but hiding of which and not gaining therewith , they shall be thrust out at last from the light they have , into the utter darkness , where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth : this light therefore shines in all even the heathe● , in some measure , although not in all in the same measure . . to the measure of which light of christ , which in you is , you will do well to take heed while you have it , as unto a light shining in a dark place , to give you the knowledge of your salvation , and guide your feet in the way of peace , and that you may find true rest to your burdened and wearied souls , and lest darkness come upon you , for he that walketh in darkness , knoweth not whether he goeth , nor at what he stumbles . . this light is the law of god ( for the law is light saith the wise man (p) ) written not with luke , but with the spirit of the living god , not in tables of stone ( as of old for a figure hereof , by the finger of god ) but in fleshly tables of the heart , in which may be read and understood not onely ( as in the scripture and the law without ) the right , that is , what you should do and should be , but the fact also , that is , what you do , and what you are : for to know thy self , whom if thou knowst not , thou knowst not christ , whom if thou knowst not , it s no profit to thee to know other things , this comes no other way then by an inward beholding of thy self in that more inward looking-glass , namely the light of christ , by which , god shines in the conscience , which light leads those that follow it to hear that true and living word of god , of which the scripture declares , (q) that its powerfull and mighty , and sharper then any two-edged sword , piercing even to the dividing of the soul and spirit , and of the marrow and reines , discerning the thoughts and cogitations of the heart , before which , all things are naked & bare ; that it is as fire , and as an hammer , breaking the rocks in pieces , and causing all things to tremble at the hearing thereof ; which was in the beginning , before the scripture was , which testifies of it , concerning which , the scripture both old & new doth truly testify , it 's not far off , but nigh in the heart and mouth , that thou maist do it , even that very word of faith the apostles preached . . this light is that good & old way , older than the eldest among the sects of this age , whether of iewes or christians , who ( all in the mean time , namely , both catholiks , and lutherans , and calvinists , & baptists , &c. every one professing themselves to be the antient est ) have divided the grand tree of the old roman church , into so many branches , lesser boughs , and little twigs , that the whole body thereof , wil ere long be sick even unto death , & she who hath been so long the mother of so many children , is almost now devoured of her own children . this light ( i say ) is that antient way , unto which , god by the prophet ieremiah called back the israelites , when degenerated from god into their own traditions , saying , stand in the wayes and see , and ask for the antient paths , where i that good way , walk therein , and you shall find rest unto your souls , but they said , we will not walk therein ; hearken to the voice of the trumpet , but they said , we will not hearken . (r) . this light is a teacher that cannot deceive , for it is the testimony of god , which is greater than the testimony of man ; nor yet can it flatter , for it reproves every one justly , not justifying the wicked , and condemning the innocent , but telling every one the truth concerning himself directly as the case is , and no otherwise , accusing , and excusing then god himself , from whom it is , for if by that which is shining from god in thee thy own heart condemns thee , there is no god without that holds thee guiltless ; but when by that thy heart condemns thee not , then maist thou have boldness before god. (s) . finally this light is that perfect law of liberty , of which whoso is a hearer , and not a doer , he is like a man that beholds his natural face in a glass , which so soon as ever he hath beheld , and is gone away , he straitway forgets what manner of man he was , but whoso looketh into it , and continueth therein , and is not a forgetful , and an idle bearer , but a doer of the work , this man shall be blessed in his deed . (t) henceforth therefore , who ere thou art , who wouldst know thy self , do not seek thy self out of thy self , but behold thy self , within in that inward light , which inwardly gives the di●cerning , not only of the good and perfect mind , and will of god concerning thee , but also of thy own mind , and of thy whole self , and that so perfectly , that concerning these , and even all things pertaining to the salvation of the soul , and the kingdom of god , with the righteousness thereof , and what haereditary right thou hast therein , which is nigh wch is within ( saith christ to the pharisees , (v) who never entred into it ) there is no need that thou shouldst go forth of thy self , in order to a further evidence , and understanding of them : yea thou knowest more than enough already , if of the good will of god thou knowest more than thou livest up to , for what good is only known , and not done , tends only unto thy condemnation : in all openness and plainness , and not in knowing what is to be done , but in doing what is already known stands the salvation of the sons of men . . moreover what hinders ( unless they be delighted in the blinding of their own eyes , the stopping of their eares , and the hardning of their hearts , & in rejecting the councell of god to their own perdition ) but that the wicked may come to the life of god , from which they stand estranged ? for the way to that life , howere it 's narrower and straiter by reason of the cross of christ , which is dayly to be taken up by those that follow him , then that wide and broad way that leads to destruction , for which cause it is that so many enter in by this , and so few by the other , yet is , together with that which tends unto death , so plainly made manifest by the light that ( unless it be to such as are willingly ignorant ) it cannot easily be hidden : . for the fruits of the spirit or works of the light which are righteousness , love , goodnes , faith , gentlenes , sobriety , temperance , chastity , which who so brings forth to god lives with god , and sees god , are manifest to every one that doth not wink against the light in his own conscience ; and the works of darkness or of the flesh , such as are adultery , fornication , uncleannes , lascivicusness , idolatry , witch-craft , hatred , variance , emulation , wrath , strife , seditions , heresies , envy , murders , drunkenness , revellings , and such like , which whoeever doth shall never enter into the kingdom of god , are manifest ( saith the scripture , [w] ) and that not so much by the scripture , as by the light to which the scripture testifies , and by which they were manifest in the consciences of men , before the scripture was and are made manifest at this day where the scripture is not , by which also they would have been made manifest if the scripture had never been : for all things that are reproved ( saith the spirit , in the scripture , are made manifest by the light , for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. . to this therefore all apply your minds , to this come , in this walk and continually abide , even in the spirit of god , which reproveth the world , and comforteth the saints called , redeemed , and chosen out of the world : here stand continually , that ye may both know your selves , and comprehend false spirits with the works and children of darkness , who are comprehended and discerned by the spirit , by the light , although these comprehend neither it , nor its children ; and that grace , mercy and peace , may be multiplyed to you from god the father , and from iesus christ , whose councell in the conscience , whosoever hearkens to shall dwell safely , and shall be quiet from even the fear of evil : for this is a brazen wall to a man to be inwardly conscious to himself of no evill , not to wax pale at the sense of any crime . . but who so turnes aside from the light , leaving the pathes of righteousness to walk in the wayes of darkness , as he is inwardly condemned of himself , so both errour & terrour do meet him at every turn , so that howbeit he carryes outwardly a shew of laughter and mirth , yet he goes often grievously griped , and within waxes pale at the sense of that , which the wife of his own bosome is ignorant of . . all these things abovesaid , which at first were written in latine more privately , for the sake and use of a singular , eminent friend in germany , are now with no other alteration then the case requires , not without god himself also moving thereunto , given forth more publikely , as well in english as in latine , in service to you ( o academians ) and all others to whom we are ready ( according to peters councell ) to render a reason of the faith , which is in us , with meekness and fear , having a good conscience ; and to this end that both ye , whose eares being turn'd away from the truth are turned unto fables , & ye , who itching , and attending to no other business then telling , and hearing some new thing , suppose we bring certain strange and new doctrines to your eares , may know that we bring no new things , but all the old things , even the self-fame , which by gods ministers were uttered from the very beginning ; which al o we know either to your salvation , or greater condemnation your selves shall once acknowledge even for ever . . of which yet we are not slack to warn , & by admonition to awaken you , forasmuch as though to say the same things that were said before , it s not grievous to us , yet for you it 's safe , who , by over much incogitancy , & inadvertency ( i may truly say ) are ignorant of what ye know . . which truly if in the same light , and with the same sincere spirit , with which they were written , they may be throughly peru●ed by any , it shall repent neither me to have written , nor you to have read what is here written . . but if otherwise , and if this friendly wo●d of your salvation shall stir up in you the spirit of enmity & malignity , and receive from you rather an ignominious repulse , then an healthfull hearkening thereunto , it shall please me enough that in this work i have pleased god , & am clear of the blood of your souls , and ye at last shall remember at least ( yet not without repentance , though too late ) that ye were warned from god. by an english man , who is a friend , and lover of your souls . sam. fisher. lux christi emergens , oriens , effulgens , ac seipsam expandens per universum terrarum orbem e tenebris sacerdotalibus ; quibuscum cooperra , nec non offusa suerit , per mille ducentos sexaginta annos , in hoc orbe nostro antichristi-christiano . sect. . testimonium nostrum , & veritas cui testamur nos , qui ab iis , quibus vae est quia non tremunt ad verbum domini , nominamur ironice quakers , non est alierium quoddam , nec aliud , sed plane unum , ac omnino idem cum illo , quod exhibuerunt omnes sancti viri , ac prophetae dei ; perinde ac christus ipse , nec non omnes ejus apostoli , ac ministri , quotquot ( quemadmodum a deo moti erant ) loquuti sunt a seculo in hunc usque diem . . quemadmodum enim ipsi ( quorum testimonium quis ? vel duo , vel nem● credidit , ●ut recepit ) ita & nos , qui sumus ex filiis suis , a quibus omnibus , & solis justificata est sapientia , sapientiae ipsi testimonium damus ; non seculi hujus , nec principum seculi hujus , qui abolendi , sunt , sed occultae illi , quam nemo principum seculi hu●us cognovit ( si enim cognoovissent , dominum gloriae nequaquam crucifigerent ) sapientiae dei in mysterio , etiam luci domini dei , ac jesu christi , qui lux sunt & apud quos non dantur tenebrae , ●o luci illi gloriosae jam orienti ad illustrandam civitatem illam sanctam , jerosolimam novam , ubi nunc non amplius erit nox , in quam nequaquam intrabit qui●quam quod inquinat . . de qua luce dicit jesus ipse paulo ad hanc , quam olim praementis caecitate persequebatur , jam vere converso ; ad gentes te nunc mitto , ut aperias oculos eorum , & convertas eos a tenebris ad lucem , & a potestare satanae ad deum , ut remissionem peccatorum accipiant , & sortem inter sanctificatos per fidem , quae est in me . (a) . nec hoc fuit pauli solius negotium , & ministerium a deo receptum ut perageret , s●d & johannes testatur hunc esse nuncium ipsum , quem ipse cum reliquis ex . christi ministris ab ipso ad renunt'andum accepisser , quod etiam erat a principio , non no vum quid ( quomodocunque novum videri po●uit , ut quod obnubilibatu● priusquam tenebrae preteriissent , & e tenebris vera lux luxisset ) verum vetus , quod erat a principio , nempe deum esse lucem , nec tenebras in eo esse ullas , & si dixerimus nos communionem habere cum eo in tenebris ambulances , nos non sincere agere , sed mentiri ; sin in luce ambulantes , sicut ipse est in luce , communionem nos habere cum eo mutuam , & sanguinem iesu christi filii ejus mundare nos ob omni peccato ; (b) quinetiam qui dicit se esse in luce , & fratrem suum odit , in tenebris esse usque adhuc . . de qua luce dei , de qua undequaque loquitur scriptura , & a qua illuminante manuscriptores e●us scriptura etiam ipsa fuit edita , quaeque fuit , quaeque fulsit in corde hominis l●ge ante scripturae errant , nos una cum scriptura , & scriptoribus ejus hoc idem , hoc ipsum testamur , nempe mensuram quandam , radios quosdam hujus in uniuscujusque conscientia fuisse olim , & nuns esse a deo datos filiis hominum , qui omnes , etiamsi ad imaginem suam hos rectos fecit deus & inculpatos , quae siverunt sibi ipsis tam varias , quam vanas inventiones , & corruperunt vias suas , & a vero deo , & a vera ipsius cognitone , quem vere cognoscere est vita eterna , & ab omni cum cum eo communione erraverunt , ac ( quoad omne a seipsis auxilium ) penitus perierunt , ad lucendum in cordibus suis opacis , ut in obscuro loco lucerna & per condemnationem suorum operum , verborum , ac cogitationum maarim , ac tot us ipsius chaos consusionis , & corruptionis per lapsum subreptae , quam condemnationem lux haec adferet in omnibus eam bene animadvertentibus , nec non per mortificationem veteris illius hominis , ac tam mortis , ●uam peccati corporis cum terrestribus ejus membris , ac revera omnis , quodcunque in hominibus dei imagini , ac voluntati est contrarium , ad reducendum , & retrovertendum eos ad deum , ad primitivum illum puritatis justitiae , ac innocentiae statum , a quo ad colendas imagines per imaginationes suas decesse●unt , ad cognoscendum , & colendum verum deum , qui spiritus est , vere in spiritu , & veritate , cujusmodi adoratione sola ad beneplacitum suum adoratur dominus , ac denique ad fruendum tali cum ipso tum pace , tum communione spirituali , qualis nullo moda p●ssibili ( ut praedictum est ) capaces sunt aliqui , dum al errantur ab●eo per tenebras iniquitatis , & dum sint in transgressione manentes immorige●i , ac inconversi . . tam iudaei enim quam gentes ( sicut scriptum est ) (c) conclusi sunt omnes sub peccato , non est justus , ne quidem unus , non est qui intelligat , non est qui exquirat deum ; omnes deflexerunt simul inutiles factisunt , non est qui faciat quod bonum est , non est usque ad unum : sepulchrum apertum guttur eorum , linguis suis ad dolum usi 〈◊〉 , venenum aspidum ●ub labiis eorum , os eorum diris & amarulentia plenum est , veloces sunt pedes eorum ad effundendum sanguinem , divastatio , & mileria in viis eorum , & viam pacis non cognoverunt , non est timor dei coram oculis eorum , ita ut omne os obstruitur , et totus mundus coram deo in reatum incidit , omnes enim peccaverunt , ac deficiuntur gloria dei. . hic est status totius humani generis per deflectionem ex luce in tenebras a deo seperati , aqud quos omnes cujuscunque sexus , gentis , linguae , conditionis , aetatis ( saltem ad di●t inguendum inter bonum & malum capacis ) omnes ( inquam ) imus , imus precipites sibi dicant in tenebras extimas , in extremam a deo damnationen : 〈◊〉 daturalia aliqua via ad salutem , nisi per jesum christum , mundi lucem , per mensuram aliqua●em lucis ab ipso effulgentem , illuminantem ( ut dic●ur ) [d] unumquemque hominem venientem in mundum , in tenebris lucentem , in tenebrosis hominum mentibus , licet tenebrae eam non comprehendunt , manu-tenentem etiam , & manu-ducentem eos , qui catenis caliginis illaqueati , & in tartarum detrusi suis ips●rum oculis , ad ulteriorem eorum excaecationem , non connivent , sed secundum christi ipsius concilium , dum lucem habent credunt in lucem , ut filli lucis frant : ego enim sum lux illa mundi ( inquit christus ) qui sequitur me●non ambulavit in tenebris , sed habebit lucem vitae : itidem ego lux in mundum veni , ut quisquis credit in me in tenebris , non maneat , [e] non veni ut damnem mundum , sed ut servem mundum . . hoc modo itaque christus est salus mundi , ut est lux muudi destruens opera diaboli , qui in tenebris operatus est ad erigendum sibi regnum , & principatum in cordibus hominum , & redimens a potentia principis tenebrarum hujus seculi ad deum , qui est lux & ad videndum lucem , etiam lucem vitae in luce sua . [f] . eodem plane modo dicit esaias propheta christum fuisse a deo traditum in faedus populi , in lucem gentium , ad aperiendum caecos oculos , ad extrahendum e carcere sedentes in tenebris , etiam caecos , qui oculos habent , sed non vident , [g] et post illum testatur paulus christum constitutum fuisse lucem gentibus , ut sit saluti a domino ad extremitates terrae , nec non simeon , per spiritum sanctum de jesu puerulo 〈…〉 epum salurem-illam suam , quam 〈◊〉 . dominus in oculis 〈◊〉 putorum , ●umen deregendum gentibus , & gloria●h populi sui israelis . [h] . 〈…〉 christus est lux mundr est mundir salvator , do eatenus solum per ipsum se●ventur homines , qua●enus in hunclipsum , ●qut● est lux , & in ipsam lucem , qua 〈◊〉 in 〈…〉 illustrat , credunt , 〈…〉 neminem in nequitium ducit ambulare seipfos sistunt ; ac eo usque corams deo condemnationi obnox●i sunt omnes● 〈◊〉 usque in hac non ambulant , qua in illis est , non alacui consentiens 〈…〉 contra omnem , vel minimam , 〈◊〉 testans , eamque reda●guens , & condemnans , is in illis ipsis , qui non in illa suut , sed contra eam in tenebris ambulantes . . quamvis 〈…〉 su● de dito deus 〈…〉 lucem non ut damnet mundum 〈◊〉 mundus per eum servetur , & qui credit in cum non condemnatur , qui tamem non credit vel jam condemnatus est● ; & haec est condemnatio , quod 〈◊〉 venit in mundum 〈◊〉 hominum conscientias , 〈◊〉 & malum manifestans , sed deligunt homines potius tenebras quam ●lucem , quia opera eorum sunt mala ; quisquis enim quae mala sunt agit , odit lucem , nec●venit ad ●lucem , me redarguantur opera ipsius , qui vero veritatem 〈…〉 aut manifesta fiant opera ipsus quod sunt in deo operata . [i] . quamvis etiam 〈…〉 obtinent , 〈…〉 gratia domini , 〈…〉 jesu christo 〈…〉 thema , sit , & amathema●erit , qui●justificationem aliunde quaerit , hio●enim , qui est lux mundi , est etium lapisille angularis , quantumvis pranibilo habitus a millies mille aedificantibus , qui factus est caput anguli , nec est in alio quoquam alus , nec aliud nomen est , praeterquam christi , lucis , sub colodatum inter homines per quod oporteat eos fervati ) [k] verunt amen haud ultrevius quispiam a deo accipitur , aut per christum , seuper gratiam dei in christo justificatur , quam per christum lucem dirigitur , & per gratiam dei , per testem illum dei internum pe●●● ducem dei , & christi in conscientia sua , vel imbancfinem a deo dat●m , ut doceat , & ducat , docetur , & ducitur ad resipiscentiam ab operibus tebrarum infrugiferis . . haec lux enim oftendit divitias benignitatis , ac tolerantiae , ac lenitatisejus , qui pat●enti est animo erga nos , non volens ullos perire , sed omnes ventre ad resipiscentiam , & est ipsa dei gratia , quae illuxit quibusvis saluritera , & erudiens omnes , qui discent quod docet , ut , abnegata impietate , & mundanis cupiditatibus , temperanter , & juste , & pie vi 〈◊〉 in praesenti hoc seculo , cujusmodi vi●usera nimos cri●aliter in futuro ; qua gratia frustra recepta , quanto magis aspernata , per duritiem cordis recipi cere repudientis , thesaurus 〈◊〉 reconditu in diem irae , & revelationem justi judicii dei , qui reddet uniduique secundum opera ipsius , 〈◊〉 , qui , per patientiam in bonis openibus , quaerunt gloriam & honorem & incorruptibilitatem , vitam eternam ; ixosis vero & veritatinon assen●ientibus , obsequentibus , autem in justir 〈…〉 : [l] 〈…〉 hominis perpetrantis malum ; gloria vero , honor , & pax cuivis bonum bene facienti 〈…〉 etiam graeco ; non e 〈◊〉 est personarum acceptio apud deum , fed on quavis igente , qui timet eum , & operam 〈◊〉 justitiae acceptus est ei , improbum vero , & amantem violentiam odit anima sua . . et quantumcunque sommi at mundus , qui dicitur christianus , cum multifariis ejus sectis , professoribus , ac ( nomine tenus ) christianis , ac ministris , se christum habere redemptorem suum , non rare eum vocantibus . dominum , iesum , manentibus interim in omni luct suae in bedienta , fundamentum tamen domini stat solidum , habens sigillum hoc , novit dominus qui sui sunt , & quis quis nominat nomen christi abscedat ab iniquitate . . dies enim domini appropinquat in quo tum quisque , tum cujus que opera manifesta fient , dies enim qui lux est , declarabit , nam per ignem revelabuntur , & cujusque opera qualia sunt ignis probabit , & in dio illo expergesacti suerint omnes isti somno sopiti , & agnoscent se circa veritatem aberrasse a scopo , & quod non quisquis dicit christo , domine , domine introibit regnum caelorum , sed qui sacit quod dicit christus , quod vult pater ejus , qui in caelis est ; & etiamsi in nomine ejus propheta runt , & magna egerunt , nihilominus siquidem non decesserunt ab iniquitate , expulsi erunt a christo cum di●cedite a me , non novi vos qui transgressionem operamini . . tunc certo sciet tota cobor● transgressorum legis , i. e. lucis dei in conscientia , per quam omnes , vel ipsi , qui non habent legem externe conscripram , fibi ipsis sunti lex , thabentes opus legis scriptum in cordibus , venisse agnum dei , non ad tolerandum , sed ad tollendum peccatum mundi , & missum suisse i●sum , non ad libertatem dandum p●ccato , sed ad liberandum populum suum ex peccatis , & in maxima libertate , quacum christus suos l●berat , esse minimam licentiam , & patrem misisse su ciratum filium suum ad benedicendum hominibus , unoquoque avertente a parvitatibus suis , & beatos illos , quibus deus non imputat peccatum , quorum remissae sunt iniquitates , quorum obtecta sunt peccata , esse tales in quorum spiritu dolus non , est , & nequaquan esse remissionem pecca●orum illis , qui ad quoridianum eorum commissionem seipsos assuefaciunt . [m] . qu●netiam magnusille & tertibilis dies domini jam advenit , in quo lux , quae orta est in conscientiis hominum , magis ac magis quotidie elucescet , in quo liber etiam conscientiae aperiendus est , ut ex illo judicentur omnes secundum omnia , quae ibi scripta sunt , ubi per lucem , quae est testis dei fidelis , peccatum omne inscribitur in conspectu dei tanquam cum penna ferrea , in quo per lucem prope nobis veniet deus ad judicium , & revelabitur justilia , gratia , & miserecordia dei in omnes , qu● , in luce sua sistentes , expectant eum venturum liberatorem eis ab impietatibus , ut salvi fiant ab ira illa ventura in omnes inobedientiae filios , per quam patebit ira deie caelo , in ipsorum conscientiis , adversus omnem impietatem , & injustitiam hominum , quiveritatem injuste detineant : in quo die pluet deus in improbos laqueos , ignem , sulphur , & horribilem procellam , hujusmodi omnia erunt portio eorum poculi . . quinimo , in manu dei nunc est poculum , & vinum ejus est rubrum , & meri plenum est , & ex eodem effundit , & incepit judicium apud domum dei , & incepit deus malum in●ligere in populum , cui inscribitur nomen suum , & imprimitur sua natura , & imago , & ipsi , quorum portio nequaquam est , in quantum biberunt ex poculo abominationis , & fornicationis , biberunt tantum ex poculo indignationis , & excandescentiae , prius quam accipere possent poculum salutis , & laudare nomen dei ; nequaquam itaque impuniti abibunt improbi , verum adorators bestiae , & imaginem ejus accipientes bibent quoque ex hoc vmo , ex mero insuso in poculum excandescentiae ipsius , & torquebuntur sulphure , & igne in conspectu angelorum , sanctorum & agni ; imo foeces hujus , de cujus summitatibus gustaverunt filii lucis & diei , filii noctis & tenebrarum , hoc est , omnes improbi terrae , & bibent , & extroquebunt . . quamobrem dum in longanimitate dei non deest vobis opportunitas , dum a deo adest vobis dies visitationis vestrae , concilium hoc nostrum capiatis omnes , & dehinc convertatis vos-met ipsos ad lucem christi in vestris ipsorum conscientiis , & exinde consilium capiatis in eternum , quam se io & sincere animadvertentes a christo ipso , cujus testimonium vobis de coelo haec est , ad pacem , & salutem vestram tum externam , tum internam , tum eternam dedocibimini , & ad christum ipsum , & ad videndum eum , & patrem ejus , a quibus d●venit , deducemini , ad quorum cognitionem salutarem quocunque alio modo perveniri non potest : sicut enim non cernitur sol hujus mundi , nisi per lumen quod ab ipso profluit ad nos ; ita nec sol justitiae nisi per mensuram illam lucis ( quantumvis parvam ) quae ab eo fulget in corde . . etiamsi enim scriptura , quae de luce loquitur , & ad lucem dirigit , de patre , ac de filio verba facit , ita ut de his possitis legere , ac loqui quod ibi legitis , hoc tamen ipsa testatur scriptura nemin●m pos●e cognoscere vel patrem , vel filium , nisi cui pater & filius seips●s invice●n revelabunt , quorum revelatio etiam est introsum , (n) quod enim de deo cognosci potest , sufficienter ad salutem , manifestatur in hominibus ( inquit paulus ) (o) nam deus in ipsis manifestum fecit , & praedicatum est evange●ium in omni creatura , quae sub caelo est , p●r lucem dei in conscientia , adeo ut inexcusabiles coram deo relicti sunt ( qui aliter excusabiles essent , & inculpati ) siquidem cum deum norint , non tamen ut deum glorificant , nec visum est illis deum in notitia retinere , sed dei jure agnito , nempe eos , qui talia faciuut , qua●ia & ipsi , dignos esse morte , non solum ea faciunt , sed & facientibus ultro consentiunt . . interea tamen non dicimus christum ipsum esse in omnibus , qui in omnibus esse notus est qui non sunt reprobi , ut spes illa gloriae ; veruntamen omnes ( nam non est distinctio , nisi per varios gradus lucis , qui non variant rei naturam ) mensuram lucis suae aliqualem , & unum saltem talentum habent sibi commissum , ut negotiati sint cum eo ad utilitatem , quo bene utentes , & duplicantes ingressum habent in gaudium domini sui , quod vero occultantes , et non lucrantes cum eo detrusi sunt tandem a luce quam habuerunt , in tenebras illas exteriores , ubi est fletus , et stridor dentium : aliqualiter itaque in omnibus ( etiam ethnicis ) lux haec lucet , licet non aequaliter in omnibus . . ad cu●us christi lucis mensuram , quae est in vobis est , benefacietis si attendatis , dum habeatis , velut ad lucernam splendentem in obscuro loco , ad dandum vobis cognitionem salutis vestrae , & ad dirigendum pedes vestros ad viam pacis , ut & animabus vestris oneratis , & fatigatis veram requiem inveniatis , ne vos tenebrae deprehendant , nam qui ambulat in tenebris nescit quo vadat , nec ad quod impingetur . . haec lux est lex dei ( nam lex est lux inquit sapiens (p) ) inscripta non atramento , sed spiritu dei vivi , non in tabulis lapideis ( ut olim in figuram hujus per dei digitum ) sed in carneis tabulis cordis ; in qua non solum legatur , & intelligatur , ut in scriptura , & lege ad extra , de jure quid ageres , & quid esses , sed de facto etiam quid agis , & quid es : nam noscere teipsum , quem si ignoraveris , christum haudquaquam noveris , quem si nescis , nihil est si caetera noscis , hoc non aliunde venit , nisi per internum tui ipsius intuitum in intimiori hoc speculo , nempe luce christi , per quam splendet deus in conscientia , quae lux ducit sequentes eam ad audiendum verbum illud verum , & vivum dei , de qua scriptura loquitur (q) quod est potens , & efficax , ac penetrantius quovis gladio aucipiti , pertingens usque ad divisionem animae simul ac spiritus , compagumque , & medullarum , dijudicans cogitationes , & conceptus cordis , cui omnia sunt manifesta , & nuda , quod ut ignis est , & malleus confringens rupes , & causans ut ad audiotionem ejus tremebunda redduntur omnia , quod in initio fuit priusquam scriptura fuit , quae de eo testatur , de quo scriptura tum vetus , tum nova veraciter testatur quod non procul , sed prope est in corde , & in ore ut faciatis , etiam hoc ipsum verbum fidei , quod apostoli praedicabant . . haec lux est bona illa via , & antiqua , antiquior quam antiquisima inter sectas hujus seculi vel jusdaeorum , vel christianorum , qui ( omnibus interim , viz. tum catholicis , tum lutheranis , tum calvinistis , tum bapristis , se esse antiquissimos profitentibus ) in tot ramos , ramulos , & ramusculos veteris ecclesiae romanae truncum diviserunt , ut totum corpus ejus ad mortem brevi aegrotabit , & quae tot tam diu fuerit filiorum mater pene devorata jam est a filiis suis : haec lux ( inquam ) est antiqua illa via , ad quam per jeremiam revocavit deus israelitas in suas ipsorum traditiones a deo degeneratos , dicens , sistire , & cernite , ac quaerite pro antiquis semitis , ubi est bona ilia via , & ambuletis in illa , & invenietis requiem animabus vestris , sed dixerunt non ambulabimus in illa , auscultate voci tubae , sed dixerunt non auscultabimus . (r) . haec lux est doctor , qui non potest decipere , nam est testimonium dei , quod testimonio hominum majus est , nec potest adula●i , nam unumquemque redarguit juste , non justificans improbum , nec condemnans justum , sed unicuique verum dicens de seipso , prout res ipsa est , & non aliter accusans , aut defendens quam deus ipse , a qu● est ; si enim per hanc , quae est a deo in te lucens , cor tuum te condemnat , non datur deus ad extra te pro justo habens ; vbi vero per hanc cor tuum te non condemnat , securitatem coram deo habeas . (s) . denique haec lux est perfecta illa libertatis lex , cujus qui est auditor , & non effector , is similis est viro consideranti faciem suam nativam in speculo , qui simulatque consideravit seipsum abit , & statim oblitus est qualis esset , in quam vero si quis introspexerit , & permanserit in illa , nec est auditor obliviosus , nec otiosus , sed actor operis , hic beatuserit in opere suo (t) . dehinc itaque , quicunque teipsum nosceres , ne te quaesiveris extra , sed reipsum introrsum intuearis in luce illa interna , quae non modo mentem ac voluntatem dei de te bonam , & perfectam , sed & tuam ipsius mentem , ac totaliter teipsum tibi discernendum intus tam perfecte exhibet , ut de hisce , aeque ac de omnibus ad animae falutem , ad regnum dei pertinentibus cum justitia ejus , & quale tibi jus est haereditarium in illo , quod prope est , quod intus est ( inquit christus pharisaeis , (v) qui tamen nunquam ingressi sunt in illud ) non opus est ut egrediavis foras in ordine ad ulteriorem evidentiam & intelligentiam ; imo-plus fatis jamjam intelligis , si de beneplacito dei agnoveris plus quam agis : cedit enim tibi in condemnationem tantum , quodcunque bonum agnitum est & non actum : in aperto & facili , nec in cognoscendo quid agendum est , sed in agendo quod notum est salus filtorum hominum . . quinimo quid impedit ( nisi in excacatione oculorum , obturatione aurium , & obduratione cordium suorum , & rejectione consilii dei in perditionem suam delectentur ) quominus ad vitam dei , a qua alieni sunt , perveniant improbi ? via enim ad hanc quantumcunque angustior , & strictior est prae cruce christi , quae indies tollenda est ab iis , qui eum sequuntur , quam lata & spatiosa illa , quae ducit in exitium , qua de re tam multi per hanc , tam pauci per illam introeunt , per lucem tamen , una cum ea , quae ad mortem tendit , fit tam plane manifesta , us ( nisi sponte ignorantibus ) non potest facile occultari . . fructus enim spiritus , ceu o ▪ pera lucis , qualia sunt justitia , charitas , bonitas , fides , lenitas , sobrietas ; temperantia , continentia , quos qui deo profert cum deo vivit , deumque videt , cuiquam contra lumen in conscientia sua non conniventi sunt manifesta ; & opera tenebrarum , ceu carnis , cu●usmodi sunt adulterium , scortatio , impuritas , lascivia , idololatria , veneficium , inimicitia , lites , a mulationes , excandescentia , rixae , dissidia , haereses , invidia , caedes , ebrietas , commessationes , & his similia , qualia quicunque agunt regni dei haeredes non erunt , manifesta sunt ( inquit scriptura [w] ) idque non tam per scripturam , quam per lucem cui testatur scriptura , & per quam manifesta fuerint in conscientiis hominum antequam scriptura fuit , & hodie manifesta fiunt ubi scriptura non est , per quam etiam manifesta forent fi scriptura nunquam fuisset . omnia enim quae redarguantur ( inquit spiritus in scriptura ) [x] per lucem manifesta sunt , lux enim est illud , quod omnia manifesta facit . . ad hanc itaque animos vestros adhibeatis omnes , ad hanc veniatis , in hac ambuletis , & perpetuo mane atis , etiam in spiritu dei , qui redarguit mundum , & consolatur sanctos ex mundo vocatos , redemptos , & electos : hic horatim sistatis , ut & vosmet ipsos sciatis , & comprehendatis malos spiritus , qui per lucem comprehenduntur , ac dijudicantur , licet hi nec eam , nec filios ejus comprehendunt ; ut & gratia , & miserecordia , & pax multiplicetur vobis a deo patre , & a jesu christo , cujus consilio in conscientia quicunque auscultaverit , habitaverit secure , & quietus erit etiam a metu mali : hic enim est mutus ahaenus homini interne . nil conscire sibi , nulla pallesere culpata . . qui vero a luce deflexerit , relinquens semitas sinceritatis ambu lare in tenebrarum viis , is ut suopic judicio fit introrsum condemnatus , ita hunc tum error , tum terror semper obviam habituri sunt , ita ut dum speciem risus , & laetitia praese ferat , saepe tamen valde torquetur , & in t us pallet is infaelix , quod proxima nesciat uxor . . haec omnia supradicta , quae primo privatim magis , in amici singularis , & insignis cujusdam germanici gratiam , & usum , latine fuerunt conscripta , nunc , cum non ulteriori alteratione , quam hujusmodi rei ratio requirit , nec non deo ipso ad opus hoc movente , publice magis , idque tam anglice , quam latine rescripta sunt , & exhibita in usum vestrum ( o academici ) ac aliorum omnium , quibus petentibus a nobis parati sumus ( secundum petri consilium , pet. . . ) ad reddendum rationem fidei , quae in nobis est , cum mansuetudine , & timore , conscientiam bonam habentes ; in hunc finem vero , ut tam vos , qui aures a veritate avertentes ad fabulas divertitis , quam vos , qui prurientes , & nulli alii rei vacantes , nisi ad dicendum , & audiendum aliquid novi , putatis nos peregrina , ac novella quaedam inferre auribus vestris , sciatis nos nequaquam nova aliqua attulisse , sed , antiqua omnia , etiam eadem ipsamet , quae per dei ministros ab initio fuerunt edita , quaeque scimus vel in salvationem vestram , vel damnationem graviorem , vos agnituros in eternum . . de quibus tamen non negligimus vos commonefacere , & per submonitionem expergefacere , siquidem nil dicere , quod non dictum prius , tiamsi nos haud piget , attamen tutum est vobis qui , prae nimia incogitatione , ac inanimadvertentia , vel id ipsum quod notitis ( vere dicam ) ignoratis . . quae quidem si in eadem luce ac eod●m spiritu sinceritatis , quocum scripta fuerint , ab aliquibus pelegantur , vel me scripsisse , vel vos legisse nequaquam paenitebit . . sin minus , ac si malignitatis & inimicitiae spiritum amicus hic sermo salutis vestrae in vobis exstimularit , ita ut ignominiosam ( potius quam salutiferam auscultationem ) a vobis repulsam patietur , satis mihi placebit in hoc opere me deo placuisse , ac purum esse sanguinis animarum vestrarum , ac vos tandem memineritis ( etiam si sera nimis , non absque poenitentia tamen . ) vos fuisse a deo monitos . per animarum vestrarum amicum , anglicanum , sam. fisher. non amo ( piscator ) nec possum dicere quare ? hoc tantum possum dicere non amo te . si nescis cur non ? dicam tibi quare ? ( sacerdos ) in promptu causa e. t ; et quia vere amo te . exeo , cum multis aliis , ex . orbe , ut in orbe piscator ictus , laesus , amicusei , piscilegens quoscunque bonos in vasa , at in ipsum infernum abjiciens triste , malum que malos . tupetis exitium , tibimet petis ipse ruinam , ventosus ventis verba , utivela , dedis : interdico tibi , rapiens te exigne , ut amicus , sum tibi veridicus , tuque inimicus eris . piscator verus vere est nam piscis amator , sed piscatorem piscis amare queat ? per samuelem piscatorem , per pisc-amatorem laesum . ( fisher ) i love thee not , yet know not why ? love thee i can't , were i therefore to dy : know'st thou not why ( o priest ) thou lov'st not me ? the case is cleare , 't is because i love thee : out of the world into 't , with more , i 'm sent , a fisher ( wrong'd ) of men , to cry repent ; gath'ring in vessells all good fish , but bad casting forth into th' pit , that lake so sad ; thou seek'st thine own perdition puff't in mind , yield'st up thy whiffling words , like sayl's to th' wind , in love i seek to save thee from that fire , tell thee the truth , for this thou' rt fild with ire ; fishers that catch men thus ( though friends to th' fish ) from them , they wish well , can't have one good wish . sam fisher wellwisher to all men . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e * magistracy we own , and , for conscience sake , ●hereto are subject , as an ordinance of god , and for this cause have we at all times paid tribute . custom , exc●se , and assessements , and all o●her dues thereto belonging , that we may live a godly and quiet life under their goverment , wheniever god calls thereto . for to peace are we called with all men , and that we seek , and can freely contribute to the magistrates power , that bears the sword for that end : but out of warrs we are redeem'd , and may neither learn , nor teach warrs any more : so it is not for saving our many , nor in contempt of any authority set over us , that we have hitherto refused to raise : armes with , or against any power , since we were a people ; for the mony we give to him wh●se superscription it bears , but our lives and consciences we give up to god alone . and what ever we suffer , a killing instrument we may neither form nor bear against any of gods creation ; for he that is our saviour from all our enemies , leads us to save mens lives , and not to destroy . * which shewes , against that late toy that john tombs hath put forth in proof of some swearing now ( which is scarely worth any further answer , yet is answered by richard hubberthorn ) that what swearing was then allowed of ( as before a ruler it then was , to end a strife among men , who are yet in strife ) is now unlawful among his saints , who are redeemed out of strife , and the rest of those fleshly works , which it is one of , gal. . nor doth john tombs's insisting on the greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thes. . . adde a jot to his proof ; for howbeit it is ordinarily us'd to signifie to adjure or bind one by oath , yet ( being as some suppose , of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to confine , or ( as some ) of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a bound or limit ) it originally signifies to bind , limit , confine , oblige any way , by word or promise , as well as oath : and j. t. confessing pauls charge in that place , and those , tim . . tim. . . to be alike , therein confuses himself however : for the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there used , are no more then to engage before some witness ( god or man ) or solemnly to command or charge , and not to swear one , and cannot be taken so strictly , as to adjure , though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be taken in the moderate sense , i.e. any way to oblige , as well as in that rigid way of swearing . and as for his saying 〈◊〉 is a particile of swearing , i say it is not necessarily so , but oft of affirming onely , as quidem , profecto , truly , verily , &c. and however , where paul uses it , cor. . . he does not swear , ( as j.t. divines he did ) for sith he , and all confesse none are to swear by any but god alone ; pauls swearing there ( had it been an oath ) had been unlawfull , it being not by god , but by his , and the corinthians rejoycing . * what works , wagings of war and fallings out have formerly been between r. b. and j. t. may be seen no farther off then in that self same foresaid book of r. b's . own putting forth ( to the slashing of his own back soundly ( in that particular ) with that rod of hi● own making ) wherein these two foes fall into such fraternall fellowship , as to knit themselves into one foe-ship against us , to the contents of which book ( after all those denominations of reverend brother that passe between them in the epistles of it ) is 〈◊〉 not only a catalogue of j. t 's books against that foresaid tradition , which r. b. b●angles for , but among the rest , that of felo de se , being j. t 's collection of . arguments against infant baptism out of r. b's . own disputations for it . * witnesse blomes book of sundry slanders and calumnies against the qua. ( stoln out of t. d's . story books and some others ) answered already by r. h. dedicated by blome to the king ; with as strong desires of our suppression , as there are in it long false tales of our transgression . * who is not inferiour in flouting as it , to that their creature of the clergyes creating , into those course conceits , and scur●ilous scoffings at it , viz. francis duke , master of that ordinary or house , ordinarily called hell , next to west-minster hall in the pallace yard , who in his very dately extant pl●ce of prate against the quakers , stiles the light within , an antichrist in villanies surmounting all antichrists , that have done villanously , p. . a lousie christ , a vermin bread of an addle brain , p. . and the quakers being led by the light into the lords rest , so as not so much as to think their own thoughts , nor speak their own words , a stinking idoll ( forsooth ) p . and store more of such sordid stuff , as stinks among sober men , which i f●bear to name , geo. whitehe●● having allready so soberly answered it . notes for div a -e * fanatici sunt erroribus & stultitia hisce diebus notissimi , quos in primis hic aggredimur : j.o. ad lectorem . the qua. are in th●se daies most notoriously known by their errours , and foolishness , whom we here ( that is in his latine labours ) do principa●ly encounter . * non quaerit angulos , premi haud supprimi potest . * so thou stilest them thy self in this epistle , and that as fitly as may be ; for howbeit thou barest as broad sails as thou couldst , yet thy tackling was so lax and loosed , that thou couldst not well strengthen thy mast , nor arrive at the cape of thy vain hope , without shrewd shipwrack , as to that false faith thou d●fendest , or else the qua. would not have so encreas'd there ever since . * witness one juncture , more notable then the rest , in the second daies work , wherein g.w. had the serpents head in such a string , as would have led him away captive , but that the whole seed , and generation of vipers then present , with one joynt consent , would have violently broke up the meeting , rather then g.w. should proceed to utter a word more , and so rescued t.d. at that time from his hands . * which as brief as 't was , was t●o long by one loud lye that was told in it , viz. that i was engaged for by l.h. to be there , which was not so , for l.h. only did me word of it , and laid it before me , but laid nothing on me , so much as by way of desire of me to be there , nor did i ingage any way at all to him that i would . * the more 〈◊〉 for thee , that thou art no more ashamed at them , considering the whole score of dirty rank ones , ranked , and reckoned up , and laid at thy door , as brats of thy own patronizing , at the end of g.ws. book . * cum turpis & inhonesta sit hominum sententia dubiae ac incertae significationis vocibus ludere , strophis ac fucis imp●sturam facere , ipsam non palam verbis consutis , & consareloqui , eam mangonizare , ●●n●scicinatis silium sermonitus obtente connihil magis cavere , quamebrare , telligant , nec●intelligant ne inu● . * that god offers salvation to those he intends it not . that david was not in a condemned but justified esta●e when guilty of adultery and murder , &c. * hear , hear , hear the word of the lord o ye mountains and inhabitants of the earth , the day , even the day of his visitation is upon your heads , for ye have chosen the way which is not good ; wherefore assemble your selves together ( o ye strong oakes ) that the lord might pour upon your heads his indignation , for deceit and hypocrisie the lords soul abhors . as sure as the lord overturned them that went before you , so sure will the lord overturn you . * for de te fabu●a , thou art the said ( unkind ) kinsman thou tel'st this remarkable tale on . mr. tho. foxton iurate , ● tho. barber , cooper . mr. tho. foxton , iurate , tho. barber , cooper . iohn boys esq mr. ch. nichols , mr. th. foxton , &c. * where also other qu. have been in the service of truth , as j. lough who died in prison there ; j. parrot who is in prison therestill ; and john stubs with whom i went thither . * and so i said to t.f. and t.b. if any , who was writing by a candle in the night , will needs have his candle burning by him , when the sun is risen on him , and write by that , though there were no need of it , i would not blow it out . * for thus t. d. argues of me , or else what makes this passage about ordinances amongst and in the very midst of his argument●tive matter , by which he would prove against me the charg of popery ? * see edward burrowes book . * fanaticos non esse perfectos neque ad christum in gloria adductos nobis testimonio sunt illorum me●dacia , f●audes , selera , hypoctisis ; ijs vero qui immunes se●esse ab his omnibus alisque peccaris , vel levissunis , impudenter glorian●ur , punitiones et incarcerationes , quas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sua sibi ultro accersunt , de quibus muli britur quiritantux , esse debeant . i. o. exer. . sect. . * which i have written more largely of some years since in the last part of my , book of baby-baptisme stild an i-sacerdotisme . * hen. oxenden i. b●ys * na●h . barry . tho. seyliard . charles nicols * contraria ratio , thou shouldst have said , for par ratio is not affirmed by me for the merit of true good and real evil . * see cor. . . i laboured more abundantly then they all , yet not i , but the grace of christ in me . so gal. . , . i live unto god , i am dead to the law , crucified with christ , yet i live , yet not i , but christ in me , and the life i now live is by faith , &c. so cor. . . christ speaking in me , is not weak , but mighty . * or m●n of the earth ( f●r so edom signifies of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ) * i deny not that . [a] which i had not . [b] which is true . [c] which i never said [d] which was not so , but in some doctrines , then some ministers of the ( so cal'd ) reformed churches . [e] as wel i might , sith i knew it was false . [f] which is false if by ours thou mean ●●at men work out of christ , but too true for t.d. to disprove , if by our works he means , as he does , such as christ works in men . [g] alias famish the popes bag and expell his baggage . * caelum non animum mutant qui trans mare currunt . notes for div a -e * for our disputation is of things that are ( formaliter ) what they are , and are said to be , of what is really and truly what it s call'd , de scripturae nomine proprio , ex. . s. , . non fictitio & imaginario , nec figurativo ; of the proper name of the scripture , formally so taken , and not of feigned , falsly imagined , and meer metaphorical denominations . † chro. . . dan. . . luke . . rom. . . cor. . . † fanatici sunt erroribus & stultitia hisce diebus notissimi , quos imprimis hic agg edinur . n●mo autem post homine natos , aeque ac ego desirasse censendus esset , si ipsos scriptis hisce redargucre statuerim , cum nibilo plus sermonem illum quo hic utimur intelligant , quám nos aliquories inconditum illum verborum sonum omni sano sensu vacuum , quo ipsi non tantum umnibus altis , sed & ipsi sibi in dicendo obitrepese videntur , mente pe●cipere possiinus . sintsene omnes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , neque ultra linguam vernaculam lapiant . * ex. sect. . fanaticos nostrates qui à tremore quo se in sacris agitari ipsi fibi fingunt , aut reapse vi mali spiritûs agitantur , vulgò trepidantes seu quakers vocantur , respicit quaestionis pars posterior , quae est de scripturae nomine proprio . * condemnatur horrida illa vociferatio qua per vicos urbis , agros arque templa quae vocant illum cognoscite dominum rob●ant fanatici . i. o. ex. . s. . that horrid tone wherein the fanaticks sound it out throw the city suburbs , fields , and temples , as they call them , that , know the lord. * epist. ded. pag. . . . pag. . second title page , ad lectorem , ex. . s. . s. . s. . s . s. . s. . s. . ex. . s. . s. . s ult fanatici nostrates , fanatici 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hisce fanaticis , insano cujusvis fanatici nebulonis strepitu . * iuniorum instructioni quibus in sacrarum literarum studium ingenii a cumen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 intendentibus passim hosce corvos sequi , testaque lutoque , nee animus ost , nec otium specimen hoc novi fanaticismi refutati , qui 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 comitatus nullubi non grassatur , dicatum est . ad lectorem . * qui cotis usurpat officium reddit saltem alios acutos , ipse licet interim planè hebes est & obtusus . † quis expedivit psittaco suum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? picasque docuit verba nostra conari ? magister artis ingeniique largitor venter , docuit negatas artifex sequi voces . per. * viz. neque sane usque adeo obrutuit humanum genus , ut semper praestigiatores istos spirituales , qui 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contra manifesta christi praecepta , sanctorum omnium exempla communia rationis istius quâ homines sumus principia & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , posthabitâ aeternae salutis curâ in caecitate & ignorantia voluntatis divinae propriique officii , negligentiâ supiná mortalium ullos idololatriae illecebi is illaqueatos detinere conantur ferre velit . † de scripturae nomi●e proprie contra fanaticos nostrates , &c. huic hominum generi non satis e●set iiscum congredi & sociari , qui praeteritis seculis convitia sacris scripturis intentàrunt , atque omnia in illas injecta opprobria suo calculo approbare , &c. ex. . s. , . praemium strenuae contra scripturarum perfectionem oppositioni debitum nemini mortalium sibi praereptum vellent , &c. quod deus placuerit provinciam hanc adversus verbi sui hostes demicandi nobis indignis delegare , ex. . s. . * quicquid judaei , quicquid ponteficii in opprobrium scripturarum dicere unquam sustinuerunt , id omne horrendo percussi scotomate & dicunt & asseverant impuri homunciones , librorum titulos horrendos pudet referre , ex. . s. . gregis hujus precipui errones & corryphaei hic , illic impie & blasphemé in sacras scripturas provocati dixerunts quae sit communis eorum sententia ex libris ab ipsis editis , &c. s. . * declarationem hanc voluntatis divinae à spiritu christi , qui scriptoribus ejus adfuit , proces●isse proftientur , &c. pro verâ & indubitatâ mentis divinae declaratione agnoscant bactenus rectè quidem , &c. ex. . sect. . si res eorum secundum vota successissent , eas ( scripturas ) dudum penitus rejecissent , &c. s. . negant ( scripturas ) immotam , perfectam , stabilem cultus divini — regulam esse , &c. sect. . abs eo spiritu ( christi ) ducti — opus non habent authoritate scripturarum , &c. sect. . haec summa horum hominum sententia , sect. . * inter se distant , judaei , pontifices & fanatici , ex. . s. . qui in rebus aliis omnibus diversissimè sentiant in hanc blasphemiam conspirent omnes , s. . perpetuo invicem digladiantur pontificii atque fanatici 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ex. . s. . internecioni se mutuo devovent , s. . caeterum non iisdem rationibus ducti , sed illi pro traditionibus , bi pro enthusiasmis atque revelationibus suis , tanquam pro aris & focis contendentes , atque ita non secus ac sampsonis vulpeculae obversis caudis ignitas faces in segetes ecclesiae ferentes , cuncti amicissimè è loco suo sacram scripturam deturbate aggrediuntur , s. . eam a loco suo in ecclesia depellere satagunt , iisdem vestigiis insistunt panatici nostrates , quibus ad nequitiam hanc viam patefecerunt qui inter pontificios spirituales dicuntur , ex. . s. , . adversus verbi sui hostes , ex. . s. . contra quosvis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , s. . * as j.o. does in his late shuttling sheet of answers to some queries about tythes . * ex. . s. . non tantum scripturas omni suâ authoritate spoliare easque è loco suo mouere , sed & ipsum christum personalitate suâ atque divinâ existentiâ exuere hoc unico stratagemate intendunt & conantur . * de nomine scripturae proprio contra fanaticos nostrates , &c. i am to encounter our fanaticks at present about the proper name of the scripture ; the part of the question which is about the proper name of the scripture respects the quakers , ex. . s. . * ipsum verbum dei omnem ejus usum quod attinet , penitus respuere , &c. ex. . s. . * apparet eos omni usu , authoritate ac perfectione sacras scripturas spoliare , ex. . s. . nullt dubium esse possit quin si res eorum secundum vota successissent , eas dudum penitùs rejectssent , ex. s. . utinam deleantur inquiunt fanaticorum nonnulli , ut omnes ad lumen illud quod in iis est attenderent magis , ex. s. . * ex. . s. . enimvero si omnium seculorum , omnium qui unquam extiterunt christianorum experientia , si ea quae ipsi vident , spectant , audiunt quotidie , ullius apud eos ponderis essent aut momenti , usum , necessitatem , fructum interpretationis scripturarum per solennem verbi praedicationem , expositionem viva voce , aut scriptis factam , negare verecundarentur : spectemus utique utrumque gregem , cùm illum qui verbo licet fruantur , interpretatione ejus destitutus est , tum illum qui una cum verbo dei , aliis etiam mediis cultus divini , quae in verbi interpretatione plurimum consistant fruitur , si modo ex fructibus arbor dignoscenda fit , bona apparebit illa , quae istiusinodi fructus cientiae dei tulit , quibus ubique progerminavit legitima scripturae interpretatio . * for every prophet did not write down either all he said in his dayes , nor all that which in writing is set down of his seeings , and sayings , doings & sufferings with his own hands ; witnesse jeremiah for whom baruch wrote : and who wrote the latter end of the books of moses , which ye dream he wrote every little and iota of himself , deut. . to the end ? did he write of his own death and burial , and of israels mourning for him , after he was dead ? * pag. . so ex. . s. . post completum quem vacant ejus canonem nullae novae revelationes circa fidem cōmunem sanctorum aut dei cultum aut expectandae sint aut admittendae credimus & prositemur . * it seems then thy word of god ( so called ) may be , and was corrupted ( i.e. ) the scripture , secundum te , who sometimes sayest it can't be corrupted in its original text , and is not to this day : but were it the word of god indeed , as that is , it speaks of , and as thou sayest it self is , it were incorruptible indeed . * mark , the salvation of god was common to all men then , however it s now impropriated by the personal electionists unto themselves . * see i. o's . words , pag. . hebraea volumina nec in vnica dictione corrupta invenies ; citing pagn . and matth. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and pag. . . speaking of the bare copies of the scripture , doth not our saviour himself affirm ( quoth he ) of the word that then was among the jewes , that not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sof it should passe away or perish ? where let not the points but the consonants themselves and their apices be intended or alluded to in that expression , yet of that word , which was translated by the . according to this hypothesis , not only letters and tittles , but words , and that many are concluded to be lost ; and say i , speaking not of translations ( all of which i.o. seeks to prove deficient , from pag. . to pag. . see it at large in above pages together ) but of the original text it self , which he pleads the entirenesse and integrity of , without loss to a tittle , that upon this hypothesis , that all the fore-mentioned books are lost , not only points and consonants , and apices and letters , and tittles and iotaes , but words , & that many , yea books , and that many , are contrary to his arch-assertion , concluded to be utterly lost . * though this i consesse , which makes little for j.o. but much against him , where he talks , as one that meddles with what 's out of his reach , of gods putting every word so into their mouths , and speaking by them in every tittle they wrote , that somethings in pauls writings he ( as himself sayes ) spake ; and not the lord , cor. . . * though i affirm it is not from laodicea , were it truly rendered , being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , col. . . which arias montanus renders more rightly , quae est laodicensium , or quae est laodiceae , the epistle which belongs to the laodiceans , or is of , or to laodicea . * quid vero cum iis agamus , qui adeo infeliciter stupidi sunt ut nulla ratione nec experientia , &c. dicat quod quisque volet ex hâc opinione non dimovebimur . ex. . s. . * hoc n●men ( viz. ) verbum dei proprium ) sibi vendi●at scriptura ; i. o. ex. ● . s. , , , , . * for shall we think ( quoth he ) pag. . and so on many pages , &c. * pag. . whilst they keep the scripture , we shall never want weapons out of their own armory for their destruction ; like the philistims , they carry the weapon that will serve to cut off their own heads , quoth i o. of the iewes , and i of himself , and his fellow students . * quamvis enim ex justo dei iudicio sermo eis non est unicus , imo ita sunt inter se confusi ut vix intelligant alter sermonem alterius , tamen aedificandae turri é cujus fastigio , fastu quodam giǵanteo , signa inferant adversa lucis perfectioni solio illi dei ( literae scilicet ) in terris suis , summâ consentione unâ omnes incumbant ; see i.o. ex. . s. . * see pag. . the distemper pretended that there are corruptions he allen the text by varieties from the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is dreadful , and such as it may well prove mortal to the sacred truth of scripture . * how contrary is this to j o. pa. . who saith , nor let men please themselves with the pretended facility of learning the hebrew language without points and accents , and not the language only , but the true and proper reading the distinction of it in the bible . * ex. . s. . discipline cujusuis perfectio consistit in relatione ad finem , eaque perfecta habenda sit quae sufficiens est respecta sinis sui proximi , ea vero imperfecta quae finem propositum assequi potis non est . † let t.d. consider this quotation of two ca●dinals by i. o. who would argue me to be a papist for saying a truth which he said bellarmine wrote , whom i never cited at all ; which t.d. will hardly conclude i. o. to be a papist , though he quote two popish authors , whereof bellarmine himsel● is one , and makes use of their testimony against his fellow protestants , whom he fights against : but me mutire ●efas , and if i mention but any truth that any papists hold though i , cite them not , yet it s enough to subject me to suspicion of popery , among our senselesse suspecters . truthl . fle thinkers , and groundlesly confident conjecturers ; but no marvail , fi●h ( as the proverb is ) among such evil surmisers , some men , whose brothers will never say they are theeves . may more securely steal a ●orse , then some true men peep o're the hedge . † tr. . chap. . s. . † ex. . s. ● † tr. ● . ch. . s † if transcribers might go of . times from the original , in transeribing a translation , why not once or twice so as to corrupt it in more then tittles in transcriptions ? no quoth i. o , credat apella . notes for div a -e * quae nam sit tua ipsius sententia de ha●questione , an scriptura 〈◊〉 verbum dei ? hand facile quis declarabit ; preterquam enim quod tocum non convenias , ita inepic ●rque odiose in explicandis animi , misensibus garris , dubiae & incertae significati●nis vocibus ludis , peregrinis quibu●dam phrasibus , quae imperitos homines , aut re●eant , aut illi●ia● , nihil sani sensus , aut quod ab ullis sa●e 〈◊〉 intelligi possit , continentibus , uteris , ui multo facili●o●r sit argumenta ●ua pristigare quammente● percipere . imo cum ●●pis , & inh●nesta sit tua sen●entia , quae emuleatè exposita remo●i● strophis atque sucis , ipsae sibi apud prebos omnes , etiam non palam improbos satis esset ad exiti●m datâ operâ qu● imposturam facia● vel ipsam non palam eloqueris vel verbi : i. á consutis & consa●cinatis , ut nihil pene omnino significent , eam mangonizas atque ita consilium sermonibus obtenebrans nihil mâgis cavere videris , quam ne intelligaris . * t. . c. . s. . † t. . c. . s. . * t. . c. . s. , , , , . † which witness of god the word is , ●● confess , & thou needst not prove it : but that word is not the scripture , but that the scripture writes of . * vvhich witness of men for god as mov'd , the scripture i● , and no more , as will be seen an●n . * mark how he intermingles these two terms in his discourses t. . c. . s. , , , . * mark what j. o. here ascribes to the light in the conscience , the law in the heart , concerning which he makes so strange sometimes , that he will not believe there 's any such thing at all : nescio quod lumen , &c. † which word , that god magnifies over all his name , is christ jesus , whom god hath highly exalted , and given him a name above every name that is named , of things in heaven , earth , and under the earth , that at his name every knee should bow , phil. . and not the scriptures , unless j.o. will say the scriptures are exalted above christ , and so make god a lyar . † and that was by the truths opponents , at the disputation at ashford for infants baptism , on the . of the . month , by the heathen called july , . who in the preface to their own falsly called true account thereof extant , with my answer to it , confessing not onely their own defects , and their zeal of infant-baptism to be more then their abilities to maintain it ; but also the weakness of their arguments on its behalf , fall a beseeching people in their charity to cover the weakness of them . * whereupon some prophesies were stil'd , the burden of the word of the lord. * in linguisistis quibus scripta est , verba disposita sunt per spiritum sanctum neque arbitrio scriptorum relicta . * ex. . s. . inter media quibus ad sui cognitionem revelandam deus utitur sacra scriptura non tantum longissime omnibus aliis antecellit sed fines salutares quod attinet unicum est seu singulare . * pag. . but we are in a way and business wherein all things are carried to and fro by conjectures , and p. . all things here are uncertain , uncertain whether any such things were done , uncertain who are intended by the sopherim , ezra , and his companions most probably . all that i know of the various readings of the oriental or babylonian , occidental & palestine jews is that they first appeared in bombergius his bible under the care of f. pratensis . i wish those that know more would inform me better ; to professe my ignorance , i know no ne that do give account of their original , in my present haste , i cannot enquire after them , and such ike stuff , so canis festinans caecos parit catulos . * here 's a deal of divinity as deep as the dung-hill it self , where it s more fit to stand then in divine labors of drs. in divini●y , that pretend to be the chiefe labourers in the plain honest gospel , and servants to that simplicity that is in jesus , † as the feel thinketh , so the clock clinketh . * for so saith i.o. etenim si in sentent● am hanc , cujus patrocinium proviribus suscip● mus , de plenitudine scripturarum lubenter dis● cederent , utque omnis cujuseunque tandem gener● in religione controversia verbo dei ( i.e. scriptura secundum te ) sistatur consentirent , erro● res isti te●errimi , quorum causa lucem scripturae fugientes , andabatarum more in tenebri● demicant , atque uti olim ammonitae , moabitae , & habitatores montis seiris , bellum adversus populum dei suscipientes internecioni semutuo devovent , ad lumen solis hujus manifestim ovane scerent . ex. . s. . . * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * per spiritum aut lumen internum enthusiasmum afflatum caelastem , colloquia angelica ficta vel facta , &c. ex. . s. , . , , . * heb. . . with heb. . . where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , are in effect same . o si oujusque lumen privatum sit regula deo obedientiam prae standi tum tot regulas habe●nus , quot homines ut unicus est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divinus , gal. . . eph. . . isa. . . sacram scripturam hanc regulam esse abundèantea demonstratum est . ex. . s. . * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * non tantum ingeneratio fidei sed , et in eâ dum spiritum hunc ducimus aedifitio finis est scripturae . * vbi verbum dei locis paene innumeris praedicari promulgari , multiplicari , recipi enarratur sanctissima ista veritas , seu materia scrip● : rarum , non scriptura forma●iter considirata tenditur ex. . s. . in corde nostro est scriptura non formaliter quatenus scripta sed quatenus divinam veritatemcontinet atque exhibet non respectu literae scriptae sed veritatis divinae in eâ contentae . * si cujusque lumen privatum sit regulatum tot regulas habemus qust homines , at unicus est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divinis . * intermediae quibus ad sui cognitionem revelandam deus utitur sacra scriptura non tantum longissime omnibus aliis antecellit sed fines salutares quod attinet unicum est & singulare . ex. . s. . * christ , the light , and his spirit . * colloquia angelica ficta vel facta . * so that it s but just and meet to re●or : thy own tauntings of the qu. ex. . s. . upon thy self , lia inepic atque ediose in explicando animi u●i sensis garris dubie & incertae significationis vocibits indis , ut quaenum sit ●eusis atque perfectione scriptururum sine uliâ revelatione p●r spiritum & lumen internum non facile quis declarabit , ut multo sacilius sit argumentum tuum profligare quem monrem percipere &c. * see j.o. p. , , , . t. d p. of his . pamph. * see j.o. p. . ex. . s. . t.d. p. , . , , & . of his . pamp. * nullius luminis interni ●juscunque tandem quam vis fit salutare , is usus aut finis est , ut ei tanquam duci viae nostrae & regulae attendere debeamus , fed , &c * see how j. o. even teaches men so ill minded to criticize on the scriptures , and turn them easily as a nose of wax which way soever they are minded to make them stand in his epistle dedicatory p. , , , , . it is , quoth he , if a man have a minde to criticize , and mend the bible , but trying what the word or words he fixes on will make by the commutation of letters , &c. it is but saying the scribe was mistaken in the likeness of letters , or affinity of ●ound , &c. and then it s done , and various lections arise , and corruptions come into his originals in more then tittles and iota's , one iota or tittle , of which yet [ quoth he blindly , speaking of the bare bones of the letter , t. . c. . s. . as written ] shall never change or pass away . * remember this yemy two antagonists , j.o. who sayst , christus sub nulla consideratione lumen salutare omnibus & singulis indulsit , christ under no consideration hath vouch safed saving light to all and every man , ex. . . . how ye limit god in his goodness and grace ; and t.d. who , p . of thy first pamph. sayest , salvation is by god offered to more then to whom t is intended . and j.o. ex. . s. . the light is sufficient to leave excuseless not to save . * see the book of ordination of priests and deacons . * though t.d. told a. p. before many people at sandwich , that 't is corrupt nature by which the heathen do the things contained in the law at a.p. informed me . * ex. . s. . deus sacrae scriptur author , &c. perfe●ti● scrip●●r aruminn●lla aliâ re consi●●eré potest quam insufficientiâ suâ respectu finis , &c. * fa●si●imum est s●ripturam ●um in hoc mundo haeremus respectis nostri ●ecum suum sinem obtinereaut obtinere posse ●on enim tantū ingeneratio sidei sed & in eâ dis-●spiritum hunc ducimus aedificatio , s●ni●est scripturae , quando adducimur ad christum in gloria cessabit scripturaeusus praesentistatui accommodat us , quin●tiam ipsa fides quatenùss in verbo dei 〈◊〉 to ni●ebatur , abulibitur . * for the letter still is to send from it self to the light , so was moses letter a school-master to direct to another for the life , moses sent his disciples to christ , saying , a prophet shall the lord raise to you like to me , of whom i am but a shadow , who writes the law of god in the fleshly tables of the heart , as ye have it handed , ministred to you from me in outward gravings in tables of stone , and writings with pen and inke , &c. him shall you hear in all things whatever he sayes , whoever hear● not him , though he seem to hear me , and to be zealous of my outward writings , must be cut off from among his people ; and he that truly hears me , will go to him , for i write of him , iohn . john baptist sent from himself to christ the lamb of god for the taking away the sin , and to the true light he bare witness of , that enlightneth every man that comes into the world , confessing himself , and his ministry must decrease before the increasings of the other . so the apostles writings and letters were not to state them as the standard , to call men thereto as the only canon , but to keep men a ! way looking to the lord the light it self , of which use our ministry and writings now are , that by the light they may come to life , and not go from christ the light , whose words are spirit and life , who hath the word of eternal life , to either letter or any thing else , to keep them to the hearing of his own voice , as his sheep do , to take heed to his word of prophesie , which is the testimony of jesus in the heart as to a light shining in the dark place of the heart till the day dawn & day-star arise in the heart , to which purpose was the letter written ; and that excellent voice sent , which said to them of the beloved son hear him ; and all the apostles drift was to drive the jews from moses ; thou teachest all every where to forsake moses saying , they must not circumcise children , nor walk after those customes , the letter required as a shadow for a time : and indeed their epistles point all at that one faith , truth , way , life , passover , baptism , circumcision , supper , body , lord , spirit , rule , whereas if ●e steer as by the foundation , rule , standard , &c ● by their letter , which they never intended to sta●● ( as the foundation , then there must be more r●les , faiths , forms , baptisms , suppers , viz. the outward letter and literal observations , which mere once used and ordained as types for a time , and the spiritual substantial ones , to which , sending us from the wri●ings of the carnal ordinances they speak of , they advise and call to . * so they call themselves at this day thorow england , scotland and ireland , witness hard●ess wallers proclamation , & gener. monks & john lawsons , & t●e cities late congratulations together about the mercy of god toward this their israel in recalling the parliment , called the rump , which if they do right , may prosper , but if they persist yet in their professed resolution to stablish the popes pay on their preachers , contrary to their oaths to extirpate popery root and branch , which they have sworn the nation to endeavour also the ex●irpation of , and to persecute such as cannot be perjured together with them , they have not long yet to subsist without a whirlewind from the lord ( as fast and safe as they seem to sit ) falling with pain upon their heads , for the mouth of the lord hath spoken it . * no more is is yours . * and we the same in the instance of your selves . * there we leave you , for we own gods word to all , and alwayes living , but the letter never was living , but alwayes a dead letter , though killing , but the spirit only living and giving life . * and as ye have the letter which is but as the ark that keeps the testament , but not it , to your further ruine . * mark how i.o. crowds , as oft he doth elsewhere , these two terms together in one ●lause , viz. the scripture the word of god , as it were by app●si●ion , as if it were given him for granted that the scripture , and the word of god , were as to name and thing one and the same , while ●is the very question denied by us , and to bee proved by him that the scripture is the word of god , and so here is a peece of petitio principii in it , or begging of the question ; and were it an interrogation , as t is a position , and asks , is not the scripture , the word of god light ●it were fallacia plurium interrogationum , whereby the sophister asks one question of two thing● at once , which is true of one , false if affirm●d of the other , for we deny not the word of god to be the word of god , nor the word of god to be the light , but we deny the scripture or letter ●o be either the word of god , or the light . * where take notice of at least iotaes and tittles to be altered in your perfect copies from which , sayest thou , not one apex nor iota can fail . verbum illud quod in nobis est est v●rbum fidei quod apostoli praedicarunt , rom . . nihil autem praedicabant quod non scriptum suit per mosen & prophetas , imo verbum illudscriptum esse eo loci , v . asserit apostolus . . scripture est prope nos in ●re & corde nostro , no● respectu literae scriptae , non formaliter quatenus scripta , sed veritatis divinae s●● quatenus continet atque exhibet divinam veritatem . * note how i.o. all along makes the scripture and the word of god so synomous , that from the participation of the same nature and properties he judges them to be all one , and that the names of the one , viz. the w●rld of god , & the light , are the very proper names of the other , i.e. of the letter , and where he expresses himself by these termes the word of god , the light , the power of god in his treatises and theses ( except in the place where he speaks of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) it must still bee understood of the scripture . * for novum testamentum , i e. christi lux , spiritus , verbum fidei , est in ●etere velatum vetus i. e. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , litera scripta , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 scriptura ad extra , vel dei ipsius digito scripta in tabulis externis lapideis , quae fuit mera , licet vera figura , umbra , imago scripturae ad intra , per dei spiritum in internis tabulis cordis carneis , est in novo re● latum , cor. . * which quatenur containing the divine truth is the utmost that i.o. is capable to say for the scriptures being called by that name of the word of god , as that nomen proprium , that proper name , he disputes for on its behalf , and for its being within in the heart , ex. . s. , , & s . . which is to say just nothing to his proper purpose , and indeed to unsay all that ever he sayes both before and after , in his proofs of the word of god to be the proper name of the scriptures ; for if it be not , nor is to be called the vvord of god formally considered , as a vvriting , but only as contaning , and declaring of the truth , lights and vvord , then it is not properly , nor is to be called the vvord of god properly at all . * spiritus dei gravissime damnat & rejicit omnia additamenta ad verbum scripturarum , cujuscunque tandem generis sunt , ac speciatim omnes istas vias & modos cognitionis dei , accum eo communionis , quos ja●titant fanatici , &c. * locust as hasce cum primum ex fumo put●iprodierunt &c. speaking of the qua. saith i.o. ex. . s. . illud ad quod nunquam , nusqnam à de● mitti●ur , ut inde , seu ex ●o discamus sui cognitionem & voluntatis suae , vel ut inde directionem in officio nostro sumamus , illud non porest essefit●ei cognisionir , doctrinae aus obedientiae nostra regula , canon , princip●●m , 〈◊〉 ; s●ita ●●qui 〈◊〉 , directorium . at ver● ad lumen internum seu spiritum internum privatum , &c. nunquam , nu●quam à d●● ablegamur , ergo , &c. proferant fanatici velunum sacrae scripturae locum , &c. si antem de su● santum loquantur mendaces sunt , &c. * joh. . , , . . . . . , . act. . , . . isa. . . . joh. . ● , , ● cor. . . pet. . . rom. . . * ex. . s. . enthusiasmorum omne genus incertitudo , &c. quod om●i modo atque respectu est incertum imo incertissimum , fallax five , &c. * ex . s. . sacram scripturam saepius ●o nomine à sancto spiritu indigitaricuivi●eam vel leviter inspicienti facile apparebit . * ex. . s. . locis paenè innumeris , &c. ubiverbum dei praedicari promulgari recipienarratur non scriptura formaliter considerata intenditur . miilles ferè mentio fa●●● ve●●i d●i●●que prae●●●ationis , promulgationis , ac receptionis ejusdem , neque iism hocis scriptura●● intendi●agnoscere 〈◊〉 . * aiunt lumen hoc esse eejusdem authoritatis cum verbo dei scripto , i.e. ( secundum te ) cum scriptura i.o. ex. . . notes for div a -e * ioel . , . act. . , . luke . . act. . . gal. . . * the grand senior , & oldest master of arts in most universities & countries . * isa. . , , , . , , . isa. . . . . hos. . , . hos. . , , . zach. . , , , , , , , . rev. . , , , , , . &c. isa. . . . . ioh. . . ioh. . . * t.i.c. . s. , . for speaking there of the testimony that the spirit beares in the scripture , of the scripture , that it is the word of god , which in all the scripture is not to be found , for neither the spirit in the scripture , nor out of it neither , or in the hearts of any , doth testifie that false thing , that the bare letter or scripture is gods word , nor doth the scripture say any such thing of its single self , but whatever spirit saith the letter is the word of god in any heart , is the lying spirit and not the spirit of god. * col. . . acts , . * why dost thou not write it holy sprit ? but then perhaps it would not sound so well to thy turn , for many idiotish people are ready to think , as if the holy ghost were some more extraordinary matter , than the spirit ( if thou dost not thy self , whereupon perhaps thou so often writest in this phrase the holy ghost ) ghost is that terrible word which the ghostly fathers have used to fright poor simple people with in their liturgies , talkings , treatises and translations , it sounding somewhat more hideously then the word spirit , or else i know no reason why they render not the greek word by that english word spirit in one place as well as another , for its 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all along in your originall copies , as well where they did translate it ghost and wind , as they do in one place , john . . as well as where they translate it spirit ; but though it were an uncouth sound to say ghost in most places where the word spirit stands ; as it were strange to say , the ghost of god witnesseth to our ghosts , &c. the ghost lusteth against the flesh , and the flesh against the ghost , &c. such as are led of the ghost of god , are his sons , &c. the ghost helpeth our infirmities , &c et sic de caeteris ) yet where the epethite holy is joyned to it , it is more dreadfull , and enought to frighten priest-befool'dpeople , and some of our ghostly men too , to say holy ghost and so mostly where holy is with it , it so stands in your translations . * the selfe same that in the flesh was an advocate or intercessour to god for his people in the spirit , is their advocate or intercessour to godward in them : compare john . with john . . where , though translated comforter in one place , and advocate in another , yet the greek word is the same ( i.e. ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in both . so rom. . the spirit helps our infirmities , and prayeth for us , and maketh intercession . * neque uspiam litera esse mortua dicitur ; occidit quidem , sed ideo viva est . compare the scriptures where all these are used promiscuously , as one in the originals , and in the translations also . ex. . s. . nobis testimonio sunt illorum mendacia , fraudes scelera , hypocrisis fanaticos non esse perfectos ; iis vero — punitiones & incarcerationes , quas akatastasia sua sibi ultro accersunt , de quibus muliebriter quiritantur , esse debeant . * multa ferent anni verientes commoda secum . * though the cobler and his last oft troubles them more then all the rest , and makes the doctors cry out , ne sutor ultracrepidam , let the taylor keep to his shop-board ( say they ) and the shoomaker to his last . so d. featly d. d. and some others . * errorum causa scripturam ( quia lucem scripture ) fugientes andabatarum more in tenebris d●micant , at● ; utiolim hammouitae , moabitae , & habita●ores montis sei●is bellum adv . sus , pepulum dei suscipientes intern●cioni se mutuo d●voven● ; & ad lumen solis hujus ( viz. ) lucis in corde & conscientia cui testatur scriptura confestim evan●scent , i. o. ex. . s. . * non iisdem rationibus ducti sedilli pro traditinitus , bi pro scripture tra●scrip●ionibus , translationibus , interpretationilus ac imaginationibus suis , tonquam pro aris f●cisque contendentes ; atque ita ●on secus ac sampsonis vulpecular , obversis candis ignitas faces in segetes ecclesiae ferentes , cuncti amicissime e loco suo sacram lucem , sanctum spiritum de qui●us scriptura loquitur detu●bare aggrediuntur , ex. . s. . * this is spoken of some baptists , who now preach some doctrines of the qua. for which they once cast them out of their assemblies . * opportet mendacem esse memorem . * though in the antitypical sense 't is true enough , that some men not turning to it , being deprived of it at last , for not improving that measure of it , more or less , which as a talent they were instrusted to trade withall at first , mat. . become , as to the things of god , as blind and bruitish , and short of what those men are that arise out of the fall by it , and beastial image of satan , into the image of god again , who at first created them upright , as the bruit beasts of the field , which are figures of man in the fall , as to the things of the animal , or natural man , a●● s●●rt of him . * negant lumen hoc naturale esse aut ita dici debere , sed a christo & spiritu christi esse . * ex. . s : : * see baxt. epist. the principal work of papists and quakers is to take off people from the holy scripture , and from the reformed faithful ministers . * of like sort with those of underhill , and blome , in the fanatick history , who with ground of shame enough ( if he were not past it ) having found a legend of lyes , collected out of t. ds. and others books against the qua. by he knows not whom , dedicates it , together with his own haman-like desires , to have them forcibly supprest , unto the king. * vt cunque ei attendatur i : o : ex. : s : . * absit blasphemia , far be from us that blasphemy once to think that god lies . * which is a state different from a non posse peccare . * tins shews you that men may have a gift of grace , and yet receive it in vain . * gradus non variant naturam rei . * ex. . s. . futetrur quidem christum lucent esse mundi , omniumque adeo hominum , quia lux illa scriptura sacra fulgens est sufficiens ad perfundendum omnes homines luce salutari ad quos per dei providentiam pervenerit . * ex. . s. . lumen & illuminationem , quarum hie loot mentio facta est , spirituales esse at que ad renovationem gratiae , non naturales at que i● a●ad creationem pertinere ; quo sensu enim h●mines tenebrae dicuntur , eo etiam illuminarr , aliter aequi'voca esset apostoli oratio at , homines spiritualiter fuisse teneb●as extra controversiam est . * observe here how these men contradict one another ; i. o. sayes that clause , coming into the world , relates to the light , so as to say , the true light coming into the world enlightens every man : i. t. sayes nay , coming into the world relates to man , so as to say , every man coming into the world , see how they concur together by the ears among themselves . * merae tenebrae & cecitas , quoth i. o. of it . * merae tenebrae & cecitas , quoth i. o. of it . for it is impossible but that what shows drunkenness to be evil , must needs shew sobriety to be good . * ex. . s. . directionem nostram in cognitione dei , obedientia ei praestanda ita ut tandem voluntatem ejus facientes , salutem eternam ac ipsius fruitionem assequamur , hunc finem immediatum datioscripturarum atque . adeo ipsarum scripturarum esse contendimus : cum vero disciplinae cujusvis perfectio consistat in relatione ad finem , caque perfecta habenda sit qua sufficiens est respectu finis sui proximi , ea vero imperfecta quae finem propositum assequi potis non est , perfectio scripturarum in nulla alia re consistere potest quam in sufficientia sua respectu finis sui proprii , qui est instructio hominum &c. vt salutem aeternam assequantur : hoc sensu eam perfectissimamasserimus : ex. . s. . cessabit scripturae usus praesenti stat ui accomodatus . ex. . s. . falsissimum est sacram scripturam , dum in hoc mundo haeremus respectu nostri totum sinem suum obtinere aut obtinere posse . * j.o. ex. . s. . fanaticos non esse perfectos nobis testimonio sunt illorum mendacia , fraudes , scelera , hypocrisis ; iis vero , qui immunes se esse ab his omnibus aliisque peccatis vel levissimis impudenter gloriantur , punitiones & incarcerationes esse debeant . * memorandum that to a. p. t.d. said 't is corrupt nature by which the heathen rom. . are said to do the things contained in the law : and here he takes the actions of corrupt natures for some of the things that are to be mortified : it should seem then the heathen [ if it be an action of corrupt nature to do the things of the law must mortify their deeds done in obedience to the law , thus it must be according to t. d's . principles . * witness gideon twice together before he could believe isarel should be delivered from median by his hand for which the lord was not angry with him , judg. . . . and ahar also , with whom the lord was angry because he would not ask a sign when god bad him , isa. . . . . . . * where the participle [ perfected ] is construed with the word [ just men ] not [ spirits ] pneumasi dikaion teteleiomenon : notes for div a -e * yet t.d. most strenuously stands to it , that so it is p. . pam. saying the apostle by his own righteousnesse understands his personal conformity to the law ; do you think that the righteousness paul calls his own was not christs ? had he any righteousness which he had not received ? that righteousness which was in the apostle was wrought in him by christ , as an efficient cause . * for are there not two righteousnesses [ of christ ? ] quoth he p. . ) and they serve for two different ends ; the one for our justification ( meaning that which was inhaerent in that single person of old at ierusalem ) this gives us a right to the inheritance of the saints in light ; the other for our sanctification ( meaning that he works in his saints ) th●● though filthyrags ) [ mark ] makes us meet for the possession . * true characters all along of our present priesthood , and schoolmen , & universities , de quibus haec fabula were narrator . lux autem haec seu intelligendi facultas , in eam quae maere naturalis est , earnque quae circa res civiles versatur , atque illam quae res spirituales omniaque alia in ordine ad sinem supernaturalem , spiritualem et ultimum discernit , disposcitur : lumen autem hoc intermum spirituale , seu facultas intelligendi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , varium &c. * lumen hoc internum omnibus commune , utcunque ei attendatur , non est ullo respectu salutare , sed in rebus omnibus divinis , sinem ultimum quod attinet , merae tenebrae et caecitas . * fx. . s. , . figmentum horrendum lumen internum omnibus commune , &c. de fictitio isto sive lumine sive verbo interno et christo imaginario &c. ex. . s. . fanatici nostrales enthusiasmos nescio quos jactitantes lucē internā atque infallibilitatem inde emergentem , &c. et s. . lu●en nescio quod , cui nihil commune est cum scripturis , tanquā doctorem infallibilem sequi , et in omnibus obedire . s. . lumen illud internū res est omnino ficta atque commentum crasse excogitatum . s. . nihil opus est ullâ revelatione per spiritum out lumen internum , enthusiasmum , &c. incerta periculosa inutilia ea omnia media ad cognoscendum deum atque voluntatem ejus , ideoque rejicienda atque detestanda esse quae simulant fanatici apparet . s. omnes istas vias et modos cognitionis dei , ac cum co communionis , quos jactitant fanatici , rejici ac damnari a spiritu sancto opparet , presertim angelorum colloquia revelationes alienas a verbo scripto , deinde spiritum fanaticorū internū omnibus commune . s. . ad lumen internum seu spiritum internum privatum nusquam nunquam a deo ablegamur . s. . enthusiasmorum omne genus fallax , incertum , incertissimum , &c. ex. . s. . lux nictans neque è tenebru perniciosissimis emergens : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 deo quopiam melius . s. . qualitas nescio quae divina , &c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , verè nihil . si quis seu quaerit quare ? seu queritur quod hîc loci non curātur vel verbōrum qualitas , vel syllabōrum quantitas . sciat dehinc nos rusticos nec magisnec minus cūraturos vel variètatem verbōrum , vel quantītatē nostrōrum syllābīrum , quam videmus vos acâdēmīros parum cūrāre vel verītātem verbōrum , vel qualītātem vostrōrum syllog smōrum . notes for div a -e (a) act. . , (b) . ioh. . . . . (c) rom. . , . ad . [e] ioh. . . . , . . . [f] psa. . , , , , . ● [g] esa. . , . . . . . . . acts . . [h] luk. . , , . [i] ioh. . , , , , , . [k] acts . , . [l] rom. . [m] rom. . , . ioh. . . psal. . , . act. . . rom. . . (n) mat. . . gal. . . (o) rom. . . col. . . (p) pro. . . (q) heb. . (r) jer. . . (s) ioh. . , . (t) jam. . . (v) luk. . , . [w] gal. . ad . (a) act. . , (b) . ioh. . . . . (c) rom. . , . ad . [d] iohn . . [e] ioh. . . , , . . . [f] psa. . , , , , . ● [g] esa. . , . . . . . . . acts . . [h] luk. . , , . [i] ioh. . , , , , , . [k] acts . , . [l] rom. . [m] rom. . , . ioh. . . psal. . , . act. . . rom. . . (n) mat. . . gal. . . (o) rom. . . c●l . . . (p) pro. . . (q) heb. . (r) jer. . . (s) ioh. . , . (t) jam. . . (v) luk. . , . [w] gal. . . ad . [x] eph. . .